Print Page - Haydn's Haus

Title: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 06, 2007, 04:15:04 PM

It will be hard to recreate one of my favorite threads from the old forum, so the heck with it, we shall expand "The Corner" into an entire house! :)

Since we have essentially reviewed every symphony recording ever made, let's put that back for a bit (really, no more London Symphonies recs for a while, please ::) ) and talk about some of the more offbeat stuff, like divertimentos and the chamber music that ISN'T string quartets (or even piano trios!). Or even the non-cello concertos, for that matter. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on April 06, 2007, 04:57:41 PM

I will start my friend. For all those that do not have the following winds recording, I am sure the the following disc is one you will enjoy....and one that you may want to purchase while it remains available. I know I have posted this before, but I believe it deserves another look:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00000K2UB.01-AK2BFM54U2G6G._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA130_.jpg)

Divertimento for 6 instruments in D major, H. 2/13
and
Divertimento (Fieldparthie) for 6 instruments in E flat major, H. 2/12

along with:

Partita for 2 clarinets, 2 horns, & 2 bassoons in C minor
Composed by Franz Krommer

You may sample here:

http://www.amazon.com/Music-Winds-Franz-Joseph-Haydn/dp/B00000K2UB/ref=sr_1_32/102-7134284-2880939?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1175907245&sr=1-32

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 06, 2007, 05:12:15 PM

Excellent start, Bill. I have that disk too, not only is the Haydn very good, but that c minor sextet is a great intro to Krommer for those few who are unfamiliar with him! ;)

I'm am not just overrun with Haydn divertimentos, although I have a few. The difficulty in recommending is that many of them are OOP. :'( One that is OOP, but still frequently available in Amazon Marketplace or eBay is on SONY, called "Haydn 'The Natural Horn'". It features L'Archibudelli with Ab Koster on horn, and the contents are:

Hob deest (means "not appearing in Hoboken", BTW) - Cassation in D for 4 Horns, Violin, Viola & Bass
Hob II:21 - Divertimento in Eb for 2 Horns and String Quartet (a very popular combination in those days)
Hob VIId:3 Concerto in D for Horn, 2 Oboes & Strings
Hob IV:5 Divertimento à tre in Eb for Horn, Violin & Cello (yup, that's a Horn Trio)
Hob II:22 Divertimento in D for 2 Horns & String Quartet

This is a super disk for lovers of the natural horn and Haydn in general. :)

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000002BZN.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on April 06, 2007, 05:21:22 PM

I have been very pleased with these two volumes below that you recommended Gurn (from a four volume set) as played by the Vienna Philharmonia Trio. They have now reached a "low sock" status at Arkive Music, so I should hurry and get the first two volumes, which are at special order status, which may mean they are OOP.

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/119986.jpg)

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/78/787718.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: hornteacher on April 06, 2007, 05:46:51 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 06, 2007, 05:12:15 PM
Excellent start, Bill. I have that disk too, not only is the Haydn very good, but that c minor sextet is a great intro to Krommer for those few who are unfamiliar with him! ;)

I'm am not just overrun with Haydn divertimentos, although I have a few. The difficulty in recommending is that many of them are OOP. :'( One that is OOP, but still frequently available in Amazon Marketplace or eBay is on SONY, called "Haydn 'The Natural Horn'". It features L'Archibudelli with Ab Koster on horn, and the contents are:

Hob deest (means "not appearing in Hoboken", BTW) - Cassation in D for 4 Horns, Violin, Viola & Bass
Hob II:21 - Divertimento in Eb for 2 Horns and String Quartet (a very popular combination in those days)
Hob VIId:3 Concerto in D for Horn, 2 Oboes & Strings
Hob IV:5 Divertimento à tre in Eb for Horn, Violin & Cello (yup, that's a Horn Trio)
Hob II:22 Divertimento in D for 2 Horns & String Quartet

This is a super disk for lovers of the natural horn and Haydn in general. :)

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000002BZN.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg)

8)

Wow, I will check this one out.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 06, 2007, 05:55:28 PM

Quote from: hornteacher on April 06, 2007, 05:51:09 PM
ArkivMusic has it too. Thanks.

Ah yes, I see. It is one of their reissues. Those are very tempting, pity they don't have liner notes, but otherwise they are a great chance to get OOP stuff you would never see otherwise. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on April 07, 2007, 02:56:23 AM

Got this recently on Bunny's recommendation.
Marvelous, high quality Haydn, in a superb, colourful performance - that goes almost without saying.. :D
Recommended!

Q

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51N32FFRW4L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Harry on April 07, 2007, 05:57:39 AM

Well to give my little knowledge to this thread, may I recommend the SQ by the Buchbinder Quartet on Brilliant, now in their fourth volume. And it is really rather good. Not only are they cheap, but also well recorded and performed.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 07, 2007, 06:06:43 AM

Quote from: Que on April 07, 2007, 02:56:23 AM
Got this recently on Bunny's recommendation.
Marvelous, high quality Haydn, in a superb, colourful performance - that goes almost without saying.. :D
Recommended!

Q

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51N32FFRW4L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Q,
I have 6 of those on this disk:

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/38/385690.JPG)

Klocker et al play them very nicely.

Reasons I didn't get the disk you referenced:
1 The 6 on this one are positively by Haydn, the other 2 are unsure, although probably authentic.

2 The CPO disk is available everywhere, the SONY is OOP and hard to find (it's $35 US right now at Amazon)

3 I didn't know about that one until after I found this one.

Alright, call me bitter. :'( Although I will say this, the Klocker disk really IS very good, I play it often. Notturnos are divertimentos after all, and these make for a very nice diversion indeed. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 07, 2007, 06:08:35 AM

Quote from: D Minor on April 07, 2007, 04:25:49 AM
Can I discuss Haydn's masses in this thread, or is that off-limits?

How about the Baryton Octets instead? I understand that 1 of them is in d minor... ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Harry on April 07, 2007, 06:12:37 AM

Quote from: Bill on April 07, 2007, 06:03:46 AM
Any news of yet Harry on the complete Haydn set like they put together for Mozart and Bach?

No, Bill, its a bit low fire with Brilliant, the new releases are not that many, these last 6 months or so.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 07, 2007, 07:38:57 AM

Quote from: Que on April 07, 2007, 07:34:50 AM
Yes Gurn, to my dissapointment - though that was to be expected...
I decided to just pay the fine of € 23 ($31) and forget about it quickly! ;D
And I must say - no regrets at all, but I'm sure the Klocker on cpo is fine too - also a favourite of others on the forum.

Q

You are much braver than I am :-[ I deny myself at those rates, despite my yearnings. :-\

Another example: On Ricercar - Baryton Octets Vol. II - Excellent recording, highly recommended. Also, of course, OOP, but I found a very nice used copy for pennies! Vol. I can be had for $80 US. I don't think so. :(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on April 07, 2007, 07:45:16 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 07, 2007, 07:38:57 AM
You are much braver than I am :-[ I deny myself at those rates, despite my yearnings. :-\

Another example: On Ricercar - Baryton Octets Vol. II - Excellent recording, highly recommended. Also, of course, OOP, but I found a very nice used copy for pennies! Vol. I can be had for $80 US. I don't think so. :(

8)

And this one I believe as well:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B0002O38SU.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg)

Though now it is only $14 from handful of sellers on Amazon (reg. price: $23).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on April 07, 2007, 07:54:03 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 07, 2007, 07:38:57 AM
You are much braver than I am :-[ I deny myself at those rates, despite my yearnings. :-\

Another example: On Ricercar - Baryton Octets Vol. II - Excellent recording, highly recommended. Also, of course, OOP, but I found a very nice used copy for pennies! Vol. I can be had for $80 US. I don't think so. :(

8)

Gurn, please tell me: are those performances good?
Because I believe they have been reissued as a 2CD set!
€20 at jpc, that's not bad for a small (tiny ;D) label...

Q

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/4350781.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 07, 2007, 07:58:38 AM

Quote from: Que on April 07, 2007, 07:54:03 AM
Gurn, please tell me: are those performances good?
Because I believe they have been reissued as a 2CD set!
€20 at jpc, that's not bad for a small (tiny ;D) label...

Q

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/4350781.jpg)

Hah! Reissued, eh? Anyway, yes, they are very good. The true sound and beauty of the baryton must be hard to capture on recordings, since even in the various trios I have it tends to be hit and miss, but these octets are really quite well done in that regard.

JPC, let's see, 20€ for the disks + 15€ for S & H..... hey, maybe they will be released over here. I can be patient. ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Harry on April 23, 2007, 11:43:00 AM

Urgent call for Andy! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Harry on April 23, 2007, 11:47:17 AM

Althought I would recommend these symphonies under Fischer, still I have my reservations.
Same goes for Dorati.
I would take a HIP recording any time, if I could get swift Menuets, and proper allegro's and Presto's. Haydn did write Presto because he meant Presto.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: BorisG on April 23, 2007, 03:27:35 PM

I have some reservations also. That listeners should quit Haydn symphonies after the Oxford.

C-o-o-k-i-e-c-u-t-t-i-n-g.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 23, 2007, 03:48:59 PM

The Fischer set is an excellent value if you want a full cycle (and I do, of course). I also have the Nimbus (rather than the same set on Brilliant) and the liner notes are worth having, they are really quite handy.

Of course I would rather have a HIP set, but there isn't one, so why complain about it? You can piece together (at great expense) a HIP cycle that has about 3/4 of the symphonies, but it isn't the same, is it? You get one conductor's (and one band's) take on the whole cycle here, and it is a pretty darn good one too. The London set was recorded first, and as such is probably the weakest. Which is not the same as saying "it sucks". But there is a lot of competition out there in that repertoire, and if you are bothered by that, you can always upgrade just those very nicely.

And the sound is good too, I might add, which hasn't been my experience with the few Dorati disks I have (6, 7 & 8 and the Paris Symphonies).

In short, if it is your intent to purchase a full cycle, you won't do better than this. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 23, 2007, 04:41:37 PM

Quote from: Steve on April 23, 2007, 10:40:35 AM
I came across this awhile ago, and just today it popped up in my amazon reccommendation list. Any thoughts or comments? It's about time I returned to Herr Haydn and these wonderful symphones. Any info on 94 or 104 would be doubly appreciated.............

Steve - let me pose a question since your thread beings w/ 'Haydn's London Symphonies...' - can we assume that recommendations on these works (whether 'modern' or HIP) is the main purpose of this thread? If so, great! I have one set of the London Symphonies w/ Colin Davis (a couple of bargin Philips Duos) - no big problem for a 'modern' set; but would like to have more recommendations, esp. potential HIP performances which seem pretty non-existent (have plenty of HIP discs of earlier symphonies, though); so, what's the verdict? Thanks - :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Steve on April 23, 2007, 06:02:23 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on April 23, 2007, 04:41:37 PM
Steve - let me pose a question since your thread beings w/ 'Haydn's London Symphonies...' - can we assume that recommendations on these works (whether 'modern' or HIP) is the main purpose of this thread? If so, great! I have one set of the London Symphonies w/ Colin Davis (a couple of bargin Philips Duos) - no big problem for a 'modern' set; but would like to have more recommendations, esp. potential HIP performances which seem pretty non-existent (have plenty of HIP discs of earlier symphonies, though); so, what's the verdict? Thanks - :D

Right now, I'm looking for excellent HIP recordings of these London Symphonies. The Adam Fischer was just the first that I am going to review. While comments specific to this recording are welcome, other HIP recommendations would be appreciated as well. Thanks for your comment. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 23, 2007, 06:20:11 PM

Quote from: Steve on April 23, 2007, 06:02:23 PM
Right now, I'm looking for excellent HIP recordings of these London Symphonies. The Adam Fischer was just the first that I am going to review. While comments specific to this recording are welcome, other HIP recommendations would be appreciated as well. Thanks for your comment. :)

Fischer is not HIP, in fact he ridicules HIP in the liner notes to the complete set! :D

You know I don't think I've heard any HIP recordings of the London Symphonies. I've heard Bruggen in the Paris Symphonies, but nothing HIP in the Londons.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 23, 2007, 06:25:11 PM

I have 94, 95 & 101-104 with Collegum Musicum 90 / Hickox. I will give them another listen (it's been 6 months or so) and get back to you on it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bunny on April 23, 2007, 07:17:04 PM

Quote from: DavidW on April 23, 2007, 06:20:11 PM
Fischer is not HIP, in fact he ridicules HIP in the liner notes to the complete set! :D

You know I don't think I've heard any HIP recordings of the London Symphonies. I've heard Bruggen in the Paris Symphonies, but nothing HIP in the Londons.

Sigiswald Kuijken has recorded them with La Petite Bande. It's a Japanese release, but it's available at Amazon and ArkivMusic. I was listening to them the other day and they are very satisfying.

Christopher Hogwood also recorded some of them with the Academy of Ancient Music. I'm sure that more will be coming out soon as 2009 is the 300th anniversary of Haydn's death.

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000EBDCUA.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_V43651372_SS500_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on April 23, 2007, 07:22:06 PM

The London symphonies were among the first that Fischer and his band recorded. It took them a few years to find their groove, and for Nimbus to figure out how to record them in that hall. Or at least so say the reviews I've read; I haven't made it that far in the set. :-[

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Harry on April 23, 2007, 10:57:16 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 23, 2007, 03:48:59 PM
The Fischer set is an excellent value if you want a full cycle (and I do, of course). I also have the Nimbus (rather than the same set on Brilliant) and the liner notes are worth having, they are really quite handy.

Of course I would rather have a HIP set, but there isn't one, so why complain about it? You can piece together (at great expense) a HIP cycle that has about 3/4 of the symphonies, but it isn't the same, is it? You get one conductor's (and one band's) take on the whole cycle here, and it is a pretty darn good one too. The London set was recorded first, and as such is probably the weakest. Which is not the same as saying "it sucks". But there is a lot of competition out there in that repertoire, and if you are bothered by that, you can always upgrade just those very nicely.

And the sound is good too, I might add, which hasn't been my experience with the few Dorati disks I have (6, 7 & 8 and the Paris Symphonies).

In short, if it is your intent to purchase a full cycle, you won't do better than this. :)

8)

I never said my friend that it sucks or was not excellent value, since I have the complete set I am satisfied with it, but as you said yourself the London set was first recorded, and is in my view the weakest, plodding minuets and allegro/Presto that are doing the same. Effect scoring is what Fischer does at the price of the musical integrity IMO. And the recordings are not that good as in the later sessions. So I felt a little complaining in its place, and certainly if it comes to a HIP recording, complaining helps to digest the absence. :) And you are right about the Dorati set, the sound is not always that good too.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Harry on April 23, 2007, 10:59:21 PM

Quote from: DavidW on April 23, 2007, 06:20:11 PM
Fischer is not HIP, in fact he ridicules HIP in the liner notes to the complete set! :D

You know I don't think I've heard any HIP recordings of the London Symphonies. I've heard Bruggen in the Paris Symphonies, but nothing HIP in the Londons.

Fischer later changed this view though! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: RebLem on April 24, 2007, 12:14:17 AM

Quote from: Bunny on April 23, 2007, 07:17:04 PM
Sigiswald Kuijken has recorded them with La Petite Bande. It's a Japanese release, but it's available at Amazon and ArkivMusic. I was listening to them the other day and they are very satisfying.

At $61.49 for 4 CDs, the ArkivMusic price, it damn well ought to be satisfying. Szell/Cleveland recorded the first 6 Londons, and they were issued on CD, but there are hard to find these days. I would recommend the Jochum set as a generally satisfying and interpretively moderate set. Another good set of some of them is a Klemperer box; this is BIG, old fashioned, full orchestra Haydn, but he does divide 1st and 2nd violins, which is a big point in their favor. And his Sym 102 will just make you jump out of your seat.

I haven't heard the Solti set. Has anyone here heard it? I am thinking about maybe getting it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on April 24, 2007, 12:34:08 AM

I was thinking of buying the complete Fischer set from Brilliant, but I was put off by the reviews of the London symphonies. They were
the first ones in the series to be recorded, and the engineers had not mastered the reverberant acoustics of the concert room. The result is a fuzzy sound. Also, I think nothing special in the interpretations.

Isn't the Bruggen set HIP ? I though he used old instruments. I don't have the set and have seen mixed reviews for it. I believe
that it was recorded live from concert performances. But this set may be the only answer if HIP is the overriding criterion.

I have the Harnoncourt set. Not HIP, but extremely well recorded with everything nice and clear, transparent and balanced. The interpretations are generally excellent ...... Harnoncourt is incapable of being dull and I really find him in-tune with this witty, sophisticated, beautiful and often dramatic music. I would say that there are no weak links in this set ..... Harnoncourt occasionally goes a little over the top, but I get a lot of pleasure from each and every disc, and I also discovered a lot. I would say that numbers 100 and 102 receive exceptional performances, but the rest are close behind.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Harry on April 24, 2007, 12:40:58 AM

Don't make the mistake of condemning the Fischer box on Brilliant.
First of all the London symphonies are fine. The reverberation is not as bad, and no fuzzy sound, just Fischer blowing the orchestra to somewhat big proportions. Interpretations are on the whole better as any others I heard, including Dorati.
And the rest of the set is excellent, the best there is IMO. Also the sound!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on April 24, 2007, 02:12:26 AM

Hi Harry,

You have the Fischer set? What would you say are the high and low points? Can you make any comparisons with other versions?
It costs less than 100 euros for ALL the symphonies, and I almost bought it.
I am happy with my sets of Paris and London symphonies, so I am really looking for the best versions of the middle-period symphs,
say mid-20's up to 81.
I have the full Dorati set, but on LP. A comparison between Fischer and Dorati would be great.

It's my birthday soon, so I need to start lobbying soon ...... ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Harry on April 24, 2007, 02:30:34 AM

Quote from: alkan on April 24, 2007, 02:12:26 AM
Hi Harry,

You have the Fischer set? What would you say are the high and low points? Can you make any comparisons with other versions?
It costs less than 100 euros for ALL the symphonies, and I almost bought it.
I am happy with my sets of Paris and London symphonies, so I am really looking for the best versions of the middle-period symphs,
say mid-20's up to 81.
I have the full Dorati set, but on LP. A comparison between Fischer and Dorati would be great.

It's my birthday soon, so I need to start lobbying soon ...... ;D

Lets say from Symphony No. 1-88, there is no problem at all, the best performances you could wish, both in sound and in interpretation!
My principal concern is with 89-103, but the problem is not that big, that I would not buy it again.
Not sound, because that is good! But those were recorded first, and Fischer was clearly searching the right mould. You can hear that mostly in the menuets, very stiff upper collar, as with all the menuets from Dorati. And he tends to take the Allegro's and Presto to slow, not always mind, but he does. Furthermore, he just wants to be grand in the name symphonies, and that tends to sound somewhat overblown.
So reading your wishes, Fischer would do just fine.

That said the Fischer set is a must for all Haydn admirers, and I would not like to be without it.
Have the Dorati set too, and that is also a must for me!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on April 24, 2007, 03:01:00 AM

Thanks Harry.

Since my point of reference is Dorati, would you say that Fischer's approach is similar or dissimilar (and if the latter, in which ways)?

Finally, an impossible question, but please try to answer ...... if you could only keep one out of Dorati and Fischer for 1-88 (I'm not too worried after this because I have several very satisfactory versions in the 89-104 zone, except, strangely no 103), which would it be ??

Best wishes

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Grazioso on April 24, 2007, 03:22:09 AM

For the London symphonies, try Jochum's DG set:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/31SQ720M4BL._AA240_.jpg)

I was skeptical at first, assuming it might be plodding big-band Haydn. After having listened to the first disc so far, I can say my assumption was wrong. A big band, yes, but Jochum fully captures the verve, humor, and grace of Haydn's writing, and when Haydn writes "presto" or "vivace", Jochum fully obliges. These are sprightly allegros indeed. I'm eager to hear the rest of the set.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Harry on April 24, 2007, 03:28:11 AM

Quote from: alkan on April 24, 2007, 03:01:00 AM
Thanks Harry.

Since my point of reference is Dorati, would you say that Fischer's approach is similar or dissimilar (and if the latter, in which ways)?

Finally, an impossible question, but please try to answer ...... if you could only keep one out of Dorati and Fischer for 1-88 (I'm not too worried after this because I have several very satisfactory versions in the 89-104 zone, except, strangely no 103), which would it be ??

Best wishes

Fischers approach is similar to that of Dorati, but with three exceptions: Fischer adopts better speeds, is aware of the historical music practice, and finds more details in the score as Dorati does. Not dissimilar I would say, but a more tighter regime and discipline.

I definitively would keep Fischer. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Harry on April 24, 2007, 03:30:32 AM

Quote from: alkan on April 24, 2007, 02:12:26 AM
Hi Harry,

You have the Fischer set? What would you say are the high and low points? Can you make any comparisons with other versions?
It costs less than 100 euros for ALL the symphonies, and I almost bought it.
I am happy with my sets of Paris and London symphonies, so I am really looking for the best versions of the middle-period symphs,
say mid-20's up to 81.
I have the full Dorati set, but on LP. A comparison between Fischer and Dorati would be great.

It's my birthday soon, so I need to start lobbying soon ...... ;D

I bought the Fischer set for 50 euro's.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on April 24, 2007, 03:42:17 AM

Harry, where did you find the Fischer set for 50 euros ??

Grazioso, the Jochum London's are one of the best sets and have a lot of enthusiastic followers. I've heard some on the radio and as you say, they are full of life and spirit

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Harry on April 24, 2007, 03:46:44 AM

In my local drugstore called Kruidvat and here, but slightly more expensive, 58,00 euro's

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/4897680/rk/classic/rsk/hitlist (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/4897680/rk/classic/rsk/hitlist)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on April 24, 2007, 03:52:17 AM

Harry, thanks !

Hmmmm ..... 59 euros plus 8 for postage (I am in France) ....... 67 euros ...... not bad. 65 euro-cents per symphony !!

I am very tempted ....... :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2007, 03:55:41 AM

Quote from: Harry on April 23, 2007, 10:57:16 PM
I never said my friend that it sucks or was not excellent value, since I have the complete set I am satisfied with it, but as you said yourself the London set was first recorded, and is in my view the weakest, plodding minuets and allegro/Presto that are doing the same. Effect scoring is what Fischer does at the price of the musical integrity IMO. And the recordings are not that good as in the later sessions. So I felt a little complaining in its place, and certainly if it comes to a HIP recording, complaining helps to digest the absence. :) And you are right about the Dorati set, the sound is not always that good too.

Harry,
It may have seemed that I was directing that at you, but I wasn't. This set has been discussed in depth here before, and several people have said that the London's suck so bad that they wouldn't have the set. Which is not only untrue, but most unfortunate, since, as I said, they not only don't suck, they are merely the weakest in the set, and then, only in comparison to all the fine versions around.

I would love to see a complete HIP cycle, but it seems that every effort ends up beached. :'(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Harry on April 24, 2007, 04:29:06 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2007, 03:55:41 AM
Harry,
It may have seemed that I was directing that at you, but I wasn't. This set has been discussed in depth here before, and several people have said that the London's suck so bad that they wouldn't have the set. Which is not only untrue, but most unfortunate, since, as I said, they not only don't suck, they are merely the weakest in the set, and then, only in comparison to all the fine versions around.

I would love to see a complete HIP cycle, but it seems that every effort ends up beached. :'(

8)

O, dear, well my mistake, I am sorry. I thought your arrows were directed at me. Glad it is not so. ;D
And we are in one mind about the Fischer set, that's good too! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bunny on April 24, 2007, 06:04:15 AM

Quote from: RebLem on April 24, 2007, 12:14:17 AM
At $61.49 for 4 CDs, the ArkivMusic price, it damn well ought to be satisfying. Szell/Cleveland recorded the first 6 Londons, and they were issued on CD, but there are hard to find these days. I would recommend the Jochum set as a generally satisfying and interpretively moderate set. Another good set of some of them is a Klemperer box; this is BIG, old fashioned, full orchestra Haydn, but he does divide 1st and 2nd violins, which is a big point in their favor. And his Sym 102 will just make you jump out of your seat.

I haven't heard the Solti set. Has anyone here heard it? I am thinking about maybe getting it.

Ouch! The price is high because it's a Japanese import. The price will probably stay high because the dollar is so devalued now. I found it at Amazon for quite a bit less when I bought it. It's still there starting at about $42.00 which while more than I paid, is still quite a bit less than Arkiv.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Steve on April 24, 2007, 06:06:30 AM

Glad to hear that the Fischer set is receiving praise here on the forum. After some sampling, I've decided to add it to my shopping cart today. Harry, you've reccomended the Dorati set - in your opinion, would it be helpful to have both the Fischer and Dorati recordings, or would one suffice? Are you familiar with the Jochum? I generally enjoy his renditions, and so I will be looking to aqiuire those also. Anyone have a tip on where to find the Jochum/Dorati renditions? :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 24, 2007, 06:11:13 AM

Alkan, Harnoncourt is what I have too, it's very nice. :)

What I want to hear is transcriptions for chamber ensembles... has any recordings been made for that quirky angle? :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Harry on April 24, 2007, 06:20:35 AM

Quote from: Steve on April 24, 2007, 06:06:30 AM
Glad to hear that the Fischer set is receiving praise here on the forum. After some sampling, I've decided to add it to my shopping cart today. Harry, you've reccomended the Dorati set - in your opinion, would it be helpful to have both the Fischer and Dorati recordings, or would one suffice? Are you familiar with the Jochum? I generally enjoy his renditions, and so I will be looking to aqiuire those also. Anyone have a tip on where to find the Jochum/Dorati renditions? :)

If you have the Fischer, you do not need the Dorati! :) I found that both sets have their merit, but I bought the Dorati first, long time ago, and then the Fischer came along for a measly 50 euro's, so I bought that too, and never regretted it!
The big band Haydn's are not my cup of tea, so other posters will answer that my friend.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on April 24, 2007, 06:45:35 AM

DavidW, I do remember that there was a recording by the Salomon Quartet and the Academy of Ancient Music Chamber Ensemble (Archiv) of symphs 94, 100 and 104. I heard it on the radio once and it was wonderful. Unfortunately it has been OOP for years. I too would be very happy to find a copy of this. I just checked Amazon, but drew a blank.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on April 24, 2007, 06:48:57 AM

Quote from: Harry on April 23, 2007, 11:43:00 AM
Urgent call for Andy! ;D

BuyBuyBuy! Those recordings are tops for the Allegro movements alone. Not to mention the awe-inspiring slow movement of the "Miracle" Symphony.

Fischer makes boo-boos in some of the menuetti, as Harry so observantly pointed out. And overall, the Dorati set is probably superior (especially in regrd to the older symphonies and the above mentioned menuetti). But if you even like Haydn, and want to hear some extremely inspirational renditions of his Allegro movements in particular, BUY IMMEDIATELY!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on April 24, 2007, 06:50:21 AM

Quote from: BorisG on April 23, 2007, 03:27:35 PM
I have some reservations also. That listeners should quit Haydn symphonies after the Oxford.

The Miracle, Drumroll, Military, London...

riiiiiiight.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on April 24, 2007, 06:55:54 AM

Quote from: Harry on April 24, 2007, 02:30:34 AM
Lets say from Symphony No. 1-88, there is no problem at all, the best performances you could wish, both in sound and in interpretation!
My principal concern is with 89-103, but the problem is not that big, that I would not buy it again.
Not sound, because that is good! But those were recorded first, and Fischer was clearly searching the right mould. You can hear that mostly in the menuets, very stiff upper collar, as with all the menuets from Dorati. And he tends to take the Allegro's and Presto to slow, not always mind, but he does. Furthermore, he just wants to be grand in the name symphonies, and that tends to sound somewhat overblown.
So reading your wishes, Fischer would do just fine.

That said the Fischer set is a must for all Haydn admirers, and I would not like to be without it.
Have the Dorati set too, and that is also a must for me!

Agree with all Harry's feelings except on the "Miracle"s (both the misnamed no.96 as well as the autentico "Miracle", 102). You can't get better for sheer brilliance of sound throughout these two Symphonies, as well as a dazzlingly inspirational amount of depth on the slow stuff. But those qualities might not have been what Haydn was aiming for (or what Harry prefers in his Haydn interpretations, which I respect).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 24, 2007, 08:14:40 AM

Thanks Alkan, it's a shame that the recording is oop, would have been neat to hear. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on April 24, 2007, 08:21:51 AM

DavidW, yes I agree. I only heard no 94 on the radio and it sounded very much like it was arranged for SQ plus flute plus continuo.
It was quite a revelation.

I dearly wanted to buy the CD out of sheer curiosity to see what they would do for the Turkish percussion section of the Military !!!!!!

But there is always hope that it will reappear one day. Look at the Fischer set (the orginal of this thread) now re-issued by Brilliant at an incredible price ......

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jwinter on April 24, 2007, 08:27:02 AM

Quote from: RebLem on April 24, 2007, 12:14:17 AM

I haven't heard the Solti set. Has anyone here heard it? I am thinking about maybe getting it.

I have it and enjoy it quite a bit. I'm generally not a big Solti fan (I loathe his Mahler and Beethoven for example), but his Haydn is quite nice, very energetic and well-recorded. I actually prefer it to the much-touted Colin Davis set.

That said, the ones with Szell are well worth hunting down. And the Fischer set is a no brainer if it's within your budget -- the Londons are not the highlight of the set, as others have pointed out, but it's a great bargain nonetheless.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Steve on April 24, 2007, 08:36:19 AM

Well I'm pleased to hear that the Fischer comes reccomended. Seeing as it has been pointed out that the London Symphonies are a low-point in an otherwise fantastic cycle, I opted for the complete set. That does however still leave me searching for the ideal rendition of these London Symphonies. I am tempted to try and hunt down the Szell, and the Jochum does appear to be well liked here. I see the Jochum on sale for only $40 on DG . That does sound tempting. Any other comments/suggestions?

Quote from: alkan on April 24, 2007, 06:45:35 AM

DavidW, I do remember that there was a recording by the Salomon Quartet and the Academy of Ancient Music Chamber Ensemble (Archiv) of symphs 94, 100 and 104. I heard it on the radio once and it was wonderful. Unfortunately it has been OOP for years. I too would be very happy to find a copy of this. I just checked Amazon, but drew a blank.

I'd be interested in the fruits of this search. 94 and 104 are two of my favourite Haydn symphonies. I have listened to other chamber pieces with the Acadamy of Ancient Music and have been pleasantly surprised. I hope you can locate these.

Here's the Fischer Set I purchased this morning...

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B00006GA50.01._SCMZZZZZZZ_SS500_.jpg)

and here's the Jochum Set

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/31SQ720M4BL._SS500_.jpg)

Thanks.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on April 24, 2007, 08:45:26 AM

I tracked down the reference of the chamber arrangement (by Salomon himself !!) of symphs 94, 100, 101.

It is Decca, L'oiseau-Lyre 443 194-20M

Source is the Academy of Ancient Music site www.aam.co.uk

Szell is great for the early Londons but he did not record all 12. Sound quality is not state of the art, but the readings are great. My personal favourites are nos 97 and 94 ..... the horns and brass in 97 are amazing and quite startling.

I heard a few Jochum Londons on the radio and they didn't woo me away from Harnoncourt. I found some of the allegro movements a bit hard-driven and rushed.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on April 24, 2007, 08:47:18 AM

I started out with the Beecham recordings of the late Symphonies, and I've always enjoyed the performances, but been irritated by the sound.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2007, 03:52:21 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 23, 2007, 06:25:11 PM
I have 94, 95 & 101-104 with Collegum Musicum 90 / Hickox. I will give them another listen (it's been 6 months or so) and get back to you on it. :)

8)

And I am nearly finished with that lovely little project right now. These are very nice interps, the playing is upbeat and explores these 6 symphonies very nicely. Tempi are brisk, as would be expected, and the clarity of the recordings is top-notch. So there ARE at least half of the London Symphonies on period instruments, without going to Japan, and they are really very good! Amazon has them both in stock (on Chandos, BTW). Wonder if Vols. 3 & 4 are in the works?

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/415ZBKP4GDL._AA240_.jpg)
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000050432.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 25, 2007, 04:41:52 PM

Quote from: Que on April 07, 2007, 07:54:03 AM
Gurn, please tell me: are those performances good?
Because I believe they have been reissued as a 2CD set!
€20 at jpc, that's not bad for a small (tiny ;D) label...

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/4350781.jpg)

Q - sorry, coming in late to this thread (don't know why w/ one of my favorite composers!) - I have a half dozen Haydn Baryton discs, including the 2-CD set pictured - I concur w/ Gurn - go for it (which you may already have w/ a 2 wk+ delay? ;D) - Dave

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 25, 2007, 04:52:43 PM

Gurn - sorry about posting on the Piano Trios, but this 'edited' post got BURIED in the 'listening thread', and may be more appropriate here, anyway - :)

I've just gone through the first 5 discs (of 10) of the Haydn Piano Trios w/ the Van Swieten Trio - Bart van Oort on the fortepiano (after Walter, 1795) along w/ several violinists, cellists, & a flautist (3 of the pieces in the set) - all period instruments, i.e. about as HIP, as possible! As a result, the blending of the fortepiano w/ the violin & cello is phenomenal (cello going along w/ the left hand of the pianist; violin for the right hand) - doubt this 'effect' could be accomplished w/ modern instruments - these are DDD recordings made just several years ago, and on the Brilliant label!

Check out the review by David Bryson (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Piano-Trios-Complete-Box/dp/B000DZV8C6/ref=sr_1_5/103-8488946-8127043?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1177443821&sr=1-5) on Amazon; BTW, I paid about $33 for this set on the Amazon Marketplace; presently, being offered at BRO (http://www.berkshirerecordoutlet.com/cgi-bin/seek.pl?StartRow=1&QueryText=haydn+piano+trios&AndOr=AND&Meth=Some&RPP=25l) for $30! You may not want 40+ Haydn 'Piano Trios' but @ $3 a disc, what's there to lose? ;D

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/92/923371.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 25, 2007, 06:06:56 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on April 25, 2007, 04:52:43 PM
Gurn - sorry about posting on the Piano Trios, but this 'edited' post got BURIED in the 'listening thread', and may be more appropriate here, anyway - :)

I've just gone through the first 5 discs (of 10) of the Haydn Piano Trios w/ the Van Swieten Trio - Bart van Oort on the fortepiano (after Walter, 1795) along w/ several violinists, cellists, & a flautist (3 of the pieces in the set) - all period instruments, i.e. about as HIP, as possible! As a result, the blending of the fortepiano w/ the violin & cello is phenomenal (cello going along w/ the left hand of the pianist; violin for the right hand) - doubt this 'effect' could be accomplished w/ modern instruments - these are DDD recordings made just several years ago, and on the Brilliant label!

Check out the review by David Bryson (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Piano-Trios-Complete-Box/dp/B000DZV8C6/ref=sr_1_5/103-8488946-8127043?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1177443821&sr=1-5) on Amazon; BTW, I paid about $33 for this set on the Amazon Marketplace; presently, being offered at BRO (http://www.berkshirerecordoutlet.com/cgi-bin/seek.pl?StartRow=1&QueryText=haydn+piano+trios&AndOr=AND&Meth=Some&RPP=25l) for $30! You may not want 40+ Haydn 'Piano Trios' but @ $3 a disc, what's there to lose? ;D

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/92/923371.jpg)

That's more than OK, Dave, this is his Haus, after all! Perfect place for Hausmusik! :)

Luke has also been touting this set, I can't see how I can let it go by at this point. I have the BAT set already, and all the Trio 1790 disks so far (6), but really, this is too good a chance to miss. Glad you bumped this thread too, I was thinking of going hunting for it. Great minds... ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Harry on April 26, 2007, 02:53:48 AM

Quote from: SonicMan on April 25, 2007, 04:52:43 PM
Gurn - sorry about posting on the Piano Trios, but this 'edited' post got BURIED in the 'listening thread', and may be more appropriate here, anyway - :)

I've just gone through the first 5 discs (of 10) of the Haydn Piano Trios w/ the Van Swieten Trio - Bart van Oort on the fortepiano (after Walter, 1795) along w/ several violinists, cellists, & a flautist (3 of the pieces in the set) - all period instruments, i.e. about as HIP, as possible! As a result, the blending of the fortepiano w/ the violin & cello is phenomenal (cello going along w/ the left hand of the pianist; violin for the right hand) - doubt this 'effect' could be accomplished w/ modern instruments - these are DDD recordings made just several years ago, and on the Brilliant label!

Check out the review by David Bryson (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Piano-Trios-Complete-Box/dp/B000DZV8C6/ref=sr_1_5/103-8488946-8127043?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1177443821&sr=1-5) on Amazon; BTW, I paid about $33 for this set on the Amazon Marketplace; presently, being offered at BRO (http://www.berkshirerecordoutlet.com/cgi-bin/seek.pl?StartRow=1&QueryText=haydn+piano+trios&AndOr=AND&Meth=Some&RPP=25l) for $30! You may not want 40+ Haydn 'Piano Trios' but @ $3 a disc, what's there to lose? ;D

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/92/923371.jpg)

Well I ordered it too me Dave! :)
I had it on loan by a friend of mine, but its so good, that for 22,00 euro's this is a must, for all Haydn lovers.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 26, 2007, 04:01:40 AM

Quote from: Harry on April 26, 2007, 02:53:48 AM
Well I ordered it too me Dave! :)
I had it on loan by a friend of mine, but its so good, that for 22,00 euro's this is a must, for all Haydn lovers.

Count me in, gentlemen!

BTW, how does the Brilliant set compare to this one?

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41JRWRQEE0L._AA240_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Harry on April 26, 2007, 04:22:47 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 26, 2007, 04:01:40 AM
Count me in, gentlemen!

BTW, how does the Brilliant set compare to this one?

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41JRWRQEE0L._AA240_.jpg)

Andrei that set is fabulous and a must! There is no comparing involved here, you need both!
The other Brilliant set is a HIP recording for just 22,00 euro's, so its extra, you see. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 26, 2007, 04:28:00 AM

Quote from: Harry on April 26, 2007, 04:22:47 AM
Andrei that set is fabulous and a must! There is no comparing involved here, you need both!
The other Brilliant set is a HIP recording for just 22,00 euro's, so its extra, you see. ;D

Thanks. I'll take the necessary actions.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on April 26, 2007, 11:15:58 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on April 25, 2007, 04:41:52 PM
Q - sorry, coming in late to this thread (don't know why w/ one of my favorite composers!) - I have a half dozen Haydn Baryton discs, including the 2-CD set pictured - I concur w/ Gurn - go for it (which you may already have w/ a 2 wk+ delay? ;D) - Dave

Thanks for the additional recommendation Dave! :)
It was already on my list together with set with the Van Swieten Trio on Brilliant, but now I really must get these soon! ;D
Looking forward to hear these barytons.

After I found the notturni played by the L'Archibudelli so marvelous, I'd welcome some additional recommendations on Haydn's chamber music! Anything I ought to check out besides the SQ's and piano trios?

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on April 27, 2007, 07:20:06 PM

Quote from: Que on April 26, 2007, 11:15:58 PM
Thanks for the additional recommendation Dave! :)
It was already on my list together with set with the Van Swieten Trio on Brilliant, but now I really must get these soon! ;D
Looking forward to hear these barytons.

After I found the notturni played by the L'Archibudelli so marvelous, I'd welcome some additional recommendations on Haydn's chamber music! Anything I ought to check out besides the SQ's and piano trios?

Q

This duo disc that Gurn recommended to me many moons ago should be on your list Que. Absolutely wonderful music.:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00000309B.01._SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg)

Samples here:

http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Sonatas-Violin-Cello-Op-23/dp/B00000309B/ref=sr_1_1/102-7134284-2880939?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1177730288&sr=8-1

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Anne on May 09, 2007, 06:53:33 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 06, 2007, 05:55:28 PM
Ah yes, I see. It is one of their reissues. Those are very tempting, pity they don't have liner notes, but otherwise they are a great chance to get OOP stuff you would never see otherwise. :)

8)

I am on Arkiv's mailing list and they announced today that they are including liner notes and artwork on CD covers of the OOP music they produce.

Does anyone have a good recommendation for CD/s of Haydn's cello concertos? Am going to a concert Friday night and want to hear it before the concert. Many thanks.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: tjguitar on May 09, 2007, 08:58:38 PM

This is probably a really dumb question but waht is the name of the piece by Haydn which starts out with one isntrument and ends with the whole orchestra (or maybe it was the other way around)...I know it's a fairly 'mainstream' piece....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on May 09, 2007, 09:28:44 PM

Quote from: tjguitar on May 09, 2007, 08:58:38 PM
This is probably a really dumb question but waht is the name of the piece by Haydn which starts out with one isntrument and ends with the whole orchestra (or maybe it was the other way around)...I know it's a fairly 'mainstream' piece....

Yes, it's the other way around and it's called the "Abschieds-Symphonie" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._45_(Haydn)) ("Farewell", symphony no. 45)

It was written for Haydn's patron, Prince Nikolaus Esterházy, while he, Haydn and the court orchestra were at the Prince's summer palace in Eszterhaza. The stay there had been longer than expected, and most of the musicians had been forced to leave their wives back at home in Eisenstadt, so in the last movement of the symphony, Haydn subtly hinted to his patron that perhaps he might like to allow the musicians to return home: during the final adagio each musician stops playing, snuffs out the candle on his music stand, and leaves in turn, so that at the end, there are just two muted violins left (played by Haydn himself and the concertmaster, Alois Luigi Tomasini). Esterházy apparently got the message: the court returned to Eisenstadt the day following the performance.

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: tjguitar on May 09, 2007, 09:37:18 PM

Thanks Que!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 09, 2007, 10:21:13 PM

Quote from: Anne on May 09, 2007, 06:53:33 PM
I am on Arkiv's mailing list and they announced today that they are including liner notes and artwork on CD covers of the OOP music they produce.

Does anyone have a good recommendation for CD/s of Haydn's cello concertos? Am going to a concert Friday night and want to hear it before the concert. Many thanks.

(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/41XCYHJTTNL._AA240_.jpg)

or

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/f4/0d/f99f228348a0d430d9e61110._AA240_.L.jpg)

Enjoy!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Anne on May 10, 2007, 05:25:25 AM

Florestan,

Much appreciated. Thank you very much!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on May 10, 2007, 07:14:14 AM

Quote from: Anne on May 10, 2007, 05:25:25 AM
Florestan,

Much appreciated. Thank you very much!

You're going to really like those recordings, Anne!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sean on May 10, 2007, 11:14:46 AM

Presently listening to the classic Beaux Arts set of the piano trios, as rapt and inspiredly beautiful playing as any review says: it's endlessly varied music with often daring but always perfectly organized and smooth modulations and juxtapositions.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 10, 2007, 02:35:19 PM

Quote from: Sean on May 10, 2007, 11:14:46 AM
Presently listening to the classic Beaux Arts set of the piano trios, as rapt and inspiredly beautiful playing as any review says: it's endlessly varied music with often daring but always perfectly organized and smooth modulations and juxtapositions.

And I, too, am listening to the Piano Trios! Not the BAT (which I have and love), but the oh, so HIP Trio 1790 which I have all 6 disks of, so far. Splendid music, can't really say more. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Anne on May 10, 2007, 05:23:38 PM

Quote from: Haffner on May 10, 2007, 07:14:14 AM

You're going to really like those recordings, Anne!

You're right. I do like them very much.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sean on May 10, 2007, 08:33:40 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 10, 2007, 02:35:19 PM
And I, too, am listening to the Piano Trios! Not the BAT (which I have and love), but the oh, so HIP Trio 1790 which I have all 6 disks of, so far. Splendid music, can't really say more. :)

8)

Yes it's hard to convey the particular civilized quality of this body of music. A definitive statement of the classical spirit in music.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on May 11, 2007, 03:46:47 AM

Quote from: Sean on May 10, 2007, 11:14:46 AM
Presently listening to the classic Beaux Arts set of the piano trios, as rapt and inspiredly beautiful playing as any review says: it's endlessly varied music with often daring but always perfectly organized and smooth modulations and juxtapositions.

I really love that recording, Sean, as you also probably guessed.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on May 12, 2007, 02:22:11 AM

Quote from: SonicMan on April 25, 2007, 04:52:43 PM
Gurn - sorry about posting on the Piano Trios, but this 'edited' post got BURIED in the 'listening thread', and may be more appropriate here, anyway - :)

I've just gone through the first 5 discs (of 10) of the Haydn Piano Trios w/ the Van Swieten Trio - Bart van Oort on the fortepiano (after Walter, 1795) along w/ several violinists, cellists, & a flautist (3 of the pieces in the set) - all period instruments, i.e. about as HIP, as possible! As a result, the blending of the fortepiano w/ the violin & cello is phenomenal (cello going along w/ the left hand of the pianist; violin for the right hand) - doubt this 'effect' could be accomplished w/ modern instruments - these are DDD recordings made just several years ago, and on the Brilliant label!

Check out the review by David Bryson (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Piano-Trios-Complete-Box/dp/B000DZV8C6/ref=sr_1_5/103-8488946-8127043?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1177443821&sr=1-5) on Amazon; BTW, I paid about $33 for this set on the Amazon Marketplace; presently, being offered at BRO (http://www.berkshirerecordoutlet.com/cgi-bin/seek.pl?StartRow=1&QueryText=haydn+piano+trios&AndOr=AND&Meth=Some&RPP=25l) for $30! You may not want 40+ Haydn 'Piano Trios' but @ $3 a disc, what's there to lose? ;D

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/92/923371.jpg)

Let me ad my voice to the many previous recommendations of this set.
Beautiful performances & excellent players! :)
A conveniently complete set of the piano trios for a budget price (I paid €18 = $25) - It's a steal! ;D

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Harry on May 12, 2007, 02:44:41 AM

Well its in front of me, so I will begin shortly with them! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 12, 2007, 06:51:35 AM

Quote from: Que on May 12, 2007, 02:22:11 AM
Let me ad my voice to the many previous recommendations of this set.
Beautiful performances & excellent players! :)
A conveniently complete set of the piano trios for a budget price (I paid €18 = $25) - It's a steal! ;D
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/92/923371.jpg)

Q - glad that you enjoyed that Haydn set - finished the remaining CDs shortly after my post w/ the same HIGH praise - HIP is really the way to go w/ this music - glad I took the leap (and the price certainly helped!) - amazing 'how much' excellent music Papa Haydn wrote in his lifetime (kind of the Telemann of the Classical Era - ;D) - Dave

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: quintett op.57 on May 14, 2007, 03:44:23 PM

I've discovered a masterpiece today : Haydn's quartet op.54 n°3.

Especially the Largo is fantastic.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 14, 2007, 03:51:08 PM

Quote from: quintett op.57 on May 14, 2007, 03:44:23 PM
I've discovered a masterpiece today : Haydn's quartet op.54 n°3.

Especially the Largo is fantastic.

I think the "middle period" string quartets contain some of the best pieces. In addition to Opp 54 & 55, I highly recommend the Op 50. Brilliant, clear through. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Israfel the Black on May 14, 2007, 03:55:49 PM

Hmm... I have a question. I just recently picked up 5 Haydn Piano Sonatas performed by Richter, and I just noticed Hob. XVI:40 has an uncanny resemblance to a melody Schumann used in his Papillons, Op. 2. This is a melody that I assumed was original, but this is so close I am wondering if Schumann quoted him. I am aware Schumann studied Haydn's music rather closely. Is anyone aware if this is true, and perhaps common knowledge for what I am just now discovering? This is quite a revelation for me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on May 16, 2007, 09:00:24 AM

Quote from: quintett op.57 on May 14, 2007, 03:44:23 PM
I've discovered a masterpiece today : Haydn's quartet op.54 n°3.

Especially the Largo is fantastic.

Amazing, and mostly memorable. I personally found the whole of op.54 to be devastating. The largo of no.2, and the opening movement of no.1 are also particularly outstanding. Haydn's manipulation of meter and key signatures are truly extraordinary.

Whom plays your favorite performance of this piece, quintett?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Israfel the Black on May 20, 2007, 07:23:42 AM

Quote from: Israfel the Black on May 14, 2007, 03:55:49 PM
Hmm... I have a question. I just recently picked up 5 Haydn Piano Sonatas performed by Richter, and I just noticed Hob. XVI:40 has an uncanny resemblance to a melody Schumann used in his Papillons, Op. 2. This is a melody that I assumed was original, but this is so close I am wondering if Schumann quoted him. I am aware Schumann studied Haydn's music rather closely. Is anyone aware if this is true, and perhaps common knowledge for what I am just now discovering? This is quite a revelation for me.

Can anyone confirm or deny this? ???

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 20, 2007, 08:25:29 AM

Quote from: Israfel the Black on May 20, 2007, 07:23:42 AM
Can anyone confirm or deny this? ???

Sorry, I can't, at least not with documentation. I did quite a bit of looking around when you first asked the question, and though I found out a lot about Papillons, I didn't find any mention of Haydn at all. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: quintett op.57 on May 20, 2007, 09:36:18 AM

I've just realised how modern 103 is.

there are some typical Beethovenian chords, but apart from this, the first movement makes me think about Liszt in terms of orchestration.
I love 104 but I regard 103 as an introduction to XIXth century great symphonists.
Some parts of the movements have really nothing to do with earlier Haydn or with late Mozart, especially the very beginning.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on May 20, 2007, 09:40:10 AM

Quote from: quintett op.57 on May 20, 2007, 09:36:18 AM
I've just realised how modern 103 is.

I love 104 but I regard 103 as an introduction to XIXth century great symphonists.

I hear this as well. And there are "proto-Romantic" (for a complete lack of a better term) parts in both the late trios and opps. 50, 76 and 77 as well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: quintett op.57 on May 20, 2007, 09:40:29 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 20, 2007, 08:25:29 AM
Sorry, I can't, at least not with documentation. I did quite a bit of looking around when you first asked the question, and though I found out a lot about Papillons, I didn't find any mention of Haydn at all. :-\

It's because Haydn is outrageously neglected as a piano composer.
If you don't know his piano music, get Gould or Brendel.

I'm going to listen to these pieces by Schumann & Haydn as soon as I'm in a piano mood.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 20, 2007, 09:59:49 AM

Quote from: quintett op.57 on May 20, 2007, 09:40:29 AM
I'm going to listen to these pieces by Schumann & Haydn as soon as I'm in a piano mood.

I'm always in a piano mood. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 20, 2007, 10:19:53 AM

Quote from: quintett op.57 on May 20, 2007, 09:40:29 AM
It's because Haydn is outrageously neglected as a piano composer.
If you don't know his piano music, get Gould or Brendel.

I'm going to listen to these pieces by Schumann & Haydn as soon as I'm in a piano mood.

That's not the problem ::) I have 2 complete cycles and several single disks of his piano music. You're right, it's fine music. But Israfel was asking about anything that talked about Schumann incorporating Haydn intentionally in Papillons. I can hear it fine, but I can't find anything that says he did it on purpose...

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Israfel the Black on May 20, 2007, 11:04:13 AM

Yes, I see. Curious. Thanks for researching it for me, however. I greatly appreciate it. I suppose this shall just be another unsolved mystery in Classical music. It sounds like a clear quotation to me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: quintett op.57 on May 20, 2007, 11:26:37 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 20, 2007, 10:19:53 AM
That's not the problem ::) I have 2 complete cycles and several single disks of his piano music. You're right, it's fine music. But Israfel was asking about anything that talked about Schumann incorporating Haydn intentionally in Papillons. I can hear it fine, but I can't find anything that says he did it on purpose...

8)

I think you can build your opinion by listening, it's why I'm going to check. :)
After listening carefully Haydn's XVI:49 sonata (2nd mvt), I got convinced Beethoven had quoted themes in it to compose the moonlight sonata (1st mvt).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Israfel the Black on May 20, 2007, 12:02:15 PM

I think Haydn was so vigorously studied and admired during the era that it was impossible for composers not to draw upon his melodies, intentionally or not.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: FideLeo on May 21, 2007, 12:07:31 AM

This recording is presently intriguing me, and I would very much appreciate any feedback on it. The name Christophe Coin doesn't hurt my interest one bit either. :)

(http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/7995/51pzwcd83lss400jl6.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Haydn, deLirium
Concerto, notturno per lire organizzate
Divertimenti per baryton
Ensemble Baroque de Limoges, direction Christophe Coin
Quatuor Mosaïques

A picture I found of them performing what may be on this disc. The two lire organizzati are too cute! :)
(http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/1825/paris050202ka8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
More pictures and sound files for the instrument here: http://matthias.loibner.net/lira/lira.html

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2007, 04:00:21 AM

Fl.Tr.
That's on my wish list, it hasn't been released in the States yet, but any day now, IIRC.

Yes, feedback would be nice, given that you are the only person I know who has heard it yet! :)

Note the instrument on the far right? Baryton or Viola de Gamba? Hard to tell without seeing the back of it... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Grazioso on May 21, 2007, 04:28:21 AM

Quote from: fl.traverso on May 21, 2007, 12:07:31 AM
This recording is presently intriguing me, and I would very much appreciate any feedback on it. The name Christophe Coin doesn't hurt my interest one bit either. :)

Haydn, deLirium
Concerto, notturno per lire organizzate
Divertimenti per baryton
Ensemble Baroque de Limoges, direction Christophe Coin
Quatuor Mosaïques

With Coin and the Mosaiques, it would be a great surprise if it weren't superb. Thanks for calling this release to our attention.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on May 21, 2007, 05:58:10 AM

Quote from: Grazioso on May 21, 2007, 04:28:21 AM
With Coin and the Mosaiques, it would be a great surprise if it weren't superb. Thanks for calling this release to our attention.

Yay! The QM kick boo-HOO-tay! :) :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 21, 2007, 08:13:09 AM

Quote from: fl.traverso on May 21, 2007, 12:07:31 AM
This recording is presently intriguing me, and I would very much appreciate any feedback on it. The name Christophe Coin doesn't hurt my interest one bit either. :)

FT - that picture broght back some memories - check out THIS POST (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,104.msg391203.html#msg391203) from the old forum - different pic but a link to the same website. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: FideLeo on May 21, 2007, 08:37:41 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2007, 04:00:21 AM
Fl.Tr.
That's on my wish list, it hasn't been released in the States yet, but any day now, IIRC.

Yes, feedback would be nice, given that you are the only person I know who has heard it yet! :)

Note the instrument on the far right? Baryton or Viola de Gamba? Hard to tell without seeing the back of it... :-\

8)

Hi Gurn,

This recording is also on my wish list (or rather at the top of it) so I haven't heard it myself, either :-\. (Sorry for all misunderstandings incurred.) According to Amazon uk, it doesn't get released here until the 29th this month, but I know it has been available for sometime on the continent. (Hint, hint to our EU members who do early reviews. ;)) As usual, I enjoy "slight" Haydn as much as I do his masterpieces. For one thing, I never seem ever to get tired of listening to his organ concertos. So I am having a lot of expectation for this one also. Should turn out to be another charmer!

The instrument to the right in the picture appears to be a baryton because a tenor viola da gamba (similar in size) does not have as many strings - some of which are no doubt "sympathetic wire strings," as named in the wiki article on the instrument. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baryton

Also picture of an "Estehazy baryton":
(http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/4200/esterhazybarytoncy7.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

It looks a lot like what Coin was playing, too. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: FideLeo on May 21, 2007, 08:56:48 AM

Quote from: SonicMan on May 21, 2007, 08:13:09 AM
FT - that picture broght back some memories - check out THIS POST (http://www.good-music-guide.com/forum/index.php/topic,104.msg391203.html#msg391203) from the old forum - different pic but a link to the same website. :D

Ah yes I saw your post about the Consortium Classicum recording of the noctures in reference to the lyra organizzata. I believe the new Coin disc also includes one or two noctures for the King of Naples. The Mozzafiata/L'archibudelli recording, however, features a duo of flute (Marten Root - yeah!) and oboe in place of the lyres but does so following arrangements made by Haydn himself. Don't remember whether any transposition was required in the arrangements.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: val on May 22, 2007, 01:17:57 AM

Regarding Coin, I am listening a superb version of the piano Trios 35, 36 and 37, with Höbarth and Patrick Cohen. In this three works they are better than the Beaux Arts Trio.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: FideLeo on May 22, 2007, 05:42:09 AM

Quote from: val on May 22, 2007, 01:17:57 AM
Regarding Coin, I am listening a superb version of the piano Trios 35, 36 and 37, with Höbarth and Patrick Cohen. In this three works they are better than the Beaux Arts Trio.

I don't think they have done much more beyond this really. A pity. The disc with Jerome Hantai, Philippe Couvert and Alix Verzier doing 36, 37, 40 makes a good second recording for these pieces, though, even with the duplications.

(http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/6964/400724wz0.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: val on May 23, 2007, 12:33:23 AM

Quotefl.traverso

I don't think they have done much more beyond this really. A pity. The disc with Jerome Hantai, Philippe Couvert and Alix Verzier doing 36, 37, 40 makes a good second recording for these pieces, though, even with the duplications.

Cohen, Höbarth and Coin also recorded the Trios 25 to 27. I never could find that CD (the 27 is a masterpiece and I would love to hear an alternative version of the Beaux Arts Trio).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: FideLeo on May 23, 2007, 12:45:17 AM

Quote from: val on May 23, 2007, 12:33:23 AM

Cohen, Höbarth and Coin also recorded the Trios 25 to 27. I never could find that CD (the 27 is a masterpiece and I would love to hear an alternative version of the Beaux Arts Trio).

Right. I think I must have confused that album with the one of trios 28-30 in which a traverso (hey hey) replaces the violin. Cohen and Coin play with Konrad Hünteler here.

(http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/224/41e8sb0t8blss500vp4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: lukeottevanger on May 23, 2007, 01:16:42 AM

Quote from: Israfel the Black on May 14, 2007, 03:55:49 PM
Hmm... I have a question. I just recently picked up 5 Haydn Piano Sonatas performed by Richter, and I just noticed Hob. XVI:40 has an uncanny resemblance to a melody Schumann used in his Papillons, Op. 2. This is a melody that I assumed was original, but this is so close I am wondering if Schumann quoted him. I am aware Schumann studied Haydn's music rather closely. Is anyone aware if this is true, and perhaps common knowledge for what I am just now discovering? This is quite a revelation for me.

Could you be more specific about which melodies you are finding similar?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Israfel the Black on May 23, 2007, 06:58:23 AM

The main melody of the Haydn sonata, it starts right at the beginning of the piece and plays throughout the first movement. In Schumann's Papillons, Op. 2, it starts toward the end of the work. It's at 11:15 in the Wilhem Kempff recording (13:14 total). The melodies are nearly identical.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: lukeottevanger on May 23, 2007, 07:29:14 AM

I thought you might have meant these two melodies. No, Schumann doesn't take it from Haydn; they are similar in type and in shape (sturdy little diatonic major tunes in triple time, the first phrase ending with a rising figure and a repeated note) but are not the same tune in most particulars. However, more important than that as a determining factor is the fact that actually Schumann is quoting a different melody entirely here: the 'Grossvater Tanz', which is a famous little seventeenth century German tune which was (I think) used on formal ocassions, hence Schumann quoting it here, at the end of his imaginary night of waltzing! He also quotes it, more cryptically, in one of the pieces from the Album for the Young (can't remember which, might be one of the Wintertime ones, one which moves from C minor to C major); Tchaikovsky quotes it in Act I of The Nutcracker too, for the presentation of the older guests.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on June 12, 2007, 05:44:26 PM

Quote from: Florestan on April 26, 2007, 04:01:40 AM
Count me in, gentlemen!

BTW, how does the Brilliant set compare to this one?

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41JRWRQEE0L._AA240_.jpg)

Could I ask the above question again for those who have ordered and recieved their Brilliant box?

I like my Haydn with mucho zest and playfulness. And I only want one box - for now. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on June 30, 2007, 06:02:49 AM

We've had a lot of discussion about Haydn's obscure chamber music on the last two incarnations of the forum, but was wondering whether anyone could clue me in on his choral music.

Outside of the masses and oratorios, are there any recommendations for good recordings of his smaller pieces, eg motets such as Salve Regina etc? preferably a nice disc full of them rather than filler, but either is good. I guess the Stabat Mater isn't very well-known, but it's a substantial work and has had several recordings at least.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 30, 2007, 12:36:00 PM

Quote from: George on June 12, 2007, 05:44:26 PM
Could I ask the above question again for those who have ordered and recieved their Brilliant box?

I like my Haydn with mucho zest and playfulness. And I only want one box - for now. :)

Hello George - Q & I made some comments on the Brilliant set back on pages 2 & 3 of this thread - but I can't give you a 'blow for blow' comparsion w/ the Borodins (don't have them in Haydn's Piano Trios) - but for the money, the HIP performances, and the outstanding sound, the Brilliant box is hard to beat (I have the Borodins in many other trios and would imagine that I'd enjoy their performances w/ the Haydn works) - good luck in your selection! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on July 02, 2007, 09:13:42 AM

Quote from: SonicMan on June 30, 2007, 12:36:00 PM
Hello George - Q & I made some comments on the Brilliant set back on pages 2 & 3 of this thread - but I can't give you a 'blow for blow' comparsion w/ the Borodins (don't have them in Haydn's Piano Trios) - but for the money, the HIP performances, and the outstanding sound, the Brilliant box is hard to beat (I have the Borodins in many other trios and would imagine that I'd enjoy their performances w/ the Haydn works) - good luck in your selection! :)

Dave,
We both ended up going for the BAT set. My wife and I just love it!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 02, 2007, 09:44:39 AM

Quote from: Bogey on July 02, 2007, 09:13:42 AM
Dave,
We both ended up going for the BAT set. My wife and I just love it!

Hello, Bill - just noticed that you're now a Veteran! ;D Congrats - :)

As mentioned, I love the BAT, and would be perfectly happy w/ that set (like George not sure I needed a duplicate box) - use to have just a couple of CDs of those trios (Coin was one mentioned in a post above) - but for those 'still sitting on the fence', either of these box sets should please; but if one insists on HIP performances, the Brilliant box is certainly an excellent choice - :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on July 08, 2007, 03:09:42 PM

Might anyone here be able generate a list of Haydn's masses that I can use as a check-list or direct me to a site that already did this? Thanks!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 08, 2007, 04:08:05 PM

Name    Key    Hoboken No.    Year    Specifics
Missa Brevis    F    XXII:1    1749
Missa 'Sunt Bonta Mixta Malis'    d    XXII:2    1767-69    lost
Missa 'Rorate coeli desuper'    G    XXII:3
Missa in Honorem Beatae Mariae Virginiae (Grosse Orgelmesse)    E flat    XXII:4    1774
Missa Cellensis in Honorem BMV (Nicolaimesse)    G    XXII:6         nickname: 6/4 Takt Messe
Missa Brevis sancti Joannis de Deo (Kleine Orgelmesse)    B flat    XXII:7    1778
Missa cellensis (Mariazeller Messe)    C    XXII:8    1782
Missa in tempore belli (Kriegsmesse / Paukenmesse)    C    XXII:9    1796
Missa sancti Bernardi von Offida (Heiligmesse)    B flat    XXII:10    1796
Missa (Kronungsmesse / Imperial Mass / Nelsonmesse / Missa in angustiis)    d    XXII:11    1798
Missa (Theresienmesse)    B flat    XXII:12    1799
Missa (Schopfungsmesse)    B flat    XXII:13    1801
Missa (Harmoniemesse)    B flat    XXII:14    1802

Bill,
If you can navigate the format jungle, here you go. The column headings at the top hold true down the page, they just don't line up in plain text format, they were a table... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on July 09, 2007, 07:12:16 PM

Thank you very much Gurn....just what I wanted.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gabriel on July 10, 2007, 01:29:53 PM

Gurn: remember that Hob. XXII:2 (Missa 'Sunt bona mixta malis') was discovered in fragmentary state and there is a recording in Chandos of the Kyrie and the Gloria (in the excellent series conducted by Richard Hickox).

Just to complete the information... ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 10, 2007, 02:15:35 PM

Quote from: Gabriel on July 10, 2007, 01:29:53 PM
Gurn: remember that Hob. XXII:2 (Missa 'Sunt bona mixta malis') was discovered in fragmentary state and there is a recording in Chandos of the Kyrie and the Gloria (in the excellent series conducted by Richard Hickox).

Just to complete the information... ;)

Gabriel,
Thanks for that. No, I didn't ever know that. Hoboken (according to New Grove) says there are over 100 other masses attributed to Haydn :o

I like Hickox though, so I'll see what I can find.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gabriel on July 10, 2007, 02:23:49 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 10, 2007, 02:15:35 PM
Gabriel,
Thanks for that. No, I didn't ever know that. Hoboken (according to New Grove) says there are over 100 other masses attributed to Haydn :o

I like Hickox though, so I'll see what I can find.

8)

His Haydn recordings are very good, as well as the Hummel masses he's also recording in Chandos/Chaconne. In fact, I saw a couple of months ago a box with all his Haydn masses, in a very convenient price; but as I had bought some of the recordings before, I left the box on the shelf. It's a great opportunity to be considered by those who want to explore these works.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 10, 2007, 02:32:14 PM

Quote from: Gabriel on July 10, 2007, 02:23:49 PM
His Haydn recordings are very good, as well as the Hummel masses he's also recording in Chandos/Chaconne. In fact, I saw a couple of months ago a box with all his Haydn masses, in a very convenient price; but as I had bought some of the recordings before, I left the box on the shelf. It's a great opportunity to be considered by those who want to explore these works.

A couple disks I have of his London Symphonies are very good also. Hope he does more, and earlier, ones too.

I have this one:
(http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51TYV0Y99BL.jpg)

But I am guessing that you are talking about this one:
(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/61DPKJNAX9L._SS500_.jpg)

And a bargain at Amazon!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gabriel on July 10, 2007, 02:33:16 PM

That is the set! That is the set! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on July 10, 2007, 03:08:45 PM

Quote from: Gabriel on July 10, 2007, 02:23:49 PM
His Haydn recordings are very good, as well as the Hummel masses he's also recording in Chandos/Chaconne. In fact, I saw a couple of months ago a box with all his Haydn masses, in a very convenient price; but as I had bought some of the recordings before, I left the box on the shelf. It's a great opportunity to be considered by those who want to explore these works.

Those are "beauties" as well. I have all three cds on my wish-list.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on July 10, 2007, 09:47:36 PM

Quote from: Gabriel on July 10, 2007, 02:33:16 PM
That is the set! That is the set! ;D

NO, Bruno Weil's is THE Haydn masses set! ;D

(http://www.kruidvatentertainmentshop.nl/ProductImages/92546.jpg)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gabriel on July 11, 2007, 01:33:34 AM

I have a couple of CDs from that set, and they are excellent indeed; as well as the only CD I have of his symphonies (n. 45, 46 and 47), which makes me think it would be extraordinary if he recorded the complete symphonies.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on July 14, 2007, 10:01:11 AM

Need some advice on these - go or no go? 8)

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XSQQ0MVML._SS500_.jpg)(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/5157FR4B8RL._SS500_.jpg)

Thanks! :)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 14, 2007, 12:14:00 PM

Quote from: Que on July 14, 2007, 10:01:11 AM
Need some advice on these - go or no go? 8)

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XSQQ0MVML._SS500_.jpg)(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/5157FR4B8RL._SS500_.jpg)

Thanks! :)

Q

I am awfully partial to them, Q. In fact I played the blue one this AM. OTOH, I don't have a lot to compare them to, but the playing is very good, and the recorded sound is too, hard to see how you could go wrong (as long as you like baryton trios ;) )

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on July 14, 2007, 12:33:59 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 14, 2007, 12:14:00 PM
I am awfully partial to them, Q. In fact I played the blue one this AM. OTOH, I don't have a lot to compare them to, but the playing is very good, and the recorded sound is too, hard to see how you could go wrong (as long as you like baryton trios ;) )

8)

Thanks Gurn. :)
I loved the baryton octets on Ricercar. so I think these trios will suit me fine.

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 14, 2007, 12:37:24 PM

Quote from: Que on July 14, 2007, 12:33:59 PM
Thanks Gurn. :)
I loved the baryton octets on Ricercar. so I think these trios will suit me fine.

Q

So do I, I just didn't want to be too forward... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on July 14, 2007, 04:52:56 PM

Quote from: Que on July 14, 2007, 10:01:11 AM
Need some advice on these - go or no go? 8)

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XSQQ0MVML._SS500_.jpg)(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/5157FR4B8RL._SS500_.jpg)

Thanks! :)

Q

I have the first one Que...excellent stuff. Dave (Sonic) has both I believe and loves them.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on July 15, 2007, 07:38:13 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 10, 2007, 02:15:35 PM

I like Hickox though, so I'll see what I can find.

8)

I wonder if 71 dB also likes him, as he is listed, or at least was, as President of the Elgar Society. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 16, 2007, 12:50:10 PM

Quote from: Que on July 14, 2007, 12:33:59 PM
Thanks Gurn. :)
I loved the baryton octets on Ricercar. so I think these trios will suit me fine.

Q, as Bill indicated in a related post, I also like Gurn own both volumes of the Baryton Trios w/ Hsu on the ASV label - I would concur w/ the positive comments; Hsu knows this repertoire quite well & wrote the program notes on both CDs.

I also have the 2-CD set of the Baryton Octets w/ Ricercar Consort - excellent; the only other Haydn baryton disc that I own is on the Hungaroton label w/ Kakuk - has 4 trios, two of which overlap the Hsu set.

I'd love to obtain some more of these recordings (Haydn wrote so many!), but the few other discs that I have seen online are OOP, so look forward to any recommendations - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 16, 2007, 02:12:50 PM

Dave,
I also have this one:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41N11ZR3QFL.jpg)

The Haydn Baryton Trio also features Hsu, but I think the other players are different. Also, Amazon Marketplace want $79.99 for it... ::)

There is also this one:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/21AN7ATG5ZL.jpg)

which I didn't get because it overlaps 2 or 3 pieces. Might be worthwhile, it isn't unduly expensive (it's on cpo)...

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 16, 2007, 03:52:51 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 16, 2007, 02:12:50 PM
Dave,
I also have this one:

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/41N11ZR3QFL._SS500_.jpg) (http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/21AN7ATG5ZL._SS500_.jpg)

The Haydn Baryton Trio also features Hsu, but I think the other players are different. Also, Amazon Marketplace want $79.99 for it... ::)

Gurn - good evening! :) Yes, I was goin' to post those two images I reduced in size above, but both seem to be OOP or outrageously expensive, as you've indicated (hate to have seen that Dorian label disappear!) - several months ago, I was on this website International Baryton Society (http://www.baryton.mailbox.co.uk/ibs.html) just out of curiosity - even sent some e-mails - i.e. I was interested in BUYING a baryton for Susan (and to be placed in our living room w/ the rest of her instruments; she might have tried to even play it! But, could I find a teacher here? ;) :D) - did not get very far! >:(

But, I love this instrument & hope to see some more recordings appear? ::) ;D Dave - 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 16, 2007, 04:19:51 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on July 16, 2007, 03:52:51 PM
Gurn - good evening! :) Yes, I was goin' to post those two images I reduced in size above, but both seem to be OOP or outrageously expensive, as you've indicated (hate to have seen that Dorian label disappear!) - several months ago, I was on this website International Baryton Society (http://www.baryton.mailbox.co.uk/ibs.html) just out of curiosity - even sent some e-mails - i.e. I was interested in BUYING a baryton for Susan (and to be placed in our living room w/ the rest of her instruments; she might have tried to even play it! But, could I find a teacher here? ;) :D) - did not get very far! >:(

But, I love this instrument & hope to see some more recordings appear? ::) ;D Dave - 8)

The Dorian is indeed OOP, but the CPO isn't. Amazon have it new for $16.99, and used for $10.99. I might pick up a used one anyway, just to hear what the players are like, and if their recording has a nice balance to it (sometimes I have trouble hearing the baryton part, probably my system, but maybe not...).

Wow! Buying a baryton seems like an expensive proposition, although it would make a fantastic ornament for the living room. Maybe we should wean M away from the Baß and over to a rarer instrument. I know that I wouldn't ever master it... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 16, 2007, 04:40:43 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 16, 2007, 04:19:51 PM
.....Wow! Buying a baryton seems like an expensive proposition, although it would make a fantastic ornament for the living room. Maybe we should wean M away from the Baß and over to a rarer instrument. I know that I wouldn't ever master it... :-\

Yeh - I was serious, and even followed some links & some further e-mails - would be a VERY expensive proposition, i.e. find an 'older' one (not cheap), have one built from scatch (not cheap), or buy a kit (unavailable - :() - I built Susan a 'hammered dulcimer' which she has not been playing yet! I would love to buy her a nice one (there are so many made locally here which are just beautiful!); but couldn't you see a baryton in the corner of our living room below along w/ the rest of the instruments, including a couple of 'hand-made' Irish harps - ;) :D Dave

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/24059337-M.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 16, 2007, 04:50:16 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on July 16, 2007, 04:40:43 PM
Yeh - I was serious, and even followed some links & some further e-mails - would be a VERY expensive proposition, i.e. find an 'older' one (not cheap), have one built from scatch (not cheap), or buy a kit (unavailable - :() - I built Susan a 'hammered dulcimer' which she has not been playing yet! I would love to buy her a nice one (there are so many made locally here which are just beautiful!); but couldn't you see a baryton in the corner of our living room below along w/ the rest of the instruments, including a couple of 'hand-made' Irish harps - ;) :D Dave

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/24059337-M.jpg)

You know, it's never to late to learn to be a luthier. You already have most of the woodworking skills. ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 16, 2007, 05:05:56 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 16, 2007, 04:50:16 PM
You know, it's never to late to learn to be a luthier. You already have most of the woodworking skills. ;)
8)

Yes, the idea is appealing, esp. where I live, but hey as a radiologist even working 'part time' I could make much more $$, and teaching 'cute' female residents is much more appealing to an 'aging male' - ;) ;D

But, that larger harp was made in the '80s by Chris Caswell - for those interested, check his WebSite (http://www.caswellharps.com/harps.php) - completely 'hand-made' and just a work of art; plus, Susan does play that instrument beautifully and sings along - think we paid about $800 at the time - he works out of California; not sure what his current prices are for this harp but probably 2-3X; I've exchanged a number of e-mails w/ him concerning construction of these harps - much is 'handwork' which is not my current woodworking forte (I'm into machines more & right angles) - but you must admit that these do look beautiful!

Dave - ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 16, 2007, 05:25:36 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on July 16, 2007, 05:05:56 PM
Yes, the idea is appealing, esp. where I live, but hey as a radiologist even working 'part time' I could make much more $$, and teaching 'cute' female residents is much more appealing to an 'aging male' - ;) ;D

But, that larger harp was made in the '80s by Chris Caswell - for those interested, check his WebSite (http://www.caswellharps.com/harps.php) - completely 'hand-made' and just a work of art; plus, Susan does play that instrument beautifully and sings along - think we paid about $800 at the time - he works out of California; not sure what his current prices are for this harp but probably 2-3X; I've exchanged a number of e-mails w/ him concerning construction of these harps - much is 'handwork' which is not my current woodworking forte (I'm into machines more & right angles) - but you must admit that these do look beautiful!

Dave - ;D

Hell yes, they're beautiful!

Of course, there comes a time in life when making more $$$ (and even cute coeds) become less important than following the dream... ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 16, 2007, 05:38:01 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 16, 2007, 05:25:36 PM
Of course, there comes a time in life when making more $$$ (and even cute coeds) become less important than following the dream... ;)

Gurn - you're right, as an 'academic' radiologist the money is more like $ (vs. $$$), so the attraction is the 'teaching' which I still enjoy & being w/ 'young' people (kind of keeps you alive!) - they are interesting & intelligent - but I'll need to make a decision in the next 2-3 years - either way I'll enjoy continuing to teach or I'll enjoy quiting & pursuing my hobbies & travels w/ Susan, just tough to decide 'when' to make that transition! ::) But, stilling having fun - Dave ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on July 17, 2007, 10:04:39 AM

I found another, new recording of Haydn Bayton trios.
Seems that Philippe Pierlot, leader of the Ricercar Consort, has started his own CD label called "Flora".

(http://www.ramifications.be/Labels/Flora/Images/divertimenti_haydn.jpg)
Link & sample (http://www.kelys.org/flora/)

Trios for baryton, viola and cello nr. 096 Hob. XI:096; no. 66 ; nr. 70 ; no. 97 Hob. XI:097 : per la feliccissima nascita di S.A1.S. Prencipe Estorhazi; no. 101 Hob. XI:101
Philippe Pierlot/ François Fernandez/ Rainer Zipperling

Sounds good! :)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on July 19, 2007, 07:22:35 AM

I have not reviewed this entire thread again, but was wondering, due to the recent spins Harry and I have given, what you folks have in the way of Michael Haydn and your thoughts on his works. And should we give consideration to moving the apostrophe to have the title read:

Haydns' Haus ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JoshLilly on July 19, 2007, 08:28:50 AM

There are several Michael Haydn symphonies that are just fantabulous. I heartily recommend the Vox Box double-CD of M. Haydn symphonies. I think those are actually my favourites of his symphonies on those 2 CDs, so I'm very lucky in that regard. There's some really awesome stuff in there. My take is that Michael's strength wasn't melodies. Not that they're bad, but there aren't too many (in my opinion, of course) that really stand out. It's what he does with them. Some of his works are so much fun. On that Vox set, you get a great sampling of his orchestral style spread out over several years: funny endings to movements, unusual scoring (including a "shepherd's flute"), rollicking fun music that seems intended to make you happy, and one symphony that contains a finale of some mega intensity (to compare with his brother, it reminds me of the later 'Drumroll' Symphony finale, except built around a four-part fugue).

The Olympia and cpo labels have each come out with (or are still in the process of coming out with) complete sets of all known M. Haydn symphonies. You can also get quite a bit of his other music, even his opera Andromeda und Perseo, which I like fairly well, but it's not cheap. Hrm... I see also Vox has recorded more of his symphonies than that one 2-CD box; the one I'm talking about has a reddish colouring to it, and is a bit older.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gabriel on July 19, 2007, 10:44:18 AM

Other than some of his fine symphonies, I have listened to one of his Requiem masses, the Missa Pro Defuncto Archiepiscopo Sigismundo, which Mozart must have taken very seriously, if not as a model, at least as a strong reference, for his Requiem. I don't have the recording with me right now, but I remember the appearence of the "Te decet hymnus" at the beginning, or the motives of the fugal parts later, which are astonishing in the similarity with the younger composer's work.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on July 23, 2007, 11:19:11 PM

For Haydn's (Joseph that is! ;D) fortepiano concertos we seem to be spoiled for choice with two TOP performers!
Could I have your comments on differences in approach and your preference? (If you have one, maybe you like them both.. 8))

Click on pictures for links

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/2261711.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/2261711/rk/classic/rsk/hitlist) (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/2893963.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/2893963/rk/classic/rsk/hitlist).

Thanks! :)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on July 24, 2007, 05:37:22 AM

Quote from: Que on July 23, 2007, 11:19:11 PM

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/2261711.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/2261711/rk/classic/rsk/hitlist)

Brautigam now looks like an 80s pop star. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 24, 2007, 07:07:54 AM

Quote from: Que on July 23, 2007, 11:19:11 PM
For Haydn's (Joseph that is! ;D) fortepiano concertos we seem to be spoiled for choice with two TOP performers!
Could I have your comments on differences in approach and your preference? (If you have one, maybe you like them both.. 8))

Q - thanks for mentioning these discs - can't comment, but will be interested; currently, I own only Pletnev playing 3 of these works on a modern piano. However, since these are 'single' discs, I was curious about 'how many' Keyboard Concertos Haydn composed?

In reviewing his list of works in the back of the The New Grove Haydn (2002), there is an entry on pg. 122 entitled Keyboard Concertos/Concertinos/Divertimentos - under H18, 3, 4, & 11 are listed as Concerti w/ hpd or hpd/pf; 1, 2, & 6 are listed as org/hpd; 5, 8, & 10 are in an appendix w/ the statement 'attributed to Haydn' (and are w/ org/hpd); several seem to be missing. As usual, a little confusing - BTW, on my Pletnev disc, the works played are H18:4, 7, & 11 (7 being 'attributed' to Haydn) - Dave :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on July 24, 2007, 07:54:43 AM

Quote from: Que on July 23, 2007, 11:19:11 PM
For Haydn's (Joseph that is! ;D)

Thanks! :)

Q

I am currently checking myself for blood, because I believe I just got tagged. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: uffeviking on July 26, 2007, 04:34:32 PM

Mr. Gurn I wish you a good flight tomorrow to attend this year's Salzburg Festival! I just read in Der Spiegel the new Intendant Jürgen Flimm has scheduled the Joseph Haydn opera Armida! It's all about a Heathen witch putting the jinx on a Christian knight. Sounds like fun! >:D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 26, 2007, 05:21:02 PM

Quote from: uffeviking on July 26, 2007, 04:34:32 PM
Mr. Gurn I wish you a good flight tomorrow to attend this year's Salzburg Festival! I just read in Der Spiegel the new Intendant Jürgen Flimm has scheduled the Joseph Haydn opera Armida! It's all about a Heathen witch putting the jinx on a Christian knight. Sounds like fun! >:D

Tomorrow already? Schieß! I haven't even got my passport yet, and that could take years :o

I have heard that Armida is one of his best. I would like to see that, as long as there isn't too much of that weird stuff in it that you like so much. Are they standing knee-deep in water the whole time? :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Anne on October 02, 2007, 09:01:53 AM

There was one well-known patient who would live to regret escaping John Hunter's knife. The Austrian composer Joseph Haydn would become a familiar visitor to the Hunter household during his stay in London in 1791 and 1792 It was Hunter's attractive and talented wife, Anne, however, who attracted him to Leicester Square. Haydn became a regular guest at Anne's musical evenings, and he even set six of her poems to music, his Six Original Canzonettas. As their friendship grew, Anne would become regarded as Haydn's muse.

But the talented composer suffered from painful polyps in his nose. Whether Hunter simply had an altruistic desire to ease Haydn's discomfort or, conceivably, suspected the friendship with his wife went beyond purely professional interest, he determined to employ his surgical instruments on the composer. Initially, during a consultation in Hunter's study, Haydn seemed to consent to have the polyps removed. But a moment later, when he was roughly grabbed by Hunter's assistants, forced toward a chair, and saw the surgeon bearing down on him with a pair of forceps glinting, he promptly changed his mind. "I yelled and kicked and hit until I had freed myself," Haydn later recalled and made clear to Mr. Hunter, who already had his instruments ready for the operation, that I did not want to undergo the operation." Finally he managed to convince Hunter to put away his instruments. Haydn noted, "It seemed to me that he pitied me for not wanting to undergo the happy experience of enjoying his skill." Returning to Austria, where his polyps continued to grow and cause him pain, Haydn later wished that he had consented to the happy experience of Hunter's skills.

The Knife Man: Blood, Body Snatching, and the Birth of Modern Surgery by Wendy Moore, c 2005, Broadway Books, N.Y. pp. 233-234.

I haven't been following this thread and apologize if someone already posted this anecdote. I'd like to thank Sonic Man for recommending this book. It was VERY interesting.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on October 02, 2007, 09:08:14 AM

I think that I read somewhere that Mozart completed a set of String Duos for Michael Haydn when the latter fell ill. WaM contributed two, which are perhaps the greatest works ever composed in that genre. I've read that the Archbishop wasn't exactly fooled: Mozart's two SDs were too glaringly superior to make the rest of the set look uniform.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: cx on October 04, 2007, 07:16:41 AM

I am swept away by this music as of late:

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/27/277981.jpg)

Haydn: String Quartets Op 54 & 74 / Endellion Quartet

Now this is a genre in which Haydn most certainly excels. Op. 54 nos. 1 and 2 and Op.74 no. 3 are current favorites.

Time to get more, I suppose. I know this is out there:

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/40/408204.JPG)

but I'm on a budget and will probably go for a few single recordings before I even consider such a purchase.

So, any recommendations on quartet recordings? I welcome comments about the complete set above too!

--CS

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: dtwilbanks on October 04, 2007, 07:22:47 AM

CS,

I've heard a couple of these discs and enjoyed them. Still, rather expensive, I guess. But you do get 23 CDs. :)

http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/1043011/a/Haydn:+Complete+String+Quartets+%2F+Kod%E1ly+Quartet.htm (http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/1043011/a/Haydn:+Complete+String+Quartets+%2F+Kod%E1ly+Quartet.htm)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: cx on October 04, 2007, 07:54:36 AM

At Arkiv the Kodály discs are $5.99 a piece.

5.99 * 23 = 137.77 < 137.89 (cduniverse) :o

Maybe I'll order a few of those single recordings to start out.

--CS

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: dtwilbanks on October 04, 2007, 08:06:14 AM

Quote from: CS on October 04, 2007, 07:54:36 AM
At Arkiv the Kodály discs are $5.99 a piece.

5.99 * 23 = 137.77 < 137.89 (cduniverse) :o

Maybe I'll order a few of those single recordings to start out.

--CS

Yes, that's a sale to take advantage of.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on October 06, 2007, 03:41:30 AM

Quote from: dtw on October 04, 2007, 07:22:47 AM
CS,

I've heard a couple of these discs and enjoyed them. Still, rather expensive, I guess. But you do get 23 CDs. :)

http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/1043011/a/Haydn:+Complete+String+Quartets+%2F+Kod%E1ly+Quartet.htm (http://www.cduniverse.com/search/xx/music/pid/1043011/a/Haydn:+Complete+String+Quartets+%2F+Kod%E1ly+Quartet.htm)

I think Harry would agree as well: GET THIS, you will have it for the rest of your life. Opp.s 20-77 are overall the most remarkable effort in the String Quartet genre. Beethoven bested them only in his later SQS, and Mozart drew up short as a whole.
Just my opinion.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on October 06, 2007, 05:59:27 AM

Quote from: Haffner on October 06, 2007, 03:41:30 AM
I think Harry would agree as well: GET THIS, you will have it for the rest of your life.

So does George. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on October 06, 2007, 06:18:59 AM

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/380/385782.jpg)

I've had four or five discs from this set, but parted with them after a while.

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on October 06, 2007, 06:20:17 AM

Quote from: Que on October 06, 2007, 06:18:59 AM
(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/380/385782.jpg)

I've had four or five discs from this set, but parted with them after a while.

Q

What happened?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 06, 2007, 06:30:42 AM

Quote from: Haffner on October 06, 2007, 03:41:30 AM

I think Harry would agree as well: GET THIS, you will have it for the rest of your life. Opp.s 20-77 are overall the most remarkable effort in the String Quartet genre. Beethoven bested them only in his later SQS, and Mozart drew up short as a whole.
Just my opinion.

Kodaly's set is good, but they need to release a version without jewel cases. I also like the Angeles Q set, and it came in box with sleeves type, it saves alot of space. Performance wise I think they're about the same even interpretatively. Just kind of classical style restraint, but polished and swift. Sonic wise I think Kodaly has Angeles Q beat since Angeles Q has that weird asymmetric division of players between left and right. Not really a problem through speakers, but obnoxious through headphones.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on October 06, 2007, 06:31:02 AM

Quote from: Haffner on October 06, 2007, 06:20:17 AM
What happened?

Commitment issues? ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on October 06, 2007, 06:46:38 AM

Quote from: George on October 06, 2007, 06:31:02 AM
Commitment issues? ;D

Very much so! 8)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Harry on October 06, 2007, 08:06:12 AM

Quote from: Haffner on October 06, 2007, 03:41:30 AM

I think Harry would agree as well: GET THIS, you will have it for the rest of your life. Opp.s 20-77 are overall the most remarkable effort in the String Quartet genre. Beethoven bested them only in his later SQS, and Mozart drew up short as a whole.
Just my opinion.

Harry does indeed! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: hornteacher on October 15, 2007, 05:15:05 PM

Well he wrote a lot of them. I would very much like suggestions for a "Top 5" or "Top 10" list of Haydn String Quartets.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2007, 05:48:37 PM

Well, yes, he did. <> 68 of them, in fact.

You aren't going to buy them individually, you are going to buy Opera. I would strongly suggest the following as a first choice:

Op 76 - 6 quartets. Absolutely wonderful

Op 50 - 6 quartets. My personal favorites.

Op 74 - 3 quartets. Some very intriguing advances in form harmonics.

Op 33 - 6 quartets. The first great quartets by anyone.

Op 55 - 3 quartets. A great set, hard to eat just one.

So there, a Top 5 to start on. After that, Op 54 (3), Op 64 (6), Op 71 (3), Op 77 (2), Op 20 (6). OK, so that's a Top 10. :)

8)
----------------
Now playing: Divertimentos & Sestetto - L'Archibudelli - K 320d 364alt Grande Sestetto in Eb (from Sinfonia Concertante) 2nd mvmt - Andante

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on October 15, 2007, 05:55:49 PM

Thanks for that, Gurn! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2007, 06:27:00 PM

Quote from: George on October 15, 2007, 05:55:49 PM
Thanks for that, Gurn! :)

Y'r welcome, George. We're talking my favorite music now! :D

8)

----------------
Now playing: L'Archibudelli / Immerseel - Bia 536 Op 97 Trio #6 in Bb for Piano & Strings 4th mvmt - Allegro moderato

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bonehelm on October 15, 2007, 06:40:35 PM

The first one I heard was the Emperor quartet. op.76 if I recall correctly.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2007, 06:51:43 PM

Quote from: Bonehelm on October 15, 2007, 06:40:35 PM
The first one I heard was the Emperor quartet. op.76 if I recall correctly.

Yes, Op 76 #3. Very nice piece. As a first disk, if one would only get a single CD to start with, I would say any of those that have Op 76 #1-3, this is a great introduction. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing: L'Archibudelli / Immerseel - Schubert D 898 Piano Trio in Bb 2nd mvmt - Andante un poco mosso

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: springrite on October 15, 2007, 06:57:08 PM

Go with the nicknamed ones first! --- Emperor, Sunrise, Bird, Fifth, Lark, etc.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on October 15, 2007, 06:59:50 PM

One of my favorite Haydn discs (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/1071189):

(http://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/190/10/7/1/189.jpg)

(Though the "Serenade" quartet is supposedly by Hoffmeister, not Haydn.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2007, 07:03:36 PM

Quote from: springrite on October 15, 2007, 06:57:08 PM
Go with the nicknamed ones first! --- Emperor, Sunrise, Bird, Fifth, Lark, etc.

Yes, those are the memorable ones. But he will still have to buy the Opera to get them that way. Emperor, Sunrise and Fifths (Quintens) are all in Op 76, The Bird is in Op 33, and The Lark is in Op 64. If you could just buy singles... :-\

8)

----------------
Now playing: L'Archibudelli / Immerseel - Schubert D 898 Piano Trio in Bb 3rd mvmt - Scherzo: Allegro - Trio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on October 15, 2007, 07:08:04 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2007, 07:03:36 PM
Yes, those are the memorable ones. But he will still have to buy the Opera to get them that way.

What is this Opera you speak of?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 15, 2007, 07:12:50 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2007, 07:03:36 PM
If you could just buy singles... :-\

You probably can through amazon now that they sell music online by track. I like Op 76 #5.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on October 15, 2007, 07:15:10 PM

Quote from: George on October 15, 2007, 07:08:04 PM
What is this Opera you speak of?

As in the plural of "Opus". Or the whole kit and kaboodle as we say around here.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: henry on October 15, 2007, 11:12:27 PM

any good recordings on period instruments?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on October 15, 2007, 11:28:37 PM

Quote from: henry on October 15, 2007, 11:12:27 PM
any good recordings on period instruments?

The Quatour Mosaiques are excellent in Op. 20. I'm a little less impressed with their Op. 33 and Op. 64, but there's more competition in those. They tend to be somewhat first violin dominated, which doesn't work as well for me in the later works.

I have the Quatour Festetics in Ops. 71 & 74. They are a little bland. Hard to find in any case.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 15, 2007, 11:36:15 PM

My three favorite, at this time, in this order:
Op. 77
Op. 20
Op. 17

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mozart on October 16, 2007, 12:02:43 AM

Quote from: DavidW on October 15, 2007, 07:12:50 PM
You probably can through amazon now that they sell music online by track. I like Op 76 #5.

Is that the d minor one with the annoying false ending in the first movement? Why does it always trick me...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: val on October 16, 2007, 01:28:48 AM

Quotehornteacher
Well he wrote a lot of them. I would very much like suggestions for a "Top 5" or "Top 10" list of Haydn String Quartets.

I woud suggest the opus 20/2 and 5 (Mosaiques Quartet), 33/3 (Lindsay Quartet), the opus 50/4 (Festetics Quartet), the opus 54/2 (Lindsay Quartet), the opus 74/3 (Alban Berg Quartet), the opus 76/ 2, 4 and 5 (Mosaiques Quartet), the opus 77/1 and 2 (Mosaiques Quartet).

But the best would be to listen to them all, in special the 6 opus 20, the 6 opus 33, the 6 opus 50, the 3 opus 54, the 3 opus 55, the 3 opus 71 and 3 opus 74, the 6 opus 76 and the 2 opus 77.

And, for further listening the 6 opus 17, the opus 42, the opus 51, and the 6 opus 64.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on October 16, 2007, 01:39:43 AM

Quote from: HandelHooligan on October 16, 2007, 12:02:43 AM
Is that the d minor one with the annoying false ending in the first movement? Why does it always trick me...

D minor with annoying false ending? Why oh why does that sound familiar? ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: hornteacher on October 16, 2007, 03:05:47 AM

Found this CD by the Lindsays:

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=13046

Will this work as a good introduction?

Gurn, any comments on the performance?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Grazioso on October 16, 2007, 03:23:09 AM

Gurn gave fine recs for starting out, but if you have a remote interest in Haydn or the string quartet genre, just buy 'em all, and you won't regret it. There are a few different complete sets available to make matters easy.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 16, 2007, 04:01:58 AM

Quote from: Daverz on October 15, 2007, 07:15:10 PM
As in the plural of "Opus". Or the whole kit and kaboodle as we say around here.

;D

Yes, as in opuses. His operas are about the only thing I haven't got into yet, but I'm thinking about it.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 16, 2007, 04:07:22 AM

Quote from: hornteacher on October 16, 2007, 03:05:47 AM
Found this CD by the Lindsays:

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=13046

Will this work as a good introduction?

Gurn, any comments on the performance?

No, sorry, never heard The Lindsays play Haydn. But hey, you have to start somewhere, I say, just go with it. Not that there aren't any bad performances of these works, but the good outweigh, and the differences in interpretation are there precisely to appeal to different tastes.

FWIW, my introduction was the complete set by the Kodaly's, and I am still satisfied til this day, even though I have lots of other single/double disks. Anyone who sneers at the Kodaly effort hasn't heard it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on October 16, 2007, 04:38:44 AM

Quote from: hornteacher on October 16, 2007, 03:05:47 AM
Found this CD by the Lindsays:

The Lindsays have gotten raves in Fanfare and ARG, and been trashed in other places. The problem, I think, is their intonation, and whether you'll find it tolerable. I don't care for their sound myself.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mark on October 16, 2007, 05:33:10 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 16, 2007, 04:07:22 AM
FWIW, my introduction was the complete set by the Kodaly's, and I am still satisfied til this day, even though I have lots of other single/double disks. Anyone who sneers at the Kodaly effort hasn't heard it. :)

I've heard the Kodaly Quartet in some of Haydn's String Quartets, and I must say I was impressed. There's a part of me that wavers between getting their complete cycle, or this one:

(http://www.paxmusic.co.kr/html/images/3201484.jpg)

FWIW, I consider Haydn's String Quartets to be my favourite of all his works, and I could listen to any number of them for hours. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on October 16, 2007, 08:53:16 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 16, 2007, 04:07:22 AM
FWIW, my introduction was the complete set by the Kodaly's, and I am still satisfied till this day, even though I have lots of other single/double disks. Anyone who sneers at the Kodaly effort hasn't heard it. :)

The Kodaly recordings certainly do not deserve to be sneered at, but I didn't found them to be fully satisfactory either.

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Peregrine on October 16, 2007, 09:00:06 AM

Quote from: Que on October 16, 2007, 08:53:16 AM
The Kodaly recordings certainly do not deserve to be sneered at, but I didn't found them to be fully satisfactory either.

Q

Agree, they're competent at best. Nothing less, nothing more...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: locrian on October 16, 2007, 09:07:30 AM

Quote from: Que on October 16, 2007, 08:53:16 AM
The Kodaly recordings certainly do not deserve to be sneered at, but I didn't found them to be fully satisfactory either.

Q

Why not?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on October 16, 2007, 09:26:34 AM

Quote from: sound sponge on October 16, 2007, 09:07:30 AM

Why not?

They seemed appealing at first, but I rather quickly lost interest in them. Too straight and sober, not so imaginative. Adequate.
They pale in comparison with the sparkle, exuberance, depth and the conveyance of Haydn's genius by the Festetics Quartet, to which I can listen endlessly.

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: locrian on October 16, 2007, 09:30:47 AM

Quote from: Que on October 16, 2007, 09:26:34 AM
They seemed appealing at first, but I rather quickly lost interest in them. Too straight and sober, not so imaginative. Adequate.
They pale in comparison with the sparkle, exuberance, depth and the conveyance of Haydn's genius by the Festetics Quartet, to which I can listen endlessly.

Is that a HIP quartet?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mark on October 16, 2007, 09:33:21 AM

Quote from: sound sponge on October 16, 2007, 09:30:47 AM
Is that a HIP quartet?

Does Que listen to anything other than HIP performers? ::) ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: locrian on October 16, 2007, 09:34:44 AM

Quote from: Mark on October 16, 2007, 09:33:21 AM
Does Que listen to anything other than HIP performers? ::) ;D

I believe so, yes.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on October 16, 2007, 09:35:00 AM

Quote from: sound sponge on October 16, 2007, 09:30:47 AM
Is that a HIP quartet?

Yep... 8)

Quote from: Mark on October 16, 2007, 09:33:21 AM
Does Que listen to anything other than HIP performers? ::) ;D

Yep... 8)

(But not in Haydn! ;D)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: locrian on October 16, 2007, 09:41:00 AM

Quote from: Que on October 16, 2007, 09:35:00 AM
Yep... 8)

You might be allowing the HIPness to color your opinion since you are one HIP dude.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on October 16, 2007, 10:02:00 AM

Quote from: sound sponge on October 16, 2007, 09:41:00 AM
You might be allowing the HIPness to color your opinion since you are one HIP dude.

If HIP delivers the results I'm looking for, there is no difference with any other preference. :)

But thank you for the compliment.. ;D...sounds cool... 8)
If I may quote you on that? :)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 16, 2007, 10:03:00 AM

Quote from: Que on October 16, 2007, 09:26:34 AM
They seemed appealing at first, but I rather quickly lost interest in them. Too straight and sober, not so imaginative. Adequate.
They pale in comparison with the sparkle, exuberance, depth and the conveyance of Haydn's genius by the Festetics Quartet, to which I can listen endlessly.

Q

Q,
Well, I don't know that they pale in comparison, but I'm a big fan of the Festetics too. But the OP wanted to make a start, and I did and do feel very confident that a couple of Kodaly disks would give him enough interest int eh music to think about paying big $$ for the Festetics (or even the QM). I was merely trying to suit my reply to the OP's intent. Now, if I was recommending something to YOU... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on October 16, 2007, 10:07:06 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 16, 2007, 10:03:00 AM
Q,
Well, I don't know that they pale in comparison, but I'm a big fan of the Festetics too. But the OP wanted to make a start, and I did and do feel very confident that a couple of Kodaly disks would give him enough interest int eh music to think about paying big $$ for the Festetics (or even the QM). I was merely trying to suit my reply to the OP's intent. Now, if I was recommending something to YOU... :D

8)

Gurn, but we agree - The Kodaly Qt is a fine and safe introduction to Hayn's SQ's! :)
I lost sight of the OP. ;D

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 16, 2007, 10:09:19 AM

Quote from: Que on October 16, 2007, 10:07:06 AM
Gurn, but we agree - The Kodaly Qt is a fine and safe introduction to Hayn's SQ's! :)
I lost sight of the OP. ;D

Q

Of course we agree. There are not two more kindred spirits! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: val on October 17, 2007, 03:41:16 AM

Quotesound sponge

You might be allowing the HIPness to color your opinion since you are one HIP dude.

In my case, I don't care if an interpretation claims to be HIP or not. I like the Lindsays in the opus 33, 54 and 55 and they are not HIP. And I like the Mosaiques (opus 20, 76, 77) or the Festetics (opus 50) that are HIP.

And I don't like much the Tatrai (not HIP) or the Solomon Quartet (HIP HIP).

What interests me is the quality of the interpretation, the balance, the articulation, the dynamic and how intense it is.

I always had serious doubts about the possibility of an HIP interpretation. Rachmaninov playing his 2nd piano concerto becomes an HIP interpretation?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: locrian on October 17, 2007, 05:23:25 AM

I listened to #2 last night and it was very fine.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41V3M653RAL._AA240_.jpg)

Now you people have me nosing around for more Haydn string quartets.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2007, 06:00:21 AM

Quote from: sound sponge on October 17, 2007, 05:23:25 AM
I listened to #2 last night and it was very fine.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41V3M653RAL._AA240_.jpg)

Now you people have me nosing around for more Haydn string quartets.

I should hope so! Those who haven't tried them simply don't know the treat they are missing. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: locrian on October 17, 2007, 06:02:48 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2007, 06:00:21 AM
I should hope so! Those who haven't tried them simply don't know the treat they are missing. :)

8)

I used to own a box of them by the Amadeus Quartet but so many people bitched about those recordings on this forum, that I sold it. Now, I realize that a box of "mediocre" Haydn string quartets is better than NONE!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2007, 06:05:50 AM

Quote from: sound sponge on October 17, 2007, 06:02:48 AM
I used to own a box of them by the Amadeus Quartet but so many people bitched about those recordings on this forum, that I sold it. Now, I realize that a box of "mediocre" Haydn string quartets is better than NONE!

And they probably weren't actually mediocre either. I don't know, but I've learned that lesson. Haydn's music is big enough to overcome even a Romantic approach (if that's what the bitching was about). Anyway, the Kodaly's are quite capable of drawing you into the Haydn Trap... ;D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: locrian on October 17, 2007, 06:08:59 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2007, 06:05:50 AM
And they probably weren't actually mediocre either. I don't know, but I've learned that lesson. Haydn's music is big enough to overcome even a Romantic approach (if that's what the bitching was about). Anyway, the Kodaly's are quite capable of drawing you into the Haydn Trap... ;D

Drawing me "back" in, but I know what you mean. I haven't listened to Haydn in a while. It's been too long. Side note: I just ordered Hamelin's Haydn piano sonatas.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on October 17, 2007, 09:43:03 AM

Quote from: val on October 17, 2007, 03:41:16 AM
I always had serious doubts about the possibility of an HIP interpretation. Rachmaninov playing his 2nd piano concerto becomes an HIP interpretation?

Thats sounds quite witty, but honestly does not make sense.
HIP tries to recreate the musical context of conception as historically accurate as possible.
But when a composer plays his own music (or any performer playing contemporary music) there is not much historical context to "recreate", is there? It is already there. :)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: val on October 18, 2007, 01:02:33 AM

QuoteQue

Thats sounds quite witty, but honestly does not make sense.
HIP tries to recreate the musical context of conception as historically accurate as possible.
But when a composer plays his own music (or any performer playing contemporary music) there is not much historical context to "recreate", is there? It is already there.

Yes, you are right. I was just giving an example "ad absurdum". But the point is that I don't believe, in art, in any kind of recreation of an historical style. HIP means only a modern tendency of interpretation. Any kind of musical interpretation depends on the personality of an artist of the present, according to techniques teached in the present, for a contemporary listener. Adolf Busch was HIP in 1935, Munchinger in 1955, Goebel in 1985, Koopman today.
When I was 15 years old I loved the Four Seasons played by Munchinger. Then came Marriner. And today I wouldn't dream of listening this work played in their style. I have Biondi and other modern interpreters. But it is always a matter of choices based in a modern sensibility. I don't care if Vivaldi played like Biondi, Huggett or Standage.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on October 18, 2007, 08:24:38 AM

Quote from: val on October 18, 2007, 01:02:33 AM
Yes, you are right. I was just giving an example "ad absurdum".

I thought as much! :)

QuoteBut the point is that I don't believe, in art, in any kind of recreation of an historical style. HIP means only a modern tendency of interpretation. Any kind of musical interpretation depends on the personality of an artist of the present, according to techniques teached in the present, for a contemporary listener. Adolf Busch was HIP in 1935, Munchinger in 1955, Goebel in 1985, Koopman today.
When I was 15 years old I loved the Four Seasons played by Munchinger. Then came Marriner. And today I wouldn't dream of listening this work played in their style. I have Biondi and other modern interpreters. But it is always a matter of choices based in a modern sensibility. I don't care if Vivaldi played like Biondi, Huggett or Standage.

Maybe this is not the appropriate thread for adiscussion on the meaning of HIP, so just a short reaction. :)
I feel HIP is an attempt to approximate an historical style. I don't think it's possible to recreate an historical style in absolute terms (100% correct), but I do feel it is possible to come closer to that ideal and that efforts to that effect bring me closer to the composer. Perhaps the idea to "recover" original performance practices is a very modern idea, fuelled by the changing of tastes. But I doubt if that means that HIP can be equated to modern taste. Maybe HIP influences modern taste, instead of the other way around? ;)

Personally I didn't like any Haydn before encountering HIP, and not much Bach or Mozart either. (And I do care if Vivaldi is played by Biondo or Huggett, but don't know if that has to do with a preference for HIP in general).

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on October 18, 2007, 08:46:19 AM

Quote from: Que on October 18, 2007, 08:24:38 AM
Maybe this is not the appropriate thread for adiscussion on the meaning of HIP, so just a short reaction. :)

Perhaps we should start a thread on the topic, as I for one would love to hear more about HIP and discuss it.

In fact, I did. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3920.new.html#new)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: val on October 19, 2007, 12:28:51 AM

QuoteGeorge

Perhaps we should start a thread on the topic, as I for one would love to hear more about HIP and discuss it.

Yes, I missed your previous thread.

But all this opened my appetite, so I am going to listen to the Festetics in the sublime opus 50/4.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on October 19, 2007, 07:42:25 AM

Quote from: val on October 19, 2007, 12:28:51 AM

Yes, I missed your previous thread.

The link is below. It's the text "In fact, I did." :)

Quote from: George on October 18, 2007, 08:46:19 AM
In fact, I did. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3920.new.html#new)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on October 20, 2007, 07:43:57 AM

So who do we like in Op. 33, people? :-\

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 20, 2007, 07:51:15 AM

Quote from: George on October 20, 2007, 07:43:57 AM
So who do we like in Op. 33, people? :-\

I like Quators Festetics a lot. But I haven't heard Quators Mosaiques yet... :-\

8)

----------------
Now playing: London Baroque / Medlam - Bach JS BWV 1036 Sonata in d for Flute, Violin & BC 2nd mvmt - Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on October 20, 2007, 07:52:44 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 20, 2007, 07:51:15 AM
I like Quators Festetics a lot. But I haven't heard Quators Mosaiques yet... :-\

8)

Not avail on amazon. :-[

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on October 20, 2007, 07:55:50 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 20, 2007, 07:51:15 AM
I like Quators Festetics a lot. But I haven't heard Quators Mosaiques yet... :-\

8)

----------------
Now playing: London Baroque / Medlam - Bach JS BWV 1036 Sonata in d for Flute, Violin & BC 2nd mvmt - Allegro

Where are you guys buying your Festetics CDs, anyway? :-\

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 20, 2007, 07:56:52 AM

Quote from: George on October 20, 2007, 07:52:44 AM
Not avail on amazon. :-[

ALL HIP performances go immediately OOP. This is a part of the allure of HIP (oops, wrong thread :-[ ). It's on Harmonia Mundi if that's any help.

8)

----------------
Now playing: London Baroque / Medlam - Bach JS BWV 1036 Sonata in d for Flute, Violin & BC 2nd mvmt - Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 26, 2007, 07:11:03 PM

Well, we have a Mozart and Beethoven thread under the HIP heading to reference, which I believe are invaluable resources for those interested in HIP recordings. So, I thought a Haydn one would also be of use. I do not have much HIP Haydn, so I will sit back and listen to you folks in "the know".

(Recommendations of Michael's works are also welcomed here.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on November 26, 2007, 10:07:02 PM

I second the Kuijken Paris symphonies, and the 5 CD black box on Virgin in general. His recordings of Haydn are a revelation. The Pinnock Sturm und Drang box is an obvious rec., but I find it slightly boring - it's as middle ground as you're going to find. I have a soft spot for the Goodman/Helios cycle. These recordings are very strong - they are not plagued by abysmal acoustics like Goodman's Nimbus recordings of Beethoven. They have a real zip to them, and a rougher edge than Kuijken. The harpsichord can become very prominent in the mix. I would recommend the disc with no.44 on for a sample.

The HIP quartet I enjoy most is the Mosaïques - I bought their cycle all in one go after hearing one disc, and it is beautiful from start to finish. The playing is ultra-smooth and refined, and they really dig inside the music. For HIP, they utilise a slightly slow-ish tempo. The sound quality is also amazing, it makes several leading alternatives sound downright murky until you adjust your ears.

The quartets are less important to hear HIP than the symphonies IMO (which is fortunate, as there is much less choice), and I find that the Mosaïques are competitive in every arena - even among traditional performances, fans of that style could find much to enjoy in QM.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Peregrine on November 26, 2007, 10:29:34 PM

Quote from: Lethe on November 26, 2007, 10:07:02 PM
I second the Kuijken Paris symphonies

Thirded! A super set, should be available quite cheaply as well. Really well played and conducted.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Grazioso on November 27, 2007, 04:15:19 AM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/410R099NX8L._AA240_.jpg)

Wispelwey and Florilegium in the cello concerti. Bliss 0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on November 27, 2007, 08:49:29 AM

Quote from: Peregrine on November 26, 2007, 10:29:34 PM
Thirded! A super set, should be available quite cheaply as well. Really well played and conducted.

And a 4th vote. But I strongly recommend going for the 5CD Virgin box that has all the Paris symphonies, plus 88-92. Wonderful performances of these masterpieces ..... my favourite is the Oxford.

I wish the Solomons set of S&D symphonies would be reissued ..... the first HIP interpretations and in many cases still the best. I also have several Hogwood versions of the middle symphonies. They received mixed criticism, but I enjoy them all. The raw HIP sound is great in things like the hunt finale of no 73.

Adam Fischer (now on Brilliant) is also supposed to be very good, but not sure of he qualifies as HIP.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JoshLilly on November 27, 2007, 08:53:21 AM

Quote from: Lethe on November 26, 2007, 10:07:02 PM
The Pinnock Sturm und Drang box is an obvious rec., but I find it slightly boring - it's as middle ground as you're going to find.

As a Pinnock fan, I have to admit I'm not overall in love with this box set, though I wouldn't dream of ditching it. I'm responding to point out what I consider the one major exception to your comment, in my opinion: the Symphony #48 in C in this box set is really hard-hitting and powerful. By far and away, for me this is the top recording of this symphony ever made. This is one to accelerate the pulse. It's clear, sharp, and has more emotional intensity than anything else in the set. This was a very disappointing experience for me, seeing as how Pinnock is seen by many (especially by himself, as I discovered...) as a Haydn expert. By the rendition of the Maria Theresa almost makes up for the whole thing.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on November 27, 2007, 09:10:41 AM

I'm not sure whether you have the Quatuor Mosaiques' take on the String Quartets, Bill; if not, I believe this should be your first purchase.

Forgive if you've already heard this from me 8,000,000 times.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Shrunk on November 27, 2007, 05:09:25 PM

Frances Bruggen's London symphonies are excellent, though I think they may be OOP.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on November 27, 2007, 11:18:47 PM

Quote from: JoshLilly on November 27, 2007, 08:53:21 AM
As a Pinnock fan, I have to admit I'm not overall in love with this box set, though I wouldn't dream of ditching it. I'm responding to point out what I consider the one major exception to your comment, in my opinion: the Symphony #48 in C in this box set is really hard-hitting and powerful. By far and away, for me this is the top recording of this symphony ever made. This is one to accelerate the pulse. It's clear, sharp, and has more emotional intensity than anything else in the set. This was a very disappointing experience for me, seeing as how Pinnock is seen by many (especially by himself, as I discovered...) as a Haydn expert. By the rendition of the Maria Theresa almost makes up for the whole thing.

I'm very happy to own it too, it's a very solid box, conservative interps notwithstanding :) I'll have to listen again to no.48, thanks for pointing it out :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: FideLeo on November 28, 2007, 12:07:19 AM

Quote from: JoshLilly on November 27, 2007, 08:53:21 AM

As a Pinnock fan, I have to admit I'm not overall in love with this box set, though I wouldn't dream of ditching it. I'm responding to point out what I consider the one major exception to your comment, in my opinion: the Symphony #48 in C in this box set is really hard-hitting and powerful. By far and away, for me this is the top recording of this symphony ever made. This is one to accelerate the pulse. It's clear, sharp, and has more emotional intensity than anything else in the set. This was a very disappointing experience for me, seeing as how Pinnock is seen by many (especially by himself, as I discovered...) as a Haydn expert. By the rendition of the Maria Theresa almost makes up for the whole thing.

Are you a Hogwood fan also? For me the Hogwood/AAM recordings of these symphonies (quite OOP) have significantly more extrovert interpretations than either those by Pinnock or particularly Bruggen. The most exhilarating account of "Maria Theresia" I have heard however was created by the inimitable Derek Solomon
and L'estro armonico in early HIP days. Those c alto horns are just wonderful.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on November 28, 2007, 09:50:28 AM

The three cornerstones of any Haydn collection are: the symphonies, the string quartets and the masses.
Add the concertos and keyboard sonatas, the piano trios and miscellaneous chamber music for extra enjoyment. :)

For the symphonies I have three favourites: Kuijken, Bruno Weil and Harnoncourt with the Concentus Musicus Wien. Kuijken is the most lyrical and intimate, Weil is lean, pungent and witty, Harnoncourt is the most forcefull and has the most dash. Slightly prefer the latter two to Kuijken.

Kuijken is available in an ultra-cheap box (Virgin) and a Japanese issue on DHM for the "London symphonies":

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/Oct02/Haydn_Symphonies_Kuijken_5CDVirgin.jpg) (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2003/Jan03/Haydn_Kuijken.htm) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51v%2B0QatwaL._SS500_.jpg)

Bruno Weil did 7 CD's on Sony, before they disgracefully pulled the plug when downsizing. They contained symphonies 41-47; 50-51; 64 & 65 and 82-90. I have gathered them all at some cost - it is high time that Sony reissued these!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NNS8ZSVAL._SS500_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51zhBar7nRL._SS500_.jpg)

Harnoncourt did some recordings with the Concentus Musicus Wien in the '90s for Warner/Teldec (he did the rest with the RCO), now reissued on Warners' budget line "Elatus", and recently the "Paris symphonies" on DHM:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w300/front/0/7151127.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/w300/front/0/7559125.jpg) (http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedia//images_produits/ZoomPE/5/2/2/0828766060225.jpg)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Expresso on November 29, 2007, 01:45:59 AM

I agree with Que's recommendations on Haydn symphonies, especially for Harnoncourt and Kuijken.

I recently got this one:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Lp8A4sdhL._SS400_.jpg)
Highly recommended.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Shrunk on November 29, 2007, 02:35:15 AM

Can't let these two go unmentioned:

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/92/921196.jpg)

Complete Piano Sonatas
Performed on fortepiano by Bart van Oort, Ursula Dutschler, Stanley Hoogland, Yoshiko Kojima and Riko Fukuda (not simultaneously, of course!)

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/92/923371.jpg)

Complete Piano Trios
The Van Swieten Trio

Both boxes on Brilliant Classics, incredible bargains to boot.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on November 29, 2007, 10:53:58 AM

Quote from: Expresso on November 29, 2007, 01:45:59 AM
I agree with Que's recommendations on Haydn symphonies, especially for Harnoncourt and Kuijken.

I recently got this one:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Lp8A4sdhL._AA240_.jpg)
Highly recommended.

That is an interesting new recording! Could you please eleborate a bit on it? :)
Do you know other recordings, how does it compare?

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Valentino on November 29, 2007, 11:17:31 AM

Now here is a thread I shall follow with great interest. And I would like to qualify a recording too:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Z8inDREkL._AA240_.jpg)

It's good that you cannot wear out a silver disk by playing it!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on November 29, 2007, 11:32:41 AM

Quote from: Shrunk on November 29, 2007, 02:35:15 AM
Can't let these two go unmentioned:

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/92/921196.jpg)

Complete Piano Sonatas
Performed on fortepiano by Bart van Oort, Ursula Dutschler, Stanley Hoogland, Yoshiko Kojima and Riko Fukuda (not simultaneously, of course!)

That seem an interesting set indeed! :)

This other, one-performer complete set by Christine Schornsheim has been praised for some time now.
Though most of the posts on this set were on the, now apparently lost, old forum.

(http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedia//images_produits/ZoomPE/1/4/0/4006408494041.jpg)

Like the Brilliant set, this is very attractively priced. Christine Schornsheim is an excellent, imaginative player, with a direct, lively and dashing style. She plays different keyboard instruments: a harpsichord (CD's 1-3), a clavichord (CD 4), another harpsichord for CD's 5 & 7, and two fortepiano's for CD's 6, 8-13. I liked the concept - it brings interesting variety to a large set like this.
Very much recommended!

And then there is of course Ronald Brautigam's complete keyboard works series on BIS, in separate issues. I'm not familiar with it, would welcome any comments! :)

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/07/513107.jpg) (http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/01/345201.jpg)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: MishaK on November 29, 2007, 12:53:27 PM

I would highly second the recommendation for the Kuijken set. Absolutely inspired performances, fantastically played. My top choice in every way, HIP or non-HIP. Totally re-opened my ears for Haydn.

Having observed Bruno Weil in rehearsal and his lack of preparation and musical leadership, I can't really recommend any of his work with a straight face.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on November 29, 2007, 12:56:29 PM

Quote from: O Mensch on November 29, 2007, 12:53:27 PM
I would highly second the recommendation for the Kuijken set. Absolutely inspired performances, fantastically played. My top choice in every way, HIP or non-HIP. Totally re-opened my ears for Haydn.

Thirded. A terrific set.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: FideLeo on November 29, 2007, 01:46:34 PM

Quote from: O Mensch on November 29, 2007, 12:53:27 PM
Having observed Bruno Weil in rehearsal and his lack of preparation and musical leadership, I can't really recommend any of his work with a straight face.

Oh I can - his Haydn Masses are my straightforward recommendation should anyone ask.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Expresso on November 29, 2007, 02:22:55 PM

Quote from: Que on November 29, 2007, 10:53:58 AM
That is an interesting new recording! Could you please eleborate a bit on it? :)
Do you know other recordings, how does it compare?

Q

I've also heard "Die Schopfung" by Karajan,Gardiner,Harnoncourt.

My first impressions from Christie's version after listening to it for the last 7-10 days are very positive.
It's faster than Karajan's, especially in the opening track "Die Vorstellung des Chaos". Karajan's version is 7:05 minutes while Christie's only 5:24. On the other tracks the tempo is not that faster. It never sounds rushed or "lighter" though.

The sound is very clear as expected from a new digital recording. The vocals are very prominent on the mix and that works well because the singing is very good from all the cast.
I've never heard any of the singers before in other recordings. Judging by the names most of the cast is German: Genia Kuhmeier (Gabriel), Toby Spence (Uriel), Dietrich Henschel (Raphael), Sophie Karthauser (Eva), Markus Werba (Adam).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: MishaK on November 29, 2007, 02:51:11 PM

Quote from: Expresso on November 29, 2007, 02:22:55 PM
I've also heard "Die Schopfung" by Karajan,Gardiner,Harnoncourt.

My first impressions from Christie's version after listening to it for the last 7-10 days are very positive.
It's faster than Karajan's, especially in the opening track "Die Vorstellung des Chaos". Karajan's version is 7:05 minutes while Christie's only 5:24. On the other tracks the tempo is not that faster. It never sounds rushed or "lighter" though.

The sound is very clear as expected from a new digital recording. The vocals are very prominent on the mix and that works well because the singing is very good from all the cast.
I've never heard any of the singers before in other recordings. Judging by the names most of the cast is German: Genia Kuhmeier (Gabriel), Toby Spence (Uriel), Dietrich Henschel (Raphael), Sophie Karthauser (Eva), Markus Werba (Adam).

Thanks for this tip. I have loved almost everything I have heard from Christie and I just heard Kühmeier perform a fantastic Pamina at the Met. I will have to look for this one.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on November 29, 2007, 08:41:11 PM

Quote from: fl.traverso on November 29, 2007, 01:46:34 PM
Oh I can - his Haydn Masses are my straightforward recommendation should anyone ask.

Seconded. Bruno Weil take on the masses is wonderful and my first choice for these works. With the contribution the Tölzer Knabenchor, which accounts for very lucid choral singing.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41M4N608A2L._AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4140W0DH4KL._AA240_.jpg)

EDIT:

For those who don't like boys choirs, and/or want their Haydn masses more severe and forcefull: Harnoncourt is your man.

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/Aug07/Haydn_Masses_2564699398.jpg)

REVIEW (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2007/Aug07/Haydn_Masses_2564699398.htm)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on November 29, 2007, 10:44:54 PM

Has anybody heard Thomas Fey's recordings on Hänssler? I've been thinking about buying some for a while, but I haven't seen them priced low enough to bite.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on November 30, 2007, 11:28:26 PM

Quote from: Lethe on November 29, 2007, 10:44:54 PM
Has anybody heard Thomas Fey's recordings on Hänssler? I've been thinking about buying some for a while, but I haven't seen them priced low enough to bite.

I haven't, but I've understood that is with a "hybrid" orchestra (not all period instruments) ?

Btw, I strongly support Shrunk's recommendation of the piano trios by the Van Swieten Trio!
Really, really superb - in fact, I think it's so good that is rather unlikely to be surpassed.
In a way it is a pity for the many excellent single issues by other performers (like Coin c.s.), because this complete set at bargain price is hard to beat.

! On Line Samples ! (http://www.kruidvatentertainmentshop.nl/epages/entertainment.storefront/47511f4c00624a12271dd5d385f40649/Cartridge/sl126403e5/ProductInfo/92794?category=nl_klassiek_top100)

Quote from: Shrunk on November 29, 2007, 02:35:15 AM
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/92/923371.jpg)

Complete Piano Trios
The Van Swieten Trio

Both boxes on Brilliant Classics, incredible bargains to boot.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: rubio on December 01, 2007, 12:42:20 AM

Quote from: Que on November 30, 2007, 11:28:26 PM
Btw, I strongly support Shrunk's recommendation of the piano trios by the Van Swieten Trio!
Really, really superb - in fact, I think it's so good that is rather unlikely to be surpassed.
In a way it is a pity for the many excellent single issues by other performers (like Coin c.s.), because this complete set at bargain price is hard to beat.

! On Line Samples ! (http://www.kruidvatentertainmentshop.nl/epages/entertainment.storefront/47511f4c00624a12271dd5d385f40649/Cartridge/sl126403e5/ProductInfo/92794?category=nl_klassiek_top100)

Q

I think this Van Swieten set is superb, as well. Are there other HIP chamber music CD's/sets (including piano/fortepiano) that are as good as this? If so, they will probably go on my wishlist!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on December 01, 2007, 12:44:01 AM

Quote from: Que on November 30, 2007, 11:28:26 PM
I haven't, but I've understood that is with a "hybrid" orchestra (not all period instruments) ?

It seems so. I've got the impression that it's a lot more authentic than Fischer, for eg., both due to slightly faster tempi and including some original instruments, rather than playing a standard orchestra in a lean way. At least some period instruments seems interesting, as he must've put some thought into which he kept modern, and which not, and giving him the benefit of the doubt, it could make for some really interesting interps.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 01, 2007, 05:46:30 AM

Quote from: Lethe on December 01, 2007, 12:44:01 AM
It seems so. I've got the impression that it's a lot more authentic than Fischer, for eg., both due to slightly faster tempi and including some original instruments, rather than playing a standard orchestra in a lean way. At least some period instruments seems interesting, as he must've put some thought into which he kept modern, and which not, and giving him the benefit of the doubt, it could make for some really interesting interps.

I have the first 6 of those disks. Mostly middle period works, with a few London/Paris mixed in. I think they are first rate, they playing and sound are very nice. The style is reminiscent of Tafelmusik/Weil, but I'm not sure about any period instruments in there. I downloaded them all (legally!) so I have no liner notes. Just great music. :) You can download a movement or two from www.eclassical.com and try them out. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing: Mozart - K 511 Rondo in a for Keyboard (HIP) - Ronald Brautigam

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on December 01, 2007, 05:48:20 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 01, 2007, 05:46:30 AM
I have the first 6 of those disks. Mostly middle period works, with a few London/Paris mixed in. I think they are first rate, they playing and sound are very nice. The style is reminiscent of Tafelmusik/Weil, but I'm not sure about any period instruments in there. I downloaded them all (legally!) so I have no liner notes. Just great music. :) You can download a movement or two from www.eclassical.com and try them out. :)

Perfect, danke!

Edit: Samples sound very good (good lengths too), but I noticed something which made me recall my main frustration with almost all of these sites - a Bruckner movement is the same price as a Haydn one. I wish they would charge by minute.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on December 02, 2007, 10:40:49 AM

Quote from: rubio on December 01, 2007, 12:42:20 AM
I think this Van Swieten set is superb, as well. Are there other HIP chamber music CD's/sets (including piano/fortepiano) that are as good as this? If so, they will probably go on my wishlist!

rubio, more sterling Haydn chamber music is on this wonderful 2CD-set with the baryton octets:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/4350781.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/4350781?rk=classic&rsk=hitlist)
click on picture for samples

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on December 02, 2007, 11:51:12 AM

Realised that I hadn't heard his take on the Paris set, so ordered them. This one has arrived so far:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GU3FtusKL._AA240_.jpg)

It has the same rugged playing as in his sturm und drang symphony recordings, although I'm not sure if it works quite as well in these works. Amazingly judicious use of drum in the Bear, even the minuet is like a military parade :) For HIP the tempi are broad, and there's an impression of the music being a struggle to a conclusion, rather than the effortless sounding playing of some well-drilled ensembles. The strings in particular sound less bright and precise than the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment, and the instrument levels are less perfectly balanced in the recording. As with other recordings in this cycle, the harpsichord's tinkling is quite prominent during some quiet parts - it's an enjoyable aspect of this series of recordings rather than a negative thing. Based on this disc, Goodman's Paris set seems a bit rough and impertinent compared to Kuijken, who really hit a magical spot in these syms, but the Goodman recordings are also great fun to listen to.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 02, 2007, 02:01:13 PM

Thanks for the review, Lethe.

For whatever reason, "rough and impertinent" is quite appealing to me in HIP performance. Somehow it seems more appropriate than perfect and slightly glossy. :) Guess I'll have to check out Goodman, I like their playing in a lot of other things, never heard them in Haydn. Need to fix that. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
K 622 Clarinet Concerto in A (Basset Clarinet) - Royal Liverpool PO / Goodman Nicholas Cox - K 622 Clarinet Concerto in A 3rd mvmt - Rondo: Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: M forever on December 02, 2007, 08:25:58 PM

This is one of my all-time favorite recordings of anything by anyone:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ZHJ2P442L._AA240_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: rubio on December 02, 2007, 10:22:07 PM

Quote from: Que on December 02, 2007, 10:40:49 AM
rubio, more sterling Haydn chamber music is on this wonderful 2CD-set with the baryton octets:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/4350781.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/4350781?rk=classic&rsk=hitlist)
click on picture for samples

Q

Thank you for the recommendation, Que. In general, I thought about any *sterling* recommendations for any HIP piano chamber music recording regardless of composer (in the same genre as the Van Swieten Haydn piano trios). Maybe that Mozartean players Mozart piano trios? I guess that one is also top-notch? :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: FideLeo on December 03, 2007, 12:35:56 AM

Quote from: rubio on December 02, 2007, 10:22:07 PM
Thank you for the recommendation, Que. In general, I thought about any *sterling* recommendations for any HIP piano chamber music recording regardless of composer (in the same genre as the Van Swieten Haydn piano trios).

For Haydn there is also a fp trio disc to be had - Levin/Beths/Bylsma (Sony). Very alert playing and Levin plays like a soloist here - Haydn's trios are literally sonatas for violin and fortepiano with b.c. on the cello.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 24, 2007, 10:06:14 AM

Quote from: Corey on December 24, 2007, 09:06:41 AM
Sets of Haydn's symphonies seem to be few and far between apart from sets of the London and Paris symphonies, as well as expensive sets of all his symphonies. If I were to collect all of them through reasonably-priced sets (HIP or otherwise, it doesn't matter), what/who should I go for? Is this even an aim one should pursue? :)

Corey,
If you're talking good quality, reasonably priced, readily available, there is really only one choice: Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra / Fischer (Brilliant, although mine is the original release on Nimbus). If you get a set of the London's that you really like to replace these (the first recorded, and the only weak spot), you will have a set you can be happy with for a long while. Long enough for Tafelmusik/Weil to finish their cycle? Well, that might never happen.... :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
BBC PO / Gunzenhauser - Dvorak Overture for Orchestra Op 91 In Natures Realm

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Don on December 24, 2007, 12:16:06 PM

Quote from: Corey on December 24, 2007, 09:06:41 AM
Sets of Haydn's symphonies seem to be few and far between apart from sets of the London and Paris symphonies, as well as expensive sets of all his symphonies. If I were to collect all of them through reasonably-priced sets (HIP or otherwise, it doesn't matter), what/who should I go for? Is this even an aim one should pursue? :)

To pursue a complete set is a personal decision. My decision has always been to pick and choose particular recordings, as I have zero interest in owning every Haydn symphony.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on December 24, 2007, 12:20:22 PM

I think the Fischer set is magnificent in very respect. Modern orchestra but HIP sounding. Some think the final dozen is weak but I think they are the highlight of one of the most comprehensive undertakings ever.

OTOH I don't like Dorati from what I have heard, sounds a bit rough and spotty.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: M forever on December 24, 2007, 06:56:09 PM

The Fischer set doesn't sound "HIP" at all. I wonder if most of the people who throw that "term" around at any given opportunity have even the slightest idea what that actually is. ::)
Fischer's ensemble is made up of musicians, for the most part, from Vienna and Budapest (I guess that's why it's called the "Austro-Hungarian" Haydn Orchestra... :D), the string playing is a very cultivated modern style - they play off the string way too much to be called "HIP" - and the oboes and horns are Viennese instruments, in fact, the AHHO could easily be mistaken for the Wiener Philharmoniker. In any case, they sound very good.
Fischer doesn't do superficial "HIP" stuff either, thankfully, because pseudo-HIP just doesn't make sense. His Haydn readings are smart and lean, very musical and enjoyable. I have had the set for quite a while and listen to more or less random symphonies once in a while. Apart from the fact that it is very impressive just how many good ideas Haydn had - I haven't heard all the symphonies yet but haven't come across any which aren't interesting -, so it makes sense to have a complete sense and discover them all, probably over a long time, this is also a very nice set of performances. Dorati's set, even though it had the distinction of being the first complete set, is inferior to this in every single respect.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on December 24, 2007, 07:43:36 PM

I was listening to the "Miracle" yesterday with Fischer and swore I was listening to a period instrument group...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: M forever on December 25, 2007, 05:21:55 AM

Well, PW, you also thought the Wiener Philharmoniker in Sibelius 2 sounded "like an American orchestra". This Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra is very close to the WP in wind sonorities and string playing style. According to you, what follows is that American orchestras sound like period ensembles. You will enhance your music listening considerably (to heighten your own appreciation and enjoyment) if you try to hear and think less in clichés but rather perceive the actual sounding substance. Just a well meant tip, not a mean put down.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Harry on December 25, 2007, 06:42:35 AM

Another vote for Fischer, allthough the performance of the later symphonies, after No. 82 disappointed me a little.
Mostly because of some tempi....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 25, 2007, 07:30:22 AM

Quote from: Harry on December 25, 2007, 06:42:35 AM
Another vote for Fischer, allthough the performance of the later symphonies, after No. 82 disappointed me a little.
Mostly because of some tempi....

I won't say I was disappointed by them, but with the later symphonies, I already had some performances (period instruments) that I really liked, so it was no trouble at all to integrate them into the rest of the absolutely wonderful Fischer set in the first 82. This was one of the best buys I ever made, and even if I had no other Haydn symphony recordings at all, I would be delighted with the entire box. I think the playing and sound are first rate, good enough that I don't care a bit that they are modern orchestra. I don't say that often... :)

8)

----------------
Now playing: The Nutcracker - Royal Concertgebouw / Dorati - Scene and Waltz of the Snowflakes

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Shrunk on December 25, 2007, 08:48:22 AM

Quote from: M forever on December 24, 2007, 06:56:09 PM
Fischer's ensemble is made up of musicians, for the most part, from Vienna and Budapest (I guess that's why it's called the "Austro-Hungarian" Haydn Orchestra... :D), the string playing is a very cultivated modern style - they play off the string way too much to be called "HIP" -

Could you explain what you mean by "play off the string"?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 12tone. on December 25, 2007, 09:25:27 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 24, 2007, 10:06:14 AM
Corey,
If you're talking good quality, reasonably priced, readily available, there is really only one choice: Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra / Fischer (Brilliant, although mine is the original release on Nimbus). If you get a set of the London's that you really like to replace these (the first recorded, and the only weak spot), you will have a set you can be happy with for a long while. Long enough for Tafelmusik/Weil to finish their cycle? Well, that might never happen.... :)

8)

Gurn,

Is there any sound discrepancies between the release from Nimbus and that of Brilliant or do they sound exactly the same?

I went to amazon and checked out these "Esterhazy Recordings" (one disc shown below) and they sound really good. Is this what the Brilliant discs sound like?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41RNSFPQR6L._AA240_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 25, 2007, 09:28:08 AM

Quote from: 12tone. on December 25, 2007, 09:25:27 AM
Gurn,

Is there any sound discrepancies between the release from Nimbus and that of Brilliant or do they sound exactly the same?

I went to amazon and checked out these "Esterhazy Recordings" (one disc shown below) and they sound really good. Is this what the Brilliant discs sound like?

(//)http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B0000037FN/ref=dp_image_0/002-7562561-8346438?ie=UTF8&n=5174&s=music

12,
Sorry, I don't know. I've never heard the Brilliants. I am 99% sure they weren't remastered or anything, so since they are digital, they should sound identical. Maybe someone else here has heard examples of both... :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:

The Nutcracker - Royal Concertgebouw / Dorati - e. Dance of the Reed Pipes

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 12tone. on December 25, 2007, 09:31:26 AM

Gurn,

It's just that I think I remember someone talking about sound transitions and that if a recorded piece goes from one label to the next, sound is lost and it could result in worse sound. I forget what that process is called...

Anyways, does that happen at all?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 25, 2007, 09:36:58 AM

Quote from: 12tone. on December 25, 2007, 09:31:26 AM
Gurn,

It's just that I think I remember someone talking about sound transitions and that if a recorded piece goes from one label to the next, sound is lost and it could result in worse sound. I forget what that process is called...

Anyways, does that happen at all?

AFAIK, since we are talking about 1's & 0's, it would be hard for me to see how it could happen. Back in the days of analog tapes and such, it makes much more sense. But if you took a blank CD and made a copy of any of your audio CD's, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference (if you have a decent burner) because there isn't any. One difference though, I got nice liner notes... :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
The Nutcracker - Royal Concertgebouw / Dorati - The Nutcracker, Op. 71, Act II, Tableau III - Waltz Of The Flowers

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on December 25, 2007, 09:45:24 AM

Let's get real here. Brilliant Classics barely have money to put those discs in the box, you think they have money to remaster ?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on December 25, 2007, 10:10:42 AM

M is right on, Fischer is not HIP, not at all. Very well played, but I seemed to recall he (Fischer) even made fun of HIP ensembles in the liner notes.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: M forever on December 25, 2007, 11:44:01 AM

Quote from: Shrunk on December 25, 2007, 08:48:22 AM
Could you explain what you mean by "play off the string"?

That means that they use bowing techniques like bouncing or lifting the bow off the string or coming down on it from the air. People in the 18th century played a whole lot more in or on the the string as can be seen from the types of bows they used which are very different from the types used since ca. 1800. The same applies to the treatment of note lengths. Post-1800 bows allow the player to sustain the note more after the attack.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Harry on December 25, 2007, 12:14:41 PM

Quote from: 12tone. on December 25, 2007, 09:25:27 AM
Gurn,

Is there any sound discrepancies between the release from Nimbus and that of Brilliant or do they sound exactly the same?

I went to amazon and checked out these "Esterhazy Recordings" (one disc shown below) and they sound really good. Is this what the Brilliant discs sound like?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41RNSFPQR6L._AA240_.jpg)

There is no difference in sound!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 12tone. on December 25, 2007, 12:55:27 PM

Thanks Harry!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: M forever on December 25, 2007, 02:37:50 PM

Apart from the facts that have already been pointed out - that most masters today are digital anyway, and that it is unlikely such a budget release would be "remastered" -, the whole "remastering" thing is pretty much only a buzzword because actually remastering a recording is very time consuming and a lot of "remastered" re-releases are just polished up, EQed a bit, but not actually "remastered". That said, these recordings don't need any work anyway, they sound quite nice. Which may be important to point out given that Nimbus have a record (pun!) of really bad sound, like what they did for the Hanover Band Beethoven recordings, for instance. But these Haydn recordings sound fine.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 25, 2007, 02:44:30 PM

Quote from: M forever on December 25, 2007, 02:37:50 PM
Apart from the facts that have already been pointed out - that most masters today are digital anyway, and that it is unlikely such a budget release would be "remastered" -, the whole "remastering" thing is pretty much only a buzzword because actually remastering a recording is very time consuming and a lot of "remastered" re-releases are just polished up, EQed a bit, but not actually "remastered". That said, these recordings don't need any work anyway, they sound quite nice. Which may be important to point out given that Nimbus have a record (pun!) of really bad sound, like what they did for the Hanover Band Beethoven recordings, for instance. But these Haydn recordings sound fine.

Yes, buying Nimbus is always a roll of the dice. Every time I read about those Beethoven symphonies it rubs salt in the wound, given that I really do quite like the performances... :-\

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Haydn Piano Trios - Trio 1790 - Hob XV:07 Trio in D for Piano & Strings 1st mvmt

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: M forever on December 25, 2007, 02:48:54 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 25, 2007, 02:44:30 PM
Every time I read about those Beethoven symphonies it rubs salt in the wound, given that I really do quite like the performances... :-\

If you like those performances, you deserve the bad sound ;D 8) $:) 0:) >:D ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 25, 2007, 02:53:51 PM

Quote from: M forever on December 25, 2007, 02:48:54 PM
If you like those performances, you deserve the bad sound ;D 8) $:) 0:) >:D ;)

:P

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Mendelssohn Piano Trios - Trio Fontenay - FMB Trio #2 in c for Piano & Strings Op 66 1st mvmt

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Josquin des Prez on December 25, 2007, 05:00:21 PM

Whatever you do, i strongly recommend you start from the last symphonies and go backwards from there. Trust me on this.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 25, 2007, 05:09:45 PM

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on December 25, 2007, 05:00:21 PM
Whatever you do, i strongly recommend you start from the last symphonies and go backwards from there. Trust me on this.

???

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Pleyel Piano Trios - Trio Joachim - Pleyel Trio Op 16 #5 in e for Piano & Strings 1st mvmt - Allegro molto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on December 25, 2007, 05:46:06 PM

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on December 25, 2007, 05:00:21 PM
Whatever you do, i strongly recommend you start from the last symphonies and go backwards from there. Trust me on this.

No, much too tidy for my tastes. I actually much better enjoy 'randomizing' Haydn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Josquin des Prez on December 26, 2007, 05:30:34 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 25, 2007, 05:46:06 PM
No, much too tidy for my tastes. I actually much better enjoy 'randomizing' Haydn.

Not much of a plan when nearly half of them aren't worth listening to more then several times.

To rectify, i'd also suggest you skip everything written in the mid 1770s and jump to the so called "Storm and Stress" symphonies once you get past the 1780s and 1790s.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on December 26, 2007, 05:40:33 AM

Corey,
I was looking at the Fischer set as well. However, I am waiting patiently for Brilliant to release Haydn's complete works and netting them that way and just have it all. Then I will go back and continue to add other recordings outside of this mega box set that I deem "truly brilliant". ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Josquin des Prez on December 26, 2007, 05:47:27 AM

Quote from: Corey on December 26, 2007, 05:40:19 AM
Thanks, but I think I'll listen to them all from the beginning and decide thatfor myself.

Have it your way, but don't complain when you get half-away through the set and find yourself completed disgusted of this music altogether.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on December 26, 2007, 05:49:32 AM

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on December 26, 2007, 05:47:27 AM
Have it your way, but don't complain when you get half-away through the set and find yourself completed disgusted of this music altogether.

Rest easy; it will come as a relief to you, to know that not everyone's experience of music duplicates your own.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on December 26, 2007, 05:50:16 AM

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on December 26, 2007, 05:30:34 AM
Not much of a plan when nearly half of them aren't worth listening to more then several times.

Still, "several" is a variable which will depend upon the individual.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on December 26, 2007, 05:51:36 AM

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on December 26, 2007, 05:47:27 AM
Have it your way, but don't complain when you get half-away through the set and find yourself completed disgusted of this music altogether.

That's a bit strong. I think the early symphonies are a great deal of fun. Once in a while there is a surprise here and there, like the extended flute solo in the finale of symphony number twenty-something (don't remember which one exactly). But one thing I'll say I never get BORED per say, unless I have to listen to more than 1 CD at a time. I think if you go at it like one or two CDs a week you'll find the early symphonies very much enjoyable.

I think anything after 60 or so is pretty much essential listening.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Kullervo on December 26, 2007, 05:53:29 AM

Quote from: Bogey on December 26, 2007, 05:40:33 AM
Corey,
I was looking at the Fischer set as well. However, I am waiting patiently for Brilliant to release Haydn's complete works and netting them that way and just have it all. Then I will go back and continue to add other recordings outside of this mega box set that I deem "truly brilliant". ;)

Complete works or just the symphonies, because they've already released a big box of the Fischer set.

http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Complete-Symphonies-Box-Set/dp/B00006GA50/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1198680738&sr=8-1

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on December 26, 2007, 06:03:40 AM

Quote from: Corey on December 26, 2007, 05:53:29 AM
Complete works or just the symphonies, because they've already released a big box of the Fischer set.

http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Complete-Symphonies-Box-Set/dp/B00006GA50/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1198680738&sr=8-1

Complete works. Knowing Brilliant, it may be more cost effective to go for the larger set. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on December 26, 2007, 06:06:43 AM

Is there a complete works box in the pipeline, Bill, or is that a pipedream? 8)

(A thrice-worthy pipedream, be it noted!)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on December 26, 2007, 06:19:19 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 26, 2007, 06:06:43 AM
Is there a complete works box in the pipeline, Bill, or is that a pipedream? 8)

(A thrice-worthy pipedream, be it noted!)

According to Harry there was at one point, and somehow he has direct access to the House of Orange-Nassau who should be "in the know" on something of such great importance. He did predict the Beethoven set....and might I say better than the local meteorologists that missed our winter snowstom that hit yesterday at predawn. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on December 26, 2007, 06:24:51 AM

Well, when it comes to the availability of recordings, Harry's authority is supreme :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on December 26, 2007, 06:32:38 AM

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on December 25, 2007, 05:00:21 PM
Whatever you do, i strongly recommend you start from the last symphonies and go backwards from there. Trust me on this.

Suffer from ocd much? >:D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on December 26, 2007, 06:33:26 AM

Yow! David is back in da house! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on December 26, 2007, 06:46:40 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 26, 2007, 06:24:51 AM
Well, when it comes to the availability of recordings, Harry's authority is supreme :D

I'm guessing he has a "beta" version already on the shelf Karl.

Quote from: karlhenning on December 26, 2007, 06:33:26 AM
Yow! David is back in da house! ;D

Coolness and bees knees all wrapped into one! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: (poco) Sforzando on December 26, 2007, 06:48:09 AM

Quote from: Corey on December 26, 2007, 05:40:19 AM
Thanks, but I think I'll listen to them all from the beginning and decide that for myself.

Good idea, as there are some marvelous pieces among the early works as well as some I can take or leave. The early trilogy of #6-8 (Le Matin, Le Midi, and Le Soir) #22, the "Philosopher," with its dignified opening movement featuring 2 English horns, #31, and #44, are only a few fine pieces that come immediately to mind. And though I admit I don't have the Fischer set right now, I have all the Doratis and I think there is much fine music-making there, whether or not the Fischers are "superior." A couple of years ago I went through the entire set in sequence, and I would hardly say I was "completed disgusted of this music altogether," quite the contrary. It was in fact fascinating to observe Haydn's evolution from the earlier works to the more mature masterpieces.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: BachQ on December 26, 2007, 12:15:44 PM

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on December 25, 2007, 05:00:21 PM
Whatever you do, i strongly recommend you start from the last symphonies and go backwards from there. Trust me on this.

I recommend starting from the middle (#52), and working concentrically outward from there (i.e., after 52, next would be 51 and 53; then 50 and 54 ....... etc .......)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Kullervo on December 26, 2007, 12:18:37 PM

Quote from: D Minor on December 26, 2007, 12:15:44 PM
I recommend starting from the middle (#52), and working concentrically outward from there (i.e., after 52, next would be 51 and 53; then 50 and 54 ....... etc .......)

Or go according to the symphonies whose number is closest in corresponding to the Fibonacci series. ;D >:D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Don on December 26, 2007, 12:43:56 PM

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on December 25, 2007, 05:00:21 PM
Whatever you do, i strongly recommend you start from the last symphonies and go backwards from there. Trust me on this.

My mom's best advice to me was - never pay attention to anyone who says "trust me". In addition I always feel that starting from the beginning is the best way to go (and I already did).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: BachQ on December 26, 2007, 02:02:06 PM

Trust me: your mom knows best ........

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on December 26, 2007, 04:01:23 PM

Quote from: Don on December 26, 2007, 12:43:56 PM
My mom's best advice to me was - never pay attention to anyone who says "trust me".

Excellent advice.

And (not at all coincidentally) "trust me" is one of ACD's/"davidzalman's" pet phrases, for instance.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 28, 2007, 06:02:59 AM

Quote from: Don on December 26, 2007, 12:43:56 PM
My mom's best advice to me was - never pay attention to anyone who says "trust me".

Quote from: karlhenning on December 26, 2007, 04:01:23 PM
Excellent advice.

Indeed...

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/gm2/Tweety_twust_me.jpg)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: ChamberNut on January 09, 2008, 04:51:44 AM

Discovering Haydn's string quartets for the first time. Starting off with sampling Naxos Kodaly Quartet, the Opus 76. This is terrific stuff!!! :)

I would like some recommendations for which are Haydn's best string quartets (perhaps 10-20), and some great recordings. I only have the Seven Last Words of Christ arranged for String Quartet in my collection, by the Emerson SQ. Love it!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Harry on January 09, 2008, 05:09:04 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on January 09, 2008, 04:51:44 AM
Discovering Haydn's string quartets for the first time. Starting off with sampling Naxos Kodaly Quartet, the Opus 76. This is terrific stuff!!! :)

I would like some recommendations for which are Haydn's best string quartets (perhaps 10-20), and some great recordings. I only have the Seven Last Words of Christ arranged for String Quartet in my collection, by the Emerson SQ. Love it!

I would say, all SQ are best. Haydn simply wrote no bad SQ.
As for recordings, I would recommend Kodaly on Naxos, but the latest releases on Brilliant with the Buchbergers are fantastic too, and much cheaper.
Excellent sound and stunning performances. They are somewhat fresher in approch, and played faster in general.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Handel on January 09, 2008, 07:28:37 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on January 09, 2008, 04:51:44 AM
Discovering Haydn's string quartets for the first time. Starting off with sampling Naxos Kodaly Quartet, the Opus 76. This is terrific stuff!!! :)

I would like some recommendations for which are Haydn's best string quartets (perhaps 10-20), and some great recordings. I only have the Seven Last Words of Christ arranged for String Quartet in my collection, by the Emerson SQ. Love it!

To me, both op. 20 and op. 76 are the best Haydn composed.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 09, 2008, 08:34:51 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on January 09, 2008, 04:51:44 AM
Discovering Haydn's string quartets for the first time. Starting off with sampling Naxos Kodaly Quartet, the Opus 76. This is terrific stuff!!! :)

I would like some recommendations for which are Haydn's best string quartets (perhaps 10-20), and some great recordings......

Well, I'd have to agree w/ the others that there is plenty to enjoy & discovery in the Haydn SQs - I've collected these works for years and now have most except the earliest ones - attached is a 'screen capture' from my classical music database - shows the Opus numbers & the discs that I currently own; but the forum has had many discussions on these works, so you will likely receive plenty & various recommendations - good luck in your choices - :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: ChamberNut on January 09, 2008, 08:40:30 AM

Wow, thanks everyone for your recommendations! :) Time to go hunting.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jwinter on January 09, 2008, 10:16:20 AM

FYI, this recording mentioned a few pages ago on this thread (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Divertimenti-Franz-Joseph/dp/B000001QBA/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1199905943&sr=1-6) is available for download from Amazon, $8.99 for 256 MP3.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41N11ZR3QFL._AA240_.jpg)

I haven't had the pleasure of hearing a baryton before, so I may check this out tonight. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on January 10, 2008, 12:59:28 PM

Quote from: Handel on January 09, 2008, 07:28:37 AM
To me, both op. 20 and op. 76 are the best Haydn composed.

Agreed. But get both the Kodaly ("modern") and the Quatuor Mosaiques (HiP). Might seem like alot, but with such incredible masterpieces, you won't regret it. Trust me on this.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on January 13, 2008, 10:07:03 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on January 09, 2008, 08:40:30 AM
Wow, thanks everyone for your recommendations! :) Time to go hunting.

Whatever you do, do not disregard Op. 77. It is my favorite. Probably Op. 20 after that. If you can find them cheaply enough, try Tátrai String Quartet's recordings. I believe George enjoys these as well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 13, 2008, 10:16:51 AM

Quote from: Bogey on January 13, 2008, 10:07:03 AM
Whatever you do, do not disregard Op. 77. It is my favorite. Probably Op. 20 after that. If you can find them cheaply enough, try Tátrai String Quartet's recordings. I believe George enjoys these as well.

Yes, Op 77 & 103 are first rate. I will interject here that I have Tatrai's Op 76, and despite the wonderful playing, I find the tempi to be too much on the slow side, so the sprightly spirit of the works goes wanting. But anyway...

I just got this Op 77 last week, and I love it:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5109XV5EEDL._AA240_.jpg)

Very recommended! :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Beethoven 9ths - Chicago Symphony/Solti - Beethoven Symphony #9 in d Op 125 3rd mvmt

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on January 13, 2008, 10:36:04 AM

I heard this group live when they were artist in residence at my school for awhile so I may be partial but I think this is a wonderful disc:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41DJ7QNSR8L._AA240_.jpg)
now available for about $7 for 2cds.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 13, 2008, 11:10:25 AM

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on January 13, 2008, 10:36:04 AM
I heard this group live when they were artist in residence at my school for awhile so I may be partial but I think this is a wonderful disc:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41DJ7QNSR8L._AA240_.jpg)
now available for about $7 for 2cds.

The picture is really dark, PW. Is that the Endellion? :)

8)
----------------
Now playing:
Beethoven 9ths - Chicago Symphony/Solti - Beethoven Symphony #9 in d Op 125 4th mvmt

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Harry on January 13, 2008, 11:18:02 AM

Has anyone even heard the Brilliant recordings from the Buchbergers, that got overall rave reviews?
Or am I the only one that likes them very much, on this forum? :o
I posted the first 5 volumes, but nobody seemed eager to try them out, well, maybe I did not write well enough about them, allthough I praised them highly. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on January 13, 2008, 12:20:36 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 13, 2008, 11:10:25 AM
The picture is really dark, PW. Is that the Endellion? :)

8)
----------------
Now playing:
Beethoven 9ths - Chicago Symphony/Solti - Beethoven Symphony #9 in d Op 125 4th mvmt

Yes indeed Gurn. They are some of the nicest people you'll ever meet.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 13, 2008, 12:20:57 PM

Quote from: Harry on January 13, 2008, 11:18:02 AM
Has anyone even heard the Brilliant recordings from the Buchbergers, that got overall rave reviews?
Or am I the only one that likes them very much, on this forum? :o
I posted the first 5 volumes, but nobody seemed eager to try them out, well, maybe I did not write well enough about them, allthough I praised them highly. :)

I know Sonic got at least some of them. He was also very complimentary. I am very slow to upgrade my Kodaly's, I am being pretty picky, since I like them and I don't have a real need unless I find something exceptional (preferably HIP). :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Beethoven 9ths - Chicago Symphony/Solti - Beethoven Symphony #9 in d Op 125 4th mvmt

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on January 13, 2008, 12:27:20 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 13, 2008, 12:20:57 PM
I know Sonic got at least some of them. He was also very complimentary. I am very slow to upgrade my Kodaly's, I am being pretty picky, since I like them and I don't have a real need unless I find something exceptional (preferably HIP). :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Beethoven 9ths - Chicago Symphony/Solti - Beethoven Symphony #9 in d Op 125 4th mvmt

What do think about the Angeles set Gurn? Looks like a complete set and asking for only about $4 per disc ?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on January 13, 2008, 12:56:17 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 13, 2008, 10:16:51 AM
Yes, Op 77 & 103 are first rate. I will interject here that I have Tatrai's Op 76, and despite the wonderful playing, I find the tempi to be too much on the slow side, so the sprightly spirit of the works goes wanting. But anyway...

I just got this Op 77 last week, and I love it:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5109XV5EEDL._AA240_.jpg)

Very recommended! :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Beethoven 9ths - Chicago Symphony/Solti - Beethoven Symphony #9 in d Op 125 3rd mvmt

Let me know if you ever want to dump the Tatrai's Op 76. One of the few I need to complete their cycle. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 13, 2008, 04:06:56 PM

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on January 13, 2008, 12:27:20 PM
What do think about the Angeles set Gurn? Looks like a complete set and asking for only about $4 per disc ?

I haven't heard it, PW, but DavidW had it and liked it a lot, even dumping his other recordings after he got it. I would like to try a disk or 2 before making the commitment, I guess. I've been waiting patiently for the Brilliant Haydn "Big Box", figuring I will get the complete set by the Buchbergers there. meanwhile, I've been trying to pick up whatever HIP recordings I can find. I rather favor the Festetics, their Op 33 is very nice. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Clara Schumann - Alma Mahler Sinfonietta-Francesco/Rinaldi-Nicolosi - Op 7 Piano Concerto in a - 2nd mvmt-Romanze-Andante ono troppo con Grazia

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 13, 2008, 04:14:25 PM

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on January 13, 2008, 10:36:04 AM
I heard this group live when they were artist in residence at my school for awhile so I may be partial but I think this is a wonderful disc:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41DJ7QNSR8L._AA240_.jpg)
now available for about $7 for 2cds.

I own that 2-CD set (post #132 a page back) & will second the recommendation - great bargin & excellent performances - :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on January 13, 2008, 04:23:04 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on January 13, 2008, 04:14:25 PM
I own that 2-CD set (post #132 a page back) & will second the recommendation - great bargin & excellent performances - :D

Our Andy is cukoo for Coco Puffs over this one. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on January 14, 2008, 05:08:58 AM

Quote from: Bogey on January 13, 2008, 10:07:03 AM
Whatever you do, do not disregard Op. 77. It is my favorite. Probably Op. 20 after that. If you can find them cheaply enough, try Tátrai String Quartet's recordings. I believe George enjoys these as well.

I'm crazy about op.77, but I only have the Kodaly. Will be checking the Tarai for sure.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on January 14, 2008, 05:09:55 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 13, 2008, 11:10:25 AM
The picture is really dark, PW. Is that the Endellion? :)

8)
----------------
Now playing:
Beethoven 9ths - Chicago Symphony/Solti - Beethoven Symphony #9 in d Op 125 4th mvmt

Yeah, good one, Gurn!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on January 14, 2008, 05:10:43 AM

Quote from: Bogey on January 13, 2008, 10:07:03 AM
Whatever you do, do not disregard Op. 77. It is my favorite. Probably Op. 20 after that. If you can find them cheaply enough, try Tátrai String Quartet's recordings. I believe George enjoys these as well.

Yes, he does. And that's saying quite a bit, as I am very picky about my Haydn. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on January 14, 2008, 05:12:15 AM

Quote from: George on January 13, 2008, 04:23:04 PM
Our Andy is cukoo for Coco Puffs over this one. :D

JA! George beat me to it! That cd have really intense sound...the type that makes it easily accessible.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on January 14, 2008, 05:14:22 AM

Quote from: Haffner on January 14, 2008, 05:12:15 AM
JA! George beat me to it! That cd have really intense sound...the type that makes it easily accessible.

Next time it's on sale, it goes straight into my collection.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Martin Lind on February 16, 2008, 06:06:44 PM

I consider seriously the complete Haydn symphonies with Fischer. I have already 9 CDs with symphonies of Haydn, well, not all of them are masterpieces, but I would like to have the complete set. Opinions?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 16, 2008, 06:29:10 PM

Martin - please do a search on 'Haydn Symphonies'; there are plenty of threads & posts already in existence to get you started; one specifically that discusses the Fischer (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,5077.0.html) set you mentioned - always best to do a little searching first, esp. if the topic is likely a popular & common one. Welcome aboard, and I'm sure you'll receive plenty of responses! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Tyson on February 16, 2008, 08:32:29 PM

Fischer is very good at the middle symphonies, from about 20 to 80, but 80-104 are too heavy and thick sounding. Bruggen and Harnoncourt are your best options in those.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on February 16, 2008, 11:27:52 PM

Hi Martin. It may be a bad idea to buy a complete set if you are not yet sure of Haydn's value - certainly a lot of the symphonies are slightly lower in inspiration than the famous ones (although to somebody who loves Haydn, this is not a problem, and every work has much to engage the listener).

Perhaps consider purchasing sets of "named" symphonies - such as London, Paris and Sturm und Drang. There is a nice set for the S&D symphonies by Pinnock on DG/Archiv which covers quite a lot of his famous "middle" output. Then for earlier symphonies, perhaps buy single discs which have good reviews. This method of collecting will probably not be cheaper than Fischer, but it will give you the symphonies in a wider variety of performers/styles without missing out on any major works.

Edit: The Fischer is of course very good, though. I forgot to mention this :) It is also very cheap, but as previously mentioned, the later symphonies will need supplementing, as they are weaker performances (I recommend a cheap box with Kuijken on Virgin for the Paris set). The Pinnock S&D set versus the Fischer depends on your tastes - Fischer uses a larger orchestra.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: BorisG on February 17, 2008, 01:22:51 PM

Kuijken, Beecham, Szell.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 17, 2008, 02:08:47 PM

Quote from: Dm on February 16, 2008, 07:53:37 PM
......... In fact, I'm tempted to start a new Haydn Symphony Thread as I type ........

Dm - LOL ;D - please, if you do, don´t pick the Symphonies or SQs - ;) How about his works for the baryton? :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on February 19, 2008, 12:24:58 AM

I have recently purchased the Kuijken versions of the Paris and London symphonies, and I am very impressed.
I know most of these symphonies very well, via Szell, Bernstein, Dorati, Marriner and Harnoncourt, but Kuijken's approach
with a smaller HIP band reveals a lot that I was missing previously. Also, his choice of tempos and general rythmic
impetus is normally very well judged, except for the menuets which he tends to take too fast for my taste.

These days, the price of CD's has dropped so much that it is not too expensive to have 2 versions of these works ....
one HIP and one "traditional" (Davis, Jochum, Bernstein, etc). The contrasts are fascinating .......

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Tyson on February 22, 2008, 02:36:40 PM

Kuijken is very good (for the reasons you mention), and I rec it for the same reasons. Bruggen is similar in strengths, and just a bit better, IMO, with a light touch, but not always so fast fast fast, and a bit more character in phrasing and better use of dynamic contrasts. Might be hard to find, but very much worth tracking down.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: rickardg on March 27, 2008, 04:03:32 AM

I thought I'd revive this great thread by pointing out that jpc has a ten minute video of Die Schöpfung with Les Arts Florissants and William Christie. Nothing special, and in my case the audio wasn't even synced with the video which made for some humorous moments, but it really made me want play in an orchestra or sing in a choir again.
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0094639523528.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/6773436)
(Picture is link)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Expresso on March 28, 2008, 01:48:59 AM

I have that recording. Now that i see the video, i understand much more about it.
It seems that everybody in the orchestra and the chorus are enjoying their playing and Haydn's work. It sounds very joyfull.

I really liked the casual clothing 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on June 24, 2008, 03:17:10 AM

Quote from: SonicMan on June 21, 2008, 04:41:21 PM
Hello Bill - good evening & glad to see you posting more again! :D

Concerning the Haydn Baryton Trios - not even close - the pic shown in my post is just one disc; Haydn wrote over 120 'Baryton Trios' - his employer, Prince Nick Esterhazy was an amateur baryton player and demanded much, hence the VAST output from a dependable Joe! :) ;D

In addition, Haydn wrote other compositions for the baryton, so his 'complete output' in this instrumental genre would require a LARGE set of discs - in addition to the CD shown, I have two discs w/ John Hsu (one below on the ASV label); I also have the 2-CD set below (right) of Baryton Octets w/ the Ricercar Consort, basically Divertimenti which include the baryton (not sure w/o doing some comparsions whether these are transcriptions from other Haydn works?) - Dave

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XSQQ0MVML._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/253319661_LWCUE-M.jpg)

Spotted a new recording of baryton trios by Haydn.
Though (unfortunately) performed on violin (Pablo Valetti), alto (Patricia Gagnon) and cello (Petr Skalka).

(http://fugalibera.com/data/cds/309/BIG.JPG) (http://fugalibera.com/readmorecd.php?id=309&langue=en)
[mp3=200,20,0,left]http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fugalibera.com%2Fdata%2Fcds%2F309%2Fclip.mp3[/mp3]

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: FideLeo on June 24, 2008, 03:53:17 AM

Quote from: Que on June 24, 2008, 03:17:10 AM

Spotted a new recording of baryton trios by Haydn.
Though (unfortunately) performed on violin (Pablo Valetti), alto (Patricia Gagnon) and cello (Petr Skalka).

(http://fugalibera.com/data/cds/309/BIG.JPG) (http://fugalibera.com/readmorecd.php?id=309&langue=en)

Unfortunate re-scoring yes but the cover picture by Élisabeth-Louise Vigée-Le Brun (a self portrait) is as delightful as ever. :)

ps. A Warner box of Harnoncourt's previous recordings of middle Haydn symphonies with Concentus musicus has been released at the low price point. Good to hear them again!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on June 26, 2008, 03:10:43 AM

And yet another vote for Kuijken. I have the 2 box sets 82-92, and 93-104 and they are wonderful. A terrific contrast to other versions that I have with traditional ensembles (Harnoncourt, Bernstein, Mackerras). No Haydn-lover should be without Kuijken's collections ....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: FideLeo on June 26, 2008, 05:22:11 AM

Quote from: alkan on June 26, 2008, 03:10:43 AM
And yet another vote for Kuijken. I have the 2 box sets 82-92, and 93-104 and they are wonderful. A terrific contrast to other versions that I have with traditional ensembles (Harnoncourt, Bernstein, Mackerras). No Haydn-lover should be without Kuijken's collections ....

Hopefully no one has forgotten about Bruggen and Jacobs here. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: M forever on June 26, 2008, 02:50:46 PM

Quote from: traverso on June 24, 2008, 03:53:17 AM
A Warner box of Harnoncourt's previous recordings of middle Haydn symphonies with Concentus musicus has been released at the low price point.

I can't find that anywhere.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bunny on June 26, 2008, 04:11:07 PM

Try Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Symphonies-93-104-Franz-Joseph/dp/B000FO6KVY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1214525311&sr=1-1)! I only know of the earlier recordings with the Concertgebouw that have been released as a box set, but I'll keep checking.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bunny on June 26, 2008, 04:25:58 PM

Okay, the only box set of Haydn I've found with the CMW is the Paris Symphonies. The only recordings of the middle period symphonies I can find with the CMW are not in a box set.

There is also a box set of the Haydn Masses with the CMW, but that's all I could locate.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bunny on June 26, 2008, 04:27:18 PM

Have you found the recording of the Symphonies 45 & 60? That's hanging around in various places, but I can't find hide nor hair of any others.

(http://cdn.7static.com/static/img/sleeveart/00/000/093/0000009349_350.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 26, 2008, 04:30:59 PM

I can't find it either, but I suspect that it has only been announced and not actually released yet, at least not in North America. So, I shall patiently await... certainly don't want to try and put together the singles. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Bruckner 5tets - Melos Quartet / Santiago - Bruckner Quintet in F for Strings 4th mvmt

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bunny on June 26, 2008, 04:31:53 PM

M, Traverso is back in Taiwan. He's probably seen this there, but we in the US can only hope that it will be released here. He is a genius at finding excellent music that is impossible to source outside Asia. So sad!

Aha! Just as I thought: the listing at HMV Japan (http://www.hmv.co.jp/product/detail/2701345).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bunny on June 26, 2008, 04:33:28 PM

Gurn, those Warner sets are not always released in the USA. For some reason Warner only releases them in Europe and Asia; and if they are released here they are released at much, much, much higher prices. >:(

Also available through HMV UK priced at £17.99. Better shipping prices than HMV Japan.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on June 26, 2008, 09:22:53 PM

Quote from: traverso on June 24, 2008, 03:53:17 AM
ps. A Warner box of Harnoncourt's previous recordings of middle Haydn symphonies with Concentus musicus has been released at the low price point. Good to hear them again!

Also at jpc for €27 (click picture)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0825646965069.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/3861402?rk=classic&rsk=hitlist)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: маразм1 on September 16, 2008, 11:03:48 AM

http://www.russiandvd.com/store/product.asp?sku=33973&lang=eng

this recording is great because it features the original intended instrument -- keyed trumpet. I read that it is nearly unplayable by todays standards, but it sounds really great: nice and mellow. Interesting is that all the trills in the recording are lipped. Considering how difficult and unfriendly this instrument is, great great job, Mark Bennett!

d.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on September 18, 2008, 07:18:31 PM

I have that recording too; marvelous! The oboe concerto is great fun as well. Here it is at Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Concertos-Oboe-Trumpet-Harpsichord/dp/B0000057DU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1221794382&sr=1-1). Highly recommended.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 19, 2008, 09:04:48 AM

These could be two (or 20) very attractive additions for any Haydn collection:

The first one:
Haydn, Klavierstücke (complete). Fantasias-Variations-Dances-The Seven Last Words
Format: 5 CD
Label: Brilliant Classics
Bart van Oort performs on a fortepiano after Walter (ca. 1795) by Chris Maene (Ruiselede, 2000).
Very informative 22 pages booklet by the fortepianist Sylvia Berry.
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/2243938?rk=classic&rsk=hitlist

The second:
Haydn: Complete Music for Solo Keyboard
Format: 15CD
Label: Bis
Performer: Ronald Brautigam (fortepiano)
This box set (at budget price) includes: Complete Sonatas Nos. 1-62, Capriccio, Fantasia, Variations, Adagios Minuets, German Dances, Marches.
http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=7746764&style=classical
or
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/3464391
(All tracks on Naxos' website)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on September 19, 2008, 01:33:22 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on September 19, 2008, 09:04:48 AM
Haydn: Complete Music for Solo Keyboard
Format: 15CD
Label: Bis
Performer: Ronald Brautigam (fortepiano)
This box set (at budget price) includes: Complete Sonatas Nos. 1-62, Capriccio, Fantasia, Variations, Adagios Minuets, German Dances, Marches.
http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=7746764&style=classical
or
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/3464391
(All tracks on Naxos' website)

Bugger me, that's cheap. Thank you for pointing it out :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 19, 2008, 04:28:37 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on September 19, 2008, 09:04:48 AM
These could be two (or 20) very attractive additions for any Haydn collection:
Haydn: Complete Music for Solo Keyboard
Format: 15CD
Label: Bis
Performer: Ronald Brautigam (fortepiano)
This box set (at budget price) includes: Complete Sonatas Nos. 1-62, Capriccio, Fantasia, Variations, Adagios Minuets, German Dances, Marches.
http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=7746764&style=classical
or
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/3464391
(All tracks on Naxos' website)

I put this one on my wishlist, as it hasn't been released here yet. I have a dozen or so on the sonatas that I bought at eclassical, and I must say, Brautigam has a very nice touch with Haydn, I enjoy them all a tad more than I do Schornscheim. BIS had said they wouldn't be releasing this set, sticking with the single disks, so it is very nice to see that they have changed their mind about it. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
The Music Collection - Hummel Sonata in Eb for Piano & Viola Op 5 #3 1st mvmt

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on September 19, 2008, 08:57:47 PM

Quote from: 12tone. on November 26, 2007, 09:31:06 PM
...You actually need a WDP (wooden disc player) to play this, but seeing as this product came before the WDP, you'll need an add-on. This is from the WP (wood player) monophonic playback to livesound device which early engineers used to record Haydn conducting his orchestra playing symphony #45. Unfortunately, due to data transfers and storage capacities only 4 seconds of the symphony were recorded!

(http://www.the-digital-audio.co.uk/wood02.jpg) !!!!!

. . .

:o

Serious? Is this some sort of joke? There's actually a woodblock recording this old of Haydn himself??? Anyone know more about this?

Oh, for Haydn's harpsichord concerti there's this:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21D6DEBGBVL._SL500_AA130_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Harpsichord-Concertos/dp/B0000041CY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1221886857&sr=1-1)

A bit bland, but it's the only set out there like it (unless I'm missing something, which is always a possibility ;D).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on September 20, 2008, 12:25:22 AM

New re-release in this series:

(https://secure.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/2564695628.jpg)

Doubtful if it can be called HIP though. I'm considering it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on September 20, 2008, 12:49:25 AM

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/7318591731337.jpg)

This Brautigam reissue is great news! (And the price is great too... ;D)
Thanks, Antoine, for pointing this out! :)
If Gurn prefers Brautigam to Schornsheim - who is already downright excellent - we're in for a treat!

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Valentino on October 22, 2008, 11:39:29 AM

I recently bought Quatour Mosaïques Op. 64 set. Superb stuff.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bruckner is God on November 18, 2008, 03:13:14 PM

Can anyone recomend a recording of these works?
Preferably a modern recording with good sound.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Todd on November 18, 2008, 03:27:26 PM

Modern (and HIP): Quatour Mosaiques

Older, traditional: Budapest Quartet (on United Archives)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bruckner is God on November 18, 2008, 03:37:54 PM

Thanks.
What about the Naxos discs with the Kodaly Quartet?
I've heard great things about these recordings, and they are cheap.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 18, 2008, 03:38:11 PM

Modern (and HIP): Quatour Mosaiques (vote #2)

More modern than the Budapests: Tokyo String Quartet (on Sony Essential Classics) from the same era as their definitive recording of Op 50.

Dark horse pretty modern: Carmina Quartet (on Denon). Best recording you never heard of. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Haydn String Quartets Op 20 - Kodaly Quartet - Haydn Quartet in D for Strings No 27 Op 20 4 1st mvmt

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Todd on November 18, 2008, 03:39:07 PM

Quote from: Bruckner is God on November 18, 2008, 03:37:54 PMWhat about the Naxos discs with the Kodaly Quartet?

Very good; they could serve as a good entry point into this music. (The entire cycle is now available for $100, to boot.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 18, 2008, 03:40:46 PM

Quote from: Bruckner is God on November 18, 2008, 03:37:54 PM
Thanks.
What about the Naxos discs with the Kodaly Quartet?
I've heard great things about these recordings, and they are cheap.

Nothing at all wrong with them. As you see, I am listening to them right now! In Op 76 they have more competition, since it is considered to be the pinnacle of Haydn's SQ oeuvre. If a quartet only recorded 1 opus, this will probably be it. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Kodaly Quartet - Haydn Quartet in D for Strings No 27 Op 20 4 1st mvmt

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Josquin des Prez on November 18, 2008, 03:46:47 PM

Modern (and HIP): Quatour Mosaiques

Older, traditional: Tatrai Quartet (Hungaroton)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: adamdavid80 on November 18, 2008, 03:52:18 PM

Don't know if it's available, but I know 77 is NAILED by the Smithson with Jaap Schroeder leading the way.

That being said, anything with the Quatour Mosaiques is bound to be great (I only have their Mozart Hunt, but, hey, it's Christopher Coin...he can sneeze and it's music). (the late lamented M strongly recommended his Haydn cello concerto, and he couldn't have been more right)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Solitary Wanderer on November 18, 2008, 04:01:01 PM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/417KFJ1NJRL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I too, have this version and can happily recommend it :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on November 18, 2008, 11:15:56 PM

Quote from: Todd on November 18, 2008, 03:27:26 PM
Modern (and HIP): Quatour Mosaiques

Older, traditional: Budapest Quartet (on United Archives)

Please note that United Archives reputedly are going out of business due to imminent changes in French copyright law; so move quickly!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: val on November 19, 2008, 01:25:47 AM

My choice: the Mosaiques Quartet.

In second place: the Amadeus Quartet.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on November 19, 2008, 11:09:28 AM

IMO it's useless in this kind of repertoire to recommend one recording as the one that nails it.

Haydn's opus 76 are major works, something like Beethoven 9. You can have various recordings and you really need to try and catch every live performance of these pieces you can.

Three great recordings: Budapest on United Archives, Tatrai on Hungarton, and Mosaiques for a HIP perspective.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bulldog on November 19, 2008, 11:17:58 AM

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on November 18, 2008, 03:46:47 PM
Modern (and HIP): Quatour Mosaiques

Older, traditional: Tatrai Quartet (Hungaroton)

That's also how I see it. The Tatrai would be my first choice.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Peregrine on November 19, 2008, 01:27:03 PM

Tatrai and Panocha

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on November 19, 2008, 02:18:04 PM

The Panocha Quartet also did a very good set of Op. 76.

One of the most delightful Haydn quartet recording I've ever heard is the Hungarian Quartet doing 76/2. I wonder if they did the whole set.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: dirkronk on November 19, 2008, 04:53:52 PM

Opus 76 has been VERY lucky in having many fine proponents and performances on record through the years. Among early/mono recordings, the Hollywood Quartet's take on 76/2 and the Budapest in 76/3 and 4 come to mind. I have the Hungarian Quartet and the Quartetto Italiano doing some of these, as well. Like several others here, I'm a fan of the complete set by the Tatrai--their rugged and obvious joy in the music never fails to stir the blood--and I recommend it, but have to say that if the OP wants more recent sonics, he may do somewhat better with the Mosaiques as a first pick. I have NOT heard this ensemble in these Haydn numbers, but I'll have to admit that I've enjoyed just about everything I HAVE heard them do.

FWIW,

Dirk

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 27, 2008, 04:39:10 PM

Quote from: Christi on November 27, 2008, 04:22:29 PM
Is he a good writer ?

Well, I certainly think so. He is regarded as the father of the modern symphony and string quartet. And the things he developed in sonata style were influential for the next 150 years. He was the most famous and highly regarded composer of his time, even more than Mozart, who was one of his good friends. You should listen to one of his symphonies and see. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Mozart: The Symphonies - The English Concert / Pinnock - K 173dB 183 Symphony #25 in g 1st mvmt - Allegro con brio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on December 04, 2008, 04:47:04 PM

Quote from: Christi on December 04, 2008, 04:43:08 PM
What's a good String quart. he did ?

BUY THIS NOW (http://www.naxosdirect.com/HAYDN-FJ---COMPLETE-STRING-QUARTETS/title/8502400/)

If you want, I can tell you my your shipping address.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on December 28, 2008, 06:22:22 AM

Does anybody have any suggestions for good un-HIP/big band recordings of the Sturm und Drang symphonies? Paris and London sets by people like Jochum and Bernstein are easy to come by, but the other works seem not to be.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 28, 2008, 07:14:10 AM

Quote from: Lethe on December 28, 2008, 06:22:22 AM
Does anybody have any suggestions for good un-HIP/big band recordings of the Sturm und Drang symphonies? Paris and London sets by people like Jochum and Bernstein are easy to come by, but the other works seem not to be.

On modern instruments, you could do a hell of a lot worse than Fischer. If you can find the original Nimbus recordings (which is what I have, not the Brilliant), they are rather grouped together. These works didn't achieve prominence back in the day of the "Big Band", so I doubt that (other than Dorati) there are many versions to choose from. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on December 28, 2008, 08:31:23 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 28, 2008, 07:14:10 AM
On modern instruments, you could do a hell of a lot worse than Fischer. If you can find the original Nimbus recordings (which is what I have, not the Brilliant), they are rather grouped together. These works didn't achieve prominence back in the day of the "Big Band", so I doubt that (other than Dorati) there are many versions to choose from. :)

8)

A shame :( Some other performances I like are by Antonio Janigro with the Symphony Orchestra of Radio Zagreb on Vanguard Classics. The playing isn't as completely ropey as the name might imply, and the performances are quite spirited. I have a disc of 47-49, but there also seems to be an OOP duo of 44-49. The versions themselves, in part, seem compromised by out of date/inaccurate editions, but the music shines through.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 28, 2008, 08:39:35 AM

Quote from: Lethe on December 28, 2008, 08:31:23 AM
A shame :( Some other performances I like are by Antonio Janigro with the Symphony Orchestra of Radio Zagreb on Vanguard Classics. The playing isn't as completely ropey as the name might imply, and the performances are quite spirited. I have a disc of 47-49, but there also seems to be an OOP duo of 44-49. The versions themselves, in part, seem compromised by out of date/inaccurate editions, but the music shines through.

Well, I don't think you would be disappointed by the Fischer at any rate. Probably the only one you would find recorded in the old days was #45, which had a "story" attached and so was popular even early on. Everyone in the world did the London's, of course, but it is rare to find any old #44's, for example. It's a pity you don't like period instruments, there are at least a good handful to choose from, like Tafelmusik/Weil, and Pinnock of course. My experience with Pinnock in Mozart leads me to believe that if he does Haydn the same way, you would be hard put to tell it from a big band. In comparison with AAM/Hogwood, they sound like the Philharmonia! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on December 28, 2008, 08:56:44 AM

Actually, silly me, I forgot the totally obvious Scherchen! I own that box, I should listen to it pronto :D I am currently struggling to financially justify buying the Haydn box on Brilliant despite wanting it a lot, but I will probably end up going for it at some point - I'll be able to give the Fischer a try then :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on December 28, 2008, 09:08:05 AM

I am still in the [very gradual] process of making my way through the Fischer set. It's always a rewarding listen, I just have other priorities made for me betimes :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 28, 2008, 09:09:09 AM

Quote from: Lethe on December 28, 2008, 08:56:44 AM
Actually, silly me, I forgot the totally obvious Scherchen! I own that box, I should listen to it pronto :D I am currently struggling to financially justify buying the Haydn box on Brilliant despite wanting it a lot, but I will probably end up going for it at some point - I'll be able to give the Fischer a try then :)

Indeed. I didn't think of that either. I knew he did quite a bit of Haydn, but not exactly what. Curious how you find it. As for Fischer, it is practically being given away these days. I hope you will have the wherewithal to bring it home some day soon. Lots of enjoyment in one little box. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on December 28, 2008, 09:46:09 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 28, 2008, 09:09:09 AM
Indeed. I didn't think of that either. I knew he did quite a bit of Haydn, but not exactly what. Curious how you find it.

From what I recall I was favourably biased going in just because he performed the earlier ones. The SQ is reasonable and playing kind of creaky, but there is a vitality there under the muck, which isn't too diminised by the lack of full repeats. It's not horribly slow either.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/417G252EARL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Hermann-Scherchen-1950s-Symphonies-Recordings/dp/B0000U1NGA)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on December 30, 2008, 11:00:52 AM

Reissue alert:

(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/decca4781221.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on December 30, 2008, 11:21:43 AM

@ what price?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on December 30, 2008, 11:27:08 AM

56 Euros at prestoclassical.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on December 30, 2008, 02:15:11 PM

Quote from: erato on December 30, 2008, 11:27:08 AM
56 Euros at prestoclassical.

Decca are smart cookies - a lot of people are going to buy this at that price - myself included.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Renfield on December 30, 2008, 02:36:40 PM

Quote from: Lethe on December 30, 2008, 02:15:11 PM
Decca are smart cookies - a lot of people are going to buy this at that price - myself included.

The Fischer is also available for around that price, and as I'm also currently shopping for a complete Haydn set, I'm much more tempted to go for that one. Not that it's at all bad that Decca are lowering the Dorati's price; quite the contrary!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 30, 2008, 02:56:44 PM

Quote from: Renfield on December 30, 2008, 02:36:40 PM
The Fischer is also available for around that price, and as I'm also currently shopping for a complete Haydn set, I'm much more tempted to go for that one. Not that it's at all bad that Decca are lowering the Dorati's price; quite the contrary!

Well, might be appropriate to obtain some opinions on complete sets of Joe's symphonic output - I own about a half of his output in this genre (mostly above No. 50), many w/ Fischer & Goodman, but would certainly like to obtain some of the earlier ones? I like Fischer & Goodman and would be happy w/ those two in the early ones, but any other choices for a COMPLETE set? Thanks all! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on December 30, 2008, 03:36:42 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on December 30, 2008, 02:56:44 PM
Well, might be appropriate to obtain some opinions on complete sets of Joe's symphonic output - I own about a half of his output in this genre (mostly above No. 50), many w/ Fischer & Goodman, but would certainly like to obtain some of the earlier ones? I like Fischer & Goodman and would be happy w/ those two in the early ones, but any other choices for a COMPLETE set? Thanks all! :D

The third option is the Naxos cycle, which has recently completed, but I have yet to read a single reason why this should be chosen over the other two cheaper and better sets. It is a piecemeal collection of often uninspired performances by an incoherent collection of performers. A company with the resources of Naxos in terms of making complete recordings of areas of the repertoire could've done a lot better than this.

Dorati is naturally in an older style of performance than Fischer, which I must admit interests me more at the moment, given the amount of HIP options available on single discs. As Gurn mentioned a few posts back, it's quite rare to find many of the symphonies Dorati plays performed by a large band, which adds an extra level of interest for me. That is definitely a personal preference, though - from what I have read by fans, Fischer does seem to be the new "default" recommendation for a complete set.

It would be interesting to see if an enterprising company releases a small set of only the early symphonies at some point. Sadly Hogwood would've been ideal for this, given his recognition of the different circumstances behind different symphonies in his Beethoven and Mozart cycles, yet the record companies don't seem interested in getting him to record any more Haydn. I would much rather hear Hogwood than an autopilot Pinnock run-through (no matter how good Pinnock's run-throughs are). I am also keen on Goodman BTW, shame that his cycle seems to have halted as well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 30, 2008, 05:05:51 PM

Dorati and Fischer are the only complete cycles by the same band all the way through. There are several groups in the Naxos, as Lethe says, and some are very good, others are... tepid at best. All the promising starts otherwise have turned off stillborn. Hogwood would be MY choice too, as I am very fond of both his Mozart and Beethoven. I also like Goodman although not to the point of "can't live without". My favorite semi-complete set right now is Tafelmusik/Weil, but I don't think this is destined for completion either. I was hoping that at least one period instrument set would be more than a sampler, but I just don't think that's going to happen. So it goes. :(

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Haydn Piano Sonatas - John McCabe - Sonata #03 in F for Piano H 16 9 2nd mvmt

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on December 30, 2008, 05:07:01 PM

Life is too short for tepid Haydn. There! I said it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 30, 2008, 05:16:43 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 30, 2008, 05:07:01 PM
Life is too short for tepid Haydn. There! I said it.

Karl - agree, Haydn should be played in all of this glory! ;D

But, he wrote so DAMN much for complete cycles - oh well - only can hope - ;) :D Dave

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on January 17, 2009, 10:53:50 AM

Joseph Haydn: Symphony #86 in D HOB 86
Saint Paul Chamber Orchestra / Hugh Wolff
Teldec 46313

Caught the above on the radio earlier this morning. Incredible recording, and that was based on our car's system! Does anyone here have this or more of this tandem for Haydn?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Martin Lind on January 22, 2009, 11:57:24 AM

Hi everybody!

Interesting to follow these discussions here. For myself: I am 47 and I am listening to classical music since my youth but I think that it is really the first time in my life that I am really caught by Haydn. Strange isn't it? I had of course always some CDs, very often not very good ones. Very rarely I listened to Haydn and said: Well not bad, quite nice, a bit boring but not bad. Sometimes I liked it a bit more, sometimes less so.

But during the last few weeks I listened more and more to Haydn and I think he is in his way a very exciting composer. And I never could have thought of Haydn to be exciting. But in his way he is.

I think there are two very important steps to Haydn. First of all he is no romantic. This is the first step, as in my youth I was terribly influenced by romantic music. The second step: He is no Mozart and Beethoven.

But in the last few weeks I listened more and more to Haydns music, for example the Opus 20 string quartets ( the Capriccio!) and some of his late symphonies. And sometimes I am really stunned. The man has his own voice. And in his way he is very exciting. Sometimes he appears to be so simple. And then you realize he can make something so great from something simple. Very often he is very subtle.

Please forgive me, if I write a bit naive. But these are some of my impressions. I wonder why I sometimes even were tempted by romantic music of less importance instead of discovering works of a really great genius. And Haydn is a genius. And I think somehow it is difficult to realize this. Baroque music is another matter, you have to explore this in his own right and you do. Haydn on the other hand is in the shadow of all romantic and classical music.

All this said: My current enthusiasm for Haydn may be a bit naive. As I said I always knew some things of him and appreciated that - but I really think I missed somehow the point of really being intrigued by Haydn, which is a shame. And I have 1300 CDs of classical music, I am really not a newbie. Strange.

Regards
Martin

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: ChamberNut on January 22, 2009, 12:57:18 PM

Quote from: Martin Lind on January 22, 2009, 11:57:24 AM
Hi everybody!

Interesting to follow these discussions here. For myself: I am 47 and I am listening to classical music since my youth but I think that it is really the first time in my life that I am really caught by Haydn. Strange isn't it? I had of course always some CDs, very often not very good ones. Very rarely I listened to Haydn and said: Well not bad, quite nice, a bit boring but not bad. Sometimes I liked it a bit more, sometimes less so.

But during the last few weeks I listened more and more to Haydn and I think he is in his way a very exciting composer. And I never could have thought of Haydn to be exciting. But in his way he is.

I think there are two very important steps to Haydn. First of all he is no romantic. This is the first step, as in my youth I was terribly influenced by romantic music. The second step: He is no Mozart and Beethoven.

But in the last few weeks I listened more and more to Haydns music, for example the Opus 20 string quartets ( the Capriccio!) and some of his late symphonies. And sometimes I am really stunned. The man has his own voice. And in his way he is very exciting. Sometimes he appears to be so simple. And then you realize he can make something so great from something simple. Very often he is very subtle.

Please forgive me, if I write a bit naive. But these are some of my impressions. I wonder why I sometimes even were tempted by romantic music of less importance instead of discovering works of a really great genius. And Haydn is a genius. And I think somehow it is difficult to realize this. Baroque music is another matter, you have to explore this in his own right and you do. Haydn on the other hand is in the shadow of all romantic and classical music.

All this said: My current enthusiasm for Haydn may be a bit naive. As I said I always knew some things of him and appreciated that - but I really think I missed somehow the point of really being intrigued by Haydn, which is a shame. And I have 1300 CDs of classical music, I am really not a newbie. Strange.

Regards
Martin

Martin, I had a similar "first impression" of Haydn - that he wouldn't be as interesting as other composers, especially Romantic composers. And of course, I was wrong. There really isn't anything boring about Haydn at all. Especially not in the string quartets (particularly the Opus 20 and Opus 76 & 77).

My first Haydn disc purchased was the string quartet version of "Seven Last Words of Christ.....", and I couldn't believe how intricate and complex a work it was! Not to mention quite beautiful. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2009, 04:39:40 PM

Quote from: Martin Lind on January 22, 2009, 11:57:24 AM
Hi everybody!

Interesting to follow these discussions here. For myself: I am 47 and I am listening to classical music since my youth but I think that it is really the first time in my life that I am really caught by Haydn. Strange isn't it? I had of course always some CDs, very often not very good ones. Very rarely I listened to Haydn and said: Well not bad, quite nice, a bit boring but not bad. Sometimes I liked it a bit more, sometimes less so.

But during the last few weeks I listened more and more to Haydn and I think he is in his way a very exciting composer. And I never could have thought of Haydn to be exciting. But in his way he is.

I think there are two very important steps to Haydn. First of all he is no romantic. This is the first step, as in my youth I was terribly influenced by romantic music. The second step: He is no Mozart and Beethoven.

But in the last few weeks I listened more and more to Haydns music, for example the Opus 20 string quartets ( the Capriccio!) and some of his late symphonies. And sometimes I am really stunned. The man has his own voice. And in his way he is very exciting. Sometimes he appears to be so simple. And then you realize he can make something so great from something simple. Very often he is very subtle.

Please forgive me, if I write a bit naive. But these are some of my impressions. I wonder why I sometimes even were tempted by romantic music of less importance instead of discovering works of a really great genius. And Haydn is a genius. And I think somehow it is difficult to realize this. Baroque music is another matter, you have to explore this in his own right and you do. Haydn on the other hand is in the shadow of all romantic and classical music.

All this said: My current enthusiasm for Haydn may be a bit naive. As I said I always knew some things of him and appreciated that - but I really think I missed somehow the point of really being intrigued by Haydn, which is a shame. And I have 1300 CDs of classical music, I am really not a newbie. Strange.

Regards
Martin

Martin,
Not naive at all, rather perceptive instead. There are some few of us here who prefer Classical Era music above all, and we know that Haydn was THE master! I was most fortunate in that my father really liked Haydn's symphonies, so I heard them from a very early age and came to equate that sound with "classical music". And 15 years ago when I decided to explore chamber music, my very first disk was Haydn's Op 76 #1-3, so not only the string quartet but all chamber music came to me through Haydn. There couldn't have been a more positive introduction. So, I still listen to Baroque and Romantic music, of course, but for me, Classical music and especially Haydn and Mozart are the pinnacles of music. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Richter: Quatuors opus 5 - Rincontro - Quartetto oeuvre 5 en Ut Majeur, No. 1: II. Andante poco (Fa Majeur)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 22, 2009, 05:21:08 PM

Quote from: Martin Lind on January 22, 2009, 11:57:24 AM
Hi everybody!..............

But during the last few weeks I listened more and more to Haydn and I think he is in his way a very exciting composer. And I never could have thought of Haydn to be exciting. But in his way he is.

I think there are two very important steps to Haydn. First of all he is no romantic. This is the first step, as in my youth I was terribly influenced by romantic music. The second step: He is no Mozart and Beethoven....................

Hello Martin - glad to see another Haydn fan here! He is one of my favorite composers and I'm one of the ones in the flock of admirers that Gurn mentions - he is certainly one of my favorite composers - I have nearly 2400 classical CDs and about 100 or so are those of Joe Haydn's music, and I'm just beginning (e.g. I have very few 'duplicate' performances - that could easily double my collection) - however, I have much more to explore, e.g. his earlier symphonies and I'm dying for more of his baryton works to appear! So, please contribute and if you want some specific recommendations just post back here - Dave :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on January 22, 2009, 05:23:57 PM

Quote from: Martin Lind on January 22, 2009, 11:57:24 AM
And I have 1300 CDs of classical music, I am really not a newbie. Strange.

I think I've listened to about that many cds when I really rediscovered Haydn as you did. I agree with you that his subtle music can easily be under-appreciated in the light of gushing romanticism, but he grows on you after awhile and you come to appreciate his music. He is my favorite composer, no one else will do. 0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on January 22, 2009, 05:31:52 PM

Quote from: DavidW on January 22, 2009, 05:23:57 PM
I think I've listened to about that many cds when I really rediscovered Haydn as you did. I agree with you that his subtle music can easily be under-appreciated in the light of gushing romanticism, but he grows on you after awhile and you come to appreciate his music. He is my favorite composer, no one else will do. 0:)

No. 2 on my list. Only LvB is in front of him, and not by much. Dead on with the under appreciated comment David. However, Mr. J. S. Bach is starting to creep into the picture. Might Wolfie drop to No. 4? How far might Bach go? Yikes! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on January 22, 2009, 05:37:20 PM

Quote from: Bogey on January 22, 2009, 05:31:52 PM

No. 2 on my list. Only LvB is in front of him, and not by much. Dead on with the under appreciated comment David. However, Mr. J. S. Bach is starting to creep into the picture. Might Wolfie drop to No. 4? How far might Bach go? Yikes! :D

Bach's cantatas vs Mozart's operas... who will win this contest? Only Bogey knows. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on January 22, 2009, 05:40:38 PM

Quote from: DavidW on January 22, 2009, 05:37:20 PM
Bach's cantatas vs Mozart's operas... who will win this contest? Only Bogey knows. ;D

Oh, in that case, Cantatas, easily.... 0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 22, 2009, 05:41:56 PM

Quote from: Bogey on January 22, 2009, 05:31:52 PM

No. 2 on my list. Only LvB is in front of him, and not by much. Dead on with the under appreciated comment David. However, Mr. J. S. Bach is starting to creep into the picture. Might Wolfie drop to No. 4? How far might Bach go? Yikes! :D

Evening Bill - Wolfie & Papa Bach are numbers 2/3 on my 'numbers list' - a lot of others, including LvB come up next - but Joe is hard to beat for me (of course, the guy was SO prolific! I guess, in part, because he disliked his wife so much and also had to produce a lot of music at that country estate of his enployment! ;)) - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Martin Lind on January 23, 2009, 02:27:46 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on January 22, 2009, 05:21:08 PM
Hello Martin - glad to see another Haydn fan here! He is one of my favorite composers and I'm one of the ones in the flock of admirers that Gurn mentions - he is certainly one of my favorite composers - I have nearly 2400 classical CDs and about 100 or so are those of Joe Haydn's music, and I'm just beginning (e.g. I have very few 'duplicate' performances - that could easily double my collection) - however, I have much more to explore, e.g. his earlier symphonies and I'm dying for more of his baryton works to appear! So, please contribute and if you want some specific recommendations just post back here - Dave :D

Thank you all for your welcome. For recommendations: Well, I quite seriously think about the Brilliant Haydn set. Although these are 150 CDs, and I will never know. These big boxes are a temptation on the one hand, and intimedating on the other. I don't have the complete works of Bach and Mozart from Brilliant by the way, I like "big boxes", but don't like "monster boxes". And the Haydn box ist a monster box.

On the other hand I have the Buchbergers with Opus 20 and like that. And I heard good things about the symphonies with Fischer. Although I know also that Fischer shouldn't be first class in the London symphonies. So maybe I should buy a really good set of the London symphonies. The Brilliant box costs 80 Euro, also some money, but of course very cheap, as you get a "nearly comple" Haydn, but of course also money. There is now also the Doratiset from Decca on the market, also quite cheap.

But just now I want to listen to Haydn more intensely ( the CDs, I already have) and buying new CDs is another step.

Regards Martin

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 23, 2009, 04:02:16 PM

Quote from: Martin Lind on January 23, 2009, 02:27:46 PM
Thank you all for your welcome. For recommendations: Well, I quite seriously think about the Brilliant Haydn set. Although these are 150 CDs, and I will never know. These big boxes are a temptation on the one hand, and intimedating on the other. I don't have the complete works of Bach and Mozart from Brilliant by the way, I like "big boxes", but don't like "monster boxes". And the Haydn box ist a monster box.

On the other hand I have the Buchbergers with Opus 20 and like that. And I heard good things about the symphonies with Fischer. Although I know also that Fischer shouldn't be first class in the London symphonies. So maybe I should buy a really good set of the London symphonies. The Brilliant box costs 80 Euro, also some money, but of course very cheap, as you get a "nearly comple" Haydn, but of course also money. There is now also the Doratiset from Decca on the market, also quite cheap.

But just now I want to listen to Haydn more intensely ( the CDs, I already have) and buying new CDs is another step.

Regards Martin

Martin,
I don't see how you can go wrong with the "Big Box", although I don't have any of them either. So much of Haydn is hard to come by, and at 80 Euros, it is the price that the Fischer set alone used to sell for (less now, of course). I have the Fischer set and think it is a great cycle. Even the London's are very good, although they have been recorded by everyone and their brother, so there is bound to be a set that is superior in some ways. Another attraction is that the complete Baryton Trios are in there, the only existing recordings of the whole thing. That would even make it worthwhile for Sonic! And also as many of the quartets as the Buchbergers have done so far (they will undoubtedly complete the cycle). Bear in mind that this is only Volume 1 of the Complete Haydn. There is easily enough music for another 100 disks, possibly more!

But again, your idea of listening thoroughly to the disks you already have is a very good one. Perhaps if you wait a bit longer and do that, the price of the Big Box will come down even more. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Haydn: The Creation - Hogwood / Academy of Ancient Music / Emma Kirkby / Anthony Rolfe Johnson / Michael George / Choir of New College Oxford - Hob 21 02 Oratorio "The Creation" pt 27 - In rosy mantle appears

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 23, 2009, 04:17:58 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 23, 2009, 04:02:16 PM
.......Another attraction is that the complete Baryton Trios are in there, the only existing recordings of the whole thing. That would even make it worthwhile for Sonic!.................

Gurn - I wish you had not made the statement above! ;) ;D Can always 'tolerate' some more Haydn baryton works! In fact (and not Papa Joe), just ordered the Baryton Trios below in a MDT order - lookin' forward to the listening experience! Dave :)

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/9999732.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Martin Lind on January 23, 2009, 05:02:15 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 23, 2009, 04:02:16 PM

But again, your idea of listening thoroughly to the disks you already have is a very good one.

Listening to works more often is always a good idea. When I was a young guy, LPs were much more expansive but I got to know certain works ( the symponies of Bruckner, Mahler and Sibelius) very intensely. Now CDs are very cheap, one buys a lot of them and listens to a lot of them and the genuin intensity is often missing.

But I see my 1400 CDs more and more as a "personal library". True, I have listened to a lot of them, but not to everything.

Today I listened again to some Haydn symphonies. 94, 100 and 101. All splendid symphonies, 100 was always my favourite, but 101 is splendid! The Andante and this trio of the menuett is really absolutely marvelous!

Regards
Martin

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 23, 2009, 05:18:17 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on January 23, 2009, 04:17:58 PM
Gurn - I wish you had not made the statement above! ;) ;D Can always 'tolerate' some more Haydn baryton works! In fact (and not Papa Joe), just ordered the Baryton Trios below in a MDT order - lookin' forward to the listening experience! Dave :)

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/9999732.jpg)

:D
Well, all 126 of them would certainly be a pleasure to hear, even if only, say, 75% of them were really masterpieces. :)

That Tomasini disk looks very interesting. I haven't heard baryton works by anyone else but Haydn (and only 20 or so of those), so it would be nice to hear a different take on the potential of this instrument. Thanks for pointing that out.

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Mozart - Fuge aus J. S. Bachs Wohltemperiertem Klavier (K. 405. 3), Livre II: Fugue No. 9 en Mi Majeur, BWV 878 (Transcription pour deux violons, alto & basse)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 23, 2009, 05:24:12 PM

Quote from: Martin Lind on January 23, 2009, 05:02:15 PM
Listening to works more often is always a good idea. When I was a young guy, LPs were much more expansive but I got to know certain works ( the symponies of Bruckner, Mahler and Sibelius) very intensely. Now CDs are very cheap, one buys a lot of them and listens to a lot of them and the genuin intensity is often missing.

But I see my 1400 CDs more and more as a "personal library". True, I have listened to a lot of them, but not to everything.

Today I listened again to some Haydn symphonies. 94, 100 and 101. All splendid symphonies, 100 was always my favourite, but 101 is splendid! The Andante and this trio of the menuett is really absolutely marvelous!

Regards
Martin

Yes, Martin, I agree with that, for sure. And even CD's weren't always so cheap; I remember well paying twice the amount for a CD than a vinyl disk, and glad to get it. We are living in a wondrous age for music lovers. :)

Oh yes, no doubt the second set of London Symphonies are a high point of Haydn's oeuvre. And of the Classical Era in general. The wit, originality and pure musicality that went into these works is barely matched by anything that came before, and really, they signal the end of the Classical Era for all but early Beethoven.

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Richter: Quatuors opus 5 - Rincontro - Quartetto oeuvre 5 en La Majeur, No. 3: I. Allegretto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 23, 2009, 05:42:25 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 23, 2009, 05:18:17 PM
Well, all 126 of them would certainly be a pleasure to hear, even if only, say, 75% of them were really masterpieces. :)

That Tomasini disk looks very interesting. I haven't heard baryton works by anyone else but Haydn (and only 20 or so of those), so it would be nice to hear a different take on the potential of this instrument. Thanks for pointing that out.

Yes, Gurn - I know 'how many' DAMN baryton works that Haydn wrote! ;) ;D Prince Nick just would not give him any relief - :D

And I'd love to hear them all! BTW, Tomasini worked in the same court w/ Haydn, so that CPO disc should be quite interesting for us - below just a quote from the MDT website - have a great weekend, my friend! Dave :)

Quote

LUIGI TOMASINI (1741-1808)

Five Baryton Trios - Esterházy Ensemble

Kerstin Linder-Dewan (Violin), Andras Bolyki (Viola), Maria Andrasfalvy-Bruessing (Violoncello), Michael Bruessing (Baryton)

The baryton resembles a bass viol and can be played with a bow at the front while simultaneously being plucked from the back, the resulting sound having quite an unusual resonance for a solo instrument. The instrument was popular in areas of Austria and south Germany at periodic intervals between the mid-17th and early 19th century, and works for the instrument have been composed by Haydn and Leopold Mozart among others.

Tomasini was primarily a violinst but also a composer of chamber music in the court of Prince Nikolaus von Esterhazy, in which he served as a musician for much of his life alongside Haydn. Haydn's influence on Tomasini is clear, and working for a music patron as devoted as Prince Nikolaus helped the musical output of both artists to flourish. Prince Nikolaus was a firm fan and indeed talented performer of the baryton, and consquently both Haydn and Tomasini composed several works for the instrument, the former having composed over 175 such works.

Appropriately, the Esterhazy Ensemble give fantastic performances of these trios. They are among the ensemble's favourite pieces to perform due to their huge range of inventiveness and crowd-pleasing instrumental acrobatics. The ensemble dedicates itself particularly to the baryton repertoire, and are lucky enough to have in their possession the only copy of the prince's instrument, on which these works are performed.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 23, 2009, 05:51:03 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on January 23, 2009, 05:42:25 PM
Yes, Gurn - I know 'how many' DAMN baryton works that Haydn wrote! ;) ;D Prince Nick just would not give him any relief - :D

;D Indeed, always pestering for more. :)

QuoteAnd I'd love to hear them all! BTW, Tomasini worked in the same court w/ Haydn, so that CPO disc should be quite interesting for us - below just a quote from the MDT website - have a great weekend, my friend! Dave :)

On the same lines, have you heard the Duos for Violin & Viola? There are 6 of them. This is my favorite recording:

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/20/204378.JPG)

They play them on Violin & Cello instead. The resonance of the cello makes them even better, IMO. If you haven't, you should give them a go. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Brahms - Works for Solo Piano - 1 - Katchen, Julius - Variations on a Theme by Paganini, Op. 35 - Book 1

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 23, 2009, 06:14:43 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 23, 2009, 05:51:03 PM
On the same lines, have you heard the Duos for Violin & Viola? There are 6 of them. This is my favorite recording:

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/20/204378.JPG)

They play them on Violin & Cello instead. The resonance of the cello makes them even better, IMO. If you haven't, you should give them a go. :)

Gurn - don't own those String Duos, but love that label & the cello change sounds fine to me - added to my wish list! Thanks - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 23, 2009, 06:19:40 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on January 23, 2009, 06:14:43 PM
Gurn - don't own those String Duos, but love that label & the cello change sounds fine to me - added to my wish list! Thanks - Dave :)

Great. You won't be disappointed. This disk was one of my early acquisitions, and I was truly surprised at how wonderful this music was. The reason I mention it, BTW, is that Haydn wrote it for himself (Viola) and Tomasini (Violin) to play in the evening while entertaining HM. Sort os a link there... ;)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Brahms - Works for Solo Piano - 1 - Katchen, Julius - Variationen und Fuge op. 24 on a Theme by Handel

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on January 24, 2009, 06:11:26 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 23, 2009, 05:51:03 PM
;D Indeed, always pestering for more. :)

On the same lines, have you heard the Duos for Violin & Viola? There are 6 of them. This is my favorite recording:

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/20/204378.JPG)

They play them on Violin & Cello instead. The resonance of the cello makes them even better, IMO. If you haven't, you should give them a go. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Brahms - Works for Solo Piano - 1 - Katchen, Julius - Variations on a Theme by Paganini, Op. 35 - Book 1

Incredible disc of music Dave! Gurn rec. it to me many moons ago. You will love it!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jwinter on January 28, 2009, 06:23:09 AM

I'm torn on the whole Brilliant Haydn box. Most of it I don't need -- I already have Fischer's symphonies, and I have the Angeles Quartet SQ set, plus enough other SQ singles that I don't feel the need for a 2nd complete SQ set. I also have the Beaux Arts piano trios, and the piano sonatas on both piano and fortepiano/harpsichord, so I think I'm good there as well. However, I'd really like to hear the baryton works! Has anyone heard if Brilliant will be releasing them separately?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on January 28, 2009, 06:41:39 AM

Quote from: jwinter on January 28, 2009, 06:23:09 AM
I'm torn on the whole Brilliant Haydn box. Most of it I don't need -- I already have Fischer's symphonies, and I have the Angeles Quartet SQ set, plus enough other SQ singles that I don't feel the need for a 2nd complete SQ set. I also have the Beaux Arts piano trios, and the piano sonatas on both piano and fortepiano/harpsichord, so I think I'm good there as well. However, I'd really like to hear the baryton works! Has anyone heard if Brilliant will be releasing them separately?

I see the songs now on a Brilliant triple, so I guess we will see the box broken down. My situation is much like yours, the BA in the trios, Kodaly/Mosaique in the quartets, Dorati and tons of individual discs (Kuijken, Harnoncorut, Pinnock, Jacobs, Jochum) in the symphionies, a goodly selection of operas with Dorati and Harnoncourt, C Schornsheim in the sonatas with additional single discs, and I WANT the the barytone trios!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 28, 2009, 08:37:42 AM

Guys - attached are the discs that I currently own of the baryton works - not sure how many are still in print, but can certainly recommend them - Dave :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on January 28, 2009, 09:10:57 AM

Quote from: jwinter on January 28, 2009, 06:23:09 AM
I'm torn on the whole Brilliant Haydn box. Most of it I don't need -- I already have Fischer's symphonies, and I have the Angeles Quartet SQ set, plus enough other SQ singles that I don't feel the need for a 2nd complete SQ set. I also have the Beaux Arts piano trios, and the piano sonatas on both piano and fortepiano/harpsichord, so I think I'm good there as well. However, I'd really like to hear the baryton works! Has anyone heard if Brilliant will be releasing them separately?

The SQ set isn't complete anyway. The whole "complete" in the marketing is actually a lie. It's missing most of the masses, most of the operas, some of the string quartets, and plenty of other odds and ends. Even the baryton set isn't complete! Just look at the amazon reviews, for once the reviews are extremely helpful. I'm not a believer in complete box sets anymore, but still I don't like false advertising. In fact, I kind of thought it was illegal.

I think I'm like I would prefer to just have a barytons set by itself, that would be the only thing I would buy the set for.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on January 28, 2009, 09:15:05 AM

Quote from: DavidW on January 28, 2009, 09:10:57 AM
The SQ set isn't complete anyway. The whole "complete" in the marketing is actually a lie. It's missing most of the masses, most of the operas, some of the string quartets, and plenty of other odds and ends. Even the baryton set isn't complete! Just look at the amazon reviews, for once the reviews are extremely helpful.

Same here, the Amazon reviews alerted me to it and the seemingly random missing SQs are what kept me from buying it in the end...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on January 28, 2009, 09:49:07 AM

Quote from: DavidW on January 28, 2009, 09:10:57 AM
The SQ set isn't complete anyway. The whole "complete" in the marketing is actually a lie. It's missing most of the masses, most of the operas, some of the string quartets, and plenty of other odds and ends. Even the baryton set isn't complete! Just look at the amazon reviews, for once the reviews are extremely helpful. I'm not a believer in complete box sets anymore, but still I don't like false advertising. In fact, I kind of thought it was illegal.

But it's only vol 1.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2009, 11:13:33 AM

Quote from: erato on January 28, 2009, 09:49:07 AM
But it's only vol 1.

And the SQ's aren't all there because the cycle isn't completed yet. Not because they wrong-headedly decided to not include them all.

And yes, this was, at release time, billed as Volume I. They could easily do another 100 disks... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on January 28, 2009, 11:18:37 AM

Quote from: erato on January 28, 2009, 09:49:07 AM
But it's only vol 1.

But it's not in the product description, and there's no big "volume 1" in the picture of the box either, and it doesn't appear in the title. That is false advertising. Did I miss something?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on January 28, 2009, 12:19:14 PM

Quote from: DavidW on January 28, 2009, 11:18:37 AM
But it's not in the product description, and there's no big "volume 1" in the picture of the box either, and it doesn't appear in the title. That is false advertising. Did I miss something?

It's been discussed here, and Harry had some information. I don't remember which thread unfortunately.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on January 28, 2009, 06:30:31 PM

Quote from: erato on January 28, 2009, 12:19:14 PM
It's been discussed here, and Harry had some information. I don't remember which thread unfortunately.

Here it be:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9423.0.html

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gabriel on January 29, 2009, 12:41:42 PM

Hi to everyone after a long silence! :)

I bought in France the "complete Haydn" set by Brilliant, and it came with a sticker that said, literally, "vol. 1". I guess that we will have the vol. 2 during 2009 (celebrating the bicentenary), possibly with 100 or more CDs as Gurn pointed out.

Fortunately I hadn't bought the Fischer cycle. Comparing it to the Dorati is delightful, but I cannot speak for all the cycle, because I haven't finished it. (For instance, in symphony n. 70, one of my favorite, the prize is awarded to Dorati). Both are excellent.

The 3 CDs of Lieder sung by Elly Ameling are truly delightful. As I liked her Mozart cycle, it was no surprise.

(I read somewhere that the Baryton Trios will be also sold separately, so do not get in despair, Haydn fans!)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 29, 2009, 06:03:17 PM

Quote from: Gabriel on January 29, 2009, 12:41:42 PM
Hi to everyone after a long silence! :)

I bought in France the "complete Haydn" set by Brilliant, and it came with a sticker that said, literally, "vol. 1". I guess that we will have the vol. 2 during 2009 (celebrating the bicentenary), possibly with 100 or more CDs as Gurn pointed out.

Fortunately I hadn't bought the Fischer cycle. Comparing it to the Dorati is delightful, but I cannot speak for all the cycle, because I haven't finished it. (For instance, in symphony n. 70, one of my favorite, the prize is awarded to Dorati). Both are excellent.

The 3 CDs of Lieder sung by Elly Ameling are truly delightful. As I liked her Mozart cycle, it was no surprise.

(I read somewhere that the Baryton Trios will be also sold separately, so do not get in despair, Haydn fans!)

Gabriel, my friend, welcome back! (yes, TOO long a silence) And you bring good news too. :)

I would be delighted for a Volume 2. There are so many things that could easily fit into it (like the string trios and duos, all the wind divertimenti, the remainder of the operas, masses and string quartets, just for starters).

I don't really care that I already have the Fischer cycle (on Nimbus), I have held off for a long time from buying those sets of Piano Trios and sonatas, for example, and I have wanted to try the string quartets too. And all the Baryton Trios! So that patience will now pay off.

Ultimately, I will be quite surprised if Haydn's entire oeuvre makes it to recording, but we will finally be closer to it than ever before. That's an accomplishment in itself. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra / Fischer - Hob 01 085 Symphony in Bb 3rd mvmt - Menuetto & Trio: Allegretto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on January 29, 2009, 07:01:47 PM

Been a long time Gabriel, thanks for the info. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gabriel on January 30, 2009, 03:25:57 AM

Well, it is a delight to bring you the info and to know from you, guys!

I remember some years ago in this same forum of having dreamt of a Complete Haydn Edition. It sounded almost impossible, considering the position of the recording industry. And here we have this great surprise!

I have to agree with the expressed opinion on Haydn's op. 23 (duos for violin and basso continuo): the Duo Ongarese recording is included in the Brilliant set, and it could perfectly fit in an anthology of great classical chamber music. I am particularly fond of the slow movements, which are distillation of the purest Haydn.

The more I listen to Haydn, the more I am astonished that he has been put in a "second rank" for such a long time. Consecuences of 19th century prejudices? Who knows. I hope 2009 will be a good platform for motivating people to listen to his music.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on February 02, 2009, 01:21:21 AM

I'm on a quest for the perfect MODERN Haydn symphony 88. It's my favourite symphony out of the whole caboodle.

(Modern to exclude Furtwangler, which is clearly excellent, but if I stopped there I'd have no fun.)

I recently bought this one, but I'm confused. Sometimes I love it for it's driven high-energy. Sometimes I hate it for its brashness.

What do you guys think of Fey's Haydn? And any suggestions for 88?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on February 02, 2009, 01:42:12 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on February 02, 2009, 01:21:21 AM
And any suggestions for 88?

Jochum on DG. It is at least available on his Haydn Original Masters box.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: hornteacher on February 02, 2009, 03:27:42 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on February 02, 2009, 01:21:21 AM
And any suggestions for 88?

My personal favorite:

http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Symphonies-Nos-88-92/dp/B00000J2PW/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1233577569&sr=8-1

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on February 02, 2009, 08:41:23 AM

Quote from: hornteacher on February 02, 2009, 03:27:42 AM
My personal favorite:

http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Symphonies-Nos-88-92/dp/B00000J2PW/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1233577569&sr=8-1

It's nice to find someone else who knows that Kujken recording.

I love the sound he makes, and his approach is always elegant. He's great in the opining allegro of #88.

But from then on I part company with him. The Largo seems to me to be a disconnected series of undramatic episodes. And the Minuetto Allegretto -- one of the greatest things Haydn ever wrote-- is, I think, just too slow and four square. In in that incredible section where Haydn makes the orchestra imitate a peasant instrument with a drone, it doesn't sound exciting and daring enough to my ears. It's just too elegant for me!

Do try to hear the the Fey. For all I have reservations, I prefer it to the Kujken.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on February 02, 2009, 08:50:18 AM

Quote from: erato on February 02, 2009, 01:42:12 AM
Jochum on DG. It is at least available on his Haydn Original Masters box.

Well, I love Jochum's London symphonies -- and I didn't know he recorded an 88.

And it's cheap as chips on amazon.co.uk -- ordered. I'll let you know what I think when I get it!

Thanks.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on February 02, 2009, 09:28:06 AM

Repost from the HIP-Haydn thread (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,4682.0.html):

For the symphonies I have three favourites: Kuijken, Bruno Weil and Harnoncourt with the Concentus Musicus Wien. Kuijken is the most lyrical and intimate, Weil is lean, pungent and witty, Harnoncourt is the most forcefull and has the most dash. Slightly prefer the latter two to Kuijken.

Kuijken is available in an ultra-cheap box (Virgin) and a Japanese issue on DHM for the "London symphonies":

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/Oct02/Haydn_Symphonies_Kuijken_5CDVirgin.jpg) (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2003/Jan03/Haydn_Kuijken.htm) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51v%2B0QatwaL._SS500_.jpg)

Bruno Weil did 7 CD's on Sony, before they disgracefully pulled the plug when downsizing. They contained symphonies 41-47; 50-51; 64 & 65 and 82-90. I have gathered them all at some cost - it is high time that Sony reissued these!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NNS8ZSVAL._SS500_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51zhBar7nRL._SS500_.jpg)

Harnoncourt did some recordings with the Concentus Musicus Wien in the '90s for Warner/Teldec (he did the rest with the RCO), now reissued on Warners' budget line "Elatus", and recently the "Paris symphonies" on DHM:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w300/front/0/7151127.jpg)(http://www.jpc.de/image/w300/front/0/7559125.jpg)(http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedia//images_produits/ZoomPE/5/2/2/0828766060225.jpg)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on February 02, 2009, 10:55:17 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on February 02, 2009, 01:21:21 AM
I recently bought this one, but I'm confused. Sometimes I love it for it's driven high-energy. Sometimes I hate it for its brashness.

What do you guys think of Fey's Haydn? And any suggestions for 88?

I have only one of Fey's Haydn discs, and based on that slim evidence I have to say I find it his approach hard-driven and over-the-top motoric. The lyrical side of Haydn kind of gets lost in the quest for making Haydn 'shocking' and 'exciting' which, AFAIC, is an avenue of diminishing returns. A lot of Harnoncourt disciples adopt this approach, alas.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on February 02, 2009, 10:59:16 AM

Quote from: Lethe on February 16, 2008, 11:27:52 PM
It may be a bad idea to buy a complete set if you are not yet sure of Haydn's value - certainly a lot of the symphonies are slightly lower in inspiration than the famous ones (although to somebody who loves Haydn, this is not a problem, and every work has much to engage the listener).

Perhaps consider purchasing sets of "named" symphonies - such as London, Paris and Sturm und Drang.

I'm sorry but I have to take issue with this. Haydn wrote on a pretty consistent high level, and not just the "name" symphonies are good (though the ones mentioned aren't all "name' symphonies, sorry again. There are excellent symphonies like 67 and 68 that do not have a name.

QuoteEdit: The Fischer is of course very good, though. I forgot to mention this :) It is also very cheap, but as previously mentioned, the later symphonies will need supplementing, as they are weaker performances

Agreed. And the box is that cheap you don't have to worry about getting a couple of cd's you won't listen to as much.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Josquin des Prez on February 02, 2009, 11:19:01 AM

Quote from: Herman on February 02, 2009, 10:59:16 AM
Haydn wrote on a pretty consistent high level

Not really. A lot of his symphonies are pretty damn inconsistent.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on February 02, 2009, 11:23:08 AM

well, if you say so, then I guess I was wrong.

There can be no two ways about this.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on February 02, 2009, 11:29:21 AM

Quote from: Herman on February 02, 2009, 10:59:16 AM
There are excellent symphonies like 67 and 68 that do not have a name.

Agreed.

But I note that my own favourite -- #88 -- seems to be named "The Letter V Symphony"

Does anyone know why?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bulldog on February 02, 2009, 11:31:54 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on February 02, 2009, 01:21:21 AM
I'm on a quest for the perfect MODERN Haydn symphony 88.

Colin Davis is my favorite for no. 88. I'm not a big Haydn symphonies fan though.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on February 02, 2009, 12:30:36 PM

Brüggen's set would probably be a good survey:

http://www.tower.com/haydn-sturm-und-drang-paris-london-symphonies-bruggen-orch-18th-century-cd/wapi/106874603
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/6110381

I only have his London set, which would be my first choice for those. Pinnock would be my first choice for the Sturm und Drang symphonies.

Some others:

Blum: 60 and others
Bernstein: Paris
Klemperer: late symphonies
Mackerras: 31, 45, and a few Londons
Szell: 92-98 (also 104 in mono)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on February 02, 2009, 12:57:23 PM

Quote from: Herman on February 02, 2009, 10:59:16 AM
I'm sorry but I have to take issue with this. Haydn wrote on a pretty consistent high level, and not just the "name" symphonies are good (though the ones mentioned aren't all "name' symphonies, sorry again. There are excellent symphonies like 67 and 68 that do not have a name.

Hehe, I guess I should relisten to the ones between 60 and the Paris set more often. I also have little time for the unnamed early ones - probably too much else to listen to (the piano trios, etc). I'll put them on the "to listen" list, though :) Probably half of my favourites are unnamed, possibly due to overplaying the famous ones, but it can't all be that. 39 has been a particular favourite over the past year after rediscovering it through a nice performance (ECM/Munich Chamber Orch).

Quote from: Mandryka on February 02, 2009, 11:29:21 AM
But I note that my own favourite -- #88 -- seems to be named "The Letter V Symphony"

Does anyone know why?

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._88_(Haydn)) is becoming more and more useful for Haydn symphony erata - there have long since been articles for everyone - some albeit placeholders.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: hornteacher on February 02, 2009, 02:43:22 PM

Quote from: Daverz on February 02, 2009, 12:30:36 PM
Some others:

Mackerras: 31, 45, and a few Londons

YES! He does the "Military", "Clock", "Drumroll", and "London". They are so well done one wishes he would have recorded all 12.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Coopmv on February 02, 2009, 06:52:14 PM

I have the Complete Haydn Symphonies by Adam Fischer, spread over a few sets. These CD's are now available as a single set. Here is one of the boxes I have ...

I think the SQ of these sets is quite good and the performance is quite commendable ...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41F49RE4ZCL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on February 03, 2009, 05:45:00 AM

I am soon going to be faced with the difficult task of choosing between Dorati and Fischer for a complete set of Haydn symphonies. My main interest is for the middle period symphonies (between the Sturm & Drang and the Paris series), since Kuijken, Harnoncourt, Szell and Bernstein cover nos 82-104 perfectly. I have Dorati on vinyl, which means that I have not heard them for years. I hear good reviews for Fischer. It's boils down to a choice between "safety first" with Dorati (ie something that I know is good), or exploring a different interpretation with Fischer.

Any advice?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on February 03, 2009, 08:23:54 AM

Quote from: alkan on February 03, 2009, 05:45:00 AM
I am soon going to be faced with the difficult task of choosing between Dorati and Fischer for a complete set of Haydn symphonies. My main interest is for the middle period symphonies (between the Sturm & Drang and the Paris series), since Kuijken, Harnoncourt, Szell and Bernstein cover nos 82-104 perfectly. I have Dorati on vinyl, which means that I have not heard them for years. I hear good reviews for Fischer. It's boils down to a choice between "safety first" with Dorati (ie something that I know is good), or exploring a different interpretation with Fischer.

Any advice?

If you want storm and stress then the choice is, IMO, clear. Pinnock every time.

I'm not a great fan of Dorati. In the fast movements especially he doesn't cut the mustard for me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on February 03, 2009, 08:33:05 AM

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on February 02, 2009, 11:19:01 AM
Not really. A lot of his symphonies are pretty damn inconsistent.

You may well be right Josquin.

A while ago there was a lot of fuss made about Symphonies 6, 7 and 8.

And someone convinced me that the most "magical" recording ever was this one: the Prague Chamber Orchestra with Bernhard Klee

So like a lamb to the slaughter I bought it -- at tremendous expense.

But what's the big deal? I can see the music is colourful, nice, soothing. And I can see the performance is great: beautiful string sound and very committed and intense.

But great music. No way!

Or am I missing something?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on February 03, 2009, 10:22:01 AM

When a composer writes a 108 symphonies I would not call him "pretty damn inconsistent" if his first, say, ten symphonies aren't as good as those from, say, nr 40 onwards.

That still leaves us with more than fifty symphonies to slap around.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on February 03, 2009, 02:57:44 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on February 03, 2009, 08:33:05 AM
You may well be right Josquin.

A while ago there was a lot of fuss made about Symphonies 6, 7 and 8.

And someone convinced me that the most "magical" recording ever was this one: the Prague Chamber Orchestra with Bernhard Klee

So like a lamb to the slaughter I bought it -- at tremendous expense.

But what's the big deal? I can see the music is colourful, nice, soothing. And I can see the performance is great: beautiful string sound and very committed and intense.

But great music. No way!

Or am I missing something?

Well I think you should have gone with a cheap recording of those symphonies first to see if you really loved them. It doesn't make sense to become an obsessive collector over works you never heard before!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Coopmv on February 03, 2009, 06:58:30 PM

Quote from: alkan on February 03, 2009, 05:45:00 AM
I am soon going to be faced with the difficult task of choosing between Dorati and Fischer for a complete set of Haydn symphonies. My main interest is for the middle period symphonies (between the Sturm & Drang and the Paris series), since Kuijken, Harnoncourt, Szell and Bernstein cover nos 82-104 perfectly. I have Dorati on vinyl, which means that I have not heard them for years. I hear good reviews for Fischer. It's boils down to a choice between "safety first" with Dorati (ie something that I know is good), or exploring a different interpretation with Fischer.

Any advice?

I think Fischer's recordings may have better SQ. I know for sure I do not have any Haydn symphonies by Dorati on CD but do not recall offhand if I have any on LP.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on February 04, 2009, 01:33:30 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on February 03, 2009, 08:23:54 AM
If you want storm and stress then the choice is, IMO, clear. Pinnock every time.

I'm not a great fan of Dorati. In the fast movements especially he doesn't cut the mustard for me.

Yes, one day I will finally get Pinnock for the S&D, but I currently have Solomons and I really like this version.

What is wrong with Dorati in the fast movements ?? Is it the interpretation or the orchestra (or both?). I'd be interested in hearing more details here .... thanks

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on February 04, 2009, 02:52:03 AM

Quote from: alkan on February 04, 2009, 01:33:30 AM
Yes, one day I will finally get Pinnock for the S&D, but I currently have Solomons and I really like this version.

What is wrong with Dorati in the fast movements ?? Is it the interpretation or the orchestra (or both?). I'd be interested in hearing more details here .... thanks

I just find that he's a bit unexciting compared with say, Szell or Harnoncourt. Not bad -- just I think that you can do better. His fast movements don't make me want to dance like theirs do.

I own quite a lot of the Dorati but I rarely play it. It doesn't pain ever pain me, but personally I get more pleasure from Harnoncourt, Fey, Pinnock, Szell, Jochum Mackeras, Rattle, Furtwangler, Sanderling (great #82), Kujken . . .

With all these big sets it's the same thing. They are rarely the best for everything. You need to compare them on a symphony by symphony basis.

I've never put the work in for the Haydn symphonies.

Maybe there are symphonies in the Dorati which are superlatively excellent -- does anyone have any suggestions?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on February 04, 2009, 02:54:33 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on February 03, 2009, 08:33:05 AM
You may well be right Josquin.

A while ago there was a lot of fuss made about Symphonies 6, 7 and 8.

And someone convinced me that the most "magical" recording ever was this one: the Prague Chamber Orchestra with Bernhard Klee

So like a lamb to the slaughter I bought it -- at tremendous expense.

But what's the big deal? I can see the music is colourful, nice, soothing. And I can see the performance is great: beautiful string sound and very committed and intense.

But great music. No way!

Or am I missing something?

I just listened to this recording again and it sounded absolutely bloody marvelous -- not just the performance but also the music.

I must have been in a grumpy mood yesterday and I regret making that post. :-[

I would delete it -- except there have been replies.

If you know what's good for you, put me on ignore.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Josquin des Prez on February 05, 2009, 07:58:46 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on February 03, 2009, 08:33:05 AM
You may well be right Josquin.

A while ago there was a lot of fuss made about Symphonies 6, 7 and 8.

And someone convinced me that the most "magical" recording ever was this one: the Prague Chamber Orchestra with Bernhard Klee

So like a lamb to the slaughter I bought it -- at tremendous expense.

But what's the big deal? I can see the music is colourful, nice, soothing. And I can see the performance is great: beautiful string sound and very committed and intense.

But great music. No way!

Or am I missing something?

The deal with those three symphonies is that they are the first Haydn wrote that show a modicum of character. They are the most common choice among those who are curious to investigate the young composer but don't want to bother buying a complete set. We need to remember that Haydn wrote mostly for the entertainment of his patrons, and many of the early symphonies were written on a weekly schedule, to be performed once then forgotten (this is not the case with the cantatas of Bach, which were written under the same conditions, but then, Bach is considerably greater then Haydn). Unless you are obsessed with the composer, there's really no reason to not simply start with the Storm and Stress symphonies.

BTW, Pinnock also recorded those three symphonies. Since you liked him in the Storm and Stress (which are indeed very good), you might also try him again here.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on February 05, 2009, 09:45:33 AM

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on February 05, 2009, 07:58:46 AM
We need to remember that Haydn wrote mostly for the entertainment of his patrons, and many of the early symphonies were written on a weekly schedule, to be performed once then forgotten (this is not the case with the cantatas of Bach, which were written under the same conditions, but then, Bach is a considerably greater then Haydn).

Pardon me but this doesn't seem to add up. What's the part we "need to remember"?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Josquin des Prez on February 05, 2009, 01:23:21 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on February 04, 2009, 02:54:33 AM
I just listened to this recording again and it sounded absolutely bloody marvelous -- not just the performance but also the music.

I must have been in a grumpy mood yesterday and I regret making that post. :-[

I would delete it -- except there have been replies.

If you know what's good for you, put me on ignore.

Ho shoot, you are right. How foolish of you to presume you could cast an objective judgment upon a work of art. Who are you to impute early Haydn isn't as great as everything else he has written? Did you forget perceptions are subject and prone to change, that the existence of objective standards is a myth? You have already been scheduled for re-education, move along citizen.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Valentino on February 10, 2009, 08:45:07 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2007, 05:48:37 PM
Op 50 - 6 quartets. My personal favorites.

But who do I buy? I have Mosaïques in opp. 20, 33, 64, 76 and 77+103, but since they haven't done op. 50...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bulldog on February 10, 2009, 08:48:25 AM

Quote from: Valentino on February 10, 2009, 08:45:07 AM
But who do I buy? I have Mosaïques in opp. 20, 33, 64, 76 and 77+103, but since they haven't done op. 50...

My first choice is the Tatrai on Hungaroton; second is the Nomos on CPO.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Valentino on February 10, 2009, 09:12:52 AM

Thanks. Can you describe their virtues, Bulldog?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 10, 2009, 09:14:51 AM

Quote from: Valentino on February 10, 2009, 08:45:07 AM
But who do I buy? I have Mosaïques in opp. 20, 33, 64, 76 and 77+103, but since they haven't done op. 50...

Well, I'm w/ Don - I've the Nomos Quartett in the Op. 50 works; 2 CDs @ a great price! :D

(https://www.jpc.de/image/w183/front/0/0761203921829.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bulldog on February 10, 2009, 12:51:12 PM

Quote from: Valentino on February 10, 2009, 09:12:52 AM
Thanks. Can you describe their virtues, Bulldog?

The Tatrai are somewhat romantic and lush (a relative thing); Nomos are very clean, detailed and even pristine.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 10, 2009, 12:54:20 PM

Quote from: Bulldog on February 10, 2009, 12:51:12 PM
The Tatrai are somewhat romantic and lush (a relative thing); Nomos are very clean, detailed and even pristine.

Yes, the Nomos' are a strong recommend from me. Op 50 is my favorite Haydn 6 pack, and this performance of it is very good. Not quite as enthralling as the Tokyo, but a hell of a lot easier to get! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on February 10, 2009, 02:35:16 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 20, 2007, 07:51:15 AM
I like Quators Festetics a lot. But I haven't heard Quators Mosaiques yet... :-\

Seriously? I've heard them all, didn't I share them with you? :-[

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on February 10, 2009, 02:36:31 PM

Quote from: Bulldog on February 10, 2009, 12:51:12 PM
The Tatrai are somewhat romantic and lush (a relative thing); Nomos are very clean, detailed and even pristine.

Yup that's why I prefer Nomos, and also like the Angeles Q, and Kodaly as well. I like a clean, detached performance, none of that wubba wubba as Karl would say. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 10, 2009, 05:24:26 PM

Quote from: DavidW on February 10, 2009, 02:35:16 PM
Seriously? I've heard them all, didn't I share them with you? :-[

No... :'(

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Gottfried von der Goltz - Musikalisches Opfer, 'Musical Offering'/11: Canon a 4

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Valentino on February 10, 2009, 11:17:01 PM

I had never heard about Nomos Quartett before, but what they do in op. 51 sounds right to me (the way jpc presents it). Thanks folks, I'm buying.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on February 16, 2009, 03:54:13 AM

Based on almost universal acclaim for the 6 CD box of Haydn S&D symphonies from Pinnock, I bought a copy. Whilst there are many things to admire and enjoy, I have to say that I am somewhat underwhelmed by some of the performances.
One of the main reasons is the harpsichord continuo in the fast movements. I really find it a distracting noise.

A good example is the first movement of the "Farewell" symphony. Pinnock hammers away like a maniac ....da, da, da da, da, da, da da..... It's like trying to listen to the music with the next door neighbour banging on the wall !! Compare this to Solomons, whose performance is not only much more lively and agressive, but the lines are crystal-clear, especially the amazing dissonances on the horns. I hope that one day Sony will reissue these magnificent recordings.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on February 16, 2009, 04:58:57 AM

I also have issues with Pinnock's Haydn, although not for the continuo (Goodman's is even louder) - it just feels somewhat mechanical and cookie-cutter. Very admirable performances, but I cannot emotionally engage with them. It's still a quality set, though...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 05:20:46 AM

Quote from: alkan on February 16, 2009, 03:54:13 AM
Based on almost universal acclaim for the 6 CD box of Haydn S&D symphonies from Pinnock, I bought a copy. Whilst there are many things to admire and enjoy, I have to say that I am somewhat underwhelmed by some of the performances.
One of the main reasons is the harpsichord continuo in the fast movements. I really find it a distracting noise.

I have the set. I find the performance is disciplined but lacks the flair that is always so obvious when the Pinnock and the English Concerts perform works of Bach or Handel ...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on February 16, 2009, 05:23:19 AM

Out of curiosity, what are your preferences for these symphonies ??
Thx ... Alkan

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on February 16, 2009, 05:29:13 AM

I never found the continuo bothersome in the Pinnock set. Perhaps I was influenced by the quality of the sound and playing, but I've been very happy with this box. I'll have to pick up some of the Solomon Lps. Checking Amazon, I see that some are on CD, including 45, and are available used, while 35, 45, and 59 are available on an import CD.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jwinter on February 16, 2009, 05:36:19 AM

I had the same issues with the continuo in some of the Mackerras Mozart symphony set -- it drove me nuts. I guess it's because I was raised with Szell, Bohm et al, but continuo in classical style music is just not my cuppa tea (as opposed to baroque music -- it sounds fine to me in Bach or Vivaldi...)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on February 16, 2009, 05:41:06 AM

I just found this on Amazon(US) !!!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B0019H9W7U/sr=8-6/qid=1234794899/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=5174&s=music&qid=1234794899&sr=8-6

Daverz, I can REALLY recommend this disc ...... the preformances of 39 and 45 are incredible (and both of these symphonies are masterpieces)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on February 16, 2009, 05:41:20 AM

Quote from: jwinter on February 16, 2009, 05:36:19 AM
I had the same issues with the continuo in some of the Mackerras Mozart symphony set -- it drove me nuts. I guess it's because I was raised with Szell, Bohm et al, but continuo in classical style music is just not my cuppa tea (as opposed to baroque music -- it sounds fine to me in Bach or Vivaldi...)

I sometimes dislike it in string music, where, to paraphrase Nielsen's line about the harp, it's like a fly in your soup.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on February 16, 2009, 05:42:57 AM

Quote from: alkan on February 16, 2009, 05:23:19 AM
Out of curiosity, what are your preferences for these symphonies ??
Thx ... Alkan

Due to the infrequent recording of the S&D symphonies, there isn't as much choice as I would like (Kuijken for example has not recorded them), which is why I still consider Pinnock a good recommendation and I am happy to own the set.

Goodman/Hyperion A stylistic opposite of Pinnock, rough and ready, sometimes slightly ragged, continuo which at times sounds like a harpsichord concerto, something of a devil-may-care attitude, but not abandoning lyricism - all in all, a lot of fun but something to try before you buy (an revealing comparison with Pinnock may be in No.44).

I heard Hogwood a long time ago, but don't own them due to being OOP, and was very impressed at his usual mix of total immersion in the musicmaking and an attention to detail without damaging the spontinaity with any sense of slickness.

I heard Brüggen for the first time a week or two ago and have yet to decide how I feel about them. I found the conducting a little loose and with focus on some individual effects, perhaps at the cost of the long-line (which in a Haydn symphony is pretty bad, given how short they are anyway). I am very likely to revise this opinion the more I hear them, though.

I wish there were more sets of the S&D symphonies recorded, as their interest is equal to the Paris and London sets due to their relative neglect...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on February 16, 2009, 05:43:58 AM

Quote from: alkan on February 16, 2009, 05:41:06 AM
I just found this on Amazon(US) !!!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B0019H9W7U/sr=8-6/qid=1234794899/ref=dp_image_0?ie=UTF8&n=5174&s=music&qid=1234794899&sr=8-6

Daverz, I can REALLY recommend this disc ...... the preformances of 39 and 45 are incredible (and both of these symphonies are masterpieces)

Also available from JPC.

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Joseph%20Haydn%3A%20Symphonien%20Nr.%2039%2C%2045%2C%2059/hnum/9399509

And Archivmusic has issued them as ArchivCDs, though you may be able to pick them up used for less if you're patient.

Edit: the ArchivCDs are from a Japanese issue.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on February 16, 2009, 05:49:28 AM

Quote from: Daverz on February 16, 2009, 05:43:58 AM
Also available from JPC.

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Joseph%20Haydn%3A%20Symphonien%20Nr.%2039%2C%2045%2C%2059/hnum/9399509

And it looks like you can listen to extracts ..... unfortunately it probably won't go as far as the development section in the 1st mvmt of No 45 where the two horns are terrific .....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on February 16, 2009, 05:54:29 AM

Quote from: Lethe on February 16, 2009, 05:42:57 AM
Due to the infrequent recording of the S&D symphonies, there isn't as much choice as I would like (Kuijken for example has not recorded them), which is why I still consider Pinnock a good recommendation and I am happy to own the set.

Goodman/Hyperion A stylistic opposite of Pinnock, rough and ready, sometimes slightly ragged, continuo which at times sounds like a harpsichord concerto, something of a devil-may-care attitude, but not abandoning lyricism - all in all, a lot of fun but something to try before you buy (an revealing comparison with Pinnock may be in No.44).

I heard Hogwood a long time ago, but don't own them due to being OOP, and was very impressed at his usual mix of total immersion in the musicmaking and an attention to detail without damaging the spontinaity with any sense of slickness.

I heard Brüggen for the first time a week or two ago and have yet to decide how I feel about them. I found the conducting a little loose and with focus on some individual effects, perhaps at the cost of the long-line (which in a Haydn symphony is pretty bad, given how short they are anyway). I am very likely to revise this opinion the more I hear them, though.

I wish there were more sets of the S&D symphonies recorded, as their interest is equal to the Paris and London sets due to their relative neglect...

Yes, Kuijken is my favourite, both for the Paris and London symphonies. Wonderful performances. A pity that he din't record the S&D series ....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 06:57:38 AM

Quote from: alkan on February 16, 2009, 05:23:19 AM
Out of curiosity, what are your preferences for these symphonies ??
Thx ... Alkan

I actually prefer the modern instrument performance by Adam Fischer and the Austro-Hungarian Orchestra. I have the entire sets of symphonies that came in 6 or 8 sets. I do not recall the exact number of sets as I bought them over 2 or 3 years ago. I have often been a skeptic when period instruments are extended to beyond the baroque music ...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Josquin des Prez on February 16, 2009, 10:40:59 AM

Quote from: alkan on February 16, 2009, 05:54:29 AM
Yes, Kuijken is my favourite, both for the Paris and London symphonies.

Have you heard Harnoncourt's paris set?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 11:56:59 AM

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on February 16, 2009, 10:40:59 AM
Have you heard Harnoncourt's paris set?

I actually have never heard of any Haydn symphonies conducted by Harnoncourt on CD (I may have some recordings on LP). Given the excellent performance he gave for the Schubert symphonies he conducted with the RCO, I would imagine Harnoncourt should be capable of giving another stellar performance here. While Haydn and Schubert were from different eras, they both belonged to the Viennese school ...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on February 16, 2009, 12:07:52 PM

Quote from: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 11:56:59 AM
I actually have never heard of any Haydn symphonies conducted by Harnoncourt on CD (I may have some recordings on LP). Given the excellent performance he gave for the Schubert symphonies he conducted with the RCO, I would imagine Harnoncourt should be capable of giving another stellar performance here. While Haydn and Schubert were from different eras, they both belonged to the Viennese school ...

Harnoncourt's Haydn is superb. Can't go wrong with the cheap reissue of his earlier recordings (Warner/Teldec), and the new(ish) set with Paris symphonies (DHM) is great as well.

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0825646965069.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61FW9MBCSJL._SS400_.jpg)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 12:18:49 PM

Quote from: Que on February 16, 2009, 12:07:52 PM
Harnoncourt's Haydn is superb. Can't go wrong with the cheap reissue of his earlier recordings (Warner/Teldec), and the new(ish) set with Paris symphonies (DHM) is great as well.

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0825646965069.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61FW9MBCSJL._SS400_.jpg)

Q

These sets were performed by the Concentus Musicus of Vienna instead of the full-sized orchestra, the RCO Harnoncourt conducted for the Schubert Symphonies. I have always looked at Haydn as a transition figure from baroque to classical and wondered if his symphonies should be performed by a small ensemble instead of a full-sized orchestra ...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on February 16, 2009, 12:22:41 PM

Quote from: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 12:18:49 PM
These sets were performed by the Concentus Musicus of Vienna instead of the full-sized orchestra, the RCO Harnoncourt conducted for the Schubert Symphonies. I have always looked at Haydn as a transition figure from baroque to classical and wondered if his symphonies should be performed by a small ensemble instead of a full-sized orchestra ...

Pardon me, but what on earth is a "full sized" orchestra? You mean the biggest sized orchestra?

An orchestra should have the size and composition necessary for the music at hand IMO.
Anyway, I would encourage you to satisfy your curiosity! :)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 12:36:38 PM

Quote from: Que on February 16, 2009, 12:22:41 PM
Pardon me, but what on earth is a "full sized" orchestra? You mean the biggest sized orchestra?

An orchestra should have the size and composition necessary for the music at hand IMO.
Anyway, I would encourage you to satisfy your curiosity! :)

Q

Concentus Musicus or the Academy of Ancient Music does not have the same number of members as the BPO and RCO. It is plain and simple. You can call an SUV a car but it is not a car in my book.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 16, 2009, 04:28:12 PM

Quote from: Que on February 16, 2009, 12:22:41 PM
Pardon me, but what on earth is a "full sized" orchestra? You mean the biggest sized orchestra?

An orchestra should have the size and composition necessary for the music at hand IMO.
Anyway, I would encourage you to satisfy your curiosity! :)

Hello Q - yes, same confusion here about a BIG orchestra - should Haydn be played w/ the size orchestra he was familiar w/ in his times, i.e. 18th century, and w/ the instruments of the times, esp. the woodwinds (including tunings, strings - gut, etc.) - don't think that Papa Joe would even understand his music being performed by a late Romantic orchestra approaching 100 members!

A few months ago, I was reading the book shown below The Birth of the Orchestra (subtitled 'History of an Institution, 1650-1815) - this is an in-depth analysis of orchestral development, the latter half during Haydn's times; to be honest this is really appropriate for a college textbook, so did skip over a lot of parts; but out of curiosity concerning the SIZE of orchestras back then, I did a brief compilation of the appendices concerning the size of orchestras during the periods of Haydn's composing; below is just a summary:

Orchestra Sampling (yrs) Number Range Average

1754-1759 23 10-50 29
1773-1779 33 12-68 33
1791-1796 43 10-86 34

Sorry, but can't get these titles & columns to 'line up' easily! :-\

But the point is that during Haydn's times, orchestras likely averaged only 20-30 players (the larger ones in the ranges listed were operatic/theater groups); plus, the wind instruments were still in a stage of development and were wood back then; the keyboards were organ, harpsichord, or fortepianos. Of course, the string instruments were likely gut, and the mode of playing, tuning, etc. different from modern orchestras; I'm w/ Q, the orchestras used in Haydn's times were 'small' in comparison to our modern ones, the ratio & types of instruments (esp. the winds) were different, and the performance practices likely not the same. To me the Haydn Symphonies sound wonderful if well played regardless of the orchestra (and I have about half of his output by nearly a half dozen performers), but would be FUN to hear these as did Papa Joe - :D

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51hAAOVLkNL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 04:56:16 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on February 16, 2009, 04:28:12 PM
Hello Q - yes, same confusion here about a BIG orchestra - should Haydn be played w/ the size orchestra he was familiar w/ in his times, i.e. 18th century, and w/ the instruments of the times, esp. the woodwinds (including tunings, strings - gut, etc.) - don't think that Papa Joe would even understand his music being performed by a late Romantic orchestra approaching 100 members!

That was exactly the point I was trying to make. Concentus Musicus probably has no more than 20-30 members while the BPO or RCO has up to 100 members. Now when the BPO or RCO plays a Haydn symphony, does it really scale down to the size of a Concentus Musicus? I doubt it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 16, 2009, 05:05:44 PM

Quote from: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 04:56:16 PM
That was exactly the point I was trying to make. Concentus Musicus probably has no more than 20-30 members while the BPO or RCO has up to 100 members. Now when the BPO or RCO plays a Haydn symphony, does it really scale down to the size of a Concentus Musicus? I doubt it.

Actually, they well might do. I was in Atlanta not long ago and the symphony played Haydn with only 32 players on stage. When they later did some Franck, they had well over 100. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 06:31:51 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 16, 2009, 05:05:44 PM
Actually, they well might do. I was in Atlanta not long ago and the symphony played Haydn with only 32 players on stage. When they later did some Franck, they had well over 100. :)

8)

It will be interesting to know how many players Karajan actually used when he and the BPO performed the Haydn symphonies ...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 16, 2009, 06:48:22 PM

Quote from: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 06:31:51 PM
It will be interesting to know how many players Karajan actually used when he and the BPO performed the Haydn symphonies ...

Yes, that is the sort of info I am interested in. Unfortunately, when those recordings were made, very few people cared about such things. :-\

Anyway, when playing at Esterhazy, Haydn's orchestra was more or less equivalent to a larger chamber orchestra today. So on modern instruments, groups like the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra actually hit the sound just about right. Since I haven't seen it mentioned yet, I will say that my favorite recordings on period instruments are by Tafelmusik/Weil. FWIW, they are the size of a larger chamber orchestra... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on February 16, 2009, 09:36:10 PM

Quote from: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 12:36:38 PM
Concentus Musicus or the Academy of Ancient Music does not have the same number of members as the BPO and RCO. It is plain and simple. You can call an SUV a car but it is not a car in my book.

I did not mean to play with words. My point was that "full sized" seems to imply that a late 19th/early 20th century style symphony orchestra is the standard to wich other types of orchestras are measured. But maybe that is not what you meant anyway. :)

Quote from: SonicMan on February 16, 2009, 04:28:12 PM
Hello Q - yes, same confusion here about a BIG orchestra - should Haydn be played w/ the size orchestra he was familiar w/ in his times, i.e. 18th century, and w/ the instruments of the times, esp. the woodwinds (including tunings, strings - gut, etc.) - don't think that Papa Joe would even understand his music being performed by a late Romantic orchestra approaching 100 members!

A few months ago, I was reading the book shown below The Birth of the Orchestra (subtitled 'History of an Institution, 1650-1815) (...)

Interesting post, Dave! :)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Coopmv on February 17, 2009, 05:02:51 PM

Quote from: Que on February 16, 2009, 09:36:10 PM
I did not mean to play with words. My point was that "full sized" seems to imply that a late 19th/early 20th century style symphony orchestra is the standard to wich other types of orchestras are measured. But maybe that is not what you meant anyway. :)

Interesting post, Dave! :)

Q

This is a fair statement. Naturally, I am speaking based on what I know as a full-sized, 20th century orchestra such as a BPO or a RCO and not the typical orchestra prevalent at Haydn's time. The question then is whether these orchestras get scaled down for Haydn symphonies. Karajan himself performed quite a few Haydn symphonies with the BPO though some of you probably do not consider those as his better performance. I am still curious as to whether he performed with the full-sized BPO. If so, does it automatically make it a lousy performance?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on February 17, 2009, 05:06:01 PM

Quote from: Que on February 16, 2009, 09:36:10 PM
I did not mean to play with words. My point was that "full sized" seems to imply that a late 19th/early 20th century style symphony orchestra is the standard to wich other types of orchestras are measured.

Perhaps if we adopt the term portly here . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on February 17, 2009, 09:42:05 PM

Quote from: Coopmv on February 17, 2009, 05:02:51 PM
The question then is whether these orchestras get scaled down for Haydn symphonies.

Yes they are. However I'm no sure whether they'd fo all the way to 32.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on February 20, 2009, 12:27:29 AM

The past couple days I listened to the Nomos Qt Haydn Opus 50. It's a fine 2cd set. I don't think there is a perfect recording of this music. I think it's too bad the first violinist makes things so hard on himself, by denying himself all use of vibrato.

The Nomos is a modern-instrument ensemble, but they did talk extensively with Nikolaus Harnoncourt. N.H. is a great conductor but I'm beginning to wonder whether we want him to have so much influence. I can name dozens of performers - conductors, soloist, chamber ensembles - who have consulted him on performance practices, and if I hear one more 100% vibrato-less violinist I'm going to scream (with vibrato).

I listened to the D major Op.50/6 by the Nomos and the Angeles, and the latter ensemble allows itself much more expressive means.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on February 20, 2009, 10:04:59 AM

My favorites:

Opps. 20, 33, and 64 (Quatuor Mosaiques)
Op. 50 (Quatuor Festetics or the Tokyo Q)
Opps. 54, 74 (Kodaly and/or Endellion)
Op. 64 (Quatuor Mosaiques)
op.76 (Kodaly and/or Quatuor Mosaiques)
op.77 (Kodaly, accept no substitutes)

You could buy the whole Kodaly set and be mostly satisfied (the only issue I have with their set is op. 55 with the most jaw achingly boring "Razor" I've ever heard).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DFO on February 20, 2009, 10:06:56 AM

The best Haydn SQ I ever heard is the 6 op.50 by the old Tokyo on DGG. Originally on vinyls, transfered to CD some years ago, and now totally out.
For the complete set, my favorite still is the old Schneider SQ

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on February 20, 2009, 10:17:46 AM

Add the op 76 by the Budapest.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: ChamberNut on February 20, 2009, 10:19:51 AM

Quote from: AndyD. on February 20, 2009, 10:04:59 AM
op.77 (Kodaly, accept no substitutes)

Yup, I should have gone with this one. I have the Sony recording of L'Archibudelli. I honestly think it's the worst CD I have in my entire collection. Dishwater, sock soup, boring as hell. :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on February 20, 2009, 10:20:48 AM

I see we're back to "the best"

Quote from: AndyD. on February 20, 2009, 10:04:59 AM
You could buy the whole Kodaly set and be mostly satisfied

Only if you don't really care. The Kodaly is just routine, middle of the road playing. Maybe there's one or two discs that are really good, but that's all.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on February 20, 2009, 10:28:54 AM

Quote from: Herman on February 20, 2009, 10:20:48 AM
I see we're back to "the best"

Only if you don't really care. The Kodaly is just routine, middle of the road playing. Maybe there's one or two discs that are really good, but that's all.

You made your (excellent) point. To me most of the Kodaly is often thrilling...marvellously played with a very good recorded sound. Different strokes right?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on February 20, 2009, 12:02:39 PM

Quote from: Herman on February 20, 2009, 10:20:48 AM
The Kodaly is just routine, middle of the road playing. Maybe there's one or two discs that are really good, but that's all.

I'm afraid I have to concur with this. ::) In any case, they failed to keep me interested.

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on February 20, 2009, 12:06:25 PM

Quote from: Que on February 20, 2009, 12:02:39 PM
I'm afraid I have to concur with this. ::)

Q

That's really interesting. Opps. 76 and 77 are outstanding to my ears. I must say now that you mention it that some of the older SQs can be yawn inducing.

I stand by my appraisal of the above two opuses. They have been consistently inspiring to me for several years now. But I guess it's just me. Oh well, as long as I like 'em right?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on February 20, 2009, 12:12:01 PM

Quote from: AndyD. on February 20, 2009, 12:06:25 PM

That's really interesting. Opps. 76 and 77 are outstanding to my ears. I must say now that you mention it that some of the older SQs can be yawn inducing.

I used to have their Opus 76.

Quote from: AndyD. on February 20, 2009, 12:06:25 PMI stand by my appraisal of the above two opuses. They have been consistently inspiring to me for several years now. But I guess it's just me. Oh well, as long as I like 'em right?

goes without saying.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: prémont on February 20, 2009, 12:32:11 PM

Quote from: val on October 18, 2007, 01:02:33 AM
But the point is that I don't believe, in art, in any kind of recreation of an historical style. Adolf Busch was HIP in 1935, Munchinger in 1955, Goebel in 1985, Koopman today.

Interesting considerations. HIP is nothing new, or something Harnoncourt invented. HIP means historically informed performance, but the degree (and awareness) of historical information has been gradually increasing during the last hundred years. Münchinger was relatively informed. This is why Münchinger was HIP for his time, but explains also why he can not be considered HIP in relation to our present references.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Valentino on February 20, 2009, 12:40:36 PM

I have bought everything by Mosaïques apart from in op. 51 (7 last words...) where I chose Emerson wisely. QM is the Haydn band anyway.

Kodaly are ok in op. 9, nice I'd say. The Hagen Quartett disc of op. 1/1, 64/4 and 74/3 is a treasure. And the old Hungarian Qt again in 64/4 is nice. I'll see what Nomos can give in op. 50. The teasers sound just right to me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on February 20, 2009, 12:51:25 PM

Quote from: Valentino on February 20, 2009, 12:40:36 PM
I have bought everything by Mosaïques apart from in op. 51 (7 last words...) where I chose Emerson wisely. QM is the Haydn band anyway.

Kodaly are ok in op. 9, nice I'd say. The Hagen Quartett disc of op. 1/1, 64/4 and 74/3 is a treasure. And the old Hungarian Qt again in 64/4 is nice. I'll see what Nomos can give in op. 50. The teasers sound just right to me.

I've had many affirming experiences with QM 20 especially, and their 33, 64 and 76 are quite great as well. Just my opinion.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Valentino on February 20, 2009, 02:40:35 PM

You know, Andy. In here it's only about opinions. Some more well funded than others, but still just opinions.

I'd never buy music I didn't like. I might buy music on recommendations made by people I didn't know were lacking my own good taste, though. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on February 20, 2009, 03:30:06 PM

Quote from: Valentino on February 20, 2009, 02:40:35 PM
You know, Andy. In here it's only about opinions. Some more well funded than others, but still just opinions.

;D

Was that missing "o" intentional ;)?

I guess I worry alot about people getting their flame on. To a degree, I can understand, because let's face it, few things in life provoke such passionate responses as music. But I don't want to come across as though my opinion is better than anyone elses', because it's probably worse.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Valentino on February 20, 2009, 10:29:17 PM

Quote from: AndyD. on February 20, 2009, 03:30:06 PM
Was that missing "o" intentional ;)?

No. But English is not my first language, so I don't get all the jokes, and sometimes not all the characters.
What "o"?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on February 20, 2009, 11:58:52 PM

Quote from: Valentino on February 20, 2009, 12:40:36 PM
I have bought everything by Mosaïques apart from in op. 51 (7 last words...) [...]. QM is the Haydn band anyway.

What makes you think so? Does this mean there was no good Haydn SQ playing before the Mosaiques started?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Valentino on February 21, 2009, 12:19:22 AM

1. My personal opinion.
2. No.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on February 21, 2009, 12:40:39 AM

So... next step is how did you arrive at this opinion?

In other words, why do you think the Mosaiques is the Haydn quartet?

What do they do that others don't?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on February 21, 2009, 01:32:05 AM

Quote from: Herman on February 21, 2009, 12:40:39 AM
So... next step is how did you arrive at this opinion?

In other words, why do you think the Mosaiques is the Haydn quartet?

What do they do that others don't?

a)Excellent recorded sound. Everything sounds eq'd perfectly: big yet defined bass, restrained mid, never-scratchy highs.

b) Tight, yet human performances: almost never sloppy with the intonation (just enough "mistakes" to make the performace sound like human beings played the piece, not Pro Tools).

c) The quartet also has a hard-to-describe warmth to their interpretations that carries from one cd to the next. It's like their own personality, and that personality can sound quite individual, while retaining the unique dynamics in Haydn's work. There's never a "blurred " aspect in any of the QM's performances of Haydn. You probably know what I mean by blurred: I think many performers (and the Kodaly has been guilty, as well as the Festetics and Talich to a lesser degree) can find the number of Haydn quartets daunting, and seemt to phone in their performance early to mid period in the set, rushing and/or sleeping through until the classic quartets written after Mozart's death. I've never heard the QM do that. Listen to their op. 20 and hear/feel the warm sound that they maintain throughout. Very effecting and effective.

Do I think that QM have these qualities and the other performers don't? No. But QM seems to have more of and more consistently overall.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on February 23, 2009, 06:01:30 AM

Regarding Solomons Haydn - how much was recorded? Presumably a lot more than was issued on the now OOP (other than via Arkiv's reissue) 3 CD Sturm und Drang set?

I've just started listening to some earlier symphonies ripped from LPs, and the 1st sounds very nice, playing with some pep. The problem is the rip sounds like crap, and a lot of Solomons Haydn symphonies seem to have dropped off the face of the earth...

This music is crying out for some kind of budget box reissue - are the rights spread over different labels? Some seem to be on Sony, but the blurb to this vinyl rip says it is from a Saga LP - I think that is a different company rather than a sub-label?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 23, 2009, 02:22:49 PM

Quote from: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 12:18:49 PM
These sets were performed by the Concentus Musicus of Vienna instead of the full-sized orchestra, the RCO Harnoncourt conducted for the Schubert Symphonies. I have always looked at Haydn as a transition figure from baroque to classical and wondered if his symphonies should be performed by a small ensemble instead of a full-sized orchestra ...

Haydn composed the Paris symphonies for the large Parisian orchestra called "Le Concert de la loge 'Olympique.'" It included 40 violins and ten double basses...a modern sized symphony orchestra, in other words. I don't see any reason for a modern orchestra to scale down...not that I mind hearing the works that way but I think Karajan, Bernstein and Davis's big band approach is just as valid, and we can assume Haydn would approve.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on February 24, 2009, 02:27:59 AM

Quote from: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 04:56:16 PM
That was exactly the point I was trying to make. Concentus Musicus probably has no more than 20-30 members while the BPO or RCO has up to 100 members. Now when the BPO or RCO plays a Haydn symphony, does it really scale down to the size of a Concentus Musicus? I doubt it.

1.) Haydn used orchestras as large as he could get. For most of the Esterhazy Symphonies, that means ~30 and much varied depending to player availability.
Works like the London Symphonies made use of much larger ensembles and a work like the Creation got its official premiere with a quadrupling of winds (and corresponding string body)... which stems, not the least, from Haydn being very impressed with the gargantuan English Oratorio tradition.
2.) Yes, the BPO or RCO do scale down for Haydn -- and Yes, NOT ALL THE WAY. They shouldn't, either, because playing Haydn well is the precondition of playing romantic repertoire well. ("Why Haydn Should be Mandatory (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=340)")
3.) Concentus Musicus is flexible. When I watched Harnoncourt rehearse them in Haydn Masses in Salzburg this January, they were well over 40 players... maybe even shy above 50.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on February 24, 2009, 02:54:51 AM

Quote from: Lethe on February 23, 2009, 06:01:30 AM
Regarding Solomons Haydn - how much was recorded? Presumably a lot more than was issued on the now OOP (other than via Arkiv's reissue) 3 CD Sturm und Drang set?

I've just started listening to some earlier symphonies ripped from LPs, and the 1st sounds very nice, playing with some pep. The problem is the rip sounds like crap, and a lot of Solomons Haydn symphonies seem to have dropped off the face of the earth...

This music is crying out for some kind of budget box reissue - are the rights spread over different labels? Some seem to be on Sony, but the blurb to this vinyl rip says it is from a Saga LP - I think that is a different company rather than a sub-label?

In reply to your question, here is what I have

(1) A 3 CD set with nos 42, 45, 46, 47, 51, 65
(2) A 2 CD set with nos 35, 38, 39, 49, 58, 59
(3) A single CD with nos 45 and 48

I heard a rumour that no 26 has also been recorded, but no trace of anything else unfortunately.

Glad to hear that you like them, despite the poor sound quality. I think there is a cheap CD with 39, 45 and 59 which contains two of my absolute favourites (39 and 45).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on February 24, 2009, 03:37:09 AM

Thanks :) I am holding out for the majors to finally get a grip in the next few years and begin to offer entire back catalogues as lossless downloads. If they don't do it soon, they're going to go out of business. This conductor's Haydn is a fine example of the recording industry not working.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on February 24, 2009, 03:50:07 AM

Hi Lethe, could you please check your PM ?? I sending you a message .....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: nut-job on February 24, 2009, 03:21:01 PM

Quote from: Coopmv on February 16, 2009, 04:56:16 PM
That was exactly the point I was trying to make. Concentus Musicus probably has no more than 20-30 members while the BPO or RCO has up to 100 members. Now when the BPO or RCO plays a Haydn symphony, does it really scale down to the size of a Concentus Musicus? I doubt it.

This is the RCO with a decidedly old-school conductor. We only see the front of the orchestra, but I don't get the impression that there are anywhere near 100 musician on stage?

(http://img.verycd.com/posts/0601/post-328001-1136731342.jpg)

Quote from: jlaurson on February 24, 2009, 02:27:59 AM
1.) Haydn used orchestras as large as he could get. For most of the Esterhazy Symphonies, that means ~30 and much varied depending to player availability.
Works like the London Symphonies made use of much larger ensembles and a work like the Creation got its official premiere with a quadrupling of winds (and corresponding string body)... which stems, not the least, from Haydn being very impressed with the gargantuan English Oratorio tradition.

Haydn also wrote differently when he was expecting a performance by a large ensemble. I think there is an argument for performance by an ensemble of appropriate size.

Quote
2.) Yes, the BPO or RCO do scale down for Haydn -- and Yes, NOT ALL THE WAY. They shouldn't, either, because playing Haydn well is the precondition of playing romantic repertoire well. ("Why Haydn Should be Mandatory (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=340)")

The size of the hall is an issue. In a large hall a small ensemble sounds inadequate and a big ensemble is necessary. In a recording the more intimate sound state obtained with a small ensemble can be an advantage.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on March 09, 2009, 01:39:00 AM

So, what's this then? :D And this? :D

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/54/1064654.jpg) (http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/09/1063609.jpg)

Disc I: 6 Scherzandi; Content (http://www.bis.se/index.php?op=album&aID=BIS-SACD-1812)
Discs II & III: Baryton Octets;
Disc IV: 'Concerti a Due Lire' for the King of Naples;
Discs V & VI: Notturni for the King of Naples

Complete content (http://www.bis.se/index.php?op=album&aID=BIS-CD-1796-98)
Review on Classicstoday (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=12124) (Hurwitzer)

Looks like when Manfred Huss went to BIS, the rights of his previous recordings on Koch went along with him.

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gabriel on March 09, 2009, 03:03:58 AM

Quote from: Que on March 09, 2009, 01:39:00 AM
So, what's this then? :D And this? :D

I saw the first set some days ago in a store. I guess I had the same face of joy, Que! ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Harry on March 09, 2009, 03:20:30 AM

And this ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 09, 2009, 09:42:06 AM

Quote from: Que on March 09, 2009, 01:39:00 AM
So, what's this then? :D And this? :D

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/54/1064654.jpg)

Disc I: 6 Scherzandi;

Looks like when Manfred Huss went to BIS, the rights of his previous recordings on Koch went along with him.

Q

I have this disk of the 6 Scherzandi on Koch/Swann. Very enjoyable, and really, amazingly prescient of his future style (they were composed in 1761). This looks like a nice return of some good music to the catalog! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on March 09, 2009, 12:41:52 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 09, 2009, 09:42:06 AM
I have this disk of the 6 Scherzandi on Koch/Swann. Very enjoyable, and really, amazingly prescient of his future style (they were composed in 1761). This looks like a nice return of some good music to the catalog! :)

8)

That release looks mighty fine. :)
The three discs with works for the King of Naples seem enticing, though I already have the Notturni by the L'Archibudelli.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51N32FFRW4L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

But it occurred to me that I'll soon own all (three) available recordings of the Baryton Octets! :)
This one includes them, I already have the Ricercar issue (wonderful BTW) and I discovered that the Brilliant issue of the Baryton Trios also includes the Octets and duos and a few works for baryton solo! :o I'm already overwhelmed by all this Haydn Luxury. ;D

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/4350781.jpg)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 09, 2009, 12:55:26 PM

Quote from: Que on March 09, 2009, 12:41:52 PM
That release looks mighty fine. :)
The three discs with works for the King of Naples seem enticing, though I already have the Notturni by the L'Archibudelli.

Q

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51N32FFRW4L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21PV9TT22GL._SL500_AA130_.jpg)

Those noturrni are nice works. I just wanted to point out that these 2 versions are very different. The one by Consortium Classicum is the original arrangement from 1786 (7?). Since lire organnizatta no longer exist, they replaced it with the most marvelous sounding little barrel organ. The second version, the one by L'Archibudelli & Mozzafiato) is of the arrangements that Haydn made when these works were performed in London. The lire is replaced by standard instruments, the organ part is mainly in the flute. I don't which version that the Huss disk uses. If it is the first arrangement, I would be curious what instrument that he used to replace the lire. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on March 09, 2009, 01:11:04 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 09, 2009, 12:55:26 PM

Those noturrni are nice works. I just wanted to point out that these 2 versions are very different. The one by Consortium Classicum is the original arrangement from 1786 (7?). Since lire organnizatta no longer exist, they replaced it with the most marvelous sounding little barrel organ. The second version, the one by L'Archibudelli & Mozzafiato) is of the arrangements that Haydn made when these works were performed in London. The lire is replaced by standard instruments, the organ part is mainly in the flute. I don't which version that the Huss disk uses. If it is the first arrangement, I would be curious what instrument that he used to replace the lire. :)

This is what BIS has to say about it:
'Concerti a Due Lire' for the King of Naples (1786) for flute, oboe, 2 horns, 2 violins, 2 violas, violoncello and violone*

* Concerto No. 1 is played by two flutes rather than flute and oboe

So, the 2nd version it seems. :)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 09, 2009, 01:21:05 PM

Quote from: Que on March 09, 2009, 01:11:04 PM
This is what BIS has to say about it:
'Concerti a Due Lire' for the King of Naples (1786) for flute, oboe, 2 horns, 2 violins, 2 violas, violoncello and violone*

* Concerto No. 1 is played by two flutes rather than flute and oboe

So, the 2nd version it seems. :)

Q

Oh, I see now. Those are the concerti rather than the notturni. They are different works (Hob II opposed to Hob VIIh). The only concerti I have are on that "Delirium" disk. Which is not all of them, I don't think (in fact, on checking, I see it is one concerto and 2 notturni). So, this is even more interesting, new music! :) In any case, I would agree, these are later arrangements that Haydn made, not the original scoring (it must have been hard to fill that part even in the day, outside of Italy). :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on March 09, 2009, 01:31:19 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 09, 2009, 01:21:05 PM
Oh, I see now. Those are the concerti rather than the notturni. They are different works (Hob II opposed to Hob VIIh). The only concerti I have are on that "Delirium" disk. Which is not all of them, I don't think (in fact, on checking, I see it is one concerto and 2 notturni). So, this is even more interesting, new music! :) In any case, I would agree, these are later arrangements that Haydn made, not the original scoring (it must have been hard to fill that part even in the day, outside of Italy). :)

8)

Oh, Oh, I mixed up things! ::)

Full content of the issue is attached. But it seems the Notturni are scored with flute(s) as well. :)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 09, 2009, 01:37:16 PM

Quote from: Que on March 09, 2009, 01:31:19 PM
Oh, Oh, I mixed up things! ::)

Full content of the issue is attached. But it seems the Notturni are scored with flute(s) as well. :)

Q

OK, the notturni are the 2nd version too. Dadgum, I think I'll have to get this box, it looks like a delight. :) Thanks for the listings, Q.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 12, 2009, 03:59:24 PM

Well, just reviewed most of this excellent thread (w/ a number of posts by myself) and glad that it has been 'kept alived' for nearly 2 years now - for those just getting into Papa Joe, some good recommendations; of course, his main 'output' for many interested are the Symphonies & String Quartets (many of us here have a LOT more!) - now, I'm pretty 'set' on the String Quartets, and I do own a lot of the Symphonies, but a 'mixed bag' of recordings w/ a lot of duplications.

So, maybe a good time to return to his Symphonies, i.e. I'd like to obtain a 'Complete Set' - the Fischer 33-CD box seems to be one of the top choices (already own a bunch of these performances) and just over $80 on the Amazon Marketplace; also own a lot of Goodman, which I enjoy, but not sure if a complete box (if even available) has been offered; I know that there are likely few choices, but 'anything new' that may have appeared in the last year or so that may be of interest - thanks all! :D

P.S. - of course, the HIP vs. modern orchestra will also come into this consideration, as applicable - ;)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51L3NY-n5xL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on March 12, 2009, 04:49:12 PM

The Fischer set is essential at the moment, and will be for the forseeable future. While it is quite easy to suppliment a collection with additional S&D, Paris and London sets, the Dorati or Fischer sets are the only effective way to collect the interesting in-between works, and in terms of quality Fischer and his orchestra is miles ahead of Dorati IMHO.

While I have many other recordings of the symphonies, Fischer remains either my only or one of my top choices for the under-recorded works. The only slight downside is that he is too heavy in the early works, but fortunately there have been HIP recordings of at least some of those (Pinnock, Solomons - OOP, etc).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 12, 2009, 04:51:20 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on March 12, 2009, 03:59:24 PM
Well, just reviewed most of this excellent thread (w/ a number of posts by myself) and glad that it has been 'kept alived' for nearly 2 years now - for those just getting into Papa Joe, some good recommendations; of course, his main 'output' for many interested are the Symphonies & String Quartets (many of us here have a LOT more!) - now, I'm pretty 'set' on the String Quartets, and I do own a lot of the Symphonies, but a 'mixed bag' of recordings w/ a lot of duplications.

So, maybe a good time to return to his Symphonies, i.e. I'd like to obtain a 'Complete Set' - the Fischer 33-CD box seems to be one of the top choices (already own a bunch of these performances) and just over $80 on the Amazon Marketplace; also own a lot of Goodman, which I enjoy, but not sure if a complete box (if even available) has been offered; I know that there are likely few choices, but 'anything new' that may have appeared in the last year or so that may be of interest - thanks all! :D

P.S. - of course, the HIP vs. modern orchestra will also come into this consideration, as applicable - ;)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51L3NY-n5xL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Yes, Dave, for reasons which defy common logic ("Oh, I hate Haydn, he sucks... :P "), we may have even made a few converts! I hope so, Haydn truly was a musical fountainhead!

Well, IMO you simply can't go wrong with the Fischer set. The playing is excellent, the sound is great, the price is right; what more could you ask? As for HIPness, one of M's "pearls of wisdom" (and he had a lot of them, despite the herd of swine that often came along with them... ::) ) was that Fisher's interpretations were more HIP than a lot of period versions are. And I tend to agree with that. These are players (from Central Europe, particularly Vienna) that have Haydn in their blood. They play great, and precisely how they should do.

And now, stop and think a minute, amigo. You have been holding back on that Complete Haydn box although you covet the baryton works in it, and you need the fortepiano trios and complete fortepiano works, you would like more of the string quartets from that set, and you are thinking about spending over half the cost of that box on something that is included in it already... hmmmm.... ;)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment / Kuijken - Hob 01 082 Symphony #82 in C 1st mvmt - Vivace assai

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 12, 2009, 05:02:43 PM

Sara & Gurn - well, as you can imagine my 'trigger finger' was about to be pulled! ;) ;D

Already own about half dozen of the Fischer discs & a similar amount of the Goodman (plus, many others in the last Symphonies) - think that I can get about $20 from selling some of these CDs to a friend, so about $2 per disc - hard to beat that price! May go for it - Dave - :) Thanks for the comments!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on March 16, 2009, 10:35:55 PM

Does anyone have any recent discoveries or particular favourites amongst his symphonies?

I recently became enamored with the 39th, with its stormy opening movement (after hushed introduction) reminding me of Mozart's little G minor in the same key. Then there is that finale, which along with the 44th is among his most turbulent. Currently I have found myself attracted to his strange 46th. After the major 44 and 45, this is a much more compact work with some unusual features. The overall mood is typical unease for this period of his music, but it is not caused by that much overt drama, the work simply has a restless or ghostly quality to it which is reinforced by some formal differences to his other works including a very tight opening which is pinned down by a repeating four note theme similar to no.44, but used almost as a book-end between quiet passages rather than to begin a large theme. The finale is extremely odd, with a relaxed progress at odds with Haydn's usual motoring drive in these movements. It is full of small pauses and little impish skittering, sounding a little like a middle movement rather than a finale. Performers seem to have more diverse takes on this symphony than most of his others. Fischer plays up the contrasts, Brüggen seems to better highlight the mysterious qualities.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Renfield on March 17, 2009, 01:05:14 AM

Argh. Here I am, postponing my Haydn exploration for (yet more) late symphonic repertoire, and now you're going and tempting me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on March 17, 2009, 01:47:05 AM

Quote from: Renfield on March 17, 2009, 01:05:14 AM
Argh. Here I am, postponing my Haydn exploration for (yet more) late symphonic repertoire, and now you're going and tempting me.

I have been doing the opposite of that, making my listening rather more unbalanced -_- I think that Haydn (along with Mozart, Bach and Beethoven - less so the later Romantics) is one of those composers that when they bite you, it is possible to live in their world for a very long time without much regard for external happenings... Just say no :'(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mark4mich on March 30, 2009, 01:50:46 PM

I have very little Haydn in my collection. Have the Paris and London Symphonies. MDT has special offers on Haydn. Was thinking of complete String Quartets by Angeles Quartet, complete Piano Sonatas by Buchbinder (are Jando, McCabe or Brautigan preferable), complete Piano Trios by Beaux Arts. Any thoughts on these selections? Any other recommendations to building a Haydn collection?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bulldog on March 30, 2009, 01:53:22 PM

Getting off the "complete" plateau, I'd recommend the few piano sonata discs on Philips from Brendel. Although I do have a complete piano sonata box on Brilliant Classics, I always head first for Brendel.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Todd on March 30, 2009, 02:05:11 PM

Complete Haydn sets can take quite a while to digest, though some complete sets make sense. The Beaux Arts Trio set of complete piano trios is very worthwhile. For the sonatas, Brautigam is vastly better than McCabe. (I haven't heard, and do not plan to hear, the Buchbinder.) For the string quartets, the Angeles are good, but much better can be had in a number of the quartets. I've thought about swapping it for the Tatrai at some point, but I don't know if I'd be better off in the end. (The Tatrai have one of the best Op 64 & 76 on the market, though.) I'm surprised you didn't mention the complete symphonies.

Some non-complete recordins to consider might include:

Symphonies:
Paris & London - Harnoncourt, Bernstein

String Quartets
Op 20 - Mosaiques
Op 33 - Mosaiques
Op 64 - Mosaiques, Tatrai
Op 76 - Mosaiques, Budapest, Tatrai
Op 77 - Mosaiques

Piano Trios
Complete - Beaux Arts Trio

Piano Sonatas
Recitals by Anton Kueri, Fazil Say, Marc Andre Hamelin, Andras Schiff, Zoltan Kocsis, Alfred Brendel

The Creation
McCreesh

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mark4mich on March 30, 2009, 04:34:35 PM

Thanks for the replies thus far. Don't have to go "complete" although sounds like the Beaux Arts trios are worthwhile. Are there specific piano sonatas and string quartets that you would start with? I already have recordings of the Paris and London Symphonies, so I would rather hold off on symphonies for now.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 30, 2009, 04:44:58 PM

This disc:

(http://www.hungaroton.hu/files/hungaroton/image/diskimages/HCD_11776.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on March 31, 2009, 12:04:38 AM

Quote from: mark4mich on March 30, 2009, 01:50:46 PM
I have very little Haydn in my collection. Have the Paris and London Symphonies. MDT has special offers on Haydn. Was thinking of complete String Quartets by Angeles Quartet, complete Piano Sonatas by Buchbinder (are Jando, McCabe or Brautigan preferable), complete Piano Trios by Beaux Arts. Any thoughts on these selections? Any other recommendations to building a Haydn collection?

Please check this very thread and also these threads:

Haydn's Keyboard Music (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,10864.0.html)
Haydn's Symphonies (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11942.0.html)
Piano Trios (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,5943.0.html)
Haydn String Quartets (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3866.100.html)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mark4mich on March 31, 2009, 04:46:18 AM

Thanks Que, newbie to this forum, much appreciated.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dr. Dread on March 31, 2009, 05:57:54 AM

Who do you like for a complete set?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 31, 2009, 06:02:36 AM

Well, this seems to have been the complete set that most here enjoyed:

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/jun02/Haydn_complete_Fischer_Brilliant.jpg)
$120 for 33 cds.

I waited on this thinking that this set would take care of it, which I believe it did:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-oKqkjIeL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
$195 for 150 cds.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bunny on March 31, 2009, 06:22:36 AM

I have the Fischer box set, enjoy it, but find that the late symphonies are the weakest. It needs to be supplemented in those, perhaps with Nikolaus Harnoncourt's box set of late symphonies done with the RCO. I see that you are showing the new Brilliant Classics Haydn box set that includes the Fischer symphonies. You know it can be found for about $165 if you look hard.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41WX85J3TSL._SS400_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dr. Dread on March 31, 2009, 06:23:18 AM

Thanks.

Has anyone even heard the Dorati?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 31, 2009, 06:24:11 AM

Quote from: Bunny on March 31, 2009, 06:22:36 AM
I have the Fischer box set, enjoy it, but find that the late symphonies are the weakest. It needs to be supplemented in those, perhaps with....
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41WX85J3TSL._SS400_.jpg)

Solti's efforts, though this Harnoncourt set looks very appealing.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jwinter on March 31, 2009, 06:24:51 AM

I have and like both sets, though I won't claim to have listened through every disc of both. I've had the Dorati for a longer time and have probably heard more of it, plus I like Dorati in many other recordings (particularly Tchaikovsky), so he gets my vote. Dorati's a bit more old-school (bigger forces and all that), but since I like Bohm & Krips in Mozart (for example) that doesn't bother me.

That said, I don't have a huge preference one over the other -- I think either set would be an excellent investment.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dr. Dread on March 31, 2009, 06:40:03 AM

I think a new repackaging of the Dorati hits in May.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jwinter on March 31, 2009, 06:48:00 AM

Yes, I've seen that. The current one is already pretty slim, just sleeves and the booklet. I understand the original LPs had really nice liner notes (on each symphony, I think -- never seen them); the current CDs have OK notes but I think they're already edited down considerably. Still, if the price is good, that's a lot of music, and you can always buy a book on Haydn with the savings. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 31, 2009, 06:50:21 AM

Quote from: Mn Dave on March 31, 2009, 06:40:03 AM
I think a new repackaging of the Dorati hits in May.

It's already out in Germany. I saw it the other day in a record shop (€44, I think). I was tempted but passed. I have part of it on LPs; I do like his style (e.g., minuets generally slower than is the norm today) but really, in the early and middle symphonies, I've come to prefer HIP performances. And in the later symphonies (82 and beyond) Szell, Harnoncourt, Klemperer, Davis are hard to beat.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on March 31, 2009, 07:13:13 AM

Quote from: mark4mich on March 31, 2009, 04:46:18 AM
Thanks Que, newbie to this forum, much appreciated.

Welcome, and have fun. :)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bunny on March 31, 2009, 07:17:02 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 31, 2009, 06:50:21 AM
It's already out in Germany. I saw it the other day in a record shop (€44, I think). I was tempted but passed. I have part of it on LPs; I do like his style (e.g., minuets generally slower than is the norm today) but really, in the early and middle symphonies, I've come to prefer HIP performances. And in the later symphonies (82 and beyond) Szell, Harnoncourt, Klemperer, Davis are hard to beat.

Sarge

Kuijken and La Petite Bande has a great set of the London Symphonies (HIP), as well as a nice sets of the Paris and "Channel" symphonies. Another ongoing cycle of Haydn Symphonies to watch are those by Thomas Fey with the Heidelberger Sinfoniker (Hänssler). Fey was a protegé of Harnoncourt and he uses a "hybrid" orchestra.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51v%2B0QatwaL._SS500_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51S2FA8ZX2L._SS400_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on March 31, 2009, 07:30:11 AM

I would read up reviews on the Van Swieten Trio cycle before clicking buy on the BAT, which used to be the standard (and therefore a "default" recommendation), but I would find the VST at least equal now...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on March 31, 2009, 08:02:50 AM

For reference, a list of incomplete HIP-related cycles (with more than just a few installments or a token London or Paris set):

Hogwood (L'Oiseau Lyre, multiple volumes, patchily available)
Brüggen (Philips, 13 CD box)
Fey (Hänssler, single CDs, a decent chance of eventual completion given the label's history)
Goodman (Hyperion Helios, 17 single CDs)
Solomons (CBS/Sony, almost all are impossible to find)
Pinnock (the Sturm und Drang ones have been reissued in a 6 CD box)
Weil (Sony, falling out of the catalogue)
Harnoncourt (Paris set on DHM, London set on Warner)
Kuijken (Paris set: Virgin, London set: DHM, misc syms: Virgin)

As a personal opinion, the Naxos cycle is too uneven and expensive, the Dorati cycle is totally outclassed in every respect by Fischer, and its only plus point is potentially its price (which Decca have finally realised in the cheap reissue). The Fischer is a brilliant set overall, the Londons are a bit weaker, but not much, and as might be expected, the early ones sound too heavy. 70%+ of the set, however, is rock solid.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: nut-job on March 31, 2009, 08:54:02 AM

Dorati's set is indispensible.

Harnoncourt's recordings with the Concertgebouw (London symphonies) Paris Symphonies (Concentus Musicus) and other miscellaneous symphonies (Concentus Musicus) are awesome. I had a few of the discs and spent years pining away for the other London symphonies before they were finally issued in a low prince box set, same for the other symphonies on Telefunken/Teldec/Warner.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on March 31, 2009, 10:09:31 AM

Quote from: Bunny on March 31, 2009, 07:17:02 AM
Another ongoing cycle of Haydn Symphonies to watch are those by Thomas Fey with the Heidelberger Sinfoniker (Hänssler). Fey was a protegé of Harnoncourt and he uses a "hybrid" orchestra.

The Fey recording I heard was terrible. All the bad Harnonvourt habits (crazy sforzandi, snappy brass and wild wild stuff) and none of the good ones, such as lyricism.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gabriel on March 31, 2009, 10:44:23 AM

Quote from: jwinter on March 31, 2009, 06:24:51 AM
That said, I don't have a huge preference one over the other -- I think either set would be an excellent investment.

I agree. Some symphonies are better in one set, some in the the other, but both are very consistent.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 31, 2009, 11:06:28 AM

I have recently been looking for the same thing, so well timed post.

If you are looking for the Brilliant set, I had found it for $85, but decided since there was no particular rush, but I decided to wait to see if I could pick it up for under $50. I have Davis in the London (excellent) and Kuijken for some of the 80-92 or so (disappointed with some of it). So I can keep myself tied over for a while. I was not able to find the Dorati for cheaper, but I figure someone will eventually have a good deal on one or the other. Both can be found at jpc for EUR50.

If you want mp3, they just came out with the Fischer version on 8 CDs of mp3s. Cost is about 20-23 pounds ($30ish). I believe they are all 320 kbps.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: nut-job on March 31, 2009, 11:06:42 AM

Quote from: Herman on March 31, 2009, 10:09:31 AM
The Fey recording I heard was terrible. All the bad Harnonvourt habits (crazy sforzandi, snappy brass and wild wild stuff) and none of the good ones, such as lyricism.

I don't consider those "habits" bad. I think I have Fey conducting a disc with Mozart Concerti, which I vaguely remember as superb.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 31, 2009, 01:21:34 PM

Quote from: Lethe on March 31, 2009, 07:30:11 AM
I would read up reviews on the Van Swieten Trio cycle before clicking buy on the BAT, which used to be the standard (and therefore a "default" recommendation), but I would find the VST at least equal now...

First, please follow & explore the links provided by Que - we've had many Haydn Threads, and plenty of recommendations; of course, you'll need to understand the HIP vs. non-HIP approaches to this music (and again, this discussion can be found in the links given).

Second, I would certainly endorse Sara's recommendation of the Piano Trios performed by the Van Swieten Trio - an outstanding HIP Brilliant box set (10 CDs), but the price is right (or use to be?) - but whatever you choose, there is so much of Haydn to appreciate that the music almost seems inexhaustible @ times - :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51K84MKR8JL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jhar26 on March 31, 2009, 03:33:42 PM

Quote from: Mn Dave on March 31, 2009, 06:23:18 AM
Thanks.

Has anyone even heard the Dorati?

I have the Dorati set (8 four-disc sets released in the early 90's) . It's inevitably a bit old fashionned and the sound isn't as transparent as you get with period instruments but it's nevertheless a solid set. I'm sure that there are better recordings available of nearly all of these symphonies, but I doubt if anyone would be disappointed by the set as a whole.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bunny on March 31, 2009, 03:37:56 PM

Quote from: Herman on March 31, 2009, 10:09:31 AM
The Fey recording I heard was terrible. All the bad Harnonvourt habits (crazy sforzandi, snappy brass and wild wild stuff) and none of the good ones, such as lyricism.

Quote from: nut-job on March 31, 2009, 11:06:42 AM
I don't consider those "habits" bad. I think I have Fey conducting a disc with Mozart Concerti, which I vaguely remember as superb.

Most people like those "bad Harnonvourt [sic] habits (crazy sforzandi, snappy brass and wild wild stuff)."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 31, 2009, 04:17:19 PM

Quote from: Bogey on March 31, 2009, 06:02:36 AM
Well, this seems to have been the complete set that most here enjoyed:

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2002/jun02/Haydn_complete_Fischer_Brilliant.jpg)
$120 for 33 cds

Bill - this was my vote because I just received the 'Complete Set' - I paid $85 on the Amazon Marketplace (but just checked and cannot find the same deal, unfortunately) - at that price for 33 discs, a no-brainer for me (already owned a bunch of Fischer's recordings of these works and enjoyed them); but, how many complete sets of these works must one own? I still have a bunch of others, esp. the London Symphonies and will start to 'cull them out' in the next few weeks; now of course that still raises the issue of a desire for a more HIP set - too DAMN much to decide w/ Haydn - I guess my suggestion for those getting started is to listen to some Fischer & Goodman (own a bunch of those discs); if a complete set is desired, then look for a great Fischer BARGAIN! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bulldog on March 31, 2009, 04:29:43 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on March 31, 2009, 04:17:19 PM
Bill - this was my vote because I just received the 'Complete Set' - I paid $85 on the Amazon Marketplace (but just checked and cannot find the same deal, unfortunately) - at that price for 33 discs, a no-brainer for me (already owned a bunch of Fischer's recordings of these works and enjoyed them); but, how many complete sets of these works must one own?

For this "must" question, a reasonable response would be "none". :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on April 01, 2009, 10:08:18 PM

Merged the threads.

For those interested the results of MnDave's poll on which complete set, with only 10 votes casted...

Dorati: 2 votes, Fischer: 4 votes, and another 4 votes for that mysterious and imaginative "other set". 8)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on April 02, 2009, 12:16:27 AM

Quote from: Bunny on March 31, 2009, 03:37:56 PM

Most people like those "bad Harnonvourt [sic] habits (crazy sforzandi, snappy brass and wild wild stuff)."

Often I like Harnoncourt, too. I love his Haydn recordings. I'm just not so hot about his disciples copying some of his mannerisms.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on April 02, 2009, 07:35:52 AM

I'm waiting for my Fischer set to arrive ...... I found it for 52 euros, which is only marginally more expensive than Dorati (45 euros). I'll post when I get it. I'm already well-covered for the London and Paris sets ..... for me Kuijken is terrific here, with Harnoncourt in second place. Also have Bernstein, Marriner, Szell, Mackerras. Pinnock and Solomons are great for the Sturm & Drang. I'm counting on Fischer for the early and middle period.

I'll post again when I've heard some of the Fischer set.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on April 10, 2009, 06:22:25 AM

I received my big box of Haydn symphonies by Fischer and the A-H orchestra, so I 'm posting a few comments.

I bought the Dorati set when it first came out on LP, but it's now up in the attic and I haven't listened to it for many years (broken turntable). I always kept fond memories of it but since those days HIP has arrived and I now generally prefer a leaner, more transparent sound. For the London and Paris symphonies I have Kuijken and Harnoncourt and I find these really excellent (especially Kuijken). But I never filled the gap for the middle and early symphonies, so I was hesitating between the Fischer and Dorati box set re-issues. I eventually went for Fischer when I found it for 52 Euros on Amazon.

In general I am very happy with my purchase. I like the sound of the orchestra .... the strings are great, the bass line incisive and clear, I love the wind section and although the brass is a little less brilliant than I hoped it is nevertheless quite audible. Overall, an excellent, clean and vibrant sound, perfect for Haydn. The other thing I really appreciate is the absence of a continuo, even for the earlier symphonies.

The recordings are excellent too ..... bright and detailed except for the London's which are not so good (both the sound and the interpretations), but I have Kuijken and Harnoncourt for them. The "London" sound is not a disaster .... just that you feel like you are sitting at the back of the hall rather in prime position as you do for the other recordings.

Now, the most important point .... the interpretations. Putting aside the London's (which lack a certain elan and spirit compared to Kuijken and Harnoncourt, and indeed Fischer himself in the other symphonies), I am pretty happy. I bought this set for the middle and early symphonies, and for this I'm generally not disappointed. Fischer usually selects a pleasing tempo that is lively but not too fast to blur the detail. I'm also enjoying the minuets more the way that Fischer plays them (compared to Dorati) ..... bouncing, sprightly and full of life (and such variety !)

So, I've re-established contact with several of my old favourites .... 60, 77, 78, 80, ....etc. It's been many years since I heard these works and they really are magnificent. Not so well known, but what music !! And Fischer and his players bring them to life quite thrillingly.

However, despite the praise above, the set is not perfect (IMHO) and I have a few niggles.

First, there are occasional passages which are played by solo strings only (usually solo violin or cello). Haydn did not write the music this way and they are an invention of Fischer's. I don't like them. Fortunately there don't seem to be too many, but they do seem to me to be gimmicky and artificial. Symphony 48 (Maria Theresa) is a good example.

Second, sometimes Fischer seems to get a rush of blood and goes much faster than the music can bear. Above a certain point, speed tends to destroy expression ..... things are going so fast that there is no time to point up accents or shape the music. This tends to ruin (or at least distort) what Haydn wrote and does not seem to me to be in the idiom of the music. It sounds breathless, rather than spirited and natural. For example, the amazing first mvmt of No. 39 is far too fast .... under Solomons and Pinnock it is much more violent and angry because it is played slower with time for the accents and rhythms (and silences!) to really bite. The end of the slow movement of No 78 is another annoying example. At the end of the andante, the music unexpectedly switches to a "poco allegro" with a brand new tune. Fischer plays it joyfully and almost "presto" which makes a huge contrast with preceeding andante. Dorati plays it at the proper tempo, and gently, and it fits in perfectly as a bittersweet little conclusion to a magnificent andante. I remember Robbins-Landon's notes saying that it was "Kerhaus" music, which means "go home". A little piece played at the end of a concert to say "it's time to go" and send people home smiling.

However, I should say that the above transgressions are the exception rather than the rule. The new discoveries and pleasures that I get from Fischer's performances far outweigh the disappointments, and in general Fischer is more lively and alert than Dorati. Nevertheless, I have a feeling that I will not be able to stop myself buying the Dorati re-issue when it finally appears. It contains quite a few old friends ......

Someone on the thread asked for a recommendation between Fischer and Dorati for a complete box-set of Haydn symphonies. I would reply that I have good and bad news for you. Both sets are good, but neither are perfect !! In fact their strengths and weaknesses tend to overlap ... Dorati's London symphonies are better than Fischer's, and Fischer is stronger in the earlier and middle symphonies. Neither of them are my top recommendation for the later symphonies where Kuijken is outstanding with Harnoncourt close behind. I'm a HIP fan, so Davis and Jochum are at a disadvantage ....

I would close by saying that for around 100 euros you can have BOTH Fischer and Dorati and then you are in heaven! This is the price that the Fischer and Dorati sets used to sell for individually a few years ago, so it's an amazing bargain.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gabriel on April 10, 2009, 02:24:20 PM

Alkan, thanks for your very lucid review of the Fischer set. The acoustic problem of the London symphonies is totally true; if I'm not mistaken those were recorded by Nimbus, a label where that kind of ambiguous sound was found in other recordings. But in general it is a splendid cycle.

Quote from: alkan on April 10, 2009, 06:22:25 AM
I would close by saying that for around 100 euros you can have BOTH Fischer and Dorati and then you are in heaven! This is the price that the Fischer and Dorati sets used to sell for individually a few years ago, so it's an amazing bargain.

I agree with this statement. There are perspectives in the Dorati set that are unforgettable (just one example: the minuet of symphony n. 70, one of my favorites: Fischer doesn't hit the nail of the question-answer sequence so well established by Dorati). Exploring these symphonies is one of the greatest musical adventures any music lover can experience in his/her life; having two excellent points of view cannot but enhance that adventure.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on April 11, 2009, 12:23:53 PM

The weirdest and most unexpected thing happened today, and it was one of the best things in record collecting in quite a while for me. :)

I have the whole Haydn string quartet cycle by the Festetics Quartet, except for the volume with op. 33 &42 - never ever found a trace of it, no matter what I did. :o As if it had never existed. Before recording for Arcana the Festetics did just those opus numbers foe an issue on Harmonia Mundi. And it was that I was looking for on Amazon when if found..

TA-THA: (drumroll...)

(http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedia/images_produits/ZoomPE/7/0/0/8033891690007.jpg)

Scheduled for release on the 7th of Mai. I placed a pre-order. ;D ;D Listed on Amazon.fr as op.33 1-6, also on Fnac, but the picture tells that it is indeed op. 33 & 42. Does this mean that ARCANA is now resurrected by new owners? :o Or maybe the heirs of Michel Bernstein have decided to continue? Either would be splendid news.

Another incomplete to be struck from my list! :D Somehow in the end these hopeless cases seem always to resolves themselves.. 8)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: bhodges on April 11, 2009, 12:28:07 PM

Que, as an aside, I did a double-take, seeing Istvan Kertész on the cover. Is that the conductor?

--Bruce

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on April 11, 2009, 12:43:52 PM

Quote from: bhodges on April 11, 2009, 12:28:07 PM
Que, as an aside, I did a double-take, seeing Istvan Kertész on the cover. Is that the conductor?

--Bruce

Nope, same name different person. This Istvan is still very much alive.

A short bio:
Istvan Kertesz, first violin, was born in 1945 outside of Budapest. He studied violin with Denes Kovacs and subsequently with Ingrid Seifert and Sigiswald Kuijken. Between 1969 and 1984, Mr. Kertesz was the concertmaster of the Hungarian National Philharmonic. As a soloist and concertmaster of several chamber orchestras, he has performed in most European countries.

Mr. Kertesz's specialization on the period violin dates to 1981. In 1985, together with his colleagues, he founded the Festetics Quartet. He has made many recordings for several labels: Accord, EMI-Electrola, Hungaraton, Novalis, and Quintana-Harmonia Mundi. Mr. Kertesz is professor of violin at the Franz Liszt Music Academy in Budapest.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: rubio on April 11, 2009, 01:13:55 PM

Quote from: Que on April 11, 2009, 12:23:53 PM
(http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedia/images_produits/ZoomPE/7/0/0/8033891690007.jpg)

Q

This is the best news concerning CD's for many months for me! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 11, 2009, 02:46:21 PM

Quote from: Que on April 11, 2009, 12:23:53 PM
The weirdest and most unexpected thing happened today, and it was one of the best things in record collecting in quite a while for me. :)

I have the whole Haydn string quartet cycle by the Festetics Quartet, except for the volume with op. 33 &42 - never ever found a trace of it, no matter what I did. :o As if it had never existed. Before recording for Arcana the Festetics did just those opus numbers foe an issue on Harmonia Mundi. And it was that I was looking for on Amazon when if found..

TA-THA: (drumroll...)

(http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedia/images_produits/ZoomPE/7/0/0/8033891690007.jpg)

Scheduled for release on the 7th of Mai. I placed a pre-order. ;D ;D Listed on Amazon.fr as op.33 1-6, also on Fnac, but the picture tells that it is indeed op. 33 & 42. Does this mean that ARCANA is now resurrected by new owners? :o Or maybe the heirs of Michel Bernstein have decided to continue? Either would be splendid news.

Another incomplete to be struck from my list! :D Somehow in the end these hopeless cases seem always to resolves themselves.. 8)

Q

Congratulations, Que. I know, sometimes these things can become a true obsession. And it's so pleasant the find! ;D

Some information: The rights and brand of the Arcana label were purchased by the Italian company "551 Media" (its owner is Mauro Primon) in a judicial auction. The first project of the purchaser has been to complete the cycle of Haydn's strings quartets (9 volumes and 19 CDs), with the publication of the CDs devoted to the op. 33 & 42. BTW, this is also very strange to me because several times in the past I saw the complete package offered on the web. Anyway, it seems the project includes the entire re-edition of the cycle and other old recordings: http://www.arcana.eu/ :o

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on April 11, 2009, 03:00:22 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 11, 2009, 02:46:21 PM
Congratulations, Que. I know, sometimes these things can become a true obsession. And it's so pleasant the find! ;D

Some information: The rights and brand of the Arcana label were purchased by the Italian company "551 Media" (his owner is Mauro Primon) in a judicial auction. The first project of the purchaser has been to complete the cycle of Haydn's strings quartets (9 volumes and 19 CDs), with the publication of the CDs devoted to the op. 33 & 42. BTW, this is also very strange to me because several times in the past I saw the complete package offered on the web. Anyway, it seems the project includes the entire re-edition of the cycle and other old recordings: http://www.arcana.eu/ :o

Thanks for all the info! :)
NO wonder that I could never find it.

So now the whole series is reissued.
Gurn, you probably will have to rob a bank because you need this! 8)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2009, 03:23:59 PM

Quote from: Que on April 11, 2009, 03:00:22 PM
Thanks for all the info! :)
NO wonder that I could never find it.

So now the whole series is reissued.
Gurn, you probably will have to rob a bank because you need this! 8)

Q

Odd timing, eh Q? Since we have been discussing exactly this scenario. :)

Yes, I would imagine that the entire reissue box will cost an arm and BOTH legs :o Well, that's OK, it's only $$$ 0:)

Thanks for the info, Antoine.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 11, 2009, 03:43:44 PM

Haydn is sometimes a hard task. It was so difficult and expensive to complete the ten volumes of the symphonies by Hogwood and Co. and now this.

I was calm with my Mosaïques (all of them), Kuijkens (4 CDs), Amadeus (10 CDs) and some other... But the Festetics really looks irresistible. Depending of the prices probably a loan from the bank will be the only solution :D.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2009, 05:03:58 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 11, 2009, 03:43:44 PM
Haydn is sometimes a hard task. It was so difficult and expensive to complete the ten volumes of the symphonies by Hogwood and Co. and now this.

I was calm with my Mosaïques (all of them), Kuijkens (4 CDs), Amadeus (10 CDs) and some other... But the Festetics really looks irresistible. Depending of the prices probably a loan from the bank will be the only solution :D.

And I have still to acquire the string trios set (6 disks). They have been more than full price ($22 ea inc. postage), so <>$130 for 6 disks! :o I have the Festetics Op 33 & 42 on Harmonia Mundi, as well as the Op 77 & 103, but none of the others that are on ARCANA. Not sure if they are the same recordings or different ones. :-\ The Hogwood symphonies have been right out of sight too, no one is giving them for a reasonable price. :(

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Boccherini: Quartets - Consortium Classicum - Quartet for clarinet, flute, horn & bassoon in F major, G. 262/2 (arranged by Othon Van den Broek): No. 1, Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on April 11, 2009, 11:18:46 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2009, 03:23:59 PM
Odd timing, eh Q? Since we have been discussing exactly this scenario. :)

Gurn, it's clear we have psychic capabilities. 8)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2009, 05:03:58 PM
I have the Festetics Op 33 & 42 on Harmonia Mundi, as well as the Op 77 & 103, but none of the others that are on ARCANA. Not sure if they are the same recordings or different ones. :-\

Different ones, I believe. Op. 77 & 103 were recorded in 1996 and 1997 in Budapest.

Anyway, the ressurection of Arcana is indeed good news!
And it seems we get the old issues as they were: same artwork :) and same pricetag :-\.... (Though I ordered my op. 33 & 42 from Caiman for just over €17 incl. p&p)

BTW which recordings of the string trios are there? Any HIP about?

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 27, 2009, 04:49:11 AM

Yesterday I was listening to The London Haydn Quartet on Hyperion (2 Cds). An excellent recording of the Op. 9, although Mr. Hurwitz -on Classicstoday- has a very different opinion:

3/8
"It was exciting seeing this new recording of Haydn's Op. 9, the works that the composer felt inaugurated his mature string quartet production, and that have been largely neglected on disc in favor of the Op. 20 set (which represent the first flowing of the fully mature classical style). The London Haydn Quartet specializes in this repertoire and so had a golden opportunity to establish its authority in music that has not been over-recorded to the point of silliness. Beginning the set with Quartet No. 4 in D minor, widely regarded as Haydn's first masterpiece in the medium, offered them the chance to open by putting their best foot forward, while the use of period instruments should have energized music often smoothed over to the point of dullness.

"Unfortunately, the result here is little short of disastrous. This has to be some of the ugliest quartet playing masquerading under the rubric of "authenticity" that you will ever hear. Those elaborate solo parts for Haydn's celebrated concertmaster, Luigi Tomasini, such as we find in the Cantabile largo of No. 5, or the Adagio of No. 1, sound unforgivably thin and emotionally neutered in the hands of principal violin Catherine Manson. I suppose we have to resign ourselves to the current, historically false fad that calls for the near total avoidance of vibrato, but there's no excuse for a basic timbre that sounds like a cross between a perpetual "sul ponticello" and, above the staff, harmonics. Not that the other players are any better; their parts are simply more tolerable because they are lower in pitch.

"Hideous timbre is in any case the least of this group's problems. Just listen to the opening movement of the D minor quartet. Yes, the tempo is marked moderato, but that does not mean "trudge". Nor does it mean "play everything legato, with no rhythmic definition whatsoever". Phrases trail off into nothingness, and Haydn's expressive lines degenerate into an inarticulate mess. The opening movement of Quartet No. 12, at nearly 13 minutes, becomes all but interminable, particularly as the very close engineering captures not just every inexpressive, ugly sound, but plenty of sniffling and ambient noise as well. And all this supposedly from Haydn quartet specialists!

"Happily you can get a fine set of Op. 9 on Brilliant Classics for about 10 dollars featuring the Buchberger Quartet, and if you want period instruments, the Festetics Quartet on Hungaroton makes these folks sound even more clueless than they do when taken in isolation. Please, Hyperion, don't even dream of making this a series".

Here an example:

http://www.divshare.com/flash/playlist?myId=7218363-0da

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: FideLeo on April 27, 2009, 09:05:20 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 27, 2009, 04:49:11 AM
Yesterday I was listening to The London Haydn Quartet on Hyperion (2 Cds). An excellent recording of the Op. 9, although Mr. Hurwitz -on Classicstoday- has a very different opinion:

Good to learn about more period recordings of these quartets. Usually low points from Hurwitz only make me feel more curious about the recording. Quatuor Mosaiques hasn't recorded any new Haydn for some time - I hope that they continue!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bulldog on April 27, 2009, 11:44:33 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 27, 2009, 04:49:11 AM
Yesterday I was listening to The London Haydn Quartet on Hyperion (2 Cds). An excellent recording of the Op. 9, although Mr. Hurwitz -on Classicstoday- has a very different opinion:

3/8
"It was exciting seeing this new recording of Haydn's Op. 9, the works that the composer felt inaugurated his mature string quartet production, and that have been largely neglected on disc in favor of the Op. 20 set (which represent the first flowing of the fully mature classical style). The London Haydn Quartet specializes in this repertoire and so had a golden opportunity to establish its authority in music that has not been over-recorded to the point of silliness. Beginning the set with Quartet No. 4 in D minor, widely regarded as Haydn's first masterpiece in the medium, offered them the chance to open by putting their best foot forward, while the use of period instruments should have energized music often smoothed over to the point of dullness.

"Unfortunately, the result here is little short of disastrous. This has to be some of the ugliest quartet playing masquerading under the rubric of "authenticity" that you will ever hear. Those elaborate solo parts for Haydn's celebrated concertmaster, Luigi Tomasini, such as we find in the Cantabile largo of No. 5, or the Adagio of No. 1, sound unforgivably thin and emotionally neutered in the hands of principal violin Catherine Manson. I suppose we have to resign ourselves to the current, historically false fad that calls for the near total avoidance of vibrato, but there's no excuse for a basic timbre that sounds like a cross between a perpetual "sul ponticello" and, above the staff, harmonics. Not that the other players are any better; their parts are simply more tolerable because they are lower in pitch.

"Hideous timbre is in any case the least of this group's problems. Just listen to the opening movement of the D minor quartet. Yes, the tempo is marked moderato, but that does not mean "trudge". Nor does it mean "play everything legato, with no rhythmic definition whatsoever". Phrases trail off into nothingness, and Haydn's expressive lines degenerate into an inarticulate mess. The opening movement of Quartet No. 12, at nearly 13 minutes, becomes all but interminable, particularly as the very close engineering captures not just every inexpressive, ugly sound, but plenty of sniffling and ambient noise as well. And all this supposedly from Haydn quartet specialists!

"Happily you can get a fine set of Op. 9 on Brilliant Classics for about 10 dollars featuring the Buchberger Quartet, and if you want period instruments, the Festetics Quartet on Hungaroton makes these folks sound even more clueless than they do when taken in isolation. Please, Hyperion, don't even dream of making this a series".

Here an example:

http://www.divshare.com/flash/playlist?myId=7218363-0da

I also like the London Haydn Quartet's performances, although I can see how some folks would find them too relaxed. Hurwitz has a major problem with a lack of vibrato, so I wouldn't put much value on his comments. Fanfare Magazine praised the recording; MusicWeb had mixed feelings.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Valentino on April 27, 2009, 11:39:50 PM

The Hurwitzer always makes me grin.

Just received the Hagen Quartett op. 20 set. This is exiting. After a short listen to no. 4 I think it is fair to call this a set to treasure. Modernism suits this music just fine.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on May 04, 2009, 04:00:28 AM

Fey's Haydn symphony cycle seems to be getting good reviews.

Has anyone heard any of these performances? If so, how would you characterize them?
Do you prefer them to (say) Fischer's cycle on Brilliant, or Dorati, or Harnoncourt, or other interpreters ?

Thanks for any comments

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on May 04, 2009, 05:30:16 AM

Some people really like Fey's take on Haydn. Personally I think it's terrible.

It's a charicature of Harnoncourt: big "astonishing" sforzandi (as if there's such a thing as suprises in a recorded medium), dominant motoric drive, fast tempi. Harnoncourt also brings out the lyricism in Haydn, but Fey does not have the inherent musicality to do this. His slow mvt in symphony nr 88, for instance, a beautiful piece, is a real let down. I seem to recall our friend M (forever) talking about "sledgehammer" approach, and I would agree.

However, as I said, if you like the foot tapping fast Haydn, maybe Fey is to your taste.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bunny on May 04, 2009, 07:22:13 AM

Quote from: alkan on May 04, 2009, 04:00:28 AM
Fey's Haydn symphony cycle seems to be getting good reviews.

Has anyone heard any of these performances? If so, how would you characterize them?
Do you prefer them to (say) Fischer's cycle on Brilliant, or Dorati, or Harnoncourt, or other interpreters ?

Thanks for any comments

Check out these reviews at ClassicsToday (http://www.classicstoday.com/digest/pdigest.asp?perfidx=3544). I like Fey's Haydn very much, and apparently, so does David Hurwitz. The only volume he is less than enthusiastic about is Vol. 6 (Nos. 49, 52,58) and even then he still gives it and 8/9. For my taste, Fey's Haydn has a very sly sense of humor, as well as being "edgy" and unconventional. It's not your papa's Haydn.

However, many people don't like being taken out of their comfort zone, especially with warhorses like Haydn's symphonies. They will find Fey's eccentricities (and Fey does have eccentricities) disconcerting to say the least. For them, there is still plenty to choose from.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on May 05, 2009, 04:47:58 AM

Quote from: Que on April 11, 2009, 11:18:46 PM
BTW which recordings of the string trios are there? Any HIP about?

Meanwhile a new release that must be sheer bliss for Haydn completists! :o
(click picture)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/5028421937694.jpg) (http://www.brilliantclassics.com/release.aspx?id=FM02095921)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 05, 2009, 05:32:06 AM

[Quote from: Que on April 12, 2009, 02:18:46 AM]
BTW which recordings of the string trios are there? Any HIP about?
[/quote]

String trio recordings are thin on the ground. There is the excellent (although on modern instruments) 6 disks-so-far by the Vienna Philharmonia Trio:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wN4HVA60L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Despite the modern instruments, I would get this anyway if it comes out in a box set down the road. Or unless something else comes along to top it.

Then I have a single disk that IS on period instruments, it is by Camerata Berolinensis, and although it claims to be "Volume I", it came out in 2004 and I have been awaiting a "Volume II" ever since :-\

(http://cdbaby.name/b/e/berolinensis2.jpg)

maybe they've been secretly working on the balance of it for Brilliant and it will be the surprise inclusion of Volume II of the Complete Haydn.... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Harry on May 05, 2009, 05:34:04 AM

Quote from: Que on May 05, 2009, 04:47:58 AM

Meanwhile a new release that must be sheer bliss for Haydn completists! :o
(click picture)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/5028421937694.jpg) (http://www.brilliantclassics.com/release.aspx?id=FM02095921)

Q

Wow, somehow I missed this one......

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on May 05, 2009, 05:42:00 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 05, 2009, 05:32:06 AM
Then I have a single disk that IS on period instruments, it is by Camerata Berolinensis, and although it claims to be "Volume I", it came out in 2004 and I have been awaiting a "Volume II" ever since :-\

(http://cdbaby.name/b/e/berolinensis2.jpg)

As ever, I'm much obliged! :)

And after some surfing I can confirm the existence of volume II, issued in Feb. 2007:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4020796418960.jpg)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 05, 2009, 05:44:08 AM

Quote from: Que on May 05, 2009, 05:42:00 AM
As ever, I'm much obliged! :)

And after some surfing I can confirm the existence of volume II, issued in Feb. 2007:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4020796418960.jpg)

Q

Yep. I just found it too, and was coming back to let you know. Although the release date over here is November 2008, so, not so long ago. I am going to pull the trigger on this one, too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on May 05, 2009, 05:47:53 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 05, 2009, 05:44:08 AM
Yep. I just found it too, and was coming back to let you know. Although the release date over here is November 2008, so, not so long ago. I am going to pull the trigger on this one, too. :)

8)

Well, at this tempo I hope they'll finish the series before my retirement.... ::) ;D

How many discs would Haydn's string trios fill?

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 05, 2009, 06:22:07 AM

Quote from: Que on May 05, 2009, 05:47:53 AM
Well, at this tempo I hope they'll finish the series before my retirement.... ::) ;D

How many discs would Haydn's string trios fill?

Q

That other set has 6. There are 23 or 24 of them, and these have 5 each so far, so I figured 5 disks. It might be that there are a bunch of little fragments and such, like with the Beaux Arts Piano Trios disks. That added at least 1 disk to the series.... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: not edward on May 05, 2009, 07:34:27 AM

Haydn's currently the number one on my list of composers to revisit, but outside of the string quartets I've thus far been a little hampered by the fact that, for me, Haydn's music absolutely requires good performances to make an impact. (Other composers with more gestural language and more surface allure I find a little more resistant to merely average performances.)

I have the original Fischer recordings of the last twelve symphonies and I've just never been able to get into them. I am guessing the performances are the problem for me--any suggestions? (I don't particularly care whether HIP or no, though I often find older readings of music from this period a bit stodgy and heavyweight.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on May 05, 2009, 08:09:33 AM

Quote from: edward on May 05, 2009, 07:34:27 AM
I have the original Fischer recordings of the last twelve symphonies and I've just never been able to get into them. I am guessing the performances are the problem for me--any suggestions? (I don't particularly care whether HIP or no, though I often find older readings of music from this period a bit stodgy and heavyweight.)

Nikolaus Harnoncourt (Warner & DHM) & Bruno Weil (Sony), also Sigiswald Kuijken (Virgin & DHM) (all HIP)

Plenty of suggestions here: Haydn's Symphonies (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11942.0.html)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on May 05, 2009, 08:46:40 AM

Quote from: edward on May 05, 2009, 07:34:27 AM

I have the original Fischer recordings of the last twelve symphonies and I've just never been able to get into them. I am guessing the performances are the problem for me--any suggestions? (I don't particularly care whether HIP or no, though I often find older readings of music from this period a bit stodgy and heavyweight.)

They were the earliest recordings of the cycle and I think it is generally considered that they are the least successful, I seem to remember Fischer himself admitting something like that in a Gramophone interview.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on May 05, 2009, 03:34:28 PM

Quote from: edward on May 05, 2009, 07:34:27 AM
last twelve symphonies [...] any suggestions? (I don't particularly care whether HIP or no, though I often find older readings of music from this period a bit stodgy and heavyweight.)

I'd definitely recommend Brueggen in that case. HIP, but not aggressive HIP like Fey. The playing is excellent. These are live recordings without applause. Available on two Philips Duos (also released as ArkivCDs) or in a box with the Paris and Sturm und Drang symphonies. There's also a budget CD available of 94, 96 and 101.

Edit: Arkivmusic offers the Brueggen set as a single box and also offers both volumes of the Philips Duos issues.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on May 06, 2009, 07:31:06 AM

Quote from: Bunny on May 04, 2009, 07:22:13 AM
Check out these reviews at ClassicsToday (http://www.classicstoday.com/digest/pdigest.asp?perfidx=3544). I like Fey's Haydn very much, and apparently, so does David Hurwitz. The only volume he is less than enthusiastic about is Vol. 6 (Nos. 49, 52,58) and even then he still gives it and 8/9. For my taste, Fey's Haydn has a very sly sense of humor, as well as being "edgy" and unconventional. It's not your papa's Haydn.

However, many people don't like being taken out of their comfort zone, especially with warhorses like Haydn's symphonies. They will find Fey's eccentricities (and Fey does have eccentricities) disconcerting to say the least. For them, there is still plenty to choose from.

That makes it sound as though I'm an old fuddy duddy for not liking Fey's Haydn. No.

The Fey I've heard is brutal and agressive and brash. If there is a sense of humour, it's puerile slapstick.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on May 06, 2009, 09:25:38 AM

Quote from: Bunny on May 04, 2009, 07:22:13 AM
However, many people don't like being taken out of their comfort zone, especially with warhorses like Haydn's symphonies.

It's a little (what shall I say?) counter-realistic to call Haydn's symphonies "warhorses". I have been going to concerts for thirty years now, and if I have heard three Haydn symphonies it's much.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Undutchable on May 07, 2009, 10:23:29 AM

(http://www.loiseaulyre.com/images/releases/43008228.jpg)

Anybody have the Hogwood/AAM boxes? I managed to get Vols 1 &2 on the cheap and found them quite good, very much in the HIP mould using minimal forces.
----------------
Listening to: Brahms, Johannes - 4. Adagio - Piu Andante - Allegro Non Troppo, Ma Con Brio (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/brahms%2c+johannes/track/4.+adagio+-+piu+andante+-+allegro+non+troppo%2c+ma+con+brio)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on May 07, 2009, 10:45:28 AM

The Hogwood recordings are second to none IMO - one the finest HIP cycles that I have so far heard, and its limited availability becomes more ridiculous as time passes. Nice and rugged but also with fine vitality compared to the more elegant Kuijken, metronomic/taut Pinnock, flowing Solomons, haphazard (but exciting) Goodman and the... bizarre Brüggen. Let's hope that it is reissued in a big box at some point, as the Brüggen recordings have been.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Joe Barron on May 08, 2009, 02:05:17 PM

Bernstein's recordings of the Paris and London Symphonies with the NYPO, along with a few Masses and the Creation, is being released by Sony as a bargain set. (http://www.amazon.com/Leonard-Bernstein-Conducts-Haydn-Box/dp/B001TKK39S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1241819780&sr=1-1) I first heard the Paris symphonies in this recording, and I have never found anything better. I still treasure my three-LP box set, or will until the new CDs arrive. I also have some of Lenny's London Symphonies (Nos. 93-94 and 102), and it will be a pleasure to own all twelve. He understands this music well, I think, and his brisk, straightforward, rhythmically focused readings are beautifully suited to Haydn's style of composition.

Twelve disks for twenty-five dollars is a steal, and it's only a matter of time before Sony realizes it and either takes it off the market (as they did with the Stravinsky set), or qudruples the price. (The same set at Amazon.uk is about a hundred dollars.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 08, 2009, 04:27:42 PM

Quote from: Joe Barron on May 08, 2009, 02:05:17 PM
Bernstein's recordings of the Paris and London Symphonies with the NYPO, along with a few Masses and the Creation, is being released by Sony as a bargain set. (http://www.amazon.com/Leonard-Bernstein-Conducts-Haydn-Box/dp/B001TKK39S/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1241819780&sr=1-1) I first heard the Paris symphonies in this recording, and I have never found anything better. I still treasure my three-LP box set, or will until the new CDs arrive. I also have some of Lenny's London Symphonies (Nos. 93-94 and 102), and it will be a pleasure to own all twelve. He understands this music well, I think, and his brisk, straightforward, rhythmically focused readings are beautifully suited to Haydn's style of composition.

Twelve disks for twenty-five dollars is a steal, and it's only a matter of time before Sony realizes it and either takes it off the market (as they did with the Stravinsky set), or qudruples the price. (The same set at Amazon.uk is about a hundred dollars.)

Thanks for pointing that out, Joe. I only have 1 Haydn/Bernstein, but it is my single favorite Haydn symphonies disk. That would be the Wiener Philharmoniker playing #88 & 92 on DG. If I may say so, given my tastes especially in Haydn, it was a great surprise to me to be able to say that. But these are 2 excellent performances, not only by one of the world's great orchestras, but also by a conductor not known for putting the best face on pre-Romantic music. That said, I owe Bernstein the huge debt of being the man who turned me on to classical music (I saw the Young People's Concerts at their original TV airings!), so I can forgive him a lot. In this case, I don't have to, he's brilliant! :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Quatuor Mosaiques - K 499 String Quartet #20 in D 1st mvmt - Allegretto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 08, 2009, 06:01:57 PM

Thanks, Joe & Gurn for the comments on Bernstein - looks like a great bargain! :)

Just wonderning what size 'band' in uses from the NY Philharmonic in these performances - I'm starting to really enjoy even the later Haynd in much smaller orchestras (e.g. about 3 dozen instruments) - any comments on why Bernstein may be a good choice here, particularly if he uses a larger orchestra? Thanks - Dave

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 08, 2009, 07:06:45 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on May 08, 2009, 06:01:57 PM
Thanks, Joe & Gurn for the comments on Bernstein - looks like a great bargain! :)

Just wondering what size 'band' in uses from the NY Philharmonic in these performances - I'm starting to really enjoy even the later Haydn in much smaller orchestras (e.g. about 3 dozen instruments) - any comments on why Bernstein may be a good choice here, particularly if he uses a larger orchestra? Thanks - Dave

Well, Dave, DG are typically silent on such matters, and they are here, too. I'm going to simply say that of all the "big band" Haydn I've heard (and that's a lot!), the ensemble work here is as good as any and better than most. He may or may not have reduced the forces somewhat, I don't have the discernment to tell. But it doesn't sound like it. In any case, the tempi are the closest I've heard to ideal, especially in #88. BTW, this is long OOP, but I saw a copy for a reasonable price on eBay the other day... ;)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Quatuor Mosaiques - K 589 String Quartet #22 Bb 1st mvmt - Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bunny on May 08, 2009, 07:28:45 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on May 06, 2009, 07:31:06 AM
That makes it sound as though I'm an old fuddy duddy for not liking Fey's Haydn. No.

The Fey I've heard is brutal and agressive and brash. If there is a sense of humour, it's puerile slapstick.

I don't find Fey's Haydn brutal. It is less refined than some other performances, but I would term it more "virile." It's Haydn with balls. I like music with balls. Too often Haydn is made so refined and delicate that it's only fit for Marie Antoinette's boudoir. And if you think the humor is more bathroom than ballroom, that's alright too. 18th century humor was a lot earthier than Victorian humor and the 18th century was a period whose brutality equaled it's refinement.

I like it. period. You don't have to, but please don't stigmatize it as brutal and brash. That is just overstating the matter to a ridiculous degree.

Quote from: Herman on May 06, 2009, 09:25:38 AM
It's a little (what shall I say?) counter-realistic to call Haydn's symphonies "warhorses". I have been going to concerts for thirty years now, and if I have heard three Haydn symphonies it's much.

I don't know where you have been, but Haydn's symphonies are being performed fairly frequently here in NY. In 5 years I've heard Haydn performed 4 or 5 times a season. I haven't heard that much Beethoven in the same time. Audiences love Haydn, and it's very easy to program because the symphonies aren't long. Another thing that I've found is that Haydn is being coupled with works composed in Vienna over the centuries: a Haydn Symphony with a work by Schoenberg, for instance. In fact, since the Mozart anniversary, I've heard more Haydn than ever.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bunny on May 08, 2009, 07:39:30 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 08, 2009, 07:06:45 PM
Well, Dave, DG are typically silent on such matters, and they are here, too. I'm going to simply say that of all the "big band" Haydn I've heard (and that's a lot!), the ensemble work here is as good as any and better than most. He may or may not have reduced the forces somewhat, I don't have the discernment to tell. But it doesn't sound like it. In any case, the tempi are the closest I've heard to ideal, especially in #88. BTW, this is long OOP, but I saw a copy for a reasonable price on eBay the other day... ;)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Quatuor Mosaiques - K 589 String Quartet #22 Bb 1st mvmt - Allegro

Gurn, no need to troll ebay for the 88th! Now that it's Bernstein's 90th birthday year, there are so many box sets out of his work it's not funny. It also includes a lovely DG box which includes the 88th, which is selling for about $10.00 from the Amazon partners as well as a new edition of the single disc with 88, 92 & 94. ;)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5147WM6D9KL._SS500_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41JVKN6ZAJL._SS500_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: FideLeo on May 08, 2009, 08:37:53 PM

Quote from: Undutchable on May 07, 2009, 10:23:29 AM
(http://www.loiseaulyre.com/images/releases/43008228.jpg)

Anybody have the Hogwood/AAM boxes? I managed to get Vols 1 &2 on the cheap and found them quite good, very much in the HIP mould using minimal forces.
----------------
Listening to: Brahms, Johannes - 4. Adagio - Piu Andante - Allegro Non Troppo, Ma Con Brio (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/brahms%2c+johannes/track/4.+adagio+-+piu+andante+-+allegro+non+troppo%2c+ma+con+brio)

I have a few (the later ones in this case, Vol. 7-10) from the series. They are fine in general but I do find them a bit lacking impact sometimes - the absence of drums and trumpets where (in early versions of these symphonies) unavailable might be a sign.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Coopmv on May 09, 2009, 07:05:29 AM

Quote from: Bunny on May 08, 2009, 07:39:30 PM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5147WM6D9KL._SS500_.jpg)

How is the SQ on this set? Was the set recorded with the VPO?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Joe Barron on May 09, 2009, 07:35:52 AM

Quote from: SonicMan on May 08, 2009, 06:01:57 PM
Thanks, Joe & Gurn for the comments on Bernstein - looks like a great bargain! :)

Just wonderning what size 'band' in uses from the NY Philharmonic in these performances - I'm starting to really enjoy even the later Haynd in much smaller orchestras (e.g. about 3 dozen instruments) - any comments on why Bernstein may be a good choice here, particularly if he uses a larger orchestra? Thanks - Dave

The liner notes on my LPs of the Paris symphonies say nothing about a reduction in forces. But this is the New York Philharmonic. It's not going to sound like a chamber orchestra. Still, the feeling is Haydnesque. The tempos are steady, the winds are bright, and there's no vibrato. Bernstein doesn't conduct Haydn like Mahler. I think I'll give the DGG set a pass and wait for the Sony disks, if Amazon ever get them in stock. And if they don't, well, I've still got the LPs, plus the Hanover Band's recording of the Paris Symphonies (HIP at its best) and Eugen Jochum's recording of the London Symphonies and Gardiner's box of Masses. I'm not hurting. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on May 09, 2009, 08:28:02 AM

Quote from: Joe Barron on May 09, 2009, 07:35:52 AM
the Hanover Band's recording of the Paris Symphonies (HIP at its best)

You're one of the few I've encountered online who really like this set - I do, too, despite its eccentricities.

Very interested in the Bernstein now, thanks for pointing it out.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bunny on May 09, 2009, 09:02:54 AM

Quote from: Coopmv on May 09, 2009, 07:05:29 AM
How is the SQ on this set? Was the set recorded with the VPO?

Sorry, but I don't have the set. I was merely trying to point out that the recording that Gurn recommended, which he believed to be OOP is available in this set, and has also been re-released in new edition single.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Joe Barron on May 10, 2009, 11:01:57 AM

Quote from: Lethe on May 09, 2009, 08:28:02 AM
You're one of the few I've encountered online who really like this set - I do, too, despite its eccentricities.
Very interested in the Bernstein now, thanks for pointing it out.

This morning I listened to the No. 82 (one of my favorites) back to back in the Goodman and Bernstein versions. I didn't catch any eccentricities in the Goodman version. The horns are more prominent, the timpani have that flat snap that natural heads seem to have, and there is a harpsichord, which the Philharmonic does without. But it had the same openhearted drive the Bernstein has. I must say, though, the Philharmonic bass players have a funkier drone than their counterparts in the Hanover band.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on May 10, 2009, 01:05:12 PM

If it's about the Haydn symphonies in this DG Bernstein box, you might as well get the single cd. The rest of the box is oratoria.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jwinter on May 11, 2009, 06:20:48 AM

Any idea if the Sony/Columbia Bernsteins were remastered for the new set? I have some of them in older issues, and might consider upgrading if the sound is improved (not that the old sound is particularly bad..)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on May 16, 2009, 07:35:43 PM

I just noticed something interesting on the French language Wikipedia - the symphonies have been categorised in a more detailed way than I commonly see:

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_symphonies_de_Joseph_Haydn

Surely it's not this cut and dry, but is there any merit in describing the "in between" symphonies in these ways?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on May 16, 2009, 08:15:26 PM

I ran into some downloads of Fey's Haydn, so decided to give it another chance. What I am hearing both confirms my previous impressions (that it was relatively charmless and excessively hard-edged), but there are some more worthy qualities than my first impressions allowed me to notice.

I find him to be strong in the "London" symphonies. His 104 was fine, taut, and the steely quality of the orchestra enhanced the advanced structure, giving it clarity and heightening the architecture. Unfortunately I still cannot enjoy him very much in some of the earlier works. I find the first movement of 82 to be almost absurd in its timpani use. I am used to it rather up-front (as in Goodman's recordings), but it almost felt like micro Bruckner at times in the Fey recording. Another problem I have is that the minuets tend to lack much lilting charm, which is one of the few ways to make them feel more than tiresome interludes. The conductor is certainly not a caricature, as he was not quite as over the top as I had expected in the opening of the first and final movements of 39, but once again, the slightly rigid conducting and steely sound of the instruments rob the 39th of some of the strange chamber-like warmth that you can find in the sturm and drang works (and similarly not find in the later "grand" symphonies). This quality further damages 45 for me and makes me positively dislike the performance - what I find to be a very subtle piece of music becomes breathless.

My feeling is that no single aspect of Fey's music making puts me off, but the combination of several do. This combination includes what I feel is his conducting's inflexibility (not simply a tempo thing, but also a slight lack of play in the dynamics), coupled with some rather choppy phrasing - this is further enhanced by the slightly steely sounding orchestra and the balance of the ensemble allowing for less dynamic variance during loud passages. The orchestra is fine when going absolutely quiet, but seems rather on/off only - then to be hit again by the not exactly subtle string section during a louder passage feels a little jarring. All of these combined makes me struggle to find much warmth or flow, much less subtle humour. Positive qualities are in evidence as well, though. For example, Fey is hardly a conductor unwilling to perform an allegro as just that, and I admire his forward momentum and relatively "no nonsense" approach. This momentum also holds up quite well through whole symphonies despite how I feel about sometimes rather choppy chords... The quality of the ensemble is also very fine as is the recorded sound.

Given the objectively good qualities of the performances I can only conclude that Fey is more divisive than most other Haydn conductors and these CDs are very much more a matter of personal taste than other performances. If they are not to a persons taste then there is a chance that they could absolutely dislike them, simply because I feel that Fey goes quite far in what he does. If they are to a persons taste, then they would probably consider the style vital and essential.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on May 17, 2009, 12:54:27 AM

Finally I started exploring these symphonies (Dorati). I do it while travelling to work and back (iPod). I seem to prefer the early/mid symphonies. The amount of these symphonies is staggering! :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on May 17, 2009, 01:14:46 AM

Is there a website where I can hear any Haydn SQ for free? Performance not an issue.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on May 17, 2009, 01:36:17 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on May 17, 2009, 01:14:46 AM
Is there a website where I can hear any Haydn SQ for free? Performance not an issue.

Do you mean all of them or any one? YouTube (as might be expected) has lots. This is one of my favourite ones from his greatest set, in one of my favourite performances:

http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/PCXg8xo31h0 http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/P7nIv1sTqx0 http://www.youtube.com/watch/v/NJyNqWGC9jw

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on May 17, 2009, 01:38:36 AM

Quote from: 71 dB on May 17, 2009, 12:54:27 AM
Finally I started exploring these symphonies (Dorati). I do it while travelling to work and back (iPod). I seem to prefer the early/mid symphonies. The amount of these symphonies is staggering! :P

I hope you enjoy them! There is a deceptive amount of invention in each one which rewards repeated listening. I for some reason did not like the London set at first, either...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on May 17, 2009, 02:09:29 AM

arph!-my computer won't load your stuff.

I've perused the youtube. I thought there might be a Haydn fan's site somewhere. I just can't can't buy the bunch again just for cursory studying.

It's 6am!!! What is everyone doing up on a Sunday morning? ::)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on May 17, 2009, 02:46:57 AM

Ah, lame. The direct links:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCXg8xo31h0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7nIv1sTqx0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJyNqWGC9jw

Answer: I've been awake all night. Thank you so much, insomnia, this is heaven... ::)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gabriel on May 17, 2009, 03:17:34 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on May 17, 2009, 02:09:29 AM
It's 6am!!! What is everyone doing up on a Sunday morning? ::)

Other possible answer is that people from other parts of the world (and thus perhaps in a different time zone) might have been connected.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 17, 2009, 04:32:41 AM

Quote from: Lethe on May 16, 2009, 07:35:43 PM
I just noticed something interesting on the French language Wikipedia - the symphonies have been categorised in a more detailed way than I commonly see:

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_des_symphonies_de_Joseph_Haydn

Surely it's not this cut and dry, but is there any merit in describing the "in between" symphonies in these ways?

Sara,
Not sure to what you are referring, but if it is the "Tost" and "d'Ogny" designations, these were the people affiliated with the Paris orchestra that commissioned the "Paris" and "Chunnel" (don't cha just love that name?) symphonies. This was the same Johann Tost who was an Esterhazy fiddler on his way to Paris, to whom Haydn entrusted the Op 64 string quartets to deliver to a publisher there, and who (it is believed) tried to steal them until he found that they were worth more as Haydn works than any other way. I guess they had a reconciliation. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Berlin Opera Orchestra / Oskar Fried - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 3rd mvmt - Adagio molto e cantabile

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on May 17, 2009, 04:53:50 AM

Thanks :) I also wondered what the "pre-classicism" designation referred to, as they include a lot of quite major and perfectly balanced works under this, plus there is also the rather confident choice of where to cut off the S&D period...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 17, 2009, 05:03:58 AM

Quote from: Lethe on May 17, 2009, 04:53:50 AM
Thanks :) I also wondered what the "pre-classicism" designation referred to, as they include a lot of quite major and perfectly balanced works under this, plus there is also the rather confident choice of where to cut off the S&D period...

Well, I have to resort to guessing what was in the author's mind here. I think he is relying solely on chronology to classify with, which is a course that we in the Classical Corner frown on. :) One can hardly say that all the symphonies from 34 to 59 are Stürm und Drang, can one? Especially when, for example, #53 was composed <>1779 and is scarcely S & D in style or content. But then again, it is such a grey space between "pre-Classical" and "Classical" that any number of arguments that one cares to put forth will be easily countered by the opposition in any case. So, we let him have his way, even though it is based on confusing generalisations. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Berlin Opera Orchestra / Oskar Fried - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 4th mvmt - Presto - Allegro assai / Recitative - Allegro assai

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on May 19, 2009, 08:57:21 AM

You know, Gurn, it's probably time I planned to listen through to all the symphonies . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 19, 2009, 09:40:53 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 19, 2009, 08:57:21 AM
You know, Gurn, it's probably time I planned to listen through to all the symphonies . . . .

Wonderful idea, Karl, and timely too since the 200th anniversary of his passing is upon us (May 31). You know, I think there are still ideas there that remain to be explored by composers, even of today. Just sayin'... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on May 19, 2009, 09:52:54 AM

Maybe it's time I bought my first CD with one of Haydn's work featured in it. Need to get one with Handel's, too, but talking about that would be taking things off topic.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on May 19, 2009, 09:57:57 AM

Great notion, Op67 . . . Gurn, impossible question over to you: if you had only one disc devoted to Haydn's works, what should the works be? ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 19, 2009, 10:03:43 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 19, 2009, 09:57:57 AM
Great notion, Op67 . . . Gurn, impossible question over to you: if you had only one disc devoted to Haydn's works, what should the works be? ;)

No, it's an impossible question for me, too. No single disk can do any sort of justice. However, if you are an orchestral fan, then a disk with 3 London symphonies on it (any 3, all great) would be the way to go. If you like sacred music, then one of the 6 late masses. Vocal: The Creation. Chamber: Op 76 #1-3 or "4 Late Piano Trios". Solo keyboard: there is one with a couple of late sonatas and a brilliant set of variations. Hell, name a genre, Haydn can make you happy. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 19, 2009, 10:05:44 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 19, 2009, 10:03:43 AM
No, it's an impossible question for me, too. No single disk can do any sort of justice. However, if you are an orchestral fan, then a disk with 3 London symphonies on it (any 3, all great) would be the way to go. If you like sacred music, then one of the 6 late masses. Vocal: The Creation. Chamber: Op 76 #1-3 or "4 Late Piano Trios". Solo keyboard: there is one with a couple of late sonatas and a brilliant set of variations. Hell, name a genre, Haydn can make you happy. :)

8)

Wrong answer. I would have expected something to the effect of postponing the reply until the advance of technology would make it possible to have Haydn's opera omnia on a single disc

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on May 19, 2009, 10:17:35 AM

Wouldn't the wonders of FLAC and SACD-sans-the-SA CD do the job? Karl didn't mention audio CD. Make it a data disc. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gabriel on May 19, 2009, 02:13:40 PM

Quote from: Florestan on May 19, 2009, 10:05:44 AM
Wrong answer. I would have expected something to the effect of postponing the reply until the advance of technology would make it possible to have Haydn's opera omnia on a single disc

Great answer. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on May 22, 2009, 09:34:53 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 19, 2009, 09:40:53 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 19, 2009, 08:57:21 AM
You know, Gurn, it's probably time I planned to listen through to all the symphonies . . . .

Wonderful idea, Karl, and timely too since the 200th anniversary of his passing is upon us (May 31). You know, I think there are still ideas there that remain to be explored by composers, even of today. Just sayin'... :D

8)

And here we go! (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9.msg310404.html#msg310404)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Josquin des Prez on May 22, 2009, 05:36:48 PM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 19, 2009, 09:57:57 AM
Great notion, Op67 . . . Gurn, impossible question over to you: if you had only one disc devoted to Haydn's works, what should the works be? ;)

If i can stretch it to two, it will be his Op. 76 as performed by the Tatrai quartet.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 22, 2009, 05:41:44 PM

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on May 22, 2009, 05:36:48 PM
If i can stretch it to two, it will be his Op. 76 as performed by the Tatrai quartet.

Nope, that's cheating. :)

Which will it be? 1, 2 & 3 OR 4, 5, & 6? I would rec the first three. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Boston Baroque / Pearlman - Bach Concerto #5 in D BWV 1050 1st mvmt

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Josquin des Prez on May 22, 2009, 05:44:44 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 22, 2009, 05:41:44 PM
Which will it be? 1, 2 & 3 OR 4, 5, & 6?

I can't pick one. I hate you. :'(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 22, 2009, 05:46:46 PM

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on May 22, 2009, 05:44:44 PM
I can't pick one. I hate you. :'(

That's OK, I've been hated before (married 3 times, you know?). ;D

8)

PS - now you see why I chickened out when it was posed to ME. ;)

----------------
Listening to:
Boston Baroque / Pearlman - Bach Concerto #5 in D BWV 1050 1st mvmt

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Peregrine on May 23, 2009, 01:56:08 PM

Anyone heard the Auryn SQ on Tacet? I'm considering purchasing their Op.33, but would be helpful if anyone has any comments to make.

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/TACET168.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on May 25, 2009, 12:29:07 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 22, 2009, 05:46:46 PM
That's OK, I've been hated before (married 3 times, you know?). ;D

seriously? Wow.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on May 28, 2009, 11:40:23 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 22, 2009, 09:34:53 AM
Quote from: GurnWonderful idea, Karl, and timely too since the 200th anniversary of his passing is upon us (May 31). You know, I think there are still ideas there that remain to be explored by composers, even of today. Just sayin'... :D

And here we go!

I am just plain jiggered at what consistently fine listening all these are making!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 28, 2009, 11:46:09 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 28, 2009, 11:40:23 AM
And here we go! (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9.msg310404.html#msg310404)

I am just plain jiggered at what consistently fine listening all these are making!

0:)

(Honestly, there's not a clinker in the bunch). :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on May 28, 2009, 11:50:36 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 28, 2009, 11:46:09 AM
0:)

(Honestly, there's not a clinker in the bunch). :)

8)

After such a strong start, I don't see how there could be (aught like unto a clinker).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on May 29, 2009, 09:21:04 AM

Three more days and I want to see this thread BUZZING! $:)

Here's my first lob.

Haydn 2009 - Minetti Quartet(t) (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=553)

Quote
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/511ld8bqEJL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
Haydn, String Quartets Opp.64/4, 74/3 & 76/5, Mintetti Quartet(t) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001TD1XPI/goodmusicguide-20)
- Haenssler

I first heard the Minetti Quartet in January 2006 at an Embassy Series recital that honored Mozart's birthday. Afterwards I wrote: "Mozart's Birthday, but a Minetti celebration" and I haven't stopped thinking about them, since. A second recital in Washington assured that their excellence was not a fluke but repeatable, and alongside groups like the Quatuor Ebene, the Jerusalem and Jupiter Quartets, and perhaps soon the Acies Quartet, they are among the finest there are, which is saying much in a field that becomes ever more crowded with ensembles the average quality of which we could not have even imagined a decade or two ago...

Continued at WETA (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=553)

Edit:
good thing no one noticed how I misspelled Haydn. Wow. How mortifying. :-)
(Corpus delicti removed and replaced)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on May 30, 2009, 04:25:24 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on May 29, 2009, 09:21:04 AM
Edit:
good thing no one noticed how I misspelled Haydn. Wow. How mortifying. :-)

I had noticed. Thanks for dropping that superfluous e! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on May 30, 2009, 05:03:26 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 30, 2009, 04:25:24 AM
I had noticed. Thanks for dropping that superfluous e! ;D

I blame it on Haendl!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 30, 2009, 05:13:54 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 30, 2009, 04:25:24 AM
I had noticed. Thanks for dropping that superfluous e! ;D

Yet he was right. Tom Hayden will turn 70 this year. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on May 30, 2009, 01:47:26 PM

Delighted at the do-re-fa-mi which Haydn employs as a cantus firmus against which he writes florid counterpoint in the finale of the Symphony № 13. The movement is on a much more modest scale than Mozart's famously effulgent finale to the K.551; but no disgrace to Papa on this head.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on May 30, 2009, 02:04:35 PM

Having you hang out in this Haus has added greatly to its foundation, Karl. I was trying to recall the Symphony number of the live Haydn you heard some time ago. I believe you and your wife attended the concert in Boston. Was possibly 22 or 24?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on May 30, 2009, 02:16:05 PM

Cheers, Bill! "The Philosopher," № 22, with the two cors anglais.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on May 30, 2009, 02:20:15 PM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 30, 2009, 02:16:05 PM
Cheers, Bill! "The Philosopher," № 22, with the two cors anglais.

I will see if I can fit that into my listening tonight. Thanks!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on May 30, 2009, 02:24:59 PM

I could just possibly make my way to 22 "on plan" (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,9.msg314376.html#msg314376) this evening, too :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Cato on May 31, 2009, 06:19:31 AM

From an AP story:

"In Haydn commemorative year it's _ mostly Mozart

May 31, 2009 10:07:53 AM EDT
By GEORGE JAHN
Mostly Mozart. Hardly Haydn.

Joseph Haydn died 200 years ago Sunday, and Austria has been officially marking the occasion with hundreds of concerts, exhibitions and other events dedicated to the music and memory of one of the country's greatest sons.

There is no doubt that Haydn was a giant. The "Father of the Symphony" was also key in developing genres such as the string quartet, the sonata and the concerto. His oratorios are the gold standard. And he was unusually prolific, leaving behind more than 100 major works and hundreds of shorter pieces.

But Haydn has it hard in a country that also gave birth to Amadeus.

Mozart was a wunderkind, a creator of more than 600 works, whose death at 35 perpetuated his fame. His genius propelled him to superstar status even before the Oscar-winning "Amadeus" in 1984 made his name a household word to even non-music lovers. He loved scatological jokes; he was impertinent, flamboyant, endearingly human.

Haydn himself idolized his younger friend's genius.

"How inimitable are Mozart's works, how profound, how musically intelligent, how extraordinarily sensitive!" he wrote. And Mozart's father, Leopold, cited Haydn as telling him: "Your son is the greatest composer I know."

Haydn is loved by those who know him.

But the majority does not.

So it's tough to drum up Mozart-like enthusiasm for the man who was staidly known as "Papa Haydn;" who died at 77 after an ordered life, most of it in the countryside; whose instrumental works are unjustly considered rigid and mannered by some when compared to Mozart's, and who remains largely unknown to the non-classical world.

"Everything is Mozart here," said Ibrahim Erneten, who peddles concert tickets to tourists thronging the Austrian capital's upscale Graben pedestrian zone abutting the opera house." The tourists don't know about Haydn."

Fellow ticket-hawker Armand Djakova says only "two or three" of his 50 or so daily inquiries are about Haydn. Bewigged and brocaded in Mozart style as he stalked the next customer, Djakova said the others want to either hear Mozart or waltz king Johann Strauss.

Few are more aware of the difficulties of selling Haydn than Franz Patay, an organizer of festivities marking the bicentenary.

"If you show someone a (Haydn) bust they'll think it's Mozart," says Patay, who was also involved in the all-Austrian hoopla surrounding the 250th anniversary of Mozart's birth three years ago. Patay says the Haydn budget of around euro40 million -- around $56 million -- was about a quarter of what was allocated to the Amadeus year.

He says trying to establish who was greater musically is like deciding on "whether green or yellow is the nicer color." But he credits Haydn for "creating formats that are still relevant today, whereas Mozart did not live long enough to have that opportunity."

Under the baton of Adam Fischer, Haydn's oratorio "The Creation" was performed Sunday at the Esterhazy Palace at Eisenstadt, the southeastern Austrian town that was home to the composer for much of his musical life. The audience filling the ornate palace concert hall -- the venue for Haydn's performances -- exploded into prolonged applause for Fischer and soloists Annette Dasch, Christoph Strehl and Thomas Quasthoff.

The Eisenstadt event was part of 21 performances Sunday around the globe of one of the world's greatest classical works.

But there is more to Haydn than the grandeur of "The Creation." The man -- and his music -- also had a warm, humorous side.

His "Farewell Symphony" has instrumental parts ending in sequence -- and was written to reinforce his musicians' complaints that Haydn's patron, Prince Nikolaus Esterhazy, was deaf to their needs for vacation time. Esterhazy got the message at the premiere performance as the musicians left the stage one by one until only Haydn was left standing.

And with Esterhazy occasionally dozing off, Haydn placed an unexpected loud chord in his "Surprise Symphony" that was meant to shake the prince out of his dreams

A lover of wine, Haydn insisted that a part of his yearly salary be paid in it. He worshipped women -- except for his wife, who used to rip up his scores and use the paper as hair curlers. Haydn was a mentor to Mozart, who credited him with teaching him how to write string quartets -- and who freely used elements of the elder composer's music in his works.

And -- despite his relative obscurity now compared at least to Mozart -- he was BIG in his time.

Mozart died impoverished and with his musical legacy unsecured. Haydn, in contrast, dined at the table of Esterhazy -- one of Europe's most powerful princes -- and members of the British royal family bowed to him during his London sojourns.

As Haydn lay dying 200 years ago and Vienna was in the hands of Napoleon's armies, the emperor himself ordered that an honor guard do vigil outside. And his skull was studied after his death in attempts to ascertain the origins of musical genius, with German composer Johannes Brahms placing it on his desk for inspiration while composing.

Little of that fame is now palpable on a casual tour of the Graben shopping district.

The "Mostly Mozart" souvenir shop does brisk business in Mozart bags, Mozart CDs, Mozart marzipan and nougat sweets and Mozart tee-shirts. There are busts Mozart, Strauss and Beethoven -- a German -- and other non-Mozart items.

But no Haydn.

"There's no demand," explained sales associate Marjorie Francisco.

But those who know the man and his music are paying homage, in less obtrusive ways.

Bronx-born Lanny Louis says his CD shop is selling "at least five times as much" Haydn this year, compared to previous years.

"People are starting to realize that there is there is another great Austrian composer outside of Mozart." "

From: http://www.mail.com/Article.aspx?articlepath=APNews\General-Entertainment\20090531\EU-Austria-Hardly-Haydn.xml&cat=entertainment&subcat=&pageid=1 (http://www.mail.com/Article.aspx?articlepath=APNews%5CGeneral-Entertainment%5C20090531%5CEU-Austria-Hardly-Haydn.xml&cat=entertainment&subcat=&pageid=1)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on May 31, 2009, 06:34:10 AM

Quote from: Cato on May 31, 2009, 06:19:31 AM
From an AP story:

"In Haydn commemorative year it's _ mostly Mozart

May 31, 2009 10:07:53 AM EDT
By GEORGE JAHN
Mostly Mozart. Hardly Haydn.

What a mostly moronic article. Haydn isn't at the top of the list of Vienna-bound tourists? No shit. What a revelation. And as far as "Haydn has it hard in a country that was the birthplace (it was not) of Mozart", well, ask any half-way civilized Austrian concert-goer or classical music lover for the "Austrian National Composer" or "most Austrian composer" and you'll get "Haydn" in 9 out of 10 answers. And the (annual, btw.) Haydn Festival this year in Eisenstadt is UN BE LIEVABLE. Every symphony... every mass, every big name in music.

Alas, that would not have made as catchy a story.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on May 31, 2009, 07:16:25 AM

Quote from: Cato on May 31, 2009, 06:19:31 AM
And with Esterhazy occasionally dozing off, Haydn placed an unexpected loud chord in his "Surprise Symphony" that was meant to shake the prince out of his dreams.

Wasn't the symphony premiered in London, to give the Londoners a surprise?

QuoteMozart died impoverished and with his musical legacy unsecured.

Hm, really? Though not as prosperous as Haydn was when he died, Mozart was fairly well-to-do in 1791, wasn't he?

QuoteJohannes Brahms [placed Haydn's skull] on his desk for inspiration while composing.

And, is this true?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 31, 2009, 08:11:29 AM

Quote from: opus67 on May 31, 2009, 07:16:25 AM
Wasn't the symphony premiered in London, to give the Londoners a surprise?

Absolutely. Needs to do his research a little better... :)

QuoteHm, really? Though not as prosperous as Haydn was when he died, Mozart was fairly well-to-do in 1791, wasn't he?

Yes, he was doing OK by then. And he was never "impoverished" as such. How culd he waste so much money if he didn't have it to waste? ;)

QuoteAnd, is this true?

I would be amazed. Never heard it before. Although Brahms was a big fan of Haydn (the man knew his music!) :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
NBC Symphony / Toscanini - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 3rd mvmt - Adagio molto e cantabile - Andante moderato

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on May 31, 2009, 08:55:51 AM

I sound like a parrot whenever I say this, but this time it is perhaps more apt, as one might not expect Wikipedia to have such an article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haydn's_head

No mention of Brahms at all.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on May 31, 2009, 09:07:49 AM

Nice piece on National Public Radio this morning about Papa. Even refers to the "classical period", Gurn. :)

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104731623

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 31, 2009, 09:19:39 AM

Quote from: Bogey on May 31, 2009, 09:07:49 AM
Nice piece on National Public Radio this morning about Papa. Even refers to the "classical period", Gurn. :)

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104731623

Ah, thanks Bill. Short and sweet as obituaries should be"

Joseph Haydn died 200 years ago today. He was, by any measure, a prolific composer. In addition to the five dozen or so string quartets, he wrote hundreds of trios, piano sonatas, oratorios, masses, operas, songs and concertos, as well as more than 100 symphonies.

In Haydn's time, promising talent didn't sign with a music company. Instead, one found a patron — some rich family that would sponsor all musical endeavors. When Haydn left school and St. Stephen's boys choir in Vienna, however, he didn't have many composition skills, his voice had cracked and he wasn't even very attractive. But music historian Robert Greenberg says that didn't stop Haydn.

"What he had going for him at that age was determination, his energy and an amazing personality," Greenberg says. And, if a famous quote is any indication, Haydn was well aware of his own wit, which often found its way into his music. He said, "Since God has given me a cheerful heart, he will forgive me for serving him cheerfully."

Haydn finally found his rich benefactor, and for nearly three decades (1761-1790), he served cheerfully as music master to Prince Nikolaus, who built a lavish palace outside of Vienna in the Hungarian swampland. Here, Greenberg says, away from the general public, Haydn was free to compose and experiment. He created a body of work, and a style — a relaxed, cheerful, but still emotionally intense style — that we generally refer to today as the "classical" style.

After Nikolaus died in September 1790, Haydn was a free man. Soon, he was approached by a London concert manager, who reportedly knocked on the composer's door, saying, "I am Salomon from London, and I have come to fetch you." Haydn ended up making two extended visits to London, composing his final 12 symphonies (called the "London Symphonies") for his adoring English fans.

As soon as my morning 9th is over, it will be "All Haydn, all day" for me! :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Philharmonia Orchestra \ Karajan - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 1st mvmt - Allegro ma non troppo, un poco maestoso

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on May 31, 2009, 09:41:01 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 31, 2009, 08:11:29 AM
Absolutely. Needs to do his research a little better... :)

Yes, he was doing OK by then. And he was never "impoverished" as such. How culd he waste so much money if he didn't have it to waste? ;)

I would be amazed. Never heard it before. Although Brahms was a big fan of Haydn (the man knew his music!) :)

8)

Three strikes! I find the claim about Brahms dubious.

Quote from: Bogey on May 31, 2009, 09:07:49 AM
Nice piece on National Public Radio this morning about Papa. Even refers to the "classical period", Gurn. :)

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104731623

Nice. Thanks, Bill.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on May 31, 2009, 11:49:45 AM

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/haydn_picture.jpg)

My Haydn contribution today:

Haydn 2009 - The String Quartets (Part 1) (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=558)

QuoteWriting for the string quartet forces the composer to focus on the essentials of what makes classical music: "Melody, Rhythm, Harmony, and Counterpoint". (Georg Feder) There is no room to hide, no place to take cover behind the splendor of massive sounds, no opportunity to dazzle with effects. It's the composer laid bare and therefore the string quartet is, rightly, considered the most noble of genres in classical music; the royal discipline of the art of composing...
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=558 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=558)

Haydn 2009 - Fricsay's Symphonies (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=555)

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/weta_haydn2009_bmp1.bmp)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Cato on May 31, 2009, 01:15:39 PM

Quote from: jlaurson on May 31, 2009, 06:34:10 AM
What a mostly moronic article. Haydn isn't at the top of the list of Vienna-bound tourists? No shit. What a revelation. And as far as "Haydn has it hard in a country that was the birthplace (it was not) of Mozart", well, ask any half-way civilized Austrian concert-goer or classical music lover for the "Austrian National Composer" or "most Austrian composer" and you'll get "Haydn" in 9 out of 10 answers. And the (annual, btw.) Haydn Festival this year in Eisenstadt is UN BE LIEVABLE. Every symphony... every mass, every big name in music.

Alas, that would not have made as catchy a story.

I did not have a chance to comment earlier: yes, I found the article "unusual" in the sense of it trying to interest the uninterested by ignoring things of importance, stating trivialities (the thing about Haydn's wife), and asserting that Haydn was some sort of country bumpkin overshadowed by Stadt-slicker Mozart.

Author George Jahn seems to write more about international politics than music, and for the San Francisco Chronicle: maybe that accounts for the oddities.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on May 31, 2009, 08:03:33 PM

Quote from: Cato on May 31, 2009, 01:15:39 PM

Author George Jahn seems to write more about international politics than music, and for the San Francisco Chronicle: maybe that accounts for the oddities.

It shouldn't. (I used to write more about politics than music, too... [well, maybe some will think that that explains a lot...] In any case, I'm sure he can do better. But it's just such a typical "article". You can smell the pitch to his editor from a mile away. It's sad that 'general audience' articles about classical music become such bland melanges of meaninglessness with a touch of story. Where's the hard (http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/feb/15/despot-serenade/)hitting (http://www.forbes.com/2008/08/25/russia-ossetia-gergiev-oped-cx_jfl_gap_0826georgiaart.html)stuff? ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brünnhilde forever on May 31, 2009, 08:56:46 PM

Nothing to do with Haydn whatsoever: Want to thank you for the two links to your incisive articles!

As you were! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on June 01, 2009, 03:16:55 AM

Gee, I didn't know the excellent Petersen Qt had done a Haydn opus, even if it's nr 1

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on June 01, 2009, 03:36:17 AM

Quote from: Cato on May 31, 2009, 01:15:39 PM
I did not have a chance to comment earlier: yes, I found the article "unusual" in the sense of it trying to interest the uninterested by ignoring things of importance, stating trivialities (the thing about Haydn's wife), and asserting that Haydn was some sort of country bumpkin overshadowed by Stadt-slicker Mozart.

Baby's First Survey of Music History . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on June 01, 2009, 03:56:54 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on May 31, 2009, 08:03:33 PM
You can smell the pitch to his editor from a mile away.

indeed

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on June 04, 2009, 05:17:20 AM

Here is a link (http://deutsche-welle.de/popups/popup_single_mediaplayer/0,,4297034_start_752_end_1001_type_video_struct_7555_contentId_4295535,00.html?&format=FlashHigh) to the English version of "news item" I referred in Gurn's 'Classical' thread.

I would like someone here to identify the music that is performed when the narrator talks about Haydn's death (around the 2:50 mark). It definitely doesn't sound anything that was composed in his days... it sounds more like something that might have been written in the past thirty years, or something.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 04, 2009, 05:30:18 AM

Quote from: opus67 on June 04, 2009, 05:17:20 AM
Here is a link (http://deutsche-welle.de/popups/popup_single_mediaplayer/0,,4297034_start_752_end_1001_type_video_struct_7555_contentId_4295535,00.html?&format=FlashHigh) to the English version of "news item" I referred in Gurn's 'Classical' thread.

I would like someone here to identify the music that is performed when the narrator talks about Haydn's death (around the 2:50 mark). It definitely doesn't sound anything that was composed in his days... it sounds more like something that might have been written in the past thirty years, or something.

That was excellent, Op, thanks for that. Our seats weren't quite as good as Gabriel's, perhaps, but still... :)

I don't recognize that music, but I would tend to agree: either it's modern or the choir is out of tune... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on June 04, 2009, 05:37:37 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 04, 2009, 05:30:18 AM
either it's modern or the choir is out of tune... :D

Not much of a difference, methinks. :D

*ducks*

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on June 04, 2009, 05:40:09 AM

Quote from: opus67 on June 04, 2009, 05:37:37 AM
Not much of a difference, methinks. :D

Ouch!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 04, 2009, 05:46:40 AM

Quote from: opus67 on June 04, 2009, 05:37:37 AM
Not much of a difference, methinks. :D

*ducks*

;D

*all creatures, great and small*

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 04, 2009, 05:47:44 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 04, 2009, 05:40:09 AM
Ouch!

Umm, oh, hello Karl, hope you are doing well today... :-[

0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on June 04, 2009, 05:48:39 AM

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on June 04, 2009, 06:14:14 AM

In my defence, I haven't heard everything modern composers have to offer... you see, I did not say it makes no difference at all. 0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 04, 2009, 06:30:09 AM

Quote from: Que on July 23, 2007, 11:19:11 PM
For Haydn's (Joseph that is! ;D) fortepiano concertos we seem to be spoiled for choice with two TOP performers!
Could I have your comments on differences in approach and your preference? (If you have one, maybe you like them both.. 8))

Click on pictures for links

(http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/2261711.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/2261711/rk/classic/rsk/hitlist) (http://www.jpc.de/image/cover/front/0/2893963.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/hnum/2893963/rk/classic/rsk/hitlist).

Piano Concertos - anything new or comments on what is available currently?

Nearly 2 yrs ago in this thread, Q posted the above but there seem to be little response; but since that time, I've greatly expanded my Haydn collection w/ box sets, including the complete symphonies, baryton works, et al; however, I still have just one disc of piano concertos - so are these compositions worth obtaining in larger numbers?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 04, 2009, 10:50:27 PM

I am coming to the end of my library time with Haydn Op.20 with the Mosaiques.

I have real problems with Haydn SQs, but I hadn't heard Op.20 for years, so I thought a trip to HIP land might do the trick.

Well, my first impression was, no, this IS Haydn, but I force fed myself this stuff for two weeks.

A) I don't neccesarily think it's a HIP problem, but I don't know if I like the Mosaiques. Some say all you hear is the first violin and cello. I don't know if that's my issue. The Festetics seem to get better reviews, but I've heard some criticism there too.

B) Is that a slightly "late baroque" sound I hear? Is the HIP accentuating that?

C) The one SQ that jumped out at me was No.2 in C major. The slow mvmt. definitely had that minor key baroque sound I like, in a very masculine presentation. Does anyone else think No.2 has a somewhat more reserved character than the rest? For a Haydn SQ to be immediately appealing to me is odd, but this one hit all my expectations. Even the two minor key SQs proper didn't have the minor key sound of this one.

D) As much as I tried, I still can't tell them much apart. A few bits here and there reminded me of the LvB "start and stop- gotcha!" game. Perhaps this is where he got that (the g minor?). I don't know if it's the "sound" of the HIP, or the contours of the music, but my memory mushes a lot of it together. Only the drama of No.2 really siezed me so far.

Why don't I like Haydn SQs? For me, it seems that Haydn is the only composer who turns the homophonous SQ textures into sleepy time. I'll admit that the ABQ's razor sharp performance in "The Rider" woke me up, but I don't recall the Kodaly playing with that kind of passion. And these Mosaiques I'm just not really sure about. I keep wanting to hear a continuo. Am I just wrong??? ???

And why doesn't anyone ever want to discuss the middle SQs? It's always 76-77, 76-77, 76-77...

Anyhow, since we all live in a positive world, I would love to lift up Op.20 No.2 in C major as my new fav Haydn SQ! So there! IS there perhaps a more "gothic" performance, though (gothic as this one is)?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 04, 2009, 10:54:56 PM

I thought there was a Haydn SQ thread? If so, could you move me? Thanks.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on June 05, 2009, 01:32:10 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on June 04, 2009, 10:50:27 PM

Anyhow, since we all live in a positive world, I would love to lift up Op.20 No.4 in C major as my new fav Haydn SQ! So there! IS there perhaps a more "gothic" performance, though (gothic as this one is)?

I don't actually follow you in many or most of your responses to Haydn (though I might have been much more sympathetic, at some earlier point)... and esp. as regards the Quatuor Mosaique I'm a little surprised... but since we live in a positive world I'll leave all that aside, congratulate you on your tenacity listening to them in the first place, making a honest effort... and end with recommending you the Amadeus Quartet which, reading your description of what you did and did not like, I think might be--at this point--a better match for you than Mosaique & Co. Not exactly "Gothic" (can't turn a row boat into a destroyer), but definitely packed with more meat.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on June 05, 2009, 01:46:58 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on June 04, 2009, 10:54:56 PM
I thought there was a Haydn SQ thread? If so, could you move me? Thanks.

Done. And yes, I definitely think you should try the Festetics Qt - which are available again.

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on June 05, 2009, 03:20:18 AM

Quote from: Peregrine on May 23, 2009, 01:56:08 PM
Anyone heard the Auryn SQ on Tacet? I'm considering purchasing their Op.33, but would be helpful if anyone has any comments to make.

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/TACET168.jpg)

I haven't heard the Festetics yet, but so far the Auryn is certainly the quartet I like the most (by some measure!) of those who (have) record(ed) the complete quartets (Buchberger, Kodaly, Tatrai, Aueouleouaouan).
It's perhaps not as rich in nuance as others, and no, I'd not recommend them over Quatuor Mosaique (they're quite different, more traditional, in any case, so they don't really compete for the same impression)... but I'd definitely recommend picking up one of their volumes and listening in. I find them very rewarding.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on June 05, 2009, 09:25:41 AM

Haydn, Symphony No. 61 - Leslie Jones and The Little Orchestra of London from a Nonesuch LP.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/ukxn2q5ymwr/haydn61_jones-1.flac
http://www.mediafire.com/file/2nzzy2hmjww/haydn61_jones-2.flac
http://www.mediafire.com/file/kymzy21yfmz/haydn61_jones-3.flac
http://www.mediafire.com/file/zgk3y122nuz/haydn61_jones-4.flac

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2009, 09:45:15 AM

Quote from: Daverz on June 05, 2009, 09:25:41 AM
Haydn, Symphony No. 61 - Leslie Jones and The Little Orchestra of London from a Nonesuch LP.

http://www.mediafire.com/file/ukxn2q5ymwr/haydn61_jones-1.flac
http://www.mediafire.com/file/2nzzy2hmjww/haydn61_jones-2.flac
http://www.mediafire.com/file/kymzy21yfmz/haydn61_jones-3.flac
http://www.mediafire.com/file/zgk3y122nuz/haydn61_jones-4.flac

Thanks, daverz. A late friend of mine had these LP's in his younger days and was always telling me how good they were. Nice to have a chance to finally hear one. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: rubio on June 05, 2009, 10:25:52 AM

Anybody here heard the symphonies 99-104 as performed by Mogens Woldike/Vienna State Opera Orchestra (Vanguard Classics)? It seems mighty tempting, but difficult to find.

(http://image.allmusic.com/00/acg/cov200/cl200/l271/l271885e076.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on June 06, 2009, 07:38:12 AM

(http://images.artwithlife.multiply.com/image/1:musicwithlife/photos/9/400x400/12/haydn-no-wig.gif?et=k3EE97tBLI%2CKf9MK98f1yQ&nmid=126400038)

Guess who? (http://musicwithlife.multiply.com/photos/photo/9/12) ;D

Gabriel mentioning his seeing a painting of Haydn without a wig got me curious. I wonder if this was the one he saw? :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 06, 2009, 07:42:59 AM

Quote from: SonicMan on June 04, 2009, 06:30:09 AM
Piano Concertos - anything new or comments on what is available currently?

Nearly 2 yrs ago in this thread, Q posted the above but there seem to be little response; but since that time, I've greatly expanded my Haydn collection w/ box sets, including the complete symphonies, baryton works, et al; however, I still have just one disc of piano concertos - so are these compositions worth obtaining in larger numbers?

Well, I have the Brautigam disk, and it is as good as I've heard anyone in these pieces, with the added bonus of the fortepiano tone. The Staier is on my wish list, hope to get it very shortly. I have read some good reviews of it (and a bad one based on a guy who not only doesn't like fortepianos, but also has given every one of Staier's disks a bad review, based on the "fact" that he can't play the piano at all... ::) ).

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Paul Komen (Salvatore La Grassa 1815) - LvB Op 031 #1 Sonata #16 in G for Fortepiano 2nd mvmt - Adagio grazioso

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 06, 2009, 07:44:20 AM

Quote from: opus67 on June 06, 2009, 07:38:12 AM
(http://images.artwithlife.multiply.com/image/1:musicwithlife/photos/9/400x400/12/haydn-no-wig.gif?et=k3EE97tBLI%2CKf9MK98f1yQ&nmid=126400038)

Guess who? (http://musicwithlife.multiply.com/photos/photo/9/12) ;D

Gabriel mentioning his seeing a painting of Haydn without a wig got me curious. I wonder if this was the one he saw? :)

Good lord! :o :o :o

"Dammit, Martha, where's my wig?"

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Paul Komen (Salvatore La Grassa 1815) - LvB Op 031 #1 Sonata #16 in G for Fortepiano 2nd mvmt - Adagio grazioso

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gabriel on June 06, 2009, 08:30:07 AM

Quote from: opus67 on June 06, 2009, 07:38:12 AM
(http://images.artwithlife.multiply.com/image/1:musicwithlife/photos/9/400x400/12/haydn-no-wig.gif?et=k3EE97tBLI%2CKf9MK98f1yQ&nmid=126400038)

Guess who? (http://musicwithlife.multiply.com/photos/photo/9/12) ;D

Gabriel mentioning his seeing a painting of Haydn without a wig got me curious. I wonder if this was the one he saw? :)

Yes! I'm almost sure this is the one I saw in Eisenstadt. (I recall having read there that this is one of two paintings or litographs that show Haydn without a wig).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 06, 2009, 08:56:27 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 06, 2009, 07:42:59 AM
Well, I have the Brautigam disk, and it is as good as I've heard anyone in these pieces...................

Gurn - thanks for the 'thumbs up' on the Brautigam - on my 'too buy' list already having read some good reviews, and certainly would like to hear these works on the fortepiano! :D

But for all, curious if anyone has heard the 4-CD package of the Haydn PCs by Massimo Palumbo w/ a variety of orchestras? There is a recommended review by David Hurwitz reprinted on the ArkivMusic website HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?site_id=CTRV&album_id=90175); also, another excellent but short review on the AllMusic website HERE (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=43:119904) - I'm assuming that Palumbo is playing a 'modern' piano but the comments are short and do not describe the instruments nor the manner of performance; in addition, for those who may own this set, I would be interested in the packaging, i.e. cardboard sleves, 4 separate 'jewel boxes' or other? Thanks all - :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41JWJEMEA0L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 07, 2009, 02:01:50 PM

Well, I got (from the library) the Amadeus playing Opp. 71, 74, 77, & 103. At the same time, I'm listening to Boccherini Op.58 (1-6)/CPO (comparable in time to the late Haydn). I listed my reaction to B in the B thread. My reaction to these opp. of Haydn pretty much sent me back to the Op.20 (I kept the Mosaiques for another turn).

So... utilizing all of my powers of cd buying... with everything considered... I came up with the Lindsays Op.20 2,5, & 6..

ok...let me have it. Was I a good boy, or not?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Peregrine on June 07, 2009, 02:17:29 PM

Quote from: jlaurson on June 05, 2009, 03:20:18 AM
I haven't heard the Festetics yet, but so far the Auryn is certainly the quartet I like the most (by some measure!) of those who (have) record(ed) the complete quartets (Buchberger, Kodaly, Tatrai, Aueouleouaouan).
It's perhaps not as rich in nuance as others, and no, I'd not recommend them over Quatuor Mosaique (they're quite different, more traditional, in any case, so they don't really compete for the same impression)... but I'd definitely recommend picking up one of their volumes and listening in. I find them very rewarding.

I'm finding myself a little underwhelmed by the Auryn SQ at present, but maybe it will grow on me. Never been keen on the Mosaique SQ, find them quite dull.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 07, 2009, 05:38:32 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on June 07, 2009, 02:01:50 PM

So... utilizing all of my powers of cd buying... with everything considered... I came up with the Lindsays Op.20 2,5, & 6..

ok...let me have it. Was I a good boy, or not?

What I meant to say was, I bought the Lindsay disc ($6+s/h) because it had the three fugal ending SQs, and... I know their (Lindsay's) reputation is not what Penguin sometimes paints it as (I read a dismal amazon review of Op.54), but I am expecting the players to be in tune, and I am expecting not to have to go looking for another for these three SQs, meaning I am expecting "it" (in the good way).

Did I do good, or did I make a terrible mistake? Just for these three SQs, mind you.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on June 07, 2009, 07:03:33 PM

The Lindsays sound fine to me (although they are not favourites), they just aren't very trendy.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on June 07, 2009, 08:24:07 PM

I find myself wondering why HIP CDs of the complete Paris symphonies do not place them in the original order of composition/publishing. It would be interesting to hear a set not open with the Bear for once... Mix it up, dudes :(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on June 08, 2009, 01:00:21 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on June 07, 2009, 05:38:32 PM
What I meant to say was, I bought the Lindsay disc ($6+s/h) because it had the three fugal ending SQs, and... I know their (Lindsay's) reputation is not what Penguin sometimes paints it as (I read a dismal amazon review of Op.54), but I am expecting the players to be in tune, and I am expecting not to have to go looking for another for these three SQs, meaning I am expecting "it" (in the good way).

Did I do good, or did I make a terrible mistake? Just for these three SQs, mind you.

The facetious answer would be: "That depends on whether you insist on proper intonation or not."

But I quite like their Haydn where I feel enthusiasm pays dividends that some of their weaknesses don't negate.

(Doesn't work like that with Beethoven, to my ears.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 08, 2009, 04:16:04 AM

Quote from: Lethe on June 07, 2009, 08:24:07 PM
I find myself wondering why HIP CDs of the complete Paris symphonies do not place them in the original order of composition/publishing. It would be interesting to hear a set not open with the Bear for once... Mix it up, dudes :(

Well, #83, 85 & 87 were composed in 1785, while #82, 84 & 86 were from 1786. I can't narrow it any more than that, but you can see that the composition order and the publishing order don't match up. This is also true of many of the string quartet sets. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on June 08, 2009, 04:39:55 AM

Keeping things chronologically tidy for researchers in later ages, seems not to have been the priority :D

It was a business-like age, in some respects, in music; the wonder is that exceptionally great artists like Haydn and ~~Mozart~~ Lucchesi sprang forth from the loam . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on June 08, 2009, 04:43:13 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 08, 2009, 04:39:55 AM
Keeping things chronologically tidy for researchers in later ages, seems not to have been the priority :D

It was a business-like age, in some respects, in music; the wonder is that exceptionally great artists like Haydn and ~~Mozart~~ Lucchesi sprang forth from the loam . . . .

I see you are counting coup this morning, my friend. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 08, 2009, 04:43:48 AM

Quote from: SonicMan on June 06, 2009, 08:56:27 AM
Gurn - thanks for the 'thumbs up' on the Brautigam - on my 'too buy' list already having read some good reviews, and certainly would like to hear these works on the fortepiano! :D

But for all, curious if anyone has heard the 4-CD package of the Haydn PCs by Massimo Palumbo w/ a variety of orchestras? There is a recommended review by David Hurwitz reprinted on the ArkivMusic website HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?site_id=CTRV&album_id=90175); also, another excellent but short review on the AllMusic website HERE (http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=43:119904) - I'm assuming that Palumbo is playing a 'modern' piano but the comments are short and do not describe the instruments nor the manner of performance; in addition, for those who may own this set, I would be interested in the packaging, i.e. cardboard sleves, 4 separate 'jewel boxes' or other? Thanks all - :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41JWJEMEA0L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

For those who may be interested in the 4-CD set above, I sent the company an e-mail last week and received a response this AM - amazed! :D

Palumbo is playing a modern piano and period instruments are NOT used; still does not negate the reviews, but... :-\ Also, the packaging is 4 discs in separate jewel boxes (each w/ their own booklet) in a slipcase box - would prefer more of a slimmer offering (and at a reduced price) - will have to think more on this one, unless someone can encourage me strongly - ;) ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 08, 2009, 04:49:13 AM

Quote from: SonicMan on June 08, 2009, 04:43:48 AM
For those who may be interested in the 4-CD set above, I sent the company an e-mail last week and received a response this AM - amazed! :D

Palumbo is playing a modern piano and period instruments are NOT used; still does not negate the reviews, but... :-\ Also, the packaging is 4 discs in separate jewel boxes (each w/ their own booklet) in a slipcase box - would prefer more of a slimmer offering (and at a reduced price) - will have to think more on this one, unless someone can encourage me strongly - ;) ;D

Thanks for researching that, Dave. Obviously the reason I didn't answer is that all my info came from Amazon, which was essentially nothing. "Arts" does have some period instrument recordings, so I figured a 50/50 chance anyway. Pity really. I encourage you strongly to get it, so you can give me a fair and balanced review... ;D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on June 08, 2009, 04:58:00 AM

Quote from: Bogey on June 08, 2009, 04:43:13 AM
I see you are counting coup this morning, my friend. :)

Good morning, Bill!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on June 08, 2009, 05:12:53 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 08, 2009, 04:39:55 AM
Keeping things chronologically tidy for researchers in later ages, seems not to have been the priority :D

It was a business-like age, in some respects, in music; the wonder is that exceptionally great artists like Haydn and ~~Mozart~~ Lucchesi sprang forth from the loam . . . .

And, of course, Loochey not just composed anti-chronologically, but also in various forms flesh. Hats off, gentlemen!!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 08, 2009, 08:36:56 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 08, 2009, 04:49:13 AM
Thanks for researching that, Dave. Obviously the reason I didn't answer is that all my info came from Amazon, which was essentially nothing. "Arts" does have some period instrument recordings, so I figured a 50/50 chance anyway. Pity really. I encourage you strongly to get it, so you can give me a fair and balanced review... ;D

Gurn - LOL! ;D So, I'm to be the Guinea Pig! ;) :D However, I am tempted, but will give the Brautigam the first try! Dave :)

(http://bioweb.uwlax.edu/bio203/s2008/nickel_sara/guinea-pig.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 08, 2009, 09:42:50 AM

How is it that the Vegh and Lindsay, supposedly "great" quartets, seem to have intonation problems as their calling card? This WAS the open criticism in the amazon review of Op.54.

So, when Penguin guide talks about the "joys of live music making", that's code for "intonation problems"? ::) Is this a congenital problem with the Lindsays? I don't recall any problems with the Tippett, and that surely is some knotty music.

Are the Lindsays supposed to be HIP??? I almost get that feeling from the way Penguin fawns over them.

Well, their Op.20 2,5, & 6 was pretty cheap, and it was the three SQs I wanted. Oh, listen to me trying to make myself feel better. :P

Maybe they had a good day on this particular recording? ;D

btw- please vote in the LvB Op.18 poll in the "Recordings" page.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on June 08, 2009, 12:35:28 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on June 08, 2009, 09:42:50 AM
How is it that the Vegh and Lindsay, supposedly "great" quartets, seem to have intonation problems as their calling card? This WAS the open criticism in the amazon review of Op.54.

Same problem with the first violinists of the Juilliard and Amadeus Qt. These are people, not machines.

Very few people would call the Lindsay QT a really great quartet, in the sense that we'll be listening to those records long after the quartet's demise.

Quote from: snyprrr on June 08, 2009, 09:42:50 AMAre the Lindsays supposed to be HIP??? I almost get that feeling from the way Penguin fawns over them.

No, they are not HIP.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 08, 2009, 08:04:38 PM

Excepting The Rider,
I especially enjoyed Op.71 No.3 (Eb)
and Op.74 No.2 (F)
from the Amadeus set.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 10, 2009, 02:22:23 PM

Just got Lindsays/Haydn Op.20 2, 5, 6.

Just a casual compare w/Mosaiques on initial reaction of No.2, mvmts 2-3. The Lindsays are 1.5mins. shorter in my fav slow mvmt., but they still seem to have the measure when the rhythm notes begin (what are they called?). The QM on the other hand, sound almost orchestral in their opening majesty.

This is my first direct modern vs HIP experience, and it's very strange. All of a sudden the QM, no doubt to MY ignorant ears, sound "baroque", or "gothic", and I keep thinking I'm hearing a continuo in my mind (just because of the "sound", mind you). I'm not going to say the Lindsays sound Beethovenian, but the opening "riff" of the slow mvmt definitely "sounds" more like the SQ music I'm used to hearing. The music "sounds" more modern because of

A) the instruments and strings

B) the less-than-HIP performance style of the modern Quartet

but, it's the same music!!! How bout that! With the HIP performance, I feel like I'm "hearing things" (I suppose it's all those cat guts, etc), whereas with the modern performance everything seems nicely "nipped and tucked". It's the same music... but my brain's just not hearing it that way at all. My brain is telling me I'm hearing "baroque music" when I hear the HIP, and this was not the case before I got this direct comparison disc (could've been any Quartet as far as I can tell). Even with other modern Haydn around (Amadeus 71-74), until I heard the SAME music by contrasting bands, was the difference just jumping out and slapping me.

I also get the sense that HIP performance is "slower" than modern because they have to give "space" to all that resonating cat gut goodness (very Scelsian if you ask me... and I know you won't ::)) so that I wonder how HIP comes off when the score calls for really fast playing (trying to think of a Haydn SQ example... mmm... brainfart). Some of that Amadeus set comes off real electric fast (and I perhaps enjoyed their more blood and guts "Rider" to the ABQ's more "beautifully Viennese" Teldec version).

This is just my initial reaction. I'm not poo pooing either "side", so no ruffled feathers, please! ;) Only note is I thought the Lindsays opened No.2 with more of the perfect tempo, a little faster than QM.

I'm getting ready to do some in depth comparison and I can't wait; but my initial reaction was slighty disconcerting: like I said, I really "felt" as though I was listening to two different musics. Obviously, I GUESS, "people like Gurn" (haha) listen "just" to HIP in this repertoire, and I guess your ear just gets used to it, ok that's works; but all you people (including Gurn, if it applies :)) who enjoy both kinds of performing styles for the same music... how do you keep it from driving you bonkers, all this back and forth comparing or favoring or wot not??? The "sounds" to me are just sooo different... very hard for me to reconcile at this point. Has anyone else had this experience?

Remember the third part of Pavlov's experiment?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scarpia on June 10, 2009, 03:31:08 PM

Odd that the complete cycle by the Aeolian on Decca never seems to come up in these discussions.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 11, 2009, 09:37:04 AM

Lindsays and Mosaiques:

Comparing is a wonderful thing. The sheer sound of the QM is orchestrally impressive. The Lindsays' "intimate joys of live music making" schtick is also impressive (the liner notes state that the Lindsays are in the Vegh/Budapest interpretive camp).

Ultimately, the Lindsays fared pretty well against the "industry standard." There appeared to be some dynamic exaggerations on their part (they CAN play really quietly, can't they), but nothing shocking to the gentry. Generally, tempos were pretty matched, and the playing styles weren't all that different once you got down to it. I think in clarity of inner voices the Lindsays might have the edge in their cleaner recording, but the QM certainly come away from this comparison as the "industry standard" (including the almost orchestral recording).

Except for the massive skipping on track 6 (I bght a library cd), I really enjoyed the Lindsays. Different than the Amadeus, the ABQ, or the Kodaly... or maybe it's just that Op.20 IS more intimate than the later SQs. And yes, there might have been a few moments of questionable "human-ness", but they did not diminish from the fact that these guys really are taking this stuff seriously (cld certainly recommend this particular cd to anyone as a top, single cd testament of Haydn's acheivement in Op.20 and beyond.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 11, 2009, 09:46:21 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on June 11, 2009, 09:37:04 AM
Lindsays and Mosaiques:

Comparing is a wonderful thing. The sheer sound of the QM is orchestrally impressive. The Lindsays' "intimate joys of live music making" schtick is also impressive (the liner notes state that the Lindsays are in the Vegh/Budapest interpretive camp).

Ultimately, the Lindsays fared pretty well against the "industry standard." There appeared to be some dynamic exaggerations on their part (they CAN play really quietly, can't they), but nothing shocking to the gentry. Generally, tempos were pretty matched, and the playing styles weren't all that different once you got down to it. I think in clarity of inner voices the Lindsays might have the edge in their cleaner recording, but the QM certainly come away from this comparison as the "industry standard" (including the almost orchestral recording).

Except for the massive skipping on track 6 (I bght a library cd), I really enjoyed the Lindsays. Different than the Amadeus, the ABQ, or the Kodaly... or maybe it's just that Op.20 IS more intimate than the later SQs. And yes, there might have been a few moments of questionable "human-ness", but they did not diminish from the fact that these guys really are taking this stuff seriously (cld certainly recommend this particular cd to anyone as a top, single cd testament of Haydn's acheivement in Op.20 and beyond.

snypp,
Well, I'm not that surprised that you enjoyed their recording. I may have mentioned somewhere that some people have a tendency to magnify one or another thing that they don't like into "unlistenable" in pretty short order. :)

As to your earlier post about HIP/non-HIP, I am in the camp that listens to both, especially in chamber music which went through less in the way of interpretive warping than did orchestral music. I really don't have a problem in keeping the 2 camps separate in my head (which you asked about) because at the time of listening, I am only listening to what's playing, I don't simultaneously compare something else to it. Later I might do so. Or not, if I liked them both. As the French say "Vive le differénce" (although with different accents, I suppose :D ). All other things being equal, I will take the period instruments every time. However, I will take the better performance every time, too. ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: ChamberNut on June 11, 2009, 09:55:00 AM

Gurn, I know you and many others are a fan of L'Archibudelli. I have their recording of Haydn's Op. 77 and Op. 103 and just don't like it. I think it's a HIP issue with me. I'm just not HIP with it. :-\ 8) 0:)

Hope I'm still welcome on this board! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 11, 2009, 09:58:06 AM

Yes, thank you Gurn (and all others), for being so open to my questions.

Point: when I was comparing them, I got two cd players and I was actually playing both at the same time, synched up, and WOW, because the QM tunes down a little, the two playing simultaneously was the most psychedelic experience. Trippy!!! ;DHa!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 11, 2009, 10:09:19 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on June 11, 2009, 09:55:00 AM
Gurn, I know you and many others are a fan of L'Archibudelli. I have their recording of Haydn's Op. 77 and Op. 103 and just don't like it. I think it's a HIP issue with me. I'm just not HIP with it. :-\ 8) 0:)

Hope I'm still welcome on this board! :D

Oh, I suppose... 0:)

I have Festetics, Mosaiques AND L'Archibudelli, so pretty much have the period instrument scale covered. :) I haven't decided my preference yet though. They each have something to say, maybe one day one of them will speak a bit louder than the others. Meanwhile, I give them plenty of opportunity. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 11, 2009, 10:10:48 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on June 11, 2009, 09:58:06 AM
Yes, thank you Gurn (and all others), for being so open to my questions.

Point: when I was comparing them, I got two cd players and I was actually playing both at the same time, synched up, and WOW, because the QM tunes down a little, the two playing simultaneously was the most psychedelic experience. Trippy!!! ;DHa!

Now, THAT sounds interesting. Hmmm.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on June 11, 2009, 10:37:49 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on June 11, 2009, 09:37:04 AM
I think in clarity of inner voices the Lindsays might have the edge in their cleaner recording, but the QM certainly come away from this comparison as the "industry standard" (including the almost orchestral recording).

Where do you get this idea that the Quator Mosaiques represents the "Industry Standard", assuming we must read the quotation marks as an indication of a communis opinio? I certainly don't regard them as the central interpreters of Haydn, or anything. And as HIP-group I find their recordings a tad strange becuase of that orchestral sound they or their engineers present. There is just no way that brings us any closer to what Haydn heard in his head &c.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on June 11, 2009, 10:42:05 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on June 11, 2009, 09:58:06 AM
Point: when I was comparing them, I got two cd players and I was actually playing both at the same time, synched up, and WOW, because the QM tunes down a little, the two playing simultaneously was the most psychedelic experience. Trippy!!! ;DHa!

I once had something similar happen to me by accident. I was at EMIs website sampling Mozart's SQs. Without realising that each (sample) track opened in its own pop-up media-player window, I clicked on SQ 14 (wanted to click 15) and then clicked 15. What resulted in the next few seconds was absolute...

...20th century music! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scarpia on June 11, 2009, 11:25:46 AM

Quote from: Herman on June 11, 2009, 10:37:49 AM
Where do you get this idea that the Quator Mosaiques represents the "Industry Standard", assuming we must read the quotation marks as an indication of a communis opinio? I certainly don't regard them as the central interpreters of Haydn, or anything. And as HIP-group I find their recordings a tad strange becuase of that orchestral sound they or their engineers present. There is just no way that brings us any closer to what Haydn heard in his head &c.

I tend to agree. I had several of the Q.M. recordings but found them dreadful, clarity of the voices and incisive dynamics were entirely lacking.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on June 11, 2009, 12:31:42 PM

Just bought Quatuor Ebene's Haydn disc and I really do recommend it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 11, 2009, 07:37:01 PM

Quote from: opus106 on June 11, 2009, 10:42:05 AM
I once had something similar happen to me by accident. I was at EMIs website sampling Mozart's SQs. Without realising that each (sample) track opened in its own pop-up media-player window, I clicked on SQ 14 (wanted to click 15) and then clicked 15. What resulted in the next few seconds was absolute...

...20th century music! ;D

THAT sounds wwwiiilllddd!!! :D ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 11, 2009, 07:45:14 PM

Quote from: Herman on June 11, 2009, 10:37:49 AM
Where do you get this idea that the Quator Mosaiques represents the "Industry Standard", assuming we must read the quotation marks as an indication of a communis opinio? I certainly don't regard them as the central interpreters of Haydn, or anything. And as HIP-group I find their recordings a tad strange becuase of that orchestral sound they or their engineers present. There is just no way that brings us any closer to what Haydn heard in his head &c.

Quote from: Scarpia on June 11, 2009, 11:25:46 AM
I tend to agree. I had several of the Q.M. recordings but found them dreadful, clarity of the voices and incisive dynamics were entirely lacking.

I... didn't... say... anything >:D ::) ;D, teehee...

...when your a Jet your...

;D ;D ;D

I'm not trying to start nuthin ::), oh...ok...maybe >:D ::) ;D

Gurn!!! 0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 11, 2009, 07:49:55 PM

HIP is a money pit! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: FideLeo on June 11, 2009, 07:58:32 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on June 11, 2009, 07:49:55 PM
HIP is a money pit! ;D

For recorded classical music, that is an industry standard. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Peregrine on June 11, 2009, 10:06:39 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on June 11, 2009, 12:31:42 PM
Just bought Quatuor Ebene's Haydn disc and I really do recommend it.

They're a superb SQ.

Been highly impressed with the latest Haydn disc from the Jerusalem SQ -

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/HMX2962030.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Valentino on June 11, 2009, 11:16:15 PM

QM bashing? It had to happen.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on June 12, 2009, 12:09:59 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on June 11, 2009, 07:49:55 PM
HIP is a money pit! ;D

There you go. It's the only way the record companies can persuade classical music enthusiasts one more time to replace their previous collection.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: FideLeo on June 12, 2009, 12:19:26 AM

Quote from: Valentino on June 11, 2009, 11:16:15 PM
QM bashing? It had to happen.

I heard them live a couple of weeks ago in London, playing the Opp. 77 and 103. In Wigmore Hall they sounded as good and impressive as they did on recording of the same, which was made, what, 20 years ago?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Valentino on June 12, 2009, 02:02:30 AM

I heard them do op. 64/3 and 64/6 in Oslo last summer. Terriffic, and I went out and bought the set afterwards. I love their Haydn. Their Mendelssohn doesn't quite hit home, mut that could be Mendelssohn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on June 12, 2009, 08:29:17 AM

My Own Private Haydn Survey continues . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 12, 2009, 09:37:33 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 12, 2009, 08:29:17 AM
My Own Private Haydn Survey continues . . . .

How far have you got, Karl? I figure you are more or less up to "Lamentation". If so, you might give us some thoughts on that piece, which I find quite interesting and unusual for a symphony... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on June 12, 2009, 09:40:38 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 12, 2009, 09:37:33 AM
How far have you got, Karl? I figure you are more or less up to "Lamentation". If so, you might give us some thoughts on that piece, which I find quite interesting and unusual for a symphony... :)

8)

Next disc in the survey, Gurn! I've turned to RVW as a palate-cleanser at the moment, though.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 12, 2009, 09:41:39 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 12, 2009, 09:40:38 AM
Next disc in the survey, Gurn! I've turned to RVW as a palate-cleanser at the moment, though.

Ah, I'm all a'twitter! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: ChamberNut on June 12, 2009, 11:09:58 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 12, 2009, 08:29:17 AM
My Own Private Haydn Survey continues . . . .

Karl, how's the Haydn symphony project going? Where are you at? 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on June 12, 2009, 11:16:52 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on June 12, 2009, 11:09:58 AM
Karl, how's the Haydn symphony project going? Where are you at? 8)

Just now landed at the Lamentatione which Gurn mentioned, Ray. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg319451.html#msg319451)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on June 13, 2009, 09:17:56 AM

When I knew that Arcana discs would be re-released, I immediately decided to buy the Festitcs cycle devoted to Haydn's string quartets: nine sets, nineteen discs (CD9, 3 discs). Almost one month ago, I did it.

Now, I have heard many times the first two sets (Op. 9 and 17) and the first disc of the third one (Op. 20), and I can say without any doubt that was a great decision. I have completely enjoyed every moment of these excellent performances. It is true, probably the Festetics is not the most refined string quartet in the planet, but its members understand deeply this music and its conversational spirit. They are superbly connected one to the other, but preserving their individualities (and certainly helped by the intimate character of the sound quality).

And what a great music is this! Let's me quote some words that I did read some time ago on the Telegraph Blogs, written by a contributor named Pes. This quotation summarizes my own feelings about this music:

"Hooray for Haydn, and I completely agree about his quartets. Damian, have you heard the Kodaly Quartet's recordings of them on Naxos? Many pleasant hours, there. What I like about Haydn's quartets is that their invention never seems hurried or self-conscious: it's just articulate, civilized conversation, set forth in well-mannered sentences and paragraphs, on a whole variety of interesting topics.

"Of course, if it's tortured reasoning, stamping, and vexation that you really want, there's plenty of that to be found elsewhere. The latter doesn't constitute greater musical "profundity," though, and maybe that's where the defense of Haydn finds its place. He's amiable and interesting, and he talks sense. One wishes to have known him".

All these features are present in the Festetics' recordings.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 13, 2009, 10:12:56 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on June 13, 2009, 09:17:56 AM
When I knew that Arcana discs would be re-released, I immediately decided to buy the Festitcs cycle devoted to Haydn's string quartets: nine sets, nineteen discs (CD9, 3 discs). Almost one month ago, I did it.

Now, I have heard many times the first two sets (Op. 9 and 17) and the first disc of the third one (Op. 20), and I can say without any doubt that was a great decision. I have completely enjoyed every moment of these excellent performances. It is true, probably the Festetics is not the most refined string quartet in the planet, but its members understand deeply this music and its conversational spirit. They are superbly connected one to the other, but preserving their individualities (and certainly helped by the intimate character of the sound quality).

And what a great music is this! Let's me quote some words that I did read some time ago on the Telegraph Blogs, written by a contributor named Pes. This quotation summarizes my own feelings about this music:

"Hooray for Haydn, and I completely agree about his quartets. Damian, have you heard the Kodaly Quartet's recordings of them on Naxos? Many pleasant hours, there. What I like about Haydn's quartets is that their invention never seems hurried or self-conscious: it's just articulate, civilized conversation, set forth in well-mannered sentences and paragraphs, on a whole variety of interesting topics.

"Of course, if it's tortured reasoning, stamping, and vexation that you really want, there's plenty of that to be found elsewhere. The latter doesn't constitute greater musical "profundity," though, and maybe that's where the defense of Haydn finds its place. He's amiable and interesting, and he talks sense. One wishes to have known him".

All these features are present in the Festetics' recordings.

Antoine, your taste here is excellent, as always. I have the lion's share of the Festetics recordings and they are top drawer in MY book too. And as a matter of fact, I have the complete Kodaly set too, and for a modern instruments version I think it is more than acceptable, and recommendable to anyone with an interest in learning these works. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03 35 Quartet in f for Strings Op 20 #5 3rd mvmt - Adagio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on June 13, 2009, 12:39:24 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 13, 2009, 10:12:56 AM
Antoine, your taste here is excellent, as always. I have the lion's share of the Festetics recordings and they are top drawer in MY book too.

I just can say that your new avatar suits perfectly with your kind personality, amigo. :)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 13, 2009, 10:12:56 AM
And as a matter of fact, I have the complete Kodaly set too, and for a modern instruments version I think it is more than acceptable, and recommendable to anyone with an interest in learning these works. :)

BTW, currently Brilliant offers the complete string quartets by the Buchberger Quartet in a box set (23 CDs). They play on modern instruments and, IMO, are rather recommendable too.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on June 13, 2009, 12:53:20 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on June 13, 2009, 09:17:56 AM
When I knew that Arcana discs would be re-released, I immediately decided to buy the Festitcs cycle devoted to Haydn's string quartets: nine sets, nineteen discs (CD9, 3 discs). Almost one month ago, I did it.

Congratulations with your decision! :)
Concerning complete collections of the Festetics Qt's Haydn, you're joining ranks at GMG with - as far as I know - rubio and myself (And Gurn is right behind us! :o 8)) I can assure you that there are countless joys ahead in that series.

Those who are expecting super-fast & razor-sharp excitement will be disappointed. The QF plays at times swift but can also take movements surprisingly leasurely. When things get intense, the subtle sound of the gut strings prevents edginess. The QF does not aim for refinement, which distinguishes the right approach in a Haynd SQ, which might be a different case in a Mozart SQ IMO. Refinement as such is not the name of the game in Haydn, nor is it in-your-face high strung emotions. I agree with Antoine: it's about a sense of conversation, also wit, charm, subtle colourings and interesting rhythmic treatment. On the face of it the QF does a low key approach, but they really get into the heart of the music and on closer hearing their performances are full of spontaneity and brimming with energy. And yes, the Hungarian SQ tradition is noticeable, much to the credit of the performances.

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 13, 2009, 01:27:01 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on June 13, 2009, 12:39:24 PM
I just can say that your new avatar suits perfectly with your kind personality, amigo. :)

BTW, currently Brilliant offers the complete string quartets by the Buchberger Quartet in a box set (23 CDs). They play on modern instruments and, IMO, are rather recommendable too.

Ha! I didn't realize that Buchberger cycle had been completed! Know what that means? One more step towards Volume 2 of the Big Box! Now they seriously need to get after the String Trios (They need to prod Camerata Berolinensis, IMO) and then the multitude of divertimentos. And the rest of the operas, of course. All the things that I really want from Haydn were the ones that they hadn't got to in Volume 1 (of course ::) )

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03 34 Quartet in D for Strings Op 20 #4 2nd mvmt - Un poco adagio e affettuoso

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 13, 2009, 01:33:28 PM

Quote from: Que on June 13, 2009, 12:53:20 PM
Congratulations with your decision! :)
Concerning complete collections of the Festetics Qt's Haydn, you're joining ranks at GMG with - as far as I know - rubio and myself (And Gurn is right behind us! :o 8)) I can assure you that there are countless joys ahead in that series.

Those who are expecting super-fast & razor-sharp excitement will be disappointed. The QF plays at times swift but can also take movements surprisingly leasurely. When things get intense, the subtle sound of the gut strings prevents edginess. The QF does not aim for refinement, which distinguishes the right approach in a Haynd SQ, which might be a different case in a Mozart SQ IMO. Refinement as such is not the name of the game in Haydn, nor is it in-your-face high strung emotions. I agree with Antoine: it's about a sense of conversation, also wit, charm, subtle colourings and interesting rhythmic treatment. On the face of it the QF does a low key approach, but they really get into the heart of the music and on closer hearing their performances are full of spontaneity and brimming with energy. And yes, the Hungarian SQ tradition is noticeable, much to the credit of the performances.

Q

Completely agreed. They prove very nicely that speed <> intensity. I have been getting more pure enjoyment out of this cycle than any other so far, and I say that as someone who normally does prefer zippy tempos in my music. The conversational aspect has never been more on display than it is here. In my favorite group, Op 50, they even surpass the justly famous Tokyo version for bringing out the pure humor of these pieces. They were composed at the height of Haydn's friendship with Mozart (1786-7), and it easy to imagine them as representing an evening in Vienna amongst friends. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03 34 Quartet in D for Strings Op 20 #4 4th mvmt - Presto e scherzando

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on June 13, 2009, 02:10:45 PM

Quote from: Que on June 13, 2009, 12:53:20 PM
Those who are expecting super-fast & razor-sharp excitement will be disappointed. The QF plays at times swift but can also take movements surprisingly leasurely. When things get intense, the subtle sound of the gut strings prevents edginess. The QF does not aim for refinement, which distinguishes the right approach in a Haynd SQ, which might be a different case in a Mozart SQ IMO. Refinement as such is not the name of the game in Haydn, nor is it in-your-face high strung emotions. I agree with Antoine: it's about a sense of conversation, also wit, charm, subtle colourings and interesting rhythmic treatment. On the face of it the QF does a low key approach, but they really get into the heart of the music and on closer hearing their performances are full of spontaneity and brimming with energy. And yes, the Hungarian SQ tradition is noticeable, much to the credit of the performances.

Q

I totally agree with you, Que. Your description can't be more exact.

Even you say -or suggest, I believe- two things that I forgot to include in my post: the first one about the tempi (exactly described in your post) and the second about certain Slavonic melancholy (or feeling) present in these recordings. Although I don't know if the adjective "Slavonic" is historically accurate here or if has any sense for other people in this case.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 13, 2009, 05:24:21 PM

Guys - thanks for the last page or so of posts - an enjoyable read for me! :)

Now, as you know, I'm a Haydn fan and own all of his SQs (several in multiple versions), but w/ probably a half dozen or more different performers (all or more of the ones already mentioned) - enjoy a variety of approaches to these works, which is more likely a reflection of the 'brilliance' of Joe's composing than the variable interpretations.

Since this is the 200th anniversary of his death, complete versions of many of his works are obviously appearing, including the SQs; thus, I'd like to acquire my first 'complete' SQ version - I already own some of the Buchberger Quartet & the Kodaly Quartet recordings, so could easily purchase their complete offerings.

But, for those readers just getting into Haydn's SQs, may be some generalized recommendations should be given; e.g. modern vs. more HIP performances; also, for the many more 'modern' instrument interpretations, some general comments might be useful to those just coming into wanting to obtain these works. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on June 13, 2009, 10:48:23 PM

For those who want to try some of Quator Festetics' Haydn, I've opened a folder with uploaded samples from the series (http://www.arcana.eu/festetics.html). All 320kbs MP3.

http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=9c0ccb4c58d823bad5a101cf914073b45e078250d9cbedf5

(http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedia/images_produits/ZoomPE/4/1/0/8033891690014.jpg) (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3866.0;attach=18502;image) (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3866.0;attach=18503;image) (http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedia/images_produits/ZoomPE/1/2/0/8033891690021.jpg)

Looking forward to further comments. :)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on June 14, 2009, 01:31:50 AM

Quote from: Que on June 13, 2009, 12:53:20 PM
Congratulations with your decision! :)
The QF does not aim for refinement, which distinguishes the right approach in a Haynd SQ, which might be a different case in a Mozart SQ IMO. Refinement as such is not the name of the game in Haydn, nor is it in-your-face high strung emotions.

I don't see why these qualities should be mutually exclusive. Nor do I see why Mozart would be more a composer for 'refinement' since he is arguably a more dramatic SQ composer than Haydn.

In my opinion both composers benefit from 'refinement' in their string quartets. These works were aimed at the sophisticated listener, not at laymen (in so far as any laymen music consumers existed back then).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 16, 2009, 02:18:39 PM

I went back to the library and got Amadeus/71, 74, 76, 77 and Kolday/33-3,4,6.

Slowly, verrry slowly, I'm warming to a few of these SQs. I started enjoying 76/6 again; quite the enigmatic Haydn. He truly does hide complexity underneath a "white" exterior.

And I heard 76/2, the "Fifths" again, and the Amadeus difinitely made my ears prick up. It appears as though 76/2 and 76/6 were the most modern music at the time, and surely Haydn's first "scherzo" in 76/2 almost sounds like (Orff+Webern)-Berlioz. The Amadeus open 76/2 much differently than I remember from the Kodaly (which I remember kind of turning me off). I'm wondering who has the most "demonic" Fifths?

Of course, who can't like an SQ in g minor (74/3)?

I'm absolutely struggling with Op.33. To my view, I should think that the b minor quartet, 33/1, would be the best of the set (but I had the Kodaly years ago, and the b minor didn't keep me from selling). Can anyone refresh my memory concerning the b minor? I don't recall it being a minor key masterpiece, right?

Also, 71/3 in Eb kind of reminds me of 76/6 (duh, also in Eb) in that laboratory kind of experimental way.

What's the noblest Op.77? Absolute autumnal and palace marble? These two SQs seem slower to me, and therefore they seem to me that they would greatly benefit from the HIP treatment (more so than others, perhaps, IMHO?).

btw- REALLY really enjoying the Lindsays 20/2,5 & 6.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on June 16, 2009, 02:20:56 PM

The Kodaly op. 77 is often phenomenally good and powerful. A certain GMG turned me onto the Tatrai, and that has its moments as well. I have two other recordings of that piece, but the Kodaly is just the most captivating imho.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 16, 2009, 02:26:26 PM

Do you know that little 5-6 note figure in the first mvmt. of 20/5 in f minor that occurs 2.5 times in the mvmt?. It comes during those points of greatest tension/release, and it is one of those melodies I've heard pop/rock people using my whole life, and hey!, there's Haydn using it too. It's that high, minor key melody in the first violin.

I first noticed this on the Lindsay recording, but when I went to the QM I noticed that they kind of under-characterized this crucial melody, whereas the Lindsays practically put it on a pedestal to great effect. This pointed up to me how everyone is different, and not all see all.

It is now my all time fav Haydn "lick."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 16, 2009, 02:47:28 PM

Would anyone like to comment on that funny little modern sounding upward scale in mvmt.2 of 77/1?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: ChamberNut on June 16, 2009, 02:59:49 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on June 16, 2009, 02:47:28 PM
Would anyone like to comment on that funny little modern sounding upward scale in mvmt.2 of 77/1?

Fantastic! Love that 2nd mvt. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on June 16, 2009, 03:16:04 PM

Quote from: ChamberNut on June 16, 2009, 02:59:49 PM
Fantastic! Love that 2nd mvt. :)

That motif show up in a couple of his other works, but you ain't getting those from me. Happy listening!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 16, 2009, 07:39:54 PM

Every day it seems I'm hearing a different band play Haydn, almost at random (probably in an attempt to confront my Haydnphobia).

One thing that I notice is that different bands seem to please me in different SQs. It seems I'll not like a piece until along comes a band that makes sense of it to me.

So, in other words, even if I don't like a Haydn, there is probably a band out there that can change my mind (scary $$$ thought).

I must be growing up ::).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 17, 2009, 04:24:49 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on June 16, 2009, 07:39:54 PM
Every day it seems I'm hearing a different band play Haydn, almost at random (probably in an attempt to confront my Haydnphobia).

One thing that I notice is that different bands seem to please me in different SQs. It seems I'll not like a piece until along comes a band that makes sense of it to me.

So, in other words, even if I don't like a Haydn, there is probably a band out there that can change my mind (scary $$$ thought).

I must be growing up ::).

Yup, scary! :o :o But that's also one of the main arguments against buying complete cycles, that no one performer is going to do the best interpretation of every work. It ends up causing some difficult choices to be made. One method that's a little less $$$ is to find an ensemble/performer that pleases you in many things, and then supplement that set wit a few singles. This works with Beethoven sonatas, Mozart piano concertos, and will probably work with Haydn SQ's too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Valentino on June 17, 2009, 05:44:35 AM

Should I get the Festitics 77? I have QM. Does it come with 76 btw?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 17, 2009, 05:57:45 AM

Quote from: Valentino on June 17, 2009, 05:44:35 AM
Should I get the Festitics 77? I have QM. Does it come with 76 btw?

I have the Festetics 77 on Harmonia Mundi rather than the one from Arcana, so I can't answer your second question other than to say that the one on HM comes just the Op 77 and 103 quartettsatzen. As for whether you should get it, well, it's different than the QM, I suppose I would ask myself if I liked the QM's way of playing it... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: FideLeo on June 17, 2009, 06:29:13 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 17, 2009, 05:57:45 AM
I have the Festetics 77 on Harmonia Mundi rather than the one from Arcana, so I can't answer your second question other than to say that the one on HM comes just the Op 77 and 103 quartettsatzen. As for whether you should get it, well, it's different than the QM, I suppose I would ask myself if I liked the QM's way of playing it... :-\

8)

I think in the Arcana FQ version of Opp. 76 and 77 comes as a 3-disc set. mdt link (http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//A419.htm)

I have a few of their Haydn recordings in the older Arcana edition (jewel box and cardboard sleeve) - but am not in a hurry to acquire the rest. Do like their Schubert Quintet w/Kuijken, though, where the music seems to me to benefit more from their expansive playing style.

Someone with a taste in Haydn that is close to mine has this to say about FQ's Opp. 76-7
in comparison with their rival, QM:

> I have no hesitation in preferring the Mosaiques in Opp. 76 and 77. While it's
> true their tempi aren't that different from the Festetics', and while (thanks in
> part to the engineers, I suspect) their sonorities aren't that different either,
> the Mosaiques have greater suppleness of phrasing and rhythm than the rather
> stiffer-sounding Festetics (this is immediately obvious at the start of 76/1/i)
> and, unlike the Festetics, they seem to have a sense of humour and convey a
> sense of stronger characterization (not surprising, given their Harnoncourt
> connections). The start of the Mosaiques' 77/1/i (I can't believe this
> recording is 20 years old) has an engaging jaunty swagger that's missing from
> the Festetics' (I've not compared this with the Festetics' earlier recording on
> Quintana, whose more distant microphone placement made them sound radically
> different). The Festetics' Op. 50 is much as you would expect from the rest.
> Unless you're really impatient for a HIP Op. 50, I would suggest you wait for
> something better to come along (the Solomon Qt on Hyperion certainly isn't it;
> too bad the Apponyi Qt didn't record all of them).
> Simon
original RMCR message (http://tinyurl.com/ly7r2g)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: FideLeo on June 17, 2009, 06:45:31 AM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Y5JJ0M1NL._SS500_.jpg)

I prefer Haydn alive with a quicker pulse (why should his SQ's different from his symphonies, sonatas, piano trios in this aspect?) and so far the Apponyi has done the best job in delivering it.

edit. This new HIP release looks like a good candidate for my Haydn SQ collection, too. Anyone talked about it here yet?

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/PhantomArt/Large/84/1500284.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 17, 2009, 08:04:29 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on June 16, 2009, 02:47:28 PM
Would anyone like to comment on that funny little modern sounding upward scale in mvmt.2 of 77/1?

Silly me...not the 2nd mvmt., the 3rd mvmt. It's that funny little "modern" sounding upward scale (fourths?) in the third mvmt. (the menuet:presto)

sorry, but yea, the slow mvmt.'s nice too :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 17, 2009, 08:20:43 AM

Op.77

OK, masolino's post has seriously dampened my Festetics/Op.77 fever. I don't think I can overcome words such as "stiffness". I did notice that the Festetics' first mvmts. are waaay longer than the Amadeus set I'm currently listening too (which is good, but for these works I think there must be better out there... absolute perfection isn't hard, is it 8)?)

~~A previous poster really liked the Kodaly in Op.77. This was the version I had maaany years ago (before I cared), but, of course, I don't remember it.~~

I'm definitely looking for the version of Op.77 that makes the most of the valedectory, noble, "doyen" aspects of these SQs. I think they make such a nice balance against LvB's "upstart" Op.18

My Haydn study has fallen to Op.50, and 54-55. Are these the "rarest", or least "famous" sets? Especially Op.50 (Gurn's fav), with its f# minor SQ, seems to not to get much attention.

Also, I noticed in 54-55 the SQs in A & E major. Haydn only wrote this one E major SQ.

What are the highlights of Op.50, and 54-55?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Valentino on June 17, 2009, 08:44:46 AM

Op. 50/6 "Frog" has hit status.

And thanks, Gurn and masolino. I seem to benefit from listening to more than one recording of music I like, so QM can't be so bad in opp.76 and 77 then I guess.
In op. 20 I have QM and Hagen and I love them both.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 17, 2009, 09:27:59 AM

Quote from: masolino on June 17, 2009, 06:45:31 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Y5JJ0M1NL._SS500_.jpg)

I prefer Haydn alive with a quicker pulse (why should his SQ's different from his symphonies, sonatas, piano trios in this aspect?) and so far the Apponyi has done the best job in delivering it.

edit. This new HIP release looks like a good candidate for my Haydn SQ collection, too. Anyone talked about it here yet?

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/PhantomArt/Large/84/1500284.jpg)

No, there shouldn't be any difference, I agree. I looked around for the Apponyi version, not found, of course. But the players are right in my sweet spot. I am a big fan of the Freiburg Baroque. Damn the bad luck, why are all the good things rare and expensive? :-\

As for the Schuppanzigh, I haven't seen a word about them yet. That looks like something to investigate though, since I have heard some good things about them. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 17, 2009, 09:33:51 AM

Quote from: Valentino on June 17, 2009, 08:44:46 AM
Op. 50/6 "Frog" has hit status.

And thanks, Gurn and masolino. I seem to benefit from listening to more than one recording of music I like, so QM can't be so bad in opp.76 and 77 then I guess.
In op. 20 I have QM and Hagen and I love them both.

Yes, #6 has some very nice violin effects in it. But the entire opus is wonderful, IMO. Right from the solo cello intro of #1 (it's in Bb, snyprr, but you could like it anyway. :) ). The whole opus hits just the right balance of beauty and spunk, refinement with just the slightest hint of vulgarity. To me, this is Haydn at his best. :)

Well, I agree with that statement, although I am not exactly sure what the benefit is to me, beyond gaining a good deal of enjoyment from the variety. I have currently 4 sets of Op 50, the Tokyo, Kodaly, Nomos and Festetics. Each takes a bit different approach, but I like them all. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: ChamberNut on June 17, 2009, 09:42:46 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 17, 2009, 09:27:59 AM
As for the Schuppanzigh, I haven't seen a word about them yet. That looks like something to investigate though, since I have heard some good things about them. :)

8)

Is this like an 1820 recording or something? ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on June 17, 2009, 09:52:13 AM

I have both, the Festetics and the Mosaïques (partial) cycles, but of the latter I have just listened to the first three sets, i. e., Op. 9, 17 and 20. Therefore, I can't speak about the last quartets. But today I have listened to the Mosaïques' Op. 20 and IMO (and for my humble taste) the difference is clear in favor of the Festetics: the characterization of the pieces, the clarity of the voices (not just the first violin), the conversational sense, the soundstage, all of them have seemed to me preferable in the Festetics. But I repeat: this is only in the Op. 20 and probably a matter of personal taste.

In any case, I consider essential for future buyers to consider the description included by Que in a previous post:

Quote from: Que on June 13, 2009, 12:53:20 PM
Those who are expecting super-fast & razor-sharp excitement will be disappointed. The QF plays at times swift but can also take movements surprisingly leasurely. When things get intense, the subtle sound of the gut strings prevents edginess. The QF does not aim for refinement, which distinguishes the right approach in a Haynd SQ, which might be a different case in a Mozart SQ IMO. Refinement as such is not the name of the game in Haydn, nor is it in-your-face high strung emotions.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on June 17, 2009, 10:24:50 AM

While the Norwegian wing of GMG mob persuade Simax to get the Dausgaard/Beethoven box out soon, we should arrange for the Italian wing, if there is one, to get Arcana working on the Festetics/Haydn box, pronto.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: FideLeo on June 17, 2009, 11:25:09 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on June 17, 2009, 09:52:13 AM

In any case, I consider essential for future buyers to consider the description included by Que in a previous post:

I certainly learn one thing from Q's description: tastes differ. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on June 17, 2009, 11:44:14 AM

Quote from: masolino on June 17, 2009, 11:25:09 AM
I certainly learn one thing from Q's description: tastes differ. :)

Absolutely, but you already knew that. ;D ;)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on June 17, 2009, 12:11:58 PM

Quote from: Valentino on June 17, 2009, 08:44:46 AM

In op. 20 I have QM

Then you have the best.

I wasn't wild about the QM or QF op. 77, but the Quatuor Mosaique op. 76 is excellent. Amazing intonation, power when needed, and a terrific studio sound.

It's strange though: I pull out the Kodaly most for 76 and 77.

Hey, if you haven't yet, check out the Endellion cheap-o twofer, opps. 54 and 74. Crisp playing with modern instruments and sound. Great stuff, you won't regret spinning it!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 17, 2009, 12:48:21 PM

Quote from: AndyD. on June 17, 2009, 12:11:58 PM

Hey, if you haven't yet, check out the Endellion cheap-o twofer, opps. 54 and 74. Crisp playing with modern instruments and sound. Great stuff, you won't regret spinning it!

I was going to get around to mentioning that one of these days, when those 2 opera were raised. I quite agree with you, the only problem is that was all they did. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Valentino on June 17, 2009, 01:03:04 PM

I like that Endellion a lot.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 17, 2009, 01:55:09 PM

Gurn, I'd noticed that Nomos set and was going to ask about it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on June 17, 2009, 03:05:58 PM

Quote from: Valentino on June 17, 2009, 01:03:04 PM
I like that Endellion a lot.

The opus 54, no. 2 is devastatingly good. Many folks talk about Haydn being too light...there are plenty of moments scattered throughout his works of a spine-chilling nature.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 17, 2009, 03:09:59 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on June 17, 2009, 01:55:09 PM
Gurn, I'd noticed that Nomos set and was going to ask about it.

Very worthwhile. Other than the Kodaly, you'll be pressed to find a reasonably priced Op 50, and this one is not only that, but it is very nicely played as well. I like that they aren't doing it as a cookie-cutter version of what everyone else is doing, it's one you can pick out in a crowd (if there WAS a crowd :-\ ) :)

8)

(PS - modern instruments, but no problem)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: FideLeo on June 17, 2009, 06:55:04 PM

Quote from: Que on June 17, 2009, 11:44:14 AM
Absolutely, but you already knew that. ;D ;)

Q

Oh yes, and in my opinion that's what is essential for all potential collectors to know, not anyone's description of some recorded music. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on June 17, 2009, 08:19:41 PM

Quote from: masolino on June 17, 2009, 06:55:04 PM
Oh yes, and in my opinion that's what is essential for all potential collectors to know, not anyone's description of some recorded music. :)

Well, the only thing that is really essential is enjoying the music itself, the rest is all means to that end. I'm interested in anyone's opinions/descriptions, including made by those with a different taste. I've read the opinion/descriptions you quoted from rmcr with great interest... 8)

Are the Festetics to laid back for your taste? Or haven't you heard them yet? If the latter is he case, note that I posted links to samples a page back. :)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 17, 2009, 10:07:17 PM

Quote from: Valentino on June 17, 2009, 01:03:04 PM
I like that Endellion a lot.

Quote from: AndyD. on June 17, 2009, 03:05:58 PM
The opus 54, no. 2 is devastatingly good. Many folks talk about Haydn being too light...there are plenty of moments scattered throughout his works of a spine-chilling nature.

Op.54 No.2 in C major

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 17, 2009, 03:09:59 PM
Very worthwhile. Other than the Kodaly, you'll be pressed to find a reasonably priced Op 50, and this one is not only that, but it is very nicely played as well. I like that they aren't doing it as a cookie-cutter version of what everyone else is doing, it's one you can pick out in a crowd (if there WAS a crowd :-\ ) :)(PS - modern instruments, but no problem)

The Tatrai doo keep coming up in hushed tones around here.

Quote from: masolino on June 17, 2009, 06:55:04 PM
Oh yes, and in my opinion that's what is essential for all potential collectors to know, not anyone's description of some recorded music. :)

Quote from: Que on June 17, 2009, 08:19:41 PM
Well, the only thing that is really essential is enjoying the music itself, the rest is all means to that end. I'm interested in anyone's opinions/descriptions, including made by those with a different taste. I've read the opinion/descriptions you quoted from rmcr with great interest... 8)

Are the Festetics to laid back for your taste? Or haven't you heard them yet? If the latter is he case, note that I posted links to samples a page back. :)

Q

Wisdom is learning from other people's mistakes

I count on you guys to give me no bias/no bull... fair and balanced... haha... you know...

I would neeever , God willing, give bad cd!

Haydn SQs are the perfect forum to have this discussion. I mean, between all the freaks here, we've GOT to have this subject at least half way covered, right?

If I have a question, which, as you know, I've had many, I try to make my questions as precise as to my knowledge and vocab, so that I can fish for certain answers to certain questions. I expect you all intelligent people with all your combined Haydn SQ cds are going to cross each other (as you've done here in the last page or so), and so cause an explosion of knowlege as is now the case!

I don't want opinions, I want facts. If I ask you what's the most Metal/HardCore version of 76/2, "Fifths", I expect that you know what I mean, and would promptly steer me towards the Arditti (haha ::)...wouldn't THAT be something?!? :o)...no...who would you steer me towards?

The most awesome performance, period (well, I always like alternative choices, too :)). So, if that means QM, QF, Aeolian, Angeles, Tatrai, Lindsay, ABQ, your grampa's string quartet... I don't care; but, I WILL TRUST YOU.

So, getting back to Op.77.

AndyD. seemed to understand my question, and pulled out an odd choice (one might think). But then, other people, with different collections, chimed in, and in no time we had lots and lots of great ideas boppin around. Perhaps we all agree that we want what's best for Op.77, no? If QM or QF just don't cut it in this particular set, or if some off-the-wall SQ like the Hagen, Kodaly, or Tatrai juuust clinch it, well, then I expect you all to have the heart to tell me the unvarnished truth.

If I ask, What's the "mellowest" 76/2 "Fifths"?...you know what I mean?

So, AndyD. thinks the Kodaly might have a claim at the "mostest" Op.77, but I have not heard any other contenders voiced other than that both QM and QF might not have been preferred.

Seriously, you all think Op.77 is special, no? Is AndyD. right? Doesn't anyone believe in the perfect performance? Does it get no betta than the Kodaly in Op.77?

I don't mean to sound strident, sorry, ha...just excited bout Haydn SQs.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 17, 2009, 10:10:01 PM

THAT's why I find 50, 54 & 55 so interesting, because not everyone has recorded those, which leaves a lot of "off brand" quartets to choose from (like the Nomos and Endellion).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 17, 2009, 10:20:03 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 17, 2009, 03:09:59 PM
Very worthwhile. Other than the Kodaly, you'll be pressed to find a reasonably priced Op 50, and this one is not only that, but it is very nicely played as well. I like that they aren't doing it as a cookie-cutter version of what everyone else is doing, it's one you can pick out in a crowd (if there WAS a crowd :-\ )

The Nomos Op.50 is just the kind of dark horse contender I'm normally attracted to. I noticed that Op.55 has the fewest, and strangest, alternatives. There is a new Finnish? group called META4?, oh, and I forgot the label (fairly popular one), and they've been winning all these competitions, and they debut with Haydn Op.55!!!

How bout that? Vjeck it out!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on June 18, 2009, 12:04:02 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on June 17, 2009, 10:20:03 PM
The Nomos Op.50 is just the kind of dark horse contender I'm normally attracted to. I noticed that Op.55 has the fewest, and strangest, alternatives. There is a new Finnish? group called META4?, oh, and I forgot the label (fairly popular one), and they've been winning all these competitions, and they debut with Haydn Op.55!!!

How bout that? Vjeck it out!

Your enthusiasm is admirable, but, really, a debut cd with Haydn string quartets is not a audacious move.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on June 18, 2009, 12:37:06 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on June 17, 2009, 10:20:03 PM
The Nomos Op.50 is just the kind of dark horse contender I'm normally attracted to. I noticed that Op.55 has the fewest, and strangest, alternatives. There is a new Finnish? group called META4?, oh, and I forgot the label (fairly popular one), and they've been winning all these competitions, and they debut with Haydn Op.55!!!

How bout that? Vjeck it out!

The label for which META 4 have recorded their Haydn is Haenssler Classics. Of course Amazon's listing is so shitty again, that you can't find it unless you modify the German URL accordingly.

[It's not audacious, per se... not in the Haydn anniversary year. And it's been done by the Jerusalem Quartet (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001CCHPM6/goodmusicguide-20), the Minetti Quartet (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001TD1XPI/goodmusicguide-20), Quatuor Ebene (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000E97XWK/goodmusicguide-20)... (all fantastic recordings, btw.) and yet, in a subtle way, it's daring just because Haydn isn't a smash hit, usually, and op.55 least of all.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518kHQ9hGlL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Haydn, String Quartets op.55
META 4
Haenssler Classic (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0021R51E0/goodmusicguide-20)
That's the link for the US.

The link for the UK is here (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0021R51E0/nectarandambrUK-21), for France here (http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0021R51E0/nectarandambrFR-21), for Germany here (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0021R51E0/nectarandambr-21).

It's very good stuff, if not quite as immediately outstanding as the Mintetti Quartet disc (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=553). I've only so far compared it to the Buchberger and Kodaly and it's not a flattering comparison for the latter, I'm afraid... but if to chose among Buchberger and Kodaly in op.55, I'd prefer the Kodaly, still, by a small margin. With the Buchberger they just sound like complete run-throughs.

Why haven't Quatuor Mosaiques not recorded those yet? >:(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Valentino on June 18, 2009, 12:47:51 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on June 17, 2009, 10:07:17 PM
I don't want opinions, I want facts. If I ask you what's the most Metal/HardCore version of 76/2, "Fifths", I expect that you know what I mean, and would promptly steer me towards the Arditti (haha ::)...wouldn't THAT be something?!? :o)...no...who would you steer me towards?

Hagen Quartett. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on June 18, 2009, 01:49:26 AM

Quote from: Valentino on June 18, 2009, 12:47:51 AM
Hagen Quartett. 8)

The Hagen and Arditti are both really good. But I sold those and kept the QM and Kodaly for op. 76. For the "Fifths", the QM is more dynamics-involved: light and shade are very emphasized. So in a way, the QM is more "heavy" because there's more contrast.

But, for kick-you-in-the-head-dramatics-slash-emphasis-on-crushing-impact, the Kodaly is your heavy metal "Fifths" of choice.

And this is coming from a a heavy metal fanatic.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: FideLeo on June 18, 2009, 02:06:34 AM

Quote from: Que on June 17, 2009, 08:19:41 PM
Well, the only thing that is really essential is enjoying the music itself, the rest is all means to that end. I'm interested in anyone's opinions/descriptions, including made by those with a different taste.

Potential collectors will always go beyond "enjoying the music itself" - they are buyers in the market. It is important not to "buy" others' opinion double quick -- indeed, depending on differences in taste, one's meal can be another's poison. I don't know about you, but (pace Antoine) is reading other's opinions/descriptions essential to me as a collector? Far from it, I'd say :)

Quote
Are the Festetics to laid back for your taste? Or haven't you heard them yet? If the latter is he case, note that I posted links to samples a page back. :)

If you have read my earlier posts in this thread, you'd know that I had bought quite a few of them when they first went on market. Even at Berkshire Outlet prices, I'd still prefer to hear Haydn done differently.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: prémont on June 18, 2009, 02:20:24 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on June 17, 2009, 10:07:17 PM
Wisdom is learning from other people's mistakes

No, without learning from your own mistakes, you will never get wise.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: FideLeo on June 18, 2009, 02:42:16 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 17, 2009, 09:27:59 AM

As for the Schuppanzigh, I haven't seen a word about them yet. That looks like something to investigate though, since I have heard some good things about them. :)

I have enjoyed their recordings of Beethoven and Brunetti, so the Haydn also looks promising to me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 18, 2009, 04:26:34 AM

Quote from: masolino on June 18, 2009, 02:42:16 AM
I have enjoyed their recordings of Beethoven and Brunetti, so the Haydn also looks promising to me.

Yeah, that's a good basis to go by. When that Brunetti disk got posted and praised in The Corner a few weeks bach, it was actually the first time I had heard of The New Schuppanzigh Quartet. Guess I would be remiss not to make an investment in them. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on June 18, 2009, 07:36:12 AM

Quote from: masolino on June 18, 2009, 02:06:34 AM
Potential collectors will always go beyond "enjoying the music itself" - they are buyers in the market. It is important not to "buy" others' opinion double quick -- indeed, depending on differences in taste, one's meal can be another's poison. I don't know about you, but (pace Antoine) is reading other's opinions/descriptions essential to me as a collector? Far from it, I'd say :)

If you have read my earlier posts in this thread, you'd know that I had bought quite a few of them when they first went on market. Even at Berkshire Outlet prices, I'd still prefer to hear Haydn done differently.

I believe that you are confusing opinions and descriptions, Masolino. I recommended the description by Que, not his opinion (well-known in any case). I can perfectly agree with your description about something, but not about your opinion on the thing itself. For instance, some days ago you described the Minkowski's version of Mass in B Minor like "sensual" and "dramatic" and probably that is an accurate description of that version. Another thing is that I don't consider those characteristics suitable for a JSB mass... But it's my opinion, not a description. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 18, 2009, 09:33:57 AM

This is just the kind of exchange of ideas that I was talking about.

Already there are two interesting choices for the "Fifths": Hagen & Kodaly. I assumed the Hagen here, but the Kodaly? The sweet, little ole Kodaly??? Very interesting. I would have thought the Emerson (or Hagen), with their reputation for spitting razors, would have clinched it. Very interesting. Keep it up.

Quote from: jlaurson on June 18, 2009, 12:37:06 AM
It's very good stuff, if not quite as immediately outstanding as the Mintetti Quartet disc (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=553). I've only so far compared it to the Buchberger and Kodaly and it's not a flattering comparison for the latter, I'm afraid... but if to chose among Buchberger and Kodaly in op.55, I'd prefer the Kodaly, still, by a small margin. With the Buchberger they just sound like complete run-throughs.

"Immediately outstanding" is the kind of recording I'm always looking for, haha!!! Op.55 isn't exactly swimming in "interesting" or "off beat" choices, but I will take this review seriously and probably skip the META4 (not to mention the Buchberger and Kodaly). Right now, the Lindsays are the cheapest $$$ on Amazon, but, of course, that is like taking your life in your hands. I was really pleased with their 20/2,5,6, but their Op.54 got a really scathing review on Amazon.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 18, 2009, 09:38:37 AM

Back to Op.77:

The reason I was pushing this was because there is a Festetics/Op.77 coming up on Ebay Friday morning. Of course I was planning on getting it, but, after taking some of these "opinion/descriptions" under consideration, I'm passing on it. So, if anyone's in the market.

But I was checking out Op.77 last night, and found some interesting choices that no one has mentioned:

L'Archibudelli/Sony

Smithson/EMI

Takacs/Decca

What of these? The L'Archibudelli was getting raves.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 18, 2009, 09:39:49 AM

Plus, that Smithson/EMI Op.77 seems to have come out of no where.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: ChamberNut on June 18, 2009, 09:40:36 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on June 18, 2009, 09:38:37 AM
But I was checking out Op.77 last night, and found some interesting choices that no one has mentioned:

L'Archibudelli/Sony

I don't really enjoy it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on June 18, 2009, 09:40:55 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on June 18, 2009, 09:38:37 AM

Takacs/Decca

The Takacs is good, there's some bite there. The recording was a tiny bit reverb-y for me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 18, 2009, 10:24:24 AM

Oh, what a good boy am I!

I just picked up the Endellion/Op.54 for $.90!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on June 18, 2009, 11:03:22 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on June 18, 2009, 10:24:24 AM
Oh, what a good boy am I!

I just picked up the Endellion/Op.54 for $.90!

Oh I'm guessing you will be very happy.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on June 18, 2009, 11:36:08 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on June 18, 2009, 09:38:37 AM
Back to Op.77:

The reason I was pushing this was because there is a Festetics/Op.77 coming up on Ebay Friday morning. Of course I was planning on getting it, but, after taking some of these "opinion/descriptions" under consideration, I'm passing on it. So, if anyone's in the market.

And how do you know if that was the right decison (for you)? ::)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 18, 2009, 11:51:21 AM

Quote from: AndyD. on June 18, 2009, 11:03:22 AM

Oh I'm guessing you will be very happy.

I even paid more than that for the Caspar de Salo Op 64! :o :o

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 18, 2009, 11:58:03 AM

Quote from: Que on June 18, 2009, 11:36:08 AM
And how do you know if that was the right decison (for you)? ::)

Q

Well, of course now I've let the cat out of the bag. Sure, where are you going to get ANY Festetics for under $10?

But that comparison between QM and QF a few posts back made me wary. When any reviewer says "from the first notes you can tell", I generally take note (he said "stiff"). I thought L'Archidubelli was the answer, but...

Quote from: ChamberNut on June 18, 2009, 09:40:36 AM
I don't really enjoy it.

Besides AndyD., no one else has come forward with any real HITS. It seems like EVERYONE has a very particular discography, to the point where comparisons seem to be scattershot. I guess I was under the impression that all you cd addicts had 5 versions of every set.

How bout you Q? In Op.77? Three picks. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 18, 2009, 12:06:15 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on June 18, 2009, 11:58:03 AM

How bout you Q? In Op.77? Three picks. ;D

L'Archibudelli
QF
QM
Kodaly

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: FideLeo on June 18, 2009, 06:16:22 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on June 18, 2009, 07:36:12 AM
I believe that you are confusing opinions and descriptions, Masolino. I recommended the description by Que, not his opinion (well-known in any case). I can perfectly agree with your description about something, but not about your opinion on the thing itself. For instance, some days ago you described the Minkowski's version of Mass in B Minor like "sensual" and "dramatic" and probably that is an accurate description of that version. Another thing is that I don't consider those characteristics suitable for a JSB mass... But it's my opinion, not a description. :)

But the unfortunate casual descriptions can be coloured by one's subjective opinions on the matter. (For example, what is the "tortured reasoning" in the Que-description you deemed essential, anyway? Is that an opinion or a description?) So I am, ultimately, NOT confusing opinions and descriptions, to the extent that descriptions of aesthetic experiences can be (and often are) fuzzy, impressionistic, and peppered with opinions. Readers beware! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on June 18, 2009, 08:37:31 PM

Quote from: masolino on June 18, 2009, 06:16:22 PM
But the unfortunate casual descriptions can be coloured by one's subjective opinions on the matter. (For example, what is the "tortured reasoning" in the Que-description you deemed essential, anyway? Is that an opinion or a description?) So I am, ultimately, NOT confusing opinions and descriptions, to the extent that descriptions of aesthetic experiences can be (and often are) fuzzy, impressionistic, and peppered with opinions. Readers beware! :D

IMO, it wouldn't be elegant or polite to follow reasoning about a post written by another contributor, although your last post suggests me one or two replies.

I'm sure you share this "opinion", Masolino. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: FideLeo on June 18, 2009, 09:14:50 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on June 18, 2009, 08:37:31 PM
IMO, it wouldn't be elegant or polite to follow reasoning about a post written by another contributor, although your last post suggests me one or two replies.

I'm sure you share this "opinion", Masolino. :)

Excuse me, but "tortured reasoning" is a direct quote from the description which Que quoted and which you deemed so essential to read, not my evaluation of either your or Que's words. So what's not elegant or polite about my response again? :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on June 18, 2009, 09:41:05 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on June 18, 2009, 11:58:03 AM
Well, of course now I've let the cat out of the bag. Sure, where are you going to get ANY Festetics for under $10?

But that comparison between QM and QF a few posts back made me wary. When any reviewer says "from the first notes you can tell", I generally take note (he said "stiff"). I thought L'Archidubelli was the answer, but...

Well, my point is: sure, you can take note of opinions. But you seemed turned off on a recording quite easily without listening/sampling for yourself to make up you own mind. As far as I can see opinions on the QF are quite divided here.

That quote was from "a" poster on a Google group btw, though I'm not suggesting that the opinion of a "reviewer" counts more than the opinion of anybody else. ::) We're all reviewers, though some opinions are more interesting than others.

About the "stiffness" mentioned: the Festetics take quite "straight" tempi - which is absolutely right in Haydn IMO - but their phrasing is anything but stiff.

Quote from: masolino on June 18, 2009, 06:16:22 PM
(...) what is the "tortured reasoning" in the Que-description you deemed essential, anyway? (...)

Quote from: masolino on June 18, 2009, 09:14:50 PM
Excuse me, but "tortured reasoning" is a direct quote from the description which Que quoted and which you deemed so essential to read, not my evaluation of either your or Que's words.

Well masolino, it does seem that there was some slight confusion about your attribution of that phrase ("tortured reasoning"). :)
And where does it come from anyway? I can't see it being quoted by either of us! ::)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: FideLeo on June 19, 2009, 01:21:17 AM

Quote from: Que on June 18, 2009, 09:41:05 PM
And where does it come from anyway? I can't see it being quoted by either of us! ::)

Try Reply n. 140 in this thread, towards the bottom? It was indeed Antoine's quote (from someone
named Pez) (therefore not my invention), but I am wrong to have associated those words with you.
Apologies to you for the confusion!

I do agree with the point that the ultimate test is listening for oneself. There are therefore no
essential or must-read descriptions as such in music or art appreciation since, to our experience,
no metaphors can be as real as the actual work itself.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on June 19, 2009, 05:20:08 AM

Quote from: masolino on June 19, 2009, 01:21:17 AM
I do agree with the point that the ultimate test is listening for oneself. There are therefore no essential or must-read descriptions as such in music or art appreciation since, to our experience,
no metaphors can be as real as the actual work itself.

It´s patently obvious and nobody here -not me, at least- have argued that descriptions can replace the listeninig for oneself. It´s an imaginary debate.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: FideLeo on June 19, 2009, 05:30:25 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on June 19, 2009, 05:20:08 AM
It´s patently obvious and nobody here -not me, at least- have argued that descriptions can replace the listeninig for oneself. It´s an imaginary debate.

So what's so "essential" about reading the quote from Q that you proposed to all future buyers?

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on June 17, 2009, 09:52:13 AM

In any case, I consider essential for future buyers to consider the description included by Que in a previous post:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on June 19, 2009, 06:09:42 AM

Quote from: masolino on June 19, 2009, 05:30:25 AM
So what's so "essential" about reading the quote from Q that you proposed to all future buyers?

"Essential" like is essential to know a good description of any product before to buy. Information for people who doesn't own the product yet, but who is considering it. Not a replacement for the thing itself, but an extremely accurate description (although not your quotation) to decide (or not) the buying.

Word: this is my last post in this slightly sophistic topic. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 19, 2009, 08:14:03 AM

Well, I slept throught the Festetics auction ::).

I can't really understand what you all have been "arguing" about for the last page? I mean, not everyone has the $$$ to "check it out for themselves". That's why I try to rely on "intelligent" "reviews". Yes, I'm putting quotes around everything, now, haha.

I've been warming up to Op.33 No.3 "The Bird". What are your Op.33 favs (SQs, not performances)?

I noticed that the Op.33 SQs are a lot shorter than Op.20. (27min vs 17min, etc.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on June 19, 2009, 09:24:37 AM

Quote from: masolino on June 19, 2009, 01:21:17 AM
Try Reply n. 140 in this thread, towards the bottom? It was indeed Antoine's quote (from someone
named Pez) (therefore not my invention), but I am wrong to have associated those words with you.
Apologies to you for the confusion!

Thanks, and I'm glad that I'm off the hook! ;D

Quote from: snyprrr on June 19, 2009, 08:14:03 AM
I can't really understand what you all have been "arguing" about for the last page? I mean, not everyone has the $$$ to "check it out for themselves".

And what - and this is the very last time I'm mentioning this (to you) again ::) - about the FREE samples I've uploaded (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3866.msg320050.html#msg320050) for everyone to try the performances by the Festetics? 8)

And what about some quotes of other "intelligent" reviews of that very same QF Haydn opus 50 set discussed in that quote from the google group posted by masolino? (You know, the one about the "stiffness"? 8) ?

QuoteThe Festetics give brilliant performances. They develop a texture that carries the music along, both in the slow movements and in the faster ones. There is real joy in some of the more cheerful sections, such as the finale of the first quartet, a vivace with a delightfully juvenile tone.

Full review at MusicWeb. (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classRev/2002/Jun02/Haydn_Festetics.htm)

Or:

Quote...the Festetics' consummately elegant, supremely sweet readings for Arcana.

From the simply stated Adagio cantabile of the second quartet to the acerbic Finale of the sixth, the players hit their target dead on. They don't become overwrought, nor are they cold; and they play each note as if it truly matters.

Full review at Classicstoday. (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=5598)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on June 20, 2009, 01:50:29 AM

Quote from: SonicMan on June 04, 2009, 06:30:09 AM
Piano Concertos - anything new or comments on what is available currently?

Nearly 2 yrs ago in this thread, Q posted the above but there seem to be little response; but since that time, I've greatly expanded my Haydn collection w/ box sets, including the complete symphonies, baryton works, et al; however, I still have just one disc of piano concertos - so are these compositions worth obtaining in larger numbers?

Got this reissue of the Staier/ Von der Goltz, a favourite (forte)pianist and a favourite conductor.

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/30/1050630.jpg)

Impressions after a few spins. Wonderful performances: very lucid, elegant and sophisticated but nonetheless quite pointed and well articulated, with meticulously detailed and well thought-through phrasing by Staier who plays a copy after Walter, which sounds very good indeed. Very typical for Staier's general style IMO - this is a "thinker's" performance. Recording is spacious but not too resonant with a good focus on the fortepiano, matching the performances in transparency. I haven't heard the Brautigam other than in samples but I'd expect his performances with Mortensen to have more "umph" and to be more driven. Anybody cares to comment? :)

Anyway: this is warmly recommended! :)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 20, 2009, 07:37:52 AM

I had mentioned the Smithson SQ as I saw it, but I didn't know that they were HIP, or that it was Jaap's SQ. That makes 4 (four) HIPs for Op.77 (QM, FQ, L'Archibudelli, Smithson).

Any thoughts on Jaap's Smithson? They were one of the first (early '90s), no?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bunny on June 20, 2009, 08:15:05 AM

Both L'Archibudelli and the Smithson were quartets that originated with the recordings commissioned by the Smithsonian Institute to showcase the instruments in its collection. The Smithson qt. And Smithson Players still record under the leadership of the current curator of the historic musical instruments collection of the Smithsonian, Kenneth Slowik who seems to be the exclusive player of the Servais Stradavarius (cello). I don't believe Bijlsma or Schroeder record for the Smithsonian anymore.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 20, 2009, 09:43:00 AM

That's very interesting. I'm afraid if I ask about different "schools" of HIP SQ playing (QM, QF, Archi-, Smith-), that will derail this Haydn talk. Do they all have the same "basic" approach, or are there radically differing points of entry?

If that question could be answered by comparing all four HIP Op.77s, that would be an interesting "review". Who has the slowest basic speeds, or are they all of similar length? Do they all play "slower" than modern SQs? This is the reason why I've been harping ONLY on Op.77: because these two valedectory (and stately) SQs generally aren't as "quick" as some other Haydn SQs, and as such might be easier for me to appreciate the more "stately" mode of playing exhibited by the HIP movement?

And also because Op.77 seems to be the one with the most HIP choices. The Smithson really intrigues me, but I would like some confirmation.

I'm trying not to feel guilty about skipping that Festetics Op.77 auction. :-[

OCD-be gone!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on June 20, 2009, 10:29:33 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on June 20, 2009, 07:37:52 AM
I had mentioned the Smithson SQ as I saw it, but I didn't know that they were HIP, or that it was Jaap's SQ. That makes 4 (four) HIPs for Op.77 (QM, FQ, L'Archibudelli, Smithson).

Hi, snyprr. I own another HIP version by the Kuijken String Quartet: Sigiswald Kuijken, violin (Giovanni Grancino, Milano ca. 1700); François Fernandez, violin (Bart Visser, after Rombous, 1992); Marleen Thiers, viola (anonymous, North-Italy, end 17th century) and Wieland Kuijken, violoncello (attributed to Andrea Amatti, Cremona ca. 1570).

Contents:

I-IV: String Quartet, Op.77 No.1
I. Allegro moderato 6:47
II. Adagio 7:11
III. Menuetto; Presto 4:44
IV. Finale; Presto 5:56

V-VIII: String Quartet, Op.77 No.2
Allegro moderato 7.25
Menuetto presto 4.42
Andante 6.56
Finale vivace assai 6.04

IX-X: String Quartet, Op.103
IX. Andante graciozo 6.22
X. Menuetto; Ma non troppo presto 5:17

Total time: 61:24

DENON Aliare, 2006

Recorded: Doopsgezinde Kerk, Haarlem, The Netherlands, May 4-6, November 20, 1998

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 20, 2009, 10:51:01 AM

Just updating my current Haydn SQ survey ("*" indicates library):

Op.20: Mosaiques*
Op.20/2,5,6: Lindsays

Op.33/3,4,6: Kodaly*

Op.54/Endellion

Opp. 71, 74, 76, 77: Amadeus*
Op.76/4-6: Kodaly*
Op.76/4 + ?: Amati?*

"Rider"/"Emperor": Alban Berg

This is quite a motley crew, but some of the comparisons have been relevatory (QM vs Lindsay). The most exciting thing for me is the "lone wolf" String Quartet groups that only record one or two sets. Op.77 has four HIP contenders, which I find daunting, but...

I'm still curious about the Smithson SQ(Jaap Schroeder) in 54/77.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 20, 2009, 04:50:05 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on June 08, 2009, 08:36:56 AM
Gurn - LOL! ;D So, I'm to be the Guinea Pig! ;) :D However, I am tempted, but will give the Brautigam the first try! Dave :)

(http://bioweb.uwlax.edu/bio203/s2008/nickel_sara/guinea-pig.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/569123991_QNsna-M.jpg)

Today - the Brautigam disc of PCs just arrived - did a quick listen and enjoyed tremendously! But, I've not decided on purchase of the larger set as discussed in a previous post - price is just not right for me @ the moment! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 20, 2009, 04:58:04 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on June 20, 2009, 04:50:05 PM
Today - the Brautigam disc of PCs just arrived - did a quick listen and enjoyed tremendously! But, I've not decided on purchase of the larger set as discussed in a previous post - price is just not right for me @ the moment! :D

Yeah, thought you would like that, Dave. It's a really fine disk. Well, I'll just wait out the other one. I read a nice review at Arkiv of the "Big Box" and the guy says that the keyboard concertos are among the best in the box, so if I finally decide to pull the trigger on it, I'll have that covered (again...). :D

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Chiara Banchini - Ensemble 415 - Boccherini Op 23 #5 Sextet in D for Strings 2nd mvmt - Allegro brioso assai

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: FideLeo on June 20, 2009, 08:24:41 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on June 19, 2009, 06:09:42 AM
"Essential" like is essential to know a good description of any product before to buy. Information for people who doesn't own the product yet, but who is considering it. Not a replacement for the thing itself, but an extremely accurate description (although not your quotation) to decide (or not) the buying.

What an essentialist statement. ;) "Extremely accurate." So says you.

My last post in this thread to argue over your loose semantics as well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: FideLeo on June 20, 2009, 09:22:04 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on June 20, 2009, 09:43:00 AM
That's very interesting. I'm afraid if I ask about different "schools" of HIP SQ playing (QM, QF, Archi-, Smith-), that will derail this Haydn talk. Do they all have the same "basic" approach, or are there radically differing points of entry?

Hmm, you are leaving the Brits out of the comparison, who were the first plays in the field so to speak :)

The Salomon Quartet had recorded quite a bit of Haydn over the years, including Opp.77 and 103, for Hyperion but they don't seem to get much mention in discussions about HIP SQ playing these days. To me, the key reason for their relative neglected status is that the group usually gives less inflected performances when compared to the later comers, and local inflections count as much as tempi in music of this period. To my ears again the Festetics are simply not as articulate as the Mosaiques, checked phrase by phrase, even if the basic tempi they use are not that much different.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on June 21, 2009, 12:07:00 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 20, 2009, 04:58:04 PM
Yeah, thought you would like that, Dave. It's a really fine disk. Well, I'll just wait out the other one. I read a nice review at Arkiv of the "Big Box" and the guy says that the keyboard concertos are among the best in the box, so if I finally decide to pull the trigger on it, I'll have that covered (again...). :D

WOW! :o :)
Who are doing the keyboard concertos in that set BTW? :)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 21, 2009, 03:24:07 AM

Quote from: Que on June 21, 2009, 12:07:00 AM
WOW! :o :)
Who are doing the keyboard concertos in that set BTW? :)

Q

The piano concertos (Hob XIII:11, 4, and 3) and violin concertos (Hob VIIa:1, 4, and 2) are played by a gorgeous period-instrument ensemble, L'Arte dell'Arco. Jolanda Violante's fortepiano is equally lovely, and she delivers spirited, sensitive performances. Her phrasing is individual enough to spark interest but never too much so, and she adds her own touches to the cadenzas. The violin concertos are more problematical. Right from the opening ritornello, the phrasing is stiff and square, and yet the tonal beauties of the ensemble and of Federcio Guglielmi's 1757 Gennaro Gagliano violin are exquisite. There is more life and sunshine in the recent Naxos recordings (Fanfare 32:1), even though the modern instruments of the Cologne Chamber Orchestra are less appealing. The two issues complement each other.

The Organ Concertos (Hob XVII:1, 2, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 10) are played by Anton Holzapfel, with Ensemble Dolce Risonanza (an aptly named period-instruments ensemble) led by Florian Wieninger. The trumpets and drums of two C-Major concertos ring out gloriously in the extremely live acoustics of churches in Vienna and Eisenstadt—we are not told what was recorded in which church. All the performances are excellent. Filling out these two CDs are the Double Concerto for Violin and Organ, Hob XVII:6, with Susanne Sholz joining the performers, and—a special delight—13 brief pieces for flute-clock (Hob XIX), played by Holzapfel with convincing flute and wind stops.

I have no problem plugging in my Walffisch VC's in the appropriate place... :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Czech PO \ Kletzki - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 1st mvmt - Allegro, ma non troppo, un poco maestoso

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 21, 2009, 10:58:58 AM

Amadeus SQ/Haydn Op.77:

No.1

Allegro moderato 5:45
Adagio 6:02
Menuet. Presto 4:00
Finale.Presto 4:03

No.2

Allegro moderato 5:40
Menuet. Presto 4:28
Andante 6:58
Finale. Vivace assai

Op.103

Andante grazioso 5:20
Menuetto ma non troppo Presto 5:16

As you can see, there are great differences. As I recall, the Kujiken timings were similar to the Festetics, and that's why I was wondering if other HIPsters (QM, Smithson, Archibudelli, Solomon) had the same types of tempos. Anyone else like to contribute?

I don't find these Amadeus tempos "perfect". I can see where you might want to expand No.1/1 or 1/2. I did think their Menuet 1/3 could have been a touch faster, also. And so forth...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: FideLeo on June 21, 2009, 08:50:04 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on June 21, 2009, 10:58:58 AM
Amadeus SQ/Haydn Op.77:

No.1

Allegro moderato 5:45
Adagio 6:02
Menuet. Presto 4:00
Finale.Presto 4:03

No.2

Allegro moderato 5:40
Menuet. Presto 4:28
Andante 6:58
Finale. Vivace assai

Op.103

Andante grazioso 5:20
Menuetto ma non troppo Presto 5:16

As you can see, there are great differences. As I recall, the Kujiken timings were similar to the Festetics, and that's why I was wondering if other HIPsters (QM, Smithson, Archibudelli, Solomon) had the same types of tempos. Anyone else like to contribute?

I don't find these Amadeus tempos "perfect". I can see where you might want to expand No.1/1 or 1/2. I did think their Menuet 1/3 could have been a touch faster, also. And so forth...

The several "allegro moderato's" in this music really can seem inhibiting if
one wants to do it faster than usual. At least in this specific case,
I suggest main differences, even for HIP emsembles, will have to
be made in other departments than the basic pulse.

Ex. 1 the new HIP Edding Quartet recording of this music
(data taken from emusic; not sure how many repeats are observed)

String Quartets No. 1 in G Major, Op. 77: Allegro moderato
Composer: Franz Joseph Haydn
6:54
02.
String Quartets No. 1 in G Major, Op. 77: Adagio
Composer: Franz Joseph Haydn
6:41
03.
String Quartets No. 1 in G Major, Op. 77: Menuetto
Composer: Franz Joseph Haydn
3:47
04.
String Quartets No. 1 in G Major, Op. 77: Finale
Composer: Franz Joseph Haydn
4:45
05.
String Quartets No. 2 in F Major, Op. 77: Allegro moderato
Composer: Franz Joseph Haydn
7:07
06.
String Quartets No. 2 in F Major, Op. 77: Menuetto
Composer: Franz Joseph Haydn
4:28
07.
String Quartets No. 2 in F Major, Op. 77: Andante
Composer: Franz Joseph Haydn
8:32
08.
String Quartets No. 2 in F Major, Op. 77: Finale
Composer: Franz Joseph Haydn
5:03
09.
String Quartets, Op. 103: Andante grazioso
Composer: Franz Joseph Haydn
5:32
10.
String Quartets, Op. 103: Menuetto ma non troppo presto
Composer: Franz Joseph Haydn
4:26

Ex. 2 Kuijken Qt
Op. 77/1
6: 49
7: 15
4: 47
6: 02

Op. 77/2
7: 27
4: 45
6: 59
6: 10

Op. 103
6: 25
5: 18

Assuming that Edding does the same repeats as the Kuijken, major discrepancies
between them only happen in the finales of Op 77 and in both movements of Op. 103.

I can supply QM's data later after I get out of the bed ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on June 22, 2009, 07:39:22 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on June 18, 2009, 07:36:12 AM
I believe that you are confusing opinions and descriptions, Masolino. I recommended the description by Que, not his opinion (well-known in any case). I can perfectly agree with your description about something, but not about your opinion on the thing itself. For instance, some days ago you described the Minkowski's version of Mass in B Minor like "sensual" and "dramatic" and probably that is an accurate description of that version. Another thing is that I don't consider those characteristics suitable for a JSB mass... But it's my opinion, not a description. :)

Were we talking about Minkowski's Mass in B Minor?

The first part of the interview with Minkowski (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=574) (about Bach) is up on WETA now.

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=574 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=574)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: FideLeo on June 22, 2009, 09:01:41 AM

Quote from: masolino on June 21, 2009, 08:50:04 PM
I can supply QM's data later after I get out of the bed ;)

Quatuor Mosaiques

Op. 77/1

7:17
7:22
3:53
5:27

Op. 77/2

7:24
4:25
9:29
5:35

Op. 103

5:30
4:44

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 22, 2009, 11:29:44 AM

Were the old Gabrieli on Chandos HIP? The London Quartet?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 22, 2009, 11:34:28 AM

The HIP 77s:

Quatour Mosaiques
Quatour Festetics
L'Archibudelli
Smithson Quartet
Solomon Quartet
Kujiken Quartet

Gabrieli?
London?

That's quite a tradition building, huh?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 22, 2009, 12:05:08 PM

I forgot about "repeats". Is every mvmt. subject to them? There are such wide margins of tempo.

In the Finale. Presto of 77/1, the Amadeus are 4:03 and the Kujiken 6:02!!! In the Finale. Vivace assai of 77/2 the Amadeus are 4:27 and the Kujiken are 6:10.

Judging by the Amadeus, IMHO, both finales should, IMHO, be either just a tiny tiny smidge faster (quite a feat considering the Amadeus are pretty fast to begin with...just not enough, IMHO), or liberally slower (as appears the case with all 3 HIPsters, though the Kujiken lead the pack by far). IMHO IMHO IMHO

It's nice to see that all 4 recordings clock in @4:30 in 77/2-2 (Menuet. Presto). Also, in 77/1-3 (M. P., also), only the Kujiken break from the pack by 1/2min. Maybe some mvmts. are foolproof?

In the slow mvmt. of No.2, QM are a full 2 1/2mins. slower than the Amadeus!

Look, I know there are many different factors that go into any performance: tempos could be correct, but sound could be thin, for instance. Even though the Kujiken appear to be sooo much slower than everyone else, perhaps their "presentation" can withstand such slow tempos (if that is what the case is)? My general impression of the Amadeus is that they should either be a hair faster, or much slower... and the times of the other three "appear" to bear that out.

Any more contenders?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 22, 2009, 12:07:24 PM

Just got the Op.54/Endellion... sounds like Nielsen!!! ::) ;D :o

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Peregrine on June 22, 2009, 01:13:05 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on June 11, 2009, 12:31:42 PM
Just bought Quatuor Ebene's Haydn disc and I really do recommend it.

Yes, yes and thrice yes!!! Just listened to this for the first time this evening - in a word, stunning!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on June 22, 2009, 01:53:55 PM

Quote from: Peregrine on June 22, 2009, 01:13:05 PM
Yes, yes and thrice yes!!! Just listened to this for the first time this evening - in a word, stunning!

Now you guys know why I think they are the greatest thing since sliced bread (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=379). ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: FideLeo on June 22, 2009, 08:30:05 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on June 22, 2009, 11:29:44 AM
Were the old Gabrieli on Chandos HIP? The London Quartet?

Don't think Gabrieli Qt is HIP, nor is the London Qt. :)

EDIT. the London Haydn Qt recording for Hyperion, on the other hand, is clearly HIP. But they have only made it to Op. 17 so far in their (presumably) chronological traversal through the oeuvre.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: FideLeo on June 22, 2009, 08:42:04 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on June 22, 2009, 12:05:08 PM
I forgot about "repeats". Is every mvmt. subject to them? There are such wide margins of tempo.

Most mvmt's can be affected by this observation of repeats ...sonata-form movements, binary-form
movements, even variation- or rondo-form movements, depending on the composer's instructions,
editions etc. Even just for the purpose of comparing basic tempi, it may be necessary to actually
listen to the recordings themselves. Perhaps the exposition repeats omitted by the Amadeus are
retained by most HIP quartets. Try the Edding Qt. recording sometime, either at emusic or when
the CD comes out on the EtCetera label. Their presto's by far outstrip everybody else.

(http://www.freewebs.com/eddingquartet/CD%20Haydn%20booklet%20voor.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 23, 2009, 08:48:49 AM

Quote from: masolino on June 22, 2009, 08:42:04 PM
Perhaps the exposition repeats omitted by the Amadeus are
retained by most HIP quartets. (http://www.freewebs.com/eddingquartet/CD%20Haydn%20booklet%20voor.jpg)

Hmmm... last night I rummaged around for timings, and now I have about ten, and for the most part, I don't know what to make of them. For the most part, the Amadeus set appears to have the fastest times in the menuets and finales. It does appear that they omit first mvmt. repeats, seeing their 77/1-1 is about 1 1/2mins. shorter than just about everyone else, and 77/2-1 is about 2mins. shorter.

77/1-1: Amadeus (5:45) vs Kodaly (7:58)
77/1-2: Amadeus (6:02) vs Kodaly (7:40)
77/1-3: Edding (3:47) vs Kujiken (4:47) :o!!!
77/1-4: Amadeus (4:03) vs Kujiken (6:02)/ABQ (5:47)

77/2-1: Amadeus (5:40) vs Kodaly/Amati (7:50) :o!!!
77/2-2: all (@4:30) vs Angeles (5:26) :o
77/2-3: L'Archibudelli (6:12) vs QM (9:29) :o :o :o!!!
77/2-4: Amadeus (4:27) vs Lindsay (6:15) :o

It's the wild west in there!!!

I was amazed that the Kodaly generally had the longest 1st mvmts. and slow mvmts. ... by far.

If some of these menuets and finales are not based on repeats, then there are some funky timings to be sure, especially the Angeles being @a full minute longer than just about everybody in 77/2-2and the Lindsay, Kujiken, and Kodaly being a full 1 1/2mins. longer in 77/2-4.

So I can imagine why everyone likes the Kodaly. It sounds very spacious and "noble" in its gait. I'm just wondering why both of their finales are sooo much longer? It must be repeats, he assumes.

I don't know about anyone else, but I find this enjoyable! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 23, 2009, 08:49:44 AM

New Amsterdam Quartet?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 23, 2009, 11:28:27 AM

Medici Op.64?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on June 23, 2009, 11:45:06 AM

By now it's like this topic's written in a code I can't crack.

I'm hugely interested in Haydn SQs, but for pages and pages this has been 100% beyond me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on June 23, 2009, 12:47:41 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on June 23, 2009, 08:48:49 AM
Hmmm... last night I rummaged around for timings, and now I have about ten, and for the most part, I don't know what to make of them.

Indeed it's a totally useless exercise if you don't know who takes which repeats, generally HIP SQ's take more repeats. Besides that, speed does not say everything and can be itself subjective - what is objectively slower can actually sound faster, and the other way around. Maybe you could try to explore more productive ways to compare performances?

QuoteSo I can imagine why everyone likes the Kodaly. It sounds very spacious and "noble" in its gait. I'm just wondering why both of their finales are sooo much longer? It must be repeats, he assumes.

I don't know about anyone else, but I find this enjoyable! ;D

Hey! :D I guess you finally discovered someone who is not particularly impressed by the Kodaly Qt...

Yours truly. :o 8)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Valentino on June 23, 2009, 03:36:12 PM

I've only sampled Kodaly's op. 9. Leaves me cold, just like their Mozart Dissonance and Hunt did.

To me, it's just nicely played. I want more.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 23, 2009, 05:18:31 PM

I have seen only casual mention here of the Goodman "cycle". Since I am considering purchasing what disks I can find (13 of 17, so far), I am curious how anyone who has heard them would rate them vs. Fischer, Weil or others that I might be familiar with. Given that you mostly know my taste for period performance, you might take that into account... :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
La Magnifica Comunità - G 269 Quintet in Eb for Strings Op 10 #5 3rd mvmt - Allegretto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on June 24, 2009, 01:32:25 AM

I appear to be one of the few people who does like it :-\ It's a little un-English in style, compared to the precise and soulless stereotype (to some extent correctly) attributed to performers such as Pinnock. The orchestra can sometimes be found to be flying by the seat of their pants, and there are a couple of moments of slight scrappiness, but overall the verve of the performances more than carry any ensemble issues. This devil may care attitude allows a rugged feel to the music, underlined by Goodman's rather loud continuo. It is quite far from Pinnock's rather restrained (but impressive) recordings, and while Hogwood may be better overall, being more balanced and considered, I find personally that the style of the Goodman recordings wins me over. It works very well in the Sturm und Drang works, but perhaps less so in the Paris set. His recordings of the early symphonies (which joyfully he recorded all of) are the only ones I regularly listen to - I find fischer a little too heavy for these works. I suppose Goodman's recordings will either be found to be refreshing or simply annoying depending on whether you subscribe to his mannerisms or not. They aren't quite as bang and crash as Harnoncourt or Fey, but definitely less measured than Solomons (a big favourite) and Brüggen, but there is no lack of poetry when required as well. The tension in the works comes across rather heavily, opposed to Solomons who implies it strongly, eventually allowing it through when it matters. I have yet to hear Weil.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on June 24, 2009, 02:15:27 AM

Lethe, I'm glad you like the Solomons versions !!! ;) He remains my yardstick for S&D, although I start to appreciate Pinnock and Fischer a bit more after repeated listening. But Solomons is superior.

I finally caved in to temptation and bought the Dorati set. I now have 2 complete sets (Fischer is the other one), plus several Paris and London sets, plus a 3rd S&D with Pinnock, plus miscellaneous Hogwoods and others.

I must say that Dorati and Fischer provide a wonderful contrast which often illuminates the music in unexpected ways. It's great having both sets and being able to hear one version of a symphony or movement immediately after the other. The two approaches are extremely complementary and both seem to have Haydn's music and idiom in their hearts. I'm even getting to enjoy Fischer's habit of occasionally playing some parts of the score as solo passages. Even if it's not what Haydn actually wrote, it usually in the spirit of the music and I think Haydn himself would have enjoyed it. And when Fischer occasionally overdoes it, you can rely on Dorati to provide a noble and sensitive alternative. So much to discover in Haydn .... :) I really don't regret spending 100 euros to get both Dorati and Fischer.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 24, 2009, 04:29:43 AM

Quote from: Lethe on June 24, 2009, 01:32:25 AM
I appear to be one of the few people who does like it :-\ It's a little un-English in style, compared to the precise and soulless stereotype (to some extent correctly) attributed to performers such as Pinnock. The orchestra can sometimes be found to be flying by the seat of their pants, and there are a couple of moments of slight scrappiness, but overall the verve of the performances more than carry any ensemble issues. This devil may care attitude allows a rugged feel to the music, underlined by Goodman's rather loud continuo. It is quite far from Pinnock's rather restrained (but impressive) recordings, and while Hogwood may be better overall, being more balanced and considered, I find personally that the style of the Goodman recordings wins me over. It works very well in the Sturm und Drang works, but perhaps less so in the Paris set. His recordings of the early symphonies (which joyfully he recorded all of) are the only ones I regularly listen to - I find fischer a little too heavy for these works. I suppose Goodman's recordings will either be found to be refreshing or simply annoying depending on whether you subscribe to his mannerisms or not. They aren't quite as bang and crash as Harnoncourt or Fey, but definitely less measured than Solomons (a big favourite) and Brüggen, but there is no lack of poetry when required as well. The tension in the works comes across rather heavily, opposed to Solomons who implies it strongly, eventually allowing it through when it matters. I have yet to hear Weil.

Sara,
Thanks for the feedback. It rather sounds like just my sort of thing; I like scrappy. :) And it is the early ones that I am keen on getting. I have many (too many perhaps) of a lot of the later ones. But there are "series" of the symphonies which pass under the radar, like most of the early ones, and then the marvelous works in the "70's", and Goodman seems to have focused on that. So, I think you've convinced me. As for the continuuo, it is quite appropriate in the pre-Paris works, less so from there on out. So I'll adjust my ear and learn to love it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 24, 2009, 05:24:59 AM

Gurn - I have about a half dozen of the Roy Goodman discs, mainly the middle symphonies - been picking them up at BRO for $5 each; I too enjoy them and would certainly support Sara's excellent comments in her previous post.

Now, I do own the Fischer box, and would certainly enjoy another set - Dorati seems like a good option, and just $56 at Amazon for the moment; these recordings are about 40 yrs old but I assume the sound quality is pretty good?

I haven't looked at 'complete box' options lately, but other suggestions to consider would be appreciated - thanks. Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 24, 2009, 05:43:00 AM

Quote from: SonicMan on June 24, 2009, 05:24:59 AM
Gurn - I have about a half dozen of the Roy Goodman discs, mainly the middle symphonies - been picking them up at BRO for $5 each; I too enjoy them and would certainly support Sara's excellent comments in her previous post.

Now, I do own the Fischer box, and would certainly enjoy another set - Dorati seems like a good option, and just $56 at Amazon for the moment; these recordings are about 40 yrs old but I assume the sound quality is pretty good?

I haven't looked at 'complete box' options lately, but other suggestions to consider would be appreciated - thanks. Dave :)

Dave,
Thanks for the input. About the Dorati, I have the Paris set (Double Decca) and a few singles (like 6-8), and even though they were a landmark at the time of recording, I think performance style has passed them by. Although $56 is a nice price and that would make it worthwhile, for me, it is more at this point like "hunt up single disks by groups you know you like (Weil, Hogwood, now Goodman, Harnoncourt, maybe Brüggen), and try to get as good a variety that way as possible. Fischer has quite satisfied me in re a full set. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on June 24, 2009, 06:41:22 AM

In reply to Sonicman and Gurn,

Yes, I agree that performing styles have changed in 40 years, but that's part of the interest. It's rather like the "then and now" photo books that show pictures of people and places as they were in the 60's and how they are now. The written music is exactly the same, but the interpretations are 2 generations apart. And Haydn's music can bear both approaches extremely well.

I find the sound quality for Dorati to be quite accptable, but not as clear and clean as Fischer (excepting the London's where Fischer had reverb problems).

I don't see the point in getting two similar sets. And for several of the symphonies I get more from listening to Dorati than Fischer. But Dorati was my first set, so there is the nostalgia factor ......

Outside of full sets, I have a strong liking for Kuijken in the London symphonies. This is only available as an import from Japan now, but you can get it through Amazon. The recordings and playing are razor sharp. I can hear all sorts of details that I missed from other recordings and interpretations. Before I picked up this set from Kuijken, my references were Harnoncourt and Szell ..... now they are demoted to second place.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on June 24, 2009, 06:45:12 AM

Quote from: alkan on June 24, 2009, 06:41:22 AM
I don't see the point in getting two similar sets.

For some, there will be no point. For others, the point is self-apparent.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 24, 2009, 02:16:42 PM

Quote from: Valentino on June 23, 2009, 03:36:12 PMI want more.

I want more, too!

Quote from: Que on June 23, 2009, 12:47:41 PMMaybe you could try to explore more productive ways to compare performances?

I've already tried laying on of hands on the computer. Sooomething keeps getting in the way! ::)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 24, 2009, 02:25:54 PM

Endellion Op.54:

I don't believe I'd heard Op.54 before, and I must say, these are some deeeep SQs! I can't compare the Endellion's playing, but they seem to have a solid, gutsy approach... just regular good ole "go for it" playing.

This set does have a Beethovanian seriousness about it: elusive, deep, and original (54/2 closes with a slow mvmt!). These are some meaty SQs, not immediately accessable. They dooo sound a bit ahead of their time. Is this set the sleeper of the bunch?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 24, 2009, 02:57:10 PM

The thing I'm liking about the Haydn "thing" is that getting to the bottom of various recordings is a totally different animal than for Mozz, LvB, or Schbt. Where is the "original" complete Haydn SQ set?

Is it the Aeolian? The Amadeus and Tokyo take DG no farther back than Op.50, no? What I mean is, it appears Haydn had no Busch or Kolisch in the early days. Someone said that Haydn wasn't a "hit."

Anyhow, it does seem, for better or worse, that the Kodaly is the group most of us will be exposed to Haydn SQs by. Good n cheep as they are, I'm at the place (like valentino) where I want more. But, again, I wouldn't be surprised if their Op.77 surpasses others: I would hope at least one of their performances is definitive (everyone has "on" days, too!). I'm probably going to get their Op.77 as my go to copy, a) because of the overwhelmingly positive reviews, and b) the price. If they don't dislodge the Amadeus from my memory, then I will move on. Either way, I think I have chosen Op.77 as my HIP testing ground also, and I'm frothing over the Smithson only because they are the only group no one has mentioned.

I do like how different Quartets only record one or two sets. Most of you seem to be lamenting this fact, but my pocketbook$$$ rejoices (ex.: Apponyi)! Opp. 33 & 50 & 55 are like three "lost" sets that have relatively fewer recordings, and the most "off brand" recordings. In other words, getting into Haydn SQs is an adventure!

I do wish to continue discussing the various groups and opuii (?). 33, 50, & 55 are next on my hit list (I'm saving 64 & 76 till last).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bulldog on June 24, 2009, 02:57:53 PM

Quote from: Que on June 23, 2009, 12:47:41 PM
Indeed it's a totally useless exercise if you don't know who takes which repeats, generally HIP SQ's take more repeats. Besides that, speed does not say everything and can be itself subjective -

I'd say that speed on its own tells us nothing significant.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bulldog on June 24, 2009, 03:01:13 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on June 24, 2009, 02:57:10 PM
Anyhow, it does seem, for better or worse, that the Kodaly is the group most of us will be exposed to Haydn SQs by.

That won't be doing Haydn any favors. Sometimes there is a correlation between cost and quality.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on June 25, 2009, 10:55:54 AM

Quote from: Bulldog on June 24, 2009, 03:01:13 PM
That won't be doing Haydn any favors. Sometimes there is a correlation between cost and quality.

Quote from: Bulldog on June 24, 2009, 02:57:53 PM
I'd say that speed on its own tells us nothing significant.

Posts of the day.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on June 25, 2009, 11:21:13 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on June 24, 2009, 02:57:10 PM

I do wish to continue discussing the various groups and opuii (?).

The official plural of opus is opera, works.

However I think a lot of people say opuses.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 25, 2009, 12:11:59 PM

BrainFart!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 25, 2009, 04:37:08 PM

Below is a post that I put in the 'listening thread' a few days ago - now finishing the last 2 discs of this set - just wonderful 'wind' music from Joe - again, early works but Klocker and his gang do a great job! The price is right & the music enjoyable - a recommendation! :D

QuoteHaydn, Joseph - Divertimentos for Wind w/ Dieter Klocker & Consortium Classicum; 4-CD bargain set from Warner Classics recorded 1979-81 - new arrival and just starting on the first disc; early Haydn & windy, to say the least! ;D

A lot of this early writing was likely meant to be 'background' dinner music or for light gatherings - but even from the start, Joe knew he wanted to be remembered on this planet! The music is delightful, melodic, and the winds are well intergrated; apparently some of his first composing for the clarinet - need to explore the history of these works more, but hopefully some of our 'Haydn buddies' can help out! :)

(http://img.maniadb.com/images/album/273/273945_1_f.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Josquin des Prez on June 25, 2009, 04:43:28 PM

Maybe if the Mosaiques had finished the set when they still had the chance...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 25, 2009, 05:05:43 PM

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on June 25, 2009, 04:43:28 PM
Maybe if the Mosaiques had finished the set when they still had the chance...

How so, JdP? Surely they will be recording somewhere... :-\

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Trio Miró - Boccherini Op 14 Trio #3 in A for Strings 3rd mvmt - Allegretto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 25, 2009, 05:14:14 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on June 25, 2009, 04:37:08 PM
Below is a post that I put in the 'listening thread' a few days ago - now finishing the last 2 discs of this set - just wonderful 'wind' music from Joe - again, early works but Klocker and his gang do a great job! The price is right & the music enjoyable - a recommendation! :D

I will be getting that soon from England, Dave. Nice to know you like it, most of the Hob II works will be new to me, there simply aren't many recordings of them... :-\ As for the clarinet, I wouldn't be 100% sure that it was the original instrument that Haydn wrote for. Only Hob II:3, 30, 31 & 32 actually had a clarinet written. Not that it matters, since it will sound super anyway. Klocker is well known for fitting a clarinet in where no clarinet has gone before. Bless his heart... 0:)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Trio Miró - Boccherini Op 14 Trio #3 in A for Strings 4th mvmt - Minuetto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 26, 2009, 05:10:17 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 25, 2009, 05:14:14 PM
I will be getting that soon from England, Dave. Nice to know you like it, most of the Hob II works will be new to me, there simply aren't many recordings of them... :-\ As for the clarinet, I wouldn't be 100% sure that it was the original instrument that Haydn wrote for. Only Hob II:3, 30, 31 & 32 actually had a clarinet written. Not that it matters, since it will sound super anyway. Klocker is well known for fitting a clarinet in where no clarinet has gone before. Bless his heart... 0:)

Hello Gurn -tonight, I was just checking to see what else I may own from those Hob. II works - below are the other discs which I've shown in previous posts (believe that you already own the Notturni w/ the wonderful Dieter K. - not sure if you've bought the Testament disc yet?) - well, the only overlap are about 5 pieces on the Testament disc (which I'll still keep - just excellent performances).

These early Hob. II works seem to have some mystery as to their exact dates of composition, the instruments to be used (and likely open to 'what' was available), and also to their authenticity, all of course fascinating in exploring 'early' Joe - the 'role' of the clarinet may remain a mystery but the liner notes state that Haydn did have some players on this instrument to incorporate into some of these works - but I agree Dieter is just wonderful in working in his instrument into these discoveries and early compositions! Dave :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/348873594_jAXs4-M.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/350627380_n4pxj-M.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: ChamberNut on June 26, 2009, 05:13:50 PM

So....if we are all fans of Haydn, do we call ourselves the Hob Nobs? ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 26, 2009, 05:22:49 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on June 26, 2009, 05:10:17 PM
Hello Gurn -tonight, I was just checking to see what else I may own from those Hob. II works - below are the other discs which I've shown in previous posts (believe that you already own the Notturni w/ the wonderful Dieter K. - not sure if you've bought the Testament disc yet?) - well, the only overlap are about 5 pieces on the Testament disc (which I'll still keep - just excellent performances).

These early Hob. II works seem to have some mystery as to their exact dates of composition, the instruments to be used (and likely open to 'what' was available), and also to their authenticity, all of course fascinating in exploring 'early' Joe - the 'role' of the clarinet may remain a mystery but the liner notes state that Haydn did have some players on this instrument to incorporate into some of these works - but I agree Dieter is just wonderful in working in his instrument into these discoveries and early compositions! Dave :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/348873594_jAXs4-M.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/350627380_n4pxj-M.jpg)

Dave,
Yes, there are a few that have ? after the date, but by and large they are nailed down. If you don't have it already, you ought to pick up a "New Grove Haydn", it is a great resource for this kind of info. Once I figured out how to read the Hoboken tables, that is... ::)

I haven't picked up that Testament disk yet, but I did read the track listing somewhere on line and noted that there were some differences, which is good news. My guess is that having both of them is the way to go. You're right, I have that notturni disk and greatly enjoy it. Whatever little barrel organ they used to replicate the Lira Organizatta has a wonderful sound to it. You know (I assume) that if you get the L'Archibudelli disk (Music for the King of Naples), the versions are not using the hurdy-gurdy, they are the versions which Haydn reorchestrated for performance during his trips to London. So they are also authentic, but quite different. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Jan Vermeulen - D 845 Sonata in a for Fortepiano 2nd mvmt - Andante, poco mosso

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on June 27, 2009, 01:20:21 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on June 26, 2009, 05:13:50 PM
So....if we are all fans of Haydn, do we call ourselves the Hob Nobs? ;D

I approve of this :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 27, 2009, 11:44:56 AM

My idea of buying 1 (one) Haydn SQ cd for every other pre-1800 SQ cd is running into problems. :-\

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bulldog on June 27, 2009, 11:49:33 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on June 27, 2009, 11:44:56 AM
My idea of buying 1 (one) Haydn SQ cd for every other pre-1800 SQ cd is running into problems. :-\

The problem is creating such an idea for yourself. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 27, 2009, 11:57:15 AM

Aye!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on June 28, 2009, 01:36:08 PM

I was listening to the Op. 17 #3 the other day and I was floored by how beautiful and lush the music is. I usually listen to the later ones, and I don't think I've really heard it before if you know what I mean.

For any other admirers of that string quartet, are there are any particular recordings you think do it justice? You know something that plunge the emotional depths of the work, instead of say playing it like a light divertimento?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 28, 2009, 02:04:40 PM

Quote from: DavidW on June 28, 2009, 01:36:08 PM
I was listening to the Op. 17 #3 the other day and I was floored by how beautiful and lush the music is. I usually listen to the later ones, and I don't think I've really heard it before if you know what I mean.

For any other admirers of that string quartet, are there are any particular recordings you think do it justice? You know something that plunge the emotional depths of the work, instead of say playing it like a light divertimento?

What versions were you listening to, David? I like the Festetics a lot in both Op 9 & 17. My reaction to Op 9 was much like yours to 17 #3, it was like new music! :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Orchestra of the Old Fairfield Academy / Crawford / Kelley (Horn) - K 447 Concerto in Eb for Horn 2nd mvmt - Romance: Larghetto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on June 28, 2009, 02:12:09 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 28, 2009, 02:04:40 PM
What versions were you listening to, David? I like the Festetics a lot in both Op 9 & 17. My reaction to Op 9 was much like yours to 17 #3, it was like new music! :)

8)

I only have Angeles and Kodaly, and I was listening to the Angeles Quartet recording. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 28, 2009, 04:32:46 PM

Quote from: DavidW on June 28, 2009, 02:12:09 PM
I only have Angeles and Kodaly, and I was listening to the Angeles Quartet recording. :)

Never heard it, but supposed to be fine players. I think that too many quartets simply don't respect the early stuff. Pity really... :-\

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Orchestra of the Old Fairfield Academy / Crawford / Kelley (Horn) - K 495 Concerto in Eb for Horn 1st mvmt - Allegro maestoso

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Nick on June 29, 2009, 07:58:39 AM

I'm done with the Piano Sonatas and almost done with the String Quartets.

The early String Quartets don't hit me where I live yet as much as the early Symphonies, but from Op.9 on, it's just a joy-fest.

Other than The Creation, what would you say would be the most Romantic Haydn?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 29, 2009, 08:25:08 AM

Anyone heard about the Coull Qrt. Op.33 on CRD?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on June 29, 2009, 11:30:25 AM

Quote from: Nick on June 29, 2009, 07:58:39 AM
I'm done with the Piano Sonatas and almost done with the String Quartets.

The early String Quartets don't hit me where I live yet as much as the early Symphonies, but from Op.9 on, it's just a joy-fest.

Other than The Creation, what would you say would be the most Romantic Haydn?

The Storm and Stress symphonies for my Romantic style excess. For the most profoundly stirring music I prefer his late piano sonatas.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on June 29, 2009, 05:07:49 PM

I don't if many of our members have listened to an authentic lira organizatta (organ hurdy-gurdy); but I thought it would be interesting to post an example taken from the Concerto for 2 Lire organizzate no 1 in C major, Hob. 7h: 1, performed by the Ensemble Baroque de Limoges directed by Christophe Coin.

More information about the instrument here: http://matthias.loibner.net/

http://www.goear.com/files/external.swf?file=0064ecb

It's crazy, but at the end of the first track (Allegro con spirito of the same concert), you can hear a dog barking.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on June 29, 2009, 05:09:29 PM

And here some pictures:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 29, 2009, 05:15:47 PM

Wow, those are cool looking! I know they sound great too, because I have the album, but bought it as a download, so I have none of the supporting info. Sonic needs to look at these, he is an avid fan of old instruments (and reproductions). :) Thanks, AM,

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Orchestra of the Old Fairfield Academy / Crawford / Miller (Flute) - K 314 Concerto #2 in D for Flute 3rd mvmt - Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on June 29, 2009, 10:50:47 PM

Wow, those 'Classical people' had some strange looking instruments! I can listen to the sample once I'm home.

Thanks, Antoine.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on June 30, 2009, 01:25:35 AM

The Festetics series is now ion offer at europadisc.

With the recent rise of the GBP perhaps not as good an offer as it would have been some time ago, but still, 11.50 GBP per double set quite a good deal.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: haydnguy on June 30, 2009, 01:48:49 AM

On my Haydn Quest of the Brilliant Boxed Set (Volume 1), I'm on CD 11.

Symphony No. 40 in F
Symphony No. 41 in C
Symphony No. 42 in D

Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra - Adam Fischer

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on June 30, 2009, 02:16:45 AM

See, you've already outpaced me! 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on June 30, 2009, 04:05:06 AM

You're welcome, Gurn and Opus!

I doubted if I should include my message here or in the old instruments' thread. But, you know, this is the Haydn Year. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on June 30, 2009, 07:33:33 PM

I did notice how available, and cheap, the Festetics got all of a sudden on Amazon.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on June 30, 2009, 10:45:18 PM

I just ordered the op 54/55 double, and then I'll see if I'll spring for the rest of the series as an HIP supplement to the Mosaiques.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 01, 2009, 06:55:45 PM

Who's "Razor" has the cleanest shave? Seriously.

Op.55 seems to have the least amount of options, the new META4 disc notwithstanding. Again, the Lindsays look tempting here. I remember having the Kodaly long ago and not being impressed here. I imagine the Amadeus are steady contenders.

How does a HIP "Razor" work?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Coopmv on July 01, 2009, 07:23:11 PM

These are all the Haydn String Quartets I have in my collection ...

Kaiserquartett     Eder Quartett   TELDEC
Kaiserquartett     Kraub Quartett   Berlin Classics
String Quartets Op. 76 Nos 4-6   Kodaly Quartet   NAXOS
String Quartets Op. 71 Nos 1-3   Kodaly Quartet   NAXOS
String Quartets Op. 74 Nos 1-3   Kodaly Quartet   NAXOS

My favorite is the Kaiserquartett ...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 02, 2009, 11:52:20 AM

Just got the Kodaly Op.77...

I had to return the Amadeus set, but listening now to the Kodaly I can remember some of the diffs and similarities.

As I said before, the Kodaly seemed to have the longest timings out there, and finally I get my answer. 1/1 is fully 2 mins. longer than the Amadeus, but the general tempo isn't that much slower, so it has to be a repeat (though I'm having trouble figuring out where it begins). Except for disliking the very first chord, I thought the Kodaly corrected what I might have thought was missing from the Amadeus. The Kodaly aren't as "gutsy" as the Amadeus, though, having a much "smoother" ensemble sound (I did miss the Amadeus "sound"). I can't tell, but is there some "smudging" in the Kodaly sound?

1/2 is taken muuuch slower by the Kodaly (6:02 vs 7:40) even though there appears to be a repeat addition by the Kodaly (just 20secs. longer than QM, if that helps). I thought the Amadeus could have played it slower, and the Kodaly certainly make up for it. I don't know if they play it too slow, but they manage to keep it up nonetheless. Again, I kind of miss the Amadeus "sound" (whether the playing or recording, I don't know).

1/3 really shines with the Kodaly. Those chirping high notes have a charm I don't recall from the Amadeus. Though timings are relatively close (30secs.) the Kodaly seem to be just that amount slower that makes the whole thing work . The funny little upward scale is taken just about right in the Kodaly whereas the Amadeus do not retard in the slightest.

1/4 seems similar, though the Kodaly are 1:20 longer. Must be a repeat, though I can't tell where it begins. For 77/1, the Amadeus had the absolute shortest times of the 10 comparisons.

Though the Kodaly are a full 2 mins. longer than the Amadeus in 2/1, this must be due to a repeat. The Kodaly seem to correct whatever problem I had with the Amadeus here (Goldilocks syndrome), though, perhaps, there could be a little... MORE. I just want MORE. Only 2/4 had any severe discrepencies (4:27 vs 6:09), but once again, it must be a repeat deletion. The Kodaly here aren't as fast as I would prefer (maybe no one is), but overall the Kodaly manage the Prestos just fine.

Ultimately, the Amadeus had great ensemble, sound, and generally just could've used a little tempo alteration (up or down). The Kodaly were more delicate than I'd hoped, but the contrast compared to the Amadeus was invaluable. Neither was perfect in tempos: technically, they could always be faster.

So, the Kodaly wasn't as "opulent" as I'd hoped (I thought the Unitarian Church was more reverberant), nor as "gutsy" (more homogenous than I'd hoped, which, of course, is not neccesarily a bad thing), but I don't think you can levy the usual "Kodaly criticisms" against Op.77. I mean, it "sounds" just fine, but I can tell, for me, my journey with Op.77 has just begun, oy vey!

Next I'd like to try QM, QF, Archi-b, Edding, Kujiken, or Smithson (sorry, Que, my computy just won't play stuff (or I'm dense, which could be)), and one other modern... but who (I'd love to hear the Amati)?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 02, 2009, 03:03:41 PM

I also got the "Caspar da Salo" Quartett on PILZ/Vienna Masters playing Op.64 1-3.

ha, for $0.25... so, according to the "you get what you pay for" folks, I should be crying, but, I'm not (4-6, at $0.79, should arrive tomorrow). No, I don't have a compare, and it's been ages since I heard these SQs (if I ever bothered in the first place), but the anonymous quartet rocks these SQs! They are extremely tight and perky. I can't imagine trimming too much fat off of these performances! Razor sharp, yet very friendly.

Another perusal of timings yielded the quickest Op.64 yet (as opposed to the Lindsays with the longest); but, no matter.

But I must say, these SQs (1-3) are the least memorable Haydn SQs so far, to my ears (along w/ Op.71). I'm hoping 4-6 will perk me up more. (I haven't heard the "Lark" for years) Based on these first three, I don't quite understand their popularity. I'm just not finding any "cool" things here, whereas in Op.54 there appears to be so much innovation (54/2). No melodies are popping out at me; the most memorable mvmt. so far was the Scherzando of 64/1. I do like the way 64/1 (in C major) opens almost just like 20/2 (also in C), but just the very first 2secs.

Anyhow, Gurn says this is his fav for Op.64, bar none. Are there any other believers out there? Forget about the price (or lack thereof). This appears to be quite the contender. Anyone?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on July 02, 2009, 03:29:20 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on July 02, 2009, 03:03:41 PM
No melodies are popping out at me; the most memorable mvmt. so far was the Scherzando of 64/1. I do like the way 64/1 (in C major) opens almost just like 20/2 (also in C), but just the very first 2secs.

Is it just melody to you?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 03, 2009, 09:33:28 AM

Yes and no.

But these Op.64 1-3... I feel like they're just not giving me much to hold on to. It's like Haydn's "working stuff out." It's got incidental interest in what's "going on," but I was hoping for some melodic appeal. So far, this set seems worlds away from Op.54, but seems like the precursor to Op.71/74 (which, of course, it is). It seems these three opera (plus a good part of Op.76) are more concerned with other things, rather than killer melody. I'm sure I knew this about Haydn, but...

Op.54 seems so much "more" than Op.64 1-3 to me. I dunno...

But this PILZ recording is really something else... awesome. Pithy.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on July 03, 2009, 10:00:36 AM

Try Op 64 #6, the first movement has a very stirring melody. Of course it's more interesting what he does with it. I love the effortless way in which he varies it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 03, 2009, 10:42:25 AM

4-6 will hopefully arrive tomorrow.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 04, 2009, 02:58:05 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 04, 2009, 04:21:18 PM
The Seven Last Words has come down to us in no fewer than five versions, all of which were produced over a period of some 10 years:

a) the original version for orchestra, frequently dated 1785, in other sources 1787;

b) the version for string quartet , completed before 21 June 1787, and made under Haydn's supervision.

c) the version for "Clavicembalo o Fortepiano", also referred as a "Piano Score" (in his letter of 21-6-1787) "selbst übersehen und corrigirt", i.e., also created under his supervision.

d) a version (perhaps even two) as a oratorio for soloists, chorus and orchestra, made by Joseph Friebert, music director of the Cathedral of Passau, 1792 (?).

e) an oratorio version made by Haydn himself, probably dating from 1795/1796.

This information is taken from the liner notes written by Jos van Immerseel for the booklet of his own version on fortepiano of this work.

The version for "Clavicembalo o Fortepiano" is one of my preferred arrangements of The Seven Last Words. Although this version was not written by the composer himself, he revised and approved enthusiastically the results, as demonstrate two letters written to his publisher Artaria. There Haydn writes: "The original of the 7 Words, as well as both the quartet and piano versions, have been checked and corrected by myself". Two days after: "I hereby send the proofs of the 7 words in all three versions. Among other things I must praise the piano score, which has been prepared very well and with exceptional care" (quoted from the excellent liner notes of the Brilliant set).

In the last years several versions of this arrangement has been recorded using copies of period instruments. During this week I have been listening to all my four discs devoted to this work. Although my favorite version is performed by Brautigam, the other three are all excellent and I would be happy with any of them.

Any other version on fortepiano or modern piano?

I also have seen on internet a version by Aapo Häkkinen (on clavichord), but I don't know it.

Here my discs:

I. BART VAN OORT, fortepiano
Haydn – Klavierstücke (complete)
Fantasias
Variations Dances
The Seven Last Words
5 CDs

CD 5
The Seven Last Words
Die sieben letzten Worte unseres Erlösers am Kreuze Hob XX/2 (1787)
1. L'Introduzione (6:33)
2. Sonata I Pater, dimitte illis, quia nesciunt, quid faciunt (7:00)
3. Sonata II Hodie mecum eris in Paradiso (6:42)
4. Sonata III Mulier, ecce filius tuus (7:26)
5. Sonata IV Deus meus, ut quid derelquisti me? (5:50)
6. Sonata V Sittio (6:40)
7. Sonata VI Consummatum est (7:25)
8. Sonata VII In manus tuas, Domine, commendo Spiritum meum (7:05)
9. Il Terremoto (2:05)
Fortepiano after Walter (ca. 1795) by Chris Maene (Ruiselede, 2000)
Recorded 10 May 2007, Hervormde Kerk, Rhoon, The Netherlands. DDD
Total timing 56:54
Brilliant Classics

II. RONALD BRAUTIGAM, fortepiano
Joseph Haydn – The Complete Music for Solo Keyboard
15 CDs

CD 15
(available like a single disc)

Die sieben letzten Worte unseres Erlosers am Kreuze
The Seven Last Words of the Saviour on the Cross
(Authorized keyboard arrangement of the orchestral work with the same title, Hob. XX:1, performed from a facsimile of the original edition)
1. Intrada. Maestoso e Adagio (6:29)
2. Sonata I. Largo (6:33)
3. Sonata II. Grave e Cantabile (8:47)
4.- Sonata III. Grave (9:00)
5. Sonata IV. Largo (8:19)
6. Sonata V. Adagio (8:23)
7. Sonata VI. Lento (7:48)
8. Sonata VII. Largo (7:41)
9. Il Terremoto. Presto (1:47)
Fortepiano by Paul McNulty, Amsterdam 1992, after A.G. Walter, ca. 1795
Recorded at the Lanna Church, Sweden, August 2002. DDD
Total timing 66:22
Bis

http://www.youtube.com/v/XUVaBTpvtmI

http://www.youtube.com/v/J3LV5SlpqyQ

III. JAROSLAV TŮMA, fortepiano
Die sieben letzten Worte unseres Erlösers am Kreuze
The Seven Last Words of Christ (keyboard version)

1. Introduzione (5:07)
2-8. Sonatas I, II, III, IV, V, VI, VII (64:07)
9. Il terremoto (2:09)
Fortepiano, copy of Walter and sons, 1806 (Vienna)
Recording in Prague, August 30-31, 2003. SACD (Hybrid)
Total timing: 71:27
Praga Digitals

IV. JOS VAN IMMERSEEL, fortepiano
Sette sonate con un introduzione ed al fine un teremoto sopra le sette ultime parole del Nostro Redentore in Croce
1. L'Introduzione. Maestoso e Adagio (6:50)
2. Sonata I. Largo (7:45)
3. Sonata II. Grave e Cantabile (6:17)
4.- Sonata III. Grave (6:53)
5. Sonata IV. Largo (5:55)
6. Sonata V. Adagio (7:23)
7. Sonata VI. Lento (5:43)
8. Sonata VII. Largo (6:08)
9. Il Terremoto. Presto (2:04)
Fortepiano Chrstopher Clarke, 1988. Cluny after Anton Walter, Vienna
Recording dates: 17/18 May 1994. DDD
Total timing 56:40
Channel Classics

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 04, 2009, 03:02:09 PM

Some covers:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 04, 2009, 03:04:39 PM

Another two:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on July 05, 2009, 11:12:44 AM

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/weta_haydn2009_bmp1.bmp)

Continuing "Haydn 2009"

Haydn 2009 - Harmoniemesse (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=585)

QuoteFor his last big work, the 1802 Harmoniemesse, written for the occasion of the name-day of Princess Maria Hermengild Esterházy, Joseph Haydn chose a new, different compositional style. It's no longer the 'classical sound' we are used to, but something altogether bolder. That can be disconcerting to ears that expect to be casually entertained with that easy beauty and gay spirit that features so strongly in most of his work. Intrepid, if not quite yet 'Beethovenesque-romantic', the Kyrie and Gloria especially are rather demanding.

If you continue to listen attentively, you'll happen upon the gem of "Et incarnatus est", where the Gloria lets up; later the quickening Agnus Dei that concludes with the Dona nobis pacem, a positively rousing, joyous plea for peace...

Continued at WETA (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=585)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Valentino on July 06, 2009, 02:29:32 AM

4 and 6 are the highlights of the set, IMO.

Have heard QM do 3 and 6 live, and I bought their recording of the op. after that. 6 is fabulous, 3 less engaging, both in concert and on disc.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 06, 2009, 04:44:47 AM

An interesting article for Haydn fans;

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/may/29/joseph-haydn-comedy-classical-music

Quote

I had the pleasure and privilege of conducting Haydn's Symphony No 80 in D minor in Salzburg recently. It's an astonishing work, full of surprises, and almost completely unknown. The first movement is typically Sturm und Drang until the exposition is suddenly interrupted by a charming and elegant dance-like theme. In the development section, Haydn introduces unusually long pauses and, with daring modulations, makes unexpected excursions into strange tonalities. The last movement - the Presto - is a tour de force of rhythmic ambiguities: the listener has to guess where the upbeats and the downbeats are; only after 32 bars does Haydn introduce rhythmic regularity. It's ingenious, and extremely funny. But in Salzburg no one laughed. No one even smiled. It seems to be much easier to make an audience cry than it is to make them laugh. There are many music-lovers who won't even admit that humour has a place in what we call classical music. These are people who have no difficulty recognising sadness, tragedy, grief, majesty and grandeur - because these are serious attributes, and they want their beloved music to be "serious". For them jokes are made of cheap, vulgar and inferior matter that cannot be tolerated on the altar of High Art.

Several years ago in a Tokyo bookstore I came upon a strange book in which the author explained how to understand jokes. Each joke or anecdote was followed by several pages of instructions telling the reader why it was supposed to be funny.

Haydn was writing for a public that understood perfectly his musical language. In Eisenstadt and Esterháza, in Vienna and Paris, and first and foremost in London, he was surrounded by a small but knowledgeable circle of professional and amateur musicians who received each new work with interest and appreciation. His audience was familiar with his earlier compositions, they knew his personal style and recognised immediately the unusual features of a new symphony. Musical expectations and surprises did not have to be explained, and Haydn's humour was able to flourish. Today's listening community is of course very different, and all too often we feel the need of a "Japanese booklet" to enlighten certain members of the audience.

Haydn's keyboard works are full of delicious surprises. Take his early Capriccio in G major, which takes as its theme the folk song Acht Sauschneider Müssen Sein. The text of this song is a humorous one: it describes castrating a pig, an operation for which no fewer than eight expert butchers were needed. Haydn translates this into musical terms by wandering wildly from one key to the next, presenting the main theme in its entirety or in fragmented form through various registers of the instrument. There is nothing conventional about this piece, nothing that would have met listeners' expectations. The C major Fantasy (Capriccio) was written almost a quarter of a century later, in 1789. Compared to its predecessor, this is a mature masterpiece, a curious mixture of sonata and rondo forms. On two occasions - on a pause over an octave in the bass - the music comes to a standstill. Here the composer instructs the player to "Tenuto intanto, finché non si sente più il suono" - hold until the sound is not heard any more. Even on a period instrument this pause feels painfully long - the audience begins to get worried - has the poor pianist had a memory lapse? But suddenly the bass quietly slides a semitone upwards, opening new harmonic territories. It is both hilarious and surprising.

In his last piano sonata in E flat major the majestic opening movement is followed by a noble Adagio in E major. This key change alone feels shocking. Conventions of the time dictated that this second movement should have been in the dominant key - B flat major, or in C minor, the parallel minor. The juxtaposition of E flat major and E major was very daring. No composer before Haydn had had the nerve to be so experimental, although Beethoven, for one, followed his example (his late string quartet Op131 has its first movement in C sharp minor, the second in D major), and Schubert's C major string quintet moves from E major in its second movement to an F minor middle section. Haydn's Adagio ends solemnly in E major. As the piano sonata's final movement begins, the right hand alone plays five repeated quavers on G, and we think we're in E minor. The bass then enters on the tonic, E flat. It feels as if Haydn is telling us: "Wrong again."

His unjustly neglected piano trios are amazing works. The one in E flat minor - who else would have written a piece in this key in the 1790s? - opens with an expressive Andante Cantabile, written in double variation form. The following Allegro (there are only two movements) carries the subtitle "Jacob's dream" (an allusion to Jacob's dream of a ladder stretching up to heaven). According to a contemporary anecdote, the violinist of the trio that gave the first performance was infamously arrogant and vain. The first page of music is fairly simple and can be easily sightread. However, after the page-turn the fiddle part escapes into hair-raising heights, which must have presented the musician with serious difficulties - as well as teaching him a lesson in humility.

Haydn's 104 symphonies are widely admired, although only a handful are regularly performed, and when they are, they are invariably placed at the beginning of programmes. This is a pity. Audiences, at the start of concerts, do not really listen to the music. They need to be warmed up - just as the players do - and so Haydn's wonderful ideas are not fully appreciated. Why don't we hear these symphonies at the end of the programme? Or indeed, what's wrong with concert of nothing but Haydn symphonies?

Take No 60 "Il Distratto", a theatrical masterpiece in six movements where in the middle of the Finale the music simply stops and the violins find they need to retune their instruments. Or the one in D major, no 93, the first of the so-called London symphonies. Its second movement proceeds with tender elegance until the brutal interruption of the bassoons - they feel like the proverbial bull in the china-shop. Even today, such tonal effects still feel comic and naughty.

Haydn was an astounding composer, and humour is only one part of his wonderful art. Whole movements, even entire works, are built from one tiny cell - a compositional technique that the young Beethoven learned from his teacher. His sense of proportion was unerring. In the operas and oratorios he overwhelms us with dramatic force and power. The sacred works, like the late masses and his Seven Last Words, are deeply felt and profoundly moving. In his string quartets, symphonies and piano sonatas, he discovered new horizons. The world needs to appreciate him much more: of all the really great composers, he is still the most underrated.

Let me finish with a joke, not a politically correct one, but one that - I guess - might have amused Joseph Haydn.

On a psychiatric ward the patients are sitting in a circle, telling jokes. The jokes are numbers. "58," says one. The others roll about with laughter. Another one shouts: "63." Hilarity ensues. The chief psychiatrist is jealously observing the proceedings - he wants to join in the fun. "17!" he says. Deadly silence. "What's the matter?" he asks. "Isn't there a joke number 17?" "Of course there is," a patient answers, "but you told it so badly."

• András Schiff performs Haydn piano works at the Wigmore Hall, London, on Sunday, and lectures on Haydn at the same venue at 2pm today. Radio 3's Haydn season launches on Sunday. This is an edited and translated version of an article that appeared in the May edition of Fono Forum.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: haydnguy on July 06, 2009, 05:13:43 AM

Thanks for pointing out that article, Gurn.

I have been listening to the Haydn Symphonies in my survey of the Brilliant boxed set and making a list of those pieces I like best. Just before you posted the article I was reminding myself that in the future I could not ignore the ones that were not on my list because there are really good ones that I didn't write down. What a composer!! 8)

In my survey I'm getting ready to start:

Symphony No. 49 in F minor 'LA PASSIONE'
Symphony No. 50 in C
Symphony No. 51 in B flat

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on July 06, 2009, 06:41:13 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 06, 2009, 04:44:47 AM
An interesting article for Haydn fans;

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/may/29/joseph-haydn-comedy-classical-music

8)

Excellent! Many thanks for posting it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2009, 07:03:24 AM

QuoteTake No 60 "Il Distratto", a theatrical masterpiece in six movements where in the middle of the Finale the music simply stops and the violins find they need to retune their instruments. Or the one in D major, no 93, the first of the so-called London symphonies. Its second movement proceeds with tender elegance until the brutal interruption of the bassoons - they feel like the proverbial bull in the china-shop. Even today, such tonal effects still feel comic and naughty.

Naughty Haydn?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on July 06, 2009, 07:12:02 AM

I'm surprised that he finds his audience to be humorless when the humor is built around shock value that we no longer have. When we can listen to dissonant, atonal, arrhythmic music with a smile on our face, the zany antics of Haydn seem tepid in comparison. I love Haydn's music, he is my favorite composer but his humor is dated.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2009, 07:17:00 AM

Quote from: DavidW on July 06, 2009, 07:12:02 AM
I'm surprised that he finds his audience to be humorless when the humor is built around shock value that we no longer have.

Perfectly apt, David. Bravo!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 06, 2009, 07:25:32 AM

Quote from: DavidW on July 06, 2009, 07:12:02 AM
I'm surprised that he finds his audience to be humorless when the humor is built around shock value that we no longer have. When we can listen to dissonant, atonal, arrhythmic music with a smile on our face, the zany antics of Haydn seem tepid in comparison. I love Haydn's music, he is my favorite composer but his humor is dated.

So basically you're saying that anything that requires knowledge and and some element of subtlety is a non-starter then, yes? :-\

Seems a shame... :'(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on July 06, 2009, 07:43:26 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on July 05, 2009, 11:12:44 AM
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/weta_haydn2009_bmp1.bmp)

Continuing "Haydn 2009"

Haydn 2009 - Harmoniemesse (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=585)

Why don't you mention the Weil Haydn masses box set? (It's also available at the US Amazon)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31cNc1-do%2BL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Six-Late-Masses-Haydn/dp/B001TQ1KBW/ref=pd_bxgy_m_img_b)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on July 06, 2009, 07:43:39 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 06, 2009, 07:25:32 AM
So basically you're saying that anything that requires knowledge and and some element of subtlety is a non-starter then, yes? :-\

Seems a shame... :'(

8)

No shock value gags are not subtle! :D It's like the silly scares in lame horror movies, you quickly learn them and while kids might fling their popcorn in the air, adults just roll their eyes. You need to build upon things besides cheap shocks to leave a lasting impression.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on July 06, 2009, 07:47:56 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 06, 2009, 07:17:00 AM
Perfectly apt, David. Bravo!

Yes, I'll agree with David to some extent. The Wow-factor may have faded away, but looking back we can still appreciate Haydn's 'experiments.'

And moreover I never understand humour when it involves jumping from E-flat to E. :-\ In such cases someone needs to explain to me the explanation! Actually, I've come across this term humour many times in the past with regard to classical compositions, and I think it's some form of music-geek humour, but subtler than those about violas and their players. ;D

Having said that, I must thank Gurn for posting the link. It was an entertaining and, in some respects, enlightening read. :)

P.S.: The Mahlerites on board could take cue from the latter part of the first paragraph. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 06, 2009, 08:06:43 AM

Quote from: DavidW on July 06, 2009, 07:43:39 AM
No shock value gags are not subtle! :D It's like the silly scares in lame horror movies, you quickly learn them and while kids might fling their popcorn in the air, adults just roll their eyes. You need to build upon things besides cheap shocks to leave a lasting impression.

But the shock value is merely of ancillary interest compared to the bigger picture, which is doing the unexpected for musical reasons rather than for "shock" reasons. Any time that Haydn goes off on some sort of unexpected tangent, he uses the most interesting devices to get back to the "right" place. Even I can hear it, and I am an admitted ignoramus in such matters. Is it geeky? Sure. But the later composers that you mention don't worry themselves about the manipulation of things back to the expected norm, they just (after Schubert) don't bother coming home again. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 06, 2009, 08:23:33 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 29, 2009, 05:15:47 PM
Wow, those are cool looking! I know they sound great too, because I have the album, but bought it as a download, so I have none of the supporting info. Sonic needs to look at these, he is an avid fan of old instruments (and reproductions). :) Thanks, AM,

Antoine & Gurn - must have just 'blown by' that page in the thread on the Lire organizzate - I've heard of that instrument, and might even have some recordings, but can't recall @ the moment - yes, the 18th into the early 19th centuries was the 'golden ages' of instrument inventions & novelties of all sorts. Will definitely add that disc to my 'wish list', i.e. if still available! :D Dave

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on July 06, 2009, 08:58:35 AM

Quote from: Que on July 06, 2009, 07:43:26 AM
Why don't you mention the Weil Haydn masses box set? (It's also available at the US Amazon)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31cNc1-do%2BL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001TQ1KBW/nectarandambr-20)

Q
Quote from: jlaurson on July 05, 2009, 11:12:44 AM
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/weta_haydn2009_bmp1.bmp)

Continuing "Haydn 2009"

Haydn 2009 - Harmoniemesse (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=585)

1.) I wasn't counting on Haydn & Record collecting ueber-Geeks* to keep a watchful eye for possible omissions. Clearly my foolish mistake. ;D

2.) I ran out of space along the vertical line. (When viewed on high monitor resolutions and with small font-sizes.)

3.) I'm like that.

4.) Sony never sent me the complete set. So there! ;)

5.) Nice linkage.

*This is offered in an endearing spirit... No offense meant

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on July 06, 2009, 09:01:07 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on July 06, 2009, 08:58:35 AM
1.) I wasn't counting on Haydn & Record collecting ueber-Geeks* to keep a watchful eye for possible omissions. Clearly my foolish mistake. ;D

*This is offered in an endearing spirit... No offense meant

GMG is exactly the place to expect ueber-Geeks! One of the charms of the place.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 06, 2009, 12:35:58 PM

Op.33/1,2 & 4- Lindsays:

I haven't heard 1,2, or 5 for a long time. I just returned the Kodaly/3,4,6, but I still have No.4 in mind.

Again, as with Op.64/2, also in b minor, Op.33/1 left me "under-b-minor-whelmed." It seems that part of the "classical" era "thing" was to stay away from anything resembling a "sad" sound (and yes, I know this makes me sound like an ignoramous). All I can say is that that appears to be the case, for the most part, after the Sturm und Drang period. And it's not that I'm looking for something that's not there, it's just that I like truth in advertising... ok, I'll saved my gripes for another thread.

Other than that, the Lindsays appear to do a bang up job. But HOW can the Lindsays dispatch the b minor Finale in 5:06, and the Terpsychordes take almost 12mins.? How many repeats are there? I certainly don't think the Terpsychordes could be playing the thing at half-speed. Anyhow...

Op.33/2 "The Joke," also, left me under-whelmed (oh, I know I'm going to get excoriated for saying things like that). All I'm saying is that as soon as I've heard another SQ, I don't remember anything special about this one (I had to play that ending "Joke" a couple of times before I got it: it goes by so quickly, but yes, it is "cute").

Op.33/4 is the only one here that I had a compare (Kodaly), and from the first snappy notes I could tell that the Lindsays were playing this with more snap than the Kodaly. The Finale was particularly impressive in its zippy, percolating speed. I think the Lindsays have become my go to in some of these:

A) I'm not all that too aware of Peter Cropper's "crimes," and

B) They always seem to do things that are different and interesting.

Oh, and the prices so far have been milk money!

I'm listening to No.4 again, and this thing whizzes by in 17:40. I don't remember the Kodaly leaving me with that impression. I am looking forward to getting the Lindsays' other Op.33 (with the SQs I actually like, Nos. 3 & 6).

At first, Op.33 appeared as if it were going to kill me with boredom, but the opening of No.3, "The Bird," caught me, and then the slow mvmt. of No.6 whacked me over the head (can't wait to here the Lindsays here). I knew the b minor from before (that it wasn't "really" minor key), so I didn't have any expectations (but sooomething must have happened between the great minor keys of Op.20 and here).

I'm expecting Op.64/4-6 tomorrow (PILZ), which then leaves Op.50 (Nomos) and Op.55 (Lindsays, unless you know better). I do sometimes feel like I'm slogging through Haydn here... so much of it does seem businesslike to me, with a certain ho-hum factor, but here and there there are great nuggets (slow mvmt. of 33/6, the "witches menuet" (76/2), Op.77, etc.). But, for someone who "loathes" the classical era, I must say that I'm making progress! ;DHa!!!

Boy, I do tend to write long posts, don't I?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on July 06, 2009, 12:44:29 PM

You might want to slow down and really absorb a single string quartet before you proceed to the next dozen or so. It took me a months, or perhaps it was a full year, to come to terms with Haydn's String Quartets. There is alot of amazing music there, but they can't be fully appreciated at lightning speeds.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bulldog on July 06, 2009, 01:45:03 PM

Quote from: DavidW on July 06, 2009, 12:44:29 PM
You might want to slow down and really absorb a single string quartet before you proceed to the next dozen or so. It took me a months, or perhaps it was a full year, to come to terms with Haydn's String Quartets. There is alot of amazing music there, but they can't be fully appreciated at lightning speeds.

That's why snyprrr keeps close tabs on tempos and timings. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Valentino on July 06, 2009, 01:47:12 PM

A listening impressions blog is fine. The feedback can be illuminating.

No blog, no lumen. 0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on July 07, 2009, 12:45:18 AM

Quote from: Valentino on July 06, 2009, 01:47:12 PM
A listening impressions blog is fine.

Oh, is that what this is.

It just doesn't make any sense to me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Valentino on July 07, 2009, 12:59:23 AM

I think I'd get this book (http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/Music/MusicHistoryWestern/BaroqueClassical/?view=usa&ci=9780195173574#). If it has similar qualities to The Beethoven Quartet Companion it should be most illuminating.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on July 07, 2009, 01:08:48 AM

Quote from: Valentino on July 07, 2009, 12:59:23 AM
I think I'd get this book (http://www.oup.com/us/catalog/general/subject/Music/MusicHistoryWestern/BaroqueClassical/?view=usa&ci=9780195173574#). If it has similar qualities to The Beethoven Quartet Companion it should be most illuminating.

At 110 USD for 392 pages it'd rather be good.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on July 07, 2009, 01:24:05 AM

Quote from: erato on July 07, 2009, 01:08:48 AM
At 110 USD for 392 pages it'd rather be good.

the paperback is thirty dollars.

However Haydn's quartets can be enjoyed without any study material; it does help, though, if you're not constantly worrying about what you should post about what you're hearing, and what other options there are (and their timings!).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on July 07, 2009, 03:09:45 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on July 06, 2009, 08:58:35 AM

1.) I wasn't counting on Haydn & Record collecting ueber-Geeks* to keep a watchful eye for possible omissions. Clearly my foolish mistake. ;D

2.) I ran out of space along the vertical line. (When viewed on high monitor resolutions and with small font-sizes.)

3.) I'm like that.

4.) Sony never sent me the complete set. So there! ;)

5.) Nice linkage.

*This is offered in an endearing spirit... No offense meant

Well, I can understand your admiration for the Weil performance - amazing clarity, enhanced by the boys' choir, crisp rhythmic approach, nicely pointed playing and above all: inspired. Everyone should buy it! :) (And try Weil's Schubert masses with the Tölzer as well)

And I consider the term "Haydn Über-Geek" as a badge of honour that 'll wear with pride. ;D In fact, I promised Gurn to celebrate in appropriate fashion at the nearest opportunity. 8)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on July 07, 2009, 04:00:39 AM

Quote from: Que on July 07, 2009, 03:09:45 AM
Well, I can understand your admiration for the Weil performance - amazing clarity, enhanced by the boys' choir, crisp rhythmic approach, nicely pointed playing and above all: inspired. Everyone should buy it! :) (And try Weil's Schubert masses with the Tölzer as well)

I am inclined to try anything choral with Weil, now. I just don't know what you mean by clarity. Performance-wise? Because as regards the recorded sound, a light bit of hazy distance is the only criticism I have of that CD.

Quote from: Que on July 07, 2009, 03:09:45 AM
And I consider the term "Haydn Über-Geek" as a badge of honour that 'll wear with pride. ;D In fact, I promised Gurn to celebrate in appropriate fashion at the nearest opportunity. 8)

As well you should. On both counts.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on July 07, 2009, 04:08:12 AM

Quote from: Valentino on July 06, 2009, 01:47:12 PM
A listening impressions blog is fine. The feedback can be illuminating.

No blog, no lumen. 0:)

More BTUs than lumen, most of the time, but essentially: yes.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 07, 2009, 08:44:23 AM

Real Men of Genius would understand! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on July 07, 2009, 08:59:03 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on July 07, 2009, 04:00:39 AM
I am inclined to try anything choral with Weil, now. I just don't know what you mean by clarity. Performance-wise? Because as regards the recorded sound, a light bit of hazy distance is the only criticism I have of that CD.

Indeed, performance-wise - a very important feature in choral music. :)
Weil is IMO in the same league as Frieder Bernius and Hans-Cristoph Rademann. It pays huge dividends in the Schubert masses as well.

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 07, 2009, 09:09:04 AM

btw- timings are essential for Sibelius Sym No.7. No one comes close to the original Kouss. 19min. mark (except Boult), and this sym. gets all bent out of shape if you play it slower than that.

I'll admit that Haydn SQ timings, because of repeats, are fairly useless, but, for instance, if it's an SQ I'm not all that fond of, I want the shortest version, ha!

Am I blogging? Fine, but at least I'm talking about the subject. I don't hear too many others here talking about "Haydn SQs" all that much. No one's saying, "I like Op.42 because...", or "I can't stand the Lindsays because...". So I must be doing this for my own sheer pleasure, because I haven't yet found a penpal here who's nutty nutz nutz over Haydn SQs. I mean, if this is a Haydn SQ thread, then there are only a few things to talk about:

A) the music

B) the recordings

C) HIP vs Modern

And I went through this with Haydn SQs 15 years ago. This is just my "final answer" to Haydn. For the most part, I respect them, but don't love them. So, my impressions are for me (for future perusal), and for anyone who may be interested.

And, as opposed to sooome members of GMG who appear to have unlimited sums of money, I don't, so I do as much preliminary research before I spend the children's milk money! And, yea, I'm kind of proud of the fact that I've amassed a "classical" SQ collection in the last few months for pennies on the dollar... bargain basement sniffer, I am! With a couple of exceptions, I haven't payed but @$1-5 per cd.

Maybe I appear to be a pain in the ass, but hey, if anyone else wants to contribute, I'm not stopping anyone.

And yes, I plan to go through all opera... and a top ten list... and a ground breaking ceremony...

So ban me now! ;Dcheez!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on July 07, 2009, 09:10:38 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on July 07, 2009, 09:09:04 AM
This is just my "final answer" to Haydn. For the most part, I respect them, but don't love them.

I respect that.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 07, 2009, 09:11:19 AM

Has anyone mentioned the Panocha yet? How are they in Op.64?

I'm curious. They appear to take zero repeats?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 07, 2009, 09:19:24 AM

FESTETICS:

Let me get this straight. There are two (2) seperate series, one from an earlier time, and one on Antaria (or whatever that label's called)???

The earlier "version" is hopelessly out-of-print? Is this the version with flowers on the cover?

The Antaria? has just been re-released by the guy who bought Antaria... are these the original covers, etc.???... or, are they being repackaged a la QM? The Amazon listings show the old covers.

Also, I was hoping that Antione M. was going to give his "impressions" (there's that word again!) of his forays into his Festetics set?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bulldog on July 07, 2009, 09:29:04 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on July 07, 2009, 09:19:24 AM
FESTETICS:

Let me get this straight. There are two (2) seperate series, one from an earlier time, and one on Antaria (or whatever that label's called)???

It's very unlikely that the Festetics String Quartet has recorded two cycles of Haydn's string quartets; Arcana just recently released the last recording of their (only) cycle.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on July 07, 2009, 09:30:07 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on July 07, 2009, 09:09:04 AM
btw- timings are essential for Sibelius Sym No.7. No one comes close to the original Kouss. 19min. mark (except Boult), and this sym. gets all bent out of shape if you play it slower than that.

Ever heard of rubato? Timing doesn't tell you everything about tempo.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on July 07, 2009, 09:33:48 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on July 07, 2009, 09:09:04 AM
I haven't payed but @$1-5 per cd.

Yeah but if you bought 10,000 such cds over the last few months it would be less of a bargain. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on July 07, 2009, 09:34:02 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on July 07, 2009, 09:19:24 AM
FESTETICS:

Let me get this straight. There are two (2) seperate series, one from an earlier time, and one on Antaria (or whatever that label's called)???

The earlier "version" is hopelessly out-of-print? Is this the version with flowers on the cover?

There is no earlier series, they did a single 2CD set with Op. 33 & 42 for Harmonia Mundi before they recorded the whole series for ARCANA.

Quote

The Antaria? has just been re-released by the guy who bought Antaria... are these the original covers, etc.???... or, are they being repackaged a la QM? The Amazon listings show the old covers.

The series for ARCANA (http://www.arcana.eu/) is being reissued exactly as it was issued the last time before: same packaging - 2 or 3 CD set cardboard foldings, same artwork.

I give the floor to Antoine M. 8)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on July 07, 2009, 09:37:41 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on July 07, 2009, 09:11:19 AM
Has anyone mentioned the Panocha yet?

Merely alright, they might sing in Dvorak but their Haydn leaves me cold. I'm not a huge QM fan, but their Op 64 is charming, you might want to give them a try.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 07, 2009, 09:38:14 AM

Quote from: Que on July 07, 2009, 09:34:02 AM
There is no earlier series, they did a single 2CD set with Op. 33 & 42 for Harmonia Mundi before they recorded the whole series for ARCANA.
Q

Actually, they also did Op 77/103 for Harmonia Mundi too. I have it... :D (In fact, I have both of those. Apparently HM is an easier label to find than ARCANA!).

Also, while looking for the Arcana Op 9, I ran across several references to QF having done Op 9 previously, and the quality of the work (intonation, for example) not being what they wished it to be. The Arcana is said to be far superior. I don't know if it is superior or not, but it is excellent. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on July 07, 2009, 09:40:23 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 07, 2009, 09:38:14 AM
Actually, they also did Op 77/103 for Harmonia Mundi too. I have it... :D (In fact, I have both of those.)

Also, while looking for the Arcana Op 9, I ran across several references to QF having done Op 9 previously,

I stand corrected. 8)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 07, 2009, 09:43:46 AM

Quote from: Que on July 07, 2009, 09:40:23 AM
I stand corrected. 8)

Q

Oh, please don't! :o I was just remembering your post in the Haydn Haus about Haydn geeks on GMG... ;D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on July 07, 2009, 09:46:08 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 07, 2009, 09:43:46 AM
Oh, please don't! :o I was just remembering your post in the Haydn Haus about Haydn geeks on GMG... ;D

8)

There are here many Haydn Über-Geeks, but there can only be ONE Über-über-Geek! 8)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 07, 2009, 09:48:39 AM

Quote from: Que on July 07, 2009, 09:46:08 AM
There are here many Haydn Über-Geeks, but there can only be ONE Über-über-Geek! 8)

Q

Please, introduce us. Man, have I got some questions! :o :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 07, 2009, 10:07:14 AM

ok, so Festetics only recorded 33/42 (the flower cover?), and 77/103 for Harmonia Mundi.

Are these the recordings where everyone says the microphones are placed farther from the band, giving a totally different sound than their later recs.? Are they preferrable to Arcana?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 07, 2009, 10:14:14 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on July 07, 2009, 10:07:14 AM
ok, so Festetics only recorded 33/42 (the flower cover?), and 77/103 for Harmonia Mundi.

Are these the recordings where everyone says the microphones are placed farther from the band, giving a totally different sound than their later recs.? Are they preferrable to Arcana?

77/103 has that cover, but MY copy of 33/42 has that white and black cover that HM uses for reissues. I've now forgot the name that HM used for that sub-label, starts with a Q though...

I don't have 33/42 or 77/103 on Arcana so I can't say. But judging by 9/17/20 & 50, I would go with the Arcana ones. But hey, that's just me. I don't have your particular obsession with comparative anatomy. If I like it, I keep it. If I don't like it, then I buy a different one. But I never buy 6 of something in order to end up with one that I will listen to and 5 that I won't. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 07, 2009, 10:33:10 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 07, 2009, 10:14:14 AM
If I don't like it, then I buy a different one.

oh, haha...you got me. Obviously, I can't afford to do that. I HAVE to like the one I get, or I go bonkers.

I used to regularly go to Tower, get a cd, hate it, put a scratch on it, and take it back. Yes, I KNOW that makes me a bad person... oh, and then I taught myself to ever so very gently open the shrink wrap, and if I hated the cd, I would simply SuperGlue the shrink wrap back together (of course I had a backlog of the shrink wraps from the cds that I kept). Oh, yes, I had all kinds of little tricks without actually stealing, and trust me, when cd OCD takes over, there's no telling WHAT someone is capable of. I just can't bear being stuck with a cd I don't want (especially if I actually, hum, PAID money for it, yeesh!). Oh yea, some of us record junkies...

Did you hear that, Tower execs.?... ok, I'm sorry, I won't do it again!

It wasn't me... it was the Schnittke talkin'...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on July 07, 2009, 10:40:41 AM

Music stores used to have listening stations so you could listen for as long as you want before deciding on a purchase. I haven't even seen a big music store for so long, I don't know if they still do that. But I do know that the little clips they have online tell you nothing at all about the recording.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on July 07, 2009, 10:57:03 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 07, 2009, 10:14:14 AM
77/103 has that cover, but MY copy of 33/42 has that white and black cover that HM uses for reissues. I've now forgot the name that HM used for that sub-label, starts with a Q though...

Quintana.

Q 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 07, 2009, 11:26:38 AM

Quote from: Que on July 07, 2009, 10:57:03 AM
Quintana.

Q 8)

Exactly so. Thanks. So, who's the über-geek now!? ;D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on July 07, 2009, 11:41:33 AM

Quote from: Que on July 07, 2009, 10:57:03 AM
Quintana.

That creep can roll!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on July 07, 2009, 01:11:19 PM

Quote from: DavidW on July 07, 2009, 09:37:41 AM
Merely alright, they [= Panocha Qt] might sing in Dvorak but their Haydn leaves me cold.

Opinions may vary as to the Panocha Qt: I don't think I'm the only one who rates their Haydn Op 76 very very high.

And funnily anough, I don't like all of their Dvorak recordings (for instance their op 97 Quintet somehow lacks compared to the British Hyperion recording. :o

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on July 07, 2009, 01:12:30 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on July 07, 2009, 09:09:04 AM
This is just my "final answer" to Haydn.

And what was Haydn's question?

Don't tell me he asked "Do you love me?"

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on July 07, 2009, 01:13:51 PM

Oh I haven't heard their Op 76 Herman, only their Op 55. I wasn't even aware that they had an Op 76 recording.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 08, 2009, 11:04:55 AM

Quote from: Herman on July 07, 2009, 01:12:30 PM
And what was Haydn's question?

Don't tell me he asked "Do you love me?"

;D ;D ;D...made me smile, haha!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 08, 2009, 11:38:23 AM

Caspar da Salo Op. 64/4-6:

Just arrived. Listened to twice.
Once again, this anonymous East German group plays with extreme crispness.

And I'll admit that the second three SQs seem a little more substantial than the first three. The Adagio. Cantabile e sostenuto of 64/4 was the first thing to catch my ear. Oh, and was that some pizz... some actual pizz in Haydn? in the menuet? Have I been missing something, or is Haydn not known for his pizz? Come to think of it, I can't recall too much pizz in any of the "classical" SQs I've been listening to. What's up with that?

It "appears" that this group takes zero repeats... anywhere...Gurn? One of the things I like about this set is how quickly it runs through. The Finale: Presto of "The Lark" is done with in 2:15. Still can't figure out where the Lark is though.

I think it was the Allegro of ~~No.6~~ (No.5 Allegro moderato) that had some "Beethovenian" sounding unison runs that sounded pretty cool and masculine (something else I haven't heard from Haydn's SQs until here).

Well, having 4-6 now obviously makes 1-3 sound "better" to me, haha, but yea, 4-6 do seem to have a bit more going for them. Still, this set is elusive for me... no "great" melodies to hang on to... I'm finding most of my interest in the menuets and finales. None of the slow mvmts. has really grabbed me yet, either. But this will be a good set to take one's time with and absorb. I could see how it could be a snore fest if one played it that way, but these players are so chipper and infectious! The playing is definitely making the music for me here.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on July 08, 2009, 11:40:50 AM

I'm glad that you like those string quartets, I had a feeling you would.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 08, 2009, 11:48:40 AM

Current favs (minus Opp. 1,2,9,17,50,55):

1) Op.20/5 in f minor
2) Op.20/2 in C major
3) Op.77/1
4) Op.77/2
5) Op.76/2 "Fifths"
6) Op.54/2 in C major (honorable mention)
7) Op.33/3 "Bird" (first mvmt.)
8) Op.33/6 (slow mvmt.)
9) Op.76/6 in Eb major (honorable mention)
10)

...still got a waaays to go...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on July 09, 2009, 03:27:35 AM

Quote from: opus106 on July 06, 2009, 07:47:56 AM
Yes, I'll agree with David to some extent. The Wow-factor may have faded away, but looking back we can still appreciate Haydn's 'experiments.'

Also true, mon vieux.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 10, 2009, 05:42:44 PM

What does listening to so much Haydn do to your brain ????

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 10, 2009, 05:46:13 PM

ok, K589 in Bb sounds the most like Haydn? ...anyone?...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 10, 2009, 05:58:34 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on July 10, 2009, 05:46:13 PM
ok, K589 in Bb sounds the most like Haydn? ...anyone?...

Why do you do this to yourself? ??? Mozart. It sounds like Mozart. :) I'll admit, it has nice elements of concision to it that are reminiscent of Haydn, who rarely rambled at all. In fact, the last 4 of Mozart's SQ's share this feature, moreso than the 6 that he dedicated to Haydn. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Collegium musicum 90 - Richard Hickox - Hob XXII 09 "Paukenmesse" pt 01 Kyrie

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on July 10, 2009, 06:41:50 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on July 10, 2009, 05:46:13 PM
ok, K589 in Bb sounds the most like Haydn? ...anyone?...

Nope, the melodies in the K 589 are something that Haydn would not have written. To provide a concrete example, just go back and forth, you'll hear a long, beautiful melody in K 589 mvt I, and then listen to Op 76 No 6 mvt I and you'll hear a very short melody. I guess that's also why I hear more of Haydn in Beethoven than I do Mozart, Beethoven tends to use short melodies as well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on July 10, 2009, 06:52:10 PM

Quote from: George on July 10, 2009, 06:43:50 PM
Yes, I said recently that Haydn is like Beethoven on Lithium. ;D

Stinker. ;D Yet you still want to buy those haydn concerti. hehehe ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on July 10, 2009, 06:59:10 PM

Quote from: George on July 10, 2009, 06:57:07 PM
I have matured. I used to listen to Haydn and wish he would take things further, more extreme dynamic shifts, more aggression, etc. I'm older now and can get down with some nice Haydn. Funny, I never had that problem with Mozart.

You know what's really funny? I sometimes feel the same way about Mozart (especially in the keyboard works) but Haydn always pleases me. 8)

Anyway if you are new to the concertos, check out the cello ones they are fantastic.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 11, 2009, 11:24:20 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 10, 2009, 05:58:34 PM
Why do you do this to yourself? ???

;DI did that on porpoise! nyuk,nyuk...even though, I did hear what you heard. (btw-that Festetics waaas HM, thanks)

Quote from: DavidW on July 10, 2009, 06:41:50 PM
Nope, the melodies in the K 589 are something that Haydn would not have written. To provide a concrete example, just go back and forth, you'll hear a long, beautiful melody in K 589 mvt I, and then listen to Op 76 No 6 mvt I and you'll hear a very short melody. I guess that's also why I hear more of Haydn in Beethoven than I do Mozart, Beethoven tends to use short melodies as well.

great analysis! That's what I've been looking for. I do notice that now that you mention it. thanks!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 11, 2009, 11:33:34 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on July 11, 2009, 11:24:20 AM
;D I did that on porpoise! nyuk,nyuk...even though, I did hear what you heard. (btw-that Festetics waaas HM, thanks)

:P I guess you've figured out what drives me crazy... ;)

Quotegreat analysis! That's what I've been looking for. I do notice that now that you mention it. thanks!

Yes, that is a nice short summary. Haydn (and Beethoven) both used a little figure and worked it out to the extreme. Mozart was a "long melodic line" kinda guy. I don't prefer one style or the other; I love 'em both! :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Berlin Philharmonic Wind Quintet - Danzi Op 67 #3 Wind Quintet #6 in Eb 2nd mvmt - Andante moderato

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 11, 2009, 11:58:09 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 11, 2009, 11:33:34 AM
:P I guess you've figured out what drives me crazy... ;)

Sorry, after all the recent fun, I couldn't resist :P.

...oh, wiseguy, eh?...

Can we discuss the diff/sims between M & H? That's why I picked K589, because I did hear that conciseness (and it's a late piece). And with Haydn, you can hear Mozart's chromatic influence in Op.54/1 (from the beginning), though it definitely comes out as only "part" of Haydn's overall entrenched style (more neat and clean than M), meaning that both composers, though cribbing from each other, still can't help but sound like themselves.

Also, K590 starts off with that unison run. Is that something new to M at the time? His intros don't usually start off so bold?

Any other SQ examples of "Oh, he learned that from Haydn", or "Oh, he learned that from Mozart"?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on July 11, 2009, 10:01:01 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on July 11, 2009, 11:58:09 AM

Also, K590 starts off with that unison run. Is that something new to M at the time? His intros don't usually start off so bold?

No, you silly. Listen to the E flat quartet, 428.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on July 12, 2009, 12:55:24 AM

Now this seems like a particularly promising release:

Homage à Sainte Cécile: Purcell, Hail Bright Cecilia. Handel, Ode for Saint Cecilia's Day. Haydn, Missa Cellensis. Naïve (2 CDs, October 2009). Marc Minkowski, Les Musiciens du Louvre

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on July 12, 2009, 12:37:42 PM

I had a great time this morning and the previous morning, playing the slow mvts of the Clock symphony and the Drum Roll*, at the request of our two-year old. "So beautiful!" she says as the music gets loud and the rhythm more insistent, as she's bopping along on the floor. ("Heel mooi!") I have a distant memory of listening to these symphonies when I was a young teenager; frankly I prefer my Haydn a little more subtle by now, but it was interesting to see our girl enjoying some good noise.

*Sandor Vegh on Orfeo

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: haydnguy on July 14, 2009, 06:33:46 PM

On my Haydn survey (Brilliant set):

Just finished:

Symphony No. 55 in E flat 'DER SCHULMEISTER'
Symphony No. 56 in C
Symphony No. 57 in D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on July 19, 2009, 06:33:58 AM

Quote from: DavidW on July 10, 2009, 06:59:10 PM
You know what's really funny? I sometimes feel the same way about Mozart (especially in the keyboard works) but Haydn always pleases me. 8)

These days I listen mostly to my favorites by Mozart (the Eb Divertimento, Don Giovanni, Cosi Fan Tutte, the String Quintets) and that's about it. I've separated alot of his works from being a) written specifically for royalty, b) written specifically for popular acceptance and c) written in adulation of Haydn, Bach, and/or Handel). Interestingly, the latter-era Haydn shows significant adulation of Mozart!

I can barely tolerate the more light, pretty works Mozart or Haydn these days. I still rock out to the late Haydn symphonies and the SQs from op. 20 on, but I just don't spin much else by him. It's amazing how tastes change...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on July 19, 2009, 09:19:40 AM

That's interesting Andy because I wanted to do the same with Bach. I figure that I might his private works so difficult because he wasn't concerned how the public audience would absorb and appreciate that music. I found his long, complex keyboard works impenetrable, but his cantatas and concertos are easy on the ear. I suppose it should be that way for other composers as well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on July 19, 2009, 09:41:45 AM

Quote from: DavidW on July 19, 2009, 09:19:40 AM
That's interesting Andy because I wanted to do the same with Bach. I figure that I might his private works so difficult because he wasn't concerned how the public audience would absorb and appreciate that music. I found his long, complex keyboard works impenetrable, but his cantatas and concertos are easy on the ear. I suppose it should be that way for other composers as well.

Maybe I just like some of the most challenging pieces best (hey, I listen to Wagner!). Strangely, I rarely feel Bach, except for the hits ("Air on a G", "Jesu", the famous Toccata, and select fugues like Ab minor, c# minor, Eb, several others).

Part of the reason I cooled off on alot of Mozart's work is because I found myself embarassed by some of his prettier pieces (even privately!). These days when I listen to the Haffner Serenade, I'm either bored or embarassed by the end of the first movement. Same goes for alot of the piano sonatas.

I fully realize how brilliant the overwhelming majority of his compositions are, I just don't like alot of them. Obviously Mozart is a spectacularly great composer, I have no delusions concerning that fact.

Same with Haydn. I notice I'm more apt to reach for his music these days than Mozart (especially the late string quartets).

I think we all have a simpatico with certain composers, it's just process of finding out WHO those specific composers are. For me it's by far mid-to-late era Beethoven, Wagner, Bruckner, and Richard Strauss.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on July 19, 2009, 09:56:25 AM

Well you seem to enjoy his greatest compositions, which means that you appreciate Mozart as a serious listener. It's the fanatic that craves any chamber work of his, any orchestral work of his, etc etc I bet I could still name you a small list of works from each genre (including solo keyboard) that you would adore. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on July 19, 2009, 10:36:08 AM

Quote from: DavidW on July 19, 2009, 09:56:25 AM
Well you seem to enjoy his greatest compositions, which means that you appreciate Mozart as a serious listener. It's the fanatic that craves any chamber work of his, any orchestral work of his, etc etc I bet I could still name you a small list of works from each genre (including solo keyboard) that you would adore. 8)

I try to pick out as favorites the kind of music that will keep me involved each listen. I listen to alot of Rock/Metal, so I have plenty of music that most of the time doesn't require as much concentration. When it comes to Our Music, I look for the stuff that was considered "for connosieurs only", "back in the day". It usually pays off over and over....endlessly.

The Divertimento in Eb is such a piece. Just a masterwork, each movement is both linked and yet separated from the others. There's so much emotionally involving nuance in the vast majority of that work that one could listen to it a million times and still get something from it.

Cosi Fan Tutte is an opera that at first seems quite surface and often kind of banal. Further investigations reveals it as one of the most intricate, ironic pieces Mozart ever wrote.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on July 19, 2009, 10:55:10 AM

Quote from: AndyD. on July 19, 2009, 09:41:45 AM
Part of the reason I cooled off on alot of Mozart's work is because I found myself embarassed by some of his prettier pieces (even privately!). These days when I listen to the Haffner Serenade, I'm either bored or embarassed by the end of the first movement. Same goes for alot of the piano sonatas.

I don't see the problem. I consider myself one big Mozart maven, but I'm not going to listen to a piece like the Haffnerserenade at home, why would I when I can listen to more intimate Mozart?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on July 19, 2009, 11:03:28 AM

Quote from: Herman on July 19, 2009, 10:55:10 AM
I don't see the problem. I consider myself one big Mozart maven, but I'm not going to listen to a piece like the Haffnerserenade at home, why would I when I can listen to more intimate Mozart?

This is a terrific point, thanks Herman!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 21, 2009, 12:57:46 PM

Haydn Op.50/Nomos SQ (CPO):

Well, I'd been looking forward to this, seeing as it seems everyone on this thread has this issue... and Gurn likes this set the best out of Haydn. Well, I'm tempted to say... uh... no, I just don't like it.

I've listened once through, and I'm really disappointed. I'm thinking this is the most unmemorable set I've heard so far, and considering I felt the same way about Opp. 33 & 64 (though I like them better now), that doesn't bode well for Op.50 & me.

I mean, I'm hearing nothing that jumps out at me (like "The Lark" for instance). I remember Gurn saying, "Just listen to the opening of 50/1,"... but I'm just not hearing it. Seriously, I think my zeal got me on this one. I was just starting to get Op.64, and I was totally falling for Op.33, so, I thought Op.50 must be...well, but... I'm just bored here... what's going on?? I just feel that the most boring parts of Opp.33/64 had just found a home. And especially after I went through Pleyel, Dittersdorf, and Boccherini (all around the same year, 1787-89).

I was also surprised that Op.50's SQs are @25min. a piece, as opposed to the much shorter 33/64 (unless the Nomos are just inflating Op.50 with lots of repeats). 50/2 is 27min. and 50/6 is 28min., whereas most of the Caspar da Salo Op.64 hovers around 17min. Is this a "repeats" issue, or is Op.50 just more substantial?

Anyway, Gurn, I'm not sure I see what you see here. What I hear are 6 really generic sounding SQs. I almost want to sell this immediately, but...errr, I won't...I'm just ticked that I took this Haydn train too far. Of course, there was no way I was NOT going to get this set. Arrrfff, I'm just ticked now...I need some Xenakis!

So, Op.55 is the only one I haven't heard (not counting 9 & 17). I'll be glad when this HaydnQuest is over. I just feel like I spent too much money. :-[Oy!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on July 21, 2009, 01:02:20 PM

Hmm, you don't like Haydn or Schubert. I forgot, do you like Mozart? What about Beethoven?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 21, 2009, 01:19:58 PM

Quote from: DavidW on July 21, 2009, 01:02:20 PM
Hmm, you don't like Haydn or Schubert. I forgot, do you like Mozart? What about Beethoven?

Schubert's the only one over whom I've had really soured expectations . And maybe with these Haydn SQs, it's Tovey's comment about Haydn going from one "masterpiece" to the next over which I take umbrage, as if Haydn can't note-spin? I do like a percentage of his 60-odd SQs; I'm just not prepared to give him blanket rule "just because".

Those "other two," haha...I was very pleasantly surprised by Mozart's SQs, and LvB's Op.18 sounded like perfected Haydn SQs, but then, after that LvB explodes into his own... like no one else. Yea, I like.

Sometimes I think these old timers just wrote too much.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on July 21, 2009, 04:49:07 PM

Try op. 50 by the Tokyo Quartet.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 21, 2009, 05:20:05 PM

Quote from: AndyD. on July 21, 2009, 04:49:07 PM
Try op. 50 by the Tokyo Quartet.

Well, that's the definitive performance. Although if he doesn't get it, I'm not sure that spending another $35 for the Arkiv version is going to make the difference. I'm beginning to think that maybe Xenakis is the way to go for this one... You know how the "modernists" say you just have to listen to a bunch of it and you will either get it or not? Well, the same is true of the Classicists, IMO. And a lot of it is the amount of personal 'baggage' that you bring with you. If your expectations are for one thing and they get something else, you just might never connect. I personally know a lot of Romantic fans who don't like Classical either. It just doesn't do what they think it should. :-\

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Christoph Prégardien \ Andreas Staier - D 911 Song Cycle for Voice & Keyboard "Winterreise" Book 1 #09 - Irrlicht

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 21, 2009, 06:06:23 PM

Quote from: DavidW on July 21, 2009, 01:02:20 PM
Hmm, you don't like Haydn or Schubert. I forgot, do you like Mozart? What about Beethoven?

snyprrr - I'm having the same feeling as David above - you've started numerous composer threads w/ little introductory information and then complain about virtually each one? Nearly all of these composers have been discussed in the past, and enjoyed by many of us - I'm just not sure 'what' you are trying to 'find' in these explorations? ??? ::)

Maybe you should be spending more time in the Diner in the 'non-classical music' thread - plenty of activity there, too! Don't know but up to you - :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: ChamberNut on July 21, 2009, 06:15:51 PM

I think Snyprrr does like Haydn and Schubert, et al. I just think I might be over analyzing and over dissecting the works and performances he's listening to. He's no doubt just as passionate about chamber music as some of us are (even more so). :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 21, 2009, 09:15:51 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 21, 2009, 05:20:05 PM
If your expectations are for one thing and they get something else, you just might never connect.

But, over the course of my current Haydn patronage (since April-May) my expectations have changed, to the point where I thought I knew what Op.50 was going to sound like, and, I was off by "just this much."

Hey, guys, I was pretty familiar with half these SQs 15 years ago (courtesy Kodaly), so I've already had this initial "disappointment" that I wasn't going to get Bruckner out of Haydn. That's not the issue here.

I "decided" to give Haydn another go due to the ABQ/Mozart... and also along, anyone else who might have happened to seem interesting. And I disagree, I haaave found pieces that are now absolutely essential to my understanding... and I actually like some of them too.

Actually, the "sound" that everyone says I'm never going to "find" in the classical era?,well, I haaave found it! It's in the Sturm&Drang Op.20/5, and the slow mvmt. of 20/2.

It's in Gretry's SQ Op.3 No.6 in c minor.

It's in the slow mvmt. of Haydn Op.33 No.6.

It's in the slow mvmt. of Mozart's Eb SQ.

It's in the first mvmt. of Schubert's No.1.

It's in LvB Op.18 No.3, first mvmt.

It's definitely in Haydn Op.54/2!

It's definitely in minor key Boccherini.

And, over the course of this "investigation" (into which I've invested), I have even learnt to acclimate myself to a certain era's sensibilities and enjoy even the pieces that I normally would not. So, maybe, Mid-period Haydn SQs (Opp.50-74 for me) aren't neccesarily my favorite. Doesn't mean I have Xenakis-disease, just means I've been plowin' through Haydn SQs and have started noticing specific phases,... I mean, c'mon guys... I think if you read the sum total of my threadage on this topic since May, you will see that you're being unfair. I have borne this pre-1800 SQ adventure with zeal and gusto, and would be glad to regale meeting Richter and Kraus and Wranitzky...

I am in a period of study here, so "like" isn't really a consideration, but hey!, along the way I actually liked some of this stuff. I don't have to like you in order to love you. I can understand, and still not like.

No, emphatically, no, Haydn is not the warmest composer I ever met.

Haydn himself said he was a businessman, to Kraus' dismay.

So please please forgive me for finding even any little slightest hint of the ordinary in ...

...calm down, snyprrr... deep breath...

;D

I challenge you all to a Haydn SQ-off!!! ::) ;DMost obscure wins...one shot...secret ballot... 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 21, 2009, 09:31:16 PM

Also, and right, I'm glad I didn't shoot for the Tokyo (was that an arkivdisc on Amazon?...yeeech :-X!), yet, but, I do kind of wish that the library would have had Op.50 rather than Op.33. I would have rather taken a blind leap with Op.33 rather than Op.50.

Gurn, you said Op.50 was your fav "set." THAT I can see. It's certainly the most consistently ingrained set from front to back, stylistically speaking, as you noted way back 8 pages ago or so... I think you said it had all the elements in perfect proportion,...I remember the word "vulgarity," or...

And, on that level, I agree. But, how many of these SQs individually are in your top ten, or twenty?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 21, 2009, 09:32:35 PM

And because I posted on 333 I am Masonically correct. Haydn would approve!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on July 21, 2009, 09:34:39 PM

I think I know the sound that you like.

Please give another listen to Beethoven's Op 95 and Op 131, and Schubert's "Death and the Maiden". If they are fresh in your mind, I would value your thoughts on those works. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on July 21, 2009, 09:37:30 PM

Oh and let me personally recommend the Vegh Quartet in Beethoven, and the Juilliard Quartet in Schubert.

Actually just try this recording-- http://www.amazon.com/Juilliard-String-Quartet-Beethoven-Schubert/dp/B0009VY6T6 (http://www.amazon.com/Juilliard-String-Quartet-Beethoven-Schubert/dp/B0009VY6T6)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on July 21, 2009, 09:44:30 PM

I think your biggest problem in appreciating Haydn, or anything, is you're much too text based. You go at Haydn with all kinds of quotes in mind (either or not misunderstood), such "Haydn himself said he was a businessman, much to Kraus' dismay" or such and so said this or that about op. 64.

IMO you're never allowing the music to speak for itself. You're always checking the music against what somebody sometime supposedly said, and, since this is the glorious internet, those quotes have been completely liberated from the context.

And then then there's your need to post about what you heard as fast as you can. There's no sinking in, no relistening. Bam, you have to react. That's a mistake. You don't have to react to Haydn. Haydn will remain the same, whether you give yourself the time to appreciate him or not. Your many posts about the "timings"? You could have used the time better to just quietly listen to some good music.

But I do agree, you have gotten to know some Haydn pieces, and appreciate them. Maybe now the time has come to stop the Project Haydn, and just go back to his music when you feel like it, rather than feeling like you have to prove or disprove something.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 21, 2009, 10:07:29 PM

Op.50/Nomos-Quartett:

Either way, the recording reminds me of that certain HIP CPO sound I've heard in Boccherini (not Nomos, though they play Op.32 4-6) and Pleyel. Nomos aren't HIP, but they sound like it here! Depending on the playing, I might have preferred the Kodaly here (how are they here?), price-wise, but that isn't to say that the Nomos play these SQs anything less than totally committed.

But, I ask, are they less aggressive than they could be, or is Op.50 itself less aggressive overall? I mean, they have snap.

Still, the music of Op.50 is hitting me as Haydn's most surface appeal set. I feel none of the gravitas of Op.20 or 54/2, like this is his "pop" album. It was written in 1787, at the time when influence-spillover was reaching its height. Op.50 reminds me more of Pleyel, Dittersdorf, Kraus, and Boccherini than Haydn. The opening of 50/2 sounds a lottt like Kraus' C major SQ. Is it heresy for me to think of Op.50 as an "opportunity" for Haydn to the point where he would shoot for the widest appeal possible? I mean, it does sound more like Dittersdorf's and Pleyel's more "popular" styles (though, I'm thinking secretly, "this" is what was popular back then???). So, am I crazy, or is this Haydn's most "popular-sounds-of-the-times" set? I'm finding it the most homogenous set so far (reminding me a lot of Boccherini Op.58 CPO)).

I mean, if I were being honest and wanting to understand, wouldn't I ask what are your particular favs in this set, and why?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on July 21, 2009, 10:35:55 PM

The Op. 50 string quartets were not popular for their time. They were considered by some to be cerebral. They were challenging works with peculiarities in melody and rhythm. They were not performed much, nor favored much by the audience of the time. To say that Op 50 is Haydn's "pop album", as you put it, is simply ridiculous.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 21, 2009, 10:58:15 PM

Quote from: Herman on July 21, 2009, 09:44:30 PM
I think your biggest problem in appreciating Haydn, or anything, is you're much too text based. You go at Haydn with all kinds of quotes in mind (either or not misunderstood), such "Haydn himself said he was a businessman, much to Kraus' dismay" or such and so said this or that about op. 64.

IMO you're never allowing the music to speak for itself. You're always checking the music against what somebody sometime supposedly said, and, since this is the glorious internet, those quotes have been completely liberated from the context.

The Kraus quote came from my Kraus cd.

I totally disagree. No one ever pointed me to 20/2. I just randomly heard the gothic opening of the second mvmt., and POW! I am only text based as far as I like to get as many points of view before I plunk down the dollars (and this dail-up isn't audio friendly!).

I feel that this Op.50 thing has been one of my few missteps in this "Project," though, as I said, how was I going to avoid Op.50?

Op.50 is definitely the one that's going to take the longest for me

Quote from: Herman on July 21, 2009, 09:44:30 PM
And then then there's your need to post about what you heard as fast as you can. There's no sinking in, no relistening. Bam, you have to react. That's a mistake. You don't have to react to Haydn. Haydn will remain the same, whether you give yourself the time to appreciate him or not. Your many posts about the "timings"? You could have used the time better to just quietly listen to some good music.

Of course I relisten! These are the only cds I have since everything's in storage! Of course I relisten... a few days ago I posted my current Haydn Top 10... hey, that's progress!!

Of course I have to react to Haydn. It's all about MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE after all, is it not? 0:)

(The "timings", yes, however, it brought the "repeat" to my attention.)

Quote from: Herman on July 21, 2009, 09:44:30 PMBut I do agree, you have gotten to know some Haydn pieces, and appreciate them. Maybe now the time has come to stop the Project Haydn, and just go back to his music when you feel like it, rather than feeling like you have to prove or disprove something.

Project Haydn ends with Op.55, though I'm curious about Opp.9/17 (but, they can wait). 55 is all that's left.

Hey, I "feel" like listening to Op.77 a lot. Two SQs...poof!...simple, perfect. Instant classics in my world. I didn't have to prove anything with them, they just were, and I heard. I'm having a harder time humming Op.50.

I disagree with all the criticism against me on this general topic. Is not the study of "new" music part of the woop and warf of what many of us here do? I declare that I have delved into classical era SQs with both feet, and have listened to about 12 composers, and have cds by 9 different composers...have learnt much...have "found" much...have read much and sought out composers...have sniffed through all possible available cds (lots OOP)...

I get the impression you all think I'm going through a phase, and yea, when I find myself buying a cd by a guy named Gretry, yea, maybe there I can see the end of this thing, but hey, I like to look for hidden masterpieces, that's what I do here in listening-for-pleasure land. And not everything is a masterpiece. And not every SQ by Haydn is a masterpiece.

But sometimes I get the impression that if I don't acknowledge every classical work as a masterpiece, the WigMeisters are gonna come after me.

I know a general rule around here is "If you can't say something nice..." well, I'd rather have both sides, if there are two sides.

I am surely by no means finished venting about Haydn, haha!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 21, 2009, 11:09:45 PM

Quote from: DavidW on July 21, 2009, 10:35:55 PM
The Op. 50 string quartets were not popular for their time. They were considered by some to be cerebral. They were challenging works with peculiarities in melody and rhythm. They were not performed much, nor favored much by the audience of the time. To say that Op 50 is Haydn's "pop album", as you put it, is simply ridiculous.

ok, fair enough... still reminds me of Pleyel and Dittersdorf a little.

Quote from: DavidW on July 21, 2009, 09:34:39 PM
I think I know the sound that you like.

Please give another listen to Beethoven's Op 95 and Op 131, and Schubert's "Death and the Maiden". If they are fresh in your mind, I would value your thoughts on those works. :)

Yes, you see.

Op.95 was the SQ that was revealed to me in this way, so uber-gothic. Op.131, same thing.

Schubert went too far for me. I expect murder victims to be falling out of his late SQs. I find the first mvmt. of No.4 the creepiest yet, though.

Basically, most of these composers seem to treat the key of "f minor" with a certain...you know? "c minor" also. But sometimes they can trick you with a genial and cloud free "g minor." So many of Haydn's minor key SQs seem to skirt the big boom booms (the 2 b minors, Op.42, the f#minor...).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 21, 2009, 11:11:48 PM

But, no, I didn't "get" Op.50 today. :-[

One day at a time! ::)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on July 21, 2009, 11:49:25 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on July 21, 2009, 10:07:29 PM
Still, the music of Op.50 is hitting me as Haydn's most surface appeal set. I feel none of the gravitas of Op.20 or 54/2, like this is his "pop" album. It was written in 1787, at the time when influence-spillover was reaching its height. Op.50 reminds me more of Pleyel, Dittersdorf, Kraus, and Boccherini than Haydn. The opening of 50/2 sounds a lottt like Kraus' C major SQ. Is it heresy for me to think of Op.50 as an "opportunity" for Haydn to the point where he would shoot for the widest appeal possible? I mean, it does sound more like Dittersdorf's and Pleyel's more "popular" styles (though, I'm thinking secretly, "this" is what was popular back then???).

String Quartets were a connoisseur genre. Not a popular art form. Sure, Haydn was aiming for success, however it was success with connoisseurs he was looking for.

Op. 50 was composed by Joseph Haydn. If you think these quartets sound more like "Pleyel, Dittersdorf, Kraus, and Boccherini than Haydn" then clearly you're working with the wrong presuppositions. Haydn sounds more like Haydn than like Boccherini.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 22, 2009, 10:22:25 AM

Quote from: Herman on July 21, 2009, 11:49:25 PMOp. 50 was composed by Joseph Haydn. If you think these quartets sound more like "Pleyel, Dittersdorf, Kraus, and Boccherini than Haydn" then clearly you're working with the wrong presuppositions. Haydn sounds more like Haydn than like Boccherini.

ok, maybe I shouldn't have said it like that, but I still find Op.50 "sounds" different. The SQs I have by all those other composers all center around the time 1787, when all these guys were supposedly "hangin out" together, so why is it such a thing to say that influence spillover must have been taking place?

Listen to Pleyel's "Prussian" SQs (1786). Boccherini Opp.39/41. Wasn't everyone writing in the same High Classical/"galant" style? The Op.50 notes state that during this time "the galant, sensible, dramatic and erudite styles have formed a grand synthesis (pg.25)".

I mean, Haydn wasn't sounding like Op.20 anymore. And Op.50 doesn't really sound like Op.33. And, to my ears, Op.50 doesn't sound sooo much like later Haydn.

errr...I have to get off the computer >:(...hold that thought...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on July 22, 2009, 10:28:09 AM

Don't use galant and high classical interchangeably. They are different. Rococo galant style was one of the two precursors to the Viennese Classical style.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 22, 2009, 10:50:52 AM

Also, around the same time, wasn't Mozart's influence being felt for the first time? In Op.50, too? (I hear a little more chromaticism here, for Haydn)

All I'm saying is that at this juncture (1987) it seems that influence spillage is at its highest. I mean, Mozart would be gone in a few more years...I'm wondering when exactly his 6 "Haydn"SQs were first published.

Can we agree that Op.50 sounds different/more advanced than Op.33?

Maybe a lot was going on, influence wise, between 1781-87? I feel like you all think I'm "infected" with Newman's Own and don't have ears or a brain. If I'm hearing something, I'm hearing something... and what I hear in Op.50 is not what I hear in Op.33, or 54/2, or "The Lark." I doooo hear Op.50 in parts of Op.64, though.

Maybe I should have said,"Pleyel sounds most like the Haydn of Op.50." Still, I hear some Kraus in 50/2... so, therefore I believe that influence is/was a two way street.

Anyhow, whatever,...still, Op.50 "sounds" different to me than previous Haydn SQs (which should be obvious), but, also sounds different than even the very next opus, Op.54.

I've been listening to this thing for the past 24hrs. I'm tired. :P

btw- the big surprise was the SQ in f#minor, with the "destiny motif" of LvB's Sym.No.5. Funny!

btw- this CPO/Op.50 has some of the best notes ever!

Nap time!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 22, 2009, 10:54:18 AM

Quote from: DavidW on July 22, 2009, 10:28:09 AM
Don't use galant and high classical interchangeably. They are different. Rococo galant style was one of the two precursors to the Viennese Classical style.

ok... maybe "Viennese Classical" IS the "grand synthesis" they were talking about?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on July 22, 2009, 10:57:45 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on July 22, 2009, 10:50:52 AM
I feel like you all think I'm "infected" with Newman's Own and don't have ears or a brain.

I apologize for being brusque. No offense intended. Keep up the posting! 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 22, 2009, 06:24:05 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on July 22, 2009, 10:50:52 AM
Also, around the same time, wasn't Mozart's influence being felt for the first time? In Op.50, too? (I hear a little more chromaticism here, for Haydn)

All I'm saying is that at this juncture (1987) it seems that influence spillage is at its highest. I mean, Mozart would be gone in a few more years...I'm wondering when exactly his 6 "Haydn"SQs were first published.

The "Haydn Quartets" were composed from mid-1783 and finished in January 1785. They weren't published as such until later, Mozart gave him manuscripts of them in early (March?) 1785. Haydn used chromaticism much earlier, and was far more daring than Mozart ever was in the use of odd keys (look, f# :o !). Believe me when I tell you that all influence in the string quartet genre from 1765 to 1800 flowed FROM Haydn, not TO him. :)

QuoteCan we agree that Op.50 sounds different/more advanced than Op.33?

I should hope so. A lot of water under the bridge between 1781 and 1787. We're talking literally dozens of compositions here, and lots of changes in music in that time. I'm not saying that Mozart didn't influence Haydn in any way musically, just not in string quartet writing.

QuoteMaybe a lot was going on, influence wise, between 1781-87? I feel like you all think I'm "infected" with Newman's Own and don't have ears or a brain. If I'm hearing something, I'm hearing something... and what I hear in Op.50 is not what I hear in Op.33, or 54/2, or "The Lark." I doooo hear Op.50 in parts of Op.64, though.

Certainly Haydn didn't REinvent the quartet every time he sat down with pen in hand. Structural ideas that he liked got carried forward. But he viewed composing like solving a puzzle. He made a rhetorical statement and then argued it to the end. This is a big piece of the puzzle that's missing in historical performance. His audience (in this case other musicians) thought that way too. Today, it is highly unlikely that any of us does. This is why reaching a true understanding of the music is so hard (dare I say impossible?).

QuoteMaybe I should have said,"Pleyel sounds most like the Haydn of Op.50." Still, I hear some Kraus in 50/2... so, therefore I believe that influence is/was a two way street.

Pleyel was Haydn's student. The likelihood of his music, especially the earlier works sounding like his teacher's is pretty high, don't you agree? Kraus' quartets date from 1782, IIRC, and so the influence on them of Op 33 is more likely than that they influenced Op 50. Haydn held Kraus in high esteem (so he said). When 2 prolific, highly capable composers speaking the same musical language are writing in the same genre, it shouldn't be a surprise to hear structural, harmonic or even melodic similarities. What do you call influence? Sonata-allegro first movement form? Rondo finales (ala Mozart)?

QuoteAnyhow, whatever,...still, Op.50 "sounds" different to me than previous Haydn SQs (which should be obvious), but, also sounds different than even the very next opus, Op.54.

They were unique. Op 54-55 were also unique. 7c. &c. &c.

QuoteI've been listening to this thing for the past 24hrs. I'm tired. :P

btw- the big surprise was the SQ in f#minor, with the "destiny motif" of LvB's Sym.No.5. Funny!

btw- this CPO/Op.50 has some of the best notes ever!

Nap time!

The f# is a very nice piece of work. It is rather unique in the set, and among Haydn's other quartets too. It is very taut and concise. He uses the minor mode to inject unsettled tension into the work, not the sort of pathos that he used it for in the Stürm und Dräng period. It is not "conversational" like the other quartets in Op 50. He also ends up the first movement in a rather satisfying way, not in the frequently tragic sort of way that he typically did with sonata movements up til then. He also doesn't use a coda, so when the end is reached, it is rather abrupt and sort of throws the weight of drawing some satisfaction onto the later movements. This is a "Big Deal", since it marks a very early effort in the trend that moved the finale into the spotlight instead of the opening movement.

The second movement is a Haydn trademark set of double variations (Andante), and you will notice that it, too, ends rather sharply with no sense of conclusion. This once more throws the weight of the work forward, with even more momentum towards the finale. Notice this in the third movement minuet; mode is tied to texture. All the major mode sections are homophonic and all the minor ones are contrapuntal. I personally rather like that, it's a neat idea, well executed.

Finally the 4th movement. You can see that Haydn prepared this rather well in the 3rd movement. It is in the minor mode, so it must be contrapuntal, yes? Right, it's a fugue. When you listen to it again, note that many of the bits (Haydn didn't use 'themes' as such, he used little building blocks and worked the hell out of them) showed up earlier in the work, like the falling 6th that dominated the first movement (for example, the F#-A in bar 1-2). There are lots of these examples throughout the fugue. Listen for them, they're cool when you spot them. :) Anyway, this is a deeper work than you would want to give it credit for. It is agitated throughout, not at all pathetic, and it reaches no satisfying conclusion. This sets it diametrically opposite to the standards of the times.

I'm not saying that you have to like it, but you do have to respect it. There is nothing shallow in Haydn, nothing at all. He was one of the great musical minds of all time. He forced me to read a lot of books in an effort to understand what he was trying to say to me. I only have a glimmer, but that's a start. I'm not dead yet, so I have more time to learn. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Christopher Hogwood - K 576b 355 Minuet in D for Keyboard 1st mvmt - Minuetto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 22, 2009, 06:51:47 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 22, 2009, 06:24:05 PM
Certainly Haydn didn't REinvent the quartet every time he sat down with pen in hand. Structural ideas that he liked got carried forward. But he viewed composing like solving a puzzle. He made a rhetorical statement and then argued it to the end. This is a big piece of the puzzle that's missing in historical performance. His audience (in this case other musicians) thought that way too. Today, it is highly unlikely that any of us does. This is why reaching a true understanding of the music is so hard (dare I say impossible?).

That's exactly why I've had such a problem with these things for so long, because he IS the schoolmaster, and he IS teaching... but, I've learned...I've been trying to listen to these things with different ears.

I certainly think sooome of us can be trained to listen like that!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 22, 2009, 06:57:29 PM

btw- that was a great post Gurn, thanks.

The b minor and f# minor SQs were always my heartbreak in the beginning, because they didn't deliver the S&D (which, from my background...). Now I hear them as very late LedZeppelin...very refined statements of proto-metal...hey, it works for me.

However, the one piece of music that reminds me the most of Op.50 is Pettersson's No.9. It's the "amount" of information, not the content.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on July 22, 2009, 07:09:26 PM

Hey I have an idea! Just maybe music is NOT best explained by simile. :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 22, 2009, 07:17:59 PM

In My Time of Dy-y-y-ing!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: bhodges on July 22, 2009, 07:18:55 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 22, 2009, 06:24:05 PM
I'm not saying that you have to like it, but you do have to respect it. There is nothing shallow in Haydn, nothing at all. He was one of the great musical minds of all time. He forced me to read a lot of books in an effort to understand what he was trying to say to me. I only have a glimmer, but that's a start. I'm not dead yet, so I have more time to learn. :)

This great paragraph ends a beautiful post. Kudos. 8)

--Bruce

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on July 23, 2009, 01:49:40 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 22, 2009, 06:24:05 PM
The "Haydn Quartets" were composed from mid-1783 and finished in January 1785. They weren't published as such until later, Mozart gave him manuscripts of them in early (March?) 1785. Haydn used chromaticism much earlier, and was far more daring than Mozart ever was in the use of odd keys (look, f# :o !). Believe me when I tell you that all influence in the string quartet genre from 1765 to 1800 flowed FROM Haydn, not TO him. :)

I should hope so. A lot of water under the bridge between 1781 and 1787. We're talking literally dozens of compositions here, and lots of changes in music in that time. I'm not saying that Mozart didn't influence Haydn in any way musically, just not in string quartet writing.

Certainly Haydn didn't REinvent the quartet every time he sat down with pen in hand. Structural ideas that he liked got carried forward. But he viewed composing like solving a puzzle. He made a rhetorical statement and then argued it to the end. This is a big piece of the puzzle that's missing in historical performance. His audience (in this case other musicians) thought that way too. Today, it is highly unlikely that any of us does. This is why reaching a true understanding of the music is so hard (dare I say impossible?).

Pleyel was Haydn's student. The likelihood of his music, especially the earlier works sounding like his teacher's is pretty high, don't you agree? Kraus' quartets date from 1782, IIRC, and so the influence on them of Op 33 is more likely than that they influenced Op 50. Haydn held Kraus in high esteem (so he said). When 2 prolific, highly capable composers speaking the same musical language are writing in the same genre, it shouldn't be a surprise to hear structural, harmonic or even melodic similarities. What do you call influence? Sonata-allegro first movement form? Rondo finales (ala Mozart)?

They were unique. Op 54-55 were also unique. 7c. &c. &c.

The f# is a very nice piece of work. It is rather unique in the set, and among Haydn's other quartets too. It is very taut and concise. He uses the minor mode to inject unsettled tension into the work, not the sort of pathos that he used it for in the Stürm und Dräng period. It is not "conversational" like the other quartets in Op 50. He also ends up the first movement in a rather satisfying way, not in the frequently tragic sort of way that he typically did with sonata movements up til then. He also doesn't use a coda, so when the end is reached, it is rather abrupt and sort of throws the weight of drawing some satisfaction onto the later movements. This is a "Big Deal", since it marks a very early effort in the trend that moved the finale into the spotlight instead of the opening movement.

The second movement is a Haydn trademark set of double variations (Andante), and you will notice that it, too, ends rather sharply with no sense of conclusion. This once more throws the weight of the work forward, with even more momentum towards the finale. Notice this in the third movement minuet; mode is tied to texture. All the major mode sections are homophonic and all the minor ones are contrapuntal. I personally rather like that, it's a neat idea, well executed.

Finally the 4th movement. You can see that Haydn prepared this rather well in the 3rd movement. It is in the minor mode, so it must be contrapuntal, yes? Right, it's a fugue. When you listen to it again, note that many of the bits (Haydn didn't use 'themes' as such, he used little building blocks and worked the hell out of them) showed up earlier in the work, like the falling 6th that dominated the first movement (for example, the F#-A in bar 1-2). There are lots of these examples throughout the fugue. Listen for them, they're cool when you spot them. :) Anyway, this is a deeper work than you would want to give it credit for. It is agitated throughout, not at all pathetic, and it reaches no satisfying conclusion. This sets it diametrically opposite to the standards of the times.

I'm not saying that you have to like it, but you do have to respect it. There is nothing shallow in Haydn, nothing at all. He was one of the great musical minds of all time. He forced me to read a lot of books in an effort to understand what he was trying to say to me. I only have a glimmer, but that's a start. I'm not dead yet, so I have more time to learn. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Christopher Hogwood - K 576b 355 Minuet in D for Keyboard 1st mvmt - Minuetto

An outstanding, easy-to-grasp post. You've outdone yourself again, Gurn.

In regard to studying up on Haydn in order to fully appreciate him, I had to do that with Wagner and Beethoven as well. It completely worked.

I still believe that, in terms of innovation and the daring that comes with it, Haydn just had it all day over J.S. Bach and Mozart.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on July 23, 2009, 02:29:38 AM

I, too, want to applaud Gurn's post on the Op. 50 &c. if we all had the patience and the understanding, how much more would we enjoy the music. I'm going to listen to 50/4 during lunch now.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on July 23, 2009, 05:08:20 AM

Quote from: Herman on July 23, 2009, 02:29:38 AM
I'm going to listen to 50/4 during lunch now.

Turns out I know that one very well. I'm just not sure I like the Nomos version that much.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 23, 2009, 05:36:51 AM

Quote from: Herman on July 23, 2009, 05:08:20 AM
Turns out I know that one very well. I'm just not sure I like the Nomos version that much.

One thing I thought about the Nomos' versions right from the first is that they were not cookie-cutter, they did a few decidedly individual things. I need to make a little list of those so I don't get confused ( ::) I DO get confused, dammit >:( ) and I would be interested to talk about them. Very shortly after the landmark Tokyo set was released, autographs in Haydn's handwriting of either 4 or 5 of the quartets turned up in... Australia! Anyway, it turns out that there had been a lot of editorial changes piled up on these works over the years, some of them crucial. I only bring this up because it is possible that Nomos are playing from a finally-released original version. Don't know, I've entered the realm of wild speculation. :)

8)

PS - BTW, thank you all for your kind consideration of my earlier post. Some things in life are worth laying it out there for. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on July 23, 2009, 05:42:46 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 22, 2009, 06:24:05 PM

The second movement is a Haydn trademark set of double variations (Andante), and you will notice that it, too, ends rather sharply with no sense of conclusion.

I've always loved those "I'll scratch your back if you scratch mine" trills that travel up from the cello through the rest of the ensemble - just like everybody else does.

I relistened to the Tatrai, and I'll give the Nomos another spin if two-year old allows. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Haffner on July 23, 2009, 05:56:43 AM

This might sound kind of dubious and clumsily put, but as far as op. 50, 1-2 goes, I feel the Tokyo Quartet like no other. For the rest of Opus 50, I'm spinning the Quatuor Festetics. And that's temporarily forgetting the whole HiP fetish thang.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 23, 2009, 06:31:15 AM

Quote from: AndyD. on July 23, 2009, 05:56:43 AM
This might sound kind of dubious and clumsily put, but as far as op. 50, 1-2 goes, I feel the Tokyo Quartet like no other. For the rest of Opus 50, I'm spinning the Quatuor Festetics. And that's temporarily forgetting the whole HiP fetish thang.

I'm listening to the QF f# as I write this. I really do enjoy the way the cello has to work in the 1st mvmt. Everything seems built on that base, simple as it is. I really like the Tokyo set too, it is very difficult to find fault with. If I wasn't such a fanatic about gut string sound et al, that would be the one for me. Still though, it is nice to hear other takes on it, like the Nomos' and the Kodaly's too. The Kodaly are surprisingly good in some of these, especially #1 and #4. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on July 23, 2009, 06:34:27 AM

Quote from: Herman on July 23, 2009, 05:42:46 AM
I relistened to the Tatrai, and I'll give the Nomos another spin if two-year old allows. ;)

I see. The difference is that the Tatrai take the andante and especially the 2nd theme with great gravitas, whereas the Nomos are rather fleet and light. Both approaches are equally valid.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 23, 2009, 07:19:35 PM

~~LvB 18/3 is 50/4. Just listen to the opening flourish of each!~~
EDIT:

Yea, I know, you all think I'm nutz. What I meant to say was LvB 18/3 came from Haydn 50/6? Both are in D major, making the allusion even more telling.

50/6...not 50/4

But please, listen to the opening flourish of each. It sure sounds like LvB cribbed this little sonic "footprint" just like 50/4 contains the "destiny motif."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 27, 2009, 08:27:26 PM

Op.33/ Lindsays:

I just got the second cd (3,5,6). My compare was the Kodaly.
My first notice was how the Lindsays take the intro to "The Bird" very differently from the Kodaly. The Kodaly take it pretty straight (which i liked), but the Lindsays start the opening eighth notes too quietly for my taste; however, once the rest of the instruments come in, and volume is acheived, the Lindsays' perkiness takes over wonderfully.

Generally, I like the Lindsays' chirpy/perky way with Haydn. They always take finales at breakneck speed(without faltering) and their articulation is always crisp. The opening of "The Bird" was the first choice I wasn't too happy with, but hey, if that's about it, well, that's not too bad.

I was particularly fond of the Kodaly's Op.33, though. The Unitarian sound combined the ensemble in a much different way (than the Lindsays) and gave the Kodaly performance a kind of beer hall um-pah type festive lilt that I found most winning.

I think also the Kodaly won me with the slow mvmt. of No.6, which the Lindsays don't take quite as...how to say?...

So far, I have "felt" the Kodaly best in Op.33 & Op.77; however, the trade-off here in Op.33 is fair: perhaps I like the Kodaly's overall ambience better, but the Lindsays' less sumptuous acoustic yields very crisp playing (No.4 might be the best example: each group brings something different to the table (though, of course, the Kodaly's sound has nothing to do with their playing)).

Indeed, I'm finding Op.33 to be my "happy" favorite, very chirpy and bluff, very easy to just put on and let run. All the SQs are fairly short and bouncy, contrasting nicely with Op.20 and op.50. I just like the general, consistant quality of the writing in this set, from SQ to SQ. Honestly, I'd love to hear someone go off on this set!

Despite heeded warnings about Cropper's intonation, and any other faults the Lindsays may or may not have, I have found their Haydn recordings intellectual yet conversational, and maddenly probing (in the good way), finding many little nuggets that I've heard others miss (though, as I said, in "The Bird" I thought one of their choices, though not poor, I would consider "controversial"). Maybe the best thing about their survey is the "music making merriment" feeling I get from them that really makes you believe in every note they're playing (they sure seem to!); and, also, I might say that as far as the "cheap" Haydn sweepstakes goes, I might just recommend any Lindsay over any Kodaly, though, that in no way takes away from my appreciation of the Kodaly's acheivement. uh, nevermind, both sets are sooo different that it's hard to compare.

So, on to Op.55!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 27, 2009, 08:51:26 PM

Op.55/ Lindsays:

Ha, my last post was No.365, and yes, I feel like I've been listening to Haydn for a year straight! However, I have reached the end, pretty much, of my quest to reaquaint myself. All that's left are Opp.9/17, and, unless I suffer a severe bout of OCD, they can wait (and I think I am set on the Festetics here (oh, like me Gurn, please like me, haha ;D)). And though I've heard the whole set, I don't have an Op.76 (I'm really contemplating Takacs here... anyone?).

So, I hadn't heard Op.55 since the Kodaly about 12-14 years ago (which apparently didn't make such a big impression on me). Op.55 wasn't all that stocked for choices, so, between the new META4 and Lindsays, I went with the guys who haven't let me down yet (I have one Op.20, both Op.33, and Op.55).

Of course I went for the f minor, No.2, first (I had been chomping to hear this), and LO!, once again I was surprised. For some reason I had expected it to burst through the barn doors, but hey!, it starts off with the slow mvmt.! As the SQ progressed, I was struck by the general mellowness... yes, it appears as though Haydn is very over the Strm&Drng! I can see why the Kodaly might have bored me with this piece earlier.

So far, the unison opening of No.3, and No.3 overall, have made the biggest impression on me (especially the whizzy finale... like a rocket! (reminds me of LvB Op.18/1 finale?)). No.1 has eluded me so far, though, it does appear to have some of the chirpiest and high flying lead violin.

Finally having Op.55 makes understanding Op.54 (Endellion) a little easier. So, NOW Herman!, I can listen to Haydn at my leisure! ;D

Any suggestions as to where to start?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on July 28, 2009, 01:25:34 AM

Thanks for bumping the "Mozart Fraud" topic several times while a concerted effort is underway to let it quietly die.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on July 28, 2009, 06:05:58 AM

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/weta_haydn2009_bmp1.bmp)

Haydn 2009 - The String Quartets (Part 2) (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=592)

Op.9

Opus 9 was Haydn's first set of string quartets conceived as a series and was composed between 1768 and 1770, appearing in print 1771 or a year later. Haydn entered them into his work register in the order of Nos. 4, 1, 3, 2, 5, and 6, but the publisher Huberty (Paris) changed them around to the ordering we know today. Like all quartets before op.33, they get short shrift. Like all quartets of Haydn that get short shrift, they're still superb. With almost 70 quartets total, it's difficult to complain that listeners make priorities, and it's certainly not outrageous that op.9 are not among them. But they shouldn't be ignored, either, and for the ambitious Haydn lover, they're joyously requisite listening.

Op.9 marks the moment where Haydn moves away from the 'Quartettdivertimenti" and aligns the string quartet with the four movement symphony: a fast movement followed by a minuet with a trio, then a slow or modestly paced movement and then a fast finale. (Analogous to Symphonies Nos. 32 and 37.) That Haydn saw the beginning of a new genre in these works is underscored by the fact that he later asked his publisher Ataria to include op.9—not the two previous sets opp.1 and 2—as the earliest string quartets in the complete string quartet edition Ataria wanted to publish.

The Buchberger Quartet (Brilliant) tend to open the quartets with a very fast first movement (especially no.1, no.5, no.6); we get a much more deliberate Moderato from the Kodály Quartet (Naxos)—befitting the intermittent 'pedal point' in no.1, lavish in no.5, sensuous in no.6, but notably less nippy...

(continued at WETA (//http:///%3E%3Cbr%20/%3EOp.9%20marks%20the%20moment%20where%20Haydn%20moves%20away%20from%20the%20'Quartettdivertimenti%22%20and%20aligns%20the%20string%20quartet%20with%20the%20four%20movement%20symphony:%20a%20fast%20movement%20followed%20by%20a%20minuet%20with%20a%20trio,%20then%20a%20slow%20or%20modestly%20paced%20movement%20and%20then%20a%20fast%20finale.%20(Analogous%20to%20Symphonies%20Nos.%2032%20and%2037.)%20That%20Haydn%20saw%20the%20beginning%20of%20a%20new%20genre%20in%20these%20works%20is%20underscored%20by%20the%20fact%20that%20he%20later%20asked%20his%20publisher%20Ataria%20to%20include%20op.9%E2%80%94not%20the%20two%20previous%20sets%20opp.1%20and%202%E2%80%94as%20the%20earliest%20string%20quartets%20in%20the%20complete%20string%20quartet%20edition%20Ataria%20wanted%20to%20publish.%3Cbr%20/%3E%3Cbr%20/%3EThe%20Buchberger%20Quartet%20(Brilliant)%20tend%20to%20open%20the%20quartets%20with%20a%20very%20fast%20first%20movement%20(especially%20no.1,%20no.5,%20no.6);%20we%20get%20a%20much%20more%20deliberate%20Moderato%20from%20the%20Kod%C3%A1ly%20Quartet%20(Naxos)%E2%80%94befitting%20the%20intermittent%20'pedal%20point'%20in%20no.1,%20lavish%20in%20no.5,%20sensuous%20in%20no.6,%20but%20notably%20less%20nippy.))

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on July 28, 2009, 06:16:23 AM

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/weta_haydn2009_bmp1.bmp)

Continuing "Haydn 2009"

Haydn 2009 - The Seven Last Words (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=593)

QuoteI.

And they took Jesus, and led him away. And, bearing his cross, he went to a place called the place of skulls, which in Hebrew is called Golgotha, where they crucified him / and the criminals, one on the right hand, and one on the left. Then Jesus said: "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."

(John, 19: 17, 18, 23, 33, 34)

The "Seven Last Words" have been put to music by many composers, but the name we most associate with them—apart from Jesus—is Haydn. But if our Seven Words of choice are Haydn's, which version? The one most have come to think of, is the version for string quartet op. 51 Hob XX/1B. It's the most often performed and recorded. But it is not the original, which was commissioned by the Brotherhood of Santa Cueva as an 'instrumental oratorio' for the 1787 Good Friday service at Cádiz, then an enormously wealthy city thanks to the 'trade' with the Americas. The grotto's renovation and expansion featured works by the greatest artists of the time, including paintings by Goya, so adding music by the greatest contemporary composer only made sense. The music was the stopgap between the pronouncement of the seven last words and lectures thereon. The result was a string of seven (eight, actually) adagios, each lasting about ten minutes—a challenge and feat that a master of slow movements like Haydn was predisposed to excel at...
Continued at WETA (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=593)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 28, 2009, 06:20:45 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on July 28, 2009, 06:05:58 AM
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/weta_haydn2009_bmp1.bmp)

Haydn 2009 - The String Quartets (Part 2) (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=592)

Op.9

London Haydn Quartet/Festetics: "That's in stark contrast to the HIP Quatuor Festetics' recording of op.9 (their entire cycle has just been re-released on Arcana) who sound like spirited amateurs compared to the blend of finesse and verve of the new recording".

>:( >:( >:(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on July 28, 2009, 06:34:17 AM

Hey he did say spirited, so it's not all bad. ;)

Op. 9 are historically significant string quartets, even if they are not written in his mature high classical style, and it's nice to see an article just on them.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 28, 2009, 06:43:41 AM

Quote from: DavidW on July 28, 2009, 06:34:17 AM
Hey he did say spirited, so it's not all bad. ;)

I will try to see the glass as half full. ;)

Nice article, for sure.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on August 02, 2009, 08:14:07 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on July 28, 2009, 06:43:41 AM
I will try to see the glass as half full. ;)

Nice article, for sure.

:)

How is that Festetics box treating you? I've been anxiously awaiting...any standouts?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 02, 2009, 02:22:57 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on August 02, 2009, 08:14:07 AM
How is that Festetics box treating you? I've been anxiously awaiting...any standouts?

Hi, snyprrr. Encouraged by Jen's article and especially for the "spirited amateurs" thing (referred to the Festetics), this week I again listened (several times) the Op. 9 of the Quatuor Festetics (Arcana, DDD, 1998) and The London Haydn Quartet (Hyperion, DDD, 2007).

It was a rewarding experience, completed with some readings about features of these works, dates, editions, etc., which I always understand only partly because I am not musician and I don't have any formal training in musical theory.

Anyway, I was seriously thinking, for example, what means the marking "Moderato" in the broad first movements of this opus (excepted the numbers 5 and 6, marked "Poco Adagio" and "Presto", respectively): Means Moderato "that the speed is a moderate one- not too fast or too slow", or "moderately fast"? The Grove, for instance, says: "Moderato itself was included in Brossard's Dictionaire (1703) as meaning 'with moderation, discretion, wisdom, etc., neither too loud, nor too soft, nor too fast, nor too slowly, etc.' – a definition which is in itself a sign of a new generation in tempo and expression marks, one in which for the first time even the ordinary had to be explained. Curiously, Rousseau (1768) gave modéré as the equivalent of the Italian adagio, the second of his five main degrees of movement in music. Since the early 19th century, moderato has most often appeared either alone or in the compounds allegro moderato (a little slower than allegro) and andante moderato (a little faster than andante)". For me is rather illustrative that Haydn uses the expression "Poco Adagio" in the String Quartet No. 5 in B flat Major because this means that he was probably thinking another thing when he marked "Moderato" in the remaining quartets of the set.

Also I was thinking about the word "amateur" used by Jens in his article because it's (historically) a very effective condemnation for the Festetics. On this same board some excellent lines have been written (especially by Gurn, I recall) about the notions of "professional" and "amateur" in the second half of the XVIII century. And, certainly, the string quartet is one of the archetypes of music written in order to be performed by professionals: the non-Hausmusik par excellence (together with the symphonies).

Well, come backing to the Op. 9, my opinion is that the Festetics are by far better than The Haydn London Quartet. The issue is not about the quality or skills of the performers, but about their complementation like an ensemble and especially about tempi and articulation. For instance, just listen to the "Moderato" of the older and more famous quartet of the group (String Quartet No. 4 in D minor): there The London Haydn Quartet plays as if it were marked "Adagio" or "Poco Adagio", with a rather monotonous articulation, when it is compared with the Festetics. It's not matter of speed (8':28 v/s 7':28), but a matter of articulation and rhetorical intensity. Or just looks towards the third movement of the same quartet: It's true that the Festetics performance is not so "sweetened" and "concertante" (even virtuosistic in the first violin part) as The Haydn London Quartet is; but it is clearly more in the spirit of the string quartet form, with a more conversational sense, even when the design itself of the piece is a bit "concertante".

IMO the Quatuor Festetics has achieved one of the tops in the Haydn discography of the last years, together with names like the Van Swieten Trio (complete piano trios for Brilliant) and Ronald Brautigam (complete piano sonatas on Bis).

Below the Festetics and The London Haydn Quartet performing the first movement of the String Quartet No. 4. The first example was posted by me some months ago (Reply #101, with a strong recommendation), when I didn't know the Festetics yet:

http://www.divshare.com/flash/playlist?myId=7218363-0da

http://www.goear.com/files/external.swf?file=52b854a

Obviously, I understand another opinions. All of this is a matter of taste and tastes differs.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bulldog on August 02, 2009, 03:01:06 PM

After listening to the two samples, I have to say I prefer the London Haydn performance although its tempo is significantly slower than the "Moderato" marking. The group has a more blended sound than the Festetics who sound rather coarse and not entirely on the same page. I got a very comfortable feeling from the London Haydn, but got nothing from the Festetics.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 02, 2009, 03:10:26 PM

Quote from: Bulldog on August 02, 2009, 03:01:06 PM
After listening to the two samples, I have to say I prefer the London Haydn performance although its tempo is significantly slower than the "Moderato" marking. The group has a more blended sound than the Festetics who sound rather coarse and not entirely on the same page. I got a very comfortable feeling from the London Haydn, but got nothing from the Festetics.

Those are the "risks" when you put examples, Don. A democratic exercise. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on August 02, 2009, 03:43:13 PM

Well Antoine Marchand, I listened to both tracks and I agree 100% with you. The Festetics Quartet plays passionately, and the London Haydn Quartet is dull as dishwater. The latter makes Haydn sound pretty and that's it, the former found the emotional heart of the piece.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 02, 2009, 07:42:04 PM

Quote from: DavidW on August 02, 2009, 03:43:13 PM
... the former found the emotional heart of the piece.

Exactly my own feelings about that performance. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on August 02, 2009, 10:09:28 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on August 02, 2009, 02:22:57 PM
It's true that the Festetics performance is not so "sweetened" and "concertante" (even virtuosistic in the first violin part) as The Haydn London Quartet is; but it is clearly more in the spirit of the string quartet form, with a more conversational sense, even when the design itself of the piece is a bit "concertante".

IMO the Quatour Festetics has achieved one of the tops in the Haydn discography of the last years, together with names like the Van Swieten Trio (complete piano trios for Brilliant) and Ronald Brautigam (complete piano sonatas on Bis).

Since I've praised the FQ Haydn here for quite some time it will not come as a surprise: Hear, Hear.. :)

QuoteBelow the Festetics and The London Haydn Quartet performing the first movement of the String Quartet No. 4. The first example was posted by me some months ago (Reply #101, with a strong recommendation), when I didn't know the Festetics yet:

I was not familiar with the London Haydn Quartet recording, but this is quite a telling comparison. I'm actually rather surprised that what on the basis of this sample comes across as rather toned down, prettified and very underarticulated - especially in all instruments other than the 1st violin, does so well in the ears of others? ::) Where is the Haydnesque wit? Where is the interplay? :o The London Haydn Qt fell into the pitfall of trying to seek for emotional depth by "spinning out" this music in longwinded "delicacies".

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on August 02, 2009, 10:28:22 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on August 02, 2009, 02:22:57 PM
IMO the Quatour Festetics has achieved one of the tops in the Haydn discography of the last years, together with names like the Van Swieten Trio (complete piano trios for Brilliant) and Ronald Brautigam (complete piano sonatas on Bis).

I take it you mean that part of the discography that is HIP? There have been various non-HIP Haydn recordings, too, which you possibly do not take into account?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 04, 2009, 06:04:25 AM

Quote from: Herman on August 02, 2009, 10:28:22 PM
I take it you mean that part of the discography that is HIP? There have been various non-HIP Haydn recordings, too, which you possibly do not take into account?

Hi, Herman. I'm mainly interested in historically informed performances when Haydn is concerned because I "rediscovered" his music with this kind of performances. Before the HIP performances his music sounded to me boring and monotonous. But I'm not dogmatic at all in this matter (different case with Baroque music) and, for example, some of my preferred performances of the piano sonatas are played by Alfred Brendel on modern piano (wonderful renditions) and Helmut Müller-Brühl has some excellent symphonies played on modern instruments too (although following rather HIP oriented practices). IMO the sets mentioned above are tops of the Haydn discography considering different parameters (HIP or non-HIP); but certainly there are many others. In short, those are, IMO, just three valuable examples of the-state-of-art in Haydn performance.

BTW, which do you prefer, Haydn HIP or non-HIP?

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on August 04, 2009, 09:19:00 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on August 04, 2009, 06:04:25 AM

BTW, which do you prefer, Haydn HIP or non-HIP?

Like you, I think most of us are (not that I can speak on others' behalf) non-ideological. I love Brendel in Haydn, as do you, and I love the Quatuor Mosaique above all in the string quartets. Not because they are HIP but because they are good. I have, neither in Bach, nor in Haydn, nor in Beethoven, discovered anything that will make either HIP or non-HIP inherently better than the other. Only ideological inflexibility can hurt--and even that doesn't necessarily detract. John Butt is probably pretty ideological about OVPP, but he still creates very fine music. Karajan was also pretty ideological about his particular sound, and he, too, created some stunning interpretations. But those who take the best of both worlds, like Paavo Jaervi in Beethoven, to name but one example, can often come up with something that's yet still even better. Both, HIP and non-HIP need each other to keep themselves on their toes, to explore new venues (not all of which lead necessarily somewhere) and to keep pushing the envelope and question "tradition" which is sometimes just "yesterday's bad habit" or sometimes "organic improvement".

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on August 06, 2009, 09:29:46 PM

Op.33:

It seems Op.33 is divided between 1-4, with Allegro moderato 1st mvmts and Presto finales, and 5-6, which have Vivace assai 1st mvmts and Allegretto finales. Any other unifying factors?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on August 08, 2009, 08:36:26 AM

So, who here got that Tokyo/Op.50 DG set on Ebay? ;D

It went for $26. I wonder, if my dail-up would have "allowed" me to, my $27.01 would have won the day? (yea, I reallly didn't want to spend $30 for this)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on August 08, 2009, 09:02:19 AM

Not counting 54/2 or 76/2,

What is your fav Haydn SQ "menuet"?

Tentatively, mine is 33/3, "The Bird" (it really seems this is where Jadin got the idea for his extraordinary menuet of Op.1/3).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 08, 2009, 09:44:08 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on August 08, 2009, 08:36:26 AM
So, who here got that Tokyo/Op.50 DG set on Ebay? ;D

It went for $26. I wonder, if my dail-up would have "allowed" me to, my $27.01 would have won the day? (yea, I reallly didn't want to spend $30 for this)

Em, probably not. That's just where the others gave up. I've seen it go for $50+ before, that's why I didn't bid on it. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03 49 Quartet in D for Strings Op 50 #6 1st mvmt - Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on August 08, 2009, 11:19:37 AM

But you already haaave one!!! ::) Not fair!!! :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 08, 2009, 12:37:13 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on August 08, 2009, 11:19:37 AM
But you already haaave one!!! ::) Not fair!!! :P

I bought mine as a download about 4 years ago. I would like to have the disks though. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03 49 Quartet in D for Strings Op 50 #6 4th mvmt - Finale: Allegro con spirito

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on August 08, 2009, 12:39:10 PM

Don't know why the snips is so emotional, he doesn't even like those SQs! I guess that's the sign of a true cd collector, they'll even obsess over oop rare recordings of works they despise. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 08, 2009, 12:43:38 PM

Quote from: DavidW on August 08, 2009, 12:39:10 PM
Don't know why the snips is so emotional, he doesn't even like those SQs! I guess that's the sign of a true cd collector, they'll even obsess over oop rare recordings of works they despise. ;D

He's probably coming around now, and realizes (as many of us do) that if you don't get it now, there may never be another chance. One day, Op 50 will be the only 4tets he listens to... :D

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03 57 Quartet in C for Strings Op 54 #2 1st mvmt - Vivace

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on August 08, 2009, 12:53:29 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 08, 2009, 12:43:38 PM
He's probably coming around now, and realizes (as many of us do) that if you don't get it now, there may never be another chance. One day, Op 50 will be the only 4tets he listens to... :D

It's not even particularly rare. The availability as an ArkivCD (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=149404&source=WETA) (highly recommended) keeps the price down at Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001KW976A/nectarandambr-20).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 08, 2009, 12:57:36 PM

Yes, Arkiv is the best choice, if you don't mind CD-R's (which I don't). Having 3 of them on Amazon right now, and at that price, is by far the exception than the rule though. Usually they don't have any, and when they do, I've seen them in the $75 range. Rather much for a pair of Galleria disks. :-\

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03 57 Quartet in C for Strings Op 54 #2 3rd mvmt - Menuetto: Allegretto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on August 08, 2009, 01:01:37 PM

I have the Tokyo's op 76. It's not my first listening choice (by un shot longa).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 08, 2009, 02:13:07 PM

Quote from: Herman on August 08, 2009, 01:01:37 PM
I have the Tokyo's op 76. It's not my first listening choice (by un shot longa).

Yeah, I do too. Their Op 50 is a benchmark, IMO. There is a lot more competition in Op 76. Their's is good, but others are better. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03 58 Quartet in G for Strings Op 54 #1 1st mvmt - Allegro con brio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on August 08, 2009, 02:21:09 PM

Quote from: jlaurson on August 08, 2009, 12:53:29 PM
It's not even particularly rare. The availability as an ArkivCD (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=149404&source=WETA) (highly recommended) keeps the price down at Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001KW976A/nectarandambr-20).

That's really cool, arkiv rocks! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on August 09, 2009, 12:42:21 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 08, 2009, 02:13:07 PM
Yeah, I do too. Their Op 50 is a benchmark, IMO. There is a lot more competition in Op 76. Their's is good, but others are better. :)

I'll keep my eyes peeled for the op. 50 box.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on August 09, 2009, 09:50:49 AM

You guys crack me up. ;D

What's your fav Haydn SQ "menuet"?, not counting 76/2 or 54/2?

Mine would be 33/3.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on August 14, 2009, 10:12:58 AM

Jacob's Creation seems to have arrived:

http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002LBD4U4/worldtwitch06 (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002LBD4U4/worldtwitch06)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gabriel on August 14, 2009, 10:16:35 AM

Quote from: erato on August 14, 2009, 10:12:58 AM
Jacob's Creation seems to have arrived:

http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002LBD4U4/worldtwitch06 (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002LBD4U4/worldtwitch06)

If it follows the traces of his Jahreszeiten, it will be a must.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 14, 2009, 10:18:04 AM

Quote from: erato on August 14, 2009, 10:12:58 AM
Jacob's Creation seems to have arrived:

http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002LBD4U4/worldtwitch06 (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002LBD4U4/worldtwitch06)

Super, can hardly wait to hear it. Any luck it will be this side soon. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on August 17, 2009, 12:56:31 PM

Op.71

Anyone have any particular thoughts about this opus? I think it is one of the "rarer" opus numbers, meaning there aren't all that many interesting "off" brands to choose from; however, I did uncover some:

Auryn SQ/Tacet I/II: two? versions, on the same label?... the 1993 is hopelessly OOP.

Chilingirian SQ/CRD

Griller SQ: this sounds like a sleeper (avail w/Op.74). Does anyone know this?

Brentano SQ: 1999/live

Lindsay SQ/ASV: this comes from the tale end of their survey. I don't know anyone who has ventured this far.. I don't know whether to trust them this far.

The HIP contigent is only represented by Festetics and Solomon (on an outrageous 3 cds w/Op.74!). Does this seem like a particularly good opus for the HIP "sound"?

The usual suspects round out the top 10: Tatrai, Angeles, Kodaly, Amadeus, Aeolian. I'm wondering if the Kodaly might be the dark horse here? I don't see any reason why they might not be the best here. I have only heard the Amadeus, which was one of their bests sets, as I recall.

I'll admit that Op.71 didn't leave a great impression on me back in the spring. All I really remember is the fake ending finale of No.2, and the Eb similarities of No.3 with 76/6. Right now, I couldn't tell the difference between 71/1, 74/1, or 76/1! But, I am looking forward to becoming reaquainted with Op.71 at some point.

Insights? ???

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 28, 2009, 01:31:12 PM

*bump*

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 28, 2009, 02:35:24 PM

Gurn - believe that I've been posting some of my recent 'box purchases' in other related threads - to many to keep tract! ;) ;D

First, I still have that lira organizzata disc recommended by Antoine & Gurn on my 'wish list' - will obtain soon! :)

Just to put some of my recent purchases here from other threads, as quoted below:

Piano Trios - now have the two sets shown below, one w/ period instruments and the other on modern ones - both excellent!

Piano Sonatas - on fortepiano; my third set of the piano sonatas - should be enough! ;D

QuoteHaydn, Joseph - Piano Trios w/ the Haydn Trio Eisenstadt (http://www.haydntrioeisenstadt.at/hte/englisch/hteindex.htm); 8-CD set using a modern piano but played in a fashion reminding me more of the fortepiano - just half way through this set; a total of 39 works are recorded; so far quite impressed w/ this group - some excellent reviews quoted on the Naxos Website (http://www.naxos.com/reviews/reviewslist.asp?catalogueid=Phoenix161&languageid=EN) - my other set is also shown below, i.e. Van Swieten Trio using a fortepiano - love this set, also; for the price of these boxes & depending on the instruments preferred, difficult to see either one being a disappointment - no longer have my BAT 2-CD sampler, so will not be able to make a comparison. :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/639958931_UHw6B-O.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VMS5SAR7L._SS500_.jpg)

QuoteHaydn, Joseph - Piano Sonatas on various fortepianos; doing my second go-around w/ this 10-CD box set - I'm amazed that despite using five different keyboardists, the quality & consistency of the performances are quite uniform across the set; this is my third collection of these works (boy, they're so cheap!), but this one would be a good set for those just wanting one - :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/618086317_z7asZ-S.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 28, 2009, 05:43:34 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on September 28, 2009, 02:35:24 PM
Gurn - believe that I've been posting some of my recent 'box purchases' in other related threads - to many to keep tract! ;) ;D

First, I still have that lira organizzata disc recommended by Antoine & Gurn on my 'wish list' - will obtain soon! :)

Just to put some of my recent purchases here from other threads, as quoted below:

Piano Trios - now have the two sets shown below, one w/ period instruments and the other on modern ones - both excellent!

Piano Sonatas - on fortepiano; my third set of the piano sonatas - should be enough! ;D

Dave,
Is there ever really enough? :D I have just 2 sets of keyboard sonatas. In the interest of authenticity, I use Schornsheim for all the early works on the clavicembalo and clavichord, and Brautigam on the 'fortepiano for sure' works, IOW, post-1780.

Anyway, the reason I bumped this was to have a place to post about my most recent project. Feedback and helpful advice are always welcome. :)

In the last 5 years I have compiled the complete works of Mozart and Beethoven. As complete as if to say 'everything that they wrote that has been recorded'. They each took about a year, and as much as possible, they consist in each work in 2 versions; one on modern instruments and one on period instruments (PI). There are actually some Mozart works that are only available on PI, and some Beethoven that is NOT available on PI. But in any case, if you want to hear a work, any work, by either one of them, I can play it for you. :) By way of organizing them, the Mozart are sorted by Köchel numbers and the Beethoven by Biamonti numbers, since both of those systems are as chronological as one can hope for t this point in time. All the CD's are ripped to highest quality MP3 and sorted in appropriately named folders. The research involved in all this was substantial but not insurmountable, anyone who was inclined to do this for him/herself would be able to do it reasonably easily. :)

Now for the fun part. I decided that since I was able to do all that, I would be able to knock off the Haydn works with equal dexterity. Wrong! :o Haydn is most likely the greatest unknown composer still at large. :) Yeah, sure, you can get lots of his music, much of it on PI even, but when it comes to knowing anything about him, like even when much of it was written, well, good luck to you.

I started by deciding that the only way to organize such a huge collection was by year of composition (YoC). And I still think so. But you see how naive I was, about half or more of the works, the YoC is unknown, or at best it falls within a 3-5 year span. The end result is doing a hell of a lot of the research myself, and sometimes making an informed guess on just where to put things. Since that's what the pros are doing, I don't feel quite so badly about doing it myself. :)

So now I am about 60% done with this project. The setup for listening couldn't be better. In any given year, you will have a couple of symphonies, some divertimentos, string quartets, a concerto, some baryton works, a piano trio or two, some sonatas, some masses, some songs, maybe even an opera or oratorio. In short, a big cross-section of listening pleasure, so a great payoff for the time and frustration investment.

If anyone is interested in this sort of thing, have a post here and discuss. BTW, there could well be other composers who would benefit from this same treatment. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Camerata Berolinensis - Hob 05 11 Trio in Eb for Strings 2nd mvmt - Tempo di Menuet

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on September 28, 2009, 05:47:56 PM

Did you actually find a concerto per year? I thought he only wrote a small handful and I figured it was in the late stages for most and then a few early keyboard concertos. Not trying to nitpick because knowing you, it could be literal and while most people have 5 you have like 40! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 28, 2009, 05:53:20 PM

Quote from: DavidW on September 28, 2009, 05:47:56 PM
Did you actually find a concerto per year? I thought he only wrote a small handful and I figured it was in the late stages for most and then a few early keyboard concertos. Not trying to nitpick because knowing you, it could be literal and while most people have 5 you have like 40! :D

No, I wasn't being literal in that sense, I just meant that in any given year you could have one. Actually, with the exception of the Lira concertos, he didn't write more than one a year, they are spread out from <>1756 (the first organ concerto) to 1796 (the trumpet concerto). There are actually quite a few in between there too, but not one in each year. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Franz Josef Haydn - Hob 02 07 Divertimento in C for Wind Sextet 2nd mvmt - Menuetto I

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 28, 2009, 06:25:44 PM

Gurn - are you goin' 'overboard' on these analyzes? ;) ;D

I suggest shooting some more feral pigs, then Susan & I will fly into Texas for dinner - I'll bring some wine from my cellar! :)

But great post & looking forward to further discussion! Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on September 28, 2009, 06:28:07 PM

I would like to see if there is a trick to redirect his energy to sort out the chronology of Bach's work. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 28, 2009, 06:34:44 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on September 28, 2009, 06:25:44 PM
Gurn - are you goin' 'overboard' on these analyzes? ;) ;D

I suggest shooting some more feral pigs, then Susan & I will fly into Texas for dinner - I'll bring some wine from my cellar! :)

But great post & looking forward to further discussion! Dave :)

:D

Well, the research and history is the main thing for me, Dave. It is an end in itself, so to speak. Plus, I get to listen to so much great music along the way, it's worth every bit. :)

I got another pig yesterday, in fact, although it was with my car :-\ No damage done to either of us since I had slowed to a crawl over a wooden bridge, but we all got a shock, especially the pig. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Tafelmisik / Lamon Bylsma - Hob 07b 1 Concerto in C for Cello 3rd mvmt - Allegro molto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on September 28, 2009, 06:37:53 PM

Oh sing with me!

Green acres is the place to be!
Farm living is the life for me!

:D

(http://www.mentalfloss.com/blogs/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/450arnoldziffel.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Joe Barron on September 30, 2009, 01:29:45 PM

My preview of an upcoming all-Haydn concert may be seen here (http://www.montgomerynews.com/articles/2009/09/30/entertainment/doc4ac3a89bd7c22516927507.txt). It won't teach you experts anything you don't already know, but at the beginning of this thread, Gurn said he wanted to focus on lesser-known stuff, and every piece on this program is lesser known.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 30, 2009, 01:39:42 PM

Quote from: Joe Barron on September 30, 2009, 01:29:45 PM
My preview of an upcoming all-Haydn concert may be seen here (http://www.montgomerynews.com/articles/2009/09/30/entertainment/doc4ac3a89bd7c22516927507.txt). It won't teach you experts anything you don't already know, but at the beginning of this thread, Gurn said he wanted to focus on lesser-known stuff, and every piece on this program is lesser known.

Great story, Joe, thanks for the link. If I lived in Philadelphia, I would most certainly be there. Your story does clarify the point that I brought up in my post the other night; dating some of these works is more than a little difficult. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Franco on September 30, 2009, 02:06:57 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 28, 2009, 05:43:34 PM
Dave,
Is there ever really enough? :D I have just 2 sets of keyboard sonatas. In the interest of authenticity, I use Schornsheim for all the early works on the clavicembalo and clavichord, and Brautigam on the 'fortepiano for sure' works, IOW, post-1780.

Anyway, the reason I bumped this was to have a place to post about my most recent project. Feedback and helpful advice are always welcome. :)

In the last 5 years I have compiled the complete works of Mozart and Beethoven. As complete as if to say 'everything that they wrote that has been recorded'. They each took about a year, and as much as possible, they consist in each work in 2 versions; one on modern instruments and one on period instruments (PI). There are actually some Mozart works that are only available on PI, and some Beethoven that is NOT available on PI. But in any case, if you want to hear a work, any work, by either one of them, I can play it for you. :) By way of organizing them, the Mozart are sorted by Köchel numbers and the Beethoven by Biamonti numbers, since both of those systems are as chronological as one can hope for t this point in time. All the CD's are ripped to highest quality MP3 and sorted in appropriately named folders. The research involved in all this was substantial but not insurmountable, anyone who was inclined to do this for him/herself would be able to do it reasonably easily. :)

Now for the fun part. I decided that since I was able to do all that, I would be able to knock off the Haydn works with equal dexterity. Wrong! :o Haydn is most likely the greatest unknown composer still at large. :) Yeah, sure, you can get lots of his music, much of it on PI even, but when it comes to knowing anything about him, like even when much of it was written, well, good luck to you.

I started by deciding that the only way to organize such a huge collection was by year of composition (YoC). And I still think so. But you see how naive I was, about half or more of the works, the YoC is unknown, or at best it falls within a 3-5 year span. The end result is doing a hell of a lot of the research myself, and sometimes making an informed guess on just where to put things. Since that's what the pros are doing, I don't feel quite so badly about doing it myself. :)

So now I am about 60% done with this project. The setup for listening couldn't be better. In any given year, you will have a couple of symphonies, some divertimentos, string quartets, a concerto, some baryton works, a piano trio or two, some sonatas, some masses, some songs, maybe even an opera or oratorio. In short, a big cross-section of listening pleasure, so a great payoff for the time and frustration investment.

If anyone is interested in this sort of thing, have a post here and discuss. BTW, there could well be other composers who would benefit from this same treatment. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Camerata Berolinensis - Hob 05 11 Trio in Eb for Strings 2nd mvmt - Tempo di Menuet

Very impressive. I like the idea of listening to a year's worth of Haydn, and from what you describe it would be a nice cross section of works. I can only dream of having your discipline and persistence. But, maybe on a smaller scale I might attempt a similar project, if only for a few years that might include some works that I already love. I am planning on getting the Trinity Church box of the masses, and a each one might act as the centerpiece that I build a year around.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on September 30, 2009, 02:22:14 PM

Thanks to Gurn I've just the 12th, 44th and 64th by Hsu and the Apollo Ensemble - what a neat take this ensemble gives. The chamber-like qualities can become quite startling, such as in the finale of the 44th, where the introduction almost sounds as if performed by a string quartet ::) This is definitely the kind of style I enjoy in the symphonies - an earthy sound, and also a non-metronomic pulse. Like Solomons and Hogwood, I find it to be quite joyful musicmaking (not that other performers do not excel in other areas).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Joe Barron on September 30, 2009, 03:00:45 PM

I'm going through the complete symphonies now, but since others already seem to be engaged in that project, I'll spare you my comments.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on September 30, 2009, 04:19:45 PM

Quote from: Joe Barron on September 30, 2009, 03:00:45 PM
I'm going through the complete symphonies now, but since others already seem to be engaged in that project, I'll spare you my comments.

How come? I'm sure you'll have some differing opinions to any others.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 30, 2009, 04:27:38 PM

Quote from: Franco on September 30, 2009, 02:06:57 PM
Very impressive. I like the idea of listening to a year's worth of Haydn, and from what you describe it would be a nice cross section of works. I can only dream of having your discipline and persistence. But, maybe on a smaller scale I might attempt a similar project, if only for a few years that might include some works that I already love. I am planning on getting the Trinity Church box of the masses, and a each one might act as the centerpiece that I build a year around.

Franco,
That sounds like a great start to building up your collection. You can make it a long range thing simply by starting there, then as you get more things add them in. I think you will be pleased with the results. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Collegium musicum 90 - Richard Hickox - Hob 22 05 'Missa Cellensis' pt 12 - Credo - 'Credo in unum Deum': Vivace

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 30, 2009, 04:32:08 PM

Quote from: Lethe on September 30, 2009, 02:22:14 PM
Thanks to Gurn I've just the 12th, 44th and 64th by Hsu and the Apollo Ensemble - what a neat take this ensemble gives. The chamber-like qualities can become quite startling, such as in the finale of the 44th, where the introduction almost sounds as if performed by a string quartet ::) This is definitely the kind of style I enjoy in the symphonies - an earthy sound, and also a non-metronomic pulse. Like Solomons and Hogwood, I find it to be quite joyful musicmaking (not that other performers do not excel in other areas).

Delighted you like those, Sara. Sometimes my recs are pretty good (or as we say in Texas, even a blind hog finds an acorn sometimes :D ). I was buying that disk totally blind, I had never heard of the ensemble before even (although Hsu is a famous player of the baryton), but like you, I was very pleasantly surprised when I played it. One of the few ensembles that rivals Solomons', IMO. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Collegium musicum 90 - Richard Hickox - Hob 22 05 'Missa Cellensis' pt 12 - Credo - 'Credo in unum Deum': Vivace

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 30, 2009, 04:33:04 PM

Quote from: Joe Barron on September 30, 2009, 03:00:45 PM
I'm going through the complete symphonies now, but since others already seem to be engaged in that project, I'll spare you my comments.

Please don't, I hate being spared... :-\

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Collegium musicum 90 - Richard Hickox - Hob 22 05 'Missa Cellensis' pt 13 - Credo - 'Et incarnatus est': Largo

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on September 30, 2009, 09:06:58 PM

Which is the best performance of Symphony 80?

The only one I have is Scherchen's. That recording has made me love the music, but surely there's a better perrformance.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on October 01, 2009, 04:26:51 AM

I have versions by Dorati and Fischer, both in the complete box sets.
They are both very good, but my vote would go to Fischer for a better recording, excellent playing and transparency of the orchestra and lively accounts of the fast movements. The problem is that you would have to buy the box set ...... but there are some good deals on Internet and you will discover some more gems in the lesser-known middle period symphinies

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 01, 2009, 07:15:45 AM

Quote from: alkan on October 01, 2009, 04:26:51 AM
I have versions by Dorati and Fischer, both in the complete box sets.
They are both very good, but my vote would go to Fischer for a better recording, excellent playing and transparency of the orchestra and lively accounts of the fast movements. The problem is that you would have to buy the box set ...... but there are some good deals on Internet and you will discover some more gems in the lesser-known middle period symphinies

Thanks -- but I really want to try and avoid buying all 104. I know it's irrational, but I kind of feel I will drown in so much music all at once. I know . .

But if Fischer is so interesting, I guess I will have to get his set.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 01, 2009, 07:20:33 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 01, 2009, 07:15:45 AM
Thanks -- but I really want to try and avvoid doing buying all 102. I know it's irrational, but I kind of feel I will drown in so much music all at once. I know . .

But if Fischer is so interesting, I guess I will have to get his set.

Elements of the Fischer set are readily available, usually in boxes of up to 5 disks that span perhaps 10-12 symphonies. So you don't have to buy the big box. I bought my own Fisher that way, back when they were still on Nimbus. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on October 01, 2009, 07:33:35 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 01, 2009, 07:15:45 AM
I know it's irrational, but I kind of feel I will drown in so much music all at once. I know . .

That's a wonderful way to go !!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Peregrine on October 01, 2009, 07:49:45 AM

New, complete set from Dennis Russell Davies and the Kammerorchester Stuttgart to appear soon:

http://bit.ly/nYiFf

http://bit.ly/1nMShM

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on October 01, 2009, 07:54:49 AM

Quote from: Peregrine on October 01, 2009, 07:49:45 AM
New, complete set from Dennis Russell Davies and the Kammerorchester Stuttgart to appear soon:

Wow !! These just appeared from nowhere! Are there any reviews available?
I listened to some of the clips, and I was not overwhelmed. But it's difficult to judge on the basis of a few early symphonies.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on October 01, 2009, 08:14:31 AM

Quote from: Peregrine on October 01, 2009, 07:49:45 AM
New, complete set from Dennis Russell Davies and the Kammerorchester Stuttgart to appear soon:

http://bit.ly/nYiFf

http://bit.ly/1nMShM

I don't know what you mean by to appear soon. This was available about 2 months ago already as I mentioned in reply #35 in this thread:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,13719.20.html

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on October 01, 2009, 08:29:27 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 01, 2009, 07:15:45 AM
Thanks -- but I really want to try and avvoid doing buying all 102. I know it's irrational, but I kind of feel I will drown in so much music all at once. I know . .

But if Fischer is so interesting, I guess I will have to get his set.

Go to MDT. They currently have the Nimbus Fischer set on sale - a series of 5CD box sets containing about 20 symphonies each. For example, US $28 gets you symphonies 70-81 or 93-104, and $22 gets you the Paris symphonies.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on October 02, 2009, 04:37:39 AM

What is the preferred complete set of string quartets at a reasonable price? (under $100)
I see four widely available ones at Amazon................I am ready to take the plunge but need advice, I like dramatic colorful presentations as opposed to relaxed polished style, I like HIP style but can go modern instruments as long as we have lively rythms, please help........

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PaTpNaJXL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41MqpQ1SmRL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/510YvdmCHHL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Yi2Ug8ewL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

1)Kodaly SQ - Naxos
2)Angeles SQ - Phillips
3)Aeolian SQ - Decca
4)Buchberger SQ - Brilliant

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2009, 04:48:18 AM

I would get the Buchbergers and never look back. They meet every requirement, even being semi-PI (gut strings tuned to A=440).

Angeles = Bland
Aeolian = Romantic
Kodaly = better than the above, but not as good as Buchberger.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on October 02, 2009, 04:57:21 AM

Quote from: DarkAngel on October 02, 2009, 04:37:39 AM
What is the preferred complete set of string quartets at a reasonable price? (under $100)
I see four widely available ones at Amazon................I am ready to take the plunge but need advice, I like dramatic colorful presentations as opposed to relaxed polished style, I like HIP style but can go modern instruments as long as we have lively rythms, please help........

1)Kodaly SQ - Naxos
2)Angeles SQ - Phillips
3)Aeolian SQ - Decca
4)Buchberger SQ - Brilliant

My useless advice: Don't do it, unless you already have many, many CDs of the SQ4ts that you truly love. Otherwise a complete box might (though that may not apply to everyone in the same way) be almost more hindrance than help in really discovering these works.
Then, if it must be any set, forget "complete" and buy the two Quatuor Mosaique sets on naive. Tre-men-dous!!!!

I've not heard the Aeolian and the Angeles... and neither Kodaly and Buchberger are the last word. Comparing the two side-by side, as I've been doing for my ongoing Haydn SQ4t pieces, I've found both lacking and complimentary. The Buchbergers are a bit rougher but also have more kick to it; the Kodalys have more ("conventionally"?) beautiful moments. Perhaps GMG-friends can pool their libraries and together upload one performance by each group of your favorite Haydn quartet, and one by each group of a lesser known one. That might help you decide.

(But again: scrap your plans and get Mosaique. ;) )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on October 02, 2009, 05:38:19 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on October 02, 2009, 04:57:21 AM
My useless advice: Don't do it, unless you already have many, many CDs of the SQ4ts that you truly love. Otherwise a complete box might (though that may not apply to everyone in the same way) be almost more hindrance than help in really discovering these works.
Then, if it must be any set, forget "complete" and buy the two Quatuor Mosaique sets on naive. Tre-men-dous!!!!

I've not heard the Aeolian and the Angeles... and neither Kodaly and Buchberger are the last word. Comparing the two side-by side, as I've been doing for my ongoing Haydn SQ4t pieces, I've found both lacking and complimentary. The Buchbergers are a bit rougher but also have more kick to it; the Kodalys have more ("conventionally"?) beautiful moments. Perhaps GMG-friends can pool their libraries and together upload one performance by each group of your favorite Haydn quartet, and one by each group of a lesser known one. That might help you decide.

(But again: scrap your plans and get Mosaique. ;) )

Thanks for the info JL
I actually did already order one of the Mosaique/Naive 5 CD sets a couple days ago................. :D

I was first turned on to these gems by getting the cheap Amadeus/DG Trio 3CD set, now I must have more, more, more.........

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on October 02, 2009, 05:46:10 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2009, 04:48:18 AM
I would get the Buchbergers and never look back. They meet every requirement, even being semi-PI (gut strings tuned to A=440).

Angeles = Bland
Aeolian = Romantic
Kodaly = better than the above, but not as good as Buchberger.
8)

Thanks Gurn,
From the limited info at Amazon from customers and short sound samples I was leaning towards getting the Buchberger SQ set, plus seems to have good modern sound also.

I also recently ordered this boxset of complete Haydn piano trios from Brilliant......

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51K84MKR8JL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on October 02, 2009, 05:52:32 AM

Quote from: DarkAngel on October 02, 2009, 05:38:19 AM
Thanks for the info JL
I actually did already order one of the Mosaique/Naive 5 CD sets a couple days ago................. :D

Good. Very good. Wait until you've gone through that set twice before making another move. :)

QuoteI was first turned on to these gems by getting the cheap Amadeus/DG Trio 3CD set, now I must have more, more, more.........

Don't bite off more than you can chew. And I don't mean "ability to perceive" but sheer time. I know all too well the desire to acquire... but I find that the one CD at a time days (which are a long time back for me) were much more rewarding for me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on October 02, 2009, 06:25:28 AM

Quote from: DarkAngel on October 02, 2009, 04:37:39 AMI like dramatic colorful presentations as opposed to relaxed polished style, I like HIP style but can go modern instruments as long as we have lively rythms, please help........

In that case avoid the Kodalys; according to my sampling (I've heard 3 or 4 of their readings) they fall under the "lavish and lovely" category rather than the "rough and ready."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2009, 06:58:10 AM

Quote from: DarkAngel on October 02, 2009, 05:46:10 AM
Thanks Gurn,
From the limited info at Amazon from customers and short sound samples I was leaning towards getting the Buchberger SQ set, plus seems to have good modern sound also.

I also recently ordered this boxset of complete Haydn piano trios from Brilliant......

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51K84MKR8JL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Don't think you'll be at all disappointed with that. I've held off on buying it because it comes in the Big Box plus I have the BAT and 1790 sets already, but that doesn't reflect in any way on my opinion of the performances. The couple disks I've heard were very fine. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 02, 2009, 07:35:23 AM

Quote from: DarkAngel on October 02, 2009, 05:46:10 AM

..........I also recently ordered this boxset of complete Haydn piano trios from Brilliant......

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51K84MKR8JL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Hello DarkAngel - first congrats on obtaining the Brilliant box of the Haydn Piano Trios - you should be quite pleased - I've own that set for a while and always like re-listening to the performances - enjoy!

Like the Symphonies, the String Quartets are another matter, i.e. so many & such a variety of performances & recordings to consider and choose. At the moment, I do not own a 'complete' box of the SQs, but have them ALL w/ 8 different groups, including the Kodaly, Buchberger, and Quatuor Mosaiques (among others); I completely agree w/ Jens on the Q. Mosaiques (also own them doing Mozart's last 10 SQs) - you should enjoy that set ordered, but let us know, please!

I would also agree w/ Gurn that the Kodaly or Buchberger boxes would be excellent choices, if indeed you want all of them w/ one group; however, I've not heard your other 2 picks although the comments so far favor the ones mentioned.

Not sure 'how far' along the Q. Mosaiques are in doing all of the Haydn SQs, but that would be a 'complete' box for me to consider! Good luck in your selection(s) - :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 02, 2009, 07:49:30 AM

http://www.youtube.com/v/NKJdOYLgZtQ

I love this recording of 101 by Norrington -- and I am curious what the Haydnists here think.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 02, 2009, 08:00:10 AM

My Solti is a minute longer for this movement.....guess my "clock" is slow. I enjoyed it. Available on cd?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2009, 08:11:30 AM

Quote from: SonicMan on October 02, 2009, 07:35:23 AM
Not sure 'how far' along the Q. Mosaiques are in doing all of the Haydn SQs, but that would be a 'complete' box for me to consider! Good luck in your selection(s) - :D

Op 20, 33, 64, 76 & 77. They are really very good, although I enjoy the Festetics more. Can't rec them though since at least in the USA they are unavailable. More's the pity, since they have the rough and raucous way of playing that is not only correct but a lot more fun for these works. Any time someone tells you that some version or other is smooth and polished, take off running. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 02, 2009, 08:18:17 AM

Quote from: Bogey on October 02, 2009, 08:00:10 AM
My Solti is a minute longer for this movement.....guess my "clock" is slow...

No, Norrington's is running way too fast. He needs to get his clock adjusted. That's no Andante. Still, I like it too. Fun alternative performance to something more traditional (my Klemperer runs two and half minutes slower, Bill ;D )

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Franco on October 02, 2009, 08:22:03 AM

I've got the Los Angeles set - good playing; and the Amadeus on the Opp. 51 - end, a very good set, but I don't know if it is currently available on CD. My set is on vinyl.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on October 02, 2009, 08:50:30 AM

Pellegrini Op.20 on CPO... anyone??? ???

It looks like it could be a winner.

I'm glad I didn't get a box set. I made it a point to get a different group for each opus, and so far, that has worked out swimmingly. The Lindsays are a sleeper here: their Op.33 is outrageously good, not showing to these ears their bad reputation (maybe I hear a little of that in Op.20).

The Endellion 54/74 was also a sleeper.

The Nomos in Op.50...

Caspar da Salo in Op.64...

Op.55 is one of the rarest, and I heard that the Kodaly were the most boring. I have the Lindsays, and, once again, their bad reputation doesn't appear to show up here either (there is a terrible review of Op.54 on Amazon, though).

Someone here was hawking the Kodaly in Op.77, which I then got, and it is a great rendition. I think we need Gurn, or someone, to get to the bottom of the Kodaly, and let us know which opera they excel in, and which ones the fall flat on. My experience is that they sound just fine until I hear someone else do it better; however, as a go to, they might be the top choice.

I posted a question about Op.71, but no one answered... uh, I'll try to re-post (as if you care, haha)...71 has a good amount of dark horse candidates...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Valentino on October 02, 2009, 09:04:14 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on October 02, 2009, 08:50:30 AM
Pellegrini Op.20 on CPO... anyone??? ???

Nei nei nei nei nei.

Hagen Quartett for op. 20! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2009, 09:34:44 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 02, 2009, 08:18:17 AM
No, Norrington's is running way too fast. He needs to get his clock adjusted. That's no Andante. Still, I like it too. Fun alternative performance to something more traditional (my Klemperer runs two and half minutes slower, Bill ;D )

Sarge

As opposed to what, Sarge? An andante in 1795 was NOT the same thing as an Andante in, oh, 1875, for example. Same with an adagio. An adagio from the 19th century is comparable to a grave from the 18th. I am no fan of Norrington, but his tempo in this movement is pretty darn good. :)

PS - FWIW, andante should be interpreted as "moving right along". I think this qualifies. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2009, 09:39:26 AM

Just for amusement, one should determine for him/herself if 'moderately slow' and 'moderately fast' mean something different. Just curious... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 02, 2009, 09:39:41 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2009, 09:34:44 AM
As opposed to what, Sarge? An andante in 1795 was NOT the same thing as an Andante in, oh, 1875, for example. Same with an adagio. An adagio from the 19th century is comparable to a grave from the 18th. I am no fan of Norrington, but his tempo in this movement is pretty darn good. :)

PS - FWIW, andante should be interpreted as "moving right along". I think this qualifies. :)

8)

Even a typical adagio in Nielsen is not slow enough for him. He likes it ssssllllloooowwww. Not surprised he's listening to Klemperer. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: ChamberNut on October 02, 2009, 09:40:16 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2009, 09:34:44 AM
As opposed to what, Sarge? An andante in 1795 was NOT the same thing as an Andante in, oh, 1875, for example. Same with an adagio. An adagio from the 19th century is comparable to a grave from the 18th. I am no fan of Norrington, but his tempo in this movement is pretty darn good. :)

PS - FWIW, andante should be interpreted as "moving right along". I think this qualifies. :)

8)

:D

Wouldn't Allegro ma non troppo and Andante virtually be the same tempo?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2009, 09:40:32 AM

Quote from: DavidW on October 02, 2009, 09:39:41 AM
Even a typical adagio in Nielsen is not slow enough for him. He likes it ssssllllloooowwww. Not surprised he's listening to Klemperer. ;D

Well, let's mark it Adagio and carry on. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2009, 09:43:12 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on October 02, 2009, 09:40:16 AM
:D

Wouldn't Allegro ma non troppo and Andante virtually be the same tempo?

Probably close. It can be difficult to tell sometimes when a modifier is being used to convey 'spirit' rather than 'speed' though. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 02, 2009, 09:48:58 AM

Quote from: Bogey on October 02, 2009, 08:00:10 AM
My Solti is a minute longer for this movement.....guess my "clock" is slow. I enjoyed it. Available on cd?

Available on DVD and soon to be available as part of a complete set of London symphonies:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/HAYDN-Symphonies-Nos-1-101-Documentary/dp/B001R4KQN4/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1254505702&sr=8-2

http://www.amazon.co.uk/12-London-Symphonies-Haydn/dp/B002NXSSWY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1254505702&sr=8-1

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on October 02, 2009, 09:55:56 AM

Somebody loves the London Haydn Quartet in op 17:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/Oct09/Haydn_SQ_cda67722.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/Oct09/Haydn_SQ_cda67722.htm)

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/Oct09/Haydn_SQ_cda67722.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 02, 2009, 10:02:06 AM

Quote from: DavidW on October 02, 2009, 09:39:41 AM
Even a typical adagio in Nielsen is not slow enough for him. He likes it ssssllllloooowwww. Not surprised he's listening to Klemperer. ;D

And that is why I need more Klemperer LvB on the shelf.....to go with my Vegh. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 02, 2009, 10:02:33 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 02, 2009, 09:48:58 AM
Available on DVD and soon to be available as part of a complete set of London symphonies:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/HAYDN-Symphonies-Nos-1-101-Documentary/dp/B001R4KQN4/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1254505702&sr=8-2

http://www.amazon.co.uk/12-London-Symphonies-Haydn/dp/B002NXSSWY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1254505702&sr=8-1

Many thanks!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on October 02, 2009, 10:44:13 AM

Quote from: George on October 02, 2009, 09:35:04 AM
Good news that the cheapest one (I assume it's the cheapest) is the best.

Not so fast. It might be more to SOMEONE's taste than the others... but it's not nearly good enough to be considered "the best". I can say that much even without having heard the Angeles. :-)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Peregrine on October 02, 2009, 11:16:47 AM

Quote from: erato on October 02, 2009, 09:55:56 AM
Somebody loves the London Haydn Quartet in op 17:

Somebody didn't love their Op.9:

http://bit.ly/9XmyX

;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on October 02, 2009, 12:19:00 PM

i wouln't necessarily call the Angeles SQ "bland" - a word too often used for lack of a better one, just like "boring".

If you read the above Musicweb review, you'll find that the Angeles is characterized as more dramatic, pointed and colorful.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 02, 2009, 12:23:13 PM

Quote from: Herman on October 02, 2009, 12:19:00 PM
i wouln't necessarily call the Angeles SQ "bland" - a word too often used for lack of a better one, just like "boring".

If you read the above Musicweb review, you'll find that the Angeles is characterized as more dramatic, pointed and colorful.

Agree with that review, Kodaly is a softer approach compared to Angeles, for box sets they're both good, I wouldn't point out either one as being bland, but if I were, perhaps the Kodaly, but they are more even. I'm about to hear Buchberger, so I guess I'll find out how they stand.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 02, 2009, 12:25:50 PM

Quote from: jlaurson on October 02, 2009, 04:57:21 AM
I've not heard the Aeolian and the Angeles... and neither Kodaly and Buchberger are the last word. Comparing the two side-by side, as I've been doing for my ongoing Haydn SQ4t pieces, I've found both lacking and complimentary. The Buchbergers are a bit rougher but also have more kick to it; the Kodalys have more ("conventionally"?) beautiful moments. Perhaps GMG-friends can pool their libraries and together upload one performance by each group of your favorite Haydn quartet, and one by each group of a lesser known one. That might help you decide.

(But again: scrap your plans and get Mosaique. ;) )

I think Mosaiques is too smooth and slow, in fact surprisingly unHIP for a HIP ensemble. :o Beautiful sounding but I wouldn't toss aside my other recordings for something so unconventional.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on October 02, 2009, 01:13:48 PM

Quote from: DavidW on October 02, 2009, 12:25:50 PM
I think Mosaiques is too smooth and slow, in fact surprisingly unHIP for a HIP ensemble. :o

That was my feeling, too. Much too luxurious.

I never listen to those cds.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 02, 2009, 02:15:20 PM

Quote from: erato on October 02, 2009, 09:55:56 AM
Somebody loves the London Haydn Quartet in op 17:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/Oct09/Haydn_SQ_cda67722.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/Oct09/Haydn_SQ_cda67722.htm)

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/Oct09/Haydn_SQ_cda67722.jpg) (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2008/feb08/Haydn_cda67611.jpg)

Erato - I was about to bring up this group's new recordings of the SQs - I have the Op. 9 works (inserted above); bought based on an excellent Fanfare review - glad to see them recording more of these works, and the packaging is excellent, i.e 2-discs in a slim single jewel box; might just go ahead and put the Op. 17 works on my wish list! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on October 02, 2009, 02:46:58 PM

I did not mention the holy grail of complete Haydn SQ sets (Tatrai SQ) because of its extremely high price @ $300 :(
Even the 2CD versions from complete set are extremely expensive

(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/hungarotonhcd41001.jpg)

Anyone have this set and any regrets for the price paid, is it worth it............

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2009, 04:26:06 PM

Quote from: DarkAngel on October 02, 2009, 02:46:58 PM
I did not mention the holy grail of complete Haydn SQ sets (Tatrai SQ) because of its extremely high price @ $300 :(
Even the 2CD versions from complete set are extremely expensive

(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/hungarotonhcd41001.jpg)

Anyone have this set and any regrets for the price paid, is it worth it............

No. I have the Op 76 set and that's it.

Everyone has different tastes, no doubt, and this is not for me. I want some snap, crackle and pop in my Haydn, and it was hard to detect any from the Tatrai. I'm sure Herman will think me a barbarian, and probably Jens will too, but I'll take the Festetics any day. Not necessarily because of the great sound of their period instruments, but because the tempos, and the interplay between the parts are perfect to my ears. In the opera up to 33, at least, Haydn was writing these works strictly for himself and his coworkers in the Esterhazy Band to play for their amusement. They are supposed to be fun, and they are supposed to sound like the players are having a good time, back and forth give and take. They were not composed to be elaborate recital pieces, and they shouldn't sound like it either. Really, you have to go all the way to Op 71 & 74 before public performance was even a consideration. When players start taking Haydn as seriously as they do, oh, Brahms for example, you lose the charm that makes him what he is. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Ensemble 415 - G 397 Quintet in C for Strings & Viola Op 62 #1 3rd mvmt - Larghetto con moto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 02, 2009, 04:46:56 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2009, 04:26:06 PM
No. I have the Op 76 set and that's it.

Everyone has different tastes, no doubt, and this is not for me. I want some snap, crackle and pop in my Haydn, and it was hard to detect any from the Tatrai. I'm sure Herman will think me a barbarian, and probably Jens will too, but I'll take the Festetics any day. Not necessarily because of the great sound of their period instruments, but because the tempos, and the interplay between the parts are perfect to my ears. In the opera up to 33, at least, Haydn was writing these works strictly for himself and his coworkers in the Esterhazy Band to play for their amusement. They are supposed to be fun, and they are supposed to sound like the players are having a good time, back and forth give and take. They were not composed to be elaborate recital pieces, and they shouldn't sound like it either. Really, you have to go all the way to Op 71 & 74 before public performance was even a consideration. When players start taking Haydn as seriously as they do, oh, Brahms for example, you lose the charm that makes him what he is. :)

I agree with every point here, not just about the Festetics (by far the best integral available, IMO), but on the character of these marvelous string quartets. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 02, 2009, 04:55:22 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 02, 2009, 04:46:56 PM
I agree with every point here, not just about the Festetics (by far the best integral available, IMO), but on the character of these marvelous string quartets. :)

I didn't know they had a complete set. Are they in a box or just separately, yet complete? :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 02, 2009, 04:55:58 PM

Quote from: Franco on October 02, 2009, 08:22:03 AM
I've got the Los Angeles set - good playing; and the Amadeus on the Opp. 51 - end, a very good set, but I don't know if it is currently available on CD. My set is on vinyl.

Yes, Franco. It is available in a DG 7-discs set (Op. 51, 54, 55, 64, 71 & 74). I would swear that some time ago these seven discs were joined with the DG Trio set (Op. 76, 77 & 103) in a larger set.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2009, 04:59:46 PM

Quote from: DavidW on October 02, 2009, 04:55:22 PM
I didn't know they had a complete set. Are they in a box or just separately, yet complete? :)

They are in sets of 2 starting with Op 9. They won't be doing 1 and 2, probably due to Haydn's instructions to Artaria to not call anything before Op 9 a quartet... :) As I understand from Que, they have been re-released in Europe in the same format they were in originally. All you can find here are resales of the originals at <>$100 a box... :-\

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Ensemble 415 - WAM Trio in Eb for Fortepiano, Clarinet & Viola K 498 1st mvmt

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 02, 2009, 05:12:23 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2009, 04:59:46 PM
They are in sets of 2 starting with Op 9. They won't be doing 1 and 2, probably due to Haydn's instructions to Artaria to not call anything before Op 9 a quartet... :) As I understand from Que, they have been re-released in Europe in the same format they were in originally. All you can find here are resales of the originals at <>$100 a box... :-\

That's right, Gurn, although the ninth volume has three discs (Op. 75, 76 & 77 - 12, 13 & 14 Artaria).

I bought the my sets on JPC (although I think MDT have or had great prices, too):

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/home/search?fastsearch=Festetics&rubric=classic&pd_orderby=score

:)

P.S.: The ninth volume includes Op. 76, 77 & 103 of the Haydn catalogue.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2009, 05:21:42 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 02, 2009, 05:12:23 PM
That's right, Gurn, although the ninth volume has three discs (Op. 75, 76 & 77 - Artaria).

I bought the my sets on JPC (although I think MDT have or had great prices, too):

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/home/search?fastsearch=Festetics&rubric=classic&pd_orderby=score

:)

P.S.: The ninth volume includes Op. 76, 77 & 103 of the Haydn catalogue.

I note that these are still on Arcana. I thought someone else bought the catalog from them. Isn't Arcana now defunct? :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Ensemble 415 - WAM Adagio in Bb for 2 Clarinets & 3 Basset Horns K 411 484a

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 02, 2009, 05:36:03 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2009, 05:21:42 PM
I note that these are still on Arcana. I thought someone else bought the catalog from them. Isn't Arcana now defunct? :)

The founder of the label Michel Bernstein died some years ago (a heart stroke, I believe). In 2008 the complete catalogue of Arcana (and the trademark, I suppose) were purchased by 551 MEDIA Srl in a public auction. Currently, that catalogue is being reissued, conserving the old artwork... With supreme wisdom, they began the project with Haydn. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2009, 05:49:46 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 02, 2009, 05:36:03 PM
The founder of the label Michel Bernstein died some years ago (a heart stroke, I believe). In 2008 the complete catalogue of Arcana (and the trademark, I suppose) were purchased by 551 MEDIA Srl in a public auction. Currently, that catalogue is being reissued, conserving the old artwork... With supreme wisdom, they began the project with Haydn. ;D

Ah, yes, that WAS supreme wisdom. :) I guess I thought they would change the name of the label. My bad. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Ensemble 415 - WAM Sonata in C for Fortepiano 4 Hands K 521 2nd mvmt

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 02, 2009, 06:41:23 PM

Well, Guys - on the last page of this thread, Erato & I commented on the London Haydn Quartet - the reviews have been excellent and the group is HIP; in addition, Hyperion is packaging these first offering as 2 discs in a single jewel box - I own Op. 9 and have just ordered Op. 17 - not sure 'how far' this group w/ go w/ this repertoire, but Hyperion seems to 'insist' on completeness? ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 02, 2009, 07:00:14 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on October 02, 2009, 06:41:23 PM
Well, Guys - on the last page of this thread, Erato & I commented on the London Haydn Quartet - the reviews have been excellent and the group is HIP; in addition, Hyperion is packaging these first offering as 2 discs in a single jewel box - I own Op. 9 and have just ordered Op. 17 - not sure 'how far' this group w/ go w/ this repertoire, but Hyperion seems to 'insist' on completeness? ;D

Listen to me dear Dave: F-E-S-T-E-T-I-C-S. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on October 02, 2009, 10:38:07 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2009, 04:59:46 PM
They are in sets of 2 starting with Op 9. They won't be doing 1 and 2, probably due to Haydn's instructions to Artaria to not call anything before Op 9 a quartet... :) As I understand from Que, they have been re-released in Europe in the same format they were in originally. All you can find here are resales of the originals at <>$100 a box... :-\

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Ensemble 415 - WAM Trio in Eb for Fortepiano, Clarinet & Viola K 498 1st mvmt

europadisc recently had these at £9 pr double, I purchased the op 50 and op 54/55 doubles, and while I cannot compare them to the Mosaiques (not having heard them recently) they certainly make the Kodalys on Naxos seem tame in comparison.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on October 02, 2009, 11:33:07 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2009, 04:26:06 PM
Everyone has different tastes, no doubt, and this is not for me. I want some snap, crackle and pop in my Haydn, and it was hard to detect any from the Tatrai. I'm sure Herman will think me a barbarian, and probably Jens will too, but I'll take the Festetics any day.

I have quite a bunch of the Tatrai SQ's Haydn (though not every one of them). I don't consider them the holy grail of Haydn SQ playing, but I'm quite happy having them. In some pieces they are good, in other pieces they are a little too sedate or plaintive; and there's also the typical small-bore kind of fiddle playing typical to the Hungarian violin school.

Unfortunately I don't have any Festetics recordings (yet?) not being too big a fan of orthodox HIP, but in any way I would recommend getting two or three versions of any Haydn opus number you're really into; the works grow with different perspectives.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on October 03, 2009, 12:50:16 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2009, 04:26:06 PM

I'm sure Herman will think me a barbarian, and probably Jens will too, but I'll take the Festetics any day. Not necessarily because of the great sound of their period instruments, but because the tempos, and the interplay between the parts are perfect to my ears.

No worries Gurn, I won't come down hard on your barbariansim until after I have heard all the Festetics discs which sit on my sill. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on October 03, 2009, 02:19:10 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2009, 04:26:06 PM
....but I'll take the Festetics any day. Not necessarily because of the great sound of their period instruments, but because the tempos, and the interplay between the parts are perfect to my ears. In the opera up to 33, at least, Haydn was writing these works strictly for himself and his coworkers in the Esterhazy Band to play for their amusement. They are supposed to be fun, and they are supposed to sound like the players are having a good time, back and forth give and take. They were not composed to be elaborate recital pieces, and they shouldn't sound like it either. Really, you have to go all the way to Op 71 & 74 before public performance was even a consideration. When players start taking Haydn as seriously as they do, oh, Brahms for example, you lose the charm that makes him what he is. :)

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 02, 2009, 04:46:56 PM
I agree with every point here, not just about the Festetics (by far the best integral available, IMO), but on the character of these marvelous string quartets. :)

Strongly thirded! :o :)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Harry on October 03, 2009, 03:19:57 AM

Quote from: DarkAngel on October 02, 2009, 02:46:58 PM
I did not mention the holy grail of complete Haydn SQ sets (Tatrai SQ) because of its extremely high price @ $300 :(
Even the 2CD versions from complete set are extremely expensive

(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/hungarotonhcd41001.jpg)

Anyone have this set and any regrets for the price paid, is it worth it............

I bought this so many years ago, for little money, the 2 cd boxes for just 7 guilder at that time, which is about 3,25 euro's. ;D
At that time they were for me a most fantastic set, and I still find lots of pleasure in it.
However, the sound quality is not always nice, most of the time rather shrill, and played to loudly, a pain for your ears.
Its in my ears certainly not worth the money you have to pay for it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 03, 2009, 06:01:56 AM

Quote from: erato on October 02, 2009, 10:38:07 PM
europadisc recently had these at £9 pr double, I purchased the op 50 and op 54/55 doubles, and while I cannot compare them to the Mosaiques (not having heard them recently) they certainly make the Kodalys on Naxos seem tame in comparison.

That's a good bargain, half of jpc's price. You won't be able to compare those particular ones to QM since those particular opera are a huge gaping hole in QM's output. :-\ Pity, Op 50 is my favorite opus, hands down, and 54/55 are well up the list. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Ensemble 415 - WAM Sonata in C for Fortepiano 4 Hands K 521 3rd mvmt

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on October 03, 2009, 07:06:13 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 03, 2009, 06:01:56 AM
You won't be able to compare those particular ones to QM since those particular opera are a huge gaping hole in QM's output. :-\ Pity, Op 50 is my favorite opus, hands down, and 54/55 are well up the list. :)

And that was exactly why I bought them!
By comparison I was thinking more along general playing style, sound etc.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 03, 2009, 07:13:39 AM

Quote from: erato on October 03, 2009, 07:06:13 AM
And that was exactly why I bought them!
By comparison I was thinking more along general playing style, sound etc.

Aha! Well, it IS an interesting comparison. The QM seems to be playing in the Salon; the QF (and I) are out on the back porch having a big time. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Ensemble 415 - WAM Sonata in C for Fortepiano 4 Hands K 521 3rd mvmt

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 03, 2009, 07:22:41 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 03, 2009, 07:13:39 AM
Aha! Well, it IS an interesting comparison. The QM seems to be playing in the Salon; the QF (and I) are out on the back porch having a big time. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Ensemble 415 - WAM Sonata in C for Fortepiano 4 Hands K 521 3rd mvmt

Are Mozart and Beethoven more comfortable in the Salon, Gurn? Or Beethoven directly needs a theater or a concert room?

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 03, 2009, 07:26:35 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 03, 2009, 07:22:41 AM
Are Mozart and Beethoven more comfortable in the Salon, Gurn? Or Beethoven directly needs a theater or a concert room?

:)

I think some of each. They both wrote works that are 'unbuttoned', not really intended for the public. Certainly Mozart had his moments of just plain fun. Beethoven less apparently so perhaps. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on October 03, 2009, 07:31:22 AM

On a Norwegian site I described the QF's playing style as "rustic" and "gutsy". I think that holds up well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on October 03, 2009, 07:37:28 AM

So, if I find a Festetics cd, any Festetititics cd, on Amazon, let's say for cheap, IS IT going to "be" the actual old back inlay and booklet that have the original copyright date (plus a current copyright?), or will it be like the ArkivCD thing where they reconstitute the book and inlay?

Did they buy backstock, or are they manufacturing new cds? Sorry for the vainglory here, I'm just wondering if... oh, nevermind, it should be about the music, yea, right, silly me, haha...

And again, the Festys did Op.33 and Op.77 ORIGINALLY on Harmonia Mundi, then did the WHOLE set on Artaria?

Has anyone heard Jaap & Co. in Op.20 2/4???

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 03, 2009, 07:43:28 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on October 03, 2009, 07:37:28 AM
So, if I find a Festetics cd, any Festetititics cd, on Amazon, let's say for cheap, IS IT going to "be" the actual old back inlay and booklet that have the original copyright date (plus a current copyright?), or will it be like the ArkivCD thing where they reconstitute the book and inlay?

They are doing like another printing. No ArkivCD's. It's like any publisher would do if they sold out a print run; they do another one just like it. :)

QuoteAnd again, the Festys did Op.33 and Op.77 ORIGINALLY on Harmonia Mundi, then did the WHOLE set on Artaria?

Yes, I am not aware of them doing more than those 2 opera on HM. Then they went to work for Arcana and did the whole thing over again. I read something about them doing Op 9 (at least) for, like Hungaroton (?) but never seen it for sale. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 03, 2009, 08:52:30 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on October 03, 2009, 07:37:28 AM
So, if I find a Festetics cd, any Festetititics cd, on Amazon, let's say for cheap, IS IT going to "be" the actual old back inlay and booklet that have the original copyright date (plus a current copyright?), or will it be like the ArkivCD thing where they reconstitute the book and inlay?
Did they buy backstock, or are they manufacturing new cds? Sorry for the vainglory here, I'm just wondering if... oh, nevermind, it should be about the music, yea, right, silly me, haha...

These reissues are exactly like the original edition, just adding the date of the current production and the name of the producer in the usual parts.

Quote from: snyprrr on October 03, 2009, 07:37:28 AM
And again, the Festys did Op.33 and Op.77 ORIGINALLY on Harmonia Mundi, then did the WHOLE set on Artaria?

The Op. 33 & 76 were recorded for Arcana. Even more, these recordings were made by the own founder of the label Michel Bernstein.

Quote from: snyprrr on October 03, 2009, 07:37:28 AM
Has anyone heard Jaap & Co. in Op.20 2/4???

If you are speaking about Jaap Schröder and the Quartetto Esterházy (Amsterdam) on Seon, I own the disc of the Op. 20 Nos. 2 & 4, my first Haydn on period instruments. That disc was revelatory for me about the relationship between Haydn and HIP performances. Although it was recorded in 1973 the sound is excellent, not just because was entirely remastered (using 20-bit technology), but because Wolf Erichson was (is) a genius.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 03, 2009, 09:33:02 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 03, 2009, 08:52:30 AM
The Op. 33 & 76 were recorded for Arcana. Even more, these recordings were made by the own founder of the label Michel Bernstein.

These are 2 entirely different recordings, Antoine and snipper. They did the HM ones first, and then did them all over again for Arcana. Although not Op 76, rather, Op 77. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: ccar on October 03, 2009, 10:52:29 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on August 17, 2009, 12:56:31 PM
Op.71
Anyone have any particular thoughts about this opus? I think it is one of the "rarer" opus numbers, meaning there aren't all that many interesting "off" brands to choose from; however, I did uncover some:

Griller SQ: this sounds like a sleeper (avail w/Op.74). Does anyone know this?

Insights? ???

(http://www.testament.co.uk/shop/images/productimages/SBT4056.jpg) (http://img.maniadb.com/images/album_t/265/265260_1_f.jpg)

Being a recent member of the forum I was curious about this interesting topic.
After so many posts, so many HIP and non HIP, let me say I do know The Griller SQ. For me they are one of the most interesting and underrated non historically informed "historic" SQ. Their Haydn, as well as Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert and Brahms is very much worth listening to.
And turning into historics and Haydn Quartets I also must make a reference in this topic to the Pro Arte 1930's Haydn Quartet Society cycle (Testament 1994). They are as much nonHIP as you can get. But personally when I need not the gimmicks of the execution but the serenity and company of the Haydn quartets music I still may go back to them.

Carlos

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 03, 2009, 11:59:30 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on October 03, 2009, 07:37:28 AM
Has anyone heard Jaap & Co. in Op.20 2/4???

A snippet of a recording referred by snyprrr:

Haydn- String Quartet in C Major op. 20, N°2, Hob. III:32
II. Adagio
Quartetto Esterházy, Amsterdam

I'm not sure, but I recall that somebody called this movement "an opera without words"; se non è vero, è ben trovato: :D

http://www.divshare.com/flash/playlist?myId=8757665-8b3

Enjoy it.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 03, 2009, 08:04:57 PM

Well, after some interesting discussion in the recent pages of this thread, I decided to do some comparative listening this afternoon to some 'period instrument' recordings of two groups that have been 'part' of the comments, i.e. Quatuor Festetics (QF) & London Haydn Quartet (LHQ) (both shown below) - unfortunately, the Opus numbers are not the same.

First, I enjoyed listening to both of these groups; the QF recordings are older, while the LHQ consists of young members making recent recordings and just beginning their 'series' on Hyperion. The QF has gleamed just excellent reviews over the years, and two of our esteemed 'Haydn experts', i.e. Gurn & Antoine, feel these represent the best choices currently for 'period instrument' performances. The comments on the LHQ have been mixed, ranging from just superlative to rather poor (e.g. David Hurwitz on ClassicsToday - I don't always agree w/ this individual, and feel he can sometimes throw 'temper tantrums'!).

Unfortunately, the QF CDs are not readily available and are full priced (where is Brilliant when needed?); the LHQ are being offered at a bargain by Hyperion, i.e. 2 discs for the price of one - so maybe the future will tell; will look forward to comments by others. ;D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/668544400_QPGs6-O.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/668544408_oSs5x-O.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on October 03, 2009, 08:20:59 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on October 03, 2009, 08:04:57 PM
David Hurwitz on ClassicsToday - I don't always agree w/ this individual, and feel he can sometimes throw 'temper tantrums'!

I've rarely seen this opinion on him expressed in such a restrained manner :D I agree, a dissing from Hurwitz is to be taken with several pinches of salt.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 03, 2009, 08:54:06 PM

Dave I know what you mean, when it comes to HIP he can be a little agenda-esque, just look at his huge essays on vibrato! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on October 04, 2009, 12:35:15 AM

Quote from: SonicMan on October 03, 2009, 08:04:57 PM
Unfortunately, the QF CDs are not readily available and are full priced (where is Brilliant when needed?)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/668544400_QPGs6-O.jpg)

Dave, the recordings on Quintana, a sublabel of Harmonia Mundi predate the recordings on ARCANA (http://www.arcana.eu/festetics.html), which were made from 1992 to 2006 and a superbly recorded IMO:

(http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedia/images_produits/ZoomPE/5/4/0/8033891690045.jpg)

The site of ARCANA does list a distributor for the US: Allegro Media Group, but no sight of it (yet) on their site (http://www.allegro-music.com/).

Still, the QF series is (already) available in Europe at mid price (except for the new vol. 4) at MDT (http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/pages/search/searchresults.asp?sGeneralSearch=festetics+haydn&sGeneralSearchSection=General&startfrom=1&sCatalogueNumber=&submitflag=true&sMSLSort=Filter2Date+DESC%2C+ProductView+DESC%2C+SaleView+DESC&bSortBy=DESC&serial=09100433805126946&x=0&y=0) or jpc (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/home/search?fastsearch=festetics%20haydn&rubric=classic&pd_orderby=score). In fact, there has just been a special offer on ARCANA discs at MDT, including this series. Offer expired a while ago. :'(

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 04, 2009, 05:58:34 AM

Quote from: Que on October 04, 2009, 12:35:15 AM
Dave, the recordings on Quintana, a sublabel of Harmonia Mundi predate the recordings on ARCANA (http://www.arcana.eu/festetics.html), which were made from 1992 to 2006 and a superbly recorded IMO:

(http://multimedia.fnac.com/multimedia/images_produits/ZoomPE/5/4/0/8033891690045.jpg)

The site of ARCANA does list a distributor for the US: Allegro Media Group, but no sight of it (yet) on their site (http://www.allegro-music.com/).............................................

Que - thanks for the information & links; I've been looking on the MDT site, and plenty of those discs are available but as you state not at a bargain price; however, will plan to keep the group on my 'wish list'! Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 04, 2009, 06:08:35 AM

Upon listening to #1-5 yesterday, I decided that #1-4 are rather lighthearted simple divertimenti, but symphony #5 has a little more heft to it. Not so much so that it's "great" you know, just something I could find myself listening to a few more times. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 04, 2009, 06:23:52 AM

Quote from: DavidW on October 04, 2009, 06:08:35 AM
Upon listening to #1-5 yesterday, I decided that #1-4 are rather lighthearted simple divertimenti, but symphony #5 has a little more heft to it. Not so much so that it's "great" you know, just something I could find myself listening to a few more times. :)

Well, the Hoboken #'s are so confusing in terms of actual chronology that it's hard to make a conclusion about the musicality based on them. #1 is indeed #1. But Hob 37 is actually #2! :o And it's a solid symphony that was for years placed in 1768 with the Stürm und Dräng works when in fact it is from 10 years earlier, i.e. - 1758. There are many other examples of this, the most notable being that #72 is really #30! As for your impression of them, I agree, they are pretty much galant sinfonias, not a lot of depth to them and certainly some concertante parts for the soloists, but you can see how his style was well established quite early on. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Orchestre Révolutionnaire et Romantique / Gardiner - Beethoven Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 4th mvmt pt 2 - 'O Freunde, Nicht Diese Tone!' Allegro assai (Final Chorus From Schiller's Ode To Joy)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 04, 2009, 06:32:08 AM

Yeah that is confusing! :D Are the symphonies by Hob # or chronological order or other?

If not the middle, is there a list on the net of the chronological order? Oh heck if there was a list by year I can have excel order it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 04, 2009, 06:51:35 AM

Quote from: DavidW on October 04, 2009, 06:32:08 AM
Yeah that is confusing! :D Are the symphonies by Hob # or chronological order or other?

If not the middle, is there a list on the net of the chronological order? Oh heck if there was a list by year I can have excel order it.

Yeah, that New Zealand site with the Hob list also has the actual chrono list too in another column. I just copied and pasted it into Excel and reordered it, just as you say. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 04, 2009, 06:53:44 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2009, 09:34:44 AM
As opposed to what, Sarge?

Effective contrast between movements. When the slow movement is this fast, it creates far less contrast between it and the preceding fast movement and the following dance movement. Contrast was a big part of the classical style. I believe some of the Hipsters get it wrong: too fast slow movements, way too fast dance movements (minuets) that don't contrast sufficiently with the concluding prestos. I don't think the older generation of conductors (Szell, Solti, Bernstein, Klemp, Krips, etc) were wrong. I think they knew proper tempos relationships. That doesn't mean I don't like HIP performances...I do, but I don't think they are necessarily always correct about tempos...just different.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 04, 2009, 07:10:37 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 04, 2009, 06:53:44 AM
Effective contrast between movements. When the slow movement is this fast, it creates far less contrast between it and the preceding fast movement and the following dance movement. Contrast was a big part of the classical style. I believe some of the Hipsters get it wrong: too fast slow movements, way too fast dance movements (minuets) that don't contrast sufficiently with the concluding prestos. I don't think the older generation of conductors (Szell, Solti, Bernstein, Klemp, Krips, etc) were wrong. I think they knew proper tempos relationships. That doesn't mean I don't like HIP performances...I do, but I don't think they are necessarily always correct about tempos...just different.

Sarge

Harnoncourt has that essence of contrast, in fact more so than the conductors that you mentioned. In fact I think you've got it reversed. HIPsters have MORE of a contrast between fast and slow movements than your favorite conductors do. Your conductors will play the fast movements slow as well. I remember the DG Bernstein and the Bohm recordings of Mozart's symphonies, they are so lethargic! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 04, 2009, 07:11:10 AM

Dave,
Like Hurwitz (well, just the opposite, I suppose) I am also agenda-esque, especially when it comes to Haydn. I have that Quintana disk of Op 77, it was my very first PI quartets recording way back in 1995. :) I can't compare with their Arcana disk since I don't have that one, my only opening in the set. But it is very nice, and sold me on those works right from the first listening. :)

Everything I have heard about the London disks is that they are very beautifully and smoothly played. Which is great if that is what you are looking for in Haydn. As you know from my post yesterday AM, it is not what I am looking for, sadly, so I have saved my money in this case. If I am wrong, I won't be sorry, since I greatly enjoy my QF Op 9 anyway and really don't need another version to keep me happy. :D However, as Que's tagline implies, there is no accounting for taste. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
La Petite Bande / Kuijken Wallfisch - Hob 07a 04 Concerto in G for Violin 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 04, 2009, 07:17:15 AM

Quote from: DavidW on October 02, 2009, 09:39:41 AM
Even a typical adagio in Nielsen is not slow enough for him. He likes it ssssllllloooowwww. Not surprised he's listening to Klemperer. ;D

;D :D ;D Yeah, it's no secret that, given two performances of equal quality, i'll opt nine times out of ten for the slower performance. I like to smell the roses ;D

Seriously, one of the greatest pleasures I find in classical music is listening to all that interesting stuff going on underneath the main melody. Slow tempos help clarify, help you hear that detail, the inner workings; allows time for contemplation. I have immense patience. I admire conductors who have a similar patience not to rush through. A conductor like Klemperer does not in any way violate the spirit of Haydn just because he takes two minutes longer over the slow movement than some speed demon HIPster who's in a rush to get the music over with as quickly as possible because some theory tells him so.

Again, I love HIP performances too and in this forum anyway, I'm one of the few who actually loves the most radical Beethoven cycle: Norrington's LCP. I don't believe that's the only way to play Beethoven though.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 04, 2009, 07:20:26 AM

Quote from: DavidW on October 04, 2009, 07:10:37 AM
Harnoncourt has that essence of contrast, in fact more so than the conductors that you mentioned. In fact I think you've got it reversed. HIPsters have MORE of a contrast between fast and slow movements than your favorite conductors do. Your conductors will play the fast movements slow as well. I remember the DG Bernstein and the Bohm recordings of Mozart's symphonies, they are so lethargic! :D

I don't like either of those conductors in Mozart (I'm not even a fan of Böhm's Mozart operas). I love Szell and Klemperer. They do provide the contrast. Just listen to Klemp's little G minor.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 04, 2009, 07:25:47 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 04, 2009, 06:53:44 AM
Effective contrast between movements. When the slow movement is this fast, it creates far less contrast between it and the preceding fast movement and the following dance movement. Contrast was a big part of the classical style. I believe some of the Hipsters get it wrong: too fast slow movements, way too fast dance movements (minuets) that don't contrast sufficiently with the concluding prestos. I don't think the older generation of conductors (Szell, Solti, Bernstein, Klemp, Krips, etc) were wrong. I think they knew proper tempos relationships. That doesn't mean I don't like HIP performances...I do, but I don't think they are necessarily always correct about tempos...just different.

Sarge

I don't know about that. I also listened to the menuetto, and I think he got that pretty good too. I am not going to rely on David's argument beyond saying that I agree with what he is saying. I think the conductors you mention DID get it wrong. Even though their playing is very nice, and I'm not saying otherwise, the intervening 19th century totally changed the trend of the minuet in particular, as well as several other tempo indications. Haydn marked many of his minuets 'presto', and I don't think he did that by mistake. If you go back and look at the added in metronome markings of people like Czerny, who was alive throughout the period, you find them to be a lot faster than what was played in the 1950's. They are playing Haydn like he was played in 1850.

I think that you started listening to music in the '60's, and the style that was prominent in those days sounds right to you. I don't have an argument to advance against that, since everyone should listen to what they like. However, I will fall back on the old "If Haydn was alive today..." argument here and say that he would recognize the zippy performances as what he had in mind when he wrote those works. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 04, 2009, 07:50:23 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 04, 2009, 07:17:15 AM
Slow tempos help clarify, help you hear that detail, the inner workings; allows time for contemplation. I have immense patience.

I think I agree with that. In a Bach keyboard piece I'll have to listen to it several times to make sense of it because it's played so fast the notes practically blend into each other. When played substantially slower, I'm like oh that makes sense! and I perceive the architecture. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 04, 2009, 07:51:15 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 04, 2009, 07:20:26 AM
I don't like either of those conductors in Mozart (I'm not even a fan of Böhm's Mozart operas). I love Szell and Klemperer. They do provide the contrast. Just listen to Klemp's little G minor.

Sarge

Haven't heard Klemperer, but I know that Szell does. Good catch. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 04, 2009, 10:22:51 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 04, 2009, 07:11:10 AM
Listening to:
La Petite Bande / Kuijken Wallfisch - Hob 07a 04 Concerto in G for Violin 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato

Hey, hey, Gurn. Your machine is delivering some wrong references. $:) :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 04, 2009, 10:31:17 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 04, 2009, 10:22:51 AM
Hey, hey, Gurn. Your machine is delivering some wrong references. $:) :D

Ah, I see now. That's what I get for letting FreeDb do ANYTHING for me. >:( That's a double CD and the first disk is Kuijken, but the 2nd disk is OAE / Walffisch. :-[ My bad. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Musica Antiqua Amsterdam / Koopman - Hob 18 03 Concerto in F for Keyboard 3rd mvmt - Presto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 04, 2009, 10:38:04 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 04, 2009, 10:31:17 AM
That's a double CD and the first disk is Kuijken, but the 2nd disk is OAE / Walffisch. :-[ My bad. :)

Yes, I have the same Virgin Veritas x 2. I bought it just for those two violin concertos and the sinfonia concertante because I already had the symphonies of the first disc. Nice performances. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 04, 2009, 10:44:13 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 04, 2009, 10:38:04 AM
Yes, I have the same Virgin Veritas x 2. I bought it just for those two violin concertos and the sinfonia concertante because I already had the symphonies of the first disc. Nice performances. :)

Yeah, same here. Although last week I got the Arkiv disk of Standage doing all 3 concertos with the English Concert, and after an extended play-off, I decided to go with those in my Complete Haydn set. Just a bit more beef to them, I guess, plus the added bonus of the Concerto #3 in A major, something of a recorded rarity. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Musica Antiqua Amsterdam / Koopman - Hob 18 04 Concerto in G for Keyboard 2nd mvmt - Adagio cantabile

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 04, 2009, 10:47:24 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 04, 2009, 10:44:13 AM
plus the added bonus of the Concerto #3 in A major, something of a recorded rarity. :)

I don't have that concerto on period instruments. :-\

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 04, 2009, 11:04:30 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 04, 2009, 10:47:24 AM
I don't have that concerto on period instruments. :-\

I didn't have it at all before I got this disk:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/b8/83/84aaa2c008a034c37dc32010.L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

It is accepted as authentic (manuscript discovered by Robbins-Landon in 1950 at Melk (I think?)) but still rarely played. Nice piece though, glad I got it. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Musica Antiqua Amsterdam / Koopman - Hob 18 04 Concerto in G for Keyboard 2nd mvmt - Adagio cantabile

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 04, 2009, 12:59:34 PM

Recently, it has been issued a new HIP recording of the violin concertos number 1&4 by Rachel Podger & the OAE (Channel Classics).

Together with Standage/Pinnock, I know the existence of another two complete HIP recordings: Federico Gugliemo/L'Arte Dell'Arco (Brilliant) and Marc Destrubé/Pacific Baroque Orchestra (Atma). I'm considering all these options.

Although Podger's recording is not complete (coupled with Mozart's sinfonia concertante), I'm rather tempted because I love that girl (what an adorable creature!!!!) and some days ago I did read some enticing words about this recording:
"Pavlo and I had the extreme good fortune to play a Strad each! Generously loaned to us by the Royal Academy of Music for this project, we savoured every minute of having these esteemed and valuable instruments in our hands! 'Mine' is a proud instrument which demands careful negotiation and warming before it will expose it's beautiful colours. An amazing experience in itself to play an instrument like this, it was even more of an event when the two Strads met and 'spoke' to each other with a feeling of being acquainted, perhaps not for the first time..." Rachel Podger.

Additionally, I was watching this interesting promotional video on You Tube, although referred only to the Mozart's sinfonia concertante:

http://www.youtube.com/v/tScWu5YnF7o

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 04, 2009, 01:08:19 PM

To keep the String Quartet topic from getting derailed (I am a major transgressor!) and because I feel that it deserves a topic of its own, I have split off the previous posts.

Discuss.... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 04, 2009, 03:08:01 PM

I listened to the Lira Concertos today. They might be lesser performed pieces, but they're fantastic. Really, I mean it. On par with the late symphonies. In fact the inner movement to #3 is very well known to me, like it was a movement from somewhere elsewhere, a London symphony perhaps?

Does anyone know? I can post a sample if you need it. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 04, 2009, 03:24:52 PM

Quote from: DavidW on October 04, 2009, 03:08:01 PM
I listened to the Lira Concertos today. They might be lesser performed pieces, but they're fantastic. Really, I mean it. On par with the late symphonies. In fact the inner movement to #3 is very well known to me, like it was a movement from somewhere elsewhere, a London symphony perhaps?

My book says: 2nd movement of Symphony No.100 "Military".

Symphony No.100 "Military" - 1794

Concerto in G major Hob. VIIh:3 -1786(87)

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 04, 2009, 04:03:58 PM

Ha thanks! :)

Just look at that, he takes a Lira concerto and uses it in one of his great symphonies! Perhaps these concerti are worth listening to. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on October 05, 2009, 10:46:17 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on August 17, 2009, 12:56:31 PM
Op.71

Anyone have any particular thoughts about this opus? I think it is one of the "rarer" opus numbers, meaning there aren't all that many interesting "off" brands to choose from; however, I did uncover some:

Auryn SQ/Tacet I/II: two? versions, on the same label?... the 1993 is hopelessly OOP.

Chilingirian SQ/CRD

Griller SQ: this sounds like a sleeper (avail w/Op.74). Does anyone know this?

Brentano SQ: 1999/live

Lindsay SQ/ASV: this comes from the tale end of their survey. I don't know anyone who has ventured this far.. I don't know whether to trust them this far.

The HIP contigent is only represented by Festetics and Solomon (on an outrageous 3 cds w/Op.74!). Does this seem like a particularly good opus for the HIP "sound"?

The usual suspects round out the top 10: Tatrai, Angeles, Kodaly, Amadeus, Aeolian. I'm wondering if the Kodaly might be the dark horse here? I don't see any reason why they might not be the best here. I have only heard the Amadeus, which was one of their bests sets, as I recall.

I'll admit that Op.71 didn't leave a great impression on me back in the spring. All I really remember is the fake ending finale of No.2, and the Eb similarities of No.3 with 76/6. Right now, I couldn't tell the difference between 71/1, 74/1, or 76/1! But, I am looking forward to becoming reaquainted with Op.71 at some point.

Insights? ???

\

I'm asking this question again. Please read.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 05, 2009, 11:54:37 AM

I just wanted to say that I've been listening to Buchberger Q, and whoever said it was rough but exciting is pretty much nailed it. They lack polish, but it's pretty thrilling musicing. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 06, 2009, 10:40:20 AM

I have had a chance to listen to Norrington's 101 -- the DVD arrived yesterday.

First reactions. Well it's HIP, and that means that the orchestral balance favours the brass more than with traditional big band Haydn. The problem for me is that introduces an element of brashness which I just do not like. Norrington isn't as offensive to me as Fey in this regard (Fey hasn't done 101) -- but still, it is brazen.

That's a negative. On the positive side we get the excellent phrasing of a true HIPster -- in the first two movements. The thing falls completely IMO in the minuet. It just stagnates -- it's as if he is trying to make it sound too profound. That's a big problem.

This minuet is a real pons assinorum -- and it's enormous, so if the conductor can't make the minuet work, that's a deal breaker IMO.

Many of them fail I think. Scherchen's not bad. But the best I have heard, by far, is Van Beinum on an amateur transfer -- his 101 has never made it to commercial CD. It is a superb performance. My favourite so far in every movement.

Haydn lovers should go straight to here and download it right away:

http://nealshistoricalcorner.blogspot.com/search/label/Van%20Beinum

Sound is acceptable -- but historical.

I am exploring this symphony at the moment - but so far I haven't found a recommendable well recorded 101 -- of course there are lots more wending their way to me in the post.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on October 07, 2009, 01:14:30 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 06, 2009, 10:40:20 AM
I am exploring this symphony at the moment - but so far I haven't found a recommendable well recorded 101 -- of course there are lots more wending their way to me in the post.

My favourite modern recording of #101 is currently Kuijken and La Petite Bande. The semi-HIP approach is wonderful for Haydn's symphonies, allowing all the woodwind, brass and percussion detail to come through and giving a real edge in the exciting parts. Kuijken also generally adopts unhurried tempos, but with a wonderful vitality and/or grace (depending on the movement). I have both the London and Paris sets from Kuijken and they are my top recommendation for most of these works.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on October 07, 2009, 10:19:29 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on October 05, 2009, 10:46:17 AM
\

I'm asking this question again. Please read.

Like a flaming cold sore on your tookus, I will keep coming back to this question until someone bites! :-*I'm holding my breath :-X.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on October 07, 2009, 10:41:10 AM

please take it from me, we've read your story and found nothing to reply to.

PS people who keep bumping their stuff are rather irritating.

If one's stuff doesn't garner any responses perhaps it didn't merit responses.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on October 07, 2009, 12:43:06 PM

Quote from: DavidW on October 05, 2009, 11:54:37 AM
I just wanted to say that I've been listening to Buchberger Q, and whoever said it was rough but exciting is pretty much nailed it. They lack polish, but it's pretty thrilling musicing. :)

I must purchase the complete Buchberger/Brilliant Classics boxset........samples sound wonderful :D
plus Hurwitz at classics today hates it which is a good sign I will love it!

I always first check the minuet/trio movements for Haydn quartets and make sure they have nice sprung rhythms like a courtly dance, many versions are too slow here and sound heavy and dull, Buchberger SQ dances across my soundstage.....lovely

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on October 07, 2009, 12:50:11 PM

Quote from: Herman on October 07, 2009, 10:41:10 AM

If one's stuff doesn't garner any responses perhaps it didn't merit responses.

Or maybe we're to lazy and/or stupid. I've loved Haydn's quartets for years, but have no views on the op 71 in particular. Come to think of it, they are not amongst my go-to sets, those are 33, 50, 54, 55, 64 and 76.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: ccar on October 07, 2009, 02:55:48 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on October 05, 2009, 10:46:17 AM
\
s
I'm asking this question again. Please read.

I don't know if a 1959 nonHIP recording is completely out of your horizon, but I did post an answer note to your op71 question (regarding the Griller recording you mentioned).
For me, these are very lively and "awakening" performances. Certainly, you won't get any of the HIP edginess we now need to live by. But if you dare to venture into the unfashionable tone and dusty elegance of the Griller´s they may be an interesting listening experience.

Carlos

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 07, 2009, 02:56:02 PM

Quote from: DavidW on October 05, 2009, 11:54:37 AM
I just wanted to say that I've been listening to Buchberger Q, and whoever said it was rough but exciting is pretty much nailed it. They lack polish, but it's pretty thrilling musicing. :)

David - although I have an eclectic mix of performers in all of Joe's SQs, I do have the Buchberger Quartet in Op. 1/2 & 9 - I enjoy them also, and don't mind a little 'roughness' in classical quartets (which is not true for me in 20th century string works) - I'm going to pick up some more w/ the Festetics, but might go ahead and order the Buchberger box set? Dave :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 07, 2009, 04:12:49 PM

Quote from: erato on October 07, 2009, 12:50:11 PM
Or maybe we're to lazy and/or stupid.

Nope. I don't reply to Snips because (a) he doesn't like Haydn, and (b) his first impression is his last impression. Responding to a post of his is a waste of time. I used to, as others have here, replied to his posts and whether the reply be perfunctory or profound and no matter who replies, he either ignores them or only replies to small pieces out of context. To make matters worse he speaks in his own strange vocabulary which he refuses to translate into wording that others use.

And of course the most important point is that he has already dismissed like 98% of Haydn's String Quartets. He doesn't like them. He has written so himself. So why is he still bothering us?

I have opinions on various recordings of Op 71 I've heard, so does Herman, so do several others. We just don't want to waste our time replying to someone who doesn't like Haydn, will not read the replies carefully, and reply with meaningless gibberish that he refuses to translate.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on October 07, 2009, 11:28:07 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on October 07, 2009, 02:56:02 PM
David - although I have an eclectic mix of performers in all of Joe's SQs, I do have the Buchberger Quartet in Op. 1/2 & 9 - I enjoy them also, and don't mind a little 'roughness' in classical quartets (which is not true for me in 20th century string works) - I'm going to pick up some more w/ the Festetics, but might go ahead and order the Buchberger box set? Dave :D

I haven't been *entirely* sold on the Festetics yet, but the Buchberger--though they have their moments--don't begin to compare to them. "Spirited amateurs" (in the very best sense, talking about the Festetics) are much preferable to "unprepared readings masquerading as 'rough energy'" ;)

For the more traditional approach, the Auryn is very nice... consistently outplaying the Kodaly (never mind Buchberger).

Then again, these comments reflect my opinions reg. op.17... I'm sure matters change as I progress up the opus numbers.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 08, 2009, 04:44:03 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on October 07, 2009, 11:28:07 PM
For the more traditional approach, the Auryn is very nice... consistently outplaying the Kodaly (never mind Buchberger).

I was going to say I thought they only did Op 71 (and their recording is my favorite for that set of SQs)... but then I searched and yeah they have a whole set now. When did this happen? Or is it a reissue? ??? That's a tremendous find, they should do circles around everyone including Tatrai and Angeles IMO if the rest of the recordings are at the level of their Op 71.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 08, 2009, 04:46:44 AM

I guess it's getting about time I take a poke at new Haydn recordings, I think this is my list from when I did the great exploration a few years back:

Op 20-- Angeles
Op 33-- Weller
Op 50-- Nomos
Op 64-- Mosaiques
Op 71-- Auryn
Op 74-- Kocian
Op 76-- Kodaly
Op 77-- Angeles

:)

The thing is that I did not have a flavor for rough Haydn back then, a current list might be different even if there are no new recordings, but there are...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on October 09, 2009, 08:24:27 AM

Quote from: Herman on October 07, 2009, 10:41:10 AM
please take it from me, we've read your story and found nothing to reply to.

PS people who keep bumping their stuff are rather irritating.

If one's stuff doesn't garner any responses perhaps it didn't merit responses.

Quote from: DavidW on October 07, 2009, 04:12:49 PM
Nope. I don't reply to Snips because (a) he doesn't like Haydn, and (b) his first impression is his last impression. Responding to a post of his is a waste of time. I used to, as others have here, replied to his posts and whether the reply be perfunctory or profound and no matter who replies, he either ignores them or only replies to small pieces out of context. To make matters worse he speaks in his own strange vocabulary which he refuses to translate into wording that others use.

And of course the most important point is that he has already dismissed like 98% of Haydn's String Quartets. He doesn't like them. He has written so himself. So why is he still bothering us?

I have opinions on various recordings of Op 71 I've heard, so does Herman, so do several others. We just don't want to waste our time replying to someone who doesn't like Haydn, will not read the replies carefully, and reply with meaningless gibberish that he refuses to translate.

:o :o :o

Quote from: DavidW on October 08, 2009, 04:44:03 AM
I was going to say I thought they only did Op 71 (and their recording is my favorite for that set of SQs)... but then I searched and yeah they have a whole set now. When did this happen? Or is it a reissue? ??? That's a tremendous find, they should do circles around everyone including Tatrai and Angeles IMO if the rest of the recordings are at the level of their Op 71.

Well, you answered my question anyways. Thanks! ;D

Sure I "like" Haydn. Even if I didn't, I have still been listening to him every day since May,... so there! Also, my first impression isn't alwaaays my last impression: only with Schubert! >:D 0:) I totally didn't like Op.50/Nomos when it can in the mail, but now I have put it in context and find it one of the most elusive sets. I listen to it frequently.

So, is it that no one really cares to discuss Op.71,... or, you just don't like me? :'( At least "erato"'s honest, and doesn't have an opinion, but DavidW, you did (auryn) and you withheld it from me because you don't like me? :'( :'( :'(Waaah!!!

I had wanted to get the original '90s Auryn/Tacet, but it is HOOP (hopelessly out of print).

eh,uh,oh,ah... such drama...

I just want to know if any dares off the beaten track here. We have discussed groups that only record one, or two, sets: Endellion, Griller... and here in Op.71 we have some other interesting choices: Chilingirian, Brentano, etc... so, hey, if there's nothing to talk about there's nothing to talk about, but if this is just personal, well, come on,... I'm just typed words on a page. God knows we're probably ALL totally self absorbed assholes in real like anyhow, I mean, who on a Haydn SQ Thread WOULDN'T be??? haha... oy vey!

Yea, I just want what I want when I want it, and right now I want a great Op.71! The only snag is that the Kodaly and Lindsays are the only one within my budget; so, how do theeey fare here? I find Op.71 very woodsy and folksy and hidden (in terms of popularity) and I just wanted to get the best bang for the buck in this, one of Haydn's least known sets.

Guess what,... Op.74 is next, so if you'd like to get that out of the way whilst we're at it... Endellion? (I liked their Op.54, though I feel like I hear some boxiness in the recording?)

Quote from: ccar on October 07, 2009, 02:55:48 PM
I don't know if a 1959 nonHIP recording is completely out of your horizon, but I did post an answer note to your op71 question (regarding the Griller recording you mentioned).
For me, these are very lively and "awakening" (not at all sleeper) performances. Certainly, you won't get any of the HIP edginess we now need to live by. But if you dare to venture into the unfashionable tone and dusty elegance of the Griller´s they may be an interesting listening experience.

Carlos

Thank you, Carlos, what a nice young man you are, unlike sooome of these meany mean means. ;D oh, I'm so victimized! ::)

This Griller sets certainly was my initial pick, but Amazon is out of the $11.99 version, and I won't pay a lot for this muffler. If I wait until they come in, I would like them. btw- the word "sleeper" MEANS "good",... like "dark horse".

Personally, I'm still waiting with baited breath for AntioneM's blow by blow of the Festetics set.

And yes, maybe I would rather be listening to Xenakis, but hey, you just can't do that 24/7. Boring old "normal" music will do just fine for great stretches of time, so, that must mean it is worth something? Yes,... that was cheeky! :P

Perhaps no one has bothered to ask if my opinion of HaydnSQs has changed since I posted those initial rants back in the springtime? Perhaps I grudgingly acknowledge that Haydn IS the man when it comes to pre-1800s SQ-ville. Perhaps I would have liked a little more Sturm&Drang, but hey, he started writing SQs just as he was coming out of that phase. Poor me!

And, DavidW, I'll look into speaking with clearer dictatoricalnessness. ;)

Everyone have a nice Friday. Waiter, buy everyone a round on me,... and put it on Gurn's tab!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on October 09, 2009, 09:37:01 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2009, 04:48:18 AM
I would get the Buchbergers and never look back. They meet every requirement, even being semi-PI (gut strings tuned to A=440).

Angeles = Bland
Aeolian = Romantic
Kodaly = better than the above, but not as good as Buchberger.

Presto UK sent me notice that my Buchberger/Brilliant set has finally shipped to USA.........will report soon
Meanwhile my used Mosaiques/Naive 5CD set from Amazon has just arrived:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Z4MUZVhEL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on October 09, 2009, 12:32:41 PM

Just back from a recital by the Parkanyi Quartet, which started with a great Op 76 / 2

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 09, 2009, 03:30:43 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on October 09, 2009, 08:24:27 AM
Well, you answered my question anyways. Thanks! ;D

Oh fiddlesticks I was tricked! ;D

QuoteI had wanted to get the original '90s Auryn/Tacet, but it is HOOP (hopelessly out of print).

That's all I have and all I know for Auryn's Haydn, can't speak for the new ones.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 09, 2009, 04:08:01 PM

Quote from: DarkAngel on October 09, 2009, 09:37:01 AM
Presto UK sent me notice that my Buchberger/Brilliant set has finally shipped to USA.........will report soon
Meanwhile my used Mosaiques/Naive 5CD set from Amazon has just arrived:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Z4MUZVhEL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

DarkAngel - just put in an order from MDT for the Buchberger Box myself; also, would be interested in the 5-CD set w/ the Quatuor Mosaiques (already own them in the Op. 20 & 33 SQs) - curious to know 'how' that set is boxed (i.e. jewel boxes, sleeves, or other)? Thanks - :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on October 09, 2009, 04:37:20 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on October 09, 2009, 04:08:01 PM
DarkAngel - just put in an order from MDT for the Buchberger Box myself; also, would be interested in the 5-CD set w/ the Quatuor Mosaiques (already own them in the Op. 20 & 33 SQs) - curious to know 'how' that set is boxed (i.e. jewel boxes, sleeves, or other)? Thanks - :D

The picture shown is for outer slipcover, inside are 3 standard 1CD jewel cases and one chubby 2CD jewel case......5 Cds total
Each jewel case has its own booklet just like if you were buying them individually

Looks like the most recent flurry of activity here has sold a few Buchberger boxsets :)
Presto UK price was $67.49 with $4 shipping to USA for Buchberger

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 09, 2009, 04:47:36 PM

Quote from: DarkAngel on October 09, 2009, 04:37:20 PM
The picture shown is for outer slipcover, inside are 3 standard 1CD jewel cases and one chubby 2CD jewel case......5 Cds total
Each jewel case has its own booklet just like if you were buying them individually

Looks like the most recent flurry of activity here has sold a few Buchberger boxsets :)
Presto UK price was $67.49 with $4 shipping to USA

Yep, I have the Mozart collection w/ single discs in jewel boxes - not a 'space saver' at all! I guess this label (and also Capriccio & CPO) do the same, i.e offering these great multi-CD sets w/ the discs in jewel boxes - space is at a premium for me, so a disincentive to purchase these sets w/ that packaging - will need to think about it - thanks for the prompt response and information - Dave :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: greg on October 09, 2009, 05:27:00 PM

Anyone have input on their favorite Haydn piano (keyboard, whatever) sonatas?
I've been going through them quite a bit the last few months... probably have heard all of them, but I'm only familiar with a few.
So far, I can say I like 47, 42, 43, 10, and another whose number I forgot among my favorites. Any I should pay special attention to?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 09, 2009, 05:38:29 PM

Quote from: Greg on October 09, 2009, 05:27:00 PM
Anyone have input on their favorite Haydn piano (keyboard, whatever) sonatas?
I've been going through them quite a bit the last few months... probably have heard all of them, but I'm only familiar with a few.
So far, I can say I like 47, 42, 43, 10, and another whose number I forgot among my favorites. Any I should pay special attention to?

Well, his last 3, which were written in 1794 while he was in London, are pretty fine works by any standards. The Hoboken numbers are 50, 51 & 52, but they are very often called by their chronological numbers, which are 60, 61 & 62. They are, respectively, in C, D & Eb. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Collegium musicum 90 - Richard Hickox - Hob 22 05 'Missa Cellensis' pt 05 - Gloria - 'Laudamus te'. Moderato

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: greg on October 09, 2009, 05:44:02 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 09, 2009, 05:38:29 PM
Well, his last 3, which were written in 1794 while he was in London, are pretty fine works by any standards. The Hoboken numbers are 50, 51 & 52, but they are very often called by their chronological numbers, which are 60, 61 & 62. They are, respectively, in C, D & Eb. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Collegium musicum 90 - Richard Hickox - Hob 22 05 'Missa Cellensis' pt 05 - Gloria - 'Laudamus te'. Moderato

Yeah, that crazy numbering system! :o ;D
(i was referring to the chronological numbers and not the Hob. ones when i said my favorites, btw- though i bet you figured that anyways ;) )

Well, I do remember not quite liking the very last- or at least, not liking the beginning of it- and liking, I think, the one before the last. But- just initial impressions- I'll pay attention to them and keep them in mind. Thanks, Gurn! 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 09, 2009, 05:54:11 PM

Quote from: Greg on October 09, 2009, 05:44:02 PM
Yeah, that crazy numbering system! :o ;D
(i was referring to the chronological numbers and not the Hob. ones when i said my favorites, btw- though i bet you figured that anyways ;) )

Well, I do remember not quite liking the very last- or at least, not liking the beginning of it- and liking, I think, the one before the last. But- just initial impressions- I'll pay attention to them and keep them in mind. Thanks, Gurn! 8)

Yeah, drives me crazy too, especially in the sonatas which actually have an alternative system that works. ::)

Well, if you don't care for that Eb one, you can always try #59 (49 ::) ) which is also in Eb. I like it rather better, but there's no accounting for taste. Another which I quite like is the one in c# minor, which the Hob is 36, but really, it is sonata #49. It dates from back in 1780, but it and the 4 others that make up its little group (48-52) are really a nice group of works. Also, they are the very earliest ones that were written for piano, as opposed to harpsichord, which probably doesn't make any difference to you, except that the dynamics and such are now the composer's written ones instead of ones made up by the editor or a player. Just sayin'... :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Collegium musicum 90 - Richard Hickox - Hob 22 04 Missa in honorem BVM pt 07 - Credo - Et resurrexit

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: greg on October 09, 2009, 07:01:19 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 09, 2009, 05:54:11 PM
Yeah, drives me crazy too, especially in the sonatas which actually have an alternative system that works. ::)

Well, if you don't care for that Eb one, you can always try #59 (49 ::) ) which is also in Eb. I like it rather better, but there's no accounting for taste. Another which I quite like is the one in c# minor, which the Hob is 36, but really, it is sonata #49. It dates from back in 1780, but it and the 4 others that make up its little group (48-52) are really a nice group of works. Also, they are the very earliest ones that were written for piano, as opposed to harpsichord, which probably doesn't make any difference to you, except that the dynamics and such are now the composer's written ones instead of ones made up by the editor or a player. Just sayin'... :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Collegium musicum 90 - Richard Hickox - Hob 22 04 Missa in honorem BVM pt 07 - Credo - Et resurrexit

Oh yeah, the set I have (Jando) mentions that fact about the later ones. It is interesting, too, though, that it wouldn't make a difference to the uninformed listener.

Also interesting... the last movement of the 1st sonata is 33 seconds long (and there's several in his early sonatas barely longer than that). This makes me laugh every time I think about it. It's just a repeated tune with one variation, and isn't even a page long. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 09, 2009, 07:07:40 PM

Quote from: Greg on October 09, 2009, 07:01:19 PM
Oh yeah, the set I have (Jando) mentions that fact about the later ones. It is interesting, too, though, that it wouldn't make a difference to the uninformed listener.

Also interesting... the last movement of the 1st sonata is 33 seconds long (and there's several in his early sonatas barely longer than that). This makes me laugh every time I think about it. It's just a repeated tune with one variation, and isn't even a page long. :D

Yeah, that was pretty common back then. I have several by different composers, particularly 3rd movements where they are under a minute. 40-45 seconds is pretty standard. I'll post a score page tomorrow that I find interesting which illustrates this concept. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Collegium musicum 90 - Richard Hickox - Hob 22 05 'Missa Cellensis' pt 09 - Gloria - 'Quoniam tu solus sanctus'. Allegro molto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on October 10, 2009, 01:31:39 AM

Quote from: SonicMan on October 09, 2009, 04:47:36 PM
- space is at a premium for me, so a disincentive to purchase these sets w/ that packaging - will need to think about it -

Then get these: http://www.jazzloft.com/p-34281-space-saving-cd-sleeves.aspx (http://www.jazzloft.com/p-34281-space-saving-cd-sleeves.aspx) They work wonders for me... and they'll keep you from not getting the right performances for the wrong reasons.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 10, 2009, 11:06:31 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on October 10, 2009, 01:31:39 AM
Then get these: http://www.jazzloft.com/p-34281-space-saving-cd-sleeves.aspx (http://www.jazzloft.com/p-34281-space-saving-cd-sleeves.aspx) They work wonders for me... and they'll keep you from not getting the right performances for the wrong reasons.

Jens - yes - believe that you mentioned these sleeves in another thread which prompted me to buy a 'small' bundle; not sure that I like them, though, but certainly will vouch that their use would save space! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 10, 2009, 11:12:02 AM

String Quartets Op. 17 w/ London Haydn Quartet on Hyperion (2-CDs for the price of one and in a slim jewel box) - these are marvelous performances (and will replace my Kodaly discs) w/ gut strings & classical bows - excellent review on MusicWeb HERE (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/Oct09/Haydn_SQ_cda67722.htm); I'm assuming that this will be on ongoing project? :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/photos/676126197_JwbQH-O.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: greg on October 10, 2009, 07:58:42 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 09, 2009, 07:07:40 PM
Yeah, that was pretty common back then. I have several by different composers, particularly 3rd movements where they are under a minute. 40-45 seconds is pretty standard. I'll post a score page tomorrow that I find interesting which illustrates this concept. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Collegium musicum 90 - Richard Hickox - Hob 22 05 'Missa Cellensis' pt 09 - Gloria - 'Quoniam tu solus sanctus'. Allegro molto

Awesome. Then again, I've done the same exact thing before. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on October 11, 2009, 02:06:39 AM

Quote from: SonicMan on October 10, 2009, 11:06:31 AM
Jens - yes - believe that you mentioned these sleeves in another thread which prompted me to buy a 'small' bundle; not sure that I like them, though, but certainly will vouch that their use would save space! :)

Hmm.... They're not working for you? Too slippery? I take it you are using them properly... if one 'pocket' is WIDER than the other (they are usually not exactly even), make sure it's on the right to take the back-cover and the CD. The booklet goes into the 'shorter' one on the left... the flipping it over just so that the spine-bend is at the place right between the pockets. The aesthetic of looking at spines is infringed upon, no doubt... but I find it the best compromise between looks, accessibility, and space/weight-savings. I just don't put SACDs in them, so that they stand out of the collection more prominently.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ciel_Rouge on October 11, 2009, 03:41:57 AM

I have just been shocked to discover a keyboard sonata by Haydn that strongly resembles Beethoven's Moonlight:

Sonata in E Flat Adagio E Cantabile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWsNZoS6Ops

I never got very much into Haydn's music as the most famous pieces I stumbled upon were too much on the "jolly tune" side for me but having also discovered a symphony that appeared somewhat romantic, I changed my mind and decided to turn to Haydn recordings. Just thought I'd let you know about another Haydn convert.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: greg on October 11, 2009, 05:23:18 AM

Quote from: Ciel_Rouge on October 11, 2009, 03:41:57 AM
I have just been shocked to discover a keyboard sonata by Haydn that strongly resembles Beethoven's Moonlight:

Sonata in E Flat Adagio E Cantabile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWsNZoS6Ops

I never got very much into Haydn's music as the most famous pieces I stumbled upon were too much on the "jolly tune" side for me but having also discovered a symphony that appeared somewhat romantic, I changed my mind and decided to turn to Haydn recordings. Just thought I'd let you know about another Haydn convert.

:o
It is similar...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 11, 2009, 06:55:13 AM

Considering that this sonata Hob. XVI:49 is known as "Genzinger Sonata" - because it was dedicated by Haydn to her noble friend Maria Anna ("Marianne") von Genzinger - probably THIS LINK (http://books.google.cl/books?id=KIMfAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA134&dq=Genzinger+sonata&client=firefox-a#v=onepage&q=Genzinger%20sonata&f=false) to Haydn's Letters will be interesting (especially since June 20, 1790, letter number 46).

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 11, 2009, 09:19:09 AM

Quote from: Ciel_Rouge on October 11, 2009, 03:41:57 AM
I have just been shocked to discover a keyboard sonata by Haydn that strongly resembles Beethoven's Moonlight:

Sonata in E Flat Adagio E Cantabile

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWsNZoS6Ops

I never got very much into Haydn's music as the most famous pieces I stumbled upon were too much on the "jolly tune" side for me but having also discovered a symphony that appeared somewhat romantic, I changed my mind and decided to turn to Haydn recordings. Just thought I'd let you know about another Haydn convert.

Awesome, I love having Haydn Converts stop in a visit. :)

Well, Antoine covered the history quite nicely. It is that sonata #59 that I mentioned to Greg the other night. Composed in early 1790. I will take you up on your idea of Beethoven's c# sonata sounding like it, I have it queued up next on the playlist.

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Vienna Philharnmonic / Karl Böhm 1970 - LvB Symphony #9 2nd mvmt - Molto vivace - Presto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on October 11, 2009, 12:24:43 PM

As if by some miracle, a copy of the Buchberger's Opp. 54/55 appeared in a friend's pile of stuff. I'm sure I was hoping it would have rather have been Opp. 71/74, haha, but...

WOW!

I have only one compare apiece, Endellion/54, Lindsays/55, but from the VERY FIRST note, the Buchbergers appeared astonishingly caffeinated, sloppy, uninvolved, and, as has been said earlier, just a readthrough. The first mvmt. of 54/1 is taken so fast as to bring BugsBunny to mind; and, the same goes for the finale. The Endellion, by contrast, seem to play it just so.

The drama of 54/2 is totally lost, in both the first adagio, and the minuet.

The one thing the Buchbergers did interestingly was the first mvmt. of 54/3, which they took a hair faster than the Endellions, thereby, "congealing" for me, this mvmt., which, in the Endellions hands had given me pause when I first heard it. The Buchberger's playing of this mvmt. has certainly deepened my appreciation of it: there's no telling who's going to do which mvmt. the "perfect" way; however, in the rest of... everything... the Buchbergers come of as incredibly scrappy indeed... bordering on the jawdroppingly bad Haydn playing.

This was truly a revelation, and will be very interested to hear from everyone who has now purchased this set. I can't but in horror wonder if the rest of their stuff is equally third world. Of course, if you disagree with me on 54/55, please do let me know, but, judging from the level of quality amoungst the congregation here, I don't think any of you will hear any poetry coming from this set. I know that Jens has been a very vocal critic of this group, and I simply believe that he hasn't been forceful enough. Truly, as far as four people playing 54/55 on a recording, this I can imagine (in a small field of contenders) IS THE WORST!!! Readthrough.

Even if they get the tempo right elsewhere, or actually play better, I don't think the recording itself will give to much pleasure. The instruments themselves have an unflatteringly raw sound, and the recording is a bit bright and gritty.

They were so bad I was starting to get a thrill, and felt guilty. >:D

Please, please, PLEASE consider this warning, all future potential buyers, until such time as we have truly gotten to the bottom of this. My take is, if the rest of the set sounds anything like 54/55, in sound or performance, than this is THE set to stay away from AT ALL COSTS$$$!!!$$$!!!

DANGER WILL ROBINSON, DANGER! DANGER!

Can I get a witness?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on October 13, 2009, 02:44:22 AM

Hi Lethe,

Sorry to contact you this way, but your PM mailbox is full and rejects incoming messages.

Just wanted to thank you for your recent PM ....

Best wishes .... A

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sorin Eushayson on October 13, 2009, 05:19:46 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 04, 2009, 07:17:15 AM
Again, I love HIP performances too and in this forum anyway, I'm one of the few who actually loves the most radical Beethoven cycle: Norrington's LCP.

Heck yeah - I tip my hat to you, sir! ;D

Quote from: alkan on October 07, 2009, 01:14:30 AM
My favourite modern recording of #101 is currently Kuijken and La Petite Bande. The semi-HIP approach...

Huh??? La Petite Bande is HIP to the core, a Baroque Ensemble playing on guts!

This whole debate about the ordering of the Haydn symphonies is rather confusing... At least the Hoboken catalogue is more category-based instead of trying to list everything (fallibly) like Kochel did with Mozart!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 13, 2009, 05:59:13 PM

Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on October 13, 2009, 05:19:46 PM
Heck yeah - I tip my hat to you, sir! ;D

Huh??? La Petite Bande is HIP to the core, a Baroque Ensemble playing on guts!

This whole debate about the ordering of the Haydn symphonies is rather confusing... At least the Hoboken catalogue is more category-based instead of trying to list everything (fallibly) like Kochel did with Mozart!

Yes, given Haydn's great range of genre's, even though it causes me inconveniences at times, I have to say it is a good approach. Where Hoboken could have done better would have been to try to arrange things within the category chronologically. Or perhaps he did, and the level of knowledge at the time simply wouldn't allow it.... hell, it doesn't really allow it now! :o

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Haydn, Franz Joseph - Hob 01 050 Symphony in C 2nd mvmt - Andante moderato

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 13, 2009, 06:17:15 PM

I think this whole semi-HIP business comes from people expecting that HIP = fast. I've heard just as many modern style performances that are fast as I have period style. Tempo is a very poor indication of whether something is a period performance or not.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 14, 2009, 02:37:09 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on October 11, 2009, 12:24:43 PM
Can I get a witness?

I can't personally testify but can say if Jens is critical of the Buchberger, I'll stay away from their cycle. Over the last three, four years he's been, to me, an unerring guide in the string quartet repertoire. He's been a keen advocate of groups like the Ebène, Mandelring and Jerusalem, quartets I might have overlooked otherwise but which are now among my favorites. I trust the man.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Harry on October 14, 2009, 02:58:48 AM

I think that is a rather dramatic statement, and the Buchberger's do not deserve that, for there is also critical acclaim. True this Haydn may not be for everyones taste, but that doesn't mean that those musicians are sloppy players or lacking in professional integrity. I started with this series and I enjoy them to a certain point, my only quibble being with the choice of tempi, apart from that, they can hold their own on the market, and its certainly no set to shy away from in my opinion.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 14, 2009, 03:31:15 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 14, 2009, 02:37:09 AM
I can't personally testify but can say if Jens is critical of the Buchberger, I'll stay away from their cycle. Over the last three, four years he's been, to me, an unerring guide in the string quartet repertoire. He's been a keen advocate of groups like the Ebène, Mandelring and Jerusalem, quartets I might have overlooked otherwise but which are now among my favorites. I trust the man.

Sarge

Yeah he also likes slow, sedate salon music for Haydn robbed of all vitality just like you. ;D hehehe

Quote from: Harry on October 14, 2009, 02:58:48 AM
I think that is a rather dramatic statement, and the Buchberger's do not deserve that, for there is also critical acclaim. True this Haydn may not be for everyones taste, but that doesn't mean that those musicians are sloppy players or lacking in professional integrity. I started with this series and I enjoy them to a certain point, my only quibble being with the choice of tempi, apart from that, they can hold there own on the market, and its certainly no set to shy away from in my opinion.

QFT. When Jens said that they were sloppy, technically deficient or however he put it, I did listen carefully... and well he's just flat out wrong. I did expect a professional critic to distinguish between artistic choices he disagrees with and sloppy playing. It's not sloppy, it's simply disagreeable to some.

I think that Snips review was a little more honest because he said enough to reveal that he found the tempo choices distasteful. I think that all of Jen's criticism of their playing boils down to him being put off by their rushed tempos, emphatic inflection and choppy phrasing. Those are all a matter of taste. Music is not correct only if played in the romantic style approach of sedate tempos and legato phrasing. In fact it does 18th century composers a disservice. What unifies Snips, Jens and Sarge is that they prefer these things. Whether the performers label themselves as HIP or modern, it gets a thumbs up from those three if the tempos are on the slower side and the melodic line is long and uninterrupted. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2009, 04:35:32 AM

Quote from: DavidW on October 13, 2009, 06:17:15 PM
I think this whole semi-HIP business comes from people expecting that HIP = fast. I've heard just as many modern style performances that are fast as I have period style. Tempo is a very poor indication of whether something is a period performance or not.

QFT.

I don't know about Alkan's personal preferences, so I don't include him in that group, but if, in your mind, you think that any performance that is faster than you expected is HIP; or that any performance that claims to be HIP is automatically going to be faster than you will like, then you need to learn some things. Being constantly exposed to sweeping generalization, essentially ill- informed, gets old after a while... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on October 14, 2009, 06:03:40 AM

Quote from: Sorin Eushayson on October 13, 2009, 05:19:46 PM
Huh??? La Petite Bande is HIP to the core, a Baroque Ensemble playing on guts!

Yes, I made a mistake. I was thinking of Fischer and the AH Orchestra.

Now that we seem to be into a debate on HIP, here is what it means to me.

1. A new point of view compared to the "conventional" readings that I have heard before.
2. Greater transparency and leaner, thus allowing me to discover new things
3. Some original and thrilling sounds, usually in the brass/woodwind/percussion sections

I think that Haydn's symphonies are particularly fruitful for HIP ....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2009, 06:25:10 AM

Quote from: alkan on October 14, 2009, 06:03:40 AM
Yes, I made a mistake. I was thinking of Fischer and the AH Orchestra.

Now that we seem to be into a debate on HIP, here is what it means to me.

1. A new point of view compared to the "conventional" readings that I have heard before.
2. Greater transparency and leaner, thus allowing me to discover new things
3. Some original and thrilling sounds, usually in the brass/woodwind/percussion sections

I think that Haydn's symphonies are particularly fruitful for HIP ....

Yep, that would be a good example.

I agree with your 3 points, those are all attractions for me, too. It's funny to me that I can fairly easily identify any number of HIP performances by performers if I have heard them before, since they each seem to have a unique take on things. But You could play me 10 different modern instrument/interpretation performances that I was very familiar with, and I wouldn't be able to identify a single one of them. I know because I've tried it. Sad. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 14, 2009, 08:20:45 AM

I have been listeningh to Haydn Symphony 39 played by David Blum and The Esterhazy Orchestra. Listening to this has prompted some thoughts about Haydn performance practice which I'll post -- though I am sure that what I have to say isn't quite right yet!

There's a generation of Haydn performers which is sandwiched between HIP and Big Band. They used modern instruments and small orchestras and were informed by the HIP movement with regard to balance, rhythms, tempos etc. There's Blum and the Esterhazy, Jones and the Little London Orchestra, Solomon and L'Estro Armonico. And I see Woldike as in this group, even though his orchestra is relatively large.

I like this style -- traditional big band Haydn hides a lot of the music because the balances favour the strings so much. And very often the result is stodge -- like in Beecham's last recording of the late Londons (he's better in the earlier Londons.) Of course some of the old school conductors were more sympathetic to Haydn than Beecham - I like Fricsay; I like Van Beinem. And Scherchen has his moments (in 80 for example). And Klemperer is amazingly transparent given the size the machine he is driving.

I need to explore real HIP Haydn more - Fey with the Heidelberger Sinfoniker seems to me to often sound brash and brassy - and mannered, with hairpin changes of tempo and pointless mammoth changes in dynamics. He captures the mad maverik genius quality of Haydn -- at the expense of the grace and style. And Fey is deadly earnest -- I find that completely repellent.

I have some Kuijken -- a set containing 88 -- but it has left no impression on me at all. I know he has his fans and I will give him another go -- recommendations appreciated.

I haven't heard Brueggen's Haydn yet - I must do that.

So who is working in this intermediate style today? Three come to mind. Mackerras (just -- he's over 80 I think); Harnoncourt (He's no spring chicken either.) And The Orpheus Chamber Orchestra.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 14, 2009, 08:45:57 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 14, 2009, 08:20:45 AM
So who is working in this intermediate style today? Three come to mind. Mackerras (just -- he's over 80 I think); Harnoncourt (He's no spring chicken either.) And The Orpheus Chamber Orchestra.

Russell Davies has just finished his complete cycle and he fits in that group. Obviously the Fischer cycle from the 90s fits in, but that's not today, that's yesterday. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Joe Barron on October 14, 2009, 08:57:03 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 30, 2009, 01:39:42 PM
Great story, Joe, thanks for the link. If I lived in Philadelphia, I would most certainly be there. Your story does clarify the point that I brought up in my post the other night; dating some of these works is more than a little difficult. :)

8)

With some of the pieces, the best you can say is that it was written before such and such a date. Grove gives the year for for one of the work in the program as "by 1781," although the style suggests it could have been written 10 to 20 years earlier.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: not edward on October 14, 2009, 09:04:36 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2009, 04:35:32 AM
QFT.

I don't know about Alkan's personal preferences, so I don't include him in that group, but if, in your mind, you think that any performance that is faster than you expected is HIP; or that any performance that claims to be HIP is automatically going to be faster than you will like, then you need to learn some things. Being constantly exposed to sweeping generalization, essentially ill- informed, gets old after a while... :)

8)

Yeah, and if you believe that I've got some HIP performances from the 1950s conducted by Hermann Scherchen.

After all, his 1958 Eroica uses hard timpani sticks! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on October 14, 2009, 09:14:52 AM

Quote from: DavidW on October 14, 2009, 03:31:15 AM
I think that Snips review was a little more honest because he said enough to reveal that he found the tempo choices distasteful. I think that all of Jen's criticism of their playing boils down to him being put off by their rushed tempos, emphatic inflection and choppy phrasing. Those are all a matter of taste. Music is not correct only if played in the romantic style approach of sedate tempos and legato phrasing. In fact it does 18th century composers a disservice. What unifies Snips, Jens and Sarge is that they prefer these things. Whether the performers label themselves as HIP or modern, it gets a thumbs up from those three if the tempos are on the slower side and the melodic line is long and uninterrupted. ;D

I should hope that my criticism of the Buchbergers be considered a little more carefully than through out-of-context paraphrases from another poster in this forum or your own presumptions. I've stated in my reviews of the bit of the Haydn Quartets that I have reviewed so far (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=592 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=592) & http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=558 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=558)) that I like the tempo choices of the Buchbergers... but not always their playing. True, in op.17 I find them rather (more?) unsatisfactory... the review of op.17 isn't up yet, though. I think the little quote below shows that I operate at least with some modicum of temperateness when making judgments on these matters:

QuoteThe Buchberger Quartet (Brilliant) tend to open the quartets with a very fast first movement (especially no.1, no.5, no.6); we get a much more deliberate Moderato from the Kodály Quartet (Naxos)—befitting the intermittent 'pedal point' in no.1, lavish in no.5, sensuous in no.6, but notably less nippy. That trend continues throughout most movements of op.9, even where the timings don't indicate that: the Buchbergers, unlike their Hungarian colleagues, don't skip any repeats . Occasionally the Naxos players have at little glue on their soles compared to the Brilliant band. The sound is comparable: well caught but in neither case the last word in quartet-refinement. The Buchberger's tone is a little more direct and rough, the Kodály's rounder. Wherever the tempos are similar or the Kodály faster, the considerably greater refinement of the latter wins out to my ears. In short: Buchberger for buoyancy, Kodály for caring phrasing.

Cheers & best regards,

jfl

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2009, 09:37:35 AM

Quote from: edward on October 14, 2009, 09:04:36 AM
Yeah, and if you believe that I've got some HIP performances from the 1950s conducted by Hermann Scherchen.

After all, his 1958 Eroica uses hard timpani sticks! :D

Case in point.I haven't heard his Haydn, but everything else I've heard by him just flies! Point being, not too many will say that he was attempting a HIP performance, at least I haven't ever read so. :)

8)

Hard sticks? Travesty! :o :o ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 14, 2009, 09:42:09 AM

That Haydn series by Scherchen is quite extraordinary in its way. Maybe not so interesting in the London symphonies -- but I would be very curious to know if anyone thinks he is surpassed in 80 -- HIP or not. And same in 88 -- which is strange but powerful.

Scherchen's 80, by the way, is, at the moment, most favourite symphony recording in the world. At the moment.

Part of the challenge is that there are so many interesting Haydn symphonies and so few really interesting performances on record.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on October 14, 2009, 08:53:24 PM

salon music? :o

Sorry, I didn't mean to bring Jens into it (wasn't that in the META-4 Op.55 post?), but I just felt that strongly about what I heard: caffeinated tempos, readthrough passion (read: none), phrasing???, sorry, but what I heard in 54/55 waaas slopppy in the really fast ornamental stuff (keep in mind that Haydn had started utilizing the Mozart slither... that chromatic up and down that it so characteristic of the era- and these guys are just not up to the Kodaly in sheer basic terms.

And, sonically, I thought the recording sounded a bit Iron Curtain era,... mmm, just bright and not so flattering, I dunno,... someone out there has it, you tell me.

As far as tempos, puh-leez,... the Lindsays can be counted upon to deliver the crispest, cleanest, and spot on super fast finales (despite their reputation in other matters), and the Endellions are reliable...you're just not allowed to go faster than this, it's true, I'm not making this up :-\. There are rules to playing this stuff, no? I'm not arguing.

If ANYONE thinks their 54/1, first mvmt., is not cartoonishly fast, I would say, a recital group channeling the Emersons on acid, haha,...all the great moments on these sets are ruined, in one way or another, especially the LvB bit in 54/2, and the f-minor slow intro of the "Razor" (that's? passion???). I DID like some things they did, but it is all quite irrelevant in the balance.

but, tempo aside, I'm sorry, but I heard, was it bad playing, or just bad Haydn playing? The lead violinist? Since others feel differently, I won't go on, but on this particular issue, 54/55, a very demanding set, and one that haaas already super great interpretations by most everyone, the Buchberger can't compete at all. My money's on that.

Perhaps they do other Haydn "phases" better. Still, I guess if you guys like them, ok, but for anyone coming new to this group, I will stand out as a great big WARNING. I'd steer ya towards the Kodaly for the cheap option, or, selectively, the Lindsays (read some reviews; there cheap, too); however, my personal recommendation is to get a different group for each opus!, based on research, and then some!!! and then keep going...what's Haydn worth ya?

I'm so glad we're all friends again! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on October 14, 2009, 11:43:55 PM

Still no Festetics, snyprrr? ::)

Enjoying the journey and saving the best for last, are you? 8) ;D

Anyway, I can't wait for your comments on them sizzling and shooting across this thread. :)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 15, 2009, 03:07:56 AM

Quote from: DavidW on October 14, 2009, 03:31:15 AM
Yeah he also likes slow, sedate salon music for Haydn robbed of all vitality just like you. ;D hehehe

I do? I didn't realize the Quatuor Mosaiques' Haydn or the Jerusalem's (my favorite Haydn groups) are slow and sedate. I think you are confusing speed with vitality. They aren't the same. But anyway, better slow and sedate than frenetic and unfeeling. But I understand you have that little ADD problem, David ;) Apparently you need performances that get the music over with as quickly as possible because you're always in danger of losing interest and falling asleep ;D But the slow pace of the 18th century combined with mostly amateur playing make it highly unlikely these quartets were played terribly fast. HIP=rushed speeds? I don't think so.

As for the accusation that the speeds I like turn Haydn into salon music: I think fast speeds actually do that. Haydn is often accused of being minor league because his music is perceived as light-weight and essentially "happy." The speed demon condutors and quartets just reinforce that perception. The music is played so fast there's little room for emotional inflection; no plumbing the depths. Listen to the way Weil, for example, plays a slow movement compared to Bernstein or Klemperer. Who's taking Haydn seriously? Who's bringing out the deep emotions? A perfect example of this in the quartets was posted a few weeks ago by Antoine: clips from op.9 by the Festetics and London Haydn. The Festetics make the music sound like it was written by Papa Haydn: insignificant music for the parlor; nothing to take seriously. Just slam bam, get it over with as quickly as possible. The London Haydn, though, at a far slower tempo, realize the profound depths that are inherent in the music. Suddenly we're hearing the Haydn that could have influenced Beethoven.

That you couldn't hear that is astonishing to me. In fact, you heard the exact opposite. You wrote: The Festetics Quartet plays passionately [speed equals passion to you ??? I feel sorry for your significant other :D ], and the London Haydn Quartet is dull as dishwater. The latter makes Haydn sound pretty and that's it, the former found the emotional heart of the piece."

I'm flabbergasted (yes, my flabbers are gasted). The London Haydn, merely pretty? The Festetics found the emotional heart? Unreal. To my ears they just played it fast, completely missing not only the heart of the music, but the emotional depths. Que mentioned the London Haydn missed the wit. Is there even supposed to be wit in that first movement? Can't Haydn ever be taken seriously? Must he always be a joke? I guess you all want easy listening Haydn, a composer to put a smile on your face while not thinking too hard about life. A Haydn that doesn't disturb...which is perfectly okay. Enough groups cater to that taste. To each his own. Me, I'll take "slow and sedate" ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: ChamberNut on October 15, 2009, 04:33:26 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 15, 2009, 03:07:56 AM
[speed equals passion to you ??? I feel sorry for your significant other :D ]

Sarge

Funny one! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Harry on October 15, 2009, 04:41:27 AM

I have sampled a few of performances this morning, and there is a fine balance of cheerful, light, but also serious music making, that keeps a good middle of all what I have heard.
The slow movements are weighty and probes at times very deep, the fast movements have bite and a pleasant urgency. The recordings are lucid and forward.
Nothing wrong with the Buchbergers, they are good musicians well motivated and very precise in their executions of Haydn's notes, true to the intent of the composer.
That my two cents of course.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on October 15, 2009, 04:55:09 AM

Joseph Haydn will be very pleased with these altercations over his music.

Music is alive when people can still get passionate and dissonant about it.

What I find most touching in this l'il fracas (fracatello?), is the memory of a big spat David and I had years ago, and at the center of it, as I recall were some Haydn quartets, too.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2009, 05:58:25 AM

QuoteBut the slow pace of the 18th century combined with mostly amateur playing make it highly unlikely these quartets were played terribly fast. HIP=rushed speeds? I don't think so.

I'm sorry to have to get into any sort of disagreement with you, Sarge, but there is more than one error of fact in this one sentence, and I think that it colors your outlook in general.

Haydn wrote his quartets from Op 1-50, not for amateurs, nor even for sale to amateurs (although that was a nice bonus (not for him, but for a publisher. He didn't make anything until Op 33)). They were written to be performed informally by himself and the members of the Esterhazy orchestra, which included people like Luigi Tommasini, one of the great fiddlers of the time, and Anton Kraft, an equally renowned cellist. These people were hardly amateurs, nor would they have found any amusement in playing music written for amateurs when they were playing for themselves, and for fun. It is, in fact, highly LIKELY that they were played at tempo. With Haydn himself playing the viola, if the score said 'allegro', they damn well played allegro. So please, toss that mental picture out the window. It is fallacious. :)

Now, I like math as well as the next person, but HIP=rushed is so out of date. Back in the '70's when you were trying out that newfangled "HIPpie" stuff, the probability was high that it seemed rushed. Not only was it played uptempo (and probably a bit more than the players could handle at that speed) but in contrast to the "101 strings" sound of Montovani it seemed even worse than it was. Well, things have moved on since then. Not only are players better able to handle accurate tempos and still play accurately, but the tempos themselves have found a sort of equilibrium and settled into where they need to be. I don't give a damn, allegro is allegro, and if you don't like it allegro, you need to listen to it allegretto as you wish, but it doesn't follow that this gives you license to trash allegro-ists. :D

Of course, you can give David a hard time whenever you want. He's a sort of extremist, not like me at all... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 15, 2009, 06:05:50 AM

Quote from: Herman on October 15, 2009, 04:55:09 AM
Joseph Haydn will be very pleased with these altercations over his music.

Music is alive when people can still get passionate and dissonant about it.

What I find most touching in this l'il fracas (fracatello?), is the memory of a big spat David and I had years ago, and at the center of it, as I recall were some Haydn quartets, too.

I remember that too! :) We are still passionate about Haydn today, and it does please me to be going back and forth with Jens, Sarge and snips like this. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 15, 2009, 06:17:45 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 15, 2009, 03:07:56 AM
I do? I didn't realize the Quatuor Mosaiques' Haydn or the Jerusalem's (my favorite Haydn groups) are slow and sedate.

I haven't heard Jerusalem, but QM is too slow. HIP is not the same as fast, remember that!! :)

QuoteI'm flabbergasted (yes, my flabbers are gasted). The London Haydn, merely pretty? The Festetics found the emotional heart? Unreal. To my ears they just played it fast, completely missing not only the heart of the music, but the emotional depths.

London Haydn is merely pretty not due to the tempo, but due to their very poor inflection. How can you find depth in music with such phrasing problems? QM suffers that problem as well. If you want a not so rushed performance that is not as problematic when it comes to phrasing, try Tatrai Q instead. It's a little grim for me, but obviously much better playing than what you've been listening to! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on October 15, 2009, 06:19:44 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 15, 2009, 03:07:56 AM
(...) better slow and sedate than frenetic and unfeeling. But I understand you have that little ADD problem, David ;) Apparently you need performances that get the music over with as quickly as possible because you're always in danger of losing interest and falling asleep ;D But the slow pace of the 18th century combined with mostly amateur playing make it highly unlikely these quartets were played terribly fast. HIP=rushed speeds? I don't think so.(...)

QuoteAs for the accusation that the speeds I like turn Haydn into salon music: I think fast speeds actually do that. Haydn is often accused of being minor league because his music is perceived as light-weight and essentially "happy." The speed demon condutors and quartets just reinforce that perception. The music is played so fast there's little room for emotional inflection; no plumbing the depths. Listen to the way Weil, for example, plays a slow movement compared to Bernstein or Klemperer. Who's taking Haydn seriously? Who's bringing out the deep emotions? A perfect example of this in the quartets was posted a few weeks ago by Antoine: clips from op.9 by the Festetics and London Haydn. The Festetics make the music sound like it was written by Papa Haydn: insignificant music for the parlor; nothing to take seriously. Just slam bam, get it over with as quickly as possible. The London Haydn, though, at a far slower tempo, realize the profound depths that are inherent in the music. Suddenly we're hearing the Haydn that could have influenced Beethoven

Quote(...) The Festetics found the emotional heart? Unreal. To my ears they just played it fast, completely missing not only the heart of the music, but the emotional depths. Que mentioned the London Haydn missed the wit. Is there even supposed to be wit in that first movement? Can't Haydn ever be taken seriously? Must he always be a joke? I guess you all want easy listening Haydn, a composer to put a smile on your face while not thinking too hard about life. A Haydn that doesn't disturb... (...)

Sarge

A few observations! :)

A: I don't think the Festetics play that fast. Yes, the faster mvts are swift but the in the slower mvts they can actually take things quite leisurely.

B: I don't see how slow equals profundity, nor that "wit" would equal the opposite. I feel that Haydn's wit is actually a strong expression of his intellectual and emotional profundity. Bringing that out where it is there in the music, is bringing out Haydn's personal touch and doing justice to the originality and character of his music. Of course it is hard to describe what "wit" in the context of Haydn is, but IMO certainly not just turning things into a joke or making music sound "light-weight". In any case, that is not what I hear in the Festetics' approach to Haydn.

Sarge, are your impressions also based on listening to that QF opus 50 that you ordered recently? :)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on October 15, 2009, 06:45:35 AM

Next on my Haydn list is op.17--and entering the ring are: Quatuor Festetics, Haydn String Quartet, Buchberger, Kodaly, and the Auryn Quartet.

I don't expect I'll come to conclusions that will be universally supported and shared... but perhaps a little closer to the core that is at the diverging opinions here.

I should also mention that I think Sarge's objections have been simplified and then taken down... which is a bit of a straw man. I'm sure he's not in need of a primer on how HIP has changed in the last 30 years. We're talking to Sarge--an open-minded set of ears, as far as I can tell--and not Pinchas Zukerman.

Only slightly related: Next Tuesday I'm on a mission to show precisely that--the advances of HIP in the last 30 years--to my parents who still think that St.Martin-in-the-Fields is the way to play Vivaldi. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2009, 06:47:47 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on October 15, 2009, 06:45:35 AM
Only slightly related: Next Tuesday I'm on a mission to show precisely that--the advances of HIP in the last 30 years--to my parents who still think that St.Martin-in-the-Fields is the way to play Vivaldi. ;D

Who will you be employing in that little adventure, Jens?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 15, 2009, 07:28:56 AM

Quote from: Que on October 15, 2009, 06:19:44 AM

Sarge, are your impressions also based on listening to that QF opus 50 that you ordered recently? :)

Q

No, no...my main thrust was about the Buchbergers which, everyone seems to agree, play the music very quickly--too fast for some (even too fast for their own talent?), perhaps even riding roughshod over the music. I don't know of course. That's simply the impression I got from Snyprrr's rather graphic description and Jen's statements. Based solely on the comments here, both pro and con, they probably are not going to be my favorite Haydn ;)

I've listened to the Festetics op.50 once so far. I found nothing objectionable and much to enjoy but they aren't going to replace my Tokyo set. I liked the Festetics take on that op.9 movement, too, but found nothing exceptional about it; nothing to make me run off and buy it anyway. It sounded exactly the way most quartets would play the music. The London Haydn, on the other hand, made me sit up and listen. They discovered something new in the music and I loved what I heard. The comment David made ("dull as dishwater") I assume is a manifestation of his unfortunate mental conditional which, I'm told, can be remedied with meds now ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 15, 2009, 07:55:37 AM

Quote from: DavidW on October 15, 2009, 06:17:45 AM
I haven't heard Jerusalem, but QM is too slow.

Why? Why are they too slow? Which movements, which works? Or are you making a blanket statement about their entire output? They've done nothing right?

QuoteHIP is not the same as fast, remember that!! :)

Huh? Remember that ??? That's what I've been preaching for years. Both the London Haydn and Mosaiques are period groups. Obviously I have no nonsensical belief that HIP equals fast. My argument for the past three or four years here has been that too many conductors, artists, groups, equate speed with HIPness and in doing so distort the music; play it in a way Haydn or Mozart wouldn't even recognize.

QuoteLondon Haydn is merely pretty not due to the tempo, but due to their very poor inflection. How can you find depth in music with such phrasing problems? QM suffers that problem as well.

I don't hear phrasing problems. The professional critics who love these performances haven't heard problems either. But you have. Hmmm. Where exactly do they go wrong? Enlighten me? Enlighten the world! ;D

Quote from: DavidW on October 14, 2009, 03:31:15 AM
What unifies Snips, Jens and Sarge is that they prefer these things. Whether the performers label themselves as HIP or modern, it gets a thumbs up from those three if the tempos are on the slower side and the melodic line is long and uninterrupted. ;D

And you prefer fast tempos with the melodic line short and interrupted, choppy. And for you that's great phrasing?--the only way it should be played? That the right way to play Haydn? Fascinating. Do you think Haydn played it your way? Have you heard his recordings? ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 15, 2009, 08:36:01 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 15, 2009, 07:55:37 AM
Why? Why are they too slow? Which movements, which works? Or are you making a blanket statement about their entire output? They've done nothing right?

I have heard all of their Haydn recordings and found that applies to all. That doesn't mean that I'm making a sweeping generalization, that means that they approach his body of string quartets with the same approach.

QuoteI don't hear phrasing problems. The professional critics who love these performances haven't heard problems either. But you have. Hmmm. Where exactly do they go wrong? Enlighten me? Enlighten the world! ;D

Circular, of course those that love the performances haven't heard problems! :D But let's look at a more critical review from Classics Today shall we?

Quote from: HurwitzUnfortunately, the result here is little short of disastrous. This has to be some of the ugliest quartet playing masquerading under the rubric of "authenticity" that you will ever hear.

Quote from: HurwitzHideous timbre is in any case the least of this group's problems. Just listen to the opening movement of the D minor quartet. Yes, the tempo is marked moderato, but that does not mean "trudge". Nor does it mean "play everything legato, with no rhythmic definition whatsoever". Phrases trail off into nothingness, and Haydn's expressive lines degenerate into an inarticulate mess.

Hey what do you know? He has the same opinion that I reached, and I only read his review right this moment! :D Edit: Wait have I, perhaps I've read it before when we talked about this a couple of months ago. Dang my memory!!!

Here read it yourself-- http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11339

QuoteAnd you prefer fast tempos with the melodic line short and interrupted, choppy. And for you that's great phrasing?--the only way it should be played? That the right way to play Haydn? Fascinating. Do you think Haydn played it your way? Have you heard his recordings? ;D

Sarge

Predominantly legato phrasing is an invention of the 19th century. Some pre-19th century music is played legato, BUT much more often short phrasing is used. And yes I have heard HIP recordings that inappropriately use short phrasing when it really was supposed to be long, but most of the time that doesn't happen. The result of using incorrect phrasing and yes the word is INCORRECT, is that you fundamentally alter dynamics, adding crescendos that weren't present before or not honoring them, both in order to preserve an unbroken melodic line that doesn't actually exist. Do I think Haydn played his music with short phrasing? You're damn right he did! :D

I find it fascinating that in the same post you claim to know how he wants his music played and then you assert that we can't know how he would want his music played. Pretty inconsistent if you ask me. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on October 15, 2009, 08:59:00 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2009, 06:47:47 AM
Who will you be employing in that little adventure, Jens?

8)

If I had my way, Alessandrini's Four Seasons (the recording of choice: http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=122 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=122))
Alas, my copy is at a different address, so I'll use Il Giordino Armonico, instead.

For Bach, I will use Egarr's Brandenburgs... (perhaps juxtaposed to Rilling and Busch) and if they let me, I might also juxtapose the Messiah of Rene Jacobs with that of Malcolm Sargent. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2009, 09:39:18 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on October 15, 2009, 08:59:00 AM
If I had my way, Alessandrini's Four Seasons (the recording of choice: http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=122 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=122))
Alas, my copy is at a different address, so I'll use Il Giordino Armonico, instead.

For Bach, I will use Egarr's Brandenburgs... (perhaps juxtaposed to Rilling and Busch) and if they let me, I might also juxtapose the Messiah of Rene Jacobs with that of Malcolm Sargent. ;D

Nice grouping there. Even Il Giardino... although I am a Biondi fan, especially his earlier effort, nonetheless, I freely admit to a lot of nice ways to play it.

Well, if they aren't sold after that, don't know if they ever will be. I love it when converts are made. Do your best... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on October 15, 2009, 12:00:01 PM

ok, well, mayb e I was a dick earlier. I just compared Op.55 with the Buchberger's and the Lindsays. Funny, everything seems to be backwards from what I originally might have thought... oops!, those emotions again, haha...

First thing is, that "sandpaper" sound I heard was the CELLO playing in the HIP-ish non-vibrato way, haha, NOT the recording, wow, I feel silly. I guess my problem is, I can't "hear" HIP unless I'm doing a side by side comparison with...hrrhmm..."normal" playing, haha. So, slow mvmts. like 55/3 have that "baroque" feeling, all the slow lines going in the same direction with absolutely no vibrato.

When I was actually able to compare timings, they were really all pretty equal (Lindsay and Endellion and BB), so, it wasn't normally a speed issue, especially in Op.55 (there waaas the cartoonish 54/1). Like I said before, it is the LINDSAYS which have the fastest finales around, and in 55/3 they make what the BBs make serviceable, they make it exhilarating.

No, I was checking 55/1, the very high flyin Mozart sounding SQ, and, the BBs sounded fine, until I put on the Lindsays and heard what I was missing, in terms of excitement. So, in this particular case (which I didn't listen to the first time around) the BBs fared competently on the face of it, but when faced with the likes of the woodsy/gutsy Lindsays version-on-fire, they become "dull as dishwater."

The place where they greatest difference occurs for me is in the very pointed menuettos (and finales). The BBs, on the face of it, sound fine, but when compared with the extremely snappy and pointed Lindsays, the BBs again suffer.

Once again, it is in the finales that the Lindsays astonish in comparison. I think it was 55/3, but it is the one with the really really fast violin runs, but once again, when I put on the BBs first, they sounded perfect, but when I put on the Lindsays, the difference was... astonishing (don't we love that word?!).

What I heard in the slow opening of the f-minor was simply the non-vibrato sound making me think "out-of-tune". Sorry, that's MY ears! ;D

I don't know if BBs are supposed to be HIP, or semi-HIP, but when compared to a full blooded folk-combo like the Lindsays, the BBs soouund HIP. If I would have known that, maybe I would have listened differently. If they ARE HIP, then I can only hope that the Festetics are superior in EVERY way. The BBs certainly don't have the Mosaiques cinematic sound (which, I don't necessarily like, either).

My main objections came in Op.54, anyway, which I haven't yet compared side by side, but I still know they aren't doing anything special with 54/2, and 54/1 still has major problems. Hey, if ya didn't know better, you'd probably think they're ok, so, please forgive me for saying they couldn't play. I'm just not too hip on how they do it (no pun).

Once again, if the BBs are HIP, that would help my understanding (I guess that's why everyone's so hot for them?). The notes don't indicate, and, admittedly, their interesting history seems to belie them being HIP; but, for being around since 1974, I can't understand their approach here with Haydn?

So, it's not necessarily that they play all things too faaast; if they are HIP, then I would consider that they play a touch leisurely. By comparison, the Lindsays are like bright eyed, and bushy tailed squirrels, finding teeming life in every phrase of this music, and it is the LINDSAYS which take most everything as fast as it can go whilst still sounding logical.

Hey, sorry, I must have been in a blackout! ::)

btw- I just saw that the Smithson Quartet has just released Op.9/5, and Op.17 3&5 on Dorian. Anyone?

ok, that's enough ranting from me on the subject. All this has done is make me want to buy more stuff, arrgh!!! :P I want to find the "perfect" 54/2, yea, right!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on October 15, 2009, 04:16:09 PM

I am ready to apply for lifetime membership at Haydn Haus.............

A tremendous large recent expansion of my Haydn collection has been a complete revelation!
Chamber music recent additions:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51K84MKR8JL._SL160_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Z4MUZVhEL._SL160_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/511sRQvz52L._SL160_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Yi2Ug8ewL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I have finished the Van Sweiten Piano Trio boxset, wonder stuff at amazingly low price.......I had no idea it would be this good!

Listened to Mosaique Op. 64, 76, 77 SQ box, a vividly recorded beautiful set. Just began the Buchberger complete box, so far Op 9, 17 are just wonderful and exactly what I had hoped for. Very puzzled with the lack of respect this gets in the Haydn SQ thread

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on October 15, 2009, 04:26:01 PM

Also did not neglect solo keyboard works............
I already had the wonderful Brautigam set, added two more to that!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Ej4uzvCsL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Adding

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411DSD2CPAL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51mD7rrZWTL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2009, 05:16:01 PM

That's a really nice chunk of music there for an expansion. Some I have, some I need to get. This is my piano trio set;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/1790v1.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/1790v2.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/1790v3.jpg)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/1790v4.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/1790v5.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/1790v6.jpg)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/1790v7.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/1790v8.jpg)

I got vol 1 in 1999 and vol 8 last week! It was worth the wait though, I am delighted with them. The difference between these and the Van Sweiten's is that the works up to 1780 are played on harpsichord and the ones after on fortepiano. This very closely mirrors reality, since Haydn didn't have a fortepiano before then and almost certainly wrote for harpsichord right up until 1781. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Franco on October 15, 2009, 05:24:58 PM

I can't read the covers. Who is the group?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2009, 05:27:18 PM

Quote from: Franco on October 15, 2009, 05:24:58 PM
I can't read the covers. Who is the group?

Trio 1790. It's 9 disks, volume 8 is a double. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
London Mozart Players / Glover - Hob 01 080 Symphony in d 2nd mvmt - Adagio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 15, 2009, 05:27:36 PM

Quote from: DarkAngel on October 15, 2009, 04:16:09 PM
I have finished the Keyboard Van Sweiten Trio boxset, wonder stuff at amazingly low price.......I had no idea it would be this good!
Listened to Mosaique Op. 64, 76, 77 SQ box, a vividly recorded beautiful set. Just began the Buchberger complete box, so far Op 9, 17 are just wonderful and exactly what I had hoped for. Very puzzled with the lack of respect this gets in the Haydn SQ thread ???

The Van Swieten box is amazing, for once I strongly prefer an ensemble over the Beaux Arts Trio. I think they even out do L'Archibudelli, which I have for the london ones. :)

Very soon I will see how the baryton recordings in the brilliant set stand up, but then since I've only heard one recording before, the competition is not really stiff. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on October 15, 2009, 07:11:40 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2009, 05:16:01 PM
The difference between these and the Van Sweiten's is that the works up to 1780 are played on harpsichord and the ones after on fortepiano. This very closely mirrors reality, since Haydn didn't have a fortepiano before then and almost certainly wrote for harpsichord right up until 1781. :)

Same concept of instrument progression used in Schornsheim piano sonata 13 CD set pictured above, uses 5 different instruments:
Two harpsicords 5 CDs, clavicord 1 CD, two forte pianos 7 CDs.......waiting for arrival :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 16, 2009, 04:22:00 AM

Quote from: DarkAngel on October 15, 2009, 07:11:40 PM
Same concept of instrument progression used in Schornsheim piano sonata 13 CD set pictured above, uses 5 different instruments:
Two harpsicords 5 CDs, clavicord 1 CD, two forte pianos 7 CDs.......waiting for arrival :D

Yes, precisely the same. In fact, in my complete 'project' I use Schornsheim for all the pre-1780 works and Brautigam for the post-1780. IMO, she shines in the earlier works, but can't match Brautigam's energy in the late ones. So a good combination. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 17, 2009, 02:17:44 PM

"No examples of the lira organizzata survive, which is apparently a good thing, since by all accounts this contraption, which combined bagpipe drone with a sort of hand-cranked, bowed guitar, must have sounded horrible".

David Hurwitz, Exploring Haydn. A Listener's Guide to Music's Boldest Innovator, p. 148.

Curious mixture of lack of information and wrong assumptions.

The first three images down are of a lira organizzata copy of one made in 1771, from drawings by the Benedictine monk and organ builder Dom Bedos (1709-1779). The latter image is a lira organizzata (copy of one in the Victoria & Albert Museum, London), used in the DeLirium disc commented in another thread.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2009, 02:51:23 PM

Nice pictures, Antoine. And I have to agree with you, the Hurwitzer has misassumed the Lira altogether. Maybe the description sounds bad, but the instrument sounds very cool. The genuine one used in the Delirium disk has a sound that turns out to be very similar to the little barrel organ that Klocker uses in the Notturnos disk. I find it most enjoyable, possibly because the music is written so idiomatically for the tone color being produced. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03 83 Quartet in d for Strings Op 103 2nd mvmt - Andante grazioso

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 17, 2009, 03:28:06 PM

Did you notice the recording of the five concerti for two lire organizzata in the Brilliant big box set, Gurn? It is an old Vox recording - from the sixties, I believe - with Hugo Ruf playing a true lira organizzata, probably the only operative at that time. Unfortunately, the use of just one instrument sacrifices certain part of the conversational texture of these pieces, but the performance is excellent, with a nice and well recorded instrument.

HERE TWO SAMPLES (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=94518)

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 17, 2009, 05:57:53 PM

Hey! Doesn't Dave (Sonic) have one of those in his livingroom? ;D

(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=14818.0;attach=21384;image)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2009, 06:21:45 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 17, 2009, 03:28:06 PM
Did you notice the recording of the five concerti for two lire organizzata in the Brilliant big box set, Gurn? It is an old Vox recording - from the sixties, I believe - with Hugo Ruf playing a true lira organizzata, probably the only operative at that time. Unfortunately, the use of just one instrument sacrifices certain part of the conversational texture of these pieces, but the performance is excellent, with a nice and well recorded instrument.

HERE TWO SAMPLES (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=94518)

:)

No, I don't have the Big Box yet, I am holding out until I have filled in some other important gaps. The version I have of all 5 is Haydn's transcription for flute and oboe that he made for London (by Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss. Superb!) and then the 1 or 2 that are on Delirium. DavidW has those, that's what he was gushing about last week, how nice they sounded. :) Thanks for the samples, I'll have a go at them now.

Just curious if you, or anyone else, knows the story of that Decca set of the Notturnos by Alan Hacker:

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/28/281954.JPG)

I can't find any info on them, curious if he uses a lira or if this is also the flute and oboe version (which I have by L'Archibudelli). The Hacker is available as an Arkiv disk... :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Rhorer, Jérémie/Le Cercle de l'Harmonie - K 183 Symphony #25 in g 2nd mvmt - Andante

For those who haven't heard this group before, this disk kicks butt and takes names. Very commendable. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2009, 06:22:58 PM

Quote from: Bogey on October 17, 2009, 05:57:53 PM
Hey! Doesn't Dave (Sonic) have one of those in his livingroom? ;D

(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=14818.0;attach=21384;image)

Made it himself, just last week. Harpo helped... ;)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Rhorer, Jérémie/Le Cercle de l'Harmonie - K 183 Symphony #25 in g 4th mvmt - Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 17, 2009, 07:45:59 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2009, 06:21:45 PM
The version I have of all 5 is Haydn's transcription for flute and oboe that he made for London (by Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss. Superb!) ...

Well, then it is decided, I will buy this set:

:D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 17, 2009, 09:59:06 PM

Oh I lost track of this thread! :D The lira on those reissued vox recordings sounds like a small organ, I liked the sound from it, very musical. I might look into Gurn's rec in the future. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2009, 03:28:58 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 17, 2009, 07:45:59 PM
Well, then it is decided, I will buy this set:

:D

That's a hard box to dislike, Antoine. I don't have it, rather, I have the individual disks that make it up, on Koch/Schwann. I spent a long time finding (and affording) these long OOP disks, and had no more than gotten a modest accumulation when BIS released that box. :-\ :) Hopefully they will also release the divertimentos in a box like that! :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Das neue Orchester \ Spering - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 1st mvmt - Allegro ma non troppo, un poco maestoso

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on October 19, 2009, 05:56:31 AM

Review of op.17 (Festetics, London HQ, Kodaly, Buchberger, Auryn) up on WETA.

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Haydn2009_background1.png)

Haydn 2009 – The String Quartets (Part 3)
Op.17 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=856)

What is true for op.9 ("Like all quartets before op.33, they get short shrift—like all quartets
of Haydn that get short shrift, they're still superb. [F]or the ambitious Haydn lover, they're
joyously requisite listening...") is equally true of op.17...

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=856 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=856)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on October 19, 2009, 06:07:23 AM

Longing for those days when there was a superfluous e in Haydn 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2009, 06:15:19 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on October 19, 2009, 05:56:31 AM
Review of op.17 (Festetics, London HQ, Kodaly, Buchberger, Auryn) up on WETA.

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Haydn2009_background1.png)

Haydn 2009 – The String Quartets (Part 3)
Op.17 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=856)

What is true for op.9 ("Like all quartets before op.33, they get short shrift—like all quartets
of Haydn that get short shrift, they're still superb. [F]or the ambitious Haydn lover, they're
joyously requisite listening...") is equally true of op.17...

http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=856 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=856)

More interesting was your review of various "7 Last Words...". Since, of the 4 versions available, after extensive listening I chose exactly the same recordings you did (Savall, Harnoncourt & Brautigam (that's scary! :o )), I guess I'll have to give the Leipzig group a try in the string quartet version. Have they done other of Haydn's quartets? I can't recall seeing them around... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 19, 2009, 08:15:07 AM

Your survey was quite carefully, politically if you will, written Jens. Your opinion is asserted but not brazenly so, hard to find anything to criticize. :) Well if I work at it... ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on October 19, 2009, 09:59:00 AM

Jens - thanks for the positive reviews of the London Haydn Quartet's recordings - all the hideous feedback had put me off, but they sound like my kind of thing. Slow in Haydn can be fine, as long as there is enough detail to merit that playlength, and this group seems to deliver something individual.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on October 20, 2009, 04:46:30 AM

Quote from: DarkAngel on October 15, 2009, 04:26:01 PM
Also did not neglect solo keyboard works............I already had the wonderful Brautigam set, added two more to that!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Ej4uzvCsL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411DSD2CPAL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51mD7rrZWTL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Having great time going through these sonatas.......but I could not resist the "deconstruction" of musical notions
of what Haydn should sound like, yes I have ordered Glenn Gould's sonatas. I have his Mozart sonatas so I am already a fan, others find him maddening and to purists he is a heretic

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/514G7vhIIwL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61skPAMxofL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 20, 2009, 07:27:38 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2009, 05:27:18 PM
Trio 1790. It's 9 disks, volume 8 is a double. :)

I'll also vouch for the Trio 1790 - don't have them in the HaydnPiano Trios (own two other groups mentioned previously), but their recordings of the Bach Brothers, CPE & JC and of Dussek's works are just excellent! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 20, 2009, 11:25:07 AM

Quote from: DarkAngel on October 20, 2009, 04:46:30 AM
Having great time going through these sonatas.......but I could not resist the "deconstruction" of musical notions
of what Haydn should sound like, yes I have ordered Glenn Gould's sonatas. I have his Mozart sonatas so I am already a fan, others find him maddening and to purists he is a heretic

Well, do let us know what your results are. You will certainly have some background to compare it all too. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03 81 Quartet in G for Strings Op 77 #1 2nd mvmt - Adagio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Franco on October 20, 2009, 11:44:42 AM

QuoteI have ordered Glenn Gould's sonatas. I have his Mozart sonatas so I am already a fan

Glenn Gould's Haydn is very interesting. Today I was listening to 61 and 62 and found that aside from a slow tempo in the 2nd mvt of 61, his interpretation was much fun; less heavy than others. I later played Brautigam and McCabe for comparison and was struck by how differently Gould approached the 2nd mvt in 61 from both of them (the one real negative for me in his playing), but in general played with more "wit" than either.

Of the three I'd rank them on the ones I heard today, a purely a personal ranking:

61
1. Brautigam
2. Gould (only because of the tempo in 61/ii)
3. McCabe

62:
1. Gould
2. McCabe
3. Brautigam

But I'd give the edge to Gould regarding sound quality. I find Brautigam's reverbant room less pleasing than a dryer recorded sound. Gould uses very little pedal and the sound is crisp.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on October 20, 2009, 12:23:55 PM

Quote from: Franco on October 20, 2009, 11:44:42 AM
Glenn Gould's Haydn is very interesting. Today I was listening to 61 and 62 and found that aside from a slow tempo in the 2nd mvt of 61, his interpretation was much fun; less heavy than others. I later played Brautigam and McCabe for comparison and was struck by how differently Gould approached the 2nd mvt in 61 from both of them (the one real negative for me in his playing), but in general played with more "wit" than either.

Of the three I'd rank them on the ones I heard today, a purely a personal ranking:

61
1. Brautigam
2. Gould (only because of the tempo in 61/ii)
3. McCabe

62:
1. Gould
2. McCabe
3. Brautigam

But I'd give the edge to Gould regarding sound quality. I find Brautigam's reverbant room less pleasing than a dryer recorded sound. Gould uses very little pedal and the sound is crisp.

Thanks for those impressions Franco.......
When Gould Cds arrive I will do likewise, going through Jando/Naxos piano set now and the Schornsheim/Capricio set just arrived :D

The Gould Mozart sonata set really raises eyebrows because of the extreme tempos variations compared to a "standard" version, but I love them as a challange to convention. Some think this is all foolishness and Gould is mocking the simplicity of Mozart works, others see a wayward genius at work.......

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on October 20, 2009, 12:53:10 PM

Quote from: DarkAngel on October 15, 2009, 04:16:09 PM
I am ready to apply for lifetime membership at Haydn Haus.............

A tremendous large recent expansion of my Haydn collection has been a complete revelation!
Chamber music recent additions:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51K84MKR8JL._SL160_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Z4MUZVhEL._SL160_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/511sRQvz52L._SL160_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Yi2Ug8ewL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I have finished the Van Sweiten Piano Trio boxset, wonder stuff at amazingly low price.......I had no idea it would be this good!

Listened to Mosaique Op. 64, 76, 77 SQ box, a vividly recorded beautiful set. Just began the Buchberger complete box, so far Op 9, 17 are just wonderful and exactly what I had hoped for. Very puzzled with the lack of respect this gets in the Haydn SQ thread

Gurn was right on the mark with his asessment/recommendation of Burchberger/Brilliant boxset of string quartets!

I am 1/2 way throught the set and couldn't be more pleased, these are passionate, bold, dramatic performances with a close listener perspective like you are sitting almost in the group. No booklet but the info CD says members have been playing Haydn SQ for 30+ years
and have long waited to document entire set like this.

I have heard a few comments that they are rough or not prepared, even slack in performance......but I think people are missing the forest by too closely examing individual trees. I am not a professional musician so no comments on if some notes are missed or not in tune etc......I can tell you that the overall effect is very vibrant and eciting, very entertaining.

The Mosaiques/Naive have extremely good sound quality almost holographic 3D presentation, thier style is noticeably different, a more elegant noble style with less raw energy.......very entertaing and satisfying in its own terms. Definitely HIP sound and style but a touch controlled and refined, like playing for the kings court. I prefer the firey passion of Buchberger SQ if I could only have one, sometimes has almost a free wheeling gypsy feel to it :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 20, 2009, 03:01:14 PM

DarkAngel - agree w/ your comments below - I have the complete Burchberger set in the mail at the moment (along w/ some other alternate recordings) - first bought them in the Op. 9 & 17 sets, and enjoyed hence my 'box' purchase. The 'nit-picking & micro-dissection' analyzes going on in the Haydn SQ thread is just too much for me - these are outstanding works that can be enjoyed and played in a variety of ways, and I like to have several versions performed differently - just more interesting; of course, the 'versions' that one selects will be a personal decision, but absolutely no need to 'rant' over one person's preference - there will never be a prefect set of all of these works performed to everyone's satisfaction - even if Papa Joe were here to decide, I'm sure that he would have his own preferences - OH, to have heard him play them himself in a quartet - maybe that would help us to decide? ;) ;D

Quote from: DarkAngel on October 20, 2009, 12:53:10 PM
Gurn was right on the mark with his asessment/recommendation of Burchberger/Brilliant boxset of string quartets!

I am 1/2 way throught the set and couldn't be more pleased, these are passionate, bold, dramatic performances with a close listener perspective like you are sitting almost in the group. No booklet but the info CD says members have been playing Haydn SQ for 30+ years
and have long waited to document entire set like this.

I have heard a few comments that they are rough or not prepared, even slack in performance......but I think people are missing the forest by too closely examing individual trees. I am not a professional musician so no comments on if some notes are missed or not in tune etc......I can tell you that the overall effect is very vibrant and eciting, very entertaining....................

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 20, 2009, 03:24:05 PM

DarkAngel,
I am delighted that you are enjoying those recordings. One thing that no one can ever accuse me of is over-analyzing anything; I look for one thing, which is listening enjoyment. And the disks I heard provided that in a big way. Something that always seems to get lost in the shuffle of 'what's the best recording(s)?' is that what's best for one is not necessarily the best for someone else. Thus Que, Antoine and myself are delighted with Festetics, but not so keen on Mosaiques. But there is nothing wrong with QM, it just is someone else's cup of tea, I guess. If they were all I had, I would be damned happy with them. :D

Dave, our time travel machine will take us back to hear the famous Ditters/Haydn/Mozart/Vanhal 4tet rocking out in 1785. As soon as I get it perfected... maybe time to put the Gurnatron 5500^TM to work on that... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 20, 2009, 03:40:08 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 20, 2009, 03:24:05 PM
Dave, our time travel machine will take us back to hear the famous Ditters/Haydn/Mozart/Vanhal 4tet rocking out in 1785. As soon as I get it perfected... maybe time to put the Gurnatron 5500^TM to work on that... :D

Yes, we've talked so much about that famous quartet - I may have even 'dreamed' about being there? :D

But, can we travel back to hear them (and of course take a Walkman for Papa Joe to listen to the current SQ recordings that we're debating about? ;)) - Dave

(http://www.techchee.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/russian-scientists-say-time-machine-possible-in-three-months-time-fullfil-your-dream-of-time-traveling-080208.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Joe Barron on October 20, 2009, 04:08:21 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 20, 2009, 03:24:05 PM
Dave, our time travel machine will take us back to hear the famous Ditters/Haydn/Mozart/Vanhal 4tet rocking out in 1785. As soon as I get it perfected... maybe time to put the Gurnatron 5500^TM to work on that... :D

Count me in. This is no joke: I've often thought that if I could go back in time to any event in music history, that night in Vienna would be the one. Only I thought it was 1784. Set the wayback machine a year earlier, just to be safe. If we're early, we can hang out for a year.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 20, 2009, 05:03:13 PM

Quote from: Joe Barron on October 20, 2009, 04:08:21 PM
Count me in. This is no joke: I've often thought that if I could go back in time to any event in music history, that night in Vienna would be the one. Only I thought it was 1784. Set the wayback machine a year earlier, just to be safe. If we're early, we can hang out for a year.

OK, Sherman, let's suit up! 1784 would be fine with me; so much to see and hear! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 20, 2009, 06:09:47 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2009, 06:15:19 AM
More interesting was your review of various "7 Last Words...". Since, of the 4 versions available, after extensive listening I chose exactly the same recordings you did (Savall, Harnoncourt & Brautigam (that's scary! :o )), I guess I'll have to give the Leipzig group a try in the string quartet version. Have they done other of Haydn's quartets? I can't recall seeing them around... :)

8)

Which is your favorite ensemble in the string quartet version, Gurn?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on October 20, 2009, 06:17:54 PM

Quote from: Harry on March 09, 2009, 03:20:30 AM
And this ;D

Did anyone take up Harry's challenge and get the complete Baryton 21 CD boxset collection on Brilliant Classics?
I think there are over 100 Baryton trios plus other misc compositions......who has it?

(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=54.0;attach=16166;image)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 20, 2009, 06:26:10 PM

Quote from: DarkAngel on October 20, 2009, 06:17:54 PM
Did anyone take up Harry's challenge and get the complete Baryton 21 CD boxset collection on Brilliant Classics?
I think there are over 100 Baryton trios plus other misc compositions......who has it?

(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=54.0;attach=16166;image)

I haven't yet, but only because I haven't got the Big Box yet. I'm saving that for the last piece of the puzzle. Meanwhile, I do have all 7 Octets, the quintet, and the disk that is missing in the Big Box (#18 in that box) which is the duos and cassations for 2 barytons. IOW, all the miscellaneous. I've got several disks of trios by others, but it will be a pleasure to finally sit down with the whole thing and have a go. Delightful music. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Alban Berg Quartet - Debussy Quartet in g for Strings Op 10 4th mvmt

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on October 20, 2009, 06:34:02 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 20, 2009, 06:09:47 PM
Which is your favorite ensemble in the string quartet version, Gurn?

Perhaps even more insightful what are your top 2-3 versions of Op 17 quartets with brief comment about what are strengths for
each version..........for Gurn or any other member to comment?

Would be interesting to see how other members preferences compare to JL's fine review..........

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 20, 2009, 06:41:34 PM

Quote from: Lethe on October 19, 2009, 09:59:00 AM
Jens - thanks for the positive reviews of the London Haydn Quartet's recordings - all the hideous feedback had put me off, but they sound like my kind of thing. Slow in Haydn can be fine, as long as there is enough detail to merit that playlength, and this group seems to deliver something individual.

Sara - I own both the Op. 9 & 17 recordings w/ the London Haydn Quartet, a 'young' group, however, the performances are well done in a more 'mellow' fashion and an enjoyable listen! The packaging is excellent, i.e. 2 discs in a slim jewel box nicely priced; of course, there are plenty of other options (and interpretation differences) but these recordings are certainly in the competition - :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: greg on October 20, 2009, 06:42:56 PM

Quote from: DarkAngel on October 20, 2009, 06:17:54 PM
Did anyone take up Harry's challenge and get the complete Baryton 21 CD boxset collection on Brilliant Classics?
I think there are over 100 Baryton trios plus other misc compositions......who has it?

(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=54.0;attach=16166;image)

The instrument has a nice sound to it.
There's sound clips here, btw: http://www.haydnbarytontrios.com/

Kind of sounds to me slightly like a lower-pitched version of a nyckelharpa. What'd be awesome is a string section that includes 10 Nyckelharpas and 8 Barytons...

(but it'll never happen :P )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on October 20, 2009, 06:45:08 PM

OK I see what you mean..........
For just over 2x the price of the 21 CD Baryton boxset you can get the huge 150 CD Haydn Brilliant set which includes the Baryton set :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-oKqkjIeL._SS500_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 20, 2009, 06:52:39 PM

Quote from: DarkAngel on October 20, 2009, 06:17:54 PM
Did anyone take up Harry's challenge and get the complete Baryton 21 CD boxset collection on Brilliant Classics?
I think there are over 100 Baryton trios plus other misc compositions......who has it?

(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=54.0;attach=16166;image)

DarkAngel - a number of us, including myself, have purchased the Baryton Box - 21 CDs, including 126 baryton trios on 17 discs, and 4 additional discs of cassations, duets, & octets - I had a about a half dozen of these works on previous recordings, but wanted more, so this box seemed to be the best choice (bought last year on release) - keep in mind that Brilliant makes these releases which may have a 'brief existence' - thus, if you are interested, make a purchase quickly. All that have this box in the forum have been quite pleased as far as I remember - :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 20, 2009, 07:02:59 PM

Quote from: DarkAngel on October 20, 2009, 06:34:02 PM
Perhaps even more insightful what are your top 2-3 versions of Op 17 quartets with brief comment about what are strengths for
each version..........for Gurn or any other member to comment?

Would be interesting to see how other members preferences compare to JL's fine review..........

Oh, dear DarkAngel IMO the string quartet version of The Seven Last Words is very interesting. I have five different recordings of that work and only two complete Op. 17. :)

P.S.: Six... I forgot the Buchberger Quartet.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 20, 2009, 07:06:53 PM

Quote from: DarkAngel on October 20, 2009, 06:45:08 PM
OK I see what you mean..........
For just over 2x the price of the 21 CD Baryton boxset you can get the huge 150 CD Haydn Brilliant set which includes the Baryton set :)

That's what I have. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on October 20, 2009, 11:11:02 PM

Quote from: Greg on October 20, 2009, 06:42:56 PM
There's sound clips here, btw: http://www.haydnbarytontrios.com/

Most of the works are in A, D, or G major. And no minor scale works -- these were clearly meant for dinner music. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on October 21, 2009, 04:14:36 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 20, 2009, 07:02:59 PM
Oh, dear DarkAngel IMO the string quartet version of The Seven Last Words is very interesting. I have five different recordings of that work and only two complete Op. 17. :)

P.S.: Six... I forgot the Buchberger Quartet.

Antoine I have been very pleased recently buying many items you feature in your posts, keep up the great recommendations and I will be sure and check them out......the people in Haydn Haus thread have recently cost me a small fortune :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2009, 04:29:50 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 20, 2009, 07:02:59 PM
Oh, dear DarkAngel IMO the string quartet version of The Seven Last Words is very interesting. I have five different recordings of that work and only two complete Op. 17. :)

P.S.: Six... I forgot the Buchberger Quartet.

Antoine,
Well, both your question about 7 last words and DarkAngel's about Op 17 catch me in a bad way. I only have one version currently of 7 last.... and that is the Kodaly's, and I don't like it. It seems weightless. On Que's recommendation, I am going to hunt down the Terpsychore's version, but it requires going to Europe for, so I haven't done it yet. I would be curious to know YOUR favorite version, since you seem to have plenty from which to choose!

DA, you may (or not) know that I am not so much a version collector as a 'complete works' sort of collector. So if I have a version that I really like, I simply stop looking for another and move on to a different work. In the case of Op 17, I started out with the Kodaly's, liked the music but found the version didn't satisfy my sense of PI/HIP aesthetic, and got the Festetics. I was totally satisfied with that, and so I don't have any other version to compare. I am totally no fun at this game... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2009, 04:34:35 AM

Quote from: DarkAngel on October 20, 2009, 06:45:08 PM
OK I see what you mean..........
For just over 2x the price of the 21 CD Baryton boxset you can get the huge 150 CD Haydn Brilliant set which includes the Baryton set :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-oKqkjIeL._SS500_.jpg)

Yes, plus all that other stuff (the van Sweiten Trios, complete keyboard sonatas, most SQ's, complete symphonies &c, &c, &c.) Seems like the more prudent buy, somehow, unless you already have all that other stuff... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on October 21, 2009, 04:35:06 AM

That Haydn Edition 150 CD boxset by Brilliant Classics is only $140 at Amazon USA...............

But I already have the Fischer symphonies, Buchberger string quartets and Van Swieten piano trios included in that set, so too late for me I am afraid. I am intertested in Baryton Trios........but 21 Cds maybe overkill

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2009, 04:38:32 AM

Quote from: opus106 on October 20, 2009, 11:11:02 PM
Most of the works are in A, D, or G major. And no minor scale works -- these were clearly meant for dinner music. ;)

Well, after dinner music. There actually are a few works in the minor (one in b minor that I remember well, and a few others), but mainly yes, those 3 major scales. Of course, it goes without saying that the tuning of the strings in the back is the limiting factor, yes? In order to play in another key, one would have to retune those 9 (or more) strings... :-\

Anyway, not so much dinner music. The Prince himself played them with Haydn and Kraft, so they were clearly intended to be serious music, to whatever level of capability that the Prince attained. They do get progressively more difficult... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2009, 04:40:46 AM

Quote from: DarkAngel on October 21, 2009, 04:35:06 AM
That Haydn Edition 150 CD boxset by Brilliant Classics is only $140 at Amazon USA...............

But I already have the Fischer symphonies, Buchberger string quartets and Van Swieten piano trios included in that set, so too late for me I am afraid. I am intertested in Baryton Trios........but 21 Cds maybe overkill

Well, I don't think they sold them as single disks. Which would have been a nice thing, but not the Brilliant way... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 21, 2009, 04:44:22 AM

Quote from: DarkAngel on October 21, 2009, 04:35:06 AM
That Haydn Edition 150 CD boxset by Brilliant Classics is only $140 at Amazon USA...............

But I already have the Fischer symphonies, Buchberger string quartets and Van Swieten piano trios included in that set, so too late for me I am afraid. I am intertested in Baryton Trios........but 21 Cds maybe overkill

All you miss out on are some of the masses, oratorios, songs and solo keyboard music of which you probably already have better recordings of anyway.

If you want a single baryton trio cd look for the old Hsu recordings. Well the one I used to have is pricey and OOP so why not this one--

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41N11ZR3QFL._SS400_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Divertimenti-Franz-Joseph/dp/B000001QBA)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2009, 04:48:02 AM

Quote from: DavidW on October 21, 2009, 04:44:22 AM
All you miss out on are some of the masses, oratorios, songs and solo keyboard music of which you probably already have better recordings of anyway.

If you want a single baryton trio cd look for the old Hsu recordings. Well the one I used to have is pricey and OOP so why not this one--

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41N11ZR3QFL._SS400_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Divertimenti-Franz-Joseph/dp/B000001QBA)

Oh, that's a good one, I enjoy it much! And these 2:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XSQQ0MVML._SL500_AA240_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5157FR4B8RL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

That's all the trios I have right now, although there are a coupe more disks out there by others. There is quite a bit of duplication once you get beyond these 3. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Franco on October 21, 2009, 05:03:02 AM

I like The Amadeus Quartet in the Op. 51.

I just checked out some disks from my local library of various SQ doing Haydn:

Emerson - The Haydn Project: Not to my taste. The playing is impeccable but seems not to capture the spirit of Haydn and leaves me cold.

Takacs - Opp. 76/1-2 & 103: Very nice, something I will expand on with other recordings if they exist (Edit: not much else out there, a recording of Op. 33, but sadly no more Haydn). I like the sound of this quartet in this music, hits me in the gut.

Kodaly - Op. 77/1-3 - Okay, a middle of the road recording, IMO.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on October 21, 2009, 05:35:15 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2009, 04:38:32 AM
Well, after dinner music. There actually are a few works in the minor (one in b minor that I remember well, and a few others), but mainly yes, those 3 major scales. Of course, it goes without saying that the tuning of the strings in the back is the limiting factor, yes? In order to play in another key, one would have to retune those 9 (or more) strings... :-\

Anyway, not so much dinner music. The Prince himself played them with Haydn and Kraft, so they were clearly intended to be serious music, to whatever level of capability that the Prince attained. They do get progressively more difficult... :)

8)

My bad, I must've missed the B minor one.

P.S.: Everybody: stop tempting me with the Haydn box! >:(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2009, 05:47:05 AM

Quote from: opus106 on October 21, 2009, 05:35:15 AM

P.S.: Everybody: stop tempting me with the Haydn box! >:(

Aw, c'mon, Navneeth, you know you want it... ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Franco on October 21, 2009, 06:02:42 AM

If I didn't already have the same Adam Fischer Symphony set, and a two complete cycles and several individual CDs of the string quartets (I'm going to look for more from the Takacs after hearing their Opp. 76/103) and keyboard sonatas (I think the set by a female keyboardist that starts on harpsichord and ends up on fortepiano, can't think of her name - Sorenestorn or something like that ); I'd be sorely tempted as well.

But, I'll no doubt get some of the baryton works at some point just to hear that contraption, and definitely the Masses, probably the Trinity Choir set just released. I'll expand my Piano Trio BAT set with some period instrument recordings and see how I like those before jumping in with the Van Sweeten or Trio 1790- but that may eventually be a done deal too.

Haydn is among my top three (Bach and Stravinsky are the other two), so, there's no such thing as too much.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on October 21, 2009, 06:06:34 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2009, 05:47:05 AM
Aw, c'mon, Navneeth, you know you want it... ;)

8)

Yes, I do. :( In fact, I've been putting off buying the individual boxes like ones with the piano trios and the symphonies waiting for a good price on the big box.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2009, 06:46:31 AM

Quote from: opus106 on October 21, 2009, 06:06:34 AM
Yes, I do. :( In fact, I've been putting off buying the individual boxes like ones with the piano trios and the symphonies waiting for a good price on the big box.

;D

I could have written that myself, with the exception that i already had the symphonies before Brilliant even bought the rights from Nimbus.... but rumors of a Big Box kept me from the trios and sonatas back from the time they were released. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on October 21, 2009, 06:48:48 AM

Quote from: George on October 21, 2009, 06:38:44 AM
Indeed. Their CDs should come with a sweater. ;D

Don't much like their "Haydn Project" for the same reasons (where's the wit???)-- but their 7 Last Words recording is curiously excellent!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 21, 2009, 07:02:26 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on October 21, 2009, 06:48:48 AM
Don't much like their "Haydn Project" for the same reasons (where's the wit???)-- but their 7 Last Words recording is curiously excellent!

Well, I'd certainly agree w/ Jens - I own two SQ versions of this work, i.e. Emerson SQ & Tatrai Quartet - I've not done any 'back to back' comparisons, but the latter has been in my collection for years.

Now, Haydn wrote 4 different versions of this work - orchestra, string quartet, keyboard, and choral piece (modified) - I have the choral work below which is a knockout! Scott Morrison summarizes his thoughts on this disc HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Seven-Last-Words-Christ/dp/B000E6G7CU/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1256136873&sr=1-2), if interested? :D

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41XTQm6cLvL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on October 21, 2009, 07:18:31 AM

Quote from: SonicMan on October 21, 2009, 07:02:26 AM
Well, I'd certainly agree w/ Jens - I own two SQ versions of this work, i.e. Emerson SQ & Tatrai Quartet - I've not done any 'back to back' comparisons, but the latter has been in my collection for years.

Now, Haydn wrote 4 different versions of this work

btw. the post(s) on the 7 Last Words Gurn referred to is here: http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=593 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=593).
One of my more intricate attempts (as regards form, if perhaps not content).

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Haydn2009_background1.png)

Haydn 2009 – The Seven Last Words (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=593)

(also: http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=347 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=347))

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2009, 07:30:26 AM

Quote from: SonicMan on October 21, 2009, 07:02:26 AM
Now, Haydn wrote 4 different versions of this work - orchestra, string quartet, keyboard, and choral piece (modified)

Just being a picky bastard because that's the way I am, so sue me. Haydn didn't actually do the keyboard version himself. Its arranger is unknown, very likely a friend of Artaria. Haydn did, in fact, not only enthuse over the score, but also did the corrections on it for the final release, likely as a favor for Artaria and to make a shekel or two on the transaction. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 21, 2009, 07:35:19 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on October 21, 2009, 07:18:31 AM
btw. the post(s) on the 7 Last Words Gurn referred to is here: http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=593 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=593).
One of my more intricate attempts (as regards form, if perhaps not content)............

Jens - thanks for the link - just finished reading your excellent reviews on these different versions of the 7LWs - think that I'll need to refine & expand my collection of these versions! :D Dave

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on October 21, 2009, 07:44:06 AM

Quote from: SonicMan on October 21, 2009, 07:35:19 AM
Jens - thanks for the link - just finished reading your excellent reviews on these different versions of the 7LWs - think that I'll need to refine & expand my collection of these versions! :D Dave

Or, as a very good friend of mine replied to that post:

QuoteI'm sure God will forgive you for promoting one of Haydn's most boring pieces, clearly intended to drive people away from Christianity.

Come to think about it... it is a little boring, ain't it. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 21, 2009, 07:50:44 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on October 21, 2009, 07:44:06 AM
Or, as a very good friend of mine replied to that post:
Come to think about it... it is a little boring, ain't it. ;D

Well, I've culled out a number of previous SQ recordings over the years, and rarely pop it into my CD player - ;) ;D

But, I must listen to that choral version again soon! - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Todd on October 21, 2009, 08:29:03 AM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZUa2BVnyL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I've started my long journey through Dennis Russell Davies' new complete cycle with the Stuttgarter Kammerorchester on Sony. So far I've made it through the first four discs. The recordings are in up-to-date sound (would Daimler Benz have funded it and accepted anything else?), and the playing is all extremely polished and attractive. That written, they lack just a bit of the verve of Adam Fischer's cycle. And can they be too polished? Could a little more scruffiness, if you will, sound even better?

The recordings were all made live over the course of 11 years, and it appears that the audiences were small along with the orchestra. That small orchestra, presuming it stays with its current dimensions, may hamper the late symphonies.

Looks like I made the right call to order it a couple months ago; the price has already jumped from $74 to $130 at Amazon. Will it have been worth the outlay, and do I need to hear a second complete cycle? I'm betting yes on both counts.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2009, 09:55:27 AM

Quote from: Todd on October 21, 2009, 08:29:03 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZUa2BVnyL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I've started my long journey through Dennis Russell Davies' new complete cycle with the Stuttgarter Kammerorchester on Sony. So far I've made it through the first four discs. The recordings are in up-to-date sound (would Daimler Benz have funded it and accepted anything else?), and the playing is all extremely polished and attractive. That written, they lack just a bit of the verve of Adam Fischer's cycle. And can they be too polished? Could a little more scruffiness, if you will, sound even better?

The recordings were all made live over the course of 11 years, and it appears that the audiences were small along with the orchestra. That small orchestra, presuming it stays with its current dimensions, may hamper the late symphonies.

Looks like I made the right call to order it a couple months ago; the price has already jumped from $74 to $130 at Amazon. Will it have been worth the outlay, and do I need to hear a second complete cycle? I'm betting yes on both counts.

Ah, Tod, thanks for sharing this with us. Not sure if anyone else is hearing these yet.

Well, as for polish, you probably would get some argument, but IMO, yes indeed, they certainly can have a bit too much. This has been a topic of discussion concerning the quartets, and it is equally applicable to the symphonies.

The first 2/3 or 3/4 of them should do quite nicely with a small group. Until 1773 or 74 (so, symphonies up through 72 or so), when Esterhazy got its own opera company, he was only writing for 15-18 players anyway. That number enlarged a little then, up to 25-28 at best. The Paris symphonies saw a bit of a jump and then the London's of course, where you could really go with a full orchestra (if you were an musical animal! :D ). So you're right, unless he grows it a bit, 15-20 players will work their butts off with 'Military"... :D

It sounds as though you have already heard the Fischer, or at least some of it. I think the style of that cycle is pretty darn good for modern instruments, so if you want to look for contrasting performances, that should be your choice. Just my opinion. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on October 21, 2009, 10:10:15 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2009, 09:55:27 AM
I think the style of that [Fischer] cycle is pretty darn good for modern instruments

I listened to the clip of an early symphony a couple of hours ago and was surprised/pleased(?) to find the use of a harpsichord in the background. I think I read that Mackerras used a harpsichord for the early Mozart symphonies in his cycle. That's a nice touch.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 21, 2009, 11:03:08 AM

Quote from: DarkAngel on October 21, 2009, 04:14:36 AM
Antoine I have been very pleased recently buying many items you feature in your posts, keep up the great recommendations and I will be sure and check them out......the people in Haydn Haus thread have recently cost me a small fortune :)

That's great, DarkAngel! The kindest of all composers - a real friend like Haydn - deserves that small fortune. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 21, 2009, 11:12:22 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2009, 04:29:50 AM
Antoine,
Well, both your question about 7 last words and DarkAngel's about Op 17 catch me in a bad way. I only have one version currently of 7 last.... and that is the Kodaly's, and I don't like it. It seems weightless. On Que's recommendation, I am going to hunt down the Terpsychore's version, but it requires going to Europe for, so I haven't done it yet. I would be curious to know YOUR favorite version, since you seem to have plenty from which to choose!

Hi, Gurn. For some reason I feel a deep and special connection with The Seven Last Words of Our Lord on the Cross; that's the reason because I have 13 different versions of this work: 6 for string quartet, 2 choral, 4 on fortepiano and one orchestral version.

During awhile my favorite string quartet version was by the Quatuor Mosaïques because of its like-orchestral (even "symphonic") style, IMO rather suitable for this specific work. But currently my preferences are with the Kuijken String Quartet. IMO its performances are totally placed into the string quartet genre; with every voice preserving its individuality, but in perfect communication with the other voices. Without to mention an all-stars ensemble: Sigiswald Kuijken (1st violin), François Fernandez (2nd violin), Marleen Thiers (viola) and Barthold Kuijken (violoncello)... Cheap, but unfortunately only available in Japan, AFAIK. :-\

HERE A LINK (http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=COCO-70520)

:)

P.S.: Certainly Wieland, not Barthold Kuijken. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2009, 11:22:15 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 20, 2009, 06:09:47 PM
Which is your favorite ensemble in the string quartet version, Gurn?

Well, by odd coincidence, my post about not having another version of this for SQ became invalid about an hour ago, when the Quatuor Terpsycordes suddenly became available as a download on Amazon. Just queuing it up now, so we'll see. If I love it, I'll order the disk, even if I have to go all the way to Holland for it... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Franco on October 21, 2009, 11:25:17 AM

That Kuijken String Quartet recording (and any others) is something I would want to hear.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2009, 11:26:27 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 21, 2009, 11:12:22 AM
Hi, Gurn. For some reason I feel a deep and special connection with The Seven Last Words of Our Lord on the Cross; that's the reason because I have 13 different versions of this work: 6 for string quartet, 2 choral, 4 on fortepiano and one orchestral version.

During awhile my favorite string quartet version was by the Quatuor Mosaïques because of its like-orchestral (even "symphonic") style, IMO rather suitable for this specific work. But currently my preferences are with the Kuijken String Quartet. IMO its performances are totally placed into the string quartet genre; with every voice preserving its individuality, but in perfect communication with the other voices. Without to mention an all-stars ensemble: Sigiswald Kuijken (1st violin), François Fernandez (2nd violin), Marleen Thiers (viola) and Barthold Kuijken (violoncello)... Cheap, but unfortunately only available in Japan, AFAIK. :-\

HERE A LINK (http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=COCO-70520)

:)

P.S.: Certainly Wieland, not Barthold Kuijken. :)

So, that's what I get for typing slowly. :D

Well, that looks interesting, I am always interested in the work of the Kuijken's. If this current version doesn't work out for me, I will give this other a try. I have been wanting something by the Terpsychordes for a while now, this seemed like the perfect opportunity. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: greg on October 21, 2009, 11:30:38 AM

Quote from: opus106 on October 20, 2009, 11:11:02 PM
Most of the works are in A, D, or G major. And no minor scale works -- these were clearly meant for dinner music. ;)

Well, it is Haydn after all...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 21, 2009, 11:38:53 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2009, 11:22:15 AM
Well, by odd coincidence, my post about not having another version of this for SQ became invalid about an hour ago, when the Quatuor Terpsycordes suddenly became available as a download on Amazon. Just queuing it up now, so we'll see. If I love it, I'll order the disk, even if I have to go all the way to Holland for it... :D

8)

I have a Schubert's Death and the Maiden by them. Nice performance, but not "too much" HIP, although they play on period instruments. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2009, 11:50:46 AM

Quote from: Greg on October 21, 2009, 11:30:38 AM
Well, it is Haydn after all...

Yeah, can you imagine trying to eat to Xenakis? ::)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: greg on October 21, 2009, 11:54:06 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2009, 11:50:46 AM
Yeah, can you imagine trying to eat to Xenakis? ::)

8)

That would be an interesting experience. Especially with one of his string ensemble works.
You'll hear some crunching and wonder if you just broke a tooth...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on October 21, 2009, 11:57:29 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2009, 11:50:46 AM
Yeah, can you imagine trying to eat to Xenakis? ::)

Maybe some stuffed grape-leaves.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: rubio on October 25, 2009, 01:19:19 PM

I managed to find a copy of this set. Not excacctly cheap, but worth it (for me that is :)). This is traditional Haydn, but with such sensitive style from Woldike and the Vienna Stae Opera Orchestra. There are plenty of poise, elegance and subtle nuances to be savoured. Nice dancing rhythms and beautiful playing there is as well.

(http://image.allmusic.com/00/acg/cov200/cl200/l271/l271885e076.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 25, 2009, 03:45:11 PM

Well, first I've become somewhat reluctant to post to this thread - just too much animosity and unnecessary personal argumentative responses (now out to 27+ pages!); yes, I know that many of these posts are likely 'kindly jests' but really does not help the novice in making decisions on choosing these recordings. Haydn's String Quartet output is unique and wonderful - many recordings are available of these compositions, most already mentioned & discussed w/ overtly wrought opinions, at least in my mind. Papa Joe's contribution to this genre is amazing and most offerings warrant a balanced and calm analysis; all have their merits and negatives; and of course personal preferences will be strong influences for all of us, i.e. likely just 'one interpretation' will not due - these works are just opened to so many performance options. Just suggesting some unifying opinions, esp. for those who may be reading this thread and trying to make some 'first' decisions - :)

Second, I've been refining my own collection of Haydn's String Quartets - now I've been collecting these works first on LP since the 70s and then on CD in 1984 to the present. so plenty of listening & culling over those decades. My recent purchases are shown below (all already discussed in these pages); the Buchberger Box on the Brilliant label is a great bargain, if one wants the entire collection; however, reviews & comments here have been quite mixed, both excellent & derogatory - are the latter really deserved? Over the weekend I've listen to the Op. 9 - Op. 20 recordings of both groups below - the Buchberger Quartet have been in existence since 1974 - 35 years! They have been concentrating on this Haydn genre, both in recordings and in live performances - the lead violinist is a Professor who has obviously researched this material for a third or more of a century - I just feel that this group understands these works and have made choices as to their performances regarding instruments, repeats, tempos, etc. - I've attached four screen captures from the CDROM that comes in this box which describes some of their 'reasons' for performing these works - these are really not BAD musicians with no experience w/ this repertoire - they know these works well and decided to perform them as to their understanding - I accept & appreciate this approach; so far, I'm enjoying these performances - are they my favorite? Don't know - but if one wanted a 'box set' of Haydn's SQs, I would suggest this one as an option.

Now, as to the Quatuor Festetics discs below - just finished up on those listenings - really enjoy this group (obviously favored by some our esteemed members on this forum) - their tone is somewhat 'warmer' and more melodious vs. the Buchberger Quartet; however, the later is more edgy & aggressive - personally, I don't mind either approach - this music is so well composed that a number of interpretative approaches will do for me - I'll keep both recordings. HERE, the music is the important issue, the way the works are performed is secondary in my mind (others will obviously disagree, but w/o having Haydn here to give us his opinion - who knows?). Now, I did enjoy the QF recordings that I plan to order another 3 sets to replace some of my other recordings of late Opus numbers - this is indeed a superb group and some excellent recordings; thus, I must join those here that have recommended this group! :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnSQsBuchUpload/690033833_9xfoK-O.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnQFOp9/691192191_KPVRH-O.jpg)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnQFOp17/691192213_n6UPi-O.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnQFOp20/691192228_hyP7y-O.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 26, 2009, 05:32:40 PM

Quote from: opus106 on October 21, 2009, 10:10:15 AM
I listened to the clip of an early symphony a couple of hours ago and was surprised/pleased(?) to find the use of a harpsichord in the background. I think I read that Mackerras used a harpsichord for the early Mozart symphonies in his cycle. That's a nice touch.

Some time ago I did read an interesting article by Jamie James (October 2, 1994, New York Times) (http://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/02/arts/recordings-view-he-d-rather-fight-than-use-keyboard-in-his-haydn-series.html) , which discuses the use of continuo, especially harpsichord, in Haydn symphonies. This issue was especially controversial when Christopher Hogwood and Roy Goodman assumed antagonic positions in his own cycles.

I recalled it today when I was listening to these superb Haydn symphonies with continuo:

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 26, 2009, 05:49:34 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 26, 2009, 05:32:40 PM
Some time ago I did read an interesting article by Jamie James (October 2, 1994, New York Times) (http://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/02/arts/recordings-view-he-d-rather-fight-than-use-keyboard-in-his-haydn-series.html) , which discuses the use of continuo, especially harpsichord, in Haydn symphonies. This issue was especially controversial when Christopher Hogwood and Roy Goodman assumed antagonic positions in his own cycles.

I recalled it today when I was listening to these superb Haydn symphonies with continuo:

:)

Interesting article, Antoine. I'm pleased that it ended as it did, with no "positively must be this way" sort of assertion. There is no right or wrong of it. It's quite true, continuo was going away at that time, it may well even be that for some symphonies he wanted it and for others not. it is generally conceded that Haydn himself played the violin at Esterhazy performances (Wyn Jones "Oxford Companion "Haydn" - Performance Practice), so he wouldn't have been writing it to give himself something to do. :) I think Hogwood's argument that the music room where these were played was too small to accommodate a harpsichord, and didn't have one in any case, does rather deliver a blow. That said, I do rather enjoy the continuo in the Goodman versions.... :-\

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Apollo Ensemble \ Hsu - Hob 01 044 Symphony in e 4th mvmt - Finale: Presto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 26, 2009, 06:17:56 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 26, 2009, 05:49:34 PM
Interesting article, Antoine. I'm pleased that it ended as it did, with no "positively must be this way" sort of assertion. There is no right or wrong of it. It's quite true, continuo was going away at that time, it may well even be that for some symphonies he wanted it and for others not. it is generally conceded that Haydn himself played the violin at Esterhazy performances (Wyn Jones "Oxford Companion "Haydn" - Performance Practice), so he wouldn't have been writing it to give himself something to do. :) I think Hogwood's argument that the music room where these were played was too small to accommodate a harpsichord, and didn't have one in any case, does rather deliver a blow. That said, I do rather enjoy the continuo in the Goodman versions.... :-\

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Apollo Ensemble \ Hsu - Hob 01 044 Symphony in e 4th mvmt - Finale: Presto

I totally agree with you, Gurn. Both positions can produce fine musical results and to argue historical reasons.

What's your opinion about that Apollo Ensemble that you are listening to? :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 26, 2009, 06:27:32 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 26, 2009, 06:17:56 PM

I totally agree with you, Gurn. Both positions can produce fine musical results and to argue historical reasons.

What's your opinion about that Apollo Ensemble that you are listening to? :)

Oh, they're brilliant. They put me in mind of the Solomons group. No continuo in sight... :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Tafelmusik / Bruno Weil - Hob 23b 02 Salve Regina pt 1 - Salve Regina: [Adagio]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 26, 2009, 07:35:40 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 26, 2009, 05:32:40 PM
Some time ago I did read an interesting article by Jamie James (October 2, 1994, New York Times) (http://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/02/arts/recordings-view-he-d-rather-fight-than-use-keyboard-in-his-haydn-series.html) , which discuses the use of continuo, especially harpsichord, in Haydn symphonies. This issue was especially controversial when Christopher Hogwood and Roy Goodman assumed antagonic positions in his own cycles.

Antoine - thanks for the link above - enjoyed the article and controversial discussion that may never be resolved? But, obviously these works can be performed and enjoyed in a number of ways - :)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 26, 2009, 05:49:34 PM
Interesting article, Antoine. I'm pleased that it ended as it did, with no "positively must be this way" sort of assertion. There is no right or wrong of it. It's quite true, continuo was going away at that time, it may well even be that for some symphonies he wanted it and for others not. it is generally conceded that Haydn himself played the violin at Esterhazy performances (Wyn Jones "Oxford Companion "Haydn" - Performance Practice), so he wouldn't have been writing it to give himself something to do. :) I think Hogwood's argument that the music room where these were played was too small to accommodate a harpsichord, and didn't have one in any case, does rather deliver a blow. That said, I do rather enjoy the continuo in the Goodman versions.... :-\

Gurn - agree w/ the statement in bold at the end of your quote above - I have about a half dozen of the Goodman discs and have always enjoyed them - these are on the Helios label - curious if this cycle was completed and whether a Hyperion 'box set' might be the future? Dave

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 26, 2009, 07:48:28 PM

Haydn's Seven Last Works of Christ on the Cross (Septem Verba Christi in Cruce) - orchestral version w/ Jordi Savall and Le Concert des Nations (2006); Francisco Rojas, Evangeliste, speaking the 'words' in Latin before each of the seven movements (extra beginning and ending movement).

Well, I've owned a number of String Quartet versions of this composition (and a choral one); also, have the keyboard transcription on the way - this and the keyboard ones stimulated by an excellent review by Jens HERE (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=593) - the booklet is HUGE (155 pages) mainly because the notes are printed in seven languages (a coincidence?) - :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnLWordsSavall/694025406_RC5pe-O.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on October 26, 2009, 10:56:44 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 26, 2009, 05:32:40 PM
Some time ago I did read an interesting article by Jamie James (October 2, 1994, New York Times) (http://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/02/arts/recordings-view-he-d-rather-fight-than-use-keyboard-in-his-haydn-series.html) , which discuses the use of continuo, especially harpsichord, in Haydn symphonies. This issue was especially controversial when Christopher Hogwood and Roy Goodman assumed antagonic positions in his own cycles.

I recalled it today when I was listening to these superb Haydn symphonies with continuo:

:)

Nice article. Thanks, Antoine. Unrelated to the issue of using a continuo in a symphony, is the issue of Haydn getting "rid of the harpsichord in the string quartets." Would someone care to explain that to me, please? :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on October 26, 2009, 11:06:23 PM

What I picked up from this article is that Hogwood is continuing his Haydn series on Hyperion.
Interesting, I didn't know that! :o :)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on October 26, 2009, 11:36:21 PM

Quote from: Que on October 26, 2009, 11:06:23 PM
What I picked up from this article is that Hogwood is continuing his Haydn series on Hyperion.
Interesting, I didn't know that! :o :)

What the heck? This is amazing - if bizarre - news.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on October 26, 2009, 11:48:17 PM

Quote from: Lethe on October 26, 2009, 11:36:21 PM
What the heck? This is amazing - if bizarre - news.

That article was published 15 years ago. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on October 27, 2009, 01:19:43 AM

Quote from: opus106 on October 26, 2009, 11:48:17 PM
That article was published 15 years ago. ;D

:'(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 27, 2009, 04:43:08 AM

Quote from: opus106 on October 26, 2009, 10:56:44 PM
Nice article. Thanks, Antoine. Unrelated to the issue of using a continuo in a symphony, is the issue of Haydn getting "rid of the harpsichord in the string quartets." Would someone care to explain that to me, please? :)

Navneeth, I think that the author had some sort of brain fart there. What I can only think he means (which I know about) is that Haydn finally got rid of the idea of continuo in the quartets. Not necessarily played on harpsichord, mind you, just the use of the cello (or other baß instrument) to play a continuo part (visualize a trio sonata where the cello doubles the left hand of the cembalo). This was something that he had to overcome in his own writing, since the concept was so ingrained that the whole conceptualization of a work included figuring the continuo. That vestige of Baroque/pre-Classical was the last hurdle in front of 'modern' chamber music. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on October 27, 2009, 04:58:18 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 27, 2009, 04:43:08 AM
Navneeth, I think that the author had some sort of brain fart there. What I can only think he means (which I know about) is that Haydn finally got rid of the idea of continuo in the quartets. Not necessarily played on harpsichord, mind you, just the use of the cello (or other baß instrument) to play a continuo part (visualize a trio sonata where the cello doubles the left hand of the cembalo). This was something that he had to overcome in his own writing, since the concept was so ingrained that the whole conceptualization of a work included figuring the continuo. That vestige of Baroque/pre-Classical was the last hurdle in front of 'modern' chamber music. :)

8)

I see. Thanks for clearing that up, Gurn. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 27, 2009, 05:34:22 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 27, 2009, 04:43:08 AM
Not necessarily[/i] played on harpsichord, mind you, just the use of the cello (or other baß instrument) to play a continuo part (visualize a trio sonata where the cello doubles the left hand of the cembalo).

That's rather the case of the violoncello, for instance, in the early piano trios. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 27, 2009, 05:38:59 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 27, 2009, 05:34:22 AM
That's rather the case of the violoncello, for instance, in the early piano trios. :)

Quite so, and not just the really early ones either. It was a difficult thing for Haydn to shake off, and vestiges of it come back even in the late-middle period (1780's). I read an interesting essay on this topic that I'll dig out and excerpt, if there is any interest in it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on October 27, 2009, 05:56:35 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 27, 2009, 05:38:59 AM
I read an interesting essay on this topic that I'll dig out and excerpt, if there is any interest in it. :)

8)

Most definitely there is, unless of course it very technical.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 27, 2009, 05:57:31 AM

Quote from: opus106 on October 27, 2009, 05:56:35 AM
Most definitely there is, unless of course it very technical.

Hmmph. As though I would understand it if it was... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on October 27, 2009, 06:01:48 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 27, 2009, 05:57:31 AM
Hmmph. As though I would understand it if it was... :D

8)

Stop showing off your humility. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on October 27, 2009, 06:09:41 AM

Quote from: opus106 on October 27, 2009, 06:01:48 AM
Stop showing off your humility. ;)

We know-it-alls gather at The Diner.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Todd on October 27, 2009, 08:48:19 AM

I've worked my way through another four discs of the new Davies symphony cycle, and these four discs are better than the first four. The discs present a wide array of symphonies - from the times of day symphonies up to the 72nd - and all come off well. The times of day symphonies (6-8) are all splendid, as expected, and the energy level on some of the "later" symphonies (ie, around 20 and above) has picked up. The polish is still there, too. I did compare Adam Fischer's take to Davies' for the 72nd, and Davies' takes a slower sounding approach for the slow movements, but is otherwise perhaps a bit peppier. Sound is much better in the new set. Hopefully the next round is better yet.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on October 27, 2009, 09:49:58 AM

Quote from: Que on October 26, 2009, 11:06:23 PM
What I picked up from this article is that Hogwood is continuing his Haydn series on Hyperion.
Interesting, I didn't know that! :o :)

Q

Quote from: opus106 on October 26, 2009, 11:48:17 PM
That article was published 15 years ago. ;D

Indeed - oooops! :o ;D Shows how reliable record companies are... 8)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on October 29, 2009, 11:32:58 AM

I've corresponded with a few others here who have also felt skittish about posting lately, and I'm just saying sorry if it's because of me. I dare say that it is because of me that this thread has ballooned to 28 pages, for good or ill, but hey, I can't think of any other "music+performance" topic, other than Haydn SQs, which can engender so many different responses (because there are so many worthwhile, one-off, performances?).

Almost 20 years ago, when I was "searching", the Kodaly introduced me to Haydn SQs, much to my initial frustration (a) the music wasn't what I was looking for at the time, b) the Kodaly's middlin' performances couldn't turn the music around for me). When I dove back into Haydn in May of this year, I had my hopes up that I had been wrong earlier, and that there truly was a banquet here.

Op.20/2 in C major was the SQ that brought me into the fold. The baroque sounding slow mvmt. hooked me. So, from then on, I slavishly sought out the whole era's nuggets, piece by piece. When it came to Haydn SQs, I totally relied on your all good people's wisdom (some of it clashing!), while the library had sets by the Amadeus and Kodaly and QM.

Now, one thing I've noticed is, that not every group does well in every opus number of this repertoire: the Kodaly is a great example. Some of their cds are top choice for some, whilst in other places they are merely serviceable. I do like their Op.77; perhaps their Op.55 is not the greatest . And so on.

When it comes to the current issue at hand, I remind all that I had the Opp. 54/55 issue of the Buchberger set. From the first note of 54/1 I was in shock; when I came to (my second full post, when I compared with the Endellion and Lindsays), I believe I had a clearer view. You can see for yourselves that I was balanced (I chose BB over Endellion in 54/3). I also scratched my head when I finally read about the BBs hailing from 1974. I should really have liked them, and, maybe, they work better in the earlier opera (everyone seems to be gaga over Opp. 9/17 lately because of the new competition, which I welcome, surely). I can see where they might appeal to me more in the earlier context. Which brings me to...

the HIP thing. All I can say is, whenever I've heard a DIRECT comparison between HIP and non-HIP, the HIP recording always ends up sounding baroque to me. When I hear it by itself,...no problem. When I hear modern by itself,... no problem. But, when I compare directly, it sounds as though I'm listening to two different styles of music. And, so, maybe that's my problem, and I will deal with it accordingly.

And, not all HIP is created equal. I have totally enjoyed the Salomon Quartet in the "English SQs" cd, and really want to hear them in Haydn (verrry $$$). Their HIP-ness doesn't sound as all encompassing as, say, the QM, with their built in orchestral ambience. Some of the CPO bands (Nomos, Revolutionary Drawing Room, Pleyel Quartet, Haydn Quartet) seem to have struck a perfect balance.

I still haven't heard the Festetics, sorry to Que (because this computer won't do ANYTHING >:D), but, of course, I feel obligated by now, haha. No, seriously, I just wish I had more insight here.

And then there's this new Auryn cycle that seems to be having people do cartwheels of joy; and, I believe they're supposed to be modern, right?

When I initially mistook the Buchberger's HIP-ness for "suck-ness", I think I embarassed myself ::) :P :-[ :-X :-\ :-*!! They ARE HIP, right? Maybe there are people out there right now who are actually saying that very thing about the whole HIP thing, and I'm sure some take it a bit far (who?), but I don't have any bias either way. It's not politics with me.

My personal theory for Haydn (and this is JUST FOR ME) is that Opp. 9/17/20 should be played HIP, Op.33 is special, Op.50 is special, and from Op.54 on, I just want to hear what EYE want to hear. That means, I want to be selfish and just hear those bands which I choose for my own selfish reasons, whatsoever they may be. This is just my personal thing, and wouldn't bring it into any argument (though 9/17/20 being HIP seems kinda obvious, no?).

On the one hand, I'm glad we're starting to get a glut of recordings; on the other, no one seems to be willing to buy EVERYTHING, and then let us poor ($$$) folks know which way to the mountain. Jens, of course, has done great service, but I'm sure even he can't get EVERYTHING (or,... can he?,hmmm ;D).

Personally, I don't want to get the whole Aeolian set just to compare it to the Angeles, or Kodaly, or whatever. Still, we haven't heard word ONE about this band (are they now obsolete?). And, what of the Angeles? Are they contenders, or, are they totally hamstrung by pillowy reverb?

I'm also interested in the Dekany vs. Tatrai in Op.20.

The Medici in Op.64.
The Griller in 71/74.
The Weller in Op.33.
The Chilingirian in Op.71.
The Kocian in Op.20.

The list of interesting contenders/pretenders is OUTSTANDING! In every opus number, there are great one-offs that make me curious. Of course, many of them are outrageously priced on Amazon, making them practically useless (unless, of course, one of GMG's more philanthro...ah, nevermind!).

I suppose one could argue that any string quartet group that eventually ends up recording a Haydn SQ disc should be considered worthy, even the South Eastern Arkadian Community College String Quartet. Who knows? I simply can't AFFORD$$$ to believe that all Haydn albums are created equal. I want maximimity is my choices. I want it all-in-one. I want great sound, great modern/HIP-congealed playing (best of all worlds),... no excuses. And, sure, if one group can deliver on all cylinders at all times, then, so be it. I hasn't happened yet, according to everyone's collected wisdom, but, maybe the Auryn are working on that?

I just happened upon a cache of Haydn SQ reviews (sorry, can't remember... search Pellegrini Haydn), mainly between the Pellegrini and Hagen in Op. 20., but there were other great little tidbits. Me, I'm just trying to get as much info as possible before I plunk down any $$$ for anything these days.

I'm sure everyone here has already played the London Haydn Quartet's Op.20 in their heads, and knows if they will like it or not. What if the LHQ actually took a note of all their criticism, tweaked things a little bit, and came up the best Op.20 ever? That's the kind of stuff I'm looking for: people who respond to feedback, and correct previous errors (as opposed to players who start off great, and then sink under the weight of their own ego).

Honestly, I would have wished that someone out there would already have every group playing every SQ, and would go down the line, and make blow by blow comparisons for people like me who just don't have the trust fund or well paying job to do the dirty work.

I was thinking about starting a "Field Guide to Haydn SQ Recordings" where I would make a different post for each opus, with all the recordings of that opus, so that if you had a cd to add, you could just click the quote for that particular opus, and add the name of the group, and the label they're on. Is that a good idea? Have you actually read this far? :o :o :o

No one's mentioned the new Smithson recording on Dorian, with Op.9/17 pieces.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bulldog on October 29, 2009, 02:08:31 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on October 29, 2009, 11:32:58 AM
I've corresponded with a few others here who have also felt skittish about posting lately, and I'm just saying sorry if it's because of me. I dare say that it is because of me that this thread has ballooned to 28 pages, for good or ill, but hey, I can't think of any other "music+performance" topic, other than Haydn SQs, which can engender so many different responses (because there are so many worthwhile, one-off, performances?).

Oh, I think you give yourself way too much credit for the "balloon"; the credit belongs to Haydn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on October 29, 2009, 08:52:48 PM

That's what I meant to say :P!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on October 30, 2009, 04:01:39 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on October 29, 2009, 11:32:58 AM

On the one hand, I'm glad we're starting to get a glut of recordings; on the other, no one seems to be willing to buy EVERYTHING, and then let us poor ($$$) folks know which way to the mountain. Jens, of course, has done great service, but I'm sure even he can't get EVERYTHING (or,... can he?,hmmm ;D).
Tatrai in Op.20
The Kocian in Op.20.

Very true. Especially Hungaroton is not playing ball. But I do have the Kocian op.20 now--turns out a colleague of mine instigated the project in his time at Orfeo, when he was the Editor there. So here I am, with my Henle Urtext Studien-Edition (what a bargain, and nicely printed, too!), listening to Kocian, Buchberger, Kodaly, Pellegrini, Festetics, Hagen, and Q.Mosaiques. Like you, I'm not willing to get Aeolian and Angeles, at my own expense, just to compare. Fortunately that's not necessary, either... who'd get a complete box set of Haydn SQ4t just for op.20?!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on October 30, 2009, 03:49:25 PM

Sonic
Any progress with your listening sessions?
I have been comparing the following:

Buchberger/Brilliant complete set -> Mosaiques/Naive Op 20, 33, 64, 76, 77 -> Festetics/Arcana Vol 6, 7, 8, 9

Buchberger
These are my favorite, these are vibrant energetic performances that keep me fully engaged, feel like spontaneous
live performances which I love and admire, I can almost detect a gypsy flair to the sound.......others may call it rough around the edges, so if you seek a refined elegant performance look elsewere

Mosaiques
These are not my favorite, they have great sound quality but just never have enough energy for me, too relaxed polished overall.
I was often was bored with these, like beautiful shades of grey with no vibrant colors..........something is missing

Festetics
These I like much better than Mosaiques, compared to Buchberger a touch more restrained and perhaps more balanced but still
able to generate necessary dramatic contrasts and hold my interests, very deep rich string tones, a soulful sound. I will definitely be keeping these, compared to Buchberger quite an expensive collection however

In summary if I could keep only one I choose Buchberger........

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on October 30, 2009, 11:48:33 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 26, 2009, 05:32:40 PM
Some time ago I did read an interesting article by Jamie James (October 2, 1994, New York Times) (http://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/02/arts/recordings-view-he-d-rather-fight-than-use-keyboard-in-his-haydn-series.html) , which discuses the use of continuo, especially harpsichord, in Haydn symphonies. This issue was especially controversial when Christopher Hogwood and Roy Goodman assumed antagonic positions in his own cycles.

I recalled it today when I was listening to these superb Haydn symphonies with continuo:

:)

So you actually like the Freiburgers? ;D

Here's the Hurwitzer at it again, in his review of the new Jacob's Schøpfung:

"Finally, there's the Freiburg Baroque Orchestra, a group whose string playing is so ugly, so devoid of variety and stylishness, that it becomes a real issue of competence."

http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=12441 (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=12441)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 31, 2009, 03:59:16 AM

Quote from: erato on October 30, 2009, 11:48:33 PM
So you actually like the Freiburgers? ;D

Here's the Hurwitzer at it again, in his review of the new Jacob's Schøpfung:

"Finally, there's the Freiburg Baroque Orchestra, a group whose string playing is so ugly, so devoid of variety and stylishness, that it becomes a real issue of competence."

http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=12441 (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=12441)

Well, a minuet says more than thousand words: :D

http://www.divshare.com/flash/playlist?myId=9110892-366

I am not generally a supporter of the Freiburg Baroque Orchestra, especially because of its usual very fast tempi; but they are outstanding in these symphonies.

Anyway, this time I will be fair with "the Hurwitzer" because he loves these performances, too (another thing is the coherence of his different reviews):

10/10

Haydn's trilogy of "Morning, Noon, and Night" symphonies, composed as a sort of sequel to Vivaldi's The Four Seasons, lives or dies on the quality of its solo playing, and on that basis alone I have no hesitation in naming this recording the current reference edition in these works. The Freiburg Baroque Orchestra plays fabulously, with outstanding contributions from Karl Kaiser (flute), Petra Millejans (violin), and the two horn players. With respect to these latter instruments in particular, so often period players make a fetish out of producing stopped tones more appropriate to the kazoo--but listen to the rich, lovely sounds that principal horn Teunis van der Zwart makes at the first movement recapitulation of Symphony No. 6. There ought to be a Romantic quality to all fine horn playing, nowhere more so than in classical period works where the instrument's association with the hunt is never far from the surface.
But there's much more to enjoy than noble-toned horns. Here's one conductorless band that plans its performances on a scale larger than most standard orchestras manage. Even with relatively small forces they play with a big dynamic range -witness the opening "sunrise" of No. 6, or the La Tempesta finale of No. 8-, and no mean sense of drama--check out the operatic slow movement of No. 7, with its very vocally expressive opening instrumental recitative. Tempos are generally swift but always are chosen to give the players the room they need to phrase and characterize the music to maximum effect, and Harmonia Mundi affords the ensemble ideally balanced, warmly detailed sound. Sadly, recordings of this music come and go, but let's hope this one sticks around long enough for music lovers to discover just how wonderful it is. [4/27/2002]
--David Hurwitz, Classicstoday

P.S.: "Night symphony", Dave? ::)

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on October 31, 2009, 05:16:59 AM

Still working my way through Christine Schornsheim's complete sonata set......

Has anyone purchased her 2CD set of 8 concertos again using different keyboards throughout?
I can tell by the short samples I much prefer the forte piano versions compared to harpsicord or small organ

Also any comment on the 1CD Andreas Staier concerto performance.....

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Dp3JY%2BLzL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31V2uuiMRmL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on October 31, 2009, 09:06:25 AM

Quote from: Que on June 20, 2009, 01:50:29 AM
Got this reissue of the Staier/ Von der Goltz, a favourite (forte)pianist and a favourite conductor.

(http://cover6.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/30/1050630.jpg)

Impressions after a few spins. Wonderful performances: very lucid, elegant and sophisticated but nonetheless quite pointed and well articulated, with meticulously detailed and well thought-through phrasing by Staier who plays a copy after Walter, which sounds very good indeed. Very typical for Staier's general style IMO - this is a "thinker's" performance. Recording is spacious but not too resonant with a good focus on the fortepiano, matching the performances in transparency. I haven't heard the Brautigam other than in samples but I'd expect his performances with Mortensen to have more "umph" and to be more driven. Anybody cares to comment? :)

Anyway: this is warmly recommended! :)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on October 31, 2009, 03:35:09 PM

Ok great info Q........

almost a pointless exercise to ask if any Andreas Staier CD is less than excellent, if only he recorded in greater quantity ::)
I do already have the Brautigam/Bis concerto CD.......

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 31, 2009, 04:28:36 PM

Quote from: DarkAngel on October 31, 2009, 05:16:59 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Dp3JY%2BLzL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

This set is on the road from MDT... I hope it will arrive in ten days or so.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 01, 2009, 05:20:11 PM

Quote from: DarkAngel on October 30, 2009, 03:49:25 PM
Sonic
Any progress with your listening sessions?
I have been comparing the following:

Buchberger/Brilliant complete set -> Mosaiques/Naive Op 20, 33, 64, 76, 77 -> Festetics/Arcana Vol 6, 7, 8, 9..................

In summary if I could keep only one I choose Buchberger........

Hello DA - YES, I'm still going through the Buchberger Box at a slower pace - recently listened to Op. 54, 55, & 64 - my only 'comparison listening' was w/ the Lindsay set of Op. 55 - I enjoyed the Buchberger performances much more, just greater energy and enthusiasm in the playing; the Op. 64 recordings were just excellent (I do own the Kodaly in the same works, but did not even do a comparison - just knew that I'd like the Buch's better!).

Now, I have Quatuor Festetics coming 'in the mail' of some of these latter SQs, so may wait until their arrival, just so I can do some more comparison; so far, my 'bottom line' is that the Buchberger Box Set remains an excellent recommendation for a complete offering of these superb works - I just cannot understand some of the MAJOR objections to this set; of course, quibbles are always going to be there - Dave

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on November 01, 2009, 08:27:50 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on November 01, 2009, 05:20:11 PM
Hello DA - my only 'comparison listening' was w/ the Lindsay set of Op. 55 - I enjoyed the Buchberger performances much more, just greater energy and enthusiasm in the playing; - Dave

And I had the exact opposite reaction with the same compare. Go figure! :P Can I call you names now? ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on November 10, 2009, 07:16:20 AM

Hey, Gurn, I think I sort of get Haydn's Spaß. The last movement of No. 46, the symphony, was one bizarre ride ;D, not to mention the repeat of pseudo-ending which actually marked the true end.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on November 11, 2009, 04:30:35 AM

Quote from: opus106 on November 10, 2009, 07:16:20 AM
Hey, Gurn, I think I sort of get Haydn's Spaß. The last movement of No. 46, the symphony, was one bizarre ride ;D, not to mention the repeat of pseudo-ending which actually marked the true end.

Oh, and he does it again! Just when I thought I wanted to play that last movement of the 90th again, he informed me that he wasn't done with it yet.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 11, 2009, 04:45:19 AM

Quote from: opus106 on November 11, 2009, 04:30:35 AM
Oh, and he does it again! Just when I thought I wanted to play that last movement of the 90th again, he informed me that he wasn't done with it yet.

Yes, the false ending is one of many little tricks that Joe likes to play on us. Once you've reached the point in musical listening ability that you develop expectations, that is just where you come to appreciate his ability to defeat them. A very intelligent fellow, I'd have liked to know him. Somehow I can see him standing in the wings laughing at his own jokes and the cognoscenti falling for them. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on November 11, 2009, 04:52:23 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 11, 2009, 04:45:19 AM
Yes, the false ending is one of many little tricks that Joe likes to play on us. Once you've reached the point in musical listening ability that you develop expectations, that is just where you come to appreciate his ability to defeat them. A very intelligent fellow, I'd have liked to know him. Somehow I can see him standing in the wings laughing at his own jokes and the cognoscenti falling for them. :D

8)

I'm just glad that I didn't read about the symphony in advance or notice the track timing for the movement -- that would've totally spoilt it. ;D I hope that someday I'll understand what is so funny about the thing in D-flat major. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on November 13, 2009, 08:39:29 AM

ok, it's been 10 days!...

It's gotten to the point where I can't ignore Opp. 9/17 any longer, if only because they're all that's being discussed these days, ha! ::)

I've been doing some behind the scenes corresponding, and diligently reading the thread, and I finally found Jens' WETA reviews, and, predictably, we have some interesting choices ahead. First off, the players are, generally:

Aeolian

Tatrai

Kodaly

Angeles

Festetics

Buchberger

London HQ

Am I missing one? (I don't believe the Salomon recorded 9/17 (maybe Hyperion will stop with LHQ? (probably not, ha!)))

I am now one of those who thinks that I want to start my journey with 9/17 (never heard 'em, just snippets on YouTube) with a HIP set. They're just "old" enough for me that, well,... you don't want to hear my vanity! Anyhow, that pretty much narrows the field to Festetics, LHQ, or Buchberger.

Now, I know what I said about the BBs in Opp. 54/55 (listened again yesterday (without compare), and, ok, I still hear a lot of slurring of the super fast runs, and some other problems, but,...anyhow), but, I am certainlt willing to believe that they might hit 9/17 just fine (not everyone does the whole cycle well). Also, I am totally unfamiliar with these sets, so I may not be put off by any pre-judgments. And, of course, they are cheaper than even the Kodaly (whom I have heard are a little bland in these sets (or, just fine, as I've also heard)).

The Festetics have been noted to be quite leisurely and homey, and the LHQ have been noted (criticized?) to be quite daring in matters such as tempo (to the point many have balked). Both of these are priced about the same.

I get the feeling I would go for the BB simply for prices' sake. The LHQ is so controversial right now, I feel quite drawn, but I don't know if this is just hype. Let me reiterate that this computer doesn't do "fun stuff" like audio very well, so I'd have to wait to hear snippets for myself. I did just hear a bit of the Op.9/5, d minor, SQ, and had a V8 moment, so I know I'll like the music at least.

Personally, I don't know if this topic is already dead on the thread, but, if not, please let us continue. It's just that I think we have an equal number of votes between the contenders. Do the BBs really shine in 9/17? Are the LHQ too "too"? Are the Festetics too genial, or just right? Which bowl of pottage is it?

Ha,.. OR are ya gonna tell me I need all of em? Hahahaha.....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on November 13, 2009, 11:09:43 AM

Wouldn't it be more useful to post about recordings you know, rather than post these speculations about 'contenders' you are 'considering'? There's really virtually no info in a post like the above.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 13, 2009, 11:17:52 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on November 13, 2009, 08:39:29 AM
Now, I know what I said about the BBs in Opp. 54/55 (listened again yesterday (without compare), and, ok, I still hear a lot of slurring of the super fast runs, and some other problems, but,...anyhow), but, I am certainlt willing to believe that they might hit 9/17 just fine (not everyone does the whole cycle well). Also, I am totally unfamiliar with these sets, so I may not be put off by any pre-judgments. And, of course, they are cheaper than even the Kodaly (whom I have heard are a little bland in these sets (or, just fine, as I've also heard)).

The Festetics have been noted to be quite leisurely and homey, and the LHQ have been noted (criticized?) to be quite daring in matters such as tempo (to the point many have balked). Both of these are priced about the same.

I get the feeling I would go for the BB simply for prices' sake. The LHQ is so controversial right now, I feel quite drawn, but I don't know if this is just hype. Let me reiterate that this computer doesn't do "fun stuff" like audio very well, so I'd have to wait to hear snippets for myself. I did just hear a bit of the Op.9/5, d minor, SQ, and had a V8 moment, so I know I'll like the music at least.

snyprrr - LOL! ;D Sounds like you're again driving yourself NUTS w/ these 'micro analyzes' - sometimes seeing the 'forest through the trees' might be a better option, or take 'shrimp & grits' (one of my wife's favorite dishes) - there are many recipes and variations, some are better than others, but not always that different, and occasionally, one may prefer a little more heat, a hotter andouille sausage, etc. - ;D

I just finished listening to my 'newer & older' sets of these works about a week ago - quite difficult for me to pick ONE favorite group, among those sets that I own the most recordings, i.e. Buchberger, Q. Festetics, & Q. Mosaiques - I would suggest that the first two in that list would be a good start. BTW, I was just reading a review in the Nov/Dec issue of Fanfare by James North (quoted below 'in part' from ArkivMusic) - seems to be a Buchberger fan! :)

QuoteHAYDN Quartets: op. 33/1–6; op. 42 • Festetics Qrt (period instruments) • ARCANA 414 (2 CDs: 144:55)

A few years ago, the Festetics was one of my two favorite period-instrument ensembles for early-to-middle Haydn quartets (the Mosaïques was the other). It plays accurately, crisply, and in tune, with close respect for markings in the score, and it plays every repeat, including Menuets da capo. Its pitch (A = 421 Hz) would have seemed terribly low two decades ago but now feels just right. All these characteristics are reinforced by this new set, recorded in 2006 in Budapest. So what happened? Along came the Buchberger, on Brilliant Classics. It plays repeats when and if it chooses—seldom the second ones in sonata-form movements, and never in Menuets da capo. It is rather casual about score markings; staccatos are often elided. It plays period instruments at modern pitch. But it gives fresh, vital performances; its first violin and its cello are gorgeous, individual lines are always clear, and ensemble blend is ravishing.

In many of these quartets, the Buchberger makes the Festetics seem dry and lifeless. Case in point: the Presto finale of the B-Minor Quartet (op. 33/1) is played correctly and cleanly by the Festetics, and yet a sense of caution is in the air; at exactly the same tempo, the Buchberger's Presto blazes with brilliant excitement. The dry, clear Arcana recording allows every detail to be heard; the slightly more reverberant Brilliant Classics one may be less observant, but its warmth and sheen are more listener friendly. In the opening Allegro moderato of the C-Major Quartet (op. 33/3), the Festetics' reading begins to suggest a cutesy "Papa Haydn"—despite their period-practice credentials—whereas the Buchberger is strong and direct. Five measures before the close of the Andante of the D-Major (op. 33/6), the Festetics first violin plays a fancier, longer (and lovely) cadenza than that by the Buchberger, but the latter's cello holds a gorgeous pedal note throughout, while the Festetics plays unaccompanied. My Dover score shows a whole note—the cadenza comes in the middle of a measure—but it's reasonable to play the cadenza as a solo

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 13, 2009, 01:32:31 PM

Well, this could be in "Purchases Today", or in "Haydn Keyboard", but it isn't in either of them. It's here instead, and along with it a question for any of you about what you know/don't know, like/don't like about the clavichord.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41MJY2P17BL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Derek Adlam playing 3 sonatas, 2 variation sets and a capriccio on the clavichord. Included are one of my favorite sonatas (the b minor) and one of my favorite variations (the f minor "un piccolo divertimento').

Looking forward to its arrival. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on November 14, 2009, 10:06:28 AM

All my research is fiscally based! 8)

If, in the late '80s, Hyperion had used the Salomon to record Opp. 9 & 17, at $19.99 a pop for Hyperion in those days, we're looking at @$45 investment for the whole she-bang.

If the "bible" performance is only a few dollars more, ok, then maybe, but if said performance is OOP and $275 for a single disc on Amazon, well, not so much.

Right now I could get Buchberger 9 AND 17 for the price of LHQ 9 OR 17. By this logic, LHQ would have to be at leeeast 2-3 better than the BBs, haha!, in order for the LHQ to be competitive. Of course, if by some happenstance the LHQ was on Amazon for $4.99, and the BBs for $11.99, well, then, what are you going to do when astrophysics and monkey wreches start dictating your record collection?

It's just that I'd rather talk myself out of buying, rather than talk myself into buying. Anyone here who has ever had a shopping "problem" should understand. None of them HERE, though, huh? ;D

Of course, I hope we're all having a good time here. Everything that's happened on this particular thread has certainly enriched me all around this year. I can chart my own Haydn growth by this thread, and I enjoy asking about real one-offs (Dekany Op.20?), and then of course the whole HIP thing...

which brings me to that review Sonic posted. As I read, I saw that a lot of the things the reviewer liked, I might have had a problem with. He noted that the BBs do pretty much what they want to, whensoever they want to do it, and so forth, tuning up, and so on, as opposed to the Festetics, which the reviewer seems to characterize as a more, uh, traditionally HIP outfit (oh, that sounds funny!). The word reckless comes to mind, which, when you can have some performances, say, by the Kodaly, coming up very blaaaaand, then it could be refreshing to have a more devil may care interpretation. My impression is that the LHQ are the ones taking tons of risks/choices (based on all the ink here), along with the BBs (in a totally different way).

Everyone, so far, I believe, have characterized the Festetics as the "safest" choice: always reliable to deliver the goods the way that they do. But, because the BBs and the LHQ have just come along too, both with different ways of doing things from the QF, the playing field in this particular arena (9/17) seems to have particularly interesting HIP choices.

back to the review-

I think that's what I noticed about the BBs, was that they were kind of a hybrid outfit, sometimes sounding HIP, sometimes sounding modern. I didn't really like it in 54/55. but maybe in the early stuff it will take on a whole new light.

I can certainly appreciate that the BBs have "spunk." At least you know they'll do something different than the rest, and generally be a little more recommendable than the Kodaly, perhaps, overall.

(ha, "OKlahoma!" just started, haha)

anyway, I'll be getting the BBs here soon in 9 & 17. Can't wait to see how that will go (plan your vacations! :D)! oh, haha, you poor guys, hahaha...

btw- what about the menuet of 33/3? anyone? pretty rad, huh?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 14, 2009, 10:21:30 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on November 14, 2009, 10:06:28 AM
My impression is that the LHQ are the ones taking tons of risks/choices (based on all the ink here)...

The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters: Plate 43 of The Caprices (Los Caprichos), 1799
Francisco de Goya y Lucientes (Spanish, 1746–1828)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on November 14, 2009, 10:50:13 AM

Quote from: snyprrr link=topic=3866.msg370222#msg370222
The Festetics have been noted to be quite leisurely and homey, and the LHQ have been noted (criticized?) to be quite daring in matters such as tempo (to the point many have balked). Both of these are priced about the same.

Quote from: snyprrr on November 14, 2009, 10:06:28 AM
Everyone, so far, I believe, have characterized the Festetics as the "safest" choice: always reliable to deliver the goods the way that they do. But, because the BBs and the LHQ have just come along too, both with different ways of doing things from the QF, the playing field in this particular arena (9/17) seems to have particularly interesting HIP choices.

snyprrr, I'm really baffled by your summarry by "everyone's" comments on the Quatuor Festetics! :o
If I recall the comments of those here who know their Haydn cycle best: Gurn, Antoine and myself, "homey" and "safe" is not even close to reality. I assume you must have misread or confused some of the comments. For instance I did say that their tempi are at times "leisurely" but that doesn't mean their playing/ interpretation is.

Might I suggest listening to the QF? ::)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 14, 2009, 12:02:20 PM

Quote from: Que on November 14, 2009, 10:50:13 AM
snyprrr, I'm really baffled by your summarry by "everyone's" comments on the Quatuor Festetics! :o
If I recall the comments of those here who know their Haydn cycle best: Gurn, Antoine and myself, "homey" and "safe" is not even close to reality. I assume you must have misread or confused some of the comments. For instance I did say that their tempi are at times "leisurely" but that doesn't mean their playing/ interpretation is.

Might I suggest listening to the QF? ::)

Q

Actually, if one were to infer an adjective from MY comments, it would be "rollicking" rather than any of those others. And just because one can count on them to be good, that doesn't make them 'safe' in the sense that I derive from Snipper's context. Safe is the Kodaly. Genial and cheerful do not equal safe, they equal genial and cheerful. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Staier, Andreas - Andante & 2 variations in F minor, H.XVII:6

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 14, 2009, 12:15:41 PM

Or probably snyprrr is just trying to pick a quarrel... I mean to get a good debate on opus 9 & 17. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 14, 2009, 12:30:09 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 14, 2009, 12:15:41 PM
Or probably snyprrr is just trying to pick a quarrel... I mean to get a good debate on opus 9 & 17. ;)

True enough. She can be that way sometimes. :)

But anyway, what's to debate? 12 quartets composed within a year of each other, and intended for no audience whatsoever with the exception of Haydn and 3 friends who were sitting down and playing them for pleasure. Anyone who wants to read more into them than that is really just exercising their imagination. I'm not really sure there is a 'right way' to play them, although there is no doubt that there is a wrong way... :D

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Staier, Andreas - III. Tempo di Menuetto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on November 14, 2009, 10:44:45 PM

No, I'm not arguing or picking fights :D.

I think what i realized was that for all the SQ writing going on in the late 1860s, and going up to about, say, 1776, much of it still was a bit old fashioned sounding (Richter, Albrechtsberger, Gossec). Haydn Op.33 (1781) was written in a "brand new style".

What snippet I heard, plus Op.20, which I have enjoyed in a completely different way than the later, "High Classical" SQs, plus the "old fashioned" SQs of Richter, lead me to believe that Opp. 9/17 is where I've wanted to be all along? Well, perhaps.

There can obviously be no more intimate works than these. Perhaps I overlooked them earlier, but I think since I acquired the Richter and the Gossec, and other "early" SQs (1768-72/74), 9/17 have taken greater importance to me. There just aren't that many SQs in the "middle" style, are there?... that middle style that many around here like (at least not recorded).

Forgive my blathering. Hopefully I'll have a recording by next week! I know it is my duty to buy cds,... and I have been slackin' lately, I'm sorry. Maybe if Obama sent me a happy check,...no,...stop snyprrr, stop...

And when I said "safe" for Festetics I meant safe as in "safe bet", like it's the standard. The Kodaly, on the other hand, are "safe" in the other way, like Gurn meant. I meant that, whatever you all have said about them, no one has ever really said anything bad about them, right? I haaave heard bad (re: safe) things from some Kodaly. That's the difference, to me. Rollicking works, I can understand that.

And I understand the problems in using words such as "everyone", but I haven't heard anyone NOT like the Festetics at least in a general way, have I?

Either way, research demands that I get something soon, and cheap, so, Buchberger it is.

Que, I'm saving the best for last, no? 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on November 14, 2009, 10:46:31 PM

When this thread reaches 33 pages, can we have a pizza party, huh huh???

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on November 14, 2009, 11:37:16 PM

Apponyi Quartet, Op 33

I highly recommend this CD -- it has just been re-released and is available from amazon.de (and maybe elsewhere now)

The playing is intense. It's not at all flat. In Opus 33/1 -- which is quite difficult music I think -- the sound is sometimes layered in a striking way, with changes in dynamics, sometimes hushed, sometimes raucous.

Sometimes they play faster than you may be used to. But they are never inelegant to my ears, and they are often witty -- in the presto finale to 33/2, for example.

The Haydn they play is not a loveable anodyne papa -- he's that slightly mad maverick.

Take The Bird (33/3) as an example. Just contrast the flat and relaxed interpretations of traditional ensembles Sidney Griller's group with the Apponyis.

The Grillers make a more even and singing and richer sound. But they have so much less dynamic variation; they find so much less in the music in terms of contrasts and echoes. They illustrate so much less well how one instrument takes up and reflects the ideas of another voice.

Some reviewer said that this is quartet playing for those who like Fey's symphonies. That's not quite right -- they are much more musical than Fey, much more amusing and witty, much less flat.

The Apponyis have only made this CD -- they are a scratch ensemble made from players in the Freiburg Baroque Orchestra.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on November 15, 2009, 12:02:35 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on November 14, 2009, 11:37:16 PM
Some reviewer said that this is quartet playing for those who like Fey's symphonies. That's not quite right -- they are much more musical than Fey, much more amusing and witty, much less flat.

The Apponyis have only made this CD -- they are a scratch ensemble made from players in the Freiburg Baroque Orchestra.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, this quartet comes from Fey's orchestra, right?

Are we talking gut strings and emphasized first beats?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Todd on November 15, 2009, 07:20:44 AM

I've worked through another nine discs of the Davies cycle, and things have improved a bit. For some reason, the Sturm und Drang symphonies take up six discs and comprise works ranging from the 26th up to the 58th, though they're not all included. The smooth playing continues, and the slow movements are often quite slow. Perhaps even too slow in a few cases. I will admit that in the Sturm und Drang proper (44-49), there's often not enough oomph. But that's what other recordings are for, like Maksymiuk's fine, overlooked recording. Still, the new bog box is shaping up to be a rather nice purchase.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 15, 2009, 08:20:42 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 13, 2009, 01:32:31 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41MJY2P17BL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Looking forward to its arrival. :)

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 09, 2009, 07:50:24 PM
Haydn – Klavierstücke (Complete)

CD 3
MISCELLANEOUS KEYBOARD WORKS
Fantasy in C major Hob XVII/4
Adagio in F major Hob XVII/9 Published in 1786 as 'Zehn kleine Klavierstücke' No. 7
Capriccio in G major Hob XVII/1 'Acht Sauschneider müssen sein'
Sonata in D major Hob XVII/D1
Sonata in F major Hob XVII/a:1 for four hands 'Il maestro e scolare'(*)
Eighteen Menuets and Aria Hob IX/20 and Hob XVII/F1

Bart van Oort
Fortepiano after Walter (ca. 1795) by Chris Maene (Ruiselede, 2000)
(*) with Sylvia Berry, fortepiano
Brilliant Classics

Acht Sauschneider müssen sein
Eight good men, it takes no more, takes no more

The use of a child's counting song, Acht Sauschneider müassn seyn, gave Haydn an opportunity to exercise his down-to-earth sense of humour, for it begins:

Acht Sauschneider müassn sein, müassn sein, wenns an Saubärn wulln schneidn.
Zwoa vorn und zwoa hintn,
zwoa holtn, uana bintn
und uana schneidt drein, schneidt drein,
iahna achti müassn sein.

Siebn Sauschneider müassn sein, müassn sein,
wenns an Saubärn wulln schneidn...... und so weiter....

Eight good men, it takes no more, takes no more,
Then you can castrate a boar.
Two in front, two behind,
Two to hold, one to bind,
Also, one to do the chore, do the chore.
Eight good men, it takes no more.

Seven good men, it takes no more, takes no more,
etc, etc. ...

;D

I have been considering that Adlam's recording for a while; but I have only got his Bach also played on clavichord... It would be great to have your report about it in the future, Gurn.

Probably you know this REVIEW (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2003/Oct03/haydnkey.htm) on Musicweb International; if not, it is very interesting because it includes an Adlam's response.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 15, 2009, 08:29:24 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 15, 2009, 08:20:42 AM
;D

I have been considering that Adlam's recording for a while; but I have only got his Bach also played on clavichord... It would be great to have your report about it in the future, Gurn.

Probably you know this REVIEW (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2003/Oct03/haydnkey.htm) on Musicweb International; if not, it is very interesting because it includes an Adlam's response.

:)

Antoine,
I knew a bit about it being based on a folk song, but no details. So that's interesting. The song itself is amusing to me, since I used to own and operate a pig farm (surprise!) and have castrated many hundreds of boars.

8 good men would surely be nice,
although it was usually just me and my wife
:D

I'll read that review. I'm sure I haven't done, since I never look for one, but rely on kind souls such as yourself to link me... ;)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Das neue Orchester \ Spering - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 4th mvmt - Finale: Presto - Allegro assai

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 15, 2009, 08:44:02 AM

What a funny coincidence, Gurn! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 15, 2009, 10:30:17 AM

Somebody knows these recordings?

These SAMPLES (http://www.emusic.com/album/Camerata-Berolinensis-HAYDN-Joseph-Divertimenti-for-string-trio-Vol-1-MP3-Download/11620769.html) look promising.

Mysterious label: MMB - Musikmanufaktur Berlin.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 15, 2009, 11:56:01 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 15, 2009, 10:30:17 AM
Somebody knows these recordings?

These SAMPLES (http://www.emusic.com/album/Camerata-Berolinensis-HAYDN-Joseph-Divertimenti-for-string-trio-Vol-1-MP3-Download/11620769.html) look promising.

Mysterious label: MMB - Musikmanufaktur Berlin.

:)

I have both of them. They are wonderful. Highly recommended. I even wrote to the manufacturer to enquire whether the remainder of the cycle would be recorded. Haven't heard back yet... :-\

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Andreas Staier - Hob 16 48 Sonata in C for Fortepiano 1st mvmt - Andante con expressione

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 15, 2009, 05:18:56 PM

Thanks, Gurn. I need to get those discs!

Apparently, the project is dead because the recordings are from 2003 (JPC information).

It is a shame because these string trios are a neglected part of Haydn output, probably because they are youthful works and they didn't have continuity during his life. I think -although I am probably wrong- it would be necessary four CDs more to complete the project (30 or 31 string trios?).

Any additional recommendation on this Hob. V?

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 15, 2009, 05:40:09 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 15, 2009, 05:18:56 PM
Thanks, Gurn. I need to get those discs!

Apparently, the project is dead because the recordings are from 2003 (JPC information).

It is a shame because these string trios are a neglected part of Haydn output, probably because they are youthful works and they didn't have continuity during his life. I think -although I am probably wrong- it would be necessary four CDs more to complete the project (30 or 31 string trios?).

Any additional recommendation on this Hob. V?

:)

Antoine,
Well, they were only released in the USA in 2006 & 2008 respectively. I was hoping for the best there. Which would be that Brilliant do their Volume 2 and choose these (completed) for the string trios. What a dreamer. :D

Actually, they are really not that early, some of these stretch out to 1767, which is quite late since he had a dozen of so string quartets under his belt long before then, for example. David Wyn Jones (in the Oxford Companion) speculates, quite reasonably, that he quit writing them because of time considerations, since he was now compelled to do baryton trios en masse and just didn't have time for string trios any more. Some of them, like #10 in F from 1768 are quite complex little works, and very enjoyable. Depressing is what it is... :'(

Anyway, there is a set in 6 disks by the Vienna Philharmonia Trio on Camerata:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wN4HVA60L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) but they are on modern instruments and also rather difficult to get your hands on. They were selling for $20+/disk and that made the 6 disks rather expensive, so I decided to wait and see if they would come out in a box set for a small saving. And they didn't, and now are mainly OOP, so... :-\

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Andreas Staier - Hob 16 34 Sonata in e for Fortepiano 1st mvmt - Presto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 15, 2009, 05:58:51 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 15, 2009, 05:40:09 PM
Antoine,
Well, they were only released in the USA in 2006 & 2008 respectively...

Thanks, Gurn, your information will be very useful to me. There is a hole in my Haydn discography -I don't know why, but I HATE the word "collection"- and I am trying to fix it now.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 15, 2009, 06:06:06 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 15, 2009, 05:58:51 PM
Thanks, Gurn, your information will be very useful to me. There is a hole in my Haydn discography -I don't know why, but I heat the word "collection"- and I am trying to fix it now.

:)

Well, the reasons for so few recordings of this music escape me. Back in the early Haydn era on LP's, there was a spate of 'String Trios' released, but they turn out to be baryton trios played on violin, viola and cello. Haydn's real string trios are, of course, on 2 violins and cello. What is really surprising to me is that, to date, neither Naxos nor Brilliant have pursued these, with the exception of one string trio on Naxos (PI too!) that is on a disk of Hob XIV divertimenti for keyboard and strings. It happens to be one that is included on these Camerata Berolinensis disks though... :-\

Well, let me know what you find. Your sources are seemingly better than mine, you may turn up something that I haven't even heard about. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Andreas Staier - Hob 16 33 Sonata in D for Fortepiano 2nd mvmt - Adagio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 15, 2009, 06:21:35 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 15, 2009, 06:06:06 PM
Well, the reasons for so few recordings of this music escape me. Back in the early Haydn era on LP's, there was a spate of 'String Trios' released, but they turn out to be baryton trios played on violin, viola and cello. Haydn's real string trios are, of course, on 2 violins and cello. What is really surprising to me is that, to date, neither Naxos nor Brilliant have pursued these, with the exception of one string trio on Naxos (PI too!) that is on a disk of Hob XIV divertimenti for keyboard and strings. It happens to be one that is included on these Camerata Berolinensis disks though... :-\

Well, let me know what you find. Your sources are seemingly better than mine, you may turn up something that I haven't even heard about. :)

Really weird indeed.

I also have that Naxos disc and it is excellent; but it includes -as you say- just one string trio :( (although all the remaining performances are charming).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 15, 2009, 06:26:53 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 15, 2009, 06:21:35 PM
Really weird indeed.

I also have that Naxos disc and it is excellent; but it includes -as you say- just one string trio :( (although all the remaining performances are charming).

:) Yes, I like that disk too. Despite the fact that it was poorly reviewed on Amazon. It was one of those things where the reviewer plainly didn't like PI performance anyway, and the fact that the music was mainly fairly simple and easy to play (all galant, actually) compelled him to dislike it. ::) But that's the sum total that I can find. Well, hope springs eternal... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on November 16, 2009, 04:37:43 AM

Man, I'm pretty amazed at the playing in this set!

(http://www.naxos.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/E8875.jpg)

My other favorite HIP quartet is the Solomon...especially their Haydn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 16, 2009, 04:54:31 AM

Quote from: Leo K on November 16, 2009, 04:37:43 AM
Man, I'm pretty amazed at the playing in this set!

(http://www.naxos.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/E8875.jpg)

My other favorite HIP quartet is the Solomon...especially their Haydn.

Leo,
Yes, precision is a hallmark of the QM. One thing you never hear from them is anything resembling sloppy play!

I have the Salomons in some Mozart and like them a lot, but finding them playing Haydn has been a bit more of a challenge. I'll have to pursue that a bit harder; you aren't the first to mention how good they are. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on November 17, 2009, 07:27:39 PM

If I didn't have to go to work I would have won that sucker! >:(

ok,... who got it?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on November 20, 2009, 07:51:40 AM

Quote from: Herman on November 15, 2009, 12:02:35 AM
So, correct me if I'm wrong, this quartet comes from Fey's orchestra, right?

Fey has recorded with a Heidelberg orchestra -- the quartet are players in a Freiberg orchestra.

The comparison with Fey seems a complete red herring to me -- except that both are interested in authentic performance practice. Nevertheless, the suggestion that these quartets would appeal to someone who likes Fey's Haydn was made by one of rmcr's experts I think.

Quote from: Herman on November 15, 2009, 12:02:35 AM

Are we talking gut strings and emphasized first beats?

Well . . . there's rather more to it than that.

But at the end of the day, when all's said and done, to cut a long story short -- yes.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 21, 2009, 06:38:37 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 21, 2009, 06:16:19 AM
Joseph Haydn - Concertos
La Divina Armonia
Stefano Barneschi, violin
Lorenzo Ghielmi, organ
Pasacaille, 2008

Delightfully clear and well-balanced performances; this disc is a winner from the very first notes... And the small ensemble added to the soloists is not the last reason for this: six violins, viola, violoncello and double-bass.

It includes: Concerto for organ in D major, Hob.XVIII:2; Concerto for violin in G major Hob. VIIa:4; Concerto for violin and organ in F major, Hob. XVIII:6; Concerto for organ in C major, Hob.XVII:10.

http://www.youtube.com/v/OmFaET06b4Y

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 21, 2009, 07:40:00 AM

That looks and sounds quite interesting, Antoine. There is a little competition in these works right now, but this one might just rise to the top for me. Now, if I can find a copy... :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Jean-Claude Pennetier - Jadin Op 4 #1 Sonata in Bb for Keyboard 1st mvmt - Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sean on November 21, 2009, 07:54:29 AM

Presently borrowing the Angeles quartet complete recording- it's obviously an exceptional group, very well blended producing transparent texture, clearly delineated and refined in the best Elysian sense; slightly romanticized with some marginally slower tempos but the recording is demonstration class and emphasizes the sense of space they bring. The opening of the Lark quartet is often one indication of what a group can do and though they don't find the most sophisticated balance between spontaneity and poise this is obviously a highly recommendable set.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sean on November 21, 2009, 07:56:40 AM

By the way I don't rate any of this music that highly, at least nowhere near the Mozart or Beethoven. Interesting though that the earlier works are equally inspired, if structurally more forumlaic.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 21, 2009, 08:16:51 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 21, 2009, 07:40:00 AM
Now, if I can find a copy... :)

PRESTO CLASSICAL (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/search.php?searchString=ghielmi+passacaille) and MDT (http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//PAS953.htm) are fine options.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 21, 2009, 08:55:31 AM

By mistake the artwork of Passacaille identifies the keyboard concertos under the "Hob. XVII".

In the same order from MDT, I included the Schornscheim's new double-CD (Capriccio) with eight Haydn's keyboard concertos on organ, harpsichord & fortepiano. There it is not included the Hob. XVIII:6 (really for violin & organ/harpsichord) and the Hob. XVIII:2 is played on harpsichord (while Ghielmi plays this one on organ). In short, just the Hob. XVIII:10 is repeated. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on November 21, 2009, 09:36:58 AM

Quote from: Sean on November 21, 2009, 07:54:29 AM
Presently borrowing the Angeles quartet complete recording- it's obviously an exceptional group, very well blended producing transparent texture, clearly delineated and refined in the best Elysian sense; slightly romanticized with some marginally slower tempos but the recording is demonstration class and emphasizes the sense of space they bring. The opening of the Lark quartet is often one indication of what a group can do and though they don't find the most sophisticated balance between spontaneity and poise this is obviously a highly recommendable set.

I heard the recording was very reverb-y and tended to dampen the enjoyment of this set? The sound is the same throughout the set?

Compared to Kodaly? Any particulars stand out?,... forgive me, but if you're in the mood, we could always use an in depth paragraph or two on the Angeles. They seem to be taken for granted (and never mentioned). I haven't heard much about their playing, since the reverberant sound gets all the ink. They say the band is just far enough away from the mics where attack suffers.

Anyhow, glad someone brought up this dark horse. Now, if we can only get someone who has the Aeolian set... :-*

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on November 21, 2009, 09:43:59 AM

btw- the whole 9/17 thing has got me in a tizzy. After re-reading Jens' reviews, I just can't bring myself to go with the Buchberger (price notwithstanding). I suppose I will have to go with the Festetics (not that more $$$ anyhow). Sorry if I sound like a poof here, but it's just too expensive to buy all three or four sets. I'm just trying to get as much info before purchase as I can.

No one has mentioned the Tatrai in 9/17. Are they competitive here?

So, instead I got the original 1993 Auryn Op.71 and the Endellion Op.74. Can't wait.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sean on November 21, 2009, 10:29:39 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on November 21, 2009, 09:36:58 AM
I heard the recording was very reverb-y and tended to dampen the enjoyment of this set? The sound is the same throughout the set?

Compared to Kodaly? Any particulars stand out?,... forgive me, but if you're in the mood, we could always use an in depth paragraph or two on the Angeles. They seem to be taken for granted (and never mentioned). I haven't heard much about their playing, since the reverberant sound gets all the ink. They say the band is just far enough away from the mics where attack suffers.

Anyhow, glad someone brought up this dark horse. Now, if we can only get someone who has the Aeolian set... :-*

Hi snyprrr, actually I've only borrowed it from the library here for Nos.7-10 the four op.2, these being the only ones I wasn't familiar with; however I'm going to play their op.76 through in a few days so I guess I can say more then. The Angeles are satisfying to listen to for the ravishing if always slightly manufactured Haydn chordal writing and ways of building themes- very cleansing, and I don't find the sound's richness a problem, particularly as I'm more on the romantic side of the arguments anyway. As I say I'm no great Haydn fan really although I know most of his important works and never enthused over different quartet recordings as some of the more soulless intelligensia do: one of the biggest ironies in art is Haydn's full life and Mozart's half life.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sean on November 21, 2009, 10:33:44 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 04, 2009, 10:47:24 AM
I don't have that concerto on period instruments. :-\

Odd that this piece should be mentioned, I've just found an old recording and exploring the work for the first time.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on November 21, 2009, 11:21:56 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on November 21, 2009, 09:43:59 AM
btw- the whole 9/17 thing has got me in a tizzy. After re-reading Jens' reviews, I just can't bring myself to go with the Buchberger (price notwithstanding). I suppose I will have to go with the Festetics (not that more $$$ anyhow). Sorry if I sound like a poof here, but it's just too expensive to buy all three or four sets. I'm just trying to get as much info before purchase as I can.

No one has mentioned the Tatrai in 9/17. Are they competitive here?

The more distance I get from having reviewed those, the closer I'm moving toward the London Haydn Quartet. I'm currently under the influence of op.20, of course, and the Festetics have a way of being ghastly that's quite astonishing. My classical-music-neophyte friend on the sofa, whom I played the 8 different versions of the various op.20 quartets instinctively wrinkled her nose, every time she heard as much as the entrance of the Festetics. And that's without knowing who or what they are or being told anything that might have biased her against them. And it's not a matter of pitch. It's a matter of intonation and precision, both of which are being stretched to the very limits of what can still be called 'authentic' and what should be called 'wrong note'. What a relief to hear the Quatuor Mosaique, compared to them. It might not be so bad if the Festetics were quick and the sourness didn't last so long. But they're positively wallowing in their wayward ways. The Q.Mos. is a good bit fleeter; the Buchberger's of course the snappiest. And in op.20 the Buchberger make amends for whatever wasn't so hot in opp.1,3,9 and 17.

More in December.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 21, 2009, 12:08:20 PM

Quote from: jlaurson on November 21, 2009, 11:21:56 AM
The more distance I get from having reviewed those, the closer I'm moving toward the London Haydn Quartet. I'm currently under the influence of op.20, of course, and the Festetics have a way of being ghastly that's quite astonishing. My classical-music-neophyte friend on the sofa, whom I played the 8 different versions of the various op.20 quartets instinctively wrinkled her nose, every time she heard as much as the entrance of the Festetics. And that's without knowing who or what they are or being told anything that might have biased her against them. And it's not a matter of pitch. It's a matter of intonation and precision, both of which are being stretched to the very limits of what can still be called 'authentic' and what should be called 'wrong note'. What a relief to hear the Quatuor Mosaique, compared to them. It might not be so bad if the Festetics were quick and the sourness didn't last so long. But they're positively wallowing in their wayward ways. The Q.Mos. is a good bit fleeter; the Buchberger's of course the snappiest. And in op.20 the Buchberger make amends for whatever wasn't so hot in opp.1,3,9 and 17.

More in December.

Well, sometime ago I did a similar test, but with the Op. 9... My neophyte-classical-friend (although interested in other kind of music) preferred BY FAR the Festetics over The London Haydn Quartet (boring, dull, he said).

Anyway, to be a neophyte is not a presumption of good taste.

Finally, I have observed if you are accustomed to (or you prefer) the sound of modern instruments or big modern orchestras, usually you will accept more easily the HIP sound of the Mosaïques, or even the LHQ, over the Festetics.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on November 21, 2009, 12:34:40 PM

Quote from: jlaurson on November 21, 2009, 11:21:56 AM
(...) and the Festetics have a way of being ghastly that's quite astonishing. (...) And it's not a matter of pitch. It's a matter of intonation and precision, both of which are being stretched to the very limits of what can still be called 'authentic' and what should be called 'wrong note'. What a relief to hear the Quatuor Mosaique, compared to them. It might not be so bad if the Festetics were quick and the sourness didn't last so long. But they're positively wallowing in their wayward ways. (...)

Sofar of the Festetics being an "safe bet" generally agreed upon! ;D snyprrr! 8)

Other than that: intriguing comments - seems that all the points I like about the QF are the same you particularly dislike. Though I do not hear abundant technical flaws, as you seem to suggest there are.

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 21, 2009, 02:30:09 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 21, 2009, 12:08:20 PM

Finally, I have observed if you are accustomed to (or you prefer) the sound of modern instruments or big modern orchestras, usually you will accept more easily the HIP sound of the Mosaïques, or even the LHQ, over the Festetics.

Hmmm, sums it up quite nicely. I long ago put Jens (and no offense intended, merely an observation) on the list of people who just love HIP, yet cringe whenever they hear a real HIP performance. Without fail, their favorite PI performances are the ones that sound the most like modern instrument performances and thus don't stretch the boundaries of their comfort zones. One thing for sure, he isn't the Lone Ranger (despite liking Rossini ;D )

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Jean-Claude Pennetier - Jadin Op 4 #2 Sonata in f# for Keyboard 3rd mvmt - Finale: Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on November 21, 2009, 03:20:37 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 21, 2009, 02:30:09 PM
Hmmm, sums it up quite nicely. I long ago put Jens (and no offense intended, merely an observation) on the list of people who just love HIP, yet cringe whenever they hear a real HIP performance.

Yes, quite right. I don't listen to HIP for them to replicate what was bad about music making in those days. ;)

If shitty intonation is part of true authenticity, then I sh... shall care not for that part of 'authenticity'. But then, I don't think that 'authenticity' really exists. Different approximations, perhaps.

Of course the Mosaique's attraction lies in some good measure in the fact that they have so mastered their instruments and the technique of playing them, that you can't tell by way of accuracy that they play in a different style. You actually have to listen to what they make of the music. But that doesn't make them the Tokyo Quartet with ancient bows.

You make it sound like in the warfare that is HIP music making, the Mosaique are playing laser tag, while the Festetics battle it out in the trenches, a cloud of mustard gas just hanging above them. It's a leading suggestions, I reckon... but if it were true, I'd probably go with laser tag, because I can't have Haydn make my eyes tear in agony. ;D

And who knows... maybe op.20 is a particular low for the Festetics.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on November 21, 2009, 10:47:25 PM

??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???

duck and cover...

cheeze! ;D

btw- I'm utterly delighted! :-*

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on November 22, 2009, 12:36:42 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on November 21, 2009, 10:47:25 PM

cheeze! ;D

btw- I'm utterly delighted! :-*

I'm eagerly awaiting your opinion on the matter. 8)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on November 22, 2009, 02:07:26 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on November 21, 2009, 09:36:58 AM
I heard the recording was very reverb-y and tended to dampen the enjoyment of this set? The sound is the same throughout the set?

A delicious turn of phrase. "I heard the recording..." however then it turns out you only heard about the recording.

And so the meta-chatter continues.

And no, I'm not saying you should have every single recording.

I'm saying it's not very useful to build entire posts, if not threads upon hearsay, especially if it's badly digested hearsay.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sean on November 22, 2009, 11:10:53 AM

snyp, re the Angeles set you're right about the bathroomy acoustic, particularly affecting the cello but I don't find it a distraction and this group have a real grasp of the different styles of each movement- I'm presently listening to #75 (why do people still bother with 'op.76/1?') and though at times they make it sound like it's a lost late Beethoven quartet there's plenty of enthusiasm for the idiom in question and the playing exudes high classical confidence.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: MN Dave on November 22, 2009, 11:17:38 AM

I like a touch of resonance. Is that bad?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on November 23, 2009, 08:38:42 AM

Quote from: Que on November 22, 2009, 12:36:42 AM
I'm eagerly awaiting your opinion on the matter. 8)

Q

I'm still re-grouping on Monday!!! ... shellshocked I tell ya!

This whole thing sent me into a buying frenzy over the weekend. I'm currently in a seven day treatment center.

ahhhh,... 9/17, 9/17, 9/17, tick, tock, tick, tock, gagagaga... (lots of drooling) :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on November 23, 2009, 08:40:39 AM

Plus, I made a very interesting purchase.

Gotta go to work...

MORE!!!... SHOCKING HEADLINES!!!... LATER!!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on November 23, 2009, 08:44:40 AM

Quote from: MN Dave on November 22, 2009, 11:17:38 AM
I like a touch of resonance. Is that bad?

Dave + Haydn??? Hmmm ;)

Dave, you know when the mics are placed just far enough back to where the reverb effects the attack of the instrument,... the "swamping" effect. You caaaaan still have canyons of reverb, AND have crisp attack. Apparently, the Angeles don't have it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on November 23, 2009, 09:17:26 AM

Quote from: MN Dave on November 22, 2009, 11:17:38 AM
I like a touch of resonance. Is that bad?

Need to find a version where the violins, viola and cello have WahWah sticks attached to them like electric guitars! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on November 23, 2009, 08:36:46 PM

Ina Gadda da... Lobkowitz??? :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on November 23, 2009, 09:26:57 PM

There's just so much going on on this thread, it's hard to keep up! Whilst eagerly anticipation another 9/17 salvo, I got sidetracked into shoring up my Opp.71-76 hole.

Today the Auryn's original 1993 recording of Op.71 (Tacet) arrived. This cd has a bit of a reputation as being an exceptional 71, a) for the unique sound of the group, b) for the audiophile recording.

I only heard Op.71 for the first time earlier this year (Amadeus), and you can read my reactions, that this was my least favorite, or, most shoulder shrugging set, for me. I do remember thinking the Amadeus did an exceptional job in this set; plus, their gutsy, woodsy, folksy, yet serious tone brought much pleasure.

I know the Auryn have a completely different type of sound, and, as I began to listen, I was greeted with a very perfect sounding ensemble, very much like the ABQ with four slightly more subjective players. The recorded sound, also, grabbed me from the instant, being very unique sounding to my ears (the mic placement has this "hue" that's very strikingly appealing, which then just sounds normal as the ear adjusts). I think I was a bit put off by the sheer difference of sound, both playing and recorded, of this cd until I realized it was just too perfect. I noticed that the Auryn's reputation for being "just so" really zeros your ear in on their choices, and as much as you want to critic something, you can't. This is one of those "silence criticism" type records, though, of course, there's no wood. This is a very silky smooth, perfect sounding record that just sounds like delicate marble sculpture, cold yet warm, with a very objective presentation, yet a very subjective jollity from the band that never ever goes over the top or under the bottom, but just simply, maddeningly, plays every note perfectlly poised and relaxed at the same time. Ha, in other words, I like the Amadeus/Lindsay "wood" approach, but I also like the Auryn's "marble" sound (actually, they might even be a little more refined sounding than the ABQ; their ultra refined sound does kind of draw attention to itself, but in a good way, I think).

Ha, however, the music of Op.71 still struck my ears as one of the weaker sets in the canon, but the more I listen to the Auryn's heavenly playing (third time around now) the more I hear that I like (duh, haha!!!). No.1 starts out with a somewhat humorous Mozartean melody that also reminds me of Dittersdorf's "Hello Muddah" variations, and I don't know if it's the playing, but I definitely hear some more Mozart here than in say 54/55; here, that spirit of Viennese limpidity hangs like garlands around these pieces. I've been trying to listen to them as public pieces, but I just don't get how they're supposed to be different. I know about the intros, and I do hear perhaps certain "symphonic" things, though that could also be the combination of playing and recording.

Though I find much of this set as elusive to follow as Op.50, I have noticed a special quality in the slow mvmts. All three are very deeply felt, as I hear them, though, as I'm listening to the andante con moto of No.3, I would say that they are not really emotional at the core, but perhaps experimental; here also is where I hear a lot of that Mozart slow mvmt. type influence, no?

Well, I know I'm not rhapsodizin' too eloquently here, but i'm just surprised by this recording. I do kind of miss that woodsy edge of the Lindsays/Amadeus, and will obviously (and deliciously, haha) have to find an alternative version, but I'm really sold on the Auryn's "Greek gods on Olympus" classical purity. They make you think you're listening to liquid gold! Yes, a very Viennese, ABQ sounding group, to be sure, but with a definite profile of their own.

And I just ordered the Auryn's brand new Op.76 (only $15!!!), which leads me to...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2009, 04:39:08 AM

One of the founders of musicology as a modern science, and the man who made Haydn the name today that it should have always been, but sadly wasn't. All Haydnites should be glad to have had him. :'( (obit courtesy of The Guardian)

• Howard Chandler Robbins Landon,
Musicologist, born 6 March 1926; died 20 November 2009

Few musicologists achieve true celebrity outside their specialist field. But the name of HC Robbins Landon, who has died at the age of 83, was known by many thousands of people beyond the scholarly community. While his reputation was founded on his trailblazing research into Joseph Haydn, which helped to establish the composer's works – largely unknown as late as the 1950s – in the canon, it was his series of books on Mozart, aimed at a wider public and selling in huge numbers in many languages, that brought him global renown.

It is no exaggeration to call him a titan, for Robbie, as he was universally known, was a giant in both physical and intellectual terms. And yet his infectious enthusiasm for the subject under discussion, coupled with an encyclopedic memory and almost recklessly fluent delivery, allowed him to engage lay audiences in a way that few scholars are able.

Born in Boston and educated at Swarthmore College, Pennsylvania, Landon studied music theory, composition and English literature, the latter under WH Auden. His interest in Haydn had already been piqued as a schoolboy, but an encounter with the scholar Karl Geiringer, his teacher at Boston University (1945-47), helped him on his chosen path. Realising that his future lay in Europe, where all the relevant sources were located, he managed to secure work as a music critic and European correspondent for various US newspapers and journals, including Musical America.

Employment by the Times, for which he worked for nearly a decade, was a crucial factor in gaining him admittance to archives behind the iron curtain. The papers of Haydn's employers, the princes of Esterházy, in the National Library in Budapest, had recently been taken over by the state. General access was all but impossible, but the Times connection ensured that he was treated with courtesy and even offered a visa.

In 1949 the Haydn Society was founded at his instigation. Originally located in Boston, but later operating out of Vienna also, the society planned a complete edition of Haydn's works, of which only a tenth had been published at that time; the project was subsequently abandoned, though much valuable musicological work was undertaken by the society. Equally notable were the recordings it issued, which included a number of Haydn's works, not least symphonies and masses, that had been previously unavailable on disc. The first recordings of Mozart's C minor Mass and Idomeneo were also made by the society.

Partly in conjunction with the activities of the Haydn Society, Landon began to produce critical editions and other material relating to the composer at this time. The first major publishing milestone was The Symphonies of Joseph Haydn (1955), which presented those works in the context of Haydn's output as a whole and of 18th-century music in general. Meanwhile he published editions of a number of Haydn's other works, notably masses and operas, helping to stimulate performances and effectively bringing about a reappraisal of Haydn's abilities as a dramatic composer.

The crowning achievement of his Haydn scholarship was the five-volume Haydn: Chronicle and Works (1976-80). The prodigious detail in which Landon lays out in these volumes the documentary material unearthed from the archives is a compliment as much to his faithful publishers, Thames & Hudson, as it is to Landon himself. It is difficult to imagine a similar project being undertaken today. To take examples at random, in volume one the salaries and payments in kind made in 1760 to Haydn's musicians at Eisenstadt are listed: they include precise allocations of wheat, corn, lard, candles, cabbage and beets, and, for some privileged players, a pig or two.

The third volume, covering the London years, includes, among its scores of documents, diary accounts by Haydn of his visit to Ascot, intimate information about Haydn's visits to a surgeon (wishing to remove a polyp from the composer's nose, the surgeon summoned "a few brawny fellows" to hold him down, but Haydn resisted) and much more besides.

Further esoterica are found in the copious footnotes, placed, where they belong but are too rarely found, on the page. If, in the case of Haydn, Landon's efforts effected a radical reappraisal of the composer by bringing many of the works into the public domain for the first time, with Mozart his influence was of a different order. By the time he produced his five Mozart publications – 1791: Mozart's Last Year, Mozart: The Golden Years, The Mozart Compendium, Mozart and Vienna, and The Mozart Essays – between 1988 and 1995, Mozart was firmly established in the pantheon of great composers. Thanks to the huge success of Peter Shaffer's 1979 play and 1984 film Amadeus, not only was Mozart's music suddenly on the bestseller lists, but a new mythology had grown up around the last months of Mozart's life: the relationship with Salieri, the Requiem, the "mysterious messenger", the final illness, the pauper's burial.

Landon's achievement was to cut through the fantasy and mystification to present the facts regarding the composer's last year, unveiling new documentary material in the process. He found no grounds for Mozart's having been poisoned by Salieri, or anyone else, taking the most likely cause of Mozart's death to be a combination of medical factors including progressive kidney failure, and restored the reputation of his wife, Constanze, slandered over decades as a scatterbrained, lascivious woman, incapable of understanding Mozart and encouraging him to live a disorderly, if not dissolute, existence. As text editor of 1791: Mozart's Last Year, I was privileged to play a small role in the dissemination of this revisionist view of Mozart.

Landon had always been generous in his acknowledgment of editorial and other assistance. In his earlier work on Haydn, his first wife, Christa Landon, a distinguished harpsichordist and scholar in her own right, killed in an air crash in 1977, had been an indispensable colleague. His second wife, Else Radant, also a historian of some note, was to provide further invaluable support for the next couple of decades. He relied too on a secretariat and assorted assistants, publicists and editors to manage his schedule and other administrative trivia, allowing him to concentrate on the matters in which he had the expertise. For all the exhaustiveness of his research and annotation, detail was not necessarily his strong suit.

Nor were the niceties of prose style, which made the process of coaxing the material he provided into a coherent narrative an interesting challenge.

His freely expressed gratitude to assistants, as to fellow-scholars, made him a pleasure to work with, however. It was an instructive experience too: one could but marvel at his ability to bring to life the dry documentary material retrieved from dusty library shelves. Both on the printed page and in the radio studio he communicated an enthusiasm that for once endowed musicology with the excitement of a detective story. It was this lightness of touch allied to his scholarly credentials and an almost missionary desire to share knowledge with the world at large that brought him unprecedented financial rewards as well as critical acclaim. In an interview conducted a couple of years before he died, he reported that he had just received a royalty cheque for his five Mozart books amounting to $80,000. Even allowing for the multiple reissues and translations of 1791, the figure represents an astonishing, and surely unequalled, return on a scholarly endeavour of this nature.

An episode that Landon and others of us would probably prefer to gloss over occurred a few years after the publication of 1791. Towards the end of 1993, a group of six piano sonatas thought to be by Haydn came to light, their authenticity verified by the performer-scholars Paul and Eva Badura-Skoda and by Landon. The January issue of the BBC Music Magazine, of which I was then reviews editor, carried an article by Landon proclaiming their merits. The February issue carried a retraction, it having been discovered that the sonatas were a skilful modern fraud perpetrated by a German recorder player and composer called Winfried Michel. The episode illustrates perhaps Landon's penchant for precipitate and over-zealous judgment, but it provoked at the same time a worthwhile debate about the extent to which our perception of the greatness of works is determined by our knowledge of their composer.

Other composers on whom he worked and published included Vivaldi, Handel, JC Bach and Beethoven. Some of the work outside his specialist field was criticised for its lack of scholarly rigour, though none could dispute the brio he brought to his subject. The book Five Centuries of Music in Venice (1991), written in conjunction with John Julius Norwich, was conceived as a companion to a television series called Maestro, created by Landon and Norwich, and broadcast by Channel 4 in association with the French broadcaster La Sept. His autobiographical Horns in High C, published in 1999, related the events of his career with characteristically breathless enthusiasm.

His academic appointments included professorships at Queens College, New York (1969) and the University of California at Davis (1970). He was John Bird Professor of Music at the University of Wales, Cardiff (1978-93) and a fellow of Lady Margaret Hall, Oxford (1979). He was also awarded honorary doctorates by Boston University, Queen's University, Belfast, Bristol University and the New England Conservatory, as well as the Siemens prize (1991) and the medal of honour of the Handel and Haydn Society (1993).

Fluent in several languages, Robbie made his home at different times in America, Britain, Vienna and France. It was to his beautiful 18th-century chateau at Rabastens, near Toulouse, that he finally retired, spending his last decade or so with his companion Marie-Noelle Raynal-Bechetoille, who, like Else Radant, survives him (there were no children from either marriage). An epicurean and bon vivant, he was no less generous with his hospitality than with his scholarship.

To spend time in his company was as exhausting as it was stimulating: nuggets of musical fact would be extricated from the vast repository of knowledge that was his brain. A tendency to solipsism was balanced by a remarkable capacity for thoughtfulness. I was deeply touched to receive a telephone call from him one Christmas Day when he guessed I would be on my own. Others will have different stories to tell of his boundless generosity. Larger than life, he was an inspirational presence, bringing a penetrating intellect and theatrical flair to the world of musicology.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Franco on November 25, 2009, 05:35:05 AM

Sad news, and yes, he was one of the most, if not the most, important music historians researching and writing about the Classical period composers and style. His books are required reading for anyone wishing to learn what this music is about.

I never knew what the H. C. stood for until today.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2009, 05:49:52 AM

Quote from: Franco on November 25, 2009, 05:35:05 AM
I never knew what the H. C. stood for until today.

I am the proud owner of 6 of his books. I didn't know either... :-[

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on November 25, 2009, 09:26:47 AM

Didn't HC Robbins Landon do a transcription or completion of Mozart's Great Mass in C minor? Maybe I am thinking of someone else.

Wow, I've seen this name several times, but I thought it was someone from the 18th or 19th Century? :-\

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2009, 10:24:12 AM

Quote from: Brahmsian on November 25, 2009, 09:26:47 AM
Didn't HC Robbins Landon do a transcription or completion of Mozart's Great Mass in C minor? Maybe I am thinking of someone else.

Wow, I've seen this name several times, but I thought it was someone from the 18th or 19th Century? :-\

No. You might mean Robert Levin... :o

Well, been around a long time, that's for sure. Not quite THAT long though... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on November 25, 2009, 11:30:46 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2009, 10:24:12 AM
No. You might mean Robert Levin... :o

Well, been around a long time, that's for sure. Not quite THAT long though... :D

8)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Mass_in_C_minor_(Mozart) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Mass_in_C_minor_(Mozart))

Under "Fragmentary Status"

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2009, 11:42:38 AM

Quote from: Brahmsian on November 25, 2009, 11:30:46 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Mass_in_C_minor_(Mozart) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Mass_in_C_minor_(Mozart))

Under "Fragmentary Status"

Yup. They're both listed there, in fact. I have the Levin completion, haven't seen any offerings of the Landon one... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on November 25, 2009, 10:21:06 PM

Endellion Op.74:

Thankfully, Op.74 came in the mail today, to complement the Auryn Op.71. Amd, what an interesting comparison it is.

First off, please forgive me for poo-pooing Opp. 71/74 for being "weak". Hearing two different bands in these two-in-one sets, was enlightening. Either both groups sound very similar, or the music sounds unique no matter who plays it. In this case, I noticed that the "orchestral" double violin line throughout both sets causes the ear to hear similarities.

I am beginning to hear the "public" aspects of these sets. There seems to be only about 2 things happening at any given time, a simplfying aimed at seeking comprehension from newer and larger audeiences. My point is, my dislike of these sets has been illuminated, and my enjoyment of them has begun.

I liked the Endellion's Op.54, but I wondered if Op.74 would have the same boxy acoustics, but no, Op.74 sounds a bit more open than Op.54. What do you think?

The Endellion do play with some "wood", as opposed to the Auryn's porceliene(?) tone, and they emphasize the beat more, but overall, both groups have a bit more, a-hem "leisurely", gait than I'm used to, but, of course, both perfectly justify their tempos, which, in the Auryn I can't fault, and though I can't really fault the Endellion, I wouldn't have minded a little more in the fast bits (once again, no real criticism though: the Endellions combine tone and technique like no one else I've heard play Haydn).

The only compare I have is the ABQ Teldec Box in 74/3, the "Rider", though I can recollect the Amadeus from back in May. The Endellions take the opening a shade slower than the ABQ's, in my mind, perfect tempo, but the weight and point they give it adds to the intensity. I remember the Amadeus being very outgoing, and dramatic, perhaps preferring them slightly to the ABQ's more refined and machine like ensemble.

The Endellions are a full minute longer in the slow mvmt. (ABQ: 6:19/Endlln: 7:24), which, and I'm stretching here I suppose, seems to indicate a more Romantic approach than the ABQ's more Classical one? What do you think? They certainly emphasize the silences more than the ABQ.

The finale is 5:43/5:42, so, this is where things get interesting. I gotta give this to the Endellions, who imbue the opening with a bit more Romantic passion than the ABQ's more Classical Viennese lilt; though, one does hear more of the Viennese (am I spelling that right?) high society with the ABQ. The Endellions really get a nice dig on the chugga chugga rhythm, though the ABQ of course keep pace in their own fine way. I remember the Amadeus being perhaps the most red-blooded of all. As a matter of fact, I think their 71/74 is maybe the most consistently great set by them (haven't heard 54/55). I do hear that the Auryn's Op.74 might be The One.

I know I had the Kodaly Op.74 back in the day, but I can't remember the "Rider" at all. Though I can't imagine them better, their big sound must work well with the more public aspects of these sets. I wouldn't mind trying their Op.71 (anyone?).

Does anyone else feel that these two sets come closet to sounding like Dittersdorf's SQs?, perhaps in those less than obvious ways?

I'm also hearing earlier Haydn SQs throughout these two sets (finale of 74/2, opening of 74/1), as if Haydn went through his catalog reprising certain cool bits that he must have thought would work anew in their new public guise.

Does anyone else hear Op.50 in these sets?, perhaps in the tight thematicism?

Anyhow, I'm starting to notice the more orchestral writing going on here, which might also be why the simpler themes are more conducive. Yea, these sets seem to have stuff going on underneath the actual notes,...hmmm. Elusive. Masonic.

I know a lot of you love these Endellion performances. Waddaya say???

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Valentino on November 25, 2009, 10:27:36 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2009, 04:39:08 AM
One of the founders of musicology as a modern science, and the man who made Haydn the name today that it should have always been, but sadly wasn't. All Haydnites should be glad to have had him. :'(

:'( indeed. Thank you, Gurn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on November 25, 2009, 11:42:43 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2009, 04:39:08 AM
One of the founders of musicology as a modern science, and the man who made Haydn the name today that it should have always been, but sadly wasn't. All Haydnites should be glad to have had him. :'( (obit courtesy of The Guardian)

We should be grateful to him, indeed. :) I can't help but note the he died in Haydn's Year.

P.S.: I was very certain that you would have known about this, but this post never turned up in a search for "landon."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Marc on November 26, 2009, 11:45:26 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2009, 04:39:08 AM
One of the founders of musicology as a modern science, and the man who made Haydn the name today that it should have always been, but sadly wasn't. All Haydnites should be glad to have had him. :'( (obit courtesy of The Guardian)

• Howard Chandler Robbins Landon,
Musicologist, born 6 March 1926; died 20 November 2009

Read this today.
Sad news indeed.
R.I.P.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2009, 06:31:00 PM

Quote from: Opus106 on November 25, 2009, 11:42:43 PM
We should be grateful to him, indeed. :) I can't help but note the he died in Haydn's Year.

P.S.: I was very certain that you would have known about this, but this post never turned up in a search for "landon."

I am guessing that there was no announcement made for a couple of days, since the 20th was Friday, and I only heard it on Monday or Tuesday.

I am sure that the irony was not lost on him at the last... :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Biondi, Fabio/Europa Galante - Corelli - Concerto Grosso in D Op6/7: III Adagio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on November 27, 2009, 03:25:26 PM

Auryn SQ/ Op.76:

ooo...

I could hardly wait. I had to know how the first 10secs. of the Fifths was going to go. And,... and,... hmmm, very nice. It's just straighforward, with a seamless tonal spectrum at the end of the phrase, when it gets a bit thick. The first thing I notice is that, once again, the Auryn have a smooth, ABQ-like marble polish, with not much "wood" sound (see: Tatrai). Of course, rgus is not so much a criticism, as an observation. Some more wood would have been nice, but that's the spectrum of interpretation that one can have different "styles", just like HIP and Modern. In the Modern camp, you can have marble, or wood, or both. You know what I mean?

Anyhow, wood vs. marble notwithstanding, the Auryn's ensemble sounds a lot like the ABQ's Teldec Mozart. They're right in the pocket on every front: not too much, not too little, just right, all the time.

My only recollective compare is the Amadeus set. As with op.71, the Amadeus are more red blooded in places like the witch's minuet, and so forth, but the Auryn benefit from a wider palette of moods, though, once again, a little more wood in the tone would have been nice.

I'M NOT COMPLAINING!!! SERIOUSLY

I would have expected nothing more from the ABQ, which was my first choice before this one came along at a bargain price (I'd still like to compare with ABQ though; I do have the Emperor on the Teldec Box...).

Standouts include certain passages where the cellist really digs in (finale No.6), and dominates the scene (yes, with wood!), and the violin's almost cinematically beautiful tone (in the good way, not Kodaly). I was afraid the Auryn might be a bit cool, but no, they are quite alive inside every bar.

I was going to say I might have preferred a bit more speed in certain places (also in Op.71), as if I could have everything I want, but no, the Auryn's tempos are all just right Goldilocks.

Judging by what's available, I would have to think that this has just shot up into the Top3 interpretations/recordings of these works. Can I get a witness?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on November 27, 2009, 03:55:05 PM

Auryn vs. ABQ

Emperor Quartet

I've switched the cds back and forth, so I can't see, ha, and I can't tell the difference! Both groups sound almost identical in the first mvmt. I detect just a touch more wood in the Auryn's tone (which, ain't much as it is, but hey), but hey, who's counting? Given the 30 year recording difference, the total lack of difference in the sound says much. Of course, the Tacit recording is in another league, but the Teldec engineers sure knew what they were doing.

The slow mvmt. sounds equally nice in both versions.

ah, remember the "timings" thing? Well, here is one of those times when it does tell some tales. The ABQ take 4:16, and sound just right in their spring and point and quickness. The Auryn, at 4:50, start the mvmt. off seeming just a little too polite, by contrast. By the time of the "jokey" sounding upward and downward part, things seem to have ironed themselves out. Once again, something out of context sounds fine until compared to something else (by the same token, however, some may think the ABQ a touch too quick).

Ah, and the big minor key finale! And the winner is...!!!...???... well, ha, once again they start off sounding almost exact. Here the Auryn give just a little more "dig" in the slashing chords, but, then the ABQ's cellist takes him in the fast cello runs. Well, they're pretty equal, really.

Well, I think the point is, that there are different camps of playing, and the Auryn and the ABQ both belong to that "sound of Vienna" school that makes violins sound like aural sculture. Both groups sound almost equal in every single respect, so total is either group's dedication, it appears. Apparently, when you get this good, haha,...excuse me, sir, but "good" sounds like "this"! Both groups could perhaps use a little more wood in their diet, but then again, neither group is "that" kind of group, that lets it all hang out, and takes lots of chances. When you get to the level of the Auryn and the ABQ, refinement is the name of the game. You've got the chops and the personality,... now,... let that which is written speak.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on November 27, 2009, 03:58:33 PM

Snyprrr....you are a man possessed! :D Happy listening to those incredible Op.76ers.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 27, 2009, 06:46:02 PM

Bunch of new Haydn arrived this week; haven't even had a chance to listen to all of it yet. Working at it though! These 7 disks all made it in the last 3 days:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/300x300.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/4tetforvoices.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Haydn_Acht_Adlam_.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Acidecover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Bauciscover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Fltenuhrcover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/steckduos.jpg)

By and large, this is some very rarely recorded music, and I am at the point now of filling in all the spaces of things that aren't going to be included in the Big Box (next week, for sure!!), or else is a particularly nice version beyond what the Big Box will give me.

The first one is Book 1 of the German Lieder which he wrote in the early 1780's. This disk also includes his 1790 cantata "Arianna a Naxos". Since we have been discussing his new "Virtual Haydn" DVD here lately, I will just point out that it is Tom Beghin on the fortepiano. The soprano, Andrea Folan, is reputed to have a superb voice. I am looking forward to spinning this one, since the Lieder are new to me, and the cantata I only have in a modern version. These works are in the Big Box, performed by Elly Ameling and Jörg Demus. I wanted a more modern version, plus I didn't want all the vocal works by the same artists. So this was a natural choice. More when I have it. :)

The 9 vocal quartets are not in the Big Box, for reasons that i don't understand at all. They are late works, and very well spoken of. This disk, on Arabesque, also includes Mozart's notturnos, a lovely set of songs that he wrote for performance among his friends. Some good performers on this disk, I can't wait until it comes up in the queue. Perhaps some of you have a different recording of these works. I'm interested to hear about it, since they are apparently thin on the ground

Then the Derek Adlam clavichord disk, which I mentioned when I purchased it, has finally arrived. This is a very nice disk, highly recommendable. If you have other clavichord disks and know what they usually sound like, you will be pleasantly surprised with this one. The "muffled" (I call it that in lieu of a proper adjective) sound is minimized, it sounds rather more like a quiet harpsichord in most places. Adlam is really a good player and he has found that intimacy that these pieces require. I noticed (after paying full price myself) that this disk is also available at BRO at a good price. :)

Acide was Haydn's first opera, written in 1762. There are some chunks missing out of it, which I presume to be the reason for it not showing up at either the Big Box, or even in the Dorati "Complete Operas" box. AFAIK, this is the only recording. It couldn't have been better served though, with the Haydn Sinfonietta Wein / Manfred Huss and that great BIS sound. One run through turned up a couple of very nice arias and some good music.

"Philemon et Baucis" is a marionette opera from 1772, the first I've heard. I was surprised to discover that it is more like a Singspeil than an opera; the dialog is all spoken rather than sung. This is also a fragmentary work, but pretty big fragments they are. With the same performers as Acide, it is done well. I have to listen more than once to make good sense of it though... :-\

Now we come to the works for Flötenuhr (Flute/Clock). This is the only modern recording floating around with all 32 works on it from Hob XIX. I would be delighted to give a more complete history of these pieces in another post, if asked, but suffice to say that Haydn combined original pieces with adaptations of some of his other works to make these pieces. Purists will say that only the original pieces should be counted, so they come up with a dozen or so. BUt I say "let 'em crash", I like the whole bunch. They are adapted for play on an organ since recreating the original instrument would be prohibitive. Some of them are in the Big Box, but I think not the entire group. BTW, there is some nice Beethoven on here too. :)

Finally, a disk of works that we have discussed before, but under different circumstances. That is the 6 duos of Hob VI. I have the version that was adapted for violin and cello, played by Duo Ongarese on Hungaroton. There, they have a certain somber air about them, and I really do like them. But I always wanted the original version for violin and viola, and figured to get it in the Big Box, since there are few versions running loose. Well, Brilliant leased a version, and wouldn't you know, it was the one I already have! So when there was a discussion recently on the merits of Anton Steck's fiddling (in which he came out on top), and I discovered that he had recorded these works with the violist from Concentus Musicus Wien/Concerto Köln/Musica Antiqua Köln etc., it was a no brainer to shop for it. Well, I have to say, it sounds like 6 entirely different works! The viola is so much lighter than the cello, and the playing by both of these fellows is so light and wonderfully intimate that this is a can't miss enjoyment. Strongly recommend, even if you already have the other. Especially if you already have the other. :D

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Anton Steck (Violon) Christian Goosses (Alto) - Hob 06 04 Duo in D for Violin & Viola 3rd mvmt - Tempo di Menuet

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 28, 2009, 06:33:33 AM

Gurn - thanks for the Papa Joe recommendations; the instrumental works interest me the most at the moment, especially the Clavichord Sonatas etc. & the String Duos; the BRO price for the former disc is certainly attractive; the ACCENT label seems to be 'expensive' at the moment on Amazon at least (much cheaper 'across the pond'!) - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 28, 2009, 06:37:40 AM

Quote from: SonicMan on November 28, 2009, 06:33:33 AM
Gurn - thanks for the Papa Joe recommendations; the instrumental works interest me the most at the moment, especially the Clavichord Sonatas etc. & the String Duos; the BRO price for the former disc is certainly attractive; the ACCENT label seems to be 'expensive' at the moment on Amazon at least (much cheaper 'across the pond'!) - Dave :)

Dave,
Yeah, I bought the Steck from Import CDs (new) for $17. Apparently it was the last copy they had, because the next lowest price was $26 and it floated to the top. All I can say is that it is worthwhile to shop around for it. I doubt highly that $26 is suggested retail price, so a sane price should show up sooner or later. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Anthony Halstead, Hanover Band - Hob 01 031 Symphony in D 1st mvmt - Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on November 28, 2009, 07:37:09 AM

Haha,... :D

Op.76

What do you think of this list?:

(Aeolian)
Amadeus
Tokyo

Tatrai
Panocha
Prazak

Kodaly
Angeles

Auryn
ABQ
Carmina
Alberni

...and, then for HIP:

Buchberger
Mosaiques
Festetics
Kuijken

??? Elysee??? with, of all things, Webern's 6 Bagatelles??? ??? ???

And, then for individual works (not complete):

Suk (2)
Delme (3)
Caspar da Salo (3)
Manfred (1,3,4)
New Zurich (4,6)
Carmina (1)
Concord (2-3)
Rosamunde (3)
Orlando (4,6)*** (very fine No.4, as I recall)
New Amsterdam (1)HIP
ProArte (3-4)
Eder (2-4)
Cleveland (5)
Minetti (5)HIP?
Jerusalem (2)HIP?
Vienna Musikverein (3-5; Platz)
Gewandhaus (2-4)
Italiano (2-3)
Alcan (3?)

Now, talk amoungst yourselves. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 28, 2009, 09:15:57 AM

Haydn - 8 Concerti for Harpsichord, Piano and Organ
Christine Schornsheim
Neue Düsseldorfer Hofmusik
Mary Utiger, direction
Capriccio
2 CD-set
Recording: Leverkusen, Erholungshaus, 06.30-07.06.08

Excellent recording.

IMO, Schornsheim's performances are beyond good and evil here; even her tempi are always convincing (an issue for me in some sonatas by her). The small ensemble [concertmistress; 2 oboes; fagot; 2 horns; kettledrum; 2 first violins; 2 second violins; 2 violas; violoncello; double-bass] sounds and it has a HIP gesture, but I don't know exactly what kind of instruments are playing its members because that information is not provided in the Spartan booklet. Anyway, Schornsheim uses (copies of) period instruments. Good sound quality.

Hoboken included eleven keyboard concertos under the number XVIII of his catalogue. But currently a complete recording of these pieces should include just eight of them, as it is done here, because Hob. XVIII is really a concerto for violin & organ/harpsichord; Hob. XVIII.7 is just an arrangement of Haydn's trio for harpsichord, violin & cello N°6, Hob. XV.40 (without proofs about his authorship); and, finally, Hob. XVIII.9 is apocryphal.

Another thing is the choice of the instruments, apparently a doubtful matter even for Haydn himself during his life. Anyway, it seems acceptable to divide these concertos into two groups:

- organ/harpsichord: 1, 2, 5, 8 & 10
- harpsichord/pianoforte: 3, 4 & 11

In this recording Schornsheim plays:
- on organ: 1, 10 & 8
- on harpsichord: 2, 5 & 3
- on fortepiano: 4 & 11

At a bargain price -US $12 on CD Universe, for example- it is a no-brainer.

Here an example:

http://www.divshare.com/flash/playlist?myId=9528383-f72

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gabriel on November 28, 2009, 09:55:41 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on November 25, 2009, 11:42:43 PM
We should be grateful to him, indeed. :) I can't help but note the he died in Haydn's Year.

I thought almost exactly the same (my precise thought was that he was able to experience the exact bicentennial day of May 31st 2009).

I think he is now talking to Haydn in Heaven and knowing many details of Haydn's compositions and life he wasn't able to know on Earth. My thanks to this great musicologist who struggled for (and achieved) a better understanding of the classical style.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on November 28, 2009, 10:43:41 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on November 28, 2009, 07:37:09 AM
What do you think of this list?:

It's a list.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 28, 2009, 11:22:15 AM

Thanks for that info, Antoine. Of course, it is hard for a Haydnphile to not already have all of these works, but I like her concept of using appropriate instruments in her sonata set, and I think I will like it in here too. Looks like I have to do it, although I am just a sucker for no-brainers (they are just too easy!). :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Anthony Halstead, Hanover Band - Hob 01 031 Symphony in D 1st mvmt - Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on November 28, 2009, 12:55:18 PM

Antione
I have had that CD in my wish list for some time now, I was very pleasantly surprised how good the complete Schornshein Haydn sonata set was so am now becoming a Schornsheim fan

I am assuming she uses a very small organ for the sonatas, does it sound strange or out of context in conjunction with harpsicord & forte piano?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 28, 2009, 01:12:10 PM

Quote from: DarkAngel on November 28, 2009, 12:55:18 PM
Antione
I have had that CD in my wish list for some time now, I was very pleasantly surprised how good the complete Schornshein Haydn sonata set was so am now becoming a Schornsheim fan

I am assuming she uses a very small organ for the sonatas, does it sound strange or out of context in conjunction with harpsicord & forte piano?

DA,
Well, I just ordered that disk at CDUniverse, so I will find out for myself soon enough. The organ should not sound out of scale (I assume that's what you mean) especially if it IS a rather small one. These were composed for himself to play at a little church down the road, and the organ was small indeed. They are some of his earliest works, BTW, dating from the mid-1750's. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Camerata Berolinensis - Hob 05 11 Trio in Eb for Strings 1st mvmt - Moderato

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 28, 2009, 03:30:21 PM

Quote from: DarkAngel on November 28, 2009, 12:55:18 PM
I am assuming she uses a very small organ for the sonatas, does it sound strange or out of context in conjunction with harpsicord & forte piano?

Hi, DA.

Unfortunately the booklet doesn't offer detailed information on the instruments used by the soloist. It just indicates: "Orgel/organ: Klop (Bj. 2008)", which is apparently a reference to the organ builder HENK KLOP (http://www.klop.info/en/home), who builds small sized pipe organs. The instrument used here is a small one, totally suitable to the dimensions of the ensemble and historic conditions referred by Gurn.

BTW, currently you can listen to large excerpts of the Capriccio's catalogue –including this disc - on the Naxos site.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 28, 2009, 03:52:52 PM

Antoine et al - I've had the Haydn Keyboard Concertos on my 'wish list' for a while; currently, I just own the Brautigam single disc on fortepiano (Hob. XVIII 2,3,4,11), but remain 'unclear' as to how many of these types of works Joe wrote (and of course for what instruments?).

In the list shown below, it seems that 2-3 discs would be needed to include all of these works for H. XVIII; now for a number of months I've been looking at the 4-disc set below w/ Massimo Palumbo; the listings include both H. 18 & H. 14 works, so somewhat confused as to 'how many' discs will encompass Haydn's keyboard concertos?

Would appreciate further comments & recommendations - the Christine Schornsheim set certainly appeals to me (I do have her PS box set) - :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41JWJEMEA0L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

For harpsichord, organ or piano

* Keyboard Concerto No. 1 in C, Hob. XVIII/1 (1756)
* Keyboard Concerto No. 2 in D, Hob. XVIII/2 (1767)
* Keyboard Concerto No. 3 in F with French horns and strings, Hob. XVIII/3 (1771)
* Keyboard Concerto No. 4 in G, Hob. XVIII/4 (1770)
* Keyboard Concerto No. 5 in C with strings, Hob. XVIII/5 (1763)
* Keyboard Concerto No. 6 in F with violin and strings (Double Concerto), Hob. XVIII/6 (1766)
* Keyboard Concerto No. 7 in F, Hob. XVIII/7 (exists with a different slow movement as the piano trio Hob. XV/40)
* Keyboard Concerto No. 8 in C, Hob. XVIII/8 (1766)
* Keyboard Concerto No. 9 in G, Hob. XVIII/9 (1767)
* Keyboard Concerto No. 10 in C, Hob. XVIII/10 (1771)
* Keyboard Concerto in F, Hob. XVIII/F2
* Keyboard Concerto No. 11 in D, Hob. XVIII/11 (1779-80)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 28, 2009, 04:16:04 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on November 28, 2009, 03:52:52 PM
... the listings include both H. 18 & H. 14 works, so somewhat confused as to 'how many' discs will encompass Haydn's keyboard concertos?

Hi, Dave. Two discs are enough. Just the eight concertos mentioned in my previous post are currently considered true keyboard concertos by Haydn. It is also authentic the Hob. XVIII.F2, but it is a concertino (harpsichord, two violins & bass), not a concerto. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on November 28, 2009, 04:24:10 PM

Antoine
I am not a member at Naxos site but listened again to Amazon short samples, will buy the Schornsheim 2CD concerto set, also found some other secret Schornsheim goodies to put in basket.......this would have been a buy if price were not astronomical, listening to Amazon samples now ;)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51F44C0S03L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 28, 2009, 05:11:20 PM

Dave (et al),
If you want the complete keyboard concerti (all PI), you will find that 4 disks does it nicely if you combine this disk with the Schornsheim:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/df/e4/d994793509a07fcc96123110.L.jpg)

Koopman has all of the Hob 14 concertini also. The reason I would plug in the Schornsheim for the Hob 18 things is the more proper instruments, since Koopman is harpsichord all the way, and leaves out some of the organ concerti too. I think you would have the equivalent of 3 to 3.5 disks, thus equaling the Palumbo in duration. As for his box, I enjoyed the playing on it, but of course, the instrument... ;)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Christine Schornsheim - Hob 16 45 Sonata #29 in Eb for Keyboard 1st mvmt - Moderato

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 28, 2009, 06:39:53 PM

Just to complete the information, I have another two sets dedicated to these concertos:

Helmut Müller-Brühl & the Cologne Chamber Orchestra (modern instruments) have recorded on Naxos the complete keyboard concertos (2 CDs) with three different soloists: Harald Hoeren [fortepiano: 2, organ: 1, 8 & 10]; Ketil Haugsand [harpsichord: 5 & 7] and Sebastian Knauer [piano: 3, 11, 4 & 9]. These recordings include some material currently considered spurious; a half of the concertos are played on modern piano and it is included the double concerto in F major for violin and keyboard played on fortepiano by Hoeren. As you can see, quite a mixed bag.

Anton Holzapfel (organ) & the ensemble Dolce Risonanza recorded on Brilliant the complete organ concertos (2 Cds), adding some pieces for flötenuhr, the double concerto and the arrangement of the trio Hob. XV:40. Good performances on period instruments, although IMO a little bit lethargic, lacking energy. This 2 CD-set is also included in the big Brilliant box.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on November 28, 2009, 11:08:18 PM

I'm just sayin, for this being Haydn's most popular set, that's really not a lot of versions is it? or, is it?

Another thing about these sets is how, besides the regular stawlarts, each set has it's own interesting one-off recordings, and Op.76 is no different, as you can see (the Carmina and Alberni stand out as intriguing); but, still, it just seems like a relatively small amount, no? What's missing?

But, another thing one might notice, is the different "camps" of interpretation, to show what kind of string quartets have been drawn towards playing this set. You have your red blooded Czech-type groups (do the Amadeus really belong here?), your super refined Viennese type groups, your token oldie in the Aeolian, your HIPsters.

Even amoungst the HIPsters there are different styles of interpretation. I'm guessing the Kuijken is of a different bent than the QM or QF. One thing about Op.76, apparently there is no set by the Salomon, which seems strange. They would have made for an interesting quartet of interpretations. That orchestral sound the QM got for Op.20, or just the way I remember them playing Op.20, I think they must do a bang up job on Op.76. Anyone?

I'm curious in the Panocha and the Prazak, as well as the Tatrai. I wonder who's the wildest with these?

Quote from: Herman on November 28, 2009, 10:43:41 AM
It's a list.

Who do you like?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on November 29, 2009, 02:26:10 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on November 28, 2009, 11:08:18 PM
I'm just sayin, for this being Haydn's most popular set, that's really not a lot of versions is it? or, is it?

[...]

Who do you like?

There are no 'popular sets' in the string quartet genre (excepting, maybe, the Debussy / Ravel coupling which possibly some people mistake for impressionistic mood music. String quartets are a niche taste. And IMO it's quite a long list. I could imagine a record label exec looking at this list and saying 'no need for another op 76 recording', even though recording a string quartet is fairly cheap compared to yet another Mahler 5.

Currently I tend to pick the Panocha if I want to hear one or two op 76 SQs.

You also have to keep in mind string quartet lovers don't necessarily hoard cds; if you go to a string quartet recital you often meet people who do not have a whole lot of cds, but are massively SQ-erudite thanks to their concert going.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 29, 2009, 04:57:02 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 27, 2009, 06:46:02 PM

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/300x300.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/4tetforvoices.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Haydn_Acht_Adlam_.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Acidecover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Bauciscover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Fltenuhrcover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/steckduos.jpg)

It's weird to say this, but through these purchases you can see the effort of the buyer. They are not necessarily the bread of every day, but some kind of caviar for a special meal. Congratulations, Gurn!
Entincing suggentions indeed. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 29, 2009, 07:33:37 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 29, 2009, 04:57:02 AM
It's weird to say this, but through these purchases you can see the effort of the buyer. They are not necessarily the bread of every day, but some kind of caviar for a special meal. Congratulations, Gurn!
Entincing suggentions indeed. :)

Thank you, Antoine. I have to admit, things that are off Main Street, even by a composer as well known as Haydn, are my meat and potatoes. Perhaps it is the thrill of the hunt? :) Anyway, I think that you would enjoy some of these too. The Steck and the Adlam in particular. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Philippe Herreweghe; Orchestre Des Champs Élysées - Beethoven Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 3rd mvmt - Adagio molto e cantabile

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on December 02, 2009, 11:48:46 AM

Gurn
I have placed order for that 2Cd Phillips Duo of Keyboard concertos, samples sound very good :)
This will join the 2CD Schornsheim/Capriccio and 1Cd Brautigam/BIS

Also can I put in a plug for another Schornsheim CD, check these samples sounds good to me.....order placed
I think the CD back says keyboard is an Erard 1802 & 1808

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51nWH2YpMgL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 02, 2009, 11:57:33 AM

Quote from: DarkAngel on December 02, 2009, 11:48:46 AM
Gurn
I have placed order for that 2Cd Phillips Duo of Keyboard concertos, samples sound very good :)
This will join the 2CD Schornsheim/Capriccio and 1Cd Brautigam/BIS

Also can I put in a plug for another Schornsheim CD, check these samples sounds good to me.....order placed
I think the CD back says keyboard is an Erard 1802 & 1808

http://www.amazon.com/Alexandre-Pierre-Fran%C3%A7ois-Bo%C3%ABly-Caprices/dp/B001AMM3CA/ref=sr_1_36?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1259786592&sr=1-36 (http://www.amazon.com/Alexandre-Pierre-Fran%C3%A7ois-Bo%C3%ABly-Caprices/dp/B001AMM3CA/ref=sr_1_36?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1259786592&sr=1-36)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51nWH2YpMgL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

DA,
Well, that Koopman disk, along with the Schornsheim sonatas and the Trio 1790 trios, finally put an end to my aversion to harpsichord being used in Classical Era music. Most of the stuff is early, which makes it no less interesting, and Koopman IS a great harpsichordist. Another feature (and you heard it here first!) is that the Hob 18:11 Concerto in D has long been a bone of contention as to what instrument it was composed for. 1780 is late times for harpsichord music, it's true, but I tend to believe that this was Haydn's very last composition for that instrument. And recordings on the gravicembalo are thin on the ground, so you can well enjoy this one as it is first rate. I don't know that it settles the argument, but it does present the argument at least. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 02, 2009, 11:59:11 AM

Oh, BTW, I never heard of Boély, thanks for pointing out this disk. Have to look into it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on December 02, 2009, 12:36:24 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 02, 2009, 11:59:11 AM
Oh, BTW, I never heard of Boély, thanks for pointing out this disk. Have to look into it. :)
8)

The 1802 & 1808 Erard keyboards have a very unique sound that is slightly different than a late Anton Walter forte paino and say a Bosendorfer Imperial.......not as hard sounding, more etherial and floating

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on December 03, 2009, 05:39:33 AM

OK I have obtained original instrument keyboard concerto set with these:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Dp3JY%2BLzL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MM1yL1X8L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21D6DEBGBVL._SL500_AA130_.jpg)

Still out there are tempting additions with 1CD Staier and 4CD Palumbo set, are these must have?
Anyone know what keyboards Palumbo uses? If price was not so high the Staier would be instant buy.....

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51AQ0Q16MEL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41JWJEMEA0L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 03, 2009, 05:49:07 AM

Quote from: DarkAngel on December 03, 2009, 05:39:33 AM
OK I have obtained original instrument keyboard concerto set with these:

Still out there are tempting additions with 1CD Staier and 4CD Palumbo set, are these must have?
Anyone know what keyboards Palumbo uses? If price was not so high the Staier would be instant buy.....

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41JWJEMEA0L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

DA,
Palumbo is a modern instrument set. I have only heard one disk, and that was a long time ago. I thought his playing was very nice, although the instrument put me off a bit. Hopefully SonicMan will be around and check this out, since I know he has that box.

Yeah, that Staier is a bit rich for my blood, especially since I have that music 4 or 5 times over. Pity really... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 03, 2009, 06:14:18 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 03, 2009, 05:49:07 AM
DA,
Palumbo is a modern instrument set. I have only heard one disk, and that was a long time ago. I thought his playing was very nice, although the instrument put me off a bit. Hopefully SonicMan will be around and check this out, since I know he has that box.

DA & Gurn - back in June or so I posted on the Palumbo recordings; below is a quoted e-mail exchange that I had w/ the company. I actually decided NOT to buy the set because of the use of a 'modern' piano, the packaging (space considerations, again!), and the pricing, i.e. just no discount (not sure if that has change?); now, if this set had been re-packaged in sleeves and sold at half the price of the 4 separate discs, I likely would have made a purchase.

I currently have Schornsheim in my 'cart' someplace (MDT or Amazon) - just need to add some more! Also, I'm wondering why Brautigam has not recorded more of these works? The Koopman 2-disc set is on my wishlist and may be added to that cart? Dave :)

QuoteThank you for your Email and the interest in our Haydn Cd box.

Here are the answers to your questions:

1. It's a recorded on a standart grand piano. The Orchestra is the UECO (United Europe Chamber Orchestra) but they're not playing on period instuments.
2. These box sets consists of 4 seperate complete cds in jewlboxes, ech with a seperate booklet... all together are in a (carton) slipcase.

Please don't hesitate to contact me if you have further questions.

It would be lovely to receive your review by email.

Very kind regards

Barbara Hintermeier

ARTS MUSIC e.K. Hauptstraße 6 85462 Reisen Germany

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on December 03, 2009, 07:00:21 AM

Gurn & Sonic
Thanks for info on Palumbo set regarding keyboards........still want the Staier CD!
BTW there is a newer 2008 version of the Staier CD that is somewhat lower in price.......tempting ;)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31V2uuiMRmL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Sonic
Yes a more complete 2CD Haydn keyboard concerto set from Brautigam would have been ideal, looks like he is finishing up his Beethoven phase now with complete sonata set and piano concertos for BIS label (Beethoven concertos use modern piano)
He will have recorded the classical keyboard sonata set trifecta: Haydn -> Mozart -> Beethoven

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 03, 2009, 07:10:47 AM

Quote from: DarkAngel on December 03, 2009, 07:00:21 AM
Gurn & Sonic
Thanks for info on Palumbo set regarding keyboards........still want the Staier CD!
BTW there is a newer 2008 version of the Staier CD that is somewhat lower in price.......tempting ;)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31V2uuiMRmL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Yes, found it for $13 at Amazon.com. Not bad. Found the original version for $17 or 18. HM disks go OOP within a week, usually... ::) :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on December 03, 2009, 11:35:25 AM

Quote from: DarkAngel on December 03, 2009, 07:00:21 AM
Gurn & Sonic
Thanks for info on Palumbo set regarding keyboards........still want the Staier CD!
BTW there is a newer 2008 version of the Staier CD that is somewhat lower in price.......tempting ;)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31V2uuiMRmL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

It will tempt me no more.......since I have placed the buy order :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 03, 2009, 05:16:26 PM

Mysteries of music or probably just a proof of my fickle taste: I really love Brautigam's Haydn sonatas; but I dislike his Mozart and his Beethoven, especially the latter. On the other hand, I recognize to Staier as a competent fortepianist, but I have rarely got to be in tune with his search of beauty. I have resulted immune to his efforts. An example: his Haydn keyboard concertos... but probably something is wrong with my "antenna" in this case because many reliable people seem to enjoy his performances. :(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 03, 2009, 06:10:54 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 03, 2009, 05:16:26 PM
Mysteries of music or probably just a proof of my fickle taste: I really love Brautigam's Haydn sonatas; but I dislike his Mozart and his Beethoven, especially the latter. On the other hand, I recognize to Staier as a competent fortepianist, but I have rarely got to be in tune with his search of beauty. I have resulted immune to his efforts. An example: his Haydn keyboard concertos... but probably something is wrong with my "antenna" in this case because many reliable people seem to enjoy his performances. :(

Well, I agree, there really is no "sure thing" when it comes to performers or even to the music itself. Sorta the same
issues that the QM raise among PI'ons. As for Staier though, I came to him through Dussek, and he plays a wicked Dussek, so I was predisposed to liking him in other composers. I have none (that I can think of) of his concerto disks, only sonatas. So maybe the differences arise in the medium. :)

8)
----------------
Listening to: Rosand - Janacek - Romance

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on December 04, 2009, 04:45:07 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 03, 2009, 05:16:26 PM
Mysteries of music or probably just a proof of my fickle taste: I really love Brautigam's Haydn sonatas; but I dislike his Mozart and his Beethoven, especially the latter. On the other hand, I recognize to Staier as a competent fortepianist, but I have rarely got to be in tune with his search of beauty. I have resulted immune to his efforts. An example: his Haydn keyboard concertos... but probably something is wrong with my "antenna" in this case because many reliable people seem to enjoy his performances. :(

Staier can consistently be counted on to give you vigorous dramatic performances, so may not be style some like.
Was just listening to his 2CD Scarlatti sonata collection last night, he really amazes with his passion and technical virtuosity, he is in his element here sounds like he is improvising on the fly..........unfortunately he has a very small recorded output

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 05, 2009, 01:54:14 PM

Haydn House has transferred to cd the Nonesuch recordings of the London symphonies by Leslie Jones and the London Little Orchestra. Plus a number of their other Haydn symphony recordings. Samples can be found here (http://www.haydnhouse.com/HH1.htm) (go to page 18 to find them).

These are pre-HIP interpretations, but they are also quite superb (used to have a few on lp). I like the way Jones uses sometimes moderate tempi to underline accents, string or wind trills and various orchestral felicities. Rythms are sharp, sound is full and euphonious.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 05, 2009, 02:37:19 PM

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on December 05, 2009, 01:54:14 PM
Haydn House has transferred to cd the Nonesuch recordings of the London symphonies by Leslie Jones and the London Little Orchestra. Plus a number of their other Haydn symphony recordings. Samples can be found here (http://www.haydnhouse.com/HH1.htm) (go to page 18 to find them).

These are pre-HIP interpretations, but they are also quite superb (used to have a few on lp). I like the way Jones uses sometimes moderate tempi to underline accents, string or wind trills and various orchestral felicities. Rythms are sharp, sound is full and euphonious.

Lilas,
Yes, the Little Orchestra/Jones are surprisingly good for their time, and they have stood up to change quite nicely. I have Symphony 61 by them, courtesy of a member here, and was pleased with it. My good friend, the late Burchest, had all the LP's in their time and used to tell me about them, and rue that they weren't available on CD at that time. I was pleased to be able to get one, and I'll look at these too. Thanks for the link. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 10, 2009, 01:28:50 PM

Just received the Haydn clavichord disc shown & discussed below - 3 listens so far - excellent instrument and perfectly recorded for its sound! :D

Haydn, Joseph - Keyboard Sonatas et al performed by Derek Adlam on the clavichord, an instrument he built in 1982; description quoted below from HERE (http://www.guildmusic.com/catalog/gui7260z.htm); includes the full liner notes!

I own little clavichord music but love the sound of the instrument when recorded well - this disc (a Gurn recommendation) is a good representative - :)

QuoteThe clavichord was made by Derek Adlam in 1982. It is a copy of an instrument of 1763 by Johann Adolph Hass, Hamburg, Russell Collection, Edinburgh. Strung throughout in brass, the clavichord has a five-octave compass of FF to f3, unfretted, with an additional 4 foot string in the bass. The pitch is a1 = 405Hz, an approximation of mid-18th century Hamburg pitch. It is tuned in a sixth-comma system (Young 2), allowing free modulation but retaining a sense of key and chord colour.

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnAdlamClav/737226656_Xufhk-O.jpg) (http://www.guildmusic.com/jpg/clavic1.jpg)

(http://www.guildmusic.com/jpg/clavic2.jpg) (http://www.guildmusic.com/jpg/clavic3.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 10, 2009, 05:12:03 PM

What a lovely instrument that is, Dave. The keys are beautiful! Tortoiseshell you reckon? Adlam turns out to be more well-known for his instrument building than for his playing. He built the ones used in that super Mozart disk of Hogwood's "The Secret Mozart", and also played along on the couple of 4 hand pieces in there. I've found a couple more Haydn clavichord disks that I'm going to pick up. Only sticking point is that they tend to duplicate material due to certain pieces being just perfect for the instrument. So it goes. :-\

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Anner Bylsma / Stanley Hoogland - DuPort Sonata in D for 2 Cellos and Fortepiano 2nd mvmt - Adagio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on December 10, 2009, 09:40:25 PM

So, I guess I haaad to get the ABQ in Op.76 1,5,6. These three are some of the lesser known Haydn, and I just couldn't resist the compare to the Auryns, which I have been enjoying for a few weeks.

We went direct back and forth comparisons of individual mvmts. for quite a while, and, in a nutshell, both groups are of such utmost quality that it is simply their personalities that differ. The ABQ come off as the schoolmasters, whilst the Auryn's approach is more unbuttoned. The ABQ come off more masculine, the Auryn feminine(sp?).

I think we've established the different schools of quartet playing, and, I think both the Auryn and the ABQ could be categorized in the same, ultra-refined, Viennese style of playing (as opposed to the Lindsays, or the Tatrai). It is a credit to both groups that honors are pretty evenly divided between them. In one mvmt., the ABQ will dominate, and, poof, in the next, the Auryn.

Forgive me, I know, but here are the timings, and, I think they are interesting:

ABQ Auryn

76/1

5:53 9:03* (repeat)
7:07 7:10
2:23 2:26
5:57 6:11

76/5

4:21 4:58
6:21 8:45
2:37 2:52
3:50 3:52

76/6

6:36 6:52
6:48 8:31
3:27 3:42
4:36 6:40

As you can see, for the most part things are the same, the last two slow mvmts. providing the only really radical differences. The slow mvmt. of No.1, with exact timings, nevertheless yields different results, and here I thought the ABQ's greater intensity paid off (they also pull off the off-time violin thing with more nuance). By contrast, the Auryn's slower tempo in the famous Largo (No.5) is perfect, though the ABQ's rather matter-of-fact, almost two minute faster version gives a completely different, though valid, view. I do believe there is no repeat issue here, just two different approaches (I like Auryn here).

Both quartets have excellent contributions from the cellist.

The ABQ's Presto mvmts. win out in sheer bravura of perculating ensemble. They dig into their attacks with more wood, almost like the kitty cat sound- fft fft fft, I hope you know what I mean ::). The Auryn are a little more Mozart, whereas the ABQ are a little more Beethoven.

...I'm a little bit country...

In the Menuetto of No.1 is probably the best example. In the middle, there is a great, long, violin solo, and the ABQ play it well enough, but when you hear the Auryn, they bring out sooooo much more in terms of humore, and nuance, and humanity, and changing tone color. You're just not hearing that in the ABQ. I'll admit, the ABQ could've loosened their collars a bit here. Compared with the Auryn, they are most definitely thee professional quartet, and I do mean that in the best possible way. The Auryn just have a special charm here, like they are just in it for life. I think the ABQ are fitting Haydn into history, whereas the Auryn are just playing their hearts out.

I will say that I was initially disappointed in the ABQ, but half of that was the masculinity of their playing. Now, after going back and forth a lot, I have to say that the two groups complement each other wonderfully. I will give a very very slight overall nod to the Auryn, but they never ever rise to the passion of the ABQ. Both have perfect this and perfect that. Both find things the other did not. Is it apples and oranges, or, apples and apples???

The Auryn/Tacet recording is beyond reproach, whereas the ABQ/EMI recording is similar, though not audiophile, and a bit muscular (which is in no way a real criticism of their very good recording). This was NOT recorded "live", as so many of the ABQ's latter recordings were, and, I for one, was totally looking forward to this being "live". I thought their second LvB run was "live".

Honestly, now I want to try a TOTALLY different type of playing to compare with, say, either Tatrai, or QM/QF. I have the Alberni arriving tomorrow, and I don't know their style (the person I got it from didn't "warm" to them!!!).

BOTTOM LINE: in this, the perfect, Viennese-styled way of playing Haydn, both groups form an unbeatable tag-team matchup that should leave the competition running for cover,... if there was any. Alberni? Carmina? ~~Tokyo?~~

Considering how many excellent groups there are of different playing styles (HIP, Modern, Rustic, Rebel), I think my SQ listening has just taken a turn!

btw- I was at Borders today and actually touched a copy of the Hyperion Op.17. Oooo, Ahhh!!! The packaging sure makes you wanna buy it, it's real purdy.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on December 11, 2009, 01:01:23 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on December 10, 2009, 09:40:25 PM

I think we've established the different schools of quartet playing, and, I think both the Auryn and the ABQ could be categorized in the same, ultra-refined, Viennese style of playing (as opposed to the Lindsays, or the Tatrai).

The Auryn Qt has no Viennese roots whatsoever. I believe two of its members are from northern Germany, and two from Britain. In their training they haven't been particularly Vienna-oriented either.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 11, 2009, 08:16:54 AM

Here is another list of recent acquisitions. It is a great pleasure for me to be able to get my hands on some of these disks of harder to find music.

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/28/281954.JPG) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/415ZBKP4GDL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61HA6XYS6JL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41SAT8MG9DL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41zuApvNiPL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/511BTXR6n2L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

The Hacker nocturnes are a period instrument version of the 8 nocturnes for lira organizatte, but they are NOT the original version for the King of Naples; they are the version that Haydn reorchestrated version for flute and oboe that Haydn himself did so he could take them to London in 1791. These 8 works are also available by L'Archibudelli, which are on a single disk. It is interesting to note that the overall length is 38 minutes longer on the Hacker version, which I guess must be attributed to repeats. I will be pleased when this shows up (it's in the mail still) so I can check that.

Next are the 2 volumes of London symphonies by Collegium Musicum / Hickox. I have had these for a couple of years at least, since I got them as downloads when they first came available. With Hickox' death last year the cycle will never be completed, and given the sparsity of PI versions of the London's, I bought them to improve the quality of my files, and in order to have them before they moved on to $100/disk... ::)

Hirsch on the Hammerflügel doing 6 sonatas from <> 1774. OK, this was a variety thing, an indulgence if you will. I have Brautigam, Oort and Schornsheim in these works now, and am quite satisfied. I guess I just love saying "Hammerflügel"... ;D

This is a lovely disk, Nuria Rial singing a group of "insert" (replacement) arias that Haydn composed for Lucia Pollzelli (his mistress in Esterhazy). I just listened to this last night for the first time. Very nice, and rarely recorded pieces too. It was common practice at that time when an opera was to be given and the composer was far away, for a local composer to replace any tunes that didn't suit the singers' voices with ones that did. Pollzelli didn't have the greatest voice int he world on terms of range, and since he wanted her to be in all the operas, Haydn ended up doing quite a few replacements. :) Nice disk, in any case.

And finally, his first oratorio, The Return of Tobias. On a Biblical theme, as was typical of the time (1775). He actually composed this as a membership fee to the Composer's Society in Vienna and gave it to them as a gift. They presented it a few times and actually made some nice income from it, and then it got put away. Very few recordings exist (only 2 that I know of), and the other one is in the Big Box. According to the reviews, it is probably the worst performance in the box. So this 5* performance (PI) on Naxos was a no-brainer. I will have some expanded reviews, probably after the holiday madness has diminished. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 11, 2009, 03:09:30 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 11, 2009, 08:16:54 AM
Here is another list of recent acquisitions. It is a great pleasure for me to be able to get my hands on some of these disks of harder to find music.

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/28/281954.JPG)

The Hacker nocturnes are a period instrument version of the 8 nocturnes for lira organizatte, but they are NOT the original version for the King of Naples; they are the version that Haydn reorchestrated version for flute and oboe that Haydn himself did so he could take them to London in 1791. These 8 works are also available by L'Archibudelli, which are on a single disk. It is interesting to note that the overall length is 38 minutes longer on the Hacker version, which I guess must be attributed to repeats. I will be pleased when this shows up (it's in the mail still) so I can check that.

8)

Now I understand why I couldn't recognize them in the L'archibudelli and Consortium classicum renderings (different instrumentations). Do you mean the lire organizzate is replaced by flute and oboe? There's also a prominent clarinet part (retained in all versions ?)

I got to learn the Nocturnes through the Hacker versions on LP, but have not heard them for at least 15 years. How many versions are there ??

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 11, 2009, 04:24:07 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 11, 2009, 08:16:54 AM

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/28/281954.JPG) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/511BTXR6n2L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Where did you find those Nocturnes, Gurn? :o

BTW, that Oratorio on Naxos is exceptional. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 11, 2009, 04:41:25 PM

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on December 11, 2009, 03:09:30 PM
Now I understand why I couldn't recognize them in the L'archibudelli and Consortium classicum renderings (different instrumentations). Do you mean the lire organizzate is replaced by flute and oboe? There's also a prominent clarinet part (retained in all versions ?)

I got to learn the Nocturnes through the Hacker versions on LP, but have not heard them for at least 15 years. How many versions are there ??

Scoring of the Naples version: 2 lira, 2 clarinets, 2 horns, 2 violas and bass (usually cello). They were composed in 1788-89, and there were 9 of them, but only 8 survive. In 1791-92, for the first London visit, Haydn rescored at least 5 of them (27, 28, 29, 31 & 32) by removing the 2 lira and replacing them with a flute and oboe (2 flutes in #32) and 2 violins in place of the 2 clarinets. He also rewrote and strengthened the bass line by adding a separate part for a double bass.

By odd coincidence, the leaders of the 3 groups that I know that perform these works (Hacker, Neidich (with Mozzafiato joining L'Archibudelli) and Klocker, of course) are all clarinetists. Klocker wouldn't have needed to lose his clarinet in the Naples versions that they perform, but I can't imagine Hacker or Neidich doing so anyway. Anyway, that should be arriving any day now, so we'll see.... :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Marsolais (Horn) / Jalbert (Piano) - Beethoven Op 17 Sonata in F for Horn & Piano 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 11, 2009, 04:44:17 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 11, 2009, 04:24:07 PM
Where did you find those Nocturnes, Gurn? :o

BTW, that Oratorio on Naxos is exceptional. :)

Antoine,
Amazingly, they were at Amazon Marketplace, advertised as "Like new", for $15. :o :o I've been looking at them for a long time hoping to get them for under $25!

I have read that in several places, that this is a great performance. This weekend I will find out, when I have 3 uninterrupted hours to sit and listen. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Marsolais (Horn) / Jalbert (Piano) - Czerny Op. Posth. Andante e Polacca for Horn & Piano 2nd mvmt - Polacca

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 11, 2009, 04:59:16 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 11, 2009, 04:44:17 PM
Antoine,
Amazingly, they were at Amazon Marketplace, advertised as "Like new", for $15. :o :o I've been looking at them for a long time hoping to get them for under $25!

I have read that in several places, that this is a great performance. This weekend I will find out, when I have 3 uninterrupted hours to sit and listen. :)

Excellent, Gurn; I am really happy for you, great find.

BTW, it is just my idea or you also own those Nocturnes by Manfred Huss and his Vienna Haydn Sinfonietta. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 11, 2009, 05:04:54 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 11, 2009, 04:59:16 PM
Excellent, Gurn; I am really happy for you, great find.

BTW, it is just my idea or you also own those Nocturnes by Manfred Huss and his Vienna Haydn Sinfonietta. :)

No, I don't have the Huss nocturnes. I didn't buy the "Music for the King of Naples etc" box because I already had all the music except those nocturnes on the original Koch/Schwann disks, and I had then 2 versions of the nocturnes, now 3 versions. I would be delighted to have them though, and if eClassical puts them out in 320kbps I will snap them up, as opposed to buying the whole box for $60 and duplicating everything else...

I DO, however, have the Huss "5 Concertos for Lira" (London Version) disk. It is splendid! :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Marsolais (Horn) / Jalbert (Piano) - Ries Op 34 Sonata in F for Horn & Piano 1st mvmt - Larghetto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 11, 2009, 06:13:32 PM

Gurn reigns as Master of the Haus :). What would we (I) do without all that fascinating background information?

I tend to delve into anecdotical detail (operatic esp.) (or stylistic-orchestral - when it comes to Bruckner esp. ;D ,) but am quite challenged to figure out what happened before 1790, relying on memory and intuition. Reminds me of that fatal mistake in the movie An American Werewolf in London where the hero ventures onto the wrong path under a full moon...

Right now: listening to sonata 59 (Hob16:49) with Christine Schornsheim. The lady plays a Broadwood. Personally I prefer Hamelin's probing rendition (and his instrument as well). Listen to the big minor key episode in the slow movement (3 minutes in). It' arresting but perfectly integrated with Hamelin. With Schornshheim it's perfectly integrated too, but in a much more generic way. It sounds gluckian (with all that entails) with Schornsheim. Perhaps she's got a point there, but I guess it all depends on how you hear certain passages.

Emotionally, Haydn's mid-to-late sonatas bypass Mozart's emotional outpourings (being of a different generation they didn't have the same prods and outlets). They retain earlier Sturm un Drang features but hark ahead (is that a term?) to Beethoven's early sonatas, esp. 4-10. That is especially apparent when one listens to LvB interpretations by the likes of Yves Nat, Perahia, or Brendel.

Conclusion: there's a lot more to Haydn sonatas (and quartets) than their usual 'warm up' status im concerts would tend to indicate. Some 35 years later :o, I vividly remember what I thought of a Haydn work when it was programmed at the beginning of a concert (insert the ol' 'rolling eyes' emoticon here - dammit, I want them back!!!).

Yes Ma'am, the times they are a'changing - and that's all to the good.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 11, 2009, 06:26:59 PM

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on December 11, 2009, 06:13:32 PM
Gurn reigns as Master of the Haus :). What would we (I) do without all that fascinating background information?

I tend to delve into anecdotical detail (operatic esp.) (or stylistic-orchestral - when it comes to Bruckner esp. ;D ,) but am quite challenged to figure out what happened before 1790, relying on memory and intuition. Reminds me of that fatal mistake in the movie An American Werewolf in London where the hero ventures onto the wrong path under a full moon...

:-\

I think I am one of those obsessive/compulsive people when it comes to detail. Not sure how fond I am of that trait in myself but there you have it. :D

QuoteRight now: listening to sonata 59 (Hob16:49) with Christine Schornsheim. The lady plays a Broadwood. Personally I prefer Hamelin's probing rendition (and his instrument as well). Listen to the big minor key episode in the slow movement (3 minutes in). It' arresting but perfectly integrated with Hamelin. With Schornshheim it's perfectly integrated too, but in a much more generic way. It sounds gluckian (with all that entails) with Schornsheim. Perhaps she's got a point there, but I guess it all depends on how you hear certain passages.

Emotionally, Haydn's mid-to-late sonatas bypass Mozart's emotional outpourings (being of a different generation they didn't have the same prods and outlets). They retain earlier Sturm un Drang features but hark ahead (is that a term?) to Beethoven's early sonatas, esp. 4-10. That is especially apparent when one listens to LvB interpretations by the likes of Yves Nat, Perahia, or Brendel.

Conclusion: there's a lot more to Haydn sonatas (and quartets) than their usual 'warm up' status im concerts would tend to indicate. Some 35 years later :o, I vividly remember what I thought of a Haydn work when it was programmed at the beginning of a concert (insert the ol' 'rolling eyes' emoticon here - dammit, I want them back!!!).

Yes Ma'am, the times they are a'changing - and that's all to the good.

Yes, late Haydn sonatas and piano trios can be very difficult to get a handle on in terms of what the intent of the composer was. Were they really fiery and con brio? Or where they "salon-esque"? Or somewhere in between? I like Brautigam's renditions of the London sonatas, which are far more con fuego than Schornsheim's, yet when I listen to hers, she manages somehow to convince me that her approach has equal validity. This is even more true in the earlier ones, where she even got me to enjoy Haydn on the harpsichord! :o :o There is enough substance to this music that different approaches don't do it any harm, they leave it dependent upon the essential nature of the listener to find what is right for him/herself. And really, that is the essence of Classicism; it depended on the listener to be an equal partner with the composer and performer in appreciating the music. Something that got lost in the eras that followed. :-\

PS - Lilas, go to your profile and select the "Classic" smiley set. You will get back all your favorites, even this one ::)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Marsolais (Horn) / Jalbert (Piano) - Moscheles WoO Theme & Variations on an Album Leaf by Rossini

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on December 11, 2009, 10:19:08 PM

Quote from: Herman on December 11, 2009, 01:01:23 AM
The Auryn Qt has no Viennese roots whatsoever. I believe two of its members are from northern Germany, and two from Britain. In their training they haven't been particularly Vienna-oriented either.

I thought you knew I meant Viennese figuratively! ::) ??? ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on December 11, 2009, 11:22:01 PM

The Alberni Quartet Op.76 (Collins Classics):

A day after my big "epiphany",...ha!... the Alberni arrived, a 1990 recording that comes with a dynamic warning,... oh goody! Perhaps there is a soul out there who remembers the handsome,...er,hmmm...slip case for the box. All I can say is, it's very late-'80s pastels, very precious.

So, what does this semi-forgotten (I seem to recall Britten on CRD) band sound like? I have been so caught up in the ultra polished sound of those other two, that I might have been unconsciously prejudging the Albernis. I looked inside the booklet. Original Instruments have their own credits!!! Is this going to be HIP??? Oh, the,...

ok, it's like this. The Albernis appear to play just as well as both the Auryn and the ABQ (yes, I just noticed all the "A"s, too, haha). The inhabit a world at once a beautiful compromise between the Auryn and the ABQ (many of eithers' strengths, without their weaknesses), and then also with an added inspired touch of their own, with a gentle playfulness that is different than the Auryns. Added on to this the sound of the,...trumpets please!... Original Instruments

Strad 'The Maurin', Cremona 1718
Ruggieri, Cremona 1695
Maggini, Brecia c1600
Grancino, Milan 1706

which, as evidenced here, are a pure delight in their mellowness and the warm fuzzy hazy buzz they give off is charming to my ears. I take it then that the Alberni are NOT trying to HIP the thing, I mean, they seem to play the things very similarly to both of the traditionally modern groups. I don't know what you call this back in 1990. I mean, the Lindsays also play on supposedly GreatOldInstruments, and yet that doesn't give them any street cred with the HIPsters (you ain't down!, you ain't down!). The Albernis' "buzz" seems to indicate to me gut strings. What else produces THAT sound?

Anyhow, the Albernis HAVE a "sound",... and...I like it. I would love for someone to talk to me about this because it is a little confusing. The "effect" the Albernis produce makes me think HIP, but the playing is so natural that I hear the music as natural, and not HIP per se, but at the same time there appears to me an indescribable, old fashioned feel to the sound texture, though the playing has no exaggerations in the HIP sense. So, is there a name for this kind of interpretation, or is it just an honest interpretaion on old instruments? Plus, the recording lends a real cozy, homey feel that takes the whole effect over the roof. It really grows on you.

The cello is most graciously enveloped here than in the other two versions, I thought. Especially in the ABQ, the cellist was very POW!!! in the recording, but here, perhaps again it is the strings, but the cellist is perfectly cast.

I would compare the Albernis more with the feminine Auryn rather than with the masculine ABQ, but even here we have felicities. Though the Auryn probably catch more humorous moments, the Alberni also bring out many touches in an individual way. Ultimately, all three groups have a very very similar approach, which is to place a premium on beauty of tone. The Albernis string sound is totally different, but the playing is the same, to a degree.

The Albernis appear mellow, but they are rhythmically alert, so it appears that you are in a way getting the best of both worlds here. I'm afraid this is ust making me want to get something completely different here, like the Tatrai. I just want to hear a completely different way of playing.

The BOTTOM LINE is that the Albernis are quite a classy bunch. Intonation, ensemble, unique sound and personality, are all in attendence. They have an especially unique sound that I find quite appealing, a certain tinge of authenticity that brings so much charm to the table. Very surprised and pleased.

The Albernis appear to have been the Lindsays from across town. Their leader, Howard Davis, apparently a great teacher, died in 2008. They continue on, having had I believe the same line-up since 1961 (I could be wrong)! Rawsthorne wrote his No.3 for them!

Good show for the Alberni Quartet! 8)

So, I don't know what to make of the "concept" here: Original Instruments with natural playing. It sounds HIP, it doesn't sound HIP. But I like it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on December 12, 2009, 07:12:41 AM

Well, presuming HIP would have to sound "unnatural" and with "exeggerations", and without a "warm, fuzzy hazy buzz" would be missing the point - entirely. IMHO. 0:)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 12, 2009, 07:37:17 AM

Quote from: Que on December 12, 2009, 07:12:41 AM
Well, presuming HIP would have to sound "unnatural" and with "exaggerations", and without a "warm, fuzzy hazy buzz" would be missing the point - entirely. IMHO. 0:)

Q

Kinda sorta makes you wonder who's been whispering in his ear, dunnit? ::)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 12, 2009, 07:57:37 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 12, 2009, 07:37:17 AM
Kinda sorta makes you wonder who's been whispering in his ear, dunnit? ::)

Sometimes you make me use my Urban Dictionary, Gurn. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on December 12, 2009, 08:00:58 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 12, 2009, 07:57:37 AM
Sometimes you make me use my Urban Dictionary, Gurn. ;)

Yeah... Slangmeister Blanston in da House!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on December 12, 2009, 08:09:58 AM

Quote from: Que on December 12, 2009, 07:12:41 AM
Well, presuming HIP would have to sound "unnatural" and with "exeggerations", and without a "warm, fuzzy hazy buzz" would be missing the point - entirely. IMHO. 0:)

Q

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 12, 2009, 07:37:17 AM
Kinda sorta makes you wonder who's been whispering in his ear, dunnit? ::)

8)

But...so...uh...are the Alberni being HIP here?

I mean, I'm not bashing, just asking. They "sound" like a "normal" (get the lawyer) group, with judicious vibrato and everything. Does their instrumental sound make them HIP here, or, are they just "normies" who decided to play Original Instruments because they were available?

All I'm saying is, the Alberni don't sound like Fabio Biondi's group, that's for sure, but they doooo appropriate the "sound" of the KittyKat strings, so, I'm just asking what kind of category are they in? They sound like the Salomon, but play like the ABQ. How does this compare with what the Buchbergers are doing (maybe not a good question)?

You guys! :-*

Quote from: jlaurson on December 12, 2009, 08:00:58 AM
Yeah... Slangmeister Blanston in da House!

Woot woot!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 12, 2009, 08:40:01 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 12, 2009, 07:57:37 AM
Sometimes you make me use my Urban Dictionary, Gurn. ;)

Oh, sorry, been talking with my Brit friends. Damn, they're worse than us Texans. (dunnit? = doesn't it?)

:D

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Hans Ludwig Hirsch - Hob 16 21 Sonata in C for Keyboard 1st mvmt - Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 12, 2009, 08:45:48 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on December 12, 2009, 08:09:58 AM
But...so...uh...are the Alberni being HIP here?

I mean, I'm not bashing, just asking. They "sound" like a "normal" (get the lawyer) group, with judicious vibrato and everything. Does their instrumental sound make them HIP here, or, are they just "normies" who decided to play Original Instruments because they were available?

All I'm saying is, the Alberni don't sound like Fabio Biondi's group, that's for sure, but they doooo appropriate the "sound" of the KittyKat strings, so, I'm just asking what kind of category are they in? They sound like the Salomon, but play like the ABQ. How does this compare with what the Buchbergers are doing (maybe not a good question)?

You guys! :-*

Woot woot!

Well, snipper, I've never heard (of) them so I don't know. If they are using period instruments (old doesn't mean "period"; shorter, flatter necks on the fiddles, lower bridges and gut strings are a closer approximation), and they do things like catch all the repeats, use a moderate amount of vibrato (no vibrato = bullshit), and avoid things like portamento and big slides, and are usually more articulated than legato, then I would say that they are at least trying to approximate historic accuracy. Of course, I'm no expert, it's one of those things that you know it when you see/hear it. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Hans Ludwig Hirsch - Hob 16 21 Sonata in C for Keyboard 2nd mvmt - Adagio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 12, 2009, 10:20:52 AM

An interesting –and very cheap- CD dedicated to different dances of Haydn's time. Below a complete review with some details on this recording:

Haydn: Zingarese. Ländler. Nocturnes
Ensemble Bella Musica de Vienne
Michael Dittrich
harmonia mundi 1981, 2006
AAD

Tracklist:
Huit Zingarese Hob. IX:28
Länder des "Saisons"
Cinq Contredanses, Quadrille, Menuet Hob. IX:29 & 24
Minuetti da Ballo 1-6 H. 9:4
Notturni per due flauti e due corni Hob. II:D5
Six Danses allemandes H. IX:12

Total Time: 45'45

Review:

The re-release of Michael Dittrich and the Ensemble Bella Musica de Vienne's Harmonia Mundi disc Haydn: Zingarese -- Ländler -- Nocturnes in the spruced up Musique d'abord series returns to the catalog an important album that has not been available in a long time. Recorded in 1980, Haydn: Zingarese -- Ländler -- Nocturnes was popular as an LP and was featured in the soundtrack of the Austrian telefilm Maria Theresia. The compact disc version of this album was one of the first CDs made by Harmonia Mundi, but it was short-lived; the cassette version of the album issued along with the LP was at one point easier to find than the CD. Public radio stations in the United States avidly program material from Haydn: Zingarese -- Ländler -- Nocturnes with some regularity as end-of-the-hour filler, and some have jealously guarded their vinyl LP copies of the album for want of a compact disc version.

At the time Haydn: Zingarese -- Ländler -- Nocturnes was made, the Ensemble Bella Musica de Vienne was barely two years old. Dittrich founded the ensemble with the idea of applying period practice to Viennese "light" music, a move that his contemporaries in Vienna hardly felt was necessary, as performance practices among Viennese dance orchestras have changed so little in the time that Johann Strauss II was still pumping out waltzes one right after another. Nevertheless, Dittrich was right -- a significant difference between Viennese performance traditions established under "Johann II," and those that preceded him. Natural horns are used, as are wooden flutes and a cimbalom in the Zingarese, played expertly by Martha Fabian. With its driving Verbunkos rhythm and glittering cimbalom, this represents Viennese dance music at its most arcane, but manages to be dramatically compelling, gleefully intoxicating, and evocative of what gypsy music must have sounded like in the court toward the end of the eighteenth century. The remainder of the dances are equally enjoyable, if not exotic, but the imitation of a hurdy-gurdy in the last of the Minuetti da Ballo 1-6, Hob. IX: 4, is another detail of which one takes notice apart from the rest.

The one slight problem with Haydn: Zingarese -- Ländler -- Nocturnes is that Franz Josef Haydn did not write the Zingarese. It is not even a question as to whether or not this attribution to Haydn is "uncertain" or "doubtful"; according to those best equipped to know, Haydn did not write it -- period. The Zingarese appears in a print dated 1800 under Haydn's name, but literally hundreds of other prints from that time having nothing to do with Haydn likewise bear an ascription to him -- Haydn was so popular that publishers of the day put Haydn's name on everything. Although Harmonia Mundi could easily have revised the notes to accommodate this information, which is not new, it either decided not to deliberately or somehow missed the opportunity. Haydn: Zingarese -- Ländler -- Nocturnes is a great disc, and one should not hesitate to seek it out and enjoy it. Just bear in mind that Haydn did not compose the Zingarese, and you should be fine. ~ Uncle Dave Lewis, All Music Guide

Images of the original cover (dated 1981) and the current cover (from 2006).

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 12, 2009, 10:31:18 AM

A very good choice, Antoine. I have that disk, to my considerable enjoyment. And FWIW, while it is very true that the Zingarese (Hungarian Dance) is not by Haydn, it is nonetheless a pleasure to hear, whoever wrote it. :)

One thing I would like to know from anyone who might have a handle on it; are there other disks of Haydn dances out there? I have Dorati's "24 Minuets" (Hob IX:16), and then I have found a few others in piano transcription. But that not only doesn't cover all of them, but certainly doesn't satisfy like the disk that Antoine mentions. I think Hob. VIII (Marches) and IX (Dances) are among the most ignored part of his output. Pity really, since with my other favorite composers (Mozart, Beethoven & Schubert) these are among my favorite little gems and I'm sure they would be with Haydn too. :'(

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Hans Ludwig Hirsch - Hob 16 22 Sonata in E for Keyboard 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 12, 2009, 10:53:15 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 12, 2009, 10:31:18 AM
One thing I would like to know from anyone who might have a handle on it; are there other disks of Haydn dances out there? I have Dorati's "24 Minuets" (Hob IX:16), and then I have found a few others in piano transcription. But that not only doesn't cover all of them, but certainly doesn't satisfy like the disk that Antoine mentions. I think Hob. VIII (Marches) and IX (Dances) are among the most ignored part of his output. Pity really, since with my other favorite composers (Mozart, Beethoven & Schubert) these are among my favorite little gems and I'm sure they would be with Haydn too. :'(

Those numbers have been very neglected by the discography indeed. I only know about the existence of one additional recording: a CPO disc (Capella Istropolitana/Peter Gurth), which unfortunately covers the same minuets recorded by Dorati. :(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 12, 2009, 11:40:23 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 12, 2009, 10:53:15 AM
Those numbers have been very neglected by the discography indeed. I only know about the existence of one additional recording: a CPO disc (Capella Istropolitana/Peter Gurth), which unfortunately covers the same minuets recorded by Dorati. :(

Ah, I hadn't even seen that one, but the Dorati is really very good for its time, so replacing it is low on my list. I have also found various disks of mixed marches that will have 1 or 2 Haydn works on them (usually, the one he wrote for the Royal Society of Musicians, IIRC). Well, if we weren't treated to these this year, when will we ever be? :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on December 12, 2009, 12:45:10 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on December 11, 2009, 11:22:01 PM
I looked inside the booklet. Original Instruments have their own credits!!! Is this going to be HIP??? Oh, the,...

ok, it's like this. The Albernis appear to play just as well as both the Auryn and the ABQ (yes, I just noticed all the "A"s, too, haha). The inhabit a world at once a beautiful compromise between the Auryn and the ABQ (many of eithers' strengths, without their weaknesses), and then also with an added inspired touch of their own, with a gentle playfulness that is different than the Auryns. Added on to this the sound of the,...trumpets please!... Original Instruments

Strad 'The Maurin', Cremona 1718
Ruggieri, Cremona 1695
Maggini, Brecia c1600
Grancino, Milan 1706

Snips, vintage instruments doesn't mean HIP. Heifetz had a 1742 Guarneri and he sure wasn't playin' HIP styles.

I haven't researched this, but I assume most HIP players use modern copies, since there aren't enough instuments to go around.

The famous Strad and Guarneri fiddles and cellos big name musicians can afford (if they aren't loaned to them) have all been refitted to meet modern demands.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on December 12, 2009, 03:22:10 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 12, 2009, 08:45:48 AM
Well, snipper, I've never heard (of) them so I don't know. If they are using period instruments (old doesn't mean "period"; shorter, flatter necks on the fiddles, lower bridges and gut strings are a closer approximation), and they do things like catch all the repeats, use a moderate amount of vibrato (no vibrato = bullshit), and avoid things like portamento and big slides, and are usually more articulated than legato, then I would say that they are at least trying to approximate historic accuracy. Of course, I'm no expert, it's one of those things that you know it when you see/hear it. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Hans Ludwig Hirsch - Hob 16 21 Sonata in C for Keyboard 2nd mvmt - Adagio

Quote from: Herman on December 12, 2009, 12:45:10 PM
Snips, vintage instruments doesn't mean HIP. Heifetz had a 1742 Guarneri and he sure wasn't playin' HIP styles.

I haven't researched this, but I assume most HIP players use modern copies, since there aren't enough instuments to go around.

The famous Strad and Guarneri fiddles and cellos big name musicians can afford (if they aren't loaned to them) have all been refitted to meet modern demands.

In the bold, you both pointed to HIP being not an "instrument" issue, but a "fittings" issue (as far as the instruments per se are concerned), which makes the best sense to me. Now I understand? I'm also curious about Herman's underlined point.

Do the Alberni fit the bill? According to what I've underlined in Gurn's statement,... well, the vibrato's the thing here,... I mean, WHAT IS "natural"? They just sound "natural", like you, me, or Haydn would say, Hey guys, soundin' good!

One of my probs is the idea that if Haydn heard, say, the Kodaly's version of Op.77 (which is pretty straighforwardly beautiful, as far as things go, I think), that he wouldn't just be overjoyed that his music was being made to sound like angels with angelic instruments,... I mean, to Haydn's ears, of course. What WOULD Haydn's reaction to the ABQ be? Would he say, They sound TOO good? Or would he cry tears of joy at the sheer beauty of sound? I get the feeling we (whomever "we" are, haha) act as though we know how Haydn would react to different performances of his music.

My theory is is that people like Haydn or Beethoven would have welcomed the innovations of the last 200 years. I would really really really like to know what they would say about about HIP vs. Modern. What if Haydn himself preferred the Kodaly?

I'm not laying any judgment, I'm just curious about the discussion. My next post will explain. I wish there was someone out there who could comment on the Alberni. When Gurn says, "I would say they are AT LEAST TRYING to historic accuracy." In that case, it really does sound to me that the Alberni are at least aware of, and thinking of, and I suppose (if they really are using gut strings (what else makes THAT sound, though?)) implementing HIP principles, even though, to my ears, their actual playing sounds as unobstrusively innocuous as anything could be, as if they aren't,...oh, I so get in trouble with my bad words choices, haha...

I don't know,... I need a cocoa break! Hold on...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on December 12, 2009, 03:54:30 PM

ok, you guys sent me over the cliff. Remember that LHQ I say at Border's the other day? Yea, haha, take about addiction principle!

LONDON HAYDN QUARTET OP.17

So, I'm sitting in the car after purchace, crackin it open, and all the ink that has been spilled over these guys is going through my head, and leading the way is Hurwitz's comment of no-vibrato being "lacerating". But, I'm on a mission, my inner Haydn crackhead has been awakened, and I MUST HAVE HIP HAYDN!!! :o :o :o

...throwing money at the problem...

So, I'm sitting there in the car, hands getting clammy, breathing... difficult...wrapper...hard...

air...air...AIR!!!

And finally, the first long held note of the c minor, and, and, and... and WHAAAT???

excuse me, Mr. Hurwitz, you have a problem with THIS???

My first reaction is is that I'm listening to a HIP quartet. After that, it's just pure delight, really. All the talk which has made me paranoid against them melts away. Of course, I've never even heard the music before, so, what do I know? How do the Festetics compare to this, I wonder? These guys aren't as extreme sounding to me as I had been led to believe. I'm on track 11 and it all sounds just fine now that I'm acclimated. Nothing sounds overtly bizarre. Yes, there is the no-vibrato, surgery laser intonation thing, but it's not really anything at all to my ears. It DOES sound like "old fashioned" music, but, hey, give me a break!

They certainly are inside every note.

Uh...I'm sold. Did I mention that as soon as got back to the house, I blindly ordered the Op.9? Yea, I turned zombie real quick, haha! Hey,...I wasn't possibly going to last through the weekend, haha.

So, I'm sitting here writing this, and listening to this really great, vibrant, full of life music that's really just a joy. Ah, now on to disc 2...

ahhh...wow, this E major SQ is 33mins.!!!

Well...guys...the mystery is over for me. I had been laboring under some fear there, and now, hearing this...gamble...well, I do think that it has payed off in spades! Anyone who is on the fence here, IMHO, should not hesitate. If you are a sensitive, mature listener, what can you lose?

If these guys are "extreme", or whatever, than so be it, but to my ears, Hurwitz's comments about thin, vinegary tone are absolutely his own personal problem. Pretty much, what-e-ver, Daveid.

You know, I keep hearing Op.20/5 sprinkled all throughout this set.

ok, now I want to sit with the cool kids in The Diner! ::) No,...uh, on second thought,... hold that, mayo!

Wow, I'm just thinking about all the ink in the last couple of months,...for this?...haha,...there is just so much fear out there. No sharks in this water, IMO.

In a way, the sound like a surgical Biondi unit, perhaps?

I say, this is "bracing" and "antiseptic" in the GOOD GOOD way. I makes me feel April fresh! I like it, you will too!

Vroom vroom, party starta!!! 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on December 12, 2009, 04:19:44 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on December 12, 2009, 03:22:10 PM
In the bold, you both pointed to HIP being not an "instrument" issue, but a "fittings" issue (as far as the instruments per se are concerned), which makes the best sense to me. Now I understand?

HIP with a violin is not a matter of the age of the instrument (the instrument's body, to be precise), but primarily the bow and the strings (gut strings). And it's a matter of the angles of the strings/fingerboard/neck. The bridge was lower (generally speaking) and thicker, the fingerboard was accordingly flatter, the neck shorter and at the same angle as the violin's body.

(http://www.themonteverdiviolins.org/BOW.jpg)

There's a great website (where I found and from where I took above image) that gets you all the basics:

http://www.themonteverdiviolins.org/baroque-violin.html (http://www.themonteverdiviolins.org/baroque-violin.html)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 12, 2009, 04:52:40 PM

Synprrr - first, your posts are almost impossible to read - too long, too disjointed, and making no sense; please try to improve your editing and content (I've been a medical writer for 30+ years and you would be considered a disaster - can't imagine the amount of time that I would spend editing your manuscripts! ;) ;D)

Second, please try to be more specific in your comments and the questions that you want to address - this of course relates to the above comments.

Finally, HIP instrument playing as Jens alluded to is certainly open to question, debate, and various opinions. String instruments were being perfected in the Baroque period (Antonio Stradivari (1644-1737) lived then, as did others, so the issue is not the instrument (or modern reproductions), but different aspects of the playing, e.g. the use of 'pure' gut strings, the bows regarding their production, shapes, etc., and the ways that the instruments were played; there is likely no definitie answer to these questions, but in combination there is a difference of approach in performing these works.

And I must say that for many of these transitional compositions that may 'bridge' this era of different performance practices, I can enjoy either types of interpretation.

So take a deep breath, have a glass of wine (if you partake), and just listen; much is to be enjoyed regardless of how the performers want to play the music! Dave

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 12, 2009, 05:06:51 PM

Have I ever mentioned on this forum that I refuse to become a member of a performer worshiping cult of personality? If not, I apologize for the oversight. Just sayin'....

8)

----------------
Listening to:
New Dusseldorf Hofmusik / Utiger Christine Schornsheim - Hob 18 01 Concerto in C for Organ 1st mvmt - Moderato

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 12, 2009, 05:54:24 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 12, 2009, 05:06:51 PM
Listening to:
New Dusseldorf Hofmusik / Utiger Christine Schornsheim - Hob 18 01 Concerto in C for Organ 1st mvmt - Moderato

Are you enjoying that recording, Gurn? :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 12, 2009, 06:12:10 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 12, 2009, 05:54:24 PM
Are you enjoying that recording, Gurn? :)

Yes, actually. Just got it a couple days ago. I like the variety of instruments, a Schornsheim trademark, of course. The band plays pretty well too. Other than playing #4 on fortepiano instead of harpsichord (which does give the whole recording better balance), the instruments are correct for the works played, a rarity these days. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Ensemble Cristofori / Schoonderwoerd - 01 Wilms Op 3 Concerto in E for Fortepiano 1st mvmt - Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on December 12, 2009, 09:53:15 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on December 12, 2009, 04:52:40 PM
Synprrr - first, your posts are almost impossible to read - too long, too disjointed, and making no sense; please try to improve your editing and content (I've been a medical writer for 30+ years and you would be considered a disaster - can't imagine the amount of time that I would spend editing your manuscripts! ;) ;D)

Second, please try to be more specific in your comments and the questions that you want to address - this of course relates to the above comments.Dave

;D

uh... after looking over the last two posts, I think I can appreciate your concern! No, I noticed I wasn't too concerned about finishing sentences earlier today. I think I'm just exhausted from all this discovery lately. I will try to work on the synyaxtical grammatosis.

My main question surrounded the Alberni SQ, a "Modern" quartet playing Britten, who, on the surface of their Haydn recording, "sound" (in that gut string type way) just like a HIP group. Even their playing and attack kind of exhibit the HIP traits I hear in avowed HIP groups, though very mild. They certainly play with a normalish vibrato.

a) there is nothing that makes that "buzzy" sound other than the gut strings, no?

b) if the Alberni are indeed using gut strings, then is their playing really HIP influenced, as if this was to be a HIP project? It was recorded in 1990, after all. Perhaps HIPping it was the craze in 1990? Honestly, I'd maybe be willin to lend the Alberni to someone if that's what it takes to find out.

The Buchberger have the same "buzzy" sound (especially in the cello), but I thought they used regular strings? Do they get the buzzy sound from the no-vibrato held out chord (the proverbial Hurwitz "lacerating" effect)?

Basically, is it a free-for-all in HIP land? All groups basically "sound" the same because of the instrumental set-up used, but the actual playing can range from very mildly "informed" (like I hear in the Alberni), to balls out informed, a la Biondi's group, or the LHQ?

Honestly, it's late and I'm tired, so I know this post isn't going to make any sense either!

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 12, 2009, 05:06:51 PM
Have I ever mentioned on this forum that I refuse to become a member of a performer worshiping cult of personality? If not, I apologize for the oversight. Just sayin'....

The LHQ's reputation totally preceded them, but what I hear coming out of the speakers is just really glorious to listen to.

I was fully prepared to somehow SuperGlue the factory seal back on and return it to Borders if it sucked! I totally could have gone either way the moment I heard the first notes, but the LHQ weren't the purveyors of manic meyhem that I thought they might have been. I was genuinely pleasantly surprised.

I really think you'd like it, Gurn.

I don't think I would be a LHQ vs. Festetics guy in Opp. 9/17. I can already tell by the LHQ's clinical HIPness what I imagine the more "leisurely" Festetics would sound like (along with tuning down), and I can't wait for that day. The LHQ are snappy enough where a more leisurely approach might be also needed for compare. I can't imagine what this music sounds like with the Kodaly (sailing oceans of buttery vibrato, as Jens said, I think!).

Can't we all just get along? :'( :-* ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on December 12, 2009, 11:45:26 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on December 12, 2009, 04:52:40 PM
Synprrr - first, your posts are almost impossible to read - too long, too disjointed, and making no sense; please try to improve your editing and content (I've been a medical writer for 30+ years and you would be considered a disaster - can't imagine the amount of time that I would spend editing your manuscripts! ;) ;D)

Quote from: snyprrr on December 12, 2009, 09:53:15 PM
uh... after looking over the last two posts, I think I can appreciate your concern! No, I noticed I wasn't too concerned about finishing sentences earlier today. I think I'm just exhausted from all this discovery lately. I will try to work on the synyaxtical grammatosis.

It's not just a matter of the last few posts, Snips. People have been saying this for ages. DavidW, did on several occasions before he gave up on you, and I recall other posters (including myself) saying you're taxing other posters' patience with this habit of just dumping brain vomit and expecting, if not demanding, a response - even though your enthusiasm is appreciated. It should be possible to think first and then post. Other people do this too. Or you could edit your posts for clarity. I do that too, as you can tell.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on December 13, 2009, 12:06:01 AM

Quote from: Herman on December 12, 2009, 11:45:26 PM
It's not just a matter of the last few posts, Snips. People have been saying this for ages. DavidW, did on several occasions before he gave up on you, and I recall other posters (including myself) saying you're taxing other posters' patience with this habit of just dumping [thoughts] and expecting, if not demanding, a response - even though your enthusiasm is appreciated. It should be possible to think first and then post. Other people do this too. Or you could edit your posts for clarity. I do that too, as you can tell.

Just think of a puppy, 3 months old, with a brush tied to its tail, expressing itself in acrylic on a crumpled canvas. That helps me ignore the jumble of a form, when I don't ignore the post altogether. If nothing else, foam-at-the-mouth still beats "I have that recording. It cost me $X.xx. I haven't listened to it yet." -type of comments.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 13, 2009, 03:58:48 AM

Jens,
Amen to that last!

Herman,
You've always been an optimist... ;)

Snipper,
No, the Buchbergers play with gut strings, they are just not tuned down to 18th century tonal range (they are the modern A = 440 rather than A = 415-430).

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra / Ferenc Fricsay - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 1st mvmt - Allegro ma non troppo, un poco maestoso

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on December 13, 2009, 06:43:06 AM

Quote from: Herman on December 12, 2009, 11:45:26 PM
It's not just a matter of the last few posts, Snips. People have been saying this for ages. DavidW, did on several occasions before he gave up on you, and I recall other posters (including myself) saying you're taxing other posters' patience with this habit of just dumping brain vomit and expecting, if not demanding, a response - even though your enthusiasm is appreciated. It should be possible to think first and then post. Other people do this too. Or you could edit your posts for clarity. I do that too, as you can tell.

I'm sorry, but I can't quite understand what you're saying. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on December 13, 2009, 06:48:39 AM

I like Snyprrr's posts and ultra-enthusiasm. Doesn't mean I read every single word, all the time. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on December 13, 2009, 07:53:01 AM

Quote from: Brahmsian on December 13, 2009, 06:48:39 AM
I like Snyprrr's posts and ultra-enthusiasm. Doesn't mean I read every single word, all the time. :D

Does anyone think I want to go back and re-read my own page long posts to edit them?

Hahahahahahahaha :P...

I am but a Voice Crying in the Wilderness saying Let My CDs Go! My posts are not for your Wretched Fiddles, but for One Greater Who Comes After, Who Alone will be able to make sense of all my drivel!

Listen not to every word, lest you hear your own servant curse thee!

-Proverbs

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on December 13, 2009, 08:26:24 AM

Just as an aside.

I haven't heard Op.17 before, and I'm just tickled with this cd. I mean, this is that "transition" music, that Late-High-Post-Baroque-Rococco-S&D-pre/post period that everyone's so, excuse me, hip on. This is Haydn sounding closer to the more obviously "baroque" sounding FX Richter (whose SQs on AlphaProductions are a nice gap filler (and were supposedly written @1757)). Another very early SQ by GF Abel (1769) is all I have to round out the picture, and, the only other cds available for this stuff are by Boccherini (Op.2 (CPO), Op.8 (Dynamic), Apponyi sampler (OOP)) and Gassmann (OOP). Early Mozart, too, I guess.

I admit I love all the tangy HIP sounds on this recording, and, for me, the "extreme" HIPness adds to my pleasure. I like hearing that 'nnrrrrrw' of the gut strings, and the glittering colors that come with every nuanced bow stroke (the detail in this recording is fresco-like). Am I a Philistine for just glorying in the sound? I think it's because of my acclimation to non-vibrato through Xenakis (which is the only other place I've heard "that" sound).

Ha, now I've come to that point I come to in every post, where I can keep it short and sweet with two paragraphs, or turn on the afterburners for two more pages, haha. ok, guys, here's my new found self-control at work! caio...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on December 13, 2009, 08:39:43 AM

I totally forgot what I was going to post about!

What pops out initially in Op.17 for me are the finales of No.4 and No.6 and the menuetto of No.5. The two finales have extraordinary sections of what I would call gypsy music.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 13, 2009, 05:16:22 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 12, 2009, 10:31:18 AM
... since with my other favorite composers (Mozart, Beethoven & Schubert)...

The inclusion of Schubert on that list was surprising to me. My personal favorites: Bach, Haydn & Schubert or Brahms (I can't decide). :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 13, 2009, 05:22:09 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 13, 2009, 05:16:22 PM
The inclusion of Schubert on that list was surprising to me. My personal favorites: Bach, Haydn & Schubert or Brahms (I can't decide). :)

Really? I have always been a big Schubert fan, he wrote many of his works for me personally, so how could I feel otherwise? :)

Brahms is in my Top 6 too, of late composers he, Dvorak and Tchaikovsky pretty well round out my list. As for Bach, well, he is OK... ;D

8)

----------------
Listening to:
L'Orfeo Baroque Orchestra \ Gaigg Margot Oitzinger - Hob 32 01b Aria for Mezzo-soprano "Son pietosa, son bonina"

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on December 15, 2009, 01:55:23 AM

I have just started listening to my newly-arrived box set of the Mosaiques in the late quartets (op 64, 76, 77). This is the first time that I have listened to the Mosaiques and my listening is confined so far to Op 76/4 (the Sunrise), plus bits and pieces (mainly finales) of other Op76 works. Here are the first impressions (whilst they are still fresh).

In general, for the Sunrise, it was an enjoyable experience. Since I know this work quite well, it was very interesting to hear a new performance in a somewhat different style. The sound was quite striking, the balance was excellent, with very expressive playing at an unhurried tempo. However, there were a couple of things that struck me. To me, the Mosaiques seem to be big fans of rubato and employ it at almost every possible occasion. It is very common to hear a hesitation or slow start to many phrases. This becomes very noticable in the minuet, but being a dance movement this is acceptable for me, although I found it a little overdone. But in the final, the tempo and accents seemed to be all over the place, making the music hesitate, speed up, brake, continue, etc. I found it quite disconcerting and the finale did not sound at all like the traditional version that I am used to (Orlando Quartet). Instead of flowing naturally it seemed to be chopped into bits and pieces.

Did anyone else have the same impression or is it just me having trouble adapting to the MSQ's idiom ? I understand that the players come from one of Harnoncourt's orchestra's and I got the feeling that they were trying a new approach mainly because it was new and different .... like Harnoncourt often does (with varying success ...).

Another impression that I got, which was a lot more favourable, was of the incredible modernity and originality of some of the movements. Eg the finale of Op76/5. It was difficult to imagine that I was listening to Haydn. It was a revelation and sometimes quite startling .... absolutely fascinating.

Finally, I found that I really needed to listen in short periods; I could not listen to a full CD .... I needed a break between quartets. The sound of the MSQ is extremely clear and clean, but without vibrato it is a little aggressive which I found tiring for prolonged listening (via headphones). This is not a criticism ..... I am a HIP fan and I like a lean sound ..... I just needed a break before moving on ....

Looking forward to exploring the rest of the box .... especially the works I do not know.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on December 16, 2009, 08:13:57 AM

Quote from: alkan on December 15, 2009, 01:55:23 AM
I have just started listening to my newly-arrived box set of the Mosaiques in the late quartets (op 64, 76, 77). This is the first time that I have listened to the Mosaiques and my listening is confined so far to Op 76/4 (the Sunrise), plus bits and pieces (mainly finales) of other Op76 works. Here are the first impressions (whilst they are still fresh).

In general, for the Sunrise, it was an enjoyable experience. Since I know this work quite well, it was very interesting to hear a new performance in a somewhat different style. The sound was quite striking, the balance was excellent, with very expressive playing at an unhurried tempo. However, there were a couple of things that struck me. To me, the Mosaiques seem to be big fans of rubato and employ it at almost every possible occasion. It is very common to hear a hesitation or slow start to many phrases. This becomes very noticable in the minuet, but being a dance movement this is acceptable for me, although I found it a little overdone. But in the final, the tempo and accents seemed to be all over the place, making the music hesitate, speed up, brake, continue, etc. I found it quite disconcerting and the finale did not sound at all like the traditional version that I am used to (Orlando Quartet). Instead of flowing naturally it seemed to be chopped into bits and pieces.

Did anyone else have the same impression or is it just me having trouble adapting to the MSQ's idiom ? I understand that the players come from one of Harnoncourt's orchestra's and I got the feeling that they were trying a new approach mainly because it was new and different .... like Harnoncourt often does (with varying success ...).

Another impression that I got, which was a lot more favourable, was of the incredible modernity and originality of some of the movements. Eg the finale of Op76/5. It was difficult to imagine that I was listening to Haydn. It was a revelation and sometimes quite startling .... absolutely fascinating.

Finally, I found that I really needed to listen in short periods; I could not listen to a full CD .... I needed a break between quartets. The sound of the MSQ is extremely clear and clean, but without vibrato it is a little aggressive which I found tiring for prolonged listening (via headphones). This is not a criticism ..... I am a HIP fan and I like a lean sound ..... I just needed a break before moving on ....

Looking forward to exploring the rest of the box .... especially the works I do not know.

Just yesterday I was at a "good" computer, and heard some of the Mosaiques Op.76.

I don't know if it was the computer sound, but the recording sounded just slightly fierce at high climaxes. I don't recall the Op.20 recording to have this problem, so maybe it was bad computer sound. That "orchestral" halo that I remember from Op.20 was here, too, but maybe not as pronounced (once again, can't totally tell on computer speakers).

The next thing I noticed was the ensemble sound, and ensemble playing. At the time, I was comparing with the Alberni, and the QM do have a much more adamant attack, such as I heard with the ABQ. Tempos were a little more relaxed than with the Alberni (who, by comparison, are quite fleet in Prestos), though, at surprising moments, the QM can turn the afterburners on.

76/4, the "Sunrise", seemed pretty equal betwixt the two versions, but, my now current favorite, 76/6, receives, in my view, a treatment slightly different than the rest of the QM's interpretations. I think this is the best 76/6 I've heard so far (Kodaly, QM, ABQ, Alberni, Amadeus, Auryn). The first two mvmts. are pretty low key, and most people play them similarly (though, the slow mvmt. can have a 2min. variation, either way); but, in the quicksilver Menuetto, the QM dig in like ticks, so one can hear the wood of their attack. They are by far the most exciting here (the ABQ are just as solid, but with a slight aggressiveness that the QM doesn't have/need). And, from the first notes of the Finale, the QM continue their digging in on the attack. Here, too, the ABQ are the only others who dig into their attack like this.

By comparison, the Alberni are very feminine indeed (no offence :D). Their attack is softer, but, if they do not dig like the others, they still emphasize other things. As with LvB interpretations, many groups do very well, and the only differences are differences of personal taste, and not a question of good or bad.

So, the big revelation for me was the QM's 76/6.

The QM's manly attack contined from the first three emphatic chords of 76/3, the "Emperor". The Alberni are much softer here, too, though they are by no means discounted.

Whilst on YouTube, I sampled a bunch of openings from 76/2. the "Fifths". What a riot it is to hear those first 30secs done by a variety of professional and amateur groups. One sees how Haydn's music does need some, mmm, TLC. One anonymous group was quite rough, whereas a clip by the Brentano was pretty perfect. The QM here are quite "woody", which is the first really "rustic" performance I've heard. Both the Auryn and the Alberni are much more the last word in refinement, meaning, their string sound. The QM impressed me mightily here, especially the way they handled the Major Key melody that comes right on the heels of the main theme (the sort of chirpy, whistle-y melody). I didn't hear the "witch's minuet", but, I can imagine the QM nail this too.

I had wanted to hear the QM's Op.76, and, I'm quite impressed. There are certain aspects of their "sound" that I'm not totally on board with (which would definitely require a better sound system than a computer), which is the same prob I had with their Op.20, but they certainly have reams to offer here in interpretive delights. Ha, they are certainly not as all-consumingly HIP as the LondonHaydnQuartet. I DID hear a squiggum of vibrato here and there, haha!

Uh, I just noticed I wrote another page long post. Sorry, guys! :-[ :P ::) ??? 8) :-*

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on December 17, 2009, 02:00:50 AM

As I continue my exploration of the QM's Op 76 set, I came across Op 76/6 for the first time ..... it is absolutely amazing. So modern sounding and original .... I could hardly believe that it was written by Haydn. The slow movement is mind-blowing .... you never know what harmony is coming next. It is a constant string of surprises, one after another ...... wonderful. And I think that the sharper, leaner and cleaner sound from the QM really adds to the unreal atmosphere.

I listened again to the Sunrise, and whilst I am starting to appreciate the QM's interpretation a bit more, I still find it to be the weakest of their Op76 set. I would have liked a faster tempo and a springier first movement (after the sun has risen ...), and I still have my doubts about the tempo changes and rubato in the finale. But it is aways instructive and interesting to her a different interpretation to the one you are familiar with, and the quality of the playing and the sound is absolutely first class.

Finally, the whirling gipsy dance finale of Op76/5 is tremendous (starting to run out of superlatives ....), and the attack and precision of the QM, plus the HIP sound makes this incredibly exciting.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on December 17, 2009, 02:03:56 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on December 16, 2009, 08:13:57 AM
I didn't hear the "witch's minuet", but, I can imagine the QM nail this too.

They do !! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on December 17, 2009, 08:16:17 AM

The QM began in the early '90s, right?

I remember their Astree covers. I've seen Op.20 available as two, old, cds, another, old, box (with painting of four wigs playing a quartet). and, finally, the new box with the person in country garb on the cover.

I notice Op.76 has a date of 2000 on Amazon. There is a 76 by itself, and then a box with 64/76/77. Was 76 really only released in 2000, with the new styled cover?

I have found Opp. 20, 33, & 51 (7 Last Words) in the "old" packaging. Does Op.76 really only come in the new styled covers?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: rubio on December 19, 2009, 07:45:59 AM

Anybody here heard Münchinger's Haydn? This cheap release seems very interesting to me.

http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Symphonies-Nos-88-101/dp/B0002JZ2B6/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1261239514&sr=1-11

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41PYGEFGSZL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Todd on December 19, 2009, 07:51:49 AM

I've now worked my way through 31 discs worth of the cycle, and I must say that I am most pleased with the purchase. As with the Adam Fischer cycle, one gains an appreciation of Haydn's mastery of the symphony. He wrote literally dozens of extremely fine and great examples. Once one gets into the 50s or so, it goes from solid work (or better) to solid work (or better). Of course, by the time one gets to the Paris symphonies, there are more choices out there. I can't say that Davies supersedes the likes of Bernstein or Harnoncourt or even Marriner (whose Paris symphonies I adore), but they are quite good. The Bear is most enjoyable, and the 86th is possibly the best I've heard. Also very impressive are the Chunnel symphonies (those between the Paris and London symphonies). The only issue so far was a case of the digital skips, appropriately during Il Distratto, though it was no big deal.

Overall playing style is the same – generally brisk fast movements, somewhat leisurely slow movement, and tons of polish. Sound varies a bit, but overall remains decidedly modern.

Now on to the London Symphonies.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 19, 2009, 08:00:25 AM

Thanks for the update, Todd. I've read some other reviews, a couple of which mentioned some brutal editing in places, but which generally emulated your response. One thing I don't need is more Haydn symphonies, but I hope some others here might find them finally attractive enough to take the plunge. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
La Petite Bande / Sigiswald Kuijken - Hob 01 096 Symphony in D 3rd mvmt - Menuetto - Trio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on December 19, 2009, 10:48:13 AM

Question about baryton trios...............are they string trios or keyboard trios? (or a mixture)

(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/brilliantclassics93907.jpg)

I still have my eye on this Brilliant boxset with many sales now on...........

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 19, 2009, 11:13:21 AM

Quote from: DarkAngel on December 19, 2009, 10:48:13 AM
Question about baryton trios...............are they string trios or keyboard trios? (or a mixture)

(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/brilliantclassics93907.jpg)

I still have my eye on this Brilliant boxset with many sales now on...........

They are string trios: "Divertimenti per il Pariton. Viola e Basso" were called by Haydn. They were composed for baryton, viola and cello, with three exceptions: trios numbers 89, 90 & 91, where the viola is replaced by the violin. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 19, 2009, 11:13:41 AM

Quote from: DarkAngel on December 19, 2009, 10:48:13 AM
Question about baryton trios...............are they string trios or keyboard trios? (or a mixture)

(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/brilliantclassics93907.jpg)

I still have my eye on this Brilliant boxset with many sales now on...........

String. The Baryton is a modified Viola da Gamba. The other 2 instruments are viola and cello.

I got the Big Box on Monday, I was just sitting down to listen to those trios for the first time. All reports that I've read so far are very encouraging. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 19, 2009, 11:15:00 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 19, 2009, 11:13:41 AM
String. The Baryton is a modified Viola da Gamba. The other 2 instruments are viola and cello.

I got the Big Box on Monday, I was just sitting down to listen to those trios for the first time. All reports that I've read so far are very encouraging. :)

8)

I was faster, Gurn! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 19, 2009, 11:18:32 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 19, 2009, 11:15:00 AM
I was faster, Gurn! ;D

I have a sore finger... ;D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 19, 2009, 12:00:46 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 19, 2009, 11:15:00 AM
I was faster, Gurn! ;D

I was shoveling snow off the driveway - >:( We got 7" yesterday; a rarity in Piedmont, North Carolina! Dave :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 19, 2009, 12:05:17 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on December 19, 2009, 12:00:46 PM
I was shoveling snow off the driveway - >:( We got 7" yesterday; a rarity in Piedmont, North Carolina! Dave :D

The whole Eastern Seaboard looks like a train wreck. I was tracking a package coming out of your state and was delighted to see it arrive in Dallas in this morning's update. One more increment on the schedule and it wouldn't have made it for Christmas. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on December 19, 2009, 02:50:15 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 10, 2009, 05:12:03 PM
What a lovely instrument that is, Dave. The keys are beautiful! Tortoiseshell you reckon? Adlam turns out to be more well-known for his instrument building than for his playing.

Thats the first thing I drooled over, tortoise finish black keys with radial relief carving along bottom of keys, sweet :)

Too bad there is not a nice pastoral scence painted on the underside of the lid so player could gaze at it and ponder the mysteries of life........

(http://www.guildmusic.com/jpg/clavic2.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 19, 2009, 03:04:33 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 19, 2009, 11:13:21 AM
They are string trios: "Divertimenti per il Pariton. Viola e Basso" were called by Haydn. They were composed for baryton, viola and cello, with three exceptions: trios numbers 89, 90 & 91, where the viola is replaced by the violin. :)

Really? Is that a 25cd set? ???

Egad, who would know the baryton if it wasn't of Haydn ? :o

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on December 19, 2009, 03:04:39 PM

Quote from: DarkAngel on December 03, 2009, 05:39:33 AM
OK I have obtained original instrument keyboard concerto set with these:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Dp3JY%2BLzL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MM1yL1X8L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31V2uuiMRmL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

I will join AM and others singing the praises of Schornsheim's marvelous work here, I was a bit concerned with sneaking an organ in there for a few concertos........but worked out nicely and added to the variety. She has a lively yet naturally balanced style that is very enjoyable and almost futile exercise to critique.

I think I am all set now with Haydn keyboard concertos, now if only Schornsheim and Brautigam will get busy on a Mozart piano concerto set .......must feed the beast

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 19, 2009, 03:12:43 PM

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on December 19, 2009, 03:04:33 PM
Really? Is that a 25cd set? ???

Egad, who would know the baryton if it wasn't of Haydn ? :o

No, only 21... ::) :D

It has all the trios, and also the duos, quintet, octets, sonatas (with cello), and a lot of fragmentary pieces for 2 barytons, for example. It is also available as part of the Big Box, although sans Disk 18. I listened to some of it this afternoon. The acoustic in the Esterhazy music room where it was recorded is very fine indeed. Probably the first time those tones were heard there in 230 years!

8)

----------------
Listening to:
The Music Party / Alan Hacker - Hob 02 26 Notturno in F for Wind & Strings 3rd mvmt - Adagio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 19, 2009, 03:32:49 PM

Quote from: DarkAngel on December 19, 2009, 03:04:39 PM
She has a lively yet naturally balanced style that is very enjoyable and almost futile exercise to critique.

Excellent news, DA. And I agree with you, she is totally at home in these Haydn concertos. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 19, 2009, 03:40:01 PM

Guys - glad that you agree! :D The Schornsheim recording is in the mail to me as I type from MDT! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 19, 2009, 03:48:59 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 19, 2009, 03:12:43 PM
Probably the first time those tones were heard there in 230 years!

A subtle observation indeed. It recalled to me a Borges' anecdote: He once recited the Lord's Prayer in Old English, in a crumbling Saxon chapel near Dr. Johnson's Lichfield, "to give God a little surprise". :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 19, 2009, 05:19:24 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 19, 2009, 03:12:43 PM
No, only 21... ::) :D

It has all the trios, and also the duos, quintet, octets, sonatas (with cello), and a lot of fragmentary pieces for 2 barytons, for example. It is also available as part of the Big Box, although sans Disk 18. I listened to some of it this afternoon. The acoustic in the Esterhazy music room where it was recorded is very fine indeed. Probably the first time those tones were heard there in 230 years!

8)
----------------
Listening to:
The Music Party / Alan Hacker - Hob 02 26 Notturno in F for Wind & Strings 3rd mvmt - Adagio

Would that there was a 'digest' of sorts, a "Baryton Festival of Hits" - like 4-6 discs max... ::)

Can one really learn and appreciate 20 hours+ of baryton music? :-X

And what does Alan Hacker do with the Nocturnes, Gurn? :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 19, 2009, 05:27:44 PM

Quote from: Lilas Pastia on December 19, 2009, 05:19:24 PM

Would that there was a 'digest' of sorts, a "Baryton Festival of Hits" - like 4-6 discs max... ::)

Can one really learn and appreciate 20 hours+ of baryton music? :-X

And what does Alan Hacker do with the Nocturnes, Gurn? :D

:D
Yes, well I wouldn't want a steady diet of baryton trios, no matter that they are very good quality music and well played too. Once they have had a good listening to, a 'digest' might be just the thing.

This is my first run through the Hacker, and only on #27 (starts at 25), but I really do like what I've heard so far. However they have managed it, they make the flutes/oboes sound a lot more like lira than L'Archibudelli do. Odd thing that... :-\

8)

----------------
Listening to:
The Music Party / Alan Hacker - Hob 02 27 Notturno in C for Wind & Strings 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 19, 2009, 05:34:19 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on December 19, 2009, 03:40:01 PM
Guys - glad that you agree! :D The Schornsheim recording is in the mail to me as I type from MDT! :)

I think also that you will enjoy it, Dave. :)

Was it really cheaper to go to Britain for it? I got it at cduniverse for $12... :-\

8)

----------------
Listening to:
The Music Party / Alan Hacker - Hob 02 27 Notturno in C for Wind & Strings 3rd mvmt - Finale: Molto vivace

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 19, 2009, 06:13:43 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 19, 2009, 05:34:19 PM
I think also that you will enjoy it, Dave. :)

Was it really cheaper to go to Britain for it? I got it at cduniverse for $12... :-\

Hi Gurn - no, a little more expensive for the Schornsheim from 'across the pond', but that order included a number of offerings, including the complete Brautigam Haydn Piano Sonata box, so 'in toto' just not that much difference; and the S&H is pretty cheap once a larger package is put together, so not sure that I could have done much better in the USA.

Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lilas Pastia on December 19, 2009, 06:36:32 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 19, 2009, 05:27:44 PM

This is my first run through the Hacker [Nocturnes], and only on #27 (starts at 25), but I really do like what I've heard so far. However they have managed it, they make the flutes/oboes sound a lot more like lira than L'Archibudelli do. Odd thing that...
----------------
Listening to:
The Music Party / Alan Hacker - Hob 02 27 Notturno in C for Wind & Strings 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato

Why? They're also playing on period intruments, and nobody really knows what the lira organizzata really sounded like. What I do recall is how utterly - totally, immensely - convincing this PI group brought Haydn's music to life. It just - bloomed, flowered. You know, when your buns decontract and you slouch an inch or two into the armchair, sporting a Goofy-like grin... :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on December 20, 2009, 04:59:38 AM

Quote from: SonicMan on December 19, 2009, 06:13:43 PM
a little more expensive for the Schornsheim from 'across the pond', but that order included a number of offerings, including the complete Brautigam Haydn Piano Sonata box, so 'in toto' just not that much difference; and the S&H is pretty cheap once a larger package is put together, so not sure that I could have done much better in the USA.

Thats the spirit.............to be totally HIP you must have the Brautigam Haydn/Mozart sonata sets ;)

Good thing you didn't buy any of those expensive individual releases from BIS, I am patiently waiting for Brautigam to finish his Beethoven sonata set so BIS can issue a budget complete boxset

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 20, 2009, 06:03:17 AM

Quote from: DarkAngel on December 20, 2009, 04:59:38 AM
Thats the spirit.............to be totally HIP you must have the Brautigam Haydn/Mozart sonata sets ;)

Good thing you didn't buy any of those expensive individual releases from BIS, I am patiently waiting for Brautigam to finish his Beethoven sonata set so BIS can issue a budget complete boxset

DA - yes, would love to see the Beethoven set offered as a box! My two 'complete' LvB PS sets are both w/ modern instruments - I've not done much reading on Brautigam's recording of these Beethoven works, esp. regarding whether he'll be using different fortepianos along the way?

The reason I raise this issue relates to my recent acquisition of Beethoven's complete cello works on the Dorian label (left posts yesterday in the listening & old musical instrument threads) - the keyboardist, Lambert Orkis decided to use three different fortepianos for the period recordings explaining that they seem to fit the compositions better relative to their dates of origin?

But once the Brautigam Haydn arrives, will be added to my Mozart box w/ him! Dave :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on December 20, 2009, 06:19:11 AM

Quote from: SonicMan on December 20, 2009, 06:03:17 AM
DA - yes, would love to see the Beethoven set offered as a box! My two 'complete' LvB PS sets are both w/ modern instruments - I've not done much reading on Brautigam's recording of these Beethoven works, esp. regarding whether he'll be using different fortepianos along the way?

Brautigam is indeed moving up the keyboard ladder using more improved keyboards as he gets later in the Beethoven sonata series, according to Brautigam's website the completed BIS Beethoven set will total 17 Cds so we are only on volume 7 now...................long wait ::)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on December 20, 2009, 02:41:33 PM

These two LHQ albums are quickly becoming some of my favorite listening. Once again, I feel for David Hurwitz that he must get so burnt out on music that he would hate what's going on here, mm mm. The prestos in particular, are pretty astonishing in their address.

I thought I was getting a Handel on Op.17 until I started listening to Op.9. It's going to take a while to sort it all out, but the A Major (No.6) popped out as just a blazer.

Both of these sets, as played here, have such a broad brush, with such an Old Instrument sound that you start thinking that this is High High Baroque (which, I guess, you could call it? Post Modern Baroque?)

Anyhow, all thumbs are up right now :o! This is THE BEST STUFF EVER (yes, better than Snapple)! I just have nothing to say about this topic anymore.

On to Op.20!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on December 21, 2009, 09:48:16 PM

In my fevered zeal to finish Haydn off by year's end I have mapped out the final territory to be conquered: Op.20, the first set I listened to back in March when I started this journey. That set was the Mosaiques, from the library, and, apart from the first mvmt. of No.5, I had no real quibbles, except for, perhaps, Herman's concerns with the QM in general (it's back there).

I had determined to do Op.20 HIP since the set still had that old style flavor (the famous slow mvmt. of No.2). In Op.33, I really love the Lindsays' nimble, light, playful, modern way, but in Op.20 I want a more "noble" or,... I think you know what I mean. I'm not satisfied with the Lindsays that I have now (2/5/6), though, they nail so much here (there are moments of that famous Cropper intonation that make you look, and, also, their style is a bit intimate and conversational for the Grand Op.20).

As a aside, I wanted to leave out the Hagen and Pellegrini right now until either the Auryn or London Haydn come out with an Op.20. That! should be something.

So, that leaves Mosaiques, Festetics, Buchberger, and Salomon, with the Esterhazy chiming in with Nos. 2 & 4, and the New Amsterdam (Channel Classics) with No.3. Since I'm looking for an alternative to the Mosaiques' No.5, they're out.

The Festetics' Op.20 is the only set of theirs that I can't find in the cheepcheep re-issues on Amazon. They are $84. They're out (unless you wanna rip me one!). I had originally reserved Op.20 for the Festetics (since EVERYONE ;D around here is... nevermind :-*), honest! I was.

I know the Buchberger could never be my go-tos here. I just know it. Maybe later.

I bought the Esterhazy.

That leaves the Salomon. I have their English Orpheus album, which is great, but others don't like them much. Still, I know of no one who has one of their Haydn recordings (anyone?). If they apply what I've heard to Haydn, there shouldn't be any problems, however, both of their cds are in the $20-25 range on Amazon (for used; new is $40-50). I was heartbroken. Not because they were sooo expensive, but because I knew that if I was desperate enough, I would buy them (but, consider that the Hagen set is $40 on Amazon).

So, what did I do? I got the Esterhazy (2 SQs on one cd???,...yea, and I paid extra for the original cover, haha), but then I could bring myself to plunk down for the Salomon, so I...

so I got the Dekany on Vox. I believe they did the Complete SQs on LP, but Op.20 was the only set transferred to cd. There's a blog somewhere where there's an exchange about the Dekany vs. Tatrai, with the two posters having the opposite view (that one has humanity whilst the other is a stern schoolmaster). Considering price, and rarity, and seeking dark horse triumph, I got the Dekany. We'll see.

Then I got the Ulbrich on ETERNA/Berlin Classics, doing 4-6 (I've seen their whole set on LP). I guess this is some lost German group from the '70s, a la Suske, that had an Op.20 out there. Since I'm looking for a No.5, and lacking suitable HIPness, I bit. I have great expecations for this one (unless expectations breed resentments, haha).

I'm going to at least get the Mosaiques back from the library (their 2/3/4 single disc is $30, whilst their 1-6 is less than $20), and, I'm sure I might very well get them back in the family, but I really had my heart set on another HIP to compare with the library copy.

If anyone wants to part with their Salomon, I'm all ears. Otherwise, within a month or two, I'm sure I won't be able to resist (join us,...join us,...). If anyone want to part with a Festetics, I'm all ears.

When will this be over? :'( :'( :'(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on December 22, 2009, 09:48:18 AM

I have half of the Salomon Op.20...it is wonderful and I slightly prefer over the MQ (which I do love through and through)...

The other disk of the Salomon Op.20 I need has proven to be quite expensive though :'(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on December 22, 2009, 10:48:24 AM

Quote from: Leo K on December 22, 2009, 09:48:18 AM
I have half of the Salomon Op.20...it is wonderful and I slightly prefer over the MQ (which I do love through and through)...

The other disk of the Salomon Op.20 I need has proven to be quite expensive though :'(

I'll raise you :'( :'( :'( and a :o!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on December 22, 2009, 10:50:38 AM

And you used the word "need", haha! :-*

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on December 22, 2009, 12:33:11 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on December 22, 2009, 10:50:38 AM
And you used the word "need", haha! :-*

I sure did! :-[ ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 22, 2009, 03:52:22 PM

Not sure 'which' Haydn thread this might belong in? Certainly not the SQs! But just a quote from a recent post in the 'listening thread' below concerning Haydn's keyboard concertos - unfortunately, the addition of the 2-CD set from C. Shornsheim included all of the performances of the Brautigam shown below (although several on different instruments) - will keep both, but still 'incomplete' as to the entirety of Joe's output in this area - :-\

QuoteHaydn, Joseph - Keyboard Concerti (disc 1 of 2) w/ Christine Schornsheim; set played on organ, harpsichord, & fortepiano (all three instruments on the first disc that I'm listening to @ the moment).

Now, Brautigam has a single disc out on fortepiano of some of these recordings; just looking at the liner notes, Schornsheim covers all of the Brautigam works except she uses a harpsichord on 2 of the works (vs. his fortepiano) - of course, the instruments and the interpretations will be different, so probably worth owning both sets of performances? But, these are still NOT complete - seems that 4 CDs are needed to cover all of Haydn's works for this genre. :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnPConcsSchornsheim/747617013_XraG6-O.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnPCsB/569123991_QNsna-O.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2009, 05:28:21 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on December 22, 2009, 03:52:22 PM
Not sure 'which' Haydn thread this might belong in? Certainly not the SQs! But just a quote from a recent post in the 'listening thread' below concerning Haydn's keyboard concertos - unfortunately, the addition of the 2-CD set from C. Shornsheim included all of the performances of the Brautigam shown below (although several on different instruments) - will keep both, but still 'incomplete' as to the entirety of Joe's output in this area - :-\

Well, Dave, you have to take both disks at their face value and be pleased that they are nice performances, because there are clearly some instrument choice issues involved.

Brautigam does 4 concertos, 2, 3, 4 & 11. Of these, 3, 4 & 11 are virtually always done on the (forte)piano. In fact, only #11 is even remotely possibly a true fortepiano work. It was composed in 1780-81, when one would expect fortepiano, but when, in fact, Haydn didn't have one yet. Still no saying that he didn't write for one, since he undoubtedly knew what they sounded like, but in all likelihood, the premiere of this work was performed on a harpsichord. And 2, 4 & 3 date from 1767, 1769 & 1771 respectively, so there is no doubt they are harpsichord concertos. But hey, they sound fine on a fortepiano, and Brautigam kicks a little ass there, I like that disk. :)

Schornsheim is far more correct in her choices of instruments, her only faux pas being to match Brautigam's with #4. If you want to hear #4 performed the way it's meant to be, I'm afraid you'll have to go to this disk:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/df/e4/d994793509a07fcc96123110.L.jpg)

and hear Ton Koopman and the Amsterdam Baroque do it. Which brings us to your final issue. Which is the 4 disk thing. Well, yes, if you were to combine Koopman's and Schornsheim's 2 disk sets, then you would have everything you need in the way of keyboard concerti by Haydn. Koopman doesn't include any of the organ concerti because he has them on another disk (<>$30 is you can find it ::) ). And Schornsheim doesn't include either Bob XVIII:6 (because it is a duo concerto for keyboard and violin) or anything from Hob XIV, which aren't full blown concertos, but are instead concertinos and divertimentos, while Koopman includes all of them, properly played on harpsichord. And as a bonus, you even get a (nice) harpsichord version of Hob. XVIII:11 in the event you want to be persnickety about the instrument. ;D So for anyone in that dilemma, this would be the combination I would recommend. If you don't give a rat's patootie about any of that, get the Brautigam and enjoy some very nice playing. ;)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Concerto Köln / Ehrhardt - Wilms Symphony #6 in d Op 58 1st mvmt - Adagio - Allegro molto e con fuoco

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 22, 2009, 06:07:07 PM

Gurn - thanks for the discussion & the Koopman recommendation - will take a look and likely add to my 'wish list' just to complete the Haydn keyboard concerti works - Dave :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 22, 2009, 06:28:38 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on December 22, 2009, 06:07:07 PM
... just to complete the Haydn keyboard concerti works - Dave :D

I think Dave that -as Gurn suggests- Schornsheim's discs really include the complete solo keyboard concertos. In other words, there are only eight solo keyboard concertos (currently considered authentic), but if you want to add concertinos and divertimentos with keyboard, you would need two additional discs. But these concertinos and divertimentos belong to another genre. I know: it is just a terminological issue. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on December 22, 2009, 09:12:28 PM

Just a friendly reminder that we're on Page 31, so we only have two more pages before our big Op.33 Bash when we reach 33 Pages. Everyone's invited. Perhaps we'll have games and prizes (c'mon kids, lets put on a show!)?!!

btw- we're keeping pace with the regular Haydn's Haus Thread, and I predict we overtake them after the holidays! ::) :-* ;D Once More Unto the Breach!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 23, 2009, 05:14:47 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 22, 2009, 06:28:38 PM
I think Dave that -as Gurn suggests- Schornsheim's discs really include the complete solo keyboard concertos. In other words, there are only eight solo keyboard concertos (currently considered authentic), but if you want to add concertinos and divertimentos with keyboard, you would need two additional discs. But these concertinos and divertimentos belong to another genre. I know: it is just a terminological issue. :)

Of course, terminological issues are what we live for, eh? :) Certainly Hoboken thought they were a different genre, although I, and thousands of others, might not agree with him. The difference between a concertino and a concerto are hard enough to define that one doesn't find definitions just laying around loose. But relatively, it is analogous to the difference between a sonata and a sonatina, which is only a question of degree...

And then we have Haydn's favorite, the 'divertimento'. Nearly every genre he wrote in, from keyboard sonata to string trio, string quartet, piano trio and concerto, he called a divertimento at one time or another. And in the baryton works, everything from a duo to an octet is a divertimento too! :D

But anyway, in terms of being 'full-blown' concertos, Hob XVIII has them all, I guess. Back in those days there is a lot less of a 'cut and dried' flavor to the music. We modern bin-keepers would have been suicidal at all that untidiness! ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: rubio on December 23, 2009, 05:18:16 AM

I just noticed that Bruno Weil has recorded some of the London symphonies. How does this compare to his earlier Haydn releases?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51UXpiCWvJL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on December 23, 2009, 05:22:26 AM

Quote from: rubio on December 23, 2009, 05:18:16 AM
I just noticed that Bruno Weil has recorded some of the London symphonies. How does this compare to his earlier Haydn releases?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51UXpiCWvJL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Great news! :o :) Weil didn't record these symphonies for Sony, which were with Tafelmusik instead of the Capella Coloniensis BTW. This goes on the list forthwith. 8)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 23, 2009, 06:02:02 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 23, 2009, 05:14:47 AM
But anyway, in terms of being 'full-blown' concertos, Hob XVIII has them all, I guess. Back in those days there is a lot less of a 'cut and dried' flavor to the music. We modern bin-keepers would have been suicidal at all that untidiness! ;)

Certainly all these things are debatable because classifications are just verbal conventions. However, I agree with the criteria used by Hoboken to define in this case the works considered "concertos", especially paying attention to the almost undisputed prominence of the keyboard and the role and nature of the "orchestra" in these works of the Hob. XVIII. Personally, I see the concertinos and divertimentos more like chamber music, not just for the size of the forces (finally not so different in some cases), but for the more egalitarian nature of the communication among the instruments. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on December 24, 2009, 08:39:22 PM

Well, sooomeone sent me the Festetics Op.20, and, for the first time since I heard about them 6 months ago on This Very Thread, I was able to hear them. I gotta tell you that hearing them simply makes me think of the months I fantasized what they might sound like, and all the ways they've been talked about. "Leisurely" certainly came to mind, haha! But please, let me give you my 100% TOOL (Totally Objective Opinionated Longwindedness):

My non-musical friend is familiar with Op.20/2 in C Major. When the Festetics came on, it wasn't 20 seconds later that she said, "It sounds like old men,... picking up young girls!" And I laughed, remembering the "spirited amateurs" comment. This was no cut, though, and indeed, the Festetics do sound like a mature group to my virgin ears. Of course, the mellow sound of the tuned down gut strings, and, may I say "unbuttoned"? approach (though, at one point my friend said "schoolmasters"), lends these interpretations a very "lived in" and yet spontaneous "live" feel.

My next impression is is that the Festetics "sound" NOT like a HIP band at all, but one of those more old fashioned 1950s type quartets. Yea, maybe they use minimal vibrato (their take on this is the easiest on the ears of any HIP band I've heard), but, IMHO ::), they sound to me like the "play" what I would just call the "natural" style. I mean, to me, it just sounds like a modern quartet, except that when chords and notes are held out, I can hear that non-vibrato buzz/fuzz, though in a very natural way, very pleasant. So, this way a big revelation to me. I haven't heard the Tatrai, but I would rather compare the Festetics to them, rather than to Mosaiques.

The very smallish "pleasant sounding" (my words) room, and fairly upfront recording, make this "afternoon merry music making" interpretation even more "right there in the room with you." It literally sounds as if the Festetics are right over there, and you're eavesdropping on their perfect practice session. This is about the most intimate Haydn you're probably ever going to get. The smile factor is pretty high.

So, how do they play the music of Op. 20, to my ears? Well, all this talk of "leisurely" I can understand, but I fail to hear it that much (the only first mvmt that seemed a touch less than was No.6 (compared to Lindsays, very much so)). I thought, though by no means speed demons (Lindsays, London Haydn Qrt), their tempos appeared to be right about the sweet spot all the time. They appeared extremely dependable to deliver the same thing over and over (hence, the allusion to old fashioned, "dependable" quartets). Sure, they are an ultra fine hair slower than most everybody all the way around (because of the "unbuttoned" approach), but, within that framework, everything sounds right. There WERE a few spots where I did feel drag though, mostly, I supposed in the meneuts or finales. I gotta say that I like my finales for all they're worth, and it was here that I found my most extreme compares.

Of course, I had to check out the first mvmt of No.5 right away to see if they did the big melody they way I like, and... no, and... I think it must be a HIP thing, that they don't allow themselves the overt expression, like I hear in first violin Cropper of the Lindsays. Neither the Mosaiques or the Festetics play the melody as impassioned as the Lindsays, but, beyond that, both do just fine. And, the Festetics do get it a bit better than the QM, IMHO, in this crucial part ( in the QM, the lead violin goes more into the texture, rather than soaring out front; the Festetics give the violin a little more spotlight, but the player won't allow his notes to really pierce my soul). Other than that, the Festetics' slightly folksy approach imbues this mvmt with a deliciously rustic feel (also enhanced by the close recording) that "sounds" totally different than, say, the Lindsays' more Heroic approach which is married to their sumptuously modern-icy-cool-warm ASV recording.

In fact, I thought the Festetics made No.5 sound like late Beethoven. Does anyone else hear this? And, of course, I mean it in the good way.

Concerning my other obsession, Op.20/2, I thought the close recording hampered true enjoyment for me. Not that I didn't enjoy the music, but the recording made this piece sound to "big" for me, too upfront, and I've got to have a little space in No.2. This is the same situation that I thought worked so well for No.5.

I had a direct compare in No.4 with the Esterhazy (who, btw, sound totally HIP to me, whilst the Festetics sound like the Festetics), and, ultimately, both bands play the music pretty much the same, which then led to the one observation about the Festetics that may generate some controversy (and, also something I don't recall being mentioned that strongly about the QF). When compared to the kaleid...oh, how do you spell it?, you know,... sound of the LHQ, or the very glittering soundworld of the Esterhazy, the Festetics do appear, just a bit by comparison, bland in their general ensemble tone. Individuals will make interesting sounds here and there (the cello is very deep sounding), but, generally, there appears to be a general "curtain" over the whole tonal landscape. PLEASE don't let anyone get their panties in a bunch here, it's JUST AN OBSERVATION. Perhaps I'm wrong ;D!

Yes, this post will cut up into weekly installments ::)!

I'm almost done, but I want to make sure I say everything I want to say. After thinking about the Festetics for 6 months, it's almost anti-climactic hearing them. I find them kind of plain-jane in the grand scene of things, but it is this very casual approach of theirs that is their total charm. The unbuttoned performances coupled with the living room recording give an extremely "homey" and happy impression. They seem solid, rugged, manly (as opposed to, perhaps, the Esterhazy's more feminine approach). Dependable. Smile worthy.

Though, by themselves, there is no real downside (there was much instance of intonation wondering in the slow mvmt of No.1 that I would need someone elses' opinion on (could it have just been the no vibrato thing?)), when compared with others, the Festetics seem to appear a shade bland. This is the same thing I see in the Kodaly. They are a great base interpretation on which to base other interpretations.

I'll be honest. I thought I was having problems with the Lindsays' Op.20, with a couple of particular intonation guessing sections, but, after this compare, I have come away so totally impressed with the Lindsays here. Their enthusiasm is UNMATCHED. Perhaps their leader's almost idiot-savant enthusiasm gets the best of him in microscopic places (I still don't know if I'm hearing anything wrong, or not), but, honestly, the Lindsays seem to do everything light years beyond everybody but the LHQ.

The Quartetto Esterhazy], also, has the most magical, Christmassy "sound" to their recordings of Nos. 2 & 4. Crackling notes break off like crackling sparks in a fluffy church ambience that leaves a halo around the intruments. And, their performances are the epitome of HIP delicacy. This sounds the most like four musicians playing in a castle hundreds of years ago. So cuddly!

Anyhow, I'm glad I finally heard the Festetics. By default of their recording (coupled with their approach) they have a sound just as distinguishable as the Mosaiques. They have their own Haydn niche, which no one else really comes anywhere near. They are the most "conversational" sounding group I've heard. Everything is extremely low key, even though they can generate the requisite heat. I think the word "leisurely" set me up. I don't find them "really" leisurely, but their approach is so genial, what other words can you use?

The bottom line is that, for me, the close up recording and "Sunday afternoon salon" unbuttoned approach combine to make you think your uncle and his friends are playing in the same room with you(though, not in the audiophile way). You definitely get a certain thing with this set. Personally, I wouldn't want their close up recording for every opus number (not for Op.20 (more reverb!), but maybe I'd like their dry sound more in something less dramatic and more motivic, such as Op.50, where their drier sound would help clarify lines better, perhaps?).

I remembered Jens friend scrunching her nose whenever the Festetics came on. I didn't have that reaction here. No real vinegar thing at all here, I thought.

Still, if you didn't tell me they were HIP, it would take me a while to hear the super little vibrato. They just play too naturally, and sound,...well...modern! Why haven't I heard this from anyone? I thought they weren't HIP.

Festetics= solid, dependable..., "not much this-not too little that"... dry, upfront acoustic (pleasant, not harsh)... your uncle, the schoolmaster, and a couple of beers.

I think Haydn would like em.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on December 24, 2009, 08:41:06 PM

Of course, I'm ASSuming that their approach and sound are consistant throughout the cycle.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on December 25, 2009, 12:12:53 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on December 24, 2009, 08:41:06 PM
Of course, I'm ASSuming that their approach and sound are consistant throughout the cycle.

Their style will be, and in that respect I think you picked up on their Hungarian string playing heritage - which is for me as important as their general HIP credentials and gives them that decidedly different flavour that suits Haydn like a glove IMO.

But I think you'll find that they will treat the middle and the late quartets appropriately different.

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 25, 2009, 06:34:51 AM

Snips,
Well, the things that struck you are precisely those which I mentioned as being the ones that their appeal to me consists in. IMHO, for the 4tets through Op 50, that's the impression they should give, given the fact that this is what the music was composed for. Glad yuo finally got to hear them, now you know what I was talking about. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Royal Concertgebouw / Dorati - The Nutcracker, Op. 71, Act II, Tableau III - Final Waltz And Apotheosis

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on December 25, 2009, 07:55:20 AM

Quote from: Que on December 23, 2009, 05:22:26 AM
Great news! :o :) Weil didn't record these symphonies for Sony, which were with Tafelmusik instead of the Capella Coloniensis BTW. This goes on the list forthwith. 8)

Q

There had been confusion about Capella Coloniensis in its original spelling. Fortunately that has been rectumfied, since.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on December 26, 2009, 05:41:08 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on December 25, 2009, 07:55:20 AM
There had been confusion about Capella Coloniensis in its original spelling. Fortunately that has been rectumfied, since.

Indeed. Cappella it is... 8)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on December 27, 2009, 02:31:44 PM

I'm waking up to the results of my bingeing... I have my first (and hopefully last) knucklewrap.

I saw this Ulbrich Qrt. cd, and, though I could find no info on them, I deduced that they were probably a '70s band. And so, they are. This set was recorded in 1973, though, that's all the info in the cruddy little booklet. Perhaps someone has an anectdote.

So, I had to go straight to the first mvmt. of No.5. Well, from the first notes, I'm feeling pretty good, though the recording is showing its' age, and the performance itself seems a slight bit reserved. Then, the first transition to the major key, that important descending canonic, is played very elegantly indeed, and yes, they even slightly spotlight the lead violin in the big melody (though... still not very passionate at all, grrmph). However, this is where individual touches end for me. The rest of the cd, the cd as a whole, suffers from a very "good" performance, but, as I'm now beginning to feel about Haydn SQs, "good" is the enemy of "Great"! It's all very selfless, but, some (or,...more than) of the excitement is missing. I will say that ALL of the timings are the shortest I've seen anywhere. Nos. 1 & 6 both clock in under 15 mins.! Still, this does not translate into anything appreciable.

Really, there's nothing else to say here. I could barely finish the listen. I just have no tolerance for "good" any more in Haydn. Does anyone want this? I'll send it.

Jeeves, bring me my slippers!

RIP

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on December 28, 2009, 03:08:20 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 10, 2009, 05:12:03 PM
What a lovely instrument that is, Dave. The keys are beautiful! Tortoiseshell you reckon?

There isn't an endangered species that Adlam wouldn't kill in the pursuit of keyboard beauty. ;D

I ordered mine with the hammers covered with leather made of baby-panda snout. There simply is nothing like it, even if it is quite pricey at three pandas per octave. (Roughly.)

(http://english.people.com.cn/200609/15/images/panda2.jpg)

But seriously, folks: Haydn to Have! http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=556 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=556)
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Haydn2009_background.png)

Haydn 2009 – Haydn Recordings to Own
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=556)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on December 28, 2009, 03:10:11 PM

Not a best of the year, but a "Best of Haydn" on a single (or double) disc... in celebration of the Haydn celebrations of 2009.

Haydn to Have! http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=556 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=556)
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Haydn2009_background.png)

Haydn 2009 – Haydn Recordings to Own
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=556)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on December 28, 2009, 03:11:14 PM

The sunglasses on your smiley... splatter-guard???? ;D

Back to topic, if tangentally:

Not a best of the year, but a "Best of Haydn" on a single (or double) disc... in celebration of the Haydn celebrations of 2009.

Haydn to Have! http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=556 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=556)
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Haydn2009_background.png)

Haydn 2009 – Haydn Recordings to Own
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=556)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 28, 2009, 05:09:32 PM

Quote from: jlaurson on December 28, 2009, 03:08:20 PM
There isn't an endangered species that Adlam wouldn't kill in the pursuit of keyboard beauty. ;D

I ordered mine with the hammers covered with leather made of baby-panda snout. There simply is nothing like it, even if it is quite pricey at three pandas per octave. (Roughly.)

(http://english.people.com.cn/200609/15/images/panda2.jpg)

But seriously, folks: Haydn to Have! http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=556 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=556)
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/Haydn2009_background.png)

Haydn 2009 – Haydn Recordings to Own
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=556)

Now, that is cool! Do you suppose you can use the fur off the hinders for the black keys? True, it might need shaved down a bit, but it seems like you could kill more pandas with each stone... ;)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
English Baroque Soloists / Gardiner Monteverdi Choir - Hob 21 03 Oratorio "The Seasons" pt 39 - Terzett und Doppel chor 'Dann bricht der grosse Morgen an'

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on December 30, 2009, 08:49:45 PM

Dig baby,

Our friend the other day here brought up the Salomon Quartet for the first time, I think, on This Most Stokin' Thread, and, being in the throes of Op.20 CDCDCD, I splunked down, count em, $52, for the set!!!

Maybe you didn't hear me,... I spent $52 on two (2) cds...

...anyhow...

I got 4-6 first, today, and, of course, I went straight for the first mvmt. of No.5. My impression of ALL HIP bands I've heard now is that none of them allow themselves the expressive freedoms others take for granted.

You know I go on about the big violin melody in the minor that happens twice proper (most groups repeat; so far, only Ulbrich doesn't). Only violinist Cropper of The Lindsays allows himself to soar on this most beautiful 8 or 9 note melody. The QM's violin is absorbed more into the ensemble, and with both the Festetics and the Salomon, even though they allow more "spotlight" on the violin, both violinists pinch off The Sacred Fifth Note of The Melody. I am just so sure that Haydn would've wanted to hear that note waaail.

That aside, my first impression of the Salomon is their delicacy. They are of course beautifully recorded by Hyperion,...back in 1991!!!... and they have what I consider a pretty tight acoustic. I can always appreciate a little more ample chamber; however, I will say, that except for those beautifully reverberatingly long held notes, this tight acoustic here is well nigh perfect for that intimate HIPness that the Salomon are (supposedly) known for.

I will say that I pretty much only heard negative things about the Salomon, but, as they gently bring up the opening of No.5, one is simply taken on a slightly different journey than either the QM or the QF. By now I am seeing the (self imposed) limitations of HIP, and, I wonder how many more Op.20s we're actually going to get. Between these Big Three, we've got a lot of ideas. I would of course love to hear the LondonHQ's take (that I can imagine being quite interestingly bizarre (their style might have to be tweaked a notch or two).

It is quite illuminating to have now heard four different HIP versions of two of these SQs (2 $ 4)! No.4 here sounds a lot like the Esterhazy interpretation, yet even more delicate, thought the Salomons don't have the Esterhazy's sonic "halo" that adds so much charm for me.

Without giving a blow by blow, the Salomons seem to generally lead the field in quick and crisp tempos (though, there is a softness too). Everything seems correct, and, there are no WTF moments. Their intonation resembles the general quality of their peers; their focus is softer than, say, QM, but, then again, their whole approach is very intimate. Their ensemble is dancingly transparent (also aided by the bold recording).

I really don't know how to criticize this group, frankly. They score definite points over both the QF&M in many key categories, and give very very little away. The super main difference between the Big Three is their recorded presentation:

QM: known for their big, "orchestral" sound and highly noble playing style.

QF: a very close-up, soft grained, dry and homey sound, like their playing at the other end of the room. The epitome of perfect lo-fi (IMHO). Plus, their conversational Hungarian style fuses with the recording to form a definite image of four horny old men (jus kidding!).

Salomon: that perfect Hyperion sound, in a slightly drier acoustic than normal, which, in this case. serves the production wonderfully. You will only slightly wish to have a bigger overall stage, but things feel right good. The most invisible presentation.

Some may find the Salomon a touch thin (a little bass response). Others may think they are not the very very last word in all things here. Perhaps the LHQ will do something wondrous, but until then, we have the QM, QF, Salomon, and Buchberger, all in very different presentations, to fill up that which lacks.

I know this is a very short review, but when 1-3 arrives, I'll settle in for a lengthier interrogation.

BOTTOM LINE: The Salomon Quartet are to be very highly recommended alongside their peers, and, in many respects, are to be preferred. Taste will dictate that you get everything,... NOW!!!

GO!!!

(But, I can garauntee that it will be $$$ for the Salomon... ouch!)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on January 01, 2010, 10:48:20 PM

And I got the Salomon playing Op.20 1-3...

Honestly, this set by the Salomon is just really sweet. Perhaps they are not the last word in contrasts in No.3, but to my ears, they have the best all-around No.2, bar none. To be honest, between the QM, QF, and Salomon, the recorded sound is really one of the main differences, and the Salomon certainly have the most mm mm good sound (on the drier side, 37%). Sometimes the recording may not seem as clinical as, say, the LHQ, with some of the fuguing losing slight detail, but, if I'm not worried, neither should you be ::).

One of the things that struck me was how, on the Ulbich cd, No.4 clocks in right under 15mins., and on the Salomon, in clocks in at 32!!! :o :o :o This is what I've been finding so curious about these pre-1800 SQs. I don't know if the Salomon take every repeat, but it appears so by the lengthy timings.

One of the biggest differences between these HIP groups is the variety of sounds they can make with these OriginalInstruments. The QF seem the least concerned about this, whilst the LHQ seem to have the greatest amount of cool sounds. The Salomon can make a few sounds of their own, though they are quite a few notches below the LHQ.

I think the Salomon do the "self-consciously" HIP thing (they are from 1991, after all) at times, which I think is manifested mostly in the phrasing, or sounding of single tones. I will have to compare with the QF's more natural approach.

Well, again, the BOTTOM LINE is that this Salomon Op.20 is a pure delight, with a general tone maintained throughout the set, which is marked by delicacy and light. Everything is pretty much the way one would want it, though a little more soul searing here and there would have been nice. Considering that the Salomon come from 1991, and the LHQ from 2007-9, we can see what strides the HIP mvmt. has been making over the last 20 years or so. The Salomon don't give anything away easily. All things in context- the Salomon deliver super high quality Haydn here. We're dating.

btw- yes, I've completely gone overboard and got the other Lindsay Op.20, and the Buchberger Op.20 (yes, Virginia, even them!,... we'll see what they do in No.5!). Hopefully I have sated the beast here. I would love to hear the Tokyo, though.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on January 04, 2010, 07:15:47 AM

After almost a year, I got the other half of the Lindsays' take on Op.20, and I gotta tell ya, IS there another Modern Version that does all that the Lindsays do?

Whatever "ragged ensemble" questions appear to be put to rest here. I was just bowled over again and again by their great ideas on how to play these pieces. Highlights include the Zingarese of No.4, which is taken quite fast (1:32!!!), making the Trio section's cello solo come out the best so far in terms of sheer excitement.

Also, No.3's first mvmt. has all the requisite drama, much more incisive than the Salomon. This Finale, as with all the Lindsay Finales, is taken at breakneck speed, which the group holds together thrillingly. One interesting aspect is that the Lindsays' Finale takes 3:42, whilst the Salomon take over 6mins., and the culprit is the repeat, but what is interesting is that it appears that the reason the Lindsays don't play the repeat is because the cd is at 79mins. already and wouldn't have been able to hold the repeated ending. Ha, take about choices!

The BOTTOM LINE is that the Lindsays have the most satisfying overall Op.20 because they take chances in EVERY mvmt. practically, and appear to pull everything off with only a couple of instances where you wonder if Cropper's enthusiasm just got the best of him. I personally can't tell, so I pretend everything's fine. otherwise, I am totally bowled over by the Lindsays overarching passion and committment in every note.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on January 04, 2010, 11:11:32 AM

Just got back from the library with the QM Op.20. It certainly had been a while, and it's bracing to hear them again at this point in the adventure.

After hearing QF and Salomons (and the Esterhazy), the QM come off this time as very gutsy and earthy, with lots of wood tones being squeezed out, especially in the lower register. Frankly, I think most everyone has a great take on Nos. 1 & 4. Everybody brings some form of The Goods to the Zingarese, and all take the finale very well in 4.

The QM have the slowest opening of No.2, along with the QF, but amply justify this by accenting the "chugga chugga" with lots of rustic bow strokes. The Capriccio is verrry slow though- I like the super heavy intro., but when the rhythm comes in, I do sense a slight bit of drag. One gets used to it, but still, compared to everybody else, there is a slight slowness.

I'm gearing up for The Super Op.20 HIP Review, not only mvmt. by mvmt., but nuance by nuance, haha. Hopefully the Buchberger will arrive shortly, and then we'll be off to the races.

Nurse!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on January 04, 2010, 07:46:56 PM

All I do is listen to Op.20 all day long...

??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???

...bum bum..d'bum bum...

...all day long...

:-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\

Spock! 8)

:-*

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on January 05, 2010, 06:35:51 AM

Only one more page to the Big Op.33 Bash! Call yer friends!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on January 07, 2010, 10:21:02 PM

For some reason I thought that the Buchberger's maverick approach would work for Op.20. I tell you solemnly that this set is one hot mess sweetie! :-* Jens' observation that they do interesting things one minute and bonehead things the next is pretty much it, though I found a frozen vision of what could have be super great, gothic and grand guignol(?), and quirky as all get out fun, but instead I find a lot to lay at the feet of the leader. Ultimately, many great ideas, I believe, are marred by psychotic execution.

The very intro of the famous No.2 Capriccio is taken verrry fast,... and then!, when the rhythm proper starts, it's almost as slow as the QM! I know, some of you are thinking, Has he gone mad? Anyhow, no comments from the peanut gallery, haha...

One idea that aaalmost hits the mark is the Menuet of No.5, which is taken at quite a draggy pace compared to everyone else, but, listen, it almost sounds like Beethoven! They really should have just gone a lot slower, and then the effect would have been complete. Can anyone hear this? Their slow mvmt. here is quite unique also. The first mvmt., with "that" note that I keep harping on,... well, they seem to do pretty good right up and until, but, they end up going so fast that they rob the music of some of its inherent drama. Lay off the coffee, guys! :o

In the places where they don't really distinguish themselves from the competition (first mvmts. of Nos. 1 & 4 & 6, perhaps), they really really don't distinguish themselves, and this is partly due to the dullish sound. The fact is, they produce a nice variety of tones, but the Edgar Allen Poe recording softens up the top end, giving a curiously strange and "authentic" sound, as if we're hearing the DeSade Quartet! ;) I just wish that they would have gone even further.

The problem is, when they do go further, they have trouble really pulling it off. Case in point is the Zingarese of No.4. The BBs take it lightning fast, as the Lindsays do (1:32/1:36, as opposed to the 2min. mark by all of their competitors), so that the central cello episode really takes on virtuoso appeal, but hear how the Lindsays' cellist really nails the endless notes, whereas the BB's cellist feels like they're stretching for it.

The fact is, the band plays pretty tight, but the leader sometimes doesn't seem to have it to produce his vision. I think it's potential genius to play these SQs as if they were DeSade's entertainment, but , if that's the case, then the BBs just didn't go far enough. They should have played the slow mvmt. of No.1 at half speed; they should have gone LedZep on No.5; they should have played the Capriccio as if for Baudelaire's funeral; and, so on...

I would love for a real gothy quartet, maybe in rock n roll white wigs with black 1700s' garb, to take on Op.20 (or, is that the Hagen set???).

I thought they played one of the slow mvmts. better than I've heard yet (was it No.5, or No.4?), but their recklessness can be exasperating at times, such as in the non-fugal endings of Nos. 1 & 4. Their speed only serves to drain the music of "point", and wit, so that all you hear are the musicians playing what sounds like Hindemith. Sorry :'(.

Their great strength is that they hint at the possibilities of "The Greatest 20". The risks, the tonal variety, there are some striking ideas here, in just about every mvmt. It's just that a) they're caffeinated, and b) they don't go nearly as far as one could go to making a "Rocky Horror 20" (and I mean that in the good way). The execution of super fast runs can be downright sloppy at times, and please, I hope no one will defend them on this point: there is just too much glittering precision witnessing againt them. It's not the rabidness of their approach I dislike (there are some great, rude, sounds here), it's just that they could have had that, plus blinding technique, and so much more.

The more I think about it, the more I wonder what the LHQ will do here, if we get to that point. The Auryn, too, have an opportunity to not do it "cookie cutter". We'll see.

Also, I wonder if the Hagen are as psychotic? They most certainly could pull it off.

I have one more Op.20 coming in the mail, the Dekany, and my expectations are high. I feel the long road is coming full circle. Go ahead, make my day.

Has NO ONE HEARD the Tokyo's Op.20??? ??? ???

Those of you who do like the Buchberger, do you have a particular set that you think they excel in?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 08, 2010, 06:53:05 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on January 07, 2010, 10:21:02 PM
For some reason I thought that the Buchberger's maverick approach would work for Op.20. I tell you solemnly that this set is one hot mess sweetie!....

Another fascinating review. Thanks, Snyp. I think I'll order this (it only costs 7 Euro...even if I only listen to it once, it will be worth the money). But what do you mean by "the Edgar Allen Poe recording"?

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on January 08, 2010, 07:18:45 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on January 07, 2010, 10:21:02 PM

Their great strength is that they hint at the possibilities of "The Greatest 20". The risks, the tonal variety, there are some striking ideas here, in just about every mvmt. It's just that a) they're caffeinated, and b) they don't go nearly as far as one could go to making a "Rocky Horror 20" (and I mean that in the good way). The execution of super fast runs can be downright sloppy at times, and please, I hope no one will defend them on this point: there is just too much glittering precision witnessing againt them. It's not the rabidness of their approach I dislike (there are some great, rude, sounds here), it's just that they could have had that, plus blinding technique, and so much more.

Those of you who do like the Buchberger, do you have a particular set that you think they excel in?

Perfection can often be the enemy of exciting musical presentation.........Schnabel is often quoted as saying to his recording producers "I can play that better with fewer mistakes, but it will not sound as good"

I will not trade the exciting Buchberger SQ for any of the more technically perfect performances by others......

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on January 08, 2010, 07:20:52 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 08, 2010, 06:53:05 AM
Another fascinating review. Thanks, Snyp. I think I'll order this (it only costs 7 Euro...even if I only listen to it once, it will be worth the money). But what do you mean by "the Edgar Allen Poe recording"?

Sarge

Some recordings reflect the glittering highs that bounce off even the low tones of the cello, but here, there is a roll-off, so that all the prismatic colors are dampened, and greyed. Perhaps also, recording venues lend a "halo" around the protagonists, and here, the effect is of playing in a torture dungeon. I don't know, I have a feeling this might be a bit subjective. ::) Perhaps sometimes I use the term "Eastern European" sound to denote what is classified usually as a "serviceable" recording. There's really nothing wrong here, just some treble roll-off (to my ears).

For it to be a true "Poe" recording, one would literally have to record in a torture dungeon (you know, just something cavernous,...with a hint of "creepy" tonal reflection,haha,...whatever that means!). I think I got carried away with the idea of a recording that actually conveys an emotion (creepy, scary in this case), as if the devil and three buddies were playing this music in hell's amphitheater. Can you picture it?

Can you think of recordings in which the "sound" itself is a co-star (meaning, it only adds to the music, not calling attention to itself per se)?

Honestly, I am almost experiencing Haydn fatigue with Op.20. ??? haha. Right now, some intense car drama is vying for my last two brain cells' attention. Medic! :P

Oops,...gotta get off the computy...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on January 08, 2010, 12:37:27 PM

Haydn Duty

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51il%2BTR-MUL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) Haydn String Quartets op.20 Buchberger Brilliant (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000ZLOAF0/goodmusicguide-20)	(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/418E73AAEDL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) Haydn String Quartets op.20 Kocian Orfeo (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000059D1/goodmusicguide-20)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41k%2BTAhmXNL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) Haydn String Quartets op.20 Kodaly Naxos (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000013WM/goodmusicguide-20)	(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51a2SF-2Z6L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) Haydn String Quartets op.20 Pellegrini cpo SACD (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0013PS4AO/goodmusicguide-20)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518J5XR3Y9L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) Haydn String Quartets op.20 Hagen DG (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000025WWK/goodmusicguide-20)	(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51YaMgvaQ6L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) Haydn String Quartets op.20 Festetics Arcana (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001E0KRCQ/goodmusicguide-20)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51R7t44rlFL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) Haydn String Quartets op.20 Mosaiques Niave (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000DETAX/goodmusicguide-20)

Buchberger rough'n'ready excitement, Kocian boring, Kodaly gloriously indulgent, Pellegrini diverse & beautiful, Hagen & Mosaiques sublime in their ways, Festetics ghastly.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: MN Dave on January 08, 2010, 12:43:58 PM

It's Haydn duty time...
It's Haydn duty time...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on January 08, 2010, 09:28:47 PM

My buttocks are clenched tight, as a fist. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on January 09, 2010, 02:47:42 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on January 08, 2010, 09:28:47 PM
My buttocks are clenched tight, as a fist. :)

T M I

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bunny on January 09, 2010, 05:54:49 PM

Quote from: jlaurson on January 08, 2010, 12:37:27 PM

Buchberger rough'n'ready excitement, Kocian boring, Kodaly gloriously indulgent, Pellegrini diverse & beautiful, Hagen & Mosaiques sublime in their ways, Festetics ghastly.

What, no Apponyi Quartet? That is one of my favorite sets. I don't know if it's still available in print, but you can find it here: classicsonline.com (http://www.classicsonline.com/catalogue/product.aspx?pid=926801)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Y5JJ0M1NL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on January 10, 2010, 06:14:37 AM

Quote from: Bunny on January 09, 2010, 05:54:49 PM
What, no Apponyi Quartet? That is one of my favorite sets. I don't know if it's still available in print, but you can find it here: classicsonline.com (http://www.classicsonline.com/catalogue/product.aspx?pid=926801)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Y5JJ0M1NL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Op. 20, Bunny, not op.33!
But thanks for bringing it to my attention. If it is still in print and not too difficult to get in the US, I will certainly try to include it in my upcoming op.33 survey.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on January 11, 2010, 01:58:45 AM

Hadyn – The String Quartets (Part 4)
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1607

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/Sonnenquartet480.png)

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1607)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Franco on January 11, 2010, 06:38:40 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on January 11, 2010, 01:58:45 AM

Hadyn – The String Quartets (Part 4)
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1607
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1607)

Excellent review - thanks for this!

I was a bit surprised at your reaction to the Festetics since they have been generally praised on this forum (I have not heard them but heard plenty about them). It is extremely nice to read a review that does not reflect group think and puts a real opinion out there instead of couching everything in CYA vagueness leaving the reader without anything worthwhile about the recording.

I look forward to your traversal of the later works.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on January 12, 2010, 07:52:39 PM

And so, all was quiet in The Enchanted Forest.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 13, 2010, 03:37:18 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on January 08, 2010, 12:37:27 PM
Buchberger rough'n'ready excitement, Kocian boring, Kodaly gloriously indulgent, Pellegrini diverse & beautiful, Hagen & Mosaiques sublime in their ways, Festetics ghastly.

So I own a rough 'n' ready, a sublime, and a gloriously indulgent. I think I'm set with Opus 20 :)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on January 15, 2010, 06:33:51 AM

So, I finally get to hear what the Tatrai sound like. I did a pretty full compare (Alberni, ABQ, Auryn, some Mosaiques, some Kodaly), and got some interesting results.

I went straight for the "Fifths", and what?, this version is curiously low powered. I went then to the "Emperor", and the sound level went up, and did the rest of the album, so, I'm wondering if the "Fifths" was recorded seperately. Either way, right now, the Mosaiques rule the "Fifths" for me. The Auryn are also very nice here.

The "Sunrise", No.4, in the first mvmt., has the same problems I've heard in so many versions (Auryn, Mosaiques). They just can't make the intro "magical." Right now I'm favoring the Orlando on Philips here.

The "Emperor" might be the best I've heard, and No.1 and No.5 come close to sweeping the field. As a group, the Tatrai can belong to the speed-demon group, with probably the fastest finales anywhere. The minor key finale of No.1 is breathtakingly thrilling compared to all-comers, as is the finale of No.3. When in doubt, turn to the Tatrai to deliver the goods.

No.6 is up for grabs, I think. No one really lets down here, though I think the Mosaiques are frighteningly sublime here.

I find myself thinking of the Festetics here, probably because both groups have that Hungarian thing going on? Both ensembles have a knife edge that makes each note glint like a diamond. The Tatrai have oodles more gusto though, playing at tempos the Festetics have never approached (in what I've heard).

The '60s recording is so homey you'll think your sitting in front of a fireplace sipping nog. The Tatrai certainly have that classic sound all the way around, which lends this recording a sense of authority that is comforting.

I was really surprised how my preconceived notions were played with. They didn't have as much of a wooden tone as I had been hoping for, but there are still plenty of rustic tones floating through the set. I really didn't hear any of the intonation issues I've heard about them (specifically Op.33). Their speed, also, was the big surprise; no one beats them in anything here. The Tatrai are one solid Oldsmobile, that's for sure.

BOTTOM LINE: except for an "eh" "Fifths", Op.76 receives classic treatment.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on January 15, 2010, 07:02:58 AM

oooo,... it's getting quite hairy in Op.20-land! I finally got the Dekany a month later, and, of course, went straight for No.5. And...and...

eh

big eh

The GOOD NEWS is that the Dekany have the most psychotically delirious No.3 I've heard. If you thought the Buchberger were nutz here, then check this out! Their finale is a barnburner! This may be a top-3 No.3.

Moving along to other Op.20 highlights, the Zingarese of No.4 is taken in the quick mode a la Buchberger and Lindsay, but here, both the BB and the Dekany fail to deliver the crispest cello. The Lindsays' cello may be the finest in all of Haydn.

The tricky first mvmt. of No.6 is not the best I've heard. No.6 seems to be the least considered member of Op.20, and the one most often flubbed. Here I like the Lindsays the best, with the Salomons and Mosaiques second.

The opening of No.2 is taken waaay too slow. The Capriccio starts off in "eh" mode, and then feels a bit too aggressive when the rhythm(will I ever learn to spell?) comes in. The menuet pretty well sucks eggs. Another one of the menuets (No.5?) also boggles, and, as I ponder, it seems that people who fail, fail big in menuets.

In mvmts. where most people play the same (first mvmt. of Nos. 1 & 4; finale of No.4) the Dekany (like the Ulbrich and Buchberger) really fail to distinguish themselves. Since these groups don't really have such a colorful tonal palette, some of the more standard issue mvmts. don't have anything unique to recommend them. The Great is the enemy of the good. I now have a collection of totally over-caffeinated fast mvmts. to choose from whenever I need an example of what NOT to do!

I'm going to lump the Dekany with the Ulbrich, and parts of the Buchberger, and, I suppose (according to Jens' review), the Kocian: groups that fail to totally distinguish themselves. The Buchbergers have their recklessness to commend them, but the others just don't speak to the standards that we are all used to here in this rep.

BOTTOM LINE: a demonic No.3, but a hot mess elsewhere, the Dekany are the spiritual forefathers of the Ulbrich and Buchbergers. Forever second-tier also ran. The Tatrai would probably be the direct compare, and I can't imagine the Dekany surviving.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Tyson on January 15, 2010, 09:42:12 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on January 11, 2010, 01:58:45 AM

Hadyn – The String Quartets (Part 4)
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1607

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/Sonnenquartet480.png) (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1607)

Loved your Glenlivet and Ardbeg analogy :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on January 15, 2010, 11:32:04 AM

Quote from: Tyson on January 15, 2010, 09:42:12 AM
Loved your Glenlivet and Ardbeg analogy :)

I'm glad someone picked up on it. ;)

The analogy limps a little... I"m a big fan of Ardbeg. Ardbeg 10, that is.
Although the Uigeadail is unbelievably good and smooth. Like motor oil
and no 'alcohol' bit, which is astounding for a cask strength whisky.

And now, because you brought the topic up and I'm watching football:
Highland Park, 18 Years.

(http://wols.eusa.ed.ac.uk/images/051013/ledaig.JPG) - (http://www.drinkhacker.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/highland-park-18-year-200x300.jpg) - (http://labodegaencasa.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/ardbeg-10anos.jpg) - (http://chwisgi.com/wp-content/uploads/ardbeg-uigeadail.jpg) - (http://lustyreader.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/glenlivet1.jpg)

And later: Haydn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Tyson on January 18, 2010, 09:16:36 PM

If you like Ardbeg (and I love it), you really MUST check out the Bestie - Ardbeg Airigh Nam Beist, the second best Ardbeg I've ever had, after the 1977 bottling.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on January 19, 2010, 08:21:24 PM

uh, hrrhmm,... exuse me, but we have a

Page 33 Bash!!

Yes, we now leave all things Op.20 behind (yea, likely not... I have a host of unresolved issues at the moment ???) and move along to the Big One, the one everyone points to as the big, influential set, the one that was written in the "new style", Op.33.

Next to the Opp. 9/17/20, I think I've quite taken to this first blueprint for what was to come in the next 12 or so years, and beyond. The first thing that stands out for me is the utter joyousness and playfulness and tunefulness of these SQs: the b minor and "Joke" finales, the slow mvmts. of 4-6 (especially 5-6), the first mvmt. of the "Bird"., and the really strangely beautiful meneut of said Bird. And on it goes.

Whereas Op.20 seems to me some Gothic Opera, Shakespearean, Op.33 seems like a magical enchanted forest of new ideas, not the least, humor. The to-the-pointness and fleetness of mvmts. also lends the set a rapid, over-before-you-know-it breathlessness. And the folksy, rustic quality of Op.20/6 here seems to take over. Does anyone else think this?

The only set I have is the Lindsays (I have heard the Kodalys) and, in this one set, I can't ask for anything more, really. I side with the Lindsay Lovers here. They can do no wrong here. The almost "silent movie" aspect to the music is carried to epic levels of emotion by this Most Romantic of Haydn interpreters. I hear the Auryn are the one to beat now, but, I think it will be a long time before it comes to my attention that there are other versions out there.

I remember hearing the Kodaly set first, at the time not really diggin' Haydn, and being taken with the almost beer hall atmosphere of the music and playing. In the ups and downs that is the Kodaly cycle, I think their Op.33 might have a legit hold on a top alternative second or third spot.

I'm having trouble imagining Op.33 as played HIP, a la Mosaiques, or, apparently the wildest of them all, the Apponyi. The Modern delicacy of the Lindsays suit this music so well that I can't imagine what the Apponyi, which people around here seem to mention in hushed tones (I've been trying to get their apparently only other recording of Boccherini SQs), sound like here. They'd certainly have to be light as a feather, which is why I wonder what the sometimes orchestral sounding QM make of this. Yes, I'm begging the question ::)!

A feature of Op.33 that also stands out for me is the way it's arranged. 1-4 have an Allegro moderato 1st, and Presto finale, whilst 5-6 have Vivace assai 1sts, and, strangely, Allegretto finales. 5-6 also have supremely expressive slow mvmts.

Though I have a particular boner for this whole set, some fav moments are:

1) the super fast finale of No.1

2) the "Joke" finale

3) slow mvmt. of No.4

4) the "Bird" menuet... verrry strangely creepy a la "witch's menuet"

5) slow mvmts. of 5-6

Whereas I still can't make heads or tails of Op.50, Op.33 was just an instant popular success to my ears, with things just endlessly revealing themselves (of course, with Op.50, this process is taking a wee bit longer ::)). Whereas, also,Op.50's homogenity is based on it's use of motives, Op.33, for me, achieves homogenity through it's absolute absorbtion of heterogenous elements,... does that make sense? Also, the sheer consistency of joy in this set is only matched, for me, by LvB's Op.18, which I think, is it's perfect answer.

Op.33 seems like a... poof!... out of nowhere set. By Op.50, Haydn was moving on, but some reminders of Op.33 pop up for me in 54/1 and in much of Op.64, which also appears to have a 1-4, 5-6 schematic. 64/1, 3, & 4 (and, of course, the b minor) seem to me an older Haydn's look back at Op.33, with 64/5-6 looking forward to Op.76.

Though I don't have any compares to offer, I do want to lift up the Lindsays here as thee most down home, comfy, lightning, deep toned, plucky, world -of-ideas approach one could wish for in such an all inclusive type music. To Lindsay Sceptics I would just say, They're pretty cheap on Amazon. I hear nothing but good stuff on this set, no strange moments. The instruments, and the recording, also, combine with the playing into what has to be one of thee all around absolute best Op.33s,...ever (Weller ;D)! Either way, this set just oozes "special".

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on January 22, 2010, 11:23:06 AM

Jus frontin yo

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 22, 2010, 01:26:49 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on January 19, 2010, 08:21:24 PM

Though I don't have any compares to offer, I do want to lift up the Lindsays here as thee most down home, comfy, lightning, deep toned, plucky, world -of-ideas approach one could wish for in such an all inclusive type music. To Lindsay Sceptics I would just say, They're pretty cheap on Amazon. I hear nothing but good stuff on this set, no strange moments. The instruments, and the recording, also, combine with the playing into what has to be one of thee all around absolute best Op.33s,...ever (Weller ;D)! Either way, this set just oozes "special".

I'd better draw you attention to the relatively new set by the Cuarteto Casals on Harmonia Mundi. I like it in general, but haven't played it enough to pick out particular details for comment.

I have one compilation set of the Lindsays recorded live "at the Genius of Haydn Festival"
(that, and "Haydn: Popular String Quartets" seem to be the closest thing to a title this set has), in which Op. 33 is represented only by number 4; I don't recall anything special about their performance.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 30, 2010, 12:57:59 PM

Violin Concertos w/ Federico Guglielmo & L'Arte Dell'Arco, a period instrument group - the violin used is by Genmaro Gagliano, Naples 1757. Papa Joe did not write many of these concertos despite having Luigi Tomasini as his concertmaster; from my New Grove Haydn book , these are Hob VIIa 1-4 - this disc contains Nos. 1, 3, & 4 (No. 2 apparently lost); No. 1 in C was noted to be written for Tomasini. Of course, there are also some other 'spurious' listed works.

Recent recording (2008) on the Brilliant label - well done! :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnViolinConcs/776860517_BGqtj-O.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 01, 2010, 06:36:22 AM

Well, Dave, after reading this I reached into the Big Box for Disk #35 and spun it for the 1st time. I have to agree, it is a very nice performance. The entire ambiance screams HIP!. :) For those who don't have these works and would like to give them a try, this disk would be a nice addition. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on February 01, 2010, 06:42:51 AM

Is that true? About the pandas being harvested for Haydn, I mean . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Franco on February 01, 2010, 06:48:50 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 01, 2010, 06:42:51 AM
Is that true? About the pandas being harvested for Haydn, I mean . . . .

Is that why he is called Panda Haydn?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on February 01, 2010, 06:52:46 AM

Oh, the horror!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 01, 2010, 07:10:43 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 01, 2010, 06:42:51 AM
Is that true? About the pandas being harvested for Haydn, I mean . . . .

Well, Jens would know, he is situated at the home of the National Zoo, where the supply of baby pandas is the highest. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on February 01, 2010, 07:11:54 AM

Coincidence? . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 01, 2010, 07:14:56 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 01, 2010, 07:11:54 AM
Coincidence? . . .

I think not. I've never been 100% sure about Jens.... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 09, 2010, 06:38:33 AM

Recently purchased during the Abeille Musique Rush:

6 Sonatas for Violin and Viola, Accent/ Christian Goosses, viola; Anton Steck, violin. Recommended by Gurn.

Haydn in London, Winter & Winter/ La Gaia Scienza

Haydn & his English Friends, Hyperion/ Psalmody - The Parley of Instruments, dir. Peter Holman

Haydn & The Art of Variation, Metronome/ Carole Cerasi, fortepiano & clavichord

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on February 09, 2010, 06:50:44 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 09, 2010, 06:38:33 AM
Haydn & The Art of Variation, Metronome/ Carole Cerasi, fortepiano & clavichord
:)

I would love to know your opinion of this disc, Antoine. I love the Theme and Variations works, and those by Mozart are simply delightful: you know he's going to have a lot of fun with it when the piece begins with a rather simple-sounding tune. And of course, he does! I don't think I have heard anything by Haydn, particularly (apart from those he has employed, say, in string quartets and symphonies).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 09, 2010, 06:52:54 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 09, 2010, 06:38:33 AM
Recently purchased during the Abeille Musique Rush:

6 Sonatas for Violin and Viola, Accent/ Christian Goosses, viola; Anton Steck, violin. Recommended by Gurn.

Haydn in London, Winter & Winter/ La Gaia Scienza

Haydn & his English Friends, Hyperion/ Psalmody - The Parley of Instruments, dir. Peter Holman

Haydn & The Art of Variation, Metronome/ Carole Cerasi, fortepiano & clavichord

:)

Ooh, that's a nice selection, Antoine. Some things I've been looking at for a while, like the Gaia Scienza and the Parley of Instruments disks. Please report back on those, I still have an opportunity to get them if they are 'can't live without' quality... :D

Also curious about the Cerasi. Been looking for more clavichord disks to go with the 3 I have now. Maybe duplicate though, I'll have to check. Glad you brought this one up, I never saw it before. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 09, 2010, 06:55:15 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on February 09, 2010, 06:50:44 AM
I would love to know your opinion of this disc, Antoine. I love the Theme and Variations works, and those by Mozart are simply delightful: you know he's going to have a lot of fun with it when the piece begins with a rather simple-sounding tune. And of course, he does! I don't think I have heard anything by Haydn, particularly (apart from those he has employed, say, in string quartets and symphonies).

Navneeth,
You must get Hob XVII:6, it is his best keyboard work even including the sonatas. It is a set of double variations, alternating themes and alternating modes (major-minor-major-minor etc). Just sayin'...

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on February 09, 2010, 06:59:31 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 09, 2010, 06:55:15 AM
Navneeth,
You must get Hob XVII:6, it is his best keyboard work even including the sonatas. It is a set of double variations, alternating themes and alternating modes (major-minor-major-minor etc). Just sayin'...

8)

Duly noted, sir. Thanks a lot. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 13, 2010, 06:33:14 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on February 09, 2010, 06:50:44 AM
I would love to know your opinion of this disc, Antoine. I love the Theme and Variations works, and those by Mozart are simply delightful: you know he's going to have a lot of fun with it when the piece begins with a rather simple-sounding tune. And of course, he does! I don't think I have heard anything by Haydn, particularly (apart from those he has employed, say, in string quartets and symphonies).

Hi, Navneeth. I will report back as soon as my new French friends of Abeille Musique decide to honor our deal.

Cerasi is an interesting performer, but I have only listened to her performing baroque repertory on harpsichord. Anyway, the title of her disc is a little bit confusing –or maybe not- because it principally includes movements of piano sonatas with variations or double variations and not isolated variations, just excepting the superb Andante and Variations in F minor Hob. XVII:6 "Un piccolo divertimento", recommended by Gurn and included by me below.

If it were necessary, I think these examples could stimulate your appetite: ;)

Andante con variazioni in F minor, Hob.XVII:6 (Ronald Brautigam, fortepiano):

http://www.divshare.com/flash/playlist?myId=10465746-251

Capriccio in G major, HobXVII-1 'Acht Sauschneider müssen sein' (Christine Schornsheim, harpsichord):

http://www.divshare.com/flash/playlist?myId=10466003-9e2

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on February 13, 2010, 06:39:03 AM

That is very kind of you, Antoine. Thanks. I shall listen to them after I finish with the currently playing LvB, Op. 67. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 13, 2010, 06:44:56 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on February 13, 2010, 06:39:03 AM
That is very kind of you, Antoine. Thanks. I shall listen to them after I finish with the currently playing LvB, Op. 67. :)

My pleasure, Navneeth! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2010, 06:51:00 AM

Antoine, I marvel at your resources... Cerasi hasn't been released yet in the US, and I checked jpc and HMV and they didn't have it yet either. But you have it... :'( :D

Anyway, if I can read the back cover right, it looks like Hob 16:19 is the clavichord piece, and the remainder are on fortepiano, yes? I'll definitely snap that one up when it gets here (late February, by the looks of it). :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on February 13, 2010, 07:04:42 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2010, 06:51:00 AM
Antoine, I marvel at your resources... Cerasi hasn't been released yet in the US, and I checked jpc and HMV and they didn't have it yet either. But you have it... :'( :D

Anyway, if I can read the back cover right, it looks like Hob 16:19 is the clavichord piece, and the remainder are on fortepiano, yes? I'll definitely snap that one up when it gets here (late February, by the looks of it). :)

8)

UK has it. ;)

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Metronome/METCD1085
http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//METCD1085.htm
http://www.crotchet.co.uk/METCD1085.html

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2010, 07:09:57 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on February 13, 2010, 07:04:42 AM
UK has it. ;)

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Metronome/METCD1085
http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//METCD1085.htm
http://www.crotchet.co.uk/METCD1085.html

Ah. Bloody Brits. :D Of course, the one of them that I checked was the one that didn't have it...

Thanks, Navneeth. It should be out here late next week according to Amazon.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 13, 2010, 08:13:19 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2010, 06:51:00 AM
Antoine, I marvel at your resources... Cerasi hasn't been released yet in the US, and I checked jpc and HMV and they didn't have it yet either. But you have it... :'( :D

Anyway, if I can read the back cover right, it looks like Hob 16:19 is the clavichord piece, and the remainder are on fortepiano, yes? I'll definitely snap that one up when it gets here (late February, by the looks of it). :)

I was very lucky, Gurn; I purchased it at offer price on Abeille Musique. BTW, I understood the same: just Hob. XVI:19 on clavichord (did you see the acknowledgement to the British Clavichord Society? IIRC that Society was related to the Adlam's disc, no?).

Like you I'm also very interested in those "Haydn in London" discs. I have sometimes thought what a wonderful movie could be made on that period of Haydn's life. I can even see the trailer! "My name is Salomon; I have come from London to fetch you; we will settle terms tomorrow". :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2010, 08:21:19 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 13, 2010, 08:13:19 AM
I was very lucky, Gurn; I purchased it at offer price on Abeille Musique. BTW, I understood the same: just Hob. XVI:19 on clavichord (did you see the acknowledgement to the British Clavichord Society? IIRC that Society was related to the Adlam's disc, no?).

Well, I was trying to read it off the picture you posted, but the little symbol they used to differentiate is hard to tell at that magnification. But that would be good anyway, since 19 is not recorded on clavichord by any of the others. :)

QuoteLike you I'm also very interested in those "Haydn in London" discs. I have sometimes thought what a wonderful movie could be made on that period of Haydn's life. I can even see the trailer! "My name is Salomon; I have come from London to fetch you; we will settle terms tomorrow". :D

:D

Mozart: "But Papa, I fear that if you leave, I shall never see you again"

Haydn: " No worries lad, I'll be back..."

Yes, that would be a good topic. I've read a couple of books now that dwell heavily on the London music scene at the time, I think it would make a fascinating movie. In particular, they could leave the story alone and not have to invent a love interest for him, since Rebecca Schröter solves that necessity quite nicely indeed. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood - Hob 01 034 Symphony in d 3rd mvmt - Menuet - Trio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 13, 2010, 08:49:13 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2010, 08:21:19 AM
Mozart: "But Papa, I fear that if you leave, I shall never see you again"

Haydn: " No worries lad, I'll be back..."

It would be wonderful for the trailer too. :D

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2010, 08:21:19 AM
In particular, they could leave the story alone and not have to invent a love interest for him, since Rebecca Schröter solves that necessity quite nicely indeed. :)

And what about Marianne von Genzinger, Gurn? It would be so tempting to imagine a tender and, finally, tragic love's story between them and a devastating Andante con variazioni in F minor resounding in the movie when she dies. :'(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2010, 08:58:35 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 13, 2010, 08:49:13 AM
It would be wonderful for the trailer too. :D

And what about Marianne von Genzinger, Gurn? It would be so tempting to imagine a tender and, finally, tragic love's story between them and a devastating Andante con variazioni in F minor resounding in the movie when she dies. :'(

:D Oh yes, the "other woman", pinin' away in Vienna whist our peripatetic composer is out seeing the world. And not to forget Luigia Polzelli either, or The Infernal Beast who was still around. :D And maybe even a nice scene with him singing and playing with poetess Ann Hunter her "Original Canzonettas". Yup, he had it going on there, it seems. Hollywood would love it! (not to mention that just plain sticking to the facts would make a fascinating movie, who could write something like that?)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood - Hob 01 021 Symphony in A 1st mvmt - Adagio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on February 14, 2010, 10:32:29 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 13, 2010, 06:33:14 AM
[T]he superb Andante and Variations in F minor Hob. XVII:6 "Un piccolo divertimento", recommended by Gurn and included by me below.

If it were necessary, I think these examples could stimulate your appetite: ;)

Andante con variazioni in F minor, Hob.XVII:6 (Ronald Brautigam, fortepiano):

<Embedded Flash>

Capriccio in G major, HobXVII-1 'Acht Sauschneider müssen sein' (Christine Schornsheim, harpsichord):

<Embedded Flash>

:)

Just had my first session with the Variations. Quite a wonderful piece, and on a different plane than the Mozart variations I mentioned/had in mind earlier. I, for one, would not have been able to say (if I had not been informed earlier) if this piece would be a set of variations. And right at the beginning, it starts with the theme in a manner I find similar to some Schubert impromptus and Chopin's nocturnes -- some of my most loved works. Once again: thank you, Gurn and Antoine, for introducing me to this piece. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 14, 2010, 10:49:45 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on February 14, 2010, 10:32:29 AM
Just had my first session with the Variations. Quite a wonderful piece, and on a different plane than the Mozart variations I mentioned/had in mind earlier. I, for one, would not have been able to say (if I had not been informed earlier) if this piece would be a set of variations. And right at the beginning, it starts with the theme in a manner I find similar to some Schubert impromptus and Chopin's nocturnes -- some of my most loved works. Once again: thank you, Gurn and Antoine, for introducing me to this piece. :)

Ah, glad you like those, Navneeth. Haydn is said by many to have invented this form, called double variation, although it is unlikely that he actually did. But he certainly used it better than most, since it shows up in many orchestral and chamber works as well as the keyboard works. It is entirely different than what others were doing at the time, including Mozart (who was pretty much standard in his T & V's). That one dates from 1793, in London, so not an early work at all. And might be deemed likely to have been heard by Chopin AND Schubert... just sayin'... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on February 14, 2010, 10:56:23 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 14, 2010, 10:49:45 AM
Ah, glad you like those, Navneeth. Haydn is said by many to have invented this form, called double variation, although it is unlikely that he actually did. But he certainly used it better than most, since it shows up in many orchestral and chamber works as well as the keyboard works.

I was just reading about that on Wikipedia where a large portion of the article is devoted to a list of Haydn's works, with a nod to CPE, who might have been Haydn's inspiration.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 14, 2010, 12:00:44 PM

Quote from: Opus106 on February 14, 2010, 10:56:23 AM
I was just reading about that on Wikipedia where a large portion of the article is devoted to a list of Haydn's works, with a nod to CPE, who might have been Haydn's inspiration.

Makes good sense to me. He had the highest respect for CPE, and studied his keyboard works extensively early on. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 20, 2010, 08:10:41 AM

Haydn: The Seven Last Words of Our Saviour on the Cross (Orchestral version, 1786)
Le Concert Des Nations
Jordi Savall (direction)
DVD

I bought this DVD almost two months ago, but just yesterday I had time to watch it.

It was released in 2009, but the performance is the same previously released on CD and SACD by Alia Vox in 2007 and recorded at the Santa Cueva of Cádiz Church, Spain on October 2-4, 2006.

I have enjoyed watching these excellent musicians playing their period instruments (Manfredo Kramer and Marc Hantaï immediately come to my mind), but I suppose the small space at the church avoids better results because the musicians look rather piled up and the church itself seems uninteresting or, at least, almost ignored by the director.

Additionally, the extras don't add too much in the musical aspects, just excepting a short interview to Jordi Savall (I was surprised for his agreeable voice). The liner notes are the same included in the booklet of the CD.

Finally, a good amount of Catholic imagery is showed during the performance and the Gospels are read -like in the CD- in between every movement... Just a warning for our non-believers members and/or moderators. ;)

Below some captures from the French (?) TV Channel "Mezzo", posted on You Tube:

Sonata V. Adagio:

http://www.youtube.com/v/VjtOaN8TBS8

Il Terremoto. Presto con tutta la forza:

http://www.youtube.com/v/ihbrlcfCSts

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 20, 2010, 08:13:57 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 20, 2010, 08:10:41 AM
Haydn: The Seven Last Words of Our Saviour on the Cross (Orchestral version, 1786)
Le Concert Des Nations
Jordi Savall (direction)
DVD

I bought this DVD almost two months ago, but just yesterday I had time to watch it.

It was released in 2009, but the performance is the same previously released on CD and SACD by Alia Vox in 2007 and recorded at the Santa Cueva of Cádiz Church, Spain on October 2-4, 2006.

I have enjoyed watching these excellent musicians playing their period instruments (Manfredo Kramer and Marc Hantaï immediately come to my mind), but I suppose the small space at the church avoids better results because the musicians look rather piled up and the church itself seems uninteresting or, at least, almost ignored by the director.

Additionally, the extras don't add too much in the musical aspects, just excepting a short interview to Jordi Savall (I was surprised for his agreeable voice). The liner notes are the same included in the booklet of the CD.

Finally, a good amount of Catholic imagery is showed during the performance and the Gospels are read -like in the CD- in between every movement. Just a warning for our non-believers contributors and/or moderators. ;)

Below some captures from the French (?) TV Channel "Mezzo", posted on You Tube:

Sonata V. Adagio:

http://www.youtube.com/v/VjtOaN8TBS8

Il Terremoto. Presto con tutta la forza:

http://www.youtube.com/v/ihbrlcfCSts

Yes, I have the CD version of this, it is such an outstanding performance! I do appreciate the alert... ;D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 20, 2010, 09:32:38 AM

Quote from: Soapy Molloy on February 20, 2010, 09:29:57 AM
Ditto. And as a non-Christian, the inclusion of Catholic liturgy doesn't bother me a bit, any more than in the Masses. :)

Yeah, the imagery is interesting, and in many cases it was the paramount artwork of its time. Something that has held true since the Egyptians, at least. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 21, 2010, 08:48:14 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 20, 2010, 08:13:57 AM
Yes, I have the CD version of this, it is such an outstanding performance! I do appreciate the alert... ;D

It's a formidable performance indeed.

BTW, Gurn, IIRC some months ago you purchased the string quartet version of the Seven Last Words, performed by the Terpsycordes Quartet. What's your opinion about it?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 21, 2010, 08:55:22 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 21, 2010, 08:48:14 AM
It's a formidable performance indeed.

BTW, Gurn, IIRC some months ago you purchased the string quartet version of the Seven Last Words, performed by the Terpsycordes Quartet. What's your opinion about it?

Well, they play in a more modern style than the QF or QM, more of an early Romantic sort of style if you will (bet they are really good in Schubert!). It's funny, I often read the complaint "they are a Baroque group trying to play Classical...", but in this case it is the opposite, they seem more like a Romantic group going backwards instead. In any case, the playing is very good, and would very likely suit the many people who like a bit more vibrato you would expect from that setup. Nicely recorded sound, I'm pleased overall with it, since the period strings are so wonderfully mellow. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on February 21, 2010, 09:12:32 AM

[Off-topic question follows]

What does "Terpsycordes" mean? (Google doesn't help, nor does the ensemble's website.) Incidentally, while I was at the website reading about them, I found out that they specialise in playing both period and modern instruments.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 21, 2010, 09:13:33 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 21, 2010, 08:55:22 AM
... in this case it is the opposite, they seem more like a Romantic group going backwards instead.

Thanks, Gurn. I suspected something like that. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 21, 2010, 09:16:21 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on February 21, 2010, 09:12:32 AM
[Off-topic question follows]

What does "Terpsycordes" mean? (Google doesn't help, nor does the ensemble's website.) Incidentally, while I was at the website reading about them, I found out that they specialise in playing both period and modern instruments.

Without going into a bunch of research, I can say that it has to do with Ancient Greece and dancing. Try "Terpsychore" who I think was a goddess of dance or something like that. And hell, if I'm wrong, well, there you go. It's my day of rest, I can't be expected to think 7 days a week... ;D ;D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 21, 2010, 09:22:11 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 21, 2010, 09:16:21 AM
Without going into a bunch of research, I can say that it has to do with Ancient Greece and dancing. Try "Terpsychore" who I think was a goddess of dance or something like that. And hell, if I'm wrong, well, there you go. It's my day of rest, I can't be expected to think 7 days a week... ;D ;D

8)

terre - psy - cordes = earth - spirit - chords

http://www.terpsycordes.com/main_e.html

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on February 21, 2010, 09:23:12 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 21, 2010, 09:16:21 AM
Without going into a bunch of research, I can say that it has to do with Ancient Greece and dancing. Try "Terpsychore" who I think was a goddess of dance or something like that. And hell, if I'm wrong, well, there you go. It's my day of rest, I can't be expected to think 7 days a week... ;D ;D

8)

Not bad for a Rest Day, Gurn. ;D ;) I actually thought Greek, looking at "Terpsy," but the "cordes" (French "strings") threw me off. Or is that supposed to be a play on words? Anyway, thanks for the lead. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on February 21, 2010, 09:26:54 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 21, 2010, 09:22:11 AM
terre - psy - cordes = earth - spirit - chords

http://www.terpsycordes.com/main_e.html

:)

Ah, so the cordes is indeed the cordes I was thinking of. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 21, 2010, 09:32:14 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 21, 2010, 09:22:11 AM
terre - psy - cordes = earth - spirit - chords

http://www.terpsycordes.com/main_e.html

:)

Ah, probably more literal. I had picked it up inferentially from something I read probably 40 years ago that used the adjective "terpsichorean" to describe a situation that I knew involved dancing, so it stuck in my head that way for all this time. Although it is a word that deserves to be looked up. :)

Quote from: Opus106 on February 21, 2010, 09:23:12 AM
Not bad for a Rest Day, Gurn. ;D ;) I actually thought Greek, looking at "Terpsy," but the "cordes" (French "strings") threw me off. Or is that supposed to be a play on words? Anyway, thanks for the lead. :)

I think it is their own word that they neologized for the occasion. Kind of like "L'Archibudelli" (Bows and gut) being made up too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 21, 2010, 10:12:31 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 21, 2010, 09:32:14 AM
I think it is their own word that they neologized for the occasion. Kind of like "L'Archibudelli" (Bows and gut) being made up too. :)

I would say you're right on that one. I thought the same that you did, when I saw that question. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on February 24, 2010, 08:57:31 PM

oh, how dare they let thee languish

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 25, 2010, 06:45:49 PM

Nice disc:

Vitality and Virtuosity - Sonatas by Haydn and Beethoven
Ivan Ilic, piano

MAGNATUNE.COM (http://magnatune.com/artists/albums/ilic-vitality/)

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on February 26, 2010, 04:06:04 AM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51nIMpCBsIL._SS400_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31cNc1-do%2BL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Sony Vivarte has collected together a 7CD set of 21 Haydn symphonies by Bruno Weil at budget price level, a great companion to the recent Sony Vivarte 4CD Hadyn Mass box.

Mine should arrive any day now........

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on February 26, 2010, 04:18:05 AM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lGV%2BDDf2L._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41Xwh1%2Beb4L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Sony also gives us large set of Bernstein's collected early NYPO Haydn and a remastered 2CD Szell set.
Not sure we need Bernstein's masses, but the early Paris & London symphonies are very enjoyable, interesting to hear tempos used by conductors like Bernstein, Szell before any of the HIP recordings changed performance styles

Before this new Bernstein boxset I had collected the NYPO Paris and London Symphonies with these:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41HF8SP0TAL._SL500_AA240_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/316SYRKSK5L._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 26, 2010, 01:16:16 PM

Joseph Haydn – Complete Songs
Elly Ameling (soprano)
Jörg Demus (piano)
Recorded 7/1980, Musis Sacrem, Amhem, The Netherlands
Total playing time: 2.21.59
2-SACD set, remastered quadro recording
PentaTone Classics
For more info:
www.pentatonemusic.com
http://www.pentatonemusic.com/index1.htm

The material included in these two PentaTone SACD is exactly the same re-released on 3 CDs by Brilliant Classics under Decca license, both as a part of the Haydn big box (discs 79, 80 & 81) and as an individual 3-CD set. Curiously, although the material and the performances are the same, the PentaTone discs should be strongly preferred over the Brilliant set because of their superb sound quality, even if you have the Brilliant set. To put it simply, the PentaTone discs show another musical world, which does complete justice to the artistry of Ameling/Demus in these charming songs.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 26, 2010, 01:38:45 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 26, 2010, 01:16:16 PM
Joseph Haydn – Complete Songs
Elly Ameling (soprano)
Jörg Demus (piano)
...the PentaTone discs should be strongly preferred over the Brilliant set because of their superb sound quality, even if you have the Brilliant set. To put it simply, the PentaTone discs show another musical world, which does complete justice to the artistry of Ameling/Demus in these charming songs.

Of course, that's only true if you have the equipment necessary to do them justice. This duo does a very fine job even just on redbook CD... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on February 26, 2010, 02:00:47 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 26, 2010, 01:38:45 PM
Of course, that's only true if you have the equipment necessary to do them justice. This duo does a very fine job even just on redbook CD... :)

8)

I think he's talking about the remastering, and not SA vs redbook. Brilliant Classics just reissue, no remastering done. PentaTone has a reputation for careful remastering before release. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 26, 2010, 02:25:40 PM

Quote from: DavidW on February 26, 2010, 02:00:47 PM
I think he's talking about the remastering, and not SA vs redbook. Brilliant Classics just reissue, no remastering done. Pentatone has a reputation for careful remastering before release. 8)

That's right. I don't have a SACD player, but the PentaTone discs are so superbly remastered that a SACD player is not necessary to enjoy the obvious improvements of those discs.

BTW, Amazon offers that 2-SACD set at $19.99.- 8) :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 26, 2010, 03:16:07 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 26, 2010, 02:25:40 PM
That's right. I don't have a SACD player, but the PentaTone discs are so superbly remastered that a SACD player is not necessary to enjoy the obvious improvements of those discs.

BTW, Amazon offers that 2-SACD set at $19.99.- 8) :)

Ah, I see. I thought you wanted me to re-do my music room in order to hear just a tad more sound... :D My bad. ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bunny on February 26, 2010, 07:23:11 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on January 19, 2010, 08:21:24 PM

I'm having trouble imagining Op.33 as played HIP, a la Mosaiques, or, apparently the wildest of them all, the Apponyi. The Modern delicacy of the Lindsays suit this music so well that I can't imagine what the Apponyi, which people around here seem to mention in hushed tones (I've been trying to get their apparently only other recording of Boccherini SQs), sound like here. They'd certainly have to be light as a feather, which is why I wonder what the sometimes orchestral sounding QM make of this. Yes, I'm begging the question ::)!

You can listen to samples of the Appónyi-Quartett's Haydn at ClassicsOnline (http://www.classicsonline.com/catalogue/product.aspx?pid=926801). If you're interested, send me a message. Amazon will sell it starting March 30, 2010. You can find it here (http://www.amazon.com/Sechs-Streichquartette-Op-Haydn-F-J/dp/B002S3BHGI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1267245687&sr=1-1).

Btw, Amazon will be selling the Boccherini recording starting April 6, 2010. You can find it here (http://www.amazon.com/Dialogo-Musicale-Leo-Meilink/dp/B0037SQ2PO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1267245289&sr=8-1).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on February 26, 2010, 10:39:18 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on January 19, 2010, 08:21:24 PM

I'm having trouble imagining Op.33 as played HIP, a la Mosaiques, or, apparently the wildest of them all, the Apponyi. The Modern delicacy of the Lindsays suit this music so well that I can't imagine what the Apponyi, which people around here seem to mention in hushed tones (I've been trying to get their apparently only other recording of Boccherini SQs), sound like here. They'd certainly have to be light as a feather, which is why I wonder what the sometimes orchestral sounding QM make of this. Yes, I'm begging the question ::)!

There is nothing particularly wild about the Apponyi Quartet. Just the four principle strings of the Freiburg Baroque Orchestra turning in a nice and civilized performance. Can't say I necessarily prefer it over Quatuor Mosaique or the Ice-skater-refinement of the Auryn Quartet, but it's a tasteful, delightful affair for sure.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 01, 2010, 10:43:03 AM

Well, I'm not sure if this disc has already been discussed in this or another thread, but just some further thoughts might be worth more rumination:

Sonatas for Violin & Fortepiano w/ Alberto Bologni (violin, Santo Serafino, 1734) & Giuseppe Modugno (fortepiano, Johann Schantz, 1815) - of course the initial question is whether Papa Joe wrote music for this duo of instruments?

There are 5 compositions listed w/ the following Hoboken designations: Hob.XV a N. 1 (B flat major), Hob.XV a N. 2 (D major), Hob.XV a N. 3 (C major), Hob.XV:31 (E flat minor), & Hob.XV:32 (G major). Now in reviewing the catalog in the New Grove Haydn bio, the last two are listed and attributed to the composer; however, I cannot definitely locate the first three - real or not? The performers claim these are authentic. Interestingly, the Hob.XV works are generally listed as 'Keyboard Trios', so another curiosity.

Concerning the performance, these are well done, pleasant, and with an up front recording stage - the violin is a little bright (wonder if it is gut or steel strung?); the fortepiano sounds great! A review from the Jan-Feb 2010 issue of the ARG is pictured below along w/ the cover art for the disc. Dave :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnFPianoViolinSonatas/798912972_dqiQB-O.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnViolinSonatas/800096690_BBGxa-O.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 01, 2010, 11:03:32 AM

Dave, glad you posted this, I've wanted to hear someone's reaction to it before I spent the $$ on it myself... :D You are such a wonderful guinea pig. :)

There is little doubt that the "violin sonatas" are merely reductions of the piano trios. So the question becomes simply "did Joe do it or someone else?". As accompanied keyboard sonatas, the theory is that either or both of the string instruments could be elided and no harm would come to the music. In the case of Haydn's, that is a bit of a jump, since there are, in fact, a few obligatto passages for violin and/or cello, but not really anything that can't get covered by a very good player. The cello is probably the easiest instrument to drop off, since it basically doubles the left hand of the keyboard player.

I will offer this as my opinion, based solely on my reading and listening to masses of Haydn materials recently; he would have had no objection at all to having these works arranged for only 2 players (or even just 1 player), but he probably din't do it himself. My 2 cents. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 01, 2010, 01:55:28 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 01, 2010, 11:03:32 AM
Dave, glad you posted this, I've wanted to hear someone's reaction to it before I spent the $$ on it myself... :D You are such a wonderful guinea pig. :)

There is little doubt that the "violin sonatas" are merely reductions of the piano trios. So the question becomes simply "did Joe do it or someone else?".

I will offer this as my opinion, based solely on my reading and listening to masses of Haydn materials recently; he would have had no objection at all to having these works arranged for only 2 players (or even just 1 player), but he probably din't do it himself. My 2 cents. :)

Hello Gurn - LOL! ;D I believe that I got a pretty good deal on that disc but can't remember where at the moment! But when it comes to acquiring Haydn, there seems to be no stopping, and then one wants other versions! :)

The HobXV:31 & 32 works are certainly 'trio reductions' w/ the cello eliminated - the catalog states that these dated to 1794-5, when he would have been in London the second time - guess that he could have been responsible and possibly could have played? Probably would require some detailed research of letters, etc. of the times?

I'm more curious about those other 3 works on the disc w/ that Hob.XV a N.1-3; just not sure what that 'a' means, of course, realizing that this catalog has gone through revisions - but on my brief review, I could not match up the listings w/ the keys - despite the 'controversy' the recording is still enjoyable! Dave 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 01, 2010, 03:24:04 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on March 01, 2010, 01:55:28 PM
Hello Gurn - LOL! ;D I believe that I got a pretty good deal on that disc but can't remember where at the moment! But when it comes to acquiring Haydn, there seems to be no stopping, and then one wants other versions! :)

The HobXV:31 & 32 works are certainly 'trio reductions' w/ the cello eliminated - the catalog states that these dated to 1794-5, when he would have been in London the second time - guess that he could have been responsible and possibly could have played? Probably would require some detailed research of letters, etc. of the times?

I'm more curious about those other 3 works on the disc w/ that Hob.XV a N.1-3; just not sure what that 'a' means, of course, realizing that this catalog has gone through revisions - but on my brief review, I could not match up the listings w/ the keys - despite the 'controversy' the recording is still enjoyable! Dave 8)

:D

Well, the 'a' is only a partial mystery. Notice that "Hob. I" is symphonies, while "Hob. Ia" is overtures (other orchestral works, IOW). And "Hob. XVII" is "Keyboard Works other than Sonatas", while "XVIIa" is keyboard works for 4 hands. So anyway, you can see the pattern, they are subdivisions of related genres. Now for the mystery part; I don't find a Hob XVa, so even though the implication is that it is simply another form of "Accompanied Sonata", my only guess is that it turns up only in an appendix (Anhang), the implication of that being that they are not considered authentic. :-\

BTW, I have the one in G major on a disk that has, in addition to Haydn, violin sonatas by two of his close admirers, R. Strauss and Schnittke! There's some variety for you. ;D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 02, 2010, 05:59:27 PM

As many of you know, I have been working for the last year on amassing a collection of the complete works of Haydn. Little did I know starting out the challenges that awaited me. I love that. :)

Needless to say, I still haven't got a complete collection of Haydn, it can't be done, at least not with any certainty. As I laid out earlier, with a good deal of research and a fair amount of faith, I have attempted to position things chronologically, not just because that's how my pedantic little mind works, but also because I want to get a great deal of pleasure out of listening, and having works in the order of Hoboken classes and by year, tends to give them the best shuffle I can do.

A word here about how I did some things. In the early years, when dating is uncertain (he was a bastard that way, he didn't date things >:( ) usually a range is given. So if there is a group of 12 works for the same ensemble, and the date range is given as e.g. - 1765-67, then I put 4 works in each year. This tends to make the big chunks a bit smaller, and probably is a more realistic reflection of how he composed (he was not simply going to sit down and write 24 consecutive baryton trios, he had lots of other things to do!).

So for the next few days, I am going to start posting a bit at a time. Tonight is easy, I can get the whole first decade in there (based on what I have, of course, not on what he might actually have produced). I invite your feedback, input, questions, answers, corrections, suggestions, all that stuff. I am doing this to learn some stuff. Happy to share that with anyone who wants to do the same. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Hamburg Soloists / Emil Klein - Hob 03 05 Divertimento in Eb for Strings Op 1 #5 "Op 0" 1st mvmt - Presto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 02, 2010, 06:07:59 PM

1749
Hob 22_03 Missa 'rorate coeli desuper'

1750
Hob 23_01 Missa Brevis in F
Hob 23c_5a Motets of the Holy Sacrament

1751

1752
Hob 17_07 5 Variations in D for Keyboard

1753
Hob 02_02 Divertimento in G for String Quintet
Hob 18_02 Concerto in D for Harpsichord
Hob 18_10 Concerto in C for Organ

1754
Hob 18_05 Concerto in C for Harpsichord
Hob 18_08 Concerto in C for Organ

1755

1756
Hob 18_01 Concerto in C for Organ
Hob 18_06 Concerto in F for Keyboard & Violin
Hob 23b_01 Salve Regina

1757
Hob 02_20 Divertimento in F 2 oboes, 2 Horns, 2 violins, 2 violas and bass
Hob 03_01 Divertimento in Bb for Strings Op 1 #1
Hob 03_02 Divertimento in Eb for Strings Op 1 #2
Hob 03_03 Divertimento in D for Strings Op 1 #3
Hob 03_04 Divertimento in G for Strings Op 1 #4
Hob 15_01 Trio in g for Keyboard & Strings
Hob 15_37 Trio in F for Keyboard & Strings
Hob 15_41 Trio in G for Keyboard & Strings
Hob 15_C1 Trio in C for Keyboard & Strings

1758
Hob 01_001 Symphony in D
Hob 01_037 Symphony in C
Hob 02_18 Divertimento in D for Wind Sextet
Hob 03_05 Divertimento in Eb for Strings Op 1 #5 Op 0
Hob 03_06 Divertimento in C for Strings Op 1 #6
Hob 03_07 Divertimento in A for Strings Op 2 #1

1759
Hob 01_107 Symphony in Bb
Hob 02_11 Divertimento in C for Winds & Strings
Hob 02_D5 Notturno for 2 Flutes & 2 Horns
Hob 03_08 Divertimento in E for Strings Op 2 #2
Hob 03_10 Divertimento in F for Strings Op 2 #4
Hob 03_12 Divertimento in Bb for Strings Op 2 #6
Hob 15_34 Trio in E for Piano & Strings
Hob 15_35 Trio in A for Piano & Strings

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 03, 2010, 01:07:07 AM

Nice job, Gurn! Thank you and keep it going!

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 02, 2010, 06:07:59 PM
1757
Hob 15_01 Trio in g for Keyboard & Strings
Hob 15_37 Trio in F for Keyboard & Strings
Hob 15_41 Trio in G for Keyboard & Strings
Hob 15_C1 Trio in C for Keyboard & Strings


1759
Hob 15_34 Trio in E for Piano & Strings
Hob 15_35 Trio in A for Piano & Strings

Why this difference? :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on March 03, 2010, 01:12:55 AM

My guess: you can choose between the harpsichord, clavichord and the forte-piano depending upon your mood. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 03, 2010, 01:17:25 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on March 03, 2010, 01:12:55 AM
My guess: you can choose between the harpsichord, clavichord and the forte-piano depending upon your mood. :)

This works for keyboard, but piano is different from all of the above. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on March 03, 2010, 01:21:38 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 03, 2010, 01:17:25 AM
This works for keyboard, but piano is different from all of the above. :)

When the Gurnatron says piano with reference to Haydn, he probably means the fp. ;D But I'll wait for him to confirm or refute my statement.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 03, 2010, 01:35:20 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on March 03, 2010, 01:21:38 AM
When the Gurnatron says piano with reference to Haydn, he probably means the fp. ;D

I too suspect that's what he wanted to type but had instead one of the worst Freudian slips a HIP-ster could have. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2010, 04:20:15 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 03, 2010, 01:07:07 AM
Nice job, Gurn! Thank you and keep it going!

Why this difference? :)

Thanks.

Well, totally my bad. I bought and ripped those 2 disks about a year apart and ran into some continuity issues in the tagging. In fact, all of those are played on harpsichord, which was why I eventually opted for the more generic "keyboard". :-[ Thanks for pointing it out, I'll fix it tonight. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2010, 06:07:01 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 02, 2010, 06:07:59 PM
1749
Hob 22_03 Missa 'rorate coeli desuper'

1750
Hob 23_01 Missa Brevis in F
Hob 23c_5a Motets of the Holy Sacrament

1751

1752
Hob 17_07 5 Variations in D for Keyboard

1753
Hob 02_02 Divertimento in G for String Quintet
Hob 18_02 Concerto in D for Harpsichord
Hob 18_10 Concerto in C for Organ

1754
Hob 18_05 Concerto in C for Harpsichord
Hob 18_08 Concerto in C for Organ

1755

1756
Hob 18_01 Concerto in C for Organ
Hob 18_06 Concerto in F for Keyboard & Violin
Hob 23b_01 Salve Regina

1757
Hob 02_20 Divertimento in F 2 oboes, 2 Horns, 2 violins, 2 violas and bass
Hob 03_01 Divertimento in Bb for Strings Op 1 #1
Hob 03_02 Divertimento in Eb for Strings Op 1 #2
Hob 03_03 Divertimento in D for Strings Op 1 #3
Hob 03_04 Divertimento in G for Strings Op 1 #4
Hob 15_01 Trio in g for Keyboard & Strings
Hob 15_37 Trio in F for Keyboard & Strings
Hob 15_41 Trio in G for Keyboard & Strings
Hob 15_C1 Trio in C for Keyboard & Strings

1758
Hob 01_001 Symphony in D
Hob 01_037 Symphony in C
Hob 02_18 Divertimento in D for Wind Sextet
Hob 03_05 Divertimento in Eb for Strings Op 1 #5 Op 0
Hob 03_06 Divertimento in C for Strings Op 1 #6
Hob 03_07 Divertimento in A for Strings Op 2 #1

1759
Hob 01_107 Symphony "A" in Bb
Hob 02_11 Divertimento in C for Winds & Strings
Hob 02_D5 Notturno for 2 Flutes & 2 Horns
Hob 03_08 Divertimento in E for Strings Op 2 #2
Hob 03_10 Divertimento in F for Strings Op 2 #4
Hob 03_12 Divertimento in Bb for Strings Op 2 #6
Hob 15_34 Trio in E for Piano & Strings
Hob 15_35 Trio in A for Piano & Strings

Some interesting points about the early works. His first complete work was a mass. When we get there, we will see that his last complete work was a mass also, the Harmoniemesse. In a rut, apparently... :)

Here, you also find the majority of his keyboard concerti. Some were plainly written for organ (Hob 18_01, for example) but others could have been for harpsichord equally well.

The other keyboard works, accompanied sonatas and variations, are harpsichord works. Even though there were some very early Hammerflügel and their relatives around Vienna at the time, there is no suggestion of evidence that Haydn ever saw or heard one, much less had access to one, so harpsichord is pretty much it.

By 1757-58 we see the influence of Count Morzin, his first employer. The first string quartets (divertimenti of course) date from then, and also, finally, the first symphonies. Note that Symphony #37 is actually #2, or even #1. Hoboken jumps around like a crazy monkey in the early works. :)

The hardest part about this is that I am very sure that there are more works that could fit in this time slot, but information is so thin that I don't even know what I don't have. Pity, really. :-\

Well, coming up are some years where a single year has twice the output of this entire decade! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2010, 06:16:49 AM

Well, here are the next 2 years. In 1760, we were still working for Count Morzin, but that was petering out rapidly. In 1761, our contract was optioned out to the Esterhazy team and all of a sudden the sky was the limit!

For those who don't know what a "Scherzando" is, don't feel badly. They are miniature 4 movement symphonies. Just like a full symphony with sonata first movement, minuet in its place etc. but only 7-10 minutes each. This set of 6 of them are believed to be the first things that he wrote for Prince Esterhazy, and they were sort of to show what he could do.

8)

1760
Hob 01_027 Symphony in G
Hob 01_032 Symphony in C
Hob 01_033 Symphony in C
Hob 02_01 Divertimento in G for Winds & Strings
Hob 02_15 Divertimento in F for Wind Sextet
Hob 02_16 Divertimento in F for Winds & Strings
Hob 02_22 Divertimento in D for 2 Horns & Strings
Hob 14_03 Concertino in C for Keyboard
Hob 14_07 Divertimento in C for Keyboard
Hob 14_09 Divertimento in F for Keyboard
Hob 14_11 Concertino in C for Keyboard
Hob 15_36 Trio in Eb for Keyboard & Strings
Hob 15_40 Trio in F for Keyboard & Strings
Hob 15_f1 Trio in f for Keyboard & Strings
Hob 16_01 Sonata #10 in C for Keyboard
Hob 16_02 Sonata #11 in Bb for Keyboard
Hob 16_03 Sonata #14 in C for Keyboard
Hob 16_04 Sonata #9 in D for Keyboard

1761
Hob 01_006 Symphony in D
Hob 01_007 Symphony in C
Hob 01_008 Symphony in G
Hob 01_108 Symphony B in Bb
Hob 02_14 Divertimento in C for 2 Clarinets & 2 Horns
Hob 02_33 Scherzando #1 in F
Hob 02_34 Scherzando #2 in C
Hob 02_35 Scherzando #3 in D
Hob 02_36 Scherzando #4 in G
Hob 02_37 Scherzando #5 in E
Hob 02_38 Scherzando #6 in A
Hob 07a_04 Concerto in G for Violin
Hob 24b_01 Aria for Soprano Costretta a piangere

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 03, 2010, 06:30:57 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 02, 2010, 06:07:59 PM
Hob 15_01 Trio in g for Keyboard & Strings
Hob 15_37 Trio in F for Keyboard & Strings
Hob 15_41 Trio in G for Keyboard & Strings
Hob 15_C1 Trio in C for Keyboard & Strings

1758
Hob 01_001 Symphony in D
Hob 01_037 Symphony in C
Hob 02_18 Divertimento in D for Wind Sextet
Hob 03_05 Divertimento in Eb for Strings Op 1 #5 Op 0
Hob 03_06 Divertimento in C for Strings Op 1 #6
Hob 03_07 Divertimento in A for Strings Op 2 #1

1759
Hob 01_107 Symphony in Bb
Hob 02_11 Divertimento in C for Winds & Strings
Hob 02_D5 Notturno for 2 Flutes & 2 Horns
Hob 03_08 Divertimento in E for Strings Op 2 #2
Hob 03_10 Divertimento in F for Strings Op 2 #4
Hob 03_12 Divertimento in Bb for Strings Op 2 #6
Hob 15_34 Trio in E for Piano & Strings
Hob 15_35 Trio in A for Piano & Strings

Gurn - great effort! As we discussed earlier regarding those Hob. XV 'trios', abbreviations for the keyboards and strings are used in the catalog I own (New Grove bio book) - occasionally, hpd/pf or pf indicating as you and others state that either a variety of keyboard instruments could have been chosen or the fortepiano. Looking forward to more of your posting of these works & years! Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on March 03, 2010, 06:52:52 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2010, 06:07:01 AM
By 1757-58 we see... the first symphonies. Note that Symphony #37 is actually #2, or even #1. Hoboken jumps around like a crazy monkey in the early works. :)
8)

Phew! I'm glad I caught this early. I have very little Haydn to (music file) tag right now, yet I keep shuffling between tag formats:

From <genre> in <key> [No. ,] [Op. [No. ]], Hob. / to one without the opus number.

[I even had a debate with myself whether to use Hob. #:# or Hob. #/#. I then decided on the latter since the other one would introduce yet another colon. ::) And Hob. # No. # just won't do because it would make the tag just too damn long!]

As for the symphonies, I have 21 of them, starting at No. 41 and ending up at 90 (the Weil/Tafelmusik box). I decided that only the Hoboken number would do and stuck to tagging them as Symphony in <key>, Hob. I/#. Doesn't that look nice? But now that has to change, to make way for a more consistent system when I get the early symphonies.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2010, 06:54:43 AM

Quote from: SonicMan on March 03, 2010, 06:30:57 AM
Gurn - great effort! As we discussed earlier regarding those Hob. XV 'trios', abbreviations for the keyboards and strings are used in the catalog I own (New Grove bio book) - occasionally, hpd/pf or pf indicating as you and others state that either a variety of keyboard instruments could have been chosen or the fortepiano. Looking forward to more of your posting of these works & years! Dave :)

Thanks, Dave. I was sort of torn on how to represent the keyboard. In reality what I should have done with all of them is used "Klavier", since that means keyboard generically, and was the term of the day. But the listing is made up from my actual flac & MP3 file names, and when I did them originally I started to use the actual instrument in the recording, and then I thoughtlessly backed off to just "keyboard". Well, never too late to improve. :D

I am moving slowly because I am still getting new disks nearly every day. Yesterday I got 4 operas, so ripping is a big job. And I have a couple other cantatas on the way too, so it is an ongoing process. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2010, 07:03:24 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on March 03, 2010, 06:52:52 AM
Phew! I'm glad I caught this early. I have very little Haydn to (music file) tag right now, yet I keep shuffling between tag formats:

From <genre> in <key> [No. ,] [Op. [No. ]], Hob. / to one without the opus number.

[I even had a debate with myself whether to use Hob. #:# or Hob. #/#. I then decided on the latter since the other one would introduce yet another colon. ::) And Hob. # No. # just won't do because it would make the tag just too damn long!]

As for the symphonies, I have 21 of them, starting at No. 41 and ending up at 90 (the Weil/Tafelmusik box). I decided that only the Hoboken number would do and stuck to tagging them as Symphony in <key>, Hob. I/#. Doesn't that look nice? But now that has to change, to make way for a more consistent system when I get the early symphonies.

Navneeth,
I actually spent a year thinking about how to tag and organize these things. I'm tellin' ya, Haydn'll drive you crazy! :o :o

I dumped the Roman numerals so that I could have things automatically organize numerically. I dumped the colon (which I loved) in favor of the underscore because it is an illegal character and tagging software automatically changes it anyway when you create the file name from the tag.

With the symphonies, I ended up dropping any hint of a "Symphony #XX" because even the best system (Robbins-Landon) doesn't work out right. And when you look at the 3 symphonies of 1760 and find 27, 32 & 33, and then 1761 becomes 6, 7, 8 & 108, well, obviously Hoboken is out too. ;D

I won't claim that every single item on this list is 100% accurate, but based on a heck of a lot of research I will say it is the best I can make it, barring personal errors which I am correcting as I find them. So please, make use of anything that's useful, toss out anything that isn't. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on March 03, 2010, 07:09:34 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2010, 07:03:24 AM
. . . I'm tellin' ya, Haydn'll drive you crazy! :o :o

I knew it! ; )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on March 03, 2010, 07:15:58 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2010, 07:03:24 AM
I dumped the Roman numerals so that I could have things automatically organize numerically. I dumped the colon (which I loved) in favor of the underscore because it is an illegal character and tagging software automatically changes it anyway when you create the file name from the tag.

Ooh, good idea to drop the Roman numerals! As for these guys ::::, I'd like to use them too -- it looks neat. But then, immediately after that follows ': Movt#. Tempo marking.'

Oh, and I actually use this for the Title tag; I really don't care what the file's name is.

QuoteWith the symphonies, I ended up dropping any hint of a "Symphony #XX" because even the best system (Robbins-Landon) doesn't work out right. And when you look at the 3 symphonies of 1760 and find 27, 32 & 33, and then 1761 becomes 6, 7, 8 & 108, well, obviously Hoboken is out too. ;D

I simply can't wait to get my hands on a cycle and start tagging them! ;D

Quotebased on a heck of a lot of research I will say it is the best I can make it, barring personal errors which I am correcting as I find them. So please, make use of anything that's useful, toss out anything that isn't. :)

And I'm thankful for that. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2010, 07:21:56 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 03, 2010, 07:09:34 AM
I knew it! ; )

;D

(Of course, so will Henning... just sayin'). :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2010, 07:27:17 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on March 03, 2010, 07:15:58 AM
Ooh, good idea to drop the Roman numerals! As for these guys ::::, I'd like to use them too -- it looks neat. But then, immediately after that follows ': Movt#. Tempo marking.'

Oh, and I actually use this for the Title tag; I really don't care what the file's name is.

The file name determines the position of the work if you were to copy it to CD, for example, or onto your MP3 player. That's why I always start with the number; like Mozart is K 465 followed by K 466. And Beethoven is Bia(monti) 001, 002 etc. If you start with genre, for example, then you have piano quartet following piano concerto but in front of piano sonata and piano trio. Gets sort of messy. But hey, that's just me... :D

QuoteI simply can't wait to get my hands on a cycle and start tagging them! ;D

Fischer is calling you... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on March 03, 2010, 07:38:26 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2010, 07:27:17 AM
The file name determines the position of the work if you were to copy it to CD, for example, or onto your MP3 player.

For me it's track numbers: get rid of the CD order -- arrange them by title (asc.) -- then order them from 1-whatever.

QuoteThat's why I always start with the number; like Mozart is K 465 followed by K 466.

That's what I plan to do initially with the Schubert sonatas set, because unlike the Gulda LvB set, the sonatas are not in order. >:( D numbers first, then order them as mentioned above and shift the D numbers to the end.

QuoteIf you start with genre, for example, then you have piano quartet following piano concerto but in front of piano sonata and piano trio. Gets sort of messy. But hey, that's just me... :D

Yeah, I guess that's just you. ;D

Quote
Fischer is calling you... :)

(http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/funny-pictures-beaver-cant-hear-you.jpg)

BTW, this thread is going off topic. I'll shut up now and wait for your next instalment. 0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2010, 07:53:16 AM

OK, just 3 more years for now, and then I need to a> get some work done and b> slip in some new works for the list.

1762-64 were not huge output years. To start with, he wasn't the top dog yet, he was just the Vice-Kapellmeister. And there were things to do, like getting the orchestra whipped into shape and the instruments all updated. Plus, the Prince hadn't decide yet what the best use was for his new assistant. It wasn't until 1765 that the huge years of productivity came along.

1762
Hob 01_003 Symphony in G
Hob 01_004 Symphony in D
Hob 01_005 Symphony in A
Hob 01_009 Symphony in C
Hob 07d_03 Concerto in D for Horn & 2 Oboes
Hob 28_01 Opera "Acide" First opera!

1763
Hob 01_012 Symphony in E
Hob 01_013 Symphony in D
Hob 01_036 Symphony in Eb
Hob 01_040 Symphony in F
Hob 01_072 Symphony in D
Hob 02_21 Divertimento in Eb for 2 Horns & Strings
Hob 02_D22 Cassatio in D for 4 Horns & Strings
Hob 07a_1 Concerto in C for Violin
Hob 07a_3 Concerto in A for Violin
Hob 07b_1 Concerto in C for Cello
Hob 16_05 Sonata #8 in A for Keyboard
Hob 23a_G 09 Motet O coelitum beati
Hob 23b_03 Ave Regina
Hob 24a_02 Cantata in G Destatevi, o miei fidi

1764
Hob 01_002 Symphony in C
Hob 01_014 Symphony in A
Hob 01_015 Symphony in D
Hob 01_021 Symphony in A
Hob 01_022 Symphony in Eb
Hob 01_023 Symphony in G
Hob 01_024 Symphony in D
Hob 14_04 Divertimento in C for Keyboard
Hob 24a_03 Cantata in C Al Tuo arrivo felice
Hob 24a_04 Cantata in A Qual dubbio ormai

As you will see, this pales in comparison to the next several years. I am going to have to do 1765-72 one year at a time!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Franco on March 03, 2010, 08:03:34 AM

This is all new to me - I've never studied the Hob. numbeirng system, but it seems very deficient as a chronological system.

Am I correct in thinking that if you wanted to hear the symphonies in the order they were composed, you'd have to create your own list based on Hob 1 - and then numbering according to date of composition?

What was the basis for why Hob is numbered as it is?

(I guess I could Wiki this ...)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2010, 08:11:19 AM

Quote from: Franco on March 03, 2010, 08:03:34 AM
This is all new to me - I've never studied the Hob. numbeirng system, but it seems very deficient as a chronological system.

Am I correct in thinking that if you wanted to hear the symphonies in the order they were composed, you'd have to create your own list based on Hob 1 - and then numbering according to date of composition?

What was the basis for why Hob is numbered as it is?

(I guess I could Wiki this ...)

Hoboken did the best he could with what was known in his time. Unfortunately, that was little or nothing. :-\ So really, his numbers are very unreliable. And as far as chronology goes, I don't think that was a factor for him. It's possible (my speculation) that he was going by style for dating purposes, and we all know how dangerous that can be.

The numbering of the symphonies comes from a list compiled back in the early 20th century (although I disremember the compiler's name), and Hoboken simply adopted it in its entirety. The later ones, after <>75 are pretty much correct. But the piano trios (Group 15 (XV)) are all over the map! Landon was the first to bring order from chaos, but Hoboken was already widely disseminated by then so it was never displaced. More's the pity. So we just work with what we have to work with and carry on. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2010, 08:18:59 AM

Quote from: Franco on March 03, 2010, 08:03:34 AM

What was the basis for why Hob is numbered as it is?

Well, the essence of it is that he divide the works according to its genre and/or instrumentation.

So this is what we end up with:

Symphonies I 1-108
Overtures      Ia 1-16
Divertimenti in 4 and more Parts    II 1-47
String Quartets    III 1-83b
Divertimenti in 3 Parts    IV 1-11
String Trios    V 1-21
Various Duos    VI 1-6
Concerti for Various Instruments    VII
Marches    VIII 1-7
Dances    IX 1-29
Various Works for Baryton    X 1-12
Trios for Baryton, Violin or Viola, Cello    XI 1-126
Duos with Baryton    XII 1-25
Divertimenti with Piano    XIV 1-13
Trios with Piano, Violin or Flute, Cello    XV 1-40
Piano Sonatas    XVI 1-52
Piano Pieces    XVII 1-12
Piano 4 Hands    XVIIa 1-2
Piano Concerti    XVIII 1-11
Pieces for Mechanical Clock (Flötenuhr)    XIX 1-32
Instrumental Works about The Seven Last Words    XX
Oratorios    XXI 1-3
Masses    XXII 1-14
Other Sacred Works    XXIII
Cantatas and Arias with Orchestra    XXIV
2, 3, and 4 Part Songs    XXV
Songs and Cantatas with Piano    XXVI
Canons    XXVII Sacred 1-10 Secular 1-47
Operas    XXVIII 1-13

There more little groups that fall between the gaps too. But this is the basic layout.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Franco on March 03, 2010, 08:26:26 AM

Many thanks Gurn - this is very helpful.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2010, 01:21:40 PM

Just have time for one more year. It is the first of the really big years, although not the biggest year in terms of production.

1765
Hob 01_017 Symphony in F
Hob 01_028 Symphony in A
Hob 01_029 Symphony in E
Hob 01_030 Symphony in C
Hob 01_031 Symphony in D
Hob 01_034 Symphony in d

Hob 02_07 Divertimento in C for Wind Sextet
Hob 02_11 Divertimento in C for Winds & Strings
Hob 02_17 Cassatio a 9 in C
Hob 02_23 Divertimento in F for Wind Sextet

Hob 05_07 Trio in A for Strings
Hob 05_11 Trio in Eb for Strings
Hob 05_21 Trio in D for Strings

Hob 11_001 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1The first of the baryton trios. It took 1.5 years to write Book 1
Hob 11_002 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_003 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_004 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_005 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_006 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_007 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_008 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_009 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_010 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_011 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_012 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1

Hob 12_19 12 Cassations for 2 Barytons & Violone

Hob 14_05 Sonata #28 in D for Keyboard
Hob 14_12 Concertino in C for Keyboard
Hob 14_13 Divertimento in G for Keyboard
Hob 14_C2 Divertimento in C for Keyboard

Hob 16_44 Sonata #32 in g for Keyboard A nice period for keyboard works
Hob 16_45 Sonata #29 in Eb for Keyboard
Hob 16_46 Sonata #31 in Ab for Keyboard

Hob 17_01 Capriccio in G for Keyboard

Hob 23c_1 Te Deum in C

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 03, 2010, 04:15:54 PM

Gurn - quite a productive year for Papa Joe! Below a quote describing Haydn's marriage - now we know that both of them 'played around', Joe probably more than his wife (is there a book on this topic? ;D).

But, in that kind of marriage, would one want to 'stay at the office' doing whatever (of course, in Haydn's case writing music) rather than retire to his 'home' to be w/ his wife? Thus, was his amazingly large output of music related to his job, his own ambitions, or a reason to avoid being around his wife? This thought has crossed my mind for a number of years now - likely a combination, but of interest - Dave :D

QuoteIn 1760, Haydn married Maria Anna Aloysia Apollonia Keller. Interestingly, Haydn had originally preferred Maria's sister Josepha, but when Josepha entered a convent, Haydn's romantic hopes were put to rest. All indications are that Haydn's marriage to Maria was an unhappy one. There were no children and Maria had little interest in Haydn's talents.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2010, 05:08:52 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on March 03, 2010, 04:15:54 PM
Gurn - quite a productive year for Papa Joe! Below a quote describing Haydn's marriage - now we know that both of them 'played around', Joe probably more than his wife (is there a book on this topic? ;D).

But, in that kind of marriage, would one want to 'stay at the office' doing whatever (of course, in Haydn's case writing music) rather than retire to his 'home' to be w/ his wife? Thus, was his amazingly large output of music related to his job, his own ambitions, or a reason to avoid being around his wife? This thought has crossed my mind for a number of years now - likely a combination, but of interest - Dave :D

Yes, it certainly was. Pales in comparison to 1766 though. :o In fact, I don't think I have all the works from 1766 and it's still huge.

One would have to consider that the amount of work that he took on had to affect his marriage to some extent. I haven't read any book that addresses the marriage issue more than in passing though. I do know that he called her The Infernal Beast in his letters to others, so I don't see a lot of affection there. :) And for her part, she simply didn't like music, not necessarily his music, and so was oblivious to his talent beyond what material advantage she could gain from it. Late in life he sort of went over the top in his various schemes to make her miserable; for example, she had greatly admired a house (I believe it is the one that he retired to in Gumpendorf), so he bought it and moved into it, but never allowed her to set foot in it. Probably a bit on the petty side, but then, there is no telling how miserable she made him. It was more than a little, I think. :-\

8)

----------------
Listening to:
L'Estro Armonico / Solomons - Hob 01 037 Symphony in C 1st mvmt - Presto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 08, 2010, 07:35:05 AM

Well, moving along to 1766, it is the first full year of being Top Dog, Big Cheese, Head Honcho... Kapellmeister! :)

And clearly the demands were higher too, as can be seen from this list. There is still stuff that I know to be missing from my collection from this year, like the (fragmentary) opera "La Cantarina" ("The Diva") for example. And a few more string trios. But this is still a pretty imposing list, IMO:

1766
Hob 01_010 Symphony in D
Hob 01_016 Symphony in Bb
Hob 01_018 Symphony in G
Hob 01_019 Symphony in D
Hob 01_020 Symphony in C
Hob 01_025 Symphony in C

Hob 02_03 Divertimento in G for Wind Sextet

Hob 05_16 Trio in C for Strings
Hob 05_17 Trio in Eb for Strings
Hob 05_20 Trio in G for Strings

Hob 09_04 Six Minuetti di Ballo

Hob 10_11 Duet in D for 2 Barytons

Hob 11_013 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_014 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_015 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_016 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_017 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_018 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_019 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_020 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_021 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_022 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_023 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_024 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1

Hob 11_025 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_026 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_027 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_028 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_029 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_030 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2

Hob 12_01 Duet in A for 2 Barytons
Hob 12_03 & 5 Duet in D for 2 Barytons
Hob 12_04 Duet in G for 2 Barytons

Hob 15_38 Trio in Bb for Fortepiano & Strings

Hob 16_06 Sonata #13 in G for Keyboard
Hob 16_07 Sonata #2 in D for Keyboard
Hob 16_08 Sonata #1 in G for Keyboard
Hob 16_09 Sonata #3 in F for Keyboard
Hob 16_12 Sonata #12 in A for Keyboard
Hob 16_43 Sonata #35 in Ab for Keyboard
Hob 16_47 Sonata #19 in e for Keyboard
Hob 16_G1 Sonata #4 in G for Keyboard

Hob 17_D1 Sonata #7 in D for Keyboard

Hob 18_03 Concerto in F for Keyboard

Hob 22_04 Missa in honorem BVM
Hob 22_05 'Missa Cellensis'

Overall, a very good year. And I would point out that the so-called "Stürm und Dräng" started out, not with the symphonies that we all know so well, but with some of these keyboard sonatas. I would recommend that you pull out your set, whoever it may be by, and get away from the late sonatas for a bit, and go back past the galant works of the mid 1770's, and give these a serious listen. The vile canard about Haydn's early works will soon be forgotten. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 08, 2010, 09:39:43 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 08, 2010, 07:35:05 AM
would recommend that you pull out your set, whoever it may be by

BTW, any comments on this set?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41DF3SPu6VL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 08, 2010, 09:58:28 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 08, 2010, 09:39:43 AM
BTW, any comments on this set?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41DF3SPu6VL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

No, I don't have it. The only set I have on modern piano is McCabe. However, I encourage people to concentrate more on the music than the performer and give a listen to some of the less well-known items too. I think that if people prefer modern piano to (well, it would be harpsichord in the case of 1766) fortepiano, then it would be a distraction for them to get used to the sound instead of concentrating on the music. Someone told me once that Buchbinder could really play the piano well. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 08, 2010, 06:28:24 PM

Quote from: Florestan on March 08, 2010, 09:39:43 AM
BTW, any comments on this set?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41DF3SPu6VL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnBuchbinder/482184023_8PZaK-O.jpg)

Hi Andrei - I own that set in different packaging (picture added above, right) - I've not listened to the box in a while but enjoyed (and have kept in my collection - not many other options on a modern piano!) - the performances are quite good the sound less (from the 1970s IIRC) - however, at a good price, a worthy consideration.

I also have the same works w/ Brautigam & Schornsheim on period instruments - of the 3 sets of these works that I own, the period instruments seem to be the most appropriate for Haydn's keyboard works of the 18th century, and of those two boxes that I own, I think that Brautigam is my favorite choice at the moment; just love his way w/ that 'wooden frame' piano! :D

Now having made the statements above, I just acquired the M-A Hamelin recordings of the 'selected' Haydn recordings shown below on a modern piano; Hamelin's touch on the instrument is quite different from the many later 19th century of his recordings (e.g. Alkan & the Hyperion Piano Concerto series) - he plays w/ a more delicate deft touch that makes his 'modern' piano sound more like fortepiano performances - these CDs have received 'mixed' reviews and I need a few more listenings; but just another consideration - Dave :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnPSonsBrautigam/747616974_qcvoA-O.jpg) (http://img174.imageshack.us/img174/4678/2850719pj6.jpg)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnPSHamlenV1/798913894_HNFKq-S.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnPSHamlenV2/798913910_PVdAx-S.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 09, 2010, 01:13:17 AM

Thank you, gentlemen!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 09, 2010, 04:56:48 AM

Quote from: SonicMan on March 08, 2010, 06:28:24 PM
Hi Andrei - I own that set in different packaging (picture added above, right) - I've not listened to the box in a while but enjoyed (and have kept in my collection - not many other options on a modern piano!) - the performances are quite good the sound less (from the 1970s IIRC) - however, at a good price, a worthy consideration.

I also have the same works w/ Brautigam & Schornsheim on period instruments - of the 3 sets of these works that I own, the period instruments seem to be the most appropriate for Haydn's keyboard works of the 18th century, and of those two boxes that I own, I think that Brautigam is my favorite choice at the moment; just love his way w/ that 'wooden frame' piano! :D

Now having made the statements above, I just acquired the M-A Hamelin recordings of the 'selected' Haydn recordings shown below on a modern piano; Hamelin's touch on the instrument is quite different from the many later 19th century of his recordings (e.g. Alkan & the Hyperion Piano Concerto series) - he plays w/ a more delicate deft touch that makes his 'modern' piano sound more like fortepiano performances - these CDs have received 'mixed' reviews and I need a few more listenings; but just another consideration - Dave :D

Dave,
You've really expanded! Well, I have (and recommend) the Schornsheim, and ditto the van Oort set from Brilliant. I have all the Brautigam from after 1780, and mainly I replaced the late works with his versions because they just have more joie de vivre to them. If you have no objections to use of a hammerklavier throughout the set (and why should you? I'm the one who's OC about that stuff. :D ), then that's the investment to make. I am happy to use Schornsheim in the earlier works though, I think she really shines on harpsichord.

As much as I've listened to of the Oort set so far has been very rewarding. Bart ages well. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 09, 2010, 06:08:54 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 09, 2010, 04:56:48 AM
... and ditto the van Oort set from Brilliant.

As much as I've listened to of the Oort set so far has been very rewarding. Bart ages well. :)

Hi, Gurn. Are you talking about that 5-CD set with variations, fantasies, dances and the Seven Last Words?

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on March 09, 2010, 06:15:49 AM

And if anyone is interested, Amazon.com is selling the MP3 of Schornscheim set -- all 14-CDs-worth -- for $17.98.*

*As of 15:15 UTC, 9 March, 2010.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 09, 2010, 06:16:16 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 09, 2010, 06:08:54 AM
Hi, Gurn. Are you talking about that 5-CD set with variations, fantasies, dances and the Seven Last Words?

:)

Well, that and the sonata set that he contributed to. The variations, fantasies etc. came with the Big Box, and so did the sonatas. I am nobly moving forward with the whole box, although it is a challenge! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Franco on March 09, 2010, 06:23:43 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on March 09, 2010, 06:15:49 AM
And if anyone is interested, Amazon.com is selling the MP3 of Schornscheim set -- all 14-CDs-worth -- for $17.98.*

*As of 15:15 UTC, 9 March, 2010.

I thought I could beat that deal when I saw this set Haydn: Piano Sonatas Complete [Box set]
Bart van Oort (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Complete-Bart-van-Oort/dp/B00008US1G/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1268147919&sr=1-8) in a MP3 download for $2.79 - but when I checked, I found this item was what was being offered:

The Piano
by Bart (http://www.amazon.com/The-Piano/dp/B0037J97A0/ref=dm_cd_album_lnk_alt?ie=UTF8&qid=1268147919&sr=1-8) (total sound da freek remix)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on March 09, 2010, 06:31:46 AM

Quote from: Franco on March 09, 2010, 06:23:43 AM
I thought I could beat that deal when I saw this set Haydn: Piano Sonatas Complete [Box set]
Bart van Oort (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Complete-Bart-van-Oort/dp/B00008US1G/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1268147919&sr=1-8) in a MP3 download for $2.79 - but when I checked, I found this item was what was being offered:

The Piano
by Bart (http://www.amazon.com/The-Piano/dp/B0037J97A0/ref=dm_cd_album_lnk_alt?ie=UTF8&qid=1268147919&sr=1-8) (total sound da freek remix)

:-X <-- Consider that as a proxy for the about-to-puke emoticon.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 09, 2010, 06:32:04 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 09, 2010, 06:16:16 AM
Well, that and the sonata set that he contributed to. The variations, fantasies etc. came with the Big Box, and so did the sonatas. I am nobly moving forward with the whole box, although it is a challenge! :)

8)

I see. That set (the piano sonatas on Brilliant) is rather underrated, I think because the people has the superstition of complete cycles performed by just one artist... But this one is really excellent... :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 09, 2010, 06:38:23 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 09, 2010, 06:32:04 AM
I see. That set (the piano sonatas on Brilliant) is rather underrated, I think because the people has the superstition of complete cycles performed by just one artist... But this one is really excellent... :)

Yes, quite agree. I haven't heard anything yet that was poorly done or deserving of scathing abuse. I picked a disk by each of the contributors and introduced myself to them. They did well. I doubt that I would be on board with the 'single artist' theory.

Of course, I do like the way that Schornsheim plays different, appropriate instruments in her set. I have grown to appreciate that set more and more as time goes by.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 09, 2010, 08:47:28 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 09, 2010, 04:56:48 AM
Dave,
You've really expanded! Well, I have (and recommend) the Schornsheim, and ditto the van Oort set from Brilliant. I have all the Brautigam from after 1780, and mainly I replaced the late works with his versions because they just have more joie de vivre to them. If you have no objections to use of a hammerklavier throughout the set (and why should you? I'm the one who's OC about that stuff. :D ), then that's the investment to make. I am happy to use Schornsheim in the earlier works though, I think she really shines on harpsichord.

As much as I've listened to of the Oort set so far has been very rewarding. Bart ages well. :)

8)

Hi Gurn - yep, the last couple of years I've been adding some 'multiple' interpretations to my collection, mainly from the classical era, but also some symphonic output from the 19th & 20th centuries - at the moment 'culling & adding' to my JS Bach works - usually have just 2-3 different sets, although w/ Haydn & Mozart, I've gone up to 4 different ones of certain works! Of course, I completely blame this forum! ;) :D

Concerning the Haydn keyboard works, I'm happy w/ the period instrument packages; added the Buchbinder for a 'modern' piano - good reviews & price when I bought; older recordings so sound could be better, and also a reason to give Hamelin a try - love him in his more modern repertoire and still undecided on his Haydn; however, the 4 discs were a 'steal' from that French place w/ the winter sale recently! Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 09, 2010, 11:25:00 AM

Currently reading the March-April 2010 issue of Fanfare - James North has a lengthy review of the Buchberger Quartet performances, which is reprinted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=225322) for those interested - this group has been both applauded and berated in this thread - this current review is quite positive - provided FYI - :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 09, 2010, 05:52:04 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on March 09, 2010, 08:47:28 AM
... also a reason to give Hamelin a try - love him in his more modern repertoire and still undecided on his Haydn; however, the 4 discs were a 'steal' from that French place w/ the winter sale recently! Dave :)

I just listened to one of those Hamelin's discs, but I felt it totally and irremediably unidiomatic. IMO, if the modern piano is the thing, Brendel (4 CDs) and Schiff (2 CDs) are by far better options than Hamelin... But, I know, that sale on Abeille Musique was irresistible. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 10, 2010, 07:21:56 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 09, 2010, 05:52:04 PM
I just listened to one of those Hamelin's discs, but I felt it totally and irremediably unidiomatic. IMO, if the modern piano is the thing, Brendel (4 CDs) and Schiff (2 CDs) are by far better options than Hamelin... But, I know, that sale on Abeille Musique was irresistible. :D

Antoine,
I guess that shows that it takes more than magic fingers to succeed in some types of music. No knock on Hamelin, I know he is an outstanding technical pianist, but Haydn demands an approach in which virtuosity is not the main ingredient.

I wish that I could work up even a passing interest in hearing some Haydn on a modern piano, I bet I would like that Brendel OK. I certainly like his playing in other composers. But I am very content with players that few ever heard of, the music is better off for it, IMO. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 10, 2010, 07:34:37 AM

So to continue now with 1767, lot's of nice works in this year, including the first Stürm und Dräng Symphonies. For the Divertimento a tré, Haydn reputedly had the best 4 horn players in Austria or Hungary working for him at the time, and he took advantage of it with some symphonies (like #31 - "Hornsignal") and other works too. It would probably be until Mozart wrote his concertos for Leutgeb before anyone composed music for the horn which was that level. The Stabat Mater, BTW, is the work by which Haydn became known in France. It received many, many performances there and opened the door for his symphonic music with people like Gossec. :)

8)

1767
Hob 01_035 Symphony in Bb The first 2 Stürm und Dräng Symphonies
Hob 01_058 Symphony in F

Hob 04_05 Divertimento à Tre in Eb for Horn, Violin & Cello
Reputed to be the most difficult horn part in the repertoire

Hob 05_03 Trio in c for Strings
Hob 05_04 Trio in Eb for Strings
Hob 05_12 Trio in Eb for Strings

Hob 11_031 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_032 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_033 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_034 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_035 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_036 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_037 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_038 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_039 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_040 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_041 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_042 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_043 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_044 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_045 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_046 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_047 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_048 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2

Hob 16_10 Sonata #6 in C for Keyboard Series of nice sonatas continues
Hob 16_11 Sonata #5 in G for Keyboard
Hob 16_13 Sonata #15 in E for Keyboard
Hob 16_14 Sonata #16 in D for Keyboard
Hob 16_16 Sonata in Eb for Keyboard
Hob 16_18 Sonata #20 in Bb for Keyboard
Hob 16_19 Sonata #30 in D for Keyboard

Hob 20bis Stabat mater for Solo Voices, Chorus & Orchestra First church work in a long time, and a really major work that rivals Pergolesi's on the same text

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on March 10, 2010, 01:38:13 PM

Howdy, y'all. With the exception of a few works (the London Trios, The Creation, some of the later symphonies), I've tended to respect Haydn more than actually liking him. Something seems to be changing, however, and I'm enjoying his music more than ever these days. I've an interest in his "piano" concertos, and since I don't really much care for the sound of the pianoforte, am casting about for a recording to start with. Am considering Ax or Andsnes's single discs with the D major and F major concertos. Opinions? Other recommendations?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 10, 2010, 03:46:23 PM

Quote from: DavidRoss on March 10, 2010, 01:38:13 PM
Howdy, y'all. With the exception of a few works (the London Trios, The Creation, some of the later symphonies), I've tended to respect Haydn more than actually liking him. Something seems to be changing, however, and I'm enjoying his music more than ever these days. I've an interest in his "piano" concertos, and since I don't really much care for the sound of the pianoforte, am casting about for a recording to start with. Am considering Ax or Andsnes's single discs with the D major and F major concertos. Opinions? Other recommendations?

Hi David - glad that you're visiting this thread! :D Regarding the number of classical music discs that I own (mainly because of 'box sets'), Haydn heads my list (probably followed by JS Bach & Mozart) - I started out years ago w/ the usual 'modern' instrument performances, but have gravitated to 'period instruments' for Papa Joe - I still have a mixture but am acquiring more of the instrumentation that likely was available to him in the 18th century.

This took a while for me and I had to obtain recordings of these instruments that sounded good - this has greatly improved in recent years - I think that if you want to get into Haydn, then this becomes a major decision to make, i.e. giving him a try on the instruments of his time, and plenty 'good' recordings have become available.

Now, concerning your original question above, I had owned Pletnev on a 2-CD set on Virgin w/ the Concertos & some Sonatas but decided to go the way of 'period' instruments; my current Piano Concertos holdings are shown below - both of which I enjoy.

I guess that my 'bottom line' is that you really need to hear Haydn in both instrumental formats - took me a number of years, but I've become converted to enjoying these older instrumental performances, and I think if you stick to Haydn w/ modern and BIG orchestras that the composer is completely lost in the din - but hey just my feelings - glad that you are here & hope that you contribute - your opinions are always welcomed! Dave :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Dp3JY%2BLzL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnPCsB/569123991_QNsna-S.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on March 10, 2010, 04:27:55 PM

Thanks for the tip, Dave. I'm listening to the Brautigam recording via Naxos at this moment, and I'm liking it very much! The balance is great, the timbres lovely, even the pianoforte, and the playing of both Brautigam and the orchestra is vibrant and lovely. This may just be the issue to tempt me into another of those spendy but often worth it BIS records!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 10, 2010, 04:29:36 PM

Hey, David, glad you decided to drop by and de-cloak. :)

I understand your reticence vis-a-vis period instruments; it mirrors my own, reciprocally. The only modern concerto disk I have is Ax with the Franz Liszt CO. I am playing it right now, as you can see, primarily to refresh my memory about it. I know I liked it a lot back when I got it, but it has been a few years now since I listened to it. Too bad for me, it's a really nice performance. I think highly of Ax anyway, I like the Beethoven stuff he has done with Zinman. Anyway, I wouldn't be embarrassed to recommend this disk to anyone (except a fortepiano fan). :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Emanuel Ax: Franz Liszt Chamber Orchestra - Haydn: Piano Concerto #3 In F, H 18/3 - 2. Largo cantabile

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 10, 2010, 04:42:33 PM

Although it is damned difficult to not go along with Dave's rec's. I have both those disks and like them. The Brautigam is clearly the 'manlier' version, the same is true of their respective sonata performances. But the thing is that Brautigam has the nicest sounding fortepianos around. Very, very few (possibly Immerseel) have as nice an instrument, and that makes a big difference in the final outcome, especially for people who are weaning themselves over. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Emanuel Ax: Franz Liszt Chamber Orchestra - Haydn: Piano Concerto #4 In G, H 18/4 - 1. Allegro moderato

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 10, 2010, 05:39:03 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 10, 2010, 07:21:56 AM
I wish that I could work up even a passing interest in hearing some Haydn on a modern piano, I bet I would like that Brendel OK. I certainly like his playing in other composers. But I am very content with players that few ever heard of, the music is better off for it, IMO. :)

Hi, Gurn. As you can suppose by now ;), I also prefer period instruments in Haydn and have a weak spot for those almost unknown artists performing on small labels. But Brendel is special in Haydn; so special that if you, for example, have only listened to his Beethoven, just to mention a capital name, you will never suspect how warmth and intimate is his Haydn... But obviously there are many nice recordings under the sun and we must exercise our free will to make decisions. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 10, 2010, 05:44:36 PM

Quote from: DavidRoss on March 10, 2010, 04:27:55 PM
I'm listening to the Brautigam recording via Naxos at this moment, and I'm liking it very much!

As the label Capriccio is also available on the Naxos site, you can listen to Christine Schornsheim there. Although she is certainly a more radical HIP experience. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 10, 2010, 05:44:57 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 10, 2010, 05:39:03 PM
Hi, Gurn. As you can suppose by now ;), I also prefer period instruments in Haydn and have a weak spot for those almost unknown artists performing on small labels. But Brendel is special in Haydn; so special that if you, for example, have only listened to his Beethoven, just to mention a capital name, you will never suspect how warmth and intimate is his Haydn... But obviously there are many nice recordings under the sun and we must exercise our free will to make decisions. :)

Antoine,
Yes that certainly seems to be the consensus, and no doubt correct too. Maybe someday I will see it for sale and in a moment of weakness I will break down and make it mine. Maybe the best thing I ever did for myself, who can say? :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood - Hob 01 022 Symphony in Eb 2nd mvmt - Presto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 11, 2010, 12:56:17 AM

Quote from: DavidRoss on March 10, 2010, 01:38:13 PM
Howdy, y'all. With the exception of a few works (the London Trios, The Creation, some of the later symphonies), I've tended to respect Haydn more than actually liking him. Something seems to be changing, however, and I'm enjoying his music more than ever these days. I've an interest in his "piano" concertos, and since I don't really much care for the sound of the pianoforte, am casting about for a recording to start with. Am considering Ax or Andsnes's single discs with the D major and F major concertos. Opinions? Other recommendations?

This one:

(http://www.emiclassics.com/pack_image.php?icpn=0077774932424&size=190)

Purists like Gurn might not like it, admittedly, but if you'd like to hear Haydn bordering on Early Romanticism do give it a try. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 11, 2010, 04:27:08 AM

The picture doesn't seem to work, Florestan, what recording it it?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 11, 2010, 04:32:42 AM

Piano Concertos Nos. 4 & 11

Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli / Edmond de Stoutz / Zuericher Kammerorchester

EMI

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 11, 2010, 05:03:15 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 11, 2010, 04:32:42 AM
Piano Concertos Nos. 4 & 11

Arturo Benedetti Michelangeli / Edmond de Stoutz / Zuericher Kammerorchester

EMI

Ah. Well, you're right, it wouldn't be MY style, but I wouldn't deny the obvious musicality potential there. Michelangeli is a hell of a pianist, IMO. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 11, 2010, 05:53:18 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 09, 2010, 05:52:04 PM
I just listened to one of those Hamelin's discs, but I felt it totally and irremediably unidiomatic. IMO, if the modern piano is the thing, Brendel (4 CDs) and Schiff (2 CDs) are by far better options than Hamelin... But, I know, that sale on Abeille Musique was irresistible. :D

Now, Antoine has rather glibly dismissed M-A Hamelin in his performances of the Haydn Piano Sonatas - now I own probably a half dozen discs or more of him doing 19th & 20th century piano music (hard to beat!) and have seen him in person (kind of a John Henry driving railroad spikes but on the piano - he was phenomenal!) - thus, not a pianist to be 'thrown by the wayside' in his exploring an earlier century?

For the past few nights, I've been listening to the Haydn 'keyboard sonatas' on modern piano, both my Buchbinder 'complete' collection & the Hamelin 4 discs. First, the Buchbinder recordings are quite well done - his performances are excellent, but the sound despite the mid-1970s recording dates is still not too bad - I'd agree w/ Jed Distler's Review HERE (http://www.classicstoday.com/review.asp?ReviewNum=11051), i.e. not a bad choice for a 'box set', esp. if the price is right!

Now, Marc-Andre Hamelin has received a LOT of mixed comments on his performances of many of these works (4 discs!) - e.g. on Amazon, the first set received an overall 4* rating HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Piano-Sonatas-Franz-Joseph/dp/B000N2H832/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1268351972&sr=1-2) w/ a lot of 5* admiriers, but a few 'unhappy campers' w/ lowly comments (I'm assuming that Antoine would be in that camp?). But, there have been some superlative reviews from others - MusicWeb HERE (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/Feb09/Haydn_Hamelin_cda67554.htm) and excellent Fanfare reviews (which I'll be glad to attach in another post for those interested). Bottom line is that the Hamelin recordings are considered 'strong contenders' in the modern piano approach to these works!

Now, I'm currently doing my 3rd listening of Hamelin - I'm biased since I really like this 'Piano Hulk'! - he has to be seen to believed. But, whether these performances are 'idiomatic' or not depends on what defines Haydn's style at the time; unfortunately, only Papa Joe could answer that question after listening to the many performers that have been already discussed in these works. Hamelin brings a 'freshness' and his own personality to these compositions which I'm enjoying after multiple hearings. Are his recordings for everyone? I don't know - still love Brautigam - however, I would say that if one is looking for several or more discs of these works on a 'modern piano', Hamelin is a MUST listen - he may not be your preference but remains a force to consider - the DEBATE continues! :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnBuchbinder/482184023_8PZaK-S.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnPSHamlenV1/798913894_HNFKq-S.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnPSHamlenV2/798913910_PVdAx-S.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on March 12, 2010, 12:56:59 AM

SonicMan: If you like "Piano Hulk" in Haydn (unless you just mean MAH's ridiculous skill & speed which I've once observed sitting diagonally behind him as he played Godowski-Chopin Etude Variations), you should check out Tzimon Barto's Haydn disc. http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/best-recordings-of-2008-almost-list.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/best-recordings-of-2008-almost-list.html).

To all Schornsheim-lovers (or haters, or neutrals).

Are there any questions you would like to ask her (have her asked)??

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 12, 2010, 04:48:35 AM

Quote from: SonicMan on March 11, 2010, 05:53:18 PM
Now, Antoine has rather glibly dismissed M-A Hamelin in his performances of the Haydn Piano Sonatas - ...

Now, Marc-Andre Hamelin has received a LOT of mixed comments on his performances of many of these works (4 discs!) - e.g. on Amazon, the first set received an overall 4* rating HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Piano-Sonatas-Franz-Joseph/dp/B000N2H832/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1268351972&sr=1-2) w/ a lot of 5* admiriers, but a few 'unhappy campers' w/ lowly comments (I'm assuming that Antoine would be in that camp?). But, there have been some superlative reviews from others - MusicWeb HERE (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/Feb09/Haydn_Hamelin_cda67554.htm) and excellent Fanfare reviews (which I'll be glad to attach in another post for those interested). Bottom line is that the Hamelin recordings are considered 'strong contenders' in the modern piano approach to these works!

Now, I'm currently doing my 3rd listening of Hamelin - I'm biased since I really like this 'Piano Hulk'! - he has to be seen to believed. But, whether these performances are 'idiomatic' or not depends on what defines Haydn's style at the time; unfortunately, only Papa Joe could answer that question after listening to the many performers that have been already discussed in these works. Hamelin brings a 'freshness' and his own personality to these compositions which I'm enjoying after multiple hearings. Are his recordings for everyone? I don't know - still love Brautigam - however, I would say that if one is looking for several or more discs of these works on a 'modern piano', Hamelin is a MUST listen - he may not be your preference but remains a force to consider - the DEBATE continues! :)

Well, I suppose this is just another demonstration -if it were necessary- about how different the tastes can be sometimes, even among people who generally love similar music and artists. It is not doubtful for me that Dave is a sensitive Haydnian, but I would swear in any court, at any time, at any place, that Hamelin plays the most unidiomatic and insensitive Haydn that I have listened to in a long time and, IMO, the stylistic testimony of our beloved Haydn would be not necessary to prove it; even the brief excerpts on Amazon are an eloquent proof IMO.

But this debate will be short in my case because Hamelin's performances cause on me an instantaneous aesthetic rejection: his Haydn is not my Haydn at all (or more exactly I don't recognize Haydn there) and I am not planning to hear another disc of this cycle.

BTW, my impressions about him are almost exactly the same expressed by the "unhappy campers" on Amazon, especially the reviewer J. Renouf. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 12, 2010, 05:29:33 AM

The whole Hamelin 'controversy' is actually quite fascinating. I generally love most of what HAmelin does. I am not particularly familiar with Haydn's sonatas, so I snatched the first set up quickly to check them out. I found my mind wandering and I never could seem to get through them. I don't know enough about these works yet to know why, but I can say that I have picked up Pletnev and Ax, and I really liked both much better. I found myself engaged and wanted repeat listenings. Sometimes a particular approach just doesn't click for some reason.

I recenly picked up the Jando set to experience more of them (the sonatas).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 12, 2010, 05:46:39 AM

Thank you gentleman for your comments on Haydn & Hamelin - now as should be clear, I do prefer my 'period' performances and will likely have Brautigam spinning when I want to hear these works; although I've not done enough comparison listening between Buchbinder & Hamelin, the former is likely more to my taste, if a modern piano is to be used; but still does not distract from the latter's skills and aplomb on that modern instrument, even if misdirected in Haydn.

But for those still 'wondering' about what performances to hear, buy, or avoid, I've attached the two reviews of the Hamelin sets from Fanfare; two different reviewers and as expected different opinions. This is starting to sound like arguing over what kind of chili or barbecue one may prefer - but that's another thread! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 12, 2010, 05:58:38 AM

Quote from: SonicMan on March 12, 2010, 05:46:39 AM
Thank you gentleman for your comments on Haydn & Hamelin - now as should be clear, I do prefer my 'period' performances and will likely have Brautigam spinning when I want to hear these works; although I've not done enough comparison listening between Buchbinder & Hamelin, the former is likely more to my taste, if a modern piano is to be used; but still does not distract from the latter's skills and aplomb on that modern instrument, even if misdirected in Haydn.

But for those still 'wondering' about what performances to hear, buy, or avoid, I've attached the two reviews of the Hamelin sets from Fanfare; two different reviewers and as expected different opinions. This is starting to sound like arguing over what kind of chili or barbecue one may prefer - but that's another thread! ;D

Perhaps not a discussion for here, but what terrible reviews. The first spends all this time on extraneous stuff. Perhaps interesting, perhaps not, but has no seeming connection to the review. And the second really ticked me off. Can anyone say BIAS! I hate it when reviewers start with stupid comments like Haydn is inappropriate for modern pianos and such things (as if there is only way to hear them). Ok, I'll stop ranting now... I'll interupt my Svendsen symphony with a Haydn Piano Concerto! That should put a swing in my step... ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 12, 2010, 06:21:51 AM

Quote from: ukrneal on March 12, 2010, 05:58:38 AM
Perhaps not a discussion for here, but what terrible reviews. The first spends all this time on extraneous stuff. Perhaps interesting, perhaps not, but has no seeming connection to the review. And the second really ticked me off. Can anyone say BIAS! I hate it when reviewers start with stupid comments like Haydn is inappropriate for modern pianos and such things (as if there is only way to hear them). Ok, I'll stop ranting now... I'll interupt my Svendsen symphony with a Haydn Piano Concerto! That should put a swing in my step... ;D

QuoteSo how does all this musing apply to Hamelin? One listens happily to the continuous outpouring of beautiful tone; it's mesmerizing, but I have trouble finding Haydn in it. Sonatas written from 1773 to 1789 are represented here (the Andante and Variations is from 1793). When these 11 pieces are heard more or less consecutively, it is not always easy to distinguish between the sonatas, sometimes even between middle and late works. As piano playing, these performances are beyond criticism; as Haydn, they are a bit pale. Hamelin is not alone in this phenomenon: major artists who span the piano repertoire (Ax, Pletnev, Schiff, Lang) are seldom as interesting in Haydn as 18th-century specialists—Richter was an exception to any rule. Another factor (which I've seen expressed elsewhere but cannot recall by whom) is that a performance that must be cautious for some reason—Haydn on a grand piano—is seldom as interesting, as satisfying, as one in which the artist is able to go all out—Haydn on a fortepiano.

ukrneal,
I am going to guess that this is the review you are talking about, yes? The way I read this is that he is saying that what is considered to be the strength of the modern piano is an unfortunate handicap here, and so players who excel in other repertoire don't show at their best. I don't see this as unbridled criticism as such, but rather as an attempt to find an explanation for a phenomenon that (I agree) exists. Yes, you can hold back a modern piano, but when you do, you lose some of your and its ability to play freely and to its strength.

I am not one who would disallow anyone from listening to what they enjoy, as anyone who has known me here for 7 years will attest. But I feel that if you want to get the most out of these works, go with the period instruments, played by a specialist in that rep. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 12, 2010, 06:40:41 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 12, 2010, 06:21:51 AM
ukrneal,
I am going to guess that this is the review you are talking about, yes? The way I read this is that he is saying that what is considered to be the strength of the modern piano is an unfortunate handicap here, and so players who excel in other repertoire don't show at their best. I don't see this as unbridled criticism as such, but rather as an attempt to find an explanation for a phenomenon that (I agree) exists. Yes, you can hold back a modern piano, but when you do, you lose some of your and its ability to play freely and to its strength.

I am not one who would disallow anyone from listening to what they enjoy, as anyone who has known me here for 7 years will attest. But I feel that if you want to get the most out of these works, go with the period instruments, played by a specialist in that rep. :)

8)

Yes that one. I don't think the instrument is a handicap to any piece of music. He is starting out the review by basically saying that the modern piano can never equal (let alone surpass) instruments of the time. I cannot agree with that. I happen to be in the opposite camp from you in that I believe the best way to get the most out of these works is to play them on modern instruments (specialist or not makes less difference to me), not period instruments (most of which I dislike on sound alone). However, like you, I would never impose that view on others and would want you (and others) to enjoy whatever you like (and who cares what others think). There are plenty of instruments, versions, interpretations, etc. to satisfy virtually everyone these days. I just don't like how he seems to impose his view on me (which is that I shouldn't listen to it on modern pianos).

And since we both love Haydn (perhaps I was a bit late getting there - better late than never), all is well in the world...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 12, 2010, 06:41:52 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 12, 2010, 06:21:51 AM
I feel that if you want to get the most out of these works, go with

Brendel.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on March 12, 2010, 06:52:23 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on March 12, 2010, 12:56:59 AMTo all Schornsheim-lovers (or haters, or neutrals).

Are there any questions you would like to ask her (have her asked)??

Nah...just tell her "thanks" for the lovely Haydn organ cto recordings! (Wish I liked her tinny pianoforte as much as Brautigam's fuller-bodied one!)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 12, 2010, 06:57:10 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 12, 2010, 06:41:52 AM
Brendel...

Sarge

...should play a better piano. ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on March 12, 2010, 07:03:48 AM

Quote from: ukrneal on March 12, 2010, 06:40:41 AM
Yes that one. I don't think the instrument is a handicap to any piece of music. He is starting out the review by basically saying that the modern piano can never equal (let alone surpass) instruments of the time. I cannot agree with that. I happen to be in the opposite camp from you in that I believe the best way to get the most out of these works is to play them on modern instruments (specialist or not makes less difference to me), not period instruments (most of which I dislike on sound alone). However, like you, I would never impose that view on others and would want you (and others) to enjoy whatever you like (and who cares what others think). There are plenty of instruments, versions, interpretations, etc. to satisfy virtually everyone these days. I just don't like how he seems to impose his view on me (which is that I shouldn't listen to it on modern pianos).

And since we both love Haydn (perhaps I was a bit late getting there - better late than never), all is well in the world...

Ber in mind that I'm new to Haydn's "Piano" Concerto recordings, and that I generally dislike the tinny pianoforte sound but otherwise have a strong preference for HIP period instrument performances of baroque and classical music. I'm thirlled by Dave's recommendation for Brautigam, for this recording seems to have it all, the transparent texture of a period appropriate sized orchestra with correct balances among instuments, but with the fuller, richer sound of Brautigam's instrument compared to those I'm used to (including Immerseel's)--and, of course, musicality in spades.

For the sake of proper balance, a modern piano demands a larger orchestra, but this must be managed judiciously lest the light, open, clear textures be overwhelmed by outsized forces. It can be done, however, witness Schiff's Mozart concerto recordings on modern instruments with the Camerata Salzburg under Sandor Vegh--comparing favorably in this regard with Immerseel/Anima Eterna's recordings of the same repertoire.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 12, 2010, 07:04:45 AM

All this debate (fortepiano vs modern piano) reminds me of a humorous story about the great French actor Jean_Mounet-Sully (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/). He was rehearsing some 17-th century tragedy which required him to take an oath on an old Bible. He is presented with a contemporary one. "No way! The play says an old Bible, give me an old Bible!" he shouts. After half an hour, he is handed a Bible from 1685. "Here you are, monsieur: an old one!". To which he retorts: "But back then it was new!".

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 12, 2010, 08:19:53 AM

Quote from: DavidRoss on March 12, 2010, 07:03:48 AM
Ber in mind that I'm new to Haydn's "Piano" Concerto recordings, and that I generally dislike the tinny pianoforte sound but otherwise have a strong preference for HIP period instrument performances of baroque and classical music. I'm thirlled by Dave's recommendation for Brautigam, for this recording seems to have it all, the transparent texture of a period appropriate sized orchestra with correct balances among instuments, but with the fuller, richer sound of Brautigam's instrument compared to those I'm used to (including Immerseel's)--and, of course, musicality in spades.

For the sake of proper balance, a modern piano demands a larger orchestra, but this must be managed judiciously lest the light, open, clear textures be overwhelmed by outsized forces. It can be done, however, witness Schiff's Mozart concerto recordings on modern instruments with the Camerata Salzburg under Sandor Vegh--comparing favorably in this regard with Immerseel/Anima Eterna's recordings of the same repertoire.

This sort of statement confusese me, in particular the bit about the 'fuller richer sound'. Since I don't have this version, I went online to check it out (to make sure I had the right instrument in mind, as there are many variations). What I heard was exactly the opposite of what you describe: cold, pingy, and hollow. How can this be that we hear the same thing and yet hear something so completely different? I don't know how to explain it.

I also don't understand why you say a modern piano demands a larger orchestra. People use them in solos, trios and quartets, orchestra, etc. and I've never heard anyone complain about a lack of balance among the isntruments.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 12, 2010, 08:27:14 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 12, 2010, 06:57:10 AM
...should play a better piano. ;)

:D ....I have a feeling Brendel wouldn't agree with you. There is a reason the fortepiano went extinct ;)

But I enjoy the sound of the early instruments too, and acknowledge that in some cases they can give us something the composer intended which is difficult, even impossible, to duplicate on the modern grand. Has this interesting article been linked to already, here or in one of the HIP threads? It from slate.com, entitled: "In Search of Lost Sounds: Why you've never really heard the 'Moonlight' Sonata"

http://www.slate.com/id/2245891?obref=obinsite

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 12, 2010, 08:43:47 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 12, 2010, 08:27:14 AM
:D ....I have a feeling Brendel wouldn't agree with you. There is a reason the fortepiano went extinct ;)

But I enjoy the sound of the early instruments too, and acknowledge that in some cases they can give us something the composer intended which is difficult, even impossible, to duplicate on the modern grand. Has this interesting article been linked to already, here or in one of the HIP threads? It from slate.com, entitled: "In Search of Lost Sounds: Why you've never really heard the 'Moonlight' Sonata"

http://www.slate.com/id/2245891?obref=obinsite

Sarge

Very interesting, although I don't buy some of what he's selling. Still, quite useful - thanks for posting.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 12, 2010, 08:46:18 AM

Quote from: ukrneal on March 12, 2010, 08:43:47 AM
Very interesting, although I don't buy some of what he's selling. Still, quite useful - thanks for posting.

Namely what? (For the record, I'm on your side. :) )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 12, 2010, 09:26:13 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 12, 2010, 08:27:14 AM
:D ....I have a feeling Brendel wouldn't agree with you. There is a reason the fortepiano went extinct ;)
Sarge

No, really, there isn't. The fortepiano evolved into the pianoforte so that it could be played louder and in bigger venues. This was NOT so that Haydn's music could be played louder and in bigger venues, it was so the music that was being written concurrently with the development could be done. The instrument and the music always were perfect for each other. I'm sorry if you don't buy into that, and as I said earlier I think everyone should listen to the music they like played on whatever they like to hear it on. People who like period instruments needn't be snobbish about it, neither should those who think that their modern candidate is clearly superior be. Neither one is "clearly superior" to anyone but oneself. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 12, 2010, 09:48:03 AM

Quote from: ukrneal on March 12, 2010, 08:43:47 AM
Very interesting, although I don't buy some of what he's selling. Still, quite useful - thanks for posting.

Quote from: Florestan on March 12, 2010, 08:46:18 AM
Namely what? (For the record, I'm on your side. :) )

I just want to say, without insulting anyone or hurting any feelings, that as far as matters of fact go, it makes no difference whether any particular one of us buys into it or doesn't do. The statements he makes concerning whether a modern piano can do some of the things that a fortepiano can do simply don't rely on anyone's opinion for validation.

Of course, any statements concerning whether something is more or less agreeable in sound or "authentic" can be squashed at will. They are all opinion and his are no more valid than yours or mine, thus, valueless. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 12, 2010, 10:10:23 AM

Gurn, do you have any relevant information about what was the intended audience for Haydn's piano sonatas?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Clever Hans on March 12, 2010, 10:16:36 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on March 12, 2010, 12:56:59 AM
SonicMan: If you like "Piano Hulk" in Haydn (unless you just mean MAH's ridiculous skill & speed which I've once observed sitting diagonally behind him as he played Godowski-Chopin Etude Variations), you should check out Tzimon Barto's Haydn disc. http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/best-recordings-of-2008-almost-list.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/best-recordings-of-2008-almost-list.html).

To all Schornsheim-lovers (or haters, or neutrals).

Are there any questions you would like to ask her (have her asked)??

Perhaps to name some of her favorite sonatas.
And which conductors/performers she likes in the symphonies, or other Haydn works.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 12, 2010, 10:18:58 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 12, 2010, 10:10:23 AM
Gurn, do you have any relevant information about what was the intended audience for Haydn's piano sonatas?

Oh sure. I can give you precise details from home, but if it is enough to know that every single one was written for private performance either at Esterhazy for the Prince, in Vienna for friends or in London for friends, then I can tell you that much right now. He did publish them, starting in 1775 or so, but of course he had no control over how they were used. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 12, 2010, 10:25:04 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 12, 2010, 10:18:58 AM
every single one was written for private performance either at Esterhazy for the Prince, in Vienna for friends or in London for friends

Thanks. That would imply that the performance at the time they were composed would typically involve a small room and very few people attending besides Haydn and the keyboard-ist. And the audience would not necessarily be seated, stiff and still, but rather walking around and commenting the music. Am I right in these assumptions?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on March 12, 2010, 10:27:36 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 12, 2010, 10:18:58 AM
Oh sure. I can give you precise details from home, but if it is enough to know that every single one was written for private performance either at Esterhazy for the Prince, in Vienna for friends or in London for friends, then I can tell you that much right now. He did publish them, starting in 1775 or so, but of course he had no control over how they were used. :)

8)

Even the oratorios?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 12, 2010, 10:42:51 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 12, 2010, 08:46:18 AM
Namely what? (For the record, I'm on your side. :) )

Not a question of sides (there are at least three anyway), the author makes a number of subjective statements with the implication that it is somehow fact. For example, he makes statements that the interpretation/sound we are hearing is the intent of Beethoven. I can buy that different instruments may allow that intent to be reliazed more or less fully or more or less precisely (certianly the result is different). But to say that the intent is realized only with one of the instruments strikes me as extremely subjective (and certainly this is the implication in the article). One can play on an original instrument less violently and get closer to the sound of a modern one. Playing a passage violently, in and of itself (for example), is not very persuassive from my point of view.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 12, 2010, 10:43:06 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 12, 2010, 10:18:58 AM
Oh sure. I can give you precise details from home, but if it is enough to know that every single one was written for private performance either at Esterhazy for the Prince, in Vienna for friends or in London for friends, then I can tell you that much right now. He did publish them, starting in 1775 or so, but of course he had no control over how they were used. :)

Tom Beghin's Virtual Haydn is a perfect demonstration of all those points. :)

P.S.: I know, I know, Gurn, you don't have a blu-ray player. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 12, 2010, 10:50:26 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 12, 2010, 10:25:04 AM
Thanks. That would imply that the performance at the time they were composed would typically involve a small room and very few people attending besides Haydn and the keyboard-ist. And the audience would not necessarily be seated, stiff and still, but rather walking around and commenting the music. Am I right in these assumptions?

Yes. Evenings at the Florestan household for some piano and singing were incredibly commonplace.

"Oh, Fanny Florestan has a new sonata that Haydn wrote for her. Let's drop in for it and some punch tomorrow...". :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 12, 2010, 10:51:26 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on March 12, 2010, 10:27:36 AM
Even the oratorios?

Oh, no, we were specifically talking piano sonatas, Navneeth. Certainly there were also works written for public consumption. Just not piano sonatas... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 12, 2010, 10:53:15 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 12, 2010, 10:43:06 AM
Tom Beghin's Virtual Haydn is a perfect demonstration of all those points. :)

P.S.: I know, I know, Gurn, you don't have a blu-ray player. ;)

:D

But I have read enough background as to his intentions and accomplishment to know that this is true. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 12, 2010, 10:54:55 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 12, 2010, 10:25:04 AM
Thanks. That would imply that the performance at the time they were composed would typically involve a small room and very few people attending besides Haydn and the keyboard-ist. And the audience would not necessarily be seated, stiff and still, but rather walking around and commenting the music. Am I right in these assumptions?

Totally right. Even in the theaters the people was not quiet during the performances. I recall a Mozart's letter where he said that he was waiting the public's reaction (shouts and applause) during certain passages of a symphony in Paris. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 12, 2010, 11:03:21 AM

Quote from: ukrneal on March 12, 2010, 10:42:51 AM
Not a question of sides (there are at least three anyway), the author makes a number of subjective statements with the implication that it is somehow fact. For example, he makes statements that the interpretation/sound we are hearing is the intent of Beethoven. I can buy that different instruments may allow that intent to be reliazed more or less fully or more or less precisely (certianly the result is different). But to say that the intent is realized only with one of the instruments strikes me as extremely subjective (and certainly this is the implication in the article). One can play on an original instrument less violently and get closer to the sound of a modern one. Playing a passage violently, in and of itself (for example), is not very persuassive from my point of view.

I am having a bit of trouble following you, so forgive me if I misunderstand. But in the bolded passage above, what does the sound of a modern piano have to do with Beethoven's intention? It can't possibly be related, since he had no knowledge of its existence, let alone its sound quality.

I think that the issue is that you have an instrument that is "too much" for what the music was written for. So you have 2 choices if you are going to use that instrument; 1 > play the music however it comes out, make it "bigger" in other words, or 2 > throttle back the modern instrument so that it sounds like the period one.

Most people that I know were brought up (in Beethoven's case) with choice 1. That's what they like and as far as they are concerned there is little else that matters.

If you are going to elect choice 2, which is becoming more widespread, then why not just learn how to play a fortepiano (yes, even a great modern pianist would have to learn how to play one) and forget throttling back?

Even if I have misunderstood you, I stand by these points on their own.

Beethoven, however, is not Haydn. Haydn should be played on the harpsichord, the clavichord or the fortepiano. Just sayin'... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 12, 2010, 11:24:00 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 12, 2010, 11:03:21 AM
I am having a bit of trouble following you, so forgive me if I misunderstand. But in the bolded passage above, what does the sound of a modern piano have to do with Beethoven's intention? It can't possibly be related, since he had no knowledge of its existence, let alone its sound quality.

I think that the issue is that you have an instrument that is "too much" for what the music was written for. So you have 2 choices if you are going to use that instrument; 1 > play the music however it comes out, make it "bigger" in other words, or 2 > throttle back the modern instrument so that it sounds like the period one.

Most people that I know were brought up (in Beethoven's case) with choice 1. That's what they like and as far as they are concerned there is little else that matters.

If you are going to elect choice 2, which is becoming more widespread, then why not just learn how to play a fortepiano (yes, even a great modern pianist would have to learn how to play one) and forget throttling back?

Even if I have misunderstood you, I stand by these points on their own.

Beethoven, however, is not Haydn. Haydn should be played on the harpsichord, the clavichord or the fortepiano. Just sayin'... :)

8)

The author makes a connection in one of the Beethoven sonatas that becuase it has been played more violently (on the period instrument), it is closer to 'true' Beethoven (becuase the instrument is portrayed like that). If one does not avail oneself of the full 'violence' available, does that mean the pianist is not following Beethoven's intent or does it mean it is simply a different interpretation (a valid one). The author has nice soundbites (and the samples are interesting for sure), but doesn't ultimately connect the dots logically (or at least fully). Maybe Brendel attains some of his impact with smoke and mirrors, but that doesn't mean his interpretation is any less Beethoven.

Should Haydn be played on the harpsichord or fortepiano? Not over my dead.... ???

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on March 12, 2010, 11:30:26 AM

Quote from: ukrneal on March 12, 2010, 08:19:53 AM
This sort of statement confusese me, in particular the bit about the 'fuller richer sound'. Since I don't have this version, I went online to check it out (to make sure I had the right instrument in mind, as there are many variations). What I heard was exactly the opposite of what you describe: cold, pingy, and hollow. How can this be that we hear the same thing and yet hear something so completely different? I don't know how to explain it.

I also don't understand why you say a modern piano demands a larger orchestra. People use them in solos, trios and quartets, orchestra, etc. and I've never heard anyone complain about a lack of balance among the isntruments.

(a) Perhaps you misunderstood the comparison...? I'm not comparing Brautigam's instrument to the much richer and fuller sound of modern pianos, but to the tinny sound of the period instruments that I'm accustomed to hearing, such as Immerseel's (mentioned as a specific reference in my original post).

(b)The reason a modern piano demands a larger orchestra is because its more powerful sound would drown out the other instruments and screw up the balance of forces with a small period ensemble. It would be like playing Vivaldi's lute concerto in D with a small chamber orchestra using a Stratocaster plugged into a 100 watt amp turned up to 11.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 12, 2010, 11:35:11 AM

Quote from: ukrneal on March 12, 2010, 11:24:00 AM
...Maybe Brendel attains some of his impact with smoke and mirrors, but that doesn't mean his interpretation is any less Beethoven.

Should Haydn be played on the harpsichord or fortepiano? Not over my dead.... ???

No, quite so. If he can produce the same sort of effect as to capture the intent of the music, then it will satisfy. As it happens, I like Brendel's Beethoven (although not as much as Badura-Skoda's, but that's an issue for another day) so I don't want to denigrate him. I really don't think that it is impossible to listen to and enjoy a spectrum of performances and instruments and judge them each on its own merit. It can't be, since I do it and I am not as well armed for that battle as many are. :)

True, the clavichord IS the right thing in most cases... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 12, 2010, 11:42:27 AM

Quote from: DavidRoss on March 12, 2010, 11:30:26 AM
(a) Perhaps you misunderstood the comparison...? I'm not comparing Brautigam's instrument to the much richer and fuller sound of modern pianos, but to the tinny sound of the period instruments that I'm accustomed to hearing, such as Immerseel's (mentioned as a specific reference in my original post).

(b)The reason a modern piano demands a larger orchestra is because its more powerful sound would drown out the other instruments and screw up the balance of forces with a small period ensemble. It would be like playing Vivaldi's lute concerto in D with a small chamber orchestra using a Stratocaster plugged into a 100 watt amp turned up to 11.

a) Ah - I did misunderstand. Makes sense now.
b) Still not sure why a modern piano wouldn't serve. Just need to be careful about dynamics, which is something pianists should think about anyway. I have some Brahms chamber works with piano and they don't get drowned out by the piano, though they could if the pianist were less careful.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on March 12, 2010, 08:29:31 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 12, 2010, 10:51:26 AM
Oh, no, we were specifically talking piano sonatas, Navneeth. Certainly there were also works written for public consumption. Just not piano sonatas... :)

8)

Ugh. Sorry -- 1 AM, very sleepy.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on March 13, 2010, 12:50:52 AM

Quote from: ukrneal on March 12, 2010, 11:42:27 AM
Still not sure why a modern piano wouldn't serve. Just need to be careful about dynamics, which is something pianists should think about anyway. I have some Brahms chamber works with piano and they don't get drowned out by the piano, though they could if the pianist were less careful.

I always felt that this was kind of the point - by a modern piano having to be played more softly to work in music it was not intended for, it is being bent into an unidiomatic function and sound. It can play the music, but for all its improved resonance and tone, the dynamics are stilted. A period piano (as mentioned with Beethoven) can be thrashed during loud parts as Beethoven calls for without balance problems, but a modern piano is always just half-on. Brahms works better because pianos during his period were more powerful and he scored his music with that in mind.

An example, perhaps, is how the piano trio as a core form began to die out during the early 20th century, just when the modern piano as we recognise it developed. There were exceptions - Martinů for example - but generally composers seem to have been put off by the balance troubles (and why not - it's a bizarre combination of unequals) and focused on either sonatas, string quartets, or music for oddly-sized ensemble...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 13, 2010, 01:44:51 AM

Quote from: Lethe on March 13, 2010, 12:50:52 AM
I always felt that this was kind of the point - by a modern piano having to be played more softly to work in music it was not intended for, it is being bent into an unidiomatic function and sound. It can play the music, but for all its improved resonance and tone, the dynamics are stilted. A period piano (as mentioned with Beethoven) can be thrashed during loud parts as Beethoven calls for without balance problems, but a modern piano is always just half-on. Brahms works better because pianos during his period were more powerful and he scored his music with that in mind.

An example, perhaps, is how the piano trio as a core form began to die out during the early 20th century, just when the modern piano as we recognise it developed. There were exceptions - Martinů for example - but generally composers seem to have been put off by the balance troubles (and why not - it's a bizarre combination of unequals) and focused on either sonatas, string quartets, or music for oddly-sized ensemble...

I don't understand the first statement. In most settings, the piano doesn't let loose except for an occasional moment here and there. So when it is playing in its range (which is most of the time), I don't feel that the piano is overpowering. A modern instrument soloist is not usually drowned out by the piano, let alone some sort of chamber group. Perhaps that is where we disagree? I used Brahms as an example, but Schubert and others work just as fine as well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on March 13, 2010, 04:51:50 AM

Quote from: ukrneal on March 12, 2010, 11:42:27 AM
a) Ah - I did misunderstand. Makes sense now.
b) Still not sure why a modern piano wouldn't serve. Just need to be careful about dynamics, which is something pianists should think about anyway. I have some Brahms chamber works with piano and they don't get drowned out by the piano, though they could if the pianist were less careful.

Let's not shift the ground, please. Perhaps it will help you to understand if you consider the difference between historically informed period instrument performances of works written for the smallish orchestras of Vienna ca. 1800 without piano and 20th Century performances of the same works by orchestras with string sections inflated to twice or thrice the size. With the balance of forces thrown off, the textures are different and inner voices are obscured or muddled, changing the character of the piece. Compare the sound, texture, and transparency of a recording of a good HIPI ensemble like The Orchestra of the 18th Century playing a Haydn symphony with that of, say, the Berlin Philharmonic under von Karajan. Regardless of which you might prefer, I think you will agree they are different--and it is that difference that we are discussing.

If you are having a hard time understanding the point we are making intellectually--that is, by applying your mind to imagining the situations we describe and considering how the concerns we describe apply and make sense--then forego the thought experiment and actually listen. These days, thanks to the internet and streaming downloads from services like Naxos and Rhapsody and last.fm, you don't even have to own HIPI recordings to make such comparisons and to see why even contemporary modern instrument ensembles are scaling back their proportions in performing classical and baroque era works intended for smaller forces.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scarpia on March 13, 2010, 06:04:09 AM

Quote from: ukrneal on March 13, 2010, 01:44:51 AM
I don't understand the first statement. In most settings, the piano doesn't let loose except for an occasional moment here and there. So when it is playing in its range (which is most of the time), I don't feel that the piano is overpowering. A modern instrument soloist is not usually drowned out by the piano, let alone some sort of chamber group. Perhaps that is where we disagree? I used Brahms as an example, but Schubert and others work just as fine as well.

You persistence in not understanding is truly to be admired. The piano would be able to "let loose" if the balance were not so shifted in it's favor. In chamber music performance the lid of the piano is often not kept fully open and the pianist has to play with restricted dynamics. This does not create the same timbre as an instrument with the lid up, played extrovertedly. The other issue is sustain, which is much longer on a Modern piano. Mozart piano parts tend to have a lot of notes, which seem redundant and tend to create a muddle on the modern piano

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 13, 2010, 06:05:15 AM

Quote from: DavidRoss on March 13, 2010, 04:51:50 AM
Let's not shift the ground, please. Perhaps it will help you to understand if you consider the difference between historically informed period instrument performances of works written for the smallish orchestras of Vienna ca. 1800 without piano and 20th Century performances of the same works by orchestras with string sections inflated to twice or thrice the size. With the balance of forces thrown off, the textures are different and inner voices are obscured or muddled, changing the character of the piece. Compare the sound, texture, and transparency of a recording of a good HIPI ensemble like The Orchestra of the 18th Century playing a Haydn symphony with that of, say, the Berlin Philharmonic under von Karajan. Regardless of which you might prefer, I think you will agree they are different--and it is that difference that we are discussing.

If you are having a hard time understanding the point we are making intellectually--that is, by applying your mind to imagining the situations we describe and considering how the concerns we describe apply and make sense--then forego the thought experiment and actually listen. These days, thanks to the internet and streaming downloads from services like Naxos and Rhapsody and last.fm, you don't even have to own HIPI recordings to make such comparisons and to see why even contemporary modern instrument ensembles are scaling back their proportions in performing classical and baroque era works intended for smaller forces.

No need to get snarky. When you get down to the bottom line, I simply prefer the sound of a modern piano to most of the older variety pianos. There is no loss of texture, transparency or any of that as you claim (although different shades of sounds may be produced). That is purely your opinion, not fact. In reality, I am much less concerned about the type of instrument than the resulting performance (does it evoke something from me, make me think, etc.), so I am not sure why you are being so attacking in tone in your post. Not everyone likes (or agrees with) every aspect of HIP, and the fascination with period instruments makes little sense to me. The intonation (and lack thereof) of those instruments irritates the bejeezers out of me.

Karajan and others do not lose texture because the larger orchestra is inherently worse or heavier. Go listen to Toscanini, who played with large forces, and the lightness and sparkle he exhibits are no less than those found in today's modern HIP ensembles. Just because an orchestra is big with modern instruments does not mean it will just lumber along.

If you prefer listening to smaller scale or period groups, I have nothing against that. But why I have to agree with you that this is a good thing (which I am not inclined to do) is beyond me. Certainly there is enough flexibility in the music for both to have their place?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2010, 06:17:13 AM

Quote from: ukrneal on March 13, 2010, 06:05:15 AM
No need to get snarky. When you get down to the bottom line, I simply prefer the sound of a modern piano to most of the older variety pianos. There is no loss of texture, transparency or any of that as you claim (although different shades of sounds may be produced). That is purely your opinion, not fact. In reality, I am much less concerned about the type of instrument than the resulting performance (does it evoke something from me, make me think, etc.), so I am not sure why you are being so attacking in tone in your post. Not everyone likes (or agrees with) every aspect of HIP, and the fascination with period instruments makes little sense to me. The intonation (and lack thereof) of those instruments irritates the bejeezers out of me.

Karajan and others do not lose texture because the larger orchestra is inherently worse or heavier. Go listen to Toscanini, who played with large forces, and the lightness and sparkle he exhibits are no less than those found in today's modern HIP ensembles. Just because an orchestra is big with modern instruments does mean it will just lumber along.

If you prefer listening to smaller scale or period groups, I have nothing against that. But why I have to agree with you that this is a good thing (which I am not inclined to do) is beyond me. Certainly there is enough flexibility in the music for both to have their place?

My guess would be because it is the sort of civility that we try to practice here (it keeps the riff-raff out) to not try to qualify our own choices by denigrating someone else's. IOW, we don't care if you agree with us that this is a good thing. Simply say you prefer this one and move on. Using only myself as an example, I earlier told someone (you?) this same thing about listening to what you like. I didn't add "although I think it sucks" to the end of it", which is what the point is of David's irritation.

There are 2 threads on this entire forum where I will take the time to explain this phenomenon, and this is one of them. There are no unpleasantnesses allowed here, so let's take this as an opportunity to learn and move along with it. We like to have you here, and also to have David make a rare visit, but let's all treat Haydn's Haus with the proper respect so as not to get the moderators' attention... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 13, 2010, 06:38:51 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2010, 06:17:13 AM
My guess would be because it is the sort of civility that we try to practice here (it keeps the riff-raff out) to not try to qualify our own choices by denigrating someone else's. IOW, we don't care if you agree with us that this is a good thing. Simply say you prefer this one and move on. Using only myself as an example, I earlier told someone (you?) this same thing about listening to what you like. I didn't add "although I think it sucks" to the end of it", which is what the point is of David's irritation.

There are 2 threads on this entire forum where I will take the time to explain this phenomenon, and this is one of them. There are no unpleasantnesses allowed here, so let's take this as an opportunity to learn and move along with it. We like to have you here, and also to have David make a rare visit, but let's all treat Haydn's Haus with the proper respect so as not to get the moderators' attention... :D

8)

I whole-heartedly agree with you.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2010, 06:49:37 AM

Quote from: ukrneal on March 13, 2010, 06:38:51 AM
I whole-heartedly agree with you.

Thank you, sir. I knew you were a gentleman when you scraped the mud off your boots before entering the parlor. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on March 13, 2010, 07:18:29 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2010, 06:17:13 AM
[L]et's all treat Haydn's Haus with the proper respect so as not to get the moderators' attention... :D

8)

At least one mod. has to attend to it, you know. And to quote an oft-used phrase by certain moderator who shall remain unnamed: just sayin'...

;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2010, 07:23:19 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on March 13, 2010, 07:18:29 AM
At least one mod. has to attend to it, you know. And to quote an oft-used phrase by certain moderator who shall remain unnamed: just sayin'...

;)

:D Well, it's because Haydn has always been so controversial, don't you know. A mod ( $:) ) had to be assigned to this vicinity just to balance that aspect out of the equation. If he had been some bland, routine sort of composer, like Wagner, for example, it would have been no problem... ;D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 13, 2010, 07:30:58 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2010, 07:23:19 AM
:D Well, it's because Haydn has always been so controversial, don't you know. A mod ( $:) ) had to be assigned to this vicinity just to balance that aspect out of the equation. If he had been some bland, routine sort of composer, like Wagner, for example, it would have been no problem... ;D

8)

Wagner? Who's that?!?! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2010, 07:34:53 AM

Quote from: ukrneal on March 13, 2010, 07:30:58 AM
Wagner? Who's that?!?! :)

There you go, proves my point. Totally non-controversial due to virtually unknown. ;D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 13, 2010, 07:47:53 AM

I have a great idea! We should have two separate Haydn's houses: HIP & non-HIP... wait a minute, wait a minute... it's a bad idea. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2010, 07:51:25 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 13, 2010, 07:47:53 AM
I have a great idea! We should have two separate Haydn's houses: HIP & non-HIP... wait a minute, wait a minute... it's a bad idea. ;D

::) I think those earthquakes must have you a bit.... rattled, my friend. :D

Speaking of which, hope all is still well with you and things are looking up a bit there. All best with that. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 13, 2010, 08:06:32 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2010, 07:51:25 AM
::) I think those earthquakes must have you a bit.... rattled, my friend. :D

Speaking of which, hope all is still well with you and things are looking up a bit there. All best with that. :)

It's highly probably my friend, these are not been "ordinary" days.

Fortunately, my family and I are fine, but it's difficult to return normal with two or three aftershocks every day... But certainly our Haydn has been a great help. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2010, 08:56:00 AM

OK, to continue with my irregular series on "Works by Year", which is based solely on my collection, thus may miss a work that you particularly treasure. Please don't take it personally, eventually I will have it all, and an addendum will be in order. :)

1768
Hob 01_026 Symphony in d Starting to get heavily into Stürm und Dräng now!
Hob 01_039 Symphony in g
Hob 01_048 Symphony in C
Hob 01_049 Symphony in f

Hob 05_10 Trio in F for Strings Probably more of these at this time; gaping hole for me!

Hob 10_07 Sonata in D for Baryton & Cello I like these works better than the trios, nice!
Hob 10_09 Sonata in D for 2 Barytons & 2 Horns
Hob 10_10 Quintet in D for Baryton, Winds & Strings

Hob 11_049 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_050 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_051 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_052 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_053 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_054 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_055 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_056 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_057 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_058 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_059 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_060 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_061 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_062 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_063 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_064 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_065 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_066 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_067 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_068 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_069 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_070 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_071 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_072 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3

Hob 12_18 Divertimento in A for Baryton Solo
Hob 12_20 Divertimento in G for Baryton Solo
Hob 12_21 Divertimento in D for Baryton Solo
Hob 12_22 Divertimento in A for Baryton Solo
Hob 12_23 Divertimento in G for Baryton Solo

Hob 17a_02 Sonata in F for 2 Keyboards

Hob 22_02 Missa Sunt bona mixta malis (fragment) "Some good mixed with some bad". Candid, eh?

Hob 23a_01 Offertorium Non nobis, Domine
Hob 23c_04a Responsoria de Venerabili

Hob 28_03 Opera Lo Speziale (Der Apotheker) A little bit missing, but nice anyway.

Hob deest Fragment in D for Keyboard

So, still quite a busy lad. I like the works from the late '60's. They knocked the competition on its ass. And he was experimenting a lot too, which makes for some unusual music on occasion. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Prague & Miami Wind Quintets - Hob 02 Eb13 Divertimento in Eb for Wind Octet 2nd mvmt - Romance: Allegretto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on March 13, 2010, 09:06:52 AM

Quote from: ukrneal on March 13, 2010, 06:05:15 AM
No need to get snarky. When you get down to the bottom line, I simply prefer the sound of a modern piano to most of the older variety pianos. There is no loss of texture, transparency or any of that as you claim (although different shades of sounds may be produced). That is purely your opinion, not fact. In reality, I am much less concerned about the type of instrument than the resulting performance (does it evoke something from me, make me think, etc.), so I am not sure why you are being so attacking in tone in your post. Not everyone likes (or agrees with) every aspect of HIP, and the fascination with period instruments makes little sense to me. The intonation (and lack thereof) of those instruments irritates the bejeezers out of me.

Karajan and others do not lose texture because the larger orchestra is inherently worse or heavier. Go listen to Toscanini, who played with large forces, and the lightness and sparkle he exhibits are no less than those found in today's modern HIP ensembles. Just because an orchestra is big with modern instruments does not mean it will just lumber along.

If you prefer listening to smaller scale or period groups, I have nothing against that. But why I have to agree with you that this is a good thing (which I am not inclined to do) is beyond me. Certainly there is enough flexibility in the music for both to have their place?

Huh? Snarky? Attacking? Demanding that you change your preferences to agree with mine? I don't understand why you are reading this stuff into my posts. It's not there. Go back and look them over, please.

If you do, you will see that I have done none of the things you attack me for, but have only responded with kindness and generosity to your responses claiming that you do not understand my statements. Perhaps I'm being foolish in presuming that these responses signal an interest in understanding, but that's how I've interpreted them and have tried to oblige by offering more information that may be helpful.

No one's being snarky or attacking you or insisting that you change your preferences or even that you learn to hear and understand the point I and others are making regarding balance of forces. In fact, if you go back to my first post on the subject (here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg398385.html#msg398385)), the one to which you first responded by saying it confused you, you will see that I actually share your preference for the sound of modern pianos over the comparatively thin, tinny, non-resonant sound of classical period instruments.

Finally, as to whether period instruments and ensemble sizes' effect on tone, texture, transparency, etc. is fact or opinion, that is something you can easily determine for yourself if you wish--just as you or anyone else can easily determine for himself whether the tone of a period pianoforte (or fortepiano) is thin or "tinny" in comparison to a modern instrument. I've stated the case. My part ends there, for I've no interest whatsoever in trying to compel understanding or agreement.

Happily, there is not only plenty of good music to go around, but also enough variety in performance styles that everybody should be able to find much that pleases them. Good luck to you, and happy listening! 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2010, 09:14:00 AM

OK, now all parties to that issue have had their say, everyone understands each other on it, and when it arises again (which it will, of course) we will all not only begin but continue in a vein of total respect for each other's opinions. No one is here to be snarky or judgmental, and really, if you are I will insure that you aren't around long enough to bother anyone with it. What we want here is good, well-thought out input. Let's all try and benefit from that. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Consortium Classicum / Klöcker - Hob 02 Eb14 Divertimento in Eb for Wind Octet 3rd mvmt - Menuetto: Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 13, 2010, 11:32:59 AM

Quote from: DavidRoss on March 13, 2010, 09:06:52 AM
Huh? Snarky? Attacking? Demanding that you change your preferences to agree with mine? I don't understand why you are reading this stuff into my posts. It's not there. Go back and look them over, please.

If you do, you will see that I have done none of the things you attack me for, but have only responded with kindness and generosity to your responses claiming that you do not understand my statements. Perhaps I'm being foolish in presuming that these responses signal an interest in understanding, but that's how I've interpreted them and have tried to oblige by offering more information that may be helpful.

No one's being snarky or attacking you or insisting that you change your preferences...

Happily, there is not only plenty of good music to go around, but also enough variety in performance styles that everybody should be able to find much that pleases them. Good luck to you, and happy listening! 8)

Apologies for the misunderstanding. Sometimes written posts (and emails) are easily misinterpreted.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on March 13, 2010, 12:25:35 PM

Quote from: ukrneal on March 13, 2010, 11:32:59 AM
Apologies for the misunderstanding. Sometimes written posts (and emails) are easily misinterpreted.

Wow! Thanks for the apology...a pretty rare thing around here that speaks highly of your character.

Given your advocacy for modern instrument recordings of these works, I wondered if you had any specific recommendations to offer re. recordings of Haydn's "piano" concertos. On that "other" forum a couple of folks suggested Andsnes's record, and Gurn here said something about liking Ax before becoming a confirmed HIPster. Any suggestions?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 13, 2010, 12:58:32 PM

Quote from: DavidRoss on March 13, 2010, 12:25:35 PM
Wow! Thanks for the apology...a pretty rare thing around here that speaks highly of your character.

Given your advocacy for modern instrument recordings of these works, I wondered if you had any specific recommendations to offer re. recordings of Haydn's "piano" concertos. On that "other" forum a couple of folks suggested Andsnes's record, and Gurn here said something about liking Ax before becoming a confirmed HIPster. Any suggestions?

That is something I am still exploring myself. I do like Pletnev (very enjoyable though I believe one of them has since been discovered to be someone else's; good value as it comes with some sonatas too). I have Ax in the sonatas, where I unexpectedly liked him a lot, so would definitely consider his concertos (which I have not heard). I have heard the Andsnes (borrowed it for a listen) and liked it a lot as well, though not enough to really compare to Pletnev. It is on my wish list though, just waiting to get it at a good price (especially as I don't have #3). I have only read good things about it, and I think highly of Andsnes in general. So it seems there is not too bad a choice at all, always a good thing. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 13, 2010, 01:31:50 PM

Well, the Haus is back in order at the moment - ;) ;D

Last year Gurn & I had a brief exchange of posts over the 4-CD set shown below - Massimo Palumbo, the pianist - I even e-mailed the company to determined the packaging and posted - basically offered in four separate jewel boxes w/ the original notes, but little price reduction.

I believe that Gurn wanted me to 'buy in' but I was reluctant; now, if the set had been re-packaged into a thin box w/ cardboard sleeves and half-priced, I likely would have purchased it! The other important aspect of this set from what information was sent me is that the performances are on a 'modern' piano, so this would be a set for a non-Hipster, I guess; one brief review by David Hurwitz reprinted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=90175) - I'd still be curious if anyone may have heard these recordings? Thanks - Dave :D

Edit: Just remembered that I own the 8-CD set of Carulli Guitar-Keyboard works w/ Palumbo on an original fortepiano - curious why he might not have considered that option for the Haydn recordings? BTW- available from BRO for $24!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41JWJEMEA0L._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/612EAJ0A3JL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 15, 2010, 12:46:45 PM

I still don't know about that set, Dave, although I would be willing to bet that you would find it most acceptable. You could let me know.... 0:)

I bought 2 disks today, by way of comparison. The first fills in a gaping hole in my collection. I have had volumes 1 & 3 of Staier's Haydn sonatas for a long time, but was never able to come across volume 2 for a sane price. Until today:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41G7C8EPH9L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Then a recommendation from Antoine which fit into my ongoing survey of authentic keyboard Haydn, in this case, by Carole Cerasi:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41vHI3m45XL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

So, a couple of complementary disks that should satisfy nicely. I am starting to run low on stray disks in this category... :-\ :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 15, 2010, 01:06:27 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 15, 2010, 12:46:45 PM
Then a recommendation from Antoine which fit into my ongoing survey of authentic keyboard Haydn, in this case, by Carole Cerasi:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41vHI3m45XL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Coincidently my discs ordered from Abeille Musique arrived between the last Friday and today in 2 packages, although I have yet not listened to the Cerasi's disc. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 15, 2010, 01:09:50 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 15, 2010, 01:06:27 PM
Coincidently my discs ordered from Abeille Musique arrived between the last Friday and today in 2 packages, although I have yet not listened to the Cerasi's disc. :)

Yes, it only was released the other day. I was wondering if, in fact, yours was a pre-release sale. Seems it was, since they shipped it just when mine did. Looking forward to it. And as for the Staier, well, it has been available for $45 in a couple of places (used), which is the same price as the 3 disk box from Japan. Hated that since I already had 2 of them... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 15, 2010, 01:36:32 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 15, 2010, 01:09:50 PM
Yes, it only was released the other day. I was wondering if, in fact, yours was a pre-release sale. Seems it was, since they shipped it just when mine did.

Not really. My second package was sent by Abeille Musique on February 15, but it arrived just the last Friday, three days before the first package sent on February 3, which just arrived today (both of them by regular mail and, read my lips, without taxes! :D).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on March 15, 2010, 02:15:09 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 15, 2010, 01:09:50 PM
And as for the Staier, well, it has been available for $45 in a couple of places (used), which is the same price as the 3 disk box from Japan. Hated that since I already had 2 of them

If anyone needs all three Staier CDs (they are wonderful performances) best price appears to be boxset from MDT for $27

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/82876673762.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 15, 2010, 02:21:22 PM

Quote from: DarkAngel on March 15, 2010, 02:15:09 PM

If anyone needs all three Staier CDs (they are wonderful performances) best price appears to be boxset from MDT for $27

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/82876673762.jpg)

AMAZON (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Sonatas-Variations-Franz-Joseph/dp/B0007AC1GO/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1268691561&sr=8-8): $19.98.-

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on March 15, 2010, 03:04:00 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 15, 2010, 02:21:22 PM
AMAZON (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Sonatas-Variations-Franz-Joseph/dp/B0007AC1GO/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1268691561&sr=8-8): $19.98.-

WOW.....three Amazon sellers have it for under $12 new, that's a great deal

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 15, 2010, 03:31:34 PM

Quote from: DarkAngel on March 15, 2010, 03:04:00 PM

WOW.....three Amazon sellers have it for under $12 new, that's a great deal

Darn right it is. Last time I checked (2-3 months ago) it was $45. You might know that now that I have finally completed my set, they are giving this one away... :-\ Haydn fans should get it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 15, 2010, 03:33:13 PM

Quote from: DarkAngel on March 15, 2010, 02:15:09 PM

If anyone needs all three Staier CDs (they are wonderful performances) best price appears to be boxset from MDT for $27 - EDIT - Amazon MP for $12 - 3 dics!

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/82876673762.jpg)

Guys - OK, I like Staier but currently own 3 'box sets' of Haydn's Piano Sonatas - what is on these 3 discs and do they include material different from the other sonatas that I already own (I think the answer will be 'yes & no') - BUT for that price, I'll BUY IN! Thanks for any info - Dave

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 15, 2010, 03:33:54 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 15, 2010, 01:36:32 PM
Not really. My second package was sent by Abeille Musique on February 15, but it arrived just the last Friday, three days before the first package sent on February 3, which just arrived today (both of them by regular mail and, read my lips, without taxes! :D).

Ah, well it pays to be patient. :) The release date in North America was March 9th, last Tuesday. Even then, no one had it for a few days. So, now we shall see. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 15, 2010, 03:36:40 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on March 15, 2010, 03:33:13 PM
Guys - OK, I like Staier but currently own 3 'box sets' of Haydn's Piano Sonatas - what is on these 3 discs and do they include material different from the other sonatas that I already own (I think the answer will be 'yes & no') - BUT for that price, I'll BUY IN! Thanks for any info - Dave

Dave, well since your other sets are already complete, there is certainly nothing you don't have. What they are is a good sampling of all different periods. All on fortepiano. Mainly what you will get different is the personality of the player. I am quite keen on Staier so that's good enough for me. :) You're right, for $12/3disks, this can't be missed!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 15, 2010, 03:45:57 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 15, 2010, 03:36:40 PM
Dave, well since your other sets are already complete, there is certainly nothing you don't have. What they are is a good sampling of all different periods. All on fortepiano. Mainly what you will get different is the personality of the player. I am quite keen on Staier so that's good enough for me. :) You're right, for $12/3disks, this can't be missed!

Evening Gurn - :) Thanks for the info - will add to my 'too buy' list! Pretty much equal to the tip I left at our local mountain bistro last night after taking Susan to the Chris Thile concert - FAB DEAL! Dave ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Franco on March 16, 2010, 06:12:45 AM

Well shucks, I have been a bit distracted lately and neglected to check this thread for a couple of weeks, and there you go - I missed one of my favorite things: another argument on modern vs. fortepiano for Haydn, et al.

I once was a barking mad anti-fortepiano-ite, but alas, while I still place myself mostly in the modern instrument camp I now understand the issues involved and why some prefer period instruments and have acquired a nice stack of PI recordings which I do enjoy.

So, the argument has been very worthwhile for me and I thank all those who politely presented the PI view with intelligence and wit and maybe one day ukrneal will also learn to enjoy Haydn on fortepiano.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 16, 2010, 06:56:41 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 12, 2010, 10:50:26 AM
Yes. Evenings at the Florestan household for some piano and singing were incredibly commonplace.

"Oh, Fanny Florestan has a new sonata that Haydn wrote for her. Let's drop in for it and some punch tomorrow...". :)

8)

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 12, 2010, 10:54:55 AM
Totally right. Even in the theaters the people was not quiet during the performances. I recall a Mozart's letter where he said that he was waiting the public's reaction (shouts and applause) during certain passages of a symphony in Paris. :)

Well, if this is so, then I draw the following conclusions:

1. Being, as they were, written either for Eszterhazy himself or for Haydn's friends, the sonatas do not contain any arcane symbolism or esoteric profundity, are intended more (or solely) for entertainment than for musical rapture and ecstasy --- and as such, there is no need for concentrated (stiff and still) listening. This already makes the choice between fortepiano or modern piano less dramatic.

2. Being intended for a small audience in a small room of the eighteenth century, then this is the best way to experience them: played live, in a congenial and social atmosphere, with witty conversations, candle lights and champagne / punch / wine / whatever.

3. I guess that the sound of fortepiano is very different in the above conditions than in a recorded CD. Perhaps the furnitures and the draperies of Esterhazy's salon created a unique acoustics that is very difficult, if not down right impossible, to reproduce in a recording studio. And perhaps the live sound of fortepiano in rooms fitted for its acoustics is different than in studio recordings.

Just my two cents.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 16, 2010, 06:59:18 AM

Quote from: Franco on March 16, 2010, 06:12:45 AM
Well shucks, I have been a bit distracted lately and neglected to check this thread for a couple of weeks, and there you go - I missed one of my favorite things: another argument on modern vs. fortepiano for Haydn, et al.

I once was a barking mad anti-fortepiano-ite, but alas, while I still place myself mostly in the modern instrument camp I now understand the issues involved and why some prefer period instruments and have acquired a nice stack of PI recordings which I do enjoy.

So, the argument has been very worthwhile for me and I thank all those who politely presented the PI view with intelligence and wit and maybe one day ukrneal will also learn to enjoy the Haydn on fortepiano.

Yes, been a while since you stopped by, Franco. See what you missed? :D I'm afraid that this is a controversy that will go on well past my lifetime, but continuing to chip away, one non-believer at a time, is the only way to make a mark.

If it's OK for me to say, I definitely prefer the modern piano for anything composed after, oh, 1850 or so. :) Not like I would never listen to it. ;D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 16, 2010, 07:07:01 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 16, 2010, 06:56:41 AM
Well, if this is so, then I draw the following conclusions:

1. Being, as they were, written either for Eszterhazy himself or for Haydn's friends, the sonatas do not contain any arcane symbolism or esoteric profundity, are intended more (or solely) for entertainment than for musical rapture and ecstasy --- and as such, there is no need for concentrated (stiff and still) listening. This already makes the choice between fortepiano or modern piano less dramatic.

2. Being intended for a small audience in a small room of the eighteenth century, then this is the best way to experience them: played live, in a congenial and social atmosphere, with witty conversations, candle lights and champagne / punch / wine / whatever.

3. I guess that the sound of fortepiano is very different in the above conditions than in a recorded CD. Perhaps the furnitures and the draperies of Esterhazy's salon created a unique acoustics that is very difficult, if not down right impossible, to reproduce in a recording studio. And perhaps the live sound of fortepiano in rooms fitted for its acoustics is different than in studio recordings.

Just my two cents.

Nothing in there that will get any argument from me. The picture created is completely congruent with what I have read of the time (which is a lot!). :)

Quote1. Being, as they were, written either for Eszterhazy himself or for Haydn's friends, the sonatas do not contain any arcane symbolism or esoteric profundity, are intended more (or solely) for entertainment than for musical rapture and ecstasy --- and as such, there is no need for concentrated (stiff and still) listening.

This is exactly the point that I have been trying to make all along, especially in the Haydn String Quartet thread, and due to my near-inarticulate communication skills, I was not making an inroad into it. Even the bigger things, like the symphonies, can be viewed in this way. The only exceptions will be the sacred music and possibly the operas, depending on the occasion. Music din't become stiff, formal and lifeless until the Canon of Great Music came into being in the mid-19th century. Before then, it was fun, dammit. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on March 16, 2010, 07:10:16 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 16, 2010, 06:56:41 AM
Well, if this is so, then I draw the following conclusions:

1. Being, as they were, written either for Eszterhazy himself or for Haydn's friends, the sonatas do not contain any arcane symbolism or esoteric profundity, are intended more (or solely) for entertainment than for musical rapture and ecstasy --- and as such, there is no need for concentrated (stiff and still) listening. This already makes the choice between fortepiano or modern piano less dramatic.

Perhaps, or perhaps not. Maybe -- maybe -- profundity is available to those who look for them. Haydn could have followed the "What You Hear/Listen For Is What You Get" rule. But then, the mere existence of profundity to one listener need not necessarily imply intention. [To be abetted by facts, theories and hypotheses, later by Gurn. ;)]

By the way, with this particular conclusion, you seem to undermine the intellectual capacities of Haydn's friends. (Kings and Emperors were and are foolish, anyway. :D)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on March 16, 2010, 07:10:36 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 16, 2010, 06:56:41 AMPerhaps the furnitures and the draperies of Esterhazy's salon created a unique acoustics that is very difficult, if not down right impossible, to reproduce in a recording studio. And perhaps the live sound of fortepiano in rooms fitted for its acoustics is different than in studio recordings.

"Darling, would you please be so kind as to ask the maid to change the tapestries and rugs in the music room? I feel like hearing a period instrument recording of a Haydn keyboard piece on fortepiano."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 16, 2010, 08:00:30 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 16, 2010, 07:07:01 AM
Music din't become stiff, formal and lifeless until the Canon of Great Music came into being in the mid-19th century. Before then, it was fun, dammit. :)

I can't think of any work included in "The Canon of Great Music" that fits your description. :) However, I concede that the way of experiencing music has changed --- and not always for better. :)

Quote from: Opus106 on March 16, 2010, 07:10:16 AM
with this particular conclusion, you seem to undermine the intellectual capacities of Haydn's friends. (Kings and Emperors were and are foolish, anyway. :D)

No (and no :D ). It's just that back in Haydn's time music was no substitute for philosophy or science and was not supposed to contain or describe the mysteries of the Universe and Man. It was, as your hero put it: An agreeable harmony for the honour of God and the permissible delights of the soul.

Quote from: DavidRoss on March 16, 2010, 07:10:36 AM
"Darling, would you please be so kind as to ask the maid to change the tapestries and rugs in the music room? I feel like hearing a period instrument recording of a Haydn keyboard piece on fortepiano."

Ha ha, exactly :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 16, 2010, 08:13:43 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 16, 2010, 08:00:30 AM
I can't think of any work included in "The Canon of Great Music" that fits your description. :) However, I concede that the way of experiencing music has changed --- and not always for better. :)

Not the music, amigo, the audience. Hearing the music used to be fun, let's put it that way. Still is at MY house with air conducting, air piano, dancing, singing etc. I am a firm believer in "music should be fun". :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 16, 2010, 08:17:13 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 16, 2010, 08:13:43 AM
Not the music, amigo, the audience. Hearing the music used to be fun, let's put it that way. Still is at MY house with air conducting, air piano, dancing, singing etc. I am a firm believer in "music should be fun". :)

8)

Ah, yes, completely agreed when you put it this way. I have a very idiomatic way of conducting Haydn... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on March 16, 2010, 08:17:48 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 16, 2010, 08:13:43 AM
Not the music, amigo, the audience. Hearing the music used to be fun, let's put it that way. Still is at MY house with air conducting, air piano, dancing, singing etc. I am a firm believer in "music should be fun". :)

8)

Hopefully not the air-yawning I witnessed at a recital earlier this evening (not a fault of the pianist, mind you). ::)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 16, 2010, 08:27:13 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 16, 2010, 08:17:13 AM
Ah, yes, completely agreed when you put it this way. I have a very idiomatic way of conducting Haydn... :)

8)

Ideally you should be seated, as though at a harpsichord. So the hands are high, a lot of pointing between phrases, and some scowling at those rascally hornists in the back... :D

Quote from: Opus106 on March 16, 2010, 08:17:48 AM
Hopefully not the air-yawning I witnessed at a recital earlier this evening (not a fault of the pianist, mind you). ::)

Pity, he/she must have been discouraged over seeing all those tonsils. Reminds me of Mozart's letter to Papa from Paris about the lady who was sewing with her friends during the music and pretty much ignoring him... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 16, 2010, 09:37:04 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 16, 2010, 08:27:13 AM
Ideally you should be seated

I never conduct standing, be it Haydn or Mahler! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 16, 2010, 02:12:17 PM

Quote from: DarkAngel on March 15, 2010, 03:04:00 PM

WOW.....three Amazon sellers have it for under $12 new, that's a great deal

Well, today I put in an order at the price above (+ $3 S/H) on the Marketplace for the 3-disc Staier set - hard to resist! Dave ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on March 17, 2010, 02:56:24 AM

Quote from: SonicMan on March 16, 2010, 02:12:17 PM
Well, today I put in an order at the price above (+ $3 S/H) on the Marketplace for the 3-disc Staier set - hard to resist! Dave ;D

I see three sellers currently offering the discs for less than $12. Kindly let us know how if the order gets through successfully. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 17, 2010, 03:27:45 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on March 17, 2010, 02:56:24 AM
I see three sellers currently offering the discs for less than $12. Kindly let us know how if the order gets through successfully. :)

Well, I used a MP retailer in Pennsylvania (96% positive comments) - price was $11.84 + $2.98 - only about 3 states away from me, so I'm expecting a quick and hopefully a positive transaction - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Eddie Williamson on March 18, 2010, 03:19:10 AM

Quote from: SonicMan on March 09, 2010, 11:25:00 AM
Currently reading the March-April 2010 issue of Fanfare - James North has a lengthy review of the Buchberger Quartet performances, which is reprinted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=225322) for those interested - this group has been both applauded and berated in this thread - this current review is quite positive - provided FYI - :)

I read that. Gushing review.

I haven't posted on this board in a while. Trying to decide which Haydn quartets to get: Buchberger or Auryn or Festetics? Interested in performance only, not value. Thanks!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on March 18, 2010, 04:55:58 AM

Quote from: Eddie Williamson on March 18, 2010, 03:19:10 AM
I read that. Gushing review.

I haven't posted on this board in a while. Trying to decide which Haydn quartets to get: Buchberger or Auryn or Festetics? Interested in performance only, not value. Thanks!

Not one of your choices, but I enjoy the Tatrai on Hungaroton.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 18, 2010, 05:24:14 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 16, 2010, 07:07:01 AM
Even the bigger things, like the symphonies, can be viewed in this way.

Well, taking into account that frequently the musicians in the Eszterhazy's orchestra outnumbered the audience, I guess that performing the symphonies in a 1000-seat concert hall is as un-Haydnesque as it gets. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 18, 2010, 05:30:24 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 18, 2010, 05:24:14 AM
Well, taking into account that frequently the musicians in the Eszterhazy's orchestra outnumbered the audience, I guess that performing the symphonies in a 1000-seat concert hall is as un-Haydnesque as it gets. :)

I love the way you think... :)

Yes, for anything in the first 40 or so, figure 18 musicians and 8-10 audience members. Hell of a world premiere! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Clever Hans on March 18, 2010, 10:28:18 AM

Quote from: Eddie Williamson on March 18, 2010, 03:19:10 AM
I read that. Gushing review.

I haven't posted on this board in a while. Trying to decide which Haydn quartets to get: Buchberger or Auryn or Festetics? Interested in performance only, not value. Thanks!

Quatuor Mosaïques. No one else I've heard plays with the same warmth and colors.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on March 18, 2010, 05:40:55 PM

Y'all might find it gratifying to learn that I'm loving the Quatuor Mosaiques Haydn opus 20 so much that I just followed it up with this:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Z4MUZVhEL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Seriously, I've never paid so much attention to Haydn before, having always drifted along with the surface beauty and charm and never giving the music much thought--or my full attention. Okay, so maybe there's nothing so gut-wrenching as Beethoven or so sublime as Sibelius, but who says you gotta have that to be great? Somewhere in the liner notes to the Mosaiques's op 20 set is a reference to the character of these quartets as "operatic." And so they are!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 18, 2010, 05:47:02 PM

David,
I DO find it gratifying, I'm delighted for you. The essence of Haydn is that he is a tremendous entertainer at any level that you care to approach his music. I like the Mosaiques rendition of Op 20, it is a different take from my other favorite, the Festetics, but both of them seem to grasp that entertainment factor better than many do. Not as though it was an academic exercise, but music that still has a breath of life left in it. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
The English Concert / Pinnock - Hob 01 043 Symphony in Eb 2nd mvmt - Adagio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on March 19, 2010, 03:16:38 AM

By coincidence, I am taking the opposite route to David Ross. I've been listening to the Mosaiques Op76/77 box set, and I've just ordered their Op 20/33 box. Really looking forward to hearing this music as I am not familiar with it. By way of contrast, I'm also awaiting delivery of the late Masses by Bruno Weil .... it seemed to get good reviews and the price is unbeatable ... less than 10 euros for these incredible masterpieces.

I enjoy almost all classical composers, but Hadyn is the one I listen to most frequently ......

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on March 20, 2010, 02:41:21 PM

Quote from: Clever Hans on March 18, 2010, 10:28:18 AM
Quatuor Mosaïques. No one else I've heard plays with the same warmth and colors.

Seconded. seconded. seconded. Having the Quatuor Casals on my ears for a few days... Disappointment at the highest level, but only because I thought they might set new standards. They don't. QM remains unchallenged. The Buchbergers, however, are always an interesting backup, given their rambunctious take on the music. The Auryn Cruise is a completely different approach. "Liebst Du um Schoenheit", then Auryn is your cup of tea.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 20, 2010, 05:11:18 PM

Just a note in passing: does anyone else find the tempo marking for the 2nd movement of Symphony #70 in D as quintessentially Haydn as I do? Which is to say, amusing.

"Specie d'un Canone in Contrapunto Doppio: Andante"

"A kind of canon in limping counterpoint: moving along".

I don't know if a whole lot of composers before Satie used things like this. Other than the inimitable Mozart, I can't remember running across any. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Staier, Andreas - Hob 16 37 Sonata in D for Fortepiano 3rd mvmt - Finale: Presto ma non troppo

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 20, 2010, 05:15:25 PM

Quote from: alkan on March 19, 2010, 03:16:38 AM
By coincidence, I am taking the opposite route to David Ross. I've been listening to the Mosaiques Op76/77 box set, and I've just ordered their Op 20/33 box. Really looking forward to hearing this music as I am not familiar with it. By way of contrast, I'm also awaiting delivery of the late Masses by Bruno Weil .... it seemed to get good reviews and the price is unbeatable ... less than 10 euros for these incredible masterpieces.

I enjoy almost all classical composers, but Hadyn is the one I listen to most frequently ......

Forwards or backwards, you can't go wrong, Alkan. As noted earlier, I like that set a lot. I prefer the Festetics because they are much more unbuttoned, but that doesn't mean at all that I don't really enjoy the note perfection of the Mosaiques either. Haydn works well any way at all, other than ponderously serious. I can just turn that right off and pitch it. Or leave it for Jens... (just kidding, Jens ;) ). :D

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Staier, Andreas - Hob 16 38 Sonata in Eb for Fortepiano 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 20, 2010, 05:45:28 PM

1769 was a relative respite for Haydn. Not a single symphony can be reliably dated to that year, no church music, no major chamber works. He began the set of 6 duos for violin & viola, and also completed an Italian opera (La Pescatrici (The Fisherwomen) Hob 28_04, based on a libretto by Goldoni)) but only a delightful fragment remains (with a completion by Robbins-Landon which proves why he was a musicologist instead of a composer). There is undoubtedly more, probably lost forever, but this is what remains:

1769
Hob 01_106 Le Pescatrici Sinfonia in D

Hob 06_04 Duo in D for Violin & Viola
Hob 06_06 Duo in C for Violin & Viola

Hob 11_073 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 4
Hob 11_074 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 4
Hob 11_075 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 4
Hob 11_076 Trio in C for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 4
Hob 11_077 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 4
Hob 11_078 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 4
Hob 11_079 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 4
Hob 11_080 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 4

Hob 18_04 Concerto in G for Keyboard

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Cerasi, Carole - Hob 16 40 Sonata in G for Fortepiano 2nd mvmt - Presto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 23, 2010, 09:26:08 AM

Quote from: SonicMan on March 01, 2010, 10:43:03 AM
Well, I'm not sure if this disc has already been discussed in this or another thread, but just some further thoughts might be worth more rumination:

Sonatas for Violin & Fortepiano w/ Alberto Bologni (violin, Santo Serafino, 1734) & Giuseppe Modugno (fortepiano, Johann Schantz, 1815) - of course the initial question is whether Papa Joe wrote music for this duo of instruments?

There are 5 compositions listed w/ the following Hoboken designations: Hob.XV a N. 1 (B flat major), Hob.XV a N. 2 (D major), Hob.XV a N. 3 (C major), Hob.XV:31 (E flat minor), & Hob.XV:32 (G major). Now in reviewing the catalog in the New Grove Haydn bio, the last two are listed and attributed to the composer; however, I cannot definitely locate the first three - real or not? The performers claim these are authentic. Interestingly, the Hob.XV works are generally listed as 'Keyboard Trios', so another curiosity.

Concerning the performance, these are well done, pleasant, and with an up front recording stage - the violin is a little bright (wonder if it is gut or steel strung?); the fortepiano sounds great! A review from the Jan-Feb 2010 issue of the ARG is pictured below along w/ the cover art for the disc. Dave :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnFPianoViolinSonatas/798912972_dqiQB-O.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnViolinSonatas/800096690_BBGxa-O.jpg)

Dave,
I did finally find a review of this disk, it has a little supplemental info that you might find interesting.

QuoteFranz Joseph HAYDN (1732 - 1809): "Sonatas for Violin and Fortepiano Hob. XVa - XV 31, 32"

Giuseppe Fausto Modugno, fortepiano; Alberto Bologni, violin
rec: Jan 12 - 13, 2009, Imola, Palazzo Monsignani-Sassatelli
Concerto - CD 2048 (© 2009) (63'16")

Sonata in B flat (H XVa,1); Sonata in D (H XVa,2); Sonata in C (H XVa,3); Trio (Sonata) in E flat minor (H XV,31); Trio (Sonata) in G (H XV,32)

The sonatas for keyboard and violin by Mozart and Beethoven belong to the standard repertoire for this scoring. But where is Haydn? He inspired both Mozart and Beethoven with his piano trios and string quartets, but why didn't he contribute to this genre?

Well, he did. Two of his trios for keyboard, violin and cello were originally written without a part for the cello. It is therefore certainly legitimate to perform the Sonatas in E flat minor and in G major with only keyboard and violin as on this disc. That is not all. In the programme notes to his recording of all Haydn's piano trios (Brilliant Classics) the Dutch fortepiano specialist Bart van Oort has stated that virtually all piano trios can be performed without the participation of a cello. In a live performance the cello is needed to support the relative weak bass of the fortepiano and add some colour to the ensemble. But for the realisation of the musical material the cello is not really needed.

This offers an interesting perspective for players like Giuseppe Fausto Modugno and Alberto Bologni. They could have added some of the piano trios to the Sonatas H XV, 31 and 32. But instead they have chosen three sonatas whose authenticity seems not to be established, even though they are convinced they were written by Haydn. In a way this choice is to be applauded. Compositions of doubtful authenticity are seldom played and recorded. That is also the case with the three sonatas catalogued as H XVa. But as their musical quality is far less doubtful than their authenticity one may be thankful that they are available on disc now.

What all these sonatas have in common is that the keyboard has the lead, and that the violin is largely reduced to doubling one of the lines of the keyboard. This, of course, is mostly the right hand, but sometimes the violin plays with the bass line of the keyboard part. Only now and then it follows its own path. There is nothing special about this: in sonatas of this kind in Haydn's time this was the rule rather than the exception.

The artists give technically good performances and play with passion and zest, and there is also no lack of drama where it is required. That should be reason enough to recommend this disc. But I have two serious reservations.
Firstly, I think the choice of the fortepiano was a mistake. Giuseppe Modugno plays an instrument which was made by Johann Schantz in 1815. This instrument is far too modern for this repertoire. Considering the development of the fortepiano in that time this instrument is hardly more 'authentic' in Haydn than a modern concert grand. In addition, the Sonatas in E flat minor and in G major were written for the English pianist Therese Jansen, who will have used an instrument with English rather than Viennese action.
Secondly, this is chamber music and needs the intimacy of the salon, but that is a quality sorely mssing here. It seems this recording has been made in a large space and that results in a unnaturally big sound and far too much reverberation. The recording level is also quite high, so one is well advised to turn down the volume control, in particular when listening through headphones.

I nevertheless commend them to your attention, mainly because of the repertoire. It is wise to listen to a couple of tracks before purchase. This way you can decide for yourself whether the choice of the fortepiano and the quality of the recording are bothering you as much as they did me.

Johan van Veen (© 2010)

I will have to find this for myself, I guess. Amazon have it.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 23, 2010, 10:53:42 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 23, 2010, 09:26:08 AM
Dave,
I did finally find a review of this disk, it has a little supplemental info that you might find interesting.

I will have to find this for myself, I guess. Amazon have it.... :)

Hi Gurn - thanks for the additional information on the Sonatas for Violin & Fortepiano w/ Bologni & Modugno - purchased through the Amazon Marketplace for $11.84 (plus the usual $3 S/H) - but these are Haydn rarities for the 'completest' like us, I guess. Not sure that I completely agree w/ the comment on 'too much reverberation' but would certainly be curious about the actual recording venue and the strings used on the violin - still cannot find much more doing some 'googling' myself at the moment? Dave :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Franco on March 23, 2010, 11:04:39 AM

There is an interesting recording of Haydn: Sonata for Piano and Violin in G major (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Violin-Sonata-Debussy/dp/B00005R1JS) done by Benjamin Britten and Yehudi Menuhin.

Not HIP, but interesting nonetheless.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 23, 2010, 11:12:34 AM

Quote from: SonicMan on March 23, 2010, 10:53:42 AM
Hi Gurn - thanks for the additional information on the Sonatas for Violin & Fortepiano w/ Bologni & Modugno - purchased through the Amazon Marketplace for $11.84 (plus the usual $3 S/H) - but these are Haydn rarities for the 'completest' like us, I guess. Not sure that I completely agree w/ the comment on 'too much reverberation' but would certainly be curious about the actual recording venue and the strings used on the violin - still cannot find much more doing some 'googling' myself at the moment? Dave :D

Well, his statement that an 1815 Schantz might not be the right instrument makes perfect sense to me, at least if we are talking about the time they were written (early 1790's). Even an 1795 Erard (French) might be a more appropriate choice, I would think. Obviously I can't comment on the sound, beyond saying that I share his vision of an intimate salon setting as opposed to a concert venue. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 23, 2010, 11:13:26 AM

Quote from: Franco on March 23, 2010, 11:04:39 AM
There is an interesting recording of Haydn: Sonata for Piano and Violin in G major (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Violin-Sonata-Debussy/dp/B00005R1JS) done by Benjamin Britten and Yehudi Menuhin.

Not HIP, but interesting nonetheless.

The mere fact that they performed it is interesting in and of itself. Certainly they were up to the task. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on March 24, 2010, 09:27:31 AM

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0782124021825.jpg)

Another super cheap Haydn keyboard sonatas set (piano) has surfaced, 9 CDs for 13 euros........check some samples, sounds very good to me. (USA buyers beware of high JPC shipping costs)

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Joseph-Haydn-S%E4mtliche-Klaviersonaten-Vol-1-3/hnum/3567959 (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Joseph-Haydn-S%E4mtliche-Klaviersonaten-Vol-1-3/hnum/3567959)

Anyone have this by chance......hard to go wrong at that price

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 24, 2010, 03:32:17 PM

Quote from: DarkAngel on March 24, 2010, 09:27:31 AM
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0782124021825.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnPSsStaier/816990554_a7SFH-O.jpg)

Another super cheap Haydn keyboard sonatas set (piano) has surfaced, 9 CDs for 13 euros........check some samples, sounds very good to me. (USA buyers beware of high JPC shipping costs)

Anyone have this by chance......hard to go wrong at that price

DA - boy, LOL! ;D Yet more Haydn on the keyboard - guess that it takes those 200th, 250th, etc. anniversarys of births or deaths to bring out these 'super value' packages - just received my Staier box the other day and have not had a chance to spin the first disc - not complete, but recommended here!

But will always be interested in more comments on Haydn's recordings - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on March 24, 2010, 04:00:50 PM

Sonic
I just love that Staier sonata collection you now have.......

Never heard of Walter Olbertz before, but those samples sound good and this has to be the cheapest Haydn sonata 9 CD set I have ever seen at 13 euros.....the 10 CD Jando/Naxos set selling for 40 euros

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 24, 2010, 05:04:32 PM

Well, I'm not interested in another modern piano collection, but if I was, Olbertz would certainly deserve some consideration. His forte, BTW, is accompanying Lieder singers, a rare talent which he possesses in spades. :)

Glad you got that Dave. I got my volume 2 last Saturday, so now I have the whole set too (after 2 years!). Boy, if I had to pick between some of these versions, I would be hard-pressed... :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
L'Estro Armonico / Solomons - Hob 01 039 Symphony in g 2nd mvmt - Andante

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on March 26, 2010, 12:08:07 AM

This new recording seems to be a rarity - at least I personaly never heard of the piece before.

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0845221050362.jpg)

Samples at jpc (http://ttp://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Joseph-Haydn-Applausus-Jubil%E4umskantate/hnum/7956570) Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002JP9HW6/)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 26, 2010, 04:17:32 AM

Quote from: Que on March 26, 2010, 12:08:07 AM
This new recording seems to be a rarity - at least I personaly never heard of the piece before.

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0845221050362.jpg)

Samples at jpc (http://ttp://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Joseph-Haydn-Applausus-Jubil%E4umskantate/hnum/7956570) Amazon.com (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002JP9HW6/)

Q

Yes, it IS a rarity. There is one other recording of it, on Berlin Classics IIRC, and it has been OOP for several years. Used copies can be had for <>$100 though. ::) Anyway, to the disk at hand; I have had it on pre-order since January and the release date has been pushed back 3 or 4 times. Currently, US release is slated for the last of April. Since I have had it bought and paid for for what will be 3.5 months by then, I am rather more looking forward to it than usual. BTW, that's one, big cantata, eh? :o

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on March 26, 2010, 04:25:15 AM

I was listening to Haydn's Baryton Octets a few days ago and I heard something that was really familiar as if it was a concerto or a symphony before. Does anyone know of any borrowing or transcriptions between the two? If this draws a blank I'll try to relisten and be more specific about which work. ???

It's kind of weird but pleasant to suddenly hear something you've heard before transformed. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 26, 2010, 04:28:35 AM

Quote from: DavidW on March 26, 2010, 04:25:15 AM
I was listening to Haydn's Baryton Octets a few days ago and I heard something that was really familiar as if it was a concerto or a symphony before. Does anyone know of any borrowing or transcriptions between the two? If this draws a blank I'll try to relisten and be more specific about which work. ???

It's kind of weird but pleasant to suddenly hear something you've heard before transformed. :)

Yeah, know for sure that Haydn did stuff like that, although I can't recall anything from the octets specifically. Let me know which of them and I'll have a listen too, maybe we can spot it out. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on March 26, 2010, 04:35:36 AM

I'll give another listen today and see if I can find it. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 26, 2010, 06:04:14 AM

Quote from: DavidW on March 26, 2010, 04:25:15 AM
I was listening to Haydn's Baryton Octets a few days ago and I heard something that was really familiar as if it was a concerto or a symphony before. Does anyone know of any borrowing or transcriptions between the two? If this draws a blank I'll try to relisten and be more specific about which work. ???

It's kind of weird but pleasant to suddenly hear something you've heard before transformed. :)

Some far memories of the Sturm und Drang symphonies? Symphony No. 51, for example? :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on March 26, 2010, 06:18:21 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 26, 2010, 06:04:14 AM
Some far memories of the Sturm und Drang symphonies? Symphony No. 51, for example? :)

Yes that's it! One of the Divertimenti sounds exactly like Symphony #51!! :) :) :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gabriel on March 27, 2010, 01:51:15 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 20, 2010, 05:11:18 PM
Just a note in passing: does anyone else find the tempo marking for the 2nd movement of Symphony #70 in D as quintessentially Haydn as I do? Which is to say, amusing.

"Specie d'un Canone in Contrapunto Doppio: Andante"

"A kind of canon in limping counterpoint: moving along".

I don't know if a whole lot of composers before Satie used things like this. Other than the inimitable Mozart, I can't remember running across any. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Staier, Andreas - Hob 16 37 Sonata in D for Fortepiano 3rd mvmt - Finale: Presto ma non troppo

Gurn, I think you are mistaking different symphonies. "Contrapunto doppio" doesn't mean "limping counterpoint", but "double counterpoint". I have the feeling that you were unconsciously thinking about the "Menuet alla zoppa" from the 58th symphony, which literally and musically "limps" in a very attractive way. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on March 27, 2010, 03:12:14 AM

Quatuor Mosaïques's op 64, 76, & 77 arrived. Really dig 76:2 in D Minor! hear it on youtube, here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCXg8xo31h0&feature=related)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 27, 2010, 05:05:25 AM

Quote from: Gabriel on March 27, 2010, 01:51:15 AM
Gurn, I think you are mistaking different symphonies. "Contrapunto doppio" doesn't mean "limping counterpoint", but "double counterpoint". I have the feeling that you were unconsciously thinking about the "Menuet alla zoppa" from the 58th symphony, which literally and musically "limps" in a very attractive way. ;)

Yes, Gabriel, you are correct. I was moving along quickly with everything but my thinking when I wrote that. ::)

Haven't seen you in a while, hope you are well. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
L'Estro Armonico / Solomons - Hob 01 049 Symphony in f 1st mvmt - Adagio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 27, 2010, 11:41:16 AM

Haydn in London
La Gaia Scienza
Marco Brolli [traverse flute, Martin Wenner, Singen 2004, alter Carl August Grenser, Dresden c. 1790]
Stefano Barneschi [violin, Jacques Boquay, Paris 1719]
Paolo Beschi [violoncello, Carlo Antonio Testore, 1754]
Federica Valli [fortepiano, Andrea Restelli, Milano 2005, alter Ludwig Dulcken, Dresden 1790-95]
Rec.: Giardino Crema, Italy, November 2008
Winter & Winter

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ieiNyIgaL._SS400_.jpg)

It includes:

Piano Trio No. 28 in D major, Hob. XV:16 (1790)
Piano Trio No. 29 in G major, Hob. XV:15 (1790)
Piano Trio No. 30 in F major, Hob. XV: 17 (1790)
The Surprise Symphony No.94 in G major - Adaptation for fortepiano, flute, violin & violoncello by Ludwig Wenceslaus Lachnith (1793)

Listening to this Haydn in London, I have again thought about what a wonderful set Brilliant Classics made with the complete piano trios. In fact, La Gaia Scienza gives excellent performances, but I feel them slightly cold compared to the Van Swieten Trio -with the flutist Marion Moonen-, probably because of the usual sense of urgency in the performances of La Gaia Scienza, what in a certain degree reduces the feeling of complicity and great fun among the performers that you hear in the Brilliant recording. Additionally, the cello sounds more prominent and integrated in the Brilliant disc dedicated to the same trios.

Anyway, a highly recommendable recording, especially to listen to that spectacular Italian fortepianist Federica Valli.

Here the first movement "Allegro" of the Piano Trio No. 28:

http://www.divshare.com/flash/playlist?myId=10895064-c22

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 27, 2010, 01:11:43 PM

This looks worth of more detailed investigation:

(http://www.gothic-catalog.com/v/vspfiles/photos/LRCD-1109-2.jpg)

Haydn Sonatas: Galanterien to Sturm und Drang
Ulrika Davidsson (fortepiano, clavichord)

Some details here. (http://www.gothic-catalog.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=LRCD-1109)

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 27, 2010, 02:49:37 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 27, 2010, 01:11:43 PM
This looks worth of more detailed investigation:

(http://www.gothic-catalog.com/v/vspfiles/photos/LRCD-1109-2.jpg)

Haydn Sonatas: Galanterien to Sturm und Drang
Ulrika Davidsson (fortepiano, clavichord)

Some details here. (http://www.gothic-catalog.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=LRCD-1109)

:)

Indeed it does. I shall have it. Thanks for the find, Antoine. BTW, it's worth going to that link just to read the very interesting notes there. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gabriel on March 27, 2010, 04:54:49 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 27, 2010, 05:05:25 AM
Yes, Gabriel, you are correct. I was moving along quickly with everything but my thinking when I wrote that. ::)

Haven't seen you in a while, hope you are well. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
L'Estro Armonico / Solomons - Hob 01 049 Symphony in f 1st mvmt - Adagio

I'm fine, Gurn, but quite busy. I wish I had more time for contributing a bit to your Classical Corner, that has been quite inactive lately.

As I don't want to turn the discussion out of Haydnian matters, I will just point out that I have been listening to some recordings of his symphonies conducted by Thomas Fey. I know that they are not everyone's cup of tea, but they are certainly mine. Clear, dynamic, surprising, a bit astringent, technically impressive, marvelously self-reliant and even bombastic at times, that's the way I like Haydn to be played.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 27, 2010, 05:24:17 PM

Just starting listening to the 3-CD set of Staier doing the Sonatas & Variations on fortepianos (two different instruments rebuilt in the 1980s after originals from the early 1790s) - enjoying these performances (although I already own three 'complete' versions of these works, two on period instruments) - but was somewhat annoyed by a review on MusicWeb (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2005/May05/Haydn_Staier_82876673762.htm) by Michael Cookson - I completely disagree w/ his comments on the instruments used? Although he claims to love 'period' instruments, I don't think that he is a fan of the fortepiano - I can't believe that Staier would play on an instrument that did not reflect his ideal of doing these works on a piano of the times - would enjoy any thoughts from others - thanks! Dave - :D
\
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnPSsStaier/816990554_a7SFH-O.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 27, 2010, 05:33:28 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on March 27, 2010, 05:24:17 PM
Just starting listening to the 3-CD set of Staier doing the Sonatas & Variations on fortepianos (two different instruments rebuilt in the 1980s after originals from the early 1790s) - enjoying these performances (although I already own three 'complete' versions of these works, two on period instruments) - but was somewhat annoyed by a review on MusicWeb (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2005/May05/Haydn_Staier_82876673762.htm) by Michael Cookson - I completely disagree w/ his comments on the instruments used? Although he claims to love 'period' instruments, I don't think that he is a fan of the fortepiano - I can't believe that Staier would play on an instrument that did not reflect his ideal of doing these works on a piano of the times - would enjoy any thoughts from others - thanks! Dave - :D
\
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnPSsStaier/816990554_a7SFH-O.jpg)

;D IOW: "I love the fortepiano, especially when it sounds just like a modern grand piano..." :D

Um, duh! Well, no matter. The question, Dave, is what do YOU think of it? Personally I think they are fine sounding instruments, not even requiring the tag "an acquired taste". I definitely have some in that category, so I know the difference. As do we all, I suspect. :)

You like what you've heard so far? I am quite keen on those disks, always been a Staier fan. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
L'Estro Armonico / Solomons - Hob 01 058 Symphony in F 2nd mvmt - Andante

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 27, 2010, 05:54:54 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 27, 2010, 05:33:28 PM
;D IOW: "I love the fortepiano, especially when it sounds just like a modern grand piano..." :D

Um, duh! Well, no matter. The question, Dave, is what do YOU think of it? Personally I think they are fine sounding instruments, not even requiring the tag "an acquired taste". I definitely have some in that category, so I know the difference. As do we all, I suspect. :)

You like what you've heard so far? I am quite keen on those disks, always been a Staier fan. :)

Good evening Gurn - of course, you know that I love the fortepiano (obviously, a good instrument recorded well!) - so far, I'm certainly enjoying the Staier recordings - I was just annoyed by the review of a person who obviously does not like the instrument - now, I don't know this particular reviewer's usual comments, so was more curious if he is reflecting his own dislike or giving an 'honest' opinion - my feeling is the former? Dave :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 27, 2010, 06:01:46 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on March 27, 2010, 05:54:54 PM
Good evening Gurn - of course, you know that I love the fortepiano (obviously, a good instrument recorded well!) - so far, I'm certainly enjoying the Staier recordings - I was just annoyed by the review of a person who obviously does not like the instrument - now, I don't know this particular reviewer's usual comments, so was more curious if he is reflecting his own dislike or giving an 'honest' opinion - my feeling is the former? Dave :D

Oh yes, quite agree with that. Clearly the former. Where I chuckle, Dave, is that whenever anyone states their dislike for a particular period instrument sound, they nearly always preface it with something along the lines of "I love period instruments, but...". ::) Either you like it or you don't. Of course I know that you like it, you are a stalwart companion on that road. In fact, you like a heck of a lot of stuff that I don't care for, so I can but admire the breadth of your taste. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
L'Estro Armonico / Solomons - Hob 01 059 Symphony in A 1st mvmt - Presto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 28, 2010, 12:09:40 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 27, 2010, 06:01:46 PM
Oh yes, quite agree with that. Clearly the former. Where I chuckle, Dave, is that whenever anyone states their dislike for a particular period instrument sound, they nearly always preface it with something along the lines of "I love period instruments, but...". ::) Either you like it or you don't. Of course I know that you like it, you are a stalwart companion on that road. In fact, you like a heck of a lot of stuff that I don't care for, so I can but admire the breadth of your taste. :)

8)

I think that saying 'You like it or you don't' is not nuanced enough (at least for me). If one takes the reviewer at his word, he likes period performances, but feels one of the weakest instruments is the fortepiano. I can't evaluate his honesty, but assume he is being honest for the sake of argument. Still. I dislike when a reviewer takes a biased position even if it agrees with my position (which is what apears to be happening here, as he openly admits a bias against the sound - indidentally, if he had just left the first statement in the first paragraph, he would have been ok as it is a sensible recomendation for any disc). Then again, word smithing the discussion of the sound produced is a tricky business and can rub people the wrong way (don't I know it! :-[)

But having said that, and this is coming from a person who prefers modern instruments, I can sometimes enjoy period instruments. The keys are: 1) The quality of the intonation, 2) The quality of the sound produced (which covers all the rest). After that, there are the usual questions on style, energy, dynamics, etc. If the sound produced convinces on those two factors, I would consider buying it (yes, even fortepiano, although most of them will fail on one of those two factors for my taste). I recently bought a period performance (Handel) that seems to solve those two issues above as well as providing a good performance (and it even includes the dreaded harpsichord! :-X). We'll see.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: sTisTi on March 28, 2010, 07:38:21 AM

Quote from: DarkAngel on March 24, 2010, 09:27:31 AM
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0782124021825.jpg)

Another super cheap Haydn keyboard sonatas set (piano) has surfaced, 9 CDs for 13 euros........check some samples, sounds very good to me. (USA buyers beware of high JPC shipping costs)

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Joseph-Haydn-S%E4mtliche-Klaviersonaten-Vol-1-3/hnum/3567959 (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Joseph-Haydn-S%E4mtliche-Klaviersonaten-Vol-1-3/hnum/3567959)

Anyone have this by chance......hard to go wrong at that price

I have that box, it's great and it would really be madness not to buy it for 13 EUR...

While we're at it, maybe another interesting offer (I don't own it yet) at jpc? DECCA 10 CD box of Haydn's sacred works for 15 EUR:
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Joseph-Haydn-Die-gro%DFen-geistlichen-Werke/hnum/3537193

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on March 28, 2010, 07:50:40 AM

I agree with uknreal, like it or not is just too black and white. I don't see why one has to like all period instruments, looks like Cookson happens to like all but the fortepiano which he considers an abomination. :D

The truth to the matter is that the fortepiano sound is variable and a blanket these sound awful is not cool since they vary from almost harpischord sound to almost modern piano sound. I thought the Walter was closer to the latter, so I'm not sure why Cookson hated the sound that much much but still...

There seem to be many that are allergic to the sound of the fortepiano, so it did behoove Cookson to mention it. There certainly would be people reading the review who wouldn't know it was PI from the cover. Staier's recent recordings have been on the front page of itunes, so there are more prospective buyers than there are in the know forumites, many of which might not know that they were not piano recordings. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 28, 2010, 08:10:12 AM

Quote from: DavidW on March 28, 2010, 07:50:40 AM
I agree with uknreal, like it or not is just too black and white. I don't see why one has to like all period instruments, looks like Cookson happens to like all but the fortepiano which he considers an abomination. :D

The truth to the matter is that the fortepiano sound is variable and a blanket these sound awful is not cool since they vary from almost harpischord sound to almost modern piano sound. I thought the Walter was closer to the latter, so I'm not sure why Cookson hated the sound that much much but still...

There seem to be many that are allergic to the sound of the fortepiano, so it did behoove Cookson to mention it. There certainly would be people reading the review who wouldn't know it was PI from the cover. Staier's recent recordings have been on the front page of itunes, so there are more prospective buyers than there are in the know forumites, many of which might not know that they were not piano recordings. :)

Yes, but the entire basis of Dave's complaint (as I understand it) and of my reply to him is that Staier's fortepiano is so totally inoffensive that warning people off from it verges on idiocy. Now, if the same had been written about John Khouri's fortepiano in Hummel or Clementi, or Alexei Lubimov's in the first Beethoven disk, then I would have completely agreed, in fact, I would have said "only seasoned fortepiano lovers need apply". However, one can scarcely say the same about Staier's. Or even close. In addition, there are other features of fortepiano playing than the sound, I would enjoy for once to read a review by someone who could talk intelligently about how the pianist was able to take the trills effortlessly which he/she couldn't have done on a modern piano. It's like OK, they sound different. Get over it. Concentrate on some other aspect. ::)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Orchestra of the 18th Century \ Brüggen - Lvb Op 125 Symphony in d 2nd mvmt - Molto vivace

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on March 28, 2010, 08:14:20 AM

Quote from: DavidW on March 28, 2010, 07:50:40 AMI don't see why one has to like all period instruments, looks like Cookson happens to like all but the fortepiano which he considers an abomination. :D

The truth to the matter is that the fortepiano sound is variable and a blanket these sound awful is not cool since they vary from almost harpischord sound to almost modern piano sound.

Agree. My introduction to fortepiano was with one of those thin, tinny instruments that sounds like the bastard offspring of a modern piano and one of Beecham's harpsichords. I'm not sure I've ever fully overcome that prejudice, but in trying to keep an open mind I've kept listening...and recordings I've heard recently by both Staier and Brautigam may have done the trick. Listen, for instance, to this Staier Mozart sonata sample on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HADtL7a6wxg

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on March 28, 2010, 08:18:25 AM

That youtube link does sound charming Dave. He really lets the music breath, so it sounds effortless and enchanting. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on March 28, 2010, 08:55:42 AM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31V2uuiMRmL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Just a reminder to those buying the Staier sonatas.......there is an excellent CD with 3 Haydn concertos equally as brilliant, in case you have any doubts listen to Staier take flight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVjY4QQzCJw&feature=PlayList&p=D3E78CC038EDF509&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVjY4QQzCJw&feature=PlayList&p=D3E78CC038EDF509&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=2)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bulldog on March 28, 2010, 09:01:39 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 27, 2010, 06:01:46 PM
Oh yes, quite agree with that. Clearly the former. Where I chuckle, Dave, is that whenever anyone states their dislike for a particular period instrument sound, they nearly always preface it with something along the lines of "I love period instruments, but...". ::) Either you like it or you don't. Of course I know that you like it, you are a stalwart companion on that road. In fact, you like a heck of a lot of stuff that I don't care for, so I can but admire the breadth of your taste. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
L'Estro Armonico / Solomons - Hob 01 059 Symphony in A 1st mvmt - Presto

You're right on target. Cookson's own words tell us that he does not appreciate the fortepiano. With that in mind, his review is a waste of time for those who do fully appreciate the instrument.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on March 28, 2010, 09:06:09 AM

Quote from: sTisTi on March 28, 2010, 07:38:21 AM
I have that box, it's great and it would really be madness not to buy it for 13 EUR...

Took my own advice and placed order a few days ago......even though shipping to USA cost more than CDs did, samples sound better than my Jando/Naxos piano set, will report my findings

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 28, 2010, 09:17:07 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 28, 2010, 08:10:12 AM
Now, if the same had been written about John Khouri's fortepiano in Hummel or Clementi, or Alexei Lubimov's in the first Beethoven disk, then I would have completely agreed, in fact, I would have said "only seasoned fortepiano lovers need apply".

Well, additionally both of them are interesting and sensible fortepianists, Gurn; although I would say that John Khouri is rather (unfairly) unknown. I don't have that Beethoven by Lubimov, but I have collected almost every disc by John Khouri and he deserves a lot of credit not only as a performer, but also as a scholar (his liner notes and historical investigation are excellent). My last purchase was his 3-CD set with the complete sonatas for solo piano by Anton Eberl (Music & Arts), where several pieces are played on a pedal piano! One or two critics -maybe nobody else has listened to these discs :D- have also claimed for a stabler and robust instruments; apparently the Steinway D concert grand is hard to forget. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 28, 2010, 09:34:47 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 28, 2010, 09:17:07 AM
Well, additionally both of them are interesting and sensible fortepianists, Gurn; although I would say that John Khouri is rather (unfairly) unknown. I don't have that Beethoven by Lubimov, but I have collected almost every disc by John Khouri and he deserves a lot of credit not only as a performer, but also as a scholar (his liner notes and historical investigation are excellent). My last purchase was his 3-CD set with the complete sonatas for solo piano by Anton Eberl (Music & Arts), where several pieces are played on a pedal piano! One or two critics -maybe nobody else has listened to these discs :D- have also claimed for a stabler and robust instruments; apparently the Steinway D concert grand is hard to forget. ;D

Ooh, I'd like that (the Eberl), haven't seen it yet, but will. Anyway, I completely agree with you, Khouri is a very interesting fortepianist, and I am delighted to have those of his disks that I do have. But you will admit, I'm sure, that his pianos are not making any compromise in the way of trying to sound modern or mainstream, or whatever it is that lovers of modern pianos find conciliatory in some fortepianos. And the music is better for it, IMO. But meanwhile he will be unjustly obscure. So it goes. :)

Lubimov uses an original 1806 Broadwood in his disk with Op 13, 27 #2 & 53 on it (Erato 4509-94356-2). It is another case of an instrument that makes no compromises towards modern tastes. Lubimov is a heckuva player though and this is a nice disk. Anyway, this is all off the track of Haydn, but stuff happens. :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Orchestra of the 18th Century / Brüggen - LvB Op 055 Symphony #3 in Eb 2nd mvmt - Marcia funebre: Adagio assai

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 28, 2010, 09:39:58 AM

Quote from: Bulldog on March 28, 2010, 09:01:39 AM
You're right on target. Cookson's own words tell us that he does not appreciate the fortepiano. With that in mind, his review is a waste of time for those who do fully appreciate the instrument.

Thanks, Don, for summing up what I was wanting to say but struggling with, apparently. I guess I would rather aim at critics in general than anti-PIons in particular: if you don't like something generically, then why do you bother critiquing it for those who do? It would be like me writing criticism of Stockhausen... ::)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 28, 2010, 11:20:30 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 28, 2010, 09:34:47 AM
Ooh, I'd like that (the Eberl), haven't seen it yet, but will. Anyway, I completely agree with you, Khouri is a very interesting fortepianist, and I am delighted to have those of his disks that I do have. But you will admit, I'm sure, that his pianos are not making any compromise in the way of trying to sound modern or mainstream, or whatever it is that lovers of modern pianos find conciliatory in some fortepianos. And the music is better for it, IMO. But meanwhile he will be unjustly obscure. So it goes.

I totally agree about Khouri. He is a hard-HIPster.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 28, 2010, 09:34:47 AM
Lubimov uses an original 1806 Broadwood in his disk with Op 13, 27 #2 & 53 on it (Erato 4509-94356-2). It is another case of an instrument that makes no compromises towards modern tastes. Lubimov is a heckuva player though and this is a nice disk. Anyway, this is all off the track of Haydn, but stuff happens.

It's also -to some degree- the case with his Mozart piano sonatas; one of my favorite cycles.

Coming back to the topic: What do you think about Carole Cerasi? Talking about the instruments, I loved that clavichord. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 28, 2010, 11:26:49 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 28, 2010, 09:39:58 AM
... if you don't like something generically, then why do you bother critiquing it for those who do? It would be like me writing criticism of Stockhausen... ::)

I would say two or three things about Mahler... :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 28, 2010, 01:50:26 PM

Well, what an abundance of responses to the Staier review on MusicWeb - thanks all! :D

Having been a subscriber to Fanfare & American Record Guide the last few years, I've just found that sometimes CDs are sent to reviewers who obviously may not like the music and/or the instrumentation, and if I sense this ambivalence, trying to read 'between the lines' is not always easy; and trying to decide if such a review is 'positive', 'negative', or 'well, not sure' can be frustrating, esp. in deciding on a purchase - I just did not think that Cookson's review left the reader (particularly one not too familiar w/ a fortepiano) w/ enough of a definite opinion on trying to decide to buy the recording - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 28, 2010, 02:11:06 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 28, 2010, 11:20:30 AM
Coming back to the topic: What do you think about Carole Cerasi? Talking about the instruments, I loved that clavichord. :)

I have listened to the clavichord sonata several times now and am very pleased with it. She has a lighter touch than Adlam, for example, and brings out a lot of the feeling in that piece. I haven't listened to the fortepiano sonatas yet... :-[ (but I will!) :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 28, 2010, 02:17:45 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on March 28, 2010, 01:50:26 PM
Well, what an abundance of responses to the Staier review on MusicWeb - thanks all! :D

Having been a subscriber to Fanfare & American Record Guide the last few years, I've just found that sometimes CDs are sent to reviewers who obviously may not like the music and/or the instrumentation, and if I sense this ambivalence, trying to read 'between the lines' is not always easy; and trying to decide if such a review is 'positive', 'negative', or 'well, not sure' can be frustrating, esp. in deciding on a purchase - I just did not think that Cookson's review left the reader (particularly one not too familiar w/ a fortepiano) w/ enough of a definite opinion on trying to decide to buy the recording - Dave :)

Thanks for posting it, Dave. I see what you are saying about the reviewers, but maybe they should simply decline the offer when that happens. I don't know, it is one thing to approach that sort of challenge as a means of broadening one's horizons, but I think that it does a disservice to the reader if your motivations aren't clear. Or worse yet, when they are clearly antipathic. Don was right on the money when he said that if you are an experienced and avid listener a review of that kind is a waste of time. Pity really... :)

8)

----------------
Listening to:
Orchestra of the 18th Century / Brüggen - LvB Op 068 Symphony #6 in F 1st mvmt - Allegro ma non troppo

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 05, 2010, 04:55:48 PM

(http://www.preludeklassiekemuziek.nl/actueel_0809/haydn_acc24219.jpg)

Joseph HAYDN - 6 Sonatas for Violin and Viola
Anton Steck (violin)
Christian Goosses (viola)
Recorded September 26th-28th, 2008, Siemensvilla, Berlin,
TT: 70:54
Accent

Sei Solo per il Violino Hob. VI, 1-6

Research has suggested that Joseph Haydn may have written the here recorded sonatas primarily for tuition purposes. This can hardly have been the case. On the contrary: the sonatas' structure marks them out as challenging, concertante repertoire for solo violin. This is confirmed by Haydn's terminology: he entered the works in his "draft catalogue" under the heading "Solo per il Violino", which he later expanded to "6 Violin Solo mit Begleitung einer Viola". The "Solo per il Violino" designation is perfectly justified because in these sonatas the violin is treated as a concertante instrument with the viola in a mainly accompanying role. The sonatas therefore exemplify the accompanied solo, a direct development from the Baroque sonata for solo instrument and basso continuo. These six, stylistically homogeneous works were written together and form a self-contained series. The "draft catalogue" entry also shows them to be a set. Even external characteristics reveal conspicuous similarities between the movements.

Anton Steck is internationally renowned as a violinist devoted to music composed before 1840. The hallmarks of his career have been his far reaching new discoveries in violin and quartet repertoire and his tonal redefinition of familiar masterpieces. For years he was leader of the three Deutsche Grammophon orchestras: Musica Antiqua Köln, Les Musiciens du Louvre and Concerto Köln. In 1996 he founded the Schuppanzigh Quartet, and ensemble with which he regularly performs concerts and makes CD recordings, most recently on the ACCENT Label.

Excellent performances and recorded sound, but I think that these sonatas (Sei Solo per il Violino) should be tried by the violin solo, like Bach's Sei Solo a Violino senza Basso accompagnato. It would be more challenging for the violinist and it would be avoided the slightly distracting continuo role of the viola.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 05, 2010, 07:26:25 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 05, 2010, 04:55:48 PM
(http://www.preludeklassiekemuziek.nl/actueel_0809/haydn_acc24219.jpg)

Joseph HAYDN - 6 Sonatas for Violin and Viola
Anton Steck (violin)
Christian Goosses (viola)
Recorded September 26th-28th, 2008, Siemensvilla, Berlin,
TT: 70:54
Accent

Apparently, the only alternative version for these sonatas would be this one:

(http://content.answers.com/main/content/img/amg/classical_albums/cov200/cm100/m114/m11407vao7g.jpg)

Joseph HAYDN - Six Sonatas for Violin and Viola
Kazuo Okumura (violin), Hans Dusoswa (viola)
Etcetera , ADD, 81

The Haydn Edition (CD 135) includes a version licensed from Hungarton and performed by the Duo Ongarese, but on violin and cello.

Finally, it is rather curious that Accent doesn't indicate details on the instruments used in that recording.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 06, 2010, 04:21:59 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 05, 2010, 07:26:25 PM
Apparently, the only alternative version for these sonatas would be this one:

(http://content.answers.com/main/content/img/amg/classical_albums/cov200/cm100/m114/m11407vao7g.jpg)

Joseph HAYDN - Six Sonatas for Violin and Viola
Kazuo Okumura (violin), Hans Dusoswa (viola)
Etcetera , ADD, 81

The Haydn Edition (CD 135) includes a version licensed from Hungarton and performed by the Duo Ongarese, but on violin and cello.

Finally, it is rather curious that Accent doesn't indicate details on the instruments used in that recording.

Yes, that's the only alternative I've ever seen, and often not available except for a big price tag. I have had the Duo Ongarese disk for many years, and always enjoyed it greatly. Then when I got the Steck/Goosses disk, the combination of the viola and the gut strings threw the music into an entirely different perspective for me. This IS the original Haydn version; the cello version was most likely a simple re-score by the publisher. I've been giving some thought to your solo violin proposal. Not sure yet what I think of that. But one of the original published scores called it "6 Sonatas for Violin Solo with Basso continuo", so the basic concept of these being solo violin pieces doesn't violate any norms, with or without BC... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 10, 2010, 09:21:22 AM

These days I have been listening to my versions of Haydn's cello concertos. Today, this one:

(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/deutschehm74321935482.jpg)

Joseph Haydn - Cello Concertos/Sinfonia Concertante
Hidemi Suzuki (violoncello)
La Petite Bande
Recording: February 1998, Doopsgezindekerk Haarlem (NL)
Sigiswald Kuijken
DHM

It's impressive to hear how the ideas pointed out by Sigiswald Kuijken in the liner notes are musically expressed in these performances:

"All this results in a quite different effect from what we have been used to up to now in these concertos: the 19th (and 20th) century concerto tradition with its (nearly) always inherent aspect of 'heroism' (the individual artist against the background of a mighty orchestra, a kind of David and Goliath principle) is abandoned altogether here, and we are confronted with a much more gentle and intimate 'conversation' between the soloist and his colleagues - or with a discretely and efficiently supported 'monologue' spoken by the main actor. I am convinced that this solution is far more in keeping with the spirit of Haydn's music and indeed with the musical practice of his time as a whole".

... and the more interesting thing is that you can hear this, even when you compare this version with other HIP performances like Queyras/Freiburger Barockorchester. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2010, 10:18:34 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 10, 2010, 09:21:22 AM
These days I have been listening to my versions of Haydn's cello concertos. Today, this one:

(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/deutschehm74321935482.jpg)

Joseph Haydn - Cello Concertos/Sinfonia Concertante
Hidemi Suzuki (violoncello)
La Petite Bande
Recording: February 1998, Doopsgezindekerk Haarlem (NL)
Sigiswald Kuijken
DHM

It's impressive to hear how the ideas pointed out by Sigiswald Kuijken in the liner notes are musically expressed in these performances:

"All this results in a quite different effect from what we have been used to up to now in these concertos: the 19th (and 20th) century concerto tradition with its (nearly) always inherent aspect of 'heroism' (the individual artist against the background of a mighty orchestra, a kind of David and Goliath principle) is abandoned altogether here, and we are confronted with a much more gentle and intimate 'conversation' between the soloist and his colleagues - or with a discretely and efficiently supported 'monologue' spoken by the main actor. I am convinced that this solution is far more in keeping with the spirit of Haydn's music and indeed with the musical practice of his time as a whole".

... and the more interesting thing is that you can hear this, even when you compare this version with other HIP performances like Queyras/Freiburger Barockorchester. :)

Antoine,
Yes that is not only a very nice disk, but I thought the liner notes were highly illuminating vis-a-vis the musical aspects of these works.

I like my picture better though: ( :D )
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CelloSuzukicover.jpg)

Now I have the classic dilemma of having to choose between this one and my previous favorite, Tafelmusik/Bylsma. Guess I'll just have to listen to them a bunch more to help me think about it... 0:)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood - Hob 01 007 Symphony in C 4th mvmt - Finale: Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 10, 2010, 11:00:30 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2010, 10:18:34 AM
Antoine,
Yes that is not only a very nice disk, but I thought the liner notes were highly illuminating vis-a-vis the musical aspects of these works.

I totally agree, Gurn. And probably not just about these specific works, but about the general pre-Romantic notions of 'concerto' and 'soloist'.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2010, 10:18:34 AM
I like my picture better though: ( :D )
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CelloSuzukicover.jpg)

My cover is exactly the same, but the original jewel-case is put into a cardboard sleeve, which is the usual style in this DHM "Splendeurs" collection.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2010, 10:18:34 AM
Now I have the classic dilemma of having to choose between this one and my previous favorite, Tafelmusik/Bylsma. Guess I'll just have to listen to them a bunch more to help me think about it... 0:)

I would like to have that Bylsma recording; I have several of his discs, but not that one. My other HIP recordings are by Wispelwey/Florilegium and Queyras/Freiburg, and the No. 1 by Le Cercle de l'Harmonie. On modern instruments: Dupré/LSO/ECO and that recording included in the Brilliant Haydn Edition.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 10, 2010, 11:33:18 AM

What I found today on the Naïve website:

NAÏVE (http://www.naive.fr/#/work/haydn-london-symphonies)

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2010, 12:17:35 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 10, 2010, 11:33:18 AM
What I found today on the Naïve website:

NAÏVE (http://www.naive.fr/#/work/haydn-london-symphonies)

:)

Well, that certainly looks interesting. This is a conductor who I have been wanting to check out, maybe this is the ideal opportunity. Thanks for that, Antoine. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood - Hob 01 014 Symphony in A 1st mvmt - Allegro molto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on April 10, 2010, 01:24:08 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 10, 2010, 11:33:18 AM
What I found today on the Naïve website: NAÏVE (http://www.naive.fr/#/work/haydn-london-symphonies)

Thanks, Antoine--this may be just what I'm looking for. Love Minkowski's Mozart, and judging from the samples on the site you linked, I'll enjoy his London symphonies just as much.

Shows only as MP3 downloads on Amazon US, but Amazon Fr list the 4 CD set for ~€30.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 10, 2010, 02:22:09 PM

Quote from: DavidRoss on April 10, 2010, 01:24:08 PM
Thanks, Antoine--this may be just what I'm looking for. Love Minkowski's Mozart, and judging from the samples on the site you linked, I'll enjoy his London symphonies just as much.

Shows only as MP3 downloads on Amazon US, but Amazon Fr list the 4 CD set for ~€30.

... based on my experience shipping and handling costs from Amazon France are quite reasonable. Unfortunately, not the same case with JPC, although they frequently use the same mail service: DHL Germany. ::)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on April 11, 2010, 09:02:57 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 10, 2010, 11:33:18 AM
What I found today on the Naïve website:

NAÏVE (http://www.naive.fr/#/work/haydn-london-symphonies)

OHHHHHHHHHHH I want that Minkowski set!

But I will wait for it to appear on Amazon sellers USA, the samples passed my test especially the crucial menuet movements.......which is usually the downfall some sets, need lifted dance rythms not slow andante like crawl

Naive sound quality has always been very good to me :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on April 11, 2010, 09:53:49 AM

Also, it seems that Bruno Weil is continuing recording more symphonies:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4260052380628.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4260052380611.jpg)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on April 11, 2010, 01:55:30 PM

I wonder what else red they can find to put on the next cover - a traffic cone, perhaps? ;)

I am interested in how his recent recordings compare to the old Sony ones, which didn't make as big an impact with me as I had hoped...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 13, 2010, 08:40:00 AM

Ordered this disk today, courtesy of a rec by Antoine (who finds all the cool stuff!):
(http://www.gothic-catalog.com/v/vspfiles/photos/LRCD-1109-2.jpg)

Haydn Sonatas: Galanterien to Sturm und Drang
Ulrika Davidsson (fortepiano, clavichord)

This will complement nicely the other clavichord disks I have gotten over the last 6 months or so. A 5th one, not shown here, is 1 disk in the complete cycle by Schornsheim. Note that the disk by Davidsson as well as the one by Cerasi have only 1 or 2 works on clavichord, the rest on fortepiano. That's OK though, since the repertoire on these disks span much of his career, they are not all "early" or "late"works. If you like to be a bit adventurous on the keyboard side, I recommend any or all of these disks, I am delighted with what I have so far and continue to look for more. :)

8)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41vHI3m45XL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnAdlamClav/737226656_Xufhk-O.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31KSAM2ACQL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 14, 2010, 06:21:53 PM

I was wondering. Does anybody have any information regarding the supposed quality issue with the Tatrai set? The opus76 was recorded in 1964, when the ensemble was still in top form. I assume the rest of the set was recorded at a later date, but it seems strange to me that ALL of the set would be recorded years after the opus76. Surely, it must have been a gradual process of deterioration, which means those opuses which were recorded closer to the opus76 shouldn't be that far off in terms of quality, right? Inquiring minds want to know.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 14, 2010, 07:04:55 PM

I've heard their recordings of Haydn String Quartets, and had no problem with the sound at the time. It seemed fairly detailed, clean with spacious soundstage.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 15, 2010, 04:11:32 AM

I was talking about the quality of the performance, not the sound, heh. From what i understand, their later recordings are relatively lukewarm and are riddled with intonation problems. I was just curious to know which recording i should buy, and which i should avoid.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 15, 2010, 04:18:11 AM

Oh woops! Well there are many ardent fans, but I only care for their Op 76. I just prefer performances of those string quartets to be more fluid and dynamic. Haven't found an optimal set yet. I don't know if it's Tatrai's fault, I'm just picky. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 15, 2010, 04:18:14 AM

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on April 15, 2010, 04:11:32 AM
I was talking about the quality of the performance, not the sound, heh. From what i understand, their later recordings are relatively lukewarm and are riddled with intonation problems. I was just curious to know which recording i should buy, and which i should avoid.

I am unable to help you here, their Op 76 is the only one I've tried and their style didn't suit my taste at all. I know there are some folks that are inordinately fond of this group, hope they will check by here and share their thoughts. Meanwhile, if you haven't considered the Q. Mosaiques, listen to some clips. I doubt you'll find any performance issues there, although their style may not be to your taste...

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 15, 2010, 04:25:44 AM

Quick recs that I think you might like:

Op. 50-- Tokyo Quartet
Op. 71 & 74-- Griller Quartet

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 15, 2010, 04:57:34 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 15, 2010, 04:18:14 AM
I am unable to help you here, their Op 76 is the only one I've tried and their style didn't suit my taste at all.

Its one of the best String Quartet performances ever recorded. The style should be immaterial. Personally, i actually like the rustic quality they bring to Haydn, which seems quite appropriate, but to each his own i guess.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 15, 2010, 04:18:14 AM
I know there are some folks that are inordinately fond of this group, hope they will check by here and share their thoughts. Meanwhile, if you haven't considered the Q. Mosaiques, listen to some clips. I doubt you'll find any performance issues there, although their style may not be to your taste...

I have the Mosaiques. Its very good, probably among the best HIP recordings i have. Any word of them completing the set though? I have collected most of their recordings but there's still quite a few opuses missing, and i have no idea whether they are simply not in print anymore or if they were recorded at all.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 15, 2010, 04:58:11 AM

Quote from: DavidW on April 15, 2010, 04:25:44 AM
Quick recs that I think you might like:

Op. 50-- Tokyo Quartet
Op. 71 & 74-- Griller Quartet

Own both already. Took a while to acquire them, but well worth the effort. Amazing recordings. I also have the Ysaye recording of the Op. 54 which is also great.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 15, 2010, 05:13:20 AM

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on April 15, 2010, 04:57:34 AM
Its one of the best String Quartet performances ever recorded. The style should be immaterial. Personally, i actually like the rustic quality they bring to Haydn, which seems quite appropriate, but to each his own i guess.

Actually, I found it ponderous, which is not something that can be easily overlooked. :) They did, at that time, play wonderfully well, I was just mentally 2 bars ahead of them all the time... :D

QuoteI have the Mosaiques. Its very good, probably among the best HIP recordings i have. Any word of them completing the set though? I have collected most of their recordings but there's still quite a few opuses missing, and i have no idea whether they are simply not in print anymore or if they were recorded at all.

As far as I know they weren't recorded at all. It is amazing to me that they didn't do Op 50 in particular, and then Opp. 54, 55, 71 & 74, all of which are such interesting works. Well, it's not like they're dead yet... ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Josquin des Prez on April 15, 2010, 01:11:57 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 15, 2010, 05:13:20 AM
Well, it's not like they're dead yet... ;)

No, but i'm afraid their playing might change or deteriorate with time. Their recent Beethoven recordings for instance aren't as exiting as their Haydn, and it leaves me worried. They are the best candidate for a definitive HIP recording of Haydn's string quartets. I also have the Festetics but to me they aren't anywhere near as interesting which is a problem. Somebody should tell them to hurry the hell up.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on April 15, 2010, 02:30:28 PM

It's rather unfeasable that the series will be finished. Their rates of recording has slowed dramatically over the years - either they or their label no longer seem interested in the endevour of en-masse studio recording, despite the quartet remaining on the concert schedules...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on April 15, 2010, 03:45:45 PM

I enjoy the Tatrai recordings of the Haydn SQ so much that I haven't bothered with any others.

I think Bogey is a big fan too.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on April 16, 2010, 11:25:11 PM

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on April 14, 2010, 06:21:53 PM
I was wondering. Does anybody have any information regarding the supposed quality issue with the Tatrai set? The opus76 was recorded in 1964, when the ensemble was still in top form. I assume the rest of the set was recorded at a later date, but it seems strange to me that ALL of the set would be recorded years after the opus76. Surely, it must have been a gradual process of deterioration, which means those opuses which were recorded closer to the opus76 shouldn't be that far off in terms of quality, right? Inquiring minds want to know.

That may be a valid working hypothesis. However there's also the endemic problem of studio completism: if you have to record every single piece, it's bound to show you like some pieces better than the others - even iwhen you're performing Haydn SQs, with virtually no dud in the series. And the msitake in the Hungaroton cycle is they took so long. There's no telling if the members of the Tatrai quartet where as thrilled to see each other in the late eighties as in the sixties.

Here's a couple of dates on my sets:
Op 67: 1964
Op. 64: 1975
Op. 33: 1976
Op. 71/74: 1982
Op. 54/55: 1984
Op. 50: 1987

I have heard some people say that the Tatrai's Op. 17 or Op. 20 (I forget) are really the best in the bunch, but somehow I do not have those issues, and I don't know the recording dates.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on April 16, 2010, 11:58:21 PM

Quote from: Lethe on April 15, 2010, 02:30:28 PM
It's rather unfeasable that the series will be finished.

Probably true.

Quote from: Lethe on April 15, 2010, 02:30:28 PM
Their rates of recording has slowed dramatically over the years - either they or their label no longer seem interested in the endevour of en-masse studio recording, despite the quartet remaining on the concert schedules...

Probably true as well. The new release lists have a new recording of Schuberts Death and the Maiden. They seem to pick and choose their recordings very selectively. Though with their reputation, I think a few more Haydn discs qould selle quite well, as string quartet discs go.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on April 17, 2010, 01:12:48 AM

Quote from: erato on April 16, 2010, 11:58:21 PM
... They seem to pick and choose their recordings very selectively. Though with their reputation, I think a few more Haydn discs qould selle quite well, as string quartet discs go.

That's probably how they got their reputation in the first place. I'm glad they're not cruising on it but are only recording what they have truly internalized. There are enough quartets that simply record as soon as they can play the notes.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on April 17, 2010, 03:35:37 AM

Quote from: erato on April 16, 2010, 11:58:21 PM
The new release lists have a new recording of Schuberts Death and the Maiden.

This is a dream come true for me! Despite my love for their other discs, my favourite was their older Schubert one.

I pre-ordered, thanks for pointing it out :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: ccar on April 17, 2010, 05:07:00 AM

Quote from: Herman on April 16, 2010, 11:25:11 PM

Here's a couple of dates on my sets:
Op 67: 1964
Op. 64: 1975
Op. 33: 1976
Op. 71/74: 1982
Op. 54/55: 1984
Op. 50: 1987

I have heard some people say that the Tatrai's Op. 17 or Op. 20 (I forget) are really the best in the bunch, but somehow I do not have those issues, and I don't know the recording dates.

Op. 1,2,42,103:1967
Op. 9: 1963
Op. 17:1968
Op. 20:no recording date in the notes (probably pre 1975)
Op. 51:no recording date in the notes (probably pre 1979)
Op. 76:1964
Op. 77:1974

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on April 21, 2010, 10:27:58 AM

Quote from: Josquin des Prez on April 14, 2010, 06:21:53 PM
I was wondering. Does anybody have any information regarding the supposed quality issue with the Tatrai set? The opus76 was recorded in 1964, when the ensemble was still in top form. I assume the rest of the set was recorded at a later date, but it seems strange to me that ALL of the set would be recorded years after the opus76. Surely, it must have been a gradual process of deterioration, which means those opuses which were recorded closer to the opus76 shouldn't be that far off in terms of quality, right? Inquiring minds want to know.

If we are to believe the dates that have now been given, then perhaps Opp. 9/17/76 are the best that we have from the Tatrai. I recall a negative Amazon review of Op.33.

I got their Op.76 thinking this was the standard that all the reviewers had been crowing about, but, although there is much wonderful, spontaneous, and professionally intact (re: intonation, etc,...) playing, I find lots to criticize also. I believe I posted my first reactions on this Thread a few (haha) pages back.

On the good side, I'm listening to the No.5, "Largo", right now, and it certainly can emotionally hold its own with any rival. There is hushed intensity and concentration aplenty. And, the recording simply gives an up front and truthful image. Perhaps in the meneut I have heard more point, and greater intensity in the cool cello line, but there is really nothing to criticize here. The same goes for the similar No.1.

I find their No.4 "Sunrise" a little quick in the evocative introduction, but, as I'm scanning, I'm finding them more agreeable than before. I recall a consensus that No.4 was the weakspot on the QM set.

The main problem for me is a really indercharacterized No.2 "Fifths", IMHO and all that jazz. I just don't hear it matching practically anyone here. I think I detect also a different venue, or something, in this particular track. The QM get my vote here, as they do in No.6.

My BOTTOM LINE here is that if this is what passes as the S**t for 30 years, then I conclude that the state of Haydn interpretation was in need at the time, and can't yet vouche for the ProArte Quartet. Though I get a thrill from the 1964 recording,... that old timey, good time feeling is surely present, the whole set seems kind of patchy to me. I wonder about the Aeolian here. Anyhow, I just don't think they're as rustic as hoped, or inspirational in their insights. Nos. 1, 3, & 5 are solid, though, standard and professional (not that the rest aren't, but,....).

I also have the Auryn, ABQ (1,5,6), Kodaly, and Alberni. I have flat out given No.6 to the QM, with No.2 a close second. I also enjoy the ABQ's original Teldec No.3 "Emperor", though just about everyone has something to say here. So far, I'm going to give No.4 to the old Orlando/Philips recording, though their recorded sound isn't as full as some. I wish they would release the whole set. That leaves Nos. 1&5, for which I don't mind having a lot of compares.

An entirely satisfying set has as of yet eluded me. The Auryn and ABQ are almost too good (especially the ABQ), though they are hard to fault. The Alberni's unique sound is a delight, with their primo Strads weaving streams of cotton candy, but they can sometimes be a touch underpowered. The Kodaly just seem to get lost in the mix for me.

I wonder about the Takacs set. Gurn, or Karl, has given the Carmina set high marks. Again, I wonder about the Aeolian. And I really wonder about the Kuijken/Denon.

There, I said it!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on April 21, 2010, 11:24:03 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on April 21, 2010, 10:27:58 AM

There, I said it!

Except no one knows what you actually said, apart from a lot of pleasant free-associative stuff.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2010, 06:38:31 PM

I am indecisive enough about this to throw it open to the group for input. I need to decide which versions to put into my Complete Haydn set of the following 5 period instrument sets that I have. Frankly, I like them all, although not all for the same reasons. If you have heard any of these and came away with a memory of it, please share here:

Tafelmusik / Weil
Concentus Musicus Wien / Harnoncourt
Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment / Kuijken
Hanover Band / Goodman
Orchestra of the 18th Century / Brüggen

I appreciate your input (and yes, it has to be one of these, I ain't gonna buy any more!). :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Trio 1790 - Hob 15 41 Trio in G for Keyboard & Strings 3rd mvmt - Adagio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 24, 2010, 07:40:07 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2010, 06:38:31 PM
I am indecisive enough about this to throw it open to the group for input. I need to decide which versions to put into my Complete Haydn set of the following 5 period instrument sets that I have. Frankly, I like them all, although not all for the same reasons. If you have heard any of these and came away with a memory of it, please share here:

Tafelmusik / Weil
Concentus Musicus Wien / Harnoncourt
Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment / Kuijken
Hanover Band / Goodman
Orchestra of the 18th Century / Brüggen

I appreciate your input (and yes, it has to be one of these, I ain't gonna buy any more!). :)

Hello Gurn - first, I'm amazed that I was not already on this thread! :-\

My only complete set is Adam Fischer, certainly a good 'single' recommendation; but I'd like to acquire a 'period' series, also - I own a half dozen discs of Goodman (cheap @ BRO on Helios) and a couple of discs of Kuijken - can't say that I have a preference, but I do like Goodman - just for my own knowledge, which of these sets are complete and have been released as a BIG box? Just have not checked lately and now look forward to other comments!

BTW - I had the Dorati box on order (the cheaper version at about $70) at Barnes & Noble, but they crapped out on me, so am still in the market for another complete set! Dave :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on April 24, 2010, 09:24:33 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2010, 06:38:31 PMI am indecisive enough about this to throw it open to the group for input. I need to decide which versions to put into my Complete Haydn set of the following 5 period instrument sets that I have. Frankly, I like them all, although not all for the same reasons. If you have heard any of these and came away with a memory of it, please share here:

Tafelmusik / Weil
Concentus Musicus Wien / Harnoncourt
Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment / Kuijken
Hanover Band / Goodman
Orchestra of the 18th Century / Brüggen

Sorry, Gurn, I'm not nearly well acquainted enough with any of these to help you in that way. However, if you decide against Brüggen and wish to dispose of his recordings, you know where to reach me. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on April 24, 2010, 11:08:50 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2010, 06:38:31 PM
I am indecisive enough about this to throw it open to the group for input. I need to decide which versions to put into my Complete Haydn set of the following 5 period instrument sets that I have. Frankly, I like them all, although not all for the same reasons. If you have heard any of these and came away with a memory of it, please share here:

Tafelmusik / Weil
Concentus Musicus Wien / Harnoncourt
Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment / Kuijken
Hanover Band / Goodman
Orchestra of the 18th Century / Brüggen

I appreciate your input (and yes, it has to be one of these, I ain't gonna buy any more!). :)

The top three would be my serious contenders, if pressed Kuijken ultimately drops out of the race. Whether Weil or Harnoncourt/CMW would depend on the individual symphony. I like Weil's lean and mean approach, a lot of fun as well, but Harnoncourt's willfulnes, boldness & gusto and the CMW's more rustic sound can win the day in some symphonies.

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Clever Hans on April 25, 2010, 08:00:09 AM

I think Kuijken's Paris set, or the big box set which includes them, is pretty darn good, if more contained than Harnoncourt's. It depends on the listener as to which is better. Some people have a problem with Harnoncourt's emphases, although I like his energy and think the approach is warranted specifically for the Paris symphonies.

Bruggen for London Symphonies. I haven't heard Harnoncourt here with the non-period instrument COE.
Bruggen's Paris set is good as well.

Maybe you have it covered, but what about Pinnock Sturm und Drang? No one really matches him there.

Harnoncourt/Concentus for Hornsignal, La Chasse 6-8, etc.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 25, 2010, 08:03:17 AM

Quote from: SonicMan on April 24, 2010, 07:40:07 PM
Hello Gurn - first, I'm amazed that I was not already on this thread! :-\

My only complete set is Adam Fischer, certainly a good 'single' recommendation; but I'd like to acquire a 'period' series, also - I own a half dozen discs of Goodman (cheap @ BRO on Helios) and a couple of discs of Kuijken - can't say that I have a preference, but I do like Goodman - just for my own knowledge, which of these sets are complete and have been released as a BIG box? Just have not checked lately and now look forward to other comments!

BTW - I had the Dorati box on order (the cheaper version at about $70) at Barnes & Noble, but they crapped out on me, so am still in the market for another complete set! Dave :D

Hey, Dave, well, making a choice among all that are out there is pretty damned tough. Those that I li9sted are just my PI ones, of course; I also have Fischer, Dorati, Karajan and probably others dating back from before my PI days. I am pretty sure that i have all the PI ones now though, since Hogwood et al never got that far in their set and I just can't think of any I have missed. I don't have Dorati's whole set, BTW, but they released the Paris ones in a Double Decca years ago and it was among my first Haydn symphonies. There is NO single complete PI cycle, and in fact you can't even put one together from parts since there has never been a PI recording of #79 or 81. Pretty disgusting thought right there... :-\

Quote from: DavidRoss on April 24, 2010, 09:24:33 PM
Sorry, Gurn, I'm not nearly well acquainted enough with any of these to help you in that way. However, if you decide against Brüggen and wish to dispose of his recordings, you know where to reach me. ;D

Interesting thought, David. That is a 13 disk set though, and I clearly like the hell out of some of them, so it is hard to see me breaking it up. I do, however, have a disk of Lanner waltzes that I might part with under the right circumstances... :D

Quote from: Que on April 24, 2010, 11:08:50 PM
The top three would be my serious contenders, if pressed Kuijken ultimately drops out of the race. Whether Weil or Harnoncourt/CMW would depend on the individual symphony. I like Weil's lean and mean approach, a lot of fun as well, but Harnoncourt's willfulnes, boldness & gusto and the CMW's more rustic sound can win the day in some symphonies.

Q, yes, I am very partial to Weil's version, no getting around it. The first couple times I listened to Harnoncourt I was amazed at the way he took a few things. This was the last set I got, so I already had some idea what every one else was doing. He was not doing that! Very interesting anyway.

Well, I am going to listen some more before making choices. I wouldn't be surprised to see me pick one from each set, and then a second from 1 other set, I guess that one will be the winner... :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Cleveland Orchestra / Szell (1963) - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 4th mvmt - Presto - Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 25, 2010, 08:12:18 AM

Quote from: Clever Hans on April 25, 2010, 08:00:09 AM
I think Kuijken's Paris set, or the big box set which includes them, is pretty darn good, if more contained than Harnoncourt's. It depends on the listener as to which is better. Some people have a problem with Harnoncourt's emphases, although I like his energy and think the approach is warranted specifically for the Paris symphonies.

Bruggen for London Symphonies. I haven't heard Harnoncourt here with the non-period instrument COE.
Bruggen's Paris set is good as well.

Maybe you have it covered, but what about Pinnock Sturm und Drang? No one really matches him there.

Harnoncourt/Concentus for Hornsignal, La Chasse 6-8, etc.

Hans, our posts crossed. Thanks for these thoughts. Yes, you are onto the problem right there. In fact I am quite pleased with Kuijken's set. It was my first PI Paris set and I was happy with it until I screwed up and got some others. :)

I do have all 6 disks of Pinnock's S & D symphonies, as well as Brüggen's, Hogwood's, Weil's, Solomons', and a bunch of singles as well. One thing for sure, there is more competition in the S & D's among the PI crowd than there is among the London's with the modern instrument groups, and that's saying something! :o And it is fair to say that it is virtually impossible to choose among those too. That, however, is the subject of another post. Once I get the Paris'ers straightened out, we'll be talkin' S & D in this space for sure! :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Cleveland Orchestra / Szell (1963) - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 4th mvmt - Presto - Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Clever Hans on April 25, 2010, 08:23:02 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 25, 2010, 08:12:18 AM
Hans, our posts crossed. Thanks for these thoughts. Yes, you are onto the problem right there. In fact I am quite pleased with Kuijken's set. It was my first PI Paris set and I was happy with it until I screwed up and got some others. :)

I do have all 6 disks of Pinnock's S & D symphonies, as well as Brüggen's, Hogwood's, Weil's, Solomons', and a bunch of singles as well. One thing for sure, there is more competition in the S & D's among the PI crowd than there is among the London's with the modern instrument groups, and that's saying something! :o And it is fair to say that it is virtually impossible to choose among those too. That, however, is the subject of another post. Once I get the Paris'ers straightened out, we'll be talkin' S & D in this space for sure! :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Cleveland Orchestra / Szell (1963) - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 4th mvmt - Presto - Allegro

Ah. I'll stay tuned, but I will say right now that Pinnock's is the most consistent.

It's really impossible to decide for the Paris.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scarpia on April 25, 2010, 10:09:32 AM

Listening to Dorati's set, symphonies No. 30 and 31 ("Alleluia" and "Hornsignal"). I must say the Alleluia is mighty thin gruel. I didn't find much to catch my interest, and these early works that end with a stilted menuetto leave me cold.

The Hornsignal is another story however. The use of horns in the first movement is thrilling and they way the motif returns in the close of the symphony is quite forward looking. Also, the work is a sort of concerto for orchestra, featuring prominent solos for most of the major instruments of the orchestra.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 25, 2010, 02:31:41 PM

I'm still quite interested in the Dorati Box Set - I had this set on order from Barnes & Noble a number of months ago at a good price (can't remember) - the order was eventually canceled by them! At present, MDT is offering the box for $72 - seems like a great bargain for 30+ discs - is this set available at a cheaper price? Thanks all for your input - :D

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/4781221.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scarpia on April 25, 2010, 04:21:05 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on April 25, 2010, 02:31:41 PM
I'm still quite interested in the Dorati Box Set - I had this set on order from Barnes & Noble a number of months ago at a good price (can't remember) - the order was eventually canceled by them! At present, MDT is offering the box for $72 - seems like a great bargain for 30+ discs - is this set available at a cheaper price? Thanks all for your input - :D

This release was a limited edition, and I suspect it will vanish soon. If you want it I'd advise you not to dawdle.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: hornteacher on April 26, 2010, 03:47:30 AM

Just ordered it after hearing some clips that made my ears perk. Has anyone heard it?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on April 26, 2010, 05:35:03 AM

Hi Gurn,

Regarding your list of 5 PI sets for a complete list of Haydn symphonies.

I have not heard all of the sets you listed, but I do have Kuijken for both the Paris and London symphonies, and he is my preference for both of these sets.

I have both the Dorati and Fischer complete sets, plus Harnoncourt and Szell for the Londons and ASMF for the Paris.

I find Kuijken really excellent. Sprightly, but never rushed. Very transparent textures (I heard parts I was not aware of before), excellent sound quality, and some really exciting moments (eg the climax of the development of the Clock, 1st mvmt). In general I find Kuijken pretty close to Solomons in style. I love Solomons in the S&D series, and although he never recorded the later symphonies I reckon that Kuijken did a pretty good job on his behalf.

As usual, there are a few movements here and there that I prefer from other conductors (eg Szell and Harnoncourt), and I have never found my ideal last interpretation of the last mvmt of 103, but in general Kuijken is wonderful and I return time and again to his recordings.

BTW, there are now two new entrants to consider ..... Minkowski and Norrington. This could be interesting (and expensive ....)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 26, 2010, 06:05:35 AM

Quote from: alkan on April 26, 2010, 05:35:03 AM
BTW, there are now two new entrants to consider ..... Minkowski and Norrington. This could be interesting (and expensive ....)

Norrington - hmmm? Set shown below, now $40 on the Amazon USA Marketplace - no ratings there; assume that this is a 'newer' set? Any comments - always nice to have an additional set of the London Symphonies - :D

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51cmcAIMJtL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 26, 2010, 06:50:14 AM

Quote from: SonicMan on April 25, 2010, 02:31:41 PM
I'm still quite interested in the Dorati Box Set - I had this set on order from Barnes & Noble a number of months ago at a good price (can't remember) - the order was eventually canceled by them! At present, MDT is offering the box for $72 - seems like a great bargain for 30+ discs - is this set available at a cheaper price? Thanks all for your input - :D

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/4781221.jpg)

B&N sucks, they can't even be bothered to ship the right thing, take long to ship something that they had marked as available for immediate shipping, and their return policy is not friendly like amazon. :-\

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 26, 2010, 06:53:10 AM

Quote from: hornteacher on April 26, 2010, 03:47:30 AM
Just ordered it after hearing some clips that made my ears perk. Has anyone heard it?

Hi Hornteacher - don't own that set but just left a post in the Haydn Symphony Tread for comments, so you may want to look there also - was brought up by another poster - I did a 'quick search' for some reviews but found none - may look harder next time! Dave :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Franco on April 26, 2010, 07:31:52 AM

I've decided I need to get some PI Haydn - his symphonies are a huge part of my listening time, but all I've got are the Adam Fischer and Dorati sets. Sure, I've got a few singles from Beethoven and others - but no PI recordings, a situation I plan on rectifying immediately.

The 13-disc Bruggen set is not easy to find. Arkiv is reissuing them, but in oddly overlapped couplings.

I think I'll first buy the Weil box - there's a lot there and I've read good things about his group.

Too bad there's so much overlap in the major sets, i.e. London, Paris, S&D - can you actually assemble a complete Haydn with just the PI recordings?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 26, 2010, 07:41:32 AM

Quote from: Franco on April 26, 2010, 07:31:52 AM
I've decided I need to get some PI Haydn - his symphoinies are a huge part of my listening time, but all I've got are the Adam Fischer and Dorati sets. Sure I've got a few singles from Beethoven and others - but no PI recordings, a situation I plan on rectifying immediately.

The 13-disc Bruggen set is not easy to find. Arkiv is reissuing them, but in oddly overlapped couplings.

I think I'll first buy the Wein box - there's a lot there and I've read good things about his group.

Too bad there's so much overlap in the major sets, i.e. London, Paris, S&D - can you actually assemble a complete Haydn with just the PI recordings?

Record companies have a passion for "named" things, discrete groupings, something to hang their sales hat on. As though they were actually going to try and sell this stuff... ::)

Anyway, I'm assuming you mean Weil as opposed to Wein, correct? In that case, I can very strongly recommend the 7 disk box that I recently bought on the Marketplace for $20. It is a bargain of bargains, and gives you some very nice performances of some early and later symphonies. No Londons, but there are plenty of others there.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Franco on April 26, 2010, 07:48:49 AM

Yep - thanks - Weil. Harnoncourt must have been in the back of my mind.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 26, 2010, 07:52:00 AM

Quote from: Franco on April 26, 2010, 07:48:49 AM
Yep - thanks - Weil. Harnoncourt must have been in the back of my mind.

:D

Would like to hear this group (The Londons) done by Harnoncourt with his real orchestra (Concentus Musicus). So it goes. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 26, 2010, 07:54:10 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 26, 2010, 07:52:00 AM
:D

Would like to hear this group (The Londons) done by Harnoncourt with his real orchestra (Concentus Musicus). So it goes. :)

8)

I'm so bored of the Londons, I'd rather him just record more not so famous gems. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 26, 2010, 08:10:40 AM

Quote from: DavidW on April 26, 2010, 07:54:10 AM
I'm so bored of the Londons, I'd rather him just record more not so famous gems. :)

Like what? Not that he has done so far. I have that 1 disk that has 30, 53 & 69, and that's about it for off the path stuff. Although I must say, that's a pretty fine disk anyway. I wish they would ALL record more out of the way stuff. Actually, I was trying to say earlier that I don't like the Concertgebouw in those works, even with Harnoncourt leading. I wasn't wanting to say it aloud, but now you've made me. >:(

:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 26, 2010, 08:15:17 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 26, 2010, 08:10:40 AM
Like what? Not that he has done so far. I have that 1 disk that has 30, 53 & 69, and that's about it for off the path stuff. Although I must say, that's a pretty fine disk anyway. I wish they would ALL record more out of the way stuff. Actually, I was trying to say earlier that I don't like the Concertgebouw in those works, even with Harnoncourt leading. I wasn't wanting to say it aloud, but now you've made me. >:(

:)

8)

I don't like RCO in Haydn either, was just hearing him lead his HIP orchestra in Bach cantatas this morning, fantastic! :) Probably any of the symphonies mentioned in that thread I created would be great material for him, I myself would like to do the symphonies in the 70s. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 26, 2010, 08:22:35 AM

Quote from: DavidW on April 26, 2010, 08:15:17 AM
I don't like RCO in Haydn either, was just hearing him lead his HIP orchestra in Bach cantatas this morning, fantastic! :) Probably any of the symphonies mentioned in that thread I created would be great material for him, I myself would like to do the symphonies in the 70s. :)

That's a great bunch of works, sadly ignored. Take out #72 (which is from 1763 and has a great horn part in the first movement) and go up to #81 (which has never been recorded on PI, and that's a great series to play with. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: hornteacher on April 26, 2010, 06:34:03 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on April 26, 2010, 06:53:10 AM
Hi Hornteacher - don't own that set but just left a post in the Haydn Symphony Tread for comments, so you may want to look there also - was brought up by another poster - I did a 'quick search' for some reviews but found none - may look harder next time! Dave :D

Just came in the mail today, (ArkivMusic is fast). I'll give it a listen tomorrow and report back.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 26, 2010, 07:51:37 PM

Quote from: alkan on April 26, 2010, 05:35:03 AM
Hi Gurn,

Regarding your list of 5 PI sets for a complete list of Haydn symphonies.

I have not heard all of the sets you listed, but I do have Kuijken for both the Paris and London symphonies, and he is my preference for both of these sets.

I have both the Dorati and Fischer complete sets, plus Harnoncourt and Szell for the Londons and ASMF for the Paris.

I find Kuijken really excellent. Sprightly, but never rushed. Very transparent textures (I heard parts I was not aware of before), excellent sound quality, and some really exciting moments (eg the climax of the development of the Clock, 1st mvmt). In general I find Kuijken pretty close to Solomons in style. I love Solomons in the S&D series, and although he never recorded the later symphonies I reckon that Kuijken did a pretty good job on his behalf.

As usual, there are a few movements here and there that I prefer from other conductors (eg Szell and Harnoncourt), and I have never found my ideal last interpretation of the last mvmt of 103, but in general Kuijken is wonderful and I return time and again to his recordings.

BTW, there are now two new entrants to consider ..... Minkowski and Norrington. This could be interesting (and expensive ....)

I agree in almost all your points, Alkan.

Kuijken is my favorite director in almost every symphony recorded by him, although I don't still have all his "London".

IMO, he represents the happy medium, a sort of perfect synthesis between the respect for the classical forms and some vivid, vital performances, but controlling the "speed demon".

I have also noticed similarities between Kuijken and Solomons, although I just have got one volume (2 CDs) of his excellent recordings (symphonies 35, 38, 39, 49, 58, 59).

Finally, on the basis of my own experience in other repertories, I believe that Kuijken fans are not easily Minkovski fans... I'm just saying. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on April 27, 2010, 01:24:41 AM

It's a pity that you don't have more of the Solomons set. Symphonies 44 (Trauer) and 45 (Les Adieux) are absolutely terrific, especially the first movement of 45 where the dissonances on the horns and trumpets cut through the texture in quite a startling manner. This is where HIP and PI performances really score. Solomons does not rush things, which actually heightens the tension because the extra clarity allows the orchestral effects to make an impact.

I can't think of a weak link in the Kuijken London series. All of the symphonies are beautifully performed. Previous to hearing Kuijken, my favourite was Harnoncourt, and this is an excellent set. I became quite familiar with these recordings, so it was a very pleasant surprise to hear Kuijken for the first time. It was as if a kind of matt veneer had been stripped away. Everything was clearer, more vital, more transparent and very natural. As we know, Harnoncourt can sometimes overdo things (his almighty Drumroll solo at the start of number 103 seems to be so artificial) .... Kuijken never does, but generates just as much excitement and humour when the music calls for it.

Same thing holds for Kuijken's Paris symphonies, but my favourites in this box set are number 92 "Oxford", which contains a blazing finale, plus of course the absolute masterpiece of No 88 where the canon in the development section of the finale is clear, precise and hair-raising .... just as it should be!

Finally, a golden oldie. I listened recently to symphony No 90 by Antal Dorati. This performance has never been surpassed IMHO. It is powerful, noble, witty, and well recorded ..... not even Kuijken does better.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 27, 2010, 04:30:47 AM

Quote from: alkan on April 26, 2010, 05:35:03 AM
Hi Gurn,

Regarding your list of 5 PI sets for a complete list of Haydn symphonies.

I have not heard all of the sets you listed, but I do have Kuijken for both the Paris and London symphonies, and he is my preference for both of these sets.

I have both the Dorati and Fischer complete sets, plus Harnoncourt and Szell for the Londons and ASMF for the Paris.

I find Kuijken really excellent. Sprightly, but never rushed. Very transparent textures (I heard parts I was not aware of before), excellent sound quality, and some really exciting moments (eg the climax of the development of the Clock, 1st mvmt). In general I find Kuijken pretty close to Solomons in style. I love Solomons in the S&D series, and although he never recorded the later symphonies I reckon that Kuijken did a pretty good job on his behalf.

As usual, there are a few movements here and there that I prefer from other conductors (eg Szell and Harnoncourt), and I have never found my ideal last interpretation of the last mvmt of 103, but in general Kuijken is wonderful and I return time and again to his recordings.

BTW, there are now two new entrants to consider ..... Minkowski and Norrington. This could be interesting (and expensive ....)

Alkan,
Wow, a lot of posts, all at once. Anyway, thanks for your reply, I hadn't meant to ignore it, it just went to the next page before I had a good chance to think it over! :)

Well, sometimes it isn't always the conductor. For inexplicable reasons, I tend to prefer Kuijken's work with his own "Little Band" than with the OAE. I have them in 88-104 and they are on par with anyone there. I'm still working out the Paris situation though, been listening to the 5 sets yet again yesterday and now today. :-\

It would have certainly suited my purpose if Solomons had completed his cycle. I think his approach is marvelous, and would have enjoyed hearing them in some late symphonies, but so it goes. And there are any number of one-off's that I would have liked to hear more from, like Apollo Ensemble/Hsu. Their #12 is a reference quality effort, IMO.

Certainly there are also some modern instrument efforts out there that are worth listening to, so that just proves that there is an audience for almost anything. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on April 27, 2010, 06:29:03 AM

I'd be interested to hear your final choice between the 5 candidates. I only know Kuijken, and bits and pieces of the Harnoncourt set. But none of the others. I have the late masses by Weil and Tafelmusic, but you obviously hear less of the orchestra here.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Franco on April 27, 2010, 06:52:40 AM

Last night I downloaded from Amazon the Kuijken 82-87 and Pinnock S&D sets. I love what I heard from both. I definitely will get more of the Kuijken series, and also I'm planning on ordering the Weil set from Amazon Marketplace; I might even duplicate the 82-87 with Harnoncourt's recording - I love these PI Haydn symphonies!

But I also love the Dorati and Fischer - I was doing a little comparison between the PI and F & D with #82 and found Dorati the quickest tempo of all, and a nice lightness - I'd not noticed the reverberant sound of the Fischer before - but it's there, not that it's a vibe killer, just sayin'.

You could say I am a Haydn symphony buff.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: hornteacher on April 28, 2010, 07:01:23 PM

Well having just heard the Norrington cycle, I came away with some reservations. The sound quality is fantastic, and the tempi are very lively for the most part. They are live performances but one really doesn't notice until you hear the applause at the end. What kills the recording for me is the brass. They are so unbelievably loud and overbalanced that its not only out of character, its annoying. The forte hits are stung with such an edgy tone that it almost sounds like an amateur blasting. They also cover the strings quite a lot. Not sure why Norrington thought this was a good idea. In my opinion it screwed up what could have been a really nice cycle.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 29, 2010, 03:09:11 AM

Quote from: hornteacher on April 28, 2010, 07:01:23 PM
Well having just heard the Norrington cycle, I came away with some reservations. The sound quality is fantastic, and the tempi are very lively for the most part. They are live performances but one really doesn't notice until you hear the applause at the end. What kills the recording for me is the brass. They are so unbelievably loud and overbalanced that its not only out of character, its annoying. The forte hits are stung with such an edgy tone that it almost sounds like an amateur blasting. They also cover the strings quite a lot. Not sure why Norrington thought this was a good idea. In my opinion it screwed up what could have been a really nice cycle.

As a horn teacher I would have thought you'd love the brass prominence in Norrington's Haydn ;D Whether it's a matter of a different set of ears, different playback equipment or just different expectations, I don't agree with your conclusions. I don't find the brass overbalanced in the mix. Yes, they are prominent and very punchy, even vulgar at times, but I like that in Haydn. It's part of the music's character I expect and desire.

I agree the tempos are lively--just right most of the time. Slow movements move along at a nice flowing clip (perhaps too fast sometimes: the Clock's Andante is nowhere near a real Andante but it works for me) and the Minuets are taken slower than most of the Hipsters, more like the Old School conductors (Szell, Dorati). I really like that aspect of the performances. I like this box so much I'm thinking about investing in the Stuttgart Beethoven too.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Franco on April 29, 2010, 11:51:19 AM

Just ordered this today

Haydn: Complete Scottish & Welsh Folksong Arrangements (http://www.brilliantclassics.com/release.aspx?id=FM02095921#)

And was wondering if anyone had heard any of these.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 29, 2010, 12:16:52 PM

Quote from: Franco on April 29, 2010, 11:51:19 AM
Just ordered this today

Haydn: Complete Scottish & Welsh Folksong Arrangements (http://www.brilliantclassics.com/release.aspx?id=FM02095921#)

And was wondering if anyone had heard any of these.

I got 'em in the Big Box too. Some of the songs are familiar, most are not (Gaelic folk music not being my area) but in all cases the singing and playing is excellent. The players are the Haydn Trio Eisenstadt who have been praised pretty well around here, and the signers are very good, and Scots to boot, so their grasp of the linguistics is faultless. IOW, I like them. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: hornteacher on April 29, 2010, 04:27:05 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 29, 2010, 03:09:11 AM
I don't find the brass overbalanced in the mix. Yes, they are prominent and very punchy, even vulgar at times, but I like that in Haydn. It's part of the music's character I expect and desire.
Sarge

That's great if that recording gave you what you wanted. Nothing wrong with that. I guess having taught beginning band classes for 15 years I have a prejudice against "vulgar" brass. :D I do like the faster 2nd movements though.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 29, 2010, 04:46:47 PM

Quote from: hornteacher on April 29, 2010, 04:27:05 PM
That's great if that recording gave you what you wanted. Nothing wrong with that. I guess having taught beginning band classes for 15 years I have a prejudice against "vulgar" brass. :D I do like the faster 2nd movements though.

Hello Hornteacher & Sarge - I've been looking at this Norrington set, but now feeling some hesitation - the 'brass' overemphasis probably would not bother me much; the live applause is an issue - I just don't like applause when listening at home - thus, is the applause 'intrusive' & is it present at the end of each symphony? If so, I would feel hesitant; of course, just a personal attitude that often doesn't bother others and 'live' performances can be quite invigorating!

But again thanks for this input - will help me to decide on this set - saw Norrington live in Boston last year (performing Haydn) and really enjoyed the performances even w/ the applause! ;) ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 29, 2010, 04:57:06 PM

Just reading the May-June 2010 issue of Fanfare - a long (2+ page) review of the 'Complete Symphony' box w/ Dennis Russell Davies - mixed reviews on Amazon w/ 3+/5* average; this seems like a questionable choice for a comprehensive set - I've not heard these recordings, but may help others to make a choice if comments are provided by others who may have heard this conductor - :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZUa2BVnyL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scarpia on April 29, 2010, 05:00:42 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on April 29, 2010, 04:57:06 PM
Just reading the May-June 2010 issue of Fanfare - a long (2+ page) review of the 'Complete Symphony' box w/ Dennis Russell Davies - mixed reviews on Amazon w/ 3+/5* average; this seems like a questionable choice for a comprehensive set - I've not heard these recordings, but may help others to make a choice if comments are provided by others who may have heard this conductor - :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZUa2BVnyL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I was going to get this until I found out there is applause.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 29, 2010, 05:04:34 PM

Quote from: Scarpia on April 29, 2010, 05:00:42 PM
I was going to get this until I found out there is applause.

Scarpia - hold your horses! ;D I left two posts that appeared in sequence - the 'applause' was discussed on the Norrington set of the London Symphonies - a negative for me; the Davies complete set, I assume w/o applause but I'm not sure? Hope this clarifies my two posts - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scarpia on April 29, 2010, 05:07:01 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on April 29, 2010, 05:04:34 PM
Scarpia - hold your horses! ;D I left two posts that appeared in sequence - the 'applause' was discussed on the Norrington set of the London Symphonies - a negative for me; the Davies complete set, I assume w/o applause but I'm not sure? Hope this clarifies my two posts - Dave :)

The Davies set included audience applause. That's why I decided not to get it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 29, 2010, 06:26:28 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on April 29, 2010, 04:57:06 PM
Just reading the May-June 2010 issue of Fanfare - a long (2+ page) review of the 'Complete Symphony' box w/ Dennis Russell Davies - mixed reviews on Amazon w/ 3+/5* average; this seems like a questionable choice for a comprehensive set - I've not heard these recordings, but may help others to make a choice if comments are provided by others who may have heard this conductor - :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ZUa2BVnyL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Dave, I don't have any of that one, but the Haydn list that I'm on reviewed them pretty thoroughly and pretty much came up "too uneven to count on". Some of it is really good and, well.... :-\ I didn't need it at any rate; hell, I don't even need any more PI symphonies!! So I gave it a miss. Don't know if that helps you or just makes it more confusing. I'll just say that if I didn't have any at all, I would buy Fischer right now. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing: Quartetto Italiano - Bia 830-2 Op 130 Quartet #13 in Bb for Strings 6th mvmt - Große Fuge: Overtura: Allegro - Meno mosso e moderato - Allegro - Fuga: [Allegro] - Meno mosso e moderato - Allegro molto e con brio - Allegro (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/quartetto+italiano+-+bia+830-2+op+130+quartet+%2313+in+bb+for+strings+6th+mvmt+-+gro%c3%9fe+fuge%3a+overtura%3a+allegro+-+meno+mosso+e+moderato+-+allegro+-+fuga%3a++-+meno+mosso+e+moderato+-+allegro+molto+e+con+brio/track/allegro)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: hornteacher on April 29, 2010, 06:40:41 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on April 29, 2010, 04:46:47 PM
I just don't like applause when listening at home - thus, is the applause 'intrusive' & is it present at the end of each symphony?

There is applause at the end of each symphony, however to me its not intrusive. There is an appropriate silence after the last note before the applause starts, and it fades out fairly quickly. There are no coughs or hacks that I could hear during the music either. If the aggressive brass doesn't bother you then you'll probably enjoy the set.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on April 30, 2010, 01:46:57 AM

Just to let everyone know ....

There are several clips in YouTube of Norrington conducting the London symphonies, including the "slow" movement of the Clock. I can't recall whether it is with the same orchestra as that in the CD set. But if you are considering the Norrington set, it's well worth having a look on YouTube ..... just do a search for Haydn Norrington.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 30, 2010, 01:57:17 AM

Quote from: hornteacher on April 29, 2010, 06:40:41 PM
There is applause at the end of each symphony, however to me its not intrusive. There is an appropriate silence after the last note before the applause starts, and it fades out fairly quickly.

That's the way I hear it too. German audiences tend to be less demonstrative than American audiences at first, with the applause building slowly to a roar rather than starting that way. The applause is not so jarring in the Norrington set but yeah...it's included after each symphony. Since these are live performances, I just pretend I'm part of the audience. It's what I would hear if I were actually there. Doesn't bother me. Are the performances so good that I would recommend those who object to applause buy it anyway? No. There's ample choice in the London Symphonies. Look elsewhere.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 30, 2010, 02:01:52 AM

Quote from: alkan on April 30, 2010, 01:46:57 AM
Just to let everyone know ....

There are several clips in YouTube of Norrington conducting the London symphonies, including the "slow" movement of the Clock. I can't recall whether it is with the same orchestra as that in the CD set. But if you are considering the Norrington set, it's well worth having a look on YouTube ..... just do a search for Haydn Norrington.

Yep, that's the same performance of the Clock's Andante (same timing, same orchestra) that's in Norrington's London box. Here the link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X1gsh1AnBM&feature=PlayList&p=A8A5573DE9479659&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=1)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 30, 2010, 02:22:11 AM

Quote from: hornteacher on April 29, 2010, 04:27:05 PM
That's great if that recording gave you what you wanted. Nothing wrong with that. I guess having taught beginning band classes for 15 years I have a prejudice against "vulgar" brass.

I hear you...or rather, hear those beginners! My high school band actually had a decent brass section. It was the clarinet section that was intolerable. We had a band teacher/director who believed in letting anyone play who wanted to play--whether they had mastered the instrument or not. You wanted a uniform, you got a uniform and a seat. So, we had 120 members (total enrollment in my high school was only 400..the band was actually the dominant clique 8) ). Of that 120, about 40 were clarinets. Of those 40, only two could actually play with an ingratiating tone ;D God, did our band squawk! But we had fun :D

Quote:D I do like the faster 2nd movements though.

So do I...it's not the way I always want to hear them played but a very refreshing and stimulating alternative to more traditional tempos. The Clock's Andante is very dramatic. Love it.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: hornteacher on April 30, 2010, 04:09:45 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 30, 2010, 02:22:11 AM
Of that 120, about 40 were clarinets. Of those 40, only two could actually play with an ingratiating tone ;D God, did our band squawk!

I think you just described my version of the ninth circle of hell. :o

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 30, 2010, 04:33:10 AM

Quote from: hornteacher on April 30, 2010, 04:09:45 AM
I think you just described my version of the ninth circle of hell. :o

Sonically, it was hell...but almost everyone of those clarinet players were girls, so there was a glimpse of heaven too ;)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: hornteacher on April 30, 2010, 04:38:55 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 30, 2010, 04:33:10 AM
Sonically, it was hell...but almost everyone of those clarinet players were girls, so there was a glimpse of heaven too ;)

Sarge

I'm with you. I actually married a cute clarinet player. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gabriel on May 01, 2010, 01:47:04 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 29, 2010, 06:26:28 PM
Dave, I don't have any of that one, but the Haydn list that I'm on reviewed them pretty thoroughly and pretty much came up "too uneven to count on". Some of it is really good and, well.... :-\ I didn't need it at any rate; hell, I don't even need any more PI symphonies!! So I gave it a miss. Don't know if that helps you or just makes it more confusing. I'll just say that if I didn't have any at all, I would buy Fischer right now. :)

I bought the set, but as I left it in Chile, I haven't listened to all its CDs. Nonetheless, I sampled some symphonies belonging to different periods. The sound is clear, the performances are correct in general, but it lacks vitality. I sometimes thought that a kind of analytic examination of the score was taking place, instead of "playing music". My conclusion is that I wouldn't suggest the Dennis Russell Davies set to anyone approaching the symphonies for the first time, while for somebody who knows them and would like to explore them from another perspective it can be a legitimate choice.

In fact, anyone who knows that Thomas Fey's approach to the symphonies is my favourite will understand why the Dennis Russell Davies recordings are far from being my ideal Haydn! ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on May 22, 2010, 04:44:16 PM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41bUKBjHmtL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Another nice little 2CD set for $8 at Amazon USA, these are from early 1990s Norrington with London Classical Players, good but nothing to make you very excited either.....just more stuff for the collector

I can say the same for Norringtons late Mozart symphonies of the same period.....

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/417AC4DZPAL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 22, 2010, 04:50:02 PM

Quote from: DarkAngel on May 22, 2010, 04:44:16 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41bUKBjHmtL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Another nice little 2CD set for $8 at Amazon USA, these are from early 1990s Norrington with London Classical Players, good but nothing to make you very excited either.....just more stuff for the collector

I can say the same for Norringtons late Mozart symphonies of the same period.....

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/417AC4DZPAL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Interesting. Although your reaction to Norrington in general matches mine, I think. I might pick up the Haydn, probably not the Mozart. Curiosity and all that, you know? :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
State Orchestra Frankfurt / Athinäos - Czerny WoO Symphony #5 in Eb 2nd mvmt - Andante sostenuto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on May 22, 2010, 04:53:08 PM

Has Jacobs taken care of the Londons? Because that would be something to buy! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 22, 2010, 04:55:22 PM

Quote from: DavidW on May 22, 2010, 04:53:08 PM
Has Jacobs taken care of the Londons? Because that would be something to buy! :)

AFAIK, no. I agree, that would be interesting and worth pursuing. Jacobs is never boring. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
State Orchestra Frankfurt / Athinäos - Czerny WoO Symphony #5 in Eb 2nd mvmt - Andante sostenuto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on May 22, 2010, 04:57:47 PM

Quote from: DavidW on May 22, 2010, 04:53:08 PM
Has Jacobs taken care of the Londons? Because that would be something to buy! :)

Nothing I have seen............Rene Jacobs much more active in opera/vocal conducting with only a trickle of symphonic works.

We are waiting for his Mozart "magic flute" opera to complete his excellent recent Harmonia Mundi cycle

I will be a buyer of the Minkowski London set when it eventually shows up at Amazon USA........

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51UEMjtnlOL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 22, 2010, 05:04:31 PM

Quote from: DarkAngel on May 22, 2010, 04:57:47 PM

Nothing I have seen............Rene Jacobs much more active in opera/vocal conducting with only a trickle of symphonic works.

We are waiting for his Mozart "magic flute" opera to complete his excellent recent Harmonia Mundi cycle

I will be a buyer of the Minkowski London set when it eventually shows up at Amazon USA........

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51UEMjtnlOL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

He has this;

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61J3DRQJ1KL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

which I really like. Including the 'Scena a Berenice' and the Creation & Seasons. Not much else, although there IS some Freiburg Baroque Haydn that is good, without him.

Not to be naughty ( >:D ) , but I have Minkowski already, courtesy of a friend in Switzerland. It is very nice, you will be pleased with it. I really like his wind treatment in 100 & 103, and the timpani throughout. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
State Orchestra Frankfurt / Athinäos - Czerny WoO Symphony #5 in Eb 3rd mvmt - Scherzo

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on May 22, 2010, 05:06:44 PM

How does Minkowski compare with Kuijken (did I ask this before?)? :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on May 22, 2010, 05:07:58 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 22, 2010, 05:04:31 PM
He has this;

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61J3DRQJ1KL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

which I really like. Including the 'Scena a Berenice' and the Creation & Seasons. Not much else, although there IS some Freiburg Baroque Haydn that is good, without him.

Not to be naughty ( >:D ) , but I have Minkowski already, courtesy of a friend in Switzerland. It is very nice, you will be pleased with it. I really like his wind treatment in 100 & 103, and the timpani throughout. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
State Orchestra Frankfurt / Athinäos - Czerny WoO Symphony #5 in Eb 3rd mvmt - Scherzo

Minkowski will be mine........
The sound samples at JPC sound great, I have resisted just buying from JPC even though the drop in euro value makes it tempting for me in USA. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 22, 2010, 05:11:56 PM

Quote from: DarkAngel on May 22, 2010, 04:57:47 PM

Nothing I have seen............Rene Jacobs much more active in opera/vocal conducting with only a trickle of symphonic works.

We are waiting for his Mozart "magic flute" opera to complete his excellent recent Harmonia Mundi cycle

I will be a buyer of the Minkowski London set when it eventually shows up at Amazon USA........

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51UEMjtnlOL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

Guys - I'm looking for a PI London Symphonies - have Minkowski on my list - own Kuijken in the earlier symphonies but have not seen an available (or a good priced) offering of his in these latter works - Dave :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 22, 2010, 05:15:41 PM

Quote from: DavidW on May 22, 2010, 05:06:44 PM
How does Minkowski compare with Kuijken (did I ask this before?)? :)

Well, you know I am talentless when it comes to in-depth reviews, so I'll leave it to someone else. I will say that Minkowski's orchestra sounds larger (probably IS larger) and in the London's, unlike in the balance of the symphonic oeuvre, that is not such a bad thing. Given that in both cases the playing is excellent, I will say that Kuijken plays it straight (I admire that and enjoy it, since 'straight' Haydn is superior to most other composers anyway >:D ). Minkowski adds a variety of little things that are clearly part of his vision. And generally they work nicely, although now and then you're like "huh? WTF did they just do there?". :D The 2 sets complement each other very nicely. I am delighted to have them both. 0:)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Grzegorz Nowak - Czerny WoO Symphony #6 in g 1st mvmt - Andante maestoso - Allegro con brio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 22, 2010, 05:21:45 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on May 22, 2010, 05:11:56 PM
Guys - I'm looking for a PI London Symphonies - have Minkowski on my list - own Kuijken in the earlier symphonies but have not seen an available (or a good priced) offering of his in these latter works - Dave :D

Dave, there are 2 choices for the Kuijken; get the box set made in Japan (but sold at Amazon). The last I saw it was under $50, not bad for 4 disks (they squeezed 5 into 4). Or, do what I did and get the DHM disks 'used' in the Marketplace. This is more difficult but still do-able. Today I recommend the first choice because the price is right and you get them all. It is a long, arduous process to get all 5 disks in excellent condition, and I ended up paying about the same. 3 were less than $10 each, but the other 2 were close to $25 each, so I could have had the Japanese set. I wouldn't have been as smugly pleased with myself though, and what's THAT worth? ;D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Grzegorz Nowak - Czerny WoO Symphony #6 in g 1st mvmt - Andante maestoso - Allegro con brio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on May 22, 2010, 05:25:09 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on May 22, 2010, 05:11:56 PM
Guys - I'm looking for a PI London Symphonies - have Minkowski on my list - own Kuijken in the earlier symphonies but have not seen an available (or a good priced) offering of his in these latter works - Dave :D

The most desireable HIP/PI London sets would be Kuijken and Bruggen......both very expensive now to get

Bruno Weil is recording a London set now to complement his other Haydn symphonies
Minkowski will be available at Amazon USA June 29.......

This is Haydn holy grail Bruggen boxset if you can find it for good price...........(let me know!)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4157TMN34ZL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 22, 2010, 05:28:53 PM

Quote from: DarkAngel on May 22, 2010, 05:25:09 PM

The most desireable HIP/PI London sets would be Kuijken and Bruggen......both very expensive now to get

Bruno Weil is recording a London set now to complement his other Haydn symphonies
Minkowski will be available at Amazon USA June 29.......

Holy crap! That price has gone up since last November! :o

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51v%2B0QatwaL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I see it is $75, was $45. I know, $30 isn't a lot, but it's like a 67% increase (OK, I don't do math, you figure it out >:( ). Still, worth it though....

8)

----------------
Now playing: Grzegorz Nowak - Czerny WoO Symphony #6 in g 2nd mvmt - Andante un poco sostenuto (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/grzegorz+nowak+-+czerny+woo+symphony+%236+in+g+2nd+mvmt/track/andante+un+poco+sostenuto)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on May 22, 2010, 05:29:44 PM

Quote from: DarkAngel on May 22, 2010, 05:25:09 PM
Minkowski will be available at Amazon USA June 29.......

I don't know about sonic dave, but I can wait for that, it sounds like it's worth buying. But I'll have to track down some youtube samples (I like whole movements). :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 22, 2010, 05:30:42 PM

Quote from: DarkAngel on May 22, 2010, 05:25:09 PM

The most desireable HIP/PI London sets would be Kuijken and Bruggen......both very expensive now to get

Bruno Weil is recording a London set now to complement his other Haydn symphonies
Minkowski will be available at Amazon USA June 29.......

Gurn & DA - thanks for your prompt responses - I've seen the Kurijken offerings and did not like the pricing - no hurry for me, so might just wait a month or so to see what appears; the Minkowski is of interest when available - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on May 22, 2010, 05:33:52 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 22, 2010, 05:04:31 PM
He has this;

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61J3DRQJ1KL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

which I really like. Including the 'Scena a Berenice' and the Creation & Seasons. Not much else, although there IS some Freiburg Baroque Haydn that is good, without him.

Not to be naughty ( >:D ) , but I have Minkowski already, courtesy of a friend in Switzerland. It is very nice, you will be pleased with it. I really like his wind treatment in 100 & 103, and the timpani throughout. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
State Orchestra Frankfurt / Athinäos - Czerny WoO Symphony #5 in Eb 3rd mvmt - Scherzo

That Jacobs recording was re-issued (or at least repackaged) by HM as part of their Haydn celebration, with the Seasons and the first release of Jacob's Creation. The liner notes were newly written for 2009.
The Freiburgers appear on several of these issues/new issues, including cello concertos with Queyras, keyboard concertos with Staier, and two recordings of some of the earlier symphonies (and the Violin Concerto 1 on one of them)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 22, 2010, 05:39:46 PM

Quote from: kishnevi on May 22, 2010, 05:33:52 PM
That Jacobs recording was re-issued (or at least repackaged) by HM as part of their Haydn celebration, with the Seasons and the first release of Jacob's Creation. The liner notes were newly written for 2009.
The Freiburgers appear on several of these issues/new issues, including cello concertos with Queyras, keyboard concertos with Staier, and two recordings of some of the earlier symphonies (and the Violin Concerto 1 on one of them)

Yes, the re-issue is what I have. Along with the Staier, Queyras and Violin Concerto. Those are handled by Gottfried van der Goltz. All of them are worth having. I would like the 2 oratorios, I have just held off so far due to a surfeit of oratorio recordings right now. :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Grzegorz Nowak - Czerny WoO Symphony #6 in g 3rd mvmt - Scherzo - Trio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 22, 2010, 09:14:52 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 22, 2010, 05:39:46 PM
Yes, the re-issue is what I have. Along with the Staier, Queyras and Violin Concerto. Those are handled by Gottfried van der Goltz. All of them are worth having. I would like the 2 oratorios, I have just held off so far due to a surfeit of oratorio recordings right now. :D

I have all those recordings and, additionally, one disc with Le matin, le midi, le soir, IMHO the best Haydn recording of the Freiburg Baroque Orchestra on Harmonia Mundi.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on May 22, 2010, 10:33:13 PM

Quote from: DavidW on May 22, 2010, 05:29:44 PM
But I'll have to track down some youtube samples (I like whole movements). :)

Or the whole she-bang (albeit in a lossy format): http://www.radio4.nl/page/luisterpaal_player/448

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on May 23, 2010, 07:16:05 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on May 22, 2010, 10:33:13 PM
Or the whole she-bang (albeit in a lossy format): http://www.radio4.nl/page/luisterpaal_player/448

Nice! Thanks! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on May 23, 2010, 10:45:19 AM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51UEMjtnlOL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

Every time I see this photo of Minkowski I think of "Curly" from the Three Stooges......... :)
(waiting for Moe to slap him)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 23, 2010, 03:54:07 PM

Quote from: DarkAngel on May 23, 2010, 10:45:19 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51UEMjtnlOL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

Every time I see this photo of Minkowski I think of "Curly" from the Three Stooges......... :)

Nyuk Nyuk Nyuk!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on May 23, 2010, 07:06:02 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 22, 2010, 09:14:52 PM
I have all those recordings and, additionally, one disc with Le matin, le midi, le soir, IMHO the best Haydn recording of the Freiburg Baroque Orchestra on Harmonia Mundi.

That one is also one of the re-issues.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on May 24, 2010, 01:17:29 AM

New issue! :)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0028947822431.jpg)

samples at jpc (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/SESSIONID/5a7fd2d5f83b2643f62a90e3e2e3ab56/classic/detail/-/art/Joseph-Haydn-Cembalokonzert-D-dur-H18-Nr-11/hnum/4097759)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 24, 2010, 04:25:18 AM

Oh, very nice, Q. I'll have that one even if it doesn't otherwise cross the pond! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 24, 2010, 06:07:47 AM

Quote from: Que on May 24, 2010, 01:17:29 AM
New issue! :)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0028947822431.jpg)

samples at jpc (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/SESSIONID/5a7fd2d5f83b2643f62a90e3e2e3ab56/classic/detail/-/art/Joseph-Haydn-Cembalokonzert-D-dur-H18-Nr-11/hnum/4097759)

The "concept" looks similar to this one:

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ecDwC2raT4w/ShkOyPRDwPI/AAAAAAAACSc/L6-VrvbsL7g/s400/cd-haydn-ghielmi+copia.jpg)

Even both of them include the violin concerto Hob. VIIa:4 and the concerto for violin and organ (or harpsichord) Hob. XVIII:6. The obvious difference is that Lorenzo Ghielmi plays the organ, including for that reason another two concertos for organ (not the concerto for harpsichord Hob. XVIII:11 in Dantone's disc).

Thanks Q; it looks very enticing.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: cosmicj on May 26, 2010, 09:46:17 AM

I've only read the last three pages of this thread but being a Haydn quartet enthusiast, I'll make a few comments:

1) I am mixed about the Mosaiques Op. 20. I find they deliver some really lukewarm performances (such as op. 20 #1 or the lovely first two mvts of that great, unknown piece, Op. 20 #4) while being excellent in other places. They are very good technically, but in that other undiscovered masterpiece (Op. 20 #6) the first violinist uncharacteristically has intonation problems. I have compared it to the Lindsays doing Op. 20 and the English group is simply superior. The Mosaiques set's sonics may be the best quartet recording I have yet heard. Demo level.

2) The Festetics, have both Op. 33 and 64. Op. 33 is slightly better, but I like both. Rough hewn HIP, but very musical and vital. Sonics on the recordings are forward and a bit harsh. (Whine: why do they take the darned second Minuet sections repeats? I'm in favor of not taking any repeats anywhere in this music.)

3) A poster above asked about the Tatrai Op. 33. I'd describe it as an unmitigated disaster. Gave it away.

4) I think the Alban Berg Quartet doing Op. 76 and 77 are THE best Haydn quartet recordings I have ever heard. Tend to have an aggressive approach. Technically superb. Very good recording, although trebly.

5) Lindsay Opp. 76 4-6; Dave Hurwitz hated this recording and gave it a very negative review, which I think is grossly unfair. Generally it's a very good recording. Their version of Op. 76 #6:II (an Adagio) is great - spritual and inspired (better than the ABQ). They appear not to have thoroughly practiced the last two movements of the Op. 76 #6 quartet, though, which is unfortunate.

I have more to say but I'll stop there.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on May 26, 2010, 09:51:49 AM

Quote from: cosmicj on May 26, 2010, 09:46:17 AM
I've only read the last three pages of this thread but being a Haydn quartet enthusiast, I'll make a few comments:

1) I am mixed about the Mosaiques Op. 20. I find they deliver some really lukewarm performances (such as op. 20 #1 or the lovely first two mvts of that great, unknown piece, Op. 20 #4) while being excellent in other places. They are very good technically, but in that other undiscovered masterpiece (Op. 20 #6) the first violinist uncharacteristically has intonation problems. I have compared it to the Lindsays doing Op. 20 and the English group is simply superior. The Mosaiques set's sonics may be the best quartet recording I have yet heard. Demo level.

2) The Festetics, have both Op. 33 and 64. Op. 33 is slightly better, but I like both. Rough hewn HIP, but very musical and vital. Sonics on the recordings are forward and a bit harsh. (Whine: why do they take the darned second Minuet sections repeats? I'm in favor of not taking any repeats anywhere in this music.)

3) A poster above asked about the Tatrai Op. 33. I'd describe it as an unmitigated disaster. Gave it away.

4) I think the Alban Berg Quartet doing Op. 76 and 77 are THE best Haydn quartet recordings I have ever heard. Tend to have an aggressive approach. Technically superb. Very good recording, although trebly.

5) Lindsay Opp. 76 4-6; Dave Hurwitz hated this recording and gave it a very negative review, which I think is grossly unfair. Generally it's a very good recording. Their version of Op. 76 #6:II (an Adagio) is great - spritual and inspired (better than the ABQ). They appear not to have thoroughly practiced the last two movements of the Op. 76 #6 quartet, though, which is unfortunate.

I have more to say but I'll stop there.

Hi cosmicj,

Welcome to GMG, and thanks for your comments on Haydn SQs. What is your opinion on Kodaly's Naxos recordings?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: cosmicj on May 26, 2010, 12:08:27 PM

Thanks, Brahmsian. I have the op. 54 & 55 quartets done by the Kodaly. I haven't listened to them in a while but remember them as being OK but not better than that. Mediocre intonation. Reasonably spirited.

Does anybody know the Endellion Qt recording of Opp. 54 & 74? I'm thinking of getting it.

Brahmsian - I take it you are a big fan of that composer. Do you mean fielding a question about Brahms recordings?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: cosmicj on May 26, 2010, 12:25:43 PM

Newbie here. Some Haydn commentary:

1) I love Kuijken's recordings, with either of his orchestras. I find he has a sensuous approach that brings out the variety in Haydn's music. He let's it breathe.

2) Bruno Weil is the exact opposite. Based on his 88-90 CD, he almost tries to trivialize the music. Busy. busy. busy. I can't frankly take more than 4 or 5 tracks of this dreck at a time. Good technically.

3) Adam Fischer's set is for me distinguished by terrific, passionate performances and engineering that makes the band sound like it was recorded inside a big men's locker room. (Why not women's? Maybe - I don't have that much experience in that kind of locker room.) The Nimbus engineers responsible for the discs should have their union card revoked. Very unfortunate.

4) I really like a number of conductors doing these works, including Bruggen, Klemperer, Jane Goodman, Dorati (spirited).

5) Off-topic - I got Jacobs' version of The Creation for Christmas. Totally unimpressed. Excellent work by the soloists ruined by an abysmal, pedantic conducting approach. I expect many here will disagree.

6) My favorite little known symphony by Haydn is #80 in d minor. Original, with moments of grandeur. The lilting Trio is a favorite of mine. There is a downward cascade by the strings in the slow mvmt that is one of the most ravishing few seconds by FJH that I have ever heard.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on May 26, 2010, 12:28:28 PM

I haven't heard any kind of reverb in the Fischer recordings like what you're describing. ???

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scarpia on May 26, 2010, 12:40:45 PM

Quote from: DavidW on May 26, 2010, 12:28:28 PM
I haven't heard any kind of reverb in the Fischer recordings like what you're describing. ???

I certainly have. The recordings are typical of Nimbus, which uses their own recording technique which is supposed to result in exceedingly natural sounding recordings, but which often produces recordings which are extremely unfocused and reverberant. I had the Haydn set and got rid of it precisely because the distant sound stage was unsatisfying.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on May 26, 2010, 01:17:51 PM

Well did you find a replacement Scarpia? Dorati or Russell Davies?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scarpia on May 26, 2010, 01:23:22 PM

Quote from: DavidW on May 26, 2010, 01:17:51 PM
Well did you find a replacement Scarpia? Dorati or Russell Davies?

I have Dorati. I was interested in Davies until I heard that there is applause in the recordings.

At this point I am not sufficiently obsessed with Haydn to need more than one cycle, although I have quite a few individual recordings and sets of the London and Paris symphonies.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on May 26, 2010, 06:29:03 PM

Quote from: cosmicj on May 26, 2010, 12:08:27 PM
Thanks, Brahmsian. I have the op. 54 & 55 quartets done by the Kodaly. I haven't listened to them in a while but remember them as being OK but not better than that. Mediocre intonation. Reasonably spirited.

Does anybody know the Endellion Qt recording of Opp. 54 & 74? I'm thinking of getting it.

[Raises hand]
Unfortunately, it's been a while since I've listened to it, so I remember no details. The performance seemed fairly straightforward, on a par with the Kodaly Op. 76 which I bought immediately before the Endellion.

Mind you, when I listen to Haydn, I prefer his symphonies and choral works; so my preferences in the SQs should be taken advisedly. However, since the Endellion recording is available as a Virgin budget two-fer, you wouldn't be risking much by getting it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on May 26, 2010, 07:21:27 PM

Quote from: cosmicj on May 26, 2010, 09:46:17 AM
I've only read the last three pages of this thread but being a Haydn quartet enthusiast, I'll make a few comments:

1) I am mixed about the Mosaiques Op. 20. I find they deliver some really lukewarm performances (such as op. 20 #1 or the lovely first two mvts of that great, unknown piece, Op. 20 #4) while being excellent in other places. They are very good technically, but in that other undiscovered masterpiece (Op. 20 #6) the first violinist uncharacteristically has intonation problems. I have compared it to the Lindsays doing Op. 20 and the English group is simply superior. The Mosaiques set's sonics may be the best quartet recording I have yet heard. Demo level.

2) The Festetics, have both Op. 33 and 64. Op. 33 is slightly better, but I like both. Rough hewn HIP, but very musical and vital. Sonics on the recordings are forward and a bit harsh. (Whine: why do they take the darned second Minuet sections repeats? I'm in favor of not taking any repeats anywhere in this music.)

3) A poster above asked about the Tatrai Op. 33. I'd describe it as an unmitigated disaster. Gave it away.

4) I think the Alban Berg Quartet doing Op. 76 and 77 are THE best Haydn quartet recordings I have ever heard. Tend to have an aggressive approach. Technically superb. Very good recording, although trebly.

5) Lindsay Opp. 76 4-6; Dave Hurwitz hated this recording and gave it a very negative review, which I think is grossly unfair. Generally it's a very good recording. Their version of Op. 76 #6:II (an Adagio) is great - spritual and inspired (better than the ABQ). They appear not to have thoroughly practiced the last two movements of the Op. 76 #6 quartet, though, which is unfortunate.

I have more to say but I'll stop there.

ah,...fresh blood!

I'll disagree concerning the QM Op.20. I thought Nos. 1/4/6 were the best of that set. I believe I picked them tops in No.1. However, the Lindsays' Op.20 I think is in a class by itself: I think it's perfect (aaand,...he's the ONLY one,...EVER!!,... who hits that high note of the No.5 Moderato just so).

The Endellion are the best stopgap for 54/74. They can't really be beat for price, but I think they must be in direct comparison with the Auryn now, whose 54/74 sets have gotten the best reviews of their series (I have Op.76, and, I'd recommend it to you as an alternative to the ABQ (which I also have)). The only criticism I have is with 54/3, first mvmt (which is purely a personal decision), and, perhaps with the slow mvmt of the 'Rider' (in which both the ABQ and Amadeus find more moreness); also, the sound, though just fine, has a slight four-squareness to it (again, I'm being picky!). Otherwise, they have one of the best 54/1s out there, and 54/2 has everything you would want (though, I also hear the Ysaye are probably just as good, and probably with pristine sound).

Anyhow, the Thread's only 34 pages! C'mon!! Though, I warn you, from page 8 on, it's mostly my ranting!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on May 27, 2010, 02:28:45 AM

I am waiting for my copy of the QM Op 20/33 box to arrive. I have high expectations following their Op 76/77 recordings. I'll post when I've listened ....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on May 27, 2010, 02:43:20 AM

I have the Fischer set, but I only noticed a fuzzy recording in the London symphonies. These were the first to be recorded and after this the engineers got things under control. I'm not at all bothered about this because I have Kuijken and Harnoncort for the Londons and they are my references here. Fischer (and the sound quality) is excellent for the middle symphonies. My main niggle with Fischer is his habit of not playing what's in the score .... ie solo instruments instead of tutti (although I have to admit that it gives a new perspective and is normally done with taste). I have the luxury of having the Dorati set too, so I can pick and choose my performance style at will ;D. The absolute best Dorati performance is No 90 IMHO ..... no one else gets close.
Agree with Cosmic for No 80 ..... the finale is a real tour-de force.
Pity that Kuijken did not do a full set, but I am grateful for what he did (and I have them all).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on May 27, 2010, 04:14:25 AM

Quote from: DavidW on May 26, 2010, 12:28:28 PM
I haven't heard any kind of reverb in the Fischer recordings like what you're describing. ???

Same. Nimbus ruined their Goodman Beethoven cycle with a bizarre acoustic, but it is far more normal on the Fischer Haydn recordings.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: cosmicj on May 27, 2010, 04:48:37 AM

Snyprr - Thanks for the expert commentary. As my time and mental energy is valuable, I try to only buy really good recordings, so I may re-think the Endellion purchase.

re the Lindsay's, they seem to attract a lot of antagonism, which is puzzling to me as I think they take a traditional approach and are often very good. Glad you feel the same way as I do.

The last time I listened to the Mosaiques do Op. 20 #1, I really thought they were mailing it in. Hardly an inspired or commmitted performance.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: cosmicj on May 27, 2010, 04:50:14 AM

About the Auryn performances, I have been reading the raves AND they are recorded by a really dedicated audiophile engineer who is apparently using tube components for the recording, so I am really interested, but the price tag is just too high given that I have good performances of many of the works already.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on May 27, 2010, 05:40:14 AM

Quote from: cosmicj on May 27, 2010, 04:50:14 AM
About the Auryn performances, I have been reading the raves AND they are recorded by a really dedicated audiophile engineer who is apparently using tube components for the recording,

That sounds awful. The kind of harmonic distortion that tubes add are completely inappropriate for recording or playback in this day and age. :-\

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: cosmicj on May 27, 2010, 06:49:41 AM

Quote from: DavidW on May 27, 2010, 05:40:14 AM
That sounds awful. The kind of harmonic distortion that tubes add are completely inappropriate for recording or playback in this day and age. :-\

There would be a significant minority of audiophiles who would take strong issue with that statement. I have a mostly solid state system but have a tube digital-to-analog converter and it is a beautiful sounding component, with a lot of detail and accuracy.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on May 27, 2010, 06:56:26 AM

Quote from: cosmicj on May 27, 2010, 06:49:41 AM
There would be a significant minority of audiophiles who would take strong issue with that statement.

Yeah but these are the same people that spend $$$ on cables. Some of them are fools, and some of them are simply yearning for the days of analog. Either way their opinion is not to be respected.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scarpia on May 27, 2010, 08:15:37 AM

Quote from: cosmicj on May 27, 2010, 04:50:14 AM
About the Auryn performances, I have been reading the raves AND they are recorded by a really dedicated audiophile engineer who is apparently using tube components for the recording.

With a solid state amplifier the output is absolutely indistinguishable from the input. How boring! How can you claim your gadget is better than everyone else's when they are all the same? Now with a fine tube amplifier which produces obvious distortion you have a basis for claiming yours is the best! ::)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on May 27, 2010, 08:26:17 AM

Quote from: cosmicj on May 26, 2010, 09:46:17 AM
I have compared it to the Lindsays doing Op. 20 and the English group is simply superior.

Hi cosmic

There's a live Opus 20/4 from the Lindsays -- part of a series of 4 live CDs of Haydn recordings. They also have a worthy live Op 76/5 .

I like their dramatic style in Haydn (and in Beethoven) -- they're a bit earnest sometimes maybe.

Quote from: cosmicj on May 26, 2010, 09:46:17 AM

3) A poster above asked about the Tatrai Op. 33. I'd describe it as an unmitigated disaster. Gave it away.

Do you not like Tatrai at all -- or just the Op 33s (which I haven't heard)?

I have their Opus 20s, which I love. Playful and profound. It's the recording of the Op 20s I liesten to the most: I have 3 complete sets -- Tatrai, Hagen and Lindsay.

I'd quite like to know which are the really great Tatrai performances (I have their Op 50s too, but that's it.)

I'll mention here that I am enjoying this gloriously warm, recording of the Op 76s right now:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on May 27, 2010, 08:38:50 AM

Quote from: cosmicj on May 27, 2010, 04:48:37 AM
Snyprr - Thanks for the expert commentary. As my time and mental energy is valuable, I try to only buy really good recordings, so I may re-think the Endellion purchase.

re the Lindsay's, they seem to attract a lot of antagonism, which is puzzling to me as I think they take a traditional approach and are often very good. Glad you feel the same way as I do.

The last time I listened to the Mosaiques do Op. 20 #1, I really thought they were mailing it in. Hardly an inspired or commmitted performance.

1) I got the Endellions separately. You should be able to pick Op.54 for #1.50+Sh.

2) The main complaint against the Lindsays is their leader's intonation problems (as 'they' say,...probably due to his obvious over enthusiasm). The Amazon review for Op.54 makes this clear. I have Opp. 20/33/55 by them, and, except for one spot in 20/2, I find them flawless.

3) The Auryn's ridiculous pricing is certainly a drawback. However,....

Auryn Op.20 has now been released!!

[/b][/i][/color][/font]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: cosmicj on May 27, 2010, 09:23:04 AM

Quote from: Scarpia on May 27, 2010, 08:15:37 AM
With a solid state amplifier the output is absolutely indistinguishable from the input. How boring!

That's false. There are sonic differences introduced by solid state amplifiers. I don't know why you'd think otherwise. (BTW, I have a solid state amp. I don't for a moment think it doesn't distort the sound input. Unfortunately.)

David - Audiophiles may be excessively persnickety about their audio systems, but that doesn't mean that the observations are false, just overfocussed on one aspect of the sound experience. BTW, if you're using stock cables (not clear from your note), I would run, not walk, run and buy some speaker cables and interconnects. Reasonable budget ones from reputable lines will make a clear improvement on stock.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: cosmicj on May 27, 2010, 09:25:16 AM

Mandryka - My comment was about the Tatrai Op. 33 only.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on May 27, 2010, 10:06:09 AM

Quote from: DavidW on May 27, 2010, 05:40:14 AM
That sounds awful. The kind of harmonic distortion that tubes add are completely inappropriate for recording or playback in this day and age. :-\

Modern tube pre-amplifiers can be made to sound pretty much indistinguishable from solid state, unless you listen a few inches away from your tweeters.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scarpia on May 27, 2010, 10:55:21 AM

Quote from: cosmicj on May 27, 2010, 09:23:04 AM
That's false. There are sonic differences introduced by solid state amplifiers.

I didn't say there aren't "sonic differences." I said the electrical signal is identical.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: cosmicj on May 27, 2010, 11:41:33 AM

Scarpia - Well, the electrical signal is modified by the amp, too. I know your post was a joking one. Have a nice Memorial Day weekend.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on May 27, 2010, 01:44:59 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on May 27, 2010, 08:26:17 AM
Hi cosmic

There's a live Opus 20/4 from the Lindsays -- part of a series of 4 live CDs of Haydn recordings. They also have a worthy live Op 76/5 .

I like their dramatic style in Haydn (and in Beethoven) -- they're a bit earnest sometimes maybe.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51OqyMFa%2B8L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Quartets included are (in this order, 3 works to a CD):
76/2
50/1
20/2
64/5
42
76/5
20/5
33/4
71/2
20/4
50/4
76/3

Out of this mix, I can only make direct comparisons with the Kodaly Op. 76 (Lindsays win), Cuarteto Casals Op. 33 (Casals win), and four of the six quartets the Jerusalem Quartet have recorded on Harmonia Mundi--I'd say they come about even, but the audio seems better on the Jerusalem recordings.

ETA: Actually, if I work out the comparisons more fully, Cuarteto Casals is better than the Jerusalem Quartet 33/3, and the Jerusalem 76/3 and 76/5 are better than the Kodaly.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Tyson on May 27, 2010, 08:22:27 PM

Quote from: DavidW on May 27, 2010, 06:56:26 AM
Yeah but these are the same people that spend $$$ on cables. Some of them are fools, and some of them are simply yearning for the days of analog. Either way their opinion is not to be respected.

I would agree with you, if you were right.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Tyson on May 27, 2010, 08:28:42 PM

After listening to several of the sets, I would say that the early and middle symphonies are very well served by Hogwood and the AAM, while the Paris symphonies are well served by Harnoncourt, and the late symphonies are best served up by Bruggen. Fischer is pretty good in symphonies 20-80, but pretty poor in the very early and very late ones. Dorati is merely OK in just about all of the symphonies.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on May 28, 2010, 12:51:00 PM

Quote from: Tyson on May 27, 2010, 08:28:42 PM
After listening to several of the sets, I would say that the early and middle symphonies are very well served by Hogwood and the AAM, while the Paris symphonies are well served by Harnoncourt, and the late symphonies are best served up by Bruggen. Fischer is pretty good in symphonies 20-80, but pretty poor in the very early and very late ones. Dorati is merely OK in just about all of the symphonies.

I've finally gotten to put in the first of the disc of the Bruno Weill set--40-somethings symphonies. I was very pleased, actually.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on June 04, 2010, 02:01:53 PM

Quote from: cosmicj on May 26, 2010, 12:25:43 PM

1) I love Kuijken's recordings, with either of his orchestras. I find he has a sensuous approach that brings out the variety in Haydn's music. He let's it breathe.

Yes, sensuous is the word. And he's very well recorded.

But sometimes I think he's too tame. I just listened to 88 with Kuijken and with Scherchen. Scherchen is much more successful at bringing out the maverick genius side of the music.

Scherchen's a bit of a troublemaker though. You're in much safer hands with Kuijken .

Quote from: cosmicj on May 26, 2010, 12:25:43 PM

4) I really like a number of conductors doing these works, including . . . Klemperer . . .

Really? For me most of them seemed totally turgid (I enjoyed one of them -- 102 maybe. I'll check.)

Quote from: cosmicj on May 26, 2010, 12:25:43 PM
4) . . . Dorati (spirited).

I am very tempted by the Dorati recording with the Festival Chamber Orchestra here:

http://www.rediscovery.us/conductors.html

Has anyone heard it?

Quote from: cosmicj on May 26, 2010, 12:25:43 PM

5) Off-topic - I got Jacobs' version of The Creation for Christmas. Totally unimpressed. Excellent work by the soloists ruined by an abysmal, pedantic conducting approach. I expect many here will disagree.

I don't know it -- but Jacobs playing Symphony 91 is one of my favourite CDs. He's great at buffo

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on June 05, 2010, 03:52:55 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on June 04, 2010, 02:01:53 PM
Yes, sensuous is the word. And he's very well recorded.

Sensuous? I was just thinking that is the opposite of how I would describe him. Stark and cold are more like it. Amazing that we hear such different things (keeping oin mind I only have 82-88 or so).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: starrynight on June 05, 2010, 06:36:07 AM

I think Fischer is overpraised. It's not that he is bad, but I don't think I discovered any more Haydn symphonies that I liked under Fischer than I had already discovered under Dorati (and he was the pioneer from much earlier).

However with others such as Bruggen, Harnoncourt, Frey, Pinnock, Hogwood and Weil for example I have discovered several others that I have liked.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 05, 2010, 07:20:01 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on June 04, 2010, 02:01:53 PM
Really? For me most of them seemed totally turgid (I enjoyed one of them -- 102 maybe. I'll check.)

I'm wth cosmicj...I love Klemperer's Haydn (and Mozart). His ability to bring out inner detail and his emphasis on rhythm, even when the tempo is slow, prevents his Haydn from sounding turgid to my ears. Szell, Klemp, Norrington remain my favorites in the late symphonies. The HIPsters have not knocked out my top three yet although I am enjoying the new Minkowski box of Londons. In the middle and early symphonies I have a greater appreciation, even a preference for Goodman, Solomons, Pinnock, Brüggen, Weil, Hogwood...

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scarpia on June 05, 2010, 07:42:37 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 05, 2010, 07:20:01 AM
I'm wth cosmicj...I love Klemperer's Haydn (and Mozart). His ability to bring out inner detail and his emphasis on rhythm, even when the tempo is slow, prevents his Haydn from sounding turgid to my ears. Szell, Klemp, Norrington remain my favorites in the late symphonies. The HIPsters have not knocked out my top three yet although I am enjoying the new Minkowski box of Londons. In the middle and early symphonies I have a greater appreciation, even a preference for Goodman, Solomons, Pinnock, Brüggen, Weil, Hogwood...

Sarge

Heard Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 05, 2010, 07:52:38 AM

Quote from: Scarpia on June 05, 2010, 07:42:37 AM
Heard Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw?

Only 68 and 100. But I have some recordings with the Concentus Musicus Wien and really love them. I should have included him in the list in my previous post. Here's what I have (copy and pasted from my data base):

HAYDN   ARMIDA   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   HARMONIEMESSE   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   MISSA IN ANGUSTIIS "NELSONMESSE"   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   MISSA IN TEMPORE BELLI "PAUKENMESSE"   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   TE DEUM HOB XXIIIC:2   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   TE DEUM HOB.XXIIIC:1   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   CANTATA "QAUL DUBBIO ORMAI"   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   SALVE REGINA   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #6 D MAJOR "LE MATIN"   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #7 C MAJOR "LE MIDI"   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #8 G MAJOR "LA SOIR"   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #30 C MAJOR "ALLELUJA"   HARNONCOURT   CON MUS WIEN
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #53 D MAJOR "L'IMPÉRIALE"   HARNONCOURT   CON MUS WIEN
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #68 B MAJOR   HARNONCOURT   CONCERTGEBOUW
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #69 C MAJOR "LOUDON"   HARNONCOURT   CON MUS WIEN
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #82 C MAJOR "L'OURS" (BEAR)   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #83 G MINOR "LA POULE" (HEN)   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #84 E FLAT   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #85 B FLAT "LA REINE DE FRANCE"   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #86 D MAJOR   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #87 A MAJOR   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #100 G MAJOR "MILITARY"   HARNONCOURT   CONCERTGEBOUW

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scarpia on June 05, 2010, 07:57:41 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 05, 2010, 07:52:38 AM
Only 68 and 100. But I have some recordings with the Concentus Musicus Wien and really love them. I should have included him in the list in my previous post. Here's what I have (copy and pasted from my data base):

HAYDN   ARMIDA   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   HARMONIEMESSE   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   MISSA IN ANGUSTIIS "NELSONMESSE"   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   MISSA IN TEMPORE BELLI "PAUKENMESSE"   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   TE DEUM HOB XXIIIC:2   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   TE DEUM HOB.XXIIIC:1   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   CANTATA "QAUL DUBBIO ORMAI"   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   SALVE REGINA   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #6 D MAJOR "LE MATIN"   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #7 C MAJOR "LE MIDI"   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #8 G MAJOR "LA SOIR"   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #30 C MAJOR "ALLELUJA"   HARNONCOURT   CON MUS WIEN
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #53 D MAJOR "L'IMPÉRIALE"   HARNONCOURT   CON MUS WIEN
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #68 B MAJOR   HARNONCOURT   CONCERTGEBOUW
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #69 C MAJOR "LOUDON"   HARNONCOURT   CON MUS WIEN
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #82 C MAJOR "L'OURS" (BEAR)   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #83 G MINOR "LA POULE" (HEN)   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #84 E FLAT   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #85 B FLAT "LA REINE DE FRANCE"   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #86 D MAJOR   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #87 A MAJOR   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #100 G MAJOR "MILITARY"   HARNONCOURT   CONCERTGEBOUW

Sarge

It beckons:

(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/2564696122.jpg)

http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product//2564696122.htm

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on June 05, 2010, 08:00:13 AM

Quote from: ukrneal on June 05, 2010, 03:52:55 AM
Sensuous? I was just thinking that is the opposite of how I would describe him. Stark and cold are more like it. Amazing that we hear such different things (keeping oin mind I only have 82-88 or so).

Right -- I was thinking of 88 to 90something.

Sensuous because of the sound quality -- and the clarity. But I don't hear cold. But not warm neither (either?)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on June 05, 2010, 08:05:55 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 05, 2010, 07:20:01 AM
I'm wth cosmicj...I love Klemperer's Haydn (and Mozart). His ability to bring out inner detail and his emphasis on rhythm, even when the tempo is slow, prevents his Haydn from sounding turgid to my ears. Szell, Klemp, Norrington remain my favorites in the late symphonies. The HIPsters have not knocked out my top three yet although I am enjoying the new Minkowski box of Londons. In the middle and early symphonies I have a greater appreciation, even a preference for Goodman, Solomons, Pinnock, Brüggen, Weil, Hogwood...

Sarge

I like Klemperer's Mozart, quite. ANd I like Brueggen and Solomons too.

There is a sort of semi-hip -- between the extremes of Beecham (whom I really don't like at all) and Norrington (who may well grow on me) -- which I am most interested in. Names like Goberman, Haas, Solomons, Blum, Woldike, Busch, Van Beinem, Rosbaud, Jones, Scherchen, Otterloo.

Tell me, Sarge. have you hear Norrington's new set of Londons?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 05, 2010, 08:15:51 AM

Quote from: Scarpia on June 05, 2010, 07:57:41 AM
It beckons:
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/2564696122.jpg)

Tempting, very tempting. But can I justify a third box of Londons within the space of a couple of months? Only if Mrs. Rock doesn't find out ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 05, 2010, 08:20:44 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on June 05, 2010, 08:05:55 AM
Tell me, Sarge. have you hear Norrington's new set of Londons?

Yes, I bought the box. I've talked about it in the Listening thread and in this thread too. I think this link will take you to where my conversation started with Horn Teacher:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11942.msg410075.html#msg410075

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scarpia on June 05, 2010, 08:20:55 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 05, 2010, 08:15:51 AM

Tempting, very tempting. But can I justify a third box of Londons within the space of a couple of months? Only if Mrs. Rock doesn't find out ;D

Sarge

I hope those other two boxes are similar in size, because you'll be using them to prop up your CD shelves when you have the Harnoncourt set. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on June 05, 2010, 02:05:57 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 05, 2010, 08:20:44 AM
Yes, I bought the box. I've talked about it in the Listening thread and in this thread too. I think this link will take you to where my conversation started with Horn Teacher:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11942.msg410075.html#msg410075

Sarge

Thanks. Re Harnoncourt there is a very good Oxford Symphony on DVD here:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cecilia-Bartoli-Nikolaus-Harnoncourt-Haydn/dp/B00008JL72/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1275775475&sr=1-1

It is maybe my favourite Haydn/Harnoncourt symphony. And maybe my favourite Oxford full stop.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scarpia on June 05, 2010, 06:40:07 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on June 05, 2010, 02:05:57 PM
Thanks. Re Harnoncourt there is a very good Oxford Symphony on DVD here:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Cecilia-Bartoli-Nikolaus-Harnoncourt-Haydn/dp/B00008JL72/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1275775475&sr=1-1

It is maybe my favourite Haydn/Harnoncourt symphony. And maybe my favourite Oxford full stop.

And Bartoli is awesome in the concert arias, but maybe I am remembering a similar DVD with Mozart Sym. 38 instead of Haydn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on June 06, 2010, 04:18:43 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 05, 2010, 08:15:51 AM

Tempting, very tempting. But can I justify a third box of Londons within the space of a couple of months? Only if Mrs. Rock doesn't find out ;D

Sarge

Very dull imo. He is on autopilot the whole time.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: not edward on June 06, 2010, 07:54:10 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on June 04, 2010, 02:01:53 PM
Scherchen's a bit of a troublemaker though.

That's why it took Scherchen to get me to finally click with the Haydn symphonies.

To my mind, Haydn himself was quite the musical troublemaker himself, and I've heard too many performances over the years that understate that aspect of his music.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on June 06, 2010, 07:59:06 AM

Quote from: edward on June 06, 2010, 07:54:10 AM

To my mind, Haydn himself was quite the musical troublemaker himself, and I've heard too many performances over the years that understate that aspect of his music.

Quoted because it's true.

Very few other conductors capture this -- Rosbaud, Van Beinem and Munch to some extent, maybe.

And even Scherchen sometimes understates this side of the music. In 104, for example.

By the way, if you enjoy that side of Haydn, try to hear Deszo Ranki playing the piano sonatas (you may know them already of course . . )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 05, 2010, 04:28:10 PM

Quoted below is a post I left in the 'listening thread' that is already buried, as usual; so, just wanted to put this recent (i.e. 2008) recording of the London Symphonies w/ Shelley on the Hyperion label - offered at a bargain price! Just finished listening to this set and was impressed - kind of a 'hybrid' approach that works well in modern sonics that will be enjoyed by many - although I own a number of interpretations of these compositions, this set might be one to recommend to a 'novice' wanting an introduction to Papa Haydn - I would be curious on thoughts from others that may have heard these discs? Dave :D

QuoteWell, I did not need another 'modern' version of these works, BUT the bargain BRO set below at $20 for 4 discs was hearkening to me, so what the hey - ;D

Haydn, Joseph - London Symphonies w/ Howard Shelley & the Orch della Svizzera Italiana from 2008 - superb sound recording by Hyperion; these are w/ modern instruments but apparently 'period' practices, i.e. smaller group (esp. in the winds), faster tempos, some but less string vibrato, hard sticks on the tympani, etc. I still need a good 'period instrument' performance, but this is an enjoyable set! For those wanting more detail, check out the MusicWeb Review HERE (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/Mar09/Haydn_London_cds44371.htm)! :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnLondonShelley/923715855_qKvnf-O.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on July 10, 2010, 05:29:01 AM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41bT%2BZHLe6L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

This just recently arrived, 4 CD set in cardboard clamshell with nice booklet. Live performances with no trace of crowd noise intrusion.

These are very very good but not quite amazing or revolutionary, I was expecting a more individual flambouyant performance from Minkowski......instead we get very good HIP hybrid style with fleet lifted clarified textures with great sound, yet something is missing to keep it from being a reference performance for these works, although it is close to the best. I already have large number of sets and will gladly add this to my collection

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on July 10, 2010, 06:04:30 AM

HIP hybrid?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on July 10, 2010, 06:05:56 AM

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/64/0a/a47a828fd7a0476123dc3110.L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Last couple weeks I have revisited my Dorati complete Haydn symphony set, these are the very original releases in 4CD blue plastic chubby jewel cases........I originally bought these 20 years ago.

Amazing how good they sound even before any of the HIP movement Dorati had gotten to the heart of these works, 1970s analog sound is as good as any modern recording, one of the best purchases I have ever made in classical music, a true classic.

Only regret is that cheap cardboard boxset today costs only a fraction of what I paid 20 years ago ???

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on July 10, 2010, 06:12:10 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on July 10, 2010, 06:04:30 AM
HIP hybrid?

Reflects Minkowski's current approach to using elements of historical informed performance in his current music style......typical stuff: smaller orchestra, fleet lifted tempos, clarified textures. Hybrid because it is an evolving journey that will change over time with experience and exposure to different groups etc. Each conductor takes elements they like and mix it with thier previous style to come up with ever evolving new sounds

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on July 10, 2010, 06:23:27 AM

Quote from: DarkAngel on July 10, 2010, 06:12:10 AM

Reflects Minkowski's current approach to using elements of historical informed performance in his current music style......typical stuff: smaller orchestra, fleet lifted tempos, clarified textures. Hybrid because it is an evolving journey that will change over time with experience and exposure to different groups etc. Each conductor takes elements they like and mix it with thier previous style to come up with ever evolving new sounds

I think his question was: What makes this less than HIP, seeing how it is an original instrument group...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on July 10, 2010, 06:35:07 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on July 10, 2010, 06:23:27 AM
I think his question was: What makes this less than HIP, seeing how it is an original instrument group...

Quite. HIP, though it attempts to recreate the music of a period, will always be an interpretation of the person(s) in charge and of course will change as and when they acquire new knowledge and new inspiration (for good or bad).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 10, 2010, 06:42:53 AM

The term "HIP hybrid" ( ::) ) is already taken and it means quite something else (playing with HIP elements but on modern instruments, ala Zurich Tonhalle Orchestra). As Jens points out, they already use P.I., which is 180° out from the hybridistas.

What you are talking about, IMO, is simply an indication that this performance cult isn't standing still, but moving forward with new ideas. I have had the Minkowski for a couple of months now and am very pleased with it. Unfortunately, it is my first disk(s) by them and I don't know how they have evolved stylistically. I certainly hope they have, since static in performance and concept is the death of a performance group. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DarkAngel on July 10, 2010, 12:23:50 PM

Quote from: DarkAngel on July 10, 2010, 05:29:01 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41bT%2BZHLe6L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

This just recently arrived, 4 CD set in cardboard clamshell with nice booklet. Live performances with no trace of crowd noise intrusion.

I maybe imagining things........
but CDs 3,4 symphonies 99-104 seem more energized and vibrant compared to 1,2 from same set.
Booklet gives no exact recording date for each symphony (June 2009) so I don't know over what time span complete set was recorded........but Minkowski seems to have eaten his wheaties cereal before recording later symphonies pushing them closer to what I would consider a reference recording

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 10, 2010, 02:28:21 PM

Quote from: DarkAngel on July 10, 2010, 12:23:50 PM

I maybe imagining things........
but CDs 3,4 seem more energized and vibrant compared to 1,2 from same set.
Booklet gives no exact recording date for each symphony (June 2009) so I don't know over what time span complete set was recorded........but Minkowski seems to have eaten his wheaties cereal before recording later symphonies pushing them closer to what I would consider a reference recording

Well, I don't know if I could divide them up by early and late like that, but I thought 100 & 102 were outstanding. They both ended up getting a lot of extra play on my MP3 player while the rest didn't make the trip over... :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Ronald Brautigam - Op 081a Sonata #26 in Eb for Fortepiano 1st mvmt - Das Lebewohl: Adagio - Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Peregrine on July 31, 2010, 02:10:55 AM

(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3866.0;attach=25416;image)

Been meaning to try the above recording for a while, but happy with my Op.76's at the moment and feel no pressing need. Have the Panocha, Tatrai and Budapest for complete sets and a few other odds and sods.

Recent Haydn SQ listening has been Caspar Da Solo SQ in Op.64 (real bargain this set, cheap as the proverbial chips and beautifully played), Amati SQ in Op.50 and Fine Arts SQ in Op.74, as well as the Pro Arte recordings on Testament.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 31, 2010, 06:07:27 AM

Quote from: Peregrine on July 31, 2010, 02:10:55 AM
(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3866.0;attach=25416;image)

Been meaning to try the above recording for a while, but happy with my Op.76's at the moment and feel no pressing need. Have the Panocha, Tatrai and Budapest for complete sets and a few other odds and sods.

Recent Haydn SQ listening has been Caspar Da Solo SQ in Op.64 (real bargain this set, cheap as the proverbial chips and beautifully played), Amati SQ in Op.50 and Fine Arts SQ in Op.74, as well as the Pro Arte recordings on Testament.

Peregrine,
I know you're happy, but if you have the chance to acquire that disk and its companion, don't pass them by, since they are rarely available. Not that MY experience should color your listening adventures, but back in the mid-1990's, I was roaming through an actual music shop and talking with the proprietor and he had those 2 disks on display. He asked me if I had them yet and I sheepishly admitted that I didn't have, nor had I ever heard, a single Haydn quartet! :o He virtually made me buy them and I have never looked back, chamber music became my favorite listening and Haydn my favorite composer. Well it had to start somewhere... but even since then, I haven't gotten (of 8-10 versions) a set that I like better (or even as much). Even discounting the 'blush of first love' effect, that's pretty good. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Peregrine on July 31, 2010, 06:37:55 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 31, 2010, 06:07:27 AM
Peregrine,
I know you're happy, but if you have the chance to acquire that disk and its companion, don't pass them by, since they are rarely available. Not that MY experience should color your listening adventures, but back in the mid-1990's, I was roaming through an actual music shop and talking with the proprietor and he had those 2 disks on display. He asked me if I had them yet and I sheepishly admitted that I didn't have, nor had I ever heard, a single Haydn quartet! :o He virtually made me buy them and I have never looked back, chamber music became my favorite listening and Haydn my favorite composer. Well it had to start somewhere... but even since then, I haven't gotten (of 8-10 versions) a set that I like better (or even as much). Even discounting the 'blush of first love' effect, that's pretty good. :D

8)

Gosh, what a glowing recommendation! I think I shall have to seek some relatively cheapish copies out - they are usually available from Japan quite easily IIRC. I actually have the Szymanowski/Webern dsic by the same quartet, but haven't listened to it yet, although am aware it's quite highly thought of.

Yes, roaming through an actual music store, now there's something I miss!

Cheers

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on July 31, 2010, 06:41:30 AM

Quote from: Peregrine on July 31, 2010, 06:37:55 AM
Yes, roaming through an actual music store, now there's something I miss!

Cheers

Indeed. Especially the great used ones. :-\

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 31, 2010, 06:56:41 AM

Quote from: Peregrine on July 31, 2010, 06:37:55 AM
Gosh, what a glowing recommendation! I think I shall have to seek some relatively cheapish copies out - they are usually available from Japan quite easily IIRC. I actually have the Szymanowski/Webern dsic by the same quartet, but haven't listened to it yet, although am aware it's quite highly thought of.

Yes, roaming through an actual music store, now there's something I miss!

Cheers

Somehow I was thinking from your first post that you had access to them somewhere (a good used store perhaps). I loaned mine to my father a couple years ago, and I thought I would let him keep them and I would pick up another set. Wrong. In fact when I go back to visit this year, I might slip a set by someone else (the Tokyo's would be a good choice) and rescue the Carmina's. :)

Yes, a real music store. Can you imagine? And what about the youngsters who follow us? Will they be, like "Amazon is a real music store, what more could you want?". ::)

Cheers,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on July 31, 2010, 07:21:21 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 31, 2010, 06:56:41 AM
Yes, a real music store. Can you imagine? And what about the youngsters who follow us? Will they be, like "Amazon is a real music store, what more could you want?". ::)

Cheers,
8)

How about lower prices, the possibility of actual human interaction, the thrill of the hunt, hearing/discovering music never heard before, the stories passed on between the customers and the staff, no delivery charge, the opportunity to support your local community and the chance to buy rare stuff that the owner doesn't know is rare and therefore prices it at $2.99? 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on July 31, 2010, 07:23:34 AM

The Carmina quartet reading is very good, and easily obtainable here:

http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/detailview.html?KEY=COCO-70790

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 31, 2010, 07:51:34 AM

Quote from: George on July 31, 2010, 07:21:21 AM
How about lower prices, the possibility of actual human interaction, the thrill of the hunt, hearing/discovering music never heard before, the stories passed on between the customers and the staff, no delivery charge, the opportunity to support your local community and the chance to buy rare stuff that the owner doesn't know is rare and therefore prices it at $2.99? 8)

:D You're getting old George, those are the sorts of fantasies that all of us old guys get on a Saturday morning; we should be getting ready to drive down to Bailey's Music right now! :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on July 31, 2010, 07:55:58 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 31, 2010, 07:51:34 AM
:D You're getting old George, those are the sorts of fantasies that all of us old guys get on a Saturday morning; we should be getting ready to drive down to Bailey's Music right now! :-\

8)

Not familiar with Bailey's, is that a local used shop?

I plan to go to PREX, http://www.prex.com/, soon. Maybe tomorrow. 8)

From their site - Browse 140,000 new & used music CDs, DVDs, and LPs. 0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 31, 2010, 08:57:03 AM

Quote from: George on July 31, 2010, 07:55:58 AM
Not familiar with Bailey's, is that a local used shop?

I plan to go to PREX, http://www.prex.com/, soon. Maybe tomorrow. 8)

From their site - Browse 140,000 new & used music CDs, DVDs, and LPs. 0:)

It was a local music shop where I was born and raised. It was over 100 years old when it closed (started out selling sheet music and pianos before phonographs. I bought my first horn there too!).

That looks like a great place to go. I really must get to the City next time I'm up north. I had been thinking about Academy, but it looks like it has company. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 31, 2010, 09:03:24 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 31, 2010, 08:57:03 AM
It was a local music shop where I was born and raised. It was over 100 years old when it closed (started out selling sheet music and pianos before phonographs. I bought my first horn there too!).

... at first I did read "before pornographs". Probably the evil influence of "Teresa's Porno Thread". :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on July 31, 2010, 09:15:34 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 31, 2010, 08:57:03 AM
It was a local music shop where I was born and raised. It was over 100 years old when it closed (started out selling sheet music and pianos before phonographs. I bought my first horn there too!).

That looks like a great place to go. I really must get to the City next time I'm up north. I had been thinking about Academy, but it looks like it has company. :)

8)

Academy sells much of their good stuff (the rare and OOP) on eBay, so PREX is the B&M place to be IMO.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 25, 2010, 07:44:31 PM

Haydn - Arianna a Naxos, Lieder & Canzonettas
Stéphanie d'Oustrac, mezzo-soprano
Aline Zylberajch, pianoforte (no specific indications about the instrument)
Recorded at the Espace culturel C.J. Bonnet, Chappel of Jujurieux (01), France - 11th-14th November, 2009
Ambronay Editions

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41f2f0XKh%2BL._SS500_.jpg)

I bought this CD attracted by the name of Aline Zylberajch, an excellent fortepianist that I have enjoyed in Mozart and, particularly, playing some Scarlatti sonatas. However, this Haydn has been rather a disappointment, basically considering the vocal part: Stéphanie d'Oustrac performs these lieder and canzonettas in a great operatic style, full of outbursts, and losing any trace of "domestic" intimacy and tenderness... :(

Of course, as usual, this French recording has won every imaginable prize of the French press. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 26, 2010, 04:57:32 AM

Thanks for that, Antoine. I might have been tempted without knowing. Guess I'll stay with my current version;
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/319K719M1NL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
with Tom Beghin and Andrea Folan. It reeks of the qualities that you mentioned. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on August 26, 2010, 03:17:50 PM

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Haydn_not2009_background.png)

Thursday, 8.26.10, 3:00 pm

Haydn – The String Quartets (Part 5) (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=2259)
op.33

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/haydnop33.png)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on August 26, 2010, 06:00:47 PM

Quote from: jlaurson on August 26, 2010, 03:17:50 PM
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Haydn_not2009_background.png)

Thursday, 8.26.10, 3:00 pm

Haydn – The String Quartets (Part 5) (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=2259)
op.33

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/haydnop33.png)

Y'know,...tap,tap,tap,... we haaave a Thread for this,...tap,tap,tap,,,

jus kiddin :-* ;D!!

Great overview,... I gotta throw the Lindsays into the mix. I don't have them right here, but I'll check against your timings. I think, in this particular Opus, the Lindsays satisfy every requirement that you have outlined above. They totally bring out the impish character of the music, the cheer, and the springy, summery sunshine. I implore all to give them a shot in this set particularly (I hear no evidence of "that"!). And, the ASV sound is perfect. You may not agree with all their choices, but, garauteed, they haaaave considered e-ver-y choice, and do something exciting always.

The overall sound in the Kodaly, as you mentioned, for me, sounds like a German beer hall, which, for this music, brings out the jollity indeed!

The Apponyi is the alternative I've been wanting to get (but I'm such an original issue junkie :'(). You have confirmed their overall victory.

...ah, Jens' love for the Festetics is legendary...

Also, I hear the Tatrai's intonation issues are particularly bad in Op.33.

What about the Weller/Decca?

btw-I was wanting to hear about the Auryn Op.20. Any word?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on August 26, 2010, 06:18:21 PM

Quote from: jlaurson on August 26, 2010, 03:17:50 PM
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Haydn_not2009_background.png)

Thanks again, Jens--better you than I. ;) Think I'll take a break from Sibelius and spin some of the Mosaiques's op 33. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on August 27, 2010, 03:07:14 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on August 26, 2010, 06:00:47 PM
Y'know,...tap,tap,tap,... we haaave a Thread for this,...tap,tap,tap,,,

Where is it again? Let's unabashedly re-post. :)

Quote
Great overview,... I gotta throw the Lindsays into the mix. I don't have them right here, but I'll check against your timings.
The overall sound in the Kodaly, as you mentioned, for me, sounds like a German beer hall, which, for this music, brings out the jollity indeed!
The Apponyi is the alternative I've been wanting to get (but I'm such an original issue junkie :'(). You have confirmed their overall victory.
...ah, Jens' love for the Festetics is legendary...
Also, I hear the Tatrai's intonation issues are particularly bad in Op.33.
btw-I was wanting to hear about the Auryn Op.20. Any word?

1.) I would have liked to include the Lindsays; I even think I have at least one of their op.33 recordings (seeing that they have always been split), but it's in storage... and the recordings are now out of print. Which means that even if someone had sent them to me, they still couldn't have been a particularly meaningful recommendation.
2.) Apponyi really is a wonderful surprise; a little bit rougher than the ice-cream-HIPness of the Mosaiques, but still perfectly capable of satisfying non-HIP-seeking Haydn lovers, too.
3.) Festetics... hey, I hear what I have to hear. You can call it a matter of priorities (i.e. if you don't give a #&$^@ about intonation or playing with a steady pitch), but I'm just objectively reporting what's there. 8)
4.) Buggers at Hungaroton wouldn't send me the Tatrai... perhaps it's for the better that they didn't?
5.) Auryn op.20 is out... did I not review that? [Checking: ah, yes, no, I didn't. I have it, though.... perhaps a follow-up. But probably not before late October or November...]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on August 27, 2010, 03:20:10 AM

reposted as per nudge:

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Haydn_not2009_background.png)

Thursday, 8.26.10, 3:00 pm

Haydn – The String Quartets (Part 5) (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=2259)
op.33

(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/haydnop33.png)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 27, 2010, 04:25:05 PM

Hi Jens - thanks for the excellent & quite extensive review - glad that I own at least two of the sets that you seem to enjoy! Dave :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on August 27, 2010, 06:24:38 PM

Quote from: jlaurson on August 27, 2010, 03:07:14 AM
Where is it again? Let's unabashedly re-post. :)

It's in the Great Recordings blah under Haydn String Quartets. I haven't checked yet to see if you've found it, but yes, for the Newcomer, please re=post! :-* ;) We will have the most KickAssHaydnSQThreadEVER!! 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on August 29, 2010, 12:42:59 AM

Here's the inevitable comment. I find it strange that you don't include major or comprehensive Haydn SQ recordings such as the Tatrai and the Angeles. And I don't see any need for the horse race format in which at the end the Quatuor Mosaiques "reigns supreme" - even though many worthy recordings haven't even been mentioned in the review. This winner-takes-all format was perhaps useful in times when recordings were few, and people had to go out of their way to purchase a record. Nowadays everything is pretty much available (including recordings that have been retired), so what people really need is a good descriptive critique, and make up their own minds, which you do too.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on August 29, 2010, 01:43:00 AM

Quote from: Herman on August 29, 2010, 12:42:59 AM
[...] so what people really need is a good descriptive critique, and make up their own minds, which you do too.

I very much agree. Though one thing becomes very clear from Jens' Haydn SQ reviews: if you like technically incompetent playing and intonation problems - the Festetics Qt is the way to go! ;D

Some alternative views on the Festetics' take on Haydn's Opus 33:

"This important period-instrument set of the quartets is now complete, against the odds, just in time for the 200th anniversary of the death of the most neglected of first-rank composers. Against the odds, the Festetics set is complete at last. For a decade, the Festetics have been releasing superbly springy recordings of Haydn's quartets on the Arcana label. But the death of the label's founder and producer Michel Bernstein a couple of years ago left the project one volume short: since then, I have hardly been able to look at my CD shelf, so maddening was it see the sequence of black spines: 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. And now you'll have to excuse me while I head over to the CD player..."
The Daily Telegraph, April 2009

"Tuning, balance and blend are impeccable; vibrato is not avoided, but used to specific expressive or colouristic effect. Those who hanker for a combination of the clarity of the best 'period' playing, with the warmth of the Hungarian tradition will find it here."
BBC Music Magazine, August 2009 ****

"The veteran Festetics Quartet are uneasy with presto finales. But they aren't slack; instead they are tautly metrical so the notes do not flow freely across the bar-lines. It may be an aspect of their style that is direct, sharp in attack and stricter than usual in rhythm, yet far from indifferent. In all the works these musicians meticulously observe phrase indications, choose dynamics where there are none, repeat both parts of a Minuet after its Trio and differentiate between the various accents. Equally meticulously they probe the slow movements of Op 33. Haydn is said to have been in love at the time he wrote this set; and, austerity of approach notwithstanding, it is easy to discern in, say, the Largo of No 4 an ardent lyric for the lady, Luigia Polzelli. Not unexpectedly, the Largo e cantabile of No 5 is seen in an even more ascetic light, G minor starkly affirmed, the violins (antiphonally separated, as always with this group) contributing to a bare-boned interpretation of the text. Not comfortable. But the Festetics don't buy comfort and the close, 'rosiny' sound brings the results right into the room. No mistaking the message. No mistaking the gauntlets either.
Unsettling – but required listening."
Gramophone Classical Music Guide, 2010

"A few years ago, the Festetics was one of my two favorite period-instrument ensembles for early-to-middle Haydn quartets (the Mosaïques was the other). It plays accurately, crisply, and in tune, with close respect for markings in the score, and it plays every repeat, including Menuets da capo. Its pitch (A = 421 Hz) would have seemed terribly low two decades ago but now feels just right. All these characteristics are reinforced by this new set, recorded in 2006 in Budapest. So what happened? Along came the Buchberger, on Brilliant Classics. It plays repeats when and if it chooses—seldom the second ones in sonata-form movements, and never in Menuets da capo. It is rather casual about score markings; staccatos are often elided. It plays period instruments at modern pitch. But it gives fresh, vital performances; its first violin and its cello are gorgeous, individual lines are always clear, and ensemble blend is ravishing.

In many of these quartets, the Buchberger makes the Festetics seem dry and lifeless. Case in point: the Presto finale of the B-Minor Quartet (op. 33/1) is played correctly and cleanly by the Festetics, and yet a sense of caution is in the air; at exactly the same tempo, the Buchberger's Presto blazes with brilliant excitement. The dry, clear Arcana recording allows every detail to be heard; the slightly more reverberant Brilliant Classics one may be less observant, but its warmth and sheen are more listener friendly. In the opening Allegro moderato of the C-Major Quartet (op. 33/3), the Festetics' reading begins to suggest a cutesy "Papa Haydn"—despite their period-practice credentials—whereas the Buchberger is strong and direct. Five measures before the close of the Andante of the D-Major (op. 33/6), the Festetics first violin plays a fancier, longer (and lovely) cadenza than that by the Buchberger, but the latter's cello holds a gorgeous pedal note throughout, while the Festetics plays unaccompanied. My Dover score shows a whole note—the cadenza comes in the middle of a measure—but it's reasonable to play the cadenza as a solo.

I must recommend this set, because these are excellent, cleanly recorded performances that meet the most exacting (and politically correct) standards. But I myself will keep listening to the Buchberger's op. 33, op. 42, and all the Haydn quartets up through op. 64. Call it my secret shame. This set is being advertised as the final volume of the Festetics' complete Haydn string quartets, but the label's Web site, www.arcana.eu, does not list any of those prior to op. 9, nor 'The Seven Last Words.'"
FANFARE: James H. North

"The Festetics Quartet are a Hungarian periodinstrument group intent on a complete Haydn cycle, though of their two previous instalments the set of Op. 9 (favourably reviewed by Si, 10/89) seems to have disappeared from the catalogue after about three months. Like HE I wasn't overenamoured with their recent disc of Opp. 77 and 103 (7/91), finding much of the playing too temperate and straitlaced, for all its austere integrity. This new set of Op. 33, I'm happy to say, sounds much more vital and committed. True, the Festetics' characteristic sonority is slightly dusty, more vibrato-shy than most period-instrument groups. But their playing has plenty of colour, dynamic variety and subtlety of detail.
The performance of No. 3 is particularly successful: the first movement, with its wide harmonic reach, is beautifully paced and shaped; and, to mention a couple of details, the initial repeated quavers and the first violin's subsequent sustained
G glide in almost imperceptibly (an effect much 46 easier to obtain with gut strings and the lighter, eighteenth-century bows), while the players find a wonderfully blanched, spectral tone for the mysterious sequence at the heart of the development (4'23"ff). In the grave, veiled scherzo ("nowhere else. . . in all music does C major sound so dark", in Rosemary Hughes's words) the Festetics are hushed and intent, never seeking to raise their voice, as many groups do, above the prescribed sotto voce; and without breaking any speed records they capture vividly the Slavonic finale's brilliance, wit and astringency.
Quartet No. 6 also comes off specially well, its 6/8 opening movement slower than usual but done with delicacy, grace and a touch of whimsy, the D minor Andante tender and absorbed—magical pianissimo playing here. And at the opposite end of the spectrum the Festetics bring a terrific bite and élan to the scherzo of No, 1 (done at a cracking one-in-a-bar), and deliciously milk the portamentos that Haydn introduces in the Trio of No. 2. Incidentally, these performances are based on the texts in the new Complete Edition of Haydn's works (Henle Verlag); and if you follow them with, say the Eulenburg miniature scores, you'll notice many discrepancies of phrasing and dynamics, and at one salient point even in the actual notes—at the start of the recapitulation in No. l's opening movement (bar 59, 422") the second violin's A naturals (an old editorial 'correction') are here rightly played as A sharps, giving the phrase a quite different meaning.
One or two movements do bring disappointment. In the finales of Nos. 2 and 4, for instance, the Festetics are a bit staid, not quite capturing the music's sportive wit; and in the variation finale of No. 5 the phrasing of the siciliano rhythms is rather flat. Two of the slow movements also raise doubts: that in No. 2 sounds distinctly brisk and prosaic for Haydn's Largo sostermuto, and tuning is occasionally uncomfortable, while for me the quasi-operatic G minor aria in No. 5 suffers from the leader's almost invariable habit of making a decrescendo on sustained notes—an expressive effect when applied selectively but here taken to excess. But don't let these provisos put you off. In the main this is stylish, imaginative, sharply detailed playing, although the recording is distinctly resonant. The Festetics certainly eclipse the rival set."
R.W. Gramophone August 1992

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on August 29, 2010, 01:57:26 AM

Quote from: Herman on August 29, 2010, 12:42:59 AM
...I don't see any need for the horse race format in which at the end the Quatuor Mosaiques "reigns supreme" - even though many worthy recordings haven't even been mentioned in the review... what people really need is a good descriptive critique, and make up their own minds, which you do too.

If that's all you can take away from nearly 2500 words, than I have failed, indeed.
And if every comparative review is doomed if it fails to mention all other recordings available (or not available), then I loath to think what the effort would be like, to review the Alpine Symphony, or the Ring Cycle, or Mozart's Symphony No.40. I don't know anyone--certainly not me--who is paid enough to actually do that.

As per BBC Magazine's priceless quote "Tuning, balance and blend are impeccable...". Wow! That's no longer a disagreement or a matter of taste, that's just a brazen lie. $:) ;)

[At least WETA (or ionarts or I) isn't / aren't dependent (or even benefiting in any way) on / from advertisements from the record industry. I trust Gramophone is still reasonably independent (though panning the Rattle-Vienna-Beethoven cycle was their last true act of courage), but even there the wiggle room is getting smaller and smaller.]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scarpia on September 11, 2010, 07:24:16 AM

I've been working my way through Dorati's set of Haydn symphonies (for years now) and I am stuck in the mid 30's. It seems to be a dull period in Haydn's output, the Allegro's strike me as lacking invention. The slow movements are often the high point, at least when they feature solo instruments. I listened to 36 most recently, and it had some lovely music for violin and cello solo. I seem to remember one a few symphonies ago having lovely writing for flute and/or other woodwind solo. But generally I am finding these less interesting than the earlier symphonies, which had an awkward experimental character to them which gave them some novelty.

Maybe I need to skip ahead to the end and work backwards.

P.S., I can't help but think, these symphonies were probably performed by Dorati once for the recording, then never again. Listening, I can just imagine the conversation over the intercom:

Engineer: "Come on, Antal, what's holding you up. We have to record 35, 36, 37, 38, and re-do the finale from 33 before lunch. That ballet class has rented the hall for the afternoon."

Dorati: "Why do we have to re-do 33?"

Engeineer: "Don't you remember, we recorded the movement before we realized that the oboe player had gone to the toilet"

Dorati: "Aw, I don't think the oboe has anything interesting in that movement anyway."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 11, 2010, 07:34:44 AM

;D Not entirely sure that Haydn was enamored of oboes anyway... :D

But look, you can't take Hoboken at face value. I know you were willing to cut some slack to the first 20 or so, but the fact is that they aren't really the first 20. Here are a few examples of where the "Hob 30's" fit in, actually. (from "Haydn Chronicle & Works" by H.C. Robbins-Landon):

Symphony #2 (1759) - Hob 37
Symphony #12 (1760) - Hob 32
Symphony #15 (1760) - Hob 33
Symphony #26 (1761) - Hob 36

Etc. etc. etc. Considering that 6, 7 & 8 (Morning, Noon & Night) are from 1761 also, and sound (to me) relatively more advanced, you can see where the Hob. #'s are just not something to go by. Difficult as it may be to get them out of your head... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scarpia on September 11, 2010, 08:03:13 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 11, 2010, 07:34:44 AM
;D Not entirely sure that Haydn was enamored of oboes anyway... :D

But look, you can't take Hoboken at face value. I know you were willing to cut some slack to the first 20 or so, but the fact is that they aren't really the first 20. Here are a few examples of where the "Hob 30's" fit in, actually. (from "Haydn Chronicle & Works" by H.C. Robbins-Landon):

Symphony #2 (1759) - Hob 37
Symphony #12 (1760) - Hob 32
Symphony #15 (1760) - Hob 33
Symphony #26 (1761) - Hob 36

Etc. etc. etc. Considering that 6, 7 & 8 (Morning, Noon & Night) are from 1761 also, and sound (to me) relatively more advanced, you can see where the Hob. #'s are just not something to go by. Difficult as it may be to get them out of your head... :-\

8)

Now I'm confused. The Dorati set doesn't mention HOB numbers, just "Symphony No so-and-so" Are those numbers "HOB" numbers? I guess it boils down to this. You wrote "Symphony #2 (1759) - Hob 37". Would that one be listed as Symphony No 2, or Symphony No 37 in Dorati's set?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 11, 2010, 08:13:24 AM

Quote from: Scarpia on September 11, 2010, 08:03:13 AM
Now I'm confused. The Dorati set doesn't mention HOB numbers, just "Symphony No so-and-so" Are those numbers "HOB" numbers? I guess it boils down to this. You wrote "Symphony #2 (1759) - Hob 37". Would that one be listed as Symphony No 2, or Symphony No 37 in Dorati's set?

Well, I was afraid this would happen... I don't have Dorati's big set, just a few singles like the Paris and "6, 7 & 8" disks. However, I can say by looking at those that he simply used Hob. numbers as "Symphony #X". So, Hob. I:12 he calls "Symphony #12". Which clearly it wasn't. The numbers that I use are the actual chronological number (as well as can be determined). So MY "Symphony #12 (Hob I:32)" is actually the 12th symphony that he composed, while Dorati's (Hob I:12) is actually the 27th symphony composed (in 1763). I hope that makes a little more sense. Meanwhile I will pop together a complete chronological with a concordance. That should help a lot!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scarpia on September 11, 2010, 08:24:39 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 11, 2010, 08:13:24 AM
Well, I was afraid this would happen... I don't have Dorati's big set, just a few singles like the Paris and "6, 7 & 8" disks. However, I can say by looking at those that he simply used Hob. numbers as "Symphony #X". So, Hob. I:12 he calls "Symphony #12". Which clearly it wasn't. The numbers that I use are the actual chronological number (as well as can be determined). So MY "Symphony #12 (Hob I:32)" is actually the 12th symphony that he composed, while Dorati's (Hob I:12) is actually the 27th symphony composed (in 1763). I hope that makes a little more sense. Meanwhile I will pop together a complete chronological with a concordance. That should help a lot!

8)

Well, makes sense. A conversion table would be helpful. There isn't one on the web somewhere?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 11, 2010, 08:30:35 AM

OK, here is a concordance. This should be most helpful. 0:)

HRL Number   Hob Number   Key   Year     Name
1     1     D    1758
2     37     C   1759 - 1760
3     18     G   1759 - 1760
4     19     D    1759 - 1760
5     2     C   1759 - 1760
6     108   Bb   1759 - 1760     Symphony B
7     16     Bb   1759 - 1760
8     17     F   1759 - 1760

Well, spacing them all out is too time-consuming, but one can accomplish that either mentally or on their own. The data is all there anyway, and as correct as possible given the limited materials that one has to work with. :-\

9   15   D    1759 - 1760
10   4   D    1759 - 1760
11   10   D    1759 - 1760
12   32   C   1759 - 1760
13   5   A   1759 - 1760
14   11   E   1759 - 1760
15   33   C   1759 - 1760
16   27   G   1759 - 1760
18   3   G   1759 - 1760
18a   107   Bb   1759 - 1760   Symphony A - also in version for stringquartet
19   20   C   1759 - 1760
20   6   D    1761   Matin / Morning
21   7   C   1761   Midi / Afternoon
22   8   G   1761   Soir / Evening
23   9   C   1762
24   25   C   1762
25   14   A   1761 - 1762
26   36   Eb   1761 - 1762
27   12   E   1763
28   13   D    1763
29   40   F   1763
30   72   D   1763
31   21   A   1764
32   22   Eb   1764   Philosopher
33   23   G   1764
34   24   D    1764
35   30   C   1765   Alleluia
36   29   E   1765
37   31   D    1765   Hornsignal / Auf dem Anstand
38   28   A   1765
39   34   D - d   1765
40   39   g   1766 - 1767
41   35   Bb   01/12/1767
42   59   A   1767   Fire
43   38   C   1767 - 1768
44   44   e   1772   Trauer / Mourning
45   58   F   1768
46   26     d   1768 - 1769   Lamentazione / Weihnacht / Christmas
47   41   C   1770 - 1771
48   48   C   1768 - 1770   Maria Theresia
49   49   f   1770 - 1771   La Passione
50   52   c   1770 - 1771
51   43   Eb   1770 - 1771   Merkur / Mercury
52   42   D   1771
53   51   B   1771 - 1773
54   45   f#   1772   Farewell
55   46   B   1772
56   47   G   1772   Palindrome
57   65   C   1772 - 1773
58   50   C   1773   In Nomine Domini
59   64   A   1773   Tempora Mutantur
60   54   G   1774
61   55   Eb   1774   Der Schulmeister / Schoolmaster
62   56   C   1774
63   57   D   1774
64   60   C   1774   Il distratto
65   68   Bb   1774 - 1775
66   66   Bb   1775 - 1776
67   69   C   1775 - 1776   Loudon
68   67   F   1775 - 1776
69   61   D   1776
70   53   D   1777 - 1779   L'Imperiale
71   63   C   1777 - 1780   La Roxelane
72   70   D   1779   Mit Pauken und Trumpeten
73   75   Bb   1779
74   71   Bb   1779 - 1780
75   62   D   1779 - 1781   Variation on No. 53
76   74   Eb   1780 - 1781
77   73   D   1780 - 1782   La Chasse, first the ouverture of the opera La fedelta premiata
78   76   Eb   1782
79   77   Bb   1782
80   78   c   1782
81   79   F   1784   novembre 1784
82   80   d   1784   8-11-1784
83   81   G   1784   8-11-1784
84   87   A   1785
85   85   Bb   1785   La Reine / Queen
86   83   g   1785   La Poule / Hen
87   84   Eb   1786
88   86   D   1786
89   82   C   1786   L'Ours / Bear
90   88   G   1787
91   89   F   1787
92   90   C   1788
93   91   Eb   1788
94   92   G   1789   Oxford
95   95   c   1791
96   96   D   1791   Miracle
97   93   D   1791
98   94   G   1792   Mit dem Paukenschlag / Surprise
99   98   Bb   1792
100   97   C   1792
101   99   Eb   1793
102   100   G   1794   Military
103   101   D   1794   Clock / Uhr
104   102   Bb   1794
105   103   Eb   1795   Mit dem Paukenwirbel / Drumroll
106   104   D   1795   London / Salomon
   105   Bb   1792   Sinfonia concertante
   106   D   1796   only 1 part, ouverture to opera Le pescatrici

----------------
Now playing:
Haydn - 76 1 Dm Op76 2 HobIII 76 Erdody 2 Fifths Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 11, 2010, 08:32:04 AM

Quote from: Scarpia on September 11, 2010, 08:24:39 AM
Well, makes sense. A conversion table would be helpful. There isn't one on the web somewhere?

I typed mine out of a book into a spread sheet (as you can now see, it doesn't convert easily to text).

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Haydn - 76 3 Dm Op76 2 HobIII 76 Erdody 2 Fifths Menuet Allegro ma non troppo

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on September 11, 2010, 09:46:22 AM

The German wikipedia article has a table that can be rearranged by column (weirdly the English one does not):

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_Sinfonien_Joseph_Haydns

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on September 11, 2010, 11:24:50 AM

Whipped up a little script which put all the raw data (thanks, Gurn) into table tags. :) Still, I could format them only so much because I think BBCode tables are not as configurable -- i.e., don't have as many attributes -- as HTML ones.

HRL	Hob	Key	Year	Name
1	1	D	1758
2	37	C	1759 - 1760
3	18	G	1759 - 1760
4	19	D	1759 - 1760
5	2	C	1759 - 1760
6	108	Bb	1759 - 1760	Symphony B
7	16	Bb	1759 - 1760
8	17	F	1759 - 1760
9	15	D	1759 - 1760
10	4	D	1759 - 1760
11	10	D	1759 - 1760
12	32	C	1759 - 1760
13	5	A	1759 - 1760
14	11	E	1759 - 1760
15	33	C	1759 - 1760
16	27	G	1759 - 1760
18	3	G	1759 - 1760
18a	107	Bb	1759 - 1760	Symphony A - also in version for stringquartet
19	20	C	1759 - 1760
20	6	D	1761	Matin / Morning
21	7	C	1761	Midi / Afternoon
22	8	G	1761	Soir / Evening
23	9	C	1762
24	25	C	1762
25	14	A	1761 - 1762
26	36	Eb	1761 - 1762
27	12	E	1763
28	13	D	1763
29	40	F	1763
30	72	D	1763
31	21	A	1764
32	22	Eb	1764	Philosopher
33	23	G	1764
34	24	D	1764
35	30	C	1765	Alleluia
36	29	E	1765
37	31	D	1765	Hornsignal / Auf dem Anstand
38	28	A	1765
39	34	D - d	1765
40	39	g	1766 - 1767
41	35	Bb	01/12/1767
42	59	A	1767	Fire
43	38	C	1767 - 1768
44	44	e	1772	Trauer / Mourning
45	58	F	1768
46	26	d	1768 - 1769	Lamentazione / Weihnacht / Christmas
47	41	C	1770 - 1771
48	48	C	1768 - 1770	Maria Theresia
49	49	f	1770 - 1771	La Passione
50	52	c	1770 - 1771
51	43	Eb	1770 - 1771	Merkur / Mercury
52	42	D	1771
53	51	B	1771 - 1773
54	45	f#	1772	Farewell
55	46	B	1772
56	47	G	1772	Palindrome
57	65	C	1772 - 1773
58	50	C	1773	In Nomine Domini
59	64	A	1773	Tempora Mutantur
60	54	G	1774
61	55	Eb	1774	Der Schulmeister / Schoolmaster
62	56	C	1774
63	57	D	1774
64	60	C	1774	Il distratto
65	68	Bb	1774 - 1775
66	66	Bb	1775 - 1776
67	69	C	1775 - 1776	Loudon
68	67	F	1775 - 1776
69	61	D	1776
70	53	D	1777 - 1779	L'Imperiale
71	63	C	1777 - 1780	La Roxelane
72	70	D	1779	Mit Pauken und Trumpeten
73	75	Bb	1779
74	71	Bb	1779 - 1780
75	62	D	1779 - 1781	Variation on No. 53
76	74	Eb	1780 - 1781
77	73	D	1780 - 1782	La Chasse, first the ouverture of the opera La fedelta premiata
78	76	Eb	1782
79	77	Bb	1782
80	78	c	1782
81	79	F	1784	novembre 1784
82	80	d	1784	8-11-1784
83	81	G	1784	8-11-1784
84	87	A	1785
85	85	Bb	1785	La Reine / Queen
86	83	g	1785	La Poule / Hen
87	84	Eb	1786
88	86	D	1786
89	82	C	1786	L'Ours / Bear
90	88	G	1787
91	89	F	1787
92	90	C	1788
93	91	Eb	1788
94	92	G	1789	Oxford
95	95	c	1791
96	96	D	1791	Miracle
97	93	D	1791
98	94	G	1792	Mit dem Paukenschlag / Surprise
99	98	Bb	1792
100	97	C	1792
101	99	Eb	1793
102	100	G	1794	Military
103	101	D	1794	Clock / Uhr
104	102	Bb	1794
105	103	Eb	1795	Mit dem Paukenwirbel / Drumroll
106	104	D	1795	London / Salomon
	105	Bb	1792	Sinfonia concertante
	106	D	1796	only 1 part, ouverture to opera Le pescatrici

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 11, 2010, 11:28:27 AM

Hah! Splendid, Navneeth!

Yes, they were columned out nicely in my spreadsheet, but when I copied/pasted into this text editor, there came no spaces at all. This is just right! :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Carmina Quartet - Haydn - 77 2 C Op76 3 HobIII 77 Erdody 3 Emperor Poco Adagio Cantabile

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 11, 2010, 01:07:14 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 11, 2010, 11:28:27 AM
Hah! Splendid, Navneeth!

Yes, they were columned out nicely in my spreadsheet, but when I copied/pasted into this text editor, there came no spaces at all. This is just right! :)

Gurn & Navneeth - VERY WELL done! Congrats for that splendidly formatted list! :D

Now, what is the easiest way to get this into a printable format? I'd love to stick the entire list w/ my Haydn Symphonies - of course, I could printout a bunch of 'screen captures' or use some OCR software - let's see if our esteemed colleagues may have some other solutions? Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 11, 2010, 01:21:44 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on September 11, 2010, 01:07:14 PM
Gurn & Navneeth - VERY WELL done! Congrats for that splendidly formatted list! :D

Now, what is the easiest way to get this into a printable format? I'd love to stick the entire list w/ my Haydn Symphonies - of course, I could printout a bunch of 'screen captures' or use some OCR software - let's see if our esteemed colleagues may have some other solutions? Dave :)

Dave,
I don't know if you're a spreadsheet guy, but if so, you have only to copy and paste it and it should but one data chunk per cell. The only way it would screw up is if it saw the blank in the last column (Name) and pulled the next data line into there to start with. Scarpia may be typing you the perfect answer now, he is better at that than I am (so is Navneeth, for that matter). :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
A.of S.M. in the F. CE - Spohr Octet #1 in d for Strings Op 65 1st mvmt

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on September 11, 2010, 01:40:18 PM

Nothing to see here. Move on.

Quote from: SonicMan on September 11, 2010, 01:07:14 PM
Gurn & Navneeth - VERY WELL done! Congrats for that splendidly formatted list! :D

Now, what is the easiest way to get this into a printable format? I'd love to stick the entire list w/ my Haydn Symphonies - of course, I could printout a bunch of 'screen captures' or use some OCR software - let's see if our esteemed colleagues may have some other solutions? Dave :)

Dave, a quick way is to copy the code portion from my post, paste it into a text editor, go to its find-and-replace option and change the '['s to '<'s and ']' to '>'s. This should change the text from BB Code to HTML. Now save the text file with a .html extension, which you can then display in a web-browser* and print it out. But you must note that this will be in a very simple format, no different than what you see here -- no borders or cells. If you (or anyone else) want, I can make changes to the script so that it pops out a neat little HTML file; but you'll have to wait for a few hours since it's getting late here. :)

*If it doesn't display properly, add

Code Select

<html><body>

to the beginning of the file and

Code Select

</body></html>

at the end.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on September 12, 2010, 08:02:36 AM

Now I feel a little silly for providing the instructions above. :-[ (I told you it was late. :D ) If you have tried that, you might have noticed that most of the code transformed nicely to HTML, with a few parts causing a mess of the whole thing. I realised this a little too late, so to set things right, I amended the code and made a PDF out of the whole thing. I did this in Ubuntu, so 'Sonic' Dave can probably see what I'm seeing right now on his travel lappy :D, while I'd appreciate input from Windows users on how it appears on their machines.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 12, 2010, 08:23:47 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on September 12, 2010, 08:02:36 AM
Now I feel a little silly for providing the instructions above. :-[ (I told you it was late. :D ) If you have tried that, you might have noticed that most of the code transformed nicely to HTML, with a few parts causing a mess of the whole thing. I realised this a little too late, so to set things right, I amended the code and made a PDF out of the whole thing. I did this in Ubuntu, so 'Sonic' Dave can probably see what I'm seeing right now on his travel lappy :D, while I'd appreciate input from Windows users on how it appears on their machines.

Ah, that came out quite nicely indeed! Always liked PDF's... :)

(Oh, Windows 7. Looks good)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Carmina Quartet - Hob 03 76 Quartet in d for Strings Op 76 #2 1st mvmt - Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 12, 2010, 08:38:14 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on September 12, 2010, 08:02:36 AM
Now I feel a little silly for providing the instructions above. :-[ (I told you it was late. :D ) If you have tried that, you might have noticed that most of the code transformed nicely to HTML, with a few parts causing a mess of the whole thing. I realised this a little too late, so to set things right, I amended the code and made a PDF out of the whole thing. I did this in Ubuntu, so 'Sonic' Dave can probably see what I'm seeing right now on his travel lappy :D, while I'd appreciate input from Windows users on how it appears on their machines.

Hi Navneeth - thanks for the extra work (beyond the call of duty!) - :D

The PDF file opens fine for me on my Ubuntu laptop (using Evince) & also on my Dell Vista laptop using Foxit!

Well done - will certainly make some printouts now! Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on September 12, 2010, 08:55:56 AM

Gurn and Dave, thanks for the feedback. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scarpia on September 12, 2010, 03:15:57 PM

Opus 106's is a big improvement, but my goal was to have them on a one-page cheat-sheet., which I have managed to do. In case anyone is interested, I've attached it in two versions, sorted by HRL and Hob number. I converted to pdf in Firefox and the result does not look right on the screen (lined disappear unless viewed at more than 100% magnification), but prints nicely. (I printed mine on two sides of a single sheet).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scarpia on September 12, 2010, 03:39:57 PM

I tweaked the browser to give a pdf file that looks better on the screen (contents basically identical).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 12, 2010, 04:01:05 PM

Ah, very nice. Useful in single page format. Of course, the big thing is to make the information available. You would have thought it was a big secret, as difficult as it was to find it. :-\

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Carmina Quartet - Hob 03:80 Quartet in Eb for Strings Op 76 #6 3rd mvmt - Menuet: Presto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scarpia on September 12, 2010, 04:03:10 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 12, 2010, 04:01:05 PM
Ah, very nice. Useful in single page format. Of course, the big thing is to make the information available. You would have thought it was a big secret, as difficult as it was to find it. :-\

Thanks again for making the information you compiled available!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 12, 2010, 04:04:01 PM

Quote from: Scarpia on September 12, 2010, 03:39:57 PM
I tweaked the browser to give a pdf file that looks better on the screen (contents basically identical).

Hello Scarpia - thanks for further tweaking this Haydn listing! Much appreciated - Dave :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 17, 2010, 04:55:11 PM

Funny thing how a topic comes up and all of a sudden you find more info than you knew was available. Of course, with Haydn you can be sure that all information you can find will be conflicting. :D

But a friend on the Haydn List turned me on to this new website, and they have apparently been working very hard to get a usable chronology of the symphonies. Their results reflect that Robbins-Landon was right about most things, however in quite a few details there are differences.

I downloaded their data and put it into a spreadsheet and printed it like the real mavens do, as a PDF file. Here it is attached, and you can compare for yourself. Interesting, I would say.

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Radio-Philharmonie Hannover \ Goritzki - Onslow Symphony #4 Op 71 in G 1st mvmt - Introduzione: Largo - Allegro spirituoso

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on September 17, 2010, 08:26:34 PM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51h%2BUjl4XBL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Grabbed this one tonight....did not even know he wrote organ concertos.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 18, 2010, 07:26:38 AM

Quote from: Bogey on September 17, 2010, 08:26:34 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51h%2BUjl4XBL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Grabbed this one tonight....did not even know he wrote organ concertos.

Hey, Bill. Nice disk that. Generally you will find that Haydn's Keyboard Concertos, Hob. XVIII, are called "concerto for keyboard". :) And that's because there is no certainty exactly which klavier they were composed for. Even his famous last one, 18:11 in D, which was composed as late as 1781 where you would assume a fortepiano, is not certainly a piano concerto. As it turns out, there was no fortepiano at Esterhazy at that time, so if he wrote it for there then it was most likely for harpsichord. However, he wrote some dynamics into it that seem to indicate piano... :-\

That said, some of the earliest ones are known to be for certain purposes. While still living in Vienna (mid-1750's), Haydn supplemented his income from giving lessons by being employed as the leader of the orchestra at the Church of Barmherzige and also as the organist for a local Count. Haydn wrote 6 concertos during this time, but only 1 autograph score survives (18:1). Even so, it is difficult to tell it was for organ except that the high end is beyond the range of a harpsichord.

Based on that sort of internal evidence, it is believed that 1, 2, 5, 8 & 10 (and possibly 6, for keyboard and violin) were originally for organ. In Haydn's own lifetime these works were played on organ, harpsichord and fortepiano, and his contemporaries and publishers called them "Concerto for Klavier", so we probably won't ever know for sure. That is SOOOooo Haydn. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on September 18, 2010, 09:16:36 AM

Great insights there, my friend. Thanks much!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 18, 2010, 09:21:35 AM

Quote from: Bogey on September 18, 2010, 09:16:36 AM
Great insights there, my friend. Thanks much!

Always delighted to make my favorite musician more accessible to all! Hope you enjoy those concerti. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Lussier / Thouin / Plourde / Loiselle - Devienne Op 73 #2 Quartet in F for Bassoon & Strings 1st mvmt - Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on September 21, 2010, 06:31:06 PM

...ah, back in the Haydn SQ Thread. mmm, smell that country air coming in through the window, and the wood.

I can't belieeeve they Locked MY ::) Thread before I got a chance to confront Gurn with those horrible things he said about me. :o I think his post should be reproduced here so that I might have,...satisfaction!! :o :o and to clear my good name in this Thread.

A duel, sir! :P

I dooo seem to recall stating that the "note" in question (the elusive Note of Destiny,...the one that makes you weep) most certainly occurs in the first mvmt of op.20/5 in f minor,... however, as I was so careful to point out at the time, the only version on which you will hear this note ring (and not pinched off), is the Lindsays' studio recording (they also have a 'live' version, I think, which I will have to seek out). The nest closest is the QM, though they still leave that crucial violin note slightly pinched.

So, no one can say that I didn't after ALL, find what I waaaas looking for,... for,...it HAD to be there,...it just had to be there, and it was. And it was in f minor. Simply Classic!... and so Metal to boot!

However, I think it was AndyD's, and JdP's comments afterwards that were right on.

So, Gurn, I'm waiting,... taptaptap,... oh, and I'll take the flowers aaand the chocolate, thank you!! :-* ;D

uhhh,...(he turns his head away, wounded and betrayed :'( )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on September 21, 2010, 07:30:27 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on September 21, 2010, 06:31:06 PM
.

I dooo seem to recall stating that the "note" in question (the elusive Note of Destiny,...the one that makes you weep) most certainly occurs in the first mvmt of op.20/5 in f minor,... however, as I was so careful to point out at the time, the only version on which you will hear this note ring (and not pinched off), is the Lindsays' studio recording (they also have a 'live' version, I think, which I will have to seek out). The nest closest is the QM, though they still leave that crucial violin note slightly pinched.

Most esteemed sir, I currently in possession of that live recording to which you make reference, and will gladly listen to it on your behalf; only I have no knowledge of what your phrase "note of destiny" refers to, and would need instruction on that point.

I remain at your service,
Kishnevi

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 22, 2010, 04:23:28 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on September 21, 2010, 06:31:06 PM
...ah, back in the Haydn SQ Thread. mmm, smell that country air coming in through the window, and the wood.

I can't belieeeve they Locked MY ::) Thread before I got a chance to confront Gurn with those horrible things he said about me. :o I think his post should be reproduced here so that I might have,...satisfaction!! :o :o and to clear my good name in this Thread.

A duel, sir! :P

I dooo seem to recall stating that the "note" in question (the elusive Note of Destiny,...the one that makes you weep) most certainly occurs in the first mvmt of op.20/5 in f minor,... however, as I was so careful to point out at the time, the only version on which you will hear this note ring (and not pinched off), is the Lindsays' studio recording (they also have a 'live' version, I think, which I will have to seek out). The nest closest is the QM, though they still leave that crucial violin note slightly pinched.

So, no one can say that I didn't after ALL, find what I waaaas looking for,... for,...it HAD to be there,...it just had to be there, and it was. And it was in f minor. Simply Classic!... and so Metal to boot!

However, I think it was AndyD's, and JdP's comments afterwards that were right on.

So, Gurn, I'm waiting,... taptaptap,... oh, and I'll take the flowers aaand the chocolate, thank you!! :-* ;D

uhhh,...(he turns his head away, wounded and betrayed :'( )

But you see, Little Snipper; Haydn wouldn't have known a 'note of destiny' if it jumped out of the fiddle and stuck its tongue in his ear. Which is the point I was making in that 'other thread'. I haven't seen you loving the music, I've seen you obsessing over the performance of it. Which I've said from the start that wasn't something that interests me. I think that 4 or 5 versions of each quartet are enough for anyone. :)

I did give you credit, extra credit, in fact, for trying hard. But like I said from the beginning, the music will not succumb to version cramming, only to patient listening, and bearing in mind that it was composed in the 18th Century, not the 19th or 20th. If you have identical expectations for Haydn as for Shostakovitch, for example, then you are doomed to disappointment. :'(

Anyway, you know I think you are the best 'stream of consciousness' writer working here today. I freely admit that I wonder sometimes which stream your consciousness arises in, but that's MY problem! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on September 22, 2010, 06:33:57 AM

(http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/98/89998-050-C13E703D.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 22, 2010, 06:45:43 AM

Quote from: DavidRoss on September 22, 2010, 06:33:57 AM
(http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/98/89998-050-C13E703D.jpg)

Now, THAT is a stream of consciousness!!! :o :o

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on September 22, 2010, 06:54:30 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 22, 2010, 06:45:43 AM
Now, THAT is a stream of consciousness!!! :o :o

8)

Some are more...er...colorful than others.

BTW, I'm still digging all the Haydn quartet recordings I bought earlier this year by Quatuor Mosaïques. Worth every penny. And, like much of Sibelius's music, islands of sanity and serenity in a world progressively more in need of both!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 22, 2010, 06:57:41 AM

Quote from: DavidRoss on September 22, 2010, 06:54:30 AM
Some are more...er...colorful than others.

BTW, I'm still digging all the Haydn quartet recordings I bought earlier this year by Quatuor Mosaïques. Worth every penny. And, like much of Sibelius's music, islands of sanity and serenity in a world progressively more in need of both!

That's excellent, David. I like those recordings too, they are good servants to the music. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on September 22, 2010, 07:03:25 AM

Quote from: kishnevi on September 21, 2010, 07:30:27 PM
Most esteemed sir, I currently in possession of that live recording to which you make reference, and will gladly listen to it on your behalf; only I have no knowledge of what your phrase "note of destiny" refers to, and would need instruction on that point.

I remain at your service,
Kishnevi

ok, I'm summoning all my powers of musical description,...

I believe that they play the repeat here in mvmt 1, so, the note in question would appear twice. The actual "buildup" occurs maybe even 3-4 times, but only at one of the two buildups does he play this "figure" (now that I think about it, it is more a "phrase of destiny", haha),.,..

I know,...I'll get the guitar and try to figure out the notes,...if you can hum it, you'll have it.

ok, in the key of f minor, the notes should be:

(five mins later,...)

ok, this isn't going to work.

Since all versions play it through the first time, I'll use the Buckbinder to find approx where the first instance occurs.

ok, the section is @ 3:55-3:59 of the Buckberger. The play the tempo pretty much like everyone else, so it should be around there in the Lindsays too (I just don't have the pre-1800 Library at this residence). Hopefully you will find it. It is the buildup leading into that glorious @7 note high point figure.

It just sounds so Overcoming to me.

And, ultimately, I know Haydn is no mystic,...I'm not saying that. His businesslike regard of music is well known. However, in spite of his coolness, there arrre those moments (I'm thinking of the beginning of the slow mvmt of 54/2, that gypsy minor key trill, yummmmmmm-eeeeee).

Perhaps Haydn wasn't all that concerned about the Note of Destiny, but that doesn't mean there was no yearning for it. I'm thinking of the swooning Romantic JM Kraus, who was so taken aback by Haydn's businesslike cool. Perhaps many of US would be disappointed by Haydn's person?

"You dick, you don't even realize the awesome power you have."

Well, I for one, am not going to blame Haydn. I think that the qualities that I was searching for ARE there in Haydn,...you just have to know where to look, and, what I've found is that the Haydn of Opp. 9/17/20 is the one who most closely resembles the "sound" I was looking for.

There are plenty of great minor key slow mvmts in those sets. And I know that they come from "another" era. Of course the Years-of-High-Classicism (magnet years: 1789-91) are another matter (mostly all major key).

The fact is, concerning my regard of Haydn, is that I have found that I DO value Haydn's "sonic sobriety", his nice and neat, elegant solutions. I DO hear the puzzle maker at work with him, and I certainly admire his gamesmanship.

And the fact is is that I can actually listen to Haydn's SQs, whereas stuff like Late Beethoven is so embedded in my brain (like Stairway to Heave) that I can barely bother. Haydn makes me look at the same basic object from sooooooooo many different angles.

I did spend ALL of last year (check this Thread) pre-1800, and ALL things have immeasurably "improved" in my life because of it. And, I DID find evidence of that elusive Romantic Spirit in the likes of JM Kraus.

No, I didn't find anything that sounded quite like Gorecki's 3rd, but, then again, neither did I find anything to suggest Satie or Varese.

I know what you mean when you say I'll never find Shosty in Haydn (Sym 9, anyone?), and, even if that's what I THOUGHT my original goal was, I have been edjumacated to receive greater wisdom, by going through what I did last year.

"The Note of Destiny" has changed meaning for me to include those moments that I have found in pre-1800 Music that "sound" closest to what I was looking for.

Perhaps this is semantics. It's the "______" of it that I'm talking about, I just don't know what that word is.

Oh yes, I HAAAAAAVE to be right! :P

Maybe I feel like you're accusing me of just not liking Haydn enough, beyond some professional interest in chopping him up into little bite sized pieces. Trust me, if I didn't like the music, I just wouldn't like the music, but, hey, it's Classical Music (and,...I mean "Classical Era"), and, who doesn't like a little non threatening music to play during the day? What's not to "like" (as opposed to Kagel)?

No, I didn't find Xenakian glissandos in Haydn (would that be Biber, haha?), but, all I was looking for was a minor 10th (or 11th?). I found it in 20/5.

(snyprrr crests the hill of corpses to survey the battlefield of ideas)

Have you ever seem ZeeTV? Hilarious!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on September 22, 2010, 07:08:37 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 22, 2010, 04:23:28 AMI haven't seen you loving the music,

but,...but,...20/5,.... I LOVE IT,...here, watch:

...mmm,nugh,..uh,...uh,....lllllmmm, hhh,hhhh,....mmmmm,...uh,uh,uh,.....UUUUGGHHHH,......oooo,.....

ok, there,.... Where's my towel?

I love it. :-*

I even love 64/1 and 64/4! TOP THAT!!!! :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on September 22, 2010, 07:09:35 AM

Quote from: DavidRoss on September 22, 2010, 06:33:57 AM
(http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/98/89998-050-C13E703D.jpg)

:-* ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 22, 2010, 07:26:29 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on September 22, 2010, 07:08:37 AM
but,...but,...20/5,.... I LOVE IT,...here, watch:

...mmm,nugh,..uh,...uh,....lllllmmm, hhh,hhhh,....mmmmm,...uh,uh,uh,.....UUUUGGHHHH,......oooo,.....

ok, there,.... Where's my towel?

I love it. :-*

I even love 64/1 and 64/4! TOP THAT!!!! :P

;D Dude, I never accuse anyone of anything! Just report my impressions. :) I can't top that, I'm afraid, although I am quite keen on Op 42...

Speaking of your Lindsays, I got their Op 50 last week (I collect Op 50's). It's sort of funny how people always equate "HIP" with really fast, because the Lindsays zip through that first movement of #1, the one that starts out with the naked cello, faster than anyone else I've heard so far, especially the HIPsters. I rather liked it overall though. So you have influenced me as far as trying out those guys. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on September 22, 2010, 01:29:45 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 22, 2010, 07:26:29 AM
;D Dude, I never accuse anyone of anything! Just report my impressions. :) I can't top that, I'm afraid, although I am quite keen on Op 42...

Speaking of your Lindsays, I got their Op 50 last week (I collect Op 50's). It's sort of funny how people always equate "HIP" with really fast, because the Lindsays zip through that first movement of #1, the one that starts out with the naked cello, faster than anyone else I've heard so far, especially the HIPsters. I rather liked it overall though. So you have influenced me as far as trying out those guys. :)

8)

Op.50 is the "Later" Lindsays, no? Not the garish "artsy" ASV covers, but the pic of the group playing? I hear their playing changed up a bit in the Last Years, gritter, perhaps? They most certainly are the zippiest group out there,... that can really hold it together (yes, I'm opposing the scrappy BBs in this regard,... with a loving heart, of course!).

How is their (Cropper's) intonation on this set? Their tone?

How is the f# minor?

...ooo...ooo...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on September 23, 2010, 11:06:35 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on September 22, 2010, 07:03:25 AM
taken aback by Haydn's businesslike cool. Perhaps many of US would be disappointed by Haydn's person?

"You dick, you don't even realize the awesome power you have."

He would just snap his fingers and his bodyguards would diminish you to a slobbering pool of slobber.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on September 25, 2010, 08:16:50 AM

Quote from: Herman on September 23, 2010, 11:06:35 AM
He would just snap his fingers and his bodyguards would diminish you to a slobbering pool of slobber.

"I have grown weary of your insolence,...guards!"

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on October 11, 2010, 07:33:48 AM

Once again, I've come around to looking for the perfect Op.76.

Currently I have the Auryn (Tacet), Alberni (Collins), 1/2 ABQ (1,5,6; EMI), Tatrai (Hungaroton), Kodaly (Naxos),...aaaand,... I can't remember.

I went through Amazon, listening to samples:

1) I was totally vinegared by the Kuijken on Denon, convincing me that I don't want ultra-super-HIP is my Late Haydn. I just felt like there was a piece of paper buzzing through the fiddles. The actual performance was pretty snappy, but there was just to much "HIP" sound here for me.

2) I'm not consider either QM or QF for this particular craving.

3) I'll probably end up getting the other half of the ABQ set, though their recording has a curious aggressiveness (that has been mentioned by others also) that, though it really doesn't mitigate against pleasure, does make itself known here and there. Still, it's hard not to put this is the very top tier.

4) The Eder set, on Historical Society (formerly on Teldec), for some reason, is calling me. Why do I think this set may be the one?

5) The same goes for that Carmina (Denon) set that Gurn or Karl keeps mentioning. They certainly have a very velvety and unified sound in the Szymanowski.

6) The Takacs(?: Decca) is very tempting,...even without samples. But no one here has even mentioned them. This is a toughy.

7) I think that leaves the infamous Buchberger (Brilliant). I think I might enjoy their slash and burn approach,... or, I'm just feelin onery today! But, if they are as reckless as usual, this one could be a whole lot of fun.

8) I think Gurn said the Tokyo set wasn't The One.

The Auryn leave me wanting more. Sure, they're perfect, but,...

The Alberni are too unique to be a first choice (though, very good in their own right). I find the Kodaly middlin. The Tatrai's set has a 50/50 give/take that leaves me not listening (though, I can hear the vintage air in the recording,...delicious!).

ok, back to bed...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 11, 2010, 07:42:48 AM

No, I said the Tatrai wasn't "The One", at least for me. I found it plodding in places where it should have been snapping. Good intonation though...

I think the Tokyo doesn't achieve the level of inspiration that their Op 50 does, but I like it for a modern set. I've never heard you Auryn, I don't know them at all but lots of people talk nice about them. The Carmina is still my favorite, and in PI it is probably an unusual tie between the QF & QM. I'd like to give that Kuijken a try though... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 11, 2010, 07:43:48 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on October 11, 2010, 07:33:48 AM
Once again, I've come around to looking for the perfect Op.76.

Currently I have the Auryn (Tacet), Alberni (Collins), 1/2 ABQ (1,5,6; EMI), Tatrai (Hungaroton), Kodaly (Naxos),...aaaand,... I can't remember.

I went through Amazon, listening to samples:

1) I was totally vinegared by the Kuijken on Denon, convincing me that I don't want ultra-super-HIP is my Late Haydn. I just felt like there was a piece of paper buzzing through the fiddles. The actual performance was pretty snappy, but there was just to much "HIP" sound here for me.

2) I'm not consider either QM or QF for this particular craving.

3) I'll probably end up getting the other half of the ABQ set, though their recording has a curious aggressiveness (that has been mentioned by others also) that, though it really doesn't mitigate against pleasure, does make itself known here and there. Still, it's hard not to put this is the very top tier.

4) The Eder set, on Historical Society (formerly on Teldec), for some reason, is calling me. Why do I think this set may be the one?

5) The same goes for that Carmina (Denon) set that Gurn or Karl keeps mentioning. They certainly have a very velvety and unified sound in the Szymanowski.

6) The Takacs(?: Decca) is very tempting,...even without samples. But no one here has even mentioned them. This is a toughy.

7) I think that leaves the infamous Buchberger (Brilliant). I think I might enjoy their slash and burn approach,... or, I'm just feelin onery today! But, if they are as reckless as usual, this one could be a whole lot of fun.

8) I think Gurn said the Tokyo set wasn't The One.

The Auryn leave me wanting more. Sure, they're perfect, but,...

The Alberni are too unique to be a first choice (though, very good in their own right). I find the Kodaly middlin. The Tatrai's set has a 50/50 give/take that leaves me not listening (though, I can hear the vintage air in the recording,...delicious!).

ok, back to bed...

Oh, dear snyprrr, I was reading your post, but unfortunately my interest only lasted until your point number 2). ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on October 11, 2010, 12:39:39 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 11, 2010, 07:43:48 AM
Oh, dear snyprrr, I was reading your post, but unfortunately my interest only lasted until your point number 2). ;D

..zzz..,...huh?, wha,...zzz...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on October 11, 2010, 01:44:37 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 11, 2010, 07:43:48 AM
Oh, dear snyprrr, I was reading your post, but unfortunately my interest only lasted until your point number 2). ;D

You made it farther than I usually do. A style so disrespectful of potential readers suggests that the author has little of interest to communicate--and is less interested in communicating than in indulging himself at the PC keyboard.

No doubt he sees it as a playful expression of his wit. And no doubt he's bright enough that, with some tempering, he will understand that some conventions are grounded in reason.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 11, 2010, 02:24:33 PM

Quote from: DavidRoss on October 11, 2010, 01:44:37 PM
You made it farther than I usually do. A style so disrespectful of potential readers suggests that the author has little of interest to communicate--and is less interested in communicating than in indulging himself at the PC keyboard.

No doubt he sees it as a playful expression of his wit. And no doubt he's bright enough that, with some tempering, he will understand that some conventions are grounded in reason.

Sorry, David, but I was not criticizing snyprrr's style. He eliminated all HIP contenders in his first two numbers and I am not currently interested in Haydn played on modern instruments, maybe with the exception of two or three pianists playing the piano sonatas (not the keyboard concertos). That's all. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on October 11, 2010, 04:14:55 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 11, 2010, 02:24:33 PM
Sorry, David, but I was not criticizing snyprrr's style. He eliminated all HIP contenders in his first two numbers and I am not currently interested in Haydn played on modern instruments, maybe with the exception of two or three pianists playing the piano sonatas (not the keyboard concertos). That's all. :)

I understand. Actually, that was more readable than most. But I only made it to the end of point one. Too much HIP sound? Impossible! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on October 11, 2010, 04:21:05 PM

I don't really pay much attention to HIP vs. non-HIP. Most groups are going to play with some HIP awareness these days anyway. The Buchbergers, for example, play in HIP style on modern instruments. Matters of tone and balance are more important to me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 11, 2010, 04:36:20 PM

Quote from: Daverz on October 11, 2010, 04:21:05 PM
I don't really pay much attention to HIP vs. non-HIP. Most groups are going to play with some HIP awareness these days anyway. The Buchbergers, for example, play in HIP style on modern instruments. Matters of tone and balance are more important to me.

Buchbergers, precisely, play in what I would call "modern style", but on period instruments.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 11, 2010, 04:41:34 PM

Quote from: Daverz on October 11, 2010, 04:21:05 PM
I don't really pay much attention to HIP vs. non-HIP. Most groups are going to play with some HIP awareness these days anyway. The Buchbergers, for example, play in HIP style on modern instruments. Matters of tone and balance are more important to me.

True; problem is most of the ones that Little Snipper talks about aren't from "these days", they're from "those days". :D And by eliminating the PI versions up front, it doesn't leave a lot to talk about, although I certainly tried. 0:)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Ma´ alot Quintett - arr. Guido Schäfer - Op 043 Incidental music to 'The Creatures of Prometheus' arr for Wind Quintet pt 07 - Allegro con brio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 11, 2010, 05:34:56 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 11, 2010, 04:36:20 PM
Buchbergers, precisely, play in what I would call "modern style", but on period instruments.

To be totally clear and honest, although the instruments indicated by the recordings of the Buchberger Quartet are listed as period instruments (Storioni, Testore, etc.), I am sure they have been "modernized" to some important extent, including the use of certain strings of metal. I don't have information about their bows, but probably are not period bows. Anyway, talking about the interpretation itself, it's true they don't use the excessive vibrato of the past, but their tempi and general "gesture" are distant from what I would call a historically informed interpretation, although they use excellent new editions of the quartets.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on October 12, 2010, 10:30:06 AM

I'm going by what's in the info included on the CDROM in the Buchberger's set:

"Even ensembles which, like ours, opt for performing Haydn's works [...] on modern instruments cannot easily ignore the contributions of historical performance practice."

(via Fanfare, since I'm too lazy to check the PDF.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on October 12, 2010, 11:16:24 AM

Snips, there isn't a One recording of the six opus 76. However I would recommend trying to get hold of the two Supraphon cds with the Panocha Qt.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 12, 2010, 11:22:29 AM

Get the other 1/2 of ABQ snips, and balance the aggressiveness with QM if it bothers you. Like Herman said there are many great recordings. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: bwv 1080 on October 12, 2010, 11:24:04 AM

after the discussion on the Gewandhaus LvB recording, got this today
(http://www.membran.net/images/10416_60148_front.jpg)

great renditions of op 76 2-4

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2010, 11:39:34 AM

Quote from: Herman on October 12, 2010, 11:16:24 AM
Snips, there isn't a One recording of the six opus 76. However I would recommend trying to get hold of the two Supraphon cds with the Panocha Qt.

Now that sounds interesting. I'll have to look that up.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: MN Dave on October 12, 2010, 11:54:38 AM

Good lord. I can't even make it through that Naxos box. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on October 12, 2010, 12:03:04 PM

Quote from: Herman on October 12, 2010, 11:16:24 AM
Snips, there isn't a One recording of the six opus 76. However I would recommend trying to get hold of the two Supraphon cds with the Panocha Qt.

Also their Op. 55.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 12, 2010, 12:04:52 PM

Quote from: MN Dave on October 12, 2010, 11:54:38 AM
Good lord. I can't even make it through that Naxos box. ;D

You have a new project-- listen to each cd in that box 3-6 times each. That is what I did when I got the set. :) btw I love Haydn. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: MN Dave on October 12, 2010, 12:06:36 PM

Quote from: DavidW on October 12, 2010, 12:04:52 PM
You have a new project-- listen to each cd in that box 3-6 times each. That is what I did when I got the set. :) btw I love Haydn. ;D

That would take me several lifetimes. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2010, 12:07:31 PM

Quote from: MN Dave on October 12, 2010, 11:54:38 AM
Good lord. I can't even make it through that Naxos box. ;D

You can DO this... you CAN do this! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: MN Dave on October 12, 2010, 12:16:38 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2010, 12:07:31 PM
You can DO this... you CAN do this! :D

8)

I could if I didn't have hundreds of other things to listen to.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2010, 12:17:36 PM

Quote from: MN Dave on October 12, 2010, 12:16:38 PM
I could if I didn't have hundreds of other things to listen to.

Oh, don't whine. This is HAYDN for god's sake! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: MN Dave on October 12, 2010, 12:19:31 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2010, 12:17:36 PM
Oh, don't whine. This is HAYDN for god's sake! :D

8)

Who takes a back seat to a few other composers. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2010, 12:21:59 PM

Quote from: MN Dave on October 12, 2010, 12:19:31 PM
Who takes a back seat to a few other composers. ;D

None that I know... 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 12, 2010, 12:22:21 PM

Quote from: MN Dave on October 12, 2010, 12:19:31 PM
Who takes a back seat to a few other composers. ;D

I think we need an exorcism performed here. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: MN Dave on October 12, 2010, 12:28:40 PM

Oh my. Okay. I'll make it through the box by this time next year. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on October 12, 2010, 12:38:10 PM

WOW! :o,... where to begin? ??? :-\

ok,... how 'bout with a " :D"?
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

GUUUYS!!!

Just listen to the Kuijken samples on Amazon and tell me these guys don't sound,...mm,... 3X as HIP as the Esterhazy do on that RCA/Op.20.

All I was saying was,... that,... the "vibrating paper" sound that one might occasionally encounter in HIP,... c'mon guys, you know it, you looove it!,... please tell me you know what I'm talkin'bout,...(not sayin good or bad, jus sayin it DOES exist,...no?)

Sooo,... jus listen to the samples for Op.76,... anyone find it just-a-teensy-weensy-bit-much in the vinegar department? Had it been Op.20, you wouldn't have heard a peep out of me. And besides, I like the QM just fine in Op.76, so, it's not a "VS." thing here (Mod vs HIP).

~~All I was saying is that I would like a "white Mercedes convertible" version: modern, sleek, smooth, yet vigorous,.... ultra super perfect~~...Herman, yes, Panocha should be on the table here, too (however,...price$$$).

I would even consider the Lindsay here, but I've heard mixed reviews concerning this particular set (and you have to go set by set with them). Still, the price is doable.

Panocha, Eder, Carmina, Lindsays, ABQ, Auryn, Gewandhaus (interesting!), Buchberger, Kodaly, Takacs, etc.,... yes!,... the list is impressive!!

So,... listen to the Kuijken samples on Amazon. What do you think?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on October 12, 2010, 12:57:54 PM

Where's the tea?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on October 12, 2010, 01:07:24 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on October 12, 2010, 12:38:10 PM
WOW! :o,... where to begin? ??? :-\

ok,... how 'bout with a " :D"?
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

GUUUYS!!!

Just listen to the Kuijken samples on Amazon and tell me these guys don't sound,...mm,... 3X as HIP as the Esterhazy do on that RCA/Op.20.

All I was saying was,... that,... the "vibrating paper" sound that one might occasionally encounter in HIP,... c'mon guys, you know it, you looove it!,... please tell me you know what I'm talkin'bout,...(not sayin good or bad, jus sayin it DOES exist,...no?)

Sooo,... jus listen to the samples for Op.76,... anyone find it just-a-teensy-weensy-bit-much in the vinegar department? Had it been Op.20, you wouldn't have heard a peep out of me. And besides, I like the QM just fine in Op.76, so, it's not a "VS." thing here (Mod vs HIP).

~~All I was saying is that I would like a "white Mercedes convertible" version: modern, sleek, smooth, yet vigorous,.... ultra super perfect~~...Herman, yes, Panocha should be on the table here, too (however,...price$$$).

I would even consider the Lindsay here, but I've heard mixed reviews concerning this particular set (and you have to go set by set with them). Still, the price is doable.

Panocha, Eder, Carmina, Lindsays, ABQ, Auryn, Gewandhaus (interesting!), Buchberger, Kodaly, Takacs, etc.,... yes!,... the list is impressive!!

So,... listen to the Kuijken samples on Amazon. What do you think?

Now that's what I'm talking about, Antoine. Who can be bothered?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 12, 2010, 04:04:39 PM

OH MY! The never ending quest for the Holy Grail - there is plenty available to enjoy multiple times over w/o the need to find the ultimate! ;) ;D

(http://www.graphpaper.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/holy_grail_660.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2010, 04:16:38 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on October 12, 2010, 04:04:39 PM
OH MY! The never ending quest for the Holy Grail - there is plenty available to enjoy multiple times over w/o the need to find the ultimate! ;) ;D

(http://www.graphpaper.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2007/02/holy_grail_660.jpg)

But I really like Op 76 #2, which, I just remembered, is Grail-shaped.... :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Les Adieux - Danzi Op 56 #2 Quartet in d for Flute & Strings 2nd mvmt - Andantino

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 12, 2010, 04:19:09 PM

I think that Op 76 is so accessible that there is no grail, the works themselves are the grail. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2010, 04:23:38 PM

Quote from: DavidW on October 12, 2010, 04:19:09 PM
I think that Op 76 is so accessible that there is no grail, the works themselves are the grail. :)

Yup, that's what I was saying too. Anyway, I hate to play the version game. 1 nice version + a strong alternate for those days when you have cramps and bloating... so to speak. That's all you need. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Les Adieux - Danzi Op 56 #2 Quartet in d for Flute & Strings 3rd mvmt - Minuetto - Trio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 12, 2010, 05:58:42 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2010, 04:23:38 PM
... I hate to play the version game. 1 nice version + a strong alternate for those days when you have cramps and bloating... so to speak. That's all you need.

It's all YOU need. I love that version game! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2010, 06:16:06 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 12, 2010, 05:58:42 PM
It's all YOU need. I love that version game! ;D

Publishers LOVE you! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 12, 2010, 06:31:05 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2010, 06:16:06 PM
Publishers LOVE you! :D

I suppose I am an intensive collector more than an extensive one. My real interests are limited to a handful of composers. Unfortunately for my bank account, my two favorite composers were quite prolific. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 12, 2010, 07:38:19 PM

Quote from: Daverz on October 12, 2010, 10:30:06 AM
I'm going by what's in the info included on the CDROM in the Buchberger's set:

"Even ensembles which, like ours, opt for performing Haydn's works [...] on modern instruments cannot easily ignore the contributions of historical performance practice."

(via Fanfare, since I'm too lazy to check the PDF.)

As I said before, I have never considered the Buchbergers a HIP ensemble. But if they are simply playing on modern instruments, the information of the booklets is terribly inaccurate because it clearly suggests the use of period instruments when lists the performers:

Hubert Buchberger violin I (Lorenzo Storioni, Cremona, ca. 1775)

Julia Greve violin II (Carlo Antonio Testore, Milan, 1747)

Joachim Etzel, viola (Michael Ledfuss, St. Gallen, 1990)

Helmut Sohler cello (Paolo Antonio Testore, Milan 1750)

Obviously that is a clear affirmation of use of period instruments, isn't it?

So clear that the reviewer of Fanfare cited by you, stated in several occasions that the Buchbergers played on period instruments:

Quote
HAYDN String Quartets, op. 17/1–6 • Buchberger Qrt (period instruments) • BRILLIANT 93760 (2 CDs: 120:08)

This is Volume 7 of the Buchbergers' traversal of Haydn's string quartets. Although seven two-CD sets is not enough to encompass them all, the series has been completed, and is about to be issued whole on 20 CDs, as part of Brilliant Classics's monster "Haydn Edition," a 150-CD box. I've been told that Brilliant also plans to issue just the quartets as a set. As in much of its previous Haydn, the Buchberger is frustratingly inconsistent. The good news is that it has a marvelous feeling for Haydn's music and that the four period instruments are well matched and balanced, their gorgeous ensemble sonority fully captured by the recorded sound. It also plays all repeats except in Menuets da capo. The bad news is that these players can be cavalier about the notes on the page, eliding details more than some other ensembles that have recorded Haydn quartets. That didn't come strongly into play in the comparatively heavy going of op. 20, and the Buchbergers struck me as marvelous there—readers may have found my reviews of the Buchbergers as inconsistent as their performances.

Although I don't have scores at hand for op. 17 (the inexpensive Dover series, with its large, clear print, goes back only to op. 20, to my knowledge), comparisons with other recordings, primarily the Kodály and Schneider Quartets, show that the trend continues; both groups play with sharper attacks and greater verve in Allegro molto and Presto finales than does the Buchberger. Nevertheless, I prefer these new recordings, not only for their lovely sound but also for the ease and elegance of the performances, next to which the others sound rough and awkward. There is little competition for op. 17 on period instruments; a quick search on the Net did not turn up recordings by either Quatour Festetics or Quatour Mosaïques. Ideal recordings of op. 17 may not now exist, but I am happy with the Buchberger.

FANFARE: James H. North

Personally, I considered that the metallic sound of the instruments was the result of a mix of modernized instruments (including bows), some metal strings and the wrong pitch; but maybe those instruments are, plain and simply, modern instruments.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on October 12, 2010, 10:24:29 PM

Did anyone listen to those Kuijken samples? ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on October 13, 2010, 12:36:16 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 12, 2010, 07:38:19 PM
As I said before, I have never considered the Buchbergers a HIP ensemble. But if they are simply playing on modern instruments, the information of the booklets is terribly inaccurate because it clearly suggests the use of period instruments when lists the performers:

Hubert Buchberger violin I (Lorenzo Storioni, Cremona, ca. 1775)

Julia Greve violin II (Carlo Antonio Testore, Milan, 1747)

Joachim Etzel, viola (Michael Ledfuss, St. Gallen, 1990)

Helmut Sohler cello (Paolo Antonio Testore, Milan 1750)

Obviously that is a clear affirmation of use of period instruments, isn't it?

So clear that the reviewer of Fanfare cited by you, stated in several occasions that the Buchbergers played on period instruments:

Personally, I considered that the metallic sound of the instruments was the result of a mix of modernized instruments (including bows), some metal strings and the wrong pitch; but maybe those instruments are, plain and simply, modern instruments.

In that case Heifetz and Oistrakh were HIP too.

Every major violinist plays on a 18th century instrument.

And all of these instruments have been heavily doctored over time.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 13, 2010, 02:38:56 AM

Quote from: Herman on October 13, 2010, 12:36:16 AM
In that case Heifetz and Oistrakh were HIP too.

Every major violinist plays on a 18th century instrument.

And all of these instruments have been heavily doctored over time.

Yes, but you have securely noticed that the convention, the tradition, the standard –name it as you want- accepted today for classical labels is only to list the instruments that way when they are period instruments. A Testore from 1750 is not more a real Testore when has been modernized and it's totally inaccurate to list all the instruments of a string quartet as if they were period instruments, when they are modern or modernized instruments, especially when it's the only information included about the instruments in an extense booklet with detailed historical considerations. It's a source of confusion like the quote of the reviewer of Fanfare demonstrates.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 13, 2010, 06:32:45 AM

If Buchbergers are real deal HIP they would use the correct tuning. No I think that if you want to talk HIP you're talking Festetics and Mosaiques.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on October 13, 2010, 06:45:24 AM

Quote from: DavidW on October 13, 2010, 06:32:45 AM
If Buchbergers are real deal HIP they would use the correct tuning. No I think that if you want to talk HIP you're talking Festetics and Mosaiques.

Is there such a thing as "correct" tuning? Correct tuning in what municipality at what time.
There are good reasons to doubt that the Bb Quartet's credentials are in fact bona fide "HIP",
but the fact that they play at 440 is probably the least contentious of them. The style of bow,
the strings, and the differences between up- and down-bow are much, much more important.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 13, 2010, 06:49:16 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on October 13, 2010, 06:45:24 AM
Is there such a thing as "correct" tuning? Correct tuning in what municipality at what time.
There are good reasons to doubt that the Bb Quartet's credentials are in fact bona fide "HIP",
but the fact that they play at 440 is probably the least contentious of them. The style of bow,
the strings, and the differences between up- and down-bow are much, much more important.

This is all true, but you have to start somewhere. And A=440 isn't it. True, they don't need to go down to 415 (my preference), but 430 makes a lovely sound. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on October 13, 2010, 06:51:44 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 13, 2010, 06:49:16 AMbut 430 makes a lovely sound. :)

I agree! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 13, 2010, 06:54:41 AM

I agree that those are all important factors, but the difference between a modern performance pretending to be HIP and an actual HIP is that the former sees these choices as an a la carte menu. And this is not Romantic era music, we're not in the domain of 440 being the standard.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 13, 2010, 06:56:06 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 13, 2010, 06:49:16 AM
This is all true, but you have to start somewhere. And A=440 isn't it. True, they don't need to go down to 415 (my preference), but 430 makes a lovely sound. :)

8)

Yeah I think classical era used 432 right? It still has a distinctly darker sound to it that has clearly separated the PIons I've heard from the Buchberger sound.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on October 13, 2010, 07:02:22 AM

Quote from: DavidW on October 13, 2010, 06:56:06 AM
Yeah I think classical era used 432 right? It still has a distinctly darker sound to it that has clearly separated the PIons I've heard from the Buchberger sound.

Where does the idea come from that there is on standard pitch for any one era? It literally differs from zip code to zip code throughout music history... and even today there no standard, seeing that "HIP" groups have different standards than 'modern' orchestras... and that they, too, differ from one another (albeit usually just about +/- 6 Hz around the 440 mark).

Anything between A = 460 Hz and above ("Venice" baroque pitch) to A = 392 Hz and below ("French" baroque pitch) was applied at one point in one location or another.

(For anyone with "perfect" pitch, A = 433 Hz is pure torture.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 13, 2010, 07:13:28 AM

Well okay we're talking about Austrio-Germanic, within that context the 440 pitch is too high. If we're talking Vivaldi that is a different story. We know that Haydn is the conversation, so the really different pitches used in the southern parts of the continent are not applicable here.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on October 13, 2010, 09:03:29 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 13, 2010, 02:38:56 AM
Yes, but you have securely noticed that the convention, the tradition, the standard –name it as you want- accepted today for classical labels is only to list the instruments that way when they are period instruments. A Testore from 1750 is not more a real Testore when has been modernized and it's totally inaccurate to list all the instruments of a string quartet as if they were period instruments, when they are modern or modernized instruments, especially when it's the only information included about the instruments in an extense booklet with detailed historical considerations. It's a source of confusion like the quote of the reviewer of Fanfare demonstrates.

No, I have not noticed that, and I think the reason why is because it isn't so.

Perhaps this is how some über-HIP violinists and their instrument dealers wish to see it, but in spite of this solo violinists with great 18th C instruments will continue to mention the pedigree of their instruments, and they have a perfect right to do so.

Obviously a lot of HIP historical instruments have been restored, too, in many cases back from some state of technical modernity. The number of hale 18th century violins is not unlimited.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on October 15, 2010, 06:46:04 AM

I started an 'A=440???" Thread.

Let's talk Op.77.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on October 15, 2010, 11:44:47 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 13, 2010, 02:38:56 AM
Yes, but you have securely noticed that the convention, the tradition, the standard –name it as you want- accepted today for classical labels is only to list the instruments that way when they are period instruments...

...I agree that that's not the new convention. If the BOWS are listed by maker and year, then we are talking a reasonable suspicion of HIP. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 16, 2010, 06:56:56 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on October 15, 2010, 11:44:47 PM
...I agree that that's not the new convention. If the BOWS are listed by maker and year, then we are talking a reasonable suspicion of HIP. :)

Well, Jens, I suppose you have a good amount of discs performed by HIP ensembles.

How many of them do not indicate the instruments used in the recording?

I have hundreds of discs by HIP ensembles and soloists playing on period instruments and the instruments are always indicated in the way that they are in the booklet of the Buchbergers. The percentage of booklets of HIP ensembles with no information about the instruments is close to zero.

The information about the bows, strings, etc. is not yet very usual even respect of credited HIP ensembles and soloists, although many small labels include extremely accurate information in specific aspects of the historical instruments or copies used; that's the case, for instance, of Amon Ra, Athene, Musica Omnia, Ambroisie and many others.

On the other hand, how many ensembles playing on modern or modernized instruments list their instruments in the way of the Buchbergers? Again, in my experience, the percentage is extremely low.

How many recordings of the great violinists of the fifties o sixties indicated the origin and year of the instruments? How many modern violinists playing on modern or modernized instruments indicate their instruments with some detail? Not many of them, I think.

How many discs of modern orchestras indicate the origin and date of their instruments? Because even in the case of orchestral and symphonic music the recordings by HIP groups usually include details not only about the instruments of the soloist, but frequently the instruments of the orchestral group.

In short, I am talking about an empirical observation, not of a musical philosophy according to which the instruments are finally irrelevant (especially in favour of modern instruments, of course).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on October 16, 2010, 10:43:20 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 16, 2010, 06:56:56 AM

In short, I am talking about an empirical observation, not of a musical philosophy according to which the instruments are finally irrelevant (especially in favour of modern instruments, of course).

It is true that HIP ensembles are a little bit more overtly fetishistic about the pedigree of their instruments. However, you weren't just making an empirical comment about what is sometimes printed in cd booklets:

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 13, 2010, 02:38:56 AM
A Testore from 1750 is not more a real Testore when has been modernized and it's totally inaccurate to list all the instruments of a string quartet as if they were period instruments, when they are modern or modernized instruments

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on October 16, 2010, 08:46:58 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 12, 2010, 07:38:19 PM
So clear that the reviewer of Fanfare cited by you, stated in several occasions that the Buchbergers played on period instruments:

From the same review I quoted earlier:

"Modern instruments! And I have been telling you all along that these were period instruments played at modern pitch. Mea culpa. This is indicative of another point I have been making about performances of music by Haydn and by other composers: because so many artists have been adapting to period practices, regardless of the instruments they play, the distance between the two worlds has shrunk."

(Sorry I'm a bit tardy with this.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 22, 2010, 02:19:43 AM

Can someone recommend a recording of Symphony 68?

Very good adagio!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on October 22, 2010, 02:42:03 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 22, 2010, 02:19:43 AM
Can someone recommend a recording of Symphony 68?

Very good adagio!

What styles are you into?

It's not that easy to get just 68... but there are options, all of which have merits:

Hogwood (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000026C0H?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000026C0H) is OOP, me thinks. Fischer (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00000IOB8?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00000IOB8). Harnoncourt. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000095IVG?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000095IVG)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 22, 2010, 06:38:12 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 05, 2010, 08:15:51 AM

Tempting, very tempting. But can I justify a third box of Londons within the space of a couple of months? Only if Mrs. Rock doesn't find out ;D

Sarge

But perhaps another set of Paris would be completely justified, isn't it? I mean if you don't have this wonderful set:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61TDAL3FuUL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

P.S.: It's clear you have that set.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 05, 2010, 07:52:38 AM
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #82 C MAJOR "L'OURS" (BEAR)   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #83 G MINOR "LA POULE" (HEN)   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #84 E FLAT   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #85 B FLAT "LA REINE DE FRANCE"   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #86 D MAJOR   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN
HAYDN   SYMPHONY #87 A MAJOR   HARNONCOURT   CON MUSICUS WIEN

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scarpia on October 22, 2010, 06:40:30 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 22, 2010, 06:38:12 AM
But perhaps another set of Paris would be completely justified, isn't it? I mean if you don't have this wonderful set:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61TDAL3FuUL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Finally something we can agree on. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 22, 2010, 06:44:08 AM

Quote from: Scarpia on October 22, 2010, 06:40:30 AM
Finally something we can agree on. ;D

Then I probably need to listen to those discs again! ;) ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 23, 2010, 07:56:36 AM

What is Haydn's best tragic music?

I have been playing Piano Sonata No. 33 Hob XVI/20, a lot recently, and I'm struck by its epic tragic quality.

I can think of some other quite sad movements in Haydn. Symphony 44's adagio as Scherchen plays it; the fantasia from the quartet Op 76/6 (as everyone plays it); the largo from the Piano sonata 50 Hob XVI/37. But nothing quite as sustained and "hard" , "tough" as Piano sonata 33.

Anyway – any other tragic Haydn that you like?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 24, 2010, 05:03:27 PM

Do you know the Variations in F minor, Hob.XVII:6, also known as Sonata un piccolo divertimento? Not "tragic" exactly, but sadly resigned (as it was defined by a friend of mine some time ago). Here it is played on an English square piano by the excellent -and almost unknown- Joanna Leach:

http://www.mediafire.com/?nytwjmnwygk

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 27, 2010, 10:38:20 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 24, 2010, 05:03:27 PM
Do you know the Variations in F minor, Hob.XVII:6, also known as Sonata un piccolo divertimento? Not "tragic" exactly, but sadly resigned (as it was defined by a friend of mine some time ago). Here it is played on an English square piano by the excellent -and almost unknown- Joanna Leach:

http://www.mediafire.com/?nytwjmnwygk

That's nice performance -- thank you. And it's the only one I have on an old instrument.

Not everyone plays it "sadly resigned". Pletnev speeds it up and turns it into something far from melancholy. I like it like that actually.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 27, 2010, 03:00:31 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 27, 2010, 10:38:20 AM
... it's the one one I have on an old instrument.

Complete recording of Haydn's piano sonatas on a sampled Walther fortepiano (http://www.sf-media.12hp.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=19%3Ahaydn-complete-pianosonatas&Itemid=6&layout=default&lang=en/)

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on October 28, 2010, 05:25:11 AM

Not really tragic all along, but certainly very drammatic, with some quite desolate moments: Symphony no. 95 in C minor.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on November 01, 2010, 06:21:17 AM

Probably not news around these parts, but for an ongoing series of the Haydn Piano Trios, one can hardly do better than the recordings by Trio 1790.

This group also is offering trios by other classical era composers that one doesn't often find, e.g., I recently acquired a set of five trios (http://www.amazon.com/Dussek-Piano-Trios-Jan-Ladislav/dp/B00004TTK0/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1288621160&sr=1-11) by Ladislav Dussek that is excellent.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on November 01, 2010, 06:25:02 AM

Quote from: Leon on November 01, 2010, 06:21:17 AM
Probably not news around these parts, but for an ongoing series of the Haydn Piano Trios, one can hardly do better than the recordings by Trio 1790.

Well I don't know Van Swieten Trio is just as good and has the benefit of having the entire set on my shelf! :D Plus if I had to choose today, I know gmgers don't like to talk about this, but one set is bargain priced the other is full price for the same works, the same interpretation on PI, the same sound quality.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 01, 2010, 06:27:28 AM

Quote from: DavidW on November 01, 2010, 06:25:02 AM
Well I don't know Van Swieten Trio is just as good and has the benefit of having the entire set on my shelf! :D Plus if I had to choose today, I know gmgers don't like to talk about this, but one set is bargain priced the other is full price for the same works, the same interpretation on PI, the same sound quality.

I have both sets; no choices need be made. :) They are both very good. The Trio 1790 set uses harpsichord for the keyboard part when it is appropriate while the van Sweiten use fortepiano throughout. So if you don't like harpsichord the choice becomes easier. While if you don't like fortepiano, there's no hope for you... ;D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on November 01, 2010, 06:37:05 AM

Quote from: DavidW on November 01, 2010, 06:25:02 AM
Well I don't know Van Swieten Trio is just as good and has the benefit of having the entire set on my shelf! :D Plus if I had to choose today, I know gmgers don't like to talk about this, but one set is bargain priced the other is full price for the same works, the same interpretation on PI, the same sound quality.

I won't quibble with you about the Van Swieten recordings, I also have their complete set, but the Trio 1790 is worth hearing, too (at least in my opinion), for those opus numbers that are personal favorites, and it is an easy matter to find these recordings from sellers on Amazon for around $10 or even less.

But, the main thing I find of interest are the Trio 1790 recordings by other (less well known) composers. These are well worth checking out.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on November 01, 2010, 06:39:23 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 01, 2010, 06:27:28 AM
...So if you don't like harpsichord the choice becomes easier. While if you don't like fortepiano, there's no hope for you... ;D

oh, but there is: hhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm-here:

as deliciously non-PI as it gets; great music-making beyond questions of musical ideology.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4153AVQ5S5L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
F. Haydn
Complete Piano Trios
Beaux Arts Trio
Philips (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000041LO?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0000041LO)

I like them rather better than Haydn Trio Eisenstadt, although they, too, are fine.
(Swieten, of course, is also in my collection; I go both ways, after all, when it comes to PI.)

[Don't quote that out of context, if you please.]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on November 01, 2010, 06:43:24 AM

That is a great set Jens! I love it! :) But I wish that Pentatone would remaster the entire box and not just one disc. That would be awesome. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 01, 2010, 06:56:55 AM

Quote from: Leon on November 01, 2010, 06:37:05 AM

But, the main thing I find of interest are the Trio 1790 recordings by other (less well known) composers. These are well worth checking out.

Yes, I have the Dussek also (he is one of my favorites) and the CPE Bach. I like their work well enough to look for them regularly. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 01, 2010, 06:58:42 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on November 01, 2010, 06:39:23 AM
oh, but there is: hhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm-here:

as deliciously non-PI as it gets; great music-making beyond questions of musical ideology.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4153AVQ5S5L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
F. Haydn
Complete Piano Trios
Beaux Arts Trio
Philips (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000041LO?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0000041LO)

I like them rather better than Haydn Trio Eisenstadt, although they, too, are fine.
(Swieten, of course, is also in my collection; I go both ways, after all, when it comes to PI.)

[Don't quote that out of context, if you please.]

No, you're secret is safe with me. Anyway, I like the Beaux Arts a lot. They were my introduction to these works and this is a great set for the non-PI folks out there. You won't get any argument from me! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on November 01, 2010, 11:23:10 PM

Quote from: Bogey on September 17, 2010, 08:26:34 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51h%2BUjl4XBL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Grabbed this one tonight....did not even know he wrote organ concertos.

Koopman has just recorded this pieces for a 2nd time! :)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0608917239027.jpg)

H.18, nrs. 1, 2 & 6

At jpc (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Joseph-Haydn-Orgelkonzerte-H-18-Nr-1-26/hnum/5719792)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 02, 2010, 06:57:53 AM

London Symphonies w/ Marc Minkowski & Les Musiciens du Louvre, recorded in 2009 (Vienna) - starting my second listening to this new release and a recent acquisition.

The recordings were done 'live' but there is barely a peep from the audience and no applause (if that's important to you?) - the engineering by Naive is superb. This is a period instrument group and the sound and performances are spectacular, and w/ a few surprises - :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnLondowMinkowski/1069854769_dV7Sv-O.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 02, 2010, 07:04:01 AM

Quote from: SonicMan on November 02, 2010, 06:57:53 AM
London Symphonies w/ Marc Minkowski & Les Musiciens du Louvre, recorded in 2009 (Vienna) - starting my second listening to this new release and a recent acquisition.

The recordings were done 'live' but there is barely a peep from the audience and no applause (if that's important to you?) - the engineering by Naive is superb. This is a period instrument group and the sound and performances are spectacular, and w/ a few surprises - :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnLondowMinkowski/1069854769_dV7Sv-O.jpg)

Ha, thought you might like that! I enjoyed it a lot, I like the emphasis in the recording on such frequently undervalued instruments as the timpani. 100 & 103 are my favorites in the box, but there is none that I dislike. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on November 03, 2010, 08:29:51 PM

I went on an Op.76 sample hunt, looking for my next wife.

Honestly, the Buchbergers in Op.76 sound like they rock! I don't hear anything to complain about (what wiiiill I do???). They really sound like they're digging in here.

The Lindsays, too, were pretty eye poppin in the samples. Any trepidation here has vanished.

There were no samples for the Takacs(?). I am concerned, hearing there may be upper glare in their performance/or recording. Does no one have them here?? Maybe I'm letting that Decca logo color my thoughts?

I thought the Tokyo were very polished indeed, but there might have been some high end thing in the recording. Also, they didn't seem to dig in very much, though, I did hear some burnished cello. Still, probably not up to the very highest standards.

I will be making a decision soon.

Meaning, I'll probably have to get everything. ::)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on November 04, 2010, 03:37:50 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on November 03, 2010, 08:29:51 PM

There were no samples for the Takacs(?). I am concerned, hearing there may be upper glare in their performance/or recording. Does no one have them here??

I do...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on November 07, 2010, 11:13:17 AM

Haydn fans, would it be right to say that the Hoboken catalogue does not have the order right when it comes to the piano trios?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 07, 2010, 11:17:02 AM

Quote from: DavidW on November 07, 2010, 11:13:17 AM
Haydn fans, would it be right to say that the Hoboken catalogue does not have the order right when it comes to the piano trios?

Not remotely close. As a quick example, 6, 7 & 8 are from the mid 1780's, while 36, 37 & 38 are from the early 1760's... :) I'll post a list in a little bit. ;)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Anton Steck (Violin) \ Robert Hill (Pianoforte) - D 934 Fantasia in C for Violin & Pianoforte

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on November 07, 2010, 11:20:08 AM

Crap! That is what I was afraid of! I feel like I should put a composition date in my mp3 tags for clarity.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 07, 2010, 11:23:16 AM

Quote from: DavidW on November 07, 2010, 11:20:08 AM
Crap! That is what I was afraid of! I feel like I should put a composition date in my mp3 tags for clarity.

That, or alternatively you can call them #1, #2 etc... :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Anton Steck (Violin) \ Robert Hill (Pianoforte) - D 934 Fantasia in C for Violin & Pianoforte

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on November 07, 2010, 11:25:21 AM

yeah that would be simpler. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 07, 2010, 11:27:05 AM

These are laid out that way. I haven't had time to edit this data yet, I can't even remember where I stole it. But I did compare with my books, and it seems correct enough. It'll save some typing.

* No. 1 in F major, Hoboken 15/37
* No. 2 in C major, Hoboken 15/C1
* No. 3 in G major, Hoboken 14/6
* No. 4 in F major, Hoboken 15/39
* No. 5 in G minor, Hoboken 15/1
* No. 6 in F major, Hoboken 15/40 (exists with a different slow movement as the piano concerto Hob. 18/7)
* No. 7 in G major, Hoboken 15/41
* No. 8 Hoboken 15/33 (lost)
* No. 9 Hoboken 15/D1 (lost)
* No. 10 in A major, Hoboken 15/35
* No. 11 in E major, Hoboken 15/34
* No. 12 in E flat major, Hoboken 15/36
* No. 13 in B flat major, Hoboken 15/38
* No. 14 in F minor, Hoboken 15/f1
* No. 15 in D major, Hoboken 15/deest
* No. 16 in C major, Hoboken 14/C1
* No. 17 in F major, Hoboken 15/2

Later trios
* No. 18 in G major, Hoboken 15/5 (1784)
* No. 19 in F major, Hoboken 15/6 (1784)
* No. 20 in D major, Hoboken 15/7 (1784)
* No. 21 in B flat major, Hoboken 15/8 (1784)
* No. 22 in A major, Hoboken 15/9 (1785)
* No. 23 in E flat major, Hoboken 15/10 (1785)
* No. 24 in E flat major, Hoboken 15/11 (1788)
* No. 25 in E minor, Hoboken 15/12 (1788)
* No. 26 in C minor, Hoboken 15/13 (1789)
* No. 27 in A flat major, Hoboken 15/14 (1790)
* No. 28 in D major, Hoboken 15/16 (1790)
* No. 29 in G major, Hoboken 15/15 (1790)
* No. 30 in F major, Hoboken 15/17 (1790)
* No. 31 in G major, Hoboken 15/32 (1792)

Three trios (H. 18-20) dedicated to Princess Maria Theresa, wife of Prince Anton Esterházy:
* No. 32 in A major, Hoboken 15/18 (1793)
* No. 33 in G minor, Hoboken 15/19 (1793)
* No. 34 in B flat major, Hoboken 15/20 (1794)

Three trios (H. 21-23) dedicated to Princess Maria Josepha, wife of Prince Nicholas Esterházy:
* No. 35 in C major, Hoboken 15/21 (1794)
* No. 36 in E flat major, Hoboken 15/22 (1794)
* No. 37 in D minor, Hoboken 15/23 (1794)

Three trios (H. 24-26) dedicated to Rebecca Schroeter:
* No. 38 in D major, Hoboken 15/24 (1795)
* No. 39 in G major, Hoboken 15/25 (1795) "Gypsy"
* No. 40 in F sharp minor, Hoboken 15/26 (1795)

Two standalone trios (H. 31,30):
* No. 41 in E flat minor, Hoboken 15/31 (1797)
* No. 42 in E flat major, Hoboken 15/30 (1797)

Three trios (H. 27-29) dedicated to Theresa Jansen:
* No. 43 in C major, Hoboken 15/27 (1797)
* No. 44 in E major, Hoboken 15/28 (1797)
* No. 45 in E flat major, Hoboken 15/29 (1797)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Anton Steck (Violin) \ Robert Hill (Pianoforte) - D 934 Fantasia in C for Violin & Pianoforte

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on November 07, 2010, 11:31:20 AM

I didn't realize that the trios had so much late paris/london era emphasis. That is like more than half of them!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 07, 2010, 11:46:02 AM

Quote from: DavidW on November 07, 2010, 11:31:20 AM
I didn't realize that the trios had so much late paris/london era emphasis. That is like more than half of them!

Yeah, he like started them early, then laid off for a long time, and then started back with a vengeance. It's true the early ones are piano sonatas with help form the strings. The later ones aren't though, even though he still billed them as such. The strings are pretty much obbligato. I like 'em. Say, don't you have a disk by the Bartolomeo Trio with some late trios on it? Thought you did... :-\

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Anton Steck (Violin) \ Robert Hill (Pianoforte) - D 934 Fantasia in C for Violin & Pianoforte

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on November 07, 2010, 11:49:56 AM

I have Levin and friends, that must be what you're thinking of. I also have some random cd of Trio 1790 (I think! I might have sold it)

and then the Beaux Arts Trio and the van Swieten Trio box sets. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on November 07, 2010, 11:51:39 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 07, 2010, 11:46:02 AM
It's true the early ones are piano sonatas with help form the strings. The later ones aren't though, even though he still billed them as such. The strings are pretty much obbligato.

haha the early ones: I'll play the piano, you putzes just strum along in the background. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on November 08, 2010, 09:51:59 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on November 05, 2010, 08:43:11 AM
oh, please do tell!
Is there anything particular about the Tackacs Op.76,

totally out of order, indeed. but i'm in the mood for haydn now, anyway... as i have to race to meet a few deadlines... so i'll put it on & see if i find anything superb in it. but no time for comparisons, i'm afraid.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on November 08, 2010, 10:38:37 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on November 08, 2010, 09:51:59 AM
see if i find anything superb in it. but no time for comparisons, i'm afraid.

Yes please, thank you. That's all I'm looking for.

Cheers ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Al Moritz on November 17, 2010, 07:02:41 PM

After having listened to -- among others -- so much Stockhausen, Bach and Maxwell-Davies over the last few years, I now have changed gears musically for a while. I have rediscovered Haydn. I had come to consider him a rather second-tier composer the last couple of years (hearing the music only on CD in the car without paying too much detailed attention is not the best thing with this composer), but recently things changed. Three weeks ago or so I heard part of one of his symphonies on the radio, and I decided, hey this is actually quite good. In some crazy mood I further decided that I would give one of his symphonies a try at home. So I opened my Dorati box, and on top after some time of abandon was CD 14, containing also symphony No 52. I was quite surprised how good that was. Not just powerful but also sophisticated. Then I went on to number 53, revisited some old favorites, # 30 and 32, and was hooked. During the last four weeks I have almost exclusively listened to Haydn symphonies, and now I have re-listened to about 15 symphonies, and explored about 10 new ones. The inventiveness of the music just does not cease to amaze me. I had listened to symphony 22 ("The Philosopher") a few times, and then I decided to go for the next one, # 23 -- and that again turned out to be a treasure trove of new ideas.

It is not just the overall invention of the musical material. My newfound appreciation stems from the fact that now I pay much more attention than ever before to the invention from one moment of the music to another. Often Haydn goes some place where you wonder, how does he get out of that again. But then he comes up with some great transition and further we go. What I had not realized as strongly before, Haydn often uses something that in Bruckner's music has been called entire "theme complexes", instead of "themes", although just themes are used as well. Haydn's music is also surprisingly polyphonic, even though of course he is no Bach.

The first mvmt. of symphony 88 features, at least in Dorati's hands, red-hot tension from the beginning of the development section to the end. It makes me wonder if the first mvmt. of Beethoven's Fifth is as absolutely original as it commonly is made out to be. The simple 7-note main motif on short notes, with two three-note repeats flanking a central higher pitch, clearly foreshadows the elementary simplicity of the four note motif in Beethoven, and the chain of ascending repeats of a four-note fragment (derived from the 7-note motif) farther in the exposition is a stunning parallel to the same kind of compositional element in the later Beethoven mvmt. Did Beethoven know that Haydn symphony and did he take it as a model? In some ways Beethoven may have been more evolutionary than revolutionary. (None of this is meant to disparage Beethoven; he is one of my three favorite composers.)

There is so much surprising music in these symphonies. The adagio of symphony 34 must be one of the most beautifully flowing and attractively structured ones that I know. It also sounds less "typically Haydn". I like to think that it might be a great piece to play as 'mystery music' on a classical station, playing it every two hours for example, without mentioning what it is, and then have curious and intrigued listeners call in. It might turn into quite a sensation.

Movements that I found boring now aren't anymore. There is only one exception, from about 1.5 to 3.5 min. in the slow mvmt. of symphony 82, where he simply gets stuck around the same thing over and over again. A rare lapse of judgment in my book -- even though overall I appreciate that mvmt. more than before, and it contains a few terrific ideas. The first and last mvmts. of the same symphony are incredibly tight and varied, however.

I have now decided that Haydn is a first-rate composer after all. His music with its constant freshness of invention has become for me an Immense source of joy.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on November 18, 2010, 12:38:08 AM

Quote from: Al Moritz on November 17, 2010, 07:02:41 PM

I have now decided that Haydn is a first-rate composer after all.

Haydn, surely, is very appreciative of this.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 18, 2010, 03:57:57 AM

Quote from: Al Moritz on November 17, 2010, 07:02:41 PM
After having listened to -- among others -- so much Stockhausen, Bach and Maxwell-Davies over the last few years, I now have changed gears musically for a while. I have rediscovered Haydn. I had come to consider him a rather second-tier composer the last couple of years (hearing the music only on CD in the car without paying too much detailed attention is not the best thing with this composer), but recently things changed. Three weeks ago or so I heard part of one of his symphonies on the radio, and I decided, hey this is actually quite good. In some crazy mood I further decided that I would give one of his symphonies a try at home. So I opened my Dorati box, and on top after some time of abandon was CD 14, containing also symphony No 52. I was quite surprised how good that was. Not just powerful but also sophisticated. Then I went on to number 53, revisited some old favorites, # 30 and 32, and was hooked. During the last four weeks I have almost exclusively listened to Haydn symphonies, and now I have re-listened to about 15 symphonies, and explored about 10 new ones. The inventiveness of the music just does not cease to amaze me. I had listened to symphony 22 ("The Philosopher") a few times, and then I decided to go for the next one, # 23 -- and that again turned out to be a treasure trove of new ideas.

It is not just the overall invention of the musical material. My newfound appreciation stems from the fact that now I pay much more attention than ever before to the invention from one moment of the music to another. Often Haydn goes some place where you wonder, how does he get out of that again. But then he comes up with some great transition and further we go. What I had not realized as strongly before, Haydn often uses something that in Bruckner's music has been called entire "theme complexes", instead of "themes", although just themes are used as well. Haydn's music is also surprisingly polyphonic, even though of course he is no Bach.

The first mvmt. of symphony 88 features, at least in Dorati's hands, red-hot tension from the beginning of the development section to the end. It makes me wonder if the first mvmt. of Beethoven's Fifth is as absolutely original as it commonly is made out to be. The simple 7-note main motif on short notes, with two three-note repeats flanking a central higher pitch, clearly foreshadows the elementary simplicity of the four note motif in Beethoven, and the chain of ascending repeats of a four-note fragment (derived from the 7-note motif) farther in the exposition is a stunning parallel to the same kind of compositional element in the later Beethoven mvmt. Did Beethoven know that Haydn symphony and did he take it as a model? In some ways Beethoven may have been more evolutionary than revolutionary. (None of this is meant to disparage Beethoven; he is one of my three favorite composers.)

There is so much surprising music in these symphonies. The adagio of symphony 34 must be one of the most beautifully flowing and attractively structured ones that I know. It also sounds less "typically Haydn". I like to think that it might be a great piece to play as 'mystery music' on a classical station, playing it every two hours for example, without mentioning what it is, and then have curious and intrigued listeners call in. It might turn into quite a sensation.

Movements that I found boring now aren't anymore. There is only one exception, from about 1.5 to 3.5 min. in the slow mvmt. of symphony 82, where he simply gets stuck around the same thing over and over again. A rare lapse of judgment in my book -- even though overall I appreciate that mvmt. more than before, and it contains a few terrific ideas. The first and last mvmts. of the same symphony are incredibly tight and varied, however.

I have now decided that Haydn is a first-rate composer after all. His music with its constant freshness of invention has become for me an Immense source of joy.

Thanks for sharing your new insights and opinions about Haydn, Al Moritz. This kind of finds are always exciting and I am sure this is only the tip of the iceberg. You have a whole universe to discover in Haydn: his piano sonatas, string quartets, piano trios, concertos, etc. Congratulations! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 18, 2010, 04:32:57 AM

Al,
Thanks for your great post. Your experience is one that could be shared by a lot of people who wrote Haydn off back before they had the experience to get a grip on what he was doing. To paraphrase Mark Twain; when I was young, my father was an idiot. Then the older I got, the smarter he became. :)

In any case, it was nice hearing from you again, even if you hadn't been here to praise my favorite composer. It's been too long. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on November 18, 2010, 04:57:56 AM

Welcome back, Al! Your coming back --- and with such a great post no less --- is an event to be celebrated! With a Hornsignal, of course!

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 18, 2010, 04:32:57 AM
when I was young, my father was an idiot. Then the older I got, the smarter he became. :)

Excellent, Gurn. 8)

BTW, may I ask how old is your son? ;D :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 18, 2010, 05:34:04 AM

Quote from: Florestan on November 18, 2010, 04:57:56 AM
Welcome back, Al! Your coming back --- and with such a great post no less --- is an event to be celebrated! With a Hornsignal, of course!
Excellent, Gurn. 8)

BTW, may I ask how old is your son? ;D :P

38 now. :) Apparently I am about peaked out! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Al Moritz on November 18, 2010, 05:51:27 PM

Thank you guys for the welcome back. I thought it might be nice to share my enthusiasm here.

Yes, I know one or two masses, the Stabat Mater and the string quartets op. 74 and 76. I'll have to revisit these too.

Tonight I was listening to symphony # 96 and I marveled at the complexity and the genius of it all. Weird that I had heard this music so many times and liked it, but never really closely listened to it as I now do.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 18, 2010, 06:06:54 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 18, 2010, 05:34:04 AM
38 now. :) Apparently I am about peaked out! :D

Our son just turned 37 y/o in August! Just hard to believe - but I love that Mark Twain comment (and of course numerous others from this great American author & humorist) - probably in the late '80s or early '90s, we saw Hal Holbrook's Mark Twain performance in our city - he was just wonderful in that role (and of course used that line) - a fine remembrance - :)

(http://www.cpa.psu.edu/previews/pv-07-04/pv-07-04-images/pvmain-twain2.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 18, 2010, 06:19:08 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on November 18, 2010, 06:06:54 PM
Our son just turned 37 y/o in August! Just hard to believe - but I love that Mark Twain comment (and of course numerous others from this great American author & humorist) - probably in the late '80s or early '90s, we saw Hal Holbrook's Mark Twain performance in our city - he was just wonderful in that role (and of course used that line) - a fine remembrance - :)

(http://www.cpa.psu.edu/previews/pv-07-04/pv-07-04-images/pvmain-twain2.jpg)

Dave, I almost hate to reveal how long I've known Holbrook/Twain, but he started doing that one-man show way back in the late 1960's. The local university in my home town sponsored a series of arts shows for years, and the very first year that he did that show they brought it to Burlington and I went to see it. I was already a Twain fan, but since then I've been a fan for life!

Thread duty:

Haydn would have liked Twain too... :)

Stay in touch, Al. We particularly want to hear how you feel about the string quartets now from this perspective. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on November 19, 2010, 08:53:08 AM

1) To DavidW, and anyone else in the anti-samples camp,... ok, in this case, I was truly deceived by my own good nature.

2) I have determined that the Buchbergers are willful to the point of me wishing that they should be formally censored.

I've been looking for "MY" Op.76, and I mean that in the me-me-me-est. So, lately, I went through the amazon "haydn quartet 76" search, and, the Buchbergers (which, you can read afore, that I am not fond of them) had quite a positive review, and the samples seemed to reveal that they might just have learned a thing and calmed their wildman ways.

I directed my assistant to begin comparing before I got back from work. As I opened the door, I heared the whiffs coming from the speakers upstairs (along with a pot of broccoli cooking,...eeeeewwwww :-\). My first thoughts were:

a) I suppose my assistant was in the midst of comparing Haydn

b) I thought I was hearing a quite thin sound

c) I couldn't place the music

As it turned out, it was the Minuet of the "Emperor", not something I've studied. Then came the Finale, which I am more familiar with. And,...mmm,...I thought it sucked. Too rabid, thin sound, no ambience.

ok, let's just go straight to the No.4, "Sunrise". By the time I got to this most cherished of Minuets, I was yelling at the speakers, and my assistant had hid behind the couch, waiting for equipment to learn to fly. No grace, no sound, just rabid competition-styled speed. Add to this the sound of their just-ain't-right intruments, the boxy room,...

ok, they PLAY ok,...but,...

ok, ok,... some I go to No.1. Actually, No.1 is very successful indeed. Speed wise, and style wise, there appears there is nothing anyone can do with this quartet. All compares play this quartet pretty well the same.

Nos.2-3: "Fifths" & "Emperor"
The "Fifths",...ok, positives first. The slow mvmt is probably the most successful example of what the Buchberger do. I won't explain, but, if you have, just listen, and see. However, the "witch's menuet" is taken waaay too fast to the point of ridicule, and the first mvmt is anger inducing. Ultimately, this is the Buchberger acting like TSA Agents.

And, the slightest compare of the "Emperor" with, say, Teldec ABQ, yields to revelations untold. Night and day, black and white.

I WILL NOT even bother listening to Nos.5-6 (I can see by the timings that the famous Largo is taken too quick, like the confusing ABQ take). I stand with my face like flint against the Buchberger. If you have anything nice to say about them, I will conclude you in madness!

I have now tried three sets by this group, and I certainly feel like I stepped into it on this last one. I will tirelessly proclaim AGAINST the Buchbergers from this point on, so, bring it if it is to be brought. For those of you who haaave received pleasure from this group, ok, I'm not going to argue Op.20, but, here in Op.76, the height of High Classicism, I don't think we should tolerate such willfulness.

The instruments, the playing choices, the clinical sound,... all and more was done on purpose!, and the people responsible wanted it to sound this way, so, my charges of willfulness are surely not my own. Down Satan! >:D

Further ranting upon request.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on November 19, 2010, 02:49:41 PM

I see SonicMan Dave reading my post. I wonder how this will go?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 19, 2010, 03:06:11 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on November 19, 2010, 02:49:41 PM
I see SonicMan Dave reading my post. I wonder how this will go?

Snyprrr - LOL - ;D So you're tracking those who may be currently reading your posts! :D

Actually, I had another question regarding the many previous posts on the tuning of A (i.e. 440 Hz or less) - my wife, Susan (Harpo here) is an excellent musician who has a lot of instruments, many strings - she uses an electronic tuner that can detect the EXACT vibration rate of the strings (harps, guitars, etc.) - of course, we all know these are ubiquitous devices these days that many use, including the professionals - she just had her piano tuned by a gal w/ a rolling cart full of electronic tuning equipment.

Now back in the 18th & early 19th century, how were these tuning frequencies determined? Of course, the obvious answer is the 'human ear' but who is to say that someone then w/ perfect pitch would pick the A string on a violin to be 440 Hz or less? And if two individuals w/ so-called perfect pitch tuned the same string would the frequencies be the same. My botton line is that back then the A pitch was certainly lower but to try to come up w/ an exact number is a little irrational since the 'equipment' of the time was the human ear which is quite good but does not have a scale protruding from it to tell the EXACT Hz of a pitch. But, hey just a thought to think about. :)

P.S. - attached a short discussion on tuning history for those interested - :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on November 19, 2010, 03:31:17 PM

Dave, I believe that the tuning fork was invented in the early 18th century, and used for tuning.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scarpia on November 19, 2010, 03:44:37 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on November 19, 2010, 03:06:11 PM
Snyprrr - LOL - ;D So you're tracking those who may be currently reading your posts! :D

Actually, I had another question regarding the many previous posts on the tuning of A (i.e. 440 Hz or less) - my wife, Susan (Harpo here) is an excellent musician who has a lot of instruments, many strings - she uses an electronic tuner that can detect the EXACT vibration rate of the strings (harps, guitars, etc.) - of course, we all know these are ubiquitous devices these days that many use, including the professionals - she just had her piano tuned by a gal w/ a rolling cart full of electronic tuning equipment.

Now back in the 18th & early 19th century, how were these tuning frequencies determined? Of course, the obvious answer is the 'human ear' but who is to say that someone then w/ perfect pitch would pick the A string on a violin to be 440 Hz or less? And if two individuals w/ so-called perfect pitch tuned the same string would the frequencies be the same. My botton line is that back then the A pitch was certainly lower but to try to come up w/ an exact number is a little irrational since the 'equipment' of the time was the human ear which is quite good but does not have a scale protruding from it to tell the EXACT Hz of a pitch. But, hey just a thought to think about. :)

A tuning fork is probably not of much help, because they did not have precise metal machining equipment and probably could not manufacturer a turning fork that would vibrate at a pre-determined frequency. It would have to be tuned like any other instrument.

Although it does not give a numerical value of the frequency you can use an organ pipe of defined length to determine a standard pitch. This defines the de-facto tuning for church music, and still does when using the old organs.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on November 19, 2010, 03:59:20 PM

Quote from: Scarpia on November 19, 2010, 03:44:37 PM
A tuning fork is probably not of much help, because they did not have precise metal machining equipment and probably could not manufacturer a turning fork that would vibrate at a pre-determined frequency.

Yet most of the tuning forks vibrated at 422-425 Hz while the organ tuning was all over the place from 300-470.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on November 19, 2010, 05:44:57 PM

TOPIC ALERT!!!

[/size]

TOPIC ALERT!!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on November 20, 2010, 03:30:26 AM

Looks like the topmost TOPIC ALERT is first past the pike ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on November 24, 2010, 08:49:18 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on November 08, 2010, 09:51:59 AM
totally out of order, indeed. but i'm in the mood for haydn now, anyway... as i have to race to meet a few deadlines... so i'll put it on & see if i find anything superb in it. but no time for comparisons, i'm afraid.

I can't take the suspense any more!! :-* :-* Is there a verdict?!! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 27, 2010, 08:58:14 AM

Enjoying two discs worth of Haydn this morning....

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/f6/8b/15a7c0a398a0c0b6da35f110.L._AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on November 27, 2010, 10:16:28 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on November 24, 2010, 08:49:18 AM
I can't take the suspense any more!! :-* :-* Is there a verdict?!! ;D

The fact that there isn't a verdict is probably a verdict. Very nice, of course... but didn't really bowl me over. I hope that satiates the suspense until I actually *do* get around to op.76. :-)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Al Moritz on December 05, 2010, 05:41:18 PM

I have listened to the splendid symphonies # 46 and 47, and found them really experimental sounding. It is amazing how Haydn could create out of just that four-bar, 6 second, opening motif with a slightly strange ending:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._46_(Haydn)

an exposition (which is repeated) of one and a half minutes.

***

In terms of listening appeal, the Haydn symphonies are often not quite as accessible and perhaps memorable on first encounter as, say, a Beethoven symphony. However, they grow upon repeated listening. In that respect, they remind me more of string quartets, also Beethoven string quartets. In any case, so much great music there in this collection of symphonies, most of which is virtually never performed. Modern music is not the only music that encounters that fate, apparently.

It is now clear to me that, had I too choose for a desert island between Beethoven's 9 symphonies or Haydn's 104 symphonies, I would choose the latter. Granted, Haydn hasn't written any instrumental work as grand as Beethoven's Third or Ninth, but the sheer amount of musical inventions in the 104 symphonies is just staggering -- not surprising, given this number of symphonies, and consistent input of genius.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Al Moritz on December 05, 2010, 06:13:25 PM

Today was a great Haydn day. I am still addicted to the symphonies, which still, after 7 (?) weeks are virtually my sole listening occupation at home.

Tried # 90 and loved it, and continued with # 45 (Farewell) which has grown on me tremendously. Then # 48, an old favorite of mine, which was confirmed today. Why is this colorful symphony not a fixture in the concert repertoire? This was followed by # 49, "La Passione" another immensely attractive work. Closed the session with a repeat of # 90 which is now a new favorite of mine. The opening movmt. is so full of ideas and dense energy, and complex as well, even though it appears to be built on just a few basic motifs. The slow mvmt. features beautiful variations and unexpected surprises, and the minuet must be one of Haydns best, most energetic and complex ones. The finale is one of the most irresistible examples of the mix of quickfooted and rough, forward pressing energy which is Haydn excels in.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on December 08, 2010, 06:21:51 AM

Hello Al,

Haydn is my favourite composer too.

Since you are in the S&D period right now, have you listened to the finale of No 44? I find it to be quite extraordinary ..... probably the "angriest" music written at the time (apart from the 1st movement of No 45). You seem to be listening to the Dorati set, but unfortunately this version of 44 is rather poor. Far too slow and deliberate. The HIP performances are much better. I can email you a MP3 file attachment if you can send me an address or suggest a way of doing it. I looked at GMG PM, but I could not find a way to attach a file .....

For symphony No 90, no-one has performed it better than Dorati. I always return to this wonderful version ....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on December 08, 2010, 06:39:31 AM

Hoy, Al! Haven't seen you about in an age!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Al Moritz on December 21, 2010, 08:21:23 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 08, 2010, 06:39:31 AM
Hoy, Al! Haven't seen you about in an age!

I know. Hi Karl!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Al Moritz on December 21, 2010, 08:23:53 AM

Alkan,

Thanks for your comments. So which performance would you recommend for # 44?

A new favorite is now symphony # 42. It appears to be the first Haydn symphony where both the first and the slow movement are really expansive, and thus it seems a turning point in the composer's symphonic career. Everything flows into each other so well in the first mvmt., and the slow mvmt. is just exquisite and gorgeous. Captivating is also that the finale most of the time is rather subdued, yet with powerful undercurrents, and then goes full throttle in just the few last measures.

While I could imagine that symphony # 44 could have been done better than Dorati does (it is questionable if the final mvmt. is really 'presto' in his hands), symphony # 42 is done incredibly well by Dorati. Yes, I could imagine it done differently, but not substantially better.

Symphony # 54 is also moving up for me as a composition, repeated listening makes it more and more interesting.

Recent revisiting of # 51 thru 53 was rewarding as well.

Interesting to make comparisons with other music of the time period, especially when done 'blindly', i.e. without knowing in advance who the composer is. Ten days ago I tuned into the slow movement of a symphony of the time period and listened to the end. Sophisticated modulations and injection of ideas that would seem on the level of genius suggested a great composer, but the whole thing just didn't have the sparkle and freshness that I would associate with Haydn. I would have been disappointed had it have been him. Turns out, it was symphony # 33 by Mozart. Again my opinion about Mozart was fortified. A great composer but not as great as he is often made out to be. He has produced some works that are truly transcending, but not everything he wrote is 'gold from the heavens'.

A few days ago I tuned into just the finale of another symphony. It seemed really well and competently composed, but rather linearly exploring just one or two ideas without, as so often happens with Haydn, any surprising injection of phrases that seem entirely new ideas, even if they are 'just' variations on the previously exposed basic material. Therefore I was quite confident that this wasn't Haydn either, and it wasn't. It was Vanhal.

Given these experiences, I believe I am starting to get more of a grip on what Haydn's genius is all about.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on December 21, 2010, 09:08:07 AM

Hey, Al--great to see you!

Haydn's been my main squeeze this year, too, starting with Jacobs's splendid Creation recording, then the Quatuor Mosaïques quartet recordings, then Wispelwey's cello ctos, Brautigam's piano ctos, and finally plumped for Brüggen's 13 disc set of symphonies. After the dust settled, it's the quartets that I think will give me the most lasting pleasure.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on December 23, 2010, 06:44:46 PM

Lindsay Op.76 (rec. 1998)

The wait is over! I do believe I've got my keeper here. Right now I've only got 1-3, but No.1 comes off very well indeed. Technically, in No.1, absolutely nothing is out of the ordinary as compares to pretty much anyone else, except for in the slow mvmt, where they take about 1min. longer than anyone I'm comparing to (7 compares). In the Menuet & Finale, the Lindsays are equal to anyone, and carry an extra dimension of enthusiasm that can be heard.

Because of the deeply felt slow mvmt, the Lindsays move ahead of the ABQ and the Auryn in this quartet. The Lindsays here have shown me, I believe, what it means to be invisible. Though I haven't compared the last group on the list (Ysaye, whom some say is better than Lindsays here, others say otherwise), I'm going to just give the Palm to the Lindsays here: no other group that I've heard has played this piece so invisibly. Bravo!

No.2, the 'Fifths', starts off blasting out of the gate! Though no quicker than any other version, it seems, the Lindsays enthusiasm renders the proceedings at almost breakneck speed (I'm over stating) which is very refreshing. My friend did note that others play it more perfectly (ABQ & Auryn), and yes, here the Lindsays are thrillingly 'live' sounding,... human,... and yet I hear nothing overt,... just happy joy.

I think they play the slow mvmt too fast, about a minute quicker than most, robbing this static dream of its melancoly. However, it is still played exquisitely nonetheless.

The 'witch's menuet' isn't as heavy as the heaviest, but the Lindsays imbue it with their own charm, The Finale is taken with the requisite amount of humor in the sliding notes.

I'll admit to not paying attention during No.3, the 'Emperor', but I did make not of the Finale, in which the Lindsays may trump the usual suspects.

Hopefully Vol.II will arrive shortly, as I have Great Expectations. Honestly, I can't recall when last a recording just wiped up previous memories like the Lindsay have done here. Perhaps it is that I've heard more compares of Op.76 than others. Frankly, no one beats their enthusiasm. Obviously, the ABQ will have perfect ensemble and intonation, as do the Auryn, but the Lindsays are really right there too, and I want to minimize any potential for criticism. That my friend noticed that the ABQ might be more 'perfect' might say something, but I want you to be confident here. If...if...if there are any 'human' things in the Lindsays performance, I willingly remain blind to them.

All I can say is that from the first note, I was taken by their joy. Eventually I may sample the Ysaye, but I certainly can't see them matching the Lindsays in sheer pluck,... and joy. And,...for $5,...pshawww!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 23, 2010, 06:56:51 PM

Thanks for the review, Snipper. Very interesting. The only Lindsay's Haydn that I have is their Op 50, which I recall liking quite a lot. I'm not unduly surprised that you found this a good version. Even though I clearly don't know what exactly you are looking for, I'm pleased for you that you've found it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 23, 2010, 06:57:22 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on December 23, 2010, 06:44:46 PM
Lindsay Op.76 (rec. 1998)

That's all what I needed to know about this post... ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 24, 2010, 04:56:57 AM

Two enticing future releases (or re-releases):

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ZU6S7X6QL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Haydn - Songs & Cantatas. Brilliant Classics (1 CD, February 2011). Emma Kirkby, soprano; Marcia Hadjimarkos, fortepiano. Includes Arianna a Naxos; The Wanderer; Piercing Eyes; The Spirit's Song; Fidelity; O Tuneful Voice; A Pastoral Song; Recollection; The Battle of the Nile; She never told her love.

(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_300/australianeloquence4800388.jpg)

Haydn's Music For England (first release on CD). Australian Eloquence (2 CD, February 2011). Judith Nelson (soprano) & Paul Elliott (tenor); The Academy of Ancient Music, Christopher Hogwood. Includes Scottish Songs (selection); Piano Trio No. 32 in A major, Hob.XV:18; String Quartet, Op. 71 No. 3 in E flat major; The Lady's Looking-Glass, Hob.31c:17; London Trio II, Hob.IV:2 in G major; A Pastoral Song, Hob, XXVIa:27;The Mermaid's Song, Hob. XXVIa:25; Lord Cathcart's Welcome Home; London Trio III, Hob.IV:3 in G major; O Tuneful Voice, Hob. XXVIa:42; Symphony No. 94 in G Major 'Surprise'.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 24, 2010, 06:41:27 AM

OK, I'll take them both then. :)

Kirkby is Kirkby, and I rather fancy her efforts especially in Haydn. Hadjimarkos is quite special in Haydn too. I have a disk of her on Zig-Zag playing several sonatas the clavichord which has become one of my favorites. Looks like win-win there, even though I have each of these songs a dozen times already. :)

Much the same with the Hogwood disk. It looks like it could represent an evening's concert worth the way concerts were put together in those days. Hard to beat that for a pleasant evening in front of the old stereo... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Al Moritz on December 24, 2010, 04:14:45 PM

Quote from: DavidRoss on December 21, 2010, 09:08:07 AM
Hey, Al--great to see you!

Haydn's been my main squeeze this year, too, starting with Jacobs's splendid Creation recording, then the Quatuor Mosaïques quartet recordings, then Wispelwey's cello ctos, Brautigam's piano ctos, and finally plumped for Brüggen's 13 disc set of symphonies. After the dust settled, it's the quartets that I think will give me the most lasting pleasure.

Hi David, good to see you too, Merry Christmas! The string quartets are on my list, but currently I am incurably addicted to the symphonies.

I had forgotten to mention how expansive for its time symphony # 42 really is. In the first mvmt., exposition and repeat thereof take up 5 minutes of a total duration of 9.5 minutes. However, the exposition and repeat do not seem long at all, in fact it makes for a rather short five minutes, given how well and varied each section of the music flows into the next one. The slow mvmt. lasts close to 10 minutes, with a truly exquisite melody as material. Also here the flow is remarkable. At some points the music almost comes to a standstill among a moment of hesitation, only to lead to an effusive outpouring (using the first phrase of the gorgeous melody followed by repeat), after which the music holds in again. Yet eventually this is followed by yet another broad release. The trio in the third mvmt. is a rarity in that it uses the thematic material of the surrounding minuet, with an enchanting twist.

Today I revisited symphony 90. What a powerhouse! Music with balls.

This was followed by another listen to the stunning symphony 92. Like the preceding mvmts., the finale is fantastic. After the playful beginning the material forcefully compresses and energizes more and more, in a mixture of vortex and wildfire, only to then release into the second theme. The development section is able to sustain the established power.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Al Moritz on December 25, 2010, 02:11:56 PM

Quote from: Al Moritz on December 24, 2010, 04:14:45 PMToday I revisited symphony 90. What a powerhouse! Music with balls.

It is not all balls, however. The second theme of the first mvmt., and the variations in the flute in the latter part of the slow mvmt. are outspoken feminine. And then there is the cuddly gracefulness of the minuet's trio. Yet it is countered twice by gruff, energetic interjections by the lower strings. There appears to be some deliberate contrasting archetyping going on, in an artful way.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on December 25, 2010, 02:24:01 PM

Al, I have been enjoying each of your posts in this thread - I am envious of how you seem to be able to listen to Haydn with such objectivity, enthusiasm and with something of a clean slate to start from.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on December 25, 2010, 02:25:40 PM

Quote from: Al Moritz on December 21, 2010, 08:23:53 AM
Alkan,

Thanks for your comments. So which performance would you recommend for # 44?

Without a doubt, the version by Derek Solomons ... but it's OOP now. I can email an MP3 file to you if you like. Can I do this via GMG personal mail ?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 25, 2010, 02:56:44 PM

Quote from: alkan on December 25, 2010, 02:25:40 PM
Without a doubt, the version by Derek Solomons ... but it's OOP now. I can email an MP3 file to you if you like. Can I do this via GMG personal mail ?

No, the attachments are too big. You could send a link though. :)

BTW, totally agree with the Solomons choice. Not that others aren't pretty fine too, but that one has... IT. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on December 25, 2010, 03:00:45 PM

Well, a very nice surprise under the tree from my wife:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-oKqkjIeL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

The set did net me the Fischer symphony cycle that I have wanted for an age and there are the complete Baryton Trios that I also wanted (I only had four on the shelf). Any other highlights from this set that you are aware of? I learned from Gurn many moons ago not to write off less than famous performers (see Caspar da Salo Quartett for Haydn effort on the Pilz label), so time to see how many nuggets I can mine out of this brick.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 25, 2010, 03:16:44 PM

Quote from: Bogey on December 25, 2010, 03:00:45 PM
Well, a very nice surprise under the tree from my wife:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-oKqkjIeL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

The set did net me the Fischer symphony cycle that I have wanted for an age and there are the complete Baryton Trios that I also wanted (I only had four on the shelf). Any other highlights from this set that you are aware of? I learned from Gurn many moons ago not to write off less than famous performers (see Caspar da Salo Quartett for Haydn effort on the Pilz label), so time to see how many nuggets I can mine out of this brick.

Bill! Ha, that's an outstanding gift. Your wife is a peach! :)

Nuggets. Yes certainly. The piano trios and solo piano sets are as good as any out there, and better than many. The string quartets are controversial but never uninteresting. You will either love 'em or hate 'em. I think the Hob 14 divertimentos (I think they call them concertinos in here) are very nicely done too. Too many other highlights to enumerate. IIRC, at least one of the operas is very good, while a couple of others are not so much. Well, can't win 'em all. If you go look that set up on the Arkiv music web site, someone wrote a really nice review of nearly everything. I don't agree with it all, but he went to a lot of effort there, worth reading. :)

Merry Christmas, enjoy!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on December 25, 2010, 03:26:55 PM

Excellent! I will dig in soon. I just may enjoy the quartets seeing my favored are the Tátrai Quartet. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 25, 2010, 04:25:44 PM

Quote from: Bogey on December 25, 2010, 03:00:45 PM
Well, a very nice surprise under the tree from my wife:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-oKqkjIeL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

The set did net me the Fischer symphony cycle that I have wanted for an age and there are the complete Baryton Trios that I also wanted (I only had four on the shelf). Any other highlights from this set that you are aware of? I learned from Gurn many moons ago not to write off less than famous performers (see Caspar da Salo Quartett for Haydn effort on the Pilz label), so time to see how many nuggets I can mine out of this brick.

My, what an adorable and smart lady! You are a lucky man, Bogey.

I agree with Gurn; those piano trios are IMO the best option in the market; the works for solo keyboard (both sonatas and pieces like variations, divertimenti, etc.) are of very, very high level; the string quartets are not to my taste, but definitely the Buchbergers know what they are doing; the trios and other pieces for baryton are a sensational achievement which has not alternative version; the symphonies -although played on modern instruments- are generally very good... A whole world to discover.

Congratulations again! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on December 25, 2010, 04:30:11 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 25, 2010, 04:25:44 PM
My, what an adorable and smart lady! You are a lucky man, Bogey.

I agree with Gurn; those piano trios are IMO the best option in the market; the works for solo keyboard (both sonatas and pieces like variations, divertimenti, etc.) are of very, very high level; the string quartets are not to my taste, but definitely the Buchbergers know what they are doing; the trios and other pieces for baryton are a sensational achievement which has not alternative version; the symphonies -although played on modern instruments- are generally very good... A whole world to discover.

Congratulations again! :)

Thanks. What is nice is that my wife also thoroughly enjoys Haydn, so it will be a nice set to have to play throughout the house. Can you comment on the highlighted part of your post a bit more, Antoine?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 25, 2010, 05:04:12 PM

Quote from: Bogey on December 25, 2010, 04:30:11 PM

Thanks. What is nice is that my wife also thoroughly enjoys Haydn, so it will be a nice set to have to play throughout the house. Can you comment on the highlighted part of your post a bit more, Antoine?

The big box set includes not just trios, but also octets for baryton and even an additional disc of "rarities", with some pieces for solo baryton and duet. I think if you add up all the discs recorded on baryton on any label, they are not the half of the discs included in this set. IMO a real achievement for Brilliant Classics. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on December 25, 2010, 05:16:40 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 25, 2010, 05:04:12 PM
The big box set includes not just trios, but also octets for baryton and even an additional disc of "rarities", with some pieces for solo baryton and duet. I think if you add up all the discs recorded on baryton on any label, they are not the half of the discs included in this set. IMO a real achievement for Brilliant Classics. :)

Ah! Wonderful news!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 26, 2010, 06:19:01 AM

Bill - congrats on that BIG Haydn box - I own most of the discs in that collection as individual reincarnations - might take you the rest of the New Year to get through it but should be a joy for you & the LOYL (i.e. Love Of Your Life) - have a great holiday season - Dave :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on December 26, 2010, 06:21:18 AM

Quote from: SonicMan on December 26, 2010, 06:19:01 AM
Bill - congrats on that BIG Haydn box - I own most of the discs in that collection as individual reincarnations - might take you the rest of the New Year to get through it but should be a joy for you & the LOYL (i.e. Love Of Your Life) - have a great holiday season - Dave :D

How will the Haydn box be a joy for Bill's LP collection? ??? :D ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 26, 2010, 06:25:10 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on December 26, 2010, 06:21:18 AM
How will the Haydn box be a joy for Bill's LP collection? ??? :D ;)

He won't have to listen to them for a while.... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on December 26, 2010, 06:32:06 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 26, 2010, 06:25:10 AM
He won't have to listen to them for a while.... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on December 26, 2010, 07:48:56 AM

:D

I am currently in the market for a home device that transfers all my digital media to analogue! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 26, 2010, 07:52:51 AM

Quote from: Bogey on December 26, 2010, 07:48:56 AM
:D

I am currently in the market for a home device that transfers all my digital media to analogue! ;D

That's too easy... but do you really want DAA? ??? You're a sick and twisted man, Bill. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on December 26, 2010, 07:59:37 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 26, 2010, 07:52:51 AM
That's too easy... but do you really want DAA? ??? You're a sick and twisted man, Bill. :D

8)

I represent that remark. ;D

Bringing this over to the house:

Rolling out another disc from the "Brilliant" Haydn box set:

Haydn
Piano Concertos
Hob XVIII:11/Hob XVIII:4/Hob XVIII:3
Jolanda Violante fotepiano
L'Arte dell'Arco/Federico Guglielmo
Recorded 2008

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 26, 2010, 06:12:12 AM

Oh yes, Bill, that's another that I failed to mention. L'Arte dell'Arco are a great group. I have a bunch of their Tartini concertos that are super good. Anyway, those are nice versions of those concerti. :)

8)

The Hob XVIII:11 seemed a bit quick (8'35), or out of sync in the first movement. However, looking at my Pinnock (7'59) and Koopman (7'09 :o) efforts-both harpsichord, I guess it can be faster.

The Hob XVIII:3 was the highlight of th disc and I need to give it another whirl before reburying it in the box.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Al Moritz on December 26, 2010, 12:17:48 PM

Lethe,

thanks for your kind words.

Quote from: alkan on December 25, 2010, 02:25:40 PM
Without a doubt, the version by Derek Solomons ... but it's OOP now. I can email an MP3 file to you if you like. Can I do this via GMG personal mail ?

Alkan,

thanks for your offer of sending me the music. You can do this via yousendit.com (it is for free if you don't go for the premium options) to the email address under my profile.

According to this review:

http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/May%201984/33/754919/

it is a bit light sounding (One viola, one cello, one double bass? There would not be much for the musicians to depart from in the Farewell symphony!). I am apprehensive about that; I don't like light-weight Haydn, even though I may change my mind once I hear the recording. That is why I like Dorati's Haydn so much. It is gutsy and powerful, without being heavy and ponderous.

How are these?

Koopman:
http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Symphonies-Nos-44-45/dp/B000071WE7

Goodman:
http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Symphonies-42-44-Goodman/dp/B00006L3WD

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on December 26, 2010, 12:33:04 PM

Quote from: Bogey on December 26, 2010, 07:48:56 AM
:D

I am currently in the market for a home device that transfers all my digital media to analogue! ;D

Like a CD player, perhaps? ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 26, 2010, 02:04:32 PM

Quote from: Bogey on December 26, 2010, 07:48:56 AM
:D

I am currently in the market for a home device that transfers all my digital media to analogue! ;D

Bill - maybe you should consult Fred Flintstone? ;) ;D Dave

(http://bedrock.deadsquid.com/img/other/objects/record_player.jpg) (http://uploads.neatorama.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Fred-Flintstone-Barney-Rubble-Car.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on December 26, 2010, 03:25:03 PM

The phonograph looks familiar, but we have a full size car. ;D

(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSpifG0OlcmwStCrRh64jybZV7zbRNoMVUkLLBfqnKMo7cI79EdVJuxsMYf)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on December 26, 2010, 04:00:29 PM

Just finished spinning

Haydn
SQ Op.76 Nos. 1-3
Buchberger Quartet
Recorded 2008

I need to throw the The Quatuor Mosaïques set Sarge sent my way to get a feel for where this effort falls.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 26, 2010, 04:21:11 PM

Quote from: Bogey on December 26, 2010, 04:00:29 PM
Just finished spinning

Haydn SQ Op.76 Nos. 1-3 Buchberger Quartet Recorded 2008

I need to throw the The Quatuor Mosaïques set Sarge sent my way to get a feel for where this effort falls.

Bill - own both of these recordings, so will be interested in your comparison comments - seems that just one recording of these works is just not enough - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on December 26, 2010, 04:23:59 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on December 26, 2010, 04:21:11 PM
Bill - own both of these recordings, so will be interested in your comparison comments - seems that just one recording of these works is just not enough - Dave :)

I will try to get a comparison soon.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on December 26, 2010, 08:03:40 PM

Quote from: Bogey on December 26, 2010, 04:00:29 PM
Just finished spinning

Haydn
SQ Op.76 Nos. 1-3
Buchberger Quartet
Recorded 2008

I need to throw the The Quatuor Mosaïques set Sarge sent my way to get a feel for where this effort falls.

Check out my review of BB's 76 in the Haydn SQ Thread (one of the last posts of mine). One could start with the nuance-less beginning to the 'Sunrise', or the exaggerated tempos in fast mvmts, or their general willfulness,... argh, that record annoys me! >:D I say Lindsays?QM in Op.76.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 27, 2010, 04:42:11 AM

Quote from: Al Moritz on December 26, 2010, 12:17:48 PM
How are these?

Koopman:
http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Symphonies-Nos-44-45/dp/B000071WE7

Goodman:
http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Symphonies-42-44-Goodman/dp/B00006L3WD

Goodman is closer to your ideal "big band" sound than Solomons but his harpsichord is loud and intrusive (definitely not HIP: harpsichords only sound this loud with a microphone perched directly above them, and a sound engineer cranking the gain to eleven--neither of which were available at the Esterhazy palace ;D ). If one must have a continuo (seems silly to me), Solomons shows how it should be done. Still, I usually enjoy Goodman's band. Koopman I don't know.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 27, 2010, 04:51:45 AM

Quote from: Al Moritz on December 26, 2010, 12:17:48 PM
Lethe,

thanks for your kind words.

Alkan,

thanks for your offer of sending me the music. You can do this via yousendit.com (it is for free if you don't go for the premium options) to the email address under my profile.

According to this review:

http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/May%201984/33/754919/

it is a bit light sounding (One viola, one cello, one double bass? There would not be much for the musicians to depart from in the Farewell symphony!). I am apprehensive about that; I don't like light-weight Haydn, even though I may change my mind once I hear the recording. That is why I like Dorati's Haydn so much. It is gutsy and powerful, without being heavy and ponderous.

How are these?

Koopman:
http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Symphonies-Nos-44-45/dp/B000071WE7

Goodman:
http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Symphonies-42-44-Goodman/dp/B00006L3WD

Hi, Al.

Finding the ideal 44 may be a bit of a challenge given your criteria. Since recording Haydn's symphonies has become a cottage industry in the last couple of decades, it seems.

I would tend to agree with Sarge vis-a-vis Goodman there. I have Koopman as well, but it more closely resembles Solomons than any other. The 'authenticity' movement has hit hard on these works. They were composed for very small bands (certainly fewer than 20 players) and are being played by that size group today. To me, the 'biggest sounding' groups are Goodman and Brüggen. Brüggen is hard to find and expensive, Goodman is easy to find and under $10. Makes it sort of a no-brainer. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on December 27, 2010, 07:44:17 AM

Quote from: SonicMan on December 26, 2010, 04:21:11 PM
Bill - own both of these recordings, so will be interested in your comparison comments - seems that just one recording of these works is just not enough - Dave :)

Well, got both No. 1's in early this morning, Dave:

Haydn
SQ Op.76 No. 1
Buchberger Quartet
Recorded 2008

and

Haydn
SQ Op.76 No. 1
Quatuor Mosaïques
Recorded 2000

Stark differences. Hubert Buchberger seems to think that this composition should be like Vivaldi's Four Seasons in which he is the feature. In the the Quatuor Mosaïques' recording Christopher Coin's cello is allowed to breathe (not featured) and be on equal ground throughout. Also, the Buchberger performance seems to be like "sharp cheddar" and they try hard to make the composition theirs and not Haydn's. The Mosaïques' recording is better blended and they are truly a quartet throughout without being too soft in their response. The sound engineering on the Mosaïques' is superior as well, though I do pick up a bit of breathing from one or more of the performers. This does not bother me much though, as it does not on the second Vegh LvB cycle, which is my favorite.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on December 30, 2010, 09:12:17 AM

(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/brilliantclassics94175.jpg)

Jolanda Violante (fortepiano)

L'arte Dell'arco (on period instruments), Federico Guglielmo

Unlike Mozart, Haydn for some reason failed to realise the potential of the new pianoforte as a concertante instrument, and his concertos for keyboard (some spurious) tend to focus on the organ or harpsichord.

The three works on this CD are all authentic Haydn. The 4th concerto was composed in 1770 for the blind pianist Maria Theresa Paradis, for whom Mozart and Salieri also composed piano concertos.

The 3rd concerto dates from 1771, and has an especially beautiful slow movement. The D major concerto No.11 is a masterpiece and dates from 1780. It is much nearer to Mozart's concertos of this date, and some have gone as far as to label it Haydn's 'only' piano concerto. It is a big work, again with a wonderful slow movement following an impressive opening movement. It is however the finale 'Rondo all'Ungarese' that has made it one of Haydn's most famous and best loved works.

[Brilliant Classics]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Al Moritz on December 30, 2010, 01:07:28 PM

Sarge and Gurn,

thanks for your comments and suggestions.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 27, 2010, 04:51:45 AMThe 'authenticity' movement has hit hard on these works. They were composed for very small bands (certainly fewer than 20 players) and are being played by that size group today.

Do you have data for that assertion about very small bands? And does the one viola/one cello symphonic band of Solomons actually make historical sense (again, documentation for that would be great)?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 30, 2010, 01:49:54 PM

Quote from: Al Moritz on December 30, 2010, 01:07:28 PM
Sarge and Gurn,

thanks for your comments and suggestions.

Do you have data for that assertion about very small bands? And does the one viola/one cello symphonic band of Solomons actually make historical sense (again, documentation for that would be great)?

Al,
You're welcome.

from the book "Oxford Companion to Haydn" by David Wyn Jones (Oxford University Press - Anniversary Edition (2009)). Page 278 excerpt from entry "Performance Practice":
There is a sizable amount of archival material concerning both the players and the singers who performed at Esterháza. The ensemble that otherwise performed the symphonies also was used in the pit (at the opera). When Haydn first arrived in 1761, the orchestra consisted of 14 members: six violinists, one viola player, one cellist, one bassist (who also played the bassoon), one flautist, two oboists, one bassoon and 2 hornists. These could be expanded to 16 if necessary. Over time the orchestra increased in size; in 1772 the string complement was probably 4-3-2-1-1, and from 1776 with the beginning of regular opera performances, it remained more or less fixed at 5-5-2-2-1. From 1776 to early in 1778, 2 clarinet players were available. and on occasion, trumpets and timpani were available as well..... .

To give you some perspective relative to his symphonic works at those times;

Symphonies of 1761:
3, 6, 7, 8 & 108

Symphonies of 1772:
45, 46, 47, 51, 52 & 65 (a good year!!)

Symphonies of 1776:
61, 66, 67 & 69

I don't know how far back you went in this thread, but IIRC, it was in this one (might have been a thread actually called "Haydn's Symphonies" but I can't remember now). that I posted a chronology of the symphonies that is actually pretty accurate (we think). And Scarpia and Navneeth put it into an easy-to-use document. You might find that useful.

In any case, I am very sure that Solomons (and now several others) recorded the early symphonies with the proper number of players. I have another book that actually has that orchestra information in much more detail. Just don't like to type that much, and this one was on top of the pile. :D But if you have any questions concerning the history of Haydn, I'll be happy to provide what answers I can. I am not well-versed in analyzing the music , but you don't seem to need much assistance there. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 30, 2010, 03:06:08 PM

Quote from: Al Moritz on December 30, 2010, 01:07:28 PM
Do you have data for that assertion about very small bands? And does the one viola/one cello symphonic band of Solomons actually make historical sense (again, documentation for that would be great)?

Hi Al - if you're interested in the development of classical orchestras, esp. their numbers & types of instruments used - check out Gurn's 'Classical Thread' HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11225.msg301242.html#msg301242) - I posted (#422) about a book The Birth of the Orchestra by Spitzer & Zaslaw (covers 1650-1815) - detailed to 'beat the band' w/ appendices listing specific bands over decades and their various numbers & instruments - :D Dave

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Al Moritz on December 31, 2010, 03:09:25 AM

Thanks a lot, Gurn and Dave, for all the information.

Then it seems that Solomons is historically correct, after all. But then the Gramophone reviewer complaining about the small band did not know the facts -- I do not know how widely known they were in 1984 when the review was written.

Link to review:
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/May%201984/33/754919/

How about this complaint of his though:
"yet many of the quick movements, such as the first movements of Nos. 43, 44 and 48, sound almost hectic: as though an unnecessarily fast tempo was being applied to the music from outside, rather than being a natural ingredient of it."

Is there historical evidence for fast tempi in early performances? I thought the evidence was more in favor of much slower tempi 2 centuries ago -- the first performance of the Eroica supposedly had a duration of one and a half hours.

***

Certainly, it is fascinating to hear a performance with forces (number, instruments) that emulate the original situation. However, I am not so sure about the ultimate justification of the historical movement in *musical* terms. Haydn himself was reported to prefer to work with the largest orchestra he could get, and could it not reasonably be assumed that, had he been asked in his later years to perform a middle symphony, e.g. # 44 or 45, he would have chosen a much larger orchestra for this than available at the Esterhazy court? And if he would be able to come into our times and see that his music is played with modern instruments and larger forces, just like composers after him, thus 'leveling the playing field' for his music, as it were, would he not love it? I don't think it is reasonable to a priori assume that he would not.

So yes, HIP performances are historically justified and can be musically captivating, but I think modern performances are musically justified just the same -- as long as they are not heavy and ponderous, and thus defeat the spirit of the music.

Obviously, some ears would rather prefer a smaller performance also in musical terms, not just historical ones. But other ears have different preferences.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on December 31, 2010, 03:33:50 AM

Quote from: Al Moritz on December 31, 2010, 03:09:25 AM
Is there historical evidence for fast tempi in early performances? I thought the evidence was more in favor of much slower tempi 2 centuries ago -- the first performance of the Eroica supposedly had a duration of one and a half hours.

I don't know if you've watched this BBC film/documentary of the symphony (of the same name -- it's available on YouTube for a quick, low-def preview) and it supposedly recreates the premier of the work in the palace of Prince Lobkowitz, Beethoven's patron. And It is not the usual concert affair... Beethoven interrupts the orchestra for playing badly, shouts at Ries for complaining about the horn player (when the poor fellow played just as Beethoven had indicated on the score), and asks them to replay certain parts. So all of this combined, the duration of the premier could have stretched for 90 minutes, and perhaps that's what you read or heard about.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 31, 2010, 10:02:08 AM

Quote from: Al Moritz on December 31, 2010, 03:09:25 AM
Thanks a lot, Gurn and Dave, for all the information.

Then it seems that Solomons is historically correct, after all. But then the Gramophone reviewer complaining about the small band did not know the facts -- I do not know how widely known they were in 1984 when the review was written.

Link to review:
http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/May%201984/33/754919/

How about this complaint of his though:
"yet many of the quick movements, such as the first movements of Nos. 43, 44 and 48, sound almost hectic: as though an unnecessarily fast tempo was being applied to the music from outside, rather than being a natural ingredient of it."

Is there historical evidence for fast tempi in early performances? I thought the evidence was more in favor of much slower tempi 2 centuries ago -- the first performance of the Eroica supposedly had a duration of one and a half hours.

Hi, Al. Lots going on there. Yes, I agree, the reviewer in 1984 was unaware of the facts. He can be excused in 1984. A professional reviewer now wouldn't be so lucky. :) There has been a lot of research done since then. As it happens, Haydn is a particular interest of mine because I love to listen to his music. Consequently I have virtually every book published in the last 20 years (that sells to the English-speaking public, anyway). Still, things that specifically have to do with performance practice are more general than just Haydn. I only know some general things that I've read that aren't specifically music directions. Things like 'allegro now and allegro in 1780 are widely different'. The tendency in the 19th century was to slow things down a lot. This was suitable for then currently popular new music (composed for large orchestras playing in concert halls). Where things got off-kilter is that the same techniques were then applied to older music too (whatever was deemed fit to become "The Canon"), and after a few decades, Haydn played like Brahms was common. Haydn was never played like Brahms in Haydn's lifetime. :)

QuoteCertainly, it is fascinating to hear a performance with forces (number, instruments) that emulate the original situation. However, I am not so sure about the ultimate justification of the historical movement in *musical* terms. Haydn himself was reported to prefer to work with the largest orchestra he could get, and could it not reasonably be assumed that, had he been asked in his later years to perform a middle symphony, e.g. # 44 or 45, he would have chosen a much larger orchestra for this than available at the Esterhazy court? And if he would be able to come into our times and see that his music is played with modern instruments and larger forces, just like composers after him, thus 'leveling the playing field' for his music, as it were, would he not love it? I don't think it is reasonable to a priori assume that he would not.

I have never seen anything indicating to me that Haydn was anything but delighted with his little orchestra. Absolutely the only quote of his that I can think of that could be construed that way is indirect at best. Somewhere after the premiere of 'Eroica' which he was familiar with, the discussion came around to Beethoven's use of brass and big wind sections in general. And Haydn said something along the lines of "I wish I had them to work with when I was younger, I could have done something with them too". I just can't come to grips with what a lot of folks do when confronted with historical instruments and their sound. Which is to say "yes, but if Bach had modern instruments he would have preferred them". Maybe he would. Maybe he wouldn't. Maybe, like me, he would have preferred the rich but subtle tones of a wood flute over a metal one, for example. One thing that modern instrumentation does is make music homogeneous so to speak in terms of tone color. :-\

QuoteSo yes, HIP performances are historically justified and can be musically captivating, but I think modern performances are musically justified just the same -- as long as they are not heavy and ponderous, and thus defeat the spirit of the music.

Obviously, some ears would rather prefer a smaller performance also in musical terms, not just historical ones. But other ears have different preferences.

Absolutely. You can even have a 'right' sized orchestra playing modern instruments if you want. I'm referring to the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra. I have 3 of their disks of Haydn symphonies and am quite fond of them. And with some older releases, you can get really good performances of large orchestras playing modern instruments too. My favorite Haydn symphony disk is still (after all this time!) one I got years ago, on DGG, of the Vienna Philharmonic under Bernstein (recorded <>1986?) playing the 2 symphonies in G major, 88 & 92. Not only are they 2 of my favorite symphonies, but these guys play the hell out of them. I saw this disk on eBay last week for $6 or so, huge bargain, IMO. But that doesn't mean (to me) that all big band Haydn symphonies are well-done. Most of them I stay away from. YMMV. :)

Cheers for now,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on January 02, 2011, 10:11:28 AM

While my friend was staying here he asked me if Haydn ever had a "big hit". You know, the kind that most of the world would recognized like the opening to Beethoven's 5th when played. I told I did not think so....was I correct?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on January 02, 2011, 10:15:20 AM

Quote from: Bogey on January 02, 2011, 10:11:28 AM
I told I did not think so....was I correct?

Does the tune of the German national anthem count? ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 02, 2011, 10:23:07 AM

Quote from: Bogey on January 02, 2011, 10:11:28 AM
While my friend was staying here he asked me if Haydn ever had a "big hit". You know, the kind that most of the world would recognized like the opening to Beethoven's 5th when played. I told I did not think so....was I correct?

Quote from: Opus106 on January 02, 2011, 10:15:20 AM
Does the tune of the German national anthem count? ;D

Probably the most famous song in Europe other than 'Ode to Joy' and 'God Save the King' (which it was modeled after). Listen to the second movement of Op 76 #3 string quartet and you will hear it as variations. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Academia Wind Quintet of Prague - Op 091 #3 Wind Quintet in D 2nd mvmt - Adagio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on January 02, 2011, 10:46:30 AM

We'll do! Thanks!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on January 15, 2011, 11:18:12 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on January 02, 2011, 10:15:20 AM
Does the tune of the German national anthem count? ;D

No.

Is there anything else in music nearly as well known by so many as the opening of Beethoven's 5th? Even the Hallelujah Chorus seems like a very distant second.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 15, 2011, 11:22:37 AM

Quote from: DavidRoss on January 15, 2011, 11:18:12 AM
No.

Is there anything else in music nearly as well known by so many as the opening of Beethoven's 5th? Even the Hallelujah Chorus seems like a very distant second.

Yeah, but the question was 'did Haydn ever write anything famous?'. Unless you are implying that Haydn actually wrote the opening notes of Beethoven's 5th (at the risk of sounding like Newman!) then we can't legitimately count that one. :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Bruce Hungerford - Op 031 #2 Sonata #17 in d 3rd mvmt - Allegretto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on January 15, 2011, 11:30:38 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 15, 2011, 11:22:37 AM
Yeah, but the question was 'did Haydn ever write anything famous?'. Unless you are implying that Haydn actually wrote the opening notes of Beethoven's 5th (at the risk of sounding like Newman!) then we can't legitimately count that one. :D

Ah. I missed that question. I was responding to:

Quote from: Bogey on January 02, 2011, 10:11:28 AM
While my friend was staying here he asked me if Haydn ever had a "big hit". You know, the kind that most of the world would recognized like the opening to Beethoven's 5th when played. I told I did not think so....was I correct?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 15, 2011, 11:36:35 AM

Quote from: DavidRoss on January 15, 2011, 11:30:38 AM
Ah. I missed that question. I was responding to:

I see. :) In that context, I guess I would have to say "it depends when and where you lived". Some of Haydn's London symphonies were huge hits in their time and in places like London and Paris (the epicenter of the music world). At the time that Beethoven's 5th Symphony came out, Haydn was still a superstar. Of course, 20 years later and since then, not so much. People do prefer their emotions to be out front. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Bruce Hungerford - Op 053 Sonata #21 in C 2nd mvmt - Adagio molto - 3rd mvmt - Allegretto moderato

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 15, 2011, 11:40:10 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 15, 2011, 11:36:35 AM
I At the time that Beethoven's 5th Symphony came out, Haydn was still a superstar. Of course, 20 years later and since then, not so much. People do prefer their emotions to be out front. :)

Not that Haydn was a cold and dry philosopher who eschewed any emotion, was he? ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 15, 2011, 11:46:57 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 15, 2011, 11:40:10 AM
Not that Haydn was a cold and dry philosopher who eschewed any emotion, was he? ;D

No, not at all. But he did write music in a different aspect from what Beethoven did. Not least because Beethoven was consciously writing for posterity while Haydn was fulfilling this week's commissions. Emotion in Classical style was different, it was perhaps drawn out of the listener by the composer because it was expected that the listener was an active participant in the whole affair. By Late Beethoven's time, things had begun to swing more towards the composer showing you what HIS emotions were, and listening became a more passive affair. At least, that's what I infer from reading. I'm not always right. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Bruce Hungerford - Op 053 Sonata #21 in C 2nd mvmt - Adagio molto - 3rd mvmt - Allegretto moderato

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 15, 2011, 11:58:30 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 15, 2011, 11:46:57 AM
Emotion in Classical style was different, it was perhaps drawn out of the listener by the composer because it was expected that the listener was an active participant in the whole affair.

Boy, how I miss the opportunity to tell a string quartet violist: "Hey, that's not how you should play it!" or to say loudly during a symphonic concert: "Horns, you are completely out of touch with the music!"

The romantic mythology and mindset turned us music lovers into passive absorbers of whatever bad music His Majesty the Artist deems fit to present us... we shouldn't make any noise in the Temple of Great Music... Bah, humbug! :D

Beethoven himself, were he to arise from the dead and attend a contemporary concert, would recoil in horror at our habits... ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on January 15, 2011, 12:02:07 PM

Quote from: Florestan on January 15, 2011, 11:58:30 AM
Boy, how I miss the opportunity to tell a string quartet violist: "Hey, that's not how you should play it!" or to say loudly during a symphonic concert: "Horns, you are completely out of touch with the music!"

The romantic mythology and mindset turned us music lovers into passive absorbers of whatever bad music His Majesty the Artist deems fit to present us... we shouldn't make any noise in the Temple of Great Music... Bah, humbug! :D

Beethoven himself, were he to arise from the dead and attend a contemporary concert, would recoil in horror at our habits... ;D

Ancestor worship, innit?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 15, 2011, 12:05:53 PM

Quote from: Florestan on January 15, 2011, 11:58:30 AM
Boy, how I miss the opportunity to tell a string quartet violist: "Hey, that's not how you should play it!" or to say loudly during a symphonic concert: "Horns, you are completely out of touch with the music!"

The romantic mythology and mindset turned us music lovers into passive absorbers of whatever bad music His Majesty the Artist deems fit to present us... we shouldn't make any noise in the Temple of Great Music... Bah, humbug! :D

Beethoven himself, were he to arise from the dead and attend a contemporary concert, would recoil in horror at our habits... ;D

Umm, well perhaps not THAT active. More like taking the music and doing with it as you will intellectually. After all, certainly I, and possibly you (I don't know) wouldn't have even heard Haydn's music when it was new. Invitations from Esterhazy to the lower classes were probably pretty thin on the ground. I struggle with musical rhetoric even now, back then (when it was expected that you knew it) my education would have been virtually non-existent. Folk music for me, lad. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Bruce Hungerford - Op 109 Sonata #30 in E 2nd mvmt - Prestissimo

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 15, 2011, 12:09:42 PM

Quote from: DavidRoss on January 15, 2011, 12:02:07 PM
Ancestor worship, innit?

Well, I really mean it. I have attended "Die Fliedermaus" at the Romanian National Opera in Bucharest, Romanian singers singing in Romanian --- and I did not understand a single word of the arias. Can you imagine? I was sitting in the sixth front row and could not understand a single damn sung word. I wished I had the opportunity to stand and shout out loud "Sing clear, you rascals, or be gone!". ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 15, 2011, 12:12:29 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 15, 2011, 12:05:53 PM
Umm, well perhaps not THAT active. More like taking the music and doing with it as you will intellectually. After all, certainly I, and possibly you (I don't know) wouldn't have even heard Haydn's music when it was new. Invitations from Esterhazy to the lower classes were probably pretty thin on the ground.

One of the very few --- note it well, very few --- reasons I think our era is better than Haydn's. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 15, 2011, 12:14:44 PM

Quote from: Florestan on January 15, 2011, 12:12:29 PM
One of the very few --- note it well, very few --- reasons I think our era is better than Haydn's. ;D

Yes, well that and penicillin. :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Bruce Hungerford - Op 109 Sonata #30 in E 3rd mvmt - Andante molto cantabile ed espressivo

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 15, 2011, 12:17:57 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 15, 2011, 12:14:44 PM
Yes, well that and penicillin. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Al Moritz on January 24, 2011, 03:54:14 PM

Thanks a lot, Gurn, for your further comments regarding orchestration.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 15, 2011, 11:46:57 AM
Emotion in Classical style was different, it was perhaps drawn out of the listener by the composer because it was expected that the listener was an active participant in the whole affair. By Late Beethoven's time, things had begun to swing more towards the composer showing you what HIS emotions were, and listening became a more passive affair.

I would put it a bit differently. I am not so sure about the emotion issue, I think more in terms of musical structure. Haydn's music impresses itself on the listener more from within (including the works written in "popular" style), whereas Beethoven's (symphonic) music impresses itself on the listener from the outside. Or, to put it in other words, Haydn's music needs to be listened *into*, whereas at least a superficial and sufficiently satisfying impression of Beethoven's greatness can be gained simply from listening *at* the music, which requires much less effort. Of course, it is not detrimental to the Beethoven (symphonic) experience at all to listen *into* the music as well. Beethoven's genius lies in the combination of bold, grand, 'public' gestures with immense inventiveness and refinement in developing them.

But in fact, in relation to the above Beethoven's string quartets work quite similarly as Haydn's symphonies (and string quartets). Of course, Beethoven's string quartets are far less popular than his symphonies...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 24, 2011, 04:17:09 PM

Quote from: Al Moritz on January 24, 2011, 03:54:14 PM
Thanks a lot, Gurn, for your further comments regarding orchestration.

My pleasure. As you can tell, I am no musician, I am an hobbyist historian. I can only offer that if you read enough and listen enough, you can come to grips with some things like orchestration. For my own benefit, I hope that my naïvete allows unalloyed enjoyment. It has worked so far. :D

QuoteI would put it a bit differently. I am not so sure about the emotion issue, I think more in terms of musical structure. Haydn's music impresses itself on the listener more from within (including the works written in "popular" style), whereas Beethoven's (symphonic) music impresses itself on the listener from the outside. Or, to put it in other words, Haydn's music needs to be listened *into*, whereas at least a superficial and sufficiently satisfying impression of Beethoven's greatness can be gained simply from listening *at* the music, which requires much less effort. Of course, it is not detrimental to the Beethoven (symphonic) experience at all to listen *into* the music as well. Beethoven's genius lies in the combination of bold, grand, 'public' gestures with immense inventiveness and refinement in developing them.

But in fact, in relation to the above Beethoven's string quartets work quite similarly as Haydn's symphonies (and string quartets). Of course, Beethoven's string quartets are far less popular than his symphonies...

I think we are expressing the same end result, just getting at it via a different path. What you are terming "listening *at*" is the same as what I could only think of as "passive listening". Either way, the listener is presented with a done deal. Earlier music was much more demanding in its listening requirements, however its far more limited audience was capable of dealing with it on the composer's terms. When music's audience expanded exponentially in the early 19th century, the composer didn't take a chance that they wouldn't be able to digest the music. The contrast between 1775 and 1850 is so great that one can scarcely call it all the same thing; performance of music. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
BBC Scottish SO / Atherton Lawrence Power (Viola) - Hindemith WoO 'Trauermusik' for Viola & Orchestra

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 25, 2011, 01:12:57 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 24, 2011, 04:17:09 PM
Earlier music was much more demanding in its listening requirements, however its far more limited audience was capable of dealing with it on the composer's terms. When music's audience expanded exponentially in the early 19th century, the composer didn't take a chance that they wouldn't be able to digest the music. The contrast between 1775 and 1850 is so great that one can scarcely call it all the same thing; performance of music. :)

I'm not quite sure I get it, Gurn. As a hobbyist historian, and a very knowledgeable one at that, could you contrast a specific 1850 performance with a specific 1775 performance? What did the former have, that the latter missed, and viceversa?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 26, 2011, 05:35:01 PM

Ah, y'ere a tough one, Florestan. :)

Here are a couple of scenarios. It is my way to have you read between the lines a bit. But the pertinent information is there, only lacking a bit of imagination to make it live. :)

1783.
Esterhazy Palace. Two gentlemen dressed in the latest style (Florestan & Blanston, elegant and very wealthy foreigners) are seated drinking port in a most elegant drawing room. Over near the pianoforte, Prince Esterhazy is chatting with some visitors from Vienna. At the keyboard, a uniformed and bewigged fellow, chatting with some ladies, toying with the keys now, as his part in the evening's entertainment is over. As a long time retainer to the Prince, and having attained some fame on his own, he is now allowed to mingle a bit with the guests...

Florestan: Well, Blanston, that was highly interesting. That Haydn fellow seems to play the pianoforte as well as he does everything else musical.

Blanston: Indeed! That little symphony earlier, the one in D major, was quite brilliant. It was the keyboard sonatas that intrigued me, though. I am very pleased that the Prince saw his way clear to invite us tonight!

F: Quite so. There were several things about that last sonata that really caught my ear. You noticed that it was in D major also, I'm sure. But the strangest thing to me was that it had the shortest exposition and the longest development of any work I ever heard. I don't know how many measures were in the second part, but there were clearly only 8 in the first part, and then it was followed by the longest way around to home that was ever devised, I daresay!

B: Yes, it was one of the most convincing rhetorical orations, I, for one, firmly believed that he would never get back to the major in the end via that route, but he did try to cadence three different times until he found the proper opening sequence on the fourth try and there it was. I'll say this, the man has some wit about him!

F: Yes, it was wonderfully satisfying to hear him struggling for it and finally finding the right sequence. Pity that so few composers these days can state such a wonderful argument as that. The Prince was generous tonight, there are at least 20 people here to enjoy this. Life is good, and so is this port. I believe I'll have another...

January 15, 1860
Kärntnertortheater, Vienna. Two well-dressed, middle-aged men are sitting after intermission, waiting for the second half of the concert to begin. They are Gurn Blanston, a visiting merchant from Dublin and his host, Florestan Biedermeier, an importer from right here in Vienna. Blanston's ever present cigar is emitting a fine, fragrant blue thread up to the beautiful ornate ceiling. This is the first ever 'subscription' concert of the new Vienna Philharmonic Society, which has been around for several years now but never managed to get it together. Under the baton of the opera house director, Carl Eckert, they are establishing a new tradition....

FB: Well, Blanston, what did you think of that Brahms serenade?

GB: Well, Florry m'lad, I have to say, that touched me deeply. Possibly that Brahms chap has a future, although I hear that he and the Wagner faction aren't getting along too well. But that serenade was quite good, reminded me of that good, old time music that I heard in London when I was a boy.

FB: Yes, well Wagner is the future, you know. One day, all operas will be like his. There really isn't much of a future at all for absolute music. You should hear the way that Liszt can paint a picture of hell with a few diminished minor chords. In any case, the fact that we now have this wonderful hall to showcase new music, and we can pick only the cream of the music of the past and have it played by this tremendous orchestra means that the best music can live forever!

GB: But Florry, if you eliminate most of the old music, won't you soon run out of music for this orchestra?

FB: Oh no, not at all! Most of the best music hasn't even been written yet. Oh, they're dimming the lights. I can hardly wait for this Raff symphony...

The dates and places are historically accurate. And the music and such. The conversation in each scenario is based on what I feel that history is telling us. The sonata at Esterhazy is Hob 16_42 in D major. It is considered by rhetoricians to be a nearly perfect example of Classical declamation. The finale has an introduction of 8 measures, and then takes an additional 93 (!) measures to get to a final cadence. Along the way, Haydn proposes numerous solutions for the 'how to get home' problem, trying them out and finding them wanting. Eventually he starts out again 'right' and voila! Home. It is a joke after all, brilliantly told. But the audience was actually able to appreciate it. They studied rhetoric in school. They knew how it applied to music. They were expected to know. And fortunately for us, we were both frightfully well-to-do and the Prince asked us in. Else we would have been home that evening listening to our Haydn CD's yet again... :D

At the end of the 18th century, rhetoric in general, not just in music, disappeared from the landscape of all but the most refined universities. Simultaneously, the aristocracy went down the same rabbit-hole and the middle class took over the remains of 'culture'. And in order to make a buck entertaining the lot of them (thousands rather than dozens), sonic museums were built, municipal orchestras established, and above all, a 'Canon of Western Music' established. And before long, music that couldn't stand the rigors of regular performance at the museum simply disappeared. And composers realized that if they didn't make every piece that they wrote "entirely new and original", they would never achieve artistic acceptance. Anyway, that's a whole other issue.

I hope this extended ramble made at least a bit of sense to you or anyone else. What I have in my head and what I can get down on 'paper' are usually not quite the same thing... :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Quartetto Esterhazy - Hob 03 34 Quartet in D for Strings Op 20 #4 1st mvmt - Allegro di molto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 27, 2011, 04:56:49 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 26, 2011, 05:35:01 PM
Ah, y'ere a tough one, Florestan. :)

I'm so glad I challenged you! I was expecting you to come up with a little gem and voila! --- you did.. 0:)

Quote
Here are a couple of scenarios. It is my way to have you read between the lines a bit. But the pertinent information is there, only lacking a bit of imagination to make it live. :)

Consciously or inconsciously, you crafted them to correspond to their time: the first is a sonata form and the second a piano fantasy. :)

Quote
1783.
Esterhazy Palace. Two gentlemen dressed in the latest style (Florestan & Blanston, elegant and very wealthy foreigners) are seated drinking port in a most elegant drawing room.

Right from the start, my favourite part. (Short but effective exposition, almost like a Mannheim rocket, lieber Gottfried Uwe Reinhardt Nepomuk!) 8)

Quote
Over near the pianoforte, Prince Esterhazy is chatting with some visitors from Vienna. At the keyboard, a uniformed and bewigged fellow, chatting with some ladies, toying with the keys now, as his part in the evening's entertainment is over. As a long time retainer to the Prince, and having attained some fame on his own, he is now allowed to mingle a bit with the guests...

Florestan: Well, Blanston, that was highly interesting. That Haydn fellow seems to play the pianoforte as well as he does everything else musical.

Blanston: Indeed! That little symphony earlier, the one in D major, was quite brilliant. It was the keyboard sonatas that intrigued me, though. I am very pleased that the Prince saw his way clear to invite us tonight!

F: Quite so. There were several things about that last sonata that really caught my ear. You noticed that it was in D major also, I'm sure. But the strangest thing to me was that it had the shortest exposition and the longest development of any work I ever heard. I don't know how many measures were in the second part, but there were clearly only 8 in the first part, and then it was followed by the longest way around to home that was ever devised, I daresay!

B: Yes, it was one of the most convincing rhetorical orations, I, for one, firmly believed that he would never get back to the major in the end via that route, but he did try to cadence three different times until he found the proper opening sequence on the fourth try and there it was. I'll say this, the man has some wit about him!

F: Yes, it was wonderfully satisfying to hear him struggling for it and finally finding the right sequence. Pity that so few composers these days can state such a wonderful argument as that. The Prince was generous tonight, there are at least 20 people here to enjoy this.

Great development, carefully contructed and elegantly expressed.

Quote
Life is good, and so is this port. I believe I'll have another...

As for the coming home, it's as delightful as the beginning of the journey. :)

Quote
January 15, 1860
Kärntnertortheater, Vienna. Two well-dressed, middle-aged men are sitting after intermission, waiting for the second half of the concert to begin. They are Gurn Blanston, a visiting merchant from Dublin and his host, Florestan Biedermeier, an importer from right here in Vienna. Blanston's ever present cigar is emitting a fine, fragrant blue thread up to the beautiful ornate ceiling. This is the first ever 'subscription' concert of the new Vienna Philharmonic Society, which has been around for several years now but never managed to get it together. Under the baton of the opera house director, Carl Eckert, they are establishing a new tradition....

FB: Well, Blanston, what did you think of that Brahms serenade?

GB: Well, Florry m'lad, I have to say, that touched me deeply. Possibly that Brahms chap has a future, although I hear that he and the Wagner faction aren't getting along too well. But that serenade was quite good, reminded me of that good, old time music that I heard in London when I was a boy.

FB: Yes, well Wagner is the future, you know. One day, all operas will be like his. There really isn't much of a future at all for absolute music. You should hear the way that Liszt can paint a picture of hell with a few diminished minor chords. In any case, the fact that we now have this wonderful hall to showcase new music, and we can pick only the cream of the music of the past and have it played by this tremendous orchestra means that the best music can live forever!

GB: But Florry, if you eliminate most of the old music, won't you soon run out of music for this orchestra?

FB: Oh no, not at all! Most of the best music hasn't even been written yet. Oh, they're dimming the lights. I can hardly wait for this Raff symphony...

This Gurn sounds like he might have been the son of the older one, the Eszterhazy's guest, while Mr. Florestan here certainly has no kinship whatsoever with his namesake above. :)

Quote
The dates and places are historically accurate. And the music and such. The conversation in each scenario is based on what I feel that history is telling us. The sonata at Esterhazy is Hob 16_42 in D major. It is considered by rhetoricians to be a nearly perfect example of Classical declamation. The finale has an introduction of 8 measures, and then takes an additional 93 (!) measures to get to a final cadence. Along the way, Haydn proposes numerous solutions for the 'how to get home' problem, trying them out and finding them wanting. Eventually he starts out again 'right' and voila! Home. It is a joke after all, brilliantly told.

Why, thanks a lot. I wasn't familiar with this sonata. It sounds fascinating and I'll surely investigate it attentively.

Quote
But the audience was actually able to appreciate it. They studied rhetoric in school. They knew how it applied to music. They were expected to know. And fortunately for us, we were both frightfully well-to-do and the Prince asked us in.

Absolutely correct. But this raises an interesting question: if Haydn wrote his music for an audience of connoisseurs --- as he did --- then does it follow that someone whose knowledge of rhetoric is sparse, to put it mildly, will never be able to fully understand and appreciate it?

Quote
Else we would have been home that evening listening to our Haydn CD's yet again... :D

Well, that wouldn't have been bad either --- but I'd have dearly missed our conversation... and Eszterhazy's excellent port, naturally. :P

Quote
At the end of the 18th century, rhetoric in general, not just in music, disappeared from the landscape of all but the most refined universities.

Alas! :( But then again, it was the very general mentality that changed, so no surprise. One of the most authoritative witnesses of that change, Herr Hegel, said something to the effect that trying to preserve the cultural forms of the past is hopeless when the very substance of the spirit has changed.

Quote
Simultaneously, the aristocracy went down the same rabbit-hole

Well, I think I'll amend this "simultaneously" part a bit: at least in the German States, first and foremost in Austria, the aristocracy retained its position and influence long into the 19th century. At one end we have the aristocratic support Beethoven received and at the other King Ludwig's enthusiastic promotion of Wagner, with a good measure of others, notably the Thurn und Taxis, in between.

Quote
and the middle class took over the remains of 'culture'.

Sorry, but this needs amendment, too. You make it sound as if the old culture was destroyed in some sort of catastrophy and the bourgeoisie --- I use this term very losely and without any pejorative undertone --- took over its debris. I don't think this is the case. After all, for all direct testimonies we have, the artistic tastes of the bourgeoisie at large were rather conservative and it is exactly in those times that the term "philistine" has been coined. Besides, hardcore Romantics such as Schumann and Berlioz suffered from, and fought against, exactly this philistine spirit of the bourgeoisie.

Quote
And in order to make a buck entertaining the lot of them (thousands rather than dozens), sonic museums were built, municipal orchestras established,

Now, that's a rather simplistic --- and unsympathetic, dare I say --- explanation of why public orchestras appeared. Certainly the bourgeoisie's need for entertainment played its part, but I think other forces must be taken into account as well. As the aristocracy slowly but steadily lost its social role, the composers and musicians were no more in the service of this or that aristocrat, who secured them a position and the opportunity to compose and perform, so they needed something else to replace the "ancien regime", and they found it in the municipal orchestras, which thus appear to me not as a mere vehicle of the bourgeoisie's entertaining whims but as a common space built on common interest and a logical consequence of the social changes in effect. After all, there are many Romantic orchestral works with little, if any, entertaining value for a typical bourgeois.

Quote
and above all, a 'Canon of Western Music' established.

For this we cannot be grateful enough, since much of Haydn's work would have been lost forever without it. ;D

Quote
And before long, music that couldn't stand the rigors of regular performance at the museum simply disappeared.

Well, this is rather self-contradictory. On one hand, the old music was no more fashionable and the tastes of the new audiences went in other directions; on the other hand, the very same audience kept some old music in such reverence and awe that it deemed fit to canonize it and to painstakingly catalogue each and every scrap of paper on which Haydn or Mozart penned a tune. Something is lost on me here.

Besides, which were those rigors you mention?

Quote
And composers realized that if they didn't make every piece that they wrote "entirely new and original", they would never achieve artistic acceptance.

I beg to differ, once again. Liszt was an enormously popular composer and the bourgeois flocked to his concerts and accepted him widely. Yet most of his compositions consisted of nothing else than, or mainly, paraphrases and caprices on the music of others --- nothing entirely new and original in them.

Mendelssohn was hugely popular in that most bourgeois of all bourgeois countries, Victorian England --- yet his music, for all its beauty, is nothing like entirely new and original.

Now, I wonder: had Haydn not come up with something new, original and surprising in every new symphony he composed, would Esterhazy have continued to keep him in his service?

Quote
Anyway, that's a whole other issue.

Actually it's not quite other, at least not from me, and I'll explain you why.

It is my impression --- and if I'm mistaken, please correct me --- that you regard the Romantic era with a certain aloofness: you have little, if any, sympathy for (a) its social backbone, the bourgeoisie, as contrasted with the aristocracy, (b) the musical forms and products specifically tied to Romanticism and (c) the musical infrastructure we inherited from that time.

If this be the case, I cannot agree with you in these points.

First, for all its defaults and sins, the bourgeoisie has the merit of making music --- and art in general --- accessible to a much wider audience than at any time in the past. If we, "middle-class" or "proletarians" as we are, are today able to listen to whatever music suits our tastes, it is precisely because of the social revolution signalled 200 years ago by the rising star of bourgeoisie.

Besides, not every aristocrat was an Eszterhazy, nor every bourgeois a philistine. The aristocratic era "gave" us Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven and a plethora of other outstanding composers --- and for this I am grateful. But I'm equally grateful to the bourgeois era for "giving" us Schumann, Mendelssohn, Chopin, Brahms, Liszt, Wagner, Bruckner, Mahler and a plethora of other outstanding composers. 8)

Moreover, I deplore the passing of those days when each and every bourgeois home featured at least one musical instrument which was daily used; those days when even the most musically opaque pater familias felt that ensuring a modicum of musical education to his offsprings was something desirable; when music was still a live experience in all its incarnations and the recordings did not yet replace the piano reductions.

Secondly, the musical forms specifically engendered by Romanticism did not appear out of the blue from the whim of the bourgeoisie. The old, strict forms could simply not accommodate specifically Romantic feelings and ideas, such as the love of nature, the primacy of intuition and passion over reason and constraint, the fusion of music and literature a.s.o. It was only too natural that new forms appeared who could convey all the above in a more appropriate and direct way. There's nothing strange in this, nor anything to be feared or regarded unsympathetically.

Third, I am only too grateful to the bourgeois era for "giving" us the public orchestras and concerts and for setting in motion the advent of the recording industry. How could I, who delight in a concert hall, or in the comfort of my home, of my favourite music, condemn or disdain the era who is at the very origin of my delight? 0:)

There --- I felt I was long due to do it: singing the musical praises of the bourgeoisie, that is. :)

Quote
I hope this extended ramble made at least a bit of sense to you or anyone else.

If yours was an extended ramble, I fear to inquire into how you call my reply. ???

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 27, 2011, 07:17:17 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 27, 2011, 04:56:49 AM
I'm so glad I challenged you! I was expecting you to come up with a little gem and voila! --- you did.. 0:)

Consciously or inconsciously, you crafted them to correspond to their time: the first is a sonata form and the second a piano fantasy. :)

:)
Pleased you enjoyed. I did make an effort to stay within the time frames presented (except for the CD's, of course. :D )

QuoteRight from the start, my favourite part. (Short but effective exposition, almost like a Mannheim rocket, lieber Gottfried Uwe Reinhardt Nepomuk!) 8)

Great development, carefully contructed and elegantly expressed.

As for the coming home, it's as delightful as the beginning of the journey. :)

Clearly our heroes are having a good time, and why not? I would be all a'twitter if we could relive that moment in time. One of the ladies at the piano talking to Haydn was actually the beneficiary of that sonata. She wrote to a friend (in a letter that is preserved) that Haydn played it for her at Esterhazy and dedicated and presented her with it. Just think, it could have been the Blanston Sonata... :-\

QuoteThis Gurn sounds like he might have been the son of the older one, the Eszterhazy's guest, while Mr. Florestan here certainly has no kinship whatsoever with his namesake above. :)

The origins of the Blanston Clan are lost in the mists of time. They are unchanged and unchanging. The Biedermeier's, though, were very reflective of their particular eras. Their very mutability is what made them ideal subjects for this essay... ;)

QuoteWhy, thanks a lot. I wasn't familiar with this sonata. It sounds fascinating and I'll surely investigate it attentively.

IIRC, the 3 of them together are called The Bosler Sonatas. They were composed in 1783.

QuoteAbsolutely correct. But this raises an interesting question: if Haydn wrote his music for an audience of connoisseurs --- as he did --- then does it follow that someone whose knowledge of rhetoric is sparse, to put it mildly, will never be able to fully understand and appreciate it?

That is precisely the main argument against "authenticity", as you may know. In the late 20th century there has been a burst of interest in understanding musical rhetoric. There are at least a couple of books on it, one that I know of is called approximately "Rhetoric in Haydn's Music" by Tom Beghin. If you studied rhetoric at all and the the basic principles of it, then you can learn how to apply it to music. I can't apply it myself because I don't know enough about the structure to recognize the opportunities. Which is the point, I guess. But I certainly understand it when it's written out for me, like the essay in "Haydn & His World" that I got this info from.

QuoteWell, that wouldn't have been bad either --- but I'd have dearly missed our conversation... and Eszterhazy's excellent port, naturally. :P

It's good to be da King! :D

QuoteAlas! :( But then again, it was the very general mentality that changed, so no surprise. One of the most authoritative witnesses of that change, Herr Hegel, said something to the effect that trying to preserve the cultural forms of the past is hopeless when the very substance of the spirit has changed.

The end of the Enlightenment, the beginning of the Industrial Age, the civilized world was turned on its head in the first half of the 19th century. Much of that was to the good, but some of it was freakin' horrible! :-\

QuoteWell, I think I'll amend this "simultaneously" part a bit: at least in the German States, first and foremost in Austria, the aristocracy retained its position and influence long into the 19th century. At one end we have the aristocratic support Beethoven received and at the other King Ludwig's enthusiastic promotion of Wagner, with a good measure of others, notably the Thurn und Taxis, in between.

Sorry, but this needs amendment, too. You make it sound as if the old culture was destroyed in some sort of catastrophy and the bourgeoisie --- I use this term very losely and without any pejorative undertone --- took over its debris. I don't think this is the case. After all, for all direct testimonies we have, the artistic tastes of the bourgeoisie at large were rather conservative and it is exactly in those times that the term "philistine" has been coined. Besides, hardcore Romantics such as Schumann and Berlioz suffered from, and fought against, exactly this philistine spirit of the bourgeoisie.

Yes, certainly, I was taking a shortcut to save typing. :) In the Austro-Hungarian and German states, change didn't come about until at least 1848. In the big picture of history, 50 years is a damned fast change, albeit not simultaneous. As to whether the old culture was destroyed or not, I think it depends on who you were and your position in it. The death of the patronage system, the beginnings of "art for art's sake", the quest for immortality by artists; these were all contributing factors to the destruction of the prevailing culture. If 'destruction' is what has you down, then let me call it evolution then (or de-evolution as our friend Josquin would say ::D ). This can't devolve into a semantic debate; I'm not talking about essentially picking up the tattered pieces, but things like museums in general (not just sonic ones) didn't exist for paintings and art. It was a cultural change.

QuoteNow, that's a rather simplistic --- and unsympathetic, dare I say --- explanation of why public orchestras appeared. Certainly the bourgeoisie's need for entertainment played its part, but I think other forces must be taken into account as well. As the aristocracy slowly but steadily lost its social role, the composers and musicians were no more in the service of this or that aristocrat, who secured them a position and the opportunity to compose and perform, so they needed something else to replace the "ancien regime", and they found it in the municipal orchestras, which thus appear to me not as a mere vehicle of the bourgeoisie's entertaining whims but as a common space built on common interest and a logical consequence of the social changes in effect. After all, there are many Romantic orchestral works with little, if any, entertaining value for a typical bourgeois.

That's as may be; simplicity doesn't mandate inaccuracy. Other than opera houses, concert halls didn't exist. Other than theater orchestras, municipal symphonies didn't exist. That's why Beethoven had to scrounge up musicians himself to premiere his 9th symphony in 1824. The information about the Vienna Philharmonic I got from their own website. I know I seem cynical, but from my POV, if it wasn't because there was money to be made being an impresario and putting on concerts, then it wouldn't have been successful. Publicly funded performance venues may very well have been a source of civic pride, as you say. But if they had been a money losing proposition, then they wouldn't have happened. :)

QuoteFor this we cannot be grateful enough, since much of Haydn's work would have been lost forever without it. ;D

Well, this is rather self-contradictory. On one hand, the old music was no more fashionable and the tastes of the new audiences went in other directions; on the other hand, the very same audience kept some old music in such reverence and awe that it deemed fit to canonize it and to painstakingly catalogue each and every scrap of paper on which Haydn or Mozart penned a tune. Something is lost on me here.

Besides, which were those rigors you mention?

Very true. Although what was found wanting in some works by the Romantic generation could well have been precisely what was their appeal to the generation for which they were written. And if we today find those same works wanting, it only shows that our sensibilities and sympathies are far more closely allied to people who lived closer to our times than to the generations that came before. If you could project Classical/Enlightenment sensibilities forward in time (neat trick!) then I think you would find that Mozart would have been disgusted with much of the Romantics, just like Beethoven was with those of his contemporaries whom he heard. I am not making personal value judgments here, I'm just saying that failing to please the Romantics enough to "make the Canon" does not mean that the music had no value. The fact of the matter is that only a few works of Haydn OR Mozart made the cut in terms of actual performance. They may have revered Haydn, but they didn't play a hell of a lot of his music. :)

QuoteI beg to differ, once again. Liszt was an enormously popular composer and the bourgeois flocked to his concerts and accepted him widely. Yet most of his compositions consisted of nothing else than, or mainly, paraphrases and caprices on the music of others --- nothing entirely new and original in them.

Mendelssohn was hugely popular in that most bourgeois of all bourgeois countries, Victorian England --- yet his music, for all its beauty, is nothing like entirely new and original.

Oh, I was projecting out past 1860. The results weren't apparent from the beginning, but they were felt strongly later on. I have an interesting book that discusses this phenomenon. I'll meditate on it and remember which it is and dig it out. Liszt was not affected anyway, I was thinking more like Schönberg...:)

QuoteNow, I wonder: had Haydn not come up with something new, original and surprising in every new symphony he composed, would Esterhazy have continued to keep him in his service?

I can't suppose, since he did. :) Haydn has lots to say about being original. You should check it out, I think you would find it very interesting. An author to look for is Elaine Sisman.

QuoteActually it's not quite other, at least not from me, and I'll explain you why.

It is my impression --- and if I'm mistaken, please correct me --- that you regard the Romantic era with a certain aloofness: you have little, if any, sympathy for (a) its social backbone, the bourgeoisie, as contrasted with the aristocracy, (b) the musical forms and products specifically tied to Romanticism and (c) the musical infrastructure we inherited from that time.

If this be the case, I cannot agree with you in these points.

First, for all its defaults and sins, the bourgeoisie has the merit of making music --- and art in general --- accessible to a much wider audience than at any time in the past. If we, "middle-class" or "proletarians" as we are, are today able to listen to whatever music suits our tastes, it is precisely because of the social revolution signalled 200 years ago by the rising star of bourgeoisie.

Nothing is all good, and conversely... there is much to love in that era. But when I review the period from 1760 to 1830 and compare it to 1830 to 1900, I find a lot more to like musically in the earlier 60 years than in the later 70. Does that mean I don't like anything about the later 70? Hell no! I can list 7 composers who wrote some stuff I can certainly live with. :D As for making value judgments about the people/culture itself, I don't. It is what it is. They are our ancestors, after all, so denying ones roots is self-defeating.

QuoteBesides, not every aristocrat was an Eszterhazy, nor every bourgeois a philistine. The aristocratic era "gave" us Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven and a plethora of other outstanding composers --- and for this I am grateful. But I'm equally grateful to the bourgeois era for "giving" us Schumann, Mendelssohn, Chopin, Brahms, Liszt, Wagner, Bruckner, Mahler and a plethora of other outstanding composers. 8)

Ditto. Well, not Mahler... ::) ;D

QuoteMoreover, I deplore the passing of those days when each and every bourgeois home featured at least one musical instrument which was daily used; those days when even the most musically opaque pater familias felt that ensuring a modicum of musical education to his offsprings was something desirable; when music was still a live experience in all its incarnations and the recordings did not yet replace the piano reductions.

Double ditto. I was brought up with a piano in the house. And other instruments. Family music making time was great fun. It is a gaping hole in modern society to not have that any more.

QuoteSecondly, the musical forms specifically engendered by Romanticism did not appear out of the blue from the whim of the bourgeoisie. The old, strict forms could simply not accommodate specifically Romantic feelings and ideas, such as the love of nature, the primacy of intuition and passion over reason and constraint, the fusion of music and literature a.s.o. It was only too natural that new forms appeared who could convey all the above in a more appropriate and direct way. There's nothing strange in this, nor anything to be feared or regarded unsympathetically.

Third, I am only too grateful to the bourgeois era for "giving" us the public orchestras and concerts and for setting in motion the advent of the recording industry. How could I, who delight in a concert hall, or in the comfort of my home, of my favourite music, condemn or disdain the era who is at the very origin of my delight? 0:)

There --- I felt I was long due to do it: singing the musical praises of the bourgeoisie, that is. :)

If yours was an extended ramble, I fear to inquire into how you call my reply. ???

I have to leave this now, so I can't reply your last. I will be back this evening though. Interesting and enjoyable time. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on January 27, 2011, 11:19:04 AM

Great minds, etc.: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,17875.msg485632.html#msg485632

If you'll excuse me, gentlemen, there's a Haydn sonata I need to track down.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 27, 2011, 11:30:05 AM

Quote from: DavidRoss on January 27, 2011, 11:19:04 AM
Great minds, etc.: http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,17875.msg485632.html#msg485632

If you'll excuse me, gentlemen, there's a Haydn sonata I need to track down.

David,
I am really truly interested to know if you can hear and absorb the rhetorical aspects of that sonata. Obviously you wouldn't do it all at once, first listen and without a score, but the plethora of little things, like starting over when something doesn't work, for example. It is the whole point of the thing from Haydn's POV. :o I freely admit, it is a major struggle for me. Good thing I like the hell out of the music! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 27, 2011, 05:44:05 PM

Florestan,
Now, to continue a bit where I left off this morning. The demands of my work sometimes crowd out the pleasure of musical discussion. I don't understand it... ::) :)

QuoteSecondly, the musical forms specifically engendered by Romanticism did not appear out of the blue from the whim of the bourgeoisie. The old, strict forms could simply not accommodate specifically Romantic feelings and ideas, such as the love of nature, the primacy of intuition and passion over reason and constraint, the fusion of music and literature a.s.o. It was only too natural that new forms appeared who could convey all the above in a more appropriate and direct way. There's nothing strange in this, nor anything to be feared or regarded unsympathetically.

Yes, certainly that is true. One can almost see a dividing line very shortly after the turn of the century when suddenly a crop of composers (obviously ones who had been composing all along) suddenly began to turn from sonatas to such 'new' things as "potpourris" and many more fantasias than previously. Certainly there were fantasias and capriccios before (just look at the output of CPE Bach!). But now they were the norm. And the various other names were merely fantasias in thin disguise. I read something interesting about Carl Maria von Weber (who is my personal candidate for "Father of Romantic Music"). He found it very difficult indeed to compose in 'sonata form', so any time he composed something that 'required' a sonata-allegro first movement, he always wrote the rest of it first and then forced himself to sit down and finally write the opening movement. Eventually he dispensed with sonata form altogether. And several other contemporaries (2 names that jump off the page are Hummel & Spohr) also went full out with less structured forms. But there were certainly others who are chronologically Romantics, but whose music is structured Classically, and I will just throw Mendelssohn's name into the mix and you can decide for yourself. As it happens, I am as big a fan as there is of all 4 of those composers, so no animus from me. However, when you get down to the other end of the century, if you take Brahms out of the mix, you will be hard pressed to name a German composer who has much appeal for me. My Romantics mostly spoke Russian. :)

QuoteThird, I am only too grateful to the bourgeois era for "giving" us the public orchestras and concerts and for setting in motion the advent of the recording industry. How could I, who delight in a concert hall, or in the comfort of my home, of my favourite music, condemn or disdain the era who is at the very origin of my delight? 0:)

There --- I felt I was long due to do it: singing the musical praises of the bourgeoisie, that is. :)

If yours was an extended ramble, I fear to inquire into how you call my reply. ???

But do you see that the music post <>1850 was being tailored for the concert hall? It has lost the intimacy that it once had, and also the interactivity between composer and audience. In the 18th century, the performer was totally unimportant (to the audience), and only to the composer insofar as he/she had the technical capability of conveying the music properly. In the 19th century, the performer was everything. From the time that Dussek turned his piano sideways so that the women in the audience could enjoy his splendid profile, through the violin pyrotechnics of Paganini and the piano ones of Liszt, it was the virtuoso who totally dominated the music scene. You shouldn't doubt me here, despite the fact that I'm not writing a book with footnotes, there is documentation aplenty for this. And what I mean by music that didn't stand up to the concert hall is music that didn't have the virtuosity necessary to show off a player to best advantage. And once the audience got used to this, then they didn't care for much of the older music either. Haydn was actually not the darling of these people, he was considered a wise old pedant, a bewigged poop who was a lackey of the ruling classes. The intricacies that so fascinated his contemporaries held no interest for audiences. The only ones who appreciated Haydn were composers and a few critics, which were all that was left of the kenner.

I know this all sounds like I'm really down on all this progress, but actually I'm not. I try to judge each age for what it is, sui generis. So I'm not making a value judgment, merely stating the reality of what was. If I say that I don't like Wagner's music particularly, it isn't because I like Haydn's so much, it's because I don't like Wagner's. But of Wagner's contemporaries, I am extraordinarily keen on Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, Smetana and of course, the titanic Brahms (along with a host of Russians). Maybe you weren't saying that I fail to appreciate Romantic music, but in case you were thinking it, please don't. I am just picky about it, because I don't care for a lot of long-winded poop. :)

OK, so what else shall we talk about? :D I didn't think you were rambling earlier, BTW, but in case it helps, I went ahead and extended my typing more than usual... :D

Cheers, amigo,
8)

----------------
Now playing:
Cerasi, Carole - Hob 16 42 Sonata in D for Fortepiano 1st mvmt - Andante con espressione

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 28, 2011, 01:02:48 AM

Thanks for your thoughtful replies, Gurn!

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 27, 2011, 07:17:17 AM
IIRC, the 3 of them together are called The Bosler Sonatas. They were composed in 1783.

Will surely look for them.

Quote
That is precisely the main argument against "authenticity", as you may know. In the late 20th century there has been a burst of interest in understanding musical rhetoric. There are at least a couple of books on it, one that I know of is called approximately "Rhetoric in Haydn's Music" by Tom Beghin. If you studied rhetoric at all and the the basic principles of it, then you can learn how to apply it to music. I can't apply it myself because I don't know enough about the structure to recognize the opportunities. Which is the point, I guess. But I certainly understand it when it's written out for me, like the essay in "Haydn & His World" that I got this info from.

Curiously enough, the Communist educational dogma regarded rhetoric as a remnant of the... bourgeois past, unsuitable for a healthy education of the working class and not be taught in schools. My autodidactic knowledge of it is very superficial, so I can't say that this is what I really like in Haydn's music. :)

Quote
The end of the Enlightenment, the beginning of the Industrial Age, the civilized world was turned on its head in the first half of the 19th century. Much of that was to the good, but some of it was freakin' horrible! :-\

I'm not particularly fond of the Enlightenment, one of the reasons being precisely that it engendered the Industrial Age. ;D

That being said, you might find it intriguing that, were I to choose when to be born, I'd unhesitatingly say: 1772 (that is, two hundred years earlier than in reality). :)

Quote
That's as may be; simplicity doesn't mandate inaccuracy. Other than opera houses, concert halls didn't exist. Other than theater orchestras, municipal symphonies didn't exist. That's why Beethoven had to scrounge up musicians himself to premiere his 9th symphony in 1824. The information about the Vienna Philharmonic I got from their own website. I know I seem cynical, but from my POV, if it wasn't because there was money to be made being an impresario and putting on concerts, then it wouldn't have been successful. Publicly funded performance venues may very well have been a source of civic pride, as you say. But if they had been a money losing proposition, then they wouldn't have happened. :)

Well, here you have Smith's "invisible hand" at work in a most magnificent manner: the profit-seeker impressarios made good money out of publicly funded venues and orchestras, while orchestras, composers and music lovers had more and more opportunities to perform, compose and hear music. ;D :P

Now, the quality of that music covered the whole range, from the most vulgar and bombastic to the most spiritually uplifting, but the good news was that accessibility improved as time went by.

Quote
Very true. Although what was found wanting in some works by the Romantic generation could well have been precisely what was their appeal to the generation for which they were written. And if we today find those same works wanting, it only shows that our sensibilities and sympathies are far more closely allied to people who lived closer to our times than to the generations that came before.

Agreed. And this can be seen in a strikingly manner from the fact that heavy metal fans are far more likely to appreciate Wagner than Haydn and Mahler than Mozart; some of them even altogether dismiss anything that can be performed with less than a hundred musicians, having chamber music in absolute horror. :(

Now, that's indeed a cultural change that smells like involution, or even utter destruction, to me --- but if it is a direct result of the Romantic era or has other causes I wouldn't know.

Quote
If you could project Classical/Enlightenment sensibilities forward in time (neat trick!) then I think you would find that Mozart would have been disgusted with much of the Romantics, just like Beethoven was with those of his contemporaries whom he heard.

Maybe. Maybe not. We don't know. But this argument applies to Romantics as well. Would Schumann have appreciated Stockhausen? Would Berlioz have appreciated Berg? I don't know, but I tend to think that not too much.

Quote
I am not making personal value judgments here, I'm just saying that failing to please the Romantics enough to "make the Canon" does not mean that the music had no value.

QFT.

Quote
Haydn has lots to say about being original. You should check it out, I think you would find it very interesting. An author to look for is Elaine Sisman.

Thanks, will check it out.

Quote
Nothing is all good, and conversely... there is much to love in that era. But when I review the period from 1760 to 1830 and compare it to 1830 to 1900, I find a lot more to like musically in the earlier 60 years than in the later 70. Does that mean I don't like anything about the later 70? Hell no! I can list 7 composers who wrote some stuff I can certainly live with. :D

You like what you like, period. It's a matter of taste, inclinations, education --- in short, a matter of personality. Far from me to try to turn you into a Mahlerite. 0:)

QuoteDouble ditto. I was brought up with a piano in the house. And other instruments. Family music making time was great fun. It is a gaping hole in modern society to not have that any more.

This is one of the greatest cultural (and I daresay even social and moral) "destructions" in the modern world --- and clearly it is not a Romantic inheritance.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 27, 2011, 05:44:05 PM
The demands of my work sometimes crowd out the pleasure of musical discussion. I don't understand it... ::) :)

You should have been a historian of music specialized in the Classical era. :)

Quote
Yes, certainly that is true. One can almost see a dividing line very shortly after the turn of the century when suddenly a crop of composers (obviously ones who had been composing all along) suddenly began to turn from sonatas to such 'new' things as "potpourris" and many more fantasias than previously. Certainly there were fantasias and capriccios before (just look at the output of CPE Bach!). But now they were the norm. And the various other names were merely fantasias in thin disguise. I read something interesting about Carl Maria von Weber (who is my personal candidate for "Father of Romantic Music"). He found it very difficult indeed to compose in 'sonata form', so any time he composed something that 'required' a sonata-allegro first movement, he always wrote the rest of it first and then forced himself to sit down and finally write the opening movement. Eventually he dispensed with sonata form altogether. And several other contemporaries (2 names that jump off the page are Hummel & Spohr) also went full out with less structured forms.

Interesting. You see, my "theory" is that Classical and Romantic ar not that much strictly artistic labels as constant inclinations of the human mind. Haydn couldn't help being Classic just as Liszt couldn't help being Romantic. Florestan can't help liking Mahler's music just as Gurn can't help disliking it. What gives the character of an entire period is the prevailing mood and mentality which act like both a filter and a framework.

Well, for some people, those who were Romantically inclined long before Romanticism burst out, the filter was too thick and the framework too narrow. Those three fellows you mentioned certainly qualify.

Quote
But there were certainly others who are chronologically Romantics, but whose music is structured Classically, and I will just throw Mendelssohn's name into the mix and you can decide for yourself.

I agree completely.

Quote
As it happens, I am as big a fan as there is of all 4 of those composers, so no animus from me. However, when you get down to the other end of the century, if you take Brahms out of the mix, you will be hard pressed to name a German composer who has much appeal for me. My Romantics mostly spoke Russian. :)

Not a bad thing at all. :)

Quote
But do you see that the music post <>1850 was being tailored for the concert hall?

Certainly, just as music pre <>1850 was tailored for the aristocratic or bourgeois salons. The filter and the framework changed and it couldn't have been any other way.

Quote
It has lost the intimacy that it once had, and also the interactivity between composer and audience.

True and to a certain extent deplorable.

Quote
Maybe you weren't saying that I fail to appreciate Romantic music, but in case you were thinking it, please don't.

I don't --- and didn't all along. 0:)

These are the points where I felt I had to add a comment. I left out from this reply those paragraphs of yours with which either I agree completely or have quibbles not worth mentioning.

Quote
OK, so what else shall we talk about? :D

Rhetorical devices and metaphysical assumptions in Haydn's "The Philosopher" Symphony? ;D :P

Now that's something that really demands the intimacy of a face-to-face, glass-of-port-in-hand conversation. 8)

BTW, hardcore internet fora users as we are, don't you feel that the intimacy and the interactivity of the old days friendly meetings is lost? Related: writing letters used to be an art in itself, without which nobody could pretend to be an educated person; while writing e-mails or sms is nothing of the sort, on the contrary. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2011, 04:26:30 AM

QuoteBTW, hardcore internet fora users as we are, don't you feel that the intimacy and the interactivity of the old days friendly meetings is lost? Related: writing letters used to be an art in itself, without which nobody could pretend to be an educated person; while writing e-mails or sms is nothing of the sort, on the contrary. ;D

Greatly enjoyed your reply. I will think about any possible rebuttals and address them later. Meanwhile, as to this, there is no question. As recently as 15 years ago I purchased a new typewriter which I used extensively for about 3 years to write weekly letters to my parents and friends from home. Then suddenly everyone had email and the typewriter got stuck off in a closet. :'( However, the writing style persisted. You can always tell a person of that generation by their writing style in a post. I read some of my old posts (or even my newer ones that are more extensive) and find that I still try to make them conversational like a letter. The youngsters who were raised on PMs and IMs and texting and the like, simply don't bother with that stuff. So it goes... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 28, 2011, 05:01:05 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2011, 04:26:30 AM
Greatly enjoyed your reply. I will think about any possible rebuttals and address them later. Meanwhile, as to this, there is no question. As recently as 15 years ago I purchased a new typewriter which I used extensively for about 3 years to write weekly letters to my parents and friends from home. Then suddenly everyone had email and the typewriter got stuck off in a closet. :'( However, the writing style persisted. You can always tell a person of that generation by their writing style in a post. I read some of my old posts (or even my newer ones that are more extensive) and find that I still try to make them conversational like a letter. The youngsters who were raised on PMs and IMs and texting and the like, simply don't bother with that stuff. So it goes... :)

8)

Dear Gurn,

I must agree. Why, Aunt Gertrude was telling me just yesterday that young Mr Mahler had sent her youngest two invitations. Of course, we both know that she is the worst of gossips. But still, she is a pleasant sort, and one musn't blame Mr. Mahler too much. After all, the follies of youth!!

But I was thinking about what you wrote earlier about intimacy and I cannot entirely agree. One must not forget that salon music was still very much in voque and there are many composers post 1850 that write most intimate music for the 'lay person' to play. Some of it is quite exquisite, though not all of it attracts the listener equally.

But even if we were to focus on larger scale pieces (it was less than a month ago that I saw Mr. Humperdinck's wonderful opera, Hansel and Gretal - I am sure you would just love this), many of the pieces with 'pyrotechnics' were popular for quite some time. It is only later in the 19th century or early 20th century that many of these pieces began to disappear from the concert hall. I personally believe that we must not ignore the roll that fads have in this dreadful situation.

Well, the post man has arrived to collect the mail, so I must cut short my letter. Our best to you and the family (don't forget to try the new cookie recipe we sent you - they are pure heaven). I hope you manage to get away from work in time to sit with us at Mr. Mahler's new symphony premiere, but we'll hold a spot for you as long as we can (and we understand that they may play some Hadyn quartets in the foyer as we wait, and we know how how much you like those)!!

Ever Your Friend,
Ukrneal

:) ;D :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 28, 2011, 05:15:16 AM

Although it's not befitting for a gentleman to read a letter that is not addressed to him, I must express my fullest agreement with the paragraph above dealing with the survival of intimate chamber music past the fateful year 1850. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2011, 06:00:05 AM

Quote from: ukrneal on January 28, 2011, 05:01:05 AM
Dear Gurn,

I must agree. Why, Aunt Gertrude was telling me just yesterday that young Mr Mahler had sent her youngest two invitations. Of course, we both know that she is the worst of gossips. But still, she is a pleasant sort, and one musn't blame Mr. Mahler too much. After all, the follies of youth!!

But I was thinking about what you wrote earlier about intimacy and I cannot entirely agree. One must not forget that salon music was still very much in voque and there are many composers post 1850 that write most intimate music for the 'lay person' to play. Some of it is quite exquisite, though not all of it attracts the listener equally.

But even if we were to focus on larger scale pieces (it was less than a month ago that I saw Mr. Humperdinck's wonderful opera, Hansel and Gretal - I am sure you would just love this), many of the pieces with 'pyrotechnics' were popular for quite some time. It is only later in the 19th century or early 20th century that many of these pieces began to disappear from the concert hall. I personally believe that we must not ignore the roll that fads have in this dreadful situation.

Well, the post man has arrived to collect the mail, so I must cut short my letter. Our best to you and the family (don't forget to try the new cookie recipe we sent you - they are pure heaven). I hope you manage to get away from work in time to sit with us at Mr. Mahler's new symphony premiere, but we'll hold a spot for you as long as we can (and we understand that they may play some Hadyn quartets in the foyer as we wait, and we know how how much you like those)!!

Ever Your Friend,
Ukrneal

:) ;D :P

My Dear Neal,
I take keyboard in hand to bring you up to date on my latest thoughts on the Mahler/Haydn issue. It is my considered opinion that Herr Mahler's re-orchestration of Op 76 #2 into a full symphony has left something to be desired overall. The descending 5th's in the cello which give the quartet it's name simply lose something when played by 8 basses, 4 bassoons and the entire cello section. Even that would be acceptable except when the Wagner tubas are added in... Herr Mahler's assertion that 'Haydn would have written it that way it he had tubas available' just doesn't hold water for me, so consequently I must regrettably decline your most kind invitation. Perhaps Saturday for the Dvorak gala?

Best Regards,
Your Gurn 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2011, 06:04:32 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 28, 2011, 05:15:16 AM
Although it's not befitting for a gentleman to read a letter that is not addressed to him, I must express my fullest agreement with the paragraph above dealing with the survival of intimate chamber music past the fateful year 1850. 8)

I didn't mean ALL intimacy, rather, that the balance has clearly shifted. Classical piano sonatas, even Beethoven's, were NOT composed to be played on a stage in front of 1000 people! Even if one likes them that way, which is an objection that I frequently hear, that doesn't change the facts. :)

I would be willing to wager that Haydn's Symphony #44 was premiered in a more intimate setting (including the musicians and all, not talking about the venue so much) than Brahms' 1st string quartet. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 28, 2011, 06:09:05 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2011, 06:00:05 AM
My Dear Neal,
I take keyboard in hand to bring you up to date on my latest thoughts on the Mahler/Haydn issue. It is my considered opinion that Herr Mahler's re-orchestration of Op 76 #2 into a full symphony has left something to be desired overall. The descending 5th's in the cello which give the quartet it's name simply lose something when played by 8 basses, 4 bassoons and the entire cello section. Even that would be acceptable except when the Wagner tubas are added in... Herr Mahler's assertion that 'Haydn would have written it that way it he had tubas available' just doesn't hold water for me, so consequently I must regrettably decline your most kind invitation. Perhaps Saturday for the Dvorak gala?

Best Regards,
Your Gurn 8)

I would continue, but I suspect we would lose many of the rest. That is, they might come and hunt us down!! But I do so enjoy the Victorian letter, I must say. They say so much in the way they say it, not just what they say.

Thought I'd mention that I am still enjoying the Fischer Symphony series on Brilliant. I still have a long way to go, but very much enjoying the music!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2011, 06:13:47 AM

Quote from: ukrneal on January 28, 2011, 06:09:05 AM
I would continue, but I suspect we would lose many of the rest. That is, they might come and hunt us down!! But I do so enjoy the Victorian letter, I must say. They say so much in the way they say it, not just what they say.

Thought I'd mention that I am still enjoying the Fischer Symphony series on Brilliant. I still have a long way to go, but very much enjoying the music!

:D I actually learned all that in school. I have vivid memories of teacher smacking my hand with a ruler if I wasn't colorful enough for her taste... :)

I am delighted that you are enjoying the Fischer Haydn. They are my first recommendation whenever someone expresses an interest in Haydn symphonies en masse. IMO, they are the perfect introduction on all counts. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Al Moritz on January 28, 2011, 06:36:27 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 24, 2011, 04:17:09 PMEarlier music was much more demanding in its listening requirements, however its far more limited audience was capable of dealing with it on the composer's terms. When music's audience expanded exponentially in the early 19th century, the composer didn't take a chance that they wouldn't be able to digest the music. The contrast between 1775 and 1850 is so great that one can scarcely call it all the same thing; performance of music. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
BBC Scottish SO / Atherton Lawrence Power (Viola) - Hindemith WoO 'Trauermusik' for Viola & Orchestra

I think what you said about earlier music and its audiences also holds for contemporary New Music.

And there is no coughing in dedicated New Music concerts, only close attention.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Al Moritz on January 28, 2011, 06:40:44 AM

Gurn, I do not quite agree with your view of the Romantic era. You mention the piano pyrotechnics of List, but Liszt has well structured compositions that make him a master of rhetoric a la Haydn. For example, "Totentanz", "Oberon" from Annees de Pelerinage Vol. 1, "Fantasia quasi una sonata" from Annees de Pelerinage Vol. 2, or the Sonata in B minor.

Rimsky-Korsakov and Tchaikovsky whom you like tend to focus less on structure (as does Dvorak except in his last masterpieces), whereas Mahler's music whom you don't like has a lot of structure. And Beethoven and Bruckner are kings of structure and sublime musical rhetoric. I would even think that probably for Bruckner the construction of giant musical structures ('cathedrals of sound') was more important than "romantic expression".

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2011, 07:31:40 AM

Quote from: Al Moritz on January 28, 2011, 06:40:44 AM
Gurn, I do not quite agree with your view of the Romantic era. You mention the piano pyrotechnics of List, but Liszt has well structured compositions that make him a master of rhetoric a la Haydn. For example, "Totentanz", "Oberon" from Annees de Pelerinage Vol. 1, "Fantasia quasi una sonata" from Annees de Pelerinage Vol. 2, or the Sonata in B minor.

Rimsky-Korsakov and Tchaikovsky whom you like tend to focus less on structure (as does Dvorak except in his last masterpieces), whereas Mahler's music whom you don't like has a lot of structure. And Beethoven and Bruckner are kings of structure and sublime musical rhetoric. I would even think that probably for Bruckner the construction of giant musical structures ('cathedrals of sound') was more important than "romantic expression".

Hi, Al,
Well yes, one can't possibly make a generalization about anyone or anything that will fit all cases. Without having written it out each time, I will say that I am speaking way more about trends than about hard and fast certainties. Even the Classico-Romantic dichotomy is nothing to me, I look at them as trends towards one side or the other, never as a complete change from one style to another. At some point in time I posted a chart that I made (simple but effective) that illustrated that idea. All you are saying is true, but I'm not really saying otherwise, I just didn't spell it out. My bad. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on January 28, 2011, 12:14:43 PM

Wow,...cough cough,... this Thread's got some dust on it,... cough cough...

Well, I fiiiiinally got the Lindsay's Op.76 4-6,... after a month, and two attempts at purchase (cheap, though). I'm starting of with No.5 'Largo'. My first reaction is that the first mvmt. isn't the greatest I've ever heard, but then, in these matters, everyone has something else to recommend them, so I can't possibly remember who 'does' this mvmt. to my specifications. The Lindsays here just don't seem as pointed as I would have thought they would take it. It's a perfectly blended reading,... I could simply be getting spoiled here! ;) ;D

However, as I'm listening to the menuet, I'm finding it, too, seems a bit smooth. Yes, in the minor key trio section, the cello certainly isn't digging in as much as I've heard in others,... though, there is really no loss. This is very strange to me. These readings are about the 'straightest' thing I've ever heard from this Lindsay/Haydn Cycle. Very curious.

The Largo mvmt., as one would have thought, is taken very slowly and very intensely, surely one of the most deeply felt interpretations,... not too many allow themselves to take it really nice and slow. The cello in particular, has a rapt, reserved intensity that lingers in the mind.

The Finale has us back in proper Lindsay territory: blisteringly fast Finales! Here, the 'point' appears to be back, and it's over before you know it, but my overall impression here is that the microphone placement is 'different' than in other installments (including the other Op.76). I will have to check the recordings. Of course, I'll give it a 25% that this is all in my head, but I question why I would have such a strange reaction? we'll see

The 'Sunrise' is next. The Lindsays confound my expectations by taking the placid opening a touch quicker than all others I've heard, setting the stage for quite a thrilling first mvmt. indeed. The 'point' that I missed in the previous SQ seems to be here. Definitely, kudos to lead violinist Cropper for his great ideas! Again, though, I'm wondering if we have the same recording situation as with other Lindsays? Again, I feel as though my ears are playing tricks on me. Hmmm. It's almost as if, when something is played just so, and it sounds off. Very strange. And I don't think they're off,... I'm almost getting that HD effect,... too clear???

Anyhoo...

As I hear the opening of the slow mvmt., I realize I'm not that familiar with it,...huh? So, I move onto the all important menuet, one of my favorites. Well,... hmmm,... once again, I'm getting that they're-so-on-it's-scary sound,... it's almost disturbing. They are skirting,... nay, dancing... on the edge of too much, but, they're right there. They are certainly messing with my preconceived notions!

Haha,... oy!,... this Finale is something!! NO ONE take the point the Lindsays do here in the opening! All the 'point' that seemed lacking in the 'Largo' is here in spades. This certainly just shot into first place for this mvmt. Excellent!! I'll admit, it almost sounds Beethovenian! They imbue every phrase with impish snippiness. Sounds like Hobbits!

The all important No.6. Before listening, I'm going to predict Great Things for the first two mvmts. Well, ok, the first mvmt.,... what can you do?,... it sounds like what it's supposed to sound like. It's frightening how simplicity and anonymity are sometimes the Greatest Things, no? Ah,... is that a moment of will I heard? I am hearing nice things from the cello. They certainly aren't afraid to do things with a little more passion, as witnessed in the middle section.

Haha, here I was, expecting Great Things, and realize that it is enough just to play the piece, haha!

The menuet is pretty much a carbon copy of every other Great Performance. Nothing to report but pleasure. And, as expected, the Finale is blistering. The scratchy, pointy sound that I'd been missing earlier is here in the opening,... those quick, short, sharp notes downward. This is probably the quickest by a few seconds.

So, excellent, and disturbingly so!?! :o Yea,... I don't even know what I meant by that. ??? I don't have any of the compares with me, so I can't go into any further detail, but, suffice to say, that day will have to come now! ;)

Whew!

Now, as I see, we're approaching Page42, and you know what that means! Page50 is after that!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 29, 2011, 05:14:30 AM

Gurn, in the light of our latest exchange you might find the following interesting.

To this...

Quote from: lescamil on January 28, 2011, 10:14:27 PM
The idea of a work intended to be for concert performance in a formal setting serves as my personal qualification for a work to be called "classical music" (and yes, I realize that the term "classical music" is flawed, so I also call it "concert music").

...I replied thus:

Quote from: Florestan on January 29, 2011, 05:04:57 AM
This criterion disqualifies as "classical music" anything written prior to the advent of the formal setting of the concert hall --- Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert included. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 29, 2011, 05:16:37 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2011, 06:04:32 AM
I would be willing to wager that Haydn's Symphony #44 was premiered in a more intimate setting (including the musicians and all, not talking about the venue so much) than Brahms' 1st string quartet. :)

Probably, but the music itself is as intimate as any Haydn SQ. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 29, 2011, 05:18:58 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 29, 2011, 05:14:30 AM
Gurn, in the light of our latest exchange you might find the following interesting.

To this:

I replied this:

:D That's too funny! And 100% accurate. Yes, if you eliminate by definition anything composed before <> 1850, you really narrowed the field! 0:)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Smithson String Quartet - K 174 Quintet #1 in Bb for Strings 4th mvmt - Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on January 29, 2011, 05:53:12 AM

As posted in my Symphony Saturday thread:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,17780.msg486283.html#msg486283

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on January 29, 2011, 08:06:41 AM

Do not want to lose this discussion, so brought it over here:

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 29, 2011, 07:04:43 AM
Following Bill's lead, Haydn Symphony #77, Goodman and his giant harpsichord leading the Hanover Band

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/oct2009/Haydn767778Goodman.jpg)

Sarge

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 29, 2011, 07:15:03 AM
Bill, take a look on Presto Classical:

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/search.php?searchString=goodman+haydn

IMO, Sarge is right, the bottom line is "giant harpsichord". ;D

Quote from: Bogey on January 29, 2011, 07:21:26 AM
That may be a reason to snap one up. Instead of getting another that sounds similar, this one could add a new wrinkle that have never heard. However, the word "giant" has me a bit worried. ;D

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 29, 2011, 07:34:22 AM
I love Goodman's Haydn...but hate what I view as a very egotistical continuo part (way too prominent--artificially induced obviously--you'd never hear it like this in a concert hall) in music that really doesn't need a continuo. But I overlook that fault and just enjoy his rough-edged, raucous and joyous band. Wish he'd been able to complete the cycle.

Sarge

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 29, 2011, 07:46:01 AM
;D Well, other than being freakin' hilarious, there is little to justify that sales pitch. True enough, Goodman does play continuo on that disk, but it isn't really gigantic-sounding, in fact, it is hard to even pick it out. That controversy between Hogwood and Goodman on using continuo or not was probably only relevant to the visual aspect of seeing it being played. It would take a giant harpsichord to be heard over a band of 18 players. :D

That said, I really do enjoy the Goodman set. I think it was Lethe who encouraged me to buy them, and no regrets at all. BRO was/is the way to go, Bill, I got the entire lot for $50 or so. :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Combattimento Consort Amsterdam \ de Vriend Paul van Zelm (Horn) - K 386b 412 514 Concerto #1 in D for Horn 1st mvmt - Allegro

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 29, 2011, 07:50:21 AM
Hey, Sarge,
Well, clearly we don't agree on the prominence of the continuo, and also on which side of the argument to believe vis-a-vis its propriety (I'm actually neutral, I can take it or leave it, and I think it was authentically used sometimes and not used other times). However, we agree on the performances, it is just what you said. Including the unfinished lament. One more disk, that's all it would have taken to get 79-81. And Hogwood stopped in the same damned place! Damn their eyes! >:(

8)

Quote from: masolino on January 29, 2011, 07:57:46 AM
-oo- giant harpsichord continuo : zero harpsichord continuo -oo-

I think Goodman and Hogwood complement each other pretty well ;)

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/54/17/c298024128a0838d7b122010.L._AA300_.jpg)
Just put this one in. On first impression, it does not distinguish iteself from the Hogwood or the Fischer, BUT I have to give them all a closer listen. I am guessing that I could order them in preference, but a decent listen of each is needed.....however, Hogwood in a knee-jerk.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 29, 2011, 08:16:06 AM

Quote from: Bogey on January 29, 2011, 08:06:41 AM
Do not want to lose this discussion, so brought it over here:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/54/17/c298024128a0838d7b122010.L._AA300_.jpg)
Just put this one in. On first impression, it does not distinguish iteself from the Hogwood or the Fischer, BUT I have to give them all a closer listen. I am guessing that I could order them in preference, but a decent listen of each is needed.....however, Hogwood in a knee-jerk.

Well, it is the right size orchestra, and they do play awfully well. I think that overall I would have liked a tad more liveliness out of them, but for a modern instrument ensemble, they have a lot going for them.

It goes without saying that I prefer some PI versions, I think Hogwood & Goodman are the only choices, since Brüggen, Pinnock, Kuijkens, Solomons and even Freiburg Baroque all gave that entire chunk of the repertoire a miss. Like Haydn jumped from the Stürm und Dräng to the Paris in one fell swoop... ::) :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on January 29, 2011, 08:16:42 AM

No way am I going down that easily! >:D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on January 29, 2011, 09:00:27 AM

I think you should turn this into a postmodern novel.

Control+Replace "Haydn" for some kind of elusive lover and you've got a great story.

Oh, I forget. You don't do Control + stuff.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on January 29, 2011, 04:04:24 PM

Quote from: Herman on January 29, 2011, 09:00:27 AM
I think you should turn this into a postmodern novel.

Control+Replace "Haydn" for some kind of elusive lover and you've got a great story.

Oh, I forget. You don't do Control + stuff.

You've been waiting all week to use that one, haven't you? ;) ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 30, 2011, 12:00:58 PM

At the suggestion of a curious member, I will try here to categorize the different phases and styles of Haydn's symphonies. It is a given that dealing with 108 works (plus a few others thrown in for good measure) makes it difficult to get a grip. In the particular case of Haydn's symphonies, the difficulties are greatly enhanced by such little foibles as his habit of not dating manuscripts. The distribution system at the time didn't help anything either, which is to say that if you, a visiting musician asked Haydn for a copy of a symphony of his, he would say OK, sit over there and copy it out from this. So there are lots of sets of parts with no provenance. And to make it more confusing still, a major fire at Esterhazy in 1779 destroyed the main opera house and its contents, including lots of Haydn's manuscripts. So extant copies are not originals, making the commonly used tools of paper and ink and handwriting analysis virtually useless.

Still, some talented and dedicated researchers have spent lifetimes figuring all this stuff out, and there are at least a few things that are settled.

The original chronology of the symphonies was first published by Eusebius Mandyczewski, the archivist for the Gesselschaft der Musikfreunde in Vienna after the famous Max Pohl died. Mandyczewski's list, published in 1907, has never been challenged as to its contents. Nothing has been removed as a result of further study, and only 2 things have been added (Symphonies A & B (107 & 108)). However, the chronology has been changed all to be damned. When I refer to a work here as #31, it is the Mandyczewski/Hoboken number. As long as you remember that that work is likely to be almost anything BUT the 31st symphony, you will be on solid ground... :D

In addition to chronology, there are categories that these works neatly fit into. Many of these lasted for his entire career, and even in his first 20 or so works all the major categories have appeared.

The actual musical terms are cribbed from Oxford Composer Companion to Haydn by David Wyn Jones. The historical contexts are pretty much the result of reading many books and putting together the pieces myself. I would like to footnote the entire thing, but I'm not going to. Looking up citation constantly is a pain in the ass, to be honest. Anyway, it's just us guys here (and Sara). :)

The Periods

How many periods do you divide 108 into? The more, obviously, the smaller they are. I like that, although if there is no stylistic difference then there's no point either in making yet another grouping. Nine is such a pleasant number, let's try that:

1. Symphonies composed before 1761. Why 1761? That's when he went to work for the Esterhazy's. These are they: 1, 2, 4, 5, 10, 11, 15, 18, 20, 27, 32, 33, 37 & 107 (Symphony A). That is numerical order, not chronological.

2. 1761c – 1763c – this is a group of 6 symphonies which are rather on the mysterious side. They fall into that group that are virtually impossible to date properly because no original manuscript copies exist. They are: 3, 14, 16, 17, 19, 25, 36 & 108 (Symphony B). It is my opinion that these works are from earlier rather than later, and probably were composed during the short term of service with Count Morzin.

3. Early Esterhazy Symphonies (1761 – 1765) – The first group of works composed specifically for the Esterhazys. I will add 6 works at the beginning which I feel belong there. You can accept or reject them as you will, it is all semantics anyway! In March/April 1761 Haydn started his employment. His first works were a set of 6 miniature symphonies in 4 movements each, fully orchestrated. He didn't call them symphonies, rather they were Scherzandi (Jokes). They each lasted <>10 minutes. You can find them in Hob II:33-38. So Hoboken calls them divertimentos for multiple instruments and I respectfully disagree. In any case the remainder of the output from that period includes the following symphonies: 6, 7, 8, 9, 12, 13, 21, 22, 23, 24, 28, 29, 30, 31, 34, 40 & 72.

4. Esterhazy Symphonies – 1766 – 1772. Ok, it's Stürm und Dräng time. Haydn's so-called crisis years. The symphonies written in these years are his most popular excepting the London's, and it's a near thing with those too! They include: 26, 35, 38, 39, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 52, 58, 59 & 106 (which is believed to be actually the overture to the opera 'Le Pescatrici' (the Fisher Girls)).

5. Esterhazy Symphonies – 1772 – 1781. A large and very mixed bag of works here. One characteristic that they all have in common is that there is not a single minor key work in the bunch! Stark contrast to the period immediately preceding, with its outsized proportion of minor and unusual (B major! :o ) keys. Clearly there are some works that were put together from other things, theatrical overtures for example, and possibly even instrumental music. An example is the slow movement of #65, which is believed to have started life as some incidental music for a production of Hamlet! What extent Haydn's main preoccupation in this time as opera impresario might have affected his symphonic work is unknown, but many works in this time have the kiss of the theater to them. They are the following: 50, 51, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 73, 74 & 75.

6. Symphonies from 1782 – 1784 – Call them what you will, but my choice is that these are Haydn's first mature symphonies in the Classical Style. They were composed for a trip to London where Haydn was to direct their premiere, but eventually sold to a Parisian publisher when that fell through. They are actually 2 sets of 3, just like the Paris Symphonies. I consider them to be neglected masterpieces; you be the judge. They are 76, 77, 78, 79, 80 & 81.

7. Paris Symphonies – 1785 – 1786 – Commissioned in 1784 by the Concerts de la Loge Olympique, a Paris concert organization. 3 were completed in 1785 and 3 more in 1786, but all 6 were first performed in the 1787 concert season. Haydn claimed the order of composition to be 87, 85, 83, 84, 86 & 82 but when he sold them to Artaria to publish, they ordered the set 82-87 and those numbers stuck.

8. Symphonies 1787 – 1789 – Just 5 in these years, although he was plenty busy writing other than symphonies. Any of us who are string quartet fans will have heard the story of the Tost Quartets, which Haydn entrusted to violinist Johann Tost to take to Paris for publication, and which he may or may not have ever gotten his money for. Anyway, on that same trip, Tost also had with him the manuscripts for 2 symphonies, now called #88 & 89. They were published by Silber in Paris. They are very likely the first symphonies since 1761 that weren't composed to be played at Esterhazy before anything else was done with them. Too bad for the Prince: #88 in G is one of my very favorites! :) #90-92 was another set of 3 that were originally composed for the Concerts de la Loge Olympique. Haydn was being Haydn though, and simultaneously sold them to a German publisher. #92 also served the purpose of being Haydn's doctoral dissertation in 1793 when he received his doctorate from Oxford. Good choice!

9. London Symphonies – 1791 – 1795 – 12 symphonies #93 – 104. Also the sinfonia concertante #105. The first 6 were commissioned by Salomon for the 1791 & 92 concert season, 99 – 101 for Salomon's 1794 season, and the final 3 for the Opera Concerts of 1795.

So that should cover all 108 plus the 6 Scherzandi. I hope I haven't missed any, or worse yet, duplicated any! If anyone is keen to discuss anything specific about any work or group of works, this is as good a place for it as any. I will also add in the corrected chronology that we talked about a few months ago. It should be timely located right here. I am hoping to expand on this by adding information about different types of symphonies and what made them different and why etc. I hope you will find that of interest also. And some further info on the orchestras he had to work with over the years and how that might have affected different compositions.

Cheers,
8)

----------------
Now playing:
Smithson String Quartet - K 563 Divertimento (Trio) in Eb for Strings 6th mvmt - Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 30, 2011, 12:10:32 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 30, 2011, 12:00:58 PM
At the suggestion of a curious member, I will try here to categorize the different phases and styles of Haydn's symphonies.
Cheers,
8)

Thanks for that Gurn. Very helpful!! I had never realized they could split into so many periods. Will be useful to think about as I explore them...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 30, 2011, 12:22:14 PM

Quote from: ukrneal on January 30, 2011, 12:10:32 PM
Thanks for that Gurn. Very helpful!! I had never realized they could split into so many periods. Will be useful to think about as I explore them...

Y'r welcome, Neal. Well, I tried first lumping them together in bigger chunks, but they didn't convey enough information that way. There really is quite a bit of diversity in there, which makes sense, spanning 37 years (1758 - 1795) like that. There is a lot of thought yet to be given to the earliest ones. If I was young and educated, I would love to have a go at it. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 30, 2011, 12:39:20 PM

I grin at the karmic happenstance that this was posted on page 104.... :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood - Hob 01 003 Symphony in D 2nd mvmt - Andante moderato

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on January 30, 2011, 01:13:35 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 30, 2011, 12:39:20 PM
I grin at the karmic happenstance that this was posted on page 104.... :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood - Hob 01 003 Symphony in D 2nd mvmt - Andante moderato

I only have 52 pages - you must be displaying five posts a page instead of the ten default.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 30, 2011, 01:22:41 PM

Quote from: Leon on January 30, 2011, 01:13:35 PM
I only have 52 pages - you must be displaying five posts a page instead of the ten default.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Page.jpg)

No, I submit it is YOU, sir, who is displaying 20 posts per page instead of the standard 10! Have at you! :D

I'm sure it is no coincidence that the numbers are half or double.... :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood - Hob 01 007 Symphony in C 2nd mvmt - Recitativo: Adagio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 30, 2011, 01:59:28 PM

Quote from: Opus106 on September 11, 2010, 11:24:50 AM
Whipped up a little script which put all the raw data (thanks, Gurn) into table tags. :) Still, I could format them only so much because I think BBCode tables are not as configurable -- i.e., don't have as many attributes -- as HTML ones.

HRL
Hob
Key
Year
Name
1
1
D
1758
2
37
C
1759 - 1760
3
18
G
1759 - 1760
4
19
D
1759 - 1760
5
2
C
1759 - 1760
6
108
Bb
1759 - 1760
Symphony B
7
16
Bb
1759 - 1760
8
17
F
1759 - 1760
9
15
D
1759 - 1760
10
4
D
1759 - 1760
11
10
D
1759 - 1760
12
32
C
1759 - 1760
13
5
A
1759 - 1760
14
11
E
1759 - 1760
15
33
C
1759 - 1760
16
27
G
1759 - 1760
18
3
G
1759 - 1760
18a
107
Bb
1759 - 1760
Symphony A - also in version for stringquartet
19
20
C
1759 - 1760
20
6
D
1761
Matin / Morning
21
7
C
1761
Midi / Afternoon
22
8
G
1761
Soir / Evening
23
9
C
1762
24
25
C
1762
25
14
A
1761 - 1762
26
36
Eb
1761 - 1762
27
12
E
1763
28
13
D
1763
29
40
F
1763
30
72
D
1763
31
21
A
1764
32
22
Eb
1764
Philosopher
33
23
G
1764
34
24
D
1764
35
30
C
1765
Alleluia
36
29
E
1765
37
31
D
1765
Hornsignal / Auf dem Anstand
38
28
A
1765
39
34
D - d
1765
40
39
g
1766 - 1767
41
35
Bb
01/12/1767
42
59
A
1767
Fire
43
38
C
1767 - 1768
44
44
e
1772
Trauer / Mourning
45
58
F
1768
46
26
d
1768 - 1769
Lamentazione / Weihnacht / Christmas
47
41
C
1770 - 1771
48
48
C
1768 - 1770
Maria Theresia
49
49
f
1770 - 1771
La Passione
50
52
c
1770 - 1771
51
43
Eb
1770 - 1771
Merkur / Mercury
52
42
D
1771
53
51
B
1771 - 1773
54
45
f#
1772
Farewell
55
46
B
1772
56
47
G
1772
Palindrome
57
65
C
1772 - 1773
58
50
C
1773
In Nomine Domini
59
64
A
1773
Tempora Mutantur
60
54
G
1774
61
55
Eb
1774
Der Schulmeister / Schoolmaster
62
56
C
1774
63
57
D
1774
64
60
C
1774
Il distratto
65
68
Bb
1774 - 1775
66
66
Bb
1775 - 1776
67
69
C
1775 - 1776
Loudon
68
67
F
1775 - 1776
69
61
D
1776
70
53
D
1777 - 1779
L'Imperiale
71
63
C
1777 - 1780
La Roxelane
72
70
D
1779
Mit Pauken und Trumpeten
73
75
Bb
1779
74
71
Bb
1779 - 1780
75
62
D
1779 - 1781
Variation on No. 53
76
74
Eb
1780 - 1781
77
73
D
1780 - 1782
La Chasse, first the ouverture of the opera La fedelta premiata
78
76
Eb
1782
79
77
Bb
1782
80
78
c
1782
81
79
F
1784
novembre 1784
82
80
d
1784
8-11-1784
83
81
G
1784
8-11-1784
84
87
A
1785
85
85
Bb
1785
La Reine / Queen
86
83
g
1785
La Poule / Hen
87
84
Eb
1786
88
86
D
1786
89
82
C
1786
L'Ours / Bear
90
88
G
1787
91
89
F
1787
92
90
C
1788
93
91
Eb
1788
94
92
G
1789
Oxford
95
95
c
1791
96
96
D
1791
Miracle
97
93
D
1791
98
94
G
1792
Mit dem Paukenschlag / Surprise
99
98
Bb
1792
100
97
C
1792
101
99
Eb
1793
102
100
G
1794
Military
103
101
D
1794
Clock / Uhr
104
102
Bb
1794
105
103
Eb
1795
Mit dem Paukenwirbel / Drumroll
106
104
D
1795
London / Salomon

105
Bb
1792
Sinfonia concertante

106
D
1796
only 1 part, ouverture to opera Le pescatrici

Navneeth did such a lovely job with making this table that it seems silly to try anything but giving it a bump. Basically, this compares the latest scholarship with the chronology in Hoboken. You can see the multitude of changes! :)

----------------
Now playing:
Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood - Hob 01 007 Symphony in C 4th mvmt - Finale: Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on January 30, 2011, 04:50:51 PM

Thanks my friend. Just what this "curious member" was looking for. Appreciate the time you put into this and it will make my Papa symphony listening that much more enlightened. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 30, 2011, 05:06:52 PM

Quote from: Bogey on January 30, 2011, 04:50:51 PM
Thanks my friend. Just what this "curious member" was looking for. Appreciate the time you put into this and it will make my Papa symphony listening that much more enlightened. :)

Bill, I remember when I first started getting into classical music 20 years ago, my wife had misgivings; A> because she knows me and B> because I told her that I didn't really need to buy any books and stuff because I just wanted to enjoy the music. Her reply; See A above... ::) Anyway, what I discovered is that the more I knew, the more fulfilling my listening was. I know that flies in the face of some of our philosophers here, but there it is. So if making this info available increases your listening enjoyment, then that is sufficient unto the day. 0:)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Concilium musicum Wien \ Angerer - Hob 01 008 Symphony in G 4th mvmt - La Tempesta: Presto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on January 30, 2011, 05:07:08 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 30, 2011, 01:22:41 PM
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Page.jpg)

No, I submit it is YOU, sir, who is displaying 20 posts per page instead of the standard 10! Have at you! :D

I'm sure it is no coincidence that the numbers are half or double.... :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood - Hob 01 007 Symphony in C 2nd mvmt - Recitativo: Adagio

Ah, you have solved the mystery, I was displaying 20, seems that 20 is the forum default and not 10 as I assumed.

Excellent posts from you and others on Haydn symphonies - I will certainly take advantage of this chart as I do the date tagging to my Haydn tracks.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 30, 2011, 05:14:31 PM

Quote from: Leon on January 30, 2011, 05:07:08 PM
Ah, you have solved the mystery, I was displaying 20, seems that 20 is the forum default and not 10 as I assumed.

Excellent posts from you and others on Haydn symphonies - I will certainly take advantage of this chart as I do the date tagging to my Haydn tracks.

:D Well, it wasn't so hard, I looked to see that there were 1037 post in the thread and did the math. :) I didn't know that you could change the number of posts on a page. I thought it was written in stone. Although I do reverse the order of my posts to put the most recent first. It's a mixed blessing.

Thanks, you mentioned in The Corner that you were doing a project like that. Along those lines, I am currently listening to an "Album" titled '1761', which gives me plenty of nice listening. I'm waiting to see how your project with other composers turns out. I can pretty much fill your needs with Haydn, well beyond symphonies. But in doing so, I learned the challenges of trying to date works from that time, even with the most famous composer of the age! :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Consortium Classicum / Klöcker - Hob 02 14 Divertimento in C for 2 Clarinets & 2 Horns 3rd mvmt - Adagio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on January 30, 2011, 05:29:51 PM

Gurn - many thanks for your post and also for pointing out the 1782–84 set: I wasn't aware of it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 30, 2011, 05:34:57 PM

Quote from: Lethe on January 30, 2011, 05:29:51 PM
Gurn - many thanks for your post and also for pointing out the 1782–84 set: I wasn't aware of it.

You're welcome, Sara. And knowing your tastes, let me add to that a bit; #'s 79 & 81 are the only 2 symphonies that have never been recorded on period instruments! I have #80 in d minor done (nicely!) by the Freiburg Baroque, but its mates are still virginal. I find it odd somehow that if either the Goodman set OR the Hogwood set had extended 1 volume further... :-\

C'est la vie.

8)

----------------
Now playing:
The English Concert \ Pinnock Standage - Hob 07a 04 Concerto in G for Violin 3rd mvmt - Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on January 30, 2011, 05:40:23 PM

If only record labels could join the dots like you can - they would realise that such a coupling would give them serious bragging rights to a "premiere period instrument performances" note on the cover.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 30, 2011, 05:46:19 PM

Quote from: Lethe on January 30, 2011, 05:40:23 PM
If only record labels could join the dots like you can - they would realise that such a coupling would give them serious bragging rights to a "premiere period instrument performances" note on the cover.

:D Well, of course, the big difference between us and them is that they don't give a s**t. You're right though, they love to put those little asterisks and the stickers on the shrink wrap "world premiere". When I first began hunting them, I thought I just wasn't being persistent enough. How wrong I was... :-\

8)

----------------
Now playing:
The Hanover Band / Goodman - Hob 01 006 Symphony in D 2nd mvmt - Adagio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on January 30, 2011, 06:00:01 PM

I'm playing the 80 Freiburger disc now. It reminds me of a reoccurring issue I have - I easily get "spoiled" with Haydn. This must be the first Haydn symphony I've played in a few weeks, and I'm shocked as usual by the richness of invention. When I listen to many discs in a short period of time, I don't know if it's my concentration or over-familiarity, but I become desensitised to these qualities.

This piece in particular has a first movement which is almost a mockery of the routine templates other classical period (admittedly, mainly chronologically earlier) symphonies adhered to - it has the same "shifting" quality the beginning of the 45th has, although in a rather different mood.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 30, 2011, 06:05:59 PM

Quote from: Lethe on January 30, 2011, 06:00:01 PM
I'm playing the 80 Freiburger disc now. It reminds me of a reoccurring issue I have - I easily get "spoiled" with Haydn. This must be the first Haydn symphony I've played in a few weeks, and I'm shocked as usual by the richness of invention. When I listen to many discs in a short period of time, I don't know if it's my concentration or over-familiarity, but I become desensitised to these qualities.

This piece in particular has a first movement which is almost a mockery of the routine templates other classical period (admittedly, mainly chronologically earlier) symphonies adhered to - it has the same "shifting" quality the beginning of the 45th has, although in a rather different mood.

I know what you mean, on both counts. Since Haydn makes up about 40% of my listening for the last 2 years while I have been working on learning him, I get overwhelmed sometimes by trying to get my mind around everything that is going on there. It isn't easy, not for me anyway. Papa Haydn my ass! ::)

And #80 is the great hidden masterpiece, IMO. I have mentioned it a few times when people post about what Haydn symphony etc? but I get drowned out by the London crowd or the Stürm und Dräng'ers. But it doesn't need any help from me, other than to get people to listen to it. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Haydn Sinfonietta Wien \ Huss - Hob 01 012 Symphony in E 2nd mvmt - Adagio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on January 30, 2011, 06:11:59 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 30, 2011, 06:05:59 PM
And #80 is the great hidden masterpiece, IMO. I have mentioned it a few times when people post about what Haydn symphony etc? but I get drowned out by the London crowd or the Stürm und Dräng'ers. But it doesn't need any help from me, other than to get people to listen to it. :)

I am a card-carrying member of the second group :P Nobody will get in the way of me forcing people to listen to nos.39 and 46.

Edit: reached the minuet. At one point I felt that Haydn was an unsurpassed master of both the minuet and finale. In particular he is the only composer whose minuets are always worth listening closely to, always richly melodic, and never annoying. But then I realised he was also a master of the opening allegro and slow movement too, rendering such statements less dramatic...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on February 05, 2011, 02:05:14 AM

For a moment I thought Gurn would hate me for posting this... 8) ...Or at least for a while ;) But fortunately this disc is available in the US! :)

Stumbled at the site of K617 (one of the labels that Gurn has a love/hate relationship with ;)) upon this interesting issue of the basset horn versions by Haydn himself of some of his trios, including a piece for table glasses as a reference to Mozart's example. And on period instruments by an ensemble I can absolutely vouch for on account of their Mozart recordings..

More info, including a sample, HERE (http://www.cd-baroque.com/index.php/eng/accueil/disques_k617/catalogue/les_raretes_de_k617/trios_esterhazy_pour_cors_de_basset) and at Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Trios-Esterhazy-Pour-Basset/dp/B003RKN4EO/ref=tmm_msc_title_0).

Sounds absolutely sublime fun to me, as usual with this ensemble. :)

(http://www.cd-baroque.com/var/cdbaroque/storage/images/accueil/disques_k617/catalogue/les_raretes_de_k617/trios_esterhazy_pour_cors_de_basset/31610-1-fre-FR/trios_esterhazy_pour_cors_de_basset_full.jpg)

Trio n° 96 en sol mineur
Trio n° 97 en si b majeur
Adagio (Trio n° 123) en sol majeur pour table de verres
Trio n° 65 en fa majeur
Trio n° 87 en sol mineur
Trio n° 69 en si b majeur
Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 05, 2011, 10:03:03 AM

Quote from: Que on February 05, 2011, 02:05:14 AM
For a moment I thought Gurn would hate me for posting this... 8) ...Or at least for a while ;) But fortunately this disc is available in the US! :)

Yes, we heathen must have been good for once, since they have tossed us a bone. :)

QuoteStumbled at the site of K617 (one of the labels that Gurn has a love/hate relationship with ;)) upon this interesting issue of the basset horn versions by Haydn himself of some of his trios, including a piece for table glasses as a reference to Mozart's example. And on period instruments by an ensemble I can absolutely vouch for on account of their Mozart recordings..

More info, including a sample, HERE (http://www.cd-baroque.com/index.php/eng/accueil/disques_k617/catalogue/les_raretes_de_k617/trios_esterhazy_pour_cors_de_basset) and at Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Trios-Esterhazy-Pour-Basset/dp/B003RKN4EO/ref=tmm_msc_title_0).

Sounds absolutely sublime fun to me, as usual with this ensemble. :)

(http://www.cd-baroque.com/var/cdbaroque/storage/images/accueil/disques_k617/catalogue/les_raretes_de_k617/trios_esterhazy_pour_cors_de_basset/31610-1-fre-FR/trios_esterhazy_pour_cors_de_basset_full.jpg)

Trio n° 96 en sol mineur
Trio n° 97 en si b majeur
Adagio (Trio n° 123) en sol majeur pour table de verres
Trio n° 65 en fa majeur
Trio n° 87 en sol mineur
Trio n° 69 en si b majeur
Q

And you know, it is quite interesting that Haydn did arrange these himself. Guessing here that he found them totally unusable in their Baryton incarnation. Many of the trios were arranged for string trio, which I feel was a less successful venture. That wasn't by Haydn though. Anyway, I am delighted with this discovery, as I wasn't aware that any of that lot had been recorded at all. Merci beaucoup! This one is on my wish list since I am already a couple hundreds over budget for this fiscal month. If the 7 copies allotted to the US can last another week though... :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood - K Anh C 11.03 074g Symphony in Bb 3rd mvmt - Menuetto & Trio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 05, 2011, 02:07:57 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 05, 2011, 10:03:03 AM

And you know, it is quite interesting that Haydn did arrange these himself. Guessing here that he found them totally unusable in their Baryton incarnation. Many of the trios were arranged for string trio, which I feel was a less successful venture. That wasn't by Haydn though. Anyway, I am delighted with this discovery, as I wasn't aware that any of that lot had been recorded at all. Merci beaucoup! This one is on my wish list since I am already a couple hundreds over budget for this fiscal month. If the 7 copies allotted to the US can last another week though... :D

Gurn - now that disc looks interesting, but Amazon has little information on track listings; I looked at Q's link of a bunch of old guys my age playing on wine glasses - reminded me of the scene of Sandra Bullock (who is much better looking) playing the glasses in the movie Miss Congeniality - :D

But I love the basset horn and this looks like a great recording - might consider tonight, I guess w/ that label? Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 05, 2011, 02:34:02 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on February 05, 2011, 02:07:57 PM
Gurn - now that disc looks interesting, but Amazon has little information on track listings; I looked at Q's link of a bunch of old guys my age playing on wine glasses - reminded me of the scene of Sandra Bullock (who is much better looking) playing the glasses in the movie Miss Congeniality - :D

But I love the basset horn and this looks like a great recording - might consider tonight, I guess w/ that label? Dave :)

Yeah, might as well play it safe, Dave. I'm afraid that waiting until the 16th will probably knock me out of the running for the last copy (#7). If you take Q's list of the contents and look at your Baryton set, the listings will be the same. My guess is that he simply gave the baryton part to the Bassett Horn in full confidence that it was an instrument that would greatly outlive the baryton... :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Academy of Ancient Music / Schröder Hogwood - K 318 Symphony #32 in G 2nd mvmt - Andante

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 05, 2011, 03:00:55 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 05, 2011, 02:34:02 PM
Yeah, might as well play it safe, Dave. I'm afraid that waiting until the 16th will probably knock me out of the running for the last copy (#7). If you take Q's list of the contents and look at your Baryton set, the listings will be the same. My guess is that he simply gave the baryton part to the Bassett Horn in full confidence that it was an instrument that would greatly outlive the baryton... :D

Gurn - guess that I'll 'bite' on that disc - $14 at one of the Amazon MP sites - looking forward to the contents! Dave :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 05, 2011, 03:06:15 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on February 05, 2011, 03:00:55 PM
Gurn - guess that I'll 'bite' on that disc - $14 at one of the Amazon MP sites - looking forward to the contents! Dave :D

I'll be curious to hear, Dave. The Trio di Bassetto is excellent, I have them playing some Mozart and Stadler works. Also, I've been thinking lately about wearing a rose like that angel on the cover... ::) :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Academy of Ancient Music / Schröder Hogwood - K 320alt Symphony in D from Posthorn Serenade 1st mvmt - Adagio maestoso - Allegro con spirito

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 05, 2011, 03:13:01 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 05, 2011, 03:06:15 PM
I'll be curious to hear, Dave. The Trio di Bassetto is excellent, I have them playing some Mozart and Stadler works. Also, I've been thinking lately about wearing a rose like that angel on the cover... ::) :D

Yep - that cover is kind of goofy w/ the cherubs (even a Baroque image!) - I'm sure that our Papa Haydn would not have been pleased, but who knows - I'm sure he had a good sense of humor (any info on that, BTW?) - Dave ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 05, 2011, 03:16:31 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on February 05, 2011, 03:13:01 PM
Yep - that cover is kind of goofy w/ the cherubs (even a Baroque image!) - I'm sure that our Papa Haydn would not have been pleased, but who knows - I'm sure he had a good sense of humor (any info on that, BTW?) - Dave ;D

Oof, tough call. I can't imagine anything otherwise, since he was pleased to hang out with Mozart, for example, and he frequently tweaks people in his letters, but most of the 'evidence' is inferential. I'm sure he would have liked ME though... ;D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Academy of Ancient Music / Schröder Hogwood - K 320alt Symphony in D 2nd mvmt - Andantino

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 05, 2011, 03:17:05 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 05, 2011, 03:06:15 PM
I'll be curious to hear, Dave. The Trio di Bassetto is excellent, I have them playing some Mozart and Stadler works. Also, I've been thinking lately about wearing a rose like that angel on the cover... ::) :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Academy of Ancient Music / Schröder Hogwood - K 320alt Symphony in D from Posthorn Serenade 1st mvmt - Adagio maestoso - Allegro con spirito

Hi, Gurn. IIRC some time ago your signature showed new covers every week or something so. But currently the covers are always the same.

It was fun to see different covers from your collection. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 05, 2011, 03:19:41 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 05, 2011, 03:17:05 PM
Hi, Gurn. IIRC some time ago your signature showed new covers every week or something so. But currently the covers are always the same.

It was fun to see different covers from your collection. :)

Yeah, I'm getting lazy in my dotage. I shall try to do better though. Not like I haven't scanned thousands of covers to put in there... :-\

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Academy of Ancient Music / Schröder Hogwood - K 320alt Symphony in D 2nd mvmt - Andantino

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 05, 2011, 03:36:18 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 05, 2011, 03:19:41 PM
Yeah, I'm getting lazy in my dotage. I shall try to do better though. Not like I haven't scanned thousands of covers to put in there... :-\

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Academy of Ancient Music / Schröder Hogwood - K 320alt Symphony in D 2nd mvmt - Andantino

Well, that's understandable. Incredibly we need to let some time to live like normal people. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on February 06, 2011, 02:34:34 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 05, 2011, 10:03:03 AM
And you know, it is quite interesting that Haydn did arrange these himself. Guessing here that he found them totally unusable in their Baryton incarnation. Many of the trios were arranged for string trio, which I feel was a less successful venture. That wasn't by Haydn though.

I did get the impresion from the blurp at K617 that thes arrangements were by Haydn himself, but now after re-reading I'm not that sure: that is not said by so many words. The arrangements seem at least to have been around for some time - I've seen a recording with a version for clarinets. Maybe your Haydn libbrary has more details, Gurn? Or else we might have to wait for Dave (sonic) to fill us in on the details on the provenance of these pieces.

Anyway, it is clear however that all three parts are performed on a basset-horn. An odd looking instrumetn but it sounds really cool! :)

(http://orgs.usd.edu/nmm/Clarinets/BassetHorn/3541Doleischbassethornlongkeyside.jpg)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 06, 2011, 05:58:26 AM

Quote from: Que on February 06, 2011, 02:34:34 AM
I did get the impresion from the blurp at K617 that thes arrangements were by Haydn himself, but now after re-reading I'm not that sure: that is not said by so many words. The arrangements seem at least to have been around for some time - I've seen a recording with a version for clarinets. Maybe your Haydn libbrary has more details, Gurn? Or else we might have to wait for Dave (sonic) to fill us in on the details on the provenance of these pieces.

Anyway, it is clear however that all three parts are performed on a basset-horn. An odd looking instrumetn but it sounds really cool! :)

(http://orgs.usd.edu/nmm/Clarinets/BassetHorn/3541Doleischbassethornlongkeyside.jpg)

Q

No, I just read something a few days ago about trios being arranged for bassett horn by Haydn. Let me see if I can find it now. :) It wasn't 3 bassett horns though, I don't think. It was a bassett horn replacing the baryton. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Chicago Symphony Orchestra / Solti 1972 - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 1st mvmt - Allegro ma non troppo, un poco maestoso

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 06, 2011, 06:25:57 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 06, 2011, 05:58:26 AM
No, I just read something a few days ago about trios being arranged for bassett horn by Haydn. Let me see if I can find it now. :) It wasn't 3 bassett horns though, I don't think. It was a bassett horn replacing the baryton. :)

Gurn - I'll be curious - last night I tried to match up the trio numbers that Q provided to the ones in the BIG baryton box, but the key signatures were different (of course, these may have been changed by Haydn or a 'pseudo-Haydn' to adapt to the other instrument?) - but the order is placed, so may arrive sometime this coming week (shipping from FL) - Dave :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 06, 2011, 06:34:26 AM

Quote from: SonicMan on February 06, 2011, 06:25:57 AM
Gurn - I'll be curious - last night I tried to match up the trio numbers that Q provided to the ones in the BIG baryton box, but the key signatures were different (of course, these may have been changed by Haydn or a 'pseudo-Haydn' to adapt to the other instrument?) - but the order is placed, so may arrive sometime this coming week (shipping from FL) - Dave :D

Well, transposition would be my surmise too, Dave. I see that they are all transposed down either 1 or 2 tones, so that makes sense. Probably the high notes on the bassett horn just aren't high enough! :) Oddbanana is a good vendor, IMO, I can see you having that by Wednesday! At least it wasn't MovieMars... ::)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Chicago Symphony Orchestra / Solti 1972 - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 3rd mvmt - Adagio molto e cantabile

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Klaze on February 08, 2011, 01:32:27 PM

Hello, lurker coming out of haydn' here...

I did not have much interest in Haydn, nor in his string quartets, but recently picked up a CD of the Kodaly Quartet and liked it enough to listen more of these pieces, also as a result of hearing some samples of the Quatuor Festetics (encountered while lurking in this thread).

Anyway, I seem to have managed to acquire a 2nd hand CD _not_ discussed on this thread (!): Op.64 played by the Quatuor Festetics on Harmonia Mundi/Quintana, which I understand is a different recording from the ones on the Arcana label. I like it so far (and have nothing to compare it to yet anyway) but I was just wondering if anyone here knows how this compares, in general or in specifics, to their recordings on the Arcana label? Is it similar in playing style and mostly a difference in the recording itself...or?

Thanks in advance.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 08, 2011, 03:05:04 PM

Quote from: Klaze on February 08, 2011, 01:32:27 PM
Hello, lurker coming out of haydn' here...

I did not have much interest in Haydn, nor in his string quartets, but recently picked up a CD of the Kodaly Quartet and liked it enough to listen more of these pieces, also as a result of hearing some samples of the Quatuor Festetics (encountered while lurking in this thread).

Anyway, I seem to have managed to acquire a 2nd hand CD _not_ discussed on this thread (!): Op.64 played by the Quatuor Festetics on Harmonia Mundi/Quintana, which I understand is a different recording from the ones on the Arcana label. I like it so far (and have nothing to compare it to yet anyway) but I was just wondering if anyone here knows how this compares, in general or in specifics, to their recordings on the Arcana label? Is it similar in playing style and mostly a difference in the recording itself...or?

Thanks in advance.

Hi, Klaze, welcome aboard!

I have a couple of the HM disks, Op 33 & 42 in the re-release with the white front like Musique d'Abord (in fact, they are, although they still say Quintana on them) disks have, and an original of Op 77 on Quintana with that flowery cover. I don't have specifically the Op 64 though. In any case, this is the difference; the HM were recorded several years before the Arcana ones. Clearly the players were less accomplished, and I have read about significant numbers of intonation issues on some performances. I happen to like mine in both sets, since I like the more youthful joie de vivre of the earlier ones, despite the potential for less than perfection. For me, musicality trumps perfection unless it is so obvious as to be a distraction. And that is not the case here. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on February 08, 2011, 06:27:21 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 08, 2011, 03:05:04 PM
Hi, Klaze, welcome aboard!

I have a couple of the HM disks, Op 33 & 42 in the re-release with the white front like Musique d'Abord (in fact, they are, although they still say Quintana on them) disks have, and an original of Op 77 on Quintana with that flowery cover. I don't have specifically the Op 64 though. In any case, this is the difference; the HM were recorded several years before the Arcana ones. Clearly the players were less accomplished, and I have read about significant numbers of intonation issues on some performances. I happen to like mine in both sets, since I like the more youthful joie de vivre of the earlier ones, despite the potential for less than perfection. For me, musicality trumps perfection unless it is so obvious as to be a distraction. And that is not the case here. :)

8)

That wouldn't have been earlier in this Thread when people like **** and ****** we eating the QF alive (as I recall, it waaas the Arcana they were pickin' out of their teeth ::) ;D). I'm jus' saying,... you know the wolves will be here shortly! :o Why not warn our new friend not to wave the red meat?!! :P 8)

FacePalm: I hope we're not going to go through thaaat again, haha!

btw- I wasn't aware of an Op.64. Intriguing. But seriously,... how is the intonation?

I hear horses approaching!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: FideLeo on February 09, 2011, 03:03:50 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 17, 2009, 09:27:59 AM
As for the Schuppanzigh, I haven't seen a word about them yet. That looks like something to investigate though, since I have heard some good things about them. :)

8)

Wolves...with a pulse, no, meant to say "worth a purchase" ;)

http://www.youtube.com/v/ET66F5GboBo

[asin]B001NG3QBA[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 09, 2011, 04:22:37 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on February 08, 2011, 06:27:21 PM
That wouldn't have been earlier in this Thread when people like **** and ****** we eating the QF alive (as I recall, it waaas the Arcana they were pickin' out of their teeth ::) ;D). I'm jus' saying,... you know the wolves will be here shortly! :o Why not warn our new friend not to wave the red meat?!! :P 8)

FacePalm: I hope we're not going to go through thaaat again, haha!

btw- I wasn't aware of an Op.64. Intriguing. But seriously,... how is the intonation?

I hear horses approaching!

Actually no, it was in a long review of the Arcana Op 9 set when the reviewer started out with a recap of the HM Op 9 set. The review seemed fair and balanced, so I suspect that the issues actually existed in the first set, and the claim that they provided the impetus for making the second set (well, that and $$$) is probably valid. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 09, 2011, 04:24:56 AM

Quote from: masolino on February 09, 2011, 03:03:50 AM
Wolves...with a pulse, no, meant to say "worth a purchase" ;)

[asin]B001NG3QBA[/asin]

I have gotten both Vol. 1 & 2 since that post. Really do like them too. I have heard of a volume 3 but not seen it yet in the USA. I'll get it too!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on February 09, 2011, 05:23:17 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 09, 2011, 04:24:56 AM
I have gotten both Vol. 1 & 2 since that post. Really do like them too. I have heard of a volume 3 but not seen it yet in the USA. I'll get it too!

8)

Where did they come from? Have I seen them on Amazon?? Will have to check. In case of no info, what SQs are on these vols.?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on February 09, 2011, 05:23:49 AM

btw- we are getting tantalizingly close to Page 42!! ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on February 09, 2011, 05:47:56 AM

Wow, a whole thread on Haydn's 4s, and I've only just found it!

The Lindsays renditions of opp. 71 and 74 are what drew me to classical music in the first place, and these remain my favourite pieces, with honourable mentions to opp. 20, 42, 64, 76 and 77, plus all the ones I haven't mentioned.

These compositions define balanced expression in musical form. O my!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on February 09, 2011, 06:09:30 AM

Quote from: chasman on February 09, 2011, 05:47:56 AM
Wow, a whole thread on Haydn's 4s, and I've only just found it!

The Lindsays renditions of opp. 71 and 74 are what drew me to classical music in the first place, and these remain my favourite pieces, with honourable mentions to opp. 20, 42, 64, 76 and 77, plus all the ones I haven't mentioned.

These compositions define balanced expression in musical form. O my!

Rules: You are not allowed to Post until you've memorized and been tested on the first 41 Pages! ;) ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on February 09, 2011, 06:19:47 AM

I'll pass the test! Here are my answers:

yes
yes
no
no
sometimes
maybe
with the advent of porcine aviation

(Actually, I am having a look at the first 41 pages. Gonna take a while.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 09, 2011, 06:27:19 AM

Quote from: chasman on February 09, 2011, 06:19:47 AM
I'll pass the test! Here are my answers:

yes
yes
no
no
sometimes
maybe
with the advent of porcine aviation

(Actually, I am having a look at the first 41 pages. Gonna take a while.)

Oh Boy! A glutton for punishment! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on February 09, 2011, 07:14:34 AM

Now let me play the examiner!

It is often said that people hear what they want to hear. When I listen to Haydn's string quartets I hear what I want: awareness without obsession, expression without indulgence, emotion without excess. Elements of the musical psyche are explored and recreated, not as isolated darknesses, but in measured relation to each other and to a wider world. Hard work is matched by pleasure, tension by release, aspiration by acceptance of a common and inevitable end. The theoretical achievement of a movement in sonata form is decorated with accessible grace and balanced by a thoughtful or elegaic adagio or andante. A dance movement recalls to our idyll the necessity of relation and its associated conventions. The finale, playful or furious but definitively final, identifies the collection as a subsisting whole, a completed lyrical unity. This unity might be conceived in turn as a narrative with beginning, middle and end, an engaged and educated conversation, a sermon or argument, or even as a jutting and salient object, an aural painting or sculpture. In any case, it lives through its own measured articulation, pursuing a dialectic of beauty that recognizes and utilises the disparate and opaque, but refuses to idolize or condemn. It finds a middle way.

Discuss, but without reference to verbal self-stimulation.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Klaze on February 09, 2011, 12:37:28 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 08, 2011, 03:05:04 PM
Hi, Klaze, welcome aboard!

I have a couple of the HM disks, Op 33 & 42 in the re-release with the white front like Musique d'Abord (in fact, they are, although they still say Quintana on them) disks have, and an original of Op 77 on Quintana with that flowery cover. I don't have specifically the Op 64 though. In any case, this is the difference; the HM were recorded several years before the Arcana ones. Clearly the players were less accomplished, and I have read about significant numbers of intonation issues on some performances. I happen to like mine in both sets, since I like the more youthful joie de vivre of the earlier ones, despite the potential for less than perfection. For me, musicality trumps perfection unless it is so obvious as to be a distraction. And that is not the case here. :)

8)

Thanks for the info and welcome, seems I have the same release, showing both Musique d'abord and Quintana.

Quote from: snyprrr on February 08, 2011, 06:27:21 PM
Why not warn our new friend not to wave the red meat?!! :P 8)

btw- I wasn't aware of an Op.64. Intriguing. But seriously,... how is the intonation?

I do recall some posts being rather unkind to this ensemble...oh well ;]
Anyway, I have no reference nor am I very familiar with listening to string quartets so I wouldn't know how the intonation is. Anyway, what I can say now is that, comparing it to some samples (couldnt find them on Amazon, but on jpc.de there are samples) from Op.64 on the Arcana label, the sound on the latter seems to a bit fuller/rounded off, closer, maybe a bit more "together". Also the performances on Quintana are slightly faster and sound snappier (maybe this joie de vivre Gurn Blanston was talking about) but the differences are not extreme to me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 09, 2011, 01:35:51 PM

Quote from: Klaze on February 09, 2011, 12:37:28 PM
Thanks for the info and welcome, seems I have the same release, showing both Musique d'abord and Quintana.

I do recall some posts being rather unkind to this ensemble...oh well ;]
Anyway, I have no reference nor am I very familiar with listening to string quartets so I wouldn't know how the intonation is. Anyway, what I can say now is that, comparing it to some samples (couldnt find them on Amazon, but on jpc.de there are samples) from Op.64 on the Arcana label, the sound on the latter seems to a bit fuller/rounded off, closer, maybe a bit more "together". Also the performances on Quintana are slightly faster and sound snappier (maybe this joie de vivre Gurn Blanston was talking about) but the differences are not extreme to me.

Klaze,
Intonation problems are like this: you know, a violin isn't like a guitar; no frets. So when the fiddler puts his finger on the string and hits it with the bow, then if it isn't in exactly the right place, it will be sharp or flat. And you can hear that if you listen for it. It is the big no-no of violinists! So what you hear in even a wonderful performance for tempo and bowing and all that, but if the violinist has a little trouble with putting his fingers exactly the right spot, then it will be noticed. Anyway, some of those earlier version disks had that problem. Better now, though. For me, my ears are harder to hear that than they used to when I was younger. Maybe my hearing is worse, or maybe it just doesn't bother me as much as it used to! :) Anyway, the important question you always ask yourself about a performance is "does this please me?". If it does, then that is the only opinion that matters. I am happy with both versions of both opuses. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Klaze on February 10, 2011, 06:18:51 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 09, 2011, 01:35:51 PM
Klaze,
Intonation problems are like this: you know, a violin isn't like a guitar; no frets. So when the fiddler puts his finger on the string and hits it with the bow, then if it isn't in exactly the right place, it will be sharp or flat. And you can hear that if you listen for it. It is the big no-no of violinists! So what you hear in even a wonderful performance for tempo and bowing and all that, but if the violinist has a little trouble with putting his fingers exactly the right spot, then it will be noticed.

Right, didn't know intonation referred to that, thanks.

QuoteAnyway, the important question you always ask yourself about a performance is "does this please me?". If it does, then that is the only opinion that matters.

Wise words for sure ;]. And I'm quite sure I'm gonna enjoy exploring their recordings further

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on February 10, 2011, 06:34:21 AM

Quote from: chasman on February 09, 2011, 07:14:34 AM
Now let me play the examiner!

It is often said that people hear what they want to hear. When I listen to Haydn's string quartets I hear what I want: awareness without obsession, expression without indulgence, emotion without excess. Elements of the musical psyche are explored and recreated, not as isolated darknesses, but in measured relation to each other and to a wider world. Hard work is matched by pleasure, tension by release, aspiration by acceptance of a common and inevitable end. The theoretical achievement of a movement in sonata form is decorated with accessible grace and balanced by a thoughtful or elegaic adagio or andante. A dance movement recalls to our idyll the necessity of relation and its associated conventions. The finale, playful or furious but definitively final, identifies the collection as a subsisting whole, a completed lyrical unity. This unity might be conceived in turn as a narrative with beginning, middle and end, an engaged and educated conversation, a sermon or argument, or even as a jutting and salient object, an aural painting or sculpture. In any case, it lives through its own measured articulation, pursuing a dialectic of beauty that recognizes and utilises the disparate and opaque, but refuses to idolize or condemn. It finds a middle way.

Discuss, but without reference to verbal self-stimulation.

'Sober' is the word that comes to mind. Yes, Haydn appears oh so professional,... the epitome of that word, in its best sense.

Honestly, I like your assessment, and have nothing to add!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on February 10, 2011, 06:34:53 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 09, 2011, 06:27:19 AM
Oh Boy! A glutton for punishment! :D

8)

haha ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on February 10, 2011, 06:40:19 AM

In anticipation of Page 42, I'm going to go ahead and get the ball rolling.

Franz Joseph Haydn Op.42

This is the only Haydn SQ I haven't even listened to since we started this thing. I used to have it on Naxos, but remember being disappointed that it wasn't the kind of 'd minor' that I had hoped.

Some have said that the Lindsays (the 'live', white covered ASV) are the way to go here.

What do you think of the music? Like I said, I don't recall it being anything particularly.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 10, 2011, 07:19:42 AM

Quote from: Klaze on February 10, 2011, 06:18:51 AM
Right, didn't know intonation referred to that, thanks.

Wise words for sure ;]. And I'm quite sure I'm gonna enjoy exploring their recordings further

No, neither did I for a long time. People would talk about it and I would say to myself; "intonation? WTF, he isn't chanting or anything, he's fiddling! ??? ". :D Definitions can be useful at times. :)

I know that people are always soliciting other people's opinions on recordings, but other than telling you that this one is an unmitigated disaster because of performance or sound issues, no one can tell you what your taste can. So go for it. I think you will enjoy (but that's only because I do!). :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 11, 2011, 05:38:16 PM

Haydn Baryton Trios played on a trio of basset horns (i.e. a low register clarinet; Anton Stadler, Mozart's clarinetist, asked the Viennese maker Theodor Lotz to add lower keys to produce this instrument) - copies of this instrument by Andreas Schoni of Berne are used in this present recording; a pic shown previously of the 'basset horn' in this thread is shown below.

These transcriptions (in different keys) are wonderfully relaxing and beautiful - if you like (and own the BIG BOX) of the Baryton Trios, this disc is a MUST addition just for the variety - recommendation for us Haydn fans! :D

QuoteAnother 'new' arrival: Haydn - Basset Horn Trios w/ Le Trio di Bassetto - these are 5 baryton trios of Haydn transcribed to 3 basset horns plus the pinging of glasses to simulate the plucking of the 'sympathetic strings' of the baryton - fascinating recording and great listening! :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnBassetHorns/1184622767_GPVpr-O.jpg) (http://orgs.usd.edu/nmm/Clarinets/BassetHorn/3541Doleischbassethornlongkeyside.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on February 12, 2011, 03:44:05 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on February 10, 2011, 06:40:19 AM
What do you think of the music? Like I said, I don't recall it being anything particularly.

I've just listened to the Lindsays recording. There is no sturm und drang here, rather a good natured and inquisitive walk through the neighbourhood, noticing this, reacting to that, buying a pie in the shop then slowly enjoying it at the park bench next to the duck pond before hurrying home after realizing how late in the day it now is. Clearly not to everyone's taste! but I love it.

The recording is close and clear, the cello honks a bit, the violins are like silk, and no intonation problems I can hear.

I have the Kodalys too, I'll give them a listen and compare.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on February 12, 2011, 04:05:31 AM

The only really striking difference that I hear between Lindsays and Kodaly is the recorded sound, which is much wetter on the Naxos disc, and thus less to my taste as it happens. Oh, and the Kodaly cello doesn't honk.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on February 12, 2011, 07:13:29 AM

Quote from: chasman on February 12, 2011, 03:44:05 AM
I've just listened to the Lindsays recording. There is no sturm und drang here, rather a good natured and inquisitive walk through the neighbourhood, noticing this, reacting to that, buying a pie in the shop then slowly enjoying it at the park bench next to the duck pond before hurrying home after realizing how late in the day it now is. Clearly not to everyone's taste! but I love it.

The recording is close and clear, the cello honks a bit, the violins are like silk, and no intonation problems I can hear.

I have the Kodalys too, I'll give them a listen and compare.

Very nice description,... that's the way Op.64 makes me feel.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 12, 2011, 04:06:56 PM

Quote from: SonicMan on February 11, 2011, 05:38:16 PM
Haydn Baryton Trios played on a trio of basset horns (i.e. a low register clarinet; Anton Stadler, Mozart's clarinetist, asked the Viennese maker Theodor Lotz to add lower keys to produce this instrument) - copies of this instrument by Andreas Schoni of Berne are used in this present recording; a pic shown previously of the 'basset horn' in this thread is shown below.

These transcriptions (in different keys) are wonderfully relaxing and beautiful - if you like (and own the BIG BOX) of the Baryton Trios, this disc is a MUST addition just for the variety - recommendation for us Haydn fans! :D

Nice, Dave. I will be getting mine next week, looking forward to it. Someone in a PM this morning ventured that this is is a great time for Haydn/HIP/PI fans; we are blessed with an embarrassment of riches these days. That's good for me, at my age, embarrassment doesn't bother me a whit. :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Natalie Clein (Cello) / Julius Drake (Piano) - Kodály Op 08 Sonata for Solo Cello 3rd mvmt - Allegro molto vivace

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on February 13, 2011, 01:45:51 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 09, 2011, 01:35:51 PM
Klaze,
Intonation problems are like this: you know, a violin isn't like a guitar; no frets. So when the fiddler puts his finger on the string and hits it with the bow, then if it isn't in exactly the right place, it will be sharp or flat. And you can hear that if you listen for it. It is the big no-no of violinists!

Actually, many violin soloists spice their performance with a little flat or sharp intonation for expressive intent. Being right on the dot all the time could get boring.

Obviously some violinists, particularly as they get older, go overboard in this.

There is a You Tube video of Salvatore Accardo performing the Schumann Piano Quartet Op. 47 with Menahem Pressler and Gautier Capuçon where Accardo is consistently overdoing this.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 21, 2011, 03:21:12 PM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41PD0CD34ML._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Sonatas for Keyboard nos 1-9
McCabe (Piano)

Always enjoyed this set and have not visited in a while.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 21, 2011, 04:22:20 PM

Quote from: Bogey on February 21, 2011, 03:21:12 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41PD0CD34ML._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Sonatas for Keyboard nos 1-9
McCabe (Piano)

Always enjoyed this set and have not visited in a while.

Bill,
Yes, so have I. Nothing fancy in the way McCabe plays, which is just as it should be. Good tempos, and the best part; he doesn't make his modern piano do all the modern piano tricks, he lets it sound like a nice, plain keyboard. I have always felt like he is the equivalent of Ingrid Haebler in the Mozart sonatas. Which is a compliment! :)

8)

----------------
Now playing: Costantino Mastroprimiano - Clementi WoO 03 Sonata in F 1st mvmt - Vivace (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/costantino+mastroprimiano+-+clementi+woo+03+sonata+in+f+1st+mvmt/track/vivace)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 21, 2011, 06:53:41 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 21, 2011, 04:22:20 PM
Bill,
Yes, so have I. Nothing fancy in the way McCabe plays, which is just as it should be. Good tempos, and the best part; he doesn't make his modern piano do all the modern piano tricks, he lets it sound like a nice, plain keyboard. I have always felt like he is the equivalent of Ingrid Haebler in the Mozart sonatas. Which is a compliment! :)

8)

----------------
Now playing: Costantino Mastroprimiano - Clementi WoO 03 Sonata in F 1st mvmt - Vivace (http://www.foxytunes.com/artist/costantino+mastroprimiano+-+clementi+woo+03+sonata+in+f+1st+mvmt/track/vivace)

His liner notes are interesting when lined up with your comment. I quote:

The instrument on which the music is played would have varied considerably, from the clavichord of Haydn's early days, to the latest fortepianos, which he insisted on having in London in order to write his final set of three sonatas. His contribution to the development of the keyboard was enormous, and I have no qualms about performing the works on a modern grand piano. There are gains and losses in choosing either authentic or modern ones-it seems to me that a suitable modern piano enables the performer to reveal more completely the historical significance of the music, and its remarkable range of references both back to the Baroque and forward to the Romantics.

Personally, I am glad folks vary and we have all the above interps.

Now, more Papa with lute:

Cassation in B Flat Hob III: 1
Cassation in C Hob III: 6
Quarteto in D Hob III: 8
Sonata in A 3 in F Hob IV: F2

Jakob Lindberg (Lute)
Ensemble: Drottningholm Baroque Ensemble

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 22, 2011, 02:46:51 AM

Putting this on this morning. I believe André ( (http://www.goldenweb.it/software/immagini/icone/cartoons/smurfs/Papa%20Smurf.gif) )recommended it to me a few years back Gurn when you suggested I ask him for recs when it came to Haydn's masses.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51H14XU%2BRpL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2011, 04:22:40 AM

Quote from: Bogey on February 21, 2011, 06:53:41 PM
His liner notes are interesting when lined up with your comment. I quote:

The instrument on which the music is played would have varied considerably, from the clavichord of Haydn's early days, to the latest fortepianos, which he insisted on having in London in order to write his final set of three sonatas. His contribution to the development of the keyboard was enormous, and I have no qualms about performing the works on a modern grand piano. There are gains and losses in choosing either authentic or modern ones-it seems to me that a suitable modern piano enables the performer to reveal more completely the historical significance of the music, and its remarkable range of references both back to the Baroque and forward to the Romantics.

Personally, I am glad folks vary and we have all the above interps.

Now, more Papa with lute:

Cassation in B Flat Hob III: 1
Cassation in C Hob III: 6
Quarteto in D Hob III: 8
Sonata in A 3 in F Hob IV: F2

Jakob Lindberg (Lute)
Ensemble: Drottningholm Baroque Ensemble

Yes, that is interesting. Specifically what I like is that he doesn't go at all for that big monster sound with lots of sustain and reverb. There's no room in the music to accommodate that, no matter which direction you are looking. :)

I like that Lindberg disk. Those early 4tets for strings sound pretty much like they had a lute in mind at the same time, don't they? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2011, 04:24:29 AM

Quote from: Bogey on February 22, 2011, 02:46:51 AM
Putting this on this morning. I believe André ( (http://www.goldenweb.it/software/immagini/icone/cartoons/smurfs/Papa%20Smurf.gif) )recommended it to me a few years back Gurn when you suggested I ask him for recs when it came to Haydn's masses.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51H14XU%2BRpL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Well, André would know best. I only have PI versions of those masses (Hickox, Weil & Gardiner) so not sure what a job Marriner does, but I would take your and André's word for it. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on February 22, 2011, 04:34:43 AM

Unlike Marriner's usual innate ability to make his orchestras sound boring, the choir on those EMI recordings more than withstand him. They are deliciously "big" sounding, but with a really dramatic, incisive edge.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2011, 04:43:04 AM

Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on February 22, 2011, 04:34:43 AM
Unlike Marriner's usual innate ability to make his orchestras sound boring, the choir on those EMI recordings more than withstand him. They are deliciously "big" sounding, but with a really dramatic, incisive edge.

Well, as we say in Texas, even a blind hog finds an acorn sometimes. :D

Thanks, Sara. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2011, 06:04:37 AM

Quote from: noeL on February 22, 2011, 06:01:50 AM
Much more colorful than the saw, "even a stopped clock is right twice a day," but Texas cannot claim sole ownership to the phrase, since I remember Bill Clinton using it.

Well, Hope, Arkansas is less than 50 miles from Texas... and yet an eternity. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2011, 06:17:30 AM

Quote from: noeL on February 22, 2011, 06:06:51 AM
Right, if you count Texarkana as part of Texas .... :)

We frequently stretch a point and count the good part. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 22, 2011, 07:29:22 PM

(http://image.allmusic.com/00/acg/cov200/cm300/m344/m34403etfdk.jpg)

Composed 1796

If I only had the opportunity to keep just one Haydn recording, this would be under the highest consideration. Absolutely gorgeous on all levels.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 23, 2011, 05:02:50 PM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61ED127ECFL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Always enjoyable. The first movement of this trumpet concerto might be Haydn's "greatest hit" to the populace.

and a pairing from the Haydn brothers:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/f5/a2/827e828fd7a0db0f824e3110.L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I was surprised after a fresh listen that I grabbed by Michael's a tad bit more, but the few discs I have of him on the shelf, I do enjoy.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 23, 2011, 05:14:14 PM

Quote from: Bogey on February 23, 2011, 05:02:50 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61ED127ECFL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Always enjoyable. The first movement of this trumpet concerto might be Haydn's "greatest hit" to the populace.

This is a very good disk, it's been my favorite trumpet concerto since I got it. Of course, the oboe concerto is bogus as far as Haydn is concerned, but that doesn't make it anything less than a nice concerto anyway (I've always sort of snickered at people who felt 'taken in' by "the greatest work ever of its kind by anyone' only to change their tune when they find that someone else wrote it and now it's dreck). :D I also like the Harpsichord concerto on there, it has Pinnock doing what he does best, which is playing a harpsichord, not driving a band. :)

Quoteand a pairing from the Haydn brothers:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/f5/a2/827e828fd7a0db0f824e3110.L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I was surprised after a fresh listen that I grabbed by Michael's a tad bit more, but the few discs I have of him on the shelf, I do enjoy.

Well, if anyone can sell it, it is Zehetmair! I don't have that disk (currently Standage is on top), but I would enjoy it, I know. Nice evening listening, Bill!

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment / Kuijken - Hob 01 084 Symphony in Eb 3rd mvmt - Menuetto & Trio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 23, 2011, 05:30:46 PM

This gentleman gives it a nice rip (I have his recording on disc as well):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqLI32bYnSU

Maybe you can fix my post here to give the nice little youtube screen. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 23, 2011, 05:40:28 PM

Quote from: Bogey on February 23, 2011, 05:30:46 PM
This gentleman gives it a nice rip (I have his recording on disc as well):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqLI32bYnSU

Maybe you can fix my post here to give the nice little youtube screen. 8)

Ah yes, Wynton. He kicks butt there. That was one of my first recordings of that piece. :)

No, I've never posted a YouTube. I know it goes in the Flash brackets, but you have to put in a proper screen size and I haven't a clue. So it goes... :'(

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment / Kuijken - Hob 01 086 Symphony in D 1st mvmt - Adagio - Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on February 23, 2011, 07:12:22 PM

Did I mention this Smithson disc of Op.54 1-2 (DHM)? Where did thaaat come from? :o

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 23, 2011, 07:36:15 PM

Quote from: noeL on February 23, 2011, 06:52:22 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/eqLI32bYnSU

From the Youtube page, under the video window there is an icon to "Share" the video that will show you the link to copy and paste in between the flash code. But you have to remove the "/watch?v=" and replace it with "/v/"

Thanks!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: FideLeo on February 25, 2011, 03:44:54 AM

Reinhold Friedrich did a better keyed trumpet concerto recording than Bennett and Immer as far as I am concerned. I have posted it here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,7665.msg494153.html#msg494153). 8)

Below is probably Mark Bennett's recording (1st movement only) with Trevor Pinnock.
http://www.youtube.com/v/1pjAtNhzFZo

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on March 05, 2011, 09:02:59 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 10, 2009, 12:54:20 PM
Yes, the Nomos' are a strong recommend from me. Op 50 is my favorite Haydn 6 pack, and this performance of it is very good. Not quite as enthralling as the Tokyo, but a hell of a lot easier to get! :)

8)

Listening to Nomos Op.50. I have no other, and I'm afraid to try, for I have so gotten used to their pristine, totally White, performances. I've had this now for two years, and I still find it quite elusive.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lilas Pastia on March 12, 2011, 07:23:35 PM

I know it's absolutely incorrect in terms of authenticity, but I haven't heard an interpretation with more verve and sheer haydnesque instrumental bravura than Timofeï Dokshitzer's (Melodyia lp, available as a download). Lots of russian vibrato of course, but I suspect perfect tuning and 'straight tone' were not part of the trumpet's armoury when Haydn wrote his concerto.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 13, 2011, 08:25:09 AM

Quote from: James on March 13, 2011, 07:42:44 AM
Stockhausen conducting Haydn, with his accomplished son Markus playing the trumpet.

Part 1 >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5kUclz6WpU
Part 2 >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gu6hYEwPv1o

Cadenza's by Stockhausen.

Excellent performance, indeed. A bit "serious", but extremely clear for a version on modern instruments. Thanks.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 13, 2011, 08:29:08 AM

BTW, how much time has André had that avatar? ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2011, 08:51:26 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 13, 2011, 08:29:08 AM
BTW, how much time has André had that avatar? ;D

Only a couple of weeks. Takes some getting used to... :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Cerasi, Carole - Hob 16 42 Sonata in D for Fortepiano 1st mvmt - Andante con espressione

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2011, 08:53:11 AM

Quote from: James on March 13, 2011, 08:49:48 AM
There is also this budget single-disc issue of it coupled with Mozart's G-maj flute cto for those interested.
(which is played by one of the composers "wives", the accomplished flutist Kathinka Pasveer) ..

[asin]B0000C9V6B[/asin]

Very nice, thanks for the links, James. I liked the 1st movement cadenza that he played; more understated than Marsalis', which is fine with me. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Cerasi, Carole - Hob 16 42 Sonata in D for Fortepiano 1st mvmt - Andante con espressione

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 13, 2011, 09:05:20 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 13, 2011, 08:51:26 AM
Only a couple of weeks. Takes some getting used to... :)

Excellent! I have a witness. Soon this boy will hear about my lawyers. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2011, 09:07:00 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 13, 2011, 09:05:20 AM
Excellent! I have a witness. Soon this boy will hear about my lawyers. ;D

Take it as a compliment. :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Marcia Hadjimarkos - Hob 16 42 Sonata in D for Keyboard 1st mvmt - Allegro con expressione

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 13, 2011, 10:51:31 AM

Quote from: FideLeo on February 25, 2011, 03:44:54 AM
Reinhold Friedrich did a better keyed trumpet concerto recording than Bennett and Immer as far as I am concerned. I have posted it here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,7665.msg494153.html#msg494153). 8)

For those interested in the Keyed Trumpet, a little more information in the 'Old Musical Instruments' thread HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11638.120.html) - :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 17, 2011, 06:45:20 AM

Moved from the Purchases thread to this one because after 18 hours it was already 5 pages back and I wanted to discuss this. :)

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 16, 2011, 10:43:42 AM
Ordered from MDT today. They actually claim to have in stock these 3, volumes 1, 3 & 4. I have volume 2, so finding someone who actually stocks 5 & 6 remains the challenge!

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CM669.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CM28043.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CM28044.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 17, 2011, 06:47:36 AM

And this followup from Sonic Dave:

Quote from: SonicMan on March 16, 2011, 02:34:08 PM
Also, concerning those Haydn Divertimentos, currently I own the sets below (Klocker a 4-CD set; the other a single disc) - the Hoboken numbers are a little confusing for many of these works (believe much were early compositions) - can you clarify how the sets you ordered relate to the ones I own? Thanks for any comments, as usual - Dave

(http://www.tkshare.com/pic/20100712/20100712214641250.jpeg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnDivertimenti/348873594_jAXs4-O.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 17, 2011, 06:51:06 AM

And finally my reply:

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 16, 2011, 03:11:34 PM
Dave,
Those disks I am working on now were called 'Divertimenti' by Haydn, thus the name on the disks there, but you, me and most of mankind today would call them String Trios. 99% of them are for 2 violins and bass or cello, one is for violin, viola and bass. They are contained in Hob V (divertimentos for string trio (excluding Baryton)), and are the rarest of all recorded Haydn works. I have frequently recommended Camerata Berolinensis, but their series seems to have stopped after only 2 disks ( :'( ). There are 21 authentic trios in Hoboken, and 7 more that have been authenticated since. All 28 of them are included in the Vienna Philharmonia Trio set. The issue is finding them. Camerata Records (Japan) is not a widely distributed label, sad to say... :-\

Anyway, my reason for moving this conversation over here is that these works really intrigue me, and they scarcely ever get mentioned. Having now those disks mentioned, I think I have all recorded instances of these works! Too bad, they are wonderful. :(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on March 17, 2011, 06:58:16 AM

Just when the Divertimentians are AWOL!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 17, 2011, 07:02:42 AM

Quote from: Apollon on March 17, 2011, 06:58:16 AM
Just when the Divertimentians are AWOL!

Yeah, my bad luck... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on March 17, 2011, 07:09:33 AM

I think they're out dyeing their serenades green today.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on March 23, 2011, 07:12:37 AM

Am I correct that Op.64 No.1 is the only Haydn SQ without a formal slow mvmt.?

I. Allegro
II. Menuett
III. Scherzando
IV. Presto

Anyone?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on March 23, 2011, 09:48:37 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on March 05, 2011, 09:02:59 PM
Listening to Nomos Op.50. I have no other, and I'm afraid to try, for I have so gotten used to their pristine, totally White, performances. I've had this now for two years, and I still find it quite elusive.

I found Nomos relatively bland compared with Tatrai.

For me, some of those Op 50s are amongst my favourite Haydn chamber pieces.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on March 23, 2011, 04:09:36 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on March 23, 2011, 09:48:37 AM
I found Nomos relatively bland compared with Tatrai.

For me, some of those Op 50s are amongst my favourite Haydn chamber pieces.

Another set to consider is the Tokyo Quartet, which has been brought back by Archivmusic (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Drilldown?name_id1=5170&name_role1=1&name_id2=62993&name_role2=4&bcorder=41&comp_id=1365).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on March 23, 2011, 09:35:39 PM

Quote from: Daverz on March 23, 2011, 04:09:36 PM
Another set to consider is the Tokyo Quartet, which has been brought back by Archivmusic (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Drilldown?name_id1=5170&name_role1=1&name_id2=62993&name_role2=4&bcorder=41&comp_id=1365).

and Amati and the Lindsays -- both very good, especially the Lindsays. But Tatrai seems really special in Op 50 to me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 06, 2011, 06:42:00 PM

In a discussion the other day in the Classical Corner, a few of us decided to try and date some lists of works for the purpose of arranging our files more or less chronologically. I elected to do Haydn's folk song settings (since I had already started them ;) ). Here is that list in Excel:

http://www.mediafire.com/?9qy96o1agijvgmg

A few notes about these. First, unlike Herr Hoboken, I don't like Roman numerals (they don't arrange themselves in file names very well). So instead of XXXI you will find 31. 31a is the Scottish songs and 31b is the Welsh. I didn't type in the Welsh names, simply because it was too hard.

In the 31a columns, the first 150 are mostly from what Hoboken dates as ' -1792' which I take to mean "before 1792". IOW, he doesn't know exactly when before, just before. I gave them the date 1792 and leave it to you to decide what you want to do about it. Anyone finding the correct answer is obligated to share it with us! :)

Some of the later ones, nearly all of them from 1802, are dated "1802/3". I gave them just 1802. They are probably not more precisely datable than that. In addition, a large handful from 1804 were dated thusly; ?1804. I dropped the question mark. When I write my book, I'll put it back again. For purposes of sorting my record collection, I don't feel the need. :)

Guess that's about it. Enjoy. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
La Petite Bande / Sigiswald Kuijken - Hob 02 20 Divertimento in F 1st mvmt - Allegro molto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 07, 2011, 06:11:38 PM

Quote from: Leon on April 07, 2011, 02:50:56 AM
You da man!

And you have remarkable perspicacity. :D

Another thing I just thought of; a certain number of the 1803 songs were actually done by Neukomm, who was a student of Haydn's. It isn't known, AFAIK, whether he did the whole thing, perhaps as a student exercise, or if he did the copying at Haydn's direction, or some combination of those. In any case, I have the info on which ones he was involved with and will publish it here shortly. I meant to do it with the list itself and the thought simply slipped away on me. :)

If anyone would like to see another grouping here, let me know. Otherwise I will keep plodding away by Hoboken numbers until I get to the end. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
La Petite Bande / Kuijken Suzuki - Hob 07b 2 Concerto in D for Cello 3rd mvmt - Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Al Moritz on April 24, 2011, 06:14:37 PM

I had been to Cologne, Germany, to experience the world premiere of Stockhausen's opera Sonntag aus Licht. The lavish production was a fantastic experience and a great success with the audience (in particular Düfte-Zeichen, which received roaring applause). Then I went to visit my family in Austria. Next to listening to a lot of Deutsche Schlager *) (what fun! Stockhausen would have cringed) while traveling with the car from Germany to Austria, I also switched to the classical channel. Then I had a memorable experience.

I heard a symphony (I had just missed the announcement of what it was) that sounded as if it was from Mozart and which I thought I had heard some time before already. I said to myself, hmm, I really like that, is it maybe Haffner (one of the few Mozart symphonies that I tend to care about but don't remember well) or another one that I don't know yet? The first movement featured an uncommonly solid and adventurous development section, so I thought, wow, is Mozart really that good? The slow movement, something which Mozart tends to be good at, showed a poise and elegance, as well as sophisticated progressions worthy of Mozart, appearing to confirm at that moment my assumption that this really was him. The minuet was nice, but then the finale showed wit and variation that I usually do not associate with Mozart, rather with Haydn. I thought, well, this really *is* extraordinary Mozart! Turned out at the end, this had not been Mozart after all but Haydn's symphony # 78! So one of the very best 'Mozart' pieces had been actually written by Haydn. Quod erat demonstrandum.

Tonight I listened to the symphony again, now at home. What a masterpiece, this little symphony.

*) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schlager

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2011, 06:25:10 PM

Quote from: Al Moritz on April 24, 2011, 06:14:37 PM
I had been to Cologne, Germany, to experience the world premiere of Stockhausen's opera Sonntag aus Licht The lavish production was a fantastic experience and a great success with the audience (in particular Düfte-Zeichen, which received roaring applause). Then I went to visit my family in Austria. Next to listening to a lot of Deutsche Schlager *) (what fun! Stockhausen would have cringed) while traveling with the car from Germany to Austria, I also switched to the classical channel.

There I heard a symphony (I had just missed the announcement of what it was) that sounded as if it was from Mozart and which I thought I had heard some time before already. I said to myself, hmm, I really like that, is it maybe Haffner (one of the few Mozart symphonies that I tend to care about but don't remember well) or another one that I don't know yet? The first movement featured an uncommonly solid and adventurous development section, so I thought, wow, is Mozart really that good? The slow movement, something which Mozart tends to be good at, showed a poise and elegance, as well as sophisticated progressions worthy of Mozart, appearing to confirm at that moment my assumption that this really was him. The minuet was nice, but then the finale showed wit and variation that I usually do not associate with Mozart, rather with Haydn. I thought, well, this really *is* extraordinary Mozart! Turned out at the end, this had not been Mozart after all but Haydn's symphony # 78! So one of the very best 'Mozart' pieces had been actually written by Haydn. Quod erat demonstrandum.

Tonight I listened to the symphony again, now at home. What a masterpiece, this little symphony.

*) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schlager

Sounds like a great trip, Al. One I wouldn't mind taking some day myself. Köln and then Vienna? Count ME in!

#78 is just that, a lovely little masterpiece. It dates from Haydn's emancipation, when he finally was able to sign a contract that allowed him to sell his own works to publishers. He wrote a group of 3 (76-78) and got enough positive feedback to do 3 more (79-81). They were his last before the Paris Symphonies and the worldwide acclaim that came in the mid-'80's. As a set of 6, I have always considered them my secret treasure since I rarely if ever hear anyone discussing them. Why, none of them even has a name! :o :D

Glad you found that, best wishes to you,

GB 8)

----------------
Now playing:
Yuko Wataya (Cembalo & Clavier) - Hob 16 G1 Sonata #04 in G for Clavichord 2nd mvmt - Menuetto - Trio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on April 24, 2011, 06:39:40 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 24, 2011, 06:25:10 PM
Why, none of them even has a name! :o :D

Based on historical precedent, I'm sure Haydn wouldn't have minded if you invent a few of your own :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2011, 06:43:10 PM

Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on April 24, 2011, 06:39:40 PM
Based on historical precedent, I'm sure Haydn wouldn't have minded if you invent a few of your own :P

:D Well, I'm no editor... I'm trying hard to think of even a single symphony that Haydn named himself, and with the sole exceptions of 6, 7 & 8 where he was working under orders, I can't think of one. Can you? :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Academy of Ancient Music \ Hogwood Hogwood (Chamber Organ) - Hob 18 01 Concerto #1 in C for Organ 3rd mvmt - Allegro molto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 24, 2011, 06:44:15 PM

Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on April 24, 2011, 06:39:40 PM
Based on historical precedent, I'm sure Haydn wouldn't have minded if you invent a few of your own :P

Don't get Gurn started! He'll come up with quaint Texan expressions that will leave us scratching our heads! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on April 24, 2011, 07:04:28 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 24, 2011, 06:43:10 PM
Well, I'm no editor... I'm trying hard to think of even a single symphony that Haydn named himself, and with the sole exceptions of 6, 7 & 8 where he was working under orders, I can't think of one. Can you? :)

Nope, but I meant that he seemed okay with other people giving them names that stuck :)

@haydnfan: :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 25, 2011, 04:30:09 AM

Quote from: haydnfan on April 24, 2011, 06:44:15 PM
Don't get Gurn started! He'll come up with quaint Texan expressions that will leave us scratching our heads! :D

Aw, y'all 're just crazy as a bedbug. Ain't hardly no one here talks any clearer than the Ole Gurnster... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 25, 2011, 04:32:18 AM

Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on April 24, 2011, 07:04:28 PM
Nope, but I meant that he seemed okay with other people giving them names that stuck :)

@haydnfan: :D

Ah, I see. And just as well, considering how things went. As for me, I can scarcely figure out how any of those names apply.

Well, OK, Drumroll makes sense. But Mercury? WTF?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on April 25, 2011, 04:37:07 AM

I shall dub the 78th the Stumbling Goat, in tribute to its abrupt opening statement, and following swaying theme.

You heard it here first, ammend your musical dictionaries!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 25, 2011, 04:40:19 AM

Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on April 25, 2011, 04:37:07 AM
I shall dub the 78th the Stumbling Goat, in tribute to its abrupt opening statement, and following swaying theme.

You heard it here first, ammend your musical dictionaries!

Excellent. That will vault it to the top of the charts! And as a Brit, you can do that, since historically most named symphonies (like Mozart's Jupiter) were named by Brits. Proud to know you. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 25, 2011, 10:07:45 AM

Haydn's Harmoniemesse is sublime! What deep, moving music... 0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 25, 2011, 10:19:05 AM

Quote from: haydnfan on April 25, 2011, 10:07:45 AM
Haydn's Harmoniemesse is sublime! What deep, moving music... 0:)

The wind music in it is profoundly lovely. One of my very favorites!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 25, 2011, 10:22:20 AM

And the chorus in the Weil/Tafelmusik sing so beautifully! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on April 25, 2011, 10:54:53 AM

Quote from: haydnfan on April 25, 2011, 10:07:45 AM
Haydn's Harmoniemesse is sublime! What deep, moving music... 0:)

I agree. This mass is amazing.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on May 03, 2011, 12:35:47 PM

Hey can anyone here actually here the palindrome in the 47th symphony? According to wiki it should be in the minuet and trio... but dang it's too subtle for me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: dseegs on July 12, 2011, 06:33:17 PM

I am just getting started on classical music - I downloaded a torrent of all 104 symphonies. I started on Symphony No.1 and I have made it to Symphony No.71 going in order. This has been an awesome experience so far. I love classical music, I am hooked

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on July 12, 2011, 06:45:46 PM

Quote from: dseegs on July 12, 2011, 06:33:17 PM
I am just getting started on classical music - I downloaded a torrent of all 104 symphonies. I started on Symphony No.1 and I have made it to Symphony No.71 going in order. This has been an awesome experience so far. I love classical music, I am hooked

Wow, I really admire the way that you're listening - few have the patience for this, and even fewer have the good taste to look to Haydn for their classical needs ;D

You're in for a very pleasant surprise when you hit the No.80s onwards - masterpiece after masterpiece :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on July 13, 2011, 02:15:14 AM

Quote from: dseegs on July 12, 2011, 06:33:17 PM
I am just getting started on classical music - I downloaded a torrent of all 104 symphonies. I started on Symphony No.1 and I have made it to Symphony No.71 going in order. This has been an awesome experience so far. I love classical music, I am hooked

The Paris and London sets, the string quartets, piano trios, the six late masses, the oratorios... Good lord, if you're in love now, you're going to lose your soul to this music soon. Good on ya!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on July 13, 2011, 02:57:57 PM

Quote from: dseegs on July 12, 2011, 06:33:17 PM
I am just getting started on classical music - I downloaded a torrent of all 104 symphonies. I started on Symphony No.1 and I have made it to Symphony No.71 going in order. This has been an awesome experience so far. I love classical music, I am hooked

Excellent. Just started with classical music by committing theft. Steal as much as you can, before that kind of behavior kills the industry.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on July 13, 2011, 03:11:50 PM

Quote from: jlaurson on July 13, 2011, 02:57:57 PM
Excellent. Just started with classical music by committing theft. Steal as much as you can, before that kind of behavior kills the industry.

It's not really that simple. I got into classical by illegal downloading and now I buy a lot. My mentality was that I wanted to explore at my own pace, not dictated by radio programmers. From my upbringing, classical music was such a rebellious thing to listen to that it helped for it to be as accessable as possible, at the click of a button (admittedly nowadays it is via iTunes and the like). It's not ethically justifiable, but I was a kid and I had no free money and downloading was what got me hooked. We're such materialists that if we enjoy music as much as the people on this forum do, it's inevitable that our western buying obsession will spill over into our musical interests :)

It's people who consider themselves long-term fans who refuse to pay for music who are the damaging ones, because they know better - the small margins that the industry operate on, and how difficult it is to maintain performance traditions vs. a pop band who can produce an album after 1 week of learning their instruments.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 13, 2011, 03:18:18 PM

Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on July 13, 2011, 03:11:50 PM
We're such materialists that if we enjoy music as much as the people on this forum do, it's inevitable that our western buying obsession will spill over into our musical interests :)

That is so true!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on July 13, 2011, 03:49:23 PM

Quote from: jlaurson on July 13, 2011, 02:57:57 PM
Excellent. Just started with classical music by committing theft. Steal as much as you can, before that kind of behavior kills the industry.

An illegally dubbed cassette introduced me to Bird and Monk and jazz in general. I went on the purchase 400 cds of the stuff. I guess I killed the industry.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on July 13, 2011, 04:17:30 PM

Quote from: chasmaniac on July 13, 2011, 03:49:23 PM
An illegally dubbed cassette introduced me to Bird and Monk and jazz in general. I went on the purchase 400 cds of the stuff. I guess I killed the industry.

;) Let's hope it goes that route, or some similar one, after 33 tapes worth of 104 Haydn Symphonies.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on July 14, 2011, 02:17:32 AM

jlaursen: Yup, sometimes the glass really is half-full!

Speaking of symphonies, I've had delighted listens to ##52 and 53 (Imperial) recently, Fischer's renditions. And I finally plunked for the Bis reissue of the divertimenti. Anyone care to comment on this set?

(http://www.qualiton.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/001/001_1806-8.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 14, 2011, 04:18:42 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on July 14, 2011, 02:17:32 AM
jlaursen: Yup, sometimes the glass really is half-full!

Speaking of symphonies, I've had delighted listens to ##52 and 53 (Imperial) recently, Fischer's renditions. And I finally plunked for the Bis reissue of the divertimenti. Anyone care to comment on this set?

(http://www.qualiton.com/mm5/graphics/00000001/001/001_1806-8.jpg)

I think it's brilliant. See my review at Amazon. The bulk of these works were recorded several years ago for Koch/Schwann, and when they did whatever they do, BIS bought the tapes, and combined them with some newly recorded works to make a great box set. Mainly it consists in all the authenticated works from Hoboken II (which is "divertimenti for 4 or more instruments without keyboard"). Between this box and the similar one of music for the King of Naples and Esterhazy, you really get to hear the off-the-beaten-path works of Haydn. This is soooo much better than another set of London Symphonies... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on July 14, 2011, 04:33:31 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on July 14, 2011, 04:18:42 AM
I think it's brilliant. See my review at Amazon. The bulk of these works were recorded several years ago for Koch/Schwann, and when they did whatever they do, BIS bought the tapes, and combined them with some newly recorded works to make a great box set. Mainly it consists in all the authenticated works from Hoboken II (which is "divertimenti for 4 or more instruments without keyboard"). Between this box and the similar one of music for the King of Naples and Esterhazy, you really get to hear the off-the-beaten-path works of Haydn. This is soooo much better than another set of London Symphonies... :D

8)

Good to hear. I have the Naples and Overtures sets on Bis. I'm curious though whether this set includes early string quartets in larger orchestrations. Weren't those labelled "divertimenti" too?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 14, 2011, 04:49:16 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on July 14, 2011, 04:33:31 AM
Good to hear. I have the Naples and Overtures sets on Bis. I'm curious though whether this set includes early string quartets in larger orchestrations. Weren't those labelled "divertimenti" too?

Yes, those were Hob II:22 & 23. The original orchestration, played here, is string quartet + 2 Horns. The horn parts were simply excised by some early publishers in order to fill out the Op 1 & 2 sets. Along those same lines, those sets were also padded out with what are now recognized as Hob I:107 & 108, called Symphony "A" and Symphony "B". In order to make those 2 opera come out to 5 works each (after the bogus additions were removed) yet another work was incorporated. Hob II:6 (I think) was originally a "divertimento for 2 violins, viola & basso", and it has been removed from Hob II and is now in Hob III where it proudly bears the name "Opus 0". I think it is part of Op 2 now...

Confusing enough yet? :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 14, 2011, 04:52:01 AM

Just as a footnote; in speaking of those early 'string quartets', one tends to say "string quartet", but really, the part that is usually assigned to the cello nowadays was very likely not intended for a cello, but for a double bass. It isn't until Op 9 in 1769 that the bass part is actually intended for cello. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on July 14, 2011, 05:37:51 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on July 14, 2011, 04:52:01 AM
Just as a footnote; in speaking of those early 'string quartets', one tends to say "string quartet", but really, the part that is usually assigned to the cello nowadays was very likely not intended for a cello, but for a double bass. It isn't until Op 9 in 1769 that the bass part is actually intended for cello. :)

8)

I follow. Opp. 9 and 17 present fully fledged SQs. Like Athena from the thigh of Zeus!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 14, 2011, 05:59:38 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on July 14, 2011, 05:37:51 AM
I follow. Opp. 9 and 17 present fully fledged SQs. Like Athena from the thigh of Zeus!

My precise metaphorical vision. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on July 14, 2011, 06:04:33 AM

It was from the forehead of Zeus but who's counting?

;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 14, 2011, 06:11:27 AM

Quote from: Leon on July 14, 2011, 06:04:33 AM
It was from the forehead of Zeus but who's counting?

;)

Oh, sorry. Actually, my precise vision involved my forehead AND Athena's thigh somehow... >:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on July 14, 2011, 06:15:06 AM

Quote from: Leon on July 14, 2011, 06:04:33 AM
It was from the forehead of Zeus but who's counting?

;)

Either way, can't have been much fun for Zeus! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on July 14, 2011, 06:25:11 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on July 14, 2011, 06:11:27 AM
Oh, sorry. Actually, my precise vision involved my forehead AND Athena's thigh somehow... >:D

8)

She was famed as a virgin, so dream on, dream on ... but she will continue to just say no.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wanderer on July 14, 2011, 09:11:45 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on July 14, 2011, 05:37:51 AM
Like Athena from the thigh of Zeus!

That was Dionysus.

(and shame on you, Gurn! ;D)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on July 18, 2011, 04:36:44 AM

Is there somewhere here (or one of the other Haydn places) a post(s) that list either 1) Top complete string quartets collection or 2) Preferred individual releases for each group of quartets? I just realized that while I have some of the quartets, I don't have all of them. I'd like to rectify that.

Looking through here so far, you seem to, um, err, take a lot of tangents. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 18, 2011, 04:56:02 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on July 18, 2011, 04:36:44 AM
Is there somewhere here (or one of the other Haydn places) a post(s) that list either 1) Top complete string quartets collection or 2) Preferred individual releases for each group of quartets? I just realized that while I have some of the quartets, I don't have all of them. I'd like to rectify that.

Looking through here so far, you seem to, um, err, take a lot of tangents. ;D

Kind of a tough question though, Neal, because virtually every quartet has had a go at the Haydn quartets (one or another opus, several opera, or the whole dadgum thing!) since phonograph was invented. So this particular item really is a matter of taste, as in; "what do you like?" Question 2 must then be "what can you find to buy?".

My personal preference for period instrument performance recorded in good sound and by a group that I think is first-rate in this material is the Festetics Quartet. Many like the Mosaiques, and some are very taken with the newest PI set being released on Hyperion (London Haydn Quartet).

On modern instruments there is a whole host of contenders. I like the couple of releases by the Tokyo Quartet (Op 50 & 76). I find many others to be too plodding for my taste, but for all I know, that is exactly what you are looking for, so I don't knock them for that. This would include the sets from the Tatrai and the Angeles. As it happens, I like the Kodaly on Naxos, although thousands don't.

See, rec'cing something from this bunch is like passing off the tar baby; damned hard to do. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on July 18, 2011, 05:14:48 AM

Although I can't say I've heard many other performances, I feel it is reasonably safe to recommend the Quatuor Mosaïques, their two 5-CD boxes are available at Amazon for ca. sixty bucks total, and you get the Seven Last Words for string quartet, too.
http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-String-Quartets-Opp-64/dp/B001F0K004/
http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-String-Quartets-Seven-Savior/dp/B001F0JZZU/

Some Youtube samples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc34Jr9udlU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyzHgZAz6bk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G90xWkeM7X0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pu6eBdRHDlc

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on July 18, 2011, 06:30:35 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on July 18, 2011, 04:36:44 AM
Is there somewhere here (or one of the other Haydn places) a post(s) that list either 1) Top complete string quartets collection or 2) Preferred individual releases for each group of quartets? I just realized that while I have some of the quartets, I don't have all of them. I'd like to rectify that.

Looking through here so far, you seem to, um, err, take a lot of tangents. ;D

This is what I think of the box sets:

Angeles Q: slightly too serious playing, strange stereo imaging.
Tatrai Q: very dour performances, highly overrated.
Kodaly Q: despite what others say about them not having the chops for the later quartets, I think they are wrong, I think that this is the best complete cycle for being consistently good.
Buchberger Q: somewhere inbetween the overly polite, overly graceful Mosaiques and the very aggressive Festetics this is a fine set, on par with Kodaly.
Festetics Q: very exciting performances, very expensive, maybe oop.
Mosaiques Q: overly polite, makes Haydn sound like salon music, very expensive.

As you see there is one important set that I have not heard: Aeolian (spelling?). And one I really want to here, the ongoing Auryn Q cycle.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on July 18, 2011, 06:32:12 AM

I would avoid the Angeles unless you want to hear more reverb than music.

I like the Lindsays alot. The Kodalys are solid.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on July 18, 2011, 06:42:12 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on July 18, 2011, 04:36:44 AM
Is there somewhere here (or one of the other Haydn places) a post(s) that list either 1) Top complete string quartets collection or 2) Preferred individual releases for each group of quartets? I just realized that while I have some of the quartets, I don't have all of them. I'd like to rectify that.

Looking through here so far, you seem to, um, err, take a lot of tangents. ;D

I've started a survey for WETA (which I will eventually complete, probably for ionarts...) it's up to op.33 so far and it might come in handy:

op.33
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=2259 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=2259)

op.20
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1607 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1607)

op.17
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=856 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=856)

op.9
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=592 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=592)

opp.1 & 2, Introduction
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=558 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=558)

7 Last Words
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=593 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=593)

Tatrai: nothing I've heard was particularly good
Angeles: don't know. Ditto Aeolian Quartet.
Kodaly: Well.... read the above and you'll get the idea. They're charming, often very lovely... buttery in (recorded) sound and performance...
Mosaiques: not at all that expensive anymore... yes, 'polite', yes: fantastic; Haydn IS salon music in the best sense... astonishing quality of playing. Often very casual/slow.
Festetics: Not OOP but yes, can be pricey (MDT is the best source). Exciting they are, but exciting (not just to these ears) in the way that a jute-sack of drowning cats is exciting to watch (or hear). Intonation issues abound; some call it 'authentic'. That 'authentic' need not mean off-tone is shown by Mosaiques (not a complete cycle) and Buchberger.
Buchberger: Exciting, yes... sortof between Festetics and Mosaiques, very rarely any intonation problems... stylistically the other end from Kodaly, though... in that they're speed demons and lean-sounding.
Auryn: Bit expensive gotten individually... not terribly well presented on Amazon.com (yet). Total professionalism; perfect like Mosaiques, tendency toward long legato, stylistically not unlike Kodaly, though... saturated and occ. wallowing (in the best way) but with better and less soupy sound than Kodaly... if perhaps sometimes less personable charm.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on July 18, 2011, 06:45:05 AM

Here is my current piecemeal list:

Op 20-- Festetics
Op 33-- Kodaly
Op 50-- Nomos
Op 54-- Ysaye
Op 55-- Panocha
Op 64-- Buchberger
Op 71-- Auryn
Op 74-- Kocian
Op 76-- Kodaly
Op 77-- Angeles

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on July 18, 2011, 06:54:13 AM

Maybe instead of using the word polite to describe QM, I should just say surprisingly legato phrasing for a PI group. Which I guess is really not that bad, most of my favorites are modern groups that use the same type of phrasing. I just think that probably the combo of phrasing and the low tuning a little too mellow for me.

Jens I agree that Buchberger Q deliver FAST performances, but I think they hold it together so they work for me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on July 18, 2011, 06:59:44 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on July 18, 2011, 06:42:12 AM
Tatrai: nothing I've heard was particularly good

I like their Op 20 and Op 50.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on July 18, 2011, 07:26:02 AM

Quote from: DavidW on July 18, 2011, 06:54:13 AM
Maybe instead of using the word polite to describe QM, I should just say surprisingly legato phrasing for a PI group. Which I guess is really not that bad, most of my favorites are modern groups that use the same type of phrasing. I just think that probably the combo of phrasing and the low tuning a little too mellow for me.

Jens I agree that Buchberger Q deliver FAST performances, but I think they hold it together so they work for me.

True on both counts, as far as I'm concerned... although I don't let that turn me off Mosaiques...
Interestingly PI-Buchbergers don't lower their pitch: From op.33:

Quote
The Appónyi, Buchberger, Festetics, and Mosaïques are
historically informed performances on original instruments,
the Auryn, Casals, and Kodály 'modern' approaches. But
that division is far more meaningless than it might seem.
Tuning for example: The Buchbergers, although 'HIP',
play at A=440 Herz, like the 'modern' groups. The Appónyi
plays a semi tone lower at around A=415, the Mosaïques
nominally a semi tone lower, too, except not quite... The
Festetics are tuned in no-mans-land somewhere between
(421Hz, apparently), so if for some reason that's a version
you chose, here's to hoping you don't have perfect pitch.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on July 18, 2011, 07:30:42 AM

Has anyone heard Hyperion's older recordings by the Salomon Quartet?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 18, 2011, 07:41:23 AM

Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on July 18, 2011, 07:30:42 AM
Has anyone heard Hyperion's older recordings by the Salomon Quartet?

Yeah, I have the 2 Op 50 disks (very nice!) and one of the Op 74 (71?) disks. I really do like their playing, but for some odd reason (in the Op 74 disk) the recording process picked up a high pitched harmonic off the first violin that drives me nuts. I have a couple of hundreds or more disks of violins on gut strings and have never heard anything like this. In any case, it isn't on the Op 50 and that's a nice version of my favorite opus. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Clever Hans on July 18, 2011, 08:07:37 AM

I like the Mosaiques because of their warmth, abundant color, balance, and rubato, but on period instruments. Also perfect sound and intonation, no cheating with vibrato.

Their box with opp. 64, 76, 77, or just the 76 double cd is where one could start.

I can't imagine good-humored Haydn envisioned his quartets played in aggressive, international style.

Otherwise, the Jerusalem quartet's two cds have been well received.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on July 18, 2011, 08:15:58 AM

Quote from: Clever Hans on July 18, 2011, 08:07:37 AM
I like the Mosaiques because of their warmth, abundant color, balance, and rubato, but on period instruments. Also perfect sound and intonation, no cheating with vibrato.

Hmm, the Mosaiques are my favourite, but I thought that their critics often considered them too "cool" and detached...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 18, 2011, 08:25:31 AM

Quote from: Clever Hans on July 18, 2011, 08:07:37 AM
I like the Mosaiques because of their warmth

Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on July 18, 2011, 08:15:58 AM
Hmm, the Mosaiques are my favourite, but I thought that their critics often considered them too "cool" and detached...

How about warm but not overheated?

I'm another Mosaiques fan. Love Kodaly too. And Auryn.

Quote from: Clever Hans on July 18, 2011, 08:07:37 AM
Otherwise, the Jerusalem quartet's two cds have been well received.

I'm impressed by them. Based on what they've given us so far, I'd bet they'd produce a cycle as good as any.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 18, 2011, 08:27:07 AM

A resurgence of interest in Papa Haydn's String Quartets - from the posts, nothing much new seems to have appeared? I've culled these over the years and now own the 'usual suspects' already discussed:

Complete SQ Box - Buchberger Quartet (just an excellent bargain on Brilliant).

Also own all of them by various others, mainly Quatuor Festetics & Quatuor Mosaiques; one exception, Op. 50, Nomos Quartet!

Also additional performances of Op. 9 & Op. 17 w/ the London Haydn Quartet (not sure if the group has recorded any more?). :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on July 18, 2011, 08:31:19 AM

There is a series in progress by the Schuppanzigh Quartet on Accent, which I have been considering for a while. Only two volumes so far, like the Jerusalem Quartet.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on July 18, 2011, 08:31:45 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on July 18, 2011, 06:42:12 AM
I've started a survey for WETA (which I will eventually complete, probably for ionarts...) it's up to op.33 so far and it might come in handy:

op.33
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=2259 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=2259)

op.20
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1607 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=1607)

op.17
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=856 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=856)

op.9
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=592 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=592)

opp.1 & 2, Introduction
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=558 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=558)

7 Last Words
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=593 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=593)

Auryn: Bit expensive gotten individually... not terribly well presented on Amazon.com (yet). Total professionalism; perfect like Mosaiques, tendency toward long legato, stylistically not unlike Kodaly, though... saturated and occ. wallowing (in the best way) but with better and less soupy sound than Kodaly... if perhaps sometimes less personable charm.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 18, 2011, 08:25:31 AM

I'm impressed by [the Jerusalem]. Based on what they've given us so far, I'd bet they'd produce a cycle as good as any.

Jerusalem are a superb Quartet. But please: A Shostakovich Cycle from them has priority. Get your wishful thinking in line, buddy. ;)

A single Haydn disc that is full of exquisiteness and delicious promise is the one by the Minetti Quartet:

Haydn 2009 – Minetti Quartet(t)
http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=553 (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=553)

Nomos is being mentioned for op.50 -- and it is indeed a terrific set. Alongside the Tokyo Quartet's reading of op.50 (DG, ArkivCD)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 18, 2011, 09:38:45 AM

Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on July 18, 2011, 08:31:19 AM
There is a series in progress by the Schuppanzigh Quartet on Accent, which I have been considering for a while. Only two volumes so far, like the Jerusalem Quartet.

I have both of those (think there is another but haven't seen it yet). It is very nice playing, but if they are going to do a cycle, they need to get started because these disks are single quartets from all different opera. I think they won't do a cycle, they will do like L'Archibudelli does where they record the stuff they like and that's that. Still, these disks are first rate. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on July 18, 2011, 09:47:26 AM

With Haydn I try not to hold illusions that a few releases will become a full cycle - but a series building to a fair old collection à la the Mosaïques set would always be desired. They often seem to peter out after a disc or two.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 18, 2011, 10:03:42 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on July 18, 2011, 04:36:44 AM
Is there somewhere here (or one of the other Haydn places) a post(s) that list either 1) Top complete string quartets collection or 2) Preferred individual releases for each group of quartets? I just realized that while I have some of the quartets, I don't have all of them. I'd like to rectify that.

Looking through here so far, you seem to, um, err, take a lot of tangents. ;D

Whaaat??? You dare simply ask opinions??? :o >:D ::) ;D

ok,...

Op.9: LHQ
Op.17: LHQ

Op.20: you get your pick here

Op.33: Lindsays

~~Op.42: ???~~

Op.50: Nomos

Op.54/55: I have Lindsays and Endellion; would like to hear Auryn here; Smithson???

Op.65: Caspar de Salo

Op.71: the 'old' Auryn; (Amadeus)

Op.74: I have Endellion; would like to hear others; (Amadeus)

Op.76: ABQ vs. Lindsays; Auryn didn't make the cut here; Alberni; Orlando

Op.77: I have Kodaly here, somebody's favorite here,... I like it too, very solid; would like to hear Smithson

O~~p.10?: eh,...~~

You know, we have 42 Pages of detailed information on these matters! ;) :o ;D I know, I know,...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 18, 2011, 10:08:12 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on July 18, 2011, 08:27:07 AM
nothing much new seems to have appeared

the 'usual suspects' already discussed

mmm ::),...newbies!! :P How droll! :-*

Not like us!! ;) 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 18, 2011, 10:09:50 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on July 18, 2011, 08:31:45 AM
A single Haydn disc that is full of exquisiteness and delicious promise is the one by the Minetti Quartet:

Haydn 2009 – Minetti Quartet(t)
(http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=553)

... "full of exquisiteness". I have always felt that you search for some exquisite playing in Haydn. I would consider correct that search in Mozart, but inadequate for Haydn. Haydn is ironic, wise, good-humored, sad here and there, inspired by popular melodies, intelligent, but not generally exquisite or sophisticated. I think we have a "philosophical" difference here. A prolongation, I think, of your displeasure with the Festetics.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 18, 2011, 10:13:08 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on March 23, 2011, 07:12:37 AM
Am I correct that Op.64 No.1 is the only Haydn SQ without a formal slow mvmt.?

I. Allegro
II. Menuett
III. Scherzando
IV. Presto

Anyone?

Was it waaay back here in March that I asked what I thought would be a Topic Starter???,... and,... and,... all you can do is revive this Most Noble Thread for the,... uh :-\,... mere purpose of catering to the Great Unwashed Masses' flagrant lack of research and study?? :o

Shocked! :o Shocked, I tell you!! ::)

Now,... where's my promo??? 8) ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on July 18, 2011, 10:16:04 AM

Quote from: toñito on July 18, 2011, 10:09:50 AM
... "full of exquisiteness". I have always felt that you search for some exquisite playing in Haydn. I would consider correct that search in Mozart, but inadequate for Haydn. Haydn is ironic, wise, good-humored, sad here and there, inspired by popular melodies, intelligent, but not generally exquisite or sophisticated. I think we have a "philosophical" difference here. A prolongation, I think, of your displeasure with the Festetics.

Interesting comment, toñito - and I think I agree with it. However, I have yet to hear any of the recordings by the Festetics Quartet, so I must take it on faith that they inhabit this philosophical interpretive ground, that (unless I misunderstand you) you attitbute to them.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 18, 2011, 10:18:35 AM

Quote from: toñito on July 18, 2011, 10:09:50 AM
... "full of exquisiteness". I have always felt that you search for some exquisite playing in Haydn. I would consider correct that search in Mozart, but inadequate for Haydn. Haydn is ironic, wise, good-humored, sad here and there, inspired by popular melodies, intelligent, but not generally exquisite or sophisticated. I think we have a "philosophical" difference here. A prolongation, I think, of your displeasure with the Festetics.

0:)

*decides to stay out of it*

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 18, 2011, 10:24:56 AM

Quote from: Leon on July 18, 2011, 10:16:04 AM
Interesting comment, toñito - and I think I agree with it. However, I have yet to hear any of the recordings by the Festetics Quartet, so I must take it on faith that they inhabit this philosophical interpretive ground, that (unless I misunderstand you) you attitbute to them.

You have understood correctly what I was saying, Leon. IMO the Festetics have performed the best complete cycle of Haydn's string quartets in existence (beginning with the Op. 9).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on July 18, 2011, 10:28:37 AM

Quote from: toñito on July 18, 2011, 10:24:56 AM
You have understood correctly what I was saying, Leon. IMO the Festetics have performed the best complete cycle of Haydn's string quartets in existence (beginning with the Op. 9).

If that is the case then I must make a more concerted effort to find them.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on July 18, 2011, 10:30:22 AM

Quote from: toñito on July 18, 2011, 10:09:50 AM
... "full of exquisiteness". I have always felt that you search for some exquisite playing in Haydn. I would consider correct that search in Mozart, but inadequate for Haydn. Haydn is ironic, wise, good-humored, sad here and there, inspired by popular melodies, intelligent, but not generally exquisite or sophisticated. I think we have a "philosophical" difference here. A prolongation, I think, of your displeasure with the Festetics.

In this case I meant "exquisiteness" less as descriptive of their style than as a general (if possibly telling) exclamation of quality. Have you heard that particular disc? I think it digs rather deep.
I don't, in any case, think that Mozart should be looked at as a composer (only) good (enough) for exquisite playing but not "good-humored, sad here and there, inspired by popular melodies, intelligent". I do think that in some way (and esp. the sq4ts) Haydn is on a subtly higher (in any case more difficult) plane, but Mozart-playing also need to aspire to that, if it is to be successful.

Our emphasis may differ somewhat along the lines you outlined, but not so much. My objection to the Festetics is not on grounds of "too ironic" or "too lively", but on grounds of 1.) tone, 2.) intonation, 3.) (to a much lesser extend) technical facility. I don't mind long lines in Haydn, true, but have no problem when the phrasing focuses on smaller, contained units. The Buchbinders approach the Festetics in that regard, but are much easier on the ears because the playing isn't quite so sour. I really wish I had already been able to put sound-samples in the reviews when I wrote the Haydn bits (future posts will include them, presumably), so that I could make my point with the audio-material available for comparison...
The Festetics CAN sound terrifically exciting (to me) when taken on their own account, but comparison tends to sink them (for me).

I can understand that one so prefers the Festetics' style that the ears are willing to ignore tone-issues, but I cannot understand that listeners profess not even to hear them or claim that they're all part of the 'authenticity'. It's a bit the same with Fortepianos: A dried-up soundbord and rickety action are not authentic, only because they featured on many recordings claimed to be in the authentic style. It's not that difficult to distinguish between that which is done, interpretively, for stylistic reasons and that which would be a demerit for any interpretation, HIP or not.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 18, 2011, 11:06:33 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on July 18, 2011, 10:30:22 AM
In this case I meant "exquisiteness" less as descriptive of their style than as a general (if possibly telling) exclamation of quality. Have you heard that particular disc? I think it digs rather deep.

No, I didn't hear this particular disc because I am quite retired of listening string quartets from the Classical period on modern instruments. I have no problems listening string quartets from Beethoven onwards, but today Haydn and Mozart only exist to me on period performances. Sad, but true.

Quote from: jlaurson on July 18, 2011, 10:30:22 AM
I don't, in any case, think that Mozart should be looked at as a composer (only) good (enough) for exquisite playing but not "good-humored, sad here and there, inspired by popular melodies, intelligent". I do think that in some way (and esp. the sq4ts) Haydn is on a subtly higher (in any case more difficult) plane, but Mozart-playing also need to aspire to that, if it is to be successful.

I agree with you, but my comment is not about issues such as greatness, deepness or subtlety of both composers, but principally on their respective formation as musicians and the audiences that they had in mind when composed their music. Haydn is always more "rural" and rough than Mozart who's always more "salon-esque".

Quote from: jlaurson on July 18, 2011, 10:30:22 AM
... but on grounds of 1.) tone, 2.) intonation, 3.) (to a much lesser extend) technical facility.

I think this is the true theme here. Currently, I consider inappropriate the kind of "perfect and slightly steely" tone and intonation used, for instance, by the old Julliard String Quartet to perform Classical repertoire. So it's probably an issue about the "model" of good or bad intonation that we have in mind. In these ears Festetics' tone and intonation sound just perfect and their instruments and recordings superb.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on July 18, 2011, 11:07:28 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on July 18, 2011, 10:18:35 AM
0:)

*decides to stay out of it*

8)

Me tooooo. 0:) 8) Though I emphatically concur with antoine's toñito's image of Haydn.

Quote from: toñito on July 18, 2011, 10:24:56 AM
You have understood correctly what I was saying, Leon. IMO the Festetics have performed the best complete cycle of Haydn's string quartets in existence (beginning with the Op. 9).

Hear, hear! (http://chat.kaper.com/emoticons/party25.gif)

Q :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Peregrine on July 18, 2011, 11:43:25 AM

My current picks would be:

Op.20 - Tatrai/Juilliard
Op.33 - Apponyi
Op.50 - Amati
Op.54 - Juilliard
Op.55 - Panocha
Op.64 - Caspar Da Solo
Op.71 - Griller
Op.74 - Griller
Op.76 - Carmina (honorary mentions to Panocha and Tatrai)
Op.77 - Tatrai

Could get into individual quartets, but that could take some time...!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on July 18, 2011, 12:20:17 PM

Quote from: Peregrine WITH COMMENTS BY MANDRYKA IN CAPITALS on July 18, 2011, 11:43:25 AM
My current picks would be:

Op.20 - Tatrai/Juilliard
TATRAI AGREED. HAVEN'T HEARD JUILLIARD
Op.33 - Apponyi
AGREED
Op.50 - Amati
THOUGHT THEY WERE DULL COMPARED WITH TATRAI
Op.54 - Juilliard
HAVEN'T HEARD
Op.55 - Panocha
AGREED
Op.64 - Caspar Da Solo
WHO?
Op.71 - Griller
Op.74 - Griller
NEED TO LISTEN AGAIN -- AREN'T THEY A BT TOO HIGHLY STRUNG?
Op.76 - Carmina (honorary mentions to Panocha and Tatrai)
AHH -- INTERESTING
Op.77 - Tatrai
HAVEN'T HEARD -- WILL DO SO THOUGH
Could get into individual quartets, but that could take some time...!

WHAT'S YOUR SINGLE FAVOURITE HAYDN QUARTET RECORDING?

WHICH ARE THE JUILLIARD RECORDS YOU LIKE?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on July 18, 2011, 12:24:55 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on July 18, 2011, 12:20:17 PM
WHICH ARE THE JUILLIARD RECORDS YOU LIKE?

The ones they did with Raphael Hillyer on viola

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on July 18, 2011, 12:39:11 PM

Quote from: toñito on July 18, 2011, 11:06:33 AM
Haydn is always more "rural" and rough than Mozart who's always more "salon-esque".

Purely biographically speaking, it's the exact reverse that is true. Where the idea of Haydn being 'rural' comes from, I cannot fathom. Ever been to Esterháza? It's Roccoco dreamland out there, every tree cut like a French poodle and luxury abounded. Haydn was there for what would have been more than 2/3 of Mozart's entire life. It may be 'not urban', but is sure is 'not rural' in any practical sense. All there was, was a, well, salon to composer for.

Haydn hat wit, and wrote the better symphonies and quartets (I think), and he had spunk... but to listen to Don Giovanni and come away with the idea of Mozart as a 'salon-esque' composer is patently absurd.

You *can* justify any listening preference with such ideas, of course, but that doesn't make them reality. There is no such easy division into "rural" and "salonesque", not one way or the other... the music ought to be taken at its own level. As far as I am concerned, Haydn's music is good enough to withstand any number of different approaches, be they treacly-romantic (Kodaly) or with lean-indulgent-perfection (Mosaiques) or devil-may-care (Buchbinders) or late-classical refinement (Auryn) or however one might wish to label the many different, independently successful approaches.

Quotebecause I am quite retired of listening string quartets from the Classical period on modern instruments.

'tis a shame, for you are missing out on at least as much good music as someone who was tired of listening to string quartets from the Classical period on 'historical instruments'.
(Never mind that the "instrument" question in string quartets is rather besides the point when it comes to HIP; it's 80% in technique/stylistics, 10% in bow, 9% in the strings, and 1% in the actual instrument. Or maybe a bit more on the part of the instrument if one re-constructs bridge-height, and finger-board angle.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Peregrine on July 18, 2011, 12:42:44 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on July 18, 2011, 12:20:17 PM
WHAT'S YOUR SINGLE FAVOURITE HAYDN QUARTET RECORDING?

Juilliard - Op.77/1, Smetana Op.33/3, Op.64/5 would certainly be at, or near the top...

Yours?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on July 18, 2011, 01:09:43 PM

Peregrine, I like your list.

Mandryka, Caspar da Solo is the quartet that appeared on the Pilz label. I think they mostly pirated other recordings and made up ensembles to fit, so who knows who they really are.

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/6f/86/3fa59833e7a0430171002110.L.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Peregrine on July 18, 2011, 02:08:23 PM

Quote from: DavidW on July 18, 2011, 01:09:43 PM
Peregrine, I like your list.

Thanks.

Quote from: DavidW on July 18, 2011, 01:09:43 PM
Mandryka, Caspar da Solo is the quartet that appeared on the Pilz label. I think they mostly pirated other recordings and made up ensembles to fit, so who knows who they really are.

Yes, it's all a bit of mystery. Fabulous set though and better than the others I have - Festetics and Medici (IMO).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 18, 2011, 04:35:10 PM

Quote from: jlaurson on July 18, 2011, 12:39:11 PM
All there was, was a, well, salon to compose for.

Haydn hat wit, and wrote the better symphonies and quartets (I think), and he had spunk... but to listen to Don Giovanni and come away with the idea of Mozart as a 'salon-esque' composer is patently absurd.

Despite my assertion that i would stay out of this discussion ( ::) ), there is one point that I would like to dispute with you anyway, Jens. Nothing to do with "HIPness", BTW. This is your characterization of Haydn's (everyone's ??? ) chamber music as "salon music". Salon music has a very specific definition, and it is far different than the reality of Haydn's string quartet writing. One of the most important aspects of these works, right from the beginning until the time that he began to write them for commercial use (and probably even after that) is that they were composed for musicians to play together for each other, and whether there was an audience apart from that was a matter of no consequence. Clearly salon music is entirely the opposite, it is specifically played for an audience. It may be used as background music or for virtuoso display. Neither of these qualities is particularly relevant to the original conception of the string quartet. Esterhazy had little use for string quartets, BTW. His idea of chamber music was the Baryton Trio. Otherwise he was far more interested in symphonies as instrumental music, and even those in smallish doses compared to his real preference, which was opera and large vocal work (sacred or profane). So Haydn's small scale chamber music was really composed for his own use; early on to play with his friends, and later, when he could legally do so, to sell to publishers (who would have stolen it anyway). :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Hanover Band / Monica Huggett - Bia 203 Op 21 Symphony #1 in C 2nd mvmt - Andante cantabile con moto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 18, 2011, 06:30:17 PM

Quote from: jlaurson on July 18, 2011, 12:39:11 PM
Purely biographically speaking, it's the exact reverse that is true. Where the idea of Haydn being 'rural' comes from, I cannot fathom. Ever been to Esterháza? It's Roccoco dreamland out there, every tree cut like a French poodle and luxury abounded. Haydn was there for what would have been more than 2/3 of Mozart's entire life. It may be 'not urban', but is sure is 'not rural' in any practical sense. All there was, was a, well, salon to composer for.

Haydn hat wit, and wrote the better symphonies and quartets (I think), and he had spunk... but to listen to Don Giovanni and come away with the idea of Mozart as a 'salon-esque' composer is patently absurd.

No, I have not been in Esterháza, Jens. I am not precisely a natural-born traveller. But I know some things - not much, it's true - about my favorite composers. And, yes, beyond the sumptuous palaces and buildings, Esterháza was totally provincial and socially nothing compared with Vienna, Paris or any medium-sized European city. What kind of "salon" existed in Esterháza, Jens? Could Haydn to talk every night with the most famous composers of his age? Because if this kind of "salon" existed in Esterháza, Haydn never noticed it (on the contrary, he and his musicians were always hoping to run away from Esterháza and going some days to Vienna).

Or haven't you read this memorable quotation written in one of the first Haydn biographies (by G.A. Griesinger):

"My prince was satisfied with my work, he applauded it, as director of an orchestra I could make experiments, I could observe what caused an impression and what produced a weak impact; I could add, improve, cut, take risks. I was cut off from the world. There was no one to confuse or torment me, and I was forced to become original."

It was the Haydn description on his own life in Esterháza; his most meaningful description on 30 years of his life! So I supposse I am entitled to think the adjective "salonesque" is simply wrong when we talk about Haydn's life there. Beyond sumptuous buildings, life in Esterháza was "provincial" at its best (if you don't like the word "rural").

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on July 18, 2011, 07:17:06 PM

Quote from: jlaurson on July 18, 2011, 08:31:45 AM
Jerusalem are a superb Quartet. But please: A Shostakovich Cycle from them has priority. Get your wishful thinking in line, buddy. ;)

Well, their first Shostakovich CD is apparently now OOP (available only for download from HM, although I got hold of a new one through Arkivmusic) and their most recent release is a Mozart CD, so both of you may be wishing for a while.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on July 19, 2011, 03:05:12 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on July 18, 2011, 04:35:10 PM
Despite my assertion that i would stay out of this discussion ( ::) ), there is one point that I would like to dispute with you anyway, Jens. Nothing to do with "HIPness", BTW. This is your characterization of Haydn's (everyone's ??? ) chamber music as "salon music".

I never said that. I just stated that the idea of Haydn as the anti-salon composer and Mozart as the salon-music composer is absurd.

Quote"...and whether there was an audience apart from that was a matter of no consequence."

That bit is pure conjecture... flavored by the romantic, post-Schubertian 'ideal' of the composer who composes in sheer isolation, out of an innert need.

Quote"Clearly salon music is entirely the opposite, it is specifically played for an audience."

And that's hardly a sufficient definition of salon music.

Quote"So Haydn's small scale chamber music was really composed for his own use; early on to play with his friends, and later, when he could legally do so, to sell to publishers (who would have stolen it anyway)."

Even if I *had* said that Haydn's SQ4ts were salon music, which I didn't, what you say is not untrue, but doesn't support the conclusion you seem to take away from it... something about the very opposite of your definition of salon music, whatever that may be.

What I don't understand is why you need wildly construed assumptions about Haydn's music and his intentions in composing it to support your very subjective, personal listening habits.
So you prefer Festetcis. So do a few other people. There's nothing wrong with that. If you like it that way, there's not need to come up with some theory that suggests that it's to be liked because it is so particularly true to the spirit of the work.

The fact is that we don't know how the music was played when Haydn and Co. took off their wigs and rehearsed it... whether they were digging into their instruments like four buzz-saws on steroids or whether they delighted in dainty plinky-dink. Fair game to make assumptions about stylistic preferences of the time (beyond the extant facts we have, about technique, instruments, et al.), but these assumptions don't 'justify' your preferences and they don't 'justify' mine in any meanignful way.

Quote from: toñito on July 18, 2011, 06:30:17 PM
...I know some things ... about my favorite composers.Esterháza was totally provincial and socially nothing compared with Vienna... What kind of "salon" existed in Esterháza, Jens?

I see our misunderstanding might have arisen, in part, due to different ideas of what "salon" means, and what a salon is. An extension of court society, to put it succinctly. Not necessarily (or not even at all, depending on which sociologist/historian you ask) a gathering of the 'broader, intelligent public'. Exchange with the most famous composer of his age is not the defining criteria in my book, for "salon". Not that Haydn didn't have exchanges with the most famous composers of his age... after all he wasn't JUST cooped up at Esterháza, he spent his winters at Schloss Esterházy and (half the distance and much better connected) consequently Vienna.

I'd relinquish the term "salon" if I had brought it up (I didn't) and introduce "courtly", instead.

QuoteSo I supposse I am entitled to think the adjective "salonesque" is simply wrong when we talk about Haydn's life there. Beyond sumptuous buildings, life in Esterháza was "provincial" at its best (if you don't like the word "rural").

You're entitled to think anything you wish. :) You're even entitled to think that I used the adjective "salonesque" describing Haydn's life (based on one sole mention of "All there was, was a, well, salon to compose for."

Lots of effort taking down a straw man, I must say. I merely object to the ascribing as the distinguishing difference between Mozart that one is "rural" (i.e. rustic?? i.e. wild and adventurous? ) and the other "salonesque" (i.e. dainty and refined, pretty but... meaningless?)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 19, 2011, 04:33:55 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on July 19, 2011, 03:05:12 AM
I never said that. I just stated that the idea of Haydn as the anti-salon composer and Mozart as the salon-music composer is absurd.

You also mentioned it earlier. And your statement this time, mentioned here, was clearly directed towards leading the reader to that POV.

QuoteThat bit is pure conjecture... flavored by the romantic, post-Schubertian 'ideal' of the composer who composes in sheer isolation, out of an innert need.

No it isn't conjecture. Also, it has nothing to do with your posi-Schubertian whatever or any Beethovenian tragic bullshit either. It is simply a fact. You did present a nice example of conjecture there to compare to, however...

QuoteAnd that's hardly a sufficient definition of salon music.

I wasn't defining it, I was pointing out a couple of its definitive characteristics. Superciliousness doesn't become you, sir.

QuoteEven if I *had* said that Haydn's SQ4ts were salon music, which I didn't, what you say is not untrue, but doesn't support the conclusion you seem to take away from it... something about the very opposite of your definition of salon music, whatever that may be.

Actually, Haydn DID write some 'salon music'. Some of the keyboard sonatas, the accompanied sonatas (keyboard trios) and the Lieder for Soprano & Keyboard were clearly written with a salon atmosphere in mind. But he didn't do it in any way to advance his career; his career was solidly built already and his employer looked at those musical bon-bons as... musical bon0bons. So I am not taking umbrage on Haydn's behalf, which perhaps you think I am. I am merely clearing up some historical inaccuracies. Mozart, OTOH, thrived in the salon. A great amount of his work in the early Vienna years, and even for a few years before then, was specifically directed towards the salon, because that's where his support base was built. He was delighted to spend an afternoon and evening playing and accompanying others, and schmoozing with the patrons. No shame in that, it is how life was for independent musicians then.

QuoteWhat I don't understand is why you need wildly construed assumptions about Haydn's music and his intentions in composing it to support your very subjective, personal listening habits.
So you prefer Festetcis. So do a few other people. There's nothing wrong with that. If you like it that way, there's not need to come up with some theory that suggests that it's to be liked because it is so particularly true to the spirit of the work.

The fact is that we don't know how the music was played when Haydn and Co. took off their wigs and rehearsed it... whether they were digging into their instruments like four buzz-saws on steroids or whether they delighted in dainty plinky-dink. Fair game to make assumptions about stylistic preferences of the time (beyond the extant facts we have, about technique, instruments, et al.), but these assumptions don't 'justify' your preferences and they don't 'justify' mine in any meanignful way.

You must be taking to Toñio here. I don't care a bit what anyone else likes. :)

QuoteI see our misunderstanding might have arisen, in part, due to different ideas of what "salon" means, and what a salon is. An extension of court society, to put it succinctly. Not necessarily (or not even at all, depending on which sociologist/historian you ask) a gathering of the 'broader, intelligent public'. Exchange with the most famous composer of his age is not the defining criteria in my book, for "salon". Not that Haydn didn't have exchanges with the most famous composers of his age... after all he wasn't JUST cooped up at Esterháza, he spent his winters at Schloss Esterházy and (half the distance and much better connected) consequently Vienna.

I'd relinquish the term "salon" if I had brought it up (I didn't) and introduce "courtly", instead.

I would accept courtly. And with the points I added earlier, I would just want to say that Haydn DID write some classic salon music. It just wasn't the string quartets. But neither were they courtly. There isn't the slightest indication in any documents that Esterhazy ever even heard any of them. And the archives of the family contain hundreds if not thousands of documents that discuss day-to-day musical business. Many genres are mentioned, but not quartets. Of course, negative evidence is not evidence, but the assertion that Haydn only wrote the early quartets (and string trios, BTW) for himself, after an early exposure (1755-56) at Castle Fürstenburg is probably on very safe ground.

QuoteYou're entitled to think anything you wish. :) You're even entitled to think that I used the adjective "salonesque" describing Haydn's life (based on one sole mention of "All there was, was a, well, salon to compose for."

Lots of effort taking down a straw man, I must say. I merely object to the ascribing as the distinguishing difference between Mozart that one is "rural" (i.e. rustic?? i.e. wild and adventurous? ) and the other "salonesque" (i.e. dainty and refined, pretty but... meaningless?)

It was no effort on my part. I read a book. Mozart did write a fair amount f his work for the salon. Is it representative of his entire oeuvre? Hell no! Nor should it be used to characterize him, since that is how the Romantics did and they held his music in low esteem (with a few exceptions) for over a century because of it. But the rustic aspect of Haydn's music can't be denied either. Among all the other devices he used (and he used all of them!) was the incorporation of folk and ethnic (genuine or composed??) themes in much of his music. And this especially includes the quartets. There are very far fewer examples in Mozart that one could point out. So if one looks at the statements regarding rusticity vs urbanity, I think they are fair as long as they are limited in context and not overall generalizations.

It's OK, amigo, I really don't want you to listen to these works with my ears, nor would I listen with yours. That's why there are so many versions available. I think it is fair to say that if one limits ones adjectives a bit and just says "I don't like that versions" instead of trying to see how creatively one can deride them, then this sort of antipathy wouldn't crop up as it does. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Grazioso on July 19, 2011, 05:07:08 AM

Quote from: toñito on July 18, 2011, 11:06:33 AM
Haydn is always more "rural" and rough than Mozart who's always more "salon-esque".

I was listening to/studying Op. 76 #6 yesterday. I couldn't imagine that either "rural" or "rough" would apply well to such a pioneering, intellectually rigorous work. In the first movement you have an essentially monothematic set of variations-cum-fugue, with a theme that repeats while the variations are being played. A second movement that is so "out there" harmonically that Haydn doesn't even give it a key signature for much of its length. The third movement trio systematically works through scales. The fourth movement offers extensive and varied syncopations. Nothing rough about any of that, nor rural in the sense of simple dance tunes with a Scotch Snap--or would that be a Hungarian Snap? ;D (And yes, I know he resorted to Gypsy-ish tunes, but an educated court composer appropriating some popular tunes doesn't make him rough or rural, it's just a question of the material he liked to source.)

I'm no expert, but from what I've observed I'd say a better way to differentiate the two composers would be to note the relative thematic austerity of Haydn versus the profligacy of Mozart, a trait noted by contemporaries like Dittersdorf:

"Mozart does not give the listener time to catch his breath, for no sooner is one inclined to reflect upon a beautiful inspiration than another appears, even more splendid, which drives away the first, and this continues on and on, so that in the end one is unable to retain any of these beauties in the memory."

Haydn will studiously investigate an idea until it's spent, Mozart will say, "Hey, check out this cool idea! Wait, wait, here's another one. Oh, and this one, too! Wait, I'm not done! I got more...keep up with me, folks" ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 19, 2011, 05:34:48 AM

Quote from: Grazioso on July 19, 2011, 05:07:08 AM
I was listening to/studying Op. 76 #6 yesterday. I couldn't imagine that either "rural" or "rough" would apply well to such a pioneering, intellectually rigorous work. In the first movement you have an essentially monothematic set of variations-cum-fugue, with a theme that repeats while the variations are being played. A second movement that is so "out there" harmonically that Haydn doesn't even give it a key signature for much of its length. The third movement trio systematically works through scales. The fourth movement offers extensive and varied syncopations. Nothing rough about any of that, nor rural in the sense of simple dance tunes with a Scotch Snap--or would that be a Hungarian Snap? ;D (And yes, I know he resorted to Gypsy-ish tunes, but an educated court composer appropriating some popular tunes doesn't make him rough or rural, it's just a question of the material he liked to source.)

I'm no expert, but from what I've observed I'd say a better way to differentiate the two composers would be to note the relative thematic austerity of Haydn versus the profligacy of Mozart, a trait noted by contemporaries like Dittersdorf:

"Mozart does not give the listener time to catch his breath, for no sooner is one inclined to reflect upon a beautiful inspiration than another appears, even more splendid, which drives away the first, and this continues on and on, so that in the end one is unable to retain any of these beauties in the memory."

Haydn will studiously investigate an idea until it's spent, Mozart will say, "Hey, check out this cool idea! Wait, wait, here's another one. Oh, and this one, too! Wait, I'm not done! I got more...keep up with me, folks" ;)

I am always amused by people who say they can't tell one from the other. As you point out, the music is so entirely different that it screams out at you.

I've often wondered at Haydn's motivation for using local themes. Was he reminiscing about music he grew up with? Certainly that is exactly what he heard up until he got dragged off to school. Or maybe he is simply using every device possible, from strict canon to Gypsy dance music, to make his music as varied and colorful as possible. I think probably a combination of those and or factors I haven't even thought of. It is an interesting facet of his music, no matter his motives. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Grazioso on July 19, 2011, 10:40:26 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on July 19, 2011, 05:34:48 AM
I've often wondered at Haydn's motivation for using local themes. Was he reminiscing about music he grew up with? Certainly that is exactly what he heard up until he got dragged off to school. Or maybe he is simply using every device possible, from strict canon to Gypsy dance music, to make his music as varied and colorful as possible. I think probably a combination of those and or factors I haven't even thought of. It is an interesting facet of his music, no matter his motives. :)

I think that sort of omnivorous approach is typical of many serious musicians, who tend to put curiosity before dogma. It can create some very memorable music, like Mahler with his village-band episodes and his bizarre Tim Burton-esque take on "Frere Jacques/Bruder Martin," or Coltrane co-opting "My Favorite Things" to spectacular effect.

And what composer is going to resist using a catchy tune? Wait, don't answer that!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on July 19, 2011, 11:28:54 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on July 18, 2011, 04:35:10 PM
Despite my assertion that i would stay out of this discussion ( ::) ), there is one point that I would like to dispute with you anyway, Jens. Nothing to do with "HIPness", BTW. This is your characterization of Haydn's (everyone's ??? ) chamber music as "salon music". Salon music has a very specific definition, and it is far different than the reality of Haydn's string quartet writing. One of the most important aspects of these works, right from the beginning until the time that he began to write them for commercial use (and probably even after that) is that they were composed for musicians to play together for each other, and whether there was an audience apart from that was a matter of no consequence. Clearly salon music is entirely the opposite, it is specifically played for an audience.

The appropriate term is 'chamber music'

The other matter in dispute is whether Haydn wrote 'better' string quartets than Haydn. I think it's more useful to say Haydn wrote more excellent quartets than Mozart did, just as he wrote more excellent Symphonies than Beethoven did. Many more.

But IMO Haydn never reached the dizzying heights of Mozart's K387.

But I don't mean to say Mozart wrote better quartets.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 20, 2011, 04:13:12 AM

Quote from: Herman on July 19, 2011, 11:28:54 PM
The appropriate term is 'chamber music'

The other matter in dispute is whether Haydn wrote 'better' string quartets than Haydn. I think it's more useful to say Haydn wrote more excellent quartets than Mozart did, just as he wrote more excellent Symphonies than Beethoven did. Many more.

But IMO Haydn never reached the dizzying heights of Mozart's K387.

But I don't mean to say Mozart wrote better quartets.

Certainly by today's understanding, chamber music is exactly correct. Although in Haydn's own time, the word was used for such a broad range of music that it covered just about everything that wasn't either sacred or operatic. And for all I know, there were chamber operas... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on July 20, 2011, 06:37:52 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on July 20, 2011, 04:13:12 AM
And for all I know, there were chamber operas... :D

Well the orchestras do perform in a pit after all... ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on July 20, 2011, 06:42:54 AM

Quote from: DavidW on July 20, 2011, 06:37:52 AM
Well the orchestras do perform in a pit after all... ;D

not then, they didn't.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on July 20, 2011, 06:50:29 AM

Well when did that start?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on July 20, 2011, 06:55:40 AM

Quote from: DavidW on July 20, 2011, 06:50:29 AM
Well when did that start?

Different times in different places, as it was a gradual thing. But roughly in the late 18th century the orchestra moved off, and in front of the stage; early/mid 19th century there were actual, but very shallow (un-hidden) pits, and later that century the pits became deeper, cumulating (if you will) in the completely hidden pit a la Bayreuth (which is the exception). Most opera houses have been re-fitted with movable pits to account for the different needs of different operas (and the instruments that go along with it).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 20, 2011, 07:18:26 AM

Yup. In fact, the musicians used to stand for the entire performance; nary a chair in sight except for the continuo keyboardist. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on July 20, 2011, 07:24:49 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on July 20, 2011, 07:18:26 AM
Yup. In fact, the musicians used to stand for the entire performance; nary a chair in sight except for the continuo keyboardist. :)

8)

I suppose the nobility liked to remind the musicians of their places that way. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on July 21, 2011, 10:57:23 PM

Quote from: jlaurson on July 18, 2011, 10:30:22 AM
In this case I meant "exquisiteness" less as descriptive of their style than as a general (if possibly telling) exclamation of quality. Have you heard that particular disc? I think it digs rather deep.

I think that Haenssler disc has some really nice things in it -- I love the way they play the first movement of Op 76/5. And as you point out, there are some very memorable moments in the adagio of the Op 64. They are a band to watch for sure.

I have an mp3 of the Menotti playing in Vienna in 2010: the Lark and some Ligeti and Mendelssohn. Let me know if you want it.

I'd love to know why you like Nomos Op 50 and why you don't like Tatrai in the same music.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on July 23, 2011, 11:00:28 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on July 21, 2011, 10:57:23 PM
I'd love to know why you like Nomos Op 50 and why you don't like Tatrai in the same music.

I've heard relatively little of the Tatrai (mostly before op.50 et al., not op.50 itself, and long ago), and not a particularly good memory. Although they have been recommended to me here and there.
Op.50 I've got to get back into, anyway... when I continue the Haydn Cycle. Probably in toto then, for a new classical music outlet that's in the planning.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on July 23, 2011, 03:12:10 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on July 19, 2011, 05:34:48 AM
I've often wondered at Haydn's motivation for using local themes. Was he reminiscing about music he grew up with? Certainly that is exactly what he heard up until he got dragged off to school. Or maybe he is simply using every device possible, from strict canon to Gypsy dance music, to make his music as varied and colorful as possible. I think probably a combination of those and or factors I haven't even thought of. It is an interesting facet of his music, no matter his motives. :)

I suppose first thing we must remember while thinking about Haydn and even about Beethoven is that in fact there was no Classical Music genre in Classical Period. I mean no music for concert halls written in special exclusive concert hall tradition. So there was no rule and no special reason to avoid themes from diffrent traditions if they were able to be useful.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 23, 2011, 08:32:16 PM

Quote from: jlaurson on July 23, 2011, 11:00:28 AM
I've heard relatively little of the Tatrai (mostly before op.50 et al., not op.50 itself, and long ago), and not a particularly good memory. Although they have been recommended to me here and there.
Op.50 I've got to get back into, anyway... when I continue the Haydn Cycle. Probably in toto then, for a new classical music outlet that's in the planning.

Quote from: Mandryka on July 21, 2011, 10:57:23 PM

I think that Haenssler disc has some really nice things in it -- I love the way they play the first movement of Op 76/5. And as you point out, there are some very memorable moments in the adagio of the Op 64. They are a band to watch for sure.

I have an mp3 of the Menotti playing in Vienna in 2010: the Lark and some Ligeti and Mendelssohn. Let me know if you want it.

I'd love to know why you like Nomos Op 50 and why you don't like Tatrai in the same music.

I had Tatrai in Op.76, and, although I thought they exuded that 'old world charm', there were just little things here and there, some tempos, and the sound somewhat, and they didn't survive The Culling.

I've read suuuch reviews about this group that I would only be interested in the set that Everyone can agree is their greatest moment. Maybe some are saying that every moment by them is great, but I've heard terrible things, I believe about their Op.33, and so forth, so,... I don't know, is Op.50 maybe their best work,... or no??

Haydn's Op.50: The Epitome of High Classicism

by snyprrr

I rather hear that around the completion of Op.50 (is it @1789?), a New Style that has been festering since Haydn's Op.33, a Style that has broken from the Ultra-Late Baroque of Op.20, has emerged, High Classicism. The most characteristic sound of HC, as epitomized by Haydn's Op.50 and Pleyel's SQs of the same year, is a 'Whiteness', an almost porcelain cleanliness, synonymous with palace gardens. Every bush is trimmed!

I have only heard the Nomos in this, and I fondly remember the exchange with Gurn at the time, and my initial displeasure with this apparently 'boring', 'White' (Whitehall, white wigs, white columns, 1789, etc.,...), music. The Nomos play this music threadbare, in a very nice and tight acoustic, and the result is the cleanest and most musical 'play' of notes,... pure 'Music', with no Romantic 'Intention', and played with every turn on a dime. In a way, the players' personal take on HIPness, which eschews vibrato to an almost Xenakis-like degree, gives this music a pencil thin sharpness that heightens the sense of geometry and balance that give these pieces such architectural satisfaction.

Where Op.33 is florid and spritely, Op.50 is manicured and stately. But, however much different Op.50 is from Op.33, which are separated by about a decade, the differences between Op.50 and Opp. 54/55 , seem even greater, considering that in the latter we have an instance suggesting the 'Birth of the Romantic'.

But, see here too, how Style changes in just a few years. The big 'Beethoven Moment' in Op.50 is the beginning of No.4, in f# minor, that quotes the 'Fate' theme of LvB's Symphony No.5. Here in the SQ, the theme is played strictly as Music, with no intent of drama, the minor key adding no real frisson as it does in the Beethoven. But, if we look at the big 'Beethoven Moment' in Op.54/2, the trio of the scherzo, we hear what does seem to sound like 'yearning', or some type of 'emotion'. We can argue, but, what I think I'm showing, is that the 'Era' of "High Classicism' probably lasted through the '89-'91 Concert Seasons, before things began to... haha, 'mellow', as they used to say in the 1970s.

I know I'm fudging stuff, but I will certainly declare a 'peak', which I maintain happened @1789, brought forth a 'Style of the Moment', which is exquisitely embodied in Haydn's Op. 50,... as played by the Nomos! ;D I can only imagine the Tokyo sounding totally different, bringing out perhaps totally different aspects of the music?

I think perhaps one of my many Lost Points is that this particular set I think benefits from cleanliness that HIPwareness brings, and I wonder how an 'old fashioned' group like the Tatrai would sound. Especially for me, I have never heard any other version,.. oh no, I do remember our friend sent me the Festetics here, I think,... I'll check,... anyhow, I'm very very satisfied with the singular Nomos. It is important when any random group records just a specific Haydn set. I think the Nomos secretly bring out some Ultra Modern (for the time,... highlighting the Music's uniqueness in history as something Totally New at the time) aspects of this music: it's like they're saying, Is this some wild stuff or what?!!

I'm curious how Modern Op.50 sounded to audiences of the time. I believe the Nomos unlock a portal of sound to a very very special Drawing Room.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 24, 2011, 05:02:51 AM

Hi friends,

I am in the market for expanding my Haydn collection, I have a decent collection of symphonies but am excited to expand to some SQ and sonatas.
I prefer to explore HIP performances and was wondering if there is a good reference guide to HIP discs?
I browsed this thread, which is great and informative, but also quite large. I was looking at ArkivMusic which is great but it mixes all HIP and modern recordings.
Thank you in advance!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 24, 2011, 06:47:36 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 24, 2011, 05:02:51 AM
I am in the market for expanding my Haydn collection, I have a decent collection of symphonies but am excited to expand to some SQ and sonatas.
I prefer to explore HIP performances and was wondering if there is a good reference guide to HIP discs?...............

Well, there are some other threads on Papa Haydn or ones in which he is oft discussed (e.g. Gurn's Classical corner).

But from my own collection just to provide a few starters for consideration, and I'm sure others will pop in w/ their suggestions:

String Quartets - Quaturo Festetics, Quatuor Mosaiques, & London Haydn Quartet (latter have done only Op. 9 & 17).

Keyboard Sonatas - Christine Schornsheim & Ronald Brautigam. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on July 24, 2011, 12:18:21 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on July 23, 2011, 08:32:16 PM

But, see here too, how Style changes in just a few years. The big 'Beethoven Moment' in Op.50 is the beginning of No.4, in f# minor, that quotes the 'Fate' theme of LvB's Symphony No.5. Here in the SQ, the theme is played strictly as Music, with no intent of drama, the minor key adding no real frisson as it does in the Beethoven.

Haydn Opus 50: 1787
Beethoven Symphpny nr 5: 1808
:'(

Feel free to explain how Haydn was "quoting" something that was 20 years into the future.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 24, 2011, 12:48:47 PM

Quote from: Herman on July 24, 2011, 12:18:21 PM
Haydn Opus 50: 1787
Beethoven Symphpny nr 5: 1808
:'(

Feel free to explain how Haydn was "quoting" something that was 20 years into the future.

That's very easy, Herman. Every genius "creates", at some extent, his own precursors. There are some features that only are apparent or perceptible after the output of the genius. That's the reason why we can "detect", for instance, "Kafkian" or "Beethovenian" traces even in authors or composers previous to Kafka or Beethoven. It's like a quotation avant la lettre. :)

That said: I consider that Haydn was a greater genius than Beethoven. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 24, 2011, 01:00:24 PM

Quote from: toñito on July 24, 2011, 12:48:47 PM
That's very easy, Herman. Every genius "creates", at some extent, his own precursors. There are some features that only are apparent or perceptible after the output of the genius. That's the reason why we can "detect", for instance, "Kafkian" or "Beethovenian" traces even in authors or composers previous to Kafka or Beethoven. It's like a quotation avant la lettre. :)

That said: I consider that Haydn was a greater genius than Beethoven. :)

Yes, but since time is directional (and one-way), Beethoven would be quoting Haydn rather than the other way around. I am sure that is what Herman is getting at. And rightly so, of course. Haydn is therefore stating a theme which would later be used by Beethoven etc... :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03 48 Quartet in f for Strings Op 50 #5 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 24, 2011, 01:07:51 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on July 24, 2011, 01:00:24 PM
Yes, but since time is directional (and one-way)

:o

This time I prefer my explanation, Gurn. It's more, say, poetic. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 24, 2011, 01:10:26 PM

Quote from: toñito on July 24, 2011, 01:07:51 PM
:o

This time I prefer my explanation, Gurn. It's more, say, poetic. ;)

Ah, I see. I can live with the mystical. Herman is a very practical man, however, so he will have to reach hi inner peace on his own then, I'm afraid. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03 48 Quartet in f for Strings Op 50 #5 3rd mvmt - Menuetto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on July 24, 2011, 01:17:51 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on July 24, 2011, 01:10:26 PM
Ah, I see. I can live with the mystical. Herman is a very practical man, however, so he will have to reach hi inner peace on his own then, I'm afraid. :)

I see, too.

Anyway, I was very proud of my find: a quotation avant la lettre. Nice, isn't it? ;D ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 24, 2011, 01:22:09 PM

Quote from: toñito on July 24, 2011, 01:17:51 PM
I see, too.

Anyway, I was very proud of my find: a quotation avant la lettre. Nice, isn't it? ;D ;)

Oh yes, it is highly interesting. Men of letters can easily deal in concepts that will stun men of science into submission. :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03 49 Quartet in D for Strings Op 50 #6 1st mvmt - Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on July 24, 2011, 02:41:17 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on July 24, 2011, 01:00:24 PM
Yes, but since time is directional (and one-way), Beethoven would be quoting Haydn rather than the other way around. I am sure that is what Herman is getting at. And rightly so, of course. Haydn is therefore stating a theme which would later be used by Beethoven etc... :)

That simple little motif? I would say independent creation, it's not so complex that someone else wouldn't come up with it. In both cases it's what the composer does with the theme and not the theme itself anyway.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 24, 2011, 04:14:07 PM

Quote from: DavidW on July 24, 2011, 02:41:17 PM
That simple little motif? I would say independent creation, it's not so complex that someone else wouldn't come up with it. In both cases it's what the composer does with the theme and not the theme itself anyway.

Very likely that you are correct. Although not nearly so likely as in Beethoven's use of the opening theme from Bastien & Bastienne for the opening theme of Eroica! The possibility of his having ever heard that little oratorio (K 50) is remote in the extreme. However, the possibility of his having heard Haydn's Op 50 is almost a certitude, so the argument can't be nearly as strong.

That was not the point, however, but rather it was whether Toñio's use of the phrase "Haydn quoted Beethoven" was logically accurate. Since I will happily concede Haydn's preeminence in musical genius, I won't argue with Toñio about it. Herman would, though... :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Susanne Heinrich - Abel WKO 154 Piece for Solo Viola da Gamba - Tempo di minuetto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on July 24, 2011, 06:30:42 PM

I would agree with David, in that it's a rather simple motiv, there are probably tons of composers we do not know of (well, maybe Gurb would) who "use" little percussive motivs like this. It's useful to remember who came up with this "Haydn quotes Beethoven" notion. The less you know, the more likely it is you see all kinds of correspondences between disparate works of art. A student who hardly ever reads fiction will see gigantic similarities between the two books he's assigned to read.

Also, it's a variation on the regressive idea that all music leads to Beethoven, whereas by now we know that in many ways Haydn was the greater composer.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on July 26, 2011, 09:26:34 AM

Quote from: Herman on July 24, 2011, 06:30:42 PM
It's useful to remember who came up with this "Haydn quotes Beethoven" notion.

Who?,.. Meeeee??? ;D

What I MEANT to say was that that IS the 'little motif',... it IS the 'little motif',... soooo, how is it such a 'conspiracy theory' that LvB heard this motif, it got stuck in his head like a bad TV commercial, and, poof!, out it comes in the Fifth. I DIDN'T say 'H quotes B',... I meant to say 'LvB "pre-sighting"',... and, it IS,... yea, no,... as far as I'm concerned, this IS the little motif, this IS where it originated,... and I'll even ASSUME that LvB KNEW (or, it was quickly pointed out to him) where he got the idea for the motif. I gotta believe that smart people back then picked up on this.

Also, the 'other' 'LvB Moment', 54/2, the trio of the Scherzo, can be found in LvB's Op.18/6, I believe,... it's that 'Melancolia' theme, is it not? (or, similar?) I also found this theme in an MJ Kraus SQ.

I thought we had already settled this Op.50/4 thing when I first got that Nomos set in 2009?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 30, 2011, 09:49:15 AM

I've kind of missed this thread. Anyone been listening to any new recordings lately? :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Armenian Philharmonic Orchestra / Loris Tjeknavorian - Khachaturian Suite from 'Spartacus' pt 2 - Scene and Dance with Crotalums

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on July 31, 2011, 03:21:47 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on July 30, 2011, 09:49:15 AM
I've kind of missed this thread. Anyone been listening to any new recordings lately? :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Armenian Philharmonic Orchestra / Loris Tjeknavorian - Khachaturian Suite from 'Spartacus' pt 2 - Scene and Dance with Crotalums

This fun lively performace of the surprise symphony on spotify, but ultimately a bit to elegant and polished for my tastes in Haydn

(http://127.0.0.1:9000/spotifyimage/spotify:image:bf7ee22b03faffec7082138a60166e0f71438aee/cover.jpg)

and a wonderful 48 from Scherchen which I'd never heard before -- it's not on DG biut in the set of Ultraphon recordings publisged by Tahra

(http://127.0.0.1:9000/music/d8095c68/cover_150x150_o)

I also dug out the 91 from Jacobs a few weeks ago -- this is one of my favourite Haydn symphony records, because if the comedic style

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51qMID%2Bd4FL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

ANd finally I listened to Klemperer's 102 last month and was gobsmacked by how wonderful it is. Noble. I listened to Scherchen and Orpheus too in 102 and thought Klemperer was by far the most successful.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 31, 2011, 04:09:15 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on July 31, 2011, 03:21:47 AM
This fun lively performace of the surprise symphony on spotify, but ultimately a bit to elegant and polished for my tastes in Haydn

(http://127.0.0.1:9000/spotifyimage/spotify:image:bf7ee22b03faffec7082138a60166e0f71438aee/cover.jpg)

Pity the picture can't be seen. :-\ Is it the one by Minkowski et al? That is one of the more amusing versions to come along in a while. :)

Quoteand a wonderful 48 from Scherchen which I'd never heard before -- it's not on DG but in the set of Ultraphon recordings published by Tahra (http://127.0.0.1:9000/music/d8095c68/cover_150x150_o)

I've never heard Scherchen doing Haydn, but from what I know about his style, my guess would be that he sounds very progressive and modern, even today. I really like that symphony in any case, it is a perfect example of the "Viennese C major", where typcally Viennese composers used C major for big works, either majestic or simply grand. Another example is Mozart's use of it in the "Jupiter Symphony".

QuoteI also dug out the 91 from Jacobs a few weeks ago -- this is one of my favourite Haydn symphony records, because if the comedic style

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51qMID%2Bd4FL._SL500_AA300_.jpg

Also one of mine. A great 91 and an equally good 92, another of my favorites. And to think I bought that disk originally for the very rare recording of the Scena di Berenice! Win-win-win for me! :)

QuoteAnd finally I listened to Klemperer's 102 last month and was gobsmacked by how wonderful it is. Noble. I listened to Scherchen and Orpheus too in 102 and thought Klemperer was by far the most successful.

Well, despite that I am no fan of older performance styles, I have to say that Klemp's style would suit itself well to #102. And maybe 104 too. But my taste runs towards the smaller ensembles with a light footprint, as it were. Hard to beat La Petite Bande in those works. But there you are, that's why there are so many recordings; ultimately we will each be able to have our own favorite. :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Concerto Copenhagen / Mortensen Brautigam - Hob 18:11 Concerto in D for Keyboard and Orchestra 1st mvmt - Vivace

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on July 31, 2011, 11:01:43 PM

No not Minkowski. Gaia Scienza play a reduction of the surprise symphony for piano quartet made by someone called Lachnith in 1793

I think you're missing something interesting in the reception history of these symphonies if you don't know Scherchen's Haydn. Klemperer's 102 is lithe and transparent. All these things are spotifyable I think. There are lots of good 94s (Have you heard Harnoncourt's one with CMW on DVD/ Or Rosbaud's). Good 91s are a bit harder to find :)

I like those bufffo-style symphonies. 80 is another favourite of mine. Have you heard this one from Nicholas Kraemer and the BBC Philharmonic?

http://thumbs3.ebaystatic.com/m/mpHq3wJhlukPcuPW-XENNXA/140.jpg

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on August 13, 2011, 03:32:43 PM

Enjoying the Van Swieten Trio set of the, well, piano trios . . . it's all delightfully wrought music, but . . . by and large, it's sounding like duo music, the cello and piano essentially doing a quasi-continuo act.

Still, I'm just on disc 2 yet, so . . . we shall see.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 13, 2011, 04:01:32 PM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 13, 2011, 03:32:43 PM
Enjoying the Van Swieten Trio set of the, well, piano trios . . . it's all delightfully wrought music, but . . . by and large, it's sounding like duo music, the cello and piano essentially doing a quasi-continuo act.

Still, I'm just on disc 2 yet, so . . . we shall see.

Can't remember if that set is chronological or not, Karl, but if so, that would be typical. He gets less so as time goes on. There is a long-standing canard that his strings double the hands of the piano note for note, but an analysis of his trios compared to Mozart's or even Beethoven's shows that to be mathematically untrue. I was pleased to read that. :) The trios are among my very favorite of his works.

8)

----------------
Now playing:
New Dusseldorf Hofmusik / Utiger Christine Schornsheim - Hob 18 01 Concerto in C for Organ 2nd mvmt - Largo

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on August 13, 2011, 07:49:30 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 13, 2011, 04:01:32 PM
The trios are among my very favorite of his works.

I think I would rank 'em from awesome to suckage as (and yeah I've color coded them by tier)

1. String Quartets
2. Masses, The Creation, The Seasons
3. Symphonies
4. Piano Sonatas and Variations
5. Piano Trios
6. Concertos
7. Baryton chamber works, well heck all other chamber works
8. Songs
9. Operas

Quick everyone rank your favorite genres of Haydn! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on August 13, 2011, 07:54:20 PM

I should say before I piss anyone off that I don't literally mean suckage, Haydn is my favorite composer and even those red tier works I enjoy listening to.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on August 13, 2011, 08:04:50 PM

Quote from: DavidW on August 13, 2011, 07:49:30 PM
I think I would rank 'em from awesome to suckage as (and yeah I've color coded them by tier)

1. String Quartets
2. Masses, The Creation, The Seasons
3. Symphonies
4. Piano Sonatas and Variations
5. Piano Trios
6. Concertos
7. Baryton chamber works, well heck all other chamber works
8. Songs
9. Operas

Quick everyone rank your favorite genres of Haydn! :)

Okay, I'll bite. I'll divide it into three groups: Humongous, Huge and Ho hum Hadyn.
Humongous
1. String Quartets
2. Oratorios (Creation, Seasons)
3. Piano Trios
4. Later Symphonies
Huge:
5. Concertos
6. Solo Piano Works
7. Middle Period Symphonies
Ho hum
Everything else

I would have to scatter the masses among all three categories, although the division would not fit comfortably into a chronological sequence.

Ho Hum isn't really negative: most composers would give their writing arm for the sake of composing something as good as most of Papa's "ho hum" works. They're just ho hum compared to the rest of his output.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on August 14, 2011, 04:00:19 AM

Quote from: DavidW on August 13, 2011, 07:49:30 PM
I think I would rank 'em from awesome to suckage as (and yeah I've color coded them by tier)

1. String Quartets
2. Masses, The Creation, The Seasons
3. Symphonies
4. Piano Sonatas and Variations
5. Piano Trios
6. Concertos
7. Baryton chamber works, well heck all other chamber works
8. Songs
9. Operas

Quick everyone rank your favorite genres of Haydn! :)

I find that I listen, almost exclusively, to the string quartets, symphonies and piano trios. So those are my preferred works.

I don't know the operas or masses; the Baryton trios and songs are in my collection, but don't get played nearly as much as the three I mentioned. The keyboard sonatas don't get played much either since I find these the least impressive group of works by Haydn. If I want solo piano it will be Beethoven or Mozart or Schubert before Haydn. Having said that I still have three complete sets and several other incomplete recordings - I do listen to them, just not as much as the other works. I hardly ever listen to the keyboard concertos, actually, not the other concertos either.

Still, Haydn probably claims the majority of my classical listening time.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on August 14, 2011, 06:42:17 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 13, 2011, 04:01:32 PM
Can't remember if that set is chronological or not, Karl, but if so, that would be typical. He gets less so as time goes on. There is a long-standing canard that his strings double the hands of the piano note for note, but an analysis of his trios compared to Mozart's or even Beethoven's shows that to be mathematically untrue. I was pleased to read that. :) The trios are among my very favorite of his works.

8)

Oh, they're varry nice, Gurn: charming music, excellent composition. 'Tis just the performer (or, performer-composer) in me, thinking, "If I wuz the cellist, wouldn't I be thinking, 'Why am I here?'" . . .

; )

But I was sure, too, of what you've mentioned: that Papa's use of the medium evolved as his craft waxed. Gotta load these puppies onto the Archos . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on August 14, 2011, 06:43:49 AM

You rate the Masses so high, Davey? I visited them on a time, but they dinna seem to invite me back . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on August 14, 2011, 07:41:30 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 14, 2011, 06:43:49 AM
You rate the Masses so high, Davey? I visited them on a time, but they dinna seem to invite me back . . . .

I do rate them that highly, but his oratorios are absolute zenith. In fact I would say that the Creation and the Seasons are the finest classical era works ever written. They are for classicism what Bach's Mass in B Minor is for the baroque era. 0:)

Jeff your list is a good un... too bad you have mixed feelings about the masses though.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 14, 2011, 07:48:16 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 14, 2011, 06:42:17 AM
Oh, they're varry nice, Gurn: charming music, excellent composition. 'Tis just the performer (or, performer-composer) in me, thinking, "If I wuz the cellist, wouldn't I be thinking, 'Why am I here?'" . . .

; )

But I was sure, too, of what you've mentioned: that Papa's use of the medium evolved as his craft waxed. Gotta load these puppies onto the Archos . . . .

Actually, I have read quotes from cellists to the effect of enjoying Haydn's trios more than Mozart's, for example. Just when you think it is nothing but a figured continuo there will be a neat little obliggato lick that makes it worthwhile. :)

Yes, well he wrote his first ones in 1757, and his last in 1795, so there was plenty of room for growth in there. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
London SO \ Haitink - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 2nd mvmt - Scherzo: Molto vivace

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on August 14, 2011, 08:51:35 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 14, 2011, 06:42:17 AM
Oh, they're varry nice, Gurn: charming music, excellent composition. 'Tis just the twentieth-century performer (or, performer-composer) in me, thinking, "If I wuz the cellist, wouldn't I be thinking, 'Why am I here?'" . . .

; )

Edited. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on August 14, 2011, 08:56:07 AM

I think the cellist should feel privileged, I don't think they even had much of a role in chamber music before Haydn. Though I think the real breakout works for them might be Beethoven's cello sonatas. I'm sure the classical era experts will correct me though. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 14, 2011, 09:00:06 AM

Quote from: DavidW on August 14, 2011, 08:56:07 AM
I think the cellist should feel privileged, I don't think they even had much of a role in chamber music before Haydn. Though I think the real breakout works for them might be Beethoven's cello sonatas. I'm sure the classical era experts will correct me though. :)

Boccherini. Still the Mountain for the cellist. :) Beethoven was good to cellists too. Haydn brought them out of the dark of continuo though. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Christine Schornsheim - Hob 16 G1 Sonata #4 in G for Keyboard 3rd mvmt - Finale: Presto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on August 14, 2011, 09:10:53 AM

Technically you must be right. The chamber still feels quite dim at the moment, though : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on August 14, 2011, 09:30:30 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 14, 2011, 09:00:06 AM
Boccherini. Still the Mountain for the cellist. :) Beethoven was good to cellists too. Haydn brought them out of the dark of continuo though. :)

8)

Oh yeah that guy! :D I suppose with cello concertos, quintets and an octet he must like the instrument. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 14, 2011, 09:40:39 AM

Quote from: DavidW on August 14, 2011, 09:30:30 AM
Oh yeah that guy! :D I suppose with cello concertos, quintets and an octet he must like the instrument. ;D

It is said by one of his contemporaries that he could play the solo part any violin concerto on the cello at pitch! So yeah, I guess he liked the instrument. :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Das Wiener Philharmonia Trio - Hob 05 10 Divertimento á tre in F for 2 Violins & Bass 1st mvmt - Adagio cantabile

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 14, 2011, 10:15:00 AM

I won't make a complete list only because I am still going through Mr. Haydn's SQ, Masses and Piano Sonatas, but I would put his symphonies from #22 to #53 on the top of the list. Not sure if that's entirely considered his Sturm und Drang period, but that specific area of symphonies is what initially grabbed my attention of Haydn's genius.

The Seven Last Words for SQ was my first Haydn love. ;) but now second to his symphonies.

The Creation is phenomenal.

I frequent his concertos often, mainly his Cello Concerto No. 1 in C, and Organ Concerto in C.

So far I've listened to SQ Op. 20, 33, 76 & 77 and have found myself smiling through all of them, they will move up the list soon, I can tell.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on August 15, 2011, 03:54:56 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 14, 2011, 09:40:39 AM
It is said by one of his contemporaries that he could play the solo part any violin concerto on the cello at pitch!

Impressive enough, even as we observe that violin concerti in his day were not what they are now : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on August 15, 2011, 06:37:33 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 15, 2011, 03:54:56 AM
Impressive enough, even as we observe that violin concerti in his day were not what they are now : )

Yeah they had a tonal center back then. ;) ;D :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 16, 2011, 05:43:14 PM

Quote from: Mirror Image on August 16, 2011, 05:36:37 PM
Awesome, Gurn. It's always great to see someone passionate about a composer. You should see my Sibelius collection. :) Today, I bought 18th cycle of Sibelius's symphonies.

Thanks.

Damn, that's a bunch! Well, so far I have been going for breadth, in the sense that I have every piece of music that Haydn wrote which has been recorded. As far as depth goes, I have probably more symphony versions than anything else. Primarily that's because (as you know) I am a period instrument fan and some parts of Haydn's oeuvre are blessed with lots of versions. Like the Stürm und Dräng symphonies. But unlike composers like Sibelius (or Beethoven, Brahms, etc), it is pretty difficult to put together cycles of Haydn! I try though. :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss - Hob 02 38 Scherzando #6 in A 4th mvmt - Finale: Presto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mirror Image on August 16, 2011, 06:13:09 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 16, 2011, 05:43:14 PM
Thanks.

Damn, that's a bunch! Well, so far I have been going for breadth, in the sense that I have every piece of music that Haydn wrote which has been recorded. As far as depth goes, I have probably more symphony versions than anything else. Primarily that's because (as you know) I am a period instrument fan and some parts of Haydn's oeuvre are blessed with lots of versions. Like the Stürm und Dräng symphonies. But unlike composers like Sibelius (or Beethoven, Brahms, etc), it is pretty difficult to put together cycles of Haydn! I try though. :D

8)

Do you own Dorati's Haydn symphony set? This is the only complete symphony set I own of Haydn's symphonies. I've got a few sets of the London and Paris symphonies (Bernstein, Karajan, Abbado). I'd like to get Harnoncourt's Haydn recordings at some point. Do you own these, Gurn?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2011, 04:16:29 AM

Quote from: Mirror Image on August 16, 2011, 06:13:09 PM
Do you own Dorati's Haydn symphony set? This is the only complete symphony set I own of Haydn's symphonies. I've got a few sets of the London and Paris symphonies (Bernstein, Karajan, Abbado). I'd like to get Harnoncourt's Haydn recordings at some point. Do you own these, Gurn?

I have a few stray disks of Dorati, but not the set. I don't have a big taste for prehistoric recordings like lots of people do. I like his Paris set though. Of the others, I don't have any Abbado, and like Dorati, a few Bernstein (Vienna) and Karajan. If one wants to go the modern instrument route, there is a lot more out there, some of it very good, just not to my taste.

I do have the Harnoncourt symphonies and strongly recommend them (I'm talking about Concentus Musicus Wien here, not Concertgebouw, which are doubtless good, but see above).

As you can see, even restricting my collecting to only PI versions, I still have a real hard time finding a place for everything. I am afraid that if I were to expand beyond that, I would have to sell all my Koechlin recordings to make room. :o :o :-\

:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on August 17, 2011, 04:23:25 AM

I so much disliked HvK's Mozart symphonies, I don't think I should much care for him in Haydn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2011, 04:25:22 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 17, 2011, 04:23:25 AM
I so much disliked HvK's Mozart symphonies, I don't think I should much care for him in Haydn.

If you were a bigger HvK fan than a Haydn fan, you would likely eat them up. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on August 17, 2011, 04:35:44 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 17, 2011, 04:23:25 AM
I so much disliked HvK's Mozart symphonies, I don't think I should much care for him in Haydn.

Yes Karajan is lousy. Bernstein is great though, his Paris symphonies are on par with Harnoncourt.

Edit: I speak of the NYPO recordings not the VPO.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DieNacht on August 17, 2011, 05:19:04 AM

Concerning Karajan/Mozart there is a lot of difference between the relatively late DG set and the earlier EMI. I found the EMI splendid, if rather Beethovenian, whereas the DG was uninteresting IMO ... He made an even earlier Mozart 40 on decca also.

Decided that my collection shouldn´t dominate the apartment too much and have split it up in many smaller sections, leaving a lot of space for furniture and books etc. in between in the various rooms. Unfortunately this means that it is not possible to place them alphabetically, but I keep a written register and am usually able to find the items - LPs constituting the major part as regards space.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Roberto on August 17, 2011, 07:04:52 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 17, 2011, 04:16:29 AM
I have a few stray disks of Dorati, but not the set. I don't have a big taste for prehistoric recordings like lots of people do. I like his Paris set though. Of the others, I don't have any Abbado, and like Dorati, a few Bernstein (Vienna) and Karajan. If one wants to go the modern instrument route, there is a lot more out there, some of it very good, just not to my taste.

And what about Ádám Fischer's complete box? Months ago I added it to my wish list. (I considered Dorati too but I prefer HIP recording also. And after read some opinions about both I decided to add the Fischer's set.) But I've read an interview with Fischer and he said that he would like to throw out his first recordings with that orchestra. Because when he was younger he don't dare realize his own ideas. But apart from it this maybe a good complete set.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on August 17, 2011, 07:11:28 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 17, 2011, 04:23:25 AM
I so much disliked HvK's Mozart symphonies, I don't think I should much care for him in Haydn.

Just yesterday I saw someone advertising a set of late Mozart symphonies conducted by von Karajan. Uncomplimentary thoughts came to mind. I wouldn't order a soufflé from a prison cafeteria cook.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DieNacht on August 17, 2011, 07:19:11 AM

Fischer/Haydn:
I find it an often very good and agreable set. As far as I remember, the mentioned first recordings were of the late symphonies in particular, and most people will have alternative versions anyway. The orchestra is not of the biggest size and I don´t have the Dorati, but the playing is quite varied, often lively and charming, but rarely impressively romantic. I mainly have Scherchen, Davis and Marriner alternative recordings and Fischer is a great contrast to them; it varies exactly what recording of the individual works that I prefer, of course. He can make some of the earliest symphonies into real gems. The Dorati has a duller sound, from what I hear/have heard, of course.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on August 17, 2011, 07:25:38 AM

Quote from: Roberto on August 17, 2011, 07:04:52 AM
And what about Ádám Fischer's complete box? Months ago I added it to my wish list. (I considered Dorati too but I prefer HIP recording also. And after read some opinions about both I decided to add the Fischer's set.) But I've read an interview with Fischer and he said that he would like to throw out his first recordings with that orchestra. Because when he was younger he don't dare realize his own ideas. But apart from it this maybe a good complete set.

It's on Gurn's top shelf... it's part of the Haydn edition. :) I like it, but I have not heard the Dorati or the Davies.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Vesteralen on August 17, 2011, 07:34:12 AM

Would love to join a Haydn discussion like this, but I really don't have much knowledge of anything but the symphonies. I'm currently on my second time through the complete set (Fischer/Nimbus) and am on 88-90 (listen to one disc just about every day for a week).

I have almost all the string quartets on vinyl (Aeolian/LST), but I have never listened to them yet. I got them when the main branch of the library in my hometown was throwing out most of their vinyls several years ago. Since it looked like most of them had been seldom, if ever, played, I figured the price ($0) was right.

But, since comments on the symphonies seem to be pretty much verboten here, I'll just say "adieu" to this thread till much later. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on August 17, 2011, 07:48:23 AM

Quote from: Vesteralen on August 17, 2011, 07:34:12 AM
But, since comments on the symphonies seem to be pretty much verboten here, I'll just say "adieu" to this thread till much later. :)

Post here Vesteralen! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on August 17, 2011, 07:49:21 AM

Quote from: Vesteralen on August 17, 2011, 07:34:12 AM
But, since comments on the symphonies seem to be pretty much verboten here, I'll just say "adieu" to this thread till much later. :)

All Haydn discussion is welcome here! :) But I have resurrected the symphony thread for you.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11942.0.html (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11942.0.html)

Enjoy. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 17, 2011, 07:49:48 AM

Quote from: Vesteralen on August 17, 2011, 07:34:12 AM
Would love to join a Haydn discussion like this, but I really don't have much knowledge of anything but the symphonies. I'm currently on my second time through the complete set (Fischer/Nimbus) and am on 88-90 (listen to one disc just about every day for a week).

I have almost all the string quartets on vinyl (Aeolian/LST), but I have never listened to them yet. I got them when the main branch of the library in my hometown was throwing out most of their vinyls several years ago. Since it looked like most of them had been seldom, if ever, played, I figured the price ($0) was right.

But, since comments on the symphonies seem to be pretty much verboten here, I'll just say "adieu" to this thread till much later. :)

Nah - stay awhile. They let anyone into this thread! :) I mean, even a romantic like me!!

Seriously, would love to hear some of your thoughts as you listen to the Fischer (which I still haven't finished yet). There are always connections one misses and other associations that help understand what one is hearing. And if you state you really like certain symphonies, I can almost guarantee that someone will provide another Haydn piece that you will like (knowing you liked a certain number symphony), helping lead your exploration of the composer.

And (wink, wink), we all know which room in the Haus is most interestng anyway (symphonies, cough, cough). :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on August 17, 2011, 07:54:07 AM

Since I already have and love these two sets of Kuijken

[asin]B000031WJC[/asin]
[asin]B00004TQQS[/asin]

I've decided to finally pull the trigger on this before it goes oop, because you know how PI classical era sets like to do that. ::)

I can't wait! ;D

[asin]B00000J2PW[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2011, 07:54:36 AM

Quote from: Vesteralen on August 17, 2011, 07:34:12 AM
Would love to join a Haydn discussion like this, but I really don't have much knowledge of anything but the symphonies. I'm currently on my second time through the complete set (Fischer/Nimbus) and am on 88-90 (listen to one disc just about every day for a week).

I have almost all the string quartets on vinyl (Aeolian/LST), but I have never listened to them yet. I got them when the main branch of the library in my hometown was throwing out most of their vinyls several years ago. Since it looked like most of them had been seldom, if ever, played, I figured the price ($0) was right.

But, since comments on the symphonies seem to be pretty much verboten here, I'll just say "adieu" to this thread till much later. :)

Nothing is verboten here, actually. Only that the symphonies have their own thread so not much ends up here. I would encourage you strongly to listen to those string quartet recordings though. If you aren't yet familiar with Haydn's string quartets, you are missing a treat. I only wish I could start all over again just to experience the delight one more time. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on August 17, 2011, 07:57:26 AM

Quote from: DavidW on August 13, 2011, 07:49:30 PM
I think I would rank 'em from awesome to suckage as (and yeah I've color coded them by tier)

1. String Quartets
2. Masses, The Creation, The Seasons
3. Symphonies
4. Piano Sonatas and Variations
5. Piano Trios
6. Concertos
7. Baryton chamber works, well heck all other chamber works
8. Songs
9. Operas

Quick everyone rank your favorite genres of Haydn! :)

uh,... Haydn wrote more than String Quartets? ??? Preposterous!! >:D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2011, 07:58:50 AM

Quote from: DavidW on August 17, 2011, 07:54:07 AM

I've decided to finally pull the trigger on this before it goes oop, because you know how PI classical era sets like to do that. ::)

I can't wait! ;D

[asin]B00000J2PW[/asin]

That's a good move, David. I really like that recording. The only hole that would leave in their Haydn symphonies recordings for you would be the London's. If you are really patient (like yours truly) you can find the 5 individual disks on DHM. Or, you can get it as a 4 disk set from Japan, probably a bit more expensive. Either way it is a model of small orchestra Haydn, so different than most and still my favorites! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2011, 08:01:14 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on August 17, 2011, 07:57:26 AM
uh,... Haydn wrote more than String Quartets? ??? Preposterous!! >:D

:D

Yeah, he wrote this stuff too;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/MyHaydn.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on August 17, 2011, 08:03:59 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 17, 2011, 07:58:50 AM
That's a good move, David. I really like that recording. The only hole that would leave in their Haydn symphonies recordings for you would be the London's. If you are really patient (like yours truly) you can find the 5 individual disks on DHM. Or, you can get it as a 4 disk set from Japan, probably a bit more expensive. Either way it is a model of small orchestra Haydn, so different than most and still my favorites! :)

8)

3 of those cds are on itunes. But there is also Minkowski, so I guess the question is:

Which choice?
(a) Kuijken
(b) Minkowski
(c) both!
(d) neither!

;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 17, 2011, 08:06:20 AM

Quote from: DavidW on August 17, 2011, 07:54:07 AM
Since I already have and love these two sets of Kuijken

[asin]B000031WJC[/asin]
[asin]B00004TQQS[/asin]

I've decided to finally pull the trigger on this before it goes oop, because you know how PI classical era sets like to do that. ::)

I can't wait! ;D

[asin]B00000J2PW[/asin]

Agreed, all three are great!

I've been diving into some of the Naxos recordings, some are ultra cheap so it's hard to pass on. Symphony no.31 "Hornsignal" has long been one of my favorite, possibly the Harnoncourt version my top choice, one of the symphonies I've listened to the most (can you guess an instrument I used to play? :)), this performance by Budapest Nicolaus Esterhazy Sinfonia/Bela Drahos is quite lovely. The horns are a bit more subdued and blend in more with the rest of the ensemble than in Harnoncourt's, or even Mackarres's recordings. Not that it's better or worse.

[asin]B0000542I7[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2011, 08:07:59 AM

Quote from: Roberto on August 17, 2011, 07:04:52 AM
And what about Ádám Fischer's complete box? Months ago I added it to my wish list. (I considered Dorati too but I prefer HIP recording also. And after read some opinions about both I decided to add the Fischer's set.) But I've read an interview with Fischer and he said that he would like to throw out his first recordings with that orchestra. Because when he was younger he don't dare realize his own ideas. But apart from it this maybe a good complete set.

Oh yes, certainly I have Fischer. It is the best complete cycle on modern instruments, and a fine addition to my collection. I like that he realizes that his earlier efforts (which are actually the later symphonies) were not to the same standard as the later ones. Still, they are better than many, as I think he was already thinking in terms of emulating the PI people with swifter tempi and better articulation. Actually, this discussion started 4 pages back when I posted a picture of my Haydn shelf in the organize thread. The Big Box is on the top shelf... 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 17, 2011, 08:08:21 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 17, 2011, 08:01:14 AM
:D

Yeah, he wrote this stuff too;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/MyHaydn.jpg)

8)

Don't go anywhere, Im headed over with 200 blank CDs!! :o

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on August 17, 2011, 08:09:51 AM

Gurn imagine what shape you would be in if you benchpressed your Haydn shelf everyday! ;D

Either totally ripped or in a wheelchair... one of the two. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on August 17, 2011, 08:10:14 AM

I had no idea this thread even existed!

What a treasure trove of information on my second favorite composer (... er, if you're wondering, Wolfie is #1 in my book). But back to this thread - YES! Kuikjen: I didn't know he had recorded more of these works, so I will have to follow suit, DavidW.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2011, 08:10:27 AM

Quote from: DavidW on August 17, 2011, 08:03:59 AM
3 of those cds are on itunes. But there is also Minkowski, so I guess the question is:

Which choice?
(a) Kuijken
(b) Minkowski
(c) both!
(d) neither!

;D

Obviously both. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on August 17, 2011, 08:11:54 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 17, 2011, 08:07:59 AM
as I think he was already thinking in terms of emulating the PI people with swifter tempi and better articulation.

That is why it's funny that he puts down HIP in the liner notes since he owes them just a little bit. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2011, 08:12:05 AM

Quote from: Leon on August 17, 2011, 08:10:14 AM
I had no idea this thread even existed!

What a treasure trove of information on my second favorite composer (... er, if you're wondering, Wolfie is #1 in my book). But back to this thread - YES! Kuikjen: I didn't know he had recorded more of these works, so I will have to follow suit, DavidW.

:)

Welcome in then, Leon. This was the very first thread I started when we migrated the forum several years ago. Dedicated to my #1 favorite composer. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2011, 08:13:27 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 17, 2011, 08:08:21 AM
Don't go anywhere, Im headed over with 200 blank CDs!! :o

Well, that would take care of the top shelf. :D C'mon over. Fair warning, Texas is hot right now... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on August 17, 2011, 08:14:58 AM

There's got to be a Koechlin disc or two squirreled away in there . . . .

Thread Duty:

Not sure that this box of piano trios (lovely as it is) is actually chronological. How should I find out, O Gurn? IIRC, the Hoboken volumes are by genre. Enlightenment, please, O Gurn of the Enlightenment!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2011, 08:15:40 AM

Quote from: DavidW on August 17, 2011, 08:09:51 AM
Gurn imagine what shape you would be in if you benchpressed your Haydn shelf everyday! ;D

Either totally ripped or in a wheelchair... one of the two. ;D

Afraid the wheelchair is the more likely. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on August 17, 2011, 08:15:40 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 17, 2011, 08:12:05 AM
Welcome in then, Leon. This was the very first thread I started when we migrated the forum several years ago. Dedicated to my #1 favorite composer. :D

8)

Ah, but it is nice to see that, at least currently, you are concentrating on Mozart.

;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on August 17, 2011, 08:15:40 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 17, 2011, 08:13:27 AM
C'mon over. Fair warning, Texas is hot right now... :)

8)

No kidding, I found a pic of your backyard online:

(http://www.exminister.org/hellfire-thumb.jpg)

;D ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Vesteralen on August 17, 2011, 08:15:56 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 17, 2011, 07:54:36 AM
Nothing is verboten here, actually. Only that the symphonies have their own thread so not much ends up here. I would encourage you strongly to listen to those string quartet recordings though. If you aren't yet familiar with Haydn's string quartets, you are missing a treat. I only wish I could start all over again just to experience the delight one more time. :)

8)

Thanks for the information. And, I do intend to expand my Hadyn experience soon. I've been eyeing that "Haydn Edition" boxed set I see on your shelves for sometime now, since I've really been impressed with the Mozart Edition I got a couple of months ago.

Meantime, I'll look for the thread on the symphonies.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on August 17, 2011, 08:16:36 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 17, 2011, 08:12:05 AM
Welcome in then, Leon. This was the very first thread I started when we migrated the forum several years ago. Dedicated to my #1 favorite composer. :D

8)

Aye, Papa is Gurn's bag!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2011, 08:19:10 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 17, 2011, 08:14:58 AM
There's got to be a Koechlin disc or two squirreled away in there . . . .

Thread Duty:

Not sure that this box of piano trios (lovely as it is) is actually chronological. How should I find out, O Gurn? IIRC, the Hoboken volumes are by genre. Enlightenment, please, O Gurn of the Enlightenment!

Actual chronology (latest idea, anyway). I'll come back later and clean up the columns a little, just had time to do the first few rows, but you get the point.

Year   Landon Number   Hob 15 #
1757     1     37
1757     2     C1
1757     3
1757     4     39
1757     5     1
1757   6   40
1757   7   41
1757   10   35
1757   11   34
1760   12   36
1757   13   38
1760   14   f1
   15   deest
1767   16
1772   17   2
1784   18   5
1784   19   6
1785   20   7
1785   21   8
1785   22   9
1785   23   10
1788   24   11
1788   25   12
1789   26   13
1789   27   14
1790   28   16
1790   29   15
1790   30   17
1794   31   32
1793   32   18
1793   33   19
1793   34   20
1794   35   21
1794   36   22
1794   37   23
1795   38   24
1795   39   25
1795   40   26
1795   41   31
1796   42   30
1796   43   27
1796   44   28
1796   45   29

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 17, 2011, 08:19:54 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 17, 2011, 08:13:27 AM
Well, that would take care of the top shelf. :D C'mon over. Fair warning, Texas is hot right now... :)

8)

Ah yes, born and raised there, just moved away 5 years ago. Father still lives in Plano and he's been updating me on the heat.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on August 17, 2011, 08:20:10 AM

Quote from: Leon on August 17, 2011, 08:15:40 AM
Ah, but it is nice to see that, at least currently, you are concentrating on Mozart.

;)

Gurn's mind might be concentrating on Mozart, but his pocketbook is concentrating on Haydn! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2011, 08:21:02 AM

Quote from: DavidW on August 17, 2011, 08:15:40 AM
No kidding, I found a pic of your backyard online:

(http://www.exminister.org/hellfire-thumb.jpg)

;D ;D

That's the front yard, actually, the back actually melted and flowed away... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on August 17, 2011, 08:21:51 AM

Quote from: Leon on August 17, 2011, 08:10:14 AM
But back to this thread - YES! Kuikjen: I didn't know he had recorded more of these works, so I will have to follow suit, DavidW.

:)

Which ones of his do you already have?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2011, 08:22:14 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 17, 2011, 08:19:54 AM
Ah yes, born and raised there, just moved away 5 years ago. Father still lives in Plano and he's been updating me on the heat.

Ah, Plano. Well, it's a dry heat.... :D

Here in the Piney Woods, it is that strange combination of bone-dry yet humid... :(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on August 17, 2011, 08:24:21 AM

Quote from: DavidW on August 17, 2011, 08:21:51 AM
Which ones of his do you already have?

Just the Paris, I'm afraid, I am woefully behind.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Roberto on August 17, 2011, 08:40:59 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 17, 2011, 08:07:59 AMActually, this discussion started 4 pages back when I posted a picture of my Haydn shelf in the organize thread. The Big Box is on the top shelf... 0:)

Wow, your Haydn shelf is impressive. Actually I could put the half of my entire CD collection to that shelf not only one composer. :'(
So I keep Fischer's box on my wish list. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Vesteralen on August 17, 2011, 08:42:53 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on July 31, 2011, 03:21:47 AM
ANd finally I listened to Klemperer's 102 last month and was gobsmacked by how wonderful it is. Noble. I listened to Scherchen and Orpheus too in 102 and thought Klemperer was by far the most successful.

I agree with this. One of the very first LPs I ever had was a going-away present from my parents way back in 1972 - Klemperer's Haydn 100 & 102. They knew I wanted a copy of #102 since I had seen a Bernstein TV show that analysed it. This was the only one they could find. Of course, none of us knew what HIP was back then. But, it doesn't matter in this case. I still have this LP today and it still sounds as good as ever.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2011, 09:59:05 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 17, 2011, 08:19:10 AM
Actual chronology (latest idea, anyway). I'll come back later and clean up the columns a little, just had time to do the first few rows, but you get the point.

Here is an organized copy. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on August 17, 2011, 10:00:11 AM

Thanks!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on August 17, 2011, 10:02:20 AM

Is there a story behind the lack of a Landon no. 8 or 9?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on August 17, 2011, 10:03:36 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 17, 2011, 08:13:27 AM
Well, that would take care of the top shelf. :D C'mon over. Fair warning, Texas is hot right now... :)

8)

Have y'all gotten any rain recently? I spoke with my sister in Flower Mound, and this was a couple of weeks ago, that they had no rain for 40 days and counting, triple digit temperatures and no rain in the forecast. Nashville has been hot but I can't complain when hearing what Texas has been going through.

No wonder Rick Perry wants to get on the road.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on August 17, 2011, 10:07:30 AM

Quote from: Leon on August 17, 2011, 10:03:36 AM
No wonder Rick Perry wants to get on the road.

Nor any wonder he's so full of piss & vinegar.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2011, 10:36:39 AM

Quote from: gn i n n e h lr a k on August 17, 2011, 10:02:20 AM
Is there a story behind the lack of a Landon no. 8 or 9?

I don't know it OTTOMH, but it will be a "later proved to be not by Haydn" sort of thing. Or else they are fragmentary. If that is the case, most books won't list it. When I was listing the complete works, some evenings I felt more ambitious than others and I tracked that stuff down. Apparently on that night, I wasn't.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2011, 10:39:39 AM

Quote from: Leon on August 17, 2011, 10:03:36 AM
Have y'all gotten any rain recently? I spoke with my sister in Flower Mound, and this was a couple of weeks ago, that they had no rain for 40 days and counting, triple digit temperatures and no rain in the forecast. Nashville has been hot but I can't complain when hearing what Texas has been going through.

No wonder Rick Perry wants to get on the road.

:)

In a place that averages 46" of rain per year, we have gotten 15" since January, 2010! It's scary more than anything else, because you never know when some pine knot hillbilly is going to decide that this is a good day to burn his leaves and your house is gone a couple hours later... :-\

Good riddance to bad rubbish. Y'all can keep his sorry ass. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on August 17, 2011, 10:44:26 AM

Looking for the other Kuijiken Haydn that I didn't have besides the ones DavidW posted, there's these too:

[asin]B000001TY3[/asin]

[asin]B000001TXX[/asin]

[asin]B000001TYO[/asin]

[asin]B000001TZ6[/asin]

[asin]B000001TZB[/asin]

And there appears to be a Japanese import that boxes all these up:

[asin]B000EBDCUA[/asin]

But it might have been hard finding some since Amazon had at least one listed as by Hadyn.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on August 17, 2011, 11:24:44 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 17, 2011, 08:01:14 AM
:D

Yeah, he wrote this stuff too;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/MyHaydn.jpg)

8)

Where's the SQs? (unless that's the Nomos: second shelf, all the way to the left?)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on August 17, 2011, 11:25:14 AM

Well, one can't be ambitious all the time, Napoleon . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2011, 11:25:45 AM

Quote from: Leon on August 17, 2011, 10:44:26 AM
Looking for the other Kuijiken Haydn that I didn't have besides the ones DavidW posted, there's these too:

[asin]B000001TY3[/asin]

[asin]B000001TXX[/asin]

[asin]B000001TYO[/asin]

[asin]B000001TZ6[/asin]

[asin]B000001TZB[/asin]

And there appears to be a Japanese import that boxes all these up:

[asin]B000EBDCUA[/asin]

But it might have been hard finding some since Amazon had at least one listed as by Hadyn.

:)

Yes, those are the 5 that I have (I rec'd them to David earlier). It is hit and miss finding them, sometimes there are 3 or 4 to choose from, sometimes 0 to choose from. The alternative, the Japanese set, is nice, it makes 5 into 4. I thought about it but decided I liked the pictures on the singles better... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2011, 11:31:49 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on August 17, 2011, 11:24:44 AM
Where's the SQs? (unless that's the Nomos: second shelf, all the way to the left?)

The middle shelf, about the center, that line of black boxes, is the Festetics. Up at the very top, that pink and the green box, those are the Mosaiques. Due to the flash, you can barely see on the second shelf up, the Kodaly set that was my first, I took them out of the (23) single boxes and put them in those chubby 4 packs to save space. Probably didn't... :) Then there are various single disks scattered around. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2011, 11:33:35 AM

Quote from: gn i n n e h lr a k on August 17, 2011, 11:25:14 AM
Well, one can't be ambitious all the time, Napoleon . . . .

True enough; getting a bit long in the tooth to support undue ambition. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 17, 2011, 11:38:46 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 17, 2011, 11:31:49 AM
The middle shelf, about the center, that line of black boxes, is the Festetics. Up at the very top, that pink and the green box, those are the Mosaiques. Due to the flash, you can barely see on the second shelf up, the Kodaly set that was my first, I took them out of the (23) single boxes and put them in those chubby 4 packs to save space. Probably didn't... :) Then there are various single disks scattered around. :)

... and the complete Buchbergers in the pale blue box.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2011, 11:44:58 AM

Quote from: toñito on August 17, 2011, 11:38:46 AM
... and the complete Buchbergers in the pale blue box.

Damn, forgot those! :-[ Thanks, Toñito, where would I be etc? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on August 17, 2011, 12:37:03 PM

Quote from: toñito on August 17, 2011, 11:38:46 AM
... and the complete Buchbergers in the pale blue box.

I wish! It's incomplete, missing the best ones. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on August 17, 2011, 12:51:05 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 17, 2011, 11:31:49 AM
Then there are various single disks scattered around. :)

8)

Scattered around? :o? Scattered around? :o?

uh... uh... how? how dare?...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 17, 2011, 08:20:32 PM

Quote from: DavidW on August 17, 2011, 12:37:03 PM
I wish! It's incomplete, missing the best ones. :)

I don't know if those are precisely the best, but some quartets are lacking. BTW, when this cycle was originally released I purchased several individual volumes, but when I bought vol. 3 (Op. 77, 103 & Op. 51), I hated so deeply Buchberger's interpretation that I decided not to buy the remaining volumes. But then the big box was released and I even got several quartets duplicated. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 17, 2011, 08:32:50 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 17, 2011, 08:01:14 AM
:D

Yeah, he wrote this stuff too;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/MyHaydn.jpg)

8)

Nice collection. It's fun to try to recognize every disc. BTW, I don't see properly the disc(s) in between the Applausus CD and the Festetics. Are two Denon CDs?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on August 18, 2011, 04:57:51 AM

Quote from: toñito on August 17, 2011, 08:20:32 PM
I don't know if those are precisely the best, but some quartets are lacking. BTW, when this cycle was originally released I purchased several individual volumes, but when I bought vol. 3 (Op. 77, 103 & Op. 51), I hated so deeply Buchberger's interpretation that I decided not to buy the remaining volumes. But then the big box was released and I even got several quartets duplicated. :)

It's missing SQs from Op 50 and 76 which are the best to me. Okay I should say favorite not best.

Anyway, what are your favorite performers for Haydn's SQs Tonito?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 18, 2011, 05:53:32 AM

Quote from: DavidW on August 18, 2011, 04:57:51 AM
It's missing SQs from Op 50 and 76 which are the best to me. Okay I should say favorite not best.

Anyway, what are your favorite performers for Haydn's SQs Tonito?

As a complete cycle (from the Op. 9): the Festetics, hands down.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 18, 2011, 11:30:46 AM

Quote from: toñito on August 17, 2011, 08:32:50 PM
Nice collection. It's fun to try to recognize every disc. BTW, I don't see properly the disc(s) in between the Applausus CD and the Festetics. Are two Denon CDs?

No, the 2 Ricercar disks of the Baryton Octets. I got the singles before that nice double was released... :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Concilium musicum Wien \ Angerer "auf Originalinstrumenten" - Hob 01 008 Symphony in G 2nd mvmt - Andante

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 18, 2011, 11:33:35 AM

Quote from: DavidW on August 18, 2011, 04:57:51 AM
It's missing SQs from Op 50 and 76 which are the best to me. Okay I should say favorite not best.

Anyway, what are your favorite performers for Haydn's SQs Tonito?

Yes, on your first premise, Op 50 is my #1 favorite, Op 76 my #2.

Quote from: toñito on August 18, 2011, 05:53:32 AM
As a complete cycle (from the Op. 9): the Festetics, hands down.

And there you have it, I'm 3 for 3 this afternoon. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Concilium musicum Wien \ Angerer "auf Originalinstrumenten" - Hob 01 008 Symphony in G 2nd mvmt - Andante

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on August 18, 2011, 09:17:51 PM

I've only played Haydn twice in the last 6 months, and both times it was Op.64/1, the one with no formal slow movement: good morning music!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on August 19, 2011, 05:00:45 AM

Do you know the Trumpet Concerto? It's apt to be overplayed on that special sort of classical radio station which thinks its mission is to serve as background in dentists' waiting rooms . . . but is nonetheless a charming, delicious concerto.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on August 19, 2011, 06:30:47 AM

I know the trumpet concerto, it is a nice piece... but blasphemy! I prefer M. Haydn's trumpet concerto.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on August 19, 2011, 06:47:42 AM

(* wringing of hands [my own] *)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2011, 08:17:27 AM

Quote from: DavidW on August 19, 2011, 06:30:47 AM
I know the trumpet concerto, it is a nice piece... but blasphemy! I prefer M. Haydn's trumpet concerto.

Meh...

A nice piece? I was thinking more like totally unique, taking maximum advantage of the potential of an instrument that no one had even heard before, least of all himself. I bet the chap who commissioned it, the inventor of the keyed trumpet, Anton Weidinger, got all that he bargained for and more when he took delivery! In addition to the technical challenges )which still exist for a modern trumpeter!), it is musically on the leading edge of concerto design at the time (1796).

Blasphemer. 0:)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Das Wiener Philharmonia Trio - Hob 05 16 Divertimento á tre in C for 2 Violins & Bass 2nd mvmt - Menuet

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on August 19, 2011, 08:38:21 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 19, 2011, 08:17:27 AM
Meh...

A nice piece? I was thinking more like totally unique, taking maximum advantage of the potential of an instrument that no one had even heard before, least of all himself. I bet the chap who commissioned it, the inventor of the keyed trumpet, Anton Weidinger, got all that he bargained for and more when he took delivery! In addition to the technical challenges )which still exist for a modern trumpeter!), it is musically on the leading edge of concerto design at the time (1796).

Blasphemer. 0:)

8)

It's one of the nominees on the "Favorite (non Keyboard) Concertos" thread even as we speak.

Speaking of blasphemy, Gurn, you'd better not look at the Favorite Symphonies thread too closely.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on August 19, 2011, 08:39:55 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 19, 2011, 08:38:21 AM
It's one of the nominees on the "Favorite (non Keyboard) Concertos" thread even as we speak.

Speaking of blasphemy, Gurn, you'd better not look at the Favorite Symphonies thread too closely.

Oh my, has the Haydn 101 fallen on hard times? I nominated it but have not participated in the thread since.

:(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2011, 08:42:41 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 19, 2011, 08:38:21 AM
It's one of the nominees on the "Favorite (non Keyboard) Concertos" thread even as we speak.

Speaking of blasphemy, Gurn, you'd better not look at the Favorite Symphonies thread too closely.

Well, I haven't done yet, Jeffrey, but may have to troll on by.... There can be only 1! :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Das Wiener Philharmonia Trio - Hob 05 18 Divertimento á tre in Bb for 2 Violins & Bass 3rd mvmt - Finale: Presto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on August 19, 2011, 09:12:48 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 19, 2011, 08:17:27 AM
Meh...

A nice piece? I was thinking more like totally unique, taking maximum advantage of the potential of an instrument that no one had even heard before, least of all himself. I bet the chap who commissioned it, the inventor of the keyed trumpet, Anton Weidinger, got all that he bargained for and more when he took delivery! In addition to the technical challenges )which still exist for a modern trumpeter!), it is musically on the leading edge of concerto design at the time (1796).

Blasphemer. 0:)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Das Wiener Philharmonia Trio - Hob 05 16 Divertimento á tre in C for 2 Violins & Bass 2nd mvmt - Menuet

Burn him at the ~~bassoon~~ stake!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on August 19, 2011, 02:33:51 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 19, 2011, 08:17:27 AM
Meh...

A nice piece? I was thinking more like totally unique, taking maximum advantage of the potential of an instrument that no one had even heard before, least of all himself. I bet the chap who commissioned it, the inventor of the keyed trumpet, Anton Weidinger, got all that he bargained for and more when he took delivery! In addition to the technical challenges )which still exist for a modern trumpeter!), it is musically on the leading edge of concerto design at the time (1796).

Blasphemer. 0:)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Das Wiener Philharmonia Trio - Hob 05 16 Divertimento á tre in C for 2 Violins & Bass 2nd mvmt - Menuet

Alright, alright. It's a historically significant concerto, that's kind of nice to listen too. :D Shit, it's a trumpet concerto, that automatically makes it a niche, for your amusement only kind of work. >:D Oh except for the Hummel concerto which is also used to torture students. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2011, 02:36:51 PM

Quote from: DavidW on August 19, 2011, 02:33:51 PM
Alright, alright. It's a historically significant concerto, that's kind of nice to listen too. :D Shit, it's a trumpet concerto, that automatically makes it a niche, for your amusement only kind of work. >:D Oh except for the Hummel concerto which is also used to torture students. :)

Yeah, Weidinger had a knack for picking composers to kick his ass for him. I read some earwitness account by someone at one of his concerts though that he tossed them off with apparent ease. Must have been a hell of a player! :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Christine Schornsheim - Hob 16 Eb2 Sonata #17 in Eb for Keyboard 2nd mvmt - Andante

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 29, 2011, 05:10:07 PM

I have these 2 box sets. Of course, they are long OOP:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnSolomons35-38-39-49-58-59cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnSolomons42-45-46-47-51-65newcover.jpg)

but the thing I am curious; note that they are marked "Volume 7" and "Volume 9". Has anyone here ever even seen any other volumes? Let alone at least 7 of them (probably 1 or 2 more)? I am hoping that someone can pass along some information to me, even if you haven't any idea about where I could get them. And of course, if you want to sell yours, we can always talk.... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on August 29, 2011, 05:25:52 PM

Don't forget the single disc which bizarrely contains a duplicate recording, and one not in the sets:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/e6/60/16fe81b0c8a094a6b6129110.L._AA300_.jpg)

I'm also confused over the volume indications on this series. It's bad enough that they haven't been reissued, but knowing that some may have had only limited release, or be languishing in the archives is annoying. I had a volume of the earlier symphonies somewhere or other as LP rips but I can't recall exactly where. I found them on RMCR or somewhere like that, the links may still be active.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 29, 2011, 05:32:59 PM

Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on August 29, 2011, 05:25:52 PM
Don't forget the single disc which bizarrely contains a duplicate recording, and one not in the sets:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/e6/60/16fe81b0c8a094a6b6129110.L._AA300_.jpg)

I'm also confused over the volume indications on this series. It's bad enough that they haven't been reissued, but knowing that some may have had only limited release, or be languishing in the archives is annoying. I had a volume of the earlier symphonies somewhere or other as LP rips but I can't recall exactly where. I found them on RMCR or somewhere like that, the links may still be active.

As nearly as I can tell, Vol. 8 is issued, it contains #26, 41, 43, 44, 48 & 52 according to a 1986 Gramophone that I ran across online. And also Vol. 10, which has (at least) #55 & 64. Finding them is the rub, though. :-\

I actually have every one of the symphonies as MP3's, but I am looking for at least Vols. 8 & (hopefully) 10 for my collection. The earlier numbered ones are the Morzin symphonies, so-called, which I have covered exceedingly well by Hogwood, Goodman and a host of others. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on August 29, 2011, 06:07:10 PM

Oh, I see, thanks. My greatest concern is that somewhere between CBS and Sony, the lack of interest or respect for these recordings means that the master copies of some could have gone missing. It's silly, as in the absence of Hogwood's traversal being boxed at mid-price, this would be my first-choice HIP collection of the symphonies :-\

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 29, 2011, 06:11:36 PM

Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on August 29, 2011, 06:07:10 PM
Oh, I see, thanks. My greatest concern is that somewhere between CBS and Sony, the lack of interest or respect for these recordings means that the master copies of some could have gone missing. It's silly, as in the absence of Hogwood's traversal being boxed at mid-price, this would be my first-choice HIP collection of the symphonies :-\

Oh, quite agree. These are super-fine. it is hard to believe that Sony bought the right to these (because really, of all the majors, Sony is the only one with a real interest in PI) and have done nothing at all with them. :-\ As part of my 'new leaf' project, I am only using versions that I have the disks of, so I would really like to get a few more of these, despite having all the Hogwood and Goodman. Nice contrast, you know? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 29, 2011, 06:54:57 PM

Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Shostakovich on August 29, 2011, 05:25:52 PM
Don't forget the single disc which bizarrely contains a duplicate recording, and one not in the sets:

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/e6/60/16fe81b0c8a094a6b6129110.L._AA300_.jpg)

This has been in my wish-list for a while, wanted another HIP recording of "Farewell" other than Harnoncourts.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 30, 2011, 04:18:06 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 29, 2011, 06:54:57 PM
This has been in my wish-list for a while, wanted another HIP recording of "Farewell" other than Harnoncourts.

Greg,

This one is particularly nice, in fact it is the one I decided to use in my Complete Haydn:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/jos-van-immerseel-haydn-symphonies-.jpg)

This one here is also very nice, as is most of the series that they produced:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51bPhBRJTXL._SS400_.jpg)

I do like that Harnoncourt you have, but I can certainly see looking around. Another couple of very good PI versions, Brüggen and Hogwood, are only available in high$$ OOP Big Box sets, which keeps them from being recommendable in my book. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on August 30, 2011, 04:58:17 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 29, 2011, 06:54:57 PM
This has been in my wish-list for a while, wanted another HIP recording of "Farewell" other than Harnoncourts.

You should pick up the Weil box set, it is awesome! :)

[asin]B001U0HB60[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on August 30, 2011, 05:17:55 AM

I need to check where I left off in my symphony survey . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 30, 2011, 06:06:00 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 30, 2011, 05:17:55 AM
I need to check where I left off in my symphony survey . . . .

The last I saw, you were in the mid-Stürm und Dräng... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on August 30, 2011, 06:25:36 AM

I have not heard the Hanover Band doing the Haydn Symphonies, but I do have their set of the Beethoven Symphonies. I like it, but I prefer a less reverberant recorded sound. Does the Haydn have this same kind of sound?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 30, 2011, 06:34:16 AM

Quote from: Leon on August 30, 2011, 06:25:36 AM
I have not heard the Hanover Band doing the Haydn Symphonies, but I do have their set of the Beethoven Symphonies. I like it, but I prefer a less reverberant recorded sound. Does the Haydn have this same kind of sound?

Not a bit of it. IIRC, the Beethoven was recorded in a church with the mic's across the street somewhere (pity since it is such nice playing) but the Haydn is just fine, as good a sound as you are likely to get. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on August 30, 2011, 06:47:20 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 30, 2011, 06:06:00 AM
The last I saw, you were in the mid-Stürm und Dräng... :)

8)

I've got a place-holder in that CD wallet . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on August 30, 2011, 06:48:55 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 30, 2011, 06:34:16 AM
Not a bit of it. IIRC, the Beethoven was recorded in a church with the mic's across the street somewhere (pity since it is such nice playing) but the Haydn is just fine, as good a sound as you are likely to get. :)

8)

Those Hanover recordings can be found at BRO in bits and pieces, but were they ever boxed?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 30, 2011, 07:08:12 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on August 30, 2011, 06:48:55 AM
Those Hanover recordings can be found at BRO in bits and pieces, but were they ever boxed?

No. I have bought up all the Helios versions of the ones I didn't have on Hyperion to start with. $4.99 at BRO. It's really a pity that A> they weren't collected and boxed and B> the set was so close to completion and yet remains unfinished. It makes me want to curse... >:(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on August 30, 2011, 07:11:36 AM

Quote from: Leon on August 30, 2011, 06:25:36 AM
I have not heard the Hanover Band doing the Haydn Symphonies, but I do have their set of the Beethoven Symphonies. I like it, but I prefer a less reverberant recorded sound. Does the Haydn have this same kind of sound?

I second Gurn - the Hyperion recordings are excellent. The recording job for those other sets was all down to Nimbus's poor decision making.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on August 30, 2011, 07:28:01 AM

Just put this on...

[asin]B003TUG3UO[/asin]

Oh man. So, so good. I don't have anything insightful to say - just, wonderful! Not sure how I will avoid playing all 4 CDs in a row.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on August 30, 2011, 08:13:47 AM

Brian is that set remastered or are you reveling in loud analog hiss and weak dynamics? >:D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on August 30, 2011, 08:31:30 AM

Quote from: DavidW on August 30, 2011, 08:13:47 AM
Brian is that set remastered or are you reveling in loud analog hiss and weak dynamics? >:D

Volume's pretty low, so didn't hear a hiss but there may be one, and the dynamics certainly weren't bad. This series of box sets does not newly remaster anything, but if there has been a previous remastered edition of the recordings, they will have used that. The new boxes with Lenny, for instance, use the Bernstein Century or Royal editions.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on August 30, 2011, 08:31:56 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 29, 2011, 06:54:57 PM
[W]anted another HIP recording of "Farewell" other than Harnoncourts.

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 30, 2011, 04:18:06 AM
Greg,

[A] couple of very good PI versions, Brüggen and Hogwood...

8)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ykckZxTrL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

3.36 Pounds at the UKAMP. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 30, 2011, 10:17:01 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on August 30, 2011, 08:31:56 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ykckZxTrL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

3.36 Pounds at the UKAMP. :)

Who are UKAMP, Navneeth? Man, those singles haven't been around in years! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on August 30, 2011, 10:19:52 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 30, 2011, 10:17:01 AM
Who are UKAMP, Navneeth? Man, those singles haven't been around in years! :)

8)

UK Amazon MarketPlace.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 30, 2011, 10:23:29 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on August 30, 2011, 10:19:52 AM
UK Amazon MarketPlace.

Doh! ::) :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on August 30, 2011, 10:41:17 AM

Quote from: Brian on August 30, 2011, 08:31:30 AM
Volume's pretty low, so didn't hear a hiss but there may be one, and the dynamics certainly weren't bad. This series of box sets does not newly remaster anything, but if there has been a previous remastered edition of the recordings, they will have used that. The new boxes with Lenny, for instance, use the Bernstein Century or Royal editions.

I ask because Sony had an essential classics series, and the first issues had no remastering, they sounded terrible. The rereleases of that series had been carefully remastered and sounded excellent. From your listening... it sounds like you got the second round.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: rubio on August 30, 2011, 11:54:45 AM

Quote from: Brian on August 30, 2011, 07:28:01 AM
Just put this on...

[asin]B003TUG3UO[/asin]

Oh man. So, so good. I don't have anything insightful to say - just, wonderful! Not sure how I will avoid playing all 4 CDs in a row.

Anybody know if this set include all of Szells Haydn recordings on Sony? Some of the sets in this new series have been uncomplete.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on August 30, 2011, 11:57:45 AM

Quote from: rubio on August 30, 2011, 11:54:45 AM
Anybody know if this set include all of Szells Haydn recordings on Sony? Some of the sets in this new series have been uncomplete.

88 from 1954 (mono)
92-98 from the 1960s (mostly 67-69)
97 from 1957 (stereo)
99 from 1957 (stereo)
104 from 1954 (mono)

So there are two mono recordings and two different stereo performances of No 97. I don't know if that's his complete Haydn, though.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 30, 2011, 05:04:32 PM

Thanks for the "Farewell" recommendations!!!!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 30, 2011, 06:07:27 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 30, 2011, 04:18:06 AM
Greg,

This one is particularly nice, in fact it is the one I decided to use in my Complete Haydn:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/jos-van-immerseel-haydn-symphonies-.jpg)

Having trouble finding it online, where can I find this recording? I also love No. 44 so this looks very attractive.
Thanks, Gurn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 30, 2011, 06:14:29 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 30, 2011, 06:07:27 PM
Having trouble finding it online, where can I find this recording? I also love No. 44 so this looks very attractive.
Thanks, Gurn.

Well, I bought it on eBay about a month ago, and before buying it, I looked on Amazon to see what I would have had to pay for it there. They had 2 copies at that time, for around $12, and I got it better on eBay. Then when I went back to get this picture for you, for whatever reason it was not to be found. Usually not fast sellers, I'm surprised if they both went in a month! Sometimes patience is your best friend, as I have so learned the hard way since beginning to collect PI disks! :) I'll see what I can find. I know couple of places.... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 30, 2011, 06:25:40 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 30, 2011, 06:07:27 PM
Having trouble finding it online, where can I find this recording? I also love No. 44 so this looks very attractive.
Thanks, Gurn.

Arkiv have it here:

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=131675

That was about the only place I could find. It's on sale though! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on August 30, 2011, 06:34:34 PM

Quote from: Brian on August 30, 2011, 11:57:45 AM

88 from 1954 (mono)
92-98 from the 1960s (mostly 67-69)
97 from 1957 (stereo)
99 from 1957 (stereo)
104 from 1954 (mono)

So there are two mono recordings and two different stereo performances of No 97. I don't know if that's his complete Haydn, though.

I have 92-98 in this format, which was released in 2009 and apparently remastered at that time.
[asin]B00223SCNU[/asin]

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 30, 2011, 06:25:40 PM
Arkiv have it here:

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=131675

That was about the only place I could find. It's on sale though! :)

8)

Another item for the next order.....I've been ordering more from them than anyone else lately.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on August 31, 2011, 09:39:46 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 30, 2011, 07:08:12 AM
No. I have bought up all the Helios versions of the ones I didn't have on Hyperion to start with. $4.99 at BRO. It's really a pity that A> they weren't collected and boxed and B> the set was so close to completion and yet remains unfinished. It makes me want to curse... >:(

8)

I count 17 discs, all now on Helios. Is that how many there were all together?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 31, 2011, 10:27:02 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on August 31, 2011, 09:39:46 AM
I count 17 discs, all now on Helios. Is that how many there were all together?

I don't know for sure, Chas. I think I have 16, but I know there is one of, like 101 & 102 that I don't have, and possibly another. Good question though, I need to check it out. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 31, 2011, 11:34:25 AM

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_F9uyqFDWxyg/TEqDy9yyxpI/AAAAAAAAD-c/DMfhyddlNmE/s1600/se%C3%B1al+alarma.gif)

Right now JPC offers vols. 2-7 of the Haydn symphonies performed by the AAM/Hogwood at EUR 9.99 every 3-CD set... an incredible bargain, indeed.

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/home/search?fastsearch=hogwood%20haydn&rubric=classic&pd_orderby=score

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 31, 2011, 11:48:36 AM

WOWZER!!!

Nice catch, Toñio, anyone who is a Haydn symphony fan and fails to act on this is making a huge mistake. This is the bargain of the year! :)

That said, sure wish they had Volume 9.... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on August 31, 2011, 12:00:27 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 31, 2011, 11:48:36 AM
WOWZER!!!

Nice catch, Toñio, anyone who is a Haydn symphony fan and fails to act on this is making a huge mistake. This is the bargain of the year! :)

That said, sure wish they had Volume 9.... :-\

8)

Unfortunately not, I recalled that you don't have that volume and I immediately looked for it, but it's really scant. Additionally, I'm pretty sure they have a very limited stock of these discs, so our pals should act quickly.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on August 31, 2011, 11:57:21 PM

The Takács Quartet have recorded Op.71 and 74, to be released in November by Hyperion :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Josquin des Prez on September 02, 2011, 02:14:16 AM

Quote from: Herman on July 24, 2011, 06:30:42 PM
whereas by now we know that in many ways Haydn was the greater composer.

In what ways?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on September 04, 2011, 08:57:03 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 31, 2011, 11:48:36 AM
WOWZER!!!

Nice catch, Toñio, anyone who is a Haydn symphony fan and fails to act on this is making a huge mistake. This is the bargain of the year! :)

A sure sign that a box-set re-release of the whole shabang is just around the corner. :-)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 04, 2011, 09:27:23 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on September 04, 2011, 08:57:03 AM
A sure sign that a box-set re-release of the whole shabang is just around the corner. :-)

If that were the case, it would be excellent. But sometimes JPC does these things without further explanation. I recall, for instance, when JPC (two years ago?) offered the complete Beethoven symphonies by Brüggen (Philips) for (?) EUR 14 and the set of Brüggen's Haydn symphonies (Sturm und Drang, Paris, London), already then and currently unavailable. Anyway, even if a box-set were released almost securely the booklets (great booklets, indeed) will be omitted.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 04, 2011, 09:40:03 AM

Quote from: toñito on August 31, 2011, 11:34:25 AM
Right now JPC offers vols. 2-7 of the Haydn symphonies performed by the AAM/Hogwood at EUR 9.99 every 3-CD set... an incredible bargain, indeed.

Thanks, dude. Just ordered vol 2 & 3

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on September 04, 2011, 09:43:14 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 04, 2011, 09:40:03 AM
Thanks, dude. Just ordered vol 2 & 3

Plotting the recovery from Pettersson already, Sarge? ; )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 04, 2011, 09:47:35 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 04, 2011, 09:40:03 AM
Thanks, dude. Just ordered vol 2 & 3

You're welcome, Sarge. It's a big bargain.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 04, 2011, 09:50:02 AM

Quote from: rubio on August 30, 2011, 11:54:45 AM
Anybody know if this set include all of Szells Haydn recordings on Sony? Some of the sets in this new series have been uncomplete.

Quote from: Brian on August 30, 2011, 11:57:45 AM

88 from 1954 (mono)
92-98 from the 1960s (mostly 67-69)
97 from 1957 (stereo)
99 from 1957 (stereo)
104 from 1954 (mono)

So there are two mono recordings and two different stereo performances of No 97. I don't know if that's his complete Haydn, though.

According to the Cleveland Orchestra discography I have, that's all Szell's Haydn except for an excerpt from The Creation. I'm pissed off. I bought several previous Columbia/Sony boxes (LP and CD) but this is the first time all Szell's Haydn symphony recordings have been packaged together. I think this may be the first time they've offered 99 since the original Epic LP.

So, more duplication or should I just say fuck it? >:(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 04, 2011, 09:51:48 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 04, 2011, 09:43:14 AM
Plotting the recovery from Pettersson already, Sarge? ; )

Yeah, I'll need it. 11 finished before I began reading this thread. I felt I needed to get away from the depressing Swede if only for a few hours. Haydn's the perfect antidote ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on September 17, 2011, 05:59:09 AM

An all Haydn morning:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61ED127ECFL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/b4/22/556dc060ada09818c68ff110.L._AA300_.jpg) (http://i.prs.to/t_200/cameratacm28043.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XSQQ0MVML._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

and an ol' Gurn rec, which has become kind of pricey these days:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71JloMjbpWL._AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 17, 2011, 07:27:23 AM

Quote from: Bogey on September 17, 2011, 05:59:09 AM
An all Haydn morning:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61ED127ECFL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/b4/22/556dc060ada09818c68ff110.L._AA300_.jpg) (http://i.prs.to/t_200/cameratacm28043.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XSQQ0MVML._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

and an ol' Gurn rec, which has become kind of pricey these days:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71JloMjbpWL._AA300_.jpg)

What a great morning you must be having, Bill! :D Lots of my favorites there, plus one that I have never seen or heard of before! The English String Quartet? Tell me about them, please. You like? Gut strings? In any case, I predict your day will be totally uplifted due to this ideal beginning. :D

For me right now, it is the music in my sig line, the complete keyboard trios:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/GurnLogo-13.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on September 17, 2011, 09:24:51 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 17, 2011, 07:27:23 AM
What a great morning you must be having, Bill! :D Lots of my favorites there, plus one that I have never seen or heard of before! The English String Quartet? Tell me about them, please. You like? Gut strings? In any case, I predict your day will be totally uplifted due to this ideal beginning. :D

For me right now, it is the music in my sig line, the complete keyboard trios:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/GurnLogo-13.jpg)

8)

It is decent. It lacks engineering at the sound end and the other four discs squash it in this category....the depth does not seem to be there. The lows are present, but the highs dominate. Also some melding issues. However, still nice to have on the shelf for infrequent visits. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 17, 2011, 09:52:07 AM

Quote from: Bogey on September 17, 2011, 09:24:51 AM
It is decent. It lacks engineering at the sound end and the other four discs squash it in this category....the depth does not seem to be there. The lows are present, but the highs dominate. Also some melding issues. However, still nice to have on the shelf for infrequent visits. :)

Thanks for that feedback, Bill. I guess that's why it hadn't got famous enough to catch my eye. Pity really, Meridian often put out some really nice disks so it caught my eye right off in your post.

If you liked that early string quartet (Op 0, which eventually got to be Op 1#5 once all that stuff got straightened out), here is a very nice disk that also uses the probable actual scoring of a double bass instead of a cello. And even if it isn't (who knows at this point?), the disk itself is excellent.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnPiccoloConcertoWienDivertimentiaQuattro.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on September 23, 2011, 07:54:00 AM

The eponymous Hausmeister is the single best represented composer in my collection, which now includes 191 discs featuring his famous John Hancock.

WHERE WILL IT END?

And how will I pay for it?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 23, 2011, 08:00:21 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on September 23, 2011, 07:54:00 AM
The eponymous Hausmeister is the single best represented composer in my collection, which now includes 191 discs featuring his famous John Hancock.

WHERE WILL IT END?

And how will I pay for it?

Cool! I didn't realize quite how good your taste really is! Well, there will be no shortage of music on that front. I have over a thousand disks now, and even if you count a box set as 1 (the way some people do) and shorten up my 150 disk Big Box to 1, I still am well supplied, to the point of not having to listen to anyone else unless I want to. Haydn has written so much! :)

Is there a genre where you feel you might be lacking?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on September 23, 2011, 08:06:08 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 23, 2011, 08:00:21 AM
Cool! I didn't realize quite how good your taste really is! Well, there will be no shortage of music on that front. I have over a thousand disks now, and even if you count a box set as 1 (the way some people do) and shorten up my 150 disk Big Box to 1, I still am well supplied, to the point of not having to listen to anyone else unless I want to. Haydn has written so much! :)

Is there a genre where you feel you might be lacking?

8)

Seems I have a ways to go, sitting on 220 Haydn items, I should take seriously the prospect of tripling or quadrupling my holdings in order to hold my own among this group.

Funny kind of pissing contest which probably would only occur on GMG.

:)

I guess I need to look at the Masses and Operas to begin to fill obvious gaps ....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 23, 2011, 08:27:24 AM

Quote from: Leon on September 23, 2011, 08:06:08 AM
Seems I have a ways to go, sitting on 220 Haydn items, I should take seriously the prospect of tripling or quadrupling my holdings in order to hold my own among this group.

Funny kind of pissing contest which probably would only occur on GMG.

:)

I guess I need to look at the Masses and Operas to begin to fill obvious gaps ....

Oh, no, not that! A cooperative venture, more like. I want everyone to enjoy this music as much as I do. :)

Operas are tough, depending on what you insist on. There is a box (or 2 or singles) by Dorati that is still unequaled. It is 20 disks for 10 operas, by the top singers of the time (late 70's early 80's, IIRC). Despite that I prefer PI, I am very pleased with these boxes anyway (I have the version in 2 orange boxes of 10 disks each). There are some singles out there that might suit if you just want to get a couple to see what they are like, I would rec from the start Orlando Paladino by Harnoncourt/Concentus Musicus Wien et al. I really like that one, think you might too.

Masses are a harder choice. I have Gardiner's "6 Great Masses", which are the last 6 after he returned from London. Also have Hickox' "Complete Masses" and Bruno Weil's "Complete Masses", Weil goes for smaller ensemble, which is more appropriate since Haydn's chapel was tiny. Hickox is nice though, I like them both, so it depends on what you feel more appropriate.

Choices from those would certainly keep your listening hours filled for quite some time. Of course, everyone has different preferences, but I don't know any non-PI choices to offer you... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on September 23, 2011, 08:39:23 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 23, 2011, 08:27:24 AM
Oh, no, not that! A cooperative venture, more like. I want everyone to enjoy this music as much as I do. :)

Masses are a harder choice. I have Gardiner's "6 Great Masses", which are the last 6 after he returned from London. Also have Hickox' "Complete Masses" and Bruno Weil's "Complete Masses", Weil goes for smaller ensemble, which is more appropriate since Haydn's chapel was tiny. Hickox is nice though, I like them both, so it depends on what you feel more appropriate.

I have this one; I'm suprised you don't have it, Gurn, as I think you would like it as much as the others (although I don't have the others so I can't really compare them)
[asin]B002IVRBBU[/asin]
Can't speak to the operas, unfortunately, since I have no recordings of those.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on September 23, 2011, 08:42:59 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 23, 2011, 08:27:24 AM
Oh, no, not that! A cooperative venture, more like. I want everyone to enjoy this music as much as I do. :)

Operas are tough, depending on what you insist on. There is a box (or 2 or singles) by Dorati that is still unequaled. It is 20 disks for 10 operas, by the top singers of the time (late 70's early 80's, IIRC). Despite that I prefer PI, I am very pleased with these boxes anyway (I have the version in 2 orange boxes of 10 disks each). There are some singles out there that might suit if you just want to get a couple to see what they are like, I would rec from the start Orlando Paladino by Harnoncourt/Concentus Musicus Wien et al. I really like that one, think you might too.

Masses are a harder choice. I have Gardiner's "6 Great Masses", which are the last 6 after he returned from London. Also have Hickox' "Complete Masses" and Bruno Weil's "Complete Masses", Weil goes for smaller ensemble, which is more appropriate since Haydn's chapel was tiny. Hickox is nice though, I like them both, so it depends on what you feel more appropriate.

Choices from those would certainly keep your listening hours filled for quite some time. Of course, everyone has different preferences, but I don't know any non-PI choices to offer you... :)

8)

Yeh, I've seen that Solti box of operas but have held off. I have the Orlando Paladino and Armida with Harnoncourt and was hoping for more from him before I invested in a bunch from Solti. In the back of my mind I'm hoping Rene Jacobs does for Haydn what he's done for Mozart, but that is no doubt a long shot, since Mozart's operas are much more often performed and arguably masterpieces while Haydn's may fall short of that description.

Regarding the Masses, the Weil sounds like something right in my wheelhouse. I had briefly thought about the Trinity Choir set on Naxos, but would probably prefer Weil since I love his work on the symphonies.

Thanks for the ideas.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on September 23, 2011, 08:44:39 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 23, 2011, 08:00:21 AM
Is there a genre where you feel you might be lacking?
8)

Baryton Trios and Operas. I've got pretty good coverage outside those. Pretty wide coverage anyway, if not very deep.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 23, 2011, 10:01:33 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on September 23, 2011, 08:44:39 AM
Baryton Trios and Operas. I've got pretty good coverage outside those. Pretty wide coverage anyway, if not very deep.

The are 2 disks on Gaudeamus (ASV):

[asin]B00004RCZB[/asin][asin]B000025UCO[/asin] and you know, if you only wanted a nice sample of the trios, these would be a great choice. On the downside, I got them 4 years ago at BRO for $3.99 ea, and they are not available at that price any longer... :-\ The are available though, which is a good thing.

Another choice that I like, and which can be had fairly easily, is this one on Dorian:

[asin]B000001QBA[/asin]

which also features Hsu, probably because there wasn't another Barytonist around at the time. :) I made do very nicely with those 3 disks for several years until I got the Brilliant Complete set. That's a lot of baryton music to choke down, though. :)

Operas, I don't have much to add to the discussion that Leon and I were having. You would be able to get Acide from BIS with Huss and Co., and Der Apotheker on Berlin Classics. There is only 1 version ever recorded of Le Pescatrici which is this one:
[asin]B002EYMIPK[/asin]
which is a shame because it is most enjoyable, even though it was partially lost and recompleted by Robbins-Landon. It is hard to tell where the seams are. :)

And finally, another that was thought to be incomplete, but actually isn't. Composed in 1792 for London, it is Orfeo et Eurydice, his last opera, also not in the Dorati box since in 1980 they thought it was just unfinished. I have Le Stagioni Frankfurt doing it on DHM, it is excellent. So that takes care of everything except La Cantarina which I can give you more details on later. 13 operas, piece of cake compared to some. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 23, 2011, 10:05:12 AM

Quote from: Leon on September 23, 2011, 08:42:59 AM
Yeh, I've seen that Solti box of operas but have held off. I have the Orlando Paladino and Armida with Harnoncourt and was hoping for more from him before I invested in a bunch from Solti. In the back of my mind I'm hoping Rene Jacobs does for Haydn what he's done for Mozart, but that is no doubt a long shot, since Mozart's operas are much more often performed and arguably masterpieces while Haydn's may fall short of that description.

Regarding the Masses, the Weil sounds like something right in my wheelhouse. I had briefly thought about the Trinity Choir set on Naxos, but would probably prefer Weil since I love his work on the symphonies.

Thanks for the ideas.

Dorati... 0:) Anyway, the version that's in 1 box/20 disks can be had for $65, worth every penny. Only way to get many of them. There are a few other singles around too, but not easy to find them. :)

I suspect the Weil would suit you nicely. They are done more or less like chamber masses. Gardiner et al do a brilliant job with their 6, but they are done in a manner suitable for St Stephan's Cathedral in Vienna than the actual chapel in Esterhazy. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 23, 2011, 10:07:45 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 23, 2011, 08:39:23 AM
I have this one; I'm suprised you don't have it, Gurn, as I think you would like it as much as the others (although I don't have the others so I can't really compare them)
[asin]B002IVRBBU[/asin]
Can't speak to the operas, unfortunately, since I have no recordings of those.

Well, if I hadn't already had 3 sets I probably would have had that one, Jeffrey. I like Glover, she has a way with an orchestra. There was nothing militating against it, other than me being 'massed out'. :D

If you do opera at all, I would rec that Harnoncourt Orlando... disk. I really think you might like it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on September 23, 2011, 10:08:41 AM

Argh! - my brain is going - yes! Dorati.

As an aside it was years before I realized his first name was NOT Anatol.

So, I have have a history of bothcing his name.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on September 24, 2011, 08:32:52 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 23, 2011, 08:27:24 AM
Masses are a harder choice. I have Gardiner's "6 Great Masses", which are the last 6 after he returned from London. Also have Hickox' "Complete Masses" and Bruno Weil's "Complete Masses", Weil goes for smaller ensemble, which is more appropriate since Haydn's chapel was tiny. Hickox is nice though, I like them both, so it depends on what you feel more appropriate.

Choices from those would certainly keep your listening hours filled for quite some time. Of course, everyone has different preferences, but I don't know any non-PI choices to offer you... :)

8)

Ah YES. Haydn's incredible masses! I am currently enjoying the only mass box I have, besides the Gardiner set:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21J5QX0SCCL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I can't find the words to describe the sublimity found in this sacred music.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 24, 2011, 08:42:07 AM

Quote from: Leo K on September 24, 2011, 08:32:52 AM
Ah YES. Haydn's incredible masses! I am currently enjoying the only mass box I have, besides the Gardiner set:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21J5QX0SCCL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I can't find the words to describe the sublimity found in this sacred music.

8)

Leo,
Indeed, even I, an essentially non-liturgical sort of fellow, find the music here superb and worth many listenings. I particularly like the Harmoniemesse, of course, with its orchestra comprised of a wind octet, but also the Paukenmesse is hugely appealing, perhaps moreso than any of its competition. :)

Is that box the Academy of Saint Martin etc? I note that even Amazon keep it a closely held secret. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on September 24, 2011, 11:06:06 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 24, 2011, 08:42:07 AM
Leo,
Indeed, even I, an essentially non-liturgical sort of fellow, find the music here superb and worth many listenings. I particularly like the Harmoniemesse, of course, with its orchestra comprised of a wind octet, but also the Paukenmesse is hugely appealing, perhaps moreso than any of its competition. :)

Is that box the Academy of Saint Martin etc? I note that even Amazon keep it a closely held secret. :D

8)

Gurn, the personal is St Johns College Choir, Kings College Choir,Christ Church Cathedral Choir with three conductors taking on different masses, they are (the last names anyways): Preston, Guest and Wilcox.

8)

I would like to get the Naxos box, because I eventually want a PI version, but this set is awesome in every way.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on September 24, 2011, 11:20:24 AM

Quote from: Leo K on September 24, 2011, 11:06:06 AM
Gurn, the personal is St Johns College Choir, Kings College Choir,Christ Church Cathedral Choir with three conductors taking on different masses, they are (the last names anyways): Preston, Guest and Wilcox.

8)

I would like to get the Naxos box, because I eventually want a PI version, but this set is awesome in every way.

8)

Yes, yes and yes! Don't have the box, but these older packages:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41HW5TYXKSL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51pKD8T7XKL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)
(http://i43.tower.com/images/mm105978029/haydn-creation-mass-various-cd-cover-art.jpg)

And I have the Gardiner and I'm curious about the Naxos.

What is this, Haydn Collectors Anonymous?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 24, 2011, 11:26:01 AM

Quote from: Leo K on September 24, 2011, 11:06:06 AM
I would like to get the Naxos box, because I eventually want a PI version, but this set is awesome in every way.

Hi, Leo. I love Haydn's masses, too. IMO the best version available (period instruments or not) is performed by Tafelmusik, conducted by Bruno Weil. Although it's not a complete set (like was a previous Brilliant Classics incarnation), you can find a 4-CD set with the last six masses really cheap at AMP:

[asin]B001TQ1KBW[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 24, 2011, 12:43:11 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on September 24, 2011, 11:26:01 AM
Hi, Leo. I love Haydn's masses, too. IMO the best version available (period instruments or not) is performed by Tafelmusik, conducted by Bruno Weil. Although it's not a complete set (like was a previous Brilliant Classics incarnation), you can find a 4-CD set with the last six masses really cheap at AMP:

[asin]B001TQ1KBW[/asin]

I was going to rec that same one. I have the Brilliant set, but you have to have connections to get it (it was only released in the Benelux countries), but the 6 Late Masses is the cream of the crop, and I saw it on AMP today for $12 brand new!! That's a bargain in anyone's book! :)

Quote from: chasmaniac on September 24, 2011, 11:20:24 AM

What is this, Haydn Collectors Anonymous?

Why yes, yes it is. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 24, 2011, 02:24:04 PM

OK - I love Masses from all periods but do I need more than one or two versions of anyone's compositions of these works? ;) :D

Now for Papa Joe, I own the Gardiner 3-CD set & the Naxos box; I love Weil & Tafelmusik and now at Amazon for $12 for 4 discs, hard to resist, but I would 'cull out' the Gardiner - just a storage issue - now for those who have heard Gardiner & Weil, which is preferable? I'm keeping the Naxos box. Thanks for comments - :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wbrK3X7wL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Yh1Av-J4L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 24, 2011, 02:27:35 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on September 24, 2011, 02:24:04 PM
OK - I love Masses from all periods but do I need more than one or two versions of anyone's compositions of these works? ;) :D

Now for Papa Joe, I own the Gardiner 3-CD set & the Naxos box; I love Weil & Tafelmusik and now at Amazon for $12 for 4 discs, hard to resist, but I would 'cull out' the Gardiner - just a storage issue - now for those who have heard Gardiner & Weil, which is preferable? I'm keeping the Naxos box. Thanks for comments - :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wbrK3X7wL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Yh1Av-J4L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Weil. Unless you really do love big expansive masses, in which case Gardiner is lovely. Weil is chamber music. Gardiner is virtually Handelian in comparison. :)

My opinion, of course.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 24, 2011, 02:36:06 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 24, 2011, 02:27:35 PM
Weil. Unless you really do love big expansive masses, in which case Gardiner is lovely. Weil is chamber music. Gardiner is virtually Handelian in comparison. :)

My opinion, of course.

Thanks Gurn - my feeling too! Just put in my AMP order for the Weil Haydn Masses - but now should I 'cull out' the Gardiner? The current listing on Amazon USA for a 'new' Gardiner set on the MP is $82! I believe that my purchase was years ago as a BMG member for almost nothing - can't remember the cost? Well, guess that I can squeeze space someplace? ;) ;D Dave

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 24, 2011, 02:56:56 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on September 24, 2011, 02:36:06 PM
Thanks Gurn - my feeling too! Just put in my AMP order for the Weil Haydn Masses - but now should I 'cull out' the Gardiner? The current listing on Amazon USA for a 'new' Gardiner set on the MP is $82! I believe that my purchase was years ago as a BMG member for almost nothing - can't remember the cost? Well, guess that I can squeeze space someplace? ;) ;D Dave

Yeah, the price is ludicrous. You can buy the 3 individual boxes for <>$30 total, although the picture of Gardiner and the chair on the bigger box is the least ridiculous of the bunch... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 24, 2011, 02:57:08 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 24, 2011, 02:27:35 PM
My opinion, of course.

Your opinion, but you're not alone. My preferences here are Weil (which IMO is perfect) and the Naxos set which is overall very good. Several times I have considered Harnoncourt, but I finally find his masses (as Gardiner's) excessively big boned.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 24, 2011, 02:58:23 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on September 24, 2011, 02:57:08 PM
Your opinion, but you're not alone. My preferences here are Weil (which IMO is perfect) and the Naxos set which is overall very good. Several times I have considered Harnoncourt, but I finally find his masses (as Gardiner's) excessively big boned.

Ah, I was looking at those 4 Harnoncourt masses this afternoon and wondering about them. Well, that seems to settle that then. :) Thanks,

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 24, 2011, 03:03:22 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 24, 2011, 02:58:23 PM
Ah, I was looking at those 4 Harnoncourt masses this afternoon and wondering about them. Well, that seems to settle that then. :) Thanks,

8)

Yesterday, I had that box in my hands, but I finally chose 2 CDs of Alessandro Scarlatti.

Sorry "Papa", it will not happen again! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 24, 2011, 03:09:11 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on September 24, 2011, 03:03:22 PM
Yesterday, I had that box in my hands, but I finally chose 2 CDs of Alessandro Scarlatti.

Sorry "Papa", it will not happen again! ;D

Yes, I saw your acquisition in another thread. You mean that you can actually go somewhere and touch a CD before buying/not buying it? What a marvel! :o :o

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 24, 2011, 03:20:28 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 24, 2011, 03:09:11 PM
Yes, I saw your acquisition in another thread. You mean that you can actually go somewhere and touch a CD before buying/not buying it? What a marvel! :o :o

8)

Yes, here in Santiago still exist two or three small physical stores and a big one, with four o five stores in different zones of the city. But just the latter has prices internationally competitive.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 24, 2011, 03:59:28 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on September 24, 2011, 03:20:28 PM
Yes, here in Santiago still exist two or three small physical stores and a big one, with four o five stores in different zones of the city. But just the latter has prices internationally competitive.

I would pay a little extra for the chance to touch.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 24, 2011, 04:10:38 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 link= :D=54.msg562732#msg562732 date=1316908768
I would pay a little extra for the chance to touch.... :)

8)

;D :D ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on September 25, 2011, 05:06:31 PM

Why no No. 1?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/414MZQ50PXL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 25, 2011, 05:15:11 PM

Quote from: Bogey on September 25, 2011, 05:06:31 PM
Why no No. 1?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/414MZQ50PXL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Oh, I see now, it is 2-4, so my previous answer was incorrect. And even the standard answer, that it reflects the actual order of composition (like in Opp 20, 33, 64 etc) doesn't hold true for Op 76, which is composed in the order given, 1-6. So, it must be eccentricity then. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on September 25, 2011, 05:52:10 PM

Quote from: Bogey on September 25, 2011, 05:06:31 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/414MZQ50PXL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

The first Haydn quartets I heard were on that Eder disc (reissued on Apex) - good stuff :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on September 25, 2011, 05:58:16 PM

Thanks for the effort, Gurn. I may crack open the notes, but, meh. :) Agree LDP. Very sharp playing here....razor sharp.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on September 25, 2011, 06:06:48 PM

Now, here's one for all you HIP Hogwood Homies!

(http://www.hogwood.org/img/paragraph_images/haydn77.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 25, 2011, 06:12:02 PM

Quote from: Bogey on September 25, 2011, 06:06:48 PM
Now, here's one for all you HIP Hogwood Homies!

(http://www.hogwood.org/img/paragraph_images/haydn77.jpg)

Yup, gotta agree, that's a peach. I just got it last week, my surprise of the month for September. :)

Here's another for the homies;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Festetics50.jpg)

My favorite opus of SQ's. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on September 25, 2011, 06:15:31 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 25, 2011, 06:12:02 PM
Yup, gotta agree, that's a peach. I just got it last week, my surprise of the month for September. :)

Is it a different recording from his aborted integral? If so, ahh how did I miss that.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 25, 2011, 06:19:56 PM

Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Pettersson on September 25, 2011, 06:15:31 PM
Is it a different recording from his aborted integral? If so, ahh how did I miss that.

I had read somewhere a few years back that the integral was aborted in mid-process. Of the already recorded items, BBC was going to buy the rights and publish them. Since this disk would have been disk 1 of Volume 11, and it is on BBC label, I have to believe that is the story of it. I only wish I knew whether there were any others hanging out there, or if this is it... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on September 27, 2011, 07:52:37 PM

Relative dropped by for dinner tonight:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61OameESdaL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 28, 2011, 04:24:46 AM

Quote from: Bogey on September 27, 2011, 07:52:37 PM
Relative dropped by for dinner tonight:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61OameESdaL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

And what sort of impression did he make? I've always liked his music, but he hasn't been given the most sympathetic portrayals it seems. Bournemouth Sinfonietta have always seemed like a solid little orchestra. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on September 28, 2011, 05:42:12 AM

Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Pettersson on September 25, 2011, 06:15:31 PM
Is it a different recording from his aborted integral? If so, ahh how did I miss that.

These are recordings licensed from Decca, recorded in 1996.
Are 77 & 76 not part of the 10 extant volumes?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 28, 2011, 05:59:21 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on September 28, 2011, 05:42:12 AM
These are recordings licensed from Decca, recorded in 1996.
Are 77 & 76 not part of the 10 extant volumes?

No, volume 10 ended with Hob I:75. SO 76 & 77 would have been disk 1 of Vol 11. Have you seen any others of these orphans, Jens?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on September 28, 2011, 06:22:23 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 28, 2011, 05:59:21 AM
No, volume 10 ended with Hob I:75. SO 76 & 77 would have been disk 1 of Vol 11. Have you seen any others of these orphans, Jens?

8)

No... must be the last recordings for the Decca project that were never published. Interesting. Also kind of crazy, in retrospect, to pull the plug on the project... instead of somehow continuing it, live if necessary. Or perhaps too bad Hogwood hasn't the commercial wherewithal of Ton Koopman or Elliot Gardiner with their respective Bach-ventures.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 28, 2011, 07:29:48 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on September 28, 2011, 06:22:23 AM
No... must be the last recordings for the Decca project that were never published. Interesting. Also kind of crazy, in retrospect, to pull the plug on the project... instead of somehow continuing it, live if necessary. Or perhaps too bad Hogwood hasn't the commercial wherewithal of Ton Koopman or Elliot Gardiner with their respective Bach-ventures.

Yes, the 10 volumes out now are one of my great treasures. I can't imagine the factors leading to that decision. They were just arriving at the most salable works when they pulled out! The Paris/Chunnel/Londons boxes would have outsold the entire 10 to that point. IMHO, it's insane. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on September 28, 2011, 12:38:59 PM

If only they foresaw the current "complete set" mania - then they might have thought differently ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on September 28, 2011, 04:45:49 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 28, 2011, 04:24:46 AM
And what sort of impression did he make? I've always liked his music, but he hasn't been given the most sympathetic portrayals it seems. Bournemouth Sinfonietta have always seemed like a solid little orchestra. :)

8)

I am just bummed that Solti never recorded them. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on September 28, 2011, 04:48:25 PM

Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevich Pettersson on September 28, 2011, 12:38:59 PM
If only they foresaw the current "complete set" mania - then they might have thought differently ;D

I emailed Hogwood's folks some time back....they thought the completion would never happen. However, they were nice enough to send me an autographed photo of Chris. Not an autograph kind of guy....prefer a handshake, but still kind of cool to have.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 28, 2011, 04:48:44 PM

Quote from: Bogey on September 28, 2011, 04:45:49 PM
I am just bummed that Solti never recorded them. 8)

Don't toy with me, Bill... :D

Did Solti do much chamber orchestra work? 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on September 28, 2011, 04:49:56 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 28, 2011, 04:48:44 PM
Don't toy with me, Bill... :D

Did Solti do much chamber orchestra work? 0:)

8)

If he did, you know he went HvK on it! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 28, 2011, 04:50:53 PM

Quote from: Bogey on September 28, 2011, 04:48:25 PM
I emailed Hogwood's folks some time back....they thought the completion would never happen. However, they were nice enough to send me an autographed photo of Chris. Not an autograph kind of guy....prefer a handshake, but still kind of cool to have.

Yeah, have to agree. He's one of that generation of HIPsters who wasn't adamant enough to put off the likes of Superhorn. And yet still made a far better impression than most. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 28, 2011, 04:52:15 PM

Quote from: Bogey on September 28, 2011, 04:49:56 PM
If he did, you know he went HvK on it! ;D

Yeah, gotta figure. Anyway, now I'm gonna have nightmares and it'll all be your fault. :P

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on September 28, 2011, 04:58:52 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 28, 2011, 04:52:15 PM
Yeah, gotta figure. Anyway, now I'm gonna have nightmares and it'll all be your fault. :P

8)

Well, I could start a Solti v. HvK Haydn thread....might be kind of interesting now that I actually consider it. I actually enjoy the Solti Haydn I have. It may be connected to the fact that this was my first exposure to Haydn. Sometimes I get that duck "imprinting effect" with music and no matter what, I can't shake it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 28, 2011, 05:05:00 PM

Quote from: Bogey on September 28, 2011, 04:58:52 PM
Well, I could start a Solti v. HvK Haydn thread....might be kind of interesting now that I actually consider it. I actually enjoy the Solti Haydn I have. It may be connected to the fact that this was my first exposure to Haydn. Sometimes I get that duck "imprinting effect" with music and no matter what, I can't shake it.

Like me with my VPO/Bernstein 88 & 92. That's a damned fine disk, I don't care who you are. But it's like fine cigars and whole bean coffee; once you head down that road it's hard to go back. I'm listening to Hanover/Goodman right now, playing the lovely #48, "Maria Theresia" and have no problem at all with less than 20 people playing. They're knocking the bottom out of it. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 28, 2011, 07:57:46 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 28, 2011, 05:05:00 PM
I'm listening to Hanover/Goodman right now, playing the lovely #48, "Maria Theresia" and have no problem at all with less than 20 people playing. They're knocking the bottom out of it. :D

8)

I've been really enjoying my Hanover/Goodman recordings more and more, only have two at the moment (6-8, 90-92), but would like to purchase more.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 29, 2011, 04:16:28 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 28, 2011, 07:57:46 PM
I've been really enjoying my Hanover/Goodman recordings more and more, only have two at the moment (6-8, 90-92), but would like to purchase more.

They have 13 of them right now at BRO, $4.99/ea brand new. Of my 17, I got 15 of them there. Can't beat the price. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on September 29, 2011, 04:21:46 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 29, 2011, 04:16:28 AM
They have 13 of them right now at BRO, $4.99/ea brand new. Of my 17, I got 15 of them there. Can't beat the price. :)

8)

And I picked up 16/17 there. These discs are still available new from Helios as well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on September 29, 2011, 06:26:00 AM

What do the Haydnistas think of this little number?

(http://www.musicalcriticism.com/recordings/cd-haydn-songs.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 29, 2011, 07:18:40 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on September 29, 2011, 06:26:00 AM
What do the Haydnistas think of this little number?

(http://www.musicalcriticism.com/recordings/cd-haydn-songs.jpg)

I like it, more for the English Canzonettas than for the German Lieder. Also has some less commonly recorded songs on it. I think for the price it is an invaluable little box. (I got it as part of the Big Box). :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 29, 2011, 05:12:07 PM

I know it's rude of me not to publish in "Purchases Today" but really, only Haydnites will be interested anyway. :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnTrazomTrioscover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnQMTriosdoublecoversquared.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnLiederVermeulencover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnHillCembalocover.jpg)

The surprise so far has been Ensemble Trazom. Of course, we know the gimmicky derivation of the name, but not a lot else about this group. Well, they kick butt! My only lament, as usual these days, is that they chose the most played part of the repertoire to record. It's a pity really, as, for example, I now have 8, count 'em 8, recordings of Hob 15:27 on period instruments alone! :o And 7 of 15:28. Compare to only 2 each of Hob 15:5, 6, 7 & 8 which are simply wonderful! Of course, Hoboken didn't help things by not having an apparent clue of the chronology when he numbered these. Those 4 are from 1784-85, hardly early works!

You would expect the Trio Mosaiques (well, not really, but I will call them (Hobarth, Coin and Cohen) that) to be excellent, and of course you won't be disappointed. I am simply delighted to see them go back as far as Hob 15:18-23 for this double disk, which is a Harmonia Mundi re-release to celebrate the 2009 Haydn Year. Not the entire series is PI, but there has been a treasure trove that IS PI, including this, which were the 2 hardest disks to find of the original releases (I didn't have either of them!). Check out BRO, I got it there for a Lied. :D

Speaking of which, I still have a disk of Lieder to get into here. Vermeulen is a known quantity to me, as I greatly enjoy both his new and old cycles of Schubert. I haven't heard him in Classical Era works yet, I have my fingers crossed that his 1st rate pianism isn't tinged with incurable Romanticism. Also Anna Cambier is new to me, so tomorrow evening I will spend with these 2 folks, enjoying what is actually a cross-section of Haydn's earlier German Lieder and his late English Canzonettas.

Finally, the lovely and talented Robert Hill. One of my favorite Bach cembalists, I look forward to hearing what he can do with Haydn. He promises to maximize my enjoyment by not being so ultra-conservative as many moderns who have adopted a backlash against the early 20th century harpsichordist who were OTT with audio effects because they had no role models. But Hill writes quite convincingly in the liner notes that the great majority of extant period harpsichords are equipped with all sorts of effects that are rarely used by modern players, and he feels that Haydn's music will work well with it. Since he is a professor of harpsichordism and I am merely an enthusiastic Haydnite, I owe him an open mind. :)

We shall see. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on September 29, 2011, 05:49:51 PM

Quote from: chasmaniac on September 29, 2011, 06:26:00 AM
What do the Haydnistas think of this little number?

(http://www.musicalcriticism.com/recordings/cd-haydn-songs.jpg)

Wow. I do not think I have ever given these a listen and I have them in my Complete Brilliant set. In fact, I have about 15 more discs of Scottish and Welsh songs from Papa that I need to turn to.....excellent post and want to hear more from all about what they know about these songs and which they enjoy the most!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 29, 2011, 05:59:13 PM

Quote from: Bogey on September 29, 2011, 05:49:51 PM
Wow. I do not think I have ever given these a listen and I have them in my Complete Brilliant set. In fact, I have about 15 more discs of Scottish and Welsh songs from Papa that I need to turn to.....excellent post and want to hear more from all about what they know about these songs and which they enjoy the most!

Well, "all I know" is probably too much to write! However, of the 24 German Lieder on that set, the first 12, from 1781 is the better half of the bracket. I like German Lieder, and so I tend to go for these. The other day in WAYLT? I posted a super little disk of those 12 in particular, along with a very nice Arianna & Naxos. It is this one here;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BeghinLieder.jpg)

I think it is the best I have heard so far. Ameling is very good though.

If you want to get into Haydn's songs, and you have a good ear for a lyric (I don't, my damaged hearing precludes understanding the words sometimes :'( ), then I recommend the 12 "Original English Canzonettas" which are settings of 12 poems by his friend in London, Anne Hunter. Some of them are really excellent, all of them are very good. He wrote them probably actually in Vienna between voyages and after trip 2, not actually while in England. Anyway, I recommend you go for those, and particularly with Ameling, who, being of the English persuasion, has her way with these.

They aren't Schubert, but no one else is either. I like them, Haydn was very good with vocal music, and in his later years he mourned not writing more of it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 29, 2011, 06:04:37 PM

The Creation may contain the greatest opening of a piece, always in awe of this music. Here is my recording of choice ATM...

[asin]B0007XHKZI[/asin]

Anyway, looking for further recommendations for The Creation, I'm actually interested to hear the English language version, other than Shaw.
Also, I don't see much discussion on Haydn's No.31 "Hornsignal" here on GMG. It has to be one of my favorite of Haydn's symphonies, (possibly a top-5 if you like lists ;D ;D) I absolutely adore the solo violin throughout the Adagio, and the "variation" finale. Just curious if any other GMG'rs share my thoughts on No.31, and if so what performance do you prefer.

Thanks in advance, love visiting Haydn's Haus!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on September 29, 2011, 06:07:10 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 29, 2011, 05:59:13 PM

He wrote them probably actually in Vienna between voyages

How stinking cool is that!?

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 29, 2011, 05:59:13 PM

They aren't Schubert, but no one else is either.

8)

No Haydn, no ~~Mozart~~ ~~Beethoven~~ Schubert. 8)

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 29, 2011, 05:59:13 PM

and you have a good ear for a lyric (I don't, my damaged hearing precludes understanding the words sometimes

Yup....Ted Nugent did mine in whe I was a young lad. :-\

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 29, 2011, 06:14:00 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 29, 2011, 06:04:37 PM
The Creation may contain the greatest opening of a piece, always in awe of this music. Here is my recording of choice ATM...

[asin]B0007XHKZI[/asin]

Anyway, looking for further recommendations for The Creation, I'm actually interested to hear the English language version, other than Shaw.
Also, I don't see much discussion on Haydn's No.31 "Hornsignal" here on GMG. It has to be one of my favorite of Haydn's symphonies, (possibly a top-5 if you like lists ;D ;D) I absolutely adore the solo violin throughout the Adagio, and the "variation" finale. Just curious if any other GMG'rs share my thoughts on No.31, and if so what performance do you prefer.

Thanks in advance, love visiting Haydn's Haus!

Always delighted to have you, Greg. :)

I am very keen on The Creation also. I have (and really enjoy!) your Spering version, and also Gardiner. His Monteverdi Choir is so special in this sort of thing. For an English version I have (and really like) this one:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Hogwood_Creation.jpg)

which brings into play the other great(er) English soprano, Emma Kirkby. The other PI English version is Macreesh, and I would like to give it a go, just haven't got to it yet, no urgency with already having Hogwood on the shelf. :)

Hornsignal is among my favorites too, although not as much for the violin as for, well, the hornsignal! Haydn was blessed at the time of composition to have the 4 best hornists in Europe all playing in his little band. He took full advantage, and you will find some killer horn writing in the works of the mid to late 1760's. Not just in orchestral either, but there are a few nice little chamber works on that line too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 29, 2011, 06:18:02 PM

Oh, just a quick note I wanted to add about German v English Creation's. Many people think that the German is authentic and the English came along later just as a convenience. Not true! Haydn actually made the publisher of the German version wait until teh English one was ready to go so they could be published simultaneously. He knew he was emulating Handel, and he felt he owed a debt to the Brits for turning him on to Handel when he was in London, so he made sure their version was just as authentic as Die Schöpfung.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 29, 2011, 06:21:36 PM

Quote from: Bogey on September 29, 2011, 06:07:10 PM
How stinking cool is that!?

I like it. A tribute to a friend left behind.

QuoteNo Haydn, no ~~Mozart~~ ~~Beethoven~~ Schubert. 8)

:) Anyone who would argue against that would be going against history. 0:)

QuoteYup....Ted Nugent did mine in whe I was a young lad. :-\

Pink Floyd for me, but there you have it. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 29, 2011, 06:33:40 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 29, 2011, 06:18:02 PM
Oh, just a quick note I wanted to add about German v English Creation's. Many people think that the German is authentic and the English came along later just as a convenience. Not true! Haydn actually made the publisher of the German version wait until teh English one was ready to go so they could be published simultaneously. He knew he was emulating Handel, and he felt he owed a debt to the Brits for turning him on to Handel when he was in London, so he made sure their version was just as authentic as Die Schöpfung.

8)

The horns in Harnoncourt's No.31 are great! Guaranteed to wake up my family early in the morning.
Read that about The Creation's text not too long ago which is why I've become interested in the English version. And I love Kirkby, so you've sold me on the Hogwood disc.

Thanks for the great info, Gurn. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on September 29, 2011, 06:40:37 PM

Wait! Wait! Before you guys pull the trigger on those--
first off, for the Creation, I hae the McCreesh. I don't have the Hogwood because, simply put, I'm in the reverse of Gurn's situation: the McCreesh is so awesomely good I'm in no hurry to get another version.
As for the Ameling CD, besides the Brilliant issue it's also available from Pentatone, in what I have read (probably right here on this thread, if we looked it up) is apparently a better remastering.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Yy0pmApLL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 29, 2011, 06:49:51 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 29, 2011, 06:40:37 PM
Wait! Wait! Before you guys pull the trigger on those--
first off, for the Creation, I hae the McCreesh. I don't have the Hogwood because, simply put, I'm in the reverse of Gurn's situation: the McCreesh is so awesomely good I'm in no hurry to get another version.

Thanks, Jeffrey. ;D
I have McCreesh/Gabrieli Players discs of Victoria's Requiem and Morales's Requiem and they sound great, so I'll keep this in mind for another Creation option.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 29, 2011, 06:59:21 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 29, 2011, 06:40:37 PM
As for the Ameling CD, besides the Brilliant issue it's also available from Pentatone, in what I have read (probably right here on this thread, if we looked it up) is apparently a better remastering.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Yy0pmApLL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

It's not just an opinion, it's a fact. I have both sets and Pentatone has notoriously better sound quality. Actually, I would say a lovely sound quality.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 29, 2011, 07:12:53 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 29, 2011, 06:14:00 PM
I am very keen on The Creation also. I have (and really enjoy!) your Spering version, and also Gardiner. His Monteverdi Choir is so special in this sort of thing. For an English version I have (and really like) this one:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Hogwood_Creation.jpg)

which brings into play the other great(er) English soprano, Emma Kirkby. The other PI English version is Macreesh, and I would like to give it a go, just haven't got to it yet, no urgency with already having Hogwood on the shelf. :)

I have five Creations: Hogwood (disc & DVD); Hengelbrock (DHM); Jacobs (HM); Harnoncourt (DHM) and Spering (Naxos), being Hogwood and Hengelbrock my favorites, nearly followed by Jacobs (which is quite unusual to me).

[asin]B000065ATU[/asin]

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 29, 2011, 07:45:01 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 29, 2011, 05:12:07 PM
I know it's rude of me not to publish in "Purchases Today" but really, only Haydnites will be interested anyway. :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnTrazomTrioscover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnQMTriosdoublecoversquared.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnLiederVermeulencover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnHillCembalocover.jpg)

The surprise so far has been Ensemble Trazom. Of course, we know the gimmicky derivation of the name, but not a lot else about this group. Well, they kick butt! My only lament, as usual these days, is that they chose the most played part of the repertoire to record. It's a pity really, as, for example, I now have 8, count 'em 8, recordings of Hob 15:27 on period instruments alone! :o And 7 of 15:28. Compare to only 2 each of Hob 15:5, 6, 7 & 8 which are simply wonderful! Of course, Hoboken didn't help things by not having an apparent clue of the chronology when he numbered these. Those 4 are from 1784-85, hardly early works!

You would expect the Trio Mosaiques (well, not really, but I will call them (Hobarth, Coin and Cohen) that) to be excellent, and of course you won't be disappointed. I am simply delighted to see them go back as far as Hob 15:18-23 for this double disk, which is a Harmonia Mundi re-release to celebrate the 2009 Haydn Year. Not the entire series is PI, but there has been a treasure trove that IS PI, including this, which were the 2 hardest disks to find of the original releases (I didn't have either of them!). Check out BRO, I got it there for a Lied. :D

Speaking of which, I still have a disk of Lieder to get into here. Vermeulen is a known quantity to me, as I greatly enjoy both his new and old cycles of Schubert. I haven't heard him in Classical Era works yet, I have my fingers crossed that his 1st rate pianism isn't tinged with incurable Romanticism. Also Anna Cambier is new to me, so tomorrow evening I will spend with these 2 folks, enjoying what is actually a cross-section of Haydn's earlier German Lieder and his late English Canzonettas.

Finally, the lovely and talented Robert Hill. One of my favorite Bach cembalists, I look forward to hearing what he can do with Haydn. He promises to maximize my enjoyment by not being so ultra-conservative as many moderns who have adopted a backlash against the early 20th century harpsichordist who were OTT with audio effects because they had no role models. But Hill writes quite convincingly in the liner notes that the great majority of extant period harpsichords are equipped with all sorts of effects that are rarely used by modern players, and he feels that Haydn's music will work well with it. Since he is a professor of harpsichordism and I am merely an enthusiastic Haydnite, I owe him an open mind. :)

We shall see. :D

8)

Nice, Gurn! I only have the disc of piano trios with the Mosaïques, but I would surely enjoy any of the others.

BTW, I have four discs of piano trios by Coin-Höbart-Cohen (yours and piano trios Nos. 25-27 & 43-45), but I think they are not a first choice in this repertoire, at least I prefer the van Swieten Trio (Brilliant Classics) by some distance. Even I consider their recorded sound a bit "dull.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on September 30, 2011, 03:24:08 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on September 29, 2011, 07:45:01 PM

BTW, I have four discs of piano trios by Coin-Höbart-Cohen (yours and piano trios Nos. 25-27 & 43-45), but I think they are not a first choice in this repertoire, at least I prefer the van Swieten Trio (Brilliant Classics) by some distance. Even I consider their recorded sound a bit "dull.

Hmmm... sad to hear.

But which are those discs:

This two-CD set (formerly released individually as ???) of nos. 32 to 37,

and the 'musique d'abord' issues of 25-27 and 43-45?

In what way are the original releases split up among these three newer releases?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/511JcBbe23L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41RdB1Y2OpL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FCBR6NS8L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Hrm08QE9L._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21VTW5C3WJL._AA115_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51T-sRFkf2L._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41CXDSZS6RL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 30, 2011, 04:11:47 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on September 30, 2011, 03:24:08 AM

Hmmm... sad to hear.

But which are those discs:

This two-CD set (formerly released individually as ???) of nos. 32 to 37,

and the 'musique d'abord' issues of 25-27 and 43-45?

In what way are the original releases split up among these three newer releases?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/511JcBbe23L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41RdB1Y2OpL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51FCBR6NS8L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Hrm08QE9L._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21VTW5C3WJL._AA115_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51T-sRFkf2L._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41CXDSZS6RL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Jens, I don't have any of the originals, which are the ones on your bottom row. I have both of the Musique d'abord disks and the Haydn year double disk, and I believe that amongst them they represent all 4 of the original releases. Which is to say, no new recordings, 8 disks = 4 recordings. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 30, 2011, 04:16:11 AM

I don't exactly know how many discs they recorded, but I know the existence of at least 6 CDs, AFAIK:

Vol. 1: Hob. XV:12-14 (piano trios Nos. 25-27)

Vol. 2: Hob. XV:18-20 (piano trios Nos. 32-34)

Vol. 3: Hob. XV:21-23 (piano trios Nos. 35-37)

Vol. 4: Hob. XV:24-26 (piano trios Nos. 38-40)

Vol. 5: Hob. XV:27-29 (piano trios Nos. 43-45)

There is also a CD with Hob. XV:15-17 (trios Nos. 28-30) and Konrad Hünteler playing the flute.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 30, 2011, 04:17:52 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on September 29, 2011, 07:45:01 PM
Nice, Gurn! I only have the disc of piano trios with the Mosaïques, but I would surely enjoy any of the others.

BTW, I have four discs of piano trios by Coin-Höbart-Cohen (yours and piano trios Nos. 25-27 & 43-45), but I think they are not a first choice in this repertoire, at least I prefer the van Swieten Trio (Brilliant Classics) by some distance. Even I consider their recorded sound a bit "dull.

I thought so on the M d'a disks, but not on the 'new' one I just got. Don't know if it was 'punched up' a bit or if it happens to be that the originals were recorded more brightly.

Not sure yet how the playing itself compares to others. It is presto in the presto sections, adagio in the adagios; IOW, I didn't note any tempo issues. The finale of Hob 18, in particular, rocks its butt off! Still, I go back to that Trazom disk and I find them to be much looser and more relaxed sounding without being sloppy about it. As I noted earlier, that disk was a surprise to me, not least because it wasn't a talked about best-seller, in fact, I haven't seen it mentioned, just sits there quietly. Ended up making a mercy purchase to round out a BRO order; glad I did! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 30, 2011, 04:20:11 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on September 30, 2011, 04:16:11 AM
I don't exactly know how many discs they recorded, but I know the existence of at least 6 CDs, AFAIK:

Vol. 1: Hob. XV:12-14 (piano trios Nos. 25-27)

Vol. 2: Hob. XV:18-20 (piano trios Nos. 32-34)

Vol. 3: Hob. XV:21-23 (piano trios Nos. 35-37)

Vol. 4: Hob. XV:24-26 (piano trios Nos. 38-40)

Vol. 5: Hob. XV:27-29 (piano trios Nos. 43-45)

There is also a CD with Hob. XV:15-17 (trios Nos. 28-30) and Konrad Hünteler playing the flute.

Ah, your volume 4 is the stranger to me then. The balance I have (except for the flute trios). I shall need to look around for that, if it isn't totally gone from the market. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 30, 2011, 04:23:40 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on September 29, 2011, 07:12:53 PM
I have five Creations: Hogwood (disc & DVD); Hengelbrock (DHM); Jacobs (HM); Harnoncourt (DHM) and Spering (Naxos), being Hogwood and Hengelbrock my favorites, nearly followed by Jacobs (which is quite unusual to me).

[asin]B000065ATU[/asin]

:)

Hengelbrock looks interesting, Antoine. What opinion do you (or anyone who does know) have on this Harnoncourt?;

[asin]B00011MJVG[/asin]

Generally love Harnoncourt's Haydn. Don't hear this one mentioned much though. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 30, 2011, 04:31:29 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 30, 2011, 04:23:40 AM
Hengelbrock looks interesting, Antoine. What opinion do you (or anyone who does know) have on this Harnoncourt?;

[asin]B00011MJVG[/asin]

Generally love Harnoncourt's Haydn. Don't hear this one mentioned much though. :-\

8)

I will listen to this set again this weekend, Gurn. I only heard it two times, so my image is still a bit diffuse. Considering the last two versions that I have heard (Harnoncourt and Jacobs), quite unexpectedly I enjoyed more Jacobs than Harnoncourt (specially because of how Jacobs uses the pianoforte in the recitatives).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 30, 2011, 04:37:17 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on September 30, 2011, 04:31:29 AM
I will listen to this set again this weekend, Gurn. I only heard it two times, so my image is still a bit diffuse. Considering the last two versions that I have heard (Harnoncourt and Jacobs), quite unexpectedly I enjoyed more Jacobs than Harnoncourt (specially because of how Jacobs uses the pianoforte in the recitatives).

Ah, thanks in advance for the feedback then. Another that I have run across that has potential for me is Bruno Weil on Vivarte. It has managed to keep a low profile.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on September 30, 2011, 05:31:52 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 30, 2011, 04:37:17 AM
Ah, thanks in advance for the feedback then. Another that I have run across that has potential for me is Bruno Weil on Vivarte. It has managed to keep a low profile.... :)

8)

Favorite Creation: McCreesh, by some measure. http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=446 (http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=446)

I like Jacobs, too, but his Creation isn't as superior to the rest as his Seasons were. Harnoncourt had a real run when he made his Creation... one superb disc after another... and then there were a few that fell oddly flat. His Messiah, for example, or this Creation which rises above average, but not by much.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 30, 2011, 06:06:28 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on September 30, 2011, 05:31:52 AM
Favorite Creation: McCreesh, by some measure. http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=446 (http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=446)

I like Jacobs, too, but his Creation isn't as superior to the rest as his Seasons were. Harnoncourt had a real run when he made his Creation... one superb disc after another... and then there were a few that fell oddly flat. His Messiah, for example, or this Creation which rises above average, but not by much.

Thanks, Jens. McCreesh seems to be the one that I need to get, I think. You are but one of the Legion of Admirers of that performance. Pity about Harnoncourt, every once and again he does that, sad to say. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 30, 2011, 06:22:56 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 30, 2011, 06:06:28 AM
Thanks, Jens. McCreesh seems to be the one that I need to get, I think. You are but one of the Legion of Admirers of that performance. Pity about Harnoncourt, every once and again he does that, sad to say. :-\

8)

A bona fides recommendation, Gurn: Think in Hengelbrock.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 30, 2011, 07:30:29 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on September 30, 2011, 06:22:56 AM
A bona fides recommendation, Gurn: Think in Hengelbrock.

Always 1 German & 1 English. So both will be just right. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 30, 2011, 08:33:19 AM

Boy, a lot of pages have been added since my last visit to Joe's place! ;D

Now despite having 'tons' of Haydn's instrumental music, I've been ignoring his oratorios - do own the Gardiner version of The Creation, and decided to just add an 'English' performance to my Amazon cart - the Paul McCreesh recording appears to be one of the top recordings being recommended from the previous discussion.

Now for The Seasons, I discarded an older bargain recording (cannot recall which one) a number of years ago, and would like to correct that absence in my collection - SO, what would Papa Haydn enthusiasts recommend? Thanks - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 30, 2011, 09:26:38 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on September 30, 2011, 08:33:19 AM
Boy, a lot of pages have been added since my last visit to Joe's place! ;D

Now despite having 'tons' of Haydn's instrumental music, I've been ignoring his oratorios - do own the Gardiner version of The Creation, and decided to just add an 'English' performance to my Amazon cart - the Paul McCreesh recording appears to be one of the top recordings being recommended from the previous discussion.

Now for The Seasons, I discarded an older bargain recording (cannot recall which one) a number of years ago, and would like to correct that absence in my collection - SO, what would Papa Haydn enthusiasts recommend? Thanks - Dave :)

Not sure about him, Dave, but I listened to my Gardiner just the other night and found it highly enjoyable. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on September 30, 2011, 04:56:54 PM

Anyone here familiar with this Creation recording?

(http://store.acousticsounds.com/images/large/COEH_609_SA__39293__01152009115712-3613.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 30, 2011, 05:00:00 PM

Quote from: Bogey on September 30, 2011, 04:56:54 PM
Anyone here familiar with this Creation recording?

(http://store.acousticsounds.com/images/large/COEH_609_SA__39293__01152009115712-3613.jpg)

Not I. The only familiar name to me there is Miah Persson, a wonderful soprano who specializes in Classical Era repertoire. The Mozarteum Orchestra never sucks, that's the most I can add... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on September 30, 2011, 05:13:52 PM

Here are four more under consideration....anyone have opinions on Huss:

(http://store.acousticsounds.com/images/large/CBIS_M1812_SA__58062__05072009014133-9643.jpg) (http://store.acousticsounds.com/images/large/CBIS_M1813_SA__63413__09292009105353-808.jpg) (http://store.acousticsounds.com/images/large/CBIS_M1815_SA__71714__11172010031628-217.jpg) (http://store.acousticsounds.com/images/large/CBIS_M1811_SA__65944__01272010123016-9081.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 30, 2011, 05:24:48 PM

Quote from: Bogey on September 30, 2011, 05:13:52 PM
Here are four more under consideration....anyone have opinions on Huss:

(http://store.acousticsounds.com/images/large/CBIS_M1812_SA__58062__05072009014133-9643.jpg) (http://store.acousticsounds.com/images/large/CBIS_M1813_SA__63413__09292009105353-808.jpg) (http://store.acousticsounds.com/images/large/CBIS_M1815_SA__71714__11172010031628-217.jpg) (http://store.acousticsounds.com/images/large/CBIS_M1811_SA__65944__01272010123016-9081.jpg)

Sure. I have all 4 of those (plus the 2 biggies, "Music for Naples and Esterhazy" and "Complete Divertimentos" and "Complete Overtures"). Huss is the ultimate Haydn scholar/musician and a personal favorite of mine. His BIS disks are the heart of my collection, actually, at least as far as "off the beaten path" Haydn goes. Playing is excellent, and SQ is typical BIS, despite that they got some of the earlier stuff from Koch/Schwann, their remasterings were superb. Bottom line, I spent way more money on the complete Huss than I normally would do, and don't regret a bit of it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on September 30, 2011, 09:23:20 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on September 30, 2011, 05:00:00 PM
Not I. The only familiar name to me there is Miah Persson, a wonderful soprano who specializes in Classical Era repertoire. The Mozarteum Orchestra never sucks, that's the most I can add... :-\

Same here. The only familiar name to me is Topi Lehtipuu. Some weeks ago I bought a Naïve disc from the Vivaldi Edition entitled "Arias for Tenor", where Lehtipuu sings accompanied by Diego Fasolis and his gang. This is one of those arias - the beautiful illustrations are by Dante Gabriel Rossetti:

http://www.youtube.com/v/L3NtTCnI3rg

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on October 01, 2011, 07:03:14 AM

Speaking of Haydn vocal works, I'm IN LOVE with this disk of arias...a great survey for someone like me just learning Haydn's vocal works 8)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51BPVwfmo%2BL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 01, 2011, 07:10:17 AM

Quote from: Leo K on October 01, 2011, 07:03:14 AM
Speaking of Haydn vocal works, I'm IN LOVE with this disk of arias...a great survey for someone like me just learning Haydn's vocal works 8)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51BPVwfmo%2BL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Yes, that's an excellent disk. When I got it I didn't know anything about "insertion arias" so that was a surprise for me to discover. Beautifully played too. I also discovered that when it was combined with this disk:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HussOperaatEsterhazacover.jpg)

I had 99% of all of Haydn's. Great stuff. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on October 01, 2011, 07:25:10 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 01, 2011, 07:10:17 AM
Yes, that's an excellent disk. When I got it I didn't know anything about "insertion arias" so that was a surprise for me to discover. Beautifully played too. I also discovered that when it was combined with this disk:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HussOperaatEsterhazacover.jpg)

I had 99% of all of Haydn's. Great stuff. :)

8)

I've gotta explore Huss's recordings! 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 01, 2011, 07:28:41 AM

Quote from: Leo K on October 01, 2011, 07:25:10 AM
I've gotta explore Huss's recordings! 8)

Cream of the crop.... :) Especially since they represent the only recording option for many works.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 01, 2011, 08:27:43 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on September 30, 2011, 09:23:20 PM
Same here. The only familiar name to me is Topi Lehtipuu. Some weeks ago I bought a Naïve disc from the Vivaldi Edition entitled "Arias for Tenor", where Lehtipuu sings accompanied by Diego Fasolis and his gang. This is one of those arias - the beautiful illustrations are by Dante Gabriel Rossetti:

I first encountered him on the Monteverdi CD which Haim recorded with Villazon ("Combattimento"), where he was the second tenor; he also sings Lurcanio in the new Ariodante from Curtis/Complesso Barocco. If he appears on a recording, I would take it as a sing of good quality.

ETA: SIGN of good quality. But the typo is too good to delete.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 02, 2011, 07:41:01 AM

Starting with some piano sonatas from my Brilliant set...

HOB XVI:
41
16
2
32
46

Bart van Oort fortepiano

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2011, 07:46:36 AM

Quote from: Bogey on October 02, 2011, 07:41:01 AM
Starting with some piano sonatas from my Brilliant set...

HOB XVI:
41
16
2
32
46

Bart van Oort fortepiano

Nice choice, Bill. You are really covering a time span there, since 16 is from 1756, 41 is sonata #55 from 1783, and the rest are all somewhere in between. Nice cross-section of stylistic progress. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 02, 2011, 07:51:43 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 02, 2011, 07:46:36 AM
Nice choice, Bill. You are really covering a time span there, since 16 is from 1756, 41 is sonata #55 from 1783, and the rest are all somewhere in between. Nice cross-section of stylistic progress. :)

8)

Beautiful stuff....here are the dates on the back notes:

41 (1782/84)
16 (Before 1766)
2 (Before 1766)
32 (1776)
46 (1768)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2011, 07:59:08 AM

Quote from: Bogey on October 02, 2011, 07:51:43 AM
Beautiful stuff....here are the dates on the back notes:

41 (1782/84)
16 (Before 1766)
2 (Before 1766)
32 (1776)
46 (1768)

Yeah, that's the "beauty" of dealing with Haydn's music. If you check 10 different sources you will get 10 different dates. :D

"Before 1766" showed up all the time in older sources. I think (although I don't have it to check from) that Hoboken used it starting in the late 1950's to indicate things he just didn't know. Haydn started keeping his hand written catalog of his works in 1766, and so anything that doesn't show up there is clearly "Before 1766". Later research has nailed a bunch of them down, but certainly not all. The last 4 years have been frustrating for me... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 02, 2011, 08:03:02 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 02, 2011, 07:59:08 AM
Yeah, that's the "beauty" of dealing with Haydn's music. If you check 10 different sources you will get 10 different dates. :D

"Before 1766" showed up all the time in older sources. I think (although I don't have it to check from) that Hoboken used it starting in the late 1950's to indicate things he just didn't know. Haydn started keeping his hand written catalog of his works in 1766, and so anything that doesn't show up there is clearly "Before 1766". Later research has nailed a bunch of them down, but certainly not all. The last 4 years have been frustrating for me... :D

8)

I knew you would have better sources at your fingertips. $:) My goal is to actually listen to this entire box set in the 6 months or so. However, I am going to just pick and choose pieces as opposed to doing them in any chronological or categorical order.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2011, 08:08:04 AM

Quote from: Bogey on October 02, 2011, 08:03:02 AM
I knew you would have better sources at your fingertips. $:) My goal is to actually listen to this entire box set in the 6 months or so. However, I am going to just pick and choose pieces as opposed to doing them in any chronological or categorical order.

:)

That's an excellent way to do it, actually. Which box is it, Bill? The great huge one or the box of keyboard sonatas by Oort et al? I don't have that one, just the big one. Anyway, if all the disks are set up like this first one, then you will get to hear early and late on each one, which will be interesting indeed. Please let us know what you are thinking as you progress through. I think some (many) of those works are outstanding, yet virtually unheard of. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 02, 2011, 08:14:44 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 02, 2011, 08:08:04 AM
:)

That's an excellent way to do it, actually. Which box is it, Bill? The great huge one or the box of keyboard sonatas by Oort et al? I don't have that one, just the big one. Anyway, if all the disks are set up like this first one, then you will get to hear early and late on each one, which will be interesting indeed. Please let us know what you are thinking as you progress through. I think some (many) of those works are outstanding, yet virtually unheard of. :)

8)

Its the honker:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-oKqkjIeL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2011, 08:17:50 AM

Quote from: Bogey on October 02, 2011, 08:14:44 AM
Its the honker:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-oKqkjIeL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

;D

Cool!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 02, 2011, 08:42:12 AM

Some violin concerto action now:

1, 4, and 3 (HOB VIIA)

Federico Guglielmo (Gennaro Gagliano, Naples 1757)
L'Arte dell'Arco (on period instruments)

Here is one from 1750:

(http://www.sim.spk-berlin.de/uploads/02-mim-exponate/violine_gagliano_popup.jpg)

Cool site:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.sim.spk-berlin.de/uploads/02-mim-exponate/violine_gagliano_popup.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.sim.spk-berlin.de/bildergalerie_mim_sammelschwerpunkte_763.html&usg=__-D__w-ZMqcYaCo4R5J-hPurjSig=&h=649&w=484&sz=40&hl=en&start=6&zoom=1&tbnid=xJcUsvcmCAguCM:&tbnh=137&tbnw=102&ei=RZOITuyZJJGutweh-bEw&prev=/search%3Fq%3DGennaro%2BGagliano%2B1775%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:*%26rlz%3D1I7ADFA_enUS439%26tbm%3Disch&um=1&itbs=1

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2011, 08:52:14 AM

Quote from: Bogey on October 02, 2011, 08:42:12 AM
Some violin concerto action now:

1, 4, and 3 (HOB VIIA)

Federico Guglielmo (Gennaro Gagliano, Naples 1757)
L'Arte dell'Arco (on period instruments)

Here is one from 1750:

(http://www.sim.spk-berlin.de/uploads/02-mim-exponate/violine_gagliano_popup.jpg)

Cool site:

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.sim.spk-berlin.de/uploads/02-mim-exponate/violine_gagliano_popup.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.sim.spk-berlin.de/bildergalerie_mim_sammelschwerpunkte_763.html&usg=__-D__w-ZMqcYaCo4R5J-hPurjSig=&h=649&w=484&sz=40&hl=en&start=6&zoom=1&tbnid=xJcUsvcmCAguCM:&tbnh=137&tbnw=102&ei=RZOITuyZJJGutweh-bEw&prev=/search%3Fq%3DGennaro%2BGagliano%2B1775%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:*%26rlz%3D1I7ADFA_enUS439%26tbm%3Disch&um=1&itbs=1

Sonic Alert, Sonic Alert!! Dave, you need to check out this link! :D

Wow, Bill, that's a nice site. Beautiful instruments. I see lots of old keyboards and fiddles, but the other stuff is thin on the ground.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on October 02, 2011, 09:21:37 AM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-6QnqDzUL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Wow. What an amazing disk! I have neglected to tackle Haydn's earliest string quartet works, and now I can see what a MISTAKE that was! I didn't expect such deep feeling, such nuance and beauty in these early works.

I am floored! 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2011, 09:31:17 AM

Quote from: Leo K on October 02, 2011, 09:21:37 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-6QnqDzUL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Wow. What an amazing disk! I have neglected to tackle Haydn's earliest string quartet works, and now I can see what a MISTAKE that was! I didn't expect such deep feeling, such nuance and beauty in these early works.

I am floored! 8)

Know what you mean, Leo. When he wrote those 10 divertimentos back in the late '50's, he never really visualized how popular they would be with other musicians. There are hand-written parts all over Europe that other string players copied and brought along, before the publishers got wind of them. By the time they were published in the early 1760's, they were already well known among players. I really like them myself, they get a lot of playtime here at Casa Blanston. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on October 02, 2011, 09:43:58 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 02, 2011, 09:31:17 AM
Know what you mean, Leo. When he wrote those 10 divertimentos back in the late '50's, he never really visualized how popular they would be with other musicians. There are hand-written parts all over Europe that other string players copied and brought along, before the publishers got wind of them. By the time they were published in the early 1760's, they were already well known among players. I really like them myself, they get a lot of playtime here at Casa Blanston. :)

8)

Suddenly, I am struck by a previously-unknown-to-me aspect of string quartet history...fascinating stuff! There are always epiphanies that go with this era of music 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 02, 2011, 09:55:40 AM

....and speaking of depth....and richness for that matter, really enjoyed the HOB VIIA:3 out of the 1, 4 and 3 lot, especially the first movement. Though the Allegro from 4 is not to be missed either. 8)

Due to Leo's post, now spinning the Op. 1 Nos. 1-4 a la Buchberger Quartet. Do not have the Kodaly disc, so hopefully these performances are decent.
(http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/18705633/Buchberger+Quartet.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2011, 09:56:14 AM

Quote from: Leo K on October 02, 2011, 09:43:58 AM
Suddenly, I am struck by a previously-unknown-to-me aspect of string quartet history...fascinating stuff! There are always epiphanies that go with this era of music 8)

Well, as always, there is dispute over whether they are actual, real-deal, string quartets. Haydn didn't think so, but they did serve as an inspiration to him down the road when it came to Op 9 & 17. On the one hand, they are 5 movements with 2 minuets, which is pure divertimento form. Also, the unspecified "Bass" is thought to mean 16' (double bass) rather than 8' (cello) bass. Nonetheless, we totally treat them as string quartets, and they work just fine that way. I do have a beautiful little disk by Piccolo Concerto Wien that uses a Bass, wish I had the entire group done that way. Here is my SQ set, BTW:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/StringdivertimentosKlein-1.jpg)

I have Kodaly's (which I like and they introduced ME, too!), and I had seen this sitting around untouched at BRO for a year before I finally scooped it up for $8 for 4 disks, now you can't touch it for under $50 on AMP. :o It isn't PI (there isn't a full PI set of these) but no matter, it is awfully good. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2011, 10:03:20 AM

Quote from: Bogey on October 02, 2011, 09:55:40 AM
....and speaking of depth....and richness for that matter, really enjoyed the HOB VIIA:3 out of the 1, 4 and 3 lot, especially the first movement. Though the Allegro from 4 is not to be missed either. 8)

Due to Leo's post, now spinning the Op. 1 Nos. 1-4 a la Buchberger Quartet. Do not have the Kodaly disc, so hopefully these performances are decent.
(http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/18705633/Buchberger+Quartet.jpg)

Glad you liked those, Bill. Hob VIIa:1 he wrote as an introductory gesture for Luigi Tomasini. It is considered to be the most complex of the lot. I think #4 sounds more Baroque than the others, and in fact it was written 2 years earlier (1761) while the others are both from the same year, 1763. Along with the Hob 18 organ concertos, I think that the 3 & 4 violin concertos sound the most "primitive". Hard to believe the first cello co0ncerto is from the same year! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 02, 2011, 10:03:25 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 02, 2011, 08:52:14 AM
Sonic Alert, Sonic Alert!! Dave, you need to check out this link! :D

Wow, Bill, that's a nice site. Beautiful instruments. I see lots of old keyboards and fiddles, but the other stuff is thin on the ground.

Thanks, Bill & Gurn for that link to the 'old' instruments - will take a good look and possibly post a few in the 'Old Instrument Thread'!

I really love seeing these in person - when Susan & I were in the Big Apple a few years ago (when we met Bruce) - we spent a half day in the Met (of course, one needs to be quite selective w/ that short amount of time & we went our separate ways) - whenever I visit that museum, my first stop is the musical instrument section - well, S*&T, it was closed for renovation - BUT, an excuse to go back to NYC and soon! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 02, 2011, 10:13:29 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on October 02, 2011, 10:03:25 AM
Thanks, Bill & Gurn for that link to the 'old' instruments - will take a good look and possibly post a few in the 'Old Instrument Thread'!

I really love seeing these in person - when Susan & I were in the Big Apple a few years ago (when we met Bruce) - we spent a half day in the Met (of course, one needs to be quite selective w/ that short amount of time & we went our separate ways) - whenever I visit that museum, my first stop is the musical instrument section - well, S*&T, it was closed for renovation - BUT, an excuse to go back to NYC and soon! ;D

Did you tell them that you are a GMG member....which allows you complete access to such amusements. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on October 02, 2011, 10:16:08 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 02, 2011, 09:56:14 AM
Also, the unspecified "Bass" is thought to mean 16' (double bass) rather than 8' (cello) bass.

Pardon the digression, but could you explain the notation, viz. the single quote? I'm fairly certain that a cello isn't 8 feet tall. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2011, 10:28:02 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on October 02, 2011, 10:16:08 AM
Pardon the digression, but could you explain the notation, viz. the single quote? I'm fairly certain that a cello isn't 8 feet tall. ;D

Well, one of those things that I am not an expert on (so many of those!) but the 8' and 16' are having to do with the pitch produced by an organ. The pitch range is determined by the longest pipe in a rank of pipes. An 8' pipe is like a medium bass. A 16' is an octave lower, and a 4' is an octave higher. So when this system is applied to other instruments (which it is), a cello is an 8' bass, a double bass is a 16' bass, and a viola is a 4' bass.

When a composer says "Basso" and doesn't specify, then it's time to make educated guesses. In the 19th century (really earlier, in the 1770's in England) it was decided that these were string quartets and they were marketed and played as such, that is, with an 8' bass. However, that doesn't mean that this is what Haydn had in mind when he wrote them, since string divertimentos in 1750's Vienna were frequently (maybe always) accompanied by a double bass. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on October 02, 2011, 10:39:50 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 02, 2011, 10:28:02 AM
Well, one of those things that I am not an expert on (so many of those!) but the 8' and 16' are having to do with the pitch produced by an organ. The pitch range is determined by the longest pipe in a rank of pipes. An 8' pipe is like a medium bass. A 16' is an octave lower, and a 4' is an octave higher. So when this system is applied to other instruments (which it is), a cello is an 8' bass, a double bass is a 16' bass, and a viola is a 4' bass.

When a composer says "Basso" and doesn't specify, then it's time to make educated guesses. In the 19th century (really earlier, in the 1770's in England) it was decided that these were string quartets and they were marketed and played as such, that is, with an 8' bass. However, that doesn't mean that this is what Haydn had in mind when he wrote them, since string divertimentos in 1750's Vienna were frequently (maybe always) accompanied by a double bass. :)

8)

I had the organ in mind, but I never thought the same set of descriptors was also used for other instruments. Thanks. :)

*We now return to our regularly scheduled programming*

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on October 02, 2011, 11:55:08 AM

Quote from: Bogey on October 02, 2011, 09:55:40 AM
....and speaking of depth....and richness for that matter, really enjoyed the HOB VIIA:3 out of the 1, 4 and 3 lot, especially the first movement. Though the Allegro from 4 is not to be missed either. 8)

Due to Leo's post, now spinning the Op. 1 Nos. 1-4 a la Buchberger Quartet. Do not have the Kodaly disc, so hopefully these performances are decent.
(http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/_/18705633/Buchberger+Quartet.jpg)

And you got me spinning some select sonatas from this box:

(http://pixhost.me/avaxhome/ca/01/001101ca_medium.jpeg)

8)

Right now, I'm listening to Sonata #56 in D major. Very profound piece of music.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 02, 2011, 04:18:48 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 30, 2011, 12:00:58 PM

6. Symphonies from 1782 – 1784 – Call them what you will, but my choice is that these are Haydn's first mature symphonies in the Classical Style. They were composed for a trip to London where Haydn was to direct their premiere, but eventually sold to a Parisian publisher when that fell through. They are actually 2 sets of 3, just like the Paris Symphonies. I consider them to be neglected masterpieces; you be the judge. They are 76, 77, 78, 79, 80 & 81.

Spinning Symphonies 76-78.....Fischer.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2011, 04:22:45 PM

Quote from: Bogey on October 02, 2011, 04:18:48 PM
Spinning Symphonies 76-78.....Fischer.

Ah, you lucky devil! Enjoy those. And the second set when those are done. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 03, 2011, 06:14:31 AM

Well, I was unable to find Brüggen's Stürm und Dräng Symphonies in the big box that some of you were fortunate enough to pick up a couple of years ago, so I got the entire as 5 singles or doubles plus this rascal here:

[asin]B000023ZEL[/asin]

which I negotiated a better price with the seller. $100 was too rich for MY blood, no matter how much I wanted to replace my old downloads. :)

BTW, is that not a bizarre cover shot of Brüggen there? ???

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 03, 2011, 02:55:19 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 03, 2011, 06:14:31 AM
Well, I was unable to find Brüggen's Stürm und Dräng Symphonies in the big box that some of you were fortunate enough to pick up a couple of years ago, so I got the entire as 5 singles or doubles plus this rascal here:

[asin]B000023ZEL[/asin]

which I negotiated a better price with the seller. $100 was too rich for MY blood, no matter how much I wanted to replace my old downloads. :)

BTW, is that not a bizarre cover shot of Brüggen there? ???

8)

Only one Miles:

(http://www.swotti.com/tmp/swotti/cacheBWLSZXMGZGF2AXM=RW50ZXJ0YWLUBWVUDC1NDXNPY0JHBMRZ/imgmiles%20davis4.jpg)

Bruggen may be good to great....but he ain't got the coolness in his entire body that Miles has in the tip of his pinky. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 03, 2011, 07:10:40 PM

.....Piano Trio disc tonight. HOB XV:
1
5
C1 (talk to me Gurn)
37

Though mine are from the mega-box, they also came in this set:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VMS5SAR7L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Van Swieten Trio (Van Oort on fortepiano). This is definitely a different sounding effort than my much beloved Beaux Arts Trio. Nice to have 'em both on the shelf.
From the web:
Van Oort teaches fortepiano and is a lecturer in Historical Performance Practice at the Royal Conservatory in The Hague, the Conservatory of Amsterdam, and at the Royal Flemish Conservatory in Antwerp. He is also the founder of the Van Swieten Society, which performs classical chamber music.

Looks as though he came through Husker territory!

http://newsroom.unl.edu/releases/2007/10/23/Music+historian,+fortepianist+van+Oort+to+give+Geske+Lecture+Nov.+5+at+UNL

PS: I see they were mentioned on page 1 of this thread!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on October 04, 2011, 12:30:15 AM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Yh1Av-J4L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I bought this set on an experimental whim a couple of years ago while on holiday, and was surprised to find how delightfully easy Haydn's masses were to listen to. Not light, exactly, but I could understand why, in his day, some of his masses were not regarded as serious enough to be sacred. Anyway, on that holiday I worked my way through the box - a different mass every day - and was well-pleased with my purchase.

Yet somehow the box stayed on the shelf after I carried it home, and only in the last couple of days have I blown the dust off it. And again, I'm so very pleasantly surprised by the exquisite character of what I'm hearing. I've no basis for comparison with other recordings, but I've no reason to question the performances - some lovely singing, and a good crisp period sound. Do other folk have this box? Any comments?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 04, 2011, 04:40:34 AM

Quote from: Bogey on October 03, 2011, 07:10:40 PM
.....Piano Trio disc tonight. HOB XV:
1
5
C1 (talk to me Gurn)
37

Though mine are from the mega-box, they also came in this set:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VMS5SAR7L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Van Swieten Trio (Van Oort on fortepiano). This is definitely a different sounding effort than my much beloved Beaux Arts Trio. Nice to have 'em both on the shelf.
From the web:
Van Oort teaches fortepiano and is a lecturer in Historical Performance Practice at the Royal Conservatory in The Hague, the Conservatory of Amsterdam, and at the Royal Flemish Conservatory in Antwerp. He is also the founder of the Van Swieten Society, which performs classical chamber music.

Looks as though he came through Husker territory!

http://newsroom.unl.edu/releases/2007/10/23/Music+historian,+fortepianist+van+Oort+to+give+Geske+Lecture+Nov.+5+at+UNL

PS: I see they were mentioned on page 1 of this thread!

That's a very nice set, Bill. Ye're right, nice complement to the BAT set.

Hob 15_C1 - When Hoboken wrote his trio section, this trio was known, but its provenance was not. He listed it as "attributed to" because he wasn't sure one way or the other. Since that time (1956) the trio has been authenticated, but since it already had a 'name' that it was known by, it didn't graduate to a 'real' number. To break it down, "C1" means the first (of a series) trio in C major attributed to Haydn".

Of all the ones listed thusly (and there are plenty!), the only 2 that have been authenticated are C1 and f1. I like the f minor one, it's very nice. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 04, 2011, 04:43:44 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on October 04, 2011, 12:30:15 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Yh1Av-J4L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I bought this set on an experimental whim a couple of years ago while on holiday, and was surprised to find how delightfully easy Haydn's masses were to listen to. Not light, exactly, but I could understand why, in his day, some of his masses were not regarded as serious enough to be sacred. Anyway, on that holiday I worked my way through the box - a different mass every day - and was well-pleased with my purchase.

Yet somehow the box stayed on the shelf after I carried it home, and only in the last couple of days have I blown the dust off it. And again, I'm so very pleasantly surprised by the exquisite character of what I'm hearing. I've no basis for comparison with other recordings, but I've no reason to question the performances - some lovely singing, and a good crisp period sound. Do other folk have this box? Any comments?

Alan,
I don't have that set personally, but it has gotten a lot of love here, some of it rather recently. Your description of the masses is quite congruent with my own; Haydn was irrepressible, and his sunny outlook extends even to his "solemn" music, which in some cases isn't all that solemn at all! Hard to not like that, unless you are irrepressibly solemn yourself (as many were in those days). :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on October 04, 2011, 04:55:17 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 04, 2011, 04:43:44 AM
Haydn was irrepressible, and his sunny outlook extends even to his "solemn" music, which in some cases isn't all that solemn at all! Hard to not like that, unless you are irrepressibly solemn yourself (as many were in those days). :)

There is a legend in respect to that. Haydn is asked why his religious music is joyous and cheerful instead of being solemn and serious. His reply: "Because whenever I think about God I become cheerful and joyous!". Se non e vero e ben trovato. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 04, 2011, 04:59:38 AM

Quote from: Florestan on October 04, 2011, 04:55:17 AM
There is a legend in respect to that. Haydn is asked why his religious music is joyous and cheerful instead of being solemn and serious. His reply: "Because whenever I think about God I become cheerful and joyous!". Se non e vero e ben trovato. :)

Florestanio!
Yes, Haydn was certainly a Deistically-oriented sort of a person. Note that he completed a great number of his manuscripts with the phrase 'Finis, Laus Deo'. I always took it to be a sigh of relief, but there are other possibilities, I suppose... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on October 04, 2011, 06:13:44 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 04, 2011, 04:59:38 AM
Florestanio!
Yes, Haydn was certainly a Deistically-oriented sort of a person. Note that he completed a great number of his manuscripts with the phrase 'Finis, Laus Deo'. I always took it to be a sigh of relief, but there are other possibilities, I suppose... :D

8)

I'd replace Deistically with Theistically - but you know I'm not the person to insist upon terminology... :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 04, 2011, 06:20:39 AM

Quote from: Florestan on October 04, 2011, 06:13:44 AM
I'd replace Deistically with Theistically - but you know I'm not the person to insist upon terminology... :D

Nor am I one to inject anything controversial into a post... :D

You're right, of course...

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 04, 2011, 06:21:02 AM

Quote from: Florestan on October 04, 2011, 04:55:17 AM
There is a legend in respect to that. Haydn is asked why his religious music is joyous and cheerful instead of being solemn and serious. His reply: "Because whenever I think about God I become cheerful and joyous!". Se non e vero e ben trovato. :)

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 04, 2011, 04:59:38 AM
Florestanio!
Yes, Haydn was certainly a Deistically-oriented sort of a person. Note that he completed a great number of his manuscripts with the phrase 'Finis, Laus Deo'. I always took it to be a sigh of relief, but there are other possibilities, I suppose... :D

Hi, Florestan!

This theme is very attractive to me.

Maybe you have noticed I'm very interested in Bach and North German Baroque music in general and, frequently, I have been a bit surprised by the different natures of Lutheran/Protestant music and Catholic music. And I have thought this: two are the main events of the Christian faith, the born of Jesus Christ (Christmas) and his death and resurrection (Holy Week and particularly Good Friday). Well, the Catholic rite (I'm Catholic) seems particularly oriented to the celebration of Christmas and the resurrection of Jesus Christ; while Protestant rite seems particularly oriented to recall Good Friday (the large number of Protestant "Passions" are a good measure). In short, while the character of the Catholicism seems marked by the "Good News" (Christ has been born o has resurrected), the Lutheran faith seems more deeply inspired by the idea of sin and punishment... I think this explains at some extent the character of Haydn's religious music and, of course, the infectious joy of Vivaldi's religious music.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on October 04, 2011, 06:55:35 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 04, 2011, 06:21:02 AM
Hi, Florestan!

This theme is very attractive to me.

Maybe you have noticed I'm very interested in Bach and North German Baroque music in general and, frequently, I have been a bit surprised by the different natures of Lutheran/Protestant music and Catholic music. And I have thought this: two are the main events of the Christian faith, the born of Jesus Christ (Christmas) and his death and resurrection (Holy Week and particularly Good Friday). Well, the Catholic rite (I'm Catholic) seems particularly oriented to the celebration of Christmas and the resurrection of Jesus Christ; while Protestant rite seems particularly oriented to recall Good Friday (the large number of Protestant "Passions" are a good measure). In short, while the character of the Catholicism seems marked by the "Good News" (Christ has been born o has resurrected), the Lutheran faith seems more deeply inspired by the idea of sin and punishment... I think this explains at some extent the character of Haydn's religious music and, of course, the infectious joy of Vivaldi's religious music.

:)

I have my own theory about the differences between Catholicism and Lutheranism / Calvinism / Protestantism (which goes much further than music :) ) and I'm going to express it in a future post. Stay tuned. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 04, 2011, 06:59:52 AM

Quote from: Florestan on October 04, 2011, 06:55:35 AM
I have my own theory about the differences between Catholicism and Lutheranism / Calvinism / Protestantism (which goes much further than music :) ) and I'm going to express it in a future post. Stay tuned. :)

I will wait reading this book:

(http://i43.tower.com/images/mm113519999/protestant-ethic-spirit-capitalism-max-weber-hardcover-cover-art.jpg)

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on October 04, 2011, 01:10:02 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 04, 2011, 06:21:02 AM
Hi, Florestan!

This theme is very attractive to me.

Maybe you have noticed I'm very interested in Bach and North German Baroque music in general and, frequently, I have been a bit surprised by the different natures of Lutheran/Protestant music and Catholic music. And I have thought this: two are the main events of the Christian faith, the born of Jesus Christ (Christmas) and his death and resurrection (Holy Week and particularly Good Friday). Well, the Catholic rite (I'm Catholic) seems particularly oriented to the celebration of Christmas and the resurrection of Jesus Christ; while Protestant rite seems particularly oriented to recall Good Friday (the large number of Protestant "Passions" are a good measure). In short, while the character of the Catholicism seems marked by the "Good News" (Christ has been born o has resurrected), the Lutheran faith seems more deeply inspired by the idea of sin and punishment... I think this explains at some extent the character of Haydn's religious music and, of course, the infectious joy of Vivaldi's religious music.

:)

This is a favorite subject of mine too, and the character of Protestant vs. Catholic music is very apparent and interesting! (I'm Catholic too)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 04, 2011, 04:30:00 PM

Quote from: Leo K on October 04, 2011, 01:10:02 PM
This is a favorite subject of mine too, and the character of Protestant vs. Catholic music is very apparent and interesting! (I'm Catholic too)

Another Papist!!! ;D

Anyway, in terms of quality we don't have anything to do against the Protestant music.

Bach alone is enough to compete with all Catholic composers of religious music.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 04, 2011, 04:32:45 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 04, 2011, 04:30:00 PM
Another Papist!!! ;D

Anyway, in terms of quality we don't have anything to do against the Protestant music.

Bach alone is enough to compete with all Catholic composers of religious music.

Sez you. :P

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 04, 2011, 04:37:16 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 04, 2011, 04:32:45 PM
Sez you. :P

Gurn - now, isn't there a rule about interjecting religion into our erudite threads? ;) ;D

For me, brought up Catholic & married a Jewish girl - we now attend a liberal Unitarian Fellowship - has not influenced my classical music enjoyments - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 04, 2011, 04:44:11 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on October 04, 2011, 04:37:16 PM
Gurn - now, isn't there a rule about interjecting religion into our erudite threads? ;) ;D

For me, brought up Catholic & married a Jewish girl - we now attend a liberal Unitarian Fellowship - has not influenced my classical music enjoyments - Dave :)

Yea verily there is, Dave, and at midnight behold, the Angel Que shall rise up and pluck the offending posts and cast them into the fiery pit of eternal damnation. Amen! :)

Well, that and Bach being in any way superior to Haydn, when we are obviously in Haydn's own Haus. Oh, the humanity! 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 04, 2011, 05:01:55 PM

Quote from: Bogey on October 02, 2011, 04:18:48 PM
Spinning Symphonies 76-78.....Fischer.

Well, Bill... ?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 04, 2011, 05:11:07 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 04, 2011, 04:44:11 PM
Well, that and Bach being in any way superior to Haydn, when we are obviously in Haydn's own Haus. Oh, the humanity! 0:)

Well, Haydn is the only composer that I love so much as Bach, but obviously there is not comparison between them as composers of religious music. For J.S. Bach writing "well-regulated music" for the Lutheran liturgy was a life goal and he composed between three and five complete cycles of cantatas for each Sunday of the whole liturgical year. Additionally, he composed passions, masses, magnificats and so, also with liturgical purposes. On the other hand, Haydn just composed a handful of (lovely) masses and other minor pieces, many of them early works. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 04, 2011, 05:15:56 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 04, 2011, 05:11:07 PM
Well, Haydn is the only composer that I love so much as Bach, but obviously there is not comparison between them as composers of religious music. For J.S. Bach writing "well-regulated music" for the Lutheran liturgy was a life goal and he composed between three and five complete cycles of cantatas for each Sunday of the whole liturgical year. Additionally, he composed passions, masses, magnificats and so, also with liturgical purposes. On the other hand, Haydn just composed a handful of (lovely) masses and other minor pieces, many of them early works. 8)

Yes, I was going solely by listen-ability... 0:)

Well, this is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who.... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 04, 2011, 05:32:18 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 04, 2011, 05:15:56 PM
Well, this is supposed to be a happy occasion. Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who.... :D

c'mon, Gurn... I was not expecting a white flag so quickly. ;D ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 04, 2011, 05:39:21 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 04, 2011, 05:32:18 PM
c'mon, Gurn... I was not expecting a white flag so quickly. ;D ;)

Nah, I was merely tweaking you anyway, since I don't really have an opinion in that category. I view sacred music just like a form of absolute music, and since I am not among those who are overwhelmed by Bach's other music, I could hardly admit to preferring his sacred music over that of my own personal musical deity. I honestly do think that it is an interesting topic for many members though, and I would encourage you to start up a thread on it. Thousands don't come here, they being repelled by Papa, who would love to discuss sacred music by denomination. Just a thought.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 04, 2011, 06:21:35 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 04, 2011, 05:39:21 PM
Nah, I was merely tweaking you anyway, since I don't really have an opinion in that category. I view sacred music just like a form of absolute music, and since I am not among those who are overwhelmed by Bach's other music, I could hardly admit to preferring his sacred music over that of my own personal musical deity. I honestly do think that it is an interesting topic for many members though, and I would encourage you to start up a thread on it. Thousands don't come here, they being repelled by Papa, who would love to discuss sacred music by denomination. Just a thought.... :)

8)

OMG, the idea of a new thread, again. ;)

No, I'm not really interested in beginning a thread about this topic, I'm just interested in this particular issue: how is possible to be, for instance, "historically informed" about Haydn's sacred music if consciously it is decided to ignore any information about his ideas on religion. He was a devout Catholic, therefore his masses and other sacred works just can be properly understood in the context of his religion and its rites. I'm not Lutheran, but I understand that I can't try to understand Bach from a Catholic perspective and I accept without any problem even his invectives against the Pope...

All great composers are usually a true forrest of symbols and the religion (when they were men of religious faith, as Bach and Haydn) is not the last source to go to decipher their symbols.

If the interpreter is not interested in religion even culturally or from an intellectual point of view, it's another thing: a legitimate decision as a free man, but a limitation in order to understand the sacred music as an object of serious study.

P.S.: When I did read "I view sacred music just like a form of absolute music", I couldn't avoid to recall the usual arguments of the anti-HIP advocates; the music as "absolute music", not related (relative music as opposed to absolute music?) to specific instruments, performing ideas, religious ideas, social ideas and so.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 04, 2011, 07:45:28 PM

So, Haydn was a Notre Dame football fan? :) Though being a practicing Catholic as well, I am with Gurn a bit in that sacred music is sacred music and I have never broken it into denominational categories. I always draw out Bach's Passions around Lent/Easter season....just works for me. However, for the most part, I never need a seasonal excuse to break out sacred music. Like Handel's Messiah....it works for me year round.

Tonight, some favorites of many here:

Baryton Trios 1-7 (No HOB numbers....they did not add them later?)-Esterhazy Ensemble

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on October 05, 2011, 01:43:32 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 04, 2011, 04:43:44 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Yh1Av-J4L._AA115_.jpg)
Alan,
I don't have that set personally, but it has gotten a lot of love here, some of it rather recently. Your description of the masses is quite congruent with my own; Haydn was irrepressible, and his sunny outlook extends even to his "solemn" music, which in some cases isn't all that solemn at all! Hard to not like that, unless you are irrepressibly solemn yourself (as many were in those days). :)

Yes indeed. 'Joyful' is the word that seems to fit best, and one hears it even in the more solemn passages. In the lighter passages, I can't imagine that 'delight' could be better expressed through music. I'm still working through them - one mass per day - and yesterday encountered the Nikolaimesse on the third CD. Now call me a flighty old fool if you will, but the Kyrie that leads it off seems to me to be one of the loveliest three-minutes' worth I've heard for some time. The soprano (Ann Hoyt) sings as a leaf might sing, carried by a gentle wind, and in particular there's a melodic development after about 1m 50s that raises the game yet again: hair stirring on the back of the neck at the unexpectedness of it. So brief - such a fragment - yet saying so much.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 05, 2011, 04:27:25 AM

Quote from: Bogey on October 04, 2011, 07:45:28 PM
So, Haydn was a Notre Dame football fan? :) Though being a practicing Catholic as well, I am with Gurn a bit in that sacred music is sacred music and I have never broken it into denominational categories. I always draw out Bach's Passions around Lent/Easter season....just works for me. However, for the most part, I never need a seasonal excuse to break out sacred music. Like Handel's Messiah....it works for me year round.

Tonight, some favorites of many here:

Baryton Trios 1-7 (No HOB numbers....they did not add them later?)-Esterhazy Ensemble

Yes, I can agree with that. Sacred music was always a stumbling block for me until I arrived at that place where I didn't relate it to anyone's religious beliefs, I only took it for itself. Better now. :)

No, Bill, the first 7 baryton trios are Hob XI:1-7. They are all in the key of A major, BTW, and were composed in 1765. Maybe they just overlooked printing the numbers?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 05, 2011, 04:32:59 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on October 05, 2011, 01:43:32 AM
Yes indeed. 'Joyful' is the word that seems to fit best, and one hears it even in the more solemn passages. In the lighter passages, I can't imagine that 'delight' could be better expressed through music. I'm still working through them - one mass per day - and yesterday encountered the Nikolaimesse on the third CD. Now call me a flighty old fool if you will, but the Kyrie that leads it off seems to me to be one of the loveliest three-minutes' worth I've heard for some time. The soprano (Ann Hoyt) sings as a leaf might sing, carried by a gentle wind, and in particular there's a melodic development after about 1m 50s that raises the game yet again: hair stirring on the back of the neck at the unexpectedness of it. So brief - such a fragment - yet saying so much.

I'm delighted that you are getting such an excellent experience from these. There are a lot of moments in Haydn that bring out the joy of life, and often times I think that what people have always called his 'musical jokes' are more just his enthusiasm for the power he wields to share his own view of life in his art. It doesn't take more than a fragment to stir the spirit. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 05, 2011, 04:39:29 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 04, 2011, 06:21:35 PM
OMG, the idea of a new thread, again. ;)

No, I'm not really interested in beginning a thread about this topic, I'm just interested in this particular issue: how is possible to be, for instance, "historically informed" about Haydn's sacred music if consciously it is decided to ignore any information about his ideas on religion. He was a devout Catholic, therefore his masses and other sacred works just can be properly understood in the context of his religion and its rites. I'm not Lutheran, but I understand that I can't try to understand Bach from a Catholic perspective and I accept without any problem even his invectives against the Pope...

All great composers are usually a true forrest of symbols and the religion (when they were men of religious faith, as Bach and Haydn) is not the last source to go to decipher their symbols.

If the interpreter is not interested in religion even culturally or from an intellectual point of view, it's another thing: a legitimate decision as a free man, but a limitation in order to understand the sacred music as an object of serious study.

P.S.: When I did read "I view sacred music just like a form of absolute music", I couldn't avoid to recall the usual arguments of the anti-HIP advocates; the music as "absolute music", not related (relative music as opposed to absolute music?) to specific instruments, performing ideas, religious ideas, social ideas and so.

:D Be bold, Antoine, thread support is une raison d'etre. Perfectly suited to your disposition, eh? :D

I'm not so sure that you are completely correct in your assessment. Intellectually, one can very much appreciate the music, and also even contextualize it without necessarily sharing in the beliefs that it is in support of. IOW, I don't have to be a Catholic to understand that and appreciate the value of music in a liturgical setting. Nor a Lutheran either. I concede it may help though, if the value comes solely from the inner relationship which a believer develops with the liturgy, so to say. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on October 05, 2011, 05:25:23 AM

Spinning the first disc of the BAT set. Very surprising to find such an early working starting from somewhere "in the middle" (I. Adagio) and in a slightly sombre mood. Is it something like a sonata da chiesa or influenced by it, perhaps?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 05, 2011, 05:34:51 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on October 05, 2011, 05:25:23 AM
Spinning the first disc of the BAT set. Very surprising to find such an early working starting from somewhere "in the middle" (I. Adagio) and in a slightly sombre mood. Is it something like a sonata da chiesa or influenced by it, perhaps?

I think that some of his early works DO show an sonata da chiesa influence. Although without knowing which one you are listening to, the Hob. numbers are such a jumble with the trios that early and late are impossible to distinguish without a scorecard. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on October 05, 2011, 05:39:31 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 05, 2011, 05:34:51 AM
I think that some of his early works DO show an sonata da chiesa influence. Although without knowing which one you are listening to, the Hob. numbers are such a jumble with the trios that early and late are impossible to distinguish without a scorecard. :)

8)

Just as trio No. 2 (C1) started, I noticed No. 1 has just three movements. Oh, and I was referring to the one (Hob XV: 37) in F major (I just realised I had the disc number and not the trio number in my earlier post :-[).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 05, 2011, 06:44:31 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on October 05, 2011, 05:39:31 AM
Just as trio No. 2 (C1) started, I noticed No. 1 has just three movements. Oh, and I was referring to the one (Hob XV: 37) in F major (I just realised I had the disc number and not the trio number in my earlier post :-[).

Ah, Hob 37 in F is called "Trio #1" by Landon, who dates it to 1757. So, the first one! Yeah, that's early. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on October 05, 2011, 02:39:52 PM

What an interesting and fascinating disk!

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Lz67fqmW3Ks/TlvfVZc_G8I/AAAAAAAAMgs/WTG3_zLtTPU/s1600/haydn+portada.PNG)

I just listened to the first work on this disk, with an instrument hitherto unknown to me, the "Lire Organizzate"...an interesting commission that came to Haydn in the late 1780s from Naples...fascinating sound!

:o 8)

I imagine discussion on Haydn's Lira works have been already discussed, but here is what it looks like (in case not):

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-artaoK6BHAA/TXsz0Xxv9AI/AAAAAAAAGak/m2fgHaDEYHc/s1600/lira-organizatta.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 05, 2011, 02:56:22 PM

Leo,
Yeah, isn't that cool? We have discussed it a bit (though nowhere near as much as I've listened to it). Some much less-heard music there too, and notice that there is a notturno that uses the lira (#32) and another that uses the London version of a couple years later (#27). Nice chance to contrast the 2 versions. I think this is a well-conceived and executed concept disk. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 05, 2011, 03:42:18 PM

Quote from: Leo K on October 05, 2011, 02:39:52 PM
What an interesting and fascinating disk!

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Lz67fqmW3Ks/TlvfVZc_G8I/AAAAAAAAMgs/WTG3_zLtTPU/s1600/haydn+portada.PNG)

I just listened to the first work on this disk, with an instrument hitherto unknown to me, the "Lire Organizzate"...an interesting commission that came to Haydn in the late 1780s from Naples...fascinating sound!

I imagine discussion on Haydn's Lira works have been already discussed, but here is what it looks like (in case not):

Leo - not sure if you have explored the 'Old Musical Instruments' thread yet - but please Check HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11638.100.html) (start at the bottom of the page & go to the next) - plenty of previous discussion on this instrument and these works - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 05, 2011, 06:13:49 PM

As many of you have noticed, I have taken a shine to Haydn's songs & Lieder lately. One thing that all my performances have in common is female voice. Seems as though men just don't sing Haydn, this despite the fact that he himself had a well-above average singing voice, which was how he got into music to start with, and he often performed to his own keyboard accompaniment.

Today I finally got an exceptional disk that breaks that mold;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnGriffettTraceycover.jpg)

James Griffett has a lovely tenor, a bit deeper and richer than some, and is truly a fine singer. Bradford Tracey is a very supportive accompanist, and he is playing a very nice sounding 1798 Broadwood, which can scarcely be more appropriate for these tunes, written as they were in the mid-'90's for a London audience. The songs include all 12 'Original Canzonettas' along with 2 others (in English) that were also influenced by Anne Hunter, 'The Spirit's Song' and 'O Tuneful Voice'. Very satisfactory performances. :)

If you want to hear a different sort of take on these classics, I highly recommend this disk. It will stand proudly along with the great number of soprano versions as one man's own POV. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on October 06, 2011, 07:34:00 AM

Thanks for the review Gurn! Me want! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2011, 07:38:51 AM

Quote from: Leo K on October 06, 2011, 07:34:00 AM
Thanks for the review Gurn! Me want! :)

Got it brand new on AMP (Classical Music Superstore, my current fave vendor) for $4. Only a couple months ago you had to get it as an import and it was around $20, so something has changed! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on October 06, 2011, 09:49:58 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 06, 2011, 07:38:51 AM
Got it brand new on AMP (Classical Music Superstore, my current fave vendor) for $4. Only a couple months ago you had to get it as an import and it was around $20, so something has changed! :)

8)

Great price! That store is my fave vender too :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 06, 2011, 09:57:43 AM

Just purchased this on Amazon MP for fairly cheap...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51S3CQT9RFL._SS400_.jpg)

Anner Bylsma (Cello),
Vera Beths (Violin),
Robert Levin (Fortepiano)

It was recommended on ArkivMusic, this will be my first collection of Trios, any other recommendations on trios or other chamber pieces? Excluding SQs and Piano Sonatas for I have many of them and want to venture away from them for a bit.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2011, 10:07:57 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 06, 2011, 09:57:43 AM
Just purchased this on Amazon MP for fairly cheap...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51S3CQT9RFL._SS400_.jpg)

Anner Bylsma (Cello),
Vera Beths (Violin),
Robert Levin (Fortepiano)

It was recommended on ArkivMusic, this will be my first collection of Trios, any other recommendations on trios or other chamber pieces? Excluding SQs and Piano Sonatas for I have many of them and want to venture away from them for a bit.

That disk rocks, Greg. It was my first PI version of these works, opened my eyes to the possibilities. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: springrite on October 06, 2011, 10:11:50 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 06, 2011, 10:07:57 AM
That disk rocks, Greg. It was my first PI version of these works, opened my eyes to the possibilities. :)

8)

I assume PI means Period Instrument and not Politically Incorrect. ;D

I have that one and the BAT one. Both are good in their own ways. Yes, the possibilities.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 06, 2011, 10:26:25 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 06, 2011, 10:07:57 AM
That disk rocks, Greg. It was my first PI version of these works, opened my eyes to the possibilities. :)

8)

Quote from: springrite on October 06, 2011, 10:11:50 AM
I assume PI means Period Instrument and not Politically Incorrect. ;D

I have that one and the BAT one. Both are good in their own ways. Yes, the possibilities.

Great! I love getting approval from the Haydn Haus-mates! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 06, 2011, 10:47:03 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 06, 2011, 07:38:51 AM
(Classical Music Superstore, my current fave vendor)

Side note--CMS is, if not Arkivmusic, tied into Arkivmusic. I've ordered one thing from them, and on the day I received it also received some CDs I ordered from Arkivmusic. Both packages had the same return address in Franklin, TN--all the way down to the same suite number.

And very oddly, shipment of the CMS order was delayed a whole week for no apparent reason and no explanation offered (actually, they lied about the ship date, which I found about when I saw the postmark, a whole week after the date they claimed to have shipped it)--very unlike Arkiv itself, which is usually the fastest vendor of any in getting stuff to me (unless they ship from Canada).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2011, 10:57:37 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 06, 2011, 10:47:03 AM
Side note--CMS is, if not Arkivmusic, tied into Arkivmusic. I've ordered one thing from them, and on the day I received it also received some CDs I ordered from Arkivmusic. Both packages had the same return address in Franklin, TN--all the way down to the same suite number.

And very oddly, shipment of the CMS order was delayed a whole week for no apparent reason and no explanation offered (actually, they lied about the ship date, which I found about when I saw the postmark, a whole week after the date they claimed to have shipped it)--very unlike Arkiv itself, which is usually the fastest vendor of any in getting stuff to me (unless they ship from Canada).

I have always had head-spinningly fast service from both those vendors. I am going to make public my speculation finally, that all have been awaiting for years; I believe that Arkiv is an consortium of many vendors, CMS included, who fulfill an order however it takes to get it done. As opposed to being a standalone company, that is. I also believe that CMS is the retail front of Naxos USA. Well, enough rambling, that's just what I think. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on October 06, 2011, 11:01:47 AM

I discovered that Spotify has the Dorati big box of Haydn operas (listening right now), with one track from Armida missing, but other than that, all disks complete. Which is a nice way to listen to these works before spending on that cube.

I also join the applause for this disk

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 06, 2011, 09:57:43 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51S3CQT9RFL._SS400_.jpg)

A good one.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 06, 2011, 06:32:31 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 05, 2011, 04:39:29 AM
I'm not so sure that you are completely correct in your assessment. Intellectually, one can very much appreciate the music, and also even contextualize it without necessarily sharing in the beliefs that it is in support of. IOW, I don't have to be a Catholic to understand that and appreciate the value of music in a liturgical setting. Nor a Lutheran either. I concede it may help though, if the value comes solely from the inner relationship which a believer develops with the liturgy, so to say. :)

Hi, Gurn. I see I expressed very badly my point of view. I thought I had said something quite simple, but apparently it looks as if I had said exactly the opposite of what I think.

Well, I will see if I get something better this time:

1.- To be a believer is not necessary in order to know what a specific religion says about a specific issue. It's not necessary to be a believer to know something about a particular religious belief. A few steps further my seat I have several volumes about history of religions and religious beliefs written by Mircea Eliade. Mircea Eliade was a man interested in religious beliefs, but I don't know if he practiced any religion at all. I mean it's possible knowing and writing on religion without doing apology of religion. I can distinguish between a belief and the knowledge about that belief.

2.- If Haydn was a practicing Catholic and Bach a devout Lutheran, I think those facts shouldn't be ignored to interpret (particularly) their sacred works. Their religious ideas are "religious", but still a part of their concept of the world and probably not the least important part.

3.- You don't need to be a Catholic or a Lutheran to learn important things about the probable ideas and beliefs of a particular composer when he wrote a particular work for a particular religious festivity (Haydn's Seven Last Words, for instance?). I'm not Lutheran, but the knowledge of the Lutheran Liturgical calendar has been extremely useful to me, as would be great to know the reading of a particular Sunday to understand the sense of the cantata intended for that Sunday.

4.- It's perfectly possible to enjoy music without this kind of knowledge, but sometimes this kind of knowledge enlarges our enjoyment, for instance, when a particular theological knowledge is important to illuminate a musical decision what, for instance, it's usual in Bach's sacred music.

5.- Absolute music doesn't exist. We, men, are always tied to something, particularly our ideas and beliefs (and not just religious ideas, of course).

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 06, 2011, 07:10:22 PM

Gurn, did you get/receive those cheap Seasons conducted by Kuijken, offered at the AMP? I'm curious. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on October 07, 2011, 12:02:50 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 06, 2011, 06:32:31 PM
4.- It's perfectly possible to enjoy music without this kind of knowledge, but sometimes this kind of knowledge enlarges our enjoyment, for instance, when a particular theological knowledge is important to illuminate a musical decision what, for instance, it's usual in Bach's sacred music.

5.- Absolute music doesn't exist. We, men, are always tied to something, particularly our ideas and beliefs (and not just religious ideas, of course).

The same idea as your no.5 applies to abstract paintings too. 'Pure' painting (in the sense that someone like Patrick Heron meant it) is an unachievable idea, I think.

But to illustrate your no.4, one only has to consider the effect of knowing the title of a piece to realise the influence that extra-musical ideas have, both on us as listeners, and on how we might regard the intentions of the composer. The moment a piece is entitled 'The Planets' or 'Scheherezade', the composer is giving us a signal that will change the way we receive the music. (Even if we don't consciously acknowledge it, it will).

In terms of sacred music there's a difference though (as you point out), between composing (or listening to) music associated with an idea, and composing (or listening to) music associated with an idea that one actually believes. But even then, we can approach a Mass (either as composer or listener) as a celebration of a Myth, whether or not we have a literal belief in the Myth; and if we do, I can't see how that can fail to influence the way the music is composed and/or received. Listening to Haydn's Masses (as I have been doing recently), I'd find it difficult to believe that it was a purely musical joy he's expressing. That brings a different 'flavour' to the enjoyment of the music - at least, it does for me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 07, 2011, 12:28:22 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on October 07, 2011, 12:02:50 AM
The same idea as your no.5 applies to abstract paintings too. 'Pure' painting (in the sense that someone like Patrick Heron meant it) is an unachievable idea, I think.

But to illustrate your no.4, one only has to consider the effect of knowing the title of a piece to realise the influence that extra-musical ideas have, both on us as listeners, and on how we might regard the intentions of the composer. The moment a piece is entitled 'The Planets' or 'Scheherezade', the composer is giving us a signal that will change the way we receive the music. (Even if we don't consciously acknowledge it, it will).

In terms of sacred music there's a difference though (as you point out), between composing (or listening to) music associated with an idea, and composing (or listening to) music associated with an idea that one actually believes. But even then, we can approach a Mass (either as composer or listener) as a celebration of a Myth, whether or not we have a literal belief in the Myth; and if we do, I can't see how that can fail to influence the way the music is composed and/or received. Listening to Haydn's Masses (as I have been doing recently), I'd find it difficult to believe that it was a purely musical joy he's expressing. That brings a different 'flavour' to the enjoyment of the music - at least, it does for me.

Very nice answer for what can be a sensitive subject.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 07, 2011, 04:12:16 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 06, 2011, 07:10:22 PM
Gurn, did you get/receive those cheap Seasons conducted by Kuijken, offered at the AMP? I'm curious. :)

Haven't received yet, although I got an email that they've shipped. Maybe be there this evening... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 07, 2011, 04:45:02 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 06, 2011, 07:10:22 PM
Gurn, did you get/receive those cheap Seasons conducted by Kuijken, offered at the AMP? I'm curious. :)

Antoine - I ordered a 'used' copy of the above about the same time the discussion was active (arrived a few days ago) - was under $2 (plus the $3 S/H) - was a 'cutout' and came w/ the top of the jewel box broken (simple fix since I have plenty of 'spare parts' around) - but MOST importantly the discs were pristine (must have been played just once if at all?) - Kuijken and his band are excellent - will need to re-listen to the singers. Of course w/ this bargain re-packaging, the liner notes are nearly non-existent w/ no texts (but I'll probably buy the Jacobs recording if the price comes down?) - my only other minor complaint is that one needs to crank up the volume to really appreciate the entire performance - for the price, a great deal! Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 08, 2011, 01:01:12 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on October 07, 2011, 12:02:50 AM
The same idea as your no.5 applies to abstract paintings too. 'Pure' painting (in the sense that someone like Patrick Heron meant it) is an unachievable idea, I think.

But to illustrate your no.4, one only has to consider the effect of knowing the title of a piece to realise the influence that extra-musical ideas have, both on us as listeners, and on how we might regard the intentions of the composer. The moment a piece is entitled 'The Planets' or 'Scheherezade', the composer is giving us a signal that will change the way we receive the music. (Even if we don't consciously acknowledge it, it will).

In terms of sacred music there's a difference though (as you point out), between composing (or listening to) music associated with an idea, and composing (or listening to) music associated with an idea that one actually believes. But even then, we can approach a Mass (either as composer or listener) as a celebration of a Myth, whether or not we have a literal belief in the Myth; and if we do, I can't see how that can fail to influence the way the music is composed and/or received. Listening to Haydn's Masses (as I have been doing recently), I'd find it difficult to believe that it was a purely musical joy he's expressing. That brings a different 'flavour' to the enjoyment of the music - at least, it does for me.

I totally agree with your comment, Elgarian. For some reason it recalled to me this Borges' joke: "Christianism is a collection of Jewish beliefs subordinated to Plato and Aristotle." :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on October 08, 2011, 07:55:40 AM

Right now, I'm enjoying Haydn's very impressive 'Armida' since aquiring Dorati's recordings of Haydn's operas:

(http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B00000E4UA.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)

Haydn's operas (this is my second one to hear) are very enjoyable! I love his vocal works now!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 08, 2011, 08:00:29 AM

Quote from: Leo K on October 08, 2011, 07:55:40 AM
Right now, I'm enjoying Haydn's very impressive 'Armida' since aquiring Dorati's recordings of Haydn's operas:

(http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/B00000E4UA.03.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)

Haydn's operas (this is my second one to hear) are very enjoyable! I love his vocal works now!

8)

Great idea that, Leo. I have that same recording, but it is one of the few I haven't listened to yet. It'll be a nice way to spend a Saturday evening. Haydn expressed regrets in his later years that he hadn't spent more time writing vocal music, he felt that it was his forte. I think it is a good balance, to my taste anyway. Lots of vocal, but balanced out with plenty of instrumental too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on October 08, 2011, 08:13:00 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 08, 2011, 08:00:29 AM
Great idea that, Leo. I have that same recording, but it is one of the few I haven't listened to yet. It'll be a nice way to spend a Saturday evening. Haydn expressed regrets in his later years that he hadn't spent more time writing vocal music, he felt that it was his forte. I think it is a good balance, to my taste anyway. Lots of vocal, but balanced out with plenty of instrumental too. :)

8)

I too believe Haydn achieved a good balance between vocal and instrumental works. As much as I love his vocal music, thank god we have all those symphonies, quartets, sonatas, etc!

;D

I like the wind writing in Haydn's Armida :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 08, 2011, 08:16:51 AM

Quote from: Leo K on October 08, 2011, 08:13:00 AM

I like the wind writing in Haydn's Armida :)

Oh, I see what you're doing now; well, I don't have time to spend the afternoon listening to operas. Away with you, evil taunter! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 08, 2011, 08:17:33 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 08, 2011, 08:00:29 AM
Great idea that, Leo. I have that same recording, but it is one of the few I haven't listened to yet. It'll be a nice way to spend a Saturday evening. Haydn expressed regrets in his later years that he hadn't spent more time writing vocal music, he felt that it was his forte. I think it is a good balance, to my taste anyway. Lots of vocal, but balanced out with plenty of instrumental too. :)

8)

One thing I have always liked in Haydn is that, apparently, he spent very few hours thinking in posterity. His duties were so many that he had no time for those ideas. But apparently again during his last years, when London and all of that, he began to think: well, maybe my output won't survive because I have composed too much instrumental music and the great music, the music for posterity is vocal music. That would explain, for instance, a monumental attempt as the Creation. But here Haydn was wrong for one time because for the two coming centuries the real music was the instrumental music, under the form of symphonies, concertos and sonatas. Well, two of three (I mean symphonies and sonatas) is not a bad score for our "Papa", isn't it?

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 08, 2011, 08:23:18 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 08, 2011, 08:17:33 AM
One thing I have always liked in Haydn is that, apparently, he spent very few hours thinking in posterity. His duties were so many that he had no time for those ideas. But apparently again during his last years, when London and all of that, he began to think: well, maybe my output won't survive because I have composed too much instrumental music and the great music, the music for posterity is vocal music. That would explain, for instance, a monumental attempt as the Creation. But here Haydn was wrong for one time because for the two coming centuries the real music was the instrumental music, under the form of symphonies, concertos and sonatas. Well, two of three (I mean symphonies and sonatas) is not a bad score for our "Papa", isn't it? :)

From all I have read, Antoine, you are exactly right. He was reacting to the way things were in his time, and in the modern parlance, he would have looked at the growth of instrumental music in the 50 years after his death and said "whoa, I didn't see that coming! :o ". So yes, pioneering without being aware of it, which is the greatest style one can hope for; being a true model even after death. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on October 08, 2011, 08:44:46 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 08, 2011, 08:16:51 AM
Oh, I see what you're doing now; well, I don't have time to spend the afternoon listening to operas. Away with you, evil taunter! :D

8)

Hahaha! ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on October 09, 2011, 03:21:50 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on October 04, 2011, 12:30:15 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Yh1Av-J4L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I bought this set on an experimental whim a couple of years ago while on holiday, and was surprised to find how delightfully easy Haydn's masses were to listen to. Not light, exactly, but I could understand why, in his day, some of his masses were not regarded as serious enough to be sacred. Anyway, on that holiday I worked my way through the box - a different mass every day - and was well-pleased with my purchase.

Yet somehow the box stayed on the shelf after I carried it home, and only in the last couple of days have I blown the dust off it. And again, I'm so very pleasantly surprised by the exquisite character of what I'm hearing. I've no basis for comparison with other recordings, but I've no reason to question the performances - some lovely singing, and a good crisp period sound. Do other folk have this box? Any comments?

Synchronicity! While I was in the shop picking up the Immerseel LvB, and some Beck, Richter & Stamitz pere, I saw this on the shelf, threw Protestant discipline to the winds and bought it. I have the Stabat Mater on right now and its lightness and prettiness have, temporarily no doubt, banished this ugly world's cares from my tired old soul. Delight! Delight! And what is wrong with that?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 09, 2011, 04:23:36 AM

A number of you seem to be enjoying this one:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Yh1Av-J4L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I have long had this one on my wishlist (and appears to be OP, but will hopefully return soon):
[asin]B0000C41W5[/asin]

How do they compare? All the enthusiasm makes me want to run out and get the Naxos (if only I didn't have myself on rations this month :))!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on October 09, 2011, 04:52:16 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on October 09, 2011, 03:21:50 AM
Synchronicity! While I was in the shop picking up the Immerseel LvB, and some Beck, Richter & Stamitz pere, I saw this on the shelf, threw Protestant discipline to the winds and bought it.

Never look a synchronistic gift horse in the mouth, is what I say.

QuoteI have the Stabat Mater on right now and its lightness and prettiness have, temporarily no doubt, banished this ugly world's cares from my tired old soul. Delight! Delight! And what is wrong with that?

From the Stabat Mater onwards, I think it gets better and better. If you like what you've heard so far, you're in for a great time. The soprano - what's her name? - Ann Hoyt: her singing has the lightness of a summer breeze.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on October 09, 2011, 11:43:11 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 09, 2011, 04:23:36 AM
A number of you seem to be enjoying this one:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Yh1Av-J4L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I have long had this one on my wishlist (and appears to be OP, but will hopefully return soon):
[asin]B0000C41W5[/asin]

How do they compare? All the enthusiasm makes me want to run out and get the Naxos (if only I didn't have myself on rations this month :))!

This isn't going to be terrifically helpful, but I' remember being disappointed by the Gardiner - I don't know why - and I think I've listened to it all of twice. The Naxos box, which I'm still exploring, is fabulous.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 09, 2011, 01:12:58 PM

In the spinner:

Trumpet Concerto HOB VIIE:1
Horn Concerto No. 1 HOB VIII:3
Horn Concerto No. 2 HOB VIID:4

Alan Stringer Trumpet
Hermann Baumann Horn

ASMF
Marriner (Trumpet Concerto)
Brown (Horn Concertos)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 09, 2011, 02:09:40 PM

Rolling No. 3 out from this set:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4172NMjsXWL._AA300_.jpg)

I have seen the movie Eroica....enjoyed it. However, wanted to know what you know about LvB's and Haydn's actual meetings with one another. Did Haydn actually hear the premier of this No. 3.....was he actually quoted? What is fact and what is legend?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 09, 2011, 02:38:46 PM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 09, 2011, 04:23:36 AM
A number of you seem to be enjoying this one:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Yh1Av-J4L._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51bH1nlDoWL._SS400_.jpg)

I have long had this one on my wishlist (and appears to be OP, but will hopefully return soon):
[asin]B0000C41W5[/asin]

How do they compare? All the enthusiasm makes me want to run out and get the Naxos (if only I didn't have myself on rations this month :))!

Neal - don't know if you have any of these masses; if not, then I would strongly suggest getting the Naxos box - great value & excellent performances; now I also have the 'late masses' w/ Gardiner & Weil - the latter a new purchase, but have not done any comparisons - I got Gardiner when a member of the old BMG Club for very little but seems to be OOP; now the Weil, a new purchase is outstanding to my ears! Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 09, 2011, 02:43:45 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on October 09, 2011, 02:38:46 PM
now the Weil, a new purchase is outstanding to my ears!

Hmm.. hhmmm. Ah, you like then? The Gurnatron 5500^TM comes through again. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 09, 2011, 02:52:12 PM

Quote from: Bogey on October 09, 2011, 02:09:40 PM
Rolling No. 3 out from this set:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4172NMjsXWL._AA300_.jpg)

I have seen the movie Eroica....enjoyed it. However, wanted to know what you know about LvB's and Haydn's actual meetings with one another. Did Haydn actually hear the premier of this No. 3.....was he actually quoted? What is fact and what is legend?

Bill,
I assume you are talking about this little gem?

QuoteAfter hearing the 'Eroica', Haydn is alleged to have said, 'music now will never be the same'!

Karl Geiringer, in his (modern) biography of Haydn (A Creative Life in Music), and in The Oxford Composer Companion to Haydn by David Wyn Jones, there is no mention whatsoever of this tale. Not even to debunk it. My guess is that it is one of those things that really sounds like a great story, so it will be retold even if merely apocryphal.

However, that being said, Haydn should have said it. It's true, after all. I just don't thing he was that prescient. :D

8)

EDIT:
PS - This page from The Raptus Association site (if you are a Beethoven fan, you really should know this site!!) discusses the 2 premiers of Eroica. Haydn is again unmentioned. :-\

http://raptusassociation.org/eroicaeauffuehrungsgesch.html

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 09, 2011, 02:59:47 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 09, 2011, 02:43:45 PM
Hmm.. hhmmm. Ah, you like then? The Gurnatron 5500^TM comes through again. :)

Hi Gurn - yes, sir! :)

But will have to re-listen to the Gardiner - it's been a while! Dave

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 09, 2011, 03:04:28 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on October 09, 2011, 02:59:47 PM
Hi Gurn - yes, sir! :)

But will have to re-listen to the Gardiner - it's been a while! Dave

As much as I like the Gardiner, I think upon re-listening that you will agree that it seems to be being readied for Westminster Abbey (or at least Winchester Cathedral). Weil is playing for a chapel packed full with 30 listeners. Only one is historically accurate... 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 09, 2011, 10:39:10 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 09, 2011, 03:04:28 PM
As much as I like the Gardiner, I think upon re-listening that you will agree that it seems to be being readied for Westminster Abbey (or at least Winchester Cathedral). Weil is playing for a chapel packed full with 30 listeners. Only one is historically accurate... 0:)

8)

Accurate Schmakurate! :) I want my masses big with bombast. I want the thunder and lighting to be smoking through my speakers! I want, I want, I want to be a lumberjack!!!!! :-*

PS: will look at Weil too.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 10, 2011, 04:29:27 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 09, 2011, 10:39:10 PM
Accurate Schmakurate! :) I want my masses big with bombast. I want the thunder and lighting to be smoking through my speakers! I want, I want, I want to be a lumberjack!!!!! :-*
PS: will look at Weil too.

;D That's fine by me. As I mentioned, I like the Gardiner too, they are fine, large performances. It all depends what one is looking for, I think.

Ooh, you're so manly! Tell me, do you cut down trees? :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on October 10, 2011, 05:17:45 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 10, 2011, 04:29:27 AM
Tell me, do you cut down trees? :D

8)

And wear high heels? They see quite a bit of that in the mountains of British Columbia, or so I hear.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 10, 2011, 05:41:31 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 10, 2011, 04:29:27 AM
Ooh, you're so manly! Tell me, do you cut down trees? :D

8)

Quote from: chasmaniac on October 10, 2011, 05:17:45 AM
And wear high heels? They see quite a bit of that in the mountains of British Columbia, or so I hear.

Only when I'm looking for wild flowers! And I can't wait to go shopping on Wednesday...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 10, 2011, 05:42:31 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 09, 2011, 10:39:10 PM
Accurate Schmakurate! :) I want my masses big with bombast. I want the thunder and lighting to be smoking through my speakers! I want, I want, I want to be a lumberjack!!!!!

If you want the most manly masses, Harnoncourt is your...man ;D

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/harnoncourtlumberjack.jpg)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 10, 2011, 05:44:46 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 10, 2011, 05:42:31 AM
If you want the most manly masses, Harnoncourt is your...man ;D

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/harnoncourtlumberjack.jpg)

Sarge

Now that is a great picture!! ;D I tip my cap to you sir!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 10, 2011, 06:46:56 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 10, 2011, 05:42:31 AM
If you want the most manly masses, Harnoncourt is your...man ;D

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/harnoncourtlumberjack.jpg)

Sarge

;D Y'all 'r' a hoot, Sarge. A talented hoot, of course, but a hoot nonetheless. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on October 12, 2011, 10:24:21 AM

I hereby declare Richard Brautigam's Haydn sonata set my favorite sonata cycle! Wow! A stunning set!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on October 12, 2011, 10:34:22 AM

Ronald will be disappointed to hear that, Leo. ;)

Listening to the 'Sonata for violin and piano, with cello guy occasionally bowing a few lines' (Hob. XV/31). I wanted to listen to something to rather cheerful before going to bed and chose this one since the CD cover confidently states that it begins in E-flat major in three different languages.* ::) Well, the second movement is quite different compared to the first and is jolly enough for me.

*Truth: E-flat minor.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2011, 10:38:31 AM

Quote from: Leo K on October 12, 2011, 10:24:21 AM
I hereby declare Richard Brautigam's Haydn sonata set my favorite sonata cycle! Wow! A stunning set!

Yes, R(onald) is nearly untouchable, especially in the late works. There is a demand there for power to go along with musicality, and that plays to his strong suit. My only problem with him comes as you work back through time to the ones written for the harpsichord and clavichord, where his strong suit (and his instrument) is less suited to the music. No knock on him, of course, it is hard to find anyone who can play music written over nearly 50 years of time with the development of instruments and musical ideas, and be equally strong in the entire spectrum. I note that some who excel in the earlier works are left gasping at Hob XVI:52.... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2011, 10:40:42 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on October 12, 2011, 10:34:22 AM
Ronald will be disappointed to hear that, Leo. ;)

Listening to the 'Sonata for violin and piano, with cello guy occasionally bowing a few lines' (Hob. XV/31). I wanted to listen to something to rather cheerful before going to bed and chose this one since the CD cover confidently states that it begins in E-flat major in three different languages.* ::) Well, the second movement is quite different compared to the first and is jolly enough for me.

*Truth: E-flat minor.

:D Yes, not a whole lot of works written in eb, I suspect they must have thought it a typo. :D Nice piece though, haven't figured out the Jacob's Ladder reference, although I can live with that. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on October 12, 2011, 11:09:41 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on October 12, 2011, 10:34:22 AM
Ronald will be disappointed to hear that,

Haha! I always make that mistake! :)

@Gurn, I have to admit, I kinda prefer Haydn's early sonatas on the fortepiano! :-X :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2011, 11:11:55 AM

Quote from: Leo K on October 12, 2011, 11:09:41 AM
@Gurn, I have to admit, I kinda prefer Haydn's early sonatas on the fortepiano! :-X :)

Yeah, I used to also, until I went through an extended period of cembalo and clavier. Hard to go back now. Which is not to say that they don't sound just fine, I just think that what we get ourselves used to becomes our new ideal. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on October 12, 2011, 11:21:50 AM

Quote from: Leo K on October 12, 2011, 11:09:41 AM
Haha! I always make that mistake! :)

I'd incline to that mistake because of the writer, Richard Brautigan (Trout Fishing in America, &c.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on October 12, 2011, 01:40:49 PM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 12, 2011, 11:21:50 AM
I'd incline to that mistake because of the writer, Richard Brautigan (Trout Fishing in America, &c.)

Ah ha! That must be why! I happen to have Richard Brautigan's work on my bookshelf :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 12, 2011, 05:19:00 PM

Thought I would share this with the Haus-mates.
The real treat is at 3:45 when they replay the finale for an encore.

http://www.youtube.com/v/WlURvraEmeY

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2011, 06:30:32 PM

That's excellent, Greg!

I may have mentioned here before, but I don't mind; this was my very first Haydn symphonies CD, and it remains to this day one of my very favorites. It is cool to actually see it performed. :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnBernstein8892.jpg)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
The Gamerith Consort - Hob 15_15 Trio in G for Fortepiano, Flute & Cello 1st mvmt - Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on October 13, 2011, 11:41:28 AM

My first exposure to Haydn was in high school orchestra (1988) playing the first movement of the 'London' no.101! (I played in the 2nd violin section) Before that I'd only heard his name in the Mozart literature, so playing a bit of the 'London' was very interesting :) Somehow the music grew on me each time I played it! Although we as players were limited, it was fun to play :) the last time I played it, was at a 'Big 9' concert, where nine schools met at a school and played one after the other. Well, while playing Haydn at that concert, the music suddenly blazed into my soul! Soon after I bought my first Haydn cassette, but I can't remember the artist, only what the tape looked like!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on October 15, 2011, 12:49:47 PM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VMS5SAR7L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I still love my Haydn Trio box from the Van Swieten Trio. I go back to it at some point every year and continue to relish the richness and vast musical knowledge incorporated into these works.

8)

I really enjoyed coming across an excellant review of this set, on Amazon:

Quote

By David Bryson

In a letter Brahms says something to the effect `Nobody seems to understand Haydn nowadays. For years he gave us all our music'. Whatever precisely Brahms meant, it seems to me that the complete transformation in the idiom of music that made the music of Mozart and everyone since so astoundingly different from the music of Bach was Haydn's achievement, and his alone. Relics of the baroque manner are absent from Haydn's own style virtually from the outset. Any that remain relate to his treatment of the bass in ensembles, and that matter has a particular bearing on Haydn's piano trios, not so much in themselves as in the way they are perceived.

Assuming for the moment what I shall try to explain in that respect, the set under review will be hard to surpass as `record of the decade' whatever marvels await us between now and the end of 2010. For comprehension of Haydn's style and its development, for loving, inspired and meticulous musicianship, for the ability to recognise and convey greatness when they find it, these artists deserve the most extravagant praise. For quality in the recorded sound, for thought and imagination in the production, for helpful and illuminating comment, and for sheer brilliant value, this set deserves hardly less. It comes compactly packaged in ten numbered envelopes averaging an hour's music apiece. Box and envelopes are of strong cardboard, but the discs can be difficult to extract when new, so be careful with them. There are 40 trios plus (on disc 5) a selection of individual movements where the music is probably by Haydn but the arrangements for trio not. Attribution to Haydn is probably not completely certain in some of the earliest trios either, but he becomes unmistakable before long, and none of the music is less than attractive. The 3 trios on disc 6 have flute rather than violin according to Haydn's expressed preference, and Marion Moonen uses a wooden flute. There are two violinists and two cellists sharing the work, but the fortepianos (several are used) are played throughout the entire 10 hours of music by the formidable Bart van Oort, who contributes one of the admirable liner-notes into the bargain. The level of musical insight shown by the entire ensemble I have already alluded to, but van Oort is a player to hear just for his playing, turning out trills to rival Gould himself.

Serkin said that that Haydn's trios are a musical corpus to rival Mozart's piano concertos, and that a life devoted to their study alone would be well spent. He might have recorded some of them in that case, mightn't he? The statement is not much of an exaggeration in my opinion. Broadly speaking, one senses Haydn's style developing as the 10 discs progress, the adagio of the F# minor trio on disc 9 is better known as the sublime slow movement of the wonderful symphony 102, and the 4 trios occupying the last disc, particularly the C major, are absolute belters worthy to stand with the greatest of his piano sonatas. One can probably enjoy them best without reading too much about them, as enlightenment is in short supply in what one reads. Tovey finds `strange inability to refrain from writing down in the piano part everything that the other instruments have to say.' This I quote to illustrate the pitfalls of dealing in generalisation. There is more doubling between the violin and the piano's right hand than in later styles, but as a general characterisation of what you can hear with your own ears it is nonsense. The really interesting issue concerns the cello. Genuine emancipation of the cello in ensembles with piano came only with Mozart, although Haydn had got there in his quartets and symphonies. We may therefore choose to believe, as Tovey seems to, that this composer, the most thoroughgoing revolutionary, in his civilised way, that music has yet seen, was incapable of advancing in his trios to the treatment of the cello that he had achieved elsewhere; or we can believe something more probable. Cellists of the calibre necessary for Haydn's symphonies and quartets were probably still thin on the ground. The instrument never had music worthy of it until Bach, inspired by the playing of Linike, wrote his cello suites. In Haydn's time, as in Bach's, it was probably still embraced by players of little attainment or promise, and simple cello parts in piano `trios' were a way of giving such performers an opportunity to participate with their more gifted colleagues. It would take little to arrange Haydn's trios as `violin sonatas', but it seems to me that Haydn - or you or I come to that - can perceive the benefit of cello sound to the overall effect, even if Professor Tovey does not.

The one thing I miss from this wonderful set is a clear account of the dates of the trios. I am not conversant with the Hoboken numbering-system, but it is not followed strictly here. Roughly, I would guess that the sequence of the works over these 10 discs follows the sequence of their composition. However there may be producer's or presentational reasons for departing from such rigid ordering, although I can't imagine any such reason for presenting the 3 flute trios, all on the same disc, in the (Hoboken) sequence 16/15/17.

You may be aware that Haydn also wrote trios for baryton viola and cello, of which I own a marvellous complete set on vinyl, not now available on cd so far as I know, but there seem to be others of comparable quality. Those could well be another treat if you are unfamiliar with this side of the master's output. In the short term, there are these trios to get acquainted with if we thought we knew Haydn but were actually missing something important.

Brilliant Classics indeed.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2011, 01:03:17 PM

Quote from: Leo K on October 15, 2011, 12:49:47 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VMS5SAR7L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I still love my Haydn Trio box from the Van Swieten Trio. I go back to it at some point every year and continue to relish the richness and vast musical knowledge incorporated into these works.

8)

I really enjoyed coming across an excellent review of this set, on Amazon:

In fact, our conversation the other day had me pull out my Van Sweiten this afternoon. It is delightfully well played. Goes without saying that the music won me over years ago, so it only ever comes down to having a disk in the player that is suited to my taste. And these are, of course. :)

Not sure about the reviewer's dating problems. It seems perfectly logical to me that proper sequence is like this:

1 34 35 37 38 40 41 C1 36 f1 39 2 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 32 24 25 26 31 27 28 29 30

Doesn't it to you? :D

Just as an aside, 15, 16 & 17 (the flute trios) go so well on a disk together, not from convenience (which he seems to imply) but because they actually were composed and published as a group. Probably just as well. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Van Swieten Trio - Hob 15_13 Trio in c for Keyboard & Strings 1st mvmt - Andante

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 15, 2011, 01:10:31 PM

I think the reviewer was saying they were out of order, with 16 coming before 15, for no apparent reason.

Quote
although I can't imagine any such reason for presenting the 3 flute trios, all on the same disc, in the (Hoboken) sequence 16/15/17.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2011, 01:19:59 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 15, 2011, 01:10:31 PM
I think the reviewer was saying they were out of order, with 16 coming before 15, for no apparent reason.

Ah, I see. Well, 16, 15, 17, IS the order the were written in, according to Landon. Not unusual for a publisher in those days to order things any way they wanted. Note the order of the sets of 6 string quartets; Op 9, for example was published in the order 4, 1, 3, 2, 5, 6. So he is right, there IS some arbitrariness, but it stems from (in the trio case) 1789 rather than today. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Van Swieten Trio - Hob 15_14 Trio in Ab for Keyboard & Strings 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on October 15, 2011, 01:43:53 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 15, 2011, 01:03:17 PM
It seems perfectly logical to me that proper sequence is like this:

1 34 35 37 38 40 41 C1 36 f1 39 2 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 32 24 25 26 31 27 28 29 30

Doesn't it to you? :D

Indeed it does! It's common sense! lol 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on October 15, 2011, 01:52:05 PM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51J3W6VMXNL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Simply put, this recording captures the greatness of Haydn's cello concerti.

The performances here are a stunner. They really are. :o

Truly, a wonderful recording of these concertos.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2011, 01:58:32 PM

Quote from: Leo K on October 15, 2011, 01:52:05 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51J3W6VMXNL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Simply put, this recording captures the greatness of Haydn's cello concerti.

The performances here are a stunner. They really are. :o

Truly, a wonderful recording of these concertos.

8)

Amen to that. They are right up there with the top recordings, PI or not! You don't hear these works mentioned as often as they deserve to be. Apparently the cellists respect them though; there is hardly a great cellist that hasn't had a go at them. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Van Swieten Trio - Hob 15_16 Trio in D for Keyboard, Flute & Cello 2nd mvmt - Andante pìu tosto Allegretto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 15, 2011, 03:12:02 PM

Quote from: Leo K on October 15, 2011, 01:52:05 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51J3W6VMXNL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Simply put, this recording captures the greatness of Haydn's cello concerti.

The performances here are a stunner. They really are. :o

Truly, a wonderful recording of these concertos.

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 15, 2011, 01:58:32 PM
Amen to that. They are right up there with the top recordings, PI or not! You don't hear these works mentioned as often as they deserve to be. Apparently the cellists respect them though; there is hardly a great cellist that hasn't had a go at them. :)

I love these concertos too, but I recall I had serious problems with this recording because of the position of the cello: too much forward to my taste. I prefer more balanced recordings as Suzuki, Bylsma and even Wispelwey.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on October 15, 2011, 04:46:50 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 15, 2011, 03:12:02 PM
I love these concertos too, but I recall I had serious problems with this recording because of the position of the cello: too much forward to my taste. I prefer more balanced recordings as Suzuki, Bylsma and even Wispelwey.

Salient cello? Me want!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2011, 05:04:23 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 15, 2011, 03:12:02 PM
I love these concertos too, but I recall I had serious problems with this recording because of the position of the cello: too much forward to my taste. I prefer more balanced recordings as Suzuki, Bylsma and even Wispelwey.

Well, I put that disk in my queue, it will come up in a bit. All I remember (from a year ago) is that it was very nicely played, not that he was holding the cello like a guitar. We'll see... :) Of course, it is Bylsma and Suzuki who are in my regular rotation. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Van Swieten Trio - Hob 15_17 Trio in F for Keyboard, Flute & Cello 2nd mvmt - Finale: Tempo di Menuetto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 15, 2011, 05:51:24 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 15, 2011, 05:04:23 PM
Well, I put that disk in my queue, it will come up in a bit. All I remember (from a year ago) is that it was very nicely played, not that he was holding the cello like a guitar. We'll see... :) Of course, it is Bylsma and Suzuki who are in my regular rotation. :)

Of course, I recall they were finalists in your Haydn project. But I don't know who was finally chosen. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2011, 05:58:15 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 15, 2011, 05:51:24 PM
Of course, I recall they were finalists in your Haydn project. But I don't know who was finally chosen. :)

Actually, due to my inability to make a choice, these 2 concerti are the only pieces in the whole collection that still have 2 finalists in place. The problem for me is that there are 2 different styles in play; Suzuki is like a chamber work, and that is an accurate depiction of a prevailing style of the time. Bylsma is more like a concerto in the way we usually consider it, with a nice band and an out front soloist. They are both very good, I simply can't decide on which style I prefer. It's so sad for me; I will have to listen to them both many more times before making a final cut... :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Van Swieten Trio - Hob 15_20 Trio in Bb for Keyboard & Strings 3rd mvmt - Finale: Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 15, 2011, 06:16:37 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 15, 2011, 05:58:15 PM
Actually, due to my inability to make a choice, these 2 concerti are the only pieces in the whole collection that still have 2 finalists in place. The problem for me is that there are 2 different styles in play; Suzuki is like a chamber work, and that is an accurate depiction of a prevailing style of the time. Bylsma is more like a concerto in the way we usually consider it, with a nice band and an out front soloist. They are both very good, I simply can't decide on which style I prefer. It's so sad for me; I will have to listen to them both many more times before making a final cut... :D

Two master cellists and two different conceptions, indeed. I agree with you, a decision is not necessary.

I think I would also be in terrible problems to do some decisions about the piano sonatas. String quartets, piano trios and symphonies would be relatively easy compared to the piano sonatas.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2011, 06:26:33 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 15, 2011, 06:16:37 PM
Two master cellists and two different conceptions, indeed. I agree with you, a decision is not necessary.

I think I would also be in terrible problems to do some decisions about the piano sonatas. String quartets, piano trios and symphonies would be relatively easy compared to the piano sonatas.

Yes, and it was particularly hard for me since I foolishly made a small collection of disks of performances on various period keyboards. So despite the basic fact of having pretty much ruled out a fortepiano before 1775, for example, that still left decisions such as cembalo or clavier? And then, which cembalo or clavier? You can imagine the agony of having to listen to all that keyboard music! :o :o ;D

The problems rise, of course, in the late works. How does one choose? What criteria? I think we all like the power and flash of Brautigam, for example, but Haydn wrote the late works for ladies, specific ladies, not just as a dedication but with the music contoured to their strengths and weaknesses, just as one does with a singer in an opera. So what's proper then? Still working on it, I change my mind often. But I do have each work just once at any given time. :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Van Swieten Trio - Hob 15_22 Trio in Eb for Keyboard & Strings 3rd mvmt - Finale: Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on October 16, 2011, 06:30:17 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 15, 2011, 05:04:23 PM
Well, I put that disk in my queue, it will come up in a bit. All I remember (from a year ago) is that it was very nicely played, not that he was holding the cello like a guitar. We'll see... :) Of course, it is Bylsma and Suzuki who are in my regular rotation. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Van Swieten Trio - Hob 15_17 Trio in F for Keyboard, Flute & Cello 2nd mvmt - Finale: Tempo di Menuetto

Since I love these cello concerti so much, I'm going to have to eventually try Bylsma and Suzuki. I'm again listening to the Queryas recording this morning and love it so! :-*

One thing about the Mullehjans/Queryas recording is the PI sound, a little rustic, a little refined, not perfect, but played with plenty of nuance and excitement. The balance of the cello may not be to everyone's taste, but Queyras' playing is so enchanting I don't mind at all :-*

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on October 16, 2011, 06:56:20 AM

Quote from: Leo K on October 16, 2011, 06:30:17 AM
Since I love these cello concerti so much, I'm going to have to eventually try Bylsma and Suzuki. I'm again listening to the Queryas recording this morning and love it so! :-*

One thing about the Mullehjans/Queryas recording is the PI sound, a little rustic, a little refined, not perfect, but played with plenty of nuance and excitement. The balance of the cello may not be to everyone's taste, but Queyras' playing is so enchanting I don't mind at all :-*

Sounds as if I might need to put another Haydn disc in my cart. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 17, 2011, 05:56:47 PM

Some Haydn on vinyl last night and tonight....is that even legal? ;D Shots from the web as I was too lazy to snap my own.

(http://www.ambergreen-classical.co.uk/ekmps/shops/padmagupta/images/dorati%5Bekm%5D413x310%5Bekm%5D.haydn-surprise-symphony.sr-90208-3331-p.jpg) (http://www.ambergreen-classical.co.uk/ekmps/shops/padmagupta/images/dorati%5Bekm%5D413x310%5Bekm%5D.haydn-farewell-.sr-90280-6229-p.jpg)

These Living Presence Hi-Fi Mercs are the best sounding vinyl on my little system. Need to snag me some more.

PS The Wolfie 40 ain't bad either.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2011, 06:04:07 PM

Quote from: Bogey on October 17, 2011, 05:56:47 PM
Some Haydn on vinyl last night and tonight....is that even legal? ;D Shots from the web as I was too lazy to snap my own.

(http://www.ambergreen-classical.co.uk/ekmps/shops/padmagupta/images/dorati%5Bekm%5D413x310%5Bekm%5D.haydn-surprise-symphony.sr-90208-3331-p.jpg) (http://www.ambergreen-classical.co.uk/ekmps/shops/padmagupta/images/dorati%5Bekm%5D413x310%5Bekm%5D.haydn-farewell-.sr-90280-6229-p.jpg)

These Living Presence Hi-Fi Mercs are the best sounding vinyl on my little system. Need to snag me some more.

PS The Wolfie 40 ain't bad either.

Yeah, I was thinking that would be a very nice tandem there. Wonder if that was ever released on CD... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 17, 2011, 06:40:28 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 17, 2011, 06:04:07 PM
Yeah, I was thinking that would be a very nice tandem there. Wonder if that was ever released on CD... :)

8)

From what I can see, no, but rather they started combining Dorati Haydn efforts on to cds....if it was, it was a brief release.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 17, 2011, 06:41:51 PM

Any opinions on this performance:

(http://store.acousticsounds.com/images/large/AFON_008__35720__01152009115150-796.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2011, 04:30:30 AM

Quote from: Bogey on October 17, 2011, 06:41:51 PM
Any opinions on this performance:

(http://store.acousticsounds.com/images/large/AFON_008__35720__01152009115150-796.jpg)

I have never heard even a single name that I can read on the cover (well, I heard of the Haydn guy, but that's about it). :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on October 18, 2011, 05:46:00 AM

Didn't know Martin Frobisher played cello!

(http://www.cartostamps.com/stampdb/images/thumbs/0000214_300.jpeg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2011, 06:12:42 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on October 18, 2011, 05:46:00 AM
Didn't know Martin Frobisher played cello!

(http://www.cartostamps.com/stampdb/images/thumbs/0000214_300.jpeg)

Once he reached Canada, he became a man of many parts, like all Canadians... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 18, 2011, 07:23:59 AM

The Creation - just doing a little comparison the last few days; both excellent versions - depends on your mood I guess, i.e. sung in English or German! :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Xnck5h46L._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ynDTqTMWL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on October 18, 2011, 07:26:58 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on October 18, 2011, 07:23:59 AM
The Creation - just doing a little comparison the last few days; both excellent versions - depends on your mood I guess, i.e. sung in English or German! :)

Well, according to Zappa, the Good Lord speaks German whenever it's Heavy Business . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: karlhenning on October 18, 2011, 07:27:52 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 18, 2011, 06:12:42 AM
Once he reached Canada, he became a man of many parts, like all Canadians... :)

8)

Bet his mates called him "Frobe."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on October 18, 2011, 07:34:39 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 18, 2011, 07:27:52 AM
Bet his mates called him "Frobe."

You've met us!

"Hey Frobe, toss us a brewski, eh?"

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 18, 2011, 07:50:27 AM

Purchased yesterday...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JO%2Bks7nEL._SS400_.jpg)

I will now own this Savall-original orchestral version, along with the String Quartet and Choral versions of Haydn's Seven Last Words of Christ on the Cross .
I own the Harnoncourt performance of the choral version, and although it is a beautiful piece,
I still tend to enjoy the String Quartet version slightly more. I'm consistently impressed with the range of emotions evoked in such a smaller instrumentation.
Also, I do realize that I have moved backwards by ending with the original orchestral commission, but hey, that's my style ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on October 18, 2011, 08:07:21 AM

I recently ordered this disc under Gurn's recommendation in his Classical Corner:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51S3CQT9RFL._SS500_.jpg)

A very nice disc and a fine introduction to fortepiano for anyone wanting to get used to the unique sound without having to listen to just fortepiano for an hour or more at a time.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2011, 09:42:57 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 18, 2011, 07:50:27 AM
Purchased yesterday...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JO%2Bks7nEL._SS400_.jpg)

I will now own this Savall-original orchestral version, along with the String Quartet and Choral versions of Haydn's Seven Last Words of Christ on the Cross .
I own the Harnoncourt performance of the choral version, and although it is a beautiful piece,
I still tend to enjoy the String Quartet version slightly more. I'm consistently impressed with the range of emotions evoked in such a smaller instrumentation.
Also, I do realize that I have moved backwards by ending with the original orchestral commission, but hey, that's my style ;D

Greg,
Don't know what SQ version you have, but the oratorio & orchestral versions are the same that I have kept. Excellent! Backwards, forwards; it's all good. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2011, 09:45:21 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on October 18, 2011, 08:07:21 AM
I recently ordered this disc under Gurn's recommendation in his Classical Corner:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51S3CQT9RFL._SS500_.jpg)

A very nice disc and a fine introduction to fortepiano for anyone wanting to get used to the unique sound without having to listen to just fortepiano for an hour or more at a time.

Glad you liked that disk. It was my first PI Haydn and went a long way towards sealing my future fate: PI AND Haydn. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 18, 2011, 12:34:45 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 18, 2011, 04:30:30 AM
I have never heard even a single name that I can read on the cover (well, I heard of the Haydn guy, but that's about it). :)

8)

well, if Gurn the Great knows it not, then truly it is the obscurest of the obscure.

On another tangent, this is one of the CDs I found yesterday in the local used CD store.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/511Ctupr%2B8L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GX12XMA0L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
The second is the reissue and is presumably more readily available; I bought the original issue for $2.99 used.
One concerto is by JM Haydn, and the other is by Leopold Hoffman, but was formerly attributed to FJH (ironically, since according to the liner notes FJH thought Hoffman's music was tripe), so the only music actually by FJH himself are the six Scherzandi (Hob. II:33-38)--early miniature three movement symphonies in which the flute appears only the middle movement, in place of the other woodwinds which are used in the outer movement. First time I even heard of these works, so I'll not give an opinion of the performance, other than to say that I liked the JMH concerto best of the pieces recorded.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on October 18, 2011, 12:40:19 PM

Quote from: Bogey on October 17, 2011, 06:41:51 PM
Any opinions on this performance:

(http://store.acousticsounds.com/images/large/AFON_008__35720__01152009115150-796.jpg)

No, but the cover photo looks as if it should be captioned, "Buy this record or you'd better have eyes in the back of your head."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on October 18, 2011, 01:18:45 PM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516xBEHQ2FL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

What a splendid thing is a record collection. I bought this (and its companion box) a while ago because a few people here were making a fuss about it. And when it arrived, I played a few CDs, listened, didn't somehow succeed in engaging much (for whatever reason - it doesn't matter), put them back on the shelf, and there they stayed till a few days ago.

Between then and now I've listened to a lot more Haydn. The Masses, for a start; and lots and lots of HIP symphonies (Pinnock, Goodman, Kuijken, Minkowski). And yesterday I saw the Mosaiques box on the shelf and thought maybe this was a good time to blow the dust off it. So I've been listening to some of the quartets from Op.20. Well, they are simply fabulous, aren't they? I can't understand my indifference of a couple of years ago, or whenever it was. Again and again he expresses this light, musical wit, and it just makes the day feel better. I said to my wife that on the evidence of his music, I think Haydn may be the great composer above all others that I'd like to have spent a lot of time in the company of. I'd love to have met Elgar, but if it had been a bad day you'd get short shrift and nothing but grumps. Not so with Haydn, I'd say! This may be the most earnestly and consistently feelgood music I know; and even though as I say that, I'm aware that it may be thought that I mean 'lightweight' - I don't. This is serious, earnest, and inspired delight.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2011, 01:39:39 PM

Quote from: Elgarian on October 18, 2011, 01:18:45 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516xBEHQ2FL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

What a splendid thing is a record collection. I bought this (and its companion box) a while ago because a few people here were making a fuss about it. And when it arrived, I played a few CDs, listened, didn't somehow succeed in engaging much (for whatever reason - it doesn't matter), put them back on the shelf, and there they stayed till a few days ago.

Between then and now I've listened to a lot more Haydn. The Masses, for a start; and lots and lots of HIP symphonies (Pinnock, Goodman, Kuijken, Minkowski). And yesterday I saw the Mosaiques box on the shelf and thought maybe this was a good time to blow the dust off it. So I've been listening to some of the quartets from Op.20. Well, they are simply fabulous, aren't they? I can't understand my indifference of a couple of years ago, or whenever it was. Again and again he expresses this light, musical wit, and it just makes the day feel better. I said to my wife that on the evidence of his music, I think Haydn may be the great composer above all others that I'd like to have spent a lot of time in the company of. I'd love to have met Elgar, but if it had been a bad day you'd get short shrift and nothing but grumps. Not so with Haydn, I'd say! This may be the most earnestly and consistently feelgood music I know; and even though as I say that, I'm aware that it may be thought that I mean 'lightweight' - I don't. This is serious, earnest, and inspired delight.

Alan, I can't tell you how delighted I am to read your comments. Haydn's music was an instant hit with me, and I have never been able to grasp why it isn't with everyone. But I see that sometimes it is just a thing of the moment; i.e. - right now this doesn't appeal, but it could some day if I give it a chance. And I think another lesson learned here is that the performer(s) are not the main thing, it is the music itself that makes the connection. Despite that I have been balky over the QM, for example, my complaint has been that they are too perfect of all things! Which is silly really, but the point is that the music itself has never come into question for me. It is so consistently Je ne sais quoi... ideal to me. I had a tagline for a long time,along the lines of "I can listen to Bach for hours, but I can listen to Haydn for years". It still holds true. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2011, 03:03:55 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 18, 2011, 12:34:45 PM
well, if Gurn the Great knows it not, then truly it is the obscurest of the obscure.

On another tangent, this is one of the CDs I found yesterday in the local used CD store.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/511Ctupr%2B8L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GX12XMA0L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
The second is the reissue and is presumably more readily available; I bought the original issue for $2.99 used.
One concerto is by JM Haydn, and the other is by Leopold Hoffman, but was formerly attributed to FJH (ironically, since according to the liner notes FJH thought Hoffman's music was tripe), so the only music actually by FJH himself are the six Scherzandi (Hob. II:33-38)--early miniature three movement symphonies in which the flute appears only the middle movement, in place of the other woodwinds which are used in the outer movement. First time I even heard of these works, so I'll not give an opinion of the performance, other than to say that I liked the JMH concerto best of the pieces recorded.

Jeffrey,
I have seen that disk but never heard it. Are you saying that they did the Scherzandi in 3 movements each? One of the amazing things about them, and one of their big features, is that each one is a tiny, 4 movement symphony. So they must have combined the 2 inner movements into 1. I have this version;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Scherz.jpg)

which is now available on that "Music for Naples and Esterhazy" box on BIS. No matter the version, they are delightful little pieces. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Quatuors Festetics - Hob 03_39 Quartet in C for Strings Op 33 #3 2nd mvmt - Scherzo: Allegretto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 18, 2011, 03:14:14 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 18, 2011, 04:30:30 AM
I have never heard even a single name that I can read on the cover (well, I heard of the Haydn guy, but that's about it). :)

8)

He does not have much of a discography

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/albumList.jsp?name_id1=24962&name_role1=2&bcorder=2

and the asking price is $100 for the two record set (recorded at 45 speed). :o As David pointed out, an intimidating chap, so may be worth the "pay-off" money for him to leave us alone.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 18, 2011, 03:17:49 PM

Quote from: Elgarian on October 18, 2011, 01:18:45 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516xBEHQ2FL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

and consistently feelgood music I know; and even though as I say that, I'm aware that it may be thought that I mean 'lightweight' - I don't. This is serious, earnest, and inspired delight.

Vivaldi can get the same rap....however, I believe that both can knock down walls with the correct approach.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 18, 2011, 03:19:41 PM

....and this goes for Handel as well! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 18, 2011, 05:48:29 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 18, 2011, 03:03:55 PM
Jeffrey,
I have seen that disk but never heard it. Are you saying that they did the Scherzandi in 3 movements each? One of the amazing things about them, and one of their big features, is that each one is a tiny, 4 movement symphony. So they must have combined the 2 inner movements into 1.

Actually, it was me who changed it into three movements. I didn't have the actual CD in front of me at the time, and for some reason I remembered three movements instead of four. But now seeing your post, I checked, and it's really four, with the flute appearing only in the Minuet and Trio movement. Mes regrets.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2011, 06:03:13 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 18, 2011, 05:48:29 PM
Actually, it was me who changed it into three movements. I didn't have the actual CD in front of me at the time, and for some reason I remembered three movements instead of four. But now seeing your post, I checked, and it's really four, with the flute appearing only in the Minuet and Trio movement. Mes regrets.

C'est rien. I do that sort of thing all the time, which is why I try not to say much without my cheat notes in front of me. :D :D

I have that same flute concerto by Hoffman, on this disk here:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnCantarinacover.jpg)

which is the only recording of this early opera. He (authentically) uses Symphony #1 as an overture, and then the concerto as a closer. Nice disk. Pity Haydn never actually wrote a flute concerto of his own, nor an oboe concerto (probably didn't) either. He had good players at Esterhazy, it could have been quite nice. Our loss... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 18, 2011, 07:17:40 PM

I love Davis's steel-toed boot approach to this mass:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61rn6uCr3RL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on October 19, 2011, 12:34:32 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 18, 2011, 01:39:39 PM
But I see that sometimes it is just a thing of the moment; i.e. - right now this doesn't appeal, but it could some day if I give it a chance.

Story of my life, Gurn! A series of musical dominoes standing defiantly then falling over at irregular intervals for no obvious reason that I can see. Incidentally, a similar thing happened a few days ago with his cello concerti. I have a Jaqueline Du Pre assorted box of stuff, and her Haydn concerti have never made me turn my head. But on a whim last week I spun the disk, and was enchanted. And it's not even remotely HIP either, which tends to confirm your view that when it's time for the music to strike, it can transcend performance. Next month (when funds are replenished) I'll see about getting a good HIP recording.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on October 19, 2011, 12:38:38 AM

Quote from: Bogey on October 18, 2011, 03:17:49 PM
Vivaldi can get the same rap....however, I believe that both can knock down walls with the correct approach. ....and this goes for Handel as well!

Yes: the effectiveness of the Handel dynamite in particular is well attested here! I'm continually having to call the bricklayers in.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on October 21, 2011, 05:13:22 PM

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/17/30/5c0c729fd7a06477cdd9e010.L._AA300_.jpg)

Whenever I have free time, I've been listening to this, and it's SO beautiful and refreshing after a difficult day!

;D
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on October 21, 2011, 10:59:43 PM

Quote from: Leo K on October 15, 2011, 01:52:05 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51J3W6VMXNL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Simply put, this recording captures the greatness of Haydn's cello concerti.

The performances here are a stunner. They really are. :o

Truly, a wonderful recording of these concertos.

I have one of these currently on order as a result of this recommendation. Thanks Leo. (Listening to some samples now of the Brautigam PCs, it seems like I should also invest in those too.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2011, 08:09:58 AM

Part 1

1749-50 and before...

I am starting here a series of posts that will, I hope, accomplish 2 things; sharing the results of my last 5 years of research, and suggesting some recordings for each work, in the event you want to build a library of Haydn's music without spending the thousands of dollars that I have spent, trying to find the "right" work for me. This second part relies totally on you trusting me to not go after a bunch of weird stuff. I think you all know by now how my taste runs. I like period instrument recordings, played by an appropriate number of musicians, and in a manner that is consistent with what is known about 18th century music. If you like other styles, no problem, see if you can benefit from the chronological research and then go with a version you like better. :)

Here is something that you will have to get used to early on; there is almost no documentary information on Haydn's life and musical activity before his employ by the Esterházy court in 1761. This is one though; in 1776 he was asked to write a brief autobiographical sketch for a sort of Austrian Who's Who called Das gelehrte Oesterreich, probably because of the fame he gained in Vienna as a result of his oratorio Il ritorno di Tobia. This took the form of a rather long letter addressed to a Mrs. Leonore Lechner who had been enlisted to solicit him for it. One would have to believe that for all intents and purposes, if Haydn wrote it himself it was probably pretty much accurate (although he starts off in the first sentence saying that he was born in 1733 rather than '32... ::) ). I don't intend to recreate it here. You might have a read of it though sometime, and you might also note, as I did, that when he briefly lists the compositions that he has to his credit at that time, every one of them is a vocal/choral work, his operas, oratorios and sacred works. This is no accident, it shows that he, like everyone else at that time, viewed his instrumental works as insignificant trifles.

The only other primary source (which is to say, from people who knew and interviewed Haydn) are the brief biographies by Georg August Griesinger, Albert Christoph Dies and Giuseppe Carpani, supplemented by parish registers, musical archives, dated autographs and the like. I will be using Griesinger and Dies a lot later on.

Haydn was born into a family of primarily south German stock. His immediate ancestors were not peasants (as legend has it), but artisans and tradespeople. His grandfather and his father, Mathias (1699–1763), were master wheelwrights; Mathias also functioned as Marktrichter (magistrate) of the 'market village' (as Haydn called it) Rohrau. Rohrau was a possession of Count Karl Anton Harrach (1692–1758). Haydn's mother, Anna Maria Koller (1707–54), had, before her marriage in 1728, been a cook at the Harrach castle.

Mathias Haydn was 'a great lover of music by nature', who 'played the harp without reading a note of music'; his mother sang the melodies. Indeed all three of their surviving male children became professional musicians, two of them famous composers. (The third, Johann Evangelist, 1743–1805, was a tenor in a church choir and later at the Esterházy court.) Dies says of Haydn's father that 'all the children had to join in his concerts, to learn the songs, and to develop their singing voice', adding that he also organized concerts among the neighbors.

It was clear early on that Haydn had talent. He tells Griesinger that 'As a boy of five I sang all [my father's] simple easy pieces correctly' and he still remembered these melodies in old age. 'Almighty God ... granted me so much facility, especially in music, that when I was only six I boldly sang masses down from the choir loft, and could also get around on the harpsichord and violin.' In 1737 or 1738 Johann Mathias Franck (a local friend and teacher) was so impressed by Haydn's voice and musical accuracy that he suggested that he come to live with him, 'so that there I could learn the rudiments of music along with other juvenile necessities'. It being clear that his abilities could not be developed in Rohrau, his parents agreed, whether in the hope that he might amount to something as a musician or the belief that musical and educational accomplishments might be useful in what they (especially his mother) imagined as his true calling, that of a priest.

Griesinger writes: He received instruction in reading and writing, in the catechism, in singing, and on almost all the string and wind instruments, and even on the timpani: 'I will be grateful to this man (Franck) even in the grave', Haydn often said, 'that he taught me so much, even though in the process I received more beatings than food'.

In 1739 or 1740 ('in my 7th year' writes Griesinger, but Dies says; in his eighth year) Haydn was recruited to serve as choirboy at St. Stephens in Vienna: 'Kapellmeister Rütter, on a trip through Hainburg, heard my thin but pleasant voice from a distance, and at once accepted me into the Capell Haus' (choir school). At the choir school, 'I was taught the art of singing, the harpsichord and the violin by very good masters'; in singing these included Adam Gegenbauer and the tenor Ignaz Finsterbusch (both d 1753). To be sure, there was apparently little formal training in theory or composition, although the singing included solfeggio and the harpsichord instruction probably entailed figured bass.

Haydn's instruction included lessons from Mattheson's Der vollkommene Kapellmeister (1739) and Fux's Gradus ad Parnassum (1725). Haydn's study of Fux would more plausibly have taken place during the 1750s. In any case, his copy of Gradus is heavily annotated (in Latin); he made it the basis of his own teaching of composition, as did Mozart.

But this life could not last; his voice broke. A characteristic anecdote adds insult to injury by relating that after one performance Maria Theresa (a regular attendee at the Cathedral) said that he sang 'like a crow'. Griesinger states that Reutter had earlier suggested that Haydn might become a castrato, but his father refused permission. Soon after his voice broke he was dismissed from the choir school. Haydn wrote that he remained there 'until into my 18th year' (i.e. April 1749 to March 1750). Carl Pohl, who had access to many documents now lost but gives no source in this instance, writes: 'We find Haydn on the street; it was a damp November evening in 1749'. Pathos aside (the date and atmosphere derive from Framery), the date is consistent with Haydn's statement, he was out in the streets of the city...

The music of 1749 & 1750;

1749
Hob 22_01 - Missa Brevis in F
Rebel Baroque Orchestra / Burdick Trinity Choir
Hob 22_03 - Missa 'rorate coeli desuper'
Collegium musicum 90/ Richard Hickox
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/51Yh1Av-J4L.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Hickoxmasses.jpg)

1750
Hob 23c_5a – 4 Motets of the Holy Sacrament   (Lauda Sion)
Tafelmusik / Bruno Weil
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnWeilMassesCompletecover-1.jpg)

Not so hard to see where his roots were. After spending his life from 7 to 17 years old as a chorister in the Cathedral, it is no surprise that he started out with sacred music. In a bit of consistency that points to the stability of his beliefs, despite the reams of music that he wrote in his life after this, yet his final complete work was also a mass. We start off here with the Missa brevis, which I am opting to go with Burdick here. His version is the most fundamental, he uses the actual original instrumentation while nearly everyone else uses the 1805 re-orchestration that Haydn himself did for publication in Breitkopf & Härtel's 'Complete Works'.

For the Missa 'rorate coeli desuper', an Advent mass with an uncertain origin, I have chosen Hickox and Co.. Not least because they have deigned to record it and let you hear it for yourself. This is a very simple mass, written in the style of the time, which was having all 4 lines written simultaneously so that extended parts of the Gloria and Credo come out on just a page. The current scholarship, after years of fretting over it, is that Haydn composed the 2 violin parts and the vocal melodies, all of which are less polished, over the perfect figured bass that was probably composed by his teacher, Rütter. So a student work, clearly, but one which is still interesting to listen to if you have the chance.

Finally to 1750, where we find 4 Motets of the Holy Sacrament. From a 13th century text, Lauda Sion! (Praise Sion!) is a series of 4 motets performed at a procession to 4 different altars at the church. In Vienna it was part of the Corpus Christi Day worship. Haydn set it twice; this extremely early version, all 4 in C major, and again in 1765 when he set the texts in the contrasting keys of Bb, d, A & Ab. This is his earliest essay into the Viennese tradition of jubilant, triumphant C major with trumpets and all. I really like the job that Weil and the Tafelmusiker did with this, it smacks of Old Vienna.

So there it is, the beginning of a long, long road. The Baroque is still around, and the road doesn't end until the Romantic (so-called) is in full swing. Haydn spanned the entire age, and in fact, it's name and symbolism, "The Classical Era" derive from the music of this one source. I hope you will enjoy it as much as I do.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on October 22, 2011, 08:18:49 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 22, 2011, 08:09:58 AM
I am starting here a series of posts that will, I hope, accomplish 2 things; sharing the results of my last 3 years of research, and suggesting some recordings for each work, in the event you want to build a library of Haydn's music without spending the thousands of dollars that I have spent, trying to find the "right" work for me.

Gurn, this (from my point of view) could hardly be more timely. so thanks for it. I shall be following events attentively, you can be sure!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on October 22, 2011, 08:19:22 AM

Bravo Gurn! I'm gonna really dig this! Thanks!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on October 22, 2011, 08:24:55 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on October 21, 2011, 10:59:43 PM
I have one of these currently on order as a result of this recommendation. Thanks Leo. (Listening to some samples now of the Brautigam PCs, it seems like I should also invest in those too.)

I really hope you find much to enjoy from the disks man. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 22, 2011, 08:25:12 AM

Great idea, Gurn! If I can suggest/ask for something, I think it would be great to wait, say, two or three days between every of your posts to encourage some discussion. I think this kind of systematic approach allows to organize quite better our own listens and to try to contribute with something of value, both regarding your recommendations and regarding the works themselves.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2011, 08:35:39 AM

Part 2

1751 - 1752

There is no known surviving music from 1751 & 1752. The likelihood is that he actually wrote a great deal, but it simply didn't survive the ravages of time and the future Mrs. Haydn.

Haydn spoke briefly but passionately about his early days of 'freedom' in Vienna. This is from the 'Lechner Letter' mentioned above;

"When my voice finally broke, for eight whole years I was forced to eke out a wretched existence by teaching young people. Many geniuses are ruined by this miserable [need to earn their] daily bread, because they lack time to study. This could well have happened to me; I would never have achieved what little I have done, had I not carried on with my zeal for composition during the night. I composed diligently, but not quite correctly, until I finally had the good fortune to learn the true fundamentals of composition from the famous Porpora (who was in Vienna at the time)."

From 1749 to the mid-1750's, he was a teacher and freelance musician, as well as practicing his composition virtually every night. During this period he met Metastasio and Porpora, which early on gave him huge advantages in learning and also in making social contacts. Porpora lived in the same building, and Haydn earned money by playing the piano for the voice students who took lessons at the master's apartment. From 1749 through circa 1750, Haydn was offered a garret to live in by another struggling musician, a tenor at the local church, named Johann Spangler. This got him under a roof, more or less, and allowed him a start. He probably moved out in September 1750 after the birth of the Spangler's second child Maddelena. It is an interesting insight into Haydn's personality that in 1768 he hired Maddelena to sing at Esterházy, where she became a featured soprano in some of his operas and oratorios. Her parents' great kindness to Haydn was repaid handsomely down the road.

Griesinger relates an interesting account of this time period, concerning Haydn's next living quarters, another garret in the building adjoining the St Michael's Church;

"In the same house ... lived as well the famous poet Metastasio. He was raising one Fräulein Martinez; Haydn was engaged to give her lessons in singing and on the clavier, in return for which he received free board for three years. At Metastasio's he also made the acquaintance of the aging Kapellmeister Porpora. Porpora was teaching singing to the mistress of the Venetian ambassador, Correr; however, because he (Porpora) was too proper and too fond of his ease to accompany at the piano himself, he delegated this task to our Giuseppe. 'There was no lack of Ass, Blockhead, Rascal and pokes in the ribs, but I willingly put up with it all, for I profited immensely from Porpora in singing, composition and Italian.' In the summer Correr traveled with the lady to the popular bathing resort Mannersdorf ...; Porpora went as well ... and took Haydn with him. For three months Haydn served there as Porpora's valet; he ate at Correr's officers' table, and was paid six ducats [c25 gulden] a month. From time to time he was required to accompany Porpora on the clavier at one Prince von Hildburghausen's, in the presence of Gluck, Wagenseil and other famous masters; the approval of these connoisseurs was especially encouraging to him".

This was the sort of good fortune that dogged Haydn his entire life. He couldn't seem to escape the curse of falling in dung and coming out smelling like a rose. At least it couldn't have happened to a more talented and deserving fellow. Sometimes there actually IS justice in the serendipity of life!

Part 3

1753

By 1753, however, there are many pieces still with us. There seem to be 2 preoccupations now musically. The first, which he spoke of fondly in later years, was the street serenading that was so very popular in Vienna. For a high-spirited 19 year old, dirt-poor musician with many friends in the business, writing and playing serenades and divertimentos was big fun. Secondly would seem to be keyboard music, both private (sonatas & variations) and public (church concertos that accomplished learning, financial and 'making contacts').

The music of 1753:

Hob 02_02 - Divertimento a cinque in G for Strings
Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnEarlyDivertimenticover.jpg)

Hob 16_01 Sonata #10 in C for Keyboard
Yuko Wataya
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardWatayaEarlySonatascover.jpg)

Hob 17_07 5 Variations in D for Keyboard
Derek Adlam
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardAdlamclavichordcover.jpg)

New Dusseldorf Hofmusik / Utiger Christine Schornsheim
Hob 18_02 Concerto in D for Harpsichord
Hob 18_05 Concerto in C for Harpsichord
Hob 18_08 Concerto in C for Organ
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/ConcertosSchornsheim.jpg)

Hob 18_10 Concerto in C for Organ
Divertimento Salzburg / Haselböck
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHaselbckcover.jpg)

This is the sort of music that a student composer wrote in those days, and as you will hear, Haydn did it better than many. The divertimento for string quintet turns out to be the only string quintet that Haydn ever wrote. Like the entire of this wonderful box set by the Haydn Sinfonietta / Huss, this is an excellent performance. This is a box that you will be seeing plenty of in future recommendations, and I can't be more laudatory than I am here. It is a superb set and well worth your attention.

The remainder of the surviving works from this period are split between solo keyboard works, sonatas and variations, and keyboard concertos for use in church, where Haydn played daily and where, in the Viennese tradition all sorts of music that one normally doesn't think of as "church music" was routinely played in the Mass.

Secular 'keyboard works' at that time consisted in 2 options; cembalo (harpsichord) or clavier (generically 'keyboard', but colloquially 'clavichord'). Haydn didn't have access to a fortepiano until the early 1770's (as far as is known), so pretty much all of my recommendations until then will be for recordings on cembalo or clavier. Which is no hardship, since we have a rich group to choose from here.

Well, we can't let things like systems of chronology trip us up at this early stage. We are going to take Hob 1, which everyone agrees was composed here in 1753, as the first sonata even though Crista Landon calls it #10! And Yuko Wataya does an excellent job here on a Haas Reproduction clavichord from 1751.

Another very fine clavichord performance is turned in by Derek Adlam on the 5 variations in D. He also uses a Haas Reproduction clavier, although his is based on a 1763 model and was constructed by none other than himself. I am very keen on this Guild disk and recommend it frequently, it's a great acquisition for the Haydnista who loves period keyboards too.

Now we move into an interesting area, one in which I have asked for input previously but not got much back. The four surviving keyboard concertos from this year were probably all composed originally to be played at the Barmherzige Brüder Church, where Haydn had a daily gig playing the organ for Mass. The accompaniment would have been 2 Oboes, 2 Trumpets and Timpani (optional) (although #8 doesn't include the oboes). It is entirely possible that these works were composed with the dual purpose of being sacred or secular, since some of the earliest copies exist with just "Concerto for Keyboard", although the organ has been inferred from the upper range of the solo parts. In any case, Schornsheim plays here 2 of them on the cembalo, and then both her and Haselböck play the other 2 on the organ. If you are only going to have one disk (well, OK, it's a 2 disk set) of these works, then Schornsheim is the one to go with. If you have a chance to pick up the Haselböck disk too, by all means, it is a lovely thing to have. :)

I know that early Haydn is probably not everyone's cup of tea, just like many don't like early Mozart or Beethoven. However, if you DO like to see where the roots of the music are, all of the disks featured here are excellent and well-worth having. :)

Please feel free to give me some feedback. Even during this reprint/re-edit phase I will gladly add to my store of knowledge, either of Haydn or of recordings.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2011, 08:42:11 AM

Thanks for the feedback (already!). :)

Quote from: Elgarian on October 22, 2011, 08:18:49 AM
Gurn, this (from my point of view) could hardly be more timely. so thanks for it. I shall be following events attentively, you can be sure!

That's great, Alan. I think as we go along you will see a disk or 2 that appeals to you. I freely admit that my eccentricities won't appeal to all, but it is the music that is most important. The performances will take care of themselves. :)

Quote from: Leo K on October 22, 2011, 08:19:22 AM
Bravo Gurn! I'm gonna really dig this! Thanks!

My pleasure, Leo. We'll be into some early operas soon too!

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 22, 2011, 08:25:12 AM
Great idea, Gurn! If I can suggest/ask for something, I think it would be great to wait, say, two or three days between every of your posts to encourage some discussion. I think this kind of systematic approach allows to organize quite better our own listens and to try to contribute with something of value, both regarding your recommendations and regarding the works themselves.

Antoine, I completely agree with you. I am stopping here for now (1753) since after this, some years encompass great chunks of music. In fact, there are some that I may have to split up. :-\

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03_29 Quartet in G for Strings Op 17 #5 4th mvmt - Finale: Presto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2011, 09:07:48 AM

Just to avoid being as arcane as the references that I am trying to make accessible, I would like to point out a couple of things here, and will do further as we go along.

Hob 02_02 - Divertimento a cinque in G for Strings

I don't use the Roman numerals that Hoboken uses. To keep things orderly in my file system, I use Arabic numerals with a leading zero where needed. So yes, "02" does = II. And 23 = XXIII.

And when I used "Divertimento a cinque in G for Strings" that's because this is what Haydn used on the front page. One can also say "String Quintet" there is one cares to, but it would be misleading because of the strong likelihood that he is writing for 2 violins, 2 violas and a double bass, rather than a cello. I don't tend to use phrases like "Divertimento a cinque" myself. But I guess that's how one gets famous. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on October 22, 2011, 09:13:51 AM

I am amazed to be able to say that ... I own the Christine Schornsheim box set of piano sonatas!! I'd seen it recommended here by someone at a time when I was getting keen on the fortepiano, and had the good luck to find one amazingly cheap somewhere, so I bought it as a future cultural investment! And so here it is, waiting for me to get around to listening to it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2011, 09:33:36 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on October 22, 2011, 09:13:51 AM
I am amazed to be able to say that ... I own the Christine Schornsheim box set of piano sonatas!! I'd seen it recommended here by someone at a time when I was getting keen on the fortepiano, and had the good luck to find one amazingly cheap somewhere, so I bought it as a future cultural investment! And so here it is, waiting for me to get around to listening to it.

That is just the sort of box that you can say "well, if I only have one source of Haydn keyboard music, this is the one I'll take". I love her concept of playing on different keyboards that are appropriate to the time the music was composed. Also, she is an extraordinarily good player, quite versatile, and can play as appropriately for 1753 as for 1795. I use quite a bit of that box in this list, although I have a great number of disks with different instruments and approaches, and I tried to keep them as varied as possible. I would like to make the point here that simply because I chose one performance, doesn't mean I didn't like the others I have. In fact, I like the entire Schornsheim box! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 22, 2011, 09:46:23 AM

Any other recommendations for Haydn sonatas on pianoforte? The Christine Schornsheim set is tempting but a little pricey for me at the moment. I currently own several Jando/Naxos discs and one from Emanuel Ax, I throughly enjoy them, but have been bitten by the pianoforte bug ever since I purchased The Last 4 Piano Trios with Robert Levin on Sony Classical.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2011, 10:01:33 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 22, 2011, 09:46:23 AM
Any other recommendations for Haydn sonatas on pianoforte? The Christine Schornsheim set is tempting but a little pricey for me at the moment. I currently own several Jando/Naxos discs and one from Emanuel Ax, I throughly enjoy them, but have been bitten by the pianoforte bug ever since I purchased The Last 4 Piano Trios with Robert Levin on Sony Classical.

Greg, are you talking about a single disk with a variety of sonatas (or variations) on it, or a 'big box' full set?

If you want just 1 disk, my clear favorite is this one;
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnBilsonSchantzcover.jpg)

If you want a big box, I would go with this one (all on fortepiano):
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BrautigamCover-1.jpg)

The Brautigam is disappearing from print, I'm afraid. For the longest time it was $45 on AMP. About 4 months ago I noticed that the number of vendors wa way down, and the best price was $55. I had waited to buy because I bought the downloads from eClassical as 320 kbps MP3's a few years ago and postponed paying twice.

If you can't get a good price on the Brautigam, the Brilliant with several players is your next choice. Damn sure nothing wrong with that one, either.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/514dNL3ZH5L.jpg)

There are lots of singles out there, many of them excellent. The downside being that a lot of them want to play the same pieces... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 22, 2011, 10:13:20 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 22, 2011, 08:09:58 AM
1749
Hob 22_01 - Missa Brevis in F

Do you know if this is the original 1749 version or the revised version from 1805? I tend to think that Hickox follows the revised score because the instrumental part of the original is composed for two violins, bass and organ and the orchestral accompaniment of Hickox sounds quite more populated.

I thought it would be interesting to add the liner notes from the Chandos disc about the Missa Brevis in F:

QuoteIn his old age Haydn had the touching experience of re-discovering some long-forgotten works and selling them to Breitkopf & Härtel, sometimes amending the instrumentation. One of these rediscoveries was the Missa brevis in F major, probably Haydn's first mass and originally composed when he was seventeen or eighteen. 'What specially pleases me in this little work', he told one of his biographers, 'is the melody, and a certain youthful fire...'. The mass is scored for chorus, strings and organ, with two delightfully florid parts for solo sopranos. Its neat, unambitious nature should not be taken as the inexperience of a youthful composer; rather the reverse, for it was a very skilful setting of the text designed to further Haydn's career as a composer of church music in mid-century Vienna. This neatness is partly due to the composer's decision to follow the frequent practice of setting the 'Dona nobis pacem' to the same music as the Kyrie. Equally typical of contemporary practice is the Credo, in which several lines of the text are sung simultaneously, and the Benedictus, which adopts the opposite approach: a high ratio of music to words.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 22, 2011, 10:33:09 AM

Thanks, Gurn. ;D
I am interested in singles and full sets, but right now I'm budgeted for singles, listening to samples from the Bilson disc and it's very appealing.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2011, 10:34:10 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 22, 2011, 10:13:20 AM
Do you know if this is the original 1749 version or the revised version from 1805? I tend to think that Hickox follows the revised score because the instrumental part of the original is composed for two violins, bass and organ and the orchestral accompaniment of Hickox sounds quite more populated.

I thought it would be interesting to add the liner notes from the Chandos disc about the Missa Brevis in F:

:)

Yes, that bit from the liner notes is interesting, and sort of... homey. I like that!

As for Hickox' scoring here, I don't know for sure what he uses since he doesn't expand at all. According to Feder (New Grove Haydn), the parts that Haydn added were "winds and timpani". As I listen to it right now, there is no chance that a wind or percussion instrument slipping past the ear unheard. So I don't think it is the revised (in 1805-06) version at all.

However, it is very difficult to judge some other things. Specifically, Haydn wrote "2 sopranos, 4 voices, 2 violins & BC (organ)". But that is like "strings". Does "4 voices" mean a chorus of 4 people? Or does it mean there are 4 choral voice parts and you can put as many on a part as feels right to you? It seems to MY ear that Hickox chose the latter route, but now the rascal has gone and died on us just to avoid answering that question. >:( ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2011, 10:37:17 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 22, 2011, 10:33:09 AM
Thanks, Gurn. ;D
I am interested in singles and full sets, but right now I'm budgeted for singles, listening to samples from the Bilson disc and it's very appealing.

Greg,
Ah, very good. To me, Bilson is at the top of the heap as a fortepianist. He has wonderful touch that just draws you into the music. You can tell it isn't just a display of empty virtuosity with him. I got that disk from one of the Marketplace vendors brand new for like $13, which is a great price for a Claves disk. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 22, 2011, 12:03:46 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 22, 2011, 10:34:10 AM
As for Hickox' scoring here, I don't know for sure what he uses since he doesn't expand at all. According to Feder (New Grove Haydn), the parts that Haydn added were "winds and timpani". As I listen to it right now, there is no chance that a wind or percussion instrument slipping past the ear unheard. So I don't think it is the revised (in 1805-06) version at all.

I totally agree with the highlighted part; but if we believe the notes of the CD, the instrumentation includes bassoon and trumpet.

The exact forces used by Hickox are:

Soloists
Susan Gritton, soprano
Pamela Helen Stephen, mezzo-soprano

Collegium Musicum 90
Richard Hickox, conductor

violin I
Simon Standage David Rubio 1997, copy of a Guarnerius
Micaela Comberti David Rubio 1996, based on Del Gesu 'The Paganini', 1742
Clare Salaman Thomas Smith, 1760
Susan Carpenter-Jacobs Lockey Hill, 1766

violin II
Miles Golding Florianus Bosy, Bologna 1763
Diane Moore Anon., English or Flemish c. 1780
Stephen Bull Anon., Genoese (?), mid-18th century
Ann Monnington Lockey Hill, late-18th century

cello
Richard Tunicliffe Thomas Smith, c. 1770
Helen Verney Anon., English 1730

bass
Elizabeth Bradley Le Jeune, French 1750

bassoon
Sally Jackson Peter de Köningh 1993, copy of Grenser c. 1810

trumpet
Crispian Steele-Perkins W. Shaw/H. Kent, original English slide trumpet, London 1785–1885

organ
James O'Donnell 5-stop chamber organ by N.P. Mander Ltd

Chorus: soprano (eight) - alto (five) - tenor (five) - bass (six)

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 22, 2011, 10:34:10 AM
However, it is very difficult to judge some other things. Specifically, Haydn wrote "2 sopranos, 4 voices, 2 violins & BC (organ)". But that is like "strings". Does "4 voices" mean a chorus of 4 people? Or does it mean there are 4 choral voice parts and you can put as many on a part as feels right to you? It seems to MY ear that Hickox chose the latter route, but now the rascal has gone and died on us just to avoid answering that question.

Naxos adds this interesting information:

QuoteMissa brevis (1805 revision)
in F major
(Hob.XXII:1; 1749, revised 1805)
In 1789 the German music-publishing firm of Breitkopf and Härtel wrote to Haydn requesting music to publish, and it subsequently issued a two-movement keyboard sonata (Hob.XIV:48) as part of a continuing series Musikalischer Pot-Pourri – or as Haydn sarcastically called it, the 'Musical Vegetable Pot'. Despite Haydn's seeming disdain for their initial collaboration, the firm became Haydn's principal publisher after 1796. Although at first they were not interested in any of Haydn's sacred music, they re-evaluated their decision after the success of The Creation and The Seasons, publishing five of the six late Masses after 1802 (with the exception of the Theresienmesse, which Haydn curiously did not offer the firm). Breitkopf and Härtel's new interest in his vocal music led Haydn to revisit some of his more youthful works, among them the early Missa brevis in F. In 1805 one of Haydn's visitors wrote, 'By chance he had found one of his earliest works, a small Mass... This composition pleased him anew, and now he is adding parts to it, in order that this earliest and perhaps last product of his genius could be presented to Prince Esterházy as a sign of grateful recognition. Haydn significantly expanded the work's orchestration, adding flute, clarinets, bassoons, trumpets and timpani to the setting he had composed over fifty years prior. The Missa brevis may indeed have been presented to Nicolaus II, but the motivation behind the work's reorchestration was likely more mercenary. According to Griesinger, who served as Haydn's liaison to Breitkopf and Härtel, the setting was among twelve works offered for sale in 1805. While the firm purchased the music, most of it (including the revised Missa brevis) never made it into print.

Well, I suppose this will be a long road as this is the just the first entry to the chronological catalogue. And the second one is supposed to be spurious!!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2011, 12:20:59 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 22, 2011, 12:03:46 PM
I totally agree with the highlighted part; but if we believe the notes of the CD, the instrumentation includes bassoon and trumpet.

The exact forces used by Hickox are:

Soloists
Susan Gritton, soprano
Pamela Helen Stephen, mezzo-soprano

Collegium Musicum 90
Richard Hickox, conductor

violin I
Simon Standage David Rubio 1997, copy of a Guarnerius
Micaela Comberti David Rubio 1996, based on Del Gesu 'The Paganini', 1742
Clare Salaman Thomas Smith, 1760
Susan Carpenter-Jacobs Lockey Hill, 1766

violin II
Miles Golding Florianus Bosy, Bologna 1763
Diane Moore Anon., English or Flemish c. 1780
Stephen Bull Anon., Genoese (?), mid-18th century
Ann Monnington Lockey Hill, late-18th century

cello
Richard Tunicliffe Thomas Smith, c. 1770
Helen Verney Anon., English 1730

bass
Elizabeth Bradley Le Jeune, French 1750

bassoon
Sally Jackson Peter de Köningh 1993, copy of Grenser c. 1810

trumpet
Crispian Steele-Perkins W. Shaw/H. Kent, original English slide trumpet, London 1785–1885

organ
James O'Donnell 5-stop chamber organ by N.P. Mander Ltd

Chorus: soprano (eight) - alto (five) - tenor (five) - bass (six)

Naxos adds this interesting information:

Well, I suppose this will be a long road as this is the just the first entry to the chronological catalogue. And the second one is supposed to be spurious!!!

But that mass is on the same disk as the Nelsonmesse. Of course all those players are on there, one has to expect that!! But if you simply listen to the Missa Brevis itself, I guarantee you that there in no more than the 2 sopranos, a small chorus, some strings (I can't tell how many) and the organ playing a rather busy continuo. Unless my ripper selectively filtered out all those instruments. :D :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 22, 2011, 12:29:55 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 22, 2011, 12:20:59 PM
But that mass is on the same disk as the Nelsonmesse. Of course all those players are on there, one has to expect that!! But if you simply listen to the Missa Brevis itself, I guarantee you that there in no more than the 2 sopranos, a small chorus, some strings (I can't tell how many) and the organ playing a rather busy continuo. Unless my ripper selectively filtered out all those instruments. :D :D

You're right, the same disc includes the Nelsonmesse; but the booklet carefully indicates the instruments only included in the Nelson Mass. Those additional instruments are: three first violins, two second violins, four violas, one cello, one bass, two trumpets and timpani. I have excluded those instruments from the previous list.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 22, 2011, 01:00:07 PM

Interestingly I found this version of the Missa brevis F major, with two boys as soloists, based on the (highly improbable) assumption that Haydn (a 17 y.o. boy then) may have composed this work for him and his brother Michael:

http://www.youtube.com/v/JvWBiNZL-xU

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2011, 01:44:43 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 22, 2011, 12:29:55 PM

You're right, the same disc includes the Nelsonmesse; but the booklet carefully indicates the instruments only included in the Nelson Mass. Those additional instruments are: three first violins, two second violins, four violas, one cello, one bass, two trumpets and timpani. I have excluded those instruments from the previous list.

MY booklet doesn't carefully indicate anything like that. You must not have the Complete Mass set, but the singles. Mine does have the quote you quoted from the big text, but the parts outside of that are more limited. That is, it doesn't differentiate the players except on the entire disk.

I just pulled out and listened to the actual CD opposed to the MP3's (which I listened to twice). Other than clearly showing that there are more strings than one would hope for (although it can't be said that "strings" means any certain number), if there is a cello, baß and particularly a bassoon reinforcing the organ's bass, it would be very hard to say it was so. The only other part that I wasn't rather surer about is the beginning of the Benedictus, where a trumpet could actually be playing the part that I feel is the 1st violin part. I waver on that, it could be either.

So where are we going with this, Antoine? Are you advocating that we throw these disks away and find a new performance that is scored better? I actually like this version, even if your worst fears are realized! :o :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2011, 01:53:48 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 22, 2011, 01:00:07 PM
Interestingly I found this version of the Missa brevis F major, with two boys as soloists, based on the (highly improbable) assumption that Haydn (a 17 y.o. boy then) may have composed this work for him and his brother Michael:

Well, that's an interesting performance. It is always possible that he had in mind a chorister from St Stephens, but certainly, by 1749/50 he was not thinking of performing it himself. Notes like that were well outside his range by then, which was the reason he was an ex-chorister! So you're right, highly improbable! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 22, 2011, 01:59:01 PM

Thanks Gurn for starting this chronological discussion of Haydn's works - has already generated plenty of interesting comments, and will give me a chance to review (cull & revise?) my Papa Joe collection; some of those boxes already look quite familiar - ;) :D I can certainly support the Brautigam & Schornsheim recommendations! Keep up the great input! Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2011, 02:05:15 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on October 22, 2011, 01:59:01 PM
Thanks Gurn for starting this chronological discussion of Haydn's works - has already generated plenty of interesting comments, and will give me a chance to review (cull & revise?) my Papa Joe collection; some of those boxes already look quite familiar - ;) :D I can certainly support the Brautigam & Schornsheim recommendations! Keep up the great input! Dave :)

Hey, Dave. Glad you joined us. Well, as you know, I'm not much of a recommender, for me the history aspect was the main thing. However, having to have music to go with the history put me in that position. That's why I am always happy to hear alternative rec's. I know you have a lot of disks, so if you know of an alternative performance, feel free to put it in here. I haven't locked the door on my collection yet; there always room for more! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 22, 2011, 02:39:09 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 22, 2011, 08:09:58 AM
I'm going to start with 1749, Haydn was only 17 years old, recently booted out of the church choir for having his voice change and possibly dipping a neighbor's pigtail in an inkwell. He was totally on his own in Vienna and living in an attic apartment, giving keyboard lessons and learning how to compose. These are his earliest surviving efforts;

1749
Hob 22_01 - Missa Brevis in F
Hob 22_03 - Missa 'rorate coeli desuper'
Collegium musicum 90 / Richard Hickox
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Hickoxmasses.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Yh1Av-J4L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

For the Complete Masses, I own the Naxos box (inserted above) which I find excellent - contains both versions of the Missa Brevis, but not the Hob 22_03 described above - but just another consideration and $32 on the Amazon MP for 8 discs and a superb booklet! :)

P.S. I don't own the Motets - really worth a purchase? Dave :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 22, 2011, 03:38:44 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 22, 2011, 09:46:23 AM
Any other recommendations for Haydn sonatas on pianoforte? The Christine Schornsheim set is tempting but a little pricey for me at the moment. I currently own several Jando/Naxos discs and one from Emanuel Ax, I throughly enjoy them, but have been bitten by the pianoforte bug ever since I purchased The Last 4 Piano Trios with Robert Levin on Sony Classical.

Well, you could end your dilemma by buying one of the big boxes w/ Schorsheim or Brautigam - own both and excellent choices - not sure if you might pick up just one, which I would suggest even suggest?

Now just to 'throw in' another less expensive but not complete option, i.e. Anreas Staier on several different fortepianos - I picked this one up cheaply (and still is on Amazon MP) as a member of the GMG club years ago - 3 CDs - I've not listen to these recordings in a while but remember not liking them as much as the others mentioned on this instrument, so might want to wait for others to 'chime in' - a rather negative review is available on MusicWeb HERE (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2005/May05/Haydn_Staier_82876673762.htm), but my feeling is that the reviewer is NOT a fortepiano enthusiast? :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51AUb9MfkkL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2011, 03:54:05 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on October 22, 2011, 02:39:09 PM
For the Complete Masses, I own the Naxos box (inserted above) which I find excellent - contains both versions of the Missa Brevis, but not the Hob 22_03 described above - but just another consideration and $32 on the Amazon MP for 8 discs and a superb booklet! :)

P.S. I don't own the Motets - really worth a purchase? Dave :D

Well, the #3, the "rorate coeli desuper" in G major, is one of those early works that is problematic. I think that a set could go either way, have it or not have it, and not be wrong. I don't want to type out all the various ideas about it (although basically Haydn's claim in 1805 about writing something in 1749 could well be mistaken), but the current thinking is that it might have been a student mass when he was learning from Reutter at St. Stephens, and thus be a little of Haydn, a little of Reutter. It is scarcely 7 minutes long (although with good reason, since it does really stylishly cool things like singing 4 different lines of text at the same time). Anyway, it's nothing to buy a box set for! (Nice to have if it came along for the ride with something else though).

The motets are really quite nice. He hadn't surpassed Bach yet in the motet department, but that doesn't make it not good. I just re-listened to them after your question. Thanks for that. :) They are quite nice, but like the Mass in G above, not something I would buy a box set for. They are here in the Weil set that was only sold in the Benelux Countries, it has several pieces that the version sold worldwide doesn't have. I don't know another recording of them (although there likely is one). :)

EDIT: Added picture
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnWeilMassesCompletecover.jpg)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
The Hanover Band; Goodman - Hob 01_077 Symphony in Bb 1st mvmt - Vivace

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 22, 2011, 04:03:27 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 22, 2011, 08:35:39 AM
By 1753, however, there are many pieces still with us. There seem to be 2 preoccupations now musically. The first, which he spoke of fondly in later years, was the street serenading that was so very popular in Vienna. For a high-spirited 19 year old, dirt-poor musician with many friends in the business, writing and playing serenades and divertimentos was big fun. Secondly would seem to be keyboard music, both private (sonatas & variations) and public (church concertos that accomplished learning, financial and 'making contacts'). Here is what I have from 1753:

Hob 02_02 - Divertimento a cinque in G for Strings
Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HussHaydnEarlyDivertimenticover.jpg)

Boy, I can just imagine the atmosphere of late 18th century Vienna - must have been a wonderful period (as long as you had a good health insurance plan! ;) ;D); but I do have some of Papa Haydn's Divertimenti, but may not be as 'period oriented' as preferred by Gurn (or me for that matter but enjoy the ones below):

Divertimentos for Wind w/ Consortium Classicum - bargain 4-disc set; brief liner notes by Klöcker - older recordings but still quite enjoyable for the price of admission!

Seven Divertimenti w/ the London Wind Soloists recorded in 1967 (so not period), but a disc that I've owned for ages and thoroughly enjoy - these wind works by Papa Haydn really can be performed in a number of quite enjoyable manners! Dave :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BHbaCur9L._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/514ucPX5-UL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 22, 2011, 04:05:10 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 22, 2011, 01:44:43 PM
MY booklet doesn't carefully indicate anything like that. You must not have the Complete Mass set, but the singles. Mine does have the quote you quoted from the big text, but the parts outside of that are more limited. That is, it doesn't differentiate the players except on the entire disk.

Well, I'll give you a tip, Gurn. I also have the Complete Mass set, but some years ago (when I purchased a big Chandos anniversary box set), I discovered that these Chandos guys are really nice chaps and they have all their booklets available online. For instance, this one: http://www.chandos.net/pdf/CHAN%200640.pdf

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 22, 2011, 01:44:43 PM
So where are we going with this, Antoine? Are you advocating that we throw these disks away and find a new performance that is scored better? I actually like this version, even if your worst fears are realized!

No, not at all. I also like that Chandos version. But I consider extraordinarily beautiful to imagine the old Haydn revising this old composition, written 55 years before when he was a teenager. Anyway, just for the record, I will say that the Naxos set includes 2 versions of this mass (1749 & 1749 revised), both of them heavenly sung by two delicious sopranos: Ann Hoyt and Julie Liston.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2011, 04:19:56 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on October 22, 2011, 04:03:27 PM
Boy, I can just imagine the atmosphere of late 18th century Vienna - must have been a wonderful period (as long as you had a good health insurance plan! ;) ;D); but I do have some of Papa Haydn's Divertimenti, but may not be as 'period oriented' as preferred by Gurn (or me for that matter but enjoy the ones below):

Divertimentos for Wind w/ Consortium Classicum - bargain 4-disc set; brief liner notes by Klöcker - older recordings but still quite enjoyable for the price of admission!

Seven Divertimenti w/ the London Wind Soloists recorded in 1967 (so not period), but a disc that I've owned for ages and thoroughly enjoy - these wind works by Papa Haydn really can be performed in a number of quite enjoyable manners! Dave :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BHbaCur9L._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/514ucPX5-UL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

:D
Agreed, health was worth its weight in gold back then, because if you couldn't fight it off on your own it was adios! I think my diverticulitis of a couple years back would have been a tad more fatal with just "black powder" to fight it off... :-\

Anyway, I enjoy both of those disks/sets you mentioned. The London Wind Soloists, despite being, as you say "so not period", were among the very best wind players of their generation, and they do a very earnest job playing Haydn damn well.

The Klöcker set is another fine box of entertainment. It has the pathological defect of having virtually none of the works actually being by Haydn, but I don't let that stop me enjoying it, nor should anyone else. The Huss box pictured there has only works that are verifiable as by Haydn. So many nice things are left off. But some things that show up are real rarities, like that "String Quintet" I mentioned, which this is the only extant recording of it, and Hob 14_01 which is the only one of those works for keyboard, 2 violins and bass that has 2 horns added in. It is an expensive little box, but I recommend it wholeheartedly to one and all. Damn, it is very nice!

8)

----------------
Now playing:
The Hanover Band; Goodman - Hob 01_078 Symphony in c 1st mvmt - Vivace

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2011, 04:26:26 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 22, 2011, 04:05:10 PM
Well, I'll give you a tip, Gurn. I also have the Complete Mass set, but some years ago (when I purchased a big Chandos anniversary box set), I discovered that these Chandos guys are really nice chaps and they have all their booklets available online. For instance, this one: http://www.chandos.net/pdf/CHAN%200640.pdf

Ah, I knew that, but didn't check in this instance because I thought the huge book in the Complete was, well, complete! It's thick as a brick, after all. :-\

QuoteNo, not at all. I also like that Chandos version. But I consider extraordinarily beautiful to imagine the old Haydn revising this old composition, written 55 years before when he was a teenager. Anyway, just for the record, I will say that the Naxos set includes 2 versions of this mass (1749 & 1749 revised), both of them heavenly sung by two delicious sopranos: Ann Hoyt and Julie Liston.

OK, I was just checking where you were coming from and going to. I was eminently happy with the Hickox, despite that it sounds a trifle 'big'. But it's a learning process all the time, you know? Ever since I asked here 8 years ago what people thought that "and strings" meant vis-a-vis precise numbers (and got no answers!), and then I discovered that S-A-T-B could just as easily mean 4S-4A-4T-4B and I wouldn't know it, I have been doubting whether anything I 'know' is right. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
The Hanover Band; Goodman - Hob 01_078 Symphony in c 2nd mvmt - Adagio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 22, 2011, 04:33:34 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 22, 2011, 04:19:56 PM
The Huss box pictured there has only works that are verifiable as by Haydn. So many nice things are left off. But some things that show up are real rarities, like that "String Quintet" I mentioned, which this is the only extant recording of it, and Hob 14_01 which is the only one of those works for keyboard, 2 violins and bass that has 2 horns added in. It is an expensive little box, but I recommend it wholeheartedly to one and all. Damn, it is very nice!

Damn, Gurn! You really know where to hit. I've been watching this set for several months, but it's quite expensive. But I suppose these discs will be essential school materials for this new project.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2011, 04:40:21 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 22, 2011, 04:33:34 PM
Damn, Gurn! You really know where to hit. I've been watching this set for several months, but it's quite expensive. But I suppose these discs will be essential school materials for this new project.

:D I waited for 2 years for BIS to release that box. That's where I 'met' Anna in Stockholm, she used to keep me apprised of its slow progress through the system. And I bought it the day it was released. The fact is, this is the only disk I have ever done that with. Glad I did though.

I haven't shopped for it recently, what sort of $$$ do they want for it these days? I paid $50 at Arkiv, a bargain by any definition.

And yes, essential material. There will be a quiz after... :D :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Manfred Huss - Haydn Sinfonietta Wien - Hob 01a_16 Orlando Paladino: Sinfonia in Bb

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 22, 2011, 05:07:27 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 22, 2011, 04:40:21 PM
:D I waited for 2 years for BIS to release that box. That's where I 'met' Anna in Stockholm, she used to keep me apprised of its slow progress through the system. And I bought it the day it was released. The fact is, this is the only disk I have ever done that with. Glad I did though.

I haven't shopped for it recently, what sort of $$$ do they want for it these days? I paid $50 at Arkiv, a bargain by any definition.

And yes, essential material. There will be a quiz after... :D :D

$60 plus some $15 for sh. & h. costs, plus $15 or $20 from customs. I would say around $90 or $95 for me. Well, school duties are first. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2011, 05:12:03 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 22, 2011, 05:07:27 PM
$60 plus some $15 for sh. & h. costs, plus $15 or $20 from customs. I would say around $90 or $95 for me. Well, school duties are first. :D

Ouch! :'( That really hurts! I don't know if it shows up on your browser, but on Amazon US (and Archiv too, now that I think about it) a lot of times you will see it says "Import". Nearly always the price is outrageous when it does. I think now that this isn't going in Amazon's pocket, but rather it is a duty to customs. It doesn't say that, but I doubt that Amazon would sell it at that price if they didn't have to. This is the origin of the $35 single disks. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 22, 2011, 05:19:39 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 22, 2011, 05:12:03 PM
Ouch! :'( That really hurts! I don't know if it shows up on your browser, but on Amazon US (and Archiv too, now that I think about it) a lot of times you will see it says "Import". Nearly always the price is outrageous when it does. I think now that this isn't going in Amazon's pocket, but rather it is a duty to customs. It doesn't say that, but I doubt that Amazon would sell it at that price if they didn't have to. This is the origin of the $35 single disks. :-\

Anyway in the meantime I can use my NML subscription to listen to the entire Bis catalogue.

BTW, Gurn, your idea has had a collateral effect. Today I have been listening to Haydn all the day what has been a refreshing change of pace because during the last months I have been totally trapped by Bach and sometimes it's good to take a break.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2011, 05:26:58 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 22, 2011, 05:19:39 PM
Anyway in the meantime I can use my NML subscription to listen to the entire Bis catalogue.

BTW, Gurn, your idea has had a collateral effect. Today I have been listening to Haydn all the day what has been a refreshing change of pace because during the last months I have been totally trapped by Bach and sometimes it's good to take a break.

I can't tell you how pleased I am to be able to help get you out of that rut, Antoine.... :D

I can only take Bach in small doses. It isn't right for people to think I don't like his music, it just completely tires me out. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 22, 2011, 05:41:42 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 22, 2011, 05:26:58 PM
I can't tell you how pleased I am to be able to help get you out of that rut, Antoine.... :D

I knew you wouldn't waste the chance. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2011, 05:46:00 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 22, 2011, 05:41:42 PM
I knew you wouldn't waste the chance. ;D

My reliability is legendary. :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Tafelmusik; Lamon Bylsma - Hob 07b_2 Concerto in D for Cello 3rd mvmt - Rondo: Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 22, 2011, 07:02:32 PM

Just some added data from the Naxos box
The 1749 version of the Missa Brevis was recorded with the following forces:
Five sopranos plus the two soprano soloists, five altos, five tenors, five basses; eight violins, one 'cello, one double bass, and organ.
The 1805 version was recorded with the same number of singers and musicians, plus the following:
two violas, one flute, two clarinets, two bassoons, two trumpets and one timpani.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2011, 07:10:02 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 22, 2011, 07:02:32 PM
Just some added data from the Naxos box
The 1749 version of the Missa Brevis was recorded with the following forces:
Five sopranos plus the two soprano soloists, five altos, five tenors, five basses; eight violins, one 'cello, one double bass, and organ.
The 1805 version was recorded with the same number of singers and musicians, plus the following:
two violas, one flute, two clarinets, two bassoons, two trumpets and one timpani.

Very interesting, thanks for that info, Jeffrey. BTW, do you like that set? Do you have others to compare it to? You have probably said so already, but my memory is notorious... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 22, 2011, 07:39:12 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 22, 2011, 07:10:02 PM
Very interesting, thanks for that info, Jeffrey. BTW, do you like that set? Do you have others to compare it to? You have probably said so already, but my memory is notorious... :)

8)

Like it, but have no others.
It doesn't contain that little five minute mass (which the liner notes call spurious) but it does contain the Stabat Mater, 8 CDs in all.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 22, 2011, 07:59:23 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 22, 2011, 07:39:12 PM
Like it, but have no others.
It doesn't contain that little five minute mass (which the liner notes call spurious) but it does contain the Stabat Mater, 8 CDs in all.

Yes, currently many people consider spurious the Missa brevis Rorate coeli desuper Hob. XXII:3. Today I did read this mass was rediscovered in 1957 by Robbins Landon at the Göttweig Abbey. Sometimes is attributed to Georg Reutter. A typical performance should last between 7 and 8 minutes.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on October 23, 2011, 07:39:11 AM

Quote from: marvinbrown on October 23, 2011, 07:37:27 AM
I agree. Arrau's recording of Chopin's Noctures are magical. He brings so much heart and soul to these works.

Looking to buy my first ever COMPLETE set of Haydn string quartets and seriously considering this:

[asin]B001QBXFTA[/asin]

marvin

Hi Marvin - also consider the complete recordings of Kodaly Qt. on Naxos. (Now I go and hide for cover from the HIPsters!) ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 23, 2011, 09:01:47 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 22, 2011, 08:35:39 AM
Hob 02_02 - Divertimento a cinque in G for Strings
Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HussHaydnEarlyDivertimenticover.jpg)

Hob 16_01 Sonata #10 in C for Keyboard
Yuko Wataya
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/413RpUvh4eL-1.jpg)

Hob 17_07 5 Variations in D for Keyboard
Christine Schornsheim
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/SchornsheimHaydn-2.jpg)

New Dusseldorf Hofmusik / Utiger Christine Schornsheim
Hob 18_02 Concerto in D for Harpsichord
Hob 18_05 Concerto in C for Harpsichord
Hob 18_08 Concerto in C for Organ
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/ConcertosSchornsheim.jpg)

Hob 18_10 Concerto in C for Organ
Divertimento Salzburg / Haselböck
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/DivertimentoSalzburgHaydncover.jpg)

I would like to move forward today beyond the early sacred music, perhaps to talk about the 1753 works, the "string quintet" and the concertos in particular. I have a few thoughts on these works, and I'll toss them in, but am hoping to get some input from anyone else who might be interested in them. Also in here I note the first works for solo keyboard, a sonata and a set of variations. In an unheralded way, except among Haydnistos, Haydn went on to become possibly the master of variations, inventing the double variation form, for example. Here is his earliest surviving go at it, Hob 17:7. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on October 23, 2011, 09:16:59 AM

Just a quick, distracting note before I hand the mic. back to Gurn. ;)

Something I came across just now. The previous incarnation was as Blu-Ray discs -- these are plain, old audio CDs.

[asin]B0000502AH[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 23, 2011, 09:53:02 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on October 23, 2011, 09:16:59 AM
Just a quick, distracting note before I hand the mic. back to Gurn. ;)

Something I came across just now. The previous incarnation was as Blu-Ray discs -- these are plain, old audio CDs.

[asin]B0000502AH[/asin]

Well, it sure distracted me! How did you happen across that, Navneeth? Now I have it pre-ordered already. Beghin is not only an excellent keyboardist but he is also a Haydn scholar. I've read a couple of his essays (but not his book yet), and he is very interesting. I was rather disappointed to see that set only on Blu-Ray, since I didn't want to invest in the equipment just yet. So this is awesome! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 23, 2011, 09:58:36 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on October 23, 2011, 09:16:59 AM
Just a quick, distracting note before I hand the mic. back to Gurn. ;)

Something I came across just now. The previous incarnation was as Blu-Ray discs -- these are plain, old audio CDs.

[asin]B0000502AH[/asin]

Holy cow! You have talked briefly, but very well, Navneeth.

I have the Blu-Ray discs, but I definitely need the CD-set.

It's a totally mandatory investment as Tom Beghin is a superb performer, playing on equally superb replicas of period fortepianos, harpsichords and clavichords.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on October 23, 2011, 10:06:47 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 23, 2011, 09:53:02 AM
How did you happen across that, Navneeth?

I was simply scouring the interwebs for future releases to salivate over. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 23, 2011, 10:43:23 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 23, 2011, 09:01:47 AM
I would like to move forward today beyond the early sacred music, perhaps to talk about the 1753 works, the "string quintet" and the concertos in particular. I have a few thoughts on these works, and I'll toss them in, but am hoping to get some input from anyone else who might be interested in them. Also in here I note the first works for solo keyboard, a sonata and a set of variations. In an unheralded way, except among Haydnistos, Haydn went on to become possibly the master of variations, inventing the double variation form, for example. Here is his earliest surviving go at it, Hob 17:7. :)

8)

OK, I'll start then. Actually, we won't be moving as far away from sacred music as it might seem. The concertos for organ (or harpsichord) and 2 violins (parts) & Basso, were most likely composed, as was the style of the times in Austria, to be played during church services. A likely time would be during communion, or during some other liturgical 'silent spot'. Sinfonias were also used sometimes. Haydn was a freelance musician at that time. He gave lessons on the keyboard, and he took lessons in composition from Porpora. He also played at any possible opportunity to make money, weddings, Bar Mitzvah's (OK, I made that one up! :D ), serenading, and in 2 churches in Vienna, he played the organ. The most likely thing is that he wrote these concertos both for practice and to use in church. When they were finally published, 10 or more years later, they were listed as 'for the Clavicembalo', which is simply 'for the keyboard'. But they betray their origin as organ works by the range they require. That these three,

Hob 18_02 Concerto in D for Harpsichord
Hob 18_05 Concerto in C for Harpsichord
Hob 18_08 Concerto in C for Organ

are assigned to 1753 seems to me to be just good guessing. Although I can't offer a better guess, so I'm good with it. :)

Comments?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: marvinbrown on October 23, 2011, 11:33:45 AM

Ok this is really getting confusing. I was seriously considering this set:

[asin]B001QBXFTA[/asin]

But then ChamberNut proposed this:

[asin]B001GVA7DW[/asin]

Then I saw and read favourable reviews about this set:

[asin]B0000501PC[/asin]
And I also saw this:

[asin]B001V7SG8E[/asin]

Sampling is proving to lead nowhere as the snippets are never long enough for me to make an fully informed decision. Now what do I do??? :-\

marvin

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 23, 2011, 11:35:55 AM

Quote from: marvinbrown on October 23, 2011, 11:13:48 AM
PS: my quest for the my first COMPLETE recording of Haydn's string quartets continues.........

Unfortunately a previous decision is required: period or modern instruments? I think this is a territory where this decision is extremely important. I like, for instance, Beethoven in period performances, but I also fully enjoy his piano sonatas, symphonies and so played on modern instruments. But I consider the importance of period period instruments in Haydn is quite more essential than in Beethoven or Brahms to mention two names.

I would distinguish:

1.- Radical HIP: Quatuor Festetics (Arcana)

2.- HIP even for people who don't usually enjoy HIP performances: Quatuor Mosaïques (Naïve, although their cycle is far of being complete)

3.- Pseudo-HIP: Buchberger Quartet (Brilliant Classics)

4.- Modern instruments: Aeolian Quartet (Decca), The Angeles String Quartet (Philips), Tatrai Quartet (Hungaroton) & Kodaly Quartet (Naxos).

1 & 2 are my favorites, but I have previously made some decisions about this point. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on October 23, 2011, 12:00:15 PM

Quote from: marvinbrown on October 23, 2011, 11:33:45 AM
Ok this is really getting confusing.

Sampling is proving to lead nowhere as the snippets are never long enough for me to make an fully informed decision. Now what do I do??? :-\

marvin

Marvin, perhaps you need to buy a few (2 or 3) and varying performance styles (1. HIP 2. HIP on modern instruments and 3. Modern instruments) before buying a complete set? Perhaps buy 3 (one in each performance styles) of the Op. 76 and Op. 20 quartets, then you can make a decision of buying a complete set?

Just a thought.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: prémont on October 23, 2011, 12:01:02 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 23, 2011, 11:35:55 AM
Pseudo-HIP

Well, some further elaboration seems to be needed.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 23, 2011, 12:22:17 PM

Deciding on the importance of period instruments vs modern would be one way to narrow the choices, but I think fundamentally, your question is: how do they differ and what do each group bring to their set? I am not the best to answer that, but I can say that of those I have heard and those I have read about - it seems that all of them are pretty good (so you really cannot go wrong). I was recently deciding myself this same issue, and I decided to try a few different versions first to see which I would prefer (and perhaps I will continue that way). Also, youtube does have some longer clips, and while not in best sound, should help you to decide which you prefer.

I wouldn't worry about picking the 'best' one. It's like Wagner Ring cycles - each is different, bring their own strengths, and have their own insights that are different (not necessarily better).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on October 23, 2011, 12:23:12 PM

Quote from: marvinbrown on October 23, 2011, 11:33:45 AM
Sampling is proving to lead nowhere as the snippets are never long enough for me to make an fully informed decision. Now what do I do??? :-\

Why sample these days? Between Spotify, Naxos, & Mog (and I used to use Rhapsody before they messed up their service levels)--not to mention various non-authorized downloads--I can usually hear full selections of almost anything over the internet before buying.

I do not have a complete set, only the 20-some works recorded by Quatuor Mosaïques, and they more than satisfy me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: marvinbrown on October 23, 2011, 12:26:34 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 23, 2011, 11:35:55 AM
Unfortunately a previous decision is required: period or modern instruments? I think this is a territory where this decision is extremely important. I like, for instance, Beethoven in period performances, but I also fully enjoy his piano sonatas, symphonies and so played on modern instruments. But I consider the importance of period period instruments in Haydn is quite more essential than in Beethoven or Brahms to mention two names.

I would distinguish:

1.- Radical HIP: Quatuor Festetics (Arcana)

2.- HIP even for people who don't usually enjoy HIP performances: Quatuor Mosaïques (Naïve, although their cycle is far of being complete)

3.- Pseudo-HIP: Buchberger Quartet (Brilliant Classics)

4.- Modern instruments: Aeolian Quartet (Decca), The Angeles String Quartet (Philips), Tatrai Quartet (Hungaroton) & Kodaly Quartet (Naxos).

1 & 2 are my favorites, but I have previously made some decisions about this point. :)

Thank you Antoine Marchand for providing me with a template of the various styles that I SHOULD be considering! I say should because I have not taken these into consideration. As a general rule I am not an HIP affectionado. But then again I tend to be a bit of a purist in the sense that I can not accept the concept of playing J.S.Bach on the piano. I also have Mozart's clarinet concerto K622 on the basset clarinet, the instrument he composed it for. So I guess I am quite open to the idea of HIP.

From what I can see I am going to have to buy a few recordings here and there to see what I like. It is too risky to buy a complete set and be dissatisfied with it.

Marvin

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 23, 2011, 12:52:52 PM

Quote from: marvinbrown on October 23, 2011, 12:26:34 PM
Thank you Antoine Marchand for providing me with a template of the various styles that I SHOULD be considering! I say should because I have not taken these into consideration. As a general rule I am not an HIP affectionado. But then again I tend to be a bit of a purist in the sense that I can not accept the concept of playing J.S.Bach on the piano. I also have Mozart's clarinet concerto K622 on the basset clarinet, the instrument he composed it for. So I guess I am quite open to the idea of HIP.

From what I can see I am going to have to buy a few recordings here and there to see what I like. It is too risky to buy a complete set and be dissatisfied with it.

Marvin

You're welcome, Marvin.

If I decided to do a bet, I think you would probably enjoy very much the Quatuor Mosaïques. If I am not totally wrong, your general attitude regarding the HIP movement it is not very different to David Ross or Sarge. And both of them have said great things about the Mosaïques.

Additionally, their ten discs are currently sold as two box sets:

[asin]B001F0K004[/asin]
[Opp. 64, 76, 77]

[asin]B001F0JZZU[/asin]
[Opp. 20 & 33; The Seven Last Words of Our Savior]

The first box set contains the most popular stuff, but I would prefer to choose the latter as first choice. That opus 20 is just superb and the Last Seven Words (string quartet version, of course) deep and beautiful. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on October 23, 2011, 01:02:51 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 23, 2011, 12:52:52 PM
You're welcome, Marvin.

If I decided to do a bet, I think you would probably enjoy very much the Quatuor Mosaïques. If I am not totally wrong, your general attitude regarding the HIP movement it is not very different to David Ross or Sarge.
And both of them have said great things about the Mosaïques.

Additionally, their ten discs are currently sold as two box sets:

The first box set contains the most popular stuff, but I would prefer to choose the latter as first choice. That opus 20 is just superb and the Last Seven Words (string quartet version, of course) deep and beautiful. :)

Antoine's recommendation of the Mosaiques for you is wholeheartedly seconded!!
It's terrific and you can always complete the Haydn Quartets elsewhere with other quartets, exploring into either direction of HIPness/nonHIPness. These, meanwhile, are simply wonderful--no issues of yes-HIP or no-HIP (need) come into that evaluation.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bulldog on October 23, 2011, 01:16:18 PM

Considering that Marvin is far from settled concerning performance style, the idea of acquiring a complete set is likely not a good one. Better to acquire single discs or very small sets. I do agree that the Mosaiques sounds like the best way to go.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 23, 2011, 01:21:37 PM

Quote from: (: premont :) on October 23, 2011, 12:01:02 PM
Well, some further elaboration seems to be needed.

I think it exists certain misunderstanding about the Buchbergers because their (modernized) period instruments are listed in their booklets and they play with few vibrato; but I think they sound as the typical modern string quartets from the middle of the seventies. Nothing wrong about this, but very different to the Festetics and the Mosaïques.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on October 23, 2011, 02:58:19 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 23, 2011, 01:21:37 PM
I think it exists certain misunderstanding about the Buchbergers because their (modernized) period instruments are listed in their
booklets and they play with few vibrato; but I think they sound as the typical modern string quartets from the middle of the
seventies. Nothing wrong about this, but very different to the Festetics and the Mosaïques.

That's about right...

but it should be noted that Festetics and Mosaïques are probably even further from each other than Buchberger and, say, Festetics -- HIP or not.

QuoteFrom http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=2259 (http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=2259) about op.33 -- but valid pretty much throughout.

Pitch: The Buchbergers, although 'HIP', play at A=440 Herz, like the 'modern' groups. [...]
Phrasing: the Buchbergers and the Festetics tend towards shortened phrases, and rougher bowing, but the Mosaïques don't [...] the Frankfurt-based Buchberger Quartet manages to be brash, casual, and wild with a far more professional aftertaste.
Tempos: The Buchbergers' are the most consistently fastest of the performing groups, but in individual movements the Casals Quartet attempts to break speed records...Quatuors Festetics and Mosaïques meanwhile take the most time,

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on October 23, 2011, 04:36:37 PM

Quote from: Opus106 on October 23, 2011, 09:16:59 AM
Just a quick, distracting note before I hand the mic. back to Gurn. ;)

Something I came across just now. The previous incarnation was as Blu-Ray discs -- these are plain, old audio CDs.

Crimeny. That reminds me: I've had the Blu-Ray version for what... over two years now and for lack of access to a player I've still not listened to it. Same with Weinberg's The Passenger. Hmmm...
I suppose it will have to wait a little longer.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 23, 2011, 04:39:26 PM

Quote from: jlaurson on October 23, 2011, 04:36:37 PM
Crimeny. That reminds me: I've had the Blu-Ray version for what... over two years now and for lack of access to a player I've still not listened to it. Same with Weinberg's The Passenger. Hmmm...
I suppose it will have to wait a little longer.

Exactly why I didn't get it yet. Not that I had a hope of a CD version release, that's totally a surprise. But I was actually planning on doing what you did while it was still available in the hope that one day I would get the equipment. I think you will like Beghin, he is a very talented player. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 23, 2011, 05:47:39 PM

Part 4

1754 - 55

1754 & 1755 are, once again, very short on surviving works. It is very unlikely that Haydn didn't compose, perhaps even prodigiously, in this time period. The fact that the works from 1756 onward are so polished, even in comparison to those of his older contemporaries, seems to indicate that he was working pretty hard on technique and developing his own style as he went along.

Last Part, we talked about meeting various famous personages, such as Gluck and Wagenseil while in the company of Porpora and Metastasio. Also, assisting in the training of 'Fräulein Martinez'. Access to such personages – whose overlapping relations were as much social as artistic – was essential for an aspiring young musician. 'Fräulein Martinez' was the composer and singer Marianne von Martínez. At the court of Joseph Friedrich, Prince of Sachsen-Hildburghausen (1702–87), Haydn would also have encountered Dittersdorf (whom he certainly knew by the mid-1750s) and Giuseppe Bonno, later Hofkapellmeister.

All these events took place during the first half of the 1750s. Haydn's instruction of Martínez began in 1751 or 1752; presumably his three years with Metastasio were from 1751 to 1754. Porpora arrived in Vienna from Dresden in late 1752 or early 1753; Haydn might well have met him in March 1753, when Metastasio was considering him as composer of his new opera L'isola disabitata (which in the event he assigned to Bonno; Haydn himself set this libretto in 1779). Given the mastery of Haydn's music by 1755–6, 1753 or 1754 are the latest plausible dates for his having 'learnt the true fundamentals of composition' from Porpora, whose expert knowledge of singing and Italian ('singing' in this context implies Italian opera and oratorio) was also of great importance; Haydn became fluent in Italian and the Italianate singing style. In addition, it may well have been at Porpora's instigation that he systematically worked through Fux's Gradus ad Parnassum (the only work mentioned by any source that offers 'true fundamentals'). After his death, his copy of Fux was found in his library, heavily used and annotated.

Here, then, is the surviving music of 1754-55;

1754
Hob 02_09 Divertimento a nove Stromenti in G for 2 Oboes, 2 Horns, 2 Violins, 2 Violas & Baß
Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnEarlyDivertimenticover.jpg)

1755
Hob 16_05 Sonata #8 in A for Keyboard (Cembalo)
Christine Schornsheim
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardSchornsheimHaydn.jpg)

As mentioned earlier, we are going to see divertimentos for a while! This is his first major instrumental work and a very fine one. As was not unusual in those days, a lot of works fall under the "Divertimento Umbrella". This one, however, is one, in the classic sense, with a movement scheme of 1. Fast (Allegro molto) 2. Dance I (Minuet) 3. Slow (Adagio cantabile), 4. Dance II (Minuet) and 5. Fast (Finale: Presto). Huss and Co. do an excellent job with this work, as they seem always to do. Their invaluable box set saves us yet again from wondering what this work might sound like, since I haven't found another version of it to compare. Fortunately, I don't need one! :)

The survivor from c. 1755 is the A major keyboard sonata. This is one of those works that don't have solid authentication. We'll see more of those, for sure! It is attributed to Haydn, and as yet, it has never been attributed to anyone else, so it is accepted with reservations. My personal feeling is that if we only accept works that we actually saw him compose, our own legacy from that age will be sadly diminished. Nonetheless, it is a delightful little work (12:35) in 3 movements ending with a zippy presto. It is performed here by Schornsheim in her inimitable way, on a Dowd double manual harpsichord with a lovely tone.

And that's it for these years. Beginning next year, we will see the composer begin to bloom, as the hard work and learning of the previous six years bear fruit. But do enjoy these works, they are a taste of things to come. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 23, 2011, 10:02:21 PM

The primary questions are about timbre, phrasing, balance, tempo and texture, tautness and relaxedness. And I would say that the big differences here don't follow the HIP/non-HIP boundary. To take a example Festetics use PI and Tatrai don't but in terms of overall sound they have some things in common.

I also think it's silly (not to mince words) to plunge into a big box of everything by one quartet just because I think it's unlikely that any ensemble is equally inspired everywhere. And there are so many different interesting ways to play this music.

For example, even if you love Festetics' rather distinctive timbre. you may not want them in Op 71.

By the way I'm not a fan of Mosaiques though I can see that they're suppleness and liveliness is entertaining, diverting and anodyne . For example I think in Op 64 they're shallow compared to Festetics. Just listen to their Op 64/2/ii compared with Festetics and you'll see what I mean.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: marvinbrown on October 24, 2011, 02:53:41 AM

I really enjoyed reading everyone's comments and feedback. You all have given me much to think about. I have decided against a COMPLETE set at the moment. Obviously I'd like to keep the cost of "exploration" down so I have decided to start with a few Naxos recordings, which are affordable, of the "popular" string quartets and see where that leads. I will search the local library to see if they have any recordings with various ensembles I can check out. I'd like to experiment a bit here.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 24, 2011, 02:57:02 AM

Quote from: marvinbrown on October 24, 2011, 02:53:41 AM

I really enjoyed reading everyone's comments and feedback. You all have given me much to think about. I have decided against a COMPLETE set at the moment. Obviously I'd like to keep the cost of "exploration" down so I have decided to start with a few Naxos recordings of the "popular" string quartets and see where that leads. I will search the local library to see if they have any recordings I can check out. I'd like to expirement a bit here.

I think that is a good way to start. Not too long ago, and I think it was in one of the haydn threads, I asked for some rec's about individual recordings of each Opus. I'll link it if (when) I find it.

EDIT: Here (start with post 829): http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3866.820.html (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3866.820.html)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on October 24, 2011, 02:59:06 AM

Quote from: marvinbrown on October 24, 2011, 02:53:41 AM
I really enjoyed reading everyone's comments and feedback. You all have given me much to think about. I have decided against a COMPLETE set at the moment. Obviously I'd like to keep the cost of "exploration" down so I have decided to start with a few Naxos recordings, which are affordable, of the "popular" string quartets and see where that leads. I will search the local library to see if they have any recordings with various ensembles I can check out. I'd like to experiment a bit here.

In that case, let's hope you come across this recording, too:
http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=553
Haydn 2009 – Minetti Quartet(t) (//http://)
Among the recent Haydn, a treasure. (As is the Quatuor Ebene's [Mirare], in case that pops up in the library)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 24, 2011, 04:48:07 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 23, 2011, 10:02:21 PM
The primary questions are about timbre, phrasing, balance, tempo and texture, tautness and relaxedness. And I would say that the big differences here don't follow the HIP/non-HIP boundary. To take a example Festetics use PI and Tatrai don't but in terms of overall sound they have some things in common.

I disagree. I think the use of properly restored period instruments (or copies of them) is essential for Haydn. Their tone, palette of colors and warmness make a huge difference in terms of texture and balance. Obviously the HIP movement (being a reaction against the Romantic standardization) doesn't search for any kind of uniformity and that's the reason why the Festetics and the Mosaïques are quite different from the point of view of the interpretation (specially tempi and articulation): the Festetics being like a party at home and the Mosaïques as a sort of "symphonic" chamber music. Personally, I prefer the first approach.

Off-topic: I would recommend to all those members who really want to evaluate the real impact of period instruments in music, to avoid compressed files (MP3). IMO those files are another great enemy of period instruments.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 24, 2011, 05:20:08 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 24, 2011, 04:48:07 AM
I disagree. I think the use of properly restored period instruments (or copies of them) is essential for Haydn. Their tone, palette of colors and warmness make a huge difference in terms of texture and balance. Obviously the HIP movement (being a reaction against the Romantic standardization) doesn't search for any kind of uniformity and that's the reason why the Festetics and the Mosaïques are quite different from the point of view of the interpretation (specially tempi and articulation): the Festetics being like a party at home and the Mosaïques as a sort of "symphonic" chamber music. Personally, I prefer the first approach.

Off-topic: I would recommend to all those members who really want to evaluate the real impact of period instruments in music, to avoid compressed files (MP3). IMO those files are another great enemy of period instruments.

But the tone, palette of colors and warmness of the Apponyi is so different from the Festetics. And the tone of Festetics has I think something in common with the Tatrai (Hungarianness :)) That's why I say that the important questions are independent of HIP/non-HIP.

Do you think that certain balances are more likely with PI? That would be interesting -- but could you say more?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on October 24, 2011, 07:33:30 AM

I have had and enjoyed the Ab Koster recording of the Mozart horn quartets and just recently discovered his Haydn disc of natural horn works, recorded with the L'Archibudelli ensemble, a group that has yet to disappoint me.

A very enjoyable listen.

Haydn: The Natural Horn

Performer: Ab Koster, L'Archibudelli
Composer: Franz Josef Haydn
Audio CD (December 10, 1996)
Number of Discs: 1
Label: Sony

[asin]B000002BZN[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 24, 2011, 08:15:17 AM

Quote from: Arnold on October 24, 2011, 07:33:30 AM
I have had and enjoyed the Ab Koster recording of the Mozart horn quartets and just recently discovered his Haydn disc of natural horn works, recorded with the L'Archibudelli ensemble, a group that has yet to disappoint me.

A very enjoyable listen.

Haydn: The Natural Horn

Performer: Ab Koster, L'Archibudelli
Composer: Franz Josef Haydn
Audio CD (December 10, 1996)
Number of Discs: 1
Label: Sony

[asin]B000002BZN[/asin]

That's one of my very favorite Haydn disks, and an all-time great horn disk anyway. Haydn was blessed to have 4 of the finest hornists in Europe in the early 1760's, and he took full advantage of having them there, writing some of the most difficult pieces for horn ever. This is a disk everyone should have! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 24, 2011, 11:53:40 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 22, 2011, 04:19:56 PM

The Klöcker set is another fine box of entertainment. It has the pathological defect of having virtually none of the works actually being by Haydn, but I don't let that stop me enjoying it, nor should anyone else. The Huss box pictured there has only works that are verifiable as by Haydn. So many nice things are left off. But some things that show up are real rarities, like that "String Quintet" I mentioned, which this is the only extant recording of it, and Hob 14_01 which is the only one of those works for keyboard, 2 violins and bass that has 2 horns added in. It is an expensive little box, but I recommend it wholeheartedly to one and all. Damn, it is very nice!

Gurn - unclear from the limited liner notes by Klocker on that box regarding the authenticity of the works, but just curious how many are like wrongly attributed to him? At any rate I had a $50 Amazon Gift Certificate sitting on the table next to my den chair (and getting itchy to use it!) - so, put in an order for the Huss box you recommended and also the book by Daniel Heartz Mozart, Haydn and Early Beethoven: 1781-1802, which I've been contemplating for quite a while - feel like I'm getting both for half price! ;) ;D Dave

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 24, 2011, 02:40:43 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on October 24, 2011, 11:53:40 AM
Gurn - unclear from the limited liner notes by Klocker on that box regarding the authenticity of the works, but just curious how many are like wrongly attributed to him? At any rate I had a $50 Amazon Gift Certificate sitting on the table next to my den chair (and getting itchy to use it!) - so, put in an order for the Huss box you recommended and also the book by Daniel Heartz Mozart, Haydn and Early Beethoven: 1781-1802, which I've been contemplating for quite a while - feel like I'm getting both for half price! ;) ;D Dave

Dave,
Well, it is an unfortunate fact that Hoboken II is just loaded with "add-ons". Hoboken was faced with the fact that over the years practically every divertimento ever written was attributed to Haydn at one time or another. Rather than list things out, let me approach it the easy way.

Attributions are handled by Hoboken like this. He puts the Roman for the section, and then he does like this; Hob II:3. This is a normal regular section work, in this case a divertimento in G for 2 Oboes, 2 Horns and 2 Bassoons from 1758. OK, well if it was merely attributed to Haydn, it would look like this; Hob II:G7 This would be a divertimento for 4 or more instruments also, but the second part would be saying this; "this is the 7th work of this class that I've cataloged in G major".

OK, now that is cleared up, there are only 2 works in Hob II that have been authenticated since Hoboken wrote the catalog. They are D22 and G1. D22, can you believe that? :D Anyway, now if you look at Klocker, you can automatically exclude all the works in that category.

Now for the ones in the main part of Hob II. The only ones verified as authentic are 1, 2, 3, 6 has been moved to Hob III, 7, 8, 9, 11, 14-17 and 20-24. Then 25-32 are the notturnos, and 33-38 are the scherzandos. And that's it. The feldparthie in the 40's are not by Haydn (despite Brahms' best hopes).

And finally the Deest ("doesn't appear in") items. Who knows? Maybe yes, maybe no. :-\

Still, this totally doesn't mean that we shouldn't listen to them and enjoy them too. I certainly do. I think people that used to like certain music before they found out that someone else wrote it are rather hurting themselves more than anything else. :)

Great about that book. I am now on page 500. What a monster! And I really think you will like that box set too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on October 26, 2011, 07:53:25 AM

Some Haydn that is a bit off the beaten track, at least for me, that I have recently acquired and enjoyed very much:

[asin]B000004437[/asin]

[asin]B00000443H[/asin]

[asin]B0000057DU[/asin]

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 26, 2011, 08:36:29 AM

Yes, those are some disks that I have looked at for a long time but not picked up yet. All of the Hoboken 4 (IV) stuff is the real deal, and no doubt wonderfully played. It's nice music in any case, and a great group of players.

The Hob II pieces are a perfect illustration of the discussion in the previous posts. They are nice works and well worth listening to. Only if it makes a difference to you should it be mentioned that they are probably not by Haydn. It is highly likely that I will get them anyway.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 26, 2011, 08:50:40 AM

Quote from: Arnold on October 26, 2011, 07:53:25 AM
Some Haydn that is a bit off the beaten track, at least for me, that I have recently acquired and enjoyed very much:

[asin]B0000057DU[/asin]

That is a great disc, especially the Harpsichord Concerto with Pinnock at the keys.
Another gold star from my collection with only duplicate is the Trumpet Concerto...

[asin]B000006MB8[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on October 26, 2011, 09:20:54 AM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51J3W6VMXNL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Oh my. Leo, where are you?

My copy of the Queyras cello concertos arrived yesterday, and I can't get it out out of the player, just listening to the 1st concerto over and over.

These guys take this music and fly. It doesn't sound like music through speakers. It sounds like they're in the room - hands and arms flying, bow slapping and crunching on gut. The third movement is particularly exhilarating ... no, wait: 'exhilarating' is too posh. It's raw, it's in yer face, it's eighteenth-century rock&roll, mid-50s Elvis, Beatles first album kind of raw. Precise, in its way, and by no means uncontrolled, yet giving the impression of being always on the edge of wild abandon.

My only reservation (and it may fade with more listening) is that they don't quite get the second movement as exquisite as I think I'd like. Now the problem here is that my only point of comparison is du Pre/Barbirolli - a million miles from HIPdom, it's true, but even so when du Pre plays that second movement I hear the music bleed. Of course that may not be right: it may be a du Pre extravagance. I don't know. Maybe someone will tell me.

But set that aside; this cello concerto recording just blows my furniture out of the room. It's not possible to have it playing and do anything else but listen to it. And punch the air. And dance - yes, dance - feet tapping, eyes closed, bopping all over the carpet.

Leo, I salute you, Sir. Rock on.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 26, 2011, 09:48:56 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on October 26, 2011, 09:20:54 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51J3W6VMXNL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Oh my. Leo, where are you?

My copy of the Queyras cello concertos arrived yesterday, and I can't get it out out of the player, just listening to the 1st concerto over and over.

These guys take this music and fly. It doesn't sound like music through speakers. It sounds like they're in the room - hands and arms flying, bow slapping and crunching on gut. The third movement is particularly exhilarating ... no, wait: 'exhilarating' is too posh. It's raw, it's in yer face, it's eighteenth-century rock&roll, mid-50s Elvis, Beatles first album kind of raw. Precise, in its way, and by no means uncontrolled, yet giving the impression of being always on the edge of wild abandon.

My only reservation (and it may fade with more listening) is that they don't quite get the second movement as exquisite as I think I'd like. Now the problem here is that my only point of comparison is du Pre/Barbirolli - a million miles from HIPdom, it's true, but even so when du Pre plays that second movement I hear the music bleed. Of course that may not be right: it may be a du Pre extravagance. I don't know. Maybe someone will tell me.

But set that aside; this cello concerto recording just blows my furniture out of the room. It's not possible to have it playing and do anything else but listen to it. And punch the air. And dance - yes, dance - feet tapping, eyes closed, bopping all over the carpet.

Leo, I salute you, Sir. Rock on.

So you like it then? 0:)

If you want something to compare to it that's not big band post-romantic, this is a good choice. Sorry Amazon's picture sucks so badly;

[asin]B000001TVM[/asin]

Tafelmusik/Bylsma is delightful. As is this one, of Le Petite Bande / Suzuki;

[asin]B0000665YH[/asin]

They are well contrasted with each other too. IMO, Bylsma is more like a solo concerto with a band, while Suzuki is more like a nice chamber work with a soloist leading the way. 2 very interesting interpretations.

But only if you were looking for a contrast.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on October 26, 2011, 09:57:13 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 26, 2011, 09:48:56 AM
So you like it then?

Well, the one thing I couldn't call it is 'quite nice'.

Thanks for the alternative suggestions Gurn. I could easily imagine collecting several versions of this, now. But I can't imagine anything beating this for sheer bum-smacking, gut-thumping scrunchification. (This is one of those occasions where you just have to resort to technical language, I'm afraid.)

Footnote 1: Just discovered I've been misreading the small print on my du Pre box set for years. Her recording of the 1st concerto (see my post above) is with Barenboim, not Barbirolli. (Her no.2 is with Barbirolli.) It's still not rock and roll though.

Footnote 2: The Suzuki is as cheap as chips on Amazon UK, so I've ordered one.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 26, 2011, 04:41:04 PM

Quote from: Elgarian on October 26, 2011, 09:57:13 AM
Well, the one thing I couldn't call it is 'quite nice'.

Must be even better than I remember then! I'm not a fan of 'nice'. :)

QuoteThanks for the alternative suggestions Gurn. I could easily imagine collecting several versions of this, now. But I can't imagine anything beating this for sheer bum-smacking, gut-thumping scrunchification. (This is one of those occasions where you just have to resort to technical language, I'm afraid.)

Footnote 1: Just discovered I've been misreading the small print on my du Pre box set for years. Her recording of the 1st concerto (see my post above) is with Barenboim, not Barbirolli. (Her no.2 is with Barbirolli.) It's still not rock and roll though.

Footnote 2: The Suzuki is as cheap as chips on Amazon UK, so I've ordered one.

I recall liking that version, although it was many years ago. I also liked Rostropovich you know. I thought the English Chamber Orchestra was nicely restrained in that effort. But then, I used to be rather fonder of Romanticized versions than I am now. :)

I think you will like the Suzuki. He is a lovely player, and the orchestra sounds like a small chamber group. It makes a nice effect. It is rather the same style that is adopted in the horn concerto by L'Archibudelli/Koster that we discussed a couple of posts ago. Given that the 2 works were composed within a year of each other, the similarity in the performance styles is wonderful to hear. Like being in the Prince's salon. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 26, 2011, 05:02:25 PM

Part 5

1756

So now we are starting to get down to some music we know. Haydn is working 16-18 hours a day, giving lessons, accompanying the voice students of Porpora as they practiced, and starting the early mornings with organ playing at masses about town. And studying composition, it must be remembered. It was around this time that he discovered CPE Bach. According to Griesinger; "About this time Haydn came upon the first six sonatas of Emanuel Bach; 'I did not leave my clavier until I had played them through, and whoever knows me thoroughly must discover that I owe a great deal to Emanuel Bach, that I understood him and studied him with diligence. Emanuel Bach once paid me a compliment on that score himself'.

One of the influences on Haydn at this time, and in ways that are both subtle and very deep, was with Joseph Felix von Kurz, a well-known comic actor (under the stage-name Bernardon) and minor impresario active at the Kärntnertortheater, for whom Haydn supplied music to Der krumme Teufel (The Crooked Devil), a comedy of the Hanswurst type. It was apparently given its première in the 1751–2 season and revived in May 1753, with considerable success. Neither libretto nor music of this, his earliest stage work, survives; a libretto does survive for a later version of 1759, often called Der neue krumme Teufel, but, again, there is no music. It has been speculated that many anonymous numbers in contemporary Viennese collections of theatrical songs stem from this work or others that Haydn might have composed, although documentation is lacking. In other sources, Haydn speaks at length about Kurz. He observed him practicing before a mirror one day, and this led to long discussions about the nature of comedy in performance. Despite the fact that this period of Haydn's life is frequently sped through, and Kurz is mentioned only because of the lost music to The Crooked Devil, I believe that it would be very fruitful to investigate and analyze the roots of Haydn's comedy and how they were fed early on by Kurz. Another project for my list. :)

1756 also saw the expansion of Haydn's contacts into very nice business opportunities. Griesinger tells us; "At first Haydn received only two gulden a month for giving lessons, but gradually the price rose to five gulden, so that he was able to look about for more suitable quarters. While he was living in the Seilerstätte, all his few possessions were stolen ... Haydn soon saw his loss made good by the generosity of good friends ... [he] recovered through a stay of two months with Baron Fürnberg, which cost him nothing."

A 150% increase in fees has to be a good thing by anyone's standards. Not only more immediate income, but probably more advertising by happy patrons. And indeed, his list of contacts shows now some nobility as well as musicians. The most important figure was Baron Carl Joseph Fürnberg (1720–67), who employed him as music master to his children (he lived near the Seilerstätte), (and later on (after 1756, that is)) commissioned his first string quartets and eventually recommended him to Morzin. Important as well was the elder Countess Maria Christine Thun, who (according to Framery) took singing and keyboard lessons from Haydn.

So it is starting to look pretty good now for Haydn. In fact, he is so busy it is hard to see how he was able to keep up! In addition to the lessons, he was still playing and/or singing in at least three churches every day! And making music with his friends, like Karl Ditters, with whom he went out serenading (gassatim which gives us the root word for Cassation) in the evenings for money. And finally, he wrote some music which has survived.

Here is the music of 1756;

Hob 02_G1 Divertimento in G for 2 Oboes, 2 Horns, 2 Violins, 2 Violas & Basso
Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnEarlyDivertimenticover.jpg)

Hob 16_16 Sonata in Eb for Keyboard (Cembalo)
Christine Schornsheim
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardSchornsheimHaydn.jpg)

Hob 18_01 Concerto in C for Organ
New Dusseldorf Hofmusik / Utiger Christine Schornsheim
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/ConcertosSchornsheim.jpg)

Hob 18_06 Concerto in F for Cembalo & Violin
Accademia Bizantina / Dantone Montanari (Violin) / Dantone (Cembalo)
Hob 18_06 Concerto in F for Organ & Violin
Divertimento Salzburg / Haselböck
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnConcertosDantoneMontanaricover-1.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHaselbckcover.jpg)

Hob 23b_01 Salve Regina
Hob 23b_03 Ave Regina
Tafelmusik / Bruno Weil
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnWeilMassesCompletecover.jpg)

OK, a quick Hoboken lesson since this is our first 'add-on'. The lovely Divertimento in G for 9 instruments, Hob II:G1. At the time that Hoboken wrote up the divertimentos for 4 or more instruments, he was aware of the existence of this work. However, he didn't know if it was actually by Haydn or merely an attribution, so instead of a 'normal' Hoboken number, he called it Hob II (the right group that it belongs to) and then gave it the second part "G1", which means that it is the first work on the list in G major. There is a cottage industry in divertimentos in D major, I think that the highest number I've seen is in the 30's. But the only one proven genuine is D22! So, since we will see numbers of this type again, now we know what it means.

We turn yet again to Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss for their rendition of this large divertimento. Their playing is faultless as always, and this large orchestral work is right down the middle of their field. Yet again I urge you to check this disk out. The original incarnation of it, on Koch/Schwann went OOP very early on, and it was selling for $100-200/disk for each of the 4 or 5 available disks. BIS did us all a huge service in buying up the rights and reissuing the entire set.

Once again we also turn to Christine Schornsheim for this year's sonata, the one in Eb. It is a common trait of several of the early keyboard works that they only exist in one copy with Haydn's name on it, and many of them are quite individual in their expression. As a result, many experts, who of course tend towards conservatism, want to have a picture (a painting would do, but a photo would be better) of Haydn actually writing the notes. And why not? There have been many mistakes made in the past, and caution is warranted. However, the logic behind forging Haydn's name on works that are clearly early, and probably intended for his students to play, doesn't really make sense. In any case, Schornsheim and Oort are the only two who have recorded this pleasant little piece. Since Oort uses a fortepiano (and very nicely, I must say) and Schornsheim a cembalo, I give her the nod here. :)

Hob. 18:01 is the only keyboard concerto for which there is a dated, autograph manuscript. He is believed to have written it for the church service in which his first love, Therese Keller, took the veil (became a nun, for us heathens). The parallels with Mozart are stunning; fell in love with a lady, lost her, married her sister. Fortunately, Mozart's marriage was a happy one. Haydn went on in later years to call his wife 'The Infernal Beast'. :) In any case, this is a broad, rich work, unlike the leaner early concerti. Schornsheim and the Dusseldorfer's do a very nice job with this work, so a perfect time to turn to them yet again.

Hob 18:06, the double concerto, was likely written for church service too, which is why it is equally well performed using either a harpsichord (for which it was eventually published) or the organ (which the earliest surviving parts appear to be written). Chances are very good that this is the first piece that we have covered so far that most of us have heard before. Both of these versions do it good justice. Montanari & Dantone have replaced my earlier recommendation of Koopman, I do like their rendition a lot. They play it in the more Italianate style, lighter and perhaps a bit fleeter too. And Haselböck's version is as good as ever, certainly has an entirely different feel with the organ than the cembalo.

Finally, we turn back to some sacred music, not a mass yet, but some adjunct things, a Salve Regina and an Ave Regina. Tafelmusik / Weil do their standard excellent job with these 2 works for soprano, chorus and strings.

Hope that this interested you enough to want to hear some of these early works. Sometimes taking the plunge takes a bit of effort, but perhaps it will be a new avenue for you. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 26, 2011, 09:10:43 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 26, 2011, 08:36:29 AM
Yes, those are some disks that I have looked at for a long time but not picked up yet. All of the Hoboken 4 (IV) stuff is the real deal, and no doubt wonderfully played. It's nice music in any case, and a great group of players.

The Hob II pieces are a perfect illustration of the discussion in the previous posts. They are nice works and well worth listening to. Only if it makes a difference to you should it be mentioned that they are probably not by Haydn. It is highly likely that I will get them anyway.... :)

8)

So this is the real deal:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51G1lozXDnL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
which arrived today from Arkivmusic as part of an order otherwise devoted to Wolf-Ferrari concertos and Onslow chamber music. I'll probably be listening to it tomorrow. The trio is apparently a baryton trio arragned for flute trio.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on October 26, 2011, 11:47:38 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 26, 2011, 04:41:04 PM
I think you will like the Suzuki. He is a lovely player, and the orchestra sounds like a small chamber group. It makes a nice effect.

Not so much bum-smacking and gut-thumping, then? Maybe not so much Beatles first album, as Dylan's live acoustic set, Manchester '66....

If anyone out there is familiar with du Pre's recording, I'd really like to know if the heart-bleeding passion she injects into the slow movement is justified by Haydn's score, or if she's doing her own thing, as it were.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 27, 2011, 04:07:49 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 26, 2011, 09:10:43 PM
So this is the real deal:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51G1lozXDnL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
which arrived today from Arkivmusic as part of an order otherwise devoted to Wolf-Ferrari concertos and Onslow chamber music. I'll probably be listening to it tomorrow. The trio is apparently a baryton trio arragned for flute trio.

Yes, in fact that is the disk I am using right now for these works. I really like the playing, and when we get to it later on, we can talk about the music which is interesting too. I am not entirely sure who arranged the baryton trio for this combination. Chances are huge that it was someone hired by a publisher to do it. It makes an interesting sounding take on the baryton work though. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 27, 2011, 04:12:02 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on October 26, 2011, 11:47:38 PM
Not so much bum-smacking and gut-thumping, then? Maybe not so much Beatles first album, as Dylan's live acoustic set, Manchester '66....

If anyone out there is familiar with du Pre's recording, I'd really like to know if the heart-bleeding passion she injects into the slow movement is justified by Haydn's score, or if she's doing her own thing, as it were.

Oh, don't go by my adjectives, amigo. I tend toward the usual British reserve. Rather more than some Brits I know... :D

As a rule of thumb in Classical works, you can figure that "heart-bleeding passion" = player / listener, not composer. It wasn't an aim of the (non-operatic) composer for another 50 years after that work was composed. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 27, 2011, 04:40:39 AM

Not fair to drive me crazy, Senor Haynd... >:(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on October 27, 2011, 05:58:33 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 27, 2011, 04:12:02 AM
As a rule of thumb in Classical works, you can figure that "heart-bleeding passion" = player / listener, not composer. It wasn't an aim of the (non-operatic) composer for another 50 years after that work was composed.

That's what I assumed, more or less, and I know that the historical perspective requires that. So maybe the expression 'heart-bleeding passion' is more a description of my response than of anything else; and yet ... what troubles me is this: is du Pre inventing this piercing and poignant emotion that she evokes? That is, is she manipulating the score in ways that are entirely her own? Or is the potential there in the music, and she's discovering it?

(No use me looking at the score - might as well be hieroglyphics. In fact I might do better with hieroglyphics!)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 27, 2011, 06:06:17 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on October 27, 2011, 05:58:33 AM
That's what I assumed, more or less, and I know that the historical perspective requires that. So maybe the expression 'heart-bleeding passion' is more a description of my response than of anything else; and yet ... what troubles me is this: is du Pre inventing this piercing and poignant emotion that she evokes? That is, is she manipulating the score in ways that are entirely her own? Or is the potential there in the music, and she's discovering it?

(No use me looking at the score - might as well be hieroglyphics. In fact I might do better with hieroglyphics!)

I don't know that I would call it invention, it smacks of a negativism that possibly shouldn't be attached. She plays it as though it were a Romantic piece that is written to be heart-rending, despite that it isn't. I think that a good player can do that with any piece of music. That is the kernel of interpretation, after all. And also the real difference of what we as listeners feel is our personal taste. I think that if you polled the listeners on this board, you would probably get more (so it seems to me) who prefer Romantic playing even in Classical works, because it simply suits their personal taste. Look at the number of folks who think Böhm is the last word in Mozart symphonies. Same thing. Emotion is written into the score in rather subtler ways, oftentimes the tempo indication at the beginning means a heck of a lot more than just how fast to play it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 27, 2011, 06:42:32 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 26, 2011, 08:36:29 AM
Yes, those are some disks that I have looked at for a long time but not picked up yet. All of the Hoboken 4 (IV) stuff is the real deal, and no doubt wonderfully played. It's nice music in any case, and a great group of players.

The Hob II pieces are a perfect illustration of the discussion in the previous posts. They are nice works and well worth listening to. Only if it makes a difference to you should it be mentioned that they are probably not by Haydn. It is highly likely that I will get them anyway.... :)

Hi Gurn - not been posting much because of this inability to link my uploaded pictures, but at any rate, I've been sorting through some of my own discs regarding these earlier works & their authenticity? For example, I have the 2 lower CDs in Arnold's post but not the one on the London Trios - as you mentioned above and in checking Amazon HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Haydn-Quartets-Barthold-Kuijken/dp/B000004437/ref=sr_1_6?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1319725716&sr=1-6), more than half of the listings question their composition by Haydn - still probably a great set because of the performers who I enjoy!

Now a CD that I do own stating The London Trios w/ another favorite group, i.e. Camerata Koln (and shown below) contains trios for Piano, Flute, & Cello (Hob. XV:15-17) & Trios for Two Flutes and Cello (Hob. IV:1-4) - assume that these are authentic works of Papa Joe? And just curious where the 'Opus 5' came from? Assume Haydn's or someone else numbering these works? Dave :)

[asin]B00011MK5Q[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 27, 2011, 07:02:53 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on October 27, 2011, 06:42:32 AM
Hi Gurn - not been posting much because of this inability to link my uploaded pictures, but at any rate, I've been sorting through some of my own discs regarding these earlier works & their authenticity? For example, I have the 2 lower CDs in Arnold's post but not the one on the London Trios - as you mentioned above and in checking Amazon HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Haydn-Quartets-Barthold-Kuijken/dp/B000004437/ref=sr_1_6?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1319725716&sr=1-6), more than half of the listings question their composition by Haydn - still probably a great set because of the performers who I enjoy!

Now a CD that I do own stating The London Trios w/ another favorite group, i.e. Camerata Koln (and shown below) contains trios for Piano, Flute, & Cello (Hob. XV:15-17) & Trios for Two Flutes and Cello (Hob. IV:1-4) - assume that these are authentic works of Papa Joe? And just curious where the 'Opus 5' came from? Assume Haydn's or someone else numbering these works? Dave :)

[asin]B00011MK5Q[/asin]

Hey, Dave,
Well, images are back now anyway, hope you saw my reply to your last, and the next installment of the saga.

Yes, that;s a fine disk, and those are definitely the real deal from Papa Joe. The Op 5 is attached by one of his publishers. I don't know that one specifically, since he had dozens of them over the years and there is no telling which ones were seized on by posterity. Possibly Artaria, although I doubt a low Op# from them at that late date. Unlike Beethoven (or Leopold Mozart), Haydn had no interest in assigning Op numbers. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 27, 2011, 07:26:11 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 27, 2011, 07:02:53 AM
Hey, Dave,
Well, images are back now anyway, hope you saw my reply to your last, and the next installment of the saga.

Yes, that;s a fine disk, and those are definitely the real deal from Papa Joe. The Op 5 is attached by one of his publishers. I don't know that one specifically, since he had dozens of them over the years and there is no telling which ones were seized on by posterity. Possibly Artaria, although I doubt a low Op# from them at that late date. Unlike Beethoven (or Leopold Mozart), Haydn had no interest in assigning Op numbers.

Yes, I noticed others using the image icon, so just posted in the listening thread - :D

But, I've been keeping up w/ this thread - concerning the Keyboard Concerti, I do have the 2-CD set w/ Schornsheim and also a single disc w/ Brautigam - do not have these works either on a modern piano (probably not interested) or a harpsichord (might be a choice for me depending on the recording - not even sure 'how many' might be available but will check!) - Dave :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CZMRJRnLL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MM1yL1X8L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on October 27, 2011, 07:37:51 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on October 26, 2011, 09:20:54 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51J3W6VMXNL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Oh my. Leo, where are you?

My copy of the Queyras cello concertos arrived yesterday, and I can't get it out out of the player, just listening to the 1st concerto over and over.

These guys take this music and fly. It doesn't sound like music through speakers. It sounds like they're in the room - hands and arms flying, bow slapping and crunching on gut. The third movement is particularly exhilarating ... no, wait: 'exhilarating' is too posh. It's raw, it's in yer face, it's eighteenth-century rock&roll, mid-50s Elvis, Beatles first album kind of raw. Precise, in its way, and by no means uncontrolled, yet giving the impression of being always on the edge of wild abandon.

My only reservation (and it may fade with more listening) is that they don't quite get the second movement as exquisite as I think I'd like. Now the problem here is that my only point of comparison is du Pre/Barbirolli - a million miles from HIPdom, it's true, but even so when du Pre plays that second movement I hear the music bleed. Of course that may not be right: it may be a du Pre extravagance. I don't know. Maybe someone will tell me.

But set that aside; this cello concerto recording just blows my furniture out of the room. It's not possible to have it playing and do anything else but listen to it. And punch the air. And dance - yes, dance - feet tapping, eyes closed, bopping all over the carpet.

Leo, I salute you, Sir. Rock on.

Wow! I'm so glad you enjoy it man! Thanks! I was playing this last night again, it is a sublime recording :)

Sorry I've been away, I'm in the midst of a move to a new house, and moving my whole collection once again is quite a feat! :) today it's the CDs and books! Yesterday I finished moving the LPs! Whew!

I'm going to catch up on this thread ASAP :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 27, 2011, 08:24:57 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on October 27, 2011, 07:26:11 AM
Yes, I noticed others using the image icon, so just posted in the listening thread - :D

But, I've been keeping up w/ this thread - concerning the Keyboard Concerti, I do have the 2-CD set w/ Schornsheim and also a single disc w/ Brautigam - do not have these works either on a modern piano (probably not interested) or a harpsichord (might be a choice for me depending on the recording - not even sure 'how many' might be available but will check!) - Dave :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CZMRJRnLL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MM1yL1X8L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Dave,
Just a quick note on that. That Koopman disk I posted, the Philips Duo, has all of them on harpsichord. Some of Schornsheim's are on that disk, and that Pinnock concertos disk shown above has the #11 in D played on harpsichord too. On 3, 4 & 11 I use Brautigam on fortepiano as well as one or another of the cembalo versions because they are authentic either way and I like them both ways. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 27, 2011, 05:45:04 PM

The Naxos set of the concertos is all over the place in the instruments it uses
Here is a list ID'd by key and Hob. number
D major XVIII:2 harpsichord
F major XVIII:6 fortepiano [Double concerto for violin and keyboard]
F major XVIII:3 piano
D major XVIII:11 piano
G major XVIII:4 piano
G major XVIII:9 piano
C major XVIII:1 organ
C major XVIII:5 harpsichord
C major XVIII:8 organ
F major XVIII:7 harpsichord
C major XVIII:10 organ

The four performed on modern piano are on the same disc in the six disc set (which includes the violin, cello, trumpet, horn and lire organizzate concertos, the latter variously using two recorders, flute and oboe, and two flutes to play the solo parts. So obviously we're not talking PI here with this set.

The track listings name the instrument as keyboard with the actual instrument used following in brackets. So the last one they title "Keyboard [organ] concerto in C major".

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 27, 2011, 06:50:15 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 27, 2011, 05:45:04 PM
The Naxos set of the concertos is all over the place in the instruments it uses
Here is a list ID'd by key and Hob. number
D major XVIII:2 harpsichord
F major XVIII:6 fortepiano [Double concerto for violin and keyboard]
F major XVIII:3 piano
D major XVIII:11 piano
G major XVIII:4 piano
G major XVIII:9 piano
C major XVIII:1 organ
C major XVIII:5 harpsichord
C major XVIII:8 organ
F major XVIII:7 harpsichord
C major XVIII:10 organ

The four performed on modern piano are on the same disc in the six disc set (which includes the violin, cello, trumpet, horn and lire organizzate concertos, the latter variously using two recorders, flute and oboe, and two flutes to play the solo parts. So obviously we're not talking PI here with this set.

The track listings name the instrument as keyboard with the actual instrument used following in brackets. So the last one they title "Keyboard [organ] concerto in C major".

Well, it can be argued that any old thing is OK. Schornsheim, in her 2 disk set, uses organ, harpsichord and fortepiano. Her choices are far from random though. She doesn't play 18:6 at all, but I would guess she would have used a harpsichord if she did. 1756, after all. :)

I note that I just have 2 versions of #10, Schornsheim and Haselböck. His disk is all organ, so it won't settle any differences, but Schornsheim uses an organ also. Koopman, whose disk is all harpsichord, doesn't play it at all. It is the only concerto he skips, in fact. I would surmise that something about its structure makes the organ the preferred instrument then.

All of them are titled "Keyboard Concerto" (für das Klavier) so they have that right anyway. Sounds like they have at least a nice part of it on appropriate instruments. When we have spoken about period instruments and I have advocated for open-mindedness in that regard, I have to confess, I meant with anything but keyboards. 0:)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Musicians of the Louvre, Grenoble \ Minkowski - Hob 01_103 Symphony in Eb 4th mvmt - Finale: Allegro con spirito

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 27, 2011, 07:12:06 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 27, 2011, 06:50:15 PM
Well, it can be argued that any old thing is OK. Schornsheim, in her 2 disk set, uses organ, harpsichord and fortepiano. Her choices are far from random though. She doesn't play 18:6 at all, but I would guess she would have used a harpsichord if she did. 1756, after all. :)

I note that I just have 2 versions of #10, Schornsheim and Haselböck. His disk is all organ, so it won't settle any differences, but Schornsheim uses an organ also. Koopman, whose disk is all harpsichord, doesn't play it at all. It is the only concerto he skips, in fact. I would surmise that something about its structure makes the organ the preferred instrument then.

All of them are titled "Keyboard Concerto" (für das Klavier) so they have that right anyway. Sounds like they have at least a nice part of it on appropriate instruments. When we have spoken about period instruments and I have advocated for open-mindedness in that regard, I have to confess, I meant with anything but keyboards. 0:)

8)

-

Went and read the Naxos liner notes, which indicates that #10 could be played on the harpsichord--but cites the date of compostion (and the key)to link it to the other organ concertos and Haydn's employment at the time as organist/church musician. So presumably all these recordings use the organ on the grounds that it was probably written for an organ.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on October 27, 2011, 08:45:59 PM

Marvin should have read the first 40 Pages of this Thread, and then we wouldn't have had to go through this... again!! >:D Ugh!!

Oy, this Thread brings out the snob in me, tee hee!! ;) ;D

:-*

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on October 27, 2011, 11:49:21 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 27, 2011, 06:06:17 AMShe [du Pre] plays it [the Haydn cello concerto] as though it were a Romantic piece that is written to be heart-rending, despite that it isn't. I think that a good player can do that with any piece of music.

I think what's happened here is that this [du Pre] is the most extreme example I've encountered so far. Till now I think I've been more consciously struck by the difference in sound as opposed to the difference in feeling when comparing period with modern interpretations. Although even as I write that I realise it's not an accurate statement. Immerseel's Beethoven is more exciting, more exhilarating than any large-scale-orchestra modern interpretations I've ever heard. And all these period Haydn symphonies, quartets and Masses I've been enjoying sparkle with a joi-de-vivre that seems largely missing from modern interpretations. I think I could safely say that I find rather more 'feeling' in period performance, than less.

In fact, as I write, I'm starting to wonder about the whole business of 'emotion' or 'feeling' in music, and what it means; and whether it means (for me) the same as it means for other people. Is it the equivalent of the 'pathetic fallacy' in literature, I wonder? Where we project our internal emotional state outwards, onto the object that seems to be stimulating it - as when we say things like 'the cruel sea'? If that's so, then no wonder there's so much disagreement over the period v modern instrument issue: much of the time we think we're talking about the music when actually we're talking about ourselves.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 27, 2011, 11:57:02 PM

Quote from: Elgarian on October 27, 2011, 11:49:21 PM
If that's so, then no wonder there's so much disagreement over the period v modern instrument issue: much of the time we think we're talking about the music when actually we're talking about ourselves.

This resonates with me in ways that I cannot even express. Well said!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 28, 2011, 04:21:49 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on October 27, 2011, 11:49:21 PM
I think what's happened here is that this [du Pre] is the most extreme example I've encountered so far. Till now I think I've been more consciously struck by the difference in sound as opposed to the difference in feeling when comparing period with modern interpretations. Although even as I write that I realise it's not an accurate statement. Immerseel's Beethoven is more exciting, more exhilarating than any large-scale-orchestra modern interpretations I've ever heard. And all these period Haydn symphonies, quartets and Masses I've been enjoying sparkle with a joi-de-vivre that seems largely missing from modern interpretations. I think I could safely say that I find rather more 'feeling' in period performance, than less.

In fact, as I write, I'm starting to wonder about the whole business of 'emotion' or 'feeling' in music, and what it means; and whether it means (for me) the same as it means for other people. Is it the equivalent of the 'pathetic fallacy' in literature, I wonder? Where we project our internal emotional state outwards, onto the object that seems to be stimulating it - as when we say things like 'the cruel sea'? If that's so, then no wonder there's so much disagreement over the period v modern instrument issue: much of the time we think we're talking about the music when actually we're talking about ourselves.

Well, I have always believed this to be true. You could probably go back to my earliest musings in this forum and I will have said some variation of that. Usually it is not well-received because people generally don't want to think that the reaction they have is not one that was somehow imbued into the music and is thus an intrinsic part of it.

I also think this is a large part of the Classico-Romantic dichotomy. Classical composers weren't emotionless robots, but they didn't try to write their own emotions into the music. If you had an emotional reaction to it, that was your emotions. But I do now, and always have felt that in the later time, composers felt it was incumbent upon them to share with you 'this is how I feel right now'. I don't pass value judgments on any of that, I am merely acknowledging its existence.

Certainly though, a manner of playing can express an emotion. A crisp, 'straight' note on a cello, all on its own, versus a drawn out, vibrato-laden note, can convey a feeling to you that arouses an emotion, one different from the other. After all, a cello can't be sad, but it can make you cry... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 28, 2011, 04:24:14 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 27, 2011, 07:12:06 PM
Went and read the Naxos liner notes, which indicates that #10 could be played on the harpsichord--but cites the date of compostion (and the key)to link it to the other organ concertos and Haydn's employment at the time as organist/church musician. So presumably all these recordings use the organ on the grounds that it was probably written for an organ.

Very likely. I have read that elsewhere, but also the likelihood that 95% of performances then and later probably took place on the harpsichord. The music was still used outside of its intended setting. Probably even by Haydn himself. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on October 28, 2011, 04:57:26 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 28, 2011, 04:21:49 AM
Well, I have always believed this to be true. You could probably go back to my earliest musings in this forum and I will have said some variation of that. Usually it is not well-received because people generally don't want to think that the reaction they have is not one that was somehow imbued into the music and is thus an intrinsic part of it.

My difficulty over this is essentially a philosophical one. For a long time now, I've adopted as a working hypothesis Susanne Langer's idea of the work of art as a collection of 'symbols of feeling', whereby the artist creates and/or arranges the symbols, which we then contemplate and - to a greater or lesser degree - recapture something of the original 'feeling'. I'm seeing this now as less than satisfactory. On the other hand, the suggestion that the whole idea of 'feeling' in art is a pathetic fallacy seems equally unacceptable....

Or maybe not. Here's Haydn - he assembles this 'thing', this 'structure', and presents it to us as an object he considers worthy of our contemplation. So alright, we contemplate it; we admire the structure. And in the process we 'feel' certain things - much as we would if we contemplated a tree or a flower. And maybe Haydn expected we would feel like that, simply as part of the contemplative and admiring process, because, classical period or not, human beings don't generally experience admiration without 'feeling' something. I'm reminded of Sandra Blow, the great British abstract painter, who worried - when she started painting abstract pictures in the 1950s - about 'how to get the feeling into it'. She resolved this by deciding that her job, as painter, was to get the architecture of the picture right; and then the feelings would look after themselves. Not sure what the philosophers would make of that, but right now it seems like a very helpful way to approach Haydn. Yes?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 28, 2011, 06:06:43 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on October 28, 2011, 04:57:26 AM
.....
Or maybe not. Here's Haydn - he assembles this 'thing', this 'structure', and presents it to us as an object he considers worthy of our contemplation. So alright, we contemplate it; we admire the structure. And in the process we 'feel' certain things - much as we would if we contemplated a tree or a flower. And maybe Haydn expected we would feel like that, simply as part of the contemplative and admiring process, because, classical period or not, human beings don't generally experience admiration without 'feeling' something. I'm reminded of Sandra Blow, the great British abstract painter, who worried - when she started painting abstract pictures in the 1950s - about 'how to get the feeling into it'. She resolved this by deciding that her job, as painter, was to get the architecture of the picture right; and then the feelings would look after themselves. Not sure what the philosophers would make of that, but right now it seems like a very helpful way to approach Haydn. Yes?

Tom Beghin, fortepianist and Haydn scholar, analyzes the sonatas as classic rhetorical arguments. Where Haydn will make a statement by writing a phrase, and then argue it by pursuing different ways to make it resolve (as composers in that time believed it must do). Not being a musical theoretician, I can't recapitulate that process here, although I can understand it as I read it. But the point being that I think it is philosophically congruent with the philosophy of Sandra Blow, in that he is presenting a structure for our approval. Bearing in mind that the audience of that time was different than that of today, he sought their agreement (that is; approval) with his argument. Clearly he often won. The 19th century totally saw the end of this form of music appreciation, which is why it seems so foreign today as to be unlikely. But to the 18th century, it was simply the way things were. If your library has a copy of Beghin's book, which I believe is called "Haydn and the Rhetorical in Music" or sommat such, you should at least ponder a chapter or two to get a feel for it. I found it fascinating as a concept, despite barely comprehending some of it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on October 28, 2011, 07:02:33 AM

I am generally suspect of the idea that music expresses emotion - except only in a the vague sense that a well wrought piece of art is pleasing. When a composer attempts to manipulate my emotions I do not like it. This may be why the music I enjoy the most was written in the Classical period and 20th/21st century atonal style.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mn Dave on October 28, 2011, 07:18:55 AM

Quote from: Arnold on October 28, 2011, 07:02:33 AM
I am generally suspect of the idea that music expresses emotion - except only in a the vague sense that a well wrought piece of art is pleasing. When a composer attempts to manipulate my emotions I do not like it.

I think I'm the exact opposite.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on October 28, 2011, 07:29:19 AM

Quote from: Mn Dave on October 28, 2011, 07:18:55 AM
I think I'm the exact opposite.

Me too. Music is all about emotion, for me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 28, 2011, 08:05:02 AM

Quote from: Arnold on October 28, 2011, 07:02:33 AM
I am generally suspect of the idea that music expresses emotion - except only in a the vague sense that a well wrought piece of art is pleasing. When a composer attempts to manipulate my emotions I do not like it. This may be why the music I enjoy the most was written in the Classical period and 20th/21st century atonal style.

Quote from: Mn Dave on October 28, 2011, 07:18:55 AM
I think I'm the exact opposite.

Say no more! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mn Dave on October 28, 2011, 08:11:26 AM

I enjoying watching as food is prepared but I prefer the sensations as I shovel it into my mouth.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on October 28, 2011, 08:43:22 AM

Quote from: Mn Dave on October 28, 2011, 08:11:26 AM
I enjoying watching as food is prepared but I prefer the sensations as I shovel it into my mouth.

How does this analogy apply to the present discussion?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on October 28, 2011, 08:48:25 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on October 28, 2011, 08:43:22 AM
How does this analogy apply to the present discussion?

When it's MN Dave, anything goes! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mn Dave on October 28, 2011, 08:48:54 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on October 28, 2011, 08:43:22 AM
How does this analogy apply to the present discussion?

What discussion? :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on October 28, 2011, 08:49:59 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 28, 2011, 06:06:43 AMBearing in mind that the audience of that time was different than that of today, he sought their agreement (that is; approval) with his argument. Clearly he often won. The 19th century totally saw the end of this form of music appreciation, which is why it seems so foreign today as to be unlikely. But to the 18th century, it was simply the way things were.

This is (when I was bored by it) how I accepted music of the classical period to be. The irony here is that now I've found a deep pleasure in the music (and so, one might suppose, have finally begun to understand it), I no longer experience it as emotionless. Indeed, we were discussing a couple of weeks ago, Gurn, about what seemed to be Haydn's joyful response to life seeming to be characterised in the music. I find it hard to believe that that sense of joy is all pure pathetic fallacy.

But OK, OK, you mention that it has to be hard to believe, because I'm a post-romantic, not a denizen of the Age of Enlightenment. It's not actually possible for me to share that world view, and my incredulity isn't disproof. And yet ... just as today, I find the people who most claimed to be driven by rational thought are invariably those who are most blind to the effect of their emotions on their thinking, so I wonder about the Age of Enlightenment. I'm sceptical of their quasi-rational interpretations of what they thought they were doing. Dr Johnson was forever prey to his emotions. Boswell was pulled hither and thither by his, to such an extent that one wonders how much control he had over his life. I've never been particularly convinced that those (wonderful) guys really understood themselves, and the significance of their work. It wouldn't shock me to discover that such basic self-misunderstandings were endemic in the period.

I say this, merely thinking aloud to see where it takes me. The whole business seems rather insecure.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 28, 2011, 09:42:50 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on October 28, 2011, 08:49:59 AM
This is (when I was bored by it) how I accepted music of the classical period to be. The irony here is that now I've found a deep pleasure in the music (and so, one might suppose, have finally begun to understand it), I no longer experience it as emotionless. Indeed, we were discussing a couple of weeks ago, Gurn, about what seemed to be Haydn's joyful response to life seeming to be characterised in the music. I find it hard to believe that that sense of joy is all pure pathetic fallacy.

But OK, OK, you mention that it has to be hard to believe, because I'm a post-romantic, not a denizen of the Age of Enlightenment. It's not actually possible for me to share that world view, and my incredulity isn't disproof. And yet ... just as today, I find the people who most claimed to be driven by rational thought are invariably those who are most blind to the effect of their emotions on their thinking, so I wonder about the Age of Enlightenment. I'm sceptical of their quasi-rational interpretations of what they thought they were doing. Dr Johnson was forever prey to his emotions. Boswell was pulled hither and thither by his, to such an extent that one wonders how much control he had over his life. I've never been particularly convinced that those (wonderful) guys really understood themselves, and the significance of their work. It wouldn't shock me to discover that such basic self-misunderstandings were endemic in the period.

I say this, merely thinking aloud to see where it takes me. The whole business seems rather insecure.

I totally don't look at it as being anything less than joyful, even if it's rhetorical. That word is fraught with meaning, but in 1780, none of those meanings were negative. Rhetoric merely provided a structure for expression. One can't sit down and say "I'm happy today, I'll write a tune, shall I?". And what if I wasn't happy today? I'm not going to inflict that on all my listeners.

"I am writing today because by the grace of God, my Prince has asked me to compose a symphony for his gala on Friday".

Rhetoric (in the good sense) provides me with a means to express my musical ideas. To make a joke based on your expectations of what you thought I was going to write. When the argument logically proceeded to here, I went there instead and left you shaking your head. HAW!

The mere fact that fixed structure created expectations in the listener was enough to provide a wealth of opportunities for the clever composer to play games with it.

One of the big differences in 'Romantic' style is that structure is far less fixed or formal. No one 'breaks a rule' because there aren't any. How can you have expectations then? How can I make a joke by foiling them? Can't do it, and can't understand now what Haydn was doing either. So screw him, he was just an old doofus anyway. That's what history says happened. Makes sense to me, although it is my words there and you probably wouldn't ever read it that way in a book. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on October 28, 2011, 10:22:35 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 28, 2011, 09:42:50 AM
I totally don't look at it as being anything less than joyful, even if it's rhetorical. That word is fraught with meaning, but in 1780, none of those meanings were negative. Rhetoric merely provided a structure for expression. One can't sit down and say "I'm happy today, I'll write a tune, shall I?". And what if I wasn't happy today? I'm not going to inflict that on all my listeners.

"I am writing today because by the grace of God, my Prince has asked me to compose a symphony for his gala on Friday".

Rhetoric (in the good sense) provides me with a means to express my musical ideas. To make a joke based on your expectations of what you thought I was going to write. When the argument logically proceeded to here, I went there instead and left you shaking your head. HAW!

I get this - I really do. It has similar characteristics to the witty crossword puzzle clue, where the word play and unexpected twists of meaning can produce a thrilling response in the solver.

QuoteOne of the big differences in 'Romantic' style is that structure is far less fixed or formal. No one 'breaks a rule' because there aren't any. How can you have expectations then? How can I make a joke by foiling them? Can't do it, and can't understand now what Haydn was doing either. So screw him, he was just an old doofus anyway. That's what history says happened. Makes sense to me, although it is my words there and you probably wouldn't ever read it that way in a book.

Spot on, this, too. I'm with you all the way there, Gurn. So where, you (or I) might ask, is my problem? I think my concern is about the word 'expression', and what, exactly, is being expressed. And is what's really being expressed the same as the composer thinks is being expressed? So I'm confronting questions like: 'Is joy an emotion?'. If Haydn builds a musical structure that elicits joyfulness in him, and that also elicits joyfulness in us when we listen to it, has he not found (albeit inadvertently) a vehicle for expressing joy? Don't get me wrong - I'm acknowledging that the intention is entirely non-Romantic: that is, here are two people, composer and listener, contemplating the same object and being joyful about it. We're focused on the object, not the feeling. But still we do get the feeling. If I show you the loveliest stamp in my stamp collection,* my intention is to show you the stamp; but I won't be surprised if you go a bit weepy.

I'm almost tempted to wonder (if only to give people the fun of knocking it down) if Haydn is clearly saying 'Look at this', while the Romantic is very nearly saying 'Look at me'.

*I don't have a stamp collection, by the way.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on October 28, 2011, 10:41:28 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on October 28, 2011, 10:22:35 AM
I'm almost tempted to wonder (if only to give people the fun of knocking it down) if Haydn is clearly saying 'Look at this', while the Romantic is very nearly saying 'Look at me'.

Hammer, meet the nail's head. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 28, 2011, 10:57:24 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on October 28, 2011, 10:22:35 AM
I get this - I really do. It has similar characteristics to the witty crossword puzzle clue, where the word play and unexpected twists of meaning can produce a thrilling response in the solver.

Spot on, this, too. I'm with you all the way there, Gurn. So where, you (or I) might ask, is my problem? I think my concern is about the word 'expression', and what, exactly, is being expressed. And is what's really being expressed the same as the composer thinks is being expressed? So I'm confronting questions like: 'Is joy an emotion?'. If Haydn builds a musical structure that elicits joyfulness in him, and that also elicits joyfulness in us when we listen to it, has he not found (albeit inadvertently) a vehicle for expressing joy? Don't get me wrong - I'm acknowledging that the intention is entirely non-Romantic: that is, here are two people, composer and listener, contemplating the same object and being joyful about it. We're focused on the object, not the feeling. But still we do get the feeling. If I show you the loveliest stamp in my stamp collection,* my intention is to show you the stamp; but I won't be surprised if you go a bit weepy.

I'm almost tempted to wonder (if only to give people the fun of knocking it down) if Haydn is clearly saying 'Look at this', while the Romantic is very nearly saying 'Look at me'.

*I don't have a stamp collection, by the way.

All interesting questions, well-deserving of a more knowledgeable response than I am probably capable of. But my gut feeling is that sharing my delight in something with you is not the same as doing something with the sole intent of delighting you (or irritating or any other reaction). We know from Haydn's own words that playing musical jokes on listeners was one of his main joys in life. He said as much several times.

I am totally in agreement with your last bit. Perhaps it is that (perceived) aspect of Romantic music that drives me towards Classical, which seems opposite to what many have said. I think Mozart was way more Haydnish than the Romantics who tried to co-opt him for themselves would have liked to believe. It is a basic difference in the way people perceived society in one century versus the subsequent one. We would all like to believe that the way we think now is the way that people have always thought. Clearly it is not so. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on October 28, 2011, 01:11:44 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 28, 2011, 10:57:24 AMIt is a basic difference in the way people perceived society in one century versus the subsequent one. We would all like to believe that the way we think now is the way that people have always thought. Clearly it is not so.

A statement worth carving on a tablet of stone and erecting in every art-critical marketplace. The failure to understand that has generated more nonsensical art criticism than ..., than ..., ... an automatic nonsensical criticism generator would.

One problem in resolving all this is the fact that Romanticism is such a gigantic undefinable sprawling thing. Clearly, my contentious statement about Romanticism (that the Romantic artist is saying 'Look at me') fails at the first hurdle. One only needs, in the visual arts, to look at someone like J.M.W. Turner - or in music, Brahms or Wagner, to recognise the falsity of it. Still, it might be worth extending it to something like 'look at how I see this'. But that's another story, and beyond the pale for this thread.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on October 29, 2011, 07:03:00 AM

Kudos gentleman all, on this thread, for such a wonderful, thought out discussion. So many good points regarding classical and romantic music.

Particularly I like:

"I'm almost tempted to wonder (if only to give people the fun of knocking it down) if Haydn is clearly saying 'Look at this', while the Romantic is very nearly saying 'Look at me'."

"I think Mozart was way more Haydnish than the Romantics who tried to co-opt him for themselves would have liked to believe. It is a basic difference in the way people perceived society in one century versus the subsequent one. We would all like to believe that the way we think now is the way that people have always thought. Clearly it is not so."

"I am writing today because by the grace of God, my Prince has asked me to compose a symphony for his gala on Friday".

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 29, 2011, 07:21:29 AM

Quote from: Leo K on October 29, 2011, 07:03:00 AM
Kudos gentleman all, on this thread, for such a wonderful, thought out discussion. So many good points regarding classical and romantic music.

Thanks, Leo. At first I thought that we might be going a bit far afield by going down that avenue. But in thinking about it, how can one divorce Haydn's reception history from the history of his music in general. The entire concept of that one statement (it isn't an exact quote, but a paraphrase) was so alien to the 19th century that the concept alone was enough to relegate Haydn to the 4th or 5th rank of composers. This despite the fact that his music was generally recognized by them as being so good that it never disappeared from concert programs! That in itself should be enough to give you some strange thoughts about The Romantic Generation, eh? :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on October 29, 2011, 07:43:01 AM

Quote from: Leo K on October 29, 2011, 07:03:00 AM
Kudos gentleman all, on this thread, for such a wonderful, thought out discussion. So many good points regarding classical and romantic music.

One of the best I've had recently. It was a lot of fun bouncing stuff at Gurn and getting such interesting and knowledgeable returns. What I've particularly enjoyed is not that I resolved a few questions once and for all (I rarely if ever do that, at the best of times), but that I carried away a series of conflicting thoughts that I could chew over while riding my bike, washing the dishes, etc. leading to a possible fresh perspective; or rather, to a way of moving towards a possible fresh perspective. I haven't quite got answers, but I've got some different questions.

Incidentally, I've noticed that Europadisc are selling vols 2, 3 and 7 of the Festetics Haydn quartets at £10.50 each (an offer that runs out tomorrow), so I listened to some samples. Crikey - they really are not at all like the Mosaiques, are they? Better or worse? I can't say and don't care. It may be a non-question. Certainly they sound scrunchy, exciting, and vibrant. So I've ordered these three sets.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 29, 2011, 07:49:03 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on October 29, 2011, 07:43:01 AM

Incidentally, I've noticed that Europadisc are selling vols 2, 3 and 7 of the Festetics Haydn quartets at £10.50 each (an offer that runs out tomorrow), so I listened to some samples. Crikey - they really are not at all like the Mosaiques, are they? Better or worse? I can't say and don't care. It may be a non-question. Certainly they sound scrunchy, exciting, and vibrant. So I've ordered these three sets.

That's a great bargain, Alan. Glad you could take advantage of it (I wish I could have got them for that!). You picked up on the difference just off the samples. As Antoine Marchand calls it, they sound like they're playing at a party (rather than a recital). That is the attraction for him, Que and myself (at least). And the sticking point for some others. No matter, you will either like them or not, but not because they aren't fun. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on October 29, 2011, 07:59:14 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 29, 2011, 07:49:03 AM
As Antoine Marchand calls it, they sound like they're playing at a party (rather than a recital). That is the attraction for him, Que and myself (at least).

Oh that's perfectly described. Even in the 30-second snippets I can tell that everyone present has been given a free balloon, and if there are free balloons on offer, then I want in. I'm quietly thinking that I may end up with the best of all possible worlds, actually, to get two ends of a spectrum like this. I had the Mosaiques in the player, and the Festetics on screen, playing the same 30 second samples alternately from each. (This is not a process called 'listening to music'; it's more like 'pin the tail on the donkey'.) But I tell you, there was some gasping and chuckling, and 'ooohing' and 'aaaahing' going on.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 29, 2011, 08:10:02 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on October 29, 2011, 07:59:14 AM
Oh that's perfectly described. Even in the 30-second snippets I can tell that everyone present has been given a free balloon, and if there are free balloons on offer, then I want in. I'm quietly thinking that I may end up with the best of all possible worlds, actually, to get two ends of a spectrum like this. I had the Mosaiques in the player, and the Festetics on screen, playing the same 30 second samples alternately from each. (This is not a process called 'listening to music'; it's more like 'pin the tail on the donkey'.) But I tell you, there was some gasping and chuckling, and 'ooohing' and 'aaaahing' going on.

:D Well, somewhere here, recently, I commented that the reason I liked the Mosaiques less was that they are too perfect. Which may well sound crazy on my part, but I like my Haydn well-played but a bit on the rollicking side. Festetics provide that. Minkowski does int he symphonies too. And others, of course. I just don't look at this as recital music. Instead, it's the music I live with. I want it out of the freakin' museum and in my living room. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Apollo Ensemble; Hsu - Hob 01_064 Symphony in A 1st mvmt - Allegro con spirito

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on October 30, 2011, 07:22:44 AM

Quote from: Arnold on October 26, 2011, 07:53:25 AM
Some Haydn that is a bit off the beaten track, at least for me, that I have recently acquired and enjoyed very much:

[asin]B0000057DU[/asin]

:)

I'm really getting into this disk!!! Fantastic playing and mastering, and it contains one of my most treasured musical works, Haydn's Trumpet Concerto 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 30, 2011, 07:28:05 AM

Quote from: Leo K on October 30, 2011, 07:22:44 AM
I'm really getting into this disk!!! Fantastic playing and mastering, and it contains one of my most treasured musical works, Haydn's Trumpet Concerto 8)

Coincidence? :o ;D I have the oboe concerto right now! This disc along with Pinnock's Stabat Mater recording have been my most recent favorites from Papa Joseph.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on October 30, 2011, 07:54:14 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 30, 2011, 07:28:05 AM

Coincidence? :o ;D I have the oboe concerto right now! This disc along with Pinnock's Stabat Mater recording have been my most recent favorites from Papa Joseph.

Nice!

I also LOVE Pinnock's account of Stabat Mater. INcredible. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on October 30, 2011, 08:03:07 AM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PKNSYBCKL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wMK78ntKL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (original cover?)

Another great, inspirational Haydn recording! I'm sure Gurn will get to this is due time, but I'd like to mention it and say, wow! It is a rare experience to hear these early works, Cantate from ca.1763-65!

The recording is wonderfully warm and detailed, and the performances are sharp and exciting, with much enthusiam. The works themselves, at least my first experience with the first cantata on the disk, is very much operatic.

;D 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on October 30, 2011, 08:53:47 AM

Quote from: Leo K on October 30, 2011, 07:22:44 AM
I'm really getting into this disk!!! Fantastic playing and mastering, and it contains one of my most treasured musical works, Haydn's Trumpet Concerto 8)

This is going to cost me money again, isn't it Leo?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on October 30, 2011, 10:40:01 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on October 30, 2011, 08:53:47 AM
This is going to cost me money again, isn't it Leo?

Oops! ;) I have a feeling it might!

When I think 18th Century, and want to exist in that world, Haydn's Trumpet Concerto is about the perfect time capsule! And, it is a most beautiful reflective work, not without fun and charm.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 30, 2011, 11:28:03 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on October 30, 2011, 08:53:47 AM
This is going to cost me money again, isn't it Leo?

Actually, that disk is generally available for a very few pounds, well worth it. There is another version that I haven't heard because it seemingly can't be purchased, and which is reputedly of a very high standard, but I always try to rec stuff you can actually buy, and this is the one to get. I do like the Hogwood version too, but I think to at least some degree, the authenticity is provided by the obvious struggle that the player has with the instrument, which he (to his credit) overcomes, but not without an ass-kicking along the way. :D

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnConcertosHogwoodcover.jpg)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Vienna Philharmonic; Schmidt-Isserstedt - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 1st mvmt - Allegro ma non troppo, un poco maestoso

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on October 30, 2011, 01:19:16 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 30, 2011, 11:28:03 AM
Actually, that disk is generally available for a very few pounds, well worth it.

Not a very few, at present. Having done the rounds, it seems I can get one for about £12 including postage (£10 if I order from the US), and the Hogwood is about the same. I'll wait a bit and keep my eye on things - I've spent far too much this month, taking advantage of immediate bargains.

Footnote: Just been listening to samples: I now realise how famous the trumpet concerto is! I just had never known what it was.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 30, 2011, 01:54:28 PM

Quote from: Elgarian on October 30, 2011, 01:19:16 PM
Not a very few, at present. Having done the rounds, it seems I can get one for about £12 including postage (£10 if I order from the US), and the Hogwood is about the same. I'll wait a bit and keep my eye on things - I've spent far too much this month, taking advantage of immediate bargains.

Footnote: Just been listening to samples: I now realise how famous the trumpet concerto is! I just had never known what it was.

Oh, over here, I bought it brand new about a year ago for $8, which is perhaps £3? So it has taken a bit of a leap in the intervening time. Probably in demand due to readers here... :D

8)

Edit: about 5, I see (4.96). :-\

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 30, 2011, 03:55:05 PM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413C-pBKXbL._SS500_.jpg)

A most favored recording.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 30, 2011, 04:00:40 PM

Quote from: Bogey on October 30, 2011, 03:55:05 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413C-pBKXbL._SS500_.jpg)

A most favored recording.

Hi Bill. All new players to me. Are they a rather compact group, or a large, cathedral-filling one? Nice work in either case. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bulldog on October 30, 2011, 04:16:03 PM

Quote from: Leo K on October 30, 2011, 08:03:07 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PKNSYBCKL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51wMK78ntKL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (original cover?)

Actually, it's the cover on the left that's the original. The one on the right is part of Harmonia Mundi's 2009 Haydn Edition. Personally, I much prefer the cover art on the original.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 30, 2011, 04:21:37 PM

Quote from: Bulldog on October 30, 2011, 04:16:03 PM
Actually, it's the cover on the left that's the original. The one on the right is part of Harmonia Mundi's 2009 Haydn Edition. Personally, I much prefer the cover art on the original.

Me too. I am guessing that's Esterhazy Palace. It's a nicer view than the one from a distance that you usually see.

Leo, yes, I was certainly going to bring that one up too. I have the one on the right, BTW. Nice music too; imagine having your own composer write you a "welcome home" cantata that is performed by your own musicians. It's good to be the Prince... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 30, 2011, 04:23:34 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 30, 2011, 04:00:40 PM
Hi Bill. All new players to me. Are they a rather compact group, or a large, cathedral-filling one? Nice work in either case. :)

8)

Seem decent size. Liner notes not in English.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 30, 2011, 04:24:35 PM

Quote from: Bulldog on October 30, 2011, 04:16:03 PM
Actually, it's the cover on the left that's the original. The one on the right is part of Harmonia Mundi's 2009 Haydn Edition. Personally, I much prefer the cover art on the original.

No question.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 30, 2011, 04:26:00 PM

Quote from: Bogey on October 30, 2011, 04:23:34 PM
Seem decent size. Liner notes not in English.

I thought French was a second language in Colorado... :D Well, maybe I'll find something on the interwebs about them. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Malcolm Bilson (Fortepiano - 1784 Stein copy) - Hob 16_49 Sonata in Eb for Keyboard 2nd mvmt - Adagio e cantabile

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 30, 2011, 04:38:04 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 30, 2011, 04:26:00 PM
I thought French was a second language in Colorado... :D Well, maybe I'll find something on the interwebs about them. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Malcolm Bilson (Fortepiano - 1784 Stein copy) - Hob 16_49 Sonata in Eb for Keyboard 2nd mvmt - Adagio e cantabile

The key for info that I would like is their make up in 1979....if you can find it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on October 30, 2011, 04:43:22 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 30, 2011, 11:28:03 AM
Actually, that disk is generally available for a very few pounds, well worth it. There is another version that I haven't heard because it seemingly can't be purchased, and which is reputedly of a very high standard, but I always try to rec stuff you can actually buy, and this is the one to get. I do like the Hogwood version too, but I think to at least some degree, the authenticity is provided by the obvious struggle that the player has with the instrument, which he (to his credit) overcomes, but not without an ass-kicking along the way. :D

I would like to hear this one since it has gotten good comments in a variety of places:

[asin]B000001WSY[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 30, 2011, 04:47:30 PM

Quote from: Arnold on October 30, 2011, 04:43:22 PM
I would like to hear this one since it has gotten good comments in a variety of places:

[asin]B000001WSY[/asin]

Yes, that's the one that I had in mind when I wrote that, but I couldn't remember the fellow's name. When I last looked it up, there were only a couple of copies there, starting at $40 or so. I'll follow your link and see if it's a better situation now. :)

8)

EDIT: How odd, now seems generally available, even priced well. It doesn't appear to be a re-release... :-\

----------------
Now playing:
Malcolm Bilson (Fortepiano - 1785 Walter copy) - Hob 16_52 Sonata in Eb for Keyboard 2nd mvmt - Adagio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 30, 2011, 04:55:56 PM

Missa Cellensis in honorem, H 22 no 5 "Cäcilienmesse"
Conductor: Frieder Bernius
Orchestra/Ensemble: Württemberg Chamber Orchestra Heilbronn

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/St_cecilia_guido_reni.jpg/200px-St_cecilia_guido_reni.jpg)

Probably should have waited until Nov. 22 for this one....but hey,.....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 30, 2011, 05:04:51 PM

Quote from: Bogey on October 30, 2011, 04:55:56 PM
Missa Cellensis in honorem, H 22 no 5 "Cäcilienmesse"
Conductor: Frieder Bernius
Orchestra/Ensemble: Württemberg Chamber Orchestra Heilbronn

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/St_cecilia_guido_reni.jpg/200px-St_cecilia_guido_reni.jpg)

Probably should have waited until Nov. 22 for this one....but hey,.....

Another 'Violin Babe', eh, Bill? We already have a thread for that. :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Malcolm Bilson (Fortepiano - 1785 Walter copy) - Hob 16_52 Sonata in Eb for Keyboard 3rd mvmt - Finale: Presto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 30, 2011, 05:06:46 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 30, 2011, 05:04:51 PM
Another 'Violin Babe', eh, Bill? We already have a thread for that. :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Malcolm Bilson (Fortepiano - 1785 Walter copy) - Hob 16_52 Sonata in Eb for Keyboard 3rd mvmt - Finale: Presto

Here you go:

The martyrdom of Cecilia is said to have followed that of her husband and his brother by the prefect Turcius Almachius.[5] The officers of the prefect then sought to have Cecilia killed as well. She arranged to have her home preserved as a church before she was arrested. At that time, the officials attempted to kill her by smothering her by steam. However, the attempt failed, and she was to have her head chopped off. But they were unsuccessful three times, and she would not die until she received the sacrament of Holy Communion.
Cecilia survived another three days before succumbing. In the last three days of her life, she opened her eyes, gazed at her family and friends who crowded around her cell, closed them, and never opened them again. The people by her cell knew immediately that she was to become a saint in heaven.[2] When her incorruptible body was found long after her death, it was found that on one hand she had two fingers outstretched and on the other hand just one finger, denoting her belief in the trinity.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 30, 2011, 05:09:14 PM

Kind of cool:

Quote from: Bogey on October 30, 2011, 05:08:39 PM
Saint Cecilia (Latin: Sancta Caecilia) is the patron saint of musicians and Church music because as she was dying she sang to God.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 30, 2011, 05:14:23 PM

Gurn,
Where might I find an English translation of this mass?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 30, 2011, 05:37:22 PM

Quote from: Bogey on October 30, 2011, 05:14:23 PM
Gurn,
Where might I find an English translation of this mass?

Go here http://www.chandos.net/Details06.asp?CNumber=CHAN%200667

and on the left side of the page, click "Download booklet PDF"

All the masses have the same words though, I don't see anything that is specific to this particular mass. Only the music was changed to protect the innocent... :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Paul Badura-Skoda - Hob 16_46 Sonata #31 in Ab for Keyboard 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 30, 2011, 05:41:31 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 30, 2011, 05:37:22 PM
Go here http://www.chandos.net/Details06.asp?CNumber=CHAN%200667

and on the left side of the page, click "Download booklet PDF"

All the masses have the same words though, I don't see anything that is specific to this particular mass. Only the music was changed to protect the innocent... :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Paul Badura-Skoda - Hob 16_46 Sonata #31 in Ab for Keyboard 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato

(http://www.conmania.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Joe-Friday.jpg)
You'd da man, Gurn!

Looks as though the mass is in honor of and not about St. Cecilia. Does this sound right to you?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 30, 2011, 05:50:26 PM

Quote from: Bogey on October 30, 2011, 05:41:31 PM
(http://www.conmania.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Joe-Friday.jpg)
You'd da man, Gurn!

Looks as though the mass is in honor of and not about St. Cecilia. Does this sound right to you?

Absolutely. I can't remember precisely how feast day masses were geared towards a particular honoree. But I don't doubt that Haydn turned some aspect of the music so that it was specific to her. He wrote a 2nd Cecelia mass also, in 1782. That would be Hob 22:8. It is actually (well, no surprise really, many years newer) a bit more free-flowing and condensed too. I prefer it, but hey, that's just me. :)

FYI, in the Hickox Complete Masses, the exact same text is used, and it represents the words for all 13 masses. So from first to last there is no change at all. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 30, 2011, 05:52:26 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 30, 2011, 05:50:26 PM
Absolutely. I can't remember precisely how feast day masses were geared towards a particular honoree. But I don't doubt that Haydn turned some aspect of the music so that it was specific to her. He wrote a 2nd Cecelia mass also, in 1782. That would be Hob 22:8. It is actually (well, no surprise really, many years newer) a bit more free-flowing and condensed too. I prefer it, but hey, that's just me. :)

FYI, in the Hickox Complete Masses, the exact same text is used, and it represents the words for all 13 masses. So from first to last there is no change at all. :)

8)

I just put that set on my wish-list prior to reading your post. Wise move?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 30, 2011, 05:56:03 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 30, 2011, 05:50:26 PM
He wrote a 2nd Cecelia mass also, in 1782. That would be Hob 22:8. It is actually (well, no surprise really, many years newer) a bit more free-flowing and condensed too. I prefer it, but hey, that's just me. :)

I will roll that one out tomorrow. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 30, 2011, 05:58:20 PM

Quote from: Bogey on October 30, 2011, 05:52:26 PM
I just put that set on my wish-list prior to reading your post. Wise move?

Well, it is a tad on the high side, and I have been getting a lot of feedback from our Hausmates that the Naxos set by the Rebel Baroque is a superior set and less than half the price. I think I would advise you at this point to consider that one instead. I like the Hickox a lot, but I think overall you would get more value (and more 'authenticity', whatever that is) from the Naxos set. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 30, 2011, 06:04:55 PM

Thanks! I will start there, then. Only $11 less, but the reviews are stronger. Seems Handel and Purcell also paid homage to St. Cecilia.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51S10XHYGML._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51pLCnOwlJL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I will follow with an avatar as well....have not changed it in a few hours, so here's to you MN Dave! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 30, 2011, 06:10:38 PM

Quote from: Bogey on October 30, 2011, 06:04:55 PM
Thanks! I will start there, then. Only $11 less, but the reviews are stronger. Seems Handel and Purcell also paid homage to St. Cecilia.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51S10XHYGML._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51pLCnOwlJL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Probably lots more than just them, too. She was the patron saint of musicians, and they all adopted her. There were Caecilian Societies, and the big "newsletter" of the time was The Caecilian.

I'm surprised the prices were that close. When I looked at the Naxos last week it was, like $32. The Chandos was going for <>$70 when last I saw. :-\

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Paul Badura-Skoda - Hob 17_9 Adagio in F for Keyboard

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 30, 2011, 06:12:35 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 30, 2011, 06:10:38 PM
Probably lots more than just them, too. She was the patron saint of musicians, and they all adopted her. There were Caecilian Societies, and the big "newsletter" of the time was The Caecilian.

I'm surprised the prices were that close. When I looked at the Naxos last week it was, like $32. The Chandos was going for <>$70 when last I saw. :-\

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Paul Badura-Skoda - Hob 17_9 Adagio in F for Keyboard

Well, that is what they get for trying to set a price on Haydn's music.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 30, 2011, 06:16:02 PM

Quote from: Bogey on October 30, 2011, 06:12:35 PM
Well, that is what they get for trying to set a price on Haydn's music.

:D Yep, priceless! 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 30, 2011, 06:21:55 PM

This caught my eye as well:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JopeK3zwL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 30, 2011, 09:12:36 PM

Quote from: Bogey on October 30, 2011, 06:04:55 PM
Seems Handel and Purcell also paid homage to St. Cecilia.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51S10XHYGML._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51pLCnOwlJL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

This mass has traditionally been associated to St. Cecilia (and known as Missa Sanctae Caeciliae or Cäcilienmesse), but the fact is that it was composed "in honorem Beatissimae Virginis Mariae", probably to be performed in 1766, during the feast of Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary, at the church of Mariazell. Perhaps the name Cäcilienmesse comes from a later version prepared for the Cäcilien-Congregation, or maybe from a performance on some St. Cecilia's day (22 November), but not from Haydn himself. Therefore, those names Missa Sanctae Caeciliae and Cäcilienmesse must be added to the other nicknames of the Haydn's works. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on October 31, 2011, 01:13:47 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 30, 2011, 04:21:37 PM
I am guessing that's Esterhazy Palace.

You're probably right:

https://picasaweb.google.com/111844303066587835259/Esterhaza?authkey=Gv1sRgCMr8kp7Ct4_9xwE#

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 31, 2011, 04:21:59 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 30, 2011, 09:12:36 PM
This mass has traditionally been associated to St. Cecilia (and known as Missa Sanctae Caeciliae or Cäcilienmesse), but the fact is that it was composed "in honorem Beatissimae Virginis Mariae", probably to be performed in 1766, during the feast of Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary, at the church of Mariazell. Perhaps the name Cäcilienmesse comes from a later version prepared for the Cäcilien-Congregation, or maybe from a performance on some St. Cecilia's day (22 November), but not from Haydn himself. Therefore, those names Missa Sanctae Caeciliae and Cäcilienmesse must be added to the other nicknames of the Haydn's works. :)

Sitting here with no reference works, Antoine, but unless I am sadly mistaken, the Mariazellermesse is the 2nd Cecelia mass, 22:8 from 1782. The date of the 1st one is all over the place, ranging from 1766 to 1773. Hard to draw any inferences from that... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 31, 2011, 04:23:09 AM

Quote from: mszczuj on October 31, 2011, 01:13:47 AM
You're probably right:

https://picasaweb.google.com/111844303066587835259/Esterhaza?authkey=Gv1sRgCMr8kp7Ct4_9xwE#

Very cool! Is that you? I'm jealous if it is, I would certainly enjoy to go there! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 31, 2011, 05:43:21 AM

Quote from: Arnold on October 30, 2011, 04:43:22 PM
I would like to hear this one since it has gotten good comments in a variety of places:

For those interested in the disc (pic at bottom), below is a post I left in the 'Old Musical Instrument' thread that might be of interest - :)

Keyed Trumpet - Haydn & Hummel 'Trumpet Concertos' - my only recording of works played on this 'short-lived' transitional trumpet that flourished briefly in the late 18th & early 19th centuries until replaced by the 'valved trumpet.' The Viennese court trumpeter, Anton Weidinger, is considered the impetus (possibly inventor?) behind development of the keyed trumpet which permitted playing the chromatic scale over several octaves (according to the liner notes).

In 1796, Haydn wrote his Trumpet Concerto for Weidinger; and around 1803, Hummel composed his concerto for the same performer. By 1815, Weidinger was at the height of his success and his instrument was apparently quite popular w/ numerous other works composed and concerts given highlighting the trumpet. During the 1820s (and by the early 1840s), the keyed trumpet had been replaced by the valved instrument.

Concerning the recording, Reinhold Friedrich is just excellent and the trumpet is played beautifully w/ a sound that hearkens back to the days of the 'valveless' instrument - not sure 'how many' other recordings exist w/ this older instrument, but I'll do some searching. A little more information can be found in this Wiki Article HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyed_trumpet) - :D

P.S. Picture of an older Friedrich w/ another style trumpet, added below, right - :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnHummelFriedrich/1211879818_Z9WTh-O.jpg) (http://www.reinhold-friedrich.de/typo3temp/pics/Reinhold_Friedrich01_442d18ebeb.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 31, 2011, 06:04:24 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 31, 2011, 04:21:59 AM
Sitting here with no reference works, Antoine, but unless I am sadly mistaken, the Mariazellermesse is the 2nd Cecelia mass, 22:8 from 1782. The date of the 1st one is all over the place, ranging from 1766 to 1773. Hard to draw any inferences from that... :-\

Gurn,
both masses - Hob. XXII:5 & XXII:8 - share the same title: Missa Cellensis. Haydn included his mass of around 1766 under this title in his catalogue, but for a long time it was thought that he had made a mistake and this entry was a wrong reference to the mass of 1782. But currently it's clear that both of them were dedicated to the Mariazell church and that's the reason why these masses share the same title. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 31, 2011, 06:21:09 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 31, 2011, 06:04:24 AM
Gurn,
both masses - Hob. XXII:5 & XXII:8 - share the same title: Missa Cellensis. Haydn included his mass of around 1766 under this title in his catalogue, but for a long time it was thought that he had made a mistake and this entry was a wrong reference to the mass of 1782. But currently it's clear that both of them were dedicated to the Mariazell church and that's the reason why these masses share the same title. :)

Ah, OK, makes sense (as much as anything does, it seems). I was pretty sure the 2nd one had that name, but I haven't seen the first called anything but the 1st Cecelia Mass... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 31, 2011, 06:24:54 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 31, 2011, 06:21:09 AM
Ah, OK, makes sense (as much as anything does, it seems). I was pretty sure the 2nd one had that name, but I haven't seen the first called anything but the 1st Cecelia Mass... :)

Yes, a good nickname is simply irresistible. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 31, 2011, 06:34:11 AM

BTW, Gurn, talking about the masses, some weeks ago I needed to do a superhuman effort to resist this temptation:

(http://cover7.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/54/1178654.jpg)
(Nice picture of Gabriel on the cover!)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0000042DO/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&qid=1320071216&sr=8-15&condition=used

It's tempting, isn't it? ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 31, 2011, 06:48:09 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 31, 2011, 06:34:11 AM
BTW, Gurn, talking about the masses, some weeks ago I needed to do a superhuman effort to resist this temptation:

(http://cover7.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/54/1178654.jpg)
(Nice picture of Gabriel on the cover!)

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0000042DO/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&qid=1320071216&sr=8-15&condition=used

It's tempting, isn't it? ;D

Well, with the Rebel/Naxos in my cart, I have an easier time to resist temptation. In my experience, one could easily have too many masses. :)

I think you need to take up my invitation to discuss the Austrian tradition of inserting sonatas, concertos and even symphonies into the liturgical music. Surely this intrigues more than just myself. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on October 31, 2011, 07:05:42 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 31, 2011, 06:48:09 AM
Well, with the Rebel/Naxos in my cart, I have an easier time to resist temptation. In my experience, one could easily have too many masses. :)

These days I have consistently been listening to those Naxos discs and are really fantastic. I am especially in love with their two sopranos: Ann Hoyt and Julie Liston. Their white (I am thinking in the notion of voce bianca), pure, juvenile voices are so incredibly suited to this music! Even the Cäcilienmesse sounds airy and light, when it is sung by those two angels.

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 31, 2011, 06:48:09 AM
I think you need to take up my invitation to discuss the Austrian tradition of inserting sonatas, concertos and even symphonies into the liturgical music. Surely this intrigues more than just myself. :)

It sounds very interesting and intriguing, indeed. I will search for some information. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 31, 2011, 07:54:16 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 31, 2011, 07:05:42 AM
It sounds very interesting and intriguing, indeed. I will search for some information. :)

Indeed it does, and should be. I chose that little gem especially for you, knowing your proclivities. Que and Florestan might find it toothsome also. The Mozart Epistle Sonatas fit nicely into this category as well as the Haydn early keyboard concertos.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on October 31, 2011, 08:17:50 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 31, 2011, 07:54:16 AM
Indeed it does, and should be. I chose that little gem especially for you, knowing your proclivities. Que and Florestan might find it toothsome also.

Ha ha! Thanks for the confidence. :)

Quote
The Mozart Epistle Sonatas fit nicely into this category as well as the Haydn early keyboard concertos.

Never heard about them. Care to elaborate, please?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 31, 2011, 08:27:05 AM

Quote from: Florestan on October 31, 2011, 08:17:50 AM
Ha ha! Thanks for the confidence. :)

Never heard about them. Care to elaborate, please?

Oh dear! :o Mozart (and most other Austrian composers, I think) wrote a dozen or so 4-6 minute sonatas (orchestrated with 2 violins, organ, whatever other instruments are available) and which are played after (before?) the Epistle in the mass. They are generally quite tuneful, I enjoy just to listen to them on their own. Mozart's can be associated with specific masses, usually, in the same manner that his orchestral marches can be fixed to specific serenades.

I just find the concept that this clearly secular music was generally used during the mass to be quite interesting. Thought you might be too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on October 31, 2011, 08:33:27 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 31, 2011, 08:27:05 AM
I just find the concept that this clearly secular music was generally used during the mass to be quite interesting.

8)

That took me by surprise when I read your post some pages ago. Along with the fact that Haydn had a wife*!

*No, not Boccherini.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 31, 2011, 08:35:54 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 31, 2011, 08:27:05 AM
Oh dear! :o Mozart (and most other Austrian composers, I think) wrote a dozen or so 4-6 minute sonatas (orchestrated with 2 violins, organ, whatever other instruments are available) and which are played after (before?) the Epistle in the mass. They are generally quite tuneful, I enjoy just to listen to them on their own. Mozart's can be associated with specific masses, usually, in the same manner that his orchestral marches can be fixed to specific serenades.

I just find the concept that this clearly secular music was generally used during the mass to be quite interesting. Thought you might be too. :)

8)

Yes, a corner of my curiosity upon which I've not yet acted . . . .

(Maybe I read something about it in Gutman . . . .)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 31, 2011, 08:40:05 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on October 31, 2011, 08:33:27 AM
That took me by surprise when I read your post some pages ago. Along with the fact that Haydn had a wife*!

*No, not Boccherini.

Seems to have taken him by surprise, as far as that goes. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 31, 2011, 08:41:38 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 31, 2011, 08:35:54 AM

Yes, a corner of my curiosity upon which I've not yet acted . . . .

(Maybe I read something about it in Gutman . . . .)

You did, actually. Not enough to explain it, just the fact that it existed. Perhaps you (and Navneeth) would like to join the posse that I'm trying to organize to research it? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on October 31, 2011, 09:12:51 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 31, 2011, 07:05:42 AM
These days I have consistently been listening to those Naxos discs and are really fantastic. I am especially in love with their two sopranos: Ann Hoyt and Julie Liston.

Oh yes. So am I. They seem perfectly attuned to those Masses.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on November 02, 2011, 02:05:23 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 31, 2011, 04:23:09 AM
( https://picasaweb.google.com/111844303066587835259/Esterhaza?authkey=Gv1sRgCMr8kp7Ct4_9xwE# )

Very cool! Is that you?

Can't you recognize me looking on my avatar?

Quote
I'm jealous if it is, I would certainly enjoy to go there! :)

But it was not very enjoyable term as interiors were in restoration.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 02, 2011, 06:12:59 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 30, 2011, 09:12:36 PM
This mass has traditionally been associated to St. Cecilia (and known as Missa Sanctae Caeciliae or Cäcilienmesse), but the fact is that it was composed "in honorem Beatissimae Virginis Mariae", probably to be performed in 1766, during the feast of Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary, at the church of Mariazell. Perhaps the name Cäcilienmesse comes from a later version prepared for the Cäcilien-Congregation, or maybe from a performance on some St. Cecilia's day (22 November), but not from Haydn himself. Therefore, those names Missa Sanctae Caeciliae and Cäcilienmesse must be added to the other nicknames of the Haydn's works. :)

Ah! Yes, and upon further thought, the Mass would not change for the music or the Saint that is being celebrated. Feast of Saints are celebrated all the time at Mass (at least in the Catholic Church). The Mass is, well, The Mass. The Saint(s) may be mentioned here and there, but the sequence of the Mass and its attributes (save the readings) remains unchanged in procedure (keeping in mind the Third Roman Missel). So, music that accompanies the Mass might vary, but the Mass would stay the same. Sound right?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 02, 2011, 06:17:11 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 30, 2011, 05:50:26 PM
. That would be Hob 22:8. It is actually (well, no surprise really, many years newer) a bit more free-flowing and condensed too. I prefer it, but hey, that's just me. :)

8)

Took it in....a beauty!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 02, 2011, 06:38:04 PM

Quote from: Bogey on November 02, 2011, 06:12:59 PM
Ah! Yes, and upon further thought, the Mass would not change for the music or the Saint that is being celebrated. Feast of Saints are celebrated all the time at Mass (at least in the Catholic Church). The Mass is, well, The Mass. The Saint(s) may be mentioned here and there, but the sequence of the Mass and its attributes (save the readings) remains unchanged in procedure (keeping in mind the Third Roman Missel). So, music that accompanies the Mass might vary, but the Mass would stay the same. Sound right?

Yep. Back in my altar boy days, it was pretty much a saint-a-day. The Missal had a thumbnail sketch of each one, and maybe a small homily relating the reason for sainthood and how it should inspire one. But the mass never changed. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 02, 2011, 06:41:24 PM

Quote from: Bogey on November 02, 2011, 06:17:11 PM
Took it in....a beauty!

Yes, it is rather. My favorite of the early masses (except, perhaps, the 'Grosseorgelsolomesse' (Hob 22:4 of 1768)). :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 05, 2011, 07:57:00 AM

Part 6

1757

Well, let's move forward to 1757. I'm not sure I understand the sudden appearance of so many works, beginning in this year. Did Haydn suddenly find his muse? Or conversely, is it a case of manuscripts being preserved where previously they weren't? My personal belief is that his expanding social circle, which now included the likes of the famous Countess Thun and the Fürnburg family (for whom he wrote his first divertimentos/string quartets) served the dual purpose of spurring on his composing as well as providing an environment in which his music could survive. I haven't seen a better explanation than that, although there probably is one. :)

And speaking of those divertimentos, we now encounter something that will plague us for the next 2 decades, so I might as well explain my solution here now. The dates listed for these "Divertimenti a Quattro", which were NOT composed as sets but merely assembled into Op 1 & 2 many years later by publishers, are narrowed down to the years 1757-61. In order to put a representation across that time line, I took the 10 authentic works and placed 2 in each of the 5 years. Who can possibly know the actual order of composition? Possibly it was 3 in '57, 3 in '59 and 4 in '61!?! So I just went with what gave the best representation. If that invalidates this entire list for you, then it's time to bail out right now, because this is only one example where the dates of composition are a best guess; many interpret that to mean that they are simply a wild-ass guess, but that isn't so, there are nearly always many pieces of circumstantial evidence to support them.

Lots and lots of music in this year. Some groundbreakers too, like the first symphonies. AND the first string quartets (well, as near as dammit). And many string trios. When one keeps in mind that it was commonplace to compose in sets of 12 in that time, the 12 string trios don't seem so unusual. The 8 keyboard trios are a little more unusual number, although there could easily be 4 missing, or else it might be a set of 6 (also very common) plus a pair of singles. It is so hard to know absolutely what the story is.

Biographically, and probably lending a lot of weight to the sudden outburst of music for the year, 1757 is almost certainly the year in which Haydn was hired to be the musical director for Count Karl Joseph Franz Morzin. This not only gave him the luxury of time to compose and play, but also provided him with the necessary security to allow him to exercise that talent that he had worked so hard to develop. Plus, a band to play his music. That was better than money (which he didn't get a lot of).

The music of 1757;

Hob 01_001 Symphony in D
The Hanover Band / Goodman
Hob 01_037 Symphony in C
Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Goodman01_05cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HogwoodVol01cover-1.jpg)

Hob 02_20 Divertimento a nove Stromenti in F for 2 Oboes, 2 Horns, 2 Violins, 2 Violas & Basso
Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnEarlyDivertimenticover.jpg)

Hob 03_01 Divertimento in Bb for Strings Op 1 #1
Hob 03_02 Divertimento in Eb for Strings Op 1 #2
Hamburg Soloists / Emil Klein
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKleinStringdivertimentos.jpg)

Hob 05_01 Divertimento á tre in Eb for 2 Violins & Bass
Hob 05_02 Divertimento á tre in F for 2 Violins & Bass
Hob 05_06 Divertimento á tre in Eb for 2 Violins & Bass
Hob 05_08 Divertimento á tre in Bb for Violin, Viola & Bass
Hob 05_11 Divertimento á tre in Eb for 2 Violins & Bass
Hob 05_13 Divertimento á tre in Bb for 2 Violins & Bass
Hob 05_15 Divertimento á tre in D for 2 Violins & Bass
Das Wiener Philharmonia Trio
Hob 05_03 Divertimento á tre in b for 2 Violins & Bass
Hob 05_04 Divertimento á tre in Eb for 2 Violins & Bass
Hob 05_07 Divertimento á tre in A for 2 Violins & Bass
Hob 05_10 Divertimento á tre in F for 2 Violins & Bass
Hob 05_12 Divertimento á tre in E for 2 Violins & Bass
Camerata Berolinensis
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnStringTriosvol1cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnStringTriosvol2cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Str3o1.jpg)

Hob 15_01 Trio (Divertimento) in g for Keyboard & Strings
Hob 15_34 Trio (Divertimento) in E for Keyboard & Strings
Hob 15_35 Trio (Divertimento) in A for Keyboard & Strings
Hob 15_37 Trio (Divertimento) in F for Keyboard & Strings
Hob 15_38 Trio (Divertimento) in Bb for Keyboard & Strings
Hob 15_40 Trio (Divertimento) in F for Keyboard & Strings
Hob 15_41 Trio (Divertimento) in G for Keyboard & Strings
Hob 15_C1 Trio (Divertimento) in C for Keyboard & Strings
Trio 1790
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/1790v8.jpg)

Hob 16_G1 Sonata (Divertimento) #4 in G for Keyboard
Yuko Wataya
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardWatayaEarlySonatascover.jpg)

The first symphonies are here, the first symphonies are here!!! If you haven't listened to them, then on your first listen please tell me if I'm the only one who felt that they were recognizably Haydn. This seems to have been an arena in which his unique voice could be heard right from the start. In these earliest ones, the only readily available PI choices are Goodman & Hogwood. I chose one of each because I like them both and wanted good representation. You could go with either one if you are still shopping and not feel at all slighted whichever you ended up with. Except, of course, Goodman's use of a (barely audible to me) harpsichord continuo while Hogwood disparaged the concept. The question of whether it is appropriate has never been adequately resolved, although I am in the camp that maintains that the use of continuo was so universally accepted that there was no need to notate it. In any case, both of these sets of symphonies are strong contenders. If you have access to really obscure and totally OOP CD's, you will be able to discover that L'Estro Armonico / Solomons also made a set called "The Morzin Symphonies", which I have some recordings that a friend made from his LP's, but I can't recommend them, no matter their wonderful quality, since I have taken a solemn vow to not recommend things that no one can find anywhere so you don't hunt me down and put a stake through my heart.... :D

I find it quite odd that the earliest string quartets (I will call them that in the interest of moving along) do not appear to have ever been recorded in toto by a period instrument group. I do have a pair of them in a future year that I will introduce, but for this year, my best choice is this Hamburg Soloists / Klein performance, which is more than acceptable in any case, it is downright good! As a bonus, it also contains the works that used to be quartets + 2 horns, which have now been returned to their proper place among the Hob 2 divertimentos. The only other recording that I have is a nicely played one by the Kodaly Quartet on Naxos, and I think the Tatrai actually go back as far as these also. But the nicely burnished sound of the Klein group makes an old HIP/PI as content as possible, given the metal strings. :)

I really wish that there were more recordings of the string trios of Hob 5 to choose from. If more people would hear these, I have no doubt that they would be popular. As it is, the set by the Vienna Philharmonia String Trio, which was only released beginning in 2002 (Vol. 1 recorded in 2001) is the only complete set ever made, and is virtually impossible to find complete today. The other choice, and my favorite, is the 2 disks by the Camerata Berolinensis. It appears that they were shooting for a complete PI cycle, but disk 2 was released in 2006 and they haven't been heard from since. :-\ In any case, if the opportunity arises for you to acquire any of these disks, please avail yourself. No regrets!

Another new genre for this year is the Keyboard Trio. I don't claim to be a purist (maybe a wannabe purist ::) ) but since the sound of the harpsichord on these Trio 1790 recordings grew on me to the point that I don't care for others, I went with just this one set. AFAIK, there is no other that encompasses the full extent of these works with the correct period instrument. If you don't care for the sound of the cembalo, I can easily recommend the Van Swieten Trio here too. And for you MI guys, the Beaux Arts Trio's eternally entertaining recordings are still a solid choice. Trio 1790 for me, though.... :)

And for the year's sole keyboard sonata, I chose Wataya, also because of the instrument. Schornsheim plays it on a cembalo, and so does Beghin, while Brautigam and Ursula Dütschler both use fortepianos. Wataya, however, plays it on a clavichord, and it really sounds natural and very nice. There are other versions out there (on modern instruments), but ultimately I am quite content with this one. :)

Please inundate me with feedback, comment, complaint, question etc. It makes me think and I appreciate that. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 05, 2011, 08:21:13 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 05, 2011, 07:57:00 AM
Part the 6th;

The first symphonies are here, the first symphonies are here!!! If you haven't listened to them, then on your first listen please tell me if I'm the only one who felt that they were recognizably Haydn. This seems to have been an arena in which his unique voice could be heard right from the start. In these earliest ones, the only readily available PI choices are Goodman & Hogwood. I chose one of each because I like them both and wanted good representation. You could go with either one if you are still shopping and not feel at all slighted whichever you ended up with. Except, of course, Goodman's use of a (barely audible to me) harpsichord continuo while Hogwood disparaged the concept.

All of the disks mentioned are PI with the exception of the Klein quartets. If there is a PI version of these works, I haven't seen it yet. I do have 2 of them on a different disk, but neither of these is included. We can discuss some differences when we get there though. There are some. :)

Please inundate me with feedback, comment, complaint, question etc. It makes me think and I appreciate that. :)

8)

Very interesting. I am not sure I agree quite as strongly as you that the early symphonies are 'recognizably Haydn'. When I first listened, I was surpirsed at how un-Haydn (can I say that?) these are. It is only when you start to listen to them back to back to the later ones that I realized there was more there than I orignially thought. It may also have to do with to whom and to what you compare them, so perhaps this is not a cut and dried area. Maybe I'll listen to them with the Londons (an every other one type thing) to see if something jumps out at me. A fun listening exercise.

Just a thought as well, but maybe you will want to add a separate divertimento post that will put them all into context of the 20 years on top of your current intent? It might be interesting, though I am not sure how much extra work that would take for you.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 05, 2011, 08:30:20 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 05, 2011, 08:21:13 AM
Very interesting. I am not sure I agree quite as strongly as you that the early symphonies are 'recognizably Haydn'. When I first listened, I was surpirsed at how un-Haydn (can I say that?) these are. It is only when you start to listen to them back to back to the later ones that I realized there was more there than I orignially thought. It may also have to do with to whom and to what you compare them, so perhaps this is not a cut and dried area. Maybe I'll listen to them with the Londons (an every other one type thing) to see if something jumps out at me. A fun listening exercise.

Yes it is, and just what I was hoping you would do. One consistent thing you will see in the symphonies, and the London's provide a good example of it, is that Haydn included a lot of concertante writing for solo instruments from beginning to end. He is one of the very few composers who was around for the period of time that it took for that to be part of his work. In the 1750's, the modern symphony was beginning to emerge from the Italian sinfonia, and that had its roots in the concerto grosso which was of course based on having soloists throughout. Listen for some of those parts early and late, as an example of Haydnesque composing. :)

QuoteJust a thought as well, but maybe you will want to add a separate divertimento post that will put them all into context of the 20 years on top of your current intent? It might be interesting, though I am not sure how much extra work that would take for you.

Extra work is of no significance, since this is my hobby after all. But I do want to understand exactly what you are asking for and I would like to comply with that, since it sounds interesting if I take your meaning. Do you mean to track the use of 'divertimento' from the beginning to the point where each genre reached its eventual name and style? I think I can do that. I'll have a go. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 05, 2011, 08:44:05 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 05, 2011, 08:30:20 AM
Extra work is of no significance, since this is my hobby after all. But I do want to understand exactly what you are asking for and I would like to comply with that, since it sounds interesting if I take your meaning. Do you mean to track the use of 'divertimento' from the beginning to the point where each genre reached its eventual name and style? I think I can do that. I'll have a go. :)

8)

Well don't do it for me unless you want to do it for yourself. Yes - that was a good part of it. Since we cannot be sure of the exact timing, a broader look at what he was composing, how they developed, and their influence on other works (or vice versa) might reveal more than just sticking a couple in there to intersperse them in particular periods. Not being an expert on this area, I don't know if there is enough info on the general time period or order they were written that gives this enough value, but it seemed like it could be revealing. Perhaps you or others will have other ideas to transform this one, but that was what I was thinking.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on November 05, 2011, 09:11:06 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 05, 2011, 07:57:00 AMPlease inundate me with feedback, comment, complaint, question etc. It makes me think and I appreciate that.

Comment (inane and otherwise) I can provide, but I don't know enough to say anything that will make you think! I bought a raft of those Goodman sets a while back - Presto had a great deal going on them, and I munched away at them like chocolates as they kept dropping through the letterbox every few days. Shame Goodman's cycle was never finished.

To be honest, it never occurred to me to ask whether those early symphonies sounded like Haydn. I just walloped them into the player and found them eminently likeable, eminently approachable (perhaps more so than the more mature and famous London and Paris sets), without thinking consciously about them very much. I think I'm still at the stage of building up a basic familiarity with his musical arena - no, wait - musical arenas. All those trios and divertimenti are still unexplored territory for me (meanwhile, a heap of bargain Festetics quartets dropped through the door yesterday (hoorah!!), and it'll take me a long time to work through them all).

I'm away for a week or so starting tomorrow - so my silence here will not be a sign of a lack of interest, but merely a lack of presence....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 05, 2011, 09:32:24 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 05, 2011, 08:44:05 AM
Well don't do it for me unless you want to do it for yourself. Yes - that was a good part of it. Since we cannot be sure of the exact timing, a broader look at what he was composing, how they developed, and their influence on other works (or vice versa) might reveal more than just sticking a couple in there to intersperse them in particular periods. Not being an expert on this area, I don't know if there is enough info on the general time period or order they were written that gives this enough value, but it seemed like it could be revealing. Perhaps you or others will have other ideas to transform this one, but that was what I was thinking.

No, even the string quartet bible, "The String Quartets of Joseph Haydn" by Grave and Grave admits defeat in that particular aspect. There is no apparent linear progression throughout Opera 1 & 2, nor even any concrete reason to call them Opp 1 & 2, since they are all approximately equal in ideas and development of same. Hoboken started by calling Op 1 #1 "Hob III:1" since there was no other place to start, it seems.

I do agree with you though, if one could be absolutely certain of anything from that time, it would gave a pediment on which to build. But what I see so far is that back in those early days, he simply wrote 'divertimenti' (in the pure sense of 'entertainment music') for whichever combination of instruments presented itself. His ones for 2 violins, viola & Baßo were not, in his mind, string quartets. But at that pleasant summer outing at the Fürnburg's, these were the instrumentalists who were present to play. Then, ex post facto, he realized the potentialities of the grouping and moved along with it. Nothing I have read (which is everything I can get my hands on) solidly suggests that it was any more than that.

Has anyone had a go at those string trios? I am inordinately fond of those. I point out that the only one in the form that became the norm for the genre, that is, violin, viola & Baßo (cello?), was composed early times here, being #8 in Bb. All the rest were for 2 violins and Baßo. If these seem like an inordinately large number, keep in mind that this sort of music was nearly always collected into folios of 6 or 12, sometimes more. Thus the 12 string trios and the 6 (plus an odd one) keyboard trios are actually typical of the time. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 05, 2011, 09:43:37 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on November 05, 2011, 09:11:06 AM
Comment (inane and otherwise) I can provide, but I don't know enough to say anything that will make you think! I bought a raft of those Goodman sets a while back - Presto had a great deal going on them, and I munched away at them like chocolates as they kept dropping through the letterbox every few days. Shame Goodman's cycle was never finished.

To be honest, it never occurred to me to ask whether those early symphonies sounded like Haydn. I just walloped them into the player and found them eminently likeable, eminently approachable (perhaps more so than the more mature and famous London and Paris sets), without thinking consciously about them very much. I think I'm still at the stage of building up a basic familiarity with his musical arena - no, wait - musical arenas. All those trios and divertimenti are still unexplored territory for me (meanwhile, a heap of bargain Festetics quartets dropped through the door yesterday (hoorah!!), and it'll take me a long time to work through them all).

I'm away for a week or so starting tomorrow - so my silence here will not be a sign of a lack of interest, but merely a lack of presence....

Wonderful bit there, Alan. Delighted that our previous discussions yielded pleasure for you. :)

My very first of the early symphonies was the Dorati/"London/Decca Weekend Classics" disk of "Morning, Noon and Night", symphonies 6-8. Wasn't at all sure what to expect when I popped it in, since my total Haydn symphony listening began with Paris and ended with London. But right from the first movement I felt right at home, with a familiar composer speaking a familiar language. I don't know for sure what being "Haydnesque" consists in structurally, but whatever it is, it was present from early on. At least to MY ear. :)

I wholeheartedly believe that you will be very pleased with the Festetics. Your aesthetic sensibility seems congruent with my own, and I surely am. As for the trios, the 2 ( :'( ) disks by Camerata Berolinensis are both available at a good price, and I think would also give solid satisfaction. Recordings of these works are so thin on the ground as to be virtually non-existent. In the other series, which is 6 disks (and very nice they are), after 2 years I still only have the first 4. And that was a real effort.

For the early keyboard trios (and the late ones for that matter), if you haven't already got the van Sweiten Trio's box on Brilliant, then I understand the Trio 1790 set on cpo comes available in Europe for a great price from time to time. I use it mainly for the harpsichord in the early works, but there are dozens of great versions of the later ones. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on November 05, 2011, 11:16:49 AM

(http://img3.douban.com/lpic/s4524338.jpg)

Gurn, you got me getting my big Haydn box out this morning to listen to more of those early symphonies, which I felt were revelatory when I started listening to them for the first time. I began this box last month, starting with the D major Symphony on the first disk. I too heard Haydn's language right away, despite his first efforts here.

Like his Op.1 divertimentos for four strings (on the Naxos complete string quartet collection), his language and personally are right there! I am glad to be finally hearing the early works and enjoying them just as much as the late work. It is a bad habit of mine to stick to the late works of my favorites, but I guess it depends on the availability, and the interest. In Mozart, for example, I stick to his late works simply because I know his early work, and I want the time to explore the unknown ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 05, 2011, 11:24:15 AM

Quote from: Leo K on November 05, 2011, 11:16:49 AM
(http://img3.douban.com/lpic/s4524338.jpg)

Gurn, you got me getting my big Haydn box out this morning to listen to more of those early symphonies, which I felt were revelatory when I started listening to them for the first time. I began this box last month, starting with the D major Symphony on the first disk. I too heard Haydn's language right away, despite his first efforts here.

Like his Op.1 divertimentos for four strings (on the Naxos complete string quartet collection), his language and personally are right there! I am glad to be finally hearing the early works and enjoying them just as much as the late work. It is a bad habit of mine to stick to the late works of my favorites, but I guess it depends on the availability, and the interest. In Mozart, for example, I stick to his late works simply because I know his early work, and I want the time to explore the unknown ;D

Leo,
Ah, so you are liking that Davies box. Great! One of the things that I am hoping to do here is to present the chronology a bit more clearly. I have put some of that info in here and there, but it's so hard to keep track of. I am very nearly tempted to start naming my ripped files as "Hob 01_037 Symphony #2 in C...." and see if that won't help me remember them a bit more. I wish the publishers would have some sort of a go at that, but not likely, I guess.

Interesting that your take on the early symphonies was the same as mine. I guess there is a variety of reactions to the early works. I happen to like the early works of many composers, Haydn and Mozart particularly. The people (and they are legion!) who won't listen to any Mozart below K 250 simply don't know what they are missing. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 05, 2011, 11:48:05 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 05, 2011, 09:32:24 AM

Has anyone had a go at those string trios? I am inordinately fond of those. I point out that the only one in the form that became the norm for the genre, that is, violin, viola & Baßo (cello?), was composed early times here, being #8 in Bb. All the rest were for 2 violins and Baßo. If these seem like an inordinately large number, keep in mind that this sort of music was nearly always collected into folios of 6 or 12, sometimes more. Thus the 12 string trios and the 6 (plus an odd one) keyboard trios are actually typical of the time. :)

Gurn - again, thanks for all of the additional information added since my last visit - Papa Haydn's early works are certainly not easy to sort out so all of us interested appreciate your efforts (presumably over the years!).

Concerning the 'String Trios', I cannot add much at all having not heard them yet - but I'll take a look on Amazon later and see what is available? I suspect not much. Also my book by Daniel Heartz arrived, but the time table beings w/ 1781, so I suspect there is much more on these early Haydn works in the previous two volumes.

Some new arrivals pertinent to a number of your comments - the early divertimenti discs w/ Huss arrived and doing a second listen this weekend; of course, most of these works are w/ winds and am enjoying completely! Also decided to pick up the 2 5-disc boxes of the Haydn SQs w/ Quatuor Mosaiques; already had some of these discs but 10 CDs for about $50 on the Amazon MP - hard to resist! Dave :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41E3OEzRiHL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51D1UfJXK1L._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516xBEHQ2FL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on November 05, 2011, 11:52:00 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 05, 2011, 11:24:15 AM
Leo,
Ah, so you are liking that Davies box. Great! One of the things that I am hoping to do here is to present the chronology a bit more clearly. I have put some of that info in here and there, but it's so hard to keep track of. I am very nearly tempted to start naming my ripped files as "Hob 01_037 Symphony #2 in C...." and see if that won't help me remember them a bit more. I wish the publishers would have some sort of a go at that, but not likely, I guess.

Interesting that your take on the early symphonies was the same as mine. I guess there is a variety of reactions to the early works. I happen to like the early works of many composers, Haydn and Mozart particularly. The people (and they are legion!) who won't listen to any Mozart below K 250 simply don't know what they are missing. :)

8)

Oh yeah, I had forgotten to mention how much I've been enjoying the Davies Haydn box! The sound is particuarly good, well mastered and natural to the ear. The performances are PI influenced and I don't miss the fact these are modern instruments, as the performances are gritty, sensual and fun. Special mention to the horns! Great projections of sound!

I'm just starting to understand the Hob numbering and the naming/cataloging of the genres and that the numbering of works can now be vastly different (due to new discoveries of scholarship), but the old numbers remain for reference. This is helpful!

And YES, early Mozart is incredible!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on November 05, 2011, 01:17:30 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 05, 2011, 09:43:37 AMMy very first of the early symphonies was the Dorati/"London/Decca Weekend Classics" disk of "Morning, Noon and Night", symphonies 6-8. Wasn't at all sure what to expect when I popped it in, since my total Haydn symphony listening began with Paris and ended with London. But right from the first movement I felt right at home, with a familiar composer speaking a familiar language. I don't know for sure what being "Haydnesque" consists in structurally, but whatever it is, it was present from early on. At least to MY ear. :)

Yes, that's a good way of putting it for me too. When I started on the Goodman symphonies (I worked through roughly in chronological order) something like your sense of a familiar language was there from the start; except that it was a language that I didn't know I could get a grip on until I heard it, and then found all was surprisingly well. At home, you call it - yes, that's right. Actually I felt so at home, so comfy, that I listened to too many symphonies too fast; I need to go back and add some detail to the blurred memory.

QuoteI wholeheartedly believe that you will be very pleased with the Festetics. Your aesthetic sensibility seems congruent with my own, and I surely am.

I've now listened to a couple of the opus 20 quartets that I felt I knew reasonably well from the Mosaiques set, and I must say they're a joy. Thanks very much for pointing me in that direction. They bopped and scrunched all around the room. But I don't in the least regret the Mosaiques purchase; they do adopt more of a 'recital' mode, as you called it, but I don't detect the least hint of sterility. I fancy they have a more ethereal approach, which convinces me with its own kind of healing validity, in between the party-on sessions that the Festetics seem to want to invite me to. I exaggerate of course, to stress my point, but you know by now that I'm prone to that, Gurn!

Further recommendations noted with thanks. I'll get there one day!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 05, 2011, 03:08:13 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on November 05, 2011, 11:48:05 AM
Gurn - again, thanks for all of the additional information added since my last visit - Papa Haydn's early works are certainly not easy to sort out so all of us interested appreciate your efforts (presumably over the years!).

You are most welcome. Yes, I started seriously researching Haydn in 2007, so it has been a while now. Between hunting for books and hunting for music, Haydn has been the biggest challenge of my composer studies. Someone wrote recently here that Haydn was the last of the admittedly great composers to be written about. I can attest to that! :o

QuoteConcerning the 'String Trios', I cannot add much at all having not heard them yet - but I'll take a look on Amazon later and see what is available? I suspect not much. Also my book by Daniel Heartz arrived, but the time table beings w/ 1781, so I suspect there is much more on these early Haydn works in the previous two volumes.

[asin]B000CAKZJO[/asin][asin]B000M2DJTA[/asin]

I link these 2 in Amazon. If you can't find the Camerata disks (and you won't, not all of them anyway) then these are your only other choice. It isn't like you are settling for something though, they are excellent, both music and playing. :)

You're right about Heartz too. Damn, I sure would like to have volume 1 of that set. The price is outrageous for a used book though. I can't imagine the publisher never having released it in trade paper though. Big boo there, since a lot of interested parties can't really pay $300 for a book... :-\

QuoteSome new arrivals pertinent to a number of your comments - the early divertimenti discs w/ Huss arrived and doing a second listen this weekend; of course, most of these works are w/ winds and am enjoying completely! Also decided to pick up the 2 5-disc boxes of the Haydn SQs w/ Quatuor Mosaiques; already had some of these discs but 10 CDs for about $50 on the Amazon MP - hard to resist! Dave :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41E3OEzRiHL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51D1UfJXK1L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516xBEHQ2FL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I was sure you would like that box. Right up your alley after all. And some real little gems, like Hob II:22 & 23, the original '2 horn' versions of the 'string quartets' that are missing from Op 2. They sure sound better with the horns, don't they? :)

I have those same 2 boxes by the Mosaiques, no regrets at all (although I spent a tad more on them than you did). Even though I find them to be a shade more formal than my preference (the Festetics), nonetheless, they are beautifully done by any standard, and really show off the music well. Sort of a 'Haydnisto must-have'. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
La Petite Bande; Sigiswald Kuijken - Hob 01_098 Symphony in Bb 3rd mvmt - Menuetto - Trio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 05, 2011, 03:16:02 PM

Quote from: Leo K on November 05, 2011, 11:52:00 AM
Oh yeah, I had forgotten to mention how much I've been enjoying the Davies Haydn box! The sound is particuarly good, well mastered and natural to the ear. The performances are PI influenced and I don't miss the fact these are modern instruments, as the performances are gritty, sensual and fun. Special mention to the horns! Great projections of sound!

I'm just starting to understand the Hob numbering and the naming/cataloging of the genres and that the numbering of works can now be vastly different (due to new discoveries of scholarship), but the old numbers remain for reference. This is helpful!

And YES, early Mozart is incredible!

I inferred it from your enthusiasm, nonetheless. :D

If you ever completely understand Hoboken, there is really little more you ever have to learn. You will be a black belt musicologist! :D :D And yes, despite that I use all the new numbering systems, I have never even considered jettisoning Hoboken. More than helpful, I would call it practically mandatory. Someone, somewhere, has (or is presently) cataloged nearly every composer. I hope they learned something both good and bad from Hoboken's method. It is possible that only Telemann has a larger oeuvre to sort out. :-\

8)

----------------
Now playing:
La Petite Bande; Sigiswald Kuijken - Hob 01_098 Symphony in Bb 4th mvmt - Finale: Presto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 05, 2011, 03:24:00 PM

Quote from: Elgarian on November 05, 2011, 01:17:30 PM
Yes, that's a good way of putting it for me too. When I started on the Goodman symphonies (I worked through roughly in chronological order) something like your sense of a familiar language was there from the start; except that it was a language that I didn't know I could get a grip on until I heard it, and then found all was surprisingly well. At home, you call it - yes, that's right. Actually I felt so at home, so comfy, that I listened to too many symphonies too fast; I need to go back and add some detail to the blurred memory.

That's perfectly OK. You have plenty of time to dwell on them too. I have listened to the entire cycle at least a dozen times, and I still hear something new every time. Actually, I like it that way. Apparently I have attention issues, despite my best efforts. So I always have something to look forward to next time 'round. :)

QuoteI've now listened to a couple of the opus 20 quartets that I felt I knew reasonably well from the Mosaiques set, and I must say they're a joy. Thanks very much for pointing me in that direction. They bopped and scrunched all around the room. But I don't in the least regret the Mosaiques purchase; they do adopt more of a 'recital' mode, as you called it, but I don't detect the least hint of sterility. I fancy they have a more ethereal approach, which convinces me with its own kind of healing validity, in between the party-on sessions that the Festetics seem to want to invite me to. I exaggerate of course, to stress my point, but you know by now that I'm prone to that, Gurn!

Further recommendations noted with thanks. I'll get there one day!

Ah, I was sure you would like those. They suit your personality as I perceive it. As for the Mosaiques, I think my reply to Dave sums up my feelings about them. You are quite right. Absolutely nothing wrong with them whatsoever. Merely a different approach. Sometimes it suits me better than others. One needn't always rollick. :) I will certainly continue this series to the end. I am very pleased that some of my discoveries are working for others too. It isn't always that way. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss - Hob 08_03 March in Eb 'For the Prince of Wales'

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on November 05, 2011, 05:21:12 PM

Quote from: Elgarian on November 05, 2011, 01:17:30 PM
Yes, that's a good way of putting it for me too. When I started on the Goodman symphonies (I worked through roughly in chronological order) something like your sense of a familiar language was there from the start; except that it was a language that I didn't know I could get a grip on until I heard it, and then found all was surprisingly well. At home, you call it - yes, that's right. Actually I felt so at home, so comfy, that I listened to too many symphonies too fast; I need to go back and add some detail to the blurred memory.

I've now listened to a couple of the opus 20 quartets that I felt I knew reasonably well from the Mosaiques set, and I must say they're a joy. Thanks very much for pointing me in that direction. They bopped and scrunched all around the room. But I don't in the least regret the Mosaiques purchase; they do adopt more of a 'recital' mode, as you called it, but I don't detect the least hint of sterility. I fancy they have a more ethereal approach, which convinces me with its own kind of healing validity, in between the party-on sessions that the Festetics seem to want to invite me to. I exaggerate of course, to stress my point, but you know by now that I'm prone to that, Gurn!

Further recommendations noted with thanks. I'll get there one day!

I too, absolutely LOVE the Mosaiques Haydn set. You describe the experience of their sound better than I! Excellant!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 05, 2011, 05:46:41 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 05, 2011, 07:57:00 AM
Part the 6th;

OK, I see you guys aren't going to do my research for me. I sure wanted to know more about that concertos-in-church thing. Guess I'll have to find a book... :)

Well, let's move forward to 1757. I'm not sure I understand the sudden appearance of so many works, beginning in this year. Did Haydn suddenly find his muse? Or conversely, is it a case of manuscripts being preserved where previously they weren't? My personal belief is that his expanding social circle, which now included the likes of the famous Countess Thun and the Fürnburg family (for whom he wrote his first divertimentos/string quartets) served the dual purpose of spurring on his composing as well as providing an environment in which his music could survive. I haven't seen a better explanation than that, although there possibly is one. :)

And speaking of those divertimentos, we here encounter something that will plague us for the next 2 decades, so I might as well explain my solution here now. The dates listed for these works, which were NOT composed as sets but merely assembled into Op 1 & 2 many years later when they were published, are narrowed down to the years 1757-61. In order to put a representation across that time line, I took the 10 authentic works and placed 2 in each of the 5 years. Who can possibly know the actual order of composition? Possibly it was 3 in '57, 3 in '59 and 4 in '61!?! So I just went with what gave the best representation. If that invalidates this entire list, then it's time to bail out right now. :D

1757
Hob 01_001 Symphony in D
The Hanover Band / Goodman
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Goodman01_05cover.jpg)

Hob 01_037 Symphony in C
Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HogwoodVol01cover.jpg)

Hob 02_20 Divertimento a nove Stromenti in F for Strings & Winds   (2 Oboes, 2 Horns, 2 Violins, 2 Violas & Basso)
Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HussHaydnEarlyDivertimenticover.jpg)

Hob 03_01 Divertimento in Bb for Strings Op 1 #1
Hob 03_02 Divertimento in Eb for Strings Op 1 #2
Hamburg Soloists / Emil Klein
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/StringdivertimentosKlein-2.jpg)

Hob 05_01 Divertimento á tre in Eb for 2 Violins & Bass
Hob 05_02 Divertimento á tre in F for 2 Violins & Bass
Hob 05_06 Divertimento á tre in Eb for 2 Violins & Bass
Hob 05_08 Divertimento á tre in Bb for Violin, Viola & Bass
Hob 05_11 Divertimento á tre in Eb for 2 Violins & Bass
Hob 05_13 Divertimento á tre in Bb for 2 Violins & Bass
Hob 05_15 Divertimento á tre in D for 2 Violins & Bass
Das Wiener Philharmonia Trio
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnStringTriosvol2cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnStringTriosvol1cover.jpg)

Hob 05_03 Divertimento á tre in b for 2 Violins & Bass
Hob 05_04 Divertimento á tre in Eb for 2 Violins & Bass
Hob 05_07 Divertimento á tre in A for 2 Violins & Bass
Hob 05_10 Divertimento á tre in F for 2 Violins & Bass
Hob 05_12 Divertimento á tre in E for 2 Violins & Bass
Camerata Berolinensis
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Str3o1.jpg)

Hob 15_01 Trio (Divertimento) in g for Keyboard & Strings
Hob 15_34 Trio (Divertimento) in E for Keyboard & Strings
Hob 15_35 Trio (Divertimento) in A for Keyboard & Strings
Hob 15_37 Trio (Divertimento) in F for Keyboard & Strings
Hob 15_38 Trio (Divertimento) in Bb for Keyboard & Strings
Hob 15_40 Trio (Divertimento) in F for Keyboard & Strings
Hob 15_41 Trio (Divertimento) in G for Keyboard & Strings
Hob 15_C1 Trio (Divertimento) in C for Keyboard & Strings
Trio 1790
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/1790v8-2.jpg)

Hob 16_G1 Sonata (Divertimento) #4 in G for Keyboard
Yuko Wataya
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/413RpUvh4eL-1.jpg)

The first symphonies are here, the first symphonies are here!!! If you haven't listened to them, then on your first listen please tell me if I'm the only one who felt that they were recognizably Haydn. This seems to have been an arena in which his unique voice could be heard right from the start. In these earliest ones, the only readily available PI choices are Goodman & Hogwood. I chose one of each because I like them both and wanted good representation. You could go with either one if you are still shopping and not feel at all slighted whichever you ended up with. Except, of course, Goodman's use of a (barely audible to me) harpsichord continuo while Hogwood disparaged the concept.

All of the disks mentioned are PI with the exception of the Klein quartets and the Vienna Philharmonia String Trio. If there is a PI version of these works, I haven't seen it yet. I do have 2 of them on a different disk, but neither of these is included. We can discuss some differences when we get there though. There are some. :)

Please inundate me with feedback, comment, complaint, question etc. It makes me think and I appreciate that. :)

8)

I bump this here because there are some other points I wanted to make and it is rapidly slipping away from us. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on November 05, 2011, 11:55:11 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 05, 2011, 03:08:13 PM

[asin]B000CAKZJO[/asin][asin]B000M2DJTA[/asin]

I link these 2 in Amazon. If you can't find the Camerata disks (and you won't, not all of them anyway) then these are your only other choice. It isn't like you are settling for something though, they are excellent, both music and playing. :)

Those two Berolinensis disc are jaw droppingly gorgeous IMO! :) It's a BIG downer that they didn't continue their series :'( - would be a nice project for Brilliant as a follow up tot the baryton trios set!

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on November 06, 2011, 12:08:58 AM

Quote from: ~ Que ~ on November 05, 2011, 11:55:11 PM
Those two Berolinensis disc are jaw droppingly gorgeous IMO! :) It's a BIG downer that they didn't continue their series :'( - would be a nice project for Brilliant as a follow up tot the baryton trios set!

Q

Why is Haydn cursed with so many incomplete sets?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2011, 06:49:12 AM

Quote from: ~ Que ~ on November 05, 2011, 11:55:11 PM
Those two Berolinensis disc are jaw droppingly gorgeous IMO! :) It's a BIG downer that they didn't continue their series :'( - would be a nice project for Brilliant as a follow up tot the baryton trios set!

Q

Yes, they are awfully damned good, I guess I am rather irked that they got to volume 2 and then stopped. Even reviews and sales were good, it is nonsensical to me. :-\ I always hoped Brilliant would buy up the project and finish it for a projected Big Box II; the Sequel. There are certainly enough works missing from Big Box I to make that happen. :'(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2011, 06:56:41 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on November 06, 2011, 12:08:58 AM
Why is Haydn cursed with so many incomplete sets?

My guess is that he is right on the border of popularity where everyone admits he is Top 5 material, but not so many want to pay Top 5 prices. The Hogwood symphonies, for example, were really expensive. A 3 disk set going for $58 (which they did when new) is not going to have the sales of a Naxos or Brilliant box. Bach, Beethoven and sometimes Mozart are the only composers that can sustain those prices over time. I think a good example is the Hyperion/Goodman. If I'm not mistaken, the budget Helios releases have far outsold the original Hyperion disks. At less than half price, why not? But anyway, you are nearly always talking about a large number of disks, whether it is a complete set of symphonies, or string quartets, or piano trios or whatever genre he dabbled in. I can just imagine how far the Brilliant Baryton set would have gotten if it had been released one disk at a time at even mid-price... :-\

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Minnesota Orchestra; Vanska - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 3rd mvmt - Adagio molto e cantabile

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on November 06, 2011, 07:48:19 AM

I don't know how the frequency at which the recordings took place compares to that at which the discs were released, but these series seem to have stopped right about the time they were near completion; not a third- or even at the half-way point. :-\ Had they waited a little longer, they likely would have made money out of 'reasonably priced' boxes of complete works (in a genre).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2011, 07:57:11 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on November 06, 2011, 07:48:19 AM
I don't know how the frequency at which the recordings took place compares to that at which the discs were released, but these series seem to have stopped right about the time they were near completion; not a third- or even at the half-way point. :-\ Had they waited a little longer, they likely would have made money out of 'reasonably priced' boxes of complete works (in a genre).

Certainly. I think they made some horrible business decisions, in the sense that Decca, for example, recorded all the way up to #77, and then, right at the point where the most popular and best selling symphonies were due to be recorded, they stopped. The sales on a set with the Paris Symphonies alone would have recouped any losses that were owing to the lesser known volumes. And then, as you say, the complete set sales later on, and the prestige that accrued to them in having the only complete PI set of Haydn symphonies would have been far greater than any temporary inconvenience they were suffering. I can't say how low I hold them in my esteem for that extremely poor business decision. I try not to speak that way in public. >:(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2011, 08:29:15 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 05, 2011, 05:46:41 PM
I bump this here because there are some other points I wanted to make and it is rapidly slipping away from us. :)

8)

I see at this point that Haydn is dipping his toes into a few new genres;

Symphonies
String Quartets
String Trios
Keyboard Trios

The only holdover styles right now are the divertimento for strings and winds, and the keyboard solo sonata. I would very much like to know why this might be. The underlying difficulty of that, of course, is that we are standing on shifting ground with chronology issues. If we postulate that by 1756 he has learned much (an easy supposition to make no matter) and also that he is hanging out with a different crowd (also easily verifiable), are these two things on their own enough to be able to say that suddenly he started writing in 4 new genres, and 3 of them turned out to be those which he carried on to the end of his life and made his fame and fortune with? Or can we actually suppose that he wrote some of these even earlier (I would suggest the first keyboard trios for this honor, and possibly some of the string trios)? His manuscripts, when they exist at all, are notoriously difficult to date because he didn't usually write a date on them. But if all is as written right now, then 1757 was a watershed year for Haydn. In a very short time he would find his first regular employment, and musicians would actually be asking for copies of his works. The rough years of being a Vienna student/apprentice were nearly over. Time for the master craftsman to emerge! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 06, 2011, 08:40:08 AM

Quote from: ~ Que ~ on November 05, 2011, 11:55:11 PM
Those two Berolinensis disc are jaw droppingly gorgeous IMO! :) It's a BIG downer that they didn't continue their series :'( - would be a nice project for Brilliant as a follow up tot the baryton trios set!

Gurn & Q - those two discs have peaked my interested but are going for $16 each on Amazon (could get them both as MP3 downloads for $20) - now concerning the number, how many discs would be needed to complete a String Trio cycle by Haydn?

Another completely incoherent review of one of those discs on Amazon (3* rating only) - Check HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Divertimenti-String-Trio-Vol/dp/B000CAKZJO/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1320600734&sr=1-2); now just may be me misunderstanding the reviewer but do the comments make any sense? Thanks for any input - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2011, 08:50:08 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on November 06, 2011, 08:40:08 AM
Gurn & Q - those two discs have peaked my interested but are going for $16 each on Amazon (could get them both as MP3 downloads for $20) - now concerning the number, how many discs would be needed to complete a String Trio cycle by Haydn?

Another completely incoherent review of one of those discs on Amazon (3* rating only) - Check HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Divertimenti-String-Trio-Vol/dp/B000CAKZJO/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1320600734&sr=1-2); now just may be me misunderstanding the reviewer but do the comments make any sense? Thanks for any input - Dave :)

You mean this one, of course:

QuoteWhile the project of recodings all the authentic Divertimenti for String Trio by Joseph Haydn is very commendable. The performance by "Das Wiener Philharmonia Trio" is marred by their misunderstanding of the variable "eighth note" appogiaturas in early Haydn before he came in contact to C.P.E. Bach's treatise on performing on keyboard instruments. Conseguently, particulary in the cadences of the Minuet and "Tempo di Menuetto" movements, we are shocked to hear a short appogiatura which should last two-thirds of the main note value. In other words, the "eighth-note" appogiatura preceeding a dotted half should be performed as a half note appogiatura, resovling to a quarter note. I tried to readjust my inner ear to the correct projecture, but find it very annoying to constanting hearing the overquick gliding over what should be the expressive appogiatura note, missing the impact of what was intended by Haydn

Well, to start with, he isn't even reviewing the disk in question. "Das Wiener Philharmonia Trio" is a modern instrument group that records on Camerata Records. Note my post above. Second, the issue that he is talking about, if it even exists there, is highly debatable as to its actual validity. The extent to which Haydn's study of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Versuch ("The True Art of Playing the Keyboard") affected his writing for strings is totally unknown. So if this guy's 'inner ear' is affected to the point of making him loony, I would propose that he is nearly there already. :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03_72 Quartet in C for Strings Op 74 #1 4th mvmt - Finale: Vivace

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 06, 2011, 08:56:28 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 06, 2011, 08:50:08 AM
Well, to start with, he isn't even reviewing the disk in question. "Das Wiener Philharmonia Trio" is a modern instrument group that records on Camerata Records. Note my post above. Second, the issue that he is talking about, if it even exists there, is highly debatable as to its actual validity. The extent to which Haydn's study of C.P.E. Bach's Keyboard Versuch ("The True Art of Playing the Keyboard") affected his writing for strings is totally unknown. So if this guy's 'inner ear' is affected to the point of making him loony, I would propose that he is nearly there already. :D

Thanks Gurn for the quick reply - that was my thought exactly, i.e. wrong disc! Dave

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2011, 08:59:07 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on November 06, 2011, 08:40:08 AM
Gurn & Q - those two discs have peaked my interested but are going for $16 each on Amazon (could get them both as MP3 downloads for $20) - now concerning the number, how many discs would be needed to complete a String Trio cycle by Haydn?

Oops, sorry, forgot this part. :)

I see them for $12 at Allegro Music. Look in the Marketplace section. Skip MovieMars, of course. Allegro is actually the importer and supplier of these. They are 100% reliable. I paid $11.99/disk when they were released, price has bumped a bit.

The Wiener Philharmonia Trio has 6 disks. However, they include all the "attributed to" ones too. The first 4 disks have all the Hob regular numbered ones. The last 2 have all the "G2 C11 D3" ones. Some of which are authentic, but there is little enough written about them to leave you wondering. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 06, 2011, 11:42:07 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on November 06, 2011, 12:08:58 AM
Why is Haydn cursed with so many incomplete sets?

See: Fall of man

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 07, 2011, 05:57:38 PM

Part 7

1758
Things were growing steadily better for Haydn throughout 1758. Count Morzin, his new employer, had his own orchestra of 16 musicians. Haydn's engagement as music director and composer paid the princely sum (for him) of 200 florins a year plus room and board. This was a huge step forward both financially and socially, and he made the most of it. There is a sad lack of documentary evidence of what life was like in the Morzin establishment. Clearly there was plenty of time for composition, since there are many surviving works that date from this period. But as for life itself, simply not much.

Here is the music of 1758;

Hob 01_002 Symphony in C
Hob 01_018 Symphony in G
The Hanover Band / Goodman
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Goodman01_05cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Goodman17_21cover.jpg)

Hob 02_03 Divertimento a cinque in G for Winds
Hob 02_07 Divertimento a sei in C for Winds
Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnEarlyDivertimenticover.jpg)

Hob 03_03 Divertimento in D for Strings Op 1 #3
Piccolo Concerto Wien
Hob 03_04 Divertimento in G for Strings Op 1 #4
Hamburg Soloists / Emil Klein
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnPiccoloConcertoWienDivertimentiaQuattro.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKleinStringdivertimentos.jpg)

Hob 16_07 Sonata #2 in D for Cembalo (Harpsichord)
Hob 16_10 Sonata #6 in C for Clavier (Clavichord)
Hob 16_D1 Sonata #07 in D for Cembalo
Yuko Wataya
Hob 16_08 Sonata #1 in G for Cembalo
Hob 16_09 Sonata #3 in F for Cembalo
Christine Schornsheim
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardWatayaEarlySonatascover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardSchornsheimHaydn.jpg)

Well, we may not have an abundance of biographical info from this period, be we have plenty of music!

Here is another case of the numbers attached to the symphonies being not quite right. Just as we saw "No. 37" last year, so we see "No. 18" this time. Although we have managed to get Nos. 1 & 2 done up in proper sequence! Hob 18 is a nice little work, it really sounds like its time, unlike many of Haydn's early works. The slowish intro actually has the feel of a minuet, sort of an oddity when you start playing it you almost want to check and make sure it started at the beginning. That persists throughout the opening movement, so it never really becomes sonata-allegro, challenging our expectations. An early 'Surprise' symphony! Anyway, I chose Goodman for these. Once again, it is Goodman and Hogwood, and the virtually-impossible-to-find Solomons. You won't be disappointed with Goodman.

Here is that exception to the non-HIP/PI early string quartet/divertimentos. Piccolo Concerto Wien is certainly a PI group. Among other things, they provide the accompaniment for the baryton group in the Brilliant box when we get to the Baryton Octets. So they know Haydn well. They use a violone for the Baßo part in these quartets. I personally think it sounds brilliant, and would really like to have more than these 2 (plus a third that is not by Haydn but still very nice). As nice as a cello sounds, this deeper, 16' bass just seems to provide more oomph, yet never loses its mellowness. I recommend this disk to anyone who is interested in hearing a different, perhaps more authentic take on these works.

This year we get five more early sonatas. As before, I am going with Wataya and Schornsheim. Also once again, we are pleased to hear one of these on the clavier, which Wataya is particularly gifted on. Both of these cembalos, Wataya's reproduction of a 1770 Taskin and Schornsheim's 1976 Dowd, are particularly nice sounding animals, so people with cembalophobia can edge up on them without fear. :)

Still interested in any feedback. Other recommendations, corrections, additions etc. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on November 07, 2011, 10:05:12 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 07, 2011, 05:57:38 PM
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnPiccoloConcertoWienDivertimentiaQuattro.jpg)

Here is that exception to the non-HIP/PI early string quartet/divertimentos. Piccolo Concerto Wien is certainly a PI group. Among other things, they provide the accompaniment for the baryton group in the Brilliant box when we get to the Baryton Octets. So they know Haydn well. They use a double bass for the Baßo part in these quartets. I personally think it sounds brilliant, and would really like to have more than these 2 (plus a third that is not by Haydn but still very nice). As nice as a cello sounds, this deeper, 16' bass just seems to provide more oomph. I recommend this disk to anyone who is interested in hearing their take on these works.

Ha, there it is!! I'm glad you like it. :)

I've enjoyed it very much as well. After the demise of Symphonia, the ensemble switched allegiances to Accent. The recording has now been reissued and hopefully there will be additional recordings. :)

[asin]B004RS7Z18[/asin]

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 08, 2011, 04:21:45 AM

Quote from: ~ Que ~ on November 07, 2011, 10:05:12 PM
Ha, there it is!! I'm glad you like it. :)

I've enjoyed it very much as well. After the demise of Symphonia, the ensemble switched allegiances to Accent. The recording has now been reissued and hopefully there will be additional recordings. :)

[asin]B004RS7Z18[/asin]

Q

Ah, and I see with the label switch that the lady has put on a tiny bit more clothes, although the loss of the elfin expression is to be mourned. :D

That is a good thing though, Que. I was unaware of the label news, and when I went looking for a recommendation on the Symphonia label I came up dry. Accent could be a useful partner. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 08, 2011, 08:26:40 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 07, 2011, 05:57:38 PM
Part 7 - 1758

Hob 03_03 Divertimento in D for Strings Op 1 #3
Piccolo Concerto Wien
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnPiccoloConcertoWienDivertimentiaQuattro.jpg)

Gurn - thanks for your Part 7 continuation; the disc above peaked my interest and I found it at BRO for $7 (description attached - the Symphonia one); also the same group doing some Boccherini Divertimenti which actually complement the Capriccio disc w/ one overlap only - so added that to my order along w/ a few others to justify the shipping! Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on November 08, 2011, 03:12:23 PM

Listening right now, because I'm writing about no.44.

One of my favorite non-HIP recordings is Fricsay (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/haydn-2009-fricsays-symphonies.html)... but Scherchen is special, too, in his old fashioned proto-radical ways.

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000U1NGA.MZZZZZZZ.jpg)
J. Haydn,
Symphony No.44 "Mourning"
hermann scherchen
Archiv / DG (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000U1NGA/goodmusicguide-20)

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_fvqDJniJWuw/TAa6Byo_vZI/AAAAAAAABGU/BVBdaLvtvig/s320/Amazon_DE_rect15_Txt.png) German Link (http://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B0000U1NGA/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1638&creative=19454&creativeASIN=B0000U1NGA)
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_fvqDJniJWuw/TAa6BffiUWI/AAAAAAAABGM/nXlVjGVAXsM/s320/Amazon_FR_rect15_Txt.png) French Link (http://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B0000U1NGA/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=weta909fr-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1642&creative=19458&creativeASIN=B0000U1NGA)
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_fvqDJniJWuw/TAa6BDmRZII/AAAAAAAABGE/OVmEmB4CZCg/s320/Amazon_UK_rect15_Txt.png) UK Link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0000U1NGA/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguideuk-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=B0000U1NGA)

Anyone ~~(among the German speakers)~~ discovered the UNBELIEVABLY awesome website "Haydn 100&7 (http://www.haydn107.com)", btw.?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 08, 2011, 04:27:35 PM

Quote from: jlaurson on November 08, 2011, 03:12:23 PM
Listening right now, because I'm writing about no.44.

One of my favorite non-HIP recordings is Fricsay (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/05/haydn-2009-fricsays-symphonies.html)... but Scherchen is special, too, in his old fashioned proto-radical ways.

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000U1NGA.MZZZZZZZ.jpg)
J. Haydn,
Symphony No.44 "Mourning"
hermann scherchen
Archiv / DG (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000U1NGA/goodmusicguide-20)

Anyone (among the German speakers) discovered the UNBELIEVABLY awesome website "Haydn 100&7 (http://www.haydn107.com)", btw.?

Scherchen was a pioneer in many ways. A man before his time, perhaps. The symphony itself is another of my favorites; Stürm und Dräng Haydn at his best. :)

For the info of the non-German speakers, that highly informative website is also in English. It is the place where I mined the latest chronology of the symphonies a couple of years ago. Check it out, lots of stuff there! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on November 08, 2011, 06:54:58 PM

Just discovered this -

[asin]B0032SK6SS[/asin]

Although the group seems to have a very good PI reputation, this is my first exposure to them. I am enjoying the playing very much.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 08, 2011, 07:41:27 PM

Quote from: Arnold on November 08, 2011, 06:54:58 PM
Just discovered this -

[asin]B0032SK6SS[/asin]

Although the group seems to have a very good PI reputation, this is my first exposure to them. I am enjoying the playing very much.

:)

Looks nice....$40 for one disc?

Now:

Haydn's Lira Concertos....licensed for the Big Brick Brilliant set by Vox. I am guessing they are the same ones Hugo Ruf played on in the 60's. Cannot say they are my cup of tea. The Lira sounds almost electronic:

(http://matthias.loibner.net/lira/lira.jpg)

Man, Papa got into some interesting instruments. He would of fit nicely into the Beatles toward the end of their run. Haydn....the true 5th Beatle!

Let me take you down, 'cause I'm goin' to, Esterházy fields....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on November 09, 2011, 12:33:22 AM

Quote from: Bogey on November 08, 2011, 07:41:27 PM
Looks nice....$40 for one disc?

I was surprised at that price too - but I did not purchase the disc, choosing a d/l instead.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 09, 2011, 04:13:56 AM

Quote from: Arnold on November 08, 2011, 06:54:58 PM
Just discovered this -

[asin]B0032SK6SS[/asin]

Although the group seems to have a very good PI reputation, this is my first exposure to them. I am enjoying the playing very much.

:)

Yeah, I looked that disk over last year and had a hankering for it, but the price was outrageous, and since I have many (good) versions of those works already I decided to give it a miss. I have no doubt at all that it is a lovely rendering though. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 09, 2011, 04:18:56 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 09, 2011, 04:13:56 AM
. . . and since I have many (good) versions of those works already . . . .

Show us one or two, Gurn?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 09, 2011, 04:19:41 AM

Quote from: Bogey on November 08, 2011, 07:41:27 PM
Looks nice....$40 for one disc?

Now:

Haydn's Lira Concertos....licensed for the Big Brick Brilliant set by Vox. I am guessing they are the same ones Hugo Ruf played on in the 60's. Cannot say they are my cup of tea. The Lira sounds almost electronic:

(http://matthias.loibner.net/lira/lira.jpg)

Man, Papa got into some interesting instruments. He would of fit nicely into the Beatles toward the end of their run. Haydn....the true 5th Beatle!

Let me take you down, 'cause I'm goin' to, Esterházy fields....

Yes, same ones, Bill. Lira was among the more bizarre instruments that Haydn wrote for, it's true. I like that he lavished the same care as he did on string quartets and symphonies. If you don't care for the sound of the lira, the same music was rearranged for London a few years later, with the lead instruments being changed to flute and oboe. In fact, most versions of these works are in that configuration, the lira versions being recorded more as a novelty for people like me than anything else. :)

I think George Martin was his bastard great-great-great-great grandson, actually, out of Becky Schröder... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 09, 2011, 04:22:17 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 09, 2011, 04:18:56 AM
Show us one or two, Gurn?

Here's one with Hob 18:6, the cembalo & violin concerto;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/d994793509a07fcc96123110.jpg)

I don't know that I have put up the album covers of others in Photobucket. I can rec some tonight though. Not $0/disk... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 09, 2011, 04:23:49 AM

Oh, here's another also;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/ConcertosSchornsheim.jpg)

Those are 2 sets worth buying, BTW. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 09, 2011, 04:25:43 AM

Quote from: Bogey on November 08, 2011, 07:41:27 PM
Looks nice....$40 for one disc?

Now:

Haydn's Lira Concertos....licensed for the Big Brick Brilliant set by Vox. I am guessing they are the same ones Hugo Ruf played on in the 60's. Cannot say they are my cup of tea. The Lira sounds almost electronic:

(http://matthias.loibner.net/lira/lira.jpg)

Man, Papa got into some interesting instruments. He would of fit nicely into the Beatles toward the end of their run. Haydn....the true 5th Beatle!

Let me take you down, 'cause I'm goin' to, Esterházy fields....

Actually, Bill, I see they have alternatives now (it took a while for them to show up!). Most ship out of Europe, but saving $30 is worth the wait! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 09, 2011, 04:28:35 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 09, 2011, 04:23:49 AM
. . . Those are 2 sets worth buying, BTW. :)

8)

Thanks!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 09, 2011, 04:32:36 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 09, 2011, 04:13:56 AM
Yeah, I looked that disk over last year and had a hankering for it, but the price was outrageous, and since I have many (good) versions of those works already I decided to give it a miss. I have no doubt at all that it is a lovely rendering though. :-\

8)

But with MP sellers, it's like $5 (or $8 with shipping). That's not too bad.

EDIT: Woops. Already up to $7.50, but $10 with shipping is still not $40! I think someone here has been busy buying...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 09, 2011, 04:38:35 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 09, 2011, 04:32:36 AM
But with MP sellers, it's like $5 (or $8 with shipping). That's not too bad.

EDIT: Woops. Already up to $7.50, but $10 with shipping is still not $40! I think someone here has been busy buying...

Yes, but that's now, not then. There was only 1 MP seller at that time, and he wanted $31, a scant saving over the $40 that Amazon asked... :) I went ahead and ordered it at that better price today. I imagine it won't arrive until December. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on November 09, 2011, 04:40:59 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 08, 2011, 04:27:35 PM
Scherchen was a pioneer in many ways. A man before his time, perhaps. The symphony itself is another of my favorites; Stürm und Dräng Haydn at his best. :)

His "Farewell" is quite OTT. :D Not unlike Minkowski's "Surprise" -- althoughScherchen is working off a debunked myth and Minkowski just messes with people. (I mean that in the best sense; I love Minkowski's set.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 09, 2011, 04:52:26 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on November 09, 2011, 04:40:59 AM
His "Farewell" is quite OTT. :D Not unlike Minkowski's "Surprise" -- although Scherchen is working off a debunked myth and Minkowski just messes with people. (I mean that in the best sense; I love Minkowski's set.)

I would like to hear it once. I have never spoiled Minkowski's "Surprise" for anyone, but I still enjoy the bizarreness of it. :) I would enjoy to see that group play, although I doubt they will show up at my local venue for a while... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on November 09, 2011, 05:19:15 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 09, 2011, 04:52:26 AM
I would like to hear it once. I have never spoiled Minkowski's "Surprise" for anyone, but I still enjoy the bizarreness of it. :) I would enjoy to see that group play, although I doubt they will show up at my local venue for a while... :D

Well, Minkowski is US American, actually, technically. But Texas? Maybe not that American. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 09, 2011, 05:37:31 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on November 09, 2011, 05:19:15 AM
Well, Minkowski is US American, actually, technically. But Texas? Maybe not that American. ;)

Not just Texas, rural Texas! :) When the Juilliard 4tet came here in 2000 ("Our schedule for this year is New York, London, Paris and ... Nacogdoches ???" (aside: "Where's our agent? >:( ") we probably saw all the big time acts for my lifetime. :) They did play, Haydn, Beethoven and Bartok though. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on November 09, 2011, 05:43:21 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 09, 2011, 05:37:31 AM
Not just Texas, rural Texas! :) When the Juilliard 4tet came here in 2000 ("Our schedule for this year is New York, London, Paris and ... Nacogdoches ???" (aside: "Where's our agent? >:( ") we probably saw all the big time acts for my lifetime. :) They did play, Haydn, Beethoven and Bartok though. 0:)

8)

That must have been a party!

(http://timstvshowcase.com/mccloud0.jpg)

EDIT: I know! I know! McCloud was from Taos, New Mexico. Passed through Baghdad, though, by the look of it. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on November 09, 2011, 05:49:26 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 09, 2011, 04:52:26 AM
I have never spoiled Minkowski's "Surprise" for anyone, but I still enjoy the bizarreness of it. :)
8)

That 'surprise' has been mentioned often enough in these (GMG) pages, or at least I've read about them so many times, that I will be waiting for my surprise if and when I hear that recording.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 09, 2011, 06:33:03 AM

From that debatable-attribution land of the Craft/Stravinsky books:

Of all the musicians of his age Haydn was the most aware, I think, that to be perfectly symmetrical is to be perfectly dead.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 09, 2011, 07:33:42 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 09, 2011, 06:33:03 AM
From that debatable-attribution land of the Craft/Stravinsky books:

Of all the musicians of his age Haydn was the most aware, I think, that to be perfectly symmetrical is to be perfectly dead.

It is certainly true de facto. Whether he would have verbalized it that way is open for debate. Whether he did it is not.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on November 09, 2011, 04:05:01 PM

I went to the Piano Trio thread and saw a lot of talk about the group Gaia Scienza and realized that I had nothing in my collection by them. So, I found this gem and am enjoying it as I type.

[asin]B0020LI68A[/asin]

I've several other things wish-listed, so this little guy won't be alone for long.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 09, 2011, 04:12:17 PM

Quote from: Arnold on November 09, 2011, 04:05:01 PM
I went to the Piano Trio thread and saw a lot of talk about the group Gaia Scienta and realized that I had nothing in my collection by them. So, I found this gem and am enjoying it as I type.

[asin]B0020LI68A[/asin]

I've several other things wish-listed, so this little guy won't be alone for long.

:)

Yup, that's a peach, Arnold. It is the one that I have settled on actually, for this list when we get to 1790. Wonderfully well-played and with Winter & Winter's always great recorded sound. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Trio 1790 - Hob 15_22 Trio in Eb 3rd mvmt - Finale: Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 09, 2011, 05:17:02 PM

Part 8

1759
This was a year spent in service to Count Morzin. It is quite unfortunate that we have almost nothing in the way of documents telling us about this period. All we know is that his music continued right ahead, with 4 new symphonies and 2 new quartets (at least as we talked about those quartets earlier). He also gave music lessons at home now, and accompanied on the cembalo the Countess, who was an accomplished singer.

Also at this time he married. It is unlikely that there was ever a less compatible pair than Maria Keller and Joseph Haydn, but there you have it. It is hard to imagine that a man who was such a fine judge of character could so far misjudge either hers or maybe his own! In any case, it was till death that they parted, but the time between 1759 or 60 and 1802 was a long, long one! :)

Here is the music from 1759;

Hob 01_004 Symphony in D
Hob 01_010 Symphony in D
Hob 01_020 Symphony in C
The Hanover Band / Goodman
Hob 01_027 Symphony in G
Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Goodman17_21cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Goodman09_12cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HogwoodVol01cover.jpg)

Hob 03_05/02_06 Divertimento in Eb for Strings Op 1 #5 "Op 0"
Hob 03_06 Divertimento in C for Strings Op 1 #6
Hamburg Soloists / Emil Klein
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/StringdivertimentosKlein-2.jpg)

Haydn continued to write symphonies for his little band at Morzin's place. This very small ensemble, probably a dozen or even fewer, served as a training ground for composition. As was very common at the time, especially in Bohemia where they were hanging out, most of the 'musicians' were in fact servants pressed into service. Nonetheless, the symphonies themselves were as good as any and better than most being written at the time. In keeping with our habit so far, I am sticking with Goodman and Hogwood for this year's crop. The performances are elegant and very much in keeping with the times.

Opus 0? Well, what can I say? Hoboken wasn't perfect, and he made some unusual decisions when he started the catalog. It was OK until later scholarship changed a few things. Opus 0 is a good example of something that we'll see again later.

Op 1 & 2 as originally published had some oddities. We talked earlier about Opus 2 #3 & 5 being the divertimentos Hob II:22 & 23 for strings & 2 horns, with the horn parts simply lopped off. ::) Well, Op 1 #5 (in its original incarnation in 1765) was never a string quartet at all, it was merely an arrangement of Symphony "A" (#107). So when these genuine Haydn works, that weren't really string quartets, were removed from Opp 1 & 2, that left just 9 works instead of the original 12. None of this was Hoboken's fault (nor was it Haydn's, all this was done without his knowledge or consent).

However, Hoboken had made a combination discovery and error. He found yet another string quartet in exactly the same style as the other 9 genuine ones (it is also genuine), but instead of putting it in Hob III, he did with it what should have been done with all of them, and put it in Hob II. That is why Hob II:6 shows to be empty now, because later workers put it in its proper place. Today it is nearly always published as "Op 1 #5". But it is called by most people "Op 0", since it never had a published Op #, and to differentiate it from the string quartet arrangement of Symphony A. Also continuing on with the Klein/Hamburg set here. And while I despair of ever having a set on period instruments, in the meantime I am very pleased with these.

So that's the first decade in the books. We have come a long way from the Missa Brevis, but there is such a long way to go yet!

Feedback still welcome!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 09, 2011, 05:35:26 PM

Divertimentos

The term was in common usage through the middle part of the 18th century to define instrumental music that was other than a concerto or sinfonia. There is a common misconception that it refers to light (and lightweight) music, but it was not used that way in its own time. It is not a synonym of the French term divertissement, since that word could also be used to name vocal and/or dance music, which was never the case with divertimento.

Haydn used it for all of the following genres;

Keyboard sonatas, string trios, baryton trios, keyboard trios, string quartets, keyboard quartets, baryton octets, mixed wind and string groups and wind band (Harmonie)music. The normal form you have seen: "Divertimento for Four (a Quattro)" for a string quartet for example, or "Divertimento a 8to Stromenti" (for 8 instruments). His keyboard sonatas were "Divertimento a cembalo solo".

The first work that he would have normally called a divertimento but didn't do so was in 1771, the Sonata in c minor Hob 16:20. Throughout the 1770's, his use of the term nearly totally faded away as far as anything in public, although autograph manuscripts still use it right up through the 1780's for himself and the publisher.

Curious what anyone else can add here. It seems like I know some other little tidbits, but they don't come to mind right now... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on November 10, 2011, 03:58:54 AM

Jumping ahead a bit to 1761-63, but this morning I happened to listen to Sym. #6 in D and the second movement was like a small concerto for violin - very wonderful music and somewhat odd in form, seems to me, for a symphony's middle movement. But I am noticing more and more how in the early symphonies, Haydn would feature individual instruments, such as the double bass in the Minuet movement from #7 in C. I think he was still experimenting with the form.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 10, 2011, 04:13:57 AM

Quote from: Arnold on November 10, 2011, 03:58:54 AM
Jumping ahead a bit to 1761-63, but this morning I happened to listen to Sym. #6 in D and the second movement was like a small concerto for violin - very wonderful music and somewhat odd in form, seems to me, for a symphony's middle movement. But I am noticing more and more how in the early symphonies, Haydn would feature individual instruments, such as the double bass in the Minuet movement from #7 in C. I think he was still experimenting with the form.

I have seen it proposed, and it seems credible to me, that his early influences included a heavy dose of Italian concerto grosso form, which relies heavily on concertante solos among the solisti group. Thus you find wonderful solo parts for the various virtuosi throughout the symphonies, even into the very late ones, where he provided a lovely solo violin part for Salomon in #98, for example. It sort of becomes his trademark. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on November 10, 2011, 04:26:25 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 10, 2011, 04:13:57 AM
I have seen it proposed, and it seems credible to me, that his early influences included a heavy dose of Italian concerto grosso form, which relies heavily on concertante solos among the solisti group. Thus you find wonderful solo parts for the various virtuosi throughout the symphonies, even into the very late ones, where he provided a lovely solo violin part for Salomon in #98, for example. It sort of becomes his trademark. :)

8)

Isn't there a neato cello bit too, in one of the Londons?

EDIT: It's in the trio of one of the minuets.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 10, 2011, 04:38:02 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on November 10, 2011, 04:26:25 AM
Isn't there a neato cello bit too, in one of the Londons?

EDIT: It's in the trio of one of the minuets.

There is, but I can't remember which now. #96? I think that's it. And let's not forget the horn solos that culminated in #31, there are several contemporaneous works that have them too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on November 10, 2011, 04:56:49 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 10, 2011, 04:38:02 AM
There is, but I can't remember which now. #96? I think that's it. And let's not forget the horn solos that culminated in #31, there are several contemporaneous works that have them too. :)

8)

Got it now. #95 in Cm, with the gorgeous contrapuntal finale.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on November 10, 2011, 04:58:38 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 10, 2011, 04:13:57 AM
I have seen it proposed, and it seems credible to me, that his early influences included a heavy dose of Italian concerto grosso form, which relies heavily on concertante solos among the solisti group. Thus you find wonderful solo parts for the various virtuosi throughout the symphonies, even into the very late ones, where he provided a lovely solo violin part for Salomon in #98, for example. It sort of becomes his trademark. :)

8)

I don't mean to be argumentative, but I just re-listened to #98 and did not hear any solo violin part. Maybe you are thinking of a different one or are considering a short section with a solo voice? #6 and also #7 have entire movements devoted to either a solo instrument, e.g. violin, featured, and in #7, bass, or a duet as in the flute/violin movement in #7 (there are probably more cases and this is something, now that I have taken note of it, I will look for in all the early ones and attempt to find where the practice began to fade away). While he may feature a solo instrument hear and there in the later numbers (as do all symphonists) my guess is that as he solidifies the idea of what is a symphony in his mind, an entire movement being given over to one instrument as solo voice being accompanied by the rest of the orchestra is not found much, if at all, other than in the early numbers.

Of course, I would love to be proven wrong.

:D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 10, 2011, 05:41:55 PM

Quote from: Arnold on November 10, 2011, 04:58:38 AM
I don't mean to be argumentative, but I just re-listened to #98 and did not hear any solo violin part. Maybe you are thinking of a different one or are considering a short section with a solo voice? #6 and also #7 have entire movements devoted to either a solo instrument, e.g. violin, featured, and in #7, bass, or a duet as in the flute/violin movement in #7 (there are probably more cases and this is something, now that I have taken note of it, I will look for in all the early ones and attempt to find where the practice began to fade away). While he may feature a solo instrument hear and there in the later numbers (as do all symphonists) my guess is that as he solidifies the idea of what is a symphony in his mind, an entire movement being given over to one instrument as solo voice being accompanied by the rest of the orchestra is not found much, if at all, other than in the early numbers.

Of course, I would love to be proven wrong.

:D

Well, I'm not one to prove anyone right or wrong, not my way. The answer is actually as much a judgment call by the listener as anything else. :)

If you go to the 4:00 mark of the finale, There is some bantering between the fist violin and first the oboe, then the flute. It sounds sort of like the trio of a minuet, being somewhat on the bare side, although there are bursts of "ritornello" going on from the orchestra. This is taking place during development of the 2nd theme, the way I hear it. Anyway, just after the 5 minutes mark (in the Minkowski and Kuijken versions), the violin has about 10-12 measures of playing alone, with an occasional bit of help from the cello (I think), and then the winds comes back in, and then the entire orchestra again. The whole episode last a bit under 1 minute. And then of course, it closes out with the keyboard having a little tinkle there, too. Anyway, I don't know, I don't hear that sort of exposed solo in a lot of other symphonies from that time, although later on it becomes more popular. True, it isn't a concerto like in a Mozart orchestral serenade, but still, I think it is a stylistic holdover from his much earlier period (Earliest Esterhazy). :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 10, 2011, 06:05:09 PM

Quote from: chasmaniac on November 10, 2011, 04:56:49 AM
Got it now. #95 in Cm, with the gorgeous contrapuntal finale.

Yeah, 95 is excellent. :) BTW, if you want to listen to those nice horn solo parts, #72 was composed within a couple of years of it (72 in 1763, 31 in 1765). Both of them feature some great horn playing. It must have been a nice bonus for Haydn at the time to have such great players to write for.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on November 10, 2011, 06:22:58 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 10, 2011, 06:05:09 PM
Yeah, 95 is excellent. :)

Quote from: chasmaniac on November 10, 2011, 04:56:49 AM
Got it now. #95 in Cm, with the gorgeous contrapuntal finale.

It's great to see others mention #95, that has grown into one of my favorites from the "London" symphonies. And yes, the finale is wonderful, I especially love how with about a minute left it briefly switches to minor, just how the symphony began.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 10, 2011, 06:51:58 PM

Just one of those evenings that I wanted to grab a few off the shelf that do not get much of my attention, but I enjoy:

(http://www.freecodesource.com/album-cover/51IgABjHMtL/-Franz-Joseph-Haydn-Organ-Concertos-1,-2,-3;-C.P.E.-Bach-Organ-Concerto-in-G-Wq-34-(Concertos-Pour-Orgue)-(Erato).jpg)

Always like finding an Erato in the used bins....kind of the Naxos before their time.

and

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ussVofVRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Two from this set.....really enjoy the Caspar da SaloQuartett....nothing flashy. A poor man's Tátrai Quartet, if you will. I will finish off listening to the third disc tomorrow....unless I throw a #95 in my bag for work. Hmmmm, Solti or Fischer?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on November 10, 2011, 08:11:10 PM

Found this on sale at MDT, and I'll blame Gurn since he was the one who first mentioned it.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41E3OEzRiHL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

(ordered with some other stuff including the new Hyperion Gothic)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on November 11, 2011, 03:59:35 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 10, 2011, 08:11:10 PM
...the new Hyperion Gothic...

Ooh, my Spideysense is tingling. What is this "new Hyperion Gothic" of which you speak?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 11, 2011, 04:13:12 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 10, 2011, 08:11:10 PM
Found this on sale at MDT, and I'll blame Gurn since he was the one who first mentioned it.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41E3OEzRiHL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

(ordered with some other stuff including the new Hyperion Gothic)

I'll take the hit on that, I have broad shoulders. :) Hope you like it as much as I do, Jeffrey. Some very nice stuff on there that you probably won't hear anywhere else. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on November 11, 2011, 07:57:49 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on November 11, 2011, 03:59:35 AM
Ooh, my Spideysense is tingling. What is this "new Hyperion Gothic" of which you speak?

Sorry, I thought that recording was common knowledge in GMG.

Havergal Brian, Symphony No. 1 ("Gothic")--a live recording of the Proms performance this summer, which Hyperion is releasing on 11/28 in the UK and on 12/13 in the US.

For proper effusiveness, consult the Havergal Brian thread.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on November 11, 2011, 08:03:04 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 11, 2011, 07:57:49 AM
Sorry, I thought that recording was common knowledge in GMG.

Havergal Brian, Symphony No. 1 ("Gothic")--a live recording of the Proms performance this summer, which Hyperion is releasing on 11/28 in the UK and on 12/13 in the US.

For proper effusiveness, consult the Havergal Brian thread.

Oh. I thought it might be Ciconia or Landini or...

Never mind. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on November 11, 2011, 10:41:45 AM

The Mosaiques recording of opus 77 counts opus 103 as the unfinished 77/#3. What's up with that? Is it? Note I haven't bothered to read the booklet yet. I've been busy with a banana.

[asin]B00004TQPL[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 11, 2011, 10:50:24 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on November 11, 2011, 10:41:45 AM
The Mosaiques recording of opus 77 counts opus 103 as the unfinished 77/#3. What's up with that? Is it? Note I haven't bothered to read the booklet yet. I've been busy with a banana.

[asin]B00004TQPL[/asin]

It was intended to be. He worked on it for 3 years, trying to follow up on the first 2 completed quartets, but finally gave up with 2 movements (the inner ones) complete and a few sketches for the rest. It probably wouldn't have been called "Op 77#3" after that amount of time, since that boat had already sailed. But if he had completed it in his usual 3-4 months, then it surely would have been. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on November 11, 2011, 12:12:18 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 11, 2011, 10:50:24 AM
It was intended to be. He worked on it for 3 years, trying to follow up on the first 2 completed quartets, but finally gave up with 2 movements (the inner ones) complete and a few sketches for the rest. It probably wouldn't have been called "Op 77#3" after that amount of time, since that boat had already sailed. But if he had completed it in his usual 3-4 months, then it surely would have been. :)

8)

That makes sense, thanks.

Now, how do I stop "Deutschland uber alles" from ringing my ears every time I slap the old Emperor 4 on the victrola?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 11, 2011, 12:33:19 PM

Quote from: chasmaniac on November 11, 2011, 12:12:18 PM
That makes sense, thanks.

Now, how do I stop "Deutschland uber alles" from ringing my ears every time I slap the old Emperor 4 on the victrola?

I was fortunate in that I hadn't ever heard that song before I heard the Haydn. I don't know the answer for you, other than I concentrate on the Op 76#3 2nd mvmt version instead. I can hear it even now. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: max on November 11, 2011, 01:16:33 PM

Quote from: chasmaniac on November 11, 2011, 12:12:18 PM
Now, how do I stop "Deutschland uber alles" from ringing my ears every time I slap the old Emperor 4 on the victrola?

...as a glorious song without words. In short, take it as written.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 12, 2011, 04:53:25 AM

Went down the #95 road after the discussion here with this one:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51SHCncnvTL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Full bodied....like a deep Napa cab wine. I noted the cello(?) solo in the 3rd, and enjoyed. Funny, the notes refer to Wolfie's Jupiter and I thought the same about the final movement prior to reading the notes. And if I made the connection, it just ain't that hard to make. Which of these pieces came first? The notes elude to the fact that the Jupiter had not been published yet, but Haydn could have examined the manuscript.

In short, for me the third and fourth work. The first and the second seem out of place and maybe in the future I will find charm in that.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 12, 2011, 05:04:42 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 11, 2011, 12:33:19 PM
I was fortunate in that I hadn't ever heard that song before I heard the Haydn.

Not greatly dissimilar, I had heard it only on occasion as that tune came up in the hymnal now and again through the coursre of the church year.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 12, 2011, 05:23:55 AM

Quote from: Bogey on November 12, 2011, 04:53:25 AM
Went down the #95 road after the discussion here with this one:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51SHCncnvTL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Full bodied....like a deep Napa cab wine. I noted the cello(?) solo in the 3rd, and enjoyed. Funny, the notes refer to Wolfie's Jupiter and I thought the same about the final movement prior to reading the notes. And if I made the connection, it just ain't that hard to make. Which of these pieces came first? The notes elude to the fact that the Jupiter had not been published yet, but Haydn could have examined the manuscript.

In short, for me the third and fourth work. The first and the second seem out of place and maybe in the future I will find charm in that.

Oh, no doubt that the Mozart came first, it was from summer 1788. Haydn used to visit him all the time in Vienna, and Mozart would play things for him on the piano (like arias from Così fan tutte that he used to sing and accompany himself) and that nearly certainly included the 3 symphonies. So you can take it as given that he knew them (like Mozart, he rarely ever forgot a theme once he heard it). The #95 dates from 1791, by comparison. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 12, 2011, 05:28:43 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 12, 2011, 05:23:55 AM
Oh, no doubt that the Mozart came first, it was from summer 1788. Haydn used to visit him all the time in Vienna, and Mozart would play things for him on the piano (like arias from Così fan tutte that he used to sing and accompany himself) and that nearly certainly included the 3 symphonies. So you can take it as given that he knew them (like Mozart, he rarely ever forgot a theme once he heard it). The #95 dates from 1791, by comparison. :)

8)

Without digging into dates on my own, could Mozart have seen the music for (or heard) the symphony.....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on November 12, 2011, 05:37:01 AM

Quote from: max on November 11, 2011, 01:16:33 PM
...as a glorious song without words. In short, take it as written.

I do try, but - damn, here it comes - God save Frank the Caesar! Grrr.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 12, 2011, 05:44:06 AM

Quote from: Bogey on November 12, 2011, 05:28:43 AM
Without digging into dates on my own, could Mozart have seen the music for (or heard) the symphony.....

No, it was written in London in summer 1791 when he had already been in London for several months. Mozart was working on La Clemenza di Tito for Prague at that time, and then Die Zauberflöte and The Requiem. Then he famously died, of course.... there is no doubt that Haydn took the ideas from Mozart. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 12, 2011, 05:55:24 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 12, 2011, 05:44:06 AM
No, it was written in London in summer 1791 when he had already been in London for several months. Mozart was working on La Clemenza di Tito for Prague at that time, and then Die Zauberflöte and The Requiem. Then he famously died, of course.... there is no doubt that Haydn took the ideas from Mozart. :)

8)

Well, you are not being very helpful with me trying to create a conspiracy theory here by stating facts. :D

Something like:
Haydn sees the original manuscript to Jupitar and wants to borrow the only copy.
Wolfie tells him to take a hike, that he is all washed up, and was using him all along to further his musical career.
Haydn, being a member of the Salieri mafia plots to murder Wolfie with a pay off of a hitman, have him retrieve the script, and .....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 12, 2011, 06:15:20 AM

Quote from: Bogey on November 12, 2011, 05:55:24 AM
Well, you are not being very helpful with me trying to create a conspiracy theory here by stating facts. :D

Something like:
Haydn sees the original manuscript to Jupitar and wants to borrow the only copy.
Wolfie tells him to take a hike, that he is all washed up, and was using him all along to further his musical career.
Haydn, being a member of the Salieri mafia plots to murder Wolfie with a pay off of a hitman, have him retrieve the script, and .....

Ooh, I like it! You should get Mn Dave to collaborate; he can dream up almost anything. :D

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/414dxftSrjL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg)

Be careful though, 'cause my friend Dan Leeson will hire a hitman to murder you for stealing his plot... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on November 12, 2011, 06:24:20 AM

Here's a new book for you conspiracy nuts!

[asin]0062015869[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 12, 2011, 06:30:59 AM

Pretty much all you need to know: :D

....Mozart's Last Aria is a magnificent historical mystery that pulls back the curtain on a world of soaring music, burning passion, and powerful secrets.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on November 12, 2011, 06:35:21 AM

Quote from: Bogey on November 12, 2011, 06:30:59 AM
Pretty much all you need to know: :D

....Mozart's Last Aria is a magnificent historical mystery that pulls back the curtain on a world of soaring music, burning passion, and powerful secrets.

I thought the sub-title (which, curiously, is placed on top) sufficed. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 12, 2011, 06:36:40 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on November 12, 2011, 06:35:21 AM
I thought the sub-title (which, curiously, is placed on top) sufficed. :D

Oh yes, much better! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 12, 2011, 07:52:46 AM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61wZYXdnewL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Wife and I enjoying this one....a lot. From the notes:

....the very model for classical string quartet was clearly made by Haydn's famous set Opus 33,....
Other quartets written before this were not at all composed with a concept of a unified musical style in mind.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on November 12, 2011, 03:35:06 PM

I remember when I first here this recording,

[asin]B00002587G[/asin]

I am pretty sure I borrowed it from the library, I was not impressed and did not like the sound of the forte-piano. Unfortunately, I did not go back to it until now even after years have passed and my appreciation of period instruments has grown to the point of that I vastly prefer those recordings to the other kind. Now, listening to it, this recording, while not my favorite in these works, impresses me a great deal.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 12, 2011, 04:03:59 PM

Quote from: Arnold on November 12, 2011, 03:35:06 PM
I remember when I first here this recording,

[asin]B00002587G[/asin]

I am pretty sure I borrowed it from the library, I was not impressed and did not like the sound of the forte-piano. Unfortunately, I did not go back to it until now even after years have passed and my appreciation of period instruments has grown to the point of that I vastly prefer those recordings to the other kind. Now, listening to it, this recording, while not my favorite in these works, impresses me a great deal.

:)

I've tended to avoid Collegium Aureum, only because people have said some neutral/negative things about them, but I really like Demus and Linde, so I went ahead and picked this one up. Thanks for the recommendation, Arnold. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/BeghinLieder.jpg)Andrea Folan; Tom Beghin - Hob 26a_09 Lied for Soprano and Fortepiano "Trost unglücklicher Liebe"

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 12, 2011, 04:59:36 PM

Part 9

1760
Time to plow onwards, I reckon. :)

1760 finds Haydn still working for Morzin, and trying to get a grip on where his newfound married state has left him. Probably at a bout the same time for each, he discovered that his marriage was a tragic error and his spendthrift boss, Morzin, had spent himself out of house and home, leaving his Kapellmeister without home or income. Despite this bit of adversity, from which he would eventually more than land on his feet, 1760 was the most prolific year for music so far. Morzin was very musical and wanted to be surrounded with it all the time, and Haydn had the talent, constantly being honed, to provide him with good variety.

The music of 1760:

Hob 01_005 Symphony in A
Hob 01_011 Symphony in Eb
Hob 01_017 Symphony in F
Hob 01_019 Symphony in D
Hob 01_025 Symphony in C
   The Hanover Band / Goodman
Hob 01_032 Symphony in C
Hob 01_107 Symphony "A" in Bb
Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Goodman01_05cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Goodman17_21cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HogwoodVol01cover.jpg)

Hob 02_15 Divertimento a sei in F for 2 Oboes, 2 Bassoons & 2 Horns
Hob 02_16 Divertimento a octo in F for 2 Violins, 2 Cors Anglaise, 2 Bassoons & 2 Horns
Hob 02_21 Divertimento a sei Stromenti in Eb for Strings & 2 Horns
Hob 02_22 Divertimento a sei Stromenti in D for Strings & 2 Horns
Hob 02_23 Feldparthie in F for 2 Oboes, 2 Bassoons & 2 Horns
   Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HussHaydnEarlyDivertimenticover.jpg)

Hob 03_07 Divertimento in A for Strings Op 2 #1
Piccolo Concerto Wien
Hob 03_08 Divertimento in E for Strings Op 2 #2
Hamburg Soloists / Emil Klein
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnPiccoloConcertoWienDivertimentiaQuattro.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/StringdivertimentosKlein-2.jpg)

Hob 05_D1 Divertimento á tre in D for 2 Violins & Bass
Hob 05_D3 Divertimento á tre in D for 2 Violins & Bass
Hob 05_G1 Divertimento á tre in G for 2 Violins & Bass
   Das Wiener Philharmonia Trio
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnStringTriosvol4cover.jpg)

Hob 14_03 Concertino in C for Keyboard, 2 Violins & Baßo
Hob 14_07 Divertimento in C for Keyboard, 2 Violins & Baßo
Hob 14_09 Divertimento in F for Keyboard, 2 Violins & Baßo
Hob 14_11 Concertino in C for Keyboard, 2 Violins & Baßo
   L'Arte dell'Arco / Loreggian
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHob14cover.jpg)

Hob 15_36 Trio in Eb for Keyboard & Strings
Hob 15_f1 Trio in f for Keyboard & Strings
   Trio 1790
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/1790v7.jpg)

Hob 16_02 Sonata #11 in Bb for Keyboard
   Ulrika Davidsson
Hob 16_06 Sonata #13 in G for Keyboard
   Christine Schornsheim
Hob 16_11 Sonata #5 in G for Keyboard
   Yuko Wataya
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardDavidssoncover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardSchornsheimHaydn.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardWatayaEarlySonatascover.jpg)

As you see, quite a new variety among the divertimentos, with 2 for string quartet and 2 horns (these are the ones that originally shed their horn parts and joined Op 2). Also one that has 2 English Horns instead of 2 Oboes. It is a treat too, the unusual, rich sound of the Cor Anglaise is always a pleasure.

Note also that there is a new genre here. That is represented by Hob 14. It is, for all intents and purposes, a keyboard quartet. As he often did, Haydn called it a divertimento, or in a few cases a 'concertino'. That is a difficult one to divine, since there isn't much in structure or anything else to make it a "little concerto", but this disk by L'Arte dell'Arco / Loreggian is a welcome addition to the PI fold. Very nicely played.

8)

----------------
Now playing:
L'Arte dell'Arco \ Loreggian (Cembalo) - Hob 14_07 Divertimento in C for Cembalo, 2 Violins & Baß 2nd mvmt - Menuet - Trio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jared on November 13, 2011, 03:46:01 AM

^^ thank you very much for that wonderfully informative post... 8)

Just popped in to say how delighted I am with this purchase...

(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn99/fandango68/Early%20Classical/51qwNY9N8WL__SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I'm on my first run through and its delightful... surely one of Hickox's crowning achievements.. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 13, 2011, 08:17:40 AM

Quote from: Jared on November 13, 2011, 03:46:01 AM
^^ thank you very much for that wonderfully informative post... 8)

Just popped in to say how delighted I am with this purchase...

(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn99/fandango68/Early%20Classical/51qwNY9N8WL__SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I'm on my first run through and its delightful... surely one of Hickox's crowning achievements.. :D

You're welcome. Hope you will continue to join us for future episodes. :)

I am also quite in your corner on that box. It isn't to everyone's taste, apparently, but I am delighted with it in most cases, and wouldn't want to be without it. It is indeed one of his crowning achievements, I wish he had also managed to finish his London Symphony cycle before he passed. I enjoy the 2 disks that he managed to get done.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 13, 2011, 08:26:07 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 13, 2011, 08:17:40 AM
I am also quite in your corner on that box. It isn't to everyone's taste, apparently, but I am delighted with it in most cases, and wouldn't want to be without it.

"Surely not I, Master?" 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 13, 2011, 08:30:19 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 13, 2011, 08:26:07 AM
"Surely not I, Master?" 8)

Well, you are in line, of course... :D But I actually got that box at no charge to myself because the original purchaser didn't like it and offered it to me. I was (and still am) delighted to get it, but feelings are mixed by some few misguided souls... :D :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra / Ferenc Fricsay - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 3rd mvmt - Adagio molto e cantabile

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 13, 2011, 08:38:19 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 13, 2011, 08:30:19 AM
Well, you are in line, of course... :D But I actually got that box at no charge to myself because the original purchaser didn't like it and offered it to me. I was (and still am) delighted to get it, but feelings are mixed by some few misguided souls... :D :D

I have also enjoyed Hickox for several years, Gurn. And still I do. But, fortunately, today we have some extra HIP alternatives. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jared on November 13, 2011, 08:38:45 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 13, 2011, 08:30:19 AM
Well, you are in line, of course... :D But I actually got that box at no charge to myself because the original purchaser didn't like it and offered it to me. I was (and still am) delighted to get it, but feelings are mixed by some few misguided souls... :D :D

I would be intrigued to hear what the detractors have to say...

I also have his three Hummel Mass disks and his LvB Mass in C, all of which I enjoy a great deal... very strong, quality line-up of soloists and fabulous recording quality.. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jared on November 13, 2011, 08:41:20 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 13, 2011, 08:38:19 AM
I have also enjoyed Hickox for several years, Gurn. And still I do. But, fortunately, today we have some extra HIP alternatives. :)

Yes, I agree, there never has been a better time to be listening to HIP versions of these masterworks, although Pinnock, Gardiner & Hickox at present take up the largest presence in my very small collection for this period.. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 13, 2011, 08:42:36 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 13, 2011, 08:38:19 AM
I have also enjoyed Hickox for several years, Gurn. And still I do. But, fortunately, today we have some extra HIP alternatives. :)

I knew that, just is just such fun to call you a misguided soul... I will be ordering the Rebel box Tuesday, coincidentally the same day that the Beghin sonatas box comes available. That duo should have the the postman dragging. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jared on November 13, 2011, 08:43:35 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 13, 2011, 08:17:40 AM
You're welcome. Hope you will continue to join us for future episodes. :)

Gladly, although I'm not sure just how seriously I should take the comments of a self-professed Bach detractor... ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 13, 2011, 08:46:54 AM

Quote from: Jared on November 13, 2011, 08:43:35 AM
Gladly, although I'm not sure just how seriously I should take the comments of a self-professed Bach detractor... ;D

That merely enhances my credibility. ;) It insures that I'm wide-awake for Haydn, not having to shake off Bach first... :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra; Ferenc Fricsay - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 4th mvmt pt 2 - Presto - 'O Freunde, nicht diese Töne' - Allegro assai

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on November 13, 2011, 08:53:44 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 13, 2011, 08:42:36 AM
I knew that, just is just such fun to call you a misguided soul... I will be ordering the Rebel box Tuesday, coincidentally the same day that the Beghin sonatas box comes available. That duo should have the the postman dragging. :)

8)

The Rebel box has a curious history of getting recorded. The long time director of the Trinity choir was let go before the series of masses was completed (I think they lacked 2 or 3 to do) under somewhat unsavory circumstances. There was some concern about unity of interpretation by some reviewers before the box actually came out, but judging from all the positive comments, despite having a different conductor for the last few works it has not impacted negatively on the set.

If you care about the how and why Owen Burdick was fired, the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/16/arts/music/16owen.html?pagewanted=all) ran his explanation in 2009.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 13, 2011, 09:04:07 AM

Quote from: Arnold on November 13, 2011, 08:53:44 AM
The Rebel box has a curious history of getting recorded. The long time director of the Trinity choir was let go before the series of masses was completed (I think they lacked 2 or 3 to do) under somewhat unsavory circumstances. There was some concern about unity of interpretation by some reviewers before the box actually came out, but judging from all the positive comments, despite having a different conductor for the last few works it has not impacted negatively on the set.

If you care about the how and why Owen Burdick was fired, the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/16/arts/music/16owen.html?pagewanted=all) ran his explanation in 2009.

Thanks for that interesting article, Arnold. Well, at least they replaced him in the last 3 masses with a fine Haydn conductor in Jane Glover. I have some of her Haydn Symphonies with the London Mozart Players and they are very good. True, one would like to see continuity of thought and concept from beginning to end, but it doesn't see to have had any adverse effect here. If Antoine says it, I know it's so. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jared on November 13, 2011, 09:04:51 AM

^^ Ok, I have two questions for you to get your teeth into.

1) I own the Trevor Pinnock version of Haydn 'Stabat Mater' but would like another one to contrast it with. Which would you go for, bearing in mind I'm not much of a Harnoncourt fan?

2) A friend is sending me the Harnoncourt choral version of 'Seven Last Words' as a freebie to try and convert me, but I'd like to compare it against another version when it arrives... which would you recommend.

I have a version of each residing in my Amazon basket, let's see if you pick the same ones, or persuade me otherwise.. ;)

Meanwhile, thread duty:

(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn99/fandango68/Early%20Classical/34fb124128a009f2c1917010_L__AA300_.jpg)

disk 1... 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 13, 2011, 09:28:48 AM

Quote from: Jared on November 13, 2011, 09:04:51 AM
^^ Ok, I have two questions for you to get your teeth into.

1) I own the Trevor Pinnock version of Haydn 'Stabat Mater' but would like another one to contrast it with. Which would you go for, bearing in mind I'm not much of a Harnoncourt fan?

2) A friend is sending me the Harnoncourt choral version of 'Seven Last Words' as a freebie to try and convert me, but I'd like to compare it against another version when it arrives... which would you recommend.

I have a version of each residing in my Amazon basket, let's see if you pick the same ones, or persuade me otherwise.. ;)

Meanwhile, thread duty:

(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn99/fandango68/Early%20Classical/34fb124128a009f2c1917010_L__AA300_.jpg)

disk 1... 8)

Well, not as easy as it might seem, since those 2 versions are the ones that I use in my main 'set'. The only other 'Stabat Mater' I have is the one in the Big Box, and I haven't even listened to it yet. However, I can help you with the Seven Last Words. There is an excellent disk on Naive here:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/face640x480.jpg)

I like the Harnoncourt a lot, and was essentially too lazy so far to make a change, but this one is very nice, and the first contender that I've run across in the PI arena.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jared on November 13, 2011, 09:54:31 AM

Well Gurn,

Stabat Mater: I have the Laszlo Heltay recording on Decca in the basket... seems to come out near the top of comparative reviews, having some strong soloists...

Seven Last Words: Yep, you've got the one in the basket, right there... read some good things about that one, and your recommendation seals it.. :D

Many thanks

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 13, 2011, 10:00:16 AM

Quote from: Jared on November 13, 2011, 09:54:31 AM
Well Gurn,

Stabat Mater: I have the Laszlo Heltay recording on Decca in the basket... seems to come out near the top of comparative reviews, having some strong soloists...

Seven Last Words: Yep, you've got the one in the basket, right there... read some good things about that one, and your recommendation seals it.. :D

Many thanks

Ah, well even a blind hog finds an acorn sometimes. :) Can I assume that Heltay is a modern instrument/classic version? I freely admit that I simply don't know any of those. The field from which to choose does indeed get larger when you let them into it though. And no harm done (unless, like me, you pride yourself on having an all-PI collection). :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jared on November 13, 2011, 10:11:35 AM

^^ actually I don't believe it is in the truest sense, as its fairly traditional (which is OK by me, being as I have the Pinnock to contrast it with) however it has been done with Chamber forces and boasts Auger and Rolfe Johnson as soloists...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Haydn-Stabat-Mater-J/dp/B0007WW2FC/ref=wl_it_dp_o_npd?ie=UTF8&coliid=I3W401GUYM6MLO&colid=31GWJ6HHKNUV3

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 13, 2011, 10:19:31 AM

Quote from: Jared on November 13, 2011, 10:11:35 AM
^^ actually I don't believe it is in the truest sense, as its fairly traditional (which is OK by me, being as I have the Pinnock to contrast it with) however it has been done with Chamber forces and boasts Auger and Rolfe Johnson as soloists...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Haydn-Stabat-Mater-J/dp/B0007WW2FC/ref=wl_it_dp_o_npd?ie=UTF8&coliid=I3W401GUYM6MLO&colid=31GWJ6HHKNUV3

:)

Ah, you're right, great soloists. I'd take a chance on it for my backup too. Just to hear the lovely Arleen warble again. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 13, 2011, 02:54:32 PM

Quote from: Jared on November 13, 2011, 09:04:51 AM

(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn99/fandango68/Early%20Classical/34fb124128a009f2c1917010_L__AA300_.jpg)

Have this on cd....love it enough that I may piece together a vinyl set.

And, coming back to this 33. My fave is the 77, but this is giving it a serious run.

Quote from: Bogey on November 12, 2011, 07:52:46 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61wZYXdnewL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Wife and I enjoying this one....a lot. From the notes:

....the very model for classical string quartet was clearly made by Haydn's famous set Opus 33,....
Other quartets written before this were not at all composed with a concept of a unified musical style in mind.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 13, 2011, 03:32:45 PM

Quote from: Bogey on November 13, 2011, 02:54:32 PM
Have this on cd....love it enough that I may piece together a vinyl set.

And, coming back to this 33. My fave is the 77, but this is giving it a serious run.

Op 33 was his first set that was intended for public consumption. during the contract talks of 1780/81, Haydn was granted the opportunity to publish his own works. It is my belief that the difference in the quartets is not only due to his improvement as a composer in the 10 years since Op 20, but also because his intended audience was entirely different; i.e. - it was now the world at large. And he responded to it with a set that not only combined popular and learned styles, but had some certain crowd-pleasing elements that really made them stand out. He reverted a bit in Op 50, his next set, but Op 33 turned off to be probably the most popular set during his lifetime. I like it a lot too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 13, 2011, 03:44:50 PM

Well, I did it:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51F42QoSwdL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

:-[ :-X :-\ :'( 8) :o

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 13, 2011, 03:50:30 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 13, 2011, 03:44:50 PM
Well, I did it:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51F42QoSwdL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

:-[ :-X :-\ :'( 8) :o

Cor! That was... big! I am sitting here trying to think of a bigger contrast to your favorite set and coming up blank. :) I have Op 50 and 76 in that cycle. Now I'm sitting here trying to think of a bigger contrast to MY favorite set (coincidentally the same as yours). Still blank. :D Hey, you will survive this. Herman did. And see? He's still... Herman. :o

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 13, 2011, 04:44:46 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 13, 2011, 03:44:50 PM
Well, I did it:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51F42QoSwdL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)

:-[ :-X :-\ :'( 8) :o

Outstanding! I have about three more installments to get before I have the complete run. If you enjoy it half as much as I do, you will love it! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 13, 2011, 04:45:26 PM

Digging the piano trios.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 13, 2011, 04:47:17 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 13, 2011, 04:45:26 PM
Digging the piano trios.

And rightly so, Karl. Who is playing them for you?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 13, 2011, 04:54:10 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 13, 2011, 03:50:30 PM
Cor! That was... big! I am sitting here trying to think of a bigger contrast to your favorite set and coming up blank. :) I have Op 50 and 76 in that cycle. Now I'm sitting here trying to think of a bigger contrast to MY favorite set (coincidentally the same as yours). Still blank. :D Hey, you will survive this. Herman did. And see? He's still... Herman. :o

Quote from: Bogey on November 13, 2011, 04:44:46 PM
Outstanding! I have about three more installments to get before I have the complete run. If you enjoy it half as much as I do, you will love it! ;D

I have thought in this set for a long time. I almost purchased it two years ago, when the sale of Abeille Musique; but I didn't. Now I found a complete set conveniently priced, so I just pulled the trigger.... I'm thinking about this and I'm still a bit scared. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 13, 2011, 04:56:09 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 13, 2011, 04:47:17 PM
And rightly so, Karl. Who is playing them for you?

8)

Ye Van Swieten Trio, O Gurn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 13, 2011, 05:04:08 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 13, 2011, 04:56:09 PM
Ye Van Swieten Trio, O Gurn.

I frequently think this is the best complete set ever recorded by Brilliant Classics; but then I recall that it was probably braver to record all those gorgeous discs with music for baryton. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 13, 2011, 05:07:50 PM

Now on vinyl....set me back 2 bones the other night:

(http://www.classicalvinyl.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/s/a/sax2395.jpg)

I am surprised of how much it does not remind me of Klemperer. ;D Enjoyable.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 13, 2011, 05:07:55 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 13, 2011, 04:54:10 PM
I have thought in this set for a long time. I almost purchased it two years ago, when the sale of Abeille Musique; but I didn't. Now I found a complete set conveniently priced, so I just pulled the trigger.... I'm thinking about this and I'm still a bit scared. ;D

:D Kinda like when I bought my first opera. I kept it on the shelf for a year, bought and read a libretto and commentary, thought about it, thought about it, finally played it! Damned if I didn't really like it too. Well, it was Figaro after all. :) I don't know though, I'll be interested to hear your reaction. You can PM me about it if you prefer... :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnBruggen90_92cover.jpg)Orchestra of the 18th Century / Frans Brüggen - Hob 01_090 Symphony in C 1st mvmt - Adagio - Allegro assai

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 13, 2011, 05:12:30 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 13, 2011, 04:56:09 PM
Ye Van Swieten Trio, O Gurn.

Ah yes. Of course, my fading memory strikes again. :) Have you moved forward in time yet from when we last spoke? I am curious to your reaction to the deceptively numbered 6-8. Early favorites of mine. :)

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 13, 2011, 05:04:08 PM
I frequently think this is the best complete set ever recorded by Brilliant Classics; but then I recall that it was probably braver to record all those gorgeous discs with music for baryton. :)

Yes, it is awfully good. I think if one could have just one set, and didn't care about harpsichord in the early ones, that would be the set to have. Very nicely played and recorded. Brilliant has come a long way since my first box of Complete Dvorak String Quartets!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 13, 2011, 05:14:35 PM

Quote from: Bogey on November 13, 2011, 05:07:50 PM
Now on vinyl....set me back 2 bones the other night:

(http://www.classicalvinyl.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/s/a/sax2395.jpg)

I am surprised of how much it does not remind me of Klemperer. ;D Enjoyable.

:D Bill, you are even crueler than I am. :D 2 great works though, hard to not enjoy!

You know, those Hogwood symphony disks started out on vinyl too. You might have a go at digging out 1 or 2 of those. Bet you would like 'em! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 13, 2011, 05:17:17 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 13, 2011, 05:14:35 PM
:D Bill, you are even crueler than I am. :D 2 great works though, hard to not enjoy!

You know, those Hogwood symphony disks started out on vinyl too. You might have a go at digging out 1 or 2 of those. Bet you would like 'em! :)

8)

Oh....did not know they made the vinyl cut. I will be on the look out for them. This Klemperer is quite good. I wonder how many he recorded of Haydn's?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 13, 2011, 05:19:56 PM

Quote from: Bogey on November 13, 2011, 05:17:17 PM
Oh....did not know they made the vinyl cut. I will be on the look out for them. This Klemperer is quite good. I wonder how many he recorded of Haydn's?

Sorry, I'll have to defer to someone who knows vinyl AND knows Klemp. I am neither. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 13, 2011, 05:21:06 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 13, 2011, 05:19:56 PM
Sorry, I'll have to defer to someone who knows vinyl AND knows Klemp. I am neither. :-\

8)

I am guessing just these:

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=188206

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 13, 2011, 05:22:49 PM

Listening to The Clock as I type. That third movement is what made me dig into Haydn. One of my classical watershed moments.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 13, 2011, 05:27:25 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 13, 2011, 05:07:55 PM
:D Kinda like when I bought my first opera. I kept it on the shelf for a year, bought and read a libretto and commentary, thought about it, thought about it, finally played it! Damned if I didn't really like it too. Well, it was Figaro after all. :) I don't know though, I'll be interested to hear your reaction. You can PM me about it if you prefer... :D

It's my own biography! But in my case the opera is still on the shelf. And this is not figurative: I own just one Mozart opera - Don Giovanni, conducted by Jacobs and bought about 18 months ago - but I have not heard it yet. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 13, 2011, 05:27:33 PM

Quote from: Bogey on November 13, 2011, 05:21:06 PM
I am guessing just these:

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=188206

I note they don't mention when it was recorded. I'm sure someone will tell us that the New PO makes it between 1970 and his death, or whatever the true facts are. :) Nice variety there of the late works.

Quote from: Bogey on November 13, 2011, 05:22:49 PM
Listening to The Clock as I type. That third movement is what made me dig into Haydn. One of my classical watershed moments.

Not hard to see why, that's a lovely movement. For me it was the 2nd movement of #100. I had one of Elgarian's 'dancing around the room' gob-smacking moments there. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 13, 2011, 05:29:12 PM

Recording dates: 1964 to 1971.

This on the Klemperer efforts from an Amazon review:

Now, what about the performances? As already indicated, they are simply excellent. Unlike later and dry authenticist recordings, these creamy and delicately balanced performances sparkle and glow. It's pure musical pleasure throughout. \

'Dem are fightin' words! ;D

Ooooooooooo....looking about, I see Bohm tried his hand as well. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 13, 2011, 05:31:47 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 13, 2011, 05:27:25 PM
It's my own biography! But in my case the opera is still on the shelf. And this is not figurative: I own just one Mozart opera - Don Giovanni, conducted by Jacobs and bought about 18 months ago - but I have not heard it yet. :)

:D Cool! I thought it was just me, the way people carry on about opera here. I listen to quite a bit now, but I am still wary of anything not by Haydn, Mozart or Beethoven. Let me tell you though, you are safe with Jacobs' DG. It is superb, and really, it is just a huge sonata in d minor. The singing isn't even OTT, this ain't at all like Verdi and Company. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnBruggen90_92cover.jpg)Orchestra of the 18th Century; Frans Brüggen - Hob 01_091 Symphony in Eb 1st mvmt - Largo - Allegro assai

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 13, 2011, 05:34:01 PM

Quote from: Bogey on November 13, 2011, 05:29:12 PM
Recording dates: 1964 to 1971.

This on the Klemperer efforts from an Amazon review:

Now, what about the performances? As already indicated, they are simply excellent. Unlike later and dry authenticist recordings, these creamy and delicately balanced performances sparkle and glow. It's pure musical pleasure throughout. \

'Dem are fightin' words! ;D

Ooooooooooo....looking about, I see Bohm tried his hand as well. 8)

See, he can't just say they are shamelessly post-Romantic without also saying that later, HIP/PI performances are dry. Just can't do it. And here I thought that Klemp was just all wet. My bad ::) :D :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 13, 2011, 05:37:39 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 13, 2011, 05:14:35 PM
:D Bill, you are even crueler than I am.

Well, you know I like my Haydn HIP a la Hogwood, but I enjoy it just as well when someone tries to turn him into sounding like Beethoven....hence my love of the Beaux Arts Trio and the Tátrai Quartet. ;D Hope this does not frighten you even more Antoine. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 13, 2011, 05:41:55 PM

Quote from: Bogey on November 13, 2011, 05:37:39 PM
Well, you know I like my Haydn HIP a la Hogwood, but I enjoy it just as well when someone tries to turn him into sounding like Beethoven....hence my love of the Beauxe Arts Trio and the Tátrai Quartet. ;D Hope this does not frighten you even more Antoine. :D

I have an easier time with the BAT than the Tatrai. But I just have a really hard time, no matter how well played, to hear a grand piano playing a part that I know so well on the clavichord. It is so different in conception. The Tatrai play with glacial tempi for my taste. They play wonderfully well, but it seems to wring the joy out somehow. I like the party that the Festetics are having instead. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 13, 2011, 05:45:32 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 13, 2011, 05:41:55 PM
I have an easier time with the BAT than the Tatrai. But I just have a really hard time, no matter how well played, to hear a grand piano playing a part that I know so well on the clavichord. It is so different in conception. The Tatrai play with glacial tempi for my taste. They play wonderfully well, but it seems to wring the joy out somehow. I like the party that the Festetics are having instead. :D

8)

Like I said.....Beethoven! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 13, 2011, 05:49:15 PM

When it comes to Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven, I enjoy a spectrum of interps. Just how I roll. Save HvK for Haydn....that's just....well.... (http://image.normthompson.com/solutions/images/us/local/products/detail/87767.jpg);D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 13, 2011, 05:52:04 PM

Quote from: Bogey on November 13, 2011, 05:49:15 PM
When it comes to Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven, I enjoy a spectrum of interps. Just how I roll. Save HvK for Haydn....that's just....well.... ;D

You can say it, it's sinful. And yet Bernstein seems to get it. Although he drives the VPO, and sticks to late works. Still, he seems to be in on the joke. HvK.... not so much. "What joke? >:( " :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 13, 2011, 06:05:18 PM

You guys are scaring me... Anyway, I will always have the AMP (nah, I have never sold a disc in my entire life, excepting when I was stupid enough to sell all my cassettes). :-\ :(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 13, 2011, 06:08:43 PM

Now for some Haydn (vinyl) from Sarge's hometown hero.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41o9bAa-bmL._AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 13, 2011, 06:10:40 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 13, 2011, 06:05:18 PM
You guys are scaring me... Anyway, I will always have the AMP (nah, I have never sold a disc in my entire life, excepting when I was stupid enough to sell all my cassettes). :-\ :(

:) No, really, that DG is a wonder. No scaring there.

Of course, the other stuff isn't news to you really. You are very flexible, Antoine. Hell, you even listen to Bach! :o :o You can do this. And like our similar opera histories; I have never sold a disk either. Not sure how I would go about it. I keep my mistakes as reminders to think before pushing the button... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 13, 2011, 06:11:27 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 13, 2011, 06:05:18 PM
You guys are scaring me... Anyway, I will always have the AMP (nah, I have never sold a disc in my entire life, excepting when I was stupid enough to sell all my cassettes). :-\ :(

Collectors at record shows are always looking for these, Antoine. The 8-tracks are huge as well. I do not quite get it, but then look what I sometimes bring home.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 13, 2011, 06:13:01 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 13, 2011, 06:10:40 PM
:) No, really, that DG is a wonder. No scaring there.

Of course, the other stuff isn't news to you really. You are very flexible, Antoine. Hell, you even listen to Bach! :o :o You can do this. And like our similar opera histories; I have never sold a disk either. Not sure how I would go about it. I keep my mistakes as reminders to think before pushing the button... :D

8)

And what may be a mistake now a few years down the road can turn into enjoyable listens (see my Mahler collection for details ;D).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 13, 2011, 06:13:59 PM

Quote from: Bogey on November 13, 2011, 06:08:43 PM
Now for some Haydn (vinyl) from Sarge's hometown hero.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41o9bAa-bmL._AA300_.jpg)

Well, that's well spoken of. #88 is one of my Top 5 Haydn symphonies. If you aren't really familiar with it, dig in and have seconds even. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnBruggen90_92cover.jpg) Orchestra of the 18th Century; Frans Brüggen - Hob 01_092 Symphony in G 4th mvmt - Presto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 13, 2011, 06:19:12 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 13, 2011, 06:13:59 PM
Well, that's well spoken of. #88 is one of my Top 5 Haydn symphonies. If you aren't really familiar with it, dig in and have seconds even. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnBruggen90_92cover.jpg) Orchestra of the 18th Century; Frans Brüggen - Hob 01_092 Symphony in G 4th mvmt - Presto

With Szell as the conductor, or the 88 in general?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 13, 2011, 06:23:20 PM

Quote from: Bogey on November 13, 2011, 06:19:12 PM
With Szell as the conductor, or the 88 in general?

#88 in general. You can take it as given that I almost never deal with specific performances (unless asked).

"The music is great, no matter who you like in it" is my motto. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnBruggen88_89cover.jpg) Orchestra of the 18th Century; Frans Brüggen - Hob 01_105 Sinfonia concertante in Bb 2nd mvmt - Andante

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 13, 2011, 06:28:29 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 13, 2011, 06:23:20 PM
#88 in general. You can take it as given that I almost never deal with specific performances (unless asked).

"The music is great, no matter who you like in it" is my motto. :)

Well, Cleveland was on fire in the final movement. Break-neck pace, but it worked!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 13, 2011, 06:32:58 PM

Quote from: Bogey on November 13, 2011, 06:28:29 PM
Well, Cleveland was on fire in the final movement. Break-neck pace, but it worked!

Cool! There are a lot of those orchestras, when they had a good driver at the helm, who really tore it up. Gives me another grin over how HIP goes so fast! I bet Brüggen takes it slower than Szell does. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on November 13, 2011, 08:01:40 PM

Gurn, did you realize the Rebel set includes the Stabat Mater (conducted by Burdick)?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on November 13, 2011, 08:14:30 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 13, 2011, 05:31:47 PM
:D Cool! I thought it was just me, the way people carry on about opera here. I listen to quite a bit now, but I am still wary of anything not by Haydn, Mozart or Beethoven. Let me tell you though, you are safe with Jacobs' DG. It is superb, and really, it is just a huge sonata in d minor. The singing isn't even OTT, this ain't at all like Verdi and Company. :)

8)

I've found the entire series of Jacobs-Mozart operas to be very worthwhile. Cosi is the only one I don't have, and that is now winging its way across the ocean to me from Presto. His Zauberflote is especially interesting because he approached it with the principle that the spoken portions of the libretto deserve the same quality of treatment as the sung portions--that the Spiel part of Singspiel must not be forgotten--and introduces some of the (audio) special effects a theater of Mozart's era might have provided at appropriate places. (and the musical quality is consistently high.) One only wishes he would do some of the earlier operas (Abduction, at the very least), but apparently he's turned his attention to Handel now.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 14, 2011, 01:57:14 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 13, 2011, 05:34:01 PM
See, he can't just say they are shamelessly post-Romantic without also saying that later, HIP/PI performances are dry. Just can't do it.

Aye, inveterate throwers of stones into their neighbor's gardens . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 14, 2011, 05:19:27 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 13, 2011, 08:01:40 PM
Gurn, did you realize the Rebel set includes the Stabat Mater (conducted by Burdick)?

No. That's great, I will have one to rightfully compare to my Pinnock. Thanks for the info, Jeffrey. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 14, 2011, 05:21:24 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 14, 2011, 01:57:14 AM
Aye, inveterate throwers of stones into their neighbor's gardens . . . .

Exactly. I can talk about post-Romantic all day long without mentioning that it doesn't appeal to me. it's the professionals that seem to lack at times. ::)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on November 14, 2011, 05:25:04 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 13, 2011, 08:01:40 PM
Gurn, did you realize the Rebel set includes the Stabat Mater (conducted by Burdick)?

I recently purchased the individual disc of Rebel/Burdick's Stabat Mater, the tempos are slightly faster than Pinnock's and the female soloists have a lighter tone, both of these qualities are positives, I love both recordings and need more time with the Rebel recording, but the several listens I've had have been very rewarding.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on November 14, 2011, 05:25:57 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 13, 2011, 08:01:40 PM
Gurn, did you realize the Rebel set includes the Stabat Mater (conducted by Burdick)?

And a lovely thing it is! You go, Gurn!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 14, 2011, 05:29:38 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on November 14, 2011, 05:25:04 AM
I recently purchased the individual disc of Rebel/Burdick's Stabat Mater, the tempos are slightly faster than Pinnock's and the female soloists have a lighter tone, both of these qualities are positives, I love both recordings and need more time with the Rebel recording, but the several listens I've had have been very rewarding.

Quote from: chasmaniac on November 14, 2011, 05:25:57 AM
And a lovely thing it is! You go, Gurn!

This can only be a good thing, I'm never quite happy when there is only one choice available of anything. Despite that it is good. Of course, this is true of a lot of Haydn, he is tragically under-recorded. This will be a boon. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 14, 2011, 05:43:37 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 14, 2011, 05:21:24 AM
Exactly. I can talk about post-Romantic all day long without mentioning that it doesn't appeal to me.

To say nothing of Atonal Honking! : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 14, 2011, 05:47:29 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 14, 2011, 05:43:37 AM
To say nothing of Atonal Honking! : )

No, I wouldn't go that far... ;D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on November 14, 2011, 06:27:50 AM

Gurn, I suppose you're the guy to ask - I have a morbid curiosity:

Are you aware of any transcriptions (or better, recordings) of Haydn's symphonies arranged for string quartet, or string quartets orchestrated?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 14, 2011, 06:57:11 AM

Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevna Pettersson on November 14, 2011, 06:27:50 AM
Gurn, I suppose you're the guy to ask - I have a morbid curiosity:

Are you aware of any transcriptions (or better, recordings) of Haydn's symphonies arranged for string quartet, or string quartets orchestrated?

No, not for string quartet. Some of the London symphonies have been arranged for keyboard, viola, cello & flute (IIRC) and there are readily available recordings. But I haven't heard any for just SQ... :-\

[asin]B00009NOX2[/asin]

Have you actually heard of some? Or just casting about? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on November 14, 2011, 07:24:33 AM

It was that I tend to experience much of the same spirit in the symphonies and mid-late quartets, a kind of un-restrained and naturalistic joyfulness which almost breaches genre. In both instances - say, Opus 76 and the Paris series - the feeling of music-making of creative fecundity almost begs to overflow into different mediums just to be heard in new ways, such is the simmering invention. A strange reaction to get from such idiomatically written pieces, I know ;)

It's nice to know that there is something along these lines in those Salomon arrangements

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 14, 2011, 07:41:25 AM

Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevna Pettersson on November 14, 2011, 07:24:33 AM
It was that I tend to experience much of the same spirit in the symphonies and mid-late quartets, a kind of un-restrained and naturalistic joyfulness which almost breaches genre. In both instances - say, Opus 76 and the Paris series - the feeling of music-making of creative fecundity almost begs to overflow into different mediums just to be heard in new ways, such is the simmering invention. A strange reaction to get from such idiomatically written pieces, I know ;)

It's nice to know that there is something along these lines in those Salomon arrangements

My, aren't we poetic today. :) But I know what you mean and agree with you. I actually have one of those arrangements on this disk;

[asin]B0020LI68A[/asin]

and in perusing it I see that my first memory, of it being a violin and not a viola, was the correct one. In any case, I highly recommend this disk for the other things on it too, those 3 flute trios are excellent. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on November 14, 2011, 12:21:39 PM

Blimey. I go off for a week's holiday and find I have a zillion pages to catch up - just in this thread! And then I spotted this:

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 09, 2011, 04:23:49 AM
Oh, here's another also;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/ConcertosSchornsheim.jpg)

Well now: one of the places I visited last week was one of the UK's last remaining specialist record shops - Bath Compact Discs - and they had a copy of this Schornsheim set in their racks. I was seriously tempted, but then I've bought a lot of Haydn recently - a lot of it still unlistened-to. And meanwhile I found myself drawn irresistibly to some wonderful Handel opera bargains, and a set of period Mendelssohn Trios that they played for me in the shop while I browsed (ooh lovely), and before I knew where I was I'd spent all I could afford. So Schornsheim had to stay in the rack.

But after reading through some of this thread now, I found some samples from her set of concerti and have been listening to them. And even from those short snippets, I can tell that they are seriously fun, aren't they? I never thought the organ could sound so delightful, so light and airy. So thanks for reinforcing this recommendation Gurn - I intend to get one of these as soon as present finances recover.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 14, 2011, 04:38:41 PM

Quote from: Elgarian on November 14, 2011, 12:21:39 PM
Blimey. I go off for a week's holiday and find I have a zillion pages to catch up - just in this thread! And then I spotted this:

Well now: one of the places I visited last week was one of the UK's last remaining specialist record shops - Bath Compact Discs - and they had a copy of this Schornsheim set in their racks. I was seriously tempted, but then I've bought a lot of Haydn recently - a lot of it still unlistened-to. And meanwhile I found myself drawn irresistibly to some wonderful Handel opera bargains, and a set of period Mendelssohn Trios that they played for me in the shop while I browsed (ooh lovely), and before I knew where I was I'd spent all I could afford. So Schornsheim had to stay in the rack.

But after reading through some of this thread now, I found some samples from her set of concerti and have been listening to them. And even from those short snippets, I can tell that they are seriously fun, aren't they? I never thought the organ could sound so delightful, so light and airy. So thanks for reinforcing this recommendation Gurn - I intend to get one of these as soon as present finances recover.

Yes, actually I was quite surprised by them myself, who is also not much of an organ fan. I have them also on harpsichord and some on fortepiano, and find that the organ versions are my preference. And the organs that Haydn had access to in those days weren't the huge monsters of today but small, like you would imagine a chamber organ, for example. So the sound is corresponding, of course. Just for amusement, you could very authentically insert one into a mass, like between the Credo and the Sanctus, and have an idea what they were actually composed for. #2, 5 or 10 would be a good choice for that, IMO. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnImmerseel4445cover.jpg) Anima Eterna \ Immerseel - Hob 18_11 Concerto in D for Keyboard 3rd mvmt - Rondo all'Ungarese: Allegro assai

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 14, 2011, 05:23:35 PM

Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevna Pettersson on November 14, 2011, 06:27:50 AM
Gurn, I suppose you're the guy to ask - I have a morbid curiosity:

Are you aware of any transcriptions (or better, recordings) of Haydn's symphonies arranged for string quartet, or string quartets orchestrated?

That is like asking for a diet Mountain Dew or worse yet, margarine for your lobster! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 14, 2011, 05:35:33 PM

Part 10
1761

So, we finally reach the year when Haydn has become employable, and by a man of substance. To be clear, and this is not always made so, Haydn's first Esterhazy employer was not the famous Nicholas the Magnificent. Prince Paul Anton Esterhazy was an acquaintance of Count Morzin, and when he discovered that Haydn, composer of the many entertainments that he had enjoyed at Morzin's palace, was at loose ends, he immediately made a job offer. His own court composer and Kapellmeister, Gregory Joseph Werner, was very old with not a lot longer on earth. Taking the long view, Prince Paul went with a patently talented and vital young man. The ironic joke in all this is that Werner outlived Esterhazy by nearly 5 years, but that's not as important as that Haydn's future was secured for life. He was formally appointed Vice-Kapellmeister on May 1, 1761, although he had been working informally for several months for the Esterhazy's in Vienna, where they over-wintered every year before retiring to Eisenstadt for the summer months.

The music of 1761 doesn't provide the quantity of 1760, but certainly some interesting qualities show up. :)

The music:

Hob 01_003 Symphony in G
Hob 01_015 Symphony in D
   The Hanover Band / Goodman
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Goodman01_05cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Goodman13_16cover.jpg)

Hob 01_006 Symphony in D
Hob 01_007 Symphony in C
Hob 01_008 Symphony in G
   Concilium musicum Wien / Angerer
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSymphoniesAngerercover.jpg)

Hob 02_08 Divertimento in D for 2 Flutes, 2 Horns, 2 Violins & Basso
Hob 02_14 Divertimento a quattro in C for 2 Clarinets & 2 Horns
Hob 02_17 Divertimento a nove Stromenti in C for 2 Clarinets, 2 Horns, 2 Violins, 2 Violas & Basso
Hob 02_24 Divertimento fragment in Eb for Flute, 2 Cors Anglaise, Bassoon, 2 Horns, 2 Violins & Basso (Fragment - 1 movement remains, a Tempo di Menuetto)
   Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnEarlyDivertimenticover.jpg)

Hob 02_33 Scherzando #1 in F
Hob 02_34 Scherzando #2 in C
Hob 02_35 Scherzando #3 in D
Hob 02_36 Scherzando #4 in G
Hob 02_37 Scherzando #5 in E
Hob 02_38 Scherzando #6 in A
   Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Scherz.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnEsterhazyNaplescover.jpg)

Hob 03_10 Divertimento in F for Strings Op 2 #4
Hob 03_12 Divertimento in Bb for Strings Op 2 #6
   Hamburg Soloists / Emil Klein
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/StringdivertimentosKlein-2.jpg)

Hob 07a_04 Concerto in G for Violin
   The English Concert / Pinnock Standage
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/StandageVCcover.jpg)

Hob 16_13 Sonata #15 in E for Keyboard
   Christine Schornsheim
Hob 16_14 Sonata #16 in D for Keyboard
   Ulrika Davidsson
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardSchornsheimHaydn.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardDavidssoncover.jpg)

Hob 24b_01 Aria for Soprano "Costretta a piangere"
   Manfred Huss / Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Miah Persson
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussOperaatEsterhazacover.jpg)

Some interesting new pathways being explored here. In the symphony realm, we come upon the first famous ones, #6, 7 & 8, often called "Morning, Noon & Night Symphonies", and it's true, they do constitute a set. It is believed that Haydn wrote them at the suggestion of Prince Paul. They are chock-full of beauties, many of them coming in the way of concertante solo writing for the several virtuosi in the orchestra. And tone painting (a sunrise, for example, along the lines he would use for the rest of his career, including the beautiful Op 76 "Sunrise" quartet, and in The Creation). I like this version by Concilium Musicum Wien, although there are many from which to choose.

Another new form, unknown from any other quarter, is the set of 6 "Scherzandi". Each one is a miniature, 4 movement symphony, lasting an average of 10 minutes. It has been proposed, and I agree (without evidence except human nature) they were a tour de force novelty that Haydn wrote to impress and please Prince Paul. They appear to be the very first items composed after employment was confirmed. The 2 versions I show are actually the same one, the Koch/Schwann original, and the BIS re-release of 10 years later.

Also now, we find the first Aria. After the years working with Porpora, who was a brilliant (if cranky) composer, you can see that Haydn already knew what he was doing, right from the beginning. Miah Persson does a lovely job with this one, the entire disk is excellent.

So that's the beginning of the big times. I hope you all have at least a few of these to enjoy, and will share your impressions here.

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardOdiaga1cover.jpg) Lola Odiaga (Fortepiano) - Hob 16_34 Sonata #53 in e for Keyboard 1st mvmt - Presto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on November 14, 2011, 11:35:26 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 14, 2011, 05:35:33 PM
In the symphony realm, we come upon the first famous ones, #6, 7 & 8, often called "Morning, Noon & Night Symphonies", and it's true, they do constitute a set. It is believed that Haydn wrote them at the suggestion of Prince Paul. They are chock-full of beauties, many of them coming in the way of concertante solo writing for the several virtuosi in the orchestra. And tone painting (a sunrise, for example, along the lines he would use for the rest of his career, including the beautiful Op 76 "Sunrise" quartet, and in The Creation). I like this version by Concilium Musicum Wien, although there are many from which to choose.

I found some interesting musical psychology going on here, when I listened to these (in the Goodman versions). The very fact that they have those 'time of day' references attached to them changes the way I listen, and pushes all notions of 'pure music' out of my head (assuming there were any there in the first place). The label gives me a head start, as it were, and immediately I get to work conjuring up visual images to accompany the way the music unfolds. The result is that the playing field isn't level: I felt that I was 'getting more out of' 6, 7, and 8, and maybe that's partly because he upped his musical game as you say, Gurn. But I can't help suspecting that it also has something to do with my own expectations, and the way my brain flips into 'dreaming' mode too easily, when given a bit of a nudge.

I suppose they would still stand out if they didn't have those titles attached to them?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on November 15, 2011, 02:17:39 AM

From the Haydn list:

QuoteBaguer's Symphony #16 in G major (from the Contemporaries of Mozart Series on Chandos). The 4th movement is note for note identical to Haydn's Hob. 01:69 in C major ('Laudon'). It isn't strictly a mis-attribution, Baguer was a huge fan of Haydn and he simply appropriated the Rondo: Presto finale to close out his own symphony. Listen to them side by side and you will see what I mean.

Don't have the Baguer. Are the finales the same?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on November 15, 2011, 02:56:17 AM

Someone sell me on the big baryton set from Brilliant. It's making me itch.

[asin]B001P4KG1S[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 15, 2011, 03:29:48 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on November 15, 2011, 02:17:39 AM
From the Haydn list:

Don't have the Baguer. Are the finales the same?

They are quite similar. In the main melody, in Haydn, the last note is the same as the previous. In the Baguer, the note is lower. So there is this one big difference in the main melody. There also seem to be differences in instrumentation. For example, the Haydn starts with just a couple strings playing the main theme (with the rest of the orchestra coming in later), but the Baguer has it start orchestral from the beginning. There are probably many more small differences, but I don't have the scores of either to really give you the full scoop.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 15, 2011, 04:24:37 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on November 15, 2011, 02:17:39 AM
From the Haydn list:

Don't have the Baguer. Are the finales the same?

Note for note. Grillparzer is a genius, he wouldn't screw that up. 0:) Well, if you sit and listen to them one after the other, you couldn't tell which was which, I don't think.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on November 15, 2011, 04:26:08 AM

Seeking opinions on these too:

[asin]B001EQPD3I[/asin]
[asin]B001LPNVDG[/asin]

I thought the Eisenstadt trio handled the folksongs very well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 15, 2011, 04:29:12 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on November 15, 2011, 04:26:08 AM
Seeking opinions on these too:

[asin]B001EQPD3I[/asin]
[asin]B001LPNVDG[/asin]

I thought the Eisenstadt trio handled the folksongs very well.

The Oort is very good. I am pleased to have it. The Eisenstadt Trio is undoubtedly fine, Sonic Dave speaks very highly of them, but I have other versions (PI) that I really like so I haven't spent enough time with them to pass judgment. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 15, 2011, 04:39:00 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on November 15, 2011, 02:56:17 AM
Someone sell me on the big baryton set from Brilliant. It's making me itch.

[asin]B001P4KG1S[/asin]

Would I be doing you a favor if I did that? Not sure. It is beautiful music, but generally somber (well, baryton, viola, cello; what else could it be?). IMHO, if you wanted a few disks of baryton trios in order to get a good feel for it, that would be all you need to be happy. I got by for a long time with the 2 Hsu disks on ASV / Gaudeamus, for example, along with this one;

[asin]B000001QBA[/asin]

It is no negative criticism of the music to say that a little baryton music goes a long way.

OTOH.... ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 15, 2011, 04:49:24 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 15, 2011, 04:24:37 AM
Note for note. Grillparzer is a genius, he wouldn't screw that up. 0:) Well, if you sit and listen to them one after the other, you couldn't tell which was which, I don't think.

8)

But they don't sound note for note as I mentioned in my comments. Are you saying it is note for note or using someone else's comment on that?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on November 15, 2011, 04:58:25 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 15, 2011, 04:39:00 AM
It is no negative criticism of the music to say that a little baryton music goes a long way.

OTOH.... ;)

8)

I've made do with this one for a long time:

(http://rodbyatt.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/scan0001.jpg?w=357&h=353)

Looking for more, and at Brilliant's ridiculous price... :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 15, 2011, 04:59:58 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 15, 2011, 04:39:00 AM
. . . IMHO, if you wanted a few disks of baryton trios in order to get a good feel for it, that would be all you need to be happy. I got by for a long time with the 2 Hsu disks on ASV / Gaudeamus, for example, along with this one;
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000001QBA.01.L.jpg)

It is no negative criticism of the music to say that a little baryton music goes a long way.

Thanks for this, O Gurn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 15, 2011, 05:27:07 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 15, 2011, 04:49:24 AM
But they don't sound note for note as I mentioned in my comments. Are you saying it is note for note or using someone else's comment on that?

No, I just played them one after the other and they sounded identical to me (except that the Baguer didn't use the repeat and the Harnoncourt/Haydn did). I certainly don't have a score for the Baguer! It would be more than a little misleading to say that one didn't copy from the other simply because there were a few notes different. A very few notes! It is one thing to say "he used the Haydn as a model", and quite another to admit that he copied it nearly identically. In a different day and age, there would have been lawsuits over it. Back then, it was standard practice and above reproach. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 15, 2011, 06:02:26 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on November 15, 2011, 04:58:25 AM
I've made do with this one for a long time:

(http://rodbyatt.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/scan0001.jpg?w=357&h=353)

Looking for more, and at Brilliant's ridiculous price... :)

No, don't let me out you off that. The box is wonderful. I was simply pointing out that if you have assessed your needs vis-a-vis baryton music and decided that you need it all, then you can't do better than this. The playing is excellent, and it really is complete!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 15, 2011, 06:13:40 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 15, 2011, 05:27:07 AM
No, I just played them one after the other and they sounded identical to me (except that the Baguer didn't use the repeat and the Harnoncourt/Haydn did). I certainly don't have a score for the Baguer! It would be more than a little misleading to say that one didn't copy from the other simply because there were a few notes different. A very few notes! It is one thing to say "he used the Haydn as a model", and quite another to admit that he copied it nearly identically. In a different day and age, there would have been lawsuits over it. Back then, it was standard practice and above reproach. :)

8)

Ok. I guess we are saying the same thing, but pehaps I am trying to be too precise. I will say that I think some notes are more important than others, but I guess you knew that too! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on November 15, 2011, 06:05:16 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 15, 2011, 04:29:12 AM
The Oort is very good. I am pleased to have it.

I have le Brautigam integrale. How does Oort compare to him? I have and like very much Oort's complete Mozart set.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 15, 2011, 06:11:28 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 15, 2011, 06:05:16 PM
I have le Brautigam integrale. How does Oort compare to him? I have and like very much Oort's complete Mozart set.

To my ear, he is a bit less aggressive than Brautigam, although it seems like pretty much everyone else is too. :) I agree about the Oort Mozart, I think if you like one you will like the other too. Much the same attack, so to speak. If you find Brautigam to be just too much (I can see where some people would; I do sometimes), then Oort should be just right. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnBilsonSchantzcover.jpg) Malcolm Bilson - Hob 16_50 Sonata in C for Fortepiano 1st mvmt - Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 16, 2011, 06:15:25 PM

Part 11 - 1762

1762 showed the advantages of working for a large and wealthy family. Like a corporation, it continued on unabated when, in March, Prince Paul died suddenly. His heir, Nicholas, was an even greater patron of musical arts than Paul. Haydn had recently signed his famous contract, the one listing the amazing number of duties, and allowable behaviors, and above all, basically stating in advance that all of his music belonged to the Prince. Despite the fact that to our sensibilities this sounds onerous, Haydn was lucky to have such security, and he was well aware of it. Compared to his life in Vienna just a few short years before, this was amazing good fortune, and he made the most of it.

Here, then, is the music of 1762;

Hob 01_009 Symphony in C
Hob 01_014 Symphony in A
The Hanover Band / Goodman
Hob 01_033 Symphony in C
Hob 01_036 Symphony in Eb
Hob 01_108 Symphony in Bb
Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Goodman13_16cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HogwoodVol02Cover.jpg)

Hob 07d_03 Concerto in D for Horn & 2 Oboes
L'Archibudelli / Koster
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnNaturlHorncover.jpg)

Hob 28_01 Opera "Acide"
Manfred Huss - Haydn Sinfonietta Wien
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnAcidecover.jpg)

Pretty slim pickings, seems like, but one can only guess how much he had on his plate that first full year! And really, he has already spoiled us, to where a mere 5 symphonies and a concerto and an opera seem like he must be a layabout! And the opera wasn't even performed in 1762, instead it was held until the following year, where it was played at the Prince's wedding celebration. Note also that there is, as yet, no sacred music. According to his contract, sacred music was the purview of old Werner as long as he could handle it. Which he did, with a zest that belied his age. The horn concerto, which is the one that we call "#1", is a nice vehicle for showing off the talents of the superb hornists who worked for the Esterhazy orchestra. There are rather few really nice versions of it, I think this one by L'Archibudelli / Koster is top shelf.

Please feel free to comment and expand on what I have presented here, which is barely enough, I know, to keep you in touch with how the music and the life are progressing. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnLiederVermeulencover.jpg) Anne Cambier (Soprano) \ Jan Vermeulen (Fortepiano) - Hob 26a_17 Lied für das Clavier 'Geistliches Lied'

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on November 16, 2011, 09:17:21 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 16, 2011, 06:15:25 PM
Haydn had recently signed his famous contract, the one listing the amazing number of duties, and allowable behaviors, and above all, basically stating in advance that all of his music belonged to the Prince.

I believe the exact wording in the contract was "All your Hob are belong to us." ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on November 17, 2011, 12:28:46 AM

Wanting to hear more of that light and airy Haydn Happiness on organ, I gave in before the end of the month and bought one of these:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51CZMRJRnLL._SY100_.jpg)

I can't keep up with the pace of proceedings, but I'll be hovering at the back of the pack, gathering up some of the gems scattered in your wake....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 17, 2011, 04:13:34 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on November 16, 2011, 09:17:21 PM
I believe the exact wording in the contract was "All your Hob are belong to us." ;D

Yes, translated from the Hungarian. :D

Quote from: Elgarian on November 17, 2011, 12:28:46 AM
Wanting to hear more of that light and airy Haydn Happiness on organ, I gave in before the end of the month and bought one of these:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51CZMRJRnLL._SY100_.jpg)

I can't keep up with the pace of proceedings, but I'll be hovering at the back of the pack, gathering up some of the gems scattered in your wake....

Ah, you'll be pleased. :) Anyway, I had several years to gather this stuff together, it was easier that way. Feel free though to stop me at any time and discuss. That is my aim, after all. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 17, 2011, 11:17:27 AM

Enjoying your series here, O Gurn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 17, 2011, 12:17:23 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 17, 2011, 11:17:27 AM
Enjoying your series here, O Gurn.

Thank you, Karl. I would delight in your critical comments on Haydn's music. Very soon we will be moving into better known musical territory and I think everyone will be a bit more easy with comment when we get on more familiar ground. Some information on the use of rhetoric in composition would be a wonderful thing, if it appeals to you. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on November 17, 2011, 07:17:19 PM

Yes, Gurn, equally enjoying your writings here at the Haus. ;D I've been a Haydn symphony admirer for years, but have explored so many areas of his compositions, thanks to the Haus, that my collection has grown to about 5 times its size.

Seen this Huss recording several times on this thread and finally purchased it...

[asin]B0042ZH8TA[/asin]

I've always immensely enjoyed No.60, but this is my first listen to No.12. These lively performances are given such great clarity within this recording. It was recommended to me and now I'm passing that recommendation along.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on November 17, 2011, 08:13:20 PM

Just stopping by to report that I ordered a swathe of string quartets today at Presto, which is having a sale on Hyperion and Naive: the London Haydn Quartet doing Opp. 9 and 17, and Quatour Mosaiques doing Opp. 64 and 76. QM's recording of Op. 77 should be landing very soon--tomorrow I hope--as part of an earlier order. And I'm preparing another order that that will include Harnoncourt's manly Masses and his Orlando Paladino that Gurn suggested. And the Brilliant Symphony box which includes the Fischer Haydn symphonies is on its way to me. Quite a lot of listening I'm setting myself up for to start off 2012, it seems.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 18, 2011, 04:23:17 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on November 17, 2011, 07:17:19 PM
Yes, Gurn, equally enjoying your writings here at the Haus. ;D I've been a Haydn symphony admirer for years, but have explored so many areas of his compositions, thanks to the Haus, that my collection has grown to about 5 times its size.

Seen this Huss recording several times on this thread and finally purchased it...

[asin]B0042ZH8TA[/asin]

I've always immensely enjoyed No.60, but this is my first listen to No.12. These lively performances are given such great clarity within this recording. It was recommended to me and now I'm passing that recommendation along.

Glad you are enjoying the music. New music can also be "new to me" music! That is a very fine disk, I agree. And Symphony #12, which will be coming up "next year" (i.e. - tomorrow), is one of my early favorites. It has some interesting historical aspects, as well as being a fun listen. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 18, 2011, 04:25:07 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 17, 2011, 08:13:20 PM
Just stopping by to report that I ordered a swathe of string quartets today at Presto, which is having a sale on Hyperion and Naive: the London Haydn Quartet doing Opp. 9 and 17, and Quatour Mosaiques doing Opp. 64 and 76. QM's recording of Op. 77 should be landing very soon--tomorrow I hope--as part of an earlier order. And I'm preparing another order that that will include Harnoncourt's manly Masses and his Orlando Paladino that Gurn suggested. And the Brilliant Symphony box which includes the Fischer Haydn symphonies is on its way to me. Quite a lot of listening I'm setting myself up for to start off 2012, it seems.

Holy Cow! That's a big bunch of tunes there, Jeffrey! And a nice mix too, I might add. Curious what you think of the Harnoncourt masses. I haven't heard any of them, but the box has been lurking in the background. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on November 18, 2011, 08:55:43 AM

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51CZMRJRnLL._SY100_.jpg)

Popped this in the player at lunchtime and listened to the whole 2 CDs straight off. Gurn - this is a terrific set in so many ways:

1. In terms of performance, I love the variety - the switching from organ to harpsichord to fortepiano, each bringing its own distinctive flavour. She has a lovely touch on the harpsichord which, like the organ, I often struggle to like. No problems here. She plays like a rippling stream. A babbling brook.

2. As for the music - my goodness. I was really getting into the feel of the stuff by the second disc, and was very struck by the repeated gathering of forward momentum - the rock & roll feeling - that he achieves in some of the allegros. Another thing that strikes me in the slower movements is how he can suddenly turn a phrase into something that becomes almost unbearably sweet (sweet in a momentarily poignant way, not a sustained cloying one) for just a couple of notes, before moving on - as if he didn't want us to dally over it because there are other things to get on with, so come on. Then there seems to be a kind of inevitability about it, afterwards, even though it seems surprising at the moment while it's happening.

I couldn't actually say that any one of these concerti stuck out as somehow 'better' than another; they all seem delightful, and at £5 per disc, well: I'm going to be getting my money's worth from these. Many thanks for the recommendation.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 18, 2011, 10:02:32 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on November 18, 2011, 08:55:43 AM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51CZMRJRnLL._SY100_.jpg)

Popped this in the player at lunchtime and listened to the whole 2 CDs straight off. Gurn - this is a terrific set in so many ways:

1. In terms of performance, I love the variety - the switching from organ to harpsichord to fortepiano, each bringing its own distinctive flavour. She has a lovely touch on the harpsichord which, like the organ, I often struggle to like. No problems here. She plays like a rippling stream. A babbling brook.

2. As for the music - my goodness. I was really getting into the feel of the stuff by the second disc, and was very struck by the repeated gathering of forward momentum - the rock & roll feeling - that he achieves in some of the allegros. Another thing that strikes me in the slower movements is how he can suddenly turn a phrase into something that becomes almost unbearably sweet (sweet in a momentarily poignant way, not a sustained cloying one) for just a couple of notes, before moving on - as if he didn't want us to dally over it because there are other things to get on with, so come on. Then there seems to be a kind of inevitability about it, afterwards, even though it seems surprising at the moment while it's happening.

I couldn't actually say that any one of these concerti stuck out as somehow 'better' than another; they all seem delightful, and at £5 per disc, well: I'm going to be getting my money's worth from these. Many thanks for the recommendation.

You are more than welcome, Alan. In his own time, or possibly even today (not sure what's what today, about so many things),Haydn was known, and admired, for the sheer quality of his slow movements. You could say they were a specialty. My personal pleasure comes from his Andante's, which are mainly represented in his minuets and scherzos. But despite his more subtle approach, the beauty is undeniable by anyone who will listen. Clearly you did. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 18, 2011, 10:34:11 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on November 18, 2011, 08:55:43 AM
. . . She has a lovely touch on the harpsichord which, like the organ, I often struggle to like.

Interesting, Alan! It was not until I met a harpsichordist myself that my ears really keyed in (as it were) to the instrument's virtues, and variety. And now I can readily tell the difference between the harpsichord music of four or five Baroque composers, where earlier, it would all have sounded much the same to me . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on November 18, 2011, 12:16:09 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 18, 2011, 10:34:11 AM
Interesting, Alan! It was not until I met a harpsichordist myself that my ears really keyed in (as it were) to the instrument's virtues, and variety. And now I can readily tell the difference between the harpsichord music of four or five Baroque composers, where earlier, it would all have sounded much the same to me . . . .

Perception is a weird business, isn't it? I'm sure I can't tell the difference between different composers' approach to the instrument, but I am almost certain that this lunchtime, listening to Ms Schornsheim's Haydn, marks the first occasion where I've responded to the harpsichord without Beechamesque reservations, instead simply thinking 'Oh, how lovely'.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on November 18, 2011, 04:52:27 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 18, 2011, 04:25:07 AM
Holy Cow! That's a big bunch of tunes there, Jeffrey! And a nice mix too, I might add. Curious what you think of the Harnoncourt masses. I haven't heard any of them, but the box has been lurking in the background. :)

8)

Well, actually, there's been a slight change of plans. The manly Masses are still there, but Orlando Paladino has been taken out of the cart. Because...because today I decided to check out the Fort Lauderdale Barnes and Noble, and discovered they had some box sets they don't usually have--I suppose they're seeding them for the Christmas buying season.
And one of them was....
[asin]B002EPLGWU[/asin]
Minus the member discounts, 20 percent off coupon, etc. it came to about $54--a little higher than on Amazon Marketplace, but I figure that's what I paid for being able to have it in my hot little hands today.

And to go along with it
[asin]B0000057DU[/asin]

Now off to work tomorrow to earn the money to pay for them :)

Since the liner notes for the opera set are close to nonexistent (just cast listing, track listing and relatively brief synopses of the plots), it doesn't explain what the dozen or so detached arias (plus a terzett and a cantata) included to fill out two of the CDs actually are. I'm assuming they are arias Haydn wrote to be inserted in other people's operas. Would I be right?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 18, 2011, 05:15:17 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 18, 2011, 04:52:27 PM
Well, actually, there's been a slight change of plans. The manly Masses are still there, but Orlando Paladino has been taken out of the cart. Because...because today I decided to check out the Fort Lauderdale Barnes and Noble, and discovered they had some box sets they don't usually have--I suppose they're seeding them for the Christmas buying season.
And one of them was....
[asin]B002EPLGWU[/asin]
Minus the member discounts, 20 percent off coupon, etc. it came to about $54--a little higher than on Amazon Marketplace, but I figure that's what I paid for being able to have it in my hot little hands today.

And to go along with it
[asin]B0000057DU[/asin]

Now off to work tomorrow to earn the money to pay for them :)

Oh, Bravo!

In a masterpiece of timing, I decided to buy these 2 boxes at a great price (<>$40 EACH) about a month before that box was released. :-\

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnDoratiOperascover1.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnDoratiOperascover2.jpg)

There is no advantage to either one or the other version, since neither has the librettos, just that synopsis. Now, if you really wanted to pay some money and spend some time looking around for them, I understand that the original single-opera versions had the libretto on board. :'(

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardHadjimarkosclavichordcover.jpg) Marcia Hadjimarkos - Hob 16_44 Sonata in g for Keyboard 2nd mvmt - Allegretto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 18, 2011, 05:21:12 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 18, 2011, 04:52:27 PM
Well, actually, there's been a slight change of plans. The manly Masses are still there, but Orlando Paladino has been taken out of the cart. Because...because today I decided to check out the Fort Lauderdale Barnes and Noble, and discovered they had some box sets they don't usually have--I suppose they're seeding them for the Christmas buying season.
And one of them was....

Minus the member discounts, 20 percent off coupon, etc. it came to about $54--a little higher than on Amazon Marketplace, but I figure that's what I paid for being able to have it in my hot little hands today.

And to go along with it
[asin]B0000057DU[/asin]

Now off to work tomorrow to earn the money to pay for them :)

Since the liner notes for the opera set are close to nonexistent (just cast listing, track listing and relatively brief synopses of the plots), it doesn't explain what the dozen or so detached arias (plus a terzett and a cantata) included to fill out two of the CDs actually are. I'm assuming they are arias Haydn wrote to be inserted in other people's operas. Would I be right?

Oops, forgot to finish! ::)

Yes, you would be right, They are "insertion arias". Ordinarily, since arias are composed with a specific singer in mind (or were in the 18th century), if they decide to do an opera and they don't have a prima donna for example with that vocal range, then Haydn would write a new one to fit. Since they produced all sorts of operas at Esterhazy, not just Haydn's, this was an often-necessary phenomenon. That, and his mistress didn't have much range, and he frequently wrote arias just for her. ;)

I like that Pinnock disk, as I've mentioned here before. I think everyone should have one. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on November 19, 2011, 07:42:45 AM

.
[asin]B000E6G7CU[/asin]

Just recently purchased this disc, now giving me five recordings of Haydn's Seven Last Words...(2 Choral, 2 StringQ. & 1 Orchestral). This Accentus/Academy for Ancient Music Berlin performance clocks in at approximately 10 minutes faster than my other discs, the quicker tempos create a livelier atmosphere while never losing the dramatic tone. The sound is very intimate with a great balance between orchestra and the voices, this is an advantage I find over the other choral version I own (Harnoncourt/Concentus Musicus Wien), I haven't researched this but I'm wondering if the orchestral/choir numbers are smaller on this Naïve recording than with Harnoncourts. This piece continues to amaze me, and the fact that Haydn was successful in translating it to different formats is astonishing. This recording might leap the sting quartet version for my go-to version of Seven Last Words...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 19, 2011, 07:56:57 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on November 19, 2011, 07:42:45 AM
.
[asin]B000E6G7CU[/asin]

Just recently purchased this disc, now giving me five recordings of Haydn's Seven Last Words...(2 Choral, 2 StringQ. & 1 Orchestral). This Accentus/Academy for Ancient Music Berlin performance clocks in at approximately 10 minutes faster than my other discs, the quicker tempos create a livelier atmosphere while never losing the dramatic tone. The sound is very intimate with a great balance between orchestra and the voices, this is an advantage I find over the other choral version I own (Harnoncourt/Concentus Musicus Wien), I haven't researched this but I'm wondering if the orchestral/choir numbers are smaller on this Naïve recording than with Harnoncourts. This piece continues to amaze me, and the fact that Haydn was successful in translating it to different formats is astonishing. This recording might leap the sting quartet version for my go-to version of Seven Last Words...

Well, Greg. You probably need the fortepiano reduction now. I mean to close the circle. :D

BTW, I think the feeling of Equilbey's version as more "balanced" than Harnoncourt's version is probably an effect of the colla parte technique used by Equilbey. A complete explanation is included in the liner notes. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 19, 2011, 08:27:32 AM

Quote from: Bogey on November 13, 2011, 05:07:50 PM
I am surprised of how much it does not remind me of Klemperer. ;D Enjoyable.

Klemperer's Haydn and Mozart symphonies exhibit none of the stereotypical "Old Klemperer" idiosyncracies. His little G minor, for example, is blistering! Makes the HIPsters sound leaden in comparison.

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 13, 2011, 05:27:33 PM
I note they don't mention when it was recorded. I'm sure someone will tell us that the New PO makes it between 1970 and his death, or whatever the true facts are. :) Nice variety there of the late works.

Recording years:

88 - 1964
92 - 1971
95 - 1970
98 - 1960
100 - 1965
101 - 1960
102 - 1965
104 - 1964

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 19, 2011, 08:38:02 AM

There may not be any Haydn in my life for four days.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 19, 2011, 08:52:48 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 19, 2011, 08:38:02 AM
There may not be any Haydn in my life for four days.

Why?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 19, 2011, 09:03:05 AM

Traveling! Off to do some Henningmusick in Wooster.

But Cato & I shall meet ... perhaps some Haydn may grace mine ears after all.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 19, 2011, 09:11:33 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 19, 2011, 09:03:05 AM
Traveling! Off to do some Henningmusick in Wooster.

Ah, yes. I remember now. You'll be in Rock territory. Wish I could join you.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 19, 2011, 09:21:37 AM

We shall make a meeting happen another time!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on November 19, 2011, 09:24:59 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 19, 2011, 07:56:57 AM
Well, Greg. You probably need the fortepiano reduction now. I mean to close the circle. :D

Hi, Antoine
Yes, I definitely need the fortepiano version now, any suggestions?

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 19, 2011, 07:56:57 AM
BTW, I think the feeling of Equilbey's version as more "balanced" than Harnoncourt's version is probably an effect of the colla parte technique used by Equilbey. A complete explanation is included in the liner notes. :)

Just read the liner notes about colla parte, very interesting. Thanks a bunch, friend. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 19, 2011, 09:42:29 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on November 15, 2011, 04:26:08 AM
Seeking opinions on these too:
[asin]B001EQPD3I[/asin]........

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on November 19, 2011, 09:24:59 AM
Hi, Antoine
Yes, I definitely need the fortepiano version now, any suggestions?

Just read the liner notes about colla parte, very interesting. Thanks a bunch, friend. ;D

This box that chas and I were discussing the other night would probably be ideal, Greg. It not only has an excellent "7 Last Words" (which was not arranged by Haydn, but was approved by him before publication), but some very nice renditions of all the variations and such, of which I am personally quite fond. I haven't checked the price lately, but it was a real bargain for the last couple of years.

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardAdlamclavichordcover.jpg) Derek Adlam - Clavichord - Hob 17_06 Variations in F for Keyboard "Un Piccolo Divertimento"

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 19, 2011, 09:45:53 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 19, 2011, 08:27:32 AM
Klemperer's Haydn and Mozart symphonies exhibit none of the stereotypical "Old Klemperer" idiosyncracies. His little G minor, for example, is blistering! Makes the HIPsters sound leaden in comparison.

Recording years:

88 - 1964
92 - 1971
95 - 1970
98 - 1960
100 - 1965
101 - 1960
102 - 1965
104 - 1964

Sarge

Thanks for the info, Sarge. I freely admit I know less than nothing about that era of recording. I know a few of our compadres here in the Das Haus prefer earlier interpretive styles, and will benefit from this. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 19, 2011, 09:47:49 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 19, 2011, 08:38:02 AM
There may not be any Haydn in my life for four days.

A not insurmountable problem, Karl, but we will accept that you will be otherwise occupied and let you slide... for now. :D Have a great time with your presentation, hope you come back with a laurel wreath crown! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 19, 2011, 10:25:56 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on November 19, 2011, 09:24:59 AM
Hi, Antoine
Just read the liner notes about colla parte, very interesting. Thanks a bunch, friend. ;D

You're welcome, Greg!

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on November 19, 2011, 09:24:59 AM
Yes, I definitely need the fortepiano version now, any suggestions?

BTW, some time ago, I posted a chronology of the different versions of the Last Seven Words. I think it's still useful:

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 04, 2009, 04:21:18 PM
a) the original version for orchestra, frequently dated 1785, in other sources 1787;

b) the version for string quartet , completed before 21 June 1787, and made under Haydn's supervision.

c) the version for "Clavicembalo o Fortepiano", also referred as a "Piano Score" (in his letter of 21-6-1787) "selbst übersehen und corrigirt", i.e., also created under his supervision.

d) a version (perhaps even two) as a oratorio for soloists, chorus and orchestra, made by Joseph Friebert, music director of the Cathedral of Passau, 1792 (?).

e) an oratorio version made by Haydn himself, probably dating from 1795/1796.

Regarding the fortepiano version, I have the following recordings:

I. BART VAN OORT, fortepiano
Haydn – Klavierstücke (complete)
Fantasias
Variations Dances
The Seven Last Words
5 CDs

CD 5
The Seven Last Words
Die sieben letzten Worte unseres Erlösers am Kreuze Hob XX/2 (1787)
Fortepiano after Walter (ca. 1795) by Chris Maene (Ruiselede, 2000)
Recorded 10 May 2007, Hervormde Kerk, Rhoon, The Netherlands. DDD
Total timing 56:54
Brilliant Classics

II. RONALD BRAUTIGAM, fortepiano
Joseph Haydn – The Complete Music for Solo Keyboard
15 CDs

CD 15
(available as a single disc)

Die sieben letzten Worte unseres Erlosers am Kreuze
The Seven Last Words of the Saviour on the Cross
(Authorized keyboard arrangement of the orchestral work with the same title, Hob. XX:1, performed from a facsimile of the original edition)
Fortepiano by Paul McNulty, Amsterdam 1992, after A.G. Walter, ca. 1795
Recorded at the Lanna Church, Sweden, August 2002. DDD
Total timing 66:22
Bis

III. JAROSLAV TŮMA, fortepiano
Die sieben letzten Worte unseres Erlösers am Kreuze
The Seven Last Words of Christ (keyboard version)

Fortepiano, copy of Walter and sons, 1806 (Vienna)
Recording in Prague, August 30-31, 2003. SACD (Hybrid)
Total timing: 71:27
Praga Digitals

IV. JOS VAN IMMERSEEL, fortepiano
Sette sonate con un introduzione ed al fine un teremoto sopra le sette ultime parole del Nostro Redentore in Croce
Fortepiano Chrstopher Clarke, 1988. Cluny after Anton Walter, Vienna
Recording dates: 17/18 May 1994. DDD
Total timing 56:40
Channel Classics

All of them are excellent, but Brautigam is just superb. If just one, I would recommend Brautigam hands down, although any of the other versions will also be totally enjoyable.

I have the excellent complete set of John McCabe too, but his Last Seven Words are not the best achievement of his series.

I would also like to know a version on clavichord recorded by Aapo Häkkinen (Alba), but it's moderately hard to find.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 19, 2011, 12:00:31 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 19, 2011, 10:25:56 AM
You're welcome, Greg!

BTW, some time ago, I posted a chronology of the different versions of the Last Seven Words. I think it's still useful:

Regarding the fortepiano version, I have the following recordings:

I. BART VAN OORT, fortepiano
Haydn – Klavierstücke (complete)
Fantasias
Variations Dances
The Seven Last Words
5 CDs

CD 5
The Seven Last Words
Die sieben letzten Worte unseres Erlösers am Kreuze Hob XX/2 (1787)
Fortepiano after Walter (ca. 1795) by Chris Maene (Ruiselede, 2000)
Recorded 10 May 2007, Hervormde Kerk, Rhoon, The Netherlands. DDD
Total timing 56:54
Brilliant Classics

II. RONALD BRAUTIGAM, fortepiano
Joseph Haydn – The Complete Music for Solo Keyboard
15 CDs

CD 15
(available as a single disc)

Die sieben letzten Worte unseres Erlosers am Kreuze
The Seven Last Words of the Saviour on the Cross
(Authorized keyboard arrangement of the orchestral work with the same title, Hob. XX:1, performed from a facsimile of the original edition)
Fortepiano by Paul McNulty, Amsterdam 1992, after A.G. Walter, ca. 1795
Recorded at the Lanna Church, Sweden, August 2002. DDD
Total timing 66:22
Bis

III. JAROSLAV TŮMA, fortepiano
Die sieben letzten Worte unseres Erlösers am Kreuze
The Seven Last Words of Christ (keyboard version)

Fortepiano, copy of Walter and sons, 1806 (Vienna)
Recording in Prague, August 30-31, 2003. SACD (Hybrid)
Total timing: 71:27
Praga Digitals

IV. JOS VAN IMMERSEEL, fortepiano
Sette sonate con un introduzione ed al fine un teremoto sopra le sette ultime parole del Nostro Redentore in Croce
Fortepiano Chrstopher Clarke, 1988. Cluny after Anton Walter, Vienna
Recording dates: 17/18 May 1994. DDD
Total timing 56:40
Channel Classics

All of them are excellent, but Brautigam is just superb. If just one, I would recommend Brautigam hands down, although any of the other versions will also be totally enjoyable.

I have the excellent complete set of John McCabe too, but his Last Seven Words are not the best achievement of his series.

I would also like to know a version on clavichord recorded by Aapo Häkkinen (Alba), but it's moderately hard to find.

:)

Antoine,
The Immerseel and the Hakkinen are new to me. Is worth the time to find the Immerseel for myself? I already decided to look for the Hakkinen, since I have a lot of clavichord Haydn and would love to add that work. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 19, 2011, 12:26:54 PM

Anyone who is interested in the Hakkila '7 Last Words' on clavichord (Alba), I was able to get it here in the USA at ArkivMusik (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Drilldown?name_id1=103680&name_role1=2&bcorder=2&name_id=5170&name_role=1). It makes up for not being inexpensive by being available. No one else seemed to even list it!

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnPinnockSD6cover.jpg) The English Concert; Pinnock - Hob 01_045 Symphony in f# 2nd mvmt - Adagio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 19, 2011, 12:51:15 PM

Is that one of their cdr's, Gurn?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 19, 2011, 12:54:47 PM

Quote from: Bogey on November 19, 2011, 12:51:15 PM
Is that one of their cdr's, Gurn?

Nope, brand new factory disk from Alba. :) Are you a clavichord fan, Bill?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 19, 2011, 09:01:02 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 19, 2011, 12:00:31 PM
Antoine,
The Immerseel and the Hakkinen are new to me. Is worth the time to find the Immerseel for myself? I already decided to look for the Hakkinen, since I have a lot of clavichord Haydn and would love to add that work. :)

Gurn,
I think Immerseel is not a critical acquisition, if you have Brautigam, van Oort and Tuma. Technically it's very well played, of course, but I miss some emotional connection of Immerseel with this work.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 20, 2011, 08:53:48 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 19, 2011, 09:01:02 PM
Gurn,
I think Immerseel is not a critical acquisition, if you have Brautigam, van Oort and Tuma. Technically it's very well played, of course, but I miss some emotional connection of Immerseel with this work.

OK, thanks for that info, Antoine. So many disks out there, can't have them all (dammit!). :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 20, 2011, 09:28:08 AM

Part 12

1763

One of my earliest 'favorite years'. Some very nice music composed in 1763, and moving on into some previously untapped genres too. Prince Nicolaus' son got married, and his new wife, yet another of the famous Countesses Erdödy, turned out to be one of Haydn's big fans. Haydn's opera of the previous year, Acide, got its premiere to great acclaim. Life was certainly on the upswing.

Here is the music of 1763;

Hob 01_012 Symphony in E
   Apollo Ensemble / Hsu
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HidHyd.jpg)

Hob 01_013 Symphony in D
Hob 01_016 Symphony in Bb
Hob 01_072 Symphony in D
   The Hanover Band / Goodman
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Goodman13_16cover.jpg)

Hob 01_034 Symphony in d
Hob 01_040 Symphony in F
   Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HogwoodVol03cover.jpg)

Hob 02_01 Divertimento a cinque in G for Flute, Oboe & Strings
   Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss
Hob 02_11 Divertimento in C for Winds & Strings
   Divertimento Salzburg / Haselböck
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnEarlyDivertimenticover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHaselbckcover.jpg)

Hob 05_16 Divertimento á tre in C for 2 Violins & Bass
Hob 05_17 Divertimento á tre in Eb for 2 Violins & Bass
Hob 05_20 Divertimento á tre in G for 2 Violins & Bass
   Camerata Berolinensis
Hob 05_18 Divertimento á tre in Bb for 2 Violins & Bass
Hob 05_19 Divertimento á tre in E for 2 Violins & Bass
   Das Wiener Philharmonia Trio
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnStringTriosvol2cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Str3o1.jpg)

Hob 07a_01 Concerto in C for Violin
Hob 07a_03 Concerto in A for Violin
   The English Concert / Pinnock Standage
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/StandageVCcover-1.jpg)

Hob 07b_1 Concerto in C for Cello   La Petite Bande / Kuijken Suzuki
Hob 07b_1 Concerto in C for Cello   Tafelmusik / Lamon Bylsma
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/BylsmaHaydncover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/CelloSuzukicover.jpg)

Hob 23a_G 09 Motet "O coelitum beati"
   Tafelmusik / Bruno Weil
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnWeilMassesCompletecover.jpg)

Hob 23c_1 Te Deum in C
   Collegium musicum 90 - Richard Hickox
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Hickoxmasses.jpg)

Hob 24a_02 Cantata in G "Destatevi, o miei fidi"
   Cappella Coloniensis / A. Spering / VokalEnsemble Köln
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Esterhazycantatascover.jpg)

The lad was busy that year! IMO, the masterpiece of the year was the Cello Concerto #1. Written for his first chair cello and close friend Joseph Weigl, it was one of the very early Classical concertos that is still very much in the repertoire today. As you see, I have a couple of versions of it posted, since I simply can't choose between them. Yet another is that of Queyras with the Freibourg Baroque. A great enough work to merit several versions. :)

Also we find 2 violin concertos. The C major, numbered 1 here but actually the second, was also composed for an orchestra member, Luigi Tommasini. Haydn, Weigl and Tommasini all started with the Esterhazy Orchestra at the same time, and worked together for nearly 10 years. Coupled with the horn section, they made this as fine an orchestra as existed at the time, along with Mannheim, which had fr more personnel on call. Certainly the finest private orchestra, bar none.

Of the remainder, I am hoping we will discuss many of them. But I call your attention to Symphony in E major, Hob I:12. Certainly worth your consideration. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 20, 2011, 01:22:06 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 20, 2011, 09:28:08 AM
Part 12

I am going to have to catch the first eleven parts on dvd....where is part 1, Gurn?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 20, 2011, 01:58:56 PM

Quote from: Bogey on November 20, 2011, 01:22:06 PM
I am going to have to catch the first eleven parts on dvd....where is part 1, Gurn?

It's only 39 pages back, Bill (been nearly a month now! :o ), don't know why you couldn't just jump right to it! :D

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg570267.html#msg570267

Enjoy, there has been a lot of helpful comment along the way. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardOdiaga1cover.jpg) Lola Odiaga (Fortepiano) - Hob 16_49 Sonata #59 in Eb for Keyboard 3rd mvmt - Finale: Tempo di minuet

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 20, 2011, 04:13:48 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 20, 2011, 09:28:08 AM
Part 12

1763

Hob 07a_01 Concerto in C for Violin
Hob 07a_03 Concerto in A for Violin
The English Concert / Pinnock Standage
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/StandageVCcover-1.jpg)

I love the Violin Concerto in C major, but unfortunately I don't have that Pinocchio. My favorite version is performed by Wallfisch/OAE (Virgin). An excellent version of the "Melker" is delivered by Agustin Hadelich on Naxos (under Müller-Brühl/CChO) Anyway, we are quite lucky because today we have several versions of these works which was not the case some years ago.

BTW, Gurn, do you prefer 1763 for some particular reason? I mean frequently these concertos are dated around 1765; even I think the Concerto in C major was entered to the Haydn's catalogue that year (the famous annotation "fatto per il Luigi"). :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 20, 2011, 04:33:16 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 20, 2011, 04:13:48 PM
I love the Violin Concerto in C major, but unfortunately I don't have that Pinocchio. My favorite version is performed by Wallfisch/OAE (Virgin). An excellent version of the "Melker" is delivered by Agustin Hadelich on Naxos (under Müller-Brühl/CChO) Anyway, we are quite lucky because today we have several versions of these works which was not the case some years ago.

BTW, Gurn, do you prefer 1763 for some particular reason? I mean frequently these concertos are dated around 1765; even I think the Concerto in C major was entered to the Haydn's catalogue that year (the famous annotation "fatto per il Luigi"). :)

Well, you will soon have Standage playing it, although with a different orchestra, the Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss. It is on that Early Divertimentos set you ordered today. :) 15 years newer, but always fresh. In addition to those 2, I also have the Freiburg Baroque with Van der Goltz directing and playing solo violin. And Rachel Podger with the OAE / Beznosiuk. Another nice version! So you're right, lots of good versions out there, as there should be. I also have the Walffisch, now that I think about it! An embarrassment of riches!

Well, early on in this project, when I found out what I wide divergence there was in possible dating, I decided that right or wrong, I would use David Wyn Jones' "Oxford Composer Companion to Haydn" for any date that was offered in a range. This latest revision (the first edition was co-authored with Robbins-Landon) is supposed to be the latest and greatest. He lists the Violin Concerto #1 as "circa 1763 - (traditional date) 1769". So since I am nearly always more inclined to believe an earlier date than a later one, and since he started in 1762 with the horn concerto and 1763 with the cello concerto to give his virtuosos a vehicle, then I think he probably did the same for Tommasini. Anyway, there is my thought process, right or wrong. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 20, 2011, 04:44:42 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 20, 2011, 01:58:56 PM
It's only 39 pages back, Bill (been nearly a month now! :o ), don't know why you couldn't just jump right to it! :D

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg570267.html#msg570267

Enjoy, there has been a lot of helpful comment along the way. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardOdiaga1cover.jpg) Lola Odiaga (Fortepiano) - Hob 16_49 Sonata #59 in Eb for Keyboard 3rd mvmt - Finale: Tempo di minuet

I have been holding out for the 3-D release. Thanks!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 20, 2011, 04:49:06 PM

Quote from: Bogey on November 20, 2011, 04:44:42 PM
I have been holding out for the 3-D release. Thanks!

Don't sell me short, my friend; this is the 3D release! Blu-Ray too, all the latest and greatest as befits the top of the line. :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HussHaydnEarlyDivertimenticover.jpg) Haydn Sinfonietta Wien \ Huss - Hob 07a_01 Concerto in C for Violin 'Fatto per il Luigi' 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 20, 2011, 05:26:56 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 20, 2011, 04:33:16 PM
Well, you will soon have Standage playing it, although with a different orchestra, the Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss. It is on that Early Divertimentos set you ordered today. :) 15 years newer, but always fresh.

I wasn't aware about this. Great!

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 20, 2011, 04:33:16 PM
In addition to those 2, I also have the Freiburg Baroque with Van der Goltz directing and playing solo violin. And Rachel Podger with the OAE / Beznosiuk. Another nice version! So you're right, lots of good versions out there, as there should be. I also have the Walffisch, now that I think about it! An embarrassment of riches!

Well, we also have Guglielmo/L'Arte dell'Arco in the big box. It's embarrasing, but I bought this disc after purchasing the big box because I thought it was not included there. :-[ So now I have two copies.

I have von der Goltz/Freiburger Baroque Orchestra too and I think they really suck. I prefer - by far - Müller-Brühl and his people playing on modern instruments. BTW, his soloist Agustin Hadelich is a great violinist, who plays these concertos in the most virtuosistic way that I have heard. When I listen to those interpretations, I'm constantly thinking: "fatto per il luigi". ;D

In short, I would say: Wallfisch: beautiful tone and balance - Hadelich: impassioned and virtuosistic - Von der Goltz: boring - Guglielmo: chamber music.

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 20, 2011, 04:33:16 PM
Well, early on in this project, when I found out what I wide divergence there was in possible dating, I decided that right or wrong, I would use David Wyn Jones' "Oxford Composer Companion to Haydn" for any date that was offered in a range. This latest revision (the first edition was co-authored with Robbins-Landon) is supposed to be the latest and greatest. He lists the Violin Concerto #1 as "circa 1763 - (traditional date) 1769". So since I am nearly always more inclined to believe an earlier date than a later one, and since he started in 1762 with the horn concerto and 1763 with the cello concerto to give his virtuosos a vehicle, then I think he probably did the same for Tommasini. Anyway, there is my thought process, right or wrong. :)

It sounds just perfect to me, as all these dates are extremely uncertain and debatable.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 20, 2011, 05:45:01 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 20, 2011, 05:26:56 PM
I wasn't aware about this. Great!

Well, we also have Guglielmo/L'Arte dell'Arco in the big box. It's embarrasing, but I bought this disc after purchasing the big box because I thought it was not included there. :-[ So now I have two copies.

I have von der Goltz/Freiburger Baroque Orchestra too and I think they really suck. I prefer - by far - Müller-Brühl and his people playing on modern instruments. BTW, his soloist Agustin Hadelich is a great violinist, who plays these concertos in the most virtuosistic way that I have heard. When I listen to those interpretations, I'm constantly thinking: "fatto per il luigi". ;D

Yes, now for the last few years, Standage is the Concertmaster of this band. I think the combination of him and Huss is a great one. I just listened to that version since your last post and liked it more than ever! I also listened to Van der Goltz, have to agree with you there. Relatively speaking, the orchestra provides nearly all the excitement (they can't help it, good band). I don't really care though, I bought that disk for the symphonies that are on it (49 & mostly 80) and they don't disappoint! I really must take out that Walffisch disk and listen, it has been a long time since I did so. I do like her playing a lot though, she is very fine in so many ways. Same with the Podger, which I got for the Mozart Sinfonia Concertante. She is another top fiddler and with a good group. :)

QuoteIn short, I would say: Wallfisch: beautiful tone and balance - Hadelich: impassioned and virtuosistic - Von der Goltz: boring - Guglielmo: chamber music.

I shall hold you to that. :D

QuoteIt sounds just perfect to me, as all these dates are extremely uncertain and debatable.

:)

The dating aspect of Haydn is one of the most difficult things to get right. He was no help, often not writing anything down, and also so many of his autographs got destroyed by fire or simply given away. It is little help when many places only give a date like "Before 1766". Well, that is a large time span! I still have a folder in there of some works that are certainly genuine, but there is not even an offered idea of a date. Since I sort everything by date, that leaves a gap or two in the system! :-\

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/FesteticsOp7677cover.jpg) Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03_77 Quartet in C for Strings Op 76 #3 3rd mvmt - Menuet: Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 20, 2011, 05:56:45 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 20, 2011, 05:45:01 PM
Yes, now for the last few years, Standage is the Concertmaster of this band. I think the combination of him and Huss is a great one. I just listened to that version since your last post and liked it more than ever!

Excellent! It's an unexpected bonus. Anyway, I need to wait some three or four weeks. You know, the problems of living in this ultima Thule. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 21, 2011, 04:31:57 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 20, 2011, 05:56:45 PM
Excellent! It's an unexpected bonus. Anyway, I need to wait some three or four weeks. You know, the problems of living in this ultima Thule. :)

And here I thought that Texas was the end of the world! As we say here, it isn't the world's rectum, however, you can see that from here. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 21, 2011, 07:54:11 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 19, 2011, 12:26:54 PM
Anyone who is interested in the Hakkila '7 Last Words' on clavichord (Alba), I was able to get it here in the USA at ArkivMusik (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Drilldown?name_id1=103680&name_role1=2&bcorder=2&name_id=5170&name_role=1). It makes up for not being inexpensive by being available. No one else seemed to even list it!

Hey Gurn - been away several times & doing some house remodeling so not as much on the computer, but now back! :)

Will go through your last few temporal installments shortly, but the disc above peaked my interest - I am quite fond of the clavichord but have only a small collection (including Tuma doing Bach's WTC I & II on the instrument - on the Arta label) - short but excellent review HERE (http://www.allmusic.com/album/haydn-the-seven-last-words-w182209) of the Hakkanen performance w/ comments made on excellent liner notes; and I love the cover art (my favorite painting of the Crucifixion by Grunewald)!

Now, the disc is available from ClassicsOnline (HERE (http://www.classicsonline.com/catalogue/product.aspx?pid=823169) for half the price but MP3 files plus no booklet? Will try to decide today which route to go? Dave

(http://image.allmusic.com/00/acg/cov200/cm600/m623/m62355codtk.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 21, 2011, 08:30:56 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 20, 2011, 09:28:08 AM
Part 12 - 1763

Hob 07a_01 Concerto in C for Violin
Hob 07a_03 Concerto in A for Violin
   The English Concert / Pinnock Standage
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/StandageVCcover-1.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51o7QZia8ML._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Hob 07b_1 Concerto in C for Cello   La Petite Bande / Kuijken Suzuki
Hob 07b_1 Concerto in C for Cello   Tafelmusik / Lamon Bylsma
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/BylsmaHaydncover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/CelloSuzukicover.jpg)

The lad was busy that year! IMO, the masterpiece of the year was the Cello Concerto #1. Written for his first chair cello and close friend Joseph Weigl, it was one of the very early Classical concertos that is still very much in the repertoire today. As you see, I have a couple of versions of it posted, since I simply can't choose between them. Yet another is that of Queyras with the Freibourg Baroque. A great enough work to merit several versions. :)

I enjoy the Cello & Violin Concertos - own the 2 cello discs shown above; also have Miklos Perenyi w/ the Liszt Ferrenc CO (Rolla) in the 7 disc 'Cello Concertos' Brilliant box - not sure I'm as happy w/ those latter performances - will do some back-to-back comparisons this afternoon!

For the violin works, just have 1 disc - Guglielmo and his group (pic added above) - enjoy & recommended - period performances and some quite good reviews, one reprinted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=300547) for those interested; guess that I could use 'another' version of the violin concertos - will add to my wish list! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on November 21, 2011, 10:22:07 AM

Hi Gurn, and all! I am catching up here this morning, on the last day of my Honeymoon :-* I've been away cause I just got Married! :-* Now, settling in back home and getting ready for returning to work tomorrow :'(

I'm excited to hear Haydn's violin concertos for the first time later today (the Standage/Pinnock account), since I love the cello concertos so much. I'm also hearing the early Esterhazy symphonies from my new Haydn (Dennis Russell Davies account) box and enjoying those immensely.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 21, 2011, 10:33:35 AM

Quote from: Leo K on November 21, 2011, 10:22:07 AM
Hi Gurn, and all! I am catching up here this morning, on the last day of my Honeymoon :-* I've been away cause I just got Married! :-* Now, settling in back home and getting ready for returning to work tomorrow :'(

8)

Oh! Congratulations! That is wonderful news! I guess you weren't Haydn the news! :) (That makes it on topic you see! :) )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 21, 2011, 10:48:06 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on November 21, 2011, 07:54:11 AM
Hey Gurn - been away several times & doing some house remodeling so not as much on the computer, but now back! :)

Will go through your last few temporal installments shortly, but the disc above peaked my interest - I am quite fond of the clavichord but have only a small collection (including Tuma doing Bach's WTC I & II on the instrument - on the Arta label) - short but excellent review HERE (http://www.allmusic.com/album/haydn-the-seven-last-words-w182209) of the Hakkanen performance w/ comments made on excellent liner notes; and I love the cover art (my favorite painting of the Crucifixion by Grunewald)!

Now, the disc is available from ClassicsOnline (HERE (http://www.classicsonline.com/catalogue/product.aspx?pid=823169) for half the price but MP3 files plus no booklet? Will try to decide today which route to go? Dave

(http://image.allmusic.com/00/acg/cov200/cm600/m623/m62355codtk.jpg)

Hey, Dave!

I noted your absence, good to see you back for a while (maybe).

I have been really listening to a lot of Klavier in recent years, I've got to where I prefer it to most other keyboard instruments. ::)

I buy all my Haydn disks. Many others I am happy with the MP3's...

You're right, that's a great painting. First time I've seen the cover, that'll be nice to have on the shelf. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 21, 2011, 10:54:44 AM

Quote from: Leo K on November 21, 2011, 10:22:07 AM
Hi Gurn, and all! I am catching up here this morning, on the last day of my Honeymoon :-* I've been away cause I just got Married! :-* Now, settling in back home and getting ready for returning to work tomorrow :'(

I'm excited to hear Haydn's violin concertos for the first time later today (the Standage/Pinnock account), since I love the cello concertos so much. I'm also hearing the early Esterhazy symphonies from my new Haydn (Dennis Russell Davies account) box and enjoying those immensely.
8)

Congratulations, Leo! I knew that was coming up, but I guess I lost track of time. Good thing you didn't! :D

Some good listening coming your way then. I feel like a couple of the VC's are more on the Baroque side than the Classical, but let's be honest, there was no Classical VC role model in existence at the time, so it had to start somewhere. But the C major has some great work for the soloist, it's a great start for a tradition. :) When you get to Symphony #12, give it a good listen. It is particularly nice among the early ones. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 21, 2011, 10:56:53 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on November 21, 2011, 08:30:56 AM
I enjoy the Cello & Violin Concertos - own the 2 cello discs shown above; also have Miklos Perenyi w/ the Liszt Ferrenc CO (Rolla) in the 7 disc 'Cello Concertos' Brilliant box - not sure I'm as happy w/ those latter performances - will do some back-to-back comparisons this afternoon!

For the violin works, just have 1 disc - Guglielmo and his group (pic added above) - enjoy & recommended - period performances and some quite good reviews, one reprinted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=300547) for those interested; guess that I could use 'another' version of the violin concertos - will add to my wish list! :)

Dave, you mentioned a couple of weeks ago that you were considering the Huss Divertimento set. If you indeed go that way, there is a very nice VC #1 in there, played by Standage. That may be all you need, along with the Guglielmo. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 21, 2011, 12:07:55 PM

This afternoon I listened to the Last Seven Words performed on clavichord by Aapo Häkkinen, via NML. Wow! What an intimate, painful version. It's really mandatory for every good Haydnian. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 21, 2011, 12:13:11 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 21, 2011, 12:07:55 PM
This afternoon I listened to the Last Seven Words performed on clavichord by Aapo Häkkinen, via NML. Wow! What an intimate, painful version. It's really mandatory for every good Haydnian. :)

I can scarcely wait to get mine. You make it all the more alluring, Antoine! :) The whole concept of 7 adagios played on a clavichord just appeals at a deeper level. I can see Haydn composing them, that's what he used when he composed, the clavier next to his desk. So despite that the 'official' arrangement was only 'approved by' Haydn, still, they were played on a clavier long before that day ever came. 0:)

Haydnisto Gurn
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 21, 2011, 01:57:47 PM

Quote from: Leo K on November 21, 2011, 10:22:07 AM
Hi Gurn, and all! I am catching up here this morning, on the last day of my Honeymoon :-* I've been away cause I just got Married! :-* Now, settling in back home and getting ready for returning to work tomorrow :'(

HEY LEO! Congratulations on your wedding! Sorry about the letdown of returning to work - :(

Susan (i.e. Harpo) & I honeymooned in Bermuda for a week in July (way back in 1970 - WOW!) - coming back we returned to Ann Arbor, MI to start my 4th year in medical school, so not work but a HELL of a change!

Best wishes & good luck to both of you! Dave :D

(http://www.higreetings.com/resource/picture/Wedding/Congratulations/1kb759f167ce.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 21, 2011, 02:05:29 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 21, 2011, 10:56:53 AM
Dave, you mentioned a couple of weeks ago that you were considering the Huss Divertimento set. If you indeed go that way, there is a very nice VC #1 in there, played by Standage. That may be all you need, along with the Guglielmo. :)

Gurn & Antoine - I went ahead and ordered the 'regular' CD of the clavichord version of the '7 LWords' - could not resist that cover art nor the description of the booklet notes by the performer - as suggested by Gurn, purchased from ArkivMusic (added some more discs on my list to averaged out the shipping charge).

Already obtained the Huss Divertimenti set (have not checked back on this thread but may have mentioned it already - this thread is going at a fast pace!) - agree that it is an excellent recording and have enjoyed multiple listenings already! Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 21, 2011, 02:54:16 PM

Quote from: Leo K on November 21, 2011, 10:22:07 AM
Hi Gurn, and all! I am catching up here this morning, on the last day of my Honeymoon :-* I've been away cause I just got Married! :-* Now, settling in back home and getting ready for returning to work tomorrow :'(

Congratulations, Leo! All the best for you and your wife in the years to come. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on November 21, 2011, 03:29:00 PM

Quote from: Leo K on November 21, 2011, 10:22:07 AM
Hi Gurn, and all! I am catching up here this morning, on the last day of my Honeymoon :-* I've been away cause I just got Married! :-* Now, settling in back home and getting ready for returning to work tomorrow :'(
8)

Congrats, Leo!

Your namesake
<<--------------- (Leo),
wishes the two of you a long life of kibble and bellyrubs together. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on November 21, 2011, 06:20:44 PM

Sincere Thanks to you all for the good tidings! My wife enjoyed your messages too!

Speaking of The Last Seven Words, I am just getting to know this work through the original orchestral version on the Jordi Savall account (his second recording of it) recorded in the original venue! This is a sublime work indeed. Seven adagios! As a fan of Haydn's adagio movements I think I am in heaven. WOW.

I MUST check out the clavichord account from Hakkinen! I will probably download it from the site that Dave linked us to.

I have the choral version (Harnoncourt) and a harpsichord version (Rosana Lanzelotte)in my collection but haven't listened yet because I wanted to hear the orchestral version first, and I found the Savall account and got it immediately :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 21, 2011, 06:28:21 PM

Quote from: Leo K on November 21, 2011, 06:20:44 PM
Sincere Thanks to you all for the good tidings! My wife enjoyed your messages too!

Speaking of The Last Seven Words, I am just getting to know this work through the original orchestral version on the Jordi Savall account (his second recording of it) recorded in the original venue! This is a sublime work indeed. Seven adagios! As a fan of Haydn's adagio movements I think I am in heaven. WOW.

I MUST check out the clavichord account from Hakkinen! I will probably download it from the site that Dave linked us to.

I have the choral version (Harnoncourt) and a harpsichord version (Rosana Lanzelotte)in my collection but haven't listened yet because I wanted to hear the orchestral version first, and I found the Savall account and got it immediately :)

Best wishes to your lovely lady, Leo. Possibly she will become a great Haydnista one day. :)

Interesting, I hadn't heard a harpsichord version either. Of course, they were still around by 1787, but getting thin on the ground. Clavichords stuck around a bit longer since they were such useful tools for composers. Sadly they, too, disappeared within a few years. Possibly as a last acquisition in this particular work, you will want to hear the string quartet version. That was actually my introduction to it. It doesn't have the powerful pathos of the orchestral version, but it is nonetheless very satisfactory. :)

Cheers!
8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/FesteticsOp7677cover.jpg) Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03_83 Quartet in d for Strings Op 103 3rd mvmt - Menuet ma non troppo presto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on November 21, 2011, 06:33:36 PM

Thanks Gurn!

By the way, this is the harpsichord recording I found as a download online (an out of print disk):

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51E6Ci0Dl+L.jpg)

Seems interesting and will listen soon :)

I am excited to hear that Hakkinen too though ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 21, 2011, 06:43:40 PM

Quote from: Leo K on November 21, 2011, 06:33:36 PM
Thanks Gurn!

By the way, this is the harpsichord recording I found as a download online (an out of print disk):

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51E6Ci0Dl+L.jpg)

Seems interesting and will listen soon :)

I am excited to hear that Hakkinen too though ;)

Yes, it does seem interesting. I will cast about for it. One never knows. I didn't expect to find Hakkinen either, and yet... :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/LArchTrioscover.jpg) Robert Levin; Vera Beths; Anner Bylsma - Hob 15_27 Trio #43 in C for Piano & Strings 1st mvmt - Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 21, 2011, 06:48:14 PM

Here it's possible to hear three complete movements of the version on cravo mentioned by Leo:

http://www.lanzelotte.com/cd/haydn.htm

It's the webpage of Rosana Lanzelotte. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on November 21, 2011, 07:15:26 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 21, 2011, 12:07:55 PM
This afternoon I listened to the Last Seven Words performed on clavichord by Aapo Häkkinen, via NML. Wow! What an intimate, painful version. It's really mandatory for every good Haydnian. :)

Looks as if Häkkinen's is available only through ArkivMusic in the US, couldn't find it elsewhere, I'm very intrigued to hear it..... I spent much time going through samples from Bart Van Oort and Ronald Brautigam recordings of The Seven Last Words... and swayed toward the Brautigam. I know it's only 90-second samples, but based on those alone I found a certain level of emotion from Brautigam's fortepiano that felt close to the sustaining ability of the choral and SQ versions I've grown to love.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on November 21, 2011, 11:16:11 PM

Quote from: Leo K on November 21, 2011, 10:22:07 AM
I am catching up here this morning, on the last day of my Honeymoon :-* I've been away cause I just got Married! :-* Now, settling in back home and getting ready for returning to work tomorrow

Congratulations Leo! Best of luck to you both.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 22, 2011, 04:56:59 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on November 21, 2011, 11:16:11 PM
Congratulations Leo! Best of luck to you both.

Indeed, indeed! We celebrate our 20th this summer. Enjoy every moment as it flies by.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on November 22, 2011, 06:24:27 AM

Sincere Thanks Elgarian and Bogey!

Was listening to the Standage/Pinnock disk of Haydn's violin concertos last night and really enjoying the violin concerto in C, and can't wait to hear more soon!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 22, 2011, 06:43:51 AM

Starting the morning with #88 on vinyl:

(http://www.ambergreen-classical.co.uk/ekmps/shops/padmagupta/images/jochum.haydn-symphony-no-88.138-823-8564-p.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 22, 2011, 07:10:08 AM

Flipped the platter over to #98....outstanding in sound, pace, and melding.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 22, 2011, 07:21:34 AM

Hey Sarge, who is you hardcore-far from HIP-let's make this music sing romantic-pre 90's- Haydn conductor? ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 22, 2011, 07:35:45 AM

Quote from: Bogey on November 22, 2011, 07:21:34 AM
Hey Sarge, who is you hardcore-far from HIP-let's make this music sing romantic-pre 90's- Haydn conductor? ;D

Toss-up between Lenny and Colin Davis.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 22, 2011, 07:44:51 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 22, 2011, 07:35:45 AM
Toss-up between Lenny and Colin Davis.

Sarge

I haven't heard Jochum in Haydn, but I like him in whatever else (Beethoven in particular). Never was a Colin Davis fan... :-\ Now Lenny! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 22, 2011, 07:51:05 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 22, 2011, 07:35:45 AM
Toss-up between Lenny and Colin Davis.

Sarge

I have Davis for 93, 94, and 96....no Lenny on the shelf. Hmmmm, any Lenny efforts in particular, Sarge? Gurn?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 22, 2011, 07:56:51 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 22, 2011, 07:44:51 AM
I haven't heard Jochum in Haydn, but I like him in whatever else (Beethoven in particular). Never was a Colin Davis fan... :-\ Now Lenny! :)

8)

20 bones at Amazon:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41wqACuwESL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 22, 2011, 08:10:01 AM

Quote from: Bogey on November 22, 2011, 07:51:05 AM
I have Davis for 93, 94, and 96....no Lenny on the shelf. Hmmmm, any Lenny efforts in particular, Sarge? Gurn?

Lenny's 84, 88, and 99 are particular favorites.

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 22, 2011, 07:44:51 AM
Never was a Colin Davis fan... :-\

>:(

Davis's 82 and 83, with the Concertgebouw, are desert island material...my desert island anyway 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 22, 2011, 08:15:09 AM

Quote from: Bogey on November 22, 2011, 07:51:05 AM
I have Davis for 93, 94, and 96....no Lenny on the shelf. Hmmmm, any Lenny efforts in particular, Sarge? Gurn?

One of the best Haydn symphony disks ever!

[asin]B00000E2WJ[/asin]

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/61zWFcp4hZL.jpg)

(hate when that happens >:( )

This IS desert island, even mine! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 22, 2011, 08:17:47 AM

Wait....that bottom cover of Lenny looks familiar....stand by....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 22, 2011, 08:22:30 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 22, 2011, 08:15:09 AM
One of the best Haydn symphony disks ever!
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/61zWFcp4hZL.jpg)
This IS desert island, even mine! :)

8)

I like it too. Someday I'm going to have to compare it with the earlier NY recording.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 22, 2011, 08:22:47 AM

Found a handful misfiled....have Davis for 91, 92, 93, 94, 96 AND that 82, 83 with the bear and hen on it, Sarge!

Also netted the Lenny you showed, Gurn. My Haydn is on a bottom shelf and pretty dark down there. I need to buy more Beethoven to push it to the top of the next shelf. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 22, 2011, 08:25:10 AM

Quote from: Bogey on November 22, 2011, 08:22:47 AM
Found a handful misfiled....that 82, 83 with the bear and hen on it, Sarge!

Cool. Since you already have it, I won't be blamed if you hate it :D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 22, 2011, 08:26:25 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 22, 2011, 08:25:10 AM

Cool. Since you already have it, I won't be blamed if you hate it :D

Sarge

Naw....love Davis. Like a wall of music. I especially enjoy his Nelson Mass.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on November 22, 2011, 10:38:20 AM

Quote from: Bogey on November 22, 2011, 07:56:51 AM
20 bones at Amazon:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41wqACuwESL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I have this set on vinyl but never ventured to place it on the turntable yet, I will fix that ASAP 8)

Once in a while I still love to hear my Bernsteins and Sir Thomas Beechums Haydn LPs :-*

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on November 22, 2011, 10:40:21 AM

Quote from: Bogey on November 22, 2011, 08:26:25 AM
Let me take you down, 'cause I'm goin' to, Esterházy fields

LOL love your signature Bogey 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on November 22, 2011, 02:03:56 PM

I tried buying the Hakkenin recording on Classics Online but my download never showed up, and costumer service is so slow :'( yikes I hope they respond some time, 10 bucks is worth two Happy Meals!

Anyways, at least I have Brautigan's account to tide me over until I can hear the clavichord version :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on November 22, 2011, 04:11:35 PM

Quote from: Leo K on November 22, 2011, 02:03:56 PM
I tried buying the Hakkenin recording on Classics Online but my download never showed up, and costumer service is so slow :'( yikes I hope they respond some time, 10 bucks is worth two Happy Meals!

Anyways, at least I have Brautigan's account to tide me over until I can hear the clavichord version :)

I started to listen to it on Naxos Music Library but did not find it very good. Too much music for that instrument, imo.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 22, 2011, 04:17:11 PM

Quote from: Arnold on November 22, 2011, 04:11:35 PM
I started to listen to it on Naxos Music Library but did not find it very good. Too much music for that instrument, imo.

:)

Not having heard it yet, I can't comment, but I will say that this is what I fear. Reviewers say otherwise, but as I said to Antoine, that earthquake should be a real handful on the clavier!! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 22, 2011, 05:53:28 PM

Purchases Today (transplanted :D )

Just received these 2 in today's post. Listening to the symphonies now;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSymphony414449Arioncover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnBarytonTriosRicercarcover.jpg)

I had seen reviews of these here and there, enough to pique my curiosity. The Arion Baroque, led here by harpsichordist Gary Cooper, are indeed a 'real size' ensemble, in this case employing 17 musicians, which is very likely to be the precise number in the Esterhazy band at the time these works were composed (1768-71). Despite Mr. Hogwood's protestations, Cooper plays a harpsichord continuo. The justification for using a 3rd viola comes from Haydn's famous written instructions for the performance of the cantata "Applausus" from 1767, in which he urges the use of an extra viola to support the inner (instrumental) voices which frequently need it more than the upper and lower ones. In addition, since trumpets and timpani were only added on at the time of publication and didn't exist in the original autograph score of #41, they aren't used here in it either. The result is rather stunning actually. Whereas in every version (many!) that I've heard, one must struggle to pick out the amazing C maj Alto horns from the trumpets, here they stand out in a stark beauty that must be heard to be appreciated. I must admit, I am absolutely delighted so far (though still only in #44, another winner!). This is very HIP, unless you already really like PI and all it can do, you may be brought up short when you first hear it, esp. #41. :)

The baryton trio disk (well, I needed another one :D ) promises, by all I've read, to also be a winner. The barytonist, Balestracci, is reputed to be an actual virtuoso on the instrument. How rare is that? We'll see shortly. The liner notes were highly interesting with a brief discussion of actually playing the instrument. I can't remember any baryton disk that went that direction before. Hope it lives up to my expectations, I'll let you know tomorrow. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSymphony414449Arioncover.jpg) Arion Baroque Orchestra \ Gary Cooper - Hob 01_044 Symphony in e 3rd mvmt - Adagio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on November 22, 2011, 05:55:04 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 22, 2011, 04:17:11 PM
Not having heard it yet, I can't comment, but I will say that this is what I fear. Reviewers say otherwise, but as I said to Antoine, that earthquake should be a real handful on the clavier!! :)

8)

I heard samples of it, and it sounds great, but I'll need to hear the complete recording to comment too 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 22, 2011, 05:57:18 PM

Quote from: Leo K on November 22, 2011, 05:55:04 PM
I heard samples of it, and it sounds great, but I'll need to hear the complete recording to comment too 8)

I can visualize the poor lad crippling up in the terremoto section. :D Well, soon enough I'll/we'll know.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on November 22, 2011, 06:04:46 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 22, 2011, 05:53:28 PM
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSymphony414449Arioncover.jpg)

I have them on this, which I like a lot:

[asin]B0007XSVR4[/asin]

I would like to have them playing some Haydn.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 22, 2011, 06:10:12 PM

Quote from: Arnold on November 22, 2011, 06:04:46 PM
I have them on this, which I like a lot:

[asin]B0007XSVR4[/asin]

I would like to have them playing some Haydn.

:)

Strongly recommended, Arnold. I am now listening to the beautiful extended Adagio opening movement of #49 in f and it is truly special. 0:)

[asin]B001OBT3LG[/asin]

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSymphony414449Arioncover.jpg) Arion Baroque Orchestra \ Gary Cooper - Hob 01_049 Symphony in f 1st mvmt - Adagio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 23, 2011, 04:43:07 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 22, 2011, 04:17:11 PM
Not having heard it yet, I can't comment, but I will say that this is what I fear. Reviewers say otherwise, but as I said to Antoine, that earthquake should be a real handful on the clavier!! :)

8)

I usually enjoy the clavier, pianoforte, and especially the harpsichord when they are the seasoning in the stew. When they become the meat I am usually not pleased.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2011, 05:26:38 AM

Quote from: Bogey on November 23, 2011, 04:43:07 AM
I usually enjoy the clavier, pianoforte, and especially the harpsichord when they are the seasoning in the stew. When they become the meat I am usually not pleased.

It's an acquired taste for most people, I think. I was fortunate enough to be born with it though thousands aren't. Still there are limitations on everything. We can only wait and see, in my case since I don't stream online music. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 23, 2011, 05:38:12 AM

Just landed from Amazon.it (although the package is marked Amazon.uk):

(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/hungarotonhcd41001.jpg)

Original releases in jewel cases. :)

Now playing Vol. 1, CD2: String Quartet in E flat major Op. 1 No. "0" Hob. II:6. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 23, 2011, 05:50:08 AM

Quote from: Bogey on November 23, 2011, 04:43:07 AM
I usually enjoy the clavier, pianoforte, and especially the harpsichord when they are the seasoning in the stew. When they become the meat I am usually not pleased.

My taste exactly.

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 23, 2011, 05:26:38 AM
I was fortunate enough to be born with it though thousands aren't.

Sadly, I am one who was born without the harpsichord gene. A pity that.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2011, 05:55:27 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 23, 2011, 05:50:08 AM
My taste exactly.

Sadly, I am one who was born without the harpsichord gene. A pity that.

Sarge

When I was an early teenager, which is to say, back in the mid-1960's, my aunt and uncle purchased an actual, real harpsichord. Looking back now, I see how rare that must have been, but at the time I just thought it was absolutely cool! I piddled with keyboards somewhat back then (we had an electronic, 2 manual organ at home) and I was totally enraptured by the sounds that came out of that thing. Possibly this is where my enjoyment arose. Anyway, I can fairly say that I have always liked the harpsichord. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 23, 2011, 06:03:53 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 23, 2011, 05:38:12 AM
Just landed from Amazon.it (although the package is marked Amazon.uk):

(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/hungarotonhcd41001.jpg)

Original releases in jewel cases. :)

Now playing Vol. 1, CD2: String Quartet in E flat major Op. 1 No. "0" Hob. II:6. :)

(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-dance013.gif)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 23, 2011, 06:04:49 AM

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/aug11/haydn7lastbr_ggen.jpg)

Quote from: Bogey on November 23, 2011, 05:11:56 AM
Interesting cover there, Sarge. Report on the Haydn thread when you have a review so I do not miss it.

Taken from the listening thread:

Excellent performance of the Haydn as one would expect from Brüggen (hard to imagine a more powerful earthquake)--but, unfortunately, marred by the inclusion of short, dissonant intermezzi between movements composed by Ron Ford; music inexplicably commissioned by Brüggen to fill in for spoken words. It's about as far from HIP as can be imagined. The intermezzi are not tracked separately and can't be avoided. I'm deeply puzzled by this messing about with the work. Brüggen's reasoning makes no sense. The booklet quotes him as saying, "The intermezzi are meant to be a worthy musical substitute for no music." Huh?

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 23, 2011, 06:11:59 AM

Quote from: Bogey on November 23, 2011, 06:03:53 AM
(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-dance013.gif)

(http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-dance011.gif)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on November 23, 2011, 06:12:10 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 23, 2011, 05:55:27 AM
When I was an early teenager, which is to say, back in the mid-1960's, my aunt and uncle purchased an actual, real harpsichord. Looking back now, I see how rare that must have been, but at the time I just thought it was absolutely cool! I piddled with keyboards somewhat back then (we had an electronic, 2 manual organ at home) and I was totally enraptured by the sounds that came out of that thing. Possibly this is where my enjoyment arose. Anyway, I can fairly say that I have always liked the harpsichord. :)

8)

We form that rare strain which is resistant to Beechamisms. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2011, 06:13:18 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 23, 2011, 05:38:12 AM
Just landed from Amazon.it (although the package is marked Amazon.uk):

(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/t_200/hungarotonhcd41001.jpg)

Original releases in jewel cases. :)

Now playing Vol. 1, CD2: String Quartet in E flat major Op. 1 No. "0" Hob. II:6. :)

Interested in a summary report, Antoine. The good, the bad and the ugly! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2011, 06:14:38 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on November 23, 2011, 06:12:10 AM
We form that rare strain which is resistant to Beechamisms. ;D

Although we can safely laugh at him. :D Tin roofs be damned!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on November 23, 2011, 06:15:42 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 23, 2011, 06:14:38 AM
Although we can safely laugh at him. :D Tin roofs be damned!

8)

Oh, yes! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 23, 2011, 06:23:56 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 23, 2011, 06:04:49 AM
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/aug11/haydn7lastbr_ggen.jpg)

Taken from the listening thread:

Excellent performance of the Haydn as one would expect from Brüggen (hard to imagine a more powerful earthquake)--but, unfortunately, marred by the inclusion of short, dissonant intermezzi between movements composed by Ron Ford; music inexplicably commissioned by Brüggen to fill in for spoken words. It's about as far from HIP as can be imagined. The intermezzi are not tracked separately and can't be avoided. I'm deeply puzzled by this messing about with the work. Brüggen's reasoning makes no sense. The booklet quotes him as saying, "The intermezzi are meant to be a worthy musical substitute for no music." Huh?
Sarge

It is one thing to interpret....even guess what the composer would have tried with new instrumentation....but to just do your own thing because you are "feeling it"....nope.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 23, 2011, 06:27:35 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 23, 2011, 06:13:18 AM
Interested in a summary report, Antoine. The good, the bad and the ugly! :)

8)

This will be a long travel, Gurn. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2011, 06:30:39 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 23, 2011, 06:27:35 AM
This will be a long travel, Gurn. :)

In the meanwhile, I hope you will be taking a side street to listen to either or both of the disks I posted last night. Guess they are 5-10 pages back by now, but anyway, at least the symphonies disk was rec'd with you in mind. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on November 23, 2011, 06:35:22 AM

Quoteinclusion of short, dissonant intermezzi between movements composed by Ron Ford; music inexplicably commissioned by Brüggen to fill in for spoken words.

However, adapting this work is not uncommon, but those for SQ, chorus and piano were all approved by Haydn - not this one. That said, I find it some what humorous that dissonant outbursts are standing in for the words of a bishop speaking from a pulpit.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2011, 06:46:26 AM

Quote from: Arnold on November 23, 2011, 06:35:22 AM
However, adapting this work is not uncommon, but those for SQ, chorus and piano were all approved by Haydn - not this one. That said, I find it some what humorous that dissonant outbursts are standing in for the words of a bishop speaking from a pulpit.

:)

I can relate to that. :D

"The intermezzi are meant to be a worthy musical substitute for no music" is one of those statements that only a Cato could parse. Savall uses the actual words, provided in the score by Haydn anyway. They are on separate tracks that one can program out (and I usually do). Atonal honking really is not an adequate substitute, especially when you can't program them out (although I would find a way). I will give this one a miss, I think, particularly since the Savall is so very satisfactory anyway. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 23, 2011, 06:53:48 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 23, 2011, 06:46:26 AM
Atonal honking really is not an adequate substitute, especially when you can't program them out (although I would find a way).

One could rip the tracks and edit out the honking...but I'm just going to grit my teeth (and my ears ;D ) and listen as Brüggen intended. Someday I might stop cursing :D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 23, 2011, 06:58:50 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 23, 2011, 06:30:39 AM
In the meanwhile, I hope you will be taking a side street to listen to either or both of the disks I posted last night. Guess they are 5-10 pages back by now, but anyway, at least the symphonies disk was rec'd with you in mind. :)

8)

Are you referring to this post?

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 22, 2011, 05:53:28 PM
Purchases Today (transplanted :D )

Just received these 2 in today's post. Listening to the symphonies now;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSymphony414449Arioncover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnBarytonTriosRicercarcover.jpg)

I had seen reviews of these here and there, enough to pique my curiosity. The Arion Baroque, led here by harpsichordist Gary Cooper, are indeed a 'real size' ensemble, in this case employing 17 musicians, which is very likely to be the precise number in the Esterhazy band at the time these works were composed (1768-71). Despite Mr. Hogwood's protestations, Cooper plays a harpsichord continuo. The justification for using a 3rd viola comes from Haydn's famous written instructions for the performance of the cantata "Applausus" from 1767, in which he urges the use of an extra viola to support the inner (instrumental) voices which frequently need it more than the upper and lower ones. In addition, since trumpets and timpani were only added on at the time of publication and didn't exist in the original autograph score of #41, they aren't used here in it either. The result is rather stunning actually. Whereas in every version (many!) that I've heard, one must struggle to pick out the amazing C maj Alto horns from the trumpets, here they stand out in a stark beauty that must be heard to be appreciated. I must admit, I am absolutely delighted so far (though still only in #44, another winner!). This is very HIP, unless you already really like PI and all it can do, you may be brought up short when you first hear it, esp. #41. :)

The baryton trio disk (well, I needed another one :D ) promises, by all I've read, to also be a winner. The barytonist, Balestracci, is reputed to be an actual virtuoso on the instrument. How rare is that? We'll see shortly. The liner notes were highly interesting with a brief discussion of actually playing the instrument. I can't remember any baryton disk that went that direction before. Hope it lives up to my expectations, I'll let you know tomorrow. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2011, 07:35:50 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 23, 2011, 06:53:48 AM
One could rip the tracks and edit out the honking...but I'm just going to grit my teeth (and my ears ;D ) and listen as Brüggen intended. Someday I might stop cursing :D

Sarge

Yes, that's what I would do, especially now that I have a great flac editor. But yeah, maybe you will get used to it. Or not. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2011, 07:37:17 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 23, 2011, 06:58:50 AM
Are you referring to this post?

Yes, that's the one.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 23, 2011, 09:13:55 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 23, 2011, 07:37:17 AM
Yes, that's the one.

Both of them look interesting, specially the symphonies. Gary Cooper is a very reliable guy.

Do you have this 2-CD set?

(http://cover7.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/87/1153387.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2011, 09:44:16 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 23, 2011, 09:13:55 AM
Both of them look interesting, specially the symphonies. Gary Cooper is a very reliable guy.

Do you have this 2-CD set?

(http://cover7.cduniverse.com/MuzeAudioArt/Large/87/1153387.jpg)

I have the 2 single CD's that came out before the set did. I have those same works by the Esterhazy group with Piccolo Concerto Wien, and also by Huss's group. All good, as befits the music. :)

In any case, I very much recommend the symphonies, especially to you and Que. They are particularly nice. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on November 23, 2011, 11:50:07 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 22, 2011, 06:10:12 PM
Strongly recommended, Arnold. I am now listening to the beautiful extended Adagio opening movement of #49 in f and it is truly special. 0:)
[asin]B001OBT3LG[/asin]

I'll now ask an impossible question.

Given that I already have the Pinnock versions of these symphonies in the Sturm & Drang box, and since the splendid liveliness of those Pinnock symphonies are what really woke me up to Haydnism in the first place, are these Arion versions sufficiently different/better/scrunchy/rock&roll (delete as appropriate) to warrant me buying that disc? Bearing in mind that there's still an enormous amount of Haydn (a) that I don't own; or (b) that I do own but l haven't listened to or assimilated properly yet. Bearing in mind also that I'm still finding the Schornsheim set of keyboard concertos so delicious that I keep playing them over and over, instead of moving on to pastures new.

Simpler questions relating to the meaning of life, the precise length of a piece of string, and the origin of the angular momentum of spinning mice will follow.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2011, 12:16:49 PM

Quote from: Elgarian on November 23, 2011, 11:50:07 AM
I'll now ask an impossible question.

Given that I already have the Pinnock versions of these symphonies in the Sturm & Drang box, and since the splendid liveliness of those Pinnock symphonies are what really woke me up to Haydnism in the first place, are these Arion versions sufficiently different/better/scrunchy/rock&roll (delete as appropriate) to warrant me buying that disc? Bearing in mind that there's still an enormous amount of Haydn (a) that I don't own; or (b) that I do own but l haven't listened to or assimilated properly yet. Bearing in mind also that I'm still finding the Schornsheim set of keyboard concertos so delicious that I keep playing them over and over, instead of moving on to pastures new.

Simpler questions relating to the meaning of life, the precise length of a piece of string, and the origin of the angular momentum of spinning mice will follow.

Ah, a 'why is there air?' question. :D

Well, I found the stark reading of #41 revelatory, and the subsequent playing of 44 & 49 to be as good as any of the competition (and better than most). But that's just me; you may be looking for something else in a performance and say to yourself "Freakin' Gurn had a cranio-rectal inversion this go-round".

I don't know if you do online streaming at all. I don't, so I only know what people say. But if it is possible to stream this and give it a pre-listen, that might settle you for it. Then you can either whip out your credit card else breathe a sigh of relief that you avoided aural disaster! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on November 23, 2011, 12:19:55 PM

Quote from: Elgarian on November 23, 2011, 11:50:07 AM
the precise length of a piece of string

I might be a New Worlder, but I know where that comes from!

(http://static.bbc.co.uk/programmeimages/384x216/clip/p00574dv.jpg?nodefault=true)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on November 23, 2011, 12:23:19 PM

Quote from: Elgarian on November 23, 2011, 11:50:07 AM
Simpler questions relating to the meaning of life, the precise length of a piece of string, and the origin of the angular momentum of spinning mice will follow.

Are those African mice, or European mice?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on November 23, 2011, 12:46:45 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 23, 2011, 09:44:16 AM
n any case, I very much recommend the symphonies, especially to you and Que. They are particularly nice. :)

8)

Your description does make it sound like a really interesting recording! :)

Quote from: Elgarian on November 23, 2011, 11:50:07 AM
Bearing in mind also that I'm still finding the Schornsheim set of keyboard concertos so delicious that I keep playing them over and over, instead of moving on to pastures new.

By all means - give yourself the time to relish in those delights! :)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on November 23, 2011, 01:33:30 PM

Quote from: DavidRoss on November 23, 2011, 12:23:19 PM
Are those African mice, or European mice?

Congratulations. You have provided the correct response, and your prize of ten dozen chocolate spinning mice is on its way to you.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on November 23, 2011, 04:41:33 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 23, 2011, 12:16:49 PM
Well, I found the stark reading of #41 revelatory, and the subsequent playing of 44 & 49 to be as good as any of the competition (and better than most). But that's just me; you may be looking for something else in a performance and say to yourself "Freakin' Gurn had a cranio-rectal inversion this go-round".

I don't know if you do online streaming at all. I don't, so I only know what people say. But if it is possible to stream this and give it a pre-listen, that might settle you for it. Then you can either whip out your credit card else breathe a sigh of relief that you avoided aural disaster! :D

I don't do this 'streaming' thing either, but what I did was to set up the two sets of samples from the Pinnock set, and the Arion disc, and alternate my way through the three symphonies in 30-second samples. Being so far removed from what one actually does when listening properly, it seems a daft thing to do ... except, well, the differences are rather gobsmacking, really.

I should explain first that what shocked and delighted me when I first heard Pinnock's Haydn symphonies (last year, was it?) was that, unlike his Mozart symphonies, they weren't 'polite'. They rollicked, where rollicking is called for. Well, in the course of today's 30-second-bursts-of-machine-gun-fire type of comparative listening, I found that every time, the Arion recording blasted Pinnock out of the sky. I could hardly believe it, but Pinnock sounds tame, safe, and pretty, by comparison.

This is troubling, because it's going to change my attitude to the Pinnock box, I suspect. Unless, of course, I decide not to buy the Arion disc, and let the memory of this experiment quietly fade. But if I buy the Arion disc, I open up a whole can of Haydnistical Pinnockian worms.

Oh what to do? What to do?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2011, 05:07:50 PM

Part 13

1764

In terms of life at Eisenstadt, 1764 brought no significant changes from 1763. The Prince was becoming a sensation due to his amazing tastes (like wearing a coat entirely studded with diamonds!) and extravagant style. The quality and depth of his wealth is stunning even today, since he never came close to lacking for money. At that time, he was only beginning to spend! For Haydn it was business as usual. Getting a house built, training musicians, writing music; the life he had aspired to was now his.

The music of 1764;

Hob 01_021 Symphony in A
Hob 01_022 Symphony in Eb 'The Philosopher'
   The Hanover Band / Goodman

Hob 01_023 Symphony in G
Hob 01_024 Symphony in D
   Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Goodman17_21cover-1.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Goodman22_25cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HogwoodVol04cover.jpg)

Hob 02_D22 Cassatio in D for 4 Horns & Strings
   L'Archibudelli / Koster
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnNaturlHorncover.jpg)

Hob 09_04 Six Minuetti di Ballo
   Ensemble Bella Musica de Vienne / Dittrich
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Dancesetc.jpg)

Hob 12_01 Duet in A for 2 Barytons
Hob 12_02 Duet in G for 2 Barytons
Hob 12_04 Duet in G for 2 Barytons
Hob 12_06 Duet in G for 2 Barytons
   Esterhazy Ensemble
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/BarytonDuetscover.jpg)

Hob 14_04 Divertimento in C for Keyboard
   L'Arte dell'Arco / Loreggian
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHob14cover.jpg)

Hob 16_Eb2 Sonata #17 in Eb for Keyboard
Hob 16_Eb3 Sonata #18 in Eb for Keyboard
   Yuko Wataya (Cembalo)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardWatayaEarlySonatascover.jpg)

Hob 17a_deest / 09_03 12 Menuets for Keyboard (w/Trio)
   Bart van Oort (Fortepiano)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardOortPiecescoverlarger.jpg)

Hob 24a_03 Cantata in C "Al Tuo arrivo felice"
Hob 24a_04 Cantata in A "Qual dubbio ormai"
   Cappella Coloniensis / A. Spering / VokalEnsemble Köln
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Esterhazycantatascover.jpg)

Well, a few new items here now, eh? :)

Four symphonies, but hardly an off year. The famous #22 in Eb dates from 1764. All of these 4 are interesting though. If we have someone who would like to analyze them a bit for us, that would be great. I don't want to go down any particular avenue excepting history unless there is a demand for it.

The Cassatio for 4 Horns doesn't appear in Hoboken. The score was found only in 1959 in a castle in Prague by Robbins-Landon. He dated it to 1764 more by logic than that it had a big "1764" written on the front. Haydn's orchestra went from 2 horns to 4 in 1763. Then, the piece is structurally related to symphony 31 (The Hornsignal) from 1765. It has some excellent horn writing, as does all Haydn's work from this time, like Symphonies 72 & 31. As I mentioned earlier, this disk with L'Archibudelli/Koster is a must-have!

For the first time we run across sets of dances. Down the road there would be lots more of them, but for now, we will have to be content with these. These 6 "Minuetti di Ballo" are on a very nice little disk on Harmonia Mundi. Some of the dances are authentic Haydn, some are "attributed to", but all are very nice. This is the only disk I have ever found of the orchestral versions of these early dances. If anyone has any knowledge to help me broaden out a bit, here is my plea for help. :)

Now we also get to the baryton. The more I learn about this instrument and listen to the music, the more I enjoy it. Since the dates of these earliest works are uncertain, given as a range (1764-1766), then I elect to start with the duets for 2 barytons. I'm sure that some of you that bought the Big Box have noticed that there is a disk missing from the baryton set. And this is it. It only is available when one buys the "Complete Music for Baryton" set. I'm hoping that our friend Harry will speak to his friends at Brilliant about releasing a "patch" with the disks that were lacking to fill out complete sets (a couple of string quartet disks are in that group too).

Some very nice sonatas that had not been available for years to Hoboken were finally authenticated and now exist as Eb2 & Eb3. I was rather surprised to note that they are among the most recorded early sonatas. Check them out on Brautigam or Van Oort, or join me with some more period instruments still, in this case harpsichord. :)

And speaking of Van Oort and dances, notice that I have properly classified the keyboard reductions of the dances into Hob 17 (other keyboard music) instead of Hob 9 (dances) since the original dances were all orchestrated, not keyboard reductions. That said, I believe that some of these sets of dances only exist in the keyboard form. This particular one, consisting of 12 minuets with trios, is a fine example of the minuet before it really zipped off into scherzo-land!

Finally, 2 cantatas written for Nicholas' return from a long journey (to a coronation in Frankfurt) finish off what is a very fine year of music!

Please feel free to add questions, comments, other facts, corrections etc. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnBarytonTriosRicercarcover.jpg) Balestracci \ Tampieri \ Cocset - Hob 11_042 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello 3rd mvmt - Menuet

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2011, 05:21:40 PM

Quote from: Elgarian on November 23, 2011, 04:41:33 PM
I don't do this 'streaming' thing either, but what I did was to set up the two sets of samples from the Pinnock set, and the Arion disc, and alternate my way through the three symphonies in 30-second samples. Being so far removed from what one actually does when listening properly, it seems a daft thing to do ... except, well, the differences are rather gobsmacking, really.

I should explain first that what shocked and delighted me when I first heard Pinnock's Haydn symphonies (last year, was it?) was that, unlike his Mozart symphonies, they weren't 'polite'. They rollicked, where rollicking is called for. Well, in the course of today's 30-second-bursts-of-machine-gun-fire type of comparative listening, I found that every time, the Arion recording blasted Pinnock out of the sky. I could hardly believe it, but Pinnock sounds tame, safe, and pretty, by comparison.

This is troubling, because it's going to change my attitude to the Pinnock box, I suspect. Unless, of course, I decide not to buy the Arion disc, and let the memory of this experiment quietly fade. But if I buy the Arion disc, I open up a whole can of Haydnistical Pinnockian worms.

Oh what to do? What to do?

Believe me, my friend, I know what you are going through. 10 years ago I was doing the same thing. I didn't have any sort of evil guru at the time either, it was more of a self-directed journey down the road to ruin. :D But I have just discovered along the way that things that I may have found to be OTT at the first were suddenly not, so much. The Pinnock set is really very good, some of his best work (I think, compared to his Mozart, for example). And what he (and Hogwood, Brüggen and Goodman) did was to open the door to the next logical step in the HIP road. That is, taking the music out of the museum, throwing away convention, and just letting it all hang out (I will add my opinion here: the way it was played when it was new music).

But I still have, and frequently play, my Pinnock, Hogwood, Brüggen and Goodman disks. I am very comfortable with them and wouldn't trade them off for anything. But if there was an entire cycle played with the elan of this disk, then I would certainly have that too. I love having different orchestras come to visit. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 23, 2011, 05:55:56 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 20, 2011, 01:58:56 PM
It's only 39 pages back, Bill (been nearly a month now! :o ), don't know why you couldn't just jump right to it! :D

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg570267.html#msg570267 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg570267.html#msg570267)

We need an index post, really we do . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2011, 06:01:07 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 23, 2011, 05:55:56 PM
We need an index post, really we do . . . .

I agree, but I don't know how to go about it. Any ideas on that, amigo? BTW, welcome back. Hope you're making up for lost time Haydn-wise. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnBarytonTriosRicercarcover.jpg) Balestracci \ Tampieri \ Cocset - Hob 11_113 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello 1st mvmt - Adagio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 23, 2011, 06:05:06 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 23, 2011, 06:01:07 PM
I agree, but I don't know how to go about it. Any ideas on that, amigo?

I am glad to offer to do't, though I cannot answer for when I can : )

Quote from: Ye Gurnatron5500BTW, welcome back. Hope you're making up for lost time Haydn-wise. :)

Thanks! Still glowing with good feeling about musical networking in Ohio.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2011, 06:14:45 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 23, 2011, 06:05:06 PM
I am glad to offer to do't, though I cannot answer for when I can : )

Thanks! Still glowing with good feeling about musical networking in Ohio.

Aye, and I think things are different depending on whether you view your post forward or backwards. I know when someone send me a link to a post and it's the most recent in a thread, when I go there it goes to the oldest post instead (I view backwards, clearly).

They were old school chums, is it not? That would be particularly nice. Glad you go the chance. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 23, 2011, 06:19:39 PM

Maybe for the INDEX you just link us to the pages that have your pieces and put it on the first page of this thread. Then we know where it is, you can update it from time to time, and put a small message at the bottom of each new issue of where to find the index, or link that too. It is pretty cool, Gurn, so it may be worth your time. Really turns this into a reference page worth revisiting the older posts.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2011, 06:22:54 PM

Quote from: Bogey on November 23, 2011, 06:19:39 PM
Maybe for the INDEX you just link us to the pages that have your pieces and put it on the first page of this thread. Then we know where it is, you can update it from time to time, and put a small message at the bottom of each new issue of where to find the index, or link that too. It is pretty cool, Gurn, so it may be worth your time. Really turns this into a reference page worth revisiting the older posts.

Well, I am keen on the idea, just need to manage the execution correctly. There are also other posts, by myself and others, that have some good information on them. I wish there was a tabbed bookmark feature... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 23, 2011, 06:27:29 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 23, 2011, 06:22:54 PM
Well, I am keen on the idea, just need to manage the execution correctly. There are also other posts, by myself and others, that have some good information on them. I wish there was a tabbed bookmark feature... :-\

8)

Yup. That is why I stopped reading and posting on many threads. Concentrate on a few. I would like to go back and read some of the HIP Mozart and start reading your Classical thread. Some baroque ones out there as well started by Que. Have to catch up with Karl's and also see is Alan has been posting.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 23, 2011, 06:29:11 PM

Maybe a DINER ban is in order for me. Good resolutin for the New Year.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2011, 06:35:12 PM

Quote from: Bogey on November 23, 2011, 06:27:29 PM
Yup. That is why I stopped reading and posting on many threads. Concentrate on a few. I would like to go back and read some of the HIP Mozart and start reading your Classical thread. Some baroque ones out there as well started by Que. Have to catch up with Karl's and also see is Alan has been posting.

Know just what you mean. As I have gotten far more busier in recent years, I have concentrated on a very few threads instead of spreading around. Of course, I read most of them, it's my job. But I only "tend" 2 now, this one and the Classical Corner. It has helped the quality of my posts to improve, which is more important to me than the quantity of them. Still, stuff gets lost in the rush anyway. So an index post is a great idea. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnEsterhazyNaplescover.jpg) Vienna Haydn Sinfonietta \ Huss - Hob 10_01 Divertimento Octet #5 in D for Baryton, Winds & Strings 2nd mvmt - Adagio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 23, 2011, 06:38:59 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 23, 2011, 06:35:12 PM
It has helped the quality of my posts to improve, which is more important to me than the quantity of them.

Anyway, you have 28,857 posts, funny boy!!!! :o ;D :D ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2011, 06:42:12 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 23, 2011, 06:38:59 PM
Anyway, you have 28,857 posts, funny boy!!!! :o ;D :D ;D

No, that's just a joke. I have powers far beyond those of mortal men. Like, I can put any number of posts I want into my profile. Or change yours to 1 if I feel like it. So when I saw Karl had some astronomic number, I added a '2' to the beginning of mine to make him feel inadequate. I really only have 8,858. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 23, 2011, 07:02:50 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 23, 2011, 06:42:12 PM
No, that's just a joke. I have powers far beyond those of mortal men. Like, I can put any number of posts I want into my profile. Or change yours to 1 if I feel like it. So when I saw Karl had some astronomic number, I added a '2' to the beginning of mine to make him feel inadequate. I really only have 8,858. :D

8)

I hadn't noticed this until this post, some weeks ago, when Karl was a "guest" for some hours: ;D

Quote from: ChamberNut on October 26, 2011, 06:05:07 AM
I'm sure Karl will be back - and once back - within a year will be top poster again! :)

That leaves Gurn's fictitious post count on top of the poster board. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 23, 2011, 07:04:15 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 23, 2011, 07:02:50 PM
I hadn't noticed this until this post, some weeks ago, when Karl was a "guest" for some hours: ;D

Days, really ; )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 23, 2011, 07:05:45 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 23, 2011, 07:04:15 PM
Days, really ; )

c'mon!!! :D ;D :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 23, 2011, 07:07:39 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 23, 2011, 06:14:45 PM
They were old school chums, is it not? That would be particularly nice. Glad you go the chance. :)

8)

Thanks! Some of 'em old school chums . . . then, too, got at last to meet Cato; caught up afresh with Pete Lekx, whom I had scarce seen since he left Boston for Cleveland; and meet the principal clarinetist of the Columbus Symphony.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 23, 2011, 07:08:18 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 23, 2011, 07:05:45 PM
c'mon!!! :D ;D :D

Well, you could count it in hours; but then, you could weigh yourself by the ounce, too : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2011, 07:10:43 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 23, 2011, 07:07:39 PM
Thanks! Some of 'em old school chums . . . then, too, got at last to meet Cato; caught up afresh with Pete Lekx, whom I had scarce seen since he left Boston for Cleveland; and meet the principal clarinetist of the Columbus Symphony.

Ah, very nice. I worked... :)

Q will come in here overnight and clean this room. Sweep and tidy. So that's a blessing.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 23, 2011, 07:14:36 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 23, 2011, 07:10:43 PM
Ah, very nice. I worked... :)

Felt like I had to move earth, heaven, and then earth again (for it had shifted, seemingly) in order to take that time off. But the result was worth the labors.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on November 23, 2011, 07:20:35 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 23, 2011, 05:07:50 PM
Four symphonies, but hardly an off year. The famous #22 in Eb dates from 1764. All of these 4 are interesting though. If we have someone who would like to analyze them a bit for us, that would be great. I don't want to go down any particular avenue excepting history unless there is a demand for it.

No.22 "The Philosopher" is a great symphony. Is it significant in any way that it was composed in the "church sonata" format? Or was this just a purely musical choice for this particular movement layout? I know other works such as No.49 "La passione" were also composed this way, but was always curious about the structure.

Inspired to listen now to...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/514g%2BWmDcAL._SS200_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on November 23, 2011, 09:32:46 PM

Is this the appropriate moment to mention that I abandoned indexing of Gurn's posts early on? :-\ :-[

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 24, 2011, 07:58:26 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on November 23, 2011, 07:20:35 PM

No.22 "The Philosopher" is a great symphony. Is it significant in any way that it was composed in the "church sonata" format? Or was this just a purely musical choice for this particular movement layout? I know other works such as No.49 "La passione" were also composed this way, but was always curious about the structure.

Inspired to listen now to...
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/514g%2BWmDcAL._SS200_.jpg)

Interesting question, Greg. Thanks for making me look it up, now I have an idea about it too. :)

Like nearly all questions related to music history, this one has answers that are both interpretive and ambivalent. One would infer from the name that a 'church sonata (sonate da chiesa)' is composed for use in church. And it's true, by the middle of the 17th century that in Italy the instrumental sonata had replaced extended organ solos as part of the mass proper. Since not all music was deemed suitable to play during mass, a form gradually evolved due to the fact that music directors would pick and choose parts of works to use, for propriety's sake. By the mid-18th century, that is, in Haydn's time, the standard had at least evolved to being a long slow movement followed by an allegro and then a mixed bag, depending on how many movements there were. What is important here is only that the standard, 'textbook' definition of 'church sonata', by Haydn's time, was a cycle of instrumental movements beginning with a slow movement.

However concurrently, the form itself moved outside of church circles (by 1720, apparently), and so by 1760's there seems to have been no more or less likelihood that a sonate da chiesa would be used in church than would a symphony beginning with an allegro. There certainly are some symphonies that were composed for church use, #30 'Alleluia' is an example, but with some clear exceptions that are not suitable, most of them could have been, whether in that old form or not. It seems lore likely that Haydn was just paying tribute to the old styles than specifically writing church music.

A neat thing about #22, getting back to that for a moment, is that it is the only symphony ever written by anyone at any time that loses the oboes and replaces them with English horns. The fact that it makes a brilliant effect in the first movement, but maybe less so in the remaining 3 may be the reason why this innovation became a one-off. I am delighted that he tried it though. Uniqueness is a good thing, whether in success or failure. Or in between. I think that is one of the roots of his greatness; he wasn't afraid to try new stuff, and if it failed, so be it. Most things didn't fail, it would seem. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnEsterhazyNaplescover.jpg) Vienna Haydn Sinfonietta \ Huss - Hob 10_12 Divertimento Octet #7 in G for Baryton, Winds & Strings 3rd mvmt - Finale: Presto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 24, 2011, 07:59:18 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on November 23, 2011, 09:32:46 PM
Is this the appropriate moment to mention that I abandoned indexing of Gurn's posts early on? :-\ :-[

And it would have been so easy if you had just kept after it! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 24, 2011, 09:42:50 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 22, 2011, 05:53:28 PM

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnBarytonTriosRicercarcover.jpg)

The baryton trio disk (well, I needed another one :D ) promises, by all I've read, to also be a winner. The barytonist, Balestracci, is reputed to be an actual virtuoso on the instrument. How rare is that? We'll see shortly. The liner notes were highly interesting with a brief discussion of actually playing the instrument. I can't remember any baryton disk that went that direction before. Hope it lives up to my expectations, I'll let you know tomorrow. :)

Gurn - LOL! ;D Guess I need another baryton disc like a hole in the head! :D

Let's see I have the BIG BOX, the 2 Hsu discs, 1 CD on Hugaroton w/ Kakuk, and the 2-disc set on Ricercar - many of the works on the above recording are also on the Hsu & Kakuk CDs, BUT I did enjoy reading Bruno's comments on Amazon HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Baryton-Trios-Haydn/dp/B004V4GXZW/ref=sr_1_4?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1322159595&sr=1-4) - SO, what do you think, i.e. worth adding to my collection? If so, are the liner notes needed (vs. a MP3 download) - thanks! Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on November 24, 2011, 06:50:11 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 24, 2011, 07:58:26 AM
Interesting question, Greg. Thanks for making me look it up, now I have an idea about it too. :)

Like nearly all questions related to music history, this one has answers that are both interpretive and ambivalent. One would infer from the name that a 'church sonata (sonate da chiesa)' is composed for use in church. And it's true, by the middle of the 17th century that in Italy the instrumental sonata had replaced extended organ solos as part of the mass proper. Since not all music was deemed suitable to play during mass, a form gradually evolved due to the fact that music directors would pick and choose parts of works to use, for propriety's sake. By the mid-18th century, that is, in Haydn's time, the standard had at least evolved to being a long slow movement followed by an allegro and then a mixed bag, depending on how many movements there were. What is important here is only that the standard, 'textbook' definition of 'church sonata', by Haydn's time, was a cycle of instrumental movements beginning with a slow movement.

However concurrently, the form itself moved outside of church circles (by 1720, apparently), and so by 1760's there seems to have been no more or less likelihood that a sonate da chiesa would be used in church than would a symphony beginning with an allegro. There certainly are some symphonies that were composed for church use, #30 'Alleluia' is an example, but with some clear exceptions that are not suitable, most of them could have been, whether in that old form or not. It seems lore likely that Haydn was just paying tribute to the old styles than specifically writing church music.

A neat thing about #22, getting back to that for a moment, is that it is the only symphony ever written by anyone at any time that loses the oboes and replaces them with English horns. The fact that it makes a brilliant effect in the first movement, but maybe less so in the remaining 3 may be the reason why this innovation became a one-off. I am delighted that he tried it though. Uniqueness is a good thing, whether in success or failure. Or in between. I think that is one of the roots of his greatness; he wasn't afraid to try new stuff, and if it failed, so be it. Most things didn't fail, it would seem. :)

8)

Wonderful reply. I wasn't very familiar with the term "church sonata" until I heard Haydn's #22 and #49, there was something very striking for me hearing these two works for the first time. Mainly due to the dramatic Adagio openings. I always find myself drawn to works that separate themselves from a common compositional structure. (#26, #45, #60...)
Looking forward to the future installments of Haydn's history here at the Haus.
Thanks again, Gurn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2011, 04:43:41 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on November 24, 2011, 09:42:50 AM
Gurn - LOL! ;D Guess I need another baryton disc like a hole in the head! :D

Let's see I have the BIG BOX, the 2 Hsu discs, 1 CD on Hugaroton w/ Kakuk, and the 2-disc set on Ricercar - many of the works on the above recording are also on the Hsu & Kakuk CDs, BUT I did enjoy reading Bruno's comments on Amazon HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Baryton-Trios-Haydn/dp/B004V4GXZW/ref=sr_1_4?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1322159595&sr=1-4) - SO, what do you think, i.e. worth adding to my collection? If so, are the liner notes needed (vs. a MP3 download) - thanks! Dave :)

Hey, Dave,
Yeah, sometimes it is a case of 'want' rather than 'need'. :) But I read about this one and wanted it. Of course, there is nothing new for us music-wise here, however, I will say that the reviews are right on. They really do make the music more alive, in short, they play the hell out of it! If we didn't have all that music already, we would probably be saying 'wow, baryton trios are cool!'.

The notes are quite interesting, but not indispensable. Since they are in several languages, the net gain is only a couple of pages. Unless a hard copy collection is important to you, I would be happy with the MP3's, I think. As you know, with me, I have a goal of having hard copy of all my Haydn. Other composers though, not so much. Also, possible to check Ricercar's website and the notes may be downloadable. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 25, 2011, 04:51:37 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on November 24, 2011, 09:42:50 AM
Gurn - LOL! ;D Guess I need another baryton disc like a hole in the head! :D

Let's see I have the BIG BOX, the 2 Hsu discs, 1 CD on Hugaroton w/ Kakuk, and the 2-disc set on Ricercar - many of the works on the above recording are also on the Hsu & Kakuk CDs, BUT I did enjoy reading Bruno's comments on Amazon HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Baryton-Trios-Haydn/dp/B004V4GXZW/ref=sr_1_4?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1322159595&sr=1-4) - SO, what do you think, i.e. worth adding to my collection? If so, are the liner notes needed (vs. a MP3 download) - thanks! Dave :)

Well, I have always thought of you fondly as Baryton46, Dave.....so get on with the purchase! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2011, 04:53:08 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on November 24, 2011, 06:50:11 PM
Wonderful reply. I wasn't very familiar with the term "church sonata" until I heard Haydn's #22 and #49, there was something very striking for me hearing these two works for the first time. Mainly due to the dramatic Adagio openings. I always find myself drawn to works that separate themselves from a common compositional structure. (#26, #45, #60...)
Looking forward to the future installments of Haydn's history here at the Haus.
Thanks again, Gurn.

Hey, Greg, glad it answered your question. I learned something from looking it up too, so it was win:win! :) Somewhere previously we all talked about Haydn's facility with adagios. One tends to think of 2nd or 3rd movements there, but like, the opening movement adagio of #49 is 12 minutes long! And the 7 adagios of the 7 Last Words total 55 minutes without wearing you out! I agree with you, the uncommon structural things always gain my ear too. On the opposite side are the works that do extraordinary things in an ordinary framework. Haydn was great at both. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnGriffettTraceycover.jpg) James Griffett (Tenor) \ Bradford Tracey (1798 Broadwood Fortepiano) - Hob 26a_33 Original Canzonettas Book II 'Sympathy'

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 25, 2011, 05:00:50 AM

Added this one to my Xmas wish-list:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51tMX8pLpBL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Not only did the reviews here move me toward it, but I believe that there is also something to be said about an ensemble/orch. when thay have only done one disc worth of music by a performer (at least I believe this is the case here). Shows a passion for a piece or two.

Might be an interesting conversation. What discs do you enjoy where the group only took on one discs worth of Haydn's music and recorded nothing else by him?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 25, 2011, 05:24:48 AM

Quote from: Bogey on November 25, 2011, 05:00:50 AM
Added this one to my Xmas wish-list:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51tMX8pLpBL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Not only did the reviews here move me toward it, but I believe that there is also something to be said about an ensemble/orch. when thay have only done one disc worth of music by a performer (at least I believe this is the case here). Shows a passion for a piece or two.

Might be an interesting conversation. What discs do you enjoy where the group only took on one discs worth of Haydn's music and recorded nothing else by him?

This is a superb example:

[asin]B0000029VW[/asin]

The Quartetto Esterházy was an ensemble leaded by Jaap Schröeder. They also recorded some interesting Boccherini. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2011, 07:31:20 AM

Here a a couple more, IMO:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnImmerseel4445cover-1.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnTrioGoyacover.jpg)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSchuppcover1.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSchuppcover2.jpg)

True, the Schuppanzigh's did 2 disks, but they are all over in opus numbers, and clearly they did just 6 quartets that they liked a lot.

Trio Goya is an excellent disk, and strictly a one-off, so far anyway.

Immerseel and Anima Eterna haven't touched Haydn beyond this, and did a very nice job with these. Certainly they could have done more if they wanted to.

Then there are the groups that never do "completes' anyway, they pick some really nice works and do a great job with them, then move on to another composer. Like these:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/LArch4tetscover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/LArchTrioscover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnNaturlHorncover.jpg)

The common thread there is Beths & Bylsma (Mr. & Mrs.). I think they had a yen to do some Haydn and they teamed up with other great PI musicians to make it happen. 3 different genres, 1 each. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HogwoodVol04cover.jpg) Academy of Ancient Music; Hogwood - Hob 01_022 Symphony in Eb 1st mvmt - Adagio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 25, 2011, 07:38:05 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 25, 2011, 07:31:20 AM
True, the Schuppanzigh's did 2 disks, but they are all over in opus numbers, and clearly they did just 6 quartets that they liked a lot.

Nothing wrong with that, bien sûr!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on November 25, 2011, 07:38:46 AM

Some of those could have been the result of funding issues also, you know. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on November 25, 2011, 07:38:58 AM

Each time I see this thread I always misread it as Harry's House and expect to see something like this:

(http://alloverthehouseinspection.com/images/blue%20house.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2011, 07:46:36 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 25, 2011, 07:38:05 AM
Nothing wrong with that, bien sûr!

No, absolutely! That was the point, I think. Bill was asking about one-hit-wonders in the Haydn discography. :)

Quote from: Opus106 on November 25, 2011, 07:38:46 AM
Some of those could have been the result of funding issues also, you know. ;)

True, although in these cases, L'Archibudelli has done every composer this way, so I figure it was their intent from the start. And the Schuppanzigh's call their disks "Anthology Vol 1 and 2" so that probably is their intent too. With Immerseel and the Esterhazy Quartet I just don't know any back story. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2011, 08:00:27 AM

Quote from: The new erato on November 25, 2011, 07:38:58 AM
Each time I see this thread I always misread it as Harry's House and expect to see something like this:

(http://alloverthehouseinspection.com/images/blue%20house.jpg)

There is simply nothing to be said about this one. I think you hit the nail on the head first try. This IS in the Netherlands, yes? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 25, 2011, 08:00:52 AM

Immerseel & Anima Eterna also recorded this tempting disc:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4009350832473.jpg)

I recalled these excellent just-one-Haydn:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0747313266029.jpg)(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0025091015627.jpg)(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/3760014191282.jpg)

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2011, 08:05:05 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 25, 2011, 08:00:52 AM
Immerseel & Anima Eterna also recorded this tempting disc:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4009350832473.jpg)

I recalled these excellent just-one-Haydn:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0747313266029.jpg)(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0025091015627.jpg)(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/3760014191282.jpg)

:)

There you go, live and learn. I didn't know about that mass recording. :)

I was going to put the Gaia Scienza disk on MY list too, but I had several others already. It is certainly a fair choice for it. My favorite of those works.

Tell me more about the Rincontro disk, Antoine. I have been looking at that for a while. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 25, 2011, 08:10:22 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 25, 2011, 08:05:05 AM
Tell me more about the Rincontro disk, Antoine. I have been looking at that for a while. :)

It is time for lunch! I will write something later. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2011, 08:13:41 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 25, 2011, 08:10:22 AM
It is time for lunch! I will write something later. :)

Important things first. Since our Haus kitchen is shut down for the holiday, you will have to arrange for yourself. See you later. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on November 25, 2011, 08:34:41 AM

Stop! Stop! My credit card is beginning to curl at the edges with the heat!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2011, 08:40:52 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on November 25, 2011, 08:34:41 AM
Stop! Stop! My credit card is beginning to curl at the edges with the heat!

Blame Bogey, not me. I am merely his meat-puppet. :) But it's true though, there are a lot of great versions out there. Even having most of them didn't make it any easier when I was choosing The One to put in my list. Sometimes choices simply can't be made. :(

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardOortPiecescoverlarger.jpg) Bart van Oort - Hob 09_03 12 Menuets for Keyboard #01 in D & a (w/Trio)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 25, 2011, 08:55:01 AM

There is an angel to weep at the elbow of every operator who is standing by . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2011, 09:32:35 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 25, 2011, 08:55:01 AM
There is an angel to weep at the elbow of every operator who is standing by . . . .

That's funny, I don't care who you are! 0:) ;D 0:)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Esterhazycantatascover.jpg) Cappella Coloniensis; A. Spering; VokalEnsemble Köln - Hob 24a_04 Cantata in A "Qual dubbio ormai" pt 2 - Aria "se ogni giorno"

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 25, 2011, 12:00:24 PM

Quote from: The new erato on November 25, 2011, 07:38:58 AM
Each time I see this thread I always misread it as Harry's House and expect to see something like this:

(http://alloverthehouseinspection.com/images/blue%20house.jpg)

Based on the angle of the house, it is easy to guess which side of his home Harry stores his cds on. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2011, 12:12:34 PM

Here is a crazy stab at making an index page while it is early times yet. Whoever has a brilliant idea on how to make it follow us, short of going back and bumping it regularly, needs to jump in and say so. I will point out to you that is there are other items you want to bookmark on this page (from this thread) go ahead and quote this post. I can go back and edit out the quotes later on and it will resume its appearance as a regular post that can be quoted still.

Part 13 - 1764 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg579590.html#msg579590)
Part 12 - 1763 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg578825.html#msg578825)
Part 11 - 1762 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg577820.html#msg577820)
Part 10 - 1761 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg577244.html#msg577244)
Part 9 - 1760 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg576614.html#msg576614)
Part 8 - 1759 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg575803.html#msg575803)
Part 7 - 1758 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg575233.html#msg575233)
Part 6 - 1757 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg574523.html#msg574523)
Part 5 - 1756 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg571607.html#msg571607)
Part 4 - 1754-55 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg570590.html#msg570590)
Part 3 - 1753 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg570274.html#msg570274)
Part 2 - 1751 - 52 Well, there IS nothing from those years, sorry. :D
Part 1 - 1749-50 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg570267.html#msg570267)

Discussion of sonates da chiesa (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg579715.html#msg579715)

Discussion of divertimentos (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg575808.html#msg575808)

Let's try this then. Everyone needs to help me keep it up!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 25, 2011, 12:18:39 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 25, 2011, 12:12:34 PM
Here is a crazy stab at making an index page while it is early times yet. Whoever has a brilliant idea on how to make it follow us, short of going back and bumping it regularly, needs to jump in and say so. I will point out to you that is there are other items you want to bookmark on this page (from this thread) go ahead and quote this post. I can go back and edit out the quotes later on and it will resume its appearance as a regular post that can be quoted still.

Part 13 - 1764 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg579590.html#msg579590)
Part 12 - 1763 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg578825.html#msg578825)
Part 11 - 1762 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg577820.html#msg577820)
Part 10 - 1761 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg577244.html#msg577244)
Part 9 - 1760 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg576614.html#msg576614)
Part 8 - 1759 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg575803.html#msg575803)
Part 7 - 1758 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg575233.html#msg575233)
Part 6 - 1757 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg574523.html#msg574523)
Part 5 - 1756 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg571607.html#msg571607)
Part 4 - 1754-55 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg570590.html#msg570590)
Part 3 - 1753 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg570274.html#msg570274)
Part 2 - 1751 - 52 Well, there IS nothing from those years, sorry. :D
Part 1 - 1749-50 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg570267.html#msg570267)

Discussion of sonates da chiesa (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg579715.html#msg579715)

Discussion of divertimentos (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg575808.html#msg575808)

Let's try this then. Everyone needs to help me keep it up!

8)

You could put it in your signature or something like that. Then it will always be easy to find. Is that what you meant by 'follow us'?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2011, 12:54:37 PM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 25, 2011, 12:18:39 PM
You could put it in your signature or something like that. Then it will always be easy to find. Is that what you meant by 'follow us'?

Yeah, like that. I'm not sure how many characters fit in a sig, I have been stopped from that before by too many. Those links, when they re in text form are very long. They appear short after posting, but the code is many time longer. However, that's precisely the idea I have in mind, just that this one won't work. Something will though. Thanks for having a shot at it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 25, 2011, 01:01:56 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 25, 2011, 12:54:37 PM
Yeah, like that. I'm not sure how many characters fit in a sig, I have been stopped from that before by too many. Those links, when they re in text form are very long. They appear short after posting, but the code is many time longer. However, that's precisely the idea I have in mind, just that this one won't work. Something will though. Thanks for having a shot at it. :)

8)

You started the thread - maybe edit the first post so at least it is in one spot? You could also start another thread that is like the index. Then you could link that thread in the signature. Not ideal though it would work.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2011, 01:05:35 PM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 25, 2011, 01:01:56 PM
You started the thread - maybe edit the first post so at least it is in one spot? You could also start another thread that is like the index. Then you could link that thread in the signature. Not ideal though it would work.

Oh, I like that 2nd one. That will take some thought to see how to make it stay put without pinning it. I don't want to piss off the Brianists... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 25, 2011, 01:06:37 PM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 25, 2011, 01:01:56 PM
You started the thread - maybe edit the first post so at least it is in one spot? You could also start another thread that is like the index. Then you could link that thread in the signature. Not ideal though it would work.

Ah....that sounds like a winner as well. Just a seperate Haydn thread with your chapters. The chapters will remain here, but read like a book in a seperate thread. Either way, thanks for the effort here! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 25, 2011, 01:09:02 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 25, 2011, 08:00:52 AM
I recalled these excellent just-one-Haydn:
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/3760014191282.jpg)

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 25, 2011, 08:05:05 AM
Tell me more about the Rincontro disk, Antoine. I have been looking at that for a while. :)

When I said "excellent", I was really thinking about the other two discs. These transcriptions are well played, but little else.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2011, 01:10:10 PM

Part 50 - to 1809 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg604911.html#msg604911)
Part 49 - 1800-03 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg604429.html#msg604429)
Part 48 - 1799 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg602821.html#msg602821)
Part 47 - 1798 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg602517.html#msg602517)
Part 46 - 1797 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg600742.html#msg600742)
Part 45 - 1796 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg600616.html#msg600616)
Part 44 - 1795 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg598759.html#msg598759)
Part 43 - 1794 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg598508.html#msg598508)
Part 42 - 1793 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg597776.html#msg597776)
Part 41 - 1792 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg596865.html#msg596865)
Part 40 - 1791 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg596681.html#msg596681)
Part 39 - 1790 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg594545.html#msg594545)
Part 38 - 1789 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg594373.html#msg594373)
Part 37 - 1788 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg592487.html#msg592487)
Part 36 - 1787 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg592319.html#msg592319)
Part 35 - 1786 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg590844.html#msg590844)
Part 34 - 1785 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg590585.html#msg590585)
Part 33 - 1784 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg590236.html#msg590236)
Part 32 - 1783 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg589782.html#msg589782)
Part 31 - 1782 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg589037.html#msg589037)
Part 30 - 1781 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg588095.html#msg588095)
Part 29 - 1780 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg587919.html#msg587919)
Part 28 - 1779 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg587711.html#msg587711)
Part 27 - 1778 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg587647.html#msg587647)
Part 26 - 1777 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg587226.html#msg587226)
Part 25 - 1776 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg587062.html#msg587062)
Part 24 - 1775 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg585967.html#msg585967)
Part 23 - 1774 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg585803.html#msg585803)
Part 22 - 1773 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg585298.html#msg585298)
Part 21 - 1772 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg584599.html#msg584599)
Part 20 - 1771 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg584104.html#msg584104)
Part 19 - 1770 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg584029.html#msg584029)
Part 18 - 1769 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg583472.html#msg583472)
Part 17 - 1768 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg582024.html#msg582024)
Part 16 - 1767 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg580948.html#msg580948)
Part 15 - 1766 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg580103.html#msg580103)
Part 14 - 1765 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg579944.html#msg579944)
Part 13 - 1764 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg579590.html#msg579590)
Part 12 - 1763 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg578825.html#msg578825)
Part 11 - 1762 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg577820.html#msg577820)
Part 10 - 1761 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg577244.html#msg577244)
Part 9 - 1760 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg576614.html#msg576614)
Part 8 - 1759 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg575803.html#msg575803)
Part 7 - 1758 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg575233.html#msg575233)
Part 6 - 1757 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg574523.html#msg574523)
Part 5 - 1756 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg571607.html#msg571607)
Part 4 - 1754-55 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg570590.html#msg570590)
Part 3 - 1753 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg570274.html#msg570274)
Part 2 - 1751 - 52 Well, there IS nothing from those years, sorry. :D
Part 1 - 1749-50 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg570267.html#msg570267)

Discussion of sonates da chiesa (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg579715.html#msg579715)

Discussion of divertimentos (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg575808.html#msg575808)

Keyboard Trios Chronology List (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg581116.html#msg581116)

String Quartets Chronology List (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg582504.html#msg582504)

Symphonies Chronology (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg583636.html#msg583636)

Style Periods in the Symphonies (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg584091.html#msg584091)

Discussion of Notturni for 2 Lira & Ensemble (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg596442.html#msg596442)

The Trumpet Concerto (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg622267.html#msg622267)

Flute & Keyboard Trios (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg629032.html#msg629032)

Masses & Secular Music (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg624789.html#msg624789)

Organ Concertos Part 1 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg672343.html#msg672343)

Organ Concertos Part 2 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg672455.html#msg672455)

Organ Concertos Part 3 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg672499.html#msg672499)

Organ Concertos Part 4 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg674290.html#msg674290)

Organ Concertos Part 5 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg674353.html#msg674353)

The Baryton Octets (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg680875.html#msg680875)

Click a link to go to the part you are interested in.

Thanks,
Gurn 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2011, 01:13:40 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 25, 2011, 01:09:02 PM
When I said "excellent", I was really thinking about the other two discs. These transcriptions are well played, but little else.

Ah, so they are like transposed string trio versions of the baryton trios, is it so?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2011, 01:16:07 PM

Quote from: Bogey on November 25, 2011, 01:06:37 PM
Ah....that sounds like a winner as well. Just a seperate Haydn thread with your chapters. The chapters will remain here, but read like a book in a seperate thread. Either way, thanks for the effort here! :)

Bogey and Neal,
Please look in my sidebar and see if you could get there easily enough. Works for me, but I know what I did... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 25, 2011, 01:17:16 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 25, 2011, 01:13:40 PM
Ah, so they are like transposed string trio versions of the baryton trios, is it so?

Yes, that's right.

BTW, that index is a fabulous work. Thank you very much!!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on November 25, 2011, 01:21:27 PM

Hooray! The globey thingy works!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2011, 01:23:21 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 25, 2011, 01:17:16 PM
Yes, that's right.

BTW, that index is a fabulous work. Thank you very much!!!

Ah, thanks on both counts. :)

I read somewhere, a few years back now so I don't remember the source, that all of the known baryton trios from the early 19trh century on were only known in this way. So people believed that Haydn had composed well over 100 string trios. They were arranged for Violin, Viola & Cello, just like a 'modern' string trio. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2011, 01:25:23 PM

Quote from: chasmaniac on November 25, 2011, 01:21:27 PM
Hooray! The globey thingy works!

Well, as long as people think to look there for the link, I think that will be cool! Thanks to Neal for starting me off that way. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HogwoodVol08Cover.jpg) Academy of Ancient Music; Hogwood - Hob 01_060 Symphony in C 3rd mvmt - Menuetto - Trio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 25, 2011, 01:34:30 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 25, 2011, 01:25:23 PM

Well, as long as people think to look there for the link, I think that will be cool! Thanks to Neal for starting me off that way. :)

Glad to help! :) (globey thingy worked for me too)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2011, 01:37:27 PM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 25, 2011, 01:34:30 PM
Glad to help! :) (globey thingy worked for me too)

I noticed while perusing the profile setup that there was actually an (unused in my case) opening for a url. From there it was just details. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 25, 2011, 01:39:46 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 25, 2011, 01:23:21 PM
I read somewhere, a few years back now so I don't remember the source, that all of the known baryton trios from the early 19trh century on were only known in this way. So people believed that Haydn had composed well over 100 string trios. They were arranged for Violin, Viola & Cello, just like a 'modern' string trio. :-\

Yes! That explanation gives some historical support to these transcriptions because the baryton was always a rarity, even during its own time. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2011, 02:15:58 PM

Part 14

1765
Things continued apace in this year. A few things of note though. Old Werner, in a fit of self-righteous crankiness, complained that Haydn wasn't doing his work thoroughly enough. Chances are it wasn't true, but the resultant kick in the pants he got spurred him on to a lot of new compositions in a short time.

Like this. Let's look at the Baryton Trios situation now, since we are at the start of a long line. Of course, we start with Book 1. It was published in 1766 in a private edition for the Prince (of course). But it was written over a 2 year period. It contains 24 trios, so I put them 12 in 1765 and 12 in 1766 (they actually are numbered, Halleluiah!) Anyone who attaches sufficient importance to want to know beyond doubt that there were actually 10 in 1765 and 14 in 1766 is beyond me already. I don't want to listen to more than 12 at a sitting, so that's what I went with. :D

Music of 1765;
Hob 01_029 Symphony in E
   Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood
Hob 01_030 Symphony in C
   Concentus Musicus Wien / Harnoncourt
Hob 01_031 Symphony in D
   Hanover Band / Goodman Anthony Halstead (Natural Horn)
Hob 01_039 Symphony in g
   L'Estro Armonico / Solomons

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HogwoodVol04cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHarnoncourt305364cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/GoodmanHornsignalcover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSolomons35-38-39-49-58-59cover.jpg)

Hob 05_21 Divertimento á tre in D for 2 Violins & Bass
   Camerata Berolinensis
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Str3o1.jpg)

Hob 11_001 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_002 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_003 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_004 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_005 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_006 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_007 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_008 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_009 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_010 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_011 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_012 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 12_20 Divertimento in G for Baryton Solo
Hob 12_21 Divertimento in D for Baryton Solo
Hob 12_22 Divertimento in A for Baryton Solo
Hob 12_23 Divertimento in G for Baryton Solo
   Esterhazy Ensemble
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/51K8sfvSrHL.jpg)

Hob 14_12 Concertino in C for Keyboard
Hob 14_13 Divertimento in G for Keyboard
Hob 14_C2 Divertimento in C for Keyboard
   L'Arte dell'Arco / Loreggian
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHob14cover.jpg)

Hob 16_03 Sonata #14 in C for Keyboard
Hob 16_05a Sonata #28 in D for Keyboard (inc)
Hob 16_47 Sonata #19 in e for Keyboard
Hob 17_02 20 Variations in G on an Original Theme
   Christine Schornsheim
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardSchornsheimHaydn.jpg)

Hob 16_04 Sonata #9 in D for Keyboard
   Yuko Wataya
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardWatayaEarlySonatascover.jpg)

Hob 17_01 Capriccio in G for Clavichord
   Derek Adlam
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardAdlamclavichordcover.jpg)

Hob 23c_04a Responsoria de Venerabili
Tafelmusik / Bruno Weil
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnWeilMassesCompletecover.jpg)

Some of my very favorites start showing up here. There is the Hornsignal Symphony (Halstead is in very fine form in this version too!), and the very first of the Stürm und Dräng symphonies, #39 in g minor. Sadly, the last certain string trio. I continue to press my belief that he only abandoned the form because of the time spent on Baryton works instead. Pity, since it would be until Mozart's K 563 before there would be some really good string trios around again. Boccherini's are very fine too, but they likely never made it to Vienna.

Also here is the Capriccio variation set on "Acht Sauschneider müssen sein" (an old folksong "It takes 8 strong men" (to castrate a boar)). This work marks a change in his keyboard style by presenting a fusion between ritornello/sonata form and variation form. I am particularly fond of Adlam's clavichord effort presented here. If you are a 'structure person', this is a good one to figure out. I couldn't do it with a road map, but maybe you... :)

And finally, a responsory. One of very few religious works he was allowed to write before Werner died the following year.

From this point on, I think that things get more interesting. If the music hasn't really grabbed you up to this point, things are about to change. Even if you only have a few of these, give them an attentive listen. I think you will see what the future holds. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnTheatricalSymphoniescover.jpg) Haydn Sinfonietta Wien \ Huss - Hob 01_060 Symphony in C 4th mvmt - Presto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2011, 02:28:32 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 25, 2011, 01:39:46 PM
Yes! That explanation gives some historical support to these transcriptions because the baryton was always a rarity, even during its own time. :)

Very true. And gone altogether before the end of the 18th century. In order to make the baryton part suitable for the violin (it was written to be the lead anyway), it had to have been transposed up at least an octave. I would think that the only place where the tessitura of those instruments would intersect would be at the extremes for both. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on November 25, 2011, 02:34:20 PM

#31 is one of my favorites. I know I've written about it before here, of course the horns throughout the piece are memorable, but I love the solo instruments in the Adagio and the "variation" Finale.

Would love to see what some other's recording of choice is of #31.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2011, 02:47:01 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on November 25, 2011, 02:34:20 PM
#31 is one of my favorites. I know I've written about it before here, of course the horns throughout the piece are memorable, but I love the solo instruments in the Adagio and the "variation" Finale.

Would love to see what some other's recording of choice is of #31.

Yup, hard to dislike if you have any love at all for horn work. Along with its partner, #72.

Of course, you already know my favorite. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/GoodmanHornsignalcover.jpg) Hanover Band; Goodman Anthony Halstead (Natural Horn) - Hob 01_031 Symphony in D 1st mvmt - Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 25, 2011, 04:03:07 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 25, 2011, 12:12:34 PM
Here is a crazy stab at making an index page while it is early times yet. Whoever has a brilliant idea on how to make it follow us, short of going back and bumping it regularly, needs to jump in and say so.............

Hello Gurn - GREAT 'first stab' at your 'index' - the link to your 'globe' worked for me - not sure what the best way is to offer this on a convenient basis but will give it some thought - just wondering whether you're planning to write a book on this chronological review of Papa Joe's works? Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2011, 04:39:05 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on November 25, 2011, 04:03:07 PM
Hello Gurn - GREAT 'first stab' at your 'index' - the link to your 'globe' worked for me - not sure what the best way is to offer this on a convenient basis but will give it some thought - just wondering whether you're planning to write a book on this chronological review of Papa Joe's works? Dave :)

Thanks, Dave. Yes, it does seem to work and I must say it is handy, even for me. :)

I don't know. I am researching as one would to write a book, but haven't decided where to go with it yet. Since no real writer or musical historian has seen fit to do anything like this (at least for the non-doctoral candidate audience ::) ) maybe it will be something to think about. Right now, it is an effort to satisfy my curiosity. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Completebarytontrioscover.jpg) Esterhazy Ensemble - Hob 11_001 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1 4th mvmt - Presto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 25, 2011, 08:21:55 PM

Thanks for making this happen! Very cool! I cannot wait to start reading it tomorrow.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 25, 2011, 08:23:31 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 25, 2011, 04:39:05 PM
Thanks, Dave. Yes, it does seem to work and I must say it is handy, even for me. :)

I don't know. I am researching as one would to write a book, but haven't decided where to go with it yet. Since no real writer or musical historian has seen fit to do anything like this (at least for the non-doctoral candidate audience ::) ) maybe it will be something to think about. Right now, it is an effort to satisfy my curiosity. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Completebarytontrioscover.jpg) Esterhazy Ensemble - Hob 11_001 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1 4th mvmt - Presto

Well, at least a Haydn web page....or contribute your work to one you favor.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on November 25, 2011, 11:40:07 PM

Hehe... I actually wanted to suggest that segments be posted in a separate thread instead of the Haus, when you began the story of Haydn, but given the way the discussions surrounding the instalments seemed to the drag it away from being a sequence, I did not mention it. Glad to see this here -- I'm sure it'll be very helpful like Sara's index for composers*. :) Thanks.

*Perhaps she could provide a link to this thread there also.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2011, 06:16:29 AM

Quote from: Bogey on November 25, 2011, 08:23:31 PM
Well, at least a Haydn web page....or contribute your work to one you favor.

Well, that's what I'm doing now... :) Really, this is just a skeletal outline, basically to highlight important events and to force a music chronology tied to them. However the end result turns out, at least I will have learned something on the way. And my fellow Haydnistos will have done the same, and helped each other out too. Win:Win!

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardSchornsheimHaydn.jpg) Christine Schornsheim - Hob 16_04 Sonata #9 in D for Clavichord 2nd mvmt - Menuet

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 26, 2011, 06:42:46 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 26, 2011, 06:16:29 AM
Well, that's what I'm doing now... :) Really, this is just a skeletal outline, basically to highlight important events and to force a music chronology tied to them. However the end result turns out, at least I will have learned something on the way. And my fellow Haydnistos will have done the same, and helped each other out too. Win:Win!

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardSchornsheimHaydn.jpg) Christine Schornsheim - Hob 16_04 Sonata #9 in D for Clavichord 2nd mvmt - Menuet

I bet there are some all Haydn sites that would enjoy it as well....heck, sell to the highest bidder! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2011, 06:48:04 AM

Quote from: Bogey on November 26, 2011, 06:42:46 AM
I bet there are some all Haydn sites that would enjoy it as well....heck, sell to the highest bidder! :D

And if I didn't, would it be Love's Labor Lost? 0:)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardSchornsheimHaydn.jpg) Christine Schornsheim - Hob 17_02 20 Variations in G on an Original Theme pt 10 - Variation IX

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on November 26, 2011, 08:20:57 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 26, 2011, 06:16:29 AM
And my fellow Haydnistos will have done the same, and helped each other out too. Win:Win!

I'm hoping I shall have internet access, and so still be able to keep on following you, from debtor's prison.

(Well done with the index by the way - invaluable, and thank you.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2011, 08:27:26 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on November 26, 2011, 08:20:57 AM
I'm hoping I shall have internet access, and so still be able to keep on following you, from debtor's prison.

(Well done with the index by the way - invaluable, and thank you.)

Crikey, Alan, I really am sorry about that. When I started out I didn't realize the thing was a contagion. :-\

On the upside, I understand that the more enlightened prisons these days grant Internet access due to its being considered cruel and unusual punishment to be without. :D

You're welcome, by the way. Glad I could get it working before the entire became too unwieldy. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HogwoodVol04cover.jpg) Academy of Ancient Music; Hogwood - Hob 01_028 Symphony in A 2nd mvmt - Poco adagio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2011, 09:50:29 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on November 25, 2011, 11:40:07 PM
Hehe... I actually wanted to suggest that segments be posted in a separate thread instead of the Haus, when you began the story of Haydn, but given the way the discussions surrounding the instalments seemed to the drag it away from being a sequence, I did not mention it. Glad to see this here -- I'm sure it'll be very helpful like Sara's index for composers*. :) Thanks.

*Perhaps she could provide a link to this thread there also.

Thanks, Navneeth. Actually, I was hoping yesterday that you would wander by since you are always full of good ideas. But we did seem to have worked it out. It is still editable, which is a good thing, I think. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Completebarytontrioscover.jpg) Esterhazy Ensemble - Hob 12_03 & 5 Duet in D for 2 Barytons 2nd mvmt - Menuet: Allegretto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2011, 10:49:30 AM

While pondering some input I got from James (who seems to be a wizard of some sort!) I realized that there was no need for another thread to link the index to. I merged it into this very same thread and updated the link and get precisely the same results. This is good, and less space consuming. Thanks, James. if you weren't a closet Haydnisto, I would have never thought of this. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Completebarytontrioscover.jpg) Esterhazy Ensemble - Hob 11_014 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1 1st mvmt - Adagio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on November 26, 2011, 11:25:28 AM

OK, OK - call me a simpleton, if you will (no wait, dammit - not all at once! Form a queue for pity's sake!), but ...

Where has the Index gone? There it was, so bright and clear, like a guiding star through strange and unfamiliar territory - and now it's gone. Where is it? What happened? I read some stuff about James having suggested some kind of wizard wheeze, and now ... was it a disappearing trick? It's gone, and I can't find it!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2011, 11:29:00 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on November 26, 2011, 11:25:28 AM
OK, OK - call me a simpleton, if you will (no wait, dammit - not all at once! Form a queue for pity's sake!), but ...

Where has the Index gone? There it was, so bright and clear, like a guiding star through strange and unfamiliar territory - and now it's gone. Where is it? What happened? I read some stuff about James having suggested some kind of wizard wheeze, and now ... was it a disappearing trick? It's gone, and I can't find it!

Oh, I see, you got to it direct. Well, click the little globe icon on my sidebar and it brings you there too. Once there, it works just the same way. Still not the neatest thing (opens up extra tabs), but works good. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on November 26, 2011, 11:51:07 AM

I return to the London Symphonies this afternoon at work, Symphony no.97 with Bruggen:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516HLK4jc7L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I've been hearing so much Haydn that is new to me, that I needed to go back and refresh with an old familiar standby in order to help sort out the new stuff I've been hearing...even with the familiar stuff there is always something new to hear and enjoy, always an amazing phrase or bit of orchestration that lifts the spirit! And now with Haydn's early stuff in context, again, I hear the London symphonies anew ;D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on November 26, 2011, 11:57:59 AM

Also, I think I already mentioned this aways back, but I recently heard Haydn's opera "Orlando Paladino" for the first time from Dorati (I have to mention it again it is so good):

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41TVERSHRVL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

AND had a great time with it. I didn't even follow along with the libretto, I just soaked up the music and the voices and took a trip the 18th Century!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2011, 12:06:36 PM

Quote from: Leo K on November 26, 2011, 11:57:59 AM
Also, I think I already mentioned this aways back, but I recently heard Haydn's opera "Orlando Paladino" for the first time from Dorati (I have to mention it again it is so good):

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41TVERSHRVL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

AND had a great time with it. I didn't even follow along with the libretto, I just soaked up the music and the voices and took a trip the 18th Century!

8)

Yes, really like that one. It is rather a strange opera anyway, if you try to follow the plot you might just go nuts! But it doesn't matter, the music and singing are first rate and that's what counts.

Quote from: Leo K on November 26, 2011, 11:51:07 AM
I return to the London Symphonies this afternoon at work, Symphony no.97 with Bruggen:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516HLK4jc7L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I've been hearing so much Haydn that is new to me, that I needed to go back and refresh with an old familiar standby in order to help sort out the new stuff I've been hearing...even with the familiar stuff there is always something new to hear and enjoy, always an amazing phrase or bit of orchestration that lifts the spirit! And now with Haydn's early stuff in context, again, I hear the London symphonies anew ;D

Hard to go wrong with those anyway. I do that fairly often, although usually I go to one of my favorite years, like 1787 or 1795 which has some of my longtime standbys in it and get back on plane. Works every time. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnEarlyDivertimenticover.jpg) Haydn Sinfonietta Wien \ Huss - Hob 14_01 Divertimento in Eb for Cembalo, Violin & 2 Horns 1st mvmt - Moderato

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on November 26, 2011, 12:24:04 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 26, 2011, 11:29:00 AM
Oh, I see, you got to it direct. Well, click the little globe icon on my sidebar and it brings you there too. Once there, it works just the same way. Still not the neatest thing (opens up extra tabs), but works good. :)

8)

Aha!! Got it! Thanks Gurn. Seems like I was doing it all wrong from the start!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2011, 12:30:40 PM

Part 15

1766

A watershed year for Haydn, and coincidentally, for us also. To start with, his immediate superior, Gregor Werner, passed away. Although Haydn genuinely respected him (he really was a great composer of church music and stile antico), he also was holding Haydn back. True, Haydn had continually built up the orchestra in both quantity and quality, and drilled them constantly until they became one of the finest private orchestras in Europe. But Werner wasn't satisfied, as we saw in 1765 when he wrote the letter to the Prince about Haydn's failure to maintain any discipline, and also his failure to compose sufficient music (!!).

The side benefit for us, when we are looking back to those years, is that Haydn sat down and wrote a list (the Entwurf-Katalog). He wrote it in response to the criticism that "he is not applying himself diligently to composition", but the benefit derives to us. It is a 2-edged sword though, since on the one hand it gives by telling us what he remembers having written up until then. On the other hand, it takes away because it doesn't say "in 1758 I wrote this...", and this has led to the general statement seen so often in these music chronologies "composed before 1766".

However, the biggest change of all for everyone who was a part of the Prince's household is that in 1766 Esterhazy Palace was opened for business! Eisenstadt was, from this point on, a place to spend the winter. Gone with it was the easy access to Vienna that Haydn had enjoyed (not as though he got the chance to take advantage of it very often!). The Prince was absolutely enamored of Esterhazy, and why not? It was one of the most beautiful and fully featured edifices ever constructed, even putting Versailles in the shade. For Haydn, life would never be the same, for better or for worse.

The music of 1766

Hob 01_028 Symphony in A
Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HogwoodVol04cover.jpg)

Hob 10_11 Duet in D for 2 Barytons

Hob 11_013 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_014 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_015 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_016 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_017 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_018 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_019 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_020 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_021 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_022 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_024 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1

Hob 11_025 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_026 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_027 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_028 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_029 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_030 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2

Hob 12_03 & 5 Duet in D for 2 Barytons

Hob 12_19 12 Cassations for 2 Barytons & Violone
Esterhazy Ensemble
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Completebarytontrioscover.jpg)

Hob 14_01 Divertimento in Eb for 2 Horns, 1 Violin, Cembalo & Baßo
Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnEarlyDivertimenticover.jpg)

Hob 16_45 Sonata #29 in Eb for Keyboard
Christine Schornsheim
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardSchornsheimHaydn.jpg)

Hob 18_03 Concerto in F for Keyboard
Musica Antiqua Amsterdam / Koopman
Hob 18_03 Concerto in F for Keyboard
Concerto Copenhagen / Mortensen Brautigam
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKoopmancover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Brautigamconcertoscover.jpg)

Hob 28_02 Opera buffa in 2 Acts "La Cantarina"
Palmer Chamber Orchestra / Palmer with Harris / Garrison / Fortunato / Guyer
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnCantarinacover.jpg)

OK, so what do we have here, Herr Haydn? 1 symphony? Yes, well due to the catalog mentioned above, there were originally 20 or so assigned to 1766. Once they were all tracked down, the number shrank substantially. It is a nice one though, glad to have it. Not frequently recorded as it isn't part of any trend, just a very nice symphony. This Hogwood recording is, in fact, the only PI one that I have. Of course, there are a few MI ones, I have Fischer for example.

There are a few highlights to point out in the baryton works too. He was still writing things other than trios at that time. Some of them are especially interesting. There are several duets for 2 barytons, probably played by the Prince and Weigl. Here is another fine opportunity to ponder the mystery that was Hoboken. Here we find Hob 10_11, a duet in D major for 2 Barytons. Section 10 ( X ) is indicated to be for "Barytons with various instruments". Section 12 (XII), OTOH, is for Baryton Duets. And we saw some in 1764 and again this year. How this stray wondered off the ranch I can't figure out. :-\

That said, a nice thing that I like here is Hob 12_19 12 Cassations for 2 Barytons & Violone. They are in a variety of available keys, and can be played from beginning to end as one piece. The violone, for those unfamiliar with the term, was the functional equivalent of a double bass. It is actually a very large bass viol, thus it will have a flat back and usually have frets and anywhere from 4-6 strings. Where it fails in the volume competition with the actual bass (which is a member of the violin family) it makes up in having a beautiful mellow tone that blends in well in chamber ensembles. Haydn used them a lot, so most of the time, especially in the early works, when you see 'Baßo' (basso), he means Violone. :)

Here also we find the only member of Hob 14 (XIV) that varies from what has been the standard scoring (2 violins, cembalo & Baßo), the #1 Divertimento in Eb for 2 Horns, 1 Violin, Cembalo & Baßo. A very nice little piece, and this being the only recording of it that I have found so far (PI or otherwise). Bless you, St Manfred of Huss.... :D

I put 2 versions of Hob 18_03 because it was originally composed for a harpsichord (cembalo), but even in very early times, by the 1770's, it, along with 18_04 were played on the fortepiano in Vienna and elsewhere. No harm in having both versions here. Koopman's is a peach, and exceptional in being one of the few actually performed on the correct instrument. Brautigam's is precisely what we have come to expect from him, wonderful power, and with great accompaniment from the Copenhageners.

And finally, another opera. "La Cantarina" (The Diva or The Songstress). Well, not really an opera in the strict sense, but an intermezzo. As such, it lacks an overture, but Palmer has chosen here to use Symphony #1, a perfect (and likely authentic) choice for this work. It is about an old man who is a music teacher and a young lady who is his student (aren't they all?). A friend pretends to be her mother and convince the teacher to marry her (and give her all his money, of course). Hilarity ensues. There are 4 arias and 2 quartets (one at the end of each act). Most fortunately, this is a good performance. It would be a really suck situation if it wasn't, because there aren't any others. ::)

Delighted to hear what y'all think of any of this music. The Stürm und Dräng is nearly upon us, but let's enjoy what we have right now. Some very nice stuff here. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on November 26, 2011, 05:24:43 PM

Another wonderful entry Gurn, much thanks!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2011, 05:34:37 PM

Quote from: Leo K on November 26, 2011, 05:24:43 PM
Another wonderful entry Gurn, much thanks!

Thanks, Leo. Hope you get an opportunity to explore these works soon. Some nice ones here. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSolomons35-38-39-49-58-59cover.jpg) L'Estro Armonico; Solomons - Hob 01_058 Symphony in F 2nd mvmt - Andante

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on November 26, 2011, 05:55:21 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 26, 2011, 05:34:37 PM
Thanks, Leo. Hope you get an opportunity to explore these works soon. Some nice ones here. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSolomons35-38-39-49-58-59cover.jpg) L'Estro Armonico; Solomons - Hob 01_058 Symphony in F 2nd mvmt - Andante

Gurn, I put the Brilliant box of Baryton trios on my Christmas list and my wife just told me, "Maybe so!" 8)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2011, 05:57:21 PM

Quote from: Leo K on November 26, 2011, 05:55:21 PM
Gurn, I put the Brilliant box of Baryton trios on my Christmas list and my wife just told me, "Maybe so!" 8)

8)

Proving your excellent taste in ladies. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on November 27, 2011, 03:35:33 AM

A chap on the Bach cantatas list has started a Haydn blog to shed some light on our obscure Austrian composer! I've sent him a link to the Haus. I've also tried and, unfortunately, failed to comment on his blog. Maybe that feature isn't turned on yet. You can find it here: http://haydnpages.blogspot.com/view/classic (http://haydnpages.blogspot.com/view/classic). Courage, braves! We'll get Papa Joe a contract yet!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 27, 2011, 06:44:05 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 23, 2011, 06:13:18 AM
Interested in a summary report, Antoine. The good, the bad and the ugly! :)

Well, Gurn, this is the report of a happy camper.

The first volume of this integral has thoroughly been a pleasure. I have listened to many times these three discs what is an indication (these days of musical/CD hyperinflation) of their quality and, of course, the fully enjoyable nature of these early quartet-divertimenti.

Firstly, the Tatrai Quartet: a first-rate ensemble. I think (it's a wild assumption) you have probably listened to some of the recordings that they did later in their cycle; but these recordings of the "Fürnberg" Quartets, the Op. 42 and the Op. 103 are simply exquisite. All tempi are properly chosen; with every movement duly characterized and the interplay among the instruments always sounding both intimate and full of complicity. I have loved those early quartets: fast-minuet-slow-minuet-fast (just excepting two (?) of them), where the slow movement seems the center of the universe.

Second, I have also liked some Italianate character of the early quartets and I can easily explain to myself why they were so quickly popular, including several pirate editions since 1764.

Third, I think now it's an error doesn't include these early quartets (divertimenti) in the integral recordings of Haydn's quartets. I would really love to see the Festetics to record them.

(http://pixhost.me/avaxhome/12/6f/00176f12_medium.jpeg)

Highly recommended.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 27, 2011, 08:53:42 AM

Gurn - thanks for the wonderful 'new' installment! Looking forward to more - getting more interested in obtaining some PI performances of Joe's earlier symphonies? Now I do have the Fischer box so have all of them, and a bunch of collections of the later ones from the low 80s and up - did have a few Goodman discs but culled them from my collection - don't want to really buy a BUNCH of singles, so will wait and hold my breath! Dave :)

For the morning, comparing two keyboard versions of the Seven Last Words... - Brautigam on fortepiano (last disc in his Haydn box) & Hakkinen on clavichord, just received and first listen - kind of preferring Ronald over Aapo at the moment, but will certainly need to give that clavichord version some more attention (and I do like that instrument) - :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnPSonsBrautigam/747616974_qcvoA-O.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-BLTMh98/0/O/HaydnSLWsClavichord.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 27, 2011, 09:04:07 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on November 27, 2011, 03:35:33 AM
A chap on the Bach cantatas list has started a Haydn blog to shed some light on our obscure Austrian composer! I've sent him a link to the Haus. I've also tried and, unfortunately, failed to comment on his blog. Maybe that feature isn't turned on yet. You can find it here: Haydn Blog (http://haydnpages.blogspot.com/view/classic). Courage, braves! We'll get Papa Joe a contract yet!

Interesting. I need to get over there and check it out. Sounds like Antoine's sort of guy; Bach and Haydn. Bizarre combination in my book. :D

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Beethoven_9_BernsteinNYPO1964.jpg) NYPO/Bernstein \ Martina Arroyo \ Regina Sarfaty \ Nicholas di Virgilio \ Norman Scott - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 4th mvmt pt 2 - Presto - Rezitativo - "O Freunde, nicht diese Töne!" - Allegro assai

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 27, 2011, 09:21:21 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 27, 2011, 06:44:05 AM
Well, Gurn, this is the report of a happy camper.

The first volume of this integral has thoroughly been a pleasure. I have listened to many times these three discs what is an indication (these days of musical/CD hyperinflation) of their quality and, of course, the fully enjoyable nature of these early quartet-divertimenti.

Firstly, the Tatrai Quartet: a first-rate ensemble. I think (it's a wild assumption) you have probably listened to some of the recordings that they did later in their cycle; but these recordings of the "Fürnberg" Quartets, the Op. 42 and the Op. 103 are simply exquisite. All tempi are properly chosen; with every movement duly characterized and the interplay among the instruments always sounding both intimate and full of complicity. I have loved those early quartets: fast-minuet-slow-minuet-fast (just excepting two (?) of them), where the slow movement seems the center of the universe.

Second, I have also liked some Italianate character of the early quartets and I can easily explain to myself why they were so quickly popular, including several pirate editions since 1764.

Third, I think now it's an error doesn't include these early quartets (divertimenti) in the integral recordings of Haydn's quartets. I would really love to see the Festetics to record them.

(http://pixhost.me/avaxhome/12/6f/00176f12_medium.jpeg)

Highly recommended.

8)

Excellent, Antoine. This will be an interesting journey for you then. Off to a great start. Not sure if I am surprised or not. Certainly I am not surprised that you like the music. Actually, it is considered to be very learned for the pre-classical times in which it was created. It is thought that he must be writing them for definitely more than amateur musicians, and probably the first violin part for himself. I have mentioned several times here how much I like this music, by far the best of all his early works. No, if I am surprised at all, it is that you are enjoying the performances. I have listened to some, and the are later (Op 50 & 76). I agree that the playing itself is excellent, it is only that the tempi chosen, particularly for Op 76, are much slower than I like them to be. Not to say they suck though, I have certainly heard worse!

I also agree that it is a travesty for PI groups to have always ignored these works. What possible sense can it be? To say that they really are not string quartets in the classic sense brings only from me a big "so what?". If they must be performed totally authentically, then get a violone. Also, consider the possibility (it is an even chance) that Haydn did intend a cello. What then of the argument against? If the Tatrai and even the Kodaly can play them, then the Festetics or the Mosaiques could do the same. >:(

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSolomons35-38-39-49-58-59cover.jpg) L'Estro Armonico; Solomons - Hob 01_035 Symphony in Bb 2nd mvmt - Andante

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 27, 2011, 09:26:28 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on November 27, 2011, 08:53:42 AM
Gurn - thanks for the wonderful 'new' installment! Looking forward to more - getting more interested in obtaining some PI performances of Joe's earlier symphonies? Now I do have the Fischer box so have all of them, and a bunch of collections of the later ones from the low 80s and up - did have a few Goodman discs but culled them from my collection - don't want to really buy a BUNCH of singles, so will wait and hold my breath! Dave :)

For the morning, comparing two keyboard versions of the Seven Last Words... - Brautigam on fortepiano (last disc in his Haydn box) & Hakkinen on clavichord, just received and first listen - kind of preferring Ronald over Aapo at the moment, but will certainly need to give that clavichord version some more attention (and I do like that instrument) - :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnPSonsBrautigam/747616974_qcvoA-O.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-BLTMh98/0/O/HaydnSLWsClavichord.jpg)

Hey, Dave.
Wow, your Hakkinen came already? I haven't seen mine yet. :'( Probably tomorrow then.

Well, it's going to be a totally different experience from the fortepiano versions I'm used to. I do have some clavichord Haydn that is even later than this, like the Variations Hob 17:6. So I have done some legitimate comparisons with fortepiano already. And learned that one has to judge strictly on the merits of the instrument rather than as a comparison. Yup, do look forward to it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on November 27, 2011, 11:52:23 AM

I feel like the raw recruit who is marching out of step with the rest of the regiment, but anyway - this arrived yesterday:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VMS5SAR7L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Just 2 CDs into the box so far, and well, what a delight. These trios are absolute charmers and no mistake, and (insofar as I can judge, which isn't very far) wonderfully played with both delicacy and vigour. The only cause for concern is that, as when I was listening to the Goodman symphonies, I'm just slurping them in like lollipops. I reassure myself by observing that on a walk by the river I don't need to stop and closely examine every flower I pass; often the subconscious awareness of their presence is itself very satisfying. And one can always return ....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 27, 2011, 12:15:08 PM

Quote from: Elgarian on November 27, 2011, 11:52:23 AM
I feel like the raw recruit who is marching out of step with the rest of the regiment, but anyway - this arrived yesterday:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VMS5SAR7L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Just 2 CDs into the box so far, and well, what a delight. These trios are absolute charmers and no mistake, and (insofar as I can judge, which isn't very far) wonderfully played with both delicacy and vigour. The only cause for concern is that, as when I was listening to the Goodman symphonies, I'm just slurping them in like lollipops. I reassure myself by observing that on a walk by the river I don't need to stop and closely examine every flower I pass; often the subconscious awareness of their presence is itself very satisfying. And one can always return ....

Oh no, not t all, Alan. That's a splendid acquisition, indispensable, really. I think one sees a whole different composer in that genre as in the symphonic or string quartet media. Without letting the crazy numbering scheme drive you nuts, see if you can check out the middle ones. They would be those with Hoboken numbers from 5 to 17, all composed in the 1780's. They have, in my opinion, some of his finest melodic efforts. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on November 27, 2011, 01:21:01 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 27, 2011, 12:15:08 PM
see if you can check out the middle ones. They would be those with Hoboken numbers from 5 to 17, all composed in the 1780's. They have, in my opinion, some of his finest melodic efforts

Thanks. I shall pursue them!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 27, 2011, 03:07:26 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 27, 2011, 09:04:07 AM
Sounds like Antoine's sort of guy; Bach and Haydn. Bizarre combination in my book. :D

Honestly, I think the weirdest couple of favorite composers belongs to Marc: Bach and Mahler. Bach and Mahler, man!!! :D ;D :D

Yesterday, I read this quote of Bach in Bach: The Learned Musician by Christoph Wolff (well, really the quote is taken from Forkel):

Quotewhat I have achieved by industry and practice, anyone else with tolerable natural gift and ability can also achieve.

It has some Haydn air, isn't it? :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on November 27, 2011, 03:12:30 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 27, 2011, 09:04:07 AM
Sounds like Antoine's sort of guy; Bach and Haydn. Bizarre combination in my book. :D

Those would be my 2 faves as well. Seems sensible enough to me! 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 27, 2011, 03:21:10 PM

Quote from: Elgarian on November 27, 2011, 11:52:23 AM
I feel like the raw recruit who is marching out of step with the rest of the regiment, but anyway - this arrived yesterday:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VMS5SAR7L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Just 2 CDs into the box so far, and well, what a delight. These trios are absolute charmers and no mistake, and (insofar as I can judge, which isn't very far) wonderfully played with both delicacy and vigour. The only cause for concern is that, as when I was listening to the Goodman symphonies, I'm just slurping them in like lollipops. I reassure myself by observing that on a walk by the river I don't need to stop and closely examine every flower I pass; often the subconscious awareness of their presence is itself very satisfying. And one can always return ....

Congratulations! It was a wise decision to purchase this wonderful set. I think your approach it's almost the only possible because the ammount of beauty and melodic creativeness of this music (not to mention the delightful playing) is really overwhelming to try any other approach in a first listen. It would be as trying to follow the discography proposed by Gurn through his posts... It's really a work for some years, the years invested by him in his project. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 27, 2011, 03:29:35 PM

Quote from: chasmaniac on November 27, 2011, 03:12:30 PM
Those would be my 2 faves as well. Seems sensible enough to me! 8)

I like this guy!!! :)

BTW, I hope DavidW will come back soon. His favorite composers are also Bach and Haydn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on November 27, 2011, 03:53:29 PM

Just got this:

[asin]B000P46Q86[/asin]

And on first listen, prefer it to my other disc featuring the lira by Hugo Ruf and Susanne Lautenbacher, mainly because of the sound of the group and the lira itself. The tempos are a bit more relaxed and the overall sound much warmer and I think more fitting for that unique instrument.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 27, 2011, 04:30:09 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 27, 2011, 03:07:26 PM
Honestly, I think the weirdest couple of favorite composers belongs to Marc: Bach and Mahler. Bach and Mahler, man!!! :D ;D :D

Yesterday, I read this quote of Bach in Bach: The Learned Musician by Christoph Wolff (well, really the quote is taken from Forkel):

It has some Haydn air, isn't it? :)

Yes indeed it does. Properly humble in the face of not really knowing where that immense talent came from. To have that sort of gift for doing anything is such a rarity. But for it to be something so public as creating music, that's special.

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnNaturlHorncover.jpg) L'Archibudelli; Koster - Hob 04_05 Divertimento à Tre in Eb for Horn, Violin & Cello 1st mvmt - Moderato assai: [Thema con variazioni]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 27, 2011, 04:32:39 PM

Quote from: chasmaniac on November 27, 2011, 03:12:30 PM
Those would be my 2 faves as well. Seems sensible enough to me! 8)

Well, I can only repeat my long-standing tagline; I can listen to Bach for hours. I can listen to Haydn for years! :) Not that I don't appreciate the man's genius. It's just that a little goes a long way. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 27, 2011, 04:38:02 PM

Quote from: Arnold on November 27, 2011, 03:53:29 PM
Just got this:

[asin]B000P46Q86[/asin]

And on first listen, prefer it to my other disc featuring the lira by Hugo Ruf and Susanne Lautenbacher, mainly because of the sound of the group and the lira itself. The tempos are a bit more relaxed and the overall sound much warmer and I think more fitting for that unique instrument.

:)

That's a highly enjoyable disk, Arnold. Clearly some nice music on there. I notice in the lira organizatta works that they have 1 each of both the notturnos and the concertos; one of the original Naples version with lira and one of the London arrangements (by Haydn) with flute and oboe (and a few other orchestration changes). Haydn had committed to providing a certain number of 'new' compositions for the London series ("A new composition shall be presented at each (of 12) concert"). He thought so highly of these works, and knew they would never be played again otherwise, that he arranged them for commonly used instruments for that purpose. I like that this disk offers both versions for comparison. It's a very good disk, IMO. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 27, 2011, 05:22:32 PM

Some historical Haydn:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51IxqaZIaxL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Sinfonia concertante
HOB I:105
Danish State Radio SO
Jan. 1951

Love it!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 27, 2011, 05:42:20 PM

Quote from: Bogey on November 27, 2011, 05:22:32 PM
Some historical Haydn:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51IxqaZIaxL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Sinfonia concertante
HOB I:105
Danish State Radio SO
Jan. 1951

Love it!

Tell us a bit, Bill. I am curious does it seem like he used a big band for this? How was the tempo, fast or slower? I know the recorded sound had to have some issues, we ignore that, but did it seem like nice clarity of the parts? Always questions I like to know, not shopping for it, but want to know how the performance style compares to today. :)

Thanks,
8)

This one here is pretty zippy!:
----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Completebarytontrioscover.jpg) Esterhazy Ensemble - Hob 11_036 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2 2nd mvmt - Allegro di molto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 27, 2011, 05:52:08 PM

Any comment on these discs, dear Haydnistos (apparently a neologism created by Gurn)?

(http://www.klassiekezaken.nl/images/afbeeldingen/120/ro_46.jpg)

Lidi 0104100/01
2 CD - HM65x2
durée : 115'
Haydn - Les six concertos pour orgue Hob. XVIII
Olivier Vernet, orgue B. Aubertin : St-Loup-sur-Thouet (France)
"Les Sauvages", sur instruments anciens
Stéphanie-Marie Degand, violon solo
Jérémie Rohrer, direction

(http://image.allmusic.com/00/acg/cov200/cm600/m608/m60874ssk4l.jpg)

Lidi 0104192-08
1 CD - HM76
durée :70'39

Haydn - Concertini Hob.XIV : 11,12,13 et Hob.XVIII : F2,
Ensemble ...in Ore mel... (sur instruments anciens)
Stéphanie-Marie Degand,
Pierre Franck, violons
Raphaël Chrétien, cello
Olivier Vernet, à l'orgue Cabourdin de Mougins (06)

Partita a due Hob.XVIIa:2
Flötenuhr-Stücke Hob. XIX: n°27 à 32- version à 2 organistes
Olivier Vernet, Cédric Meckler à l'orgue Cabourdin de Mougins (06)

http://www.olivier-vernet.com/discographie-olivier-vernet.php#haydn

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 27, 2011, 05:57:16 PM

Here be the timings:

Allegro 9:17
Adante 4:57
Allegro con spirito 6:37

Here is a bit. Mine is not as muddled, but.... ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VOx_iFLWvs

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 27, 2011, 06:04:32 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 27, 2011, 05:52:08 PM
Any comment on these discs, dear Haydnistos (apparently a neologism created by Gurn)?

(http://www.klassiekezaken.nl/images/afbeeldingen/120/ro_46.jpg)

Lidi 0104100/01
2 CD - HM65x2
durée : 115'
Haydn - Les six concertos pour orgue Hob. XVIII
Olivier Vernet, orgue B. Aubertin : St-Loup-sur-Thouet (France)
"Les Sauvages", sur instruments anciens
Stéphanie-Marie Degand, violon solo
Jérémie Rohrer, direction

(http://image.allmusic.com/00/acg/cov200/cm600/m608/m60874ssk4l.jpg)

Lidi 0104192-08
1 CD - HM76
durée :70'39

Haydn - Concertini Hob.XIV : 11,12,13 et Hob.XVIII : F2,
Ensemble ...in Ore mel... (sur instruments anciens)
Stéphanie-Marie Degand,
Pierre Franck, violons
Raphaël Chrétien, cello
Olivier Vernet, à l'orgue Cabourdin de Mougins (06)

Partita a due Hob.XVIIa:2
Flötenuhr-Stücke Hob. XIX: n°27 à 32- version à 2 organistes
Olivier Vernet, Cédric Meckler à l'orgue Cabourdin de Mougins (06)

http://www.olivier-vernet.com/discographie-olivier-vernet.php#haydn

:D Yes, that's my word. It has become fashionable here to add that suffix to words denoting people who fancy things, for example, if you are into stylish clothing, you will be a fashionisto. I thought Haydn would be a suitable candidate for such naming. :)

Now, let's see. I have the second Vernet pictured. Of course he plays very well, as he does also in the Bach I have heard from him. The man has an immense organ though, not necessarily perfectly suitable for the music, which was composed a small chamber organ without even foot pedals. So it some down to personal preference. I think Bach was not composed for house sized instruments either, but they are loved by many. :)

The first one, I have no idea. He plays so very well, but it depends all on the instrument. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on November 27, 2011, 06:12:42 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 27, 2011, 06:04:32 PM
:D Yes, that's my word. It has become fashionable here to add that suffix to words denoting people who fancy things, for example, if you are into stylish clothing, you will be a fashionisto. I thought Haydn would be a suitable candidate for such naming. :)

Cool! It's official: we're Haydnistos. 8)

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 27, 2011, 06:04:32 PM
Now, let's see. I have the second Vernet pictured. Of course he plays very well, as he does also in the Bach I have heard from him. The man has an immense organ though, not necessarily perfectly suitable for the music, which was composed for either a musical clockworks or else a small chamber organ without even foot pedals. So it some down to personal preference. I think Bach was not composed for house sized instruments either, but they are loved by many. :)

The first one, I have no idea. He plays so very well, but it depends all on the instrument. :)

Yes, I also found that instrument excessively big. On the other hand, the organ concertos sound excellent, both the strings and the organ. But I have just listened to 30 secs. excerpts. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 27, 2011, 06:19:22 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 27, 2011, 06:12:42 PM
Cool! It's official: we're Haydnistos. 8)

Yes, I also found that instrument excessively big. On the other hand, the organ concertos sound excellent, both the strings and the organ. But I have just listened to 30 secs. excerpts. :)

Ah, the concertos is the other disk that I haven't heard. Well that would be good. I haven't relistened yet that disk, but glanced over the notes to refresh my memory of it. That is the one with all Hob 14 works (except for that bastard child in Hob 18). Of course, being for clavier he can play what he wants there, but it seems that it was the oversized organ now playing works that should be played on cembalo that turned me off. After all, he is accompanied by only 2 violins and a bass of some sort. The is a basic inequity to it all, I think. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on November 28, 2011, 02:23:11 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 27, 2011, 04:32:39 PM
Well, I can only repeat my long-standing tagline; I can listen to Bach for hours. I can listen to Haydn for years! :) Not that I don't appreciate the man's genius. It's just that a little goes a long way. :)

8)

Ah, you an' yer fancy book-learnin'! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 28, 2011, 03:49:51 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 27, 2011, 12:15:08 PM

Quote from: Elgarian on November 27, 2011, 11:52:23 AM
I feel like the raw recruit who is marching out of step with the rest of the regiment, but anyway - this arrived yesterday:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VMS5SAR7L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Just 2 CDs into the box so far, and well, what a delight. These trios are absolute charmers and no mistake, and (insofar as I can judge, which isn't very far) wonderfully played with both delicacy and vigour. The only cause for concern is that, as when I was listening to the Goodman symphonies, I'm just slurping them in like lollipops. I reassure myself by observing that on a walk by the river I don't need to stop and closely examine every flower I pass; often the subconscious awareness of their presence is itself very satisfying. And one can always return ....

Oh no, not t all, Alan. That's a splendid acquisition, indispensable, really. I think one sees a whole different composer in that genre as in the symphonic or string quartet media. Without letting the crazy numbering scheme drive you nuts, see if you can check out the middle ones. They would be those with Hoboken numbers from 5 to 17, all composed in the 1780's. They have, in my opinion, some of his finest melodic efforts. :)

8)

Well, I'll get in step alongside you, Alan. Part of my weekend was spent transferring 80% of this box to my mp3 player. (I probably listened to the first three discs back when the box first came in.)

And now, to target these trios whereof the Gurnatron speaks so highly . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on November 28, 2011, 06:03:01 AM

Disc 5 of the Piano Trios | 12-14 and 16. I chose it for the two minor-keyed works.

At times the E minor trio displays a Mozartian angst and despair (pardon the anachronistic comparison, Gurn ;)) -- he even throws a few angry chords at the listener, and the lyricism of the second movement is as calming, although with a sad undertone, as the younger composer's best slow movements.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on November 28, 2011, 06:29:35 AM

No. 13 has some lovely lines for the violin the opening movement... despite the C minor opening, it simply soars so beautifully, heart-warming and aching at the same time.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 29, 2011, 11:10:37 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 25, 2011, 01:10:10 PM
Discussion of sonates da chiesa

To my eye, this is macaronic. Sonates is the plural in French (sonate, singular). Mais. . . da chiesa is of course Italian. In Italian the singular is sonata, the plural sonate.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 29, 2011, 11:16:11 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 29, 2011, 11:10:37 AM
To my eye, this is macaronic. Sonates is the plural in French (sonate, singular). Mais. . . da chiesa is of course Italian. In Italian the singular is sonata, the plural sonate.

But surely you've noticed that in the 18th century, among educated Euros, using 2 or even 3 or more languages in a single sentence is not only routine, but even de rigeur! I laugh too, but there it is. I actually copied the phrase out of a book... :) (not saying you aren't 100% correct, of course...) 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 29, 2011, 11:20:30 AM

Very good; just glad to know that our Gurn is innocent of linguistic atrocity!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 29, 2011, 01:31:23 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 29, 2011, 11:16:11 AM
But surely you've noticed that in the 18th century, among educated Euros, using 2 or even 3 or more languages in a single sentence is not only routine, but even de rigeur! I laugh too, but there it is. I actually copied the phrase out of a book... :) (not saying you aren't 100% correct, of course...) 0:)

Gurn - LOL! ;D When I was last in Italy (1996 and having some Spanish in college and using an Italian language guide book - lots of similarities), I was trying to converse 'a little' and one of the young female secretaries (this was a medical meeting in Bologna) who was Portuguese, said jokingly that I was using Spanish & Italian in 'trying' to converse - BOY, now I feel so HIP! :D Dave

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 29, 2011, 05:56:53 PM

Part 16

1767
The Big Boss! One thinks it must have been an amazing thing for this son of a wheelwright from rural Austria to suddenly be the leader of one of the finest orchestras in Europe. If he did, beyond a sense of internal satisfaction, Haydn didn't show it. He came to work every day, went down the huge list of tasks, then went home and practiced and learned. However, the satisfaction probably came in other ways. Having this shiny new orchestra to drive every day, he put his foot on the innovation pedal, tried out new things, went places that hadn't been explored yet and exercised his creative genius.

The symphonies were starting to get more depth, as he began to break loose from the galant simplicity which used to dominate his style. Not storm and stress, not yet, but still, not the typical expanded Italian overture any longer either. Baryton for the Boss was still the order of the day though.

The music of 1767:

Hob 01_035 Symphony in Bb
Hob 01_038 Symphony in C
Hob 01_058 Symphony in F
   L'Estro Armonico / Solomons
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSolomons35-38-39-49-58-59cover.jpg)

Hob 04_05 Divertimento à Tre in Eb for Horn, Violin & Cello
   L'Archibudelli / Koster
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnNaturlHorncover.jpg)

Hob 10_07 Sonata in D for Baryton & Cello

Hob 11_031 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_032 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_033 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_034 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_035 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_036 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_037 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_038 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_039 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_040 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_041 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_042 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_043 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_044 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_045 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_046 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_047 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_048 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_049 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_050 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_051 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
   Esterhazy Ensemble
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Completebarytontrioscover.jpg)

Hob 15_39 5 Trio arrangements for Keyboard & Strings
   Van Swieten Trio
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnvanSwietencover.jpg)

Hob 16_12 Sonata #12 in A for Clavichord
   Yuko Wataya
Hob 16_19 Sonata #30 in D for Clavichord
   Carole Cerasi
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardWatayaEarlySonatascover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardCerasicover.jpg)

Hob 20bis Stabat mater for Solo Voices, Chorus & Orchestra
   The English Concert & Choir / Pinnock Rozario / Robbin / Johnson / Hauptmann
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Stabatcover.jpg)

OK, lots of baryton, no doubt. But if you've been following along, you can see the expansion of his powers even in this demarcated format. Among the trios, #39 in D is a standout. And we are almost to the halfway point, starting the third big volume. With so many works, it is almost impossible to pick out high spots. I can more easily relate to people who get bogged down in the symphonies now. :D

Speaking of which, we have three nice ones at hand. Some collections (like this L'Estro Armonico set) count these among the Stürm und Dräng and others don't. It's true, they are all major key, but like his other works, they are beginning to show the signs of Empfindsankeit that would lead to the emotion of S & D in a very short while.

And Hob IV:5, a splendid little chamber piece for Horn, Violin & Cello. It's a pity that time is such a barrier, I would love to hear the players he had versus our best hornists of today, like Koster or Halstead. Certainly their talents were sufficient to drive him to heights of composition.

The Hob 15_39 5 Trio arrangements in F for Keyboard & Strings are called "Trio #4" by Landon, but it is doubtful that they were ever parts of a single musical work. They are triostücke possibly written for a reason, maybe not. In any case, they are the only trio works in the time period from 1758 to 1772. A pleasant listening choice, though it seems the Van Sweiten's are the only option for them (no problem there though).

The Stabat Mater had an historically much larger part to play in Haydn's career than even he realized. It was his first big sacred music in quite a long time, since with the death the previous year of Werner, Haydn now had that to do also. It is a very substantial work, styled on the Neapolitan oratorio. The work achieved the highest praise from composers of 'big music' like Hasse, for example, who wrote a letter of lavish praise after Haydn had sent him a copy asking for suggestions for improvement. But the real bonus came down the road. In whatever manner, the score ended up in France where it was received with the highest possible regard. It was praised unanimously as the best Stabat Mater since Pergolesi's. The net result of that was that it became an annual event at the Concert spirituel during the 1770's and '80's, which led to his symphonies being sought out and played heavily, and then the commission for the Paris Symphonies. By that time, he was one of the most popular composers (judging by concert performances and score sales), and hadn't really even made an effort to be.

In any case, there is a brief overview. I hope you have already several of these works to listen to, and will share your ideas about them.

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardDenglercover.jpg) Gudrun Dengler (Cembalo) - Hob 17_01 Capriccio in G for Keyboard on 'Acht Sauschneider müssen seyn'

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on November 29, 2011, 06:53:29 PM

Arkivmusic started a sale today on Helios--3 for $25, and additional for the same $8.33 (US).

17 CDs from the Goodman/Hanover Band set of FJH's symphonies are included. So naturally I ordered 16 of them (I already have the 17th, No. 70-72)

This doesn't include the full run, obviously. Anyone (Gurn!) know how many more CDs I need to look for to complete the set?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on November 30, 2011, 12:00:35 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 28, 2011, 03:49:51 AM
Well, I'll get in step alongside you, Alan. Part of my weekend was spent transferring 80% of this box to my mp3 player. (I probably listened to the first three discs back when the box first came in.)

And now, to target these trios whereof the Gurnatron speaks so highly . . . .

Well that's good company to be in.

I made a small start, listening to the flute trios on CD6 (nos. 15, 16), and then went back to no.5 on CD1. To be honest, I don't think I'm familiar enough with them (or indeed, perhaps fundamentally not sensitive enough, or maybe not critical enough) to be able to distinguish their superiority over the others. For 15/16 I was hampered by finding the flute a bit shrill - so musical considerations tended to fade a bit as time went on, and I didn't go on to listen to 17 (on the same disc). And 5 (my second listening to it) was lovely, but then so were all the others on that first CD. So I think in the first instance, until I get further up the learning curve, I'll go back to my scattergun approach of snaffling chocolates from the box,* regardless of where they come from.

(That said, I may never learn any better. I'm still in the position of melting helplessly in response to Mozart's 13th PC, even though the rest of the world tells me it's totally undistinguished and to be dismissed!)

*I'll let the absurdly mixed metaphor stand. I don't think one can snaffle anything (implying a taking-in) with a scattergun approach (implying a giving-out).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on November 30, 2011, 02:18:33 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 29, 2011, 06:53:29 PM
Arkivmusic started a sale today on Helios--3 for $25, and additional for the same $8.33 (US).

17 CDs from the Goodman/Hanover Band set of FJH's symphonies are included. So naturally I ordered 16 of them (I already have the 17th, No. 70-72)

This doesn't include the full run, obviously. Anyone (Gurn!) know how many more CDs I need to look for to complete the set?

I love those Goodmans, but, alas!, there are only 17 of them. You'll have them all.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 30, 2011, 04:10:49 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 29, 2011, 06:53:29 PM
Arkivmusic started a sale today on Helios--3 for $25, and additional for the same $8.33 (US).

17 CDs from the Goodman/Hanover Band set of FJH's symphonies are included. So naturally I ordered 16 of them (I already have the 17th, No. 70-72)

This doesn't include the full run, obviously. Anyone (Gurn!) know how many more CDs I need to look for to complete the set?

No, actually, that IS the full run! They also did 2 disks on the Nimbus label, the one I rec'd the other day with #31 and the horn concertos by Joseph and Michael, and then the 2nd has #100 & 104 (I think). SO yeah, you're all good, Congratulations! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 30, 2011, 04:17:19 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on November 30, 2011, 12:00:35 AM
Well that's good company to be in.

I made a small start, listening to the flute trios on CD6 (nos. 15, 16), and then went back to no.5 on CD1. To be honest, I don't think I'm familiar enough with them (or indeed, perhaps fundamentally not sensitive enough, or maybe not critical enough) to be able to distinguish their superiority over the others. For 15/16 I was hampered by finding the flute a bit shrill - so musical considerations tended to fade a bit as time went on, and I didn't go on to listen to 17 (on the same disc). And 5 (my second listening to it) was lovely, but then so were all the others on that first CD. So I think in the first instance, until I get further up the learning curve, I'll go back to my scattergun approach of snaffling chocolates from the box,* regardless of where they come from.

(That said, I may never learn any better. I'm still in the position of melting helplessly in response to Mozart's 13th PC, even though the rest of the world tells me it's totally undistinguished and to be dismissed!)

*I'll let the absurdly mixed metaphor stand. I don't think one can snaffle anything (implying a taking-in) with a scattergun approach (implying a giving-out).

Sounds like a mixed bag for you there, Alan. I've always had to work hard to love the flute when it's prominent. That is one of the reasons that I like PI sound, since metal flutes are even more shrill than wooden ones. In truth, I haven't listened to that particular performance, having an abundance of riches for those works. My current favorite are the La Gaia Scienza disk that we looked at recently.

One thing about the trios is that their numbering is among the most bizarre of all the groups. Do have a care when looking for #5. I am talking about Hoboken 5, which is going to be #18. Whereas #5 is actually Hoboken 1 from 1757. All very confusing, but not my fault. I am here solely to serve. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 30, 2011, 04:21:01 AM

Gurn, I had no idea! And actually, I'll take this tangent elsewhere . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 30, 2011, 04:22:54 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 30, 2011, 04:21:01 AM
Gurn, I had no idea! And actually, I'll take this tangent elsewhere . . . .

About what, Karl? ???

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 30, 2011, 04:31:47 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 30, 2011, 04:22:54 AM
About what, Karl? ???

8)

About the flute. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,92.msg581039.html#msg581039)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 30, 2011, 04:34:24 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 30, 2011, 04:31:47 AM
About the flute. (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,92.msg581039.html#msg581039)

Yup, figured it out eventually and posted in your own. Well, stands to reason, if one has a favorite instrument, then there must be an equal and opposite, eh? :-X

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 30, 2011, 04:42:58 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 30, 2011, 04:34:24 AM
. . . Well, stands to reason, if one has a favorite instrument, then there must be an equal and opposite, eh? :-X

8)

A fallacy! Hah! : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on November 30, 2011, 06:02:06 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 29, 2011, 06:53:29 PM
Arkivmusic started a sale today on Helios--3 for $25, and additional for the same $8.33 (US).

17 CDs from the Goodman/Hanover Band set of FJH's symphonies are included. So naturally I ordered 16 of them (I already have the 17th, No. 70-72)

This doesn't include the full run, obviously. Anyone (Gurn!) know how many more CDs I need to look for to complete the set?

Thanks for this; I just added my missing items. I think Goodman's set is near the top of my list, mainly because I enjoy the continuo which seems to add a nice brittleness to the overall sound which I find pleasing. This is not to say that my Hogwood, or the partial sets of Weil or Minkowski are shoddy, just that after hearing the addition of the harpsichord - I really liked it.

Of course, I wish he had finished the cycle, especially I miss the ones numbered 26-41.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 30, 2011, 06:12:02 AM

Quote from: Arnold on November 30, 2011, 06:02:06 AM
Thanks for this; I just added my missing items. I think Goodman's set is near the top of my list, mainly because I enjoy the continuo which seems to add a nice brittleness to the overall sound which I find pleasing. This is not to say that my Hogwood, or the partial sets of Weil or Minkowski are shoddy, just that after hearing the addition of the harpsichord - I really liked it.

Of course, I wish he had finished the cycle, especially I miss the ones numbered 26-41.

:)

And I, the ones numbered 79-81... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on November 30, 2011, 06:28:05 AM

Year	Landon	Hob. XV	Key	Instruments	Notes
1757	1	37	F	Harpsichord, Violin & Cello
1757	2	C1	C	Harpsichord, Violin & Cello
1757	3		G	Harpsichord, Violin & Cello	Was Hoboken 14:6 but 1st violin part is missing
1757	4	39	F	Harpsichord, Violin & Cello
1757	5	1	g	Harpsichord, Violin & Cello
1757	6	40	F	Harpsichord, Violin & Cello
1757	7	41	G	Harpsichord, Violin & Cello
1757	10	35	A	Harpsichord, Violin & Cello
1757	11	34	E	Harpsichord, Violin & Cello
1760	12	36	Eb	Harpsichord, Violin & Cello
1757	13	38	Bb	Harpsichord, Violin & Cello
1760	14	f1	f	Harpsichord, Violin & Cello
?	15	deest	D	Harpsichord, Violin & Cello
1767	16		C	Harpsichord, Violin & Cello	Was Hob 14:C1 - Believed that 1st Violin part is lost, so was originally a div a 4, now a trio
1772	17	2	F	Harpsichord, Violin & Cello
1784	18	5	G	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello
1784	19	6	F	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello
1785	20	7	D	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello
1785	21	8	Bb	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello
1785	22	9	A	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello
1785	23	10	Eb	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello
1788	24	11	Eb	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello
1788	25	12	e	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello
1789	26	13	c	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello
1789	27	14	Ab	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello
1790	28	16	D	Fortepiano, Flute (or Violin) & Cello
1790	29	15	G	Fortepiano, Flute (or Violin) & Cello
1790	30	17	F	Fortepiano, Flute (or Violin) & Cello
1794	31	32	G	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello	Also published in Vienna as a violin sonata
1793	32	18	A	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello	Dedicated to Princess Maria Anna, wife of Prince Anton Esterházy
1793	33	19	g	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello	Dedicated to Princess Maria Anna, wife of Prince Anton Esterházy
1793	34	20	Bb	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello	Dedicated to Princess Maria Anna, wife of Prince Anton Esterházy
1794	35	21	C	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello	Dedicated to Princess Maria Josepha, wife of Prince Nicholas Esterházy
1794	36	22	Eb	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello	Dedicated to Princess Maria Josepha, wife of Prince Nicholas Esterházy
1794	37	23	d	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello	Dedicated to Princess Maria Josepha, wife of Prince Nicholas Esterházy
1795	38	24	D	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello	Dedicated to Rebecca Schröter
1795	39	25	G	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello	Dedicated to Rebecca Schröter
1795	40	26	f#	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello	Dedicated to Rebecca Schröter
1795	41	31	eb	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello
1796	42	30	Eb	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello
1796	43	27	C	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello	Bartolozzi Trios - Dedicated to Theresa Jansen
1796	44	28	E	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello	Bartolozzi Trios - Dedicated to Theresa Jansen
1796	45	29	Eb	Fortepiano, Violin & Cello	Bartolozzi Trios - Dedicated to Theresa Jansen

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on November 30, 2011, 06:30:59 AM

I did not tamper with the data except for marking the unknown year with one question mark instead of four and changing the column headers slightly. Please let me know if you find anything out of place.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 30, 2011, 06:34:17 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on November 30, 2011, 06:30:59 AM
I did not tamper with the data except for marking the unknown year with one question mark instead of four and changing the column headers slightly. Please let me know if you find anything out of place.

Ah, splendid! You da man!

Whenever I try to line stuff up like that, it looks like an earthquake hit it. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on November 30, 2011, 06:37:53 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 30, 2011, 06:34:17 AM
Whenever I try to line stuff up like that, it looks like an earthquake hit it. :D

8)

That's why I let the computer do it for me. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 30, 2011, 07:14:55 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on November 30, 2011, 06:37:53 AM
That's why I let the computer do it for me. ;)

Ah, wise ~~guy~~ man! :)

I'm hoping that amid all this other discussion, last night's update on 1767 didn't go unnoticed. Lots of music there, which many of you have mentioned the Stabat Mater for example....

1767 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg580948.html#msg580948)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on November 30, 2011, 09:10:20 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 30, 2011, 04:17:19 AM
One thing about the trios is that their numbering is among the most bizarre of all the groups. Do have a care when looking for #5. I am talking about Hoboken 5, which is going to be #18. Whereas #5 is actually Hoboken 1 from 1757. All very confusing, but not my fault. I am here solely to serve. :D

Well, I think I understand this (in the sense that I think I understand elementary quantum mechanics, the philosophy of David Hume, and the various ways to catch a boojum) but I shall inspect the box and the booklet and go through Navneeth's's list with them in hand (thanks Navneeth - that surely is service beyond the call of duty), to make sure I'm doing the right thing.

Phew.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on November 30, 2011, 09:15:50 AM

Ah, no, wait. I can already see I'm doing the right thing, because Nav's list (see below) gives the three flute trios as Hob 15/16/17 which is exactly what I assumed them to be. So my 5 really is Hob 5, and not 18. Ha!

Quote from: Opus106 on November 30, 2011, 06:28:05 AM

1790
28
16
D
Fortepiano, Flute (or Violin) & Cello
1790
29
15
G
Fortepiano, Flute (or Violin) & Cello
1790
30
17
F
Fortepiano, Flute (or Violin) & Cello

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 30, 2011, 09:19:34 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 30, 2011, 04:17:19 AM
. . . All very confusing, but not my fault.

Hey, I'm inclined to believe him!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on November 30, 2011, 12:38:29 PM

Wow. Thank you Gurn and Opus for that Trio rundown!

It...it, all suddenly seems so clear! :o ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on November 30, 2011, 06:03:19 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 30, 2011, 04:10:49 AM
No, actually, that IS the full run! They also did 2 disks on the Nimbus label, the one I rec'd the other day with #31 and the horn concertos by Joseph and Michael, and then the 2nd has #100 & 104 (I think). SO yeah, you're all good, Congratulations! :)

8)

That loud noise you heard just now is my checking account's sigh of relief.
Now to go hunt up those Nimbus CDs for future reference.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 30, 2011, 06:25:09 PM

Quote from: Leo K on November 30, 2011, 12:38:29 PM
Wow. Thank you Gurn and Opus for that Trio rundown!

It...it, all suddenly seems so clear! :o ;D

Wow, you must be worse off than you ever thought you were! :D

I must say though, that chart is clearer than anything I've ever read, I combined info from 3 or 4 different sources to make it. It just isn't an easy chronology to deal with. Once numbers are assigned, they are written in stone. :-\

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardDenglercover.jpg) Gudrun Dengler (Cembalo) - Hob 16_27 Sonata in G for Keyboard 2nd mvmt - Menuet

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 30, 2011, 06:26:49 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 30, 2011, 06:03:19 PM
That loud noise you heard just now is my checking account's sigh of relief.
Now to go hunt up those Nimbus CDs for future reference.

I got them both 'used' on AMP virtually new for <>$5 each. Within the last year. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on November 30, 2011, 08:46:46 PM

Quote from: Elgarian on November 30, 2011, 09:10:20 AM
[I shall] go through Navneeth's's list with them in hand (thanks Navneeth - that surely is service beyond the call of duty), to make sure I'm doing the right thing.

You're welcome, Alan; I'm glad the Haydnistos here find it useful, but to be fair, it's Gurn's list. :) He's the one who has put in the effort to untangle what's clearly non-untangleable for the faint of heart. Moreover, despite the high improbability of its happening, I don't want to be the one reprimanded by the spirit of H. C. Robbins Landon for getting a number or two wrong somewhere in that list. :-\ :D ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 01, 2011, 04:23:12 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on November 30, 2011, 08:46:46 PM
You're welcome, Alan; I'm glad the Haydnistos here find it useful, but to be fair, it's Gurn's list. :) He's the one who has put in the effort to untangle what's clearly non-untangleable for the faint of heart. Moreover, despite the high improbability of its happening, I don't want to be the one reprimanded by the spirit of H. C. Robbins Landon for getting a number or two wrong somewhere in that list. :-\ :D ;)

Aye, that's it; with the credit goes great responsibility. :D Well Texas is an awfully big place, I'm safe... ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on December 01, 2011, 08:02:37 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on October 22, 2010, 02:42:03 AM
What styles are you into?

It's not that easy to get just 68... but there are options, all of which have merits:

Hogwood (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000026C0H?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000026C0H) is OOP, me thinks. Fischer (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00000IOB8?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00000IOB8). Harnoncourt. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000095IVG?ie=UTF8&tag=goodmusicguide-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000095IVG)

I've been listening to 68 again recently and the more I listen the more I love the work.

The Hogwood/Harnoncourt contrast seems to me to really interesting, Hogwood elegant, refined; Harnoncourt much more comic. Is one of them more authentic in terms of style than the other?

In the adagio cantabile Hogwood finds some deeply humane music, very touching. The sort of humanity and depth of feeling which maybe I've (wrongly) associated more with Mozart than with Haydn. Harnoncourt doesn't quite touch me in the same way.

Nevertheless I think that the Harnoncourt recording is altogether more successful poetically than the Hogwood. Hogwood doesn't tell an interesting enough story in that long adagio, while Harnoncourt does: Harnoncourt is full of dramatic contrasts, the progress of the music has exciting twists and turns which keep me rapt.

Harnoncourt in the final movement is unforgettable -- the energy of it.

Let me know if you know any other interesting 68s. This is a symphony well worth exploring.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on December 01, 2011, 05:53:25 PM

Wow. Pinnock's account of Haydn's Stabat Mater is glorious and life affirming. What a piece of music, and how wonderful to know what good for Haydn's career this work was!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 01, 2011, 06:32:46 PM

Quote from: Leo K on December 01, 2011, 05:53:25 PM
Wow. Pinnock's account of Haydn's Stabat Mater is glorious and life affirming. What a piece of music, and how wonderful to know what good for Haydn's career this work was!

8)

It IS a great work, I listened to it just the other night and marveled at it's simple beauty. 0:)

That account of the Paris reception of the Stabat Mater came from this book:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/5177P5oz2aL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg)

When we get into the 1780's I will be recommending it. On the downside, it has a grueling chunk of analysis in it, way over MY head! On the upside, it has a really nice chunk of history in it, including the reception of the works, and things leading up to it (like why Haydn was popular already in Paris). For $6, can't go wrong. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
One of those very rare modern instrument disks, which I quite like;
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61d8TTWp8aL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) Kazuo Okumura (Violin) \ Hans Dusoswa (Viola) - Hob 06_02 Sonata in A for Violin & Viola 1st mvmt - Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 02, 2011, 09:37:11 AM

Saw this in the store to-day, any opinions?

[asin]B0002U9G9E[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 02, 2011, 09:42:02 AM

And: opinions on the Buchberger Quartet Brilliant box of The Lot?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on December 02, 2011, 09:48:05 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 02, 2011, 09:37:11 AM
Saw this in the store to-day, any opinions?

[asin]B0002U9G9E[/asin]

You didn't ask for facts, but here is one anyway: that one is a subset of the box show below. It's their entire (stereo) recordings of Haydn's works for string quartet recorded for DG.

[asin]B001QBXFSG[/asin]

Their earlier traversal of Viennese classical is part of DG's Original Masters series, which was later licensed to Brilliant Classics.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 02, 2011, 09:50:25 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 02, 2011, 09:37:11 AM
Saw this in the store to-day, any opinions?

[asin]B0002U9G9E[/asin]

Haven't heard them play Haydn, Karl, but if they are true to form, it will be rather Romanticized playing. Lots will like it... :)

Quote from: karlhenning on December 02, 2011, 09:42:02 AM
And: opinions on the Buchberger Quartet Brilliant box of The Lot?

Boy, I keep getting reminded to listen to those. Several here have done, opinion has been mixed (Sonic Dave really liked them, IIRC). After 2 years of sitting on the shelf, I guess they need to sit in the player for a while... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 02, 2011, 09:51:54 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on December 02, 2011, 09:48:05 AM
You didn't ask for facts, but here is one anyway: that one is a subset of the box show below. It's their entire (stereo) recordings of Haydn's works for string quartet recorded for DG.

[asin]B001QBXFSG[/asin]

Their earlier traversal of Viennese classical is part of DG's Original Masters series, which was later licensed to Brilliant Classics.

A most excellent fact, Nav, thank you!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 02, 2011, 09:53:36 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 02, 2011, 09:50:25 AM
Boy, I keep getting reminded to listen to those. Several here have done, opinion has been mixed (Sonic Dave really liked them, IIRC). After 2 years of sitting on the shelf, I guess they need to sit in the player for a while... :-\

8)

Hmm . . . I almost wonder, Gurn, if this very delay somehow signifies . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 02, 2011, 09:54:29 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 02, 2011, 09:50:25 AM
Haven't heard them play Haydn, Karl, but if they are true to form, it will be rather Romanticized playing. Lots will like it... :)

Reckon I'll need to sample me some sound-clips.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 02, 2011, 10:03:25 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 02, 2011, 09:53:36 AM
Hmm . . . I almost wonder, Gurn, if this very delay somehow signifies . . . .

I can't say yea or nay to that, Karl. Fact is, I got those as a throw-in in the Big Box. I don't need any more SQ's, so I haven't paid any mind. Plus, my two favorite opera are missing or partly missing, Opp 50 & 76. So the urge is just not there.... (they may be the best recordings ever made...).

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 02, 2011, 10:04:34 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 02, 2011, 09:54:29 AM
Reckon I'll need to sample me some sound-clips.

The only MI SQ's I ever liked, beyond the Carmina's Op 76, is the Tokyo SQ. YMMV. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 02, 2011, 10:12:03 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 02, 2011, 10:03:25 AM
I can't say yea or nay to that, Karl. Fact is, I got those as a throw-in in the Big Box. I don't need any more SQ's, so I haven't paid any mind. Plus, my two favorite opera are missing or partly missing, Opp 50 & 76. So the urge is just not there.... (they may be the best recordings ever made...).

8)

Ho capito. I saw in an Amazon review that the subset in The Grand Box was incomplete.

I suppose what I should do, before I yield to Alan's sirenesque susurrations, is listen afresh to the brace of late quartet discs I've got at home . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on December 02, 2011, 12:57:25 PM

Karl: If you do decide to pick up some more Haydn quartets and want modern instrument recordings, the single disc Kodaly Quartet recordings on Naxos would be worth looking into. The Op. 76 4, 5, and 6 disc (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-String-Quartets-Op-Nos/dp/B0000013OQ/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1322862755&sr=8-3) is wonderful and the reviews of other discs in the set indicate that they are great, too. Not to mention, the market place prices are generally pretty good if you wish to dip a toe in with a couple of discs at a time rather than a box set. And there are samples available.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on December 02, 2011, 01:48:02 PM

Quote from: Geo Dude on December 02, 2011, 12:57:25 PM
Karl: If you do decide to pick up some more Haydn quartets and want modern instrument recordings, the single disc Kodaly Quartet recordings on Naxos would be worth looking into. The Op. 76 4, 5, and 6 disc (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-String-Quartets-Op-Nos/dp/B0000013OQ/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1322862755&sr=8-3) is wonderful and the reviews of other discs in the set indicate that they are great, too. Not to mention, the market place prices are generally pretty good if you wish to dip a toe in with a couple of discs at a time rather than a box set. And there are samples available.

I have the exact opposite opinion of the Kodaly. I have the two CDs for Op. 76, and found them rather boring. Much prefer the other complete MI set I have of those works, from the Amadeus Qt. (with Op. 77 and 103).

For an MI performance, I would suggest the Jerusalem Quartet or the Lindsays, although (in the form I have them) they are not complete opera collected onto one CD, but rather "favorite" or "famous" quartets drawn from all over the cycle.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on December 02, 2011, 02:28:47 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 02, 2011, 09:54:29 AM
Reckon I'll need to sample me some sound-clips.

The ones I know are as follows. Kodalys are staid with somewhat distant recorded sound. Angeles are staid with cavernous sound. Lindsays are gung-ho and well recorded, but people other than me complain of their intonation and play-as-oneness. Their stuff is getting hard to find too. Mosaiques are somewhat staid with fine sound and HIP credentials. Of the others, I know naught.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on December 02, 2011, 02:52:45 PM

Quote from: chasmaniac on December 02, 2011, 02:28:47 PM
Mosaiques are somewhat staid with fine sound and HIP credentials.

May I quibble? I wouldn't say 'staid', myself. Struggling to find adjectives I'd try words like 'pure' or 'ethereal'. They're full of life but it's not the 'get-out-of my-way-and-bloody-well-listen-to-THIS' kind of life. It's more like the quietly vital essence of life; the rippling flow of it, rather than the in-yer-face-get-up-and-bop pulsation.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on December 02, 2011, 03:05:47 PM

Quote from: Elgarian on December 02, 2011, 02:52:45 PM
May I quibble? I wouldn't say 'staid', myself. Struggling to find adjectives I'd try words like 'pure' or 'ethereal'. They're full of life but it's not the 'get-out-of my-way-and-bloody-well-listen-to-THIS' kind of life. It's more like the quietly vital essence of life; the rippling flow of it, rather than the in-yer-face-get-up-and-bop pulsation.

I bow to the essential rippling flow of Elgarian's ethereal vocabulary. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on December 02, 2011, 03:08:15 PM

I very much like the Mosaiques, by the way. But I'm crazy for that hep Lindsay jive!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 02, 2011, 04:24:50 PM

Well, here goes a vote to endorse the acquisition of the Amadeus Quartet box. :)

I'm not too much objective because they were almost my introduction to these works, but they were able to wake up on me an ever increasing love for this music.

I wouldn't say that they play exactly an over-romanticized Haydn. It's clear that they are not HIP, but I would prefer to call pre-authentic his approach, with well chosen tempi; a severe, but warm interplay; not a lot of vibrato and enjoyable soundstage.

Anyway, I would recommend to avoid -at least initially- the Original Masters set (mono recordings) because of the aged sound quality. BTW, their interpretations include one of my favorite versions of the "Last Seven Words", ideal for their stern style.

My favorite performances are played on period instruments, but among the ensembles playing on modern instruments the Amadeus Quartet and currently the Tatrai Quartet clearly rank at the top of the choices.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 02, 2011, 06:37:27 PM

It's absolutely true, Gurn.

Although it's a bit late, it's weekend so, who knows, maybe I will watch that video again.

Over and out, dear Haydnistos. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on December 03, 2011, 12:45:40 AM

Corrected below:

Quote from: chasmaniac on December 02, 2011, 03:05:47 PM
I bow to the ~~essential~~ self-indulgent ~~rippling~~ burbling ~~flow~~ excesses of Elgarian's ~~ethereal~~ diarrhetic vocabulary. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on December 03, 2011, 08:57:08 AM

Gurn (and anyone else interested in helping): I'm working on building a Haydn instrumental collection and want to know where I should go next. I currently have a complete set of the keyboard works, the London symphonies, the QM string quartets box set, and the ten disc piano trios box set is in the mail. What other stuff should I be trying and which recordings are recommended? Only two restrictions in regards to recommendations: HIP required and box sets (or really cheap singles on the market place) preferred. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on December 03, 2011, 09:22:18 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on December 03, 2011, 08:57:08 AM
Gurn (and anyone else interested in helping): I'm working on building a Haydn instrumental collection and want to know where I should go next. I currently have a complete set of the keyboard works, the London symphonies, the QM string quartets box set, and the ten disc piano trios box set is in the mail. What other stuff should I be trying and which recordings are recommended? Only two restrictions in regards to recommendations: HIP required and box sets (or really cheap singles on the market place) preferred. :)

Other symphonies, from the so-called "Strum und Drang" period. Try the oratarios and masses. For the latter, there are sets from Harnoncourt (Das Alte Werke/Warner) and Weil/Tafelmusik (Vivarte/Sony), which satisfy both your conditions. If you go a couple dozen pages or so back in this thread, you will find a discussion on recordings of his most famous oratorio, The Creation.

That's just for starters; I'm sure the Haydnistos will offer more precise and well-informed opinions on the recordings themselves. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 03, 2011, 10:33:58 AM

I agree with the Stürm und Dräng idea completely. It is an entirely different phase in Haydn's compositional process. To start with, I would recommend this box here;

[asin]B00004SA85[/asin]

There are a lot of reasons to like it, not least of which is that you don't have to sell 12 goats to be able to afford it. If you search "sturm und drang haydn" on Amazon, you find, for example, that Brüggen box for $192, which has the same symphonies as this box has, and the performances are nearly indistinguishable. However, do avoid the "Morning, Noon & Night Symphonies" disk by the same forces. It was very early times when they did that one, and it sounds like Pinnock was trying to figure out what the heck to do. Not true of the S & D's though. :)

I know Navneeth recommends the masses, and you specifically said 'just instrumental', but if you change your mind, you might consider the Naxos box too. I got it just last week after constant badgering by unnamed Hausrezidents, and what I have heard so far is very impressive. :)

More later, gotta think, gotta think.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on December 03, 2011, 10:46:22 AM

Thanks for the info provided thus far. I do plan to look into Haydn's choral works, of course, I'm just trying to keep it 'simple' (that word must be used loosely with a composer as prolific as Haydn) right now by sticking to instrumental stuff.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on December 03, 2011, 11:34:14 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on December 03, 2011, 08:57:08 AM
Gurn (and anyone else interested in helping): I'm working on building a Haydn instrumental collection and want to know where I should go next. I currently have a complete set of the keyboard works, the London symphonies, the QM string quartets box set, and the ten disc piano trios box set is in the mail. What other stuff should I be trying and which recordings are recommended? Only two restrictions in regards to recommendations: HIP required and box sets (or really cheap singles on the market place) preferred. :)

You didn't mention 4s, dude. The 2 Mosaiques boxes are recommended. Also any of the Bis boxes. This gives you maximum bang for the buck:

[asin]B001RL8WYC[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 03, 2011, 11:43:48 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on December 03, 2011, 11:34:14 AM
You didn't mention 4s, dude. The 2 Mosaiques boxes are recommended. Also any of the Bis boxes. This gives you maximum bang for the buck:

[asin]B001RL8WYC[/asin]
&
[asin]B004M3PTWA[/asin]
edit: Amazon's picture is bad, I guess
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnEarlyDivertimenticover.jpg)

give you a huge amount of everything-but-symphonies orchestral type music. Combined 11 disks worth, they are expensive at that, but a bargain in the sense that the music can not be found elsewhere complete like this. Some of it can be found scattered across a dozen or more different disks, but all of it is simply not recorded aside from this. I have no regrets at all about that expenditure! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on December 03, 2011, 11:46:01 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on December 03, 2011, 11:34:14 AM
You didn't mention 4s, dude. The 2 Mosaiques boxes are recommended. Also any of the Bis boxes. This gives you maximum bang for the buck:

[asin]B001RL8WYC[/asin]

Thanks for the box set tip.

4s?

Any tips on chamber music I haven't tried yet?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on December 03, 2011, 11:55:46 AM

The Dennis Russell Davies box of Haydn's Symphonies continues to impress. The sound is mastered naturally, with good bass, air around the intruments, and the performances themselves very moving, fun, and exciting.

I'm skipping ahead (alittle) towards the "Sturm und Drang" period, the major key ones at the moment are making my day! IN particular, right now I'm enjoying Symphony No.41 (box uses traditional numbering) in C Major. Very nice!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 03, 2011, 11:56:42 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on December 03, 2011, 11:46:01 AM
Thanks for the box set tip.

4s?

Any tips on chamber music I haven't tried yet?

4tets (quartets). I think he overlooked your QM reference. :)

Here's a disk that is rarely recommended, but only because not too many people are familiar with the music. It will certainly come up in the 1769 installment of the Chronology though, since I am really quite keen on it.

[asin]B002DYLU0A[/asin]

In the Big Box, this shows up as duos for Violin & Cello, however, those are arrangements, and not by Haydn.

Then there are these divertimentos of Hob IV, which are trios for violin, flute (or 2 flutes) & cello. They aren't included in any other box shown so far. He wrote these for publication in England in the early 1780's when he thought even then that he might go there one day.

[asin]B00400B1KY[/asin]

Very nice playing on these. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 03, 2011, 01:23:55 PM

Part 17

1768

This year was pretty much 1767 part deux in terms of further adventures. The routine that was to prevail for the next 25 years became established early on; Esterházy from earliest springtime until November, then to Eisenstadt/Vienna for the rest of the year. Despite the seclusion though, Haydn's fame continued to spread. And the Prince was pleased with that, since any fame garnered by his Kapellmeister was also a direct reflection on his own good taste. Here is the music of 1768, along with (for you folks new to this series) my choice of recorded performances to go with it.

The music of 1768:

Hob 01a_10 Overture to Lo Speziale: Sinfonia in G (Many overtures were published separately at a later date, some only with their opera/oratorio)
Manfred Huss / Haydn Sinfonietta Wien
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnOverturescover.jpg)

Hob 01_26 Symphony in d
La Petite Bande / Kuijken
Hob 01_041 Symphony #41 in C
Tafelmusik / Bruno Weil
Hob 01_049 Symphony in f
Hob 01_059 Symphony in A
L'Estro Armonico / Solomons
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/WallfischviolinandSCcover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnWeilSymphoniesboxcover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSolomons35-38-39-49-58-59cover.jpg)

Hob 10_09 Sonata in D for 2 Barytons & 2 Horns
Esterhazy Ensemble
Hob 10_10 Quintet in D for Baryton, Winds & Strings
Ricercar Consort
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Completebarytontrioscover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/RicercarIcover.jpg)

Hob 11_052 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_053 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_054 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_055 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_056 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_057 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_058 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_059 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_060 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_061 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_062 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_063 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_064 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_065 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_066 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_067 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_068 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_069 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_070 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_071 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Hob 11_072 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 3
Esterhazy Ensemble
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Completebarytontrioscover.jpg)

Hob 16_46 Sonata #31 in Ab for Keyboard
Paul Badura-Skoda
Hob 17_deest Fragment in D for Keyboard
Christine Schornsheim
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardBaduraSkodacover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardSchornsheimHaydn.jpg)

Hob 22_02 Missa "Sunt bona mixta malis" (fragment)
Tafelmusik / Bruno Weil
Hob 22_04 Missa in honorem BVM
Rebel Baroque Orchestra / Burdick
Hob 23a_01 Offertorium "Non nobis, Domine"
Tafelmusik / Bruno Weil

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnWeilMassesCompletecover-1.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/51Yh1Av-J4L.jpg)

Hob 24a_06 Cantata "Applausus Jubileum Virtutis Palatium"
Capella Augustina / A. Spering Palimina / de Liso / Weisser / Wolf
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Applaususcover.jpg)

Hob 26a_37 Lied with Keyboard 'Beim Schmerz, Der Dieses Herz Durchwuhlet'
Elly Ameling / Jorg Demus
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnAmelingDemusSongscover.jpg)

Hob 28_03 Opera "Lo Speziale" (Der Apotheker)
Deutsches Kammerakademie / Goritzki
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/DerApotheker.jpg)

Wow, no taking it easy now! That is <> 5 symphonies, an opera, a Neapolitan cantata, 22 works for Baryton, 2 masses and a couple of other pieces of sacred music, his first known accompanied lied, and some solo keyboard work. And as we know, composing was only a relatively small part of his job. I think that the early years at Esterházy provided some solid inspiration for Haydn. He had continually improved the band, his music was appreciated, he was alone at the top. He was probably at the peak of his life in terms of continual inspiration.

We are solidly into what his early biographers called "The Romantic Crisis", but which more recently we call the Stürm und Dräng period. This we will see holds true not only for the symphonic output (look at these from this year alone!), but also for his solo keyboard works, and next year for much of his Op 9 string quartet work too. It is safe to say that he is fully entered into the first great period of his maturity, and at 36 years old, he has mastered his tools to an extent that they can keep up with the genius of his compositional spirit. The greatest composer of his, or most other, time is finally emerging.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on December 03, 2011, 02:14:03 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 03, 2011, 11:56:42 AM
Here's a disk that is rarely recommended, but only because not too many people are familiar with the music. It will certainly come up in the 1769 installment of the Chronology though, since I am really quite keen on it.

[asin]B002DYLU0A[/asin]

This is a great disc. Just so happens I listened to it this morning. I must have my Gurnometer synchronized!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 03, 2011, 02:52:17 PM

Quote from: chasmaniac on December 03, 2011, 02:20:53 PM
A note about this before it gets away. I'm lucky to have access to a local bricks-and-mortar classical music shop. They phoned me today to tell me that some orders had come in, and when I asked about this box they had it in stock. So it's been added to the pile I'm picking up tomorrow. Guilty, :-[. I feel so guilty! :D

Chas, you're gonna love it. Fascinating commentary, excellent playing, Haydn's music... what more can you ask? :)

Quote from: chasmaniac on December 03, 2011, 02:14:03 PM
This is a great disc. Just so happens I listened to it this morning. I must have my Gurnometer synchronized!

I hope that Geo will have a go at it. It is good music and very well played. I've always liked these 6 works, even when I only had the cello version. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 03, 2011, 02:56:08 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 03, 2011, 01:23:55 PM
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/51Yh1Av-J4L.jpg)

Hey, Gurn. I see you have been listening to some mass from the Naxos box. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on December 03, 2011, 03:07:17 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 02, 2011, 04:24:50 PM
Well, here goes a vote to endorse the acquisition of the Amadeus Quartet box. :)

I'm not too much objective because they were almost my introduction to these works, but they were able to wake up on me an ever increasing love for this music.

I wouldn't say that they play exactly an over-romanticized Haydn. It's clear that they are not HIP, but I would prefer to call pre-authentic his approach, with well chosen tempi; a severe, but warm interplay; not a lot of vibrato and enjoyable soundstage.

Anyway, I would recommend to avoid -at least initially- the Original Masters set (mono recordings) because of the aged sound quality. BTW, their interpretations include one of my favorite versions of the "Last Seven Words", ideal for their stern style.

My favorite performances are played on period instruments, but among the ensembles playing on modern instruments the Amadeus Quartet and currently the Tatrai Quartet clearly rank at the top of the choices.

8)

Agreed on all counts, even down to the point that this set was also my introduction to these works; on LPs - which I liked enough to transfer to CD and upload to my iTunes library.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 03, 2011, 03:09:56 PM

Quote from: Geo Dude on December 03, 2011, 08:57:08 AM
Gurn (and anyone else interested in helping): I'm working on building a Haydn instrumental collection and want to know where I should go next. I currently have a complete set of the keyboard works, the London symphonies, the QM string quartets box set, and the ten disc piano trios box set is in the mail. What other stuff should I be trying and which recordings are recommended? Only two restrictions in regards to recommendations: HIP required and box sets (or really cheap singles on the market place) preferred. :)

These sets can be recommended with confidence:

[asin]B00004TQQS[/asin][asin]B000031WJC[/asin][asin]B00000J2PW[/asin][asin]B001TQ1KBW[/asin]

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 03, 2011, 03:14:50 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 03, 2011, 03:09:56 PM
These sets can be recommended with confidence:

[asin]B00004TQQS[/asin][asin]B000031WJC[/asin][asin]B00000J2PW[/asin][asin]B001TQ1KBW[/asin]

:)

Happily seconded. You have seen a couple of them in my recs (even today!) and will see more as time goes by. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 03, 2011, 03:22:26 PM

Quote from: Arnold on December 03, 2011, 03:07:17 PM
Agreed on all counts, even down to the point that this set was also my introduction to these works; on LPs - which I liked enough to transfer to CD and upload to my iTunes library.

:)

Excellent! I don't have any of their recordings in my Ipod, so I think I will copy your idea. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on December 03, 2011, 05:07:23 PM

Thanks for the recommendations. I am definitely interested in the violin and viola duo disc. I'll make a point of adding the late masses disc and The Creation oratorio to my next vocal order.

By the way, Gurn, head over to the Purchases Today thread to see another order that is your fault. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on December 03, 2011, 06:09:51 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 03, 2011, 11:43:48 AM
[asin]B001RL8WYC[/asin]

I liked the Divertimenti box so well I ordered that one from MDT right away. It's in transit to me now.

And in today's mail arrived the Mosaiques recording of Opp. 64 and 76, and the London Haydn Quartet recording of Op. 17 (with Op. 9 coming in a separate package).

That's on top of ordering the Goodman set of symphonies, and the stuff already in "listen to" pile.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 03, 2011, 06:13:44 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 03, 2011, 06:09:51 PM
I liked the Divertimenti box so well I ordered that one from MDT right away. It's in transit to me now.

And in today's mail arrived the Mosaiques recording of Opp. 64 and 76, and the London Haydn Quartet recording of Op. 17 (with Op. 9 coming in a separate package).

That's on top of ordering the Goodman set of symphonies, and the stuff already in "listen to" pile.

Ah, Jeffrey, Jeffrey, Jeffrey! You are gonna be in listening heaven for quite some time to come, I think. That listening pile has some of my favorite music in it. Bon appetit! :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnConcertosDantoneMontanaricover.jpg) Accademia Bizantina \ Dantone Montanari (Violin) \ Dantone (Cembalo) - Hob 18_06 Concerto in F for Violin & Keyboard 2nd mvmt - Largo

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on December 04, 2011, 12:33:23 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 03, 2011, 03:09:56 PM
These sets can be recommended with confidence:

[asin]B000031WJC[/asin][asin]B00000J2PW[/asin]

In the multipage stream of recommended recordings (nearly all of which I neither have, nor have even been aware of their existence, to such an extent that I'm rendered giddy and incapable of posting anything) suddenly two pop up where I can say: 'Yes'!

Those Kuijken Paris symphonies represented my first PI peeping outside the Pinnock Sturm & Drang box, and made me realise that there was indeed symphonic Haydnistic life outside it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on December 04, 2011, 08:10:59 AM

Quote from: GurnatronWe are solidly into what his early biographers called "The Romantic Crisis", but which more recently we call the Stürm und Dräng period. This we will see holds true not only for the symphonic output (look at these from this year alone!), but also for his solo keyboard works, and next year for much of his Op 9 string quartet work too. It is safe to say that he is fully entered into the first great period of his maturity, and at 36 years old, he has mastered his tools to an extent that they can keep up with the genius of his compositional spirit. The greatest composer of his, or most other, time is finally emerging.

I didn't know about Op.9! I happened to just receive the Kodaly Quartet (two discs on Naxos) playing the op.9, and will have to listen soon. I never realized how enjoyable, entertaining, and musically satisfying haydn's early quartets could be until very recently...but better late than never ;)

Also, I've been introduced now to these works, thanks to this series Gurn:

Hob 01_041 Symphony #41 in C
Hob 01_049 Symphony in f
Hob 01_059 Symphony in A

Wow, wow, and wow again. I am in symphony heaven, and swimming in 18th century bliss right now.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on December 04, 2011, 08:15:07 AM

Also, I haven't heard Hob 22_02 Missa "Sunt bona mixta malis" (fragment) yet, but really want to explore this fragment after reading Landon's thoughts in my favorite Haydn book,

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51OtO2AEMKL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on December 04, 2011, 08:32:16 AM

Man, I LOVE what I'm hearing here...

Hob 16_46 Sonata #31 in Ab for Keyboard

I'm listening to Richard Brautigam's account on BIS. This sonata is quite an epic work in the amazing key of Ab Major. The first movement alone runs around 12 minutes!

Haydn is far and away my preferred composer of solo fortepiano/cembalo sonatas. I love fortepiano/cembalo sonatas from so many classical era composers, but Haydn is the sun (for me).

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 04, 2011, 08:43:41 AM

Quote from: Leo K on December 04, 2011, 08:10:59 AM
I didn't know about Op.9! I happened to just receive the Kodaly Quartet (two discs on Naxos) playing the op.9, and will have to listen soon. I never realized how enjoyable, entertaining, and musically satisfying haydn's early quartets could be until very recently...but better late than never ;)

Also, I've been introduced now to these works, thanks to this series Gurn:

Hob 01_041 Symphony #41 in C
Hob 01_049 Symphony in f
Hob 01_059 Symphony in A

Wow, wow, and wow again. I am in symphony heaven, and swimming in 18th century bliss right now.

8)

I am so pleased that you have become an Haydnisto! There is just so much here to listen and enjoy. I have all of these on my computer, of course, and I can just double-click anywhere and have no fear of going wrong.

I see you liked the "Fire" Symphony. A major was a great key, not only for Haydn, but also for Mozart. Somehow it seemed to inspire composers to greater heights. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/1790v4.jpg) Trio 1790 - Hob 15_22 Trio in Eb 3rd mvmt - Finale: Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 04, 2011, 08:51:27 AM

Quote from: Leo K on December 04, 2011, 08:15:07 AM
Also, I haven't heard Hob 22_02 Missa "Sunt bona mixta malis" (fragment) yet, but really want to explore this fragment after reading Landon's thoughts in my favorite Haydn book,

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51OtO2AEMKL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg)

8)

Leo, unless I am sadly mistaken (and I have been before), that book is the first edition of this book:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41TOMTLPjQL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg)

which was updated and released in 2009. It is the one that I use for lots of my chronology issue resolutions, for example, and also for definitions. It is a great book. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/1790v4.jpg) Trio 1790 - Hob 15_23 Trio in d 1st mvmt - Molto andante

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on December 04, 2011, 09:18:01 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 04, 2011, 08:51:27 AM
Leo, unless I am sadly mistaken (and I have been before), that book is the first edition of this book:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41TOMTLPjQL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg)

which was updated and released in 2009. It is the one that I use for lots of my chronology issue resolutions, for example, and also for definitions. It is a great book. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/1790v4.jpg) Trio 1790 - Hob 15_23 Trio in d 1st mvmt - Molto andante

Well! I'll be darn...I didn't know there was an updated version of this book! How exciting to know! All these years I've been carrying around my first edition and not knowing it was updated...all this time!

8)

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 04, 2011, 08:43:41 AM
I am so pleased that you have become an Haydnisto! There is just so much here to listen and enjoy. I have all of these on my computer, of course, and I can just double-click anywhere and have no fear of going wrong.

I see you liked the "Fire" Symphony. A major was a great key, not only for Haydn, but also for Mozart. Somehow it seemed to inspire composers to greater heights. :)

I love that key, and I believe it was reading Alfred Einstein's Mozart book that made me aware of the importance of key and key relationships. Mozart's A major Symphony (#29) made me acutely aware of the key of A Major, as did Mozart's Clarinet concerto.

Now, it's fascinating to hear what other classical-era composers do with A Major and other keys.

Take minor keys for instance. It's a mystery to me why Mozart composed only two minor key symphonies, while Haydn and Vanhal (to name a few) dipped freely into the minor key pool for inspiration. Perhaps it comes down to practical matters, i.e., commissions and what was needed for a performance? It seems Haydn dropped off writing in the minor key in his symphonies in his later period, with only the C Minor for his London series. Interesting to ponder!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 04, 2011, 09:40:58 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 03, 2011, 03:09:56 PM
These sets can be recommended with confidence:

[asin]B000031WJC[/asin][asin]B00000J2PW[/asin]
:)

I have to majorly disagree here. I cannot think of any worse Haydn performances that I have ever heard, particularly the first disc (which is actually two discs). They are far too severe (for my tastes), and I cannot hear the spirit of Haydn here. It is because of these recordings that I generally stay away from Kuijkin, fearing that he will do to other composers what he did to Haydn. And it is not so much a question of instrumentation, but one of interpretation I think. Sorry guys (and gals)...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on December 04, 2011, 09:41:16 AM

Right now I'm reading an interesting interview, an interview with H.C. Robbins Landon (his last), found here:

http://www.earlymusicworld.com/id29.html

Here are some quotes I really enjoyed:

"Let me tell you a new story you won't know – Haydn conducting the "Coronation" Mass [K317]. Now why would he be doing that at Eisenstadt? He was doing that because his princess [Princess Marie Hermenegeld, the wife of Haydn's patron Prince Nicolaus Esterházy] had heard the Mass at the coronation in Prague in 1791 and she obviously thought it so marvellous that she asked Haydn to get hold of a copy. So Haydn went to Constanze and asked her for a copy, which he obviously paid for. It was done at Eisenstadt, where it was a huge success."

And on his discovery of Haydn, Landon says:

"In 1939, when I was 15 [recte 13] years old. During the 1939-1940 season a series of broadcast concerts conducted by Fritz Stiedry in New York introduced a number of resuscitated Haydn symphonies, most of which had never been heard there before. At the time I was at Asheville School in North Carolina and my music teacher there was a guy called Mathias Cooper. I told him of my great enthusiasm for these Haydn symphonies and that I would love to work in music. He told me that if that was the case I should certainly concentrate on Haydn. So I asked him "Why Haydn?" and he told me that Haydn needed a Gesamtausgabe. I said, "What's a Gesamtausgabe?". He explained that it was a complete edition of a composer's works and everyone has one: Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, even Buxtehude. But not Haydn. I asked him why and he told me that forty years ago the German publisher Breitkopf and Härtel started to collect all Haydn's works, but got bogged down. It was too expensive and nobody cared. So that was what I had to do and he'd show me why. Whereupon he got out a brand new recording of Beecham conducting Symphony No. 93. We listened to it and I said, "Professor, you mean there are more symphonies like this? They must be out of their minds!". He said, "Exactly!". "

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 04, 2011, 10:13:00 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 04, 2011, 09:40:58 AM
I have to majorly disagree here. I cannot think of any worse Haydn performances that I have ever heard, particularly the first disc (which is actually two discs). They are far too severe (for my tastes), and I cannot hear the spirit of Haydn here. It is because of these recordings that I generally stay away from Kuijkin, fearing that he will do to other composers what he did to Haydn. And it is not so much a question of instrumentation, but one of interpretation I think. Sorry guys (and gals)...

I think the problem lies not with Kuijken, but with the players. I can't remember another disk where he led someone other than La Petite Bande, and they always produce what is to me a nice, warm sound. I have their London Symphonies as well as the 'Chunnel' set shown here and they have quite a different sound than the OAE.

My favorite set of the Paris Symphonies is this one:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHarnoncourtPariscover.jpg)

But to get to your actual complaint, things like 'severity', 'dryness', 'cold'... I think those are subjective feelings that may be very real to that particular listener, but may not be universal. That's why you rarely see an adjective in my feedback; I usually say I either liked it or I didn't like it, I always think no one else can feel the same way I do about it. :-\

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnOp09Festeticscover.jpg) Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03_22 Quartet in d for Strings Op. 9 #4 1st mvmt - Moderato

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 04, 2011, 10:18:56 AM

Quote from: Leo K on December 04, 2011, 09:41:16 AM
Right now I'm reading an interesting interview, an interview with H.C. Robbins Landon (his last), found here:

http://www.earlymusicworld.com/id29.html

Here are some quotes I really enjoyed:

"Let me tell you a new story you won't know – Haydn conducting the "Coronation" Mass [K317]. Now why would he be doing that at Eisenstadt? He was doing that because his princess [Princess Marie Hermenegeld, the wife of Haydn's patron Prince Nicolaus Esterházy] had heard the Mass at the coronation in Prague in 1791 and she obviously thought it so marvellous that she asked Haydn to get hold of a copy. So Haydn went to Constanze and asked her for a copy, which he obviously paid for. It was done at Eisenstadt, where it was a huge success."

And on his discovery of Haydn, Landon says:

"In 1939, when I was 15 [recte 13] years old. During the 1939-1940 season a series of broadcast concerts conducted by Fritz Stiedry in New York introduced a number of resuscitated Haydn symphonies, most of which had never been heard there before. At the time I was at Asheville School in North Carolina and my music teacher there was a guy called Mathias Cooper. I told him of my great enthusiasm for these Haydn symphonies and that I would love to work in music. He told me that if that was the case I should certainly concentrate on Haydn. So I asked him "Why Haydn?" and he told me that Haydn needed a Gesamtausgabe. I said, "What's a Gesamtausgabe?". He explained that it was a complete edition of a composer's works and everyone has one: Mozart, Beethoven, Brahms, even Buxtehude. But not Haydn. I asked him why and he told me that forty years ago the German publisher Breitkopf and Härtel started to collect all Haydn's works, but got bogged down. It was too expensive and nobody cared. So that was what I had to do and he'd show me why. Whereupon he got out a brand new recording of Beecham conducting Symphony No. 93. We listened to it and I said, "Professor, you mean there are more symphonies like this? They must be out of their minds!". He said, "Exactly!". "

8)

Nice story! I always knew (from somewhere... Mozart lit?) that some of his music was played at Eisenstadt, but not any back story about it.

Robbins-Landon was certainly the right man in the right place at the right time. Haydn research would still be in the Dark Ages if he hadn't come along. Next time I have an extra thousand laying around, I am finally going to get Haydn: Chronicle & Works. Everything we see today is based out of that set of books, no matter that there are amendments based on later research or whatever. It is the factual foundation for everything we know! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 04, 2011, 10:20:11 AM

Quote from: Leo K on December 04, 2011, 09:18:01 AM
I love that key, and I believe it was reading Alfred Einstein's Mozart book that made me aware of the importance of key and key relationships. Mozart's A major Symphony (#29) made me acutely aware of the key of A Major, as did Mozart's Clarinet concerto.

What, no love for the K.581? ; )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 04, 2011, 10:22:20 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 04, 2011, 10:20:11 AM
What, no love for the K.581? ; )

:) I like it, Karl. Nothing like a good clarinet quintet to start your day. And hard to find a nicer one. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 04, 2011, 10:25:17 AM

Quote from: Leo K on December 04, 2011, 09:41:16 AM
[...] And on his discovery of Haydn, Landon says:

"In 1939, when I was 15 [recte 13] years old. During the 1939-1940 season a series of broadcast concerts conducted by Fritz Stiedry in New York introduced a number of resuscitated Haydn symphonies, most of which had never been heard there before[....]"

So really we've all got the St Petersburg Conservatory to thank for this, haven't we? Haydn was a staple in the conducting course at the Conservatory, hence Prokofiev's taking "Papa" for a model in the "Classical" Symphony. Fritz Stiedry came from that environment (it was Stiedry who conducted the anxiety-inducing rehearsals of Shostakovich's Fourth Symphony, until the composer withdrew the piece).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 04, 2011, 10:32:59 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 04, 2011, 10:25:17 AM
So really we've all got the St Petersburg Conservatory to thank for this, haven't we? Haydn was a staple in the conducting course at the Conservatory, hence Prokofiev's taking "Papa" for a model in the "Classical" Symphony. Fritz Stiedry came from that environment (it was Stiedry who conducted the anxiety-inducing rehearsals of Shostakovich's Fourth Symphony, until the composer withdrew the piece).

Actually, Haydn never disappeared from Conservatory classrooms throughout Europe, all through the 19th & 20th century. In the 19th, his works were considered dated so not suitable for concertizing, but they were generally acknowledged as being so wonderfully well-done that they were textbook examples of how to compose. Odd, i'n'it? :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on December 04, 2011, 10:42:29 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 04, 2011, 09:40:58 AM
I have to majorly disagree here. I cannot think of any worse Haydn performances that I have ever heard, particularly the first disc (which is actually two discs). They are far too severe (for my tastes), and I cannot hear the spirit of Haydn here. It is because of these recordings that I generally stay away from Kuijkin, fearing that he will do to other composers what he did to Haydn. And it is not so much a question of instrumentation, but one of interpretation I think. Sorry guys (and gals)...

Hmm, I love those Kuijken Paris recordings, although on their own merits (my other favourite is Ansermet). I find them more delicate than frigid. Who do you prefer in these works?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on December 04, 2011, 11:36:14 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 04, 2011, 10:20:11 AM
What, no love for the K.581? ; )

;) Oh yeah, I should'nt forget that'n! I didn't appreciate K.581 until alittle later in my Mozart journey :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 04, 2011, 12:00:02 PM

Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevna Pettersson on December 04, 2011, 10:42:29 AM
Hmm, I love those Kuijken Paris recordings, although on their own merits (my other favourite is Ansermet). I find them more delicate than frigid. Who do you prefer in these works?

I have the Fischer set, which I enjoy. I don't really collect these anymore as the Fischer (complete) covers most bases well (I had gotten the Kuijkin first). My library has several of the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra releases, which I enjoy. For the London symphonies, I like Davis. But I like most of the versions I have heard over the years (PI or big band), which is why I was so surprised by the Kuijkin. I used to think these symphonies were almost 'fail' proof.

I think there are one (and a half :)) major reasons I dislike them though: The string sound, which I find fatiguing - too bright and aggressive. I listen on earphones for the most part, if that matters. So it starts off more or less ok, but within a minute or two I am starting to pull my hair out! When I put on the Fischer version, I hear a few major differences: 1) A more resonant sound, 2) A warmer sound (meaning the strings are less strident), 3) the attacks/entrances are softer, and 4) There is no harpsichord/continuo (or whatever it is that Kuijkin is using). I also feel that the Fischer is much more nuanced in phrasing (while the Kuijkin is more straight ahead and get the hell out of the way). In this particular comparison, I did not go further than the first movement of #82, but based just on thus movement, delicate is not what comes to mind (though it does for Fischer).

Actually, while I was typing I listened to the second movement (most of it). And this reminds me of another issue - Kuijkin as Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde. As driving and relentless as the first movement is, I feel the second movement is limpid and overly slow, so much that it loses the pulse of Haydn. And the differentiation here seems weak (phrasing and loudness). But the harshness is reduced by the nature of the movement, so I am more or less ok with this movement in terms of the sound.

Anyway, sorry to go on and bash a favorite of yours. I tried to provide some details though so that there was some explanation behind it. It is also very possible that the harpsichord is part of the problem for me - I don't generally like the instrument played as a solo, but I usually don't find it an issue when there are other instruments playing (for example, no problem in most operas that have it, thinking here of Mozart). But it is a possibility.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on December 04, 2011, 01:21:11 PM

Interesting, isn't it? I enjoyed those Kuijken recordings so much, right from the start, that I felt no need to seek out any others. So I can't discourse knowledgeably about them in relation to alternatives, because I haven't heard any alternatives!

I might become worried that I just slurp up any old thing uncritically, if it were not for the fact that I very much disliked the acclaimed Davis set of London symphonies, completely wasting my money on them. Not because I want to dislike the Davis, but just to prove to myself I'm not some sort of Haydnistic dustbin.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 04, 2011, 01:36:03 PM

Quote from: Elgarian on December 04, 2011, 01:21:11 PM
Interesting, isn't it? I enjoyed those Kuijken recordings so much, right from the start, that I felt no need to seek out any others. So I can't discourse knowledgeably about them in relation to alternatives, because I haven't heard any alternatives!

I might become worried that I just slurp up any old thing uncritically, if it were not for the fact that I very much disliked the acclaimed Davis set of London symphonies, completely wasting my money on them. Not because I want to dislike the Davis, but just to prove to myself I'm not some sort of Haydnistic dustbin.

I always marvel at the variety of tastes when it comes to music performance. Which is why I reiterate in my own essays that I am posting what I like, not necessarily what you will like. As for the set in question; I like it, but I don't love it. If it was all I had, I wouldn't feel the least deprived. I have seen some sharp criticism of MY choice there, the Harnoncourt. Just goes to show. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on December 04, 2011, 01:54:35 PM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 04, 2011, 12:00:02 PM
Anyway, sorry to go on and bash a favorite of yours.

Hehe, I prefer it to praise - it's more interesting. The moment you mentioned headphones I got a lightbulb over my head, as the sound is a little unforgiving even on speakers, and I can definitely understand that as a factor.

I think that I might value legato less than you (I hope that I'm using the right term), as the general "poise" of the performances was what drew my attention, perhaps to the extent that I didn't focus on the way the notes themselves were articulated. During fast movements it was a non-issue, but even in slow movements, rather than missing a long-line (which I agree Fischer brings out very well with his performance style), I was instead listening to the interplay - maybe even pointalistically.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on December 05, 2011, 03:08:50 AM

Any recommendations on a PI set of the London symphonies? Gurn has previously recommended Minkowski's recording, so I'm aware of that one. I'd like to see what the other options are.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 05, 2011, 03:45:14 AM

So the Op.103 quartet is incomplete? (Or is that just Wiki-sludge?) ; )

Say, Gurn . . . not to de-rail your savory, gradual chronology . . . but do you have a compact-ish sidebar which gives an overview of the Haydn opus numeration/logic?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 05, 2011, 04:21:02 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 05, 2011, 03:45:14 AM
So the Op.103 quartet is incomplete? (Or is that just Wiki-sludge?) ; )

Say, Gurn . . . not to de-rail your savory, gradual chronology . . . but do you have a compact-ish sidebar which gives an overview of the Haydn opus numeration/logic?

You mean string quartets only? Because I don't really know the others at all. Plus, don't want to expect logic here because the publishing situation in those days was anarchy; thus all over the map! But I can give you the straight poop by the standards. Once again, if Navneeth wants to reformat, that will be great!

Year   Hob #   Opus #   Quartet #   Key   Notes
1757/59   1   1 #1   1   Bb
1757/59   2   1 #2   2   Eb
1757/59   3   1 #3   3   D
1757/59   4   1 #4   4   G
1757/59      0   5   Eb   Was originally classified as Hob 2:6
1757/59   6   1 #6   6   C
1760/62   7   2 #1   7   A
1760/62   8   2 #2   8   E
1760/62   10   2 #4   9   F
1760/62   12   2 #6   10   Bb
1769/70   22   9 #4   11   d   6 Divertimentos
1769/70   19   9 #1   12   C   Quartet number indicates probable order of composition
1769/70   21   9 #3   13   G
1769/70   20   9 #2   14   Eb
1769/70   23   9 #5   15   Bb
1769/70   24   9 #6   16   A
1771   26   17 #2   17   F   6 Divertimentos
1771   25   17 #1   18   E   Quartet number indicates probable order of composition
1771   28   17 #4   19   c
1771   30   17 #6   20   D
1771   27   17 #3   21   Eb
1771   29   17 #5   22   G
1772   35   20 #5   23   f   6 Divertimentos
1772   36   20 #6   24   A   Quartet number indicates probable order of composition
1772   32   20 #2   25   C
1772   33   20 #3   26   g
1772   34   20 #4   27   D
1772   31   20 #1   28   Eb
1781   41   33 #5   29   G   6 Quartets
1781   38   33 #2   30   Eb   Quartet number indicates probable order of composition
1781   37   33 #1   31   Bb
1781   39   33 #3   32   C
1781   42   33 #6   33   D
1781   40   33 #4   34   Bb
1785   43   42   35   d   Probably one of a set (for Spain) - rest are lost
1787   44   50 #1   36   Bb   Dedicated to the King of Prussia
1787   45   50 #2   37   C
1787   46   50 #3   38   Eb
1787   47   50 #4   39   f#
1787   48   50 #5   40   F
1787   49   50 #6   41   D
1788   57   54 #2   42   C   Tost Quartets set #1
1788   58   54 #1   43   G
1788   59   54 #3   44   E
1788   60   55 #1   45   A
1788   61   55 #2   46   f
1788   62   55 #3   47   Bb
1790   65   64 #1   48   C   Tost Quartets set #2
1790   68   64 #2   49   b
1790   67   64 #3   50   Bb
1790   66   64 #4   51   G
1790   64   64 #6   52   Eb
1790   63   64 #5   53   D
1793   69   71 #1   54   Bb   Apponyi Quartets, but written for London
1793   70   71 #2   55   D
1793   71   71 #3   56   Eb
1793   72   74 #1   57   C
1793   73   74 #2   58   F
1793   74   74 #3   59   g
1797   75   76 #1   60   G   Erdödy Quartets
1797   76   76 #2   61   d
1797   77   76 #3   62   C
1797   78   76 #4   63   Bb
1797   79   76 #5   64   D
1797   80   76 #6   65   Eb
1799   81   77 #1   66   G   Lobkowitz Quartets
1799   82   77 #2   67   F
1803   83   103   68   d   Only the 2 inner movements were completed

Of course, the 7 Last Words are in there too, they are Op 51, Hob III:50-56.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 05, 2011, 04:44:37 AM

Thanks! I was generally wondering about Opus numbers, entirely . . . but then, I rather suspected what you've boldly averred: that it was chaos : )

I'm still mulling quartettage. May take advantage of the drastic reductions in classical music at the local FYE, especially as I quite like the way the Amadeus Quartet do play.

Separately . . . I've now got the last of the pf trios loaded up on the player.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on December 05, 2011, 05:01:56 AM

Concordance of Quartets Composed by Joseph Haydn (Compiled by Gurn Blanston.)

Year	Hob.	Opus	Quartet	Key	Notes
1757/59	1	1 #1	1	Bb
1757/59	2	1 #2	2	Eb
1757/59	3	1 #3	3	D
1757/59	4	1 #4	4	G
1757/59		0	5	Eb	Was originally classified as Hob 2:6
1757/59	6	1 #6	6	C
1760/62	7	2 #1	7	A
1760/62	8	2 #2	8	E
1760/62	10	2 #4	9	F
1760/62	12	2 #6	10	Bb
1769/70	22	9 #4	11	d	6 Divertimentos
1769/70	19	9 #1	12	C	Quartet number indicates probable order of composition
1769/70	21	9 #3	13	G
1769/70	20	9 #2	14	Eb
1769/70	23	9 #5	15	Bb
1769/70	24	9 #6	16	A
1771	26	17 #2	17	F	6 Divertimentos
1771	25	17 #1	18	E	Quartet number indicates probable order of composition
1771	28	17 #4	19	c
1771	30	17 #6	20	D
1771	27	17 #3	21	Eb
1771	29	17 #5	22	G
1772	35	20 #5	23	f	6 Divertimentos
1772	36	20 #6	24	A	Quartet number indicates probable order of composition
1772	32	20 #2	25	C
1772	33	20 #3	26	g
1772	34	20 #4	27	D
1772	31	20 #1	28	Eb
1781	41	33 #5	29	G	6 Quartets
1781	38	33 #2	30	Eb	Quartet number indicates probable order of composition
1781	37	33 #1	31	Bb
1781	39	33 #3	32	C
1781	42	33 #6	33	D
1781	40	33 #4	34	Bb
1785	43	42	35	d	Probably one of a set (for Spain) - rest are lost
1787	44	50 #1	36	Bb	Dedicated to the King of Prussia
1787	45	50 #2	37	C
1787	46	50 #3	38	Eb
1787	47	50 #4	39	f#
1787	48	50 #5	40	F
1787	49	50 #6	41	D
1788	57	54 #2	42	C	Tost Quartets set #1
1788	58	54 #1	43	G
1788	59	54 #3	44	E
1788	60	55 #1	45	A
1788	61	55 #2	46	f
1788	62	55 #3	47	Bb
1790	65	64 #1	48	C	Tost Quartets set #2
1790	68	64 #2	49	b
1790	67	64 #3	50	Bb
1790	66	64 #4	51	G
1790	64	64 #6	52	Eb
1790	63	64 #5	53	D
1793	69	71 #1	54	Bb	Apponyi Quartets, but written for London
1793	70	71 #2	55	D
1793	71	71 #3	56	Eb
1793	72	74 #1	57	C
1793	73	74 #2	58	F
1793	74	74 #3	59	g
1797	75	76 #1	60	G	Erdödy Quartets
1797	76	76 #2	61	d
1797	77	76 #3	62	C
1797	78	76 #4	63	Bb
1797	79	76 #5	64	D
1797	80	76 #6	65	Eb
1799	81	77 #1	66	G	Lobkowitz Quartets
1799	82	77 #2	67	F
1803	83	103	68	d	Only the 2 inner movements were completed

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 05, 2011, 05:14:15 AM

Ah, brilliant as always, Navneeth. I hope you have some sort of macro to do that, it seems as though the tedium would be mind-numbing after a bit, sort of like listening to Mahler... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 05, 2011, 05:16:52 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 05, 2011, 04:44:37 AM
Thanks! I was generally wondering about Opus numbers, entirely . . . but then, I rather suspected what you've boldly averred: that it was chaos : )

I'm still mulling quartettage. May take advantage of the drastic reductions in classical music at the local FYE, especially as I quite like the way the Amadeus Quartet do play.

Separately . . . I've now got the last of the pf trios loaded up on the player.

Well, what I was meaning there is that for each set of quartets, there were a minimum of 2 publishers, often 3 or 4, and they each used their own opus numbers. Crazy, I know. Later on, Pleyel published what he felt was the entire oeuvre, and he chose to use this or that number and that became the de facto standard.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 05, 2011, 05:19:41 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 05, 2011, 05:16:52 AM
Well, what I was meaning there is that for each set of quartets, there were a minimum of 2 publishers, often 3 or 4, and they each used their own opus numbers. Crazy, I know. Later on, Pleyel published what he felt was the entire oeuvre, and he chose to use this or that number and that became the de facto standard.

Thus, to bring it all back to First Things: No such thing as items belonging to each cardinal number, Opus 1-103, for instance, yes? ; )

And thanks to you, Nav. Apart from our Alan, you are the man!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on December 05, 2011, 08:46:31 AM

I'd say, looking around here in the immediate vicinity right now, there are quite a lot of people who are the man (and more)! Indeed, I am surrounded by giants.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 05, 2011, 08:56:48 AM

You fiendish Hadynistas!

[asin]B0002U9G9E[/asin]

Ka-ching!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 05, 2011, 09:49:12 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 05, 2011, 08:56:48 AM
You fiendish Hadynistos!

[asin]B0002U9G9E[/asin]

Ka-ching!

Feedback required when you have it, Karl. We have some MI aficionados here too. Hope it doesn't sound like they're playing Dvorak... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 05, 2011, 09:55:33 AM

Wouldn't call it at all Dvořák-like, Gurn, though it's certainly 'juicier' than one would demand of a PI account. I decided to start at the end of this box, with the Op.74 quartets. My response to the music is: Great stuff! So I am inclined to attribute this in part to musically successful execution.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on December 05, 2011, 10:01:59 AM

Are they RIDING, Karl? Wish I could hear it right now.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 05, 2011, 10:03:21 AM

chas, I've not yet got to the g minor quartet . . . but I shall, ere the day is done!

So the earliest opus number in this box (setting momentarily aside the doubt that this is chronologically reliable) is the Op.51 — in other words, an arrangement of Die sieben letzen Worte. Seems a special case, and deserving of its own attention . . . so I may jump back instead to the Op.54 quartets . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 05, 2011, 10:04:57 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 05, 2011, 09:55:33 AM
Wouldn't call it at all Dvořák-like, Gurn, though it's certainly 'juicier' than one would demand of a PI account. I decided to start at the end of this box, with the Op.74 quartets. My response to the music is: Great stuff! So I am inclined to attribute this in part to musically successful execution.

Ah, didn't realize you already had it, thought it was freshly ordered. Cool. Juicy, eh? Well, that's OK, if they can sell it, they are doing it justice. :)

Quote from: chasmaniac on December 05, 2011, 10:01:59 AM
Are they RIDING, Karl? Wish I could hear it right now.

:D Me too!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 05, 2011, 10:05:22 AM

Had to edit my half-remembered German ; )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 05, 2011, 10:05:43 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 05, 2011, 10:03:21 AM
chas, I've not yet got to the g minor quartet . . . but I shall, ere the day is done!

So the earliest opus number in this box (setting momentarily aside the doubt that this is chronologically reliable) is the Op.51 — in other words, an arrangement of Die sieben letzen Worte. Seems a special case, and deserving of its own attention . . . so I may jump back instead to the Op.54 quartets . . . .

Yes, that's precisely what I would do. Pity there is no Op 50 in there.... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 05, 2011, 10:07:25 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 05, 2011, 10:04:57 AM
Ah, didn't realize you already had it, thought it was freshly ordered. Cool.

Aye, they have three copies (well, now they've got only two) at the FYE on Washington Street. They're running a Renovation Sale, so there's 30% off all Classical . . . plus I've got the 10% loyalty program discount.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 05, 2011, 10:10:58 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 05, 2011, 10:05:43 AM
Yes, that's precisely what I would do. Pity there is no Op 50 in there.... :-\

The limitations of the brick-&-mortar shops! But (a) I'm surprised that the selection is overall as rich as it is there, and (b) it won't be, for much longer, as the plan must be to move whatever is to be left of the fourth & fifth floors down to the other floors.

They have the two-CD Op.76 quartets by the Quatuor Mosaïques on the shelf there, but I forbore, reckoning that I want the fuller late quartet set by that group.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 05, 2011, 10:58:04 AM

The Andante grazioso of the Op.74 № 2 is especially dolce.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 05, 2011, 12:53:12 PM

Shave. And. A.

Hair.

Cut.

.

.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on December 05, 2011, 04:00:09 PM

Any recommendations on an HIP set of the London symphonies? I'm familiar with (the existence of) Minkowski's set, and I'm curious to see what else is out there.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 05, 2011, 04:16:49 PM

Quote from: Geo Dude on December 05, 2011, 04:00:09 PM
Any recommendations on an HIP set of the London symphonies? I'm familiar with (the existence of) Minkowski's set, and I'm curious to see what else is out there.

As a full set, you would be surprised how few there are. Here is one, I have this as 5 individual disks, since only the Japanese were clever enough to box them all up as one:

[asin]B000EBDCUA[/asin]

You can get the Bruggen as 2 Philips Duos, but you have to do some shopping around or get ~~raped~~ gouged on the price.

[asin]B00005O840[/asin][asin]B00005LKEI[/asin]

I got mine off from eBay for around $15 each, but it took me a while. Frankly, I like the Kuijken a lot better. The Minkowski too.

Now, if you want to put singles together, there are a ton of them out there. A couple by Hogwood, 2 by Hickox, a couple by Goodman... none of them have a set, but together you can do satisfactorily. If there is 1 I don't have, I am unaware of it. If I think of more, I'll post them here. :)

[asin]B00000E2QS[/asin](http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/41nHz6vn2BWL.jpg)
[asin]B000SNUI60[/asin][asin]B00004TD4Y[/asin][asin]B000050432[/asin]

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on December 05, 2011, 04:19:42 PM

Thanks for the information, Gurn. Given the somewhat high price (double that of Minkowski on the market place), how do you feel about the Kuijken set?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 05, 2011, 04:28:43 PM

Quote from: Geo Dude on December 05, 2011, 04:19:42 PM
Thanks for the information, Gurn. Given the somewhat high price (double that of Minkowski on the market place), how do you feel about the Kuijken set?

I like it a lot. Smallish band, very nice playing and tempos that seem ideal to me. I mix them all up a lot, which makes it harder for me to review them all like this. Probably I would rate them as follows (for MY taste):

Kuijken
Hogwood
Minkowski
Goodman (93, 94, 95, 100, 101, 102, 104 on Helios and Nimbus)
Hickox
Brüggen

You don't have to get the Kuijken in that box set. I bought mine over a 2 or 3 month period on the AMP for an average of <$10 ea. They show up fairly often, so if it isn't there this week, no telling that it won't be there next week. By being patient I have managed to amass a huge collection at a very reasonable price. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 05, 2011, 04:32:39 PM

Goodman:

[asin]B00008JL6P[/asin][asin]B00008JL6N[/asin][asin]B00008FH2T[/asin]

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on December 05, 2011, 05:35:50 PM

Gurn, you haven't steered me wrong yet. I'll look around for the Kuijken material.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 05, 2011, 05:40:21 PM

Quote from: Geo Dude on December 05, 2011, 05:35:50 PM
Gurn, you haven't steered me wrong yet. I'll look around for the Kuijken material.

I wouldn't dare, you live too close by... :D I don't think you will be disappointed. If you go the single disk route, you can always get one and see. If they are too... quiet for you, then you can bail and look at others. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 05, 2011, 07:46:19 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 05, 2011, 12:53:12 PM
Shave. And. A.

Hair.

Cut.

.

.

(http://cdn.screenrant.com/wp-content/uploads/scarychristopherlloyd.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 06, 2011, 03:12:34 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 05, 2011, 10:04:57 AM
Ah, didn't realize you already had it, thought it was freshly ordered. Cool.

Now, as for freshly ordered, I've pulled the trigger on the Opp.64, 76, 77 box by the Quatuor Mosaïques.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 06, 2011, 04:23:19 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 06, 2011, 03:12:34 AM
Now, as for freshly ordered, I've pulled the trigger on the Opp.64, 76, 77 box by the Quatuor Mosaïques.

Ah, splendid. There should be no regrets there! Lovely playing by the QM, and the box is an irresistible bargain. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 06, 2011, 04:33:13 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 06, 2011, 04:23:19 AM
Ah, splendid. There should be no regrets there! Lovely playing by the QM, and the box is an irresistible bargain. :)

8)

Aye, and I fancy that I may well turn to them for the Opp. 20 & 33, too.

At which point, one could argue that I had saved money if I had got a complete set, but . . . I don't mind not being a compleatist here, and I rather prefer having a mix of performers.

Really digging this . . . in the first place, it's wonderful to find a trove of great quartets, on their own merits. Secondly, this experience is enriching my already established appreciation for (e.g.) Mozart's "Haydn" Quartets . . . 'tis truly a tide which lifts all boats.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 06, 2011, 04:38:57 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 06, 2011, 04:33:13 AM
Aye, and I fancy that I may well turn to them for the Opp. 20 & 33, too.

At which point, one could argue that I had saved money if I had got a complete set, but . . . I don't mind not being a compleatist here, and I rather prefer having a mix of performers.

Really digging this . . . in the first place, it's wonderful to find a trove of great quartets, on their own merits. Secondly, this experience is enriching my already established appreciation for (e.g.) Mozart's "Haydn" Quartets . . . 'tis truly a tide which lifts all boats.

Well, the QM specifically don't have a 'complete set' anyway, so if you get 20 & 33, you will have their entire contribution excepting the 7 Last Words. For Op 9, 17, 50, 54, 55, 71 & 74 you have to look elsewhere anyway, and that you have already done. I think your classical quartet collection is coming along swimmingly well. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 06, 2011, 04:44:28 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 06, 2011, 04:38:57 AM
Well, the QM specifically don't have a 'complete set' anyway, so if you get 20 & 33, you will have their entire contribution excepting the 7 Last Words.

Oh, I was curt . . . I believe that the Opp. 20 & 30 box includes Die sieben lezten Worte, as well . . . a piece I shan't mind having (I expect) by both the Quatuor Mosaïques & the Amadeus Quartet.

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 06, 2011, 04:38:57 AM
For Op 9, 17, 50, 54, 55, 71 & 74 you have to look elsewhere anyway, and that you have already done. I think your classical quartet collection is coming along swimmingly well. :)

8)

Yes, this is a listening foray which I should not have foretold, a year ago.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 06, 2011, 06:47:31 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on December 05, 2011, 03:08:50 AM
Any recommendations on a PI set of the London symphonies? Gurn has previously recommended Minkowski's recording, so I'm aware of that one. I'd like to see what the other options are.

Hi GeoDude - I have about 3-4 recordings of the London Symphonies, including the Minkowski release; however, the one below is the recording that I would like to obtain - unfortunately $60+ at Amazon (Japanese release I presume) - I do own Kuijken w/ this band in Symphonies 82-92 (released on 2 inexpensive VeritasX2 offerings) - will be interested to see if others may be suggested (or if the set below is available ELSEWHERE for a decent price!) - :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51v%2B0QatwaL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 06, 2011, 06:52:38 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on December 05, 2011, 05:35:50 PM
Gurn, you haven't steered me wrong yet. I'll look around for the Kuijken material.

Hi Geo Dude - appears you also posted the same question in the 'Haydn Haus' to which I responded - hard to understand why DHM cannot release those Londons at a decent price but hard to predict the music industry's motives at this time? Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 06, 2011, 08:15:11 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on December 06, 2011, 06:47:31 AM
. . . I do own Kuijken w/ this band in Symphonies 82-92 (released on 2 inexpensive VeritasX2 offerings) . . . .

Oh, this wicked, wicked thread!

— I mean . . . Thank you for the alert! I did find the 88-92 Veritas two-fer, for a song.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on December 06, 2011, 10:46:11 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 06, 2011, 08:15:11 AM
Oh, this wicked, wicked thread!.

Agreed. It is the epitome of evil.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 06, 2011, 11:08:40 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on December 06, 2011, 10:46:11 AM
Agreed. It is the epitome of evil.

It's because you come to Haydn here!! Don't blame the thread! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 06, 2011, 01:16:18 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 06, 2011, 08:15:11 AM
Oh, this wicked, wicked thread!

— I mean . . . Thank you for the alert! I did find the 88-92 Veritas two-fer, for a song.

Karl - LOL! ;D Yep, those two twofers are just $6 each on the Amazon MP - a must for Kuijken fans! Now, why the H*&% doesn't DHM re-release those Londons in a bargain box? >:D Dave

(http://www.buyticketslastminute.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Wicked.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on December 06, 2011, 04:22:25 PM

I don't know where these works fit into Gurn's chronology, but I am enjoying them and especially this recording of them very much these last two days:

[asin]B00000443H[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 06, 2011, 06:35:18 PM

Quote from: Arnold on December 06, 2011, 04:22:25 PM
I don't know where these works fit into Gurn's chronology, but I am enjoying them and especially this recording of them very much these last two days:

[asin]B00000443H[/asin]

Those are from 1784. Very entertaining, nice flute trios with no pretensions. They are as follows;

IV:6     D                   1st mvmt arr. from Il mondo della luna (opera), no.12 ; 2nd mvmt uses no.15
IV:7     G                   1st mvmt uses no.24
IV:8     C                   2nd mvmt uses no.25
IV:9     G                   arr. of 3 movts from Baryton trio #97
IV:10     A                   3rd mvmt arr. from no.23
IV:11     D                   3rd mvmt arr. from no.14

This was another case of Haydn 'recycling' his music. The opera "Il mondo de la Luna" (The World on the Moon) probably never got the play it deserved. The music from it is especially nice, and is displayed here in these trios, which were especially composed for London at a time when Haydn was first seriously considering going there. No one there will have ever heard an opera that was specifically composed for Esterházy anyway, so there lovely arrangements for Violin & Flute (or 2 Flutes) & Cello fit the occasion perfectly.

I really would love to pick up that disk you show, Arnold. I have a couple of very nice versions, but the Kuijken's always please me best. This one goes to the wish list. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on December 06, 2011, 07:05:01 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 06, 2011, 03:12:34 AM
Now, as for freshly ordered, I've pulled the trigger on the Opp.64, 76, 77 box by the Quatuor Mosaïques.

Listening to those Op. 64 performances even as I type now (I have them as individual CDs, sort of--the Op. 76 comes as a 2 CD "box")--I can't really begin to say how wonderful they are. I can't imagining anyone who likes Haydn or chamber music not liking these recordings.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 07, 2011, 04:28:33 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 06, 2011, 06:35:18 PM
. . . This was another case of Haydn 'recycling' his music.

Speaking of recycling, O Gurn . . . do any of these appear in pf trio guise in the Van Swieten Trio box?

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 06, 2011, 07:05:01 PM
Listening to those Op. 64 performances even as I type now (I have them as individual CDs, sort of--the Op. 76 comes as a 2 CD "box")--I can't really begin to say how wonderful they are. I can't imagining anyone who likes Haydn or chamber music not liking these recordings.

Thanks for the encouraging confirmation, Jeffrey . . . I'm certainly digging the quartets with MI forces.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 07, 2011, 04:37:37 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 07, 2011, 04:28:33 AM
Speaking of recycling, O Gurn . . . do any of these appear in pf trio guise in the Van Swieten Trio box?

Thanks for the encouraging confirmation, Jeffrey . . . I'm certainly digging the quartets with MI forces.

Sorry, Karl, sadly (or not) not. They do appear here, however:

[asin]B00400B1KY[/asin]

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on December 08, 2011, 05:09:21 AM

Why, Gurn, why have the Festetics 4s not been set in a fat, cheap box for me to add to my bulging collection? It isn't fair!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 08, 2011, 05:51:20 AM

We all are well acquainted with "The Philosopher", "Farewell", "The Bear", "Drumroll", etc... but what about those lonely but equally delightful symphonies that go nameless? ;D

I'm curious to some of GMG'rs favorite un-named symphonies.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on December 08, 2011, 05:58:16 AM

#95 in Cm is my alltime favourite.

It's hard to remember numbers alone when there are so many of them!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 08, 2011, 06:00:08 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on December 08, 2011, 05:58:16 AM
#95 in Cm is my alltime favourite.

It's hard to remember numbers alone when there are so many of them!

Great choice, one of the best from the London symphonies.

Another great Cminor is #52, a great finale just as with #95.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on December 08, 2011, 06:07:00 AM

# 88 for me, anytime, anywhere.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 08, 2011, 06:25:31 AM

I hate that they have names, but what can you do? My favorites are 88, 100 & 39. I know, 100 has a name, but I didn't give it.... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 08, 2011, 06:25:58 AM

99 is one of my favorites. I don't understand though why it hasn't acquired the nickname Die Katze (the Cat). The second subject first movement sounds like a meow to me 8) 80 in D minor is another favorite. Some of those written around the time of the Horn Signal have tremendous music for horns too, which I love. I just can't remember which ones! Damn Papa for composing too many to remember ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 08, 2011, 06:27:33 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 08, 2011, 06:25:58 AM
99 is one of my favorites. I don't understand though why it hasn't acquired the nickname Die Katze (the Cat). The second subject first movement sounds like a meow to me 8) 80 in D minor is another favorite. Some of those written around the time of the Horn Signal have tremendous music for horns too, which I love. I just can't remember which ones! Damn Papa for composing too many to remember ;D

Sarge

72 is one of them, Sarge. It was composed the year before 31. Yes, #80 is another fine one. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 08, 2011, 06:30:51 AM

I like every one of those that has been named so far!! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 08, 2011, 06:31:42 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 08, 2011, 06:27:33 AM
72 is one of them, Sarge.

Ah yes. In fact you mentioned that elsewhere recently and it wound up in my player. I wonder if I'll remember this conversation tomorrow. Sigh...if I only had a brain ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 08, 2011, 06:31:59 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on December 08, 2011, 05:09:21 AM
Why, Gurn, why have the Festetics 4s not been set in a fat, cheap box for me to add to my bulging collection? It isn't fair!

I have thought that too, for a long time. What I finally did to be able to get them all was to set my sights on one box at a time until I managed it. Since there are 9 of them, it took a while, but I ended up getting pretty good deal on all of them off eBay, and occasionally of AMP. I box would be fabulous, although Arcana is not noted for doing customer-centric things like that... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 08, 2011, 06:32:47 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 08, 2011, 06:30:51 AM
I like every one of those that has been named so far!! :)

The problem with Haydn symphonies: it's impossible not to like every one of them.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 08, 2011, 06:33:16 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 08, 2011, 06:31:42 AM
Ah yes. In fact you mentioned that elsewhere recently and it wound up in my player. I wonder if I'll remember this conversation tomorrow. Sigh...if I only had a brain ;D

Sarge

I'm glad I still actually have mine, but keeping in touch with it has become increasingly difficult. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 08, 2011, 06:59:15 AM

Great responses!

#51 in B Flat also has some great horn writing, especially the very beginning of the Adagio. But the entire piece is wonderful.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on December 08, 2011, 09:28:47 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 08, 2011, 06:25:58 AM
99 is one of my favorites. I don't understand though why it hasn't acquired the nickname Die Katze (the Cat).

Consider it done!

SYMPHONIE NR.99 'DIE KATZE' IN ES-DUR
SYMPHONY No.99 'THE CAT' IN E-flat Major

Who says we can't create new nicknames. I will force my colleagues to use it, too! Bruce: You, too! New S&H standard.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 08, 2011, 09:57:28 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on December 08, 2011, 09:28:47 AM
Consider it done!

SYMPHONIE NR.99 'DIE KATZE' IN ES-DUR
SYMPHONY No.99 'THE CAT' IN E-flat Major

Who says we can't create new nicknames. I will force my colleagues to use it, too! Bruce: You, too! New S&H standard.

Cool ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 08, 2011, 10:39:22 AM

He digs Haydn:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 08, 2011, 11:02:48 AM

.
[asin]B0036FOV4W[/asin]

Very curious about this set, with the exception of #94's "surprise" I've enjoyed what I've heard from samples, powerful and intense, possibly a bit too intense, but I think the "Londons" can handle it quite well, and the interpretations are intriguing. Any comments on this set?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on December 08, 2011, 11:15:43 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on December 08, 2011, 09:28:47 AM
Consider it done!

SYMPHONIE NR.99 'DIE KATZE' IN ES-DUR
SYMPHONY No.99 'THE CAT' IN E-flat Major

Who says we can't create new nicknames. I will force my colleagues to use it, too! Bruce: You, too! New S&H standard.

Very curious about this set, with the exception of #94's "surprise" I've enjoyed what I've heard from samples, powerful and intense, possibly a bit too intense, but I think the "Londons" can handle it quite well, and the interpretations are intriguing. Any comments on this set?
[/quote]

Does it include "The Cat"?

(see: http://www.seenandheard-international.com/2011/10/08/haydn_symphony99_thecat_barber_beethoven_tonhalle_zinman_batiashvili/ (http://www.seenandheard-international.com/2011/10/08/haydn_symphony99_thecat_barber_beethoven_tonhalle_zinman_batiashvili/), also
http://www.seenandheard-international.com/2011/05/27/nielsen_beethoven_haydn_symphony99_thecat_lso_uchida_davis/ (http://www.seenandheard-international.com/2011/05/27/nielsen_beethoven_haydn_symphony99_thecat_lso_uchida_davis/),
also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._99_(Haydn) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._99_(Haydn)), also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_symphonies_by_Joseph_Haydn#The_symphonies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_symphonies_by_Joseph_Haydn#The_symphonies), also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_symphonies_with_names#Numbered_symphonies_with_a_nickname (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_symphonies_with_names#Numbered_symphonies_with_a_nickname).

but seriously folks: I love that set. Terrific from alpha to omega.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on December 08, 2011, 11:53:46 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 08, 2011, 06:31:59 AM
I have thought that too, for a long time. What I finally did to be able to get them all was to set my sights on one box at a time until I managed it. Since there are 9 of them, it took a while, but I ended up getting pretty good deal on all of them off eBay, and occasionally of AMP. I box would be fabulous, although Arcana is not noted for doing customer-centric things like that... :-\

8)

Now that I have finally gotten all of the available Goodman symphonies, I can focus on the Festetics quartets. All I have right now are Op. 33 & 42 and a single disc sampler of 17/4; 50/4 and 76/4.

A-hunting I shall go!

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 08, 2011, 12:02:28 PM

Quote from: Arnold on December 08, 2011, 11:53:46 AM
Now that I have finally gotten all of the available Goodman symphonies, I can focus on the Festetics quartets. All I have right now are Op. 33 & 42 and a single disc sampler of 17/4; 50/4 and 76/4.

A-hunting I shall go!

:)

There you go! If you just focus on 1 at a time, it seems easier. Did to me anyway. Op 64 is a low hanging fruit. 3 or 4 months ago it was very generally available new at <$20. A good start. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on December 08, 2011, 02:18:22 PM

Quote from: Arnold on December 08, 2011, 11:53:46 AM
Now that I have finally gotten all of the available Goodman symphonies, I can focus on the Festetics quartets. All I have right now are Op. 33 & 42 and a single disc sampler of 17/4; 50/4 and 76/4.

A-hunting I shall go!

:)

I've always found MDT to have the best deal on ARCANA CDs, incl. the Festetics Haydn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 08, 2011, 04:47:30 PM

Part 18

1769

In terms of life in general, not a lot of big events in 1769. Of course, life wasn't dull at Esterházy anyway, the Prince felt it was imperative to keep the boys in the band busy at all times. The Prince began his custom of engaging the dramatic troupe of Carl Wahr to present plays and dramas to balance out the operas that he was beginning to show a strong interest in. It is believed that Haydn wrote incidental music for the Shakespearean plays that were performed, although the scores no longer exist. They would have likely been destroyed in the Great Fire of the late 1770's which took so much music.

But we also saw the return, for the first time in 10 years, of the string quartet. In the autumn of that year he started putting Op 9 on paper. This was a landmark in music history, since it codified the structure of a string quartet from that point on. Of course there were variations and still are, but IMO, the fact that anything other than 4 movements, with a sonata-form first movement and the other recognizable standards, are considered to be variations does no more than prove the rule.

The Stürm und Dräng "Romantic Crisis" was now in full sway, with elements being recognizable in clavier sonatas and string quartets as well as symphonies. This "Third Period" so-called was one of the most interesting phases of his career, on a par in some people's estimation with the final period of complete mastery that came to its peak in London in the 1790's.

The music of 1769:
Hob 01_048 Symphony in C
Brüggen, OAE
Hob 01_065 Symphony in A
Pinnock, Trevor/English Concert
Hob 01_106 Le Pescatrici: Sinfonia in D
Manfred Huss / Haydn Sinfonietta Wien
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnBrggenSDcover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnPinnockSD3cover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnOverturescover.jpg)

Hob 03_19 Quartet in C for Strings Op. 9 #1
Hob 03_21 Quartet in G for Strings Op. 9 #3
Hob 03_22 Quartet in d for Strings Op. 9 #4
Quatuor Festetics
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnFesteticsOp09cover.jpg)

Hob 11_073 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 4
Hob 11_074 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 4
Hob 11_075 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 4
Hob 11_076 Trio in C for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 4
Hob 11_077 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 4
Hob 11_078 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 4
Hob 11_079 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 4
Hob 11_080 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 4
Hob 12_18 Divertimento in A for Baryton Solo
Esterhazy Ensemble
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Completebarytontrioscover.jpg)

Hob 17a_01 Sonata in F for Keyboard 4 hands "Maestro e Scolare"
Hob 17a_02 Sonata in F for 2 Keyboards
Christine Schornsheim / Andreas Staier
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardSchornsheimHaydn.jpg)

Hob 18_04 Concerto in G for Keyboard
Musica Antiqua Amsterdam / Koopman
Hob 18_04 Concerto in G for Keyboard
Concerto Copenhagen / Mortensen Brautigam
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKoopmancover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Brautigamconcertoscover.jpg)

Hob 28_04 Dramma giocoso in 3 Acts 'Le Pescatrici' The Orchestra & Choir of the Lithuanian Opera / Olga Géczy
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnLePescatricicover.jpg)

A relatively light year, in terms of volume, but some nice pieces, and the beginnings of some trends that would last.

An interesting item is the one called Hob I:106. It was thought for many years to be a sinfonia, thus it got the name Symphony 106 when it was discovered. But down the road, when the fragments of the score of Le Pescatrici (The Fisher Girls) turned up, it was realized to be the overture for same. Of course, one can't change a number, the public won't stand for it! ::)

The first 3 quartets of Op 9 (the remainder to follow in 1770) also showed up, led off by the wonderful d minor #4 (but first in order of composition). I find it interesting that these early quartets, which Haydn still called 'divertimento', were specifically named by him years later as the first of his true string quartets, and so they are thought of today. All of the characteristics are there, so if you are among the crowd who doesn't like to get into early works on the premise (false, of course) that they will disappoint in relation to the later works, then you need have no fear here. Dig in!

As opera gains popularity with the Prince, it seems (if one goes by volume) that baryton works are finally losing their ascendancy. With #80 in the books this year, we are more than 2/3 of the way through the entire trio oeuvre. The best is yet to come in a few years though, with the grand finale adios to the baryton via the octets. Not yet though, still some great trios in the offing.

We have 2 versions of the #4 keyboard concerto here. The original cembalo version in a nicely played rendition by Koopman, and then a rollicking fortepiano one by Brautigam. This concerto is a tough one to nail down the original instrument for. As early as the very beginning of the 1770's, it was being played in Vienna on the fortepiano, released in score as such. And even in Haydn's own original, there are dynamic markings that really aren't intended for the harpsichord. But even those of us in the camp that places fortepianos in Esterházy as early as 1773 are hard pressed to go back as far as 1769 with them. I personally like it both ways. :)

And an opera. "Le Pescatrici" is based on a libretto by Goldoni, the undisputed king of opera buffa and 'dramma giocoso'. It is a blend of those 2 styles, and the surviving parts are very lovely indeed. Much of the recitative is original, but a lot of it was composed by Robbins-Landon in an effort (largely successful, IMO) to make the opera performable. This recording pictured is the only one there is. I have hopes that Huss & company will do it over, as they did with 'Acide'. Meanwhile, this one is good enough to be way better than no version at all!

As always, I invite your feedback, input, clarifications, questions, answers, smartass remarks... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 08, 2011, 05:35:25 PM

Thanks, and a great job as usual, Gurn.

This may have been brought up before on this thread, I might have missed it. But why were pieces such as Symphony #48 and #65 written in the same year, but numbered so far apart?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 08, 2011, 06:11:15 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 08, 2011, 05:35:25 PM
Thanks, and a great job as usual, Gurn.

This may have been brought up before on this thread, I might have missed it. But why were pieces such as Symphony #48 and #65 written in the same year, but numbered so far apart?

Thanks, Greg, glad you liked it.

The symphonies were first numbered in their current order way back in 1907 by Mandyczewski. Despite the fact that before him, there were as many as 185 symphonies attributed to Haydn, he performed the amazing feat of compiling a list from which none have been removed and only 2 added (Symphony A & B (107 & 108), and the previously mentioned #106 which turns out to have been the overture to Le Pescatrici. However, one thing he didn't accomplish was to get them in proper order. Too much to ask, I guess. And so Hoboken adopted the list entire, and it awaited Robbins-Landon to actually get a proper chronology. But by then, the numbers were written in stone and there was no changing them. If you are a Mozart fan, you are familiar with this same phenomenon when you look at Köchel numbers and see that people, after all these years, are still using the K1 numbers when in fact the K6 numbers, which are 50 years old already, are much closer but still totally obsolete. Inertia, my friend, simply inertia. Or, in one of my more controversial moods, what I prefer to call intellectual laziness. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnOp09Festeticscover.jpg) Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03_21 Quartet in G for Strings Op. 9 #3 1st mvmt - Moderato

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 09, 2011, 02:06:28 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 08, 2011, 06:11:15 PM
. . . Or, in one of my more controversial moods, what I prefer to call intellectual laziness. :)

8)

On behalf of the musical world: ouch! : )

Logistics of re-organization play into it, too. Not to defend the inertia, mind.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on December 09, 2011, 02:28:54 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 08, 2011, 06:11:15 PM
Inertia, my friend, simply inertia. Or, in one of my more controversial moods, what I prefer to call intellectual laziness. :)

8)

on our part, surely... not Eusebius' or Ludwig von K's!?! Are you on board fighting inertia and referring to Haydn's Symphony Hoboken 99 / NC 101 "The Cat", whenever you shall mention it? Based on Sarge's fine point about the work meowing, it's time to add nicknames and not just leave it to old silly misconceptions or a frontispiece in the second edition to determine nicknames.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 09, 2011, 03:24:04 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on December 09, 2011, 02:28:54 AM
on our part, surely... not Eusebius' or Ludwig von K's!?! Are you on board fighting inertia and referring to Haydn's Symphony Hoboken 99 / NC 101 "The Cat", whenever you shall mention it? Based on Sarge's fine point about the work meowing, it's time to add nicknames and not just leave it to old silly misconceptions or a frontispiece in the second edition to determine nicknames.

I just listened to #99 and heard no evidence of a felis catus howling, screeching, purring, or otherwise making a menace of itself. The only thing it reminded me of is Rossini. Who I suppose could be called a 'fat cat'. Hmmm, how'd we get back there?!?!? :)

The other problem with 'the cat' - it's already been used in a Cary Grant movie. I think of that first. So maybe some alternatives:
- Primo Cato (umm, errr, sorry Cato)
- Caticus Prime (err, a bad Transformer movie?)
- Hid'en cat (haha)
- The nine lives symphony (you know - two nines; I rather like this one)
- Or here's one you'll never guess - The cat!

A catty email, I know, but that's what happens when you listen to #99 I guess. :P What were we talking about again??...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on December 09, 2011, 03:33:15 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 09, 2011, 03:24:04 AM
I just listened to #99 and heard no evidence of a felis catus howling, screeching, purring, or otherwise making a menace of itself. The only thing it reminded me of is Rossini. Who I suppose could be called a 'fat cat'. Hmmm, how'd we get back there?!?!? :)

Listening to Norrington right now. With SOME imagination I've come across a cat or two... but perhaps Sarge could pinpoint a recording / occurrence that meows particularly cattishly to him?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2011, 03:35:30 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 09, 2011, 03:24:04 AM
I just listened to #99 and heard no evidence of a felis catus howling, screeching, purring, or otherwise making a menace of itself.

It's none of those things: it's a gentle "meow" --the second subject. What performance did you listen to? If I have it I can give you the time it first appears.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2011, 03:36:40 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on December 09, 2011, 03:33:15 AM
Listening to Norrington right now. With SOME imagination I've come across a cat or two... but perhaps Sarge could pinpoint a recording / occurrence that meows particularly cattishly to him?

Hang on...I'll spin Norrington now and get back to you.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2011, 03:41:51 AM

First movement second subject:

Norrington 2:54
Minkowski 3:13

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 09, 2011, 03:48:36 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2011, 03:41:51 AM
First movement second subject:

Norrington 2:54
Minkowski 3:13

Sarge

Dang, and here I've left my Szell box-let at home . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on December 09, 2011, 03:49:35 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2011, 03:41:51 AM
First movement second subject:

Norrington 2:54
Minkowski 3:13

Sarge

Now that's the cat's meow!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on December 09, 2011, 03:52:31 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2011, 03:41:51 AM
First movement second subject:

Norrington 2:54
Minkowski 3:13

Sarge

We don't have the same cat.

But fair enough... now my goal is not only to instigate nicknaming the symphony (my Wiki additions were already called into quesiton and removed >:() but to get a conductor to REALLY "mkkkgnnnnaw" on that phrase.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2011, 03:53:31 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 09, 2011, 03:48:36 AM
Dang, and here I've left my Szell box-let at home . . . .

Well, when you get back home, check it out. First appearance of the meow in the Szell recording is at 3:15.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2011, 03:53:46 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on December 09, 2011, 03:49:35 AM
Now that's the cat's meow!

:D :D 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2011, 03:55:09 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on December 09, 2011, 03:52:31 AM
We don't have the same cat.

Either that or you don't have an imagination :D Or maybe German cat's have a different accent. I hear an American feline 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 09, 2011, 03:57:27 AM

Cool for Cleveland cats!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on December 09, 2011, 04:00:13 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2011, 03:55:09 AM
Either that or you don't have an imagination :D Or maybe German cat's have a different accent. I hear an American feline 8)

Sarge

The cats in my limited imagination all sing 'downward' or else employ strong portamento on upward swoops...
But since I am strongly bi-continental, as far as pussies are concerned, I don't think it's a regional issue.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 09, 2011, 04:03:29 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2011, 03:35:30 AM
It's none of those things: it's a gentle "meow" --the second subject. What performance did you listen to? If I have it I can give you the time it first appears.

Sarge

I have Fischer or Davis.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 09, 2011, 04:08:00 AM

I stalled somewhere in the 50s* with my Haydn symphony survey. The Haus may just spur me to organize sufficiently to get that train rolling again.

(* Meaning the symphonies numbered in the 50s, not the listener's age.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2011, 04:14:15 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 09, 2011, 04:03:29 AM
I have Fischer or Davis.

Sir Colin's with the Concertgebouw from 1975? If so the first appearance of the meow is at 3:24/25 but it makes an even stronger impact with the change in orchestration at 7:34. The only problem with the timings is that I have the Pentatone CD not the original Philips. If one or the other companies added a bit a silence to the beginning, the timings may be slightly off. But you should be able to recognize when the second subject begins. It's pretty obvious. Whether you'll hear the meows....well, like Jens said, depends on your imagination ;)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 09, 2011, 04:19:24 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on December 09, 2011, 02:28:54 AM
on our part, surely... not Eusebius' or Ludwig von K's!?! Are you on board fighting inertia and referring to Haydn's Symphony Hoboken 99 / NC 101 "The Cat", whenever you shall mention it? Based on Sarge's fine point about the work meowing, it's time to add nicknames and not just leave it to old silly misconceptions or a frontispiece in the second edition to determine nicknames.

I scarcely ever use nicknames, even when they are well-established. An exception would be if the composer actually named it. And you do know that Sarge is a bit... off, don't you? In any case, if someone were to have a 'catty' work, it would surely be Mozart, who loved to meow and actually used meowing in more than one of his little songs (Like Bona nox). That said, I will happily support the use of NC101 for the Symphony in Eb of 1794! That's good thinking. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2011, 04:21:04 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on December 09, 2011, 04:00:13 AM
The cats in my limited imagination all sing 'downward' or else employ strong portamento on upward swoops...

Yeah, I know what you mean. But I've heard cats meow with an upward swoop, almost as if they are asking a question.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 09, 2011, 04:21:55 AM

It's all a matter of being attentive to one's cat.

And to be sure, some cats are naturally more expressive than others.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 09, 2011, 04:23:52 AM

Help, Navneeth! :o

Symphony listing:

Year     New Chronology   Key   Hob #   Name
1757     1     D    1
1757/8   2   C   37
1757/9   3   G   18
1757/9   4   C   2
1757/60   5   D   4
1757/60   6   G   27
1758/60   7   D   10
1758/60   8   C   20
1760/1   9   F   17
1760/1   10   D   19
1760/1   11   Bb   107   Symphony A
1760/1   12   C   25
1760/1   13   Eb   11
1760/1   14   A   5
1760/1   15   C   32
1761   16   D   15
1761   17   G   3
1761   18   D   6   Le matin
1761   19   C   7   Le midi
1761   20   G   8   Le soir
1761/2   21   Eb   36
1761/2   22   C   33
1762   23   C   9
1762   24   Bb   108   Symphony B
1762   25   A   14
1763   26   E   12
1763   27   F   40
1763   28   Bb   16
1763   29   d   34
1763   30   D   72
1763   31   D   13
1764   32   G   23
1764   33   Eb   22   The Philosopher'
1764   34   A   21
1764   35   D   24
1765   36   C   30   Alleluia
1765   37   D   31   Hornsignal
1765   38   g   39
1765   39   E   29
1766   40   A   28
1767   41   C   38
1767   42   F   58
1767   43   Bb   35
1768   44   A   59   Fire
1768   45   f   49   The Passion
1768   46   d   26   Lamentation
1768   47   C   41
1769   48   A   65
1769   49   C   48   Maria Theresia
1770/71   50   e   44   Mourning
1770/71   51   Eb   43   Mercury
1771   52   c   52
1771   53   D   42
1772   54   G   47
1772   55   f#   45   Farewell
1772   56   B   46
1773   57   Bb   51
1773   58   A   64   Tempora Mutantur
1773/4   59   C   50
1774   60   Eb   55   The Schoolmaster
1774   61   G   54
1774   62   C   60   Il Distratto
1774   63   C   56
1774   64   D   57
1775   65   Bb   68
1775   66   F   67
1775   67   C   69   Laudon
1775   68   Bb   66
1776   69   D   61
1778   70   Bb   71
1778   71   D   70
1778   72   D   53   L'Imperiale
1779   73   D   75
1779   74   C   63   La Roxelane
1780   75   D   62
1780   76   Eb   74
1781   77   D   73   La chasse
1782   78   c   78
1782   79   F   77
1782   80   Eb   76
1784   81   G   81
1784   82   d   80
1784   83   F   79
1785   84   A   87
1785   85   Bb   85   La reine
1785   86   g   83   La Poule
1786   87   Eb   84
1786   88   D   86
1786   89   C   82   L'ours
1787   90   G   88
1787   91   F   89
1788   92   C   90
1788   93   Eb   91
1789   94   G   92   Oxford
1791   95   c   95
1791   96   D   96   The Miracle
1792   97   D   93
1792   98   G   94   Surprise
1792   99   C   97
1792   100   Bb   98
1794   101   Eb   99   The Cat
1794   102   D   101   Die Uhr
1794   103   G   100   Military
1795   104   Bb   102
1795   105   Eb   103   Drumroll
1795   106   D   104   London
1795   107   Bb   105   Sinfonia concertante

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2011, 04:26:59 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 09, 2011, 04:19:24 AM
And you do know that Sarge is a bit... off, don't you?

Cruel, Gurn, cruel...even if it is true ;D But no more off than Lethe who hears--quite rightly, I hasten to add--a stumbling goat in #78 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on December 09, 2011, 04:32:44 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2011, 04:26:59 AM
But no more off than Lethe who hears--quite rightly, I hasten to add--a stumbling goat in #78 8)

Sarge

Oh Gawd. I've cut work cut out for me...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 09, 2011, 04:36:25 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2011, 04:26:59 AM
Cruel, Gurn, cruel...even if it is true ;D But no more off than Lethe who hears--quite rightly, I hasten to add--a stumbling goat in #78 8)

Sarge

Sure, that movement is called "Caprio alla zoppa", IIRC... :D

I've added your moniker to NC101. If Navneeth will grace us with his impeccable formatting, we can consider it a done deal. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2011, 04:39:39 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on December 09, 2011, 04:32:44 AM
Oh Gawd. I've [got my] work cut out for me...

Welcome to Haydn's ~~Haus~~ Asylum :)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on December 09, 2011, 04:39:56 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2011, 04:26:59 AM
Lethe who hears--quite rightly, I hasten to add--a stumbling goat in #78 8)

So there it is: Symphony No. 78 in C minor Hob. I:78 La Capra inciampatta

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2011, 04:41:42 AM

Quote from: Florestan on December 09, 2011, 04:39:56 AM
So there it is: Symphony No. 78 in C minor Hob. I:78 La Capra inciampatta

Lovely 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on December 09, 2011, 05:41:02 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on December 09, 2011, 03:52:31 AM
We don't have the same cat.

But fair enough... now my goal is not only to instigate nicknaming the symphony (my Wiki additions were already called into quesiton and removed >:() but to get a conductor to REALLY "mkkkgnnnnaw" on that phrase.

He's not kidding! :o

(http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2011/12/9/a16f9c68-32c8-4986-b78d-452d3bc632bd.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2011, 05:48:17 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on December 09, 2011, 05:41:02 AM
He's not kidding! :o

(http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2011/12/9/a16f9c68-32c8-4986-b78d-452d3bc632bd.jpg)

;D :D ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 09, 2011, 05:53:01 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2011, 04:14:15 AM
Sir Colin's with the Concertgebouw from 1975? If so the first appearance of the meow is at 3:24/25 but it makes an even stronger impact with the change in orchestration at 7:34. The only problem with the timings is that I have the Pentatone CD not the original Philips. If one or the other companies added a bit a silence to the beginning, the timings may be slightly off. But you should be able to recognize when the second subject begins. It's pretty obvious. Whether you'll hear the meows....well, like Jens said, depends on your imagination ;)

Sarge

Huh. I guess it could be cats. It really reminds me of Rossini there. It's sounds flirty to me, so perhaps you could associate that with a cat. It's not something I would have thought myself (without help). Then again, I tend to daydream when I listen to music like this, so I can certainly see how it might have happened.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2011, 06:02:30 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 09, 2011, 05:53:01 AM
Huh. I guess it could be cats. It really reminds me of Rossini there. It's sounds flirty to me, so perhaps you could associate that with a cat.

Hmmmpff...no imagination...or perhaps you just aren't sufficiently off ;D

To be precise, it is the first two ascending notes of that theme, and their subsequent repetitions, that remind me of a meow. YHMV

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on December 09, 2011, 06:08:25 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2011, 06:02:30 AM

Hmmmpff...no imagination...or perhaps you just aren't sufficiently off ;D

To be precise, it is the first two ascending notes of that theme, and their subsequent repetitions, that remind me of a meow. YHMV

Sarge

Yes, really only the first statement of the theme, and the scoring makes it even more feline-esque. Not to be confused with Felini-esque. But on second thought, this entire discussion might be worthy of his treatment.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 09, 2011, 06:13:44 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2011, 06:02:30 AM

Hmmmpff...no imagination...or perhaps you just aren't sufficiently off ;D

To be precise, it is the first two ascending notes of that theme, and their subsequent repetitions, that remind me of a meow. YHMV

Sarge

Yeah - I got the place (your timing fit mine on Philips), so I know what you mean. Perhaps I will do a bit of 'practice' for the wine thread and see if that helps! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on December 09, 2011, 06:18:35 AM

Quote from: Florestan on December 09, 2011, 04:39:56 AM
So there it is: Symphony No. 78 in C minor Hob. I:78 La Capra inciampatta

Also known as La chèvre achoppement? Wasn't that even on the Paris publisher's print plates?

Voila. New nickname.

West-Coast Haydn Lovers, visit the restaurant (http://www.stumblinggoatbistro.com/)!

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-l1owSRQrEx0/TuIvrci4RgI/AAAAAAAABwo/uQnBIT4aK7M/s1600/haydn_71.png)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on December 09, 2011, 06:46:28 AM

Christmas Special Now with Non-Canonical Nicknames Included!!! Christmas Special*

*Offer valid until all this goofiness dies down

Year	New Chronology	Key	Hob. I	Nickname
1757	1	D	1
1757/8	2	C	37
1757/9	3	G	18
1757/9	4	C	2
1757/60	5	D	4
1757/60	6	G	27
1758/60	7	D	10
1758/60	8	C	20
1760/1	9	F	17
1760/1	10	D	19
1760/1	11	Bb	107	Symphony A
1760/1	12	C	25
1760/1	13	Eb	11
1760/1	14	A	5
1760/1	15	C	32
1761	16	D	15
1761	17	G	3
1761	18	D	6	Le matin
1761	19	C	7	Le midi
1761	20	G	8	Le soir
1761/2	21	Eb	36
1761/2	22	C	33
1762	23	C	9
1762	24	Bb	108	Symphony B
1762	25	A	14
1763	26	E	12
1763	27	F	40
1763	28	Bb	16
1763	29	d	34
1763	30	D	72
1763	31	D	13
1764	32	G	23
1764	33	Eb	22	The Philosopher'
1764	34	A	21
1764	35	D	24
1765	36	C	30	Alleluia
1765	37	D	31	Hornsignal
1765	38	g	39
1765	39	E	29
1766	40	A	28
1767	41	C	38
1767	42	F	58
1767	43	Bb	35
1768	44	A	59	Fire
1768	45	f	49	The Passion
1768	46	d	26	Lamentation
1768	47	C	41
1769	48	A	65
1769	49	C	48	Maria Theresia
1770/71	50	e	44	Mourning
1770/71	51	Eb	43	Mercury
1771	52	c	52
1771	53	D	42
1772	54	G	47
1772	55	f#	45	Farewell
1772	56	B	46
1773	57	Bb	51
1773	58	A	64	Tempora Mutantur
1773/4	59	C	50
1774	60	Eb	55	The Schoolmaster
1774	61	G	54
1774	62	C	60	Il Distratto
1774	63	C	56
1774	64	D	57
1775	65	Bb	68
1775	66	F	67
1775	67	C	69	Laudon
1775	68	Bb	66
1776	69	D	61
1778	70	Bb	71
1778	71	D	70
1778	72	D	53	L'Imperiale
1779	73	D	75
1779	74	C	63	La Roxelane
1780	75	D	62
1780	76	Eb	74
1781	77	D	73	La chasse
1782	78	c	78
1782	79	F	77
1782	80	Eb	76
1784	81	G	81
1784	82	d	80
1784	83	F	79
1785	84	A	87
1785	85	Bb	85	La reine
1785	86	g	83	La Poule
1786	87	Eb	84
1786	88	D	86
1786	89	C	82	L'ours
1787	90	G	88
1787	91	F	89
1788	92	C	90
1788	93	Eb	91
1789	94	G	92	Oxford
1791	95	c	95
1791	96	D	96	The Miracle
1792	97	D	93
1792	98	G	94	Surprise
1792	99	C	97
1792	100	Bb	98
1794	101	Eb	99	The Cat
1794	102	D	101	Die Uhr
1794	103	G	100	Military
1795	104	Bb	102
1795	105	Eb	103	Drumroll
1795	106	D	104	London
1795	107	Bb	105	Sinfonia concertante

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2011, 06:48:57 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on December 09, 2011, 06:18:35 AM
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-4TjW4j9QuYA/TuImouehMsI/AAAAAAAABwc/nnhHITebeu0/s1600/haydn_71.png)

We have a printing error. Should be 78 not 71.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on December 09, 2011, 06:50:28 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2011, 06:48:57 AM
We have a printing error. Should be 78 not 71.

And I think it should be either "achoppant" ou "achoppee".

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2011, 06:55:11 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 09, 2011, 06:13:44 AMPerhaps I will do a bit of 'practice' for the wine thread and see if that helps! :)

In vino veritas.... Yes, wine should help you hear the truth 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2011, 06:56:16 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on December 09, 2011, 06:46:28 AM
Christmas Special Now with Non-Canonical Nicknames Included!!! Christmas Special*

8) 8) 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on December 09, 2011, 06:57:52 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2011, 06:48:57 AM
We have a printing error. Should be 78 not 71.

Sarge

Dang. Corrected now.

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-l1owSRQrEx0/TuIvrci4RgI/AAAAAAAABwo/uQnBIT4aK7M/s1600/haydn_71.png)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 09, 2011, 07:17:09 AM

Thought I would bump this back to the top since it went back so fast that most of the interested parties never knew it was there. :)

Part 18

1769

In terms of life in general, not a lot of big events in 1769. Of course, life wasn't dull at Esterházy anyway, the Prince felt it was imperative to keep the boys in the band busy at all times. The Prince began his custom of engaging the dramatic troupe of Carl Wahr to present plays and dramas to balance out the operas that he was beginning to show a strong interest in. It is believed that Haydn wrote incidental music for the Shakespearean plays that were performed, although the scores no longer exist. They would have likely been destroyed in the Great Fire of the late 1770's which took so much music.

But we also saw the return, for the first time in 10 years, of the string quartet. In the autumn of that year he started putting Op 9 on paper. This was a landmark in music history, since it codified the structure of a string quartet from that point on. Of course there were variations and still are, but IMO, the fact that anything other than 4 movements, with a sonata-form first movement and the other recognizable standards, are considered to be variations does no more than prove the rule.

The Stürm und Dräng "Romantic Crisis" was now in full sway, with elements being recognizable in clavier sonatas and string quartets as well as symphonies. This "Third Period" so-called was one of the most interesting phases of his career, on a par in some people's estimation with the final period of complete mastery that came to its peak in London in the 1790's.

The music of 1769:
Hob 01_048 Symphony in C
Brüggen, OAE
Hob 01_065 Symphony in A
Pinnock, Trevor/English Concert
Hob 01_106 Le Pescatrici: Sinfonia in D
Manfred Huss / Haydn Sinfonietta Wien
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnBrggenSDcover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnPinnockSD3cover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnOverturescover.jpg)

Hob 03_19 Quartet in C for Strings Op. 9 #1
Hob 03_21 Quartet in G for Strings Op. 9 #3
Hob 03_22 Quartet in d for Strings Op. 9 #4
Quatuor Festetics
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnFesteticsOp09cover.jpg)

Hob 11_073 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 4
Hob 11_074 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 4
Hob 11_075 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 4
Hob 11_076 Trio in C for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 4
Hob 11_077 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 4
Hob 11_078 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 4
Hob 11_079 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 4
Hob 11_080 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 4
Hob 12_18 Divertimento in A for Baryton Solo
Esterhazy Ensemble
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Completebarytontrioscover.jpg)

Hob 17a_01 Sonata in F for Keyboard 4 hands "Maestro e Scolare"
Hob 17a_02 Sonata in F for 2 Keyboards
Christine Schornsheim / Andreas Staier
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardSchornsheimHaydn.jpg)

Hob 18_04 Concerto in G for Keyboard
Musica Antiqua Amsterdam / Koopman
Hob 18_04 Concerto in G for Keyboard
Concerto Copenhagen / Mortensen Brautigam
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKoopmancover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Brautigamconcertoscover.jpg)

Hob 28_04 Dramma giocoso in 3 Acts 'Le Pescatrici' The Orchestra & Choir of the Lithuanian Opera / Olga Géczy
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnLePescatricicover.jpg)

A relatively light year, in terms of volume, but some nice pieces, and the beginnings of some trends that would last.

An interesting item is the one called Hob I:106. It was thought for many years to be a sinfonia, thus it got the name Symphony 106 when it was discovered. But down the road, when the fragments of the score of Le Pescatrici (The Fisher Girls) turned up, it was realized to be the overture for same. Of course, one can't change a number, the public won't stand for it! ::)

The first 3 quartets of Op 9 (the remainder to follow in 1770) also showed up, led off by the wonderful d minor #4 (but first in order of composition). I find it interesting that these early quartets, which Haydn still called 'divertimento', were specifically named by him years later as the first of his true string quartets, and so they are thought of today. All of the characteristics are there, so if you are among the crowd who doesn't like to get into early works on the premise (false, of course) that they will disappoint in relation to the later works, then you need have no fear here. Dig in!

As opera gains popularity with the Prince, it seems (if one goes by volume) that baryton works are finally losing their ascendancy. With #80 in the books this year, we are more than 2/3 of the way through the entire trio oeuvre. The best is yet to come in a few years though, with the grand finale adios to the baryton via the octets. Not yet though, still some great trios in the offing.

We have 2 versions of the #4 keyboard concerto here. The original cembalo version in a nicely played rendition by Koopman, and then a rollicking fortepiano one by Brautigam. This concerto is a tough one to nail down the original instrument for. As early as the very beginning of the 1770's, it was being played in Vienna on the fortepiano, released in score as such. And even in Haydn's own original, there are dynamic markings that really aren't intended for the harpsichord. But even those of us in the camp that places fortepianos in Esterházy as early as 1773 are hard pressed to go back as far as 1769 with them. I personally like it both ways. :)

And an opera. "Le Pescatrici" is based on a libretto by Goldoni, the undisputed king of opera buffa and 'dramma giocoso'. It is a blend of those 2 styles, and the surviving parts are very lovely indeed. Much of the recitative is original, but a lot of it was composed by Robbins-Landon in an effort (largely successful, IMO) to make the opera performable. This recording pictured is the only one there is. I have hopes that Huss & company will do it over, as they did with 'Acide'. Meanwhile, this one is good enough to be way better than no version at all!

As always, I invite your feedback, input, clarifications, questions, answers, smartass remarks... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 09, 2011, 07:26:46 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 09, 2011, 07:17:09 AM
. . . An interesting item is the one called Hob I:106. It was thought for many years to be a sinfonia, thus it got the name Symphony 106 when it was discovered. [....]

Well, and the symphony itself (sinfonia) originated as la sinfonia avanti l'opera. And, to be sure, "Pops" was there at (or near) the gate.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 09, 2011, 07:31:24 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 09, 2011, 07:26:46 AM
Well, and the symphony itself (sinfonia) originated as la sinfonia avanti l'opera. And, to be sure, "Pops" was there at (or near) the gate.

Yes, we were talking about just that in The Corner the other day, when the topic of Sammartini came up. The Italian sinfonia was devised as a curtain raiser and to give people the cue to sit down and shut up. It took some people with vision to advance that into the Ninth Symphony of Beethoven, the greatest piece of music of the Western World. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 09, 2011, 07:40:25 AM

And the Prokofiev Second, the greatest symphony after Beethoven ; )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on December 09, 2011, 07:43:53 AM

:D

Good Lord! You guys know where this sort of thing leads, right?

:D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2011, 07:49:05 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on December 09, 2011, 07:43:53 AM
Good Lord! You guys know where this sort of thing leads, right?

It leads to no good...and to men with large hammers.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 09, 2011, 08:23:45 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2011, 07:49:05 AM
It leads to no good...and to men with large hammers.

Sarge

Yeah, but not here... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on December 09, 2011, 08:43:19 AM

Oh sweet, the goat is gaining some traction ;D

Thanks, as ever, for your chronological entires, Gurn. I like how once you reach his final year, you can gradually expand each earlier one as you learn more/new information comes to light :) Maybe by the time you've finished you'll have your book already written ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on December 09, 2011, 08:44:43 AM

Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevna Pettersson on December 09, 2011, 08:43:19 AM
Oh sweet, the goat is gaining some traction ;D

Only after first losing it...

;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 09, 2011, 09:32:50 AM

Quote from: Lethe Dmitriyevna Pettersson on December 09, 2011, 08:43:19 AM
Oh sweet, the goat is gaining some traction ;D

Thanks, as ever, for your chronological entires, Gurn. I like how once you reach his final year, you can gradually expand each earlier one as you learn more/new information comes to light :) Maybe by the time you've finished you'll have your book already written ;D

Thanks, Lethe. I am getting a bit more relaxed with the writing aspect now, so I am expanding a bit more. When I started out, I wasn't sure exactly what to write. Still aren't, but getting better. :)

If the goat gains too much traction, will it not cease to stumble? What a disaster for your premise. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on December 09, 2011, 09:40:07 AM

Eventually we'll have to pester everyone to change the name to Goat und Verklärung.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 09, 2011, 05:54:57 PM

Thanks to Navneeth for formatting our little list of symphonies. I was too busy to note it earlier, but am most grateful for the effort. Although he did overlook naming Hob 78 as 'The Stumbling Goat'. Yet I think that can be forgiven. :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Brautigamconcertoscover.jpg) Concerto Copenhagen; Mortensen Brautigam - Hob 18_04 Concerto in G for Keyboard and Orchestra 2nd mvmt - Adagio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on December 09, 2011, 10:56:20 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 09, 2011, 05:54:57 PM
Although he did overlook naming Hob 78 as 'The Stumbling Goat'. Yet I think that can be forgiven. :D

I did not compile the list, sir.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 10, 2011, 07:31:44 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on December 09, 2011, 10:56:20 PM
I did not compile the list, sir.

Oh, OK, blame it on me... :'( Actually, the limping goat didn't appear in timely enough fashion for my purposes. I'm not fully convinced of it yet. Unlike the Cat... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on December 10, 2011, 07:46:19 AM

This will be of little benefit to me since I already ordered the disc (what can I say? Under $2.50 in great condition), but it may direct some others to a good work, or cause them to steer clear. So I must ask...

(http://www.tkshare.com/pic/20110223/20110223141525718.jpeg)

How is this disc?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 10, 2011, 07:59:16 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on December 10, 2011, 07:46:19 AM
This will be of little benefit to me since I already ordered the disc (what can I say? Under $2.50 in great condition), but it may direct some others to a good work, or cause them to steer clear. So I must ask...

(http://www.tkshare.com/pic/20110223/20110223141525718.jpeg)

How is this disc?

QuoteIMO, the masterpiece of the year was the Cello Concerto #1. Written for his first chair cello and close friend Joseph Weigl, it was one of the very early Classical concertos that is still very much in the repertoire today. As you see, I have a couple of versions of it posted, since I simply can't choose between them. Yet another is that of Queyras with the Freibourg Baroque. A great enough work to merit several versions. :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/BylsmaHaydncover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/CelloSuzukicover.jpg)

I think it's very fine. If you can get it for a good price, that's just a bonus. Kraft, BTW, was Haydn's first cello, although not at the time that concerto #1 was composed (1763). There was some confusion over whether he or Haydn had actually composed the concerto #2, until a signed autograph of the score was discovered post-WW II. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 10, 2011, 09:04:38 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 10, 2011, 07:31:44 AM
Oh, OK, blame it on me... :'( Actually, the limping goat didn't appear in timely enough fashion for my purposes. I'm not fully convinced of it yet. Unlike the Cat... :D

8)

Excellent. Now that I have such a renowned Haydn expert behind this, I'll begin peddling my cover design. Surely Harmonia Mundi will have an interest...you know, for their Haydn Edition ;D

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/dec11/Haydn99Katze.jpg)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 10, 2011, 09:15:23 AM

;D Can you swing by and see if the Freiburgers will play it for us, Sarge? I think that would be right up their alley. And you should ask them to accent appropriately so you don't have to explain it all the time. It will feature prominently in my book though (unless it is a vanity publication and I have to pay by the page to get it published). :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 10, 2011, 09:25:40 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 10, 2011, 09:15:23 AM
;D Can you swing by and see if the Freiburgers will play it for us, Sarge? I think that would be right up their alley.

Oh, definitely. Next time I see Gottfried I'll press my our case.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 10, 2011, 09:40:19 AM

Part 19

1770

A typically eventful/uneventful year. No huge biographical happenings, other than the one documented illness of his life, a fever so severe that his brother Michael took leave from Salzburg and came to visit. No apparent lasting effects though, and really, no idea what it was.

In September, his opera composed the year before, Le pescatrici, premiered at the wedding celebrations of Countess Lamberg, the prince's niece. It was his last opera for 3 years, when the prince suddenly went opera wild and commissioned L'Infedelta delusa in 1773, the first in a long line of operas at Esterházy by all the great composers of the day.

Op 9 was completed, and Stürm und Dräng continued to dominate the symphonic output. #44 in e minor, the Mourning Symphony, is considered by many to be the peak of that phase in his output. In addition, he composed the Sei Sonatas for Violin & Viola which were extremely popular throughout Europe with many incarnations for various instruments, none of them by Haydn.

Here is the music of 1770:

Hob 01_043 Symphony #43 in Eb
Tafelmusik / Bruno Weil
Hob 01_044 Symphony in e
Apollo Ensemble / Hsu
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnWeilSymphoniesboxcover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HidHyd.jpg)

Hob 03_20 Quartet in Eb for Strings Op. 9 #2
Hob 03_23 Quartet in Bb for Strings Op. 9 #5
Hob 03_24 Quartet in A for Strings Op. 9 #6
Quatuor Festetics
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnFesteticsOp09cover.jpg)

Hob 06_01 Duo in F for Violin & Viola
Hob 06_02 Duo in A for Violin & Viola
Hob 06_03 Duo in Bb for Violin & Viola
Hob 06_04 Duo in D for Violin & Viola
Hob 06_05 Duo in Eb for Violin & Viola
Hob 06_06 Duo in C for Violin & Viola
Anton Steck (Violin) Christian Goosses (Alto)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSteckGoossesDuoscoversquaredup.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnViolinViolaDuoscoverback.jpg)

Hob 11_081 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 4
Hob 11_082 Trio in C for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 4
Hob 11_083 Trio in F for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 4
Hob 11_084 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 4
Hob 11_085 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 4
Hob 11_086 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 4
Hob 11_087 Trio in a for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 4
Hob 11_088 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 4
Hob 11_089 Trio in G for Baryton, Violin & Cello Book 4
Hob 11_090 Trio in C for Baryton, Violin & Cello Book 4
Esterhazy Ensemble
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Completebarytontrioscover.jpg)

Hob 14_08 Divertimento in C for Keyboard
L'Arte dell'Arco / Loreggian
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHob14cover.jpg)

Hob 16_44 Sonata #32 in g for Keyboard
Marcia Hadjimarkos
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardHadjimarkosclavichordcover.jpg)

Some great music in 1770. A year that you can just play and have a taste of the many talents that are coming to maturity.

There are so many excellent recordings of the S & D symphonies that I felt the need to get off the beaten track. How does one choose? Well, I chose Weil and Hsu because they combine authenticity with excellent playing and both of them pleased me. YMMV (your mileage may vary), but you can certainly be very happy with Pinnock, Hogwood, Brüggen or Goodman in 43, and those plus Arion, Immerseel or Koopman in 44. I have them all and on any given evening... :)

For those who like to hop around with their performers, I would like to point out that the Schuppanzigh Quartet, in their Haydn Anthology series, have included 2 of the Op 9 quartets, the d minor #4 (disk 2) and the A major #6 (disk 1). We can only hope that at the very least disk 3 of this series will be released, since it already has a cover design and catalog number despite being on their shelf yet. I wish it was on my shelf! :D

If you aren't familiar yet with the duos, they should be at least on your event horizon. If you don't want to spring for the Accent premium price point, then if you have the Big Box, there is a version there, which, while it is the unauthorized arrangement for cello instead of viola, is truly nice. I enjoyed it for years (in the Hungaroton original) before the Steck/Goosses was released. I predict you will too. :)

Oh look, a baryton trio in the minor mode! And a nice one too. For those without the complete set of baryton works, but a few single disks, I learned this work from Volume 1 of the ASV disks by Hsu (the blue one). Now that we are nearly up to 100, just when you think Haydn must be getting bored writing for this ensemble, instead he finds another gear as it were, and things get interesting all over again.

We also have arrived at the end of the line for the little keyboard divertimentos for 4 instruments. Pity really, I rather liked those. With a total of 11 (including the mis-cataloged Hob 18_F2 and 14_1 with its 2 horns added) they actually presented a sizable oeuvre of what are essentially keyboard quartets. One wonders if he had carried them forward, if he would have settled on the eventual standard of keyboard, violin, viola & cello. Something I would have liked to hear. :)

And finally a keyboard sonata. This g minor work, played here on clavichord as it likely was originally, is one of the last of the S & D efforts before 1773 found Haydn writing the 6 tribute works dedicated to the Prince, and in entirely different style. It's nicely dramatic, and practically the end of another era.

Please feel free to give feedback, comments, questions, answers. Delighted to talk Haydn with all comers!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on December 10, 2011, 09:52:52 AM

Well, what do we have here?

A review from October 2011 (http://www.seenandheard-international.com/2011/10/08/haydn_symphony99_thecat_barber_beethoven_tonhalle_zinman_batiashvili/) where the symphony No. 99 is already referred to as "The Cat".

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 10, 2011, 10:02:49 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on December 10, 2011, 09:52:52 AM
Well, what do we have here?

A review from October 2011 (http://www.seenandheard-international.com/2011/10/08/haydn_symphony99_thecat_barber_beethoven_tonhalle_zinman_batiashvili/) where the symphony No. 99 is already referred to as "The Cat".

That was Jens doing. See this post http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2294.msg583387.html#msg583387

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on December 10, 2011, 10:09:20 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 10, 2011, 10:02:49 AM
That was Jens doing. See this post http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2294.msg583387.html#msg583387

Sarge

>:( Well, his suggestion was kicked out of the wikiz, but I see all the blogs are belong to him... slowly and quietly injecting this untruth* into society.

*I just heard a couple of versions on YouTube, and I didn't hear any cat!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 10, 2011, 11:52:19 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on December 10, 2011, 10:09:20 AM
>:( Well, his suggestion was kicked out of the wikiz, but I see all the blogs are belong to him... slowly and quietly injecting this untruth* into society.

It has nothing to do with truth or untruth. Few if any of the named symphonies were chosen by Haydn. Someone else thought of them. The second subject simply reminds me of a cat's meow just as the second subject of the 83rd Symphony reminded some people of a chicken and the slow movement of the 100th evoked images of battle in one reviewer, and the names stuck. Much as I'd like it to happen, I doubt my imaginative take on the second subject will spread beyond this forum. But I don't think the name is any more farfetched than the Hen Symphony ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 10, 2011, 12:08:03 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 10, 2011, 11:52:19 AM
It has nothing to do with truth or untruth. Few if any of the named symphonies were chosen by Haydn. Someone else thought of them. The second subject simply reminds me of a cat's meow just as the second subject of the 83rd Symphony reminded some people of a chicken and the slow movement of the 100th evoked images of battle in one reviewer, and the names stuck. Much as I'd like it to happen, I doubt my imaginative take on the second subject will spread beyond this forum. But I don't think the name is any more farfetched than the Hen Symphony ;D

Sarge

Which is why, when the subject first came up, I answered that I don't use any of the names, even the "officially accepted" ones. I toss one in every now and again to remind people of what I'm talking about, but in my own listings I just don't use them. 0:)

8)

----------------
Now playing:

Quatuors Festetics - Hob 03_38 Quartet in Eb for Strings Op 33 #2 3rd mvmt - Largo e sostenuto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 10, 2011, 04:26:10 PM

I have recovered this post from the depths because while I was attempting to create a post on this topic, I had the nagging feeling that I had written it once before. Sure enough, I went through my Word files and found the original of this, got the date (1/30/2011) and went back and found it. Whether you find it interesting or not is totally up to you, but here it is anyway. :)

8)

At the suggestion of a curious member, I will try here to categorize the different phases and styles of Haydn's symphonies. It is a given that dealing with 108 works (plus a few others thrown in for good measure) makes it difficult to get a grip. In the particular case of Haydn's symphonies, the difficulties are greatly enhanced by such little foibles as his habit of not dating manuscripts. The distribution system at the time didn't help anything either, which is to say that if you, a visiting musician asked Haydn for a copy of a symphony of his, he would say OK, sit over there and copy it out from this. So there are lots of sets of parts with no provenance. And to make it more confusing still, a major fire at Esterhazy in 1779 destroyed the main opera house and its contents, including lots of Haydn's manuscripts. So extant copies are not originals, making the commonly used tools of paper and ink and handwriting analysis virtually useless.

Still, some talented and dedicated researchers have spent lifetimes figuring all this stuff out, and there are at least a few things that are settled.

The original chronology of the symphonies was first published by Eusebius Mandyczewski, the archivist for the Gesselschaft der Musikfreunde in Vienna after the famous Max Pohl died. Mandyczewski's list, published in 1907, has never been challenged as to its contents. Nothing has been removed as a result of further study, and only 2 things have been added (Symphonies A & B (107 & 108)). However, the chronology has been changed all to be damned. When I refer to a work here as #31, it is the Mandyczewski/Hoboken number. As long as you remember that that work is likely to be almost anything BUT the 31st symphony, you will be on solid ground... :D

In addition to chronology, there are categories that these works neatly fit into. Many of these lasted for his entire career, and even in his first 20 or so works all the major categories have appeared.

The actual musical terms are cribbed from Oxford Composer Companion to Haydn by David Wyn Jones. The historical contexts are pretty much the result of reading many books and putting together the pieces myself. I would like to footnote the entire thing, but I'm not going to. Looking up citation constantly is a pain in the ass, to be honest. Anyway, it's just us guys here (and Sara). :)

The Periods

How many periods do you divide 108 into? The more, obviously, the smaller they are. I like that, although if there is no stylistic difference then there's no point either in making yet another grouping. Nine is such a pleasant number, let's try that:

1. Symphonies composed before 1761. Why 1761? That's when he went to work for the Esterhazy's. These are they: 1, 2, 4, 5, 10, 11, 15, 18, 20, 27, 32, 33, 37 & 107 (Symphony A). That is numerical order, not chronological.

2. 1761c – 1763c – this is a group of 6 symphonies which are rather on the mysterious side. They fall into that group that are virtually impossible to date properly because no original manuscript copies exist. They are: 3, 14, 16, 17, 19, 25, 36 & 108 (Symphony B). It is my opinion that these works are from earlier rather than later, and probably were composed during the short term of service with Count Morzin.

3. Early Esterhazy Symphonies (1761 – 1765) – The first group of works composed specifically for the Esterhazys. I will add 6 works at the beginning which I feel belong there. You can accept or reject them as you will, it is all semantics anyway! In March/April 1761 Haydn started his employment. His first works were a set of 6 miniature symphonies in 4 movements each, fully orchestrated. He didn't call them symphonies, rather they were Scherzandi (Jokes). They each lasted <>10 minutes. You can find them in Hob II:33-38. So Hoboken calls them divertimentos for multiple instruments and I respectfully disagree. In any case the remainder of the output from that period includes the following symphonies: 6, 7, 8, 9, 12, 13, 21, 22, 23, 24, 28, 29, 30, 31, 34, 40 & 72.

4. Esterhazy Symphonies – 1766 – 1772. Ok, it's Stürm und Dräng time. Haydn's so-called crisis years. The symphonies written in these years are his most popular excepting the London's, and it's a near thing with those too! They include: 26, 35, 38, 39, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 52, 58, 59 & 106 (which is believed to be actually the overture to the opera 'Le Pescatrici' (the Fisher Girls)).

5. Esterhazy Symphonies – 1772 – 1781. A large and very mixed bag of works here. One characteristic that they all have in common is that there is not a single minor key work in the bunch! Stark contrast to the period immediately preceding, with its outsized proportion of minor and unusual (B major! :o ) keys. Clearly there are some works that were put together from other things, theatrical overtures for example, and possibly even instrumental music. An example is the slow movement of #65, which is believed to have started life as some incidental music for a production of Hamlet! What extent Haydn's main preoccupation in this time as opera impresario might have affected his symphonic work is unknown, but many works in this time have the kiss of the theater to them. They are the following: 50, 51, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 73, 74 & 75.

6. Symphonies from 1782 – 1784 – Call them what you will, but my choice is that these are Haydn's first mature symphonies in the Classical Style. They were composed for a trip to London where Haydn was to direct their premiere, but eventually sold to a Parisian publisher when that fell through. They are actually 2 sets of 3, just like the Paris Symphonies. I consider them to be neglected masterpieces; you be the judge. They are 76, 77, 78, 79, 80 & 81.

7. Paris Symphonies – 1785 – 1786 – Commissioned in 1784 by the Concerts de la Loge Olympique, a Paris concert organization. 3 were completed in 1785 and 3 more in 1786, but all 6 were first performed in the 1787 concert season. Haydn claimed the order of composition to be 87, 85, 83, 84, 86 & 82 but when he sold them to Artaria to publish, they ordered the set 82-87 and those numbers stuck.

8. Symphonies 1787 – 1789 – Just 5 in these years, although he was plenty busy writing other than symphonies. Any of us who are string quartet fans will have heard the story of the Tost Quartets, which Haydn entrusted to violinist Johann Tost to take to Paris for publication, and which he may or may not have ever gotten his money for. Anyway, on that same trip, Tost also had with him the manuscripts for 2 symphonies, now called #88 & 89. They were published by Silber in Paris. They are very likely the first symphonies since 1761 that weren't composed to be played at Esterhazy before anything else was done with them. Too bad for the Prince: #88 in G is one of my very favorites! :) #90-92 was another set of 3 that were originally composed for the Concerts de la Loge Olympique. Haydn was being Haydn though, and simultaneously sold them to a German publisher. #92 also served the purpose of being Haydn's doctoral dissertation in 1793 when he received his doctorate from Oxford. Good choice!

9. London Symphonies – 1791 – 1795 – 12 symphonies #93 – 104. Also the sinfonia concertante #105. The first 6 were commissioned by Salomon for the 1791 & 92 concert season, 99 – 101 for Salomon's 1794 season, and the final 3 for the Opera Concerts of 1795.

So that should cover all 108 plus the 6 Scherzandi. I hope I haven't missed any, or worse yet, duplicated any! If anyone is keen to discuss anything specific about any work or group of works, this is as good a place for it as any. I will also add in the corrected chronology that we talked about a few months ago. It should be timely located right here. I am hoping to expand on this by adding information about different types of symphonies and what made them different and why etc. I hope you will find that of interest also. And some further info on the orchestras he had to work with over the years and how that might have affected different compositions.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 10, 2011, 06:12:51 PM

Part 20

1771

I have lately taken to giving the impression that life was rather uneventful at Esterházy, but really, how could I say that when events like this occurred? ::)

QuoteFrom The Collected Correspondence (and London Notebooks of F. Joseph Haydn by H.C Robbins-Landon)
Contract between Zacharius Pohl and Xavier Marteau in Haydn's presence [in German]
This day on the date and year recorded below is herewith set down and agreed the following settlement and contract between the Princely Esterházy oboist, Zacharias Pohl, and the Princely Esterházy bass-player, Xavier Marteau, because of the scandalous brawl between them which occurred on the 23rd of the previous month of June in the Esterházy Castle Tavern, whereby Zacharias Pohl lost his right eye; to wit:
Whereas, according to the statements of both parties and various witnesses, it may be surmised that Xavier Marteau did- not purposely intend to inflict this damage with his ring on the eye of Zacharias Pohl, but on the other hand, Zacharias Pohl is not entirely guiltless, both parties have therefore agreed, in the presence of Herr Kapellmeister Hayden [sic], to the following settlement: that Xavier Marteau shall recompense Zacharias Pohl for the costs of the cure and trip arising from the above-mentioned damage, in the amount of forty-nine Gulden 13 Kreutzer, within six months, at the rate of 8 Gulden 17 1/6 Kr. per month, of which the first 8 Fl. 17 1/6 Kr. are to be paid on the first of January 1772; but Zacharias Pohl, because of the indemnification here given him as a result of the damage to his eye, shall not and can not demand anything at any time from Xavier Marteau.
As witness thereto both parties have set their hands and their customary seals,
Eisenstadt, the 21st of December 1771.

L.s. Zacharias Pohl, hochfürstlicher Hautboist.
L.s. Xavier Marteau, hochfürstlicher Bassetist
In my presence: Josephus Haydn - Hochfürstlicher Kapellmeister L.s.

The music continued on, unabated despite these other responsibilities.

Music of 1771:

Hob 01_042 Symphony in D
Hanover Band / Goodman
Hob 01_052 Symphony in c
English Concert / Pinnock
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Goodman42_44cover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnPinnockSD4cover-1.jpg)

Hob 03_25 Quartet in E for Strings Op 17 #1
Hob 03_26 Quartet in F for Strings Op 17 #2
Hob 03_27 Quartet in Eb for Strings Op 17 #3
Hob 03_28 Quartet in c for Strings Op 17 #4
Hob 03_29 Quartet in G for Strings Op 17 #5
Hob 03_30 Quartet in D for Strings Op 17 #6
Quatuor Festetics
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnFesteticsOp17cover.jpg)

Hob 11_091 Trio in D for Baryton, Violin & Cello Book 4
Hob 11_092 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 4
Hob 11_093 Trio in C for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 4
Hob 11_094 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 4
Hob 11_095 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 4
Hob 11_096 Trio in b for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 4
Esterhazy Ensemble
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Completebarytontrioscover.jpg)

Hob 16_18 Sonata #20 in Bb for Keyboard
Lola Odiaga
Hob 16_20 Sonatensatz in c for Keyboard (Fragment)
Christine Schornsheim
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardOdiaga1cover-1.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardSchornsheimHaydn.jpg)

Hob 23b_02 Salve Regina
Tafelmusik / Bruno Weil
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnWeilMassesCompletecover-1.jpg)

Two very good symphonies. We have it on good authority that the Prince, often viewed as a total Liberal in terms of anything Haydn composed, actually struck out a few measures of Symphony 42 that he considered too daring even for him. They must have been something! What he left untouched is pretty fine though, certainly worth checking out. There are many good versions of both of these symphonies (more of 42 than 52 though), among others that you may enjoy are Weil, Brüggen and Hogwood.

Another set of string quartets already! Seems like the hiatus during the 1760's allowed the storing up of ideas. It is way beyond the purpose of these humble essays to explore subjects such as similarities between successive sets of string quartets, but if you want to explore that very interesting area, there is a cottage industry in writing books on the topic. A couple of them are The String Quartets of Joseph Haydn Graves & Graves, and the larger and more generalized, but probably more understandable Mozart, Haydn & Early Beethoven by Daniel Heartz. You might be surprised, as I was, by the fact that there are many evolutionary commonalities that flow right through from Op 1 to 103. Op 17 is a peach by any standard. I like the rollicking presentation of the Festetics, shown here, but you might find the beautifully played London Haydn Quartet on Hyperion to be more your cup of tea instead. Either way, the music rocks!

There is another baryton trio in the minor mode in this year's crop also. Book 4 comes to an end this year, and Book 5 will take 7 years to complete. We can safely predict that the Prince's attention span, clearly not the longest ever in any case, is finally beginning to run its course here. Even now though, Haydn's inventiveness is an endless stream.

A couple of interesting items in the keyboard sonatas now; the very attractive Hob 16:18 (#20) in Bb, which is nearly the last of the series of recent years that were primarily composed for connoisseurs rather than amateurs. I have chosen Lola Odiaga on Fortepiano, since if this work was played in Vienna that winter, then it was not beyond belief that this was the instrument it was played on. And secondly, we have Hob 16:20 in c minor. This work shows up twice in the '70's, The first time is here, where we are playing it as a clavichord fragment which is what remains of the original. It is proposed by Schornsheim (liner notes) that he started out with the idea for this piece and wrote out the beginning, then he put it away for future use for unknown reasons. In 1779, when he wrote a lovely set consisting in Hob 16:35-39, he went back and finished the piece and made a set of 6. So we will see it again, and much more fully realized than here.

Finally a Salve Regina to finish off the year. Haydn told Griesinger many years later that he wrote it as a thanksgiving for recovery from the illness of the previous year that we saw last chapter. It is in g minor, and without any extraneous warbling from the ladies of the solo flock. This version by Weil is all one could ask, IMO.

So there is 1771. As always, I would be delighted to discuss any aspect of this essay that appeals to you.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on December 11, 2011, 02:28:50 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on December 10, 2011, 10:09:20 AM
>:( Well, his suggestion was kicked out of the wikiz, but I see all the blogs are belong to him... slowly and quietly injecting this untruth* into society.

*I just heard a couple of versions on YouTube, and I didn't hear any cat!

0.) ;)

1.) As Sarge saiz: It's not about "truth" or "untruth" (or even truthiness)... it's a homage to the ridiculousness of the title as such (and how they were created... often on the flimsiest of evidence/reason), it's an homage to Haydn and his little, subtle upward "Mggknaw-meow". And an homage to Sarge and his imaginary cat. :-)

2.) Cats don't just show themselves to everyone. 'Tis in their nature, and it only proves they're there!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 11, 2011, 02:33:11 AM

Apropos the Cat Symphony: if you still can't hear the meows, perhaps this will help*: the clowder in the first movement development (this version is the arrangement Salomon made for flute, string quartet and pianoforte).

http://www.4shared.com/audio/H91HDut4/No_99_developement.html

* Or not. It may just prove I'm really as off as Gurn alleges ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on December 11, 2011, 02:45:05 AM

I've been noticing that Gurn and I are in agreement in quite a few things. 0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on December 11, 2011, 08:52:54 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 10, 2011, 04:26:10 PM
I have recovered this post from the depths because while I was attempting to create a post on this topic, I had the nagging feeling that I had written it once before. Sure enough, I went through my Word files and found the original of this, got the date (1/30/2011) and went back and found it. Whether you find it interesting or not is totally up to you, but here it is anyway. :)

8)

At the suggestion of a curious member, I will try here to categorize the different phases and styles of Haydn's symphonies. It is a given that dealing with 108 works (plus a few others thrown in for good measure) makes it difficult to get a grip. In the particular case of Haydn's symphonies, the difficulties are greatly enhanced by such little foibles as his habit of not dating manuscripts. The distribution system at the time didn't help anything either, which is to say that if you, a visiting musician asked Haydn for a copy of a symphony of his, he would say OK, sit over there and copy it out from this. So there are lots of sets of parts with no provenance. And to make it more confusing still, a major fire at Esterhazy in 1779 destroyed the main opera house and its contents, including lots of Haydn's manuscripts. So extant copies are not originals, making the commonly used tools of paper and ink and handwriting analysis virtually useless.

Still, some talented and dedicated researchers have spent lifetimes figuring all this stuff out, and there are at least a few things that are settled.

The original chronology of the symphonies was first published by Eusebius Mandyczewski, the archivist for the Gesselschaft der Musikfreunde in Vienna after the famous Max Pohl died. Mandyczewski's list, published in 1907, has never been challenged as to its contents. Nothing has been removed as a result of further study, and only 2 things have been added (Symphonies A & B (107 & 108)). However, the chronology has been changed all to be damned. When I refer to a work here as #31, it is the Mandyczewski/Hoboken number. As long as you remember that that work is likely to be almost anything BUT the 31st symphony, you will be on solid ground... :D

In addition to chronology, there are categories that these works neatly fit into. Many of these lasted for his entire career, and even in his first 20 or so works all the major categories have appeared.

The actual musical terms are cribbed from Oxford Composer Companion to Haydn by David Wyn Jones. The historical contexts are pretty much the result of reading many books and putting together the pieces myself. I would like to footnote the entire thing, but I'm not going to. Looking up citation constantly is a pain in the ass, to be honest. Anyway, it's just us guys here (and Sara). :)

The Periods

How many periods do you divide 108 into? The more, obviously, the smaller they are. I like that, although if there is no stylistic difference then there's no point either in making yet another grouping. Nine is such a pleasant number, let's try that:

1. Symphonies composed before 1761. Why 1761? That's when he went to work for the Esterhazy's. These are they: 1, 2, 4, 5, 10, 11, 15, 18, 20, 27, 32, 33, 37 & 107 (Symphony A). That is numerical order, not chronological.

2. 1761c – 1763c – this is a group of 6 symphonies which are rather on the mysterious side. They fall into that group that are virtually impossible to date properly because no original manuscript copies exist. They are: 3, 14, 16, 17, 19, 25, 36 & 108 (Symphony B). It is my opinion that these works are from earlier rather than later, and probably were composed during the short term of service with Count Morzin.

3. Early Esterhazy Symphonies (1761 – 1765) – The first group of works composed specifically for the Esterhazys. I will add 6 works at the beginning which I feel belong there. You can accept or reject them as you will, it is all semantics anyway! In March/April 1761 Haydn started his employment. His first works were a set of 6 miniature symphonies in 4 movements each, fully orchestrated. He didn't call them symphonies, rather they were Scherzandi (Jokes). They each lasted <>10 minutes. You can find them in Hob II:33-38. So Hoboken calls them divertimentos for multiple instruments and I respectfully disagree. In any case the remainder of the output from that period includes the following symphonies: 6, 7, 8, 9, 12, 13, 21, 22, 23, 24, 28, 29, 30, 31, 34, 40 & 72.

4. Esterhazy Symphonies – 1766 – 1772. Ok, it's Stürm und Dräng time. Haydn's so-called crisis years. The symphonies written in these years are his most popular excepting the London's, and it's a near thing with those too! They include: 26, 35, 38, 39, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 52, 58, 59 & 106 (which is believed to be actually the overture to the opera 'Le Pescatrici' (the Fisher Girls)).

5. Esterhazy Symphonies – 1772 – 1781. A large and very mixed bag of works here. One characteristic that they all have in common is that there is not a single minor key work in the bunch! Stark contrast to the period immediately preceding, with its outsized proportion of minor and unusual (B major! :o ) keys. Clearly there are some works that were put together from other things, theatrical overtures for example, and possibly even instrumental music. An example is the slow movement of #65, which is believed to have started life as some incidental music for a production of Hamlet! What extent Haydn's main preoccupation in this time as opera impresario might have affected his symphonic work is unknown, but many works in this time have the kiss of the theater to them. They are the following: 50, 51, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 73, 74 & 75.

6. Symphonies from 1782 – 1784 – Call them what you will, but my choice is that these are Haydn's first mature symphonies in the Classical Style. They were composed for a trip to London where Haydn was to direct their premiere, but eventually sold to a Parisian publisher when that fell through. They are actually 2 sets of 3, just like the Paris Symphonies. I consider them to be neglected masterpieces; you be the judge. They are 76, 77, 78, 79, 80 & 81.

7. Paris Symphonies – 1785 – 1786 – Commissioned in 1784 by the Concerts de la Loge Olympique, a Paris concert organization. 3 were completed in 1785 and 3 more in 1786, but all 6 were first performed in the 1787 concert season. Haydn claimed the order of composition to be 87, 85, 83, 84, 86 & 82 but when he sold them to Artaria to publish, they ordered the set 82-87 and those numbers stuck.

8. Symphonies 1787 – 1789 – Just 5 in these years, although he was plenty busy writing other than symphonies. Any of us who are string quartet fans will have heard the story of the Tost Quartets, which Haydn entrusted to violinist Johann Tost to take to Paris for publication, and which he may or may not have ever gotten his money for. Anyway, on that same trip, Tost also had with him the manuscripts for 2 symphonies, now called #88 & 89. They were published by Silber in Paris. They are very likely the first symphonies since 1761 that weren't composed to be played at Esterhazy before anything else was done with them. Too bad for the Prince: #88 in G is one of my very favorites! :) #90-92 was another set of 3 that were originally composed for the Concerts de la Loge Olympique. Haydn was being Haydn though, and simultaneously sold them to a German publisher. #92 also served the purpose of being Haydn's doctoral dissertation in 1793 when he received his doctorate from Oxford. Good choice!

9. London Symphonies – 1791 – 1795 – 12 symphonies #93 – 104. Also the sinfonia concertante #105. The first 6 were commissioned by Salomon for the 1791 & 92 concert season, 99 – 101 for Salomon's 1794 season, and the final 3 for the Opera Concerts of 1795.

So that should cover all 108 plus the 6 Scherzandi. I hope I haven't missed any, or worse yet, duplicated any! If anyone is keen to discuss anything specific about any work or group of works, this is as good a place for it as any. I will also add in the corrected chronology that we talked about a few months ago. It should be timely located right here. I am hoping to expand on this by adding information about different types of symphonies and what made them different and why etc. I hope you will find that of interest also. And some further info on the orchestras he had to work with over the years and how that might have affected different compositions.

8)

Bravo Gurn! This helps me navigate through my new Haydn symphonies box (Dennis Russell Davies) which orders the symphonies in a similiar manner!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 11, 2011, 09:10:58 AM

Quote from: Leo K on December 11, 2011, 08:52:54 AM
Bravo Gurn! This helps me navigate through my new Haydn symphonies box (Dennis Russell Davies) which orders the symphonies in a similar manner!

Leo,
Good, pleased you found it useful. If I was redoing it now, there might be a change or 2 that I would make (like moving 92 into the London symphonies, which it is structurally and musically), but I think that overall it chunks things up rather nicely. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 11, 2011, 11:42:18 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 11, 2011, 09:02:42 AM
Oh yes, quite agree with that, it is very much con fuego. The 1771 version is just a good start, 3 or 4 minutes worth (depending who plays it), so I have no problem with a clavichord, since it never made it out of the workshop. But the full 1779 version that he completed and added to the other 5 ( in C, c#, D, Eb & G + c) is a great work. The whole set of 6 is, to me, superior to the previous set of 6 that he dedicated to the Prince. That was sort of a step backwards after the rather fiery works of the late 1760's. In any case, fortepiano is indeed the perfect instrument. In fact, when we get to 1779, you will discover that I chose Joanna Leach playing an early English square piano on that one, at least for now. :)

Additionally, this sonata was composed in minor mode, another quite special feature, always associated to works expressing very personal feelings. Curiously this year 1771, according to your chronology, joins together three of those superb, but unusual works composed in minor mode: the string quartet Op. 17 No. 4, the symphony No. 52 and this piano sonata. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 11, 2011, 12:41:13 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 11, 2011, 11:42:18 AM
Additionally, this sonata was composed in minor mode, another quite special feature, always associated to works expressing very personal feelings. Curiously this year 1771, according to your chronology, joins together three of those superb, but unusual works composed in minor mode: the string quartet Op. 17 No. 4, the symphony No. 52 and this piano sonata. :)

Yes, it was a good year. :) I think that it is far more appropriate, and in keeping with your opening sentence here, to call this compositional period 'The Romantic Crisis' than it is to call it 'Stürm und Dräng'. The former implies a personal thing, which I believe it was, while the latter is more aimed towards him playing some sort of intentional role in a minor social trend. I simply don't see that at all. Of course, it would be like changing the symphony numbers to New Chronology, it just isn't going to happen. 'Stürm und Dräng' just sounds so cool, after all! ::)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 11, 2011, 12:46:29 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2011, 03:53:31 AM
Well, when you get back home, check it out. First appearance of the meow in the Szell recording is at 3:15.

I'm slow again, Sarge . . . even the first subject seems to me plausibly feline. And while I don't think I should have come up with that on my own, that theme could be construed as miao-like : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 11, 2011, 12:57:43 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 11, 2011, 12:46:29 PM
I'm slow again, Sarge . . . even the first subject seems to me plausibly feline. And while I don't think I should have come up with that on my own, that theme could be construed as miao-like : )

Apparently, then, you too are a bit off ;D

Thanks for your support, Karl. I wonder if, a hundred years hence, when the label "Die Katze" or "The Cat" is accepted worldwide, history will remember where the name originated. It may be my only chance for immortality :D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on December 11, 2011, 04:56:40 PM

Quote from: jlaurson on December 11, 2011, 02:28:50 AM

2.) Cats don't just show themselves to everyone. 'Tis in their nature, and it only proves they're there!

Perhaps the proper name for this symphony should therefore be "The Cheshire Cat"?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 12, 2011, 05:38:33 PM

Part 21

1772
Life goes on. Musicians fight, get paid, get fired... all in Haydn's purview. Most importantly though, music gets composed and played. This is where Esterházy has it all over any other place in Europe; they have Haydn.

It had to happen, we've reached the end of the Stürm und Dräng. :'( According to the New Chronology*, Symphony Hob 45 in f# was composed in November of 1772. And the band packed up and left for Eisenstadt the next day. Yet they also list Symphony Hob 46 as being written after 45, yet still before the end of the year. My own interpretation is a bit different, simply because it jibes with my personal taste in how things should be; I think that Hob 45 is the last of the S & D symphonies, and that the name given it for so long is far more accurate than was ever supposed; it is the 'Farewell' symphony. It would be a few years before Haydn reached these heights and depths again. The next phase of symphonies was a lot different, and influenced by the Theater.

* New Chronology 45 = 55, 46 = 56 (Hob 47 45 46 = NC 54 55 56)

Hob 01_045 Symphony in f#
   Anima Eterna / Immerseel
Hob 01_046 Symphony in B
   Tafelmusik / Bruno Weil
Hob 01_047 Symphony in G
   L'Estro Armonico / Solomons
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnImmerseel4445cover-1.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnWeilSymphoniesboxcover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSolomons42-45-46-47-51-65newcover.jpg)

Hob 03_31 Quartet in Eb for Strings Op 20 #1
Hob 03_32 Quartet in C for Strings Op 20 #2
Hob 03_33 Quartet in g for Strings Op 20 #3
Hob 03_34 Quartet in D for Strings Op 20 #4
Hob 03_35 Quartet in f for Strings Op 20 #5
Hob 03_36 Quartet in A for Strings Op 20 #6
   Quatuor Festetics
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnFesteticsOp20cover.jpg)

Hob 11_097 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 5
Hob 11_098 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 5
Hob 11_099 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 5
Hob 11_100 Trio in F for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 5
Hob 11_101 Trio in C for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 5
Hob 11_102 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 5
Hob 11_103 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 5
Hob 11_104 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 5
Hob 11_105 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 5
Hob 11_106 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 5
   Esterhazy Ensemble
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Completebarytontrioscover.jpg)

Hob 15_02 Trio in F for Keyboard & Strings
   Trio 1790
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/1790v8.jpg)

Hob 17_03 Arietta with 12 Variations in Eb
   Christine Schornsheim
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardSchornsheimHaydn.jpg)

Hob 22_06 Nikolaimesse
   Rebel Baroque Orchestra / Burdick
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/51Yh1Av-J4L.jpg)

And still on that line, the works that completed the S & D cycle for Haydn were extraordinary, then as now. The only symphonies in the entire 18th century that were composed in the keys of f# minor and B major, for example. Not to mention the storied 'disappearing orchestra' in the f#'s finale. This was the symphonic phase that wouldn't go out with a bang, just the loudest whisper ever! How does one choose among all the rich offerings one finds in this work, even without going beyond the PI realm!?! My choice of Immerseel/Anima Eterna was not based on it being the only one I had, but it was on a par with half a dozen other performances and I elected to go with it because I like to hear a lot of different voices in my symphony cycles. L'Estro Armonico / Solomons are at least as good, but I have them in several others. If you have their version, you can't go wrong.

Now we come to what is likely the most influential chamber music cycle ever. Haydn's Op 20 broke all molds in terms of incorporating many disparate elements of old, 'learned' styles (fugues and counterpoint for example) with all 'modern' forms of sonata style. Anyone who was anyone in the world of music in the 1770 and for years afterwards learned something from these works, either directly or indirectly. And on top of the history involved, I must add just this; they are damned fun to listen to! As I said earlier in the Op 17 write-up, I chose the Festetics because it pleases my own particular taste in the performance of these works. They are clearly having a good time playing them, and I have a good time listening to them. But there are many, many good versions available. The Quatuor Mosaiques and the London Haydn Quartet are complete opuses. An outstanding single disk with #2 & #4 on it is performed by the Esterházy Quartet. There are likely others (The Salomon's?) that I don't have, and that doesn't even begin to mention the MI versions. The music is the important thing. :)

A lone keyboard trio, Hob 15:2 in F major. Actually a lovely little work, I haven't ever seen any reason for its composition so far from any mates. Maybe something will come to light one day to shed some here.

Another lone ranger, the Arietta with Variations for keyboard. It fell in the middle of a 12 year hiatus (1769 to 1781) for variation works. Very nice piece though, you should dig through your box of solo piano works and give it a special listen.

Finally, the first of a trio of masses from the mid-1770's. The Nikolaimesse was composed for the Prince's name day. It is in G major, and for soloists (S-A-T-B) & Chorus, 2 Oboes, 2 Horns, Strings & Continuo (Organ). I have chosen the Rebel Baroque version on Naxos, as they seem to hit it just right, from soloists through size of orchestra through ideal tempos. This one has other versions out there that are very good too, like Tafelmusik/Weil.

So there is 1772. A good year, no doubt. There are new things in the offing for Haydn, a mass of new musical challenges right around the corner. But for now, things are quiet in that little corner of Hungary. :)

Please, feel free to comment, correct, add, subtract, (but don't divide, please :D ). I love to discuss Haydn with all comers!

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnTriosMathotManzeLindencover.jpg) Tini Mathot (Fortepiano) \ Andrew Manze (Violin) \ Jaap ter Linden (Cello) - Hob 15_25 Trio in G for Keyboard & Strings 3rd mvmt - Rondo in the Hungarian Style: Presto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 13, 2011, 07:42:10 AM

Gurn - thanks again for your continuing chronological saga of Haydn's career - a lot of those pics look familiar, also being in my collection, but a lot of new ones - I'm fine w/ my quartet collection except in obtaining the newest of the London Haydn Quartet, which will be added to my wish list! But I'll need to work on some PI additions to the early & middle symphonies! Dave :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41uiAiFJSaL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on December 13, 2011, 08:04:12 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 11, 2011, 02:49:24 PM
Beghin on Naxos is even more historically inclined than Schornsheim! I strongly recommend his set, it's a bargain for 13 CD's plus a 3 hour DVD from which I learned a lot! He has divided up the total into 10 programs that are related, and plays each program on a suitable instrument. This is a very interesting set. :)

Thanks for that, hope you find it useful too.

8)

Noted, and ordered from Arkiv Music who is having a Naxos sale. @ $35 I could not pass up on another set of these works on PI, plus the DVD should prove well worth having.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 13, 2011, 08:18:32 AM

Quote from: Arnold on December 13, 2011, 08:04:12 AM
Noted, and ordered from Arkiv Music who is having a Naxos sale. @ $35 I could not pass up on another set of these works on PI, plus the DVD should prove well worth having.

:)

I think you will be pleased, Arnold. I found the entire presentation quite fascinating. Can't go wrong at the price, either. :)

Quote from: SonicMan46 on December 13, 2011, 07:42:10 AM
Gurn - thanks again for your continuing chronological saga of Haydn's career - a lot of those pics look familiar, also being in my collection, but a lot of new ones - I'm fine w/ my quartet collection except in obtaining the newest of the London Haydn Quartet, which will be added to my wish list! But I'll need to work on some PI additions to the early & middle symphonies! Dave :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41uiAiFJSaL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

My pleasure, Dave. I hope that it brings up some things that most folks don't know. I find my own appreciation is always enhanced by knowing more.

I am going to get that Op 20 also. I listened to that Esterházy 4tet disk last night and bemoaned that they only did those 2 quartets. Sure were nice though. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 13, 2011, 08:57:47 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 13, 2011, 08:18:32 AM
I am going to get that Op 20 also. I listened to that Esterházy 4tet disk last night and bemoaned that they only did those 2 quartets. Sure were nice though. :)

I wonder if they play the Op. 17 and Op. 20 in the same relaxed way that they used in the Op. 9. Their Op. 9 was my first Op. 9 played on PI and I loved it, when I got it, specially because of the beautiful tone of those PI. After that, I purchased the same opus performed by the Festetics and it was a revelation; not just the instruments, but the interpretation, alive and full of verve. So, I will vividly be interested in your opinions, gentlemen.

Here a comparison (Op. 9) between the Festetics and the London Haydn Quartet that I posted some time ago:

http://www.divshare.com/flash/playlist?myId=7218363-0da

http://www.goear.com/files/external.swf?file=52b854a

P.S.: The volume of both archives can be regulated.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 13, 2011, 09:09:31 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 13, 2011, 08:57:47 AM
I wonder if they play the Op. 17 and Op. 20 in the same relaxed way that they used in the Op. 9. Their Op. 9 was my first Op. 9 played on PI and I loved it, when I got it, specially because of the beautiful tone of those PI. After that, I purchased the same opus performed by the Festetics and it was a revelation; not just the instruments, but the interpretation, alive and full of verve. So, I will vividly interested in your opinions, gentlemen.

I remember well that comparison. Thank you. It convinced me I had to have the London Haydn op.9. I couldn't believe how profoundly deep they made young Papa sound. I too had a revelation, not just the beauty of the instruments, but the interpretation ;)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 13, 2011, 09:14:24 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 13, 2011, 09:09:31 AM
I remember well that comparison. Thank you. It convinced me I had to have the London Haydn op.9. I couldn't believe how profoundly deep they made young Papa sound. I too had a revelation, not just the beauty of the instruments, but the interpretation ;)

Sarge

Sorry if my words sounded derogatory regarding the Haydn London Quartet, but that wasn't my intention at all. The reason to post those archives was precisely to allow a personal comparison. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 13, 2011, 09:29:18 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 13, 2011, 09:14:24 AM
Sorry if my words sounded derogatory regarding the Haydn London Quartet, but that wasn't my intention at all. The reason to post those archives was precisely to allow a personal comparison. :)

And I appreciate that. I too am curious if The London Haydn maintain the same style in the op.20. Looking forward to comments from those in the know.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 13, 2011, 12:04:26 PM

O Gurn . . . so that there ~~fragmentary~~ incomplete final string quartet is both Op.77 № 3 and Op.103, is that the tale?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 13, 2011, 12:28:26 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 13, 2011, 12:04:26 PM
O Gurn . . . so that there ~~fragmentary~~ incomplete final string quartet is both Op.77 № 3 and Op.103, is that the tale?

If it had been completed in a timely way, it would have been Op 77 #3. Since it was 4 years later when he finally gave up on it, it became Op 103. So yes, that is the sad tale.

"Gone forever is my strength,
old and weak am I..."

from Der Greis (The Old Man, one of his part-songs). Used by Haydn on his visitor's card.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 14, 2011, 05:00:01 AM

Well, this two-fer of Kuijken leading the symphonies nos. 88-92 is lovely, indeed.

And though I have only just started into the Quatuor Mosaïques box, I like it a great deal, too. Which is no disloyalty to the Amadeus Quartet . . . the music works well in both manners.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on December 14, 2011, 08:51:57 PM

(http://image.allmusic.com/00/acg/cov200/cl200/l247/l24763i2x58.jpg)

Haydn
String Quartets
Pro Arte String Quartet
Testament

Just ordered this early Christmas present for myself.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on December 14, 2011, 09:43:06 PM

Quote from: George on December 14, 2011, 08:51:57 PM
(http://image.allmusic.com/00/acg/cov200/cl200/l247/l24763i2x58.jpg)

Haydn
String Quartets
Pro Arte String Quartet
Testament

Just ordered this early Christmas present for myself.

That's good if it's got the Op 50s and Op 64/6

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on December 14, 2011, 09:58:43 PM

Has anyone heard Cuarteto Casals play Op 33s? I'm looking for a good Op 33 -- I'm not really happy with the ones I have. Apponyi is tight and exciting but too gruff and the intonation is about as enjoyable as a dentist's drill. They also underline and overstate the music too strongly for me, if you know what I mean. It's not subtle. Festetics sounds good and they bring out the ling line, but they're too laid back. Maybe the Lindsays is the best of the bunch that I have -- I need to listen again.

Anyway I'm hoping that Cuarteto Casals are as tight and intense as Apponyi with a more congenial sound -- and more humour too. That's how they sound from these clips of a concert in Spain a couple of years ago, though maybe the slow movement of the Joke is a bit incoherent-- see what you think.

http://www.youtube.com/v/rkg_VNKo_8g http://www.youtube.com/v/3DJd6Zt3gpE

Apponyi is too teutonic and grim for me really.

This interest in Op 33 started because I've been really enjoying Op 33/1. If you know of any really outstanding 33/1s let me know.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on December 15, 2011, 03:13:31 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on December 14, 2011, 09:58:43 PM
Has anyone heard Cuarteto Casals play Op 33s? I'm looking for a good Op 33 -- I'm not really happy with the ones I have. Apponyi is tight and exciting but too gruff and the intonation is about as enjoyable as a dentist's drill. They also underline and overstate the music too strongly for me, if you know what I mean. It's not subtle. Festetics sounds good and they bring out the ling line, but they're too laid back. Maybe the Lindsays is the best of the bunch that I have -- I need to listen again.

Anyway I'm hoping that Cuarteto Casals are as tight and intense as Apponyi with a more congenial sound -- and more humour too. That's how they sound from these clips of a concert in Spain a couple of years ago, though maybe the slow movement of the Joke is a bit incoherent-- see what you think.

Apponyi is too teutonic and grim for me really.

This interest in Op 33 started because I've been really enjoying Op 33/1. If you know of any really outstanding 33/1s let me know.

I'm quite astonished at your impressions / reactions to these various performances. I can find no issue with the intonation of the Appónyi... (but can find issue on that account with The Lindsays (to some degree) and certainly with the Festetics... but would never call the latter 'laid back'. Certainly Casals isn't furious... I found those recordings to be less than I had hoped they'd be. http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=2259 (http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=2259) Or maybe not... re-reading what I wrote about them, now. :-)

QuoteThe Casals Quartet does the short'n'brash in a few places where it pleases them, but goes for extreme legato elsewhere. ...

in individual movements the Casals Quartet attempts to break speed records...

the Quatuor Casals, also with a great 33/1, attempts a new definition of HIP elements from a solidly 'modern traditional stance'. (It does get confusing with what, those modern old traditions and very modern traditional, original approaches—to the point where the terms blur to become completely meaningless.)...

The Casals kids take it abrasively, with very flexible tempi, dynamics, portamenti, altogether at a measured clip which means less a slow down for the second part. The sull'istessa corda played out with gusto and it's hard not to think that they might not have taken the Appónyi recording as a reference...

Movement-by-movement, for example, the Quatuor Casals is the most impressive: awesome technique, unafraid of extremes, full of individuality. But taken as a whole, their recording doesn't reveal that; in fact theirs comes in rather less exciting than the Buchberger, Mosaïques, and Appónyi recordings. ...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on December 15, 2011, 03:31:10 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on December 15, 2011, 03:13:31 AM
I'm quite astonished at your impressions / reactions to these various performances. I can find no issue with the intonation of the Appónyi... (but can find issue on that account with The Lindsays (to some degree) and certainly with the Festetics... but would never call the latter 'laid back'. Certainly Casals isn't furious... I found those recordings to be less than I had hoped they'd be. http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=2259 (http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=2259) Or maybe not... re-reading what I wrote about them, now. :-)

Thanks for the review of the CC CD. Have you heard their Brahms?

You're right about the intonation of the Apponyi. Thanks for correcting me. I should have said timbre:

Apponyi is tight and exciting but too gruff and the ~~intonation~~ timbre is about as enjoyable as a dentist's drill.

The intonation of the Lindsays is often criticised negatively. I find their Op 33 interesting for its good humour amongst other things. I like their timbre.

If you listent to say Apponyi and Festetics in the final movement of 33/1 then you'll see straight away why I say that the latter are laid back.

I love the Festetics' sound -- esp the cello.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on December 15, 2011, 03:32:43 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on December 14, 2011, 09:43:06 PM
That's good if it's got the Op 50s and Op 64/6

It has one from Op. 50, the rest is in Volume 2:

Pro Arte Quartet. "Quartets, Vol. 1". Incl. Op. 20, Nos. 2 & 5; Op. 50, No. 3; Op. 64, Nos. 3-4; Op. 76, Nos. 3-4; Op. 54, Nos. 1-3; Op. 74, No. 3; Op. 77, No. 2; Op. 1, No. 1

Pro Arte Quartet. "Quartets, Vol. 2". Incl. Op. 1, No. 6; Op. 33, Nos. 2-3, 6; Op. 55, Nos. 1, 3; Op. 54, No. 1; Op. 50, No. 6; Op. 20, No. 4; Op. 64, No. 6; Op. 74, No. 2

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on December 15, 2011, 06:19:52 AM

Nice to see the Thread up!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 15, 2011, 12:32:12 PM

Part 22

1773
The year that everything changed! Nicolaus had always been a man of nearly uncontrollable enthusiasms. And now he had developed one for opera. High opera. Italian opera. His little corner of the world, with its overwhelming pleasure palaces, now had some new things to amuse. Of course, that nice concert hall down the drive, and a full opera house, and now a marionette opera facility too. And for the next 15 years, Haydn, in addition to his other responsibilities, was also going to be a full-blown impresario. Literally so, not just in name. From hiring the singers to buying the libretti and scores, to commissioning the scenery painting. Then wearing his other hat as Music Director he wrote replacement arias whenever the available voice couldn't handle original tessitura. Then in his role as conductor of the band, he personally rehearsed the orchestra and conducted the performances.

And that was just for the opera. It is no wonder that his symphonic output in those years changed considerably. As one example from this year of 1773, the first two movements of his symphony Hob 50 are actually the overture to his music for a prelude to the marionette opera Philemon & Baucis called Der Götterat. It is believed that the 4th movement is also the finale of the play. It is a little drama about the gods on Olympus fighting over earth (as always). The opera itself premiered in September of 1773, so the prelude was the first in a long, long line of operatic productions for the Esterhäzy Opera House, all of them led by Haydn.

Well, he did have a bit of time for some keyboard sonatas anyway....

The music of 1773;

Hob 01a_01 L'Infedeltà Delusa: Sinfonia in C
Hob 01a_08 Philemon und Baucis: Overture in d (both published separately from their operas)
   Manfred Huss / Haydn Sinfonietta Wien
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnOverturescover.jpg)

Hob 01_050 Symphony in C
   Manfred Huss / Haydn Sinfonietta Wien
Hob 01_051 Symphony in Bb
   Tafelmusik / Bruno Weil
Hob 01_064 Symphony in A
   Apollo Ensemble / Hsu
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnTheatricalSymphoniescover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnWeilSymphoniesboxcover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HidHyd.jpg)

Hob 12_13 Sonata in D for Baryton Solo
Hob 12_14 Sonata in D for Baryton Solo
   Esterhazy Ensemble
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Completebarytontrioscover.jpg)

Hob 16_21 Sonata #36 in D for Keyboard
   Riko Fukuda*
Hob 16_22 Sonata #37 in E for Keyboard
   Ursula Dütschler*
Hob 16_23 Sonata #38 in F for Keyboard
   Hans Ludwig Hirsch
Hob 16_24 Sonata #39 in D for Keyboard
   Ronald Brautigam
Hob 16_25 Sonata #40 in Eb for Keyboard
   Yoshiko Kojima*
Hob 16_26 Sonata #41 in A for Keyboard
   Richard Burnett
Hob 16_33 Sonata #34 in D for Keyboard
   Bart van Oort* [* all recordings from the same set]
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardSonatasCompleteBrilliantcover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardHirschcover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardCompleteBrautigamcover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardBurnettEarlyPianoscover.jpg)

Hob 22_05 Mass in C 'Missa Cellensis'
   Collegium musicum 90 / Richard Hickox
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Hickoxmasses.jpg)

Hob 28_05 Opera "La Infedelta Delusa"
   Liszt Ferenc Chamber Orchestra, Budapest / Sandor
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnBigBox.jpg)

Hob 29a_01 Marionette Opera "Philemon und Baucis"
   Manfred Huss / Haydn Sinfonietta Wien
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussBauciscover.jpg)

Hob 29a_01a Der Götterrath: Sinfonia in C
   Manfred Huss / Haydn Sinfonietta Wien
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnOverturescover.jpg)

A nice recording is available now of the various overtures. Not all of them are the various opera overtures, there are several one movement orchestral pieces that don't appear, at least, to be the overtures to anything at all, they are just one movement orchestral pieces. And for those of you who don't care for opera anyway, this 2 disk set does give out the instrumental parts of all of them, plus some intermezzi from the oratorios as well. This would be the only collected works recording, AFAIK. :)

As always, there are more than a few excellent recordings of these symphonies, so I am just putting my own favorites out there, with a slant on mixing up the players for variety. As we move forward in time, that becomes easier and easier to do, since the later works have received so much more attention. I needn't mention that this goes against my personal principles, I suppose you all know that anyway. :)

Since we are in the middle of the long spread of the final book of baryton trios, and since Haydn was meeting new challenges that year, we took a veer away from them this time and just listen to these 2 lovely solo baryton sonatas. Just tiny fragments of larger originals, really, but a nice chance to hear some solo work on this rare instrument.

Nice to see a renewed interest in keyboard sonatas this year though. This set of 6 sonatas (Landon #36-41) were the only ones dedicated to a male person (the Prince, of course). They are written in a popular style of the time, to paraphrase C.P.E. Bach, they are for Liebhaber, not for Kenner! I can safely say that you will enjoy them, they are very pleasant pieces. And we also have #33 in there, this was a singleton (a rarity in those times) that is also a nice listen.

So finally we get to the part of Haydn's career where big vocal works are the rule rather than the exception. Operas (Italian and Marionette (which were German Singspiels usually)), masses, oratorios; he would use the training he got in Vienna in the 1750's from Metastasio and Porpora to move ahead now down a new road.

The Mass in C in Honorem BVM 'Missa Cellensis' was long thought to date from 1766, but it has more recently been recognized from this 1773 period. It is in 18 parts lasting over 65 minutes! If you want to hear a true 'High Mass', then this is the one for you. It is his longest by far. I think Hickox & Co. do a fine job of it, although there are other very good versions available.

First Italian opera since 'Le pescatrici', and the first for the new opera house, L'infedeltà delusa (Deceit outwitted) is a comedy (burlesca) from a score by Coltellini. It was first performed in July for the nameday of the Prince's mother, and again in September during a famous visit by Empress Maria Teresa, after which she declared that if she wanted to see an opera, Esterháza was the place to go. While she was there, she also saw the marionette opera Philemon & Baucis and was so impressed that a couple of years later she borrowed the entire kit and caboodle from the Prince and treated herself in Vienna.

Please feel free to discuss. I certainly would appreciate some feedback on these essays to help to make them useful for you. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnMinkowskicover.jpg) Musicians of the Louvre, Grenoble \ Minkowski - Hob 01_102 Symphony in Bb 3rd mvmt - Menuet: Allegro - Trio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on December 15, 2011, 04:44:03 PM

This question just occurred to me--did Haydn write anything overtly linked to the Christmas season?

It would be nice to expand my usual reliance on Bach, Handel and Palestrina (and, this year, a new addition, Tallis's Puer natus est Mass).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 15, 2011, 04:49:24 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 15, 2011, 04:44:03 PM
This question just occurred to me--did Haydn write anything overtly linked to the Christmas season?

It would be nice to expand my usual reliance on Bach, Handel and Palestrina (and, this year, a new addition, Tallis's Puer natus est Mass).

:( If so, it will be new to me. Running through all lists and coming up blank. He was big on Easter though. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing: (I call them the No Name Trio)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnFortepianoTriosNoNameTriocover.jpg) Klinckerfuss (Fortepiano) Lautenbacher (Violin) Ostertag (Cello) - Hob 15_28 Trio #44 in E for Keyboard & Strings 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on December 15, 2011, 06:15:56 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 15, 2011, 04:49:24 PM
:( If so, it will be new to me. Running through all lists and coming up blank. He was big on Easter though. :)

8)

Well, if we can't find one, we can stretch it a little bit.

Reading through the liner notes of the Naxos Masses box, it seems that the Missa in tempore belli was first performed on 26 December 1797. The occasion had nothing to do with Christmas--apparently it was the ordination as priest of somebody or other who had an important father--but we can pretend otherwise, can't we?

And of course the Nikolaimesse would have been written for 6 December, although we're a tad late on that one already.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 16, 2011, 04:24:24 AM

From our perspective, wherein Christmas is a huge do which kicks off at the end of October, and a commercial concern which keeps many a business afloat, it may a strange thing seem . . . but it is a church Feast which was not always a big deal, even in Christendom.

Proof that it is a "secular holy day"? In Christianity, really it is Easter which is the center of the liturgical year, and of the Faith.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on December 16, 2011, 06:08:36 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 16, 2011, 04:24:24 AM
From our perspective, wherein Christmas is a huge do which kicks off at the end of October, and a commercial concern which keeps many a business afloat, it may a strange thing seem . . . but it is a church Feast which was not always a big deal, even in Christendom.

Proof that it is a "secular holy day"? In Christianity, really it is Easter which is the center of the liturgical year, and of the Faith.

The Baroque was more Christmas-oriented than the Classical era.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51c6ad4aIXL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/612XjjsHvxL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

But I firmly believe that both the Baroquers and the Classickers would have been appalled by our "Christmas"...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 16, 2011, 09:02:22 AM

Gurn - Susan & I don't do opera but I have a few overture discs of several composers - however, that 2-disc Haydn collection w/ Huss on BIS is tempting and at a decent price on Amazon along w/ a supportive and positive review by a guy name Gurn Blanston - ;) ;D

Will add to my 'wish list' - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 16, 2011, 09:14:05 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 15, 2011, 12:32:12 PM
Part 22

Another fine installment, Gurn, of your serialized mini Haydn biography. Much appreciated.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 16, 2011, 09:49:25 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on December 16, 2011, 09:02:22 AM
Gurn - Susan & I don't do opera but I have a few overture discs of several composers - however, that 2-disc Haydn collection w/ Huss on BIS is tempting and at a decent price on Amazon along w/ a supportive and positive review by a guy name Gurn Blanston - ;) ;D

Will add to my 'wish list' - Dave :)

I think you will like that Dave, it is up your alley! Really, they are more like high quality Italian Sinfonias, you know? Haydn hadn't (early times) got into the Mozart thing of incorporating themes from the arias and such into the overture. So they are just nice, one and two-movement orchestral works, identifiably Haydnische! :)

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 16, 2011, 09:14:05 AM
Another fine installment, Gurn, of your serialized mini Haydn biography. Much appreciated.

Sarge

You are most welcome, Sarge. I am trying to get better at it and give some solid info. I think there is a lot more musicological info available than ordered biographical stuff. If it increases your enjoyment of the music, then it is OTT successful for me! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 16, 2011, 06:08:12 PM

I imagine I will be not the only Haydnisto interested in this new release:

[asin]B0062Z22DK[/asin]

It includes all the three violin concertos (Nos. 1, 3 & 4).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 16, 2011, 06:19:50 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 16, 2011, 06:08:12 PM
I imagine I will be not the only Haydnisto interested in this new release:

[asin]B0062Z22DK[/asin]

It includes all the three violin concertos (Nos. 1, 3 & 4).

Thanks, Antoine. I have pre-ordered it. Certainly something to look forward to. Carmignola must also be leading from the Konzertmeister chair while M. Herreweghe naps, eh? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 16, 2011, 06:27:14 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 16, 2011, 06:19:50 PM
Carmignola must also be leading from the Konzertmeister chair while M. Herreweghe naps, eh? :)

Yes, I think so. I don't easily imagine Herreweghe conducting Haydn. He's too stern.

(http://inkpot.com/classical/people/herreweghe.jpg)

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 16, 2011, 06:29:04 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 16, 2011, 06:27:14 PM
Yes, I think so. I don't easily imagine Herreweghe conducting Haydn. He's too stern.

(http://inkpot.com/classical/people/herreweghe.jpg)

:)

Yes, I agree with that, although I am greatly fond of his Beethoven 9. That is a disk to have. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 16, 2011, 06:36:14 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 16, 2011, 06:29:04 PM
Yes, I agree with that, although I am greatly fond of his Beethoven 9. That is a disk to have. :)

The violin concerto, right? Nice disc, indeed. But Beethoven was very serious about his own genius. He considered himself an Artist with capitals. On the other hand, our Papa was a simple craftsman wearing livery. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lethevich on December 16, 2011, 07:01:27 PM

Gurn, this biography series proves more and more helpful to me. I always knew that his ending of the S&D period of symphonies was just a stylistic choice rather than a 'decline', but I wasn't aware of quite how logical and neccessary that choice was given his day to day life - especially with the material reused from all the operas he suddenly had to compose. It's cool to know the impulse behind the change, rather than my previously "meh he just felt like something different" kind of assumption.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 16, 2011, 07:15:24 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 16, 2011, 06:36:14 PM
The violin concerto, right? Nice disc, indeed. But Beethoven was very serious about his own genius. He considered himself an Artist with capitals. On the other hand, our Papa was a simple craftsman wearing livery. :)

::) No, not the 9th Violin Concerto, the 9th Symphony! Same band. Yes, world of difference in attitude between those two! And you know, that was exactly the reason for the derision of Haydn in the 19th century. Apparently it was necessary to be full of oneself in that era. ::)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 16, 2011, 07:19:29 PM

Quote from: Lethevich Dmitriyevna Pettersonova on December 16, 2011, 07:01:27 PM
Gurn, this biography series proves more and more helpful to me. I always knew that his ending of the S&D period of symphonies was just a stylistic choice rather than a 'decline', but I wasn't aware of quite how logical and neccessary that choice was given his day to day life - especially with the material reused from all the operas he suddenly had to compose. It's cool to know the impulse behind the change, rather than my previously "meh he just felt like something different" kind of assumption.

Lethe,
Thanks very much for the input. Just the sort of thing that helps me to decide whether to include something or not (can't put everything in, he got really old! :o :D ). Oddly enough (or not?), I labored under the same misconception for a long time, simply because reviewers would just say "well, the symphonies of the 1770's sure weren't the emotional equal of their predecessors..." without giving the slightest indication why. And of course, they couldn't get away from qualitative comparison despite the fact that it was totally subjective, thus meaningless. So researching it taught me that too! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on December 17, 2011, 01:52:13 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 16, 2011, 06:08:12 PM
I imagine I will be not the only Haydnisto interested in this new release:

[asin]B0062Z22DK[/asin]

It includes all the three violin concertos (Nos. 1, 3 & 4).

I'm sure this will be a great disc, but let's not forget about this currently available budget release:

[asin]B002NWRMSQ[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 17, 2011, 02:44:34 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 16, 2011, 09:49:25 AMI think there is a lot more musicological info available than ordered biographical stuff.

My favorite biographies strike a good balance between personal life and musicology. You're following in that tradition 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 17, 2011, 03:56:15 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on December 17, 2011, 01:52:13 AM
I'm sure this will be a great disc, but let's not forget about this currently available budget release:

[asin]B002NWRMSQ[/asin]

That's the same cycle that came in Brilliant's Big Box. It is indeed a worthy disk (although the single disk releases of Big Box disks can be confusing sometimes... 'Do I have that?'). When you got the Biondi Mozart recently, we discussed somewhere the different approach of Italian HIP-PI's and German/Dutch/Brit HIP-PI's. I think Carmignola (one of the great fiddlers) will bring n interesting approach with him (just as all others do!). :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 17, 2011, 03:57:18 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 17, 2011, 02:44:34 AM
My favorite biographies strike a good balance between personal life and musicology. You're following in that tradition 8)

Sarge

That is very kind of you, Sarge. Merci, Danke, gracias! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on December 17, 2011, 07:06:13 AM

Gurn, great stuff and I deeply appreciate your work!

Bravo!

8)

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/224933)

I'm listening to the Festetics Op.20 on your recommentation and WOW. I love the texture the period instruments and playing provide for these works! Great sounding recording! The C Major of the set is fast becoming my favorite quartet of all time, at least it always hovers at the top!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 17, 2011, 07:26:48 AM

Quote from: Leo K on December 17, 2011, 07:06:13 AM
Gurn, great stuff and I deeply appreciate your work!

Bravo!

8)

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/224933)

I'm listening to the Festetics Op.20 on your recommentation and WOW. I love the texture the period instruments and playing provide for these works! Great sounding recording! The C Major of the set is fast becoming my favorite quartet of all time, at least it always hovers at the top!
8)

Thanks so much, Leo. And I am delighted that you enjoy that Op 20. The music itself is impeccable, and that recording is just so entertainingly performed. I really like that #2 quartet too!

Cheers,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 17, 2011, 07:27:44 AM

Part 23

1774

This was a year in which preparations for an all-out assault on Italian opera continued for the Prince, and thus for Haydn. He didn't write any new operas this year though. His big vocal work was instead an Italian oratorio based on a book of the Apocrypha (The Book of Tobit) and called Il Ritorno di Tobia (The Return of Tobias). It was written on commission from the Tönkunstler-Societät of Vienna, which was a benevolent society for the widows and orphans of musicians. That is something to remember for down the road, when we will hear from them again. In any case, the libretto was written by Giovanni Boccherini, the brother of the composer. The Italian oratorio of that time was virtually an opera seria without actors. It had strict rules for recitative and arias. That is important because Boccherini wrote the libretto in such strict form that he more or less took all the possibility for drama, splendor and wit out of it. Which is a pity, because Haydn could have really done a lot with the story of Tobit, it is stirring to read in context in the Bible. In any case, his music is beautiful, but the overall work is not the sort of thing that would please very much today. It certainly did in 1775 though, it was a big hit and after Haydn's initial stint as conductor for the premiere, it was repeated many times by the Society and helped them to raise a lot of money.

In addition, there are several symphonies (at least one of which (Hob 60) is entirely based on incidental music (written for the French comedy Il Distratto). In keeping with the discussions we have been having, recordings are slim. The music is finely crafted and thoroughly enjoyable though.

Here is the music of 1774:

Hob 01a_02 Il Ritorno di Tobia: Overture in c & C
   Manfred Huss / Haydn Sinfonietta Wien
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnOverturescover.jpg)

Hob 01_054 Symphony in G
Hob 01_055 Symphony in Eb
Hob 01_056 Symphony in C
Hob 01_057 Symphony in D
   Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood
Hob 01_060 Symphony in C 'Il distratto'
   Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HogwoodVol08Cover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnTheatricalSymphoniescover.jpg)

Hob 11_107 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 5   Esterhazy Ensemble
Hob 11_108 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 5   Esterhazy Ensemble
Hob 11_109 Trio in C for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 5   Esterhazy Ensemble
Hob 11_110 Trio in C for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 5   Esterhazy Ensemble
Hob 11_111 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 5   Esterhazy Ensemble
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Completebarytontrioscover.jpg)

Hob 16_27 Sonata #42 in G for Keyboard
   Stanley Hoogland*
Hob 16_28 Sonata #43 in Eb for Keyboard
   Rachel Heard
Hob 16_29 Sonata #44 in F for Keyboard
   Derek Adlam
Hob 16_30 Sonata #45 in A for Keyboard
   Ursula Dütschler*
Hob 16_31 Sonata #46 in F for Keyboard
   Riko Fukuda*
Hob 16_32 Sonata #47 in b for Keyboard
   Lola Odiaga

*These artists are all part of the same cycle
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardSonatasCompleteBrilliantcover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardSonatasRHeardcover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardAdlamclavichordcover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardOdiaga1cover-1.jpg)

Hob 21_1 Oratorio "Il Ritorno di Tobia"
   Capella Augustina / A, Spering Vocal Ensemble Köln
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Tobiacover.jpg)

The Tobia overture is another nice inclusion in the Huss overtures set. If you haven't the patience for an Italian Oratorio Serioso, then this very nice little overture is available to you anyway. The major/minor key center dichotomy is nicely played up here. Something that would become more common and popular 25 years later. But you heard it here first (as so often with Haydn).

Symphonies 54-57 really need some love! They are certainly excellent symphonies, but you know how it goes, people are always more attracted to emotion and drama, and I guess it was a sort of post-Dräng depression that sent early commentators (that is, from the 19th and 20th centuries) to their pens to note how these 1770's symphonies just didn't kick them in the crotch the way the earlier ones did. Ignore those guys! :) The Adagio assai of #54, for example, is one of Haydn's longest and most deeply felt slow movements, and this from the acknowledged master of the slow movement. It is wonderful! I am very pleased with the Hogwood version of all 4 of these works, although there is little to compare them to, since Brüggen, Pinnock, Goodman et al, gave up on this era. Their loss, IMO. The only other PI recordings that I know of are those by L'Estro Armonico / Solomons, but I only have them as downloads (very nice they are, too) and I never recommend disks that I can't even buy for myself. >:( There are a few more versions of #60 (I have Hogwood and Harnoncourt in addition to Huss). If you haven't already determined to support the Huss Machine on BIS, the Harnoncourt box on Warner, which contains all of the Concentus Musicus symphony recordings except for the Paris ones is a great buy.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHarnoncourtSymphoniescover.jpg)

Well, we are up to 111 trios for baryton, viola & cello now. The amazing thing to me is that in all this time, and with all this music, Haydn never lost his inspiration for writing consistently great music here. The fact that there were so many contemporary arrangements speaks to that. An interesting recording of one, arranged for 3 Basset Horns, can be found here:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnBarytonTriosforBassetHornscover.jpg)

That is merely 1 example of the many that are out there, including string trios, flute trios and manifold others. One should try any of these just for interest.

Six more keyboard sonatas this year too. I think you will certainly find something to like here. Haydn is, by this time, a past master of the keyboard sonata. He entertains with melody, structure, rhetorical devices and confounded expectations. These recordings span a variety of styles of player and keyboard. The variety comes right along in the Brilliant box, featuring 3 different players in a group of 6 works from the same year. I also wanted to introduce Rachel Heard, whose disk on Naxos is an even better bargain than usual on that label, also featuring a very nice Hob 17_6 for later on.

And finally the oratorio. Not well-represented in the discography anyway, surprisingly it is not difficult to obtain the only 2 versions, the 1971 Hungaroton is licensed to Brilliant in the Big Box, and then the outstanding Naxos version by the Capella Augustina / Spering, a fine PI version that is really all you need for this work.

Anyway, that's what we have this time. I thank all of you who have given me some feedback. I hope that incorporating some of that into these essays will improve their utility for you. In any case, enjoy the music!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on December 17, 2011, 08:28:12 AM

Excellant Gurn!

By the way, I've gone back to 1767 for a spell, to listen to Symphony no.58 in F major. I am fascinated by the dance-like character of each movement, as it really projects a social-like mood to the whole work. There are moments of hidden troubles here and there, such as heard in the andante and the trio in the minuet, that contrast exceptionally with the galant-like mood heard in general.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 17, 2011, 08:42:03 AM

Quote from: Leo K on December 17, 2011, 08:28:12 AM
Excellant Gurn!

By the way, I've gone back to 1767 for a spell, to listen to Symphony no.58 in F major. I am fascinated by the dance-like character of each movement, as it really projects a social-like mood to the whole work. There are moments of hidden troubles here and there, such as heard in the second movement, that contrast exceptionally with the galant-like mood heard in general.

Thanks. :)

Ah, very good. Those works deserve a lot more of my listening attention too. I like that fact that he contrasts galant against Empfindsang (aside: spelling suggestion for the previous word: windsurfing ::) ) a lot. C.P.E. Bach, head of the Empfindsang'ers, rarely did that, he was purely one way in one work, while his brother J.C was purely the other way (all galant). This was the root of the North German musicians' exception to Haydn. He actually mixed feelings together in the same work! :o Can you imagine? :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on December 17, 2011, 08:45:45 AM

My feelings exactly Gurn! This trait of Haydn is so special and unique, and probably influenced Mozart's approach on some level.

By the way, I'm reading an interesting article on Haydn's string quartets by scholar George Edwards, and I find the quote below to put in words my feelings of why Haydn is so great and meaningful to me:

From The Nonsense of an Ending: Closure in Haydn's String Quartets

QuoteMy contention is that organic unity, balance, and closure are not the objects of Haydn's art, but some of its subjects. The value in Haydn's works is not that they are perfect (even when we think they are), but rather that, like ourselves, they search for resolution or closure more often than they find it. Haydn constantly questions the attainability of the goals of formalist aesthetics. His quartets attempt to unify the most diverse materials against great odds. Sometimes, as with the "wager" of op. 33, no. 2, he seems to fail deliberately to resolve the work, even, or especially, when the obstacles to such resolution seem lacking or easy to overcome. The "Joke" quartet or the "Farewell" symphony are not exceptional in the way they look askance at the conventions of closure; they are merely extreme examples of an essential feature of many of Haydn's masterpieces--an ironic distance from some of the very conventions he helped to establish.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 17, 2011, 09:00:57 AM

Quote from: Leo K on December 17, 2011, 08:45:45 AM
My feelings exactly Gurn! This trait of Haydn is so special and unique, and probably influenced Mozart's approach on some level.

By the way, I'm reading an interesting article on Haydn's string quartets by scholar George Edwards, and I find the quote below to put in words my feelings of why Haydn is so great and meaningful to me:

From The Nonsense of an Ending: Closure in Haydn's String Quartets

Interesting quote. From whence comes it? I would like to read that article. I completely agree with his premise though, that is one of the 'jokes' in the music, one of his ways of confounding your expectations. Sometimes there just isn't a grand resolution on the tonic, convention be damned. :) "Oh, he's just impossible!" :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on December 17, 2011, 09:18:54 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 17, 2011, 09:00:57 AM
Interesting quote. From whence comes it? I would like to read that article. I completely agree with his premise though, that is one of the 'jokes' in the music, one of his ways of confounding your expectations. Sometimes there just isn't a grand resolution on the tonic, convention be damned. :) "Oh, he's just impossible!" :D

8)

I am just starting to read this article and it is great weekend reading :) I got the article from JSTOR, and I'm trying to figure out a way to attach the PDF of the article. Can this be done in the post?

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 17, 2011, 09:21:56 AM

Quote from: Leo K on December 17, 2011, 09:18:54 AM
I am just starting to read this article and it is great weekend reading :) I got the article from JSTOR, and I'm trying to figure out a way to attach the PDF of the article. Can this be done in the post?

:)

Depends how big it is. Anything under 500k works. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on December 17, 2011, 09:29:36 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 17, 2011, 09:21:56 AM
Depends how big it is. Anything under 500k works. :)

8)

Alas, it is a bigger file I guess, but perhaps I can use Google docs and provide a link sometime this weekend! The browser I'm using now doesn't support Google docs.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on December 17, 2011, 09:53:51 AM

Quote from: Leo K on December 17, 2011, 09:29:36 AM
Alas, it is a bigger file I guess

Perhaps; but you should also be a subscriber to be able to attach files to your posts.

Quote...but perhaps I can use Google docs and provide a link sometime this weekend! The browser I'm using now doesn't support Google docs.

Why, unless you're unfortunately stranded in IE6 or something? ???

Alternatively, you can upload it one of the many file-sharing websites on the Web.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on December 17, 2011, 06:19:56 PM

I think the Haydnistos will be happy to know that Gurn's favorite piano trio set is being reissued as a box set:

[asin]B005XP612S[/asin]

Prepare your wallets for late January/early February...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 17, 2011, 06:30:06 PM

Quote from: Geo Dude on December 17, 2011, 06:19:56 PM
I think the Haydnistos will be happy to know that Gurn's favorite piano trio set is being reissued as a box set:

[asin]B005XP612S[/asin]

Prepare your wallets for late January/early February...

Wow, that's a great thing there! Only $60. I spent about $110 for the single boxes. And it took 3 or 4 years to get them all too. Figure the AMP will have it for around $45 within a couple of weeks, and it'll be an offer you can't refuse! :) Thanks, Geo!

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/51f92Bc7PevL.jpg) London Haydn Quartet - Hob 03_19 Quartet in C for Strings Op 9 #1 2nd mvmt - Menuetto - Trio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on December 18, 2011, 06:34:13 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on December 17, 2011, 06:19:56 PM
I think the Haydnistos will be happy to know that Gurn's favorite piano trio set is being reissued as a box set:

[asin]B005XP612S[/asin]

Prepare your wallets for late January/early February...

Very nice! I haven't heard these performances, and although I have been content with my Van Swieten Trio set, this looks very tempting!

Today, I am starting with the Mourning and Mercury symphonies (Dennis Russell Davies set), still exploring the 'Strurm und Drang' period :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 18, 2011, 06:48:34 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on December 17, 2011, 06:19:56 PM
I think the Haydnistos will be happy to know that Gurn's favorite piano trio set is being reissued as a box set:

Prepare your wallets for late January/early February...

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 17, 2011, 06:30:06 PMFigure the AMP will have it for around $45 within a couple of weeks, and it'll be an offer you can't refuse! :)

For those who can't wait (or are living in Europe) it's already in stock at JPC (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/Joseph-Haydn-1732-1809-S%E4mtliche-Klaviertrios/hnum/3680097) for €29.99 ($39). Although I'm more than happy with the Haydn Trio Eisenstadt (much prefer their sound to the popular, on this forum, Van Swieten), I'm very tempted by this new release. For anyone collecting the discs individually, JPC has them priced at €2.99 now.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 18, 2011, 06:59:43 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 18, 2011, 06:48:34 AM
For those who can't wait (or are living in Europe) it's already in stock at JPC (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/Joseph-Haydn-1732-1809-S%E4mtliche-Klaviertrios/hnum/3680097) for €29.99 ($39). Although I'm more than happy with the Haydn Trio Eisenstadt (much prefer their sound to the popular, on this forum, Van Swieten), I'm very tempted by this new release. For anyone collecting the discs individually, JPC has them priced at €2.99 now.

Sarge

Thanks for that info, Sarge. I collected those as they were released and average price at the time was $13/disk (and yes, the 2 disk box (vol 8 ) cost twice as much!). As for the HT Eisenstadt, if I was going for modern instruments, I would prefer them too. The recorded sound has improved over the venerable BAT edition, and they also play at more HIP tempos and with a better blend of piano with strings. For our MI fans here, they are the right choice, IMO. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/RicercarIIcover.jpg) Ricercar Consort - Hob 10_03 Octet in a for Baryton, Winds & Strings 2nd mvmt - Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 18, 2011, 09:01:15 AM

Part 24

1775
This was a sort of turning point year for Haydn. The Prince was on a determined path to the opera house. He really stopped caring about anything else musically.

It was to be the final year in which any great number of instrumental compositions would be composed for Esterházy. While there would just be a dab for home, the great stream would soon open up to the outside world instead. Even the run baryton works have slowed to a crawl now. Some wonderful Divertimenti a otto voci for baryton, winds and strings, some interesting duo sonatas for baryton and cello, and only a trickle of trios after this to finish off Book 5. There was also a missa brevis (The 'Little' Organ Solo Mass) and of course, the opera.

There was a visit by Archduke Ferdinand (Habsburg) of Milan and his court. L'incontro improvviso (The unexpected encounter) was first given on 29 August 1775 in their honor. Yet another of the many famous and powerful people that Haydn met simply by staying home. :)

The music of 1775;

Hob 01a_06 L'Incontro Improviso: Sinfonia in D
Manfred Huss / Haydn Sinfonietta Wien
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnOverturescover.jpg)

Hob 01_066 Symphony in Bb
Hob 01_067 Symphony in F
Hob 01_068 Symphony in Bb
Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood
Hob 01_069 Symphony in C
Concentus Musicus Wien / Harnoncourt
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HogwoodVol09Cover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHarnoncourt305364cover.jpg) or (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHarnoncourtSymphoniescover.jpg)

Hob 10_01 Octet in D for Baryton, 2 Horns, 2 Violins, Cello & Basso
Hob 10_02 Octet in D for Baryton, 2 Horns, 2 Violins, Cello & Basso
Hob 10_03 Octet in a for Baryton, 2 Horns, 2 Violins, Cello & Basso
Hob 10_04 Octet in G for Baryton, 2 Horns, 2 Violins, Cello & Basso
Hob 10_05 Octet in G for Baryton, 2 Horns, 2 Violins, Cello & Basso
Hob 10_06 Octet in A for Baryton, 2 Horns, 2 Violins, Cello & Basso
Hob 10_12 Octet in G for Baryton, 2 Horns, 2 Violins, Cello & Basso
Ricercar Consort
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/RicercarIcover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/RicercarIIcover.jpg)

Hob 11_112 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 5
Hob 11_113 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 5
Hob 11_114 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 5
Hob 11_115 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 5
Hob 11_116 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 5
Hob 11_117 Trio in F for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 5
Hob 11_118 Trio in F for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 5
Hob 11_119 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 5
Esterhazy Ensemble

Hob 12_07 Sonata in D for Baryton & Cello
Hob 12_08 Sonata in C for Baryton & Cello
Hob 12_09 Sonata in G for Baryton & Cello
Hob 12_10 Sonata in A for Baryton & Cello
Hob 12_11 Sonata in D for Baryton & Cello
Hob 12_12 Sonata in G for Baryton & Cello
Esterhazy Ensemble
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Completebarytontrioscover.jpg)

Hob 16_43 Sonata #35 in Ab for Keyboard
Malcolm Bilson
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardBilsonSchantzcover.jpg)

Hob 22_07 Missa Brevis "Kleine Orgelmesse"
Tafelmusik / Bruno Weil
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnWeilMassesCompletecover-1.jpg)

Hob 28_06 Opera L'incontro improvviso Chamber
Orchestra of Lausanne / Dorati Zoghby / Ahnsjo / Marshall / Jones
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnDoratiOperascover2.jpg)

This was actually a good year for symphonies, in the main they were not recycled stage music, and some of them (Hob 68 is a fine example) are filled with unsung beauties. 68 is a chamber symphony in Bb. The trio of the minuet and the rondo finale are both particularly interesting, looking back on previous times (serenade-like) and looking forward to things that would be prominent later, like the rhythms of the 'Clock' symphony, and the emphasis on upbeats which showed up in the Op 64 quartets among others. Oddly, and yet a perfect example of how naming a work carries it forward beyond its merits, the Hob 69 symphony, called "Laudon', is one of his weakest symphonies with little to recommend it. Yet of these works of 1775, it is the least interesting and attractive. Go figure. In point of fact, the recording I am showing you here, which is fortunately a very fine one, is the only PI recording available of these 3 symphonies. Harnoncourt covers the 69 as well as Hogwood. Otherwise, a slim year for symphony recordings! :-\

Not so for Baryton Octet though. There are at least 3 generally available recordings. If you have the Big Box, or the Complete Baryton box from Brilliant, then you have the Esterhazy Ensemble recordings. Those would probably be enough for any sane man, but I never let that stop me. :D This box on BIS;
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnEsterhazyNaplescover.jpg)

has the Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss giving an excellent performance also, and finally the Ricercar Consort disks pictured, which were later released in a 2 disk set, do a splendid job too. I used their set because they were my first, and you know, you never get over your first time... :D

The Ab sonata has been relocated to 1775 from the mid-1780's. This version by Bilson, played on a Schanz fortepiano which was Haydn's choice for his personal piano, is particularly fine, although so are several other available ones, one of which you probably have right now. Give it a listen, it's a nice work. That disk, on Claves, is a nice little plum if you are just looking for a single disk with a nice variety on it. Bilson is one of my favorite players. :)

I leave the door open here for some of our mass specialists to discuss this missa brevis, the Little Organ Solo Mass. This version by Tafelmusik/Weil is very fine. I am thinking now that it might not be easy to find, however, since outside of the Benelux countries this Complete Mass box is not generally available (at least it wasn't. Be nice if they fixed that). The Naxos version with the Rebel Baroque Orchestra is very nice too, and will more than suffice in the breach.

Which brings us finally to this year's Italian Opera, L'incontro improvviso (The unexpected encounter). It is a dramma giocoso per musica with a libretto by Carl Friberth. It is necessary to say that Friberth isn't Goldoni, although if you can follow the poetry in a libretto then you don't need me to tell you that! :) Haydn's music is brilliant, as always, but he must have had to work really hard to make this poet sound as good as he does. The arias are excellent though. Anyway, I am using the Dorati version on Philips, as I will for many of the operas. They are very good quality and even the modern instruments aren't a turn-off for me. The Lausanne Chamber Orchestra can really play, and the singers are among the best of the time (1970's). Those 2 boxes, or else the big 20 disk box set, are definitely worth the investment.

OK, we are getting ready to move forward into what can be viewed by some as a bit of a dry spell for our man. Of course, that doesn't take into account all of his work on other people's operas. Staging operas at the rate of 2 a week doesn't leave a lot of free time for composition, even for a genius.

As always, I am delighted to discuss any aspect of this essay, or any of the others in this series. Your feedback helps me to get better (and forces me to do more research, which can only be a good thing!) and that will make this more useful for you.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on December 18, 2011, 11:15:51 AM

Thanks again Gurn! The operas done at Esterhazy are fascinating. These in-house productions, suggesting a limited royal audience, including various royal visitors ("If I want to hear good opera," the Empress Maria Theresa remarked, "I must go to Eszterháza"), are beautiful and moving productions that lay hidden in the Esterhazy archives for too many years. Hidden treasures all!

I read in the New York Times (from Jamie James, 1993):

"ONE OF THE MAJOR musicological events of the 1970's was the rediscovery of Haydn's operas. The critic H. C. Robbins Landon reconstructed some scores that had been thought to be lost; several were successfully staged at the Holland Festival, including a memorable "Fedelta Premiata" directed by Jean-Pierre Ponnelle, and Antal Dorati recorded eight of the operas for Philips to great acclaim (now reissued, 432 413/38; 20 CD's). And that, it seems, was the end of the great Haydn opera revival.

It is astonishing that none of these operas has found its way into the fringes of the repertory, for they contain some of the loveliest vocal writing of the 18th century, and the orchestrations are continually fresh and inventive. Haydn, who is now best known as a composer of vocal music for his Masses and the great, late oratorios, had a high regard for the operas he composed as Kapellmeister at Eszterhaza castle. In a 1781 letter to his publisher, Haydn said of "La Fedelta Premiata": "I assure you that no such work has been heard in Paris up to now, nor perhaps in Vienna either. It is my misfortune that I live in the country."

I'm listening to L'Incontro Improvviso after reading the above, and find this a charming opera!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 18, 2011, 11:40:57 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 18, 2011, 09:01:15 AM
The Lausanne Chamber Orchestra can really play, and the singers are among the best of the time (1970's)...or else the big 20 disk box set, are definitely worth the investment.

Sold. I hit the buy button at JPC (€59.99 for the box). This is turning out to be an expensive weekend ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 18, 2011, 11:47:07 AM

Quote from: Leo K on December 18, 2011, 11:15:51 AM
Thanks again Gurn! The operas done at Esterhazy are fascinating. These in-house productions, suggesting a limited royal audience, including various royal visitors ("If I want to hear good opera," the Empress Maria Theresa remarked, "I must go to Eszterháza"), are beautiful and moving productions that lay hidden in the Esterhazy archives for too many years. Hidden treasures all!

I read in the New York Times (from Jamie James, 1993):

"ONE OF THE MAJOR musicological events of the 1970's was the rediscovery of Haydn's operas. The critic H. C. Robbins Landon reconstructed some scores that had been thought to be lost; several were successfully staged at the Holland Festival, including a memorable "Fedelta Premiata" directed by Jean-Pierre Ponnelle, and Antal Dorati recorded eight of the operas for Philips to great acclaim (now reissued, 432 413/38; 20 CD's). And that, it seems, was the end of the great Haydn opera revival.

It is astonishing that none of these operas has found its way into the fringes of the repertory, for they contain some of the loveliest vocal writing of the 18th century, and the orchestrations are continually fresh and inventive. Haydn, who is now best known as a composer of vocal music for his Masses and the great, late oratorios, had a high regard for the operas he composed as Kapellmeister at Eszterhaza castle. In a 1781 letter to his publisher, Haydn said of "La Fedelta Premiata": "I assure you that no such work has been heard in Paris up to now, nor perhaps in Vienna either. It is my misfortune that I live in the country."

I'm listening to L'Incontro Improvviso after reading the above, and find this a charming opera!

Thanks for the input, Leo. I have to agree with that writer, rescuing these operas was one of the biggest of Landon's many accomplishments. And I'll be honest here, I'm not really the biggest opera fan in the world, and yet it takes no effort to hear that these are really good! One side note about the operas, it isn't just recordings and live performances that are thin on the ground, but I can't find a single English language book about them, nor even the librettos! With Mozart, I was able to sit and become totally familiar with the works before I ever heard one. With Haydn, exactly the opposite. I did get the synopses from David Wyn Jones' book but that's the lot! :-\

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnDoratiOperascover2.jpg) Chamber Orchestra of Lausanne; Dorati Zoghby; Ahnsjo; Marshall; Jones - Hob 28_06 Opera L'incontro improvviso pt 30 Act II - Aria (Or vicina a te)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 18, 2011, 11:50:44 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 18, 2011, 11:40:57 AM
Sold. I hit the buy button at JPC (€59.99 for the box). This is turning out to be an expensive weekend ;D

Sarge

That seems like a good box set deal, Sarge. I already had 1 of the 10 disk boxes when that 20 disker came out, so I just bought the other one instead of the big one. No advantage accrues either way, since the only way to get notes (and probably a libretto) is to get the 8 individual operas from the first release, and they are rare and very expensive now. I understand that there are books in German that discuss the operas fully and even provide librettos. IIRC, that's not a problem for you. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 18, 2011, 11:52:51 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 18, 2011, 11:40:57 AM
Sold. I hit the buy button at JPC (€59.99 for the box). This is turning out to be an expensive weekend ;D

Oh, this wicked, wicked Haus!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 18, 2011, 11:57:55 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 18, 2011, 11:40:57 AM
Sold. I hit the buy button at JPC (€59.99 for the box). This is turning out to be an expensive weekend ;D

Sarge

Wow. It is $51 at Amazon (US) - I hadn't realized they had gotten that cheap. Talk about temptation!!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 18, 2011, 12:01:55 PM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 18, 2011, 11:57:55 AM
Wow. It is $51 at Amazon (US) - I hadn't realized they had gotten that cheap. Talk about temptation!!!

I think it's safe to assume Haydn operas are some of the least popular items on the planet. Makes absolutely no sense but certainly profits us Haydnistas 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 18, 2011, 12:08:55 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 18, 2011, 11:52:51 AM
Oh, this wicked, wicked Haus!

>:D (it is rather bad, isn't it?) 0:)

Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 18, 2011, 11:57:55 AM
Wow. It is $51 at Amazon (US) - I hadn't realized they had gotten that cheap. Talk about temptation!!!

It was introduced at $60 (actual, not MSRP) when it came out (2009), then shot up to the $80's for a while, and now has plummeted. Wait a bit longer until there aren't any left and it will be $500... :-\

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 18, 2011, 12:01:55 PM
I think it's safe to assume Haydn operas are some of the least popular items on the planet. Makes absolutely no sense but certainly profits us Haydnistas 8)

Sarge

Strange but true. Not being an Italian speaker, and just being in it for the music, really, I can say that it is a big win for me. The music and singing are specially good. So what if the poetry sucks? I can't understand it anyway. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on December 18, 2011, 12:12:06 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 18, 2011, 11:50:44 AM
I understand that there are books in German that discuss the operas fully and even provide librettos. IIRC, that's not a problem for you. :D

8)

Drool!

I have a couple of these Dorati Haydn operas on LP, so I have only two librettos/notes!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 18, 2011, 12:14:11 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 18, 2011, 12:08:55 PM
It was introduced at $60 (actual, not MSRP) when it came out (2009), then shot up to the $80's for a while, and now has plummeted. Wait a bit longer until there aren't any left and it will be $500... :-\

I think I saw it higher than that, but I could be mixing up the price of the 2 smaller boxes added together. And what do you mean, wait?!?! :o Seriously, there are 14 left at Amazon and 7 at Importcds + 8 at blowitoutahere, so I think one has time to make a purchase....

tick tock

tick tock

tick tock

ok, times up!! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 18, 2011, 12:18:56 PM

Quote from: Leo K on December 18, 2011, 12:12:06 PM
Drool!

I have a couple of these Dorati Haydn operas on LP, so I have only two librettos/notes!

Well, I have seen titles listed in bibliographies, you know? Of course, my rudimentary German is scarcely more effective than my rudimentary Italian, French or English... :-\

:D

Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 18, 2011, 12:14:11 PM
I think I saw it higher than that, but I could be mixing up the price of the 2 smaller boxes added together. And what do you mean, wait?!?! :o Seriously, there are 14 left at Amazon and 7 at Importcds + 8 at blowitoutahere, so I think one has time to make a purchase....

tick tock

tick tock

tick tock

ok, times up!! :)

It's just hard to know when they get low like that and it will be the last time. Sometimes they just stock right back up again, and then other times Woody's Books is suddenly making his investment in 10 boxes when they came out pay off for him with just 1 sale. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on December 18, 2011, 12:19:03 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 18, 2011, 12:08:55 PM
>:D (it is rather bad, isn't it?) 0:)

It was introduced at $60 (actual, not MSRP) when it came out (2009), then shot up to the $80's for a while, and now has plummeted. Wait a bit longer until there aren't any left and it will be $500... :-\

Strange but true. Not being an Italian speaker, and just being in it for the music, really, I can say that it is a big win for me. The music and singing are specially good. So what if the poetry sucks? I can't understand it anyway. :)

8)

Yeah, all truth to be told, I haven't missed the librettos, as I just push play and start listening without even knowing the story. I let my imagination soar as I listen, and enjoy the music as it unfolds.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 18, 2011, 12:21:00 PM

Quote from: Leo K on December 18, 2011, 12:19:03 PM
Yeah, all truth to be told, I haven't missed the librettos, as I just push play and start listening without evening knowing the story. I let my imagination soar as I listen, and enjoy the music as it unfolds.

8)

Well, I like the synopses that you usually get, they suffice to set one on the right imaginary pathway..... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on December 18, 2011, 12:25:03 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 18, 2011, 12:21:00 PM
Well, I like the synopses that you usually get, they suffice to set one on the right imaginary pathway..... :)

8)

Exactly ;D I keep my trusty Haydn book at hand in case I want to read a little about the history of the opera in question, or the snopsis:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51OtO2AEMKL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg)
(Now in a newer edition than this copy)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 18, 2011, 12:28:45 PM

Quote from: Leo K on December 18, 2011, 12:25:03 PM
Exactly ;D I keep my trusty Haydn book at hand in case I want to read a little about the history of the opera in question, or the snopsis:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51OtO2AEMKL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg)
(Now in a newer edition than this copy)

8)

Me too (in the newer edition, not that old thing :D ). It certainly helps. But I have 4 big books just on Mozart's operas and nothing else. And that was easy to do. There is no parity in the league. >:(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 18, 2011, 12:47:35 PM

Quote from: Leo K on December 18, 2011, 12:12:06 PM
I have a couple of these Dorati Haydn operas on LP, so I have only two librettos/notes!

I have one Dorati LP box, (La Fedelta Premiata), and one Musical Heritage Society box (L'Infedelta Delusa, Almeida conducting the...wait for it...Haydn Foundation Orchestra Rome :o ;D ) That was all I could afford in the 70s when Dorati's cycle was generally available.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on December 18, 2011, 01:57:32 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 18, 2011, 06:48:34 AM
For those who can't wait (or are living in Europe) it's already in stock at JPC (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/Joseph-Haydn-1732-1809-S%E4mtliche-Klaviertrios/hnum/3680097) for €29.99 ($39). Although I'm more than happy with the Haydn Trio Eisenstadt (much prefer their sound to the popular, on this forum, Van Swieten), I'm very tempted by this new release. For anyone collecting the discs individually, JPC has them priced at €2.99 now.

Sarge

I know I am missing a couple of the individual discs, so I will take look. Thanks.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 18, 2011, 03:05:32 PM

Good evening Gurn & All - for Gurn, thanks again for the recent installments of your Haydn saga - enjoying as usual! Congrats on such a unique approach and thorough review of Papa's output!

Just received the discs below of the Op. 20 SQs w/ the London Haydn Quartet - for those not familiar w/ this group, this is the 3rd double-set of releases of Haydn's earlier SQs using classical bows & gut strings - I really enjoy this group and their latest release after a couple of listens is just as superb as the earlier ones - :)

About to pull the string on ordering those Overtures that Gurn keeps showing - should I? Will do - Dave :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-GD3Nwz4/0/O/HaydnOp20LHSQ.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 18, 2011, 04:04:36 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on December 18, 2011, 03:05:32 PM
Good evening Gurn & All - for Gurn, thanks again for the recent installments of your Haydn saga - enjoying as usual! Congrats on such a unique approach and thorough review of Papa's output!

Just received the discs below of the Op. 20 SQs w/ the London Haydn Quartet - for those not familiar w/ this group, this is the 3rd double-set of releases of Haydn's earlier SQs using classical bows & gut strings - I really enjoy this group and their latest release after a couple of listens is just as superb as the earlier ones - :)

About to pull the string on ordering those Overtures that Gurn keeps showing - should I? Will do - Dave :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-GD3Nwz4/0/O/HaydnOp20LHSQ.jpg)

Hey, Dave,
Thanks, glad you like. You guys have me on the right path, finally. :)

Well, I had the LHQ Op 9 as a download, and decided the other day to get all 3 sets. No harm will come from having yet another Op 20, and the Festetics 9 & 17 are my only PI ones anyway, so nice to have some reinforcement. They should be here next week, and I am looking forward to hearing what they are doing with Op 20. Particularly, I want to read their liner notes, which is something that downloads don't cover very well, since I understand that they are very keen on displaying the rhetorical aspects of these works, and I will listen for some possible differences there. Probably won't hear anything, but that's probably my fault... :-\

Good on you about the overtures. I can't remember you being an opera guy, so this might be your only way to hear some of that more specialized music. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HogwoodVol09Cover.jpg) Academy of Ancient Music; Hogwood - Hob 01_066 Symphony in Bb 1st mvmt - Allegro con brio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on December 18, 2011, 10:36:53 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 18, 2011, 06:48:34 AM
For those who can't wait (or are living in Europe) it's already in stock at JPC (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/Joseph-Haydn-1732-1809-S%E4mtliche-Klaviertrios/hnum/3680097) for €29.99 ($39). Although I'm more than happy with the Haydn Trio Eisenstadt (much prefer their sound to the popular, on this forum, Van Swieten), I'm very tempted by this new release. For anyone collecting the discs individually, JPC has them priced at €2.99 now.

Sarge

I saw the single discs... started putting them into my basket... and then happened across the box which is cheaper, still, per disc. Grabbed it. Because everyone needs 1, 2, 3, 4 complete sets of Haydn's Piano Trios. :-) Beaux Arts, Eisenstadt, van Swieten, and now 1789 or whatever they're called. I'm not that much a fan of the Eisenstadt (a little disappointed after their lovely work on the Scottish Songs, although they turn in fine performances) and like the van Swieten's only to an extend. The Beaux Arts, a few all-too-sight-read Trios aside, still are awfully gorgeous, though. And a few, cherry-pickin' individual discs of the Trios stand out... I'm separated from the "1784" recordings (spending a month of the darkest season in butter-free Oslo, idiot that I am) and, although I could listen to them through the Naxos Music Library, will probably wait until I am back.

Btw.: Anyone with favorite Spring-themed works?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 18, 2011, 10:39:29 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on December 18, 2011, 03:05:32 PM
About to pull the string on ordering those Overtures that Gurn keeps showing - should I? Will do - Dave :D

If you are asking about their quality, I think you should have no fears on that account. They are excellent. They are period perfomances if that matters. The group plays very crisply, in unison and in tune. There is a lightness and deftness of touch that I like. I'm very enthusiastic about these. You can hear the difference in sound between these and say the overtures from the actual operas on the Dorati disc. But for all that, I think they make interesting contrasts, and both have something to add to our enjoyment. The Huss has some tremendously exciting interpretations of some of the pieces. However, if you aren't a lover of opera, these (Huss) are the ones to get. They are a good introduction - if you like them, there are a number of other discs by the same group.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on December 18, 2011, 11:13:40 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 18, 2011, 11:50:44 AM
That seems like a good box set deal, Sarge. I already had 1 of the 10 disk boxes when that 20 disker came out, so I just bought the other one instead of the big one. No advantage accrues either way, since the only way to get notes (and probably a libretto) is to get the 8 individual operas from the first release, and they are rare and very expensive now. I understand that there are books in German that discuss the operas fully and even provide librettos. IIRC, that's not a problem for you. :D

8)

I have never done anything like that so I don't know how to do it for achieve best results, but I have an old edition of the EOC with booklets. Should I make scans of them for you?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 19, 2011, 04:24:34 AM

Quote from: mszczuj on December 18, 2011, 11:13:40 PM
I have never done anything like that so I don't know how to do it for achieve best results, but I have an old edition of the EOC with booklets. Should I make scans of them for you?

You would be a Prince among Princes if you made that happen. :)

If they were in English, of course. I am still working on mastering it... ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 19, 2011, 11:42:47 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on December 18, 2011, 10:36:53 PMI'm separated from the "1784" recordings (spending a month of the darkest season in butter-free Oslo, idiot that I am)

Ah, the crazy things we men do for love...

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 19, 2011, 11:43:28 AM

The Flight from Butter . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 20, 2011, 04:44:43 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 20, 2011, 04:32:25 AM
I warmly appreciate your extensive researches, generally, and your year-by-year thumbnail chronology, in particular, O Gurn. The following thought certainly gives me pause:

Dangerous visions . . . .

Taking their cue from Harry's suppliers, Amazon have put a special team in place just to handle my Marketplace Haydn orders.... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on December 20, 2011, 07:20:31 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 20, 2011, 04:44:43 AM
Taking their cue from Harry's suppliers, Amazon have put a special team in place just to handle my Marketplace Haydn orders.... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 20, 2011, 07:28:47 AM

Hoy, Bill!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 21, 2011, 05:10:51 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 20, 2011, 04:13:23 PM
I really make an effort to only rec stuff you can actually buy. One of my pet peeves over the years stems from the folks here who always rec stuff that you can only get from 1 South Sea island in leap year, and for just $1000/disk. What good does that do me? :)

Testify, brother!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 21, 2011, 06:16:59 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 21, 2011, 05:10:51 AM
Testify, brother!

Just sayin'. I can't be the only who gets irked... >:( But seriously, I have a bunch of Haydn disks that I never rec just for that reason. What's the point? Of course, if you enjoy the hunt, and don't get depressed after the kill.... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 21, 2011, 06:28:32 AM

Separately . . . .

Sure, I own many discs more of Haydn than of Brian; but I feel Sarge's pain . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on December 21, 2011, 07:56:30 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 21, 2011, 06:16:59 AM
Just sayin'. I can't be the only who gets irked... >:( But seriously, I have a bunch of Haydn disks that I never rec just for that reason. What's the point? Of course, if you enjoy the hunt, and don't get depressed after the kill.... :D

8)

For me, I appreciate at least knowing about excellent recordings even if they are OOP or very hard to find. I try to keep this kind of information in the back of my brain and occasionally look to see if the situation has improved for acquiring one of them.

But I understand your point.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on December 21, 2011, 08:00:33 AM

Reposted from the Purchases Today thread because I'm sure the Haydnistos in this thread will appreciate the recordings. And the mind control device. :D

Quote from: Geo DudeMy orders lately have been pretty heavy on Haydn as a result of the Gurnatron5500's mind control device (patent pending), but I couldn't resist the allure of a $13 + shipping period Don Giovanni. As a result, we have the last order of the year:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 21, 2011, 09:50:46 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on December 21, 2011, 08:00:33 AM
Reposted from the Purchases Today thread because I'm sure the Haydnistos in this thread will appreciate the recordings. And the mind control device. :D

Man, that's a nice bunch of disks there, Geo! Op 50 is by far my favorite SQ op, and (like with all the other cycles it seems) the Festetics one is about the hardest to find. This will catch you up right from the first pulsing throb of the cello!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 21, 2011, 09:55:35 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on December 21, 2011, 07:55:43 AM
Like I told Sarge, I had no listenable set of any Haydn symphonies up until now, so I decided to bite the bullet and spend the $64 on that set [Kuijken, London Symphonies]. The good news is, now that I've purchased it, the budget release will surely be expedited! ;D

Thanks for taking one for the team!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on December 21, 2011, 10:16:40 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 21, 2011, 09:50:46 AM
Man, that's a nice bunch of disks there, Geo!

I certainly hope so! :)

QuoteOp 50 is by far my favorite SQ op, and (like with all the other cycles it seems) the Festetics one is about the hardest to find.

It is difficult to find, but there's a trick I use (other than searching BRO) to find rare stuff for low prices: Do an artist search and you'll often find that there are two or three different listings for the same item and some poor sellers list their stuff on the version hidden two or three pages deep in Amazon's listings.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on December 22, 2011, 02:19:59 AM

Quote from: Florestan on December 21, 2011, 11:18:08 PM
but if you are a boring person with absolutely no musical asthetic...

Comedy gold! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 22, 2011, 03:54:33 AM

For entertainment purposes only . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 22, 2011, 05:09:05 AM

Oh, that should tie up a certain hammer-wielder in knots! (And have us in stitches.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on December 22, 2011, 05:28:21 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 22, 2011, 04:50:05 AM
You ought to hear my '5 Minutes on Mahler' bit. :D

8)

Five minutes? I believe you mean five hours! :D

At least, that's how long it feels when trying to sit through one of the symphonies...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2011, 06:12:01 AM

Part 25

1776

QuoteFrom 1776 the daily programme included opera and theatre performances: between 1780 and 1790 Haydn directed over 1000 opera performances. Out of a total of 78 performed operas until 1784, Haydn wrote 15. The extensive Opera season occupied Haydn fully and reduced his creativity in nearly all other genres.
Haydn Festival Eisenstadt Website

Hard to phrase that more creatively or persuasively. Beyond scanning the list of works. The natural conclusion drawn from that over the years is that 'Haydn hit a creative dry spell'. But as we discussed a couple of years ago, the job of full time opera impresario didn't leave a whole lot of room for composition outside of it.

We are down to the next-last installment of baryton works. In another year they will disappear as though never having existed at all. Of course, pirated adaptations for other instruments were dominating the home sheet music market all over Europe at the time, and would continue to appear regularly for the next 150 years as 'string trios'. But the baryton itself would become virtually extinct outside of museums in just a few short years.

I short reminder that the marionette operas here are not Italian operas at all, they are mainly German singspieln so in Die Feuersbrunst of this year, we meet a character who was beloved of Viennese audiences for decades, and conversely despised by the ruling class whom he pilloried with satire. That would be Hanswurst. You should Google up or Wiki up a little history of this character. He epitomizes the Viennese sense of humor. It is truly a pity that of the <>10 marionette operas/singspiels that Haydn wrote, only the earlier discussed Philemon & Baucis and this one survived the ravages of the 1779 tragedy.

The music of 1776;

Hob 01_061 Symphony in D
Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HogwoodVol09Cover.jpg)

Hob 11_119 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 5
Hob 11_120 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 5
Hob 11_121 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 5
Hob 11_122 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 5
Esterhazy Ensemble
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Completebarytontrioscover.jpg)

Hob 29b_A Comic opera "Die Feuersbrunst"
Capella Augustina \ A. Spering Katzameier - Karasiak - Gericke – Bothmer
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnDieFeuersbrunstcover.jpg)

Whoa! One symphony in 1776? Well, maybe, maybe not. It is the only manuscript with that date that survived the 1779 fire, so whatever the actual count, one is what we have. It doesn't have the depth of the works of the early 1770's, but provides a high level of entertainment anyway. The second movement has been described as an evocation of the pastoral scene of an Italian opera, and indeed that argument could be made rather easily if one is into word picture to go with the music. The rondo finale is kind of interesting, the a section is in the major mode throughout, while the b and c are in the minor. He used this effect again (and better) in some of the London symphonies, but discovered its interest here in Esterháza. Hogwood's account is the only PI one that I have ever found, the cherry pickers all passed this one by. Their loss. :)

A few more baryton trios, almost down to the end now. No diminishment of creativity though, these works are entertaining from first to last.

And finally, a singspiel. The Burning House is actually an interesting story, likely easily related to by the man whose houses in Eisenstadt had burned down twice already. Apparently fire was a fact of life in those days. In any case, this is quite a nice little production. The Capella Augustina / Spering are as good as they are elsewhere, which is to say very good indeed. Singspiel with human characters was a relatively new phenomenon at this time, at least according to a letter from Mozart to his father from Munich where he saw one (music by George Benda, IIRC) and enthusiastically reported home. That planted seed led to The Abduction from the Seraglio in 1781-2. But in marionette opera, this was apparently nothing new, since there are no raised eyebrows or comments made anywhere about this being something new and unique (I looked!). Of course, marionette theater was huge in Italy and probably Europe in general for a long time by then, so extending that to opera, especially German opera, seems like a natural thing if your puppeteers are virtuoso.

As always, I invite discussion, feedback, questions, answers, expansion etc.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2011, 06:15:19 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on December 22, 2011, 05:28:21 AM
Five minutes? I believe you mean five hours! :D

At least, that's how long it feels when trying to sit through one of the symphonies...

No, no, I wasn't going to do an entire movement, just a phrase or two... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 22, 2011, 07:20:48 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 22, 2011, 06:12:01 AM
. . . The natural conclusion drawn from that over the years is that 'Haydn hit a creative dry spell'. But as we discussed a couple of years ago, the job of full time opera impresario didn't leave a whole lot of room for composition outside of it.

Exactly, a question entirely different to 'a dry spell.'

Quote from: Gurnatron5500We are down to the next-last installment of baryton works.

Don't I remember a Far Side cartoon, 'The Last Day of Baryton Performance'? ; )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2011, 07:24:14 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 22, 2011, 07:20:48 AM
Exactly, a question entirely different to 'a dry spell.'

Don't I remember a Far Side cartoon, 'The Last Day of Baryton Performance'? ; )

I don't, but I'm sure gonna look for it! As a concept, it's a peach. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on December 22, 2011, 07:32:45 AM

I want Haydn to stay put in his pecking order and stay away from the level of "overly known" to the masses. It's always nice to drop Papa's name when a friend inquires of which composer to start with when venturing into classical music. The answer is something like this:

"Well, you cannot go wrong with Mozart or Beethoven, but you may want to given Haydn a try. Heard of 'em?"

And, just for fun, here are the number of available recordings from Arkiv Music of different composers. I only chose the ones with 2,000 or more, but included Vivaldi because he was close. Interesting who is ahead of Haydn considering how prolific he was with composition.:

Mozart (7,249)
Bach (6,914)
Beethoven (5,582)
Schubert (3,855)
Verdi (3,491)
Tchaikovsky (3,333)
Handel (2,945)
Schumann (2,832)
Mendelssohn (2,665)
Debussy (2,393)
Wagner (2,363)
Haydn (2,335)
Puccini (2,246)
Vivaldi (1,971)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jared on December 22, 2011, 07:34:23 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 22, 2011, 04:50:05 AM
I feel it is vitally important for someone trying to put on superior airs to be able to spell and have some grasp of grammar. :) I love Amazon for those sorts of things, it's an open forum. :)

hey Gurn, look what I found going for a peach of a price on ebay a couple of weeks ago...

(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn99/fandango68/Early%20Classical/41PD0CD34ML__SL500_AA300_.jpg)

one the basis of the above erm... research... do you think I ought to return them and ask for my money back?

::)

:P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2011, 07:35:41 AM

Quote from: Jared on December 22, 2011, 07:34:23 AM
hey Gurn, look what I found going for a peach of a price on ebay a couple of weeks ago...

(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn99/fandango68/Early%20Classical/41PD0CD34ML__SL500_AA300_.jpg)

one the basis of the above erm... research... do you think I ought to return them and ask for my money back?

::)

:P

Not just them, Jared, but apparently ALL your Haydn. Well, he is the most boring composer, after all... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jared on December 22, 2011, 07:37:17 AM

Quote from: Bogey on December 22, 2011, 07:32:45 AM
Wagner (2,363)
Haydn (2,335)

the scandal of it all! :o

I tell you.... never trust a Poll... ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2011, 07:39:43 AM

Quote from: Bogey on December 22, 2011, 07:32:45 AM
I want Haydn to stay put in his pecking order and stay away from the level of "overly known" to the masses. It's always nice to drop Papa's name when a friend inquires of which composer to start with when venturing into classical music. The answer is something like this:

"Well, you cannot go wrong with Mozart or Beethoven, but you may want to given Haydn a try. Heard of 'em?"

And, just for fun, here are the number of available recordings from Arkiv Music of different composers. I only chose the ones with 2,000 or more, but included Vivaldi because he was close. Interesting who is ahead of Haydn considering how prolific he was with composition.:

Mozart (7,249)
Bach (6,914)
Beethoven (5,582)
Schubert (3,855)
Verdi (3,491)
Tchaikovsky (3,333)
Handel (2,945)
Schumann (2,832)
Mendelssohn (2,665)
Debussy (2,393)
Wagner (2,363)
Haydn (2,335)
Puccini (2,246)
Vivaldi (1,971)

I'm thinking that this is due to redundancy. If a man has fewer than 100 opus numbered works and yet 3,333 recordings, how does that stack up to someone with over 800 works and 2300 recordings? Hell, I have 2300 Haydn recordings, for that matter.... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jared on December 22, 2011, 07:40:29 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 22, 2011, 07:35:41 AM
Not just them, Jared, but apparently ALL your Haydn. Well, he is the most boring composer, after all... :D

8)

well, I'd defy anyone with a pulse (never mind whether they were into CM or not) to listen to the Hickox boxset of Haydn Masses and come to the conclusion...

... that he was boring... ::)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2011, 07:40:45 AM

Quote from: Jared on December 22, 2011, 07:37:17 AM
the scandal of it all! :o

I tell you.... never trust a Poll... ;D

Wanna hear my 5 minutes with Wagner? ::) :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jared on December 22, 2011, 07:44:33 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 22, 2011, 07:40:45 AM
Wanna hear my 5 minutes with Wagner? ::) :D

8)

I think I'd rather hear your 5 minutes on Wagner than your 5 minutes on Mahler.. being as I love the latter, but simply can't cope with the former...

The older I get, the more ridiculous it all seems.. ???

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on December 22, 2011, 07:49:37 AM

What Haydn needs is a movie about him directed by Spielberg....and starring Daniel Day-Lewis....and throw in Jessica Alba! The heck with accuracy....look what it did for Wolfie! *pounds table really, really, hard*

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2011, 07:50:03 AM

Quote from: Jared on December 22, 2011, 07:44:33 AM
I think I'd rather hear your 5 minutes on Wagner than your 5 minutes on Mahler.. being as I love the latter, but simply can't cope with the former...

The older I get, the more ridiculous it all seems.. ???

I merely bemoan the lack of concision after 1830. It (prolixity) did reach its peak about 60-80 years later though, didn't it? Of all the things that subsequent composers could have taken from Beethoven, somehow they missed out on his almost magical ability to telescope great statements down to a few terse notes. Haydn had it, Mozart too. Maybe that is the nut of Classicism?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 22, 2011, 07:53:40 AM

Well, a pleasant change of pace for me w/ the new arrivals below - a half dozen of the Londons in chamber arrangements by Peter Solomon; instruments include flute, fortepiano, & string quartet w/ the Arco Baleno Ensemble; the fortepiano is from the workshop of Chris Maene (HERE (http://www.chrismaene.be/default.aspx?lang=en&type=home&level1=home)) based on one by Anto Walter, Vienna 1794 - plenty of interesting information and pictures on that site for those interested.

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-gFFhC3T/0/O/HaydnSymphCamber2.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-TBvdxQs/0/O/HaydnSymphCamber1.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2011, 07:54:12 AM

Quote from: Bogey on December 22, 2011, 07:49:37 AM
What Haydn needs is a movie about him directed by Spielberg....and starring Daniel Day-Lewis....and throw in Jessica Alba! The heck with accuracy....look what it did for Wolfie! *pounds table really, really, hard*

Haydn: But I never wore a cape. And those leotards ::) Can't we just keep the girl without dressing me up?

Salomon: But Joe, dammit, your buns are still as hard as steel! London will be all a buzz over the suit. The S on your chest stands for Sonata...

Haydn: Doh!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on December 22, 2011, 07:56:32 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 22, 2011, 07:50:03 AM
I merely bemoan the lack of concision after 1830. It (prolixity) did reach its peak about 60-80 years later though, didn't it? Of all the things that subsequent composers could have taken from Beethoven, somehow they missed out on his almost magical ability to telescope great statements down to a few terse notes. Haydn had it, Mozart too. Maybe that is the nut of Classicism?

8)

What I think is that during the Classical period expressing the "ego" of the artist was not an end in itself, but a means to expressing the music. During the height of the Romantic era, it seems to me that the artist's personality, and stormy emotions, took center stage and the music became a means to expressing that end.

I much prefer the priorities of the Classical period.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2011, 07:56:36 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on December 22, 2011, 07:53:40 AM
Well, a pleasant change of pace for me w/ the new arrivals below - a half dozen of the Londons in chamber arrangements by Peter Solomon; instruments include flute, fortepiano, & string quartet w/ the Arco Baleno Ensemble; the fortepiano is from the workshop of Chris Maene (HERE (http://www.chrismaene.be/default.aspx?lang=en&type=home&level1=home)) based on one by Anto Walter, Vienna 1794 - plenty of interesting information and pictures on that site for those interested.

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-gFFhC3T/0/O/HaydnSymphCamber2.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-TBvdxQs/0/O/HaydnSymphCamber1.jpg)

Nice, Dave. Are those from the Marketplace? I need to wishlist them if so. I've had those arrangements in the back of my mind for a while now, looking for nice versions. These might be the ones. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2011, 07:58:30 AM

Quote from: Arnold on December 22, 2011, 07:56:32 AM
What I think is that during the Classical period expressing the "ego" of the artist was not an end in itself, but a means to expressing the music. During the height of the Romantic era, it seems to me that the artist's personality, and stormy emotions, took center stage and the music became a means to expressing that end.

I much prefer the priorities of the Classical period.

Very much agree with that, Arnold. I was thinking of means while you were thinking of motives. They go together though. I prefer the priorities of Classicism too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on December 22, 2011, 08:07:25 AM

Quote from: Arnold on December 22, 2011, 07:56:32 AM
What I think is that during the Classical period expressing the "ego" of the artist was not an end in itself, but a means to expressing the music. During the height of the Romantic era, it seems to me that the artist's personality, and stormy emotions, took center stage and the music became a means to expressing that end.

I much prefer the priorities of the Classical period.

Simple Arnold....they had better ~~managers~~ promoters! ;D

(http://www.boxingrepublic.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/bob-arum-don-king.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jared on December 22, 2011, 08:09:52 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 22, 2011, 07:58:30 AM
Very much agree with that, Arnold. I was thinking of means while you were thinking of motives. They go together though. I prefer the priorities of Classicism too. :)

8)

I'm afraid I will always continue to sit on the fence over this one... I love Romanticism as much as I do the product of the Enlightenment mind, even though they are polar opposites. I enjoy alternating Renaissance, Baroque, Classical & Romantic, every bit as much as I do Orchestral, Chamber, Instrumental & Choral/ Vocal. I certainly think however that discovering the joys of Haydn are to be worked at, and are not as immediate as many other composers.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on December 22, 2011, 08:11:24 AM

Quote from: Jared on December 22, 2011, 08:09:52 AM
I'm afraid I will always continue to sit on the fence over this one... I love Romanticism as much as I do the product of the Enlightenment mind, even though they are polar opposites. I enjoy alternating Renaissance, Baroque, Classical & Romantic, every bit as much as I do Orchestral, Chamber, Instrumental & Choral/ Vocal. I certainly think however that discovering the joys of Haydn are to be worked at, and are not as immediate as many other composers.

Quote of the day!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2011, 08:15:28 AM

Quote from: Jared on December 22, 2011, 08:09:52 AM
I'm afraid I will always continue to sit on the fence over this one... I love Romanticism as much as I do the product of the Enlightenment mind, even though they are polar opposites. I enjoy alternating Renaissance, Baroque, Classical & Romantic, every bit as much as I do Orchestral, Chamber, Instrumental & Choral/ Vocal. I certainly think however that discovering the joys of Haydn are to be worked at, and are not as immediate as many other composers.

That's totally fair. I went through that same phase for nearly 20 years, I was absolutely delighted to listen to nearly anything (of quality). It is only recently that I have decided to specialize a bit. Somewhere I had to reconcile my passion for music with my equal one for history. That means picking something and settling down for a while. Haydn, the greatest under-appreciated composer remaining, was pretty much a natural for me. Not that I couldn't be a music-whore again some day. :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnDoratiOperascover2.jpg) Chamber Orchestra of Lausanne; Dorati Auger; Mathis; Stade; Terrani; Johnson - Hob 28_07 Opera 'Il Mondo della Luna' pt 48 Act II - (Finale II) Buonafede tondo

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jared on December 22, 2011, 08:26:25 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 22, 2011, 08:15:28 AM
That's totally fair. I went through that same phase for nearly 20 years, I was absolutely delighted to listen to nearly anything (of quality). It is only recently that I have decided to specialize a bit. Somewhere I had to reconcile my passion for music with my equal one for history. That means picking something and settling down for a while. Haydn, the greatest under-appreciated composer remaining, was pretty much a natural for me. Not that I couldn't be a music-whore again some day. :D

We are probably quite similar in this regard... whilst not being a Historian per se, my interest in CM was initially sparked through this aspect. A knowledgeable ex-neighbour, with whom I have shared many a history book, got me into listening to CM, initially through lending me the Requiems of Mozart, LvB & Dvorak along with some info on the stylistic differences and why they were written. Although ironically her first and main love is the Renaissance (Victoria, Gabrieli et al) I have to say that the occasion... 3 1/2 years ago now, had me hooked, because I have long been fascinated with the transition from Classicism to Romanticism.. an even more ideological earthquake than the introduction of Enlightenment thinking on an age pre-occupied with the delightful frivolities of the Rococco...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 22, 2011, 08:26:42 AM

My ears remain pan-epochally voracious. Yet indeed I am enjoying hanging out more frequently here at Da Haus.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 22, 2011, 08:27:27 AM

Quote from: Jared on December 22, 2011, 08:26:25 AM
We are probably quite similar in this regard... whilst not being a Historian per se, my interest in CM was initially sparked through this aspect. A knowledgeable ex-neighbour, with whom I have shared many a history book, got me into listening to CM, initially through lending me the Requiems of Mozart, LvB & Dvorak along with some info on the stylistic differences and why they were written. Although ironically her first and main love is the Renaissance (Victoria, Gabrieli et al) I have to say that the occasion... 3 1/2 years ago now, had me hooked, because I have long been fascinated with the transition from Classicism to Romanticism.. an even more ideological earthquake than the introduction of Enlightenment thinking on an age pre-occupied with the delightful frivolities of the Rococco...

Beethoven wrote a Requiem? . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jared on December 22, 2011, 08:27:32 AM

Quote from: Bogey on December 22, 2011, 08:11:24 AM
Quote of the day!

why, thank you good Sir... believe me, I'm not really capable of many of those... ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jared on December 22, 2011, 08:28:59 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 22, 2011, 08:26:42 AM
My ears remain pan-epochally voracious. Yet indeed I am enjoying hanging out more frequently here at Da Haus.

must be down to the personal qualities of the host, Karl.. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2011, 08:29:42 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 22, 2011, 08:27:27 AM
Beethoven wrote a Requiem? . . .

Nah, Missa Solemnis, no doubt. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jared on December 22, 2011, 08:29:58 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 22, 2011, 08:27:27 AM
Beethoven wrote a Requiem? . . .

OK, OK.... his Missa Solemnis... :-[

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2011, 08:33:52 AM

Quote from: Jared on December 22, 2011, 08:26:25 AM
We are probably quite similar in this regard... whilst not being a Historian per se, my interest in CM was initially sparked through this aspect. A knowledgeable ex-neighbour, with whom I have shared many a history book, got me into listening to CM, initially through lending me the Requiems of Mozart, LvB & Dvorak along with some info on the stylistic differences and why they were written. Although ironically her first and main love is the Renaissance (Victoria, Gabrieli et al) I have to say that the occasion... 3 1/2 years ago now, had me hooked, because I have long been fascinated with the transition from Classicism to Romanticism.. an even more ideological earthquake than the introduction of Enlightenment thinking on an age pre-occupied with the delightful frivolities of the Rococco...

Despite knowing myself rather well, still, when I got interested enough to listen to classical music, I told my wife not to worry, I wouldn't end up with hundreds of books on the subject. One didn't need to know anything about the history to enjoy the music. So now, hundreds of books later, my prescient wife has got to where she merely chuckles when a parcel hits the porch. Still, it would have been the first thing I was ever interested in that I didn't do the history of too. How and why would that happen? :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Completebarytontrioscover.jpg)
Esterhazy Ensemble - Hob 11_123 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 5 1st mvmt - Adagio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2011, 08:35:51 AM

Well, that got 4 pages back in a real hurry! Try it again....
Part 25

1776

QuoteFrom 1776 the daily programme included opera and theatre performances: between 1780 and 1790 Haydn directed over 1000 opera performances. Out of a total of 78 performed operas until 1784, Haydn wrote 15. The extensive Opera season occupied Haydn fully and reduced his creativity in nearly all other genres.
Haydn Festival Eisenstadt Website

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on December 22, 2011, 08:39:38 AM

Quote from: Jared on December 22, 2011, 08:09:52 AM
I'm afraid I will always continue to sit on the fence over this one... I love Romanticism as much as I do the product of the Enlightenment mind, even though they are polar opposites. I enjoy alternating Renaissance, Baroque, Classical & Romantic, every bit as much as I do Orchestral, Chamber, Instrumental & Choral/ Vocal. I certainly think however that discovering the joys of Haydn are to be worked at, and are not as immediate as many other composers.

Sometimes I have to admit total bafflement and recognise that I have no understanding of my tastes at all. Yesterday I listened to Act 3 of Valkyrie (Goodall/ENO/Hunter/Norman Bailey), and by the end of it I couldn't understand why I ever bothered listening to anything else. But then I've felt the same after listening to Ariodante, La Boheme, several Mozart piano concertos, Immerseel's Beethoven 5, Haydn's 1st cello concerto, and Elgar's 1st symphony. I am, in short, a puzzle to myself.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 22, 2011, 08:46:36 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 22, 2011, 08:29:42 AM
Nah, Missa Solemnis, no doubt. :)

8)

Quote from: Jared on December 22, 2011, 08:29:58 AM
OK, OK.... his Missa Solemnis... :-[

Well, but the Berlioz Grande Messe des morts might have been meant . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on December 22, 2011, 08:51:43 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on December 22, 2011, 08:39:38 AM
Sometimes I have to admit total bafflement and recognise that I have no understanding of my tastes at all. Yesterday I listened to Act 3 of Valkyrie (Goodall/ENO/Hunter/Norman Bailey), and by the end of it I couldn't understand why I ever bothered listening to anything else. But then I've felt the same after listening to Ariodante, La Boheme, several Mozart piano concertos, Immerseel's Beethoven 5, Haydn's 1st cello concerto, and Elgar's 1st symphony. I am, in short, a puzzle to myself.

I identify with this statement!

Although the music of the enlightenment has my heart, the music of Anton Bruckner, Johannes Brahms, and Gustav Mahler has always haunted me, and now, Elgar's music won't let me go either! :o

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 22, 2011, 08:52:35 AM

Oh, I can certainly understand Mahler haunting someone . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2011, 08:55:49 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on December 22, 2011, 08:39:38 AM
Sometimes I have to admit total bafflement and recognise that I have no understanding of my tastes at all. Yesterday I listened to Act 3 of Valkyrie (Goodall/ENO/Hunter/Norman Bailey), and by the end of it I couldn't understand why I ever bothered listening to anything else. But then I've felt the same after listening to Ariodante, La Boheme, several Mozart piano concertos, Immerseel's Beethoven 5, Haydn's 1st cello concerto, and Elgar's 1st symphony. I am, in short, a puzzle to myself.

Well, I don't know if you are different in that aspect from the "normal" classical music aficionado. Even I, who am out of the closet, so to speak, as being a Classicist all the way, get a nice thrill from listening to some of my favorite Romantics, like Brahms, Tchaikovsky, and especially Dvorak. It isn't as though I would dive into them the way I have Haydn, but it is damned fine music, and only a deaf man or a cretin would fail to hear it. But as a long term interest, I don't see how one can afford, in either time or money, to be totally catholic. If I was to research and study every composer that I really do like (let's narrow it down to those for the sake of argument), I would be long dead before I got half through the list. So I have just 4, and I will be lucky to learn them before I depart this mortal coil. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on December 22, 2011, 08:56:13 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 22, 2011, 08:52:35 AM
Oh, I can certainly understand Mahler haunting someone . . . .

LOL 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jared on December 22, 2011, 09:02:36 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 22, 2011, 08:35:51 AM

We are down to the next-last installment of baryton works. In another year they will disappear as though never having existed at all. Of course, pirated adaptations for other instruments were dominating the home sheet music market all over Europe at the time, and would continue to appear regularly for the next 150 years as 'string trios'. But the baryton itself would become virtually extinct outside of museums in just a few short years.

Thanks for your work here, Gurn, and I'm sorry that many of my comments have taken the thread off the track you had intended.. :-[

I will be honest, I have not as yet heard any of the Baryton Trios to which you refer.. I believe Haydn's heart wasn't always in the creation of of the over 120 trios he wrote for the instrument, and that as a whole, they aren't mentioned amongst his finest output... would I be right in thinking that this is the only complete set of these works still recorded?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on December 22, 2011, 09:03:59 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 22, 2011, 08:55:49 AM
I don't see how one can afford, in either time or money, to be totally catholic...

The Lutheran in you must enjoy his Bach, then, eh? ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 22, 2011, 09:12:17 AM

No, the Gurnatron declines to compute the Bachster! The Old Bach, anyway ; )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 22, 2011, 09:16:10 AM

Quote from: Jared on December 22, 2011, 09:02:36 AM
I will be honest, I have not as yet heard any of the Baryton Trios to which you refer.. I believe Haydn's heart wasn't always in the creation of of the over 120 trios he wrote for the instrument, and that as a whole, they aren't mentioned amongst his finest output... would I be right in thinking that this is the only complete set of these works still recorded?

It's such an out-of-the-way instrument, hardly anyone but a Haydn fancier would have heard any of them, Jared. I've done only a sampling of them myself . . . I think that the fact that they aren't mentioned amongst his finest output is more a matter of their hardly having been heard, digested, evaluated, and it were wise not to leap to the conclusion that they aren't among his finest. (He wrote nearly as many symphonies . . . and surely quite a few of those are considered as ranking highly in the literature.)

Anyway, Gurn can speak to this question with much more intelligence than your servant . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2011, 09:16:34 AM

Quote from: Jared on December 22, 2011, 09:02:36 AM
Thanks for your work here, Gurn, and I'm sorry that many of my comments have taken the thread off the track you had intended.. :-[

I will be honest, I have not as yet heard any of the Baryton Trios to which you refer.. I believe Haydn's heart wasn't always in the creation of of the over 120 trios he wrote for the instrument, and that as a whole, they aren't mentioned amongst his finest output... would I be right in thinking that this is the only complete set of these works still recorded?

Oh, no harm done there, Jared. Any discussion is way better than no discussion! :)

Well, you know, it is a difference in attitude that prevails in the 18th century opposed to the 19th. In fact, the entire Romantic Revolution, as I call it, was based (IMO) on the fact that due to great changes in social mores and structure, composers felt that working for a living was not the stuff of artists. I'm not saying they were right or wrong, merely acknowledging their point. Haydn, OTOH, and JS Bach and Telemann and all of their peers ad infinitum were totally overjoyed to be where they were. Haydn wa every bit as happy writing baryton trios for his Prince as he would later be writing operas, or masses, or whatever he was asked (read: ordered) to write. He viewed himself as a master craftsman, and just like in any other trade he made things to order as well as he could.

OK, that said; it is my firmly held belief that there are 2 reasons why you don't see many baryton trios (but a lot more now). They are these: 1> that until the last 20 years or so, there haven't been any barytonists! and 2> there are so damned many of them that one can scarcely know where to start. I know that John Hsu, on his 3 disks, managed to include all the ones in the minor mode, and the one written for the Prince's birthday in 6 movements instead of 3. So he started in by knocking out the oddities first.

I strongly recommend that you get just this 1 disk, listen to it well, then form an opinion based on that. I think Haydn put a great effort into these from beginning to end. When you are writing for Baryton, Viola & Cello, it is hard to sound perky. But if you take them at face value and just listen to the great interplay of the parts, I think you might have a positive thought or two. Try it and see. :)

This one here:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnBarytonTriosRicercarcover.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jared on December 22, 2011, 09:28:16 AM

^^ no, that looks like a great place to start. I was looking at the Penguin Guide, who principally recommend the Hsu, Miller & Arico disks on ASV... which I'm guessing have been out a long time, and possibly harder to get hold of now, because they are hardly budget price. I guess my initial thoughts were led by Sid's review on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Haydn-Complete-Baryton-Esterhazy-Ensemble/dp/B001P4KG1S/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1324577194&sr=1-1

where he discusses the ranking of this output and the merits (or otherwise) of jumping in for the whole set.

of course, I have heard of the instrument, and knew vaguely what it was... but the fact that it was such a sizeable portion of JH's output had completely eluded me.. ::)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jared on December 22, 2011, 09:32:21 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 22, 2011, 09:12:17 AM
No, the Gurnatron declines to compute the Bachster! The Old Bach, anyway ; )

Karl... I simply couldn't live without regular doses of Bach... I'm sure you're the same.. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on December 22, 2011, 09:34:01 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 22, 2011, 08:55:49 AM
I don't see how one can afford, in either time or money, to be totally catholic.

Well, if you embrace the Jesuit roads of working on one's "downward mobility" and that "time" is not ours then it becomes more manageable. For the record, I have been trying to embrace these two paths myself. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on December 22, 2011, 09:40:48 AM

Re: Baryton Trios

For myself, I went all-in with the Brilliant set, precisely because I did not know anything about the instrument or the works themselves. The price was cheap enough for the 18? disks, and now that I have them all (or, at least, the majority of these works) I can sample them as I choose, and go through them seeking out distinctions to be made, favorites to discover, etc.

I just know that had I bought a single disk I would end up wanting to hear them all at some point, so I just went to my logical destination at the start of the journey.

:)

Oh, and I have not regretted having so many of these wonderful works - not one bit.

:D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2011, 09:48:59 AM

Quote from: Jared on December 22, 2011, 09:28:16 AM
^^ no, that looks like a great place to start. I was looking at the Penguin Guide, who principally recommend the Hsu, Miller & Arico disks on ASV... which I'm guessing have been out a long time, and possibly harder to get hold of now, because they are hardly budget price. I guess my initial thoughts were led by Sid's review on Amazon:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Haydn-Complete-Baryton-Esterhazy-Ensemble/dp/B001P4KG1S/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1324577194&sr=1-1

where he discusses the ranking of this output and the merits (or otherwise) of jumping in for the whole set.

of course, I have heard of the instrument, and knew vaguely what it was... but the fact that it was such a sizeable portion of JH's output had completely eluded me.. ::)

Hsu, Miller & Arico are still available, but not readily. They were my first baryton disks, along with Hsu's one on Dorian. However, I can say this with easy conscience; the one I rec'd you is better. Balestracci is a virtuoso on the baryton, beyond question. This disk will show you more of the potential in the music than any other, and that (to me) is because they have learned from those who went before. The truth is, I don't recommend jumping in for the whole set unless you are one of those... (those such as I, that is) who must have all of it. No need, really. A few good disks are all you need.

Yes, 126 works is a large part of anyone's output, I suspect. :) Instead of getting all the trios, consider instead getting the octets to go with a few of the trios. I did that at the first and was delighted with the results. Try these, for example or one of the others listed in my 1775 essay:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/1153387.jpg)

Good music, and you will be forming your own opinion about it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on December 22, 2011, 09:53:35 AM

Listening to Symphony no.47 in G, The "Palindrome" for the first time and WOW ;D I believe this is a "Sturm und Drang" work. The orchestration is refined, and the modulation very moving.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on December 22, 2011, 10:14:49 AM

"Ilse von Alpenheim has recorded all the Haydn piano sonatas, concertini and concerti."

REALLY? What label (if any) was that for?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2011, 10:29:44 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on December 22, 2011, 10:14:49 AM
"Ilse von Alpenheim has recorded all the Haydn piano sonatas, concertini and concerti."

REALLY? What label (if any) was that for?

I have the Concerti etc. in a Vox Box. I think there are just a couple of the sonatas in there. Maybe another Vox Box?

8)

EDIT: It was with the Bamberg SO / Dorati

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jared on December 22, 2011, 10:39:27 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 22, 2011, 09:48:59 AM
Hsu, Miller & Arico are still available, but not readily. They were my first baryton disks, along with Hsu's one on Dorian. However, I can say this with easy conscience; the one I rec'd you is better. Balestracci is a virtuoso on the baryton, beyond question. This disk will show you more of the potential in the music than any other, and that (to me) is because they have learned from those who went before. The truth is, I don't recommend jumping in for the whole set unless you are one of those... (those such as I, that is) who must have all of it. No need, really. A few good disks are all you need.

Yes, 126 works is a large part of anyone's output, I suspect. :) Instead of getting all the trios, consider instead getting the octets to go with a few of the trios. I did that at the first and was delighted with the results. Try these, for example or one of the others listed in my 1775 essay:[/img]

Good music, and you will be forming your own opinion about it. :)

8)

Thanks Gurn... that's a very helpful post, and is something I shall be looking to during 2012. My shelf of music to be heard is stacked high at present... but by pure coincidence, the next disk I shall be playing (again) is one I believe you recommended recently:

(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn99/fandango68/Early%20Classical/61J2B0G0WKL__SL500_AA300_.jpg)

and as they say.. Rome wasn't built in a day...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2011, 10:51:17 AM

Quote from: Jared on December 22, 2011, 10:39:27 AM
Thanks Gurn... that's a very helpful post, and is something I shall be looking to during 2012. My shelf of music to be heard is stacked high at present... but by pure coincidence, the next disk I shall be playing (again) is one I believe you recommended recently:

(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn99/fandango68/Early%20Classical/61J2B0G0WKL__SL500_AA300_.jpg)

and as they say.. Rome wasn't built in a day...

Yes, that's the prudent approach. No point in glutting yourself, take time to enjoy; that's what it's all about after all. Something that isn't so readily apparent during these discussions is that I have been acquiring my Haydn collection for well over 10 years. It went from a pleasant sideline into a main focus about 3 years ago, so that's still a lot of time, nothing overnight.

I did not actually rec that disk, although I would have, given the performers. It came up during our Stabat Mater discussion though, and I find it intriguing enough to have a look soon. Right now, I still have the Rebel Baroque Orchestra sitting in my "to listen" pile... :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HMFreiburgSym80cover.jpg)
Freiburger Barockorchester, Gottfried von der Goltz - Hob 01_080 Symphony in d 4th mvmt - Finale: Presto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jared on December 22, 2011, 11:10:13 AM

^^ yes, I sorry for the error... I have only really gotten around to Haydn seriously this year; before that my knowledge had been restricted to later symphs, Creation and the better known concertos. This year has seen an excursion of all Masses, all Piano Trios, SM, Seasons, 7 Last Words (SQ & Choral), all remaining concertos (except the ones for horn) with his Piano Sonatas looking at me from the shelf. I've scarcely heard a below average piece yet... 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2011, 11:15:16 AM

Quote from: Jared on December 22, 2011, 11:10:13 AM
^^ yes, I sorry for the error... I have only really gotten around to Haydn seriously this year; before that my knowledge had been restricted to later symphs, Creation and the better known concertos. This year has seen an excursion of all Masses, all Piano Trios, SM, Seasons, 7 Last Words (SQ & Choral), all remaining concertos (except the ones for horn) with his Piano Sonatas looking at me from the shelf. I've scarcely heard a below average piece yet... 8)

Oh please, don't be. It is as nothing. well, in a year you have made a lot more progress that I did in my first year! I have some of the late symphonies, some of the quartets (the Kodaly version) and the Ax sonata disk and concertos disk. And I was feeling pretty good about that! But the key thing is in you final sentence; you really won't hear much below average in Haydn. His average is so very high, that is the measure of his quality! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jared on December 22, 2011, 11:30:47 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 22, 2011, 10:51:17 AM

I did not actually rec that disk, although I would have, given the performers. It came up during our Stabat Mater discussion though, and I find it intriguing enough to have a look soon.

What I find intriguing is how this piece managed to find its way 'out of fashion' for such a long time... even now, there are only really a small handful of recordings available, and I have to say it really is quite wonderful. Pinnock's recording (and yes, I realise he's not to everyone's taste) did a wonderful job in bringing the piece to a wider audience 20 years ago... and it really does stand up to repeated listens, rather than being the poor relation of Haydn's Choral Works...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2011, 11:45:49 AM

Quote from: Jared on December 22, 2011, 11:30:47 AM
What I find intriguing is how this piece managed to find its way 'out of fashion' for such a long time... even now, there are only really a small handful of recordings available, and I have to say it really is quite wonderful. Pinnock's recording (and yes, I realise he's not to everyone's taste) did a wonderful job in bringing the piece to a wider audience 20 years ago... and it really does stand up to repeated listens, rather than being the poor relation of Haydn's Choral Works...

In its own time it was widely hailed. Even the Protestant churches in Western Europe used it regularly. And as I brought up in the discussion, it was the one piece that made Haydn virtually a household name in France. But I think the fact is that big Church works, aside from some masses, just seemed to go out of fashion for a very long time. It is hard for me to hear this as a concert piece, so maybe the fact that it wasn't being played in church, and it was really a concert piece, combined to relegate it into relative obscurity. That is merely speculation on my part though.

I've been very satisfied with Pinnock's version for a long time. If you like it, don't listen to the naysayers. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jared on December 22, 2011, 11:50:06 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 22, 2011, 11:45:49 AM

I've been very satisfied with Pinnock's version for a long time. If you like it, don't listen to the naysayers. :)

8)

You clearly have a better memory than me about what you've told me in the past! :D

I'm quite a fan of Trevor Pinnock on the whole... sometimes his works can be a *little* austere, and it's always good to have a 2nd version of a work when you buy a Pinnock version, but on the whole I rate him quite highly.. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2011, 11:54:41 AM

Quote from: Jared on December 22, 2011, 11:50:06 AM
You clearly have a better memory than me about what you've told me in the past! :D

I'm quite a fan of Trevor Pinnock on the whole... sometimes his works can be a *little* austere, and it's always good to have a 2nd version of a work when you buy a Pinnock version, but on the whole I rate him quite highly.. 8)

:)

I may well have said that I am aware that there are people out there who don't like Pinnock. However, I am not one of them, I merely acknowledge that there are opposing points of view. The Festetics are another example; their jollity is not to everyone's taste. But I like Pinnock a lot too. I think he is one of the finest harpsichordists on record, to start with. And I think he was rather a bold pioneer in HIP back in its beginnings. I have all of his Haydn recordings and am pleased to do. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jared on December 22, 2011, 11:59:09 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 22, 2011, 11:54:41 AMI have all of his Haydn recordings and am pleased to do. :)

8)

I'm not sure how many specifically Haydn disks he has released, but I think I own (and love) four:

(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn99/fandango68/Early%20Classical/61oe0GoRmDL__SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn99/fandango68/Early%20Classical/4158HRPH2RL__SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn99/fandango68/Early%20Classical/61bfbSx9-5L__SL500_AA300_.jpg)(http://i302.photobucket.com/albums/nn99/fandango68/Early%20Classical/TrumpetPinnock.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jared on December 22, 2011, 12:06:37 PM

^^ hmmm.. I've just dug out my 'Third Ear Guide' (I'm guessing you're American and you'll therefore automatically own one of these??) which says:

"Once all but unknown, Stabat Mater now has several fine recordings and is no longer dismissed as second-rate Haydn. Like Rossini's SM, it's not invariably solemn, but the writing for the four soloists is so inventive you'll come away humming the tunes".

well, someone knows what they're talking about... it does however suggest that the piece was thought of at least in some quarters as '2nd Rate'... a thought I find quite intriguing... :-\

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2011, 12:08:15 PM

Well, these too;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnPinnockSD1cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnPinnockSD2cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnPinnockSD3cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnPinnockSD4cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnPinnockSD5cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnPinnockSD6cover.jpg)

which are re-released in a box set that I don't have. Also his very first disk of Symphonies 6, 7 & 8 which I read so many bad reviews of that I gave it a miss. Don't do that often, but there it is. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jared on December 22, 2011, 12:13:28 PM

^^ oh goodness me, I completely forgot his 'S&D' Symph boxset... it's presently residing in my Amazon inbox as we type... :-[

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2011, 12:16:46 PM

Quote from: Jared on December 22, 2011, 12:06:37 PM
^^ hmmm.. I've just dug out my 'Third Ear Guide' (I'm guessing you're American and you'll therefore automatically own one of these??) which says:

"Once all but unknown, Stabat Mater now has several fine recordings and is no longer dismissed as second-rate Haydn. Like Rossini's SM, it's not invariably solemn, but the writing for the four soloists is so inventive you'll come away humming the tunes".

well, someone knows what they're talking about... it does however suggest that the piece was thought of at least in some quarters as '2nd Rate'... a thought I find quite intriguing... :-\

No, no guides for me, I am strictly 'seat of the pants'. Well, dismissal like that can have come at some time, certainly. In the 19th century, 99% of Haydn's output was dismissed for one reason or another. But if it was lauded in its own time (which it was) and recognized in our time (which it is), then one needs to question the motives of the 'dismissers'. My personal opinion, which is based on reading a lot of that stuff, is that there were very few, I stress the very, critics who didn't have an ax to grind against nearly every composer they wrote about. Keep in mind, until the 1920's, from 1830 or so, and with the exception of a few operas and the minor key piano concertos and symphonies, Mozart was considered to be rococo garbage, by and large. I personally find the opinions of the 19th century to be strictly trash. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on December 22, 2011, 12:27:21 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 22, 2011, 08:55:49 AM
Well, I don't know if you are different in that aspect from the "normal" classical music aficionado. Even I, who am out of the closet, so to speak, as being a Classicist all the way, get a nice thrill from listening to some of my favorite Romantics, like Brahms, Tchaikovsky, and especially Dvorak. It isn't as though I would dive into them the way I have Haydn, but it is damned fine music, and only a deaf man or a cretin would fail to hear it. But as a long term interest, I don't see how one can afford, in either time or money, to be totally catholic. If I was to research and study every composer that I really do like (let's narrow it down to those for the sake of argument), I would be long dead before I got half through the list. So I have just 4, and I will be lucky to learn them before I depart this mortal coil.

You're right of course, although my progress has been largely one of observing certain barriers come down, for no apparent reason, at various intervals through my life. I would have gambled serious money, even up to a couple of years ago, against the possibility of Haydn becoming a favourite composer of mine. I'm afraid you have to shoulder a substantial part of the responsibility for that sea-change, Gurn.

But our approaches are different. I was a scholar almost from birth, I think - but decidedly in other fields, and never a music scholar. Where music is concerned I really only live for kicks. I do read music books, but (Elgar excepted) not in any systematic sense. I dip according to whim, or to what I happen to be listening to. So I don't really feel a pressure to settle on a particular period or composer. Even so ... I now have so much Haydn that I keep the Haydn collection separately, in a big box, and I probably now have more Haydn CDs than Elgar CDs. Well, maybe not. But it's a close run thing.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jared on December 22, 2011, 12:32:21 PM

Quote from: Elgarian on December 22, 2011, 12:27:21 PMEven so ... I now have so much Haydn that I keep the Haydn collection separately, in a big box, and I probably now have more Haydn CDs than Elgar CDs. Well, maybe not. But it's a close run thing.

I'm not a name-dropper, but my Grandfather was a great Elgar fan... but I think he was biased, because he was fairly good friends with EE's daughter, Carice.. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2011, 12:38:46 PM

Quote from: Elgarian on December 22, 2011, 12:27:21 PM
You're right of course, although my progress has been largely one of observing certain barriers come down, for no apparent reason, at various intervals through my life. I would have gambled serious money, even up to a couple of years ago, against the possibility of Haydn becoming a favourite composer of mine. I'm afraid you have to shoulder a substantial part of the responsibility for that sea-change, Gurn.

But our approaches are different. I was a scholar almost from birth, I think - but decidedly in other fields, and never a music scholar. Where music is concerned I really only live for kicks. I do read music books, but (Elgar excepted) not in any systematic sense. I dip according to whim, or to what I happen to be listening to. So I don't really feel a pressure to settle on a particular period or composer. Even so ... I now have so much Haydn that I keep the Haydn collection separately, in a big box, and I probably now have more Haydn CDs than Elgar CDs. Well, maybe not. But it's a close run thing.

It is an onus that I bear proudly though, Alan. In the nearly 10 years that I have been here, I have seen 2 changes in attitude for which I claim some small credit; period instruments are no longer constantly derided as they once were, and Haydn isn't dismissed as being worth only his post 1785 works, and not all of those. I have been an ardent crusader for those 2 causes; one must choose ones battles wisely. :)

With nearly no formal schooling to my credit, I am nearly 100% an autodidact. So scholarship has been a hobby more than anything else. But keeping ones mind occupied allows the less pleasant parts of life to slide by with fewer abrasions, as it were. History is one of those things that intrigues me. Music history is a natural extension of my passion for music. I can't possibly separate the two. It is my pathological character defect cropping out, I fear. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on December 22, 2011, 01:17:18 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 22, 2011, 12:38:46 PM
With nearly no formal schooling to my credit, I am nearly 100% an autodidact. So scholarship has been a hobby more than anything else.

Oddly enough, in all the ways that matter, so am I [an autodidact], largely. My formal education was as a physicist, but all my most valuable education has been, and still is, self-inflicted; and in non-scientific fields. And scholarship that isn't pursued primarily for love doesn't interest me much, regardless of its subject. This of course is why your Haydn's Haus is such a pleasant place to drop in and put one's feet up.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2011, 01:20:30 PM

Quote from: Elgarian on December 22, 2011, 01:17:18 PM
Oddly enough, in all the ways that matter, so am I [an autodidact], largely. My formal education was as a physicist, but all my most valuable education has been, and still is, self-inflicted; and in non-scientific fields. And scholarship that isn't pursued primarily for love doesn't interest me much, regardless of its subject. This of course is why your Haydn's Haus is such a pleasant place to drop in and put one's feet up.

Well, you are most welcome any time, sir. We Haydnistos are a genial lot, by and large. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 22, 2011, 01:36:19 PM

Self-inflicted eddication: we've all smarted for it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2011, 02:19:41 PM

Quote from: jlaurson on December 22, 2011, 02:01:01 PM
Ah, her husband. After co-habitating with a greater composer but lesser conductor, Sandor Varess.

Woha! Hey now. That's a leading statement. It's not the "jollity" we/they/I object to. We/they/I love the jollity alright. It's the lack of proper intonation and the sometimes sloppy-beyond-jolly playing that we/they/I object to.

Yes, there are people who apparently don't like Hitler's Autobahns... (Not to equate the Festetics intonation issues to the slaughter of 6 + 60 million people. No, they're more in the Pinochet-league... ;))

You take everything so personally. You are merely one of a class of people who don't care for the Festetics, and your reasons aren't necessarily their reasons. Now, if I had said "Jens doesn't like them..." you would have reason to complain if the causes I gave weren't your own. Imaginary intonation issues aside, I'm pleased that at least they don't wring the life out of the music...

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 22, 2011, 03:31:02 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 22, 2011, 07:56:36 AM
Nice, Dave. Are those from the Marketplace? I need to wishlist them if so. I've had those arrangements in the back of my mind for a while now, looking for nice versions. These might be the ones. :)

Hi Gurn - yes, bought from Amazon; the prices on Amazon (w/o S/H) vs. the MP (w/ $3 per disc) are pretty similar, so just depends on what may save you a buck or two. Both are quite enjoyable - not sure these discs are essential to a general Haydn collection (but both of us seem FAR beyond that need!), and transcriptions from that era were common, as we know; plus, these were done by Solomon & Haydn, so just a wonderful complement to a well rounded set of Papa's works - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2011, 04:03:02 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on December 22, 2011, 03:31:02 PM
Hi Gurn - yes, bought from Amazon; the prices on Amazon (w/o S/H) vs. the MP (w/ $3 per disc) are pretty similar, so just depends on what may save you a buck or two. Both are quite enjoyable - not sure these discs are essential to a general Haydn collection (but both of us seem FAR beyond that need!), and transcriptions from that era were common, as we know; plus, these were done by Solomon & Haydn, so just a wonderful complement to a well rounded set of Papa's works - Dave :)

Dave,
Oh yes, they fit in nicely in many ways. They are as authentic as can be, and they allow one to include some of that wonderful symphonic music when constructing an evening of chamber music (as I frequently do). I have #94 on that La Gaia Scienza disk and it is very enjoyable. So here is a chance to expand that a bit. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2011, 04:44:17 PM

Part 26

1777

The opera fetish continues full blast at Esterháza, and we reach a year without even a symphony, or at least, not one that survived. More on that later (1779).

The last of the baryton trios was finished up, and the following year Book 5 was privately published. It isn't known if Nicolaus ever even played it, it is hard to imagine that Haydn had time to resume his customary place in the viola chair for a whole lot of chamber musicking. He was busy, amazingly busy, taking care of the music machine that had grown gargantuan since the days of the 15 man orchestra that he began with. One wonders if he ever had envisioned where music was going to take him. This must have been amazing enough, what if he could have foreseen his London triumphs? Within 3 years though, he would finally be in a position to build the foundation to make that happen.

The music of 1777;

Hob 01a_04 Overture in D
Hob 01a_07 Overture in D
   Manfred Huss / Haydn Sinfonietta Wien
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnOverturescover.jpg)

Hob 11_123 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 5
Hob 11_124 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 5
Hob 11_125 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 5
Hob 11_126 Trio in C for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 5
   Esterhazy Ensemble
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Completebarytontrioscover.jpg)

Hob 28_07 Opera 'Il Mondo della Luna'
   Chamber Orchestra of Lausanne / Dorati Auger / Mathis / Stade / Terrani / Johnson
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnDoratiOperascover2.jpg)

No symphonies, true enough, but here we have 2 overtures though, and they aren't connected to any particular work. I'm sure that some Haydn scholar has considered that one of the many missing operas were originally headed up by one or another of these, but the only certain thing is that two of the many (at least 4) variations of Symphony #53 of the following year used these pieces as movements. Why Haydn did that, writing a work with interchangeable movements, is still not known for certain, but these 2 Stücke were published in England as overtures, so we'll go with that. Huss and company save us once again from the fate of never being able to hear this music for ourselves. :)

I have assigned the last 4 baryton trios here. Book 5 began with Trio #97 and continued through #126, so 30 trios over the span of 8 years, along with the 7 or 8 octets. Compare to the fact that it only took 7 years at most (1764-1770) to compose the first 96 along with all of the other solos and duos and the quintet. Clearly the demand was no longer there. Still highly enjoyable works though, I'm glad I've been part of the first generation since Haydn's own that had a chance to hear them as written.

And lastly, an Italian opera. Il mondo della Luna (The World on the Moon) is a dramma giocoso in 3 acts, on a libretto by Carlo Goldoni, the undisputed master of comic opera in the latter half of the 18th century. This is one of my favorite of Haydn's operas, it seems like Goldoni's story line and/or poetic prowess inspired Haydn to some extent. The overture is darn near a symphony on its own, and in fact he reduced it next year and made it part of symphony #63. Since it was never revived outside of Esterháza, he also reused some of the music in, for example, the Hob IV:6-11 divertimentos that we discussed here recently. Some of it even made its way into the Benedictus of the Mariazeller mass (Hob 22:8) of 1782! As always in this series, Dorati and company do a fine job. Among other noted soloists, Arleen Auger makes an appearance here. Splendid!

I am currently looking for a listing of all the operas performed at Esterháza that were not by Haydn. I have all of the replacement arias to cover yet, and these tell us the year, opera and composer, but there are really only 25 or so of those. If anyone happens across that listing (it must be out there!) please steer us towards it. Or post it here (which is what I will do anyway).

As always, thanks for reading, please feel free to question, comment editorialize, whatever!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on December 22, 2011, 05:50:54 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 22, 2011, 07:50:03 AM
I merely bemoan the lack of concision after 1830. It (prolixity) did reach its peak about 60-80 years later though, didn't it? Of all the things that subsequent composers could have taken from Beethoven, somehow they missed out on his almost magical ability to telescope great statements down to a few terse notes. Haydn had it, Mozart too. Maybe that is the nut of Classicism?

8)

Gurn, are you aware that almost all of Havergal Brian's symphonies are less than 30 minutes in length--the exceptions to be found mostly in the first half dozen or so symphonies (No. 1 being the most obvious).

Listening to the Op. 71 quartets now played by the Takacs Quartet. Totally different sound world from the London Haydn Quartet and Mosaiques recordings (although of course these are different works)-- more decorous and obviously "Classical' although nothing over refined about them.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on December 22, 2011, 06:00:32 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 22, 2011, 07:39:43 AM
I'm thinking that this is due to redundancy. If a man has fewer than 100 opus numbered works and yet 3,333 recordings, how does that stack up to someone with over 800 works and 2300 recordings? Hell, I have 2300 Haydn recordings, for that matter.... :D

8)

Don't take the Arkivmusic numbers at face value. The way their system operates, if a recording includes even one item by a composer, it will show up in those totals. So if Robin Nightingale releases a recital CD which includes five arias from Verdi, one from Bellini, three from Rossini, two from Donizetti, two from Mozart, and four from Puccini, the census counts that CD as one recording for each of the six composers involved.

So those Mozart numbers doubtless include a bucket load of "Relax with", "A Night at the Opera" and "Favorite Adagios" type of CDs.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2011, 06:10:02 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 22, 2011, 05:50:54 PM
Gurn, are you aware that almost all of Havergal Brian's symphonies are less than 30 minutes in length--the exceptions to be found mostly in the first half dozen or so symphonies (No. 1 being the most obvious).

Listening to the Op. 71 quartets now played by the Takacs Quartet. Totally different sound world from the London Haydn Quartet and Mosaiques recordings (although of course these are different works)-- more decorous and obviously "Classical' although nothing over refined about them.

No, haven't gone down the Brian Road yet. But my statement was more general than specifically himself. To me, nearly all composers who stayed on the tonal bus tend to get more and more drawn out, using 200 measures to say what a Classical composer said in 12. Without generalizing totally, I would say that most Romantic music, for my taste, stays around long enough to wear out its welcome. Not that a lot of it isn't very tuneful... :-\

I like Op 71 & 74. Overtly composed for stage performance, they were surely crowd pleasers in a city where public performance of string quartets was routine. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on December 22, 2011, 06:25:38 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 22, 2011, 06:10:02 PM
No, haven't gone down the Brian Road yet. But my statement was more general than specifically himself. To me, nearly all composers who stayed on the tonal bus tend to get more and more drawn out, using 200 measures to say what a Classical composer said in 12. Without generalizing totally, I would say that most Romantic music, for my taste, stays around long enough to wear out its welcome. Not that a lot of it isn't very tuneful... :-\

I like Op 71 & 74. Overtly composed for stage performance, they were surely crowd pleasers in a city where public performance of string quartets was routine. :)

8)

Oh, I knew you were speaking in general terms. I was simply producing a potential counter-example.

I don't think the real difference between Classical and Romantic is the concision or lack thereof. It's not so much that a Romantic composer takes a 100 bars to do what a Classical composer does in 10; rather, the Romantic composer is doing stuff that the Classical composer usually never dreamed of doing.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2011, 06:42:06 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 22, 2011, 06:25:38 PM
Oh, I knew you were speaking in general terms. I was simply producing a potential counter-example.

I don't think the real difference between Classical and Romantic is the concision or lack thereof. It's not so much that a Romantic composer takes a 100 bars to do what a Classical composer does in 10; rather, the Romantic composer is doing stuff that the Classical composer usually never dreamed of doing.

No, there are lots of differences. That is certainly one of them. If what you are saying is that the aim of music was an entirely different thing later in time, then I agree with that. The 18th century aesthetic was completely different than the 19th century, and the music filled up as much as it was asked to do. There simply is no comparison, not just from a musicological standpoint, but from a whole socioeconomic one. Generally speaking, I think that people tend to prefer one viewpoint over the other. Whether they will admit it to themselves or not. Although I notice a much greater eagerness on the part of Romantics to admit disliking Classical music than vice-versa. Not sure why that is. Hmmm.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on December 22, 2011, 10:37:13 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 22, 2011, 06:10:02 PM
No, haven't gone down the Brian Road yet. But my statement was more general than specifically himself. To me, nearly all composers who stayed on the tonal bus tend to get more and more drawn out, using 200 measures to say what a Classical composer said in 12. Without generalizing totally, I would say that most Romantic music, for my taste, stays around long enough to wear out its welcome. Not that a lot of it isn't very tuneful... :-\

You are generalizing totally, of sorts, methinks... (not that there is anything wrong with it).

If concision, one of my favorite qualities in music, is your thing, I'm sure the combined brainpower and memory of GMG could give you a list of works you would enjoy considerably. I would start with Anton Webern's "Langsamer Satz (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000OY6ISU/nectarandambr-20)", which is like packing Tristan & Isolde into 10 minutes... and yet the epitome of romanticism. Or Rued Langgaard's Écrasez l'infâme (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000DJELU/nectarandambr-20) for Violin & Piano. Just two, almost randomish recommendations, for romantic music where you won't have to wish that the composer 'turn the page' already.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on December 22, 2011, 11:24:41 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 22, 2011, 01:36:19 PM
Self-inflicted eddication: we've all smarted for it.

The intravenous eddication injections are the worst, don'tcha find?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on December 23, 2011, 12:02:29 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 22, 2011, 12:16:46 PM
Keep in mind, until the 1920's, from 1830 or so, and with the exception of a few operas and the minor key piano concertos and symphonies, Mozart was considered to be rococo garbage, by and large. I personally find the opinions of the 19th century to be strictly trash. :)

Whose opinions?

Rossini: I take him [Beethoven] twice a week, Haydn four times, and Mozart every day.

Tchaikovsky: Mozart is the highest, the culminating point that beauty has attained in the sphere of music.

Brahms: If we cannot write with the beauty of Mozart, let us at least try to write with his purity.

Grieg: In Bach, Beethoven and Wagner we admire principally the depth and energy of the human mind; in Mozart, the divine instinct.

Schumann: Does it not seem as if Mozart's works become fresher and fresher the oftener we hear them? (add to this that Schumann studied Mozart's and Haydn's SQs much more than Beethoven's before writing his own)

Wagner: The most tremendous genius raised Mozart above all masters, in all centuries and in all the arts.

Saint-Saens: Give Mozart a fairy tale and he creates without effort an immortal masterpiece.

Dvorak: Mozart is sweet sunshine.

Faure: Mozart's music is particularly difficult to perform. His admirable clarity exacts absolute cleanness: the slightest mistake in it stands out like black on white. It is music in which all the notes must be heard.

Chopin: Mozart encompasses the entire domain of musical creation, but I've got only the keyboard in my poor head.

Gounod: As with all great artists, Mozart expressed not only the soul, the taste and the aroma of his epoch, but also the spiritual world of man-man for all ages, in all the complexity of his desires, his struggles and ambivalence. Some of us, who only identify in Mozart a certain aristocratic refinement, may find these words strange. Often we meet with a condescending attitude towards him, to his music, reminiscent of chiming bells in a music box! ...'It's very nice, but not for me' say such people, 'give me passion - Beethoven, Brahms, tragic, monumental...' Such comments only reveal one thing, these people don't know Mozart.

And speaking of Pinnock, don't forget this one:

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/DG427316.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on December 23, 2011, 12:14:22 AM

Quote from: Florestan on December 23, 2011, 12:02:29 AM
Whose opinions?

The critics', if I interpreted Gurn correctly.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on December 23, 2011, 01:30:24 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 22, 2011, 06:42:06 PM
The 18th century aesthetic was completely different than the 19th century, and the music filled up as much as it was asked to do. There simply is no comparison, not just from a musicological standpoint, but from a whole socioeconomic one. Generally speaking, I think that people tend to prefer one viewpoint over the other. Whether they will admit it to themselves or not. Although I notice a much greater eagerness on the part of Romantics to admit disliking Classical music than vice-versa. Not sure why that is. Hmmm.... :)

I am a Romantic who admits loving Classicism.

No, wait, I am a Classicist who admits loving Romanticism.

Actually, no, I'm a Baroque who admits loving both Classicism and Romanticism.

Urmmmm... never mind.

Quote from: Opus106 on December 23, 2011, 12:14:22 AM
The critics', if I interpreted Gurn correctly.

Bah, what do they know about music? ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 23, 2011, 01:40:02 AM

Quote from: Florestan on December 23, 2011, 01:30:24 AM
I am a Romantic who admits loving Classicism.

No, wait, I am a Classicist who admits loving Romanticism.

Actually, no, I'm a Baroque who admits loving both Classicism and Romanticism.

Urmmmm... never mind.

Very well said! :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 23, 2011, 01:48:58 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 22, 2011, 06:12:01 AM
And finally, a singspiel. The Burning House...this is quite a nice little production. The Capella Augustina / Spering are as good as they are elsewhere...

And the two CDs are only €5.99 at JPC now :)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on December 23, 2011, 03:06:06 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 22, 2011, 06:42:06 PM
The 18th century aesthetic was completely different than the 19th century, and the music filled up as much as it was asked to do. There simply is no comparison [...]

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 22, 2011, 06:10:02 PM
To me, nearly all composers who stayed on the tonal bus tend to get more and more drawn out, using 200 measures to say what a Classical composer said in 12.

Now, if the difference was so complete and no comparison can be made, then it folows that what Romantics said in 200 measures is not what Classicists said in 12. Otherwise please show us some concrete 200 measures of Mahler saying the same thing as some concrete 12 measures of Haydn.

Sorry for the insistence, but this Classical / Romantic dichotomy and "adversity" is a subject that has preoccupied me for quite some time and I tend to reconciliation (or rather cohabitation) rather than sharp division.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on December 23, 2011, 04:51:47 AM

Quote from: Florestan on December 23, 2011, 01:30:24 AM
I am a Romantic who admits loving Classicism.

No, wait, I am a Classicist who admits loving Romanticism.

Actually, no, I'm a Baroque who admits loving both Classicism and Romanticism.

Urmmmm... never mind.

and add early music (see early music club) and music of the Renaissance....

In short, I will dive into one, listen and discuss here for days, tire of it a bit and rediscover one that I had left out for a while. An unpredictable cycle of listening, if you will.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jared on December 23, 2011, 05:04:22 AM

Quote from: Bogey on December 23, 2011, 04:51:47 AMIn short, I will dive into one, listen and discuss here for days, tire of it a bit and rediscover one that I had left out for a while. An unpredictable cycle of listening, if you will.

I could have written that sentence myself.. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 23, 2011, 05:53:57 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 22, 2011, 11:54:41 AMThe Festetics are another example; their jollity is not to everyone's taste.

It's not the jollity we Festestics-detractors object to: it's that horribly sour first violin.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 23, 2011, 05:56:06 AM

I couldn't see Sarge objecting to jollity, per se.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 23, 2011, 06:33:52 AM

Oh good, I woke everyone up. Just as nature abhors a vacuum, so does Gurn with lethargy. :)

Nothing like a few good, sweeping generalizations to stir things. Do I believe in any of that stuff? Well, I don't want to, but I see it often enough to remember it. No, I'm not saying that there is no one who is pan-stylistic in taste. Certainly there are lots of generalists out there. You are probably the majority. Conversely, it isn't you who are usually making statements like "I hate Classical music, too dry, doesn't make sense" and "Mozart really sucks, his music is totally meaningless, I don't see how anyone can listen to that". But just because you aren't saying it, doesn't mean it isn't being said. And I have most certainly seen it written here very often, usually by people who claim to like Romantic to Late Romantic music, that they can't even bring themselves to listen to Classical. For whatever reason. :)

There, nice little wake-me-up. Thanks, guys. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnLondonsOp20cover.jpg) London Haydn Quartet - Hob 03_36 Quartet in A for Strings Op 20 #6 1st mvmt - Allegro di molto e scherzando

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 23, 2011, 06:47:24 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on December 22, 2011, 11:24:41 PM
The intravenous eddication injections are the worst, don'tcha find?

They're working on a patch, aren't they?

Quote from: Florestan on December 23, 2011, 12:02:29 AM
Rossini: I take him [Beethoven] twice a week, Haydn four times, and Mozart every day.

Tchaikovsky: Mozart is the highest, the culminating point that beauty has attained in the sphere of music.

Brahms: If we cannot write with the beauty of Mozart, let us at least try to write with his purity.

Grieg: In Bach, Beethoven and Wagner we admire principally the depth and energy of the human mind; in Mozart, the divine instinct.

Schumann: Does it not seem as if Mozart's works become fresher and fresher the oftener we hear them? (add to this that Schumann studied Mozart's and Haydn's SQs much more than Beethoven's before writing his own)

Wagner: The most tremendous genius raised Mozart above all masters, in all centuries and in all the arts.

Saint-Saens: Give Mozart a fairy tale and he creates without effort an immortal masterpiece.

Dvorak: Mozart is sweet sunshine.

Faure: Mozart's music is particularly difficult to perform. His admirable clarity exacts absolute cleanness: the slightest mistake in it stands out like black on white. It is music in which all the notes must be heard.

Chopin: Mozart encompasses the entire domain of musical creation, but I've got only the keyboard in my poor head.

Gounod: As with all great artists, Mozart expressed not only the soul, the taste and the aroma of his epoch, but also the spiritual world of man-man for all ages, in all the complexity of his desires, his struggles and ambivalence. Some of us, who only identify in Mozart a certain aristocratic refinement, may find these words strange. Often we meet with a condescending attitude towards him, to his music, reminiscent of chiming bells in a music box! ...'It's very nice, but not for me' say such people, 'give me passion - Beethoven, Brahms, tragic, monumental...' Such comments only reveal one thing, these people don't know Mozart.

Love these all. But then, I would, wouldn't I? : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on December 23, 2011, 06:48:17 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 23, 2011, 06:33:52 AM
[...]statements like "I hate Classical music, too dry, doesn't make sense" and "Mozart really sucks, his music is totally meaningless, I don't see how anyone can listen to that". [...]I have most certainly seen it written here very often, usually by people who claim to like Romantic to Late Romantic music, that they can't even bring themselves to listen to Classical. For whatever reason. :)

One of the reasons might have to do with age and I'm not joking. It is my personal experience that teenagers and youngsters (roughly speaking, under 30) at their first exposure to music are much more likely to appreciate Mahler than Mozart and Bruckner than Haydn. They also tend to favor orchestral over chamber music and to dismiss opera altogether. Most of them evolve though to a broader stance as time goes by.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 23, 2011, 06:50:21 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 22, 2011, 06:00:32 PM
So those Mozart numbers doubtless include a bucket load of "Relax with", "A Night at the Opera" and "Favorite Adagios" type of CDs.

Aye, 'tis arrant knavery, that we have no Baby's First Haydn : )

(Or Baryton Adagioze)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on December 23, 2011, 06:52:07 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 23, 2011, 06:50:21 AM
Aye, 'tis arrant knavery, that we have no Baby's First Haydn : )

Anyone any proposition for the "Lullaby" Symphony? :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 23, 2011, 06:53:26 AM

Quote from: Florestan on December 23, 2011, 06:48:17 AM
One of the reasons might have to do with age and I'm not joking. It is my personal experience that teenagers and youngsters (roughly speaking, under 30) at their first exposure to music are much more likely to appreciate Mahler than Mozart and Bruckner than Haydn. They also tend to favor orchestral over chamber music and to dismiss opera altogether. Most of them evolve though to a broader stance as time goes by.

That's a very reasonable supposition, Florestan. Hard to discount the possibilities. Mahler in particular seems to attract people who were brought up with a different musical background. I suppose I should like him for that reason alone. Nah :P But still... What does this say about attention span though. Traditionally, that broadens with age. In this case, it would seem the opposite. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 23, 2011, 06:55:08 AM

Quote from: Florestan on December 23, 2011, 06:52:07 AM
Anyone any proposition for the "Lullaby" Symphony? :)

I guess the last movement of 'Farewell'. By the time the last candle is extinguished, baby sleeps like... a puppy! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on December 23, 2011, 07:03:32 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 23, 2011, 06:53:26 AM
What does this say about attention span though. Traditionally, that broadens with age. In this case, it would seem the opposite. :-\

I wouldn't put it in terms of attention span. After all, if one's attention wanders away for 5 or even 10 minutes during a Mahler symphony there's no irreparable harm done. But lose 5 or 10 minutes during Haydn and you're lost for good: it might end before you even noticed, leaving you baffled: what? is this all?

I tend to think more in terms of "coming of age": at 40 one is more likely to appreciate concision and restraint than at 20. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on December 23, 2011, 07:05:21 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 23, 2011, 06:55:08 AM
I guess the last movement of 'Farewell'. By the time the last candle is extinguished, baby sleeps like... a puppy! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on December 23, 2011, 09:16:49 AM

Quote from: Florestan on December 23, 2011, 06:48:17 AM
One of the reasons might have to do with age and I'm not joking. It is my personal experience that teenagers and youngsters (roughly speaking, under 30) at their first exposure to music are much more likely to appreciate Mahler than Mozart and Bruckner than Haydn. They also tend to favor orchestral over chamber music and to dismiss opera altogether. Most of them evolve though to a broader stance as time goes by.

I agree in a 'felt' sort of way... and also in that I've found that with age, people tend toward the baroque. But then, my favorite composer as a kid was Haydn, bar none, and only later in life did I unlock the beauty of the romantics. Bruckner tends to come later, rather than earlier in life.

It is possible, however, to appreciate Haydn in a renewed, deepened sense when one gets older... for different reasons than humor and easy manner.

It is certainly easier to 'impress' with DSCH or Mahler, than with a well crafted Haydn piece.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on December 23, 2011, 11:37:12 AM

Quote from: Florestan on December 23, 2011, 07:03:32 AM
But lose 5 or 10 minutes during Haydn and you're lost for good:

Minutes? Seconds!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 23, 2011, 12:41:20 PM

Acting on a rec I got here (maybe it was from Sarge??) I got these 2 disks today. At <$10 including S&H for the both of them, I could hardly say no! I was always in that odd little minority that enjoyed Norrington's Beethoven with these performers, so having a go at their Haydn seemed natural. :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnNorrington99100cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnNorrington101102cover.jpg)

I suppose that if I do like them, then getting the remainder will cost a minor fortune... :-\

Anyone heard them already?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 23, 2011, 01:12:38 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 23, 2011, 12:41:20 PM
Acting on a rec I got here (maybe it was from Sarge??)

Not me...or maybe you misunderstood me. It's the Norrington/Stuttgart performances I like so much. I've never heard his earlier Haydn with the LCP...which, come to think of it, is strange because I love the LCP Beethoven. 99-104 can be had for just €9.99 now. Hmmmm..... There may be another cat in my future ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 23, 2011, 01:16:03 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 23, 2011, 01:12:38 PM
Not me...or maybe you misunderstood me. It's the Norrington/Stuttgart performances I like so much. I've never heard his earlier Haydn with the LCP...which, come to think of it, is strange because I love the LCP Beethoven. 99-104 can be had for just €9.99 now. Hmmmm..... There may be another cat in my future ;D

Sarge

Well, it was a while back, at the time I didn't even know that Norrington had done any Haydn. Whoever brought it up said they were quite good, I just hadn't happened to see them available until last week. They're in the queue now, so we shall see. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on December 23, 2011, 06:43:38 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 23, 2011, 12:41:20 PM
Acting on a rec I got here (maybe it was from Sarge??) I got these 2 disks today. At <$10 including S&H for the both of them, I could hardly say no! I was always in that odd little minority that enjoyed Norrington's Beethoven with these performers, so having a go at their Haydn seemed natural. :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnNorrington99100cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnNorrington101102cover.jpg)

I suppose that if I do like them, then getting the remainder will cost a minor fortune... :-\

Anyone heard them already?

8)

I have 99-104 all together on a Virgin budget 2-for-1. (Is that the 9.99 Euro set Sarge is referring to?) It's been too long since I listened to them, but I remember liking them at the time. I just can't remember the details of why I liked them.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on December 23, 2011, 11:40:26 PM

Merry Christmas everyone & God bless you all!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 24, 2011, 03:41:07 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 23, 2011, 06:43:38 PM
I have 99-104 all together on a Virgin budget 2-for-1. (Is that the 9.99 Euro set Sarge is referring to?)

This is the one I ordered (from Amazon DE)

[asin]B003BKF6DW[/asin]

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 24, 2011, 04:15:52 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 22, 2011, 08:26:42 AM
My ears remain pan-epochally voracious.

Mine too. What's the aural equivalent of omnivore? Omniear? ;D From the medieval troubadours through Haydn to Henning...love it all.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on December 24, 2011, 04:28:17 AM

Quote from: Florestan on December 23, 2011, 06:48:17 AM
One of the reasons might have to do with age and I'm not joking. It is my personal experience that teenagers and youngsters (roughly speaking, under 30) at their first exposure to music are much more likely to appreciate Mahler than Mozart and Bruckner than Haydn. They also tend to favor orchestral over chamber music and to dismiss opera altogether. Most of them evolve though to a broader stance as time goes by.

I think there is some truth to this, albeit my experience with the reaction to chamber music is not what you're describing, or rather, what you've described in other posts. When I first got into classical in my late teens coming from a rock/metal background I was immediately attracted to Beethoven, Wagner, Mahler, Stravinsky, Shostakovitch, Holst (Planets), Rachmaninoff...the usual suspects. I was not a fan of Haydn, Mozart, or Mendelssohn because I felt they were shallow, lacking in emotional content. (After some concerted effort, I recently managed to come to love Haydn and Mozart at the ripe old age of twenty four. :D) However, I did seek out plenty of chamber music and enjoyed it greatly simply because it was easier to adapt to listening to a small ensemble setting (like you'd find in rock or metal or jazz) than an orchestra.

That said, when speaking with other new classical fans from my musical background I found that most weren't listening to chamber music simply because they weren't aware of it, for the most part. Most of the people they had on hand to ask about classical music were casual fans who knew the grand, big works. Beethoven's symphonies and such. I do realize that you've stated before that you've met young people who actively hate chamber music, though, so I'm sure my experience in this area is not universal.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 24, 2011, 04:32:07 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 22, 2011, 08:55:49 AMBut as a long term interest, I don't see how one can afford, in either time or money, to be totally catholic. If I was to research and study every composer that I really do like (let's narrow it down to those for the sake of argument), I would be long dead before I got half through the list. So I have just 4, and I will be lucky to learn them before I depart this mortal coil. :)

Which is why I appreciate your mini-series: condensing years of Haydn study down to the essentials for those who don't have the time. My four, the main thrust of my music library and research, are Bruckner, Mahler, Havergal Brian and the Schumann's (Robert and Clara).

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 24, 2011, 06:27:08 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 24, 2011, 04:32:07 AM
Which is why I appreciate your mini-series: condensing years of Haydn study down to the essentials for those who don't have the time. My four, the main thrust of my music library and research, are Bruckner, Mahler, Havergal Brian and the Schumann's (Robert and Clara).

Sarge

Mine (of course) are Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven & Schubert. I see a commonality to this in terms of style, time and place etc. There is about as much stylistic difference between early Haydn and late Schubert as between early Schumann and late Brian, it seems. I took 2 easy ones and 2 hard ones. It may sound disingenuous to call Haydn and Schubert 'hard', but from a research POV, the literature is miniscule and very spread out vs Mozart & Beethoven, whose complete works and the many dozens of available books I was able to collect as fast as I could afford them. I still don't have much on Schubert; glad I had the foresight to save him for last! 0:)

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnNorrington101102cover.jpg)
The London Classical Players \ Norrington - Hob 01_101 Symphony in D 4th mvmt - Finale: Vivace

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 24, 2011, 06:37:41 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 23, 2011, 06:43:38 PM
I have 99-104 all together on a Virgin budget 2-for-1. (Is that the 9.99 Euro set Sarge is referring to?) It's been too long since I listened to them, but I remember liking them at the time. I just can't remember the details of why I liked them.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 24, 2011, 03:41:07 AM
This is the one I ordered (from Amazon DE)
[asin]B003BKF6DW[/asin]
Sarge

Well, I got this one last night off the Marketplace;
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/71mxosMPOCL.jpg)

so I think that I will have the functional equivalent of that same box. Back when EMI had them, of course, they could only put 2 per disk, don't want to crowd up those bits and bytes too much, you know.... ::)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on December 24, 2011, 07:16:41 AM

Well, Pinnock's "Sturm und Drang" box is quite a treat! The sound of the first disk is everything I hoped it would be--the transparency is so beautiful. This is only my second PI Hadyn symphony collection next to the Bruggan London Symphonies on Phillips.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 24, 2011, 07:30:03 AM

Quote from: Leo K on December 24, 2011, 07:16:41 AM
Well, Pinnock's "Sturm und Drang" box is quite a treat! The sound of the first disk is everything I hoped it would be--the transparency is so beautiful. This is only my second PI Haydn symphony collection next to the Brüggen London Symphonies on Phillips.

8)

Delighted you like them. Leo. They were my first set of S&D's too, and rather sold me on the lot of them. They bring out the excitement and pathos that I am sure Haydn wanted to display in those pieces. Another, and more accurate descriptive name for them is Empfindsang which is generally translated into "feeling" or "with emotion". I don't think there is a literal translation, but the gist is that they should display sensitivity as well as exuberance. I think the English Concert does that quite well. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnWeilSymphoniesboxcover.jpg)
Tafelmusik; Bruno Weil - Hob 01_089 Symphony #89 in F 1st mvmt - Vivace

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 24, 2011, 07:33:25 AM

Part 27

1778

The new regime at Esterháza kept building. To the point where;

"In 1778 Haydn sold his house in Eisenstadt; the court now stayed at Eszterháza at least ten months every year, and he increasingly spent the short winter season in Vienna. The very long stays at Eszterháza were linked to Nicolaus's reorganization of the theatrical entertainment there in 1776. Now there was a regular 'season' each year, comprising opera, stage plays and marionette operas (in a separate small theatre); in principle there was theatrical entertainment every evening the prince was in residence. At first, stage plays predominated (184 evenings in 1778, as opposed to only 50 operas – and only two musical academies; four others took place during the day, in the 'apartments')" The New Grove Haydn

Now, that's a full time job!

Still there was time for a few symphonies, one of which appears to have used stage music again, but two others that were independent pieces. No more baryton music. A lovely piano sonata in c# minor that was the first of a set of 6 that was completed the following year, and which would become among the first legitimately published works when Haydn and Artaria hooked up the following year. But I jump ahead... The Libera me Responsorium was for an unknown funeral service. It is the last part of a Requiem Mass, although there is no reason to suppose that he wrote as entire mass. The parts themselves, in Haydn and Elssler's handwriting were discovered in 1966 by Robbins-Landon.

And an opera, of course... :)

The music of 1778;

Hob 01a_15 Overture to La Vera Costanza: Sinfonia in Bb
   Manfred Huss / Haydn Sinfonietta Wien
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnOverturescover.jpg)

Hob 01_053 Symphony in D
   Concentus Musicus Wien / Harnoncourt
Hob 01_070 Symphony in D
   The Hanover Band / Goodman
Hob 01_071 Symphony in Bb
   The Hanover Band / Goodman
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHarnoncourtSymphoniescover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Goodman070_72cover.jpg)

Hob 16_36 Sonata #49 in c# for Fortepiano
   Andreas Staier
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardandreas2.jpg)

Hob 22b_01 Responsorium in d minor "Libera me" (part of a Requiem Mass)
   Tafelmusik / Bruno Weil
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnWeilMassesCompletecover-1.jpg)

Hob 28_08 Opera La Vera Costanza
   Chamber Orchestra of Lausanne / Dorati Norman / Donath / Ahnsjö / Lövaas
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnDoratiOperascover01.jpg)

Well, some symphonies again! These all date from the second half of the year, so Haydn went at least 18 months without his staple product. The Hob 53 symphony in D is one that we discussed a bit last year, in that among its (at least) four iterations, the overtures in D from the previous year accounted for at least 2 beyond what we hear here. Hogwood presents it with 2 different finales, A & B. I have yet to have an opportunity to sit and listen to them to see if his other finale is indeed the 4th combination of movements. In any case, I rather like Harnoncourt's treatment here. As well as I can find, those are the only two PI bands that have recorded this piece. Possibly Solomons has, but I can't find it anywhere to see. :-\

We will see next year that among other things, Haydn was in a position to deal with music publishers. His first sale to Artaria (his Vienna publisher for the next decade) would be a set of 6 keyboard sonatas. If you recall, back in 1771 we discussed a beginning of a sonata in c minor, Hob 20. That completed sonata would end the set, and this c# minor one would begin it. It is a very nice work, in a style that is halfway between popular and learned, thus perfect to publish for a large audience. I have chosen the one by one of my favorite performers, Andreas Staier for inclusion here, but I know there are many others (I have 7 PI versions myself).

The 'Libera me' is, as discussed above, part of a Requiem Mass, thus in the normal key of d minor. It really is a pity that more info about it is not available. Landon wrote about it in 1966 when he found and identified the parts, but otherwise not a whole lot. Not even many recordings as far as that goes, but if you have the Tafelmusik/Weil you really don't need another anyway. They even had ME cryin'.... :D

And finally, the year's opera, La Vera Costanza (True Constancy) . Composed in 1778, premiered in April 1779, it is a dramma giocoso in 3 acts on a libretto by Puttini. The original score was destroyed in the Great Fire of 1779 and the version we know today was reconstructed by Haydn for a revival in 1785. It is the story of a virtuous girl who gets the crappy end of the stick. There, I've summed it all up for you! But boy, the music it takes to get to a resolution for her problems is superb. You should never take my comments on opera seriously vis-à-vis the story lines and all. I see the humor (there are only, like 4 total story lines that all operas share between them) but it doesn't in any way denigrate my great respect for the beauty and quality of a fine operatic effort. And this is that, in the composition and in the performance, where we lean again on the steadfast Dorati et al.

OK, 1778 is winding down, and we will soon be moving on to 1779, one of the momentous years in the Haydn Saga.

As always, discussion is encouraged.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on December 24, 2011, 08:27:45 AM

Another great installment Gurn! This is a great way to follow along with my Haydn listening, so I can tell the context in any given work, and makes it easier to skip around his long career if I wish, to compare different periods.

One thing I want to mention, that is important for me personally, is the discovery of the earlier works, such as Op.9 and Op.17 (of which I'm enjoying the London Haydn Quartet accounts). Listening to these are complete revelations. I will never keep my distance from early Haydn EVER again!

Prior to listening to Haydn more extensively in recent years, the main composers of my research where Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert, Brahms, Ives and Mahler. Haydn has now become an all consuming project! Him along with Anton Bruckner (and recently Elgar) are becoming my exclusive focus of research and listening.

Of course to shake things up, are the unknowns and unheards, the contempories of those mentioned above that help provide context and refreshment.

An embarrassment of riches indeed!

8)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 24, 2011, 09:44:52 AM

Thank you much, Leo. I am delighted that it is helpful to quite a few people now. Especially, I am pleased about the discovery of the earlier works. I think that people have a habit (well, I know they do) of comparing, for example, a symphony form 1758 to one from 1794, and concluding that the early one is no good because it doesn't match the quality of the later one. I see that sentiment expressed frequently, although not always with Haydn, necessarily, but I seen Mozart operas compared with Wagner's! :o :o

Anyway, once we get up to the mid to late 1780's I think the abundance of familiar music will draw in a lot more P'sOV, which can only be a good thing. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnFesteticsOp50cover.jpg)
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03_44 Quartet in Bb for Strings Op 50 #1 4th mvmt - Finale: Vivace

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on December 24, 2011, 11:13:03 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 24, 2011, 09:44:52 AM
Thank you much, Leo. I am delighted that it is helpful to quite a few people now. Especially, I am pleased about the discovery of the earlier works. I think that people have a habit (well, I know they do) of comparing, for example, a symphony form 1758 to one from 1794, and concluding that the early one is no good because it doesn't match the quality of the later one. I see that sentiment expressed frequently, although not always with Haydn, necessarily, but I seen Mozart operas compared with Wagner's! :o :o

Anyway, once we get up to the mid to late 1780's I think the abundance of familiar music will draw in a lot more P'sOV, which can only be a good thing. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnFesteticsOp50cover.jpg)
Quatuor Festetics - Hob 03_44 Quartet in Bb for Strings Op 50 #1 4th mvmt - Finale: Vivace

I also didn't explore the middle period symphonies, and I'm in the midst of that now, and it's a wonderful consideration, especially the "sturm und drang" symphonies. I can't wait to hear the stylistic change (after sturm und drang) I'm about to hear soon!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on December 24, 2011, 11:16:42 AM

Oh, and Haydn's operas are truly a discovery. After hearing a lot of classical opera lately, it is quite interesting to hear what Haydn was doing in Esterhazy's rather isolated kindom!

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 24, 2011, 11:24:53 AM

Quote from: Leo K on December 24, 2011, 11:16:42 AM
Oh, and Haydn's operas are truly a discovery. After hearing a lot of classical opera lately, it is quite interesting to hear what Haydn was doing in Esterhazy's rather isolated kingdom!

:)

I would like to be able to compare to other settings, but one would have to have a huge library. For example, La vera costanza that we just discussed, was originally set in 1776 in Rome by Anfossi, a premiere Italian operatist of the day. Haydn was said to admire him greatly, and in fact, instead of redoing Anfossi's greatest scene in the opera, he instead incorporated it intact as a tribute. Anyway, it would be interesting to hear some other settings by way of comparison. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on December 24, 2011, 11:59:32 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 24, 2011, 11:24:53 AM
I would like to be able to compare to other settings, but one would have to have a huge library. For example, La vera costanza that we just discussed, was originally set in 1776 in Rome by Anfossi, a premiere Italian operatist of the day. Haydn was said to admire him greatly, and in fact, instead of redoing Anfossi's greatest scene in the opera, he instead incorporated it intact as a tribute. Anyway, it would be interesting to hear some other settings by way of comparison. :)

8)

I was just listening to the first two acts of an Anfossi opera the other day, his La Finta Giadiniera, which I dearly love. I haven't heard Mozart's account for such a long time that I can't compare, but I will say it is SO worth the experience to have an Anfossi opera on hand (I only have two by him) :)

Alas, it is too bad there aren't more recordings of Anfossi, but then again, it helps me not get carried away. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 24, 2011, 12:03:26 PM

Quote from: Leo K on December 24, 2011, 11:59:32 AM
I was just listening to the first two acts of an Anfossi opera the other day, his La Finta Giadiniera, which I dearly love. I haven't heard Mozart's account for such a long time that I can't compare, but I will say it is SO worth the experience to have an Anfossi opera on hand (I only have two by him) :)

Alas, it is too bad there aren't more recordings of Anfossi, but then again, it helps me not get carried away. ;D

:D In this hobby, it is important to be able to find the bright side of every situation. :) Hmm, he shared a Mozart opera too, eh? He has only been a name to me so far. Guess I'll have to try to expand on that. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 24, 2011, 12:33:02 PM

Part 28

1779

The year that would shape Haydn's future for the next 20 years was finally here. Some of the events of this year;

For the first time since 1761, Haydn is given an entirely new contract, not just appendices to the old one. Much of it is the same old thing, of course. Then, as now, boilerplate was commonplace. However, one very important clause is no longer present. In rereading it last night, I almost missed it because it was done by omission rather than commission; Haydn's work was no longer deemed to be the property of the Prince, he could sell it to anyone he wanted! As a life-shaping item for an artist, this was as big as it got in those days.

Second, the opera house burned down. :-\ Big Deal? Indeed it was, since a huge proportion of his original manuscripts were inside at the time and were lost forever. No one knows how much, really. It is awful to contemplate. He did reconstruct many of the operas, but other things, like chamber music, symphonies, songs; likely lost forever. So it goes.

And finally, he got himself a girlfriend. Yes, it's true. 30 year old Luigia Polzelli.
"The majority of the insertion arias and simplifications were composed for Luigia Polzelli, a young Italian mezzo-soprano who joined the troupe in March 1779 along with her much older husband, a violinist. Both proved inadequate and were dismissed in December 1780 – but promptly rehired: Luigia and Haydn had become lovers, a relationship that, like so many in that milieu, was probably an open secret." The New Grove

He more or less "kept" her until his trip to England, and the ending dragged on until his death. Since DNA testing was in its infancy back then, there is no way to know if the child she bore was his or not. She thought he was, Haydn never committed one way or the other. However, he did treat the lad very well in later years, so who can say? But the important thing is the effect she had on his music; she caused him to write more, and some of his nicest arias for her. We will see two of them this year. There will certainly be more down the road, though.

The music of 1779;

Hob 01a_13 L'Isola Disabitata: Overture in g
   Manfred Huss / Haydn Sinfonietta Wien
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnOverturescover.jpg)

Hob 01_063 Symphony in C "La Roxelane"
   The Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood
Hob 01_070 Symphony in D
Hob 01_075 Symphony in D
   The Hanover Band / Goodman
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HogwoodVol10Cover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Goodman070_72cover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Goodman73_75cover.jpg)

Hob 16_35 Sonata #48 in C for Fortepiano
Hob 16_38 Sonata #51 in Eb for Fortepiano
   Ingrid Haebler
Hob 16_37 Sonata #50 in D for Fortepiano
   Andreas Staier
Hob 16_39 Sonata #52 in G for Fortepiano
   Malcolm Bilson
Hob 16_33 Sonata #33 in c for Clavier (completed)
   Joanna Leach
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardHaeblercover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardandreas2.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardBilsonSchantzcover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardLeach1.jpg)

Hob 18_11 Concerto in D for Cembalo
   Pinnock, Trevor/English Concert
Hob 18_11 Concerto in D for Fortepiano
   Concerto Copenhagen / Mortensen Brautigam
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Pinnockconcertos.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Brautigamconcertoscover.jpg)

Replacement Arias;
Hob 24b_02 Aria for Soprano "D'una sposa meschinella" for Donna Stella (S) in "La frascatana" by Paisiello
Hob 24b_03 Aria for Soprano "Quando la rosa" for Nanina (S) in "La Metilda ritrovata" by Anfossi
   L'Orfeo Baroque Orchestra / Gaigg Nuria Rial
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Rialcover.jpg)

Hob 28_09 Opera L'isola disabitata
   Chamber Orchestra of Lausanne / Dorati Zoghby / Lerer / Alva / Bruson
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnDoratiOperascover2.jpg)

Symphonies! Well, so to speak. Hob 63 is called La Roxelane because it incorporates in its second movement, some music from a stage play "Suleiman II" in which Roxelane was a character, the wife of Suleiman (the Magnificent). And it's first movement is actually a reworking of the overture to 1777's Il mondo della Luna which you will recall came in for some heavy recycling. Don't think, however, that this makes this symphony any less enjoyable or effective. I am using Hogwood's version here, it is the only PI one I have. But there is also a nice performance by the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra if you have any of those disks. That was my intro to this symphony, and I have always liked it.

I admit here to a mistake in last year's listing. So easy to do, I'm afraid. Symphony #70 in D, listed in many sources as from 1778, was in fact composed for the ceremony for the laying of the cornerstone of the new opera house, in December, 1779. Among other interesting features, it has the first fugal finale since Symphony Hob 40 in 1763. It's a beauty and shouldn't be missed. Sorry about all that. :-\

And finally, another symphony in D, Hob 75. The slow introduction here lulls you for a moment, and then it takes off on a wild ride that I always enjoy. Especially the horn parts, which haven't been really prominent of late. And some nice little dissonances that keep the ear's attention.

Now the first works completed for publication. The set of Hob 35-39 & 20. As we saw, #36 was completed first, in 1778. The other 5 were finished in 1779 and off they went to Artaria. I have pretty much dealt the 6 out to different players, as is my preference. But you don't have to, there are disks out there or the whole 6. Staier's is. Haebler's is 5 of them less Hob 20. FYI, this is an historic disk, being one of the very first fortepiano disks ever released (recorded in 1969!). I bought it for the sake of having an historical object, with no real hopes for it. I was very surprised and pleased at the sound quality and the great sense of style that Haebler brought over from the modern piano to this one. Her Mozart on modern piano is one of my favorites, and now her Haydn (and JC Bach for that matter) on fortepiano raise her even higher in my esteem. But hey, that's just me....

And now it's the girlfriend thing. As you no doubt understood from the New Grove quote, Luigia wasn't the world's greatest singer. But Haydn wanted her to do well and have a chance to perform, so he not only made sure that she got parts, but also wrote arias that would suit her voice. Not a big range or anything fancy, they are nonetheless beautifully written, some of his best in fact. You can see they were a labor of love. We get two of them this year, for operas by Anfossi and Paisiello. For now, this is the only way I have to see what operas were performed aside from Haydn's own.

And finally, L'isola disabitata (The Desert Island). An opera seria (azione teatrale) on a libretto by the incomparable Metastasio. It was first performed on Nikolaus' name day, December 6, 1779. This is a really nice little opera, the poetry is of the highest standard, and Haydn wrote music that matched it. We have Dorati again, but there are other versions of this one that I have been trying to get my hands on. I got seriously outbid on eBay at my last effort, but for now, I, and you, will be quite content with Dorati.

OK, 1779. New things happening, new doors opening. Great music still being written. As the last two decades unfold, we are on the threshold of greatness.

As always, discussion welcome,

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on December 24, 2011, 12:34:02 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 24, 2011, 12:03:26 PM
:D In this hobby, it is important to be able to find the bright side of every situation. :) Hmm, he shared a Mozart opera too, eh? He has only been a name to me so far. Guess I'll have to try to expand on that. :)

8)

Exactly!

I have Anfossi's La Finta Giadiniera as a recorded broadcast, and it's a shame it's not available commercially. It is a stunning work in every way. I think Mozart's version is modeled somewhat on Anfossi's take, which came out in 1774 I think. I'll find a link to the broadcast soon and post it in the Classical Opera thread if that's okay.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on December 24, 2011, 12:45:51 PM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51BPVwfmo%2BL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I LOVE this disk of arias sung by Margot Oitzinger! I'll have to revist this as soon as I can in order to comment more. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 24, 2011, 01:02:40 PM

Quote from: Leo K on December 24, 2011, 12:45:51 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51BPVwfmo%2BL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I LOVE this disk of arias sung by Margot Oitzinger! I'll have to revisit this as soon as I can in order to comment more. 8)

Me too. The singing and playing are great, and the music itself, well, you can tell it was personal. Between that disk and this one;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussOperaatEsterhazacover.jpg)

one can have nearly all of the replacement arias. Which is a good thing. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 24, 2011, 02:15:04 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 24, 2011, 12:33:02 PM
Part 28

1779

Hob 28_09 Opera L'isola disabitata
Chamber Orchestra of Lausanne / Dorati Zoghby / Lerer / Alva / Bruson
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnDoratiOperascover2.jpg)

And finally, L'isola disabitata (The Desert Island). An opera seria (azione teatrale) on a libretto by the incomparable Metastasio. It was first performed on Nikolaus' name day, December 6, 1779. This is a really nice little opera, the poetry is of the highest standard, and Haydn wrote music that matched it. We have Dorati again, but there are other versions of this one that I have been trying to get my hands on. I got seriously outbid on eBay at my last effort, but for now, I, and you, will be quite content with Dorati.

Yes, this one:

[asin]B00005MKF4[/asin]

... a nice version played on period instruments, indeed.

"If only Paris could hear my opera L'isola disabitata! I assure you that Paris has never heard any music like it, no more than Vienna. My misfortune is to live in the country...".

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 24, 2011, 02:23:31 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 24, 2011, 02:15:04 PM
Yes, this one:

[asin]B00005MKF4[/asin]

... a nice version played on period instruments, indeed.

"If only Paris could hear my opera L'isola disabitata! I assure you that Paris has never heard any music like it, no more than Vienna. My misfortune is to live in the country...".

:)

Yes, that's one. I bid $46 on it when last I saw it, and got dusted at the end. So it goes. :-\

I like that quote, I find it amusing how from one time to the next, he feels either very fortunate or very unfortunate to live in the country. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on December 25, 2011, 02:51:27 AM

So, there is the first part of scans of the Dorati EOC booklets - L'infedeltà delusa.

http://www.4shared.com/zip/EbysqBKK/linfedel.html

Notes and synopsis in English then original and English libretto.

It was not very easy in the beginning as my scanner emerged rather bookletproof. But I hope next uploads will be done better and faster.

I will highly appreciate any remarks and advices about scanning technique.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on December 25, 2011, 04:39:05 AM

Castagno, castagna!

The second part of the Dorati EOC booklets - L'incontro improvviso

http://www.4shared.com/zip/hQZ-Iup5/lincoimp.html

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 25, 2011, 05:33:29 AM

They came out great! Thank you very much for that fine Christmas present!

And I just take a minute to wish everyone a Merry Christmas, or Happy Holiday of their choice. Mine was on the 22nd, a lovely day. :)

Best Wishes all, and thanks again to Mszczuj,

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 25, 2011, 05:54:14 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 24, 2011, 09:44:52 AM
Thank you much, Leo. I am delighted that it is helpful to quite a few people now. Especially, I am pleased about the discovery of the earlier works. I think that people have a habit (well, I know they do) of comparing, for example, a symphony form 1758 to one from 1794, and concluding that the early one is no good because it doesn't match the quality of the later one. I see that sentiment expressed frequently, although not always with Haydn, necessarily, but I seen Mozart operas compared with Wagner's!

Not to Mozart's disadvantage, surely? ; )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 25, 2011, 07:54:32 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 25, 2011, 05:54:14 AM
Not to Mozart's disadvantage, surely? ; )

Well, not reasonably, of course. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/cover-small.jpg)
London Symphony Orchestra \ Sir Charles Mackerras - Tchaikovsky Op 71 Ballet 'The Nutcracker' pt 21 - Act II Scene 14 - Variation I: Tarantella

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on December 25, 2011, 08:10:37 AM

This was the challenge!

Third part of the EOC booklets - Il mondo della luna

http://www.4shared.com/zip/KauEL425/ilmondllun.html

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 25, 2011, 08:18:04 AM

Quote from: mszczuj on December 25, 2011, 08:10:37 AM
This was the challenge!

Third part of the EOC booklets - Il mondo della luna

http://www.4shared.com/zip/KauEL425/ilmondllun.html

Yes, but you did a great job on it. Are those from the Philips set? They make buying the singles worth the extra, just a cursory reading shows them to be very informative. I'll have to spend some serious time with them. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on December 25, 2011, 08:42:22 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 25, 2011, 08:18:04 AM
Yes, but you did a great job on it. Are those from the Philips set?

Yes. I'm really glad that after 15 years of waiting they can be useful again.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 25, 2011, 08:47:46 AM

Quote from: mszczuj on December 25, 2011, 08:42:22 AM
Yes. I'm really glad that after 15 years of waiting they can be useful again.

Have they been lurking back there for that long then? Well, I suppose that I have some things that have sat for that long too. :D I see now why when these show up on eBay there is such a furious bidding for them. Fortunately, I am skilled enough with a desktop publishing program to be able to turn these pictures into a booklet that appears as the original. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on December 25, 2011, 02:32:47 PM

The fourth part of EOC booklets - La vera costanza

http://www.4shared.com/zip/hiYkJMrz/lavercos.html

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on December 25, 2011, 03:07:29 PM

And the fifth - L'isola disabitata

http://www.4shared.com/zip/O0StNUtA/lisoldis.html

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 25, 2011, 03:34:21 PM

Haydn didn't apparently compose Christmas music (or at least it hasn't been conserved), but today is a good day to commemorate two hundred and thirty years of the Opus 33 (the so-called "Russian Quartets", among other names) which was premiered on Christmas day, 1781, at the Viennese apartment of the Grand Duchess Maria Feodorovna, wife of the Grand Duke (and future Tsar) Paul of Russia. :)

[asin]B001TKUB3G[/asin]

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 25, 2011, 03:39:17 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 25, 2011, 03:34:21 PM
Haydn didn't apparently compose Christmas music (or at least it hasn't been conserved), but today is a good day to commemorate the two hundred and thirty years of the Opus 33 (the so-called "Russian Quartets, among other names) which was premiered on Christmas day, 1781, at the Viennese apartment of the Grand Duchess Maria Feodorovna, wife of the Grand Duke (and future Tsar) Paul of Russia. :)

8)

Indeed, 230 years is a perfect round number, worth celebrating! Thanks for the reminder, Antoine!

Quote from: mszczuj on December 25, 2011, 03:07:29 PM
And the fifth - L'isola disabitata
http://www.4shared.com/zip/O0StNUtA/lisoldis.html

And thanks again to you, mszczuj, this is looking better all the time. No more wondering what is being sung! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on December 25, 2011, 05:06:39 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 25, 2011, 03:39:17 PM
Indeed, 230 years is a perfect round number, worth celebrating! Thanks for the reminder, Antoine!

And thanks again to you, mszczuj, this is looking better all the time. No more wondering what is being sung! :)

8)

And tomorrow (Monday the 26th--which may be today by the time some of you read this) will be the 215th anniversary of the probable first performance of the Missa in tempore belli (26 Dec. 1796)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 25, 2011, 05:34:47 PM

Part 29

1780

By now, Haydn is on his way to being a very popular and famous person indeed. In the 1760 and early '70's, his music was known and highly admired by connoisseurs and other musicians. By now though, he was moving into a period where he was famous even among interested amateurs. His first publication on his own, the Auenbrugger sonatas, dedicated to sisters who were also his students, was a hit for Artaria. This would have hardly been possible before the reworked contract of the previous year. Completed by the end of the year, and published in mid-1781, came the 12 Lieder with Clavier, another popular best-seller. And for Esterházy, 2 nice symphonies, and of course, an opera. This is the sort of balance that would maintain for the next decade, until the death of Nicolaus in 1790. Some for the Prince, some for the world.

The music of 1780;
Hob 01a_17 La Fedeltà Premiata: Sinfonia in D
   Manfred Huss / Haydn Sinfonietta Wien
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnOverturescover.jpg)

Hob 01_062 Symphony in D
   Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood
Hob 01_074 Symphony in Eb
   The Hanover Band / Goodman
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HogwoodVol10Cover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Goodman73_75cover.jpg)

Hob 24b_05 Aria for Baritone "Dice benissimo"
   Manfred Huss / Haydn Sinfonietta Wien Ivan Paley (Bar)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussOperaatEsterhazacover.jpg)

Hob 26a_01 Lied for Soprano and Fortepiano "Das strickende Mädchen"
Hob 26a_02 Lied for Soprano and Fortepiano "Cupido"
Hob 26a_03 Lied for Soprano and Fortepiano "Der erste Kuss"
Hob 26a_04 Lied for Soprano and Fortepiano "Eine sehr gewöhnliche Geschichte"
Hob 26a_05 Lied for Soprano and Fortepiano "Die Verlassene"
Hob 26a_06 Lied for Soprano and Fortepiano "Der Gleichsinn"
Hob 26a_07 Lied for Soprano and Fortepiano "An Iris"
Hob 26a_08 Lied for Soprano and Fortepiano "An Thyrsis"
Hob 26a_09 Lied for Soprano and Fortepiano "Trost unglücklicher Liebe"
Hob 26a_10 Lied for Soprano and Fortepiano "Die Landlust"
Hob 26a_11 Lied for Soprano and Fortepiano "Liebeslied"
Hob 26a_12 Lied for Soprano and Fortepiano "Die zu späte Ankunft der Mutter"
   Andrea Folan / Tom Beghin
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/BeghinLieder.jpg)

Hob 28_10 Opera La Fedelta Premiata
   Chamber Orchestra of Lausanne / Dorati Valentini / Landy / von Stade / Titus / Cotrubas
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnDoratiOperascover01.jpg)

Symphony Hob 62 in D major used another of those overtures in D (Hob 1a:7) for part of its first movement, the same ones the Hob 53 used. Those were some busy little movements! Otherwise it is pretty straightforward late'70's Haydn. The Allegretto second movement uses a nice Venetian sounding barcarolle theme, without ever really putting a melody on top of the accompaniment. I like the Hogwood recording, which is good, since PI recordings of this work are thin on the ground. :) Hob 74 in Eb doesn't reuse any other music, it is an original composition for the orchestra. It seems that he has two simultaneous streams of music going here; maybe the chronologists were confused by the fact that there appears to be a phase of reusing theater music (numbered in the Hob 60's), and then there is a phase of pure symphonic writing (numbered in the Hob 70's). But as near as I can see by following them this way, they weren't consecutive, they were concurrent. In any case, we went with the Goodman recording of this work, a nice rousing one it is, too.

A replacement aria, but not for his little lady this time, instead for the part of Lumaca (Baritone) in La scuola de'gelosi (The School for Jealousy) by Salieri. I like this recording by Huss and Co. with Iván Paley's very nice baritone voice.

And now one of my favorite little groupings, the first set of 12 German Lieder with Klavier. Of the 2 sets (the second completed in 1784), this is the one with the better level of poetry. It is said that Haydn didn't really care about the quality of the poetry, he could make a silk purse out of it anyway. Not sure I agree with that, but in any case, there are quite delightful and fit very nicely into a program consisting in a couple of keyboard sonatas perhaps, and maybe a trio to round it out. This recording by Tom Beghin and Andrea Folan strikes just the right tone, it has a lovely mellow sound that is totally appropriate to the music. Another nice disk, by Anne Cambier and Jan Vermeulen only has 3 of this set, #'s 3, 8 & 11 along with 17 & 21 from the 2nd set. And of course, there is always Elly Ameling & Jorg Demus, a can't-fail combination.

Will there be an opera? Why yes, certainly! La Fedelta Premiata (Faithfulness Rewarded) was composed in 1780, and premiered in February, 1781 at the grand reopening of the new opera house. It is a dramma giocoso in 3 acts on a libretto by the Neapolitan master Lorenzi. This one uses the "annual sacrifice of a virgin couple to the gods" plot line. The wide ranging action and story lines really allow Haydn to hit on a lot of musical devices, which he does very aptly. This one was fun to listen to even when I had no idea what was going on. Now I have the libretto, it should actually make sense besides! Here again, we have Dorati & Co. doing a bang-up job. In addition, I have a box on Arabesque featuring the Padova (Padua?) Chamber Orchestra / David Golub. I haven't even had time to rip it yet, but if you are familiar with it, let us have some feedback.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnOperaLaFedeltaPremiatacover.jpg)

OK, that's it for 1780. Some very nice stuff here. We seem to be progressing, and in the very near horizon are some revisitations to genres that we haven't seen in a long time.

Please feel free to comment, ask questions, provide answers etc.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on December 26, 2011, 04:49:29 AM

These two landed under the tree thanks to Linda:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51S7G4-mWCL._SL500_AA280_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51KFwU0Q6BL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

Will give them a listen in the car today as we travel down to my folks.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on December 26, 2011, 05:23:45 AM

Quote from: mszczuj on December 25, 2011, 02:51:27 AM
So, there is the first part of scans of the Dorati EOC booklets - L'infedeltà delusa.

http://www.4shared.com/zip/EbysqBKK/linfedel.html

Notes and synopsis in English then original and English libretto.

It was not very easy in the beginning as my scanner emerged rather bookletproof. But I hope next uploads will be done better and faster.

I will highly appreciate any remarks and advices about scanning technique.

Thank you very much! You sir, are a scholar and a gentlemen!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 26, 2011, 05:27:14 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 25, 2011, 05:34:47 PM
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HogwoodVol10Cover.jpg)

A few days ago I was looking for the original version of La Roxelane (there was a conversation in the purchase thread). Most of the recordings I looked at online, and listened to, were the revised version (no timps, no trumpets). I only found one of the original: Bostock:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/dec11/haydn5363bostock.jpg)

So which did Hogwood record? It would be cool if he included both.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on December 26, 2011, 05:29:52 AM

Last night I watched the DVD that came with this set:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61CfVXzYfAL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

This project is fascinating in how it combines modern instrument makers and their masterful craft at recreating the instruments from the 18th century and cutting edge computer technology which allows a virtual acoustic image of a room to be simulated with millions of mathematical calculations performed at very high speed so that the natural reflections produced when we listen to an instrument being played live are conveyed within the computer and applied to the recording. Of course it would have been best to simply record the works in the rooms themselves, but as was explained in the film, this was not possible either due to permissions or the practical reality of noise from the busy streets outside. So the next best thing was to "bring" the rooms to McGill University where the project was realized.

The care taken for these recordings; the musicological research, the impressive technological accomplishment and not to be over shadowed, Tom Beghin's skill as a performer and interpreter of Haydn make this set a must have for any Haydn fan.

This easily constitutes my purchase of the year!

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 26, 2011, 07:03:47 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 26, 2011, 05:27:14 AM
A few days ago I was looking for the original version of La Roxelane (there was a conversation in the purchase thread). Most of the recordings I looked at online, and listened to, were the revised version (no timps, no trumpets). I only found one of the original: Bostock:
So which did Hogwood record? It would be cool if he included both.

Sarge

Sarge,
Here is the bit of liner note from Hogwood concerning that topic. My take on it is that the version to which you are referring, the so-called original, never actually was a finished product. Note that it isn't only the instrumentation that is different from that sketch, the bassoon dropped as well as the timps and trumpets, but also it is entirely different music. The music from 1773-74 is most likely the first one of the different finales that he had for Hob 54. It had trumpets and timp.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Roxelanelinernote-1.jpg)

As far as being a version of the actual, finished version of Hob 63, trumpets & timp are not present. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 26, 2011, 07:20:38 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 26, 2011, 07:03:47 AM
Sarge,
Here is the bit of liner note from Hogwood concerning that topic.
As far as being a version of the actual, finished version of Hob 63, trumpets & timp are not present. :)

Thanks, Gurn. I'm about to take off (dinner with the in laws). I'll do a closer reading, and compare it to the liner notes in the Bostock CD when I return. By the way, the Bostock CD has the two minuets and two different finales. Of course I'm disappointed Hogwood didn't include the noise makers :( My first Roxelane did: a Nonesuch LP with a performance of 63 by the Little Orchestra of London conducted by Leslie Jones. I'm conditioned to hear trumpets and drums and miss them when they aren't there. Hogwood's explanation does explain why that orchestration is so rare.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 26, 2011, 07:27:24 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 26, 2011, 07:20:38 AM
Thanks, Gurn. I'm about to take off (dinner with the in laws). I'll do a closer reading, and compare it to the liner notes in the Bostock CD when I return. By the way, the Bostock CD has the two minuets and two different finales. Of course I'm disappointed Hogwood didn't include the noise makers :( My first Roxelane did: a Nonesuch LP with a performance of 63 by the Little Orchestra of London conducted by Leslie Jones. I'm conditioned to hear trumpets and drums and miss them when they aren't there. Hogwood's explanation does explain why that orchestration is so rare.

Sarge

I am wondering if the trumpets and drum were added in to the current last movement (the real, final movement that Haydn wrote specifically for this work), or if the versions that you have are actually using the original finale from Symphony 54 which is where the trumpets and drum came from. I don't have a version of 63 that uses them, but I do have both versions of 54. At least if they were using the original 54 finale, it would be authentic to use the trumpets & drum.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 26, 2011, 07:33:00 AM

Quote from: Bogey on December 26, 2011, 04:49:29 AM
These two landed under the tree thanks to Linda:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51S7G4-mWCL._SL500_AA280_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51KFwU0Q6BL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

Will give them a listen in the car today as we travel down to my folks.

Great, Bill. The Lovely Linda did you well. And since I know that you also have one/some of the Vienna Philharmonia Trio disk(s), interesting to hear your ideas how they might compare. Have a nice trip.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 26, 2011, 07:36:55 AM

Quote from: Arnold on December 26, 2011, 05:29:52 AM
Last night I watched the DVD that came with this set:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61CfVXzYfAL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

This project is fascinating in how it combines modern instrument makers and their masterful craft at recreating the instruments from the 18th century and cutting edge computer technology which allows a virtual acoustic image of a room to be simulated with millions of mathematical calculations performed at very high speed so that the natural reflections produced when we listen to an instrument being played live are conveyed within the computer and applied to the recording. Of course it would have been best to simply record the works in the rooms themselves, but as was explained in the film, this was not possible either due to permissions or the practical reality of noise from the busy streets outside. So the next best thing was to "bring" the rooms to McGill University where the project was realized.

The care taken for these recordings; the musicological research, the impressive technological accomplishment and not to be over shadowed, Tom Beghin's skill as a performer and interpreter of Haydn make this set a must have for any Haydn fan.

This easily constitutes my purchase of the year!

:)

Arnold, your innate response is virtually identical to mine! That was the thing for me too; not only a very nice version of these works, but a fascinating project completed by people who obviously loved working on the cutting edge, and knew their stuff too. I believe it is Naxos' most successful project to date. And my nominee for 2011 Product of the Year. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnEsterhazyNaplescover.jpg)
Vienna Haydn Sinfonietta \ Huss - Hob 02_25 Notturno #1 in C for Lire Organizatte (London version) 4th mvmt - Finale: Presto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 26, 2011, 09:15:45 AM

Quote from: Arnold on December 26, 2011, 05:29:52 AM
Last night I watched the DVD that came with this set:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61CfVXzYfAL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51w-dhb639L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

The care taken for these recordings; the musicological research, the impressive technological accomplishment and not to be over shadowed, Tom Beghin's skill as a performer and interpreter of Haydn make this set a must have for any Haydn fan.
.....................
This easily constitutes my purchase of the year!

Arnold & Gurn - well, believe that I've been convinced about the Beghin offering above, despite already owning 3 sets of Haydn's solo keyboard works! Plus, a great sale price at the moment at Arkiv Music, i.e. $35 - :)

BTW - the above added Overtures disc set is in the mail! Dave :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 26, 2011, 11:22:55 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on December 26, 2011, 09:15:45 AM
Arnold & Gurn - well, believe that I've been convinced about the Beghin offering above, despite already owning 3 sets of Haydn's solo keyboard works! Plus, a great sale price at the moment at Arkiv Music, i.e. $35 - :)

BTW - the above added Overtures disc set is in the mail! Dave :D

Might as well join us 'over the edge', Dave. :D I am more than sure that you will sit down with that DVD and come away with the same impression that Arnold and I did. Wait til you see the Viennese Short Octave harpsichord. It is a fascinating little bugger to be sure. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 26, 2011, 11:32:40 AM

Quote from: Arnold on December 26, 2011, 05:29:52 AM
This easily constitutes my purchase of the year!

It made my 2011 Top 10 list (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,19672.msg584427.html#msg584427) 8)

Quote from: SonicMan46 on December 26, 2011, 09:15:45 AM
Arnold & Gurn - well, believe that I've been convinced about the Beghin

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 26, 2011, 11:22:55 AM
Might as well join us 'over the edge', Dave. :D ....Wait til you see the Viennese Short Octave harpsichord. It is a fascinating little bugger to be sure. :)

I don't think you'll be disappointed, Dave. Even I love it...and y'all know how much I hate the harpsichord ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 26, 2011, 01:52:12 PM

Part 30

1781

A light year on the composition front, but a busy one in general. I say 'light', but some of his finest music rolled off from his pen that year. A symphony with excellent horn parts, first one in a long time to feature the horn. String Quartets!

"I am issuing a work consisting of 6 Quartets for two violins, viola and violoncello concertante, by subscription for the price of six ducats; they are of a new and entirely special kind, for I haven't written any for ten years ..." Letter from Haydn to Swiss intellectual Johann Caspar Lavater

I always struggle with works that are "doubtful". One such is the Horn Concerto #2 (Hob 7d:4). There is no autograph score, it was published in 1781 and attributed to Haydn, but if it IS by Haydn, it is likely to date from way back at the time of Concerto #1 (1762) or even earlier. Since 1781 is an otherwise light year, and since I only like to outright reject works based on positive evidence rather than negative; and dammit, since I like it, I decided to include it in here.

Last year's opera, La Fedeltà Premiata was given on 25 February 1781, on the inauguration of the rebuilt opera house. By all appearances, all the multitude of other operas that year were the work of others. Not even any replacement arias this year!

The music of 1781;

Hob 01_073 Symphony in D
   The Hanover Band / Goodman
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Goodman73_75cover.jpg)

Hob 03_37 Op 33 #1 Quartet in b
Hob 03_38 Op 33 #2 Quartet in Eb
Hob 03_39 Op 33 #3 Quartet in C
Hob 03_40 Op 33 #4 Quartet in Bb
Hob 03_41 Op 33 #5 Quartet in G
Hob 03_42 Op 33 #6 Quartet in D
   Quatuor Festetics
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnFesteticsOp33cover.jpg)

Hob 07d_04 Concerto #2 in D for Horn
   Academy of St Martin-in-the-Fields / Neville Marriner - Barry Tuckwell
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Tuckwellhorn2cover.jpg)

Hob 17_deest Fragment in G for Keyboard
   Christine Schornsheim
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardSchornsheimHaydn.jpg)

One of Haydn's finest symphonies comes this year. The D major La Chasse (The Hunt), named after the great finale. The 2nd movement is based on a theme from one of the Lieder that we discussed last year, although it is one that wasn't published until 1784, that is the #16 Gegenliebe. Although one can't leap to conclusions, since I also have it written that the Lied was based on the Andante instead rather than vice-versa. In any case, it is a lovely theme which Haydn makes the most of. But it is the finale, based on a reworking of the overture to La Fedeltà Premiata which was premiered in February, that is the standout movement. The opera had as a key character the goddess Diana, goddess of The Hunt, so the hunting horn motifs that predominate are in fact dedicated to her. It is very likely that this movement also contained a bit of tone painting too. At the end, it grows suddenly softer, and at the final cadence, surprisingly softer, and just sort of... expires, possibly like the hunt's quarry? In any case, it is a very difficult symphony to not enjoy. Despite the bits of thematic borrowing, it is wonderfully Haydnische, and this recording of the Goodman Band captures it well. As does the Hogwood, but I tend towards the Goodman, it is very fine.

Opus 33. What can one say? One of the finest opera of string quartets by anyone at any time. So full of Haydn's humor that a book can be written on it (and they have been). My choice of the Festetics here is based on my own great enjoyment of them. You might like them too, if they are to your taste, but you also can't go wrong with the Mosaiques. Right now their box set that contains Op 20, 33 & 51 (The 7 Last Words) are being virtually given away and they would be very hard to pass up. I didn't. :) No matter which you listen to though, even on modern instruments, the music will surpass your expectations if you haven't heard it before. And admit it, it will catch you up from time to time. Just like it has the millions before us who have loved it. :)

Our recording of the controversial 2nd Horn Concerto is performed by the Academy of St Martin in the Fields / Marriner, with Barry Tuckwell on the valve horn. As discussed earlier, this is an unauthenticated work, so no PI group will come close to it, which is a pity since it is a rather nice work after all. I agree with the surmise that it is earlier rather than later, since it does sound a touch baroque-ish in places. It is composed for the accompaniment of just strings, no other winds but the soloist. Anyway, the disk is out there, and worth your while to pick up simply for one of the other recordings on it, which is the Cello Concerto in C major, performed by The English Chamber Orchestra / Benjamin Britten with Rostropovich on the cello. That's why I bought the disk to start with, many years ago, and then recently realized it was also the only recording I have of the horn concerto.

Finally, Christine Schornsheim, in her prodigiously all-inclusive solo keyboard set, gives us this very nice little fragment. It is a "deest", which is to say, it doesn't appear in Hoboken. I don't know if it was discovered later or else he avoided most fragments. Anyway, a nice little scrap from the master's Tafelklavier...

So thus goes 1781. Even if you take away nothing but Op 33 and La chasse you will have enriched your listening pleasure immensely.

As always, feedback welcome, even encouraged!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on December 26, 2011, 02:28:52 PM

Today I've managed to complete my transversal of this thread and snag Pinnock's Sturm und Drang set for under $18 shipped. It has truly been a great day in Haydn-land. Now to go listen to some music.... 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 26, 2011, 02:31:57 PM

Quote from: Geo Dude on December 26, 2011, 02:28:52 PM
Today I've managed to complete my transversal of this thread and snag Pinnock's Sturm und Drang set for under $18 shipped. It has truly been a great day in Haydn-land. Now to go listen to some music.... 8)

Hey, that's a great deal! Gotta love it. :)

But Geo, it's always a great day in Haydn-Land... 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on December 26, 2011, 04:01:14 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on December 26, 2011, 09:15:45 AM
Arnold & Gurn - well, believe that I've been convinced about the Beghin offering above, despite already owning 3 sets of Haydn's solo keyboard works! Plus, a great sale price at the moment at Arkiv Music, i.e. $35 - :)

BTW - the above added Overtures disc set is in the mail! Dave :D

Dave, for anyone who is interested in period instruments and especially one who is a fan of Haydn, The Virtual Haydn box cannot help but be an worthwhile addition to your collection. I don't often make recommendations but feel so strongly about this set that I can easily recommend it with no reservations. And you cannot beat the price.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 27, 2011, 07:03:32 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 15, 2011, 12:32:12 PM
Part 22

1773
Hob 28_05 Opera "La Infedelta Delusa"
Liszt Ferenc Chamber Orchestra, Budapest / Sandor
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnBigBox.jpg)

First Italian opera since 'Le pescatrici', and the first for the new opera house, L'infedeltà delusa (Deceit outwitted) is a comedy (burlesca) from a score by Coltellini. It was first performed in July for the nameday of the Prince's mother, and again in September during a famous visit by Empress Maria Teresa, after which she declared that if she wanted to see an opera, Esterháza was the place to go. While she was there, she also saw the marionette opera Philemon & Baucis and was so impressed that a couple of years later she borrowed the entire kit and caboodle from the Prince and treated herself in Vienna.

Please feel free to discuss. I certainly would appreciate some feedback on these essays to help to make them useful for you. :)

Admittedly, I can't follow the pace of this thread, so I'm a bit late. Anyway, I wonder if the Haydnistos have noticed the existence of a PI version of this opera, conducted by Sigiswald Kuijken:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/615ACxmeSuL._SS500_.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 27, 2011, 07:10:26 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 27, 2011, 07:03:32 AM
Admittedly, I can't follow the pace of this thread, so I'm a bit late. Anyway, I wonder if the Haydnistos have noticed the existence of a PI version of this opera, conducted by Sigiswald Kuijken:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/615ACxmeSuL._SS500_.jpg)

8)

Hmm, looks lovely! Does it actually exist though? Or did DHM print 7 copies in order to have the nice picture of Esterháza? :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 27, 2011, 07:14:18 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 27, 2011, 07:10:26 AM
Hmm, looks lovely! Does it actually exist though? Or did DHM print 7 copies in order to have the nice picture of Esterháza? :D

8)

I think there are some copies at some AMP (UK, for instance). Anyway, if they only made 7 copies, your friend owns one of them... ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 27, 2011, 07:22:20 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 27, 2011, 07:14:18 AM
I think there are some copies at some AMP (UK, for instance). Anyway, if they only made 7 copies, your friend owns one of them... ;D

Aye, pity he lives in Chile! >:( :D

Well, I'll cast about. You never know. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 27, 2011, 07:26:54 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 27, 2011, 07:22:20 AM
Aye, pity he lives in Chile! >:( :D

It's crazy because I bought this set two years ago at a local store... here in Chile!

IIRC, I paid $40 aprox., so I guess it wasn't a bargain.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 27, 2011, 07:30:11 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 27, 2011, 07:26:54 AM
It's crazy because I bought this set two years ago at a local store... here in Chile!

IIRC, I paid $40 aprox., so I guess it wasn't a bargain.

Apparently in the opera world, paying $40 for a 2 disk set is routine. I only thought I had seen expensive CD's before I started looking at opera! ::)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 27, 2011, 07:42:32 AM

(* chortle *)

Separately . . . I saw the Haydn opera box at Newbury Comics.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 27, 2011, 07:46:37 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 27, 2011, 07:42:32 AM
(* chortle *)

Separately . . . I saw the Haydn opera box at Newbury Comics.

That's where I bought my 2 boxes (I have the 2 orange ones). At that time, and not infrequently, they had the best prices plus I know they are a fast shipper. I buy a lot from them online. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 27, 2011, 07:49:43 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 27, 2011, 07:30:11 AM
Apparently in the opera world, paying $40 for a 2 disk set is routine. I only thought I had seen expensive CD's before I started looking at opera! ::)

8)

Yes, that's true. As I have commented before, I don't almost have experience in opera, just excepting some Baroque operas (a quite different animal, indeed) and particularly the operas of the Vivaldi Edition on Naïve.

Btw, I discovered some time ago another Haydn opera played on period instruments (Hungaroton), but I haven't seen any copy available:

(http://cover7.cduniverse.com/CDUCoverArt/Music/07/1523907.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 27, 2011, 07:57:22 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 27, 2011, 07:49:43 AM
Yes, that's true. As I have commented before, I don't almost have experience in opera, just excepting some Baroque operas (a quite different animal, indeed) and particularly the operas of the Vivaldi Edition on Naïve.

Btw, I discovered some time another Haydn opera played on period instruments (Hungaroton), but I haven't seen any copy available:

(http://cover7.cduniverse.com/CDUCoverArt/Music/07/1523907.jpg)

That looks very interesting. I would like to have it, although this one here;
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnCantarinacover.jpg)
is the world premiere and a nice disk too. Nicer still because I own it.... :D One could actually, if one was a hunter of course, compile an entire set of operas without using Dorati at all. Except for Le Pescatrici, but then, Dorati doesn't do that one either. The Lithuanian Opera disk I showed is the only ever recording of it. I have suggested to Herr Huss that he make that his next project, but I don't know how he took that. It would be very cool!

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnEsterhazyNaplescover.jpg)
Vienna Haydn Sinfonietta \ Huss - Hob 10_12 Divertimento Octet #7 in G for Baryton, Winds & Strings 1st mvmt - Moderato

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 27, 2011, 08:02:59 AM

Quote from: Arnold on December 26, 2011, 04:01:14 PM
Dave, for anyone who is interested in period instruments and especially one who is a fan of Haydn, The Virtual Haydn box cannot help but be an worthwhile addition to your collection. I don't often make recommendations but feel so strongly about this set that I can easily recommend it with no reservations. And you cannot beat the price.

Arnold - thanks for the re-confirmation - set is ordered from Arkiv Music and is on its way! Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on December 27, 2011, 08:07:33 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 27, 2011, 07:57:22 AM
That looks very interesting. I would like to have it, although this one here;
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnCantarinacover.jpg)
is the world premiere and a nice disk too. Nicer still because I own it.... :D One could actually, if one was a hunter of course, compile an entire set of operas without using Dorati at all. Except for Le Pescatrici, but then, Dorati doesn't do that one either. The Lithuanian Opera disk I showed is the only ever recording of it. I have suggested to Herr Huss that he make that his next project, but I don't know how he took that. It would be very cool!

It's curious. This intermezzo in musica is always presented as La Canterina, but your disc is titled La Cantarina.

Right now, I found these copies of the Hungaroton disc:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0000030BM/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&qid=1325005040&sr=8-4&condition=used

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51nCVE0WaPL.jpg)

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 27, 2011, 08:14:26 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 27, 2011, 08:07:33 AM
It's curious. This intermezzo in musica is always presented as La Canterina, but your disc is titled La Cantarina.

Right now, I found these copies of the Hungaroton disc:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0000030BM/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&qid=1325005040&sr=8-4&condition=used

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51nCVE0WaPL.jpg)
:)

Hmm, they aren't giving it away, are they? Well, no surprise. Maybe we need to move to Hungary. :D

Yes, when I posted that disk originally, I noted that phenomenon. I couldn't know which was correct, my book or my disk. If I was spelling it just from instinct, I would use the 'a', although I am not a native Italian speaker... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on December 27, 2011, 08:43:57 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on December 27, 2011, 08:02:59 AM
Arnold - thanks for the re-confirmation - set is ordered from Arkiv Music and is on its way! Dave :)

Me too!

Begin the Beghin!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 27, 2011, 09:38:44 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 27, 2011, 07:46:37 AM
That's where I bought my 2 boxes (I have the 2 orange ones). At that time, and not infrequently, they had the best prices plus I know they are a fast shipper. I buy a lot from them online. :)

8)

Gosh . . . there's more than one opera box? . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on December 27, 2011, 09:44:11 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 27, 2011, 09:38:44 AM
Gosh . . . there's more than one opera box? . . .

The same box in an earlier incarnation as 2 volumes.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61TBDwWdyPL._AA115_.jpg)
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51sSv6ICqvL._AA115_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51zvoRGcKwL._AA115_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 27, 2011, 09:48:51 AM

Ah, so the one on top is complete?

'at's the one I saw at Newbury Comics . . . wonder if it's still there? . . .

Thanks, Nav!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on December 27, 2011, 09:54:58 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 27, 2011, 09:48:51 AM
Ah, so the one on top is complete?

'at's the one I saw at Newbury Comics . . . wonder if it's still there? . . .

Thanks, Nav!

You're welcome, Karl. I shall leave the question of 'completeness' (a tricky thing that) to Gurn; but the contents of the two earlier volumes are available in the single Decca box, if that is all what you meant by "complete".

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 27, 2011, 09:56:20 AM

In my innocence, Nav, that was all I meant : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 27, 2011, 10:05:29 AM

So, "eight mature operas" is what I read. I suppose I need only wait for Gurn's further instalments! : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 27, 2011, 11:02:31 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 27, 2011, 07:30:11 AM
Apparently in the opera world, paying $40 for a 2 disk set is routine. I only thought I had seen expensive CD's before I started looking at opera! ::)

8)

Opera is sometimes more expensive, but $20 per cd is nuts. Even Opera Rara can be found on sale for $12-14 per cd (where at least you get a gorgeous and big booklet). And many well known sets are now being issued for much less. But they can be very expensive if you pay full retail price. Don't do that! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 27, 2011, 06:40:29 PM

I've enjoyed listening to Harnoncourt, Goodman, Koopman, Huss, Pinnock, Kuijken, Orpheus C.O. and more perform the symphonies of Haydn.
But nothing prepared me for my discovery this evening...Thomas Fey. :o ;D

Thrilling is a word that easily comes to mind.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 28, 2011, 03:45:38 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 26, 2011, 07:03:47 AM
Sarge,
Here is the bit of liner note from Hogwood concerning that topic. My take on it is that the version to which you are referring, the so-called original, never actually was a finished product.

It existed as incidental music and an overture. Why H.C. Robbins Landon thought that constituted an original version of the symphony is unclear. It's Landon's reconstruction that is conducted by Leslie Jones and Bostock:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/june2010/jones63.jpg)

(Bostock includes the alternate minuet and finale also).

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 28, 2011, 04:30:12 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 27, 2011, 06:40:29 PM
I've enjoyed listening to Harnoncourt, Goodman, Koopman, Huss, Pinnock, Kuijken, Orpheus C.O. and more perform the symphonies of Haydn.
But nothing prepared me for my discovery this evening...Thomas Fey. :o ;D

Thrilling is a word that easily comes to mind.

[asin]B0009IOR98[/asin]
[asin]B00140L7DY[/asin]

No.39 and No.70 from these Fey recordings are the two that I first listened to.
I was just going through my Goodman/Hanover Band discs, I've always appreciated the clean and detailed balanced from the Hanover Band, every line and instrument is equal, the continuo is a little too apparent at times, but I find Goodman to create more passion with Haydn's symphonies than Pinnock's recordings.
But I hear a lot of everything in these Fey performances so far, especially detail and passion, but as I mentioned before, the Fey performances are thrilling.
Still need to do some research, but I feel as if Fey is not directing from a keyboard (as Goodman and Pinnock are), so maybe this allows for more of an interpretation from Fey. Anyway, I am diving head first into these recordings!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on December 28, 2011, 04:36:46 AM

I know his Paris set. It's fabulous, easily my favourite.

[asin]B0040Y7F1E[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 28, 2011, 04:38:57 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on December 28, 2011, 04:36:46 AM
I know his Paris set. It's fabulous, easily my favourite.

[asin]B0040Y7F1E[/asin]

I'll bookmark that, No.86 is one of my favorites. Thanks!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 28, 2011, 04:39:23 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 28, 2011, 04:30:12 AM
But I hear a lot of everything in these Fey performances so far, especially detail and passion, but as I mentioned before, the Fey performances are thrilling.

I've had 60/61 in my collection. 53/54 arrived this morning. Thrilling indeed. The hybrid orchestra appeals to me (modern strings and winds, period brass and timps). It's nice, too, that Fey and band are my homies (I live close to Heidelberg) 8)

Quote from: chasmaniac on December 28, 2011, 04:36:46 AM
I know his Paris set. It's fabulous, easily my favourite.

I fear this is going to put a sizeable hole in my bank account. I already ordered the Paris set and 31 (coupled with two horn concertos).

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 28, 2011, 04:53:03 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 28, 2011, 04:39:23 AM
It's nice, too, that Fey and band are my homies (I live close to Heidelberg) 8)
Sarge

Great! My brother played in the Heidelberg Music Festival for several years.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 28, 2011, 04:39:23 AM

I fear this is going to put a sizeable hole in my bank account. I already ordered the Paris set and 31 (coupled with two horn concertos).

Sarge

I'll also be experiencing a similar hole in my account, thanks to Fey.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 28, 2011, 05:22:18 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 28, 2011, 04:39:23 AM
I've had 60/61 in my collection. 53/54 arrived this morning. Thrilling indeed. The hybrid orchestra appeals to me (modern strings and winds, period brass and timps). It's nice, too, that Fey and band are my homies (I live close to Heidelberg) 8)

I fear this is going to put a sizeable hole in my bank account. I already ordered the Paris set and 31 (coupled with two horn concertos).

Listening to the clips of that concerti-plus-31 disc, very nice indeed.

This Haus is evil! ; )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 28, 2011, 05:26:10 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 28, 2011, 05:22:18 AM
Listening to the clips of that concerti-plus-31 disc, very nice indeed.

Yeah, I'm a sucker for valveless horns.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 28, 2011, 06:28:55 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 28, 2011, 05:22:18 AM

This Haus is evil! ; )

>:D another creature feared by Salieri >:D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 28, 2011, 07:00:16 AM

On my walk to the North End this morning, I stopped by Newbury Comics, for to see what that Haydn operas box is priced at. $65.99.

Not an unreasonable price for a 20-CD box, and one likes to support the few remaining brick-&-mortar establishments when one can. But right at the moment, if I were to tell the missus that I spent $66 on a box of Haydn operas, she would likely look at me as if I were a crazy person.

And those of us who have experience maintaining marital harmony know that it is a much easier matter, when one avoids actions which provoke looks as if one were a crazy person : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 28, 2011, 07:06:37 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 28, 2011, 07:00:16 AM
And those of us who have experience maintaining marital harmony know that it is a much easier matter, when one avoids actions which provoke looks as if one were a crazy person[/font] : )

Indeed, I do...Mrs. Rock has already committed me. I'm typing from my padded cell. It was the purchase of that last "Cat" that did it.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 28, 2011, 07:07:50 AM

"Do not do as I have done," laments the Sarge!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on December 28, 2011, 07:09:13 AM

Rationality. Pfft.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: springrite on December 28, 2011, 07:16:24 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 28, 2011, 07:06:37 AM
Indeed, I do...Mrs. Rock has already committed me. I'm typing from my padded cell. It was the purchase of that last "Cat" that did it.

Sarge

That's what happens when a sarge marries an admiral.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 28, 2011, 07:25:12 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on December 28, 2011, 07:09:13 AM
Rationality. Pfft.

Exactly. By all means, harmony over rationality : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 28, 2011, 10:00:51 AM

Gurn, I mentioned a trip to the Boston Public Library this morning. Picked this up, as well:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51OtO2AEMKL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on December 28, 2011, 11:45:19 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 28, 2011, 07:00:16 AM
On my walk to the North End this morning, I stopped by Newbury Comics, for to see what that Haydn operas box is priced at. $65.99.

$66 for 20 CD, that is $3.3 per CD; my last 2011 order (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,13.msg586457.html#msg586457) was $54 for 17 CD, that is $3.2 per CD.

Quote
Not an unreasonable price for a 20-CD box,

Quite agree. :)

Quote
and one likes to support the few remaining brick-&-mortar establishments when one can.

Absolutely.

Quote
But right at the moment, if I were to tell the missus that I spent $66 on a box of Haydn operas, she would likely look at me as if I were a crazy person.

Well, I have a tested, unbeatable strategy. Whenever my wife feels like going shopping, I manoeuvre (is this an English word?) to go to malls that feature a book/CD - store. This way, while she goes shopping her way I, pretend (which is actually true) that I have no patience browsing shoes, purses and sweaters --- and I browse books and CDs. When she's done shopping, she comes to pick me up. That is the moment when I say, as if unwilling to spend money: "Why did you tempt me? Why did you make me get in here?" and grab at least 3 CDs or books... ;D

Quote
And those of us who have experience maintaining marital harmony know that it is a much easier matter, when one avoids actions which provoke looks as if one were a crazy person[/font] : )

D'you mean your wife married you for not being crazy? :o I'm soooo veeeery disapoooointed... ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on December 28, 2011, 11:58:55 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 28, 2011, 07:25:12 AM
Exactly. By all means, harmony over rationality : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on December 28, 2011, 07:12:56 PM

Quote from: Florestan on December 28, 2011, 11:45:19 AM

Well, I have a tested, unbeatable strategy. Whenever my wife feels like going shopping, I manoeuvre (is this an English word?)

yes, it is, although I think we Yanks spell it a little differently. I'm too lazy to fetch my dictionary to check.

Quote
to go to malls that feature a book/CD - store.

You have malls there that still have book and CD stores? Amazing. Around here, what bookstores and CD stores there are are freestanding or in strip malls, and other than Barnes and Noble, generally specialize in used stuff.

BTW, I purchased that Opera box at a bricks and mortar Barnes and Noble; they had the same retail but I had a twenty or twenty five percent off coupon, which brough the price down to about 50USD.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on December 29, 2011, 02:15:57 AM

The sixth part of scans of the EOC booklets - La fedeltà premiata

http://www.4shared.com/zip/nl-qklmJ/lafedpre.html

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 29, 2011, 05:00:04 AM

Quote from: mszczuj on December 29, 2011, 02:15:57 AM
The sixth part of scans of the EOC booklets - La fedeltà premiata

http://www.4shared.com/zip/nl-qklmJ/lafedpre.html

Thanks :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 29, 2011, 05:26:41 AM

Quote from: AndreiD'you mean your wife married you for not being crazy? :o I'm soooo veeeery disapoooointed... ;D

Well, like many semi-rational things in life, I think there was both the attraction of the unreasoning, intuitive artistic element, and yet the reasonable expectation that family life should in important things be reliably stable : )

Quote from: Florestan on December 28, 2011, 11:45:19 AM
$66 for 20 CD, that is $3.3 per CD; my last 2011 order was $54 for 17 CD, that is $3.2 per CD.

Ho capito . . . indeed, the Ross Scarlatti box I fetched in at price reducing to $2.97 per disc

Quote from: Andrei. . . manoeuvre (is this an English word?)

One with a rich history, to be sure! Standard spelling in US English has become maneuver. British English may favor — favour, sorry! — the spelling manoeuvre . . . and I have an idea that I have read in Poe (possibly [also] in Irving) — back in those days when orthography in the new nation was still somewhat up for grabs — a version which preserves the ligature: manœuvre (or it might have been manœuver).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on December 30, 2011, 12:33:46 AM

Haven't been posting much, but I have been peering over other people's shoulders a bit; and one consequence is that yesterday I ordered this, after reading the recommendations above (thanks), and listening to some samples:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61E4bJ1KvuL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I'm also looking long and hard at this next, below, and we're very near the end of the month, so I think I might take the plunge in the next day or two:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61CfVXzYfAL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 30, 2011, 02:08:22 AM

Both of them signal temptations, Alan.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 30, 2011, 07:06:27 AM

Disc number 2 of Fey's Haydn has arrived with symphony No70 at the start, a piece I'm not too familiar with, but again Fey is creating an exciting and full-bodied sound that I greatly appreciate. Nice dynamic marking additions and changes that are enhancing the quality of these compositions. I have 4 more in the mail along with 2 more Goodman/Hanover on their way, this is too much fun. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on December 30, 2011, 08:18:20 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on December 30, 2011, 12:33:46 AM
I'm also looking long and hard at this next, below, and we're very near the end of the month, so I think I might take the plunge in the next day or two:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61CfVXzYfAL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

That's anchoring my shopping cart at Arkivmusic. I'll probably be ordering it tonight or tomorrow. ( I like to wait for Friday, to see what "Weekend Specials" they are offering, and then if something is tempting I use it to top off the order.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on December 30, 2011, 11:19:07 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 30, 2011, 08:18:20 AM
That's anchoring my shopping cart at Arkivmusic. I'll probably be ordering it tonight or tomorrow. ( I like to wait for Friday, to see what "Weekend Specials" they are offering, and then if something is tempting I use it to top off the order.)

I've had the set for well over a year, but only this Christmas vacation did I finally get a chance to play it (thanks to the portable Blu-ray drive)... so it's like a new recording for me, as well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on December 31, 2011, 02:47:30 AM

Any reason why Haydn waited until No. 99 to write a symphony which employed clarinets? Was Stadler too busy playing Mozart? ???

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on December 31, 2011, 03:50:17 AM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61CfVXzYfAL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

OK, I pressed the button. Europadisc are doing a nice offer on it through Jan
and Feb (25% off, down to £27):

http://www.europadisc.co.uk/classical/99405/The_Virtual_Haydn_-_Complete_Works_for_Solo_Keyboard.htm (http://www.europadisc.co.uk/classical/99405/The_Virtual_Haydn_-_Complete_Works_for_Solo_Keyboard.htm)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 31, 2011, 06:06:25 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 27, 2011, 10:05:29 AM
So, "eight mature operas" is what I read. I suppose I need only wait for Gurn's further instalments! : )

These are the Italian operas, Karl.

Hob 28 - (Italian) Operas
Year     Hob 28 #   Title      Libretto
1762     1     Acide     Migliavacca
1766     2     La canterina     Unk
1768     3     Lo speziale     after Goldoni
1769     4     Le pescatrici     after Goldoni
1773     5     L'infedelta delusa   Coltellini
1775     6     L'incontro improvviso    Friberth
1777     7     Il mondo della luna    Goldoni
1778     8     La vera costanza     Puttini
1779     9     L'isola disabitata   Metastasio after Lorenzi
1780     10     La fedelta premiata     Unk
1782     11     Orlando paladino     Badini
1783     12     Armida     Unk
1791     13     L'anima del filosofo     Badini

The ones in blue are written for the Esterháza Operas House, and they are the 8 that Dorati recorded. Note that the box does say "The Esterházy Operas". Also, the likelihood that he wrote more, possibly several more that were destroyed in the Great Fire of 1779 has to be considered.

When we get to 1791, I will present a fuller discussion of L'anima del filosofo. It was never performed there due to infighting on the part of concert promoters, but Haydn got paid for it so he was OK with that. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnLaGaiaFluteTrioscover.jpg)
La Gaia Scienza \ Marco Brolli (Traverso) - Hob 15_17 Trio in F for Flute, Cello & Fortepiano 2nd mvmt - Finale: Tempo di Menuetto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 31, 2011, 06:22:18 AM

Good morning, fellow Haydnistos. Hard to believe that 4 pages went by without yours truly getting a word in. I became ill on Wednesday and have only now sufficiently recovered to see what's going on here. I'm delighted that y'all have been working on your collections.

I think that those of you who have invested in Beghin will be pleased. I read a comment in the Haydn User Group on Yahoo, the writer didn't like Beghin's playing style although he was very pleased with the set in general. Well, as you may or may not know, keyboard instruments were played differently in the 18th century, usually with a much more articulated style, and very little legato. By the early 19th century the relationship between staccato and legato had completely reversed, and staccato had become an ornament. This is why you hear Beethoven telling Ries that he had heard Mozart play and thought his playing to be "choppy". In any case, Beghin tends towards that very authentic playing style, and I think if your ears aren't ready for it, the lack of legato sounds a bit odd. I would just point out that if you really want to hear that style expertly performed, a brief visit with Semmerjian playing Mozart is in order. :)

I like Fey too. I have the first 6 disks in his series. If I wasn't confining myself to strictly PI rec's, I would have him near the top of the list. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on December 31, 2011, 07:46:11 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 31, 2011, 06:22:18 AMBeghin tends towards that very authentic playing style, and I think if your ears aren't ready for it, the lack of legato sounds a bit odd.

For myself, I think I'll be happy with 'a bit odd', Gurn. I bought the set primarily because I was intrigued by the nature of the virtual project, but also because it would give me a PI alternative to Schornsheim that really was significantly different, and not just 'another recommended set'. The bargain Europadisc price clinched it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 31, 2011, 07:51:55 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on December 31, 2011, 07:46:11 AM
For myself, I think I'll be happy with 'a bit odd', Gurn. I bought the set primarily because I was intrigued by the nature of the virtual project, but also because it would give me a PI alternative to Schornsheim that really was significantly different, and not just 'another recommended set'. The bargain Europadisc price clinched it.

Me too. One thing I particularly enjoy about the 5 complete box sets is that each of them has a very distinct personality. That, plus the Project aspect of it, really make a major attraction for me. Price didn't hurt, sure enough. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardCompleteBrautigamcover.jpg)
Ronald Brautigam - Hob 16_50 Sonata #60 in C for Fortepiano 1st mvmt - Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 31, 2011, 07:52:22 AM

Hey Gurn - yes, I did notice your absence here lately - hope all is well now - and a Happy New Year!

Last few days, I've been exploring the outstanding Beghin box (cover art from booklet below, left) - just an excellent lavishly illustrated booklet (nearly 100 pages); watched the film on the DVD yesterday (over an hour and a half) about the making of this project - what an effort and collaboration; for $35 this is pretty much a 'no-brainer' for Haydn keyboard fans!

Now listening to disc 5, Program 4, entitled Haydn's Workshop (ca. 1760-1771) - all on the clavichord (also shown below, right) - the acoustics are really wonderful on my den speakers - now I do not have a large number of clavichord recordings (despite liking the instrument), but I must say that his program is convincing and would likely be an 'eye-opener' for those not familiar w/ this keyboard, plus the video really goes into a lot of depth on the making and techniques of the instrument. Dave :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-VvHLkp5/0/O/HaydnBeghinBook.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-fVLC4r5/0/O/HaydnBeghinClavichord.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 31, 2011, 07:59:44 AM

Thanks, Dave, on the mend anyway. Not quite feeling 'struck-by-lorry' as I did Thursday. :)

Your mention of the programs reminds me that I hadn't quite thought to mention to people that listening to these the way thjat they are ordered on the CD's is an important part of the enjoyment. Of course, if you are actually listening to the CD's then that will work for you. But if, like me, you ripped these all to FLAC and stored the box away, you will likely have to take steps with your file structure to make it happen. It's worth the effort to follow his lead though. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 31, 2011, 11:16:15 AM

Part 31

1782

If you went back in a time machine to 1782, you could almost hear Bob Dylan in the background singing The times they are a'changin. I found this paragraph in a biography to be quite interesting;

"The conjunction with Artaria's founding in 1778 and Haydn's publication of music with them beginning in 1779–80 cannot be coincidental. The prince was losing interest in instrumental music; Haydn must have persuaded him to strike a compromise, whereby he remained in residence at court, continued in charge of the opera and drew his full salary, but was granted compositional independence in other respects, including the income from sales of his music. In addition, he began to market his music in other countries: in England beginning in 1781 with Forster, to whom he sold more music than to anyone except Artaria; in France beginning in 1783, selling Symphonies nos.76–8 (composed 1782) to Boyer and offering nos.79–81 (1783–4) to Naderman. (To be sure, certain works not composed for the court – for example, the 'Paris' Symphonies – were still performed, or at any rate tried out, there before being sent into the world, and others, such as the piano sonatas hXVI:40–42, were dedicated to members of the princely family.)" The New Grove Haydn

And thus we come to the symphonies of the present instance. As I have mentioned before, I am very fond of what ultimately became a set of 6. They are not theatrical pasticcios but are clearly intended for their potential audience, the public at large. As he wrote to Boyer in Paris when he offered them up for sale;

QuoteLast year I composed 3 beautiful, magnificent and by no means over-lengthy Symphonies, scored for 2 violins, viola, basso, 2 horns, 2 oboes, 1 flute and 1 bassoon – but they are all very easy, and without too much concertante – for the English gentlemen, and I intended to bring them over myself and produce them there: but a certain circumstance hindered that plan, and so I am willing to hand over these 3 Symphonies.

Collected Correspondence and London Notebooks &c Edited H.C.R.-Landon

We learn from this, as a sidelight, that he really was planning on a trip to London, but the likely thing as that the Prince quashed the idea. What he didn't quash that year were another Mariazellermesse, a much tauter affair altogether from his huge first effort. And then, another opera. Based on the famous Orlando story that had been a bestseller in Europe for a couple of centuries now, and the object of plenty of operas (including 2 by Vivaldi).

The music of 1782;

Hob 01a_16 Orlando Paladino: Sinfonia in Bb
   Manfred Huss / Haydn Sinfonietta Wien
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnOverturescover.jpg)

Hob 01_076 Symphony in Eb
   The Hanover Band / Goodman
Hob 01_077 Symphony in Bb
   The Hanover Band / Goodman
Hob 01_078 Symphony in c
   The Hanover Band / Goodman
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Goodman76_78cover.jpg)

Hob 16_34 Sonata #53 in e for Fortepiano
   Ronald Brautigam
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardCompleteBrautigamcover.jpg)

Hob 22_08 2nd Missa Cellensis
   Collegium musicum 90 / Richard Hickox
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Hickoxmasses.jpg)

Hob 28_11 Opera "Orlando Paladino"
   Concentus Musicus Wien / Harnoncourt Petibon / Gerhaher / Schade / Magnus
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnOperaOrlandoPaladinoHarnoncourtcover.jpg)

So, our Manfred has come through again with a nice overture to this year's opera. So all the opera non-listeners can get a taste anyway.

As for the symphonies, I decided for my own choice to be the perky readings of Goodman & Co. Despite my continued despair over their (and everyone else's) failure to record the next 3 and make the full set of 6. Ah well, we'll resolve that shortly. :) Anyway, the symphonies are essentially galant, which contributes to their popular appeal, of course. Of the 3, #78 in c minor retains the galant inner movements, but the outer movements are some good old c minor Stürm und Dräng. The entire trio make for a couple of hours of fine listening.

The e minor keyboard sonata, Hob 34 Landon 53, is in a style that reminds me of his S & D works of the 1770 era. In trying to find some info about beyond liner notes, I was surprisingly shut out. So I will just say 'try it, you'll like it'. Right now I have Brautigam's very nice version of it as my exemplar, but in re-listening to Beghin this morning, I am fairly certain that his version will fill this slot soon. Either way it is a win:win situation for me when they are both this good, And that does not even to mention Schornsheim.... :)

The 2nd Missa Cellensis (Mariazellermesse) Doesn't tend to sprawl the way the 1st one did. Not that the 1st one was bad, just huge! :o I like Hickox' version here and will stick with it despite having both Weil's and Burdick's excellent versions. You won't go wrong with any of those.

And then, there was Orlando Paladino. A dramma eroicomico based on a libretto by Porta, the Prince's own librettist. What it lacks in dramatic intensity (due to poor planning in the libretto) it more than makes up with in beautiful music. Being a relative newcomer to opera, even the best-planned ones sort of leave me behind unless they are well-explained to me, but the music is why I am there. And this music is nice! I have 2 versions of this, the old standby Dorati, and the choice here, Concentus Musicus Wien / Harnoncourt. Harnoncourt seems to have a special knack with opera, I always enjoy his efforts. Either way you will like it, I think. Plus, you can always Wiki up the story of Orlando, a major literary achievement of the time, and see what all the hooting was about. :)

OK, well that's 1782. As always, comment is very much welcomed.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on December 31, 2011, 11:31:08 AM

That E minor sonata was the first of his that I heard (and likely the only one I remember), and that last movement is quite memorable. The make of the fortepiano is not known, but it was a (recording of a) live performance by Hungarian artist Szekendy Tamás.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on December 31, 2011, 12:42:15 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 31, 2011, 11:16:15 AM
If you went back in a time machine to 1782, you could almost hear Bob Dylan in the background singing The times they are a'changin.

Last time I saw him in the flesh (about 2003), he did look about as old as that.

But then, he hadn't been well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 31, 2011, 01:21:55 PM

Quote from: Elgarian on December 31, 2011, 12:42:15 PM
Last time I saw him in the flesh (about 2003), he did look about as old as that.

But then, he hadn't been well.

Oh yes, I wasn't implying that Dylan needed the time machine... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 31, 2011, 04:32:02 PM

Quote from: Opus106 on December 31, 2011, 11:31:08 AM
That E minor sonata was the first of his that I heard (and likely the only one I remember), and that last movement is quite memorable. The make of the fortepiano is not known, but it was a (recording of a) live performance by Hungarian artist Szekendy Tamás.

I can't even remember the first one I heard, and it wasn't more than 15 years ago! I don't find a Haydn disk by Tamás on AMP, but I am judging that he recorded it on Hungaroton like the others I see (Brahms). I can't remember you discussing keyboard music very much; are you a fan of it? Thousands aren't, I know, so we do have someone to balance out George and Mandryka. :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardBeghincover-1.jpg)
Tom Beghin - Hob 16_48 Sonata in C for Clavier 2nd mvmt - Rondo: Presto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on December 31, 2011, 10:28:45 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 31, 2011, 04:32:02 PM
I can't even remember the first one I heard, and it wasn't more than 15 years ago! I don't find a Haydn disk by Tamás on AMP, but I am judging that he recorded it on Hungaroton like the others I see (Brahms).

It was an air-check of a recital with a couple of PTs and another sonata, IIRC.

QuoteI can't remember you discussing keyboard music very much; are you a fan of it? Thousands aren't, I know, so we do have someone to balance out George and Mandryka.

I am not a connoisseur of recordings, but I am known to like the tinkling by Bach (and his Baroque buddies, and Beethoven, Schubert, Chopin, Rachmaninoff, some Scriabin)! My username refers to No. 29, if you get the reference. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on January 01, 2012, 01:35:40 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 31, 2011, 11:16:15 AM

Hob 28_11 Opera "Orlando Paladino"

So:

Do you (or does anyboy) want me to make scans of libretto of Orlando Paladino and Armida? Or may be the notes would be sufficient?

Don't hesitate if you want.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 01, 2012, 01:51:30 AM

Quote from: mszczuj on January 01, 2012, 01:35:40 AM
So:

Do you (or does anyboy) want me to make scans of libretto of Orlando Paladino and Armida? Or may be the notes would be sufficient?

Don't hesitate if you want.

Speaking only for myself: I've downloaded your previous efforts but don't need those two (I have Harnoncourt's versions which came with libretti). Once again, thanks for your work. Much appreciated.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 01, 2012, 04:51:33 AM

Quote from: mszczuj on January 01, 2012, 01:35:40 AM
So:

Do you (or does anyboy) want me to make scans of libretto of Orlando Paladino and Armida? Or may be the notes would be sufficient?

Don't hesitate if you want.

Like all of us here, I am grateful for your efforts to date. Filled a big gap in my materials. Like Sarge, I have Orlando. However, I don't have Armida (I still use Dorati), so if you are up for it, thanks!

And a moment to wish all the Haydnistos a Happy New Year, filled with Peace, Prosperity & Great Music!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 01, 2012, 08:31:16 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on December 31, 2011, 07:46:11 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on December 31, 2011, 06:22:18 AM

. . . In any case, Beghin tends towards that very authentic playing style, and I think if your ears aren't ready for it, the lack of legato sounds a bit odd.

For myself, I think I'll be happy with 'a bit odd', Gurn. I bought the set primarily because I was intrigued by the nature of the virtual project, but also because it would give me a PI alternative to Schornsheim that really was significantly different, and not just 'another recommended set'. The bargain Europadisc price clinched it.

And as for me, I am already such a harpsichord music fanboy, non-legato style is already part of my steady diet.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on January 01, 2012, 08:36:29 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 01, 2012, 04:51:33 AM
And a moment to wish all the Haydnistos a Happy New Year, filled with Peace, Prosperity & Great Music!

And likewise to your goodself, Gurn, and everyone else. The Great Music aspect seems fairly well assured if past trends continue; not so certain about the Prosperity though!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 01, 2012, 09:44:34 AM

God bless us, every one!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on January 02, 2012, 12:01:17 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 01, 2012, 04:51:33 AM
However, I don't have Armida

So, here is Armida libretto and notes from the booklet of the EOC series:

http://www.4shared.com/zip/eFAI3_zU/armida.html

And english notes only from Orlando Paladino

http://www.4shared.com/zip/dAzgW6IC/orlanpal.html

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on January 03, 2012, 10:42:03 AM

I have, bit by bit, been acquiring the Festetics Quartet traversal of the string quartets and so far have made my way up through Op. 50 - and have enjoyed them very much. :)

I also recently added this disc to my keyboard holdings:

[asin]B001VLGMGI[/asin]

This is my first recording of Badura-Skoda and I now understand why so many Haydnistas speak highly of his recordings.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 03, 2012, 10:51:00 AM

Quote from: Arnold on January 03, 2012, 10:42:03 AM
I have, bit by bit, been acquiring the Festetics Quartet traversal of the string quartets and so far have made my way up through Op. 50 - and have enjoyed them very much. :)

I also recently added this disc to my keyboard holdings:

This is my first recording of Bakura-Skoda and I now understand why so many Haydnistas speak highly of his recordings.

:)

Hah! I knew you would like that one! Truly, he is in a class of his own when it comes to interpreting Classical solo piano music. His Mozart is equally satisfying. A couple of pages back (or maybe more by now) Antoine featured the covers of the disks he did with a more comprehensive traversal, for Astrée, IIRC. I would love to be able to find those for sale sometime. Meanwhile, I will enjoy this one. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on January 04, 2012, 08:00:16 AM

New Haydn release from Giuliano Carmignola & Orchestre des Champs-Elysées:

"Haydn: Violin Concertos" on Archiv Produktion

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on January 04, 2012, 08:07:16 AM

We want images!

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on December 16, 2011, 06:08:12 PM
I imagine I will be not the only Haydnisto interested in this new release:

[asin]B0062Z22DK[/asin]

It includes all the three violin concertos (Nos. 1, 3 & 4).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 04, 2012, 08:49:12 AM

What am I missing here?—

Quoteall the three violin concertos (Nos. 1, 3 & 4)

; )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on January 04, 2012, 09:41:33 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 04, 2012, 08:49:12 AM
What am I missing here?—

; )

It's not you, it's the concerto that is missing. The second one was lost.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 04, 2012, 10:34:14 AM

Thanks, Nav!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 04, 2012, 06:24:47 PM

Sorry for the brief hiatus; indisposition seems the order of the day in recent times. :-\

Part 32

1783
Haydn, however, took no breaks at all. Certainly not during the reign of the opera at Esterháza! This is a year of continued flowering of the career. Offers from publishers and other commissions were flowing in. And of course, music was flowing out into the world in return.

Some highlights that we will enjoy this year are the second cello concerto, a set of 3 sonatas for fortepiano, a second set of 12 German Lieder with Klavier, and his very last opera composed for Esterháza, the opera seria 'Armida'. No one knows why Haydn stopped writing operas after this. It was a big hit, with lots of repeat performances and great acclaim. He had been cultivating the form since basically 1766, and was very proud of his results so far. Nonetheless, only one more opera would issue from his pen after this one, and that was in and for England.

The music of 1783;

Hob 01a_14 Armida: Sinfonia in Bb
Manfred Huss / Haydn Sinfonietta Wien
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnOverturescover.jpg)

Hob 07b_2 Concerto in D for Cello
La Petite Bande / Kuijken Suzuki
Tafelmusik / Lamon Bylsma
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/CelloSuzukicover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/BylsmaHaydncover.jpg)

Hob 16_40 Sonata #54 in G for Fortepiano
Malcolm Bilson
Hob 16_41 Sonata #55 in Bb for Fortepiano
Bart van Oort
Hob 16_42 Sonata #56 in D for Viennese Square Fortepiano
Tom Beghin
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardBilsonSchantzcover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardSonatasCompleteBrilliantcover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardBeghincover-1.jpg)

Hob 26a_13 Lied for Voice & Keyboard 'Jeder meint, der Gegenstand'
Hob 26a_14 Lied for Voice & Keyboard 'Lachet nicht, Mädchen'
Hob 26a_15 Lied for Voice & Keyboard 'O liebes Mädchen, höre mich'
Hob 26a_16 Lied for Voice & Keyboard 'Gegenliebe'
Hob 26a_17 Lied for Voice & Keyboard 'Geistliches Lied'
Hob 26a_18 Lied for Voice & Keyboard 'Auch die sprödeste der Schönen'
Hob 26a_19 Lied for Voice & Keyboard 'O fliess, ja wallend fliess in Zähren'
Hob 26a_20 Lied for Voice & Keyboard 'Zufriedenheit' (Contentment)
Hob 26a_21 Lied for Voice & Keyboard 'Das Leben Ist Ein Traum'
Hob 26a_22 Lied for Voice & Keyboard 'Lob Der Faulheit'
Hob 26a_23 Lied for Voice & Keyboard 'Minna'
Hob 26a_24 Lied for Voice & Keyboard 'Auf Meines Vaters Grab'
Elly Ameling / Jörg Demus
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnAmelingDemusSongscover.jpg)

Hob 28_12 Opera "Armida"
Chamber Orchestra of Lausanne / Dorati Norman / Ahnsjö / Burrowes / Ramey / Rolfe Johnson
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnDoratiOperascover01.jpg)

As always lately, we start out with the standalone publication of the overture for this year's opera, Armida, once again ably provided by our Herr Huss and friends. As I always do, I remind our non-operatic friends of what a nice pair of disks this is, which allow a taste of Haydn's opera prowess without the rest of it. :)

As it was with Cello Concerto #1 in C, so it is with #2 in D; I really was not able to make a choice between the 2 versions listed here, since I think that having both is worth your while. And that's not to mention the lovely version by Queyras and the Freiburger's on Harmonia Mundi:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnQueyrascover.jpg)

This set of 3 sonatas was composed as a set of three and published the following year. I have chosen three different styles, three different keyboards, and so a nice variety. I particularly like Beghin's Viennese Square Piano in this work. Of course, with all the great players out there, you can scarcely go wrong no matter the combination you choose. Even if it combines just 1 player... :)

This second set of Lieder mit Klavier is most attractive. Not being a German speaker, I can't tell that the quality of the poetry is allegedly not up to the same standard as the first set. The quality of the music is though. This set, a classic by Ameling and Demus, I got in the Big Box, but lacking that, you can not only find the original disks on Phillips, the box that I pictured (licensed by Brilliant) or, if you have an SACD player, Pentatone have remastered the entire in what I am told is wonderful sound.

Finally, Armida. I am still listening to the Dorati with little to complain about, but I recently ordered and haven't yet received, the set by Harnoncourt featuring Cecelia Bartoli and one of my favorite tenors, Christoph Prégardien. I am looking forward to this, as I understand the playing of the Concentus Musicus here is even above their usual standards.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51yNW4VB-BL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

So, there is 1783. A good year for music. I could sit and listen to this year over and over. In fact, I have... :D

All feedback welcomed. Enjoy the music. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 05, 2012, 08:30:42 AM

Concerning the Violin Concertos, I have just one recording on Brilliant w/ Federico Guglielmo, so will be quite interested in the comments on Carmignola who I have on other non-Haydn performances.

As I was looking at reviews of the two discs mentioned, I noticed the Naxos release which gleamed nearly all 5* reviews, so yet another consideration possibly - would not mind a second recording of these works! :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51o7QZia8ML._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51zKj2Xo7vL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61qE4PNGcVL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 05, 2012, 08:50:13 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 04, 2012, 06:24:47 PM

This second set of Lieder mit Klavier is most attractive. Not being a German speaker, I can't tell that the quality of the poetry is allegedly not up to the same standard as the first set. The quality of the music is though. This set, a classic by Ameling and Demus, I got in the Big Box, but lacking that, you can not only find the original disks on Phillips, the box that I pictured (licensed by Brilliant) or, if you have an SACD player, Pentatone have remastered the entire in what I am told is wonderful sound.

All feedback welcomed. Enjoy the music. :)

Well, excellent comments and suggestions again, Gurn.

Regarding the Pentatone set, I concur: its sound quality is wonderful and quite superior to the Brilliant set. Anyway, you don't need a SACD player because it's a set of hybrid discs, so you only need your regular CD player. Very strongly recommended, indeed, even if you have previous incarnations of the same recordings. :)

(http://www.musebaroque.fr/images/cd/haydn_ameling.jpg)

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on January 05, 2012, 10:02:41 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 05, 2012, 08:50:13 AM
Well, excellent comments and suggestions again, Gurn.

Regarding the Pentatone set, I concur: its sound quality is wonderful and quite superior to the Brilliant set. Anyway, you don't need a SACD player because it's a set of hybrid discs, so you only need your regular CD player. Very strongly recommended, indeed, even if you have previous incarnations of the same recordings. :)

(http://www.musebaroque.fr/images/cd/haydn_ameling.jpg)

:)

I just received this and I'm excited to dig in soon,as the combination of Haydn and Ameling sounds wonderful.

Thanks Gurn and all here for this ongoing discussion!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 05, 2012, 10:06:50 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 05, 2012, 08:30:42 AM
Concerning the Violin Concertos, I have just one recording on Brilliant w/ Federico Guglielmo, so will be quite interested in the comments on Carmignola who I have on other non-Haydn performances.

As I was looking at reviews of the two discs mentioned, I noticed the Naxos release which gleamed nearly all 5* reviews, so yet another consideration possibly - would not mind a second recording of these works! :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51o7QZia8ML._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51zKj2Xo7vL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61qE4PNGcVL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Lots of good options in these works, Dave. The ones you featured, and this one here:
[asin]B00004TQQS[/asin]

and then Standage:
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/b8/83/84aaa2c008a034c37dc32010.L.jpg)

Probably lots more too, seems like whenever I start looking at these I end up with 'Oh, that's right, I have that one too...". :)

I want to hear what Carmignola has to say though, he is one of the finest fiddlers around. :)

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 05, 2012, 08:50:13 AM
Well, excellent comments and suggestions again, Gurn.

Regarding the Pentatone set, I concur: its sound quality is wonderful and quite superior to the Brilliant set. Anyway, you don't need a SACD player because it's a set of hybrid discs, so you only need your regular CD player. Very strongly recommended, indeed, even if you have previous incarnations of the same recordings. :)

(http://www.musebaroque.fr/images/cd/haydn_ameling.jpg)

:)

Thanks, Antoine. I might just go after that Pentatone set myself once things have settled out. There really are very few complete sets of the 2nd Deutsch Lieder mit Klavier, unlike the first cycle. I am using Ameling/Demus for other, later songs too, so nice sound for all of them is in order. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on January 05, 2012, 10:30:05 AM

By the way, the London Haydn Quartet does it again in their Op.20 account...absolutely stunning sonics and performances! Wow!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on January 05, 2012, 11:10:16 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 05, 2012, 08:30:42 AM
Concerning the Violin Concertos, I have just one recording on Brilliant w/ Federico Guglielmo, so will be quite interested in the comments on Carmignola who I have on other non-Haydn performances.

As I was looking at reviews of the two discs mentioned, I noticed the Naxos release which gleamed nearly all 5* reviews, so yet another consideration possibly - would not mind a second recording of these works! :)

The Naxos-Haydn is an *awesome* disc; HMB's Haydn is every bit as good as his best Bach and Hadelich is going to be a major violinist soon and the disc shows why.

The Archiv disc is available on the MPE Player and Spotify. Only listened with one ear last night, on the computer: quite lovely.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 05, 2012, 01:51:44 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 05, 2012, 08:30:42 AM
As I was looking at reviews of the two discs mentioned, I noticed the Naxos release which gleamed nearly all 5* reviews, so yet another consideration possibly - would not mind a second recording of these works

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61qE4PNGcVL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Actually, the Naxos box set of the Complete Concertos is probably worth getting, if you're not Gurn. (It's not PI.)
[asin]B001NZA0GK[/asin]

Meanwhile, on another front, look what FedEx just dropped off at my door, with a bunch of other Naxos CDs (Respighi, Barber, Tippett)
[asin]B0000502AH[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 05, 2012, 02:31:56 PM

Quote from: jlaurson on January 05, 2012, 11:10:16 AM
The Naxos-Haydn is an *awesome* disc; HMB's Haydn is every bit as good as his best Bach and Hadelich is going to be a major violinist soon and the disc shows why.

The Archiv disc is available on the MPE Player and Spotify. Only listened with one ear last night, on the computer: quite lovely.

We have some agreement here:

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on November 20, 2011, 05:26:56 PM
I have von der Goltz/Freiburger Baroque Orchestra too and I think they really suck. I prefer - by far - Müller-Brühl and his people playing on modern instruments. BTW, his soloist Agustin Hadelich is a great violinist, who plays these concertos in the most virtuosistic way that I have heard. When I listen to those interpretations, I'm constantly thinking: "fatto per il luigi". ;D

In short, I would say: Wallfisch: beautiful tone and balance - Hadelich: impassioned and virtuosistic - Von der Goltz: boring - Guglielmo: chamber music.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 05, 2012, 02:59:47 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 05, 2012, 01:51:44 PM
Actually, the Naxos box set of the Complete Concertos is probably worth getting, if you're not Gurn. (It's not PI.)
Meanwhile, on another front, look what FedEx just dropped off at my door, with a bunch of other Naxos CDs [asin]B0000502AH[/asin]

In truth, I am so much in favor of this music that even if a performance choice doesn't suit me personally, I will favor it for someone else if that's what it takes to get them interested in it. I have well over 1000 Haydn CD's, so it is true, bolstering that number is not as compelling as it was when I only had a few here and there. :) BTW, I still have (and listen to) my first string quartets, the Kodaly's, which I bought one at a time as they were being released. 0:)

And on the picking up new CD's front, I ran across this today, and as it was slated to drop off the availability list, I made a minimal bid and won it:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnBarytonHungarotoncover.jpg)

Anyone familiar with? Other than the ubiquitous #'s 97 & 113, it also features the rarely performed #45 and 109. I figured for $6.99 "Like New", I couldn't really lose... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 05, 2012, 03:44:23 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 05, 2012, 02:59:47 PM
And on the picking up new CD's front, I ran across this today, and as it was slated to drop off the availability list, I made a minimal bid and won it:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnBarytonHungarotoncover.jpg)

Anyone familiar with? Other than the ubiquitous #'s 97 & 113, it also features the rarely performed #45 and 109. I figured for $6.99 "Like New", I couldn't really lose... :)

Hi Gurn - I've had that disc for years - in fact, my FIRST baryton recording! Can't remember 'where or when' I purchased the CD but enjoyed initially and remains in my collection despite adding MANY more performances on this instrument - guess that I like it! So a 'thumbs up' if you can obtain at the price desired - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on January 05, 2012, 04:18:33 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 05, 2012, 02:59:47 PM

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnBarytonHungarotoncover.jpg)

Anyone familiar with?
8)

My second baryton LP. I have listened to it once. This was the time when I bought too much Haydn. Never had a chance to relisten much of this. It was in 96-97.

But I had just opposite habits before. My first six records of Haydn were London Symphonies. One day I tried to listen to all of them. I didn't manage and had to listen to No. 104 next morning. I already knew them perfectly then. About 1980.

Not now.

These symphonies were for me absolutely perfect. Long strange trip. Does anybody know them?

http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-London-Symphonies-Nos-93-104/dp/B000084I3Y/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1325811675&sr=8-1

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 05, 2012, 04:20:44 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 05, 2012, 03:44:23 PM
Hi Gurn - I've had that disc for years - in fact, my FIRST baryton recording! Can't remember 'where or when' I purchased the CD but enjoyed initially and remains in my collection despite adding MANY more performances on this instrument - guess that I like it! So a 'thumbs up' if you can obtain at the price desired - Dave :)

Dave,
Oh, I did obtain it at that price. Time was so short (5 minutes left in the auction) that I didn't have time to research it before buying. I note the cheapest AMP price is <> twice what I paid, so I reckon by your report that I am pleased. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 05, 2012, 04:24:10 PM

Quote from: Leo K on January 05, 2012, 10:30:05 AM
By the way, the London Haydn Quartet does it again in their Op.20 account...absolutely stunning sonics and performances! Wow!

Hi Leo - I've enjoyed the first two Haydn SQ releases from this excellent group & the reviews were excellent, so I just went ahead and purchased the Op. 20 set assuming similar excellence - have just listened once and really enjoyed also - Hyperion as usual has done an outstanding effort in recording these string players.

Well, there was an excellent review on MusicWeb reprinted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=602501); however, I just received the Jan-Feb 2012 issues of the American Record Guide & Fanfare, and was rather shocked by simultaneous and independent negative comments made in both of these publications (for those interested, I've attached a summary of both reviews) - my first feeling is that neither of these reviewers are into this approach at all, particularly by some of their alternate recommendations - will be interested in the thoughts of others - hard to believe that the London Haydn SQ fell apart and did not know what they were doing on these recordings vs. their earlier superb efforts.

I plan to re-listen to these Op. 20 recordings soon and will be curious about the comments from others - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 05, 2012, 04:25:34 PM

Quote from: mszczuj on January 05, 2012, 04:18:33 PM
My second baryton LP. I have listened to it once. This was the time when I bought too much Haydn. Never had a chance to relisten much of this. It was in 96-97.

There is no such possibility. Clearly you were deluded at the time... :D

QuoteBut I had just opposite habits before. My first six records of Haydn were London Symphonies. One day I tried to listen to all of them. I didn't manage and had to listen to No. 104 next morning. I already knew them perfectly then. About 1980.

Not now.

These symphonies were for me absolutely perfect. Long strange trip. Does anybody know them?

http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-London-Symphonies-Nos-93-104/dp/B000084I3Y/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1325811675&sr=8-1

I have not heard those versions. The lone review there is highly praiseful. I also note that he says that #100 may be the best of the set. It is my favorite one, so that is attractive right there! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 05, 2012, 04:37:04 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 05, 2012, 04:24:10 PM
Hi Leo - I've enjoyed the first two Haydn SQ releases from this excellent group & the reviews were excellent, so I just went ahead and purchased the Op. 20 set assuming similar excellence - have just listened once and really enjoyed also - Hyperion as usual has done an outstanding effort in recording these string players.

Well, there was an excellent review on MusicWeb reprinted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=602501); however, I just received the Jan-Feb 2012 issues of the American Record Guide & Fanfare, and was rather shocked by simultaneous and independent negative comments made in both of these publications (for those interested, I've attached a summary of both reviews) - my first feeling is that neither of these reviewers are into this approach at all, particularly by some of their alternate recommendations - will be interested in the thoughts of others - hard to believe that the London Haydn SQ fell apart and did not know what they were doing on these recordings vs. their earlier superb efforts.

I plan to re-listen to these Op. 20 recordings soon and will be curious about the comments from others - Dave :)

Well, that was interesting. The first review was written by someone who likes period string playing (but is woefully ignorant about it). In the sense that it reflects some of my own opinions, I essentially agree with it. The second one is written by someone who does not like period string playing, and while I agree with the basic analysis (well, how can you argue whether repeats were taken?) I don't necessarily agree with his solution, which is that since this doesn't please, then one should throw period strings out the window and just go with modern. That's silly. Even if you don't want to go the Festetics route, the Mosaiques are more than capable of pleasing. It is a minor tragedy that the Esterházy Quartet only did #2 & 4. They are tops in those two works though. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on January 05, 2012, 06:17:54 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 05, 2012, 04:24:10 PM
Hi Leo - I've enjoyed the first two Haydn SQ releases from this excellent group & the reviews were excellent, so I just went ahead and purchased the Op. 20 set assuming similar excellence - have just listened once and really enjoyed also - Hyperion as usual has done an outstanding effort in recording these string players.

Well, there was an excellent review on MusicWeb reprinted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=602501); however, I just received the Jan-Feb 2012 issues of the American Record Guide & Fanfare, and was rather shocked by simultaneous and independent negative comments made in both of these publications (for those interested, I've attached a summary of both reviews) - my first feeling is that neither of these reviewers are into this approach at all, particularly by some of their alternate recommendations - will be interested in the thoughts of others - hard to believe that the London Haydn SQ fell apart and did not know what they were doing on these recordings vs. their earlier superb efforts.

I plan to re-listen to these Op. 20 recordings soon and will be curious about the comments from others - Dave :)

I have to wonder why these period recordings are assigned to reviewers who are so ignorant as to write this kind of thing: "the sad fact is that we know very little about what the sound of an ensemble of that time would have been." But I am not surprised that reviewers at the ARG have a tendency to not like PI performances, taking their cue from the editor himself who is unthrottled in his hatred of all things HIP.

These guys could not even agree on the intonation, which is usually the complaint de jure of those forced to review a PI disc. But since I have not heard these recordings, I cannot comment more particularly about these reviews other than to say that I wish the publications would have chosen reviewers who do not come to the task with a negative bias towards the whole HIP enterprise.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on January 06, 2012, 03:50:10 AM

I'm just poking my head over the parapet to say that I've been listening to the Thomas Fey Paris symphonies, and - without making any big deal out of it - being vaguely disappointed. So far I haven't found myself supercharged with electricity: just a few mild tinglings. Certainly I feel I miss the period strings; altogether these seem - I keep on using these words because I know no others - a bit polite and smooth.

I'm going to go back to Kuijken and see how I find those. It may be that I'm just not very receptive right now.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 06, 2012, 03:55:32 AM

The phrase "rarely played" must surely qualify as redundant when applied to the baryton works, yes? ; )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 06, 2012, 03:56:18 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on January 06, 2012, 03:50:10 AM
I'm going to go back to Kuijken and see how I find those. It may be that I'm just not very receptive right now.

Maybe you need a Sibelius Fourth jolt, Alan . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 06, 2012, 04:13:00 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on January 06, 2012, 03:50:10 AM
I'm just poking my head over the parapet to say that I've been listening to the Thomas Fey Paris symphonies, and - without making any big deal out of it - being vaguely disappointed. So far I haven't found myself supercharged with electricity: just a few mild tinglings. Certainly I feel I miss the period strings; altogether these seem - I keep on using these words because I know no others - a bit polite and smooth.

:o

Well, compared to his recordings of the earlier numbered symphonies (e.g., 39, 54) his Paris symphonies come across more "big band"--which isn't historically out of place (Paris had a large orchestra). I'd hardly call the readings polite though. Fey really brings out the dissonance and drama in, for example, the Bear's first movement. But I accept the fact that you have a different set of ears ;)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 06, 2012, 04:15:02 AM

OTOH, compared to the Sibelius Fourth, any Haydn will sound polite. I withdraw the suggestion, Alan . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 06, 2012, 04:21:44 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 06, 2012, 04:15:02 AM
OTOH, compared to the Sibelius Fourth, any Haydn will sound polite. I withdraw the suggestion, Alan . . . .

And then there's the question: in Haydn, other than those instances when he's being intentionally vulgar, should it ever be anything but polite?

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 06, 2012, 04:26:42 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 06, 2012, 04:21:44 AM
And then there's the question: in Haydn, other than those instances when he's being intentionally vulgar, should it ever be anything but polite?

Sarge

Polite is OK. It mustn't be carried too far though. It is not effete. My personal taste runs more to rowdy. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 06, 2012, 04:29:44 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 06, 2012, 04:25:10 AM
Yeah, when did polite bcome a dirty word? . . .

In the mid-19th century when music 'experts' dismissed most of Mozart and all of Haydn because they were too polite. Lacy rococo bon-bons. Polite in the sense used by Alan and myself, although maybe not by you, Karl, has always been a dirty word. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 06, 2012, 04:31:30 AM

Good morning, O Gurn!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 06, 2012, 04:31:51 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 06, 2012, 04:26:42 AM
Polite is OK. It mustn't be carried too far though. It is not effete. My personal taste runs more to rowdy. :)

8)

I'm listening to Fey's last movement of the Bear. Rowdy is a perfect word to describe his performance 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 06, 2012, 04:33:19 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 06, 2012, 04:29:44 AM
. . . Lacy rococo bon-bons.

You know, there's a place for lacy Rococo bon-bons, dadfrazzanabbit!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 06, 2012, 04:46:50 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 06, 2012, 04:31:30 AM
Good morning, O Gurn!

Back at'cha, Karl!

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 06, 2012, 04:31:51 AM
I'm listening to Fey's last movement of the Bear. Rowdy is a perfect word to describe his performance 8)

Sarge

That's good to hear, Sarge. I have the first 6 disks in that series and I always thought it had the potential to be the best MI series out there. Despite M's antagonism. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 06, 2012, 04:48:35 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 06, 2012, 04:46:50 AM
. . . Despite M's antagonism. :)

Oh, the tales that could use that for a footnote . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 06, 2012, 04:48:46 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 06, 2012, 04:29:44 AM
Lacy rococo bon-bons.

(http://www.fashionandbeauty.ro/pictures/article_18711.jpg)

Yummy...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on January 06, 2012, 05:08:51 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 06, 2012, 04:46:50 AM
That's good to hear, Sarge. I have the first 6 disks in that series [Fey] and I always thought it had the potential to be the best MI series out there. :)

8)

I have stayed away from it because, aside from the faves on this forum, most of the reviews I've seen were mixed, some fairly discouraging. But, that is not really why: 1) I am not in the market for a "hybrid" cycle, i.e. modern strings and HIP-ish approach. I have some of the the Jaarvi Beethoven and am not entirely sold, not to say that Fey in Haydn would be very much different from Jaavi in Beethoven, but my feeling was that there was something missing from the entire effort. 2) I already have four nearly all complete sets and between Hogwood and Goodman have performances that I am very happy with.

There's also plenty of Haydn I have yet to hear at all, and this takes priority over another group of the symphonies no matter how good they may be.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 06, 2012, 05:50:42 AM

Quote from: Arnold on January 06, 2012, 05:08:51 AM
I have stayed away from it because, aside from the faves on this forum, most of the reviews I've seen were mixed, some fairly discouraging. But, that is not really why: 1) I am not in the market for a "hybrid" cycle, i.e. modern strings and HIP-ish approach. I have some of the the Jaarvi Beethoven and am not entirely sold, not to say that Fey in Haydn would be very much different from Jaavi in Beethoven, but my feeling was that there was something missing from the entire effort. 2) I already have four nearly all complete sets and between Hogwood and Goodman have performances that I am very happy with.

There's also plenty of Haydn I have yet to hear at all, and this takes priority over another group of the symphonies no matter how good they may be.

:)

Nice summary of why I only got the first few disks and not the balance to date. The entire concept of "HIP-ish MI" does little for me. That said, I did enjoy the enthusiasm with which the band had at it. If more modern orchestras would approach Haydn with a bit less 'polish', he would benefit greatly and so would they. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 06, 2012, 06:00:12 AM

Have you heard the Cleveland/Szell recordings of Haydn, Gurn? Just wondering if you have a report from experience on these, in partic'lar : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 06, 2012, 06:13:51 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 06, 2012, 06:00:12 AM
Have you heard the Cleveland/Szell recordings of Haydn, Gurn? Just wondering if you have a report from experience on these, in partic'lar : )

No. They are probably as good as it gets in terms of post-Romantic Big Band Haydn. I have heard nothing but good about them from people who like that style. I'm just not one of those people. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 06, 2012, 06:34:50 AM

That's cool. All styles cannot be for all people. The thought makes me weep, when I consider the joys of Atonal Honking . . . but, there it is : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 06, 2012, 06:38:24 AM

I have a Szell / Cleveland CD with symphonies 92, 94, 96 and love it. The horns in particular are pure bliss.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 06, 2012, 06:44:08 AM

Aye, 'tis a good band.

(Cor, but I think of that wonderful Morecambe & Wise show, and "I've seen better bands on a cigar . . . .")

http://www.youtube.com/v/R7GeKLE0x3s

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 06, 2012, 06:45:31 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 06, 2012, 05:50:42 AM
Nice summary of why I only got the first few disks and not the balance to date. The entire concept of "HIP-ish MI" does little for me. That said, I did enjoy the enthusiasm with which the band had at it. If more modern orchestras would approach Haydn with a bit less 'polish', he would benefit greatly and so would they. :)

8)

I'm finally starting to branch out a bit and have ordered some Solti and Slatkin recordings of Haydn symphonies. I've always tended to avoid MI or hybrids which is why i hadn't listened to Fey until recently. There's such a spirited devotion to the music that Fey and his ensembles display that I find attractive, but I think overall I prefer the timbre of The Hanover Band.
I think I'll spend some time focusing on "modern" orchestras.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 06, 2012, 06:48:11 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 06, 2012, 06:38:24 AM
I have a Szell / Cleveland CD with symphonies 92, 94, 96 and love it. The horns in particular are pure bliss.

Myron Bloom led horns. Bliss is right.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 06, 2012, 07:04:32 AM

I've been trying to find reviews that describe Fey's Haydn as polite. So far I've been unsuccessful. Instead, what I read is:

"At their best these performances combine finesse, revelatory clarity of texture and a thrilling, dangerous adrenalin count. The first movement of No 47, braying, hollering horns to the fore, packs a terrific punch. When the recapitulation erupts in G minor rather than major, the effect is almost apocalyptic."

"In the Minuet [of 60] its bagpipe drones [are] raucously emphasized. Typically, too, the Presto fourth movement and whirlwind finale outdo all comers in pace and ferocity.

"In 61, even more than in No 60, the frantically paced finale is a dazzling circus act."

"This stupendous disc [83, 84, 85] contains simply the best recordings of these symphonies currently available

"Fey is always at his best in Haydn's symphonies with trumpets and timpani, where he can let the brass rip with uninhibited gusto, and that's just what he does in 86."

"This disc is simply stunning. Thomas Fey and his Heidelberg orchestra attack "The Bear" with unbridled ferocity and brilliance...There's no soft-pedaling here! Listen to the symphony's finale, to the uninhibited high spirits that characterize its folk-influenced themes, to the complete bravura Fey encourages his players to display (particularly the trumpets and drums)."

We each bring our own expectations, needs and ears to recordings. I'm not saying everyone is going to agree with me (or these reviewers). But those quotes represent what I'm hearing in Fey's performances.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on January 06, 2012, 07:12:58 AM

There is a point where there is too much "interpretation" for my taste.

This is my broad complaint with both Jarvi and Dausgard in the Beethoven recordings: too much dynamic contrast, too much speed; too much "surprising" articulation. I cannot help but feel that these conductors are going the extra mile to do something different for difference sake and realize a "HIP" performance based on these kinds of interpretive decisions.

So, the descriptions of Fey do nothing to make we want to invest in his recordings, although, these choices are never in cement.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 06, 2012, 07:28:57 AM

Quote from: Arnold on January 06, 2012, 07:12:58 AM
There is a point where there is too much "interpretation" for my taste.

This is my broad complaint with both Jarvi and Dausgard in the Beethoven recordings: too much dynamic contrast, too much speed; too much "surprising" articulation. I cannot help but feel that these conductors are going the extra mile to do something different for difference sake and realize a "HIP" performance based on these kinds of interpretive decisions.

So, the descriptions of Fey do nothing to make we want to invest in his recordings, although, these choices are never in cement.

:)

Ah, so it's you who like your Haydn polite :D ;)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 06, 2012, 07:31:37 AM

Quote from: Arnold on January 06, 2012, 07:12:58 AM
There is a point where there is too much "interpretation" for my taste.

This is my broad complaint with both Jarvi and Dausgard in the Beethoven recordings: too much dynamic contrast, too much speed; too much "surprising" articulation. I cannot help but feel that these conductors are going the extra mile to do something different for difference sake and realize a "HIP" performance based on these kinds of interpretive decisions.

So, the descriptions of Fey do nothing to make we want to invest in his recordings, although, these choices are never in cement.

:)

I don't know about Järvi or Dausgaard because I don't know their interpretation, but you exactly summarize my own opinion regarding Fey. At first (listening to some "Sturm und Drang" symphonies, particularly) his approach sounded fresh and exciting. But after this "surprise", it began to sound a bit repetitive and consciously intended to surprise. Then I began to think his performances like a bit "grotesque", exactly in the sense that you describe.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on January 06, 2012, 07:34:06 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 06, 2012, 07:28:57 AM
Ah, so it's you who like your Haydn polite :D ;)

Sarge

There is much territory between "polite" and (to use Antoine's word) "grotesque" which is where the Golden Mean is found, IMO.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 06, 2012, 07:37:56 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 06, 2012, 07:31:37 AM
Then I began to think his performances like a bit "grotesque", exactly in the sense that you describe.

Of course I understand and value others opinions, but I don't think I've associated the word "grotesque" with any Haydn performance. But then again there are many recordings I haven't heard.

What about some of the Adagios or Menuets from Fey? I find them quite lovely.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 06, 2012, 07:42:18 AM

Quote from: Arnold on January 06, 2012, 07:34:06 AM
There is much territory between "polite" and (to use Antoine's word) "grotesque"

Oh, an entire planet's worth of real estate between those descriptors, I should have thought! : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 06, 2012, 08:00:09 AM

Quote from: Arnold on January 06, 2012, 07:34:06 AM
There is much territory between "polite" and (to use Antoine's word) "grotesque" which is where the Golden Mean is found, IMO.

But, heavens, why would you want to hear Haydn only one way, and the average way at that? Are you blonde by any chance? Have you ever met a family of bears? ;)

What I revel in are the differences between conductors: what each can tell me about Haydn's music; how eternally fresh and miraculous and different it can be. I appreciate the extremes; helps me listen with fresh ears--and after listening to Haydn for over forty years now, a little grotesque is quite refreshing :D

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 06, 2012, 07:31:37 AM
But after this "surprise", it began to sound a bit repetitive and consciously intended to surprise.

I suppose I might feel the same way if Fey were the only Haydn conductor I listened to. But he isn't. I don't overdose on anyone, not even my beloved Szell. So Fey stays fresh...and surprising-

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 06, 2012, 08:05:06 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 06, 2012, 08:00:09 AM
What I revel in are the differences between conductors: what each can tell me about Haydn's music; how eternally fresh and miraculous and different it can be. I appreciate the extremes; helps me listen with fresh ears--and after listening to Haydn for over forty years now, a little grotesque is quite refreshing :D

This. (Incidentally, this must also hinge upon the reason why I find unthinkable the idea that, for instance, a single Soviet-era conductor should own the music of a certain Soviet-era composer.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on January 06, 2012, 08:08:31 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 06, 2012, 08:00:09 AM
But, heavens, why would you want to hear Haydn only one way, and the average way at that? Are you blonde by any chance? Have you ever met a family of bears? ;)

What I revel in are the differences between conductors: what each can tell me about Haydn's music; how eternally fresh and miraculous and different it can be. I appreciate the extremes; helps me listen with fresh ears--and after listening to Haydn for over forty years now, a little grotesque is quite refreshing :D

I suppose I might feel the same way if Fey were the only Haydn conductor I listened to. But he isn't. I don't overdose on anyone, not even my beloved Szell. So Fey stays fresh...and surprising-

Sarge

However, I never said I wanted to hear Haydn only one way; what I said was that there are a few ways I do not enjoy to hear Haydn played. "Polite" is one, and "exaggerated" is another of those ways. ;)

But since I have not, in fact, heard any of Mr. Fey's recordings, and only read descriptions of them, I cannot for sure say that his performances fall into either of those extremes. But I can guess that his fall close to the "exaggerated" kind that do not appeal to me.

I can and do enjoy non-PI recordings, e.g. Dorati and Szell - so this is not merely an anti-MI opinion.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 06, 2012, 08:10:32 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 06, 2012, 07:37:56 AM
What about some of the Adagios or Menuets from Fey? I find them quite lovely.

I love them. Fey finds the emotional heart in Haydn. But some reviewers find them mannered and slow...too expressive.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on January 06, 2012, 08:25:34 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 06, 2012, 04:13:00 AM
:o

Well, compared to his recordings of the earlier numbered symphonies (e.g., 39, 54) his Paris symphonies come across more "big band"--which isn't historically out of place (Paris had a large orchestra). I'd hardly call the readings polite though. Fey really brings out the dissonance and drama in, for example, the Bear's first movement. But I accept the fact that you have a different set of ears ;)

Yes, I think it's (a) a matter of ears; but also (b) a special use of the word 'polite' which is a kind of shorthand that I've picked up from Gurn that I think is only indirectly to do with identifiable qualities such as dissonance and drama, having more to do with attitude. If I'd listened to Fey as my first foray into Haydn symphonies, I don't think I'd have gone any further - not because it isn't any good, but because it sounded too much (but not completely of course) like the 'old' Haydn I always thought I knew.

I listened to Kuijken's La Reine today, and the experience told me (a) that I am, as I thought, not quite in the right frame of mind right now; but also (b) give me Kuijken any day. These comments are purely personal responses though - I'm not capable of understanding, let alone articulating, the musical differences that I presume I'm responding to. I'm just talking, not imparting wisdom or even insight!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 06, 2012, 08:44:32 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on January 06, 2012, 08:25:34 AM
I listened to Kuijken's La Reine today, and the experience told me (a) that I am, as I thought, not quite in the right frame of mind right now; but also (b) give me Kuijken any day.

I bought a bunch of Kuijken recently (the Londons and the Chunnels) but, while I enjoy his performances, they never made me think: wow this is something thrilling and different (not like first hearing Solomons or Pinnock or Goodman or Norrington or Fey or Szell or Bernstein or Harnoncourt--all of whom wow'd me, and still do). Kuijken sounded, to use your phrase, like the same old Haydn to me, i.e., nothing new, nothing revelatory, and nothing I actually needed to invest in. In fact, of all the Haydn performances I own, Kuijken comes closest to being....polite.

Strange, isn't it, how we respond to the same thing so differently.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 06, 2012, 08:52:59 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 06, 2012, 08:05:06 AM
This. (Incidentally, this must also hinge upon the reason why I find unthinkable the idea that, for instance, a single Soviet-era conductor should own the music of a certain Soviet-era composer.)

While Rostropovich and Sanderling may be my favorite Shosty conductors, I do agree with you: neither one owns the symphonies (although Sanderling comes close with his Cleveland 15th :D ;)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on January 06, 2012, 09:45:08 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 06, 2012, 08:44:32 AM
I bought a bunch of Kuijken recently (the Londons and the Chunnels) but, while I enjoy his performances, they never made me think: wow this is something thrilling and different (not like first hearing Solomons or Pinnock or Goodman or Norrington or Fey or Szell or Bernstein or Harnoncourt--all of whom wow'd me, and still do). Kuijken sounded, to use your phrase, like the same old Haydn to me, i.e., nothing new, nothing revelatory, and nothing I actually needed to invest in. In fact, of all the Haydn performances I own, Kuijken comes closest to being....polite.

Strange, isn't it, how we respond to the same thing so differently.

I think a partial answer may lie in the fact that you have long and deep acquaintance with Haydn, whereas I'm a mere Haydnistic tyro with a bee in his bonnet (verging on neurosis) about rock&roll in the classical and baroque periods. If I'd listened to as many different interpretations as you have, Sarge, then maybe I'd be less impressed by Kuijken? I really can't say. Too many variables for us to be able to resolve the issue!

Afterthought: I should say though that I don't find the same degree of rock&roll in Kuijken's Paris symphs as I do in Pinnock's Sturm&Drangs. Of course that may merely mean that I'm less of a fan of the Paris symphonies. (Sometimes, the hugeness of the quantity of things I neither know nor understand seems overwhelming.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 06, 2012, 12:57:56 PM

Quote from: Elgarian on January 06, 2012, 09:45:08 AM
I think a partial answer may lie in the fact that you have long and deep acquaintance with Haydn, whereas I'm a mere Haydnistic tyro with a bee in his bonnet (verging on neurosis) about rock&roll in the classical and baroque periods. If I'd listened to as many different interpretations as you have, Sarge, then maybe I'd be less impressed by Kuijken? I really can't say. Too many variables for us to be able to resolve the issue!

Afterthought: I should say though that I don't find the same degree of rock&roll in Kuijken's Paris symphs as I do in Pinnock's Sturm&Drangs. Of course that may merely mean that I'm less of a fan of the Paris symphonies. (Sometimes, the hugeness of the quantity of things I neither know nor understand seems overwhelming.)

I don't know, my own experience probably lies between yours and Sarge's. I didn't really start seriously listening to Haydn as an adult until <>20 years ago, by which time Sarge had 30 or more already in the can. But I can base my feeling about this strictly in my experience with composers in general.

Which is basically that the intangibles of a performance add up to the allure. The thing I laugh at when I read a review is that beyond the actual performance, the reviewer has facts and figures (like tempi, repeats etc) that he can objectively compare, and even a history of listening experience for that work through different performances and styles. However, when it comes down to the bottom line, he is no more able to describe what the appeal is of a performance than Alan's 'rock 'n roll' or my 'it makes me grin' descriptor. It may sound more enlightened because of a higher mastery of descriptive rhetoric, but in the end it isn't saying more than "I liked it" or "I thought it sucked". So you know, I don't worry about it. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 06, 2012, 06:10:31 PM

Part 33

1784

A real year of flowering out. Commissions poured in from abroad, recent works were published and distributed, and personal life got suddenly more personal with the friendship between him and Mozart. In that year, he joined the Freemasons (although wasn't active afterwards), and spent a fair amount of his Vienna time with Mozart. It is the year of Michael Kelly's famous "Quartet Party" (First Violin: Haydn – Second Violin: Dittersdorf – Cello: Vanhal – Tenor (Viola: Mozart). And of Mozart's composition of the "Haydn Quartets" (K 465 completed Jan 1785).

We see a return (finally) to the keyboard trio (accompanied sonata). This seems to have been strictly a 'for profit' venture. Haydn had offered to write either a set of piano sonatas or a set of trios for Artaria, and the trios were chosen. Of course, one sells 3 sets of parts to the amateur social musician trade with trios... :)

Here also appear (written for England) the 6 divertimentos for Flute (or Violin), Flute & Cello which we saw a few years ago as part of the redistribution of the lovely music from Il mondo della Luna.

The music of 1784;

Hob 01_079 Symphony in F
Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra / Fischer
Hob 01_080 Symphony in d
Freiburger Barockorchester / Gottfried von der Goltz
Hob 01_081 Symphony in G
Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra / Fischer
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/FischerSymphoniescover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HMFreiburgSym80cover-1.jpg)

Hob 04_06 Divertimento á tre in D for Flute, Violin & Cello
Hob 04_07 Divertimento á tre in G for Flute, Violin & Cello
Hob 04_08 Divertimento á tre in C for Flute, Violin & Cello
Hob 04_09 Divertimento á tre in G for Flute, Violin & Cello
Hob 04_10 Divertimento á tre in A for Flute, Violin & Cello
Hob 04_11 Divertimento á tre in D for Flute, Violin & Cello
Ensemble Sans Souci Berlin
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnDivertimentiHob4cover.jpg)

Hob 15_05 Trio in G for Piano & Strings
Hob 15_06 Trio in F for Piano & Strings
Trio 1790
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/1790v3.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/1790v1.jpg)

Hob 16_47 Sonata #57 in F for Fortepiano
Ronald Brautigam
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardCompleteBrautigamcover.jpg)

Hob 26a_38 Lied with Keyboard – Der Schlaue Und Dienstfertige Pudel (The sly & obsequious Poodle)
Elly Ameling / Jorg Demus
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnAmelingDemusSongscover.jpg)

We see this year the second group of three symphonies that were composed originally as part of a set of six. The first three (Hob 76-78) went to Boyer in Paris, and the second three, those of the present group (79-81) went to Torricella in Vienna (who went bankrupt just then and sold them to Artaria) and to Forster in London. I am still very keen on this entire group, for whatever reason, and continue to be blistered by the unbelievable circumstance that two of them still haven't been recorded on period instruments! :o I know, I couldn't believe it either. That said though, I really do like the Fischer recordings presented here, and feel that if you can't go PI, you could do a lot worse than these. Fischer really is a good and worthy set (for MI :D ).

There are a good selection of these little Divertimenti á tre. Although I have yet to see one in the version with 2 flutes and cello. Here are two of them, one which I don't have and one which I do:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/417E6B0WC9L.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/51NAVsvb9IL-1.jpg)

I have heard the Kuijkens and of course they are fabulous, and I have the Schönbrunn's and they are also very good. I finally settled on the Ensemble Sans Souci simply because they have a very buoyant and lighthearted take that is most suitable to the music, IMO. I don't see how any of them could lead you wrong, nor also the Ensemble Agora disk which I know nothing about except that it has been well reviewed.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/51KjP2BuUc9L.jpg)

Now comes one of my favorite streaks of keyboard trios, Hob 5 & 6 of 1784 followed in 1785 by 7-10. To me the melodic invention in this group is boundless. I think that Haydn discovered in himself a great facility to work with this particular ensemble (which I have heard to be difficult due to the balancing of instrumental weights). Anyone who falls prey to that old canard about Haydn essentially just writing piano sonatas with a string here and there is in for a surprise if he listened to these with a truly open mind and a real understanding of what other composers have done. The two things that come out of this for me; how damned good were the amateurs of those days? And how wonderfully well a fortepiano blends in with the strings. There is no holding back (or need to) and the keyboardist can just let it rip. And that's what Trio 1790 do in these works. Yes, there are others, I know, I have damn near all of them. But these are ... just right! They rock 'n roll.... :D

For the lovely late keyboard sonata in F major, I have chosen Brautigam. His style fits well with this work, and I think he makes the most of it. YMMV though. :)

And now a little standalone Lied. I like this story, I believe it is true. It has been told for 225 years so maybe it is. As an aside, the translation from the German that I had from Hoboken was "The Sly and Obsequious Poodle", which adjectives are perhaps chosen to be less than complimentary. But in looking for an online copy of the story to save me typing it all out, I happened upon it at a poodle lover's website, where the translation is a much more laudatory "The Clever and Zealous Poodle". I don't know which is correct, but in any case, here is the story, and maybe it shows a different side of The Man.

"The great Austrian composer, Franz Joseph Haydn, composed a piece of music about a poodle. In 1780, a military officer's daughter from the German town of Coburg wrote a letter to Papa Haydn, as the beloved composer was popularly known. (Coburg is now part of Bavaria, but then, it was the capital of the small duchy of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. One later member of the ruling family was Prince Albert, Queen Victoria's consort. His descendants changed the family name to Windsor, in reaction to anti-German feeling among the British people fostered by World War I.)

"In the young woman's letter, she told Papa Haydn how she and her lover, a young Captain, together with his Pudel and another friend, had taken a walk. The Captain had praised his dog's talents and offered a bet that the dog would be able to find a Thaler (a silver coin of some value, from which the English word dollar is derived) that he would hide under a bush. The friend accepted the wager. When the dog was not looking, the Captain hid the Thaler. Everybody then returned home. The captain then said to his poodle, 'Search, lost.' The dog took off immediately along the path where the party had taken their walk.

"In the meantime, by happenstance, a tailor, who was on a journey, had sat down in the shadow of the bush under which the Captain had hidden the Thaler. When the tailor saw the Thaler, he picked it up, and put it in his pocket. Soon thereafter, the Pudel arrived at the scene, smelled the Thaler in the man's pocket, and flattered the tailor. The tailor, delighted at having found within an hour both a Thaler and a fine Pudel, took the dog with him to his lodging in town. The Pudel watched over the tailor the whole night. But early in the morning, when the door to the room was opened, he snuck out with the tailor's trousers and brought them, with the Thaler still in the pocket, to his true master.

"This little adventure was set in verse with the title, 'Der schlaue und dienstfertige Pudel' (The Clever and Zealous Poodle). In her letter, the young woman asked Papa Haydn to set the verses to music. She described her limited financial means, and said that she had heard high praises of the composer's good heart. So, she wrote, she hoped that he would accept the Ducat (another coin) that she had enclosed, as payment for the musical composition. Haydn immediately composed the music, and sent both the manuscript and the Ducat back to the young woman, along with a letter of explanation. Haydn wrote that he did not want the young woman to think that he would only use his talent for monetary compensation, especially for someone as charming as she. So, he asked for a pair of knit garters instead. The ribbons in red and white silk with a painted garland of forget-me-nots arrived a while later, and Papa Haydn preserved them carefully amongst his other treasured possessions.

So. 1784. Another good year. The Legend grows...

As always, feedback welcomed.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 06, 2012, 07:50:25 PM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51I%2Bn0oN28L._SS350_.jpg)

Another great post, Gurn!

I noticed this recording of No.80 made your post for music of 1784, this is a fantastic disc. I really love No.80, I find it so unique. Its D Minor opening resembling Sturm und Drang and then into such a delicate B Flat Major Adagio. The Menuetto and Finale finish with a light and refreshing quality. The only other recording of No.80 I own is the Orpheus C.O. which I find to be quite good.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on January 07, 2012, 12:56:18 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 06, 2012, 12:57:56 PM
Which is basically that the intangibles of a performance add up to the allure.

Oh yes. And those intangibles can be very intangible indeed. I feel a story coming on:

Couple of years ago, I attended a blisteringly fine concert performed by the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment (mostly Handel and Purcell), and in the interval I approached one of the performers (still at her place, sorting something out) to say thank you. From the response, you might have thought I'd approached offering a chest of gold. I was whisked off to the dressing room and spent the whole of the interval talking to these lovely people, eventually emerging with my programme signed by every member of the orchestra (they'd been passing it around while I was engaged in chat).

Now the effect of that experience is not only intangible - it's indelible. I'd fight battles to defend the OAE. And when, last January, I noticed that Kuijken's Haydn Paris discs were recorded with the OAE, I clicked the Amazon 'Buy' button at something close to the speed of light. Yes, yes, I know that almost certainly none of the players I met were present at a recording made 20 years ago. And yes, I also know that the OAE is not a specific group of players, but an umbrella that covers a wide variety of particular performers. And yes, I know that if you asked me to determine which was which, on blind switching between an OAE recording and some other bunch of HIPsters, I couldn't do it. No matter. Art has never been, for me, just a matter of listening with ears or looking with eyes (and certainly not of passing some sort of test) - it's a matter of listening or looking with the heart too, and welcoming all the helpful associations that I can bring to bear. At the end of all discussion, the thing comes down to this human being, here, engaging with that piece of music, there, using whatever resources can be mustered to enhance and enrich the experience. I don't believe in a separate objective 'best' between Fey's and Kuijken's Paris symphonies. The only entities that count for anything, for me, are those we might call 'Sarge listening to Thomas Fey', 'Elgarian listening to Kuijken', and 'Gurn listening to [insert your favourite here]'. It's not a case of 'All must have prizes': it never was any kind of contest. Rather it's that 'All are a cause for celebration'.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on January 07, 2012, 01:00:48 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on January 07, 2012, 12:56:18 AM
Rather it's that 'All are a cause for celebration'.

Thanks for sharing that. :)

And if anything this forum and this very thread is living proof of the fact we enjoy music, and in this case Haydn's art, immensely - irrespective of the performance. :)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 07, 2012, 01:45:40 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 06, 2012, 06:10:31 PM
here is the story

Se non è vero, è ben trovato - but it might very well be. Sounds so much fiting in the era and Haydn's gentlemanish personality.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 07, 2012, 01:47:10 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on January 07, 2012, 12:56:18 AM
Oh yes. And those intangibles can be very intangible indeed. I feel a story coming on:

[...]

Wonderful, Alan! Thanks for sharing.

QuoteIt's not a case of 'All must have prizes': it never was any kind of contest. Rather it's that 'All are a cause for celebration'.

QFT.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 07, 2012, 04:40:41 AM

Nice.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 07, 2012, 04:53:41 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 06, 2012, 06:10:31 PM
I like this story, I believe it is true.

Hast seen the garters? : )

Quote from: GurnIt has been told for 225 years so maybe it is. As an aside, the translation from the German that I had from Hoboken was "The Sly and Obsequious Poodle"

Makes you wonder if the tailor had been Hoboken's ancestor . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 07, 2012, 05:21:12 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 06, 2012, 07:50:25 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51I%2Bn0oN28L._SS350_.jpg)

Another great post, Gurn!

I noticed this recording of No.80 made your post for music of 1784, this is a fantastic disc. I really love No.80, I find it so unique. Its D Minor opening resembling Sturm und Drang and then into such a delicate B Flat Major Adagio. The Menuetto and Finale finish with a light and refreshing quality. The only other recording of No.80 I own is the Orpheus C.O. which I find to be quite good.

Thanks, Greg. Yes, I really like that version and that symphony. We had a discussion recently about the violin concerto being a little lifeless sounding, but that certainly doesn't ecxtend to the 2 symphonies on this disk. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 07, 2012, 05:31:41 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on January 07, 2012, 12:56:18 AM
Oh yes. And those intangibles can be very intangible indeed. I feel a story coming on:

Couple of years ago, I attended a blisteringly fine concert performed by the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment (mostly Handel and Purcell), and in the interval I approached one of the performers (still at her place, sorting something out) to say thank you. From the response, you might have thought I'd approached offering a chest of gold. I was whisked off to the dressing room and spent the whole of the interval talking to these lovely people, eventually emerging with my programme signed by every member of the orchestra (they'd been passing it around while I was engaged in chat).

Now the effect of that experience is not only intangible - it's indelible. I'd fight battles to defend the OAE. And when, last January, I noticed that Kuijken's Haydn Paris discs were recorded with the OAE, I clicked the Amazon 'Buy' button at something close to the speed of light. Yes, yes, I know that almost certainly none of the players I met were present at a recording made 20 years ago. And yes, I also know that the OAE is not a specific group of players, but an umbrella that covers a wide variety of particular performers. And yes, I know that if you asked me to determine which was which, on blind switching between an OAE recording and some other bunch of HIPsters, I couldn't do it. No matter. Art has never been, for me, just a matter of listening with ears or looking with eyes (and certainly not of passing some sort of test) - it's a matter of listening or looking with the heart too, and welcoming all the helpful associations that I can bring to bear. At the end of all discussion, the thing comes down to this human being, here, engaging with that piece of music, there, using whatever resources can be mustered to enhance and enrich the experience. I don't believe in a separate objective 'best' between Fey's and Kuijken's Paris symphonies. The only entities that count for anything, for me, are those we might call 'Sarge listening to Thomas Fey', 'Elgarian listening to Kuijken', and 'Gurn listening to [insert your favourite here]'. It's not a case of 'All must have prizes': it never was any kind of contest. Rather it's that 'All are a cause for celebration'.

That is a great experience, Alan! Not hard to see how that sort of behavior on the part of musicians makes fans. And how that all too rare behavior on the part of fans makes a musician's life choices feel justified.

Upon reflection, the reason that I enter discussions of favorites whilst totally avoiding those of greatest's is precisely what you are saying here; I don't really believe int he entire concept of greatest performance. One of the reason's that I spent so much time in the preparation phase of these essays has to do with my inability to choose from among so many truly fine performances. In most cases I was able to struggle onward, but if pressed I could easily change my mind and go with the "loser"... :D Wait til you see MY list of Paris Symphonies....

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 07, 2012, 05:57:32 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 07, 2012, 04:53:41 AM
Hast seen the garters? : )

Makes you wonder if the tailor had been Hoboken's ancestor . . . .

Quote from: Florestan on January 07, 2012, 01:45:40 AM
Se non è vero, è ben trovato - but it might very well be. Sounds so much fiting in the era and Haydn's gentlemanish personality.

Well, the story was originally told by Haydn directly to A.C. Dies on May 12, 1806, and reported in Dies book "Biographical Notes on Joseph Haydn" which I have in translation in Haydn: Two Contemporary Portraits along with the Biographical Notice about (über) Joseph Haydn by Georg Greisinger. The story is much longer and more charmingly told there, but also ends in a tragic sort of way, as Haydn has the lady dying after sending the garters, as opposed to living happily ever after. In any case, it is a good story, and I prefer, like Florestan, to believe it entire. Haydn wouldn't lie, after all... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 07, 2012, 06:13:13 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 07, 2012, 05:57:32 AM
Haydn has the lady dying after sending the garters

~~Vedi Napoli~~ Garter Haydn e poi mori!...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on January 07, 2012, 06:16:27 AM

You all make this the best place on the internet :) Great posts here, truly engaging and fun too.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 07, 2012, 06:30:47 AM

Quote from: Leo K on January 07, 2012, 06:16:27 AM
You all make this the best place on the internet :) Great posts here, truly engaging and fun too.

8)

Merci, mon ami. And you help. :)

Quote from: Florestan on January 07, 2012, 06:13:13 AM
~~Vedi Napoli~~ Garter Haydn e poi mori!...

:D I smell an aria coming! ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 07, 2012, 06:42:29 AM

Quote from: Gurn Haydnstonhow damned good were the amateurs of those days?

Speaking of which, here are 3 questions for the knowledgeable music historian in you, dear Gurn.

1. Has Prince Eszterhazy ever suggested Haydn to change this or that score here and there? I suspect that he must have his own ideas about how music should sound.

2. What percentage of Haydn's compositions was dedicated to amateurs?

3. Back then, was it conceivable that one could passionately love music and listen to it without being able to read scores and play at least one instrument?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 07, 2012, 07:03:37 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 07, 2012, 06:42:29 AM
Speaking of which, here are 3 questions for the knowledgeable music historian in you, dear Gurn.

1. Has Prince Eszterhazy ever suggested Haydn to change this or that score here and there? I suspect that he must have his own ideas about how music should sound.

Yes. I haven't looked it up to refresh my memory, although I mentioned it in one of these essays, one from the early 1770's. He told Haydn to strike out a section of a symphony because it was just too much. IIRC, the exact symphony wasn't identified in that anecdote, but it was one of the late S & D's. I'm sure that wasn't the only instance, but I would be totally amazed if it was standard procedure though.

Quote2. What percentage of Haydn's compositions was dedicated to amateurs?

You say 'dedicated' but I am thinking 'written for'. So there may be some differences in intention.

Nearly all of the solo keyboard works and chamber works. Of the string quartets, the only ones actually composed for professional musicians are Op 71 & 74 which he wrote for Salomon's concerts.

As nearly as I can determine, the works for professionals are all of the orchestral (although probably excluding divertimentos), religious, operatic and large-scale oratorio works. For amateurs are all of the solo keyboard, chamber and divertimenti. Of course, this is a generalization, since any individual work could be an exception. Probably isn't though. :)

Quote3. Back then, was it conceivable that one could passionately love music and listen to it without being able to read scores and play at least one instrument?

Well, they didn't really have 'scores' in the sense that we use it. They had parts. When a symphony went from X to Y, it was as many sets of parts. IIRC, the first actual published scores are from the early 19th century.

Of course, what you are really asking is 'did you have to be able to read music'. Well, anyone who was a music lover at that time, I'm talking about our music, not folk music and the like, certainly could read music, and likely play an instrument. In that time, there was no 'middle class' as we think of it today. There were certainly wealthy families that weren't part of the nobility (although they would be trying for a patent of nobility as soon as they could afford it), but an absolutely essential part of the education of their children was music. It was a hallmark of culture in that society. I think it is extremely important to keep in mind that there is a huge dividing line on so many levels between what was normal in the 18th century and what was normal after, as a rule of thumb, the Congress of Vienna (1815). It is like 2 different worlds. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 07, 2012, 07:09:40 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 07, 2012, 07:03:37 AM
I am thinking 'written for'.

Yes, that's what I meant actually.

Thanks for the reply. I'll come back with comments later.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 07, 2012, 07:12:30 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 07, 2012, 07:09:40 AM
Yes, that's what I meant actually.

Thanks for the reply. I'll come back with comments later.

Don't threaten me! >:(

:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on January 07, 2012, 08:39:57 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 07, 2012, 05:31:41 AM
Wait til you see MY list of Paris Symphonies....

Ha! That'll be worth waiting for, Gurn.

Just to add to the confusion - for some reason I'm very taken with the legend (I don't know how close to the truth it is) that 'La Reine' is so called because it was Marie Antoinette's favourite. I know this is responsible for the fact that I listen to it twice as often as any other of the Paris symphonies, because I really, really like the idea that the experience I'm having here and now is one that Marie Antoinette shared. So the experience is musical, sure enough; but it's also trans-historical ('then as now') and trans-personal ('she and I').

Of course it's possible to try to separate art from life by attempting to squeeze out this extraneous stuff, and some folks will argue that's the truest and most fruitful road to take towards some pure aesthetic nirvana; which may be so for them, but it's not for me. Neither is it for you, Gurn (if your magnificent series of multifaceted posts is anything to go by).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 07, 2012, 09:02:53 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on January 07, 2012, 08:39:57 AM
Of course it's possible to try to separate art from life by attempting to squeeze out this extraneous stuff, and some folks will argue that's the truest and most fruitful road to take towards some pure aesthetic nirvana; which may be so for them, but it's not for me. Neither is it for you, Gurn (if your magnificent series of multifaceted posts is anything to go by).

Count me out as well. I don't even think it's possible to separate art from life. As Constantin Brâncuşi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantin_Br%C3%A2ncu%C8%99i) once said, art means not escaping from reality but entering THE reality.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 07, 2012, 09:23:00 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 07, 2012, 07:03:37 AM
Yes. I haven't looked it up to refresh my memory, although I mentioned it in one of these essays, one from the early 1770's. He told Haydn to strike out a section of a symphony because it was just too much. IIRC, the exact symphony wasn't identified in that anecdote, but it was one of the late S & D's. I'm sure that wasn't the only instance, but I would be totally amazed if it was standard procedure though.

This is exactly what I expected.

Quote
For amateurs are all of the solo keyboard, chamber and divertimenti.

That's great. I wonder how many amateurs today can tackle them. ???

Quote
Of course, what you are really asking is 'did you have to be able to read music'. Well, anyone who was a music lover at that time, I'm talking about our music, not folk music and the like, certainly could read music, and likely play an instrument. In that time, there was no 'middle class' as we think of it today. There were certainly wealthy families that weren't part of the nobility (although they would be trying for a patent of nobility as soon as they could afford it), but an absolutely essential part of the education of their children was music. It was a hallmark of culture in that society. I think it is extremely important to keep in mind that there is a huge dividing line on so many levels between what was normal in the 18th century and what was normal after, as a rule of thumb, the Congress of Vienna (1815). It is like 2 different worlds. :)

I'm not sure I can agree to such a sharp dividing line and say that prior to 1815 musical education was essential and after 1815 it wasn't so anymore. Especially in the German world, but by no means limited to it, a thorough musical education was the norm all throughout the 19th century and well into the 20th as well, as attested by the numerous writers, scientists and philosophers for whom music was an integral part of their education and life: Friedrich Nietzsche, Thomas Mann, Hermann Hesse, Werner Heisenberg to name but a few of the greatest were passionate music lovers and connoiseurs and music pervades all their writings.

Generally speaking I think the transition from a worldview to another takes much longer time than one year. Here's another question: when did the harpsichord fell out of use and was replaced for good with the piano? I don't think you can come up with a specific year; rather you can point to a transitional period of several years, even decades. Am I wrong?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 07, 2012, 10:31:24 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 07, 2012, 09:23:00 AM
This is exactly what I expected.

That's great. I wonder how many amateurs today can tackle them. ???

I'm not sure I can agree to such a sharp dividing line and say that prior to 1815 musical education was essential and after 1815 it wasn't so anymore. Especially in the German world, but by no means limited to it, a thorough musical education was the norm all throughout the 19th century and well into the 20th as well, as attested by the numerous writers, scientists and philosophers for whom music was an integral part of their education and life: Friedrich Nietzsche, Thomas Mann, Hermann Hesse, Werner Heisenberg to name but a few of the greatest were passionate music lovers and connoiseurs and music pervades all their writings.

Generally speaking I think the transition from a worldview to another takes much longer time than one year. Here's another question: when did the harpsichord fell out of use and was replaced for good with the piano? I don't think you can come up with a specific year; rather you can point to a transitional period of several years, even decades. Am I wrong?

I only have a moment for a quick reply here, I just wanted to stem any possible misunderstanding that I see developing (my fault). I wasn't going to say that at that point in time music education became less important; rather it became just the opposite. What I was intending to convey was that in the 18th century and before, this education was confined to a certain, very restricted range of individuals. However, in terms of evolutionary time, the changeover in the early 19th century was indeed very abrupt. The rise of the middle class and the sudden phenomenon (in Vienna at the very least) of virtually every home having a piano and some other instruments, only made music education more important and widespread than before. However, the adjunct areas, such as rhetoric and classicism which were the subjects of a well-rounded upper level education became less important, at the least in the sense of how music was tied in to them.

THREAD DUTY: this is one of the chief reasons why Haydn's music ceased to be understood for what it was and faded into insignificance. It was no longer being heard by the same people with the same values and knowledge for which it had been originally composed.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 07, 2012, 06:21:08 PM

Part 34

1785

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/MozartHaydn4tetdedication.jpg)

I find it hard to imagine that any praise from his Count, or a king or emperor, would have as much sweetness as this dedication by Mozart, the man who Haydn considered to be his only peer in the musical world. Despite the contemporary flowery language, even today the feeling between the two clearly shows up in this little paragraph (taken here from Collected Correspondence & London Notebooks &c) by H.C. Robbins-Landon.

And beyond his own front door, France came calling with a request for six symphonies for Paris. Three of them made it to paper in '85, the other three would follow next year.

The sole survivor of what Haydn said was a set of quartets destined for Spain occurs this year. It is the only 'single', and the smallest quartet in total measures, but it is a model of concision and pure concentrated musicality.

And the string of keyboard trios continues. Combined with the 2 from last year, they are a nice set of six now, Hob 5-10.

And now also a keyboard transcription of a set of minuets and trios. Such a blow that the original orchestrations haven't survived, but the keyboard reductions, so very popular at the time, at least have preserved the music. But a set that did survive, has unfortunately not been recorded (or at least not so you would be able to find them). Dances and Marches (Hob 9 & 8) are the great black hole of recordings.

And finally, a couple of more replacement arias for the lovely Luigia. Ah, love is grand! :D

The music of 1785;

Hob 01_083 Symphony in g
Orchestra of the 18th Century / Brüggen
Hob 01_085 Symphony in Bb
Concentus musicus Wien / Harnoncourt
Hob 01_087 Symphony in A
Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment / Kuijken
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnBruggenPariscover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHarnoncourtPariscover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/KuijkenPariscover.jpg)

Hob 03_43 Quartet in d for Strings Op 42
Quatuors Festetics
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnFesteticsOp33cover.jpg)

Hob 09_09 6 Allemandes (German Dances) for Flute, 2 Oboes, Bassoon, 2 Horns, 2 Trumpets, Timpani & Strings

No recording available. :'(

Hob 15_07 Trio in D for Piano & Strings
Hob 15_08 Trio in Bb for Piano & Strings
Hob 15_09 Trio in A for Piano & Strings
Hob 15_10 Trio in Eb for Piano & Strings
Trio 1790
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/1790v1.jpg)

Hob 17a_deest / 09_08 12 Menuets for Keyboard (w/Trio)
Bart van Oort
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardOortPiecescoverlarger-1.jpg)

Hob 24b_07 Aria for Soprano "Signor voi sapete" Rosina (Sop) - "Il matrimonio per inganno" by Anfossi
Hob 24b_08 Aria for Soprano "Dica pure chi vuol dire" Modesta (Sop) - "Il geloso in cimento" by Anfossi
L'Orfeo Baroque Orchestra / Gaigg Nuria Rial
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Rialcover.jpg)

The symphonies written for Paris. A hallmark of Haydn's career, and interesting a group of compositions as any by anyone. Here is a book that many might find handy and informative;
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/ParisSymphoniesBookcover.jpg)

Even though it presupposes a knowledge of music theory for about half of it (not too dense though), the remainder is interesting history. As for the music itself, here you will find my monumental inability to choose favorites at the fore. I have five full sets on PI (there are tons more on MI if that's how you roll). I listened to the entire five many times and ended up with essentially one from each plus one duplicate. You will be able to fathom the 'winner' in the next essay... :D Suffice to say, any or all of these are very pleasing performances.

For the d minor quartet, I'll follow the Texas tradition of 'dancin' with who brung me' and continuing the Festetics here. Sort of surprising that the Mosaiques didn't include this on their Op 33 (the usual procedure). It is the sort of a piece that is totally congruent with their playing style. So it goes. :)

If you were to want to get just one disk of the Trio 1790 set to see what they sound like, I couldn't make a stronger recommendation than Volume 1. With Hob 6-10 (5 trios!) it is jam-packed with goodness. Or maybe it's just me... nah, it's not just me. :D

Bart does a nice job with all of these piano reductions of the dances. We have Brautigam too, and he is no slouch himself, but overall, Bart's the man! It is not big music, but it is nice music. Easy to visualize the upper half whirling around the Redoubtensaal at Carnival. :)

And finally, the insertion arias for his sweetie. Both on works by Anfossi, a very popular favorite not only at Esterháza but throughout Europe. Beautiful little arias, nicely sung here by Rial.

So there we have it. 1785, another pearl in the string of great years for music.

As always, comment welcomed.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 08, 2012, 02:45:06 AM

Thanks so much for this!! It seems greedy to ask for more, but if isn't too difficult, it would be nice to have the last one as well. I feel grateful just to have these though, and will happily live with your effort thus far!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 08, 2012, 05:58:14 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 08, 2012, 02:45:06 AM
Thanks so much for this!! It seems greedy to ask for more, but if isn't too difficult, it would be nice to have the last one as well. I feel grateful just to have these though, and will happily live with your effort thus far!!

Thanks, Neal. You can have them all to date, and quite easily. Just click that little globe icon in my sidebar and it will bring you to an index that is also clickable. My earlier efforts were rather more obviously just beginnings, but the info is still good. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:

Cleveland Orchestra; Welser-Möst; Measha Brueggergosman - Kelley O'Connor - Frank Lopardo - René Pape; Cleveland Orchestra Chorus; Robert Porco
Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 1st mvmt - Allegro ma non troppo, un poco maestoso

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on January 08, 2012, 08:52:03 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 07, 2012, 06:21:08 PM
Hob 01_083 Symphony in g
Orchestra of the 18th Century / Brüggen
Hob 01_085 Symphony in Bb
Concentus musicus Wien / Harnoncourt

You're just trying to find more ways of making me spend more money, right?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 08, 2012, 09:13:05 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on January 08, 2012, 08:52:03 AM
You're just trying to find more ways of making me spend more money, right?

QuoteSuffice to say, any or all of these are very pleasing performances. :)

No, I'm not essentially a cruel man, mi amigo. I actually had only Kuijken for several years before getting any of the others and was very content. If you did want to try another viewpoint, I would suggest the two disks by Goodman. On Helios, they can be had for quite little (at least on this side). In fact, I find Brüggen to be a tad too deliberate in these, although others would be delighted. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 08, 2012, 01:41:32 PM

Since I don't get an opportunity to work on this project during the week, I am going to go ahead with the next installment now. Please feel free to comment or question, and enjoy the music!

Part 35

1786

When the Concerts de la Loge Olympique de Paris, at the instigation of le Compte d'Ogny, decided in 1784 to commission the famous Haydn to compose six symphonies for them, they probably were only vaguely aware of such things as the everlasting glory that would accrue to them. By 1786, when the second set of three were completed, Haydn's star was so far on the rise that people who successfully got a completed commission from him became themselves famous by reflection. For their (unheard of!) 30 Louis d'Or (including publication rights) per symphony, they got the 6 most progressive symphonies published in Europe to date.

But that was merely part of the year. The King of Naples requested 5 concerti for his pet instrument, the lira organizzata, a hurdy-gurdy relative that got it's big start in the courts of France. But the King was a Bourbon, so he, too, got his big start in the courts of France, so it was a natural, I suppose. Despite the fact that this was a rather limited instrument, Haydn was an all-in sort of fellow, and these 5 concerti (two this year, three next) were first rate enough that a few years from now he would replace the lira parts with flute and oboe and take them along to London where they were a popular hit at the Solomon Concerts.

Yet another major foreign commission of the year came from Spain. A Canon of the City of Cadiz asked Haydn to compose the music for Good Friday services. The result was the orchestral version of The Seven Last Words of Christ on the Cross, one of the singularly greatest and most famous pieces of Haydn's career. As this is the first of 4 eventual versions, we will hear more about it later. It is unquestionably my favorite version though.

And that hasn't even got yet to the lovely Adagio in F for Keyboard, nor yet to the cantata or replacement aria of the year... Definitely a great year, this one.

Music of 1786;

Hob 01_082 Symphony in C
The Hanover Band / Goodman
Hob 01_084 Symphony in Eb
Tafelmusik / Bruno Weil
Hob 01_086 Symphony in D
Concentus musicus Wien / Harnoncourt
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Goodman82_84cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnWeilSymphoniesboxcover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHarnoncourtPariscover.jpg)

Hob 07h_1 Concerto in C for 2 Lira (Naples Version)
Ensemble Baroque de Limoges / Quatuor Mosaiques / Coin
Hob 07h_2 Concerto in G for 2 Lira (Naples Version)
Ruf / Lautenberger & Nielen / Beyer & Berndt / Uhl / Koch / Hoffman & Irmscher
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Delirium.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnRealLiracover.jpg)

Hob 17_09 Adagio in F for Keyboard
Paul Badura-Skoda
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardBaduraSkodacover.jpg)

Hob 20_1 The Seven Last Words; Orchestral version
Le Concert des Nations / Savall
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Savall7lastcover.jpg)

Hob 24a_07 Cantata Miseri noi, misera patria (Recitative & Aria)
Chamber Orchestra of Lausanne / Jordan Edith Mathis
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnDoratiOperascover2.jpg)

Hob 24b_09 Aria for Soprano "Sono Alcina, e sono ancora" - for Lesbia (Sop) - "L'isola di Alcina" by Gazzaniga
L'Orfeo Baroque Orchestra / Gaigg Nuria Rial
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Rialcover.jpg)

The balance of the Paris symphonies are out there now. As I mentioned last year, I want to give the full range of PI possibilities. I can't possibly give the full range of MI possibilities, as these are among the most heavily recorded symphonies by anyone! But adding in these three, there is a representative of each of the five sets I have, plus the one with two numbers, Harnoncourt. I well remember when this set was introduced, it caused shockwaves of a sort among the critical establishment. It was a few years before I was able to see my way clear to acquire for myself, and after listening I thought 'what was all the to-do about?' It is a very fine set, much liked by myself, but hardly out on the radical edge, IMO. :)

The first two (of five) lira concertos. Versions using an actual lira are thin on the ground. I have included the #1 from the 'Delirium' disk, a very nice taste of what the original must have sounded like. The second version (and the one for the final three next year) is a classic version and the only one ever recorded AFAIK of all five concerti. It was licensed by Brilliant and included in the Big Box (man, that was a friendly gesture) but sadly there is little information provided about it there. Nonetheless, I am delighted to have it, it is very cool-sounding, there is not anything really else like it.

For the Adagio in F for keyboard, I decided on Badura-Skoda for a few reasons; I am a huge fan to start with, and for good reason, he is the Viennese fortepianist par excellence, and he is playing (his own) Schantz fortepiano, very likely the same kind as Haydn was using when he composed the piece originally. There are several other good versions out there too, I like Schornsheim, Brautigam and Oort all, but PBS has the certain something for me. :)

The same can be said about the orchestral Seven Last Words...; there are several good versions out there, but Savall's seems to transport you to the Cathedral of Cádiz in 1787 for the Good Friday service. You can smell the incense; if by chance there comes an earthquake, you'll fall right out. :) This version includes the written/spoken text just like Haydn's original. Fortunately, each is on its own separate track so you can optionally listen or not.

The Cantata Miseri noi, misera patria (Recitative & Aria) was composed in Esterháza, probably for the Esterháza prima donna, Metilde Porta. The text, by the very popular 18th century poet, Anonymous, concerns an eyewitness account of a major city being razed and burned by an unnamed invader. Lovely stuff. This cantata, in typical recitative & aria form, was unpublished until Haydn brought it to England with him, almost certainly to be performed at the Solomon Concerts. This version is in the Dorati Operas, a nice performance that you will like, I think.

And we close out this great year with another replacement aria, this time for an opera by Gazzaniga. Once again, the lovely Ms. Rial holds our attention with ease. I am beginning to suspect that her voice is probably better than the lady's for which the arias were originally composed. :)

So, 1786. We are really starting to get into the meat & potatoes Haydn now. It is highly likely that he is already the most famous composer in the world, and his best is yet to come!

As always, questions, comments etc, most welcome!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 08, 2012, 01:59:07 PM

I don't have that disc sung by Nuria Rial, but it's apparently mandatory, isn't it?

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Rialcover.jpg)

She is usually a lovely singer, the same as her contemporary Raquel Andueza, so I'm sold. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 08, 2012, 02:24:08 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 08, 2012, 01:59:07 PM
I don't have that disc sung by Nuria Rial, but it's apparently mandatory, isn't it?

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Rialcover.jpg)

She is usually a lovely singer, the same as her contemporary Raquel Andueza, so I'm sold. :)

Well, Antoine, I would have to say yes. These are lovely little arias, well-played and sung, and in addition, it is music that you are hard pressed to get elsewhere (although not impossible, but still, not as easily either!). Altogether a nice combination. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 08, 2012, 04:11:19 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 08, 2012, 02:24:08 PM
Well, Antoine, I would have to say yes. These are lovely little arias, well-played and sung, and in addition, it is music that you are hard pressed to get elsewhere (although not impossible, but still, not as easily either!). Altogether a nice combination. :)

8)

Well, I guess sometimes a man must do what a man must do. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 08, 2012, 04:24:46 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 08, 2012, 04:11:19 PM
Well, I guess sometimes a man must do what a man must do. :)

Yes, into every life comes one of those chores... :D

At least I am confident that you will like it. ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 08, 2012, 05:15:32 PM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/713ddjRaZML.jpg)

Recent purchase of another Haydn/Orpheus C.O. disc, my fifth now. Bought it mainly for "La Chasse" (I'm a sucker for those hunting calls, and Haydn symphonies that end quietly), and I'm impressed again with their performance. I find they produce a romantic quality to some of their symphony recordings (mainly in No.44 and No.45) and with No.73 they offer an interesting and enjoyable interpretation. Orpheus C.O. is in tough competition as I also have Harnoncourt, Goodman and Fey's "La Chasse" in my collection and they are all very good.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 08, 2012, 05:22:35 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 08, 2012, 05:15:32 PM
. [asin]B000001GLL[/asin]

Recent purchase of another Haydn/Orpheus C.O. disc, my fifth now. Bought it mainly for "La Chasse" (I'm a sucker for those hunting calls, and Haydn symphonies that end quietly), and I'm impressed again with their performance. I find they produce a romantic quality to some of their symphony recordings (mainly in No.44 and No.45) and with No.73 they offer an interesting and enjoyable interpretation. Orpheus C.O. is in tough competition as I also have Harnoncourt, Goodman and Fey's "La Chasse" in my collection and they are all very good.

That's a very nice disk, Greg, one of my very first Haydn disks other than London Symphonies (I got it from BMG Record Club before it was BMG Record Club... RCA?). I also got a couple more of theirs which are equally nice. Have to agree with you though, the competition in 'La chasse' is incredibly tough. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 09, 2012, 06:35:34 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 07, 2012, 10:31:24 AM
I only have a moment for a quick reply here, I just wanted to stem any possible misunderstanding that I see developing (my fault). I wasn't going to say that at that point in time music education became less important; rather it became just the opposite. What I was intending to convey was that in the 18th century and before, this education was confined to a certain, very restricted range of individuals. However, in terms of evolutionary time, the changeover in the early 19th century was indeed very abrupt. The rise of the middle class and the sudden phenomenon (in Vienna at the very least) of virtually every home having a piano and some other instruments, only made music education more important and widespread than before. However, the adjunct areas, such as rhetoric and classicism which were the subjects of a well-rounded upper level education became less important, at the least in the sense of how music was tied in to them.

THREAD DUTY: this is one of the chief reasons why Haydn's music ceased to be understood for what it was and faded into insignificance. It was no longer being heard by the same people with the same values and knowledge for which it had been originally composed.

8)

That's interesting. Let's see if I understand you correctly. Wiith the rise of the bourgeoisie, musical education received a boost while the accompanying rhetoric declined and faded away. Music was disconnected from the intellectual rigor of rhetoric and thus the "bourgeois sentimentality" made its appearance (I'm using both terms without any pejorative undertone). While in times past music was an affair of both "sense and sensibility", the Bourgeois Romanticism dropped the latter term. Music became more and more personal and sentimental and the cosmopolitan and restraint soundworld of the Classicism was replaced by the nationalistic and expansive one of the Romanticism (again, both terms used without any pejorative undertone). The ties with rhetoric were severed, but new ones appeared (or rather came to the front and gained primacy): with literature and painting.

Well, I guess this is generally true. But compared to Classicism, was it a decline or a progress? I'd say neither one. It was just something different. Both Classicism and Romanticism produced music of high quality and beauty and I wouldn't be without any of the two.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 09, 2012, 09:41:29 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 09, 2012, 06:35:34 AM
That's interesting. Let's see if I understand you correctly. Wiith the rise of the bourgeoisie, musical education received a boost while the accompanying rhetoric declined and faded away. Music was disconnected from the intellectual rigor of rhetoric and thus the "bourgeois sentimentality" made its appearance (I'm using both terms without any pejorative undertone). While in times past music was an affair of both "sense and sensibility", the Bourgeois Romanticism dropped the latter term. Music became more and more personal and sentimental and the cosmopolitan and restraint soundworld of the Classicism was replaced by the nationalistic and expansive one of the Romanticism (again, both terms used without any pejorative undertone). The ties with rhetoric were severed, but new ones appeared (or rather came to the front and gained primacy): with literature and painting.

Well, I guess this is generally true. But compared to Classicism, was it a decline or a progress? I'd say neither one. It was just something different. Both Classicism and Romanticism produced music of high quality and beauty and I wouldn't be without any of the two.

Yes, that's the way I read it. The social changes that came about after The Enlightenment served to change the focus of music from its pre-1800 status to an entirely different one. It was still a social status symbol, but it represented an entirely different group of people.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 09, 2012, 09:44:12 AM

First the piano trios. Then the string quartets. And now the piano solo works.

O Lord, have I been an Haydnista in denial, all these years? . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 09, 2012, 10:17:26 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 09, 2012, 09:44:12 AM
First the piano trios. Then the string quartets. And now the piano solo works.

O Lord, have I been an Haydnista in denial, all these years? . . .

All Haydn asks is a fair chance; he'll take it from there. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 09, 2012, 10:37:31 AM

Well, I do dig this Haus. The Adagio from the E^b Sonata (Hob.XVI:52) is exactly the sort of thing I never suspected Haydn wrote.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 09, 2012, 10:42:44 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 09, 2012, 10:37:31 AM
Well, I do dig this Haus. The Adagio from the E^b Sonata (Hob.XVI:52) is exactly the sort of thing I never suspected Haydn wrote.

The Adagio is very nice; the entire sonata kicks ass... 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 09, 2012, 10:51:38 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 09, 2012, 10:42:44 AM
The Adagio is very nice; the entire sonata kicks ass... 0:)

8)

Well, then: no wonder that I am listening to disc 12 first! : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on January 09, 2012, 10:55:58 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 09, 2012, 09:41:29 AM
Yes, that's the way I read it. The social changes that came about after The Enlightenment served to change the focus of music from its pre-1800 status to an entirely different one. It was still a social status symbol, but it represented an entirely different group of people.

One can take a similar overview of what was happening in the visual arts. Post 1800, the humble watercolour (derided as a medium for amateurs and mere topographical draughtsmen) became the affordable choice for the steadily growing group of middle classes. Oil painting remained the medium of prestige for portraits of artistocrats and Grand History paintings, but by 1830 in England the Old Watercolour Society was selling picturesque landscapes, to an entirely new clientele, and selling them like hot cakes. As you say Gurn - a whole new bunch of people were suddenly calling the shots.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on January 09, 2012, 11:00:43 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 09, 2012, 10:37:31 AM
Well, I do dig this Haus. The Adagio from the E^b Sonata (Hob.XVI:52) is exactly the sort of thing I never suspected Haydn wrote.

I just read this, and Lo, here is the Beghin box by my side. I shall embark upon a dash at CD12 this instant.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 09, 2012, 11:03:18 AM

Dash with confidence, O Alan!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 09, 2012, 11:05:52 AM

That Adagio has moments of Liszt, before there ever was a Liszt. (More than 15 years before Ferencz's birth, i.e.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on January 09, 2012, 11:07:52 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 09, 2012, 11:03:18 AM
Dash with confidence, O Alan!

Listening to the allegro of Hob XIV.52, I'll tell yer this, old chap: if I played this to all the good folk of my acquaintance, I betcha ~~a million pounds~~ 50 pence* that none of them would guess the composer to be Haydn.

*Caution creeping in...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on January 09, 2012, 11:11:58 AM

Well you can say what you like, people, but that Allegro rocks!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on January 09, 2012, 11:14:03 AM

And I'd just like to add that I came to this fresh from the box of Vaughan Williams movie music: not, I suspect, the best preparation.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 09, 2012, 11:15:38 AM

Well, but in being such a clear contrast, perhaps the best preparation, indeed.

All right! All right! I'm listening to the Allegro again! The whole ~~schnitzel~~ enchilada!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on January 09, 2012, 11:17:15 AM

And I'm with you Karl - the Adagio is lovely. Lovely and somehow quite shocking. And I know I'm no judge, truly I am not, but if this isn't exquisite playing then I'm a banana.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 09, 2012, 11:18:15 AM

Quote from: Elgarian on January 09, 2012, 11:11:58 AM
Well you can say what you like, people, but that Allegro rocks!

No lie. I have bounced that movement off more than one classical fan and left them agape. I personally think that he could have written a lot more at that level if his intended players were the caliber of Teresa Bartolozzi (nee Janzen). She was an amateur, but apparently had the gift. Clementi called her one of his finest students. Not hard to imagine why! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 09, 2012, 11:21:31 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 09, 2012, 11:18:15 AM
No lie. I have bounced that movement off more than one classical fan and left them agape. I personally think that he could have written a lot more at that level if his intended players were the caliber of Teresa Bartolozzi (nee Janzen).

Yes, and I might have seen that point a-coming before. After all, I've written quite a passel of sacred choral music for choirs of modest means . . . reserving a piece like the Passion for a choir capable of it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on January 09, 2012, 11:22:47 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 09, 2012, 11:18:15 AM
No lie. I have bounced that movement off more than one classical fan and left them agape.

I believe you!

Onto the Finale now, and my dear friends, there are moments of pure Jerry Lee Lewis here. Beghin is crouching on top of his stool as he plays parts of this, right? Great Balls of Fire!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on January 09, 2012, 11:28:02 AM

Well for Pete's sake. This alone was worth buying the box for. And for my mere £27 spent, I have most of CD 12 and 11 other CDs still to listen to, right? And a DVD to watch?

Not to mention the free chocolates and the two-week cruise for two.*

* I exaggerated a bit about the chocolates and the cruise.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 09, 2012, 11:38:27 AM

D'you know, Alan, I don't think it much of an exaggeration to say that the E^b sonata alone merits the cost of the box.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on January 09, 2012, 11:49:19 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 09, 2012, 11:38:27 AM
D'you know, Alan, I don't think it much of an exaggeration to say that the E^b sonata alone merits the cost of the box.

True words and solemn, Karl. As anyone buying the box in the hope of finding free chocolates will discover.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: springrite on January 09, 2012, 11:55:32 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 09, 2012, 11:38:27 AM
D'you know, Alan, I don't think it much of an exaggeration to say that the E^b sonata alone merits the cost of the box.

Is it recycled paper?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on January 09, 2012, 11:58:35 AM

Quote from: springrite on January 09, 2012, 11:55:32 AM
Is it recycled paper?

It's an authentic reconstruction of the kind of CD box that Haydn and his patrons would have used.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 09, 2012, 12:00:22 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 09, 2012, 11:38:27 AM
D'you know, Alan, I don't think it much of an exaggeration to say that the E^b sonata alone merits the cost of the box.

And do you notice? That sonata is in there twice, once on an English pianoforte such as Janzen would have played it on, and again on a Viennese fortepiano such as it would have been played on upon his return home. Different sounding, ain't they? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 09, 2012, 12:01:38 PM

Quote from: Elgarian on January 09, 2012, 11:58:35 AM
It's an authentic reconstruction of the kind of CD box that Haydn and his patrons would have used.

I've got a DVD of its construction, actually, right from the logging through the mulching.... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on January 09, 2012, 12:08:17 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 09, 2012, 12:00:22 PM
And do you notice? That sonata is in there twice, once on an English pianoforte such as Janzen would have played it on, and again on a Viennese fortepiano such as it would have been played on upon his return home. Different sounding, ain't they? :)

8)

Ah, I had not noticed that and was a bit confused when I sampled the performance from D12 - the instrument sounded much different than I had remembered from when I first was listening to this box. I now went back and found the other performance from D11.

Not only is the instrument different but the room is more reverberant.

I think I prefer the D11 one; is that the English keyboard? I am not at home and do not have access to the booklet.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on January 09, 2012, 12:08:58 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 09, 2012, 12:00:22 PM
And do you notice? That sonata is in there twice, once on an English pianoforte such as Janzen would have played it on, and again on a Viennese fortepiano such as it would have been played on upon his return home.

So it is! But the delights and mysteries of CD 11 must wait for another occasion.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 09, 2012, 03:14:18 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 09, 2012, 12:00:22 PM
And do you notice? That sonata is in there twice [...]

I had not noticed! Très cool, as I was immediately thinking I should like a second "view" of the E^b sonata. In fact (shield yer eyes, Gurn), I was wondering if Marc-André Hamelin has recorded the piece . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on January 09, 2012, 03:45:43 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 09, 2012, 03:14:18 PM
I had not noticed! Très cool, as I was immediately thinking I should like a second "view" of the E^b sonata. In fact (shield yer eyes, Gurn), I was wondering if Marc-André Hamelin has recorded the piece . . . .

I love Alfred Brendel's Haydn 8) Brendel's rendering leaves me breathless.

Indeed, Haydn's sonatas were a revelation when I first heard them, not that long ago. My first Haydn sonata recordings were with Gilbert Kalish on a set of LPs 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 09, 2012, 04:15:42 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 09, 2012, 03:14:18 PM
I had not noticed! Très cool, as I was immediately thinking I should like a second "view" of the E^b sonata. In fact (shield yer eyes, Gurn), I was wondering if Marc-André Hamelin has recorded the piece . . . .

Chances are he did, Karl. That movement is virtually the only one that requires that level of virtuosity, and I can't see Hamelin resisting it. In just reviewing my collection now, I see I have 7 versions on PI, and that I chose Staier for my model. IIRC, I could have easily chosen Brautigam, who is stellar in it. I understand Gary Cooper is very fine too, but I haven't snapped that one up yet. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 09, 2012, 07:59:19 PM

the E flat is on this one, Karl:
[asin]B000N2H832[/asin].
Hamelin has done two 2 CD sets of Haydn's music; this is the earlier one, although truth to tell, I think both are worth getting. (I seem to remember Gurn specifically not liking Hamelin's performances here, however.)
There's also a Virgin 2CD pairing on my shelves of Pletnev playing concertos (CD 1) and solo works (CD 2) of which the E flat is one, and this one by Angela Hewitt, of which the Handel selections are more prominent in my memory
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51oDRXixYlL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
And this one--again the Haydn portion is the one that stands out least in my memory.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516%2BahIOIYL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

That's all of my Haydn on modern piano and the E flat appears in all of them. (I've got Brautigam and now Beghin for the complete works.) Judging by how they stand out in my memory (or don't), I suppose Hamelin is the winner.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 09, 2012, 10:36:35 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 09, 2012, 07:59:19 PM
the E flat is on this one, Karl:
[asin]B000N2H832[/asin].
Hamelin has done two 2 CD sets of Haydn's music; this is the earlier one, although truth to tell, I think both are worth getting. (I seem to remember Gurn specifically not liking Hamelin's performances here, however.)

If that's the case, Gurn is totally right. Hamelin plays some of the most unidiomatic Haydn that I have heard ever. If modern instruments are the thing, Brendel and Schiff are top choices in my book.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 09, 2012, 10:42:55 PM

Why not having the best of the two worlds? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS5ttAiBNxM&feature=related) 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Elgarian on January 09, 2012, 11:50:31 PM

Did Little Richard do a version of the finale of that E Flat job?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 10, 2012, 04:07:27 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 09, 2012, 07:59:19 PM
the E flat is on this one, Karl:
[asin]B000N2H832[/asin].
Hamelin has done two 2 CD sets of Haydn's music; this is the earlier one, although truth to tell, I think both are worth getting. (I seem to remember Gurn specifically not liking Hamelin's performances here, however.)

Groovy. (In spite of Gurn's specifically not liking it, I mean.)

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 09, 2012, 07:59:19 PM[...] That's all of my Haydn on modern piano and the E flat appears in all of them.

That does not surprise me. Unless a pianist is "in the tank" and at least disposed to dig into Haydn for good (not that there's anything wrong with that . . . .) this sonata is so obviously strong as to take a place in concert repertory.

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 09, 2012, 10:36:35 PM
Hamelin plays some of the most unidiomatic Haydn that I have heard ever.

Now that's got me yet more interested to hear how Hamelin plays it. : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 10, 2012, 04:16:23 AM

Of course though, in keeping with his personal idiom, Gurn is totally oblivious to what other people like in terms of performance. As long as you get the music, in whatever twisted and demented way it is presented, that's the important thing. :D IMO, Hamelin is great in Alkan. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 10, 2012, 04:23:04 AM

Only one of your amiable qualities, O Gurn, is your live-and-let-live attitude towards your fellow listeners' preferences : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 10, 2012, 04:24:08 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 10, 2012, 04:23:04 AM
Only one of your amiable qualities, O Gurn, is your live-and-let-live attitude towards your fellow listeners' preferences : )

So true, Karl, so true.... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 10, 2012, 04:32:07 AM

Quote from: Arnold on January 09, 2012, 12:08:17 PM
I think I prefer the D11 one

Interesting . . . I am apt to prefer the disc 12 version. At first, on hearing it yesterday, I found myself just a little annoyed with some passages in which it seemed to me that Beghin was exaggerating the secco (let's be honest: it is exactly the sort of manner which those of us who have studied a musical instrument are taught to regard as unmusical, clipped). But that passing pique notwithstanding, the whole sonata really impresses as striking, energetic, unstoppable.

Both the instrument and the acoustic for the disc 11 version are "juicier" (which apparently answers my initial objection, above) — yet I have got to say that the overall impression of the piece is less . . . incisive.

Still processing initial impressions, of course, so consider this less a binding judgment, and more a faithful snapshot of my ears at the moment.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on January 10, 2012, 04:47:00 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 10, 2012, 04:32:07 AM
(I)t seemed to me that Beghin was exaggerating the secco (let's be honest: it is exactly the sort of manner which those of us who have studied a musical instrument in the latter half of the twentieth century are taught to regard as unmusical, clipped).

0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 10, 2012, 04:48:50 AM

Yes? Any forum participants who have studied an instrument in the 18^th century? I mean, I should be happy to add meaningful qualifiers to help anyone out . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 10, 2012, 04:51:13 AM

Quote from: Arnold on January 09, 2012, 12:08:17 PM
I think I prefer the D11 one; is that the English keyboard? I am not at home and do not have access to the booklet.

Disc 12 (Program 10) is alla inglese; so our preferences may just align here, after all.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 10, 2012, 04:53:11 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 10, 2012, 04:48:50 AM
Any forum participants who have studied an instrument in the 18^th century?

My name is Franz Joseph Haydn and I want to tell you that modern interpreters suck big time. Just hear this dreadful Herr Beethoven, for instance... ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 10, 2012, 06:13:30 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 10, 2012, 04:53:11 AM
My name is Franz Joseph Haydn and I want to tell you that modern interpreters suck big time. Just hear this dreadful Herr Beethoven, for instance... ;D ;D ;D

I am curious what he did think, actually. Beethoven's style (molto legato so I hear) would be quite different from what Haydn heard all his life. I figure he could probably live with it though; Beethoven didn't incorporate virtuosity for its own sake, which would have been anathema to the 18th century mind. Beethoven's virtuosity was in the service of the music. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on January 10, 2012, 07:05:33 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 10, 2012, 06:13:30 AM
which would have been anathema to the 18th century mind.

I am listening to the welsh songs right now and must say that I can't find any sign of the 18th century mind in them.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on January 10, 2012, 07:10:23 AM

Quote from: mszczuj on January 10, 2012, 07:05:33 AM
I am listening to the welsh songs right now and must say that I can't find any sign of the 18th century mind in them.

I reckon a genteel interest in quaint indigenous cultures was a harbinger of things to come.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on January 10, 2012, 07:22:28 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on January 10, 2012, 07:10:23 AM
I reckon a genteel interest in quaint indigenous cultures was a harbinger of things to come.

I didn't mean reworking of folk songs (it is the 18th century concept) but the way he had did it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 10, 2012, 07:47:27 AM

A lot of Fey love lately. I'm curious - is the cycle complete yet? Has there been talk about eventually releasing a set?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 10, 2012, 08:11:01 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 10, 2012, 07:47:27 AM
A lot of Fey love lately. I'm curious - is the cycle complete yet? Has there been talk about eventually releasing a set?

It isn't complete yet, I expect it will be though. It seems like a natural thing that they will release it as a box, but AFAIK they haven't made any sort of announcement yet. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 10, 2012, 08:12:48 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 10, 2012, 08:11:01 AM
It isn't complete yet, I expect it will be though. It seems like a natural thing that they will release it as a box, but AFAIK they haven't made any sort of announcement yet. :-\

8)

Thanks. Do you know how much further they have to go?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 10, 2012, 08:14:08 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 10, 2012, 07:47:27 AM
A lot of Fey love lately. I'm curious - is the cycle complete yet? Has there been talk about eventually releasing a set?

Vol.16, with 90 and 92, is due out this month. The cycle is less than halfway complete. I don't know what the schedule is but I assume it might be several years before it is completed and a box released.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 10, 2012, 08:15:25 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 10, 2012, 08:14:08 AM
Vol.16, with 90 and 92, is due out this month. The cycle is about halfway complete. I don't what the schedule is but I assume it might be several years before it is completed and a box released.

sarge

Oh Thanks! Exactly what I wanted to know.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 10, 2012, 08:36:41 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 10, 2012, 08:14:08 AM
Vol.16, with 90 and 92, is due out this month. The cycle is less than halfway complete. I don't know what the schedule is but I assume it might be several years before it is completed and a box released.

sarge

16? :o. I only have 9 Fey recordings right now. I would love to hear his interpretations of some earlier symphonies such as No.6 and No.22.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 10, 2012, 08:43:10 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 10, 2012, 08:36:41 AM
16? :o. I only have 9 Fey recordings right now. I would love to hear his interpretations of some earlier symphonies such as No.6 and No.22.

31 is, I believe, the earliest (numerically) he's recorded so far.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/dec11/haydn31fey.jpg)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 10, 2012, 08:44:33 AM

Just curious: apart from Dorati and Fischer, what other complete symphonic cycles are out there? What are your preferences, gentlemen? I'm interested in a consistently good set in the budget range - if such a beast exist. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on January 10, 2012, 08:50:50 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 10, 2012, 08:44:33 AM
Just curious: apart from Dorati and Fischer, what other complete symphonic cycles are out there? What are your preferences, gentlemen? I'm interested in a consistently good set in the budget range - if such a beast exist. :)

My only complete cycle is this, I love it so...the sound and performances are excellant, transparent-like texture in the strings, with a good bite in the brass too.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51nEOs2CjKL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Joseph Haydn: The Complete Symphonies
Dennis Russell Davies

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 10, 2012, 08:54:22 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 10, 2012, 08:44:33 AM
Just curious: apart from Dorati and Fischer, what other complete symphonic cycles are out there? What are your preferences, gentlemen? I'm interested in a consistently good set in the budget range - if such a beast exist. :)

Quote from: Leo K on January 10, 2012, 08:50:50 AM
Dennis Russell Davies

I think that's it: Davies, Dorati, Fischer. I think Naxos has recorded them all...but with different orchestras and conductors? None of the PI cycles were completed. A pity.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 10, 2012, 09:03:06 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 10, 2012, 08:43:10 AM
31 is, I believe, the earliest (numerically) he's recorded so far.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/dec11/haydn31fey.jpg)

Sarge

Another great performance, dynamite horns! Plus, I love the tempo of the finale, quicker than my other recordings and I prefer that.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 10, 2012, 09:05:41 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 10, 2012, 08:44:33 AM
Just curious: apart from Dorati and Fischer, what other complete symphonic cycles are out there? What are your preferences, gentlemen?

My preference? Selecting individual discs from a wide range of conductors and orchestras. I'm still working on a complete Haydn CD cycle. I need 10, 11, 18, 27, 32 and 62 yet. Then I can die a happy man...well, not happy, but complete. 8) I've resisted the big boxes. Too easy ;D But if I had to choose I'd probably go for Dorati for sentimental reasons. I like his Haydn style too.

Sarge

P.S. Does anyone have recommendations for any of those symphonies?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on January 10, 2012, 09:44:43 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 10, 2012, 09:05:41 AM
My preference? Selecting individual discs from a wide range of conductors and orchestras. I'm still working on a complete Haydn CD cycle. I need 10, 11, 18, 27, 32 and 62 yet. Then I can die a happy man...well, not happy, but complete. 8) I've resisted the big boxes. Too easy ;D But if I had to choose I'd probably go for Dorati for sentimental reasons. I like his Haydn style too.

Sarge

P.S. Does anyone have recommendations for any of those symphonies?

Well, Goodman covers 10, 11 and 18. I'm very fond of his Haydn, especially the earlier numbers, where his lightness of touch is so appropriate. But YMMV.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on January 10, 2012, 09:53:12 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 10, 2012, 09:05:41 AM
My preference? Selecting individual discs from a wide range of conductors and orchestras. I'm still working on a complete Haydn CD cycle. I need 10, 11, 18, 27, 32 and 62 yet. Then I can die a happy man...well, not happy, but complete. 8) I've resisted the big boxes. Too easy ;D But if I had to choose I'd probably go for Dorati for sentimental reasons. I like his Haydn style too.

Sarge

P.S. Does anyone have recommendations for any of those symphonies?

Hogwood has done #27, #32 (on the same disc) and 62, and (as has been pointed out) Goodman would be a good choice for #10, #11 and #18.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 10, 2012, 10:43:33 AM

Quote from: Arnold on January 10, 2012, 09:53:12 AM
Hogwood has done #27, #32 (on the same disc) and 62, and (as has been pointed out) Goodman would be a good choice for #10, #11 and #18.

That's too easy! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 10, 2012, 10:45:34 AM

Haydnistas gotta feel the burn!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 10, 2012, 11:18:23 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 10, 2012, 10:43:33 AM
That's too easy! :)

;D :D ;D ...way too easy. But I'll probably go there 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on January 10, 2012, 11:38:48 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 10, 2012, 11:18:23 AM
;D :D ;D ...way too easy. But I'll probably go there 8)

Sarge

It is even easier than I thought - Vol. 1 of Hogwood (http://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Haydn-Symphonies-1757-60-Chrisopher/dp/B000004CY3) has #10, 11, 18, 27 & 32 - you'll have to look for Vol. 10 for #62.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 10, 2012, 11:46:35 AM

Quote from: Arnold on January 10, 2012, 11:38:48 AM
It is even easier than I thought - Vol. 1 of Hogwood (http://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Haydn-Symphonies-1757-60-Chrisopher/dp/B000004CY3) has #10, 11, 18, 27 & 32 - you'll have to look for Vol. 10 for #62.

:)

Not so easy afterall. Vol 1 isn't readily available in Europe...at least not cheaply :(

Volume 10 too is expensive--especially considering that I only need one symphony from the box.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on January 10, 2012, 11:55:25 AM

Amazon UK has Vol. 1 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Haydn-Symphs-Vol-1-Aam/dp/B000004CY3)

But I don't know if UK34 is too much for a used set. Of course, downloads are available.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 10, 2012, 12:28:58 PM

Quote from: Arnold on January 10, 2012, 11:55:25 AM
Amazon UK has Vol. 1 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Haydn-Symphs-Vol-1-Aam/dp/B000004CY3)

But I don't know if UK34 is too much for a used set. Of course, downloads are available.

Thanks. I'll consider that one seriously (although with shipping from the US to Germany it becomes a costly affair). I have to confess I'm a bit spoiled by the recent JPC sale: €9.99. Unfortunately they didn't have vol 1.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 10, 2012, 07:45:27 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 09, 2012, 07:59:19 PM
the E flat is on this one, Karl:
[asin]B000N2H832[/asin].
Hamelin has done two 2 CD sets of Haydn's music; this is the earlier one, although truth to tell, I think both are worth getting. (I seem to remember Gurn specifically not liking Hamelin's performances here, however.)
There's also a Virgin 2CD pairing on my shelves of Pletnev playing concertos (CD 1) and solo works (CD 2) of which the E flat is one, and this one by Angela Hewitt, of which the Handel selections are more prominent in my memory
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51oDRXixYlL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
And this one--again the Haydn portion is the one that stands out least in my memory.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516%2BahIOIYL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

That's all of my Haydn on modern piano and the E flat appears in all of them. (I've got Brautigam and now Beghin for the complete works.) Judging by how they stand out in my memory (or don't), I suppose Hamelin is the winner.

Listening report:
I'm listening in succession to Hamelin, Pletnev and Hewitt play the E flat sonata (don't have time tonight for the others).
Hamelin is the winner on modern piano.
I think I see Antoine's point about Hamelin not playing Haydn idiomatically. He doesn't seem to be playing it in a Haydnesque manner--but he does seem to be going after it as if it was early Beethoven, and considering it as a percursor to Beethoven, the performance works.
Pletnev seem to have mistaken this sonata for something written by a mid nineteenth century Romantic composer. It doesn't work. The epitome of unidiomatic.
Hewitt is more akin to Hamelin, but a little more explicitly romantic and therefore a little less successful, although nowhere near as bad as Pletnev.
And have now started the final course of the night, Brautigam. So far he actually seems to be playing in the same manner as Hewitt--the main differences are those inherent in the instruments (modern piano vs. fortepiano).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 11, 2012, 03:03:54 AM

Cool, Jeffrey. I was pretty much resolved to give Hamelin a try here; but for that reason, I am additionally grateful for your due diligence here.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on January 12, 2012, 01:46:54 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 10, 2012, 08:54:22 AM
I think that's it: Davies, Dorati, Fischer. I think Naxos has recorded them all...but with different orchestras and conductors? None of the PI cycles were completed. A pity.

Sarge

Yes, re: Naxos. But there is also another cycle out there, recorded for the Music Heritage Society. I'm trying to find out the name (I know I've written about it somewhere) and whether it's actually complete or was just started...
Do you remember?

Edit: Ernst Märzendorfer, Vienna Chamber Orchestra. Found an image of the LP... but now I notice it's even on Wiki.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 12, 2012, 02:04:35 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on January 12, 2012, 01:46:54 AM
Edit: Ernst Märzendorfer, Vienna Chamber Orchestra. Found an image of the LP... but now I notice it's even on Wiki.

Completed, or just started?

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on January 12, 2012, 02:07:23 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 12, 2012, 02:04:35 AM
Completed, or just started?

Sarge

Completed, I think.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 12, 2012, 02:29:05 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 10, 2012, 07:47:27 AM
A lot of Fey love lately. I'm curious - is the cycle complete yet? Has there been talk about eventually releasing a set?

I did some research. Here's a more detailed answer to your question:

Fey has recorded 41 of Haydn's symphonies so far (39 with the Heidelberger Sinfoniker, 2 with the Schlierbacher Kammerorchester). The Paris symphonies are also available packaged together.

Vol 01 - 94 104
Vol.02 - 45 64 (with the Schlierbacher Kammerorchester - may be oop now)
Vol 03 - 82 88 95
Vol 04 - 34 39 40 50
Vol 05 - 83 84 85
Vol 06 - 49 52 58
Vol 07 - 69 86 87
Vol 08 - 41 44 47
Vol 09 - 70 73 75
Vol 10 - 60 61
Vol 11 - 57 59 65
Vol 12 - 48 56
Vol 13 - 93 96 97
Vol 14 - 31 (coupled with two horn concertos)
Vol 15 - 53 54
Vol 16 - 90 92

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 12, 2012, 02:55:10 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 10, 2012, 07:45:27 PM
Listening report:
I'm listening in succession to Hamelin, Pletnev and Hewitt play the E flat sonata (don't have time tonight for the others).
Hamelin is the winner on modern piano.
I think I see Antoine's point about Hamelin not playing Haydn idiomatically. He doesn't seem to be playing it in a Haydnesque manner--but he does seem to be going after it as if it was early Beethoven, and considering it as a percursor to Beethoven, the performance works.
Pletnev seem to have mistaken this sonata for something written by a mid nineteenth century Romantic composer. It doesn't work. The epitome of unidiomatic.
Hewitt is more akin to Hamelin, but a little more explicitly romantic and therefore a little less successful, although nowhere near as bad as Pletnev.
And have now started the final course of the night, Brautigam. So far he actually seems to be playing in the same manner as Hewitt--the main differences are those inherent in the instruments (modern piano vs. fortepiano).

I have to disagree with this assessment (at least in part). Idiomatic or not, I feel that Pletnev works quite well, even better than Hamelin (in my opinion). I am not adverse to a bit of romantisicm, but he doesn't really go whole hog overboard either. So it does work (for me) and I would not say it is the 'epitone of unidiomatic'. The first movement, for example, works much better in Pletnev's hands, which he takes much slower. Although Hamelin sounds a bit more in the period style, his speed requires much more technique and fire power, which is something more associated with romantic period music. In fact, when I compare the third movement back to back, there really are more similarities than differences between them (and here the speed is nearly identical). They both take liberties with rubato too (at least that is what is sounds like without having seen the score).

So I would pick Pletnev as the winner on modern piano (between the two of them).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 12, 2012, 02:57:08 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 12, 2012, 02:29:05 AM
I did some research. Here's a more detailed answer to your question:

Fey has recorded 41 of Haydn's symphonies so far (39 with the Heidelberger Sinfoniker, 2 with the Schlierbacher Kammerorchester). The Paris symphonies are also available packaged together.

Vol 01 - 94 104
Vol.02 - 45 64 (with the Schlierbacher Kammerorchester - may be oop now)
Vol 03 - 82 88 95
Vol 04 - 34 39 40 50
Vol 05 - 83 84 85
Vol 06 - 49 52 58
Vol 07 - 69 86 87
Vol 08 - 41 44 47
Vol 09 - 70 73 75
Vol 10 - 60 61
Vol 11 - 57 59 65
Vol 12 - 48 56
Vol 13 - 93 96 97
Vol 14 - 31 (coupled with two horn concertos)
Vol 15 - 53 54
Vol 16 - 90 92

Sarge

Wow! Thanks! Very useful (and I think helpful for those considering a purchase)! You've gone far above the call on this one!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 12, 2012, 03:01:40 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 12, 2012, 02:57:08 AMYou've gone far above the call on this one!!

(http://www.history.army.mil/images/moh/moh.jpg)

:D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 12, 2012, 03:08:28 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 12, 2012, 03:01:40 AM
(http://www.history.army.mil/images/moh/moh.jpg)

:D

Perfect!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on January 12, 2012, 04:59:21 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 12, 2012, 02:29:05 AM
I did some research. Here's a more detailed answer to your question:

Fey has recorded 41 of Haydn's symphonies so far (39 with the Heidelberger Sinfoniker, 2 with the Schlierbacher Kammerorchester). The Paris symphonies are also available packaged together...

Sarge

I'm checking at the source to see if more information can be gotten re: recording plans/schedule. Will keep you posted.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 12, 2012, 05:39:38 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 12, 2012, 02:29:05 AM
I did some research. Here's a more detailed answer to your question:

Vol.02 - 45 64 (with the Schlierbacher Kammerorchester - may be oop now)

The Paris symphonies are also available packaged together...

Sarge

There are some Nos.45/64 on Amazon MP, affordable prices.
Also, you'll end up getting all of the Paris symphonies if you get the individual discs as No.82 is with 88 & 95, and Nos.86, 87 are with 69. Might save some money.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 12, 2012, 06:32:19 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on January 12, 2012, 04:59:21 AM
I'm checking at the source to see if more information can be gotten re: recording plans/schedule. Will keep you posted.

Thanks. I am curious to know if I'll live long enough to see its completion ;D Will it be within a couple of years, or are we talking another decade? Whatever you can find out would be much appreciated.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 12, 2012, 06:37:15 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 12, 2012, 05:39:38 AM
There are some Nos.45/64 on Amazon MP, affordable prices.

I noticed that too, and I grabbed one of them shortly after I posted (less than 4 Euro). The CD isn't listed on the Hänssler website which makes me think it has been deleted. Could be just an oversight though...or maybe the search engine overlooked it.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 13, 2012, 05:07:37 PM

Part 36

1787

...the year of some of my favorite Haydn works. I know, I know, I say that every year, but this year I really mean it!

Symphony Hob 88 has been considered by many connoisseurs over the intervening 200+ years as one of Haydn's greatest in the genre, certainly the best one without a name ("The Letter V" is nothing more than part of an old numbering system). This little quote from Brahms that I picked off Wiki says more than I could;

QuoteThe slow movement in D major consists mainly of embellishments of the legato oboe theme which opens it, though every so often is punctuated by chords played by the whole orchestra. After hearing this slow movement, Johannes Brahms is said to have remarked, "I want my Ninth Symphony to sound like this". It is the first of Haydn's symphonies to use trumpets and timpani in the slow movement.

And then, my personal favorite set of string quartets. From the rapid heartbeat pulsing of the cello that opens #1 to the bariolage in "The Frog", I feel that this group, which many scholars believe was Haydn's musical reply to Mozart's "Haydn Quartets", is his most distilled and concentrated effort, combining the various innovations that came before with new ideas for the future. If this opus is new to you (and it could well be, because it isn't popular, nor was it meant to be), then you owe it to yourself to give it a try.

Yet another quartet work from this year was the transcription of the "Seven Last Words". Not one to let the grass grow underfoot, nor let someone else (inevitably they would) steal the show, Haydn was quick to take up these popular presentations; the quartet version which he composed himself, and the keyboard version which was done by Anonymous under his watchful eye. The quartet version is actually the one which most people (including yours truly) heard first; it is still the favorite of thousands.

We also see the final three concerti for Lira organizzata for the King of Naples completed and sent on this year. It didn't take long for Haydn to start reusing his good ideas, as the 2nd & 3rd movements of #5 pop up in the slow movement and finale of Symphony Hob 89 in this very same year!

Finally we end up with 3 more replacement arias; 2 for men and one for Luigia. As always, each is at least on a par with its intended target for replacement. A proper appreciation of Haydn's great ability to write for the voice, a result of talent, practice and the fortuitous teachings of Porpora continues to grow.

The music of 1787;

Hob 01_088 Symphony #88 in G
Tafelmusik / Bruno Weil
Hob 01_089 Symphony #89 in F
Orchestra of the 18th Century / Brüggen
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnWeilSymphoniesboxcover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnBruggen88_89cover.jpg)

Hob 03_44 Quartet in Bb for Strings Op 50 #1
Hob 03_45 Quartet in C for Strings Op 50 #2
Hob 03_46 Quartet in Eb for Strings Op 50 #3
Hob 03_47 Quartet in f# for Strings Op 50 #4
Hob 03_48 Quartet in F for Strings Op 50 #5
Hob 03_49 Quartet in D for Strings Op 50 #6
Salomon Quartet
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/SalomonOp501_3cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/SalomonOp504_6cover.jpg)

Hob 03_50 'The 7 Last Words' for String Quartet
The Kuijken String Quartet
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKuijken4tet7Lastcover.jpg)

Hob 07h_3 Concerto in G for 2 Lira (Naples Version)
Hob 07h_4 Concerto in F for 2 Lira (Naples Version)
Hob 07h_5 Concerto in F for 2 Lira (Naples Version)
Ruf / Lautenberger & Nielen / Beyer & Berndt / Uhl / Koch / Hoffman & Irmscher
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnRealLiracover.jpg)

Hob 20_03 The Seven Last Words of Christ on the Cross for Keyboard
Ronald Brautigam
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardCompleteBrautigamcover.jpg)

Hob 24b_10 Aria for Tenor "Ah, tu non senti - Qual destra omicida" for Oreste (Tenor) - "Ifigenia in Tauride" by Traetta
Manfred Huss / Haydn Sinfonietta Wien - Bernard Richter

Hob 24b_11 Aria for Baritone 'Un cor s'i tenero' for Ormondo (Bar) - "Il disertore" by Bianchi
Concentus musicus Wien / Harnoncourt Thomas Hampson

Hob 24b_12 Aria for Soprano " Vada adagio, Signorina" for Cardellina (Sop) - "La quakera spiritosa" by Guglielmi
L'Orfeo Baroque Orchestra / Gaigg Nuria Rial
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussOperaatEsterhazacover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHarnoncourtSymphoniescover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Rialcover.jpg)

There are three readily available PI versions of the two symphonies of this year; Weil, Brüggen and Kuijken. After a steady session of listening and re-listening, I came away with Weil and Brüggen, as you see. The fact is, I listen to Kuijken as much as or more than either of the other two, so what do I know? :) All three versions are very creditable, but I like the joie de vivre that the Canadians impart to Hob 88. It jumps!

PI versions (and MI ones too, for that matter) of Op 50 are less readily available than Op 33, 64 or 76. The two I have, Festetics and Salomon, are both very fine, but I gave the nod to the Salomon's on Hyperion because I think it is their finest effort in the disks I have heard, and the slightly more deliberate attack they have is very well-suited to these works. And they were amazingly easy to find and affordable, at least they were a year ago. I am totally delighted with this investment. :)

Another surprisingly easy to find and afford disk was also the tops (for me) quartet version of The Seven Last Words. Denon's Kuijken Quartet disks from Japan are generally prohibitively expensive and difficult to find. This is the exception that proves the rule, plus it is hard to beat when it comes to allowing the listener into the music. It's a peach.

No point in getting away from a good thing. For the final three Lira concerti I am sticking with these guys; Ruf / Lautenberger & Nielen / Beyer & Berndt / Uhl / Koch / Hoffman & Irmscher. When you get along to the Romanze of #3, prepare for the surprise of hearing the entire Allegretto of the "Military" symphony, sans Turkish section. Well, if you write good enough music, it doesn't matter how often you reuse it... :D Anyway, as I mentioned earlier, this set doesn't appear to be available at all, except in the Big Box. As though there weren't 149 other reasons to buy it... 0:)

Some tough choices to make when we get to the keyboard version of The Seven Last Words. Häkkinen, Tuma and Oort all make persuasive arguments, but for me, El Terremoto of Brautigam stole the day. YMMV, I really make no argument for any one over another, I just listen to this one the most. :-\

We have three different artists in our three arias this year. And for once, it isn't me being fickle. Fact is, these are the only three versions I have of each of these, and I am thankful that they are all excellent. The Harnoncourt/Hampson one was a particular surprise because I had been lacking it for a long time, and when I recently bought the Harnoncourt symphonies box at a bargain price, lo and behold! It was a throw-in filler that wasn't even listed in the advert. Heck of a filler though, because it is a wonderful version of a very nice aria.

So, 1787 draws to a close. I'm going to fire it up as soon as I post this and spend a wonderful evening with some equally wonderful music. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 13, 2012, 05:32:34 PM

Thanks, Gurn. Another fine and superbly written segment. Your enthusiasm for Haydn's music enhances the reading, and it's very influential.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 13, 2012, 05:39:10 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 13, 2012, 05:32:34 PM
Thanks, Gurn. Another fine and superbly written segment. Your enthusiasm for Haydn's music enhances the reading, and it's very influential.

Thanks, Greg. I'm very pleased that you enjoyed it. Hope it gives you some listening ideas. OK, I'll admit it; I have always been a Haydn fan since I was a mere lad (my father used to play his 'London Symphonies' LP's regularly). Now, perhaps, one could expand the 'fan' into its original meaning.... :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Goodman17_21cover-1.jpg)
The Hanover Band; Goodman - Hob 01_019 Symphony in D 3rd mvmt - Presto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on January 13, 2012, 05:51:22 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 13, 2012, 05:39:10 PM
Thanks, Greg. I'm very pleased that you enjoyed it. Hope it gives you some listening ideas. OK, I'll admit it; I have always been a Haydn fan since I was a mere lad (my father used to play his 'London Symphonies' LP's regularly). Now, perhaps, one could expand the 'fan' into its original meaning.... :D

8)

That warm analogue sound never leaves you. Like a warm blanket around the mind. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 13, 2012, 05:55:16 PM

Quote from: Bogey on January 13, 2012, 05:51:22 PM
That warm analogue sound never leaves you. Like a warm blanket around the mind. :)

Well, that and the pops and scratches... :D I wish I could remember, though, who were performing those symphonies. They are probably better in my memory than they would be in reality, but still... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on January 13, 2012, 06:00:11 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 13, 2012, 05:55:16 PM
Well, that and the pops and scratches... :D I wish I could remember, though, who were performing those symphonies. They are probably better in my memory than they would be in reality, but still... :)

8)

If I had to guess....Dorati....on Decca or Mercury. What years would that have been?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 13, 2012, 06:15:33 PM

Quote from: Bogey on January 13, 2012, 06:00:11 PM
If I had to guess....Dorati....on Decca or Mercury. What years would that have been?

Well, late '50's / early '60's, certainly before '65. Not likely to be Märzendorfer, my father would have gone for an inexpensive but readily available performance. I can easily feature 1 of them, it was white with (in very large letters)
HAYDN SYMPHONIES
#100 'MILITARY'
'SURPRISE' #94

and little else on the cover. Maybe it was "The Little Symphony of London"... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on January 14, 2012, 06:17:59 AM

Quote from: Bogey on January 13, 2012, 05:51:22 PM
That warm analogue sound never leaves you. Like a warm blanket around the mind. :)

I thought you were talking about pot for a second there! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 14, 2012, 06:46:44 AM

Quote from: DavidW on January 14, 2012, 06:17:59 AM
I thought you were talking about pot for a second there! :D

Haydnistos don't need drugs; we're high on music. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 14, 2012, 11:33:03 AM

Part 37

1788

This was a momentous (in retrospect) year for Europe. The last year before the French Revolution would threaten and eventually bring down L'Ancien Régime. In another 2 years, Prince Nikolaus the Magnificent would be dead, and so would Emperor Joseph II. Life as Haydn knew it was going to change tremendously. But for now, it was non-stop, full ahead, business as usual.

The popularity of the Paris Symphonies led to further commissions from Le Compte D'Ogny, and works for Paris in general. At that time, there was a large musical triangle superimposed on Europe, and its vertices were London/Paris/Vienna. Haydn was doing his best to extract full value from the three of them, along with every little old place in between. Some of this year's works ended up being carried to Paris by Haydn's friend and one-time Esterháza orchestra violinist Johann Tost. The quartets, now called Op 54 & 55 were actually a set of 6 that he broke up to maximize the return. Tost told Sieber in Paris that Haydn had dedicated there works to him, probably not true but they are still called the Tost Quartets I & II (while next year's Op 64 will become Tost Quartets III). Has anyone mentioned yet that Haydn was a sharp guy in business? My modern standards he would have been kneecapped along the way, but back then, in the days of no copyright, his practice of selling the same works to 2, 3 or 4 different publishers in the triangle was merely a way to get some return on them. Those same publishers would have bought a copy from the original publisher and published them as new for pure profit anyway, so this way Haydn got a piece of the action. I'm not going to linger on this issue, because I haven't the least moral reservation concerning it (as many do, since they can't divorce modern standards from totally different times). But given the times, I think he did a great job of avoiding getting screwed, which so many got done to them. :)

Now too, we first run across a new genre, the Notturno. Not that it doesn't match up conceptually with some early divertimentos, but these commissions from the King of Naples enabled Haydn to bring back the divertimento in a totally modernized form. I want to discuss these a bit more when we talk about the performances. A lot is going on here that can cause confusion in the ranks of the Haydnistos, but after researching it for quite some time, I may have it finally all figured out. :D

Two lovely keyboard trios, the beginnings of another set that will be completed next year. It is interesting to see how Haydn's trend towards concentration in the string quartets has carried over to the trios. Since they are now becoming the second largest chamber music genre in his oeuvre, those who haven't begun to explore these yet need to begin to consider it. The bunch from Hob 5 to 32 are some of the best chamber music of the time, matched only by his friend Mozart.

Which brings us back to Vienna for the winter. Despite that one doesn't hear about it much, there is indisputable evidence that Haydn spent a lot of time with Mozart in the last half of the '780's. There is some documentation in Heartz and also in Geiringer, for example, that they sat and played the score of Così fan tutti on the piano together. Sitting on the divan with Constanze during all that would have been like being in the 4th Circle of Heaven...

The music of 1788;

Hob 01_090 Symphony #90 in C
   Tafelmusik / Bruno Weil
Hob 01_091 Symphony #91 in Eb
   La Petite Bande / Kuijken
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnWeilSymphoniesboxcover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKuijken88_92cover.jpg)

Hob 02_25 Notturno #1 in C for Lyre organizzate, Strings & Winds (Naples Version)
Hob 02_26 Notturno #2 in F for Lyre organizzate, Strings & Winds (Naples Version)
Hob 02_29 Notturno #5 in C for Lyre organizzate, Strings & Winds (Naples Version)
Hob 02_30 Notturno #6 in G for Lyre organizzate, Strings & Winds (Naples Version)
Hob 02_31 Notturno #4 in C for Lyre organizzate, Strings & Winds (Naples Version)
Hob 02_32 Notturno #3 in C for Lyre organizzate, Strings & Winds (Naples Version)
   Consortium Classicum
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKlockerNotturnicover.jpg)

Hob 03_57 Quartet in C for Strings Op 54 #2
Hob 03_58 Quartet in G for Strings Op 54 #1
Hob 03_59 Quartet in E for Strings Op 54 #3
Hob 03_60 Quartet in A for Strings Op 55 #1
Hob 03_61 Quartet in f for Strings Op 55 #2
Hob 03_62 Quartet in Bb for Strings Op 55 #3
   Quatuor Festetics
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnFesteticsOp54cover.jpg)

Hob 15_11 Trio in Eb for Piano & Strings
Hob 15_12 Trio in e for Piano & Strings
   Trio 1790
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/1790v2.jpg)

Hob 17_02b Arietta & 12 Variations in A for Keyboard
   Ronald Brautigam
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardCompleteBrautigamcover.jpg)

Hob 24b_13 Aria for Soprano "Chi vive amante, so che delira" for Erissena (Sop) in "Alessandro nell'Indie" by Bianchi
   L'Orfeo Baroque Orchestra / Gaigg Nuria Rial
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Rialcover.jpg)

When we last looked at symphonies 88 & 89, there were just 3 PI choices available. Well, that situation remains for this group also (they are the same group, after all). My listening session ended up with Weil again, and Kuijken this time. I find it very difficult to choose among these three bands, they have a similar overall style (and a fine one it is), and they just don't make the sorts of tragic miscalculations that make it easy to say no to any of them. So if you already have any one set, I would personally stand pat with it. There are so many things to spend your hard-earned cash on aside from replacing excellent with excellent... :)

So let's talk about notturnos now. As you see, I have chosen Consortium Classicum with Dieter Klöcker for these six works. In re-reading the liner notes recently (and after a long time!), I noted a few items that seem different. To start, Klöcker (DK) cites a musical historian named Wolfgang von Karajan (1973) as saying that unlike a hurdy-gurdy, the lira had no strings, only a rank of small organ pipes. Wyn Jones (and most others) say, OTOH, that there is also a set of drone strings that are rubbed by the mechanism to produce a harmonic tone. For this reason, DK is quite content to use 2 small positive organs to replace the 2 lira. So it sounds different from the effort of the Ensemble Limoges who built a lira for their recording. That said, the remainder of the ensemble is very nicely done, as both Klöcker and Waldemar Wandel play clarinets in C instead of Bb, which, with their higher pitch, sound wonderful. And I have to say, just for my own taste, the 2 positive organs also sound great. If the Neapolitan ensemble of 1788 played these as well as the Consortium Classicum do, then the King must have been knocked out!

The other issue I have though is not so easily resolved except to say that probably since 1974, when this recording was made, and today, there have been a lot of discoveries made. DK does the first six of these. He says that he believes that the other 2 that exist now (in 1974, that is) in the London version must have been the result of a second commission perhaps. Wyn Jones says, however, that there were originally 9 of them, but only 8 survived (minus the finale of #6). Given that this is the sole recording of the Naples versions (plus the single recorded by Ensemble Limoges), we will have to be content to hear just the first six. Perhaps a day will come when a project of this magnitude is considered manageable, but for now, I am going to enjoy this disk as much as I have since I got it 6 years ago! :)

Opera 54 & 55. Quite a change from Op 50. More in the style of the popular (French) Quatuor brillant. This set has the widest tonal range of any set; from 4 sharps (E major) to 4 flats (f minor). No other set compares to that. Additionally, there is a heavy accent on major tonalities. Even in the mandatory minor key work, the cadences are to major keys, and they predominate in the inside movements too. Speculation on this includes the possibility that we are possibly looking at the earliest series that was intended from the start for public performance. In any case, we are looking at some very pleasurable listening in these works. I not only like the Festetics in these, but I am delighted that I do, because I haven't been able to round up any others for comparison. I see the Salomon's have done them, but I can't find any for a reasonable price (or an unreasonable one, for that matter). :-\

I am still sticking with my Trio 1790 for these works. By the time we get to London in a few years, I may offer you some alternatives (lord knows I have them!). But I think you will be pleased with these traversals of a pair of very nice trios.

Now we come to a different version of an earlier work. I'm sure you vividly recall that back in 1765 Haydn wrote an Arietta and 20 Variations in G for Harpsichord. It is Hob 17_2a. Well, he resurrected this work for publication this year, changing the key to A major and reducing the number of variations to 12. All in all, a tidier little package, and well-played here by Brautigam. I like Schornsheim's rendition too. And I note that Beghin eschews it.

Finally, we end up with yet another replacement aria, sung by the lovely and talented Ms. Rial. This one for Bianchi's "Alexander (the Great) in India". I am still searching for, and simultaneously hoping for aid in finding, a list of the operas played in Esterháza from 1776-1790. Curiosity compels me forward on this one. Maybe we will multiprocess it. :)

So, enjoy another great year. We move ever closer to the major changes of the next decade, but are quite content with the treasures of this one.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 14, 2012, 06:49:57 PM

I'm a little confused about those Notturni. The liner notes for the Huss/Haydn Sinfonietta Wien recording state rather clearly that the original versions written for Naples are lost, and all we actually have are the rewrites FJH did for London. So where did these Naples versions come from?

Those liner notes, btw, describe the lira as having a set of sympathetic strings.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 14, 2012, 07:15:49 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 14, 2012, 06:49:57 PM
I'm a little confused about those Notturni. The liner notes for the Huss/Haydn Sinfonietta Wien recording state rather clearly that the original versions written for Naples are lost, and all we actually have are the rewrites FJH did for London. So where did these Naples versions come from?

Those liner notes, btw, describe the lira as having a set of sympathetic strings.

In "Oxford Composer Companion to Haydn", Wyn-Jones is very clear about what is and isn't extant. Of the original Naples versions, there were 9, but only 8 survive, with only the finale of #6 (Hob 2:30) missing completely. He goes on to say that Haydn himself only rescored 5 of those for London, which are 3, 4 5, 7 & 8 (Hob II:27-29, 31 & 32). This is not to say, however, that someone else (at a later time) didn't rescore the balance of them in either direction. When we get to 1790-91 and start looking at them, I have all 8 extant ones scored in the London style (flute & oboe instead of 2 lira, 2 extra violins replacing the 2 clarinets plus a double bass to beef up the bass line). DK says that only 6 survive in the Naples scoring, the other 2 only in the London scoring. I tend to believe this version, I think that Wyn-Jones was a bit unclear when he says "8 survive". I think he means a total of 8, but not all in the same scoring.

I will look at the Huss notes tomorrow, I'm curious what he means there. AFAIK, there has never been any doubt that the first 6 (- the last movement of #6) are in the original Naples scoring. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on January 15, 2012, 07:18:44 AM

I recently got the Op. 17 SQ by the London Haydn Quartet :

[asin]B0025YZ82O[/asin]

I do not remember them being discussed here, or at least, I may have missed them being discussed - but these recordings seem to fall between the Mosaiques and Festetics in style. I plan on looking for others in their series of Haydn SQ, and I'd be interested in hearing from others their impressions of the LHQ.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on January 15, 2012, 09:08:35 AM

Quote from: Arnold on January 15, 2012, 07:18:44 AM
I recently got the Op. 17 SQ by the London Haydn Quartet :

[asin]B0025YZ82O[/asin]

I do not remember them being discussed here, or at least, I may have missed them being discussed - but these recordings seem to fall between the Mosaiques and Festetics in style. I plan on looking for others in their series of Haydn SQ, and I'd be interested in hearing from others their impressions of the LHQ.

:)

I have recently aquired the Op.9, 17 and 20 sets out by the London Haydn Quartet, and are now my favorite quartet accounts of Haydn. The realistic sound and detail of the timbre of the instruments are so organic and textured, and bring out the best in these works. Op.20 sounds totally new to me, it really is amazing!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on January 15, 2012, 09:35:26 AM

Quote from: Leo K on January 15, 2012, 09:08:35 AM
I have recently aquired the Op.9, 17 and 20 sets out by the London Haydn Quartet, and are now my favorite quartet accounts of Haydn. The realistic sound and detail of the timbre of the instruments are so organic and textured, and bring out the best in these works. Op.20 sounds totally new to me, it really is amazing!

8)

Yes, I agree with your comments and plan on acquiring more of their cycle. Do you (or anyone) know if they have recorded the entire body of Haydn's quartets?

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 15, 2012, 10:00:53 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 14, 2012, 06:49:57 PM
I'm a little confused about those Notturni. The liner notes for the Huss/Haydn Sinfonietta Wien recording state rather clearly that the original versions written for Naples are lost, and all we actually have are the rewrites FJH did for London. So where did these Naples versions come from?

Those liner notes, btw, describe the lira as having a set of sympathetic strings.

Well, you're right, Huss does say that. I wonder what his sources are, since I haven't read that anywhere else. More research is in order, it seems... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 15, 2012, 03:58:20 PM

Hi Arnold & Leo - below is a post that I left on January 5 commenting on the Op. 20 recordings by the Haydn String Quartet - I own all of their offerings and assumed the current release would be in the same excellent continuum; however, 2 recent reviews in the publications mentioned were quite NEGATIVE - a shock to me already having listened to the discs (a summary file is attached but you may have to go back to that page to see the link) - I'd be quite interested in your responses to these reviews after listening to the recordings - I've still yet to have a second listen myself - Dave :)

Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 05, 2012, 04:24:10 PM
Hi Leo - I've enjoyed the first two Haydn SQ releases from this excellent group & the reviews were excellent, so I just went ahead and purchased the Op. 20 set assuming similar excellence - have just listened once and really enjoyed also - Hyperion as usual has done an outstanding effort in recording these string players.

Well, there was an excellent review on MusicWeb reprinted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=602501); however, I just received the Jan-Feb 2012 issues of the American Record Guide & Fanfare, and was rather shocked by simultaneous and independent negative comments made in both of these publications (for those interested, I've attached a summary of both reviews) - my first feeling is that neither of these reviewers are into this approach at all, particularly by some of their alternate recommendations - will be interested in the thoughts of others - hard to believe that the London Haydn SQ fell apart and did not know what they were doing on these recordings vs. their earlier superb efforts.

I plan to re-listen to these Op. 20 recordings soon and will be curious about the comments from others - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on January 15, 2012, 04:20:19 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 15, 2012, 03:58:20 PM
Hi Arnold & Leo - below is a post that I left on January 5 commenting on the Op. 20 recordings by the Haydn String Quartet - I own all of their offerings and assumed the current release would be in the same excellent continuum; however, 2 recent reviews in the publications mentioned were quite NEGATIVE - a shock to me already having listened to the discs (a summary file is attached but you may have to go back to that page to see the link) - I'd be quite interested in your responses to these reviews after listening to the recordings - I've still yet to have a second listen myself - Dave :)

Hi Dave - Yes, now I remember your post. After I read that post I checked my copy of Fanfare and found the review you referred to (oddly, my copy did not arrive until almost a full week after your post).

I have listened to the Op. 17 disc and have no complaints. In fact, I find much good about it and will recommend it to folks who may find the Festetics too "rustic" or the Mosaiques too controlled. For myself, I consider these three ensembles' interpretations of the Haydn quartets to be exemplary and different enough that there is little sense of duplication.

I will certainly invest in the Op. 20 recording, if for no other reason to see if my impressions reflect some of the opinions in the Fanfare review - although I tend to doubt that they will.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on January 16, 2012, 05:55:01 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 15, 2012, 10:00:53 AM
Well, you're right, Huss does say that. I wonder what his sources are, since I haven't read that anywhere else. More research is in order, it seems... :-\

8)

I'm almost sure Huss is wrong. I clearly recall (although I don't recall exactly where) I did read that copies are conserved for all those Notturni. Even regarding two or three of them, the manuscripts are conserved. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 16, 2012, 06:51:00 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on January 16, 2012, 05:55:01 AM
I'm almost sure Huss is wrong. I clearly recall (although I don't recall exactly where) I did read that copies are conserved for all those Notturni. Even regarding two or three of them, the manuscripts are conserved. :)

Well, that is what I recall also, not hard for me since I just read it twice over the weekend. :) I really need to check Robbins-Landon, only I am lacking that volume. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 17, 2012, 07:13:34 PM

Received the set of Harnoncourt's manly Masses from Prestoclassical. it also includes the Te Deum, the Stabat Mater, an Italian cantata, and the choral version of the Seven Last Words. The latter is the most interesting to me, since at the moment I've only got one recording of the keyboard version (Brautigam).
And as part of my order last night from JPC, I'll be getting the Van Oort set of Klavierstucke and the Klocker CPO recording of the Notturni.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 18, 2012, 04:17:21 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 17, 2012, 07:13:34 PM
Received the set of Harnoncourt's manly Masses from Prestoclassical. it also includes the Te Deum, the Stabat Mater, an Italian cantata, and the choral version of the Seven Last Words. The latter is the most interesting to me, since at the moment I've only got one recording of the keyboard version (Brautigam).
And as part of my order last night from JPC, I'll be getting the Van Oort set of Klavierstucke and the Klocker CPO recording of the Notturni.

Interesting, Jeffrey. I have been looking at that box for a while. I am pretty sure that there are a couple of small pieces in there which I may not have otherwise (like that aria that they stuck in the symphonies box). I do have that "Seven Last Words" though, and it is my model version. I think you'll like it too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 18, 2012, 04:41:20 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 17, 2012, 07:13:34 PM
Received the set of Harnoncourt's manly Masses from Prestoclassical. it also includes the Te Deum, the Stabat Mater, an Italian cantata, and the choral version of the Seven Last Words. The latter is the most interesting to me, since at the moment I've only got one recording of the keyboard version (Brautigam).
And as part of my order last night from JPC, I'll be getting the Van Oort set of Klavierstucke and the Klocker CPO recording of the Notturni.

Harnoncourt's Mass in Time of War is an emotionally shattering experience. He brings out the inherent violence of the work, and the pity of war, like no other conductor; it sounds like he turns it into an anti-war protest. I'm not sure it's historically "accurate" but it's a hell of an interpretation.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 18, 2012, 04:46:26 AM

I must give the Masses another try. They just didn't click with me the first I gave them a go.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 18, 2012, 04:57:44 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 18, 2012, 04:46:26 AM
I must give the Masses another try. They just didn't click with me the first I gave them a go.

It took me awhile to warm to them too. For example: I love the Mass in Time of War now, but I was initially put off by the jolly, even silly melody Haydn composed for the Allegro of the Kyrie eleison, which seemed to have none of the character ("Lord, have mercy") it should have had. Years after that first hearing, I acquired Harnoncourt; he makes it sound far more serious, and he helped convince me it wasn't so bad afterall 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 18, 2012, 07:19:35 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 18, 2012, 04:17:21 AM
Interesting, Jeffrey. I have been looking at that box for a while. I am pretty sure that there are a couple of small pieces in there which I may not have otherwise (like that aria that they stuck in the symphonies box). I do have that "Seven Last Words" though, and it is my model version. I think you'll like it too. :)

8)

Contents
Paukenmesse
Nelsonmesse
Harmoniemesse
Schopfungsmesse
Salve Regina Hob. XXII:9
Te Deum XXIIIc:1
Te Deum XXIIIc:2
Cantata Qual dubbio ormai XXIVa:4
Stabat Mater XXbis
Seven Last Words

6 CDs (although I sort of arranged them by categories--there's no more than one mass to a CD, with the Statbat Mater and Seven Last Words standing alone with 1 CD each)

This is the box that's uniform with your symphonies set, with a church interior on the cover. There's another issue that's uniform with Harnoncourt's Beethoven and Schumann boxes, with Harnoncourt and Haydn staring at each other on the cover, apparently slightly newer and definitely was a few dollars more when I sat to down to order it--which is why I opted for this issue. Not sure if the contents of the other set are exactly the same as the one I got.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 18, 2012, 08:28:35 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 18, 2012, 07:19:35 AM
Contents
Paukenmesse
Nelsonmesse
Harmoniemesse
Schopfungsmesse
Salve Regina Hob. XXII:9
Te Deum XXIIIc:1
Te Deum XXIIIc:2
Cantata Qual dubbio ormai XXIVa:4
Stabat Mater XXbis
Seven Last Words

6 CDs (although I sort of arranged them by categories--there's no more than one mass to a CD, with the Statbat Mater and Seven Last Words standing alone with 1 CD each)

This is the box that's uniform with your symphonies set, with a church interior on the cover. There's another issue that's uniform with Harnoncourt's Beethoven and Schumann boxes, with Harnoncourt and Haydn staring at each other on the cover, apparently slightly newer and definitely was a few dollars more when I sat to down to order it--which is why I opted for this issue. Not sure if the contents of the other set are exactly the same as the one I got.

Cool. So I went ahead and bought it based on your reaction and also Sarge's. That should give me something major to think about when I make my choices for the last 6 Masses. FWIW, the Harmoniemesse is my favorite (no surprise there, I suppose). :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on January 18, 2012, 11:51:05 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 18, 2012, 04:46:26 AM
I must give the Masses another try.[/font]

That is what I have done last days - for the first tiime since my great Haydn listening era 15 years ago (when I had bought too much Haydn CDs - about 100, and they had been my first Haydn CDs ever).

Once again the Masses reveal to me as equal to String Quartets and Symphonies. Or even superb to them in some aspects. I mean they are not only music but the testimony of contact with God as well.

And Haydn's God present in all the things close at hand and bringing us all this extatic joy whenever we see him (and we see him in all things - but probably his presence is most evident in consonanses)... I must say this is model more perfect that those profound Gods of Bach, Beethoven or Bruckner.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 18, 2012, 04:35:49 PM

Ive been working this month on trying to collect all the little miscellaneous disks of Baryton Trios. I would like to hear what other groups than the Esterházy Ensemble have to say. And let's face it, I have CDCDCD just like most of us do... :D

Here is what I have now;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Barytoncovers.jpg)

The top row are all new this month, haven't listened to them yet even. The bottom row are ones I already had, the first three for several years and the last one from late last year.

Does anyone know of any that I've missed out on? In trolling around I haven't seen any others, but that could just mean they will be hard to find... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on January 19, 2012, 02:14:11 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 18, 2012, 04:35:49 PM
Ive been working this month on trying to collect all the little miscellaneous disks of Baryton Trios. I would like to hear what other groups than the Esterházy Ensemble have to say. And let's face it, I have CDCDCD just like most of us do... :D
(...)
Does anyone know of any that I've missed out on? In trolling around I haven't seen any others, but that could just mean they will be hard to find... :)

There was na old Hungaroton LP with Janos Liebner playing nos 53, 73, 94, 97, 109 but I don't know if it was ever released as CD. Probably not.

Here is a review of it (january1972!):

http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/January%201972/74/738842/HAYDN.+Trios+for+baryton,+viola+and+cello.+Jinos+Liebner+(baryton),+Gsibor+Fias+(viola),+Laszlio+Mezii+(cello).+Hungaroton+SLPX11478+(L1.63)

Here is the cover:

http://www.platte11.de/article/joseph-haydn-barytontrios

And here you can listen to samples of it:

http://www.hungarotonmusic.com/classical/trios-for-barytone-p4124.html

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 19, 2012, 04:09:24 AM

"Papa" comes to Boston. (http://www.seenandheard-international.com/2012/01/18/marcelo-lehninger-replaces-james-levine-conducting-the-bso-with-excellent-assurance/)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 19, 2012, 04:18:43 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 19, 2012, 04:09:24 AM
"Papa" comes to Boston. (http://www.seenandheard-international.com/2012/01/18/marcelo-lehninger-replaces-james-levine-conducting-the-bso-with-excellent-assurance/)

Good review. Nice to see Gurn and GMG getting some press 8)

"....and for that reason a Haydn expert friend in Texas has dubbed them the "Chunnel" symphonies."

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 19, 2012, 04:20:33 AM

Well, it was ~~largely~~ entirely due to the ~~fiendish~~ Haus that I had actually heard two recordings of the 88^th, before I even knew that the symphony would be on this program : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 19, 2012, 04:36:57 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 19, 2012, 04:20:33 AM
Well, it was ~~largely~~ entirely due to the ~~fiendish~~ Haus that I had actually heard two recordings of the 88^th, before I even knew that the symphony would be on this program : )

Nice review; sounds like you had a good time with both pieces. 88 is sure a good'un, and reading that also reminds me of the virtue of the key of G major as it pertains to Haydn. 4 of my most favored late symphonies, 88, 92, 94 & 100 are all in G major. Coincidence? Maybe, or possibly the means of expression or the inspiration that G major gives Haydn speaks to me personally more than some others. :-\ :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 19, 2012, 04:42:51 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 19, 2012, 04:36:57 AM
Nice review; sounds like you had a good time with both pieces.

Aye. As a fellow composer said of the program (I paraphrase), it's something of a let-down when there's a new piece on the program, and it's the old music which impresses as more colorful and imaginative.

Of course, the upside is, the Haydn and Strauss were set off to their good advantage ; )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 19, 2012, 04:49:09 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 19, 2012, 04:36:57 AM
Nice review; sounds like you had a good time with both pieces. 88 is sure a good'un, and reading that also reminds me of the virtue of the key of G major as it pertains to Haydn. 4 of my most favored late symphonies, 88, 92, 94 & 100 are all in G major. Coincidence? Maybe, or possibly the means of expression or the inspiration that G major gives Haydn speaks to me personally more than some others. :-\ :)

8)

I do a mental ten most listened to Haydn symphonies every once in awhile, and almost always a good portion of them are in a Minor key (26, 39, 44, 52, 80), or will feature several of his D Major ones (6, 53, 73, 86, 101), so yes, Gurn, I think that although we can appreciate all of his symphonies, we are as individuals most certainly drawn to a particular style or sound.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 19, 2012, 06:21:01 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 19, 2012, 04:49:09 AM

I do a mental ten most listened to Haydn symphonies every once in awhile, and almost always a good portion of them are in a Minor key (26, 39, 44, 52, 80), or will feature several of his D Major ones (6, 53, 73, 86, 101), so yes, Gurn, I think that although we can appreciate all of his symphonies, we are as individuals most certainly drawn to a particular style or sound.

Yes, the minor keys (doesn't matter which key, just the mode) are certainly attractive to the ear. And the D major use that key because it is gracious to the instruments (natural winds, in the day, and the open strings on violins sound their best too. There was a whole genre, with every composer in Vienna for 50 years or more contributing, called now "Viennese C major" because they shared things like a great maestoso and grandeur. Mozart's "Jupiter" is an example. And Haydn's #38 and 41.

Some will argue that the attraction comes from the composer's inspiration, others that it comes from the listener's particular ear. I don't know, but I think it is interesting anyway. I wonder if others than us have a similar experience?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 19, 2012, 06:53:38 AM

Wikipedia - D Major

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D_major

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 19, 2012, 07:08:43 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 19, 2012, 06:53:38 AM
Wikipedia - D Major

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D_major

Nice article. Guess it would be interesting to see what they have to say about C and G... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on January 19, 2012, 08:27:11 AM

I have been enjoying this recording very much lately, which despite using MI it conveys Haydn very nicely, IMO -

[asin]B000059GRI[/asin]

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 19, 2012, 08:36:46 AM

Quote from: mszczuj on January 19, 2012, 02:14:11 AM
There was na old Hungaroton LP with Janos Liebner playing nos 53, 73, 94, 97, 109 but I don't know if it was ever released as CD. Probably not.

Here is a review of it (january1972!):

http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/January%201972/74/738842/HAYDN.+Trios+for+baryton,+viola+and+cello.+Jinos+Liebner+(baryton),+Gsibor+Fias+(viola),+Laszlio+Mezii+(cello).+Hungaroton+SLPX11478+(L1.63)

Here is the cover:

http://www.platte11.de/article/joseph-haydn-barytontrios

And here you can listen to samples of it:

http://www.hungarotonmusic.com/classical/trios-for-barytone-p4124.html

Ah, thanks for that. I don't see it anywhere as a CD. I bet it was the first effort to play these works on actual instruments. Although maybe not. I see that Munich Trio disk that I got, the baryton is listed to have been made in 1934, which fairly amazed me!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on January 19, 2012, 09:41:56 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 19, 2012, 08:36:46 AM
I see that Munich Trio disk that I got, the baryton is listed to have been made in 1934, which fairly amazed me!

Here are some informations about this instrument:

http://www.orpheon.org/OldSite/Seiten/Instruments/other/baryton.htm

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 19, 2012, 09:46:02 AM

QuoteThe correct name for this instrument is actually "Viola di Pardone."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 19, 2012, 09:49:12 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 19, 2012, 07:08:43 AM
Nice article. Guess it would be interesting to see what they have to say about C and G... :D

8)

C major... my favorite composition in this key is Schubert's String Quintet. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 19, 2012, 09:52:00 AM

Gurn, you mentioned #92 being one of your favorites, have you heard...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61J3DRQJ1KL._SS300_.jpg)

...an exciting performance, rocket-fast finale.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 19, 2012, 09:54:28 AM

Quote from: mszczuj on January 19, 2012, 09:41:56 AM
Here are some informations about this instrument:

http://www.orpheon.org/OldSite/Seiten/Instruments/other/baryton.htm

That was a fascinating page, thanks! Maybe Sonic Dave will get over to see it too, I know he would be fascinated. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 19, 2012, 09:56:57 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 19, 2012, 09:52:00 AM
Gurn, you mentioned #92 being one of your favorites, have you heard...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61J3DRQJ1KL._SS300_.jpg)

...an exciting performance, rocket-fast finale.

Oh yes, that's a fine disk. I bought it for the rarely recorded Scena de Berenice, so the symphonies were a bonus. And a fine bonus at that. :)

Mine is this one:

[asin]B001ONSWDO[/asin]

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 19, 2012, 10:02:25 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 19, 2012, 09:49:12 AM
C major... my favorite composition in this key is Schubert's String Quintet. ;D

I find it hard to choose from among the Chopin Prelude Op. 28 № 1, the Tchaikovsky Serenade for strings . . . and the « Leningrad » Symphony : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 19, 2012, 11:40:35 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 19, 2012, 10:02:25 AM
I find it hard to choose from among the Chopin Prelude Op. 28 № 1, the Tchaikovsky Serenade for strings . . . and the « Leningrad » Symphony : )

My favorites would be Brian 7, Schmidt 4, Haydn Bear, Mozart PC21, Beethoven Waldstein, Sibelius 3

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 19, 2012, 07:03:54 PM

With Haydn, the C Major would be a tie between his Maria Theresia or #50.

Another, one of my favorite concertos, Vivaldi's Mandolin Concerto in C, RV425... also, Prokofiev's 4th symphony, both versions.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on January 19, 2012, 08:44:55 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 19, 2012, 11:40:35 AM
Brian 7

Infiltration alert! Infiltration alert! Infiltration alert! Infiltration alert! Infiltration alert! Infiltration alert! Infiltration alert!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 20, 2012, 01:25:32 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on January 19, 2012, 08:44:55 PM
Infiltration alert! Infiltration alert! Infiltration alert! Infiltration alert! Infiltration alert! Infiltration alert! Infiltration alert!

Yes, we Brianites are like the Red Menace >:D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on January 20, 2012, 03:53:56 AM

Quote from: Arnold on January 19, 2012, 08:27:11 AM
I have been enjoying this recording very much lately, which despite using MI it conveys Haydn very nicely, IMO -

[asin]B000059GRI[/asin]

:)

After reading a bit more about this recording, what I had assumed was a entirely modern instrument recording, an assumption which is not exactly accurate: the orchestra is tuned down to HIP specifications, and the horns are PI and (from what I can determine) the strings are as well, i.e. using period bows, gut strings and techniques. However, Pletnev is plyaing a modern piano and incorporating his own cadenzas in most pieces, in which he displays decidedly non-period elements.

This is not a problem for me, although one reviewer complained about it; since I do not rate a performance or recording based on the cadenza. Rather, what comes across in these performances is an approach that fits comfortably within the HIP camp, but with a solo instrumentalist who, while simpatico with the performance practices of the 18th C., is playing an instrument with a modern sound palette.

I like it; but can understand why others may prefer something else and may find this recording neither here nor there.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 20, 2012, 04:15:40 AM

Quote from: Arnold on January 20, 2012, 03:53:56 AM
After reading a bit more about this recording, what I had assumed was a entirely modern instrument recording, an assumption which is not exactly accurate: the orchestra is tuned down to HIP specifications, and the horns are PI and (from what I can determine) the strings are as well, i.e. using period bows, gut strings and techniques. However, Pletnev is plyaing a modern piano and incorporating his own cadenzas in most pieces, in which he displays decidedly non-period elements.

This is not a problem for me, although one reviewer complained about it; since I do not rate a performance or recording based on the cadenza. Rather, what comes across in these performances is an approach that fits comfortably within the HIP camp, but with a solo instrumentalist who, while simpatico with the performance practices of the 18th C., is playing an instrument with a modern sound palette.

I like it; but can understand why others may prefer something else and may find this recording neither here nor there.

:)

Thanks for the full-disclosure background on that, Arnold. I have seen that disk around, but even though I like PLetnev, I don't visualize him as a Haydnist, so I veered off. I suspect that I would be one of those in your last sentence. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 20, 2012, 06:03:08 AM

I absolutely fell in love with this movement. It's on repeat, again and again. :)

http://www.youtube.com/v/YvLeuLrdhog&feature=plcp&context=C3ac4388UDOEgsToPDskJQxWjDnQelj3eig_8649lf

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 20, 2012, 06:10:23 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 20, 2012, 06:03:08 AM
I absolutely fell in love with this movement. It's on repeat, again and again. :)

http://www.youtube.com/v/YvLeuLrdhog&feature=plcp&context=C3ac4388UDOEgsToPDskJQxWjDnQelj3eig_8649lf

Is there a more archetypical Late 18th Century sound than that? Other than Boccherini's "Famous Minuet", of course. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 20, 2012, 06:18:03 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 20, 2012, 06:10:23 AM
Is there a more archetypical Late 18th Century sound than that? Other than Boccherini's "Famous Minuet", of course. :)

8)

Yes, there is.

http://www.youtube.com/v/lH71dxtzNEo&feature=related

The middle section, with its hurdy-gurdy rythm and feeling is absolutely ravishing.

If all other concertos for lira organizzata are like this then I must have the whole set asap no matter the costs. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 20, 2012, 06:53:29 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 20, 2012, 06:18:03 AM
Yes, there is.

http://www.youtube.com/v/lH71dxtzNEo&feature=related

The middle section, with its hurdy-gurdy rythm and feeling is absolutely ravishing.

If all other concertos for lira organizzata are like this then I must have the whole set asap no matter the costs. ;D

One of them even has the Andante from the Military Symphony (minus Turkish Percussion, of course). It is very difficult to find performances that actually use the liras though. That one I rec, that comes from the Big Box, is the only complete set that I am aware of. Ensemble Limoges only does 1 of them... :'(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 20, 2012, 08:06:42 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 20, 2012, 06:18:03 AM

If all other concertos for lira organizzata are like this then I must have the whole set asap no matter the costs. ;D

Interesting that the instrument above should become a topic of discussion - :) I was just listening to the disc below yesterday and this morning - only own an MP3 download which I 'burned' to a CD-R. For those interested, there is a LOT of discussion w/ pics in the 'Old Musical Instrument' Thread HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11638.120.html) - also w/ the help of Tony, I was able to get the liner notes from an LP that he owned - links are available to those interested! :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnLiraRuf/1193441286_vaeDb-O.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on January 20, 2012, 08:21:33 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 20, 2012, 08:06:42 AM
Interesting that the instrument above should become a topic of discussion - :) I was just listening to the disc below yesterday and this morning - only own an MP3 download which I 'burned' to a CD-R. For those interested, there is a LOT of discussion w/ pics in the 'Old Musical Instrument' Thread HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11638.120.html) - also w/ the help of Tony, I was able to get the liner notes from an LP that he owned - links are available to those interested! :D

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnLiraRuf/1193441286_vaeDb-O.jpg)

Besides the above referenced wonderful recording, I also have this one:

[asin]B000P46Q86[/asin]

Which, unfortunately is showing up unavailable as of today, but is available as a download. This one I find a bit more pleasing; at least according to my tastes, and it has a nice variety of works.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 20, 2012, 08:28:27 AM

Quote from: Arnold on January 20, 2012, 08:21:33 AM
Besides the above referenced wonderful recording, I also have this one:

[asin]B000P46Q86[/asin]

Which, unfortunately is showing up unavailable as of today, but is available as a download. This one I find a bit more pleasing; at least according to my tastes, and it has a nice variety of works.

:)

I have been touting the Hugo Ruf disk in my essays (1786 & 87, IIRC). It is only available (short of as a million dollar collector's item) as part of the Big Box, since Brilliant licensed it, but only released it there.

The Ensemble Limoges disk is excellent, but it only has one concerto played on lira, which is the one that Florestan posted the Youtube of. They built 2 lira for that disk, if they would only use them to record a complete traversal of both the concerti and the notturni, then it would be worth what it must have cost. They sound lovely!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on January 20, 2012, 08:38:04 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 20, 2012, 08:28:27 AM
I have been touting the Hugo Ruf disk in my essays (1786 & 87, IIRC). It is only available (short of as a million dollar collector's item) as part of the Big Box, since Brilliant licensed it, but only released it there.

The Ensemble Limoges disk is excellent, but it only has one concerto played on lira, which is the one that Florestan posted the Youtube of. They built 2 lira for that disk, if they would only use them to record a complete traversal of both the concerti and the notturni, then it would be worth what it must have cost. They sound lovely!

8)

Ah, I had not played the Youtube clip nor read carefully enough your comments about Ensemble Limoges in response to his posting ... But you are absolutely correct that the Ensemble Limoges only do the one concerto - but I like the other works so much that I do not mind not having more of the concerti - especially since I have the Ruf recording.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 20, 2012, 08:38:15 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 20, 2012, 08:28:27 AM

The Ensemble Limoges disk is excellent, but it only has one concerto played on lira, which is the one that Florestan posted the Youtube of. They built 2 lira for that disk, if they would only use them to record a complete traversal of both the concerti and the notturni, then it would be worth what it must have cost. They sound lovely!

AGREE! I'll put that disc on next, and Gurn's suggestion makes sense to me! ;D 8) Dave

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 20, 2012, 05:29:26 PM

Part 38

1789
Not many works this year, but nonetheless an interesting year anyway. The last year in servitude. The winter in Vienna with Mozart and Marianne Genzinger (no, hey, we're just friends!) And all the while, fame growing.

This year we see the final symphony before the London ones. Certainly the last that Nicolaus the Magnificent would have heard (if he heard it at all). And it is one of my all time favorites, Hob 92 "The Oxford". Eventually, Haydn carried it with him to London, and offered it to be played as a new symphony (which it was to them) because his first London ones weren't ready yet. Then he took it to Oxford with him and offered it to them as his doctoral thesis, and it was performed there also.

Last year's return to the keyboard trio continues this year. The set of 4 composed across this span solidify Haydn's newfound interest in the genre and set a solid basis for the great group to come in the 1790's. Once again, I urge you all to move beyond the London Trios to really hear what Haydn was doing at this time. He was a mature master craftsman with ideas that went well beyond what any of his peers (save Mozart) had going on. For me, this is the beauty of the chronological approach to listening. Most especially if you include other composers in the mix. If you do so, it isn't hard to hear who is working on last year's ideas and who is molding next year's!

There are two especially nice solo keyboard works this year. The sonata #58 (Hob 48) in C major, like all of his standalone keyboard works it is a little bit more special. And the Fantasy in C, the second of 3 non-sonatas that were groundbreaking in one way or another. The wide-ranging tonal contrasts and rondo-like structures in this work are especially lovely.

The music of 1789;

Hob 01_092 Symphony #92 in G
Freiburger Barockorchester / Jacobs
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HMJacobs91_92_scenacover.jpg)

Hob 15_13 Trio in c for Piano & Strings
Hob 15_14 Trio in Ab for Piano & Strings
Trio 1790
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/1790v2.jpg)

Hob 16_48 Sonata #58 in C for Fortepiano
Carole Cerasi
Hob 17_04 Fantasia in C for Keyboard
Tom Beghin (Copy of 1791 Walter Fortepiano w/ Prell action)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardCerasicover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardBeghincover-1.jpg)

Hob 24b_14 Aria for Tenor "Se tu mi sprezzi, ingrata" for Il Cavaliere (Ten) in "I finti eredi" by Sarti
Manfred Huss / Haydn Sinfonietta Wien - Bernard Richter
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussOperaatEsterhazacover.jpg)

Well, there is no shortage of recorded performances of the 'Oxford' symphony, PI or MI! I have gone totally out of control here and chosen the Freiburg Baroque / Jacobs performance, not only because they play it well, but I savor the idea of using a HIP performance that actually fits the anti-HIP stereotype! :D Yes, it is pretty darned fast in the finale (but the players have no problem with it). It ain't your father's 'Oxford'. But if you want one that you and he would both love, as a backup, and for the MI's out there, I strongly recommend this one;
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnBernstein8892.jpg)

IMO, there is no better MI version out there. :)

I don't see me swaying from my initial choice of the Trio 1790 for these works. There are plenty of good versions out there though, so don't you be swayed either; stick with what you like. If you are still in the shopping phase though, the recently released 9 disk box set of this groups complete traversal was on offer this morning for less than $50.US. That's a gift! :)

For my solo keyboard choices, I decided on Carole Cerasi, whose superb disk has a mix of performances on both a clavichord and a very nice original 1795 Schantz fortepiano which she really plays well. I find Brautigam to be a little too forceful in this piece, although Kojima on the Brilliant set and especially Staier on DHM also play it nicely. Cerasi's is a nice disk to have though.

In the Fantasia, I went with Beghin. I really like the sound of his Walter reproduction, and the Prell action seems to help him to avoid the legato which is not what this work is asking for. As a second choice, I love Schornsheim in this one too, it was hard to make a choice as I think she may have the playing of it perfected while his instrument totally intrigues me. Brautigam takes it at 90 mph, but Oort has it nice tempo too. His Variations & Klavierstücke will graciously repay your investment here, too.

And finally, the invaluable Manfred Huss saves this lovely aria for us, one of the very last that Haydn composed for Esterháza Opera. Sarti was a major name of the day, and I can't help but feel that this insertion aria could only enhance that reputation. :)

So there is 1789. The Fin de l'Age is upon us. And England will never be the same. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 20, 2012, 05:46:19 PM

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnLiraRuf/1193441286_vaeDb-O.jpg)

I know there aren't too many iTunes fan here, but I did find this available there for $7.99.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on January 20, 2012, 06:02:12 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 20, 2012, 05:46:19 PM
I know there aren't too many iTunes fan here, but I did find this available there for $7.99.

Well I'm one thanks for posting Greg. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 20, 2012, 06:30:56 PM

Quote from: DavidW on January 20, 2012, 06:02:12 PM
Well I'm one thanks for posting Greg. :)

Your welcome, David. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 20, 2012, 06:37:20 PM

Just a style quibble — "nonetheless an interesting year anyway" feels burdened with some degree of redundancy, yes?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 20, 2012, 06:44:53 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 20, 2012, 06:37:20 PM
Just a style quibble — "nonetheless an interesting year anyway" feels burdened with some degree of redundancy, yes?

At least you know I didn't cut and paste it out of Wikipedia. :D The real question is not the style of writing, it is whether the content is sensible. I submit that it is. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: nesf on January 21, 2012, 05:47:57 AM

I made the mistake of getting some of Haydn's string quartets. Now I want that damned Brilliant Classics box set.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 21, 2012, 05:49:50 AM

Quote from: nesf on January 21, 2012, 05:47:57 AM
I made the mistake of getting some of Haydn's string quartets. Now I want that damned Brilliant Classics box set.

Yes, there you have it. As our nomad friends say "You let the camel get his nose under the edge of your tent, and pretty soon he is sleeping under your rug..." :D :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 21, 2012, 07:31:37 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 20, 2012, 05:46:19 PM
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnLiraRuf/1193441286_vaeDb-O.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnBassetHorns/1184622767_GPVpr-O.jpg)

I know there aren't too many iTunes fan here, but I did find this available there for $7.99.

Well, believe that my MP3 purchase came from Amazon - if not already done check out the links I posted not too long back in this thread - quite interesting - :)

But this recording stimulated my interested in others by Haydn either using unusual instruments no longer played or some non-expected instruments in transcriptions - now listening to the disc inserted above (right):

Basset Horn Trios w/ Le Trio di Bassetto - about a half dozen of the baryton trios transcribed for 3 basset horns; musical glasses (plucked) are used to simulate the sympathetic strings of the baryton - unusually pleasant - REALLY! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 21, 2012, 10:59:30 AM

Part 39

1790
What a year! First, life in the Empire was disrupted in February by the death of Emperor Joseph II. Love him or hate him, he was the single most important force in molding the lifestyle of his times. Five days later, while the country was in mourning, Nicolaus's wife died also. Depression seized the Prince, and Haydn spent the next several months trying to cheer him up with various musical entertainments, but to no avail. On September 28 Nicolaus also died. Change was coming, and fast.

Early in the year, Haydn left Vienna for the country. He had been communing with the Genzinger's and Mozart, the latter for several reasons, not least that he was preparing Le nozze di Figaro for production at Esterháza. One of his most famous letters, written to Marianne upon his arrival home, showed for the first time the depth of his dissatisfaction stemming from being so isolated for 10-11 months a year. Once one cuts through the element of feeling sorry for himself, the remainder is a sad testament to staying too long in one place, occasioned by his sense of duty to the Prince.

"Here I sit in my wilderness – forsaken – like a poor waif – almost without human society – sad – full of the memories of past glorious days – yes! past, alas! – and who knows if those days will return again? Those wonderful parties? – where the whole circle is one heart, one soul – all the beautiful musical evenings? ... For three days I didn't know if I was Kapellmeister or Kapell-servant. Nothing could console me, my whole house was in confusion, my pianoforte, which I usually love, was perverse and disobedient ... I could sleep only a little, even my dreams persecuted me; and then, just when I was happily dreaming that I was listening to "Le nozze di Figaro", the horrible North wind woke me and almost blew my nightcap off my head ... Alas! alas! I thought to myself as I was eating here, instead of that delicious slice of beef, a chunk of a 50-year-old cow ... Here in Eszterháza no one asks me: 'Would you like some chocolate, with milk or without? ... What may I offer you, my dear Haydn, would you like a vanilla or a strawberry ice?'"

Of course, such an irrepressible spirit couldn't end on that note;

"I am gradually getting used again to country life, and yesterday I composed [studierte] for the first time, and felt indeed quite Haydnish"

But that was in early February. The next few months put that all in the shade.

Immediately upon Nicolaus' death, his son and heir Anton, no lover of music, dissolved the orchestra and operatic troupe and sent everyone on their way, with the exception of Haydn, Tomasini and the Harmonie (wind band). For his part, Haydn wasted not a moment in heading off to Vienna where he shared an apartment with an old friend.

Other wheels were in motion within days of the news of Nicolaus' death. Johan Peter Salomon, a Bonn-born violinist and big-time London concert producer, was traveling in Europe at the time on business. He immediately headed out to Vienna, and within days was knocking on Haydn's door, with the famous phrase "I'm Salomon, and I've come to take you to London". It seems that Haydn paused for as long as 30 seconds before saying "OK, let's off then" and so it went. :D

There were happy and sad goodbye's in the next few weeks, the one with Mozart being the most poignant ("I fear I shall never see you again, Papa") but on December 15, the pair hit the road, and on Jan. 1, 1791 (isn't the symbolism wonderful?), Haydn stepped off the Channel packet boat and into a new life.

The music of 1790;

Hob 03_63 Quartet in D for Strings Op. 64 #5
Hob 03_64 Quartet in Eb for Strings Op. 64 #6
Hob 03_65 Quartet in C for Strings Op. 64 #1
Hob 03_66 Quartet in G for Strings Op. 64 #4
Hob 03_67 Quartet in Bb for Strings Op. 64 #3
Hob 03_68 Quartet in b for Strings Op. 64 #2
   Quatuor Festetics
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnFesteticsOp64cover.jpg)

Hob 15_15 Trio in G for Flute, Cello & Fortepiano
Hob 15_16 Trio in D for Flute, Cello & Fortepiano
Hob 15_17 Trio in F for Flute, Cello & Fortepiano
   La Gaia Scienza / Marco Brolli (Traverso)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnLaGaiaFluteTrioscover.jpg)

Hob 16_49 Sonata #59 in Eb for Fortepiano
   Joanna Leach
Hob 17_05 Theme & Variations in C for Keyboard
   Jan Vermeulen
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardLeach1.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnLiederVermeulencover.jpg)

Hob 24b_15 Aria for Soprano "Infelice sventurata" for Beatrice (Sop) - "I due supposti conti" by Cimarosa
   L'Orfeo Baroque Orchestra / Gaigg Nuria Rial
Hob 24b_17 Aria for Mezzosoprano "Il meglio mio carattere" for Merlina (Sop) - "L'impressario in angustie" by Cimarosa
   L'Orfeo Baroque Orchestra / Gaigg Margot Oitzinger
Hob 24b_18 Aria for Mezzosoprano "La moglie quando è buona" for Giannina (Sop) - "Giannina e Bernadone" by Cimarosa
   L'Orfeo Baroque Orchestra / Gaigg Margot Oitzinger
Hob 24b_19 Aria for Soprano "La mia pace, Oh Dio" for Costanza (Sop) - "L'amore artigiano" by Gassman
   L'Orfeo Baroque Orchestra / Gaigg Nuria Rial
Hob 24b_23 Aria for Mezzosoprano "Via siate bonino" for Soprano - Opera unknown
   L'Orfeo Baroque Orchestra / Gaigg Margot Oitzinger
Hob 24b_16 Aria for Tenor "Da che penso a maritarmi" for Titta (Ten) - "L'amore artigiano" by Gassman
   Manfred Huss / Haydn Sinfonietta Wien - Bernard Richter
Hob 24b_22 Aria for Tenor "Tornate pur mia bella" for Tenor - Opera unknown
   Manfred Huss / Haydn Sinfonietta Wien - Bernard Richter
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Rialcover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussOperaatEsterhazacover.jpg)

Hob 26a_39 Lied with Keyboard - 'Trachten will ich nicht auf Erden' ('I do not want to dress the earth')
   Elly Ameling / Jorg Demus
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnAmelingDemusSongscover.jpg)

Hob 26b_02 Cantata for Soprano and Fortepiano "Arianna a Naxos"
   Andrea Folan / Tom Beghin
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/BeghinLieder.jpg)

We will start off this year with string quartets, since unusually enough, there are no symphonies to discuss. Probably more from a lack of occasion than a lack of inspiration or demand. The Opus 64 quartets, performed in this instance by Quatuor Festetics for my listening pleasure, are among the most entertaining sets extant. Among my own personal favorites are #5, called "The Lark", but in all likelihood also the quartet that John Bland brought home to London that should be "The Razor". In any case, little features like the opening movement in which the second violin, viola & cello start out with a perfectly full featured military march-like theme, which is suddenly overtaken octaves higher by the soaring first violin, which not only led to the name, "The Lark", but also prominently displayed the mastery involved in making a foreground turn seamlessly into a background. By this point in his career, little things like this were everyday occurrences for Haydn, and yet still beyond most other composers. I think you will like the Festetics version, but not to overlook the very eloquently stated Mosaiques here, either.

This year's set of trios, composed on commission from the above-mentioned Bland of London, features a flauto traverso in place of the violin. Probably for commercial reasons since the flute was very popular in England at the time. In any case, these are especially good works which provide plenty of entertainment for both the players and the listener. There are many good PI versions out there, but my favorite by far is featured here. La Gaia Scienza are quite simply a first-rate ensemble, and the recording engineers at Winter & Winter are up to the task of putting the sound on media in a way that makes you feel you were there. Camerata Köln on cpo is a nice alternative choice since you will want it anyway for the Hob 4:1-4 pieces that come up soon. Just sayin'... :)

The sonata Hob 49 (Landon #59) in Eb is the big sonata that Haydn spent a lot of time on for Marianne Genzinger. The second movement Adagio is richly beautiful and the entire is clearly inspired by the dedicatee. I decided on Joanna Leach for this because I wanted a lady playing it (as Haydn did) and I love the sound of her square piano, it seems to represent Genzinger at the keyboard particularly well. But then, that's just me... :)

I also like these little Theme & Variations of Hob 17:5. There are many nice versions available, even Brautigam takes it at a reasonable pace (not knocking him, he's among my favorites, but sometimes he takes off running!). The choice of Vermeulen was not difficult, he is a wonderful pianist, and this disk, primarily of Lieder, also contains a couple of solo piano pieces, of which this is one. I think if you have access to it you will agree with me. Otherwise, Schornsheim, Oort, Beghin or Brautigam all do a nice job with it.

Whoa! A nice half-dozen of insertion arias to finish off the genre for us. Not hard to see that right to the end of Esterháza time, Haydn was busy with operas. These two disks featured have paid us handsome dividends over the last decade. Rial's mezzo partner, Margot Oitzinger, does a lovely job on these few remaining works. As does tenor Richter performing with Huss.

We return to Ameling & Demus for an unusual standalone Lied with keyboard, 'Trachten will ich nicht auf Erden'. I hope one of our German speaking friends will give us some ideas about that... Be it as it will, this is a very nice song and performed as nicely as you would expect by Ameling & Demus.

Finally, we come to one of Haydn's most famous vocal works, the cantata for Soprano & Keyboard Arianna on Naxos. Probably actually completed in 1789, but not performed or published until 1790. Here, Haydn follows the typical form of Italian cantatas of the day, writing four movements; Recitative, slow aria (but ending Presto), recitative, faster aria (a vocal rondo). The story is very well known at that time, although this particular text is by Anonymous. Also unlike opera at the time, which wasn't allowed to end on a sad note, a cantata wasn't restricted by that convention. So we are OK that it ends with Arianna throwing herself over a cliff onto the rocks below, yes? :) I like, as in everything else they touch, Folan & Beghin in this work. They feel to me to hit it just right. However, it is frequently enough recorded that you can likely find a version which is perfect for you. This is a nice piece worth looking for.

So, there is 1790. From this point on, for the next 15 years or so, Haydn is the center of the cultural universe so to speak. For now, let's enjoy one, last provincial year of great music. If one wanted only to have a representative year to listen to, the lack of symphonies is the only thing that keeps this one from being tops. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 21, 2012, 08:11:24 PM

Quote from: nesf on January 21, 2012, 05:47:57 AM
I made the mistake of getting some of Haydn's string quartets. Now I want that damned Brilliant Classics box set.

Gurn put it well with his camel tale. Those string quartets were nigh unto a rabbit-hole for me . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on January 21, 2012, 08:22:33 PM

Quote from: nesf on January 21, 2012, 05:47:57 AM
I made the mistake of getting some of Haydn's string quartets. Now I want that damned Brilliant Classics box set.

Nice set to have....however, I would promote seeking out individual recordings from various ensembles and conductors. Haydn's strength lies in the performances.....more so than others for me. His music lends itself cleanly to interpretations of those who find him and play him. Where performances for others such as Beethoven and Mozart can vary greatly and still hold you with either prong, Haydn performances, at least for me, can have chasms found in the subtle differences between performances. His music is "clean" and you will find that the recs here may lead you down this centering path. At least they have for me. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: nesf on January 22, 2012, 05:18:23 AM

Quote from: Bogey on January 21, 2012, 08:22:33 PM

Nice set to have....however, I would promote seeking out individual recordings from various ensembles and conductors. Haydn's strength lies in the performances.....more so than others for me. His music lends itself cleanly to interpretations of those who find him and play him. Where performances for others such as Beethoven and Mozart can vary greatly and still hold you with either prong, Haydn performances, at least for me, can have chasms found in the subtle differences between performances. His music is "clean" and you will find that the recs here may lead you down this centering path. At least they have for me. :)

My worry about going the individual recording route is the expense it incurs in exposing myself to a lot of a composer. I'm all for picking up particularly good performances of symphonies, the better string quartets etc but I always worry that I'm missing out on some obscure piece that isn't well loved but that I'll fall in love with due to my own idiosyncrasies.

Not that I'm remotely planning on picking up the Haydn box in the near future or anything!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on January 22, 2012, 07:37:37 AM

Quote from: nesf on January 22, 2012, 05:18:23 AM
My worry about going the individual recording route is the expense it incurs in exposing myself to a lot of a composer. I'm all for picking up particularly good performances of symphonies, the better string quartets etc but I always worry that I'm missing out on some obscure piece that isn't well loved but that I'll fall in love with due to my own idiosyncrasies.

Not that I'm remotely planning on picking up the Haydn box in the near future or anything!

Hmmm. Do not know how many times I posted something like this and sooner than later occured. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: nesf on January 22, 2012, 07:55:37 AM

Quote from: Bogey on January 22, 2012, 07:37:37 AM
Hmmm. Do not know how many times I posted something like this and sooner than later occured. ;D

The thought of ripping 150 CDs is enough to put me off for a while at least... ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on January 22, 2012, 09:31:34 AM

Quote from: nesf on January 22, 2012, 07:55:37 AM
The thought of ripping 150 CDs is enough to put me off for a while at least... ;)

If you find yourself buying too much, take a month furlow from the board. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 22, 2012, 11:39:39 AM

Wisdom! ; )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: nesf on January 22, 2012, 11:44:06 AM

Quote from: Bogey on January 22, 2012, 09:31:34 AM
If you find yourself buying too much, take a month furlow from the board. :D

Yeah I figured out that much already! I must teach my wife how to block certain sites at the router...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 26, 2012, 04:29:19 PM

Other than the baryton trios that I posted last week, I have found a few interesting disks this month, some of which some of you may find interesting as well.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHarnoncourtMassescover.jpg)

There have been several recommendations for works from this set here. I actually only had one disk already covered (the 7 Last Words oratorio version which is already my top pick), so at the bargain price it was a no-brainer. Looking forward to the Nelson Mass, and the Harmoniemesse too. :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSmithson4tetOp77103cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSmithson4tetDoriancover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKuijken4tetOp76cover.jpg)

I have always had a hard time (as you have noted already) in staying with a full cycle of works (no matter how well I like them) without straying out of bounds on a regular basis. I have the Smithson Quartet playing Mozart, Beethoven & Boccherini (with Bylsma!) already anyway, but I wanted to hear what they had to say about Haydn. The DHM disk is readily available for a great price (in USA at least), and the Dorian digipak is a brand new release; seeing it is what prompted this excursion to start with. The Dorian has Op 9 #4 in d minor, one of the very best early quartets, along with 2 of Op 17. It is working its way up tonight's playlist!

The Op 76 by the Kuijken's is a collector's item, plain and simple. I have been shopping it for nearly 2 years trying to find a combination of condition and price that I could live with. I finally pressured an eBay seller into giving me a good deal, hope it lives up to my expectations now! :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnCreationMcCreeshcover.jpg)

Finally, as we get closer to discussion of The Creation, I wanted to bulk up on my collection a bit to have some other possibilities to present. In inquiring about this version yesterday in the "...Considering" thread, I got a couple of very positive comments, so it is now on the way. My only current English version is Hogwood, who is no slouch himself, so this should be good competition for him. Anyway, now we'll have a bit more to talk about when 1798 rolls around. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on January 26, 2012, 07:19:38 PM

Quote from: nesf on January 22, 2012, 11:44:06 AM
Yeah I figured out that much already! I must teach my wife how to block certain sites at the router...

Get leechblock or stay focused app and have it block arkiv, amazon etc after you're on there for x # of minutes! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: nesf on January 26, 2012, 07:31:40 PM

Quote from: DavidW on January 26, 2012, 07:19:38 PM
Get leechblock or stay focused app and have it block arkiv, amazon etc after you're on there for x # of minutes! ;D

Oh my, the difference that'd make to my bank balance... :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on January 27, 2012, 10:52:00 AM

I'm still here!

I've been on a Baroque binge, which usually happens in the winter, but it does complement my study of the classical era very nicely 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 27, 2012, 12:37:54 PM

Quote from: Leo K on January 27, 2012, 10:52:00 AM
I'm still here!

I've been on a Baroque binge, which usually happens in the winter, but it does complement my study of the classical era very nicely 8)

I was wondering. :) Well, Baroque Binge is scarcely an excuse to ignore real music.... 0:)

I'm preparing an essay on music for Lira Organizzate, hope to publish this weekend. If you have any interest in that, prepare to discuss. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 27, 2012, 06:42:02 PM

Notturni for Lira organizzate

Since we first discussed the music for 2 Lira in 1787 when the Naples versions of the concertos were introduced, and through 1790 when the notturnos came along, the confused state of affairs manifested in the literature took no time at all to inject into our discussion too! :)

Among other problems with this particular music, research is difficult because not a whole lot has been written about it. And while what may be true about the concerti is not necessarily true about the notturni, oftentimes what literature exists is a hodgepodge of info about both together.

My sources in this essay are the Oxford Composer Companion to Haydn edited by David Wyn Jones, and the liner notes booklets from these disks, whose authors (and dates) I will name as I get to them:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/NotturniNaples.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Lyraconcertos-1.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HackerNocturnes.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKlockerNotturnicover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Delirium.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnEsterhazyNaplescover.jpg)

It is highly likely that there are other recordings out there of these works, but since I don't have them, well... also, note that I have listed the Huss Concertos disk which is also included in the "Naples and Esterházy" set. The reason I did this is to merely point out where a problem lies. When this discussion began, this came up;

QuoteI'm a little confused about those Notturni. The liner notes for the Huss/Haydn Sinfonietta Wien recording state rather clearly that the original versions written for Naples are lost, and all we actually have are the rewrites FJH did for London. So where did these Naples versions come from?

And I went back and reread the "Naples and Esterházy" notes and they DID say that. :-\ But a couple of evening ago, while I was doing this research, I pulled out the disk I have of just the concerti, and that statement came actually from those notes. And it wasn't the notturni that he was talking about, it was the concerti! That makes a big difference to the discussion, and was only readily noticeable in a book that was only about the concerti.

There aren't any surviving examples of the Lira from the Naples court, but the likely instruments involved are not the ones that look like this;
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/lira-1.jpg) or like this;
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/lira.jpg) sort of like a modified guitar body, so to speak. But the ones that look like this;
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/deuxRD.jpg) which are the ones that were reproduced for the Delirium disk. The reason I say this is that the entire range of the keyboard is needed to play some of Haydn's works (not sure about the other composers' works). There is plenty of information about how these things work, maybe Sonic Dave will provide us a link to one of his articles in the "Old Instruments and Reproductions" thread. For now, I am looking at the works themselves; what versions were composed and when and where they ended up. Little mysteries that show up along the way may or may not be explained, since I haven't found any postulated answers to agree or disagree with yet. :D

I want to start off with a quote from Wyn-Jones in the Oxford book.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/NotturnoarticlefromOxfordWynJones2.jpg)

So this is the 'official' line on these works. It is pretty much in agreement with what we see when we begin collecting them and listening to them.

The earliest recordings that I have are those by Dieter Klöcker / Consortium Classicum on cpo. Despite that the CD was released in 2000, the actual recordings were made in April, 1974. And I would venture to say that the liner notes (written by Klöcker) are concurrent with the original recordings, if only because of some facts he reports which have been superseded by more recent scholarship. An example of this is that Klöcker doesn't know at the time about the origin of the works which we call for convenience #7 & 8 (Hob 2:27 & 28). As far as he knows, there are only 6 works (which we can safely call the First Commission) that were written for 2 Lira etc., and the later 2 may have only been written for London, since they are in the London scoring, sans clarinets. Thus, Consortium Classicum recorded 6 notturni, Hob 25, 26, 32, 31, 29 & 30. The use of 2 small positive organs and clarinets in C (instead of Bb) make this disk an aural treat.

As an interesting display of synchronicity, our next ~~contestant~~ um, representative is the L'Oiseau-Lyre (now a London/Decca re-release) of The Music Party with Alan Hacker playing all 8 notturni in the London versions. They were recorded only 2 months later, in June/July 1974! Its liner notes are written by a fellow named Anthony Short, of whom I know nothing. May be the greatest Haydn scholar of all time, but maybe not. :-\

Anyway, the notes don't shed a lot of light for our purposes, although I mention in passing that he states that Haydn's re-orchestration for London involved the addition of the Baß plus the replacement of the 2 Lira with a flute and oboe.

So now we jump ahead to 1996. In late October of that year, the string group L'Archibudelli led by cellist Anner Bylsma and the wind group Mozzafiato, led by clarinetist Charles Neidich hooked up with producer Wolf Erichson and recorded the 8 London notturni again. Since these are my favorite PI groups, I do profess a fondness for these recordings, but for our purposes the real coup here are the liner notes by ~~god himself~~ H.C. Robbins-Landon. Here are a few definitive highlights from those notes. I am going to paraphrase because I don't like to type quotations since mistakes are intolerable.

It appears that there were two separate commissions. The first, from 1788, involved composing through late '88, '89 and early '90. These consist of #1 (Hob 25), #2 (Hob 26), #3 (Hob 32), #4 (Hob 31), #5 (Hob 29) & #6 (Hob 30). The finale for #6 is completely lost. :( The original autographs, either in Haydn's own hand or in the hand of known copyists from Esterháza exist for these works.

The second set was commissioned in 1790. Of the three, one of them is completely lost. The other are #7 (Hob 28) and #8 (Hob 27). The difference in these, as noted by Klöcker many years earlier, is that there is no indication that they ever had clarinet parts.

That is the best information I have found from any source about these works.

Now the synchronicity again. At approximately the same time as the above disk, only a month earlier in fact, Manfred Huss and his group, Haydn Sinfonietta Wien, got in the studio of Koch/Schwann and also recorded the London notturni. The liner notes in this set are written by Huss, who hasn't written much in English, but has a definitive biography of Haydn in German (apparently there aren't any translators available these days ::) ).

One can see that the confusion problem lies on page 25, where in the last paragraph Huss is talking about re-orchestration for London. In the middle of the discussion about the notturni, he breaks off and says that the "violin part for the concerti probably remained unchanged too... We cannot determine how wide-ranging Haydn's revisions were because the parts of the original versions with lire are all lost..." etc. What happened here is that when they made this compilation, they more or less blended the 2 sets of notes (concerti and notturni) together. In the set for the concerti alone it is much more clear that he is talking about the concerti being lost.

The liner notes of the most recent disk containing any notturni, the endlessly entertaining "Delirium", are of little help throwing light on the chronology subject. However, they do contain 2 notturni, one a London version (Hob 27) and the other a Naples version (Hob 32). This may not be a disk to learn anything from, but it sure is a fine one to listen to! :)

So anyway, that's what I've found out. I'm not done looking though, and also would love to get some results from any of you who have looked into this issue too.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 27, 2012, 07:12:57 PM

Thanks for clearing that up. Possibly one of the few times that textual criticism was needed in discussing liner notes.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2012, 06:33:36 PM

Part 40

1791

Biographically, a whole book could be written on 1791-92. No doubt several have been. :) It was the most famous period of his life, not just for the music but also because he was being seen by the public for the first time. And it was a public who already knew and adored his music long before he arrived. And owned his sheet music and played it at home on their own instruments. England was already, to some small degree (but more than other countries) a place with a middle class who could get educated, could take part in the social life of their capitol, and knew what was going on in the world because of newspapers and travel, both to and from. From the day he landed, Haydn was a hit.

His contract included, besides the symphonies we know so well, that he write an opera first thing. And he did do, a total re-crafting of the Orpheus story. It has some wonderful music, a typically cobbled-together libretto, and a story to explain why it was never performed in Haydn's lifetime. The cabals that we hear stories of in relation to Gluck, Mozart and many others, finally reached out to touch Haydn. The impresario Gallini was the real target, but Haydn's opera was collateral damage. Haydn himself got paid in full in advance, so his own pain was artistic. Anyway, you should like the opera, it's a nice listen.

Meanwhile, the spring concert series went ahead and was a huge success. Since Haydn was writing the opera, he fulfilled his commitment for new works by providing items he brought with him, like symphonies #90 & 92 (he lost track of the manuscript for #91 and couldn't get new parts until the Fall). And the concertos and notturnos for Lira which he had reorchestrated for London. And the Op 64 string quartets. As a little oddity, London was the only place known in which string quartets and other chamber works were played on stage at concerts just like symphonies or other orchestral works. So the Op 64 quartets, played by Salomon et al, were a huge favorite with the crowd.

After the season was over (end of May, <>), the famous Dr. Burney tendered Haydn's name to Oxford for a Doctorate in Music. The trip to Oxford, with the likes of Burney, Salomon and Nancy Storace (Mozart's close friend and the first Susanna in "Figaro") among others, was a smashing success also, where Haydn was required to parade about town for 3 days in his cap and gown ("if my friends in Vienna could have seen me!") and also led 3 concerts on successive days. He presented a symphony as his thesis (generally believed to be Hob 92, thus the name, "The Oxford Symphony") and then the whole party trooped back to London with their new, and very pleased and proud Doctor in tow.

And that was just the first 6 months!

Here is the music of 1791;

Hob 01_095 Symphony in c
Collegium Musicum 90 / Hickox
Hob 01_096 Symphony in D
Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/415ZBKP4GDL.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Hogwood9496cover.jpg)

Hob 02_27 Notturno in C for Wind & Strings (London Version)
Hob 02_28 Notturno in C for Wind & Strings (London Version)
L'Archibudelli / Mozzafiato
Hob 02_29 Notturno in C for Wind & Strings (London Version)
Hob 02_31 Notturno in F for Wind & Strings (London Version)
Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Manfred Huss
Hob 02_32 Notturno in G for Wind & Strings (London Version)
The Music Party / Alan Hacker
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/NotturniNaples.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnEsterhazyNaplescover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HackerNocturnes.jpg)

Hob 07h_1 Concerto in C for 2 Lira Organizzate (London Version)
Hob 07h_2 Concerto in G for 2 Lira Organizzate (London Version)
Hob 07h_3 Concerto in G for 2 Lira Organizzate (London Version)
Hob 07h_4 Concerto in F for 2 Lira Organizzate (London Version)
Hob 07h_5 Concerto in F for 2 Lira Organizzate (London Version)
Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Lyraconcertos-1.jpg) or (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnEsterhazyNaplescover.jpg)

Hob 28_13 Opera L'Anima del Filosofo (o Orfeo ed Euridice)
La Stagione / Schneider Schmiege / McFadden / Prégardien / Schwarz / Netherlands Chamber Chorus
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Animafilosofocover.jpg)

Well, I'm afraid that you will have to bear with my tendency to give every orchestra the opportunity to play for my amusement. For these two symphonies, written in the Spring of 1791 and at least one of them performed by late May, are an amazing feat of composition, given that he was also composing the opera and leading the concerts at the same time!

I have chosen 2 very nice versions for consideration. Before his untimely demise a couple of years ago, Richard Hickox and his PI band, Collegium Musicum 90, had worked half through the London symphonies. I always hoped that someone would continue this series which got off to such a promising start. That not being the case, then at least we will start off with the wonderful c minor symphony. Never let it be said that Haydn didn't know how the wind blows. He knew that "Ancient Music" was still the king in England, and in fact, The King himself, George III, absolutely refused to hear any music other than Handel. So Haydn dug back into his own earlier bag of tricks and pulled out a splendid fugue for this work. I think you will agree that Hickox does it justice here if you decide to go this route. Then for Hob 96, I decided on Hogwood, whose AAM folks kick butt and take names in this rendition of Haydn's first D major symphony in a few years. D major is his most frequently used key by far (24 symphonies), and all of them are true showpieces. This disk with Hob 96 also has Hob 94 in a very nice performance, so worth casting about for.

Of course, the same things that plague me with symphonies do so with the notturni too. Of course, not all of these saw performance in 1791, but they were ready if called upon. And many were. Since there are 3 different performances available to me, I took a selection from each of them. If you haven't got any of them yet, then I can heartily recommend the L'Archibudelli/Mozzafiato recording. It is still pretty generally available at a reasonable cost, and of the bunch, I think the performances are the liveliest and most interesting ones. All of them are good though, this is music to enjoy.

Of the concertos for Lira, recordings are much thinner on the ground. In the original Naples versions, we had Ruf on Brilliant as the only representative. In the London version, in which the 2 Lira are replaced by a flute and an oboe, the only recording I have is the Huss. Fortunately, it is a fine one. Pictured here are the original Koch/Schwann version that I have had for several years, and which is still available here and there. And the BIS reissue, "Music for Prince Esterházy and The King of Naples". Clearly the BIS is the one to get, since you will also net the 6 Scherzandi and the Baryton Octets among other things. Highly recommended set. :)

Finally, the ill-fated opera of the year, L'Anima del Filosofo (o Orfeo ed Euridice) . There is some truly lovely music to be had here. This opera doesn't appear in the "Operas for Esterháza" boxes, of course. There are 2 versions available, of which I have chosen this one by La Stagione Frankfurt. The other is by Hogwood et al, featuring some fine singers led by Bartoli, who sang so nicely for us in Armida recently. I haven't heard this one yet, so comparison is out of the question for now. But I am pleased with the one I have shown you, and think you would be too.

So that's 1791. A busy year indeed, but one which scarcely begins to compare with what was ahead. If one were to queue up the music from this year, a most enjoyable listening session would await. Try it and see. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 29, 2012, 06:59:21 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on January 27, 2012, 06:42:02 PM
Notturni for Lira organizzate..............................

.............There is plenty of information about how these things work, maybe Sonic Dave will provide us a link to one of his articles in the "Old Instruments and Reproductions" thread........................

Hi Gurn - thanks again for your two recent installments; for those interested regarding a short snip from the #39 contribution, please check out the thread mentioned HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11638.100.html), beginning on pg. 6 (reply #112), and flowing over to the next page - on the latter are some liner notes from an LP that might provide some additional information! Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 29, 2012, 07:14:30 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 29, 2012, 06:59:21 AM
Hi Gurn - thanks again for your two recent installments; for those interested regarding a short snip from the #39 contribution, please check out the thread mentioned HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11638.100.html), beginning on pg. 6 (reply #112), and flowing over to the next page - on the latter are some liner notes from an LP that might provide some additional information! Dave :)

You're welcome, Dave. Thanks for taking the time.

Glad you got that note. I wanted to put some cross-info there but it would have taken me a week to find something that you could put your finger on in a moment, so that worked well. Guess I'm still surprised when people don't know all about it... :D

On the note of those notturni, last night I found (at Arkiv) and purchased this disk. It features the original 5 works that were certainly brought to London by Haydn. I am still not on solid ground that the other three are a sure thing in London performance anyway, although there is no doubt that Haydn rescored them, since the manuscripts still exist in his hand, and were found in his personal library. Anyway, I look forward to these:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/ADW7526.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 29, 2012, 03:01:42 PM

Part 41

1792

A new year, a new season of concerts, and plenty of controversy. Last year, the Salomon Concerts had blown away the competition (which there was plenty, but mainly the Professional Concerts (or 'The Professors' as Haydn called them)). Over winter they had tried to hire Haydn away, but he was loyal to his friend Salomon, and refused their generous offer. The result was that The Professors went off to Paris and brought back Ignaz Pleyel, Haydn's top student before Beethoven, and one of the most popular composers in Europe. How times change, eh?

Among the Haydnish works to come out of the ensuing competition, which both composers were well aware of, but which neither of them cared about since they attended each others concerts and ate dinner together frequently, were the famous "Surprise" symphony (Hob 94) and the Sinfonia concertante, which Haydn wrote specifically to counter one of Pleyel's strengths (the SC was a Parisian form, and Paris resident Pleyel excelled at it).

In this year, Haydn also met and engaged in business with music publisher William Napier. He produced 100 Scottish folk song settings, the first of <>400 he would set over the next 12 years. Hard to know where he found the time for this project; it may have been an easy thing for him to do, but 100 sings is 100 songs, that's a lot of writing!

In addition, some marches and dances, and the hugely popular "The Storm", a Pindaric Ode set to music, which Peter Pindar himself, and Haydn after him, called a madrigal (it wasn't).

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the Prince was getting rather pissy about Haydn's continued absence, and when the season ended along with the month of June, the trip home began. Probably Haydn had second thoughts about this when his arrival in Vienna was totally without notice or fanfare. Despite the fact that he was now the most renowned and successful composer in the world!

The music of 1792;
Hob 01_093 Symphony in D
   The Hanover Band / Goodman
Hob 01_094 Symphony in G
   Orchestra of the 18th Century / Brüggen
Hob 01_097 Symphony in C
   La Petite Bande / Sigiswald Kuijken
Hob 01_098 Symphony in Bb
   Musicians of the Louvre, Grenoble / Minkowski
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Goodman93_95cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnBruggenLondon1cover-1.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Kuijken096_098cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnMinkowskicover.jpg)

Hob 01_105 Sinfonia Concertante in Bb for Violin, Cello, Oboe & Bassoon
   Concentus Musicus Wien / Harnoncourt –Hobarth / Coin / Reichenburg / Turkovich
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHarnoncourtSymphoniescover.jpg)

Hob 08_03 March in Eb 'For the Prince of Wales'
   Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnEarlyDivertimenticover.jpg)

Hob 09_12 Six German Dances
Hob 09_29 & Hob 09_24 Five Contredanses, a Quadrille & a Menuet
   Ensemble Bella Musica de Vienne / Dittrich
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Dancesetc-1.jpg)

Hob 17a_deest / 09_11 12 Menuets for Keyboard (w/Trio)
Hob 17a_deest / 09_12 12 German Dances for Keyboard
   Bart van Oort
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardOortPiecescoverlarger-1.jpg)

Hob 24a_08 Madrigal for Soprano & Chorus "The Storm"
   Orchestra of the Golden Age / Haydn Society Chorus / Ruth Holton
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnMadrigalTheStormcover.jpg)

100 Scottish Folksongs set for Voice, Keyboard & Continuo for the publisher William Napier
Hob 31a_001 Scottish Song 'Mary's Dream'
Hob 31a_002 Scottish Song 'John Anderson'
Hob 31a_003 Scottish Song 'I love my love in secret'
Hob 31a_004 Scottish Song 'Willie was a wanton wag'
Hob 31a_005 Scottish Song 'Saw ye me father'
Hob 31a_006 Scottish Song 'Todlen Hame'
.................................................................
.................................................................
Hob 31a_093 Scottish Song 'Shepherds, I have lost my love'
Hob 31a_094 Scottish Song 'Bonny Kate of Edinburgh'
Hob 31a_095 Scottish Song 'If e'er ye do well it's a wonder'
Hob 31a_096 Scottish Song 'Peggy in devotion'
Hob 31a_097 Scottish Song 'Colonel Gardner'
Hob 31a_098 Scottish Song 'To daunton me'
Hob 31a_099 Scottish Song 'Jenny was fair'
Hob 31a_100 Scottish Song 'Her absence will not alter me'
      Haydn Trio Eisenstadt / Lorna Anderson / Jamie MacDougall*
* Full listing available upon request
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnScottishFolksongscover.jpg)

As you can see, I am continuing my tradition of trying to expose all the available symphony disks, rather than just one or two cycles. I have made some effort to choose the better works in each though, it isn't just random picks. :)

The Hanover Band did about half of the London's, some early, some late. I like their Hob 93, it is nicely con fuego. Another D major following on the heels of last year's Hob 96, this one caught the attention of the patrons and held on, being performed a second time due to popular demand. I think you will like this version.

For Hob 94 we turn to Brüggen. His slightly more deliberate tempos are even more conducive to a surprise than some others might be. Overall I am not Brüggen's biggest fan, sorry to say that, but in this work he does credit to himself and to Haydn. And just to show that Haydn was not quite so self-deprecating as has been related when it came to his work, when Dies asked him about the anecdote of his saying that he wrote Andante surprise to 'wake up the little old ladies in the audience'. His reply was 'No ... my intention was to surprise the public with something new, and to debut in a brilliant manner, in order to prevent my rank from being usurped by Pleyel, my pupil ...' And that he did, as this concert was the highlight of the season and in fact, the turning point of the whole 'contest'.

For Hob 97, we will turn to our old friend Kuijken again. This entire cycle is high on my list, and the 97 is as good as it gets. I think the Petite Bande has a bit lesser manning than some of the others, but you can hardly tell it in these works. They play for all its worth!

Finally we turn to Minkowski and the Musicians of the Louvre for Hob 98. This is a very new cycle, the newest of all at less than 2 years. Minkowski always gets the most out of his players, and their #98 here is very nicely presented.

For the Sinfonia concertante I had a tough choice between Kuijken and Harnoncourt, but finally the soloists tipped the balance for me. And perhaps a bit more get up and go too. Anyway, this is a fine representation of this work, I think you will like it. :)

When BIS released the "Early Divertimentos" box set by Huss, they also included an extra disk that had, for example, the Violin Concerto #1. But the pleasant surprise came from the fact that there were some fully orchestrated marches from the late years! And so we have here the March for the Prince of Wales, a nice bon-bon for those of us who love a good march. Now if someone would go one better and record all of them.... :)

And so it is with dances too. The Ensemble Bella Musica Wien give us this nice disk on Harmonia Mundi. One of the very few dances disks around, but it does include a few "attributed to" dances while leaving out several genuine Haydn works. Well, we're glad to have anything in this arena, aren't we? I am, anyway. :)

Now our lad Bart presents the piano reductions of these dance works, without which we wouldn't even know the existence of. They are quite charming, and Oort plays them at good tempo, as they actually were dances meant to dance to, unlike many of the orchestral minuets in symphonies. I always recommend this little box of non-sonata keyboard music whenever I get the chance, and here it is again! :)

Talk about works that are difficult to get your hands on! Several years ago I found this 'madrigal' easily enough as a MP3 download on Amazon, and I bought it figuring that it would work until later when I could get it on disk. Well, now, later came and went a long time ago and I still don't have it on disk. The disk this particular version comes from, by the Orchestra of the Golden Age / Haydn Society Chorus is clearly a good one. I would like to hear what these folks have going with that Nelson Mass and the very first mass, the Missa Brevis in F. Well, one day I will round up the exorbitant AMP price and hear for myself. Meanwhile, you could do worse than this download, and if you run across a nice disk of this work, PM for my address.... :D

Finally, we finish off the year with the very first big batch of folksongs that would bring the commissions for the later years. This group of 100 for Napier represents all sorts of folksongs, traditional and contemporary. Brilliant arranged the entire project where I doubt any other publisher would have done. I am pleased to have it, even though I have only listened to it twice through now. These early works Haydn wrote as mainly keyboard works with a figured bass, as opposed to the later ones which were through-composed keyboard trios. If you have the patience and enjoy folk music, which I do (despite that Scottish sounds like a Slavic tongue to me ::) ), then you might enjoy these. If there is any demand, I will publish the entire list in chronological order for us. Otherwise, the abbreviated form will suffice to give the idea. :)

So there it is. 1792 was a triumphant year for Haydn, and clearly it set up the return in 1794 by its own success. The original plan is believed to have been Haydn in '91-92 followed by Mozart in '93-94. Fate overtook that though, and it was a considerably sadder Haydn who hit the road in early July, stopping in Bonn on the way to meet Beethoven for the first time, and worried the entire time about having lost his job. No need for worries though, Joe... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on February 01, 2012, 08:48:04 AM

Excellant survey Gurn! It will take time for me to develop more comments, but I am absorbing it all in 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 01, 2012, 06:02:40 PM

Part 42

1793
There is considerable evidence that Haydn intended to return to London for the 1793 season; in the event he did not do so until 1794. On 24 July 1792 he had arrived in Vienna, occupying the same lodgings as in the autumn of 1790. His 18 months in the Habsburg capital were uneventful. Polzelli was in Italy.

In one of the most depressing moments, his good friend in Vienna, Marianne Genzinger, died on 20 January 1793. For all practical purposes, his two best friends, Mozart and Genzinger died only 13 months apart. Haydn must have been lonely when not absorbed in his work, a condition probably not improved by his wife's suggestion that they purchase a small house in the suburb of Gumpendorf (not occupied until 1797; it is now the Vienna Haydn Museum). To look at a different side of Haydn for a moment, it should be noted that he bought the house, but never allowed "The Infernal Beast" to live there. In all these years (recall that they wed in 1759) I can't say that I have read even a single anecdote that puts a positive spin on their relationship. :(

Beethoven arrived in November 1792, and their teacher/student relationship began immediately; included was a stay at Eisenstadt with Haydn in the summer of 1793. Haydn set him (like all his students) to a course of counterpoint based on Fux's model, but he had neither the time nor the inclination to correct the exercises systematically, and a frustrated Beethoven switched to Albrechtsberger. It is likely that what was more important to both composers were the comments Haydn made about free composition, as well as shop-talk about musical life and career-building. One can learn the basics of composition anywhere.

By early winter he had decided not to return to London in 1793. Instead, he had finally determined to undergo an operation for a long-painful polyp in his nose. There is considerable reason to suppose also that he feared traveling at this particularly dangerous stage in the First Napoleonic Wars. In any case it was to his advantage to take an additional year, so as to be able to have new compositions in his portfolio on his return. He began the string quartets Op 71/74 (a single opus of six) in late 1792 and composed them mainly in 1793, with a view to producing them in London. Later in 1793 Haydn worked on three symphonies for London, completing Hob 99 in Eb, the second and third movements of Hob 100 in G ('Military') and all but the first movement of Hob 101 in D ('Clock'). Another major composition from 1793 is the Variations in f for Keyboard Hob 17:6, one of his greatest solo keyboard works. Finally, a set of 3 Keyboard Trios (accompanied sonatas) dedicated to Princess Marie Esterházy, wife of Prince Anton.

By the end of the year, he was ready to hit the road for London yet again, once again well-armed with compositions guaranteed to make him the hit of the season for a third and fourth time!

The music of 1793;

Hob 01_099 Symphony in Eb
   London Classical Players / Norrington
Hob 01_100 Symphony in G
   Musicians of the Louvre, Grenoble / Minkowski
Hob 01_101 Symphony in D
   Collegium Musicum 90 / Hickox
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnNorrington99100cover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnMinkowskicover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Hickoxsymphony2.jpg)

Hob 03_69 Quartet in Bb for Strings Op 71 #1
Hob 03_70 Quartet in D for Strings Op 71 #2
Hob 03_71 Quartet in Eb for Strings Op 71 #3
Hob 03_72 Quartet in C for Strings Op 74 #1
Hob 03_73 Quartet in F for Strings Op 74 #2
Hob 03_74 Quartet in g for Strings Op 74 #3
   Quatuor Festetics
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnFesteticsOp74cover.jpg)

Hob 15_18 Trio in A for Piano & Strings
Hob 15_19 Trio in g for Piano & Strings
Hob 15_20 Trio in Bb for Piano & Strings
   Trio 1790
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/1790v3.jpg)

Hob 17_06 Variations in f for Keyboard
   Paul Badura-Skoda
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardBaduraSkodacover.jpg)

Hob 19_17 – 32 16 Pieces for Flötenuhr
   Hans-Ola Ericsson
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Fltenuhrcover.jpg)

Another good year for symphonies. Two of these three are among his most famous and distinctive. Despite the fact that the most famous movements were either lifted entire from earlier works (the Andante from Op 100 being the Romance from Lira Concerto #3 for example) or else had a firm model that he worked out years before (like the Andante of Hob 101 with its insistent upbeat 'Clock" rhythms derived from Rondo Finale of Symphony Hob 68), it was in their final form that they gained such success. For Symphony Hob 99, we turn here to the London Classical Players led by Norrington, who do a bang-up job in this one. These three disks (or Virgin box set with all on two disks) are quite interesting and I'm pleased to have happened across them. They are a bargain at twice the price. :) For my favorite London symphony, Hob 100, we turn again to Marc Minkowski, whose Musicians of the Louvre play this stirring work with the sort of élan that made it a fan favorite in London, I'm sure. Finally, we visit once more with Hickox & Co. for their rendition of Hob 101, the famous 'Clock'. These three symphonies were the hit of the 1794 season, and Haydn mentions that when he arrived in London for his second visit, he felt that the welcome was rather more tepid than the first time out. However, by midway through the concert series, the love affair he had with the audiences had inflamed with a new passion. Hopefully you will feel some vestige of that when listening to these again. :)

The quartets that Haydn brought with him this time were more tailored to performance before an audience than the previous (Op 64) were. Most have a slow introduction as an 'attention getter' and move right into a variety of crowd pleasing forms that captured his audience. He had learned something from his first trip. That makes this Opus stand out from the others in its own way, as each opus is indeed unique. Our choices are limited here (if we are PIons, at least) to either the Salomon's else the Festetics. As I have only been able to buy one of the three Salomon disks over the years, I went with the Festetics, and have no regrets about it either. Their playing is up to the music in all cases. :)

True to my promise to stay with one group for one genre, I am delighted to continue my traversal of the Keyboard Trios with Trio 1790. There are several nice versions out there though if you haven't committed to this group. The Van Sweiten's are very nice in these, as are my other favorite, the, um, well, I call them the Trio Mosaiques, but they are Cohen, Hobarth & Coin on HM. Nice fallback there! :)

I worked hard picking out the "Piccolo Divertimento", Variations in f for Fortepiano. Finalizing on Badura-Skoda was not a foregone conclusion because there are so many great versions available. But the wonderful 1790 Schantz fortepiano that he plays here sealed the deal for me. If it was good enough for Haydn, it's more than good enough for me!

Finally, we come to an entirely new category of works which I had misfiled and thus overlooked when we got to Part 1 back in 1789. :( These are the works that Haydn wrote for Flötenuhr, or Flute Clock. This is a mechanical organ that could be thought of as a music box type of instrument. The Prince was, of course, enamored of them and had many, at least six of which were built by his personal mechanical clockwork/organ builder and contain music by Haydn. There are 32 known works among the various clocks. Some appear on more than one clock. It is believed that of the 32, 16 were composed around 1789, and 16 around 1793. Since that is everyone's best guess, I went with that. There is a disk in the world somewhere that actually uses a Flötenuhr to play these works;
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/BigLaufwerkcover.jpg)

I can't tell you how much I would love to have this disk, possibly one of my European friends has an extra copy he would be interested in selling... PM me! :D

Anyway, the usual custom is to play these on an organ, which of course can't begin to match the speed and tempo that the mechanical apparatus can do. This was part of their charm, after all, that they played things at an inhuman rate. But Hans-Ola Ericsson is a fine player and of the two or three disks that I tried out, this was the keeper for me (until the real deal comes along).

So there you have it, 1793. Haydn moved from strength to strength, this music was from a master at the absolute peak of his powers, and inspired by his situation. Enjoy!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on February 01, 2012, 06:34:24 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 01, 2012, 06:02:40 PM
Beethoven arrived in November 1792, and their teacher/student relationship began immediately; included was a stay at Eisenstadt with Haydn in the summer of 1793. Haydn set him (like all his students) to a course of counterpoint based on Fux's model, but he had neither the time nor the inclination to correct the exercises systematically, and a frustrated Beethoven switched to Albrechtsberger. It is likely that what was more important to both composers were the comments Haydn made about free composition, as well as shop-talk about musical life and career-building. One can learn the basics of composition anywhere.

I always assumed that the tension between Beethoven and Haydn was attributed to Beethoven being a jackass... but lo and beyond he had legitimate cause to be pissed. Recalling grad school, the casual shop talk profs are hard to learn from, that's why I went for a nose to the grind stone adviser. The former doesn't work well with most students. Did Beethoven say anything about the value of his time with Haydn later besides the didn't want to teach me stuff?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on February 01, 2012, 10:39:59 PM

Quote from: Opus106 on December 31, 2011, 02:47:30 AM
Any reason why Haydn waited until No. 99 to write a symphony which employed clarinets? Was Stadler too busy playing Mozart? ???

Perhaps this is the appropriate time for this post to resurface? 0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 02, 2012, 04:24:47 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on February 01, 2012, 10:39:59 PM
Perhaps this is the appropriate time for this post to resurface? 0:)

Well, the evidence is negative, but I can tell you that there were never any clarinets at Esterháza. Neither were there any in London the first time he went there. That's why he replaced the 2 clarinets in the notturni with 2 more violins in the London versions. Clarinets were a Viennese specialty at that time. Naples, of course, being culturally a mini-Vienna/mini-Paris, had clarinets, but they really were uncommon overall. He may have been told before his return that there were going to be a pair of clarinettists in London this time, and that spurred him on to add them. I'll see when I get home if I have some more info than that. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 02, 2012, 04:31:38 AM

Quote from: DavidW on February 01, 2012, 06:34:24 PM
I always assumed that the tension between Beethoven and Haydn was attributed to Beethoven being a jackass... but lo and beyond he had legitimate cause to be pissed. Recalling grad school, the casual shop talk profs are hard to learn from, that's why I went for a nose to the grind stone adviser. The former doesn't work well with most students. Did Beethoven say anything about the value of his time with Haydn later besides the didn't want to teach me stuff?

Well, Beethoven was a jackass. But he probably had some cause for it. It's hard to imagine that Haydn, freshly returned from the first London trip, was all that eager to plop down and work on the mechanics of counterpoint. That isn't where his value would have been to start with. Going to Albrechtsberger was probably a very good thing. However, in the 'casual shop talk' category, be also learned things he would have never come close to with Albrechtsberger. So both had their value.

I can't quote off the top of my head, but I will look up some of Beethoven's later quotes about Haydn. Of course, we all realize that it would have been totally inappropriate to the Beethoven Myth, as far as the Romantics who created it were concerned, to have him feel even a modicum of gratitude to such a shallow lackey of the Establishment as Haydn? But the fact remains that on his bedroom wall when he died, the only picture was of the house that Haydn was born in. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 02, 2012, 04:34:33 AM

Sure, Beethoven was a young hothead in a hurry.

And (separately) the clarinet as a new instrument would not have prlliferated instantaneously.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 02, 2012, 04:52:57 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 02, 2012, 04:34:33 AM
Sure, Beethoven was a young hothead in a hurry.

And (separately) the clarinet as a new instrument would not have prlliferated instantaneously.

Very true on both counts.

There were some centers where clarinets had a strong foothold, such as Vienna, Paris and Prague, but outside of those, it just wasn't happening. Recall that Mozart had to rewrite most of his Paris orchestral music in the late 1770's when he brought it back to Salzburg. He complained loud and long about not having clarinets there, but to no avail. So it goes.

It is also postulated that Haydn wasn't nearly as enamored of the sound of the clarinet as Mozart was. Wolfie was intellectually drunk on it. Haydn was... meh, that's OK, I guess.... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 02, 2012, 05:11:54 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 02, 2012, 04:52:57 AM
Very true on both counts.

There were some centers where clarinets had a strong foothold, such as Vienna, Paris and Prague, but outside of those, it just wasn't happening. Recall that Mozart had to rewrite most of his Paris orchestral music in the late 1770's when he brought it back to Salzburg. He complained loud and long about not having clarinets there, but to no avail. So it goes.

It is also postulated that Haydn wasn't nearly as enamored of the sound of the clarinet as Mozart was. Wolfie was intellectually drunk on it. Haydn was... meh, that's OK, I guess.... :D

8)

We clarinetists are generous of soul, so I can still appreciate the greatness of Haydn's music ; )

But the musical world would naturally wait to see if the instrument took on . . . I mean, it might have gone the way of the baryton (* shudder *) . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on February 02, 2012, 05:21:32 AM

Thanks, Gurn. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 02, 2012, 05:52:30 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 02, 2012, 05:11:54 AM
We clarinetists are generous of soul, so I can still appreciate the greatness of Haydn's music ; )

But the musical world would naturally wait to see if the instrument took on . . . I mean, it might have gone the way of the baryton (* shudder *) . . . .

I read an interesting essay the other day concerning why Haydn's music is still underappreciated, and the author said that the only group as a whole that were unabashedly major Haydn fans were composers. So I guess you were genetically programmed for it. :)

Quote from: Opus106 on February 02, 2012, 05:21:32 AM
Thanks, Gurn. :)

Anytime, Navneeth. All questions are welcome in der Haus.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 02, 2012, 06:24:20 AM

We composers will surprise you. It's not always about the Atonal Honking!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: starrynight on February 02, 2012, 06:56:48 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 02, 2012, 04:31:38 AM
Well, Beethoven was a jackass. But he probably had some cause for it. It's hard to imagine that Haydn, freshly returned from the first London trip, was all that eager to plop down and work on the mechanics of counterpoint. That isn't where his value would have been to start with. Going to Albrechtsberger was probably a very good thing. However, in the 'casual shop talk' category, be also learned things he would have never come close to with Albrechtsberger. So both had their value.

I can't quote off the top of my head, but I will look up some of Beethoven's later quotes about Haydn. Of course, we all realize that it would have been totally inappropriate to the Beethoven Myth, as far as the Romantics who created it were concerned, to have him feel even a modicum of gratitude to such a shallow lackey of the Establishment as Haydn? But the fact remains that on his bedroom wall when he died, the only picture was of the house that Haydn was born in. :)

8)

Isn't his 8th symphony proof enough? :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on February 02, 2012, 07:02:45 AM

I've enjoyed reading the last few pages of the Haus. It is such a nice place on GMG to hang out - filled with scholarship, wit and discussions of a great composer and period.

:D

Regarding Beethoven and Haydn: I tend to agree that it was not the most serendipitous time for these particular men to form a relationship. Albrechtsberger was considered to be one of the, if not the, greatest theory/counterpoint teachers of his generation, and Beethoven was well served by his time with him. And I agree with Gurn that Haydn had other fish to fry.

All's well that ends well.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: starrynight on February 02, 2012, 07:36:28 AM

From what I remember Haydn was just doing someone who requested he help Beethoven a favour. There could have been no way he would have known what Beethoven was to become.

Beethoven didn't like Haydn't request to say that he was a teacher of Beethoven on the Op1 publication. Maybe Haydn remembered Mozart and how he dedicated a set of string quartets to him. But Mozart had reached his compositional maturity already and had fully found his own compositional voice and because of that could confidently acknowledge his forbears. Beethoven, while a very good composer, was yet to really fully feel he had found himself musically in these early stages. By the later years perhaps he did feel he had learnt enough from Haydn and others to progress his music but at that early point he didn't feel that way.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on February 02, 2012, 07:41:44 AM

Geiringer write in his "Haydn: A Creative Life In Music" that in 1808 at the celebration concert of Creation (in Italian!) Beethoven knelt before Haydn and kissed his hands and forehead. (It was last public appearance of Haydn.)

http://haydn2009.wordpress.com/tag/die-schopfung/ here is a nice shot from this event.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 02, 2012, 10:07:53 AM

Quote from: Arnold on February 02, 2012, 07:02:45 AM
I've enjoyed reading the last few pages of the Haus. It is such a nice place on GMG to hang out - filled with scholarship, wit and discussions of a great composer and period.

:D

Regarding Beethoven and Haydn: I tend to agree that it was not the most serendipitous time for these particular men to form a relationship. Albrechtsberger was considered to be one of the, if not the, greatest theory/counterpoint teachers of his generation, and Beethoven was well served by his time with him. And I agree with Gurn that Haydn had other fish to fry.

All's well that ends well.

:)

And always a pleasure to see you here, Arnold. You help make it what it is, after all. :)

Quote from: mszczuj on February 02, 2012, 07:41:44 AM
Geiringer write in his "Haydn: A Creative Life In Music" that in 1808 at the celebration concert of Creation (in Italian!) Beethoven knelt before Haydn and kissed his hands and forehead. (It was last public appearance of Haydn.)

http://haydn2009.wordpress.com/tag/die-schopfung/ here is a nice shot from this event.

That's a great picture. It was destroyed (or disappeared) in WWII, unfortunately, because it was painted actually as the cover to a box or something that belonged to Marie Esterházy, Haydn's protector in his old age. That was the last really big day in Haydn's life, despite that he only made it to the end of Part I... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on February 02, 2012, 10:27:27 AM

Quote from: mszczuj on February 02, 2012, 07:41:44 AM
Geiringer write in his "Haydn: A Creative Life In Music" that in 1808 at the celebration concert of Creation (in Italian!) Beethoven knelt before Haydn and kissed his hands and forehead. (It was last public appearance of Haydn.)

http://haydn2009.wordpress.com/tag/die-schopfung/ here is a nice shot from this event.

Thanks for the link to that blog - it looks like it has much good information, and is now added to my RSS reader.

Speaking of which; I created an eBay search for 'Haydn" and added that to my reader only to discover that there were so many hits that I had to unsubscribe and think of a more specific search in order to focus only on the kind of things I might want to buy. But it is nice to know that so much Haydn is available on eBay. I've hardly shopped there for music.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 02, 2012, 10:41:08 AM

Quote from: Arnold on February 02, 2012, 10:27:27 AM
Thanks for the link to that blog - it looks like it has much good information, and is now added to my RSS reader.

Speaking of which; I created an eBay search for 'Haydn" and added that to my reader only to discover that there were so many hits that I had to unsubscribe and think of a more specific search in order to focus only on the kind of things I might want to buy. But it is nice to know that so much Haydn is available on eBay. I've hardly shopped there for music.

:)

This is the search that I set up for Haydn in eBay:

Haydn -Lili -Brahms -baby -dudewheresmyobi

The category is "CD's", and in my case, I selected "North America only" and "Accepts PayPal".

Of course, if you collect Japanese pressings for hundreds of $$, you can choose not to eliminate "Dude, where's my Obi?". I find it to be a pain in the ass. ::)

I run this search every morning without fail. It has paid off handsomely for me over the years. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on February 02, 2012, 11:03:21 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 02, 2012, 10:41:08 AM
This is the search that I set up for Haydn in eBay:

Haydn -Lili -Brahms -baby -dudewheresmyobi

The category is "CD's", and in my case, I selected "North America only" and "Accepts PayPal".

Of course, if you collect Japanese pressings for hundreds of $$, you can choose not to eliminate "Dude, where's my Obi?". I find it to be a pain in the ass. ::)

I run this search every morning without fail. It has paid off handsomely for me over the years. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 02, 2012, 11:12:25 AM

Quote from: Arnold on February 02, 2012, 11:03:21 AM
:D

Oh, one more thing; I don't let it send me an email with every new listing either. I just manually go look. There is still a lot of dross to sift through, I would break something if I got an email about all of it! :)

I also have a similar searches set up for Mozart, Beethoven and Schubert. Of course.... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 02, 2012, 11:19:20 AM

Gurn, you da man!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on February 02, 2012, 11:22:30 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 02, 2012, 11:12:25 AM
Oh, one more thing; I don't let it send me an email with every new listing either. I just manually go look. There is still a lot of dross to sift through, I would break something if I got an email about all of it! :)

I also have a similar searches set up for Mozart, Beethoven and Schubert. Of course.... :D

8)

I am using Google Reader in which the listings will show up as items under the eBay header. I will setup something like your search, and even if there is dross, scrolling down the list is not nearly as bothersome as emails and much more convenient than visiting the site itself. If I see something I wish to bid on or buy, I can just click the title and it will take me to the listing.

If you have not used an RSS reader I highly recommend one (Google Reader is fine but there are many others) for sites for which you wish to have new content pushed out to you instead of you having to go to the site.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 02, 2012, 11:31:54 AM

Quote from: Arnold on February 02, 2012, 11:22:30 AM
I am using Google Reader in which the listings will show up as items under the eBay header. I will setup something like your search, and even if there is dross, scrolling down the list is not nearly as bothersome as emails and much more convenient than visiting the site itself. If I see something I wish to bid on or buy, I can just click the title and it will take me to the listing.

If you have not used an RSS reader I highly recommend one (Google Reader is fine but there are many others) for sites for which you wish to have new content pushed out to you instead of you having to go to the site.

:)

My iGoogle home page allows RSS feeds, and I use them for all sorts of news sites and such, but I haven't quite figured out how to get an eBay feed going yet. That would be something to piddle with when I have some time. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 02, 2012, 11:33:24 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 02, 2012, 11:19:20 AM
Gurn, you da man!

0:) :-[

Me and eBay been going steady for 11 years now. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on February 02, 2012, 11:40:55 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 02, 2012, 11:31:54 AM
My iGoogle home page allows RSS feeds, and I use them for all sorts of news sites and such, but I haven't quite figured out how to get an eBay feed going yet. That would be something to piddle with when I have some time. :)

8)

All you have to do is construct your search on eBay then scroll down to the bottom of the page and find the orange RSS icon. Right click it and choose "Copy link location", then paste that in the "Subscribe" box in Google Reader. It's simple, and I just did it for a modified version of your search (I added -dorati -gould and chose "best offer" as well as other limiters) and got a fairly good list.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 02, 2012, 11:44:17 AM

Quote from: Arnold on February 02, 2012, 11:40:55 AM
All you have to do is construct your search on eBay then scroll down to the bottom of the page and find the orange RSS icon. Right click it and choose "Copy link location", then paste that in the "Subscribe" box in Google Reader. It's simple, and I just did it for a modified version of your search (I added -dorati -gould and chose "best offer" as well as other limiters) and got a fairly good list.

:)

Yup, just did it too and it worked fine on my home page. Fit right in between "Science News" and "Big Butt Review".... ;D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on February 02, 2012, 11:49:52 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 02, 2012, 11:44:17 AM
Yup, just did it too and it worked fine on my home page. Fit right in between "Science News" and "Big Butt Review".... ;D

8)

Hah!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on February 02, 2012, 05:56:04 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 02, 2012, 10:41:08 AM
This is the search that I set up for Haydn in eBay:

Haydn -Lili -Brahms -baby -dudewheresmyobi

The category is "CD's", and in my case, I selected "North America only" and "Accepts PayPal".

Of course, if you collect Japanese pressings for hundreds of $$, you can choose not to eliminate "Dude, where's my Obi?". I find it to be a pain in the ass. ::)

I run this search every morning without fail. It has paid off handsomely for me over the years. :)

8)

Why do you need to exclude Brahms, baby and Lili (Langtry?)?

I've used Ebay exactly once, to get what was then an unavailable issue on the Naive Vivaldi series (it seems to be available again on AmazonUK). The seller turned out to be located in Taiwan. I had absolutely no problems, so you might want to reconsider confining yourself to North America at some point.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 02, 2012, 06:09:26 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 02, 2012, 05:56:04 PM
Why do you need to exclude Brahms, baby and Lili (Langtry?)?

I've used Ebay exactly once, to get what was then an unavailable issue on the Naive Vivaldi series (it seems to be available again on AmazonUK). The seller turned out to be located in Taiwan. I had absolutely no problems, so you might want to reconsider confining yourself to North America at some point.

Brahms - 50 or so entries for "Variations on a Theme by Haydn" every day!

Baby - a couple of years ago there was a rash of disks called "Baby Needs Haydn", and "Baby's First Haydn" :P

Lili - Apparently there is a pop singer named Lili Haydn. I don't know more than that, except there were a dozen or so listings a day for her.

Generally the problems from overseas buying (I do a lot from actual stores over there) involve steep shipping and exchange rates. I buy from Britain fairly often but that's about it. Next time you are shopping in Germany, see if you can find me that Flötenuhr disk featured in my 1793 post. I'd pay handsomely for it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: eyeresist on February 02, 2012, 06:47:52 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 02, 2012, 11:44:17 AM
Fit right in between "Science News" and "Big Butt Review".... ;D

It's important to keep up with recent developments.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 02, 2012, 06:50:18 PM

Quote from: eyeresist on February 02, 2012, 06:47:52 PM
It's important to keep up with recent developments.

I try to paint life with a broad brush. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 03, 2012, 04:03:44 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 02, 2012, 06:09:26 PM
Brahms - 50 or so entries for "Variations on a Theme by Haydn" every day!

Baby - a couple of years ago there was a rash of disks called "Baby Needs Haydn", and "Baby's First Haydn" :P

Lili - Apparently there is a pop singer named Lili Haydn. I don't know more than that, except there were a dozen or so listings a day for her.

Generally the problems from overseas buying (I do a lot from actual stores over there) involve steep shipping and exchange rates. I buy from Britain fairly often but that's about it. Next time you are shopping in Germany, see if you can find me that Flötenuhr disk featured in my 1793 post. I'd pay handsomely for it. :)

8)

I wondered about Lili and baby, as well. Brahms, I knew all about : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on February 03, 2012, 06:59:57 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 02, 2012, 06:09:26 PM
Brahms - 50 or so entries for "Variations on a Theme by Haydn" every day!

Baby - a couple of years ago there was a rash of disks called "Baby Needs Haydn", and "Baby's First Haydn" :P

Lili - Apparently there is a pop singer named Lili Haydn. I don't know more than that, except there were a dozen or so listings a day for her.

Generally the problems from overseas buying (I do a lot from actual stores over there) involve steep shipping and exchange rates. I buy from Britain fairly often but that's about it. Next time you are shopping in Germany, see if you can find me that Flötenuhr disk featured in my 1793 post. I'd pay handsomely for it. :)

8)

I added as well -babies; and for the Mozart search: -mothers -favorites -massage -masterpieces AND -masterpeices

You can never be to careful ...

;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 03, 2012, 07:19:19 AM

Quote from: Arnold on February 03, 2012, 06:59:57 AM
I added as well -babies; and for the Mozart search: -mothers -favorites -massage -masterpieces AND -masterpeices

You can never be to careful ...

;)

Yes, exactly right! I also have more modifiers for Mozart. That lad was seriously exploited, then and now. >:(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 03, 2012, 07:38:06 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 02, 2012, 10:41:08 AM
Of course, if you collect Japanese pressings for hundreds of $$, you can choose not to eliminate "Dude, where's my Obi?". I find it to be a pain in the ass. ::)

I love getting the Japanese pressings....in the used bins. of course. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 03, 2012, 07:52:43 AM

Quote from: Bogey on February 03, 2012, 07:38:06 AM
I love getting the Japanese pressings....in the used bins. of course. :D

Well, these are CD's though Bill. Do you ever get anything with the obi wrapped around? I've got some used Japanese disks, but never seen an obi. Anway, too rich for MY blood. I want the music, not the cachet. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on February 03, 2012, 08:01:51 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 03, 2012, 07:52:43 AM
Well, these are CD's though Bill. Do you ever get anything with the obi wrapped around? I've got some used Japanese disks, but never seen an obi. Anway, too rich for MY blood. I want the music, not the cachet. :)

8)

After Googling, I found out that some people collect those things, and I guess, are willing to pay more to have them.

Go figure.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 03, 2012, 08:05:37 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 03, 2012, 07:52:43 AM
Well, these are CD's though Bill. Do you ever get anything with the obi wrapped around? I've got some used Japanese disks, but never seen an obi. Anway, too rich for MY blood. I want the music, not the cachet. :)

8)

I have two from the Das Wiener Philharmonia Trio on the Camerata label....Vols. 3 and 4. Great music making on these, by the way.

(http://content.answcdn.com/main/content/img/amg/classical_albums/cov200/cm000/m077/m07767t9x8n.jpg)

Do you know how many volumes they issued?

PS Snow day here....looking at 12 inches or so.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 03, 2012, 08:32:28 AM

Just left a short post (quoted below) in the listening thread - as stated, most of this keyboard oeuvre of Papa Haydn is new to me - the Derek Adlam single disc has him performing a handful of these works on a clavichord, which he made in 1982 (copy on an instrument from 1763 by Johann Adolph Hass, Hamburg, and strung in brass).

The Bart van Oort box consists of 5 discs of a wide variety of Haydn's non-sonata keyboard works composed over an approximate 30 year period and played on fortepiano (instrument from 2000 by Chris Maene after Walter ca. 1795). A listing of the works on these CDs can be found HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=204258). A short review of the box set is on the All Music website HERE (http://www.allmusic.com/album/haydn-klavierstcke-w177795/review) for those interested. The box includes an excellent 23-page booklet (only in English) of notes by van Oort & Sylvia Berry, a specialist in Viennese music of the late 18th & early 19th centuries - a bargain on the Amazon MP!

I've been listening to the first 2 discs, i.e. Variations & Dances and agree w/ the reviewer above; varied and delightful works performed ably as expected by van Oort in well recorded sound; the fortepiano has a pleasant full tone - the Adlam disc just started, so will enjoy some of these pieces on the clavichord - :)

QuoteHaydn - Non-sonata keyboard works w/ Bart van Oort on fortepiano; 5-disc set - new acquisition and except for the 'Seven Last Words', most of this music is new to me - my only other CD of some of these works is Derek Adlam on the clavichord - :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-9rN4Q2x/0/O/HaydnPianovanOort.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnAdlamClav/737226656_Xufhk-O.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on February 03, 2012, 08:46:28 AM

Quote from: Bogey on February 03, 2012, 08:05:37 AM
I have two from the Das Wiener Philharmonia Trio on the Camerata label....Vols. 3 and 4. Great music making on these, by the way.

(http://content.answcdn.com/main/content/img/amg/classical_albums/cov200/cm000/m077/m07767t9x8n.jpg)

Do you know how many volumes they issued?

PS Snow day here....looking at 12 inches or so.

There were 6 altogether.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 03, 2012, 08:48:56 AM

Thanks!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on February 03, 2012, 09:08:07 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 03, 2012, 08:32:28 AM
Just left a short post (quoted below) in the listening thread - as stated, most of this keyboard oeuvre of Papa Haydn is new to me - the Derek Adlam single disc has him performing a handful of these works on a clavichord, which he made in 1982 (copy on an instrument from 1763 by Johann Adolph Hass, Hamburg, and strung in brass).

The Bart van Oort box consists of 5 discs of a wide variety of Haydn's non-sonata keyboard works composed over an approximate 30 year period and played on fortepiano (instrument from 2000 by Chris Maene after Walter ca. 1795). A listing of the works on these CDs can be found HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=204258). A short review of the box set is on the All Music website HERE (http://www.allmusic.com/album/haydn-klavierstcke-w177795/review) for those interested. The box includes an excellent 23-page booklet (only in English) of notes by van Oort & Sylvia Berry, a specialist in Viennese music of the late 18th & early 19th centuries - a bargain on the Amazon MP!

I've been listening to the first 2 discs, i.e. Variations & Dances and agree w/ the reviewer above; varied and delightful works performed ably as expected by van Oort in well recorded sound; the fortepiano has a pleasant full tone - the Adlam disc just started, so will enjoy some of these pieces on the clavichord - :)

I received a mail earlier this morning from Abeille that I will be refunded the amount for this box, since their stock somehow vanished after I placed my order. :( So the only Haydn disc of the parcel will be the 'Haydn in London' (Winter & Winter), which made an appearance in this thread a few pages ago.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 03, 2012, 09:52:21 AM

Quote from: Arnold on February 03, 2012, 08:01:51 AM
After Googling, I found out that some people collect those things, and I guess, are willing to pay more to have them.

Go figure.

:)

Go indeed. I can't figure either... :-\

Quote from: Bogey on February 03, 2012, 08:05:37 AM
I have two from the Das Wiener Philharmonia Trio on the Camerata label....Vols. 3 and 4. Great music making on these, by the way.

(http://content.answcdn.com/main/content/img/amg/classical_albums/cov200/cm000/m077/m07767t9x8n.jpg)

Do you know how many volumes they issued?

PS Snow day here....looking at 12 inches or so.

Yes, 6 is it. I have the first 4, but the last 2 are virtually impossible to get any more. Unless you got them when released, you are probably out of luck. The lack of recordings of these excellent works is an ongoing mystery.

Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 03, 2012, 08:32:28 AM
Just left a short post (quoted below) in the listening thread - as stated, most of this keyboard oeuvre of Papa Haydn is new to me - the Derek Adlam single disc has him performing a handful of these works on a clavichord, which he made in 1982 (copy on an instrument from 1763 by Johann Adolph Hass, Hamburg, and strung in brass).

The Bart van Oort box consists of 5 discs of a wide variety of Haydn's non-sonata keyboard works composed over an approximate 30 year period and played on fortepiano (instrument from 2000 by Chris Maene after Walter ca. 1795). A listing of the works on these CDs can be found HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=204258). A short review of the box set is on the All Music website HERE (http://www.allmusic.com/album/haydn-klavierstcke-w177795/review) for those interested. The box includes an excellent 23-page booklet (only in English) of notes by van Oort & Sylvia Berry, a specialist in Viennese music of the late 18th & early 19th centuries - a bargain on the Amazon MP!

I've been listening to the first 2 discs, i.e. Variations & Dances and agree w/ the reviewer above; varied and delightful works performed ably as expected by van Oort in well recorded sound; the fortepiano has a pleasant full tone - the Adlam disc just started, so will enjoy some of these pieces on the clavichord - :)

Yeah, Dave, 2 sets of really good tunes. We have touted them both here, the Oort as recently as for the 1792 dances on there. I think you will like that Adlam, I know you like clavicord, and that's a good one. :)

Quote from: Opus106 on February 03, 2012, 09:08:07 AM
I received a mail earlier this morning from Abeille that I will be refunded the amount for this box, since their stock somehow vanished after I placed my order. :( So the only Haydn disc of the parcel will be the 'Haydn in London' (Winter & Winter), which made an appearance in this thread a few pages ago.

Well, Navneeth, it's only one, buts it's a good one anyway. That's an excellent disk!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 03, 2012, 10:08:08 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 03, 2012, 09:52:21 AM
Go indeed. I can't figure either... :-\Yes, 6 is it. I have the first 4, but the last 2 are virtually impossible to get any more. Unless you got them when released, you are probably out of luck. The lack of recordings of these excellent works is an ongoing mystery.

Criminal at best. We are playing through the two I have right now...might be some of the best Haydn performances and sound I have on the shelf.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 03, 2012, 10:11:30 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 03, 2012, 09:52:21 AM
Yeah, Dave, 2 sets of really good tunes. We have touted them both here, the Oort as recently as for the 1792 dances on there. I think you will like that Adlam, I know you like clavicord, and that's a good one. :)

Well, Navneeth, it's only one, buts it's a good one anyway. That's an excellent disk!

Hi Gurn - yes I've been keeping up on your installments and saw the van Oort box a few pages back; think that I had already ordered it from the Abeille Musique site - cost was about 9 bucks only! From Navneeth's comments, I may have gotten one of the last ones they had?

I've had the clavichord disc for a while and just finished listening to the recording - still love that instrument; a nice contrasting sound to the fortepiano - thanks again for all of the work you've put into your Haydn chronological review - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on February 03, 2012, 10:19:50 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 03, 2012, 09:52:21 AM
Yes, 6 is it. I have the first 4, but the last 2 are virtually impossible to get any more. Unless you got them when released, you are probably out of luck. The lack of recordings of these excellent works is an ongoing mystery.

Now that's news. I have 2 discs of Haydn that Gurn wants and doesn't have!

How's this - the 2 cds plus an ice fishing hut on Lake Simcoe for a hacienda in the sun.

;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 03, 2012, 10:33:15 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on February 03, 2012, 10:19:50 AM
Now that's news. I have 2 discs of Haydn that Gurn wants and doesn't have!

How's this - the 2 cds plus an ice fishing hut on Lake Simcoe for a hacienda in the sun.

;D

I can provide you with a nice little lot with trees that you can build an hacienda on. That would be a fair trade. :)

Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 03, 2012, 10:11:30 AM
Hi Gurn - yes I've been keeping up on your installments and saw the van Oort box a few pages back; think that I had already ordered it from the Abeille Musique site - cost was about 9 bucks only! From Navneeth's comments, I may have gotten one of the last ones they had?

I've had the clavichord disc for a while and just finished listening to the recording - still love that instrument; a nice contrasting sound to the fortepiano - thanks again for all of the work you've put into your Haydn chronological review - Dave :)

Well, that's a darn fine price. It's funny what a range you see this set going for. I saw it for $75 the other day ::) I felt like $25-30 is fair, but 9 is amazing!!

Thanks for the kind words. We are running out of years pretty soon here though. Time for some essays on genres and stuff.

Quote from: Bogey on February 03, 2012, 10:08:08 AM
Criminal at best. We are playing through the two I have right now...might be some of the best Haydn performances and sound I have on the shelf.

I know, it's a great set and I'm sorry not to have it all. The Japanese are just too stingy with their distribution. >:(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 03, 2012, 05:48:14 PM

Part 43

1794

What a great year! Something for everyone in 1794. On 19 January 1794 Haydn departed for London, accompanied by the former Esterházy copyist Johann Elssler, now his valet, copyist and constant companion. They arrived on February 5. On the way they stayed in Passau, where he heard a choral arrangement of the Seven Last Words by the local Kapellmeister, Joseph Friebert, something which stuck in Haydn's mind for a long while and bore fruit 2 or 3 years later.

The Professional Concert was so thoroughly trounced financially after their 1792 debacle that they disbanded. So in 1794 Haydn and Salomon had the city music scene to themselves. Symphony Hob 99 had its premiered on February 10th, Hob 101 on March 3rd and Hob 100 on March 31st, incidentally Haydn's 62 birthday. In the summer Haydn traveled to Portsmouth, the Isle of Wight, Bath and Bristol. He really did make the most of his opportunity being in a foreign land; his off-seasons were all spent traveling about visiting and seeing the sights.

Haydn's compositions from 1794 are more heterogeneous than those from 1791–2. He returned to piano music for the first time since 1790, composing the set of trios (accompanied sonatas, lest we forget) Hob 15:21–23, Maria Hermenegild, the wife of Anton's successor Prince Nicolaus II. In addition he wrote what were to be his last 3 keyboard sonatas. His friend Therese (Jansen) Bartolozzi, a student of Clementi who was at that time still an amateur, but as good as nearly any professional, received the dedications of #60 & 62 (Hob 50 & 52). Hob 52 is the most technically demanding sonata in Haydn's entire output, and a mainstay in the repertory even today.

Another genre he took up again owing to the influence of a lady was the solo song. The muse was Anne Hunter (1742–1821), another well-to-do widow (of the famous surgeon John Hunter) and a minor poet, who supplied the texts for at least nine of Haydn's 14 songs in English; 12 appeared as two sets of Original Canzonettas, six in 1794 and then six more the year following. He also composed numerous arias, divertimentos, marches, canons and other works.

Haydn's London visits were the highpoint of his career up to that time. Griesinger reports that he earned 24,000 gulden and netted 13,000 (the equivalent of more than 20 years' salary at the Esterházy court), and that he 'considered the days spent in England the happiest of his life. He was everywhere appreciated there; it opened a new world to him'.

The music of 1794;

Hob 01_102 Symphony in Bb
Hanover Band / Goodman
Hob 01_103 Symphony in Eb
La Petite Bande / Kuijken
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Goodman101_102cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Kuijken103_104cover.jpg)

Hob 04_01 Trio in C for 2 Flutes & Cello
Hob 04_02 Triosatz in G for 2 Flutes & Cello
Hob 04_03 Trio in G for 2 Flutes & Cello
Hob 04_04 Triosatz in G for 2 Flutes & Cello
Camerata Köln
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Londonflutetrioscpo.jpg)

Hob 15a_32 Sonata in G for Violin & Keyboard
Bologni (Violin) / Modugno (Fortepiano)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnViolinSonatascover.jpg)

Hob 15_21 Trio in C
Hob 15_22 Trio in Eb
Hob 15_23 Trio in d
Hob 15_32 Trio in G
Trio 1790
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/1790v4.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/1790v5.jpg)

Hob 16_50 Sonata #60 in C for Fortepiano
Bart van Oort
Hob 16_51 Sonata #61 in D for Fortepiano
Richard Burnett
Hob 16_52 Sonata #62 in Eb for Fortepiano
Andreas Staier
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardSonatasCompleteBrilliantcover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardBurnettEarlyPianoscover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardandreas1.jpg)

Hob 24a_09 Mare Clausum
Tafelmusik / Weil
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnWeilMassesCompletecover.jpg)

Six Original English Canzonet's (on Poems by Ann Hunter) Book I
Hob 26a_25 Song with Keyboard - 'The mermaid's song'
Hob 26a_26 Song with Keyboard - 'Recollection'
Hob 26a_30 Song with Keyboard - 'Fidelity'
Emma Kirkby (Soprano) / Marcia Hadjimarkos (1790's Walter reproduction Fortepiano)
Hob 26a_27 Song with Keyboard - 'A pastoral song' (My mother bids me bind my hair...)
Hob 26a_28 Song with Keyboard - 'Despair' (The anguish of my bursting heart)
Hob 26a_29 Song with Keyboard - 'Pleasing pain'
James Griffett (Tenor) \ Bradford Tracey (1798 Broadwood Fortepiano)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKirkbyHadjimarkoscover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnGriffettTraceycover-1.jpg)

Hob 28_13 Overture in C to 'Windsor Castle' & 'L'Anima del Filosofo'
London Classical Players / Norrington
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnNorrington99100cover.jpg)

"We will start out our evening's entertainment with a new grand ouverture by Dr. Haydn....." The symphony Hob 102, a popular favorite and played here in lovely fashion by the always perky Hanover Band / Goodman. Composed in late 1794 for the 1795 season, this work showcases Haydn's compositional maturity, and this disk does a fine job of letting the music speak out. So too with Hob 103, another late 1794 work premiered in 1795. Our performers this time, La Petite Bande / Kuijken are at their best here. Nice performance that is always a pleasure to listen to.

Our next set of works is a chamber music gem that is all too often overlooked. There 4 trios for 2 Flutes and Cello are very pleasant entertainment indeed. This version, one of several reasons to find this Camerata Köln disk (it also has the three trios for Fortepiano, Flute & Cello Hob 15_15-17 in nice versions). Sitting here right this minute listening to these little flute duets even has ME wanting to listen to flute music! :o :o :)

OK, so let's talk violin sonatas for a moment here. Did Haydn ever actually write any violin sonatas? Well, in order that you should be in on what Bologni & Modugno have to say about that subject, I will tell you in a short bit what they say in lengthier form in the liner notes. There are three "attributed to J. Haydn" works on this disk, and very nice they are too. Nicely written and nicely played. However, there is no evidence to substantiate an attribution to Haydn, and I learned a long time ago that "it sounds like, it has to be..." doesn't cut it when it comes to "who wrote that?" kinds of questions. Also included here is a duet version of the lovely Trio Hob 31 in e minor, with the "Jacob's Dream" finale that he composed for Jansen as well: the finale originated as an occasional piece titled 'Jacob's Dream!', designed to amuse her by showing up the insufficiencies of a self-important violinist in the higher registers. Now, the final work here, Hob 15a_32 Sonata in G for Violin & Keyboard, is also a trio "accompanied sonata". For years it was believed to be Haydn's only actual violin sonata. Whether it is or isn't is hard to tell, since it was published in London and Vienna (Artaria) at the same time, and in London it was a trio and in Vienna it was a violin sonata. I am keeping it MY version of the list because I think it has a legitimate claim. And next year I will use the same logic to include Hob 15a_31 in e on the list. Why? Well, I really like them, and these versions are especially nice to listen to. And because it's my list, and you can not include them in your list. :D :D

And speaking of accompanied sonatas, there is another trio of trios, in fact, a quartet of trios, in this year's crop. First, Hob 21-23 are dedicated to Maria Hermenegild, the wife of Anton's successor Prince Nicolaus II. Then, the previously discussed Hob 32 in G. As I have vowed, I have stayed with Trio 1790 here too, despite having 7 or 8 very fine other versions of them. You will probably find whatever version you have to be eminently satisfactory, although if you are shopping still for a box'O'trios, you could do far worse than the Trio 1790, which is recently released in a collected box. :)

Oort, Burnett & Staier. I'm back again all over the place with my sonata selections though. I really do hate to leave anyone out. If you have a nice big box by one artist, like Brautigam, Schornsheim or Beghin, then don't despair, I would have gladly had any one of them. The music here is excellent, and if Hob 52 doesn't make you recalculate Haydn's musical abilities (not that anyone would ever sell him short), you are too far beyond me!

The "Mare clausum" is a little cantata for Bass with chorus and instruments that is more properly called "Invocation of Neptune", although it got the name "Mare clausum" because the text of the cantata came from a (early 17th century) book by that name. It is really pretty cool, and it shows up here, surprisingly enough in Weil's "Complete Masses" box! Go figure. :D

We come now to the Book I of the "Original Canzonettas". As something that has flown a bit under the radar, they are surprisingly nice little songs. Strange to hear Haydn sung in English. What most people who even know the works at all probably don't know is that they aren't necessarily written for a woman's voice. Haydn himself sang them for George III and his wife, Queen Charlotte (who was a huge fan of his). So for this hour or so of entertainment, I have taken three of them performed by soprano Emma Kirkby accompanied by Marcia Hadjimarkos, and interspersed them with three performed by James Griffett accompanied by Bradford Tracey. I think the effect is very much in keeping with what a social evening in a London household would have been like.

Finally, despite it being 'outlawed' to play any music in any venue from the banned performance of 'L'Anima Filosofo' ('Orpheo et Euridice'), Haydn was called on to contribute an overture to an English Opera by Salomon in Convent Garden entitled "Windsor Castle". What he did contribute was this overture, so it finally did get performed, the only work other than an aria by Storace that ever got performed in Haydn's lifetime. I went with Norrington here, but if you got that Goodman disk for Symphony 102, you will find it on there too. Either version is a nice addition. :)

So that's 1794. The music and stories of these years are so tightly woven that after all this time (since 1749, it has been!) the chronological method gets difficult to write and follow. That's the point though. The story of Haydn is so poorly told that it is nearly impossible, by any means other than dedicated reading and rereading of the sources, to figure out what happened and when. So I hope that by the end of this saga, you (and I) will have a better grip on it. I think it helps to appreciate this great music even more!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 04, 2012, 07:27:53 AM

I thought some might be interested in this concert announcement from London, 1795. Among other things it shows that Haydn was doing more than his own subscription concerts. He did at least as many of these charity affairs. Notice the lineup. Not only varied, but it's a great long list relative to what we would hear today. Note also that Haydn's contribution (aside from "leading from the fortepiano") is a symphony, and it is played in the place of honor, which is to say, the first piece in Act II.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/CharityconcertposterApr95.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 04, 2012, 07:34:42 AM

2 notes;

#1; if you don't know, you can click that picture and it gets larger, large enough to easily read.

#2; "Decayed musicians"! I love that. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on February 04, 2012, 09:16:54 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 04, 2012, 07:34:42 AM
#2; "Decayed musicians"! I love that. :)

Decayed and residing in England! ;D I love reading material like these from the past; thanks very much for posting it.

One question: in what sense is the word orchestra used here, and how is it different from "the band" (four hundred performers! :o What was Karajan doing there?)?

P.S.: What's with the capitalisation of the first letters of a few words popping up in 'weird' places?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 04, 2012, 09:24:52 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on February 04, 2012, 09:16:54 AM
Decayed and residing in England! ;D I love reading material like these from the past; thanks very much for posting it.

One question: in what sense is the word orchestra used here, and how is it different from "the band" (four hundred performers! :o What was Karajan doing there?)?

P.S.: What's with the capitalisation of the first letters of a few words popping up in 'weird' places?

Me too, my wife and I had a big laugh while I was scanning it.

I looked at that context several times over and decided that they are using 'orchestra' here to mean a physical place for the performers to perch (usually they stood back then, so I won't say "to sit"). Like you could call a pit an orchestra if you were referring to where they performed from. The noun "band" was nearly always used at that time to denote the musicians themselves. Also, note they are performing Handel as a finale. I am very certain that the huge chorus that was typical at that time in England is included in the overall number of musicians. That's still a bunch!

The upper Case, Apparently randomly used There, is also very typical of the time. Also, Sometimes a large first letter, particularly an S for example, doesn't necessarily Denote a capital, it's just Big. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 04, 2012, 09:26:38 AM

Very cool, Gurn. Neat that they included some Haydn in the Handel concert. >:D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 04, 2012, 09:28:11 AM

Quote from: Bogey on February 04, 2012, 09:26:38 AM
Very cool, Gurn. Neat that they included some Haydn in the Handel concert. >:D

:P

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 04, 2012, 09:29:40 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 04, 2012, 09:28:11 AM
:P

8)

On a serious note, where did this image come from?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 04, 2012, 09:33:08 AM

Quote from: Bogey on February 04, 2012, 09:29:40 AM
On a serious note, where did this image come from?

I have a very large book (a "coffee table" type of book) called "Haydn; A Documentary Study" by H.C. Robbins-Landon. I scanned the page this AM, it was as big a page as my scanner would handle! :)

It has some of the nicest pictures in it of any book I own, all printed on great, glossy paper.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 04, 2012, 09:34:13 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 04, 2012, 09:33:08 AM
I have a very large book (a "coffee table" type of book) called "Haydn; A Documentary Study" by H.C. Robbins-Landon. I scanned the page this AM, it was as big a page as my scanner would handle! :)

It has some of the nicest pictures in it of any book I own, all printed on great, glossy paper.

8)

Cool.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on February 04, 2012, 09:36:17 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 04, 2012, 09:24:52 AM
I looked at that context several times over and decided that they are using 'orchestra' here to mean a physical place for the performers to perch (usually they stood back then, so I won't say "to sit"). Like you could call a pit an orchestra if you were referring to where they performed from.

I had never come across the term orchestra used to refer a place where the artists performed, but as it turns out that's in fact the origin of the term! (As per Etymonline (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=orchestra&allowed_in_frame=0) anyway.) Well, that's something new for the day. :)

QuoteAlso, note they are performing Handel as a finale. I am very certain that the huge chorus that was typical at that time in England is included in the overall number of musicians. That's still a bunch!

But still 400 does seem a lot, what, after this HIP talk of reduced forces back then and all that.... That's like half the strength of a Mahler symphony and we haven't even reached the 1800s. ;D

Quote
The upper Case, Apparently randomly used There, is also very typical of the time. Also, Sometimes a large first letter, particularly an S for example, doesn't necessarily Denote a capital, it's just Big. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 04, 2012, 09:46:25 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on February 04, 2012, 09:36:17 AM
I had never come across the term orchestra used to refer a place where the artists performed, but as it turns out that's in fact the origin of the term! (As per Etymonline (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=orchestra&allowed_in_frame=0) anyway.) Well, that's something new for the day. :)

Modern writers have a bad habit of glossing that sort of stuff over to avoid confusion. But if you read the old sources (critically) you run into usages like that a lot. I love learning new stuff just that way. :)

QuoteBut still 400 does seem a lot, what, after this HIP talk of reduced forces back then and all that.... That's like half the strength of a Mahler symphony and we haven't even reached the 1800s. ;D

It was actually a very humble amount for England at that time. They had choruses of 800-1000 for the Handel festivals. Also, I look at this particular affair as being just like the ones they had annually in Vienna (The Society of Friends of Music) that Haydn also contributed to annually, along with Mozart and every other musician. It was specifically a widows and orphans fund for dead musicians' families. IIRC< he wrote Il Ritorno di Tobia for one of those affairs, and also donated the rights to The Creation and The Seasons for an annual performance every year. The point being (you knew I would get to it) that every musician in Vienna donated his appearance free/gratis for the charity. Lot and lots of them! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on February 04, 2012, 09:51:33 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 04, 2012, 09:46:25 AM
It was actually a very humble amount for England at that time. They had choruses of 800-1000 for the Handel festivals. Also, I look at this particular affair as being just like the ones they had annually in Vienna (The Society of Friends of Music) that Haydn also contributed to annually, along with Mozart and every other musician. It was specifically a widows and orphans fund for dead musicians' families. IIRC< he wrote Il Ritorno di Tobia for one of those affairs, and also donated the rights to The Creation and The Seasons for an annual performance every year. The point being (you knew I would get to it) that every musician in Vienna donated his appearance free/gratis for the charity. Lot and lots of them! :)
8)

Very interesting. Some more new information. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 04, 2012, 10:05:07 AM

What surprised me the most about the document was the abscence of the "s" that was used in a lot of printing of that time where it almost looks like an "f":

(http://teachhistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/bosgazmastfinal.jpg)

Here it is used both ways in the same text;

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-k2jNnfMX7n8/TrrcSE0xkNI/AAAAAAAAA8s/CqZuHc8i2Qc/s1600/BostonMassacreObituary_of_Patrick_Carr_1770.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on February 04, 2012, 10:12:07 AM

Quote from: Bogey on February 04, 2012, 10:05:07 AM
What surprised me the most about the document was the abscence of the "s" that was used in a lot of printing of that time where it almost looks like an "f"

It's still there, ~~Bruce~~ (sorry!) Bill -- I had to re-read some of the words to make sense of them. Look at, for example, Musicians (the decayed ones), Consist and Orchestra (Nota Bene) and the plenty of Messrs. Note also that these appear in the middle of the words.

As an aside: That f-like S is still used today, but in a different context (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integral#Notation). :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 04, 2012, 10:12:50 AM

Quote from: Bogey on February 04, 2012, 10:05:07 AM
What surprised me the most about the document was the abscence of the "s" that was used in a lot of printing of that time where it almost looks like an "f":

(http://teachhistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/bosgazmastfinal.jpg)

Here it is used both ways in the same text;

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-k2jNnfMX7n8/TrrcSE0xkNI/AAAAAAAAA8s/CqZuHc8i2Qc/s1600/BostonMassacreObituary_of_Patrick_Carr_1770.jpg)

Here is a surmise, FWIW; both of yours date from early 1770's America, while mine is from mid-1790's England. I am thinking that this might have been a time of rapid growth and advancement in such forms as legible writing. If it was going to happen (and it certainly was and did), I would think England would be on the cutting edge because in times of rapid expansion like that, the normal conservatism of being the establishment would be mush less applicable. That's just an opinion, I may be wrong. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 04, 2012, 10:13:19 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 04, 2012, 07:27:53 AM
I thought some might be interested in this concert announcement from London, 1795. Among other things it shows that Haydn was doing more than his own subscription concerts. He did at least as many of these charity affairs. Notice the lineup. Not only varied, but it's a great long list relative to what we would hear today. Note also that Haydn's contribution (aside from "leading from the fortepiano") is a symphony, and it is played in the place of honor, which is to say, the first piece in Act II.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/CharityconcertposterApr95.jpg)

8)

Let me bring it over to this page.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 04, 2012, 10:15:27 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on February 04, 2012, 10:12:07 AM
It's still there, Bruce -- I had to re-read some of the words to make sense of them. Look at, for example, Musicians (the decayed ones), Consist and Orchestra (Nota Bene) and the plenty of Messrs. Note also that these appear in the middle of the words.

As an aside: That f-like S is still used today, but in a different context (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integral#Notation). :)

It's becoming less of a prominent feature, but the most glaring example if "Mifcellaneous" where it is used both ways! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on February 04, 2012, 10:18:30 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 04, 2012, 10:15:27 AM
It's becoming less of a prominent feature, but the most glaring example if "Mifcellaneous" where it is used both ways! :)

8)

As I said, it appears only in between the ends of the words; any at the beginning or at the end looks 'normal'.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 04, 2012, 10:20:27 AM

Yes. Yes. Thanks!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 04, 2012, 10:29:42 AM

Also note the pit box price....same as the Mad Hatters hat:

(http://charlespaolino.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/mad20hatter.jpg)

Also, that price would have been about £300 today...which is around $460? Is that correct?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 04, 2012, 10:49:30 AM

Quote from: Bogey on February 04, 2012, 10:29:42 AM
Also note the pit box price....same as the Mad Hatters hat:

(http://charlespaolino.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/mad20hatter.jpg)

Also, that price would have been about £300 today...which is around $460? Is that correct?

I suspect 10 & 6 was a lot of money back then, although I haven't looked into conversion rates. The guinea for 2 tickets anywhere in the house was certainly a lot of money! However, to put into context, this was a gala sponsored by the Prince and his brother to raise money for indigent survivors of dead musicians, so you were paying a premium price that was really a charitable donation, sort of like the $10,000/plate political dinners of hard peas and rubber chicken... :)

Florestan and I have been discussing, en passant, the fact that music in those times was not intended for ME, but despite that in England, at least, it was "open to the public", it was really only the wealthy public who could afford it. :-\

Thanks for that observation, I hadn't noted it yet. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 04, 2012, 03:06:16 PM

Part 44

1795

The stretch from January 1794 to July 1795 is one continuous stream of music-making, from composing, concertizing, partying with the Royals and giving music lessons (!) to Mrs. Schröter; Haydn was the eye of the hurricane in the London music scene of the time. It is really quite difficult to imagine today's equivalent.

For the 1795 season Salomon abandoned his concerts, owing to the "difficulty of obtaining vocal performers of the first rank from abroad". Haydn (and Salomon too) therefore allied himself with the so-called Opera Concerts, directed by the violinist and composer Giovanni Battista Viotti, with an even larger orchestra of approximately 60 players. Symphony Hob 102 was first given on February 2nd, Hob 103 ('Drumroll') on March 2nd, and Hob 104 ('The 12th which I have composed in England', Haydn wrote on the autograph) at his benefit concert (all proceeds went to himself) on May 4th. His success was greater than ever; following the benefit, Burney wrote that his 1795 symphonies were 'such as were never heard before, of any mortal's production; of what Apollo & the Muses compose or perform we can only judge by such productions as these'. Another important work given its première at this concert was the cantata/scena Berenice, che fai, composed for the reigning prima donna, Brigida Giorgi Banti.

Piano music was represented by the superb set of Trios Hob 24–6, dedicated to Mrs. Schröter. Therese Jansen, the pianista whom we met last year, got married to a son of the engraver Francesco Bartolozzi (see inset below). Hadyn composed Trio Hob 31 for Jansen as well: the finale (1794) had originated as an occasional piece titled 'Jacob's Dream', designed to amuse her by showing up the insufficiencies of a self-important violinist in the higher registers.

Haydn in 1791
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnOttc.jpg)
Early on during his first visit Haydn sat for a miniature portrait by A.M. Ott which was engraved by Haydn's close friend, Francesco Bartolozzi (1727–1815) and published by H. Humphrey on 4 April 1791. Bartolozzi was trained in Italy before moving to London in 1764 to take up a royal appointment. He left in 1802 to become Director of the National Academy in Lisbon. When his son married Therese Jansen in 1795, Haydn was one of the witnesses. She was a fine pianist (she studied with Clementi) and Haydn dedicated a number of works to her.
Ott's original miniature was lost for over 200 years before coming to light at a London auction in 1996. Courtesy Royal College of Music, London

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/WeddingWitnessfromLandon.jpg) Courtesy HCR Landon

Also in this year, King George asked Haydn to stay on and become a citizen. He refused, in the process putting some distance between himself and the Royals. Whether he seriously contemplated staying is not known. Prince Anton Esterházy had died in 1794, freeing him from even a nominal obligation to the court. But the question was settled when Anton's successor, Nicolaus II, offered him reappointment as Esterházy Kapellmeister. As much as Haydn admired England, he never probably felt at home there. The noise and constant hubbub were a huge burden. Still, he remained in London for two months following the end of the 1795 season, composing trios and canzonets and seeing to the publication of many of his English compositions. He established new, long-term relations, for example with the 'musick seller' F.A. Hyde, an agent for Longman & Broderip, with whom he signed an elaborate contract in 1796. He finally departed (according to Dies) on August 15th, traveling via Hamburg and Dresden and arriving in Vienna presumably around the beginning of September. His new house was still not ready for occupancy, so he took lodgings on the Neuer Markt in the old city. The Peripatetic Era was over.

The music of 1795;

Hob 01_104 Symphony in D
Orchestra of the 18th Century / Frans Brüggen
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnBruggenLondon2cover-1.jpg)

Hob 08_03bis March in Eb 'For the Royal Society of Musicians'
Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnEarlyDivertimenticover.jpg)

Hob 15a_31 Sonata in eb for Violin & Keyboard "Jacob's Ladder"
Bologni (Violin / Modugno (Fortepiano)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnViolinSonatascover.jpg)

Hob 15_24 Trio in D
Hob 15_25 Trio in G
Hob 15_26 Trio in f#
Hob 15_31 Trio in eb
Trio 1790
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/1790v5.jpg)

Hob 17a_deest / 08_01 March in Eb for Keyboard
Hob 17a_deest / 08_02 March in C for Keyboard
Hob 17a_deest / 08_03 March in Eb for Keyboard
Bart van Oort
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardOortPiecescoverlarger-1.jpg)

Hob 24a_10 Scena & Aria - "Berenice, che fai?"
Freiburger Barockorchester / Jacobs / Bernarda Fink (Mezzo)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HMJacobs91_92_scenacover.jpg)

Six Original English Canzonet's (on Poems by Ann Hunter & Others) Book II
Hob 26a_31 Song with Keyboard - 'Sailor's song'
Hob 26a_32 Song with Keyboard - 'The wanderer'
Hob 26a_36 Song with Keyboard - 'Content' (Transport of Pleasure)
James Griffett (Tenor) \ Bradford Tracey (1798 Broadwood Fortepiano)
Hob 26a_33 Song with Keyboard - 'Sympathy' Elly Ameling / Jorg Demus
Hob 26a_34 Song with Keyboard - 'She never told her love'
Hob 26a_35 Song with Keyboard - 'Piercing eyes'
Anne Cambier (Soprano) \ Jan Vermeulen (1795 Walter reproduction Fortepiano)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnLiederVermeulencover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnGriffettTraceycover-1.jpg)

Hob 26a_41 Song with Keyboard - 'The spirit's song' (Hunter)
Jean Danton / Igor Kipnis (1796 Broadwood Fortepiano)
Hob 26a_42 Song with Keyboard - 'O tuneful Voice' (Hunter)
Elly Ameling / Jorg Demus
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKipnisDantoncover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnAmelingDemusSongscover.jpg)

50 Settings of Scottish Folk Songs for William Napier**

Hob 31a_101 Scottish Song 'The bonny gray ey'd morn'
Hob 31a_102 Scottish Song 'The bonnie wee thing'
Hob 31a_103 Scottish Song 'Roy's Wife'
Hob 31a_104 Scottish Song 'While hopeless'
Hob 31a_105 Scottish Song 'Frae the friends and land I love'
Hob 31a_106 Scottish Song 'The shepherd's son'
Hob 31a_107 Scottish Song 'A cold frosty morning'
Hob 31a_108 Scottish Song 'O for ane and twenty, Tam'
......................................
Hob 31a_143 Scottish Song '(Morag) The young Highland rover'
Hob 31a_144 Scottish Song 'A country lassie'
Hob 31a_145 Scottish Song 'Strathallan's lament'
Hob 31a_146 Scottish Song 'Tho' for seven years and mair'
Hob 31a_147 Scottish Song 'Bess and her spinning wheel'
Hob 31a_148 Scottish Song 'Kellyburn Braes'
Hob 31a_149 Scottish Song 'O'er The Hills And Far Away'
Hob 31a_150 Scottish Song 'Strephon and Lydia'
Haydn Trio Eisenstadt / L. Anderson / J. MacDougall
** - Complete listing available upon request
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnScottishFolksongscover.jpg)

Well, we have come a long way since our discussion of Symphony #1 way back in 1757! Now comes 1795 and symphony Hob 104 (but really #106). I really felt an onus to make a good choice here. Compounded by the fact that everyone and their second cousin's brother-in-law has performed this work. In the end, I went with Brüggen et al because they always seem to have a bit more of a 'big band' sound, which finally is totally appropriate for the 60 or so musicians performing the premiere. And well-played, as always. I think you will like this version. But if you have the one from the brother-in-law, you will probably like it too, it's hard to go wrong when the music is just so good. :)

Our Herr Huss hasn't failed us yet, and once again, we have a march, this one composed as a gift for the Royal Society of Musicians. It is really a reworking of the Prince of Wales March of 1792, with many more instruments added, so it sounds very grand indeed.

If you read last year's discussion of the Violin Sonata issue, then you know that this year's Hob 15_31 is an extension of last year's 15_32 situation. Whatever the true story of these works, I have no problem bringing myself to listen to these very nicely played versions, sans cello. Perhaps even as we speak, some scholar is shivering in a garret in Vienna (or London) over the documents that will determine the answer once for all. Or not.... :D

This year's ~~Trios~~ erm... accompanied sonatas include everyone's all-time favorite. Hob 25 in G, the one with the Gypsy Rondo. As a gift for his girlfriend (let's be honest here) Rebecca Schröter, it is hard to beat. Its companion in f# minor is a treat of a totally different sort, as the key would have you believe. Beckers was a connoisseur, her husband was a brilliant pianist and highly popular figure on the London musical scene a decade before, and she was a very fine keyboardist herself. So Haydn didn't stint when it came to writing music for her. As you expect by now, I didn't have to stray from the Trio 1790 to have a fine representation of these works. There are only a few dozens to choose from, if Trio 1790 doesn't suit you for whatever reason, choose another and you will be transported. :)

Well, Bart treats us yet again to some piano reductions of marches. Three short, peppy little works that have helped to preserve the marches for us. As always, this little box of treats doesn't disappoint.

The scena Berenice, che fai?, composed for the prima donna of the Opera Concerts and one of the most popular singers in London is a stirring piece. It is based on a scene from Antigone by Metastasio. The heroine, Berenice, is lamenting the death of her lover, Demetrio. She is slowly going mad, and she begs Demetrio's ghost not to leave her. As she slips further away from reality, she begs death to take her too. The tonal scheme here, bouncing around to different minor modes to represent her madness, is particularly special, as are the arioso sections. You really should have a version of this piece, and the one I have chosen, with The Freiburg Baroque / Rene Jacobs accompanying the wonderful Bernada Fink (OK, her name is unfortunate, but damn, she can really sing!) is one worth having.

Now that we have come to Book II of the Original English Canzonettas, I have stayed with the scheme which pleased me in Book I. Instead of Ms Kirkby though, we have Anne Cambier accompanied by Jan Vermeulen, and have stayed with Griffett and Tracey for the tenor version. Book II is not all Hunter though, there is one that sneaked in from another Englishman, some chap named Shakespeare (She never told her love is from 12th Night). Another nice evening spent.

And there are another two songs, singles they are, both on texts by Hunter. The first, The Spirit's Song is one of Haydn's finest efforts in the English Lied. It is thought to have been originally intended to be one of the canzonettas, but is too close in style to a couple of the others so was released on its own. I chose this nice version by Jean Danton and Igor Kipnis, not only because it is very fine on its own merits, but also in a rather tributary way, this disk was Kipnis' last recording before his death. He was a pioneer in the field of historic keyboards and I couldn't neglect this fine recording altogether. The second single, O Tuneful Voice, is also based on a text by Hunter. She presented it to him in 1795, but the actual date of its setting is totally unknown. So I have elected to place it here with the other English songs, and also to use this version by Ameling/Demus. I chose it simply because it gives me the chance to say that this entire box is so good that it could have represented the entire oeuvre of songs with nothing lost. Just a reminder. :)

Finally, another fifty folk song settings for Mr. Napier. As always, superbly performed by the Haydn Trio Eisenstadt and Andersen & MacDougall.

So that's it for England. Haydn never went back, but he and the country left their mark on each other in a lasting way. Now we will move on to the Golden Years in Vienna. Without the London Experience, these would probably have never happened. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 04, 2012, 06:48:45 PM

I love typography trivia!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on February 04, 2012, 07:49:07 PM

About the concert for decayed musicians--
It seems that for most of the concertos they list the soloists but not the composer. Mr. Lindley performed a 'cello concerto, Mr. Ashe a "German flute" concerto and Madam Gillberg a violin concerto. But the only composers other than Haydn and Handel mentioned are Cramer, probably because he was "leader of the band" and Pleyel. Apparently the audiences were not too picky about whose music they heard, as long as it was music. (There was a composer of the period named Lindley--he may have been the 'cellist, in which case he might have been performing his own composition.) Of all the songs, not only are we not told the composers, we are not even told the title!

And besides Mr. Cramer leading the band, and Dr. Haydn presiding at the fortepiano, there are two conductors. What were their duties?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on February 04, 2012, 10:23:21 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 04, 2012, 06:48:45 PM
I love typography trivia!

C and T, whenever they are next to each other and in that order (in the non-all caps words), seem to be joined by a little whatchamacallit.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 05, 2012, 03:15:06 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on February 04, 2012, 10:23:21 PM
C and T, whenever they are next to each other and in that order (in the non-all caps words), seem to be joined by a little whatchamacallit.

We typographic professionals don't use the term 'whatchamacallit'. More properly, it is called a 'thingie'. :D

I believe it is a serif, actually. Not 100% sure though :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on February 05, 2012, 08:02:41 AM

Quote from: Bogey on February 04, 2012, 10:05:07 AM
What surprised me the most about the document was the abscence of the "s" that was used in a lot of printing of that time where it almost looks like an "f":

When I was at school there was an old book in the library, a Shakespeare. I remember it had the line (from The Tempest) Where the bee fucks there fuck I.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 05, 2012, 08:49:37 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 04, 2012, 07:49:07 PM
About the concert for decayed musicians--
It seems that for most of the concertos they list the soloists but not the composer. Mr. Lindley performed a 'cello concerto, Mr. Ashe a "German flute" concerto and Madam Gillberg a violin concerto. But the only composers other than Haydn and Handel mentioned are Cramer, probably because he was "leader of the band" and Pleyel. Apparently the audiences were not too picky about whose music they heard, as long as it was music. (There was a composer of the period named Lindley--he may have been the 'cellist, in which case he might have been performing his own composition.) Of all the songs, not only are we not told the composers, we are not even told the title!

And besides Mr. Cramer leading the band, and Dr. Haydn presiding at the fortepiano, there are two conductors. What were their duties?

That's an interesting observation. It goes to the essence of the status of music in society. In the 18th century, the so-called 'Canon of Western Music' hadn't been invented yet. 75 years later, the composers' position in this whole affair would have assumed an entirely different stature, but at that time, the sad fact is that the audience didn't really care who the composer was. They clearly knew Lindley by reputation as a good cellist, and so that is important to the advert. I don't think it was Thomas Lindley, IIRC he was dead by then of drowning. Of the other names mentioned outright; Handel was Handel. He was a minor god in England and therefore a big draw. Haydn was reigning doyen of the music scene in 1795, so his name was a big draw. Cramer was actually famous, although you wouldn't know it today. He was the top local violinist and orchestra leader in London for the last many years. IIRC, he worked for Bach & Abel when they were still alive. Pleyel was also a big name, which is why they had him for the rival concerts 2 years before. Other than that, the players were probably more important than the composers; bearing in mind that the concertos being played were probably brand new at the time, thus no one would have known them by name anyway. Which may be the single most important factor. :)

Cramer (first violin) and Haydn (continuo keyboard) were serving the position of concertmaster(s). Likely enough that Haydn was more honorary in all works but his own symphony. Of the 2 actual conductors, one would have been keeping the beat for the band, and the other would have been cuing the chorus.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 06, 2012, 03:57:13 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on February 04, 2012, 10:23:21 PM
C and T, whenever they are next to each other and in that order (in the non-all caps words), seem to be joined by a little whatchamacallit.

Although it is also a musical term, typographers call that a ligature. There's a ligature in the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum logo (http://www.gardnermuseum.org/), which I never noticed before.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 06, 2012, 04:00:02 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 05, 2012, 03:15:06 AM
We typographic professionals don't use the term 'whatchamacallit'. More properly, it is called a 'thingie'. :D

I believe it is a serif, actually. Not 100% sure though :)

8)

Serifs are actually in much broader use; they're the wee "stroke-lets" at the end of the broad strokes of each letter. Good illustration right at Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serif) (not surprisingly).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: starrynight on February 06, 2012, 10:38:42 AM

I don't think he could speak any English really? So not a surprise that he didn't stay.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 06, 2012, 11:44:24 AM

Quote from: starrynight on February 06, 2012, 10:38:42 AM
I don't think he could speak any English really? So not a surprise that he didn't stay.

Actually, he made a serious attempt to learn English and could actually get by with it pretty well. Of course, you are already aware that the Royals at that time were the Hanover's, very much Germans. So the class of people that he associated with spoke a surprising amount of German too, at least enough for them all to get on with.

The only real complaints I ever read from him about England were all the noise (seriously drove him nuts, which I can personally relate to!) and he felt the justice system was incredibly harsh and oddly inequitable. An example he gave (from actual happenings during his stay) was that if I loaned you a million pounds for some reason and you didn't pay me back, that was hard cheese for me. However, if you were caught stealing a loaf of bread, it was the death sentence for you, and not even the King could intercede on your behalf. I have to agree, those are inequitable. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 06, 2012, 02:30:33 PM

I've now officially ripped all the Haydn quartets I've got (Amadeus Quartet — Opp. 51, 54, 55, 64, 71 & 74; Quatuor Mosaïques — Opp. 64, 76 & 77) and loaded onto the portable device . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 06, 2012, 03:05:28 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 06, 2012, 02:30:33 PM
I've now officially ripped all the Haydn quartets I've got (Amadeus Quartet — Opp. 51, 54, 55, 64, 71 & 74; Quatuor Mosaïques — Opp. 64, 76 & 77) and loaded onto the portable device . . . .

I see that they have one opus in common (64). I would be curious to hear your thoughts on their similarities and/or differences. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on February 06, 2012, 03:20:22 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 06, 2012, 02:30:33 PM
I've now officially ripped all the Haydn quartets I've got (Amadeus Quartet — Opp. 51, 54, 55, 64, 71 & 74; Quatuor Mosaïques — Opp. 64, 76 & 77) and loaded onto the portable device . . . .

No Op 50, the finest ones!? :'(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on February 06, 2012, 03:21:38 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 06, 2012, 02:30:33 PM
I've now officially ripped all the Haydn quartets I've got (Amadeus Quartet — Opp. 51, 54, 55, 64, 71 & 74; Quatuor Mosaïques — Opp. 64, 76 & 77) and loaded onto the portable device . . . .

Doesn't your Amadeus box have Op. 76, 77 and 103? My box does. But we may have different collections.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on February 06, 2012, 03:22:54 PM

Quote from: DavidW on February 06, 2012, 03:20:22 PM
No Op 50, the finest ones!? :'(

No. I often wondered why the Amadeus Quartet started their cycle with Op. 51 and not 50.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: starrynight on February 07, 2012, 03:48:05 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 06, 2012, 11:44:24 AM
Actually, he made a serious attempt to learn English and could actually get by with it pretty well. Of course, you are already aware that the Royals at that time were the Hanover's, very much Germans. So the class of people that he associated with spoke a surprising amount of German too, at least enough for them all to get on with.

The only real complaints I ever read from him about England were all the noise (seriously drove him nuts, which I can personally relate to!) and he felt the justice system was incredibly harsh and oddly inequitable. An example he gave (from actual happenings during his stay) was that if I loaned you a million pounds for some reason and you didn't pay me back, that was hard cheese for me. However, if you were caught stealing a loaf of bread, it was the death sentence for you, and not even the King could intercede on your behalf. I have to agree, those are inequitable. :-\

8)

Ah ok, I know he needed a translator when he first went. And I thought Mozart brought up his lack of knowing the language among his concerns before he went. But I suppose he must have picked up some of it in the time he was there.

As for lack of justice they had serfdom and absolute monarchies in parts of Europe up till around that time, so Britain was quite progressive on some things.

It's interesting though that Handel managed to make the change but Haydn didn't. Handel of course was used to travelling most of his life, having been in Italy for a while too I think. Whether Mozart would have gone to Britain too of course we will never know. Being younger there was a chance he may have stayed for longer (and no doubt enjoyed the high life).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 07, 2012, 03:48:58 AM

Quote from: Arnold on February 06, 2012, 03:21:38 PM
Doesn't your Amadeus box have Op. 76, 77 and 103? My box does. But we may have different collections.

:)

Different collections, indeed. I've this 'un:

[asin]B0002U9G9E[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 07, 2012, 03:52:34 AM

Quote from: DavidW on February 06, 2012, 03:20:22 PM
No Op 50, the finest ones!? :'(

Now, Davey, you're not going paulb on us? Haydn's string quartets went downhill after the Op.50? ; )

What is your preferred recording, lad?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 07, 2012, 03:54:54 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 06, 2012, 03:05:28 PM
I see that they have one opus in common (64). I would be curious to hear your thoughts on their similarities and/or differences. :)

8)

I shall apply myself to, if not a close, at least a mid-range comparison, O Gurn. My quick back-of-the-envelope take is that I like both ensembles well, and I enjoy the several angles on the music.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 07, 2012, 03:55:40 AM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/515tnQ1ABML._SL500_AA300_.jpg) +(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51WknUZluvL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) =(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CwV9lkZ1L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 07, 2012, 04:02:59 AM

Thanks!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 07, 2012, 04:04:56 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 07, 2012, 03:52:34 AM
Now, Davey, you're not going paulb on us? Haydn's string quartets went downhill after the Op.50? ; )

What is your preferred recording, lad?

. . . for I see that the Quatuor Mosaïques somehow skipped the Op.50 . . . which is curious, if that be the finest set!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 07, 2012, 04:18:31 AM

Quote from: starrynight on February 07, 2012, 03:48:05 AM
Ah ok, I know he needed a translator when he first went. And I thought Mozart brought up his lack of knowing the language among his concerns before he went. But I suppose he must have picked up some of it in the time he was there.

As for lack of justice they had serfdom and absolute monarchies in parts of Europe up till around that time, so Britain was quite progressive on some things.

It's interesting though that Handel managed to make the change but Haydn didn't. Handel of course was used to travelling most of his life, having been in Italy for a while too I think. Whether Mozart would have gone to Britain too of course we will never know. Being younger there was a chance he may have stayed for longer (and no doubt enjoyed the high life).

Yes, Salomon went along at the first and translated everything. You can see in the London Notebooks that it wasn't long before he started trying to write in English as well. He was much as I am in Spanish; good vocabulary, poor verb declension and sentence construction. So he could understand much more than he could speak. I can relate to that! :)

Yes, Handel was quite a traveler early times. But really, if Haydn had gone nearly anywhere else in Europe, he, just like Mozart, would have got on language-wise quite well. They both spoke Italian like natives, for example, and very passable French. But as I'm sure you've noted, English is difficult even for native speakers... :D

Hmm, Wolfgang and Constanze do London. There's a great story there somewhere. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 07, 2012, 04:20:59 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 07, 2012, 03:54:54 AM
I shall apply myself to, if not a close, at least a mid-range comparison, O Gurn. My quick back-of-the-envelope take is that I like both ensembles well, and I enjoy the several angles on the music.

Thanks. I don't have any recordings of a Romantic-styled quartet doing Haydn, although I have the Amadeus doing some Beethoven. Just curious how they sound vs a known quantity like the Mosaiques. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 07, 2012, 04:27:36 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 07, 2012, 04:04:56 AM
. . . for I see that the Quatuor Mosaïques somehow skipped the Op.50 . . . which is curious, if that be the finest set!

I won't debate David about op.50 (I'll just say he isn't the only one who thinks them Haydn's finest). But they aren't popular. They are sterner, more serious; they don't go down as easily. That may be the reason most quartets (other than those committed to complete cycles) have ignored them. Best op.50? The old Tokyo on DG (oop).

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 07, 2012, 04:29:07 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 07, 2012, 04:04:56 AM
. . . for I see that the Quatuor Mosaïques somehow skipped the Op.50 . . . which is curious, if that be the finest set!

As you may have noted in my survey (1787), the only PI recordings of Op 50 are Festetics and Salomon. And the occasional single like the Schuppanzigh's doing #6. Even in the MI realm, unless and entire cycle is being undertaken, Op 50 gets short shrift. I believe that it is for a couple of reasons; it is known to be a difficult bite to chew for the average listener. In the language of those times, it is for Kenner rather than Liebhaber. And then, it falls between some major brethren, the immensely popular and symbolic Op 33 and the also very popular Op 64. Note that in terms of recording history its immediate neighbor, Op 54/55 gets much the same treatment, also undeservedly so. For me, the period of these composition, say, 1785 to 89, is also home to my favorite Haydn works by far. And the string quartets of those years are no exception in any way. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 07, 2012, 04:30:18 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 07, 2012, 04:27:36 AM
I won't debate David about op.50 (I'll just say he isn't the only one who thinks them Haydn's finest). But they aren't popular. They are sterner, more serious; they don't go down as easily. That may be the reason most quartets (other than those committed to complete cycles) have ignored them. Best op.50? The old Tokyo on DG (oop).

Sarge

I wish I had said that. :D I also can't disagree about the Tokyo Quartet version. It is the standard by which.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 07, 2012, 04:36:00 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 07, 2012, 04:29:07 AMOp 50 gets short shrift. I believe that it is for a couple of reasons; it is known to be a difficult bite to chew for the average listener. In the language of those times, it is for Kenner rather than Liebhaber. And then, it falls between some major brethren, the immensely popular and symbolic Op 33 and the also very popular Op 64. Note that in terms of recording history its immediate neighbor, Op 54/55 gets much the same treatment, also undeservedly so.

I wish I had said that :D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 07, 2012, 04:48:59 AM

Well, this is a 21^st-century composer talking. Haydn didn't write the nut too tough for me to crack . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 07, 2012, 04:52:02 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 07, 2012, 04:48:59 AM
Well, this is a 21^st-century composer talking. Haydn didn't write the nut too tough for me to crack . . . .

:D Hmmm... I smell a challenge coming. More on that later. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 07, 2012, 04:55:50 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 07, 2012, 04:52:02 AM
:D Hmmm... I smell a challenge coming. More on that later. :)

8)

Cool. Bring it on! : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on February 07, 2012, 05:02:11 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 07, 2012, 04:55:50 AM
Cool. Bring it on! : )

21st Century Smackdown Man! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on February 07, 2012, 06:46:07 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 07, 2012, 03:55:40 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51CwV9lkZ1L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

This is the set I have, however, I have it on LPs (it was my first Haydn box set and despite its age is in remarkably good condition) and have transferred it to CDs.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 07, 2012, 10:27:56 AM

Just listened to the b minor quartet, with the two ensembles interleaved (i.e., listening to each movement twice in immediate succession). The first thing which stands out is how, in the outer movements especially, the two ensembles are playing almost precisely the same tempo.

It was an exercise which again demonstrates (for me) the supremacy of the fruit (the banana), for while each of the two ensembles has its own distinct voice, Haydn's writing here shines in both 'manners'. The Amadeus plays more legato, the Mosaïques play more détaché, but in both cases (I find) it is the music which is paramount, and I do not find the manner (in either case) anything of a distraction – more a sort of lens.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 07, 2012, 10:39:43 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 07, 2012, 10:27:56 AM
Just listened to the b minor quartet, with the two ensembles interleaved (i.e., listening to each movement twice in immediate succession). The first thing which stands out is how, in the outer movements especially, the two ensembles are playing almost precisely the same tempo.

It was an exercise which again demonstrates (for me) the supremacy of the fruit (the banana), for while each of the two ensembles has its own distinct voice, Haydn's writing here shines in both 'manners'. The Amadeus plays more legato, the Mosaïques play more détaché, but in both cases (I find) it is the music which is paramount, and I do not find the manner (in either case) anything of a distraction – more a sort of lens.

Just as I have been saying all along. Nice to get some confirmation of that. Also, without even hearing the Amadeus version I would have ventured the legato to them. I am delighted to have reached the same conclusion (albeit over a much larger sampling) as the eminent Dr. Henning. :) Isn't the music just wonderful though?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on February 07, 2012, 10:46:05 AM

As I have been transferring the Amadeus LPs to CD, a real-time process, I am listening to every quartet in that set and reacquainting myself with not only their interpretation, which I have no complaints about, but the many features of these works which bring a broad smile to my face.

Last night I was enjoying the Op. 76#2 - transfixed.

So often the music bursts with joie de vivre and invention that I am almost forced to declare Haydn to be my favorite composer.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 07, 2012, 10:55:38 AM

Quote from: Arnold on February 07, 2012, 10:46:05 AM
As I have been transferring the Amadeus LPs to CD, a real-time process, I am listening to every quartet in that set and reacquainting myself with not only their interpretation, which I have no complaints about, but the many features of these works which bring a broad smile to my face.

Last night I was enjoying the Op. 76#2 - transfixed.

So often the music bursts with joie de vivre and invention that I am almost forced to declare Haydn to be my favorite composer.

:)

:) The more I listen to, the easier it becomes for me to say exactly that. And Op 76 #2 is one of my favorite works in any case. Since my first hearing of it I have preferred it above all. So straightforward, so devious. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on February 07, 2012, 05:26:39 PM

Tokyo is great Karl, but you won't be finding it I don't think (could be wrong though). I also like the Nomos Q:

[asin]B000001RWW[/asin]

I want to try the Auryn Q but I can't find them as a digital download.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 07, 2012, 05:34:44 PM

Quote from: DavidW on February 07, 2012, 05:26:39 PM
Tokyo is great Karl, but you won't be finding it I don't think (could be wrong though). I also like the Nomos Q:

I want to try the Auryn Q but I can't find them as a digital download.

That is what I think too. Every now and then I see it on eBay but always get outbid no matter how much I plunk down. And Arkiv want $35 for the burns! ::) I think the Nomos are a great next choice. Also, and you can write this down to remember it by, 'cause you won't see me do this often; I have The Lindsay's Op 50 and find it quite enjoyable indeed. There, I said it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on February 08, 2012, 02:12:15 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 07, 2012, 05:34:44 PM
and you can write this down to remember it by, 'cause you won't see me do this often; I have The Lindsay's Op 50 and find it quite enjoyable indeed. There, I said it. :)

Chuckles. I knew you weren't all bad. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 08, 2012, 03:16:56 AM

Quote from: DavidW on February 07, 2012, 05:26:39 PM
Tokyo is great Karl, but you won't be finding it I don't think (could be wrong though). I also like the Nomos Q:

[asin]B000001RWW[/asin]a

Cool, Davey! — fact is, I pulled the trigger on that yesterday, on an apparently fortunate impulse : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 08, 2012, 04:18:10 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on February 08, 2012, 02:12:15 AM
Chuckles. I knew you weren't all bad. :D

Well, I probably am all bad, actually, but even at that I get surprised now and then. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 08, 2012, 04:25:18 AM

Surprised by the occasional outcrop of craggy goodness . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 08, 2012, 04:29:58 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 08, 2012, 04:25:18 AM
Surprised by the occasional outcrop of craggy goodness . . . .

Yes, it is incongruent with my self-image... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 11, 2012, 07:19:46 AM

Part 45

1796

Home again. And no longer an unknown quantity. Vienna's peculiar habit of failing to recognize its greatest residents until the rest of the world had led the way held true again. For Haydn truly was famous now throughout Europe and was even known as far off as America, so Vienna could afford to take the chance to extend itself. :)

In addition to that, it was also a great year for music. Well, they all were, yes? But in this year, the seed planted in 1793 on the way back to London, hearing The Seven Last Words sung as an oratorio, sprouted and came to fruition. And a talented inventor who played the trumpet, and knew it could be better, approached him to write what would be his greatest concerto for an instrument that he had never even heard played before, the keyed trumpet. As well, promised pieces for English friends were completed as the finest of his keyboard trios.

But the works which would be prophetic of the remainder of his life were the first two of the so-called 'Six Great Masses'. Because with the exception of some brilliant string quartets and a minor piece here and there, vocal music, especially sacred vocal music, would comprise the remainder of his oeuvre.

Un unusual feature of this year, and possibly inspired by the passion that he had observed in England for group singing (catches and glees were all the rage at that time and Haydn enjoyed them as much as anyone), we find here thirteen 'part-songs'. Haydn said of them that they were composed 'con amore, in happy times and without commission' (Griesinger); as far as we know they (and his canons) are his only works of which this is true.

Then of course, the masses. The numbering of these first two, #9 the Paukenmesse (Missa in Tempore Belli or Mass in Time of War) and #10 the Heiligmesse (Mass for St Bernard) is probably reversed. In any case, these were the beginning of a tradition that lasted during the remainder of Haydn's creative life. Each is distinctive and unusual, none of them can be confused for another or any mass by anyone else either. Another unique achievement in a career that was packed with them.

The music of 1796;

Hob 07e_1 Concerto in Eb for Trumpet
Pinnock, Trevor/English Concert
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnPinnockConcertoscover.jpg)

Hob 15_27 Trio in C for Piano & Strings
Hob 15_28 Trio in E for Piano & Strings
Hob 15_29 Trio in Eb for Piano & Strings
Hob 15_30 Trio in Eb for Piano & Strings
Trio 1790
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/1790v6.jpg)

Hob 20_2 Oratorio The Seven Last Words of Christ on the Cross
Concentus Musicus Wien / Harnoncourt
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/7lastwordsHarnoncourtcover.jpg)

Hob 22_09 Paukenmesse
Concentus Musicus Wien / Harnoncourt
Hob 22_10 Heiligmesse
REBEL Baroque orchestra / Burdick
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHarnoncourtMassescover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/51Yh1Av-J4L.jpg)

Hob 25a_01 Italian Duet for Soprano, Tenor & Keyboard "Guarda qui, che lo vedra"
Hob 25a_02 Italian Duet for Soprano, Tenor & Keyboard "Saper vorrei se m'ami"
Four Nations Ensemble
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnBattleoftheNilecover.jpg)

Nine Part-Songs for Mixed Chorus & Keyboard
Hob 25b_1 Song for 3 Voices "An Den Vetter"
Hob 25b_2 Song for 3 Voices "Daphnens einziger Fehler"
Hob 25b_3 Song for 3 Voices "Betrachtung des Todes"
Hob 25b_4 Song for 3 Voices "An die Frauen"
Hob 25c_1 Song for 4 Voices "Der Augenblick"
Hob 25c_2 Song for 4 Voices "Die Harmonie In Der Ehe"
Hob 25c_3 Song for 4 Voices "Alles Hat Seine Zeit"
Hob 25c_4 Song for 4 Voices "Die Beredsamkeit"
Hob 25c_5 Song for 4 Voices "Der Greis"
Hob 25c_6 Song for 4 Voices "Die Warnung"
Hob 25c_7 Song for 4 Voices "Wider Den Übermut"
Hob 25c_8 Song for 4 Voices "Aus Dem Dankliede Zu Gott"
Hob 25c_9 Song for 4 Voices "Abendlied Zu Gott"
Netherlands Chamber Choir / Glen Wilson (1795 Walter reproduction Fortepiano)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnThe13PartSongscover.jpg)

Hob 30_5a Incidental music to Alfred, Knig der Angelsachsen: Chor der Dänen
Hob 30_5b Incidental music to Alfred, Knig der Angelsachsen: Aria des Schutzgeistes Collegium musicum 90 / Richard Hickox
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Hickoxmasses.jpg)

Well, we start right out with one of those works which is loaded with excellent versions. I have two that I am very comfortable with, and there is a third which has yet to grace my shelves. The first of these is pictured above. Overall the Pinnock is a fine choice. Paul Goodwin plays expertly on a modern (1990) reproduction of the 'organized (keyed) trumpet'. I think that from beginning to end this is the smoothest version I've heard. In this version, on the other hand;
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnConcertosHogwoodcover.jpg)
Friedemann Immer plays an actual Viennese organized trumpet from the very beginning of the 19th century. And while he eventually emerges triumphant, it is really easy to imagine that Weidinger had to really have his hands full when he used a nearly identical instrument to play this work in 1799. I have to admit that by the end I was pulling for Immer to bring it off, and he did! The final version, which I haven't heard but am intrigued by for more than one reason is this one;
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnTrumpetReinholdFriedrichcover.jpg)
This disk also includes concertos by Hummel and Puccini so overall it is likely to be far closer to a recreation of one of Weidinger's original academies. I have heard nothing but good about this disk from some trusted sources, so it could certainly be a great choice for you.

The last 4 piano trios. The Bartolozzi Trios composed for Therese Jansen Bartolozzi. They were likely begun last year, nearly certainly completed this year. These are works that will certainly hook you on the genre. As expected, there are many quality versions available, but I have no problem completing Haydn's Trio oeuvre exactly how I began it, with Trio 1790. For those of you inclined to branch away from them, here are a couple of fine disks to go on with;
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnBartolloziTrioscover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/LArchTrioscover-1.jpg)
If you enjoyed Beghin's sonatas disks and/or his Lieder disk with Andrea Folan, then the Trio Galatea could be for you. He has a couple of excellent string players, and I am personally amused at the precise reversal of typical Classical style which has instead a man at the keyboard and two ladies on the strings. :) The Bylsma/Beths/Levin disk is an absolute classic and has been my favorite for years. This is the sort of disk one should have on hand no matter your personal taste in music, or instruments or style. :)

The oratorio version of The Seven Last Words also has a great representation in the recorded treasury. This version, for example, is a fine choice;
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn7LastWordsaccentuscover.jpg)

But I have elected to stay with one of my earliest favorites, Concentus Musicus / Harnoncourt. I think the power and grandeur, and at the same time, the tragedy and humility that characterize both the unfolding of the event itself and the liturgical expression of it, and Haydn's fabulous characterization of it in the music, are all facets that are well represented here. The masses box featured below also contains this same recording, BTW.

Now we turn to the masses. Everyone has an opinion on how these should sound, and there is a version to suit each of them, it seems. My opinion is based directly on the fact that these were composed for performance in the chapel at Eisenstadt, which is not a great huge cathedral by any means, it is exactly what it says it is; a chapel. This lowers the number of competitors by far, IMO. :) Ultimately, I feel that there are three versions of them which could be suitable for MY needs. Those are the two pictured above (Burdick and Harnoncourt) and then the lovely set by Weil, either the Benelux version on Brilliant or the generally released Sony version with just the last six masses on it;
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnWeilMassesCompletecover-1.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/51bH1nlDoWL-1.jpg)
For the first of these two, I chose Harnoncourt, not least because of the wonderful percussion in the Agnus Dei which they bring off to perfection. Pauken is the German word for timpani, and any version in which the timpani don't stand out here just isn't living up to it. For the second mass (the Saint Bernard's mass, which is actually the first of the Great Six), I very much enjoyed the REBEL Orchestra / Burdick, some lovely singing in there and the playing is first-rate.

All this is not to say that Hickox, or the Gardiner set, are not good either. They are very good indeed, and I find myself in the mood for them from time to time. But as exemplars of my personal ideal, the featured performances are it. :)

Haydn composed the Italian Duets in this year too. Despite some considerable searching, I really haven't found anything of note about them, even in the liner notes. The notes say that they resulted from his work with Badini in London ('Orfeo e Euridice'), although not that Badini wrote the texts. They were his last works of Italian style music. They are a pleasure to listen to and I can recommend the disk they are on for not just these two works, but also for the balance of works that are on there. Definitely an underrated effort that I am pleased to have. :)

This is the only complete recording that I have been able to find of the part-songs. It is fortunate, then, that it is so good. :) Glen Wilson on the fortepiano provides excellent accompaniment to the very capable Netherlands Chamber Choir. Haydn's effort to bring British tradition into the German sphere may or may not have been successful, but either way the music itself is wonderfully well-written, blending the voices in counterpoint, and begging one to sing along. One of these songs, which were all very dear to Haydn, became his living epitaph in his old age. Der Greis (The Old Man) is less sad and tragic here than it will be later when it appears on his calling card. :-\

And finally, a bit of incidental music for a play by J.W. Cowmeadow "Alfred, King of the Saxons". When the play was given in Eisenstadt in September of 1796, Haydn whipped up a Chorus of the Danes and an aria. This recording that Chandos included in the Hickox' "Complete Masses" box is the only one I've found, and it is certainly well done, and interesting, if not stirring. It's incidental music, after all, and save Beethoven's 'Dance of the Dervishes' what incidental music truly stirs? :)

I will add here, tease that I am, that the Op 76 string quartets were also begun in this year, but completed in 1797. So that gives us something to look forward to next year, as though contemplation and enjoyment of the current one is not enough for the average one of us! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 11, 2012, 07:39:56 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 11, 2012, 07:19:46 AM
For the first of these two, I chose Harnoncourt, not least because of the wonderful percussion in the Agnus Dei which they bring off to perfection. Pauken is the German word for timpani, and any version in which the timpani don't stand out here just isn't living up to it.

I've never commented on your choices, Gurn, because I didn't want to appear negative. I'll just say now that this is the first time I've wholeheartedly agreed with you ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 11, 2012, 07:47:08 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 11, 2012, 07:39:56 AM
I've never commented on your choices, Gurn, because I didn't want to appear negative. I'll just say now that this is the first time I've wholeheartedly agreed with you ;D

Sarge

Well, it was a natural there, Sarge, since it was your rec that had me check it out. :D

I'm pleased that you have seen beyond the futility of disputing choices, since I have always been at pains to make it abundantly clear that these are just the things that I like, and I even present alternative choices that I don't particularly care for. It's all about the music for me. One thing you can be sure of though, if I say that such-and-such is the only version available of something, that isn't written lightly, since I've been shopping the hell out of this music for the last 4-5 years! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 11, 2012, 07:53:40 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 11, 2012, 07:47:08 AM
I'm pleased that you have seen beyond the futility of disputing choices, since I have always been at pains to make it abundantly clear that these are just the things that I like....

Which is as it should be; your survey, your choices.

And it's always interesting to see your picks. And really, with the exception of the Festetics and 1790 picks for quartets and trios, I've found little to disagree with.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 11, 2012, 07:59:10 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 11, 2012, 07:53:40 AM
Which is as it should be; your survey, your choices.

And it's always interesting to see your picks. And really, with the exception of the Festetics and 1790 picks for quartets and trios, I've found little to disagree with.

Sarge

Well, that's good to hear. Chamber music, with it's strong element of intimacy as opposed to orchestral music, is certainly going to be the most personal choice, and probably most reflective of an individual listener's personality too. If it gives you anything to look forward to, I won't be using the Festetics for Op 76... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on February 11, 2012, 11:39:12 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 11, 2012, 07:53:40 AM
I've found little to disagree with.

Sarge

That's probably because there isn't much to choose from in many of Haydn's works in the first place!! ;D

Poor Haydn. :'(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 11, 2012, 12:03:29 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 11, 2012, 07:59:10 AMIf it gives you anything to look forward to, I won't be using the Festetics for Op 76... :)

It does! I'm really curious...who will it be? I wonder about your op.77 pick too. I prefer a very stately march rhythm in the first movement of op.77/1. Auryn is ideal to these ears.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 11, 2012, 12:06:13 PM

Quote from: DavidW on February 11, 2012, 11:39:12 AM
That's probably because there isn't much to choose from in many of Haydn's works in the first place!! ;D

Poor Haydn. :'(

True, in many works there isn't much choice. But I was thinking mostly about the symphonies and quartets, where choice isn't too shabby. Nothing like Beethoven...or Mahler, of course, but still pretty decent.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 11, 2012, 02:07:22 PM

Quote from: DavidW on February 11, 2012, 11:39:12 AM
That's probably because there isn't much to choose from in many of Haydn's works in the first place!! ;D

Poor Haydn. :'(

Sad but true. During the course of doing this project, I have learned to be grateful for anything I could find. There are still several works I don't have, and that is because they haven't been recorded at all. I haven't hesitated to move out of my comfort zne and into modern instrument recordings if that's all that was available, or if the PI recordings were lame. But sometimes there hasn't even been that choice! :o Haydn is not only the least known major composer because there aren't books about him, but his other-than-mainstream music is the least known of any major because it hasn't been recorded ad infinitum like that of some other, lesser composers. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 11, 2012, 02:10:40 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 11, 2012, 12:03:29 PM
It does! I'm really curious...who will it be? I wonder about your op.77 pick too. I prefer a very stately march rhythm in the first movement of op.77/1. Auryn is ideal to these ears.

Sarge

Well, I think they are some worthy players. Of course you know it won't be the Auryn's, since there is an abundance of choices on period instruments. :) Still, I could always surprise you with the Carmina's, for example... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 11, 2012, 02:20:14 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 11, 2012, 12:06:13 PM
True, in many works there isn't much choice. But I was thinking mostly about the symphonies and quartets, where choice isn't too shabby. Nothing like Beethoven...or Mahler, of course, but still pretty decent.

Sarge

True enough, for many of the major works anyway. But you know, even if I didn't stick to PI, for some works there just aren't that many choices (talking symphonies now). Works in the Hob 30's, 50's & 60's for example. In the PI world they are almost all solely represented by Hogwood only. Except for the putative Stürm und Dräng ones, like #59 "Fire" for example, or #39 in g minor. And then if you move into the MI realm, if you take away the three complete cycles by Dorati, Fischer & Davies, the same symphonies are even more underserved. Of course, you don't have to take those away (unless you don't like them) but still, that's not an abundance of options for the greatest symphony cycle in quality and quantity ever composed. Just sayin'.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on February 11, 2012, 05:45:13 PM

Quick query: what is "The Battle of the Nile" featured on the Four Nations recording?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 11, 2012, 05:54:58 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 11, 2012, 05:45:13 PM
Quick query: what is "The Battle of the Nile" featured on the Four Nations recording?

It is a song that he set in 1800 for Soprano & Keyboard on an English poem by Cornelia Knight. The whole tale is an interesting and amusing story, actually, but I want to save it for 1800. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 11, 2012, 06:12:04 PM

Part 46

1797

Even though Haydn is growing older than most other active composers ever had a chance to be, the flow of works, although smaller in volume perhaps, continued to pour out with the distilled beauty that only experience, imagination and genius can conjure.

The house in suburban Gumpendorf (it is now the Vienna Haydn Museum) that he had purchased earlier was now ready to move into. It was to be the site of the composition of all the late masterpieces. In his Biographical Notices of Haydn, A.C. Dies tells us this ironic story from his 15th visit (January 1806 - this is how the book is divided up, rather handily as it turns out);

"Haydn mentioned his wife today, in this way. He had received from her in London a letter in which she informed him that she had seen a pretty little one-story house together with a little garden in the suburb of Gumpendorf, No. 73 in the kleine Steingasse, which had pleased her very much since it could be had for a fair price. She wished therefore that he would do her the favor of sending her 2000 florins for which she would buy the house to occupy in the future when she was a widow". I had difficulty suppressing a smile at the naïve candor of the woman's expression. Whether Haydn noticed it, I don't know. He went on "I did not send her the requested money but waited till my return to Vienna. When this time came, I inspected the little house myself. Its still and solitary situation pleased me. I bought it, and during my second (London) journey I had a story added to it. My wife died about 7 or 8 years afterwards (1800, actually – GB), and I have been occupying it ever since as a widower."

I am sure that Haydn got a great deal of amusement from telling that tale. As I do from reading it. :D

In 1797 also, the Tonkünstler-Societät finally made up for its earlier neglect: on January 20, a letter signed by Salieri and Paul Wranitzky granted Haydn free admission to all their concerts for life, and on 11 December he was elected a 'senior assessor' in perpetuity. Another case where foreign approbation finally opened an eye or two in Vienna, I would guess. It is hard to see why they were closed to start with, since the Tonkünstler-Societät in particular had been making money from Haydn's compositions since Il ritorno di Tobia way back in 1775. Surely jealousy didn't play a hand? ::)

In this year also, Count Joseph Franz Saurau, the president of Lower Austria and later Minister of the Interior writes:

"I have often regretted that unlike the English we had no national anthem suited to display before the entire world the devoted attachment of the people to their Landesvater ... This seemed especially necessary at a time when the Revolution in France was raging at its strongest ...

I had a text fashioned by the worthy poet [Lorenz Leopold] Haschka; and to have it set to music, I turned to our immortal compatriot Haydn, who, I felt, was the only man capable of creating something that could be placed at the side of ... 'God Save the King'."

Haydn identified thoroughly with the cultural politics of this project. In late January 1797 the hymn was hastily printed and disseminated, and performed in theaters throughout the Habsburg realm on the emperor's birthday, February 12th. This 'Volkslied', as he called it, combined hymn-like and popular elements so successfully that it became the anthem of both Austria and Germany. Later in 1797 he employed the melody as the basis for the variation movement in the String Quartet Op 76 #3, and in his last years he played it daily at the piano.

In this year also, the Op 76 'Erdödy' String Quartets were completed, while in the Autumn, the first working draft of 'The Creation' was also completed. We'll save that one for next year though, since it will take a year to talk about the pinnacle of his creative career.

The music of 1797;

Hob 03_75 Quartet in G for Strings Op 76 #1
Hob 03_76 Quartet in d for Strings Op 76 #2
Hob 03_77 Quartet in C for Strings Op 76 #3
   Kuijken Quartet
Hob 03_78 Quartet in Bb for Strings Op 76 #4
Hob 03_79 Quartet in D for Strings Op 76 #5
Hob 03_80 Quartet in Eb for Strings Op 76 #6
   Quatuor Mosaiques
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKuijken4tetOp76cover-1.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnMosaiquesvol2cover.jpg)

Hob 09_16 24 Minuets for Orchestra (Piccolo, 2 Flutes, 2 Oboes, 2 Clarinets, 2 Bassoons, 2 Trumpets, Timpani, Percussion & Strings)
   Philharmonia Hungarica / Dorati
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydnminuetcover.jpg)

Hob 17a_deest / 03_77 4 Variations for Keyboard on 'Gott Erhalte'
   Paul Badura-Skoda
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardBaduraSkodacover.jpg)

Hob 23a_deest Motet 'Insanae et Vanae Curae'
   Tafelmusik / Weil
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnWeilMassesCompletecover-1.jpg)

Hob 26a_43 Lied with Keyboard - 'Gott erhalte den Kaiser!'
   Elly Ameling / Jorg Demus
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnAmelingDemusSongscover.jpg)

Opus 76. My very first Haydn chamber music. My very first string quartets by anybody. If it could have been done, I would have worn out those CD's by the Carmina Quartet on Denon. Especially disk 1 with #1, 2 & 3 on it. I still get a thrill when I pop that disk in the player. For those of you that prefer modern instrument performances, IMO those are still the best, despite that I've heard more different Op 76's than any other quartets. But now that I am into period pieces, I still don't feel at all slighted by the two sets that I recommend here. Not wanting to leave anyone out, I decided finally to use the Kuijken Quartet for #'s 1-3. I rarely recommend to you disks that are hard to obtain, what point could be made for that? (Full disclosure; I tried to find these for 3 years, and finally found a set on eBay that the seller wanted $70 for. I negotiated with him via email for 2 days and ended up walking away with them for $40. The other set being sold at the time went for $95, so I felt pretty good, although I think this is way too much for any CD's). However, back to the music, it is really well played, a little looser than the Mosaiques but noticeably tighter than the Festetics (specially for Sarge - :D ). The Mosaiques style is especially well suited to my vision of the last three quartets of Op 76. They have a different attitude than the first three, and the Mosaiques fit them like a glove. I'm really pleased with this combination, it is just right for me.

Minuets for the Hofburg Redoutensaal. Every composer who was anyone at all wrote them for the Carnival. Mozart's are famous, as are Beethoven's and Schubert's. And so Haydn's were. Back before Manfred Huss brought us unique, one-of-a-kind recordings of Haydn rarities, that chair was filled by Antal Dorati. Haydnistos have him to thank for the complete symphonies, the Esterházy operas, and the 24 Minuets for Orchestra, among other things. With Australian Eloquence releasing a flood of 1970's and 1980's recordings by such bands as the Academy of St Martin's etc, which do include other Haydn orchestral dances (but which I haven't got hands on yet), it is possible that we will have even more of these gems soon. However, for these works (the closest dating of which is 1797-98), Dorati is all you need. Very nicely done, minuets you can dance to (although Mrs. Gurn and I haven't had a go at it yet). :)

Insane & Idle Cares (Insanae et Vanae Curae) – When Haydn updated Il ritorno di Tobia for a new production in 1784, he added some new parts, among them a reworking of a sacred chorus. In 1797, for use at Eisenstadt, he extracted that part and had an unknown author set it as a sacred text in Latin. When reset, it became a motet suitable for use in church services. While it lacks the power of the oratorio, it is still a very interesting little piece. Tafelmusik / Bruno Weil have included it in their Complete Masses box. I do not know if it is available elsewhere, I would be disappointed if it wasn't.

For the rest of the year, 'Gott erhalte den Kaiser!' seems to have ruled the day. One thing not noted in the quote above from Count Saurau is that Haydn didn't take any convincing when it came to composing this work. He had been hugely impressed with the concept of a National Anthem ever since seeing/hearing the effect of "God Save the King" when he was in England. So he was actually already looking for an opportunity when Saurau came knocking on his door. Haydn's version is actually a Lied, performed here very capably by our old standby's, Ameling and Demus. I don't have a better version than this, and really don't feel the need for one. In addition, we have here the set of variations that Haydn wrote on the theme. He played this virtually every morning for the rest of his life as exercise and for musical sustenance. Although there are just four written variations, I would wager that over the years he played dozens or even hundreds that were never written down. Still, Badura-Skoda on his Schantz gives us a very nice taste of what this work can have been back in Gumpendorf.

So there is 1797. Within a year Haydn's fame, already widespread, will reach the zenith of European brilliance; Let there be Light!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on February 11, 2012, 06:17:39 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 11, 2012, 05:54:58 PM
It is a song that he set in 1800 for Soprano & Keyboard on an English poem by Cornelia Knight. The whole tale is an interesting and amusing story, actually, but I want to save it for 1800. :)

8)

All in its proper time.
And it's not like 1796-97 are lacking in music!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 11, 2012, 06:21:10 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 11, 2012, 06:17:39 PM
All in its proper time.
And it's not like 1796-97 are lacking in music!

:) That's a fact! Just to pique your interest though, the story involves Haydn, Lord Nelson, Lady Hamilton, her husband and Cornelia Knight. A lot going on there for one little old cantata! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on February 12, 2012, 06:01:57 AM

I've had this book for a long time but only recently have I begun reading it.

[asin]0460861077[/asin]

The author, Hans Keller, is quite opinionated and this can be a source of distraction at times. But one gets the sense that he knows something about string quartets in general and has something distinctive to say about them. It also does not hurt that he considers Haydn the "papa" of the form.

Anyone else read it? I'd like to discuss it once I've had a chance to read more into it.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 12, 2012, 06:24:10 AM

I have been seeing that book for a long while but never picked it up. I don't know how deep it is in theory jargon, but that's really where my choices are made, since I want to be able to understand at least half of the book. :)

I got this one a couple of years ago;
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41dH7F268hL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg)

It has a fair amount of jargon too, but also a pretty good chunk of it is more history than theory, and that suits me OK.

OTOH, Keller is a sort of institution in the business. I have seen him referred to in many articles and essays, usually positively. His being opinionated is, I guess, a well know thing. Apparently he leaves out a couple of quartets that he couldn't figure out, calling them "unworthy of Haydn". :) Still, what he does cover is apparently good solid analysis and information, so you will probably come out the winner for having read it.

8)

On another point altogether, how come you found an ASIA number for that book, when I, as always, was only able to find an ISBN number? I have never been able to post a book using ASIN... :-\

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on February 12, 2012, 07:00:06 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 12, 2012, 06:24:10 AM
I have been seeing that book for a long while but never picked it up. I don't know how deep it is in theory jargon, but that's really where my choices are made, since I want to be able to understand at least half of the book. :)

I got this one a couple of years ago;
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41dH7F268hL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg)

It has a fair amount of jargon too, but also a pretty good chunk of it is more history than theory, and that suits me OK.

OTOH, Keller is a sort of institution in the business. I have seen him referred to in many articles and essays, usually positively. His being opinionated is, I guess, a well know thing. Apparently he leaves out a couple of quartets that he couldn't figure out, calling them "unworthy of Haydn". :) Still, what he does cover is apparently good solid analysis and information, so you will probably come out the winner for having read it.

8)

On another point altogether, how come you found an ASIA number for that book, when I, as always, was only able to find an ISBN number? I have never been able to post a book using ASIN... :-\

Yes, he ignored all of the quartets prior to Op. 20, except for Op. 9, No. 4 and of those after, one (#4, I think) from Op. 33 on the basis that they are not "great" in his opinion, which is writ large on every page. But if one is only half convinced of Keller's own appraisal of his expertise, he has a broad and deep knowledge and understanding of the unique characteristics of the string quartet, how to combine homophony with polyphony (he uses the neologism homophonic polyphony) in a manner that exploits the unique possibilities and timbre and particular combined sonorities possible with these four instruments. And how it is very different from symphonies or other chamber forms. He claims that only a handful of composers understood this and wrote what Keller believes to be true string quartets (as opposed to merely using the string quartet for a composition that could just as easily been played for some other combination of instruments).

He considers 45 of Haydn's quartets about as perfect as a string quartet can be written; his style takes some getting used to, and I strongly suggest not to skip the Preface.

I tried using the ISBN number and, voila, it worked.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 12, 2012, 07:07:47 AM

Quote from: Arnold on February 12, 2012, 07:00:06 AM
Yes, he ignored all of the quartets prior to Op. 20, except for Op. 9, No. 4 and of those after, one (#4, I think) from Op. 33 on the basis that they are not "great" in his opinion, which is writ large on every page. But if one is only half convinced of Keller's own appraisal of his expertise, he has a broad and deep knowledge and understanding of the unique characteristics of the string quartet, how to combine homophony with polyphony (he uses the neologism homophonic polyphony) as in a manner that exploits the unique possibilities and timbres and particular combined sonorities possible with these four instruments. And how it is very different from symphonies or other chamber forms. He claims that only a handful of composers understood this and wrote what Keller believes to be true string quartets (as opposed to merely using the string quartet for a composition that could just as easily been played for some other combination of instruments).

He considers 45 of Haydn's quartets as as perfect as a string quartet can be written; his style takes some getting used to, and I strongly suggest not to skip the Preface.

I tried using the ISBN number and, voila, it worked.

:)

Well, he is opinionated but since I share his opinions I guess I can overlook that. :D I reckon I will put this one on the list then.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 17, 2012, 06:08:26 PM

Part 47

1798

In his 66th year, Haydn was every bit as busy as he had been throughout his life. Last year he had completed drafts of the German version of Die Schöpfung, and early in this year, he and Swieten completed the final drafts and the English version of The Creation, and it was ready for its premiere by March. This work, an oratorio in the English Style of Handel, as opposed to the Italian or German styles in which he had worked previously, is considered now, and has been since its inception, as Haydn's greatest work, and indeed, as the greatest work in the Classical Style. Given the premium placed on vocal music in those times, that is a major laurel indeed!

At first the work was only produced in private, at the Schwarzenberg Palace; the official première took place on the 30th of April. The effect was overwhelming;
Silverstolpe (a Swedish diplomat who was a friend of Haydn) reported:

No one, not even Baron van Swieten, had seen the page of the score wherein the Creation of Light is portrayed ... Haydn had the expression of someone who is thinking of biting his tongue, either to hide his embarrassment or to conceal a secret. And in that moment when Light broke forth for the first time, one would have said that light-rays darted from the composer's blazing eyes. The enchantment of the electrified Viennese was so profound that the performers could not proceed for some minutes.

In addition, a mass for Eisenstadt, the third in the series. This one was later called the Nelson Mass because it is believed to be the one that Nelson asked to have played when he went to Eisenstadt in 1800. Another wonderful and powerful work.

Haydn spent a considerable amount of time in Eisenstadt with the Esterházy family, and was particularly beloved by Princess Marie Hermenegild, wife of Nickolaus II. It was she who commanded that Haydn be addressed in such a manner as was due to a Doctor of Music from Oxford. Even her husband was no longer allowed to call him simply Haydn. This was the sort of gesture which, at this point in his life, meant much more than amassing more money (although he still liked that, too). It is hard to imagine in these days when 'class' is of little importance in much of the world, how far the peasant son of the village wheelwright had come, to now be part of the highest social circles in the country. This may be the greatest accomplishment of his life, and one which flies in the face of the 19th century dismissal of him as a lackey of the aristocracy.

The music of 1798;

Hob 21_02 Die Schöpfung
Capella Augustina / Spering
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSperingSchpfungcover.jpg)

Hob 21_02 Oratorio "The Creation"
Gabrieli Consort & Players / McCreesh
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnCreationMcCreeshcover.jpg)

Hob 22_11 Nelsonmesse
Concentus Musicus Wien / Harnoncourt
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHarnoncourtMassescover.jpg)

Hob 24b_20 Concert aria for Soprano "Solo e pensoso"
Manfred Huss / Haydn Sinfonietta Wien - Miah Persson
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussOperaatEsterhazacover.jpg)

So, how does one choose a version of Die Schöpfung (or even The Creation?) which is undeniably superior to all the others? Personally, I doubt one can, so it comes down to which you like best. In addition to the Spering, I have these three German versions;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHarnoncourtCreationcover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnCreationGardinerGermancover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnCreationJacobscover.jpg)

Each of which is undeniably a winner. The Spering is every bit as good as any of them, which is saying a lot. Of course, this doesn't even count the hundreds of MI versions stretching back into the distant past conducted by guys who actually knew Haydn! (OK, I kid... ::) ). Anyway, I like the soloists on here, none of whom I was familiar with previously, a lot. And the playing and choral work are faultless too. Given the typically high price of many versions that I have seen, the Naxos price point (I paid $15US) on this set pushes it into first place on my list.

Despite the fact that the German version had been prepared in advance and was ready to go, Haydn refused to allow its release for performance until the English version was also ready. It was a gift to the country that had propelled him to stardom, that they should be able to hear his work in their own language. Surprisingly, there are not very many English versions available, one hardly hears of any MI versions (although I'm sure there are some), and even the PI guys, who should realize the historic aspects of the English version have scarcely touched it. So what I have are essentially just these two, but excellent versions they are!

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHogwoodCreationcover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnCreationMcCreeshcover.jpg)

I have had the Hogwood for a long time and always had the highest opinion of it. I recently purchased the McCreesh and now give it the nod for only two reasons; first, it is performed by the sorts of large forces that were very likely used originally, and the result is rousing! This is unfortunately augmented by the unusual fact (for L'Oiseau Lyre recordings) that the Hogwood has always seemed mysteriously muffled to me on the sound quality front. I even bought a second copy of it a few years ago in the even that it was my particular disk that had a problem, but it wasn't. I am supposing that the reason that I even hear this as a problem is because of how hard I tried to strain to hear the words of my first English oratorio! Anyway, you don't need to strain to hear McCreesh! In addition, while many will find this sacrilegious, McCreesh also cleaned up the grammar and some stilted sentence construction in a few places. Knowing that the original English text was translated into German for that version, and then that German text was translated back into English by two non-English speakers (Haydn and von Swieten) for that version, this doesn't bother me nearly as much as I would have expected.

As a work of extraordinary power and beauty, the Nelsonmesse is also much recorded. Before I ever had the Hickox box set, I had the single disk of this mass and it got considerable playing time! But once again I am turning to Harnoncourt here, his take on this work is undeniably great at bringing out all the aspects that one looks for.

Finally, I was wrong when I discussed the Italian duets in 1796; there was yet another Italian song in Haydn's bag. In this Concert Aria for Soprano & Orchestra, Solo e pensoso, Miah Persson really lets us see what a lovely voice she has. This was another work composed for the Weiner Tönkunstlers Societat (Vienna Composers Society) for a benefit concert. It is on a lyric by Petrarch. Huss and the Haydn Sinfonietta are, as usual, ideal accompaniment in this lovely little work. :)

So, the nearly 40 years of preparation have finally come to a peak. The Creation will receive its public debut in the next year. There are yet a few tricks in the bag, but Haydn's career in his lifetime will never be at a higher point than it is right now!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on February 18, 2012, 07:12:28 AM

Great stuff Gurn! Thanks!

There only version I now have of the Creation is the McCreesh, which I've been waiting to hear when the right mood hits. Some years ago I got to sit in for the rehearsals (and a concert) of the Creation at the Aspen Music Festival and it was glorious. How awesome it was to hear the Creation of Light during the researsals! It was like my brain was going to overload with energy!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 18, 2012, 07:17:25 AM

Quote from: Leo K on February 18, 2012, 07:12:28 AM
Great stuff Gurn! Thanks!

There only version I now have of the Creation is the McCreesh, which I've been waiting to hear when the right mood hits. Some years ago I got to sit in for the rehearsals (and a concert) of the Creation at the Aspen Music Festival and it was glorious. How awesome it was to hear the Creation of Light during the researsals! It was like my brain was going to overload with energy!

8)

Thanks, Leo. Man, you need to spin that McCreesh! I really think you will be blown away by the power unleashed there. The right mood will come more often after that. :) I have never seen a 'live' performance of this work, but it is second on my bucket list (after THE 9th). :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on February 18, 2012, 07:29:12 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 18, 2012, 07:17:25 AM
Thanks, Leo. Man, you need to spin that McCreesh! I really think you will be blown away by the power unleashed there. The right mood will come more often after that. :) I have never seen a 'live' performance of this work, but it is second on my bucket list (after THE 9th). :)

8)

The 9th (Beethoven AND Mahler ;) ) is also on my bucket list! What a treat that would be!

I will get to the McCreesh soon then! Don't really know why I was waiting so long to hear it. Funny how that happens sometimes!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 18, 2012, 07:34:33 AM

Quote from: Leo K on February 18, 2012, 07:29:12 AM
The 9th (Beethoven AND Mahler ;) ) is also on my bucket list! What a treat that would be!

I will get to the McCreesh soon then! Don't really know why I was waiting so long to hear it. Funny how that happens sometimes!

Leo, you are such a liberal! ::) Of course, that's why I said THE 9th... :D

Yes, I agree, it is odd how those things happen sometimes. With me and Haydn, sometimes this project interferes in that now and again I get a disk from an era already covered and it is 6 months before I get a chance to go back in time. Or conversely, I got McCreesh way beck when I was doing the 1750's... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 18, 2012, 07:51:41 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 18, 2012, 07:17:25 AM
Thanks, Leo. Man, you need to spin that McCreesh! I really think you will be blown away by the power unleashed there. The right mood will come more often after that. :) I have never seen a 'live' performance of this work, but it is second on my bucket list (after THE 9th). :)

Gurn - thanks for the ongoing and outstanding timeline on Papa Haydn, and glad that you liked the McCreesh - it is DAMN good (and in English - ;) :D) - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 18, 2012, 07:55:16 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 18, 2012, 07:51:41 AM
Gurn - thanks for the ongoing and outstanding timeline on Papa Haydn, and glad that you liked the McCreesh - it is DAMN good (and in English - ;) :D) - Dave :)

Thanks, Dave. IIRC, you were the one who pointed me at that. You were right, then and now! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 18, 2012, 05:52:33 PM

Part 48

1799

Word of the brilliance of The Creation leaked out to the public, probably from a variety of sources. So when the first public performance took place on March 19 at the Burgtheater, with a complement of about 180 performers (not the 400 that has been reported), it 'made history' immediately and on a pan-European scale in a way equaled by no other composition. This was due to a fortunate combination of sublime subject, cultural-historical 'moment' on the cusp between Enlightenment and Romanticism, its appeal to both high-minded and ordinary listeners and to Haydn's unrivalled stature and the originality and grandeur of his music.

His pride in and personal identification with the work, in addition to his usual concern for financial advantage, induced him to publish it himself, selling it 'by subscription' all over Europe, with the assistance of colleagues such as Dr Burney; his advertisement in the London press (June 1799) reads:

The success which my Oratorio The Creation has been fortunate enough to enjoy ... [has] induced me to arrange for its dissemination myself. Thus the work will appear ... neatly and correctly engraved and printed on good paper, with German and English texts; and in full score, so that [at least] one work of my composition will be available to the public in its entirety, and the connoisseur will be in a position to see it as a whole and to judge it.

The edition appeared at the end of February 1800 with a list of more than 400 subscribers!

By spring 1799 Haydn and Swieten were planning a second oratorio, The Seasons, with a libretto based on James Thomson's pastoral epic of 1726–8; Haydn composed the music apparently from autumn 1799 to the end of 1800.

However, all was not utter perfection at that time either. Age was taking its inevitable toll. Haydn began to complain of physical and mental weakness. He wrote to (Breitkopf &) Härtel in June of 1799:

Every day the world compliments me on the fire of my recent works, but no one will believe the strain and effort it costs me to produce them. Some days my enfeebled memory and the unstrung state of my nerves crush me to the earth to such an extent that I fall prey to the worst sort of depression, and am quite incapable of finding even a single idea for many days thereafter; until at last Providence revives me, and I can again sit down at the pianoforte and begin to scratch away.

And indeed, the end was in sight for the compositional aspect of his career. After The Seasons, there would only be a very few more works. However, they were brilliant, and probably no one would have guessed that their creator was nearly totally enfeebled by age.

In this year he also met Georg August Griesinger, who would be nearby until the end of Haydn's life, to handle business and correspondence and write his 'Biographical Notice'. Much of what we know about Haydn post-1800 is thanks to Griesinger. In what must be an oddity of the times, it is actually believed that his writings are mainly reliable for their accuracy. This is virtually unheard of, as anyone familiar with Anton Schindler's role in Beethoven's life and legacy can attest. ::)

The music of 1799;

Hob 03_81 Quartet in G for Strings Op 77 #1
Quatuors Mosaiques
Hob 03_82 Quartet in F for Strings Op 77 #2
L' Archibudelli
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnMosaiquesvol2cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/LArch4tetscover-1.jpg)

Hob 22_12 Theresienmesse
Rebel Baroque Orchestra \ Glover Trinity Choir
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/51Yh1Av-J4L.jpg)

Hob 23c_2 Te Deum in C
Collegium musicum 90 / Richard Hickox
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Hickoxmasses.jpg)

It seems like a year of choices doesn't pass by without at least one work or opus causing some angst for Gurn when it comes to choosing the version that is most recommendable. And so it is again, this year with Op 77, the last completed string quartets, indeed, the final complete instrumental works for our delectation. Every talented quartet in history has had a go at these. In the PI universe, there are probably a half dozen or so, and in the wide world of MI, there are many dozens indeed, with more being turned out every year. Here are what I had to choose from, and a tough choice it was! Along with the two final selections;
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnFesteticsOp76cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSmithson4tetOp77103cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSchuppcover2.jpg)(#1 only).

The only major PI version not represented was the Salomon Quartet, which I was unable to find in a timely way. Ultimately, I chose the Mosaiques for #1 on the basis of their excellent sound, especially in the finale which was standout marvelous. Their tempo in the opening movement was unusually swift for them, and it helped the phrasing stay together better than is sometimes the case. In #2, there was no denying L'Archibudelli (who were also my original choice in #1). The music just flows so freely from their instruments that it seems entirely effortless, which is purely an illusion since it is far from simple music. I am very happy with these two choices, I think.... :-\ :D

The 'Theresienmesse' was first preformed at the traditional family gathering for the Princess's nameday, September 8, 1799 (the Feast of St. Mary). Since the Emperor's wife, Empress Maria Theresa, was also a great admirer of Haydn, she early times got a copy for her library, and soon the word got about that the mass was dedicated to her, thus the name it has had since nearly the beginning. Of course, it wouldn't have been prudent for Haydn to deny that sort of thing... In any case, this is the 4th of the Six Great Masses, and its particular distinguishing feature comes from the way that Haydn has interwoven the solo and choral lines so that the music goes between them equally. Also, this orchestra has clarinets which provide a rather different sonority than is usual. I think that Jane Glover has done an outstanding job here, stepping in for Owen Burdick so near the end of this project. This is an especially nice rendition.

The Te Deum in C major, the second one that Haydn wrote, but the first since 1763, was commissioned by Empress Maria Theresa, and not premiered until September 14, 1800, once again at the nameday celebration of Princess Maria Hermenegild. It is simply brilliant, perhaps the culmination of Haydn's experience in choral work, and also the height of the earlier mentioned "Viennese C major" tradition. The musicians consist of the chorus, 1 Flute, 2 Oboes, 2 Bassoons, 2 Horns, 3 Trumpets!, Timpani & Strings. Splendid piece of work, I must say. I have two versions of this, one by CMW / Harnoncourt and the other by Hickox and Collegium Musicum 90. Hickox and company do it up wonderfully! I think you will be pleased with this rendition, it really rocks! :)

By next time we will have come to the dawn of the new century. We've come a long way with Haydn, and still have but a short one left to go. Music worth hearing though...

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 18, 2012, 06:06:58 PM

That Op. 77 is what hooked me on Haydn, Gurn. How many more installments do we have ahead?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 18, 2012, 06:11:56 PM

Quote from: Bogey on February 18, 2012, 06:06:58 PM
That Op. 77 is what hooked me on Haydn, Gurn. How many more installments do we have ahead?

I can understand that, Bill. It was Op 76 for me. :)

Well, 1800-02 have just small bits (2 masses and part of a quartet along with a couple of songs) and I might well do those all at once. Then there needs to be a closing bit too, some discussion of the Scottish songs that kept him into music up into 1804, along with events til his death in 1809. So I figure that even condensing some years together, it will be 3 more essays.

After that, there are some specifics I want to go on with about genres and such. Hope you will join in there too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 18, 2012, 06:17:49 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 18, 2012, 06:11:56 PM
I can understand that, Bill. It was Op 76 for me. :)

Well, 1800-02 have just small bits (2 masses and part of a quartet along with a couple of songs) and I might well do those all at once. Then there needs to be a closing bit too, some discussion of the Scottish songs that kept him into music up into 1804, along with events til his death in 1809. So I figure that even condensing some years together, it will be 3 more essays.

After that, there are some specifics I want to go on with about genres and such. Hope you will join in there too. :)

8)

I want to go back and re-read all the installments and also play the pieces that were highlighted with what I have on the shelf. Just work through these gems you created at a slow pace. I am hoping that you might discuss his revival in a piece (did he have one?) and any fragment works worth mentioning that they may have found in recent time...if he had any.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 18, 2012, 06:23:00 PM

Quote from: Bogey on February 18, 2012, 06:17:49 PM
I want to go back and re-read all the installments and also play the pieces that were highlighted with what I have on the shelf. Just work through these gems you created at a slow pace. I am hoping that you might discuss his revival in a piece (did he have one?) and any fragment works worth mentioning that they may have found in recent time...if he had any.

OK, those would be good topics. Lots to discuss on the revivals thing, for sure.

You know, if you click the globe icon in my sidebar you go to a table of contents.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 18, 2012, 06:26:09 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 18, 2012, 06:23:00 PM
OK, those would be good topics. Lots to discuss on the revivals thing, for sure.

You know, if you click the globe icon in my sidebar you go to a table of contents.... :)

8)

I was one of the folks that pressured you into making it. :) I have been all over it like fleas on a prairie dog. ;D

The revival thing (any composer) always fascinates me....that is, how did their music get left behind in the first place.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 18, 2012, 06:29:55 PM

Quote from: Bogey on February 18, 2012, 06:26:09 PM
I was one of the folks that pressured you into making it. :) I have been all over it like fleas on a prairie dog. ;D

The revival thing (any composer) always fascinates me....that is, how did their music get left behind in the first place.

:D Yep, your memory is better than mine, you young rascal. :)

Well, not to get started on it now, but there have been 3 separate, distinct revivals in the 20th century alone! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 25, 2012, 08:41:59 AM

Part 49

1800 – 1803

I've decided to cover Haydn's last productive years in one swoop, since they are so interconnected.

On March 20, 1800, Haydn's wife died. It was an event which, if it had happened earlier in life, would have been cause for some celebration. As it was, he didn't seem unduly upset, but also made no attempt to replace her. Even when Polzelli wrote from Italy, the best he could offer was that if he married anyone other than her, he would pay her a nice sum of money, 300 florins. Not much danger of that happening at this late date though, and he did leave her half that amount in his will.

Haydn's fame by this time was such that even the most famous people of the day made an effort to stop in and visit. During the 1800 sojourn in Eisenstadt, the famous Admiral Nelson, fresh from his victory over the Napoleonic fleet at Alexandria, was traveling around Europe with his paramour Lady Emma Hamilton, her husband (!), and a crew of admirers, including the wife of one of Nelson's officers, Cornelia Knight. The tour went through Eisenstadt, where it was arranged that Haydn would be available. Among other things, the great Mass in d minor 'Missa in angustiis' was played by special request of Nelson, and since that time has been called the Nelson Mass. It seems that Emma was fond of music, and so Haydn and a group of musicians were playing for a party (honest to god!!). Cornelia Knight pulled out a set of verses she had written praising Nelson's victory, and Haydn composed it into a cantata. Emma, who fancied herself a singer, took every opportunity to sing it for whatever gathering they were at, including to Nelson himself as she sat beside her husband, with Haydn at the piano! Seems a bit uncomfortable to me, but there you go!

Haydn suffered a serious illness in winter 1800–01, as The Seasons neared completion, during which he identified with his own oratorio. His pupil Sigismund Ritter von Neukomm reported:

Speaking of the penultimate aria, 'Behold, O weak and foolish man, Behold the picture of thy life' ... he said: 'This aria refers to me!' And in this wonderful masterpiece he really did speak entirely from his inmost soul, so much so that he became seriously ill while composing it, and ... the Lord ... allowed him to see 'his life's image and his open grave'.

From 1800 on he received a steady stream of distinguished visitors, honors and medals of which a gold medal from and honorary citizenship of the City of Vienna, in recognition of his charitable performances, meant the most to him. He also continued to talk shop with younger musicians; in addition to Pleyel and Beethoven, those who benefited included Anton Wranitzky, Neukomm, Reicha, Eybler, Weigl, Seyfried, Hummel, Diabelli, Kalkbrenner and Weber.

Unlike his self-published work, The Creation, Haydn simply sold the rights to publication of The Seasons to Breitkopf & Härtel. Even his taste for self-promotion was fading with age!

Haydn's last public musical function was on December 26, 1803, when he conducted the Seven Last Words in a charity benefit concert.

But the completed part of Haydn's final work was done in 1803. It is fitting in so many ways that it was a string quartet. Even more, that the final completed movement he ever composed was a minuet for this work. He had single-handedly done more for the minuet than any other composer, to the point of turning it into the Scherzo idea that was soon to be perfected by his greatest pupil, Beethoven. This was to be the 3rd quartet of Op 77. According to Griesinger, he would take the quartet down and have a go at it, which habit continued until 1806 when he finally gave up. Griesinger sent the 2 movements to Breitkopf along with a copy of Haydn's calling card. On it was the poem 'Der Greis' ('The Old Man') by Gleim, which Haydn had set in 1796 (Hob 25c_5) for 4 voices. When the quartet Op 103 was published in 1806, the little 4 part setting was appended to the end of it ("in lieu of a small rondo") by way of explanation as to why it was just 2 movements.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnsCallingCardsmall.jpg)

Courtesy H.C. Robbins-Landon

The music of 1800-1803;

1800
Hob 26a_44 Lied with Keyboard 'Als einst mit Weibes Schönheit'
Hob 26a_45 Song with Keyboard 'Un tetto umil' (Eine kleines Haus)
Hob 26a_46 Song with Keyboard 'Pensi a me si fido amante'
Elly Ameling / Jorg Demus
Hob 26b_04 Song (Cantata) for Voice & Keyboard "The Battle of the Nile"
Four Nations Ensemble
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnAmelingDemusSongscover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnBattleoftheNilecover.jpg)

1801
Hob 21_03 Oratorio "The Seasons"
English Baroque Soloists / Gardiner Monteverdi Choir
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnGardinerTheSeasonscover.jpg)

Hob 22_13 Schöpfungsmesse
English Baroque Soloists / Gardiner Monteverdi Choir
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnGardinerSchopHarmonmassescover.jpg)

1802
Hob 22_14 Harmoniemesse
Concentus musicus Wien / Harnoncourt
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHarnoncourtMassescover.jpg)

1803
Hob 03_83 Quartet in d for Strings Op 103 (incomplete)
Hob 03_deest / 25c_ 5 Song arranged for String Quartet 'Der Greis'
L' Archibudelli
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/LArch4tetscover-1.jpg)

1800
....being spent nearly completely in the composition of The Seasons, didn't allow for a lot else. A few songs, nicely portrayed here by Elly & Jörg, and the amusingly fawning cantata whose origin is described above pretty well covered it. Once again an opportunity arises to urge the Haydnistos in the group to grab off that Four Nations Ensemble disk while it is available. It is the only recording I have found of the cantata, and also the earlier recommended Italian Duets. In addition, it is set up like a Haydn evening, with 2 keyboard trios (Hob 18 & 19) and a nice version of the Piccolo Divertimento Variations for Fortepiano.

1801
The composition of The Seasons was finally completed in early 1801. I have two versions on period instruments to choose from, and despite, or because of, the different approach, the choice was hard to make. I finally went with Gardiner, which is a brilliant and moderately grandiose vision of this music. The playing and singing, especially the chorus, is just great here. The other option I have is this one;
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSeasonsKuijkencover.jpg)

Here, Kuijken seems to take a more pastoral view all'round. And who is to say that this is not congruent with Haydn's original vision? I certainly can't. All in all, it is more delicate and... chamberesque, as it were. So decide what appeals to you more, or get them both and then make your choice (or not) and have a fallback alternative.

Our other work this year harks back to the previous oratorio. It is the so-called Schöpfungsmesse or Creation Mass. If you, like me, have wondered at the name, the back story is typically amusing and so very Haydnish. It is based on one of Haydn's most incautious jokes. In the Gloria, listeners and performers who were steeped in the traditions of Austrian church music (that would be everyone there, eh?) fully expected the tempo to change from fast to slow around the point of 'Gratias agimus tibi' or 'Qui tollis peccata mundi'. Instead of that, our boy has the orchestra continue right on in Tempo I and begin quoting the Creation music associated with the text 'The dew-dropping morn, Oh how she quickens all', even with the same horns and instrumentation. In the mass, the bass then enters and repeats the Creation tune, only singing the words of the 'Qui tollis peccata mundi...'. Suddenly the choir catches on and abruptly switches tempo in midstream from Allegro to Adagio and sings the 'miserere nobis' plea for mercy. Since most of us today weren't brought up in this sort of tradition, we may not recognize the depth and outrageous humor of this multi-layered joke, but everyone there certainly did. The Empress actually asked Haydn to recompose it for her, removing the Creation quotation altogether, but leaving the tempo changes etc. My choice for this one, the Gardiner, reflects the fact that the Esterházy Orchestra had finally been rebuilt to the point where there were sufficient wind instruments available to really make a noise. I think Gardiner makes the most of this fact, I really like their work here.

1802

The Harmoniemesse, Haydn's last completed work in any genre. A mass, just like his first completed work in any genre. The symmetry, as so often in Haydn's life, is wonderful. This mass got its name actually in the late 19th century and it is reflective of the fact that it contains a full wind section, not only extraordinary at the time, but also for Haydn. It is his only mass containing one, and in fact it has the largest complement of instruments of any of Haydn's masses. The sonority is overwhelming at times. Unusually for him, he indicated the beginning of his labors, April 1802 in Vienna (Gumpendorf). He moved to Eisenstadt in August, of course, and had it all finished by September 8 for its premiere on the Princess' name day. He directed it in the chapel. So even at that late date, he was able to conduct his final composition. I have chosen Harnoncourt for this performance. The Concentus musicus really do a super job on it, and the sonorities, especially of the winds, stand out nicely. I think you would like this, if not above all others, then at least very well indeed. :)

1803

OK, it's true what you have suspected of me all along, I have trouble writing the sad parts. The modern phrase 'burned out' was not in use in 1803, but perhaps it should have been. I can't think of another phrase that is more suitably descriptive of Haydn by then. He told his friends and care givers that he still had a head full of great ideas, but he was simply unable to set them down on paper any more. For someone who had driven himself so hard throughout his life, it must have been an inner tragedy to be well able to realize that he was done. However, he did do us the service of getting the minuet of the final d minor quartet completed, so the two inner movements of what should have been Op 77#3 were done. But that was it. When Griesinger sent them off to Breitkopf & Härtel in 1806, there wasn't a note added to them. As he said at the time "we have had hopes for a small rondo to finish it up with, but if there isn't one by now, there will never be one'. I have chosen L'Archibudelli to play this Schwanengesang because they not only do a fabulous job with it, but they are the only ones to add in the appropriate 2 minutes of 'Der Greis' which B & H actually included as part of the score after the second (third really) movement. IMO, they are the only ones to play it fully and properly. :`(

This is the 49th chapter of these essays. There will be one more. I want to look at the folk song settings, and how Haydn spent the remainder of his life after the creative part was past. For now, enjoy the late music. It is a simple fact that Haydn never deteriorated in his creative power right up to the end. The brilliance of his late music, the incorporation of the latest ideas of structure and harmony into his personal idiom, make one wonder what would have come out if he had been granted the healthy longevity of Elliot Carter, for example. Would 19th century music have taken a different turn? Can't know, of course, but I suspect it might have done. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 25, 2012, 01:44:41 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 18, 2012, 07:17:25 AM
Thanks, Leo. Man, you need to spin that McCreesh! I really think you will be blown away by the power unleashed there. The right mood will come more often after that. :) I have never seen a 'live' performance of this work, but it is second on my bucket list (after THE 9th). :)

8)

Then, Gurn, mayhap you will come to Boston to hear the Handel & Haydn Society do it up…

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 25, 2012, 01:50:03 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 25, 2012, 01:44:41 PM
Then, Gurn, mayhap you will come to Boston to hear the Handel & Haydn Society do it up...

That would be most interesting, Karl. I know the Boston Haydn Society to be a very talented bunch, plus they perform in an historically accurate sort of way, so I'm told. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 25, 2012, 02:53:03 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 18, 2012, 07:51:41 AM
Gurn - thanks for the ongoing and outstanding timeline on Papa Haydn, and glad that you liked the McCreesh - it is DAMN good (and in English - ;) :D) - Dave :)

Gosh, youze guys — this Haus is a genuine financial peril. I've never given The Creation a proper shake yet, and this recording has all the earmarks of one I should likely enjoy.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 25, 2012, 02:56:03 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 25, 2012, 02:53:03 PM
Gosh, youze guys — this Haus is a genuine financial peril. I've never given The Creation a proper shake yet, and this recording has all the earmarks of one I should likely enjoy.

Well, it is damned good, Karl... :-\ What does "&mdash" mean? ???

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 25, 2012, 03:04:47 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 25, 2012, 08:41:59 AM

… 1803

OK, it’s true what you have suspected of me all along, I have trouble writing the sad parts.

Well, and it is sad, even though it's the end of a long and musically well-lived life. Your wonderful series here of engaging essays, O Gurn, has really brought "Papa" to life for me, and spurred me to investigate much more of his music than ever I imagined I should (and it's all been time excellently spent). My hat's off to you!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 25, 2012, 03:07:16 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 25, 2012, 02:56:03 PM
Well, it is damned good, Karl... :- What does "&mdash" mean? ???

8)

It means that Tapatalk and the Forum don't quite communicate togedder.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 25, 2012, 03:13:18 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 25, 2012, 03:04:47 PM
Well, and it is sad, even though it's the end of a long and musically well-lived life. Your wonderful series here of engaging essays, O Gurn, has really brought "Papa" to life for me, and spurred me to investigate much more of his music than ever I imagined I should (and it's all been time excellently spent). My hat's off to you!

Well, thank you so much, Karl. It is particularly gratifying to be able to contribute to the righting of a ship that went off the rails... :D Don't'cha just love mixed metaphors? :D

But seriously, Haydn's music speaks for itself, if only people can get past the dogma of the ages and give it a listen. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 25, 2012, 03:13:59 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 25, 2012, 03:07:16 PM
It means that Tapatalk and the Forum don't quite communicate togedder.

Ah, gotcha. Well, still better than actually typing... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 25, 2012, 04:41:31 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 25, 2012, 03:04:47 PM
Well, and it is sad, even though it's the end of a long and musically well-lived life. Your wonderful series here of engaging essays, O Gurn, has really brought "Papa" to life for me, and spurred me to investigate much more of his music than ever I imagined I should (and it's all been time excellently spent). My hat's off to you!

....and added a feature to this forum of the likes I have not seen before, but hope someone tries to recreate with other composers. Gurn is now our Ken Burns. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 25, 2012, 04:49:01 PM

Quote from: Bogey on February 25, 2012, 04:41:31 PM
....and added a feature to this forum of the likes I have not seen before, but hope someone tries to recreate with other composers. Gurn is now our Ken Burns. :)

Thanks, Bill. I have also been hoping that someone would undertake a project like this. Choosing a subject can be difficult, but Haydn was a natural choice for me, since it is not only MY opinion that he is the greatest virtually unknown composer. Plus I already loved the music, which really helps! :) I really would encourage anyone who has an abiding interest in a composer, plus the resources to be able to satisfy their curiosity, to have at it. We would love to share your interest, as I thank all those who shared mine. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on February 25, 2012, 06:01:15 PM

I too wish to congrtulate Gurn on his contribution - the essays are a rich trove of information about Haydn that will be something I return to again and again. Also, the chronological lists are a really nice thing to have handy.

Now, in your honor I am playing this interesting disc:

[asin]B003JIQEF0[/asin]

These are transcriptions of baryton trios for basset horns.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 25, 2012, 06:06:09 PM

Quote from: Arnold on February 25, 2012, 06:01:15 PM
I too wish to congrtulate Gurn on his contribution - the essays are a rich trove of information about Haydn that will be something I return to again and again. Also, the chronological lists are a really nice thing to have handy.

Now, in your honor I am playing this interesting disc:

[asin]B003JIQEF0[/asin]

These are transcriptions of baryton trios for basset horns.

:)

Thank you kindly, Arnold. Your finding of the chronological lists as handy is precisely what started me on this project 5 years ago. I thought it would be so easy to do. Well, I was wrong! :) If interested parties can make good use of them, with the caveats made early on, then they will have served the purpose.

That's a great disk, very entertaining. Enjoy!

8)

----------------
Now playing:

Schuppanzigh Quartet - Hob 03_24 Quartet in A for Strings Op 9 #6 1st mvmt - Presto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on February 25, 2012, 06:34:39 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 25, 2012, 06:06:09 PM
That's a great disk, very entertaining. Enjoy!

8)

Yes, it is interesting to hear another setting for those trios - but the cherry on top of the sundae is the last track featuring the glass harmonica!

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 26, 2012, 06:31:31 PM

Part 50

To 1809

Despite the obvious physical ailments that age still brings, and brought even more 200 years ago, Haydn had a relatively pleasant and gratifying old age. As we discussed earlier, he had plenty of visits from friends, admirers and fellow composers. Also the Princess Marie Hermenegild, who thought the world of him, frequently stopped in to make sure he was doing well. Among other things of a more germane nature, she pressured her husband to insure that all of Haydn's medical bills were paid by the Esterházy's, something which took a lot of weight off Haydn's mind.

Two major blows came in rapid succession. In 1805, his youngest brother Johann, who had been a tenor in the Esterháza chorus since 1764, passed away in Eisenstadt. Then in 1806, his other younger brother and dear friend, J. Michael Haydn, died in Salzburg, where he had decided to stay just four years previously when he was offered Joseph's old job in Eisenstadt. Not that this left him without relatives, it seems they were a prolific bunch! But since the other two were musicians, he always was closer to them and identified more with them. He took it hard.

In his memoirs (since published, but called for many years 'The Unpublished Autobiography of Antonin Reicha') Reicha, a close friend of Haydn, speaks of his arrival in Vienna in late 1805 with a group of friends. Among others, the musicians included Luigi Cherubini and Pierre Baillot (a pre-eminent violinist of the day). The French, under Napoleon, had recently drubbed the Austrians and taken the country. Despite that, Haydn showed great hospitality to the guests, even including some French generals, and had them all sign his visitors book. He never backed down though, frequently playing his variations on the Kaiserhymne in their presence. Haydn had a very high opinion of Cherubini in particular (as did Beethoven after him). In Dies' 'Biographical Notices' he mentions some specifics of his music that are well-deserving of praise. In March of 1806, Cherubini asked for a score of one of Haydn's symphonies to have as a keepsake. In response, Haydn gave him 'a symphony which I understand is quite popular in Paris'. It is the autograph of Hob 103! Haydn then told him, 'let me call myself your musical father, and you my son'. Countless composers of that time called Haydn their musical father, among them Carl Maria von Weber who called him 'The Great Father Haydn'. But despite long told tales to the contrary, there was only one who ever called him 'Papa Haydn', and that was Mozart.

His last public appearance of any kind was on 27 March 1808, at a gala performance of The Creation in honor of his 76th birthday, in the Great Hall (Festsaal) of the University. The spirit of occasion is captured nicely in this painting by Balthasar Wigand. Haydn is seated in the center foreground.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn1808Creationperformancepaintingbalthasar_wigand.jpg)

Haydn was presented a(nother!) gold medal, this one by the Ambassador of France on behalf of the Concert des Amateurs in Paris in tribute for The Creation. He sat surrounded by nobility, especially the Princess Esterházy. This painting, which was commissioned by her for the cover of a box that she presented to Haydn, captures the exact moment when Haydn, having complained of a bit of a draught in the hall, was being presented by her with her shawl to cover up with. Immediately after, several of the other ladies did the same until he was bundled up in finery! For him, the entire affair was so charged with emotion that it was feared that he would succumb to it, so at the end of Part I he was carried home. A week later Dies came to visit and Haydn was still excited about the beauty of the entire tribute concert. He wanted Dies to make sure that he wrote that Haydn had only left for his own health, and that he was overwhelmed by the quality of the music making.

In early 1809, the Austrians, apparently a warlike tribe at best, once again invaded Bavaria (by then a province of Napoleonic France) and caused Napoleon to come back from Spain and spank them yet again. Even the French held Haydn in such high regard that Napoleon had an honor guard posted around his house so that the war wouldn't find him by mistake. On May 26, a French Hussar (army officer) came to visit. He spoke with Haydn at length, praising him and his music and telling Haydn of the great emotion he felt just being there. Haydn asked him to go into the parlor and sing at the clavier, which he did with great perfection, an aria from The Creation (In Native Worth and Honor Clad). Haydn was deeply moved, no less the officer. They embraced and he left after signing the guest book. It was the last music Haydn heard, other than, perhaps, the constant stream of beautiful music that went on in his head. He died on May 31, 1809.

Other music from 1800-1809;

1800

30 Scottish Folksongs for George Thomson
Hob 31a_005bis Scottish Folksong "Saw ye my father"
Hob 31a_011bis Scottish Folksong "Barbara Allan"
Hob 31a_031bis Scottish Folksong "The lea-rig"
Hob 31a_035bis Scottish Folksong "Maggie Lauder"

..............................

Hob 31a_179 Scottish Folksong "Galashiels"
Hob 31a_181 Scottish Folksong "Thro the wood, laddie"
Hob 31a_183 Scottish Folksong "Pinkie House"
Hob 31a_185 Scottish Folksong "Scornfu' Nansy"
Haydn Trio Eisenstadt / L. Anderson / J. MacDougall

1801

75 Scottish Folksongs for George Thomson
Hob 31a_004bis Scottish Folksong Willie was a wanton wag
Hob 31a_007bis Scottish Folksong Fy gar rub her o'er wi' strae
Hob 31a_008bis Scottish Folksong 'Green grow the rashes'
Hob 31a_013bis Scottish Folksong Gramachree

................................

Hob 31a_249 Scottish Folksong Oonagh
Hob 31a_252 Scottish Folksong Jenny's bawbee
Hob 31a_263 Scottish Folksong Jingling Johnie
Hob 31a_265 Scottish Folksong Polwarth on the green
Haydn Trio Eisenstadt / L. Anderson / J. MacDougall

1802

49 Scottish Folksongs for William Whyte
Hob 31a_037bis Scottish Folksong My Nanie, O
Hob 31a_176 Scottish Folksong The blue bells of Scotland
Hob 31a_187bis Scottish Folksong The birks of Invernay
Hob 31a_189bis Scottish Folksong My apron deary

.................................

Hob 31a_218 Scottish Song 'Auld Lang Syne'
Hob 31a_219 Scottish Song 'She rose and loot me in'
Hob 31a_220 Scottish Song 'Katharine Ogie'
Hob 31a_257 Scottish Song 'Wandering Willie'
Hob 31a_261 Scottish Song 'Sweet Annie frae the sea-beach came'
Hob 31a_262 Scottish Song 'Farewell, thou fair day'
Haydn Trio Eisenstadt / L. Anderson / J. MacDougall

1803

26 Welsh Folksongs for George Thomson
Hob 31b_01 Welsh Song 'The rising of the lark'
Hob 31b_02 Welsh Song 'The march of the men of Harlech'
Hob 31b_44 Welsh Song 'The sweet melody of North Wales'
Hob 31b_45 Welsh Song 'Lady Owen's favourite'
Hob 31b_46 Welsh Song 'Winifreda'

...................................

30 Scottish Folksongs for William Whyte
Hob 31a_015ter Scottish Folksong Galla Water
Hob 31a_022bis Scottish Folksong The white cockade
Hob 31a_037ter Scottish Folksong My Nanie, O
Hob 31a_052bis Scottish Folksong Tibbie Fowler
Haydn Trio Eisenstadt / L. Anderson / J. MacDougall

1804
24 Scottish Folksongs for George Thomson
Hob 31a_255 Scottish Song 'The Palmer. O open the door'
Hob 31a_258 Scottish Song 'My jo Janet'
Hob 31a_259 Scottish Song 'The day returns'
Hob 31a_260 Scottish Song 'The siller crown'

........................................

36 Welsh Folksongs for George Thomson
Hob 31b_04 Welsh Song 'David of the White Rock'
Hob 31b_13 Welsh Song 'Farewell Frances'
Hob 31b_16 Welsh Song 'Away to the oaken grove'
Hob 31b_17 Welsh Song 'Over the stone'
Haydn Trio Eisenstadt / L. Anderson / J. MacDougall
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnScottishFolksongscover.jpg)

In the section above, you recall mention of the Unpublished Autobiography of Antonin Reicha. One of the things to come out of that book was an interesting discussion between Haydn and Reicha concerning why Haydn was setting all of these folksongs for British publishers. Haydn stressed to Reicha the absolute imperative of working with music every day. Even if it was lowly folk music, it needed done properly, and he needed the practice and challenge to his imagination that this provided. Plus money, of course. He was well paid for these works, as were Beethoven, Hummel, Gyrowetz and the several others who were doing it.

There are a certain number of these (70 or so) that are believed to have been done by Neukomm under Haydn's supervision. Since Neukomm was there to study composition, it is no surprise that Haydn had him do some of these as exercises. Even knowing which ones they are, it is difficult to hear any particular failing in them that makes them lesser works. The thing with folk music; you like it or you don't. If you don't, then no amount of craft is going to suit your fancy. If you do, then chances are that rusticity is a positive attraction rather than polish. These have both. It is unfortunate that he wasn't provided with more to go by, just a lyric and an incipit. I think he made the best of it though, as these are clearly piano trio accompaniments and quite pleasant all on their own.

I suppose it is a no-brainer to recommend the Haydn Trio Eisenstadt, since they are the only ones to have done the lot. Nonetheless, they are very well done, this was a great project by Brilliant, and probably the only time this mountain will ever be scaled (much like their Baryton Trio project). If you have the Big Box, then give these a listen. As occasional works they are quite suitable. :)

There are still some few Haydn works that are unrecorded. As an example I point out Hob 27, which consists of 57 vocal canons for 2-6 voices, both secular and sacred. Hungaroton did a single disk many years ago but it is totally unavailable, and no other exists to my knowledge. Then, there are the marches and dances that I have been whining about for quite a while now. And certainly a few others. It is strange to me that one keeps seeing new disks of works "by Haydn" which have been known for decades to not be by Haydn, and yet many genuine works still languish either unrecorded, or else, as I have pointed out all along the way, only recorded once! As time goes by, this situation is being very slowly rectified. Many of the works that I presented to you here would not have been possible as recently as a decade ago.

If this series has brought you pleasure, and perhaps piqued your interest in the greatest composer of most time, then I feel hugely successful. I plan to go back to the beginning and upgrade the earlier essays which were very tentative and for which I hadn't developed a framework for. I hate to give the impression that the early works aren't worth the effort, I just didn't have a plan. That will be remedied in time, I hope.

Thanks for your interest and all the feedback and input I got.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on February 26, 2012, 07:10:42 PM

(http://www.picgifs.com/smileys/smileys-and-emoticons/applause/smileys-applause-236634.gif)

Thank you very much for doing this, Gurn. It has been a great journey. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kaergaard on February 26, 2012, 10:28:20 PM

Great writing, Gurn. Applause! It got me back here, because I wanted you to know that your talent of putting into plain words, easy to understand, is appreciated also by a non-Haydn follower and devotee. :-*

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 26, 2012, 10:46:27 PM

Very interesting! Thanks for the effort and hard work for something you did purely because you had the interest. Maybe you could add one more chapter that covers sources and available writings about Haydn and his music? I'd love a separate 'book review' chapter. Amyway, just thoughts and do not diminish the work already done!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 26, 2012, 11:40:43 PM

Many thanks for this most interesting series, Gurn! Now that your work of love and knowledge is completed I cannot help but cry out loud: Bravo, maestro!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on February 26, 2012, 11:54:26 PM

The great work is completed! It will serve us for years.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on February 27, 2012, 12:55:45 AM

I have nothing much to what has already been said about your series, Gurn. It was a labour of love, truly, the fruits of which you shared with the rest of the world. Your enthusiasm easily comes through the paragraphs and sometimes it is very infectious (and as Karl is wont to point out, financially damaging ;)). And the balanace of history infused with dry humour and recording recommendations (of the non-authoritative sort, if I might cheekily add) was nigh perfect and felt like a breath of fresh air. I realise that there is some more to come before the series comes to a close, but in a way this isn't the end but a beginning to many of us for a thorough exploration, or as near as we can get to one, of Haydn's oeuvre. Thank you. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on February 27, 2012, 03:31:23 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on February 27, 2012, 12:55:45 AM
I have nothing much to what has already been said about your series, Gurn. It was a labour of love, truly, the fruits of which you shared with the rest of the world. Your enthusiasm easily comes through the paragraphs and sometimes it is very infectious (and as Karl is wont to point out, financially damaging ;)). And the balanace of history infused with dry humour and recording recommendations (of the non-authoritative sort, if I might cheekily add) was nigh perfect and felt like a breath of fresh air. I realise that there is some more to come before the series comes to a close, but in a way this isn't the end but a beginning to many of us for a thorough exploration, or as near as we can get to one, of Haydn's oeuvre. Thank you. :)

I very much appreciate this comment and do not interpret it in any kind of negative manner. But on the contrary, I am so tired of classical music reviews and critics who exude conceit that it has almost entirely turned me off of reading professional reviews. Gurn, you are certainly a sophisticated and knowledable listener and commenter on Haydn, and classical music in general, and I do not wish to impune your depth in the subject but only wish to applaud your ability to share you expertise and enthusiasm but without any of the negative traits so often found in reviewers/critics.

Many thanks!

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2012, 04:25:59 AM

I would like to thank you all so very much for your enthusiasm. Haydn would thank you. And as I have said, if even a few people will have discovered and loved something new, then it is wildly successful for me. :)

Navneeth & Arnold, as you have faultlessly discerned, it is and always was my intent to filter the recordings through my personal taste and put it out there as such. For me, although certainly not for everyone, things like authenticity are very important. So some of my choices seem bizarre at times, but they are never unmusical, just different. I am clearly on board with you about the current state of musical criticism, and I long for some old-fashioned enthusiasm too. :)

Also, thanks for the idea on a review of the available literature. It will take me a while to whip into shape, since there are some (outrageously expensive) things that I don't have yet. Working on that though. That factor will probably be included in the criteria!

Kaergard, so nice to see you again. I'm delighted that I could get you to de-lurk... :D

Thanks again, and happy listening to all.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on February 27, 2012, 04:54:09 AM

Quote from: Arnold on February 27, 2012, 03:31:23 AM
But on the contrary, I am so tired of classical music reviews and critics who exude conceit that it has almost entirely turned me off of reading professional reviews.

Contrary? I think we are on the same page. :) I should have probably written "non-(self-appointed)-authoritative". ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 27, 2012, 05:12:53 AM

"... it needed done" is on the colloquial side. Not sure if you slipped, O Gurn, or if that's the side where you mean to leave it hang...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2012, 05:19:50 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 27, 2012, 05:12:53 AM
"... it needed done" is on the colloquial side. Not sure if you slipped, O Gurn, or if that's the side where you mean to leave it hang...

?

In any case, I was born colloquial, so it's probably OK by me. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on February 27, 2012, 11:02:39 AM

Gurn, a grand and worthy effort, well written and fun to read, and the guide to have for anyone interested in Haydn, and it opens doors for experienced listeners too.

Thank you!!!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2012, 11:18:12 AM

Quote from: Leo K on February 27, 2012, 11:02:39 AM
Gurn, a grand and worthy effort, well written and fun to read, and the guide to have for anyone interested in Haydn, and it opens doors for experienced listeners too.

Thank you!!!

8)

No, thank you. I hope it serves you well. :)

I was thinking of getting Greg to do some illustrations for me, maybe something like this;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/haydn2.jpg)

What do you think? :D

8)

PS - Picture stolen from DavidW 0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on February 27, 2012, 11:32:04 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 27, 2012, 11:18:12 AM
No, thank you. I hope it serves you well. :)

I was thinking of getting Greg to do some illustrations for me, maybe something like this;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/haydn2.jpg)

What do you think? :D

8)

LOL :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on February 27, 2012, 04:38:06 PM

Awesome you still remember that one! I think to date that was still my best avatar. ;D And yes it was shamelessly stolen from elsewhere on the web.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2012, 04:42:40 PM

Quote from: DavidW on February 27, 2012, 04:38:06 PM
Awesome you still remember that one! I think to date that was still my best avatar. ;D And yes it was shamelessly stolen from elsewhere on the web.

Oh, that's a beauty! It makes me want to write a graphic ~~novel~~... biography/chronology. :D

If it just had some big-eyed girls in it, I'm sure Greg would learn to do it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on February 28, 2012, 09:49:39 AM

I've been listening to this disc from the Hogwood Haydn symphony set -

[asin]B000004CY1[/asin]

Vol. 3, #3 - the entire volume contains a batch of early works, but disc 3 has No. 16, 40, and 72.

I remain enamored of the early Haydn symphonies. But this is really only limited to the symphonies and does not generally extend to the chamber or keyboard works. But, it is true that I like very much works by other composers from the period of transition from the Baroque to the Classical, roughly 1740-1770.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 28, 2012, 10:24:13 AM

Quote from: Arnold on February 28, 2012, 09:49:39 AM
I've been listening to this disc from the Hogwood Haydn symphony set -

[asin]B000004CY1[/asin]

Vol. 3, #3 - the entire volume contains a batch of early works, but disc 3 has No. 16, 40, and 72.

I remain enamored of the early Haydn symphonies. But this is really only limited to the symphonies and does not generally extend to the chamber or keyboard works. But, it is true that I like very much works by other composers from the period of transition from the Baroque to the Classical, roughly 1740-1770.

:)

Oddly, 40 & 72 are contemporary with 6, 7, 8 etc. When Mandyzewski (sic) ordered them back in <>1905, he made some tragic mistakes which were more than balanced out by the good things. That is just the sort of thing that lives on forever, despite the mistake having been pointed out... :-\

I like a lot of the other early works. I've always been a divertimento sort of guy, I guess... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on February 28, 2012, 10:31:01 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 28, 2012, 10:24:13 AM
Oddly, 40 & 72 are contemporary with 6, 7, 8 etc. When Mandyzewski (sic) ordered them back in <>1905, he made some tragic mistakes which were more than balanced out by the good things. That is just the sort of thing that lives on forever, despite the mistake having been pointed out... :-\

I like a lot of the other early works. I've always been a divertimento sort of guy, I guess... :D

8)

Yes, I am aware that 40 and 72 are contemporaneous with the lower numbers, but may written my post in indicate otherwise. I was just mentioning which symphonies were on the third disc.

Speaking of divertimenti, I just got this and love it:

[asin]B000031X8Y[/asin]

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 28, 2012, 10:39:14 AM

Quote from: Arnold on February 28, 2012, 10:31:01 AM
Yes, I am aware that 40 and 72 are contemporaneous with the lower numbers, but may written my post in indicate otherwise. I was just mentioning which symphonies were on the third disc.

Speaking of divertimenti, I just got this and love it:

[asin]B000031X8Y[/asin]

:)

Ah, of course you are! My bad.

I've been looking at that disk for a while now, trying to make a choice on it. It does look interesting, I must say. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 28, 2012, 05:58:58 PM

Well, as promised, I have begun revising and upgrading the earliest essays in the series.

Revised Part 1 - 1749 - 50 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg570267.html#msg570267)

I really wasn't sure how to go about all that, and so I simply overcopied the original with the revision. In order to make it easier I include a link to allow easy access. If anyone feels like a different format would be better (like just posting them here at the end, so to speak) and has another idea, let me know. I do hope you will find these revisions an improvement. I've learned a lot since this all began! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 01, 2012, 06:09:47 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 28, 2012, 10:58:58 PM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=54.msg605602#msg605602)

Well, as promised, I have begun revising and upgrading the earliest essays in the series.

Cool!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 01, 2012, 08:36:23 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 22, 2011, 12:09:58 PM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=54.msg570267#msg570267)

. . . One would have to believe that for all intents and purposes, if Haydn wrote it himself it was probably pretty much accurate (although he starts off in the first sentence saying that he was born in 1733 rather than '32... ::) ).

Say, Gurn . . . what was his birthdate? (Later I shall reveal the driver for my question . . . .)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 01, 2012, 09:39:06 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 01, 2012, 08:36:23 AM
Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 22, 2011, 12:09:58 PM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=54.msg570267#msg570267)
. . . One would have to believe that for all intents and purposes, if Haydn wrote it himself it was probably pretty much accurate (although he starts off in the first sentence saying that he was born in 1733 rather than '32... ::) ).

Say, Gurn . . . what was his birthdate? (Later I shall reveal the driver for my question . . . .)

Either March 31 or April 1, 1732. His situation precisely parallels Beethoven's; baptism date recorded, birthdate not. He, himself, wasn't actually sure. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 01, 2012, 09:57:00 AM

Well, the idea I had in the back of my mind probably does not come into it. I was thinking the fact that in England, New Year's day was 25 March (the Feast of the Annunication) until England adopted the Gregorian calendar in 1752, which made for the curiosity of one day being 24 March 1731, and the very next day, 25 March 1732. But as the Austrian Empire was Catholic, and had presumably adopted the Gregorian calendar at the outset in 1582, I don't suppose that quirk of the calendar can have come into play.

Unless . . . since Haydn was born on the Hungarian frontier, his village was still on the Julian calendar [?]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 01, 2012, 10:01:08 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 01, 2012, 09:57:00 AM
Well, the idea I had in the back of my mind probably does not come into it. I was thinking the fact that in England, New Year's day was 25 March (the Feast of the Annunication) until England adopted the Gregorian calendar in 1752, which made for the curiosity of one day being 24 March 1731, and the very next day, 25 March 1732. But as the Austrian Empire was Catholic, and had presumably adopted the Gregorian calendar at the outset in 1582, I don't suppose that quirk of the calendar can have come into play.

Unless . . . since Haydn was born on the Hungarian frontier, his village was still on the Julian calendar [?]

Well, Austria-Hungary was the seat of the Holy Roman Empire at that time. They were, in fact, the same country, so to speak.

I did read something just recently that was based on that calendrical anomaly though. I'll flog my brain to come up with it and get back here. It wasn't to do with Haydn though... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 01, 2012, 10:13:08 AM

Geo. Washington, maybe. I should have called it "Austria-Hungary," too, but if my cursory reading on Wikipedia is to be believed, that may be an anachronism . . . the Austro-Hungarian Empire (they say) did not exist per se until 1867; that even the designation "Austrian Empire" emerged only late in Haydn's life (1804). So that for most of Haydn's life, he was a subject of the Habsburgs, to be sure.

Quote from: WikipediaIn 1711, Austrian Emperor Charles VI became the next ruler of Hungary. From this time on, the designation Royal Hungary was abandoned, and the area was once again referred to as the Kingdom of Hungary.[citation needed] Throughout the 18th century, the Kingdom of Hungary had its own Diet (parliament) and constitution, but the members of the Governor's Council (Helytartótanács, the office of the palatine) were appointed by the Habsburg monarch, and the superior economic institution, the Hungarian Chamber, was directly subordinated to the Court Chamber in Vienna.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 01, 2012, 11:25:48 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 01, 2012, 10:13:08 AM
Geo. Washington, maybe. I should have called it "Austria-Hungary," too, but if my cursory reading on Wikipedia is to be believed, that may be an anachronism . . . the Austro-Hungarian Empire (they say) did not exist per se until 1867; that even the designation "Austrian Empire" emerged only late in Haydn's life (1804). So that for most of Haydn's life, he was a subject of the Habsburgs, to be sure.

QuoteQuote from: Wikipedia

In 1711, Austrian Emperor Charles VI became the next ruler of Hungary. From this time on, the designation Royal Hungary was abandoned, and the area was once again referred to as the Kingdom of Hungary.[citation needed] Throughout the 18th century, the Kingdom of Hungary had its own Diet (parliament) and constitution, but the members of the Governor's Council (Helytartótanács, the office of the palatine) were appointed by the Habsburg monarch, and the superior economic institution, the Hungarian Chamber, was directly subordinated to the Court Chamber in Vienna.

It can be very confusing, although I think that bolded sentence is the arbiter of the situation. There was no doubt in the mind of Prince Esterházy that he reported to and was subordinate to Empress Maria Theresa, Emperor Joseph, etc. It may well have been an unwilling subjugation, but no matter. Rohrau, however, is undoubtedly not in Hungary, and Haydn himself was from South German ethnic stock, despite the proximity of Hungarians, Croats and all sorts during his growing up years. There was a lot of 'learned' bull$hit written early in the 20th century about Haydn actually being a Croat and that's why there was a hint of that sort of folk idiom in his music, but that sort of thing has been thoroughly discredited. No matter though what the area was called at any given time, there was always a Hungarian element and a Germanic one. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 01, 2012, 11:50:25 AM

Aye, just so. He may just have got the date wrong, himself, strange though we should find that in our own context.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on March 01, 2012, 01:18:16 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 01, 2012, 09:39:06 AM
Either March 31 or April 1, 1732. His situation precisely parallels Beethoven's; baptism date recorded, birthdate not. He, himself, wasn't actually sure. :-\

8)

Obviously March 31, since he certainly was no fool.

BTW, Hungary would have gone on the Gregorian calendar when Pope Gregory promulgated it back in fifteen-whatever year it was, like all Catholic countries. The UK, being a Protestant country, stuck to the Julian calender for another century plus; Russia/Soviet Union did not switch until after the fall of the Czars, since they were Eastern Orthodox, which is why the October Revolution did not actually happen in October (on the Gregorian calendar). The Eastern Orthodox churches and countries stuck to the Julian calendar until the 20th century, and there is still a group of Orthodox churches which sticks to the Julian calendar for liturgical purposes on the grounds that no one currently has the right to make the switch.

And Shakespeare was another person for whom we know the date of baptism, but we have no idea of the actual date of birth. April 23 was picked because it was the date of his death, so that made it symbolically nice, and was close enough to the baptismal date to be a reasonable choice.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on March 01, 2012, 07:53:44 PM

Why didn't someone tell me the LHQ recorded Op.20?!?! ??? :o ??? :o

anyone?

anyone?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on March 01, 2012, 08:02:37 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on March 01, 2012, 07:53:44 PM
Why didn't someone tell me the LHQ recorded Op.20?!?! ??? :o ??? :o

anyone?

anyone?

I posted when I ordered it from Prestoclassical (I think it was Presto)--probably in Haydn's Haus. And at least one other GMGer did the same.

If you want to keep an eye on LHQ check Hyperion's website once a month or so; they have a webpage which lists upcoming releases, usually about a month beforehand.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 02, 2012, 04:12:19 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on March 01, 2012, 07:53:44 PM
Why didn't someone tell me the LHQ recorded Op.20?!?! ??? :o ??? :o

anyone?

anyone?

Jeffrey, Sonic Dave and I discussed it in Haydn Haus several ... months (/) ago now. Been a while anyway. That's what you get for not keeping in touch with the hottest thread on the forum.... :P

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 02, 2012, 04:26:26 AM

snypsss snypsssed hisself out of the loop!

Separately . . . now my other Quatuor Mosaïques box is in!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 02, 2012, 04:46:08 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 02, 2012, 04:26:26 AM
snypsss snypsssed hisself out of the loop!

Separately . . . now my other Quatuor Mosaïques box is in!

Excellent! I trust you will find it equally compelling as the ~~first. Umm, second...~~ other one. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 02, 2012, 05:41:10 AM

Well, not that this will surprise a veteran Haydnista sich as yerself, O Gurn, but I am delighted to find that the earlier quartets are not merely charming, but already sturdy, good musicking. And of course, I already know that the playing of the Mosaïques is well to my taste.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 02, 2012, 05:50:55 AM

The ending of the finale of the E^b quartet, Op.33 № 2, is delightfully witty. You've probably known this forever, Gurn ; )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 02, 2012, 06:30:47 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 02, 2012, 05:50:55 AM
The ending of the finale of the E^b quartet, Op.33 № 2, is delightfully witty. You've probably known this forever, Gurn ; )

*music plays*
*music stops*

YEAH!!!

*music plays again*
:-[

*music stops*
(Ha, won't fool me again)...
*music stays stopped*
:-[

YEAH!!!

:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on March 02, 2012, 11:09:19 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 02, 2012, 05:41:10 AM
Well, not that this will surprise a veteran Haydnista sich as yerself, O Gurn, but I am delighted to find that the earlier quartets are not merely charming, but already sturdy, good musicking. And of course, I already know that the playing of the Mosaïques is well to my taste.

The early quartets were a revelation to me too, amazing quality they have in abundance!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 02, 2012, 11:32:31 AM

Quote from: Leo K on March 02, 2012, 11:09:19 AM
The early quartets were a revelation to me too, amazing quality they have in abundance!
8)

Well, it isn't something that I want to get into outside of Der Haus, but among Haydn scholars, there is a very sore spot which has to do with the perceived "evolution" of style and quality, as though there was conscious movement towards a goal of perfect Classicism. I think you will see that during my essays, I was extremely careful to avoid giving any impression that this perception was actual reality. It is something that we need to talk about, just not in a thread on recordings of the string quartets. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on March 02, 2012, 12:23:12 PM

I don't think Op 33 is really early, he has already written in his mature style since Op 20. I really consider pre Op 20 his early string quartets, but that's just me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 02, 2012, 12:31:41 PM

Quote from: DavidW on March 02, 2012, 12:23:12 PM
I don't think Op 33 is really early, he has already written in his mature style since Op 20. I really consider pre Op 20 his early string quartets, but that's just me.

9, 17 & 20 were written in consecutive years (1769-71). They are all about on the same level musically, IMO... :-\

I guess if I had to say, I would call Op 1 & 2, composed by 1761, to be early works. But not early in the sense of musical maturity or skill or whatever you want to call it, just early in chronology. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 02, 2012, 12:32:37 PM

Quote from: DavidW on Today at 05:23:12 PM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=3866.msg606634#msg606634)

I don't think Op 33 is really early

Mind you, I used the comparative. They are certainly earlier than the other quartets I've heard : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on March 02, 2012, 12:38:10 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 02, 2012, 12:31:41 PM
9, 17 & 20 were written in consecutive years (1769-71). They are all about on the same level musically, IMO... :-\

Well 9 and 17 are nice, I enjoy them but feel that 20 is a significant opus dwarfing the previous works. >:D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 02, 2012, 12:46:17 PM

Quote from: DavidW on March 02, 2012, 12:38:10 PM
Well 9 and 17 are nice, I enjoy them but feel that 20 is a significant opus dwarfing the previous works. >:D

Not really, he just was trying out some different stuff, like fugal sections. All the opuses are different in some ways and similar in others. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 02, 2012, 11:49:46 PM

For those of you considering this box:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41MqpQ1SmRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

You may want to consider waiting for this:
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/4783695.jpg)
MDT shows a release date of April 9.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on March 03, 2012, 06:40:24 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 02, 2012, 12:46:17 PM
Not really, he just was trying out some different stuff, like fugal sections. All the opuses are different in some ways and similar in others. :)

8)

Oh really? Where exactly are the solo passages for cello in Op 9 and 17? And the balance with the duets? Op 20 elevated the string quartet to true chamber music where each instrument has it's chance to shine. Yes of course 9 and 17 are close, but no cigar Op 20 is the threshold set. In addition to being the complex and mature works, I personally feel that there is more emotional depth to the Op 20 works.

Even if you enjoy all three sets equally, I think you can be honest enough to admit that the Op 20 are the greater works. This is the difference between divertimenti and the modern string quartet.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on March 03, 2012, 07:11:48 AM

Quote from: DavidW on March 03, 2012, 06:40:24 AM
Oh really? Where exactly are the solo passages for cello in Op 9 and 17? And the balance with the duets? Op 20 elevated the string quartet to true chamber music where each instrument has it's chance to shine. Yes of course 9 and 17 are close, but no cigar Op 20 is the threshold set. In addition to being the complex and mature works, I personally feel that there is more emotional depth to the Op 20 works.

Even if you enjoy all three sets equally, I think you can be honest enough to admit that the Op 20 are the greater works. This is the difference between divertimenti and the modern string quartet.

Perhaps it is easy to underestimate the Op.9 and 17. Solo passages for cello does not necessarily make Op.20 superior, but reveals a different approach that changed the whole genre. Haydn's piano trios don't usually free the cello from it's accompaniment role, but the trios are still highly regarded masterpieces of chamber music. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on March 03, 2012, 07:26:36 AM

Quote from: Leo K on March 03, 2012, 07:11:48 AM
Perhaps it is easy to underestimate the Op.9 and 17. Solo passages for cello does not necessarily make Op.20 superior, but reveals a different approach that changed the whole genre. Haydn's piano trios don't usually free the cello from it's accompaniment role, but the trios are still highly regarded masterpieces of chamber music. 8)

You're looking at just one of multiple key elements (you're misrepresenting my post) that show that each instrument has their own voice and there is a balance between all four that introduce more complexity than was expected from the genre previously. I'm not saying that makes the gulf wide between 9-17 and 20 but it does introduce a significant gap between them.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on March 03, 2012, 07:44:35 AM

Quote from: DavidW on March 03, 2012, 07:26:36 AM
You're looking at just one of multiple key elements (you're misrepresenting my post) that show that each instrument has their own voice and there is a balance between all four that introduce more complexity than was expected from the genre previously. I'm not saying that makes the gulf wide between 9-17 and 20 but it does introduce a significant gap between them.

Thanks for the clarification, sorry about the generalisation I made, you are right that there is a gap (not wide but it is surely there) between Op.20 and his earlier quartets.

Op.33 is yet another interesting gap from Op.20, Op.33 as a set appears more "flashy and stylistic," or perhaps entertaining, but I think that quality also depends on the ensemble playing them, I prefer the Solomon's account (sounding rustic and down to earth) but eagerly await to hear what the London Haydn Quartet will do with Op.33.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2012, 07:47:02 AM

I would like to move this conversation over to the Haus, since it will range a bit more widely than just the string quartets, and it is certainly not related to "great recordings" either.

Other shared features of Op 9, 17 & 20 are things like harmonic schemes and development of motives. As you mention, instrumentation is only part of it.

Late in life, Haydn (in a conversation that I partially related in Essay #50) to Reicha that in the earliest part of the 1770's he completely relearned how to write music, by studying and practicing. He incorporated this as part of a dictum on the value of doing something musical every day. But a historian took it seriously and did what biblical historians do all the time; he looked for evidence that there was a change in Haydn's music at this same time that would reflect his new learning. And one of the examples he came up with (he pretty much validated the story, between the string quartets and the late Stürm und Dräng symphonies) was the fugal finales of the 3 Op 20 quartets that have them. So certainly that was an advance, and directly related to his ongoing growth. But the advance is in the means of expression, not in the musicality of the content.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on March 03, 2012, 07:58:38 AM

Quote from: Leo K on March 03, 2012, 07:44:35 AM
Thanks for the clarification, sorry about the generalisation I made, you are right that there is a gap (not wide but it is surely there) between Op.20 and his earlier quartets.

Op.33 is yet another interesting gap from Op.20, Op.33 as a set appears more "flashy and stylistic," or perhaps entertaining, but I think that quality also depends on the ensemble playing them, I prefer the Solomon's account (sounding rustic and down to earth) but eagerly await to hear what the London Haydn Quartet will do with Op.33.

8)

I agree about Op 33, it makes it rather unique among his string quartets. I think that there is depth to these galant stylized works but they seem to be polarizing works.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on March 03, 2012, 08:03:58 AM

Quote from: DavidW on March 03, 2012, 07:58:38 AM
I agree about Op 33, it makes it rather unique among his string quartets. I think that there is depth to these galant stylized works but they seem to be polarizing works.

I'm glad you mentioned the term "galant" as for some reason, I didn't think of that term in relation to Op.33...you are right, they are galant stylized and there is depth to them, underneath the galant.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2012, 02:41:53 PM

Quote from: Discobole on March 03, 2012, 02:36:23 PM
Listed between 70 and 80€ everywhere :o

I haven't heard this set yet, although it has been reported to me that it is likely to not be congruent with my tastes, so the likelihood of me spending 80€ to find out is slim, I'm afraid. On the plus side, frequently when there are reissues like this then the market for overpriced collectors items takes a hit, which always pleases me. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on March 03, 2012, 03:12:11 PM

Anyone that wants to hear the set without breaking the piggy bank... it's on spotify. Meanwhile I've been listening to the Kodaly's perform Op 33 today. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on March 03, 2012, 04:01:17 PM

Quote from: DavidW on March 03, 2012, 07:26:36 AM
You're looking at just one of multiple key elements (you're misrepresenting my post) that show that each instrument has their own voice and there is a balance between all four that introduce more complexity than was expected from the genre previously. I'm not saying that makes the gulf wide between 9-17 and 20 but it does introduce a significant gap between them.

I've been reading (rather sporadically) Hans Keller's book on the quartets and you agree with him. Aside from one quartet from Op. 9 (the D minor) he considers Op. 20 to be the beginning of Haydn's "great" quartets.

While the other opuses [sic] (again, this is Keller's thesis) are certainly well worth listening to and have many great things about them, Keller considers them less an achievement than the works from Op. 20 onward.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Conor71 on March 04, 2012, 12:04:12 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on March 03, 2012, 04:49:46 PM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=3866.msg606787#msg606787)

For those of you considering this box:
>(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41MqpQ1SmRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

You may want to consider waiting for this:
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/4783695.jpg)
MDT shows a release date of April 9.

Oh dear, I just bought the first set and did'nt know about the (probably a lot cheaper) re-issue coming out! :-[

Never mind! - I can report that its a great set for those that like modern interpretations and the performances and sound are both wonderful! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 04, 2012, 07:30:27 AM

Quote from: Conor71 on March 04, 2012, 12:04:12 AM
You may want to consider waiting for this:
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/4783695.jpg)
MDT shows a release date of April 9.

Oh dear, I just bought the first set and did'nt know about the (probably a lot cheaper) re-issue coming out! :-[ ..............

Well, just checked MDT for the price on the upcoming release shown above - converts to about $80 USA dollars - current offering for the older set is $88 using Amazon Prime - NOW, will this newer release hit the Amazon MP at possibly $60 or less? I'll wait to see - :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 04, 2012, 07:54:57 AM

Quote from: Conor71 on March 04, 2012, 12:04:12 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on March 03, 2012, 04:49:46 PM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=3866.msg606787#msg606787)
For those of you considering this box:
>(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41MqpQ1SmRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

You may want to consider waiting for this:
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/public/pictures/products/standard/4783695.jpg)
MDT shows a release date of April 9.

Oh dear, I just bought the first set and did'nt know about the (probably a lot cheaper) re-issue coming out! :-[
Never mind! - I can report that its a great set for those that like modern interpretations and the performances and sound are both wonderful! :)

Hi, Conor. I have listened to some excerpts and the sound quality seems a bit reverberant. I have also read some reviews pointing this out. What do you think about this?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on March 04, 2012, 08:50:50 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 05, 2012, 04:24:10 PM
Hi Leo - I've enjoyed the first two Haydn SQ releases from this excellent group & the reviews were excellent, so I just went ahead and purchased the Op. 20 set assuming similar excellence - have just listened once and really enjoyed also - Hyperion as usual has done an outstanding effort in recording these string players.

Well, there was an excellent review on MusicWeb reprinted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=602501); however, I just received the Jan-Feb 2012 issues of the American Record Guide & Fanfare, and was rather shocked by simultaneous and independent negative comments made in both of these publications (for those interested, I've attached a summary of both reviews) - my first feeling is that neither of these reviewers are into this approach at all, particularly by some of their alternate recommendations - will be interested in the thoughts of others - hard to believe that the London Haydn SQ fell apart and did not know what they were doing on these recordings vs. their earlier superb efforts.

I plan to re-listen to these Op. 20 recordings soon and will be curious about the comments from others - Dave :)

I juuust heard about the LHQ Op.20. Hmmm... isn't that what my precious Haydn String Quartet Thread was for?!?! :o :-[ :o :-[

Any new insights? ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on March 04, 2012, 08:54:24 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on March 04, 2012, 07:54:57 AM
Hi, Conor. I have listened to some excerpts and the sound quality seems a bit reverberant. I have also read some reviews pointing this out. What do you think about this?

I'm not Conor but have heard the entire set multiple times (used to own it), and I don't remember it being that bad with the reverb, but it has a very imbalanced stereo imaging that is distracting (at least with headphones).

Performance wise I think that it is similar in style to the Tatrai, a bit on the grim side lacking the warmth and humor that at least I want in my Haydn, but very well played. I prefer both PI cycles over it, I also prefer the Kodaly Q set over it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 04, 2012, 08:55:25 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on March 04, 2012, 08:50:50 AM
I juuust heard about the LHQ Op.20. Hmmm... isn't that what my precious Haydn String Quartet Thread was for?!?! :o :-[ :o :-[

Any new insights? ;D

Well, you need to tend it better. I've gone looking for it before and after 15-20 pages I give up. Probably not just me, either, esp. when the other Haydn thread is right at the top from being used a lot. If you want, I can PM you when the next set comes out... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 04, 2012, 08:58:46 AM

Quote from: Leo K on March 03, 2012, 07:44:35 AM
.....I prefer the Solomon's account (sounding rustic and down to earth) but eagerly await to hear what the London Haydn Quartet will do with Op.33.

I would like to hear the Solomons doing Op 33, but it is pretty much a rarity on the market. I've been picking up their disks when they are the right blend of price and quality, but even at that I don't have them all yet. I wonder why Hyperion don't seem inclined to getting a complete cycle down on tape. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 04, 2012, 09:11:40 AM

Quote from: DavidW on March 04, 2012, 08:54:24 AM
I'm not Conor but have heard the entire set multiple times (used to own it), and I don't remember it being that bad with the reverb, but it has a very imbalanced stereo imaging that is distracting (at least with headphones).

Performance wise I think that it is similar in style to the Tatrai, a bit on the grim side lacking the warmth and humor that at least I want in my Haydn, but very well played. I prefer both PI cycles over it, I also prefer the Kodaly Q set over it.

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 03, 2012, 02:41:53 PM
I haven't heard this set yet, although it has been reported to me that it is likely to not be congruent with my tastes, so the likelihood of me spending 80€ to find out is slim, I'm afraid. On the plus side, frequently when there are reissues like this then the market for overpriced collectors items takes a hit, which always pleases me. :)

8)

Yeah, I didn't want to take your name in vain, but you commented this to me a long time go and I felt right away that this wasn't going to work for me. FWIW, on modern instruments, for an entire cycle's worth, I like the Kodaly's just fine. Of course, one can always cobble together sufficient performances to make a better cycle, but I don't want to go there, since I am quite pleased with my various PI recordings already. :)

9)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on March 04, 2012, 10:20:14 AM

Quote from: DavidW on March 04, 2012, 08:54:24 AM
I don't remember it being that bad with the reverb

I do. Way too much room. (I don't use headphones - can't speak to that.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Conor71 on March 04, 2012, 10:51:23 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on Today at 12:54:57 AM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=3866.msg607156#msg607156)

Hi, Conor. I have listened to some excerpts and the sound quality seems a bit reverberant. I have also read some reviews pointing this out. What do you think about this?

Yes there is a bit of reverb and this probably is'nt to everyones taste - I personally find the effect quite pleasing though :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Conor71 on March 04, 2012, 10:56:44 AM

Quote from: DavidW on Today at 01:54:24 AM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=3866.msg607176#msg607176)

I'm not Conor but have heard the entire set multiple times (used to own it), and I don't remember it being that bad with the reverb, but it has a very imbalanced stereo imaging that is distracting (at least with headphones).

Performance wise I think that it is similar in style to the Tatrai, a bit on the grim side lacking the warmth and humor that at least I want in my Haydn, but very well played. I prefer both PI cycles over it, I also prefer the Kodaly Q set over it.

Yes the strereo image is a bit unbalanced and a lot of the time there appears to be more sound coming into the right side - I thought I was just imagining it at first but I think you are right David :). Overall its not too much of a problem and I still prefer this recording to my previous one which is by the Aeolian Quartet.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Conor71 on March 04, 2012, 11:04:25 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on Today at 12:30:27 AM (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=3866.msg607147#msg607147)

Well, just checked MDT for the price on the upcoming release shown above - converts to about $80 USA dollars - current offering for the older set is $88 using Amazon Prime - NOW, will this newer release hit the Amazon MP at possibly $60 or less? I'll wait to see - :)

I paid about $80 US for my set so I dont feel too bad now Dave, thanks for pointing that out :) The collectors editions usually price well on the Amazon MP and I would'nt be suprised to see it selling for $60 or less for sure! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on March 04, 2012, 11:15:10 AM

The Angeles cycle was my second set after I'd had the Amadeus for a while. I cannot agree that the Kodaly is a better set, I find the Angeles consistently more interesting and of a higher quality that the Kodaly who strike me as merely adequate in these works. I do not listen using headphones and have not noticed anything distracting about the recorded sound. I just put on 76/2, the quartet I am most familiar with, and although I've never noticed it, I can understand the comments about reverberance. It is not so wet that details are blurred, so it does not bother me.

That said, they are not my favorites in these works, but if a set were to be found for budget cost I'd recommend them over many others. But of course different strokes for different folks.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on March 04, 2012, 02:30:16 PM

I still can't believe that I paid $200 for it and now it's $80!!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 05, 2012, 04:01:41 AM

Oof!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on March 05, 2012, 05:02:39 AM

Double oof!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 05, 2012, 05:06:34 AM

Quote from: DavidW on March 04, 2012, 02:30:16 PM
I still can't believe that I paid $200 for it and now it's $80!!!

I can't believe you paid $200 for it. What were you thinking? Didn't you know that someday people were gonna gig you for that? Well, my friend, that day is here! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on March 05, 2012, 05:23:52 AM

Quote from: DavidW on March 04, 2012, 02:30:16 PM
I still can't believe that I paid $200 for it and now it's $80!!!

I paid some $180 for the complete set of the Tatrai Quartet (individual boxes, complete booklets), but there is no regret here. It's better, every time I listen to it. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on March 05, 2012, 08:07:30 AM

Just picked this up - didn't even know it existed:

Joseph Haydn: Five Keyboard Sonatas performed by Malcolm Bilson

[asin]B0009W5JDM[/asin]

The works he plays (on a Schanz Fortepiano) are:

Keyboard Sonata in C major, H. 16/50
Keyboard Sonata in A flat major, H. 16/43
Keyboard Sonata in G major, H. 16/39
Keyboard Sonata in C minor, H. 16/20
Keyboard Sonata in G major, H. 16/40

I am of course enjoying it very much.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 05, 2012, 08:18:35 AM

Quote from: Arnold on March 05, 2012, 08:07:30 AM
Just picked this up - didn't even know it existed:

Joseph Haydn: Five Keyboard Sonatas performed by Malcolm Bilson

[asin]B0009W5JDM[/asin]

The works he plays (on a Schanz Fortepiano) are:

Keyboard Sonata in C major, H. 16/50
Keyboard Sonata in A flat major, H. 16/43
Keyboard Sonata in G major, H. 16/39
Keyboard Sonata in C minor, H. 16/20
Keyboard Sonata in G major, H. 16/40

I am of course enjoying it very much.

:)

Ah, Arnold, and I've raved over that disk a few times now too. It is one of my very favorite Haydn keyboard disks! For those who haven't got it yet; highly recommended. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on March 05, 2012, 08:22:36 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 05, 2012, 08:18:35 AM
Ah, Arnold, and I've raved over that disk a few times now too. It is one of my very favorite Haydn keyboard disks! For those who haven't got it yet; highly recommended. :)

8)

Oh, sorry if I missed the rec by you recently. I am sometimes a lazy reader ...

:-[

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 05, 2012, 08:31:27 AM

Quote from: Arnold on March 05, 2012, 08:22:36 AM
Oh, sorry if I missed the rec by you recently. I am sometimes a lazy reader ...

:-[

:)

Oh, no worries, most recently was a while back now. Like in January, I think. Anyway, I'm delighted you got this, and nice to see that your first impression matches up with mine. Mine has never faded either, I still am very fond of this disk. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on March 05, 2012, 08:48:33 AM

I have the later quartets - "Papa" has a big catalogue and the early works are interesting historically for the creation of the form, but for listening pleasure, I appreciate the mature pieces. Have these on CD:

(http://s13.postimage.org/bqjkwx4wn/CD_Haydn_Qts.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 05, 2012, 09:12:21 AM

Quote from: Scion7 on March 05, 2012, 08:48:33 AM
I have the later quartets - "Papa" has a big catalogue and the early works are interesting historically for the creation of the form, but for listening pleasure, I appreciate the mature pieces.

I don't mean to tell you what to listen to, or what pieces you should appreciate...but, you do know that calling masterpieces like the Op.20 quartets "early" works is seriously misrepresenting the music? Haydn was forty years old when he composed them. They are fully mature quartets and much more than merely "historically interesting." By refusing to listen to op.20 (and 33, 50, 54, 55 and 64) you're really doing yourself a disservice, and missing out on some of the greatest quartets ever written.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on March 05, 2012, 09:38:57 AM

I've listened to them. But one only has so much time (and resources!) - I have an extensive [as in literally over 4,000 albums-call me crazy!] classical, jazz, folk, blues, and some of the more advanced rock stuff - I can't spend time on everything! :D When I say "mature" I should have said "late" - Opus 20 certainly nailed the string quartet to what the form was from that point on.
It's ok if I don't grab Op.1, 2, 9, 17? Argh, my house runneth over as it is. Now you've planted the Op.20 bug and I must resist!

What with the late Mozart qts, the middle & late Beethoven, the Schubert and Brahms, Dvorak, the Bartok, the Schoenberg-Berg-Webern, the Shostakovich and Bacewicz and Prokofiev, just to name a 'few' - that's a bunch of string quartet to digest, along with all the other music, over a lifetime!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 05, 2012, 09:41:07 AM

What's your hurry? ; )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on March 05, 2012, 10:02:41 AM

I enjoy the cd's of the late quartets - mostly purchased for travel purposes,
but at home I still put on - Op.76 & 77 & 103:

(http://s14.postimage.org/kr7xm79cx/Haydn_Op_76_77_103_Aeolian_Qt_LPbox.jpg)

Good English London pressings - pretty quiet - warm sound. Nice box set with informative 8pg insert. Early 70's recording.

I saw the violist, Margaret Major, on tv once - promoting a concert, I think - and I see she has published an arrangement of Sevcik Op.3 for viola.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on March 05, 2012, 10:15:51 AM

Same for this one:

(http://s16.postimage.org/55b1f2a0l/Haydn_Op71_74_Aeolian_Qt.jpg)

Did I read somewhere that Haydn had a Dutch "enemy" so to speak - either a publisher or composer? Anyway, I seem to recall that this guy was personally critical of Haydn in various social circles.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 05, 2012, 10:33:12 AM

Quote from: Scion7 on March 05, 2012, 10:15:51 AM
Same for this one:

(http://s16.postimage.org/55b1f2a0l/Haydn_Op71_74_Aeolian_Qt.jpg)

Did I read somewhere that Haydn had a Dutch "enemy" so to speak - either a publisher or composer? Anyway, I seem to recall that this guy was personally critical of Haydn in various social circles.

Not Dutch, I think. Maybe Deutsch? His critics were mainly massed on the Berlin /Potsdam axis. By and large, and for such a successful person, Haydn had very few enemies, not even of the merely catty sort. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 05, 2012, 10:49:42 AM

Quote from: Scion7 on March 05, 2012, 09:38:57 AM
I've listened to them. But one only has so much time (and resources!) - I have an extensive [as in literally over 4,000 albums-call me crazy!]

I understand. I have myriad musical interests, too, and over 10, 000 albums, including 4000 to 5000 LPs:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/web/P2061977_800.jpg) (http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/web/P2061978_800.jpg)

Quote from: Scion7 on March 05, 2012, 10:15:51 AM
Same for this one:

(http://s16.postimage.org/55b1f2a0l/Haydn_Op71_74_Aeolian_Qt.jpg)

I have that Aeolian Quartet box too 8) Must've been one of my first Haydn quartet purchases.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on March 05, 2012, 11:49:04 AM

Ha ha - does EVERYONE use that same make/model bookshelf for shelving their albums??!?!
That's what I and just about everyone I know uses. A couple have Peaches crates, but their collections are not as large.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 05, 2012, 11:50:40 AM

We all of us just use the same stock photograph . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 05, 2012, 11:52:22 AM

Quote from: Scion7 on March 05, 2012, 11:49:04 AMdoes EVERYONE use that same make/model bookshelf for shelving their albums??!?!

My brother-in-law, the carpenter, will be extremely offended ;D

Actually, he built the shelves specifically for my LP collection. A wedding present for Mrs. Rock and me.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 05, 2012, 11:53:11 AM

: )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ataraxia on March 05, 2012, 11:55:30 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 05, 2012, 11:50:40 AM
We all of us just use the same stock photograph . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on March 05, 2012, 11:56:16 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 05, 2012, 11:50:40 AM
We all of us just use the same stock photograph . . . .

;D :D ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on March 05, 2012, 06:44:09 PM

Quote from: Scion7 on March 05, 2012, 11:49:04 AM
Ha ha - does EVERYONE use that same make/model bookshelf for shelving their albums??!?!
That's what I and just about everyone I know uses. A couple have Peaches crates, but their collections are not as large.

I don't have those bookshelves. I have some CD shelving from The Container Store, a bookcase for CDs from Target, some CD racks from K-mart, and a bunch of cardboard boxes lying on the floor. All of it in my bedroom, leaving just enough space for my desk, my closet, my TV and my CD player/alarm clock. Oh, and there's a bed in there too somewhere :) I'm not sure how many I have, since I stopped counting at about 700. but I remain well short of Sarge status. Somewhere between 1500 and 2000 is my best guess.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: eyeresist on March 05, 2012, 09:23:29 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 05, 2012, 11:50:40 AMWe all of us just use the same stock photograph . . . .

I can't even afford the photo :'(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 07, 2012, 07:11:54 AM

You know, you cruise along, enjoying the overall fine musicking of this Haydn chap, digging the fact that as you hear more and more of his catalogue, it's musical time very well spent — and then he'll whap you upside da haid with an extra-exquisite Adagio. Like this F Major piano sonata, f'rinstance (HXVI:23)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2012, 07:15:42 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 07, 2012, 07:11:54 AM
You know, you cruise along, enjoying the overall fine musicking of this Haydn chap, digging the fact that as you hear more and more of his catalogue, it's musical time very well spent — and then he'll whap you upside da haid with an extra-exquisite Adagio. Like this F Major piano sonata, f'rinstance (HXVI:23)

Yeah, slow movements were his specialty, many of them reach levels of sublimity. I often play one two or three times on the way by, as it were. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 07, 2012, 07:22:21 AM

And I love how Beghin avails himself of an occasional lute stop, Gurn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on March 07, 2012, 09:50:43 AM

Oh, yes I like the Beghin set quite a lot, and generally prefer period instrument recordings, especially of the keyboard works. However, there are some recordings on piano which I also enjoy. I've had the John McCabe set for ages, I think it was my first complete set - and it holds up. There's the 4-disc Brendel set that is really fantastic. There are others, but I've never focused on modern recordings so I don't have Hamelin, and wish I didn't have Gould.

Now we come to Jean-Efflam Bavouzet who seems to be embarking on a complete set of the Haydn sonatas. I've liked his playing in Debussy, and even Gershwin - but had not heard him in Classical era works. I know of three volumes of Haydn so far, and took the plunge. These are not indulgent performances, no unstylistic over-pedaling, or other pianistic elements which I find distracting when used on Haydn, or other pre-piano composers. Some reviews have complained of a loss of focus after the first disc, but I have not lived with them long enough to confirm that judgement.

Not overly reverberant, and his playing is not uncharacteristic for these works. If that sounds like faint praise, it's not - it is just that I am not prone to indepth analysis of recordings and only want to convey a general impression. Also, as I said, I haven't lived with these very long and am still listening to them for the first time. So far I like them at least as much as the McCabe.

Recommended but not for doctrinaire PIons.

[asin]B003627OMG[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2012, 10:02:07 AM

That seems like a very fair assessment, Arnold. I also have the McCabe, and it was also my first complete traversal. I like McCabe because he makes a modern piano not sound like a modern piano. Much like Ingrid Haebler does in Mozart;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/71KXlfzFKyL.jpg)

While both of these artists are able to bring it off, most modern pianists in either of these cycles of work tend to turn me off with overly reverberant sound. Stylistically, the commonly used (today) legato that was aspired to by the early Romantics and most pianists since then simply doesn't work that well in these works. So overall, I'll probably give most of the moderns a miss (especially Gould! :D ), but as I always do, I say again that one should go with whatever pleases him, since the music is the thing. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on March 07, 2012, 10:08:53 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 07, 2012, 10:02:07 AM
That seems like a very fair assessment, Arnold. I also have the McCabe, and it was also my first complete traversal. I like McCabe because he makes a modern piano not sound like a modern piano. Much like Ingrid Haebler does in Mozart;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/71KXlfzFKyL.jpg)

While both of these artists are able to bring it off, most modern pianists in either of these cycles of work tend to turn me off with overly reverberant sound. Stylistically, the commonly used (today) legato that was aspired to by the early Romantics and most pianists since then simply doesn't work that well in these works. So overall, I'll probably give most of the moderns a miss (especially Gould! :D ), but as I always do, I say again that one should go with whatever pleases him, since the music is the thing. :)

8)

Interesting that you mention Ingrid Haebler, I too enjoy her Mozart, I have her on maybe six concertos. I also like Casadeus. There's no need to invest in Bavouzet if your interest is primarily for period recordings and especially since you already have McCabe. I just like hearing Haydn under a wide variety of settings and find it hard to resist the keyboard sonatas labeled with Vol. 1, Vol. 2, etc.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2012, 10:28:34 AM

Quote from: Arnold on March 07, 2012, 10:08:53 AM
Interesting that you mention Ingrid Haebler, I too enjoy her Mozart, I have her on maybe six concertos. I also like Casadeus. There's no need to invest in Bavouzet if your interest is primarily for period recordings and especially since you already have McCabe. I just like hearing Haydn under a wide variety of settings and find it hard to resist the keyboard sonatas labeled with Vol. 1, Vol. 2, etc.

:)

:) Yes, you must develop inner stiffness, Arnold. Else you will succumb to CDCDCD! :D

Unusually enough, I have Haebler playing Haydn (5 sonatas) on a fortepiano (unidentified model), recorded in 1968, it is the oldest fortepiano recording I've ever seen. And it is excellent besides. Clearly raised her even higher in my estimation!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on March 08, 2012, 05:53:42 AM

Arnold, I agree on the Brendel Haydn set, I love his sound in Haydn (as well as his Mozart and Schubert). I'm still exploring his Haydn but it fits right with my sensibilities.

I had forgotten how great the sound of a modern grand can be. It took a recent journey with Bach's WTC on the piano for me to have this revelation!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 08, 2012, 07:29:57 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 05, 2012, 08:34:47 AM
I am thrilled to see Haydn as high as #3! His stock value is improving every day. :)

Quote from: eyeresist on March 05, 2012, 04:01:33 PM
But how long can this Haydn bubble last? :(

Quote from: Bogey on March 05, 2012, 06:59:23 PM
With Haydn's Army aboard, FOREVER! ;D Hit me, Sarge!

First Sergeant Haydn

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan11/sgthaydnarmy.jpg)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 08, 2012, 11:08:12 AM

This here oratorio, The Creation, hath utterly gobsmacked me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on March 08, 2012, 11:27:23 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 08, 2012, 11:08:12 AM
This here oratorio, The Creation, hath utterly gobsmacked me.

Vollendet ist das gobsmacking Werk!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 08, 2012, 12:56:32 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 08, 2012, 07:29:57 AM
First Sergeant Haydn

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan11/sgthaydnarmy.jpg)

Sarge

That is a very rare picture from when Sergeant Haydn led the charge at the Battle of Lodi. From Wikipedia Commons:

QuoteThe Battle of Lodi was fought on May 10, 1796 between French forces under General Napoleon Bonaparte and an Austrian rear guard led by Sergeant Franz Joseph Haydn at Lodi, Lombardy. Despite playing the March for the Society of Royal Musicians at full volume, the rear guard was eventually defeated, but the main body of Johann Peter Beaulieu's Austrian Army had time to retreat.

Thanks for reminding us all of the valiant aspect of Haydn that is too often overlooked when speaking of his music! $:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on March 08, 2012, 01:29:02 PM

First sergeant Haydn!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 08, 2012, 01:40:10 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 08, 2012, 12:56:32 PM
That is a very rare picture from when Sergeant Haydn led the charge at the Battle of Lodi. From Wikipedia Commons:

Thanks for reminding us all of the valiant aspect of Haydn that is too often overlooked when speaking of his music! $:)

8)

What would we do without Wiki? So much history would be lost ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 08, 2012, 02:35:53 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 08, 2012, 01:40:10 PM
What would we do without Wiki? So much history would be lost ;D

Sarge

Well, Wiki plus your picture album! You have some amazing things stored there, Sarge. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on March 09, 2012, 09:39:54 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 05, 2012, 09:12:21 AM. . .Op.20 quartets

Ok - I traded some precious life essence for the Opus 20 set by the Mosaic Quartet (not their french name) - are you satisfied???
You have seriously compromised my CDCDCD. :-\

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on March 09, 2012, 09:47:24 AM

Quote from: Scion7 on March 09, 2012, 09:39:54 AM
Ok - I traded some precious life essence for the Opus 20 set by the Mosaic Quartet (not their french name) - are you satisfied???
You have seriously compromised my CDCDCD. :-\

That will be the cd set that triggers the avalanche that buries you under vinyl and plastic! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on March 10, 2012, 08:01:04 AM

Quote from: Arnold on March 07, 2012, 09:50:43 AM
Oh, yes I like the Beghin set quite a lot, and generally prefer period instrument recordings, especially of the keyboard works. However, there are some recordings on piano which I also enjoy. I've had the John McCabe set for ages, I think it was my first complete set - and it holds up. There's the 4-disc Brendel set that is really fantastic. There are others, but I've never focused on modern recordings so I don't have Hamelin, and wish I didn't have Gould.

Now we come to Jean-Efflam Bavouzet who seems to be embarking on a complete set of the Haydn sonatas. I've liked his playing in Debussy, and even Gershwin - but had not heard him in Classical era works. I know of three volumes of Haydn so far, and took the plunge. These are not indulgent performances, no unstylistic over-pedaling, or other pianistic elements which I find distracting when used on Haydn, or other pre-piano composers. Some reviews have complained of a loss of focus after the first disc, but I have not lived with them long enough to confirm that judgement.

Not overly reverberant, and his playing is not uncharacteristic for these works. If that sounds like faint praise, it's not - it is just that I am not prone to indepth analysis of recordings and only want to convey a general impression. Also, as I said, I haven't lived with these very long and am still listening to them for the first time. So far I like them at least as much as the McCabe.

Recommended but not for doctrinaire PIons.

[asin]B003627OMG[/asin]

Arnold, I got these new recordings on your recommendation, and can say the first disk is truely wonderful, I'm loving the tone of the piano ( I believe it is a Yamaha) and the performances!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 10, 2012, 09:36:39 AM

Continuing my effort to revise the early essays in the series, I have just finished with Parts 2 & 3 (they are combined into one long part). Please feel free to check them out, I hope you find it worth your time. And certainly feedback is nice, always looking to improve. :)

8)

Parts 2 & 3 (1751-53) (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg570274.html#msg570274)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on March 10, 2012, 10:36:14 AM

Someone has uploaded onto symphonyshare the Australian Chamber Orchestra and Richard Tognetti playing Symphony 88 in Vienna on November 30, 2011.

It's well worth hearing.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kentel on March 10, 2012, 02:37:50 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on October 22, 2011, 08:09:58 AM
Part 1

1749-50 and before...

We start off here with the Missa brevis, which I am opting to go with Burdick here. His version is the most fundamental, he uses the actual original instrumentation while nearly everyone else uses the 1805 re-orchestration that Haydn himself did for publication in Breitkopf & Härtel's 'Complete Works'.

For the Missa 'rorate coeli desuper', an Advent mass with an uncertain origin, I have chosen Hickox and Co.. Not least because they have deigned to record it and let you hear it for yourself. This is a very simple mass, written in the style of the time, which was having all 4 lines written simultaneously so that extended parts of the Gloria and Credo come out on just a page. The current scholarship, after years of fretting over it, is that Haydn composed the 2 violin parts and the vocal melodies, all of which are less polished, over the perfect figured bass that was probably composed by his teacher, Rütter. So a student work, clearly, but one which is still interesting to listen to if you have the chance.

Finally to 1750, where we find 4 Motets of the Holy Sacrament. From a 13th century text, Lauda Sion! (Praise Sion!) is a series of 4 motets performed at a procession to 4 different altars at the church. In Vienna it was part of the Corpus Christi Day worship. Haydn set it twice; this extremely early version, all 4 in C major, and again in 1765 when he set the texts in the contrasting keys of Bb, d, A & Ab. This is his earliest essay into the Viennese tradition of jubilant, triumphant C major with trumpets and all. I really like the job that Weil and the Tafelmusiker did with this, it smacks of Old Vienna.

So there it is, the beginning of a long, long road. The Baroque is still around, and the road doesn't end until the Romantic (so-called) is in full swing. Haydn spanned the entire age, and in fact, it's name and symbolism, "The Classical Era" derive from the music of this one source. I hope you will enjoy it as much as I do.

8)

Thank you very much for sharing your experience and enthusiasm about Haydn's music. I suddenly realize that he's a composer that I don't really know. We have him at hand all the time, but we just know a few symphonies, a few string quartets and the Creation...

I've read your biographical notes and listened to the 3 first works you mentioned. The Missa Brevis is awesome : I expected some kind of boring choral work written by a young prodigy, technically beyond critics but deprived of density and inspiration. In fact it is an outstanding piece, thematically splendid from the beginning to the end, with beautiful choir and instrumental textures.

I was not very fond of the two others : the 4 Motets and the Mass "Rorate coeli desuper", which are fine piece without the thematical and instrumental inspiration of the Missa Brevis.

I listened to Burdick and Hickox, and I noticed that the numbering of the masses is quite disconcerting : the first mass ("Missa Brevis") has the nr.2 while its Hoboken nr. is XXII-1, which suggests that it should be the first. Moreover, the Mass "Rorate coeli desuper" (Hob XXIII-3) has the nr. 3 in Hickox's, but in Burdick the Mass nr. 3 is the "Cacilienmesse" (Hob XXIII-5)... That's puzzling : is there an explanation to that ?

I couldn't find the Brilliant recording for the 4 Motets, but found it on a choir compilation :

(http://i43.tower.com/images/mm114933983/jubliate-deo-raimund-hug-cd-cover-art.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 10, 2012, 03:18:13 PM

Quote from: kentel on March 10, 2012, 02:37:50 PM
Thank you very much for sharing your experience and enthusiasm about Haydn's music. I suddenly realize that he's a composer that I don't really know. We have him at hand all the time, but we just know a few symphonies, a few string quartets and the Creation...

I've read your biographical notes and listened to the 3 first works you mentioned. The Missa Brevis is awesome : I expected some kind of boring choral work written by a young prodigy, technically beyond critics but deprived of density and inspiration. In fact it is an outstanding piece, thematically splendid from the beginning to the end, with beautiful choir and instrumental textures.

I was not very fond of the two others : the 4 Motets and the Mass "Rorate coeli desuper", which are fine piece without the thematical and instrumental inspiration of the Missa Brevis.

I listened to Burdick and Hickox, and I noticed that the numbering of the masses is quite disconcerting : the first mass ("Missa Brevis") has the nr.2 while its Hoboken nr. is XXII-1, which suggests that it should be the first. Moreover, the Mass "Rorate coeli desuper" (Hob XXIII-3) has the nr. 3 in Hickox's, but in Burdick the Mass nr. 3 is the "Cacilienmesse" (Hob XXIII-5)... That's puzzling : is there an explanation to that ?

I couldn't find the Brilliant recording for the 4 Motets, but found it on a choir compilation :

(http://i43.tower.com/images/mm114933983/jubliate-deo-raimund-hug-cd-cover-art.jpg)

kentel,
Thank you for your visit; hope you will be back for more.

Here is a list of the masses in their correct order;

Year   Hob 22 #   Title
1749     1     Missa brevis
1749     3     Missa 'Rorate coeli desuper'
1768     2     Missa sunt 'bona mixta malis'
1768     4     'Grosseorgelsolomesse'
1772     6     Missa Sancti Nicolai
1773     5     Cäcilienmesse'
1775     7     'Kleine Orgelsolomesse'
1782     8     Mariazellermesse'
1796     9     Paukenmesse'
1796     10     Heiligmesse'
1798     11     Nelsonmesse'
1799     12     Theresienmesse
1801     13     Schöpfungsmesse
1802     14     Harmoniemesse

The problem of numbering arose because Hoboken then, and in many cases, us now, simply didn't know the correct dating of a lot of works. More recent scholarship has nailed down the masses fairly certainly, but other genres still have some ambiguities, or in the case of those which have been resolved, some numbering which is at best a puzzle. :) If you go to the table of contents you can find a link to the (hopefully) correct chronology of the symphonies. Comparing the 'new' numbers with the Hoboken numbers gives you the dual revelation that so many were so wrong, but oppositely, many of them were correct also, a big surprise. :)

That Brilliant recording is a very rare piece, no surprise you were unable to find it. It was licensed from Sony, but sale was allowed only in the Benelux countries. Fortunately for me, I have some very dear friends there who gifted me with both that box and the Hickox. Life is good sometimes. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on March 10, 2012, 04:20:51 PM

Quote from: Leo K on March 10, 2012, 08:01:04 AM
Arnold, I got these new recordings on your recommendation, and can say the first disk is truely wonderful, I'm loving the tone of the piano ( I believe it is a Yamaha) and the performances!

8)

That's good to hear, Leo; I am happy these recordings, so far, are enjoyable for you.

I also liked the sound of the piano, it seemed somehow lighter than a large concert grand. While I still prefer the period instruments I will also hear some Haydn performed on a modern piano, from time to time, that merits recommending. I hope your enjoyment continues through the other volumes. I've gone back and listened to my McCabe set and and am finding his interpretations a bit less interesting, although not bad by any stretch, it is just that Bavouzet seems to play with a some more verve. Of course, that very thing may turn off others.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 10, 2012, 05:35:27 PM

Now I've completed this update; Part 4 - 1754-55 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg570590.html#msg570590)

I hope you enjoy it, clearly I couldn't add any music to it, but I did add quite a bit of biography, for those of you who are following that aspect. Enjoy!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on March 11, 2012, 06:45:22 AM

Quote from: Arnold on March 10, 2012, 04:20:51 PM
That's good to hear, Leo; I am happy these recordings, so far, are enjoyable for you.

I also liked the sound of the piano, it seemed somehow lighter than a large concert grand. While I still prefer the period instruments I will also hear some Haydn performed on a modern piano, from time to time, that merits recommending. I hope your enjoyment continues through the other volumes. I've gone back and listened to my McCabe set and and am finding his interpretations a bit less interesting, although not bad by any stretch, it is just that Bavouzet seems to play with a some more verve. Of course, that very thing may turn off others.

:)

Bavouzet definitely plays with verve, and with wit. I'm still listening to the first disk, and I'm thinking Haydn's keyboard literature is so vast and all encompassing that its difficult to comprehend such a sublime feat!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on March 11, 2012, 06:46:23 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 10, 2012, 05:35:27 PM
Now I've completed this update; Part 4 - 1754-55 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg570590.html#msg570590)

I hope you enjoy it, clearly I couldn't add any music to it, but I did add quite a bit of biography, for those of you who are following that aspect. Enjoy!

8)

Great job Gurn, I'm glad to see these excellant revisions to an already awesome resource!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 11, 2012, 06:50:02 AM

Quote from: Leo K on March 11, 2012, 06:46:23 AM
Great job Gurn, I'm glad to see these excellant revisions to an already awesome resource!

8)

Thanks, Leo. Early times, I didn't have a solid idea where I wanted to go. Actually, I'm pleased to have an opportunity for revision. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 11, 2012, 08:21:50 AM

And now I've updated this one too, it is Part 5 - 1756 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg571607.html#msg571607) . Some may notice that very occasionally in this process I change the recommended disks too. The process of choosing doesn't ever really stop for me, my CDCDCD is as bad (my wife says it's worse) as anyone's.... :D

Enjoy!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on March 11, 2012, 08:44:09 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 11, 2012, 08:21:50 AM
And now I've updated this one too, it is Part 5 - 1756 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg571607.html#msg571607) . Some may notice that very occasionally in this process I change the recommended disks too. The process of choosing doesn't ever really stop for me, my CDCDCD is as bad (my wife says it's worse) as anyone's.... :D

Enjoy!

8)

Ha ha! Just this morning my wife was saying, 'Are you getting MORE Haydn?!" I was saying, "Yeah, this time on piano, rather than harpsichord, for contrast...etc, etc." She just shook her head ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on March 11, 2012, 08:44:09 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 11, 2012, 08:21:50 AM
And now I've updated this one too, it is Part 5 - 1756 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg571607.html#msg571607) . Some may notice that very occasionally in this process I change the recommended disks too. The process of choosing doesn't ever really stop for me, my CDCDCD is as bad (my wife says it's worse) as anyone's.... :D

Enjoy!

8)

I guess we should all go back and edit our posts too. :P

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 11, 2012, 09:07:55 AM

Quote from: Leo K on March 11, 2012, 08:44:09 AM

Ha ha! Just this morning my wife was saying, 'Are you getting MORE Haydn?!" I was saying, "Yeah, this time on piano, rather than harpsichord, for contrast...etc, etc." She just shook her head ;D

:D A Universal Constant... ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 11, 2012, 09:08:31 AM

Quote from: Arnold on March 11, 2012, 08:44:09 AM
I guess we should all go back and edit our posts too. :P

:)

Oh, would you? That would be super! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on March 11, 2012, 09:09:45 AM

Quote from: Leo K on March 11, 2012, 08:44:09 AM

Ha ha! Just this morning my wife was saying, 'Are you getting MORE Haydn?!" I was saying, "Yeah, this time on piano, rather than harpsichord, for contrast...etc, etc." She just shook her head ;D

For a second I thought Gurn wrote that post! :D You'll have to check into the CDCDCDCD ward. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on March 11, 2012, 09:14:25 AM

Quote from: DavidW on March 11, 2012, 09:09:45 AM
For a second I thought Gurn wrote that post! :D You'll have to check into the CDCDCDCD ward. ;D

LOL Indeed!

8) :o 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on March 17, 2012, 10:13:57 AM

Quote from: Leo K on March 11, 2012, 08:44:09 AM

Ha ha! Just this morning my wife was saying, 'Are you getting MORE Haydn?!" I was saying, "Yeah, this time on piano, rather than harpsichord, for contrast...etc, etc." She just shook her head ;D

I've been getting into old school MI performances of Mozart, and now Haydn as well.

This album is a real treasure! Before this, I've only hear Rosbaud's Mahler, so this is a treat to hear him in classical repertore. I'm loving the the BPO in this recording, that big band sound does great for Haydn.

(http://www.freecodesource.com/album-cover/51eF2p9RqGL/-Mozart:-Violinkonzert-No.-4,-Haydn-symphonien-nos.-92-&-104.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 17, 2012, 10:17:32 AM

Quote from: Leo K on March 17, 2012, 10:13:57 AM
I've been getting into old school MI performances of Mozart, and now Haydn as well.

This album is a real treasure! Before this, I've only hear Rosbaud's Mahler, so this is a treat to hear him in classical repertore. I'm loving the the BPO in this recording, that big band sound does great for Haydn.

(http://www.freecodesource.com/album-cover/51eF2p9RqGL/-Mozart:-Violinkonzert-No.-4,-Haydn-symphonien-nos.-92-&-104.jpg)

8)

Cool. And how does Schneiderhan do in the Mozart? That's my favorite concerto of the 5.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on March 17, 2012, 10:27:07 AM

Quote from: Leo K on March 17, 2012, 10:13:57 AM
I've been getting into old school MI performances of Mozart, and now Haydn as well.

This album is a real treasure! Before this, I've only hear Rosbaud's Mahler, so this is a treat to hear him in classical repertore. I'm loving the the BPO in this recording, that big band sound does great for Haydn.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Gyh2wk4wL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I've also been exploring Haydn's keyboard sonatas on the modern piano. I've recently returned to Jando's Naxos recordings ( I have three of them) and they sound really good on this revist, and I'm sorry I haven't returned to them in so long.

[asin]B0000035VG[/asin]

I've also received Walter Olbertz's complete set. Although recorded in the early to mid-seventies, he doesn't give us a full-out romantic Haydn, but still, his Haydn does sound reflective and thoughtful. I've been jumping around this set, and I really LOVE the sound of his Haydn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on March 17, 2012, 10:28:44 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 17, 2012, 10:17:32 AM
Cool. And how does Schneiderhan do in the Mozart? That's my favorite concerto of the 5.... :)

8)

Thats my favorite too! I haven't listened to Schneiderhan yet but I plan to REAL soon! I'll let ya know.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 18, 2012, 05:45:58 PM

It was just the chance of it coming in while I hopped into the car from Errand #2 to Errand #3, so I don't know who the pianist was . . . but there was an interview with someone playing Haydn on WGBH All Classical 99.5 (http://www.wgbh.org/995/) this morning. (Might be able to figure it out from a playlist on-line . . . .)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 23, 2012, 07:04:18 PM

I've been casting around lately for the best versions of some concertos. You guys have given me some suggestions during the course of the bio essays, and now I am acting on that. Here are some recent purchases;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/51qh3es91JL.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/51eklWgyYqL.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnConcertosDantoneMontanaricover-1.jpg)

I got the Dantone a small while back, but well after the period of the keyboard concerti had come and gone, and so we didn't get much opportunity to discuss. Does anyone else have this? Like it? I quite enjoyed the playing, as in the Carmignola disk, it is interesting to hear Italian PI-School musicians play German music. Clearly there is a different take on it, hard to really put your finger on what it is, but the personality of the music seems different. Dantone & Co do a splendid job by any definition. As much as I enjoy Schornsheim's keyboard concertos set, Dantone's ranks up there too. This is commendable.

I am listening to Carmignola right now for the first time. He is clearly the first of my players to make Haydn sound like Vivaldi! And why shouldn't he? Haydn's early concertos are Baroque in most ways. There is nothing at all Classical/Sonata Form about them. They are traditional ripenio-type, let's have a turn, call and response type Baroque concertos. One thing that Carmignola does manage nicely is to show us clearly that Tomassini must have been a fine violinist. I am not really sure why many players seem to downplay the virtuosity that is built in to these works (the early Esterhazy concerti generally, that is). There is no doubt that Haydn wrote them for the virtuosi that he had in his orchestra, and if he hadn't meant them to be played that way he would have just stuck with the obbligato parts that he built in to the early symphonies. This disk is really a nice addition to the Haydn discography, delighted to have it.

The Reinhold Friedrich disk is slated to arrive tomorrow, so more on that when I have given it a proper listen. Given the positive comments that I've read here, I fully expect it to surpass the very laudable efforts of both Pinnock and Hogwood that are currently in my stash. That will be a high mark to top! :)

8)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/51qh3es91JL.jpg)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/51qh3es91JL.jpg)
Orchestre des Champs-Elysées \ Moccia Carmignola (Violin) - Hob 07a_3 Concerto in A for Violin 1st mvmt - Moderato

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 24, 2012, 04:48:24 AM

Gurn, did you know? In Search of Haydn (http://www.mfa.org/search/programs/Phil%20Grabsky) (at the MFA).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 24, 2012, 01:20:49 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 24, 2012, 04:48:24 AM
Gurn, did you know? In Search of Haydn (http://www.mfa.org/search/programs/Phil%20Grabsky) (at the MFA).

No, but thanks for the info. This series, which started with Mozart and Beethoven, is reputedly outstanding. Amazon have it available for preorder, releasing on April 27th. I went ahead and committed. DVD is probably the best I can do for it! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 24, 2012, 02:02:56 PM

Aye, I've seen the Beethoven film, and at the MFA. To-morrow is my day off, and I'll go in to see the last showing.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on March 24, 2012, 05:37:58 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 11, 2012, 08:21:50 AM
And now I've updated this one too, it is Part 5 - 1756 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg571607.html#msg571607) . Some may notice that very occasionally in this process I change the recommended disks too. The process of choosing doesn't ever really stop for me, my CDCDCD is as bad (my wife says it's worse) as anyone's.... :D

Enjoy!

8)

Hang on... this looks like you've been building some kind of thorough Haydn chronology?

I died last night, didn't I? And this is heaven. ;D

PS I've managed to find the start, on page 74...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 24, 2012, 06:24:09 PM

Quote from: orfeo on March 24, 2012, 05:37:58 PM
Hang on... this looks like you've been building some kind of thorough Haydn chronology?

I died last night, didn't I? And this is heaven. ;D

PS I've managed to find the start, on page 74...

Ah, a new Haydnista! If you click the globe under my name it will come up with an index that allows you to go to any year or other topic. There are 50 chronological essays. What you see mainly from the beginning is that when I began I was rather less organized than later, and so I am redoing the first 20 or so. They are very much a personal take on the performance suggestions.... :)

Please enjoy and feel free to comment and suggest.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on March 24, 2012, 07:18:55 PM

Thanks. I probably won't comment or suggest for any of the ones that you're redoing, because as far as my music collection is currently concerned it seems as if Haydn almost dropped out of the sky and landed in London.

Which irritates me mightily. I'm naturally like that with all composers/musicians, in that if I like them I want to get to know their body of work as a whole. But with Haydn, not only is the imbalance in my collection particularly acute, he's also one of my very favourite composers. I've been trying to scrape together my own rough chronological ideas for various types of works (symphonies, quartets, keyboard sonatas), but it's not easy with all the vague estimates, so it's rather exciting to find someone who's been spending a few years sorting it out as best as it can be sorted.

I've only read the first 6 parts so far, so can you give me a sneak preview and tell me if you later identify the works that WERE published in sets, originally? My completist streak very much likes to know when things actually belonged together, in the composer's mind (at least when arranging publication) and when things have just ended up that way on my CD.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 25, 2012, 03:16:20 AM

Quote from: orfeo on March 24, 2012, 07:18:55 PM
Thanks. I probably won't comment or suggest for any of the ones that you're redoing, because as far as my music collection is currently concerned it seems as if Haydn almost dropped out of the sky and landed in London.

Which irritates me mightily. I'm naturally like that with all composers/musicians, in that if I like them I want to get to know their body of work as a whole. But with Haydn, not only is the imbalance in my collection particularly acute, he's also one of my very favourite composers. I've been trying to scrape together my own rough chronological ideas for various types of works (symphonies, quartets, keyboard sonatas), but it's not easy with all the vague estimates, so it's rather exciting to find someone who's been spending a few years sorting it out as best as it can be sorted.

I've only read the first 6 parts so far, so can you give me a sneak preview and tell me if you later identify the works that WERE published in sets, originally? My completist streak very much likes to know when things actually belonged together, in the composer's mind (at least when arranging publication) and when things have just ended up that way on my CD.

:) Know what you mean. When I first started this thread I had an ad hoc rule that forbade discussion of the London symphonies, at least until the other few thousand works had got a mention. :)

I didn't dwell on the set aspect, although certainly it is there and IIRC, I mentioned it en passant when it came and went. I do have a modest amount of publication history though that I can share. Give me a bit to collect some together. The only genre in which this applies to any great extent will be the string quartets, of course. I can tell you up front that the opuses 1 & 2 were not composed as sets, but were published (on the sly) as arbitrary selections from a pile of single works. In any case, I will get back soon with what I can dig up, and meanwhile, enjoy the remainder and feel free to add anything else you desire. I'm always looking to enhance my own appreciation, too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 25, 2012, 04:37:59 AM

Welcome to the Haus, orfeo!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on March 25, 2012, 05:42:14 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 11, 2012, 06:12:04 PM
Opus 76. My very first Haydn chamber music. My very first string quartets by anybody.

Same here. My first Haydn. My first string quartets. And possibly the first classical music I ever bought for myself.

Naxos cassettes, Kodaly Quartet. I was 16 or 17. Those cassettes got me through most university exam periods. I have the same performances on CD now.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 25, 2012, 05:58:49 AM

My Haydn thought of the day...

One aspect of Haydn's compositions that constantly impress me is when he incorporates a fugue or counterpoint. The pieces that come to mind are the finale to Symphony #40 an #95, also two of the quartets from Op. 20, H III/36 and H III/32...

I feel that the finale of #44 also offers slight glimpses of a fugue...

I'm in search of some more if anyone can help.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ataraxia on March 25, 2012, 06:00:33 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 25, 2012, 04:37:59 AM
Welcome to the Haus, orfeo!

Our Haus, in the middle of our Strasse. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 25, 2012, 06:30:53 AM

By coincidence most curious, I was listening to the d minor quartet from Op.76 on the way in to the MFA, to watch In Search of Haydn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on March 25, 2012, 06:41:16 AM

Welcome Orfeo!

;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 25, 2012, 08:57:15 AM

Quote from: orfeo on March 25, 2012, 05:42:14 AM
Same here. My first Haydn. My first string quartets. And possibly the first classical music I ever bought for myself.

Naxos cassettes, Kodaly Quartet. I was 16 or 17. Those cassettes got me through most university exam periods. I have the same performances on CD now.

Ah, the Kodaly were the second version I got. I like their take on Op 76. My first were the Carmina Quartet on Denon; even today after so many other hearings, I like theirs the best. That imprinting thing... :)

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 25, 2012, 05:58:49 AM
My Haydn thought of the day...

One aspect of Haydn's compositions that constantly impress me is when he incorporates a fugue or counterpoint. The pieces that come to mind are the finale to Symphony #40 an #95, also two of the quartets from Op. 20, H III/36 and H III/32...

I feel that the finale of #44 also offers slight glimpses of a fugue...

I'm in search of some more if anyone can help.

Not sure how you stand on sacred music, Greg, but the 6 late Masses are chock full of splendid fugues. My memory being as lame as it is, I can't list them from the symphonies or quartets OTTOMH, but I can certainly isolate a few for you with time. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on March 25, 2012, 09:44:28 AM

Gurn, if it has been put down on paper, what was Haydn's views on Bach's and Handel's music? And how much of an influence did their works (or any other Baroque big- or little-wig's) have on his later compositions?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 25, 2012, 10:01:37 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on March 25, 2012, 09:44:28 AM
Gurn, if it has been put down on paper, what was Haydn's views on Bach's and Handel's music? And how much of an influence did their works (or any other Baroque big- or little-wig's) have on his later compositions?

Navneeth, AFAIK, there is no mention of Sebastian Bach in any association with Haydn. He was quite partial to Emanuel Bach though. Handel, of course, he had a long relationship with his music from 1791 onwards. Every written comment that I've seen has been very positive, although Haydn wasn't one to say anything negative about another composer. If there is one inference I can make it is that I came away from Landon's book thinking that Haydn may have thought that the English overvalued Handel's music a little. Like in the 3 day festivals, where they wouldn't allow anything other than Handel to be played, he said that there were other worthy composers of that time, and the playing of their music would complement Handel's rather than detract from. But that isn't negative, it's an artistic judgement. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on March 25, 2012, 10:16:41 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 25, 2012, 10:01:37 AM
Navneeth, AFAIK, there is no mention of Sebastian Bach in any association with Haydn.

That's a bit disappointing. Given Haydn's acquaintance with Van Sweiten, one would expect that he might have said something or the other about JSB.

QuoteHe was quite partial to Emanuel Bach though. Handel, of course, he had a long relationship with his music from 1791 onwards. Every written comment that I've seen has been very positive, although Haydn wasn't one to say anything negative about another composer. If there is one inference I can make it is that I came away from Landon's book thinking that Haydn may have thought that the English overvalued Handel's music a little. Like in the 3 day festivals, where they wouldn't allow anything other than Handel to be played, he said that there were other worthy composers of that time, and the playing of their music would complement Handel's rather than detract from. But that isn't negative, it's an artistic judgement. :)

8)

The perfect gentleman, I suppose. :) Self-effacing (and realistic, perhaps) in the way the he didn't necessarily want his music to overthrow Handel's in London.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 25, 2012, 12:52:02 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 24, 2012, 01:20:49 PM
No, but thanks for the info. This series, which started with Mozart and Beethoven, is reputedly outstanding.

Quote from: karlhenning on March 25, 2012, 06:30:53 AM
By coincidence most curious, I was listening to the d minor quartet from Op.76 on the way in to the MFA, to watch In Search of Haydn.

I had seen the earlier In Search of Beethoven, and at the MFA, with my buddy Paul C (harpsichordist on Lunar Glare) . . . and I can affirm that its reputation for excellence is deserved. For that very reason (even if I had not been additionally interested because of my recent application for Haydnista status) I should have made time for In Search of Haydn.

The new film is every bit as good — beautiful to watch, glorious to listen to in all its musical examples (the greater part of which are executed by PI ensembles/instrumentalists), and unflaggingly engaging in the interviews with conductors, performers, and yea, even the occasional historian — as that on Beethoven. (A fact which, incidentally, has me keen to check out his first effort, on Mozart.) If anything, this film had an added poignancy, since "Papa" is not anywhere so well represented on film as his more celebrated pupil (unless there's a cult film out there on Haydn's ~~Wig~~ Hair).

Perforce it had an additional sentimental impact on yours truly, since so many of the musical examples are pieces I've heard for the first time within the past six or nine months — and because it echoed no few historical facts which I learnt first via Gurn's survey, over in da Hause. Visually it was on many points ultimate satisfaction of curiosity which I've nurtured since I was a mere slip of an undergrad, as the director brought his camera to the village of "Papa's" birth, to the Cathedral of St Stephen in Vienna, to the Esterházy compound in Eisenstadt, and particularly to the grounds and some of the rich interiors of Esterháza itself.

In both films, the director (Phil Grabsky) worked with a great sensitivity to the subject, and with an admirable narrative detachment. The project is obviously the result of that combination of general historical interest and musical admiration to which our Gurn is no stranger, yet Grabsky keeps out of the way, and even his extensive use of interviews gives a sense both of academic balance, and of oral history — curious to say, since of course the subject has been dead more than 200 years. But then, of course, to us performers, composers both living and ancient become a sort of partner.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 25, 2012, 01:59:48 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 25, 2012, 08:57:15 AM
Not sure how you stand on sacred music, Greg, but the 6 late Masses are chock full of splendid fugues. My memory being as lame as it is, I can't list them from the symphonies or quartets OTTOMH, but I can certainly isolate a few for you with time. :)
8)

The love Haydn's Stabat Mater and for masses I only have the "Nelson Mass"...but I would definitely be interested in checking out the others with some good recommendations.
Thanks, Gurn. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 25, 2012, 03:01:27 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 25, 2012, 01:59:48 PM
The love Haydn's Stabat Mater and for masses I only have the "Nelson Mass"...but I would definitely be interested in checking out the others with some good recommendations.
Thanks, Gurn. :)

Ah, The Nelson Mass. Well, of course, you would have the one with the least amount of fugal writing! :D There is a nice little short fugue at the end of the Gloria though, and then directly following, the Credo begins with an excellent little strict canon, which you don't hear every day in Classical Era masses. Unusually enough, he even leaves out a couple of fugue possibilities, probably as much to upset the listeners' expectations as for any other reason. :)

If you are looking for the 6 Great Masses, this box is not only excellent, but (at least recently) it is both affordable and readily available.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/51bH1nlDoWL-1.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 25, 2012, 03:05:03 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 25, 2012, 12:52:02 PM
I had seen the earlier In Search of Beethoven, and at the MFA, with my buddy Paul C (harpsichordist on Lunar Glare) . . . and I can affirm that its reputation for excellence is deserved. For that very reason (even if I had not been additionally interested because of my recent application for Haydnista status) I should have made time for In Search of Haydn.

The new film is every bit as good — beautiful to watch, glorious to listen to in all its musical examples (the greater part of which are executed by PI ensembles/instrumentalists), and unflaggingly engaging in the interviews with conductors, performers, and yea, even the occasional historian — as that on Beethoven. (A fact which, incidentally, has me keen to check out his first effort, on Mozart.) If anything, this film had an added poignancy, since "Papa" is not anywhere so well represented on film as his more celebrated pupil (unless there's a cult film out there on Haydn's ~~Wig~~ Hair).

Perforce it had an additional sentimental impact on yours truly, since so many of the musical examples are pieces I've heard for the first time within the past six or nine months — and because it echoed no few historical facts which I learnt first via Gurn's survey, over in da Hause. Visually it was on many points ultimate satisfaction of curiosity which I've nurtured since I was a mere slip of an undergrad, as the director brought his camera to the village of "Papa's" birth, to the Cathedral of St Stephen in Vienna, to the Esterházy compound in Eisenstadt, and particularly to the grounds and some of the rich interiors of Esterháza itself.

In both films, the director (Phil Grabsky) worked with a great sensitivity to the subject, and with an admirable narrative detachment. The project is obviously the result of that combination of general historical interest and musical admiration to which our Gurn is no stranger, yet Grabsky keeps out of the way, and even his extensive use of interviews gives a sense both of academic balance, and of oral history — curious to say, since of course the subject has been dead more than 200 years. But then, of course, to us performers, composers both living and ancient become a sort of partner.

Haydn Lives Upstairs, or even better Immortal Beloved or Infernal Beast? seem like natural successors, Karl. :D

Thanks for the excellent review. It sounds like all I was hoping for. One wonders how this got made without Phil consulting with me... :-\

:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on March 25, 2012, 03:11:44 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 25, 2012, 10:01:37 AM
Navneeth, AFAIK, there is no mention of Sebastian Bach in any association with Haydn.

Geiringer writes that Haydn was an owner of the copy of the Mass in B minor.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 25, 2012, 04:11:29 PM

Quote from: mszczuj on March 25, 2012, 03:11:44 PM
Geiringer writes that Haydn was an owner of the copy of the Mass in B minor.

Thanks, mszczuj. Now I know more. :) Also somewhere, he mentions the WTC, which really is (The Forty-Eight) the bulk of what was remembered of JSB at that time. I just don't remember reading anything about his opinions being expressed, which they were about Handel due to the circumstances. He actually studied Handel's music assiduously, to the point that when he was invited to visit the home of the Prince of Wales, and George III was there, he was able to play a couple of pieces by request since he had already studied them. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 25, 2012, 05:14:26 PM

The other part of Show & Tell:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 25, 2012, 05:19:51 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 25, 2012, 05:14:26 PM
The other part of Show & Tell:

Cool! I like that Beethoven painting, I have it as the wallpaper on my work computer. :) I have heard some very good things about that show, as well as the Mozart one. Nice to have the director acknowledge you. You should have offered him your autograph, Karl! 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 25, 2012, 05:25:01 PM

Heck, I should have suggested that he do a documentary on a living composer. It may happen yet: In Search of Henningmusick

Should tap into the huge, latent Atonal Honking fandom ; )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 25, 2012, 05:34:11 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 25, 2012, 05:25:01 PM
Heck, I should have suggested that he do a documentary on a living composer. It may happen yet: In Search of Henningmusick

Should tap into the huge, latent Atonal Honking fandom ; )

You anticipated me! I think 'latent' is the key word there though, Karl. Perhaps a good docudrama would help transform all that latency into something akin to Haydnmania! :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HogwoodVol01cover-1.jpg)
Academy of Ancient Music; Hogwood - Hob 01_033 Symphony in C 2nd mvmt - Andante

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 25, 2012, 05:39:08 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 25, 2012, 03:01:27 PM
Ah, The Nelson Mass. Well, of course, you would have the one with the least amount of fugal writing! :D There is a nice little short fugue at the end of the Gloria though, and then directly following, the Credo begins with an excellent little strict canon, which you don't hear every day in Classical Era masses. Unusually enough, he even leaves out a couple of fugue possibilities, probably as much to upset the listeners' expectations as for any other reason. :)

If you are looking for the 6 Great Masses, this box is not only excellent, but (at least recently) it is both affordable and readily available.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/51bH1nlDoWL-1.jpg)

8)

I've seen this set before here in the forums, it's about time I grab it....thanks for the info, Gurn. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 25, 2012, 05:43:40 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 25, 2012, 05:39:08 PM

I've seen this set before here in the forums, it's about time I grab it....thanks for the info, Gurn. :)

My pleasure. I know you will enjoy it; great performances of great music, a can't-miss proposition! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 25, 2012, 05:56:13 PM

Hmm, gotta revisit those masses . . . there was a brief taste from the Missa in tempore belli in the film this morning . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 25, 2012, 06:06:07 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 25, 2012, 03:01:27 PM
Ah, The Nelson Mass. Well, of course, you would have the one with the least amount of fugal writing! :D There is a nice little short fugue at the end of the Gloria though, and then directly following, the Credo begins with an excellent little strict canon, which you don't hear every day in Classical Era masses. Unusually enough, he even leaves out a couple of fugue possibilities, probably as much to upset the listeners' expectations as for any other reason. :)

If you are looking for the 6 Great Masses, this box is not only excellent, but (at least recently) it is both affordable and readily available.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/51bH1nlDoWL-1.jpg)

8)

Oh, this wicked Haus! Not too wicked though, this is very nicely priced, indeed.

And I see that has the Salve Regina.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 25, 2012, 06:08:00 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 25, 2012, 05:56:13 PM
Hmm, gotta revisit those masses . . . there was a brief taste from the Missa in tempore belli in the film this morning . . . .

That's a good'un! I really like that little obligatto cello part in the 'Qui tollis peccata mundi' part of the Gloria. And the minor mode (quite unexpected) in the Benedictus. This was written the same year as the Nelson Mass, they had to have been back-to-back, in fact, and yet each has its own distinct character. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 25, 2012, 06:09:42 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 25, 2012, 06:06:07 PM
Oh, this wicked Haus! Not too wicked though, this is very nicely priced, indeed.

And I see that has the Salve Regina.

0:) I haven't checked it in a while now, but last summer it was going for less than $20, a bargain in anyone's book! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 25, 2012, 06:12:19 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 25, 2012, 06:09:42 PM
0:) I haven't checked it in a while now, but last summer it was going for less than $20, a bargain in anyone's book! :)

8)

Yes, when I saw that price-point, I was corn unto Haydn's sickle.

Also set me up to pull the trigger on Harnoncourt's recording of the Stabat Mater.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on March 25, 2012, 06:15:23 PM

I've not seen any of the 'In Search Of' movies. I have, though, seen a couple of film reviews of the Haydn one that were fairly faint with their praise. The reviewers were of course film buffs rather than Haydn fans, but much of their criticism came down to the filmmakers failing to compensate for Haydn not having led the kind of exciting, dramatic life that Beethoven or Mozart supplied for the previous films.

I guess it's a lot harder to make a documentary about someone who was basically a nice chap that everyone got one with extremely well and who stayed happily employed in one spot for a couple of decades.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 25, 2012, 06:16:37 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 25, 2012, 06:12:19 PM
Yes, when I saw that price-point, I was corn unto Haydn's sickle.

Also set me up to pull the trigger on Harnoncourt's recording of the Stabat Mater.

Ah yes, I see you were a victim (yet again) of friendly fire at AMP... :D :D I'm pretty shot up myself... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 25, 2012, 06:17:24 PM

Quote from: orfeo on March 25, 2012, 06:15:23 PM
I've not seen any of the 'In Search Of' movies. I have, though, seen a couple of film reviews of the Haydn one that were fairly faint with their praise. The reviewers were of course film buffs rather than Haydn fans, but much of their criticism came down to the filmmakers failing to compensate for Haydn not having led the kind of exciting, dramatic life that Beethoven or Mozart supplied for the previous films.

I guess it's a lot harder to make a documentary about someone who was basically a nice chap that everyone got one with extremely well and who stayed happily employed in one spot for a couple of decades.

Well, if their beef with it is, as you suggest, that his life doesn't make so smashing a film as The Spanish Inquisition . . . they've got to get over it ; )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 25, 2012, 06:18:02 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 25, 2012, 06:16:37 PM
Ah yes, I see you were a victim (yet again) of friendly fire at AMP... :D :D I'm pretty shot up myself... :-\

8)

Aye, just so : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 25, 2012, 06:21:28 PM

Quote from: orfeo on March 25, 2012, 06:15:23 PM
I've not seen any of the 'In Search Of' movies. I have, though, seen a couple of film reviews of the Haydn one that were fairly faint with their praise. The reviewers were of course film buffs rather than Haydn fans, but much of their criticism came down to the filmmakers failing to compensate for Haydn not having led the kind of exciting, dramatic life that Beethoven or Mozart supplied for the previous films.

I guess it's a lot harder to make a documentary about someone who was basically a nice chap that everyone got one with extremely well and who stayed happily employed in one spot for a couple of decades.

Well, this has been Haydn's albatross even since he was still alive, and greatly more so since his death. He didn't suffer enough for the Romantics, for example. And he was too much a lackey to the upper classes for the emerging proletariat. Totally overlooking the fact, of course, that he rose from being the son of the village wheelwright who only got to learn how to read because he could sing nicely, and rose to the point where he was invited to dinner with the King of England! And this by dint of hard work rather than sucking up. >:(

You make a good point about the reviewers. They are looking for excitement. They should go to Afghanistan... >:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 26, 2012, 06:28:22 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 25, 2012, 03:01:27 PM
If you are looking for the 6 Great Masses, this box is not only excellent, but (at least recently) it is both affordable and readily available.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/51bH1nlDoWL-1.jpg)

The Nelson Mass from that box produced a first in the Rock house a few weeks ago. I had just put it on, was blasting the Kyrie, when Mrs. Rock arrived home from work. She said, "That's pretty exciting....what is it?"

"Haydn," says I.

"No!" says she, dumbfounded. "Well, I like it anyway." ;D

She's not a fan of the Classical era. She likes some Beethoven. Likes some minor key Mozart. But Haydn she dislikes intensely. So, this was something of a breakthrough. The first time in 35 years she has happily listened to Haydn :D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 26, 2012, 06:43:49 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 26, 2012, 06:28:22 AM
The Nelson Mass from that box produced a first in the Rock house a few weeks ago. I had just put it on, was blasting the Kyrie, when Mrs. Rock arrived home from work. She said, "That's pretty exciting....what is it?"

"Haydn," says I.

"No!" says she, dumbfounded. "Well, I like it anyway." ;D

She's not a fan of the Classical era. She likes some Beethoven. Likes some minor key Mozart. But Haydn she dislikes intensely. So, this was something of a breakthrough. The first time in 35 years she has happily listened to Haydn :D

Sarge

How cool is that!?! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 26, 2012, 06:46:01 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 25, 2012, 06:06:07 PM
Oh, this wicked Haus! Not too wicked though, this is very nicely priced, indeed.

That box would be worth it at three times the price. Brilliant performances. I'm usually very allergic to boy choirs but the Tölzers make such a thrilling noise I'm not put off. And, thank god and Bruno Weil, adult soloists are employed.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 26, 2012, 06:46:31 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 26, 2012, 06:28:22 AM
The Nelson Mass from that box produced a first in the Rock house a few weeks ago. I had just put it on, was blasting the Kyrie, when Mrs. Rock arrived home from work. She said, "That's pretty exciting....what is it?"

"Haydn," says I.

"No!" says she, dumbfounded. "Well, I like it anyway." ;D

She's not a fan of the Classical era. She likes some Beethoven. Likes some minor key Mozart. But Haydn she dislikes intensely. So, this was something of a breakthrough. The first time in 35 years she has happily listened to Haydn :D

Sarge

Brilliant! Play it again! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 26, 2012, 06:48:28 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 26, 2012, 06:43:49 AM
How cool is that!?! :D

8)

Gurn, your long patient labor is bearing excellent fruit.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 26, 2012, 06:46:01 AM
That box would be worth it at three times the price. Brilliant performances. I'm usually very allergic to boy choirs but the Tölzers make such a thrilling noise I'm not put off. And, thank god and Bruno Weil, adult soloists are employed.

Sarge

Excellent to hear, Sarge!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on March 26, 2012, 06:49:04 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 26, 2012, 06:28:22 AM
But Haydn she dislikes intensely.

How is that even possible? ???

In any case, congrats on the breakthrough! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 26, 2012, 07:15:04 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on March 26, 2012, 06:46:31 AM
Brilliant! Play it again! :)

It's playing right now, actually. Mrs. Rock should be home in about 20 minutes. I may repeat it...or try the Paukenmesse to see if she responds positively to that one too.

Quote from: Opus106 on March 26, 2012, 06:49:04 AM
How is that even possible? ???

She claims Haydn is too happy ;D It's hard to argue with that opinion--although, of course, Haydn has his darker moments too. Her favorite music tends to be dark and tragic, or somber, or romantically passionate: the Herrmann Symphony,Tchaikovsky Manfred, Dvorak 7, Brahms 4 and the Requiem, Prokofiev 7 and R & J, Puccini Turandot, Verdi Macbeth and the Requiem, Sibelius 1 & 3 & Kullervo, Weber Freischutz (especially the Wolf Glen scene), Beethoven 7. She likes the Medieval and Baroque eras. She thinks Bach is the greatest composer. Although she's not attuned to the atonal, she likes much of the 20th century's music.

I've been trying for 35 years to make her understand the Classical language but so far without much success. I played a mini-Haydn marathon recently, concentrating on the Sturm und Drang symphonies but even those works, which logically should have appealed to her sense of dark drama, failed to move her. She thanked me profusely after I switched to another composer ;D

I have to say, though, she's a trooper: she just grits her teeth and bears it whenever I play Haydn. She doesn't complain...until its over :D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on March 26, 2012, 07:33:58 AM

A truly commendable effort, Sarge. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 26, 2012, 07:36:43 AM

The sound samples suggested a light-tread-MI recording, so I've pulled the trigger on the Naxos issue of Die Jahreszeiten. And this revisitation to the Masses is paying off, in a musico-spiritual way . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 26, 2012, 07:39:40 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 26, 2012, 07:15:04 AM
She claims Haydn is too happy ;D

Got to commend her honesty! I don't think I ever considered the matter with such clarity . . . but as we've found with discussion of the Grabsky In Search of ... films, the drama of Mozart and Beethoven is an easier sell.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 26, 2012, 07:49:17 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 26, 2012, 07:39:40 AM....the drama of Mozart and Beethoven is an easier sell.

Indeed. And Mrs. Rock is the poster child for that.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 26, 2012, 07:54:46 AM

Telling them, When they did his portraits, he had them paint out the nose polyp just doesn't have the same cachet . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on March 26, 2012, 08:21:18 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 26, 2012, 07:15:04 AM
She claims Haydn is too happy ;D It's hard to argue with that opinion

You can tell that it (I mean his music) is so happy for the sake of being complicated. It is just impossible to being so complicated without being happy.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 26, 2012, 08:54:46 AM

Just a wee dacha for a change of scenery from the Haus . . . . (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20258.0.html)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 27, 2012, 07:19:13 AM

Well, no surprise, really: Having viewed In Search of "Papa" has primed me for keen appreciation of the Masses. No idea why they didn't 'click' for me earlier . . . but life's like that, isn't it?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 28, 2012, 05:29:58 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 25, 2012, 06:30:53 AM
By coincidence most curious, I was listening to the d minor quartet from Op.76 on the way in to the MFA, to watch In Search of Haydn.

The movie is so good, I snagged a DVD of In Search of Haydn. I've not yet [re-]watched it, though I am keen to (busy week, natch). One bit which was nice to watch was a performance of the ending of the Farewell Symphony, with the players gradually leaving the stage. The DVD's extras are complete movements from which bits in the finally-edited film were derived . . . I'm hoping this symphony movement is among those.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 28, 2012, 05:40:03 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 28, 2012, 05:29:58 AM
The movie is so good, I snagged a DVD of In Search of Haydn. I've not yet [re-]watched it, though I am keen to (busy week, natch). One bit which was nice to watch was a performance of the ending of the Farewell Symphony, with the players gradually leaving the stage. The DVD's extras are complete movements from which bits in the finally-edited film were derived . . . I'm hoping this symphony movement is among those.

I can hardly wait to see that, Karl. Even without the dramatic tension this has promise! :D You know, Haydn actually had an abundance of the traits which movie-makers and critics should love; he was damn near a rake, and his financial dealings with publishers would have made Beethoven blush. Funny, Mozart had an unearned reputation as the first of those things, and Beethoven for the second, yet Haydn actually did both in spades and gets no credit for it. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 28, 2012, 05:55:48 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 28, 2012, 05:40:03 AM
I can hardly wait to see that, Karl. Even without the dramatic tension this has promise! :D You know, Haydn actually had an abundance of the traits which movie-makers and critics should love; he was damn near a rake, and his financial dealings with publishers would have made Beethoven blush. Funny, Mozart had an unearned reputation as the first of those things . . . .

I wasn't there, and couldn't say for certain, of course; but meseems that it is possible, simply, that Mozart was completely faithful to Constanze. I cannot figure why there are so many people who are eager to disbelieve that . . . .

Grabsky references some juicy bits of Haydn's correspondence, BTW.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 28, 2012, 06:05:52 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 28, 2012, 05:55:48 AM
I wasn't there, and couldn't say for certain, of course; but meseems that it is possible, simply, that Mozart was completely faithful to Constanze. I cannot figure why there are so many people who are eager to disbelieve that . . . .

Grabsky references some juicy bits of Haydn's correspondence, BTW.

I have never seen even 1 bit of documentary evidence that Mozart was anything but a faithful husband. I think those rumors started early times, when the Romantic Generation felt that Constanze was undeserving of a genius husband and that for that reason, he surely couldn't have possibly really loved her or been happy married to her, so he must have played around. Yet every available document oozes his complete happiness being married, and to her.

Well, there are certainly some juicy bits to reference. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 28, 2012, 06:07:25 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 28, 2012, 06:05:52 AM
I have never seen even 1 bit of documentary evidence that Mozart was anything but a faithful husband. I think those rumors started early times, when the Romantic Generation felt that Constanze was undeserving of a genius husband and that for that reason, he surely couldn't have possibly really loved her or been happy married to her, so he must have played around.

It was only a later generation which was to be shocked at the revelation that it was really Constanze who wrote all that music . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 28, 2012, 06:11:27 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 28, 2012, 06:07:25 AM
It was only a later generation which was to be shocked at the revelation that it was really Constanze who wrote all that music . . . .

Newman! :D

But really, the implication that only a genius wife would have been suitable for him is ludicrous! Can you imagine what life would have been like? :o :o Actually, the more that I have read about the philosophy of the Romantics, the more repelled I am by it. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 28, 2012, 06:15:08 AM

Well, I have a wife of artistic genius, so I don't need to imagine it : ) I rather like it; but Mozart mightn't have . . . maybe Haydn would not have . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on March 28, 2012, 06:22:33 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 28, 2012, 06:11:27 AM
Newman! :D

But really, the implication that only a genius wife would have been suitable for him is ludicrous! Can you imagine what life would have been like? :o :o Actually, the more that I have read about the philosophy of the Romantics, the more repelled I am by it. :-\

8)

Never wandered lonely as a cloud? or swum the Hellespont? :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on March 28, 2012, 06:39:15 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 28, 2012, 05:40:03 AM
[Haydn] was damn near a rake...

Somehow I never got that impression from you series, Gurn. Did you not emphasise the quality much or was it me who didn't read between the lines? ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 28, 2012, 07:05:33 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on March 28, 2012, 06:22:33 AM
Never wandered lonely as a cloud? or swum the Hellespont? :D

No. Freakin' loonies. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 28, 2012, 07:12:17 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on March 28, 2012, 06:39:15 AM
Somehow I never got that impression from you series, Gurn. Did you not emphasise the quality much or was it me who didn't read between the lines? ;)

No, I didn't really emphasize it at all. In some cases I would suspect that it is much like Mozart's situation; intimations without proof. But OTTOMH, Polzelli & Schröter for sure, and Genziger possibly, and some of the singers at Esterháza probably; he told Dies that 'for some reason, women have always loved me, I don't understand why...'. Since he got married in 1759 (IIRC), this was all extramarital. I just didn't want to sidetrack the story. I also didn't talk much about how he screwed the publishers, since I felt like it was ample payback for how they screwed him. Music publishing was a dirty and devious business back in those days. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 28, 2012, 07:14:03 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 28, 2012, 06:15:08 AM
Well, I have a wife of artistic genius, so I don't need to imagine it : ) I rather like it; but Mozart mightn't have . . . maybe Haydn would not have . . . .

The implication I have read has always been that she wasn't intellectually capable of understanding his music, though. Despite the fact that she was a trained (and good) singer, for example. It was misogyny at its finest, actually. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 28, 2012, 07:32:26 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 28, 2012, 07:12:17 AM
No, I didn't really emphasize it at all. In some cases I would suspect that it is much like Mozart's situation; intimations without proof. But OTTOMH, Polzelli & Schröter for sure, and Genziger possibly, and some of the singers at Esterháza probably; he told Dies that 'for some reason, women have always loved me, I don't understand why...'. Since he got married in 1759 (IIRC), this was all extramarital. I just didn't want to sidetrack the story.. . . .

Emphasis mine (but you knew that). Your chronology is rich as it stands, Gurn, and I appreciate that you didn't go heavy on the sidebars.

Along those lines, as long a career and as deep a catalogue of compositions as were Haydn's, how do you keep a film to a 90-minute feature? Two things (or, either of the two) which Grabsky would have liked to include, only no such performance seemed to emerge during the time of production: a fully staged opera, or a full performance of a Mass.

Another thing missing, though I cannot at all faut him (can't do everything in such a timeframe) is: the baryton.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on March 28, 2012, 07:45:53 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 28, 2012, 07:12:17 AM
No, I didn't really emphasize it at all. In some cases I would suspect that it is much like Mozart's situation; intimations without proof. ... I just didn't want to sidetrack the story. I also didn't talk much about how he screwed the publishers, since I felt like it was ample payback for how they screwed him. Music publishing was a dirty and devious business back in those days.

We are the happier for those decisions. Music publishing still is, btw.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 28, 2012, 07:59:14 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 28, 2012, 07:32:26 AM

Along those lines, as long a career and as deep a catalogue of compositions as were Haydn's, how do you keep a film to a 90-minute feature? Two things (or, either of the two) which Grabsky would have liked to include, only no such performance seemed to emerge during the time of production: a fully staged opera, or a full performance of a Mass.

Another thing missing, though I cannot at all fault him (can't do everything in such a timeframe) is: the baryton.[/font]

There are a couple of excellent DVD's of full operas too;

[asin]B002XG8KOW[/asin]

which is Jacobs & Co.

and this one;

[asin]B00408MS9O[/asin]

which is Harnoncourt. I want to get them, I haven't paid enough attention to things on DVD yet, only CD's so far. :-\

A baryton performance would have been an outstanding adjunct! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 28, 2012, 08:00:29 AM

Quote from: Philippe de Vitry on March 28, 2012, 07:45:53 AM
We are the happier for those decisions. Music publishing still is, btw.

:)

I have heard that. Some things never change. I know that they have done very little to make ME happy... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 28, 2012, 11:21:23 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on February 25, 2012, 08:41:59 AM
1801
Hob 21_03 Oratorio "The Seasons"
English Baroque Soloists / Gardiner Monteverdi Choir
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnGardinerTheSeasonscover.jpg)

Sung in which language, O Gurn? Or is this work solamente in tedesca . . . ?)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 28, 2012, 11:24:57 AM

Speaking of The Seasons, The Grant Park Orchestra is performing the piece this summer, if you're around the Chicago area, the concerts are free and the orchestra is top-notch with musicians form all over the country.

Haydn: The Seasons
Rich with evocations of the natural world, Haydn's ebullient oratorio conjures up festive wine parties, thunderstorms, hunting expeditions, peasant dances, and a stirring ode to labor.

WHEN: Friday, August 10, 2012, 6:30pm; Saturday, August 11, 2012, 7:30pm
WHERE: Jay Pritzker Pavilion
WHO: Grant Park Orchestra And Chorus
Carlos Kalmar, Conductor
Layla Claire, Soprano
Benjamin Butterfield, Tenor
Ben Wager, Bass

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 28, 2012, 11:27:47 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 28, 2012, 11:21:23 AM
Sung in which language, O Gurn? Or is this work solamente in tedesca . . . ?)

Sí, amigo mío, es sólo en alemán.

That's a nice version though... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 28, 2012, 11:29:06 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 28, 2012, 11:24:57 AM
Speaking of The Seasons, The Grant Park Orchestra is performing the piece this summer, if you're around the Chicago area, the concerts are free and the orchestra is top-notch with musicians form all over the country.

Haydn: The Seasons
Rich with evocations of the natural world, Haydn's ebullient oratorio conjures up festive wine parties, thunderstorms, hunting expeditions, peasant dances, and a stirring ode to labor.

WHEN: Friday, August 10, 2012, 6:30pm; Saturday, August 11, 2012, 7:30pm
WHERE: Jay Pritzker Pavilion
WHO: Grant Park Orchestra And Chorus
Carlos Kalmar, Conductor
Layla Claire, Soprano
Benjamin Butterfield, Tenor
Ben Wager, Bass

Cool, I'd go... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 28, 2012, 11:40:48 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 28, 2012, 11:27:47 AM
Sí, amigo mío, es sólo en alemán.

That's a nice version though... :)

8)

Bene. Found a good cheap copy . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 28, 2012, 11:43:38 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 28, 2012, 11:40:48 AM
Bene. Found a good cheap copy . . . .

I have that one, Karl, along with the Kuijken.
Gardiner is better.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on March 28, 2012, 11:51:32 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 28, 2012, 11:27:47 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on March 28, 2012, 11:21:23 AM
Quote(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnGardinerTheSeasonscover.jpg)
Sung in which language, O Gurn? Or is this work solamente in tedesca . . . ?)
Sí, amigo mío, es sólo en alemán.

Not. so. fast!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516bBpHJZBL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Mister Haydn
The (very English) Seasons
Sir Thomas Beecham / Royal Phil.
EMI (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002XV2ZW/goodmusicguide-20)

Incidentally, I think Rene Jacobs' recording of this is one head, two shoulders above the competition.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51zojdv%2BZJL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Herr Haydn
The (perfectly German) Seasons
Rene Jacobs / Freiburg BO
HM (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001CCHPKS/goodmusicguide-20)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 28, 2012, 12:21:22 PM

Quote from: jlaurson on March 28, 2012, 11:51:32 AM
Sung in which language, O Gurn? Or is this work solamente in tedesca . . . ?)

Sí, amigo mío, es sólo en alemán.

Not. so. fast!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516bBpHJZBL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Mister Haydn
The (very English) Seasons
Sir Thomas Beecham / Royal Phil.
EMI (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002XV2ZW/goodmusicguide-20)

Incidentally, I think Rene Jacobs' recording of this is one head, two shoulders above the competition.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51zojdv%2BZJL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)
Herr Haydn
The (perfectly German) Seasons
Rene Jacobs / Freiburg BO
HM (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001CCHPKS/goodmusicguide-20)

Well, there are Italian and French versions of The Creation, too, but Haydn didn't really have anything to do with that. He only did a German "Seasons", which is what I meant. That's interesting though. :)

I've been looking at that Jacobs 'Seasons', hadn't pulled the trigger yet though. I reckon I ought to. I like Kuijken's version, very low key it is. Which isn't a bad thing. I kind of feel differently about 'The Seasons' than 'The Creation'; bigger is better with Creation, but with the Seasons, not so much. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on March 28, 2012, 12:53:00 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 28, 2012, 12:21:22 PM
Well, there are Italian and French versions of The Creation, too, but Haydn didn't really have anything to do with that. He only did a German "Seasons", which is what I meant. That's interesting though. :)

I've been looking at that Jacobs 'Seasons', hadn't pulled the trigger yet though. I reckon I ought to. I like Kuijken's version, very low key it is. Which isn't a bad thing. I kind of feel differently about 'The Seasons' than 'The Creation'; bigger is better with Creation, but with the Seasons, not so much. :)

Yes, I knew what you meant. But there are no other recordings of The Creation in other languages? And Haydn and England/English is of course a special connection. Not just because the Creation is originally in English, or because of the Haydn reception and his career's autumn there, but because the Seasons is based on an English poem/text.

Anywho... Seasons is very different from Creation... more 'difficult', 'smaller'. And it's that curious character that Jacobs really hones in on, which makes the relative advantage of this Haydn recording so much greater than that of any other Jacobs-Haydn recordings. If I only were allowed two Jacobs recordings, it would be this, and his Cosi.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 28, 2012, 01:00:36 PM

Quote from: jlaurson on March 28, 2012, 12:53:00 PM
Yes, I knew what you meant. But there are no other recordings of The Creation in other languages? And Haydn and England/English is of course a special connection. Not just because the Creation is originally in English, or because of the Haydn reception and his career's autumn there, but because the Seasons is based on an English poem/text.

Not sure if you are asking me or telling me. :) I haven't seen any, but there are performances of it in French, Italian and Russian that I know of, and in fact they were done first while Haydn was still living. Not sure about recordings though, I would be curious to hear one. :)

QuoteAnywho... Seasons is very different from Creation... more 'difficult', 'smaller'. And it's that curious character that Jacobs really hones in on, which makes the relative advantage of this Haydn recording so much greater than that of any other Jacobs-Haydn recordings. If I only were allowed two Jacobs recordings, it would be this, and his Cosi.

Yes, despite reading what I could find on this oratorio, I still come away feeling that I am missing something vital about it. But that is why I like the Kuijken recording, it has a 'chamber'y' feel to it that appeals. Apparently, one can scarcely acquire Jacobs' recording any longer. Personally, I have liked everything that group have done together, especially Mozart's operas. I'll definitely keep my eyes open for a copy of this disk. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 28, 2012, 01:19:16 PM

Jens's answer fits my query, although Gurn twigged what I was after.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on March 28, 2012, 01:57:23 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 28, 2012, 01:00:36 PM

Not sure if you are asking me or telling me. :) I haven't seen any, but there are performances of it in French, Italian and Russian that I know of, and in fact they were done first while Haydn was still living. Not sure about recordings though, I would be curious to hear one. :)

asking--and presuming. about recordings, not performances, though.
after hearing Isolde's Liebestod in Italian, I realized why curiosity has on occasion led to feline demise.

Then again, there are surprising incidences where the non-original language leads to really neat results. I very much enjoy Goodall's Wagner in English. Or some of those Mackerras recordings for Chandos' "Opera in English" series. Like his Cosi. And that, even though I don't think English is all that suitable a language to sing in, for classical music. (Less so than you would think, at least, with most popular music today being done in English, no matter its pedigree.) I've come rather off that absurd high horse that esp. lighter operas ought to be done in the original language, always. Sure, super- and MET-titles are nice... but understanding what the hell is going on on stage is nicer, still. Die Fledermaus, in fact, is one piece that I think should never be done in anything but the vernacular.

Quote
Yes, despite reading what I could find on this oratorio, I still come away feeling that I am missing something vital about it. But that is why I like the Kuijken recording, it has a 'chamber'y' feel to it that appeals. Apparently, one can scarcely acquire Jacobs' recording any longer. Personally, I have liked everything that group have done together, especially Mozart's operas. I'll definitely keep my eyes open for a copy of this disk. :)

Indeed, both versions seem to be oop. I don't know if you do "Third Party" sellers, but the original issue can be had for a reasonable price in Germany (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002QO4GI/goodmusicguide-21) and France (http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002QO4GI/goodmusicguideFR-21) -- and the Haydn Anniversary box is said to be only temporarily out of stock on Amazon.com (link above). But I doubt HM will let that recording languish out of print for long. It's just that some of those re-issues esp. of Jacobs opera recordings seem to trample on their own feet, sometimes... That marvel of a Cosi was variously available and unavailable in three different editions, I remember.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 28, 2012, 04:20:01 PM

Quote from: jlaurson on March 28, 2012, 01:57:23 PM
asking--and presuming. about recordings, not performances, though.
after hearing Isolde's Liebestod in Italian, I realized why curiosity has on occasion led to feline demise.

Well, I can't say one has never been done, only that I've never seen or heard of any.

QuoteThen again, there are surprising incidences where the non-original language leads to really neat results. I very much enjoy Goodall's Wagner in English. Or some of those Mackerras recordings for Chandos' "Opera in English" series. Like his Cosi. And that, even though I don't think English is all that suitable a language to sing in, for classical music. (Less so than you would think, at least, with most popular music today being done in English, no matter its pedigree.) I've come rather off that absurd high horse that esp. lighter operas ought to be done in the original language, always. Sure, super- and MET-titles are nice... but understanding what the hell is going on on stage is nicer, still. Die Fledermaus, in fact, is one piece that I think should never be done in anything but the vernacular.

Indeed, both versions seem to be oop. I don't know if you do "Third Party" sellers, but the original issue can be had for a reasonable price in Germany (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002QO4GI/goodmusicguide-21) and France (http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0002QO4GI/goodmusicguideFR-21) -- and the Haydn Anniversary box is said to be only temporarily out of stock on Amazon.com (link above). But I doubt HM will let that recording languish out of print for long. It's just that some of those re-issues esp. of Jacobs opera recordings seem to trample on their own feet, sometimes... That marvel of a Cosi was variously available and unavailable in three different editions, I remember.

Well, I have discovered, much to my chagrin, that most of the time I can't understand the words no matter the language. This unfortunate hearing problem may well be at the root of my preference for instrumental music (which I don't have a particular issue with) over vocal (which is a laborious process for me).

I will keep my eyes open for something available. Someone earlier was mentioning music publishers in a rather negative sort of way, and this sort of thing (despite not being a 'print' issue) is just what irritates me about them. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 28, 2012, 05:54:48 PM

Well, after a short hiatus for mentally recharging, I have resumed my editing and updating of the earliest essays in the Haydn chronology series. Here is the link to Part 6 - 1757 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg574523.html#msg574523). I hope you enjoy it, and anything you want to add, or talk about, I am as interested in discussion as ever. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on March 29, 2012, 02:20:20 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 28, 2012, 04:20:01 PM
Well, I have discovered, much to my chagrin, that most of the time I can't understand the words no matter the language. This unfortunate hearing problem may well be at the root of my preference for instrumental music (which I don't have a particular issue with) over vocal (which is a laborious process for me).

That's interesting. I generally don't understand the words either, yet I very much like vocal music. Voice-as-instrument I guess.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on March 29, 2012, 02:29:57 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 28, 2012, 05:54:48 PM
Well, after a short hiatus for mentally recharging, I have resumed my editing and updating of the earliest essays in the Haydn chronology series. Here is the link to Part 6 - 1757 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg574523.html#msg574523). I hope you enjoy it, and anything you want to add, or talk about, I am as interested in discussion as ever. :)

I used to go to a lot of operas, before the super-title times, and not even care that I didn't understand a lick.
Sometimes I knew the gist of what was going on, occasionally I fumbled in the little yellow libretto book I would have bought for a few quid along with the program (for another few quid).

Opera as a musical, not theatrical experience. But one really only gets 50% or less of the sum of the parts. There are still operas where I think not understanding the text is a benefit. limpid, ludicrous libretti, stupid stories, preposterous plots... but the great operas are worth being taken as a whole. I can't be moved to tears by the music of Don Giovanni alone. But I can be reduced to a sobbing piece of mess given the right production knowing the drama. Or laugh riotously during a Cosi. (Not that it's that funny a piece -- and for the longest time I would have included that among the "better not hear what's going on" operas.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 29, 2012, 02:32:41 AM

Not sure "limpid" is the word you want there, Jens; but it doesn't mar your message.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 29, 2012, 04:15:18 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on March 29, 2012, 02:29:57 AM
I used to go to a lot of operas, before the super-title times, and not even care that I didn't understand a lick.
Sometimes I knew the gist of what was going on, occasionally I fumbled in the little yellow libretto book I would have bought for a few quid along with the program (for another few quid).

Opera as a musical, not theatrical experience. But one really only gets 50% or less of the sum of the parts. There are still operas where I think not understanding the text is a benefit. limpid, ludicrous libretti, stupid stories, preposterous plots... but the great operas are worth being taken as a whole. I can't be moved to tears by the music of Don Giovanni alone. But I can be reduced to a sobbing piece of mess given the right production knowing the drama. Or laugh riotously during a Cosi. (Not that it's that funny a piece -- and for the longest time I would have included that among the "better not hear what's going on" operas.)

It's interesting to me that I'm not the only one in that boat. You read about operas and it seems like a given that every opera-goer is fluent in early Italian/German/French, whatever. I try to prepare, when possible, for listening by reading (ideally) a translation of the libretto, or lacking that, a good synopsis of the plot by scene. After that, it seems to be sufficient for my purposes to know that at this point in the story, the father is berating the heroine for being a tramp and she's fixing to stab herself and sing a couple of songs as she lays on the floor bleeding out. I can always enjoy the musical aspect of that, and sometimes also enjoy the bleeding out part, depending on the heroine. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 29, 2012, 04:18:00 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 28, 2012, 05:54:48 PM
Well, after a short hiatus for mentally recharging, I have resumed my editing and updating of the earliest essays in the Haydn chronology series. Here is the link to Part 6 - 1757 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg574523.html#msg574523). I hope you enjoy it, and anything you want to add, or talk about, I am as interested in discussion as ever. :)

8)

Just an orthographic note. Divertimento á tre . . . in Italian, no accent on a there (unless there's some antic practice whereof I am unaware, which assuredly happeneth). If 'twere French, it would be an accent grave (à trois), not accent aigu.

I empathize completely with the confusion. The French accents I learnt and internalized when in jr hgh and high school. And then it "de-internalized" over a decade of lack of use . . . and ever since, I need to double-check myself . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 29, 2012, 04:34:02 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 29, 2012, 04:18:00 AM
Just an orthographic note. Divertimento á tre . . . in Italian, no accent on a there (unless there's some antic practice whereof I am unaware, which assuredly happeneth). If 'twere French, it would be an accent grave (à trois), not accent aigu.

I empathize completely with the confusion. The French accents I learnt and internalized when in jr hgh and high school. And then it "de-internalized" over a decade of lack of use . . . and ever since, I need to double-check myself . . . .

I just copied it off the liner notes, Karl, which purport to be copied from the original manuscripts. It may be that the usages were different then, or that Haydn was unaware of correct usage. As an example of that time, Mozart used to spell his name Amadé, Amadè and Amade (only once "Amadeus"). So one can't know what is right based on a model... :-\

8)

PS - Delighted that you re-read the update though!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 29, 2012, 04:41:05 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on November 05, 2011, 07:57:00 AM
The first symphonies are here, the first symphonies are here!!! If you haven't listened to them, then on your first listen please tell me if I'm the only one who felt that they were recognizably Haydn. This seems to have been an arena in which his unique voice could be heard right from the start.

BTW, I think I am apt to have said before . . . but possibly not here in da Haus, much the same thing: here in the very first symphonies we already hear Haydn's ripe, assured musical intelligence and voice. Not the heights which he will later scale, but there is nothing tentative about these symphonies. (I'm remembering what I thought back when I first started my survey . . . sure, it is high time I go back and listen anew . . . .)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 29, 2012, 04:42:32 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 29, 2012, 04:34:02 AM
I just copied it off the liner notes, Karl, which purport to be copied from the original manuscripts. It may be that the usages were different then, or that Haydn was unaware of correct usage. As an example of that time, Mozart used to spell his name Amadé, Amadè and Amade (only once "Amadeus"). So one can't know what is right based on a model... :-\

8)

Ho capito! The shadow of e'en such a possibility was lurking in a back synapse of the Henning brain, somewhere . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 29, 2012, 04:44:12 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 29, 2012, 04:34:02 AM
PS - Delighted that you re-read the update though!

A pleasure! You might add a [sic] somewhere, then, the better thine honour to guard.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 29, 2012, 04:50:02 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 29, 2012, 04:41:05 AM
BTW, I think I am apt to have said before . . . but possibly not here in da Haus, much the same thing: here in the very first symphonies we already hear Haydn's ripe, assured musical intelligence and voice. Not the heights which he will later scale, but there is nothing tentative about these symphonies. (I'm remembering what I thought back when I first started my survey . . . sure, it is high time I go back and listen anew . . . .)

Well, that's just what I thought myself. My first early symphonies were the "Morning, Noon & Night" disk by Dorati, oh, so long ago! And the first time I spun it my thought was "this can't really be from 1761!". To me they just had that distinctive Haydn Sound. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 29, 2012, 04:51:44 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 29, 2012, 04:42:32 AM
Ho capito! The shadow of e'en such a possibility was lurking in a back synapse of the Henning brain, somewhere . . . .

From everything I read from that time, spelling and grammar rules were so inconsistent as to be non-existent. Even being a specialist can't be of much help in some cases. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 29, 2012, 04:54:07 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 29, 2012, 04:44:12 AM
A pleasure! You might add a [sic] somewhere, then, the better thine honour to guard.

:) Oh, I don't mind provoking japery with my rube-ish ways. Hell, I barely have English down yet (beyond the more colorful phrases, of course). :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 29, 2012, 05:19:57 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 29, 2012, 04:50:02 AM
Well, that's just what I thought myself. My first early symphonies were the "Morning, Noon & Night" disk by Dorati, oh, so long ago! And the first time I spun it my thought was "this can't really be from 1761!". To me they just had that distinctive Haydn Sound. :)

8)

Meseems this must be largely related to the fact that "Papa" nigh unto invented the genre.

The reason that it surprises us, is largely because once the genre was established, it became commonplace for young composers to try their hand at it early on, and early symphony/symphonies becomes synonymous with composer applying to learn his craft. That doesn't apply with Haydn, since (obviously) you don't invent a musical genre unless you already know pretty much what you're doing . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 29, 2012, 05:23:47 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 29, 2012, 04:54:07 AM
. . . Hell, I barely have English down yet . . . .

Texas may well be one of those places (as Professor Henry Higgins remarks) where English "entirely disappears" . . . so you may not bneed it to manage, down your way ; )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on March 29, 2012, 07:18:06 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 29, 2012, 04:41:05 AM
BTW, I think I am apt to have said before . . . but possibly not here in da Haus, much the same thing: here in the very first symphonies we already hear Haydn's ripe, assured musical intelligence and voice. Not the heights which he will later scale, but there is nothing tentative about these symphonies. (I'm remembering what I thought back when I first started my survey . . . sure, it is high time I go back and listen anew . . . .)

I love the early symphonies. In fact, some (like 6, 7 & 8 ) are among my favorites of all the symphonies.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 29, 2012, 07:38:13 AM

Quote from: Philippe de Vitry on March 29, 2012, 07:18:06 AM
I love the early symphonies. In fact, some (like 6, 7 & 8 ) are among my favorites of all the symphonies.

:)

Me too. In fact, the contents of survey of yesterday, 1757, resides on my MP3 player full time as I enjoy all that early music. I think that since Haydn was a late starter in composition compared to some of his peers that people are fooled by low numbers. He was a very mature 25 years old at the time he composed Symphony #1. So it isn't as though it was juvenilia! I agree with you about 6, 7, & 8 also. Lovely works!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on March 29, 2012, 08:06:21 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on March 29, 2012, 02:29:57 AM
I used to go to a lot of operas, before the super-title times, and not even care that I didn't understand a lick.
Sometimes I knew the gist of what was going on, occasionally I fumbled in the little yellow libretto book I would have bought for a few quid along with the program (for another few quid).

Opera as a musical, not theatrical experience. But one really only gets 50% or less of the sum of the parts. There are still operas where I think not understanding the text is a benefit. limpid, ludicrous libretti, stupid stories, preposterous plots... but the great operas are worth being taken as a whole. I can't be moved to tears by the music of Don Giovanni alone. But I can be reduced to a sobbing piece of mess given the right production knowing the drama. Or laugh riotously during a Cosi. (Not that it's that funny a piece -- and for the longest time I would have included that among the "better not hear what's going on" operas.)

I remember the parents of a college friend of mine recalling their strangest opera going experience to be a performance of Boris Godunov in Vienna, which was sung in German, which they did not speak. This was, however, before the days of Regietheater, so nowadays it might not seem so bizarre.

Of course, I do share Gurn's problem--even when the performance is in English (original or translated) I only catch about half the words--libretto, subtitles, supertitles, etc, is still necessary.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on March 29, 2012, 08:18:03 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 29, 2012, 08:06:21 AM
I remember the parents of a college friend of mine recalling their strangest opera going experience to be a performance of Boris Godunov in Vienna, which was sung in German, which they did not speak. This was, however, before the days of Regietheater, so nowadays it might not seem so bizarre.

Of course, I do share Gurn's problem--even when the performance is in English (original or translated) I only catch about half the words--libretto, subtitles, supertitles, etc, is still necessary.

True, it's very much an acquired ability to hear the text that is sung... and even then it only works if the singer has good diction, pronunciation, and enunciation. And knows the text. And if it is a native or near native language. And knows the libretto well enough. And even then some sopranos make it impossible to understand text. :) Super-titles translated can do a lot, but have to be good. Most recent Tristan I was at (Oslo) had (English) subtitles that didn't make much sense at all.. and only two singers didn't make a dog's breakfast out of the German.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on March 29, 2012, 11:39:25 AM

I recently raided my Wish List when the good folks at Amazon - who never fail to inform me that some item I've stashed away has increased or decreased by a few cents since I put in my box - alerted me that these two items' prices (especially the Kuijken) had dropped precipitously and which warranted immediate purchase:

[asin]B001TKK39S[/asin]

[asin]B000EBDCUA[/asin]

They offer different takes on Haydn, and are both very enjoyable in their own right.

Much good stuff here.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 29, 2012, 11:56:06 AM

If you don't mind the query, what price did you nab the Kuijken at?

Incidentally, that Lenny/NY Phil set looks sweet . . . and I'd never before wondered what his Haydn sounds like . . . fact is, now that (thanks to da Haus) I've become a fan of both The Creation and the Masses, I am susceptible to this box as I never was before.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 29, 2012, 12:12:51 PM

Quote from: Philippe de Vitry on March 29, 2012, 11:39:25 AM
I recently raided my Wish List when the good folks at Amazon - who never fail to inform me that some item I've stashed away has increased or decreased by a few cents since I put in my box - alerted me that these two items' prices (especially the Kuijken) had dropped precipitously and which warranted immediate purchase:

[asin]B001TKK39S[/asin]

[asin]B000EBDCUA[/asin]

They offer different takes on Haydn, and are both very enjoyable in their own right.

Much good stuff here.

:)

Well, timing is everything, Philippe; I note that the current is $107, up from the $85 that it used to sell for. I have the individual disks of this set on DHM, I would have bought the box but the price has always been steep. I am very fond indeed of these recordings. There are many good London's, but these are solid throughout the cycle. :)

I like Bernstein/VPO in some symphonies, but haven't really spent any time with the NYPO disks. As a personal preference, I don't listen to modern instrument Haydn, although I certainly don't discourage others, and I always like Bernstein anyway. I still, after 50 years, owe him a debt for making me love music. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on March 29, 2012, 12:23:43 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 29, 2012, 11:56:06 AM
If you don't mind the query, what price did you nab the Kuijken at?

Incidentally, that Lenny/NY Phil set looks sweet . . . and I'd never before wondered what his Haydn sounds like . . . fact is, now that (thanks to da Haus) I've become a fan of both The Creation and the Masses, I am susceptible to this box as I never was before.

The Kuijken box has always been north of $80 or $90, and now even at $107, but when I saw it for $65.00 I leaped. The Bernstein was in the $45 neighborhood.

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 29, 2012, 12:12:51 PM
Well, timing is everything, Philippe; I note that the current is $107, up from the $85 that it used to sell for. I have the individual disks of this set on DHM, I would have bought the box but the price has always been steep. I am very fond indeed of these recordings. There are many good London's, but these are solid throughout the cycle. :)

I like Bernstein/VPO in some symphonies, but haven't really spent any time with the NYPO disks. As a personal preference, I don't listen to modern instrument Haydn, although I certainly don't discourage others, and I always like Bernstein anyway. I still, after 50 years, owe him a debt for making me love music. :)

8)

Bernstein can legitimately (I think) be called a Haydnisto, he certainly devoted a significant amount of his energy and recording time to his works.

I am also prone to prefering PI recordings, but recently indulged in modern symphony recordings in addition to the Bernstein, Szell doing Haydn and Krips doing Mozart. Not to worry, I also just got the Brautigam Haydn concerto set.

It's all good.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 29, 2012, 12:32:32 PM

At $65, that set was well seized upon!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 29, 2012, 12:37:22 PM

Quote from: Philippe de Vitry on March 29, 2012, 12:23:43 PM
Bernstein can legitimately (I think) be called a Haydnisto, he certainly devoted a significant amount of his energy and recording time to his works.

I am also prone to prefering PI recordings, but recently indulged in modern symphony recordings in addition to the Bernstein, Szell doing Haydn and Krips doing Mozart. Not to worry, I also just got the Brautigam Haydn concerto set.

It's all good.

Yes indeed. As a useful adjunct to those Bernstein symphonies, this disk;

[asin]B00000E2WJ[/asin] (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61zWFcp4hZL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

is a very fine effort which I can't recommend more highly.

Those Brautigam concertos are really nice, he kicks butt in #11... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on March 29, 2012, 05:44:43 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 29, 2012, 12:37:22 PM
Yes indeed. As a useful adjunct to those Bernstein symphonies, this disk;

[asin]B00000E2WJ[/asin] (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61zWFcp4hZL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

is a very fine effort which I can't recommend more highly.

Those Brautigam concertos are really nice, he kicks butt in #11... :)

8)

Even better, get the boxset, which has all of Lenny's DG Haydn recordings--that CD, plus the Suprise Symphony and Sinfonia Concertante, the Creation, and the Mass in Time of War. Not as comprehensive as the NYPO set, but what it has is good. And for just under $20, too.
[asin]B0001WGDWQ[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 29, 2012, 06:02:21 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 29, 2012, 05:44:43 PM
Even better, get the boxset, which has all of Lenny's DG Haydn recordings--that CD, plus the Suprise Symphony and Sinfonia Concertante, the Creation, and the Mass in Time of War. Not as comprehensive as the NYPO set, but what it has is good. And for just under $20, too.
[asin]B0001WGDWQ[/asin]

Yup, that would work. It is at least a couple of things that aren't on the NYPO set... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on March 29, 2012, 06:17:20 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 29, 2012, 07:38:13 AM
Me too. In fact, the contents of survey of yesterday, 1757, resides on my MP3 player full time as I enjoy all that early music. I think that since Haydn was a late starter in composition compared to some of his peers that people are fooled by low numbers. He was a very mature 25 years old at the time he composed Symphony #1. So it isn't as though it was juvenilia! I agree with you about 6, 7, & 8 also. Lovely works!

8)

I've actually been thinking about this just recently, about how different the idea of an 'early work' is for different composers.

Of course, it doesn't hurt if you live to a decent old age, then things written in your mid-20s are early works assuming you carry on for most of your life. Heck, I've been listening to "early works" of Faure recently and he was in his 30s by then, but still had over 40 years of composing to go.

Whereas if you're somone like Mozart, Chopin or Schubert, by the time you hit your mid-20s you are thoroughly mid-career.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 29, 2012, 06:26:05 PM

Quote from: orfeo on March 29, 2012, 06:17:20 PM
I've actually been thinking about this just recently, about how different the idea of an 'early work' is for different composers.

Of course, it doesn't hurt if you live to a decent old age, then things written in your mid-20s are early works assuming you carry on for most of your life. Heck, I've been listening to "early works" of Faure recently and he was in his 30s by then, but still had over 40 years of composing to go.

Whereas if you're someone like Mozart, Chopin or Schubert, by the time you hit your mid-20s you are thoroughly mid-career.

Indeed so. I can't put my hands on it right this minute, but I read, long ago, something to the effect that if Beethoven had died at the same age as Mozart, we would only have a couple of symphonies, six quartets, 18 or so sonatas, and really, not a lot else to distinguish him as anything more than a promising career cut short! And generally speaking, despite admitting Haydn's mastery of the sonata form, most people today, when challenged to list his best works, can really only name things he composed after he reached 60 years! So, a late bloomer, or do we sometimes have to recalibrate our estimation of 'early works'? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on March 29, 2012, 06:41:12 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 29, 2012, 06:26:05 PM
Indeed so. I can't put my hands on it right this minute, but I read, long ago, something to the effect that if Beethoven had died at the same age as Mozart, we would only have a couple of symphonies, six quartets, 18 or so sonatas, and really, not a lot else to distinguish him as anything more than a promising career cut short! And generally speaking, despite admitting Haydn's mastery of the sonata form, most people today, when challenged to list his best works, can really only name things he composed after he reached 60 years! So, a late bloomer, or do we sometimes have to recalibrate our estimation of 'early works'? :)

8)

I don't think it's that he's a late bloomer, simply that (as is also recently under discussion in the "composers you don't get") a composer's later work is frequently 'better' or more mature than their early work, and in the long term at least it's usually appreciated as a further development. Your most developed works are usually the ones towards the end of your career, regardless of the age at which your career ended.

It's much easier to compare a composer to himself at a different age than it is to compare one composer to another.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 29, 2012, 06:54:18 PM

Quote from: orfeo on March 29, 2012, 06:41:12 PM
I don't think it's that he's a late bloomer, simply that (as is also recently under discussion in the "composers you don't get") a composer's later work is frequently 'better' or more mature than their early work, and in the long term at least it's usually appreciated as a further development. Your most developed works are usually the ones towards the end of your career, regardless of the age at which your career ended.

It's much easier to compare a composer to himself at a different age than it is to compare one composer to another.

Well, I both agree and disagree with that. It's true, as a composer gets more experienced he learns new techniques and new ways to express his ideas, so in fact we usually perceive him as being "better". However, there are undoubtedly composers who are more inspired in their younger years, more full of ideas. And even if they lack the means for expression that they might acquire in time, their music has a vitality that gives it an attraction all its own.

I have always had a very difficult time with comparative, qualitative judgments. I don't go in a big way for "best", rather, I go for each thing on its own merits. Even the idea that it's easier to compare a composer to himself at different ages doesn't sit well with me (despite that it is probably true). Sometimes things aren't evolutionary in the sense of movement towards a definite goal. A good example, I think, is the long-standing tradition that everything that Haydn wrote before 1780 was merely movement towards achieving "High Classicism", as though that was intentional striving towards a goal. But it really was retroactive application of a handy classification to a style. Despite the fact that it took a shoehorn and an easy way of overlooking whatever didn't fit. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on March 29, 2012, 07:01:54 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 29, 2012, 06:54:18 PM
Well, I both agree and disagree with that. It's true, as a composer gets more experienced he learns new techniques and new ways to express his ideas, so in fact we usually perceive him as being "better". However, there are undoubtedly composers who are more inspired in their younger years, more full of ideas. And even if they lack the means for expression that they might acquire in time, their music has a vitality that gives it an attraction all its own.

I have always had a very difficult time with comparative, qualitative judgments. I don't go in a big way for "best", rather, I go for each thing on its own merits. Even the idea that it's easier to compare a composer to himself at different ages doesn't sit well with me (despite that it is probably true). Sometimes things aren't evolutionary in the sense of movement towards a definite goal. A good example, I think, is the long-standing tradition that everything that Haydn wrote before 1780 was merely movement towards achieving "High Classicism", as though that was intentional striving towards a goal. But it really was retroactive application of a handy classification to a style. Despite the fact that it took a shoehorn and an easy way of overlooking whatever didn't fit. :)

8)

Agreed. I don't think there's any hard and fast rule by any means. I have composers I like more in the middle than at either end. Can't think of any off the top of my head where I explicitly prefer the early work, but there could well be someone. For Haydn I haven't had the opportunity to find out yet - I just know I really, really like the 1790s material because that's what I know so far. Which gives me a CLUE that I might also like his earlier work. And I think it will be fun to find out.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 29, 2012, 10:21:05 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 29, 2012, 06:54:18 PM
Well, I both agree and disagree with that. It's true, as a composer gets more experienced he learns new techniques and new ways to express his ideas, so in fact we usually perceive him as being "better". However, there are undoubtedly composers who are more inspired in their younger years, more full of ideas. And even if they lack the means for expression that they might acquire in time, their music has a vitality that gives it an attraction all its own.

I have always had a very difficult time with comparative, qualitative judgments. I don't go in a big way for "best", rather, I go for each thing on its own merits. Even the idea that it's easier to compare a composer to himself at different ages doesn't sit well with me (despite that it is probably true). Sometimes things aren't evolutionary in the sense of movement towards a definite goal. A good example, I think, is the long-standing tradition that everything that Haydn wrote before 1780 was merely movement towards achieving "High Classicism", as though that was intentional striving towards a goal. But it really was retroactive application of a handy classification to a style. Despite the fact that it took a shoehorn and an easy way of overlooking whatever didn't fit. :)

8)

Well said.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on March 29, 2012, 10:55:44 PM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on March 29, 2012, 10:21:05 PM
Well said.

The Gurnatron almost always says things well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 30, 2012, 04:00:37 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 29, 2012, 06:54:18 PM
Well, I both agree and disagree with that. It's true, as a composer gets more experienced he learns new techniques and new ways to express his ideas, so in fact we usually perceive him as being "better". However, there are undoubtedly composers who are more inspired in their younger years, more full of ideas. And even if they lack the means for expression that they might acquire in time, their music has a vitality that gives it an attraction all its own.

I have always had a very difficult time with comparative, qualitative judgments. I don't go in a big way for "best", rather, I go for each thing on its own merits. Even the idea that it's easier to compare a composer to himself at different ages doesn't sit well with me (despite that it is probably true). Sometimes things aren't evolutionary in the sense of movement towards a definite goal. A good example, I think, is the long-standing tradition that everything that Haydn wrote before 1780 was merely movement towards achieving "High Classicism", as though that was intentional striving towards a goal. But it really was retroactive application of a handy classification to a style. Despite the fact that it took a shoehorn and an easy way of overlooking whatever didn't fit. :)

8)

I think, too, that with Haydn, we have a composer who early on establishes technical mastery, and then there is a point where he kicksc into overdrive.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 30, 2012, 04:06:57 AM

Watched In Search of Haydn again last night, this time with Mamochka, who really enjoyed it, as well, finding it of absorbing interest throughout, beautifully filmed, and in particular, that the music performers were shot interestingly. I've not yet watched the extras, which include an interview with the director . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 30, 2012, 04:17:44 AM

Quote from: orfeo on March 29, 2012, 07:01:54 PM
Agreed. I don't think there's any hard and fast rule by any means. I have composers I like more in the middle than at either end. Can't think of any off the top of my head where I explicitly prefer the early work, but there could well be someone. For Haydn I haven't had the opportunity to find out yet - I just know I really, really like the 1790s material because that's what I know so far. Which gives me a CLUE that I might also like his earlier work. And I think it will be fun to find out.

Well, in the interest of being controversial (although I rarely am ::) ) one name I can throw out in this regard is Beethoven. I dote on early & middle Beethoven, yet while I readily admit that the technical mastery of the late works preempts anything that came before (and most things that came later too), I don't get nearly the enjoyment from them. The raw power and flow of ideas of the young Beethoven is unprecedented, IMO.

Quote from: mc ukrneal on March 29, 2012, 10:21:05 PM
Well said.

Quote from: Opus106 on March 29, 2012, 10:55:44 PM
The Gurnatron almost always says things well.

Thank you guys. I wasn't sure to what extent I was flying in the face of convention. Glad it wasn't just me... 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 30, 2012, 04:23:33 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 30, 2012, 04:00:37 AM
I think, too, that with Haydn, we have a composer who early on establishes technical mastery, and then there is a point where he kicksc into overdrive.

That's another aspect not often noted during the age discussion (which has been going on for, well, ages!). The eight or so years that Haydn spent between getting kicked out of the Vienna Boys' Choir and landing a job with Morzin were spent studying. His copy of Fux (Gradus ad Parnassum) was still in his library when he died, and the margins were chock full of notes from a lifetime of study, but beginning way back in the day when no one knew his name. And his work with Porpora taught him much too, even way beyond how to set a voice to music. Not to mention that he was a genius, something all too often overlooked. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 30, 2012, 04:24:48 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 30, 2012, 04:06:57 AM
Watched In Search of Haydn again last night, this time with Mamochka, who really enjoyed it, as well, finding it of absorbing interest throughout, beautifully filmed, and in particular, that the music performers were shot interestingly. I've not yet watched the extras, which include an interview with the director . . . .

I'm so looking forward to this. Actually, I'm pleased that I wasn't aware of it during the making of. Now I am only having to anticipate just at the last minute. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 30, 2012, 04:38:46 AM

Quote from: Philippe de Vitry on March 29, 2012, 11:39:25 AM
[asin]B001TKK39S[/asin]

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 29, 2012, 05:44:43 PM
. . . all of Lenny's DG Haydn recordings--that CD, plus the Suprise Symphony and Sinfonia Concertante, the Creation, and the Mass in Time of War. Not as comprehensive as the NYPO set, but what it has is good. And for just under $20, too.

[asin]B0001WGDWQ[/asin]

Oh, dis Haus — 'twill be my ruination. Yes, yes, I've pulled the trigger on both these, within these past 24 hours.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 30, 2012, 04:44:28 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 30, 2012, 04:38:46 AM
Oh, dis Haus — 'twill be my ruination. Yes, yes, I've pulled the trigger on both these, within these past 24 hours.

Oh Karl! :o :o

Splendid, really. And such a bargain for so much music. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 30, 2012, 04:50:52 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 30, 2012, 04:44:28 AM
Oh Karl! :o :o

Splendid, really. And such a bargain for so much music. :)

8)

I do expect good listenin' O Gurn . . . experience of the twin Sony & DG reissues of Lenny's Sibelius, plus my turbo-fied interest in "Papa" — I am sure I shall dig these. There was a reviewer on Amazon who didn't much care for the Sinfonia concertante in the DG box, but maybe I shall like it just fine ; )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 30, 2012, 04:53:30 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 30, 2012, 04:24:48 AM
I'm so looking forward to this. Actually, I'm pleased that I wasn't aware of it during the making of. Now I am only having to anticipate just at the last minute. :)

8)

One bit which was nice to be reminded of by watching again: when attention is turned to the celebrated Trumpet Concerto, there are interviews with both a modern trumpeter (as 'twere) and a chap playing (what I take for) the antique keyed trumpet which was the occasion for the commission.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on March 30, 2012, 06:19:46 AM

From 2 different sources, I've ordered all the Festetics Haydn 4s except volume 1 (opus 9), and at less than extortionate prices. Took some research, that.

Are they here yet?

.........

Are they here yet?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 30, 2012, 06:29:46 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on March 30, 2012, 06:19:46 AM
From 2 different sources, I've ordered all the Festetics Haydn 4s except volume 1 (opus 9), and at less than extortionate prices. Took some research, that.

Are they here yet?

.........

Are they here yet?

Yes, I bet it DID take some research! I actually spent 3 months at it in late 2010, trying to find it for less than $35-40/set. I did pretty well too, for that matter; IIRC I paid on average $20/box. HArd to beat that! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on March 30, 2012, 06:37:13 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 30, 2012, 06:29:46 AM
Yes, I bet it DID take some research! I actually spent 3 months at it in late 2010, trying to find it for less than $35-40/set. I did pretty well too, for that matter; IIRC I paid on average $20/box. HArd to beat that! :)

8)

Well, assuming I get them all, my net outlay will be $13.82 Cdn per disc. Not bad for quality.

Incidentally, and for Canuckleheads especially, the distributor SRI is now e-tailing directly at http://store.audiophile.ca/en/ (http://store.audiophile.ca/en/)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 30, 2012, 07:42:39 AM

Another illuminative benefit (for me) from In Search of Haydn has been: For reasons so far back, I don't even know them, I've never thought particularly much of the Cello Concerti. Here, though, we see (and, to be sure, hear) Gautier Capuçon playing an Allegro movement of the C Major Concerto, and it is hot stuff.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 30, 2012, 07:52:58 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 30, 2012, 07:42:39 AM
Another illuminative benefit (for me) from In Search of Haydn has been: For reasons so far back, I don't even know them, I've never thought particularly much of the Cello Concerti. Here, though, we see (and, to be sure, hear) Gautier Capuçon playing an Allegro movement of the C Major Concerto, and it is hot stuff.

Yeah, I need to be reminded on occasion how good they are too. The first one is a peach, IMO. Since he wrote it for his own first cello, and the 1st horn and 1st violin concerti likewise, you can imagine how good that band must have been!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 30, 2012, 07:54:33 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on March 30, 2012, 06:37:13 AM
Well, assuming I get them all, my net outlay will be $13.82 Cdn per disc. Not bad for quality.

Incidentally, and for Canuckleheads especially, the distributor SRI is now e-tailing directly at http://store.audiophile.ca/en/ (http://store.audiophile.ca/en/)

Man, that's excellent! FWIW, I did get 2 or 3 of mine out of Canada, and then a couple from England too. The only ones I got in USA were on eBay. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on March 30, 2012, 07:54:35 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 30, 2012, 07:42:39 AM
Another illuminative benefit (for me) from In Search of Haydn has been: For reasons so far back, I don't even know them, I've never thought particularly much of the Cello Concerti. Here, though, we see (and, to be sure, hear) Gautier Capuçon playing an Allegro movement of the C Major Concerto, and it is hot stuff.

You've got me all bubbly for this flick now, but the Cdn amazon says it isn't released here till April 24. Grrr.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on March 30, 2012, 08:52:00 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 30, 2012, 07:54:33 AM
Man, that's excellent! FWIW, I did get 2 or 3 of mine out of Canada, and then a couple from England too. The only ones I got in USA were on eBay. :)

8)

I thought MDT sold them all, at all times, for something like 17, 18 pounds. That's how I remember getting them, at least. In the US, the label is trickier to come by... but fortunately MDT ships internationally.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on March 30, 2012, 09:28:05 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on March 30, 2012, 08:52:00 AM
I thought MDT sold them all, at all times, for something like 17, 18 pounds. That's how I remember getting them, at least. In the US, the label is trickier to come by... but fortunately MDT ships internationally.

They're showing 3 or 4 for 13 pds right now. Good price. Curiously, they also list (for substantially more) the Festetics opus 9 on Hungaroton. Is this the same recording?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 30, 2012, 09:39:41 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on March 30, 2012, 08:52:00 AM
I thought MDT sold them all, at all times, for something like 17, 18 pounds. That's how I remember getting them, at least. In the US, the label is trickier to come by... but fortunately MDT ships internationally.

At that time MDT only had 2 of them in stock (54 & 55 was one, but I can't recall the other), and I bought both. Amazon UK had another but it was much higher priced. I had originally ordered 3 of them from MDT, but when they shipped, one of them was already sold out.

Most Arcana releases are quite difficult to obtain in USA, I usually have to go with someone in England. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 30, 2012, 09:40:51 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on March 30, 2012, 09:28:05 AM
They're showing 3 or 4 for 13 pds right now. Good price. Curiously, they also list (for substantially more) the Festetics opus 9 on Hungaroton. Is this the same recording?

No, 10 or so years older. And definitely less skilled, so I've read.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on March 30, 2012, 09:42:30 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 30, 2012, 09:40:51 AM
No, 10 or so years older. And definitely less skilled, so I've read.

8)

Good to know.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 30, 2012, 09:51:16 AM

Some nice notes on the Missa in angustiis, courtesy of the Aylesbury Choral Society (http://www.aylesburychoral.org.uk/):

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 30, 2012, 10:01:15 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 30, 2012, 07:42:39 AM
Another illuminative benefit (for me) from In Search of Haydn has been: For reasons so far back, I don't even know them, I've never thought particularly much of the Cello Concerti. Here, though, we see (and, to be sure, hear) Gautier Capuçon playing an Allegro movement of the C Major Concerto, and it is hot stuff.

It's pricey, in fact I only have the MP3 at the moment, but these performances make me drool, they sound so good...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51J3W6VMXNL._SL500_AA350_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 30, 2012, 10:22:35 AM

A portion from the liner notes in the Haydn Symphonies No. 1-20 Set - Adam Fischer, Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra regarding Haydn performances with modern instruments...

"Even radical supporters of period instruments agree that the personality of the player is more important than the question of what instrument he or she plays. I endeavour to choose players who feel a personal affinity with Haydn's music, who are able to express this identity in their playing and who react instantly and automatically to the other players' rubatos. The vital point is that a concert should be exciting and convincing. A boring performance remains a crime, even if it is historically 'correct'."

-Adam Fischer

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on March 30, 2012, 10:33:52 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 30, 2012, 10:01:15 AM
It's pricey, in fact I only have the MP3 at the moment, but these performances make me drool, they sound so good...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51J3W6VMXNL._SL500_AA350_.jpg)
J. Haydn
Cello Concertos
J.G.Queyras
Freiburg Baroque Orchestra
HMU (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0001WECMO/goodmusicguide-20)

Best* recording of those pieces. :-) !

The absence of the possibility of a platonic "best" performance being implied.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 30, 2012, 10:39:20 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on March 30, 2012, 10:33:52 AM
Best recording of those pieces. :-) !

Very damned fine, anyway. I always have trouble with "best", but in any case if it was my only one I would be quite content. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 30, 2012, 10:40:39 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 30, 2012, 10:22:35 AM
A portion from the liner notes in the Haydn Symphonies No. 1-20 Set - Adam Fischer, Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra regarding Haydn performances with modern instruments...

"Even radical supporters of period instruments agree that the personality of the player is more important than the question of what instrument he or she plays. I endeavour to choose players who feel a personal affinity with Haydn's music, who are able to express this identity in their playing and who react instantly and automatically to the other players' rubatos. The vital point is that a concert should be exciting and convincing. A boring performance remains a crime, even if it is historically 'correct'."

-Adam Fischer

Well, he's right, that's what it comes down to. I would miss certain aspects of tone color, but to hear inspired playing it is a sacrifice I would make. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 30, 2012, 10:47:22 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 30, 2012, 10:40:39 AM
Well, he's right, that's what it comes down to. I would miss certain aspects of tone color, but to hear inspired playing it is a sacrifice I would make. :)

8)

You said it, Gurn, I think Fischer is passionate about Haydn's music and it shows, but there are aspects of HIP that are irresistible.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 30, 2012, 10:48:36 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on March 30, 2012, 10:33:52 AM
Best* recording of those pieces. :-) !

The absence of the possibility of a platonic "best" performance being implied.

Does this have an alternate cover art?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 30, 2012, 10:57:11 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 30, 2012, 10:48:36 AM
Does this have an alternate cover art?

Yes, it is also out in the "2009 Haydn Year" artwork, that dark brown background with the dynamic contour. God luck finding that one though. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 30, 2012, 10:59:44 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 30, 2012, 10:57:11 AM
Yes, it is also out in the "2009 Haydn Year" artwork, that dark brown background with the dynamic contour. God luck finding that one though. :)

8)

The AmazonMP has the one I posted, but it's always over $20, one day I may just have to get it, the MP3 actually sounds very good.
Thanks, Gurn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 30, 2012, 11:14:42 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 30, 2012, 10:47:22 AM
You said it, Gurn, I think Fischer is passionate about Haydn's music and it shows[....]

And although my chronological survey stalled somewhere in the 40s, I have definitely listened to those 20, and they are lipsmackin' good.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on March 31, 2012, 04:27:06 AM

It's funny how particular moments of music can push one's buttons over and over again, no matter how many times you listen.

In the case of Haydn, there's a little moment (well, technically 2 little moments - exposition and recapitulation) in the Largo of Op.76/5 that's been pushing my buttons for oh, a little over 20 years now. And it still gets me every single time.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 31, 2012, 04:35:37 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 30, 2012, 10:59:44 AM
The AmazonMP has the one I posted, but it's always over $20, one day I may just have to get it, the MP3 actually sounds very good.
Thanks, Gurn.

I found a copy on the German Amazon marketplace for €5.99. Y'all forced me to push the buy button ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 31, 2012, 04:54:54 AM

Happy Birthday, Mr. Haydn. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 31, 2012, 04:57:22 AM

We're all wearing powdered wigs in "Papa's" honor, I trust!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 31, 2012, 05:07:42 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 31, 2012, 04:57:22 AM
We're all wearing powdered wigs in "Papa's" honor, I trust!

Oh, it's Photoshop time, Mr. Henning...hmm, bet I could find a pic of you somewhere. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 31, 2012, 06:54:10 AM

Happy Birthday, Papa! 280 years old today, and not showing any signs of age so far. :)

Ihr ergebener Fan,

Gurn 8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHaselbckcover.jpg)
Divertimento Salzburg; Haselböck - Hob 02_11 Divertimento in C for Winds & Strings (The Birthday Divertimento) 1st mvmt - Presto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 31, 2012, 06:57:43 AM

At the MFA now, but en route, I played the Harmoniemesse. Hard to believe I ever had "trouble" with these works heretofore.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 31, 2012, 07:00:54 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 31, 2012, 06:57:43 AM
At the MFA now, but en route, I played the Harmoniemesse. Hard to believe I ever had "trouble" with these works heretofore.

That's one of my favorites, Karl. His last completed work, and also the largest mass he wrote. I agree that's odd; you know me, I'm not the biggest mass music fan on earth, but I took to those last 6 masses on first hearing. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 31, 2012, 04:20:18 PM

As part of my private Geburstdag celebration, I managed to get another year updated. Please see here for Part 7 - 1758 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg575233.html#msg575233). Unfortunately few blanks got filled in, it's a tough slog digging up facts from this era. :-\ Still, it's got a bit anyway. :)

Enjoy!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 31, 2012, 04:54:59 PM

So, a good friend gifted me with "In Search of Haydn", which arrived today, of all days, so a perfect time for a late matinee in the music room.

To give you a brief idea of what to expect, I can only say that it is among the most entertaining documentaries I have ever seen. It is 90+ minutes of a steady stream of historians, musicians (nearly all of which you are familiar with), on location looks, even nice views of documents, all accompanied by significant sized chunks of music. The historians tell you the history, the musicians talk about the personal side of playing Haydn's music, the tour shots (Esterháza Palace is beautiful!), all of it is superb.

The personal aspect for yours truly was unexpectedly emotional. Not sure what to make of that, really. Perhaps it was just a combination of the power of the narrative, the fact that the musicians spoke so surprisingly personally about how they felt about playing the music and how they valued it. In any case, if you are a lover of Haydn's music, then prepare for the possibility that you will choke up here and there. It is that overwhelming in places.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Herman on March 31, 2012, 05:35:19 PM

Quote from: Scion7 on March 05, 2012, 09:38:57 AM
I've listened to them. But one only has so much time (and resources!) - I have an extensive [as in literally over 4,000 albums-call me crazy!] classical, jazz, folk, blues, and some of the more advanced rock stuff - I can't spend time on everything! :D When I say "mature" I should have said "late" - Opus 20 certainly nailed the string quartet to what the form was from that point on.
It's ok if I don't grab Op.1, 2, 9, 17? Argh, my house runneth over as it is. Now you've planted the Op.20 bug and I must resist!

Certainly from Op 33 onwards all Haydn quartets are indispensible.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on April 01, 2012, 02:09:36 AM

Quote from: Scion7 on March 05, 2012, 09:38:57 AM
I've listened to them. But one only has so much time (and resources!) - I have an extensive [as in literally over 4,000 albums-call me crazy!] classical, jazz, folk, blues, and some of the more advanced rock stuff - I can't spend time on everything! :D When I say "mature" I should have said "late" - Opus 20 certainly nailed the string quartet to what the form was from that point on.
It's ok if I don't grab Op.1, 2, 9, 17? Argh, my house runneth over as it is. Now you've planted the Op.20 bug and I must resist!

From: http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=592 (http://www.weta.org/oldfmblog/?p=592)

QuoteOpus 9 was Haydn's first set of string quartets conceived as a series and was composed between 1768 and 1770, appearing in print 1771 or a year later. Haydn entered them into his work register in the order of Nos. 4, 1, 3, 2, 5, and 6, but the publisher Huberty (Paris) changed them around to the ordering we know today. Like all quartets before op.33, they get short shrift. Like all quartets of Haydn that get short shrift, they're still superb. With almost 70 quartets total, it's difficult to complain that listeners make priorities, and it's certainly not outrageous that op.9 are not among them. But they shouldn't be ignored, either, and for the ambitious Haydn lover, they're joyously requisite listening...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on April 01, 2012, 10:31:47 AM

Y'all've reminded me how much I like this stuff. Pining for the film!

[asin]B0000631BM[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on April 01, 2012, 06:06:38 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on March 31, 2012, 04:54:59 PM
So, a good friend gifted me with "In Search of Haydn", which arrived today, of all days, so a perfect time for a late matinee in the music room.

To give you a brief idea of what to expect, I can only say that it is among the most entertaining documentaries I have ever seen. It is 90+ minutes of a steady stream of historians, musicians (nearly all of which you are familiar with), on location looks, even nice views of documents, all accompanied by significant sized chunks of music. The historians tell you the history, the musicians talk about the personal side of playing Haydn's music, the tour shots (Esterháza Palace is beautiful!), all of it is superb.

The personal aspect for yours truly was unexpectedly emotional. Not sure what to make of that, really. Perhaps it was just a combination of the power of the narrative, the fact that the musicians spoke so surprisingly personally about how they felt about playing the music and how they valued it. In any case, if you are a lover of Haydn's music, then prepare for the possibility that you will choke up here and there. It is that overwhelming in places.

8)

This movies sounds wonderful. I just pre-ordered it; it won't ship until April 24th.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 01, 2012, 06:43:17 PM

Quote from: chasmaniac on April 01, 2012, 10:31:47 AM
Y'all've reminded me how much I like this stuff. Pining for the film!

[asin]B0000631BM[/asin]

Such an amazing trio of symphonies. No.6 is one of my favorites, I find Haydn's music so desirable when he features solo instruments and No.6 has remarkable solo parts, especially the violin at the opening of the 2nd movement Adagio-Andante-Adagio.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on April 01, 2012, 11:28:43 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 01, 2012, 06:43:17 PM
Such an amazing trio of symphonies. No.6 is one of my favorites, I find Haydn's music so desirable when he features solo instruments and No.6 has remarkable solo parts, especially the violin at the opening of the 2nd movement Adagio-Andante-Adagio.

It was Norrington's doing in highlighting various soli in the Londons, wasn't it? That is, these weren't written into the score, correct? (Just curious. I like them somewhat.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 02, 2012, 01:39:19 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 01, 2012, 06:43:17 PM
Such an amazing trio of symphonies. No.6 is one of my favorites, I find Haydn's music so desirable when he features solo instruments and No.6 has remarkable solo parts, especially the violin at the opening of the 2nd movement Adagio-Andante-Adagio.

Not (too) surprisingly, this troika of symphonies come in for specific mention on-site at Eisenstadt in the film.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 02, 2012, 04:18:30 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on April 01, 2012, 11:28:43 PM
It was Norrington's doing in highlighting various soli in the Londons, wasn't it? That is, these weren't written into the score, correct? (Just curious. I like them somewhat.)

There are actually some solos written into the scores of some of the London's. They aren't as extensive as in the early symphonies, which have their roots closer to the Italian concerto grosso, but IIRC #95 has a nice cello solo part, and #98 has a violin part (and not to mention the obligatto keyboard at the end). Some others too. It seems like Haydn was getting back to his roots there.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on April 02, 2012, 05:40:09 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 02, 2012, 04:18:30 AM
There are actually some solos written into the scores of some of the London's. They aren't as extensive as in the early symphonies, which have their roots closer to the Italian concerto grosso, but IIRC #95 has a nice cello solo part, and #98 has a violin part (and not to mention the obligatto keyboard at the end). Some others too. It seems like Haydn was getting back to his roots there.... :)

8)

Thanks, Gurn. I came back to these symphonies recently after a 5-year break and with a pair of ears ever-so-slightly better in picking out various things happening in the music, so when I listened to Norrington's Stuttgart work, I was pleasantly surprised by the solo passages for various instruments and, given that it was his conducting, thought that he had taken a little freedom in emphasising the colours available in Haydn's music. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 02, 2012, 06:36:23 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 02, 2012, 04:18:30 AM
There are actually some solos written into the scores of some of the London's. They aren't as extensive as in the early symphonies, which have their roots closer to the Italian concerto grosso, but IIRC #95 has a nice cello solo part, and #98 has a violin part (and not to mention the obligatto keyboard at the end). Some others too. It seems like Haydn was getting back to his roots there.... :)

8)

Interesting, with #98 I always wondered why half of the performances I own have the violin section playing with the at the end-keyboard and other performancs have a solo violin. I prefer the solo because it seems to mirror the solo from the middle of the movement.

Another interesting note, the Solti version has the harpsichord playing continuo thought the entire final movement, whereas every other version only uses it at the end, which I find more effective.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 02, 2012, 07:02:15 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 02, 2012, 06:36:23 AM
Interesting, with #98 I always wondered why half of the performances I own have the violin section playing with the at the end-keyboard and other performancs have a solo violin. I prefer the solo because it seems to mirror the solo from the middle of the movement.

Another interesting note, the Solti version has the harpsichord playing continuo thought the entire final movement, whereas every other version only uses it at the end, which I find more effective.

Particularly interesting that he uses a harpsichord at all. Many sources outside the newspaper reviews confirm that the reviewer was only being customary when he wrote 'harpsichord', and it was, in fact, a fortepiano that Haydn played. But outside of that, it is particularly effective as just a little rockin' solo at the end. :)

Quote from: Opus106 on April 02, 2012, 05:40:09 AM
Thanks, Gurn. I came back to these symphonies recently after a 5-year break and with a pair of ears ever-so-slightly better in picking out various things happening in the music, so when I listened to Norrington's Stuttgart work, I was pleasantly surprised by the solo passages for various instruments and, given that it was his conducting, thought that he had taken a little freedom in emphasising the colours available in Haydn's music. :)

Navneeth,
Yeah, he can be wayward like that, but this time he's right on. If you are giving those a re-listen, you might also check out the very nice oboe solo work in the minuet of #96.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on April 02, 2012, 07:19:33 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 02, 2012, 07:02:15 AM
Navneeth,
Yeah, he can be wayward like that, but this time he's right on. If you are giving those a re-listen, you might also check out the very nice oboe solo work in the minuet of #96.... :)

8)

It's on now. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 02, 2012, 07:22:34 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on April 02, 2012, 07:19:33 AM
It's on now. :)

Brilliant! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on April 02, 2012, 07:29:56 AM

Re: the 96, there comes a sequence (around 7:15 and again around 10:00 in this particular recording) which seems like a precursor to a similar one in the fourth movement of the Op. 125.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 02, 2012, 07:34:08 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on April 02, 2012, 07:29:56 AM
. . . in the fourth movement of the Op. 125.

But, Nav: there are only three movements in the Prokofiev Symphony-Concerto for Cello and Orchestra . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 02, 2012, 07:36:24 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 02, 2012, 07:34:08 AM
But, Nav: there are only three movements in the Prokofiev Symphony-Concerto for Cello and Orchestra . . . .

Actually, the number should have been retired, like a football Hall-of-Famer's jersey number. Op 125 should be suspended from the rafters of the concert hall, untouchable.... 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on April 02, 2012, 07:40:24 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 02, 2012, 07:34:08 AM
But, Nav: there are only three movements in the Prokofiev Symphony-Concerto for Cello and Orchestra . . . .

Please refrain from dissin' da Haus favourites, sir; the 'tron is watching. You've been fairly warned. $:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 02, 2012, 07:41:00 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 02, 2012, 07:36:24 AM
Actually, the number should have been retired, like a football Hall-of-Famer's jersey number. Op 125 should be suspended from the rafters of the concert hall, untouchable.... 0:)

8)

If Music were like Major League Baseball . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on April 02, 2012, 07:42:38 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 02, 2012, 07:41:00 AM
If Music were like Major League Baseball . . . .

...I'd have avoided it. :-\

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 02, 2012, 07:44:52 AM

Aye, there is that!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 02, 2012, 08:14:54 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 02, 2012, 07:41:00 AM
If Music were like Major League Baseball . . . .

Quote from: Opus106 on April 02, 2012, 07:42:38 AM
...I'd have avoided it. :-\

Some traditions are worth maintaining, despite the dissolution of their progenitors. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on April 02, 2012, 11:24:05 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on April 02, 2012, 07:42:38 AM
Quote from: karlhenning on April 02, 2012, 07:41:00 AM
If Music were like Major League Baseball . . . .
...I'd have avoided it. :-\

Oh... but Baseball is the soul of all that is good about America(na)! It's a peek into pre-Football america.

When errors were errors, not penalties.
Fields fields, not gridirons.
Where the active team is "at bat", not "on offense"
Where you hit balls out of the park, not a 'bomb' into the end-zone.

Where there are no tackles and sacks and blitzes and bounties

Not that I'm dissin' pro-football as such (go Vikings!)... just sayin' -- it represents generally and in vernacular a newer, different America.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 03, 2012, 04:19:39 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on April 02, 2012, 05:40:09 AMI was pleasantly surprised by the solo passages for various instruments...

I've been listening to #81 today, the first time I've ever heard this fascinating symphony (if I'd heard it blind, I wouldn't have guessed a Haydn composition. It sounds almost Mozartian). Anyway, there's a really lovely solo violin passage in the Andante.

Does anyone else think that Haydn was trying to imitate the hurdy-gurdy in the rustic sounding Trio of the Minuetto? It sounds so much like one, I had to google to check the orchestration ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 03, 2012, 04:25:23 AM

Well, he was a country boy.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on April 03, 2012, 06:20:33 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 03, 2012, 04:19:39 AM
I've been listening to #81 today, the first time I've ever heard this fascinating symphony (if I'd heard it blind, I wouldn't have guessed a Haydn composition. It sounds almost Mozartian). Anyway, there's a really lovely solo violin passage in the Andante.

Thanks, Sarge. I'll come around to it soon. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 03, 2012, 06:55:04 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 03, 2012, 04:25:23 AM
Well, he was a country boy.

He was...and I'm fairly certain John Denver's song was a homage to Haydn :D

Live a good life and play the fiddle with pride
And thank God you're a country boy.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 03, 2012, 07:02:04 AM

I hear that the young John Denver (while yet growing up in Corn, Oklahoma, as Henry John Deutschendorf, Jr) wore a powdered wig, himself.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on April 03, 2012, 07:15:02 AM

We talked a while back about the tunings used by Beghin. Why isn't more made of this with regard to Haydn, by the HIPsters at least? All we're told about it in relation to, for example, a Festetics or Mosaiques performance, is that they've lowered overall pitch to A=whatever. But these groups seem content to use equal temperament. Did Haydn use this? Am I reading the liner notes wrong? Are they writing the liner notes wrong? Is dinner ready? Talk to me, braintrust.

edit: Ah, so Haydn would have used meantone? Exclusively? Do HIP ensembles use it?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 03, 2012, 08:04:25 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on April 03, 2012, 07:15:02 AM
We talked a while back about the tunings used by Beghin. Why isn't more made of this with regard to Haydn, by the HIPsters at least? All we're told about it in relation to, for example, a Festetics or Mosaiques performance, is that they've lowered overall pitch to A=whatever. But these groups seem content to use equal temperament. Did Haydn use this? Am I reading the liner notes wrong? Are they writing the liner notes wrong? Is dinner ready? Talk to me, braintrust.

edit: Ah, so Haydn would have used meantone? Exclusively? Do HIP ensembles use it?

Only have a second right now, but I would just say firstly that even temperament or meantone etc. only make a difference when there is a keyboard in the mix. Strings and winds just adapt as need be. According to HR Landon in "Chronicle & Works Vol 3" by the time of the London trips, the keyboards there were already being tuned equal temperament. I was quite surprised to read that, as I was thinking maybe 1820 or so....

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on April 03, 2012, 09:53:44 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 03, 2012, 08:04:25 AM
According to HR Landon in "Chronicle & Works Vol 3" by the time of the London trips, the keyboards there were already being tuned equal temperament. I was quite surprised to read that, as I was thinking maybe 1820 or so....

8)

It still strikes me as odd that musicians making a point of historical aptness don't so much as mention the temperament thing. I would have thought it important. If they were performing Machaut they'd go all Pythagorean for sure. Eh bien.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 04, 2012, 12:04:45 PM

Which of the Fey volumes do you like the very best, so far, Sarge?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on April 05, 2012, 03:50:48 AM

Slowly taking in the Festetics Haydn this week, and so far their opus 20 is a particular standout. As Gurn says in his survey, they play it with audible pleasure. Lovely.

[asin]B000F5FQ68[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 05, 2012, 04:03:27 AM

I love that Œuvre 32 (connus comme opus 20) !!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on April 05, 2012, 04:12:25 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 05, 2012, 04:03:27 AM
I love that Œuvre 32 (connus comme opus 20) !!!

Does give it an air of authenticity, non?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 05, 2012, 04:23:09 AM

Bien sûr!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on April 05, 2012, 06:36:32 AM

Well, we're up to Page 50, and you know what that means!

I still only have the Nomos here, seeing as the Tokyo is MIA. I can't possibly think of these pieces without the Nomos's very idiosychr... approach.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 05, 2012, 06:49:10 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on April 05, 2012, 06:36:32 AM
Well, we're up to Page 50, and you know what that means!

I still only have the Nomos here, seeing as the Tokyo is MIA. I can't possibly think of these pieces without the Nomos's very idiosychr... approach.

Why don't you get into the Op 50 blind listening game? You would enjoy it, I bet.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 05, 2012, 08:12:29 PM

Okay, if this is the wrong way to do this, will somebody please correct me? I notice a nice thread going along about various Haydn stuff and I want to put in some Haydn stuff of my own, but it doesn't relate to the earlier stuff except it's Haydn, get it? So in other words I'm wrenching the current thread. Shoot me. I'm an American, it's done all the time over here....

I want to ask a couple of really off the wall questions about some of the Masses. Kind of oddball, but here goes:

1. There is a Hänssler disc, cat. 98432, entitled "Joseph Haydn: Missa Solemnis" coupled with a smaller Michael Haydn piece, performed in St.Gallen, Switzerland, and conducted by one Mario Schwartz. It says "world premiere" across the booklet and purports to contain a lost-and-rediscovered heretofore unknown work by The Master (or in one manuscript it's attributed to Mozart), and it's 45 minutes of perfectly competent Haydn-era mass writing save only for the Quoniam section which is a direct steal from the Missa Cellensis H.XXII:5, the former St.Caecilia Mass (though re-scored slightly). Would anyone have any idea if there's been any further info. on what this oddity really is? I bought the thing out of curiosity, and am quite glad I did, but I haven't seen any reviews anywhere, nor obviously any follow-up. Thoughts? Oh - also, the conductor, Schwartz, who wrote the booklet, claims that "the fact is that two early masses by Joseph Haydn were destroyed in a fire in Eisenstadt." Huh? They were? Maybe I need to go back and read my Landon better, but I don't remember anything about an Eisenstadt (sic!) fire destroying Masses....

2. The Philips "two-fer" edition of Eugen Jochum's "Schöpfung" (446-175-2) fills out the second disc with a 1964 recording of the St.Nicolai Mass, H.XXII:6, featuring the Vienna Choir Boys and conducted by Helmut Furthmoser, and in which trumpets and drums ad lib have been added by someone. I very much doubt there is anything authentic about this; but maybe somebody knows something I don't. It was common at the time, in certain parts of Austria (e.g. Salzburg), to add these instruments as a matter of course, which is why most of Michael Haydn's and the early Mozart ones always include them. But for a Missa brevis in Vienna and the east, no. (Classic example: Michael Haydn's MH 596 is the Gloria from Joseph's Little Organ Mass X.XXII:7, expanded to remove the telescoping of the text (which Salzburg disallowed) and adding the requisite trumpets (but in this case no drums), cf. Philips 420-162-2 on which Uwe-Christian Harrer and, again, the Vienna Choir Boys have done both the Joseph Haydn original and the Michael expanded Gloria.) Okay, I know this is getting insanely musicological, but I have hopes that maybe someone in this forum with more resources than I, will know what the source of that St.Nicolai version is.

Next post, promise, will be more normal. I just wanted to clear my pile of unanswered minutiae. And I'll also figure out how to post CD photos before I do any more of this referring to obscure discs.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on April 05, 2012, 10:04:40 PM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 05, 2012, 08:12:29 PM
Okay, if this is the wrong way to do this, will somebody please correct me? I notice a nice thread going along about various Haydn stuff and I want to put in some Haydn stuff of my own, but it doesn't relate to the earlier stuff except it's Haydn, get it? So in other words I'm wrenching the current thread. Shoot me. I'm an American, it's done all the time over here....

As long as it is Haydn, it is relevant, so your post is right on. The topics here change all the time, so no worries. Unfortunately, I cannot help with your questions.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on April 06, 2012, 02:29:09 AM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 05, 2012, 08:12:29 PM
So in other words I'm wrenching the current thread.

I like ice cream!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 06, 2012, 02:37:41 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 04, 2012, 12:04:45 PM
Which of the Fey volumes do you like the very best, so far, Sarge?

Oh heavens. I haven't heard any I've disliked yet. I suppose if I had to pick, say, four, it would be these:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/dec11/haydn5354fey.jpg) (http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/dec11/haydn707375frey.jpg)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/dec11/haydn3934frey.jpg) (http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/dec11/haydn31fey.jpg)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 06, 2012, 05:32:18 AM

Thanks, Sarge! I appreciate your difficulty, and am pleased that the series is good enough to pose such a dilemma : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 06, 2012, 05:47:19 AM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 05, 2012, 08:12:29 PM
Okay, if this is the wrong way to do this, will somebody please correct me? I notice a nice thread going along about various Haydn stuff and I want to put in some Haydn stuff of my own, but it doesn't relate to the earlier stuff except it's Haydn, get it? So in other words I'm wrenching the current thread. Shoot me. I'm an American, it's done all the time over here....

I want to ask a couple of really off the wall questions about some of the Masses. Kind of oddball, but here goes:

1. There is a Hänssler disc, cat. 98432, entitled "Joseph Haydn: Missa Solemnis" coupled with a smaller Michael Haydn piece, performed in St.Gallen, Switzerland, and conducted by one Mario Schwartz. It says "world premiere" across the booklet and purports to contain a lost-and-rediscovered heretofore unknown work by The Master (or in one manuscript it's attributed to Mozart), and it's 45 minutes of perfectly competent Haydn-era mass writing save only for the Quoniam section which is a direct steal from the Missa Cellensis H.XXII:5, the former St.Caecilia Mass (though re-scored slightly). Would anyone have any idea if there's been any further info. on what this oddity really is? I bought the thing out of curiosity, and am quite glad I did, but I haven't seen any reviews anywhere, nor obviously any follow-up. Thoughts? Oh - also, the conductor, Schwartz, who wrote the booklet, claims that "the fact is that two early masses by Joseph Haydn were destroyed in a fire in Eisenstadt." Huh? They were? Maybe I need to go back and read my Landon better, but I don't remember anything about an Eisenstadt (sic!) fire destroying Masses....

2. The Philips "two-fer" edition of Eugen Jochum's "Schöpfung" (446-175-2) fills out the second disc with a 1964 recording of the St.Nicolai Mass, H.XXII:6, featuring the Vienna Choir Boys and conducted by Helmut Furthmoser, and in which trumpets and drums ad lib have been added by someone. I very much doubt there is anything authentic about this; but maybe somebody knows something I don't. It was common at the time, in certain parts of Austria (e.g. Salzburg), to add these instruments as a matter of course, which is why most of Michael Haydn's and the early Mozart ones always include them. But for a Missa brevis in Vienna and the east, no. (Classic example: Michael Haydn's MH 596 is the Gloria from Joseph's Little Organ Mass X.XXII:7, expanded to remove the telescoping of the text (which Salzburg disallowed) and adding the requisite trumpets (but in this case no drums), cf. Philips 420-162-2 on which Uwe-Christian Harrer and, again, the Vienna Choir Boys have done both the Joseph Haydn original and the Michael expanded Gloria.) Okay, I know this is getting insanely musicological, but I have hopes that maybe someone in this forum with more resources than I, will know what the source of that St.Nicolai version is.

Next post, promise, will be more normal. I just wanted to clear my pile of unanswered minutiae. And I'll also figure out how to post CD photos before I do any more of this referring to obscure discs.

Interesting questions. Let's start with #1 first. I need a tad more info, which should be supplied on the disk anyway. When was this recording made? What key is the mass in? If you can help me out there, I may have you an answer in a little while. :) I think your second question will be easier, but I may be fooling myself. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 06, 2012, 05:49:29 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 06, 2012, 05:32:18 AM
Thanks, Sarge! I appreciate your difficulty, and am pleased that the series is good enough to pose such a dilemma : )

I am not Sarge, (surprise) ;D...but he did offer some Fey discs that really shine, especially Vol. 9 (70,73,75) this is a volume that will make or break your interest in Fey's interpretations, many tempi and dynamic changes, focus on the final bars of No.75 for some added depth. Magical stuff.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 06, 2012, 06:57:02 AM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 05, 2012, 08:12:29 PM
2. The Philips "two-fer" edition of Eugen Jochum's "Schöpfung" (446-175-2) fills out the second disc with a 1964 recording of the St.Nicolai Mass, H.XXII:6, featuring the Vienna Choir Boys and conducted by Helmut Furthmoser, and in which trumpets and drums ad lib have been added by someone. I very much doubt there is anything authentic about this; but maybe somebody knows something I don't. ...... but I have hopes that maybe someone in this forum with more resources than I, will know what the source of that St.Nicolai version is.

Well, if you got your info from Wyn-Jones, or else from the same source he got it from, then it shows you this:

1772 HobXXII:6 Missa Sancti Nicolai G S-A-T-B, Chorus, 2 Oboes, 2 Horns, Strings & Continuo (Organ)

But in the New Grove Haydn, which is more in depth version wise, Georg Feder (The Prince, really, of such things) tells us that the original autograph manuscript that Haydn sent to B & H in 1802 had this:

6 6 Missa Sancti Nicolai (Nikolaimesse; 6/4-Takt-Messe), G S, A, T, B, 4vv, 2 ob, 2 hn, (2 tpt, timp), str, bc (org) 1772 EK, A L xxiii/1, 270; HW xxiii/1b, 105 in HV as Missa St Josephi; cf no.5; NOTE: tpts and timp in authentic MS copy (E)*, 1802

*Note (GB) - The (E) here means that the autograph was in the hand of Johann Ellsler, who was Haydn's copyist for years, the son of Haydn's copyist for years before that, and who also compiled the very late catalog of works with Haydn (<>1805). IOW = Authentic

So, there actually was trumpets and timpani in the original OR when Haydn sent the manuscript to B&H in 1802, he added them at that time. It would be difficult to tell because usually (and probably here too) the T & T parts were copied separately from the score so that places that didn't have T & T could easily ignore them. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnTheatricalSymphoniescover.jpg)
Haydn Sinfonietta Wien \ Huss - Hob 01_060 Symphony in C 5th mvmt - Adagio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 06, 2012, 07:31:54 AM

Quickly for the moment, gotta go have a tooth filled....

St.Nicolai - My source had been Landon (Chronicle II:251-2) but he treats this mass rather perfunctorily and, though he mentions the (E) score you cite, says that the one with added instrumental parts was different and seems to imply that it was only mentioned at all because it was found in the same collection as the Elssler one. (He does however state that there are also trombone parts - another nod toward Michael Haydn's practices. If my recording adds trombones, I don't hear them - even the trumpets and timpani are extremely discreet.) Landon does reference Faber but doesn't go to the trouble of connecting all the dots. You have done so. Thank you!

I'm well aware that the T&T parts were frequently put on other paper and separated, and I know why. My memory of old LPs extends to the first-ever recording of Symphony 33, by (of all things) the MGM Orchestra, Arthur Winograd conducting - but no T&T because the parts, on separate sheets of course, hadn't been tracked down. By the time Dorati and Märzendorfer got around to their near-simultaneous complete sets, the parts had apparently been found, as they were used by both. I do also recall that in the appendix to Landon's 'Symphonies' (1955) a facsimile reconstruction was printed, presumably in response to Winograd's rather glaring omission.

The mystery mass by either Haydn or Mozart or Wenzel Pichl (mentioned in a Prague score) or someone else: The key is C Major, the disc is from 2002, and while I still have no idea how to upload a photo of the booklet, maybe a link to the ArkivMusic listing would be of some small use:
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Name/Mario-Schwarz/Conductor/89303-3

I note that in my original post I misspelled "Schwarz" by adding a 'T' - damn!, I really thought I had checked that specific point! Oh well....

Off to my dentist, whose chief customer I seem to be these past few years. Genetics have been very kind to me otherwise, but not in the teeth department. 'Bye. See ya later.

P.S. Back to separated T&T parts - does anyone happen to recall that in his notes at some point - Sym. 90 perhaps? - Roy Goodman made a remark that he was going to "dispense" with those instruments in cases where they weren't in the main score? It was that statement, and that statement alone, that completely turned me off to Goodman's series, and I never did bother collecting it. Arrogance! And lack of understanding as to WHY those instuments were kept apart....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 06, 2012, 07:48:49 AM

Misread the appointment card - half an hour later. Time quickly for this:

Thomas Fey. When his series first started I bought the first couple of volumes issued and was underwhelmed. And at that point I decided my exchecquer didn't need the added burden of buying a just so-so Haydn set, and I dropped the matter. But now, seeing all the glowing comments on this board, I'm going to poke around a bit more. Just ordered a used copy on Amazon of 34/39/40/50, chosen primarily because, if I were pushed up against a wall and ordered to reveal the ONE and ONLY Haydn symphony I would take to the proverbial desert island, it would be 39.* So when it comes, I'll re-assess and try and open my mind a bit more - keeping in mind that I was Haydn-trained on Beecham, Szell, Scherchen and all the old Haydn Society LPs, so the new wave styles take some adjustment even now.

* - on certain other days I substitute 102 for 39 for the island....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 06, 2012, 08:18:05 AM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 06, 2012, 07:31:54 AM
Quickly for the moment, gotta go have a tooth filled....

:o :o :'(

QuoteSt.Nicolai - My source had been Landon (Chronicle II:251-2) but he treats this mass rather perfunctorily and, though he mentions the (E) score you cite, says that the one with added instrumental parts was different and seems to imply that it was only mentioned at all because it was found in the same collection as the Elssler one. (He does however state that there are also trombone parts - another nod toward Michael Haydn's practices. If my recording adds trombones, I don't hear them - even the trumpets and timpani are extremely discreet.) Landon does reference Faber but doesn't go to the trouble of connecting all the dots. You have done so. Thank you!

I am reading Landon Vol 3 (Haydn in England) right now, in fact, and I have noted his tendency to blow right past some things that I would like more explanation of, while expounding ad infinitum on some others. :) Oh well, he is a god, so who am I to complain?

My suspicion anyway is that the original score in 1772 probably did not contain T & T, because they weren't readily available at Esterháza, they were borrowed sometimes, but unless this Nameday Mass was put on as a big production (easily possible), then probably the original didn't include them. Haydn did redo masses when they were finally submitted for publication though, ranging up to a full re-orchestration for the Missa Brevis in F (Hob 22:1).

QuoteI'm well aware that the T&T parts were frequently put on other paper and separated, and I know why. My memory of old LPs extends to the first-ever recording of Symphony 33, by (of all things) the MGM Orchestra, Arthur Winograd conducting - but no T&T because the parts, on separate sheets of course, hadn't been tracked down. By the time Dorati and Märzendorfer got around to their near-simultaneous complete sets, the parts had apparently been found, as they were used by both. I do also recall that in the appendix to Landon's 'Symphonies' (1955) a facsimile reconstruction was printed, presumably in response to Winograd's rather glaring omission.

Yes, big problem back then, I'm guessing this is why Landon's authorized edition was so welcome (although not by all, since it changed the entire perception of Haydn for some older guys (like Beecham, for example, who simply refused to play them). As you have seen from my essays here, I virtually ignore old recordings despite being upbraided by many who think I am wrong to ignore the state of the art at that time. I am more interested in the music than in the recordings though, so that area of ignorance on my part will probably remain unfilled (unlike your tooth). :)

QuoteThe mystery mass by either Haydn or Mozart or Wenzel Pichl (mentioned in a Prague score) or someone else: The key is C Major, the disc is from 2002, and while I still have no idea how to upload a photo of the booklet, maybe a link to the ArkivMusic listing would be of some small use:
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Name/Mario-Schwarz/Conductor/89303-3

I note that in my original post I misspelled "Schwarz" by adding a 'T' - damn!, I really thought I had checked that specific point! Oh well....

Off to my dentist, whose chief customer I seem to be these past few years. Genetics have been very kind to me otherwise, but not in the teeth department. 'Bye. See ya later.

The link was useful (it says the mass is in Bb BTW), but there are so many attributed masses (over 100 in Hoboken) that they aren't even listed in Feder.

The first 'Cäcilienmesse' of 1773 is the only 'Italian/Roman Missa Solemnis' that Haydn ever certainly wrote (Wyn-Jones pg 238). I am no expert on masses (they are the area least knowledge for me), but as far as diffusion of works goes, it is very credible to me that a contemporary mass at one of these remote abbeys (there are 3 widely scattered copies of this work) could make use of a Quoniam from a different mass if it was in the correct key range. Your notes say "C major" and this mass is also in C major, which makes me think Arkiv may have mistakenly printed "B flat" there. Anyway, if I was a betting man and some way to resolve this particular issue magically appeared one day, then my money would be on the Prague copy with its attribution to Wenzel Pichl. Pichl was a wonderful composer and follower of Haydn, and I can see that it would be very easy to attribute a work by an excellent student to the master. My 2 cents. :)

QuoteP.S. Back to separated T&T parts - does anyone happen to recall that in his notes at some point - Sym. 90 perhaps? - Roy Goodman made a remark that he was going to "dispense" with those instruments in cases where they weren't in the main score? It was that statement, and that statement alone, that completely turned me off to Goodman's series, and I never did bother collecting it. Arrogance! And lack of understanding as to WHY those instuments were kept apart....

Yes, that is arrogant. I'll browse my liner notes and see what context that is in. I am very pleased with Goodman's work with Haydn's symphonies, but that sort of things does grate. :-\

Cheers,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on April 06, 2012, 09:00:04 AM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 06, 2012, 07:48:49 AM
Thomas Fey. When his series first started I bought the first couple of volumes issued and was underwhelmed. And at that point I decided my exchecquer didn't need the added burden of buying a just so-so Haydn set, and I dropped the matter. But now, seeing all the glowing comments on this board, I'm going to poke around a bit more.

Not everyone here is an advocate for the Fey recordings. ::) I think that your initial reaction is more like my appraisal. But if you are curious, you can find many of them on Spotify so as to preview before buying.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 06, 2012, 09:02:45 AM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 06, 2012, 07:31:54 AM

P.S. Back to separated T&T parts - does anyone happen to recall that in his notes at some point - Sym. 90 perhaps?

Yes, in the notes to the CD with 90, 91, an 92.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan11/performance%20note.jpg)

This highlights three things that disturb me about Goodman's Haydn: the lack of drums and trumpets in some symphonies; minuets that are played way too fast; and turning symphonies into harpsichord concertos. I don't mind a discrete continuo but there is no harpsichord in real life, in a concert hall, that sounds as big, and as loud as Goodman's. He seems to be on an ego trip.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 06, 2012, 09:15:04 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 06, 2012, 09:02:45 AM
Yes, in the notes to the CD with 90, 91, an 92.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan11/performance%20note.jpg)

This highlights three things that disturb me about Goodman's Haydn: the lack of drums and trumpets in some symphonies; minuets that are played way too fast; and turning symphonies into harpsichord concertos. I don't mind a discrete continuo but there is no harpsichord in real life, in a concert hall, that sounds as big, and as loud as Goodman's. He seems to be on an ego trip.

Sarge

Yes, but let's look at just the trumpet notes for a second. In all of his symphonies Haydn was writing for the natural horn. In many of them, this included horns "alt" which is high, high, high! In the 19th century when valve horns came along, they couldn't play those parts, so the scores were rewritten and the horn parts were dumped and replaced with trumpet or cornet. All he is saying here is that he is going back to what Haydn wrote, not how a 19th century conductor or publisher thought it should be modernized.

I don't have documentation for whether there should be any keyboard continuo or not, so I don't have a dog in that fight. I have read what both Goodman and Hogwood have to say, and both make good points. I would submit that you are possibly using a bit of exaggeration to make your point though, Sarge. A harpsichord concerto? Well, maybe not. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on April 06, 2012, 09:32:46 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 06, 2012, 09:02:45 AM
Yes, in the notes to the CD with 90, 91, an 92.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan11/performance%20note.jpg)

This highlights three things that disturb me about Goodman's Haydn: the lack of drums and trumpets in some symphonies; minuets that are played way too fast; and turning symphonies into harpsichord concertos. I don't mind a discrete continuo but there is no harpsichord in real life, in a concert hall, that sounds as big, and as loud as Goodman's. He seems to be on an ego trip.

Sarge

Your post highlights three opinions I do not share: :P

As Gurn pointed out, if the horns Haydn envisioned were not to be used, then it is better not to use any.
Goodman's keyboard continuo is unabtrusive and provides a subtle highlight to the sound of the ensemble. I prefer the sound of his band to Hogwood's precisely for this reason.
Playing the minuets at a tempo more appropriate to Haydn's day does not produce "too fast" movements but corrects the distortion of the Romantics.

;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 06, 2012, 09:53:36 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 06, 2012, 09:15:04 AM
I don't have documentation for whether there should be any keyboard continuo or not, so I don't have a dog in that fight. I have read what both Goodman and Hogwood have to say, and both make good points. I would submit that you are possibly using a bit of exaggeration to make your point though, Sarge. A harpsichord concerto? Well, maybe not. :D

8)

I wasn't exaggerating. No harpsichord I've ever heard in the concert hall has sounded as loud as Goodman's recordings. They must have thrust a microphone into the works and then boosted the volume on the mixing board. It distorts the orchestral balance. This is not what a HIP band sounds like live, not even in a smallish baroque room. His constant pounding is annoying anyway...and would be even with a proper balance.

But of course you have your own ears and can hear it the way you like. ;)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 06, 2012, 09:55:19 AM

Quote from: Arnold on April 06, 2012, 09:32:46 AM
Goodman's keyboard continuo is unabtrusive

That's hysterically funny. Good one, Arnold :D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on April 06, 2012, 10:01:48 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 06, 2012, 09:55:19 AM
That's hysterically funny. Good one, Arnold :D

Sarge

Can you name one where you find the keyboard too loud? I am mystified by your comments since they diverge entirely from my own experience, which if anything, reflects that often I do not hear the harpsichord clearly at all other than adding a slight brittleness to the sound..

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 06, 2012, 10:01:52 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 06, 2012, 09:53:36 AM
I wasn't exaggerating. No harpsichord I've ever heard in the concert hall has sounded as loud as Goodman's recordings. They must have thrust a microphone into the works and then boosted the volume on the mixing board. It distorts the orchestral balance. This is not what a HIP band sounds like live, not even in a smallish baroque room. His constant pounding is annoying anyway...and would be even with a proper balance.

But of course you have your own ears and can hear it the way you like. ;)

Sarge

:) Back at'cha! But really, I just can't hear what you are describing. I'm glad, in a way, since it doesn't sound pretty to me! :o :o

The minuet thing I find interesting, BTW. In #98, for example, Haydn's autograph score is marked "Allegro molto". I don't know how one would play that other than fast. :-\

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Savall7lastcover.jpg)
Le Concert des Nations; Savall - Hob 20_1 The Seven Last Words - Orchestral version pt 1 - L'Introduzione: Maestoso ed Adagio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 06, 2012, 10:26:36 AM

The dentist was so utterly fun, thanks.... (actually I've spent so much time in a dental chair over the years, I barely notice any longer)

Things to say - gosh, I'm glad I joined this!!! One, about the comments on high horns and trumpets and such: Way way back in the early 50s when the Haydn Society (remember that was Landon's baby) decided to record Sym. 56, they rounded up a couple of players in Vienna who could handle the high horns - but they couldn't find any instruments! As Gurn pointed out, valve horns in the 19th C. couldn't handle some of those high tones (no wonder 51 wasn't recorded until the 1960s!). So what the Haydn Society did was commission an instrument maker to literally create two new "old" high horns in C and use them, along with two (modern, I think) trumpets, in their for-the-time rather spectacular recording. Oddly, one of the players they got to handle one of the horns was Helmut Wobitsch, who was actually a trumpeter - but he also played posthorn, as in the Haydn Society recording of that Mozart serenade. And as the posthorn is a natural horn anyway, all Wobitsch had to do was adjust for the range.

Old Haydn: In general I don't care to worry about what has gone by the wayside, but there are exceptions. I don't care how out-of-date the performance style, or how full of errors the scores, etc., etc., I would simply not want to live without Hermann Scherchen's readings of 44, 49, 80, 92 and 98. Or Hans Rosbaud's 92. Or Beecham's and Szell's 93 and 97. What I regret I am forced to live without, because I can't play LPs and nobody has reissued them, is Anton Heiller's 26, Franz Litschauer's 6-7-8, and practically all of the early-60s recordings by Max Goberman, with 41 most notably being among the handful of greatest Haydn recordings ever IMO. Imagine: Goberman goes to record, simultaneously, the complete Haydn Symphonies and the complete Vivaldi Concertos, in a subscription edition that includes the printed scores bound into the record sleeve! (A cheaper version without scores, for those who couldn't read music, was also available.) I don't remember how far he got with Vivaldi, but he made it to perhaps a third of the way into Haydn and then had the absolute effrontery to drop dead of a heart attach, age 51. To this day I have never forgiven him....

Obtrusive harpsichord: Generally, it's discrete or it's an annoyance, I agree with the posters who have made this point. One exception, again sorely missed from old recordings: A version of that little Symphony 'B' done c.1959 (i.e. stereo), where the conductor (whose name I forget) had Kurt Rapf at harpsichord and gave him free rein to play the thing pretty much as a divertimento for harpsichord with orch. accompaniment. For such a primitive symphony it worked wonderfully; I'd hate to have that done routinely, but as a lesson to listeners of what could be possible, it was great.

Mysterious Mass in whatever key: The CD doesn't give the key; I hadn't bothered to notice that Arkiv did. But it is C Major, I just put the disc on and then went to the piano to verify. (Which is what I'd done the first time, but I thought, hey, I'm old, maybe I confused a white key and a black one.....nope, I didn't. C.) For me the weirdest part is why one section, the Quoniam, is so blatantly stolen from the Missa Cellensis of 1767 (not '73, Gurn - or are you thinking of another Mass - the only '73 one I know is St.Nicolai), and the rest is clearly not at the same level. Pichl - good symphonies, excellent chamber music, but I've never heard a note of his vocal work, and just because a composer is good on one level means nothing on another. One of my great loves in this period is Antonio Rosetti, whose symphonies and wind divertimenti are anywhere from good to very good to magnificent. But his vocal stuff?

My wife's got a project due and needs the computer. More later

Uncle Connie (sic! - it's actually Conrad)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on April 06, 2012, 11:00:38 AM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 06, 2012, 10:26:36 AM
The dentist was so utterly fun, thanks.... (actually I've spent so much time in a dental chair over the years, I barely notice any longer)

Things to say - gosh, I'm glad I joined this!!! One, about the comments on high horns and trumpets and such: Way way back in the early 50s when the Haydn Society (remember that was Landon's baby) decided to record Sym. 56, they rounded up a couple of players in Vienna who could handle the high horns - but they couldn't find any instruments! As Gurn pointed out, valve horns in the 19th C. couldn't handle some of those high tones (no wonder 51 wasn't recorded until the 1960s!). So what the Haydn Society did was commission an instrument maker to literally create two new "old" high horns in C and use them, along with two (modern, I think) trumpets, in their for-the-time rather spectacular recording. Oddly, one of the players they got to handle one of the horns was Helmut Wobitsch, who was actually a trumpeter - but he also played posthorn, as in the Haydn Society recording of that Mozart serenade. And as the posthorn is a natural horn anyway, all Wobitsch had to do was adjust for the range.

Old Haydn: In general I don't care to worry about what has gone by the wayside, but there are exceptions. I don't care how out-of-date the performance style, or how full of errors the scores, etc., etc., I would simply not want to live without Hermann Scherchen's readings of 44, 49, 80, 92 and 98. Or Hans Rosbaud's 92. Or Beecham's and Szell's 93 and 97. What I regret I am forced to live without, because I can't play LPs and nobody has reissued them, is Anton Heiller's 26, Franz Litschauer's 6-7-8, and practically all of the early-60s recordings by Max Goberman, with 41 most notably being among the handful of greatest Haydn recordings ever IMO. Imagine: Goberman goes to record, simultaneously, the complete Haydn Symphonies and the complete Vivaldi Concertos, in a subscription edition that includes the printed scores bound into the record sleeve! (A cheaper version without scores, for those who couldn't read music, was also available.) I don't remember how far he got with Vivaldi, but he made it to perhaps a third of the way into Haydn and then had the absolute effrontery to drop dead of a heart attach, age 51. To this day I have never forgiven him....

Obtrusive harpsichord: Generally, it's discrete or it's an annoyance, I agree with the posters who have made this point. One exception, again sorely missed from old recordings: A version of that little Symphony 'B' done c.1959 (i.e. stereo), where the conductor (whose name I forget) had Kurt Rapf at harpsichord and gave him free rein to play the thing pretty much as a divertimento for harpsichord with orch. accompaniment. For such a primitive symphony it worked wonderfully; I'd hate to have that done routinely, but as a lesson to listeners of what could be possible, it was great.

Thanks for sharing those titbits from recording history, Uncle Connie. Regarding all those old-style Haydn, if you are a member of SymphonyShare (https://groups.google.com/group/Symphonyshare), you can ask around if someone has them and can make digital copies to download. :)

Oh, and I'm listening to Scherchen's 102 from '51 (from YouTube), as I type. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 06, 2012, 11:03:44 AM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 06, 2012, 10:26:36 AM
The dentist was so utterly fun, thanks.... (actually I've spent so much time in a dental chair over the years, I barely notice any longer)

Things to say - gosh, I'm glad I joined this!!! One, about the comments on high horns and trumpets and such: Way way back in the early 50s when the Haydn Society (remember that was Landon's baby) decided to record Sym. 56, they rounded up a couple of players in Vienna who could handle the high horns - but they couldn't find any instruments! As Gurn pointed out, valve horns in the 19th C. couldn't handle some of those high tones (no wonder 51 wasn't recorded until the 1960s!). So what the Haydn Society did was commission an instrument maker to literally create two new "old" high horns in C and use them, along with two (modern, I think) trumpets, in their for-the-time rather spectacular recording. Oddly, one of the players they got to handle one of the horns was Helmut Wobitsch, who was actually a trumpeter - but he also played posthorn, as in the Haydn Society recording of that Mozart serenade. And as the posthorn is a natural horn anyway, all Wobitsch had to do was adjust for the range.

Ah, that's very interesting. I wondered how they handled that, since I knew that once the truth was out, someone would try to do it right. This is very much in the same lines as The much more recent Ensemble Limoges having 2 Lira organizate constructed for their Haydn - Delirium" disk.

QuoteMysterious Mass in whatever key: The CD doesn't give the key; I hadn't bothered to notice that Arkiv did. But it is C Major, I just put the disc on and then went to the piano to verify. (Which is what I'd done the first time, but I thought, hey, I'm old, maybe I confused a white key and a black one.....nope, I didn't. C.) For me the weirdest part is why one section, the Quoniam, is so blatantly stolen from the Missa Cellensis of 1767 (not '73, Gurn - or are you thinking of another Mass - the only '73 one I know is St.Nicolai), and the rest is clearly not at the same level. Pichl - good symphonies, excellent chamber music, but I've never heard a note of his vocal work, and just because a composer is good on one level means nothing on another. One of my great loves in this period is Antonio Rosetti, whose symphonies and wind divertimenti are anywhere from good to very good to magnificent. But his vocal stuff?

Well, the keyboard will tell! C major then. OK, according to Feder & Wyn-Jones, parts of that mass (Hob 22:5 to avoid confusion) were composed in 1766, authentic fragments are dated to then. But other parts are certainly composed from 1769-1773. Watermarks on the paper, I think. Anyway, the latest scholarship (which could change tomorrow, scholarship being what it is) is that the mass was begun in 1766 and completed in 1773. Since it wasn't written for Esterhazy, or the Prince at all, this is understandable. IIRC Haydn composed it as part of a pledge for thanks for recovery from a grave illness.

Nicolaimesse was first performed in Dec 1772... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 06, 2012, 11:09:57 AM

Nice to see a matey little dust-up here in da Haus.

To-day, I've been digging the Schornsheim recording of eight concerti for divers keyboards.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 06, 2012, 03:26:00 PM

"Nice to see a matey little dust-up here in da Haus."

(How do you get those blue fields when you want to quote an earlier post?)

Anyway - dust-up? Don't be daft. If Gurn sez it, it's almost certain to be correct, because he's the one with more rerferences - and more recent reading in them - than I. If St.Nicolai is Dec. '72, that's it then; the booklet to the CD I grabbed to check says "c.1773" but it's the Barati reissued from the early 60s and I can't imagine anybody updated the notes for a cheap reissue....

Date of Missa cellensis - I think '66 is correct, and almost went back to change my post but didn't take time. Thanks, Gurn. As I recall the opinion was for a very long time c.1773-4 and Landon, somewhere or other, relates an anecdote about a couple of his colleagues nearly getting into a fist fight about this, because one insisted c.73 and the other was convinced it was c.66 or 67. Years later they found the title page of the autograph somewhere in Romania and solved the issue; I assumed that was it for the whole mass, but apparently not, they think it dragged on for all those years? Well, that's fair, it is by far his longest. I do recall that whoever the two would-be fighters were (Jens Peter Larsen and someone else - Brand, I think maybe?), both had died before the matter was resolved, so they never knew.

Bought a second volume of Fey today to go with the first - Amazon third-party sales, both so cheap I couldn't resist. Only about $5 each including P&P. I think they're MHS reissues, but who cares? The second one is 51, 57 and 58. Interested to hear 57 particularly because that was the symphony that first brought me to Haydn "fandom" - they played the now-ancient Szymon Goldberg recording on the radio, I was overwhelmed and 'phoned the announcer to get details, and went out the next day and ordered it. And the rest is history. (Of course Goldberg omitted the timpani.... 'twas a long time before I even knew there were any!)

How many H. symphonies have authentic timpani parts but no trumpets? I can think of just three: 13, 57 and 81. What am I forgetting? I don't think there are any with the reverse....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 06, 2012, 03:33:58 PM

OOOO - I just had this brilliant thought, and went and checked with Mr. Piano - That pseudo-Haydn mass we've been talking about really is in C Major, but the little Michael Haydn 10-min. piece that fills out the disc, now THAT one is in B-Flat! The disc doesn't tell us this at all, but that's where Arkiv picked up the different key signature....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 06, 2012, 04:25:44 PM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 06, 2012, 03:26:00 PM
"Nice to see a matey little dust-up here in da Haus."

(How do you get those blue fields when you want to quote an earlier post?)

Oh, that's just Karl being Karl. I rather think he was referring to Sarge vs Arnold though. They are the most peaceful of men (now that Sarge is retired, of course), so a disagreement is monumental! :D

To get the item properly quoted, you just go to the post you wish to reply, and in the top right corner of it click "Quote". Then your same little editing/composition box will appear only with the quoted text already there. You can break up longer posts as I am going here by typing
[ quote ] minus the spaces where you want to break up the text, and [/ quote ] at the end. You'll get used to it. :)

QuoteAnyway - dust-up? Don't be daft. If Gurn sez it, it's almost certain to be correct, because he's the one with more rerferences - and more recent reading in them - than I. If St.Nicolai is Dec. '72, that's it then; the booklet to the CD I grabbed to check says "c.1773" but it's the Barati reissued from the early 60s and I can't imagine anybody updated the notes for a cheap reissue....

I had only noted the fact moments earlier when I was looking up something else. First performance was on December 6, 1772, the Feast Day of St Nicholas and thus the Name Day of Prince Nicholas Esterházy. Liner notes love to use "circa Anno X" because it takes them off the hook for accuracy. Another very common thing in Haydn chronology is "before 1766". Well, there were 17 years worth of compositions before 1766, so that is singularly UN-useful. :D

QuoteDate of Missa cellensis - I think '66 is correct, and almost went back to change my post but didn't take time. Thanks, Gurn. As I recall the opinion was for a very long time c.1773-4 and Landon, somewhere or other, relates an anecdote about a couple of his colleagues nearly getting into a fist fight about this, because one insisted c.73 and the other was convinced it was c.66 or 67. Years later they found the title page of the autograph somewhere in Romania and solved the issue; I assumed that was it for the whole mass, but apparently not, they think it dragged on for all those years? Well, that's fair, it is by far his longest. I do recall that whoever the two would-be fighters were (Jens Peter Larsen and someone else - Brand, I think maybe?), both had died before the matter was resolved, so they never knew.

Yes, that pretty well summarizes what I found out. I think that the Kyrie and Christe were done, but the mass not finished in 1766. In 1770, Haydn contracted some illness which was so severe that he was thought to be not long for this world; so much so that brother Michael took leave in Salzburg and went to Eisenstadt to be with him. In the event though, he recovered and vowed to compose a work for the Pilgrim's Church at Mariazell, which was a place visited by and sponsored by the Esterházy family. If I had to sort all that stuff out, especially with the first 2 parts being verifiably authentic, and the later ones too, plus when B&H published it they did so with the wrong Kyrie which only adds to the confusion. Maybe that's what tipped Larsen over the edge! >:D

QuoteHow many H. symphonies have authentic timpani parts but no trumpets? I can think of just three: 13, 57 and 81. What am I forgetting? I don't think there are any with the reverse....

Oh, that's a good question! It could be answered, but sure would take some time! I'm thinking now of adding some fields for "Scoring" in my Haydn spreadsheet. That would make this sort of thing a snap to answer!

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Savall7lastcover.jpg)
Le Concert des Nations; Savall - Hob 20_1 The Seven Last Words - Orchestral version pt 5 - Sonata IV. Largo

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 06, 2012, 04:49:05 PM

Truly, 'twas just myself being me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 06, 2012, 04:52:16 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 06, 2012, 04:49:05 PM
Truly, 'twas just myself being me.

Yep, as we say, just Karl being Karl...

...wait, do we say that?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 06, 2012, 04:55:09 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 06, 2012, 04:52:16 PM
Yep, as we say, just Karl being Karl...

...wait, do we say that?

I do.... with more adjectives, of course.

Well, to myself... :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Savall7lastcover.jpg)
Le Concert des Nations; Savall - Hob 20_1 The Seven Last Words - Orchestral version pt 7 - Sonata VI. Lento

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 06, 2012, 05:11:36 PM

Oh, nor durst I speculate which adjectives.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 06, 2012, 05:13:57 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 06, 2012, 05:11:36 PM
Oh, nor durst I speculate which adjectives.

Suffice to say, they are the colorful ones. 0:)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnMinkowskicover.jpg)
Musicians of the Louvre, Grenoble \ Minkowski - Hob 01_100 Symphony in G 1st mvmt - Adagio - Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 06, 2012, 05:24:53 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 06, 2012, 05:13:57 PM
Suffice to say, they are the colorful ones. 0:)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnMinkowskicover.jpg)
Musicians of the Louvre, Grenoble \ Minkowski - Hob 01_100 Symphony in G 1st mvmt - Adagio - Allegro

You're gonna have to moderate yourself on this one, Gurn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 06, 2012, 10:13:20 PM

iTunes has an album of Op.50, Nos 1-3 by the Buchberger Quartet labelled as "Clean Lyrics".

The mind boggles.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on April 07, 2012, 04:53:52 AM

Ionarts-at-Large: David Fray on a Day in D-Minor
(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/04/ionarts-at-large-david-fray-on-day-in-d.html)

Quotecomplauding [kuhm-plawd-ing]
Gerund
1. The contemporaneous grumbling and praise of the presence of Haydn on a concert program, but performed as the first piece, thereby subliminally or overtly suggesting that Haydn is 'nice', but 'not really that important'. When of course he is that important. And more.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 07, 2012, 05:56:21 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on April 07, 2012, 04:53:52 AM

Ionarts-at-Large: David Fray on a Day in D-Minor
(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/04/ionarts-at-large-david-fray-on-day-in-d.html)

I love those rare moments when someone who actually 'gets' Haydn has the podium, if even for a moment. Nice reading. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 07, 2012, 06:10:02 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on April 07, 2012, 04:53:52 AM

Ionarts-at-Large: David Fray on a Day in D-Minor
(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/04/ionarts-at-large-david-fray-on-day-in-d.html)

Looked like a good program, I'm very fond of #26 so it's nice to see it performed, thanks for sharing, Jens.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 07, 2012, 01:49:46 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 06, 2012, 05:13:57 PM
Suffice to say, they are the colorful ones. 0:)

8)

In Texas, all the adjectives are colorful (they say).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 07, 2012, 02:50:46 PM

Update on my adventures with Thomas Fey: I got a little carried away by cheap prices for third-party copies on Amazon. The following four (sic!) are now on order:

1. 34, 39, 40, 50
2. 41, 44, 47
3. 57, 59, 65
4. 69, 86, 87

All four, combined, have set me back just over US $20 including shipping. I am a bit worried that there are so many cheap sell-offs - can that bode well? - but, I wanted to know, so I'm going to now a lot! And each of those volumes gives me at least one "special" favorite: (1) 34, 39 and 50!!!; (2) 41, 44; (3) 57 and (4) 86.

So what else did I buy today?

[asin]B006IZFMMM[/asin]

(If you want it but want actual discs instead of MP3, try Arkiv.)

Mogens Wöldike (1897-1988) had a real 'thing' for Haydn in his day, and recorded the six symphonies on this set in the early 50s. 43 and 50 were paired on a Haydn Society LP and those 'Haydn Society high horns' were apparently shipped to Copenhagen after being used in 56 in Vienna, and re-used in 50. 61 was also recorded for the Haydn Society but it was never released as the company went bankrupt. 44 and 48 were done for (English) Decca, the latter unfortunately without benefit of the high horns. And 91 was done for a Danish company and released on 78 rpms! - unfortunately cutting the repeats in order to fit those discs. Set also includes an eccentric and not-worth-bothering D Major 'cello con., and a handful of German dances. (Not included, darn it, are Syms. 99-104 which Wöldike did in Vienna a few years later for Vanguard; in those, they performed directly from Haydn's autograph scores, thereby fixing various errors that had crept in (e.g. the opening drumroll of 103 which had until then always started pp - cresc.- ff -decresc. pp.)

Until today, with this purchase, I had never ever heard 61 or 91. Didn't even know the latter existed! I, of the fondness for older versions, am in hog heaven today....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 07, 2012, 02:52:11 PM

"Image unavailable?"

Well, just 'click to buy' (but of course you needn't follow through) and it shows up.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 07, 2012, 04:40:54 PM

Third post today - do I have a real life?

Update on Thomas Fey, yet again. The first of my CDs arrived this afternoon - ordered via Amazon 3d-party seller yesterday! It turns out she lives 10 miles from me and went to the P.O. immediately....

Syms. 34, 39, 40 and 50. The first order of business of course was the greatest one, 39, once dubbed by a critic "The Fist" for its stern inflexibility. The verdict after one play, 3 mvts. very fine indeed, but I really prefer not to rush the first mvt. and I think Fey does. Perhaps I'll get more used to it but at this point I do think it's so fast as to eviscerate the tension more than a bit slower pace would. To me it's almost as if Fey is counting this in 2/2 instead of 4/4.

Number 50 - remembering my posts just above where I also got the aged Wöldike reading of the same work - excellent but I do still like some things in Wöldike better. Points in favor of Fey: He does use a continuo, and even though Wöldike was using those special high horns we've mentioned, Fey brings them out much better. And also Wöldike takes the Minuet too slow - they all did back then - though not nearly as draggy as, say, Beecham (most of the time) or e.g. Bruno Walter.... Points in favor of Wöldike, the sense of 'theatre' (remember this symphony derives from a marionette opera prelude) is much stronger at the outset and much more fulfilled by the finale; in other words, I hear Wöldike playing a sequence of interrelated and progressive movements in a cohesive order, vs. Fey just playing four movements. This is the sort of intangible review comment that I normally abhor; how the hell can anyone possibly "hear" something like that in a symphony? But that's what popped into my febrile (feeble?) brain, so I typed it. Sue me.

Number 34 - first movement, no thanks. I get no sense at all of the Baroque stateliness from which this movement derives. Fey is all artifice, and beautifully played artifice, lovely to hear on that level, but frankly it almost - not quite - brings Movement One down to the superficiality of the following three. Maybe that's a plus after all; this is really a great symphony for one movement only, and as such is all out of balance. I think however I'd rather hear Haydn unbalanced than Haydn diminished.

Haven't played 40 yet. Definitely one of the Haydn things low on my popularity list. As another anecdote from music's Neanderthal period, I first heard this on a monaural 45-rpm (sic!) English disc, conducted by Beecham. He treated it as one of his famous "lollipops," light and facile and essentially empty. I've since heard Dorati and Fischer and a couple of others, and you know what? Much though I love Haydn, Beecham may have had a point....

Sincerely yours,

Uncle Connie

who is an only child and so cannot be an uncle, and who utter abhors the nickname 'Connie.' In case you care

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 07, 2012, 06:29:32 PM

Conrad, thanks for all this info on classic recordings. I know a substantial number of our Hausmates are very keen on this aspect of collecting, both CD and vinyl. And it is one of my pathological character defects that causes me to not be the one who supplies that need! So by all means, any info you want to share in this regard is appreciated, I know you will soon have a regular readership.

Some little nuggets: "The Fist"? Really? I've always been very partial to the g minor symphony, yet I've never thought of it in that way. I guess that's where imagination takes us. :)

Minuet tempo and speed. This is definitely something that needs worked up into a solid discussion. I'm going to work on that. I've been reading quite a bit in Landon lately, and I think I have a solid essay on it stashed away in my library too. :)

#40 is actually #27 in the New Chronology, and it dates from 1763 instead of the expected 1769 S & D era. I think that contributes to its more laid back presentation. 39 & 41 tend to beat up on it a bit. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnBruggenLondon1cover-1.jpg)
Orchestra of the 18th Century; Frans Brüggen - Hob 01_103 Symphony in Eb 1st mvmt - Adagio - Allegro con spirito

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 07, 2012, 07:45:17 PM

I noticed in my iTunes playlist that my Pinnock #39 was labeled as "The Fist", but don't think it's listed in the disc's booklet. I'll put it next to Bruckner's "The Saucy Maid" title, as in I will only be referring to the piece by it's number. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2012, 07:10:32 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 07, 2012, 07:45:17 PM
I noticed in my iTunes playlist that my Pinnock #39 was labeled as "The Fist", but don't think it's listed in the disc's booklet. I'll put it next to Bruckner's "The Saucy Maid" title, as in I will only be referring to the piece by it's number. ;D

Maybe Conrad wrote their list for them? :D I just looked again at Pinnock's original (Vol 1) and despite the fact that he plays up #59 being named "Fire", there is no mention anywhere of "The Fist". Not that I dispute that anyone hung any sort of name on a Haydn symphony (it was a sport, after all) but just wondering what their info source was, if not the original disk.

"Saucy Maid" indeed. :D I don't use names for any works. The concept just never appealed to me. Damned old stick-in-the-mud that I am. ;)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/Beethoven_9_HarnoncourtCOEcover.jpg)
Chamber Orchestra of Europe \ Harnoncourt - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 4th mvmt Presto - 'O Freunde, nicht diese Töne' - Allegro assai

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 08, 2012, 07:44:17 AM

(http://img.tapatalk.com/4c61fab9-b242-5d0a.jpg)

Please don't take this as a "Look at this proof, Gurn!!" post...I just wanted to share, cause it still throws me off guard, maybe users have access to the iTunes library to name tracks and albums.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2012, 07:53:39 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 08, 2012, 07:44:17 AM

Please don't take this as a "Look at this proof, Gurn!!" post...I just wanted to share, cause it still throws me off guard, maybe users have access to the iTunes library to name tracks and albums.

Oh no, I totally believed you. When it comes to classical music, nothing surprises me after seeing the "Overture to 'Le nozze di Figaro'" used to sell drain cleaner... :D

One nice thing for me about using Media Monkey as a player; it doesn't do anything except play music. I love that! :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Kuijken103_104cover.jpg)
La Petite Bande \ Kuijken - Hob 01_104 Symphony in D 3rd mvmt - Menuetto: Allegro - Trio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 08, 2012, 08:07:28 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 08, 2012, 07:53:39 AM
Oh no, I totally believed you. When it comes to classical music, nothing surprises me after seeing the "Overture to 'Le nozze di Figaro'" used to sell drain cleaner... :D

One nice thing for me about using Media Monkey as a player; it doesn't do anything except play music. I love that! :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Kuijken103_104cover.jpg)
La Petite Bande \ Kuijken - Hob 01_104 Symphony in D 3rd mvmt - Menuetto: Allegro - Trio

I may have to checkout Media Monkey. I like iTunes, but sometimes the "grace note" that identifies tracks from the discs you burn are sometimes out of sync and confusing.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2012, 08:16:54 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 08, 2012, 08:07:28 AM
I may have to checkout Media Monkey. I like iTunes, but sometimes the "grace note" that identifies tracks from the discs you burn are sometimes out of sync and confusing.

Well, I do all my tagging in a lovely little piece of freeware called (amazingly) "MP3 Tag". Download anywhere. Then I turn off tag seeking features in Media Monkey and only allow it to play what it finds on my hard drive(s). The result is that I get what I want and not what my software wants. :)

There was a major upgrade to MM not long ago (now version 4) but I didn't like it and have continued on using Version 3, which has always been especially nice and easy to use. The upgrade caters to folks who use all sorts of media types (to the detriment of plain old music listeners, of course), which I only use flac and mp3 anyway.

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKuijken88_92cover.jpg)
La Petite Bande; Kuijken - Hob 01_088 Symphony #88 in G 3rd mvmt - Allegretto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 08, 2012, 08:40:31 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 08, 2012, 08:16:54 AM
Well, I do all my tagging in a lovely little piece of freeware called (amazingly) "MP3 Tag". Download anywhere. Then I turn off tag seeking features in Media Monkey and only allow it to play what it finds on my hard drive(s). The result is that I get what I want and not what my software wants. :)

There was a major upgrade to MM not long ago (now version 4) but I didn't like it and have continued on using Version 3, which has always been especially nice and easy to use. The upgrade caters to folks who use all sorts of media types (to the detriment of plain old music listeners, of course), which I only use flac and mp3 anyway.

8)

Sounds like I need to give it a try. Thanks, Gurn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on April 08, 2012, 08:42:41 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 08, 2012, 08:07:28 AM
I may have to checkout Media Monkey. I like iTunes, but sometimes the "grace note" that identifies tracks from the discs you burn are sometimes out of sync and confusing.

Just for playing, Media Monkey is good, as is (at least that's the word; i've only just intstalled it after finalloy chucking iTunes which continued to crash my computer) foobar2000 (http://www.foobar2000.org/). The king of tagging and library management, if you are not afraid of complexity, is http://musichi.eu/ (http://musichi.eu/). Built from scratch for the obsessive compulsive classical music freak.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2012, 08:57:01 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on April 08, 2012, 08:42:41 AM
Just for playing, Media Monkey is good, as is (at least that's the word; i've only just intstalled it after finalloy chucking iTunes which continued to crash my computer) foobar2000 (http://www.foobar2000.org/). The king of tagging and library management, if you are not afraid of complexity, is http://musichi.eu/ (http://musichi.eu/). Built from scratch for the obsessive compulsive classical music freak.

You're right about that. But I thank god that I'm not OCD laden! ( ::) ). I couldn't do much with Foobar because it just was more complex in all ways than where I cared to be. But yes, just for playing music, Media Monkey is hard to beat.

I rip in dBpoweramp and/or EAC
Tag in MP3Tag
Play in Media Monkey

I know that Foobar does all of these things excellently, but I strongly doubt it does any of them better, and I know it doesn't do any of them easier! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 08, 2012, 12:32:39 PM

Okay, ready? It's Easter. I'm not doing much of anything else. Unlike Gurn, I do seem to have the OCD bug at times. And so just for the hell of it I made a list of all the nicknames I have ever come across for Haydn symphonies. Sources: Many and varied. Most of these are well known. A few not. Some date back as far as the old 'High Fidelity' magazine and one of its founding reviewers, Cornelius G. Burke, who also happened to be a Haydn nut and even published a book, "The Collector's Haydn," in '58 or '59 that purported to be a complete discography for the time. (I mention him only because I once posted a similar list to the Amazon forum and several Haydn-savvy people had never heard a few of these - and mostly they were the ones where Burke was my source. Maybe he invented them? 'Janus' for 97 is specifically his doing, because he said so. The others? I dunno, I'm just the scribe in this case.)

Anybody having any additional, I'd love to know them.

6 - Morning
7 - Mid-day
8 - Evening and the Storm ((note, these first three are the ONLY ones added by Haydn himself))
13 - Jupiter
22 - Philosopher
26 - Lamentation
30 - Alleluia
31 - Horn-signal (or 'Auf dem Anstand')
35 - Spring
38 - Echo
39 - Fist
43 - Mercury
44 - Mourning
45 - Farewell
47 - Palindrome
48 - Maria Theresia
49 - Passion
53 - Imperial
55 - Schoolmaster
59 - Fire
60 - Absent-minded
63 - La Roxelane
64 - Tempora mutantur
69 - Laudon
73 - La Chasse
77 - Don Ottavio
82 - Bear
83 - Hen
85 - Queen of France
88 - Letter 'V'
92 - Oxford
93 - Great Bassoon Joke ((not actually a 'nickname,' rather a descriptor by Sir Donald Tovey that seems to follow the symphony everywhere....))
94 - Surprise
96 - Miracle
97 - Janus
100 - Military
101 - Clock
[102 - the REAL Miracle - and since nicknames seem to equal popularity, could we please move 96's designator to this one?]
103 - Drum-roll
104 - London

Happy Chocolate Bunny Day to all!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on April 08, 2012, 12:54:44 PM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 08, 2012, 12:32:39 PM
Okay, ready? It's Easter. I'm not doing much of anything else...
Anybody having any additional, I'd love to know them.

Happy Chocolate Bunny Day to all!

1.) It's easter. Listen to Symphony no. 26, "Lamentatione", Haydn's (explicit) "Easter Symphony"

2.) How, how, just how could you forget and/or leave out the nickname of Haydn's Symphony No.99 -- "The Cat"?!*

* http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2294.msg583387.html#msg583387 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,2294.msg583387.html#msg583387)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on April 08, 2012, 12:56:52 PM

As Jens said.

You must include "The Cat".

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/93/Cat_poster_2.jpg/742px-Cat_poster_2.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 08, 2012, 03:04:25 PM

The easy way for me to have omitted "The Cat" is the one I chose, viz. I'd never heard it before. Thanks, guys! Come to think on it, that very last wind chord at the end of the slow intro. to the first mvt. does sound a bit like a cat yawning. (I wonder why it really got the nickname - any idea?)

Now playing: Sym. 26 as instructed. Fine choice!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on April 08, 2012, 03:06:18 PM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 08, 2012, 03:04:25 PM
The easy way for me to have omitted "The Cat" is the one I chose, viz. I'd never heard it before. Thanks, guys! Come to think on it, that very last wind chord at the end of the slow intro. to the first mvt. does sound a bit like a cat yawning. (I wonder why it really got the nickname - any idea?)

Now playing: Sym. 26 as instructed. Fine choice!!

You are forgiven -- it hasn't existed for very long.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 08, 2011, 06:25:58 AM
99 is one of my favorites. I don't understand though why it hasn't acquired the nickname Die Katze (the Cat). The second subject first movement sounds like a meow to me 8) 80 in D minor is another favorite. Some of those written around the time of the Horn Signal have tremendous music for horns too, which I love. I just can't remember which ones! Damn Papa for composing too many to remember ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on April 09, 2012, 01:49:08 AM

(http://www.seenandheard-international.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Haydn_SyMphony_no.99_3.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 09, 2012, 04:41:20 AM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 08, 2012, 12:32:39 PM
[102 - the REAL Miracle - and since nicknames seem to equal popularity, could we please move 96's designator to this one?]

Preach it brother!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 09, 2012, 05:00:53 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 06, 2012, 02:37:41 AM
Oh heavens. I haven't heard any I've disliked yet. I suppose if I had to pick, say, four, it would be these:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/dec11/haydn5354fey.jpg) (http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/dec11/haydn707375frey.jpg)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/dec11/haydn3934frey.jpg) (http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/dec11/haydn31fey.jpg)

Thank you, again, for this, Sarge. The economizer in me wants to wait out the complete set — though in a perfect world, I should wish to buy each volume as it comes out, in greater foundational support of the endeavor. I do want to go ahead and fetch in a volume or two, and your momentary agony is dearly appreciated. : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 09, 2012, 05:32:29 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 09, 2012, 05:00:53 AM
Thank you, again, for this, Sarge. The economizer in me wants to wait out the complete set — though in a perfect world, I should wish to buy each volume as it comes out, in greater foundational support of the endeavor. I do want to go ahead and fetch in a volume or two, and your momentary agony is dearly appreciated. : )

Karl, I haven't checked this lately, but traditionally, BRO has a large stock of the Fey Haydn recordings at their usual good prices. It would be worth checking if you are interested in pursuing them. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 09, 2012, 05:34:13 AM

Thanks for the head's-up, O Gurn!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on April 09, 2012, 06:11:21 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 09, 2012, 05:34:13 AM
Thanks for the head's-up, O Gurn!

Also, as I said earlier, several installments are on Spotify. I may be mistaken but I think all of the ones Sarge suggests are there.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 09, 2012, 06:52:51 AM

Oh, well I've not Spotified.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on April 09, 2012, 07:04:39 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 09, 2012, 06:52:51 AM
Oh, well I've not Spotified.

There is a free option, although the $5/month subsciption I signed up for has been well worth it, if for no other reason than to be able to completely experience a CD before buying or not. I am sure not trying to be a shill for it, but I consider it one of the better deals.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 09, 2012, 07:11:30 AM

Quote from: Arnold on April 09, 2012, 07:04:39 AM
There is a free option, although the $5/month subsciption I signed up for has been well worth it, if for no other reason than to be able to completely experience a CD before buying or not. I am sure not trying to be a shill for it, but I consider it one of the better deals.

:)

Does that cut out ads? Drives me nuts listening a piece interrupted in between movements with an insurance ad...

...with that being said, I've really enjoyed Spotify, have probably increased my purchases by 50% by being able to sample discs in their entirety rather than 30 second snippets.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ataraxia on April 09, 2012, 07:14:24 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 09, 2012, 07:11:30 AM
Does that cut out ads?

Yes.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on April 09, 2012, 07:16:50 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 09, 2012, 07:11:30 AM
Does that cut out ads? Drives me nuts listening a piece interrupted in between movements with an insurance ad...

...with that being said, I've really enjoyed Spotify, have probably increased my purchases by 50% by being able to sample discs in their entirety rather than 30 second snippets.

Well, that is the downside to a free account. But the free option is there to get an idea about the product without committing any money. I quickly decided to invest $5 a month for full access with no ads. There are some things I don't like, like having some tracks grayed out among a CD of "complete" works, but this does not happen enough to be a deal-breaker.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ataraxia on April 09, 2012, 07:18:17 AM

Quote from: Arnold on April 09, 2012, 07:16:50 AM
Well, that is the downside to a free account. But the free option is there to get an idea about the product without committing any money. I quickly decided to invest $5 a month for full access with no ads. There are some things I don't like, like having some tracks grayed out among a CD of "complete" works, but this does not happen enough to be a deal-breaker.

It happens a lot with DG.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 09, 2012, 07:18:29 AM

Cool, may replace Netflix monthly account for a Spotify account.

Thanks, friends. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ataraxia on April 09, 2012, 07:19:17 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 09, 2012, 07:18:29 AM
Cool, may replace Netflix monthly account for a Spotify account.

Thanks, friends. ;)

I do $10 a month so I can listen through my phone...which I'm doing as we speak! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 09, 2012, 07:21:34 AM

Quote from: Ataraxia on April 09, 2012, 07:19:17 AM
I do $10 a month so I can listen through my phone...which I'm doing as we speak! :)

Droid or iPhone?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ataraxia on April 09, 2012, 07:28:44 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 09, 2012, 07:21:34 AM
Droid or iPhone?

iPhone 3G.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 09, 2012, 07:33:00 AM

Quote from: Ataraxia on April 09, 2012, 07:28:44 AM
iPhone 3G.

Thanks. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 09, 2012, 07:37:14 AM

Quote from: Ataraxia on April 09, 2012, 07:28:44 AM
iPhone 3G.

Lackey of the Evil Empire, eh?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ataraxia on April 09, 2012, 07:40:14 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 09, 2012, 07:37:14 AM
Lackey of the Evil Empire, eh?

Customer of, more like.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 09, 2012, 10:18:17 AM

BRO stock of Fey as of five minutes ago (11 a.m. Monday Pacific time):

94-95

83-84-85

34-39-40-50

at $6 a pop. But check every few days, as you well know they add/subtract all the time.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 09, 2012, 10:19:56 AM

Thanks for the research, Connie!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 09, 2012, 02:29:32 PM

Hi again. It's Mr. Obscure Stuff at your service. Today I have something that, for me at least, excites me a whole lot. Viz.:

For us older-timers with Haydn, the ne plus ultra is probably Max Goberman's aborted complete series, issued 1960-62; he got about a third of the way and then died at age 51. MAN OH MAN have we geezer-type fanatics hoped for a reissue.

Well, I found one. And I also found a reissue of the old Nonesuch (or Pye) series by Leslie Jones in London; not quite as exciting, but still a real find. (The tip, for both of these, was the review on ArkivMusic.com of the complete Naxos boxed set. Fascinating, if longish, commentary; you might enjoy reading it as well, whether or not you want the box.)

Go to this web site, and no it has nothing to do with Gurn translated to English:

www.haydnhouse.com/home.htm

If you do nothing else, look around, and then be SURE to take the trouble to play the little snippets of MP3 they offer. Especially the 48th. WOW! Talk about high horns....

(But no continuo, you'll notice. In those days the standard practice was, discrete continuo for symphonies through No. 40, none thereafter.)

I am now going to go buy a couple, and when they arrive I'll report. (Eventually there are a couple of Leslie Jones's that I want as well; e.g. best 75 I've ever heard. But Goberman first.) If they're good enough (they are apparently made direct from LPs) I'll buy some more. And thereby goeth the road to bankruptcy, as these aren't going to be discounted or put up on Berkshire.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 09, 2012, 03:13:49 PM

Update: Ordering is tricky, they only want PayPal in some form, or a paper check. I don't use PayPal. The check is in the mail, so it will be a min. week before I can report, maybe longer unless they reply immediately and use first class. Their interface to get to the shopping cart sucks, but I finally figured out the (very bad) system. Which proved irrelevant as I chose the paper check option....

At one place in the site it says that the price includes US postage, at another place it says you pay $2 per disc, so I included postage and we'll see what they do with it.

I ordered:

HS3 - Syms. 12, 51, 56 - I remember 51 and 56 as being absolutely stellar, hair-raising, and every possible superlative I can think of. Think horns!!! I don't remember Goberman's 12 at all.

HS5 - Syms. 3, 24, 41, 96 - The big gem here is 41, one of the most unbelievably good Haydn performances I have ever known in my life. 24 (which was the 'flip' side of the original LP formatting) is almost as fine, save only the long slow movement which I think is Haydn at his most wandering. I remember being a bit disappointed in 3 because of the continuo, which I felt needed to be stronger to really carry the music along. I remember 96 only for the corrected note in the Minuet, but it's my least favorite of the Salomon sets so I didn't pay that much attention overall.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 09, 2012, 06:00:10 PM

Got a new disk today, one that was rec'd here some time ago, and which I never saw what I felt was a good deal on it.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnFluteTriosKuijkenscover.jpg)

I got it brand new for $14 all inclusive. Not bad for an OOP 2 disk set! Now to pop it in for a listen. As you know, my rec for these Hob 4:6-11 trios for flute, violin & cello has been this one, on cpo;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnDivertimentiHob4cover.jpg)

and I still feel that it is an excellent choice. I have quite a bit of previous experience with the Kuijken's though, and I figure the Ensemble Sans Souci is probably in for a run for their money! No matter, it's a win:win for me no matter who turns out on top. I'll report back though.

Meanwhile, thanks, Conrad, for some interesting reading and research. I haven't been to that link yet, but I'm hoping they have something there for me, too! I had very close friend, now gone on, who started collecting records as a senior in high school, the year I was born (1951), and he had all the Leslie Jones LP's. He used to bitch loud and long that they weren't (at that time) available on CD. I might pick up a disk or two just in memoriam. :)

I assume this is the book you were speaking of?

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/CollectorsHaydnBookcover.jpg)

I bought it at a used book store about 15 years ago for the price on the cover. It is virtually pristine except for some age discoloration on the covers. I have read it a couple of times and found it at the very least highly interesting. The guy knew every record made up to that time, a veritable encyclopedia!! :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Tobiacover.jpg)
Capella Augustina; A, Spering Vocal Ensemble Köln - Hob 21_1 Oratorio "Il Rotorno di Tobia" pt 13 - Quando mi dona un cenno

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on April 09, 2012, 06:02:42 PM

I know not everyone enjoys his approach to Haydn, but...the third installment of Marc Andre Hamelin's Haydn series will be released next month. Like the previous two, this will be a double CD.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 09, 2012, 06:19:06 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 09, 2012, 06:02:42 PM
I know not everyone enjoys his approach to Haydn, but...the third installment of Marc Andre Hamelin's Haydn series will be released next month. Like the previous two, this will be a double CD.

While that is true for me personally, I would add though that he is one of the musicians appearing in that "In Search of Haydn" movie, and I was impressed with his obvious devotion to the music. If he would only give it a Schantz.... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 10, 2012, 03:43:34 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 09, 2012, 06:02:42 PM
I know not everyone enjoys his approach to Haydn, but...the third installment of Marc Andre Hamelin's Haydn series will be released next month. Like the previous two, this will be a double CD.

I have yet to dig in properly to the two-fer I've already fetched in.

And the Harnoncourt recording of the Stabat Mater landed yesterday! But it's a Teldec disc which seems to baffle Windows Media Player . . . bah, may be Thursday before I can listen.

On the bright side, though, the DG box of Lenny landed, too! No lack of Haydn joy, then!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on April 10, 2012, 04:40:28 AM

Bunch of Sony Vivarte boxes out, including Tafelmusik's Haydn symphs at a very fetching price. Looking forward to hearing this.

[asin]B005TLWOH2[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2012, 04:47:44 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on April 10, 2012, 04:40:28 AM
Bunch of Sony Vivarte boxes out, including Tafelmusik's Haydn symphs at a very fetching price. Looking forward to hearing this.

[asin]B005TLWOH2[/asin]

As you should. They are really an excellent choice, IMO. I got the same box in this format last year;

[asin]B001U0HB60[/asin]

because I had several singles but could never seem to get the remainder. For $15 I couldn't go wrong! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 10, 2012, 05:21:37 AM

Well, there's another Haydn trigger pulled . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 10, 2012, 04:25:37 PM

Hi people. To celebrate the one-day anniversary of the last message I posted here, I just bought two nifty MODERN Haydns.

[asin]B0008GIYFO[/asin]

This is not a new disc; this particular format dates from 2005 but the original release on Calig was several years earlier. For quite some time now I have been wondering whatever became of my Calig copy....I really do not make a habit of losing CDs, but this one just plain disappeared. So I finally bought a new one. Period performance (thus proving I'm not all about surface noise and distortion) and gorgeously sung. But if for some reason you want your XXII.5 even newer and even more 'authentic,' here's the other thing I ordered:

[asin]B001QSD8CW[/asin]

And the little note on Arkiv claims that this is Vol. 1 of the complete Masses, but if so it's already 2.5 years old and I haven't heard a whiff about Vol. 2. Any ideas?

I wonder which of these two up-to-date versiopns I'll like best, when put up against all the ANCIENT ones I have without so much as a peep of period-style about them? (Hint: The only one I'm aware of issued before the stereo era, on the Haydn Society LP label, has never been reissued, and even in my LP days it's one I was never able to find a copy of. So, in this case, really sorry, I can't comment to the usual accompaniment of horrid tape hiss. Jochum's has a very tiny bit, will that help?)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2012, 04:31:51 PM

Very interesting, Conrad. I haven't seen that first one yet, but the second has been mentioned here before with a good recommendation. That's one I'm likely to get, although I will be interested in your take on them when they arrive. I'm a latecomer to masses (not being inclined that way and unfortunately letting it affect my musical taste for a while), and so I started off with 4 box sets (Hickox, Weil, Harnoncourt and Burdick). Now I think it is time to investigate some of these single releases. These could be a good place to start, if the hiss-free aspect of the music doesn't make you just fall out... :D :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2012, 05:38:03 PM

What a haul at the mailbox today! I've been trying to gather up the various loose single disk PI chamber music, which can be a daunting task unless you are a seasoned Haydnista, accustomed to the hunt. :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnFluteTriosAgoracover.jpg)

Despite that it is the same music as yesterday's Kuijken Trio disk, I also got, and finally received, this disk by the Ensemble Agora which has been on the fringe of my radar screen for quite some time. It is going in the queue right behind the Kuijken, so verdict returned soon. :)

But for me, the item I ave been working on for actually 3 years now. This book, "Haydn, Mozart & the Viennese School 1740-1780" has been OOP since at least 2006, and copies of it have been ludicrously priced at up to $700 in the AMP. I wouldn't pay that for any book! But finally, after all this time, an honest seller was vending a nearly perfect copy for a very fair price, and I couldn't refuse any longer;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Heartzbooks.jpg)

It is pictured here with the other volume in the set that deals with Vienna specifically, although the middle volume is also a superb recounting of the stile galant in Europe in general. So now I can tuck in with some reading that suits me to a T. Heartz, for those who haven't read any of his books, is a very readable writer. The amounts of outright heavy music theory are nowhere near as bad as in Rosen, for example. It is music history at its best. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardSchornsheimHaydn.jpg)
Christine Schornsheim - Hob 16_29 Sonata #44 in F for Keyboard 1st mvmt - Moderato

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on April 10, 2012, 06:26:37 PM

Quote from: chasmaniac on April 10, 2012, 04:40:28 AM
Bunch of Sony Vivarte boxes out, including Tafelmusik's Haydn symphs at a very fetching price. Looking forward to hearing this.

[asin]B005TLWOH2[/asin]

I've ordered that, together with the L'arcobudelli boxes of Beethoven and Mozart.

It's true that I paid more than $15, on the other hand I get an image on the cover that conveys the divine better than Rococo stone angels can. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 10, 2012, 07:38:42 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 10, 2012, 04:31:51 PM
so I started off with 4 box sets (Hickox, Weil, Harnoncourt and Burdick).

I too have Hickox and Weil and am a fan of both, very much so. I have three or four of the Burdick single discs and find them very good, but never quite superb. Harnoncourt I haven't gotten around to yet. I also own Gardiner's set of the last six, and many of the earlier (analogue) releases from such English eminences as Preston/Guest/Willcocks/Atherton, who combined for a near-full set as I recall. (I'm missing a couple.) Plus some single discs. It continues to amaze me just how infectious I find Haydn's religious music though personally I'm about as religious as an amoeba. I think in part it has to be that, despite not having the same beliefs and feelings that Ol' Papa obviously did, I am absolutely mesmerized by the intensity with which he could turn his own belief system into music that can speak to anyone. Even an unbeliever.

And on a tangential topic, read this:

www.nytimes.com/2009/09/16/arts/music/16owen.html?pagewanted=all

on why Dr. Owen Burdick was not able to complete the entire set of the Masses for Naxos.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2012, 04:11:30 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 10, 2012, 06:26:37 PM
I've ordered that, together with the L'arcobudelli boxes of Beethoven and Mozart.

It's true that I paid more than $15, on the other hand I get an image on the cover that conveys the divine better than Rococo stone angels can. :)

Well, the Beethoven and Mozart disks hurt me more than the Haydn does (being boxed up and given away). I bought most of the Beethoven as it was released, which was a good thing since it has been virtually unobtainable since then. But the Mozart was already nearly unobtainable, and it took me several years to collect the single disks, at great cost. So if they are in a bot set, strongly advise anyone to snap them up (especially if they include any of the Tafelmusik disks along with). Great value!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2012, 04:19:47 AM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 10, 2012, 07:38:42 PM
I too have Hickox and Weil and am a fan of both, very much so. I have three or four of the Burdick single discs and find them very good, but never quite superb. Harnoncourt I haven't gotten around to yet. I also own Gardiner's set of the last six, and many of the earlier (analogue) releases from such English eminences as Preston/Guest/Willcocks/Atherton, who combined for a near-full set as I recall. (I'm missing a couple.) Plus some single discs. It continues to amaze me just how infectious I find Haydn's religious music though personally I'm about as religious as an amoeba. I think in part it has to be that, despite not having the same beliefs and feelings that Ol' Papa obviously did, I am absolutely mesmerized by the intensity with which he could turn his own belief system into music that can speak to anyone. Even an unbeliever.

And on a tangential topic, read this:

www.nytimes.com/2009/09/16/arts/music/16owen.html?pagewanted=all

on why Dr. Owen Burdick was not able to complete the entire set of the Masses for Naxos.

Ah yes, I forgot Gardiner in there too, although I have the separate disks, not the box. I like that Gardiner, despite it being big enough to be played at St. Peter's. :)

The Harnoncourt;
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHarnoncourtMassescover.jpg)

has some very nice mass recordings. As well as a Stabat Mater that exceeds Pinnock's earlier effort. There is an aura of relentlessness about the Paukenmesse and the Nelson Mass that really match up with the works' original intent nicely. I predict you would like them.

No, you're right, this is a discovery that I also made. You do not need to have any sort of personal religious commitment in order to fully enjoy the beauty of these works. I was later able to branch out from there and begin to enjoy Mozart's masses, and Beethoven's Missa Solemnis a lot more too. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 11, 2012, 04:21:27 AM

Incidental Haydn interest here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,304.msg619444.html#msg619444).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2012, 04:30:15 AM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 10, 2012, 07:38:42 PM
And on a tangential topic, read this:

www.nytimes.com/2009/09/16/arts/music/16owen.html?pagewanted=all

on why Dr. Owen Burdick was not able to complete the entire set of the Masses for Naxos.

Oh yes, I meant to say. Someone posted that link back when the Naxos Mass box first came up for discussion. I read it with interest at the time, and now that I have heard the entire, I feel even more strongly that Burdick likely got shafted. Which is not to say that Glover doesn't do a very nice job, but not allowing him to finish the project smacks of the sort of trite political bullsh*t that one hopes (in vain) to avoid. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 11, 2012, 03:12:26 PM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 10, 2012, 07:38:42 PM

And on a tangential topic, read this:

www.nytimes.com/2009/09/16/arts/music/16owen.html?pagewanted=all

on why Dr. Owen Burdick was not able to complete the entire set of the Masses for Naxos.

Admitting up front that this article may not give the entire story (i.e. the Trinity 'take' on matters), there are three specific things that bother me very much. One is the obvious, that Dr. Burdick did not get to finish the project he'd started. Second is the (minor, but annoying) mention that when Jane Glover took over, she changed the Latin pronunciation from Central European i.e. "Haydnesque" (e.g. Osanna in ex-TSEL-sis) to the English and American style (Osanna in ex-CHEL-sis). Fanatics such as, er, ahem, the present writer, do not like this. And third, Dr. Burdick identifies himself as an alcoholic, and it strikes me that dismissing him and in effect casting him to the wolves is a hell of a way for an alleged Christian organization to deal with something like that. It just so happens that I am extremely well acquainted with another alcoholic whose employer handled the matter very firmly but far more humanely, and I managed to come out of it without my life being severely shattered. So Good for Burdick for rebuilding things despite Trinity, and Nuts to Trinity for their part in it.

Now playing:

[asin]B001VO7O08[/asin]

Really yummy stuff, and cheap!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2012, 04:03:27 PM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 11, 2012, 03:12:26 PM

Admitting up front that this article may not give the entire story (i.e. the Trinity 'take' on matters), there are three specific things that bother me very much. One is the obvious, that Dr. Burdick did not get to finish the project he'd started. Second is the (minor, but annoying) mention that when Jane Glover took over, she changed the Latin pronunciation from Central European i.e. "Haydnesque" (e.g. Osanna in ex-TSEL-sis) to the English and American style (Osanna in ex-CHEL-sis). Fanatics such as, er, ahem, the present writer, do not like this. And third, Dr. Burdick identifies himself as an alcoholic, and it strikes me that dismissing him and in effect casting him to the wolves is a hell of a way for an alleged Christian organization to deal with something like that. It just so happens that I am extremely well acquainted with another alcoholic whose employer handled the matter very firmly but far more humanely, and I managed to come out of it without my life being severely shattered. So Good for Burdick for rebuilding things despite Trinity, and Nuts to Trinity for their part in it.

Now playing:

[asin]B001VO7O08[/asin]

Really yummy stuff, and cheap!

Conrad,
All valid points and hard to argue with. I am less rabid about the Latin pronunciations because I'm not convinced that either way is correct, but in the name of consistency I would have preferred to stick with what one started with. That said though, I don't hold that against Glover, I think she did a nice job in the pinch, but I do hold it against Trinity, as I can't see their rationale as anything but indefensible.

So you like those organ concerti, eh? Another stray that I failed to get my noose around. I think I'll catch it up on the next pass through my wish list... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2012, 04:08:45 PM

Ooh, I take it back; all the treasures of the Big Box have still not been plumbed!! Those 2 disks are in there, I just never got to them! :-[

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 11, 2012, 04:15:43 PM

Cor, not even Gurn has ploughed through all the Big Crate!

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2012, 04:20:31 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 11, 2012, 04:15:43 PM
Cor, not even Gurn has ploughed through all the Big Crate!

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

Karl, it is the gift that keeps on giving! After 3 years, there are still some disks (not many) that I haven't spun yet. Of course, I do have several excellent versions of those works, but still that's no excuse! :-\

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardSchornsheimHaydn.jpg)
Christine Schornsheim - Hob 16_31 Sonata #46 in F for Keyboard 1st mvmt - Moderato

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on April 11, 2012, 04:21:18 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 11, 2012, 04:15:43 PM
Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk 2

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 11, 2012, 04:25:19 PM

Gotta visit da Haus, even when on the go....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2012, 04:25:31 PM

Quote from: Arnold on April 11, 2012, 04:21:18 PM
:o

Yup, kinda scary, especially for someone like me who prefers the harpsichord.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on April 11, 2012, 04:38:48 PM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 11, 2012, 03:12:26 PM
[asin]B001VO7O08[/asin]

Really yummy stuff, and cheap!

I think I have a few of those by Ton Koopman.

[asin]B003XIO6LU[/asin]

Nice.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2012, 04:47:28 PM

Quote from: Arnold on April 11, 2012, 04:38:48 PM
I think I have a few of those by Ton Koopman.

[asin]B003XIO6LU[/asin]

Nice.

Yes, I imagine it IS nice. I have Koopman playing those same works on harpsichord along with a few others;
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKoopmancover.jpg)

which is an indispensable disk, IMO. I need to check out this one though. I have no problem duplicating material, at least not with Haydn! :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardAdlamclavichordcover.jpg)
Derek Adlam - Clavichord - Hob 16_29 Sonata in F for Keyboard 2nd mvmt - Adagio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on April 11, 2012, 05:13:12 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 11, 2012, 04:47:28 PM

Yes, I imagine it IS nice. I have Koopman playing those same works on harpsichord along with a few others;
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKoopmancover.jpg)

which is an indispensable disk, IMO. I need to check out this one though. I have no problem duplicating material, at least not with Haydn! :)

8)

I have the other Koopman set, and agree it is wonderful - however, I think there is only one work duplicated: Hob. XVIII:6.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2012, 05:17:13 PM

Quote from: Arnold on April 11, 2012, 05:13:12 PM
I have the other Koopman set, and agree it is wonderful - however, I think there is only one work duplicated: Hob. XVIII:6.

:)

Ah, even better then! I didn't pull it down to look, but I thought he played most of the Hob 18 concerti in there. ¡Bueno! :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Completebarytontrioscover.jpg)
Esterhazy Ensemble - Hob 11_108 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 5 3rd mvmt - Finale: Allegro assai

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on April 11, 2012, 05:45:30 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 11, 2012, 04:11:30 AM
Well, the Beethoven and Mozart disks hurt me more than the Haydn does (being boxed up and given away). I bought most of the Beethoven as it was released, which was a good thing since it has been virtually unobtainable since then. But the Mozart was already nearly unobtainable, and it took me several years to collect the single disks, at great cost. So if they are in a bot set, strongly advise anyone to snap them up (especially if they include any of the Tafelmusik disks along with). Great value!

8)

Tafelmusic in not in these boxes, but there's another set I have my eye on in which Tafelmusik plays some Mozart serenades and symphonies, plus a Tafelmusik set of Vivaldi and another of Tafelmusik playing Boccherini, both featuring Anner Bylsma. I already have at least one CD of the Vivaldi box (Bylsma playing cello sonatas) and most of the Boccherini I have from one of the Sony budget boxes that was released last year, which was Bylsma playing Boccherini. So I definitely don't need that one, and the Vivaldi is a low priority. The Mozart will probably be part of this weekend's order.

The order, btw, landed today, so I have them all in my greedy little hands even as we speak :)

Closer to thread duty: now listening to Beghin playing sonatas from the 1780s. Two more CDs to play before I finish the first listen to this set.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2012, 05:53:18 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 11, 2012, 05:45:30 PM
Tafelmusic in not in these boxes, but there's another set I have my eye on in which Tafelmusik plays some Mozart serenades and symphonies, plus a Tafelmusik set of Vivaldi and another of Tafelmusik playing Boccherini, both featuring Anner Bylsma. I already have at least one CD of the Vivaldi box (Bylsma playing cello sonatas) and most of the Boccherini I have from one of the Sony budget boxes that was released last year, which was Bylsma playing Boccherini. So I definitely don't need that one, and the Vivaldi is a low priority. The Mozart will probably be part of this weekend's order.

The order, btw, landed today, so I have them all in my greedy little hands even as we speak :)

Closer to thread duty: now listening to Beghin playing sonatas from the 1780s. Two more CDs to play before I finish the first listen to this set.

Oh, you will like that "Symphonies from Serenades" disk(s). I like those works anyway, and they do a fine job with them. Vivarte is my favorite label over the years, and I have managed to get most of the ones I want. It's hard to spring for a box when I have 90% of the singles... :-\ OTOH, when I price out the ones I don't have yet, I find the box costs less! :o Tough choices, amigo!

Ah, Beghin, 1780. Very nice! :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnTheatricalSymphoniescover.jpg)
Haydn Sinfonietta Wien \ Huss - Hob 01_060 Symphony in C 1st mvmt - Adagio - Presto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on April 11, 2012, 06:15:09 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 11, 2012, 05:53:18 PM

Ah, Beghin, 1780. Very nice! :)

Well played but I'm not sure I'm keen on all the instruments he uses. The fortepiano on this CD seemed especially tinkly. So when it finished I switched over to the first listen of an MI performance--Quatour Ebene doing opp. 64/5, 33/1, and 76/1. Apparently a live performance (I think this was their first recording--on Mirare). So far (now in the first movement of 33/1) they seem to be doing an excellent job.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 11, 2012, 07:01:59 PM

As to Manfred Huss, I'm rather keen to hear his 'Philemon und Baucis,' just arrived, thereby completing my collection of all three known versions.

[asin]B002OR182Q[/asin]

Currently playing in this domicile, the following, of which (brag brag) I have all known versions as well (six):

[asin]B00000JBFA[/asin]

Hint: From what I've heard of this one, don't bother. Sound is tolerable, performance decent enough, singing good to very good - but they're Russians!, fer gosh sakes, and there isn't enough Haydn spirit in there to fill a very tiny thimble. They try - and Bonynge really ought to have the idea well enough - but there are better, so why waste time with this merely 'acceptable' effort? (Kindly do not ask why I've done so.)

My favorite of the six, though I know the Bartoli/Hogwood has lots of partisans:

[asin]B0000059CE[/asin]

It's simply the one of the six with the fewest flaws and the most consistent overall "Haydnesqueness." (Good word if you ask me....)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: eyeresist on April 11, 2012, 08:45:52 PM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 11, 2012, 03:12:26 PMSecond is the (minor, but annoying) mention that when Jane Glover took over, she changed the Latin pronunciation from Central European i.e. "Haydnesque" (e.g. Osanna in ex-TSEL-sis) to the English and American style (Osanna in ex-CHEL-sis).

What the article said: "Mr. Burdick, for example, chose to use an Italianate pronunciation of the Latin texts; Ms. Glover opted for a Germanic pronunciation."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 12, 2012, 02:22:20 AM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 11, 2012, 07:01:59 PM
As to Manfred Huss, I'm rather keen to hear his 'Philemon und Baucis,' just arrived, thereby completing my collection of all three known versions.

Well, so perhaps you're a compleatist after all!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 12, 2012, 04:25:17 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 12, 2012, 02:22:20 AM
Well, so perhaps you're a compleatist after all!

Karl. Anyone who has more Haydn than I do is a completist by any stretch of the definition! No "perhaps" needed. :D

As to "L'Anima del Filisofo"I not only like Hogwood/Bartoli, but I'm not repelled by La Stagione either;
[asin]B000001TXR[/asin](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/512J3auuuCL._SS500_.jpg)

I've seen that Orfeo disk, but not tried it yet. Might be worth a shot. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 12, 2012, 04:28:31 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 11, 2012, 06:15:09 PM
Well played but I'm not sure I'm keen on all the instruments he uses. The fortepiano on this CD seemed especially tinkly. So when it finished I switched over to the first listen of an MI performance--Quatour Ebene doing opp. 64/5, 33/1, and 76/1. Apparently a live performance (I think this was their first recording--on Mirare). So far (now in the first movement of 33/1) they seem to be doing an excellent job.

Clearly a different philosophy. :) I have heard that Quatuor Ebene is quite skilled. You are seeming to confirm that. That is certainly a nice program they are playing!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 12, 2012, 04:40:21 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 12, 2012, 04:25:17 AM
Karl. Anyone who has more Haydn than I do is a completist by any stretch of the definition! No "perhaps" needed. :D

Je-je-je-je!! : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on April 12, 2012, 04:58:35 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 12, 2012, 04:28:31 AM
Clearly a different philosophy. :) I have heard that Quatuor Ebene is quite skilled. You are seeming to confirm that. That is certainly a nice program they are playing!

8)

;) "Quite skilled" is rather an understatement for what might be the only string quartet -- certainly of its generation -- on which one could any sort of consensus about it being in fact the best. These boys are amazing. When they're rested. http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/02/mozart-woche-salzburg-you-must-hear.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/02/mozart-woche-salzburg-you-must-hear.html)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 12, 2012, 05:29:09 AM

Quote from: eyeresist on April 11, 2012, 08:45:52 PM
What the article said: "Mr. Burdick, for example, chose to use an Italianate pronunciation of the Latin texts; Ms. Glover opted for a Germanic pronunciation."

Thank you - and my apology, I had it reversed. Teach me to type something from memory without bothering to check the source....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 12, 2012, 05:36:42 AM

Orfeo - well, we've got three of them up already, here are the others:

[asin]B000004CYW[/asin]

I like it too. As well as the Schneider. I just happen to like Hager better.

[asin]B000056PGD[/asin]

(There are various other editions of this performance, all ultimately pirated.) Don't bother. The sound is excruciating, you can't understand so much as a syllable of what Dame Joan sings, and really, with the other choices, there's no need for this.

[asin]B004RPQSG4[/asin]

Anybody for World Premiere of the whole opera? 1950, Vienna; never before heard in full form by any human anywhere. The sonics are best called "rugged" and the lead soprano is ghastly, but there is a good deal of excitement and intensity in much of the rest that no other version ever quite matches. Apart from sound, the Genio is the best of all, never mind that Cecilia and Joan and the Russian lady all sing the part in addition to Euridice, which is stupid....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 12, 2012, 05:49:27 AM

Ghastly lead soprano . . . all in a day's singing, really . . . . (← joke)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on April 12, 2012, 07:38:45 AM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 12, 2012, 05:36:42 AM
Orfeo - well, we've got three of them up already, here are the others:

[asin]B000004CYW[/asin]

I like it too. As well as the Schneider. I just happen to like Hager better.

Hmm. $12 on Amazon MP. The opera that's not in the Dorati box. Two of my favorite singers. AAM...okay, that one's been ordered.

Quote

[asin]B000056PGD[/asin]

(There are various other editions of this performance, all ultimately pirated.) Don't bother. The sound is excruciating, you can't understand so much as a syllable of what Dame Joan sings, and really, with the other choices, there's no need for this.

I've had almost uniformly bad experience with the sound quality on Opera d'Oro, so the SQ problem here may no be in the source material. I'm going to be ordering the Opera d'Oro issue of Marschner's Der Vampyr because I've been assured on the Havergal Brian thread that one has exceptionally good quality compared to most of their other releases, and because it's probably the only version available on CD. But if you come across another issue of that performance, they may be worth checking into, pirated or not. (Not that I've heard any of them, of course.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 12, 2012, 07:43:28 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 12, 2012, 07:38:45 AM
I've had almost uniformly bad experience with the sound quality on Opera d'Oro

+ 1

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 12, 2012, 08:17:28 AM

Well, thinking now of how rum life is. The musical world would be poorer if all the performances of The Creation were like Lenny's on DG. But I cannot help feeling that the m. w. would be poorer, too, without this fairly large-boned, but not musclebound, account.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on April 12, 2012, 08:40:05 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 12, 2012, 08:17:28 AM
Well, thinking now of how rum life is. The musical world would be poorer if all the performances of The Creation were like Lenny's on DG. But I cannot help feeling that the m. w. would be poorer, too, without this fairly large-boned, but not musclebound, account.

Of course, the Creation was always meant to be very large-boned! (See McCreesh, who uses 'original sized forces' of quadrupling everything.) http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/12/best-recordings-of-2008.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/12/best-recordings-of-2008.html)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 12, 2012, 08:49:40 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on April 12, 2012, 08:40:05 AM
Of course, the Creation was always meant to be very large-boned!

Fair point, too.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 12, 2012, 02:55:37 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 12, 2012, 07:38:45 AM
Hmm. $12 on Amazon MP. The opera that's not in the Dorati box. Two of my favorite singers. AAM...okay, that one's been ordered.

I've had almost uniformly bad experience with the sound quality on Opera d'Oro, so the SQ problem here may no be in the source material. I'm going to be ordering the Opera d'Oro issue of Marschner's Der Vampyr because I've been assured on the Havergal Brian thread that one has exceptionally good quality compared to most of their other releases, and because it's probably the only version available on CD. But if you come across another issue of that performance, they may be worth checking into, pirated or not. (Not that I've heard any of them, of course.)

I've heard the same Sutherland performance on two different CD reissues - the second one is pictured below, on Myto - and also on an LP set some aeons ago. They're all awful, and supposedly it's because the original source was someone sitting in the audience at the Edinburgh Festival with a tape recorder under their coat. I flatly don't believe that, more likely it came off the radio - but regardless, the sound is at best "rough."

Also not in the Dorati box were Le Pescatrici, La Cantarina, Philemon and Acide - of course, to be fair, I think only Philemon existed at the time in a performable edition....

[asin]B000001MIG[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 12, 2012, 03:05:57 PM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 12, 2012, 02:55:37 PM

Also not in the Dorati box were Le Pescatrici, La Cantarina, Philemon and Acide - of course, to be fair, I think only Philemon existed at the time in a performable edition....

[asin]B000001MIG[/asin]

The Dorati box claims to only have the operas that were written for the Esterháza opera house. Le Pescatrici, La Cantarina, Philemon and Acide are all too early for that, and Philemon (and Die Fueuerbrunst) are marionette operas so probably disqualified too. Which leaves only "Orfeo...", which was composed for London, of course. Haydn's operas have never received the acclaim which they are due. I have found all of these works to be most enjoyable!

I had some back and forth with Herr Huss through his rep at BIS, and I urged him to do "Le Pescatrici" as his next project. No word ever received on what he thought of the idea.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 12, 2012, 03:47:54 PM

Oh, I would hate if we left out one of my early favorites, Der Apotheker. :)

I think there are a couple of recordings of it, but this one has always satisfied me;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/DerApotheker.jpg)

Simple yet amusing. ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 12, 2012, 04:04:09 PM

Conrad,
Over the years, have you run into some good recordings of dances and/or marches? They are both sadly underrepresented in the current catalog, but I see releases from time to time, like a recent one on Australian Eloquence by the Academy of St Martin etc / Marriner that includes "German Dances", but doesn't say which they are. I have the great "24 Minuets Hob 09:16" disk by Dorati et al, and would be delighted to be able to fill out my collection of orchestral dances with some others of that nature, but don't know if they exist or not. Also, on the subject of marches, someone gave me years ago some MP3's of all the marches, but he had no vague idea who recorded them (they were on the radio, he says). That disk would just thrill me to pieces if it could be had. Of course, I have piano reductions of all those works, but it isn't the same, is it? :-\

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardOdiaga1cover-1.jpg)
Lola Odiaga (Fortepiano) - Hob 16_32 Sonata #47 in b for Keyboard 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on April 12, 2012, 04:41:02 PM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 12, 2012, 02:55:37 PM

I've heard the same Sutherland performance on two different CD reissues - the second one is pictured below, on Myto - and also on an LP set some aeons ago. They're all awful, and supposedly it's because the original source was someone sitting in the audience at the Edinburgh Festival with a tape recorder under their coat. I flatly don't believe that, more likely it came off the radio - but regardless, the sound is at best "rough."

Also not in the Dorati box were Le Pescatrici, La Cantarina, Philemon and Acide - of course, to be fair, I think only Philemon existed at the time in a performable edition....

[asin]B000001MIG[/asin]

Given what I've heard from some of these releases, I find "tape recorder under the coat" eminently believable. I have one issue of Furtwangler's La Scala Ring (Siegfried) in which the orchestra comes through rather clearly, and sometimes very loudly, but you often have to strain to hear the singers. Apparently whoever did the taping was sitting IN the orchestra pit, or at least very close to it (like first couple of rows). Most of these releases seem to be taped from back of the audience or something--muffled sound and so forth. Even if it were taped off the radio, I think the sound would be better. (I had a friend in college who taped every performance of the Met's Saturday afternoon broadcasts. I have no idea of where he is, if he kept it up after college, or what the state of those recordings are. I hope he was able to preserve them--they'd be a tremendous archive now.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 12, 2012, 04:49:15 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 12, 2012, 04:41:02 PM
Given what I've heard from some of these releases, I find "tape recorder under the coat" eminently believable. I have one issue of Furtwangler's La Scala Ring (Siegfried) in which the orchestra comes through rather clearly, and sometimes very loudly, but you often have to strain to hear the singers. Apparently whoever did the taping was sitting IN the orchestra pit, or at least very close to it (like first couple of rows). Most of these releases seem to be taped from back of the audience or something--muffled sound and so forth. Even if it were taped off the radio, I think the sound would be better. (I had a friend in college who taped every performance of the Met's Saturday afternoon broadcasts. I have no idea of where he is, if he kept it up after college, or what the state of those recordings are. I hope he was able to preserve them--they'd be a tremendous archive now.)

Come to think of it, when I was collecting LP 'pirate' operas back in the 60s and 70s, I had several with such excruciating sound as to imply that the tape recorder had been eaten for supper and resided inside the person recording. On the other hand, I once made a batch of cassette tapes for friends - of Haydn symphonies, no less! - by playing the LPs, many of which had fairly acrid sound to begin with, and then taping by putting the cassette microphone up close to the speakers. That's more or less what I meant by "off the radio," as I knew people who did that as well the same way.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 12, 2012, 04:56:06 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 12, 2012, 03:05:57 PM

I had some back and forth with Herr Huss through his rep at BIS, and I urged him to do "Le Pescatrici" as his next project. No word ever received on what he thought of the idea.... :)

Does this mean you're not happy with this?

[asin]B002EYMIPK[/asin]

Granted Huss would do it better, still, for an opera that has so much non-Haydn music in it (essentially faked by Landon), it will do I think....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 12, 2012, 05:02:50 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 12, 2012, 04:04:09 PM
Conrad,
Over the years, have you run into some good recordings of dances and/or marches? They are both sadly underrepresented in the current catalog, but I see releases from time to time, like a recent one on Australian Eloquence by the Academy of St Martin etc / Marriner that includes "German Dances", but doesn't say which they are. I have the great "24 Minuets Hob 09:16" disk by Dorati et al, and would be delighted to be able to fill out my collection of orchestral dances with some others of that nature, but don't know if they exist or not. Also, on the subject of marches, someone gave me years ago some MP3's of all the marches, but he had no vague idea who recorded them (they were on the radio, he says). That disk would just thrill me to pieces if it could be had. Of course, I have piano reductions of all those works, but it isn't the same, is it? :-\

As to the marches, I regret I can't help. Apart from the two on the Huss divertimento set, the only ones I ever came across were on an early 50s LP. And then there was one, just one, arranged for whatever the Japanese version of a brass band would be and included on a march disc I was once given, and have since passed along. (I got it for a Bruckner march. Whatever the disc was, it was more novelty than serious, and in any case Japanese discs tend to be in print for a very short time, and outrageously expensive.)

Dances: Today, in response to your question, I have ordered these items, without having the slightest idea what I'll be getting (but they were cheap enough):

[asin]B000024NC5[/asin]

[asin]B000E3J3PG[/asin]

and when they arrive, if they have the slightest interest, do not worry, we will work something out.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on April 12, 2012, 05:04:19 PM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 12, 2012, 04:56:06 PM
Does this mean you're not happy with this?

Gurn's rule of thumb is that if it's Haydn, there's always room for another recording. And another one after that....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 12, 2012, 05:06:54 PM

Just realized - the first of those two discs I pictured isn't for sale on amazon.com, I bought it in U.K. Here's their link:

www.amazon.co.uk/Dances-Worthy-Diabelli-Haydn-Schubert/dp/B000024NC5/ref=sr_1_19?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1334279128&sr=1-19

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on April 12, 2012, 05:09:06 PM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 12, 2012, 05:02:50 PM

Dances: Today, in response to your question, I have ordered these items, without having the slightest idea what I'll be getting (but they were cheap enough):

[asin]B000E3J3PG[/asin]

and when they arrive, if they have the slightest interest, do not worry, we will work something out.

Quote
1 new from $206.25 5 used from $9.99 1 collectible from $10.00

I assume you are referring to the used copies >:D

($206.25 plus s/h!!! I would think that would have been the "Collectible".)

ETA--after looking at the "used" prices that "new" price isn't as bad as it seems. Apparently HM used platinum as the material for this CD. I ordered the collectible copy. There remains one listing for used at $9.99 from UK vendor Zoverstocks.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 12, 2012, 05:15:04 PM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 12, 2012, 05:02:50 PM
As to the marches, I regret I can't help. Apart from the two on the Huss divertimento set, the only ones I ever came across were on an early 50s LP. And then there was one, just one, arranged for whatever the Japanese version of a brass band would be and included on a march disc I was once given, and have since passed along. (I got it for a Bruckner march. Whatever the disc was, it was more novelty than serious, and in any case Japanese discs tend to be in print for a very short time, and outrageously expensive.)

Dances: Today, in response to your question, I have ordered these items, without having the slightest idea what I'll be getting (but they were cheap enough):

[asin]B000024NC5[/asin]

[asin]B000E3J3PG[/asin]

and when they arrive, if they have the slightest interest, do not worry, we will work something out.

Ah, pity, those are my total too, except for this one;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKappsMarch3acover.jpg)
which only has 1 Haydn march, the one for the Royal Society of Musicians. It is very good, but I got that same one by Huss so this one has been in storage, so to speak.

Of the 2 dances disk, I have the second one on Harmonia Mundi, I really do like it, despite that they ignored many genuine dances and included several "not by Haydn". Nonetheless, I think you will find it a pleasure to listen to. The other one is new to me, I'll be interested to hear your take on it. :)

Thanks!

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnOverturescover.jpg)
Manfred Huss - Haydn Sinfonietta Wien - Hob 01a_02 Il Ritorno di Tobia: Overture in c & C

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 12, 2012, 05:19:06 PM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 12, 2012, 04:56:06 PM
Does this mean you're not happy with this?

[asin]B002EYMIPK[/asin]

Granted Huss would do it better, still, for an opera that has so much non-Haydn music in it (essentially faked by Landon), it will do I think....

Oh no, not at all. But A> I would rather hear Huss do it on PI and B> I would hope that he would mark which parts are by Haydn and which by Landon.

And of course;

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 12, 2012, 05:04:19 PM
Gurn's rule of thumb is that if it's Haydn, there's always room for another recording. And another one after that....

:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 12, 2012, 05:21:33 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 12, 2012, 05:09:06 PM
I assume you are referring to the used copies >:D

($206.25 plus s/h!!! I would think that would have been the "Collectible".)

ETA--after looking at the "used" prices that "new" price isn't as bad as it seems. Apparently HM used platinum as the material for this CD. I ordered the collectible copy. There remains one listing for used at $9.99 from UK vendor Zoverstocks.

I got the original (not the D'Abord) version on AMP in excellent condition for, like $6. Patience wins out in the used CD game... :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardSonatasRHeardcover.jpg)
Rachel Heard - Hob 16_28 Sonata #43 in Eb for Keyboard 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 12, 2012, 07:17:40 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 12, 2012, 05:09:06 PM
I assume you are referring to the used copies >:D

($206.25 plus s/h!!! I would think that would have been the "Collectible".)

ETA--after looking at the "used" prices that "new" price isn't as bad as it seems. Apparently HM used platinum as the material for this CD. I ordered the collectible copy. There remains one listing for used at $9.99 from UK vendor Zoverstocks.

The copy of this one that I ordered was $4.19 plus S&H, and the copy of the other one that I ordered in Britain was £1 +P&P of £1.26 = not quite $4. Of course, that UK disc gets delivered to a friend in Gloucester who normally would save it until the next packet of exchange things he sends me, but in this case he'll be able to hand it to me in three weeks when I get to London on vacation.

If ever I am caught by anyone paying $209.25 for a CD, unless perhaps it is personally (and certifiably) autographed by Mr. Haydn, I hereby authorize you to track me down and shoot me for the good of the planet. Twice in my lifetime, and ONLY twice, have I spent more than $30 for a single CD. The first was in 2001 when I bid on eBay way up in the stratosphere, because the proceeds were a 9-11 donation. The second was for a very hard-to-find OOP version of Michael Haydn's c minor Requiem which I had coveted forever and a day.

You cannot be serious about the platinum bit? Who cares? It isn't as if one is going to melt a CD down for the materials value - is one?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 13, 2012, 02:46:25 AM

The Gurn Rule. I remember hearing about it in discussions of the Budget . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on April 13, 2012, 09:53:23 AM

Finished off my first run through of the Beghin keyboard cycle last night with the final two CDs. Overall, I was impressed by most of it, except for the square piano (Tafelklavier)--the instrument I described as sounding too tinkly the other night--and the clavichord, which was interesting and important enough to explore, but ultimately not enough to keep returning to for those works. (In other words, I'm glad I heard them, but won't run to repeat them.) The works for which Beghin used harpsichord and various fortepianos, however, are more than worthy of multiple rehearings.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 13, 2012, 10:21:28 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 13, 2012, 09:53:23 AM
Finished off my first run through of the Beghin keyboard cycle last night with the final two CDs. Overall, I was impressed by most of it, except for the square piano (Tafelklavier)--the instrument I described as sounding too tinkly the other night--and the clavichord, which was interesting and important enough to explore, but ultimately not enough to keep returning to for those works. (In other words, I'm glad I heard them, but won't run to repeat them.) The works for which Beghin used harpsichord and various fortepianos, however, are more than worthy of multiple rehearings.

Jeffrey, overall a good, positive impression. Pleased to hear that. I have a lot of experience with clavichords and I can tell you that it is an acquired taste. If at some point you get to listen to quite a bit of it, you could come back to Beghin/Haydn and discover an entirely different reactions to it. Anyway, something that I learned (fortunately early on) is that because the clavichord is a very quiet instrument, the natural tendency is to crank it up. This not only spoils the lovely natural tone, but also makes you hear the mechanical noises of the instrument louder than the music. If you refrain from turning it up, you will really enjoy it a lot more. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on April 13, 2012, 10:29:04 AM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 12, 2012, 07:17:40 PM

The copy of this one that I ordered was $4.19 plus S&H, and the copy of the other one that I ordered in Britain was £1 +P&P of £1.26 = not quite $4. Of course, that UK disc gets delivered to a friend in Gloucester who normally would save it until the next packet of exchange things he sends me, but in this case he'll be able to hand it to me in three weeks when I get to London on vacation.

If ever I am caught by anyone paying $209.25 for a CD, unless perhaps it is personally (and certifiably) autographed by Mr. Haydn, I hereby authorize you to track me down and shoot me for the good of the planet. Twice in my lifetime, and ONLY twice, have I spent more than $30 for a single CD. The first was in 2001 when I bid on eBay way up in the stratosphere, because the proceeds were a 9-11 donation. The second was for a very hard-to-find OOP version of Michael Haydn's c minor Requiem which I had coveted forever and a day.

You cannot be serious about the platinum bit? Who cares? It isn't as if one is going to melt a CD down for the materials value - is one?

Guilty, as charged! I've paid up to $80 for one CD. I can't spend like that anymore though.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 13, 2012, 12:12:43 PM

Quote from: Leo K on April 13, 2012, 10:29:04 AM
Guilty, as charged! I've paid up to $80 for one CD. I can't spend like that anymore though.

8)

Yeah, see, it isn't as though I don't WANT to. It's that my wife has opted for affording ridiculous luxuries like food....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 13, 2012, 12:22:00 PM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 13, 2012, 12:12:43 PM

Yeah, see, it isn't as though I don't WANT to. It's that my wife has opted for affording ridiculous luxuries like food....

Yes, some women (and men) have no sense of relative values. Where is that food gonna be tomorrow vs listening to that disk at least 7 times before you get tired of it.... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 13, 2012, 12:22:27 PM

Oh, and: Now Playing:

[asin]B00064N7IW[/asin]

which isn't Haydn - yes, O Ye Who Doubt, I really can read - but it happens to be what's playing and is easily one of the dozen or so very favorite discs in all my collection, which is saying a hell of a lot. I note there was a smallish thread on him in Gurn's other board, several years ago, but there's not much to say when a composer's life work has thus far generated exactly ten CDs. The other nine are good or better, but this one is monumental. Don't wait for Christmas (it's not really very Christmasy anyway).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 13, 2012, 12:47:16 PM

Correction: Nine CDs for Cartellieri. I seem to have counted the second disc of his other oratorio set twice.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on April 13, 2012, 12:50:44 PM

You rock, Unc! Keep on keepin' on! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 13, 2012, 01:14:23 PM

Hey, people, this is off-thread a bit but I just couldn't resist sharing and asking if anybody has any idea what the point is?

Here's a perfectly innocuous little CD, of which two used copies are for sale on Amazon. Check the prices.

[asin]B0000061KX[/asin]

So I'm guessing I probably don't need to invest in this. But WHY?

I do so wish there were a way to follow these CDs and find out what becomes of them in future....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 13, 2012, 01:35:37 PM

They use a software program to price, and sometimes it just goes berserk. I have seen even worse than this, although this is a good example. You have to believe that somewhere, sometime, these sellers will notice that they aren't selling anything... FWIW, I have bought from Bull Moose before at very reasonable prices. I guess that's the tip-off that they aren't like Woody's or Any_Book.... ::) :D

8)

PS - I'd love to have that disk, but maybe for $13.98...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 13, 2012, 05:01:24 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 13, 2012, 01:35:37 PM
They use a software program to price, and sometimes it just goes berserk. I have seen even worse than this, although this is a good example. You have to believe that somewhere, sometime, these sellers will notice that they aren't selling anything... FWIW, I have bought from Bull Moose before at very reasonable prices. I guess that's the tip-off that they aren't like Woody's or Any_Book.... ::) :D

8)

PS - I'd love to have that disk, but maybe for $13.98...

Well, yes, that would make sense - come to think on it, I've bought from Bull Moose before as well, once in fact in person when we did the Fall Foliage tour....

So I took a chance and did some investigating, and ultimately I've ordered the disc for a total of $11.46. I was going to message them on Amazon and ask if they'd change the price, and then I had the bright idea to see if they had a web site and sold direct. They do. This disc was listed at $8.97 plus $2.49 shipping. Voila!

(Also found two used copies for sale on Amazon.de. Price about $20 each, plus shipping. A bit more than this was worth to me, but better than $6500. No copies offered in U.K., but one in Canada, price CD$ 55. Way too much.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 16, 2012, 04:48:46 AM

Lenny has landed! The NY Phil box, I mean (the DG box has been with me some little while already).

What to start with? Well, The Cat, bien sûr!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 16, 2012, 05:49:05 AM

The second theme, Sarge, plays as exceptionally feline here.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on April 16, 2012, 06:16:54 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 16, 2012, 05:49:05 AM
The second theme, Sarge, plays as exceptionally feline here.

Yay!

(http://www.seenandheard-international.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Haydn_SyMphony_no.99_3-214x300.jpg)

The cat is everywhere!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 16, 2012, 07:06:47 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 16, 2012, 05:49:05 AM
The second theme, Sarge, plays as exceptionally feline here.

Indeed, phrased purrrfectly 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on April 16, 2012, 07:10:55 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 16, 2012, 07:06:47 AM
Indeed, phrased purrrfectly 8)

Sarge

Turns out that Bernstein is good fur something, after all. I knew he'd get that pawed just right!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 16, 2012, 07:26:35 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on April 16, 2012, 07:10:55 AM
Turns out that Bernstein is good fur something, after all. I knew he'd get that pawed just right!

;D :D ;D

I like what he does with the Trio too. It's like we're suddenly thrust 100 years into the future and we're dancing in Vienna, in the summer moonlight, outside a glittering palace. Might be all wrong but it's beautiful. Played that way it does make an effective contrast between the stately Minuet and the vivacious Finale which is entirely in the spirit (as I understand it) of the Classical style.
Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on April 17, 2012, 05:55:17 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 10, 2012, 05:38:03 PM
But for me, the item I ave been working on for actually 3 years now. This book, "Haydn, Mozart & the Viennese School 1740-1780" has been OOP since at least 2006, and copies of it have been ludicrously priced at up to $700 in the AMP. I wouldn't pay that for any book! But finally, after all this time, an honest seller was vending a nearly perfect copy for a very fair price, and I couldn't refuse any longer;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Heartzbooks.jpg)

It is pictured here with the other volume in the set that deals with Vienna specifically, although the middle volume is also a superb recounting of the stile galant in Europe in general. So now I can tuck in with some reading that suits me to a T. Heartz, for those who haven't read any of his books, is a very readable writer. The amounts of outright heavy music theory are nowhere near as bad as in Rosen, for example. It is music history at its best. :)

8)

That is a fantastic resource, and one that I have checked out of the library, and renewed as often as I could - precisely because as you say, it has been OOP and offered at ridiculous prices. That is until tonight when I found a copy for a little under $75.00. Which is still a steep price for a used book, but compared to $400 or even $181 which were other copies I found, $75 was a no-brainer purchase for such a valuable source on the Classical period.

Thanks for reminding of it with your post.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 17, 2012, 06:49:10 PM

Hi. May I break into this symposium to post a review of a couple of CDs that just arrived?

I mentioned a couple of weeks ago that I had finally found a source for CD reissues of the Max Goberman recordings from the early 1960s, offered by a Massachusetts firm calling itself Haydn House. Not knowing the quality despite the hype on the web site involved, I confined myself to two of the eleven volumes. (If you buy all eleven at once you get them for the price of ten, plus $4 total U.S. shipping.) They arrived today and have been played. These are my thoughts.

WOW!

To break those thoughts down into their components: The CDs are produced using original pristine LPs, and presumably engineered a bit to minimize surface noise and remove any lingering clicks. Products like this are always a bit of a crap shoot, but in this case the result is absolutely magnificent. There was a reason the Goberman performances were legendary among old-time Haydn freaks in the first place; and sonic quality was one element that made us all sit up and take notice back when they were new. Haydn House does not disappoint; their hype isn't puffery at all, it's flat fact. I will gladly give them their $12 per disc for the rest of the set, as my budget allows; but see on for why this may take me a while.

To discuss briefly the specific works I got, and what's left to buy: Goberman managed to record 41 of the symphonies, plus a couple of overtures, before his untimely death. He did the first 24, less only 18 for some reason, plus H.I.108 (called in those days "Symphony 'B'"). The others were scattered, mostly in the 30s, 40s and 50s. Of the late works, he did none of the 'Paris' set, and of the 'Salomons' just 96 and 98. There's also an 'Oxford.' (My guess is that the "great" late symphonies were to have been used to anchor the volumes that also contained some of the lesser works, e.g. 68, 76, 79 and like that.) The two volumes that I received today contain: 3, 12, 24, 41, 51, 56 and 96. At the time, only Nos. 12, 56 and 96 had been done before, and by then 56 was deleted already. The orchestra was the "Vienna State Opera," meaning presumably the Vienna Symphony operating outside their contract to Philips; No. 3, however, was done by Goberman's own New York Sinfonietta, with which he had already recorded a lot of other things (notably Vivaldi, and an early effort at authentic performance of the Brandenburgs).

With only two exceptions - 12 and 96 - these performances were revelations at the time, and I would cheerfully put them up against anything that has come since. If you must have modern "period performance," then you will disagree on that level at least; but with the love and care and intensity that Goberman and his players showed for every phrase, I cannot imagine that merely bowing it better and using replica winds would ever make things any better. Obviously Haydn nuts won't settle for just one version of anything, and that includes me. But I am very, very thankful that I can now include these gems as one of the prizes on my shelves.

(And what's wrong with 12 and 96? Nothing. They're gems too. It's just that, honestly, I don't much like 96; and as for 12, of all things there was an even earlier (mono) LP on the Lyrichord label which I still consider one of the monuments of Haydn recording. The conductor was Wilhelm Loibner, and he also did 23, 29 and 30. I would kill to have that one reissued.)

But in my earlier posts, before hearing these, I made at least one mistake of memory: I had thought that Goberman followed what was considered "standard" at the time in adding a continuo to the first 40 and not thereafter. In fact he didn't use one at all apparently, until he made his final recordings of early ones in New York; then he did add an unobtrusive harpsichord. For the present discs that I acquired, this means simply that 3 has one, 12 and 24 don't.

The Haydn House also has all the Leslie Jones recordings made for English Pye (Nonesuch in America), and he did 53 of them! I'm not as taken with Jones's versions as with Goberman's, finding Jones frequently more uneven and occasionally a bit too smooth; but at his best he was exceptional as well. And then you'll find about 20 screens full of other reissued LPs (and a few 78s), some Haydn but also myriad other composers in classic much-touted performances long out of print. My own next order will include, for instance, a treasured Berwald 'Singuliere' which just happens to be the only known version that I don't have. Haydn House is to be thanked for rectifying this.

The product you get is a professionally-made CDR with label and front and back papers nicely printed. There are no booklet notes. Web address: www.haydnhouse.com

I promise not to ramble on like this too often on somebody else's thread; but to me, this once, it's worth it. Sorry, Gurn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 17, 2012, 07:00:20 PM

My dear Conrad; it's your thread too. I find your excavations of recordings past to be highly interesting. I'm sure the other Haydnistas do too. As a practical and pragmatic person, I am only too well aware that not everyone likes what I like, and many like what YOU like too. For me the only thing that is necessary for total concord is that we all like Haydn. A lot. :) Anyway, you have brought some balance here, which is sorely needed. I'm betting that you also like later recordings, like from the stereo era. Lot's on interest in those here too.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 17, 2012, 07:04:04 PM

Quote from: Arnold on April 17, 2012, 05:55:17 PM
That is a fantastic resource, and one that I have checked out of the library, and renewed as often as I could - precisely because as you say, it has been OOP and offered at ridiculous prices. That is until tonight when I found a copy for a little under $75.00. Which is still a steep price for a used book, but compared to $400 or even $181 which were other copies I found, $75 was a no-brainer purchase for such a valuable source on the Classical period.

Thanks for reminding of it with your post.

:)

You're welcome. That's a great deal; I paid $90 and felt like I got an outstanding bargain, all things considered. It is very strange; I have been watching that book for nearly 4 years now, and the lowest price I ever saw in that entire period of time was $388. Now I have seen 4 or 5 different copies for under $200 in the last month or so. Makes you wonder what broke loose? I just started reading it this evening, so I have a long way to go before I've absorbed it all. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on April 18, 2012, 12:06:45 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 17, 2012, 07:04:04 PM
You're welcome. That's a great deal; I paid $90 and felt like I got an outstanding bargain, all things considered. It is very strange; I have been watching that book for nearly 4 years now, and the lowest price I ever saw in that entire period of time was $388. Now I have seen 4 or 5 different copies for under $200 in the last month or so. Makes you wonder what broke loose? I just started reading it this evening, so I have a long way to go before I've absorbed it all. :)

8)

Well, there was a mistake with the site and actually it wasn't the 1740-1780 book, but the one for the period after it, Haydn, Mozart and Early Beethoven. ??? So, I am trying to cancel the order since I had already ordered the other two books from somewhere else. Bummer.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 18, 2012, 03:44:55 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 17, 2012, 07:00:20 PM
My dear Conrad; it's your thread too. I find your excavations of recordings past to be highly interesting. I'm sure the other Haydnistas do too. As a practical and pragmatic person, I am only too well aware that not everyone likes what I like, and many like what YOU like too. For me the only thing that is necessary for total concord is that we all like Haydn. A lot. :) Anyway, you have brought some balance here, which is sorely needed. I'm betting that you also like later recordings, like from the stereo era. Lot's on interest in those here too.

8)

But Gurn - Goberman IS stereo era. And bloody good stereo it is too.

And yes of course I am much fond of modern (digital / period perf.) as well. Just not as fond, except in the religious music for some reason or other.

Anyway - thanks for letting the Old Codger get his two cents worth in here, and you're absolutely right, this really is about the Man and his Music and not nearly as much the Means of Delivery.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 18, 2012, 03:50:14 AM

Quote from: Arnold on April 18, 2012, 12:06:45 AM
Well, there was a mistake with the site and actually it wasn't the 1740-1780 book, but the one for the period after it, Haydn, Mozart and Early Beethoven. ??? So, I am trying to cancel the order since I had already ordered the other two books from somewhere else. Bummer.

Argh.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 18, 2012, 04:15:38 AM

Quote from: Arnold on April 18, 2012, 12:06:45 AM
Well, there was a mistake with the site and actually it wasn't the 1740-1780 book, but the one for the period after it, Haydn, Mozart and Early Beethoven. ??? So, I am trying to cancel the order since I had already ordered the other two books from somewhere else. Bummer.

Damn their eyes! I've had that happen on the AMP with books a couple of times, and CD's as recently as 2 weeks ago. Never fails to irritate >:(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 18, 2012, 04:20:04 AM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 18, 2012, 03:44:55 AM

But Gurn - Goberman IS stereo era. And bloody good stereo it is too.

And yes of course I am much fond of modern (digital / period perf.) as well. Just not as fond, except in the religious music for some reason or other.

Anyway - thanks for letting the Old Codger get his two cents worth in here, and you're absolutely right, this really is about the Man and his Music and not nearly as much the Means of Delivery.

Conrad,
Oh, I know, I was just having a bit of fun with you. I'm known for it, actually. :D

What I was really thinking about was the big stars of the pre-PI era, like Szell and his cohort, who still performed Big Band Haydn off from the old B & H scores. I know little of them, but they are very popular, enough to deserve more informed discussion than I am capable of.

Since I am entering codgerhood myself, my respect level for the world's codgers has risen tremendously. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 18, 2012, 07:09:38 AM

Psst. Can I throw a quick plug in for the Opus 50 blind listening that's going on in the recording review part of the forum?

Fascinating exercise, but it would be great if we could get a couple more votes in, particularly for Group B. The overall results are too much at the mercy of my personal quirks at the moment!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on April 18, 2012, 04:16:50 PM

Quote from: orfeo on April 18, 2012, 07:09:38 AM
Psst. Can I throw a quick plug in for the Opus 50 blind listening that's going on in the recording review part of the forum?

Fascinating exercise, but it would be great if we could get a couple more votes in, particularly for Group B. The overall results are too much at the mercy of my personal quirks at the moment!

A link would help.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 18, 2012, 06:49:44 PM

Just discovered this and, as the only copy I saw was cheap, ordered it. I have no idea if it's worth the effort, though if nothing else the novelty of Bomtempo might offset a lousy Haydn. (Assuming the photo comes out blurred, it's the 'Missa cellensis' H.XXII.5.)

[asin]B00018ZRX6[/asin]

Oh, and - Gurn, take my word that becoming an old codger ain't so bad once you get used to it, assuming you can remember what you got used to.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 19, 2012, 12:29:13 PM

And then there's this - supposedly another version of the Missa cellensis, coupled with the Handel and Purcell Odes to St. Cecilia:

[asin] B002GUJ0RG[/asin]

but - boy am I glad I read the customer comments before buying! Gurn and I were 'talking' a couple of weeks ago about this mass, and how part seems to date from 1766 and the rest from c.1772; well, it turns out this disc only contains the Kyrie and Gloria, i.e. the 1766 part! Aside from a couple bits of the Credo, presumably to fill the third disc of the set, the later parts of the work aren't included.

So scratch one off the want list....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 19, 2012, 01:03:51 PM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 19, 2012, 12:29:13 PM
And then there's this - supposedly another version of the Missa cellensis, coupled with the Handel and Purcell Odes to St. Cecilia:

[asin] B002GUJ0RG[/asin]

but - boy am I glad I read the customer comments before buying! Gurn and I were 'talking' a couple of weeks ago about this mass, and how part seems to date from 1766 and the rest from c.1772; well, it turns out this disc only contains the Kyrie and Gloria, i.e. the 1766 part! Aside from a couple bits of the Credo, presumably to fill the third disc of the set, the later parts of the work aren't included.

So scratch one off the want list....

Thanks for posting this, Conrad. I probably wouldn't have taken the time to read the reviews and then bought it as soon as I saw 'Minkowski' on there. I have seen versions of Mozart's Requiem like that. Different rationale, but same result. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 19, 2012, 03:18:59 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 19, 2012, 01:03:51 PM
Thanks for posting this, Conrad. I probably wouldn't have taken the time to read the reviews and then bought it as soon as I saw 'Minkowski' on there. I have seen versions of Mozart's Requiem like that. Different rationale, but same result. :-\

8)

The review that tipped me off to the abbreviated Haydn also says that, IHO, the Handel is excellent but the Purcell not so much. The reviewer calls himself Zadok the Priest (he's obviously a Handel nut) and I remember him from the Amazon classical forum, which I abandoned for this one because that one started to get kinda nasty at times and I got sick of it - anyway, Zadok always struck me as one of the most thorough and incisive commentators on the music of his choice, and even if the music in question didn't intrigue me, his comments always did. The bottom line therefore is that if you want to spend 3 discs worth of money on the Handel, maybe this is a good deal; otherwise I'd be inclined to go elsewhere.

Too bad though; I agree with you, the Minkowski name seemed to promise something worthy indeed.

As to the other one I posted, by Michel Corboz, I have some hope based on other recordings, but he's no giant in the field, so who knows? I already have the Bomtempo Requiem (in a version under Heinz Rögner), which isn't bad but could easily be bettered. The Haydn performance also exists on a single disc, all alone, and on a triple disc with, guess what?, the Handel and Purcell Odes! Only they aren't directed by Corboz, rather by Andrew Parrott and Philip Ledger respectively.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on April 19, 2012, 05:10:28 PM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 19, 2012, 03:18:59 PM

As to the other one I posted, by Michel Corboz, I have some hope based on other recordings, but he's no giant in the field, so who knows? I already have the Bomtempo Requiem (in a version under Heinz Rögner), which isn't bad but could easily be bettered. The Haydn performance also exists on a single disc, all alone, and on a triple disc with, guess what?, the Handel and Purcell Odes! Only they aren't directed by Corboz, rather by Andrew Parrott and Philip Ledger respectively.

I have the three disc set you're talking about. It's worth getting for the Handel and Purcell, but unfortunately for your purposes, the Haydn is well done but not extraordinary. Or perhaps it simply suffered from comparison with the other pieces. But it was essentially an EMI marketing gimmick. 'Hey, we have three composers with an anniversary year coming up. Anything we can do to tie them together for a set of re-releases? Oh, well, two of them wrote Odes for this Cecilia gal. How about Haydn? Oh, a mass. Okay, what performance can we drag out of the vault for that one?"

I suppose Minkowski did the same sort of thing, but at least he gave new performances (I presume).

Well, maybe since it has Bontempo for company in this outing, the performance will sound better.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 19, 2012, 05:39:22 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 19, 2012, 05:10:28 PM
I have the three disc set you're talking about. It's worth getting for the Handel and Purcell, but unfortunately for your purposes, the Haydn is well done but not extraordinary. Or perhaps it simply suffered from comparison with the other pieces. But it was essentially an EMI marketing gimmick. 'Hey, we have three composers with an anniversary year coming up. Anything we can do to tie them together for a set of re-releases? Oh, well, two of them wrote Odes for this Cecilia gal. How about Haydn? Oh, a mass. Okay, what performance can we drag out of the vault for that one?"

I suppose Minkowski did the same sort of thing, but at least he gave new performances (I presume).

Well, maybe since it has Bontempo for company in this outing, the performance will sound better.

I tend to agree with your words, probably beyond your own intentions, Jeffrey. I mean I don't consider his Haydn really memorable at all. Minkowski is too much operatic and effectist to make an outstanding Haydn or Bach... I guess he is sentenced to be a great Handelian. :P ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on April 19, 2012, 06:13:36 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 19, 2012, 05:39:22 PM
I tend to agree with your words, probably beyond your own intentions, Jeffrey. I mean I don't consider his Haydn really memorable at all. Minkowski is too much operatic and effectist to make an outstanding Haydn or Bach... I guess he is sentenced to be a great Handelian. :P ;D

I have to disagree with you about his Haydn and Bach. Or at least, I like his recording of the B Minor Mass, and I liked most of what I heard when I gave a first listen to his recording of the London Symphonies earlier this week. (Although I suppose I could have done without the theatrical effect he inserted into the Surprise Symphony.)

Still I have enough recordings of the Handel and Purcell Odes that I'm not going to rush out to buy Minkowski's recording.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 19, 2012, 06:25:05 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 19, 2012, 06:13:36 PM
I have to disagree with you about his Haydn and Bach.

No surprise, I know Minkowski is quite popular (as these things can be "popular") and generally successful among the critics. IMO his B Minor Mass is well done, but just that: aesthetically well done.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 19, 2012, 06:29:59 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 19, 2012, 06:25:05 PM
No surprise, I know Minkowski is quite popular (as these things can be "popular") and generally successful among the critics. IMO his B Minor Mass is well done, but just that: aesthetically well done.

Can you explain that, please, Antoine? What are you wanting besides "aesthetically well done"? I'm not arguing with you here, I'm just curious what others are looking for. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 19, 2012, 06:51:04 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 19, 2012, 06:29:59 PM
I'm not arguing with you here...

Even if that were the case, it wouldn't be any problem at all, Gurn. ;D

I mean he is a bit superficial. I (I stress this) always feel that the most intimate humanity and the highest sense of divinity (I know the latter is probably a nonsense for many people) are quite elusive to Minkowski.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 20, 2012, 04:13:10 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 19, 2012, 06:51:04 PM
Even if that were the case, it wouldn't be any problem at all, Gurn. ;D

I mean he is a bit superficial. I (I stress this) always feel that the most intimate humanity and the highest sense of divinity (I know the latter is probably a nonsense for many people) are quite elusive to Minkowski.

Oh, OK, he is lacking spirituality then, in a manner of speaking. I can accept that from an individual, despite that I feel that the sense of it is subjective and so a matter of personal perception. For one such as myself (I'm saying that, it's OK), then, the "aesthetically well done" is sufficient unto the day. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 20, 2012, 04:15:33 AM

Speaking for myself (oh, that was obvious, was it?) I find Minkowsky's Haydn both aesthetically well done, and quite sufficiently spiritual.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on April 20, 2012, 07:08:12 AM

Spirituality is hard enough to nail down just by itself without trying to find evidence of it in a musical performance.

I like Minkowski's Haydn just fine and never thought to ask myself if his performances exhibit spirituality - which is not unique to his, but a question I never ask about any recording.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 20, 2012, 07:38:07 AM

Well, before Antoine gets upset, I just want to point out that 'spirituality' is MY word. He may mean something else and I don't want to misrepresent that. :)

That said, I agree with you and Karl vis-a-vis Minkowski's performance style. I like his Mozart to, FWIW. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 20, 2012, 08:03:41 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 19, 2012, 06:51:04 PM
I mean he is a bit superficial. I (I stress this) always feel that the most intimate humanity and the highest sense of divinity (I know the latter is probably a nonsense for many people) are quite elusive to Minkowski.

In order to understand what you mean by "intimate humanity" and "highest sense of divinity" can you give us examples of conductors and orchestras whom you believe achieve this?

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on April 20, 2012, 08:48:21 AM

I would say that Minkowski spirituality is sufficiently Haydn alike. I don't like too much what he do with drums in "Drumroll" and the way he wants to suprise in "Suprise". But I suppose there is nothing in it which would be not acceptable to Haydn. Hiis London symphonies are for me real Haydn symphonies. All of them. When I listen to Bruggen London Symphonies I feel that it is not Haydn at all.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on April 20, 2012, 09:16:23 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 20, 2012, 08:03:41 AM
In order to understand what you mean by "intimate humanity" and "highest sense of divinity" can you give us examples of conductors and orchestras whom you believe achieve this?

Sarge

Obviously I don't try to create a general theory on this matter. I simply explained my own reasons to not sharing the apparent consensus on the excellence of Minkowski's recordings. In my opinion he is a gifted artisan, but not a great artist. When I wrote "humanity" and "divinity", I was specially thinking of his B-Minor Mass, where is quite evident (to me!) that all is well sung, but without getting a real sense of transcendence (as Leonhardt, for instance, among many other examples). Regarding Haydn my favorite kind of director is one like Kuijken (but equally Brüggen or the ongoing Londons by Weil), who is serious, but also ironic, long-breathed and so... But I repeat, I don't intend to persuade to anybody about this because it's just my opinion, subjective by definition: Minkowski is not one of my favorite directors, even if the entire world thinks that he is the freaking god of the orchestral direction. ;D 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 20, 2012, 09:31:45 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 20, 2012, 09:16:23 AM
. . . even if the entire world thinks that he is the freaking god of the orchestral direction. ;D 8)

To quote Jeeves: The contingency is remote, sir.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 20, 2012, 06:22:39 PM

I have been thinking (always a sign of trouble) that I would like to take a few works and do a couple of things with them for the benefit of the Haydnistos. First, to take a specific piece and give as much of the history of it as I can muster up, and second, to show what recordings of it that I have which should be available and perhaps discuss them, FWIW. If there seems to be some interest in this line of endeavor, then perhaps I will continue, maybe with suggested works by yourselves.

Of course, I will only be looking at period instrument (PI) recordings, for a couple of reasons. First, that's all I have, really. True, in the Haydn area I have a relatively small (<100 disks) hoard of MI disks, but I haven't listened to them in a long time and don't remember how they stack up. Secondly, most discussions that I have read of PI recordings were written by people who knew and loved modern instrument (MI) recordings, and never seemed able to come to terms with the PI experience. So my hope is that I will compare apples to apples and leave any comparative thoughts vs. MI far behind. :)

Haydn's Concerto in Eb for Keyed Trumpet (1796) – Hoboken 07e:1
In 1796, Haydn was newly returned from England and comfortably ensconced in Vienna, which was finally recognizing him as the great composer that the rest of Europe had tumbled to years earlier. Haydn wrote his trumpet concerto for Anton Weidinger (born June 9th 1766, died in September 1852 at the age of 86 years and 3 months!), both as an act of friendship and because of his interest in innovation. Until then, Haydn's writing for the trumpet had rarely risen above the level of providing harmonic support or underlining a particular Affect. Now he took a closer interest in the new potential of what Weidinger termed his organisirte Trompete (organized trumpet), writing a trumpet part for him that was totally unlike the type of writing traditionally with the instrument. In this concert, chromatic runs and diatonic melodies replaced broken triads and fanfare motifs.

Weidinger started developing his keyed trumpet in 1793 and this trumpet (unlike the earlier natural trumpet) had 4-6 holes or keys. It could produce all the chromatic tones between (Eb) G and Bb''', but would usually be played at a lower pitch because of the range of the concerto. This Eb trumpet was evidently a forerunner of his 4-6 keyed trumpet (c.1801). There is some evidence that Weidinger knew Haydn before requesting the Concerto, and Haydn may well have been the best man at Weidinger's wedding in 1792. He was certainly a registered witness at the wedding of Weidinger's daughter in 1797.

After the first performances by Weidinger, the concerto was forgotten. In the late 1800's it was rediscovered. Paul Handke (who moved to USA and was trumpeter with Chicago Symphony Orchestra), wrote down the solo trumpet part from the original Haydn manuscript in 1899. In 1908, Professor Franz Rossbach, Solo trumpet with the Wiener Philharmoniker performed it again in Vienna. Then in March 1914, Eduard Seifert (1870-1965), Solo trumpet with the Dresdner Staatskapelle performed the concerto in Dresden. Seifert copied the manuscript from Rossbach. The first time that the Concerto was heard in England was 30 March 1932. The performance was a BBC broadcast and the trumpeter was Ernest Hall. Finally, on Thursday night, June 23, 1938, Haydn's Trumpet Concerto was again broadcast by the BBC. Soloist was the English trumpeter George Eskdale. He played the second and third movements (Andante and Allegro). This broadcast was later made into a 78 rpm phonograph by Columbia Records (Col. 70106-D). It is believed to be the first recording of the Haydn Trumpet Concerto.
(I want to thank "O.J.'s Trumpet Page" blog for some of this info. He has no contact info posted so I can't be more precise, unfortunately)

A bit of analysis for those so inclined (stolen from here and there)
Splendidly orchestrated, Haydn's concerto fully exploits the trumpet's new technical abilities. The opening Allegro is festive and radiant, with the orchestra introducing the main themes before they're taken up by the soloist. There's a motif that initially rises, subsequently allowing the trumpet to show off its new stock of notes in the low register. This motif evolves into a fanfare-like subject, which the soloist enriches with effective trills and other ornamentation. The development section requires the trumpeter to play in different keys, which would have been impossible on a valveless trumpet.

Opening with a lovely, expansive melody in Siciliano style, the second movement reveals the full lyrical and expressive potential of the new trumpet. In addition, this movement, which exemplifies the consummate melodic artistry of Haydn's late works, showcases the instrument's ability to easily modulate from key to key. Haydn, particularly in this Andante, designs his melodies to highlight the features of the keyed instrument, concentrating unusual chromatic intervals in the low and middle registers, right where the poor old Heineken-free natural trumpet couldn't get. This is what gives it so distinctive a sound, making it a kindred spirit more of the Mozart Horn Concertos than any contemporaneous trumpet work.

Written in a sonata rondo form, the concluding Allegro begins with an angular, fanfare-like theme, continuing with material which calls upon the soloist's dexterity in handling trills and other technical effects. Following a concise, brief development section which mainly negotiates primary thematic material, a recapitulation leads the trumpeter to a higher, brighter tessitura. A spirited combination of technical brilliance and musical élan, the third movement ends with a gleaming, celebratory coda. And there is that special delight, Haydn's endearing habit of slipping in a little joke. After the first movement's grand cadenza, and hearing the big build up in the finale, the pregnant pause positively screams "another cadenza coming!" . . . and then it doesn't. Unless the soloist has slipped in one of his own, in which case the joke will be on those that know this joke.

All well and good, you say (as do I), but for me, the actual wit comes in the first part of the trumpet solo. This instrument had been being touted around Vienna for a good long time, and everyone in the audience was rather looking forward to hearing this bit of chromatic magic. So what does Haydn open up with? Of course; a long run of notes that can have been played by any trumpet then in existence. That's my boy Joe. :D

PI recording history on Keyed Trumpet
I don't know if this is a surprise to anyone here or not; there are only 4 recordings made of this work on a real keyed trumpet. In order, they are;
1. Friedemann Immer did the first recording in 1987 with a keyed trumpet (on an instrument made by Rudolf Tutz Innsbruck, 1984). This is an all Haydn disc that also features the horn concerto played by Timothy Brown on a ca. 1830 horn.
Orchestra led by Christopher Hogwood. All playing on period instruments, including Steven Keavy, David Staff and Crispian Steele-Perkins on period trumpets.
L'OISEAU-LYRE 417 610-2 OH (DECCA), 1987.

2. Mark Bennett is also a specialist on the natural trumpet. He lives in England and studied with Michael Laird. He recorded the Haydn Concerto on a keyed trumpet, August 11, 1992 with conductor Trevor Pinnock and The English Concert. On that CD is also other works by Haydn (for oboe (attributed to) and natural horn).
Archiv - #31678 / Audio CD / DDD, 1992

3. Reinhold Friedrich was the third person to make a recording using a copy of the instrument that was used by Weidinger in 1800. He is accompanied by Wiener Akademie lead by Martin Haselböck. The orchestra uses all period instruments. Friedrich had his first live performance with this instrument in 1993. He then played the Haydn Concerto in the same place as Weidinger had premiered it two centuries earlier.
In 1995 he did the recording on the label Capriccio and here he also recorded the Hummel Concerto and the M. Puccini's Concertone.
Capriccio 10 598 / Audio CD / DDD, 1995

4. Crispian Steele-Perkins recorded Hummel on a keyed trumpet in 2001 - on a CD called "Classical Trumpet Concertos"
Crispian Steele-Perkins, natural and keyed trumpets
The King's Consort / Dir: Robert King
Rec date: Jan. 2001, London, Blackheath Concert Halls
Hyperion - CDA67266 (66'18")

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnTrumpetHogwoodcover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnTrumpetPinnockconcertos.jpg)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnTrumpetFriedrichcover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnTrumpetPerkinsKingcover.jpg)

Since I am blessed with all four of these disks, listening to them several times over was easy as could be. Choosing a disk to recommend, however, was something entirely different. I have a score for the solo trumpet part and followed it through with each player. It was difficult to spot any discrepancies, and really, the faithfulness to the score was admirable. Trills are all marked, so ornaments aren't really more of an issue for PI players than they are for MI ones. I would have liked to see any of them diverge a bit in that category, but no, not a great lot of derring-do, I'm afraid. Perhaps it is difficult enough as written.
If there is any performance controversy, it can reasonably be considered to be the pace of the Andante inner movement. 6/8 Andante's at the turn of the 18th/19th century were nearly always played at <> eighth = 120. This is based on writings by Czerny and particularly Neukomm, who of course was a pupil of Haydn. Once the metronome was invented and it became fashionable to retrofit metronome markings to earlier works, all of Czerny and Neukomm's markings in Haydn's works (The Creation, some of the London symphonies etc), the examples of 6/8 Andantes are all in that range. However, modern performance is much slower. Of our 4 performances in question here, they range like this;
Immer = 88
Bennett = 76
Friedrich = 96
Steele-Perkins = 94

So despite being rather slower than it is supposed to be, Friedrich's is closest to 'correct'. The same holds true with MI versions, BTW. The overall average of all recordings is <>90. I find it interesting that the only versions that are 'on tempo' are the earliest recorded versions from the 1930's! What conclusions to draw from this? I think that at least one is that people can't get past the idea that the inner movement of a concerto is supposed to be a slow movement. But if Haydn wanted slow, he wouldn't have written "Andante", would he?

Anyway, carrying on; I don't want to base choices on the remainder of the coupled material either; two (Hogwood & Pinnock) are 'All-Haydn' (well, more or less) and the other two (Friedrich & Perkins) are all trumpet concertos by various composers. So if that's your criterion, then I've cut your choices in half. :)

Of the two that are all works by Haydn(*) I find that the accompaniment of The English Concert / Pinnock for Bennett is more lively and effective than that of the Academy of Ancient Music. In addition, Bennett doesn't seem to be having the struggle of his life with the instrument that Immer seems to be having. Although I suppose the added drama of guessing whether Immer will survive the ordeal gives some added spice. :) But overall, the Pinnock has that extra spark that just seems to set it over the top for me.

Of the two which are compilations, it is perhaps an even more difficult choice. Perkins has a beautiful clear tone which is possibly the best of the lot. But I really do enjoy the playing of the Wiener Akademie / Haselböck, and Friedrich manages the best lot of cadenzas of all four, which is the only place that the individuality of the player really gets to show through. So that said, I choose Friedrich / Haselböck in that semi-final. :)
One thing that I can say with certainty is that there are no losers among the four, so if you are looking for a PI version of this work to add to your collection, I can wholeheartedly recommend any of these, just based on your own criteria.

Please feel free to critique and discuss. What I didn't discover from online and book reading (the facts) I just present as my own opinion anyway, and you know I am always willing to change that. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 20, 2012, 06:42:09 PM

A post of surpassingly excellent coolness, O Gurn. Stop me if I've said this already, but this concerto is a sentimental favorite of mine, the very first Haydn for me not merely to have played, but ever to have heard. I must have been in ninth or tenth grade, and a trumpeter who was one grade ahead of me was easily the finest student musician in the school. (We've since gotten back in touch, thanks to the miracle of the internet.) So, this schoolmate of mine was the soloist, and we played the accompaniment in band transcription (talk about as non-PI as you can get).

I still remember, as if it were yesterday, the magic woven upon me by the first movement: simplicity itself, but a grace, and a profound sweetness. Incredible, and I cannot really put it into words.

It wasn't until a good deal later that I discovered that I wished to be a composer. But playing the Haydn was an earlier watershed, and I knew I should never give up playing clarinet while I have breath.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on April 20, 2012, 06:49:59 PM

There. You've talked me into getting the three I don't already have. Satsfied? :D

Quote
in the Haydn area I have a relatively small (<100 disks) hoard of MI disks,

Only in GMG would the phrase "relatively small" be appled to a 100 disc collection.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 20, 2012, 06:58:13 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 20, 2012, 06:42:09 PM
A post of surpassingly excellent coolness, O Gurn. Stop me if I've said this already, but this concerto is a sentimental favorite of mine, the very first Haydn for me not merely to have played, but ever to have heard. I must have been in ninth or tenth grade, and a trumpeter who was one grade ahead of me was easily the finest student musician in the school. (We've since gotten back in touch, thanks to the miracle of the internet.) So, this schoolmate of mine was the soloist, and we played the accompaniment in band transcription (talk about as non-PI as you can get).

I still remember, as if it were yesterday, the magic woven upon me by the first movement: simplicity itself, but a grace, and a profound sweetness. Incredible, and I cannot really put it into words.

It wasn't until a good deal later that I discovered that I wished to be a composer. But playing the Haydn was an earlier watershed, and I knew I should never give up playing clarinet while I have breath.

That is so cool, Karl! I didn't know any of that background, but it does explain your (surprising?) interest in Haydn. It was also my first Haydn concerto. Back in the days when Haydn was just symphonies to me, I also listened to some jazz, and I saw Wynton Marsalis' disk of this work and picked it up out of curiosity. Needless to say I was delighted with, and that's what started me exploring other dimensions of Haydn. Still working on that 20 years later... :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSymphony414449Arioncover.jpg)
Arion Baroque Orchestra \ Gary Cooper - Hob 01_044 Symphony in e 2nd mvmt - Menuetto - Trio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 20, 2012, 07:01:09 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 20, 2012, 06:49:59 PM
There. You've talked me into getting the three I don't already have. Satsfied? :D

:D
On the upside, it is a relatively small expense for the potential listening delight... 0:)

QuoteOnly in GMG would the phrase "relatively small" be appled to a 100 disc collection.

:o My CDCDCD has just totally ruined me, Jeffrey. And on reflection, I might add that it was thoughtlessly applied too. Woe is me! ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on April 20, 2012, 07:45:50 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 20, 2012, 06:58:13 PM
That is so cool, Karl! I didn't know any of that background, but it does explain your (surprising?) interest in Haydn. It was also my first Haydn concerto. Back in the days when Haydn was just symphonies to me, I also listened to some jazz, and I saw Wynton Marsalis' disk of this work and picked it up out of curiosity. Needless to say I was delighted with, and that's what started me exploring other dimensions of Haydn. Still working on that 20 years later... :)

I wouldn't be surprised if humanity can be divided into four categories
Those whose first experience of Haydn was the Surprise Symphony
Those whose first experience of Haydn was the Trumpet Concerto
Those whose first experience of Haydn was the Keyboard Concerto in D Major
Those who have yet to experience any Haydn at all.

I suppose there are folks whose first Haydn was something else, but the number is probably mathematically trivial.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on April 21, 2012, 02:49:40 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 20, 2012, 07:45:50 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if humanity can be divided into four categories
Those whose first experience of Haydn was the Surprise Symphony
Those whose first experience of Haydn was the Trumpet Concerto
Those whose first experience of Haydn was the Keyboard Concerto in D Major
Those who have yet to experience any Haydn at all.

I suppose there are folks whose first Haydn was something else, but the number is probably mathematically trivial.

Opus 71 SQs. But they worked a similar trick. I remain fascinated and vastly entertained by string chamber music of that era. Papa teaches us well. As to the trumpet number, mine only is by Hardenberger, and I'll be auditing it shortly.

Great stuff Gurn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 21, 2012, 03:17:26 AM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 20, 2012, 09:16:23 AM
Obviously I don't try to create a general theory on this matter. I simply explained my own reasons to not sharing the apparent consensus on the excellence of Minkowski's recordings. In my opinion he is a gifted artisan, but not a great artist. When I wrote "humanity" and "divinity", I was specially thinking of his B-Minor Mass, where is quite evident (to me!) that all is well sung, but without getting a real sense of transcendence (as Leonhardt, for instance, among many other examples). Regarding Haydn my favorite kind of director is one like Kuijken (but equally Brüggen or the ongoing Londons by Weil), who is serious, but also ironic, long-breathed and so... But I repeat, I don't intend to persuade to anybody about this because it's just my opinion, subjective by definition

I appreciate this elaboration and clarification of your original posts on the subject. Thanks.

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on April 20, 2012, 09:16:23 AM
Minkowski is not one of my favorite directors, even if the entire world thinks that he is the freaking god of the orchestral direction. ;D

I don't think he is. The freaking god of orchestral direction is obviously George Szell 8) ;)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 21, 2012, 03:23:12 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 20, 2012, 07:45:50 PM
Those whose first experience of Haydn was the Surprise Symphony

That would be me. A music appreciation teacher in fourth grade exposed us to "named" symphonies: Surprise, Unfinished, New World, etc.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 21, 2012, 07:00:13 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 20, 2012, 06:58:13 PM
That is so cool, Karl! I didn't know any of that background, but it does explain your (surprising?) interest in Haydn. It was also my first Haydn concerto. Back in the days when Haydn was just symphonies to me, I also listened to some jazz, and I saw Wynton Marsalis' disk of this work and picked it up out of curiosity. Needless to say I was delighted with, and that's what started me exploring other dimensions of Haydn. Still working on that 20 years later... :)

Gurn - thanks for your excellent description of the 'history' of Papa's Trumpet Concerto and the discussion of the PI recordings; I have the ones w/ Friedrich and Pinnock.

But in the quote above, I must say that my first experience w/ this work was the Wynton Marsalis disc which I obtained when first released (probably early to middle 1980s just after the purchase of my first CD player) - likely started me on not only collecting more Haydn, i.e. symphonies & SQs, but also on exploring his other output! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 21, 2012, 07:21:30 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 20, 2012, 07:45:50 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if humanity can be divided into four categories
Those whose first experience of Haydn was the Surprise Symphony
Those whose first experience of Haydn was the Trumpet Concerto
Those whose first experience of Haydn was the Keyboard Concerto in D Major
Those who have yet to experience any Haydn at all.

I suppose there are folks whose first Haydn was something else, but the number is probably mathematically trivial.

The other work(s) I would add, which I discovered during the course of my previous series of essays, is the Op 76 string quartets. I was surprised how many, like myself, took their interest in Haydn, string quartets, and chamber music in general from a disk of Op 76 #1-3. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 21, 2012, 07:23:17 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on April 21, 2012, 02:49:40 AM
Opus 71 SQs. But they worked a similar trick. I remain fascinated and vastly entertained by string chamber music of that era. Papa teaches us well. As to the trumpet number, mine only is by Hardenberger, and I'll be auditing it shortly.

Great stuff Gurn.

Thanks, Chas. Maybe there will be a few revisits of the Trumpet Concerto this weekend. That'll be cool! 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 21, 2012, 07:24:30 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 20, 2012, 07:45:50 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if humanity can be divided into four categories
Those whose first experience of Haydn was the Surprise Symphony
Those whose first experience of Haydn was the Trumpet Concerto
Those whose first experience of Haydn was the Keyboard Concerto in D Major
Those who have yet to experience any Haydn at all.

I suppose there are folks whose first Haydn was something else, but the number is probably mathematically trivial.

Well, Jeffrey, I fall into the "Trumpet Concerto" category...I played trumpet in high school, along with French horn and T. sax, and picked up a disc of Wynton Marsalis playing several concertos, one being the Haydn, immediately in love with the music.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 21, 2012, 07:25:31 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 21, 2012, 03:23:12 AM
That would be me. A music appreciation teacher in fourth grade exposed us to "named" symphonies: Surprise, Unfinished, New World, etc.

Sarge

Well, me too actually. As I mentioned in this space a few months back, my very first Haydn was my father's old LP of #94 & 100. I wish I could hear that LP again today... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 21, 2012, 07:28:19 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on April 21, 2012, 07:00:13 AM
Gurn - thanks for your excellent description of the 'history' of Papa's Trumpet Concerto and the discussion of the PI recordings; I have the ones w/ Friedrich and Pinnock.

But in the quote above, I must say that my first experience w/ this work was the Wynton Marsalis disc which I obtained when first released (probably early to middle 1980s just after the purchase of my first CD player) - likely started me on not only collecting more Haydn, i.e. symphonies & SQs, but also on exploring his other output! :)

Thanks, Dave. You were the one who first pointed out the Friedrich to me, I'm glad the price came down from where it was at that time. There must have been a re-release. Anyway, glad I got it.

Hard not to like that Marsalis, despite the amount of self-indulgence in it. He has the skill and talent to bring off self-indulgence with flair! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 21, 2012, 03:04:56 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 20, 2012, 07:45:50 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if humanity can be divided into four categories
Those whose first experience of Haydn was the Surprise Symphony
Those whose first experience of Haydn was the Trumpet Concerto
Those whose first experience of Haydn was the Keyboard Concerto in D Major
Those who have yet to experience any Haydn at all.

I suppose there are folks whose first Haydn was something else, but the number is probably mathematically trivial.

Oh, well, of course you knew that by writing that, you'd cause the members of the League of Exceptions to swarm out of the woodwork....

Symphony 57. Szymon Goldberg. On the radio, meaning that when I ran out and bought the LP, I also got Symphony 44, and the rocket ship has been ascending ever since.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 21, 2012, 04:36:28 PM

Can't resist, Gurn - here's a link

http://www.amazon.co.uk/3151-SCHERBAUM-MICHAELS-Haydn-Trumpet/dp/B004AVZ4KG/ref=sr_1_32?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1335054444&sr=1-32

to just one copy, for sale in England, of the REAL first recording of the trumpet con. on a keyed trumpet. Adolf Scherbaum, Munich Ch. Orch., Hans Stadlmair. Of course the orchestra itself wasn't PI - they didn't have such things in those days - but they came as close as that era knew how to. The same disc has the horn con. and a Molter clarinet con., and those instruments too were replicated originals. A very, very nice disc in its day, and gave us all a taste of what was to come. I haven't heard it in aeons, of course; but the thought occurred to me, wouldn't the keyed trumpet solo have seemed a bit odd against an orchestra with modern trumpets? Perhaps now, knowing what we know, but at the time I doubt anybody gave that problem a thought. Or maybe Stadlmair subordinated the orchestral trumpets enough to minimize the contrast, which as I recall was only really blatant in the highest registers where the keyed trumpet was really shrill and squeaky, and the modern trumpets couldn't go anyway. In any case, that's something of which there remains no memory.

Conrad, the fount of nostalgia, at your service.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on April 21, 2012, 04:48:45 PM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 21, 2012, 03:04:56 PM
Oh, well, of course you knew that by writing that, you'd cause the members of the League of Exceptions to swarm out of the woodwork....

Symphony 57. Szymon Goldberg. On the radio, meaning that when I ran out and bought the LP, I also got Symphony 44, and the rocket ship has been ascending ever since.

"The exception probes the rule" [that's supposed to be the original version, before it got distorted by demotic phonics]

I figured the exceptions would make themselves heard. But it would be interesting to see how true that is, because those are the works by Haydn that have entered the pop culture most easily. (Although I probably should have also listed the Farewell Symphony.)

For myself, it would almost certainly be the Surprise Symphony, from a record my mother bought me when I was about seven years old.

ETA: Of course, it took me a good while longer to become a Haydnisto!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 21, 2012, 05:01:15 PM

Here is from a list I have of all known recordings of this work. No doubt at all that Scherbaum is there, but no mention that he used anything but a standard instrument

Artist      Orchestra      Record Label      Year
Scherbaum, Adolf    Strings from the NDR Symphony Orchestra    Archiv Production (ARC 3151)    1959
Scherbaum, Adolf    Sinfonie-Orchester des NDR    DG 30592 EPL    1960
Scherbaum, Adolf    Sinfonie-Orchester des NDR    DG 2535288    1960

So I had seen that in there, but no mention at all of a keyed trumpet. That is very interesting information, Conrad.

Here is another anomaly, which is really only one because I got the list AND the info that there are only 4 recordings from the same person!

Cassone, Gabriele (keyed trumpet)    Academia Montis Regalis, Alessandro De Marchi    Amadeus (AM-148-2)    2003

I am very familiar with that orchestra, they are PI all the way, so I have no doubt that this disk is out there somewhere.... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 21, 2012, 05:28:00 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 21, 2012, 04:48:45 PM
"The exception probes the rule" [that's supposed to be the original version, before it got distorted by demotic phonics]

I figured the exceptions would make themselves heard. But it would be interesting to see how true that is, because those are the works by Haydn that have entered the pop culture most easily. (Although I probably should have also listed the Farewell Symphony.)

For myself, it would almost certainly be the Surprise Symphony, from a record my mother bought me when I was about seven years old.

ETA: Of course, it took me a good while longer to become a Haydnisto!

I suppose it's only fair to admit that the 57th, Goldberg, is the first Haydn music I can remember hearing. Now of course, this isn't to say that I hadn't heard something else and simply paid no attention. I would have been in high school in those days, and by no means a focused listener. (I do know that my parents had no Haydn in their collection of 78s. They never graduated to LPs.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 21, 2012, 07:05:27 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 21, 2012, 05:01:15 PM
Here is from a list I have of all known recordings of this work. No doubt at all that Scherbaum is there, but no mention that he used anything but a standard instrument

Artist      Orchestra      Record Label      Year
Scherbaum, Adolf    Strings from the NDR Symphony Orchestra    Archiv Production (ARC 3151)    1959
Scherbaum, Adolf    Sinfonie-Orchester des NDR    DG 30592 EPL    1960
Scherbaum, Adolf    Sinfonie-Orchester des NDR    DG 2535288    1960

So I had seen that in there, but no mention at all of a keyed trumpet. That is very interesting information, Conrad.

Here is another anomaly, which is really only one because I got the list AND the info that there are only 4 recordings from the same person!

Cassone, Gabriele (keyed trumpet)    Academia Montis Regalis, Alessandro De Marchi    Amadeus (AM-148-2)    2003

I am very familiar with that orchestra, they are PI all the way, so I have no doubt that this disk is out there somewhere.... :-\

8)

Ho-kay. Now you've gotten me questioning myself, and I dug in a bit.

It seems that Adolf Scherbaum (1909-2000) was the pioneer of the Baroque "Bach" trumpet, but he didn't actually use a replicated instrument. What he did instead was invent a special mouthpiece, and a special way of blowing into it, that gave him the ability to play the Baroque high notes that were normally not playable; and so he became THE man for, e.g. the 2d Brandenburg (one site claims more than 400 performances and at least six recordings) and by extension a lot of other Baroque and early classical trumpet music. He was the one who revived, for instance, one of the two Michael Haydn concertos, which are all but impossible on a modern instrument.

But you're right, there's no mention of a keyed trumpet. On the other hand, he did play that DG Arkiv recording AS WRITTEN, I specifically recall those giddy high notes and the written documentation that discussed the range of the keyed trumpet etc. etc. So I'm thinking: Did Scherbaum actually USE a keyed trumpet, or merely EMULATE one? And has my memory remembered hearing an EMULATION and translated after at least 30 years to actual PLAYING? To answer that fully I suppose I'd have to go find a copy of one of the LP issues (there were at least three different pressings, but apparently just one performance - and I gather I was wrong about the orchestra, the Munich Chamber w/Stadlmair accompanied the Molter clarinet concerto, the NDR "strings" (well, that is what it says!!) under Christoph Stepp played the two Haydn; makes some sense as Scherbaum was first trumpet of the NDR). At the quoted price of the one I found in the UK, no thanks; I can't play LPs anyway.

If it's of any interest, the first performance I ever heard was even earlier, on the Haydn Society LP with Helmut Wobitsch and Anton Heiller. Very good for its day though of course not even remotely PP except size of the orchestra. A bit later came the really spectacular (for its day) Kenneth Schermerhorn one, with the orchestration touched up to make it glitzier. The trumpet playing was fabulous and that LP sold quite a few copies because of all the brilliance - but nothing was authentic at all. It sounded wonderful and wrong all at the same time

And then came Scherbaum and what I long THOUGHT was Haydn done as correctly as was possible at the time. :'( Well, maybe that is true no matter what. In 1960 they really weren't yet much into the building of replicated instruments.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 21, 2012, 07:30:02 PM

Okay, here's a perfect example of one of the greatest things I'm discovering about this whole Forum thing. Something piques my interest, I start following threads to learn things, and suddenly I come across something I hadn't known existed.

Gurn started in on the trumpet concerto, and I had some (apparently faulty) memories to share, and then I went off in pursuit of other things (trying to track down that Amadeus CD he mentioned - no luck yet), and suddenly I encountered this:

[asin]B000J10JUQ[/asin]

Now if you link to it, so as to get the thumbnail of the back paper with the track listings, you'll notice a Michael Haydn serenade with sections shown as 'Concerto for Bassoon' and 'Concerto for Trumpet.' (That's in addition to a stand-alone concerto for trumpet earlier on the disc.) That serenade, my friends, is catalogue MH 133, and the first three movements are a Symphony - one of only three of his that I don't have. I do own the one-movement Bassoon part, and the two-movement Trumpet concerto, but not the rest. And so my collection of the 46 symphonies of Michael, of which I had 43, will now total 44 with the purchase of this disc. Just two to go!!! (One's unrecorded, but sadly, the other is lost, so I guess I won't be completing things any time soon.)

See? I hadn't even known this thing had been recorded in its proper form, 3-mvt. symphony within a serenade, until Gurn sent me scurrying after Papa Joe's trumpet con. See what the forum can do for you?

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 22, 2012, 03:07:09 AM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 21, 2012, 07:30:02 PM
Okay, here's a perfect example of one of the greatest things I'm discovering about this whole Forum thing. Something piques my interest, I start following threads to learn things, and suddenly I come across something I hadn't known existed.

Gurn started in on the trumpet concerto, and I had some (apparently faulty) memories to share, and then I went off in pursuit of other things (trying to track down that Amadeus CD he mentioned - no luck yet), and suddenly I encountered this:

[asin]B000J10JUQ[/asin]

Now if you link to it, so as to get the thumbnail of the back paper with the track listings, you'll notice a Michael Haydn serenade with sections shown as 'Concerto for Bassoon' and 'Concerto for Trumpet.' (That's in addition to a stand-alone concerto for trumpet earlier on the disc.) That serenade, my friends, is catalogue MH 133, and the first three movements are a Symphony - one of only three of his that I don't have. I do own the one-movement Bassoon part, and the two-movement Trumpet concerto, but not the rest. And so my collection of the 46 symphonies of Michael, of which I had 43, will now total 44 with the purchase of this disc. Just two to go!!! (One's unrecorded, but sadly, the other is lost, so I guess I won't be completing things any time soon.)

See? I hadn't even known this thing had been recorded in its proper form, 3-mvt. symphony within a serenade, until Gurn sent me scurrying after Papa Joe's trumpet con. See what the forum can do for you?

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Conrad,
That's great! You're right in the bigger sense too; that sort of thing happens to me all the time. I go looking for one thing and find quite another which turns out to be something I really want!

Thanks for the info about the concerto too. I pondered that for quite some time, but I never ran across that info that you posted. I was thinking something more like a little trumpet (there are some weird ones out there!).

I never found that Amadeus CD for sale, although I did manage to hear the entire thing on YouTube, no video of the actual playing though, just a picture of a keyed trumpet and the album. Sounded very good, a highly polished performance. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 23, 2012, 05:50:09 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 20, 2012, 07:45:50 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if humanity can be divided into four categories
Those whose first experience of Haydn was the Surprise Symphony
Those whose first experience of Haydn was the Trumpet Concerto
Those whose first experience of Haydn was the Keyboard Concerto in D Major
Those who have yet to experience any Haydn at all.

I suppose there are folks whose first Haydn was something else, but the number is probably mathematically trivial.

*raises hand*

Opus 76, sir.

EDIT: Don't believe I've actually heard any of the 3 cited works. I've heard snippets of the Farewell, on television, but not the whole thing.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 23, 2012, 06:46:48 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 21, 2012, 07:21:30 AM
The other work(s) I would add, which I discovered during the course of my previous series of essays, is the Op 76 string quartets. I was surprised how many, like myself, took their interest in Haydn, string quartets, and chamber music in general from a disk of Op 76 #1-3. :)

8)

Quote from: orfeo on April 23, 2012, 05:50:09 AM
*raises hand*

Opus 76, sir.

EDIT: Don't believe I've actually heard any of the 3 cited works. I've heard snippets of the Farewell, on television, but not the whole thing.

I wrote it... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on April 23, 2012, 05:05:04 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 23, 2012, 06:46:48 AM
I wrote it... :D

8)

Come to think of it, Opus 76 was the first Haydn chamber music I heard (via the Kodaly Quartet), and by pure happenstance. I have to admit that when I got around to other recordings, I realized I don't particularly like the Kodaly performance--seems rather stodgy and a bit boring overall.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 23, 2012, 05:12:12 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 23, 2012, 05:05:04 PM
Come to think of it, Opus 76 was the first Haydn chamber music I heard (via the Kodaly Quartet), and by pure happenstance. I have to admit that when I got around to other recordings, I realized I don't particularly like the Kodaly performance--seems rather stodgy and a bit boring overall.

Mine was the Carmina Quartet. Still an excellent performance even though I now know many others. My good fortune. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2012, 06:18:15 AM

I enjoyed doing that trumpet concerto essay, hope y'all did too. I would be interested in doing another, maybe something on this list has some appeal for some of you. If so, just point it out. :)

The oratorio version of "The Seven Last Words"

One of the Notturnos for the King of Naples, in both versions.

Any of the symphonies, especially an early one.

One of the Baryton Octets

The Scherzandos

One of the early divertimentos for string quartet.

These are all some things that I am particularly interested in researching right now. If anyone else is interested, please let me know. Or, if you have another request, something you are curious about, toss it in there too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 24, 2012, 06:38:14 AM

I'll vote for the baryton octuor.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 24, 2012, 06:43:26 AM

Spooky, eh? No sooner had I posted that, than my trusty mailman tapped my shoulder to deliver this:

[asin]B005TLWOH2[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on April 24, 2012, 06:53:47 AM

Gurn, any of those topics would be of interest to me.

I discovered another string quartet opus which has become a favorite of mine: The Op. 55, especially No. 2 in F minor, and especially Movement II. of that quartet. Seems I've not paid as much attention to Op. 55 as Opp. 33, 64 and 76 - but I am finding these quartets to be very interesting and possessing some nice harmonic twists.

Right now I'm listening to the Panocha Quartet play the F minor quartet and it is a bit faster than the Angeles Quartet which was the performance I listened to yesterday. I haven't decided which one I like more, but am leaning towards the slower one.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on April 24, 2012, 07:01:20 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 24, 2012, 06:43:26 AM
Spooky, eh? No sooner had I posted that, than my trusty mailman tapped my shoulder to deliver this:

[asin]B005TLWOH2[/asin]

My first exposure to this was a week or two ago. I thought the band caught fire with the Paris set. Love to hear your impressions, Karl.

Gurn: I vote for anything barytonish, or something about Sturm und Drang in a Haydn symphony, what it sounds like in different hands, how it acts on the listener, whathaveyou.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 24, 2012, 11:06:39 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on April 24, 2012, 07:01:20 AM
My first exposure to this was a week or two ago. I thought the band caught fire with the Paris set. Love to hear your impressions, Karl.

So far, I'm just dipping a bit (one symphony) into each disc; really enjoying it! Haven't made it to Les Parisiennes yet.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2012, 11:14:35 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 24, 2012, 11:06:39 AM
So far, I'm just dipping a bit (one symphony) into each disc; really enjoying it! Haven't made it to Les Parisiennes yet.

Quote from: chasmaniac on April 24, 2012, 07:01:20 AM
My first exposure to this was a week or two ago. I thought the band caught fire with the Paris set. Love to hear your impressions, Karl.

Gurn: I vote for anything barytonish, or something about Sturm und Drang in a Haydn symphony, what it sounds like in different hands, how it acts on the listener, whathaveyou.

I think both of you guys will really be pleased with that purchase. I can only think of one discouraging word I ever heard about them, and it surely didn't come from me! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 24, 2012, 11:16:13 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 24, 2012, 11:14:35 AM
I think both of you guys will really be pleased with that purchase. I can only think of one discouraging word I ever heard about them, and it surely didn't come from me! :)

8)

And, perhaps surprisingly, it didn't come from me. I like Weil's Haydn 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 24, 2012, 11:17:49 AM

No reason why we who dig Szell's Haydn shouldn't like Weil as well! : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 24, 2012, 11:35:10 AM

Quote from: Arnold on April 24, 2012, 06:53:47 AMSeems I've not paid as much attention to Op. 55 as Opp. 33, 64 and 76....

I haven't paid much attention to 55 either. In more than 40 years of collecting, I had no LP versions at all, and only the Kodaly on CD until a few months ago when the Amadeus box arrived. I ordered the Auryn CD the other day. Need a PI set too, I suppose (just to keep Gurn off my back ;D )

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2012, 11:47:08 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 24, 2012, 11:16:13 AM
And, perhaps surprisingly, it didn't come from me. I like Weil's Haydn 8)

Sarge

I wasn't surprised. Your taste is excellent, albeit often divergent from my own. So much good music out there! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 24, 2012, 11:48:46 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 24, 2012, 11:47:08 AM
I wasn't surprised. Your taste is excellent, albeit often divergent from my own.

Artfully done! : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2012, 11:49:24 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 24, 2012, 11:35:10 AM
I haven't paid much attention to 55 either. In more than 40 years of collecting, I had no LP versions at all, and only the Kodaly on CD until a few months ago when the Amadeus box arrived. I ordered the Auryn CD the other day. Need a PI set too, I suppose (just to keep Gurn off my back ;D )

Sarge

Boy, they're thin on the ground though, Sarge. I know you don't like the Festetics, and I don't think you would be wild about the Salomon's (even if you could find theirs), which pretty well uses up all the PI choices. How sad is that?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on April 24, 2012, 11:54:16 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 24, 2012, 11:35:10 AM
I haven't paid much attention to 55 either. In more than 40 years of collecting, I had no LP versions at all, and only the Kodaly on CD until a few months ago when the Amadeus box arrived. I ordered the Auryn CD the other day. Need a PI set too, I suppose (just to keep Gurn off my back ;D )

Sarge

I could be wrong but all I can find for Op. 55 on PI are these:

The Salomen Quartet
London Haydn Quartet

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on April 24, 2012, 11:59:12 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 24, 2012, 11:49:24 AM
Boy, they're thin on the ground though, Sarge. I know you don't like the Festetics, and I don't think you would be wild about the Salomon's (even if you could find theirs), which pretty well uses up all the PI choices. How sad is that?

8)

Didn't know about the Festetics - I'll have to double check my library for that, and I think my Google search gave took a wrong turn with the London Haydn Quartet.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2012, 12:00:12 PM

Quote from: Arnold on April 24, 2012, 11:59:12 AM
Didn't know about the Festetics - I'll have to double check my library for that, and I think my Google search gave took a wrong turn with the London Haydn Quartet.

AH. Google did you in. Been there... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 24, 2012, 12:12:08 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 24, 2012, 11:49:24 AM
Boy, they're thin on the ground though, Sarge. I know you don't like the Festetics, and I don't think you would be wild about the Salomon's (even if you could find theirs), which pretty well uses up all the PI choices. How sad is that?

8)

Sad, really sad. And it doesn't look like the London Haydn has recorded them yet. I did listen to the Festetics clips. 54 and 55 are bundled together, two CDs for the price of one at Amazon DE. That's the good news. Unfortunately, I think they sound dreadful. Pity. I sometimes wish I could borrow your ears, Gurn ;D ;)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 24, 2012, 12:27:52 PM

Has anyone heard this quartet's op.55? Meta4 (http://www.amazon.de/Streichquartette-Op-55-1-3-Meta4/dp/B0021R51E0/ref=sr_1_8?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1335298259&sr=1-8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on April 24, 2012, 12:40:35 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 24, 2012, 12:27:52 PM
Has anyone heard this quartet's op.55? Meta4 (http://www.amazon.de/Streichquartette-Op-55-1-3-Meta4/dp/B0021R51E0/ref=sr_1_8?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1335298259&sr=1-8)

Sarge

It is on Spotify and I'm listening right now.

EDIT: Very nicely played - I think on period instruments, played with plenty of character but not exaggeratedly, technically precise, the ensembling is impressive; a nice addition, by a new group, to the rather paltry selections for this opus, especially on PI.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 24, 2012, 01:31:27 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 24, 2012, 06:18:15 AM
I enjoyed doing that trumpet concerto essay, hope y'all did too. I would be interested in doing another, maybe something on this list has some appeal for some of you. If so, just point it out. :)

The oratorio version of "The Seven Last Words"

One of the Notturnos for the King of Naples, in both versions.

Any of the symphonies, especially an early one.

One of the Baryton Octets

The Scherzandos

One of the early divertimentos for string quartet.

These are all some things that I am particularly interested in researching right now. If anyone else is interested, please let me know. Or, if you have another request, something you are curious about, toss it in there too. :)

8)

I'm doing my own 'thing' at the moment on that Missa cellensis H.XXII.5; some day would enjoy your take, you'll soon enough have mine!

Meanwhile if you want to play with one of the real oddities, how about Symphony 25 - the one and only one that could possibly be someone else's?

Or perhaps the D Major Cello concerto - two lullabies and a nursery tune, to paraphrase Burke - which is also thought by some to be not quite the real deal despite an autograph score. Did he really write it from scratch, or did he maybe take someone else's outline (Kraft's?) and just touch it up?

Or maybe whatever it is YOU most want to do at the moment, which is likely to be the best.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 24, 2012, 01:37:38 PM

Quote from: Arnold on April 24, 2012, 12:40:35 PM
It is on Spotify and I'm listening right now.

EDIT: Very nicely played - I think on period instruments, played with plenty of character but not exaggeratedly, technically precise, the ensembling is impressive; a nice addition, by a new group, to the rather paltry selections for this opus, especially on PI.

Thanks for the feedback. A used copy was available for 7 Euro. I'll soon hear it myself.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2012, 05:55:13 PM

Well, it seems to be down to either Stürm und Dräng or Baryton divertimentos. I think I'll diverge from concertos for now so I don't wear them out, so I think I'll take on the real challenge; one of the Baryton Octets (or maybe the Quintet). There isn't a lot of ink spilled on those, so research should be interesting. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnFluteTriosAgoracover.jpg)
Ensemble Agora - Hob 04_08 Trio in C for Flute, Violin & Cello 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on April 24, 2012, 06:06:17 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 24, 2012, 12:12:08 PM
Sad, really sad. And it doesn't look like the London Haydn has recorded them yet. I did listen to the Festetics clips. 54 and 55 are bundled together, two CDs for the price of one at Amazon DE. That's the good news. Unfortunately, I think they sound dreadful. Pity. I sometimes wish I could borrow your ears, Gurn ;D ;)

Sarge

Not to worry, Sarge. The Festetics don't sound all that good to me, either--I have them playing Mozart.
I guess we just need to wait for the London Haydn Qt. to work their way through.

Meanwhile, broke out the Van Swieten Trio box set of the Piano Trios this evening and have CD 1 playing now (Hob XV: 1, 5, C1 and 37). Hopefully the rest of the set is as good as this first one.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2012, 06:14:03 PM

Purchases today:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnAmsterdam4tetcover1.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnFluteTriosKuijkens2cover.jpg)

Always on the lookout for PI quartets, I ran across this one recently and it finally made it to the top of the 'Buy it now' list. Boy, are these guys good! Their choice of repertoire on this disk is a nice blend of early and late, ranging from Op 20#3 to Op 74 #1 and Op 76 #1. The playing is crisp, the tempos are my ideal; brisk but articulate. Also, the recorded sound is superb. I will be getting their other disk in the not too distant. :)

The other set by the Kuijkens is nowhere near as new, but the style is timeless. I got it to have an alternative recording of the 'London Trios', and it is a fine one. Of interest to those who like to hear attributions and try to figure out why is the presence here of Op 5. This was published in the mid-1760's, a set of 6 Divertimenti a quattro for Traverso, Violin, Viola & Cello. Of the 6, (most likely) the only 2 that originated with Haydn are Hob 2_01 & 11. The original scoring for these 2 was Flute, Oboe, 2 Violins & Basso, so not a big switch to the current. The remaining 4 are.... Haydnesque. :) Interesting listening though, I enjoyed them.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHaselbckOrgancover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKoopmanOrgancover.jpg)

And also, I wanted some more takes on the organ concerti. I have been looking at that Haselböck ever since I got this one;
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHaselbckcover.jpg)

which, as I may have mentioned, is a peach. The Koopman was recommended to me here just a couple of weeks ago and I figured what the hell, I might as well round it out. I haven't listened yet to either of these, but I am considering a history of the works and a survey of available PI disks down the road, so probably a report back then will be in order. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2012, 06:16:48 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 24, 2012, 06:06:17 PM
Not to worry, Sarge. The Festetics don't sound all that good to me, either--I have them playing Mozart.
I guess we just need to wait for the London Haydn Qt. to work their way through.

Meanwhile, broke out the Van Swieten Trio box set of the Piano Trios this evening and have CD 1 playing now (Hob XV: 1, 5, C1 and 37). Hopefully the rest of the set is as good as this first one.

IMO, the rest of the set is even better than the disks of the very early ones, which sound better to me on cembalo. The later ones are really good! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mr. Stevens Senior on April 24, 2012, 11:31:06 PM

The Buchberger quartet, Haydn's string quartets.

[asin]B002F3BQ08[/asin]

I like Haydn, or thought I did. Sometimes I experience melody and sweentess. Other times they sound like someone's whacking cats with a broom, screeching and bluegrass-tuning sounds. It's like eating a hard pear -- you know it's a pear, you remember how good pears are, but this one's not tasting right. What's my problem?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 25, 2012, 01:25:18 AM

HA! ;D

It just so happens that a few days ago, a bunch of us finished a blind listening to some Haydn string quartet recordings from Opus 50.

The Buchbergers came last. By a long way. So the reason you don't like this is probably because the performances are awful.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Willoughby earl of Itacarius on April 25, 2012, 01:27:01 AM

Quote from: Mr. Stevens Senior on April 24, 2012, 11:31:06 PM
The Buchberger quartet, Haydn's string quartets.

I like Haydn, or thought I did. Sometimes I experience melody and sweentess. Other times they sound like someone's whacking cats with a broom, screeching and bluegrass-tuning sounds. It's like eating a hard pear -- you know it's a pear, you remember how good pears are, but this one's not tasting right. What's my problem?

I have the first four volumes of the Buchbergers, but stopped buying the rest, for I thought they did not do justice to Haydn, in fact I found them to be boring. So that part I do understand. Haydn's SQ are core repertoire and beyond criticism, but that does not mean you have to like them, maybe is simply not your thing. Try some other interpretations, and if the feeling is still the same, simple lay aside these SQ, and listen to the things you like.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Willoughby earl of Itacarius on April 25, 2012, 01:28:06 AM

Quote from: orfeo on April 25, 2012, 01:25:18 AM
HA! ;D

It just so happens that a few days ago, a bunch of us finished a blind listening to some Haydn string quartet recordings from Opus 50.

The Buchbergers came last. By a long way. So the reason you don't like this is probably because the performances are awful.

Not awful, just different, they had some very good critical acclaim when released.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 25, 2012, 01:30:19 AM

Quote from: Harry on April 25, 2012, 01:28:06 AM
Not awful, just different, they had some very good critical acclaim when released.

Tell that to all the people who listened to the first movement of Op.50/1. There was a remarkably universal lack of enjoyment.

I would post the link if I'd figured out how to do that in this forum yet.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Willoughby earl of Itacarius on April 25, 2012, 01:37:12 AM

Quote from: orfeo on April 25, 2012, 01:30:19 AM
Tell that to all the people who listened to the first movement of Op.50/1. There was a remarkably universal lack of enjoyment.

I would post the link if I'd figured out how to do that in this forum yet.

What I wanted to say my dear friend, that there are also people who like this recording, without me denying that there are people that dislike it. No need to prove that. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on April 25, 2012, 03:10:34 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 24, 2012, 06:14:03 PM
Purchases today:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnAmsterdam4tetcover1.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnFluteTriosKuijkens2cover.jpg)

Always on the lookout for PI quartets, I ran across this one recently and it finally made it to the top of the 'Buy it now' list. Boy, are these guys good! Their choice of repertoire on this disk is a nice blend of early and late, ranging from Op 20#3 to Op 74 #1 and Op 76 #1. The playing is crisp, the tempos are my ideal; brisk but articulate. Also, the recorded sound is superb. I will be getting their other disk in the not too distant. :)

The other set by the Kuijkens is nowhere near as new, but the style is timeless. I got it to have an alternative recording of the 'London Trios', and it is a fine one. Of interest to those who like to hear attributions and try to figure out why is the presence here of Op 5. This was published in the mid-1760's, a set of 6 Divertimenti a quattro for Traverso, Violin, Viola & Cello. Of the 6, (most likely) the only 2 that originated with Haydn are Hob 2_01 & 11. The original scoring for these 2 was Flute, Oboe, 2 Violins & Basso, so not a big switch to the current. The remaining 4 are.... Haydnesque. :) Interesting listening though, I enjoyed them.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHaselbckOrgancover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKoopmanOrgancover.jpg)

And also, I wanted some more takes on the organ concerti. I have been looking at that Haselböck ever since I got this one;
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHaselbckcover.jpg)

which, as I may have mentioned, is a peach. The Koopman was recommended to me here just a couple of weeks ago and I figured what the hell, I might as well round it out. I haven't listened yet to either of these, but I am considering a history of the works and a survey of available PI disks down the road, so probably a report back then will be in order. :)

8)

Yep, the Amsterdam Quartet is nice find, that makes two new PI quartets doing Haydn this week! The other one was the Meta4 group. I hate to keep playing the Spotify card, but all these discs (including Vol. 2 from the Amsterdammers) are there and I have been listening to them with great pleasure. ;)

That Kuijken disc of works attributed to Haydn is also very nice despite the ragged pedigree. I think I was the one who recommended the Koopman organ concerto disc. Although there's just a few of them on that recording, they are played well and I enjoy his work ion general.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 25, 2012, 03:23:18 AM

Quote from: Mr. Stevens Senior on April 24, 2012, 11:31:06 PM
Other times they sound like someone's whacking cats with a broom...

;D :D ;D

Hurwitz (Classics Today) likened the Buchberger's op.20 to an "all-out cat fight." Although I generally prefer my Hadyn quartets to be polished and polite, I do enjoy the wildness of the Buchbergers op.20 on occasion (listening to the G minor right now, actually). As a steady diet? No...I value my ears too much :D But they're an interesting alternative view. I would think their approach works less well in op.50.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 25, 2012, 04:16:56 AM

Quote from: Arnold on April 25, 2012, 03:10:34 AM
Yep, the Amsterdam Quartet is nice find, that makes two new PI quartets doing Haydn this week! The other one was the Meta4 group. I hate to keep playing the Spotify card, but all these discs (including Vol. 2 from the Amsterdammers) are there and I have been listening to them with great pleasure. ;)

That Kuijken disc of works attributed to Haydn is also very nice despite the ragged pedigree. I think I was the one who recommended the Koopman organ concerto disc. Although there's just a few of them on that recording, they are played well and I enjoy his work ion general.

:)

It certainly is a handy thing to be able to hear these before having to commit to buying them. I always sort of edge up on new (to me) performers for that reason. :)

Yes, I was pretty sure it was you who rec'd that Koopman, but I wasn't sure and hate making mistakes. But I got it for the same reasons you list. I always liked him too. In addition, that and the Haselböck have only 1 work in common, which is the lovely #2, so I didn't feel heavily that I was buying the same thing twice. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on April 25, 2012, 04:32:29 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 24, 2012, 12:27:52 PM
Has anyone heard this quartet's op.55? Meta4 (http://www.amazon.de/Streichquartette-Op-55-1-3-Meta4/dp/B0021R51E0/ref=sr_1_8?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1335298259&sr=1-8)

Sarge

Ah, too late, I see. Not that they're bad at all. But on the same label as the Minetti Quartet, released shortly after their Haydn, I had hoped for more, yet.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 25, 2012, 04:32:52 AM

I'm with Sarge, their fast tempo makes them performances that you have to be in the mood to like... but sometimes I am and I really like them on those days. Whacking cats with a broom makes my day though! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 25, 2012, 06:19:38 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 25, 2012, 03:23:18 AM
I would think their approach works less well in op.50.

My response was "LOOK OUT FOR THE CLIFF!". Slightly less distinctive than whacking cats with a broom, but I think the sentiment is much the same.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on April 25, 2012, 07:06:56 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on April 25, 2012, 04:32:29 AM
Ah, too late, I see. Not that they're bad at all. But on the same label as the Minetti Quartet, released shortly after their Haydn, I had hoped for more, yet.

That's damning them with faint praise, IMO - and don't know what you mean by 'on the same label as the Minetti Quartet".

Here's what a reviewer in Fanfare had to say

QuoteFour casually dressed youngsters, a girl and three boys, adorn the cover. Scowling into the camera, they look like a teen-aged gang. They are Finns, and I quail at the challenge of spelling their names: from first violin to cello, Antti Tikkanen, Minna Pensola, Atte Kilpeläinen, and Tomas Djupsjöbacka. Formed in 2001, the quartet has won the usual honors and awards (usual, that is, for quartets which make recordings on major labels) and has played in the major chamber halls internationally—only the Concertgebouw is absent from its résumé. This is META4's debut recording, and it's a beauty. It employs ancient instruments, including a Stradivarius violin, and is well attuned to period practices. (emphasis added)

Don't know how much weight this reviewer can be given seeing as he seems to consider the Buchberger Quartet a reference recording, and they were pretty well dispised on this board in the Haydn Op. 50 thread.

Nevertheless, I found the META4 recording more than just passing good, and am glad there is a period performance of this neglected opus number and agree with his conclusion: "this is a fine CD, an admirable introduction to the young ensemble. I look forward to hearing more from META4."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 25, 2012, 07:08:34 AM

Scowling Finns. Was there ever a time when that was cute? Mid-14^th century, perhaps?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 25, 2012, 07:09:42 AM

BTW, if the Strad is "an ancient instrument," Paganini was a PI performer. Just saying.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on April 25, 2012, 07:24:08 AM

Watched the Grabsky flick on DVD last night with great pleasure. Not enough of anything in it of course. To quite satisfy the Haydnista it would have to be 9 hours long! The "movement" videos are a very nice bonus. My attachment to Brautigam is cemented. But what was Emmanuel Ax talking about?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on April 25, 2012, 07:25:04 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 25, 2012, 07:09:42 AM
BTW, if the Strad is "an ancient instrument," Paganini was a PI performer. Just saying.

Right. I looked at their website (http://www.meta4.fi/?LanguageID=3#) and while they play "old" instruments there is no indication that they use gut strings or period bows.

QuoteThe quartet members play distinguished instruments, including an Antonio & Hieronymus Amati violin from 1618 and a cello made by Lorenzo Storioni in Cremona in 1780. They also have a Stradivarius violin from 1702, which is on loan from the Pohjola Bank Art Foundation.

The quartet released a Haydn recording on Hänssler Classics in May 2009, for which it was awarded the distinguished Echo Klassic Award 2010. A new record will be released in the spring 2012.

Nevertheless, the recording is rather nice sounding to my ears. But, get your salt shakers at the ready since I am not a professional reviewer.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 25, 2012, 07:29:07 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on April 25, 2012, 07:24:08 AM
Watched the Grabsky flick on DVD last night with great pleasure. Not enough of anything in it of course. To quite satisfy the Haydnista it would have to be 9 hours long! The "movement" videos are a very nice bonus. My attachment to Brautigam is cemented. But what was Emmanuel Ax talking about?

That Manny! He's such a card! : )

He's a huge name, of course . . . and it was a coup for Grabsky to get him for the Beethoven film (I've not seen the Mozart film which came first of all . . . maybe Manny was there at the start!).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 25, 2012, 07:29:32 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on April 25, 2012, 04:32:29 AM
Ah, too late, I see. Not that they're bad at all. But on the same label as the Minetti Quartet, released shortly after their Haydn, I had hoped for more, yet.

Well, the Minetti sets the bar pretty high. "Not bad at all" is probably good enough for me ;) Even if they prove disappointing (I don't expect they will) it won't be a financial disaster. Got it cheap.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 25, 2012, 07:31:22 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 25, 2012, 07:08:34 AM
Scowling Finns. Was there ever a time when that was cute?

I don't know, Karl, but that picture is what sold me ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on April 25, 2012, 07:36:24 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 25, 2012, 07:29:07 AM
That Manny! He's such a card! : )

He's a huge name, of course . . . and it was a coup for Grabsky to get him for the Beethoven film (I've not seen the Mozart film which came first of all . . . maybe Manny was there at the start!).

I wanted to like him! He did a fantastic series on CBC radio years ago exploring various piano concerti, and of course he's a contemporary guy as well - John Adams and all that. So I wanted his perspective on Haydn. So naturally he went on and on about Mozart and Beethoven! Ah well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on April 25, 2012, 08:09:13 AM

I found the Minetti Quartet recording that was mentioned:

Haydn: String Quartets No. 51, 59, "The Rider" And 64

[asin]B001TD1XPI[/asin]

Listening right now. Out of the gate they are not bringing as much energy to the music as META4, which when you hear the recording, and if you are like me, you will be struck immediately by a sense of focus and excitement from the very first note. I'll be interested in what Sarge thinks after he's heard them.

The Minetti is not shabby by any stretch, actually, this recording (so far) sounds wonderful. They take a more lyrical approach with solo playing that is some of the tenderest I've heard - but since there was a comparison made, for me, META4 is the more interesting performance of Haydn.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 25, 2012, 09:38:07 AM

Quote from: Arnold on April 25, 2012, 08:09:13 AM
I found the Minetti Quartet recording that was mentioned:

Haydn: String Quartets No. 51, 59, "The Rider" And 64

[asin]B001TD1XPI[/asin]

Listening right now. Out of the gate they are not bringing as much energy to the music as META4, which when you hear the recording, and if you are like me, you will be struck immediately by a sense of focus and excitement from the very first note. I'll be interested in what Sarge thinks after he's heard them.

The Minetti is not shabby by any stretch, actually, this recording (so far) sounds wonderful. They take a more lyrical approach with solo playing that is some of the tenderest I've heard - but since there was a comparison made, for me, META4 is the more interesting performance of Haydn.

:)

You failed to mention the most important thing about the Minetti, and of singular importance to me....the two violin babes ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 25, 2012, 09:42:46 AM

Gotta say it:

Listening to the Hob.IV/11. I know it's "only" a divertimento, but even in this modest theatre, "Papa" stands out!

Graces will out, and there's an end on 't!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on April 25, 2012, 11:34:35 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 25, 2012, 09:38:07 AM
You failed to mention the most important thing about the Minetti, and of singular importance to me....the two violin babes ;D

Sarge

Hah!

;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on April 25, 2012, 01:06:52 PM

Quote from: orfeo on April 25, 2012, 01:30:19 AM
Tell that to all the people who listened to the first movement of Op.50/1. There was a remarkably universal lack of enjoyment.

I would post the link if I'd figured out how to do that in this forum yet.

[ url=http://www.good-music-guide.com/..... ]name of thread[/url]

[ url][/url] -> (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/Themes/default/images/bbc/url.gif)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on April 25, 2012, 04:13:02 PM

I recommend the Tokyo Quartet in Op. 50.

http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Preussische-Quartette-Prussian-Quartets/dp/B001KW976A

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 25, 2012, 04:51:45 PM

I have returned to continue revising and updating the Chronology. Just finished with 1759 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg575803.html#msg575803) for those interested. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnTheStormMcGeganmodcover.jpg)
NDR Chor - FestspielOrchester Göttingen \ McGegan - Hob 24a_08 Madrigal in d for 4 Solo Voices & Chorus 'The Storm'

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mr. Stevens Senior on April 25, 2012, 04:54:17 PM

OK, I'll bite -- which Haydn quartets/artists would you recommend?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sammy on April 25, 2012, 05:23:11 PM

Quote from: Mr. Stevens Senior on April 25, 2012, 04:54:17 PM
OK, I'll bite -- which Haydn quartets/artists would you recommend?

The Tatrai Quartet recordings on Hungaroton should satisfy you - modern instruments and top-rate traditional performances.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on April 25, 2012, 06:35:00 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 25, 2012, 09:38:07 AM
You failed to mention the most important thing about the Minetti, and of singular importance to me....the two violin babes ;D

Sarge

In the interest of gender equality, the male Minettis seem rather hunky looking (not that I'm inclined that way, so perhaps my judgment is off).

And since the price is even more attractive than the performers, I'm ordering it in another tab of my browser as I post this.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 25, 2012, 07:06:02 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 25, 2012, 06:35:00 PM
In the interest of gender equality, the male Minettis seem rather hunky looking (not that I'm inclined that way, so perhaps my judgment is off).

And since the price is even more attractive than the performers, I'm ordering it in another tab of my browser as I post this.

I'm more impressed with the ultra shiny and un-damaged lockers, not what I was used to in school.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on April 25, 2012, 07:33:17 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 25, 2012, 07:06:02 PM
I'm more impressed with the ultra shiny and un-damaged lockers, not what I was used to in school.

Given the babe/buff content of the cover, probably fitness club lockers.

In my high school, we had banged up red painted lockers approximately one foot high by one foot wide by one foot deep.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 26, 2012, 02:46:33 AM

Quote from: Daverz on April 25, 2012, 04:13:02 PM
I recommend the Tokyo Quartet in Op. 50.

http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Preussische-Quartette-Prussian-Quartets/dp/B001KW976A

As did the results of the blind listening test!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 26, 2012, 02:49:37 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 25, 2012, 06:35:00 PM
In the interest of gender equality, the male Minettis seem rather hunky looking (not that I'm inclined that way, so perhaps my judgment is off).

As one so inclined, cello boy's got promise. I'll pass on the viola though, thanks.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 26, 2012, 03:06:16 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 25, 2012, 09:38:07 AM
....the two violin babes

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 25, 2012, 06:35:00 PM
In the interest of gender equality, the male Minettis seem rather hunky looking (not that I'm inclined that way, so perhaps my judgment is off).

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 25, 2012, 07:06:02 PM
I'm more impressed with the ultra shiny and un-damaged lockers

Quote from: orfeo on April 26, 2012, 02:49:37 AM
As one so inclined, cello boy's got promise.

The perfect quartet recording! It has something for everyone ;D The music ain't half bad either 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 26, 2012, 03:12:39 AM

Bah, who cares about the music when you've got the image? Just ask Golijov.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on April 26, 2012, 05:04:13 AM

Quote from: Arnold on April 25, 2012, 07:06:56 AM
That's damning them with faint praise, IMO - and don't know what you mean by 'on the same label as the Minetti Quartet".

...and am glad there is a period performance of this neglected opus number ...

1.) By which I mean: On the same label. (Haenssler Classics)
2.) If Meta4 is a period performance, err... well, can't find an analogy. But they are definitely not HIP.
3.) I, too, am looking forward to more from them.

I had praise for them and their Haydn, albeit mild, three years ago in this forum.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3866.msg321846.html#msg321846 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,3866.msg321846.html#msg321846)

Quote from: jlaurson on June 18, 2009, 12:37:06 AM
The label for which META 4 have recorded their Haydn is Haenssler Classics. Of course Amazon's listing is so shitty again, that you can't find it unless you modify the German URL accordingly.

[It's not audacious, per se... not in the Haydn anniversary year. And it's been done by the Jerusalem Quartet (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001CCHPM6/goodmusicguide-20), the Minetti Quartet (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001TD1XPI/goodmusicguide-20), Quatuor Ebene (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000E97XWK/goodmusicguide-20)... (all fantastic recordings, btw.) and yet, in a subtle way, it's daring just because Haydn isn't a smash hit, usually, and op.55 least of all.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/518kHQ9hGlL._SL500_AA240_.jpg)
Haydn, String Quartets op.55
META 4
Haenssler Classic (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0021R51E0/goodmusicguide-20)
That's the link for the US.

The link for the UK is here (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0021R51E0/nectarandambrUK-21), for France here (http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0021R51E0/nectarandambrFR-21), for Germany here (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0021R51E0/nectarandambr-21).

It's very good stuff, if not quite as immediately outstanding as the Mintetti Quartet disc (http://www.weta.org/fmblog/?p=553). I've only so far compared it to the Buchberger and Kodaly and it's not a flattering comparison for the latter, I'm afraid... but if to chose among Buchberger and Kodaly in op.55, I'd prefer the Kodaly, still, by a small margin. With the Buchberger they just sound like complete run-throughs.

Why haven't Quatuor Mosaiques not recorded those yet? >:(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on April 26, 2012, 07:06:50 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on April 26, 2012, 05:04:13 AM

2.) If Meta4 is a period performance, err... well, can't find an analogy. But they are definitely not HIP.

I know that now; but I had read that they used "ancient instruments", thinking it meant PI, in a review but after listening to them more and visiting their website discovered that the original reviewer had offered some misinformation.

Still, it's a good recording of some Haydn string quartets which seem to be the ugly step child for some reason; most undeservedly I might add.

I don't share your preference for the Minetti, which are also good, but I felt the META4 group brought more verve to their performances.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on April 26, 2012, 07:46:48 AM

Quote from: Arnold on April 26, 2012, 07:06:50 AM
... the original reviewer had offered some misinformation.

Not so much misinformation, if I read it right, than misleading irrelevant information...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on April 26, 2012, 07:49:12 AM

Did Haydn really use his nose for that middle note?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on April 26, 2012, 07:53:26 AM

Quote from: Mr. Stevens Senior on April 25, 2012, 04:54:17 PM
OK, I'll bite -- which Haydn quartets/artists would you recommend?

You can probably get the Tokyo MP3 in Op.50, but otherwise, the Nomos on CPO IS the coco bop!! Accept no alternatives!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on April 26, 2012, 09:26:49 AM

Quatuor Mosaiques on period instruments
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCXg8xo31h0
[asin]B001F0JZZU[/asin]
[asin]B001F0K004[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on April 26, 2012, 12:57:54 PM

Quote from: Sammy on April 25, 2012, 05:23:11 PM
The Tatrai Quartet recordings on Hungaroton should satisfy you - modern instruments and top-rate traditional performances.

Strongly seconded. $:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on April 26, 2012, 03:40:30 PM

After the strong endorsement from the Haydn Op. 50 blind listening thread, I ordered the Tokyo String Quartet performance on CD-R from Archiv Music. It arrived today and I am listening to it as I type.

Arkiv Music did a splendid job with their reproduction and must have some kind of licensing deal with DG since they have flawlessly reproduced all the artwork including the disc itself and booklet. Well worth the $21 it set me back for an otherwise OOP recording.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 26, 2012, 04:22:27 PM

Quote from: orfeo on April 26, 2012, 02:49:37 AM
As one so inclined, cello boy's got promise. I'll pass on the viola though, thanks.

Sorry, my elder son already put in his claim on the cellist. Of course, the cellist doesn't know it, and my son lives in Hollywood, not where the Minettis are, and my son doesn't like classical, but....

As for the ladies, I'm 68 years old. Fantasies are wonderful, but let's leave it at that, okay?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Peregrine on April 27, 2012, 12:37:37 AM

I see no reason to change my mind at the moment!

Quote from: Peregrine on July 18, 2011, 11:43:25 AM
My current picks would be:

Op.20 - Tatrai/Juilliard
Op.33 - Apponyi
Op.50 - Amati
Op.54 - Juilliard
Op.55 - Panocha
Op.64 - Caspar Da Solo
Op.71 - Griller
Op.74 - Griller
Op.76 - Carmina (honorary mentions to Panocha and Tatrai)
Op.77 - Tatrai

Could get into individual quartets, but that could take some time...!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 27, 2012, 07:57:29 AM

Further to the brief discussion that I instigated about the following:

[asin]B002GUJ0RG[/asin]

I discovered it's very easy to find out just what of the Haydn mass is omitted, if this matters to anyone. Just click "purchase MP3" on Amazon (you don't of course have to actually buy anything) and you get a list of the tracks. Armed with that and one of the complete versions, I have learned thus:

Minkowski gives us the Kyrie complete, the Gloria complete; then omits the first section of the Credo but does give us the Et incarnatus and (the spell-binder of the whole mass) the Et resurrexit. He then omits the remainder, the Sanctus, Benedictus, Agnus and Dona nobis. So in the end we get about 40 minutes of what would have been, at his speeds, about 65 for the whole thing. Or, to put it another way, we get 13 of what is usually 18 tracks. No real choice I suppose but to chop something, as each of the 2 discs of the set adds up to about 75 min. Even better, find some other work besides Handel and Purcell that actually had something to do with St. Cecilia - the Haydn is a mistaken attribution - and then give us Haydn complete, on a single disc by itself.

Grump grump.

That said, because I've become quite the completist for this Mass, I think I'm going to go ahead and download the Haydn sections (I have no interest in Handel or Purcell), for a cost of about $13 but that's considerably cheaper than buying the set physically. What little I can hear in the thirty-second snippets they offer sounds quite well done indeed.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 27, 2012, 08:15:36 AM

Interesting, Conrad. Hope you share your reaction to hearing the entire (as it were).

On the subject of masses, a topic that came up during the essay series, which drew only blank stares from the assembled masses but which did and still does fascinate me, is the subject of other, heretofore believed to be secular, work being played during the mass, and how that all worked. That was a hell of a sentence, wasn't it? :D

Anyway, I have been doing some research ever since then and this weekend I will have a little bit to contribute to that. Not a lot, mind you, and I am hoping that someone else may have found something too. I am also trying to put together a reasonably accurate reconstruction that will enable any Haydnisto to be able to listen in a sequence such as it was then. Possibly both a Missa brevis and a Solemn Mass, which would of course differ substantially.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on April 27, 2012, 09:06:41 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 27, 2012, 08:15:36 AM
Interesting, Conrad. Hope you share your reaction to hearing the entire (as it were).

On the subject of masses, a topic that came up during the essay series, which drew only blank stares from the assembled masses but which did and still does fascinate me, is the subject of other, heretofore believed to be secular, work being played during the mass, and how that all worked. That was a hell of a sentence, wasn't it? :D

Anyway, I have been doing some research ever since then and this weekend I will have a little bit to contribute to that. Not a lot, mind you, and I am hoping that someone else may have found something too. I am also trying to put together a reasonably accurate reconstruction that will enable any Haydnisto to be able to listen in a sequence such as it was then. Possibly both a Missa brevis and a Solemn Mass, which would of course differ substantially.

8)

Aren't Mozart's Church/Epistle sonatas an example of that type? I notice that the Neumann set of Mozart masses puts the sonatas in the middle of various masses, and not separate performed.

Of course, it did strike me last night that to have a truly HIP performance of a Bach cantata, you'd need a Lutheran minister giving a sermon in the middle of the cantata.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 27, 2012, 09:37:38 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 27, 2012, 09:06:41 AM
Aren't Mozart's Church/Epistle sonatas an example of that type? I notice that the Neumann set of Mozart masses puts the sonatas in the middle of various masses, and not separate performed.

Of course, it did strike me last night that to have a truly HIP performance of a Bach cantata, you'd need a Lutheran minister giving a sermon in the middle of the cantata.

Yes, indeed they are. And they were the easy ones, since we know they go between the epistle and the gospel. :) But in addition to these, also there were being used concertos and symphonies. These, at first blush, are a bit harder to insert. However, I have gathered a bit of info.

Wow, Neumann did that? That's wonderful. I had figured out which sonatas went with which masses quite some time ago and done that on my own. Haydn will be more challenging, but do-able, I think.

Boy, I'm glad it's you that likes Bach. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on April 27, 2012, 06:34:56 PM

A video was mentioned here not too long ago: In Search of Haydn: A Phil Grabsky Film (2012). This is now $25 at Amazon US: http://www.amazon.com/In-Search-Haydn-Phil-Grabsky/dp/B007N31Y66/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pdT2_S_T1?ie=UTF8&coliid=I4PFCJL23C8QD&colid=1KZWGAWHU2H1 (http://www.amazon.com/In-Search-Haydn-Phil-Grabsky/dp/B007N31Y66/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pdT2_S_T1?ie=UTF8&coliid=I4PFCJL23C8QD&colid=1KZWGAWHU2H1). Thought this might be the best place to mention it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 27, 2012, 06:47:51 PM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on April 27, 2012, 06:34:56 PM
A video was mentioned here not too long ago: In Search of Haydn: A Phil Grabsky Film (2012). This is now $25 at Amazon US: http://www.amazon.com/In-Search-Haydn-Phil-Grabsky/dp/B007N31Y66/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pdT2_S_T1?ie=UTF8&coliid=I4PFCJL23C8QD&colid=1KZWGAWHU2H1 (http://www.amazon.com/In-Search-Haydn-Phil-Grabsky/dp/B007N31Y66/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pdT2_S_T1?ie=UTF8&coliid=I4PFCJL23C8QD&colid=1KZWGAWHU2H1). Thought this might be the best place to mention it.

We strongly recommend it, highly entertaining. Cheap at twice the price. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 27, 2012, 07:17:11 PM

Aye, 'tis a keeper.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on April 27, 2012, 07:20:57 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 27, 2012, 09:37:38 AM
Yes, indeed they are. And they were the easy ones, since we know they go between the epistle and the gospel. :) But in addition to these, also there were being used concertos and symphonies. These, at first blush, are a bit harder to insert. However, I have gathered a bit of info.

Wow, Neumann did that? That's wonderful. I had figured out which sonatas went with which masses quite some time ago and done that on my own. Haydn will be more challenging, but do-able, I think.

Boy, I'm glad it's you that likes Bach. :D

8)

Slight corrective--Neumann only recorded nine of the "church sonatas". But he also recorded two offertoriums and a gradual which he inserted into the liturgically appropriate place as well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on April 28, 2012, 08:33:52 AM

Haydn (Re) Releases:

(https://www.gramola.at/static/shop/9003643988989/cover1.jpg)
J. Haydn et al.
"Haydn ...out of Hainburg
A.Holzapfel / dolce risonanza
Gramola (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B007A9IC18/goodmusicguide-20)
[mp3 only in the US?]
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003JC9HH8/goodmusicguide-21), UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003JC9HH8/goodmusicguideUK-21)

Salve Regina XXIIIb:2, Pieces for small organ XIX: 12-13
+ works by Albrechtsberger, Fux, M.Haydn, Reutter

(https://www.gramola.at/static/shop/9003643989276/cover1.jpg)
J. Haydn et al.
Haydn alla Zingarese
Paul Gulda, R.G.Banda et al.
Gramola (https://www.gramola.at/de/shop/produkte/kammermusik/gramola/paul+gulda,robo+gaspar+banda/haydn+und+tradtion/104465/)
Music Classic edition: German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00002627Q/goodmusicguide-21), UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00002627Q/goodmusicguideUK-21)
Re-release from a 1993 recording, out on CD on the "musica classic" label (Denon?)

Excerpts with gypsy influences from Haydn's oevre interspersed with traditional Hungarian / Gypsy music.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on April 28, 2012, 04:43:39 PM

Quote from: Arnold on April 25, 2012, 08:09:13 AM
I found the Minetti Quartet recording that was mentioned:

Haydn: String Quartets No. 51, 59, "The Rider" And 64

[asin]B001TD1XPI[/asin]

Listening right now. Out of the gate they are not bringing as much energy to the music as META4, which when you hear the recording, and if you are like me, you will be struck immediately by a sense of focus and excitement from the very first note. I'll be interested in what Sarge thinks after he's heard them.

The Minetti is not shabby by any stretch, actually, this recording (so far) sounds wonderful. They take a more lyrical approach with solo playing that is some of the tenderest I've heard - but since there was a comparison made, for me, META4 is the more interesting performance of Haydn.

:)

Received the Minetti CD today, and have it on now. I'm finding they play with appropriate vim and vigor when vim and vigor is called for, but I'm especially struck by the lyricism of their playing--when Papa says "cantabile" they obviously take him seriously. If anything they play these sections a little too much on the romantic side, but not enough to actually harm the performance--or at least it works for me.

One day I'll have to do a match up of my MI recordings of the quartets to see who does what better than whom, but at the moment I'm quite pleased with the Minettis.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2012, 06:17:11 PM

OK, well here's something that I hope will open discussion. I know there are a lot of sacred music lovers here, and this is pertinent to you. But I also hope that people (such as myself) who aren't quite so much, will find this interesting enough to look into the music a bit more. :)

In the course of our discussion of Haydn's music we have touched on a variety of topics that were still a mystery to me. One of those was the way that secular music was incorporated into the celebration of the mass at that time. Where does one fit a symphony or concerto into a mass? After all, it has no liturgical significance. Or maybe it does and we just don't realize. ??

In any case, I decided to do some research and see if I could discover this out. It goes without saying that nowhere in any of my reading does it say 'and then after the Credo, we play the first movement of the symphony in c minor...' ::) That would be way too easy, and here in the Haydn Haus, we don't roll that way. It's the hard way or the highway here, baby! :)

The first question that I wanted to get answered was 'how many parts of the mass are there?'. And the answer, of course, was 'it depends'. But after various false starts, I came up with a solution that satisfied me. The level that I needed to start at, the top level as it were, is divided into two parts. They would be the 'Ordinary' and the 'Proper'. I don't know about you, but Ordinary seems very... common to me. And actually, that's exactly what it is. It contains the six parts that are common to every mass, which is to say, they are what makes a Full Mass. Of course, the two parts are completely interwoven. Nothing is easy!

They didn't all start out being the ordinary at the same time, but over the centuries, and by the time we are interested in (second half of the 18th Century in Vienna), the Ordinary consisted in the Kyrie, the Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Benedictus and Agnus Dei. When you buy a recording of a mass from this era, no matter how many parts each of these is subdivided into, these six parts will be represented (of course, Requiems are a special case. Let's leave them out of this for now).

The prevailing model for masses at the time was the Neapolitan Mass. As you can imagine, being from Baroque Naples, the opera capital of the world, these masses were rather ornate. And of course, in pre-Josephinian Vienna, gilding the lily was standard procedure. So in a big mass, you would have your 6 parts of the Ordinary divided into a total of as many as 18 parts in Haydn's Mass in C, Hob 22_05. This was Haydn's largest mass. However, it didn't set any records for size in general, just for him.

I will follow this with a list of the parts that would be played at a typical Missa longa, or what we would call at other times and places a Missa solemnis. Parts of the Ordinary are in CAPS, while parts or the Proper, which changed with every day of the Liturgical Calendar, are in lower case. In parentheses I put a typical piece or movement of secular music that would have been played at that point. This might be a good time to point out that what we call Church Symphonies really were Church Symphonies! Different ones for different times of year, like Lamentation (#26) or La Passione (#49) probably for Holy Week. Some of these already don't have a minuet movement, but for those that do, it wasn't used in church, and probably was added to make the work more flexible in its uses outside of church.

• Opening music: Organ solos and/or trumpet/timpani fanfares
• Music (Ordinary): a 'Tantum ergo' or an 'Asperges me'
• Music (Proper) and SPOKEN PRAYER: Introit simultaneously with penitential prayers
• Music KYRIE:
o Kyrie eleison
o Christe eleison
o Kyrie eleison
• Music GLORIA
o Gloria in excelsis Deo
o Laudamus te
o Gratias agimus tibi
o Domine Deus, Rex coelestis
o Qui tollis peccata Mundi
o Quoniam tu solus sanctus
o Cum Sancto Spiritu
• Prayer: Collect
• Reading: Epistle
• Music: Gradual (1st movement of a symphony)
• Music: Alleluia or Tract
• Spoken: Gospel and Homily (Sermon)
• Instrumental music: Trumpet & Timpani fanfares (Cool!)
• Music CREDO:
o Credo in unum Deum
o Et incarnatus est
o Et resurrexit
• Music & PRAYER: Offertory (2nd movement of symphony )
• Prayer & Secret (Private Prayer)
• Prayer: Preface (Public Prayer)
• MUSIC: SANCTUS
o Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus
o Pleni sunt coeli
• BENEDICTUS
• PRAYER: Eucharist Prayer
• PRAYER: Lord's Prayer
• MUSIC: AGNUS DEI
o Agnus Dei
o Dona nobis pacem
• Music: Communion (3rd movement of symphony (Finale really, since minuet (if any) was removed))
• Prayer: Post Communion
• MUSIC: Dismissal ('Ite, Missa est')
• SPOKEN: Closing Blessing
• Music: organ postludium and/or trumpet/timpani fanfares

Anyway, I think this gives a much better idea of what a great event was made out of going to mass. Unlike current liturgical practice, it seems like all this artistic splendor could have inspired a true spiritual experience.

I want to point out here that I collected information from several places and consolidated it into this list. So any mistakes or misunderstandings are my own. I hope that some of you whose knowledge is more in depth than my own will take this opportunity to expand this discussion. For myself, I intend to take a Missa brevis from the early period and couple it with an organ concerto in the appropriate sequence and see how it sounds. Also, it should be noted that it was not unusual to start off with a Te Deum either in the event that the mass was celebratory. And to make a more expanded and/or unusual (once a year) work, the entire Stabat Mater was played instead of the Tract on the Feast of the Seven Dolors, which must have been quite an experience!!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on April 29, 2012, 03:28:39 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 28, 2012, 04:43:39 PM
Received the Minetti CD today, and have it on now. I'm finding they play with appropriate vim and vigor when vim and vigor is called for, but I'm especially struck by the lyricism of their playing--when Papa says "cantabile" they obviously take him seriously. If anything they play these sections a little too much on the romantic side, but not enough to actually harm the performance--or at least it works for me.

One day I'll have to do a match up of my MI recordings of the quartets to see who does what better than whom, but at the moment I'm quite pleased with the Minettis.

I agree completely on the lyricism and all I meant with my comment about you describe as "vim and vigor" is not that they lack those qualities, but that they do not bring as much of them to the performance as do the META4 quartet. But then again, it is not an altogether fair comparison since they are playing different works.

I'd love to hear the Minetti Q. do the Op. 55 set.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on April 29, 2012, 03:33:12 AM

In Search of Haydn arrived in yesterday's mail and watched it last night: what a wonderful film! Most of the performances were PI, I loved seeing all those gut strings and period winds as well as the buildings where Haydn would have heard them played.

This DVD along with the Beghin set are all round two of the best purchases of 2012.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 29, 2012, 06:40:39 AM

(* pounds the [antique] table *)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on April 29, 2012, 07:13:33 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 28, 2012, 06:17:11 PM
OK, well here's something that I hope will open discussion. I know there are a lot of sacred music lovers here, and this is pertinent to you. But I also hope that people (such as myself) who aren't quite so much, will find this interesting enough to look into the music a bit more. :)

In the course of our discussion of Haydn's music we have touched on a variety of topics that were still a mystery to me. One of those was the way that secular music was incorporated into the celebration of the mass at that time. Where does one fit a symphony or concerto into a mass? After all, it has no liturgical significance. Or maybe it does and we just don't realize. ??

In any case, I decided to do some research and see if I could discover this out. It goes without saying that nowhere in any of my reading does it say 'and then after the Credo, we play the first movement of the symphony in c minor...' ::) That would be way too easy, and here in the Haydn Haus, we don't roll that way. It's the hard way or the highway here, baby! :)

The first question that I wanted to get answered was 'how many parts of the mass are there?'. And the answer, of course, was 'it depends'. But after various false starts, I came up with a solution that satisfied me. The level that I needed to start at, the top level as it were, is divided into two parts. They would be the 'Ordinary' and the 'Proper'. I don't know about you, but Ordinary seems very... common to me. And actually, that's exactly what it is. It contains the six parts that are common to every mass, which is to say, they are what makes a Full Mass. Of course, the two parts are completely interwoven. Nothing is easy!

They didn't all start out being the ordinary at the same time, but over the centuries, and by the time we are interested in (second half of the 18th Century in Vienna), the Ordinary consisted in the Kyrie, the Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Benedictus and Agnus Dei. When you buy a recording of a mass from this era, no matter how many parts each of these is subdivided into, these six parts will be represented (of course, Requiems are a special case. Let's leave them out of this for now).

The prevailing model for masses at the time was the Neapolitan Mass. As you can imagine, being from Baroque Naples, the opera capital of the world, these masses were rather ornate. And of course, in pre-Josephinian Vienna, gilding the lily was standard procedure. So in a big mass, you would have your 6 parts of the Ordinary divided into a total of as many as 18 parts in Haydn's Mass in C, Hob 22_05. This was Haydn's largest mass. However, it didn't set any records for size in general, just for him.

I will follow this with a list of the parts that would be played at a typical Missa longa, or what we would call at other times and places a Missa solemnis. Parts of the Ordinary are in CAPS, while parts or the Proper, which changed with every day of the Liturgical Calendar, are in lower case. In parentheses I put a typical piece or movement of secular music that would have been played at that point. This might be a good time to point out that what we call Church Symphonies really were Church Symphonies! Different ones for different times of year, like Lamentation (#26) or La Passione (#49) probably for Holy Week. Some of these already don't have a minuet movement, but for those that do, it wasn't used in church, and probably was added to make the work more flexible in its uses outside of church.

• Opening music: Organ solos and/or trumpet/timpani fanfares
• Music (Ordinary): a 'Tantum ergo' or an 'Asperges me'
• Music (Proper) and SPOKEN PRAYER: Introit simultaneously with penitential prayers
• Music KYRIE:
o Kyrie eleison
o Christe eleison
o Kyrie eleison
• Music GLORIA
o Gloria in excelsis Deo
o Laudamus te
o Gratias agimus tibi
o Domine Deus, Rex coelestis
o Qui tollis peccata Mundi
o Quoniam tu solus sanctus
o Cum Sancto Spiritu
• Prayer: Collect
• Reading: Epistle
• Music: Gradual (1st movement of a symphony)
• Music: Alleluia or Tract
• Spoken: Gospel and Homily (Sermon)
• Instrumental music: Trumpet & Timpani fanfares (Cool!)
• Music CREDO:
o Credo in unum Deum
o Et incarnatus est
o Et resurrexit
• Music & PRAYER: Offertory (2nd movement of symphony )
• Prayer & Secret (Private Prayer)
• Prayer: Preface (Public Prayer)
• MUSIC: SANCTUS
o Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus
o Pleni sunt coeli
• BENEDICTUS
• PRAYER: Eucharist Prayer
• PRAYER: Lord's Prayer
• MUSIC: AGNUS DEI
o Agnus Dei
o Dona nobis pacem
• Music: Communion (3rd movement of symphony (Finale really, since minuet (if any) was removed))
• Prayer: Post Communion
• MUSIC: Dismissal ('Ite, Missa est')
• SPOKEN: Closing Blessing
• Music: organ postludium and/or trumpet/timpani fanfares

Anyway, I think this gives a much better idea of what a great event was made out of going to mass. Unlike current liturgical practice, it seems like all this artistic splendor could have inspired a true spiritual experience.

I want to point out here that I collected information from several places and consolidated it into this list. So any mistakes or misunderstandings are my own. I hope that some of you whose knowledge is more in depth than my own will take this opportunity to expand this discussion. For myself, I intend to take a Missa brevis from the early period and couple it with an organ concerto in the appropriate sequence and see how it sounds. Also, it should be noted that it was not unusual to start off with a Te Deum either in the event that the mass was celebratory. And to make a more expanded and/or unusual (once a year) work, the entire Stabat Mater was played instead of the Tract on the Feast of the Seven Dolors, which must have been quite an experience!!

8)

Excellant research Gurn! I really enjoyed reading this, the subject of secular music within the high mass in the 18th Century is a subject I haven't looked into, so thanks!

Along with keyboard literature of the 18th century, my other passion is collecting masses from this era, and your overview is most excellant and I'm sure a fine introduction to those new in discovering the music of the mass.

On a personal note, the music of the 18th Century mass influenced my converting to Catholicism some years ago. I've always been interested in the study of the liturgy and the history of this ritual. There are still parishes that hold the old latin mass, although, it's not quite the spectacle as you describe in the 18th century! I like the latin mass because of the beauty of the ritual, and appreciate the history and it's connection to my favorite liturgical music of the 18th century. I suppose there are still special masses on this scale in Rome, but not where I live!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 29, 2012, 07:24:02 AM

Quote from: Leo K on April 29, 2012, 07:13:33 AM
Excellant research Gurn! I really enjoyed reading this, the subject of secular music within the high mass in the 18th Century is a subject I haven't looked into, so thanks!

Along with keyboard literature of the 18th century, my other passion is collecting masses from this era, and your overview is most excellant and I'm sure a fine introduction to those new in discovering the music of the mass.

On a personal note, the music of the 18th Century mass influenced my converting to Catholicism some years ago. I've always been interested in the study of the liturgy and the history of this ritual. There are still parishes that hold the old latin mass, although, it's not quite the spectacle as you describe in the 18th century! I like the latin mass because of the beauty of the ritual, and appreciate the history and it's connection to my favorite liturgical music of the 18th century. I suppose there are still special masses on this scale in Rome, but not where I live!

Thanks, Leo. Pleased you benefited from it. I suspect I am substantially older than you, and when I was youngish, all masses were in Latin. I was an altar boy and knew every bit of the masses by heart. Frequently served on weekdays before school, which was when the feast days were celebrated, and knew the Proper's for those too. Despite never being a believer, I hugely enjoyed taking part in the liturgy. Our parish had a great organ and choir too, which made it that much more interesting. When the Latin liturgy was junked in the mid-'60's, there was no longer any reason for me to hang around, and so I didn't. But to get to partake in something like the Großeorgelsolomesse I would go back again today! 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 29, 2012, 07:55:54 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 28, 2012, 06:17:11 PM
........................
Anyway, I think this gives a much better idea of what a great event was made out of going to mass. Unlike current liturgical practice, it seems like all this artistic splendor could have inspired a true spiritual experience.........................

Hi Gurn - just getting back to the forum after a short mountain vacation - :)

Thanks for the discussion on the mass - cannot really add much more to the topic regarding your points concerning incorporation of a composer's secular music into sacred compositions, but I suspect in the Baroque & Classical periods using one's music (or transcriptions or other composer's music 'altered' as needed) interchangeably was quite common; of course, we all know this fact but it does beg an answer as to 'how often' the practice was done? :D

Now as a boy when I lived in Toledo (until the age of 12 y/o - we moved to southern Michigan near the Ohio border), I attended a Catholic school (St. Anne's) and being in a church and hearing the mass in Latin (and smelling the incense) was indeed an inspiring experience for a young lad. Having visited many of the famous cathedrals in Europe over the years, I can only imagine the feelings of a person in those times going to mass, being inside those magnificent buildings, and listening to the accompanying music - INDEED, an awe inspiring spiritual experience that transported these people to another plane in their lives!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 29, 2012, 08:00:51 AM

Much impressed, even bowled over, by the research and information on the mass. Having no direct experience with the Catholic service I would not have known exactly what was supposed to have been sequenced where; I just knew, vaguely, that there was a sequence, and on High Holy days and various other solemn occasions, it was L-O-N-G. (On the other hand, allegedly the telescoping of texts in the Missa Brevis was designed specifically to keep things SHORT on Low Mass days; one explanation for the telescoping says it was supposed to get people out of cold unheated churches more quickly in winter. Apocryphal? Probably.)

In common with Leo K. (but in my case for no known reason related to actual belief) I have a 'thing' for the liturgical music of this era, going back to the man who appears to be Leo's great love, J.A. Hasse. But more than anyone else, it's the brothers Haydn of course. And in that regard I went poking around my books and recordings and discovered that, with Michael Haydn at least, it is possible to in effect recreate the musical components of one such solemn mass in all its (choral at least) parts. It's this disc:

[asin]B00003GA98[/asin]

which looks maybe to be out of print in the US but is still readily had in the UK and Germany, if that helps anyone. Too bad this picture doesn't show you the back paper, because this is what they've done:

Principally it is the Missa Sancta Theresiae, MH 796. (The disc calls it 797; it's a technical point. 796 is the Mass as originally written; 797 is a replacement version of one section only, which is used here. Call it either number, I'd say.) Then they insert the Gradual MH 798, the Offertory MH 799 and end with the Te Deum MH 800, all of which were written within a couple of weeks and are clearly intended as a "set." (Why, you even get the original version of that replaced part of the original mass, because Haydn re-used the old version as the end of the Te Deum.) All together then, they give you a sense of the vocal portion of the day's events, and if you wanted to slip in someone's little Sinfonia (probably not Michael's, as at the time of writing this mass he hadn't written a symphony in 14 years) or an appropriate concerto, fine, that's what programming menus on CD changers are made for.

You can also do it with another "set," MH 826 (Missa Sancti Francisci Seraphici) with its attachments, MH 827 the Offertory, MH 828 the Gradual, and MH 829 the Te Deum - only in this case unfortunately you have to buy four different CDs, as no two parts have ever appeared on the same disc.

And then at the other end of his career there's the limited possibility of this CD:

[asin]B00008GQAJ[/asin]

Two very early masses and the Te Deum intended for the second of them; but there are no other things from these earliest days to fit in, so either they weren't used in the churches of the far-off provincial town in which he worked at the time (Grosswardein, now Oradea in Romania), or someone else's were borrowed. But in this case at least there are a few instrumental pieces contemporaneous that could very easily be fit into the day's adventure to at least closely approximate what might have been played.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 29, 2012, 08:02:14 AM

Quote from: Arnold on April 29, 2012, 03:33:12 AM
In Search of Haydn arrived in yesterday's mail and watched it last night: what a wonderful film! Most of the performances were PI, I loved seeing all those gut strings and period winds as well as the buildings where Haydn would have heard them played.

This DVD along with the Beghin set are all round two of the best purchases of 2012.

Hi Arnold - thanks for re-acquainting me w/ this series; I watched In Search of Beethoven as a Netflix rental (the other two are not available there at the moment!) - but I would be quite interested in seeing (or obtaining) In Search of Mozart and In Search of Haydn - both are available on Amazon for $26 each - a little steep but I have a $25 Amazon gift card that has been sitting next to me for more than a week; now thinking of these as 'buy one and get one free' or as 'half price' makes more sense! Dave ;D

(http://www.simonkeenlyside.info/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/In_Search_of_Mozart_large.jpg) (http://pisces.bbystatic.com/entertainment/movie/image/id/880198131195;size=m2)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 29, 2012, 08:02:38 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on April 29, 2012, 07:55:54 AM
Hi Gurn - just getting back to the forum after a short mountain vacation - :)

Thanks for the discussion on the mass - cannot really add much more to the topic regarding your points concerning incorporation of a composer's secular music into sacred compositions, but I suspect in the Baroque & Classical periods using one's music (or transcriptions or other composer's music 'altered' as needed) interchangeably was quite common; of course, we all know this fact but it does beg an answer as to 'how often' the practice was done? :D

Now as a boy when I lived in Toledo (until the age of 12 y/o - we moved to southern Michigan near the Ohio border), I attended a Catholic school (St. Anne's) and being in a church and hearing the mass in Latin (and smelling the incense) was indeed an inspiring experience for a young lad. Having visited many of the famous cathedrals in Europe over the years, I can only imagine the feelings of a person in those times going to mass, being inside those magnificent buildings, and listening to the accompanying music - INDEED, an awe inspiring spiritual experience that transported these people to another plane in their lives!

Hey, Dave. Hope you had a nice time. I've been working... :P

How often was it done? As nearly as I can determine, it was done, to some degree more or less, every day! Bearing in mind, of course, that a full symphony may have only been used at Sunday High Mass (as we used to call it), while in a daily situation, more likely an Epistle Sonata, an Organ Concerto and/or a suitable motet (with lyrics that highlighted the saint whose Feast Day it was) were most likely used. But I haven't read anything that leads me to belive that very mass was like this to some degree! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 29, 2012, 08:14:32 AM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 29, 2012, 08:00:51 AM
Much impressed, even bowled over, by the research and information on the mass. Having no direct experience with the Catholic service I would not have known exactly what was supposed to have been sequenced where; I just knew, vaguely, that there was a sequence, and on High Holy days and various other solemn occasions, it was L-O-N-G. (On the other hand, allegedly the telescoping of texts in the Missa Brevis was designed specifically to keep things SHORT on Low Mass days; one explanation for the telescoping says it was supposed to get people out of cold unheated churches more quickly in winter. Apocryphal? Probably.)

In common with Leo K. (but in my case for no known reason related to actual belief) I have a 'thing' for the liturgical music of this era, going back to the man who appears to be Leo's great love, J.A. Hasse. But more than anyone else, it's the brothers Haydn of course. And in that regard I went poking around my books and recordings and discovered that, with Michael Haydn at least, it is possible to in effect recreate the musical components of one such solemn mass in all its (choral at least) parts. It's this disc:

[asin]B00003GA98[/asin]

which looks maybe to be out of print in the US but is still readily had in the UK and Germany, if that helps anyone. Too bad this picture doesn't show you the back paper, because this is what they've done:

Principally it is the Missa Sancta Theresiae, MH 796. (The disc calls it 797; it's a technical point. 796 is the Mass as originally written; 797 is a replacement version of one section only, which is used here. Call it either number, I'd say.) Then they insert the Gradual MH 798, the Offertory MH 799 and end with the Te Deum MH 800, all of which were written within a couple of weeks and are clearly intended as a "set." (Why, you even get the original version of that replaced part of the original mass, because Haydn re-used the old version as the end of the Te Deum.) All together then, they give you a sense of the vocal portion of the day's events, and if you wanted to slip in someone's little Sinfonia (probably not Michael's, as at the time of writing this mass he hadn't written a symphony in 14 years) or an appropriate concerto, fine, that's what programming menus on CD changers are made for.

You can also do it with another "set," MH 826 (Missa Sancti Francisci Seraphici) with its attachments, MH 827 the Offertory, MH 828 the Gradual, and MH 829 the Te Deum - only in this case unfortunately you have to buy four different CDs, as no two parts have ever appeared on the same disc.

And then at the other end of his career there's the limited possibility of this CD:

[asin]B00008GQAJ[/asin]

Two very early masses and the Te Deum intended for the second of them; but there are no other things from these earliest days to fit in, so either they weren't used in the churches of the far-off provincial town in which he worked at the time (Grosswardein, now Oradea in Romania), or someone else's were borrowed. But in this case at least there are a few instrumental pieces contemporaneous that could very easily be fit into the day's adventure to at least closely approximate what might have been played.

That's excellent info, Conrad. It is exactly what I had in mind when I started down this road. Different Haydn, of course, but a very capable one. Salzburg was famous for his masses, along with Mozart's, so there is so much to choose from. If I might make a suggestion for your particular interests, and exactly what I am planning to do myself. I would say that the 1st 'Missa Celensis' (in C major), which was completed and performed in 1773, and the Symphony #52 in c minor from 1771, which is possibly Haydn's most 'Fire & Brimstone' Church Symphony (also, possibly, his last one) would be a perfect match for each other. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 29, 2012, 04:39:55 PM

52 - yes, I like it. Very different in mood from the Mass but certainly underlines the complex theological elements that keep butting into each other throughout the Mass ordinary.

Another thought if what you want is blazing trumpets to go with the ones that are already there for the Mass, might be 56. 50 I don't think works nearly as well, but isn't it pretty well agreed that 50 is theatre music to begin with?

And one more idea that I had, which goes with the original start date of the Mass - 30. I do so love that little thing, I really do, and in this case I believe we could make a case for the minuet fitting in also - not as a dance of course, but simply as a 3/4 time interlude, horns and oboes giving one of those beery sonorities that Haydn popped in every so often. (The best of which is the trio of the minuet in 80, but that's too late for this Mass.)

A lot of other ideas are probably very much worth considering. I'm sure I'll think of a couple more the second after I click 'post.'

And now (change of subject) - I'm probably going to sign off for three weeks while I go have a vacation - if I have time tomorrow (Monday) I'll check in, but after that it's up in the air and way far away....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 29, 2012, 04:50:26 PM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 29, 2012, 04:39:55 PM
52 - yes, I like it. Very different in mood from the Mass but certainly underlines the complex theological elements that keep butting into each other throughout the Mass ordinary.

Another thought if what you want is blazing trumpets to go with the ones that are already there for the Mass, might be 56. 50 I don't think works nearly as well, but isn't it pretty well agreed that 50 is theatre music to begin with?

And one more idea that I had, which goes with the original start date of the Mass - 30. I do so love that little thing, I really do, and in this case I believe we could make a case for the minuet fitting in also - not as a dance of course, but simply as a 3/4 time interlude, horns and oboes giving one of those beery sonorities that Haydn popped in every so often. (The best of which is the trio of the minuet in 80, but that's too late for this Mass.)

A lot of other ideas are probably very much worth considering. I'm sure I'll think of a couple more the second after I click 'post.'

And now (change of subject) - I'm probably going to sign off for three weeks while I go have a vacation - if I have time tomorrow (Monday) I'll check in, but after that it's up in the air and way far away....

Yes, it's the blazing trumpets that I want for sure. Outside of the symphonies though, I can't think of any music that leaps to mind to be suitable for just fanfares and little preludes and postludes. That, and some solo organ music too. Of course there is some, but I was thinking about staying with this composer throughout, which is more challenging. I bet that there is some Werner (ideally) or Hasse (nearly as good) out there is I look round enough. Hmmm....

Well, 3 weeks is a long time. Have fun on your vacation, get in some good relaxation and of course, some discreet girl-watching ( 0:) ) . See you down the road. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSolomons42-45-46-47-51-65newcover.jpg)
L'Estro Armonico \ Derek Solomons - Hob 01_046 Symphony in B 2nd mvmt - Poco adagio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on April 30, 2012, 11:48:15 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on April 29, 2012, 04:50:26 PM
Yes, it's the blazing trumpets that I want for sure. Outside of the symphonies though, I can't think of any music that leaps to mind to be suitable for just fanfares and little preludes and postludes. That, and some solo organ music too. Of course there is some, but I was thinking about staying with this composer throughout, which is more challenging. I bet that there is some Werner (ideally) or Hasse (nearly as good) out there is I look round enough. Hmmm....

Well, 3 weeks is a long time. Have fun on your vacation, get in some good relaxation and of course, some discreet girl-watching ( 0:) ) . See you down the road. :)

Only Werner I've ever come across was two little partitas on a disc with some Haydn things, the Te Deum and something else cond. Karl Richter I think, on an ancient LP (partitas were for organ and strings) - and a Requiem which is rather stiff to say the least. (The Requiem CD is filled out by another setting, by Emperor Leopold I, 1640-1705, which is really quite fine and fascinating. A real, genuine, talented Royal. Apart from Louis Ferdinand in Beethoven's day I can't think of another Royal who was really a serious contender in the music world.) Even if we could get the Partita disc today, memory tells me we wouldn't much want it.

I think my idea about Sym. 30 won't work, not without some tweaking. I forgot about the flute.....

Hasse abounds on my shelves, but every single note is vocal music. I think I need to invest in some instrumental things. Ideas, Leo K. (or anyone)?

And so I will depart now, and watch the Mädchens, and report back on my adventures when next we meet. Methinks you'll enjoy some of the reports of my travels, but they're secret for now (just in case they turn out to be NOT interesting, I won't have committed myself).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on April 30, 2012, 12:24:08 PM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on April 30, 2012, 11:48:15 AM

Hasse abounds on my shelves, but every single note is vocal music. I think I need to invest in some instrumental things. Ideas, Leo K. (or anyone)?

Uncle Connie,

Although I prefer Hasse's vocal music, his flute concerti are jewels of the Galant age. I'm thinking of this recording, with Laurence Dean and the Hannoversche Hofkapelle:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51QgD1XQ9NL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

Have a wonderful vacation man!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on May 01, 2012, 09:51:00 AM

Leo K : Thanks, it is ordered. I look forward to ripping it open and rushing to the player on my return.

Vacation report on return - yes it'll be relevant. Three hours to 'plane, bye now.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on May 01, 2012, 09:56:03 AM

Oh, and - while poking around for the other Hasse, I saw this and got it too.

[asin]B000AAIWI2[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 03, 2012, 11:44:03 AM

Been looking for some solo organ works by Hasse. I know he wrote some, but recordings are thin on the ground. He and Wagenseil were role models for the young Haydn, not to mention Reutter. You can tell what a forgiving sort Haydn was by the fact that he didn't mind the abuse as long as he got the training. Bless his heart. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on May 03, 2012, 11:48:42 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 03, 2012, 11:44:03 AM
Been looking for some solo organ works by Hasse. I know he wrote some, but recordings are thin on the ground. He and Wagenseil were role models for the young Haydn, not to mention Reutter. You can tell what a forgiving sort Haydn was by the fact that he didn't mind the abuse as long as he got the training. Bless his heart. :)

8)

I found this one on Spotify:

[asin]B000027BI0[/asin]

But you're right, not much out there.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 03, 2012, 12:05:25 PM

Quote from: Arnold on May 03, 2012, 11:48:42 AM
I found this one on Spotify:

[asin]B000027BI0[/asin]

But you're right, not much out there.

:)

Yes, I ran across that one too. I am hoping to find something like preludes (& fugues), but that just might not happen. Still, a concerto for a smaller mass could be very apt, although I have all of Haydn's several times over. Always nice to have options though. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on May 03, 2012, 12:16:21 PM

These are "concertos" for solo organ; not the normal idea of a concerto, and as far as I can tell, all he wrote for organ.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 03, 2012, 12:22:52 PM

Quote from: Arnold on May 03, 2012, 12:16:21 PM
These are "concertos" for solo organ; not the normal idea of a concerto . . . .

Of course, there is a precedent in (at the very least) the BWV 971.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 03, 2012, 12:27:24 PM

Quote from: Arnold on May 03, 2012, 12:16:21 PM
These are "concertos" for solo organ; not the normal idea of a concerto, and as far as I can tell, all he wrote for organ.

Ah, that was less than obvious from the description I read. I'll have to give that a more careful looksee. Thanks for that!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on May 03, 2012, 04:54:19 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 03, 2012, 12:27:24 PM
Ah, that was less than obvious from the description I read. I'll have to give that a more careful looksee. Thanks for that!

8)

If your purpose is what I think it is, a concerto for solo organ might be entirely appropriate, and possibly more frequently done than a normal concerto.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 03, 2012, 06:02:40 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 03, 2012, 04:54:19 PM
If your purpose is what I think it is, a concerto for solo organ might be entirely appropriate, and possibly more frequently done than a normal concerto.

Yes, I've been considering it since Arnold first posted and I have come to the same conclusion. I downloaded one of the ones in F major, which doesn't make me happy from a key standpoint, but the set is 2 in F, 2 in G and 2 in D. Bb would have been killer from my POV.... :) Still, no complaints, I think we're on the right track. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 03, 2012, 06:32:23 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 03, 2012, 12:05:25 PM
Yes, I ran across that one too. I am hoping to find something like preludes (& fugues), but that just might not happen...

I have been doing some research and although it's not totally what I was searching for, I think this disc could be useful, Gurn:

[asin]B000005ANC[/asin]

... well, actually my only true quibble about this recording it's the instrument, not an original one, but a modern Italian Tamburini organ from 1976 (a sort of Neo-Baroque organ).

I also thought that Michael Haydn's "50 Little Organ Pieces" could be a good option, but are scarcely recorded (some of them are included in the aforementioned disc). I have two or three additional recommendation I will post later.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 03, 2012, 06:37:17 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 03, 2012, 06:32:23 PM
I have been doing some research and although it's not totally what I was searching for, I think this disc could be useful, Gurn:

[asin]B000005ANC[/asin]

... well, actually my only true quibble about this recording it's the instrument, not an original one, but a modern Italian Tamburini organ from 1976 (a sort of Neo-Baroque organ).

I also thought that Michael Haydn's "50 Little Organ Pieces" could be a good option, but are extremely scarcely recorded. I have two or three additional recommendation I will post later.

Ooh, Albrechtsberger! Very nice! This could play a nice role.

I am working in Eb, FYI. So that and its relatives are something for the back of the mind. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 05, 2012, 07:38:46 PM

In Search of Haydn (running about 100+ minutes) - this is an excellent introduction to Papa Haydn w/ a mixture of history, comments by musical historians, and discussions by important performers (Ax, Brautigam, and others) - this is a video that should be watched by Haydn fans - not sure worth a purchase (i.e. I'd prefer 4-6 volumes myself - HA!) - SO, for us devoted Haydn fans, this video should at least be rented if possible; it is a beautiful production, but will I watch it again? Not sure - just my thoughts @ the moment - Dave :)

(http://cinema.usc.edu/userfiles/A0127948311B99D1C02CF7783648D35EBD92E9B2images/ISOH_poster_120130.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 06, 2012, 06:50:45 AM

Mileage will vary, inevitably : )

I've already watched it at least three times....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 06, 2012, 07:38:28 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on May 06, 2012, 06:50:45 AM
Mileage will vary, inevitably : )

I've already watched it at least three times....

Me too. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
Berliner Philharmoniker \ Claudio Abbado - Op 125 Symphony #9 in d 3rd mvmt - Adagio molto e cantabile - Andante moderato

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on May 06, 2012, 07:52:23 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 05, 2012, 07:38:46 PM
In Search of Haydn (running about 100+ minutes) - this is an excellent introduction to Papa Haydn w/ a mixture of history, comments by musical historians, and discussions by important performers (Ax, Brautigam, and others) - this is a video that should be watched by Haydn fans - not sure worth a purchase (i.e. I'd prefer 4-6 volumes myself - HA!) - SO, for us devoted Haydn fans, this video should at least be rented if possible; it is a beautiful production, but will I watch it again? Not sure - just my thoughts @ the moment - Dave :)

(http://cinema.usc.edu/userfiles/A0127948311B99D1C02CF7783648D35EBD92E9B2images/ISOH_poster_120130.jpg)

I am of the opinion that this film is of such high enough quality to be a must-have for any Haydn fan. I have watched the main film once but plan on going back and watching the extra items, and will probably watch the main film again from time to time.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 09, 2012, 11:52:12 AM

I'm curious how different people listen to music. I mean, not whether it's with my ears, or while reading a book or the Forum. Rather, do you just grab a disk and throw it on and listen from end to end? Or do you do it thematically, like "all the songs are about rainbows", so to speak. Or is there some other key that you use to gain the most from your listening experience? Or do you care about that? Something else altogether?

If you feel like sharing, please do. Some of you already know that I have some thoughts on the matter, but I want to know what yours are. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 09, 2012, 11:56:44 AM

I listen in a variety of ways. Sometimes, it's just listening to a disc straight through. Sometimes, I have some momentary interest and pursue that (such as my Sibelius and Nielsen mélange, earlier to-day).

Sometimes, it's just Haydn all the time . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on May 09, 2012, 11:58:03 AM

I tend to listen to the whole box of string quartets if I start one ...

And the same for the 'London' symphonies.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 09, 2012, 11:59:18 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on May 09, 2012, 11:56:44 AM
I listen in a variety of ways. Sometimes, it's just listening to a disc straight through. Sometimes, I have some momentary interest and pursue that (such as my Sibelius and Nielsen mélange, earlier to-day).

Sometimes, it's just Haydn all the time . . . .

Yes, but other than choice of composer, is there a rhyme or reason to your choices? Or is it whimsy? Not denigrating whimsy, being whimsical myself at times, just curious to what extent it compels listeners. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 09, 2012, 12:01:27 PM

Quote from: Scion7 on May 09, 2012, 11:58:03 AM
I tend to listen to the whole box of string quartets if I start one ...

And the same for the 'London' symphonies.

Ah! That's what I expect to hear more than not. Curious though; if you had the intention of listening to the entire from the beginning, would you listen to them chronologically, or would it be more randomly than that (say, Op 76, followed by 33, 64 etc)?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on May 09, 2012, 12:15:40 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 09, 2012, 11:52:12 AM
I'm curious how different people listen to music. I mean, not whether it's with my ears, or while reading a book or the Forum. Rather, do you just grab a disk and throw it on and listen from end to end? Or do you do it thematically, like "all the songs are about rainbows", so to speak. Or is there some other key that you use to gain the most from your listening experience? Or do you care about that? Something else altogether?

If you feel like sharing, please do. Some of you already know that I have some thoughts on the matter, but I want to know what yours are. :)

8)

I rarely listen to an entire disc, but usually am wanting to hear a specific work on the disc. And more often than not, I'll grab a few recordings of the same work and listen to a part of them all or a few in a row. But that's when I'm engaged in focused listening.

Many times I just want some thing playing of a certain period or genre, which is why I have created so many playlists of "piano trios", or "string quartets"; "French chamber music", or my favorite, "Haydn, Mozart & Beethoven"; or an artist/ensemble, "Beaux Arts Quartet" or "Kuijken" and then put it on random play and enjoy the various works and movements butting up against each other.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 09, 2012, 12:19:21 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 09, 2012, 11:59:18 AM
Yes, but other than choice of composer, is there a rhyme or reason to your choices? Or is it whimsy? Not denigrating whimsy, being whimsical myself at times, just curious to what extent it compels listeners. :)

8)

Sometimes, whimsy. Sometimes genre, or a specific piece, or indeed rainbows or some other parallel theme. Or form: themes-&-variations, e.g.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on May 09, 2012, 02:43:25 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 09, 2012, 11:52:12 AM
I'm curious how different people listen to music. I mean, not whether it's with my ears, or while reading a book or the Forum. Rather, do you just grab a disk and throw it on and listen from end to end? Or do you do it thematically, like "all the songs are about rainbows", so to speak. Or is there some other key that you use to gain the most from your listening experience? Or do you care about that? Something else altogether?

A composer, (songwriter, band,) work, genre will suggest itself to me, and I'll accept it or reject and wait for more suggestions. When I've found what I feel like hearing, I'll play whole discs in that vein. I also put together my own anthologies on one theme or another, so they're in the mix as well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 09, 2012, 03:12:19 PM

Quote from: chasmaniac on May 09, 2012, 02:43:25 PM
A composer, (songwriter, band,) work, genre will suggest itself to me, and I'll accept it or reject and wait for more suggestions. When I've found what I feel like hearing, I'll play whole discs in that vein. I also put together my own anthologies on one theme or another, so they're in the mix as well.

I like that thematic anthology idea. It tkes a little effort, but I should imagine it is time well invested. :)

Quote from: Arnold on May 09, 2012, 12:15:40 PM
I rarely listen to an entire disc, but usually am wanting to hear a specific work on the disc. And more often than not, I'll grab a few recordings of the same work and listen to a part of them all or a few in a row. But that's when I'm engaged in focused listening.

Many times I just want some thing playing of a certain period or genre, which is why I have created so many playlists of "piano trios", or "string quartets"; "French chamber music", or my favorite, "Haydn, Mozart & Beethoven"; or an artist/ensemble, "Beaux Arts Quartet" or "Kuijken" and then put it on random play and enjoy the various works and movements butting up against each other.

:)

I do that too, in fact for many years it was my main method. The second one, I mean. Although I also do the first occasionally. I am horrible at comparative listening though, so it doesn't jump right out at me now. :-\

Quote from: karlhenning on May 09, 2012, 12:19:21 PM
Sometimes, whimsy. Sometimes genre, or a specific piece, or indeed rainbows or some other parallel theme. Or form: themes-&-variations, e.g.

On any given evening... ;)

Well, here is one thing that I really enjoy doing. It can be very difficult to arrange, but for me, perverse bastard that I am, that's part of the appeal.

I started this a while back. Before I was a Haydn specialist, I gave the same treatment to first, Mozart, then Beethoven. All the books, all the music. I have to admit, they were a lot easier! Anyway, while reading I would frequently read concert programmes in the text, and think 'I sure would have liked to be there!'. So the idea of recreating actual historic concerts came to me. Here's my first;

#1 April 2, 1800 - Beethoven Benefit Academy (Concert)

Mozart - K 543 Symphony #39 in Eb

Hob 21_2 Oratorio 'Die Schöpfung' pt 08 - Aria (Gabriel) - "Non beut die Flur das frische Gruen"

Beethoven Op 15 Concerto #1 in C for Piano & Orchestra

Beethoven Op 20 Septet in Eb for Strings & Winds

Haydn Hob 21_2 Oratorio Die Schöpfung pt 32 - Duet (Adam & Eve) - "Holde Gattin, dir zur Seite"

Beethoven WoO 73 Variations (10) in Bb on 'La Stessa, le Stessissima' from "Falstaff" by Salieri

Beethoven WoO 76 Variations ( 8 ) in F on 'Tändeln und Scherzen" from "Suliman II" by Süssmayr

Beethoven Op 21 Symphony #1 in C

This was/still is a great concert! I did 8 of these, right up through the premiere of the 9th. Anyway, that's an idea from me for starters. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on May 11, 2012, 02:58:21 AM

Plucked from the budget box this morning, these really hit the spot. Tafelmusik playing Haydn Symphonies 50, 64, 65.

[asin]B000002971[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on May 11, 2012, 04:40:04 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on May 11, 2012, 02:58:21 AM
Plucked from the budget box this morning, these really hit the spot. Tafelmusik playing Haydn Symphonies 50, 64, 65.

[asin]B000002971[/asin]

I really like Weil's Haydn - I have the larger box set of 7 discs.

[asin]B001U0HB60[/asin]

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 11, 2012, 04:42:17 AM

Ultimately, I believe both those boxes have the same contents, do they not?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on May 11, 2012, 04:45:19 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 11, 2012, 04:42:17 AM
Ultimately, I believe both those boxes have the same contents, do they not?

8)

I thought he posted just the one disc of Syms. 50, 64 & 65 - not the entire box.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on May 11, 2012, 05:04:35 AM

Quote from: Arnold on May 11, 2012, 04:45:19 AM
I thought he posted just the one disc of Syms. 50, 64 & 65 - not the entire box.

:)

That was to illustrate the disc I listened to this morning. The 2 boxes are the same.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 11, 2012, 05:04:37 AM

Quote from: Arnold on May 11, 2012, 04:45:19 AM
I thought he posted just the one disc of Syms. 50, 64 & 65 - not the entire box.

:)

That's funny; I thought the same thing the first time I read it; then I noted the blue border and the light bulb came on. Only dimly, but that's another story. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 11, 2012, 05:11:58 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 09, 2012, 03:12:19 PM
..........'I sure would have liked to be there!'. So the idea of recreating actual historic concerts came to me. Here's my first;

#1 April 2, 1800 - Beethoven Benefit Academy (Concert)

Mozart - K 543 Symphony #39 in Eb

Hob 21_2 Oratorio 'Die Schöpfung' pt 08 - Aria (Gabriel) - "Non beut die Flur das frische Gruen"

Beethoven Op 15 Concerto #1 in C for Piano & Orchestra

Beethoven Op 20 Septet in Eb for Strings & Winds

Haydn Hob 21_2 Oratorio Die Schöpfung pt 32 - Duet (Adam & Eve) - "Holde Gattin, dir zur Seite"

Beethoven WoO 73 Variations (10) in Bb on 'La Stessa, le Stessissima' from "Falstaff" by Salieri

Beethoven WoO 76 Variations ( 8 ) in F on 'Tändeln und Scherzen" from "Suliman II" by Süssmayr

Beethoven Op 21 Symphony #1 in C

This was/still is a great concert! I did 8 of these, right up through the premiere of the 9th. Anyway, that's an idea from me for starters. :)

Hmmm, I was hoping that this would spur on some other Haydnistas to bare their souls, so to speak. I am always looking for new ideas in this realm, since devising creative ways to enjoy music is a vital part of my enjoyment, tied hand-in-hand with my history hobby. :)

Well, here is a variation that I came up with just recently. Lately I have become rather more interested in sacred music than I ever was. But it didn't take long to discover that sitting down and throwing on a disk of masses got old pretty quickly, despite that the music was beautiful. So as you mostly recall, I did that little research project a few weeks back to see what other music was in there and how they fit together. And I came up with this;

A Missa longa from <>1768:

Hasse Concerto in F for Solo Organ - Allegro
Altenburg Concerto in C for 7 Trumpets & Timpani – Allegro

Haydn: Hob XXII: 04 Mass in Eb 'Grosse Orgelsolomesse'
Kyrie:   Kyrie eleison
Gloria:    Gloria in excelsis Deo
   Gratias agimus tibi
   Quoniam tu solus sanctus
Haydn: Hob I:22 Symphony in Eb - Adagio

Hasse: Concerto in F for Solo Organ - Andante
Altenburg: Concerto in C for 7 Trumpets & Timpani - Andante

Credo:    Credo in unum Deum
      Et incarnatus est
      Et resurrexit
Hob I: 22 Symphony in Eb - Presto
Sanctus
Benedictus
Agnus Dei
Agnus Dei: Dona nobis pacem
Hob I: 22 Symphony in Eb - Finale: Presto
Altenburg: Concerto in C for 7 Trumpets & Timpani - Vivace
Hasse: Concerto in F for Solo Organ - Minuet: Allegro

Now when I listen to the Große Orgelsolomesse I get to start out with some contemporary solo organ music by a master, a great little trumpet fanfare with timpani, some of the mass, some of a symphony etc. etc. It's a treat for me!

I invite any or all of you to try something like this. Especially I would like to her whether you enjoy listening to it this way. I personally feel like Prince Esterházy when I do it! 0:)

Also, any other ideas for increasing your listening pleasure? Please share. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/309555.jpg)
The Solstice Ensemble - Hob 02_26 Notturno in F for Flute, Oboe & Small Orchestra 1st mvmt - Adagio - Allegro spiritoso

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on May 12, 2012, 12:59:11 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 11, 2012, 05:11:58 PM
Hmmm, I was hoping that this would spur on some other Haydnistas to bare their souls, so to speak.

My sets aren't very Haydn-y, or even classical, but I put together a Haydn sampler for propaganda purposes. It goes like this...

Sonata in Em for Keyboard, Hob. XVI/34
1. Presto
2. Adagio
3. Vivace molto
Ronald Brautigam

String Quartet in F, Op. 77/2
4. Allegro Moderato
5. Menuet: presto
6. Andante
7. Finale: vivace assai
Quatuor Mosaïques

Piano Trio in G, Hob. XV/25
8. Andante
9. Poco adagio, cantabile
10. Finale: rondo all'Ongarese, presto
Van Swieten Trio

Sonatina in F for Violin and Viola, Hob. VI/1
11. Allegro Moderato
12. Adagio sostenuto
13. Tempo di Nebuet
Anton Steck, Christian Goosses

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 12, 2012, 08:01:35 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on May 12, 2012, 12:59:11 AM
My sets aren't very Haydn-y, or even classical, but I put together a Haydn sampler for propaganda purposes. It goes like this...

Sonata in Em for Keyboard, Hob. XVI/34
1. Presto
2. Adagio
3. Vivace molto
Ronald Brautigam

String Quartet in F, Op. 77/2
4. Allegro Moderato
5. Menuet: presto
6. Andante
7. Finale: vivace assai
Quatuor Mosaïques

Piano Trio in G, Hob. XV/25
8. Andante
9. Poco adagio, cantabile
10. Finale: rondo all'Ongarese, presto
Van Swieten Trio

Sonatina in F for Violin and Viola, Hob. VI/1
11. Allegro Moderato
12. Adagio sostenuto
13. Tempo di Nebuet
Anton Steck, Christian Goosses

That's an excellent evening's listening. And as you say, not restricted to any particular composer. A variation that I have used many times is a simulated salon in Vienna from around 1783 or so:

Hob 26a_03 Lied for Soprano and Fortepiano "Der erste Kuss"

Hob 16_40 Sonata #54 in G for Fortepiano

Hob 26a_05 Lied for Soprano and Fortepiano "Die Verlassene"

Hob 03_39 Op 33 #3 Quartet in C

Hob 26a_04 Lied for Soprano and Fortepiano "Eine sehr gewöhnliche Geschichte"

Hob 03_41 Op 33 #5 Quartet in G

Hob 16_41 Sonata #55 in Bb for Fortepiano

Another pleasant evening. This sort of thing works outstandingly well with Schubert, as you can imagine. Recreating a Schubertiade of any given year can provide great pleasure, limited only by your imagination. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on May 12, 2012, 09:35:27 AM

I very much like vocal numbers interspersed with instrumental. That extra variational dimension widens the set's dynamic - denser, looser; higher, lower; rougher, smoother and so on. The mixture is everything.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 12, 2012, 09:42:42 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on May 12, 2012, 09:35:27 AM
I very much like vocal numbers interspersed with instrumental. That extra variational dimension widens the set's dynamic - denser, looser; higher, lower; rougher, smoother and so on. The mixture is everything.

Yes, and very realistic too, since there was no such thing in those days as a concert or recital of solely instrumental music. So just as you say, it varies the density nicely. Nice thing about Haydn (or Schubert), you can take many different phases of his career and make a great little recital of 'latest hits', which was a big deal for the Viennese. "Oh my, that's so last year ::) " :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on May 12, 2012, 10:23:45 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 11, 2012, 05:11:58 PM
Hmmm, I was hoping that this would spur on some other Haydnistas to bare their souls, so to speak. I am always looking for new ideas in this realm, since devising creative ways to enjoy music is a vital part of my enjoyment, tied hand-in-hand with my history hobby. :)

I have been thinking of this question, and realizing how difficult it is to write down my subjective processes in choosing music day to day! On the outside it seems so plain, "I'll listen to this then, it suits my fancy just now, " etc., but it's a complex process.

Some things that are easy to note are:

I never listen to half of a work, i.e., a symphony, piano sonata, etc. Perhaps I will listen to the first act or two of an opera, but usually I prefer to hear the complete work as a whole. I really can't stand excerpts if I can help it. Sometimes it is unavoidable. A lot of my listening occurs at my workplaces, so obviously, I will be interupted time to time.

I usually enjoy focus on an era, or style, or genre of music. One day it will be operas of the early 18th century, the next day, keyboard literature of the first half of the 19th century, etc. I'm also led by connections. I may jump around but somehow, each musical work somehow fits an overall theme, regardless of the difference of composer, era or genre. It can be magical. A listening session is sometimes like an episode of the television series called "Connections" by science historian James Burke, which rejected a linear view of historical progress. It is all rather fun!

Starting from two years ago, I've been branching out, uncovering the blind spots in my knowledge and collection, and seeing where it takes me. The music of JS Bach (and his sons), Johann Hasse, Bruckner, Chopin, Liszt, Mendelssohn, Richard Strauss, and unknown or not-known contemporaries of the greats (within the 18th and 19 centuries) are some examples.

Particular fascinations during the last year is the development of the mass, piano sonata and the symphony. Also, the period of late-romanticism is of particular interest right now, particularly those of the Brahms-Bruckner mold who are mostly forgotten today.

This is also a time of rediscovering recordings, or composers, the biggest being Mozart and Tschaikovsky, that I got burnt-out on years ago, but am now finding something new I haven't heard before, and a new appreciation is happening.

It goes without saying that this board has been endlessly helpful in suggesting avenues of exploration, and now a big influence on my listening sessions.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 12, 2012, 05:03:41 PM

That's very interesting, Leo. I have read it a few times now and come to the realization that in many ways, I do entirely the opposite from you, although I suspect our net result (and motivations) are the same. It goes without saying that there is no opposition about listening to parts and excerpts though!

It was no accident that I arranged all my digital music chronologically. This was so that I could choose a particular year or group of years and play contemporaneous music with a blend of genres that spanned whatever creative spectrum that composer indulged at the time.

I don't suppose that I need to say that I focus on an era though, do I? :D

I like the 'connections' concept though. One doesn't see it much here, but on boards that specialize in one composer, a very large percentage of the members seem to believe that their boy was sui generis and had no antecedents who influenced him or taught him anything at all. Which is ludicrous, of course. If one were to trace the actual influences from just 1750 to 1850 for example, he would be stunned by the inbreeding inherent in the training process of composers! So 'connections' is a cool idea. I was going to do an essay on that at one time, but I might just play around with my playlists first and see what's what. :)

It's a funny thing how the board influences one's viewpoints. Many times I read something and try to see how it might fit in with my own knowledge. Often it doesn't, or the slant of it is unacceptable, but somewhere down the road I find a way to let it expand my horizons anyway. So yes, it is nice to see so many viewpoints up for debate. Guess that's why I've stuck around here for such a long time. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnvanSwietencover.jpg)
Van Swieten Trio - Hob 15_10 Trio in Eb for Keyboard & Strings 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on May 13, 2012, 10:32:43 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 12, 2012, 05:03:41 PM
That's very interesting, Leo. I have read it a few times now and come to the realization that in many ways, I do entirely the opposite from you, although I suspect our net result (and motivations) are the same. It goes without saying that there is no opposition about listening to parts and excerpts though!

It was no accident that I arranged all my digital music chronologically. This was so that I could choose a particular year or group of years and play contemporaneous music with a blend of genres that spanned whatever creative spectrum that composer indulged at the time.

I don't suppose that I need to say that I focus on an era though, do I? :D

I like the 'connections' concept though. One doesn't see it much here, but on boards that specialize in one composer, a very large percentage of the members seem to believe that their boy was sui generis and had no antecedents who influenced him or taught him anything at all. Which is ludicrous, of course. If one were to trace the actual influences from just 1750 to 1850 for example, he would be stunned by the inbreeding inherent in the training process of composers! So 'connections' is a cool idea. I was going to do an essay on that at one time, but I might just play around with my playlists first and see what's what. :)

It's a funny thing how the board influences one's viewpoints. Many times I read something and try to see how it might fit in with my own knowledge. Often it doesn't, or the slant of it is unacceptable, but somewhere down the road I find a way to let it expand my horizons anyway. So yes, it is nice to see so many viewpoints up for debate. Guess that's why I've stuck around here for such a long time. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnvanSwietencover.jpg)
Van Swieten Trio - Hob 15_10 Trio in Eb for Keyboard & Strings 1st mvmt - Allegro moderato

Thanks for your thoughts Gurn!

I think the essence of my listening habits is era/history based rather than composer based. I definitely continue to be obsessed with Mozart, Haydn, Alban Berg, and of course Mahler to name a few! But essentially, my listening habits are changing into the history direction mentioned above. My overall favorite era is the 18th century, but these meaningful connections that bridge each era is so fascinating, endlessly fascinating, and keep me listening to other eras with the same passion.

I'm very interested in the inbreeding in western art music. That's why I'm fascinated by composers working in the "Brahms mold". I love how a tradition takes hold and inspires more of the same sounds, same tradition. Originality is not as interesting or important to me as identifying or enjoying the consistency that exists in an era.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 13, 2012, 12:50:39 PM

Three Trios for Traverso, Cello & Fortepiano by Joseph Haydn

Hob 15:15 in G
Allegro
Andante
Allegro moderato

Hob 15:16 in D
Allegro
Andantino pìu tosto allegretto
Vivace assai

Hob 15:17 in F
Allegro
Finale: Tempo di Menuetto

Standing out among Haydn's "Piano Trios", for reasons other than choice of keyboard, are these three gems. All Haydnistas know the (probably exaggerated) tale of the Razor Quartet, wherein London music publisher John Bland visited Haydn in Vienna in November, 1789, and happened upon him one morning as he was shaving. The upshot being that he traded a pair of fine English razors to Haydn for the manuscript of a fine new quartet, alleged to be Op 55 #2, still called "The Razor Quartet", but which was really one of the Op 64 set, freshly written and published by Bland shortly thereafter.

But Bland didn't go to visit Haydn in order to give him some razors, he went with the twofold purpose of convincing him to come to London to play with Salomon. And that happened 14 months later, after the Prince died. And secondly, he came to commission some music. One of the things he asked for was a set of three keyboard trios. Likely he offered a good price, because Haydn had 2 of them completed by the following March, and the third shortly after, so Bland was able to publish by June, 1790. They were an instant hit with London's musical amateurs since they weren't overly technically demanding, yet they were distinctly Haydnish.

The first two are clearly twins. They are written in G & D, which are the two best keys for the transverse flute (like D with the violin). They share a great many features beyond the three movement layout. Both have a fast opening movement in sonata form, an A-B-A second movement and a lively rondo-like finale. Both are typically late-Haydn with amusing thematic development and many, sometimes surprising, modulations. Another feature, and an important one, is that Haydn has given the flute a lot more to do than to double the right hand of the keyboardist. Much of the time the flute presents the thematic material and the keyboard follows suit. Ultimately, these works are galant, which they must be for their purpose, but they are not old-fashioned in any way, they are cutting edge, the new galant if you will. :) The third trio, in F, is a two movement form and really is a more conservative sort of work than the first two which are very forward looking. #3 is also the only one that is marked "For Flute or Violin". It is very entertaining to listen to, but lacks some of the modern features which make the first two such standouts.

As I dug through my music library, I was surprised by how many PI versions I have. I was easily able to put my hands on 6, although I hope I'm not overlooking any. The problem comes in when I sit and listen to them and they are all really good! I hate when that happens. ::)

Well, here are the six I have.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnLaGaiaFluteTrioscover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnvanSwietencover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnCamerataKlnTrioscover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnFluteTriosLindeetalcover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnGamerithFlutecover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHakkilaKartunenFlutecover.jpg)

The version I chose during my survey for the essay of 1790 was La Gaia Scienza. The playing is superb (as in all of these), but ultimately the sound quality seemed the best on my equipment. That, and the fact that there is a nice coupling here with the Piano/Flute Quartet version of the Symphony #94 both fell on the plus side. On the minus side, the liner notes were relatively uninformative, spending their time dwelling on Haydn's business practices a lot and mentioning the music only a little. And the title, "Haydn in London"; well, Haydn wasn't in London for these, but the music was, I guess... :-\

Camerata Köln were my choice before I got the La Gaia disk, and really they still easily could be. That CPO disk contains an excellent coupling with the 'London Trios' for 2 flutes and cello, Hob 04:1 – 4. Also, they have the most informative liner notes booklet of the group. Again, the playing is excellent and it is hard to find a minus to put on this disk. The Hob 04 pieces are my choice for those anyway, so it is a multi-winning disk to have.

The Finnish group of Hakkila, Helasvuo and Kartunen rock quite nicely in this music. Hakkila & Kartunen are represented in my collection by a superb rendering of Beethoven's Cello Sonatas. They are equally interesting in Haydn, falling in easily with the new galant conception of the works. In the release that I have, liner notes are Scandinavian-ishly minimalist, and there are no other works on the disk. I present that only for those to whom it is a deciding factor; the playing outweighs the frills. :)

Now, a classic version. Hans Martin-Linde, a pioneering traverso player, along with Rolf Junghanns and Michael Jappe. This disk on German Indie FSM/Adagio is all around good. Did I mention earlier that the playing on all of these disks is about equal? Just sayin'. Linde really plays the heck out of the flute, no doubt about it. I don't know how long he has been around, but by 1989 when this disk was recorded, he hadn't waned in intensity in any appreciable way. As with the Finnish disk, liner notes are minimal and there is no other music coupled in. One downside is that FSM can be a hard label to find. I have 3 or 4 of their disks, all excellent, but only found them in a random sort of way. Possibly there is someplace that one can just scoop them up by the handful...

The Gamerith Consort was apparently engaged by Musical Heritage Society to record the complete keyboard trios of Haydn. Not being a member, I haven't any further knowledge of that, but if the remainder are as nicely done as this eBay winning that I got last year, then I need to hunt the set. Of the three players here, Maria Rose on fortepiano is the only one that I am already familiar with. I have her playing Hummel's Pianoforte Sonatas, which is among my favorite disks of his works. Linde Brunmayr was a pupil of Hans Martin-Linde. She went on to become Professor of Traverso at the Institute of Early Music in Germany. Mordej on cello, sadly, has little opportunity to show off his no doubt finely honed skills, since these works rely less on cello than do many other of Haydn's late chamber works. The liner notes here are succinct but informative, and there is no other music on the disk.

Finally, The Van Sweiten Trio. To be honest, it's hard top be fair to this one because I hadn't listened to it before yesterday, despite having it for over 2 years now. Of course, I didn't buy the Big Box just for the Flute Trios... :) But I did rectify that situation last night, and am pleased to report that, just like the rest of that cycle, the flute works are first rate. Oort seems to scarcely ever put a foot wrong in Haydn, whether it's solo sonatas, dances or trios. And so it is here. I can't comment on the liner notes since the Big Box is sadly bereft and I would hate to say that the Trios Box is also without when possibly it has a great huge book even with scores and everything. Although I rather doubt it. Anyway, if you are relying on your Brilliant version for these, fear not, there is little you are missing musically.

There works are Haydn's best works for flute. He hit everything right, and got the most out of what was a very popular instrument in England at the time. And in Germany and France too, although not so much in Austria. The are without a doubt among his best examples of "social music", which is to say, not for public performance but for the private salon. As such, they had to be a combination of musically interesting,
charming, modernly intriguing and yet playable by (usually) competent but amateur musicians. It is a hard combination to hit just right, but in this case, he did it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 13, 2012, 02:59:03 PM

Thanks, Gurn, that was very informative. For some reason, probably influenced by the Beaux Arts set, I thought that all of these flute trios were alternatively marked as piano trios with violin. But apparently I was wrong.

Do you have this version, Gurn?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41E8SB0T8BL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 13, 2012, 03:09:21 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 13, 2012, 02:59:03 PM
Thanks, Gurn, that was very informative. For some reason, probably influenced by the Beaux Arts set, I thought that all of these flute trios were alternatively marked as piano trios. But apparently I was wrong.

Do you have this version, Gurn?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41E8SB0T8BL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Antoine,
Unless I'm mistaken, the BAT are the only existing recordings played on violin instead of flute. But no, 15 & 16 are definitely marked just 'For Flute' on the original Bland edition. Artaria published them also, latrer the same year, and it is possible (I simply don't know) that they marked all 3 as 'For Flute or Violin'.

No, I would love to have that disk, but I shopped for it rather late after it went OOP, and single used copies were approaching $100 each, so I gave it a miss. I keep my eyes open though, and if it comes reasonable, it shall be mine. How is it relative to any of the ones I reviewed?

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardBilson4952cover.jpg)
Malcolm Bilson (Fortepiano - 1785 Walter copy) - Hob 16_52 Sonata in Eb for Keyboard 2nd mvmt - Adagio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 13, 2012, 03:25:49 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 13, 2012, 03:09:21 PM
Antoine,
Unless I'm mistaken, the BAT are the only existing recordings played on violin instead of flute. But no, 15 & 16 are definitely marked just 'For Flute' on the original Bland edition. Artaria published them also, latrer the same year, and it is possible (I simply don't know) that they marked all 3 as 'For Flute or Violin'.

No, I would love to have that disk, but I shopped for it rather late after it went OOP, and single used copies were approaching $100 each, so I gave it a miss. I keep my eyes open though, and if it comes reasonable, it shall be mine. How is it relative to any of the ones I reviewed?

I see, it's great to know.

Regarding Cohen/Hünteler/Coin, they are very good, but IMO not a critical acquisition considering that you have some superb versions. Anyway, I don't have the Musical Heritage Society disc which looks quite enticing...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 13, 2012, 03:35:48 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 13, 2012, 03:25:49 PM
I see, it's great to know.

Regarding Cohen/Hünteler/Coin, they are very good, but IMO not a critical acquisition considering that you have some superb versions. Anyway, I don't have the Musical Heritage Society disc which looks quite enticing...

It is very good, actually. I didn't even know it existed since it wouldn't be listed at a music store, but I saw it on eBay one day and snapped it up for a few dollars. I have another disk of theirs which has a couple of Haydn trios (Hob 9 & 22) and one by Pleyel, along with a fortepiano concerto from 1779 by Karl Ditters. It is also well-played and the sound of the instruments is very... rustic? Original sounding, let us say.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnGamerithTrioscover.jpg)

They are not terribly famous, but listeners such as we are could appreciate them, I think.

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Rialcover.jpg)
L'Orfeo Baroque Orchestra \ Gaigg Nuria Rial - Hob 24b_08 Aria for Soprano "Dica pure chi vuol dire"

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 13, 2012, 03:59:11 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 13, 2012, 03:35:48 PM
It is also well-played and the sound of the instruments is very... rustic? Original sounding, let us say.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnGamerithTrioscover.jpg)

They are not terribly famous, but listeners such as we are could appreciate them, I think.

No doubt. I love some slightly rustic timbre of the instruments in chamber music. Unfortunately, the sound of many HIP ensembles seems increasingly polished these days... It's as if they were pursuing to sound as a single instrument (the symphonic ideal of the 19th & esp. 20th Century), more than several discernible voices participating in a single conversation. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 13, 2012, 04:07:59 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 13, 2012, 03:59:11 PM
No doubt. I love some slightly rustic timbre of the instruments in chamber music. Unfortunately, the sound of many HIP ensembles seems increasingly polished these days... It's as if they were pursuing to sound as a single instrument (the symphonic ideal of the 19th Century), more than several discernible voices participating in a single conversation. :)

Absolutely right. Possibly they are caving to the pressure of the critics and others who want their PI to sound like MI, so they can be more comfortable telling people how much they like PI. :D

But these guys are more like listening to John Khouri playing Hummel or Cramer; a little jangle here and there is a small price to pay for such interest. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 13, 2012, 04:16:55 PM

BTW, Gurn, I recalled another version of the trios 15-17, completely played on violin. It's the favorite set of our Sonic: the Haydn Trio Eisenstadt (on MI).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 13, 2012, 04:24:42 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 13, 2012, 04:16:55 PM
BTW, Gurn, I recalled another version of the trios 15-17, completely played on violin. It's the favorite set of our Sonic: the Haydn Trio Eisenstadt (on MI).

Oh yes? Interesting. The thing that makes it difficult is that search places that I like to use, like Arkiv, don't differentiate between flute and violin. They say (or once did), for example, that the Van Sweiten set is on violin when clearly it is on flute. So when one does a search, the results aren't a sure thing. Trio Eisenstadt, eh? I might be able to find that disk as a single... :) Thanks!

BTW, I was going to say earlier that the reason that you can be sure that all 3 were originally intended for flute is that there isn't a single note that isn't in the flute's range, while the violin has a very large range that is totally unused in these works. Tessitura, isn't it??

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKuijken88_92cover.jpg)
La Petite Bande; Kuijken - Hob 01_092 Symphony #92 in G 2nd mvmt - Adagio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 13, 2012, 04:39:16 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 13, 2012, 04:24:42 PM
BTW, I was going to say earlier that the reason that you can be sure that all 3 were originally intended for flute is that there isn't a single note that isn't in the flute's range, while the violin has a very large range that is totally unused in these works. Tessitura, isn't it??

A very persuasive/almost conclusive argument, indeed.

Just some minutes ago, I finished the sixth disc of the complete set of piano trios on Brilliant. It's a beatiful disc, as usual, with an excellent flutist like Marion Moonen, playing in these piano trios with flute.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 13, 2012, 04:46:49 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 13, 2012, 04:39:16 PM
A very persuasive/almost conclusive argument, indeed.

Just some minutes ago, I finished the sixth disc of the complete set of piano trios on Brilliant. It's a beatiful disc, as usual, with an excellent flutist like Marion Moonen, playing in these piano trios with flute.

Isn't that music just pleasant to listen to? I am particularly fond of the finale of #16, although it isn't mentioned anywhere that I've read, it has hints of the Gypsy sound that shows up on occasion in several of his other works. Not to the extent of the G major trio, of course, of Concerto #11, but just a hint in the background from time to time. I only have listened to the Van Sweiten set once, but I thought that if it was my one and only I wouldn't be unduly hungry for others. Which is a very positive thing to say, IMO. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/1790v2.jpg)
Trio 1790 - Hob 15_13 Trio in c for Piano & Strings 2nd mvmt - Allegro spirituoso

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 13, 2012, 04:59:16 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 13, 2012, 04:46:49 PM
Isn't that music just pleasant to listen to? I am particularly fond of the finale of #16, although it isn't mentioned anywhere that I've read, it has hints of the Gypsy sound that shows up on occasion in several of his other works. Not to the extent of the G major trio, of course, of Concerto #11, but just a hint in the background from time to time. I only have listened to the Van Sweiten set once, but I thought that if it was my one and only I wouldn't be unduly hungry for others. Which is a very positive thing to say, IMO. :)

Immensely pleasant... My favorite movement is the second of #16, marked "Andantino piú tosto allegretto" which is pleasant, calmed and a bit philosophical, and extremely well played in the Brilliant recording.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on May 14, 2012, 02:17:40 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 13, 2012, 04:46:49 PM
I only have listened to the Van Sweiten set once, but I thought that if it was my one and only I wouldn't be unduly hungry for others.

Took it in this morning. An oasis of sanity in the desert that is Monday to Friday.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 15, 2012, 04:20:01 PM

Purchased today:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardTriosHantai.jpg)

For whatever reason, I have looked at this disk 100 times and never thought 'you know, I need to get that'. This, despite the fact that I have been intensively collecting PI keyboard trios for the last couple of years. So last week, I saw it again and I thought 'you know, I need to get that', and it arrived yesterday evening. Now on my second time through it, and that has given me enough time to figure out a way to kick my own ass for not getting it 2 years ago! :-[

This is a very nice disk, lovingly played, and with great sounding instruments, like an authentic 1798 Broadwood pianoforte. Jerome Hantaï is a very skilled and sensitive player, I see no mention of him being related to Pierre, but he brings the same sort of sensitivity to the fortepiano as Pierre does to the cembalo. The violinist and cellist are also first rate, and the sound quality is top-notch as Astrée/Auvidis/Naïve tend to be. Another feature that I personally like, although I understand there are those who don't, is that they observe all written repeats, giving Haydn some credit for knowing what he wants. The result is a well-balanced sonata form, and 3 keyboard trios that last 66 minutes instead of the more common 70 minutes for 4 that we often get.

This was on sale at Arkiv last week, possibly still is. Glad I got it. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardTriosHantai.jpg)
Jerome Hantaï (1798 Broadwood Fortepiano) \ P. Couvert (Violin) \ A. Verzier (Cello) - Hob 15_22 Trio #36 in Eb for Keyboard & Strings 3rd mvmt - Finale: Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 15, 2012, 04:26:28 PM

Oh, meant to include this:

Hob 15:22 Trio in Eb
I Allegro moderato
II Poco adagio
III Finale: Allegro

Hob 15:23 Trio in d
I Molto andante
II Adagio ma non troppo
III Finale: Vivace

Hob 15:26 Trio in f#
I Allegro
II Adagio cantabile
III Tempo di Minuetto

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 15, 2012, 05:14:34 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 15, 2012, 04:20:01 PM
Purchased today:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardTriosHantai.jpg)

For whatever reason, I have looked at this disk 100 times and never thought 'you know, I need to get that'. This, despite the fact that I have been intensively collecting PI keyboard trios for the last couple of years. So last week, I saw it again and I thought 'you know, I need to get that', and it arrived yesterday evening. Now on my second time through it, and that has given me enough time to figure out a way to kick my own ass for not getting it 2 years ago! :-[

This is a very nice disk, lovingly played, and with great sounding instruments, like an authentic 1798 Broadwood pianoforte. Jerome Hantaï is a very skilled and sensitive player, I see no mention of him being related to Pierre, but he brings the same sort of sensitivity to the fortepiano as Pierre does to the cembalo. The violinist and cellist are also first rate, and the sound quality is top-notch as Astrée/Auvidis/Naïve tend to be. Another feature that I personally like, although I understand there are those who don't, is that they observe all written repeats, giving Haydn some credit for knowing what he wants. The result is a well-balanced sonata form, and 3 keyboard trios that last 66 minutes instead of the more common 70 minutes for 4 that we often get.

This was on sale at Arkiv last week, possibly still is. Glad I got it. :)

Strangely, I have had the same experience with that disc of piano trios. I have considered it a lot of times, but finally I haven't purchased it.

Same story with this disc of piano sonatas:

[asin]B0007OQBTS[/asin]

BTW, the Hantaïs are a trio of brothers like the Kuijken. Pierre, the harpsichordist; Marc, the flutist and Jérôme, the viola da gamba player and eventually fortepianist. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 15, 2012, 05:30:21 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on May 15, 2012, 05:14:34 PM
Strangely, I have had the same experience with that disc of piano trios. I have considered it a lot of times, but finally I haven't purchased it.

Same story with this disc of piano sonatas:

[asin]B0007OQBTS[/asin]

BTW, the Hantaïs are a trio of brothers like the Kuijken. Pierre, the harpsichordist; Marc, the flutist and Jérôme, the viola da gamba player and eventually fortepianist. :)

:D I have also looked at that sonatas disk with the same results. Maybe I will get over my fear of commitment this month. :)

Ah, well I suspected they were, how common is that name, after all, and in the small world of PI music? Good to understand the relationships though. FWIW, that painting on the front of the disk cover is by their father, a well-known painter in his time. Actually, that is what probably scared me off from the first. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnBartolloziTrioscover.jpg)
Trio Galatea - Hob 15_27 Trio in C for Keyboard & Strings 1st mvmt - Allegro

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on May 19, 2012, 03:29:18 PM

Hi - I'm back from vacation and will have a report on the Haydn-related portion of my trip soon. But just to get back into things quickly, here's a disc I discovered and commend to all of you interested in a really weird example of homage carried to extremes.

[asin]B0021BUUX8[/asin]

On ArkivMusic.com they quote the Fanfare review, viz.:

"Luigi Gatti's (1740–1817) Creation Mass owes a far greater debt to Haydn's oratorio than does Haydn's own Mass. Could it be otherwise? Haydn was always writing new music, imitating no one, least of all himself. Gatti uses Haydn's themes, rhythms, and orchestration throughout; this is not plagiarism—it is too obvious for that. Such devoted homage produces a stale imitation of the real thing. Indeed, the freshest moments of the Gatti work are the few connecting passages of his own; we can hear them, even enjoy them, without having to make comparisons. Most of Gatti's piece is so literal a copy that we think the soloists are merely singing the wrong words. I have never heard such an exact duplication of one composer's work by another, which engenders a perverse fascination. The notes tell us that this sort of thing was common at the time, especially in the countryside, but that tradition hasn't survived. Gatti's Mass is also a condensation: The Creation in 29 minutes."

(Go look up the review to see what is said about the Haydn half of the disc - it's very warm and encouraging.)

And to hear what the reviewer means - you'll have trouble believing it, just as he did - click on the Amazon listing and play the Sanctus snippet they offer from the Gatti. Wow! Note for note indeed....

I had never heard of this Gatti person (he was a Kapellmeister in Salzburg from the 1780s, taking a position that Leopold Mozart fancied should have been his) until two weeks ago, when I stumbled on a live performance of a different one of his Masses (a Requiem in C Major). Unrecorded, but thoroughly competent and reasonably original. The man merits a bit more on disc, seems to me....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 19, 2012, 05:12:41 PM

Ah, good to see you back, Conrad. And with an interesting find, at that. I listened to a few snippets; you're quite right, makes you wonder about the line between homage and copyright is drawn. :)

We've been discussing a few things since you've been gone, hope you might have something to pitch in to that. Or maybe you are a straight through disk listener and not interested. We'll see. :)

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Kuijken103_104cover.jpg)
La Petite Bande \ Kuijken - Hob 01_103 Symphony in Eb 4th mvmt - Finale: Allegro con spirito

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on May 19, 2012, 06:21:41 PM

Another recent acquisition:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51selTwUVsL.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00008G1VB/?tag=goodmusicguideco)

An old LP, which I wore out in that form years ago, with some odd material. The cantata 'Appointment of a Conductor' is frankly not Haydn at his best; the three 'filler' choruses are of course masterworks but are all available elsewhere. What I have is not the pressing shown, but a private reissue from Haydn House in Massachusetts that is a superb transfer but lacks the texts. But it's also cheaper than this long-deleted reissue as pictured.

The original LP was on Hungaroton, and the conductor and two of the singers are among those who first recorded "Il Ritorno di Tobia" on the same label. I wore that LP set out as well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 19, 2012, 06:33:37 PM

That's a long story for me. I bought that disk off eBay, wanting to hear that cantata (despite the probability that it is spurious). Also at that time I didn't have any version of "The Storm", so I looked forward to it. Well, when I got it, I put it into the computer to rip it, and the tag came back "Bohemian Christmas Mass". And it was. Can't remember the composer but it sure wasn't Haydn! Anyway, the disk itself said it was the Haydn disk, so it was an error right from the factory. I had to fight with the seller to refund my money, but finally got it all straightened out. Still haven't ever heard the work though... :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/1790v4.jpg)
Trio 1790 - Hob 15_21 Trio in C 1st mvmt - Adagio pastorale - Vivace assai

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on May 20, 2012, 01:57:33 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 19, 2012, 06:33:37 PM
Well, when I got it, I put it into the computer to rip it, and the tag came back "Bohemian Christmas Mass". And it was. Can't remember the composer but it sure wasn't Haydn!

Ryba?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 20, 2012, 02:54:09 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on May 20, 2012, 01:57:33 AM
Ryba?

Yes! New to me, wasn't just crazy about it... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 20, 2012, 09:44:28 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on May 20, 2012, 01:57:33 AM
Ryba?

Sounds fishy to me....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on May 20, 2012, 10:05:15 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on May 20, 2012, 09:44:28 AM
Sounds fishy to me....

Can't be more fishy.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Uncle Connie on May 21, 2012, 04:59:58 PM

Ryba - kinda fun a couple of listens, but wears thin. I've heard some of his other work as well. He wasn't a bad composer, just not a terribly interesting one. But he means something to the Czechs as part of their heritage, so he gets recorded at least by companies like Supraphon.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2012, 05:07:04 PM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on May 21, 2012, 04:59:58 PM
Ryba - kinda fun a couple of listens, but wears thin. I've heard some of his other work as well. He wasn't a bad composer, just not a terribly interesting one. But he means something to the Czechs as part of their heritage, so he gets recorded at least by companies like Supraphon.

Well, Conrad, if you want a disk that is a perfect visual match for your Haydn CD, but has Ryba instead, let me know and you can have twins! Needless to say, I took that disk out of the gene pool so he wouldn't sell it to someone else and I end up with it again. :D

8)

----------------
Now playing:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Goodman13_16cover.jpg)
The Hanover Band; Goodman - Hob 01_013 Symphony in D 3rd mvmt - Menuet

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on May 22, 2012, 02:19:21 AM

This one's solid:

[asin]B000H4VZA8[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Antoine Marchand on May 22, 2012, 09:48:21 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 19, 2012, 06:33:37 PM
That's a long story for me. I bought that disk off eBay, wanting to hear that cantata (despite the probability that it is spurious). Also at that time I didn't have any version of "The Storm", so I looked forward to it. Well, when I got it, I put it into the computer to rip it, and the tag came back "Bohemian Christmas Mass". And it was. Can't remember the composer but it sure wasn't Haydn! Anyway, the disk itself said it was the Haydn disk, so it was an error right from the factory. I had to fight with the seller to refund my money, but finally got it all straightened out. Still haven't ever heard the work though... :D

BTW, not the cantata Die Erwählung eines Kapellmeisters (Appointment of a Conductor), but some time ago I was listening to this beautiful disc on Berlin Classics:

[asin]B000TGF1FY[/asin] (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PO-79kwiL._SS400_.jpg)

It includes two solo cantatas and several original canzonettas. Both the soprano and the fortepiano have extremely pleasant and expressive voices. A pleasure. Highly recommended.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on May 23, 2012, 03:11:15 AM

Quote from: Uncle Connie on May 19, 2012, 03:29:18 PM
Hi - I'm back from vacation and will have a report on the Haydn-related portion of my trip soon. But just to get back into things quickly, here's a disc I discovered and commend to all of you interested in a really weird example of homage carried to extremes.

[asin]B0021BUUX8[/asin]

The entire Carus series of the Frauenkirche recordings is very, very well engineered. Love their sound, even if this particular disc, though very lovely and especially interesting for the 'obscure' Gatti piece, did not exactly blow me away.

Incidentally, am at the Frauenkirche for a few concerts this week myself. Including, I hope, some Haydn with the OAE.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 23, 2012, 04:13:07 AM

Quote from: Eric on May 22, 2012, 09:48:21 PM
BTW, not the cantata Die Erwählung eines Kapellmeisters (Appointment of a Conductor), but some time ago I was listening to this beautiful disc on Berlin Classics:

[asin]B000TGF1FY[/asin] (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PO-79kwiL._SS400_.jpg)

It includes two solo cantatas and several original canzonettas. Both the soprano and the fortepiano have extremely pleasant and expressive voices. A pleasure. Highly recommended.

:)

Thanks for the tip, Eric. I have looked at that disk many times, but wasn't really sure whether to jump on it, given that I have several versions of those works. But what the heck, a pleasant soprano fortepiano has its appeal too... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on May 23, 2012, 04:24:32 AM

Quote from: Eric on May 22, 2012, 09:48:21 PM
BTW, not the cantata Die Erwählung eines Kapellmeisters (Appointment of a Conductor), but some time ago I was listening to this beautiful disc on Berlin Classics:

[asin]B000TGF1FY[/asin] (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PO-79kwiL._SS400_.jpg)

It includes two solo cantatas and several original canzonettas. Both the soprano and the fortepiano have extremely pleasant and expressive voices. A pleasure. Highly recommended.

:)

I found it on Spotify and am listening to the Battle of the Nile - very interesting. This is some Haydn that I've not heard. Thanks for mentioning it.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 23, 2012, 04:29:29 AM

Quote from: Arnold on May 23, 2012, 04:24:32 AM
I found it on Spotify and am listening to the Battle of the Nile - very interesting. This is some Haydn that I've not heard. Thanks for mentioning it.

:)

I've always liked the version on this disk;
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnBattleoftheNilecover.jpg)

but I got the other to hear what someone else might have to say. It is rather unique. Somewhere (1800?) in the chronology I told the story behind it. Rather a strange and amusing tale, really. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 28, 2012, 07:31:11 AM

Boston's Chorus Pro Musica are doing The Creation at NEC. Check it out.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on May 28, 2012, 07:59:06 PM

Cross-posting from listening thread: this weekend I drove to Dallas and back (~9 hours) and listened to this entire box set:

[asin]B005TLWOH2[/asin]

It was a total delight from start to finish. Reliably fantastic playing, vigorous tempi, no harpsichord (pet peeve of mine with Kuijken et al), and wow, every single symphony really is worth hearing.

Gurn, remind me of two things: (a) did I ever write back with thoughts on the mass? (b) I need to look up "Tempora mutantur" to see why it's so oddly titled.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 29, 2012, 02:13:43 AM

Aye, Brian: one tasty box, that is.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 29, 2012, 04:27:47 AM

Quote from: Brian on May 28, 2012, 07:59:06 PM
Cross-posting from listening thread: this weekend I drove to Dallas and back (~9 hours) and listened to this entire box set:

[asin]B005TLWOH2[/asin]

It was a total delight from start to finish. Reliably fantastic playing, vigorous tempi, no harpsichord (pet peeve of mine with Kuijken et al), and wow, every single symphony really is worth hearing.

Gurn, remind me of two things: (a) did I ever write back with thoughts on the mass? (b) I need to look up "Tempora mutantur" to see why it's so oddly titled.

That is a great box, Brian. Strongly recommended to anyone who wants just a nice cross-section of the symphonies (some Stürm und Dräng, the Paris and Chunnel symphonies).

No, not post-listening. :)

"Tempora mutantur" means something like "times change" or "changing times", and I think you can hear it in there as a variety of stylistic idioms incorporated into one piece. Some of our more conservative predecessors have called this work, um... strange. Maybe, but I like it! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 29, 2012, 04:35:53 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on May 28, 2012, 07:31:11 AM
Boston's Chorus Pro Musica are doing The Creation at NEC. Check it out.

This Saturday the 2^nd. (http://www.choruspromusica.org/)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on June 06, 2012, 04:20:15 PM

I don't know why it has taken me this long to hear this disc:

[asin]B0007AC1GO[/asin]

Very nice.

I've seen there is another set out there called Sonatas for Fortepiano, but it seems only available as Used. And I am wondering if the contents overlap.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 06, 2012, 04:28:35 PM

Quote from: Arnold on June 06, 2012, 04:20:15 PM
I don't know why it has taken me this long to hear this disc:

[asin]B0007AC1GO[/asin]

Very nice.

I've seen there is another set out there called Sonatas for Fortepiano, but it seems only available as Used. And I am wondering if the contents overlap.

:)

Arnold,

That 3 disk set and these 3 disks;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardandreas1.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardandreas2.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardandreas3.jpg)

are the same disks. I had just finished hunting down and purchasing the 3 singles when they released the set for a fraction. >:( So it goes. I am very fond of these disks though, glad to have them. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on June 06, 2012, 07:22:01 PM

Nota bene: the 10 CD "Andreas Staier Edtion" box DHM released last year contains two of those Haydn discs, the first two posted by Gurn (iow, not the one titled "Variations and Sonatas")

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 15, 2012, 11:38:21 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on May 23, 2012, 04:29:29 AM
I've always liked the version on this disk;
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnBattleoftheNilecover.jpg)

but I got the other to hear what someone else might have to say. It is rather unique. Somewhere (1800?) in the chronology I told the story behind it. Rather a strange and amusing tale, really. :D

8)

Yes, right in here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg604429.html#msg604429).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on July 16, 2012, 05:53:29 PM

What is this? A whole month has gone by with silence in The House?

Well, at any rate, I'm now giving a first listen to the Quatour Mosaiques recordings I haven't yet heard--for tonight, Opus 20, to be followed by Opus 33 and the 7 Last Words tomorrow or the next day.

Listening to the finale of No. 5 of this set (in f minor, the one to which Hoboken gave the listing of III:35), I was struck by a similarity. Not only is this movement a fugue, but the main theme has (in my ears at least) a strong resemblance to the root theme of Bach's Kunst der Fuge--as if Haydn had taken Bach's theme and used his own variation to ground another fugue upon. Perhaps a tribute from one master to another.

Which leads to the question--
How familiar was Haydn with Bach, especially with such works as KdF? Could he have had access to KdF, then or later? Is there any hard evidence one way or another?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 16, 2012, 06:07:56 PM

Hey, Jeffrey. Interesting question. Not one that is addressed specifically in anything that I've read. I fear I will have to take the more general route and say that in the second half of the 18th century in the German lands, virtually all trained composers and most trained keyboardists were readily and intimately familiar with The 48, as they called the 2 books of the Well-Tempered Klavier. Anything that they knew beyond that would be on an individual basis. On the one hand, northern German composers would have a better chance to know him, but they were in a reactionary mode at the time and really, the only Bach they cared about was C.P.E.. So I wouldn't rule it out altogether, but there isn't much documented evidence for it either. :-\

C.P.E. was a big influence for Haydn though. So indirectly maybe... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on July 25, 2012, 02:02:48 PM

After months of waiting, today I came home to find the copy of Haydn and the Performance of Rhetoric I had ordered. Looks really good.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 25, 2012, 02:44:36 PM

Quote from: Arnold on July 25, 2012, 02:02:48 PM
After months of waiting, today I came home to find the copy of Haydn and the Performance of Rhetoric I had ordered. Looks really good.

:)

Ah, excellent. I am quite curious how you like that. I don't have the book yet, but I have the initial essay that Beghin wrote to present the concept. I am intrigued by the idea, although some of the musical aspects are a bit over my head. Plus there are several other essays in that book which might make it more easily understood. Pray keep us apprised. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 01, 2012, 06:41:33 AM

Hard on the heels of completing my own set of duos (two clarinets), I am plunging into listening to "Papa's" string duos; exquisite!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 01, 2012, 06:54:25 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on August 01, 2012, 06:41:33 AM
Hard on the heels of completing my own set of duos (two clarinets), I am plunging into listening to "Papa's" string duos; exquisite!

Yes, I really enjoy those sonatas. I think the ones you have are the proper scoring of Violin & Viola, I also have them scored for Violin & Cello which the depth of the cello adds an entirely different aspect to them. That scoring (not by Haydn) has always been very popular too; it has existed nearly as long as the original! Such was publishing in the 1770's. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 01, 2012, 06:59:28 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 01, 2012, 06:54:25 AM
Yes, I really enjoy those sonatas. I think the ones you have are the proper scoring of Violin & Viola, I also have them scored for Violin & Cello which the depth of the cello adds an entirely different aspect to them. That scoring (not by Haydn) has always been very popular too; it has existed nearly as long as the original! Such was publishing in the 1770's. :)

8)

Ties in with Ayn Rand's theme in The Fountainhead, don't it? ; )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on August 01, 2012, 07:26:02 AM

Op. 50

Tokyo SQ vs. Nomos SQ

Well, I finally got the DG Tokyo. I primed by listening to the Nomos over the previous week, but I certainly didn't know what to expect. I've felt that the Nomos reading is just so absolutely wonderful, and crisp and clean, that I couldn't imagine how the Tokyo would sound.

Well, the recording is from late 1973, and, judging by the funny picture of the group, they were a bit younger then! (there is some definite ''70s hair' going on there, haha) There is also a lady, so, this isn't the grouping I'm more familiar with (all I have by them right now is the Takemitsu/Barber/Britten cd on RCA).

Then I noticed the instruments they were playing (four Amatis from the 1670s),... and then I heard the sound! And, hmm, what a sound. They reminded me no less than of The Smithson Quartet, the HIP unit: the Tokyo playing here might be the most delicate playing I've ever heard; you would think it was Mozart.

After hearing the Tokyo here, I no longer give a r@tZ@@z about anything HIP. They sound HIP enough for me here,... or,... whatever,... WHATEVER!!,... I'm not arguing, haha!!

And the two recording perfectly complement one another. The Nomos seem to take the repeats, making for much longer quartets, so, hearing the Tokyo does make going through this most, can I say obtuse?, of Haydn's SQ sets, a little easier. I really have no criticisms to compare: they're both great sets,... and, I might add, don't really bother going anywhere else? If you can't get the Tokyo, the Nomos has to be a First Choice here. I know that the Lindsay recording is from the tail end of their career, and I heard some criticisms that they weren't their usual jolly selves in Op.50 (could be wrong).

The instruments in the Tokyo set really make a wonderful difference. There is definite TONE here, and, coupled with the Tokyo's ultra refined playing, I am remind of the semi-HIP playing and sound of a certain group on Collins playing Op.76 (was it the Alberti?, the Allegri?,... something with an 'A') which had cotton candy for instruments!

So, Gurn,... waddaya say?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 01, 2012, 07:39:00 AM

I love the Tokyo's Op 50. It has been called (and not just by me, but by people who actually know something) the greatest version ever put on record. I just don't like to listen to only one idea of how something should sound, so I listen to a variety of performances of this opus. I like them all, for different reasons, as it should be. But in a horrible world situation where I only could have one, it would be the Tokyo. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on August 01, 2012, 06:42:48 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on August 01, 2012, 06:59:28 AM
Ties in with Ayn Rand's theme in The Fountainhead, don't it? ; )

Not really; for one thing, "Papa" was, unlike the majority of Rand's characters, not a psychopath. And to achieve a true parallel to Fountainhead, you would need a situation in which the violin or viola part was substantially rewritten, not merely transposed or transcribed for another instrument, yet still be described as being Haydn's own work as it came from his hands.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on August 01, 2012, 10:57:08 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 01, 2012, 07:39:00 AM
I love the Tokyo's Op 50. It has been called (and not just by me, but by people who actually know something) the greatest version ever put on record. I just don't like to listen to only one idea of how something should sound, so I listen to a variety of performances of this opus. I like them all, for different reasons, as it should be. But in a horrible world situation where I only could have one, it would be the Tokyo. :)

8)

But, the Tokyo ALSO point up how good the Nomos is, for they have particular insights, and deliver an ultra refined 'white' playing that is in perfect opposition to the Tokyo's more...mm... 'feminine' performance (and of course that doesn't mean anything 'weak', oh please! ::)). The Nomos are more etched in marble white; the Tokyo seem to have more golden 'haze' (though of course their playing, nor the recording, are... uh, hazy).

I don't think I heard the Festetics in Op.50, but that's another topic altogether, haha. But who does that leave? The Lindsays, the HIP Solomon on Hyperion (always interesting to hear), the Auryn, the Prazak, the Tatrai, the Kodaly (bland, or clean?), the Aeolian, and the LASQ.

It's nice to have a rare bit like Op.50, that has an end, and we can find the account. This is the first Haydn I've gotten in 3 years! The only set I'd like something in is Op.54 (another rare set; I've got the Endellon, very good but I'd like a second opinion). I was thinking of the Ysaye or the Lindsays.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 02, 2012, 05:35:29 AM

Gotta say I am digging Lenny's Haydn much more than (fifteen years ago) I should have thought likely.

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 01, 2012, 06:42:48 PM
Not really; for one thing, "Papa" was, unlike the majority of Rand's characters, not a psychopath. And to achieve a true parallel to Fountainhead, you would need a situation in which the violin or viola part was substantially rewritten, not merely transposed or transcribed for another instrument, yet still be described as being Haydn's own work as it came from his hands.

Many of your points well take. (Was Roark a psychopath? He certainly didn't come across that way in the movie.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 02, 2012, 06:30:42 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on August 02, 2012, 05:35:29 AM
Was Roark a psychopath? He certainly didn't come across that way in the movie.

Blowing up a building doesn't count? :D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 02, 2012, 06:32:32 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 02, 2012, 06:30:42 AM
Blowing up a building doesn't count? :D

Sarge

Nah, hell, that's just SOP in these times. ::)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 02, 2012, 06:50:55 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 02, 2012, 06:30:42 AM
Blowing up a building doesn't count? :D

He made sure the site was clear of people. Awfully rational : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on August 02, 2012, 01:02:20 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on August 02, 2012, 05:35:29 AM
Gotta say I am digging Lenny's Haydn much more than (fifteen years ago) I should have thought likely.

Many of your points well take. (Was Roark a psychopath? He certainly didn't come across that way in the movie.)

The movie version seems to have cleaned him up and made him more likeable. Rand's description in the book makes him a much less likeable person, someone who has no sympathy for anyone else and very little interest in others, except to the extent that they can help his projects, until he gets involved with Dominique. Actually, she describes him as having "no theory of mind", although she doesn't use the phrase, which is the current core of thinking about autistic people. But if he's autistic, he is autistic to the point of being a psychopath. This is the book, after all, in which the hero rapes the heroine.

But I was really thinking of Atlas Shrugged, in which there's only one major character who, if plopped down into real life on his or her own, would not be considered at least neurotic and perhaps psychotic. The exception is Dagney's aide Eddie, and one can see how Rand thought of him when you consider that she abandons him in the middle of the desert and doesn't even hint at the possibility that Dagney or the other "heros" will try to save him in consideration of his personal loyalty and integrity.

I have no idea of how to turn this back into Haydn, so I'll stop here.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 02, 2012, 01:14:32 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 02, 2012, 01:02:20 PM
The movie version seems to have cleaned him up and made him more likeable.

Hard not to find Gary Cooper likable; and he certainly imparts a positive construction on Roark's rough edges.

Haydn, though ... the nickname of La poule was not idly given. I'm tempted to play it at home and see how the parakeets respond.

I mentioned in the WAYLT thread that the development of the first movement provides a relatively rare instance of Lenny's control of the band slipping just "a hair bit" as we would say on West 95th Street.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 03, 2012, 08:16:15 PM

This is a good bargain, the complete Piano Trios played by the Haydn Trio Eisenstadt, for around $25 US/Aus

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Phoenix%2BEdition/161PHOENIX#download

Mp3 download that is.

I have a couple of disks of the Piano Trios, but wanted to listen to the rest. The sound on this recording is excellent, and the playing is good too!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on August 04, 2012, 02:59:38 AM

Good post about the problems of downloads:

http://www.overgrownpath.com/2012/08/the-problem-is-mp3-files-cannot-look-at.html (http://www.overgrownpath.com/2012/08/the-problem-is-mp3-files-cannot-look-at.html)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 04, 2012, 03:18:30 PM

Forgot to add you,can download them as FLACs, but the download size would be 10 times bigger!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 04, 2012, 04:22:16 PM

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 04, 2012, 03:18:30 PM
Forgot to add you,can download them as FLACs, but the download size would be 10 times bigger!

Unless you are playing them back on your home stereo, the MP3's are likely more than adequate. There are quite a few people here who speak very highly of that cycle. If it can be had as a bargain, one would not be mis-stepping to pick it up. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 04, 2012, 05:16:21 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 04, 2012, 04:22:16 PM
Unless you are playing them back on your home stereo, the MP3's are likely more than adequate. There are quite a few people here who speak very highly of that cycle. If it can be had as a bargain, one would not be mis-stepping to pick it up. :)

8)

Yes, I think those are the favorite interpretations of Sonic, for instance; although Dave, who is a good-natured and tolerant person never does this kind of strong judgements, of course.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 04, 2012, 05:20:09 PM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on August 04, 2012, 05:16:21 PM
Yes, I think those are the favorite interpretations of Sonic, for instance; although Dave, who is a good-natured and tolerant person never does this kind of strong judgements, of course.

Yes, Dave was the first to bring them up to me, although several since then agreed with him. I have that group playing the folksongs and am very pleased with their playing. Of course, with the trios, since I already collect period instrument versions I scarcely need yet another to add to the pile! But if one wants one nice, modern version, it would be hard to go wrong here, I think. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 04, 2012, 05:26:23 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 04, 2012, 05:20:09 PM
Yes, Dave was the first to bring them up to me, although several since then agreed with him. I have that group playing the folksongs and am very pleased with their playing. Of course, with the trios, since I already collect period instrument versions I scarcely need yet another to add to the pile! But if one wants one nice, modern version, it would be hard to go wrong here, I think. :)

8)

Yes, I have those folksongs and I'm very satisfied with them. Unfortunately, the case wasn't the same when I purchased their Beethoven piano trios. I judged them a bit weak in character and I don't consider them a first choice, period instruments or not.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 04, 2012, 06:12:24 PM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on August 04, 2012, 05:26:23 PM
Yes, I have those folksongs and I'm very satisfied with them. Unfortunately, the case wasn't the same when I purchased their Beethoven piano trios. I judged them a bit weak in character and I don't consider them a first choice, period instruments or not.

Pity about that. Well, Beethoven's trios are of a different character than Haydn's. I can see a group that excels in one not doing so well in the other. Plus the competition is so much more fierce! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 04, 2012, 11:18:56 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 04, 2012, 05:20:09 PM
Yes, Dave was the first to bring them up to me, although several since then agreed with him. I have that group playing the folksongs and am very pleased with their playing. Of course, with the trios, since I already collect period instrument versions I scarcely need yet another to add to the pile! But if one wants one nice, modern version, it would be hard to go wrong here, I think. :)

8)

One of the reasons they were so attractive too was that they could be had for $10-15 (I got mine for about $11). I don't have other versions, but I think it is quite good. They play with both seriousness and joy, lightness and weight. They play with good judgment. Most importantly, they seem to play with a unity of vision. That's my take anyway.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on August 05, 2012, 01:47:49 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 04, 2012, 11:18:56 PM
They play with both seriousness and joy, lightness and weight. They play with good judgment. Most importantly, they seem to play with a unity of vision.

I suppose the opotunity of studying folk songs arrangement is the great advantage in understanding of the style.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 05, 2012, 06:10:41 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on August 04, 2012, 05:16:21 PM
Yes, I think those are the favorite interpretations of Sonic, for instance; although Dave, who is a good-natured and tolerant person never does this kind of strong judgements, of course.

Hi Guys - been away from the classical threads for a while (house & porch renovations, updating/cleaning/organizing my basement shop, AND trying to organize & cull down my non-classical collection, instead of tripping & knocking over the piles of these CDs on the floor that I've moved from my den to make more space for my classical stuff thanks to this forum! ;D).

BUT, I do enjoy the Haydn Trio Eisenstadt, and now going for $18 on Amazon as MP3 downloads (buck a disc!) - however, my other set (just have the two boxes of these works) is w/ the Van Swieten Trio w/ Bart van Oort on fortepiano - also excellent - Dave :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnPTrios/639958931_UHw6B-S.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-G7bZQdN/0/S/HaydnPTriosOort-S.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 05, 2012, 06:26:32 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 04, 2012, 05:20:09 PM
Yes, Dave was the first to bring them up to me, although several since then agreed with him.

Like me 8)

I love the Eisenstadts as much as I hate the Trio 1790 set. Although the sound of the Fortepiano is lovely, I cannot stand the ugly squeezing technique the violinist employs constantly. It's aural torture to me. It's one of the very few purchases I've ever made that I regret.

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on August 04, 2012, 05:16:21 PM
...although Dave, who is a good-natured and tolerant person never does this kind of strong judgements, of course.

Unlike me :D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 05, 2012, 10:07:44 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 04, 2012, 06:12:24 PM
Pity about that. Well, Beethoven's trios are of a different character than Haydn's. I can see a group that excels in one not doing so well in the other. Plus the competition is so much more fierce! :)

8)

Yes, it's obvious, but not every piece of music is spiritually suited for every performer. For instance, yesterday I was listening to a disc of Sviatoslav Richter, where he plays a Haydn sonata (namely, Keyboard Sonata No. 44 in F major, Hob.XVI:29) and I could swear that Richter had serious problems to understand Haydn's language, at least in that performance. And it's obvious that his problems are not technical at all.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 05, 2012, 10:10:01 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 05, 2012, 06:26:32 AM

Unlike me :D

Sarge

... but we like that, too. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on August 16, 2012, 11:11:48 AM

Quote from: Arnold on August 16, 2012, 10:38:39 AM
[asin] B000U9WZA4[/asin]

A period instrument (PI) string quartet doing a nice selection of Haydn quartets from middle to late. Definitely a valuable addition to the available recordings, and it looks as if they are embarking on a cycle since there is a "Vol. 2" out there as well.

:)

Thought I'd cross post this from the WAYLT thread.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 16, 2012, 12:22:01 PM

Quote from: Arnold on August 16, 2012, 11:11:48 AM
Thought I'd cross post this from the WAYLT thread.

It's an excellent disk, I agree. There is a second one also, but I don't have it yet. Actually, I find it refreshing to listen to the quartets played in other than the usual order. 1 each from 3 different opera is a pleasant hour's listening, especially when it's this quality of playing! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 17, 2012, 04:02:23 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 16, 2012, 12:22:01 PM
. . . Actually, I find it refreshing to listen to the quartets played in other than the usual order.

I can entirely see (and dig) that; I've been (over a distended period, bien sûr) trying just to win some familiarity with the lot, so my listening has perforce been In a Chronological Groove.

But to-day, O Gurn, I damn the torpedoes, and I'll sling a few randomized quartets into a queue : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2012, 04:19:38 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on August 17, 2012, 04:02:23 AM
I can entirely see (and dig) that; I've been (over a distended period, bien sûr) trying just to win some familiarity with the lot, so my listening has perforce been In a Chronological Groove.

But to-day, O Gurn, I damn the torpedoes, and I'll sling a few randomized quartets into a queue : )

I thought you had that Amsterdam disk anyway, Karl. You might give it a spin and enjoy. :)

Snipper would be mortified to know that we listened to a string quartet outside of its chronology! :o :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on August 17, 2012, 04:38:01 AM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 16, 2012, 12:22:01 PM
It's an excellent disk, I agree. There is a second one also, but I don't have it yet. Actually, I find it refreshing to listen to the quartets played in other than the usual order. 1 each from 3 different opera is a pleasant hour's listening, especially when it's this quality of playing! :)

8)

Oh, for sure, I prefer a mixed program from various periods to the chronological approach. I am an old-fashioned kind of guy who likes to think of a recording as what one might hear at a live concert - only captured on disc. If I went bent that way, I'd create playlists from my box sets that would mirror that idea. I may just do it anyway.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2012, 04:54:47 AM

Quote from: Arnold on August 17, 2012, 04:38:01 AM
Oh, for sure, I prefer a mixed program from various periods to the chronological approach. I am an old-fashioned kind of guy who likes to think of a recording as what one might hear at a live concert - only captured on disc. If I went bent that way, I'd create playlists from my box sets that would mirror that idea. I may just do it anyway.

:)

I recommend it; I've been doing it for years! Which is to say, trying to recreate the agenda of a concert programme. THat's the beauty of having digital files on your computer; it's a snap to do that sort of thing. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on August 17, 2012, 04:57:19 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on August 17, 2012, 04:02:23 AM

But to-day, O Gurn, I damn the torpedoes, and I'll sling a few randomized quartets into a queue[/font] : )

How did John Cage get in here?

Thread duty: found in the used CD bin at FYE the Dorati recording of The Creation (with Salve Regina). I'm looking forward to it, considering that of the three recordings I already own, only one (Bernstein) is MI. (Jacobs and McCreesh are the other two.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2012, 05:11:17 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 17, 2012, 04:57:19 PM
How did John Cage get in here?

Thread duty: found in the used CD bin at FYE the Dorati recording of The Creation (with Salve Regina). I'm looking forward to it, considering that of the three recordings I already own, only one (Bernstein) is MI. (Jacobs and McCreesh are the other two.)

Nice! I think Dorati did much for Haydn, and despite the fact that they are old recordings, there is certainly nothing about them that is in any way a turnoff. Having never heard it myself, I can only ask that you let us know how you like it compared to, say, Jacobs. I don't think I have any MI 'Creation', I'll have to check. I do have Karajan's 'Seasons' though... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on August 17, 2012, 05:53:12 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 17, 2012, 05:11:17 PM
Nice! I think Dorati did much for Haydn, and despite the fact that they are old recordings, there is certainly nothing about them that is in any way a turnoff. Having never heard it myself, I can only ask that you let us know how you like it compared to, say, Jacobs. I don't think I have any MI 'Creation', I'll have to check. I do have Karajan's 'Seasons' though... :)

8)

Will put it on now. Although I just realized the Salve Regina is with a completely different cast of performers--Laszlo Heltay conducting the Argo Chamber Orchestra and London Chamber Choir, whomever he and they are. But at least I've heard of the soloists--Arleen Auger, Alfreda Hodgson, Anthony Rolfe Johnson, and Gwynne Howell. Dorati uses five soloists for The Creation: Popp, Hollweg, Moll, Dose, Luxon, with the Royal Philharmonic and Brighton Festival Chorus--for whom the chorus master is Laszlo Heltay. Well, at least I know where he came into this project from.

And I see that Dorati not only conducts, but is one of the continuo group (harpsichord).

Salve Regina comes first on this two-fer, so I probably won't report until tomorrow (it will almost be time for me to say nighty night by the time the recording finishes).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2012, 05:57:53 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 17, 2012, 05:53:12 PM
Will put it on now. Although I just realized the Salve Regina is with a completely different cast of performers--Laszlo Heltay conducting the Argo Chamber Orchestra and London Chamber Choir, whomever he and they are. But at least I've heard of the soloists--Arleen Auger, Alfreda Hodgson, Anthony Rolfe Johnson, and Gwynne Howell. Dorati uses five soloists for The Creation: Popp, Hollweg, Moll, Dose, Luxon, with the Royal Philharmonic and Brighton Festival Chorus--for whom the chorus master is Laszlo Heltay. Well, at least I know where he came into this project from.

And I see that Dorati not only conducts, but is one of the continuo group (harpsichord).

Salve Regina comes first on this two-fer, so I probably won't report until tomorrow (it will almost be time for me to say nighty night by the time the recording finishes).

Oh yes, nice soloists. I'm a big Auger fan, I have a disk of her singing with Hogwood and the Handel & Haydn Society Orchestra that's just lovely. Nice music for late night contemplation. See ya! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on August 17, 2012, 07:51:03 PM

Nearing the end of Part III, and I've got a fairly good impression of it. It is in fact a good one, sonics done very well, and the differences can be described more or less as what you'd imagine when comparing an excellent MI performance with an excellent PI performance. Choral parts are not as sharp and individual sounding as they are on Jacobs or McCreesh, but that's probably a function of the size of the chorus. And the sound is much better than on the Bernstein, although Lenny's was recording in concert and this one was apparently not. In fact, the only reason not to like this recording would be because you're a doctrinaire PI advocate, and since you're not.....

ETA: the "Creation of Light" was especially memorable, and more so than on Jacobs or McCreesh.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on August 22, 2012, 09:49:53 AM

A new (to me) PI keyboardist and Hadyn recording:

[asin]B0030UO9LI[/asin]

Carole Cerasi (http://www.carolecerasi.com/biography.php) is a British keyboardist sepcialzing in harpsichord, clavichord and fortepiano performance, mainly of French Baroque, but also CPE Bach and the above referenced disc. So far, I am impressed.

I linked her website which provides a bio and other information, e.g. on her PI trio "Ensemble Turk (http://www.carolecerasi.com/ensemble.html)" which might also be worthwhile checking out.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 22, 2012, 10:07:18 AM

Quote from: Arnold on August 22, 2012, 09:49:53 AM
A new (to me) PI keyboardist and Hadyn recording:

[asin]B0030UO9LI[/asin]

Carole Cerasi (http://www.carolecerasi.com/biography.php) is a British keyboardist sepcialzing in harpsichord, clavichord and fortepiano performance, mainly of French Baroque, but also CPE Bach and the above referenced disc. So far, I am impressed.

I linked her website which provides a bio and other information, e.g. on her PI trio "Ensemble Turk (http://www.carolecerasi.com/ensemble.html)" which might also be worthwhile checking out.

I predict that ultimately you will really like that disk. I got it when it was released and have listened to it many times since. She really has a nice way with the music, like Haydn's dialect is her own. Nice sounding instruments, too!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 22, 2012, 10:12:28 AM

Quote from: Arnold on August 22, 2012, 09:49:53 AM

I linked her website which provides a bio and other information, e.g. on her PI trio "Ensemble Turk (http://www.carolecerasi.com/ensemble.html)" which might also be worthwhile checking out.

That trio looks very interesting. The players are all very familiar, esp. Pavlo Benznosiuk. I wish they had listed a few of their recordings, although all I see is her solo stuff. :(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 22, 2012, 05:44:49 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 17, 2012, 05:11:17 PM
Nice! I think Dorati did much for Haydn, and despite the fact that they are old recordings, there is certainly nothing about them that is in any way a turnoff. Having never heard it myself, I can only ask that you let us know how you like it compared to, say, Jacobs. I don't think I have any MI 'Creation', I'll have to check. I do have Karajan's 'Seasons' though... :)

8)

These days I have been tempted by the opportunity of an attractively priced box set of the complete symphonies. It's not a bargain ( around $100), but this is an item quite OOP.

What do you think, Gurn, should I purchase this box? :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 22, 2012, 05:52:11 PM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on August 22, 2012, 05:44:49 PM
These days I have been tempted by the opportunity of an attractively priced box set of the complete symphonies. It's not a bargain ( around $100), but this is an item quite OOP.

What do you think, Gurn, should I purchase this box? :)

Well, ALF, I know you like historic things way more than I do, and despite the fact that this isn't a rarity, it is of great historic value since Dorati's recording of the symphonies was what finally brought Haydn to most people. It wasn't the first, but of the early things that I've heard and heard of, it was the best. I have the "Paris" Double-Decca (my first version of those works) and "Morning, Noon & Night" disk and I think even today that they are pretty fine. I personally think a lot of those historic things are not worth my time and money, but this box certainly doesn't fall into that category. :)

That's my opinion, I might be wrong. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 22, 2012, 06:07:48 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 22, 2012, 05:52:11 PM
Well, ALF, I know you like historic things way more than I do, and despite the fact that this isn't a rarity, it is of great historic value since Dorati's recording of the symphonies was what finally brought Haydn to most people. It wasn't the first, but of the early things that I've heard and heard of, it was the best. I have the "Paris" Double-Decca (my first version of those works) and "Morning, Noon & Night" disk and I think even today that they are pretty fine. I personally think a lot of those historic things are not worth my time and money, but this box certainly doesn't fall into that category. :)

That's my opinion, I might be wrong. 0:)

8)

Thanks! A well reasoned response, as usual.

I don't have any recording by Dorati because he is a bit before my time as a Haydn listener and, basically, because I think a lot when I purchase any Haydn or Mozart played on modern instruments. Even more than I do when I buy, for instance, some Bach disc.

Dorati sounds fine, my only concern is that his recordings seem a little bit "string-oriented"; but maybe it's just YouTube.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 22, 2012, 06:17:45 PM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on August 22, 2012, 06:07:48 PM
Thanks! A well reasoned response, as usual.

I don't have any recording by Dorati because he is a bit before my time as a Haydn listener and, basically, because I think a lot when I purchase any Haydn or Mozart played on modern instruments. Even more than I do when I buy, for instance, some Bach disc.

Dorati sounds fine, my only concern is that his recordings seem a little bit "string-oriented"; but maybe it's just YouTube.

Haydn's own orchestra was a tad string heavy too, FWIW. :) I know what you mean though about really having to ponder before buying something that's out of your comfort zone, so to speak. One thing about it though, if you subscribe to the concept of orchestras having an idiom based on their traditions, I think it is safe to say that the Philharmonica Hungarica stems from the same tradition, carried over the long arc of time, that spawned the Esterháza Orchestra. I know that not everyone believes in that concept, but I think it's valid. Certainly they have more in common than either does with, say, another orchestra from a different tradition like the LSO or the Concertgebouworkest. Just ruminating. Anyway, sound quality is good too, at least on my 3 disks. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 22, 2012, 06:31:17 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 22, 2012, 06:17:45 PM
Haydn's own orchestra was a tad string heavy too, FWIW. :) I know what you mean though about really having to ponder before buying something that's out of your comfort zone, so to speak. One thing about it though, if you subscribe to the concept of orchestras having an idiom based on their traditions, I think it is safe to say that the Philharmonica Hungarica stems from the same tradition, carried over the long arc of time, that spawned the Esterháza Orchestra. I know that not everyone believes in that concept, but I think it's valid. Certainly they have more in common than either does with, say, another orchestra from a different tradition like the LSO or the Concertgebouworkest. Just ruminating.

Well, I subscribe this concept and that's the reason why IMO -I know you think other way here-, the Tátrai Quartet is so good, the same that, for instance, Sándor Végh conducting Mozart's serenades & divertimenti (although with an Austrian orchestra).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 22, 2012, 06:38:00 PM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on August 22, 2012, 06:31:17 PM
Well, I subscribe this concept and that's the reason why IMO -I know you think other way here-, the Tátrai Quartet is so good, the same that, for instance, Sándor Végh conducting Mozart's serenades & divertimenti (although with an Austrian orchestra).

If Sándor Végh's players used PI's I would like them a lot. I miss the tone color, but I don't fault the playing. :) The Tátrai Quartet just feel too overly Romantic to me, in their Op 50 & 76 (all I have) they seem to try to wring way out more emotion than any Classicist would imply. Their playing is impeccable, I just prefer it in different repertoire, late & post-Schubert. That said, yes, the same organic elements in their ancestry. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 22, 2012, 06:53:26 PM

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 22, 2012, 06:38:00 PM
If Sándor Végh's players used PI's I would like them a lot. I miss the tone color, but I don't fault the playing. :)

No doubt, played on period instruments those recordings would be a landmark.

Quote from: Gurnatron5500 on August 22, 2012, 06:38:00 PM
The Tátrai Quartet just feel too overly Romantic to me, in their Op 50 & 76 (all I have) they seem to try to wring way out more emotion than any Classicist would imply. Their playing is impeccable, I just prefer it in different repertoire, late & post-Schubert. That said, yes, the same organic elements in their ancestry. :)

Regarding the Tátrai I don't consider their interpretations over romanticized, although obviously they are not HIP; I would call them pre-HIP (like Walcha or Richter in Bach). I particularly like their controlled vibrato, quite unusual for the string quartets of their age.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on August 28, 2012, 05:40:34 PM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on August 22, 2012, 06:53:26 PM
Regarding the Tátrai I don't consider their interpretations over romanticized, although obviously they are not HIP; I would call them pre-HIP (like Walcha or Richter in Bach). I particularly like their controlled vibrato, quite unusual for the string quartets of their age.

That is fair. Richter, Walcha and Tatrai stand out as unusual. Trying to be something different but still not different enough. You end up with music that is not indulgent yet not idiomatic. Interpretations with moments of brilliance and many passages where they are stumbling to find the right path. Serious when it should be joyous, matter of fact when it is fine to be emotional.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leon on August 29, 2012, 12:55:24 PM

Listening , and enjoying quite a bit, this (new to me) program of string quratets by Quartuor Suk:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Ut97ughlL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

Their way with these works is very pleasing - especially the Menuet of 76/2 - which can come across, in less capable hands, as plodding and not very graceful. With Quatuor Suk, by contrast, the music lifts lightly.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 29, 2012, 03:23:18 PM

Hi Guys - I've been scarce from the classical threads lately - doing a lot of house renovations & workshop projects, so spending a LOT of time on my woodworking forums, and also trying to go through my non-classical CD collection (enjoying but disposing of many!) - just put in a few new classical CD orders, so will be back more actively in the near future! ;D

BUT, just received the Sept-Oct issues of Fanfare & American Record Guide - in the latter was a review of the Beghin box of Haydn keyboard works played on various instruments; I know that a number of us, including me, own this set that has been generally appreciated here; however the American Record Guide review (which I've attached from my online account - don't tell on me!) is a rather scathing attack on this production - don't know the reviewer but would be curious of comments from others - thanks. Dave

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 29, 2012, 04:14:05 PM

Thanks, Dave! Why, just this weekend past I worked a little at listening against a still-too-large Beghin deficit ....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on August 29, 2012, 04:16:24 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on August 29, 2012, 03:23:18 PM
Hi Guys - I've been scarce from the classical threads lately - doing a lot of house renovations & workshop projects, so spending a LOT of time on my woodworking forums, and also trying to go through my non-classical CD collection (enjoying but disposing of many!) - just put in a few new classical CD orders, so will be back more actively in the near future! ;D

BUT, just received the Sept-Oct issues of Fanfare & American Record Guide - in the latter was a review of the Beghin box of Haydn keyboard works played on various instruments; I know that a number of us, including me, own this set that has been generally appreciated here; however the American Record Guide review (which I've attached from my online account - don't tell on me!) is a rather scathing attack on this production - don't know the reviewer but would be curious of comments from others - thanks. Dave

Well, someone should draw his attention to Brautigam--he writes as if that set doesn't even exist.
Personally, I'm quite satisfied with Beghin, and with Brautigam, and the set of other than sonatas by van Oort (I don't have the multi player set from Brilliant). When I want Haydn on modern piano, I have Hamelin. Which is why, though I dashed off to get Bavouzet's Beethoven a couple of months ago, I've not gotten his Haydn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 29, 2012, 04:41:09 PM

I agree with that, Jeffrey. If you will note his "favorites", not a single one of them is either on original instruments OR played by any pianist who attempts to follow an historic style. As he mentions himself early on, "We've been spoiled with the supple, beautifully rhetorical Haydn performances of players like Schiff and Bavouzet ". Yes, he has!

Like so many, he can't get the sound of modern performance out of your head in order to be able to actually appreciate what is being presented. He can't get past the 200 years of stylistic accretion which is piled on top of the original music being played in the original style. If the playing was done in a modern style, then what would be the point of playing it on authentically recreated instruments? You would just play it on a Steinway and be done with it! I'm not arguing that there is anything wrong with Schiff and Bavouzet (of Hamelin for that matter, or any of those others). I'm saying that they are no basis for comparison with what Beghin is doing. At the very least, compare him to Brautigam, Schornsheim, or Wataya, Staier, Oort, Bilson, Fuller... and even then, the essential difference is a lack of compromise being made for the sake of entertainment value. If that makes Beghin an academic, then so be it. It certainly doesn't devalue the quality of his playing, or the project itself, which is one of the boldest ventures to emerge from the modern recording industry. If that is a bigger concept than one, small-minded beetling critic can handle, that's OK with me. I loved having my intellect entertained for once. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 29, 2012, 04:47:45 PM

Oh, the original for those who don't want to convert from the 4 words per line format;

HAYDN: Keyboard music (all)Tom Beghin, hpsi, pno
Naxos 501203 [12CD] 18 hours

Someone at McGill University had a wonderful idea: what if we tried to reconstruct the actual performing circumstances of the playing of Haydn keyboard works—instruments and room ambience—and recorded these reconstructions? It would be a wonderful experiment. Haydn's works span the scale from small pieces to be played by a player alone or perhaps a student for a teacher all the way up to the big sonatas meant for concerts. His work spans an important time in the development of keyboard music. The early works are for harpsichord, clavichord, or primitive piano; and the last works were meant for instruments fairly close to modern pianos. And there's enough music to make a series of programs to show how the music and the players and the purpose of the music all interact.

McGill, as a major university that takes the arts seriously, had the resources to put into this and very smart people to make it happen. There's a DVD bonus disc in this set that shows a lot of what they went through in investigating room sizes and reverberation and selecting instruments. I think they may have worked from empty rooms and not compensated later for the dampening effects of spectators and their clothing, but still it's a wonderfully clever and laboriously carried out enterprise. If you ever have a chance to see the video presentation, either on television (fat chance if you live in the US) or perhaps on YouTube, try to take advantage of it.
But now we come to the problems, and they're big ones.

The first and lesser problem is the instruments. The ones used here are two harpsichords (copies of a 1755 Johann Leydecker and a c. 1770 French one), a clavichord (Saxon style c. 1760); a table-piano (a copy of 1788 Ignaz Kober); and three fortepianos (copies of Anton Walter from 1782 and after 1791 and Longman, Clementi & Co, 1798). They are played with old tunings that will sound strange to modern ears, and the instruments themselves, except for the fortepianos, sound strange in this music. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it is something to be mentioned and understood. The early works actually sound better on harpsichord and clavichord than they do on modern pianos because the writing is spare and the bass-treble balance of the old instruments works with the writing better. Of course some of these early works could well have been played with a bass instrument (gamba or cello) doubling the bass line and a flute or violin playing the treble, but no need to go there.

The second problem, which is serious, i,e. who is doing the playing. Mr Beghin, who is Belgian-born academic, studied with harpsichordist Malcolm Bilson and pianist Rudolf Buchbinder, among others, but he plays like well... an academic. We've been spoiled with the supple, beautifully rhetorical Haydn performances of players like Schiff and Bavouzet and Beghin, who probably knows and deeply understands rhetoric and its role in 18th Century music, seems not to be able to translate this knowledge into performance. What we get instead are odd performances that seem to lurch hammishly in attempts at expression the great F minor Variations are the worst victim of this—or to relax into blandness—Sonata 34 in E minor, so beautifully played by Schiff is pretty plain-vanilla musically, despite the ingenious use of ornamentation. I don't know why this is so. Perhaps he had to learn a lot of music in a short time and didn't have a chance to get deeply into it—or maybe he's just not natural performer.
One thing he is is a consistently interesting and informative writer. His copious notes are fine exploration of many of the concern involved in trying to perform this music.

If you're looking for Haydn sonatas to listen to and get to know, this is not the set for you. Get the Schiff set and then buy the Bavouzet discs as they come out (he's up to three, I believe). There are some good complete sets (Jando on Naxos, McCabe on Decca—though a little subdued sometimes Walid Akl, if you can find him), but Schiff and Bavouzet are really at the top of what you can get now.

On the other hand, if you already know these works or are a scholar or a university music department librarian, this is worth considering. The oddity of the playing won't matter that much, since you already know the music and you can listen past it to the sounds of the instruments and the "play" between the instruments and the halls. You may also be able to hear, as Beghin suggests, how the music and the instruments shaped each other, since Haydn was a true professional deeply involved in the day-to-day matters of how is music was to be performed and what instrumental resources he had available to perform it.
CHAKWIN

Oh, just as a further comment; "harpsichordist Malcolm Bilson..." ?? I have nearly every recording by Bilson that can be found today, and without exception they are played on the fortepiano. In point of fact, he is among the top 3 living fortepianists and was a teacher of most others you can name. Mr. Chakwin would do well to know little things like that before writing about them. ::)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 11, 2012, 01:41:44 PM

Here's a bombshell. I increased my Haydn collection by 20-30%!

Here's the scoop. It started benignly enough with an innocent blind listening test. Me being a blind listening junkie - I couldn't resist a new blind listening exercise. And lo and behold it was a Haydn quartet. I generally don't like chamber as much as orchestral stuff, but who could resist. Besides, I've been enjoying chamber more and more these past few years (the Brahms Piano Trio 1 is guilty as charged). Well I listened to several versions. I listened and re-listened. But there was one where I really liked the interpretation and I really loved the sound.

I should mention that prior to this, over the past year or so, I have been painstakingly assembling a complete quartet set by buying up individual releases so that I could test out all sorts of different ensembles. There has been so much disagreement about some of the performing groups that I wanted to listen to myself. So I assembled the Justice League of Quartet ensembles - the cream of the crop - the best of the best - the pick of the litters - well, you get the picture. :) I got the London SQ in Op 9, Auryn in Op 17, Mosaiques in OP 20 and 33, Tetrai in Op 50, Festetics in Op 64, Kodaly in Op 71, Takacs in Op 76, and Lindsays in Op 77. I built these around the Endellion Op 54 and 74, which I had owned previously and enjoyed (to test the waters). I paid more than I had to just to be able to hear a variety of ensembles.

A few months ago, I had gotten all the discs in the mail. I ripped the 16 discs to my collection - priority! In they went and then they sat there...and sat there....and sat there. I didn't know why I was avoiding it. Perhaps it seemed too much like work. Thus, well-timed, along came DavidW's blind listening comparison of Haydn String Quartet of Op 50, #1. Remember the blind listening? I started this story with the blind listening. :-* Well, I listened and I listened and I listened. Lo and behold, it turned out that one of the performances was in my top three both times. No other group had that (and I had liked them too). Surely, I had to get them? But what about the blood, pain and hard cash spent on all those discs - how could I justify the expense of a (full, expensive) set. After all, even the cheapest of Haydn Quartet sets is not cheap. I struggled and rationalized, and pleaded with my wallet! I was rejected, not once but several times. But then - a sale!!! For $50, the set could be mine! I ordered it! Oh rash act, but the price was a sign surely! And I still had everything before Op 9 to get and this was a group I didn't have yet(who said rationalizing is bad?).

But was it to be mine?!?!? It was out of stock when I ordered it. No!!!!!! I waited with bated breath. Would it ship?!? I checked my email and I waited. Sometimes I would check several times a day. I waited and waited and each day I checked. And a week later - success! It shipped! But then I had to travel for work and I didn't come back immediately, which is when I made my mistake. I had it shipped to where I was. But because of a strange set of circumstances, I kept travelling, and the box was always a destination behind! Ack! Would it ever catch up? Was I being punished for my lack of attention to my existing discs? Would I ever lay my hands on it. One week dragged to two weeks to three to four to a month to two months. Would I ever be united with my precious? Was destiny intervening? It is now 2.5 months since that fated set was dispatched and today, finally, it caught up to me!!!!

So I sit here, up late, listening to the second disc in a row from this set - the Op 76 String Quartets. I recognize a couple of the melodies, but I have never actually listened to them before and they are glorious. The sound and the playing are top notch. I am, at long last, at peace with my Hadyn Quartets.

By now you must wonder - which set is it?

Maybe?

You sure you want to keep going?

:)

Almost there.....

One more....

[asin]B007CW2FGG[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on September 11, 2012, 02:21:05 PM

Awesome I'm so glad that it's cheap now, I have to buy that set! (rebuy because I lost the set, not sold but lost the set).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 11, 2012, 03:03:26 PM

Excellent, Neal. Hope you have many happy hours with this music. As I mentioned somewhere before, the Haydn quartets were my introduction to chamber music in general. Hope they are your threshold too! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on September 11, 2012, 03:17:05 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 29, 2012, 04:41:09 PM
I agree with that, Jeffrey. If you will note his "favorites", not a single one of them is either on original instruments OR played by any pianist who attempts to follow an historic style. As he mentions himself early on, "We've been spoiled with the supple, beautifully rhetorical Haydn performances of players like Schiff and Bavouzet ". Yes, he has!

Like so many, he can't get the sound of modern performance out of your head in order to be able to actually appreciate what is being presented. He can't get past the 200 years of stylistic accretion which is piled on top of the original music being played in the original style. If the playing was done in a modern style, then what would be the point of playing it on authentically recreated instruments? You would just play it on a Steinway and be done with it! I'm not arguing that there is anything wrong with Schiff and Bavouzet (of Hamelin for that matter, or any of those others). I'm saying that they are no basis for comparison with what Beghin is doing. At the very least, compare him to Brautigam, Schornsheim, or Wataya, Staier, Oort, Bilson, Fuller... and even then, the essential difference is a lack of compromise being made for the sake of entertainment value. If that makes Beghin an academic, then so be it. It certainly doesn't devalue the quality of his playing, or the project itself, which is one of the boldest ventures to emerge from the modern recording industry. If that is a bigger concept than one, small-minded beetling critic can handle, that's OK with me. I loved having my intellect entertained for once. :)

8)

That was very persuasive, Gurn. I have not even read the review of this guy, but you've convinced me. ;D

BTW, I think he hasn't correctly listened to his Schiff neither.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 11, 2012, 03:48:39 PM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on September 11, 2012, 03:17:05 PM
That was very persuasive, Gurn. I have not even read the review of this guy, but you've convinced me. ;D

BTW, I think he hasn't correctly listened to his Schiff neither.

Ah, yes, but preaching to the choir, I'm afraid, ALF. :D

I haven't heard Schiff's Haydn so am in no position to criticize it. I do like McCabe and Brendel though. Not more than Staier, Schornsheim or (yes) Beghin though. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on September 11, 2012, 04:56:26 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 11, 2012, 03:48:39 PM
Ah, yes, but preaching to the choir, I'm afraid, ALF. :D

I haven't heard Schiff's Haydn so am in no position to criticize it. I do like McCabe and Brendel though. Not more than Staier, Schornsheim or (yes) Beghin though. :)

8)

Cool that we have choices. McCabe and whoever is tickling the ivories in the brick set have made me quite happy. I just may need to spin some Papa tonight. Hmmmm....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 11, 2012, 05:35:22 PM

Quote from: Bogey on September 11, 2012, 04:56:26 PM
Cool that we have choices. McCabe and whoever is tickling the ivories in the brick set have made me quite happy. I just may need to spin some Papa tonight. Hmmmm....

That's Oort & Friends, Bill. I agree, that is another nice set, I think it is 5 different keyboardists, but all nicely entertaining. A night shouldn't pass without at least a modicum of Haydn. Just sayin'.... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on September 11, 2012, 05:37:32 PM

(* chortle *)

G'night, gents!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on September 11, 2012, 05:54:02 PM

Goodnight, Karl. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 12, 2012, 11:47:50 AM

Despite having been deprived for a long while of a couple of disks, even to the point of one of my Hausmates razzing me about it, through a series of coincidences this week I was finally able to acquire Vols 5 & 6 of the String Trios by the Vienna Philharmonia Trio on Camerata. Greatly looking forward to their arrival early next week. There just aren't enough string trio recordings out there, and it is with mixed feelings that I can now say "I have all 8 of them"... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on September 18, 2012, 10:46:37 AM

Not often do I post here in the Haus, but I listen to "Papa" all the time. Well, some (quite a good bit) every week, anyway.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 18, 2012, 10:48:22 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on September 18, 2012, 10:46:37 AM
Not often do I post here in the Haus, but I listen to "Papa" all the time. Well, some (quite a good bit) every week, anyway.

And that's all that really matters. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on September 18, 2012, 10:49:37 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 18, 2012, 10:48:22 AM
And that's all that really matters. :)

8)

Aye. There's a sort of Why didn't I start listening to more of this, earlier? vibe, which is more thrilling, than any matter of hand-wringing.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 18, 2012, 11:09:19 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on September 18, 2012, 10:49:37 AM
Aye. There's a sort of Why didn't I start listening to more of this, earlier? vibe, which is more thrilling, than any matter of hand-wringing.

My opinion is that if you are a fan of more modern music, but you want to listen to just one truly Classical composer for balance, then Haydn would be easily the first choice. Hell, 90% of all my listening is Classical Era, and he's still my first choice! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 18, 2012, 11:16:31 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 18, 2012, 11:09:19 AM
My opinion is that if you are a fan of more modern music, but you want to listen to just one truly Classical composer for balance, then Haydn would be easily the first choice. Hell, 90% of all my listening is Classical Era, and he's still my first choice! :)

8)

Isn't Michael swell? :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on September 18, 2012, 11:19:35 AM

(* eighteenth-century rimshot *)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 18, 2012, 11:23:17 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 18, 2012, 11:16:31 AM
Isn't Michael swell? :)

Yes, actually, he is. I was lumping the 2 Haydn's together when I wrote that.... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on September 18, 2012, 11:56:59 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 11, 2012, 01:41:44 PM
So I sit here, up late, listening to the second disc in a row from this set - the Op 76 String Quartets.

Darn...I was sure it would be Quatuor Mosaïques. Need a respite from a world rapidly going madder every day? Haydn 4tets to the rescue!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 22, 2012, 02:11:17 PM

Quote from: DavidRoss on September 18, 2012, 11:56:59 AM
Darn...I was sure it would be Quatuor Mosaïques. Need a respite from a world rapidly going madder every day? Haydn 4tets to the rescue!

So true. And the Op 76 are at the top of the heap when it comes to 'sanity music'! :)

I like the Mosaiques take on Op 76, but my favorites are these (sorry, David, yet another hard-to-find-but-worth-the-effort disk);

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKuijken4tetOp76cover-1.jpg)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnMosaiquesvol2cover.jpg)

Actually, my final playlist for Op 76 includes some from both of these sets. Tough choices!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 22, 2012, 02:28:33 PM

Getting a bit closer to having all of the Masses that have been recorded using period instruments. I got these 3 in today's mail. In both cases they represent what appears to be the complete efforts of each of these 2 bands in the Mass arena;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnAAMHob22_1456_zps58d15e3a.jpg)
Academy of Ancient Music (- Hogwood!)

and

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnTheresienmessePinnockcover_zpse53b7f0d.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnNelsonMassPinnockcover_zps00a414e4.jpg)

Pinnock and Company.

I haven't listened to them yet (they only arrived ~3 hours ago!) but I did have questions for the Haus.

Taken along with these, are these the only PI Haydn Masses you are aware of?

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHarnoncourtMassescover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Hickoxmasses.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnWeilMassesCompletecover-1.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/51Yh1Av-J4L.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnGardinerSchopHarmonmassescover_zps18661ac9.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnGardinerNelsonTheresamassescover_zps1b90a4d6.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnGardinerHeiligPaukenmassescover_zpsf4ef5024.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/51Y2BzSGnX3L_zpsfb2f1c07.jpg)

Anyway, this is essentially what I have now, and would be interested to expand it if other possibilities come along. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on September 22, 2012, 02:42:40 PM

You didn't mention these? :)

[asin]B000024SWK[/asin]
[asin]B0000260FB[/asin]
[asin]B000001TYT[/asin]

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 22, 2012, 02:45:18 PM

Quote from: Que on September 22, 2012, 02:42:40 PM
You didn't mention these? :)

[asin]B000024SWK[/asin]
[asin]B0000260FB[/asin]
[asin]B0000665YI[/asin]

Q

No, indeed not. And now that I'm aware of their existence, they shall be mine. Therein lies the value of asking questions! Thanks, amigo!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on September 22, 2012, 04:15:25 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 22, 2012, 02:11:17 PM
I like the Mosaiques take on Op 76, but my favorites are these (sorry, David, yet another hard-to-find-but-worth-the-effort disk);

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKuijken4tetOp76cover-1.jpg)

And what a bargain...it hasn't even reached $100 on the used record market yet!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 22, 2012, 04:42:11 PM

Quote from: DavidRoss on September 22, 2012, 04:15:25 PM
And what a bargain...it hasn't even reached $100 on the used record market yet!

Yeah, I know. The whole situation in the record business really sucks. I hunted for a couple of years for that, and then it came up on eBay once for $75. I wrote to the seller and told him that if he wanted to sell it right this minute I would offer him $35 and he took it. The fact that it had been up twice before already convinced him that he wanted too much for it. So I did well. But you know, just because someone is asking that much, doesn't mean they are getting that much. I wrote to a seller earlier this week about a biography of Haydn by David Wyn-Jones. It had been offered for the ludicrous price of $95 for over a year, and then a new seller came along who had 11 copies and asked $53. I still felt it was too much, and after 3 or 4 months (still had the 11 copies) I wrote this week and asked if he would sell me one for less than that. He replied "$39.98" and I bought it on the spot. The other 10 copies are still available for that price. No need to thank me. :D

In summary, I have done this dozens of times, and I will estimate that I have been successful 90% of the time. Just sayin'. :)

8)

PS - Don't'cha love the picture on the front of that disk? :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on September 22, 2012, 05:09:00 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 22, 2012, 04:42:11 PM
Yeah, I know. The whole situation in the record business really sucks. I hunted for a couple of years for that, and then it came up on eBay once for $75. I wrote to the seller and told him that if he wanted to sell it right this minute I would offer him $35 and he took it. The fact that it had been up twice before already convinced him that he wanted too much for it. So I did well.

Artfully scored, sieur!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 22, 2012, 05:12:59 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on September 22, 2012, 05:09:00 PM
Artfully scored, sieur!

Merci, mon ami. It is one of my prized disks, made all the sweeter by having extracted it from a hostile market, so to speak. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on September 22, 2012, 06:03:25 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 22, 2012, 02:28:33 PM
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnGardinerSchopHarmonmassescover_zps18661ac9.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnGardinerNelsonTheresamassescover_zps1b90a4d6.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnGardinerHeiligPaukenmassescover_zpsf4ef5024.jpg)

Totally off topic--
But here is solid evidence that Clint Eastwood is a Haydnisto. (Or maybe a Gardineristo, I suppose.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on September 22, 2012, 06:04:25 PM

(* chortle *)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 22, 2012, 06:07:27 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 22, 2012, 06:03:25 PM
Totally off topic--
But here is solid evidence that Clint Eastwood is a Haydnisto. (Or maybe a Gardineristo, I suppose.)

:D :D Ever since those disks came out I have been totally puzzled over what concept they were intended to convey. The Eastwood thing is actually perfectly adumbrated by these covers! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on September 23, 2012, 07:34:14 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 22, 2012, 04:42:11 PM
Yeah, I know. The whole situation in the record business really sucks. I hunted for a couple of years for that, and then it came up on eBay once for $75. I wrote to the seller and told him that if he wanted to sell it right this minute I would offer him $35 and he took it. The fact that it had been up twice before already convinced him that he wanted too much for it. So I did well. But you know, just because someone is asking that much, doesn't mean they are getting that much. I wrote to a seller earlier this week about a biography of Haydn by David Wyn-Jones. It had been offered for the ludicrous price of $95 for over a year, and then a new seller came along who had 11 copies and asked $53. I still felt it was too much, and after 3 or 4 months (still had the 11 copies) I wrote this week and asked if he would sell me one for less than that. He replied "$39.98" and I bought it on the spot. The other 10 copies are still available for that price. No need to thank me. :D

In summary, I have done this dozens of times, and I will estimate that I have been successful 90% of the time. Just sayin'. :)

8)

PS - Don't'cha love the picture on the front of that disk? :)

Says "Haydn" to me!

My older boy loves bargaining on Craig's List. He persistently lowballs sellers with the bargain price he's willing to pay and eventually it pays off much of the time, once folks realize they aren't going to get $100 for some white elephant and then decide getting rid of it for $10 is better than being stuck with it for nothing. Speaking of which ... I have a mint condition Tejano Boys polka album I might be persuaded to part with for only $29.99. Right up your alley, Gurn! ;)

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 22, 2012, 06:03:25 PM
Totally off topic--
But here is solid evidence that Clint Eastwood is a Haydnisto. (Or maybe a Gardineristo, I suppose.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 23, 2012, 08:12:19 AM

Quote from: DavidRoss on September 23, 2012, 07:34:14 AM
Says "Haydn" to me!

My older boy loves bargaining on Craig's List. He persistently lowballs sellers with the bargain price he's willing to pay and eventually it pays off much of the time, once folks realize they aren't going to get $100 for some white elephant and then decide getting rid of it for $10 is better than being stuck with it for nothing. Speaking of which ... I have a mint condition Tejano Boys polka album I might be persuaded to part with for only $29.99. Right up your alley, Gurn! ;)
;D

Well, I never used to do that, but lately things have gotten so out of hand that one can scarcely afford to pay the asking prices, especially of books. If you ran a search on eBay of "Haydn in Books" virtually every hit would be priced ~$100 and up. Even things I bought new last year for $25 are selling now for $100. It's just wrong. So you gotta dicker or suffer.

Tejano Polkas eh? Does it have a nice picture on the front? :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on September 23, 2012, 02:30:49 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 23, 2012, 08:12:19 AM
Tejano Polkas eh? Does it have a nice picture on the front? :D

Your call (de gustibus, and all that) ;)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51A-rsWHLBL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on September 24, 2012, 01:08:32 PM

Los muchachos tejanos!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 30, 2012, 03:33:32 PM

Here is a new book that you might enjoy to check out;

[asin]052189574X[/asin]

I got it early this last week and am nearly finished with my first reading now. David Wyn-Jones was also the editor of "Oxford Composer Companions: Haydn" which is the book that I relied heavily on for chronological information on compositions and actually a whole lot more. He would have a ways to go to take the place of H.C. Robbins-Landon, but it's hard to see anyone else on that trail so maybe so. :)

The book is rather on the slim side at 264 pages, but it is packed with biographical detail which is of the 'latest and greatest' sort. Since the previous biography of Haydn was Karl Geiringer's 1982 revision of his 1946 work ("Haydn: A Creative Life in Music"), this 2009 tome is very welcome indeed.

I learned a lot, here's one example:

Haydn bought a parrot in England that could talk quite fluently and named it Jako. He apparently had it until he died. I never heard a breath of that before. :D

Anyway, I already did the dickering for you (see above) and can tell you that Labyrinth Books in the AMP did me just fine. In this day and age, $40 for a hardcover book, even a small one, is about the best you can hope for. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 30, 2012, 04:10:06 PM

Hey Gurn - for a book of this length, I'm thinking $10 for an e-edition - :D

BUT, $98 Prime on Amazon & $40 on the MP (plus S/H) is ridiculous as you've already stated - not sure that I want to chuck out that dough to learn about a parrot? ;) ;D Dave

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 30, 2012, 05:07:21 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on September 30, 2012, 04:10:06 PM
Hey Gurn - for a book of this length, I'm thinking $10 for an e-edition - :D

BUT, $98 Prime on Amazon & $40 on the MP (plus S/H) is ridiculous as you've already stated - not sure that I want to chuck out that dough to learn about a parrot? ;) ;D Dave

Well, the $40 is a reasonable price, the $98 is ludicrous. I watched it sit there for several months at a much higher price before finally writing to them with an offer. The prices of books these days are intended to insure that only the wealthy have access to them... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 04, 2012, 06:59:17 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on October 04, 2012, 06:50:57 AM
Something new for me

[asin]B004G5ZPGE[/asin]

I have the big Brilliant box of these works but am always on the lookout for other recordings.

Oh, that's a good recording. It's rather early times in the baryton recording business, IIRC, but they do a nice job of it. Later on I'll give you a link if you would like to all of the baryton recordings. Many (most) of them are still available, like your Claves disk which I only got early this year. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 04, 2012, 07:28:46 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on October 04, 2012, 07:02:17 AM
Another complete set besides the Brilliant box? Or individual discs? In any event, I would like to have the link

I also found this which is very nice too,

[asin]B00400B1KY[/asin]

Not baryton, but I love these divertimenti.

No, there is no other complete set. But there are 8-10 single disks that cover a big range of the trios. If you like performer variety, you can make a nicely mixed cycle just using the Brilliant set for filling in the blanks. :)

I actually thought I had done a short essay here on baryton trios, but apparently I only wrote it in my mind... :-\

That Sans Souci disk is the one that I used as the exemplar in my survey. It is a fine disk. Some options are the Kuijkens (hard to get = expensive);

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnFluteTriosKuijkenscover.jpg)

and this nice disk by the Agora Trio;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnFluteTriosAgoracover.jpg)

but I wouldn't change from what you already have, it's very satisfactory. Nice music too! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on October 04, 2012, 07:54:18 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 04, 2012, 07:28:46 AM
I actually thought I had done a short essay here on baryton trios, but apparently I only wrote it in my mind... :-\

I remember this post (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg587139.html#msg587139), for instance, because that disc has been sitting on my wish-list since then. Some baryton discussion and disc recommendations to be found thereabouts.

Quote
Some options are the Kuijkens (hard to get = expensive);

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnFluteTriosKuijkenscover.jpg)

...

On offer, for less than 10 Pounds at Presto (and likely at MDT, EuropaDisc etc. as well). :)
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC30007

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 04, 2012, 08:26:56 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on October 04, 2012, 07:54:18 AM
I remember this post (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg587139.html#msg587139), for instance, because that disc has been sitting on my wish-list since then. Some baryton discussion and disc recommendations to be found thereabouts.

On offer, for less than 10 Pounds at Presto (and likely at MDT, EuropaDisc etc. as well). :)
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Accent/ACC30007

Ah yes, I remember that now. That's still a top-notch disk. I've seen it on eBay recently for less than $15 US, which is less than I paid. Ricercar disks are always expensive, in my experience. :)

I wonder if Accent have re-released that Kuijkens. It seems like the 2 disk set that I have was also available as 2 single disks. Anyway, it was long OOP and when I got it for $27 I was delighted. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 05, 2012, 04:36:13 AM

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Barytoncovers.jpg)

These are all of the baryton trio disks that I have managed to amass beyond the Brilliant disk. The only other one I know about (a new disk, not yet in the cart) is this one;

[asin]B005EYP9OY[/asin]

As with any other diverse group, they all have strengths and weaknesses. I would say that other than the Ricercar disk, which is essential, the others are luxury items, or especially for those who like to hear diversity of style in their music (Yes, Your Honor, the Defendant pleads 'guilty').

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 06, 2012, 02:28:43 PM

Quote from: DavidRoss on September 23, 2012, 07:34:14 AM
... I have a mint condition Tejano Boys polka album I might be persuaded to part with for only $29.99. ;D

I only collect the best, so I will pass....

(http://sctv.org/characters/shmenges/happywanderers.jpg)

.....but would you take $2 for it and you pick up this shipping, David? ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 06, 2012, 02:44:21 PM

(http://www.miamidoublereeds.com/Site/orecordings_files/Hadyn-Miami-wind-quintetsWebOpt.jpg)

The Miami Wind Quintet. Sandra Seefeld, flute; Andrea Ridilla, oboe; Michele Gingras, clarinet; Gregory Phillips, horn; John Heard, bassoon

With members of the The Prague Wind Quintet: Jurij Likin, oboe; vastimil Mares, clarinet; vladima Klanska, horn; Milos Wichterle, bassoon. Compact disk. Helicon 1043. Recorded May 20, 1998, Studio Domovina, Prague, Czech Republic.

The above has some Krommer on it as well....nothing wrong with that. However, what are your favorite Haydn "wind" discs that dispense with any strings or keyboards lending support.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2012, 03:00:45 PM

Bill,
How very extraordinary that you would post that question as I was preparing this post. Synchronicity at its finest! :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnWindWorksMarchescover.jpg)

I got this 2 disk set today. I won't jump out and say it's my favorite winds-only disk, but it has something that no other disk so far has: all the marches of Hob VIII, which you will recall if you are a regular reader of this thread that I have been whining about for the longest time!

Downsides:
1. Well, modern instruments (but very well played) And that only applies to me.

2. It's on Arion, a French label that isn't in common circulation here (which is why I didn't even know it existed til last week). I got it at BRO but found it totally serendipitously

3. It has a few (3) 'attributed to' works on it, although they are all very nice. That would be Hob II:D18, 43 & 46.

4. Liner notes were originally in French and the translation has its moments of amusement :D Also the author has coherency issues.

Upsides:

1. Did I mention it has all the marches on it? Except for the March for the Royal Society of Musicians (3bis) which is just a rewrite of the 'Prince of Wales' march anyway.

2. Has all the authentic Wind Sextets & the Hob II:14 for 2 Clarinets & 2 Horns, Haydn's first use of clarinets. Nice piece.

3. Has the separate introduction that he wrote for the Oratorio version of the "Seven Last Words" in a beautiful arrangement for wind octet.

Clearly a set worth having if you can get it at BRO prices like I did. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 06, 2012, 03:05:01 PM

http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Int%C3%A9grale-loeuvre-pour-instruments/dp/B004BHAQ4S/ref=sr_1_10?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1349564653&sr=1-10&keywords=haydn+arion

For sampling your disc.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2012, 03:56:43 PM

Quote from: Bogey on October 06, 2012, 03:05:01 PM
http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Int%C3%A9grale-loeuvre-pour-instruments/dp/B004BHAQ4S/ref=sr_1_10?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1349564653&sr=1-10&keywords=haydn+arion

For sampling your disc.

Very nice. Well, that's the thing that I've found out with other disks: once I know it exists, eventually (or sooner) I can find it. But as you can imagine, I've searched Amazon many, many dozens of times looking at Haydn disks and this one never popped up. That's the value of posting questions here. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 06, 2012, 04:27:04 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2012, 03:00:45 PM
Bill,
How very extraordinary that you would post that question as I was preparing this post. Synchronicity at its finest! :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnWindWorksMarchescover.jpg)

I got this 2 disk set today. I won't jump out and say it's my favorite winds-only disk, but it has something that no other disk so far has: all the marches of Hob VIII, which you will recall if you are a regular reader of this thread that I have been whining about for the longest time!..............

Gurn - wish that I had known about that 2-CD set above - just put in a 12 disc order @ BRO earlier this week and would have easily added this Haydn offering. BUT, I must ask what is included, i.e. may already own a lot of this material?

I have the London Wind Soloists (from the late 60s) on 2 oboes, 2 horns, & 2 bassoons doing HobII/15, 23, 7, D18, 3, G8, & D23 (the last attributed) - these are the Hoboken listings on the back cover.

Also own the Complete Early Divertimenti w/ Huss & Standage, a mixture of strings, winds, and the latter alone; 5-CD set - disc #2 are winds alone (HobII:3, 7, 14, 15, 23, 46; HobVIII:3, 3bis; disc #3 include HobII:8, 16, 17 & 24 (the latter 3 w/ strings).

SO, just curious if I already own the works on the recording you just posted, and even if so, is this French offering worth obtaining - the price is certainly right @ BRO! I'll appreciate your thoughts - thanks, as always - Dave :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnDivertimenti/348873594_jAXs4-O.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-pg525Nf/0/O/HaydnDivertimentiHuss.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2012, 04:38:21 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on October 06, 2012, 04:27:04 PM
Gurn - wish that I had known about that 2-CD set above - just put in a 12 disc order @ BRO earlier this week and would have easily added this Haydn offering. BUT, I must ask what is included, i.e. may already own a lot of this material?

I have the London Wind Soloists (from the late 60s) on 2 oboes, 2 horns, & 2 bassoons doing HobII/15, 23, 7, D18, 3, G8, & D23 (the last attributed) - these are the Hoboken listings on the back cover.

Also own the Complete Early Divertimenti w/ Huss & Standage, a mixture of strings, winds, and the latter alone; 5-CD set - disc #2 are winds alone (HobII:3, 7, 14, 15, 23, 46; HobVIII:3, 3bis; disc #3 include HobII:8, 16, 17 & 24 (the latter 3 w/ strings).

SO, just curious if I already own the works on the recording you just posted, and even if so, is this French offering worth obtaining - the price is certainly right @ BRO! I'll appreciate your thoughts - thanks, as always - Dave :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnDivertimenti/348873594_jAXs4-O.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-pg525Nf/0/O/HaydnDivertimentiHuss.jpg)

Dave,
Well, you aren't going to do anything beyond duplicate your Hob II material. The only reason to buy this set is the Marches. That was plenty of reason for me to spend $8, but it may not be for you, depends on your Coefficient of Completism (CoC). If your CoC is like mine, then you have already placed your supplemental order, including making up some other item you "need" in order to reach the $15 minimum.... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2012, 04:44:43 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on October 06, 2012, 04:36:09 PM
This recording only has one Haydn work - but it is a nicely programmed disc of Classical era music for wind quintet:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/512cczDzwjL._SS400_.jpg)

...and it's not really by Haydn. But what the heck, it's a nice piece (it is also on the disk I was writing about, it is Hob II:46, composer unknown) and the entire disk looks like a very nice hour of listening. I have the Mozart and Danzi, nice works. I would like to hear the Farkas and Takacs, so what the heck, I'll put it in my basket. Thanks for the tip. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 06, 2012, 04:53:08 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2012, 04:38:21 PM
Dave,
Well, you aren't going to do anything beyond duplicate your Hob II material. The only reason to buy this set is the Marches. That was plenty of reason for me to spend $8, but it may not be for you, depends on your Coefficient of Completism (CoC). If your CoC is like mine, then you have already placed your supplemental order, including making up some other item you "need" in order to reach the $15 minimum.... :D

Thanks Gurn for your prompt response - 2 discs devoted to Haydn's wind works is irresistible to me (as you likely already know - :D) - guess that I'll spend the next half hour or so to get up to a half dozen more BRO offerings to justify shipping to me! Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2012, 04:58:25 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on October 06, 2012, 04:53:08 PM
Thanks Gurn for your prompt response - 2 discs devoted to Haydn's wind works is irresistible to me (as you likely already know - :D) - guess that I'll spend the next half hour or so to get up to a half dozen more BRO offerings to justify shipping to me! Dave :)

:) Yeah, what the heck. Those guys really play well and the SQ is super (disk was released in 2008, made in early 2000's). I matched it up with that disk on Brilliant of Hummel's Piano Septets to bring me to the minimum. I already had the downloads, nice to get the media. That's a good disk. Just sayin'.... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 06, 2012, 05:58:30 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on October 06, 2012, 04:36:09 PM
This recording only has one Haydn work - but it is a nicely programmed disc of Classical era music for wind quintet:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/512cczDzwjL._SS400_.jpg)

I am with Gurn on this one. When it comes to chamber works, especially winds, I do not care if they put ten composers on there. Good music is good music. Thanks for the post....at $28 new for one disc, I will definitly have to look in the used/new column.

Played this one a bit ago....always wonderful:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnStringTriosvol4cover.jpg)

Gurn discussed it here:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=54.1720

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2012, 06:05:48 PM

Quote from: Bogey on October 06, 2012, 05:58:30 PM
I am with Gurn on this one. When it comes to chamber works, especially winds, I do not care if they put ten composers on there. Good music is good music. Thanks for the post....at $28 new for one disc, I will definitly have to look in the used/new column.

Played this one a bit ago....always wonderful:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnStringTriosvol4cover.jpg)

Gurn discussed it here:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=54.1720

Bill,
Nice disk! Did you happen to notice that I posted a couple of weeks ago that I have finally acquired disk 5 & 6 to complete that series? Of course, all the writing is in Japanese, but who cares? :) Anyway, I've been trying to learn more about the string trios, but published information about them is as scarce (or more scarce!) as recordings. :o Still, not giving up, just have to come up with a few more hundreds of dollars for more books.... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 06, 2012, 06:18:19 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2012, 06:05:48 PM
Bill,
Nice disk! Did you happen to notice that I posted a couple of weeks ago that I have finally acquired disk 5 & 6 to complete that series? Of course, all the writing is in Japanese, but who cares? :) Anyway, I've been trying to learn more about the string trios, but published information about them is as scarce (or more scarce!) as recordings. :o Still, not giving up, just have to come up with a few more hundreds of dollars for more books.... :-\

8)

Congrats! They can be very difficult to find and cost a pretty penny. I only have 3 and 4....I would love to complete the run. If you see any for a "song", let me know. I am not worried about the text. After all, we have you for that. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on October 09, 2012, 12:40:24 PM

Quote from: Bogey on October 06, 2012, 02:28:43 PM
I only collect the best, so I will pass....
(http://sctv.org/characters/shmenges/happywanderers.jpg)
.....but would you take $2 for it and you pick up this shipping, David? ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Rinaldo on October 13, 2012, 10:11:18 AM

OK. *deep breath*

I've got a question for you folks. Say I've finally mustered the courage to explore Haydn's output but.. where do I start? Which symphonies, which SQ's?

I've listened to The Creation about year ago and was thoroughly unimpressed. So far the only thing by Haydn that stayed in my ears was some of the barytone trios I've heard on a radio programme that led me to this disc

[asin]B0014BKH2A[/asin]
which I enjoy very much. I'm sure there's tons of knowledge to be extracted from this enormous thread but any quick tips on where to begin my Quest for Haydn™ would be most appreciated.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 13, 2012, 10:26:04 AM

Quote from: Rinaldo on October 13, 2012, 10:11:18 AM
OK. *deep breath*

I've got a question for you folks. Say I've finally mustered the courage to explore Haydn's output but.. where do I start? Which symphonies, which SQ's?

I've listened to The Creation about year ago and was thoroughly unimpressed. So far the only thing by Haydn that stayed in my ears was some of the barytone trios I've heard on a radio programme that led me to this disc

[asin]B0014BKH2A[/asin]
which I enjoy very much. I'm sure there's tons of knowledge to be extracted from this enormous thread but any quick tips on where to begin my Quest for Haydn™ would be most appreciated.

Rinaldo,
Well, I will make an inference about your taste based on your (super) liking of the baryton trios. I didn't start with symphonies, and I don't think a symphony recommendation is appropriate here either.

So, my suggestion is that you find a 2 disk set with the 6 string quartets of Opus 76. I could confidently recommend the Quatuor Mosaiques, but since I am not hung up on performers, and this music is so damned fine, I will say that virtually any version you get will be eye/ear-opening.

See how that works for you, and if you like, I am happy to share discovered treasures when it comes to Haydn. There are many dozens of them! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on October 13, 2012, 10:27:20 AM

Here is a great place to start:

[asin]B0000DETAX[/asin]

Ah--I see Gurn beat me to it (but with op 76, another superb choice)!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 13, 2012, 10:33:23 AM

Quote from: DavidRoss on October 13, 2012, 10:27:20 AM
Here is a great place to start:

[asin]B0000DETAX[/asin]

Ah--I see Gurn beat me to it (but with op 76, another superb choice)!

Yeah, I was torn there, David. Op 20 is a beauty. I went for the slam dunk though, since I don't know that much about what Rinaldo likes. It has always been my opinion that anyone who can't like Op 76 needs to give up on Classical Era music altogether. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on October 13, 2012, 10:36:38 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 13, 2012, 10:33:23 AM
Yeah, I was torn there, David. Op 20 is a beauty. I went for the slam dunk though, since I don't know that much about what Rinaldo likes. It has always been my opinion that anyone who can't like Op 76 needs to give up on Classical Era music altogether. :D

I happily defer to your judgment in all things Haydn. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Rinaldo on October 13, 2012, 10:47:41 AM

*scribbles down 20, 76*

Thanks guys!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 13, 2012, 11:09:42 AM

Quote from: DavidRoss on October 13, 2012, 10:36:38 AM
I happily defer to your judgment in all things Haydn. ;)

Frightfully kind of you, sir. :)

Quote from: Rinaldo on October 13, 2012, 10:47:41 AM
*scribbles down 20, 76*

Thanks guys!

You'll be pleased. Please let us know what you think. IMHO, Haydn is one of the very few composers that isn't an acquired taste. But it always helps to have a toehold on where to start when the oeuvre is 1000 works long. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 13, 2012, 05:01:37 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on October 13, 2012, 04:58:38 PM
My introduction to Haydn was this disc:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Wx1OlkzVL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

But just about any disc of his piano trios would be fine.

That's so unusual! That was my very first disk of piano trios too, that exact one! I heard the BAT on the radio and thought I would buy one of theirs, and that's what was in the store. It is excellent, a good choice for an intro, just as you say. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on October 13, 2012, 05:36:07 PM

Some recommended discs for the symphonies.

[asin]B000003CUK[/asin]

[asin]B001TKK39S[/asin]

The big box is a whole lotta Haydn at once, but is so cheap on the Marketplace that I think it's a no-brainer.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 13, 2012, 05:44:45 PM

Daverz,
I have the 101-104 disk by Mackerras/St. Lukes, and it is indeed a nice choice. I'll give this one consideration now, thanks to you. I've got a million 'Farewell's", but a good Hornsignal is worth the hunt (no pun, sorry). :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on October 13, 2012, 06:18:06 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 13, 2012, 05:44:45 PM
Daverz,
I have the 101-104 disk by Mackerras/St. Lukes, and it is indeed a nice choice. I'll give this one consideration now, thanks to you. I've got a million 'Farewell's", but a good Hornsignal is worth the hunt (no pun, sorry). :)

8)

I was more recommending these for starters, but by all means don't miss this Hornsignal. Be advised that Mack was one of those conductors who included every repeat. Forgivable when the playing is so lovely.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 13, 2012, 06:30:06 PM

Quote from: Daverz on October 13, 2012, 06:18:06 PM
I was more recommending these for starters, but by all means don't miss this Hornsignal. Be advised that Mack was one of those conductors who included every repeat. Forgivable when the playing is so lovely.

Oh, I take recommendations from anyone, even if not intended for me. :D Mack is my #1 MI conductor; pity he didn't do more Haydn. I'd'a been all over it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 13, 2012, 06:31:15 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on October 13, 2012, 06:26:07 PM
Yeh - it did not take me long to get the complete set and then another one, and one more ...

:)

There ya go; Lay's Piano Trios by J. Haydn... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mirror Image on October 13, 2012, 06:38:21 PM

So I bought Bernstein's Haydn set on Sony for a $1, what do you guys make of the music-making here? Is it on a high-level? I can't say I'm familiar with every symphony Haydn composed, but many years ago I listened to his London and Paris symphonies quite a bit. I bought the huge box of Dorati conducting when it was reissued and those seemed to be good, reliable performances. What do you think about Dorati's set, Gurn? For HIP performances, I heard Harnoncourt was hard to beat.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 13, 2012, 06:56:56 PM

Quote from: Mirror Image on October 13, 2012, 06:38:21 PM
So I bought Bernstein's Haydn set on Sony for a $1, what do you guys make of the music-making here? Is it on a high-level? I can't say I'm familiar with every symphony Haydn composed, but many years ago I listened to his London and Paris symphonies quite a bit. I bought the huge box of Dorati conducting when it was reissued and those seemed to be good, reliable performances. What do you think about Dorati's set, Gurn? For HIP performances, I heard Harnoncourt was hard to beat.

Lots of questions there, MI! I can't answer some of them because I don't know the particular recordings. Here's what I do though.

I never heard Bernstein with NYPO. I have an excellent disk of him with the VPO doing #88 & 92. I have to leave that to someone else beyond there.

I have some Dorati. The 'Paris' Double Decca is very nicely done. There again, the sound quality might not be up to your expectations. Most MI (oh, modern instruments in this usage) recordings are of the older variety and many of them suffer from poorer sound compared to newer recordings. That's just the way of things. If you are inclined towards those types of recordings, I have been told that the Solti/Cleveland London's are very nice.

If you want a PI set of symphonies, well, there isn't one that is complete. Harnoncourt does do a complete London set, but it is with the Concertgebouw, so not PI. His PI works with the Concentus Musicus Wien only go as late as the Paris set (worth having though!). I would recommend the Minkowski, but it is just bizarre enough that it would make a poor choice for a first set. I really don't know what choices I would make specifically for you. Kuijken is wonderful, but I fear you would feel that he was underpowered a little bit. Maybe not though. If you can get his Japanese box set at what you consider to be a good price;

[asin]B000EBDCUA[/asin]

As for the non-London ones, given what I know about you and what I know about the recordings, I think that Fischer on Brilliant is the right choice for you. It is on modern instruments, but no matter. The playing is excellent, idiomatic enough, historically correct and recorded in the same room in Esterháza that Haydn's own orchestra originally premiered them. When I have had voids in good PI performances, these are the ones I use to fill gaps. They are miles better than Dorati and especially that other new box on Sony (sorry, can't remember the guy's name).

Anyway, that's what I would do. Your mileage may vary, of course..... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mirror Image on October 13, 2012, 07:18:42 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 13, 2012, 06:56:56 PM
Lots of questions there, MI! I can't answer some of them because I don't know the particular recordings. Here's what I do though.

I never heard Bernstein with NYPO. I have an excellent disk of him with the VPO doing #88 & 92. I have to leave that to someone else beyond there.

I have some Dorati. The 'Paris' Double Decca is very nicely done. There again, the sound quality might not be up to your expectations. Most MI (oh, modern instruments in this usage) recordings are of the older variety and many of them suffer from poorer sound compared to newer recordings. That's just the way of things. If you are inclined towards those types of recordings, I have been told that the Solti/Cleveland London's are very nice.

If you want a PI set of symphonies, well, there isn't one that is complete. Harnoncourt does do a complete London set, but it is with the Concertgebouw, so not PI. His PI works with the Concentus Musicus Wien only go as late as the Paris set (worth having though!). I would recommend the Minkowski, but it is just bizarre enough that it would make a poor choice for a first set. I really don't know what choices I would make specifically for you. Kuijken is wonderful, but I fear you would feel that he was underpowered a little bit. Maybe not though. If you can get his Japanese box set at what you consider to be a good price;

[asin]B000EBDCUA[/asin]

As for the non-London ones, given what I know about you and what I know about the recordings, I think that Fischer on Brilliant is the right choice for you. It is on modern instruments, but no matter. The playing is excellent, idiomatic enough, historically correct and recorded in the same room in Esterháza that Haydn's own orchestra originally premiered them. When I have had voids in good PI performances, these are the ones I use to fill gaps. They are miles better than Dorati and especially that other new box on Sony (sorry, can't remember the guy's name).

Anyway, that's what I would do. Your mileage may vary, of course..... :)

8)

Excellent! Thanks for the information, Gurn. The PI Harnoncourt and Fischer may be my next Haydn purchases. Thanks again. :) By the way, I've been enjoying the box set of concerti released on Naxos. Those violin concerti Haydn wrote are outstanding.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Rinaldo on October 13, 2012, 08:52:17 PM

Just a quick stop after I've listened online to the Mosaïques playing Op. 76 no. 1.

I hereby attest that my mind was utterly blown.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on October 14, 2012, 12:00:39 AM

Quote from: Rinaldo on October 13, 2012, 08:52:17 PM
I hereby attest that my mind was utterly blown.

In a good way, we hope!

PS Op.76 was my introduction to Haydn. The Kodaly Quartet on cassette, when I was a teenager.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Rinaldo on October 14, 2012, 05:02:07 AM

Quote from: orfeo on October 14, 2012, 12:00:39 AMIn a good way, we hope!

In the best way possible – by the finale, I was dancing around the room. Now off to explore the rest of Op. 76! I think I've just found my autumn gloom remedy.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 14, 2012, 06:10:39 AM

Quote from: Mirror Image on October 13, 2012, 06:38:21 PM
So I bought Bernstein's Haydn set on Sony for a $1, what do you guys make of the music-making here? Is it on a high-level?

Yes, a superb level. It's "juicier" than a HIP survey, but also nervier and more energetic than is typical for a "big[ger] band" account. As with a number of Lenny projects, entirely convincing in execution, but not a template for general interpretation.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 14, 2012, 06:15:02 AM

Quote from: Mirror Image on October 13, 2012, 06:38:21 PM
So I bought Bernstein's Haydn set on Sony for a $1, what do you guys make of the music-making here? Is it on a high-level? I can't say I'm familiar with every symphony Haydn composed, but many years ago I listened to his London and Paris symphonies quite a bit.

Bernstein's Paris symphonies are my second favorite, my favorite being Harnoncourt. They are both of the highest caliber. You chose well imho.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2012, 06:18:14 AM

Quote from: Mirror Image on October 13, 2012, 07:18:42 PM
Excellent! Thanks for the information, Gurn. The PI Harnoncourt and Fischer may be my next Haydn purchases. Thanks again. :) By the way, I've been enjoying the box set of concerti released on Naxos. Those violin concerti Haydn wrote are outstanding.

You are most welcome. Don't look further than this for the Harnoncourt PI (non-London) symphonies:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHarnoncourtSymphoniescover.jpg)

Finding them individually is tough. If you want to try his Concertgebouw Londons this box is the way to go:

[asin]B001AMG7I6[/asin]

Otherwise you will be searching out single disks until the cows come home!

I'm delighted that you are enjoying those concertos. You know, he is on the border between Baroque and what the concerto became after Mozart changed it forever with his piano concertos. As a result, not all of them have gotten the love they deserve. The exceptions being his 1st cello concerto and his trumpet concerto, both of which are so outstanding that they surpass the expectations of any age. I find the violin concertos to be quietly outstanding and can only think that his personal violinist, Luigi Tomasini for whom they were written, must have been a fine fiddler!

Cheers, enjoy!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2012, 06:22:58 AM

Quote from: Rinaldo on October 13, 2012, 08:52:17 PM
Just a quick stop after I've listened online to the Mosaïques playing Op. 76 no. 1.

I hereby attest that my mind was utterly blown.

0:)

I'm delighted. And as much as I revel in #1, IMO #2 is even better. There isn't a weak spot in the entire set, actually. This is the major instrumental effort of the post-London years. He never completed Op 77/103, and the Trumpet Concerto, outstanding as it is, is merely a one-off novelty for him. But Op 76 is the instrumental Crown Jewel of his old age.

Cheers,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2012, 06:25:27 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 14, 2012, 06:10:39 AM
Yes, a superb level. It's "juicier" than a HIP survey, but also nervier and more energetic than is typical for a "big[ger] band" account. As with a number of Lenny projects, entirely convincing in execution, but not a template for general interpretation.

Quote from: DavidW on October 14, 2012, 06:15:02 AM
Bernstein's Paris symphonies are my second favorite, my favorite being Harnoncourt. They are both of the highest caliber. You chose well imho.

Thanks, guys. I simply didn't know. Now I'm glad I do. Maybe I'll find a bargain on it like MI did and snap it up myself. :) You already know how I feel about his VPO 88 & 92...

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2012, 06:36:37 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on October 14, 2012, 06:31:49 AM
This set is also very good:

[asin]B0036FOV4W[/asin]

The Adam Fischer set is also very good and was my first complete set.

Yes, it's very good indeed. I hesitated to recommend it to a newcomer to the works because of the various little surprises that Minkowski has in his bag. It would be a great second set though, especially if one goes with Harnoncourt/Concertgebouw for the first 'toe in the water', don't you think? That #94 always makes me laugh, although a lot of the more conservative folks I know take offense. ::)

Interesting that we have so many Haydn recordings in common. Needless to say, Fischer was MY first complete set also, although I darn near had a complete set made of singles before that one came along. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2012, 06:50:07 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on October 14, 2012, 06:43:58 AM
You know, I've heard that about his recording, but it has never bothered me - sure, the first time, but it is a small thing, and as you say, a funny touch.

I think the 'Military' from this set is very nice. It is the one I chose for my permanent playlist in my essays. I feel like he hits everything just right. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mirror Image on October 14, 2012, 07:07:27 AM

By the way, Gurn, I picked up Haroncourt's set of Paris Symphonies on Deutsche Harmonia Mundi for $1 last night. Can't wait to hear these. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2012, 07:09:47 AM

Quote from: Mirror Image on October 14, 2012, 07:07:27 AM
By the way, Gurn, I picked up Haroncourt's set of Paris Symphonies on Deutsche Harmonia Mundi for $1 last night. Can't wait to hear these. :)

How in hell did you manage that? That 3 disk set has been going for at least $25 since the day it was released. Good on you though! I think he brings new life to these works. Not like they aren't already ass-kicking, but he puts the cherry on top, so to speak. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on October 14, 2012, 07:23:36 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2012, 07:09:47 AM
How in hell did you manage that?

Not following the news, eh? ;)

Mass mis-pricing on the part of AMP seller (formerly blowitoutahere). Almost everything -- and I mean almost everything in the inventory regardless of number of discs and label -- was up for $1. Now the storefront is missing from Amazon's website. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2012, 07:27:50 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on October 14, 2012, 07:23:36 AM
Not following the news, eh? ;)

Mass mis-pricing on the part of AMP seller (formerly blowitoutahere). Almost everything -- and I mean almost everything in the inventory regardless of number of discs and label -- was up for $1. Now the storefront is missing from Amazon's website. ;D

Yeah, I saw the talk, but no one would mention the name of the seller. Well, so it goes; I bought a pisspot full of disks from them over the years. Despite the name they were a good reliable seller, at least for me. The question of course will be whether all that stuff shows up or not. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on October 14, 2012, 07:34:15 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2012, 07:27:50 AM
Yeah, I saw the talk, but no one would mention the name of the seller.

They must be the heirs apparent of the Dark Lord. Of course, Connor and Scarpia later revealed the name.

QuoteThe question of course will be whether all that stuff shows up or not. :)
8)

Precisely.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mirror Image on October 14, 2012, 07:57:06 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2012, 07:09:47 AM
How in hell did you manage that? That 3 disk set has been going for at least $25 since the day it was released. Good on you though! I think he brings new life to these works. Not like they aren't already ass-kicking, but he puts the cherry on top, so to speak. :)

8)

What Opus said: a price mis-matching spectacle swept across the i-deals store (aka Blowitoutahere). I bought 109 recordings total and I'm only counting the box sets as one. So, yeah, pretty incredible this happened.

I do look forward to hearing Harnoncourt's Paris performances. He's such a good conductor and I respect his work a lot.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on October 14, 2012, 02:38:30 PM

Quote from: Mirror Image on October 14, 2012, 07:07:27 AM
By the way, Gurn, I picked up Haroncourt's set of Paris Symphonies on Deutsche Harmonia Mundi for $1 last night. Can't wait to hear these. :)

That's one I didn't see but would have snagged if I had!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2012, 02:44:30 PM

Quote from: DavidRoss on October 14, 2012, 02:38:30 PM
That's one I didn't see but would have snagged if I had!

Me too, if I didn't already have it... 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 15, 2012, 04:14:40 AM

Good morning, Gurn! Just wanted generally to thank you for your championing of "Papa," which in time brought me into the Haus.

Might bring In Search of Haydn down south to watch with my brother . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2012, 04:25:57 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 15, 2012, 04:14:40 AM
Good morning, Gurn! Just wanted generally to thank you for your championing of "Papa," which in time brought me into the Haus.

Might bring In Search of Haydn down south to watch with my brother . . . .

It has been totally my pleasure. The fact that some other folks have derived pleasure from such wonderful music is a dividend I hadn't counted on; always the best kind! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 16, 2012, 06:13:30 AM

Well, and I am re-motivated to do something about all these Fischer symphonies discs to which I've not yet listened!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on October 16, 2012, 06:19:14 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 16, 2012, 06:13:30 AM
Well, and I am re-motivated to do something about all these Fischer symphonies discs to which I've not yet listened!

And so you have!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 16, 2012, 06:23:41 AM

Wind Divertimenti, Marches, et al - for those who like their Haydn a little windy! ;D

Duplicates much in my other recordings of these works, but nice compact 2-disc set and another BRO bargain - brought to my attention by Gurn a half dozen pages or so back in this thread. Yes, period instruments would have been of interest (but I have other recordings that fulfill that requirement) and the English translation of the French line notes can be bemusing, but not a problem. Dave :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-pcb74bC/0/O/HaydnKomives.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 16, 2012, 06:42:01 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on October 16, 2012, 06:23:41 AM
Wind Divertimenti, Marches, et al - for those who like their Haydn a little windy! ;D

Duplicates much in my other recordings of these works, but nice compact 2-disc set and another BRO bargain - brought to my attention by Gurn a half dozen pages or so back in this thread. Yes, period instruments would have been of interest (but I have other recordings that fulfill that requirement) and the English translation of the French line notes can be bemusing, but not a problem. Dave :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-pcb74bC/0/O/HaydnKomives.jpg)

But I had never even heard most of the marches before, except as keyboard reductions, so that was the cool part for me. That 'Hungarian National March' was especially nice. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 16, 2012, 07:34:29 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 16, 2012, 06:42:01 AM
But I had never even heard most of the marches before, except as keyboard reductions, so that was the cool part for me. That 'Hungarian National March' was especially nice. :)

Agree - there certainly is some 'new' stuff for me and plan to do a second listening today and have compared w/ my other recordings to determine the differences, for those interested; the older ones owned are shown below w/ the London Wind Soloists(LWS), 1 disc and Huss/Haydn Sinfonietta Wien (HSW), 5 discs - these are on period instruments.

The LWS recording has 7 divertimenti, 5 of which appear on the first disc of the Avie 2-CD set, so 2 extra on LWS (H.II:G8 & H.II:D23).

The HSW also duplicates 5 divertiment of that first Avie disc, and of course w/ 5 CDs has many more recordings included!

BUT, the 2nd Avie disc is pretty much a 'new' addition for me (just 2 duplications), and as Gurn has stated many of these are the Marches (all but one w/ H.VII numbers); that disc also includes 2 divertimenti sans H. & 2 divertimenti from H.II:43 & 46.

SO, for those wanting some of these works, the Avie 2-CD set is certainly an inexpensive introduction on modern instruments; for a contrasting PI addition of the divertimenti, then the 1-disc LWS is recommended; the 5-disc HSW has a LOT of music but only 2 of the marches. Hope this helps - Dave :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/HaydnDivertimenti/348873594_jAXs4-O.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-pg525Nf/0/O/HaydnDivertimentiHuss.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 16, 2012, 07:41:38 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 16, 2012, 08:12:51 AM

The 102 is very fine, but 89 and 105 are the real gems on this disc, and both a more pressing need. In fact, Fey's is my first 105 on CD.

Sarge

Sarge, do you have the Fischer cycle? If you do, it was too bad that they did not include with it (at least I believe they did not) what is deemed the 105 as it is included by Fischer in the big brick from Brilliant. However, in the brick set it is titled Sinfonia Concertante in B flat major for Violin, Cello, Oboe, and Bassoon. Maybe I missed it, but I thought 104 capped it. I am listening to the Sifonia right now and it does sound like a symphony.....but wait, here come the solo instruments. However, it does carry the Hob I:105....is it a hybrid....either way, very nice piece.

OK, your turn, Gurn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 16, 2012, 08:01:13 PM

Quote from: Bogey on October 16, 2012, 07:41:38 PM
Sarge, do you have the Fischer cycle? If you do, it was too bad that they did not include with it (at least I believe they did not) what is deemed the 105 as it is included by Fischer in the big brick from Brilliant. However, in the brick set it is titled Sinfonia Concertante in B flat major for Violin, Cello, Oboe, and Bassoon. Maybe I missed it, but I thought 104 capped it. I am listening to the Sifonia right now and it does sound like a symphony.....but wait, here come the solo instruments. However, it does carry the Hob I:105....is it a hybrid....either way, very nice piece.

OK, your turn, Gurn.

The Brilliant 100 CD Symphony box, which includes the Fischer cycle, has it on the same CD as Symphonies 91 and 92, with the same title as the big Brick.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 16, 2012, 08:05:49 PM

Why is it not in this set?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51L3NY-n5xL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Might as well had included it like they did in my brick set.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 16, 2012, 11:13:38 PM

Quote from: Bogey on October 16, 2012, 07:41:38 PM
Sarge, do you have the Fischer cycle? If you do, it was too bad that they did not include with it (at least I believe they did not) what is deemed the 105 as it is included by Fischer in the big brick from Brilliant. However, in the brick set it is titled Sinfonia Concertante in B flat major for Violin, Cello, Oboe, and Bassoon. Maybe I missed it, but I thought 104 capped it. I am listening to the Sifonia right now and it does sound like a symphony.....but wait, here come the solo instruments. However, it does carry the Hob I:105....is it a hybrid....either way, very nice piece.

I don't own the entire Fischer set, just parts bought in order to plug gaps in my collection. The box with 21-39 also includes Hob.107 and 108 (listed as Symphonies A and B) but not 105. As I said in the Purchase thread, Fey's 105 is the first I have on CD (I have Böhm's on LP). It is a Sinfonia Concertante, not a symphony. (It was composed in London 1792 as a display piece for Salomon and friends.) I don't know why it was given that Hob. number. The liner notes to the Fey performance are stylistically Germanic, i.e., dense and offering little practical information. Perhaps Gurn has the answer.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 17, 2012, 02:14:32 AM

Quote from: Bogey on October 16, 2012, 08:05:49 PM
Why is it not in this set?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51L3NY-n5xL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Might as well had included it like they did in my brick set.

Good morning, Bill!

I'm sure you've checked it through (big though the Brick be) . . . but it seems odd to me that such a late work, especially, should be "dropped" from the Brick

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2012, 04:44:33 AM

Quote from: Bogey on October 16, 2012, 07:41:38 PM
Sarge, do you have the Fischer cycle? If you do, it was too bad that they did not include with it (at least I believe they did not) what is deemed the 105 as it is included by Fischer in the big brick from Brilliant. However, in the brick set it is titled Sinfonia Concertante in B flat major for Violin, Cello, Oboe, and Bassoon. Maybe I missed it, but I thought 104 capped it. I am listening to the Sifonia right now and it does sound like a symphony.....but wait, here come the solo instruments. However, it does carry the Hob I:105....is it a hybrid....either way, very nice piece.

OK, your turn, Gurn.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 16, 2012, 11:13:38 PM
I don't own the entire Fischer set, just parts bought in order to plug gaps in my collection. The box with 21-39 also includes Hob.107 and 108 (listed as Symphonies A and B) but not 105. As I said in the Purchase thread, Fey's 105 is the first I have on CD (I have Böhm's on LP). It is a Sinfonia Concertante, not a symphony. (It was composed in London 1792 as a display piece for Salomon and friends.) I don't know why it was given that Hob. number. The liner notes to the Fey performance are stylistically Germanic, i.e., dense and offering little practical information. Perhaps Gurn has the answer.

Sarge

Well, I know a lot about the piece, but can only speculate on why Hoboken included it with the symphonies. Sinfonia concertante is clearly not a symphony, the closest genus I can place it in is concerto grosso. My speculation is that he put it with the symphonies because it was one-of-a-kind and there was really nowhere else to reasonably put it.

In 1792, Haydn's second season in London, the Professional Concert (or The Professors, as Haydn called them) were trying like hell to compete with the Salomon Concert Series. So they brought Ignaz Pleyel over from Paris where he was very successful both as a composer and a flourishing music publisher. He was also a former and long time student of Haydn, and the premise was that he would put on some works that would enable a butt-kicking, as it were. In the event, Haydn and Pleyel renewed their long-standing friendship instead of being rivals, but one of the more pleasant outcomes of the affair was that, since Pleyel specialized in the particularly French specialty of sinfonies concertante, Haydn decided to write one for performance in a concert that was, like a week or two away! He did it successfully, of course, and this Bb little gem is the result.

Hoboken lists 108 symphonies, by the way.

105 is this work

106 is a single movement overture which turned out to be the overture to the opera La Pescatrici which the opera had been lost. When much of it was found, the overture was with it. So it had a Hob 28 number too, and should have a Hob 1a number, but I guess that's excessive.

107 is Symphony A in Bb

108 is Symphony B also in Bb.

I can write more on those two works if anyone is interested and I'm not at work. They are both on Fischer too, they were composed far longer ago, the late 1750's.

Hope that helped. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 17, 2012, 04:53:15 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2012, 04:44:33 AM
Well, I know a lot about the piece, but can only speculate on why Hoboken included it with the symphonies. Sinfonia concertante is clearly not a symphony, the closest genus I can place it in is concerto grosso. My speculation is that he put it with the symphonies because it was one-of-a-kind and there was really nowhere else to reasonably put it.

Better sense to include it with the symphonies (many of which feature concertante passages) than with the solo concerti.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2012, 05:04:26 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 17, 2012, 04:53:15 AM
Better sense to include it with the symphonies (many of which feature concertante passages) than with the solo concerti.

Yeah, that's what I think too. An underlying thing is that it has always been very closely associated with the London Symphonies, and is more easily remembered as an adjunct to them. But it's all grosso speculation... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 17, 2012, 05:08:22 PM

Bill (and others)

I just rechecked the Brilliant 100 CD Symphonies box to be sure.

Fischer did record the Sinfonia Concertante. In my set, it's on the same CD as Symphonies 91 and 92. Those who think they don't have it might want to check the equivalent CD in their set, and hopefully have a pleasant surprise.

BTW, Bernstein fans should note that he recorded 105 for DG; it's in the Bernstein Haydn Collector's Edition box. (Sarge, I thought you had that group of recordings?)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2012, 05:20:22 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 17, 2012, 05:08:22 PM
Bill (and others)

I just rechecked the Brilliant 100 CD Symphonies box to be sure.

Fischer did record the Sinfonia Concertante. In my set, it's on the same CD as Symphonies 91 and 92. Those who think they don't have it might want to check the equivalent CD in their set, and hopefully have a pleasant surprise.

BTW, Bernstein fans should note that he recorded 105 for DG; it's in the Bernstein Haydn Collector's Edition box. (Sarge, I thought you had that group of recordings?)

Thanks for that info, Jeffrey. I knew it was on there, but I couldn't remember what disk it was on so I just didn't mention it at all. I need to move some library materials into my office.... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2012, 05:38:42 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on October 17, 2012, 05:35:10 PM
I have been listening to the Violin Concertos, which have until now been fairly ignored by me :o and enjoying the heck out of them!

This recording especially:

[asin]B0062Z22DK[/asin]

:)

That's a great disk! I've always been a big Carmignola fan since he started in with his Vivaldi recordings. When we here first discovered that this would be released, I was quite excited about it. In the event, it was worth the wait, I think his Baroque background serves him wonderfully well in this early Haydn. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 17, 2012, 05:49:20 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 17, 2012, 05:08:22 PM
Bill (and others)

I just rechecked the Brilliant 100 CD Symphonies box to be sure.

Fischer did record the Sinfonia Concertante. In my set, it's on the same CD as Symphonies 91 and 92. Those who think they don't have it might want to check the equivalent CD in their set, and hopefully have a pleasant surprise.

BTW, Bernstein fans should note that he recorded 105 for DG; it's in the Bernstein Haydn Collector's Edition box. (Sarge, I thought you had that group of recordings?)

The same for the symphonies only set - same disc.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 17, 2012, 07:12:06 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 17, 2012, 02:14:32 AM
Good morning, Bill!

I'm sure you've checked it through (big though the Brick be) . . . but it seems odd to me that such a late work, especially, should be "dropped" from the Brick

It's in the brick (that's how I have it), but thought it was not in symphony set....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 17, 2012, 07:14:51 PM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 17, 2012, 05:49:20 PM
The same for the symphonies only set - same disc.

Cool. Sorry for all the confusion I caused. However, if confusion leads to discussing Haydn then it was worth it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 18, 2012, 01:50:39 AM

No need to apologize, Bill. I actually consider it something of a public service to cause a little confusion from time to time : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 18, 2012, 05:10:16 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 17, 2012, 05:08:22 PM
BTW, Bernstein fans should note that he recorded 105 for DG; it's in the Bernstein Haydn Collector's Edition box. (Sarge, I thought you had that group of recordings?)

No, I don't have that box (do have the Sony monster). Of Lenny's recordings in the DG box, I have individual CDs with 88, 92, 94 and the Missa in tempore belli (originally on Philips). No Lenny 105 in my collection.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/july2010/haydn889294bernstein.jpg) (http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/july2010/haydnpaukenmessebernstein.jpg)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 18, 2012, 05:48:13 AM

Quote from: Bogey on October 17, 2012, 07:14:51 PM
Cool. Sorry for all the confusion I caused. However, if confusion leads to discussing Haydn then it was worth it.

No problem. It is not on the cover, but it is on the disc cover for that disc:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51qXZAemK8L.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 18, 2012, 07:03:25 AM

Oh, this wicked, wicked, Haus! : )

Found Used - Very good copies of the Orpheus band playing n^os. 22, 44, 53, 63, 73, 77, 79 & 80.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 18, 2012, 03:24:58 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 18, 2012, 07:03:25 AM
Oh, this wicked, wicked, Haus! : )

Found Used - Very good copies of the Orpheus band playing n^os. 22, 44, 53, 63, 73, 77, 79 & 80.

Maybe there is a 105 on it, but they ain't sayin'. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on October 18, 2012, 03:35:27 PM

Another Haydn disc you should have:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61yKd4D%2BsNL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

if you can find it. May be the best Il Distrato ever. It was also re-issued on the short-lived Artemis label for all of 10 minutes.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mirror Image on October 18, 2012, 04:45:28 PM

This landed today:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61TDAL3FuUL._SL500_SS500_.jpg)

Should be good.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2012, 04:48:30 PM

Quote from: Mirror Image on October 18, 2012, 04:45:28 PM
This landed today:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61TDAL3FuUL._SL500_SS500_.jpg)

Should be good.

Yup, that it should! It is the happy combination of great music and great performance. Can't beat that at a bargain price! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 18, 2012, 05:47:25 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 18, 2012, 05:10:16 AM
No, I don't have that box (do have the Sony monster). Of Lenny's recordings in the DG box, I have individual CDs with 88, 92, 94 and the Missa in tempore belli (originally on Philips). No Lenny 105 in my collection.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/july2010/haydn889294bernstein.jpg) (http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/july2010/haydnpaukenmessebernstein.jpg)

Sarge

Hmmm.
The box I have is a 4 CD set.
Your CD of the three symphonies is CD 1.
CD 2 contains 105 and the Mass in temp.bel.
CDs 3 and 4 are devoted to Lenny's recording of Die Schopfung.

Which leads to the question--when and with what was his recording of 105 issued? Recording date is a month before the Mass.

I hesitate to recommend the recording of the Creation, btw--audio is a little muffled, and musically it's merely okay.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 18, 2012, 06:40:44 PM

Quote from: Mirror Image on October 18, 2012, 04:45:28 PM
This landed today:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61TDAL3FuUL._SL500_SS500_.jpg)

Should be good.

It's Harnoncourt....he can make the McDonald's jingle sound good.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mirror Image on October 18, 2012, 07:31:04 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2012, 04:48:30 PM
Yup, that it should! It is the happy combination of great music and great performance. Can't beat that at a bargain price! :)

8)

Yeah, I plan on listening to it next week sometime. I've got several new arrivals that are on the listening pile that need to be heard first. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mirror Image on October 18, 2012, 07:31:48 PM

Quote from: Bogey on October 18, 2012, 06:40:44 PM
It's Harnoncourt....he can make the McDonald's jingle sound good.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on October 19, 2012, 11:19:28 AM

Released and yet-to-be-released, depending upon the location. Lovely scene on the cover, no?
[asin]B007RL7094[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 19, 2012, 11:47:37 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 18, 2012, 05:47:25 PM
Hmmm.
The box I have is a 4 CD set.
Your CD of the three symphonies is CD 1.
CD 2 contains 105 and the Mass in temp.bel.
CDs 3 and 4 are devoted to Lenny's recording of Die Schopfung.

Which leads to the question--when and with what was his recording of 105 issued? Recording date is a month before the Mass.

I just checked an old Penguin guide from the eighties. 88 and 92 were originally released together on one CD. I assume 94 and 105 were on another. When they re-released 88 and 92 on a midprice CD, the one I bought, they included 94 but had no room for 105 and it disappeared for many years. They rectified that omission with the box set.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2012, 01:07:35 PM

Quote from: Opus106 on October 19, 2012, 11:19:28 AM
Released and yet-to-be-released, depending upon the location. Lovely scene on the cover, no?
[asin]B007RL7094[/asin]

Aha! Que gave us a heads up on it a few months ago, but no release date was given. October 30 just isn't that far off! Thanks for that. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on October 20, 2012, 04:44:29 AM

Dear Haydnistos,

I purchased the Dorati set of symphonies and it arrived yesterday, but without any booklet at all.

33 CDs and no booklet.

I bought this box:

(http://www.deccaclassics.com/imgs/s300x300/4485312.jpg)

I'm pretty sure this box set includes the famous notes by H.C. Robbins Landon, but I'd like to confirm this.

Thanks in advance.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on October 20, 2012, 04:58:39 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on October 20, 2012, 04:44:29 AM
Dear Haydnistos,

I purchased the Dorati set of symphonies and it arrived yesterday, but without any booklet at all.

33 CDs and no booklet.

I bought this box:

(http://www.deccaclassics.com/imgs/s300x300/4485312.jpg)

I'm pretty sure this box set includes the famous notes by H.C. Robbins Landon, but I'd like to confirm this.

Thanks in advance.

Don't know if they are famous but the notes are present in my box. About 3 pages for each 4 CDs.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on October 20, 2012, 05:15:54 AM

Quote from: mszczuj on October 20, 2012, 04:58:39 AM
Don't know if they are famous but the notes are present in my box. About 3 pages for each 4 CDs.

Do you have exactly this box or the posterior reissue?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on October 20, 2012, 05:53:40 AM

448 531-2 from 1996. There is information "booklet enclosed" on the box.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on October 21, 2012, 06:33:33 PM

Quote from: mszczuj on October 20, 2012, 05:53:40 AM
448 531-2 from 1996. There is information "booklet enclosed" on the box.

Thanks for this info.

Though my box set arrived without booklet, I have decided to keep it. Anyway, I found this digital version of the book The Symphonies Of Joseph Haydn (1955) by H.C. Robbins Landon:

http://archive.org/details/TheSymphoniesOfJosephHaydn

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on October 22, 2012, 04:31:45 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on October 20, 2012, 05:15:54 AM
... posterior reissue?

I'm scared to ask what this means. Nasty pictures cropping up.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on October 22, 2012, 06:39:34 AM

Quote from: The new erato on October 22, 2012, 04:31:45 AM
I'm scared to ask what this means. Nasty pictures cropping up.

;D

Posterior =coming after in time or order; later: a date posterior to the first Reform Bill.

More exactly this box set:

[asin]B001LMSOGI[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on October 22, 2012, 07:11:40 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on October 22, 2012, 06:39:34 AM
;D

Posterior =coming after in time or order; later: a date posterior to the first Reform Bill.

More exactly this box set:

[asin]B001LMSOGI[/asin]

I actually have it. In front of me!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on October 22, 2012, 07:15:18 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on October 22, 2012, 07:10:17 AM
I am seriously considering this ~

[Buchbinder's Haydn]

I just wish I could find it for less $$$

;)

Well, this must be your luck day, as Presto began its annual boxed sets discount (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/search.php?searchString=buchbinder%20haydn) today. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2012, 08:22:01 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on October 22, 2012, 08:18:15 AM
Now listening to this interesting recording of Haydn keyboard sonatas ~ Byron Schenkman plays Haydn on the haprsichord

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519mgJ7bmcL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Keyboard Sonata No. 12 in A major, Hob.XVI:12
Keyboard Sonata No. 19 in E minor, Hob.XVI:47bis
Keyboard Sonata (Partita) No. 16 in D major, Hob.XVI:14
Keyboard Sonata (Divertimento) No. 5 in G major, Hob.XVI:11
Keyboard Sonata No. 29 in E flat major, Hob.XVI:45

That's a nice one. I like his almost legato style on the harpsichord. Nice sounding instrument too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2012, 10:32:55 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on October 22, 2012, 09:54:48 AM
Continuing today's theme of Haydn on period instruments, I am now sampling this disc,

Richard Lester ~ Haydn, Six Keyboard Works played on Historic Fortepianos

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/511W86IIVRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Where do you sample those, Tonio? Do you stream stuff? Or are you dipping into your stash after all?

I like this disk a lot. His fortepianos are interestingly different from each other. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2012, 11:20:43 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on October 22, 2012, 10:47:01 AM
When I am at work I stream but my home library has much of what I listen to. I don't happen to own the Lester disc, however.

Ah. I don't get to stream anywhere; work won't let me and my home satellite doesn't care anything for streaming. FOr me it's pretty much buy it or lose it. :)

What did you think of Lester?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 22, 2012, 11:57:56 AM

Gurn, am I mistaken in thinking that ol' "Papa" is having a bit of fun with the horn in the 51^st Symphony?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2012, 12:10:37 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 22, 2012, 11:57:56 AM
Gurn, am I mistaken in thinking that ol' "Papa" is having a bit of fun with the horn in the 51^st Symphony?

You never make mistakes, Karl; you been to the big school!

A nice summary of the kernel of that, this from Wiki;

Symphony #51 in Bb
Sometimes described as "a concertante piece featuring the two horns, which are given parts of staggering difficulty." The third movement contains high notes for the first horn (including an f''' which is considered the highest note ever written for the horn) and the second, slow movement, contains very low notes for the second horn.

Haydn is actually considered as one of the top all-time writers for the horn, a situation which was abetted by the fact that for a period in the 1760's, he had probably the 4 greatest horn players in Europe in his band all at the same time. And even when he only had 2 horns, they were the best. So he made them work for it. If you love horns, you gotta love Haydn. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2012, 12:15:06 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on October 22, 2012, 12:12:47 PM
I like just about any fortepiano recording of Haydn, but his recording did not impress me more than Brautigam's or Schornsheim's. After hearing him play earlier music, I think his recordings of Scarlatti and Frescobald and other less well-knowns from those periods may be more of his thing.

Well, by those standards, Staier and Bilson are about the only ones who stand out above B & S. That's just for fortepiano though, I have some clavichord disks that really appeal to me on an entirely different level. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2012, 01:06:39 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on October 22, 2012, 12:35:55 PM
I would agree with you except that Staier has not recorded all the sonatas and the Bilson & Co. set is so hard to find I have given up on it (I must be thinking of Beethoven here - oops). I like it that Schornsheim used different instruments depending on the year the sonata was composed, I really like that, and consider that her edge over Brautigam. Beghin is another set that I like because of the choice of instruments, but there is something about his set that does not create in me the same kind of enjoyment I get from B & S. But his project is a phenomenal undertaking and I would not be without it.

Amen, Amen Amen.

Yes, that's Bilson's Beethoven. These are his only 2 Haydn disks that I am aware of;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardBilsonSchantzcover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardBilson4952cover.jpg)

Both well worth pursuing if you haven't already.

And you're also right about Staier; 3 disks and holding. At least he only played the fortepiano ones, so that is appropriate. I agree with you about Schornsheim. That is the true beauty of her cycle. It is also exactly the same reason that I prefer Trio 1790 over other trio cycles. The instruments are appropriate to teh music. What else is the point of period instrument performance??

Anyway, my thing with Bilson and Staier is strictly that I prefer their playing above all. I make no quibbles about that, it's a personal thing. :)

I think that Beghin is truly the closest we will ever hear to true period style. He has totally stripped away the accretions of Romantic performance style. The result is that it takes some getting used to in order to find the entertainment values that those stylistic choices add or subtract. Does that make sense? I know what I mean, but not necessarily how to express it. :-\ Anyway, I delight constantly in this box, pleased as hell to have it in-house. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 22, 2012, 01:23:12 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2012, 12:10:37 PM
You never make mistakes, Karl; you been to the big school!

A nice summary of the kernel of that, this from Wiki;

Symphony #51 in Bb
Sometimes described as "a concertante piece featuring the two horns, which are given parts of staggering difficulty." The third movement contains high notes for the first horn (including an f''' which is considered the highest note ever written for the horn) and the second, slow movement, contains very low notes for the second horn.

Haydn is actually considered as one of the top all-time writers for the horn, a situation which was abetted by the fact that for a period in the 1760's, he had probably the 4 greatest horn players in Europe in his band all at the same time. And even when he only had 2 horns, they were the best. So he made them work for it. If you love horns, you gotta love Haydn. :)

8)

Being a former Horn player is what drew me to Haydn, mainly No.31. But I almost cringe listening to No.51 with the thought of attempting to play it. But what a joy to hear it though. ;)

Of course, No.73 (Chase) has an exciting Horn call in the final movement.

Thanks for the info, Gurn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2012, 01:30:26 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 22, 2012, 01:23:12 PM
Being a former Horn player is what drew me to Haydn, mainly No.31. But I almost cringe listening to No.51 with the thought of attempting to play it. But what a joy to hear it though. ;)

Of course, No.73 (Chase) has an exciting Horn call in the final movement.

Thanks for the info, Gurn.

Cool, I didn't know that, Greg. My Dad was a horn player also. I wish I had chosen it over the trumpet, maybe I would still play.

Also #72. It was written at the same time as #31 and both use the great horn players. I know the number throws people off, they rather think that 72 & 73 are twins, but no. If you have that one, give it a listen. It's a treat too.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 22, 2012, 01:42:01 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2012, 01:30:26 PM
Cool, I didn't know that, Greg. My Dad was a horn player also. I wish I had chosen it over the trumpet, maybe I would still play.

Also #72. It was written at the same time as #31 and both use the great horn players. I know the number throws people off, they rather think that 72 & 73 are twins, but no. If you have that one, give it a listen. It's a treat too.

8)

Good call on No.72, Gurn.
I thoroughly enjoy Nos.6, 31 and 72 for the their use of solos.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2012, 04:34:26 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on October 22, 2012, 03:24:12 PM
I've heard both of these, but I think my favorite Bilson is his Schubert cycle. (Although his set of Mozart PC with Gardiner is also wonderful; and I just found his Beethoven cycle on MOG - so I'm going to finally delve into that.)

Amen, amen, Amen. :D

Interesting idea; so far his playing is striking me as more academic than I prefer, but that could just be a bias based on what I know about the project from the DVD. I do really like the set and agree with you about being pleased having it; and very happy that it was done at all!

Well, Bilson is probably my favorite fortepianist. Oddly, I don't have any of his Beethoven; I never ran across a reasonable deal on that cycle he did with his students (although the list of names itself should give a good idea of his stature!). But in addition to the lovely Mozart concerto cycle, I also have his Mozart solo keyboard cycle (on Hungaroton) which is a peach too. If I didn't have Badura-Skoda..... :) I agree about the Schubert, another gem. A couple of single disks, like the Cramer/Haydn/Dussek disk are worth a look too;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/BilsonHaydnCramerDussekcover.jpg)

Yes, I can understand the immediate reaction to Beghin as being academic. What I tried to do (successfully for myself) was to divorce that concept and instead extend the fantasy metaphor that the producers used to include myself in the room as the putative listener. So by making the here and now disappear, I was able to just be part of the music in the way that I believe that it was intended to be. I don't know that this would work for everyone; I'm a peculiar bastard even on a good day. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2012, 05:01:04 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 22, 2012, 01:42:01 PM
Good call on No.72, Gurn.
I thoroughly enjoy Nos.6, 31 and 72 for the their use of solos.

Yes, those include some of my favorites too. In addition, they are also very characteristic of the evolution of the symphony from its roots in the Italian concerto grosso, which incorporated obligatto solos for several instruments. You can see that in many of Haydn's early symphonies, where symphonic form wasn't 'written in stone' yet. You mention #6, but also its companions 7 & 8 have lovely solos. All three symphonies feature extensive solo passages for the wind, horn and strings, including unusual solo writing for the double bass and bassoon in the third movement of #6. Back in those days, it was common for virtuoso players to get a 'bonus' for playing something out of the ordinary in difficulty. Since Haydn was new to the band, and these were in fact his first symphonies for the Esterházy orchestra, by writing all these neat little passages he was making friends with the members of the orchestra. That's the kind of guy he was. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on October 22, 2012, 08:46:04 PM

I would love to see reissued those four Haydn discs, recorded by Paul Badura-Skoda on Astrée:

(http://pmcdn.priceminister.es/photo/Haydn-Joseph-Son-Pour-Le-Pianoforte-Vol-1-P-Badura-Skoda-CD-Album-353377730_ML.jpg)(http://pmcdn.priceminister.es/photo/Haydn-Joseph-Son-Pour-Le-Pianoforte-Vol-2-P-Badura-Skoda-CD-Album-353377830_ML.jpg)(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_250/MI0000/985/MI0000985148.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)(http://pmcdn.priceminister.es/photo/Haydn-Joseph-Son-Pour-Le-Pianoforte-Vol-4-Badura-Skoda-Pianoforte-CD-Album-353377930_ML.jpg)

Sonates et pièces pour le pianoforte
Contains: 4 CDs
Instrument: Hammerflügel Johann Schantz (ca 1790)
Recorded / Published: 1980-82 / -
Label / Number: Astrée E 7711 (NAÏVE),
Astrée E 7712 (NAÏVE), Astrée E 7713 (NAÏVE), Astrée E 7714 (NAÏVE)

CONTAINS:
I: Sturm und Drang (1767-1776)
II: Le style galant (1773-1779)
III: La maturité (1782-1790)
IV: L'apogée (1793-1797)

Unfortunately, at the moment, only his Haydn on Arcana is available.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 23, 2012, 04:14:41 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on October 22, 2012, 08:46:04 PM
I would love to see reissued those four Haydn discs, recorded by Paul Badura-Skoda on Astrée:

(http://pmcdn.priceminister.es/photo/Haydn-Joseph-Son-Pour-Le-Pianoforte-Vol-1-P-Badura-Skoda-CD-Album-353377730_ML.jpg)(http://pmcdn.priceminister.es/photo/Haydn-Joseph-Son-Pour-Le-Pianoforte-Vol-2-P-Badura-Skoda-CD-Album-353377830_ML.jpg)(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_250/MI0000/985/MI0000985148.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)(http://pmcdn.priceminister.es/photo/Haydn-Joseph-Son-Pour-Le-Pianoforte-Vol-4-Badura-Skoda-Pianoforte-CD-Album-353377930_ML.jpg)

Sonates et pièces pour le pianoforte
Contains: 4 CDs
Instrument: Hammerflügel Johann Schantz (ca 1790)
Recorded / Published: 1980-82 / -
Label / Number: Astrée E 7711 (NAÏVE),
Astrée E 7712 (NAÏVE), Astrée E 7713 (NAÏVE), Astrée E 7714 (NAÏVE)

CONTAINS:
I: Sturm und Drang (1767-1776)
II: Le style galant (1773-1779)
III: La maturité (1782-1790)
IV: L'apogée (1793-1797)

Unfortunately, at the moment, only his Haydn on Arcana is available.

I have seen only one of these, available on eBay. I got into a small bidding war over it, but lost out at $65. Disappointing, but maybe another opportunity will arise. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 25, 2012, 04:57:15 AM

Dafrazzanabit, Gurn: you knew Haydn would be a rabbit-hole! Don't play innocent with me . . . .

Now I shan't be content until I've got all those symphonies loaded onto the player . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 25, 2012, 05:30:16 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 25, 2012, 04:57:15 AM
Dafrazzanabit, Gurn: you knew Haydn would be a rabbit-hole! Don't play innocent with me . . . .

Now I shan't be content until I've got all those symphonies loaded onto the player . . . .

Well, it was lonely down here at the bottom of the hole all alone, I needed company. Willkommen, bienvenue, welcome! >:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 25, 2012, 05:46:24 AM

Well, obviously I am no less intimidated by the sheer scale of the œuvre; I am not acquiring the facility of after-recognition of a great many of the trios, quartets, even symphonies. Which in a way annoys the music student in me. Which I think is one of the reasons why I have adopted Haydn. I mean, the first reason is that the music is wonderful. But subconsciously I think that the larger part of the reasoning behind not getting to know the music, was (by virtue of the scale) the near-hopelessness of "complete" assimiliation of the material, in a way that is readily possible with (for instance) the nine Beethoven symphonies. But that's no reason to neglect "Papa." (I know, here in the Haus, we all know this by now.) Thus, the (sophomoric?) music student in me needed to let go of the precondition of complete re-recognition, and as a result, I can just love the music for itself . . . and to be sure, consume, digest and recall at a gradual pace, but without worrying about any fantastical end state of complete drop-the-needle Haydn recall.

Any of that make sense to a non-music student?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 25, 2012, 06:19:35 AM

London Symphonies w/ Harnoncourt & the gang from Amsterdam - new arrival and probably my 4th set of these works (plan to cull one out) - excellent & highly recommended here; now I still want to obtain the Kuijken performances (below, right) if ever re-released @ a decent price! :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-G6JxQqK/0/O/HaydnHarnoncourt.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51v%2B0QatwaL._SL500_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 25, 2012, 07:25:47 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 25, 2012, 05:46:24 AM
Well, obviously I am no less intimidated by the sheer scale of the œuvre; I am not acquiring the facility of after-recognition of a great many of the trios, quartets, even symphonies. Which in a way annoys the music student in me. Which I think is one of the reasons why I have adopted Haydn. I mean, the first reason is that the music is wonderful. But subconsciously I think that the larger part of the reasoning behind not getting to know the music, was (by virtue of the scale) the near-hopelessness of "complete" assimiliation of the material, in a way that is readily possible with (for instance) the nine Beethoven symphonies. But that's no reason to neglect "Papa." (I know, here in the Haus, we all know this by now.) Thus, the (sophomoric?) music student in me needed to let go of the precondition of complete re-recognition, and as a result, I can just love the music for itself . . . and to be sure, consume, digest and recall at a gradual pace, but without worrying about any fantastical end state of complete drop-the-needle Haydn recall.

Any of that make sense to a non-music student?

Karl,
I understand your dilemma here. For me it is a blessing, since I don't have a facility for remembering phrases and thus identifying music, I can plead scale as an issue. Works. for Mozart too. :) But the fact that I can practically pick something at random and be confident going in that it will be an fine piece of music in an idiom that I can relate to is a major factor in my appreciation of Haydn. The historiographical challenges are another. :)

So the short answer is 'yup, makes perfect sense to me'. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 25, 2012, 07:29:40 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on October 25, 2012, 06:19:35 AM
London Symphonies w/ Harnoncourt & the gang from Amsterdam - new arrival and probably my 4th set of these works (plan to cull one out) - excellent & highly recommended here; now I still want to obtain the Kuijken performances (below, right) if ever re-released @ a decent price! :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-G6JxQqK/0/O/HaydnHarnoncourt.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51v%2B0QatwaL._SL500_.jpg)

Dave,
I know you favor boxes if they exist, but I got tired of waiting for the box price to be 'decent' about 3 years ago, and so I started snapping up the 5 singles instead as I was able to find them. In the end, I got all 5 in excellent condition for an average price of $10/ea. The last time I checked the box it was $65, so maybe that's as low as it will go. If not, the singles are still available out there, you just have to search patiently. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 25, 2012, 07:41:57 AM

Guess what I discovered on the shelf? Franz Brüggen and the Orch of the 18^th Century playing the Paris symphonies . . . God bless friend Burchest's soul.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 25, 2012, 08:12:10 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on October 25, 2012, 07:42:48 AM
Re: Scale of output and recordings available -

I am often surprised at the number of posts on GMG where people have sufficient aural memory to recall and compare different recordings of the same work and declare fairly confidently one better than another, or say something like, "there's 11 others I like better".

Not only am I not interested in comparing recordings, that seems too much like a sporting event approach, but I would not feel comfortable doing it. It is so subjective that one person's (my) delight might be some else's bane. It is very hard for me to suggest one recording over another one since I tend to like them all for some reason and enjoy hearing any one of them. Say, e.g. Haydn symphonies - just about any recording is fine by me, except a conductor who brings a big-19th C.-orchestra approach to the music. Same for all classical era music.

I can tell someone what I like about a recording, but it has to be near in time to when I've heard it. But I can't compare it to another one unless I were to sit down right then and listen to them side by side, movement by movement - and I have zero interest in doing that kind of work.

My solution is to not worry about any of that stuff and put on a recording and sit back and enjoy it. Okay, I admit it, I don't aspire to write CD reviews. I can live with that.

:)

I could have written this. 0:)

For reference, just look at my Beethoven's 9th thread. Of the 90+ recordings I have of that work, I have found something positive to say about every one of them. Like you, San, I don't remember the specifics of recordings, but I do remember things (to use the LvB 9 example) like 'the chorus in this one was superb', or 'the tempo in the scherzo was really excellent in this one'. Best I can do, really.

If people can actually remember that sort of depth of detail on that scale, they have some sort of savant talent that I can never aspire to. As for comparisons, best I can say is "I liked this one and I didn't care for that one so much". BUt I'm happy for you if you liked that one. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 25, 2012, 08:27:41 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on October 25, 2012, 07:42:48 AM
Re: Scale of output and recordings available -

I am often surprised at the number of posts on GMG where people have sufficient aural memory to recall and compare different recordings of the same work and declare fairly confidently one better than another, or say something like, "there's 11 others I like better".

Not only am I not interested in comparing recordings, that seems too much like a sporting event approach, but I would not feel comfortable doing it. It is so subjective that one person's (my) delight might be some else's bane. It is very hard for me to suggest one recording over another one since I tend to like them all for some reason and enjoy hearing any one of them. Say, e.g. Haydn symphonies - just about any recording is fine by me, except a conductor who brings a big-19th C.-orchestra approach to the music. Same for all classical era music.

I can tell someone what I like about a recording, but it has to be near in time to when I've heard it. But I can't compare it to another one unless I were to sit down right then and listen to them side by side, movement by movement - and I have zero interest in doing that kind of work.

My solution is to not worry about any of that stuff and put on a recording and sit back and enjoy it. Okay, I admit it, I don't aspire to write CD reviews. I can live with that.

:)

Very interesting, and I am pleased that you have found your musical 'center' : ) William James-like, we might well write of The Varieties of Musical Experience . . . and while I find the discovery of the segments of overlap interesting (and even exciting), there's no call for anyone to draw any negative vibes from being at all otherwise in his musical experience to any other.

Always provided that one is not a putz, of course . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scarpia on October 25, 2012, 09:27:10 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on October 25, 2012, 07:42:48 AM
Re: Scale of output and recordings available -

I am often surprised at the number of posts on GMG where people have sufficient aural memory to recall and compare different recordings of the same work and declare fairly confidently one better than another, or say something like, "there's 11 others I like better".

Not only am I not interested in comparing recordings, that seems too much like a sporting event approach, but I would not feel comfortable doing it. It is so subjective that one person's (my) delight might be some else's bane. It is very hard for me to suggest one recording over another one since I tend to like them all for some reason and enjoy hearing any one of them. Say, e.g. Haydn symphonies - just about any recording is fine by me, except a conductor who brings a big-19th C.-orchestra approach to the music. Same for all classical era music.

I can tell someone what I like about a recording, but it has to be near in time to when I've heard it. But I can't compare it to another one unless I were to sit down right then and listen to them side by side, movement by movement - and I have zero interest in doing that kind of work.

My solution is to not worry about any of that stuff and put on a recording and sit back and enjoy it. Okay, I admit it, I don't aspire to write CD reviews. I can live with that.

:)

Agreed, and I have made similar comments here somewhere. I almost never make any effort to compare different recordings of the same piece, although for almost every piece I care about I have several, sometimes dozens. This is not motivated by a desire to find the "best" but by a desire to hear different aspects of the music and not "imprint" on one version. My goal is to find an ensemble of recordings that are as different from each other as possible.

When I read that this or that recording is 'better,' 'the best,' 'not as good,' etc, I am simply bewildered, and amazed that the writer thinks this conveys something. What I find interesting, and what I try to provide when I write about recordings that made an impression on me, are non-judgmental comments that refer to tangible properties of the performance or recording, i.e., is the performance fast or slow; aggressive or atmospheric; is the brass dominant or recessed; is the recording dry or reverberant; are the dynamics exaggerated or understated, etc. The best review is one where you could judge you would like to recording even though the reviewer didn't.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 25, 2012, 09:49:29 AM

Well said.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 25, 2012, 03:55:29 PM

Watching In Search of Haydn again this evening.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 25, 2012, 03:59:03 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 25, 2012, 03:55:29 PM
Watching In Search of Haydn again this evening.

Nice call. I should be; I'm working on my notes instead. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on October 26, 2012, 12:48:28 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on October 25, 2012, 07:42:48 AM
Re: Scale of output and recordings available -

I am often surprised at the number of posts on GMG where people have sufficient aural memory to recall and compare different recordings of the same work and declare fairly confidently one better than another, or say something like, "there's 11 others I like better".

Not only am I not interested in comparing recordings, that seems too much like a sporting event approach, but I would not feel comfortable doing it. It is so subjective that one person's (my) delight might be some else's bane. It is very hard for me to suggest one recording over another one since I tend to like them all for some reason and enjoy hearing any one of them. Say, e.g. Haydn symphonies - just about any recording is fine by me, except a conductor who brings a big-19th C.-orchestra approach to the music. Same for all classical era music.

I can tell someone what I like about a recording, but it has to be near in time to when I've heard it. But I can't compare it to another one unless I were to sit down right then and listen to them side by side, movement by movement - and I have zero interest in doing that kind of work.

My solution is to not worry about any of that stuff and put on a recording and sit back and enjoy it. Okay, I admit it, I don't aspire to write CD reviews. I can live with that.

:)

Yes, I could have written that as well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 26, 2012, 04:33:29 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 16, 2012, 06:13:30 AM
Well, and I am re-motivated to do something about all these Fischer symphonies discs to which I've not yet listened!

One stage of this is now complete: I've all of them loaded onto the external HD now!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 26, 2012, 04:39:46 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 25, 2012, 03:55:29 PM
Watching In Search of Haydn again this evening.

It being a weeknight and all, I hit pause just at the start of the Opera Period,.

So far the interviews are reinforcing my initial impressions, and gainsaying eyeresist's snark. To be sure, Manny Ax obviously forgets who brought him to the dance, and he winds up both jabbering about WAM and LvB more, and playing a substantial (and largely irrelevant) passage from a WAM pf concerto, where the best he can do for "Papa" is the coyly underprepared, "Well, virtually any of the sonata movements . . . ."

But Rousset, Baudet, Norrington, Hamelin (for only four instant examples) have their attention entirely on "Papa". eyeresist must have been half-asleep while viewing ; )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on October 26, 2012, 07:56:02 PM

.[asin]B00290FVO4[/asin]

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41PeRaNVjKL._SS400_.jpg)

When I saw this disc advertised some years ago, I wasn't interested. Maybe it was an error:

J. Haydn - Piano Concerto No. 11 in D major, Hob XVIII:11 (de Maistre, ORF Symphony) , arranged for harp by Xavier de Maistre

http://www.youtube.com/v/LTMvOE2eEjs
Xavier de Maistre, harp
ORF Radiosinfonieorchester Wien
Bertrand de Billy, conductor

Recorded at Schloss Esterházy, Eisenstadt, 2009

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 02, 2012, 07:20:19 PM

This time I would like to take a brief look at the history of Haydn's organ concertos, and also at a few recordings that some of you may be interested in.

It is hard to know what each person's expectations are concerning this genre. When many of us think of 'keyboard concerto', it is something like Mozart 21 or Beethoven 2 or any of dozens of others. Big, powerful pieces of music designed to stand alone as the highlight of an evening at a concert or in the comfort of our listening rooms. If that is your only conception of a concerto, then you will either be surprised or disappointed with these works. By and large, that is not what they are! Of the works listed in the table below, virtually all of them started out life as adjunct church music. They achieved a certain level of popularity, to the point that a few years after their composition Haydn was able to have them published. At that time, he (or the publisher) added 'o gravicembalo' to the 'per organo' line in order to increase saleability. And indeed, copies exist from all over central Europe of most of them.

Year   Hob 18 #   Key   Instruments   Notes
1753   2   D   Organ or Harpsichord, Strings & BC   (2 Oboes, 2 Trumpets and Timpani optional)
1753   5   C   Organ or Harpsichord, Strings & BC   (2 Oboes, 2 Trumpets and Timpani optional)
1753   8   C   Organ or Harpsichord, Strings & BC   (2 Trumpets and Timpani optional)
1753   10   C   Organ or Harpsichord, Strings & BC
1756   1   C   Organ or Harpsichord, 2 Oboes & Strings    (2 Trumpets and Timpani optional)
1756   6   F   Organ or Harpsichord, Solo Violin & Strings
Before 1766   7   G   Organ or Harpsichord, Strings & BC   Considered authentic by some but not by others –
arr. of Hob 15:40 (in F) (by unk)
Before 1766   9   F   Organ or Harpsichord, Strings & BC   Considered authentic by some but not by others

In the mid-1750's, Haydn was supporting himself by playing the violin or the organ, or singing in a regular daily round of church functions in Vienna. As we talked about in other places, the Viennese Mass commonly included a concerto or symphony, or even a 'church sonata', depending upon the importance of the day in the Liturgical Calendar. The need to exercise his compositional skills, and to provide himself with works to play in Mass was probably the driving force behind the production of these works.

It is now a given that the concerto was a struggle for the Viennese. Not just Haydn, but all Viennese composers seemed hard pressed to bring forth works that combined the traditional concerto form, which proved nearly immutable, with the emerging taste for what would be retrospectively known as 'sonata form'. While it is no major concession to say that Haydn's early concertos were not up to the same standards as his later works, the flip side of the equation shows that they were as good as any concertos written in that time period. Not better than most, but not worse either. The language had not been invented yet which would free concerto form from the Baroque into the Classical. In fact, it proved to be one of the most intractable forms to evolve. Pre-1770, very few concertos were significantly different from those composed by Vivaldi and Tartini. Not that there weren't some brilliant exceptions, such as Haydn's own Cello Concerto in C from 1763ish.

In looking down the list of works, the first thing I notice is that the possibility exists that the word 'strings' in the accompaniment group can be deceptive. In all cases, 'strings' here means Violin I, Violin II and basso. Basso can be either cello, double bass or violone. Since all extant copies are marked generically as 'keyboard' (clavier) the solo instrument must be inferred as an organ by internal evidence. An organ is the only instrument of that time with the range to effectively play it.

And on the subject of organs, it is well to note that Austria was NOT the home of the organ art. That would have been northern Germany (as we call the area today). Haydn had access to small, medium and large organs. The small ones had 2 manuals and no pedals. These were found in private chapels, such as the one that he played in daily in 1756 & early 1757 at the home of Count Haugwitz in Vienna and later at the Vienna home of the Esterhazy's. The medium size organ would have also had 2 manuals, but a short octave pedal board. His daily job in Leopoldstadt at the Church of the Barmherzige Brüder involved just such an organ. It was not until many years later that he finally had a go at a large organ, but that doesn't figure into these works at all, it was possibly used as early as the Grosseorgelsolomesse in 1768 at Esterházy Palace. Still, the idea that any of these instruments were on the scale of German organs needs to be dismissed. Why is that important? Well, for one thing it puts ones expectations into scale, and secondly, the music itself is written in such a way as to take advantage of the sustaining capabilities of the instrument and the rapid decay of sound.

Versions I have to talk about;
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/ConcertosSchornsheim.jpg)
Schornsheim performs all the known authentic keyboard concerti. The ones she does on the organ are 1, 8 & 10.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnConcertosDivinaArmoniacover2.jpg)
Ghielmi plays #2, 6 & 10. In a classic typo, Hob XVIII is called XVII except for in #6. :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHolzapfelfrontcover.jpg)

Holzapfel on Brilliant plays #1, 2, 5, 6, 7, 8 &10. His is possibly the most complete set since he includes #7. More on that later.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKoopmanOrgancover.jpg)
On this Challenge Classics disk recorded in 2009, is Koopman's second go at some of these on organ, and third if you count cembalo! Here he performs #1, 2 & 6.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKoopmanOrgan2cover.jpg)
This is Koopman's first essay into the organ concertos. I finally found a reasonably priced copy of it (it was 2-3X more 2 years ago! :o ) and it is headed my way even now. I am quite interested in hearing how he changed over the 19 years that separates these 2 recordings. Since they say "The 6 Organ Concertos", I will for now go with 1, 2, 5, 6, 8 & 10. I will certainly post a follow-up to this essay when I have it in hand, though!

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHaselbckOrgancover.jpg)
Haselböck & his band, Divertimento Salzburg, have 2 disks on Orfeo with organ concerti. This one has #2, 7 & 8.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHaselbckcover.jpg)
While this one contains #6 & 10 as well as some lovely divertimentos. Pity there isn't a third disk with 1 & 5 on it... :-\

And the final disk I have contains only 1 organ concerto, #1;
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnTrumpetHogwoodcover.jpg)
Although I bought this disk for the 2 wind concertos, the organ concerto is quite formidable also.

Next I will discuss the individual works and the recordings.

Thanks for your interest, please feel free to comment and correct or even ask questions. :)
End of Part 1

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on November 02, 2012, 08:26:35 PM

Gurn, I thought you had the Naxos box of concertos (although they are MI performances)?

They do 1, 8 and 10 on organ--same as Schornsheim --although it's been long enough since I played them that I don't really remember how the performances sounded.

BTW, if you don't have it, I would suggest getting it, if only for the violin and 'cello concertos.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 03, 2012, 06:44:46 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 02, 2012, 08:26:35 PM
Gurn, I thought you had the Naxos box of concertos (although they are MI performances)?

They do 1, 8 and 10 on organ--same as Schornsheim --although it's been long enough since I played them that I don't really remember how the performances sounded.

BTW, if you don't have it, I would suggest getting it, if only for the violin and 'cello concertos.

Jeffrey,
Well, as odd as it may seem, there are actually some Haydn recordings that I don't have! :o Through no fault of my own, of course. 0:) Once I realized the impossibility of that particular ambition, I narrowed down to getting all the PI recordings that I could find. I do, in fact, have a lot of MI recordings, some of them excellent, but conquering that field is beyond my means! :D

I invite you to spin up your disks though and see how they have treated the organ concertos. I suspect that like all of Haydn's works, they can do quite well under a range of treatments. They are interesting works to get to know, actually. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 03, 2012, 08:05:49 AM

Hi Gurn - thanks for the extensive and well done essay on the Haydn Organ/KB Concerti; usually don't think of the organ w/ Papa Joe but the guy did write a LOT of music over a long period of time and had to make a living in those years, especially the early ones!

Now, I do own the 2-disc set of the Schornsheim recordings, and also a single CD of Brautigam on FP doing 4 of these works (Hob. XVIII/2, 3, 4, 11), but that is it! So might want to get one or several discs that are organ-centric! ;D

I'll look forward to your further discussion, particularly of the many recordings you showed to see which ones may tweak my interest and are your favorites - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 03, 2012, 08:17:09 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on November 03, 2012, 08:05:49 AM
Hi Gurn - thanks for the extensive and well done essay on the Haydn Organ/KB Concerti; usually don't think of the organ w/ Papa Joe but the guy did write a LOT of music over a long period of time and had to make a living in those years, especially the early ones!

Now, I do own the 2-disc set of the Schornsheim recordings, and also a single CD of Brautigam on FP doing 4 of these works (Hob. XVIII/2, 3, 4, 11), but that is it! So might want to get one or several discs that are organ-centric! ;D

I'll look forward to your further discussion, particularly of the many recordings you showed to see which ones may tweak my interest and are your favorites - Dave :)

Thanks, Dave. Working on Part 2 now, in fact.

Between Schornsheim and Brautigam you have the KB concerti pretty much covered! I haven't addressed 3, 4 & 11 here at all, obviously because they are certainly intended for other types of keyboard. What those types might be could well be the subject of a whole essay!

One thing I like about doing these essays is that I will now sit down with several recordings of each of these works and attempt to analyze them a bit, and on the other side I will have learned a lot more about them than I know right now. So the biggest benefit accrues to me, but I hope everyone gets something from it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 03, 2012, 08:56:17 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 03, 2012, 08:17:09 AM
........
One thing I like about doing these essays is that I will now sit down with several recordings of each of these works and attempt to analyze them a bit, and on the other side I will have learned a lot more about them than I know right now. So the biggest benefit accrues to me, but I hope everyone gets something from it. :)

Understand that last statement well - over a 3+ decade career in academic radiology, I put together a LOT of lectures (most PowerPoint presentations about 40-50 minutes long) - these were all well received by my audiences, whether residents or larger ones @ meetings - taught them a lot but putting those together always gave me the MOST knowledge on the topic(s) - Dave :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 03, 2012, 10:19:15 AM

Part 2
Concertos 2, 5, 8 & 10 all date from among Haydn's earliest surviving works. The exact date of composition of any of these is not known, but believed to be from the period of 1753-1755. For my own purposes, I have spread them out over this span. They share the same instrumentation discussed earlier, and three of them (5, 8 & 10) share the same key of C major, the main key of church music. As you can see from the chart in Part 1, the opportunity exists for adding trumpets and timpani (yes, they are always a set. Can't have one without the other, in Vienna anyway). So the recordings reflect that; both options taken. I will report back on that, and also on the inclusion of other instruments that may or may not be appropriate.

Hob 18:2 Concerto for Organ, Strings and BC (basso continuo)
Recordings:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnConcertosDivinaArmoniacover2.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHolzapfelfrontcover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKoopmanOrgancover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHaselbckOrgancover.jpg)

Key: D major
1753 Organ or Harpsichord, Strings & BC 2 Oboes, 2 Trumpets and Timpani optional
3 movements
I. Allegro moderato
II. Adagio molto
III. Allegro

Organs used;
Ghielmi – Pradella 2007
Koopman – Garnier organ positif w/Gedackt 8', Flute 4', Principale 2, Quint 1½ Regal 16.
Haselböck – Orgel des Doms St. Martin zu Eisenstadt; Malleck 1778

Haselböck, Ghielmi and Koopman have all devoted extensive research to these works, which shows clearly in their liner notes. Since my copy of the Holzapfel set comes from the Big Box, you must know that I have no liner notes from it at all. I may end up purchasing the 2 disk set to make up for that deficiency though.

The general agreement among these 4 versions is that the extant "optional" trumpet/timpani parts are in fact bogus, Koopman going so far as to point out that some of the notes for the trumpets couldn't have been played on natural trumpets and so they must have been 19th century additions. Another consensus seems to be that the work itself (according to Haselböck) is for a large enough venue that 1 to a part strings aren't adequate. My ears aren't good enough to count the string players on a recording (that's a joke, OK? ::) ) but it sounds to me like Koopman and Holzapfel use the fewest, possibly 2 to a part, while Haselböck uses more and Ghielmi has the most. No one adds any faux wind parts.

The organs themselves are, in the main, a trifle too big for this particular work, but Koopman uses a lovely little positif organ that is probably quite characteristic of what would have been in a small church at the time. As we discussed earlier though, organs in Austria at the time didn't have a pedal board, and all of these organs have one and they are used here. The kicker is that Haydn never wrote a part for the pedal board, and so whatever part they are playing has to have been added on later. It does merely reinforce the bass continuo though, so it only should be offensive to purists. Not us, them. :) Another little bit of a info-gem from Ghielmi is that the range issue that I mentioned earlier is that throughout, Haydn's studiously avoids using the high d3 (probably an effort in a work in D!). This note was not available on an organ at that time. It takes a combination of historian and player to know something like that, I should say. He also is the only one to mention that the 2 cadenzas (1 in each of the first 2 movements) are left to the player to improvise. Of the 4, I enjoyed Koopman's (in the first movement) the most as he captured and recapped the essence of the movement nicely and economically as well. Overall, I prefer the sound of Koopman's little positive organ the best, and also the economy of forces used. So if pressed for a favorite, Koopman/Challenge would be it.

Hob 18:10 Concerto in C
Circa 1753-55 Organ or Harpsichord, Strings & BC
3 movements
I. Moderato
II. Adagio
III. Allegro

Recordings used:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnConcertosDivinaArmoniacover2.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHolzapfelfrontcover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHaselbckcover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/ConcertosSchornsheim.jpg)

Hob 18:10 in C major is also in this group of early concertos that Haydn wrote in Vienna in the early/mid 1750's. It is one of the two that could be considered smaller scale, along with #5. #2 & 8 are larger in conception and more expansive. This is actually a very attractive work that I have been enjoying as I listened to. With one notable exception, the four bands treated it as a smaller scale work, with 2 of them (Haselböck and Ghielmi) even dropping down to one-on-a-part in the central Adagio. Schornsheim plays it with a fairly large string section and at a brisk pace, as we shall see again later when we look at #8. In the Adagio (which plays as an Andante here) the more rapid tempo makes the phrasing seem to fall together in a very positive way. It is a nice entertainment when done this way, although unlikely to have been able to fulfill any possible liturgical function.

The surprise of the bunch is Holzapfel, who here fills his orchestra out in the strings and adds trumpet and timpani! This is the only one of the four early concertos which doesn't claim to offer this option, and so it left me scratching my head. Still, if parts can be devised (which is routine and always has been since they were new works. The same is true of Mozart. The T & T are always separate from the main parts) then the work can certainly handle them. They don't sound bad in any way, just surprising to hear.

Ghielmi also uses a stripped down, one-on-a-part orchestra in the Adagio and it balances nicely with the organ here. Of the four versions I looked at, Ghielmi and Haselböck had the most appeal for me. The size of the band, the tempos used, the balance between organ and orchestra, all of them come together nicely in these recordings.

I notice in reading the personnel listing of the orchestra (La Divina Armonia) that Ghielmi has 6 violins (4 firsts & 2 2nds?) A viola, a cello and a double-baß. Since there is no part for a viola, one is left wondering if she is there to reinforce the continuo section by doubling the cello, or to add some punch to the 2nd violins. Curious if anyone has an idea about that. :)

Next time we will cover concerto #5 & 8, both from this same time period. As always, your feedback is welcomed.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 03, 2012, 06:05:09 PM

Part 3
Hob 18:5
Circa 1753-5 Organ, Strings & BC (2 Oboes, 2 Trumpets and Timpani optional)
3 movements
I. Allegro moderato
II. Andante
III. Allegro

Recordings:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHolzapfelfrontcover.jpg)

Much of what was said about the previous work holds true for this one also. It is perhaps a touch smaller in scale than the D major concerto, but one gets the sense that it is more tightly constructed. As a note pointing towards the future of the concerto, Haydn has here kicked off the central slow movement with the organ instead of a little thematic flourish in the orchestra. I found this rather surprising, not typical at all.
Holzapfel is the only version that I have on the organ right now. I believe that Koopman 1 will have it also, but Schornsheim plays it on a harpsichord instead. Fortunately for me, Holzapfel does a lovely job with it. The organ doesn't sound like the one he uses in the D major work, it seems like a smaller one, a chamber organ at best. And this is a good thing, it suits the scale of the work and matches up nicely with the fact that his orchestra appears to be at most 2 on a part, much closer to scale and well balanced with the organ. If you have either this 2 disk set or the Big Box, I think you will enjoy this work in there.

Hob 18:8 Concerto in C
Circa 1753-5 Organ, Strings & BC (2 Oboes, 2 Trumpets and Timpani optional)
I. Moderato
II. Adagio
III. Allegro

Recordings:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHolzapfelfrontcover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/ConcertosSchornsheim.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHaselbckOrgancover.jpg)

Concerto #8 is a more expansive work than #5. They seem to have a kinship in the little items like the writing style in the solo part in the first movement, but also in the bigger things like this one shares the idea of opening the slow movement directly with the solo instead of the orchestra.

Holzapfel plays both works in a similar manner, with a small string section and a neat sounding small organ. Played in this manner, either of these works would be perfectly suitable for a chapel or smallish church. Something different from the other two versions presented here; he plays the central Adagio as essentially a long solo for the organ with only the basso continuo along for the ride. It is very convincing done this way.

Schornsheim and Haselböck clearly have a different vision for this piece though. Both of them decided to use the optional trumpets and timpani and larger string sections, and the result is a greatly expanded sound that can easily fill a medium size church, such as would also have been part of Haydn's world in those days. One easy way to differentiate the two though is that Schornsheim plays a much more brisk tempo than does Haselböck. They both sound good, but I think that their intentions are different. Haselböck is playing in the Church of Eisenstadt, and it just seems to me that he is matching the work to that. Schornsheim is playing it more for entertainment, and doing a fine job of it too. So this is a case where I would choose the version I wanted based as much on what I was using it for (you know my habit of playing masses with ancillary music included, I'm sure). All 3 versions are really quite excellent so it comes down to what you feel like today. :)

That concludes the 4 earliest concertos. In Part 4 we will tackle #6 & 7, a double concerto and an adaptation. I hope you find it interesting. Please feel free to comment on anything you've read so far. Your questions help me to learn!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 04, 2012, 05:31:43 AM

Hi Gurn - have just finished reading your newest essays on the organ works and I'm getting itchy to obtain all - seems like Holzapfel might be my 'single' best choice @ the moment, i.e. all of the works, recent recordings, and @ the Brilliant pricing. Thanks again for putting all of this 'early' material together - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on November 04, 2012, 05:47:14 AM

Hello again Gurn! I'm glad you are posting essays on Haydn's concerti for organ, I think I have Koopman's account but will have to check when I get home. I had faulty files of that disk and I'm not sure if I replaced them yet. In any case, this is a genre I haven't listened to hardly among Haydn's output, so again, I'm thankful you're presenting info about these works!

In other news I just received Buchbinder's complete Haydn sonata box, which I'm excited to hear! Also, I'm getting the Bernstein box of Haydn symphonies and masses, old favorites of mine in one convenient set!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51z0VgxIW3L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41uI0uBaO0L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 04, 2012, 08:25:44 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on November 04, 2012, 05:31:43 AM
Hi Gurn - have just finished reading your newest essays on the organ works and I'm getting itchy to obtain all - seems like Holzapfel might be my 'single' best choice @ the moment, i.e. all of the works, recent recordings, and @ the Brilliant pricing. Thanks again for putting all of this 'early' material together - Dave :)

Thanks, Dave, glad you're enjoying. As I said at the beginning, these works are unique in Haydn's output, and so they stand alone there in a place that not a lot of people want to go. But I have found them to be worth the time, both from an historical perspective and an entertainment one. It sort of has me itching to check out the instruments more. My knowledge of organs from this time (or really, from any time) is abysmally dim, can't really have that, can we? :)

Yes, I would think that the Holzapfel would be a good choice. I hunted round last night to see if Brilliant post their liner notes online, but of course they don't. I ended up buying the set just for the liner notes, which Brilliant say on their website are well researched and written. Of course, they would, wouldn't they? Mustn't have a 'Morons Only' sticker on the front... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 04, 2012, 08:30:37 AM

Quote from: Leo K on November 04, 2012, 05:47:14 AM
Hello again Gurn! I'm glad you are posting essays on Haydn's concerti for organ, I think I have Koopman's account but will have to check when I get home. I had faulty files of that disk and I'm not sure if I replaced them yet. In any case, this is a genre I haven't listened to hardly among Haydn's output, so again, I'm thankful you're presenting info about these works!

In other news I just received Buchbinder's complete Haydn sonata box, which I'm excited to hear! Also, I'm getting the Bernstein box of Haydn symphonies and masses, old favorites of mine in one convenient set!

Leo,
Delighted to see you again. By Koopman, you mean his first set on Philips? That one should be in my mailbox by Wednesday, I hope. If it is as good as his 2nd one, that will be great. If you have them, they are at least worth a good listen. You being a fan of Hasse (and Wagenseil?) should feel right at home with these, I would think. :)

Let us know how the Buchbinder works out for you. If I was going to get some modern piano Haydn, I suspect that this would be what I would get. Heard good things about it.

And of course, Lennie, heard very good things about that box too. Enjoy!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 09, 2012, 07:17:30 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on November 09, 2012, 06:58:49 AM
Two discs into Solomons' Haydn and finding it rather drab, actually. Quite listless and relatively boring. Will it get better, I wonder?

What a blow for you! :o

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 10, 2012, 12:53:01 PM

Part 4

Hob 18:6 Concerto in F
Circa 1756 Organ or Harpsichord, Solo Violin, Strings & BC
3 movements;
I. Allegro moderato
II. Largo
III. Presto

Recordings;
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnConcertosDivinaArmoniacover2.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKoopmanOrgancover.jpg)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHolzapfelfrontcover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHaselbckcover.jpg)

Chances are good that if you know any of these concertos at all, it is this double concerto for keyboard and violin. Probably not in the organ version, but it has been being recorded for years with a piano, then a fortepiano, then a harpsichord, and finally with the instrument that it was probably written for. Although if this was intended for insertion in a mass, it was one that would be performed on a joyous occasion, since that would be one of the best adjectives to describe it! Just to spend a moment in semi-speculation, in an interview much later in life, Haydn addressed the fact that he had always received criticism because his church music was too joyous. He replied to his critics of the propriety of his sacred music that his heart always leaped with joy when contemplated God and it couldn't help but be reflected in his music. The other thing that occurs to me is my first reaction when I heard a disk of Mozart's 'Church Sonatas' for the first time. These were anything but somber of funereal. They were, in fact, the spur to my interest in Austrian church music.

On his first traversal of the 'complete organ concertos' in 1980, Koopman skipped this work, electing instead to perform it with the same group of players;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKoopmancover.jpg)

except the violin soloist was Monica Huggett who was concertmaster at the time, while on this newer version it is current concertmaster Catherine Manson. The fact that the internal evidence used (as with others of these works) was that the work itself was expressly written to avoid the notes outside of the narrower compass of the organ shows that the state of the art of music scholarship has advanced a bit, and that current recordings are reflecting that advance even with the same players over time.

The lively Allegro moderato first movement settles down into a Largo which is no funeral march at all. The central portion of it is an extended duet between the two soloists which switches the lead back and forth for a nice sharing of tonal color throughout. In Holzapfel's instrument in particular, the 4' Spitzfletten is used to good effect in much of this duet. The lively finale also allows plenty of opportunity for the solo violin to stand out from the tutti, where by tradition this part is played from.

Of the four versions presented here, it is a hard choice to select a favorite as each has its own charms. Ultimately it is a toss-up between Ghielmi and Holzapfel. Both are played wonderfully, capitalizing on the opportunities that Haydn gave for the players to express the pleasure they were getting from the music by little improvisations and ornaments. I know that's a difficult description to read; you can just imagine how hard it was to write!! But that is the feeling I get listening to these. :)

Hob 18:7
circa1757-60

Concerto in F, arranged from Trio in F for Cembalo, Violin & Cello, Hob 15:40.
3 movements
I Moderato
II Adagio
III Allegro
Solo Organ, Violin I, Violin II, basso continuo (Bassoon, Double Baß, Cello, Violone or any combination of)

Well, we finally encounter a bit of controversy. Such as it is in the classical world when Newman isn't around. :) And it isn't whether Haydn wrote this work, the trio is doubtless his work. It is whether he was the arranger of the concerto from it. Apparently feelings ran high at some point in time, since it isn't even always listed with the accepted works (as it isn't in Wyn-Jones' "Oxford Companion to Haydn", for example). Of course musicologists are like political activists; they pick a side and stay with it no matter, with only a very rare change of opinion. For my purposes, this is a non-issue, and clearly there are some musicians out there who agree, since I have a few recordings of it.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHolzapfelfrontcover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKoopmanOrgan2cover.jpg)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHaselbckOrgancover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/1790v7.jpg)

So, of PI versions available, Koopman, back in 1979, was the first to record this piece. His liner notes mention its history as a keyboard trio, although as he states (accurately) "with a different second movement". He plays it with a standard Austrian church complement of 3 first violins, 3 second violins, a cello and a violone. The remaining concertos also use a viola but this one has no part for one. I admit to some confusion from Koopman's liner notes in this regard, where he starts out by saying that other than in #1 they only use strings, but then going on to say that they use 2 oboes and a bassoon also. Certainly the bassoon as part of the continuo is a very appropriate part of even a string orchestra, but the oboes are an oddity! Perhaps in the original Dutch it makes more sense. Anyway, it sounds very fine played as it is. The Lindsen organ is a lovely sounding instrument, at the time of this recording it was newly rebuilt to original standards and they did a great job with it. What we want to bear in mind at all times though is that Haydn's organs for these works had a single manual with no pedals, so anything that smacks of giant church organ is inappropriate, not just because it was not available to the composer anyway, but because the music can barely stand up to it with anything short of a Philharmonic. This is true of the "smaller" concertos, certainly not either #1 or 2, which can stand up to most anything. :)

I like that Haselböck addresses the issue of the trio directly. He speaks of the differences between the 2, and the fact that Breitkopf issued the work as a concerto in 1766. He is the only one to directly state his belief that this is an arrangement by Haydn. I agree with him, not because of the internal musical evidence cited, but because Haydn at that time was working for Count Moritz, composing both chamber music, his early symphonies, and music for the chapel. Knowing Haydn's habits throughout his career, it doesn't require the slightest stretch to believe that he would have adapted an extant chamber piece for church use. All it required was tossing out the minuet and composing a new, appropriate Adagio, and simplifying the keyboard part and making it fit the compass of the organ. What I haven't seen yet is any evidence that this process didn't go the opposite direction. Which is to say that there is no plausible reason to believe that Haydn didn't take one of his organ concertos, ornament and broaden out the keyboard part, toss out the Adagio and compose a new minuet, and voila! A new trio for the lads to play at tonight's soirée. Just sayin'...

Haselböck once again uses the beautiful little organ at the Church of St. Martin in Eisenstadt. It is a 1778 Malleck and very likely an organ that Haydn played later in life, although certainly not for these works. Nonetheless it is fine sounding. And Haselböck uses the real trio accompaniment (2 Violins & Bass). He is trying to show in this disk how these 3 concertos (2, 7 & 8 ) were suitable to be used in a small, medium and largish church building. His use of #7 for the small church strikes me as a perfect choice.

Holzapfel also uses a Malleck organ from Eisenstadt, this one a 1797 model, located in the Bergkirche. This organ is actually called 'The Haydn Organ' and the original 'organ' is in The Haydn Haus museum. Despite the fact that it has been upgraded several times over the centuries, Holzapfel uses only the stops and parts that were in existence in Haydn's time for this recording. It is a lovely sounding thing.

The final recording I included in here is a version of the Keyboard Trio on which the concerto is based (or vice-versa). I used the Trio 1790 version intentionally, not just to give Sarge a hard time, but also because AFAIK it is the only one that is properly played on the harpsichord, and in this case I think that is important if one is to see the difference. If this is indeed the model that Haydn chose, it is no mystery why, as it is among the most entertaining of the early trios. The finale (Allegro molto opposed to the plain Allegro of the concerto) is a real treat, and inversely reminiscent of some of the Hungarian themes that he used in later works. Tempo makes a real difference here as the thematic phrasing is different at this faster speed. I also have the Van Sweiten Trio's version where Oort plays on fortepiano, but one doesn't get quite the same feeling from it. Anyway, if you have the concerto and you have the trio, listen to them back to back. It's interesting. :)

And then there was one. I saved #1 for last for a variety of reasons, not least because there are several recordings of it so it will be as long an essay any of those for two works. That one soon. As always, feedback and discussion are welcome.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 10, 2012, 06:22:45 PM

Part 5
Hob 18:1
Concerto in C for Organ Solo, 2 Oboes & Strings
In Haydn's hand on autograph "1756"

3 movements;
I Moderato
II Largo
III Allegro molto

Recordings;
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/ConcertosSchornsheim.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHolzapfelfrontcover.jpg)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKoopmanOrgancover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKoopmanOrgan2cover.jpg)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnTrumpetHogwoodcover.jpg)

Circa 1755, Haydn, by now 23 years old and feeling the urges of maturity, met and fell in love with Therese Keller, daughter of a wig maker in Vienna. As the second daughter, the Keller's were determined that Therese would become a nun. For the mass at which she took her vows, Haydn composed this concerto in C, and possibly also his Salve Regina in E major. It is the only concerto that exists still in its original autograph, dated by Haydn (possibly in later years) as 1756. It is scored for 2 Oboes, string section and 2 Clarini (Trumpets) but without timpani in the original score. Since it was unheard of to use trumpets without timpani, it is never played that way. Probably they were improvised then, and they have been scored many times over since then. So, a quite large orchestra (3 or 4 1st Violins, 3 or 4 2nd Violins, Viola, Cello, & Double Baß (Holzapfel here uses a Violone instead) as well as the winds, which likely included a bassoon or two reinforcing the continuo). Finally, a work that can justify the larger forces that most bands prefer! :)

I would like to begin with the Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood (Leader / Organ). This is the only organ concerto that they had a go at, and they did it up rich. I'm guessing they were thinking about filling up St. Stephan's Cathedral! Violins are 6 & 6, 3 Violas, 2 Cellos, Double Baß, 2 Oboes, Bassoon, 2 Clarini, 1 Timpanist and Hogwood himself on the chamber organ, described as 'by Goetze & Gwynn, an early 18th century English model'. It has a nice tone to it, not much else to say about it. The liner notes, despite having a lot of text, don't really tell you much if you take my meaning. There is no doubt that all of those people are playing; this is the 'biggest' version yet of any concerto in this review. The playing is, as always with this group, brilliant. I think it fair to say that if you want a version done in the large church sort of way, and you already have this disk for the trumpet concerto anyway, you don't have to shop further for this particular work. Hogwood is, in the event that one doesn't know this, a really fine keyboard player. His solo work here is first rate.

Schornsheim, always one of my favorite keyboardists, is accompanied here by the full forces of the Neue Düsseldorfer Hofmusik, which two 1st Violins, two 2nd's, two Violas, one Cello and a Double Baß, with a Bassoon in the continuo. The liner notes for this set, as lovely as the disks are, are just not up to snuff for telling you what's what. For example, I assume that the pair of horns listed are only used in the later concertos for cembalo (3, 4 & 11) but I don't know. Can't hear them anyway. Ms. Schornshiem is playing an organ by Klop from 2008, but there is no further information about it. It sounds like a rather nice chamber organ, although that may merely reflect restraint on her part. Her playing is impeccable as always, and the band is really quite fine too. I like the overall balance they strike here. Not as large as the AAM, but very room filling in any case.

Holzapfel follows Hogwood's lead in having a large orchestra in this work. Not quite as large, however. He has three 1st Violins, three 2nd's, two Violas, one Cello and a single Violone. In addition to the two Oboes, there are two Clarini (Trumpets) & one Timpani. Here, Holzapfel plays a 1750 Hencke organ in the Pilgrimage Church of Maria Kirchbüchl just south of Vienna. It is virtually identical to the original organ that Haydn played for the Brothers of Mercy in Leopoldstadt. It is super! Holzapfel has added the Clarini parts from manuscripts found at the monastery of Kremsier in Moravia, while Hogwood used parts found at Melk. I'm sure a keener ear than mine can detect the differences. The Largo in this version is particularly fine, slower than the others, and very sensitively portrayed.

Koopman's original (1979) version is interestingly different in that, since he couldn't get a good idea on the veracity of the trumpet parts, he played it straight. Which is to say Solo Organ, String Orchestra (three Violins I, three Violins II, one Viola, one Cello and one Violone), two Oboes & Bassoon (continuo). His playing of the work certainly legitimizes this "stripped down" instrumental unit. As throughout this set, Koopman uses the Lindsen organ at Beek-Ubbergen. One little difference I hear is that the band play more in the Largo than in other versions, which feel more like a solo for the organ. I like the balance this gives. Haydn's mastery of slow movements is apparent even at this early stage in his career.

Koopman's much more recent (2009) version has many interesting differences. The 30 year period from 1979 to 2009 showed a lot of growth and change in the period instrument movement, and the performance of this work demonstrates that. Koopman has boosted his string section in this newer version, so 1st violins went from 3 to 5, Violin II went from 3 to 4, violas & cellos went from 1 to 2 each, and he has replaced the beautiful but essentially too quiet violone with a double baß. Still no trumpets or timpani, and as before, 2 oboes and a bassoon. This ensemble offers a richer, fuller sound than the earlier one did. The Garnier positif organ is used again as in #2 & 6 reviewed earlier, and still sounds delightfully ideal in this larger scale work. These two versions, having been recorded 30 years apart, present an interesting historical contrast in performance style. If I was choosing between them, the newer version would be my choice, but the pioneering aspects of the first version, which still stands strong in performance and conviction in the music, is a disk I wouldn't want to do without.

Summary
Well, if it needed proving, I think I have managed to demonstrate that writing about music is a lot more difficult for me than writing about history is. However, I have tried here to answer the sorts of questions that I always have when I go shopping for music. I hope that you are feeling somewhat encouraged to do some shopping yourself. These are charming works and well worth having a disk or two of. I hope you will give them a listen and then come back and post your impressions here. Or if you know something more about them that I haven't presented, please, share it with us.

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on November 11, 2012, 06:19:07 AM

Just recently acquired this fine disc from Jerusalem Quartet. One of the best single disc collection of Haydn SQ I own with pleasing selections from Op.20 (the best from Op.20 IMO) Op.33 and Op.76. Exquisite playing with the cello makeing a nice presence throughout, notably in the Presto of Op.76 No.5. Not sure if this disc has been mention in the Haus, but I would think every Haydn SQ fan should be aware of it.

[asin]B00475Q1W0[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 11, 2012, 06:26:46 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on November 11, 2012, 06:19:07 AM
Just recently acquired this fine disc from Jerusalem Quartet. One of the best single disc collection of Haydn SQ I own with pleasing selections from Op.20 (the best from Op.20 IMO) Op.33 and Op.76. Exquisite playing with the cello making a nice presence throughout, notably in the Presto of Op.76 No.5. Not sure if this disc has been mention in the Haus, but I would think every Haydn SQ fan should be aware of it.

[asin]B00475Q1W0[/asin]

Yes, that's one that I haven't got to yet, Greg, but several people have mentioned here being quite fond of the Jerusalem Quartet. Reckon I'll have to round it up. I think they might have 2 disks out there, although that may be faulty memory on my part. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on November 11, 2012, 06:32:55 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 11, 2012, 06:26:46 AM
Yes, that's one that I haven't got to yet, Greg, but several people have mentioned here being quite fond of the Jerusalem Quartet. Reckon I'll have to round it up. I think they might have 2 disks out there, although that may be faulty memory on my part. :)

8)

Your memory is just fine, Gurn ;)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411BWHGCTEL._SL450_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kgTzFYpvL._SL450_AA300_.jpg)

Jerusalem Quartet - Haydn: Quatuor Op. 64 No 5 'L'Alouette' / Quatuor Op. 76 No 2 'Les Quintes' / Quatuor Op. 77 No 1 'Lobkowitz'

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 11, 2012, 06:36:07 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on November 11, 2012, 06:32:55 AM
Your memory is just fine, Gurn ;)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411BWHGCTEL._SL450_AA300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kgTzFYpvL._SL450_AA300_.jpg)

Jerusalem Quartet - Haydn: Quatuor Op. 64 No 5 'L'Alouette' / Quatuor Op. 76 No 2 'Les Quintes' / Quatuor Op. 77 No 1 'Lobkowitz'

Ah, that's a relief! :D Yes, the one on the right I have seen on offer. Boy, talk about some favorite quartets!! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on November 11, 2012, 06:40:03 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 11, 2012, 06:36:07 AM
Ah, that's a relief! :D Yes, the one on the right I have seen on offer. Boy, talk about some favorite quartets!! :)

8)

Yes, sir. They picked some good ones to fill two discs.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 11, 2012, 10:13:05 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on November 11, 2012, 06:50:39 AM
Now, as to why Buchbinder played all of these works on a modern grand, you'll have to ask him. In any event, from what I've sampled so far it is an excellent set despite the wrong instrument. But Buchbinder is a wonderful interpreter of the music from this period, and I would expect nothing less.

:D

There is nothing better than Haydn on the wrong instrument! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on November 11, 2012, 03:19:57 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on November 11, 2012, 06:50:39 AM
My copy of the Buchbinder sonatas came in and I immediately ripped to my hard drive and read the booklet while it was whirring away.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51z0VgxIW3L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Excerpt from an essay on Haydn String Quartets in the next issue of LISTEN Magazine (http://www.listenmusicmag.com/) :

Quote"Haydn is the vitamins every musician needs", says pianist Rudolf Buchbinder, and complains that orchestras aren't playing enough of it. "We need to play more Haydn. He's even more important than Mozart. When I recorded the whole Haydn [1], it was the most important period in my life. That's when I learned about articulation, phrasing, discipline... everything. Today that helps me in everything I play, from Tchaikovsky to Bach."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on November 11, 2012, 07:36:12 PM

Glenn Gould on Haydn's piano sonatas (from the liner notes to the newest re-issue (The Glenn Gould Collection) under the rubric Glenn Gould Plays Haydn.
Quoted from a telephone conversation with Jonathan Cott in 1974:
"The Haydn sonatas, for instance, which are much more extensive in the canon than the Mozart--there being fifty-something to seventeen or eighteen--which are also more interesting as pieces, as pieces and as experiments, musically. It's the only late-night music that I've sat down and really played for myself in the last year, the early one especially, the baroque-ish ones. They are so beautiful and in every case so delightfully innovative. One never gets the feeling that any two are cut from the same cookie stamp."

He actually considered recording the full set, saying he had "a Haydn fit". The liner notes (by Michael Stegemann) end with this description of his Haydn, which roughly agrees with my impressions after a first hearing (although I don't remember any real extreme sounding tempos).

"Gould's "musical vision" of these Haydn Sonatas was not in the least rococo in style indeed. Indeed, it could have hardly been otherwise. But what we hear instead are extremes of tempo, an emphasis on the middle voices in the service of a polyphonic style not immediately apparent from the printed page, radically reduced agogics, and a characteristic avoidance of legato playing that none the less makes these works from the last twenty five years of the eighteenth century sound "baroque-ish' in a way that was dear to Glenn Gould's heart."

The sonatas Gould actually recorded were Hoboken XVI numbers 42 and 48-52, all recorded in 1981, and in this issue, a recording of 49 recorded in 1958. The 1981 recordings were the last of his recordings to be issued before his death.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on November 12, 2012, 12:16:16 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 11, 2012, 07:36:12 PM
"The Haydn sonatas, for instance, which are much more extensive in the canon than the Mozart--there being fifty-something to seventeen or eighteen...

Ha! This is a typical Gouldism; his habit of pretending not to know exactly when or how much of something when talking about it... a meticulous, forcedly casual shtick. Somewhere between endearing and annoying. Once you notice it, you'll read and especially hear it everywhere.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 12, 2012, 05:54:16 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 10, 2012, 06:22:45 PM
Part 5

Recordings;
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHolzapfelfrontcover.jpg)

Holzapfel follows Hogwood's lead in having a large orchestra in this work. Not quite as large, however. He has three 1st Violins, three 2nd's, two Violas, one Cello and a single Violone. In addition to the two Oboes, there are two Clarini (Trumpets) & one Timpani. Here, Holzapfel plays a 1750 Hencke organ in the Pilgrimage Church of Maria Kirchbüchl just south of Vienna. It is virtually identical to the original organ that Haydn played for the Brothers of Mercy in Leopoldstadt. It is super! Holzapfel has added the Clarini parts from manuscripts found at the monastery of Kremsier in Moravia, while Hogwood used parts found at Melk. I'm sure a keener ear than mine can detect the differences. The Largo in this version is particularly fine, slower than the others, and very sensitively portrayed.

Hi Gurn - thanks for the further comments of Papa's Organ Concertos - a few days ago I put in an Amazon order for the Holzaphel set - complete, excellent price, and great comments from you - so seems like my 'one-stop shopping' choice! :) Dave

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 12, 2012, 06:06:46 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on November 12, 2012, 05:52:47 AM
Who hasn't heard the Mozart Flute & Harp concerto? But I did not know that Haydn had also written a concerto for the same combination:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EsJuSgJ0L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

(Suzanna Klintcharova, harp & Andràs Adorjàn, flute)

I am listening to it right now and enjoying it immensely!

:)

Well, he didn't, but probably one of his works was adapted. Or else it is one of the many works attributed to him, some of which are fine works in their own right. I am curious, does that disk give a Hoboken number?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 12, 2012, 06:16:31 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on November 12, 2012, 05:54:16 AM
Hi Gurn - thanks for the further comments of Papa's Organ Concertos - a few days ago I put in an Amazon order for the Holzaphel set - complete, excellent price, and great comments from you - so seems like my 'one-stop shopping' choice! :) Dave

Dave,
I think you will be satisfied with that set. The liner notes are pretty good too, and he gives some info on the organs. Not enough to smarten ME up, but way more than I knew already. Enjoy those, let us know what you think after. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 12, 2012, 07:11:39 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on November 12, 2012, 07:05:41 AM
There is no Hob. number, but I found the recording on MOG/Spotify with no access to the notes. After some Google searching I found out that the concerto was an arrangement by Andràs Adorjan - but of what work I do not know.

Ah. It could very easily be an early keyboard trio. Harpists can (and definitely did) play harpsichord parts easily, and flute and violin were often interchangeable. So a good arranger of the continuo with some counterpoint tossed in could make a nice little chamber concerto that way. I'm curious about it, maybe I can find something later when I'm not at work. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on November 12, 2012, 07:26:03 AM

It's Hob. XVIII/6, originally a concerto for violin, harpsichord and strings.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 12, 2012, 07:29:15 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on November 12, 2012, 07:26:03 AM
It's Hob. XVIII/6, originally a concerto for violin, harpsichord and strings.

Ah! Very good. I've never seen an arrangement of that. Sounds interesting. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 12, 2012, 12:37:43 PM

Another gold star for Nav!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 12, 2012, 12:44:01 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 12, 2012, 12:37:43 PM
Another gold star for Nav!

The best researcher in the business. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 12, 2012, 06:16:54 PM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Z0M8ChfOL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Have you done a page on the Nelson.....just can't find it. I, like other novices, are intrigued with the name and due to just that I seek it out more. Totally irrational I know (wasn't even written for him, correct?), but there you have it.

Also, noticed the one above came out October of this year. I may get it just for the cover....more irrationality! 8) I believe the chioir here hung with Hogwood as well. Here is the ensemble....only 27....does this sound correct for the piece, Gurn?

http://www.newcenturybaroque.com/www/about.html

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 13, 2012, 04:46:52 AM

Quote from: Bogey on November 12, 2012, 06:16:54 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Z0M8ChfOL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Have you done a page on the Nelson.....just can't find it. I, like other novices, are intrigued with the name and due to just that I seek it out more. Totally irrational I know (wasn't even written for him, correct?), but there you have it.

Also, noticed the one above came out October of this year. I may get it just for the cover....more irrationality! 8) I believe the chioir here hung with Hogwood as well. Here is the ensemble....only 27....does this sound correct for the piece, Gurn?

http://www.newcenturybaroque.com/www/about.html

Hi, Bill,
No, I haven't done a page specifically on the mass itself, although in the 1801 (1800?) year, I explained the background of the title and about Nelson's visit to Eisenstadt with Lady Hamilton et al. I could well do a mass though, I think I have enough material now to write one up. This might be a good one to start on.

27 is more than enough to do this, the original probably didn't have as many as that even (probably close though). The chapel at Eisenstadt where it premiered would have been pretty well filled with sound with 27 musicians! :)

Thanks for pointing this out. I hadn't seen it. Looks like it needs to be on the list. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 13, 2012, 06:12:00 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on November 13, 2012, 05:01:29 AM
Speaking of, I found this CD on MOG but was not sure if it was period style or not - anyone know?

[asin]B004JU138K[/asin]

They are not a PI orchestra, but that doesn't speak to their style of play which may be HIPper than hell. I only can find bits and pieces about them, they have been around for a long time though. Since one of their big disks is Fauré's 'Requiem', I figure they aren't Baroque. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on November 13, 2012, 07:42:22 AM

Quote from: Bogey on November 12, 2012, 06:16:54 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61Z0M8ChfOL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Have you done a page on the Nelson.....just can't find it. I, like other novices, are intrigued with the name and due to just that I seek it out more. Totally irrational I know (wasn't even written for him, correct?), but there you have it.
...

from
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/10/ionarts-at-large-brso-season-opening.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2012/10/ionarts-at-large-brso-season-opening.html)

QuoteHaydn's Nelson Mass was inaccurately nicknamed that for its alleged, audible connection with the Admiral's victory over the Napoleonic Fleet in the 1798 Battle of Aboukir Bay... (news of the victory didn't reach Vienna until well after its composition). But the mass earned itself that nickname anyway, when it was performed in front of the war hero at Palais Esterházy in Vienna, two years later. The allegedly audible war-connection stemmed then from the dark, trumpet and timpani dominated orchestral sound that was the result of a rather more domestic cause: Haydn's employer had dismissed the woodwinds from the orchestra, so Haydn had none to play with and made the most of brass and percussion instead. Woodwinds were later added to the score again, and it was this edition, even if it undermines the masses' original character, that was performed here.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 14, 2012, 06:52:40 AM

All could yet play out well . . . but one of the three Orpheus Ch Orch CDs I ordered was somehow returned to the sender . . . who has now re-sent to me. The two which arrived safe and sound are lovely, no denying it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on November 14, 2012, 01:26:39 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 14, 2012, 06:52:40 AM
All could yet play out well . . . but one of the three Orpheus Ch Orch CDs I ordered was somehow returned to the sender . . . who has now re-sent to me. The two which arrived safe and sound are lovely, no denying it.

Orpheus .C.O. was some of my first purchases of Haydn symphonies. All very good, all worth the price of admission.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mirror Image on November 21, 2012, 04:42:55 PM

What are everybody's favorite performances of The Creation? I bought this one tonight:

(http://boxset.ru/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/karajan_haydn_die_schopfung1969.jpg)

Has anyone here heard this one? If yes, what do you think of it?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 21, 2012, 04:51:15 PM

Quote from: Mirror Image on November 21, 2012, 04:42:55 PM
What are everybody's favorite performances of The Creation? I bought this one tonight:

(http://boxset.ru/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/karajan_haydn_die_schopfung1969.jpg)

Has anyone here heard this one? If yes, what do you think of it?

I expect you will like that one a lot, John. Look at the soloists! Some of the all-time best.

For myself, I like Macreesh in English:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnCreationMcCreeshcover.jpg)

and Jacobs in German;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnCreationJacobscover.jpg)

But you know me by now, I prefer period instruments without speculating that they are any better for someone else. If I didn't, the Karajan would certainly be up there on my list! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 21, 2012, 05:03:10 PM

A couple of new keyboard disks arrived today. One I have been wanting to get for a long time, strongly recommended by many, and the other a serendipitous acquisition that I happened across.

That would be this one;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardMathewsHarpsichordcover.jpg)

by Shirley Mathews on Gasparo, 5 sonatas from the 1770's, which she rightly points out is the tail end of the supremacy of the cembalo. Within a matter of a few short years, the ascendancy of the fortepiano would be nearly complete. Matthews calls his works of this period the supreme expression of the possibilities of the cembalo, they use every resource without making the player wish he had more at hand (that is; that he had a fortepiano instead). I'm looking forward to listening to this one, Mathews and Haydn certainly seem simpatico. :)

And then, this one at long last;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardCoopercover.jpg)

possibly the last major Haydn period keyboard disk that I didn't have. Cooper impresses me in many ways, both as a player in Mozart with Podger, and as a feeling conductor of the Arion Ensemble in Haydn's Stürm und Dräng symphonies. So this is a disk to look forward to, as it contains the major late works, like the sonatas Hob 48 & 49, the Piccolo Divertimento, and the finest sonata before Beethoven, Hob 52. Some nice evening lie ahead with these!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on November 21, 2012, 05:22:24 PM

Quote from: Mirror Image on November 21, 2012, 04:42:55 PM
What are everybody's favorite performances of The Creation? I bought this one tonight:

(http://boxset.ru/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/karajan_haydn_die_schopfung1969.jpg)

Has anyone here heard this one? If yes, what do you think of it?

The two I've enjoyed the most in recent years are...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ihdHvYYHL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41CD88C382L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 21, 2012, 05:25:19 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on November 21, 2012, 05:22:24 PM
The two I've enjoyed the most in recent years are...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ihdHvYYHL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41CD88C382L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Yes, I really like that Spering too. Haven't heard the Bernstein, but I seem to recall some folks mentioning it here before as a nice performance. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on November 21, 2012, 05:43:41 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 21, 2012, 05:25:19 PM
Yes, I really like that Spering too. Haven't heard the Bernstein, but I seem to recall some folks mentioning it here before as a nice performance. :)

8)

The Bernstein is good, a larger-sounding performance. And his final "Amen" at the end will send chills down your spine. It's coupled with Harmoniemesse, can't go wrong with either piece.
Although overall I would recommend Spering's Creation.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 21, 2012, 05:50:50 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on November 21, 2012, 05:47:33 PM
I've heard the Gary Cooper disc and it was definitely my cup of tea, and wish he'd record more. The Shirley Mathews looks very interesting. I will have to look for that one.

Good 'uns!

:)

San,
I got them both at BRO if that helps. I haven't seen the Mathews elsewhere. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on November 21, 2012, 06:00:12 PM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BzjUZxIyL._SL550_AA350_.jpg)

Got through most of this marionette opera earlier today, some very nice stuff, gorgeous singing, although much of the music is missing it didn't seem to be obvious by any means. Perhaps the story is a bit broken, but I don't speak much German and don't have the libretto so I'm unsure about that.

Any owners of this disc? I have the Huss recording of symphonies 12, 50 and 60 and always keep it close by, great sound and performance.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 21, 2012, 06:03:57 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on November 21, 2012, 06:00:12 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BzjUZxIyL._SL550_AA350_.jpg)

Got through most of this marionette opera earlier today, some very nice stuff, gorgeous singing, although much of the music is missing it didn't seem to be obvious by any means. Perhaps the story is a bit broken, but I don't speak much German and don't have the libretto so I'm unsure about that.

Any owners of this disc? I have the Huss recording of symphonies 12, 50 and 60 and always keep it close by, great sound and performance.

Oh sure. Agree with all you wrote about it. I've found that if you don't have the libretto and you don't speak the language, most operas (especially Haydn's) are great entertainment. The fact that the remains don't always make good dramatic sense then becomes meaningless. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mirror Image on November 21, 2012, 07:41:21 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 21, 2012, 04:51:15 PM
I expect you will like that one a lot, John. Look at the soloists! Some of the all-time best.

For myself, I like Macreesh in English:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnCreationMcCreeshcover.jpg)

and Jacobs in German;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnCreationJacobscover.jpg)

But you know me by now, I prefer period instruments without speculating that they are any better for someone else. If I didn't, the Karajan would certainly be up there on my list! :)

8)

Thanks for the recommendations, but I prefer modern instruments to period instruments. There are many period instrument recordings that I do enjoy, but from a personal point-of-view I don't really see these HIP performances as preserving the past, I look at the whole movement as a way of trying to recreate the past, which looks good on paper and is an honorable pursuit, but many times I have found that HIP performances fall flat on my ears. Of course, there are always exceptions. I'm just giving you my general opinion about the subject.

Anyway, getting back to Haydn, he's my favorite Classical Era composer by far. I don't think I've ever heard one not from him that uninspired or mere note-spinning. The guy was incredible.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mirror Image on November 21, 2012, 07:43:38 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on November 21, 2012, 05:22:24 PM
The two I've enjoyed the most in recent years are...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51ihdHvYYHL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41CD88C382L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I'll check these out, Greg. Thanks! I've passed by both of these recordings numerous times. The Bernstein looks especially enticing.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 22, 2012, 04:26:50 AM

Quote from: Mirror Image on November 21, 2012, 07:43:38 PM
I'll check these out, Greg. Thanks! I've passed by both of these recordings numerous times. The Bernstein looks especially enticing.

That performance led by Lenny is included in this economy pack:

[asin]B001TKK39S[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 22, 2012, 05:55:23 AM

Quote from: Mirror Image on November 21, 2012, 07:41:21 PM
Thanks for the recommendations, but I prefer modern instruments to period instruments. There are many period instrument recordings that I do enjoy, but from a personal point-of-view I don't really see these HIP performances as preserving the past, I look at the whole movement as a way of trying to recreate the past, which looks good on paper and is an honorable pursuit, but many times I have found that HIP performances fall flat on my ears. Of course, there are always exceptions. I'm just giving you my general opinion about the subject.

Anyway, getting back to Haydn, he's my favorite Classical Era composer by far. I don't think I've ever heard one not from him that uninspired or mere note-spinning. The guy was incredible.

I wasn't making a philosophical statement, amigo, I'm saying that I like these the best. I don't care at all about philosophy, not my thing. I care about what things sound like to me. :) Which is why I agreed that you might like that Karajan, since it suits your taste. I don't think I would like it, although I don't go off at length telling you that, you know? :)

8)

PS - Be careful of that Spering, it's HIPper than hell! :o :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 22, 2012, 05:58:32 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 22, 2012, 04:26:50 AM
That performance led by Lenny is included in this economy pack:

[asin]B001TKK39S[/asin]

That box has really done you well, eh, Karl? Not surprised that his 'Creation' is fine; seems like he does a better than most job on the more spiritual stuff in general. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mirror Image on November 22, 2012, 06:07:44 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 22, 2012, 04:26:50 AM
That performance led by Lenny is included in this economy pack:

[asin]B001TKK39S[/asin]

I'll have to pick this set up at some point. Thanks, Karl.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on November 22, 2012, 08:34:11 AM

John, I'd urge you to at least consider the McCreesh recording. It's outstanding music making, and PI/non PI considerations don't enter into that. Of course, it may help that with this work, relatively large performing forces represent an "authentic period performance". I've got Lenny's other recording, on DG, and McCreesh beats the pants off that one by a wide margin.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 22, 2012, 11:33:58 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on November 22, 2012, 11:21:35 AM
The Creation has benefited from not a few PI recordings, I count at least five (maybe seven) others besides the McCreesh, and that's just what's on MOG:

Jacobs
Kuijken
Hickox
Gardiner
Weil
Hengelbrock (?)

And I think Martin Pearlman with the Boston Baroque is PI, but I could be wrong.

Jacobs and Kuijken are very good. Hickox, Weil and Gardiner are probably good as well since they usually do good work but I have not heard these recordings. Pearlman and Hengelbrock will be the ones I check out next since they are not familiar to me.

I've got Macreesh and Hogwood in English, and Kuijken, Spering, Jacobs, Harnoncourt & Gardiner in German. Ones that I've seen but not snapped up yet for various reasons (unrelated to their appeal) are Christie & Pearlman. I like Pearlman in some Bach, Handel, and also Mozart's Requiem (Levin completion). Boston Baroque are some fine players, and you aren't wrong, they are totally PI.

In truth, I've never heard of Hengelbrock.... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on November 22, 2012, 11:39:19 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on November 21, 2012, 06:40:43 PM
In looking around for those Manfred Huss discs I stumbled upon a series of piano concertos:

Haydn: Complete Piano Concertos (in three volumes)
Massimo Palumbo; Ernst Theis/Vienna Austrian Chamber Orchestra (Das Österreichische Kammerorchester)

[asin]B00005RCFE[/asin]

The playing and sound fooled me at first, I thought it was PI, and the playing is definitely HIP, but in doing more searching, the orchestra while a 18th century ensemble in focus plays modern instruments. The keyboard I thought might be a fortepiano since Palumbo has used one on occasion, but the credits on allmusic.com show him on piano. His playing is stylistically right in the pocket for this period, though, and it is nice to have all the works.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51oT3uGvUIL.jpg)

Yes, Palumbo sometimes plays the "pianoforte", but it's just because he is Italian. ;D ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on November 22, 2012, 11:43:19 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 22, 2012, 11:33:58 AM
In truth, I've never heard of Hengelbrock.... :-\

Then your wishlist needs an addition, Gurn.

Spering (on Naxos) is also exceptional. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 22, 2012, 12:06:04 PM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on November 22, 2012, 11:43:19 AM
Then your wishlist needs an addition, Gurn.

Spering (on Naxos) is also exceptional. :)

Yeah, I went ahead and looked it up and bought it already. I think I'll have a go at the Pearlman too. I'm needing to restrict my profligacy this month due to acquiring the Robbins-Landon book set. Temperance in all things; that's my motto. 0:) :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on November 22, 2012, 01:42:25 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on November 22, 2012, 01:08:28 PM
He recorded these, Ferdinando Carulli: Complete Works for Guitar & Fortepiano, which is why I thought he might be using that instrument on these recordings. But his piano merely sounds like it could be one at times.

[asin]B000A1L8DM[/asin]

I didn't recall that Palumbo was the fortepianist in that Carulli. I heard it one time when I bought the set several years ago, but clearly I need a new listen... Thanks for the reminder.

BTW, I found this on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/v/K_OeESV2GgQ

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on November 22, 2012, 02:21:16 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 22, 2012, 12:06:04 PM
Yeah, I went ahead and looked it up and bought it already. I think I'll have a go at the Pearlman too. I'm needing to restrict my profligacy this month due to acquiring the Robbins-Landon book set. Temperance in all things; that's my motto. 0:) :D

8)

Gurn, congrats on the Robbins-Landon book set. That is a set I've been keeping an eye on for years, someday I'll get it! I guess I should finish my recent batch of music books for the time being :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 22, 2012, 02:27:25 PM

Quote from: Leo K on November 22, 2012, 02:21:16 PM
Gurn, congrats on the Robbins-Landon book set. That is a set I've been keeping an eye on for years, someday I'll get it! I guess I should finish my recent batch of music books for the time being :)

Thanks, Leo, you know how much I've wanted that. It was misposted on AMP, as being only Vol. 1, and thus at a fairly high price for 1 book. Then in small letters at the bottom it said "this is the entire set of 5 volumes..." I was delighted, for sure!

I'm looking to sell my now extra Vol 3 at a good price; check it out in Buy/Sell/Trade! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 23, 2012, 05:10:24 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 22, 2012, 05:58:32 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 22, 2012, 04:26:50 AM
That performance led by Lenny is included in this economy pack:

[asin]B001TKK39S[/asin]
That box has really done you well, eh, Karl? Not surprised that his 'Creation' is fine; seems like he does a better than most job on the more spiritual stuff in general. :)

8)

As with the reissue of his NY Phil set of the Sibelius symphonies, Gurn, this "Papa"-pak has many an upside which may surprise a body!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on November 23, 2012, 06:10:20 AM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JO%2Bks7nEL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

The Seven Last Words of Christ on The Cross (choral version)

I contemplate this as an impending purchase. Any objections? :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2012, 06:12:33 AM

Quote from: Florestan on November 23, 2012, 06:10:20 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JO%2Bks7nEL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

The Seven Last Words of Christ on The Cross (choral version)

I contemplate this as an impending purchase. Any objections? :)

I would only buy it if I was looking for the best version available. Otherwise, well, any other would do. 0:) For you, amigo, it is the only real choice, IMO. :)

8)

PS - Of course, one BIG objection is that it is only the orchestral version, not choral... :-\

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2012, 06:16:19 AM

Here is your choral version:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/7lastwordsHarnoncourtcover.jpg)

or else this one:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn7LastWordsaccentuscover.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on November 23, 2012, 06:22:10 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2012, 06:12:33 AM
I would only buy it if I was looking for the best version available. Otherwise, well, any other would do. 0:) For you, amigo, it is the only real choice, IMO. :)

~~I contemplate this as an impending purchase.~~ Will definitely buy next week

Quote
PS - Of course, one BIG objection is that it is only the orchestral version, not choral... :-\

:( How come? On the back cover it reads something like "original choral version"... or was I blind yesterday when having it in my hands? ??? OTOH now that I think about it had it been choral it would have had the Capella Reial of Catalunya on the cover too, besides Le Concert des Nations.

I'll buy anyway. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2012, 06:26:31 AM

Quote from: Florestan on November 23, 2012, 06:22:10 AM
~~I contemplate this as an impending purchase.~~ Will definitely buy next week

:( How come? On the back cover it reads something like "original choral version"... or was I blind yesterday when having it in my hands? ??? OTOH now that I think about it had it been choral it would have had the Capella Reial of Catalunya on the cover too, besides Le Concert des Nations.

I'll buy anyway. :)

Yes, the singing is so inaudible as to be non-existent. :D :D

It's a thing of beauty, and Alia Vox paid attention to detail in the packaging too. I only have one other orchestral version, the Brüggen one, and as good as it is, it simply can't match the Savall. You will be pleased, I'm sure.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on November 23, 2012, 06:28:32 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2012, 06:26:31 AM
Yes, the singing is so inaudible as to be non-existent. :D :D

It's a thing of beauty, and Alia Vox paid attention to detail in the packaging too. I only have one other orchestral version, the Brüggen one, and as good as it is, it simply can't match the Savall. You will be pleased, I'm sure.

8)

Aha! :D :D

Thank you, Gurn, you were most helpful, as usual. :-*

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2012, 06:31:23 AM

Quote from: Florestan on November 23, 2012, 06:22:10 AM
:( How come? On the back cover it reads something like "original choral version"... or was I blind yesterday when having it in my hands? ??? OTOH now that I think about it had it been choral it would have had the Capella Reial of Catalunya on the cover too, besides Le Concert des Nations.

Well, the choral version is NOT the original. The orchestral version dates back to 1786, when it was composed on commission from Spain. The oratorio (choral) version was done exactly 10 years later, after Haydn returned from England. He heard that someone had set words to it, listened to it and didn't like it, so he had Von Sweiten to organize a libretto and did it himself. He added a few little things, like an introductory march, and the entire became wildly popular all over again. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2012, 06:32:32 AM

Quote from: Florestan on November 23, 2012, 06:28:32 AM
Aha! :D :D

Thank you, Gurn, you were most helpful, as usual. :-*

My pleasure, as always. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on November 23, 2012, 06:36:44 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2012, 06:31:23 AM
Well, the choral version is NOT the original. The orchestral version dates back to 1786, when it was composed on commission from Spain. The oratorio (choral) version was done exactly 10 years later, after Haydn returned from England. He heard that someone had set words to it, listened to it and didn't like it, so he had Von Sweiten to organize a libretto and did it himself. He added a few little things, like an introductory march, and the entire became wildly popular all over again. :)

8)

Very helpful. Now I remember: the back cover reads "original orchestral version".

Do the choral version add anything of import to the orchestral one?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on November 23, 2012, 06:38:05 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2012, 06:26:31 AM
It's a thing of beauty, and Alia Vox paid attention to detail in the packaging too. I only have one other orchestral version, the Brüggen one, and as good as it is, it simply can't match the Savall. You will be pleased, I'm sure.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2012, 06:16:19 AM
Here is your choral version:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/7lastwordsHarnoncourtcover.jpg)

or else this one:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn7LastWordsaccentuscover.jpg)

8)

It's curious, both the orchestral and the choral version have a version clearly superior to the remaining. Laurence Equilbey and her gang are excellent, but maybe excessively idiosyncratic compared to Harnoncourt.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on November 23, 2012, 06:41:03 AM

Quote from: Florestan on November 23, 2012, 06:36:44 AM
Do the choral version add anything of import to the orchestral one?

It should of course read "does". No wonder I have scored less than I expected in my exam for certified English-Romanian translator just 1 week ago. :(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2012, 06:41:37 AM

Quote from: Florestan on November 23, 2012, 06:36:44 AM
Very helpful. Now I remember: the back cover reads "original orchestral version".

Do the choral version add anything of import to the orchestral one?

Singing.

No, seriously, singing does make a difference. It entirely depends on your taste; either you like singing a lot or not so much. The underlying orchestral work is unchanged. In some cases the addition of a libretto is a negative effect on the music. In this case it does not. I am torn, I have always preferred instrumental music. However, this choral version is awfully good. IIRC, you are one who likes singing.... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on November 23, 2012, 06:43:30 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2012, 06:41:37 AM
IIRC, you are one who likes singing.... :-\

Yesss...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2012, 06:49:34 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on November 23, 2012, 06:38:05 AM
It's curious, both the orchestral and the choral version have a version clearly superior to the remaining. Laurence Equilbey and her gang are excellent, but maybe excessively idiosyncratic compared to Harnoncourt.

Yes, there is little doubt in MY mind; if I was buying them all over again, it would be Savall and Harnoncourt, the Kuijken 4tet and Brautigam. If I had to fall back one level though, Brüggen & Accentus, Mosaiques and Oort would work very well for me too... I'm not sure about idiosyncratic. You are probably correct, I take it as individual expression since it doesn't carry the negative context so much. You know, dating to back when it was a new piece of music, the parts have been found in churches of all Christian denominations in every country in Europe, so it was truly Christian Universal in that sense. So in terms of authenticity, probably a lot of accents can be placed there! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on November 23, 2012, 06:49:41 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2012, 06:41:37 AM
Singing.

No, seriously, singing does make a difference. It entirely depends on your taste; either you like singing a lot or not so much. The underlying orchestral work is unchanged. In some cases the addition of a libretto is a negative effect on the music. In this case it does not. I am torn, I have always preferred instrumental music. However, this choral version is awfully good. IIRC, you are one who likes singing.... :-\

8)

Well, if all must be said, the spoken words added to Savall's recording can be quite irritating.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on November 23, 2012, 06:52:09 AM

Well, then I'll rip the whole thing to mp3, remove the spoken parts and make a cd without. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2012, 06:53:43 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on November 23, 2012, 06:49:00 AM
The Savall does include spoken text in between the orchestral movements. I find this distracting and wish it were not there. If I had to choose between the orchestral version and the choral version I'd probably say the choral since if I wanted an instrumental version I prefer the string quartet above the orchestral. But the version I like least is the way Savall does it, with the spoken sections. The sound of his orchestra is arguably the best, however, which means the spoken sections are even more of an unfortunate aspect (imo).

Back when I had first gotten the disk, I ripped it to FLAC and eliminated those tracks, so I had quite forgotten they were there. IIRC, they are also in the score, they are the Latin words that actually ARE the Seven Last Words. Haydn wrote them right into the text. So they are hardly inappropriate, although they can be a distraction (I only listened to the disk itself one time). Brüggen commissioned a modern composer to write a few bars intermezzo between each sonata, so both versions have their distractions. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on November 23, 2012, 07:00:01 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2012, 06:53:43 AM
IIRC, they are also in the score, they are the Latin words that actually ARE the Seven Last Words. Haydn wrote them right into the text.

Then Savall is as HIP as it gets. I can hardly wait to hear it... :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2012, 07:05:38 AM

Quote from: Florestan on November 23, 2012, 07:00:01 AM
Then Savall is as HIP as it gets. I can hardly wait to hear it... :)

Yes, I double checked my memory against the booklet and that is exactly right. These words were spoken by a cantor as the procession moved from station to station within the darkened church. I am sure you are familiar with the little procession, heavy with incense, as they do the Good Friday Stations of the Cross. This music was an accompaniment to that procession. So absolutely, when used in that way, or recreating that aspect, they couldn't be more realistic than that! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on November 23, 2012, 07:19:06 AM

Just drive-by linking: http://www.medici.tv/#!/jordi-savall-haydn

Performed, a bit dramatically, if I may add, at the location of the work's première, the church of Santa Cueva in Cadiz, Spain.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2012, 07:27:04 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on November 23, 2012, 07:19:06 AM
Just drive-by linking: http://www.medici.tv/#!/jordi-savall-haydn

Performed, a bit dramatically, if I may add, at the location of the work's première, the church of Santa Cueva in Cadiz, Spain.

Thanks for that, Navneeth. I am likely to get that DVD. Nice to see a bit of it up front. I think the drama is a good thing, although YMMV. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on November 23, 2012, 07:35:40 AM

Quote from: Florestan on November 23, 2012, 06:52:09 AM
Well, then I'll rip the whole thing to mp3, remove the spoken parts and make a cd without. :D

Rip it just to the wave files, there is no reason to lose the sound quality.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on November 23, 2012, 07:37:37 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2012, 07:27:04 AM
Thanks for that, Navneeth. I am likely to get that DVD. Nice to see a bit of it up front. I think the drama is a good thing, although YMMV. :)

8)

... although musically it doesn't add anything at all to the CD. The only additional value is to see the performers actually performing because even the Church itself it's a bit disappointing. :(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2012, 07:46:43 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on November 23, 2012, 07:38:13 AM
Another video I saw while checking out the Savall is "Celebrating Haydn" narrated by Peter Ustinov

The famous actor and music-lover leads us through the life and works of the great artist, Joseph Haydn. In film sequences, concert recordings and pictures, you will have the pleasure to make the acquaintance of this extraordinary man ! It is thanks to this musician that we have brilliant musical performances like Die Schöpfung.

This one also looks very interesting.

Yes, I have that on VHS, taped from the TV about 10 years ago. I thought it was very interesting and informative for a TV show. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 23, 2012, 07:49:39 AM

I could easily make Haydn a day-after-Thanksgiving listening tradition!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2012, 07:53:58 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on November 23, 2012, 07:37:37 AM
... although musically it doesn't add anything at all to the CD. The only additional value is to see the performers actually performing because even the Church itself it's a bit disappointing. :(

True enough. I've always enjoyed having a visual to go along with though. It's like watching a concert DVD; I may have the same soundtrack on CD, but I always enjoy the DVD more. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2012, 07:54:37 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 23, 2012, 07:49:39 AM
I could easily make Haydn a day-after-Thanksgiving listening tradition!

I already did! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 23, 2012, 08:07:22 AM

Yes, O Pathfinder! : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2012, 08:15:27 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 23, 2012, 08:07:22 AM
Yes, O Pathfinder! : )

:D Of course, just waking up in the morning is a good reason to listen to some Haydn.... :)

My 5 Robbins-Landon books just arrived, I need to go see how well they shipped. And maybe read a couple. I'll be back! ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2012, 08:26:42 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on November 23, 2012, 08:22:05 AM
I am very envious of your acquisition of those books! ;) I hope to find them through my library.

Congratulations and I know you will truly appreciate them and get many years of enjoyment from them. And of course share the knowledge with the humble Haus-volk.

:)

Thanks, San. It took several years of patient searching to find a set I could afford. Unlike you big city folk down in San Antonio, we backwoods Texans don't have a library of note. I also hope you get access to a set. I really enjoyed and learned a lot from the 1 volume I already had. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 11, 2012, 05:34:09 AM

Dudes, how did da Haus drift to p. 2?! Whiskey Tango Foxtrot! : )

Actually via a Prokofiev discussion, I fetched in a Святослав Теофилович (Svyatoslav Teofilovich Richter) recital disc from October 1961, a Vanguard Classic release which lists the E^b sonata (Hob.XVI/49) as Opus 66.

Do we have a rational list of the piano sonatas with their (at times conflicting?) designations?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 11, 2012, 06:17:20 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 11, 2012, 05:34:09 AM
Dudes, how did da Haus drift to p. 2?! Whiskey Tango Foxtrot! : )

Actually via a Prokofiev discussion, I fetched in a Святослав Теофилович (Svyatoslav Teofilovich Richter) recital disc from October 1961, a Vanguard Classic release which lists the E^b sonata (Hob.XVI/49) as Opus 66.

Do we have a rational list of the piano sonatas with their (at times conflicting?) designations?

The Opus numbers have drifted into irrelevance, much like Schubert's. That might be an Artaria number since he was dealing with them at around that time, but could be the British publisher (Longman & Broderip) or even the French. It seems I have posted a list of Hob 16 numbers here along with their correlative Landon numbers (more chronological). I'll check tonight, and if not, then I will. Meanwhile, the Wiki entry on the keyboard sonatas lists the Landon/Hoboken concordance. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 11, 2012, 06:21:24 AM

And of course, it should not surprise me that in Richter's day, the Opus numbers had not drifted off into their well-deserved obscurity, yet : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on December 13, 2012, 06:06:52 PM

Speaking of catalogues, any fragments out there that deserve our attention Gurnsters?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on December 13, 2012, 07:08:37 PM

A survey of the piano sonatas now under way. Disc #136 from the Brilliant Brick,
HOB XVI:41
HOB XVI:16
HOB XVI:2
HOB XVI:32
HOB XVI:46

All Bart van Oort on the fortepiano (Maene).

Worth a look here:

http://shelf3d.com/K1RTX7RopVg#Bart Van Oort - Fortepiano Dedication Concert (Solo Excerpts Highlight)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on December 13, 2012, 08:58:57 PM

Quote from: Bogey on December 13, 2012, 07:08:37 PM
A survey of the piano sonatas now under way. Disc #136 from the Brilliant Brick,
HOB XVI:41
HOB XVI:16
HOB XVI:2
HOB XVI:32
HOB XVI:46

All Bart van Oort on the fortepiano (Maene).

Worth a look here:

http://shelf3d.com/K1RTX7RopVg#Bart Van Oort - Fortepiano Dedication Concert (Solo Excerpts Highlight)

Hob 2 is one of my favourite sonatas by Haydn. Is this his earliest keyboard masterpiece?

Is it a harpsichord sonata? I guess there are no problems about playing it on a single keyboard.

Sv. Richter plays Hob 2 very nicely.

One sonata I've really started to get nto recently is Hob 36. Someone put me on to Bavouzet's performance, which is extremely refined. I think I prefer Beghin, especially in the first movement, despite (or maybe because of) the lumbering phrasing. The first movement especially seems to benefit from the colours of the older instrument. At first I thought Beghin's way with it was comedic, but now I'm not so sure.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 15, 2012, 08:28:33 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on November 25, 2012, 09:40:56 AM
In his Virtual Haydn Tom Beghin records some ofthe music on instruments tuned unequally, including the Sauschneider Capriccio,which he writes about extensively in the liner notes, saying inter alia:

". . . a unique Capriccio on
the folk tune "Acht Sauschneider müssen sein," Hob. XVII :1 (1765). Standardization—
whether it relates to tuning, instrument, notation, rhetoric, or performance—is definitely
not the keyword here. . .

For the Capriccio, we deliberately chose to tune the harpsichord in a quarter-comma
mean tone temperament. This tuning, though referred to as the "old" system, was
still explained in an 1805 Viennese tuning manual. Certain extant organs or fretted
clavichords confirm that the temperament was used well into the eighteenth century.
The unavoidable "wolf's fifth" in our tuning is between E-flat and G-sharp. The pain, as
I play my first D-sharp, is excruciating. It's not the howling of a wolf, but (enough with
decorum!) the squealing of a pig."

And please, don't forget that the likelihood of the 'squealing pig' tuning being valid is strongly bolstered by the famous Haydn humor, since the full title of the thematic folk tune (in English) is 'It takes 8 strong men to castrate a hog'. Thus the squealing. If one doesn't know that, it strongly detracts from the joke. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 15, 2012, 09:26:18 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on December 15, 2012, 08:43:39 AM

This famous Haydn humour that Gurn mentions. Is that how people saw him in his own time -- as a funny man? I really could do with a good book on his reception history.

Yes, it is. In his homeland it was much appreciated, since Austria was culturally like that. In Germany, he was either damned with faint praise or outright reviled as a clown. Any of his biographies will more or less discuss this. A book specifically dealing with his reception history will be harder to locate.

In The Cambridge Companion to Haydn there is an essay by Scott Burnham called Haydn & Humor that discusses in detail some of his musical jokes. I can't remember if it touches on things like "Acht Sauschneider..." or not. Gretchen Wheelock has a very highly regarded book that dwells specifically on Haydn and humor. I don't have it so I can't comment, but it is frequently cited. I would certainly expect to find something there.

Anyway, past discussions (usually involving Florestan) that deal with the audience for Haydn's music will point out that his audience 'got' his humor very much. Most of his audience today, probably less so, since a lot of musical water has passed under the bridge since then.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on December 16, 2012, 12:12:29 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 15, 2012, 09:26:18 AM
Yes, it is. In his homeland it was much appreciated, since Austria was culturally like that. In Germany, he was either damned with faint praise or outright reviled as a clown. Any of his biographies will more or less discuss this. A book specifically dealing with his reception history will be harder to locate.

In The Cambridge Companion to Haydn there is an essay by Scott Burnham called Haydn & Humor that discusses in detail some of his musical jokes. I can't remember if it touches on things like "Acht Sauschneider..." or not. Gretchen Wheelock has a very highly regarded book that dwells specifically on Haydn and humor. I don't have it so I can't comment, but it is frequently cited. I would certainly expect to find something there.

Anyway, past discussions (usually involving Florestan) that deal with the audience for Haydn's music will point out that his audience 'got' his humor very much. Most of his audience today, probably less so, since a lot of musical water has passed under the bridge since then.

8)

I may well dig into this whole issue a bit. One of the things which attracts me to Haydn's music is the way he sometimes moves unexpectedly from poignancy to comedy. You can hear what I mean in the way Beghin plays Hob 20/I.

I can see that humour forms a central part of his musical personality, as long as it's acknowledged that he was using it to shock and surprise rather than to amuse. In fact I'd always thought that contemporary criticism focused on Haydn's originality, the strangeness of his music, rather than the comedy. I know that the early biographers were keen to present Haydn as a happy old man with a genial sense of humour. But they weren't written until after he had died, and the authors may have had their own agendas about how they wanted the world to see Haydn the man, and that influenced what they said about his music.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 16, 2012, 06:41:55 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on December 16, 2012, 12:12:29 AM
I may well dig into this whole issue a bit. One of the things which attracts me to Haydn's music is the way he sometimes moves unexpectedly from poignancy to comedy. You can hear what I mean in the way Beghin plays Hob 20/I.

I can see that humour forms a central part of his musical personality, as long as it's acknowledged that he was using it to shock and surprise rather than to amuse. In fact I'd always thought that contemporary criticism focused on Haydn's originality, the strangeness of his music, rather than the comedy. I know that the early biographers were keen to present Haydn as a happy old man with a genial sense of humour. But they weren't written until after he had died, and the authors may have had their own agendas about how they wanted the world to see Haydn the man, and that influenced what they said about his music.

It is difficult to draw conclusions about what Haydn himself thought of his jokes. Obviously he knew it was coming, so he didn't share in the shock and awe which prevailed in the listeners, but their reactions amused the hell out of him. A couple of his contemporary biographers (Griesinger and Dies) mention his habit of telling stories about things like that and still stopping and laughing about it even many years later. I agree with you about people with their own agendas putting slants on things that favor themselves or their own philosophies rather than those of who they are writing about. From what I have read about Haydn written by contemporary sources, I would say this; he was genial and he had a sense of humor which was constantly on display. However, one of those things is not necessarily a modifier of the other. Just because the man is genial, doesn't mean his wit is.

Anyway, I think you will find it interesting to research this topic. Especially if you broaden it out beyond just the music itself to get a sense of the man. That will give you some context for enjoyment. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 16, 2012, 09:20:37 AM

Haydn Baryton Octets

Some of the more interesting and least known works in Haydn's oeuvre belong in Hoboken 10, the works for Baryton and diverse instruments. Although it has been used as a catchall for baryton works that don't fit elsewhere, like the Duo for 2 Barytons and the wonderful Quintet for Baryton Trio & 2 Horns, the true stars of the category are the 7 'Divertimenti a otto voci' for Baryton, 2 Horns, 2 Violins, Viola, Cello & Violone. Composed in 1775, they represent several 'lasts' for Haydn;

The last works for Baryton.
The last time Haydn would use 'sonata di chiesa' form.
The last works he composed for high horns.
The last true divertimentos he wrote.

They were also a few beginnings;

The first divertimenti in 15 years.
The beginning of a new style of occasional music which would later include the works for lira organizzate among others.
The first works (by Haydn and maybe by anyone) to use the lowest registers on the horn, the added textures of which would become a hallmark of his late works.

They were also among the very first legitimately published works (by Artaria in 1781) which opened a window, perhaps, on the private lifestyle of the Prince and his Kapellmeister. For publication, Haydn rewrote the baryton part for flute, but neither he nor Artaria seemed at all concerned that the horn parts were among the most difficult ever written. :)

The Works
Hob 10 # Key
1 D
2 D
3 a
4 G
5 G
6 A
12 G
All scored for Baryton, 2 Horns, 2 Violins, Viola, Cello & Violone.

All seven pieces have 3 movements, arranged like so;

Hob 1 (Artaria #5) in D major
I Allegro moderato
II Adagio
III Rondo: Presto

Hob 2 (#1) in D major
I Allegro moderato
II Adagio
III Thema con variazioni: Allegro

Hob 3 (#3) in a minor
I Adagio
II Allegro
III Allegretto

Hob 4 (#4) in G major
I Thema con variazioni: Moderato
II Adagio
III Tempo di Menuetto

Hob 5 (#2) in G major
I Adagio
II Allegro
III Finale: Presto

Hob 6 (#6) in A major
I Moderato
II Adagio
III Finale: [Allegro]

Hob 12 (#7) in G major
I Moderato
II Adagio
III Presto

Notice that #2 & 3 (Hob 3 & 5) are the only two that use a slow introduction. These are in the old Sonata di Chiesa form that Haydn inherited from the Baroque church music that he grew up with. They represent the last time he used this form, a long tradition that he had carried forward with him since the beginning, reaching a peak (IMO) in Symphony #49 in f minor, La passione of 1768. All the other five follow the pattern 'fast – slow – fast or very fast'.

There is no record, or even a hint, that Haydn composed any baryton music after this. In 1776, at 61 years old, Prince Nicholas quit performing. This was also the year that the Esterháza Opera began to produce works full-tilt. So Nicholas clearly didn't give up on music, he merely changed his focus. It also marked the year that the great horn player, Carl Frantz, who had inspired Haydn to some of the finest writing for horn ever, left Esterháza for good.

The Recordings
I have three sets of these works. Possibly there are more, I'm not sure beyond saying that I haven't seen any.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/RicercarIcover.jpg) + (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/RicercarIIcover.jpg) = (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/JosephHaydnSamtlicheBarytonOctette.jpg)
The Ricercar Consort on Ricercar

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Huss8tetesKSvol1.jpg) + (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Huss8tetesKSvol2.jpg) = (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnEsterhazyNaplescover.jpg)

The Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Manfred Huss on BIS, formerly on Koch/Schwann

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Completebarytontrioscover.jpg)

The Esterházy Ensemble \ Piccolo Concerto Wien on Brilliant

All three are played on period instruments, and all three include the lovely Quintetto in D for Baryton Trio & 2 Horns, Hob 10:10. Of course, the Esterházy Ensemble set, whether you buy the box of 21 or The Big Box, comes with all of the extant baryton works, a bonus that can't be duplicated elsewhere.

I've been listening to all three sets for the last week, trying to find an edge for one set over the others. There are some things about this music which separate it from other baryton works. For example, if you have been listening to the trios a lot, you remember that there are various fugue and other counterpoint effects that crop up fairly often. In the octets, not so much, since the texture of the greater number of instruments would tend to make that blend in too much to be able to produce an effect. Also, the baryton music doesn't indicate any plucking of the resonating strings. For one thing, it would be difficult to hear plucks other than in totally exposed solos, and then, the large number of tenor and alto voices will already be making the resonating strings... resonate!

I think it is important to point out that while these are called 'Baryton Octets' (although not by Haydn), they are really Horn Octets. Despite the fact that all the instruments get their share, if you approach these as a showcase for horns, you won't be disappointed.
And that is where it becomes difficult to pick which set to have. All three are superb.

As far as playing goes, and conducting, it's pretty much a draw. I think that if there is a tie-breaker it is in the recorded sound. The newest set is the Esterházy / Piccolo Concerto Wien set on Brilliant. PCW is a great favorite of mine (try their disk of Haydn's early string quartets which also use a violone instead of a cello) and here they show out to advantage. The violone blends into the ensemble more smoothly than the alternative double baß, and yet these recordings still show it to advantage. The bass lines in these works are all played by the cello and violone but often have the low horn helping out. It is great to hear the bass line as something more than just a deep rumble down there!

In any case, I think that your choice could come down to how much music you are looking to acquire. If you want the entire baryton oeuvre, then the Brilliant set is the way to go.

If you are looking for a nice variety of divertimento works, with some rarities like the Six Scherzandi and the Notturnos for the King of Naples, then the BIS offering is a wonderful choice. (if you are stubborn AND wealthy, you can look for the original Koch/Schwann disks, but then you lose the superior BIS remastering)

Finally, if you just want the Octets and Quintet, you can hardly do better than the Ricercar. It is wonderfully well-played, and the set I finally chose in my full review set for 1775.

Please consider giving these a listen. No regrets, I'll bet. If you want to hear the best Tafelmusik ever, and get an inside look at what it sounded like to dine with a Prince, here's your chance. :)

Please discuss.... ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on December 17, 2012, 02:31:14 AM

Quote
If you want to hear the best Tafelmusik ever, and get an inside look at what it sounded like to dine with a Prince, here's your chance.

Was the music played during or after the dinner? If the former, then I can imagine the talk: Have another glass of champagne, my dear count! This frommage is absolutely delicious, cher prince! Oh, and that lovely sound in the corner! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 17, 2012, 04:12:55 AM

Quote from: Florestan on December 17, 2012, 02:31:14 AM
Was the music played during or after the dinner? If the former, then I can imagine the talk: Have another glass of champagne, my dear count! This frommage is absolutely delicious, cher prince! Oh, and that lovely sound in the corner! ;D

I've thought about that, and given what I've read of Nicholas' personality, I don't think he would have let a lot come between him and the music. This wasn't France, after all.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on December 25, 2012, 10:29:18 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 22, 2011, 05:53:28 PM
Purchases Today (transplanted :D )

Just received these 2 in today's post. Listening to the symphonies now;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSymphony414449Arioncover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnBarytonTriosRicercarcover.jpg)

I had seen reviews of these here and there, enough to pique my curiosity. The Arion Baroque, led here by harpsichordist Gary Cooper, are indeed a 'real size' ensemble, in this case employing 17 musicians, which is very likely to be the precise number in the Esterhazy band at the time these works were composed (1768-71). Despite Mr. Hogwood's protestations, Cooper plays a harpsichord continuo. The justification for using a 3rd viola comes from Haydn's famous written instructions for the performance of the cantata "Applausus" from 1767, in which he urges the use of an extra viola to support the inner (instrumental) voices which frequently need it more than the upper and lower ones. In addition, since trumpets and timpani were only added on at the time of publication and didn't exist in the original autograph score of #41, they aren't used here in it either. The result is rather stunning actually. Whereas in every version (many!) that I've heard, one must struggle to pick out the amazing C maj Alto horns from the trumpets, here they stand out in a stark beauty that must be heard to be appreciated. I must admit, I am absolutely delighted so far (though still only in #44, another winner!). This is very HIP, unless you already really like PI and all it can do, you may be brought up short when you first hear it, esp. #41. :)

The baryton trio disk (well, I needed another one :D ) promises, by all I've read, to also be a winner. The barytonist, Balestracci, is reputed to be an actual virtuoso on the instrument. How rare is that? We'll see shortly. The liner notes were highly interesting with a brief discussion of actually playing the instrument. I can't remember any baryton disk that went that direction before. Hope it lives up to my expectations, I'll let you know tomorrow. :)

8)

Under the tree:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSymphony414449Arioncover.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 25, 2012, 11:35:49 AM

Quote from: Bogey on December 25, 2012, 10:29:18 AM
Under the tree:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSymphony414449Arioncover.jpg)

Ah, and have you given it a spin yet, Bill? Merry Christmas to you and Mrs. Bill. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on December 25, 2012, 08:04:35 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 25, 2012, 11:35:49 AM
Ah, and have you given it a spin yet, Bill? Merry Christmas to you and Mrs. Bill. :)

8)

Just finished a meal of prime rib, garlic mashed pot., Yorkshire pudding and now for a spin. Absolutely a beautiful way to pause between dinner and deseart. :) And a Merry Christmas to you, my friend!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 26, 2012, 04:33:49 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on December 26, 2012, 03:00:06 AM
Not sure if this totally fulfills the demands of this thread - but since Haydn's name appears in the title, I'm posting about it here. I found what appears to be an interesting recording while looking for Monica Huggett discs:

Haydn and the Gypsies: Solo and Chamber Music in Style Hongrois

[asin]B00004SVIA[/asin]

:)

I've been looking at that one for a while, San. It's just excerpts from the works, is that not so? Still, that's some of the most intriguing music that Haydn wrote. I just might break down if you sat it's good. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 26, 2012, 05:29:35 AM

Lo stile ungherese

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 26, 2012, 09:44:44 AM

Hi Gurn - thanks again for another excellent 'essay' - I've really enjoyed the Haydn Baryton Works over the years - I do have Huss in a 5-CD box of the Early Divertimenti which is fun but includes largely Hob. II pieces. Of the performances shown, I do own two in your collection, and also have the additional disc inserted (right), which has but just 2 of the baryton octets (3 & 12 in your list).

Now I've never done a 'back to back' comparison the the Ricercar Consrot w/ the octets in the BIG box, but have enjoyed both sets for performances. Dave :)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 16, 2012, 09:20:37 AM
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/JosephHaydnSamtlicheBarytonOctette.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-B3B7K7x/0/O/Haydn_Baryton1.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-TLXLbpW/0/O/Haydn_LireOrganizzate.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 26, 2012, 09:54:22 AM

Pardon my non-participation, I always lurk with interest.

Just wanted to note that I am converting one of my good and deserving siblings to near-Haydnista status . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 26, 2012, 09:55:21 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on December 26, 2012, 09:44:44 AM
Hi Gurn - thanks again for another excellent 'essay' - I've really enjoyed the Haydn Baryton Works over the years - I do have Huss in a 5-CD box of the Early Divertimenti which is fun but includes largely Hob. II pieces. Of the performances shown, I do own two in your collection, and also have the additional disc inserted (right), which has but just 2 of the baryton octets (3 & 12 in your list).

Now I've never done a 'back to back' comparison the the Ricercar Consrot w/ the octets in the BIG box, but have enjoyed both sets for performances. Dave :)

Thanks, Dave, glad you enjoyed it. I have that 'Delirium' disk too, and also this one;

[asin]B002HIELX0[/asin]

which has 3 octets and the quintet. For the purpose of that essay I was looking at the complete sets, however, both of these partial sets are well worth owning. Esp. that 'Delirium' disk which has such wonderful lire organizatta playing on it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on December 26, 2012, 09:57:21 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 26, 2012, 09:54:22 AM
Just wanted to note that I am converting one of my good and deserving siblings to near-Haydnista status . . . .

And the others simply have to rough it out with Stockhausen? :( ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 26, 2012, 09:59:20 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 26, 2012, 09:54:22 AM
Pardon my non-participation, I always lurk with interest.

Just wanted to note that I am converting one of my good and deserving siblings to near-Haydnista status . . . .

Well, when he is ready to emerge, by all means have him report in. We will be delighted! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on December 27, 2012, 05:47:52 PM

Reporting in simply to note that when I came home round the midnight hour last night I found my packages from Amazon France and Amazon Spain on the doorstep, which means I now have in my possession the Aoelian string quartet cycle, although it will be a while before it gets its turn in the CD player. (Among other things, the Amazon France package was the Karajan Ring, so there's a lot of competition going on in the CD stacks.) Along with it was a 10 CD set of Menuhin concerto recordings, one of which turns out to be Hob. VII: 1.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 27, 2012, 05:57:15 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 27, 2012, 05:47:52 PM
Reporting in simply to note that when I came home round the midnight hour last night I found my packages from Amazon France and Amazon Spain on the doorstep, which means I now have in my possession the Aoelian string quartet cycle, although it will be a while before it gets its turn in the CD player. (Among other things, the Amazon France package was the Karajan Ring, so there's a lot of competition going on in the CD stacks.) Along with it was a 10 CD set of Menuhin concerto recordings, one of which turns out to be Hob. VII: 1.

I read mixed reviews of that cycle, Jeffrey. It will be interesting to hear about it from someone whose tastes I am familiar with. Carry on. :)

Curious when you get 'round to it, when did Menuhin record that Haydn? Like in 1935 or in 1975? Also what you think of it too. :)

Cheers,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on December 27, 2012, 06:56:28 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 27, 2012, 05:57:15 PM
I read mixed reviews of that cycle, Jeffrey. It will be interesting to hear about it from someone whose tastes I am familiar with. Carry on. :)

Curious when you get 'round to it, when did Menuhin record that Haydn? Like in 1935 or in 1975? Also what you think of it too. :)

Cheers,
8)

I can give you the Menuhin recording date easily--1963, with Himself conducting the Bath Festival Orchestra.

As to a listen--well, I have hopes of hearing these two sometime before next Christmas :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on December 29, 2012, 11:25:52 PM

I'd like to explore the Haydn/ CPE Bach relation a bit. Can anyone suggest some easily accessible not too technical reading?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 30, 2012, 06:32:51 PM

The Creation / Die Schöpfung
Oratorio – Hoboken XXI:2
Composed 1796-98
Music - Joseph Haydn
Libretto – Gottfried van Sweiten (German & English)
The players: S / T / B, Chorus, 3 Flutes, 2 Oboes, 2 Clarinets, 2 Bassoons, Double Bassoon, 2 Horns, 2 Trumpets, 3 Trombones, Timpani, Strings & Basso continuo.
First Public Performance: The Burgtheater in Vienna. 180 players including 120 instrumentalists and 60 choristers.

Just before Haydn left England for the last time, in 1795, his friend and host, J.P. Salomon, gave him a libretto that he had on hand. It was clearly based on the creation story in the King James Bible and Milton's "Paradise Lost". Salomon told Haydn that the libretto had been originally written for Handel, but in the event, it had never been set. The author is anonymous, and the original of the libretto is apparently gone forever.

Van Sweiten was both a tremendous patron of music in Vienna (he was vitally important to Mozart and Beethoven as well as being Haydn's biggest fan in the city) as well as a man of letters. This quote from later years tells his attitude well; "I recognized at once that such an exalted subject would give Haydn the opportunity that I had long desired, to show the full compass of his profound accomplishments and to express the full power of his inexhaustible genius". A man who recognized genius well enough to know that he wasn't just overcome with it himself! But good at what he did, and possessed of much power in Vienna at a time when that was a scarce commodity.

Given that neither Haydn nor Van Sweiten was a strong English speaker, a good reason for the length of time it took to get the project completed is that from the very beginning, Haydn was determined that the English version would be released simultaneously with the German one. Van Sweiten had little problem translating the original, and the German version proceeded apace. But for some reason, the original wasn't used for the English version, instead, the German version was translated back into English! And a rather clumsy English at that, as you would expect. A fine example "The marv'lous work beholds amazed The glorious hierarchy of heav'n"... huh?? :D But the fact is that nearly all oratorios, even the greatest of them, share a certain mode of speech. They aren't meant to be read as poetry, but rather to be listened to, and in this they succeed very well. I think that the "corrections" that we will see in Macreesh's libretto (more on this later) are fine for reading purposes, exemplary in fact, but not really needed for singing/listening. Just my opinion. Haydn was delighted with the German translation in any case and it stirred him to some of his most sublime creative efforts. Most of the criticism that Van Sweiten has received over the years (since the beginning, actually) comes from people who never had to compose a long singing text in two languages before the music was even written (clearly this differs from translating a completed work from one language to another).

For those who don't know this work, a basic outline is that it is in 3 acts, arranged thus;

Act 1 First Day: Creation of Heaven & Earth & light
Second Day: Division of the waters
Third Day: land & sea; plants
Fourth Day: Sun, moon & Stars
Act 2 Fifth Day: Birds & Fish
Sixth Day: Beasts; man & woman
Act 3 Adam & Eve's awakening
Adam & Eve's mutual love

These 'day periods' are each capped by a chorus of praise by the angels. So this creates a sort of structure for the entire, recitative and aria (or duet or trio), more recitative, finally a chorus.

As is not uncommon for the period, although it was rapidly falling into disfavor at the time, there is a considerable amount of 'tone painting', which is to say, music imitating nature. I personally find it to be quite discreet and actually no distraction, especially since Haydn was quite ingenious at executing it in a realistic yet unobtrusive way. It was this feature in particular, however, which caused the work to fall into disfavor with the Romantic generation. They were essentially unable to refrain from applying their own rules and tastes to earlier generations. Their loss, I'm afraid.

Some recordings
Die Schöpfung now happens to be one of the most popular subjects for recordings beginning in the latter half of the 20th century. The next essay will begin a comparison of the virtues of these 10 PI recordings that I currently have on my shelves. I hope you will find it interesting, and maybe pick up a set or two for yourself. :)

In English:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHogwoodCreationcover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnCreationMcCreeshcover.jpg)

In German:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSperingSchpfungcover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnCreationJacobscover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnCreationGardinerGermancover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHarnoncourtCreationcover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHengelbrockSchpfungcover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnCreationWeilGermancover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnCreationKuijkenGermancover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnChristieSchpfungcover.jpg)

Always interested in feedback, and in any further PI recordings that I may have failed to come across previously.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 31, 2012, 04:34:32 AM

Quote from: O Gurn. . . But for some reason, the original wasn't used for the English version, instead, the German version was translated back into English! And a rather clumsy English at that, as you would expect.

Tangentially . . . exactly this sort of thing happened in the case of Rakhmaninov's The Bells. That is, the composer set Konstantin Balmont's evocative Russian translation of Poe; and when Melodiya released a certain recording on LP, the English version on the reverse of the jacket was not Poe's original, but a re-translation back from Balmont's text.

Laughable, why, yes.

But, thanks to you, dear fellow, nice to know that there is such stellar precedent : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 31, 2012, 06:52:49 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on December 29, 2012, 11:25:52 PM
I'd like to explore the Haydn/ CPE Bach relation a bit. Can anyone suggest some easily accessible not too technical reading?

Well, I cannot be of much help regarding a lengthy discussion of their relationship or the details of CPE Bach's influence on Haydn except to know that he indeed was an important one (as Bach was on other composers of the latter half of the 18th century) - a brief quote below from HERE (http://theoryofmusic.wordpress.com/2008/08/21/cpe-bach%E2%80%99s-influence-on-haydn/) is just a little more revealing - this extract is from AC Dies' Biographische Nachrichten von Joseph Haydn (Vienna, 1810); this book in English translation is available on Amazon (and probably in local specialized libraries?) - maybe some of our Haydn scholars, such as Gurn, can add some more in depth comments. Dave :)

QuoteHaydn ventured into a bookshop and asked for a good textbook on theory. The bookseller named the writings of Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach as the best and most recent. Haydn wanted to look and see for himself. He began to read, he understood, found what he was looking for, paid for the book, and took it away thoroughly pleased.
That Haydn sought to make Bach s principles his own, that he studied them untiringly, is apparent even in his youthful works from that period. From his nineteenth year Haydn wrote quartets which gave him a reputation among lovers of music as a profound genius, so quickly had he learnt. As time went on, he acquired Bach s later writings. In his opinion Bach's writings form the best, most thorough and most useful textbook ever published.
As soon as Haydn s musical output became available in print, Bach noted with pleasure that he could count Haydn among his pupils. He later paid Haydn a flattering compliment; that Haydn alone had understood [Bach's] writings completely and had known how to make use of them.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 31, 2012, 07:10:38 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on December 31, 2012, 06:52:49 AM
Well, I cannot be of much help regarding a lengthy discussion of their relationship or the details of CPE Bach's influence on Haydn except to know that he indeed was an important one (as Bach was on other composers of the latter half of the 18th century) - a brief quote below from HERE (http://theoryofmusic.wordpress.com/2008/08/21/cpe-bach%E2%80%99s-influence-on-haydn/) is just a little more revealing - this extract is from AC Dies' Biographische Nachrichten von Joseph Haydn (Vienna, 1810); this book in English translation is available on Amazon (and probably in local specialized libraries?) - maybe some of our Haydn scholars, such as Gurn, can add some more in depth comments. Dave :)

Quote from: Mandryka on December 29, 2012, 11:25:52 PM
I'd like to explore the Haydn/ CPE Bach relation a bit. Can anyone suggest some easily accessible not too technical reading?

Your post pretty much summed it up, Dave. I can't think of any book that fits the criteria that Mandrake proposes. Haydn's statement to Dies, and another which refers to, not "The True Art of Playing the Keyboard", but to a set of 6 sonatas (not known which they were) which he found in a shop and was so fascinated by that he couldn't stop until he had mastered them, are about the only direct evidence of the CPE ---> Haydn relationship.

Now, inferentially I have determined that such books as this one;

[asin]0226768139[/asin]

discuss the topic (that fact has been referred to elsewhere), but having read a couple of essays by Somfai, I can state with near certainty that this won't live up to the "not too technical" aspect! Everything he writes is too technical for me!!

In short, I don't think there IS a book that would satisfy anything less than a master musician. Maybe one day.... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 31, 2012, 07:16:26 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 31, 2012, 04:34:32 AM
Tangentially . . . exactly this sort of thing happened in the case of Rakhmaninov's The Bells. That is, the composer set Konstantin Balmont's evocative Russian translation of Poe; and when Melodiya released a certain recording on LP, the English version on the reverse of the jacket was not Poe's original, but a re-translation back from Balmont's text.

Laughable, why, yes.

But, thanks to you, dear fellow, nice to know that there is such stellar precedent : )

:) Interesting factoid, Karl.

Milton's verse already was known for its unusual sentence construction (of the "throw the horse over the fence some hay" type), so you can figure that translating into German, which would be at home with what English-speakers think of as unusual construction, and then back again by a non-English speaker who was apparently too proud to ask for help, and the result can be... stilted? However, there must have been a method to it, since for purposes of setting to music, it falls quite nicely. :)

Someone answer those damned Bells! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 31, 2012, 07:27:02 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on December 29, 2012, 11:25:52 PM
I'd like to explore the Haydn/ CPE Bach relation a bit. Can anyone suggest some easily accessible not too technical reading?

Although to continue my earlier reply, if you have this book (shame on you if you don't!);

[asin]0393317129[/asin]

Rosen does do some contrasting and relationship studying. I had quite forgotten that. It IS a bit technical for me, but that doesn't mean it is for you. I eventually worked it out, I know you can. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on December 31, 2012, 07:58:24 AM

Somewhat tangentially (although of course Haydn did write an Orlando opera for Esterhaza):

An entry from the diary of Sir Walter Scott, regarding the translation of Ariosto's Orlando Furioso by his friend
William Stuart Rose:

Sam made us merry with an account of some part of Rose's Ariosto, proposed that the Italian should be printed on the other side for the sake of assisting the indolent reader to understand English; and complained of his having used more than once the phrase of a lady having "voided her saddle".

(taken from the prefatory matter of Guido Waldman's prose translation of O.F., published by OUP in 1974).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 31, 2012, 08:00:05 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 31, 2012, 07:58:24 AM
Somewhat tangentially (although of course Haydn did write an Orlando opera for Esterhaza):

An entry from the diary of Sir Walter Scott, regarding the translation of Ariosto's Orlando Furioso by his friend
William Stuart Rose:

Sam made us merry with an account of some part of Rose's Ariosto, proposed that the Italian should be printed on the other side for the sake of assisting the indolent reader to understand English; and complained of his having used more than once the phrase of a lady having "voided her saddle".

(taken from the prefatory matter of Guido Waldman's prose translation of O.F., published by OUP in 1974).

:D That's funny, now... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 31, 2012, 09:44:39 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 31, 2012, 07:10:38 AM
Your post pretty much summed it up, Dave. I can't think of any book that fits the criteria that Mandrake proposes. Haydn's statement to Dies, and another which refers to, not "The True Art of Playing the Keyboard", but to a set of 6 sonatas (not known which they were) which he found in a shop and was so fascinated by that he couldn't stop until he had mastered them, are about the only direct evidence of the CPE ---> Haydn relationship. ................................

Gurn - thanks for the additional comments - the question pique my interest and I tried to look for the Dies book online - no luck but seems to be available (along w/ the G.A. Griesinger early biography) in an English translation for about $20 - not sure that I would read the book? But I did find another book @ Project Gutenberg HERE (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3788/3788-h/3788-h.htm) by J. Cuthbert Hadden (preface dated 1902) w/ a couple paragraphs on CPE Bach which I attached for those interested. Dave :)

P.S. I still cannot get through that Rosen book - will start it again; maybe after a half dozen years or so here, I'll be better prepared? ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 02, 2013, 05:41:46 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on December 31, 2012, 09:44:39 AM
Gurn - thanks for the additional comments - the question pique my interest and I tried to look for the Dies book online - no luck but seems to be available (along w/ the G.A. Griesinger early biography) in an English translation for about $20 - not sure that I would read the book? But I did find another book @ Project Gutenberg HERE (http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3788/3788-h/3788-h.htm) by J. Cuthbert Hadden (preface dated 1902) w/ a couple paragraphs on CPE Bach which I attached for those interested. Dave :)

P.S. I still cannot get through that Rosen book - will start it again; maybe after a half dozen years or so here, I'll be better prepared? ;D

Interesting, Dave. Hadden is an old book, and he states some things as fact that we now know are anecdotal. However, in all points that I can verify, this is an accurate account. He may not have had access to Dies or Greisinger (whichever it was) to have the tale of the bookseller who convinced him to try CPE's "True Art...". That's the only thing missing of what I have heard though. Well, that and his statement to Greisinger that "anyone who knows me knows that my main influence was Emanuel Bach..." (not Sammartini).

I suspect that yu wouldn't want to read Dies/Greisinger straight through. Everything pertinent that they wrote is quoted in whatever book that is currently referencing them anyway. Interesting of course, but not vitally important to have on hand. I would have thought that this book would have been available on Project Gutenberg too. The translator/author is Vernon Gotwals.

[asin]0299027910[/asin]

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/512B5KbCLRcL.jpg)

Less than $11 used.... :)

8)

PS - Buck up on the Rosen, matey. If you understood it all, you would be the greatest American music writer yourself. Take what you can and leave the rest. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 06, 2013, 06:53:11 PM

Now that I've safely placed my order, I can let the rest of you Haydnistos in on this, from Arkvimusic's clearance sale.
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/20/209665.JPG)
$5.99 plus shipping and sales tax (if any)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mirror Image on January 06, 2013, 07:14:56 PM

Just bought:

(http://boxset.ru/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/bernstein_conducts_haydn.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on January 06, 2013, 07:42:37 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 30, 2012, 06:32:51 PM

Always interested in feedback, and in any further PI recordings that I may have failed to come across previously.

8)

Nice project, as usual, Gurn.

I recall two additional versions on PI:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4260052380826.jpg)(http://d1wtlopzkpoh9j.cloudfront.net/images/square/2270188.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 07, 2013, 03:19:56 AM

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/01/07/nu3a5uhe.jpg)

Anyone else totally enamored with this recording? I also own Solti, Kuijken and Gardiner's Seasons, but Jacobs' grabbed my attention in a way the others could not. I actually enjoyed my first run through of this Seasons more than my first run through of my favorite Creation recording. A new favorite Haydn oratorio emerging?
Two things should have foreshadowed this occurrence, first, Jacobs recording of no.92 with Freiburger is completely satisfying and exciting, capped off with a rocket-boosted finale, I find myself reaching for that 7-minute movement whenever I need an energy boost, better than Red Bull. Second, I bought this Seasons disc along with Jacobs Die Zauberflote, and his interpretation of Mozart's best opera (factual opinion) has floored me, one of the most visual-inducing records I've experienced, you can sense the production, the movements, the sets, etc...altogether divine.
Anyway, this Seasons recording has had a very similar effect on me, very theatrical yet musically detailed. Not to mention some frighteningly superb playing and singing.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 07, 2013, 04:14:35 AM

I'd about forgotten what a dangerous place da Haus can be, what with that Seasons and the Boston Baroque Creation . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 07, 2013, 09:45:14 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 06, 2013, 06:53:11 PM
Now that I've safely placed my order, I can let the rest of you Haydnistos in on this, from Arkvimusic's clearance sale.
(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/full/20/209665.JPG)
$5.99 plus shipping and sales tax (if any)

It's a most diverting box. I predict satisfaction. :)

8)

(better picture)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKoopmancover.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 07, 2013, 09:49:42 AM

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 06, 2013, 07:14:56 PM
Just bought:

(http://boxset.ru/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/bernstein_conducts_haydn.jpg)

Let us have some idea what you think of it when you've given a listen. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 07, 2013, 09:52:03 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on January 06, 2013, 07:42:37 PM
Nice project, as usual, Gurn.

I recall two additional versions on PI:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4260052380826.jpg)(http://d1wtlopzkpoh9j.cloudfront.net/images/square/2270188.jpg)

Thanks, Gordo. I have found that comparing 10 double disks is time consuming! :o But will be back with results and comments soon. I appreciate the recs too. I am quite fond of Boston Baroque in other composers, it will be nice to try them in some Haydn. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 07, 2013, 09:54:24 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 07, 2013, 09:49:42 AM
Let us have some idea what you think of it when you've given a listen. :)

8)

The following is A Joke

What can it matter what he thinks? You know what I think!

The preceding was A Joke

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 07, 2013, 09:55:09 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 07, 2013, 03:19:56 AM
(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/01/07/nu3a5uhe.jpg)

Anyone else totally enamored with this recording? I also own Solti, Kuijken and Gardiner's Seasons, but Jacobs' grabbed my attention in a way the others could not. I actually enjoyed my first run through of this Seasons more than my first run through of my favorite Creation recording. A new favorite Haydn oratorio emerging?
Two things should have foreshadowed this occurrence, first, Jacobs recording of no.92 with Freiburger is completely satisfying and exciting, capped off with a rocket-boosted finale, I find myself reaching for that 7-minute movement whenever I need an energy boost, better than Red Bull. Second, I bought this Seasons disc along with Jacobs Die Zauberflote, and his interpretation of Mozart's best opera (factual opinion) has floored me, one of the most visual-inducing records I've experienced, you can sense the production, the movements, the sets, etc...altogether divine.
Anyway, this Seasons recording has had a very similar effect on me, very theatrical yet musically detailed. Not to mention some frighteningly superb playing and singing.

I saw you post that, Greg, either in the Listening or Purchases thread the other day and was immediately stricken that I don't have it yet. I haven't started in on mass 'Seasons' collecting, I have Kuijkens and Gardiner, I think. I would like Jacobs and Harnoncourt first off. You're right, Jacobs is very fine in every Classical Era work that I've heard so far. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 07, 2013, 09:56:27 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 07, 2013, 09:54:24 AM
The following is A Joke

What can it matter what he thinks? You know what I think!

The preceding was A Joke

But I wanted to hear from a non-PI non-Haydnista, Karl.... 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 07, 2013, 09:57:42 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on January 07, 2013, 04:32:40 AM
I have heard both of these recordings and think they are superb. :)

I hope to find out for myself soon enough. That's good to know though. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mirror Image on January 07, 2013, 10:02:34 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 07, 2013, 09:49:42 AM
Let us have some idea what you think of it when you've given a listen. :)

8)

I'll do my best to formulate some opinions of these performances, Gurn. I'm afraid I don't have much to compare them to. I don't own much Haydn. Now, my Dad, on the other hand, owns a good bit. I remember him playing back some of Dorati's symphony set through the stereo and I instantly wanted copies of every disc. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 07, 2013, 10:20:30 AM

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 07, 2013, 10:02:34 AM
I'll do my best to formulate some opinions of these performances, Gurn. I'm afraid I don't have much to compare them to. I don't own much Haydn. Now, my Dad, on the other hand, owns a good bit. I remember him playing back some of Dorati's symphony set through the stereo and I instantly wanted copies of every disc. :D

Well, here's what I'm interested in; Bernstein's Paris Symphonies versus Harnoncourt's. I know you got those Harnoncourt ones during the big 'sale'. I'm really curious though, since Dorati is the only MI Paris that I have.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mirror Image on January 07, 2013, 10:25:00 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 07, 2013, 10:20:30 AM
Well, here's what I'm interested in; Bernstein's Paris Symphonies versus Harnoncourt's. I know you got those Harnoncourt ones during the big 'sale'. I'm really curious though, since Dorati is the only MI Paris that I have.

8)

Oh, wait...I have heard Jochum's London Symphonies too! Unfortunately, I don't remember the performances. :( Yes, I'll do some comparisons between Harnoncourt and Bernstein (once it arrives). That sounds like a neat project. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 07, 2013, 10:26:34 AM

Quote from: Mirror Image on January 07, 2013, 10:25:00 AM
Oh, wait...I have heard Jochum's London Symphonies too! Unfortunately, I don't remember the performances. :( Yes, I'll do some comparisons between Harnoncourt and Bernstein (once it arrives). That sounds like a neat project. :)

Cool. You will also be treated to some of the finest music of the Classical Era. It's win::win! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mirror Image on January 07, 2013, 10:31:32 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 07, 2013, 10:26:34 AM
Cool. You will also be treated to some of the finest music of the Classical Era. It's win::win! :)

8)

Haydn is my favorite Classical Era composer. Bar none.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 11, 2013, 05:31:51 PM

Since this will be on page 4 of "What are you listening to?" by morning, here's a double post then;

I've been listening frequently to the first symphonies that Haydn wrote for the Esterházy family lately, #6, 7 & 8 (Le Matin, Le Midi, Le Soir). Since they are by far the most frequently recorded early symphonies (hell, early works at all!), needless to say there are many versions to choose from.

Today, I got this one in the mail;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnApollo6-8cover.jpg)

The Apollo Ensemble is a Dutch chamber orchestra with a real facility for playing Haydn. Probably no coincidence that they number precisely the same as the Esterházy Band. They play these works without a harpsichord continuo. I don't note any sign of a hollowness that needs filling! The members seem to be easily up to the rather more difficult than not solo parts. The overall timbre of the group just seems excellent to me, this may well be the best 6 - 8 that I've heard yet! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Papy Oli on January 12, 2013, 09:30:55 AM

Are there any online sellers (Europe, even US) where this Quatuor Mosaiques boxset can still be found please ? is it completely OOP ? I am struggling to find it anywhere. TIA.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51D1UfJXK1L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 12, 2013, 09:35:52 AM

Quote from: Papy Oli on January 12, 2013, 09:30:55 AM
Are there any online sellers (Europe, even US) where this Quatuor Mosaiques boxset can still be found please ? is it completely OOP ? I am struggling to find it anywhere. TIA.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51D1UfJXK1L._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Whoa! I just checked Amazon and it is "currently unavailable" here, too! I suppose it was inevitable, just surprised it happened so quickly. I have seen this box for sale, and recently too, on eBay. Perhaps your local eBay would be worth a search? :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on January 12, 2013, 09:44:35 AM

Quote from: Papy Oli on January 12, 2013, 09:30:55 AM
Are there any online sellers (Europe, even US) where this Quatuor Mosaiques boxset can still be found please ? is it completely OOP ? I am struggling to find it anywhere. TIA.

Me too, for quite some time. Let go off many an opportunity when it was going for $25-30. Surprisingly, the first set of 5 CDs is still available at many online stores.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Papy Oli on January 12, 2013, 09:52:14 AM

Thank you both. Nothing on Ebay either :-\

Will probably go for the individual releases in this case (the 2 x op.64 + op.77). Will skip the Op.76 (dearer) as I have the Kodaly for those (the only Haydn SQ I actually currently have as a matter of fact). Just wanted to change that with the Mosaiques as I was very impressed by them when I saw them at Snape last year. I loved their sound.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 12, 2013, 12:19:36 PM

Part 2
Methodology
When I got down to it, I realized that I really didn't know how to go about comparing such a large work across 10 versions. It gives one a newfound appreciation for people who do this for a living, given that they could be doing the same with music they don't particularly care for rather than what they very much enjoy! Yikes! :o

Anyway, what I did was choose a few of the highlight pieces of the work, ones that contained solo, ensemble, choral and orchestral parts, and I listened to each of those in turn (with score in hand, just for the hell of it) and tried to determine which of them made the best impression on me, taking notes as I went along. Even that required intense concentration. Nonetheless, rather than giving a Top 10 ranking, I will eventually simply declare which English and German version I would put in my personal Hall of Fame. As they say, your mileage may vary.... In case the winner is unable to complete its term as THE Creation, the 1st runner-up will fulfill its duties. :)

The actualities
When listened to back-to-back like this, differences that get lost in the chaos tend to stand out more readily. One thing in particular is recording/sound quality. When you listen to a complete performance you mentally adapt to how it sounds. Whereas when you hear 10 performances of the same aria consecutively, you can't help but notice things like clarity and aural presence to go along with performance. And it can't help but influence your choice, even if you weren't particularly looking for that.

Pieces that I concentrated on;
Overture – 'Representation of Chaos'
Pt 07 - Raphael's Aria Rolling in Foaming Billows
Pt 14 - Chorus & Soli The Heavens are telling
Pt 19 - Trio Most Beautiful appear, the Lord is great
Pt 30 - Duet, Adam & Eve Holde Gattin! Dir zur Seite

In the 'overture', the wonderful introduction, The Representation of Chaos, where Haydn made more of c minor than one would have thought he could, I think that the air of suspense and mystery is presented better by McCreesh than any of the others. And the 'Let there be light' resolution into C major shows one why it was such a startling moment to the first listeners. Nearly as well done were Spering and Hengelbröck. There again, in both cases the clarity of the recording was especially good, and perhaps that gave them an edge in this instrumental section.

There were some excellent moments in every set; the instrumental section in 'The Heaven's are telling' in Christie's performance, for example, was outstanding. As was the chorus in Gardiner's in that same piece. And the soloists in Gardiner Part 19 Trio, especially the soprano Gabriel (Sylvia McNair) were equally arresting. And finally, in the final duet by Adam & Eve, Harnoncourt's pair (Röschmann & Gerhaher) were amazingly good.

In summary though, I was pleased to discover that the pair of performances that I ended up with were the same pair that I began with in my own review a year ago. That is, McCreesh and Spering. Hengelbröck, a newcomer to the fold, put up a great fight against Spering, but in the end I couldn't see a solid reason to drop one for the other. And ultimately, that holds true throughout the list (with one exception). If you have any of these now, you are as well off to hold what you have as to make any big tradeoffs. The exception being Hogwood. It is sad that L'Oiseau Lyre finally made one recording in their entire catalog with rather poor SQ, and sadder yet that it is this one, which does have a very nice performance on board. But for an English version (there are only the two of them) it loses out to McCreesh hands down, and that is based primarily on sound. The Gabrieli Consort is a very fine group, but so is the Academy of Ancient Music. But even (especially?) if you're a fan of Hogwood/AAM, give this one a miss and get the McCreesh.

Hope this helps a bit to decide if you are looking to hear this work for the first time. Or if you don't like the version you are listening to now. I wasn't planning on writing out all my results, but if anyone wants to talk about a specific performance, I'd be delighted to do. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 12, 2013, 12:57:29 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 12, 2013, 12:19:36 PM
Part 2
Methodology
When I got down to it, I realized that I really didn’t know how to go about comparing such a large work across 10 versions. It gives one a newfound appreciation for people who do this for a living, given that they could be doing the same with music they don’t particularly care for rather than what they very much enjoy! Yikes! :o

Anyway, what I did was choose a few of the highlight pieces of the work, ones that contained solo, ensemble, choral and orchestral parts, and I listened to each of those in turn (with score in hand, just for the hell of it) and tried to determine which of them made the best impression on me, taking notes as I went along. Even that required intense concentration. Nonetheless, rather than giving a Top 10 ranking, I will eventually simply declare which English and German version I would put in my personal Hall of Fame. As they say, your mileage may vary…. In case the winner is unable to complete its term as THE Creation, the 1st runner-up will fulfill its duties. :)

The actualities
When listened to back-to-back like this, differences that get lost in the chaos tend to stand out more readily. One thing in particular is recording/sound quality. When you listen to a complete performance you mentally adapt to how it sounds. Whereas when you hear 10 performances of the same aria consecutively, you can’t help but notice things like clarity and aural presence to go along with performance. And it can’t help but influence your choice, even if you weren’t particularly looking for that.

Pieces that I concentrated on;
Overture – ‘Representation of Chaos’
Pt 07 - Raphael’s Aria Rolling in Foaming Billows
Pt 14 - Chorus & Soli The Heavens are telling
Pt 19 - Trio Most Beautiful appear, the Lord is great
Pt 30 - Duet, Adam & Eve Holde Gattin! Dir zur Seite

In the ‘overture’, the wonderful introduction, The Representation of Chaos, where Haydn made more of c minor than one would have thought he could, I think that the air of suspense and mystery is presented better by McCreesh than any of the others. And the ‘Let there be light’ resolution into C major shows one why it was such a startling moment to the first listeners. Nearly as well done were Spering and Hengelbröck. There again, in both cases the clarity of the recording was especially good, and perhaps that gave them an edge in this instrumental section.

There were some excellent moments in every set; the instrumental section in ‘The Heaven’s are telling’ in Christie’s performance, for example, was outstanding. As was the chorus in Gardiner’s in that same piece. And the soloists in Gardiner Part 19 Trio, especially the soprano Gabriel (Sylvia McNair) were equally arresting. And finally, in the final duet by Adam & Eve, Harnoncourt’s pair (Röschmann & Gerhaher) were amazingly good.

In summary though, I was pleased to discover that the pair of performances that I ended up with were the same pair that I began with in my own review a year ago. That is, McCreesh and Spering. Hengelbröck, a newcomer to the fold, put up a great fight against Spering, but in the end I couldn’t see a solid reason to drop one for the other. And ultimately, that holds true throughout the list (with one exception). If you have any of these now, you are as well off to hold what you have as to make any big tradeoffs. The exception being Hogwood. It is sad that L’Oiseau Lyre finally made one recording in their entire catalog with rather poor SQ, and sadder yet that it is this one, which does have a very nice performance on board. But for an English version (there are only the two of them) it loses out to McCreesh hands down, and that is based primarily on sound. The Gabrieli Consort is a very fine group, but so is the Academy of Ancient Music. But even (especially?) if you’re a fan of Hogwood/AAM, give this one a miss and get the McCreesh.

Hope this helps a bit to decide if you are looking to hear this work for the first time. Or if you don’t like the version you are listening to now. I wasn’t planning on writing out all my results, but if anyone wants to talk about a specific performance, I’d be delighted to do. :)

8)

I'd be interested what you thought the strengths and weaknesses of each set were (or at least the ones that stood out in some way). I know that sometimes reviewers write negative comments that only increase my interest (because I have perhaps different ideas about a piece than they did). I have the McCreesh, so I'm not going anywhere, but it would still be of interest to me to hear what the others do (or don't do) if one day I wanted a different view.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Conor71 on January 12, 2013, 10:43:08 PM

^^Papy Oli and Opus - I recently read on the amazon forum that Naive are planning to re-release the QM Haydn and Mozart though Im not sure when that might be? - heres a link to the thread were I read it (might be best to wait for these boxes rather than buy the individuals?):

http://www.amazon.com/forum/classical%20music/ref=cm_cd_fp_ef_tft_tp?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx2O5YQ79OVJBUQ&cdThread=Tx2AI0BALVJ3EMM (http://www.amazon.com/forum/classical%20music/ref=cm_cd_fp_ef_tft_tp?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx2O5YQ79OVJBUQ&cdThread=Tx2AI0BALVJ3EMM)

Edit: After re-reading the thread im not so sure whether they are talking about Mozart's "Haydn" Quartets or the Haydn Quartets themselves - I kind of get the impression that all of the QM will be re-released.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on January 12, 2013, 11:13:11 PM

Quote from: Conor71 on January 12, 2013, 10:43:08 PM
^^Papy Oli and Opus - I recently read on the amazon forum that Naive are planning to re-release the QM Haydn and Mozart though Im not sure when that might be? - heres a link to the thread were I read it (might be best to wait for these boxes rather than buy the individuals?):

http://www.amazon.com/forum/classical%20music/ref=cm_cd_fp_ef_tft_tp?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx2O5YQ79OVJBUQ&cdThread=Tx2AI0BALVJ3EMM (http://www.amazon.com/forum/classical%20music/ref=cm_cd_fp_ef_tft_tp?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx2O5YQ79OVJBUQ&cdThread=Tx2AI0BALVJ3EMM)

Edit: After re-reading the thread im not so sure whether they are talking about Mozart's "Haydn" Quartets or the Haydn Quartets themselves - I kind of get the impression that all of the QM will be re-released.

Thanks for the update, Conor. Based on the first message alone, it appears they will re-issue Haydn's as well as Mozart's quartets. In fact last year I began to see copies of Mozart's 'Haydn' set (individual discs) available at the Amazons after a long time.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Papy Oli on January 13, 2013, 12:20:16 AM

Quote from: Conor71 on January 12, 2013, 10:43:08 PM
^^Papy Oli and Opus - I recently read on the amazon forum that Naive are planning to re-release the QM Haydn and Mozart though Im not sure when that might be? - heres a link to the thread were I read it (might be best to wait for these boxes rather than buy the individuals?):

http://www.amazon.com/forum/classical%20music/ref=cm_cd_fp_ef_tft_tp?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx2O5YQ79OVJBUQ&cdThread=Tx2AI0BALVJ3EMM (http://www.amazon.com/forum/classical%20music/ref=cm_cd_fp_ef_tft_tp?_encoding=UTF8&cdForum=Fx2O5YQ79OVJBUQ&cdThread=Tx2AI0BALVJ3EMM)

Edit: After re-reading the thread im not so sure whether they are talking about Mozart's "Haydn" Quartets or the Haydn Quartets themselves - I kind of get the impression that all of the QM will be re-released.

G'day Conor ! thank you for the info :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on January 13, 2013, 05:33:26 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 12, 2013, 12:19:36 PM

Hope this helps a bit to decide if you are looking to hear this work for the first time. Or if you don't like the version you are listening to now. I wasn't planning on writing out all my results, but if anyone wants to talk about a specific performance, I'd be delighted to do. :)

8)

Thanks for the rundown Gurn! That is very helpful!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Octave on January 18, 2013, 03:11:04 AM

Has anyone purchased Tom Beghin's VIRTUAL HAYDN set (Naxos) in Blu-Ray Audio instead of normal CDs? I have almost no experience with the Blu-Ray Audio format, though movie sound seems remarkably deeper even just through a middling 2-channel set-up. I was curious if this particular release was worth the slight extra outlay. The concept of the set sounds fascinating (unequal temperament on many different period instruments, with digitally reconstructed [?] or synthesized acoustics); but I don't know Beghin's playing at all.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 18, 2013, 05:14:07 AM

I don't know anyone that got the Blu-Ray, but as San says, we had a great discussionof the CD version here. I completely agree, one of my top three purchases of 2011.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on January 18, 2013, 05:31:57 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 18, 2013, 05:14:07 AM
I don't know anyone that got the Blu-Ray...

8)

A certain Mr. Laurson was in possession of it at one point in time, but whether he listened to it or not is another issue.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on January 18, 2013, 06:30:57 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on January 18, 2013, 05:31:57 AM
A certain Mr. Laurson was in possession of it at one point in time, but whether he listened to it or not is another issue.

Oh, hello. Yes. It was -- along with Weinberg's "The Passenger" -- the reason I bought a blu-ray drive in the first place.

But you make a valid point about listening. :D
I've dabbled.

The question can be answered by yourself: Are you feeding your blu-ray channel into a high-quality speaker multi-channel setup? Then it's unquestionably worth it. In fact, then it's self-demanding. Otherwise. no reason to bother -- at least I find blu-ray handling more cumbersome than dealing with CDs and SACDs.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on January 18, 2013, 07:23:28 AM

In the booklet they put emphasis on how the recordings capture the room ambience. I've not listened systematically to the set, and when I have listened I've used spotify, I don't own anything by Beghin. But I'm very curious about this business of ambience, partly because they seem to think it matters. I've learned to trust Beghin, in Haydn and in Beethoven. I've found most everything I've heard or read by him is stimulating.

If someone posts positively about this business of ambience i'd look into the blu ray, though I've no idea how I'd get it from the discs into the hi fi amp and out of the hi fi speakers.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 18, 2013, 07:55:13 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on January 18, 2013, 07:23:28 AM
In the booklet they put emphasis on how the recordings capture the room ambience. I've not listened systematically to the set, and when I have listened I've used spotify, I don't own anything by Beghin. But I'm very curious about this business of ambience, partly because they seem to think it matters. I've learned to trust Beghin, in Haydn and in Beethoven. I've found most everything I've heard or read by him is stimulating.

If someone posts positively about this business of ambience i'd look into the blu ray, though I've no idea how I'd get it from the discs into the hi fi amp and out of the hi fi speakers.

Part of the problem in discussing the ambience is that it's hard to analyze it in isolation. Several instruments are used, ranging from harpsichord and clavichord through square piano to grand fortepiano, but (IIRC) no single instrument is played in more than one "virtual room", and no "virtual room" is used for more than one instrument. So it's hard to say in listening to any individual piece, what should be laid to the account of the instrument and what should be laid to the account of the ambience.

But the sonics/engineering sound very good even on my cheapest of the cheap CD player, so it's probably the case that the better the audio set up, the better it will sound.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 18, 2013, 08:20:52 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 18, 2013, 07:55:13 AM
Part of the problem in discussing the ambience is that it's hard to analyze it in isolation. Several instruments are used, ranging from harpsichord and clavichord through square piano to grand fortepiano, but (IIRC) no single instrument is played in more than one "virtual room", and no "virtual room" is used for more than one instrument. So it's hard to say in listening to any individual piece, what should be laid to the account of the instrument and what should be laid to the account of the ambience.

But the sonics/engineering sound very good even on my cheapest of the cheap CD player, so it's probably the case that the better the audio set up, the better it will sound.

Which is the advantage of the Blu-Ray; you can change the room ambiance in any piece so no matter what instrument is played you can make the sound match the room you are interested in. WHich is, I would think, why Jens was keen on it enough to get a Blu-Ray to start with. Damn near had ME buyin' one! :o

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on January 18, 2013, 08:50:33 AM

Exactly, how interesting is it? I want to speak to someone who's spent a bit of time playing around with the virtual rooms. Someone who posts to say"wow, that blew my mind"

It sounds a bit nerdy for me, but you never know.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Octave on January 18, 2013, 09:18:54 PM

Thanks, guys, for the discussion of the VIRTUAL HAYDN collection. I thought my next big Haydn keyboard set would be the Brautigam, but even apart from the gimmicks and medium of the Beghin, I'm tempted by the diverse range [?] of instrumental sounds in the set. I will rummage for the old discussion of the set; I'm irritated at myself for inept searches...I actually tried to find prior discussion and did come up with much, just a reproduction of a note by Beghin in a Mandryka post.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 19, 2013, 09:48:46 AM

Quote from: Octave on January 18, 2013, 09:18:54 PM
Thanks, guys, for the discussion of the VIRTUAL HAYDN collection. I thought my next big Haydn keyboard set would be the Brautigam, but even apart from the gimmicks and medium of the Beghin, I'm tempted by the diverse range [?] of instrumental sounds in the set. I will rummage for the old discussion of the set; I'm irritated at myself for inept searches...I actually tried to find prior discussion and did come up with much, just a reproduction of a note by Beghin in a Mandryka post.

My other set is in fact, Brautigam, and there's enough meat on Brautigam's bones to make that a very good choice. Also, IIRC, Brautigam included some things not found in Beghin's set, the most important of which is the keyboard arrangement of The Seven Last Words.

There's also Van Oort's set of the non-sonata works on Brilliant. You will find all three--Brautigam, Beghin, and Van Oort--worth having.

Also (while we're on the PI front) Van Oort's complete Mozart Keyboard set, also on Brilliant.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on January 20, 2013, 06:56:43 AM

I love the Beghin set. A true labor of love.

A meticulous acoustical 'mapping' of various buildings and spaces, the combining of old with new technology, the hard work facing Beghin in bringing these keyboard compositions to life. It's inherently interesting, even if it gets repetitive. Also intriguing is how difficult some of these pieces are. Watching the performer play, fingers soaring across what is often a smaller set of keys, is amazing. It is completely immersive, providing crystal clear reproduction of both the instruments and the space. There is a wonderful level of ambience present, notes resonating from one speaker across several. The Haydn team of two leading creative engineers, Martha de Francisco (producer) and Wieslaw Woszczyk (engineer), working closely with leading international makers of early keyboard instruments, who made and tended through the project copies of important instruments of Haydn's time. Beghin is an accomplished artist, his touch giving way to flourishes that really emphasize a piece's emotional core. He interprets Haydn expertly, never once giving over to an attempt to modernize or undermine the composer's vision.

We are really meant to see every step of the process - the reimagining and construction of these ancient instruments. Beghin is technically impeccable, totally to be trusted and, beyond that, many of his performances sound more spontaneous than academic, and are both beautiful to hear and viscerally exciting. This is not a set for experts only, and within the 18 hours listening and learning everyone will discover marvelous music which they didn't know. There is a huge divide about pianos for 18th Century music. For many years now in the Haus, we have espoused the fortepianos which have an ever increasing availability and profile at the highest level, most recently in Mozart performances and recordings by Bilson, Sonfronitsky, Bezuidenhout & their ilk, and are beginning to find it harder to enjoy this music on a Steinway. I am not going here into questions of performance, save to say that Tom Beghin is as gifted an interpreter of this corpus of keyboard music as you'd be likely to find anywhere.

BEGHIN the Begin!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on January 20, 2013, 07:05:18 AM

The 18th century fascinates me to no end (I feel sorry for my wife who has to hear my endless reading about it), and in the spirit of the Beghin set, I'll have to admit I'm nerdy enough to want my own 18th Century room, built into my house!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51A0PAC57HL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 20, 2013, 07:08:21 AM

Quote from: Leo K. on January 20, 2013, 06:56:43 AM
I love the Beghin set. A true labor of love.
snip...Beghin is an accomplished artist, his touch giving way to flourishes that really emphasize a piece's emotional core. He interprets Haydn expertly, never once giving over to an attempt to modernize or undermine the composer's vision... snip... Beghin is technically impeccable, totally to be trusted and, beyond that, many of his performances sound more spontaneous than academic, and are both beautiful to hear and viscerally exciting. This is not a set for experts only, and within the 18 hours listening and learning everyone will discover marvelous music which they didn't know. There is a huge divide about pianos for 18th Century music....

Great post, Leo! Hopefully it will help Octave make his decision.

On the bolded part there, a few months ago someone posted a column by a professional reviewer and I almost blew a freakin' gasket over his assertion that Beghin was a poor interpreter because he didn't put on all the 19th century artifacts that, for example Brendel, Schiff and Hamelin (IIRC) do, so he missed the opportunity to entertain that fellow because of it. When I got back from hospital I tried to write a well-reasoned rebuttal but couldn't really do it; other than to say, professionals should know better than that!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 20, 2013, 07:10:09 AM

Quote from: Leo K. on January 20, 2013, 07:05:18 AM
The 18th century fascinates me to no end (I feel sorry for my wife who has to hear my endless reading about it), and in the spirit of the Beghin set, I'll have to admit I'm nerdy enough to want my own 18th Century room, built into my house!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51A0PAC57HL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Oh man, me too! :)

Sonic Dave; I see a second career coming your way..... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 20, 2013, 09:31:29 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 20, 2013, 07:10:09 AM
Oh man, me too! :)

Sonic Dave; I see a second career coming your way..... :D

Hi Leo & Gurn - looks great! The hardest part on the pic shown would be the curved fluted moldings, the rest of that wall unit is basically bookcase & door building - would take a while though! Plus, I like the fact the author doesn't shun electricity, e.g. I see a pneumatic nailer & a table saw in several of the bottom images on the book cover - NOW, a real period woodworker (see the analogy) would use hand tools alone, like Roy Underhill on PBS (just watched his show yesterday) - a much more daunting & sweaty job, as well as time consuming!

BUT, alas, I'm not so ambitious (maybe in retirement I can enlarge my scope of projects?) - my last one was made for a former resident of mine, i.e. a CD/DVD/BD wall unit which holds about 500 items - walnut carcass, oak dowels for the shelving, & an oak veneer plywood back - if made only for CDs, I could have had an extra shelf and probably have gotten close to 700 CDs into it! Dave :D

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51A0PAC57HL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Hobbies/CDDVD-Storage/i-SjVqx5K/1/O/CD_DVDJake1.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 20, 2013, 11:10:46 AM

Quote from: Leo K. on January 20, 2013, 07:05:18 AM
The 18th century fascinates me to no end

+1.

QuoteI'll have to admit I'm nerdy enough to want my own 18th Century room, built into my house!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51A0PAC57HL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Unfortunately, gentlemen, what we'll never, never again be able to build or recover is --- a great 18th century mindset. ;D We've been experiencing Beethoven, Liszt, Bruckner, Mahler, Schoenberg and two (!!!) world wars ever since! Our innocence is lost forever... ;D

Seriously now, I do believe there is a fundamental difference between someone listening to Haydn's symphonies in the 18th century and someone listening to them in the 21st century: the two persons are galaxies apart, sociologically, culturally and spiritually/religiously. There is absolutely no common denominator between Nikolaus Eszterhazy and Gurn Blanston when it comes to experiencing music. ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 20, 2013, 11:20:13 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 20, 2013, 11:10:46 AM
+1.

Unfortunately, gentlemen, what we'll never, never again be able to build or recover is --- a great 18th century mindset. ;D We've been experiencing Beethoven, Liszt, Bruckner, Mahler, Schoenberg and two (!!!) world wars ever since! Our innocence is lost forever... ;D

Seriously now, I do believe there is a fundamental difference between someone listening to Haydn's symphonies in the 18th century and someone listening to them in the 21st century: the two persons are galaxies apart, sociologically, culturally and spiritually/religiously. There is absolutely no common denominator between Nikolaus Eszterhazy and Gurn Blanston when it comes to experiencing music. ;D ;D ;D

Well, I can wish that the common denominator was wealth.... :)

It's true though, what you say. I do have an advantage over you in that I don't listen to post-Classical music any more. I suppose one can't un-ring a bell, but when it comes to listening to later music, I've forgotten most of it now. Pity about Dvorak though... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 20, 2013, 11:31:28 AM

Ah, a time of innocence and grand visions. A time when:
- women were often valued for their ability to have baby boys
- slaves were accepted and even bred
- some people were born to wealth and thus entitled to the pleasures of life
- censors ruled the day on whether a work could be published
- jokes could land you in jail
- bathrooms were as clean as....(they were clean?)...(there were bathrooms?)....
- religious freedom was a dream, but not a reality
- taxes were high and politicians...(I guess some things don't change)...

Ah yes, the good old days! :( :o ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 20, 2013, 11:44:30 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 20, 2013, 11:20:13 AM
Well, I can wish that the common denominator was wealth.... :)

Wishful thinking, my friend... if it were only that it would be a mere trifle... ;D

Quote
It's true though, what you say. I do have an advantage over you in that I don't listen to post-Classical music any more.

Any more --- that says it all. Once heard it, always heard it ;D

Quote
I suppose one can't un-ring a bell,

Suppose? Unringing a bell is as sure a thing as the Sun rising from the East... ;D

Quote
but when it comes to listening to later music, I've forgotten most of it now.

No kidding? ;D

Let's face it, Gurn: Nikolaus Eszterhazy never heard any of Beethoven's works, let alone what came after him. He never used any cellphone, credit card, car, plane, electric power, running water etc; of HIP he knew absolutely nothing whatsoever; comparing multiple recordings and choosing the one that pleased him the most was inconceivable to him; your way of life would be as alien to him as is yours compared to a South African bushman... and you're still trying to convince me you have something in common? ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 20, 2013, 11:45:36 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 20, 2013, 11:31:28 AM
Ah, a time of innocence and grand visions. A time when:
- women were often valued for their ability to have baby boys
- slaves were accepted and even bred
- some people were born to wealth and thus entitled to the pleasures of life
- censors ruled the day on whether a work could be published
- jokes could land you in jail
- bathrooms were as clean as....(they were clean?)...(there were bathrooms?)....
- religious freedom was a dream, but not a reality
- taxes were high and politicians...(I guess some things don't change)...

Ah yes, the good old days! :( :o ;)

I'm afraid you've missed my point completely... ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 20, 2013, 11:48:21 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 20, 2013, 11:31:28 AM
taxes were high and politicians...(I guess some things don't change)...

That's perhaps the only things we have in common with that bygone era... ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 20, 2013, 11:53:59 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 20, 2013, 11:45:36 AM
I'm afraid you've missed my point completely... ;D ;D ;D

Oh good! Because mine was so depresssing! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 22, 2013, 02:07:56 AM

Finally, finally got around to watching the Playing the Room feature from the Beghin box. Most interesting and enjoyable (I admit I enjoyed the instrument-making bits more than the 'acoustical architecture' bits). Puttered just a bit with the 7X9 matrix.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2013, 04:26:59 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 20, 2013, 11:44:30 AM
Wishful thinking, my friend... if it were only that it would be a mere trifle... ;D

Any more --- that says it all. Once heard it, always heard it ;D

Suppose? Unringing a bell is as sure a thing as the Sun rising from the East... ;D

No kidding? ;D

Let's face it, Gurn: Nikolaus Eszterhazy never heard any of Beethoven's works, let alone what came after him. He never used any cellphone, credit card, car, plane, electric power, running water etc; of HIP he knew absolutely nothing whatsoever; comparing multiple recordings and choosing the one that pleased him the most was inconceivable to him; your way of life would be as alien to him as is yours compared to a South African bushman... and you're still trying to convince me you have something in common? ;D

I already said you were right, what more can I add to that? I have been making the same point for years, despite that many seem oblivious to it. 10 years ago on these very pages I beseeched people to try to put things in context; straight-up comparing the piano trios of Brahms to those of Mozart, for example, was a ludicrous exercise. Contextually and in all other ways except 2 of the instruments, they are from different worlds. And so it is with listening to 18th century music. However, to say that you can't appreciate it at all because you haven't got an 18th century mindset begs this question (from me): as someone born after the middle of the 20th century, how could YOU possibly appreciate any music other than Elmer Bernstein and Stockhausen (and Reich, et al)? The 19th and early 20th centuries are also totally culturally different from 'modern times', even though one may feel more akin to them, that is a delusion too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 22, 2013, 04:48:38 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2013, 04:26:59 AM
to say that you can't appreciate it at all because you haven't got an 18th century mindset begs this question (from me): as someone born after the middle of the 20th century, how could YOU possibly appreciate any music other than Elmer Bernstein and Stockhausen (and Reich, et al)? The 19th and early 20th centuries are also totally culturally different from 'modern times', even though one may feel more akin to them, that is a delusion too. :)

I don't say that at all, it would be sheer lunacy. I just say that we appreciate it in a different way than the 18th-century-people did and all attempts at recreating a physical and intellectual setting for appreciating it exactly as it was done back then are illusory. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 22, 2013, 05:16:32 AM

O Freunde, nicht diese Töne . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2013, 06:12:14 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 22, 2013, 04:48:38 AM
I don't say that at all, it would be sheer lunacy. I just say that we appreciate it in a different way than the 18th-century-people did and all attempts at recreating a physical and intellectual setting for appreciating it exactly as it was done back then are illusory. :)

Quote from: karlhenning on January 22, 2013, 05:16:32 AM
O Freunde, nicht diese Töne . . . .

It's OK, Karl, I'm just giving back a little of what I get. There have been a few times in the recent past when I was wanting to answer "I don't say that at all, it would be sheer lunacy" to a thing or two, so I was being intentionally provocative in order to place the shoe on the other foot. ;D

That's a lovely German phrase, maybe you could work it into some sort of Lied or something.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 22, 2013, 08:58:05 AM

Suppose we lived in the second half of 18th century.

What were the chances we heard a Haydn symphony or SQ in our whole life?

What were the chances we heard the same Haydn symphony or SQ twice or more times in our whole life?

What were the chances we heard a Haydn symphony in the order we hear it today, i.e. all 4 movements in a row, uninterrupted by fragments of other composer's work?

In those circumstances hearing once in a lifetime Haydn's music would have been either the experience of your lifetime or just an entertaining event like any other. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2013, 11:32:23 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 22, 2013, 08:58:05 AM
Suppose we lived in the second half of 18th century.

What were the chances we heard a Haydn symphony or SQ in our whole life?

What were the chances we heard the same Haydn symphony or SQ twice or more times in our whole life?

What were the chances we heard a Haydn symphony in the order we hear it today, i.e. all 4 movements in a row, uninterrupted by fragments of other composer's work?

In those circumstances hearing once in a lifetime Haydn's music would have been either the experience of your lifetime or just an entertaining event like any other. ;D

Your premise is only true depending on the answers to the questions. Who you were (your station in life) and where you lived (Paris, Vienna & London would be good places) are the determining factors, obviously. There were many individuals (not a large percentage of the population, of course, but not an invisibly small percentage either) who heard Haydn dozens of times in their lives. Even in the 19th century there were no radios or phonographs, and yet by then, thousands of people were very familiar with Haydn's music. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 22, 2013, 07:37:21 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2013, 11:32:23 AM
Your premise is only true depending on the answers to the questions. Who you were (your station in life) and where you lived (Paris, Vienna & London would be good places) are the determining factors, obviously. There were many individuals (not a large percentage of the population, of course, but not an invisibly small percentage either) who heard Haydn dozens of times in their lives. Even in the 19th century there were no radios or phonographs, and yet by then, thousands of people were very familiar with Haydn's music. :)

8)

There's also the impact of piano reductions and chamber arrangements which were sold with an eye on those people who might not get the chance to ever hear an orchestra play Haydn but had heard of his music and were curious as to what it sounded like. Plus, in middle and upper class households, the presence of at least one young lady able to play the harp or a keyboard instrument was almost taken for granted, and gentlemen with at least some facility on a musical instrument were usually not far away.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 23, 2013, 12:20:57 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 22, 2013, 07:37:21 PM
There's also the impact of piano reductions and chamber arrangements which were sold with an eye on those people who might not get the chance to ever hear an orchestra play Haydn but had heard of his music and were curious as to what it sounded like. Plus, in middle and upper class households, the presence of at least one young lady able to play the harp or a keyboard instrument was almost taken for granted, and gentlemen with at least some facility on a musical instrument were usually not far away.

Precisely. Experiencing and appreciating a Haydn symphony as a piano reduction or as a chamber arrangement performed by amateurs during private evening gatherings is galaxies apart from how we experience and appreciate it today. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 23, 2013, 04:22:14 AM

Well, not galaxies apart. A visa application apart, I should think, though ; )

Gurn, we await word on the organ masses, you know . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 23, 2013, 04:31:41 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 23, 2013, 04:22:14 AM
Well, not galaxies apart. A visa application apart, I should think, though ; )

Gurn, we await word on the organ masses, you know . . . .

I ripped them last night, Karl, and will play this evening. I'm quite looking forward to it, since I've found that by and large, these older masses are far less available than the Great 6 or the Missa Cellensis #1. And as we recall, the Great Organ Solo Mass is also the one with the English Horns for such lovely tone color. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 23, 2013, 04:48:18 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 23, 2013, 04:22:14 AM
Well, not galaxies apart. A visa application apart, I should think, though ; )

I don't get it, Karl. ??? Please elaborate. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 23, 2013, 05:16:07 AM

Oh, I was simply scaling the distance back, my good Andrei. I know that yours was a rhetorical exaggeration : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 23, 2013, 05:22:11 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 23, 2013, 05:16:07 AM
Oh, I was simply scaling the distance back, my good Andrei. I know that yours was a rhetorical exaggeration : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on January 23, 2013, 09:16:36 AM

Perhaps of local interest, in this abode:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00AQZUA5Y.01.L.jpg)
J. Haydn
Notturni & Scherzandi
Jessop Haydn Ensemble & Trinity Haydn Ensemble
Denis McCaldin
divine 2CDs (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00AQZUA5Y/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00AQZUA5Y/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00AQZUA5Y/goodmusicguide-21)
Europe only, for the time being. In association with the Haydn Society of Great Britain.
This includes: Notturnis 1-8, Hob.II:25-32 and the Scherzandi 1-6, Hob.II:33-38

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 23, 2013, 10:15:32 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on January 23, 2013, 09:16:36 AM
Perhaps of local interest, in this abode:

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00AQZUA5Y.01.L.jpg)
J. Haydn
Notturni & Scherzandi
Jessop Haydn Ensemble & Trinity Haydn Ensemble
Denis McCaldin
divine 2CDs (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00AQZUA5Y/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00AQZUA5Y/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00AQZUA5Y/goodmusicguide-21)
Europe only, for the time being. In association with the Haydn Society of Great Britain.
This includes: Notturnis 1-8, Hob.II:25-32 and the Scherzandi 1-6, Hob.II:33-38

Interesting indeed. I shall be delighted when they can post more specific information about it. Have you heard an advance copy, Jens? Or are you out here with the masses as yet? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on January 23, 2013, 10:21:01 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 23, 2013, 10:15:32 AM
Interesting indeed. I shall be delighted when they can post more specific information about it. Have you heard an advance copy, Jens? Or are you out here with the masses as yet? :)

8)

I'm in the middle of listening to the first disc. Any information I can volunteer?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 23, 2013, 11:01:10 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on January 23, 2013, 10:21:01 AM
I'm in the middle of listening to the first disc. Any information I can volunteer?

My first (and only important) question would be: are they the original versions as composed for the King of Naples (with lira organizatta) or are they the versions that Haydn re-scored in 1791 for use in London, where the lira were replaced by a flute and oboe (or 2 flutes + an extra violin etc)? There are (good) versions around of the latter, but other than the occasional here and there, no full set of the former. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 23, 2013, 11:50:05 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on January 23, 2013, 11:15:35 AM
Oh, these are the Solomon/London revisions... which is to say: flute and oboe, w/double bass in continuo section.

Ah, that's very good to know. There is some of Haydn's most attentive music in there, the last gasp of the 18th century divertimento. I'm sure he didn't derive inspiration from the original instrument itself; maybe it was the challenge of making even that sound special that drove him on. Clearly he thought a lot of the music, since he saved all his original scores and used them again in different venues. No doubt at all I will have to acquire this. Thanks for the heads up. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 23, 2013, 05:59:18 PM

Quote from: jlaurson on January 23, 2013, 05:55:02 PM
Actually, after listening to the first disc: Don't be so certain. Those pieces are played by a student orchestra, unlike the second, which I'll tackle tomorrow, and it displays unacceptably low performance standards. Awful, frankly.

I'm sad... :-\

With professionals going begging, why record students? Encourage them, of course, and attend performances, but record? *sigh*

Thanks though.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 24, 2013, 12:57:22 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on January 23, 2013, 05:55:02 PM
Those pieces are played by a student orchestra, [...], and it displays unacceptably low performance standards. Awful, frankly.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 23, 2013, 05:59:18 PM
With professionals going begging, why record students? Encourage them, of course, and attend performances, but record? *sigh*

Are they much worse than the amateurs who performed them in the 18th century? I doubt it. ;D ;D ;D

For many people that was the only way they heard their Haydn, so a recording with less than perfect technical performance is actually as HIP as it gets, methinks. ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 24, 2013, 02:15:13 AM

Rely on Andrei to take the historical reproduction tack ; )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 24, 2013, 02:23:25 AM

What's that, tack? Never heard that word till know. ???

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 24, 2013, 02:38:31 AM

Comes, I believe, from sailing....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 24, 2013, 02:48:22 AM

Thanks, Jens.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 24, 2013, 04:21:10 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on January 24, 2013, 02:46:32 AM
This maneuver is frequently used when the desired direction is (nearly) directly into the wind.

QuoteThis maneuver is frequently used when the desired direction is (nearly) directly into the wind.

Yes, that suits our Andrei to a T.

I won't argue the merits of amateurs v professionals with you, Florestanio, but I will say that a mediocre performance at the conservatory auditorium is for an evening. A mediocre recording is forever. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 24, 2013, 04:26:38 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 24, 2013, 04:21:10 AM
. . . A mediocre recording is forever. :-\

8)

Alas! yes, as harmonizes with a message I was just sending, about the scarcity of recordings available for a certain living composer's rather substantial catalogue.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 24, 2013, 06:05:42 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 24, 2013, 04:21:10 AM
Yes, that suits our Andrei to a T.

You can say it again. The-tack-not-taken is my middle name. ;D :D :P

Quote
I won't argue the merits of amateurs v professionals with you, Florestanio,

That was not the issue anyway. :D

Quote
but I will say that a mediocre performance at the conservatory auditorium is for an evening. A mediocre recording is forever. :-\

This doesn't seem to deter scores of mediocre performances being recorded every year. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 24, 2013, 06:24:42 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 24, 2013, 06:05:42 AM
You can say it again. The-tack-not-taken is my middle name. ;D :D :P

It could be seen by all if you tack it on to your profile! :) (PS: Tack here means attach to, add on, or something similar.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 24, 2013, 06:37:44 AM

This tangent is proving a bit tacky (in the sense slghtly adhesive, not shabby) . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 24, 2013, 07:52:05 AM

Hadn't marked it, actually, Jens.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on January 24, 2013, 07:56:30 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on January 24, 2013, 07:10:39 AM
What...? My 'invisible' addendum?

Fortunately, no. It's the whole tack business.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 24, 2013, 08:41:35 AM

Gurn, here's one scenario/problem for your consideration: you travel in time and witness and record the premiere of Haydn's 88th symphony at Eszterhaza, with the court orchestra. Based on your extensive research on all things Haydn, the resulting recording would technically be (1) worse than, (2) equal to, (3) better than, your current favorite recording of that symphony --- pick one. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 24, 2013, 08:42:29 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 24, 2013, 06:24:42 AM
It could be seen by all if you tack it on to your profile! :) (PS: Tack here means attach to, add on, or something similar.)

Done. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 24, 2013, 08:56:55 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 24, 2013, 08:41:35 AM
Gurn, here's one scenario/problem for your consideration: you travel in time and witness and record the premiere of Haydn's 88th symphony at Eszterhaza, with the court orchestra. Based on your extensive research on all things Haydn, the resulting recording would technically be (1) worse than, (2) equal to, (3) better than, your current favorite recording of that symphony --- pick one. ;D

I don't think it is wishful thinking to say "better than". The Esterháza Orchestra was generally conceded to be the best orchestra in Europe at that time. And being conducted by the composer, well, hard to see who could beat it today.

You could have picked almost any other orchestra out there and you would have gotten a different answer, probably. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 26, 2013, 03:12:31 PM

I know I've posted this before, but as much as I watch I just can't go too long without another posting. Here is Bernstein and the VPO performing an encore of Haydn's "Oxford" final movement.

http://www.youtube.com/v/XclKeS0vaiM

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 26, 2013, 04:08:09 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 26, 2013, 03:12:31 PM
I know I've posted this before, but as much as I watch I just can't go too long without another posting. Here is Bernstein and the VPO performing an encore of Haydn's "Oxford" final movement.

http://www.youtube.com/v/XclKeS0vaiM

That is SO splendid! Not just the performance (I've already raved about the CD) but the music itself. That is simply the absolute best music composed in 1789, IMO. :)

Thanks, Greg,

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Marc on January 26, 2013, 04:28:04 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 26, 2013, 04:08:09 PM
That is SO splendid! Not just the performance (I've already raved about the CD) but the music itself. That is simply the absolute best music composed in 1789, IMO. :)

It's the second best IMO.

1 Mozart, Cosi fan tutte, KV 588
2 Haydn, Symphony no. 92 in G Major "Oxford"
3 Mozart, Clarinet Quintet in A Major, KV 581

Oh, forget it. I'm blabbering. It's Papa's Haus! :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 26, 2013, 04:32:25 PM

Quote from: Marc on January 26, 2013, 04:28:04 PM
It's the second best IMO.

1 Mozart, Cosi fan tutte, KV 588
2 Haydn, Symphony no. 92 in G Major "Oxford"
3 Mozart, Clarinet Quintet in A Major, KV 581

Oh, forget it. I'm blabbering. It's Papa's Haus! :P

Hmm, a worthy challenge! Haydn would have agreed with you, of course (he played 4 hand piano reductions with Mozart in his parlor), but I don't know, I've always considered operas to be more than just a piece of music, many pieces of music. Such a monster by comparison! :o Guess I wasn't thinking straight! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 26, 2013, 04:40:15 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 26, 2013, 04:08:09 PM
That is SO splendid! Not just the performance (I've already raved about the CD) but the music itself. That is simply the absolute best music composed in 1789, IMO. :)

Now Gurn - there is SO MUCH wonderful music composed in the 18th century, especially in the classical era - can one really pick a solitary composition for 1789? Just saying - ;) ;D

And of course the same year (July) that the Bastille was stormed - how to put all of this in perspective? BTW - I'm at the moment listening to Wofie's Clarinet Quintet (K. 581) composed that year as already mentioned (not bad me thinks) - would love to see a 'complete' list of compositions from that year of all of the composers of the era that show up on this forum - may be we already own most of the best ones? Dave :D

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4e/Prise_de_la_Bastille.jpg/300px-Prise_de_la_Bastille.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Marc on January 26, 2013, 04:46:27 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 26, 2013, 04:32:25 PM
Hmm, a worthy challenge! Haydn would have agreed with you, of course (he played 4 hand piano reductions with Mozart in his parlor) [....]

Hmm, Haydn and Mozart were able to start a fight about it.
"I prefer your latest opera to my symphony, my lad."
"No way, Papa, your symphony is way better! My opera is just a box of funny tunes that yielded some good things."
"No, it isn't."
"Yes, it is."
(Blabber)

Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 26, 2013, 04:40:15 PM
Now Gurn - there is SO MUCH wonderful music composed in the 18th century, especially in the classical era - can one really pick a solitary composition for 1789? Just saying - ;) ;D

Waaaaaaay too rational. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 26, 2013, 04:52:59 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on January 26, 2013, 04:40:15 PM
Now Gurn - there is SO MUCH wonderful music composed in the 18th century, especially in the classical era - can one really pick a solitary composition for 1789? Just saying - ;) ;D

And of course the same year (July) that the Bastille was stormed - how to put all of this in perspective? BTW - I'm at the moment listening to Wofie's Clarinet Quintet (K. 581) composed that year as already mentioned (not bad me thinks) - would love to see a 'complete' list of compositions from that year of all of the composers of the era that show up on this forum - may be we already own most of the best ones? Dave :D

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4e/Prise_de_la_Bastille.jpg/300px-Prise_de_la_Bastille.jpg)

:D Well, given that I own the complete works of both Mozart & Haydn, really, where can you go from there? Not up, certainly. So I would say the odds on your last are pretty good!

Haydn (an quiet year between 2 big years);
Hob 01_092 Symphony #92 in G
Hob 15_13 Trio in c for Piano & Strings
Hob 15_14 Trio in Ab for Piano & Strings
Hob 16_48 Sonata #58 in C for Fortepiano
Hob 17_04 Fantasia in C for Keyboard
Hob 24b_14 Aria for Tenor "Se tu mi sprezzi, ingrata"

Mozart: (K6 then K1 #'s)
570   570   Sonata f/Kybd   --   Bb
571   571   6 German Dances   --   var
571a    A005 Humerous Qrt   Caro mio Druck und Schluck   Eb
572   572   Arrangement of a Handel Oratorio   Messiah   G
573   573   9 Variations f/Kybd   Duport Variationen   D
574   574   Little Gigue f/Kybd   --   G
575   575   Quartet f/St   --   D
576   576   Sonata f/Kybd   --   D
576a   A034/2   Minuet f/Kybd   --   D
576b   355   Minuet f/Kybd   --   D
577   577   Rondo f/S   Al desio, di chi t'adora   F
578   578   Aria f/S   Alma grande e nobil core   Bb
579   579   Aria f/S   Un moto di gioia mi sento   G
580   580   Aria f/S   Schon lacht der holde Frühling   Bb
580a   A094   Adagio f/Winds   --   C
580b   A090   Quintet Mvmt f/Cl, Bthn & St   --   F
581   581   Quintet f/Cl & St   --   A
581a   A088   Quintet-Concerto Mvmt f/Cl   --   A
582   582   Aria f/S   Chi sà, chi sà, qual sia   C
583   583   Aria f/S   Vado, ma dove? - oh Dei!   Eb
584   584   Aria f/B   Rivolgete a lui lo sguardo   D
585   585   12 Minuets   --   var
586   586   12 German Dances   --   var
587   587   Country Dance   Der Sieg vom Helden Coburg   C
587a   A074   Quartet Mvmt f/St   --   g
588   588   Opera buffa in 2 Acts   Così fan Tutte   C (actually finished in January 1790)

So, some pretty good music for the year! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on January 26, 2013, 07:41:36 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 26, 2013, 04:52:59 PM
:D Well, given that I own the complete works of both Mozart & Haydn, really, where can you go from there? Not up, certainly. So I would say the odds on your last are pretty good!

Haydn (an quiet year between 2 big years);
Hob 01_092 Symphony #92 in G.................

Mozart: (K6 then K1 #'s)
581 581 Quintet f/Cl & St.........................

Hi Gurn - thanks for the listing of Papa's & Wolfie's 1789 recordings; but, I was still curious about who else was composing at that time, so found a listing on Wiki HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Classical_era_composers) - from that list I mainly selected composers alive at the time & ones that I knew (own one or more CDs of nearly all) - first, there were a LOT of excellent guys putting notes on paper then, however, despite some favorites of mine (such as Luigi B.), it is hard to top Haydn & Mozart (which I knew all along - ;) :D) - Dave

QuoteAlbrechtsberger, J.(1736-1809)
Bach, JCF (1732-1795)
Beck, Franz (1734-1809)
Benda, Georg (1722-1795)
Boccherini, Luigi (1743-1805)
Cherubini, Luigi (1760-1842)
Clementi, Muzio (1752-1832)
Danzi, Franz (1763-1826)
Devienne, Francois (1759-1803)
Ditters, Carl (1739-1799)
Druschetzky, Georg (1745-1819)
Dussek, Johann (1760-1812)
Eberl, Anton (1765-1807)
Eybler, Joseph (1765-1846)
Fasch, Carl (1736-1800)
Forster, Emanuel (1748-1823)
Fuchs, Georg (1752-1821)
Gossec, F-J (1734-1829)
Gyrowetz, Adalbert (1763-1850)
Haydn, Joseph (1732-1809)
Haydn, Michael (1737-1806)
Herschel, William (1752-1818)
Hoffmeister, Franz (1754-1812)
Hofmann, Leopold (1738-1793)
Kozeluch, Leopold (1747-1818)
Kraus, Joseph Martin (1756-1792)
Krommer, Franz (1759-1831)
Kreutzer, Rodolphe (1766-1831)
Lickl, Johann (1769-1843)
Mozart, WA (1756-1791)
Pichl, Vaclav (1741-1804)
Pleyel, Ignaz (1757-1831)
Reicha, Josef (1752-1795)
Rolla, Alessandro (1757-1841)
Rosetti, Antonio (c.1750-1792)
Salieri, Antonio (1750-1825)
Stamitz, Carl (1745-1801)
Tietz, Anton (1742-1797)
Tomasini, Luigi (1741-1808)
Viotti, Giovanni (1755-1824)
Wranitzky, Anton (1761-1820)
Wranitzky, Paul (1756-1808)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on January 27, 2013, 12:37:00 AM

I've just discovered a good way of listening to Haydn symphonies where you get a sense of his development without having to listen to all of them (I have listened to all of them through in order a couple of times, but it takes several weeks!)!

Get a list of the symphonies in their real order (ie not the traditional numbering) and select a number between 1 and 10, then, if you've chosen 6, say, then listen to 6, 16, 26 &c, up to 106. This gives you a quick survey of his symphonies, ending with a Paris Symphony and a London symphony or two.

;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on January 27, 2013, 04:10:33 AM

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on January 27, 2013, 12:37:00 AM
I've just discovered a good way of listening to Haydn symphonies where you get a sense of his development without having to listen to all of them (I have listened to all of them through in order a couple of times, but it takes several weeks!)!

Get a list of the symphonies in their real order (ie not the traditional numbering) and select a number between 1 and 10, then, if you've chosen 6, say, then listen to 6, 16, 26 &c, up to 106. This gives you a quick survey of his symphonies, ending with a Paris Symphony and a London symphony or two.

;D

That would work plenty well, even with the tradition numbering, no?

But even so, I've done anyone interested the favor of pairing them up like that, using the chronological numbering to determine the order but giving them here in the still prevalent Hoboken order:

Set1: 1-107--36--13--38--43--54--70--81--89--99 (http://www.seenandheard-international.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Haydn_SyMphony_no.99_3.jpg)
Set2: 37--25--33--23--58--52--60--53--80--90-101
Set3: 18--11---9--22--35--42--56--75--79--91-100
Set4: 2---5-108--21--59--47--57--63--87--92-102
Set5: 4--32--14--24--49--45--68--62--85--95-103
Set6: 27--15--12--30--26--46--67--74--83--96-104
Set7: 10---3--40--31--41--51--69--73--84--93-105
Set8: 20---6--16--39--65--64--66--78--86--94
Set9: 17---7--34--29--48--50--61--77--82--97
Set10: 19---8--72--28--44--55--71--76--88--98

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 27, 2013, 04:18:33 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 26, 2013, 03:12:31 PM
I know I've posted this before, but as much as I watch I just can't go too long without another posting. Here is Bernstein and the VPO performing an encore of Haydn's "Oxford" final movement.

http://www.youtube.com/v/XclKeS0vaiM

I can't believe nobody corrected me!! This is what happens when it's late and I've got beer in my belly. It's not 92, it's 88!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 27, 2013, 04:22:50 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 26, 2013, 04:52:59 PM
:D Well, given that I own the complete works of both Mozart & Haydn, really, where can you go from there? Not up, certainly. So I would say the odds on your last are pretty good!

Haydn (an quiet year between 2 big years);
Hob 01_092 Symphony #92 in G
Hob 15_13 Trio in c for Piano & Strings
Hob 15_14 Trio in Ab for Piano & Strings
Hob 16_48 Sonata #58 in C for Fortepiano
Hob 17_04 Fantasia in C for Keyboard
Hob 24b_14 Aria for Tenor "Se tu mi sprezzi, ingrata"

Mozart: (K6 then K1 #'s)
570   570   Sonata f/Kybd   --   Bb
571   571   6 German Dances   --   var
571a    A005 Humerous Qrt   Caro mio Druck und Schluck   Eb
572   572   Arrangement of a Handel Oratorio   Messiah   G
573   573   9 Variations f/Kybd   Duport Variationen   D
574   574   Little Gigue f/Kybd   --   G
575   575   Quartet f/St   --   D
576   576   Sonata f/Kybd   --   D
576a   A034/2   Minuet f/Kybd   --   D
576b   355   Minuet f/Kybd   --   D
577   577   Rondo f/S   Al desio, di chi t'adora   F
578   578   Aria f/S   Alma grande e nobil core   Bb
579   579   Aria f/S   Un moto di gioia mi sento   G
580   580   Aria f/S   Schon lacht der holde Frühling   Bb
580a   A094   Adagio f/Winds   --   C
580b   A090   Quintet Mvmt f/Cl, Bthn & St   --   F
581   581   Quintet f/Cl & St   --   A
581a   A088   Quintet-Concerto Mvmt f/Cl   --   A
582   582   Aria f/S   Chi sà, chi sà, qual sia   C
583   583   Aria f/S   Vado, ma dove? - oh Dei!   Eb
584   584   Aria f/B   Rivolgete a lui lo sguardo   D
585   585   12 Minuets   --   var
586   586   12 German Dances   --   var
587   587   Country Dance   Der Sieg vom Helden Coburg   C
587a   A074   Quartet Mvmt f/St   --   g
588   588   Opera buffa in 2 Acts   Così fan Tutte   C (actually finished in January 1790)

So, some pretty good music for the year! :)

8)

A list from wiki:

QuoteLudwig van Beethoven – Two Preludes through all twelve major keys for piano, Op. 39
William Crotch – The Captivity of Judah (oratorio)
Joseph Haydn – Symphony No. 92 in G, "Oxford"
Leopold Anton Kozeluch – Concerto for Clarinet no 2 in E flat major
Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart – Clarinet Quintet in A

Opera
Domenico Cimarosa – I Due Baroni
André Grétry – Raoul Barbe-Bleue
Giovanni Paisiello – Nina
Johann Friedrich Reichardt – Brenno; Claudine von Villa Bella
Antonio Salieri – Il Pastor fido; La Cifra; both with libretto by Lorenzo Da Ponte
Stephen Storace – The Haunted Tower

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Marc on January 27, 2013, 05:29:31 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 27, 2013, 04:18:33 AM
I can't believe nobody corrected me!! This is what happens when it's late and I've got beer in my belly. It's not 92, it's 88!!

:-[

Although I gotta admit I did not even listen to it .... I only wanted to defend the son against the father.

But of course, Haydn connaisseur Gurn B. sould be utterly ashamed of himself. (http://107.imagebam.com/download/KT2QyGWqyetARP5K5QPUKA/23426/234253823/smiley-hammer.gif)

:P

Here's no. 92 with a delay. Bernstein and the Wiener Phil:

http://www.youtube.com/v/z_oVBR5ch78

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 27, 2013, 05:48:58 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 27, 2013, 04:18:33 AM
I can't believe nobody corrected me!! This is what happens when it's late and I've got beer in my belly. It's not 92, it's 88!!

Don't beat yourself up, Greg. It's an easy mistake to make. Afterall, Haydn wrote the same symphony 104 times ;)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Marc on January 27, 2013, 06:44:01 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 27, 2013, 05:48:58 AM
Don't beat yourself up, Greg. It's an easy mistake to make. Afterall, Haydn wrote the same symphony 104 times ;)

>:(

Come out and take it, you d**** yellow-bellied r**!

;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on January 27, 2013, 06:53:55 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 27, 2013, 04:18:33 AM
I can't believe nobody corrected me!! This is what happens when it's late and I've got beer in my belly. It's not 92, it's 88!!

Very good. Very very good. Very very very good.

I once saw Rattle conduct a large section of Walkure like that in London, but I can't recall ever seeing it happen anywhere else. A friend of mine used to go to Klemperer concerts after his accident with the fire , or maybe it was a stroke, and he said he conducted whole concerts like that, sitting down.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 27, 2013, 06:56:08 AM

Quote from: Marc on January 27, 2013, 05:29:31 AM
:-[

Although I gotta admit I did not even listen to it .... I only wanted to defend the son against the father.

But of course, Haydn connaisseur Gurn B. sould be utterly ashamed of himself. (http://107.imagebam.com/download/KT2QyGWqyetARP5K5QPUKA/23426/234253823/smiley-hammer.gif)

:P

Here's no. 92 with a delay. Bernstein and the Wiener Phil:

http://www.youtube.com/v/z_oVBR5ch78

:-[ I didn't listen to it either. In fact, I was listening to the year 1788 at the time and figured to work up to it. I guess I shouldn't have assumed.... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on January 27, 2013, 07:26:43 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 22, 2013, 07:37:21 PM
There's also the impact of piano reductions and chamber arrangements which were sold with an eye on those people who might not get the chance to ever hear an orchestra play Haydn but had heard of his music and were curious as to what it sounded like. Plus, in middle and upper class households, the presence of at least one young lady able to play the harp or a keyboard instrument was almost taken for granted, and gentlemen with at least some facility on a musical instrument were usually not far away.

I didn't know that were piano reductions of Haydn symphonies? Who made them?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 27, 2013, 07:32:46 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on January 27, 2013, 07:26:43 AM
I didn't know that were piano reductions of Haydn symphonies? Who made them?

Haydn officially did the "Laudon" symphony (Hob 69 in C) but intentionally left off the Finale, saying that it wouldn't work on a piano anyway. I don't know any others that he did himself, although everyone and their brother did piano reductions back them, most of them uncredited (hired by the publisher, so to say). :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2013, 10:15:35 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on January 28, 2013, 09:07:22 AM
Speaking of books, I just received this one:

[asin]0226768147[/asin]

I bought a "like new" hard cover from a AMP seller, and which is exactly as described for ~ $45. I am looking forward to reading it since the subject of keyboards used during Haydn's lifetime is of interest to me. This book may also touch on the topic of keyboard reductions of orchestral works during this period.

:)

Ah, nice acquisition! Let us know what you think. Especially of interest to me is whether it is intelligible to a non-professional, or if I will have to hire Karl to come down and read it to me. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 29, 2013, 04:09:29 AM

In poking through some back-alley folders, I found the attached, which I include here for the sake of the program notes for a Haydn symphony, not all that frequent in Symphony Hall these days.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 29, 2013, 04:17:20 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 29, 2013, 04:09:29 AM
In poking through some back-alley folders, I found the attached, which I include here for the sake of the program notes for a Haydn symphony, not all that frequent in Symphony Hall these days.

That was quite interesting, Karl. I think the writer could have gotten more mileage out of the Cors Anglais bit by mentioning that they were used here, not as a supplement, but in place of the oboes. That would be the uniqueness, would it not? Anyway. looks like a nice evening spent though! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 29, 2013, 04:20:47 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 29, 2013, 04:17:20 AM
That was quite interesting, Karl. I think the writer could have gotten more mileage out of the Cors Anglais bit by mentioning that they were used here, not as a supplement, but in place of the oboes. That would be the uniqueness, would it not? Anyway. looks like a nice evening spent though! :)

8)

It was a while ago, but I remember the evening well, Gurn!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 29, 2013, 04:25:53 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 29, 2013, 04:20:47 AM
It was a while ago, but I remember the evening well, Gurn!

Indeed, and how not? When I went to the Atlanta Symphony in 1999, I saw Joshua Bell playing Saint-Saëns, and Franck's Le Chasseur Maudit, but ultimately it was the opener of Haydn #98 that I remember best. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 29, 2013, 04:33:04 AM

And here was a program which was essentially a thumbnail History of the Symphony from the Beginning to the present day: early-ish "Papa", a Brahms symphony which looks back even past "Papa", and The Latest. And lo! it was All Good.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on January 30, 2013, 06:54:40 PM

I've just been pottering around amongst the early symphonies of Haydn and a thought occurred to me. Looking at the traditional numbers and at a modern attempted chronological list it seems that many of the early three movement symphonies are given numbers which are too low. Could it be that the first editors assumed that Haydn began writing three movement symphonies and moved on to four movement works?

I assume that the real story about Haydn's three and four movements works is that he wrote both until four movement works began to predominate later. The actual decision about the number of movements depended on whether he had trumpets and drums available, if he didn't he wrote a three movement work, if he did he wrote a Minuet and Trio in addition.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 31, 2013, 04:44:46 AM

Sorry, Karl, you posted while I was moving that conversation;

Here (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21421.msg693084.html#msg693084)

We need to share that with the rest of the world, don't you think?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 31, 2013, 04:49:25 AM

Agreed.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Octave on January 31, 2013, 11:08:52 PM

I have not been able to find comment on Alain Planès' Haydn recordings. I mainly see these two on HM:

[asin]B001ONSWDE[/asin]
[asin]B001ONSWD4[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 01, 2013, 04:29:01 AM

Quote from: Octave on January 31, 2013, 11:08:52 PM
I have not been able to find comment on Alain Planès' Haydn recordings. I mainly see these two on HM:

[asin]B001ONSWDE[/asin]
[asin]B001ONSWD4[/asin]

I have read that they are very good. I only have period instrument recordings, and so haven't invested in these, but seems that someone here posted that they were very good indeed. Actually, I'm curious myself. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on February 01, 2013, 04:51:07 AM

Octave, you will have a chance to listen to a selection from those volumes when you receive your copy of the Lumières box. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 01, 2013, 06:29:28 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 01, 2013, 04:29:01 AM
I have read that they are very good. I only have period instrument recordings, and so haven't invested in these, but seems that someone here posted that they were very good indeed. Actually, I'm curious myself. :)

8)

Yes, very good; not better, but at the same level that Brendel or McCabe, if we're talking about modern piano. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 02, 2013, 05:31:54 PM

So... a bit of the « Emperor » quartet appears momentarily in the Columbo episode, "Sex and the Married Detective."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Octave on February 02, 2013, 10:15:33 PM

Gurn, Nav, and GS, thanks for that input. Re: that LUMIERES box, I know I've hit 'problem' territory when I'm about to duplicate-purchase recordings the first copy of which I have not received yet! :blank:

Also thanks to Gurn et al for the synoptic/comparative type essay posts, recently on the Baryton works and the two-part comparison of some HIP CREATIONs (~p.202+, maybe a bit before). Really useful, those.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on February 03, 2013, 08:31:39 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on February 03, 2013, 05:14:22 AM
After spending some time with the book (http://www.worldcat.org/title/keyboard-sonatas-of-joseph-haydn-instruments-and-performance-practice-genres-and-styles/oclc/29181662&referer=brief_results), having read the first three chapters and skimmed the remaining sections, I would say that it is about one-third to one-half within the grasp of someone with little or no musical training or the ability to read a score. This would include the chapters on the instruments Haydn may have owned (including the various makers) and composed on (which is part of the larger sections on the development of the keyboards during Haydn's time), as well as the introductory sections on understanding Haydn's notational markings (as compared with today's understanding of them), sonata form and genres.

I'd say anyone interested in the historical aspect of the keyboards available and used by Haydn, as well as what texts and composers he was probably influenced by, will find about one-third to enjoy. But if the meaning of terms such as exposition, double-bar or embellishments is a bit fuzzy, or for someone with little or no interest in music theory, the book may have a significant amount of frustrating text.

I don't wish to under-promote the book, since for someone with an interest in this topic the areas which may at first appear frustrating can with a little effort be taken in. I'd say, the historical chapters are much less technical than the Charles Rosen book, The Classical Style, but those chapters dealing with theory are about at the same level as his book.

:)

Does this discuss the influence (if any) of C P E Bach?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 03, 2013, 08:48:28 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on February 03, 2013, 05:14:22 AM
After spending some time with the book (http://www.worldcat.org/title/keyboard-sonatas-of-joseph-haydn-instruments-and-performance-practice-genres-and-styles/oclc/29181662&referer=brief_results), having read the first three chapters and skimmed the remaining sections, I would say that it is about one-third to one-half within the grasp of someone with little or no musical training or the ability to read a score. This would include the chapters on the instruments Haydn may have owned (including the various makers) and composed on (which is part of the larger sections on the development of the keyboards during Haydn's time), as well as the introductory sections on understanding Haydn's notational markings (as compared with today's understanding of them), sonata form and genres.

I'd say anyone interested in the historical aspect of the keyboards available and used by Haydn, as well as what texts and composers he was probably influenced by, will find about one-third to enjoy. But if the meaning of terms such as exposition, double-bar or embellishments is a bit fuzzy, or for someone with little or no interest in music theory, the book may have a significant amount of frustrating text.

I don't wish to under-promote the book, since for someone with an interest in this topic the areas which may at first appear frustrating can with a little effort be taken in. I'd say, the historical chapters are much less technical than the Charles Rosen book, The Classical Style, but those chapters dealing with theory are about at the same level as his book.

:)

Excellent, thanks for that, San. I tend to wade right into books like that and come away with mixed feelings over it. I just finished my second reading of The Classical Style and they were about 10 years apart. I was rather delighted that this time I understood about 40% more jargon. The things that throw me (and irritate to some extent) are where the author will say "it is obvious that Schubert was influenced in this part by Mozart **2 pages of score here** see here? **2 more pages of score here**. Ahd that's it, no further explanation needed. OK.... :-\

Well, the history and instrument info alone sound like they will make it worthwhile. Thanks again. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on February 07, 2013, 08:23:12 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 07, 2013, 12:21:10 AM
What, no deep thought, no personal utterances, just entertainment? You're a lackey of the aristocracy, like that old, liveried, wigged guy... can't remember his name... ! ;D ;D ;D

What kind of sissy would write music like that?!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 07, 2013, 12:43:55 PM

Quote from: Octave on February 02, 2013, 10:15:33 PM
Gurn, Nav, and GS, thanks for that input. Re: that LUMIERES box, I know I've hit 'problem' territory when I'm about to duplicate-purchase recordings the first copy of which I have not received yet! :blank:

Welcome to our CDCDCD Rehab Center. :D

QuoteAlso thanks to Gurn et al for the synoptic/comparative type essay posts, recently on the Baryton works and the two-part comparison of some HIP CREATIONs (~p.202+, maybe a bit before). Really useful, those.

You are most welcome. If you use the table of contents links you will also find a note on the trumpet concerto which I am rather pleased with. What a nice piece of music that is; never tire of it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 07, 2013, 12:48:32 PM

Quote from: Brian on February 07, 2013, 08:23:12 AM
Quote from: FlorestanWhat, no deep thought, no personal utterances, just entertainment? You're a lackey of the aristocracy, like that old, liveried, wigged guy... can't remember his name... ! ;D ;D ;D

What kind of sissy would write music like that?!

:P to both of you then. :D Your Romantic 'deep thinkers' wouldn't have had a leg to stand on if it wasn't for the shallow thinkers who came before... ummm, wait, that come out all wrong then, didn't it? :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on February 07, 2013, 03:00:32 PM

I'm not a hater, Gurn!

Maybe it would help if I typed up a little essay about Haydn I found interesting?

Haydn and Tradition
Vagn Holmboe
translated by Paul Rapoport

I think it is a common assumption that many young composers equate tradition and stagnation; and that is certainly in keeping with youth's traditional clash with the idols of the older generation or its struggle against derivatively empty phrases and forms, which a creative composer must feel are stale and lifeless and therefore loudly repudiates.

Young composers naturally are right to fight what they feel is burdensome tradition, a dead weight, which they must discard in their independent and free striving after new content and new forms. But they are not right in summarily equating tradition, stagnation and imitation. The consequences of that attitude may be catastrophic for those same young people; and if they cling to it past a normal rebellious phase, they will merely achieve a pseudo-liberation which all too easily ends up in rootless sterility.

Tradition is often regarded as a constraint and (especially after the First World War) has been likened to stagnation. This is undoubtedly due to the multiple meanings of the word. The concept is not a fixed one; for it may certainly involve simple imitation, derivativeness which is perhaps correct but insipid, but it may also mean a foundation of experience, which for the composer may be a standard and an inspiring stimulus to fresh creative work with the conditions of a new age. I must understand the concept in this latter sense, and as far as I can recall, as a composer I have always regarded tradition as a cultural heritage which was felt not to be an enforced obligation but a merciful gift.

When I was quite young, I was interviewed by a journalist who in the course of the conversation asked which composers I was especially influenced by: the interviewer obviously expected that I would repudiate the classical tradition and mention exclusively the great contemporary musical vanguard.

When I mentioned Haydn first of all, the journalist was both surprised and dismayed, because my answer was not at all in agreement with the traditional picture, the one he too had formed of youth; and that a young modern composer could be influenced by an antique like Haydn was in his eyes something close to unnatural.

In the interview there was no room for a closer justification, but here it is, many years later.

-

That admiration for Haydn's music is instinctive, that it is anchored in an immediate attraction without any reflection is, to be sure, a principal cause; but it is hardly a sufficient explanation, the less so as several composers might be mentioned for whom I have an absolute and deep admiration, but who do not have this special attraction. On the other hand, an attempt to give an adequate impression of Haydn's greatness as a composer is not possible here, so I must be content to point out a few features which may perhaps shed a little light on the matter.

On a superficial hearing, Haydn's music is uncomplicated, accommodating and easily accessible. Its humour, its drama and its unerring formulation of concise material are understood just as readily as a fairy-tale is understood by any child. Many people stop there in their evaluation of Haydn, resign themselves to it, and in so doing spread around the notion of 'Papa Haydn,' the good and kind composer who writes very nice music, easy to listen to, but without the depths of a Mozart or a Beethoven. But we must not be fooled: Haydn's music is like the fairy-tale, or like an iceberg. Under the visible (or audible) surface unsuspected powers are hidden which are released and comprehended only by a receptive, reflective and sensitive mind. It would take far too much space to go further into this, to become immersed in his symphonies, quartets and sonatas and describe the fantastic, effortless balance between form and content that is so assured that you do not think about it for a minute when you listen to the music. Haydn's form is created directly by the spontaneous, richly varied content and is thus unique for every single work.

There is, however, one item which from my point of view is important to bring out, namely, Haydn's close connection with folk music. This is due not so much to a direct adoption of tunes from the folk music by which he was surrounded, and knew so well—attractive songs and dances of Austrian, Hungarian, Croatian, Slovakian origins—but in far deeper measure to the fact that his music has its roots in folk music. No matter how complicated, subtle and refined his form and technique may become over the years, he always preserves the spontaneously human and straightforwardly musical utterance, which is fundamental to all folk music.

Many composers, and perhaps basically all the great ones, have their roots deep down in the primal layers of the human mind, from which all folk music arises; and they all have the ability to join the simple, the clear and the possibly naïve to a fairly advanced technique and intellectual mode of expression. The overall power of individual renewal and collective tradition has always been important in European music. Without renewal, music turns into a weak echo, a banality; but if tradition is cut away, music will be dehumanised. It will turn into cerebral concoctions and empty postulation.

Technique, style and mode of expression have changed, both before and after Haydn, in accord with the changing times. But Haydn was innovative to an unusual extent and developed his highly personal and intellectually sophisticated music in the light of a powerful tradition. Thus he can be an example to any era, but like the other great composers from the past and the present, he cannot be imitated without fatal consequences. For mere imitation will simply betray tradition, which is a gift and a stimulus to renewal.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/4184R60G7SL._SL500_AA300_.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Experiencing-Music-Composers-Notes-Musicians/dp/0907689167/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1360281547&sr=8-1&keywords=experiencing+music+holmboe)
There's no ASIN code but the image links to Amazon.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 07, 2013, 04:32:48 PM

Quote from: Brian on February 07, 2013, 03:00:32 PM
I'm not a hater, Gurn!

Maybe it would help if I typed up a little essay about Haydn I found interesting?

....................

It never even entered my mind that you might be, Brian. However, if you were motivated to then enter this Holmboe essay, I can be pleased enough with that. It is quite interesting. It serves well to reinforce my contention in this thread about a year ago that musicians/composers who didn't appreciate the value of Haydn, indeed, didn't totally embrace his music, are thin on the ground indeed.

In one of the first issues of the Allegemeine Musikalisches Zeitung (AMZ), the leading musical journal of Austria/Germany from 1797 to 1850, there was a long article by a contributor called 'Z' (everyone knew it was Zelter, but they were allowed anonymity), which called to account all of the disciples of Haydn and Mozart. The long and short of it was that these 2 composers had developed wonderful and surprising little tricks and expressions that made their music unique. He went on to list several of them, all of which you would recognize. In any case, his argument is that the fact that these devices had been taken up by all the followers, so that every work heard in the last 10 years had contained many or all of them had totally taken away any sense of wonder at their uniqueness. Each composer needs to be original.

One of the reasons that Haydn slipped into disfavor after his death is that there were so many people writing music a la Haydn that people were tired of it. Beethoven's personal idiom was very strongly rooted in Haydnism, but he had to make a strong effort to distance himself in order to maintain his individuality. So in any case, I certainly am not looking for anyone to write music like Haydn did. I am just looking to encourage people to listen to Haydn's music on his terms, not "as opposed to...". It isn't easy to turn ones listening mind into a tabula rasa, but worth the effort with any composer at all, let alone one of Haydn's caliber. I realize that not everyone has my innate talent to have nothing whatsoever in my head at any given time.... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 07, 2013, 11:49:59 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 07, 2013, 12:48:32 PM
:P to both of you then. :D

Hey, I'm completely innocent! Brian took that quote out of its proper context. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 08, 2013, 12:13:15 AM

Excellent Holmboe essay, Brian, thanks for taking the time to type it for us!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 08, 2013, 04:31:38 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 07, 2013, 04:32:48 PM
One of the reasons that Haydn slipped into disfavor after his death is that there were so many people writing music a la Haydn that people were tired of it.

Cf. Debussy: The 'Debussyists' are killing me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 08, 2013, 04:54:10 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 08, 2013, 04:31:38 AM
Cf. Debussy: The 'Debussyists' are killing me.

Précisément!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 08, 2013, 11:56:03 AM

My most recent Haydn acquisition - Symphonies 6,7, & 8 w/ the Apollo Ensemble - a Gurn recommendation here (and also as an Amazon review); I've had this CD for over a week; this is a PI group using a small orchestra (7 strings, 2 oboes, 1 flute, 1 bassoon, & 2 horns - no harpsichord); these works were composed in 1761 and the main goal was to 're-create' the scene at that time; the liner notes are excellent in describing this purpose.

But while listening (multiple times now), I was also reading about Haydn's orchestra at Esterhaza in the book below; in the appendix, the Esterhazy Kapelle of 1776 had about 20 members (7 violins, 2 violas, 1 cello, 1 DblBass, 2 oboes, 2 clarinets, 2 bassoons, 2 horns, & 1 timpani). In a chapter entitled 'The Life & Times of an Eighteenth-Century Orchestra Musician', about 6 pages are devoted to describing the Esterhazy Kapelle (c. late 1760s to 1770s) - while reading this section, I just jotted down some summary comments (w/ editing & paraphrasing), SO attached is just a short text file for those interested in becoming an 18th C. musician housed on a palace estate! :) Dave

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-tpQzsZS/0/O/HaydnSymph678Apollo.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-x6p5sX7/0/M/Orchestra_Book-M.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 08, 2013, 12:05:55 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 08, 2013, 11:56:03 AM
My most recent Haydn acquisition - Symphonies 6,7, & 8 w/ the Apollo Ensemble - a Gurn recommendation here (and also as an Amazon review); I've had this CD for over a week; this is a PI group using a small orchestra (7 strings, 2 oboes, 1 flute, 1 bassoon, & 2 horns - no harpsichord); these works were composed in 1761 and the main goal was to 're-create' the scene at that time; the liner notes are excellent in describing this purpose.

But while listening (multiple times now), I was also reading about Haydn's orchestra at Esterhaza in the book below; in the appendix, the Esterhazy Kapelle of 1776 had about 20 members (7 violins, 2 violas, 1 cello, 1 DblBass, 2 oboes, 2 clarinets, 2 bassoons, 2 horns, & 1 timpani). In a chapter entitled 'The Life & Times of an Eighteenth-Century Orchestra Musician', about 6 pages are devoted to describing the Esterhazy Kapelle (c. late 1760s to 1770s) - while reading this section, I just jotted down some summary comments (w/ editing & paraphrasing), SO attached is just a short text file for those interested in becoming an 18th C. musician housed on a palace estate! :) Dave

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-tpQzsZS/0/O/HaydnSymph678Apollo.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-x6p5sX7/0/M/Orchestra_Book-M.jpg)

Ah, nice choice, Dave.

1776 was the year the opera house opened, and the band was about as big as it ever would be. This was also the only time that Haydn had clarinets to play with, but he declined. In the 18 months or so that they were there he didn't do anything with them. Pity really. from around 1760 when he must have known some clarinetists (at Morzin's??) to London, when he suddenly realized how cool they were, he was clarinet free.

Back in the earliest times of Esterházy's band, he had maybe 16 players. Hard to know exactly, since the valet could be a fiddler if need be.... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mahler10th on February 08, 2013, 05:55:02 PM

The Symphony 45 "Farewell" - in many ways it I can almost hear Haydn laughing in it, and he's waving goodbye from the very start of it. It's a great work.
Just sayin', like. :o

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on February 08, 2013, 11:02:23 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 08, 2013, 11:56:03 AM
But while listening (multiple times now), I was also reading about Haydn's orchestra at Esterhaza in the book below; in the appendix, the Esterhazy Kapelle of 1776 had about 20 members (7 violins, 2 violas, 1 cello, 1 DblBass, 2 oboes, 2 clarinets, 2 bassoons, 2 horns, & 1 timpani). In a chapter entitled 'The Life & Times of an Eighteenth-Century Orchestra Musician', about 6 pages are devoted to describing the Esterhazy Kapelle (c. late 1760s to 1770s) - while reading this section, I just jotted down some summary comments (w/ editing & paraphrasing), SO attached is just a short text file for those interested in becoming an 18th C. musician housed on a palace estate! :) Dave

Thank you for the notes, Dave. Quite informative. Seems like the musicians had to bend over backwards for the prince to lead an upright life.

Quote from: Scots John on February 08, 2013, 05:55:02 PM
The Symphony 45 "Farewell" - in many ways it I can almost hear Haydn laughing in it, and he's waving goodbye from the very start of it. It's a great work.
Just sayin', like. :o

Haydn and Wodehouse -- two people who can somehow connect with me from their graves and make me laugh.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on February 08, 2013, 11:43:27 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 08, 2013, 12:05:55 PM
Pity really. from around 1760 when he must have known some clarinetists (at Morzin's??) to London, when he suddenly realized how cool they were, he was clarinet free.

Hypothesis: he had found the sound of clarinet independent and urbane, not proper for the rhetoric to be used in the country court (even if he had used this rhetoric as the ground for the intellectual persiflage) - in London Haydn did not realize that the clarinet is enough cool for his music, he relized that London is enough cool for the clarinet.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 09, 2013, 06:29:46 AM

Part of my Nemo listening last night (in the post-Bruckner cool-down) were the great C Major and E^b Major sonatas, played by Beghin. Overall, I find his box a great service and a rich resource, certainly. It is no black mark to him if I feel I've heard both these sonatas done better yet.

Once again: thanks to all you denizens of dis here Haus for all you do!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 09, 2013, 07:53:01 AM

Discovering Haydn's Music
Part 1
Introduction

During and since my previous series of Haydn essays, where I tried to give some biographical details, and a sampling of recordings, I spoke with many people in the Haus and via PM who wanted to give Haydn a chance for a listen, but just didn't know where to start. I wanted to address this in some way, but it has taken me quite some time to come up with some sort of format that might work for most people. And be simple enough for me to work with. :)

I think that some obstacles to getting into Haydn's music lie in the sheer amount of it, the cataloging that seems senseless and the outright falsehoods that are perpetuated against it.

Yes, Haydn was a professional composer and part of his job was to write music most days. After 40 + years, things began to accumulate, so there is a lot of it. I will try to sort this for you, at the same step as we deal with the Hoboken Catalog; that is, one at a time. Only way to do it, isn't it? As for the stories one hears ('no point even listening to piano trios before the very last ones' is one, another is 'all the symphonies sound alike'), I think we will be able to dispel those with a little judicious listening and some open-minded thinking. Which I say because after 10 years spent here virtually every day, I know that a lot of people already have their minds made up about music from 1750 to 1780. So we will try to get it off from your personal dustheap and onto your player where it belongs.

The Hoboken Catalog
Since I intend to order these essays by Hoboken group, let's have a view of how it is laid out. Since Haydn wrote in so many genres, and even today precise chronologies are non-existent, Hoboken was faced with quite a task of organization. Anthony von Hoboken was from Rotterdam, The Netherlands, and he came from an engineering background, which probably was an aid in organizing Haydn; "First we clear the swamp!". :)

Unlike your standard catalog (like Mozart/Köchel) Hoboken decided to divide into genres. He gave each group a Roman numeral, and each work within it a Arabic numeral. What could be simpler? Let's look at the list of genres;

Hob.       Category
I      Symphonies (1–108)
Ia    Overtures (1–16)
II    Divertimenti in 4 and more Parts (1–47)
III     String Quartets (1–83b)
IV     Divertimenti in 3 Parts (1–11)
V    String Trios (1–21)
VI     Various Duos (1–6)
VII    Concertos for Various Instruments
VIII     Marches (1–7)
IX     Dances (1–29)
X    Various Works for Baryton (1–12)
XI     Trios for Baryton, Violin or Viola and Cello (1–126)
XII    Duos with Baryton (1–25)
XIII     Concertos for Baryton (1–3) (all lost)
XIV    Divertimenti with Piano (1–13)
XV      Trios for Piano, Violin or Flute and Cello (1–40)
XVa      Piano Duos (Violin sonatas)
XVI      Piano Sonatas (1–52)
XVII      Piano Pieces (1–12)
XVIIa    Piano 4 Hands (1–2)
XVIII    Keyboard Concertos (1–11)
XIX      Pieces for Mechanical Clock (Flötenuhr) (1–32)
XX      Works about The Seven Last Words of Christ
XXa      Stabat Mater
XXI      Oratorios (1, 2, 3)
XXII      Masses (1–14)
XXIII    Other Sacred Works
XXIV    Cantatas and Arias with Orchestra
XXV      Songs with 2, 3, and 4 Parts
XXVI    Songs and Cantatas with Piano
XXVII    Canons (Sacred 1–10; Secular 1–47)
XXVIII Opera (1–13)
XXIX    Marionette Operas (Singspiele)
XXX      Incidental Music
XXXI    Arrangement of Scottish (273) and Welsh (60) Folksongs

As you can see, this was a major task! Within the groups, Hoboken made an effort to organize the works with at least a stab at chronology, but generally speaking he was so in the dark about it that he didn't get a lot of them right. For that reason, there have been a few group reorganizations in recent years, mostly by Robbins-Landon and his crew, but even groups that have been updated (which is no guarantee of accuracy either!) rarely get referenced as such, because the Hoboken numbers are so well established. Still, where they exist I will try to remember to use both sets of numbers. All of us anal people would like the chronology correct, eh? :)

So Part 2 (II?) will begin with the symphonies. I hope you will join me in this journey through the music, and that you will discover some new listening opportunities. As I always do, I invite feedback and questions or answers or additional input or any of that stuff. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on February 09, 2013, 09:37:57 AM

Gurn, it's good to see another little Haydn project coming up. If I may make a suggestion, perhaps you could do this in a separate thread with only your entries, mainly for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the flow and continuity will be maintained throughout: discussions can happen here, so that the essays and the general Haus chatter won't disrupt each other, and each will get the attention it deserves. Secondly, you can provide a single link as a reference instead of worrying about many (of course, if the need arises, you could always link to a single post). :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 09, 2013, 09:49:45 AM

Excellent, Gurn, I can hardly wait for the installments.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mahler10th on February 09, 2013, 10:27:24 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 09, 2013, 07:53:01 AM
Discovering Haydn's Music
Part 1
....I hope you will join me in this journey through the music, and that you will discover some new listening opportunities. As I always do, I invite feedback and questions or answers or additional input or any of that stuff. :)
8)

Magnificent. I am going to take part in this too. Only yesterday I listened to the 28th Symphony and the 'Farewell' Symphony. During listening to the 28th I was struck by how much Haydn was willing to incorporate his new ideas into the work. This will be great. Cheers Gurn. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 09, 2013, 10:37:17 AM

Thanks Gurn for starting this 'new' project on Papa Joe - looking forward to upcoming installments! Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Appy34 on February 09, 2013, 11:02:44 AM

Can't wait to read the essays. Every week this year I've tried to listen to a composer intensively, and Haydn's turn is this coming week. I just wonder where to begin with 106 symphonies and all the other works of his!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 09, 2013, 11:06:36 AM

Thank you all for the encouraging response. Hope I can live up to it. Haydn deserves better, but unfortunately he is stuck with me. :)

Quote from: Opus106 on February 09, 2013, 09:37:57 AM
Gurn, it's good to see another little Haydn project coming up. If I may make a suggestion, perhaps you could do this in a separate thread with only your entries, mainly for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the flow and continuity will be maintained throughout: discussions can happen here, so that the essays and the general Haus chatter won't disrupt each other, and each will get the attention it deserves. Secondly, you can provide a single link as a reference instead of worrying about many (of course, if the need arises, you could always link to a single post). :)

Seems like a good idea, but the only way to make it practicable like that is to keep it locked all the time. Would that seem rude? :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on February 09, 2013, 11:12:14 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 09, 2013, 11:06:36 AM
Seems like a good idea, but the only way to make it practicable like that is to keep it locked all the time. Would that seem rude? :-\

8)

No, not to me. But it would if I were the only other poster on the forum. :D Well, I suppose most people here won't mind keeping off if you tell them gently. ;) And even if the odd errant post ends up there by mistake, you could always move it to the Haus; if it's a troll, I'm sure you have a better idea of what to do. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on February 09, 2013, 11:27:09 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 09, 2013, 11:06:36 AM
Seems like a good idea, but the only way to make it practicable like that is to keep it locked all the time. Would that seem rude? :-\

8)

Another way to go about it, perhaps, since you started this thread, is to go back to the original post and add in links to each part of the continuing essay. That way if I think "oh snap I wonder what Gurn said about XYZ," I at least know where to find the link in a directory post of sorts. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on February 09, 2013, 11:34:07 AM

Quote from: Brian on February 09, 2013, 11:27:09 AM
Another way to go about it, perhaps, since you started this thread, is to go back to the original post and add in links to each part of the continuing essay. That way if I think "oh snap I wonder what Gurn said about XYZ," I at least know where to find the link in a directory post of sorts. :)

That is what he did with the first series. In that case, continuous reading involved having many tabs open. :( Whereas with a single thread, you have the flexibility of looking at it as a whole and in parts, as nothing prevents you from creating an index of Xs, Ys and Zeds. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on February 09, 2013, 11:42:44 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on February 09, 2013, 11:34:07 AM
That is what he did with the first series. In that case, continuous reading involved having many tabs open. :( Whereas with a single thread, you have the flexibility of looking at it as a whole and in parts, as nothing prevents you from creating an index of Xs, Ys and Zeds. :)

Where is the "index" for that first series? It's not in the original post...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on February 09, 2013, 11:44:38 AM

Quote from: Brian on February 09, 2013, 11:42:44 AM
Where is the "index" for that first series? It's not in the original post...

There's a permanent link to it beneath ~~Haydn's~~ Gurn's avatar.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on February 09, 2013, 11:51:36 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on February 09, 2013, 11:44:38 AM
There's a permanent link to it beneath ~~Haydn's~~ Gurn's avatar.

D'oh! Thanks :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on February 09, 2013, 11:57:06 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 09, 2013, 07:53:01 AM
Discovering Haydn's Music
Part 1
Introduction

During and since my previous series of Haydn essays, where I tried to give some biographical details, and a sampling of recordings, I spoke with many people in the Haus and via PM who wanted to give Haydn a chance for a listen, but just didn't know where to start. I wanted to address this in some way, but it has taken me quite some time to come up with some sort of format that might work for most people. And be simple enough for me to work with. :)

Excellant writing as usual Gurn! Look forward to further posts!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 09, 2013, 04:38:00 PM

Quote from: Leo K. on February 09, 2013, 11:57:06 AM
Excellant writing as usual Gurn! Look forward to further posts!

Thanks, Leo. I hope you will enjoy these installments as well.

Fate and Hoboken have conspired to make the first episode both the most important and the most difficult of the entire series. I hope you guys will forgive a bit of time to allow me to get it right. 106 symphonies; Crikey! :o

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on February 09, 2013, 07:49:07 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 09, 2013, 04:38:00 PM
Thanks, Leo. I hope you will enjoy these installments as well.

Fate and Hoboken have conspired to make the first episode both the most important and the most difficult of the entire series. I hope you guys will forgive a bit of time to allow me to get it right. 106 symphonies; Crikey! :o

8)

I'm going to be catching up on your previous series. It's making for fascinating reading!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Octave on February 09, 2013, 08:23:04 PM

The alternate-thread idea is not bad at all, but I wonder if you'd consider starting a dedicated Haydn blog, Gurn. Your "amateur" (lover's) scholarship and investigation is nothing to be ashamed of, and a blog (which could always be made private/invite-only at your pleasure) could collect the entries in a second form without the intervening conversation and variation of topic (which of course I enjoy immensely), to be read one entry after the next. For the world to see! Please do not panic.
Similar blogs in loads of other well-tilled fields have yielded excellent conversations and impressed jaded pros. Two cents from me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 10, 2013, 08:06:44 AM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51OIiECCMXL._SL550_AA350_.jpg)

Release date of Feb 26th in the US. Anyone have it yet?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 10, 2013, 08:08:15 AM

These later pf sonatas have fixed me with their glittering eye of late.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on February 10, 2013, 08:36:12 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 10, 2013, 08:06:44 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51OIiECCMXL._SL550_AA350_.jpg)

Release date of Feb 26th in the US. Anyone have it yet?

Naxos Music Library has an entry for it, but it says album information is not yet available. So for NML subscribers, this will probably be uploaded next week. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 10, 2013, 03:07:44 PM

Hi guys, sorry I missed out on this discussion. Fierce thunderstorms during the night, no electricity from 4 am until a few minutes ago. Grrr....

Quote from: Brian on February 09, 2013, 07:49:07 PM
I'm going to be catching up on your previous series. It's making for fascinating reading!

Thanks, Brian. Hope you enjoy it. :)

Quote from: Octave on February 09, 2013, 08:23:04 PM
The alternate-thread idea is not bad at all, but I wonder if you'd consider starting a dedicated Haydn blog, Gurn. Your "amateur" (lover's) scholarship and investigation is nothing to be ashamed of, and a blog (which could always be made private/invite-only at your pleasure) could collect the entries in a second form without the intervening conversation and variation of topic (which of course I enjoy immensely), to be read one entry after the next. For the world to see! Please do not panic.
Similar blogs in loads of other well-tilled fields have yielded excellent conversations and impressed jaded pros. Two cents from me.

Well, between you and Navneeth you have me thinking about that. It's do-able, no doubt. I just need to put adequate link markers between the two threads. And perhaps eventually move the other series' out to there too.

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 10, 2013, 08:06:44 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51OIiECCMXL._SL550_AA350_.jpg)

Release date of Feb 26th in the US. Anyone have it yet?

When Fey finally completes that set and Hännsler inevitably boxes it up, I think I will get it. I have the first 5 disks, I like his style.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 10, 2013, 04:04:31 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 10, 2013, 03:07:44 PM

When Fey finally completes that set and Hännsler inevitably boxes it up, I think I will get it. I have the first 5 disks, I like his style.

8)

If Fey averages 2.5 symphonies per disc, it will take up to Volume 42, and he's only on 19. This may take a while. Let's hope he records No. 80 and No. 98 before this set folds.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mahler10th on February 10, 2013, 04:19:28 PM

Already posted by Gurn, for reference to his last Haydn series analysis.
Do you know I've missed all of this, and am going to have to do some reading to catch up? ??? I feel terrible that this has been here all the time and I haven't even noticed. So...here goes... :)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2011, 01:10:10 PM
Part 50 - to 1809 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg604911.html#msg604911)
Part 49 - 1800-03 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg604429.html#msg604429)
Part 48 - 1799 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg602821.html#msg602821)
Part 47 - 1798 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg602517.html#msg602517)
Part 46 - 1797 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg600742.html#msg600742)
Part 45 - 1796 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg600616.html#msg600616)
Part 44 - 1795 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg598759.html#msg598759)
Part 43 - 1794 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg598508.html#msg598508)
Part 42 - 1793 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg597776.html#msg597776)
Part 41 - 1792 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg596865.html#msg596865)
Part 40 - 1791 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg596681.html#msg596681)
Part 39 - 1790 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg594545.html#msg594545)
Part 38 - 1789 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg594373.html#msg594373)
Part 37 - 1788 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg592487.html#msg592487)
Part 36 - 1787 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg592319.html#msg592319)
Part 35 - 1786 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg590844.html#msg590844)
Part 34 - 1785 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg590585.html#msg590585)
Part 33 - 1784 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg590236.html#msg590236)
Part 32 - 1783 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg589782.html#msg589782)
Part 31 - 1782 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg589037.html#msg589037)
Part 30 - 1781 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg588095.html#msg588095)
Part 29 - 1780 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg587919.html#msg587919)
Part 28 - 1779 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg587711.html#msg587711)
Part 27 - 1778 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg587647.html#msg587647)
Part 26 - 1777 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg587226.html#msg587226)
Part 25 - 1776 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg587062.html#msg587062)
Part 24 - 1775 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg585967.html#msg585967)
Part 23 - 1774 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg585803.html#msg585803)
Part 22 - 1773 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg585298.html#msg585298)
Part 21 - 1772 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg584599.html#msg584599)
Part 20 - 1771 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg584104.html#msg584104)
Part 19 - 1770 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg584029.html#msg584029)
Part 18 - 1769 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg583472.html#msg583472)
Part 17 - 1768 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg582024.html#msg582024)
Part 16 - 1767 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg580948.html#msg580948)
Part 15 - 1766 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg580103.html#msg580103)
Part 14 - 1765 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg579944.html#msg579944)
Part 13 - 1764 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg579590.html#msg579590)
Part 12 - 1763 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg578825.html#msg578825)
Part 11 - 1762 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg577820.html#msg577820)
Part 10 - 1761 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg577244.html#msg577244)
Part 9 - 1760 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg576614.html#msg576614)
Part 8 - 1759 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg575803.html#msg575803)
Part 7 - 1758 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg575233.html#msg575233)
Part 6 - 1757 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg574523.html#msg574523)
Part 5 - 1756 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg571607.html#msg571607)
Part 4 - 1754-55 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg570590.html#msg570590)
Part 3 - 1753 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg570274.html#msg570274)
Part 2 - 1751 - 52 Well, there IS nothing from those years, sorry. :D
Part 1 - 1749-50 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg570267.html#msg570267)

Discussion of sonates da chiesa (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg579715.html#msg579715)

Discussion of divertimentos (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg575808.html#msg575808)

Keyboard Trios Chronology List (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg581116.html#msg581116)

String Quartets Chronology List (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg582504.html#msg582504)

Symphonies Chronology (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg583636.html#msg583636)

Style Periods in the Symphonies (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg584091.html#msg584091)

Discussion of Notturni for 2 Lira & Ensemble (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg596442.html#msg596442)

The Trumpet Concerto (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg622267.html#msg622267)

Flute & Keyboard Trios (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg629032.html#msg629032)

Masses & Secular Music (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg624789.html#msg624789)

Organ Concertos Part 1 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg672343.html#msg672343)

Organ Concertos Part 2 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg672455.html#msg672455)

Organ Concertos Part 3 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg672499.html#msg672499)

Organ Concertos Part 4 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg674290.html#msg674290)

Organ Concertos Part 5 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg674353.html#msg674353)

The Baryton Octets (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg680875.html#msg680875)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 10, 2013, 04:22:46 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 10, 2013, 04:04:31 PM
If Fey averages 2.5 symphonies per disc, it will take up to Volume 42, and he's only on 19. This may take a while. Let's hope he records No. 80 and No. 98 before this set folds.

To be sure that we just hope there are still cds available. I have noticed a few selections (cannot recall them, but saw them) where the music was only available on download. I am guessing in the next ten years or so that if you want a cd then it will be an older one and very few new ones will be issued.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 10, 2013, 04:23:34 PM

Quote from: Scots John on February 10, 2013, 04:19:28 PM
Already posted by Gurn, for reference to his last Haydn series analysis.
Do you know I've missed all of this, and am going to have to do some reading to catch up? ??? I feel terrible that this has been here all the time and I haven't even noticed. So...here goes... :)

Ah, thanks for that, John. I should have done it myself except for being (as my wife tells me) a slacker of the first water. Well, it will give you something to occupy the mind as you listen to some Haydn... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 10, 2013, 04:27:17 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 10, 2013, 04:04:31 PM
If Fey averages 2.5 symphonies per disc, it will take up to Volume 42, and he's only on 19. This may take a while. Let's hope he records No. 80 and No. 98 before this set folds.

Quote from: Bogey on February 10, 2013, 04:22:46 PM
To be sure that we just hope there are still cds available. I have noticed a few selections (cannot recall them, but saw them) where the music was only available on download. I am guessing in the next ten years or so that if you want a cd then it will be an older one and very few new ones will be issued.

At least Hogwood, although he also was quite stingy with the music (2 per disk except for the very first) gave you 3 disks in a box to compensate. I don't know that I shall live long enough to see Fey's series completed. Less than halfway and it approaches 10 years already! ::)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 10, 2013, 04:30:05 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 10, 2013, 04:27:17 PM
At least Hogwood, although he also was quite stingy with the music (2 per disk except for the very first) gave you 3 disks in a box to compensate. I don't know that I shall live long enough to see Fey's series completed. Less than halfway and it approaches 10 years already! ::)

8)

And with formats shifting and cd sales down, it may be hard to get the funding. The lad better hurry.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 10, 2013, 04:32:15 PM

Here's a question for you folks. Might Fey's run be the last complete Haydn cycle that has a tangible format?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 10, 2013, 04:34:36 PM

Quote from: Bogey on February 10, 2013, 04:32:15 PM
Here's a question for you folks. Might Fey's run be the last complete Haydn cycle that has a tangible format?

Actually, I suspect this one will;

[asin]B001NBS5NE[/asin]

(Dennis Russel Davies)

Which would be a pity.... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 10, 2013, 04:39:52 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 10, 2013, 04:34:36 PM
Actually, I suspect this one will;

[asin]B001NBS5NE[/asin]

(Dennis Russel Davies)

Which would be a pity.... :-

8)

Not a fan?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 10, 2013, 04:40:34 PM

Well, we'll always have ~~Paris~~ Fischer.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 10, 2013, 04:45:50 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 10, 2013, 04:39:52 PM

Not a fan?

Not particularly, although any stab at Haydn's music is better than none. I would have preferred the last complete cycle to be at least on period instruments. Hogwood, Goodman, Solomons, Freiburg Baroque,...... Concerto Köln!!!!!. But not just another modern instrument cycle by a conductor I never even heard of before this. It's impertinent. :(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 10, 2013, 04:46:27 PM

Quote from: Bogey on February 10, 2013, 04:40:34 PM
Well, we'll always have ~~Paris~~ Fischer.

Here's lookin' at you, kid... ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 12, 2013, 07:58:24 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on February 09, 2013, 09:37:57 AM
Gurn, it's good to see another little Haydn project coming up. If I may make a suggestion, perhaps you could do this in a separate thread with only your entries, mainly for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the flow and continuity will be maintained throughout: discussions can happen here, so that the essays and the general Haus chatter won't disrupt each other, and each will get the attention it deserves. Secondly, you can provide a single link as a reference instead of worrying about many (of course, if the need arises, you could always link to a single post). :)

Quote from: Octave on February 09, 2013, 08:23:04 PM
The alternate-thread idea is not bad at all, but I wonder if you'd consider starting a dedicated Haydn blog, Gurn. Your "amateur" (lover's) scholarship and investigation is nothing to be ashamed of, and a blog (which could always be made private/invite-only at your pleasure) could collect the entries in a second form without the intervening conversation and variation of topic (which of course I enjoy immensely), to be read one entry after the next. For the world to see! Please do not panic.
Similar blogs in loads of other well-tilled fields have yielded excellent conversations and impressed jaded pros. Two cents from me.

I've succumbed to ye're blandishments and started that other thread. Hope it works out in reasonable fashion. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 12, 2013, 08:03:27 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 10, 2013, 08:06:44 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51OIiECCMXL._SL550_AA350_.jpg)

Release date of Feb 26th in the US. Anyone have it yet?

I have it pre-ordered but it hasn't shipped yet. It was supposed to be released in Germany yesterday (11 Feb), but neither Amazon nor JPC has it in stock. Odd.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 12, 2013, 08:04:01 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 12, 2013, 07:58:24 AM
I've succumbed to ye're blandishments and started that other thread. Hope it works out in reasonable fashion. :)

8)

\m/

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 12, 2013, 08:04:35 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 12, 2013, 08:03:27 AM
I have it pre-ordered but it hasn't shipped yet. It was supposed to be released in Germany yesterday (11 Feb), but neither Amazon nor JPC has it in stock. Odd.

Sarge

Things take a while to leave The Shire, I'm guessing. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 12, 2013, 08:07:24 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 12, 2013, 08:04:35 AM
Things take a while to leave The Shire, I'm guessing. ;D

Yeah, they are a bit relaxed about business matters. They are too busy eating and smoking.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 12, 2013, 08:09:26 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 12, 2013, 08:07:24 AM
Yeah, they are a bit relaxed about business matters. They are too busy eating and smoking.

Sarge

What a life.

I'm excited to hear No.27 though, interested in hearing Fey roughen it up a little. >:D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 12, 2013, 08:12:20 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 12, 2013, 08:09:26 AM
What a life.

I'm excited to hear No.27 though, interested in hearing Fey roughen it up a little. >:D

Did you read the Hurwitzer review of the Hogwood cycle? Wimpy, he called it. ;D Whatever faults he sometimes finds in Fey's Haydn, wimpiness is not one of them :laugh:

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 12, 2013, 08:15:24 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 12, 2013, 08:12:20 AM
Did you read the Hurwitzer review of the Hogwood cycle? Wimpy, he called it. ;D Whatever faults he sometimes finds in Fey's Haydn, wimpiness is not one of them :laugh:

Sarge

Hurwitz is a well-known idiot, so what he says doesn't matter. He is my personal "Santa Fe Listener".... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on February 12, 2013, 10:06:15 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 12, 2013, 08:09:26 AM
What a life.

I'm excited to hear No.27 though, interested in hearing Fey roughen it up a little. >:D

It's on NML now! (http://naxosmusiclibrary.com/catalogue/item.asp?cid=CD98.005) I've never heard this symphony before, but I am having a darn good time. Very outgoing horns, comparatively recessed harpsichord, which suits me cuz I'm generally speaking not a fan of harpsichord continuo in my Haydn (thus my preference for Weil over Kuijken).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 12, 2013, 10:33:38 AM

Quote from: Brian on February 12, 2013, 10:06:15 AM
It's on NML now! (http://naxosmusiclibrary.com/catalogue/item.asp?cid=CD98.005) I've never heard this symphony before, but I am having a darn good time. Very outgoing horns, comparatively recessed harpsichord, which suits me cuz I'm generally speaking not a fan of harpsichord continuo in my Haydn (thus my preference for Weil over Kuijken).

Thanks for the link, Brian.
Listening now, and once again I love Fey's take on Haydn, just as with the previous 18 volumes. ;D Yes indeed, outgoing horns on No.26, and great balance between the woodwinds and strings. I've always enjoyed the brawn Fey delivers in some movements only to be followed by a sweet admiration for the Adagios.

On to No.42, Fey delivers.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 12, 2013, 07:57:40 PM

From the H-blog, and I quote:

It is very difficult when discussing Haydn's works to simply toss out this or that one, since even his least inspired effort frequently exceeds the best of others.

I think we all agree that when it comes to Gurn on Haydn is that you can't stop him, you can only hope to contain him. Love the blog! Time for some chronological symphonies:

Fischer with 1(1)-dig those horns in the opening!

have to make sure I do not leave the room for my nightly cup of decaf or I might miss half of it. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2013, 04:21:32 AM

:D Thanks, Bill. Glad you are enjoying. Sometimes having more information available only increases the enjoyment. For example, looking at the mentions above by Greg and Brian of Hob 27(6), it would have been hard to believe that it was Haydn's only 6th symphony just by hearing it. And the inference that Count Morzin must have had some great hornists then arises naturally from the music itself. That's what makes the music come alive for me, hopefully others will feel that too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 13, 2013, 04:48:15 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 12, 2013, 08:09:26 AM
I'm excited to hear No.27 though

Me too...because I currently only have one version of 27 (Fischer) and I'm keen to hear a different performance.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 12, 2013, 08:15:24 AM
Hurwitz is a well-known idiot, so what he says doesn't matter. He is my personal "Santa Fe Listener".... :)

:D ;D

I'm a fan but, yeah, he can make idiotic assertions. The Haydn review is especially unfair to Hogwood (and that despite the fact Hurwitz points out objections I have with some of Hogwood's choices). Although supposedly a review of the entire 81 symphony box, he only actually reviews one symphony in detail, 48 "Maria Theresia." Anyway, he praises Hogwood for leaving out the harpsichord but damns him for not taking advantage of that:

"Now the entire point of the continuo is to support the harmony of music which was never intended to support itself, something patently untrue of Haydn's symphonies. So you would think that Hogwood would proceed to show how terrific the music sounds without the continuo: how big, bold, and colorful. Nope. Instead, he chooses the smallest possible forces, omitting trumpets and drums wherever they seemed to be later additions, however authentic. Never mind that these additions show that Haydn preferred larger forces, and that–as with most composers of the period–the ensemble he had likely bore scant resemblance to those he would have deemed optimal."

Me, I sometimes like hearing the music played "small" ....there are plenty of other versions that play up the pomp and ceremony when I want to hear it that way.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 13, 2013, 04:52:32 AM

Quote from: Bogey on February 12, 2013, 07:57:40 PM
I think we all agree that when it comes to Gurn on Haydn is that you can't stop him, you can only hope to contain him. Love the blog! Time for some chronological symphonies:

Fischer with 1(1)-dig those horns in the opening!

have to make sure I do not leave the room for my nightly cup of decaf or I might miss half of it. ;)

:D Yeah, that's a great 12 minutes of music. I think I'll listen to it now.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2013, 05:14:07 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 13, 2013, 04:48:15 AM
"Now the entire point of the continuo is to support the harmony of music which was never intended to support itself, something patently untrue of Haydn's symphonies. So you would think that Hogwood would proceed to show how terrific the music sounds without the continuo: how big, bold, and colorful. Nope. Instead, he chooses the smallest possible forces, omitting trumpets and drums wherever they seemed to be later additions, however authentic. Never mind that these additions show that Haydn preferred larger forces, and that–as with most composers of the period–the ensemble he had likely bore scant resemblance to those he would have deemed optimal."

But Sarge, those additions don't say one single thing about what Haydn's preferences were. Most times they weren't added by him in the first place, but even when they were, it was because the music was being played in a place that had that sort of thing available and wanted to use it and they will have requested parts from him when they asked for the score. So is necessity the mother of preference then? :D

Anyway, I like trumpets and drums as well as the next man, but with all the crap that flies in the direction of the HIMP movement, it shouldn't be on the receiving end of the same criticisms when it DOES do something correctly, even when that doesn't agree with Mr. Hurwitz's taste.

Of course, that's merely my opinion, I could be wrong. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 13, 2013, 05:29:15 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 13, 2013, 04:48:15 AM
Me too...because I currently only have one version of 27 (Fischer) and I'm keen to hear a different performance.
Sarge

Brian linked the Naxos Library site that has this Fey disc, that is if you don't want to wait to hear it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 13, 2013, 05:50:11 AM

Gurn, please, make Haydn's blog sticky. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 13, 2013, 06:14:06 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 13, 2013, 05:29:15 AM
Brian linked the Naxos Library site that has this Fey disc, that is if you don't want to wait to hear it.

Don't you have to be a subscriber to listen?

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on February 13, 2013, 06:38:22 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 13, 2013, 06:14:06 AM
Don't you have to be a subscriber to listen?

Sarge

Yes.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 13, 2013, 06:42:14 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 10, 2013, 04:45:50 PM
Not particularly, although any stab at Haydn's music is better than none. I would have preferred the last complete cycle to be at least on period instruments. Hogwood, Goodman, Solomons, Freiburg Baroque,...... Concerto Köln!!!!!. But not just another modern instrument cycle by a conductor I never even heard of before this. It's impertinent. :(

8)

"[...] by a conductor I never even heard of [...]". Really, Gurn? Has this any importance at all? :)

Recently, I listened to the first four discs of this set ("Early Symphonies"), chronologically ordered to include all the pre-Esterhazy (Eisenstadt) symphonies.

I thought those four discs include some great performances, especially because of the great violin playing, a mix between the traditional non-facist discipline of the Sttutgarters and a great concertmaster as Benjamin Hudson. Additionally, I liked the excellent balance between strings and winds.

Tempi are generally well judged, although the approach is less on the radical side than Fey's, avoiding extreme contrasts.

I hope to continue soon this exploration. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2013, 06:55:44 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on February 13, 2013, 06:42:14 AM
"[...] by a conductor I never even heard of [...]". Really, Gurn? Has this any importance at all? :)

Recently, I listened to the first four discs of this set ("Early Symphonies"), chronologically ordered to include all the pre-Esterhazy (Eisenstadt) symphonies.

I thought those four discs include some great performances, especially because of the great violin playing, a mix between the traditional non-facist discipline of the Sttutgarters and a great concertmaster as Benjamin Hudson. Additionally, I liked the excellent balance between strings and winds.

Tempi are generally well judged, although the approach is less on the radical side than Fey's, avoiding extreme contrasts.

I hope to continue soon this exploration. :)

It's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. I really have no interest in yet another modern instrument cycle. And despite that I have only heard 1 disk from it, which was quite good, the box itself has been savaged by Haydnists elsewhere, which rather predisposed me to not care to invest in it anyway. I mean, practically speaking, Gordon, how many Haydn symphonies do I need? I have at least 3 or 4 of each one, 10 or 15 of others. Seriously, why invest $100 that can be better spent on books or something like that.

Now, if it WAS a PI version and well played, then $100 would be a bargain. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 13, 2013, 07:08:26 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2013, 06:55:44 AM
It's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. I really have no interest in yet another modern instrument cycle. And despite that I have only heard 1 disk from it, which was quite good, the box itself has been savaged by Haydnists elsewhere, which rather predisposed me to not care to invest in it anyway. I mean, practically speaking, Gordon, how many Haydn symphonies do I need? I have at least 3 or 4 of each one, 10 or 15 of others. Seriously, why invest $100 that can be better spent on books or something like that.

Now, if it WAS a PI version and well played, then $100 would be a bargain. :)

8)

Of course, but I think those arguments don't deprive me of expressing my opinion about this set, isn't it? 8)

BTW, surprisingly almost don't exist reliable reviews available online about this set, excepting some criticism about claps at the end of every symphonies, of course. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2013, 07:17:12 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on February 13, 2013, 07:08:26 AM
Of course, but I think those arguments don't deprive me of expressing my opinion about this set, isn't it? 8)

BTW, surprisingly almost don't exist reliable reviews available online about this set, excepting some criticism about claps at the end of every symphonies, of course. :)

No, of course it doesn't. I wouldn't want to do that, and the fact that I express my own opinion doesn't mean that it has any priority over yours or anyone else's. Mine is based over what I would like to have seen, not what is.

In Yahoo groups there is a Haydn list (there are others out there too in Usenet). There was a discussion of the set when it came out. Issues included skipped repeats and that sort of thing, in addition to the applause of course. Those who liked it were lukewarm. Those who didn't were lukecool... ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 13, 2013, 07:32:04 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2013, 06:55:44 AM
Seriously, why invest $100 that can be better spent on books or something like that.

8)

Can be had for about $42 (incl shipping at importcds). Still would leave you $55 or so for books. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2013, 07:38:13 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 13, 2013, 07:32:04 AM
Can be had for about $42 (incl shipping at importcds). Still would leave you $55 or so for books. :)

Point being I just don't need it. You multiple collecting guys! ::)

:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 13, 2013, 07:42:09 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2013, 07:17:12 AM
Those who liked it were lukewarm. Those who didn't were lukecool... ;)

No surprise. This set occupies an uncomfortable position in the current stage: modern instruments and a kind of pre-HIP approach à la Dorati, but less fiery than Dorati in the fast movements. So these days its objective audience is probably quite elusive. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 13, 2013, 07:45:12 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2013, 07:38:13 AM
Point being I just don't need it. You multiple collecting guys! ::)

:D

8)

Moi? Tempt you?!? :) Perish the thought! :) I just wanted you to have your facts straight. That's all! ::)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on February 13, 2013, 07:47:10 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2013, 06:55:44 AM
It's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. I really have no interest in yet another modern instrument cycle. And despite that I have only heard 1 disk from it, which was quite good, the box itself has been savaged by Haydnists elsewhere, which rather predisposed me to not care to invest in it anyway. I mean, practically speaking, Gordon, how many Haydn symphonies do I need? I have at least 3 or 4 of each one, 10 or 15 of others. Seriously, why invest $100 that can be better spent on books or something like that.

Now, if it WAS a PI version and well played, then $100 would be a bargain. :)

8)

Neal, what box set are you referring to?

I thought we were talking about Fey's series, which isn't complete and as far as I know, is nowhere near being boxed.

If it is Fey we're talking about--or at least, it's Fey I'm talking about--I held off initially because of the price point and the fact that I knew nothing about the conductor or the orchestra. I did find one CD in the local used CD store, and despite all the positive comments here at GMG about Fey's Haydn, I wasn't impressed by it: nothing wrong with it, but just another batch of Haydn symphonies played by a modern orchestra.

If I'm going to add a set of Haydn to Mount To Be Listened To, I need something more than that.

On other fronts, I saw last night on Hyperion's website that they'll be releasing a CD of three piano concertos by Papa, by the Violons du Roy assisted by Marc Andre Hamelin, in April. That's the same group that, among other things, was used Tharaud on his CD of Bach concertos on Harmonia Mundi.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2013, 07:52:59 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 13, 2013, 07:47:10 AM
Neal, what box set are you referring to?

I thought we were talking about Fey's series, which isn't complete and as far as I know, is nowhere near being boxed.

If it is Fey we're talking about--or at least, it's Fey I'm talking about--I held off initially because of the price point and the fact that I knew nothing about the conductor or the orchestra. I did find one CD in the local used CD store, and despite all the positive comments here at GMG about Fey's Haydn, I wasn't impressed by it: nothing wrong with it, but just another batch of Haydn symphonies played by a modern orchestra.

If I'm going to add a set of Haydn to Mount To Be Listened To, I need something more than that.

On other fronts, I saw last night on Hyperion's website that they'll be releasing a CD of three piano concertos by Papa, by the Violons du Roy assisted by Marc Andre Hamelin, in April. That's the same group that, among other things, was used Tharaud on his CD of Bach concertos on Harmonia Mundi.

No, not Fey, Russell Davies (?) box on Sony. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 13, 2013, 07:55:21 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2013, 07:52:59 AM
No, not Fey, Russell Davies (?) box on Sony. :)

8)

Yes - that one.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 13, 2013, 08:01:49 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2013, 07:52:59 AM
No, not Fey, Russell Davies (?) box on Sony. :)

8)

Dennis Russell Davies & the Stuttgarter Kammerorchester

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2013, 08:05:07 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on February 13, 2013, 07:42:09 AM
No surprise. This set occupies an uncomfortable position in the current stage: modern instruments and a kind of pre-HIP approach à la Dorati, but less fiery than Dorati in the fast movements. So these days its objective audience is probably quite elusive. :)

Yeah, getting hard to gather an audience for that approach nowadays with the polarization of listening habits. And if the niche is already filled by a classic set of performances (like Dorati is) then who do you go with?

Sony owns the rights to Solomons' set, possibly the finest effort in the early works on period instruments. But is languishes in the vaults while they continue to release material that duplicates what's already out there. Surely I'm to be allowed to vent a little bit at them? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2013, 08:06:35 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on February 13, 2013, 08:00:59 AM
I am on Gurn's page. I am not interested in another modern instrument cycle. I have Fischer and Dorati as well as Szell's and Bernstein's selections. I have all but two of the symphonies on PI instruments (I can't remember which ones, maybe 79 and 81), but since there is no complete box set, it requires assembling the works from various places.

Apparently it is too much to ask that there be at least one complete box set of all the symphonies on PI.

Yes, 79 & 81. Can you seriously believe that? ::)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on February 13, 2013, 08:16:42 AM

Thanks for the clarifications.

I'm in no hurry to get Davies, either. I've got Fischer, as part of Mount To Be Listened To, for one thing....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 13, 2013, 08:24:01 AM

Quote from: Brian on February 13, 2013, 06:38:22 AM
Yes.

...and, slightly no.

There is a 15-minute preview that will allow you to sample a few things. Which I've done, that's enough time to get in a few movements. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 13, 2013, 08:25:25 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on February 13, 2013, 08:00:59 AM
I am on Gurn's page. I am not interested in another modern instrument cycle. I have Fischer and Dorati as well as Szell's and Bernstein's selections. I have all but two of the symphonies on PI instruments (I can't remember which ones, maybe 79 and 81), but since there is no complete box set, it requires assembling the works from various places.

Apparently it is too much to ask that there be at least one complete box set of all the symphonies on PI.

Just to be clear: I'm basically a fan of PI performances, but I'm also a sort of completist, so I have the complete Hogwood recordings (the original individual sets), all Goodman, all Pinnock, all Kuijken, all Harnoncourt, all Weil, some Salomons and Norrington's Londons. But I also have the entire Dorati, all Naxos discs, the Brilliant set, D.R. Davies, Harnoncourt, Bernstein and several single discs by different directors and orchestras playing on modern instruments.

That said, I think:

- Our habits as buyers o collectors are one thing: I just need one complete set (period o modern instruments, it's the same); or I don't need a complete set, just single recordings; or I just need PI recordings; or... I mean there is not a "side" on this issue, just personal habits or desires or whatever. There is not any rationality about this point, just personal preferences.

- On the other side, commenting merits o faults of a particular recording or a group of them is a different exercise and it shouldn't be seen as a sort of advertising of them. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 13, 2013, 08:32:07 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 13, 2013, 07:47:10 AM
about Fey's Haydn, I wasn't impressed by it: nothing wrong with it, but just another batch of Haydn symphonies played by a modern orchestra.

I don't know which CD you heard that invoked such a meh response! It surprises me. Fey's interpretations are unusual, unique: brilliant, intense, fiery, even, at times, over the top. Fey and band polarize opinion. Love 'em or hate 'em seems to be the case here. They aren't a modern instrument orchestra, by the way, but rather a hybrid: modern strings and woodwinds, period brass.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2013, 09:04:14 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 13, 2013, 08:32:07 AM
I don't know which CD you heard that invoked such a meh response! It surprises me. Fey's interpretations are unusual, unique: brilliant, intense, fiery, even, at times, over the top. Fey and band polarize opinion. Love 'em or hate 'em seems to be the case here. They aren't a modern instrument orchestra, by the way, but rather a hybrid: modern strings and woodwinds, period brass.

Sarge

I have to say, I liked Fey, the first 5 disks that I have anyway, are pretty much ass-kicking. I am just hoping that I will be able to grab off a box of them one day, I really hate pursuing long series of single disks. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 13, 2013, 09:06:34 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 13, 2013, 08:32:07 AM
I don't know which CD you heard that invoked such a meh response! It surprises me.

Not to pile on, Jeffrey, but, erm: me, too.

Separately (I think) . . . as few complete symphony sets as there are for Haydn (in a world with 82,131 complete LvB symphony sets, and counting), one applauds Dennis Russell Davies for completing [even] an MI set.

It's not really practical (I fear) to take the apparently equable "couldn't we have one complete PI set per complete MI set? Or even one complete PI set per two complete MI sets?" view. The (historical) Doráti set and the Dennis Russell Davies set are both with established orchestras who have a sphere of activities larger than (even) a complete Haydn symphony set. Where a PI outfit is, almost by definition, an ad hoc organization, which may not possess an existence apart from the director.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 13, 2013, 09:07:34 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on February 13, 2013, 08:29:04 AM
Maybe not, and I take your point(s) - but to see praise heaped on yet another MI complete set while there is yet no complete PI set, sometimes, has the effect of rubbing salt into the wound.

:)

I'd also like a complete set on period instruments, but I see it more difficult every day.

BTW, I have uploaded one movement by D.R. Davies and his gang... no offense intended: ;)

http://www.goear.com/listen/0f19cb9/symphony-37-haydn

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 13, 2013, 09:08:13 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2013, 09:04:14 AM
I have to say, I liked Fey, the first 5 disks that I have anyway, are pretty much ass-kicking. I am just hoping that I will be able to grab off a box of them one day, I really hate pursuing long series of single disks. :)

8)

Aye; I very much enjoy the 3-4 singletons I've reeled in, but . . . in optimism, I shall wait out a box at the last.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on February 13, 2013, 09:46:52 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 13, 2013, 09:06:34 AM
It's not really practical (I fear) to take the apparently equable “couldn't we have one complete PI set per complete MI set? Or even one complete PI set per two complete MI sets?” view. The (historical) Doráti set and the Dennis Russell Davies set are both with established orchestras who have a sphere of activities larger than (even) a complete Haydn symphony set. Where a PI outfit is, almost by definition, an ad hoc organization, which may not possess an existence apart from the director.

A determined man and his musical team (orchestra, chorus, singers and recording engineers) managed to perform and record more Bach cantatas, nearly double the number of Haydn symphonies in a single year -- and this included long-distance travel. I can't see why an equally determined conductor cannot accomplish something similar with Haydn's symphonies in, say, even over a 10-year period, without having to face the various sources of pressure and constraint (live performance, keeping up with the liturgical calendar, the logistics of transport and travel etc.) that Gardiner did. Maybe there are more funds available for Bach than for Haydn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 13, 2013, 09:50:02 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on February 13, 2013, 09:46:52 AM
. . . Maybe there are more funds available for Bach than for Haydn.

Probably true.

Mind you, dear chap, I suggested impracticality, not impossibility.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on February 13, 2013, 09:56:38 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 13, 2013, 09:50:02 AM
Mind you, dear chap, I suggested impracticality, not impossibility.

And all I'm trying to say is, it probably isn't even that bad, given your comment about a PI band.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on February 13, 2013, 01:40:15 PM

Just to chime in briefly -

1. I'm very glad to see the Haydn Blog stickied. :)

2. I've only heard perhaps six symphonies from Fey's cycle, on NML, but they have all been precisely to my taste. I really ought to be listening to all of them!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 13, 2013, 08:22:32 PM

Unleashing Symphony No. 2 (37). Only about 10 minutes here, but a delightful opening. The second movement sounds barely symphonic. Kind of a "cooling" feel to it. Reminds me almost of a soundtrack cue or the second movement of Tchaikovsky's Serenade for Strings at points. The third brings it back, but not with a kick. These last two movements definitely have a gentle "rollingness" about them that I am enjoying.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mahler10th on February 14, 2013, 04:13:58 AM

I am listening to his Symphony 28 again. It's first movement is a real delicacy, light yet thoughtful. Even so, it is telling a new, unheard story in the realms of symphonic works. There is so much more to Haydn than meets the ear. The first movement is a quiet, open dialogue, and it invites us to very much take part. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 14, 2013, 04:17:56 AM

Quote from: Bogey on February 13, 2013, 08:22:32 PM
Unleashing Symphony No. 2 (37). Only about 10 minutes here, but a delightful opening. The second movement sounds barely symphonic. Kind of a "cooling" feel to it. Reminds me almost of a soundtrack cue or the second movement of Tchaikovsky's Serenade for Strings at points. The third brings it back, but not with a kick. These last two movements definitely have a gentle "rollingness" about them that I am enjoying.

Quote from: Scots John on February 14, 2013, 04:13:58 AM
I am listening to his Symphony 28 again. It's first movement is a real delicacy, light yet thoughtful. Even so, it is telling a new, unheard story in the realms of symphonic works. There is so much more to Haydn than meets the ear. The first movement is a quiet, open dialogue, and it invites us to very much take part. 8)

I'm so delighted to see you guys listening to things you maybe hadn't before and enjoying them. Sometimes the sheer quantity of works blocks out the individual merit of any particular one (I know, it happens to me!). But to take the time to listen is very rewarding. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 14, 2013, 05:02:05 AM

Quote from: Bogey on February 13, 2013, 08:22:32 PM
Unleashing Symphony No. 2 (37). Only about 10 minutes here, but a delightful opening. The second movement sounds barely symphonic. Kind of a "cooling" feel to it. Reminds me almost of a soundtrack cue or the second movement of Tchaikovsky's Serenade for Strings at points. The third brings it back, but not with a kick. These last two movements definitely have a gentle "rollingness" about them that I am enjoying.

Nice description, Bogey. Coincidentally, yesterday I posted a link of the first movement of this symphony. I think it could be suitable to your taste.

Talking about movements sounding "barely symphonic", few days ago I had a good time listening to the beautiful second movement (Adagio Cantabile) of Symphony No. 13, which really seems a movement for a cello concerto. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on February 14, 2013, 05:04:56 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on February 14, 2013, 05:02:05 AM
Talking about movements sounding "barely symphonic", few days ago I had a good time listening to the beautiful second movement (Adagio Cantabile) of Symphony No. 13, which really seems a movement for a cello concerto. :)

I always feel something similar with early (middle?) Classical symphonies: once the orchestra has played the main theme, involuntarily I expect the entrance of a non-existent soloist.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 14, 2013, 05:07:34 AM

Quote from: Scots John on February 14, 2013, 04:13:58 AM
I am listening to his Symphony 28 again. It's first movement is a real delicacy, light yet thoughtful. Even so, it is telling a new, unheard story in the realms of symphonic works. There is so much more to Haydn than meets the ear. The first movement is a quiet, open dialogue, and it invites us to very much take part. 8)

This description - like the previous one - is an invitation to a new listening. Thanks. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 14, 2013, 05:16:38 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on February 14, 2013, 05:04:56 AM
I always feel something similar with early (middle?) Classical symphonies: once the orchestra has played the main theme, involuntarily I expect the entrance of a non-existent soloist.

Yes! Totally true. However, after Beethoven and perhaps after his Third Symphony, if you want, that imaginary soloist wasn't possible anymore.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 14, 2013, 05:30:39 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on February 14, 2013, 05:04:56 AM
I always feel something similar with early (middle?) Classical symphonies: once the orchestra has played the main theme, involuntarily I expect the entrance of a non-existent soloist.

Further proof, if any is needed, that the German Classical symphony arose from the concerto grosso rather than the Italian sinfonia. It may be counter-intuitive, but although the debate has gone on for years, I think that this feeling on listening speaks louder than the written word. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on February 14, 2013, 05:37:36 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 14, 2013, 05:30:39 AM
Further proof, if any is needed, that the German Classical symphony arose from the concerto grosso rather than the Italian sinfonia. It may be counter-intuitive, but although the debate has gone on for years, I think that this feeling on listening speaks louder than the written word. :)

8)

Well, that settles it, then.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 14, 2013, 05:43:37 AM

Nav settles it!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 14, 2013, 05:49:06 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 14, 2013, 05:30:39 AM
Further proof, if any is needed, that the German Classical symphony arose from the concerto grosso rather than the Italian sinfonia. It may be counter-intuitive, but although the debate has gone on for years, I think that this feeling on listening speaks louder than the written word. :)

8)

Yes, but only at a very slight extent, IMO, because the soloist as a figure "opposed" to the orchestra, playing "against" the orchestral mass, it's not a Baroque notion, but a Romantic idea. That's the reason why I think this thought works better out in retrospective terms: from Beethoven towards back. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 14, 2013, 05:57:20 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on February 14, 2013, 05:49:06 AM
Yes, but only at a very slight extent, IMO, because the soloist as a figure "opposed" to the orchestra, playing "against" the orchestral mass, it's not a Baroque notion, but a Romantic idea.

Seek the truth, and resist easy revisionism. The "opposition" is part of the term concerto, and has always been part of the genre.

There may well be ideas which accreted at the time of the Romantics, but . . . the "struggle" aspect was there, at the egg.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 14, 2013, 06:12:27 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 14, 2013, 05:57:20 AM
Seek the truth, and resist easy revisionism. The "opposition" is part of the term concerto, and has always been part of the genre.

There may well be ideas which accreted at the time of the Romantics, but . . . the "struggle" aspect was there, at the egg.

Sorry if this hurts your received ideas, but although it's not evident, I have dedicated some time to think about this.

I have even quoted on this board this revelatory passage written by Sigiswald Kuijken - precisely on Haydn's cello concerto - regarding this new relationship (from the end of late Classicism onwards) between soloist and orchestra:

QuoteAll this results in a quite different effect from what we have been used to up to now in these concertos: the 19th (and 20th) century concerto tradition with its (nearly) always inherent aspect of 'heroism' (the individual artist against the background of a mighty orchestra, a kind of David and Goliath principle) is abandoned altogether here, and we are confronted with a much more gentle and intimate 'conversation' between the soloist and his colleagues - or with a discretely and efficiently supported 'monologue' spoken by the main actor. I am convinced that this solution is far more in keeping with the spirit of Haydn's music and indeed with the musical practice of his time as a whole."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 14, 2013, 06:21:19 AM

Quote"All this results in a quite different effect from what we have been used to up to now in these concertos: the 19th (and 20th) century concerto tradition with its (nearly) always inherent aspect of 'heroism' (the individual artist against the background of a mighty orchestra, a kind of David and Goliath principle) is abandoned altogether here, and we are confronted with a much more gentle and intimate 'conversation' between the soloist and his colleagues - or with a discretely and efficiently supported 'monologue' spoken by the main actor. I am convinced that this solution is far more in keeping with the spirit of Haydn's music and indeed with the musical practice of his time as a whole."

I have long been convinced of the same thing. Glad I'm in good company! Didn't we have this discussion when discussing the first cello concerto, where Bylsma & Co play it as a solo concerto and Suzuki et al play it more as a chamber work? I ended up going with Suzuki for #1 and Bylsma for #2 (from the 1780's) for that reason.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 14, 2013, 06:28:08 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 14, 2013, 06:21:19 AM
I have long been convinced of the same thing. Glad I'm in good company! Didn't we have this discussion when discussing the first cello concerto, where Bylsma & Co play it as a solo concerto and Suzuki et al play it more as a chamber work? I ended up going with Suzuki for #1 and Bylsma for #2 (from the 1780's) for that reason.

8)

It's probable. Although it's not always too much clear :P, we still think quite in the same way on essential matters of performance. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 14, 2013, 07:30:41 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on February 14, 2013, 06:12:27 AM
Sorry if this hurts your received ideas, but although it's not evident, I have dedicated some time to think about this.

Naturally; you've dedicated some time to think about this. Unlike myself, you tidily imply.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 14, 2013, 08:21:50 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 14, 2013, 07:30:41 AM
Naturally; you've dedicated some time to think about this. Unlike myself, you tidily imply.

Do I need to recall your previous: "Seek the truth, and resist easy revisionism"?

Maybe it's just my literal reading of a foreign language, but I did read your message like a quite (unnecessarily) hostile statement. So my reference to "acquired" or "received ideas" should be considered just as a merely defensive rhetorical device. ;) :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 14, 2013, 09:08:45 AM

Quote from: Eugene K. WolfConcerto [fr. Italian concertare, to join together; pres. part. concertante, past part. concertato; related to Lat. concertare, to fight or contend]. (1) In the 16th through the early 18th centuries, a diverse ensemble of voices, instruments, or both, or a composition for such an ensemble. This ussge is derived from the original Italian meaning of concertare and its derivatives, "to join together" or "unite," a meaning present in English in such phrases as "to work in concert" and "concerted effort." The performers "joined together" in an early concerto are usually heterogeneous in some sense: soloists and chorus, two separate choruses, different instruments, or (most commonly of all) voices and instruments. In the course of the 17th century, the term concerto took on the additional Latin meaning of "fighting" or "contending," referring to the opposition between soloist(s) and orchestra of the modern concerto [see (2), below]. Which of the meanings of concerto and its derivatives was intended in a particular instance can often be determined only from the context.

[...]

(2) From the latter part of the 17th century to the present, a multi-movement (occasionally multi-sectional) work for soloist or soloists and orchestra [...]

[ later, from the same article ]

Quote from: Eugene K. WolfMozart's 23 original piano concertos — 17 from his Viennese period — represent the crowning achievement of the 18th-century concerto. Most of the works written for Vienna are of a type tat himself called "grand concertos"; these were intended for performance at his own subscription concerts, which were held in sizable halls. They thus call for an orchestra that is much larger and more diverse than that of the typical chamber concerto, especially in the expanded role assigned to the winds — an orchestra fully capable of sustaining a dramatic confrontation with the virtuosity and individuality of the soloist. In the same way, Mozart's approach in these concertos is often clearly symphonic, not only in the adorementioned application of formal principles associated with the symphony, but also in an almost Haydnesque interest in thematic derivation and unity in the later concertos. Finally, the range and style and expression is incomparably greater than that of most other concertos of the period, extending from the comic-opera elements of K. 467 to the Italianate lyricism of K. 488, the tragic character of K. 466 and 491, and the Beethovenian heroism of K.503. Haydn's concertos, with the exception of the Piano Concerto in D, the Cello Concerto in D (once attributed to Anton Kraft), and the Trumpet Concerto, are generally early and conventional.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 14, 2013, 09:17:08 AM

Part of my point with this fundamental reminder is:

1. In the genre of the concerto, it is not a simplistic matter of either "joining together" or "contending." Both elements are on display in examples of the genre from the outset. It is, after all, a Baroque genre, and the Baroque also saw the birth of the dramatic genre of opera.

2. While it is generally an error to "write off" dramatic opposition as a principle within the concerto as the Heroic Style generally associated with Beethoven, note Wolf's reference to Beethoven w/r/t the K. 503.

3. This thread is Haydn's place, and here's to it. It is worth reflecting that developing a sympathy with the environment and proper practice of Haydn's music should not be misapplied as a Procrustean bed, more broadly.

And now . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 14, 2013, 09:43:59 AM

This being da Haus, I must almost apologize for the slap embedded in the opening sentence here . . . but Rosen more than makes up for it in his appreciation for "Papa's" affective powers.

Quote from: Chas RosenMozart's most signal triumphs took place where Haydn failed: in the dramatic forms of the opera and the concerto, which pit the individual voice against the sonority of the mass. At first glance, the disparity of achievement may seem inexplicable. The surface of Haydn's music is, if anything, more, not less, dramatic than Mozart's. It is the elder composer who is inclined to the coup de théâtre, the surprise modulation, the sudden farcical deflation of pomposity, the scandalously excessive dynamic accent. It may even be argued that Mozart's melodies are not only more conventional than Haydn's, but in general less 'characteristic,' less imediately descriptive of a specific sentiment or action. Mozart's musical references rarely descend to the particularity of Haydn's tone-painting and sentiment-painting in his two great oratorios. The 'characteristic' moments that we find throughout Haydn's symphonies differ from the tone-painting in the Seasons only in their lack of explicit reference, and they are no less marked and individual. The personages of an opera by Mozart live with a presence never found in Haydn's operatic work, but their music is neither more dramatic nor more 'expressive.' And while Mozart's psychological penetration may seem to give a satisfying explanation of his success in opera, it cannot account for his equal success in the closely related form of the concerto.

Mozart's early career as an international virtuoso performing concertos and his first-hand acquaintance with opera in all the capitals of Europe are experiences that Haydn missed. Nevertheless, Haydn's knowledge of opera should not be underestimated, and his interest in spectacular instrumental virtuosity in some ways surpassed Mozart's. Haydn was neither indifferent to virtuosity nor unable to handle it, and his relative insecurity with concerto form must have other roots. How evident this is may be seen by comparing the tame display of his last piano concerto, a good but unremarkable work, with the extravagant virtuosity of his piano trios and late sonatas, and the surprisingly complex demands he made upon the solo orchestral players in the symphonies, both early and late. Haydn's interest in virtuosity evidently flowered best in chamber music and in the symphony. The reasons for Mozart's superiority to Haydn in opera and concerto are more specifically musical than wider experience, or a taste for viruosity and dramatic expression: they must be sought both in his handling of long-range movement and in the direct physical impact of his music.

From The Classical Style: Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, p.185.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 14, 2013, 09:54:51 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 14, 2013, 09:43:59 AM
This being da Haus, I must almost apologize for the slap embedded in the opening sentence here . . . but Rosen more than makes up for it in his appreciation for "Papa's" affective powers.

From The Classical Style: Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, p.185.

I do feel, and always have, that the form simply had little appeal for Haydn, for whatever reason. In his early career, the Baroque style of it was still predominant. Witness his organ concertos for a logical extension of Baroque into early Classical/Galant. However, I really don't think that he felt any compelling need to be the pioneer here in leading the concerto out of the Baroque. I have no doubt that he could have done, just as he did with so many other forms. But I see no indication that the Prince had any interest in concertos, even the choice ones he wrote early times for Tomasini et al. Thus he didn't repeat the process to any degree. The 'modern' form of the concerto, pitting soloist against orchestra with various forms of sonata style and all the accoutrements was Mozart. He had the talent, but more importantly, he stood to gain something from it, which Haydn did not. I feel that this is the fabled straw that broke the concertos back.

Just my opinion, of course, but at least partly provoked by the above paragraph several years ago. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 14, 2013, 10:04:50 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 14, 2013, 09:54:51 AM
I do feel, and always have, that the form simply had little appeal for Haydn, for whatever reason. In his early career, the Baroque style of it was still predominant. Witness his organ concertos for a logical extension of Baroque into early Classical/Galant. However, I really don't think that he felt any compelling need to be the pioneer here in leading the concerto out of the Baroque. I have no doubt that he could have done, just as he did with so many other forms. But I see no indication that the Prince had any interest in concertos, even the choice ones he wrote early times for Tomasini et al. Thus he didn't repeat the process to any degree. The 'modern' form of the concerto, pitting soloist against orchestra with various forms of sonata style and all the accoutrements was Mozart. He had the talent, but more importantly, he stood to gain something from it, which Haydn did not. I feel that this is the fabled straw that broke the concertos back.

Just my opinion, of course, but at least partly provoked by the above paragraph several years ago. :)

8)

I think you're perfectly right here, Gurn. Rosen is quite rough on “Papa” with the verb failed. Clearly they are genres in which “Wolferl” was superior, and (at the least in the matter of opera) “Papa” with characteristic sobriety was happy to acknowledge that. (I don't mean to imply that things were otherwise with the concerto . . . I just think of a specific remark of “Papa's” in which he pointed out “Wolferl's” great success in comic opera.)

Anyway, now that I have at least a surface familiarity with the Haydn quartets, I can now read more of the Rosen with sharper intelligence : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 14, 2013, 12:15:04 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 14, 2013, 10:04:50 AM
I think you're perfectly right here, Gurn. Rosen is quite rough on "Papa" with the verb failed. Clearly they are genres in which "Wolferl" was superior, and (at the least in the matter of opera) "Papa" with characteristic sobriety was happy to acknowledge that. (I don't mean to imply that things were otherwise with the concerto . . . I just think of a specific remark of "Papa's" in which he pointed out "Wolferl's" great success in comic opera.)

Anyway, now that I have at least a surface familiarity with the Haydn quartets, I can now read more of the Rosen with sharper intelligence : )

It would be unfortunate to read Rosen and not realize that he has an agenda too. Not that I could say exactly what it is, but he frequently is like a handler at the terrier show who feels compelled to face-off his contenders. As for Haydn's remark about Mozart, there are also several of Mozart's remarks about Haydn, equally complimentary. It was mutual respect and friendship at all times. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 14, 2013, 05:13:15 PM

Early Symphonies:

Shephard, Doráti, Gallois or Goodman? Preference? Would Hogwood trump them all?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 14, 2013, 06:04:30 PM

Quote from: Bogey on February 14, 2013, 05:13:15 PM
Early Symphonies:

Shephard, Doráti, Gallois or Goodman? Preference? Would Hogwood trump them all?

Goodman for me. Excellent series, actually. I feel as badly about its termination as I do about Hogwood's. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 14, 2013, 07:09:04 PM

Thanks, Gurn. I twas leaning that way for something different.

Just finished up Symphony 3 (18).

Started pretty much Haydnish. However, the second movement had a sauntering about it that drew me in. The third movement I was hoping for more bass or depth, but instead got that "classical" third movement. It smacked a bit of his "Clock" symphony, but maybe there are many that do for the third movement. I did not note the time on the final movement before listening and was not prepared for a two minute drill. Was this common?

Also, I am beginning to note a layering to Fischer's recordings. By this I mean that instruments seemed to be miked in such a way that some have a more distant sound....like they are next door at points. I like this effect and wonder if others use it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 14, 2013, 07:15:28 PM

Just ordered:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61GBWs7IKRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 14, 2013, 07:39:23 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 14, 2013, 09:54:51 AM
But I see no indication that the Prince had any interest in concertos,

And that is all we really need to know to be accurate with our inferences. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on February 14, 2013, 08:29:38 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 13, 2013, 08:32:07 AM
I don't know which CD you heard that invoked such a meh response! It surprises me. Fey's interpretations are unusual, unique: brilliant, intense, fiery, even, at times, over the top. Fey and band polarize opinion. Love 'em or hate 'em seems to be the case here. They aren't a modern instrument orchestra, by the way, but rather a hybrid: modern strings and woodwinds, period brass.

Sarge

Okay, you guys made me go dig it out.

Volume 8: Nos. 31, 44 and 47

I promise to give it a second chance soon, on the premise that perhaps I was having what I call a 'bad ear' day.

But me being "meh" about it shouldn't be read as saying something negative about it. It simply didn't impress me enough to want more from this conductor and orchestra. Had I fewer recordings of Haydn's symphonies--including the Fischer cycle--and were I not more interested in PI than MI performances, I would be more enthusiastic.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 15, 2013, 04:26:51 AM

Quote from: Bogey on February 14, 2013, 07:09:04 PM
Thanks, Gurn. I twas leaning that way for something different.

Just finished up Symphony 3 (18).

Started pretty much Haydnish. However, the second movement had a sauntering about it that drew me in. The third movement I was hoping for more bass or depth, but instead got that "classical" third movement. It smacked a bit of his "Clock" symphony, but maybe there are many that do for the third movement. I did not note the time on the final movement before listening and was not prepared for a two minute drill. Was this common?

Also, I am beginning to note a layering to Fischer's recordings. By this I mean that instruments seemed to be miked in such a way that some have a more distant sound....like they are next door at points. I like this effect and wonder if others use it.

Yes, it was very common. There was little or no emphasis placed on the final movement at that time. All the weight was on the first movement. This was one of the big accomplishments that both Haydn and Mozart contributed was shifting the emphasis away from the first movement and giving some balance to the whole. Not just true of symphonies, if you'll note...

Quote from: Bogey on February 14, 2013, 07:15:28 PM
Just ordered:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61GBWs7IKRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

You'll like it, I'm confident. Nice disk. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 15, 2013, 04:50:50 AM

Quote from: Bogey on February 14, 2013, 07:15:28 PM
Just ordered:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61GBWs7IKRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Just fyi - perhaps more for those in the US, Berkshire has 16 of the Haydn Goodman discs available (for 4.99+shipping), including 1-21 (over 5 discs).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 15, 2013, 04:57:15 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 13, 2013, 08:32:07 AM
I don't know which CD you heard that invoked such a meh response! It surprises me. Fey's interpretations are unusual, unique: brilliant, intense, fiery, even, at times, over the top. Fey and band polarize opinion. Love 'em or hate 'em seems to be the case here. They aren't a modern instrument orchestra, by the way, but rather a hybrid: modern strings and woodwinds, period brass.

Sarge

Yes, they are a sort of Giardino Armonico playing Classical repertory, on modern instruments, or hybrid instrumentarium, if you prefer.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 15, 2013, 05:03:56 AM

Quote from: Bogey on February 14, 2013, 07:15:28 PM
Just ordered:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61GBWs7IKRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

If you don't succumb to "collectionism" (regarding Goodman, I mean), this would be the path to follow:

[asin]B00005V21E[/asin]

or

[asin]B0002JNR1I[/asin]

or

[asin]B000000SCU[/asin]

or

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4015023242722.jpg)

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 15, 2013, 05:12:58 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on February 15, 2013, 05:03:56 AM
If you don't succumb to "collectionism" (regarding Goodman, I mean), this would be the path to follow:

[asin]B00005V21E[/asin]

or

[asin]B0002JNR1I[/asin]

Both very nice choices. I would recommend the Haselböck, but the Freiburg is nipping its heels...

Quote
(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4015023242722.jpg)

The only PI version that I lack, I think. Somehow managed to overlook it until very recently. Remedied soon... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 15, 2013, 05:26:15 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 15, 2013, 05:12:58 AM
Both very nice choices. I would recommend the Haselböck, but the Freiburg is nipping its heels...

The only PI version that I lack, I think. Somehow managed to overlook it until very recently. Remedied soon... :)

8)

Yes, both versions are fantastic. I slightly prefer the Freiburgers, probably because their version is better articulated in a Baroque way.

Regarding Kuijken: it's a recent disc. It was recorded on January, 2012.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 15, 2013, 05:38:39 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on February 15, 2013, 05:03:56 AM
If you don't succumb to "collectionism" (regarding Goodman, I mean), this would be the path to follow:

:)

Excellent idea. Kind of how I casually collect the Bach cantatas....that is, a bit from here and a bit from there. My other consideration was forming a subset of symphonies 1-5 on my shelf. Or, a bunch of number 2's and 3's. I need to give 4 and 5 a roll today from Fischer. No. 1 was fine, but the Fischer would have been enough. (However, I am fearful of the how many versions of certain pieces I will want once I hit his chamber music. ;D)

I will also check out Berkshire and of course as some of you here know.the used lp sections of stores in town.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 15, 2013, 05:59:36 AM

If you have access to really obscure and totally OOP CD's, you will be able to discover that L'Estro Armonico / Solomons also made a set called "The Morzin Symphonies", which I have some recordings that a friend made from his LP's, but I can't recommend them, no matter their wonderful quality, since I have taken a solemn vow to not recommend things that no one can find anywhere so you don't hunt me down and put a stake through my heart....

More info please. :)

(Says to self: Amazing what happens when you read what has already been provided and just not look at the pretty cd covers.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 15, 2013, 06:06:22 AM

Quote from: Bogey on February 15, 2013, 05:59:36 AM
If you have access to really obscure and totally OOP CD's, you will be able to discover that L'Estro Armonico / Solomons also made a set called "The Morzin Symphonies", which I have some recordings that a friend made from his LP's, but I can't recommend them, no matter their wonderful quality, since I have taken a solemn vow to not recommend things that no one can find anywhere so you don't hunt me down and put a stake through my heart....

More info please. :)

(Says to self: Amazing what happens when you read what has already been provided and just not look at the pretty cd covers.)

I likely have the same friend. And the same rationale for not recommending them. None of my recommendations in the Haus have been for disks that can't be had, no matter my level of enjoyment. I think that's just mean. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on February 15, 2013, 06:12:11 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 15, 2013, 06:06:22 AM
I likely have the same friend. And the same rationale for not recommending them.

8)

Both of them were/are yours. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 15, 2013, 06:31:17 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 15, 2013, 06:06:22 AM
I likely have the same friend. And the same rationale for not recommending them. None of my recommendations in the Haus have been for disks that can't be had, no matter my level of enjoyment. I think that's just mean. :)

8)

No. No. I just want to know what they are. If I am interested after that, then vinyl is available! 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 15, 2013, 06:45:27 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on February 15, 2013, 06:12:11 AM
Both of them were/are yours. ;D

How dare he quote me unattributed like that! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 15, 2013, 06:47:41 AM

Quote from: Bogey on February 15, 2013, 06:31:17 AM
No. No. I just want to know what they are. If I am interested after that, then vinyl is available! 8)

You're right, vinyl IS available. I just saw them last week on eBay. I don't do vinyl though, so it doesn't help me. I have Volume 7 & Volume 9 on CD, and so can anyone else have, and so I rec those wholeheartedly. Sony can meanwhile bite my arse. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 15, 2013, 06:48:34 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 15, 2013, 06:47:41 AM
You're right, vinyl IS available. I just saw them last week on eBay. I don't do vinyl though, so it doesn't help me. I have Volume 7 & Volume 9 on CD, and so can anyone else have, and so I rec those wholeheartedly. Sony can meanwhile bite my arse. 0:)

8)

Yes, but what are they? Why are they called Solomon?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 15, 2013, 07:01:14 AM

Quote from: Bogey on February 15, 2013, 06:48:34 AM
Yes, but what are they? Why are they called Solomon?

L'Estro Armonico / Derek Solomons. A long established band. The original recordings are for CBS Records, which if course Sony ended up with their catalog in the buyout. They were all originally recorded on vinyl, now they can be had (but rarely) as 3 CD's with 2 symphonies each in a box. They went all the way from #1 to ~#65. I don't know a lot more than that because they are rare. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on February 15, 2013, 10:24:29 AM

There used to be transfers of 1,37, 18, 2, 15, 4 and 10 on the web -- that's all I've heard of Solomons. Try searching rmcr.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 15, 2013, 10:55:41 AM

Just spent the morning in the car with symphonies 4 (2) and 5 (4).

Symphony 4:

I like the "outburst" like feel of the first movement. This paired with the silent periods (3:06 and 4:57) followed by a charge of music was the highlight. My only problem with this composition was that the finale was a menuetto. Made it feel like the last chapter of a who-dunnit mystery was missing. Was this purposeful? Was it lost? Was it ripped up by a patron or Haydn himself? Pappa needs a decent conspiracy theory like Mozart (death of) and Beethoven (Immortal Beloved), so I say we start here!

Symphony 5

What was striking here is the opening movement with an adagio. Kind of cool, but took a second to fall into it. In fact, the second movement almost seemed like it would work better ahead of the first. Sommeone number the compositions incorrectly?

In short, if anyone points out that Haydn's early symphonies all sound the same, they are greatly mistaken. The first five show this clearly.

Hey Gurn (and others in the know), any audience reactions to these earlier symphonies exist?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 15, 2013, 11:38:08 AM

Quote from: Bogey on February 15, 2013, 10:55:41 AM
Just spent the morning in the car with symphonies 4 (2) and 5 (4).

Symphony 4:

I like the "outburst" like feel of the first movement. This paired with the silent periods (3:06 and 4:57) followed by a charge of music was the highlight. My only problem with this composition was that the finale was a menuetto. Made it feel like the last chapter of a who-dunnit mystery was missing. Was this purposeful? Was it lost? Was it ripped up by a patron or Haydn himself? Pappa needs a decent conspiracy theory like Mozart (death of) and Beethoven (Immortal Beloved), so I say we start here!

Symphony 5

What was striking here is the opening movement with an adagio. Kind of cool, but took a second to fall into it. In fact, the second movement almost seemed like it would work better ahead of the first. Sommeone number the compositions incorrectly?

In short, if anyone points out that Haydn's early symphonies all sound the same, they are greatly mistaken. The first five show this clearly.

Hey Gurn (and others in the know), any audience reactions to these earlier symphonies exist?

Bill,
Don't have time to answer all this right now, however, just 2 quick replies;

Ending with a minuet was routine in the 1750's. Not so much with symphonies, but since there were very few standards to apply, it happened. If you look at some of the early keyboard sonatas and trios you will see a high proportion that end with a minuet.

Adagio first movement: this form is called Sonata da Chiesa, or in English, a Church symphony. It is a holdover from late Baroque, and Haydn wrote a lot of them until the 1770's. Listen to #49 in particular, it is a splendid example!

Back to work..... :(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 15, 2013, 11:42:32 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 15, 2013, 11:38:08 AM
Bill,
Don't have time to answer all this right now, however, just 2 quick replies;

Ending with a minuet was routine in the 1750's. Not so much with symphonies, but since there were very few standards to apply, it happened. If you look at some of the early keyboard sonatas and trios you will see a high proportion that end with a minuet.

Adagio first movement: this form is called Sonata da Chiesa, or in English, a Church symphony. It is a holdover from late Baroque, and Haydn wrote a lot of them until the 1770's. Listen to #49 in particular, it is a splendid example!

Back to work..... :(

8)

I will keep track of my impressions of the symphonies as I roll through them and attach this note to #49. When I hit it, I will relisten to both. Thanks! The audience is just a curiosity. Let me know what you have when you can including any remarks from Haydn himself. Lots of fun here thanks to your efforts.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 15, 2013, 05:02:20 PM

Gurn - regarding your blog post of the symphonies, did Haydn sometimes put things aside and then take them up later? I would imagine this could really throw a wrench in the works (of ordering them I mean), though not much can be done I suppose. I was just curious, because unless we know for sure when he was working on them (and I assume some of this can be deduced from various sources from the time), there is always some ebb and flow to this type of exercise. And with so many works, it's easy to imagine him starting on something (from an outline in his head to sketching a few ideas), putting it aside (for whatever reason) and then taking it back up at some future date.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 15, 2013, 05:34:37 PM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 15, 2013, 05:02:20 PM
Gurn - regarding your blog post of the symphonies, did Haydn sometimes put things aside and then take them up later? I would imagine this could really throw a wrench in the works (of ordering them I mean), though not much can be done I suppose. I was just curious, because unless we know for sure when he was working on them (and I assume some of this can be deduced from various sources from the time), there is always some ebb and flow to this type of exercise. And with so many works, it's easy to imagine him starting on something (from an outline in his head to sketching a few ideas), putting it aside (for whatever reason) and then taking it back up at some future date.

Hi, Neal,
Well, I have never read a single item that would indicate that Haydn did this. It was the heart of Mozart's work ethic, and more famously, of Beethoven's. Almost no 'sketches' exist of Haydn's, and then, it is late works like The Creation where a few exist. Either he didn't sketch outside his head, or he made a point of not keeping them. I really do believe (without documentation, of course) that his style of composing was such that he sat down and did it from beginning to end (there are scratchouts and changes in autographs, of course, but that isn't the same thing, is it?).

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on February 15, 2013, 08:36:44 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 15, 2013, 07:01:14 AM
L'Estro Armonico / Derek Solomons. A long established band. The original recordings are for CBS Records, which if course Sony ended up with their catalog in the buyout. They were all originally recorded on vinyl, now they can be had (but rarely) as 3 CD's with 2 symphonies each in a box. They went all the way from #1 to ~#65. I don't know a lot more than that because they are rare. :-\

8)

Berkshire Record Outlet has a Solomans/L'Estro Armonico CD with #39, 45 and 59 for $ 4.99 right now. I highly recommend that purchase. Great sense of Sturm und Drang style with PI sound that fits the music perfectly.

Another Solomans/L'Estro Armonico CD that is sometimes available has #45 and 48. The performance of 48 has great PI sound and a very manic feeling. I'd recommend getting that CD as well even if 45 is a duplicate with the other CD.

Bill

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 15, 2013, 08:58:11 PM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 15, 2013, 05:02:20 PM
Gurn - regarding your blog post of the symphonies, did Haydn sometimes put things aside and then take them up later? I would imagine this could really throw a wrench in the works (of ordering them I mean), though not much can be done I suppose..............

Neal - I would suspect that those composers of the Baroque period into the early classical era likely composed a LOT and rapidly, but the transition into the 19th century led to fewer compositions written over a longer period and also presumably revised more - just a generality from my readings.

As an example, Susan & I saw a wonderful play yesterday based on the Diabelli Variations of LVBeethoven - as the quote below (from Wiki) states that he composed these over 4 yrs or so - the play was wonderful (and we made comments in THIS THREAD (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11099.msg697647.html#msg697647)) - if you or other GMGers have an opportunity to see it, then highly recommended!

Well, not much help relative to Papa Joe's writing habits, but having just seen this play on Beethoven stimulated me to think about the topic your questioned - Dave :)

QuoteThe 33 Variations on a waltz by Anton Diabelli, Op. 120, commonly known as the Diabelli Variations, is a set of variations for the piano written between 1819 and 1823 by Ludwig van Beethoven on a waltz composed by Anton Diabelli.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 16, 2013, 04:40:47 AM

That's why I asked. I was just musing that he might have started various commissions only to change them or stop them at some point when another commission came along or a different type of piece was needed. If this was not characteristic of him, it makes it easier at least. And since we don't give a hoot for Mozart in this thread, his way of writing is his problem! :) Thanks eveyone!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 16, 2013, 04:43:30 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 16, 2013, 04:40:47 AM
That's why I asked. I was just musing that he might have started various commissions only to change them or stop them at some point when another commission came along or a different type of piece was needed. If this was not characteristic of him, it makes it easier at least. And since we don't give a hoot for Mozart in this thread, his way of writing is his problem! :) Thanks eveyone!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 16, 2013, 07:25:14 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 16, 2013, 04:40:47 AM
That's why I asked. I was just musing that he might have started various commissions only to change them or stop them at some point when another commission came along or a different type of piece was needed.

Well, but it is was not as if "Papa" had been a free agent in The Marketplace, where there might have arisen 'conflicting commissions': he was a servant at Esterháza, where the Prince headed a fairly orderly household.

And, call me a contrarian, but even here in da Haus, I give perhaps half a hoot for Mozart and his methods ; )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 16, 2013, 07:26:11 AM

Quote from: Old Listener on February 15, 2013, 08:36:44 PM
Berkshire Record Outlet has a Solomans/L'Estro Armonico CD with #39, 45 and 59 for $ 4.99 right now. I highly recommend that purchase. Great sense of Sturm und Drang style with PI sound that fits the music perfectly.

Another Solomons/L'Estro Armonico CD that is sometimes available has #45 and 48. The performance of 48 has great PI sound and a very manic feeling. I'd recommend getting that CD as well even if 45 is a duplicate with the other CD.

Bill

Yes, each of those disks can be had reasonably, and are certainly worthwhile having. Especially the one with #48, since even if you can get Vols 7 & 9, #48 appears on neither of them, although the others all do. #48 is such a butt-kicker too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 16, 2013, 07:33:57 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 16, 2013, 04:40:47 AM
That's why I asked. I was just musing that he might have started various commissions only to change them or stop them at some point when another commission came along or a different type of piece was needed. If this was not characteristic of him, it makes it easier at least. And since we don't give a hoot for Mozart in this thread, his way of writing is his problem! :) Thanks everyone!

Quote from: karlhenning on February 16, 2013, 07:25:14 AM
Well, but it is was not as if "Papa" had been a free agent in The Marketplace, where there might have arisen 'conflicting commissions': he was a servant at Esterháza, where the Prince headed a fairly orderly household.

And, call me a contrarian, but even here in da Haus, I give perhaps half a hoot for Mozart and his methods ; )

Neal,
Of course I know you are kidding around, but I introduced Mozart because the method you described is exactly the method he used. Also, like Haydn, I love Mozart's music. Just sayin'.... :)

Karl is quite right though; Haydn didn't work by commission until quite late in his career. He had a contractual obligation to appear in uniform every day before lunch and take orders on what the Prince wanted to hear, and then go and write it, practice it, and play it on schedule. He didn't have time for 'art for art's sake'. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 16, 2013, 08:04:53 AM

Part of my reading this morning:

Quote from: Friedrich BlumeThe life of Haydn provides the model for the whole subsequent development. He was for four decades Kapellmeister to the princely house of Esterházy, rose from a duty-bound official of the household to a ranking and personally highly esteemed "Herr Kapellmeister," was in practice independent from the 1780s on, was able to travel and to make what use he wished of his works despite a standing contract with the princely house, and in his old age lived a perfectly independent life. The princes he had served had long passed from orchestra owners to Maecenases, and occasionally to friends. The result of all this Beethoven inherited; Vienna's aristocracy felt called upon – without any sort of formal commitment, save the assurance of his remaining in Vienna when he threatened to go to Kassel – to support him for life. In Haydn's last years and in Mozart's the two opposite extremes of an artist's existence, as they were to be frequently repeated in the Romantic era, are already exemplified: both lived as free artists, but the one is the world-renowned master, everywhere acknowledged and treated as a matter of course with respect, sought after by public and publisher, knowing how to preserve his economic independence as well; the other, understood only with effort and achieving his ends only with difficulty, lives in a spiritual sphere that causes him to lose his footing in the material world.

From Classic and Romantic Music: A Comprehensive Survey (translated by M.D. Herter Norton), pp. 88-89

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 16, 2013, 08:14:37 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 16, 2013, 08:04:53 AM
Part of my reading this morning:

From Classic and Romantic Music: A Comprehensive Survey (translated by M.D. Herter Norton), pp. 88-89

Very good book, Karl, full of interesting titbits. Blume is not quite clear on Haydn's independence though. He says "from the 1780's on..." it should be clarified that Haydn did NOT have the freedom to go where he wished (short of resigning, which he wouldn't do) until late 1790 after Nicholas died. He did, however, have the freedom to sell his works to outside publishers from 1780 onward, which he did with great relish and indefatigable energy. So those two things shouldn't be understood to be one thing! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 16, 2013, 08:22:00 AM

Excellent emendation, Gurn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 16, 2013, 08:49:00 AM

For fun, since the symphonies are at the forefront of the blog at this point, I want to throw this bone out:

Do you think that Papa's symphonies would have attracted more attention, or gotten more run on this board like LvB's, Brahms, or even Mahler, had he not written so many? Can you imagine if we only had nine or so? Might they be discussed more? Do you think folks look at that number and say, "Too much to chew on." With the likes of less than a dozen, their are cycles galore, but only a handful of Haydn runs.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 16, 2013, 09:44:55 AM

Quote from: Bogey on February 16, 2013, 08:49:00 AM
For fun, since the symphonies are at the forefront of the blog at this point, I want to throw this bone out:

Do you think that Papa's symphonies would have attracted more attention, or gotten more run on this board like LvB's, Brahms, or even Mahler, had he not written so many? Can you imagine if we only had nine or so? Might they be discussed more? Do you think folks look at that number and say, "Too much to chew on." With the likes of less than a dozen, their are cycles galore, but only a handful of Haydn runs.

That's a hard one. I think some people are scared off by the numbers, after all, 100(+) symphonies is a lot! But they make up such an interesting development of his work. I think it is hard to take some away and decide with any certainty whether they still would have been popular and impactful. It is also hard to imagine how he got to the end without the ones before. And if he didn't get to the end, I'm not sure they would be as popular as they are.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 16, 2013, 09:47:22 AM

Quote from: Bogey on February 16, 2013, 08:49:00 AM
For fun, since the symphonies are at the forefront of the blog at this point, I want to throw this bone out:

Do you think that Papa's symphonies would have attracted more attention, or gotten more run on this board like LvB's, Brahms, or even Mahler, had he not written so many? Can you imagine if we only had nine or so? Might they be discussed more? Do you think folks look at that number and say, "Too much to chew on." With the likes of less than a dozen, their are cycles galore, but only a handful of Haydn runs.

In the introductory essay to this series I put that same speculation out, hoping for some sort of discussion on it. I believe it is quite true, actually, and I offer that based on the fact that when small groups are discussed, there is more participation than if 'the symphonies' are thrown out. So, when it's "The London Symphonies" or "The Paris Symphonies", then people seem quite eager to discuss. But the larger volume of the entire oeuvre seems off-putting. But as you are discovering now, even smaller groups like 'the early symphonies' have their fascination. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 16, 2013, 09:48:50 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 16, 2013, 09:44:55 AM
That's a hard one. I think some people are scared off by the numbers, after all, 100(+) symphonies is a lot! But they make up such an interesting development of his work. I think it is hard to take some away and decide with any certainty whether they still would have been popular and impactful. It is also hard to imagine how he got to the end without the ones before. And if he didn't get to the end, I'm not sure they would be as popular as they are.

I believe the number has a a lot to do with it as well. In short, I believe "the more" has more to do with less folks excited about these symphonies than the music. Mozart's almost in the same boat. We're not talking lightweights here. Also it is difficult for people to collect 'em and compare them.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 16, 2013, 09:51:10 AM

Yes, I've found it necessary to embark on practically a full survey, just to have a frame of reference. Of course, the music has been ample reward for the effort. Likewise the string quartets, the piano sonatas . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 16, 2013, 09:55:07 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 16, 2013, 09:47:22 AM
In the introductory essay to this series I put that same speculation out, hoping for some sort of discussion on it. I believe it is quite true, actually, and I offer that based on the fact that when small groups are discussed, there is more participation than if 'the symphonies' are thrown out. So, when it's "The London Symphonies" or "The Paris Symphonies", then people seem quite eager to discuss. But the larger volume of the entire oeuvre seems off-putting. But as you are discovering now, even smaller groups like 'the early symphonies' have their fascination. :)

8)

Is this in the blog, Gurn?

I almost mentioned the Paris and Londons on the same basis as well. Plus, 100 plus can be a bit of work. After the first five I jostled back to my comfort food of chamber Beethoven. Where as if I had done the Brahms run....well, I would have been done. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 16, 2013, 10:02:20 AM

Quote from: Bogey on February 16, 2013, 09:55:07 AM
Is this in the blog, Gurn?

I almost mentioned the Paris and Londons on the same basis as well. Plus, 100 plus can be a bit of work. After the first five I jostled back to my comfort food of chamber Beethoven. Where as if I had done the Brahms run....well, I would have been done. :D

QuoteYes, Haydn was a professional composer and part of his job was to write music most days. After 40 + years, things began to accumulate, so there is a lot of it. I will try to sort this for you, at the same step as we deal with the Hoboken Catalog; that is, one at a time. Only way to do it, isn't it? As for the stories one hears ('no point even listening to piano trios before the very last ones' is one, another is 'all the symphonies sound alike'), I think we will be able to dispel those with a little judicious listening and some open-minded thinking. Which I say because after 10 years spent here virtually every day, I know that a lot of people already have their minds made up about music from 1750 to 1780. So we will try to get it off from your personal dustheap and onto your player where it belongs.

Earlier I had merely listed some obstacles to Haydn's popularity, and then addressed that one just a bit with this paragraph. I did want people to view it as a challenge for discussion, but you know me, I tend towards obliqueness. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 16, 2013, 10:09:57 AM

I guess the other challenge I face with the symphonies, and maybe others do as well, is that with so many their is the memory of each. Easier to discuss one of LvB's without a re-listen where if you say, "So, the second movement in No. 23....what do you think?" Difficult for most to react without a re-listen.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 16, 2013, 10:12:42 AM

Could I get to where I could tell someone something that is unique to each....no, but for me that does not diminish the journey.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 16, 2013, 10:18:22 AM

Quote from: Bogey on February 16, 2013, 10:09:57 AM
I guess the other challenge I face with the symphonies, and maybe others do as well, is that with so many their is the memory of each. Easier to discuss one of LvB's without a re-listen where if you say, "So, the second movement in No. 23....what do you think?" Difficult for most to react without a re-listen.

Exactly. For dozens of the symphonies, my initial listen (which has been the only, so far) has yielded little more than This is good, this is not any "juvenile" work, each symphony has its own profile.

I have retained a recollection of the profile of more of the symphonies than I ever had before, Bill, but . . . not that my goal is pure mental recollection of each of the 104 (plus), but recollection of enough to take responsible part in a conversation : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 16, 2013, 10:19:08 AM

Quote from: Bogey on February 16, 2013, 10:12:42 AM
Could I get to where I could tell someone something that is unique to each....no, but for me that does not diminish the journey.

And: Exactly, again. : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 16, 2013, 10:21:01 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 16, 2013, 10:18:22 AM
Exactly. For dozens of the symphonies, my initial listen (which has been the only, so far) has yielded little more than This is good, this is not any "juvenile" work, each symphony has its own profile.

I have retained a recollection of the profile of more of the symphonies than I ever had before, Bill, but . . . not that my goal is pure mental recollection of each of the 104 (plus), but recollection of enough to take responsible part in a conversation : )

I believe that is why I want to keep my notes here on each one on a separate document. Just to go back from time to time. Also, a few days between each discs worth will help me as well. And good afternoon, Karl.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 16, 2013, 10:31:58 AM

Quote from: Bogey on February 16, 2013, 10:12:42 AM
Could I get to where I could tell someone something that is unique to each....no, but for me that does not diminish the journey.

Quote from: karlhenning on February 16, 2013, 10:18:22 AM
Exactly. For dozens of the symphonies, my initial listen (which has been the only, so far) has yielded little more than This is good, this is not any "juvenile" work, each symphony has its own profile.

I have retained a recollection of the profile of more of the symphonies than I ever had before, Bill, but . . . not that my goal is pure mental recollection of each of the 104 (plus), but recollection of enough to take responsible part in a conversation : )

I don't know anyone who could recollect a specific movement of any symphony you name. I'm in the same boat as y'all are, possibly even more so since I have gone way beyond oen genre to encompass all of them. Some of the piano trios and some of the string quartets, some solo keyboard works and a few symphonies are the best I have been able to permanently catalog. I think Karl is on the right track in just trying to get a good enough grip to be able to talk about unusual features and the like. That in itself is an accomplishment! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 16, 2013, 10:44:02 AM

Too me Haydn is like a fine wine cellar. You open a bottle and share it with friends and not worry about if you will have have the same bottle again as there is way too much more to enjoy.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 16, 2013, 10:58:54 AM

Just for fun, I searched a few of the labels that lean toward historical recordings (Pearl, Music and Arts, Opus Kura). I could not find (now, I did not search too hard), but nonetheless, I could not find a disc of all Haydn music. A symphony or cello piece here or there, but not a complete disc.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 16, 2013, 01:05:25 PM

Quote from: Bogey on February 16, 2013, 10:44:02 AM
Too me Haydn is like a fine wine cellar. You open a bottle and share it with friends and not worry about if you will have have the same bottle again as there is way too much more to enjoy.

Ah, the danger-filled wine analogy. Gotta be careful with that one, Bill. :D I share the mellow perspective though. 0:)

Quote from: Bogey on February 16, 2013, 10:58:54 AM
Just for fun, I searched a few of the labels that lean toward historical recordings (Pearl, Music and Arts, Opus Kura). I could not find (now, I did not search too hard), but nonetheless, I could not find a disc of all Haydn music. A symphony or cello piece here or there, but not a complete disc.

That's because there were hardly any scores available to those guys to play from. Most certainly there are a few symphonies, for example, and a concerto here and there, but overall if you subtract the string quartets, Haydn's oeuvre is only slightly larger than my own by how it appears before the early 1950's. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on February 16, 2013, 01:32:18 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 16, 2013, 09:47:22 AM
In the introductory essay to this series I put that same speculation out, hoping for some sort of discussion on it. I believe it is quite true, actually, and I offer that based on the fact that when small groups are discussed, there is more participation than if 'the symphonies' are thrown out. So, when it's "The London Symphonies" or "The Paris Symphonies", then people seem quite eager to discuss. But the larger volume of the entire oeuvre seems off-putting. But as you are discovering now, even smaller groups like 'the early symphonies' have their fascination. :)

8)

Haydn's s a composer with a bad rep. You know the sort of thing, he's just some guy who wrote cheerful tunes. Shallower than Beethoven and less humane than Mozart and he's got no angst like Schubert. Haydn doesn't do tragedy. He just churned out loads of nice soithing music, sometimes with a jolly joke in there too.

This idea of Haydn goes way back to his earliest biographers, who may have had their own reasons for promoting it. I think this idea is reflected in quite a lot of modern performances too. I used to believe it myself.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 16, 2013, 01:41:57 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on February 16, 2013, 01:32:18 PM

Haydn's s a composer with a bad rep. You know the sort of thing, he's just some guy who wrote cheerful tunes. Shallower than Beethoven and less humane than Mozart and he's got no angst like Schubert. Haydn doesn't do tragedy. He just churned out loads of nice soithing music, sometimes with a jolly joke in there too.

This idea of Haydn goes way back to his earliest biographers, who may have had their own reasons for promoting it. I think this idea is reflected in quite a lot of modern performances too. I used to believe it myself.

Absolutely what I was thinking of. Despite the fact that we have become better educated about music history in the last 40 years, those things are so ingrained that they will take another 40 years to disappear, it seems. I don't name names, but when I first started posting on this list over 10 years ago, there were people who would happily tell you without turning a hair that you would be a fool to get the entire (for example) BAT trios (at that time still the only complete cycle out there) because only the very last ones were musically worth your while. The pervasive idea of only listening to the crème de la crème was still in full flower at that time, which is fine, I suppose, but the ideas attached to it, like no Haydn before the Paris Symphonies, and no Mozart before he moved to Vienna and nothing but Late Beethoven even!! That's air that is too rarefied for me to breathe, I'm afraid. :) I'm an animal; I love it! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 16, 2013, 01:53:12 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 16, 2013, 01:41:57 PM
Absolutely what I was thinking of. Despite the fact that we have become better educated about music history in the last 40 years, those things are so ingrained that they will take another 40 years to disappear, it seems. I don't name names, but when I first started posting on this list over 10 years ago, there were people who would happily tell you without turning a hair that you would be a fool to get the entire (for example) BAT trios (at that time still the only complete cycle out there) because only the very last ones were musically worth your while. The pervasive idea of only listening to the crème de la crème was still in full flower at that time, which is fine, I suppose, but the ideas attached to it, like no Haydn before the Paris Symphonies, and no Mozart before he moved to Vienna and nothing but Late Beethoven even!! That's air that is too rarefied for me to breathe, I'm afraid. :) I'm an animal; I love it! :D

8)

Yeah, but Bach gets all the breaks.

The suites were not widely known before the 1900s, and for a long time it was generally thought that the pieces were intended to be studies. However, after discovering Grützmacher's edition in a thrift shop in Barcelona, Spain at age 13, Pablo Casals began studying them. Although he would later perform the works publicly, it was not until 1925, when he was 48, that he agreed to record the pieces, becoming the first to record all six suites. Their popularity soared soon after, and Casals' original recording is still widely available today.

So, is our listening and enjoyment still in the pioneer era of enjoying Haydn, Gurn? Or are we its second generation?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 16, 2013, 01:59:12 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 16, 2013, 01:05:25 PM
Ah, the danger-filled wine analogy. Gotta be careful with that one, Bill. :D I share the mellow perspective though. 0:)

That's because there were hardly any scores available to those guys to play from. Most certainly there are a few symphonies, for example, and a concerto here and there, but overall if you subtract the string quartets, Haydn's oeuvre is only slightly larger than my own by how it appears before the early 1950's. :)

8)

I live on the edge, buddy! ;D

As for the scores, that explains it and I will relax on putting together a historical run.....maybe. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 16, 2013, 02:09:11 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 16, 2013, 01:41:57 PM
Absolutely what I was thinking of. Despite the fact that we have become better educated about music history in the last 40 years, those things are so ingrained that they will take another 40 years to disappear, it seems. I don't name names, but when I first started posting on this list over 10 years ago, there were people who would happily tell you without turning a hair that you would be a fool to get the entire (for example) BAT trios (at that time still the only complete cycle out there) because only the very last ones were musically worth your while. The pervasive idea of only listening to the crème de la crème was still in full flower at that time, which is fine, I suppose, but the ideas attached to it, like no Haydn before the Paris Symphonies, and no Mozart before he moved to Vienna and nothing but Late Beethoven even!! That's air that is too rarefied for me to breathe, I'm afraid. :) I'm an animal; I love it! :D

8)

Well, and let's say for the sake of discussion that there is some portion of the Mozart œuvre which is genuine juvenilia, i.e., music written while he was yet so young, that you'd need to be obsessive (even if professionally) to take an interest in it.

a) If someone approaches "Papa's" œuvre with the minimal knowledge which is not unusual even for a great many music professionals, and:

b) That someone tries mentally to "fill in" with "Wolferl" as a model:

— voilà! you have the ready prejudice that there must be large patches of Haydn before a certain date which we can safely disregard.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 16, 2013, 02:13:37 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 16, 2013, 02:09:11 PM
Well, and let's say for the sake of discussion that there is some portion of the Mozart œuvre which is genuine juvenilia, i.e., music written while he was yet so young, that you'd need to be obsessive (even if professionally) to take an interest in it.

a) If someone approaches "Papa's" œuvre with the minimal knowledge which is not unusual even for a great many music professionals, and:

b) That someone tries mentally to "fill in" with "Wolferl" as a model:

— voilà! you have the ready prejudice that there must be large patches of Haydn before a certain date which we can safely disregard.[/glow]

Definitely need to stay away from that, at least in my case, as many composers, including LvB, I enjoy their more youthful output as much, if not more than their later.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 16, 2013, 02:17:26 PM

Well, Bill, in “Papa’s” case, it may simply not apply. Gurn must perforce know better than I, but the earliest pieces of Haydn’s which I have heard, are the work of a mature professional.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 16, 2013, 02:19:59 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 16, 2013, 02:17:26 PM
Well, Bill, in "Papa's" case, it may simply not apply. Gurn must perforce know better than I, but the earliest pieces of Haydn's which I have heard, are the work of a mature professional.

Oh, I follow you now. Very little in the youth output you were talking.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 16, 2013, 02:30:56 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 16, 2013, 02:09:11 PM
Well, and let's say for the sake of discussion that there is some portion of the Mozart œuvre which is genuine juvenilia, i.e., music written while he was yet so young, that you'd need to be obsessive (even if professionally) to take an interest in it.

a) If someone approaches "Papa's" œuvre with the minimal knowledge which is not unusual even for a great many music professionals, and:

b) That someone tries mentally to "fill in" with "Wolferl" as a model:

— voilà! you have the ready prejudice that there must be large patches of Haydn before a certain date which we can safely disregard.

Very much so. They don't take into account that Mozart started to compose when he was 5, so his juvenilia actually IS juvenilia. Haydn was a working musician when he was 7 or 8, but he didn't really start to compose on his own until he was 20, and he was already nearly 30 when he hired on with the Esterházy's!

O point that I haven't really hit on, but one which I have only come to realize through intensive listening is that Haydn's early music was not really indicative of a learning process that culminated with his London style, or whatever you consider to be the arrival of Viennese Classicism in his works. His early symphonies, and his early quartets and trios and keyboard sonatas are fully mature works in their own right. They aren't the beginning of a road going to where he ended up. I guess what I mean is that it isn't as though he "saw" Classicism as a goal and worked out the puzzles it took to get there. It is instead as though he was simply taking what was there and trying to be the best at dealing with that. It's like evolution; a fish wasn't trying to become a mammal, he just did. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 16, 2013, 02:38:27 PM

Quote from: Bogey on February 16, 2013, 01:53:12 PM
Yeah, but Bach gets all the breaks.

The suites were not widely known before the 1900s, and for a long time it was generally thought that the pieces were intended to be studies. However, after discovering Grützmacher's edition in a thrift shop in Barcelona, Spain at age 13, Pablo Casals began studying them. Although he would later perform the works publicly, it was not until 1925, when he was 48, that he agreed to record the pieces, becoming the first to record all six suites. Their popularity soared soon after, and Casals' original recording is still widely available today.

So, is our listening and enjoyment still in the pioneer era of enjoying Haydn, Gurn? Or are we its second generation?

Second generation, no doubt. Today Internet has generated a sort of collective intelligence/colaborative knowledge, which develops and spreads new tendencies in a way incomparably easier and fast than in the past, when they are accepted. Haydn is no more "Papa" Haydn, as those 10 years referred by Gurn are, in this matter, roughly 40 years of the past.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on February 16, 2013, 07:59:01 PM

As promised, I gave that Fey CD a new listen this evening.
The precise CD involved is Volume 8, with Symphonies 41, 44 and 47

Result:

Not so meh as previous, but still doesn't make me want to run out and get the others in this series.

The performances themselves seemed good, but not outstanding. But possibly someone with a smaller pile of music calling out to be given a listen would be more enthusiastic about them.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on February 16, 2013, 11:08:37 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 16, 2013, 07:59:01 PM
As promised, I gave that Fey CD a new listen this evening.
The precise CD involved is Volume 8, with Symphonies 41, 44 and 47

Result:

Not so meh as previous, but still doesn't make me want to run out and get the others in this series.

The performances themselves seemed good, but not outstanding. But possibly someone with a smaller pile of music calling out to be given a listen would be more enthusiastic about them.

What I would say is that the more I listen to Fey, and the more I listen comparatively, the more I appreciate what he does. Especially in terms of tempos and rhythms: he's much more nuanced than I gave him credit for on first listening. And sometimes (like in the andante of 41 for example) I think he's unforgettable. For me the bright sound of the ensemble was a bit of a problem, I wanted something a bit richer.

Having said that there's a CD of symphonies conducted by Gary Cooper which overlaps considerably with this Fey one, and which I enjoyed too. In some bits (like the allegro of 44 I enjoyed Cooper much more than Fey)

By the way, I'm sure I once heard a really amazing 47, but I just can't remember where. Fey's pretty good there I think.

I'll just mention, since the topic is Haydn, that I've been enjoying Gielen's 103 recently. Worth catching on spotify I would say.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on February 16, 2013, 11:30:03 PM

Quote from: Bogey on February 16, 2013, 01:53:12 PM
Yeah, but Bach gets all the breaks.

The suites were not widely known before the 1900s, and for a long time it was generally thought that the pieces were intended to be studies. However, after discovering Grützmacher's edition in a thrift shop in Barcelona, Spain at age 13, Pablo Casals began studying them. Although he would later perform the works publicly, it was not until 1925, when he was 48, that he agreed to record the pieces, becoming the first to record all six suites. Their popularity soared soon after, and Casals' original recording is still widely available today.

So, is our listening and enjoyment still in the pioneer era of enjoying Haydn, Gurn? Or are we its second generation?

Harnoncourt stands to Haydn as Casals stands to Bach. In the Paris Symphonies. Suddenly in Harnoncourt's hands these pices become so much more challenging, provoking than was imagined before. Everyone previously had played then as a sequence of tunes with some stuff going on in the background. In my opinion that's unacceptable.

I would like to hear all Haydn symphonies played like Harnoncourt plays 84.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Octave on February 16, 2013, 11:53:49 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on February 16, 2013, 11:30:03 PM
Harnoncourt stands to Haydn as Casals stands to Bach. In the Paris Symphonies. Suddenly in Harnoncourt's hands these pices become so much more challenging, provoking than was imagined before. Everyone previously had played then as a sequence of tunes with some stuff going on in the background. In my opinion that's unacceptable.

I would like to hear all Haydn symphonies played like Harnoncourt plays 84.

Harnoncourt's 'Paris' recordings aren't completely sui generis, though, are they? What is the difference between his conception of the Paris symphonies and the prior/other 'tunes/stuff'-foreground/background approach? I'm not sure I understand the thrust of your argument, but it seems that you're saying that virtually all older recordings (not necessarily all modern-instruments recordings, but all pre-HIP-golden-age recordings) are not of interest to you, is that right? What changed in interpretations?

I thought the conversation was moving in the direction of a sea-change in our understanding of Haydn's music and the way we listened to it and read it; but Mandryka seems to suggest that what's interesting in Haydn is missing from basically everyone's performances. Specific examples would help me here.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on February 17, 2013, 12:17:13 AM

I must confess you what my problem with listening to Haydn is like.

After the Great Haydn Era in my life in 1996 when I had bought all symphonies, concertos, masses, oratorios, quartets, trios, piano sonatas and Eszterhaza operas, I tried to come back to this music several times. The most practical way to do it was of course listen to all the quartets. So I started listening with Op. 1 in recording of Kodaly Quartet (yes, I know these works are not really quartets) - and then I listened to this opus for week or two and couldn't go further because I found it so unbelievably beauty, perfect and full of incredibly tasty details. And then the pile of new records wanted to be heard so there was no way to stay with my Haydn project.

Trying to begin with real quartets or with symphonies didn't make things better any more.

Haydn is not my favorite composer. Beethoven the thinker and Bach the computer are for me above all the others. But only slightly above Mozart the most perfect and the most subtle ear and Haydn the man of the music as it should be or just the music as it really is.

Of course I appreciate all the subtlety and intelligence of Haydn's music. He made the new era with his ability to give all the things in brackets - in thousands kinds of brackets and milions kinds of brackets in brackets. But there is something beside this intelligence of his music mind - the very special gift to achieve all that could be achieved in the most simple way.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on February 17, 2013, 01:26:30 AM

Quote from: Octave on February 16, 2013, 11:53:49 PM
Harnoncourt's 'Paris' recordings aren't completely sui generis, though, are they? What is the difference between his conception of the Paris symphonies and the prior/other 'tunes/stuff'-foreground/background approach? I'm not sure I understand the thrust of your argument, but it seems that you're saying that virtually all older recordings (not necessarily all modern-instruments recordings, but all pre-HIP-golden-age recordings) are not of interest to you, is that right? What changed in interpretations?

I thought the conversation was moving in the direction of a sea-change in our understanding of Haydn's music and the way we listened to it and read it; but Mandryka seems to suggest that what's interesting in Haydn is missing from basically everyone's performances. Specific examples would help me here.

Correct. The conversation was moving in the direction of a sea-change in our understanding of Haydn's music and I am suggesting indeed that what's interesting in Haydn is missing from basically everyone's performances. Though these two propositions are clearly related.

My contention is that pre Harnoncourt, the basic understanding of Haydn was that he wrote rumbustious music, best played by latching onto the big tunes and performing them as elegantly and as wittily as possible . There are exceptions -- Van Beinum and maybe Fricsay and Abendroth are the obvious ones , and there are some others. Harnoncourt at his best in Haydn is not like this. Dissonances are highlighted, the phrasing sometimes jolts. The music becomes much more challenging. Some of the time I hear the same sort of conception from Bruggen, and occasionally from others like Richard Tognetti and Peter Guelke.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on February 17, 2013, 06:57:24 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on February 17, 2013, 05:52:17 AM
I am going to give Thomas Fey more of a listen since I've only really sampled a couple of his recordings. Spotify and MOG have most if not all of his releases to date, so I will spending today and a few days next week listening to his Haydn recordings. So far my impression is better than what I came away with from my experience with #31.

He's also done a near complete set of Mendelssohn symphonies, if anyone is interested.

:)

I didn't know Fey has a Mendelssohn recording! Want to hear that! Thank God for spotify!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on February 17, 2013, 07:33:12 AM

Gurn, I'm continually impressed with your Haydn project, it is such a help! Thanks again 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on February 17, 2013, 07:36:32 AM

Quote from: mszczuj on February 17, 2013, 12:17:13 AM
Beethoven the thinker and Bach the computer are for me above all the others. But only slightly above Mozart the most perfect and the most subtle ear and Haydn the man of the music as it should be or just the music as it really is.

Of course I appreciate all the subtlety and intelligence of Haydn's music. He made the new era with his ability to give all the things in brackets - in thousands kinds of brackets and milions kinds of brackets in brackets. But there is something beside this intelligence of his music mind - the very special gift to achieve all that could be achieved in the most simple way.

How wonderfully well put is "Haydn the man of the music as it should be or just the music as it really is" I've never thought of Haydn that way, and it would be a perfect title for a Haydn book.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 17, 2013, 07:53:40 AM

This thread goes more and more encomiastic with each passing day so a little Devil's Advocate is in order... ;D

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 14, 2013, 09:54:51 AM
I have no doubt that he could have done, just as he did with so many other forms. But I see no indication that the Prince had any interest in concertos

From this it can be inferred that Haydn had no interest in anything that his Prince had no interest in, and it was just a stroke of luck that the Prince wanted symphonies and string quartets. Had Eszterhazy Nikolaus been interested only in wind serenades and guitar duos, we could have kissed most of Haydn's oeuvre good bye. ;D

Quote from: karlhenning on February 16, 2013, 07:25:14 AM
Well, but it is was not as if "Papa" had been a free agent in The Marketplace, where there might have arisen 'conflicting commissions': he was a servant at Esterháza, where the Prince headed a fairly orderly household.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 16, 2013, 07:33:57 AM
Karl is quite right though; Haydn didn't work by commission until quite late in his career. He had a contractual obligation to appear in uniform every day before lunch and take orders on what the Prince wanted to hear, and then go and write it, practice it, and play it on schedule. He didn't have time for 'art for art's sake'. :)

Precisely: a genius no doubt, but nevertheless a servile one. The Prince ordered and he obeyed. ;D It is against this kind of subordination that the Romantics rose in rebellion, among other things --- and rightly so. Exactly as in my Victor Hugo signature: Music expresses that which cannot be said and on which it is impossible to be silent --- Eszterhazy or Colloredo or anyone else be damned for not liking/accepting/ordering it. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on February 17, 2013, 07:55:23 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 27, 2013, 07:32:46 AM
Haydn officially did the "Laudon" symphony (Hob 69 in C) but intentionally left off the Finale, saying that it wouldn't work on a piano anyway. I don't know any others that he did himself, although everyone and their brother did piano reductions back them, most of them uncredited (hired by the publisher, so to say). :)

8)

Has this thing ever been recorded? I can't see it in Bart van Oort's box of misc. works.

I'm really dying to hear it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 17, 2013, 07:55:46 AM

Quote from: Charles RosenIt may even be argued that Mozart's melodies are not only more conventional than Haydn's, but in general less 'characteristic,' less imediately descriptive of a specific sentiment or action. Mozart's musical references rarely descend to the particularity of Haydn's tone-painting and sentiment-painting in his two great oratorios.

Pfffffffff.... ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 17, 2013, 07:57:53 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 16, 2013, 10:31:58 AM
I don't know anyone who could recollect a specific movement of any symphony you name.

I am able to recollect the 1st and last movements of #88 and, of course, the 2nd from "The Surprise". :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 17, 2013, 08:01:41 AM

I can, of course, instantly recall the cat theme from the first movement of 99 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 17, 2013, 08:05:15 AM

Today I've been listening to #30 "Halleluja" and #91 with St. Paul SO conducted by Nicholas McGhegan, They both featured the harpsichord, but while in the former it worked wonders and really added something of value to the rythmic drive, in the latter it was barely audible and in the rare instances it was heard it was only an annoying tinkle-tinkle of no musical significance whatsoever. ???

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 17, 2013, 08:13:58 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 17, 2013, 07:57:53 AM
I am able to recollect the 1st and last movements of #88 and, of course, the 2nd from "The Surprise". :D

And the 2nd movement of #101 too. But I meant more like;

Gurn: Hey, what's that symphony playing on the radio?

Florestan: Oh, that's the minuet from Haydn #55, The Schoolmaster.

That would be totally out there!! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 17, 2013, 08:18:44 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 17, 2013, 08:13:58 AM
Gurn: Hey, what's that symphony playing on the radio?

Florestan: Oh, that's the minuet from Haydn #55, The Schoolmaster.

Karl: Oh no, that's the Adagio from the Philosopher!

Bogey: Bah, humbug! It's the first movement of the Military all the way!

Gordon Shumway: Are you all nuts? That's Maria Theresia!

Leo K.: You're all wrong, guys, sorry! That's Mozart's 40 th.

;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 17, 2013, 08:29:57 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on February 17, 2013, 07:55:23 AM
Has this thing ever been recorded? I can't see it in Bart van Oort's box of misc. works.

I'm really dying to hear it.

I'm pretty sure I have it somewhere, I'll keep looking. Meanwhile, I remembered this one which is pretty nice too;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BachJCOp5frontcover_zpsd18a72f7.jpg)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/BachJCOp5backcover_zpsaed117e3.jpg)

Symphony #53 was hugely popular in England dating back to nearly the time of its composition (mid 1770's). Bach probably did the piano reduction to perform it at the Bach/Abel Concerts.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 17, 2013, 08:31:19 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 17, 2013, 08:18:44 AM
Karl: Oh no, that's the Adagio from the Philosopher!

Bogey: Bah, humbug! It's the first movement of the Military all the way!

Gordon Shumway: Are you all nuts? That's Maria Theresia!

Leo K.: You're all wrong, guys, sorry! That's Mozart's 40 th.

;D ;D ;D

Probably nearer to right. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 17, 2013, 09:01:03 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 17, 2013, 08:05:15 AM
Today I've been listening to #30 "Halleluja" and #91 with St. Paul SO conducted by Nicholas McGhegan, They both featured the harpsichord, but while in the former it worked wonders and really added something of value to the rythmic drive, in the latter it was barely audible and in the rare instances it was heard it was only an annoying tinkle-tinkle of no musical significance whatsoever. ???

Gurn, which is the last symphony that features a harpsichord in the original score?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 17, 2013, 09:02:22 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 17, 2013, 09:01:03 AM
Gurn, which is the last symphony that features a harpsichord in the original score?

#98

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 17, 2013, 09:07:22 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 17, 2013, 09:02:22 AM
#98

Thanks. How do you like them: with or without harpsichord?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 17, 2013, 09:13:23 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 17, 2013, 09:07:22 AM
Thanks. How do you like them: with or without harpsichord?

I have heard most of the arguments from both sides, both the technical aspect arguments and the I just don't like it arguments. In all honesty, I like them both ways, no matter. As I tried to show in the last blog post, the size of that orchestra was so small that if you are playing with an authentic size orchestra, the continuo has to be a help in filling in. If you have one of Goodman's early symphony disks and one of Hogwood's, you can take it for granted that orchestra sizes are virtually identical, but one has a harpsichord and the other doesn't. You can hear a difference, of course, but deciding whether it matter to you or not is a bit harder. My feeling is that either way is authentic; even if Haydn's band didn't use continuo (which isn't proven), you can bet that everyone else did. It just was automatic. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 17, 2013, 09:18:31 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 17, 2013, 09:13:23 AM
I have heard most of the arguments from both sides, both the technical aspect arguments and the I just don't like it arguments. In all honesty, I like them both ways, no matter. As I tried to show in the last blog post, the size of that orchestra was so small that if you are playing with an authentic size orchestra, the continuo has to be a help in filling in. If you have one of Goodman's early symphony disks and one of Hogwood's, you can take it for granted that orchestra sizes are virtually identical, but one has a harpsichord and the other doesn't. You can hear a difference, of course, but deciding whether it matter to you or not is a bit harder. My feeling is that either way is authentic; even if Haydn's band didn't use continuo (which isn't proven), you can bet that everyone else did. It just was automatic. :)

Are the forces for #91 thicker than for #30 "Halleluja"?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on February 17, 2013, 09:59:42 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 17, 2013, 08:18:44 AM
Karl: Oh no, that's the Adagio from the Philosopher!

Bogey: Bah, humbug! It's the first movement of the Military all the way!

Gordon Shumway: Are you all nuts? That's Maria Theresia!

Leo K.: You're all wrong, guys, sorry! That's Mozart's 40 th.

;D ;D ;D

Being there, done that. For many years I started in TV game shows especially in some about classical music. "Haydn - his live and music" was without any doubt the most hopeless and the most frustrating among them. I didn't recognize "Maria Thersia" and answered "La Chasse" and answered "Sinfonia Concertane" while being asked for "Le Midi".

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 17, 2013, 10:02:37 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 17, 2013, 09:18:31 AM
Are the forces for #91 thicker than for #30 "Halleluja"?

How thick they are depends on which piece is played before intermission and just how many brews they had! :) I suspect the same was true in Haydn's time (and perhaps even more so - did they have intermissions in those days? or perhaps they drank before the performance?)...Have I stumbled upon the real meaning of HIP? Hungover in performance?!?! :o :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 17, 2013, 10:12:54 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 14, 2013, 09:17:08 AM
Part of my point with this fundamental reminder is:

1. In the genre of the concerto, it is not a simplistic matter of either "joining together" or "contending." Both elements are on display in examples of the genre from the outset. It is, after all, a Baroque genre, and the Baroque also saw the birth of the dramatic genre of opera.

2. While it is generally an error to "write off" dramatic opposition as a principle within the concerto as the Heroic Style generally associated with Beethoven, note Wolf's reference to Beethoven w/r/t the K. 503.

3. This thread is Haydn's place, and here's to it. It is worth reflecting that developing a sympathy with the environment and proper practice of Haydn's music should not be misapplied as a Procrustean bed, more broadly.

What about the Trumpet Concerto? I should happily concede that the organ concerti (e.g.) are more Conversation than Contest. But there is, I maintain, inarguable drama (as well as elegance) in the T.C.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 17, 2013, 11:33:14 AM

Oh, man . . . and I was sure that Bill's new thread stood for Nation of Haydn-Lovers!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 17, 2013, 11:58:50 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 17, 2013, 09:18:31 AM
Are the forces for #91 thicker than for #30 "Halleluja"?

#30 Flute, 2 Oboes, 2 Horns & Strings
#91 Flute, 2 Oboes, 2 Bassoons, 2 Horns & Strings

by which he means 2 bassoons with written parts, not just playing off the cello's part in the continuo section which there probably was one doing in the earlier work. My guess is that there were more 'strings' in the 'strings', for example viola (possibly even divided violas by 1788) and more on a part. Otherwise, not a lot of changes in the Esterházy Band in 23 years. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 17, 2013, 12:40:16 PM

Quote from: Leo K. on February 17, 2013, 07:33:12 AM
Gurn, I'm continually impressed with your Haydn project, it is such a help! Thanks again 8)

Thanks, Leo. A help is all I was hoping for. Ease the frustration of trying to find out some info and suddenly people have time to just enjoy the music. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 17, 2013, 12:44:08 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 17, 2013, 10:12:54 AM
What about the Trumpet Concerto? I should happily concede that the organ concerti (e.g.) are more Conversation than Contest. But there is, I maintain, inarguable drama (as well as elegance) in the T.C.

The trumpet concerto and the first cello concerto (with the second along by default) are the only ones of Haydn's concertos that are accepted into the Pantheon of Unarguably Great Music. Now, if they are the only ones who deserve to be there, that is arguable. :) Since I consider the Sinfonia Concertante to be a concerto, I would certainly add it too, since along with Mozart's for Violin & Viola it is the top of the genre. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 17, 2013, 06:12:33 PM

Symphony No. 6 (27)

How is the first movement an "adagio"? Loved the featured winds, especially the horn appearance.

Second movement felt like a violin concerto....a lovely one that is.

The third movement brought back the winds....never too much winds! It was my favorite of the four due to the almost Edvard Grieg-like "In the Hall of the Mountain King" moments. At least that is what I connected it with.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 17, 2013, 06:28:00 PM

Quote from: Bogey on February 17, 2013, 06:12:33 PM
Symphony No. 6 (27)

How is the first movement an "adagio"? Loved the featured winds, especially the horn appearance.

Second movement felt like a violin concerto....a lovely one that is.

The third movement brought back the winds....never too much winds! It was my favorite of the four due to the almost Edvard Grieg-like "In the Hall of the Mountain King" moments. At least that is what I connected it with.

This symphony features a great rarity from that time period; an introduction to the first movement. The Adagio opening is generally interpreted to be that period just at sunrise and then as the sun rises, the movement moves into Allegro. If you saw it listed in a symphony of a later period it would be "1st movement: Adagio - Allegro".

A really lovely work, one of my favorites! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 17, 2013, 06:30:31 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 17, 2013, 06:28:00 PM
This symphony features a great rarity from that time period; an introduction to the first movement. The Adagio opening is generally interpreted to be that period just at sunrise and then as the sun rises, the movement moves into Allegro. If you saw it listed in a symphony of a later period it would be "1st movement: Adagio - Allegro".

A really lovely work, one of my favorites! :)

8)

It was special....but many movements in the first five as well. Let me give that start a repeat along with the third movement.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 17, 2013, 06:37:32 PM

Got it. Thanks!

When you can, pull out a 6 and get to about the 1:50 mark of the 3rd. This is absolutely wonderful and my Grieg take.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 17, 2013, 06:51:12 PM

Quote from: Bogey on February 17, 2013, 06:37:32 PM
Got it. Thanks!

When you can, pull out a 6 and get to about the 1:50 mark of the 3rd. This is absolutely wonderful and my Grieg take.

Are you referring to the trio with the bassoon? If so, it's wonderful. Haydn is at his best in Symphonies when he has solos written throughout. For example 98's finale, the oboe in the opening and solo violin halfway through are both extremely smile-inducing. ;D (sorry, jumped the gun to 98 only because I began to listen to it, a London favorite of mine)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 17, 2013, 06:58:56 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 17, 2013, 06:51:12 PM
Are you referring to the trio with the bassoon? If so, it's wonderful. Haydn is at his best in Symphonies when he has solos written throughout. For example 98's finale, the oboe in the opening and solo violin halfway through are both extremely smile-inducing. ;D (sorry, jumped the gun to 98 only because I began to listen to it, a London favorite of mine)

Now get off this board, Greg and get to the tv for Downton! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 18, 2013, 03:01:56 AM

Quote from: Bogey on February 17, 2013, 06:58:56 PM
Now get off this board, Greg and get to the tv for Downton! ;D

I bought the 3rd Season blue ray over a month ago, I'm all caught up so I can spend more time in the Haus! ;) :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 18, 2013, 04:23:42 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 17, 2013, 06:51:12 PM
Are you referring to the trio with the bassoon? If so, it's wonderful. Haydn is at his best in Symphonies when he has solos written throughout. For example 98's finale, the oboe in the opening and solo violin halfway through are both extremely smile-inducing. ;D (sorry, jumped the gun to 98 only because I began to listen to it, a London favorite of mine)

Agreed. It was already verging on old-fashioned to use your soloists like a concertino in a symphony, but he did it so damned well that it became acceptable again, at least for the Esterházy Band. Like you guys, I like it! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 18, 2013, 04:35:07 AM

http://www.youtube.com/v/fI8sFARtcTY

Symphony No. 1 in D major Hob I: 1(1)

Adam Fischer & The Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra

First listening ever. Boy, this must be one of the best firsts out there. 1st movement: big, bold, grand --- like young Joseph crying out loud: Hey, you counts and dukes and princes, this poor wheelwright offspring here is gonna grab you all by the neck! 2nd movement: serene, peaceful, genial --- Hey, don't panic too much! I'm good-humored by nature and I'll treat your necks gently! 3rd movement: fun, humorous, almost tongue-in-cheek --- Stay tuned for more, Your Highnesses! You'll have the fun of your life!

Do we know what the reaction of Count Morzin was when hearing it, Gurn?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 18, 2013, 05:11:24 AM

Quote from: Bogey on February 15, 2013, 10:55:41 AM
Just spent the morning in the car with symphonies 4 (2) and 5 (4).

Symphony 4:

I like the "outburst" like feel of the first movement. This paired with the silent periods (3:06 and 4:57) followed by a charge of music was the highlight. My only problem with this composition was that the finale was a menuetto. Made it feel like the last chapter of a who-dunnit mystery was missing. Was this purposeful? Was it lost? Was it ripped up by a patron or Haydn himself? Pappa needs a decent conspiracy theory like Mozart (death of) and Beethoven (Immortal Beloved), so I say we start here!

Symphony 5

What was striking here is the opening movement with an adagio. Kind of cool, but took a second to fall into it. In fact, the second movement almost seemed like it would work better ahead of the first. Sommeone number the compositions incorrectly?

In short, if anyone points out that Haydn's early symphonies all sound the same, they are greatly mistaken. The first five show this clearly.

Hey Gurn (and others in the know), any audience reactions to these earlier symphonies exist?

I asked the same question a bit earlier....aren't you just curious?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 18, 2013, 05:14:23 AM

Symphony No. 6 in D major "Le Matin" Hob I:6

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411N3PDSHZL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I might be guilty of Romanticizing it but I truly see this as a kind of Wanderer. Not the gloomy and resigned Schubert's one, but a happy, hopeful and genial one, waking up in the morning and walking through forests, climbing up hills and passing through small yet lively villages. Here listening to the birds chirping, there watching a procession of badgers; now joining a peasant dance, then having a pint of beer at the inn under linden and chestnut trees, finally going again on the road, wherever it might lead --- and at all times with an open heart and a soul filled with awe for the world's beauty. It strongly reminded me a paragraph in Hermann Hesse's novel Knulp where he extolls the freedom of a vagrant life.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 18, 2013, 05:17:22 AM

Quote from: Bogey on February 18, 2013, 05:11:24 AM
I asked the same question a bit earlier....aren't you just curious?

Sorry I missed it. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 18, 2013, 05:21:13 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 18, 2013, 05:17:22 AM
Sorry I missed it. :)

Are you doing a run through all the symphonies as well?

What are your thoughts (or what do you relate to) on the third movement of the 6th?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 18, 2013, 05:31:14 AM

Quote from: Bogey on February 18, 2013, 05:21:13 AM
Are you doing a run through all the symphonies as well?

I plan to, yes, though not in chronological order.

Quote
What are your thoughts (or what do you relate to) on the third movement of the 6th?

The Wanderer (embodied by the flute) arrives at a village just in time for joining a peasant merriment and is invited to take part in the dance, which he does willingly, but he is too quick in his movements, so a half-drunk old man (the bassoon) gives him a lesson in how to correctly dance. "You do have a point, sir!" concedes the Wanderer, "but i"ll stick to my rush; you see, there's a whole world out there waiting for me."

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 18, 2013, 05:33:06 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 18, 2013, 05:31:14 AM
I plan to, yes, though not in chronological order.

:)

If you could note from time to time what made you jump to a particular symphony, I would find it interesting to read.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 18, 2013, 05:34:59 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 18, 2013, 05:14:23 AM
Symphony No. 6 in D major "Le Matin" Hob I:6

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411N3PDSHZL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

I might be guilty of Romanticizing it but I truly see this as a kind of Wanderer. Not the gloomy and resigned Schubert's one, but a happy, hopeful and genial one, waking up in the morning and walking through forests, climbing up hills and passing through small yet lively villages. Here listening to the birds chirping, there watching a procession of badgers; now joining a peasant dance, then having a pint of beer at the inn under linden and chestnut trees, finally going again on the road, wherever it might lead --- and at all times with an open heart and a soul filled with awe for the world's beauty. It strongly reminded me a paragraph in Hermann Hesse's novel Knulp where he extolls the freedom of a vagrant life.

I don't know if I recall Schubert when I hear these symphonies, but one thing is sure for me: Haydn seems to be talking about a "real" Nature, not simply an "idealized" one, as I feel it's the case with another composers of the same period. You think: This guy has really lived outdoors. :)

BTW, what's your favorite Hesse novel, Andrei? Mine: Demian: Die Geschichte von Emil Sinclairs Jugend (Spanish translation, of course, as I don't read German).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 18, 2013, 05:35:59 AM

Quote from: Bogey on February 18, 2013, 05:33:06 AM
If you could note from time to time what made you jump to a particular symphony, I would find it interesting to read.

I started --- logically --- with the 1st then jumped to 6th because it was discussed above. :)

Where do I go now? ???

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 18, 2013, 05:39:14 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 18, 2013, 05:35:59 AM
I started --- logically --- with the 1st then jumped to 6th because it was discussed above. :)

Where do I go now? ???

First movement of the 4th. Impressions welcomed! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 18, 2013, 05:40:33 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 18, 2013, 05:35:59 AM
I started --- logically --- with the 1st then jumped to 6th because it was discussed above. :)

Where do I go now? ???

No. 37, probably the second or even the first Haydn symphony conserved. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 18, 2013, 05:48:57 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 18, 2013, 04:35:07 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/fI8sFARtcTY

Symphony No. 1 in D major Hob I: 1(1)

Adam Fischer & The Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra

First listening ever. Boy, this must be one of the best firsts out there. 1st movement: big, bold, grand --- like young Joseph crying out loud: Hey, you counts and dukes and princes, this poor wheelwright offspring here is gonna grab you all by the neck! 2nd movement: serene, peaceful, genial --- Hey, don't panic too much! I'm good-humored by nature and I'll treat your necks gently! 3rd movement: fun, humorous, almost tongue-in-cheek --- Stay tuned for more, Your Highnesses! You'll have the fun of your life!

Do we know what the reaction of Count Morzin was when hearing it, Gurn?

Well, I've said from the first that you can recognize the mature Haydn right from Symphony #1. Still do believe it, nice to see that you do too. Unfortunately, we don't have any documents from that period. We aren't even 100% sure whether he worked for the father or the son. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 18, 2013, 05:55:05 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on February 18, 2013, 05:34:59 AM
I don't know if I recall Schubert when I hear these symphonies,

Oh, me neither. It was only by contrast that I named him.

Quote
but one thing is sure for me: Haydn seems to be talking about a "real" Nature, not simply an "idealized" one, as I feel it's the case with another composers of the same period. You think: This guy has really lived outdoors. :)

Exactly. This is why I was reminded of "wandering" in a Hesse-esque, not Schubert-ian way. :)

Quote
BTW, what's your favorite Hesse novel, Andrei? Mine: Demian: Die Geschichte von Emil Sinclairs Jugend (Spanish translation, of course, as I don't read German).

That's indeed a great novel but my favorite is Steppenwolf. And my very favorite Hesse in all genres must be the poems contained in The Glass Bead Game. (translations, too.)

Speaking of Hesse and music, here's an excerpt from the introduction to TGBG which I think fits very well in this thread:

"We consider classical music to be the epitome and quintessence of our culture, because it is that culture's clearest, most significant gesture and expression. In this music we possess the heritage of classical antiquity and Christianity, a spirit of serenely cheerful and brave piety, a superbly chivalric morality. For in the final analysis every important cultural gesture comes down to a morality, a model for human behavior concentrated into a gesture. As we know, between 1500 and 1800 a wide variety of music was made; styles and means of expression were extremely variegated; but the spirit, or rather the morality, was everywhere the same. The human attitude of which classical music is the expression is always the same; it is always based on the same kind of insight into life and strives for the same kind of victory over blind chance. Classical music as gesture signifies knowledge of the tragedy of the human condition, affirmation of human destiny, courage, cheerful serenity. The grace of a minuet by Handel or Couperin, the sensuality sublimated into delicate gesture to be found in many Italian composers or in Mozart, the tranquil, composed readiness for death in Bach -- always there may be heard in these works a defiance, a death-defying intrepidity, a gallantry, and a note of superhuman laughter, of immortal gay serenity."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 18, 2013, 05:57:15 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 18, 2013, 05:48:57 AM
Well, I've said from the first that you can recognize the mature Haydn right from Symphony #1. Still do believe it, nice to see that you do too. Unfortunately, we don't have any documents from that period. We aren't even 100% sure whether he worked for the father or the son. :-\

8)

Yes, there are not even autographs of the Morzin symphonies, IIRC.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 18, 2013, 06:02:27 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on February 18, 2013, 05:40:33 AM
No. 37, probably the second or even the first Haydn symphony conserved. :)

Nearly certainly the 2nd. All sources (even Haydn himself) agree that #1 is #1. And that's saying something! :)

That said, #37 (2) is a fine piece. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 18, 2013, 06:05:09 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on February 18, 2013, 05:57:15 AM
Yes, there are not even autographs of the Morzin symphonies, IIRC.

I think a few of them, but mostly not. However, the parts that are widely distributed throughout the monasteries in the area are all done by the same 4 copyists and Haydn's own handwriting (as corrections) shows up on enough of them to be able to say that they are his. Handwriting and paper analysis is a wonderful thing!

But a letter or any sort of other document would be wonderful to have. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 18, 2013, 06:20:20 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 18, 2013, 06:05:09 AM
I think a few of them, but mostly not. However, the parts that are widely distributed throughout the monasteries in the area are all done by the same 4 copyists and Haydn's own handwriting (as corrections) shows up on enough of them to be able to say that they are his. Handwriting and paper analysis is a wonderful thing!

But a letter or any sort of other document would be wonderful to have. :-\

8)

It's probable as these things are always changing: past is always changing :) and who knows if any autograph has been found. But I recall -although my memory isn't what it used to be-, I have read somewhere that there are not autographs from that period. Apparently, the oldest copy is a 1758 copy [Symphony No. 37] from the archives of the Schwarzenberg princes, discovered at the Böhmisch Krumau Castle (Český Krumlov Castle: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%8Cesk%C3%BD_Krumlov_Castle).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 18, 2013, 06:34:33 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 18, 2013, 06:02:27 AM
Nearly certainly the 2nd. All sources (even Haydn himself) agree that #1 is #1. And that's saying something! :)

Of course, he says Griesinger that No. 1 was his first symphony, but maybe Haydn was wrong about the exact year (1759) because apparently he began writing symphonies in 1757. Or maybe he though Symphony No. 1 was a nice first work to open his symphonic canon. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 18, 2013, 06:45:10 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on February 18, 2013, 06:34:33 AM
Of course, he says Griesinger that No. 1 was his first symphony, but maybe Haydn was wrong about the exact year (1759) because apparently he began writing symphonies in 1757. Or maybe he though Symphony No. 1 was a nice first work to open his symphonic canon. ;)

That was in the 1805 Elssler chronicle, and in discussion with Griesinger. However, in the 1765 Entwurf Katalog he specifically listed it as his first symphony. It was indeed, 1757 though, which he didn't put dates in that early catalog because they weren't significant for his purpose. It can be fairly conceded that 45 years later he might have been a little foggy about a year here or there. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 18, 2013, 06:58:46 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 18, 2013, 06:45:10 AM
That was in the 1805 Elssler chronicle, and in discussion with Griesinger. However, in the 1765 Entwurf Katalog he specifically listed it as his first symphony. It was indeed, 1757 though, which he didn't put dates in that early catalog because they weren't significant for his purpose. It can be fairly conceded that 45 years later he might have been a little foggy about a year here or there. :)

8)

No doubt, frequently I have a lot of difficulties to recall if something happened three, four or five years ago. That's the reason why - now - all things of my near past happened around five years ago. ;D

Quotein the 1765 Entwurf Katalog he specifically listed it as his first symphony

Do you know if Symphony No. 37 is listed, Gurn?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 18, 2013, 07:07:26 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on February 18, 2013, 06:58:46 AM
No doubt, frequently I have a lot of difficulties to recall if something happened three, four or five years ago. That's the reason why - now - all things of my near past happened around five years ago. ;D

Do you know if Symphony No. 37 is listed, Gurn?

Not OTTOMH, but I can easily find out this evening when I get home. They are not hard to keep straight since he jotted a little incipit next to the listing, just as Mozart later did in his own Katalog. :)

8)
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 18, 2013, 07:16:48 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 18, 2013, 07:07:26 AM
Not OTTOMH, but I can easily find out this evening when I get home. They are not hard to keep straight since he jotted a little incipit next to the listing, just as Mozart later did in his own Katalog. :)

8)
8)

Just curious, Gurn, but are the folks that you work with aware of your level of enjoyment when it comes to Haydn, or classical music? Anyone there enjoy these topics with you?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 18, 2013, 07:27:50 AM

Quote from: Bogey on February 18, 2013, 07:16:48 AM
Just curious, Gurn, but are the folks that you work with aware of your level of enjoyment when it comes to Haydn, or classical music? Anyone there enjoy these topics with you?

:D No, they know that I love it, but no one here would be caught dead. It is my international jet set friends that get me going (and of course, my domestic jet set friends too, goes without saying!). :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 18, 2013, 07:29:15 AM

Quote from: Bogey on February 17, 2013, 06:12:33 PM
The third movement brought back the winds....never too much winds! It was my favorite of the four due to the almost Edvard Grieg-like "In the Hall of the Mountain King" moments. At least that is what I connected it with.

We should start a campaign to change the nickname of the Sixth from "Le Matin" to "The Troll" :D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 18, 2013, 07:34:30 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 18, 2013, 07:07:26 AM
Not OTTOMH, but I can easily find out this evening when I get home. They are not hard to keep straight since he jotted a little incipit next to the listing, just as Mozart later did in his own Katalog. :)

8)
8)

Excellent!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 18, 2013, 08:07:13 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 18, 2013, 07:29:15 AM
We should start a campaign to change the nickname of the Sixth from "Le Matin" to "The Troll" :D

Sarge

Hey, wait a minute... is that a troll? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 18, 2013, 09:42:02 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 18, 2013, 07:29:15 AM
We should start a campaign to change the nickname of the Sixth from "Le Matin" to "The Troll" :D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 18, 2013, 11:00:34 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 18, 2013, 05:55:05 AM
That's indeed a great novel but my favorite is Steppenwolf. And my very favorite Hesse in all genres must be the poems contained in The Glass Bead Game. (translations, too.)

Speaking of Hesse and music, here's an excerpt from the introduction to TGBG which I think fits very well in this thread:

"We consider classical music to be the epitome and quintessence of our culture, because it is that culture's clearest, most significant gesture and expression. In this music we possess the heritage of classical antiquity and Christianity, a spirit of serenely cheerful and brave piety, a superbly chivalric morality. For in the final analysis every important cultural gesture comes down to a morality, a model for human behavior concentrated into a gesture. As we know, between 1500 and 1800 a wide variety of music was made; styles and means of expression were extremely variegated; but the spirit, or rather the morality, was everywhere the same. The human attitude of which classical music is the expression is always the same; it is always based on the same kind of insight into life and strives for the same kind of victory over blind chance. Classical music as gesture signifies knowledge of the tragedy of the human condition, affirmation of human destiny, courage, cheerful serenity. The grace of a minuet by Handel or Couperin, the sensuality sublimated into delicate gesture to be found in many Italian composers or in Mozart, the tranquil, composed readiness for death in Bach -- always there may be heard in these works a defiance, a death-defying intrepidity, a gallantry, and a note of superhuman laughter, of immortal gay serenity."

I did read four novels by Hess, including Steppenwolf, but not The Glass Bead Game. Maybe it's time because I have a copy, also bought several years ago. That introduction sounds like the profession of faith of every Romantic spirit inclined to Music. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 18, 2013, 11:28:17 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on February 18, 2013, 11:00:34 AM
I did read four novels by Hess, including Steppenwolf, but not The Glass Bead Game. Maybe it's time because I have a copy, also bought several years ago.

Another great novel of his is Narcissus and Goldmund. His short stories and tales ar excellent too.

Quote
That introduction sounds like the profession of faith of every Romantic spirit inclined to Music. :)

Ain't it?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 18, 2013, 11:40:00 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on February 18, 2013, 11:26:48 AM
After spending yesterday and most of today listening to the Fey recordings of the symphonies I now know two things:

1. His recordings are better than I thought but still will not supplant my favorites.
2. I greatly prefer Haydn's chamber music to the symphonies.

#2 is true of all composers, though.

:)

#1: probably true for me, too, although I hate to think it is.
#2: true of all composers, though. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 18, 2013, 11:54:30 AM

Y'all have probably listened to more Fey (and mayhap Haydn) than I have, but I think Fey and Fischer are the only recordings I've heard of the Hornsignal, and I don't mind considering Fey my favorite, there.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 18, 2013, 12:14:18 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 18, 2013, 11:54:30 AM
Y'all have probably listened to more Fey (and mayhap Haydn) than I have, but I think Fey and Fischer are the only recordings I've heard of the Hornsignal, and I don't mind considering Fey my favorite, there.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/GoodmanHornsignalcover.jpg)

My favorite. Anthony Halstead on lead horn. It's a peach! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 18, 2013, 01:40:45 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on February 18, 2013, 11:26:48 AM
After spending yesterday and most of today listening to the Fey recordings of the symphonies I now know two things:

1. His recordings are better than I thought but still will not supplant my favorites.
2. I greatly prefer Haydn's chamber music to the symphonies.

#2 is true of all composers, though.

Sanantonio - that has a familiar ring to it! ;D Dave

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 18, 2013, 03:46:36 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on February 18, 2013, 01:45:51 PM
I like that too, but this one is good too.

(http://c3.cduniverse.ws/resized/250x500/music/169/7905169.jpg)

Have you heard it? Rifkin usually is PI, but this band can go either way. I don't have the actual item, only an mp3, so I don't have access to the notes and the Amazon image of the back cover does not say one way or the other.

No, never saw that one before. Capriccio is full of disks like that, nice, thematic rarities that they must have had a pressing of maybe 1000 copies and put to bed. I'll have a look round for it though, it looks interesting. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 18, 2013, 04:10:54 PM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on February 18, 2013, 06:58:46 AM
....Do you know if Symphony No. 37 is listed, Gurn?

Yes, #37 IS in the Entwurf Katalog. If you have the New Grove Haydn you will find on page 96, the 5th entry down from the top of the page. In the column titled "Authentication" it says 'EK'. In Volume 1 of Robbins-Landon there is a picture of the title page and the caption says "Title page of the earliest recorded MS (manuscript) of a Haydn symphony - No. 37 - dated 1758; Schwarzenburg Archives, Krumau" :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 18, 2013, 05:43:25 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on February 18, 2013, 01:45:51 PM
I like that too, but this one is good too.

(http://c3.cduniverse.ws/resized/250x500/music/169/7905169.jpg)

Have you heard it? Rifkin usually is PI, but this band can go either way. I don't have the actual item, only an mp3, so I don't have access to the notes and the Amazon image of the back cover does not say one way or the other.

The Capella Coloniensis is a 100% PI band. Actually, it's one of the oldest German ensembles playing on period instruments.

That disc and another three by them performing Haydn's symphonies are included in this relatively cheap 12-CD set:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4006408495208.jpg)

1.CD "Jagd-Symphonien":Symphonien Nr. 31 & 72 (Capella
Coloniensis, Joshua Rifkin / 1993)
+2.CD "Frühe Symphonien":Symphonien Nr. 5, 11, 12, 36 (Capella
Coloniensis, Ferdinand Leitner, Hans-Martin Linde / 1993)
+3.& 4.CD "Späte Symphonien":Symphonien Nr. 89, 90, 91, 92, 98
(Capella Coloniensis, Hans-Martin Linde, Ferdinand Leitner/
1982-1988)
+5.CD "Violinkonzerte / Sinfonia Concertante":Violinkonzerte
H7a Nr. 1 & 3;Sinfonia concertante H1: 105 (Kalafusz,
Gleissner, Lencses, Herder, RSO Stuttgart, Neville Marriner/
1987 / 1988)
+6.CD "Cellokonzerte":Cellokonzerte Nr. 1 & 2 (Miklos
Perenyi, Franz Liszt Kammerorchester, Janos Rolla / 1985)
+7.CD "Bläserkonzerte":Trompetenkonzert Es-Dur H7e: 1;
Oboenkonzert H7g: C1;Konzert für 2 Hörner Es-Dur H7d: 2
(R. Friedrich, Lencses, A. Friedrich, Marusza, Wiener Akademie,
RSO Stuttgart, Franz Liszt Kammerorchester, Martin Haselböck,
Neville Marriner, Janos Rolla / 1987-1994)
+8.CD "Orgelkonzerte":Orgelkonzerte H14 Nr. 11 & 12, H18 Nr.
1, 5,8 (Gabor Lehotka, Budapest Strings, Karoly Botvay / 1988)
+9.CD "Streichquartette":Streichquartette Nr. 17, 67, 77
(Kodaly Quartett)
+10.CD "Messe / Kantaten":Messe Nr. 14 "Harmoniemesse";
Kantaten "Miseri noi, misera patria" & "Berenice cha fai"
(Tokody, Takacs, Gulyas, Gregor, Schmiege, Bratislava PO,
Capella Coloniensis, Janos Ferencsik, Hans-Martin Linde)
+11.& 12.CD: Die Schöpfung (Seidl, Elsner, Volle,
Staatsphilharmonie Krakau, Roland Bader / 1992)

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Joseph-Haydn-1732-1809-Joseph-Haydn-Capriccio-Edition/hnum/4547837

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 18, 2013, 06:01:21 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 18, 2013, 04:10:54 PM
Yes, #37 IS in the Entwurf Katalog. If you have the New Grove Haydn you will find on page 96, the 5th entry down from the top of the page. In the column titled "Authentication" it says 'EK'. In Volume 1 of Robbins-Landon there is a picture of the title page and the caption says "Title page of the earliest recorded MS (manuscript) of a Haydn symphony - No. 37 - dated 1758; Schwarzenburg Archives, Krumau" :)

8)

Interesting information because, as I said before, I have read explicitly stated that that 1758 score is a copy, not a manuscript. Or am I misunderstanding "recorded MS" and it's actually a copy of a manuscript?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 18, 2013, 06:35:15 PM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on February 18, 2013, 06:01:21 PM
Interesting information because, as I said before, I have read explicitly stated that that 1758 score is a copy, not a manuscript. Or am I misunderstanding "recorded MS" and it's actually a copy of a manuscript?

I wrote it down exactly as it says in the book because I'm not entirely sure exactly what it means either. To me, it means that it is a copy made by a copyist, probably in Haydn's employ. Not in his handwriting. Manuscript only means 'handwritten', an autograph is handwritten also but that contains the implication that it was handwritten by the composer. There are more than one manuscript of nearly every symphony, surely Haydn didn't write them all himself? :) I'm not sure (as I often am not) exactly what you are trying to say here. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 18, 2013, 06:54:40 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 18, 2013, 06:35:15 PM
I'm not sure (as I often am not) exactly what you are trying to say here. :-\

Well, approximately the same expressed by you:

QuoteI wrote it down exactly as it says in the book because I'm not entirely sure exactly what it means either.

I would like to know what exactly means "recorded MS". :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on February 18, 2013, 06:58:04 PM

This is possibly idle speculation--but can we be certain there weren't symphonies before #1? meaning compositions from his early days which Haydn didn't think enough of to conserve, or even to mention? That #1 is not "the first symphony I wrote" but "the earliest symphony of mine which I think is actually worth listening to"?

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on February 18, 2013, 06:54:40 PM

I would like to know what exactly means "recorded MS". :)

I think it merely means "earliest manuscript of which we know"--and could apply to either one written by Haydn or one written by a copyist.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 18, 2013, 07:07:33 PM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on February 18, 2013, 06:54:40 PM
Well, approximately the same expressed by you:

I would like to know what exactly means "recorded MS". :)

Well, if this statement goes by every standard of music history writing, then it means that this is a handwritten score (actually the first and second violin parts) written by a copyist.

"This manuscript comes from a collection that was originally pout together by Count Festetics. The symphonies include many holograph (handwritten) additions. It is of decisive importance because on the title page of each one, Haydn himself added numbers which appear from every standpoint to be chronological. ....... as far as the first 16 numbers that have survived, they are clearly numbered by Haydn himself. The principal fact that catches the eye on the list (opposite) is that the symphony marked as "1" is the same one that Haydn described to Griesinger as being his first..." etc etc.

The one marked "2", it goes without saying, is the one we now call #37, and it is dated 1758, thus the dating of #1 to ~1757.

Bedtime. More tomorrow? :)
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on February 19, 2013, 01:16:30 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on February 18, 2013, 11:26:48 AM
After spending yesterday and most of today listening to the Fey recordings of the symphonies I now know two things:

1. His recordings are better than I thought but still will not supplant my favorites.
2. I greatly prefer Haydn's chamber music to the symphonies.

#2 is true of all composers, though.

:)

He's certainly one of my favourites in 83. Did you listen to that one?

On the negative side, apart from the sound, what I don't like is the way in the fast movements the accents are so strong and the dynamic contrasts are so marked. I get bored with the constant high level of heady excitement. Fey's 104 is a good example I think. Maybe the fact that 83 is a minor key symphony helps, I don't know.

By the way, someone ha just uploaded an excellent 95 from Kocsis on symphonyshare.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 19, 2013, 01:37:49 AM

Symphony No. 7 (19) in C major "Le midi"

Adam Fischer & Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra

The wanderings of our hero continue.

1. Adagio-Allegro: He's now employed in the service of a count and secretly in love with his lovely daughter. The whole count's gang of friends and servants is preparing to go hunting. In the middle of the hustle and bustle the young lady, foreseeing danger, asks her father permission to stay at home pretending illness, but the count, strongly seconded by the wanderer, reply that the weather outside is glorious and it'll cure any ill she might have. The horn calls for departure. After some more discussion and a second horn call, they all leave.

2. Recitativo. Adagio: Out in the heavy sun, the young lady and the wanderer have sought refuge in an isolated corner of the forest. There, under the trees and birds, their impossible idyll develops. He begs her to elope with him but she resists: much as she loves him, she can't desert her filial duty and leave her father. They resolve to love each eternally but Platonically.

3. Minuetto & Trio: The hunt is over. Back in the palace, there is merriment and dance. Everyone is happy but two: the young lady who has retired in her room, now ill for good, and the wanderer, who walks around the hall, alone and frustrated.

4. Finale. Allegro: The wanderer resigns his post with the count and joins the hunters as they leave the palace. Once more, the open sky, the forest, the hills and the whole world out there await him and he receives them with overwhelming joy.

Symphony No 8 (20) in G major "Le soir"

(same forces)

1. Allegro molto: After many more wanderings, the hero arrives at an inn just in time for dinner.

2. Andante: The lovely daughter of the inkeeper entreats him to settle down there, marry her and live a tranquil life together. Tired of his wanderings, he concedes.

3. Menuetto & Trio: Many years have passed since their wedding. He's now a solid bourgeois with a respectable family. Yet, his dreams at night are haunted by a vision of his ~~morning~~ youth: a mysterious and solemn procession of animals in the middle of the forest.

4. La tempesta. Presto: One night, right in the middle of the storm, his old wandering self suddenly awakens. He remembers his unrequited love for the count's daughter. He leaps from his bed, packs a few things and off to the dark road he is. Once a wanderer, always a wanderer.

(Talk about Romanticizing, but these thoughts have spontaneously arose in my mind after a few bars of every movement. :D )

This trilogy should be listed among the greatest tone poems ever written. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 19, 2013, 02:04:16 AM

Quote from: Bogey on February 18, 2013, 05:39:14 AM
First movement of the 4th. Impressions welcomed! :)

Symphony no. 4 (5) in D major

Adam Fischer & Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra

1st movement: Hey, where's the soloist? After the orchestral introduction, one would expect it coming. It takes a little time to realize that actually the introduction is the main topic of the movement. :)

2nd movement: Sadness is its middle name...

3rd movement: Well, it started as a concerto missing the soloist, it ends with a menuetto missing the trio; add to this the missing of winds in the Andante and to me is now clear --- it's all about absence, something (or perhaps someone?) is deeply missed physically, yet vividly present in the heart / mind.

Heard melodies are sweet, but those unheard
Are sweeter.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 19, 2013, 02:17:09 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on February 18, 2013, 05:40:33 AM
No. 37, probably the second or even the first Haydn symphony conserved. :)

Symphony no. 37 (2)

Christopher Hogwood & The Academy of Ancient Music

Sinfonia festiva? :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 19, 2013, 02:27:15 AM

These lines by Leo K., although posted in the Mahler thread, are relevant also here, methinks.

Quote from: Leo K. on February 16, 2013, 06:50:50 AM
On the other hand, Mahler's music appears to be a continuation of Joseph Haydn, a gigantic-romantic version of Papa. Mahler's need to sweep up folk song, military musical recollections and country dances to form his symphonies put him surprisingly close to Haydn who, in his Symphony No. 100, was collecting earlier artifacts for similar reasons. Haydn brought "Turkish" military sounds to his London audience to spice music already livened by Austrian country dances and courtly musical references.

In both there is a sense of singing melodic line — of melodies rooted in song, as in Mahler's early symphonies, or in the chamber music of Haydn's. Another is a penchant for wresting substantial music from concise thematic ideas, for "developing" brief motifs in consequential ways. Finally, the works of each composer often entail arresting musical dramas. and anxieties, and this it does for many, many people. Mahler's own compositions — his great symphonies and song cycles — seem, on first consideration, quite unlike those of Haydn. In contrast to the Classical proportions, demeanor and economy of Haydn's work, Mahler created on an expansive scale and ventured extremes of musical expression. But for all their superficial differences, the music of Haydn and Mahler displays a triumphant conclusion only at the end of a long and surprising musical journey.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 19, 2013, 04:15:29 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 18, 2013, 06:58:04 PM
This is possibly idle speculation--but can we be certain there weren't symphonies before #1? meaning compositions from his early days which Haydn didn't think enough of to conserve, or even to mention? That #1 is not "the first symphony I wrote" but "the earliest symphony of mine which I think is actually worth listening to"?

I think it merely means "earliest manuscript of which we know"--and could apply to either one written by Haydn or one written by a copyist.

Not necessarily idle, except in the sense that there is no definitive answer. However, circumstantially it would be difficult to postulate an earlier symphony because previous to the Fürnburg-Morzin gig, he had no one to write one for. And given his straitened financial circumstances at the time, I would guess that his musical efforts were being expended on a combination of compositional practice for himself and keyboard lessons for his students. Which are the same thing, of course, and equal the early keyboard sonatas. Plus a little church music for that job too. Probably the closest he came were some of the bigger divertimentos. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 19, 2013, 04:16:46 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 19, 2013, 02:17:09 AM
Symphony no. 37 (2)

Christopher Hogwood & The Academy of Ancient Music

Sinfonia festiva? :D

Indeed it is!

You are such a hopeless Romantic, my friend. :D

Entertaining though. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 19, 2013, 04:28:17 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 19, 2013, 04:16:46 AM
You are such a hopeless Romantic, my friend. :D

In the last days yes, I've been in a very Romantic frame of mind, probably because of my current reading:

Quote from: Florestan on February 17, 2013, 11:56:29 PM
(http://i2.best-price.ro/images/preturi/big_new/0/3/8/429038.jpg)

A Romanian translation of Ricarda Huch's monumental two-volume work on German literary Romanticism.

Vol. 1: Die Blütezeit der Romantik (The Blossoming of Romanticism)
Vol. 2: Ausbreitung und Verfall der Romantik (Expansion and Decline of Romanticism)

An excellent dissection of the mind of the German Romantics. Although limited to literature, philosophy and science, the insights and comments can be fruitfully applied on musical philosophy as well.

And in respect with music I can only paraphrase Francis Bacon: A little ~~philosophy~~ Romanticism inclineth man's mind to ~~atheism~~ denigrate Classicism; but depth in ~~philosophy~~ Romanticism bringeth men's minds about to ~~religion~~ exalt Classicism. ;D

Quote
Entertaining though. 0:)

I aim to please. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 19, 2013, 04:40:59 AM

Symphony no. 29 (39) in E major

Christopher Hogwood & The Academy of Ancient Music (recorded live at Eszterhaza Palace)

Nice joke there. They passed back and forth the melody in the Andante that many times that it was lost somewhere on the road and couldn't find its way back home in time for the Trio. :D

The only quibble I have with this performance is that the Allegro di molto is rather an Allegretto. Judge for yourself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h75BwSD-EtA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h75BwSD-EtA)

But they more than make up for it in the spirited Presto.

Is anyone familiar with this book by none other than... the Hurwitzer himself?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41HDTjgB0UL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg)

The title at least is typically Hurwitz-ish, yet not far off the mark. :)

To whom it might concern: I modified my signature. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 19, 2013, 04:46:28 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 19, 2013, 04:40:59 AM
Symphony no. 29 (39) in E major

Christopher Hogwood & The Academy of Ancient Music (recorded live at Eszterhaza Palace)

Nice joke there. They passed back and forth the melody in the Andante that many times that it was lost somewhere on the road and couldn't find its way back home in time for the Trio. :D

The only quibble I have with this performance is that the Allegro di molto is rather an Allegretto. Judge for yourself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h75BwSD-EtA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h75BwSD-EtA)

But they more than make up for it in the spirited Presto.

Is anyone familiar with this book by none other than... the Hurwitzer himself?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41HDTjgB0UL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU01_.jpg)

The title at least is typically Hurwitz-ish, yet not far off the mark. :)

Nice little work there. Note my notes on it in the blog post from last evening. Always a favorite. In the later than original printed versions, editors have commented in the notes that the Allegro di molto surely must be wrong. But it is rather unfortunate that editors have emended scores based on what they think it should be, and actually obliterated some of Haydn's original intentions. My guess is that if the tempo marking can't be made to work out as such, then that was intentional on Haydn's part and he was messing around with the players and laughing in his sleeve. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 19, 2013, 04:50:38 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 19, 2013, 04:46:28 AM
Nice little work there. Note my notes on it in the blog post from last evening.

Your notes, sir, are precisely the reason I jumped to it.

Quote
Always a favorite. In the later than original printed versions, editors have commented in the notes that the Allegro di molto surely must be wrong.

The reason being... ?

Quote
But it is rather unfortunate that editors have emended scores based on what they think it should be, and actually obliterated some of Haydn's original intentions. My guess is that if the tempo marking can't be made to work out as such, then that was intentional on Haydn's part and he was messing around with the players and laughing in his sleeve. :)

Or messing around with editors: You rascals, if I wrote Allegro di molto that's exactly how it should be played and if it doesn't make sense to you or your small time orchestras then come to Eszterhaza and hear it as it should be. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 19, 2013, 05:56:03 AM

E. T. A. Hoffmann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._T._A._Hoffmann)'s assessment of Haydn's music:

The expression of a child-like, serene mind, governs Haydn's compositions. His symphonies lead us to endlessly green pastures, to a merry, colorful throng of happy people. Dancing youths and maidens are floating by; laughing children, hiding behind trees and rose bushes, throw flowers at each other. A life full of love, of bliss, like before original sin, in eternal youth; no suffering, no pain, only a sweet, melancholy longing for a figure that floats by in the distance, at dusk, and does not come nearer, does not vanish, and, as long as it is present, it does not turn into night, since it is the evening glow, itself, in which mountains and fields are steeped.

Maybe. But then again maybe not.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 19, 2013, 05:59:24 AM

That E.T.A. Hoffman: what a romantic!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 19, 2013, 06:01:09 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on February 19, 2013, 05:03:29 AM
I put in Bruggens vol. 1 of the Sturm und Drang symphonies, including #26. Gurn you have this as #12. It is a fantastic work, especially the first movement with the syncopated violin theme. Movement #2 is hard to bring off, imo, with the quarter note ostinato making demands on the ensemble in order to avoid a bad effect.

This work came so early, but it is included in the S&D works?

Wait a minute, Gurn, you wrote this "some points to definitely not miss are #12(26) in E major" but on the Bruggen disc #26, and most others I have, list this as the D Minor work. ???

Haydn numbers are a mess.

;)

EDIT: Okay, I misunderstood your numbering. :-[

Sorry for the digression.

No, #12 in E major is actually Symphony #26. Hoboken 26(46) (Lamentation) in d minor is the one you are talking about. Yes, it is a S & D work, not composed until 1768.

Digression is good, it makes the day go by. :D I am still looking for a solution to referring to these works. I really like the New Chronology system, but it doesn't relate to anything unless you include the Hob # along with it. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 19, 2013, 06:02:06 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 19, 2013, 05:56:03 AM
E. T. A. Hoffmann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._T._A._Hoffmann)'s assessment of Haydn's music:

The expression of a child-like, serene mind, governs Haydn's compositions. His symphonies lead us to endlessly green pastures, to a merry, colorful throng of happy people. Dancing youths and maidens are floating by; laughing children, hiding behind trees and rose bushes, throw flowers at each other. A life full of love, of bliss, like before original sin, in eternal youth; no suffering, no pain, only a sweet, melancholy longing for a figure that floats by in the distance, at dusk, and does not come nearer, does not vanish, and, as long as it is present, it does not turn into night, since it is the evening glow, itself, in which mountains and fields are steeped.

Maybe. But then again maybe not.

ETA Hoffmann was a major dipshit. The Hurwitzer of his day. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 19, 2013, 06:11:17 AM

The more I read about the (German) Romantics, the more I like them. That we live today in a world shaped by Romanticism is one of the greatest misconceptions in all cultural history. Our world could not be further from being a Romantic one, in the true sense of the word. Haydn's world was a thousand times more Romantic than ours. ;D

This quote from Ludwig Tieck (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Tieck), for instance:

He who does not love a flower, has lost all love and fear of God.

I wonder how many of our contemporaries would subscribe --- others than deep ecology crackpots, that is. ;D

(Digressions, digressions... ;D )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 19, 2013, 06:22:46 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 19, 2013, 06:11:17 AM
The more I read about the (German) Romantics, the more I like them. That we live today in a world shaped by Romanticism is one of the greatest misconceptions in all cultural history. Our world could not be further from being a Romantic one, in the true sense of the word. Haydn's world was a thousand times more Romantic than ours. ;D

I don't like anyone who bends history to fit with currently held conceptions. Hoffmann and other Romantics did that routinely and then rejected much of the past based on it not living up to the standards they have created for their present.

QuoteThis quote from Ludwig Tieck (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Tieck), for instance:

He who does not love a flower, has lost all love and fear of God.

I wonder how many of our contemporaries would subscribe.

(Digressions, digressions... ;D )

I would subscribe to most of it. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 19, 2013, 06:26:31 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 19, 2013, 06:22:46 AM
I don't like anyone who bends history to fit with currently held conceptions. Hoffmann and other Romantics did that routinely and then rejected much of the past based on it not living up to the standards they have created for their present.

Gurn, I'm sorry but... this is simply not true. If anything, "Hoffmann and other Romantics" revered a lot of the past --- the only problem being it was a past they invented rather than discovered. ;D

Quote
I would subscribe to most of it. 0:)

Quod erat demonstrandum: Haydn's world was a Romantic one. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on February 19, 2013, 06:37:02 AM

So I couldn't resist and went back to No.1.

Alas I have only Dorati recording and both Prestos are destroyed with so hated by me "einekleine" approach to the classical style. I'm sure they should be played with much more energy and with much more contrasted juxtaposing of diffrent kinds of instruments, in the way we imagine good played Rossini music (good played Rossini music is Rossini music played by Capella Coloniensis under Gabriele Ferro).

Of course I'm not quite sure if the HIP performances are any better - we are just starting to understand the XVIII century style and still imagine it as something similar rather to the rococo art not to the enlightenment literature.

But even most brilliantly performed Prestos have no chance to brilliant beside this unbelievable Andante. Here is this special gift of Haydn I have written about several days ago. Music just can't be better, more perfect, more philosophical, as it reaches the main (as someone said) purpose of the philosophy - stopping the run of the time. I'm sure he had thought about it deeply and for years before he wrote it. This is without any doubt not a kind of the nice melodic improvisation but the summa of all his experiences.

What a beginning!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 19, 2013, 06:38:13 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 19, 2013, 06:26:31 AM
Gurn, I'm sorry but... this is simply not true. If anything, "Hoffmann and other Romantics" revered a lot of the past --- the only problem being it was a past they invented rather than discovered. ;D

Quod erat demonstrandum: Haydn's world was a Romantic one. ;D

And that differs in what significant way? If you don't like the reality that you see, invent a new one. :) I've met some people like that, so I can assume that Romanticism lives!?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 19, 2013, 06:40:21 AM

Quote from: mszczuj on February 19, 2013, 06:37:02 AM
So I couldn't resist and went back to No.1.

Alas I have only Dorati recording and both Prestos are destroyed with so hated by me "einekleine" approach to the classical style. I'm sure they should be played with much more energy and with much more contrasted juxtaposing of diffrent kinds of instruments, in the way we imagine good played Rossini music (good played Rossini music is Rossini music played by Capella Coloniensis under Gabriele Ferro).

Of course I'm not quite sure if the HIP performances are any better - we are just starting to understand the XVIII century style and still imagine it as something similar rather to the rococo art not to the enlightenment literature.

But even most brilliantly performed Prestos have no chance to brilliant beside this unbelievable Andante. Here is this special gift of Haydn I have written about several days ago. Music just can't be better, more perfect, more philosophical as it reaches the main (as someone said) purpose of the philosophy - stopping the run of the time. I'm sure he had thought about it deeply and for years before he wrote it. This is without any doubt not a kind of the nice melodic improvisation but the summa of all his experiences.

What a beginning!

Nice post!

You can hear #1 with Adam Fischer & The Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra on Youtube.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 19, 2013, 06:42:08 AM

Quote from: mszczuj on February 19, 2013, 06:37:02 AM
So I couldn't resist and went back to No.1.

Alas I have only Dorati recording and both Prestos are destroyed with so hated by me "einekleine" approach to the classical style. I'm sure they should be played with much more energy and with much more contrasted juxtaposing of diffrent kinds of instruments, in the way we imagine good played Rossini music (good played Rossini music is Rossini music played by Capella Coloniensis under Gabriele Ferro).

Of course I'm not quite sure if the HIP performances are any better - we are just starting to understand the XVIII century style and still imagine it as something similar rather to the rococo art not to the enlightenment literature.

But even most brilliantly performed Prestos have no chance to brilliant beside this unbelievable Andante. Here is this special gift of Haydn I have written about several days ago. Music just can't be better, more perfect, more philosophical as it reaches the main (as someone said) purpose of the philosophy - stopping the run of the time. I'm sure he had thought about it deeply and for years before he wrote it. This is without any doubt not a kind of the nice melodic improvisation but the summa of all his experiences.

What a beginning!

An ideal demonstration that the music can transcend the performance. I think Dorati did as well as he could, given what was known about Classical performance practice at that time. Certainly he did well enough to transmit Haydn's intentions and the beauty of his design and execution. I think you would like to hear Goodman in that piece especially. A lovely performance. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 19, 2013, 06:44:06 AM

It would be, alas! a wee bit Romantic to expect that Doráti might have approached "Papa" as conductors in our own day do . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 19, 2013, 06:54:43 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 19, 2013, 06:38:13 AM
If you don't like the reality that you see, invent a new one.

Romanticism in a nutshell. :D

But then again: "One doesn't see well except with the heart. The essential is invisible for the eye." --- Antoine de Saint-Exupery ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 19, 2013, 07:00:04 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 19, 2013, 06:54:43 AM
Romanticism in a nutshell. :D

But then again: "One doesn't see well except with the heart. The essential is invisible for the eye." --- Antoine de Saint-Exupery ;D

Hard to encapsulate it better than that! Of course, since my earliest days, this has been my downfall; I am a modern Thomas... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 19, 2013, 07:01:24 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 19, 2013, 06:44:06 AM
It would be, alas! a wee bit Romantic to expect that Doráti might have approached "Papa" as conductors in our own day do . . . .

I fear so, yes. However, kudos to him in so many ways for bringing Haydn out of the closet. Not just the symphonies but the operas too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 19, 2013, 07:15:22 AM

Yes: we should not fail to give Doráti the great credit which he richly deserves.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 19, 2013, 07:52:02 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 19, 2013, 07:00:04 AM
since my earliest days, this has been my downfall; I am a modern Thomas... :)

Nothing wrong with that, AFAIC.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 19, 2013, 07:53:22 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 19, 2013, 07:01:24 AM
I fear so, yes. However, kudos to him in so many ways for bringing Haydn out of the closet. Not just the symphonies but the operas too. :)

Quote from: karlhenning on February 19, 2013, 07:15:22 AM
Yes: we should not fail to give Doráti the great credit which he richly deserves.

Quote from: sanantonio on February 19, 2013, 07:21:30 AM
Dorati should be applauded heartily for recording ALL the Haydn symphonies at a time when the idea of doing that certainly not commonplace among other conductors or record labels.

+ 1.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 19, 2013, 08:54:17 AM

Quote from: E. T. A. HoffmannThe expression of a child-like, serene mind, governs Haydn's compositions. His symphonies lead us to endlessly green pastures, to a merry, colorful throng of happy people. Dancing youths and maidens are floating by; laughing children, hiding behind trees and rose bushes, throw flowers at each other. A life full of love, of bliss, like before original sin, in eternal youth; no suffering, no pain[...]

Well, this is rigorously true about one my favorite Haydn works: the Concerto for two lire organizzate, two violins, two violas, cello, doublebass, and two horns in C major Hob VIIh :1

1st movement: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOPtU0k7Zaw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOPtU0k7Zaw)

2nd movement: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvLeuLrdhog (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvLeuLrdhog)

3rd movement: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH71dxtzNEo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH71dxtzNEo)

If anyone knows of a more pure and innocent music, please let me know, but I strongly doubt it. This is indeed music from before the original sin.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on February 19, 2013, 09:34:31 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 19, 2013, 05:56:03 AM
E. T. A. Hoffmann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._T._A._Hoffmann)'s assessment of Haydn's music:

The expression of a child-like, serene mind, governs Haydn's compositions. His symphonies lead us to endlessly green pastures, to a merry, colorful throng of happy people. Dancing youths and maidens are floating by; laughing children, hiding behind trees and rose bushes, throw flowers at each other. A life full of love, of bliss, like before original sin, in eternal youth; no suffering, no pain, only a sweet, melancholy longing for a figure that floats by in the distance, at dusk, and does not come nearer, does not vanish, and, as long as it is present, it does not turn into night, since it is the evening glow, itself, in which mountains and fields are steeped.

Maybe. But then again maybe not.

This reminds me of some of the things that his earliest biographers said about Haydn the man, Dies emphasises Haydn's cheerfulness. That comment "like before original sin" reminds me of how Griesinger talks about Haydn's naive modesty, at least when he was younger. I suspect that all this is part of some sort of myth making designed to widen the gap between Haydn from Beethoven.

What's maybe most surprising is that Hoffman doesn't talk about the sense of being full of new ideas that I think is really prominent in Haydn. Maybe Hoffman talks about that elsewhere.

The comment about Mahler that someone else posted is interesting. There's a sense of readiness to experiment with new things that I hear in the greatest Mahler, 3, 7 and maybe 9. That's not unlike the way that Haydn's music is often brimming over with ideas.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on February 19, 2013, 09:40:04 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 19, 2013, 06:42:08 AM
An ideal demonstration that the music can transcend the performance.

Fortunately I always use doublehear while listening to the Classical Era Music without performing to many other activities. I hear actual performance and simultaneously the other one with phrases far more expressive because they use some kind of rubato which is precisely dependent on their position in tonal labirynth, on their place in the row of other phrases and on other aspects of their meaning.

Quote
I think Dorati did as well as he could, given what was known about Classical performance practice at that time. Certainly he did well enough to transmit Haydn's intentions and the beauty of his design and execution.

Of course he is the great conductor and one of the greatest Haydn masters ever. May be even the greatest. I really think so. I didn't mean to despise him in any way. But it was 1972 and all wanted to play music of the Classical Era as if it was music of the Neoclassical Era. And for music of 1750s it was even more destructive than for 1790s. We still tend to think about these composers and listeners as if they were unexperienced beginners who build something absolutely new ex nihilo after the death of the great musical tradition of Baroque. But it was the world of great spiritual movement, this symphony is contemporary to Candide and to the beginnings of Tristram Shandy, it is probably naive to think that the listeners were not so refined in this time as were the readers.

Quote
I think you would like to hear Goodman in that piece especially. A lovely performance. :)

Yes, I hope so. Alas I have no time and funds to begin this exploration now. But some day my time will come.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 19, 2013, 09:41:59 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on February 19, 2013, 09:34:31 AM
This reminds me of some of the things that his earliest biographers said about Haydn the man, Dies emphasises Haydn's cheerfulness. That comment "like before original sin" reminds me of how Griesinger talks about Haydn's naive modesty, at least when he was younger. I suspect that all this is part of some sort of myth making designed to widen the gap between Haydn from Beethoven.

Or, you know, maybe the two men had markedly different characters.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 19, 2013, 10:18:31 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on February 19, 2013, 09:34:31 AM
This reminds me of some of the things that his earliest biographers said about Haydn the man, Dies emphasises Haydn's cheerfulness. That comment "like before original sin" reminds me of how Griesinger talks about Haydn's naive modesty, at least when he was younger. I suspect that all this is part of some sort of myth making designed to widen the gap between Haydn from Beethoven.

What's maybe most surprising is that Hoffman doesn't talk about the sense of being full of new ideas that I think is really prominent in Haydn. Maybe Hoffman talks about that elsewhere.

No, he doesn't talk about it elsewhere. Don't be fooled by the pleasant tone of Hoffmann's statement; he is making every possible effort to denigrate Haydn compared to Beethoven and also Mozart (which doesn't show up in this quote, but does in several others). He used Haydn as a comparison because Haydn was the most popular composer in the world at that time, and he is saying nothing more nor less that Haydn was a lightweight compared to Beethoven and a little bit of late Mozart. The unfortunate thing is that he succeeded in this effort and Haydn slipped into relative obscurity for over 100 years afterwards. As I said to Florestan earlier, if the facts don't suit your purpose, just make some up. >:(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 19, 2013, 10:45:24 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on February 19, 2013, 10:32:28 AM
Well, Hoffmann is mainly known for his tales.

:)

:) True enough!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on February 19, 2013, 11:10:34 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 19, 2013, 10:18:31 AM
No, he doesn't talk about it elsewhere. Don't be fooled by the pleasant tone of Hoffmann's statement; he is making every possible effort to denigrate Haydn compared to Beethoven and also Mozart (which doesn't show up in this quote, but does in several others). He used Haydn as a comparison because Haydn was the most popular composer in the world at that time, and he is saying nothing more nor less that Haydn was a lightweight compared to Beethoven and a little bit of late Mozart. The unfortunate thing is that he succeeded in this effort and Haydn slipped into relative obscurity for over 100 years afterwards. As I said to Florestan earlier, if the facts don't suit your purpose, just make some up. >:(

8)

That's interesting. I think early (pre Hoffman maybe) critics valued Haydn's inventiveness.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 19, 2013, 11:34:44 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on February 19, 2013, 11:10:34 AM
That's interesting. I think early (pre Hoffman maybe) critics valued Haydn's inventiveness.

Absolutely right. Before the AMZ (Allgemeine musikalische Zeitung (General music journal)) was started ~1797, there really weren't a lot of critics out there, in Vienna anyway. The first few years of critiques in the AMZ were adoring of Haydn. Early times, the German critics centered around Berlin/Potsdam were critical because they were critical of all Austrians because they weren't straitlaced rule-following types, and Haydn was considered a ringleader. After 1780 or so, that changed, more because they changed than because he did.

The Brits loved everything about Haydn until post 1800, and that was little to do with him and much to do with external influences plus the English translation of The Creation.

The 'war' between Beethoven and Haydn (or their followers, more like) was bitter indeed on Beethoven's side, and like all 'musical wars' from that time, much hinged on being 'the winner'. Beethoven's followers, like Gluck's in 1760 Paris and Wagner's in 1870 Germany, were determined to vanquish all opposition to their man's musical supremacy. We can laugh at this now for the silly shit it clearly is, but for the intelligentsia of the times, it was damned near life and death! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 19, 2013, 11:37:39 AM

Sort of like Stockhausen's "supremacy" . . . .

(* shhhhh *)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 19, 2013, 04:50:35 PM

For anyone who has been looking for this disk (as I have) at a reasonable price, I just bought it from eBay brand new for $12.37. This is ~ half what it cost when it used to be available on AMP, which it isn't any longer. The seller claims to have 9 more copies available. This is reputedly an outstanding version of Haydn's only cantata mass.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/61NrPRl14oL_zpsc8f3dc6c.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 19, 2013, 11:22:49 PM

Haydn is like a child, for there is no knowing what he will do next. - John Keats

:D

I maintain that given the high esteem in which the Romantics held children and everything childlike, neither Hoffmann's nor Keats' remarks are in the least derogatory, on the contrary, they are intended as a compliment. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 20, 2013, 02:12:10 AM

Keats certainly means it for a compliment, meseems.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 20, 2013, 02:47:09 AM

Quote from: mszczuj on February 19, 2013, 06:37:02 AM
So I couldn't resist and went back to No.1. Alas I have only Dorati recording and both Prestos are destroyed with so hated by me "einekleine" approach to the classical style. I'm sure they should be played with much more energy

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 19, 2013, 06:42:08 AMI think you would like to hear Goodman in that piece especially. A lovely performance. :)

Goodman's is a lovely performance indeed but not that different in overall feel than Dorati (first movement timings are almost indentical). If mszczuj wants to hear a performance about as far from "einekleine" as possible, and with absolutely manic energy, he must hear Fey and the Heidelbergers 8)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/dec11/haydn14510fey.jpg)

The opening can be heard here, track 1 (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Joseph-Haydn-1732-1809-Symphonien-Nr-14510/hnum/2928812)

Fey takes the presto marking seriously. It's as bracing as a jolt of expresso.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 20, 2013, 04:09:31 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 20, 2013, 02:47:09 AM
Goodman's is a lovely performance indeed but not that different in overall feel than Dorati (first movement timings are almost indentical). If mszczuj wants to hear a performance about as far from "einekleine" as possible, and with absolutely manic energy, he must hear Fey and the Heidelbergers 8)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/dec11/haydn14510fey.jpg)

The opening can be heard here, track 1 (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Joseph-Haydn-1732-1809-Symphonien-Nr-14510/hnum/2928812)

Fey takes the presto marking seriously. It's as bracing as a jolt of expresso.

Sold, Sarge! Snaffled up the mp3 album based on that sample.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 20, 2013, 04:12:11 AM

Gurn, two questions for you, please.

1. I would have expected that the manuscripts of all the Eszterhazy symphonies be kept and found in the Eszterhaza library, for 2 logical reasons: (a) they were specifically written for Nikolaus, so he must have felt somehow their owner, and (b) for further use: if the prince wanted to hear a specific symphony several years after it was composed, he went to the library, pull out the score and asked for it to be performed. I infer from the difficulty in cataloguing them that this was not the case. Why?

2. Around 1810, how many of the symphonies were routinely performed in concerts in Austria and the German States?

TIA.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 20, 2013, 04:15:09 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on February 20, 2013, 04:05:30 AM
Espresso.

I just had a one.

;)

Please, please don't listen to Fey now. You might overdose ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 20, 2013, 04:17:45 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 20, 2013, 04:09:31 AM
Sold, Sarge! Snaffled up the mp3 album based on that sample.

Excellent, Karl. It should compliment your Fischer nicely.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 20, 2013, 04:20:36 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 20, 2013, 02:12:10 AM
Keats certainly means it for a compliment, meseems.

I'm not sure that it is in the same class as a similar quote from Tovey though, who specifically meant it in a musical way. That was his rather famous line about looking at the setup to a cadence or some such thing, and then challenging the reader to predict a bar or two before what it was going to cadence to and how it was going to be executed. Now, THAT was a compliment! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 20, 2013, 04:31:32 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 20, 2013, 04:12:11 AM
Gurn, two questions for you, please.

1. I would have expected that the manuscripts of all the Eszterhazy symphonies be kept and found in the Eszterhaza library, for 2 logical reasons: (a) they were specifically written for Nikolaus, so he must have felt somehow their owner, and (b) for further use: if the prince wanted to hear a specific symphony several years after it was composed, he went to the library, pull out the score and asked for it to be performed. I infer from the difficulty in cataloguing them that this was not the case. Why?

If he had kept them in the library in Eisenstadt he would have been ahead of the game, but he kept them in the opera/concert hall at Esterháza which burned to the ground in 1779 and took reams of scores along with it. Things like the baryton trios survived nicely, because they were kept... in the library. :-\ I don't know that this is the only reason, but it is A reason. He did have a lot of symphonies in the archives, but not near all of them. There were even a few things known to survive because they were out being worked on (copied, emended etc) at the time of the fire. It was a tragedy.

Quote2. Around 1810, how many of the symphonies were routinely performed in concerts in Austria and the German States?

TIA.

By 1810 I would say very few. In 1800 there were very many being performed, mostly the London's even then, which were still new works in Austria where they weren't published until the late 1790's. And some surprises, like #45 was still being performed. By 1810 though, tastes had changed irretrievably. Also, it should be pointed out that concert life in general was very nearly nil at that time (1805-1812) because of that pesky Napoleon. The people who liked to spend their money on music left town on the noon stage and took their $$$ with them. So it wasn't just Haydn who disappeared. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 20, 2013, 05:41:02 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 20, 2013, 04:31:32 AM
If he had kept them in the library in Eisenstadt he would have been ahead of the game, but he kept them in the opera/concert hall at Esterháza which burned to the ground in 1779 and took reams of scores along with it. Things like the baryton trios survived nicely, because they were kept... in the library. :-\ I don't know that this is the only reason, but it is A reason. He did have a lot of symphonies in the archives, but not near all of them. There were even a few things known to survive because they were out being worked on (copied, emended etc) at the time of the fire. It was a tragedy.

A tragedy indeed.

Quote
By 1810 I would say very few. In 1800 there were very many being performed, mostly the London's even then, which were still new works in Austria where they weren't published until the late 1790's. And some surprises, like #45 was still being performed. By 1810 though, tastes had changed irretrievably. Also, it should be pointed out that concert life in general was very nearly nil at that time (1805-1812) because of that pesky Napoleon. The people who liked to spend their money on music left town on the noon stage and took their $$$ with them. So it wasn't just Haydn who disappeared. :)

Well, that explains a lot in regards with that Hoffmann quote which, taken as an overall assessment of the whole symphonic output, is obviously false. But... He was born in 1776 in Konigsberg and from 1796 until 1810 (when he wrote the article which contains the quote) he lived in Glogau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C5%82og%C3%B3w), Poznan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pozna%C5%84), Plock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C5%82ock), Warsaw and Berlin, this latter city being under French occupation at the time. Now, I wonder how many Haydn symphonies did he have the chance of either hearing, or studying the score, all these years? A handful would be an overestimation. It is obvious that his judgment is based on a very limited number of works*. And as such, it becomes even more obvious that, far from denigrating Haydn, he was in fact appreciating and praising him. He more likely than not heard very little of Haydn's music yet he calls him "the most humane of all composers", "immortal" and "genius". Now, if this sounds to you like "he is making every possible effort to denigrate Haydn" then words have lost their meanings. As for "The unfortunate thing is that he succeeded in this effort and Haydn slipped into relative obscurity for over 100 years afterwards.", to attribute the "relative obscurity" of Haydn during the 19th century to Hoffmann's praising him in no uncertain terms is really weird. ;D

(* It must be noted that if Hoffmann heard #88, then his description of it is spot on. :) )

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 19, 2013, 11:34:44 AM
The 'war' between Beethoven and Haydn (or their followers, more like) was bitter indeed on Beethoven's side, and like all 'musical wars' from that time, much hinged on being 'the winner'. Beethoven's followers, like Gluck's in 1760 Paris and Wagner's in 1870 Germany, were determined to vanquish all opposition to their man's musical supremacy.

Come on, Gurn, do you really believe this? :o Where is the evidence for this war? Please give us some quotes from "Beethoven's followers"denigrating Haydn in order to exalt their master.

FWIW:

Quote from: WikipediaPerhaps the most important relationship in Beethoven's early life, and certainly the most famous, was the young pianist's tutorship under the Austrian composer Joseph Haydn. Beethoven studied with a number of composers and teachers in the period 1792–1795, including Antonio Salieri and Johann Georg Albrechtsberger. However, of all Beethoven's teachers, Haydn enjoyed the greatest reputation, having just returned from his first successful voyage to London. Possibly as early as his first trip to London in 1790, Haydn agreed to take on Beethoven as a student.

There is evidence that Haydn assigned his student composition exercises based on the Fux text Gradus ad Parnassum. During the course of the year, however, the relationship between the two men soured. According to contemporary accounts, the issue surfaced most notably upon the publication of Beethoven's first compositions, the Opus 1 piano trios. Wishing to assist the young composer, Haydn suggested that Beethoven include the phrase 'pupil of Haydn' underneath his name in order to garner advantage from Haydn's considerable fame. There is generally strong evidence of Haydn's goodwill toward Beethoven, including an interest in taking his pupil with him on his second London voyage, and the personal missives Haydn sent to Beethoven's early patron, Maximilian Francis of Austria, Elector of Cologne.

Beethoven, however, seems to have harbored ill-will toward Haydn during some of his life. At the suggestion that he include the phrase pupil of Haydn, Beethoven bristled. According to the account left by Ferdinand Ries, "Beethoven was unwilling to because, as he said, although he had some instruction from Haydn he had never learned anything from him." The bad feelings produced by the Opus 1 Trios were compounded upon their first performance. Haydn, present in the audience, is reported to have recommended against the publication of the C minor Trio (Opus 1, no. 3) since he suspected the music would not gain public acceptance. Beethoven interpreted this as an indication of Haydn's envy and jealousy.

Despite this, however, Beethoven and Haydn remained on generally good terms until Haydn's death in 1809. Beethoven attended the concert in honor of Haydn's 76th birthday, and it is said that he "knelt down before Haydn and fervently kissed the hands and forehead of his old teacher".

Haydn's towering reputation in Vienna made it hard for Beethoven to be openly antagonistic. However, Haydn was also genuinely admiring of Beethoven's compositions, a trait that usually succeeded in earning Beethoven's goodwill.

In his renowned biography of Beethoven, Maynard Solomon notes that, in his later years, "Beethoven unfailingly referred to his old master in terms of reverence, regarding him as the equal" of Mozart and Bach.

Please don't get me wrong: I'm not trying to be argumentative for argument's sake, but it seems to me that your hate of the Romantics is often based on misconceptions. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 20, 2013, 05:57:53 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 20, 2013, 05:41:02 AM
A tragedy indeed.

Well, that explains a lot in regards with that Hoffmann quote which, taken as an overall assessment of the whole symphonic output, is obviously false. But... He was born in 1776 in Konigsberg and from 1796 until 1810 (when he wrote the article which contains the quote) he lived in Glogau (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C5%82og%C3%B3w), Poznan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pozna%C5%84), Plock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C5%82ock), Warsaw and Berlin, this latter city being under French occupation at the time. Now, I wonder how many Haydn symphonies did he have the chance of either hearing, or studying the score, all these years? A handful would be an overestimation. It is obvious that his judgment is based on a very limited number of works*. And as such, it becomes even more obvious that, far from denigrating Haydn, he was in fact appreciating and praising him. He more likely than not heard very little of Haydn's music yet he calls him "the most humane of all composers", "immortal" and "genius". Now, if this sounds to you like "he is making every possible effort to denigrate Haydn" then words have lost their meanings. As for "The unfortunate thing is that he succeeded in this effort and Haydn slipped into relative obscurity for over 100 years afterwards.", to attribute the "relative obscurity" of Haydn during the 19th century to Hoffmann's praising him in no uncertain terms is really weird. ;D

(* It must be noted that if Hoffmann heard #88, then his description of it is spot on. :) )

Come on, Gurn, do you really believe this? :o Where is the evidence for this war? Please give us some quotes from "Beethoven's followers"denigrating Haydn in order to exalt their master.

FWIW:

Please don't get me wrong: I'm not trying to be argumentative for argument's sake, but it seems to me that your hate of the Romantics is often based on misconceptions. :)

I can't type in entire books, but I can recommend that you read "Chronicle & Works Vol 4 & 5" by Robbins-Landon if they are in your local library, or maybe his book on Beethoven (I have it (I think it is called "Documentary History"), haven't read it in a while but he quotes himself in the C & W book) and judge for yourself from the documents presented whether there was a war between the followers of the two. You will hum a different tune when you read the facts and no amount of making excuses will make it go away. I don't write things like that lightly, since I am as big a Beethoven fan as anyone.

Just because I don't care for Romantic philosophy, doesn't mean I am skewed enough to impute all sorts of things to them without more reasons than that I think they were slightly deranged. Everything I write here is based on facts that I have read in reputable books. As far as the war on Haydn (not just the Beethovenians) I haven't even scratched the surface. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 20, 2013, 06:02:18 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 20, 2013, 05:57:53 AM
I can't type in entire books, but I can recommend that you read "Chronicle & Works Vol 4 & 5" by Robbins-Landon if they are in your local library, or maybe his book on Beethoven (I have it (I think it is called "Documentary History"), haven't read it in a while but he quotes himself in the C & W book)

Duly noted, thanks.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 20, 2013, 07:14:39 AM

Gurn, I found this interesting reading that partially* supports your thesis:

Leon Botstein - The Demise of Philosophical Listening: Haydn in the 19th Century, in Haydn and His World (Elaine R. Sissman, ed.)

For anyone else interested it is online (with a few pages missing) here (scroll down to page 255): http://books.google.ro/books?id=omPuBn8pTFUC&pg=PA249&lpg=PA249&dq=haydn+his+world&source=bl&ots=1GCFjv4YZt&sig=vL5r3t0pt1uu6mKkqwgJAcjPSwY&hl=ro&sa=X&ei=yfQkUbTiE4rKsgbHyIGwDg&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=haydn%20his%20world&f=false (http://books.google.ro/books?id=omPuBn8pTFUC&pg=PA249&lpg=PA249&dq=haydn+his+world&source=bl&ots=1GCFjv4YZt&sig=vL5r3t0pt1uu6mKkqwgJAcjPSwY&hl=ro&sa=X&ei=yfQkUbTiE4rKsgbHyIGwDg&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=haydn%20his%20world&f=false)

* partially, because it argues that the image of Haydn in the 19th century can be summarized thus: venerable as a historical figure but irrelevant for the present. You stress the latter and gloss over the former. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 20, 2013, 07:26:13 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 20, 2013, 07:14:39 AM
Gurn, I found this interesting reading that partially* supports your thesis:

Leon Botstein - The Demise of Philosophical Listening: Haydn in the 19th Century, in Haydn and His World (Elaine R. Sissman, ed.)

For anyone else interested it is online (with a few pages missing) here (scroll down to page 255): http://books.google.ro/books?id=omPuBn8pTFUC&pg=PA249&lpg=PA249&dq=haydn+his+world&source=bl&ots=1GCFjv4YZt&sig=vL5r3t0pt1uu6mKkqwgJAcjPSwY&hl=ro&sa=X&ei=yfQkUbTiE4rKsgbHyIGwDg&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=haydn%20his%20world&f=false (http://books.google.ro/books?id=omPuBn8pTFUC&pg=PA249&lpg=PA249&dq=haydn+his+world&source=bl&ots=1GCFjv4YZt&sig=vL5r3t0pt1uu6mKkqwgJAcjPSwY&hl=ro&sa=X&ei=yfQkUbTiE4rKsgbHyIGwDg&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=haydn%20his%20world&f=false)

* partially, because it argues that the image of Haydn in the 19th century can be summarized thus: venerable as a historical figure but irrelevant for the present. You stress the latter and gloss over the former. :D

You're right about that, I did(do) gloss over the former, since it sounds more like lip service than true belief in Haydn's place as the sine qua non. Much the same as the attitude about Mozart as the automaton with the gift from god that allows him to use automatic writing to compose, instead of having to undergo the great struggles that real working artists have to do.

Perhaps I judge too harshly. They bring it on themselves with their asinine ideas. :D

PS - yes, that Bottstein article was very interesting. The entire bokk is quite commendable.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 20, 2013, 07:32:32 AM

As a diversion from the symphonies, what are his top 5 piano sonatas?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 20, 2013, 07:36:05 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 20, 2013, 07:32:32 AM
As a diversion from the symphonies, what are his top 5 piano sonatas?

Well, the E^b and the C sonatas must rank right up there (Hob. XVI/50 & 52)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 20, 2013, 07:40:24 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 20, 2013, 07:32:32 AM
As a diversion from the symphonies, what are his top 5 piano sonatas?

Well, today I would say that his Top 5 for me are;

Hob 16_52 Sonata #62 in Eb
Hob 16_32 Sonata #47 in b
Hob 16_49 Sonata #59 in Eb
Hob 16_46 Sonata #31 in Ab
Hob 16_20 Sonata #33 in c

Not necessarily in order, of course, that would be too much to attempt. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 20, 2013, 07:46:57 AM

Gurn, I cannot believe you scorn the C Major Sonata !!!! ; )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 20, 2013, 07:51:24 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 20, 2013, 07:46:57 AM
Gurn, I cannot believe you scorn the C Major Sonata !!!! ; )

Hmm, both pissy AND vinegary. :D I scorn nothing, sir. I try to span the entire range. I like that one (#49/59 in E^b) rather a lot. Tough choices to work 62 down into 5 when you like them all.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 20, 2013, 07:57:23 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on February 20, 2013, 07:48:09 AM
Speaking of sonatas, I have been reading this book:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51952ns5WFL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

According to Newman, there was quite a bit of disapproval of "the sonata," especially among the French, for most of the Classic period. There was a strongly held view that instrumental music in general, typified by the keyboard sonata, represented a decline from vocal music and this idea was expressed in no uncertain terms. In fact the author quotes Haydn as saying near the end of his life that he wished he had written more vocal music than so many "sonatas, quartets and symphonies."

I do not share this sentiment.

:)

That's a great book, I've recommended it several times. I am pretty sure that in that quote from Haydn he was referring to things like oratorios, masses and operas as opposed to Lieder and such. I could have stood a bit more of that, but underneath it all I am an instrumental lover too. What I really would have liked is for him to have had a different target audience for his keyboard works and trios, because late in life when he began to write for professionals and amateurs who were as good as professionals, he showed that he could kick some serious butt. Witness the Bartolozzi Trios and the Terese Jansen sonatas. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on February 20, 2013, 09:23:48 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 20, 2013, 07:32:32 AM
As a diversion from the symphonies, what are his top 5 piano sonatas?

I can say that the ones I've enjoyed the most over the past year or so are Hobs 2, 23, 19, 34, 37, 44 and 45. Mostly because I've come across interesting records.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on February 20, 2013, 04:20:08 PM

Quote from: Florestan on February 19, 2013, 01:37:49 AM
Symphony No. 7 (19) in C major "Le midi"

Adam Fischer & Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra

The wanderings of our hero continue.

1. Adagio-Allegro: He's now employed in the service of a count and secretly in love with his lovely daughter. The whole count's gang of friends and servants is preparing to go hunting. In the middle of the hustle and bustle the young lady, foreseeing danger, asks her father permission to stay at home pretending illness, but the count, strongly seconded by the wanderer, reply that the weather outside is glorious and it'll cure any ill she might have. The horn calls for departure. After some more discussion and a second horn call, they all leave.

2. Recitativo. Adagio: Out in the heavy sun, the young lady and the wanderer have sought refuge in an isolated corner of the forest. There, under the trees and birds, their impossible idyll develops. He begs her to elope with him but she resists: much as she loves him, she can't desert her filial duty and leave her father. They resolve to love each eternally but Platonically.

3. Minuetto & Trio: The hunt is over. Back in the palace, there is merriment and dance. Everyone is happy but two: the young lady who has retired in her room, now ill for good, and the wanderer, who walks around the hall, alone and frustrated.

4. Finale. Allegro: The wanderer resigns his post with the count and joins the hunters as they leave the palace. Once more, the open sky, the forest, the hills and the whole world out there await him and he receives them with overwhelming joy.

Symphony No 8 (20) in G major "Le soir"

(same forces)

1. Allegro molto: After many more wanderings, the hero arrives at an inn just in time for dinner.

2. Andante: The lovely daughter of the inkeeper entreats him to settle down there, marry her and live a tranquil life together. Tired of his wanderings, he concedes.

3. Menuetto & Trio: Many years have passed since their wedding. He's now a solid bourgeois with a respectable family. Yet, his dreams at night are haunted by a vision of his ~~morning~~ youth: a mysterious and solemn procession of animals in the middle of the forest.

4. La tempesta. Presto: One night, right in the middle of the storm, his old wandering self suddenly awakens. He remembers his unrequited love for the count's daughter. He leaps from his bed, packs a few things and off to the dark road he is. Once a wanderer, always a wanderer.

(Talk about Romanticizing, but these thoughts have spontaneously arose in my mind after a few bars of every movement. :D )

This trilogy should be listed among the greatest tone poems ever written. 8)

Thanks for getting the early symphonies of Haydn back on my mind! Nice thoughts. (and thanks for your mention of my post on the Mahler board)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 21, 2013, 01:04:49 AM

Piano Sonata in C major Hob XVI:50

Alfred Brendel live in Salzburg

I'm not sure what to make of it. The first movement seemed to me way too long (Brendel probably took all the repeats). The second movement I liked very much. The finale contains probably a joke, but I didn't get it. The whole thing seemed disconnected. I hate to say it but it doesn't hold a candle to Mozart's sonatas, not even to the early ones.

Piano Sonata in E flat major Hob XVI:52

Glenn Gould

Now we're talking! This gives a big lie to the 19th century gibberish. It has everything they missed in his music: fire, passion, longing.

Piano Sonata in F major Hob XVI:23

Vladimir Horowitz

That's great too! Festive fireworks, followed by a pensive stroll in the moonlit park and finally a joyful conversation over a glass of champagne.

Yep, that's it, Gurn is right: I am hopeless. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 21, 2013, 01:05:18 AM

Quote from: Leo K. on February 20, 2013, 04:20:08 PM
Thanks for getting the early symphonies of Haydn back on my mind! Nice thoughts. (and thanks for your mention of my post on the Mahler board)

You're welcome and thank you too.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 21, 2013, 01:29:28 AM

Symphony in G major Hob I:18 (3)

Christopher Hogwood & The Academy of Ancient Music

Not too much of a Sinfonia da chiesa, I think. The overall mood is far for solemn. Gorgeous horns in the second movement. Why didn't he write a fourth movement, I wonder? Perhaps Prince Nikolaus called for him: "Joseph, are you done with the new symphony?" "Just finished the minuetto, Your Highness!" "All right, let's hear the whole thing!" "But it's not finished yet!" "Don't worry, you'll have plenty of time to finish it later!" :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 21, 2013, 01:59:33 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 21, 2013, 01:29:28 AM
Symphony in G major Hob I:18 (3)
Why didn't he write a fourth movement, I wonder?

A three movement structure was common in the early history of the symphony. 1, 2, 4. 9, 10 12, 16, 17, 19, 25, 26, 27, 30 are also in three movements.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 21, 2013, 02:04:46 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 21, 2013, 01:59:33 AM
A three movement structure was common in the early history of the symphony. 1, 2, 4. 9, 10 12, 16, 17, 19, 25, 26, 27, 30 are also in three movements.

I'm aware of that, it's just that ending it with a minuet leaves me asking: ok, then what next? :) I don't have the same feeling when the final movement is an allegro.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on February 21, 2013, 03:02:46 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 21, 2013, 01:04:49 AM
Piano Sonata in C major Hob XVI:50

Alfred Brendel live in Salzburg

I'm not sure what to make of it. The first movement seemed to me way too long (Brendel probably took all the repeats). The second movement I liked very much. The finale contains probably a joke, but I didn't get it. The whole thing seemed disconnected. I hate to say it but it doesn't hold a candle to Mozart's sonatas, not even to the early ones.

Piano Sonata in E flat major Hob XVI:52

Glenn Gould

Now we're talking! This gives a big lie to the 19th century gibberish. It has everything they missed in his music: fire, passion, longing.

Piano Sonata in F major Hob XVI:23

Vladimir Horowitz

That's great too! Festive fireworks, followed by a pensive stroll in the moonlit park and finally a joyful conversation over a glass of champagne.

Yep, that's it, Gurn is right: I am hopeless. :)

I started to think seriously about Hob 23 Iwhen I heard this recording from Sokolov:

http://www.youtube.com/v/OZ3r_eL4EUg

Clearly it's so different from what you hear from Alan Curtis or Beghin. It made me wonder what exactly the function of this sonata was.

Your choice of word "champagne" is interesting -- I know someone who is very serious about exploring Haydn performance who is always looking for Champagne -- he doesn't like Bruggen, he does like Norrington etc.

Me I just wonder whether this tendency people have to want to see Haydn as writing elegant party music, chapagne, is all part of the conspiracy to trivialise his art. Like airheads at pea ut circuit private views. One of the reasons I'm interested in Harnoncourt and Bruggen and even possibly here (!) Sokolov is that they buck this trend. Norrington too in his own way, at least in some of the London symphonies he recorded with the Stuttgart orchestra (like 95).

Anyway, even if he wrote 23 for courts, dilettantes and ladies, I'm not sure anything follows about the best way to play it. This could be a case where the music's meaning goes beyond the author's intentions.

By the way, Hob 2 is particularly interesting. It's probably the earliest pice of Haydn which I really love. Again I have no idea why he wrote it. Sv Richter plays it well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on February 21, 2013, 02:56:38 PM

Quote from: Florestan on February 21, 2013, 02:04:46 AM
I'm aware of that, it's just that ending it with a minuet leaves me asking: ok, then what next? :) I don't have the same feeling when the final movement is an allegro.

I wrote this for the 4th back on the 15th:

Just spent the morning in the car with symphonies 4 (2) and 5 (4).

Symphony 4:

I like the "outburst" like feel of the first movement. This paired with the silent periods (3:06 and 4:57) followed by a charge of music was the highlight. My only problem with this composition was that the finale was a menuetto. Made it feel like the last chapter of a who-dunnit mystery was missing. Was this purposeful? Was it lost? Was it ripped up by a patron or Haydn himself? Papa needs a decent conspiracy theory like Mozart (death of) and Beethoven (Immortal Beloved), so I say we start here!

I totally agree with your take.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on February 22, 2013, 02:06:46 PM

Quote from: Florestan on February 21, 2013, 01:29:28 AM
Symphony in G major Hob I:18 (3)

Christopher Hogwood & The Academy of Ancient Music

Not too much of a Sinfonia da chiesa, I think. The overall mood is far for solemn. Gorgeous horns in the second movement. Why didn't he write a fourth movement, I wonder? Perhaps Prince Nikolaus called for him: "Joseph, are you done with the new symphony?" "Just finished the minuetto, Your Highness!" "All right, let's hear the whole thing!" "But it's not finished yet!" "Don't worry, you'll have plenty of time to finish it later!" :)

Before minuet found his place as the 3rd movement of the cycle of 4 movements it had been used as finale in the cycle of 4 as well as of 3 movements. Different forms of sonata cycle and of symphony were in use for the entire second half of the 18th century even if the last years of it were dominated by the fast-slow-minuet-fast order. But it always was just the best solution not the rule. Rules of the Classical Era were invented by the Romantics - composers of the Classical Era thought on their works.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2013, 04:08:53 PM

Quote from: mszczuj on February 22, 2013, 02:06:46 PM
Before minuet found his place as the 3rd movement of the cycle of 4 movements it had been used as finale in the cycle of 4 as well as of 3 movements. Different forms of sonata cycle and of symphony were in use for the entire second half of the 18th century even if the last years of it were dominated by the fast-slow-minuet-fast order. But it always was just the best solution not the rule. Rules of the Classical Era were invented by the Romantics - composers of the Classical Era thought on their works.

Absolutely right. Just like first real definition of 'sonata form' was written by Czerny well after Beethoven's death. Although it is also true that accustoming your ear to be prepared for a finale, even just a very short one, is a hard habit to break. As it happens though, this is what is playing on my player as I write this:

Hob 16_22 Sonata in E for Keyboard 3rd mvmt - Finale: Tempo di Menuetto (Hans Ludwig Hirsch - Hammerflügel)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 23, 2013, 04:50:43 PM

We were talking about this some days ago:

http://www.youtube.com/v/M1NpE-TNilo

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 23, 2013, 05:06:07 PM

Very nice, Gordo. Thanks,

Note in that one picture at the 9:50 mark that Sigi is holding his cello di spalla. I have seen pictures of it before but in this one he is surrounded by people holding more typical instruments, and so you get a better idea of the scale of it. Must be challenging to really show out on it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on February 24, 2013, 05:51:21 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on February 23, 2013, 06:36:17 PM
I hope La Petite Bande is able to continue. Recently there was an announcement that they had lost their government funding.

It truly is hard times these days, sad to hear that.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 25, 2013, 01:36:24 AM

Symphony in G minor Hob I:39 (38)

Adam Fischer & The Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra

In the presentation, Gurn spoke about coherence problems in this symphony, but I find none. It's like a contest between two worlds: a new one, stormy and passionate, which Haydn just discovered (within himself, most probably) and whose unknown territories he is eager to map, and the old one, gallant and tranquil which tries to hold him back. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 25, 2013, 01:42:36 AM

Hey Gurn, --- in post #3 in the blog you list Hob I:29 as being "early Eszterhazy", not S&D as you have it in post #6. Which is correct? :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 25, 2013, 01:53:16 AM

Symphony in F major Hob I:58 (42)

Adam Fischer & The Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra

If we hear this as a continuation of Hob I:39, it might look like in the first two movements the gallant world won him over, but the Trio whispers "Not quite yet" and the Finale yells "You wish, old lady!". :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 25, 2013, 04:21:22 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 25, 2013, 01:42:36 AM
Hey Gurn, --- in post #3 in the blog you list Hob I:29 as being "early Eszterhazy", not S&D as you have it in post #6. Which is correct? :)

Depends which book you read. That is one that the date has been moved around on several times, but the currently accepted date is after #39. While that doesn't make it (on its own) an S&D work, it was composed after that era had begun, so at least it merits being looked at both way, which is what I was trying to do.

Dating Haydn's early works is among the more frustrating exercises one can ever undertake. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 25, 2013, 09:53:08 AM

Gurn - I saw the Coin disc below (far left) posted by you in the 'listening thread', and became curious about 'how many' of these Lira Organizzate (LO) works were composed by Papa Joe & what recordings are available?

The 2 CDs that I own w/ the LO are also shown below - the middle one are many of the same performers although only one work w/ 2 lyres is used, i.e. Hob. II:32; the other CD w/ Hugo Ruf, I have as only a MP3 disc (as I recall, Tony S. sent me some LP notes which I put together & posted in one of the other threads).

Now, I also have 2 CDs of the Hob. II works (in the 20s & 30s) of the Notturni (Klocker & CC and Mozzafiato/L'Archibudelli), but neither of those recordings use the LO - Dave :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnetalLiradiNapolicover_zps80501d0f.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-TLXLbpW/0/S/Haydn_LireOrganizzate-S.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-MkNgVQT/0/S/Haydn_Lira_Ruf-S.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 25, 2013, 10:05:07 AM

Organizzate, ma non troppo, eh? ; )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 25, 2013, 10:15:46 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 25, 2013, 09:53:08 AM
Gurn - I saw the Coin disc below (far left) posted by you in the 'listening thread', and became curious about 'how many' of these Lira Organizzate (LO) works were composed by Papa Joe & what recordings are available?

The 2 CDs that I own w/ the LO are also shown below - the middle one are many of the same performers although only one work w/ 2 lyres is used, i.e. Hob. II:32; the other CD w/ Hugo Ruf, I have as only a MP3 disc (as I recall, Tony S. sent me some LP notes which I put together & posted in one of the other threads).

Now, I also have 2 CDs of the Hob. II works (in the 20s & 30s) of the Notturni (Klocker & CC and Mozzafiato/L'Archibudelli), but neither of those recordings use the LO - Dave :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnetalLiradiNapolicover_zps80501d0f.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-TLXLbpW/0/S/Haydn_LireOrganizzate-S.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-MkNgVQT/0/S/Haydn_Lira_Ruf-S.jpg)

Somewhere earlier on in this thread I posted a listing of all versions of these works (the notturni & the concerti) in both Naples & London versions. I actually am quite fond of the Klocker in the Naples version, although he uses a little barrel organ (IIRC) instead of Lira. On the Delirium disk, as you point out, they missed a fine opportunity to use the 2 Lira that they had specially made for them and played 2 of the 3 works in the London version, which is very odd given that everyone and their brother has done the London version already. ::)

Quote from: sanantonio on February 25, 2013, 09:58:33 AM
I listened to part of the disc Gurn posted about,

but did not much care for it. It sounded to my ears somewhat like an "omm-pah-pah" band.

???

Possibly an acquired taste. The London versions, which substitute an oboe and flute for the Lira are probably easier to listen to, although when you see/hear the original Naples versions, it is rather amazing what Haydn was able to accomplish for such primitive instruments! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 25, 2013, 10:57:04 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 25, 2013, 10:15:46 AM
Somewhere earlier on in this thread I posted a listing of all versions of these works (the notturni & the concerti) in both Naples & London versions. I actually am quite fond of the Klocker in the Naples version, although he uses a little barrel organ (IIRC) instead of Lira. On the Delirium disk, as you point out, they missed a fine opportunity to use the 2 Lira that they had specially made for them and played 2 of the 3 works in the London version, which is very odd given that everyone and their brother has done the London version already. ::)

Well, I did a search and found the post mentioned above - about a year ago (Jan 2012); SO, Haydn wrote 2 different sets of works for this instrument, i.e. Hob II: 25, 26, 29-32 and Hob. VII (quoted below from a Wiki listing) which can be played w/ the 2 lira (or an equivalent, such as the small organs in the Klocker recording) or w/ oboe/flute substitution - just trying to re-clarify these works in my mind! ??? :)

Thanks - Dave

QuoteFor 2 lire organizzate

These concertos were written for Ferdinand IV, King of Naples whose favorite instrument was the lira organizzata[3] -- an instrument similar to the hurdy gurdy. Modern performances use flute and oboe (or two flutes) as the soloists.

Concerto No. 1 in C major, Hob.:VIIh/1, (1786)
Concerto No. 2 in G major, Hob.:VIIh/2, (1786)
Concerto No. 3 in G major, Hob.:VIIh/3, (1786)
Concerto No. 4 in F major, Hob.:VIIh/4, (1786)
Concerto No. 5 in F major, Hob.:VIIh/5, (1786) second and third movement later adapted to be part of Symphony No. 89

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 25, 2013, 11:00:54 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 25, 2013, 10:57:04 AM
Well, I did a search and found the post mentioned above - about a year ago (Jan 2012); SO, Haydn wrote 2 different sets of works for this instrument, i.e. Hob II: 25, 26, 29-32 and Hob. VII (quoted below from a Wiki listing) which can be played w/ the 2 lira (or an equivalent, such as the small organs in the Klocker recording) or w/ oboe/flute substitution - just trying to re-clarify these works in my mind! ??? :)

Thanks - Dave

Yes, when he went to London, he rescored them for more general use. He obviously replaced the Liras with oboe/flute (flute/flute in one of them), and also dropped the 2 clarinets in favor of violins, and added a double bass (IIRC). Result is a far different sound. Being the essentially crude person I can be at times, I prefer the original sound better. Same great music though. Note that the Romance in Concerto #3 is also the Andante in Symphony #100. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 25, 2013, 11:09:47 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on February 25, 2013, 09:58:33 AM
I listened to part of the disc Gurn posted about,

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnetalLiradiNapolicover_zps80501d0f.jpg)

but did not much care for it. It sounded to my ears somewhat like an "omm-pah-pah" band.

Hey Sanantonio - checkout the 'Old Musical Instruments' thread HERE (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11638.120.html) for a lot more information on the lira instruments; if you can find snippets of the 'Lira Concerti' (i.e. Hob. VII listing I just left in a previous post) w/ Hugo Ruf, might be more to your liking? Also, the Hob. II recordings w/ either Klocker (who uses 2 positive organs) or Mozzafiato/L'Archibudelli are both well done. Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 25, 2013, 11:39:19 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on February 25, 2013, 11:22:07 AM
Sonic Dave, I have that Ruf recording, and I agree the instrument is very interesting ... looking. :D But I do not consider myself a fan of the sound.

:)

...and Ruf uses just one Lira instead of two. I have to say that this disk, the Lira di Napoli one, is the first disk ever to use 2 real Liras.

San, it's a hurdy gurdy; what's to like? :D I read an article the other day that the King of Naples, who was a real animal by all accounts, chose that instrument to sponsor because it was as low class as you could get. A cultural statement. Haydn never actually heard one, he wrote this music based on a written description of what the potential was (range, key etc.). That in itself is a pretty good feat. But he absolutely loved the music that he wrote for it. He kept copies of the originals in his personal collection (which was not his usual habit) and managed to reuse it at every opportunity.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 25, 2013, 11:40:36 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on February 25, 2013, 11:22:07 AM

Actually what I have is Manfred Huss - and I like it a good bit better than the one Gurn linked to.

[asin]B001RL8WYC[/asin]

Yes, that's the London version. It certainly has a much more smooth and elegant feel to it, eh? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 26, 2013, 07:28:45 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on February 26, 2013, 07:17:20 AM
Listening to Haydn symphonies, from Hogwood Vol. 3 with numbers 9, 12 and 13.

Hogwood's might be my favorite set.

:)

Can't argue with that, although I think that for myself I've decided that I don't have a favorite set... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: trung224 on February 26, 2013, 03:27:23 PM

Gurn, can I ask a stupid question, apart from Symphonies and the Creations, which pieces of Haydn (especially chamber music) is worth hearing or important ?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 26, 2013, 03:46:52 PM

Quote from: trung224 on February 26, 2013, 03:27:23 PM
Gurn, can I ask a stupid question, apart from Symphonies and the Creations, which pieces of Haydn (especially chamber music) is worth hearing or important ?

Trung,
Certainly not a stupid question; it is precisely why I am writing this series.

Haydn's contribution to the string quartet tradition is even greater than to the symphonies. If you want to sample the best of that, I would suggest the following works;

6 quartets Op 76, 6 quartets Op 64 or 6 quartets Op 33. I honestly believe that you will come away with a new-found respect for Haydn with those 3 opuses in your hands.

Another genre that he excelled in was the keyboard trio. The ones composed after 1780 especially;

YEAR # Hob. Key
1784   18   5   G
1784   19   6   F
1785   20   7   D
1785   21   8   Bb
1785   22   9   A
1785   23   10   Eb
1788   24   11   Eb
1788   25   12   e
1789   26   13   c
1789   27   14   Ab
1790   29   15   G (Flute instead of Violin)
1790   28   16   D (Flute instead of Violin)
1790   30   17   F (Flute instead of Violin)
1793   32   18   A
1793   33   19   g
1793   34   20   Bb
1794   35   21   C
1794   36   22   Eb
1794   37   23   d
1794   31   32   G
1795   38   24   D
1795   39   25   G
1795   40   26   f#
1795   41   31   eb
1796   43   27   C
1796   44   28   E
1796   45   29   Eb
1796   42   30   Eb

By the time you arrive at the last of the series in 1796, you will have traced a great progression from being simply very nice, usually exciting music to being first rate chamber music. I think Haydn may have been surprised to discover that he in fact really liked piano trios, and as time went by, he put more inventiveness and craft into them than he did in almost any other music of the time. Over the years I have come to like them best of all, and often treat myself to a handful. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: trung224 on February 26, 2013, 05:20:36 PM

Thanks for your excellent recommendation, Gurn :) My experience with Haydn's music is very limited, just because he wrote so many thing and I don't know how to begin with. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on February 26, 2013, 05:23:39 PM

Quote from: trung224 on February 26, 2013, 03:27:23 PM
Gurn, can I ask a stupid question, apart from Symphonies and the Creations, which pieces of Haydn (especially chamber music) is worth hearing or important ?

Further reading:

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/01/haydn.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/01/haydn.html)

QuoteAnd yet, according to the formula of "quality over average quantity plus originality," he is the greatest composer to have lived.

Bit of hyperbole on the Beaux Arts... they will be bettered one day, in their Piano Trio recordings. They just haven't quite yet.

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2004/09/dip-your-ears-no-11.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2004/09/dip-your-ears-no-11.html)
(Hmm... I'll have to give those posts a make-over; they look dated. Still, the Quatuor Mosaiques is a terrific way to get into the string quartets.
An ideal starter for the SQ4ts is the disc by the Minetti Quartet.
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/01/classical-music-for-100-second-100.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/01/classical-music-for-100-second-100.html) & review here: http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=212116 (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=212116)

Brendel's Haydn Sonatas (a selection) is terrific (best of Brendel, certainly):
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/best-recordings-of-2009-3.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2009/12/best-recordings-of-2009-3.html) (No.3 Reissue)...
and better, still, than this: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2004/07/dip-your-ears-no-5.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2004/07/dip-your-ears-no-5.html)

Totally non-essential Haydn, but super-enchanting all the same: A selection of his Scottish Song transcriptions
(Essentially Piano Trio & Voice)
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/02/dip-your-ears-no-53.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2006/02/dip-your-ears-no-53.html)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 26, 2013, 06:02:36 PM

Quote from: trung224 on February 26, 2013, 05:20:36 PM
Thanks for your excellent recommendation, Gurn :) My experience with Haydn's music is very limited, just because he wrote so many thing and I don't know how to begin with. :D

You're welcome, Trung. The disks that Jens recommends will be a good place to start. I don't really recommend too much because I've discovered that I like the music more than particular performances. But those are all highly commendable. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on February 26, 2013, 07:05:04 PM

The Fey CD I ordered landed yesterday and received a listen this morning (symphonies 82, 88 and 95). I was more impressed it with than with the other one I've posted about. It seemed more obviously PI, and more energetic. I may not rush out to get the rest of the series, but I've popped the one just released into my shopping cart.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 27, 2013, 01:07:30 AM

Quote from: Jens F. Laurson
Terry Teachout goes some way into explaining Haydn's lack of true and broad popularity (and his fall from grace at the end of the 18th century). [...]

One element of TT's explanation is what I call the "Mendelssohn conundrum of lasting greatness." Much like Mendelssohn, Haydn was a composer who enjoyed job security, had a generally unexciting, (almost) scandal-free private life, was all-around pleasantly mannered, friendly, healthy and hygienic, prosperous; in short, frightfully well adjusted. Of all the things you can do wrong to secure yourself genius status, Mendelssohn nailed but one: dying young. (A big plus, but not enough to make up for his other lack of flaws.) Haydn couldn't even oblige there and had the impunity to live to the ripe old age of 77. There is, as TT points out, no redeeming factor in his biography that would endear him to our still essentially Romantic world view. No brooding, ill-fated, half-mad, badly tempered off-kilter genius here. No wonder Haydn—The Movie has, unlike (distorted) accounts of Beethoven and Mozart, yet to pour forth from Hollywood. And yet, according to the formula of "quality over average quantity plus originality," he is the greatest composer to have lived.

Very well said.

RTWT here. (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2005/01/haydn.html)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 27, 2013, 05:10:36 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 26, 2013, 07:05:04 PM
The Fey CD I ordered landed yesterday and received a listen this morning (symphonies 82, 88 and 95). I was more impressed it with than with the other one I've posted about. It seemed more obviously PI, and more energetic. I may not rush out to get the rest of the series, but I've popped the one just released into my shopping cart.

If you want just a small sample of Fey's art, I suggest adding these two eventually. I think the 70/73/75 is also one of Monkey Greg's favorites.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/dec11/haydn5354fey.jpg) (http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/dec11/haydn707375frey.jpg)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 27, 2013, 04:28:21 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 27, 2013, 05:10:36 AM
If you want just a small sample of Fey's art, I suggest adding these two eventually. I think the 70/73/75 is also one of Monkey Greg's favorites.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/dec11/haydn5354fey.jpg) (http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/dec11/haydn707375frey.jpg)

Sarge

Yes, both are great. And I do consider the 70/73/75 to be the best volume of the series. It's a perfect representation of Fey's approach. This No. 70 was a revelation for me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on February 27, 2013, 05:57:44 PM

You guys should know me by now. Having two entries in a series will bug me no end, and I'll have to get the rest just because of that.... :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 28, 2013, 12:31:52 AM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31U12ec0O8L.jpg)

Hob XV: 28 in E major

This must be one of the funniest opening in all Haydn's output. Pure bliss! Who would have expected, after so much fun, that eerie second movement. almost Bartok-esque in atmosphere? As for the finale... And my soul from out that shadow that lies floating on the floor / Shall be lifted—one time more! .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 28, 2013, 01:12:55 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 28, 2013, 12:31:52 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31U12ec0O8L.jpg)

Hob XV: 35 in A major
Hob XV: 38 in B-flat major
Hob Xv: 29 in E-flat major

Exquisite music!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 28, 2013, 06:24:13 AM

¡Olé, Haydnistas!

Speaking of the pf trios: the Hob. XV:28 is on here in Boston (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,429.msg701045.html#msg701045) (well, Malden, just north of town) on 9 March.

You bet I'm going!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on February 28, 2013, 06:30:53 AM

Fine, I'll make this a Haydn morning. ::) Going to just HAVE to listen to the Trio No. 28 and the 70/73/75 Fey disc, none of which I've heard before. What a hardship. UGH. >:( >:(

;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on February 28, 2013, 07:34:40 AM

Listened to the Buchberger Quartet in Op. 20/1 last night. I'm still not sure how much I enjoy their vibrato-less playing (on modern instruments), but their transparency and clarity of the recording allows every line of the music to be followed. Oddly, the Mosaiques sound much warmer on period instruments.

Then listened to two recordings of the Piano Sonata No. 50 (Hob. XVI:37), Schornsheim and Moravec. Both were very enjoyable, but Moravec brings a much greater depth of feeling to the slow movement.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on February 28, 2013, 07:43:12 AM

Quote from: Daverz on February 28, 2013, 07:34:40 AM
Listened to the Buchberger Quartet in Op. 20/1 last night. I'm still not sure how much I enjoy their vibrato-less playing (on modern instruments), but their transparency and clarity of the recording allows every line of the music to be followed. Oddly, the Mosaiques sound much warmer on period instruments.

Then listened to two recordings of the Piano Sonata No. 50 (Hob. XVI:37), Schornsheim and Moravec. Both were very enjoyable, but Moravec brings a much greater depth of feeling to the slow movement.

I wonder if Schornsheim deliberately avoids depth, because of some ideas about Haydn's music not being deep. Or whether it's just that Moravec plays Haydn better, from the feelings point of view.

My own thinkng about Haydn this week has centred around the wonderful symphony 46, which is rapidly become one of my most favourite. Does anyone know any really special records of it? I'm listening to Weil, which is certainly not at all bad.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 28, 2013, 07:47:09 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 28, 2013, 12:31:52 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31U12ec0O8L.jpg)

Hob XV: 28 in E major

This must be one of the funniest opening in all Haydn's output. Pure bliss! Who would have expected, after so much fun, that eerie second movement. almost Bartok-esque in atmosphere? As for the finale... And my soul from out that shadow that lies floating on the floor / Shall be lifted—one time more! .

It is indeed a unique work, one I enjoy a lot. The last keyboard trios are full of auditory surprises. I'm listening to that one as I type. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on February 28, 2013, 08:59:59 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on February 28, 2013, 07:43:12 AM
I wonder if Schornsheim deliberately avoids depth, because of some ideas about Haydn's music not being deep. Or whether it's just that Moravec plays Haydn better, from the feelings point of view.

Well, it may not be a very fair comparison.

Now listening to Hamelin in the same work.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 28, 2013, 09:01:28 AM

Well, and "the feelings point of view" angle here is worth re-examining.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on February 28, 2013, 09:01:33 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 28, 2013, 12:31:52 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31U12ec0O8L.jpg)

Hob XV: 28 in E major

This must be one of the funniest opening in all Haydn's output. Pure bliss! Who would have expected, after so much fun, that eerie second movement. almost Bartok-esque in atmosphere? As for the finale... And my soul from out that shadow that lies floating on the floor / Shall be lifted—one time more! .

There's a really nice PI recording of this one with Levin and Beths and Bylsma. It's one of the best Haydn records I know.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 28, 2013, 09:59:12 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 28, 2013, 09:01:28 AM
Well, and "the feelings point of view" angle here is worth re-examining.

Aw, what's the use, Karl? If people want their Classical music played in a Romantic style, who can say no? Not me.... :)

Quote from: Mandryka on February 28, 2013, 09:01:33 AM
There's a really nice PI recording of this one with Levin and Beths and Bylsma. It's one of the best Haydn records I know.

Yes it is, an excellent disk that should be in everyone;s collection. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 28, 2013, 10:01:17 AM

Levin, local boy, you know.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 28, 2013, 10:02:32 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 28, 2013, 09:59:12 AM
Aw, what's the use, Karl? If people want their Classical music played in a Romantic style, who can say no? Not me.... :)

Pardon me while I groove to some Stokowski arrangements of Bach ; )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on February 28, 2013, 10:59:43 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 28, 2013, 09:01:28 AM
Well, and "the feelings point of view" angle here is worth re-examining.

To clarify, it would be wrong to say Schornsheim plays without feeling here. My unfamiliarity with the sound of the instrument she plays here got in the way of hearing what she was doing.

I spent the rest of the morning comparing the Festetics and Mosaïques in Op. 20/1. The Festetics are good, but the Mosaïques really hit it out of the park. One problem I have with some Haydn quartet playing is a certain chugga-chugga pattern that sets in, or a choppy start-stop feeling. The Mosaïques's playing flows and sings.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on February 28, 2013, 11:58:05 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 28, 2013, 09:59:12 AM
Aw, what's the use, Karl? If people want their Classical music played in a Romantic style, who can say no? Not me.... :)

Sure, but no-one mentioned romantic style, the discussion was about feeling.

There are interesting issues that are around here -- at least, I find them interesting. Does the music Haydn wrote somehow express feelings? Should the performer add expression when he plays? Harnoncourt would answer yes to both questions I expect, at least in the Paris symphonies. Hogwood maybe would answer both questions negatively. Norrington -- I don't know.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 28, 2013, 12:04:17 PM

Quote from: Daverz on February 28, 2013, 10:59:43 AM
To clarify, it would be wrong to say Schornsheim plays without feeling here.

Thanks! The various recordings by Schornsheim which I've heard certainly strike me as possessed of feeling.

The question, I expect, becomes How much feeling need there be, for a certain listener to feel that there is feeling? ; )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on February 28, 2013, 12:41:21 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on February 28, 2013, 11:57:53 AM
My own personal view is that for all but the late sonatas, playing them on a modern grand is unidiomatic. For sure, it may produce a pleasing performance, but one that would not fit into the sound world of Haydn's time. For most of the 18th century, despite the fact that fortepianos were in existence before the end of the century, the most common instrument used was still the harpsichord. Most amateurs, who were the primary performers of keyboard sonatas, still had a harpsichord but had not bought the new fortepiano. It is questionable if Haydn used one regularly, or owned one, until late in his career when he was given one, but later sold it a few years before his death in 1806.

There is at least one letter from Haydn to his friend Ms. Gensinger urging her to invest in a fortepiano since his keyboard sonatas written at that time would benefit from the difference.

:)

My favourite Haydn keyboard sonata is Hob 19, no 30, and it has been for twenty or more years. And so I always listen to all the performances of it I can find. The one which, all in all, I find the most satisfying, for drama, colour, feeling, is Robert Hill's. He uses a harpsichord, and I can't help feel that the qualities of the instrument help make the performance so wonderful.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 28, 2013, 01:04:32 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on February 28, 2013, 12:41:21 PM
My favourite Haydn keyboard sonata is Hob 19, no 30, and it has been for twenty or more years. And so I always listen to all the performances of it I can find. The one which, all in all, I find the most satisfying, for drama, colour, feeling, is Robert Hill's. He uses a harpsichord, and I can't help feel that the qualities of the instrument help make the performance so wonderful.

That Hill disk (on Ars musici) is one of my favorites. Listened to it as recently as Monday or Tuesday evening. For all of the sonatas up to 1780 I play my harpsichord versions 10 times for every time I play the fortepiano ones. That said, the clavichord ones are the best of all, IMO. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 01, 2013, 07:22:14 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on February 28, 2013, 11:58:05 AM
Does the music Haydn wrote somehow express feelings?

Haydn's own answer: I sit down at the keyboard, and begin to improvise, sad or happy according to my mood. Once I have seized on an idea, my whole endeavour is to develop and sustain it, always in keeping with the rules of art. (emphasis mine).

Case closed.

Quote
Should the performer add expression when he plays?

Those who feel (pun intended) that music from the classical era is detached, cold and emotionless do the composers a great injustice. Yet still greater injustice is done to them by those who think that this is how the music should sound.

Those people were human beings just like us: if pricked, they bled; if tickled, they laughed. They were not soulless automata; they had hearts, they had feelings, they had emotions, they had their joys and sorrows. What they lacked was the idea that violent expression of extreme feelings is the true mark of a great artist (and the more violent and extreme, the greater the artist); the idea that the tribulations of their private lives might be and should be of interest to anyone else than themselves and those directly involved; and finally, that there is no difference between writing music and writing an entry in the personal diary. They had instead other ideas: that proclaiming loud and bold, to all four corners of the world, one's own feelings and emotions was not exactly an exercise in good taste; that emotions and feelings are universal human traits and expressing them musically does not depend on one's own particular nationality (the notion of a specifically German, or French, or Italian, or Russian, or Scandinavian music, essentially and qualitatively different from each other and in competition for the supremacy over the audience was completely alien to them); and finally, that "the passions, whether violent or not, should never be so expressed as to reach the point of disgust; and music, even in situations of the greatest horror, should never be painful to the ear but should flatter and charm it, and thereby always remain music".

Thus, when Mozart's mother died, he composed a sorrowful violin sonata; but the feeling one gets form hearing it is that of a universal, generally humane sorrow, not in anyway related to that specific event in his life, nor to his nationality; nor is it chock full of dissonances. The music is very far from crying out loud: "Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears! I am Johannes Chrysostomus Wolfgangus Theophilus Mozart, of Austrian stock, and hereby I lament the loss of my dear mother; weep and mourn with me or else be damned, ye philistines!"

Even the Sturm und Drang music, a vehicle for much darker and sharper sentiments than the galante style, never abandoned universalism, cosmopolitanism and musicality.

Bottom line: are there emotions and feelings in the Classical era music? Yes. Are they heart-on-sleeve-ishly, violently and openly expressed? No. Playing Haydn, Mozart or Boccherini* in an analytical, emotionally unengaged and mechanical way is just as wrong as presenting them as a sort of Late Romantics avant la lettre.

(* Speaking of Boccherini, Gurn: if Haydn's treatment in the 19th century was condescending, what about poor Luigi, nicknamed "Haydn's wife"?)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 01, 2013, 07:33:51 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 01, 2013, 07:22:14 AM
Haydn's own answer: I sit down at the keyboard, and begin to improvise, sad or happy according to my mood. Once I have seized on an idea, my whole endeavour is to develop and sustain it, always in keeping with the rules of art. (emphasis mine).

Case closed.

Those who feel (pun intended) that music from the classical era is detached, cold and emotionless do the composers a great injustice. Yet still greater injustice is done to them by those who think that this is how the music should sound.

Those people were human beings just like us: if pricked, they bled; if tickled, they laughed. They were not soulless automata; they had hearts, they had feelings, they had emotions, they had their joys and sorrows. What they lacked was the idea that violent expression of extreme feelings is the true mark of a great artist (and the more violent and extreme, the greater the artist); the idea that the tribulations of their private lives might be and should be of interest to anyone else than themselves and those directly involved; and finally, that there is no difference between writing music and writing an entry in the personal diary. They had instead other ideas: that proclaiming loud and bold, to all four corners of the world, one's own feelings and emotions was not exactly an exercise in good taste; that emotions and feelings are universal human traits and expressing them musically does not depend on one's own particular nationality (the notion of a specifically German, or French, or Italian, or Russian, or Scandinavian music, essentially and qualitatively different from each other and in competition for the supremacy over the audience was completely alien to them); and finally, that "the passions, whether violent or not, should never be so expressed as to reach the point of disgust; and music, even in situations of the greatest horror, should never be painful to the ear but should flatter and charm it, and thereby always remain music".

Thus, when Mozart's mother died, he composed a sorrowful violin sonata; but the feeling one gets form hearing it is that of a universal, generally humane sorrow, not in anyway related to that specific event in his life, nor to his nationality; nor is it chock full of dissonances. The music is very far from crying out loud: "Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears! I am Johannes Chrysostomus Wolfgangus Theophilus Mozart, of Austrian stock, and hereby I lament the loss of my dear mother; weep and mourn with me or else be damned, ye philistines!"

Even the Sturm und Drang music, a vehicle for much darker and sharper sentiments than the galante style, never abandoned universalism, cosmopolitanism and musicality.

Bottom line: are there emotions and feelings in the Classical era music? Yes. Are they heart-on-sleeve-ishly, violently and openly expressed? No. Playing Haydn, Mozart or Boccherini* in an analytical, emotionally unengaged and mechanical way is just as wrong as presenting them as a sort of Late Romantics avant la lettre.

(* Speaking of Boccherini, Gurn: if Haydn's treatment in the 19th century was condescending, what about poor Luigi, nicknamed "Haydn's wife"?)

In general I agree with your analysis. More than emotion, what bothers me is that the style of playing (we were talking keyboard music when this came up) that developed during the 19th and 20th centuries, which is no doubt eminently suitable for music composed to be played in that style comes off as far less convincing when it is applied to Classical Era style. Thus the smooth, entirely legato that may be suitable for Beethoven is not so for Haydn or Mozart. And it doesn't make a damn bit of difference whether you like it better that way, that isn't the point. Mozart is well known to have played very detaché and staccato, and unless specifically marked 'legato' it shouldn't be played that way. That isn't an emotion, it's a playing style. And it applies to Haydn too, and pretty much to all fortepianist/composers who learned their craft on a harpsichord.

Boccherini is such a tragedy that it almost doesn't bear thinking about. He died in abject poverty, totally forgotten musically before he was even dead. Some things about humankind never change....

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 01, 2013, 07:39:06 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 01, 2013, 07:33:51 AMMozart is well known to have played very detaché and staccato...

And that's the way Glenn Gould plays Mozart...and yet he's almost universally reviled. Me, I truly enjoy his Mozart.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 01, 2013, 07:51:15 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 01, 2013, 07:39:06 AM
And that's the way Glenn Gould plays Mozart...and yet he's almost universally reviled. Me, I truly enjoy his Mozart.

Sarge

It's the way that Paul Badura-Skoda plays him too, and even moreso, Ludwig Semerjian (on Atma). I don't dislike his playing so much as the sound of the instrument, just sayin'....

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 01, 2013, 08:05:42 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 01, 2013, 07:51:15 AMI don't dislike his playing so much as the sound of the instrument, just sayin'....

Yeah, I understand. Those monster Steinways just sound ghastly ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 01, 2013, 08:13:35 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 01, 2013, 07:39:06 AM
Me, I truly enjoy [Gould's] Mozart.

And me I truly enjoy his Haydn. Anyway, I don't think there is one single right way to play this or that music --- not even the composer's own way qualifies. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on March 01, 2013, 08:14:36 AM

What's interesting here is how the discussion slipped from ideas to do with expression in performance to ideas to do with touch and articulation. I tend to see romanticism as in fact very centrally to do with articulation, to do with sustaining very long singing lines, building up tension to climaxes very slowly. I see that sort of idea as rather more central to romantic peorformance practice (as defined by paradigms like Furtwangler and Cortot) than ideas to do with expressiveness and emotional intensity.

What I'm not at all clear about is how the expression in something like Davidsbundlertanze is of a different order than the expression in, say, Hob 19 sonata 30 or Symphony 46. Is the idea that Schumann was more personal, less universal than Haydn?

Thanks, by the way, to everyone from some stimulating ideas.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 01, 2013, 08:29:08 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 01, 2013, 08:05:42 AM
Yeah, I understand. Those monster Steinways just sound ghastly ;D

Sarge

I was reading something in Robbins-Landon's Mozart "The Golden Years" the other day and he went on at some length about keyboard instruments (which is really sort of surprising if you know his work), and he said that most people just don't realize that a fortepiano and a piano are 2 entirely different instruments, not just a natural evolution of one into the other. And really, you can hear it, I bet you really can tell if you play them. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 01, 2013, 08:31:34 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on March 01, 2013, 08:14:36 AM
Is the idea that Schumann was more personal, less universal than Haydn?

Absolutely. One doesn't need to know anything about Haydn's personal life in order to enjoy his music; while someone ignoring completely the details of Schumann's personality and life, although he might enjoy Davidsbundlertanze in purely musical terms, yet he will entirely miss its very meaning. ;D

The same goes for Kreisleriana, of which Schumann wrote to Clara Wieck: But, Clara, I'm overflowing with music and beautiful melodies now—imagine, since my last letter I've finished another whole notebook of new pieces. I intend to call it Kreisleriana. You and one of your ideas play the main role in it, and I want to dedicate it to you—yes, to you and nobody else—and then you will smile so sweetly when you discover yourself in it (emphasis mine). Being aware of that, I feel that listening to it is like reading a love letter which was not addressed to me and therefore concerns me not at all: it is almost an impudence. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 01, 2013, 10:16:41 AM

Pushing buttons is my favorite pastime: there's always one that works. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 01, 2013, 10:23:00 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 01, 2013, 10:16:41 AM
Pushing buttons is my favorite pastime: there's always one that works. ;D

And yet I totally believed it of you... ;)

I have no idea about the background of Schumann's works. As a believer in absolute music, I don't really care. And I like them a lot (although he's no Haydn). :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on March 01, 2013, 12:30:32 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on March 01, 2013, 09:41:25 AM
I don't agree that this information is important to the music.

A case could be made that it was important to Schumann and Clara Wieck - but the music ought to, and does, stand on its own without any need for this context. And I doubt you can make a convincing argument that someone who knows this context enjoys or understands or appreciates the music better than someone who is ignorant of the context. In fact, I would argue that the ignorant listener would not be bound within that box and might find that there are more things in Kreisleriana, [Floristan], than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

But... it's ~~absurd~~ heterodox to think that naivete is really quite so blissful, or that less information is better than more. The above information is not necessarily important to the music...

Just think of listening to Parsifal or the Ring as a naif -- one would miss so obviously so much that it may (and does) keep one from enjoying the music altogether. The importance of context can be different, according to the kind of music and also to what one wants to get out of music... but it is never not also important. In Haydn just the same, of sorts, although the knowledge would be of a different kind. If you know the ditty "Geh' im Gasserl auf und nunter, hängen schwarze Kirschen runter, schwarze Kirschen ess ich gern, die Jungefer Nanni hätt ich gern" you might get more out of Sy.94... more of a smile. Similarly, if you don't know the conventions of repetitions and such, there's no joke in false starts or false endings. This is all extra-musical information, and yet it all enhances our listening. I'd love to listen with 'virgin ears' to many a piece, one more time. But I wouldn't trade whatever knowledge I have for that privilege.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 01, 2013, 12:31:38 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 01, 2013, 10:23:00 AM
And yet I totally believed it of you... ;)

Wow! Am I really that good? :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 01, 2013, 12:37:40 PM

Quote from: jlaurson on March 01, 2013, 12:30:32 PM
But... it's ~~absurd~~ heterodox to think that naivete is really quite so blissful, or that less information is better than more. The above information is not necessarily important to the music...

Just think of listening to Parsifal or the Ring as a naif -- one would miss so obviously so much that it may (and does) keep one from enjoying the music altogether. The importance of context can be different, according to the kind of music and also to what one wants to get out of music... but it is never not also important. In Haydn just the same, of sorts, although the knowledge would be of a different kind. If you know the ditty "Geh' im Gasserl auf und nunter, hängen schwarze Kirschen runter, schwarze Kirschen ess ich gern, die Jungefer Nanni hätt ich gern" you might get more out of Sy.94... more of a smile. Similarly, if you don't know the conventions of repetitions and such, there's no joke in false starts or false endings. This is all extra-musical information, and yet it all enhances our listening. I'd love to listen with 'virgin ears' to many a piece, one more time. But I wouldn't trade whatever knowledge I have for that privilege.

Knowledge is wonderful, and irreplaceable too. But I am pretty sure that what San is saying, and what I agree with, is that in the case of Schumann's piano music, not knowing that it is a love paean to Clara doesn't hurt your enjoyment. I would submit that the case of listening to a opera of any stripe without knowing anything about it is in an entirely different league, and I completely agree with you about that aspect.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 01, 2013, 12:39:32 PM

Quote from: Florestan on March 01, 2013, 12:31:38 PM
Wow! Am I really that good? :D

Good, bad... actually, I meant that you shared that sentimental ideal, not that you were a button pusher. Although now that you mention it... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on March 01, 2013, 12:49:23 PM

Quote from: Florestan on March 01, 2013, 08:31:34 AM
Absolutely. One doesn't need to know anything about Haydn's personal life in order to enjoy his music; while someone ignoring completely the details of Schumann's personality and life, although he might enjoy Davidsbundlertanze in purely musical terms, yet he will entirely miss its very meaning. ;D

The same goes for Kreisleriana, of which Schumann wrote to Clara Wieck: But, Clara, I'm overflowing with music and beautiful melodies now—imagine, since my last letter I've finished another whole notebook of new pieces. I intend to call it Kreisleriana. You and one of your ideas play the main role in it, and I want to dedicate it to you—yes, to you and nobody else—and then you will smile so sweetly when you discover yourself in it (emphasis mine). Being aware of that, I feel that listening to it is like reading a love letter which was not addressed to me and therefore concerns me not at all: it is almost an impudence. ;D

I always thought that Kreisleriana was about Hoffmann's book.

Davidsbundlertanze comes with some words by the composer, so you get some clues as to what he intended that way, it's not obvious to me how looking to Schumann's life will help there.

On the other hand knowing about Haydn's emotional life can help make sense of some of the music. Listen to how he proclaims his personal anguish at the death of Maria Anna von Genzinger in the F minor variations. Listen to Beghin.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 02, 2013, 12:04:42 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 01, 2013, 12:39:32 PM
Good, bad... actually, I meant that you shared that sentimental ideal, not that you were a button pusher. Although now that you mention it... :)

Oh, my bad. I inferred the other way around.

I do share "sentimentalism" indeed. It's only that a little auto-irony now and then is salutary. :) Sticking to just one point of view smells of dogmatism.

Quote from: Mandryka on March 01, 2013, 12:49:23 PM
I always thought that Kreisleriana was about Hoffmann's book.

It is, and this also raises the question: is it necessary to read Hoffmann's The Life and Opinions of Tomcat Murr in order to enjoy / understand it?

You might find this analysis of interest: http://pianosociety.com/cms/index.php?section=635 (http://pianosociety.com/cms/index.php?section=635)

Quote
Davidsbundlertanze comes with some words by the composer, so you get some clues as to what he intended that way, it's not obvious to me how looking to Schumann's life will help there.

It helps knowing about his split personality (Florestan / Eusebius), which is the driving force behind them.

Quote
On the other hand knowing about Haydn's emotional life can help make sense of some of the music. Listen to how he proclaims his personal anguish at the death of Maria Anna von Genzinger in the F minor variations. Listen to Beghin.

I will, thank you for the rec.

Just to clarify: Schumann is one of my favorite composers; my very username attests to that. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 02, 2013, 12:07:01 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on March 01, 2013, 12:40:49 PM
the music should be able to stand on its own. And good music does.

I agree (seriously).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 02, 2013, 05:32:58 AM

If only your pure and clean mind could touch me, dear Haydn, nobody has a greater reverence for you than I have. --- Franz Schubert

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on March 02, 2013, 01:25:32 PM

Quote from: Florestan on March 02, 2013, 12:04:42 AM

Just to clarify: Schumann is one of my favorite composers; my very username attests to that. :)

It could also attest to a high opinion of Fidelio (especially in line with your political opinions)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 02, 2013, 04:42:00 PM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61GBWs7IKRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Finally landed. I will begin playing this along side the Fischer. I did take a quick listen to the beginning of No. 1. Is it me, or does the harpsichord come through here more than the Fischer?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 02, 2013, 04:44:16 PM

Quote from: Bogey on March 02, 2013, 04:42:00 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61GBWs7IKRL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Finally landed. I will begin playing this along side the Fischer. I did take a quick listen to the beginning of No. 1. Is it me, or does the harpsichord come through here more than the Fischer?

People say it does. Hearing harpsichord when it is played as continuo is difficult for me, it falls into an audio range that I struggle with. I base my positive opinion of the disk on the other instruments, which I can hear very well. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 02, 2013, 04:59:30 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 02, 2013, 04:44:16 PM
People say it does. Hearing harpsichord when it is played as continuo is difficult for me, it falls into an audio range that I struggle with. I base my positive opinion of the disk on the other instruments, which I can hear very well. :)

8)

On the No. 1, it almost sounds like a concerto for harpsichord at points....which I do not mind.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 02, 2013, 05:03:54 PM

Quote from: Bogey on March 02, 2013, 04:59:30 PM
On the No. 1, it almost sounds like a concerto for harpsichord at points....which I do not mind.

Interesting. I hadn't heard that sort of comment previously. I'll go back and adjust my player to make it more prominent and see what they have to say. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 03, 2013, 12:24:55 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 02, 2013, 01:25:32 PM
It could also attest to a high opinion of Fidelio (especially in line with your political opinions)

That's also true, but when I chose my username I thought of Schumann's character, not Beethoven's.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 03, 2013, 02:35:07 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 02, 2013, 05:03:54 PM
Interesting. I hadn't heard that sort of comment previously.

Yes you have. I've often complained in the Haydn threads about Goodman's overmiked harpsichord. In the listening thread I'll say I'm listening to, for example, Haydn's 70th Harpsichord Concerto :D It's also been a frequent criticism of his cycle from professional reviewers. At least he usually sticks to using it as a real continuo, supporting the bass instruments and usually, in the words of Hurwitz, resisting "the temptation to decorate the music with all sorts of vulgar musical graffiti" like Pinnock and others.

On the negative side, Goodman too often just sounds like mindless hammering that overpowers, and greatly detracts from, the instruments that Haydn actually wrote music for. Since no harpsichordist was employed by the Prince, the use of the harpsichord in Haydn symphonies today is probably inauthentic--and enters the realm of total nonsense when added to the Paris, Chunnel and Londons.

I want to add, though, that, other than the use of the keyboard, I do like Goodman's way with Haydn and the sound of his Band. I just wish he'd followed Hogwood's example.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 03, 2013, 03:29:17 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 03, 2013, 02:35:07 AM
Since no harpsichordist was employed by the Prince, the use of the harpsichord in Haydn symphonies today is probably inauthentic--and enters the realm of total nonsense when added to the Paris, Chunnel and Londons.

Couldn't it be the case that Haydn himself played the harpsichord in symphonies? Besides, If I understand Gurn correctly, there is a harpsichord part in the scores of the symphonies up to, and including, # 98.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 03, 2013, 04:22:35 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 03, 2013, 03:29:17 AM
Couldn't it be the case that Haydn himself played the harpsichord in symphonies? Besides, If I understand Gurn correctly, there is a harpsichord part in the scores of the symphonies up to, and including, # 98.

I realize this is controversial. Hogwood says there are no harpsichord parts (perhaps I'm misremembering ;) ...I'll see if I can dig up the quote). Some surmise Haydn conducted from the violin (his primary instrument). The short harpsichord part in 98 is a joke, right?

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on March 03, 2013, 04:30:27 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 03, 2013, 04:22:35 AM
I realize this is controversial. Hogwood says there are no harpsichord parts (perhaps I'm misremembering ;) ...I'll see if I can dig up the quote).

Sarge

Here's one quote where he simply states his preference:

"I like hearing the symphonies without the harpsichord continuo, and I would be just the one to hate it," said Mr. Hogwood, who himself played continuo in the Mozart symphony recordings. "I haven't come across any places where I thought a harpsichord would help, and there are a great many movements where you're terribly relieved that the harpsichord isn't plinking away."

Quoted from this NYT article (http://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/02/arts/recordings-view-he-d-rather-fight-than-use-keyboard-in-his-haydn-series.html?pagewanted=print&src=pm).

That last part, to see it come one of the original HIPsters, is simply priceless. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 03, 2013, 04:57:40 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 03, 2013, 02:35:07 AM
Yes you have.

I missed this as well, Sarge. I will have to play this disc through and re-report. I am not sure I am opposed to this sound as there is plenty of Haydn without it.

Someone already gave me the advice though that if I put together another cycle to go along with Fischer's, that I should hodge podge it together. I believe that this is a solid idea.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 03, 2013, 05:28:41 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on March 03, 2013, 04:30:27 AM
Here's one quote where he simply states his preference:

Thanks for that. I hadn't read that before. Here is what James Webster says in the booklet for Volume 4 of the Hogwood cycle:

Haydn almost certainly used no keyboard instrument in his symphonies, except in London. This view, which differs from earlier ones but is now widely held among scholars, is based on the following criteria:

(1) Haydn's symphony autographs include no figures or indications of a keyboard instrument whatever, whereas those for other orchestral genres do so in abundance.

(2) The authentic performing materials include absolutely no keyboard parts, figures or references to keyboard instruments.

(3) There is no evidence that the Esterhazy court ever employed a separate keyboard or continuo player (other than Haydn himself) and some evidence that Haydn led the ensemble from the violin (by his own admission, he was a good enough violinist to perform as the soloist in concertos).

(4) The Finale of the Farewell Symphony includes no keyboard music and ends with two unaccompanied violins (presumably Haydn and his concertmaster).

(5) Aspects of the style which formerly were thought to demand filling-out by a continuo (lean orchestrations) are now viewed as characteristic and desirable.

(6) Even with respect to the London Symphonies - where Haydn did indeed preside at the keyboard - the continental sources, including those prepared under his direction, include no keyboard part.

I assume Hogwood agrees with all that. About the London performances: What kind of keyboard was used? And was it, perhaps, used only so Haydn had something to do on stage (as the guest composer and celebrity)?

But there is plenty of room for disagreement, and I fault no one who enjoys hearing the silly tinkling ;) But it is redundant and does, to my ears, make the music sound old-fashioned rather than cutting edge (for the period). It's as if the music is stuck in the Baroque.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on March 03, 2013, 05:42:42 AM

Thank you listing the salient points from the notes, Sarge. I have a couple of questions: what are "authentic performing materials" (as opposed to autographs); and why single out the 'Farewell'?

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 03, 2013, 05:28:41 AM
But there is plenty of room for disagreement, and I fault no one who enjoys hearing the silly tinkling ;) But it is redundant and does, to my ears, make the music sound old-fashioned rather than cutting edge (for the period). It's as if the music is stuck in the Baroque.

Sarge

But to some extent, at least in the earliest works, he was still sticking to certain features from the Baroque, wasn't he? Especially the way some pieces was structured like a church sonata and others displaying influences of concerti grossi (Gurn mentioned this possibility a couple of weeks ago).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 03, 2013, 05:50:45 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on March 01, 2013, 12:49:23 PM
Listen to how he proclaims his personal anguish at the death of Maria Anna von Genzinger in the F minor variations. Listen to Beghin.

I couldn't find Beghin, but stumbled instead upon this rarity:

http://www.youtube.com/v/lRPkE9QQZCA

Andante & Variations in F minor played by Ignacy Jan Paderewski, rec. 1937

Opinions on this performance, anyone?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2013, 05:55:42 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 03, 2013, 05:50:45 AM
I couldn't find Beghin, but stumbled instead upon this rarity:

http://www.youtube.com/v/lRPkE9QQZCA

Andante & Variations in F minor played by Ignacy Jan Paderewski, rec. 1937

Opinions on this performance, anyone?

Love that! I have a PDF of the sheet music that he had published of his own playing arrangement. Never thought I would 'hear him play it though!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 03, 2013, 05:58:38 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on March 03, 2013, 05:42:42 AM
Thank you listing the salient points from the notes, Sarge. I have a couple of questions: what are "authentic performing materials" (as opposed to autographs); and why single out the 'Farewell'?

The original full score manuscript in Haydn's hand (autograph) and the individual sheets of music for each player, I assume. He singled out the Farewell because of the way the symphony progresses in the Finale, with each instrument composed to disappear at the appropriate moment. Two violins end the symphony, not a keyboard, and certainly Haydn would have been the last to leave. So he was probably playing violin.

Quote from: Opus106 on March 03, 2013, 05:42:42 AM
But to some extent, at least in the earliest works, he was still sticking to certain features from the Baroque, wasn't he? Especially the way some pieces was structured like a church sonata and others displaying influences of concerti grossi (Gurn mentioned this possibility a couple of weeks ago).

I'm not so adamantly opposed to the keyboard in the earliest symphonies. It does sound more appropriate there.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 03, 2013, 06:00:45 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2013, 05:55:42 AM
Love that! I have a PDF of the sheet music that he had published of his own playing arrangement. Never thought I would 'hear him play it though!

How do you find it? Too fast, too slow, idiomatic, Romanticized, Classical, wrong, spot on --- how? I ask all that because he's a representative of the Romantic pianistic school and as such, I would expect you to think his style not quite suited to Haydn's music. TIA.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on March 03, 2013, 06:03:23 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 03, 2013, 05:58:38 AM
The original full score manuscript in Haydn's hand (autograph) and the individual sheets of music for each player, I assume. He singled out the Farewell because of the way the symphony progresses in the Finale, with each instrument composed to disappear at the appropriate moment. Two violins end the symphony, not a keyboard, and certainly Haydn would have been the last to leave. So he was probably playing violin.

Oh, I get it now. Danke schön

Quote
I'm not so adamantly opposed to the keyboard in the earliest symphonies. It does sound more appropriate there.

Sarge

Ah, okay. I mentioned it since this line of discussion began with the appearance of disc containing symphonies 1-5. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on March 03, 2013, 06:07:16 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 03, 2013, 06:00:45 AM
How do you find it? Too fast, too slow, idiomatic, Romanticized, Classical, wrong, spot on --- how? I ask all that because he's a representative of the Romantic pianistic school and as such, I would expect you to think his style not quite suited to Haydn's music. TIA.

I'm curious to know as well, for exactly the same reason. (Maybe he's one of the early HIPsters who didn't label himself as such? ;D)

Thanks for the video, in any case, Andrei. I too liked it, despite the obvious shortcomings of the audio quality. Early on, I felt that the rhythm was a bit 'off' at places, although I wasn't sure whether it was the result of the pianist 'being in the moment', or of something intended, or the audio, or simply due to my ear. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 03, 2013, 06:10:59 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on March 03, 2013, 06:07:16 AM
Thanks for the video, in any case, Andrei.

You're welcome, I'm glad you liked it. Youtube is such a treasure trove, ain't it?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 03, 2013, 06:13:44 AM

Quote from: Bogey on March 03, 2013, 04:57:40 AM
Someone already gave me the advice though that if I put together another cycle to go along with Fischer's, that I should hodge podge it together. I believe that this is a solid idea.

A very good idea. My entire Haydn symphony collection is a hodge podge :D I really enjoy the many different ways the music is realized. Even among the HIPsters each performance sounds utterly different, making the question of who's really authentic a most interesting one.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2013, 06:18:17 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 03, 2013, 05:28:41 AM
Thanks for that. I hadn't read that before. Here is what James Webster says in the booklet for Volume 4 of the Hogwood cycle:

Haydn almost certainly used no keyboard instrument in his symphonies, except in London. This view, which differs from earlier ones but is now widely held among scholars, is based on the following criteria:

(1) Haydn's symphony autographs include no figures or indications of a keyboard instrument whatever, whereas those for other orchestral genres do so in abundance.

(2) The authentic performing materials include absolutely no keyboard parts, figures or references to keyboard instruments.

Morning, Sarge,
Well, negative evidence it still evidence, I guess. The standard reply to that point is that if Haydn was playing the continuo why would he write it out? In addition, one would add that the question arises if in fact the Esterházy Orchestra (and the Morzin before them) were so advanced that they were the pioneers in abandoning keyboard continuo when all others around them continued to use it until into the 1770's? I'm not taking sides one way or the other, since I like it both ways, but despite the fact that Webster is a prominent musicologist (just a youngster when he wrote that though), most of the musicology Establishment still doesn't agree with him. Perhaps the "all or nothing" approach is a bit too sweeping? That's MY thought.

Quote(3) There is no evidence that the Esterhazy court ever employed a separate keyboard or continuo player (other than Haydn himself) and some evidence that Haydn led the ensemble from the violin (by his own admission, he was a good enough violinist to perform as the soloist in concertos).

They did, however, have a fine organist at Eisenstadt. In the 1770's, Haydn took over half of that job, but before then there was an everyday player who could most certainly have played continuo if that's what the Boss wanted. There again, continuo was usually realized on the spot, so the fact that it wasn't written out is meaningless. Haydn didn't write out any of these symphonies for publication until 1780, so a lot of playing direction came directly from himself, which is a loss for future musicians, but was highly practical for the Esterházy Band.

Quote(4) The Finale of the Farewell Symphony includes no keyboard music and ends with two unaccompanied violins (presumably Haydn and his concertmaster).

Tomasini was the Concertmaster. Haydn played harpsichord continuo (on the Big Green Cembalo) at every opera presented in the Esterháza Opera House. Don't know that there is any reason to assume that this practice was restricted to opera, it's just the only one documented.

Quote(5) Aspects of the style which formerly were thought to demand filling-out by a continuo (lean orchestrations) are now viewed as characteristic and desirable.

Who can argue with that? :)

Quote(6) Even with respect to the London Symphonies - where Haydn did indeed preside at the keyboard - the continental sources, including those prepared under his direction, include no keyboard part.[/i]

I assume Hogwood agrees with all that. About the London performances: What kind of keyboard was used? And was it, perhaps, used only so Haydn had something to do on stage (as the guest composer and celebrity)?

Chances are great that it was a fortepiano rather than a harpsichord since this was the period that the Brits were changing over one to the other. However, it wasn't just to give Haydn something to do; it was still their normal practice to have keyboard continuo in concerts. It was totally expected that Haydn would 'lead from the harpsichord'.

QuoteBut there is plenty of room for disagreement, and I fault no one who enjoys hearing the silly tinkling ;) But it is redundant and does, to my ears, make the music sound old-fashioned rather than cutting edge (for the period). It's as if the music is stuck in the Baroque. Sarge

Couldn't agree more. I'm not even disagreeing with you, I'm just putting out the opposite side of the argument. As it happens, I prefer my harpsichord continuo, if used, to be discreet. Haydn didn't even bother writing out parts for each instrument in his continuo section. However, it was nearly always cello, violone and bassoon. In works where there is a written out bassoon part (it wouldn't be everywhere) then when the part had a long rest the bassoonist was expected to drop off and play continuo. This was to give some tonal variety and reinforcement to the bass section. There is so much we don't know that it puts in the shade our ability to make sweeping statements of the "they did this...." type. Fact is, we don't know what they did. Just guessing. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2013, 06:25:13 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 03, 2013, 06:13:44 AM
A very good idea. My entire Haydn symphony collection is a hodge podge :D I really enjoy the many different ways the music is realized. Even among the HIPsters each performance sounds utterly different, making the question of who's really authentic a most interesting one.

Sarge

This is a point I've been pondering for several years. I even stuck my head out one time and said something to the effect that the chances were very good that the great variety of tempos and playing of the same piece by different PI bands was probably a lot more authentic than the current standard of everyone pretty much playing it off the same parts and in the same manner (no matter how nice that manner may be. That wasn't my point). I think that if you had been the peripatetic Dr. Burney traveling Europe in those days for the express purpose of listening to different music and players, you probably heard the same (that is; most popular) pieces many times. And it likely was an entire spectrum of expression. That wouldn't be true today.

Just an idle thought. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2013, 06:33:50 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 03, 2013, 06:00:45 AM
How do you find it? Too fast, too slow, idiomatic, Romanticized, Classical, wrong, spot on --- how? I ask all that because he's a representative of the Romantic pianistic school and as such, I would expect you to think his style not quite suited to Haydn's music. TIA.

I can only compare it to what I am used to hearing, which of course this is considerably faster. Probably a bit more ornate too. I note a habit of starting the right hand part before the preceding left hand part is completed, making a net effect of no space between phrases. I don't care too much for that. Overall, it is easy to tell that he was a master pianist, but the style he adopts doesn't suit my taste particularly.

I wish we could still post mp3 clips.... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on March 03, 2013, 06:45:29 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2013, 06:33:50 AM
I wish we could still post mp3 clips.... :-\

8)

Well, you still can, like ALF did some time ago:

:)

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on February 13, 2010, 06:33:14 AM
Andante con variazioni in F minor, Hob.XVII:6 (Ronald Brautigam, fortepiano):

http://www.divshare.com/flash/playlist?myId=10465746-251

Capriccio in G major, HobXVII-1 'Acht Sauschneider müssen sein' (Christine Schornsheim, harpsichord):

http://www.divshare.com/flash/playlist?myId=10466003-9e2

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 03, 2013, 06:48:00 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2013, 06:33:50 AM
I can only compare it to what I am used to hearing, which of course this is considerably faster.

Paderewski's timing is 8:51. There are versions out there even much faster. :)

Ingrid Haebler 7:50

http://www.youtube.com/v/c0vgu9O3nkI

Clara Haskil 6:12

http://www.youtube.com/v/fWM4DcrqK4c

The slowest I could find are these:

Rudolf Buchbinder 16:58

http://www.youtube.com/v/60ln0PCEIc0

Vladimir Stoupel 20:02

http://www.youtube.com/v/oYGMG5vMHXE

Are there any repeats in this piece? This might account for such high discrepancies in the timings.

Quote
Probably a bit more ornate too. I note a habit of starting the right hand part before the preceding left hand part is completed, making a net effect of no space between phrases. I don't care too much for that. Overall, it is easy to tell that he was a master pianist, but the style he adopts doesn't suit my taste particularly.

Thanks, I expected just that. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2013, 07:03:53 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 03, 2013, 06:48:00 AM
Paderewski's timing is 8:51. There are versions out there even much faster. :)

Ingrid Haebler 7:50

Clara Haskil 6:12

The slowest I could find are these:

Rudolf Buchbinder 16:58

Vladimir Stoupel 20:02

Are there any repeats in this piece? This might account for such high discrepancies in the timings.

Not sure they are repeats. They may not play every variation though. Here are the ones I have;

Badura-Skoda 15:13
Oort 14:56
Brautigam 15:09
Cerasi 17:05
Adlam 16:05
Cooper 15:45
Kipnis 17:21
Leach 15:50
Heard 16:05
Staier 15:43
Beghin 15:33

So you can see, pretty consistent. And some of them play parts as fast as Paderewski does (although maybe not all of it). The difference seems to be in 'taking a breath' between phrases, and possibly the number of variations played. It's an andante after all, no one would play it fast enough to half the time! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2013, 07:07:31 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on March 03, 2013, 06:45:29 AM
Well, you still can, like ALF did some time ago:

:)

I'll have to ask him how he did that. Rob mentioned just a few days ago that this version of the software doesn't support it. Maybe that's what's taking us down! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on March 03, 2013, 07:37:25 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 03, 2013, 05:50:45 AM
I couldn't find Beghin, but stumbled instead upon this rarity:

http://www.youtube.com/v/lRPkE9QQZCA

Andante & Variations in F minor played by Ignacy Jan Paderewski, rec. 1937

Opinions on this performance, anyone?

It's a romantic performance, with the emphasis on un- interrupted long phrasing. I think it's rather prettified and emotionally subdued, and he seems reluctant to use the piano's dynamic range. Probably influenced by the idea that Haydn was really not capable of anything but the most congenial, charming, elegant, sunny and soothing music.

Here's the start of Beghin playing it

http://www.goear.com/files/external.swf?file=24d8aa9

I remember also liking Van Oort.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on March 03, 2013, 07:43:56 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 03, 2013, 06:13:44 AM
A very good idea. My entire Haydn symphony collection is a hodge podge :D I really enjoy the many different ways the music is realized. Even among the HIPsters each performance sounds utterly different, making the question of who's really authentic a most interesting one.

Sarge

Yes. You get the same phenomenon with Baroque music. One reason is that ideas about authentic style leave some things open to the performer's discretion. Another is that people think that some performers are HIP, when they may have moved away from the idea. The third is that even with basic things like articulation, there's still a lot of uncertainty about what is authentic. When Haydn marks a movement cantabile, he presumably means "song like", but how did people sing in those days?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 03, 2013, 10:47:55 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on March 03, 2013, 07:43:56 AM
When Haydn marks a movement cantabile, he presumably means "song like", but how did people sing in those days?

We have no idea whatsoever. We also have no idea whatsoever how they played violin, keyboard, flute or any other instrument. We have no idea whatsoever how fast / slow was their Andante, nor do we know if it was consistent (was a Haydn Andante always the same speed as a Mozart one? Gurn just told us that not even a Haydn Andante was the same in every place where the music was performed). As Sarge said, HIP performances differ widely; which is the right one?

Therefore I think that the goal of performing the music exactly as it was performed back then is completely unattainable and trying to achieve at all costs is more an obsession than a meaningful and legitimate artistic pursuit.

I would go further still and say that even what Haydn or Mozart or anyone else had in mind when composing anything is absolutely irrelevant: a work of art, once made public, begins a life of its own. What we have today is a musical "text" (the score) and as such, it is open to multiple interpretations, according to the personality of the interpreter --- and we, as receivers, naturally tend to like whatever suits our own personality. And this is a very good thing, because if there would be a way to determine exactly how a piece of music should be played by everyone, everywhere, at every time, that very moment it will die as a work of art and start its new life as a bore.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2013, 11:38:34 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on March 03, 2013, 11:22:16 AM
Actually there is quite a bit of documentary evidence about all the things you say we have no idea whatsoever. You seem to be advocating Regietheater for performing Haydn.

My thought precisely.

We have tons of documentary evidence how music was performed at a certain place and at a certain time by a certain group of players. But we would be guppies to assume that this held true for a different group in the next town over. That's the problem with verbal descriptions of auditory events. And it brings up certain things that are clearly at odds with the situation as it existed at the time. For example, when Mozart wrote to his father that he greatly enjoyed one of his symphonies being played by the Tönkunstler Society at their annual charity benefit with triple and quadruple instruments, a lot of people who don't really think too deeply take that to mean that his preference was to move ahead to the future and have the full Berlin Philharmonic / Karajan playing all his symphonies. Silly? I've seen it written, not only here but in books too.

A fair generalization that you can make is that whenever a piece was played, they did the best they could to play it as written. And if they didn't have enough violas, or clarinets or whatever, then they used what they had. The reason that tempo markings became more complicated with time is precisely because a composer would write 'Allegro' with the thought in mind of how fast 'Allegro' was where he lived, or for his own band even. When he discovered that in Paris they were playing it a third faster or slower, he started adding modifiers like 'poco' or 'ma non troppo' or 'molto'. You simply can't make generalizations, that's where the traps are, the ones that take you to that bad place where music itself becomes 'general' (read: boring). :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on March 03, 2013, 11:47:49 AM

My question about how people sang came about because I was listening to Fey and Bruggen play the andantino e cantabile from symphony 42. I don't know how strictly informed their performances are.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2013, 12:28:24 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on March 03, 2013, 11:47:49 AM
My question about how people sang came about because I was listening to Fey and Bruggen play the andantino e cantabile from symphony 42. I don't know how strictly informed their performances are.

I don't know the answer to that at all. Plus, is it Italian style singing or German style? Arioso? That's way out of my experience, I'm afraid. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 03, 2013, 02:46:18 PM

Went ahead with a No.2 comparison between Fischer ans Goodman. The Goodman is what it is. Nice for a cd's worth. However, Fischer's just has a depth and beauty to it missing in the Goodman, IMO. Might be the engineering, the orchestral make-up, and the slower playing or something I am not aware of.

Now time to focus on #'s 6-8. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on March 03, 2013, 02:54:32 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2013, 12:28:24 PM
I don't know the answer to that at all. Plus, is it Italian style singing or German style? Arioso?

Or perhaps just singing? Not so rich but probably more cantabile than productions of professional art?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 03, 2013, 03:01:44 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on March 03, 2013, 11:22:16 AM
Actually there is quite a bit of documentary evidence about all the things you say we have no idea whatsoever[....]

But Andrei is right, in that we cannot know how the music sounded then. (Even the wonderful recordings we have of Prokofiev playing his own music, although they furnish us important insights, is not truly the sound which was heard in that space, at that time.) It is ultimately impossible to hear the music as Haydn heard it. Which is not to discount the interest, and possible importance, of the documentary evidence.

I think Andrei has a good point, too, in the fact that a work of art, once it heads out into the world, has something of a life of its own. Probably not entirely divorced from what the composer had in mind, but certainly much broader in compass than the artist's intent.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2013, 03:16:18 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 03, 2013, 03:01:44 PM
But Andrei is right, in that we cannot know how the music sounded then. (Even the wonderful recordings we have of Prokofiev playing his own music, although they furnish us important insights, is not truly the sound which was heard in that space, at that time.) It is ultimately impossible to hear the music as Haydn heard it. Which is not to discount the interest, and possible importance, of the documentary evidence.

I think Andrei has a good point, too, in the fact that a work of art, once it heads out into the world, has something of a life of its own. Probably not entirely divorced from what the composer had in mind, but certainly much broader in compass than the artist's intent.

I don't think that any serious musician or listener would argue that they hear (or want to hear) music the same way that the composer did (unless that was, say, Henning). That is a device for salesmen. It is also a 2 pronged fork; even if it could be reproduced precisely the way the Esterházy Band produced it, for example, 99.9% of us couldn't hear it the way the Prince did because our brains are not wired to hear and process music the way that his, and his educated contemporaries' brains were. So the whole issue/non-issue is far more complicated than its face value.

I don't argue the art thing anyway, so I venture nothing there. They can play it any way they want to play it. I only have to listen to realizations that I find interesting. If I find Minkowswki more interesting in the London Symphonies than I find Karajan, that's the reason both are available to me to discover. Life is good! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2013, 03:27:13 PM

Quote from: mszczuj on March 03, 2013, 02:54:32 PM
Or perhaps just singing? Not so rich but probably more cantabile than productions of professional art?

I don't know. I've always just felt that cantabile means lyrical, legato like a singer would be. I'm not entirely sure that it contains deeper or more varied connotations. Why I said Italian or German was only to differentiate between operatic and Liederische. They sound different to me.... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 03, 2013, 03:30:09 PM

Symphony 6 (27)

The Fisher Model:

Nice feature of violin and winds up front. The second movement was exceptional. If Haydn is not a hidden "romantic" of his time, I do not know who was. I could just listen to only his adagio movements and be satisfied. Allowing the bass fiddlers to breathe at about the 2 minute mark was ear catching and fun. (There he goes with that low plod that I enjoy from him.) A nice nod to the horns at about the 4 minute mark and toward the end. Cart before the horse, but this final movement had a Mozartian prance about it. I wonder if his patrons at the end of a symphony would ever ask for a particular movement to be repeated....or because of the length, the entire symphony. Had to of happened!

Also gave this 6 a whirl:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51laNW8xjVL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Here we have the harpsichord sprinkling in and out. Not Goodman level, but definitely there, just lighter. Also, the violin playing in the Fischer is more to my taste. Here again, Fischer wins for my preference.

FWIW, the liner notes of the Marriner reads:
One of the most striking features of these works is the constant use of instrumental solos, in which they much resemble the older concerto grosso.....Haydn's main concern was to display before the prince the skills of the virtuosos in his orchestra.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2013, 03:30:15 PM

Quote from: Bogey on March 03, 2013, 02:46:18 PM
Went ahead with a No.2 comparison between Fischer ans Goodman. The Goodman is what it is. Nice for a cd's worth. However, Fischer's just has a depth and beauty to it missing in the Goodman, IMO. Might be the engineering, the orchestral make-up, and the slower playing or something I am not aware of.

Now time to focus on #'s 6-8. :)

The depth, beauty, fullness, whatever it will be called, stems from modern instruments with probably more players. It is more a matter of personal choice which you prefer. Important thing is that you enjoy the quality of the music. One of the reasons I rarely recommend performances, just music. As in; you really need to listen to 6-8!! My favorites of the early years. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 03, 2013, 03:31:57 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2013, 03:30:15 PM
The depth, beauty, fullness, whatever it will be called, stems from modern instruments with probably more players. It is more a matter of personal choice which you prefer. Important thing is that you enjoy the quality of the music. One of the reasons I rarely recommend performances, just music. As in; you really need to listen to 6-8!! My favorites of the early years. :)

8)

Good to know the bolded above. And indeed, we are now getting into preferences, not whether it is done well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2013, 03:32:59 PM

Quote from: Bogey on March 03, 2013, 03:30:09 PM
Symphony 6 (27)

The Fisher Model:

Nice feature of violin and winds up front. The second movement was exceptional. If Haydn is not a hidden "romantic" of his time, I do not know who was. I could just listen to his adagio movements and be satisfied. Allowing the bass fiddlers to breathe at about the 2 minute mark was ear catching and fun. (There he goes with that low plod that I enjoy from him.) A nice nod to the horns at about the 4 minute mark and toward the end Cart before the horse, but this final movement had a Mozartian prance about it. I wonder if his patrons at the end of a symphony would ever ask for a particular movement to be repeated....or because of the length, the entire symphony. Had to of happened!

Also gave this 6 a whirl:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51laNW8xjVL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Here we have the harpsichord sprinkling in and out. Not Goodman level, but definitely there, just lighter. Also, the violin playing in the Fischer is more to my taste. Here again, Fischer wins for my preference.

FWIW, the liner notes of the Marriner reads:
One of the most striking features of these works is the constant use of instrumental solos, in which they much resemble the older concerto grosso.....Haydn's main concern was to display before the prince the skills of the virtuosos in his orchestra.

He stole that line from me.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 03, 2013, 03:38:11 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2013, 03:32:59 PM
He stole that line from me.... :)

8)

(* chortle *)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 03, 2013, 03:39:37 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2013, 03:32:59 PM
He stole that line from me.... :)

8)

Lawsuit may be tricky, Gurn. He wrote it in or before 1980. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2013, 04:04:54 PM

Quote from: Bogey on March 03, 2013, 03:39:37 PM
Lawsuit may be tricky, Gurn. He wrote it in or before 1980. ;)

I have you to support me on it though, Bill. You know, it's that chronosynclastic infundibulum thing all over again. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on March 03, 2013, 09:19:27 PM

This question about what cantabile really is is central to J S Bach, he's on record as wanting keyboard music played cantabile. I don't know how important it is for Haydn. Baroque keyboard players don't necessarily take cantabile to mean a long legato line, like you hear in Paderewsky's Haydn. Leonhardt articulated Bach's inventions into short legato units.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on March 08, 2013, 10:20:52 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 01, 2013, 08:29:08 AM
I was reading something in Robbins-Landon's Mozart "The Golden Years" the other day and he went on at some length about keyboard instruments (which is really sort of surprising if you know his work), and he said that most people just don't realize that a fortepiano and a piano are 2 entirely different instruments, not just a natural evolution of one into the other. And really, you can hear it, I bet you really can tell if you play them. :)

8)

This post has been niggling me ever since I first read it, because of this recording:

(http://i.ndcd.net/2/Item/500/146690.jpg)

In it, Hill uses a fortepiano which sounds so rich and well balanced between bass, midrange and treble, that when I first heard it I really thought he was playing some sort of metal framed modern instrument. He writes

Quote from: Robert Hill for Naxos
For this recording I have used a reconstruction of a Florentine fortepiano c.1720 in the manner of Bartolomeo Cristofori, made by Keith Hill (Manchester, Michigan, USA, 1999). The inventor of the piano action, Cristofori also solved, over the period of at least a quarter century, the essential problems of tuning stability inherent in a mechanism in which the string is struck rather than plucked. His ideas were early on exported to Germany, but not in the form of actual instruments. Rather, German instrument-makers had to make do with a published description and a diagram of the action. Thus, the German fortepiano built by Silbermann and others solved the stability problems quite differently, issuing in a complex evolutionary process that, over many decades, ultimately resulted in the development of what we now know as the 'Steinway' grand piano. Remarkably, Cristofori anticipated many of the solutions which were finally adopted in modern grand piano design. I chose to use a Cristofori model because I prize the delightfully flexible sound of the brass strings found throughout the instrument, following the Italian tradition of harpsichord stringing (North European makers used iron from the tenor upwards). The "bloom" of the brass strings very efficiently supports the empfindsam gestures in the musical idea.

I'll try to get hold of a copy of the book, but listening to this fortepiano of Hill's I can't imagine what Robbons Landon's argument is.

The music is amazing by the way -- I recommend the CD without hesitation if you don't already know it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 09, 2013, 06:07:12 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on March 08, 2013, 10:20:52 PM
This post has been niggling me ever since I first read it, because of this recording:

(http://i.ndcd.net/2/Item/500/146690.jpg)

In it, Hill uses a fortepiano which sounds so rich and well balanced between bass, midrange and treble, that when I first heard it I really thought he was playing some sort of metal framed modern instrument. He writes

I'll try to get hold of a copy of the book, but listening to this fortepiano of Hill's I can't imagine what Robbons Landon's argument is.

The music is amazing by the way -- I recommend the CD without hesitation if you don't already know it.

I DO have that disk and very much agree with you. Also BTW like the music on it too!

I didn't read that statement to be about the sound of the instrument per se. He was talking about the mechanics of it, how you can play things on it that either can't be duplicated on a modern piano at all or only by utilizing great skill. Anything that was truly simply evolutionary would have retained these earlier capabilities as well as adding new ones. Since I am not a pianist, and even if I was, the option to play a fortepiano has never presented itself, I can only accept the often presented statement by people who do both that 'the fortepiano is a whole different animal'.

I have some Badura-Skoda playing Schubert on an original FP that has a "Turkish Pedal" option, the first time I heard it I was blown away. Mozart's Walter had an attachment that allowed him to play the bass line like an organ by pedaling. It was actually as large as the keyboard itself. Some instruments also offered many added effects such as playing 1, 2 or 3 strings, and playing them only on certain notes, not the entire thing.

So I think that Landon's point was not that changing the frame from wood to iron was not evolutionary; it certainly was. However, "improved" sound was one of dozens of changes in the instrument. And the net result is that it is actually an entirely different instrument, not just bigger and louder. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 09, 2013, 07:21:55 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on March 08, 2013, 10:20:52 PM
This post has been niggling me ever since I first read it, because of this recording:

(http://i.ndcd.net/2/Item/500/146690.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51QtgLLroNL._SX300_.jpg)

In it, Hill uses a fortepiano which sounds so rich and well balanced between bass, midrange and treble, that when I first heard it I really thought he was playing some sort of metal framed modern instrument. He writes

Thanks for the recommendation w/ Hill on a fortepiano; I have the CD inserted above - Rampe on a harpsichord for the Polonoises + 2 other pieces (the last a Sonata on a tangent piano); just put an order in for the Hill recording! - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 09, 2013, 07:28:10 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on March 09, 2013, 07:21:55 AM
Thanks for the recommendation w/ Hill on a fortepiano; I have the CD inserted above - Rampe on a harpsichord for the Polonoises + 2 other pieces (the last a Sonata on a tangent piano); just put an order in for the Hill recording! - Dave :)

Haven't seen that Rampe disk before. I like the Tangentenflügel, I don't have any Haydn on one but quite a bit of CPE and Mozart. I should post some disks in your "Old Instruments" thread. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 09, 2013, 07:41:12 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 09, 2013, 07:28:10 AM
Haven't seen that Rampe disk before. I like the Tangentenflügel, I don't have any Haydn on one but quite a bit of CPE and Mozart. I should post some disks in your "Old Instruments" thread. :)

Hi Gurn - just have three recordings of WF Bach's music - all harpsichord (except as noted) solo or concerto works; but concerning the Rampe disc, several excellent reviews (one by Dubins) reprinted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=318202) - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 09, 2013, 07:53:53 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on March 09, 2013, 07:41:12 AM
Hi Gurn - just have three recordings of WF Bach's music - all harpsichord (except as noted) solo or concerto works; but concerning the Rampe disc, several excellent reviews (one by Dubins) reprinted HERE (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=318202) - Dave :)

I see the other review there is Hurwitzian in the sense of being totally unable to get his mind around something whose sound doesn't fit his preconceptions. You're right though, Dubins seems to be properly open minded. I am very fond of the instrument. Better stop now or Que will excise us to a HIP thread... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 19, 2013, 05:05:13 AM

This (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21482.msg696908.html#msg696908) is great; I have still only dipped (I've been on a compositional tear, and "Papa" would want it that way), but even the dips have sparkled.

How many folks have made their way completely through the Beghin box? Just trying to get an idea of how far behind the class I am . . . .

Well, I have listened to two of the discs lately, one each these past two nights.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 19, 2013, 06:07:50 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 19, 2013, 05:05:13 AM
This (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21482.msg696908.html#msg696908) is great; I have still only dipped (I've been on a compositional tear, and "Papa" would want it that way), but even the dips have sparkled.

How many folks have made their way completely through the Beghin box? Just trying to get an idea of how far behind the class I am . . . .

Well, I have listened to two of the discs lately, one each these past two nights.

Well, I must confess, I have listened to the entire at least 4 or 5 times. The sound of the instruments fascinates me. :) Also I like to try and pick up on the ornaments and the idiom used on the clavichords. Great little box, I must say. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 19, 2013, 07:08:48 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 19, 2013, 06:07:50 AM
Well, I must confess, I have listened to the entire at least 4 or 5 times. The sound of the instruments fascinates me. :) Also I like to try and pick up on the ornaments and the idiom used on the clavichords. Great little box, I must say. :)

Well, I've gone through the complete box just once - maybe time to start a second visit? :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 19, 2013, 08:06:49 AM

Oh, it is very good indeed. I've not been systematic, either . . . but I've watched the DVD, and must have listened to five of the CDs. Truly a treasure!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on March 19, 2013, 10:18:25 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 19, 2013, 05:05:13 AM
How many folks have made their way completely through the Beghin box?

I've yet to begin the Beghin. (I don't have this set, but couldn't resist the Cole Porter pun.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 19, 2013, 10:23:22 AM

Quote from: Daverz on March 19, 2013, 10:18:25 AM
I've yet to begin the Beghin.

Excellent 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on March 19, 2013, 06:22:22 PM

I've given the Beghin box a complete runthrough.

And now, a question which Gurn is probably the best placed to answer.

I played the first CD of the Holzapfel/dolce risonanza organ concertos recording. (Thank you for suggesting it.) Now, the booklet mentions (in giving illustration credits) three engravings/prints of c. 1790 Vienna, but the booklet actually contains only one such illustration, the cover illustration. Do you happen to know which of the three is actually used. (I suppose you don't know what happened to the other two, but if you do, I'd be curious about the explanation.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 19, 2013, 06:37:08 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 19, 2013, 06:22:22 PM
I've given the Beghin box a complete runthrough.

And now, a question which Gurn is probably the best placed to answer.

I played the first CD of the Holzapfel/dolce risonanza organ concertos recording. (Thank you for suggesting it.) Now, the booklet mentions (in giving illustration credits) three engravings/prints of c. 1790 Vienna, but the booklet actually contains only one such illustration, the cover illustration. Do you happen to know which of the three is actually used. (I suppose you don't know what happened to the other two, but if you do, I'd be curious about the explanation.)

You're welcome, glad you like it!

Now, there's a good question. They do indeed credit Artaria for 3 engravings, and there is only the one. Of the three, I think the one used is the second one listed, the Cloister and Church of the Brothers of Mercy in the Leopoldstadt. That is where Haydn worked in 1755-57. But why they credit three and list one is one of those mysteries that may go unsolved... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 20, 2013, 06:53:59 AM

Each of the last two CDs of the Beghin set has the E^b sonata (Hob.XVI/52) . . . but the CD jacket gives a different date for each. Is that a Haydn catalogue thing, or an editorial lapse? : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 20, 2013, 07:11:30 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 20, 2013, 06:53:59 AM
Each of the last two CDs of the Beghin set has the E^b sonata (Hob.XVI/52) . . . but the CD jacket gives a different date for each. Is that a Haydn catalogue thing, or an editorial lapse? : )

The sonata was written in England for Teresa Jansen, and he gave it to her. She didn't publish it for several years. Beghin thus plays it on an English piano, a Broadwood clone, IIRC. Then, 2 or 3 years after returning to Vienna, Haydn (probably sub rosa) sold it to a German publisher (probably Breitkopf & Härtel). So it is also played on a Viennese action piano, which is noticeably different in sound, eh? So both, quite different sounding, versions are authentic. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 20, 2013, 07:25:21 AM

But the piece itself is unchanged, as it were?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 20, 2013, 07:41:35 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 20, 2013, 07:25:21 AM
But the piece itself is unchanged, as it were?

Yes, it should be just the same (even though IIRC he rewrote it from memory, having given the autograph over to Jansen). :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on March 20, 2013, 07:36:27 PM

Perhaps memory is confused here, and I don't have time tonight to actually play the pertinent portion of the DVD--but wasn't the performance of one movement of that sonata on the DVD actually filmed at the Holywell concert room, with a small audience? And is therefore not actually the same performance as found on the audio CD?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Octave on March 20, 2013, 09:14:30 PM

Hey Gurn, I only just now noticed your Haydn 'blog' sticky at the top of the Composer Discussion subforum; thanks for organizing your Haydn essays and indices this way....useful to see them all together in one place. Here's hoping some day you get the courage to take the blog "public", though I guess GMG is already public, innit?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2013, 04:21:02 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 20, 2013, 07:36:27 PM
Perhaps memory is confused here, and I don't have time tonight to actually play the pertinent portion of the DVD--but wasn't the performance of one movement of that sonata on the DVD actually filmed at the Holywell concert room, with a small audience? And is therefore not actually the same performance as found on the audio CD?

It has been too long since I watched it to remember the specifics there, but at most can be said that it isn't the same as either one of the versions recorded on the 2 CD's. Although it is probably played on the same piano as the one on the English CD. I listened to that programme last night, BTW, and enjoyed it as much as ever! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2013, 04:25:51 AM

Quote from: Octave on March 20, 2013, 09:14:30 PM
Hey Gurn, I only just now noticed your Haydn 'blog' sticky at the top of the Composer Discussion subforum; thanks for organizing your Haydn essays and indices this way....useful to see them all together in one place. Here's hoping some day you get the courage to take the blog "public", though I guess GMG is already public, innit?

Thanks for having prodded me into doing that, actually. :) I don't know, actually, where I'm going to go yet; I bought a web address last year, but haven't quite figured what to do with fjhaydn.com yet! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 26, 2013, 12:41:59 PM

I suppose that one reason I am taking my time making way through the Beghin set, has been a near-subconscious wish to "live" with each instrument a bit, let its sound settle. Fabulous box.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 27, 2013, 03:41:34 AM

Very excited at this word from amazon.it viz. the Hogwood symphonies box:

QuoteLa data di consegna prevista è mercoledì, 03 aprile 2013

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 27, 2013, 04:20:39 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 27, 2013, 03:41:34 AM
Very excited at this word from amazon.it viz. the Hogwood symphonies box:

Yes indeed! Wonder how long the shipping is? Usually for me, Germany is, like, a week more than England. Never ordered from Italy though. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 27, 2013, 04:27:07 AM

Well, they appear to have shipped out yesterday, and they're saying it should arrive Wednesday the 3^rd.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 27, 2013, 04:30:33 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 27, 2013, 04:27:07 AM
Well, they appear to have shipped out yesterday, and they're saying it should arrive Wednesday the 3^rd.

Well, we'll see what Homeland Security has to say about that. I had some come through that seem to have had time-consuming orifice checks.... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 27, 2013, 04:40:31 AM

Prepared to exercise the virtue of Patience . . . will continue through the Beghin box meanwhile : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 27, 2013, 04:51:57 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 27, 2013, 04:40:31 AM
Prepared to exercise the virtue of Patience . . . will continue through the Beghin box meanwhile : )

So, win::win. Splendid! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on March 27, 2013, 05:57:45 PM

Not meaning to rain on your parade, so to speak, but I think the Italian means that Amazon Italy expects to ship the Hogwood on April 3--not that it's been shipped already and you will have it in a few days. (If it does mean that, it would be faster than most items I've ordered from Amazon US.)

I've ordered twice from Amazon Italy. The first one took a month to reach me, the second (IIRC) took three weeks. So I would look for it to arrive on or about May 1.

In the meantime, you do have Beghin, so there is plenty of consolation to be had.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 29, 2013, 02:46:43 AM

Well, but unless amazon.it operate differently (which they may) amazon as a policy do not charge for an item until they ship it; and the charge for the Hogwood box landed the same day as this e-mail advisory.

And I recall the Brahms carton coming from a German source, quite speedily, considering. So 3 April is not crazee talk : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 29, 2013, 03:49:39 PM

I hope that those who might be interested will note my brief review (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21482.msg707410.html#msg707410) of The Seven Last Words DVD by Savall. I would be delighted to discuss and discover things from you about it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on March 29, 2013, 04:03:50 PM

Gurn, have you heard all of Haydn's works at least once? I was just curious! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 29, 2013, 04:14:27 PM

Quote from: ChamberNut on March 29, 2013, 04:03:50 PM
Gurn, have you heard all of Haydn's works at least once? I was just curious! :)

Ummm... no. At least 10 times, I think. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on March 29, 2013, 04:23:12 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 29, 2013, 04:14:27 PM
Ummm... no. At least 10 times, I think. :)

8)

:)

Time very well spent, my friend! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 29, 2013, 04:56:49 PM

Quote from: ChamberNut on March 29, 2013, 04:23:12 PM
:)

Time very well spent, my friend! :)

I agree, Ray. I've never regretted a minute of it. Just a small correction, now that I've thought about it some more; I've only listened to the operas 3 or 4 times each. Operas are big! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 29, 2013, 04:58:20 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 29, 2013, 04:14:27 PM
Ummm... no. At least 10 times, I think. :)

8)

Favorite Symphony?
Favorite String Quartet?
Favorite Piano Sonata?
Favorite Concerto?

Time to pick the brain of The Gurn. >:D 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 29, 2013, 05:10:51 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 29, 2013, 04:58:20 PM
Favorite Symphony?
Favorite String Quartet?
Favorite Piano Sonata?
Favorite Concerto?

Time to pick the brain of The Gurn. >:D 8)

Man, that's hard...

Favorite Symphony? I love the quartet of G major symphonies from the late years: 88, 92, 94 & 100. To me, they are the essence of Haydn's personality. Haydn IS G major. :)

Favorite String Quartet? Op 50 #1 in Bb. Op 76 #2 in d. All the others are tied for third. :)

Favorite Piano Sonata? Well, Hob 52 (#62) in Eb is the only one where Haydn really cut loose and wrote for a professional caliber player, amateurs be damned. Hob 20 in c. Hob 49 (#59) that he wrote for his lady friend in Vienna, Marianne Genzinger.

Favorite Concerto? Horn concerto #1. Cello Concerto #1. Keyboard concerto #11

Favorite keyboard trios? Hob 6, 25 & 31. These 3 alone can represent the entire spectrum of his interest in the genre (which was huge, BTW).

Of course, these things don't even begin to scratch the surface of the possibilities. Curious what some of y'all's are. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on March 29, 2013, 05:14:49 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 29, 2013, 05:10:51 PM
Man, that's hard...

Favorite Symphony? I love the quartet of G major symphonies from the late years: 88, 92, 94 & 100. To me, they are the essence of Haydn's personality. Haydn IS G major. :)

Favorite String Quartet? Op 50 #1 in Bb. Op 76 #2 in d. All the others are tied for third. :)

Favorite Piano Sonata? Well, Hob 52 (#62) in Eb is the only one where Haydn really cut loose and wrote for a professional caliber player, amateurs be damned. Hob 20 in c. Hob 49 (#59) that he wrote for his lady friend in Vienna, Marianne Genzinger.

Favorite Concerto? Horn concerto #1. Cello Concerto #1. Keyboard concerto #11

Favorite keyboard trios? Hob 6, 25 & 31. These 3 alone can represent the entire spectrum of his interest in the genre (which was huge, BTW).

Of course, these things don't even begin to scratch the surface of the possibilities. Curious what some of y'all's are. :)

8)

Favourite Baryton Trio? ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 29, 2013, 05:19:26 PM

Quote from: ChamberNut on March 29, 2013, 05:14:49 PM
Favourite Baryton Trio? ;D

:P

#101 in C. It closes with a 3 voice fugue that is really excellent.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 29, 2013, 05:21:21 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 29, 2013, 05:10:51 PM
Man, that's hard...

Favorite Symphony? I love the quartet of G major symphonies from the late years: 88, 92, 94 & 100. To me, they are the essence of Haydn's personality. Haydn IS G major. :)

Favorite String Quartet? Op 50 #1 in Bb. Op 76 #2 in d. All the others are tied for third. :)

Favorite Piano Sonata? Well, Hob 52 (#62) in Eb is the only one where Haydn really cut loose and wrote for a professional caliber player, amateurs be damned. Hob 20 in c. Hob 49 (#59) that he wrote for his lady friend in Vienna, Marianne Genzinger.

Favorite Concerto? Horn concerto #1. Cello Concerto #1. Keyboard concerto #11

Favorite keyboard trios? Hob 6, 25 & 31. These 3 alone can represent the entire spectrum of his interest in the genre (which was huge, BTW).

Of course, these things don't even begin to scratch the surface of the possibilities. Curious what some of y'all's are. :)

8)

Great list, Gurn! Thank you for that. :)

Favorite Symphony? If I had only to choose only one, it would be No.80, otherwise I would allow No.6, 39, 45, 49 and 98 into the mix to duke it out!
Favorite String Quartet? "The Bird" from Op.33, especially for the finale, the entrance of the second theme is amazing. And I'm with you, Gurn, Op.76 No.2 is a close second.
Favorite Piano Sonata? Don't really have one, yet. Love them, but need to spend more time with the Sonatas. :-[
Favorite Concerto? Cello Concerto 1

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 29, 2013, 05:29:53 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 29, 2013, 05:21:21 PM
Great list, Gurn! Thank you for that. :)

Favorite Symphony? If I had only to choose only one, it would be No.80, otherwise I would allow No.6, 39, 45, 49 and 98 into the mix to duke it out!
Favorite String Quartet? "The Bird" from Op.33, especially for the finale, the entrance of the second theme is amazing. And I'm with you, Gurn, Op.76 No.2 is a close second.
Favorite Piano Sonata? Don't really have one, yet. Love them, but need to spend more time with the Sonatas. :-[
Favorite Concerto? Cello Concerto 1

Yours is a great list too, Greg. That's why the question is so hard! I listened to 3 of your favorite symphonies today while I was writing that essay on the 7 Last Words. Along with #44. I have a hard time picking sonatas too, I find them to be uniformly interesting, although far from uniform. My single favorite genre is probably keyboard trios. I have probably every version ever recorded on period instruments (if I'm missing any, I really want to know), and when I'm looking for something to play without any forethought, it is nearly always one of those 'albums'.

Anyway, I can probably fall right in with anyone's choices and feel right at home, even the Lieder and Canzonettas! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 29, 2013, 05:32:53 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 29, 2013, 05:29:53 PM
My single favorite genre is probably keyboard trios.

8)

This is the only trio disc I own, it's wonderful. I'm sure I'm missing some good recordings, and other good trios.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51S3CQT9RFL._SY300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 29, 2013, 05:41:50 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 29, 2013, 05:32:53 PM
This is the only trio disc I own, it's wonderful. I'm sure I'm missing some good recordings, and other good trios.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51S3CQT9RFL._SY300_.jpg)

Well, it's trite to say "that's the only one you need", but that's a damn fine disk. The last 4 trios were the pinnacle of his art in that genre, and there are musical elements in them that didn't become standard for 50 years! In addition, Levin and Haydn are muy simpatico, and Bylsma is my favorite cellist bar none. His wife is a pretty fine fiddler too. So maybe I'll risk triteness... nah, shop carefully for a few earlier ones. I don't want to spend your money for you, but the complete Trio 1790 set is available here and there for $50. I paid full price for each disk as it was released (a hell of a lot more than $50!!) and have not a single regret. You would then have a very fine version of each piece that would enable you to know what to look for if you want to hear other expressions. Just sayin'... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on March 29, 2013, 06:43:19 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 29, 2013, 02:46:43 AM
Well, but unless amazon.it operate differently (which they may) amazon as a policy do not charge for an item until they ship it; and the charge for the Hogwood box landed the same day as this e-mail advisory.

And I recall the Brahms carton coming from a German source, quite speedily, considering. So 3 April is not crazee talk : )

My Italian is not of the best, to say the least; and I'm pretty sure they won't charge before shipment. The only vendor I deal with who charges at the time of the order and not at the time of shipment is Prestoclassic. But I think a one week transit time from across the pond is rather speedy; the only vendor who came close to one week from Europe that I can remember was an Amazon MP vendor based in Austria. Otherwise, JPC, Presto and Amazon France were the quickest, at two to three weeks.

So keep you fingers crossed (however one says that in Italian).

Thread duty:
Aeolian String Quartet playing Seven Last Words
the Biblical narration is replaced in this recording by English poems (Donne, Herrick, Sitwell, Anonymous and others) read by Peter Pears

ETA: not sure about Pears's contribution, but that sure is one earthquake to end it!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 30, 2013, 06:53:35 AM

The Allegro di molto of the B^b Sonata on Beghin's disc 10 (I think it is) sounds wonderfully like The Best Banjo Sonata in the World.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 30, 2013, 06:57:45 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 30, 2013, 06:53:35 AM
The Allegro di molto of the B^b Sonata on Beghin's disc 10 (I think it is) sounds wonderfully like The Best Banjo Sonata in the World.

:) Ah yes, on Program 8, Hob 16:41. I can just hear Bela Fleck cranking that one out! That's a most unusual sounding instrument, isn't it? I would have though Tangentenflügel on first hearing. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Octave on March 30, 2013, 08:09:45 AM

re: late piano trios by Levin/Beths/Bylsma:

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 29, 2013, 05:32:53 PM
This is the only trio disc I own, it's wonderful. I'm sure I'm missing some good recordings, and other good trios.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 29, 2013, 05:41:50 PM
[......]but the complete Trio 1790 set is available here and there for $50. I paid full price for each disk as it was released (a hell of a lot more than $50!!) and have not a single regret. You would then have a very fine version of each piece that would enable you to know what to look for if you want to hear other expressions. Just sayin'...

Gurn, do you know the Eisenstadt piano trios? I guess not, because you tend to stick to HIP recordings for Haydn, correct? Have you already weighed in on the relative merits of the Trio 1790 vs. Van Swieten Trio? I will almost certainly be getting the Big Brilliant Box, with the Van Swietens' recordings; but if the Trio 1790 set is worth the expenditure, I might get that, too. I'm afraid I approach overkill here, even as wonderful as this repertoire is.
For my own part, I loved that Levin/Beths/Bylsma, but enjoyed the recent recordings in the Eisenstadt box so much (with some time already spent with the whole Beaux Arts box by library), I only felt the need to get the Pentatone 2sacd late trios collection of the BAT's recordings, just to have a large sample of their beautiful refined playing, and also to try out the allegedly-much-better Pentatone mastering. (Have not a direct A/B, but the Pentatone discs sound really fine.) The other reason I chose the Eisenstadt, beside its reputation, was its rarity; I was lucky to scoop up a new copy for $34 after it had disappeared entirely from Amazon availability for a while. The Amazon-MP vendor was FabulousCD, so maybe this means Abeille might still have a few sitting around that they'd part with for ethical prices?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 30, 2013, 08:23:10 AM

Quote from: Octave on March 30, 2013, 08:09:45 AM
re: late piano trios by Levin/Beths/Bylsma:
Gurn, do you know the Eisenstadt piano trios? I guess not, because you tend to stick to HIP recordings for Haydn, correct? Have you already weighed in on the relative merits of the Trio 1790 vs. Van Swieten Trio? I will almost certainly be getting the Big Brilliant Box, with the Van Swietens' recordings; but if the Trio 1790 set is worth the expenditure, I might get that, too. I'm afraid I approach overkill here, even as wonderful as this repertoire is.
For my own part, I loved that Levin/Beths/Bylsma, but enjoyed the recent recordings in the Eisenstadt box so much (with some time already spent with the whole Beaux Arts box by library), I only felt the need to get the Pentatone 2sacd late trios collection of the BAT's recordings, just to have a large sample of their beautiful refined playing, and also to try out the allegedly-much-better Pentatone mastering. (Have not a direct A/B, but the Pentatone discs sound really fine.) The other reason I chose the Eisenstadt, beside its reputation, was its rarity; I was lucky to scoop up a new copy for $34 after it had disappeared entirely from Amazon availability for a while. The Amazon-MP vendor was FabulousCD, so maybe this means Abeille might still have a few sitting around that they'd part with for ethical prices?

I have heard a disk from their set. I would rate it ahead of BAT for quality overall, despite that I like BAT a lot; Eisenstadt has adopted many HIP playing techniques which work well for them. Not much you can do with a grand piano though. :D If I didn't have so many versions of these works already, I would have picked up that set anyway simply because of the quality.

As for the Van Sweiten/Trio 1790, the major difference of course is that the pre-1780 trios are played on harpsichord on the Trio 1790 set. And I'm just eccentric enough to appreciate that, I think it is a turnoff for a lot of people (and would have been for me as recently as 5 or 6 years ago). Playing-wise, I am a big fan of Harald Hören, the keyboardist for Trio 1790, I think he is among the smoothest players out there. As you know, some of these trios have incredibly virtuosic fast passages, and Hören tosses them off so easily it is uncanny. Not that I don't also appreciate my old favorite the Bartster, but in this rep, I think he is outdone. If you can find a used copy of Vol. 1 for a few bucks, give it a try and see what you think. None of this is to say that I don't like the Van Sweiten's efforts though. I'm delighted to have that set. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Octave on March 30, 2013, 08:28:03 AM

Thanks for that response, I'm interested already. I'm hoping Deepdiscount has another sale covering CPO in the spring/summer; if the discounts are deep enough, I might go crazy and get that 1790 set. I do love these pieces...I don't know why I would hesitate accumulating them in a way that I might not with Schubert. It is the Romantic prejudice! A blight, Gurn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 30, 2013, 08:33:28 AM

Quote from: Octave on March 30, 2013, 08:28:03 AM
Thanks for that response, I'm interested already. I'm hoping Deepdiscount has another sale covering CPO in the spring/summer; if the discounts are deep enough, I might go crazy and get that 1790 set. I do love these pieces...I don't know why I would hesitate accumulating them in a way that I might not with Schubert. It is the Romantic prejudice! A blight, Gurn.

:) Well, I share your hesitation. I have multiple recorditis syndrome (MRS) for only a very few composers; Haydn (anything and everything on PI), Mozart, and Beethoven's 9th. Everything else (and there is a lot of that) is limited to 1 or 2 recordings each. If I'm not mistaken, I have more Mozart than Haydn... I know, sad. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on March 31, 2013, 12:26:18 PM

For what it's worth, my favourite trio recordings are:

Top tier - all equally good maybe

Oistrakh-Oborin-Knushevitsky
The ones with Gilels
The ones with Levin
The ones with Jerome Hantai
Casals-Thibaud-Cortot
Szymon Goldberg and Lilli Kraus and Anthony Pini

And slightly less wonderful I think, but a good varied selection

Janigro/Fornier/Badura Skoda

And MAYBE (can't make up my mind)

Trio Wanderer (this has grown on me with repeated listening for sure)
Schiff/Shiokawa/Pergamenschikow

Of all of these the one which stand out the most are the ones with Oistrakh-Oborin-Knushevitsky

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on March 31, 2013, 12:29:51 PM

I'll try to listen to Savall's 7 words soon, I've never heard it, but I can get it through spotify. I have the one with Accentus, but the one which left the most impact on me was Scherchen's despite the less than top - drawer singers and orchestra, he was really inspired in the performance. I've never really gotten into the non-choral versions.

Tonight I'll listen to Shostakovich's 15th quartet, which I guess was influenced by 7 words.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 31, 2013, 02:32:54 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on March 31, 2013, 12:54:08 PM
Interesting choices! Aside from the Levin and Trio Wanderer, I have not heard these others, but will definitely look for them all.

Mostly I find myself gravitating towards period instruments and have not paid much attention to older recordings - but there are some really good musicians represented on these trios. I am especially interested in the Gilels set that includes a lot of music besides Haydn.

:)

The Hantai is very nice too;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardTriosHantai.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/LArchTrioscover_zpse2c52e96.jpg)

Haven't heard the others though, except Levin, of course. I like Trio Wanderer in later works, I can easily imagine them doing very worthwhile performances here too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 03, 2013, 09:53:37 AM

Two questions (well, one question, one comment looking for answers) for the Haus-mates.

1. I need some good recommendations for some Op.77 PI string quartets, other than Quatuor Mosaiques.

2. Are these the same recordings by Quatuor Mosaiques? I was listening to Op.77 last night and my Mosaiques disc is skipping on several spots >:D >:D >:D >:D so I may need to replace it.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51hiSZzzBuL._SL500_SX300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XMnREgAcL._SY300_.jpg)

Thanks!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 03, 2013, 09:54:55 AM

Very much enjoyed your review (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21482.msg707410.html#msg707410), O Gurn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 03, 2013, 10:03:38 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 03, 2013, 09:53:37 AM
Two questions (well, one question, one comment looking for answers) for the Haus-mates.

1. I need some good recommendations for some Op.77 PI string quartets, other than Quatuor Mosaiques.

2. Are these the same recordings by Quatuor Mosaiques? I was listening to Op.77 last night and my Mosaiques disc is skipping on several spots >:D >:D >:D >:D so I may need to replace it.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51hiSZzzBuL._SL500_SX300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51XMnREgAcL._SY300_.jpg)

Thanks!

Wow, that sucks. Anyway, yes, they are the same recordings, the orange one being the original.

I'll let someone else have a crack at the recommendation, then if you don't see something you like I'll toss in a couple. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 03, 2013, 10:05:00 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 03, 2013, 09:54:55 AM
Very much enjoyed your review (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21482.msg707410.html#msg707410), O Gurn.

Thanks, Karl. I got that DVD at BRO for peanuts. It was worth macadamias, at least! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 03, 2013, 10:07:11 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 03, 2013, 10:03:38 AM
Wow, that sucks. Anyway, yes, they are the same recordings, the orange one being the original.

I'll let someone else have a crack at the recommendation, then if you don't see something you like I'll toss in a couple. :)

8)

Thanks, Gurn. Any difference in quality? Remastering of any sort?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 03, 2013, 10:12:49 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 03, 2013, 10:07:11 AM
Thanks, Gurn. Any difference in quality? Remastering of any sort?

I don't know, Greg, I didn't have the older version of that one. I got them when they were re-released with those newer covers. My guess would be that they were not remastered; they weren't that old (1989, IIRC & DDD) to start with. I think they only do that with ADD don't they? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 03, 2013, 10:16:43 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on April 03, 2013, 10:14:23 AM
It could be your CD is a bad one and could be replaced without the problem. Mine plays fine. But, as far as other recordings, I'd suggest the Festetics but their recordings are hard to find. Easier to find, and also very good is the L'Archibudelli recording of the Last Three String Quartets.

[asin]B0000029U1[/asin]

OK, now my backup rec is out in the open.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 03, 2013, 10:31:06 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on April 03, 2013, 10:20:10 AM
I also meant to include the Schuppanzigh Quartet's recording, but which only has Op. 77, No. 1:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/610QmPBM87L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

Yes, such a shame about them. I like the idea of having a couple of disks with quartets from all different opuses, but at best they just whet your appetite for more of their playing, which is very sympathetic to Haydn's music. Inside the digipak for disk 2 there was a picture of Vol 3, which even had a catalog number assigned, but in the event it was never released. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 03, 2013, 10:34:22 AM

I have purchased this one just the other day, but not received it yet so I can't comment;

[asin]B0031OSC1Q[/asin]

Alea Ensemble are PI, and I read a couple reviews of it about 2 months ago that were very favorable. They are new to me though so I don't know their style at all. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 03, 2013, 10:45:04 AM

Big thanks to S.A. and Gurn for the recs, I've seen those discs online, will definitely check them out.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 03, 2013, 10:45:15 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 03, 2013, 10:34:22 AM
I have purchased this one just the other day, but not received it yet so I can't comment;

[asin]B0031OSC1Q[/asin]

Alea Ensemble are PI, and I read a couple reviews of it about 2 months ago that were very favorable. They are new to me though so I don't know their style at all. :)

8)

The sample clips sound very nice.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 03, 2013, 10:50:14 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on April 03, 2013, 10:42:24 AM
Fantastic that they have turned their attention to Haydn. All I've heard from them was Boccherini - and that was very good.

Ah! Well that sounds promising then. I've had them on my wish list since reading those reviews, and they finally rose to the top this week. I can't remember any mention of anything else they had done though. Boccherini works for me, though! Another group I would like to hear doing some Haydn is Revolutionary Drawing Room. I have their Boccherini, Mozart (with Colin Lawson) and 4 or 5 of their Donizetti, which is so unheralded as to be unheard of! Excellent music and playing though. Haydn would be ideal for them, I think. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 03, 2013, 10:54:39 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 03, 2013, 10:45:15 AM
The sample clips sound very nice.

I don't know, Karl. I listened to the first movement clip of 77/1 (one of my favorite Haydn movements) and it sounded like four mangy cats in heat. I might pull a paulb here and avoid this CD just on the strength of 30 seconds :D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 03, 2013, 10:59:47 AM

Hah!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 03, 2013, 11:23:57 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 03, 2013, 10:54:39 AM
I don't know, Karl. I listened to the first movement clip of 77/1 (one of my favorite Haydn movements) and it sounded like four mangy cats in heat. I might pull a paulb here and avoid this CD just on the strength of 30 seconds :D

Sarge

Well, Sarge, they say the hearing is the second thing to go.... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 03, 2013, 03:38:44 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on April 03, 2013, 10:14:23 AM
It could be your CD is a bad one and could be replaced without the problem. Mine plays fine. But, as far as other recordings, I'd suggest the Festetics but their recordings are hard to find. Easier to find, and also very good is the L'Archibudelli recording of the Last Three String Quartets.

[asin]B0000029U1[/asin]

Good news/Bad news...My Quatuor Mosaiques Op. 77 is not damaged, Yay!! It's my computer's disc drive that was making it skip and pop. Booo!! Time for a computer repair.

In other news, this disc from L'Archibudelli is available on Spotify, I'm listening to it now and it's very good.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 03, 2013, 03:43:57 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 03, 2013, 03:38:44 PM
Good news/Bad news...My Quatuor Mosaiques Op. 77 is not damaged, Yay!! It's my computer's disc drive that was making it skip and pop. Booo!! Time for a computer repair.

In other news, this disc from L'Archibudelli is available on Spotify, I'm listening to it now and it's very good.

Yes it is. That was my first PI version and still my favorite. That's the nice thing about L'Archibudelli; they never suck! :)

8)

PS - man, that sucks about your computer. :(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 03, 2013, 03:45:49 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 03, 2013, 03:43:57 PM
Yes it is. That was my first PI version and still my favorite. That's the nice thing about L'Archibudelli; they never suck! :)

8)

PS - man, that sucks about your computer. :(

The drive has been acting up lately, it still has 2 months left on its warranty so hopefully it will be covered.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on April 04, 2013, 02:42:08 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 03, 2013, 09:53:37 AM
Two questions (well, one question, one comment looking for answers) for the Haus-mates.

1. I need some good recommendations for some Op.77 PI string quartets, other than Quatuor Mosaiques.

I listened to a lot of recordings of these quartets recently.

Top recommendations:

Ulbrich (Their recording of all the op 20s (different line up from the op 20 here) is highly recommended by me.
Pro Arte (op 77/1) (if you only listen to one op 77, this should be it)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51OiJ0ahAvL._SY450_.jpg) (http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_250/MI0001/034/MI0001034355.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

A notch below, but still very interesting

Juilliard (Testament)
Alban Berg Quartet (esp 77/2)

(http://img2.imagesbn.com/p/749677137229_p0_v1_s260x420.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/417rIzRsKfL.jpg)

A further notch below but still, I've kept my copy in case I change my mind

Jerusalem Quartet (everyone else loves this quartet -- so it's probably my fault for not listening properly. They sound a bit to genteel to/for me.)
Mosaiques (thrilling -- but they sound a bit glib to me by comparison with Ulbrich and Pro Arte.)
Amati (same)

Your posting reminds me that the one I want to hear is the Op 77/2 from the Vegh here -- I must get myself a copy of that. Does anyone know it?

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_250/MI0001/027/MI0001027492.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 04, 2013, 03:00:21 AM

Ah, more Op.77 and Op.20 recs (I always welcome more Op.20 recs, I'm a sucker for those fugue finales).

Thanks, Mandryka. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on April 04, 2013, 03:22:09 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 04, 2013, 03:00:21 AM
Ah, more Op.77 and Op.20 recs (I always welcome more Op.20 recs, I'm a sucker for those fugue finales).

Thanks, Mandryka. :)

The Ulbrich were an East German ensemble I think not well known. I think their earlier op 20s are the best I've heard, the cellist in particular is really special.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 04, 2013, 04:05:25 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on April 04, 2013, 02:42:08 AM
Pro Arte (op 77/1) (if you only listen to one op 77, this should be it)

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_250/MI0001/034/MI0001034355.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

And can be had cheap! Only €192 at Amazon DE (http://www.amazon.de/Plays-Haydn-Franck-Arte-Quartet/dp/B00000DGJY/ref=sr_1_17?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1365075936&sr=1-17&keywords=haydn+pro+arte) :D

Mandryka, do you know if that is the same performance on Testament's Pro Arte Haydn volume 2? (http://www.amazon.de/Haydn-27-String-Quartets-Vol/dp/B000003XKP/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1365075655&sr=1-2&keywords=haydn+pro+arte) If so, it's a slightly more reasonable price ;)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 04, 2013, 04:25:13 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 03, 2013, 10:54:39 AM
. . . it sounded like four mangy cats in heat.

You say that like it's a bad thing, Sarge : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 04, 2013, 04:44:43 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 04, 2013, 04:25:13 AM
You say that like it's a bad thing, Sarge : )

I'm quite familiar with the sound: We have a parking area in front of the house, enclosed by foilage on three sides. The neighborhood cats use it as a meeting place during certain periods of the year. The last thing I need is a recording mimicing the feline howls of love :D A PI performance shouldn't be ugly. The Mosaiques, Schuppanzigh, Apponyi, A'rchibudelli prove it needn't be.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on April 04, 2013, 04:48:34 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 04, 2013, 04:05:25 AM
And can be had cheap! Only €192 at Amazon DE (http://www.amazon.de/Plays-Haydn-Franck-Arte-Quartet/dp/B00000DGJY/ref=sr_1_17?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1365075936&sr=1-17&keywords=haydn+pro+arte) :D

Mandryka, do you know if that is the same performance on Testament's Pro Arte Haydn volume 2? (http://www.amazon.de/Haydn-27-String-Quartets-Vol/dp/B000003XKP/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1365075655&sr=1-2&keywords=haydn+pro+arte) If so, it's a slightly more reasonable price ;)

Sarge

I think so -- I think they only recorded it once. Maybe George will check as I think he has the Testament CDs and he has acces to spotify -- I listened on spotify.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 04, 2013, 04:58:15 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on April 04, 2013, 04:50:09 AM
Well, that is one person's opinion. I listened to the recording, for longer than 30 seconds, and ugly is not a word I would use to describe their playing.

Aw, he's just raggin' you. Hell, he likes the Pro Arte! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Octave on April 04, 2013, 05:56:38 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on April 04, 2013, 02:42:08 AM
Ulbrich (Their recording of all the op 20s (different line up from the op 20 here) is highly recommended by me.
Pro Arte (op 77/1) (if you only listen to one op 77, this should be it)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51OiJ0ahAvL._SY450_.jpg)

Quote from: Mandryka on April 04, 2013, 03:22:09 AM
The Ulbrich were an East German ensemble I think not well known. I think their earlier op 20s are the best I've heard, the cellist in particular is really special.

Mandryka, I wanted to make sure that the "earlier"/best Ulbrich Op. 20s that you mention are the following:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Bv1lvpyoL._SY300_.jpg)

though for the moment I cannot find #1-3; I have not looked hard for them yet, but are/were they available from the same label?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 04, 2013, 06:11:21 AM

Without going back to check, I owe it to dis Haus that I plunged into the quartets with the Amadeus Quartet, nor have I had any reason to repent me of that sonic decision : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 04, 2013, 07:15:35 AM

Quote from: Octave on April 04, 2013, 05:56:38 AM
Mandryka, I wanted to make sure that the "earlier"/best Ulbrich Op. 20s that you mention are the following:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Bv1lvpyoL._SY300_.jpg)

though for the moment I cannot find #1-3; I have not looked hard for them yet, but are/were they available from the same label?

I just ordered that disc from AmazonUS, Octave, but couldn't find #1-3 myself.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 04, 2013, 07:25:39 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 03, 2013, 09:53:37 AM
Two questions (well, one question, one comment looking for answers) for the Haus-mates.

1. I need some good recommendations for some Op.77 PI string quartets, other than Quatuor Mosaiques.

Hi Greg - now I've not looked ahead on this thread for the most recent pages, so this post may be redundant? Sorry - :)

But, I have @ least 2 sets of the Haydn SQs, mostly on period instruments - I own a lot of the Quatuor Festetics recordings on Arcana - really enjoy; their earlier recording on Quintana is also in my collection & includes Op. 77 & 103 - not sure about its availability? Good luck in your search - Dave

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-HfTpdfg/0/S/Haydn_Festetics77-S.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 04, 2013, 07:30:38 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on April 04, 2013, 07:25:39 AM
Hi Greg - now I've not looked ahead on this thread for the most recent pages, so this post may be redundant? Sorry - :)

But, I have @ least 2 sets of the Haydn SQs, mostly on period instruments - I own a lot of the Quatuor Festetics recordings on Arcana - really enjoy; their earlier recording on Quintana is also in my collection & includes Op. 77 & 103 - not sure about its availability? Good luck in your search - Dave

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-HfTpdfg/0/S/Haydn_Festetics77-S.jpg)

Truthfully, the door for Haydn recommendations never closes with me. ;)
The Quatuor Festetics is a group I've never listened to, but will definitely search them out.
Thanks, Dave!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 04, 2013, 07:40:27 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on April 04, 2013, 07:25:39 AM
Hi Greg - now I've not looked ahead on this thread for the most recent pages, so this post may be redundant? Sorry - :)

But, I have @ least 2 sets of the Haydn SQs, mostly on period instruments - I own a lot of the Quatuor Festetics recordings on Arcana - really enjoy; their earlier recording on Quintana is also in my collection & includes Op. 77 & 103 - not sure about its availability? Good luck in your search - Dave

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-HfTpdfg/0/S/Haydn_Festetics77-S.jpg)

Yes, I have that Quintana disk also, it is from the first time they recorded the quartets. I like that disk a lot, although I didn't recommend because I thought (possibly wrongly) that he would never find it available anyway. Generally the first series are not nearly as well-played as the second. Not true of this one though. :)

Availability of the Arcana set is spotty. Funny how sometimes they seem to be everywhere, and then, not so much. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 04, 2013, 07:58:29 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 04, 2013, 07:40:27 AM
Yes, I have that Quintana disk also, it is from the first time they recorded the quartets. I like that disk a lot, although I didn't recommend because I thought (possibly wrongly) that he would never find it available anyway. Generally the first series are not nearly as well-played as the second. Not true of this one though. :)

Hi Gurn - well coming up next in my listening queue are the Haydn SQs, Op. 77/103 - the two Quatuors, i.e. Festetics vs. Mosaiques! :)

Interestingly, the Mosaiques disc lists the third work as Op. 77/III but in () as Op. 103 (the Hoboken numbers given for the 3 SQs are H.III.81, H.III.82, & H.III.83) - assume that Haydn wrote these as a 'trio' set but why is the third one usually severed off and listed as Op. 103? I'm sure that I use to know but can't recall the circumstances @ the moment - any help (I suspect this will be @ your fingertips! :D).

BTW, found a used copy of the L'Archibudelli on Amazon for $8 and ordered - not really needed w/ the other two, but a favorite group of many here! Dave

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 04, 2013, 08:33:15 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on April 04, 2013, 07:58:29 AM
Hi Gurn - well coming up next in my listening queue are the Haydn SQs, Op. 77/103 - the two Quatuors, i.e. Festetics vs. Mosaiques! :)

Interestingly, the Mosaiques disc lists the third work as Op. 77/III but in () as Op. 103 (the Hoboken numbers given for the 3 SQs are H.III.81, H.III.82, & H.III.83) - assume that Haydn wrote these as a 'trio' set but why is the third one usually severed off and listed as Op. 103? I'm sure that I use to know but can't recall the circumstances @ the moment - any help (I suspect this will be @ your fingertips! :D).

BTW, found a used copy of the L'Archibudelli on Amazon for $8 and ordered - not really needed w/ the other two, but a favorite group of many here! Dave

Hey, Dave,
Yes, that Op 103 was originally intended to be the third one of Op 77, but there was a 5 year pause in between, and he finally gave up the effort and Griesinger ended up giving the parts that were complete (the 2 interior movements) to Breitkopf for publication, along with the little bit that Haydn had made from his song "Der Greis" (The Old Man) which Breitkopf did indeed publish at the end, by way of explanation as to why the quartet was unfinished. Pretty sure I wrote out the whole story in one of my essays (1805 ?).

You will like the L'Archibudelli version. Among other things it is the only version I know of that actually plays the little song at the end, which was what Haydn had requested. :(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on April 04, 2013, 09:34:38 AM

Quote from: Octave on April 04, 2013, 05:56:38 AM
Mandryka, I wanted to make sure that the "earlier"/best Ulbrich Op. 20s that you mention are the following:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Bv1lvpyoL._SY300_.jpg)

though for the moment I cannot find #1-3; I have not looked hard for them yet, but are/were they available from the same label?

Yes that's it, the whole thing from a Japanese reissue is here

http://www.amazon.com/HAYDN-STRINGS-NO-31-NO-36-ULBRICH-SQ/dp/B0006B9Z1S/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1365096780&sr=1-1&keywords=B0006B9Z1S

Or the first three op 20s here

http://www.amazon.com/String-Quartets-1-3-Haydn/dp/B000025P21

I first got to know about them because of a fabulous Ravel quartet that was uploaded on symphonyshare. You'll see if you go there the discussion.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on April 04, 2013, 09:49:00 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 04, 2013, 07:30:38 AM
Truthfully, the door for Haydn recommendations never closes with me. ;)
The Quatuor Festetics is a group I've never listened to, but will definitely search them out.
Thanks, Dave!

In op50 and op33 I really like what they do.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 04, 2013, 01:48:53 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 04, 2013, 08:33:15 AM
Hey, Dave,
Yes, that Op 103 was originally intended to be the third one of Op 77, but there was a 5 year pause in between, and he finally gave up the effort and Griesinger ended up giving the parts that were complete (the 2 interior movements) to Breitkopf for publication, along with the little bit that Haydn had made from his song "Der Greis" (The Old Man) which Breitkopf did indeed publish at the end, by way of explanation as to why the quartet was unfinished. Pretty sure I wrote out the whole story in one of my essays (1805 ?).

You will like the L'Archibudelli version. Among other things it is the only version I know of that actually plays the little song at the end, which was what Haydn had requested. :(

Thanks - now I remember the story (probably from reading your excellent reviews) - looking forward to the L'Archibudelli disc; I've acquired a lot of their recordings in the last 2-3 yrs and have enjoyed all! Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 05, 2013, 04:03:42 PM

Any Haus-mates heard this?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81jqcfR05KL._SL500_.jpg)

Great musicianship of course, the sound has a concert-hall distance to it, which works well with the balance. The real shocker is the finale of Le Matin , compared to my other (6) recordings and a few other times I compared online, this finale is anywhere from a minute-and-a-half to over three-minutes longer. It definitely fits, just not accustomed to this tempo. It feels more like Moderato, but nowhere near the Presto that many groups seem to use.

It's on Spotify, which is where I'm listening to it. On to Le Midi now, again, very impressive.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 05, 2013, 04:45:46 PM

It has been out for a while, I think that ALF and I discussed it a couple months back. Amazon don't carry it, nor US sellers in general, so it probably hasn't been imported yet. I will certainly have it though, and your description makes it that much more intriguing. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on April 05, 2013, 05:13:27 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 05, 2013, 04:45:46 PM
It has been out for a while, I think that ALF and I discussed it a couple months back. Amazon don't carry it, nor US sellers in general, so it probably hasn't been imported yet. I will certainly have it though, and your description makes it that much more intriguing. :)

8)

Amazon isn't America, dear Gurn. 8) :)

http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=8828575&style=music

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on April 05, 2013, 05:18:16 PM

Prestoclassical lists it, albeit not on sale ($17.25).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 05, 2013, 05:39:21 PM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on April 05, 2013, 05:13:27 PM
Amazon isn't America, dear Gurn. 8) :)

http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=8828575&style=music

Well, as near as dammit! :D I find it odd the CDU has that while Amazon only have the downloads. And 1 used copy that is going for more than the new one you show. :-\

Thanks, Gordo,

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 05, 2013, 05:41:45 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 05, 2013, 05:18:16 PM
Prestoclassical lists it, albeit not on sale ($17.25).

Good price. I've never bought from them; perhaps I need to be less provincial. Although I bought the Novalis Haydn Masses disk I am listening to from a place in Prague, so that was pretty daring for me!! :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnOrganMassesHaselbckcover.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on April 05, 2013, 05:59:19 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 05, 2013, 05:41:45 PM
Good price. I've never bought from them; perhaps I need to be less provincial. Although I bought the Novalis Haydn Masses disk I am listening to from a place in Prague, so that was pretty daring for me!! :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnOrganMassesHaselbckcover.jpg)

8)

They usually have some worthwhile sales, plus often because they're in the UK they can ship some new releases before they're released in the US. At the moment they have a sale on "early music" in general, but for some reason this CD is not included. (I haven't checked to see what Haydn might be part of that sale.)

Shipping is comparable to Arkivmusic; it can take from 2 to 4 weeks to get to me. Only caveat is that the system they use charges your credit card at the time you place the order, not the time they ship they order (which can be a week later for many of their items)--even if you're pre ordering a CD that won't be released until a month after you place the order.

Also, at Christmas time, they seem to get backed up/overloaded, meaning you may have to email them with a polite "why hasn't my order shipped". But they're always great on customer service, and the one problem I had with an order turned out to be the fault of the US Post Office, not Presto.

Also, despite the fact that your order will be in dollars, your credit card will impose its usual foreign transaction fees (same as Amazon Italy, etc.).

I order from them fairly regularly, which probably tells you my overall opinion of them.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 05, 2013, 06:08:46 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 05, 2013, 05:59:19 PM
They usually have some worthwhile sales, plus often because they're in the UK they can ship some new releases before they're released in the US. At the moment they have a sale on "early music" in general, but for some reason this CD is not included. (I haven't checked to see what Haydn might be part of that sale.)

Shipping is comparable to Arkivmusic; it can take from 2 to 4 weeks to get to me. Only caveat is that the system they use charges your credit card at the time you place the order, not the time they ship they order (which can be a week later for many of their items)--even if you're pre ordering a CD that won't be released until a month after you place the order.

Also, at Christmas time, they seem to get backed up/overloaded, meaning you may have to email them with a polite "why hasn't my order shipped". But they're always great on customer service, and the one problem I had with an order turned out to be the fault of the US Post Office, not Presto.

Also, despite the fact that your order will be in dollars, your credit card will impose its usual foreign transaction fees (same as Amazon Italy, etc.).

I order from them fairly regularly, which probably tells you my overall opinion of them.

I have used another UK vendor to good effect, MDT, but usually if they don't have it I back away since I am still not comfortable with dealing with a place that I can't go there and punch them in the nose if I don't get my disk. It's the Texas way. :D

Novalis is just a hard label to find. This place in Prague, Online Express, is an AMP vendor now, and they seem to have a regular stock of Novalis. I have a couple more on my wishlist with them that I will be ordering this month. Price is about the norm for a high-end disk ($21.99) with AMP s & h, and I got it in 10 days, so no complaints there!! I suspect that Presto didn't list it because it isn't particularly new, it's from the early 1990's. Not OOP though, just... rare! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on April 05, 2013, 06:19:00 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 05, 2013, 06:08:46 PM
I have used another UK vendor to good effect, MDT, but usually if they don't have it I back away since I am still not comfortable with dealing with a place that I can't go there and punch them in the nose if I don't get my disk. It's the Texas way. :D

Novalis is just a hard label to find. This place in Prague, Online Express, is an AMP vendor now, and they seem to have a regular stock of Novalis. I have a couple more on my wishlist with them that I will be ordering this month. Price is about the norm for a high-end disk ($21.99) with AMP s & h, and I got it in 10 days, so no complaints there!! I suspect that Presto didn't list it because it isn't particularly new, it's from the early 1990's. Not OOP though, just... rare! :)

8)

I have found it easier to deal with Presto than with MDT, and the shipping charges are much easier to figure out, to say the least. Also the packaging Presto uses seems to be better than MDT. I've had packages from MDT which seemed to have gotten smashed around considerably in transit, even accounting for the possible attentions of the US Customs. Presto's parcels have surviived admirably.

Another good packer of parcels is JPC in Germany, btw.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on April 06, 2013, 12:16:42 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 05, 2013, 05:39:21 PM
I find it odd the CDU has that while Amazon only have the downloads. And 1 used copy that is going for more than the new one you show. :-\

8)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0097RFE6M/?tag=goodmusicguideco

You may have to check with them as to the identity of the disc, just to be on the safer side.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 06, 2013, 05:37:56 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on April 06, 2013, 12:16:42 AM
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0097RFE6M/?tag=goodmusicguideco

You may have to check with them as to the identity of the disc, just to be on the safer side.

The typical example of one of Amazon's double listings;

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008R3JMJ2/ref=dm_dp_cdp?ie=UTF8&qid=1365255378&s=music&sr=8-1

I hate when they do that; and why?? >:(

Thanks, Nav, the Ultimate Search Machine Guy!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on April 06, 2013, 06:31:31 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 06, 2013, 05:37:56 AM
The typical example of one of Amazon's double listings;

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008R3JMJ2/ref=dm_dp_cdp?ie=UTF8&qid=1365255378&s=music&sr=8-1

I hate when they do that; and why?? >:(

Thanks, Nav, the Ultimate Search Machine Guy!

8)

You're welcome, Gurn. It's not so much of searching as finding the product at one Amazon and changing the TLD to see if there's an equivalent page at another. :)

All this talk of this trio of symphonies has now made me play a concert recording of Harnoncourt leading the CMW. 6, 7, 8, and 94. (Quite a jump!)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 06, 2013, 06:34:56 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on April 06, 2013, 06:31:31 AM
You're welcome, Gurn. It's not so much of searching as finding the product at one Amazon and changing the TLD to see if there's an equivalent page at another. :)

All this talk of this trio of symphonies has now made me play a concert recording of Harnoncourt leading the CMW. 6, 7, 8, and 94. (Quite a jump!)

Ah, they're tricky, these GMG'ers. :)

I like that Harnoncourt version. In fact, the Pinnock was one of the very few that I didn't like. And a 94 thrown in. I get quite a jump there too. :D :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 06, 2013, 08:53:13 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on April 06, 2013, 06:31:31 AM
All this talk of this trio of symphonies has now made me play a concert recording of Harnoncourt leading the CMW. 6, 7, 8, and 94. (Quite a jump!)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 06, 2013, 06:34:56 AM
I like that Harnoncourt version. In fact, the Pinnock was one of the very few that I didn't like. And a 94 thrown in. I get quite a jump there too. :D :D
8)

+1 for Harnoncourt/Haydn from me as well, I've always enjoyed his live-performance atmosphere, even if the sound quality isn't top notch (Performance > Sound Quality)

Another set of 6-8 I've been listening to is...

[asin]B000MGBT9S[/asin]

from Günther Herbig and the Staatskapelle Berlin. Well recorded, and an interesting contrast from the HIP-pier and PI performances. I believe this is a re-issue from 1973.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 07, 2013, 07:15:37 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on April 07, 2013, 06:33:14 AM
I've been listening to the various Haydn Op. 77 recordings on Spotify and found one by the Edding Quartet (http://edding-quartet.com/pages/en/index.html) which sounded very good to my ears.

I Googled them and found this amazing information:

All fantastic news to me.

Anyone else aware of this new period instrument quartet? Spotify has the Haydn recording.

:)

Thanks, S.A., I will be on Spotify later and will definitely look for it, I've been enjoying the Op.77 quite a bit myself lately. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 07, 2013, 08:20:22 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on April 07, 2013, 06:33:14 AM
I've been listening to the various Haydn Op. 77 recordings on Spotify and found one by the Edding Quartet (http://edding-quartet.com/pages/en/index.html) which sounded very good to my ears.

I Googled them and found this amazing information:

All fantastic news to me.

Anyone else aware of this new period instrument quartet? Spotify has the Haydn recording.

:)

SA,
Thanks for that info. Never heard of 'em, but that means nothing. I just bought it at Amazon, we'll give it a spin next week. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 07, 2013, 08:33:10 AM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Ir-OZwVLL._SX300_.jpg)

Is this the disc? Amazon's MP3 is $10 cheaper than the disc, wondering about the quality. Most newer releases seem to have good MP3 sound. Been going that route a lot lately, cheaper in $$ and less storage space required. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 07, 2013, 08:38:31 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 07, 2013, 08:33:10 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Ir-OZwVLL._SX300_.jpg)

Is this the disc? Amazon's MP3 is $10 cheaper than the disc, wondering about the quality. Most newer releases seem to have good MP3 sound. Been going that route a lot lately, cheaper in $$ and less storage space required. ;)

I got it from import-CD's for 11.50. I don't buy Haydn (or Mozart) as downloads, but I get other stuff. Since most of my playing time comes on the MP3 player anyway, might as well. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 07, 2013, 09:23:14 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 07, 2013, 08:33:10 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Ir-OZwVLL._SX300_.jpg)

Is this the disc? Amazon's MP3 is $10 cheaper than the disc, wondering about the quality. Most newer releases seem to have good MP3 sound. Been going that route a lot lately, cheaper in $$ and less storage space required. ;)

There is a another plus to buying the mp3 instead of the disc. You won't have to look at the ugly cover 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 07, 2013, 09:44:47 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 07, 2013, 09:23:14 AM
There is a another plus to buying the mp3 instead of the disc. You won't have to look at the ugly cover 8)

Sarge

Good solid point there, Sarge. I'm not sure at what time in his life Haydn looked like that. And I thought I had all the pictures, too... :(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 08, 2013, 03:54:43 AM

I know I can never catch you up, Gurn. But it is always an enlightening experience when I give it a try : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on April 10, 2013, 05:31:13 AM

Does anyone know if Haydn was aware of J S Bach? And, if so, whether he had any opinions of J S Bach's music?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on April 10, 2013, 05:59:15 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on April 10, 2013, 05:31:13 AM
Does anyone know if Haydn was aware of J S Bach? And, if so, whether he had any opinions of J S Bach's music?

There are some answers here:

http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~cmckay/papers/musicology/BachReception.pdf

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on April 10, 2013, 06:05:05 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on April 10, 2013, 05:59:15 AM
There are some answers here:

http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~cmckay/papers/musicology/BachReception.pdf

:)

Thank you for the link.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2013, 06:19:56 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on April 10, 2013, 05:31:13 AM
Does anyone know if Haydn was aware of J S Bach? And, if so, whether he had any opinions of J S Bach's music?

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on April 10, 2013, 05:59:15 AM
There are some answers here:

http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~cmckay/papers/musicology/BachReception.pdf

:)

Interesting paper. Interesting question, actually. The mere fact that Haydn had those manuscripts only answers the question of whether he was aware of the existence of Sebastian Bach. Clearly he was, although there is no way to know if he got those papers in 1755 or in 1805. Due to Bach's introduction to Mozart by Von Sweiten, I think it highly likely that Mozart, in turn, had a hand in making Bach known to Haydn, with whom he spent a lot of time before his death. I don't see a Bachian influence on Haydn's music though. The fugal styles he used in his late masses are clearly traceable to Fux whom he admired greatly. Someone who knows the technical aspects of such things will probably be able to see a Handelian influence in "The Creation".

Now, if Bach's influence on his son Emanuel can be passed along, there is a solid Haydn connection there, out of his own mouth. Probably not though. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on April 10, 2013, 06:26:28 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2013, 06:19:56 AM
Interesting paper. Interesting question, actually. The mere fact that Haydn had those manuscripts only answers the question of whether he was aware of the existence of Sebastian Bach. Clearly he was, although there is no way to know if he got those papers in 1755 or in 1805. Due to Bach's introduction to Mozart by Von Sweiten, I think it highly likely that Mozart, in turn, had a hand in making Bach known to Haydn, with whom he spent a lot of time before his death. I don't see a Bachian influence on Haydn's music though. The fugal styles he used in his late masses are clearly traceable to Fux whom he admired greatly. Someone who knows the technical aspects of such things will probably be able to see a Handelian influence in "The Creation".

Now, if Bach's influence on his son Emanuel can be passed along, there is a solid Haydn connection there, out of his own mouth. Probably not though. :)

8)

This is speculation on my part, but don't you see a connection between stylus fanatasticus and CPE Bach's later style? Just because they're so free and improvisatory. Of course CPEB may have been aware of the German Toccata tradition through other composers, but more likely he'd have been aware of his farther's Buxtehude influenced works.

My own feeling is that if there is a Bach/Haydn influence, it'll come through the stylus fantasticus rather than through anything to do with counterpoint.

I repeat, this is all speculative, made on the basis of too casual listening probably. And I have no background in music history.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on April 10, 2013, 06:37:07 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on April 10, 2013, 06:26:28 AM
My own feeling is that if there is a Bach/Haydn influence, it'll come through the stylus fantasticus rather than through anything to do with counterpoint.

Are you suggesting that Haydn's music taken as a whole, an exemplar of the High Classical style, has elements that are free and improvisatory? Could you provide an example or two which sways you towards this speculation.

Disclaimer: no background in either music theory or music history.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2013, 06:57:18 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on April 10, 2013, 06:37:07 AM
Are you suggesting that Haydn's music taken as a whole, an exemplar of the High Classical style, has elements that are free and improvisatory? Could you provide an example or two which sways you towards this speculation.

Disclaimer: no background in either music theory or music history.

I think Haydn's early variations for keyboard are somewhat free and improvisatory. Listen to Hob 17:1, the Capriccio & Variations on the folk song "Acht Sauschneider müssen sein" (It takes 8 Strong Men). It's from 1765, and I feel like it is very fluid in what it is going to do next. Not to the extent of CPE Bach, of course, but Bach is famously non-formal even in his so-called 'sonatas'.

8)

Disclaimer: no background in music theory; an amateur but substantial one in music history. (since we're into full disclosure today. :D )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on April 10, 2013, 07:03:17 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2013, 06:57:18 AM
I think Haydn's early variations for keyboard are somewhat free and improvisatory. Listen to Hob 17:1, the Capriccio & Variations on the folk song "Acht Sauschneider müssen sein" (It takes 8 Strong Men). It's from 1765, and I feel like it is very fluid in what it is going to do next.

Of course, there will always be a piece here or there -- they don't directly jump into the Pool of Profundity early on, do they? ;) From what I read of Mandryka's post -- and I could easily be wrong -- he seems to suggest that you can draw a connection between Sr. and Haydn by looking through much of the latter's oeuvre.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on April 10, 2013, 07:14:04 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2013, 06:19:56 AM
Interesting paper. Interesting question, actually. The mere fact that Haydn had those manuscripts only answers the question of whether he was aware of the existence of Sebastian Bach. Clearly he was, although there is no way to know if he got those papers in 1755 or in 1805. Due to Bach's introduction to Mozart by Von Sweiten, I think it highly likely that Mozart, in turn, had a hand in making Bach known to Haydn, with whom he spent a lot of time before his death. I don't see a Bachian influence on Haydn's music though. The fugal styles he used in his late masses are clearly traceable to Fux whom he admired greatly. Someone who knows the technical aspects of such things will probably be able to see a Handelian influence in "The Creation".

Now, if Bach's influence on his son Emanuel can be passed along, there is a solid Haydn connection there, out of his own mouth. Probably not though. :)

8)

Yes, datation issues are fundamental here. But no doubt those two manuscripts are tremendously suggestive: the B-Minor Mass (the "Catholic" Mass, by opposition to Lutheran, short masses) and the WTC, as both of them are currently considered as crowns of his vocal and keyboard outputs, respectively. I think it was not a cheap thing to get those manuscripts in Haydn's times, which maybe could be indicative of a strong interest on them.

Additionally, as the paper suggests, I think the role of Bach as an educator was uninterrupted since his death. Certainly he disappeared as an artist "on stage", but also apparently he never lost the acknowledgement as an educator (which brings again towards the WTC). There is an interesting essay of the South African Nobel Prize J. M. Coetzee about this issue.

As usual, a lot of unanswered questions. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2013, 07:15:17 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on April 10, 2013, 07:03:17 AM
Of course, there will always be a piece here or there -- they don't directly jump into the Pool of Profundity early on, do they? ;) From what I read of Mandryka's post -- and I could easily be wrong -- he seems to suggest that you can draw a connection between Sr. and Haydn by looking through much of the latter's oeuvre.

Yeah, I was trying to avoid going there because my knowledge of Baroque alleyways is abysmally dim. I have some fiddle playing but it was already old when Sebastian was born, I think. When I listen to Haydn I only hear Haydn. I'm not skilled at that other stuff. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2013, 07:31:44 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on April 10, 2013, 07:14:04 AM
Yes, datation issues are fundamental here. But no doubt those two manuscripts are tremendously suggestive: the B-Minor Mass (the "Catholic" Mass, by opposition to Lutheran, short masses) and the WTC, as both of them are currently considered as crowns of his vocal and keyboard outputs, respectively. I think it was not a cheap thing to get those manuscripts in Haydn's times, which maybe could be indicative of a strong interest on them.

Additionally, as the paper suggests, I think the role of Bach as an educator was uninterrupted since his death. Certainly he disappeared as an artist "on stage", but also apparently he never lost the acknowledgement as an educator (which brings again towards the WTC). There is an interesting essay of the South African Nobel Prize J. M. Coetzee about this issue.

As usual, a lot of unanswered questions. :)

The likelihood is that they were a gift. Haydn bought music by the ream, but he also received a lot of it as gifts. Sometimes these things are documented, but clearly not here else the guy would have noted it.

Beethoven became a great keyboard player due to playing the WTC every day from early age. This is a well-documented part of his biography. So no doubt the pedantic aspect of Bach lived on. I wouldn't be even vaguely surprised to discover that Haydn had the WTC since he was a boy. Seriously. Just never read anything about it (and I've read a lot!). I would be very surprised to discover that he had the b minor mass early on though. That is a long way from being a teaching tool; almost had to be part of his art collection. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on April 10, 2013, 07:52:20 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on April 10, 2013, 06:37:07 AM
Are you suggesting that Haydn's music taken as a whole, an exemplar of the High Classical style, has elements that are free and improvisatory? Could you provide an example or two which sways you towards this speculation.

Disclaimer: no background in either music theory or music history.

Well take the second movement Hob 19 or the first movement of symphony 80. (Two of my favouritest pieces of music in the world)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on April 10, 2013, 08:03:44 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on April 10, 2013, 07:52:20 AM
Well take the second movement Hob 19 or the first movement of symphony 80. (Two of my favouritest pieces of music in the world)

Thanks, but Hob 19? (Do you mean the D major piano sonata, No. 30?) And I haven't yet heard the D minor symphony, so this should be a good excuse.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on April 10, 2013, 08:04:33 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2013, 07:31:44 AM
So no doubt the pedantic aspect of Bach lived on.

8)

Was "pedantic" the word you intended to write, Gurn? (I had waited "pedagogic"). Or was it just an unconscious manifestation of your ideas? ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2013, 08:10:41 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on April 10, 2013, 08:04:33 AM
Was "pedantic" the word you intended to write, Gurn? (I had waited "pedagogic"). Or was it just an unconscious manifestation of your ideas? ;)

No, no, you're right, pedagogic. I get easily diverted from my mission while here at work. Freudian slips will sneak in now and again. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2013, 08:11:56 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on April 10, 2013, 08:03:44 AM
Thanks, but Hob 19? (Do you mean the D major piano sonata, No. 30?) And I haven't yet heard the D minor symphony, so this should be a good excuse.

Both lovely works, if he does indeed mean Hob 16:19.... I suspect you'll like the symphony whether it's fantasticus or not. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 10, 2013, 08:12:36 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2013, 08:10:41 AM
No, no, you're right, pedagogic. I get easily diverted from my mission while here at work. Freudian slips will sneak in now and again. :D

8)

(* chortle *)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 10, 2013, 08:22:50 AM

As much as I love Haydn, and have built quite a collection, I still come across new pieces (to me) that surprise and delight.
Today that piece is String Quartet No. 42 in C major, Op. 54, No. 2, . The first three movements follow the common structure of the 4-movement quartet, but ends with an unexpected final movement marked as Adagio-Presto-Adagio, with the Presto only showing up briefly in the middle, and ending with a quiet whisper. I've only heard the Kodaly recording and the Endellion String Quartet, but would like to hear a PI performance of this one. Anyone who hasn't heard Op.54, No.2 should do so, another Haydn gem, for sure.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51gbB2m74sL._SY300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51SGL3AWVbL._SY300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on April 10, 2013, 10:03:07 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on April 10, 2013, 08:03:44 AM
Thanks, but Hob 19? (Do you mean the D major piano sonata, No. 30?) And I haven't yet heard the D minor symphony, so this should be a good excuse.

Sorry, this numbering is a pain. Hob 16/19. Try to hear Robert Hill and Ivo Pogorelich.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on April 10, 2013, 10:18:03 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 10, 2013, 08:22:50 AM
As much as I love Haydn, and have built quite a collection, I still come across new pieces (to me) that surprise and delight.
Today that piece is String Quartet No. 42 in C major, Op. 54, No. 2, . The first three movements follow the common structure of the 4-movement quartet, but ends with an unexpected final movement marked as Adagio-Presto-Adagio, with the Presto only showing up briefly in the middle, and ending with a quiet whisper. I've only heard the Kodaly recording and the Endellion String Quartet, but would like to hear a PI performance of this one. Anyone who hasn't heard Op.54, No.2 should do so, another Haydn gem, for sure.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51gbB2m74sL._SY300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51SGL3AWVbL._SY300_.jpg)

This is an astonishingly good quartet.

I know two good performances p on record. Val in a post somewhere on this site put me on to a recording of it by the Lindsay Quartet which is excellent. And even better, much better, there's a very early record from The Juilliard, made with their first lineup, never on CD, but it's on symphonyshare.

(https://vinyl-west.de/catalog/images/cbs61549.JPG)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61271HW8A8L._SY300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 10, 2013, 10:23:21 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on April 10, 2013, 10:18:03 AM
This is an astonishingly good quartet.

I know two good performances p on record. Val in a post somewhere on this site put me on to a recording of it by the Lindsay Quartet which is excellent. And even better, much better, there's a very early record from The Juilliard, made with their first lineup, never on CD, but it's on symphonyshare.

(https://vinyl-west.de/catalog/images/cbs61549.JPG)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61271HW8A8L._SY300_.jpg)

Thanks for the info, Mandryka. I have the Lindsay's Op.76 4-6 disc so I'm aware of their talent, will definitely have to get a listen to their Op. 54. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2013, 10:41:06 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 10, 2013, 10:23:21 AM
Thanks for the info, Mandryka. I have the Lindsay's Op.76 4-6 disc so I'm aware of their talent, will definitely have to get a listen to their Op. 54. :)

I had to go play it to remind myself which one it was. Only took 1 bar... :) Yes, that is a highly entertaining piece of work. That's why questions we had like the other night, what is your favorite....? are so difficult. This one is so cool! It's surprising how relatively few recordings there are of Op 54-55 compared to 64, or 76 or 77 for example. I have your Endellion on Virgin, and the Kodaly too (my first). Rght now I'm greatly enjoying the Festetics, but I doubt I have more than 2 or 3 others. Certainly not that interesting looking Juilliard (they are a special circumstance in re my "no old shit" rule). :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 10, 2013, 11:50:24 PM

Spent part of this afternoon skimming/catching up on about 6 months worth of this thread. Gurn, you should be proud of the fact that Haydn has the most active composer thread on the forum...

...can I just say how chuffed I am that Holmboe held Haydn in such high esteem? High fives all around. :D

Apart from that, the reading just reminded me of all the ways I want to expand my Haydn collection. There's such a LOT to expand into. All of which I would expect to be highly enjoyable music, of course.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on April 11, 2013, 12:30:36 AM

Quote from: orfeo on April 10, 2013, 11:50:24 PM
Gurn, you should be proud of the fact that Haydn has the most active composer thread on the forum...

Second-most, I'm sorry to say. The Brianites in cahoots with Google, GCHQ and the NSA, have conspired to make the Havergal Brian thread hold the Number One position.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 11, 2013, 01:19:26 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on April 11, 2013, 12:30:36 AM
Second-most, I'm sorry to say. The Brianites in cahoots with Google, GCHQ and the NSA, have conspired to make the Havergal Brian thread hold the Number One position.

Not lately. They've only managed about 25 pages in the last 6 months, compared to over 40 here.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 11, 2013, 02:02:56 AM

Landed yesterday:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 11, 2013, 02:45:54 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 11, 2013, 02:02:56 AM
Landed yesterday:

Woot!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2013, 05:18:19 AM

Quote from: orfeo on April 10, 2013, 11:50:24 PM
Spent part of this afternoon skimming/catching up on about 6 months worth of this thread. Gurn, you should be proud of the fact that Haydn has the most active composer thread on the forum...

...can I just say how chuffed I am that Holmboe held Haydn in such high esteem? High fives all around. :D

Apart from that, the reading just reminded me of all the ways I want to expand my Haydn collection. There's such a LOT to expand into. All of which I would expect to be highly enjoyable music, of course.

Thank you very kindly, Orfeo. All credit must go to The Man, however. I merely invited him to the party and introduced him around to my friends. He took it quite well from then on. :D

We would be delighted to help you do your shopping, of course. It is a main preoccupation here. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2013, 05:21:19 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on April 11, 2013, 12:30:36 AM
Second-most, I'm sorry to say. The Brianites in cahoots with Google, GCHQ and the NSA, have conspired to make the Havergal Brian thread hold the Number One position.

Pretty sure that we have them thoroughly outclassed in the spending aspect though. :D (at least I do, according to my wife). :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2013, 05:23:02 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 11, 2013, 02:02:56 AM
Landed yesterday:

Splendid, Karl!! I'm delighted for you; expect a manifold increase in listening pleasure. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 11, 2013, 05:24:25 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2013, 05:23:02 AM
Splendid, Karl!! I'm delighted for you; expect a manifold increase in listening pleasure. 0:)

8)

The up-tick in sonic delight has been immediate, and seems entirely sustainable : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 11, 2013, 05:29:58 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2013, 05:18:19 AM
We would be delighted to help you do your shopping, of course. It is a main preoccupation here. :)

...

...To be honest, when it comes to shopping, this forum scares the crap out of me.

- orfeo, who still has, from his purchases around September/October, about 50% left to listen to.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2013, 05:32:18 AM

Quote from: orfeo on April 11, 2013, 05:29:58 AM
...

...To be honest, when it comes to shopping, this forum scares the crap out of me.

- orfeo, who still has, from his purchases around September/October, about 50% left to listen to.

:D :D

(me too! :o )

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2013, 05:33:23 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 11, 2013, 05:24:25 AM
The up-tick in sonic delight has been immediate, and seems entirely sustainable : )

Great! Super! Brilliant!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on April 11, 2013, 06:01:03 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2013, 05:21:19 AM
Pretty sure that we have them thoroughly outclassed in the spending aspect though. :D (at least I do, according to my wife). :)

8)

Not fair. The number of Brian recordings out there (including air-checks, in-house and all) would probably be less than the number of the 'Surprise' symphonies alone.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2013, 06:05:51 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on April 11, 2013, 06:01:03 AM
Not fair. The number of Brian recordings out there (including air-checks, in-house and all) would probably be less than the number of the 'Surprise' symphonies alone.

You've firmly grasped my point, Navneeth. :D I have personally done my share by not spending a cent on Brian in the last 3 years. It balances out those Haydnistas who felt the need to experiment. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on April 11, 2013, 07:15:59 AM

Those Brianites must now be using some mind-controlling device, as now even we, here, are talking about Brian (regardless of whether in the best of terms or not). Orfero, I suspect, is one of them. Infiltration and inception successfully completed.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2013, 07:40:58 AM

Harrumph... well, speaking of Haydn, I am currently working on part 2 of the divertimentos essay. Nav, the more I work with that table code, the more I admire your perseverance in getting the original tables set up. I've merely hijacked your code.

Does anyone take or not take issue with my premise that Op 1 & 2 should be included in Hoboken II rather than Hob III? I should have thought that would be more controversial. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 11, 2013, 07:43:56 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2013, 07:40:58 AM
Does anyone take or not take issue with my premise that Op 1 & 2 should be included in Hoboken II rather than Hob III? I should have thought that would be more controversial. :)

8)

I am not competent to form an opinion . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2013, 07:50:49 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 11, 2013, 07:43:56 AM
I am not competent to form an opinion . . . .

I can furnish more info; I actually intend to do so in part 2. But the essential issue, IMO, is this: simply because publishers and musicians of the 1760's & '70's were desperate for some repertoire, is that sufficient reason for a cataloger in the 20th century to adopt their version of things for the sake of tradition, or should he have faced up to the fact that these works belong in a different group?

IMO, Hoboken should have been repairing errors rather than perpetuating them. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on April 11, 2013, 07:57:46 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2013, 07:40:58 AM
Nav, the more I work with that table code, the more I admire your perseverance in getting the original tables set up. I've merely hijacked your code.

Perseverance?! Running a script which repeatedly prints the table code and its contents row after row, all of which is completed in a blink of an eye, doesn't require any of that! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2013, 08:16:02 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on April 11, 2013, 08:01:34 AM
It all depends on whether there has grown up a body of literature based on the traditional listings and if departing from that tradition might lead to confusion and a lack of certainty about what has been written about the works in question and how to find all the articles.

Well, there really wasn't, pre-Hoboken. There certainly is now though, so that much harder to correct. Before Hoboken there were the actual published scores, by such as Pleyel and Breitkopf. It would have been oh-so-easy at that time (early 1950's) to set things right. :-\

Quote from: Opus106 on April 11, 2013, 07:57:46 AM
Perseverance?! Running a script which repeatedly prints the table code and its contents row after row, all of which is completed in a blink of an eye, doesn't require any of that! ;D

Oh, a script, eh? You rascal, I did all the changing manually. I don't know from scripts. Is there a published history of them? :D :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 11, 2013, 09:19:48 AM

Nav is indeed a rascal, albeit a likeable one.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on April 11, 2013, 09:35:39 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2013, 08:16:02 AM
Oh, a script, eh? You rascal, I did all the changing manually. I don't know from scripts. Is there a published history of them? :D :D

8)

I don't have it with me, but it's pretty easy to re-write.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2013, 10:11:03 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on April 11, 2013, 09:35:39 AM
I don't have it with me, but it's pretty easy to re-write.

Not if you are clueless. I need an instruction manual, which I can probably find online except I don't even know the name of the language I'm working with. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on April 11, 2013, 10:27:48 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2013, 10:11:03 AM
Not if you are clueless. I need an instruction manual, which I can probably find online except I don't even know the name of the language I'm working with. :D

8)

Erm... of course. (I didn't mean to say that it'll happen with the flick of a switch; just that it wouldn't take long for me to recreate it. ;)) This can be achieved with almost any language which can read text from a file and write things to a file (which is almost every language). I did it with Python. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2013, 10:54:53 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on April 11, 2013, 10:27:48 AM
Erm... of course. (I didn't mean to say that it'll happen with the flick of a switch; just that it wouldn't take long for me to recreate it. ;)) This can be achieved with almost any language which can read text from a file and write things to a file (which is almost every language). I did it with Python. :)

Oh, Python, eh? And I'm just creating an array and recursing text into it? I actually do all my writing in Word, that's why I copy and paste your code and then just keep adding to it. It's primitive, but then, so am I, really. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 16, 2013, 05:02:00 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 05, 2013, 04:03:42 PM
Any Haus-mates heard this?

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKuijken6-8cover_zps3144efbc.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/Gurn_Blanston/media/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKuijken6-8cover_zps3144efbc.jpg.html)

Great musicianship of course, the sound has a concert-hall distance to it, which works well with the balance. The real shocker is the finale of Le Matin , compared to my other (6) recordings and a few other times I compared online, this finale is anywhere from a minute-and-a-half to over three-minutes longer. It definitely fits, just not accustomed to this tempo. It feels more like Moderato, but nowhere near the Presto that many groups seem to use.

It's on Spotify, which is where I'm listening to it. On to Le Midi now, again, very impressive.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSymphoniesAngerercover_zpsba564877.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/Gurn_Blanston/media/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSymphoniesAngerercover_zpsba564877.jpg.html)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnApollo6-8cover.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/Gurn_Blanston/media/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnApollo6-8cover.jpg.html)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Goodman06_08cover_zpsde36e627.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/Gurn_Blanston/media/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Goodman06_08cover_zpsde36e627.jpg.html)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHaselboumlck6-8cover_zps1dbf5bd3.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/Gurn_Blanston/media/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHaselboumlck6-8cover_zps1dbf5bd3.jpg.html)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKuijken6-8cover_zps3144efbc.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/Gurn_Blanston/media/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKuijken6-8cover_zps3144efbc.jpg.html)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HMSymphonies6-8Freiburgcover_zpsc82018ac.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/Gurn_Blanston/media/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HMSymphonies6-8Freiburgcover_zpsc82018ac.jpg.html)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HogwoodVol03cover_zpsf33d58b8.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/Gurn_Blanston/media/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HogwoodVol03cover_zpsf33d58b8.jpg.html)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHarnoncourtSymphoniescover_zps97d7432b.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/Gurn_Blanston/media/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHarnoncourtSymphoniescover_zps97d7432b.jpg.html)

Greg,
I was curious enough about your observation to finally drop a dime on this disk and when it finally came yesterday, to compare it to the versions that I already have in stock.

First let me note that the correct tempo indication for the finale is 'Allegro'. And then also I want to make a very brief comment upon the oddity, observed by myself before but never quite explained, that overall timing and the perception of speed are not always the same thing. Perhaps someone knows why the fastest timing isn't always the fastest 'seeming' to the ear? Or why 2 versions with identical timing don't sound the same speed. Odd to me.....

OK, so ranked in order of perceived fleetness;

Hogwood - 4:23
Goodman - 4:23
Haselböck - 4:30
Freiburg - 4:46
Angerer - 4:46
Harnoncourt - 4:36
Apollo Ens - 4:36
Kuijken - 6:02

Unquestionably slower, exactly as you noted. A pace that Beethoven would later call 'Allegro, ma non troppo'. :) However, I think it is closer to what the correct tempo and pace should be. It has plenty of breathing room, and the obligatto instruments in particular have plenty of room to work out. I like it, just like you say, after getting accustomed to. Thanks for pointing that out. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 16, 2013, 05:29:23 PM

I just ordered it [Kuikjen] from Presto myself, Gurn. One you didn't mention, that I do have, is Marriner' at 3:06, I'll need to revisit this evening, but I have a feeling that he's leaving out a repeat, perhaps?

Also, here's some other Haydn I just recently purchased along with the Kuijken...

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 14, 2013, 08:44:26 PM
One Schubert...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81lD0HlvlIL._SL300_.jpg)

And a bunch of Haydn...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81ZEmUZKbOL._SL300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41ESdKR8YUL._SY300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51swl7x7QZL._SX300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51eSopvnXaL._SY300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51N-8-y4g6L._SY300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Ir-OZwVLL._SX300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81jqcfR05KL._SL300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517WquZBeNL._SY300_.jpg)

...the one with the profile of the unknown man is String Quartets Op. 77 and Op. 103 performed by the Edding Quartet, which I listened to on Spotify and it is phenomenal, might be the best 77/103 I've heard.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 16, 2013, 05:41:19 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 16, 2013, 05:29:23 PM
I just ordered it [Kuikjen] from Presto myself, Gurn. One you didn't mention, that I do have, is Marriner' at 3:06, I'll need to revisit this evening, but I have a feeling that he's leaving out a repeat, perhaps?

Also, here's some other Haydn I just recently purchased along with the Kuijken...

Ah, good move, I would say. I would tend to believe that your Marriner does just that; dropping repeats was SOP in the pre-HIP days. No way he lops an extra minute off from Hogwood; his flautist would be in intensive care!! :) I note that Fischer is at 4:26 and Dorati at 4:50. I should go back and play them to see what combination of tempo and repeats brings them there. For Fischer, I would say that he plays the repeats and at the same tempo as the HIPsters. Dorati, though, not so sure. That will be for another evening though!

That does look like a nice selection there. I've never heard that group playing trios on Naxos. Please let us know what you think of them. I've been curious about that Vienna Piano Trio disk for a while too. :)

PS - I got the Eddings disk yesterday, haven't had time to play it yet though. According to the booklet, that picture is also inside with the caption "Franz Joseph Haydn". :D I think it's the first violinist though, actually.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 16, 2013, 05:59:25 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 16, 2013, 05:41:19 PM
Ah, good move, I would say. I would tend to believe that your Marriner does just that; dropping repeats was SOP in the pre-HIP days. No way he lops an extra minute off from Hogwood; his flautist would be in intensive care!! :) I note that Fischer is at 4:26 and Dorati at 4:50. I should go back and play them to see what combination of tempo and repeats brings them there. For Fischer, I would say that he plays the repeats and at the same tempo as the HIPsters. Dorati, though, not so sure. That will be for another evening though!

That does look like a nice selection there. I've never heard that group playing trios on Naxos. Please let us know what you think of them. I've been curious about that Vienna Piano Trio disk for a while too. :)

PS - I got the Eddings disk yesterday, haven't had time to play it yet though. According to the booklet, that picture is also inside with the caption "Franz Joseph Haydn". :D I think it's the first violinist though, actually.

8)

Listening to Marriner now, it has almost the exact same tempo as Goodman.

I've become fascinated with Piano Trio in D Major, No. 24, listened to the complete piece by the Kungsbacka Trio and immediately purchased the disc. I wanted to sample another performance and came across the Vienna Trio, and similar to the recently discussed Kuijken Matin finale, there was an obvious contrast between Vienna Trio's Allegro, ma dolce and Kingsbacka's Allegro, ma dolce finale of the trio No. 24. Kungsbacka swings, almost to a quick-step, but it's still dolce. Vienna Trio are smooth, and slightly slower, more delicate in their attacks, but again still dolce, possibly a bit more.
Anyway, they both are good discs, and the Kungsbacka/Naxos sound is very nice with a solid bass presence which is extra nice with a piano trio.

I haven't received the Edding yet, but I might be the most excited for that one, what I've heard is thrilling. Let's hope they record more Haydn quartets! ;D

And...the Takacs Op. 74 is beautiful, especially the "Rider", great sonics and balance.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 17, 2013, 03:07:27 AM

Random thought re piano trios: I have trios 24 to 31, thanks to the Florestan Trio on Hyperion (Susan Tomes is my idol).

But it annoys the heck out of me that they released 2 volumes and didn't keep Haydn's groupings together. No.27 is on the disc that also has 24 to 26, instead of being with 28 and 29 like it should be. I mention this because I can see that those Naxos ones have been planned more thoughtfully.

I'm looking at expanding my Haydn symphonies past the 'London' works, and I suspect I may face the same issue. I've no doubt I can pick up a set of 'Paris' symphonies somewhere, but can I get 76-78 together? Or 79-81? Or 90-92, which did belong together before no.92 became Oxfordised? I'm less hopeful.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 17, 2013, 04:23:08 AM

Quote from: orfeo on April 17, 2013, 03:07:27 AM
Random thought re piano trios: I have trios 24 to 31, thanks to the Florestan Trio on Hyperion (Susan Tomes is my idol).

But it annoys the heck out of me that they released 2 volumes and didn't keep Haydn's groupings together. No.27 is on the disc that also has 24 to 26, instead of being with 28 and 29 like it should be. I mention this because I can see that those Naxos ones have been planned more thoughtfully.

I'm looking at expanding my Haydn symphonies past the 'London' works, and I suspect I may face the same issue. I've no doubt I can pick up a set of 'Paris' symphonies somewhere, but can I get 76-78 together? Or 79-81? Or 90-92, which did belong together before no.92 became Oxfordised? I'm less hopeful.

I know just what you mean. Breaking up sets and recombining them is rampant in the industry, simply because producers don't give a damn about what thoughtful listeners might actually prefer. :-\

You will probably have more joy with the symphonies though. Many 'Paris' sets, as you surmise. Also ones like this;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKuijken88_92cover.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/Gurn_Blanston/media/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKuijken88_92cover.jpg.html)

a highly recommended choice. Lots of options out there, just need being a bit picky so you don't get stuck with lots of duplication. No need for that! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 17, 2013, 04:25:55 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 17, 2013, 04:23:08 AM
You will probably have more joy with the symphonies though. Many 'Paris' sets, as you surmise. Also ones like this;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKuijken88_92cover.jpg) (http://s202.photobucket.com/user/Gurn_Blanston/media/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKuijken88_92cover.jpg.html)

a highly recommended choice.

Not that more is wanted than The Gurn Seal of Approval, but I pound the table for this, as well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 17, 2013, 04:41:51 AM

Quote from: orfeo on April 17, 2013, 03:07:27 AM....but can I get 76-78 together? Or 79-81? Or 90-92, which did belong together before no.92 became Oxfordised? I'm less hopeful.

76-78 and 90-92 are on single Goodman/Hanover discs:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/feb2010/Haydn90Good.jpg) (http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/oct2009/Haydn767778Goodman.jpg)

Volume Five of the Fischer cycle has a nice grouping that covers some of your needs too: 70-81

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan11/haydnfischervol5.jpg)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on April 17, 2013, 04:57:50 AM

I've been on a bit of a choral kick lately so I took a crack at one of the discs in the set of Weil's recording of Haydn's late masses; specifically the Mass in the Time of War/Salve Regina/Motet disc. Good stuff! I'll soon be giving the rest of that set a try.

Also, I saw a question posed on an Amazon review of Weil's recording of Haydn's London Symphonies that only the mighty Gurn can answer... 8)

"Hearing these symphonies afresh makes one wonder about dear old Josef. For a great composer, he seems to have been suspiciously normal - no drug habit, syphilis, deafness, madness or part-time axe murder habit. This is deeply worrying; to confirm his status as one of the musical immortals, could some kind musicologist please identify hitherto unrevealed nastiness that we can associate with him?"

;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 17, 2013, 05:15:06 AM

Thanks for the symphony tips. I have heard good things about both Kujiken and Goodman so will certainly keep those in mind when the time comes. Not up to more classical purchases just yet, but always thinking about them...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 17, 2013, 05:38:01 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on April 17, 2013, 04:57:50 AM
I've been on a bit of a choral kick lately so I took a crack at one of the discs in the set of Weil's recording of Haydn's late masses; specifically the Mass in the Time of War/Salve Regina/Motet disc. Good stuff! I'll soon be giving the rest of that set a try.

Also, I saw a question posed on an Amazon review of Weil's recording of Haydn's London Symphonies that only the mighty Gurn can answer... 8)

"Hearing these symphonies afresh makes one wonder about dear old Josef. For a great composer, he seems to have been suspiciously normal - no drug habit, syphilis, deafness, madness or part-time axe murder habit. This is deeply worrying; to confirm his status as one of the musical immortals, could some kind musicologist please identify hitherto unrevealed nastiness that we can associate with him?"

;D

I think that the problem was not that Haydn was actually an angel, but that he was rather discreet and didn't really make a spectacle of himself the way some do. It all depends on ones personal moral compass, of course, whether or not this sort of behavior is objectionable or no. But Haydn, a long time married man, would willingly dally with any warm body that came down the road. There are 5 or 6 ladies who are either documented paramours or else strongly suspected to be, and that is only the ones who managed to let it slip that they were carrying on. Of course, to a lot of people, then and now, this was perfectly normal and fine behavior, so probably not fodder for Entertainment Tonight. But as far as excessive drinking or opium smoking or any of the vices, true enough, he was a dull fellow. Probably that's why he was so damned good at what he did. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 17, 2013, 05:40:21 AM

And lived so long to continue doing it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 17, 2013, 05:40:51 AM

Yeah, I thought all we needed to say was: Bad Marriage.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 17, 2013, 05:52:55 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 17, 2013, 05:40:21 AM
And lived so long to continue doing it.

Quote from: orfeo on April 17, 2013, 05:40:51 AM
Yeah, I thought all we needed to say was: Bad Marriage.

Pretty much. Nowadays, a person needs to be a serial killer/convict/rehabber/whatever to get any attention. I guess Haydn finally is a failure at something, being only a serial adulterer.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 17, 2013, 05:56:08 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 17, 2013, 05:52:55 AM
Pretty much. Nowadays, a person needs to be a serial killer/convict/rehabber/whatever to get any attention.

A composer these days has tough choices . . . . ; )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 17, 2013, 06:01:42 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on April 17, 2013, 05:55:47 AM
One reason why I really am attracted to Haydn's music is because he appears to have been the consummate professional. No melodrama, no hand-wringing, no overarching egoistic demands; none of the "music is about ME" but instead the music serves itself. For me this typifies the zeitgeist of the Classical period as opposed to the Romantic era where the composer began to become a focal point and the music became more sensationalist, at least IMO.

Thank you for putting my thoughts into words.

+1 (is that how it's done these days?)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on April 17, 2013, 06:02:11 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on April 17, 2013, 04:57:50 AM
I've been on a bit of a choral kick lately so I took a crack at one of the discs in the set of Weil's recording of Haydn's late masses; specifically the Mass in the Time of War/Salve Regina/Motet disc. Good stuff! I'll soon be giving the rest of that set a try.

Also, I saw a question posed on an Amazon review of Weil's recording of Haydn's London Symphonies that only the mighty Gurn can answer... 8)

"Hearing these symphonies afresh makes one wonder about dear old Josef. For a great composer, he seems to have been suspiciously normal - no drug habit, syphilis, deafness, madness or part-time axe murder habit. This is deeply worrying; to confirm his status as one of the musical immortals, could some kind musicologist please identify hitherto unrevealed nastiness that we can associate with him?"

;D

Well, quite curiously the same assertion could be done about Bach, if we exclude the cataracts of his last years.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 17, 2013, 06:07:31 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 17, 2013, 05:56:08 AM
A composer these days has tough choices . . . . ; )

Just choosing to be a composer is accomplishment enough. One could so easily have become an entertainer of more vulgar popularity potential and with the associated vices. Glad you rose above it, Karl (or if you didn't, actually, I hope we don't find out til after you die! :D ).

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 17, 2013, 06:08:37 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on April 17, 2013, 06:02:11 AM
Well, quite curiously the same assertion could be done about Bach, if we exclude the cataracts of his last years.

Well, there's that 23 kids thing though. The man was a menace! 0:) >:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on April 17, 2013, 06:26:58 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on April 17, 2013, 06:02:11 AM
Well, quite curiously the same assertion could be done about Bach, if we exclude the cataracts of his last years.

Why would a cataract be considered a morally bad characteristic or a physical side-effect thereof?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on April 17, 2013, 06:27:29 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 17, 2013, 06:08:37 AM
Well, there's that 23 kids thing though. The man was a menace! 0:) >:D

8)

Yes. Anyway, I think -although I'm a single man without children- very few things help more to focus on the occupations of every day than a large number of children. It is a matter of survival. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on April 17, 2013, 06:44:21 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on April 17, 2013, 06:26:58 AM
Why would a cataract be considered a morally bad characteristic or a physical side-effect thereof?

Oh no, it was just one example of disease that undoubtedly changed his normal daily life. Apparently, if we exclude the increasing blindness of his last years, Bach was a healthy guy all his life.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 17, 2013, 06:52:30 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on April 17, 2013, 06:44:21 AM
Oh no, it was just one example of disease that undoubtedly changed his normal daily life. Apparently, if we exclude the increasing blindness of his last years, Bach was a healthy guy all his life.

If you haven't done yet, you should read up on his attempts to get that fixed. It reminds one of just why one doesn't wish to go back in time and live there! :o

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 17, 2013, 06:54:15 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on April 17, 2013, 06:26:58 AM
Why would a cataract be considered a morally bad characteristic or a physical side-effect thereof?

I think it is one of those hardships that composers had to overcome for their art. Haydn had ferocious nasal polyps. Much worse a thing than it sounds, but probably not photogenic enough for Hollywood. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on April 17, 2013, 06:58:29 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on April 17, 2013, 06:44:21 AM
Oh no, it was just one example of disease that undoubtedly changed his normal daily life. Apparently, if we exclude the increasing blindness of his last years, Bach was a healthy guy all his life.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 17, 2013, 06:54:15 AM
I think it is one of those hardships that composers had to overcome for their art. Haydn had ferocious nasal polyps. Much worse a thing than it sounds, but probably not photogenic enough for Hollywood. :)

8)

Oh, we're talking about those sorts of nastiness as well, eh? :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 17, 2013, 07:07:29 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on April 17, 2013, 06:58:29 AM
Oh, we're talking about those sorts of nastiness as well, eh? :D

Anything for a story. Schubert's syphilis is one of the all-time greats! He was brilliant to contract that, merely by wick-dipping. When they say Schubert was a genius, that's what they're talking about! >:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on April 17, 2013, 07:16:35 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 17, 2013, 07:07:29 AM
He was brilliant to contract that, merely by wick-dipping. When they say Schubert was a genius, that's what they're talking about! >:D

8)

Overrated, I'd say. It was more like a rite of passage back in the day, if one wanted to be an artiste par excellence, no? ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 17, 2013, 07:23:34 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on April 17, 2013, 07:16:35 AM
Overrated, I'd say. It was more like a rite of passage back in the day, if one wanted to be an artiste par excellence, no? ;D

Yes, true enough. Paganini did it too. Scary stuff to me. Scared Straight! :o

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on April 17, 2013, 07:31:51 AM

Quote from: orfeo on April 17, 2013, 03:07:27 AM
Random thought re piano trios: I have trios 24 to 31, thanks to the Florestan Trio on Hyperion (Susan Tomes is my idol).

But it annoys the heck out of me that they released 2 volumes and didn't keep Haydn's groupings together. No.27 is on the disc that also has 24 to 26, instead of being with 28 and 29 like it should be. I mention this because I can see that those Naxos ones have been planned more thoughtfully.

I'm looking at expanding my Haydn symphonies past the 'London' works, and I suspect I may face the same issue. I've no doubt I can pick up a set of 'Paris' symphonies somewhere, but can I get 76-78 together? Or 79-81? Or 90-92, which did belong together before no.92 became Oxfordised? I'm less hopeful.

You may know that Jordi Savall played these three symphonies together in a concert in 2009 in the Esterhazy Palace with the Austro-Hungarian Haydn Philharmonic. I have a recording of the concert, which I got through symphonyshare.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on April 17, 2013, 07:51:34 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 17, 2013, 05:38:01 AM
I think that the problem was not that Haydn was actually an angel, but that he was rather discreet and didn't really make a spectacle of himself the way some do. It all depends on ones personal moral compass, of course, whether or not this sort of behavior is objectionable or no. But Haydn, a long time married man, would willingly dally with any warm body that came down the road. There are 5 or 6 ladies who are either documented paramours or else strongly suspected to be, and that is only the ones who managed to let it slip that they were carrying on. Of course, to a lot of people, then and now, this was perfectly normal and fine behavior, so probably not fodder for Entertainment Tonight. But as far as excessive drinking or opium smoking or any of the vices, true enough, he was a dull fellow. Probably that's why he was so damned good at what he did. :)

8)

I was just planning on having some fun with an amusing quote, of course, but having a read a biography of the fellow I do think that it's only fair for one to factor in what his marriage was like when making moral judgements about his extra-marital habits. I'm normally not the kind to make this sort of argument, but I think that was a pretty extreme situation as far as bad marriages go.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 17, 2013, 08:04:55 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on April 17, 2013, 07:51:34 AM
I was just planning on having some fun with an amusing quote, of course, but having a read a biography of the fellow I do think that it's only fair for one to factor in what his marriage was like when making moral judgements about his extra-marital habits. I'm normally not the kind to make this sort of argument, but I think that was a pretty extreme situation as far as bad marriages go.

I called MY first wife "The Infernal Beast" too! Amazing coincidence! :D

Although he did tell Greisinger that the reason that he played around was not that she was so mean or anything (which may be exaggerated anyway), but it was only when he found out that she couldn't bear children that he began to be more responsive to the attention that he said that women always showered him with. So it was probably one of those things that you still hear today, where "I got pregnant to straighten him out..." would have been a valid thing, maybe. :-\

8)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 17, 2013, 08:24:14 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 17, 2013, 06:07:31 AM
Just choosing to be a composer is accomplishment enough. One could so easily have become an entertainer of more vulgar popularity potential and with the associated vices. Glad you rose above it, Karl (or if you didn't, actually, I hope we don't find out til after you die! :D ).

8)

Meh. The best popular musicians are the ones that write their own stuff anyway. Although I've had someone argue very hard with me once that I had to call them 'songwriters' instead of 'composers'.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 17, 2013, 08:26:52 AM

Quote from: orfeo on April 17, 2013, 08:24:14 AM
Meh. The best popular musicians are the ones that write their own stuff anyway. Although I've had someone argue very hard with me once that I had to call them 'songwriters' instead of 'composers'.

Not to worry, I'm not condemning any class or career. Just objectively putting it out there. I have no problem with any songwriter; hell, I can just imagine what I would turn out!!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 17, 2013, 08:33:23 AM

Quote from: orfeo on April 17, 2013, 08:24:14 AM
Meh. The best popular musicians are the ones that write their own stuff anyway. Although I've had someone argue very hard with me once that I had to call them 'songwriters' instead of 'composers'.

Well, FWIW (no, I haven't looked closely at how they distinguish them) the Berklee College of Music have both a Composition and a Songwriting faculty . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on April 17, 2013, 08:35:37 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on April 17, 2013, 04:57:50 AM
could some kind musicologist please identify hitherto unrevealed nastiness that we can associate with him?"

1) His opinion about his wife
2) History of his skull

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 17, 2013, 08:38:44 AM

One cannot testify against his or her spouse in court, right? ; )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on April 17, 2013, 11:11:46 AM

But I don't blame in any way, I'm just saying that there are two nastiness that we can associate with him - not that these were nastiness made by him. One is his wife personality, but we know about her mainly from him, there is no special reason to doubt, but you know husband and wife, we never can be sure, so in fact we have not his wife but only his opinion - that's way I have written what I have written.
The other is probably one of the most nasty stories in the history of music - horror, nothing less. May be this story is the way to make him as famous as he deservs, you now real pop star as Beethoven, Bach and Mozart.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on April 17, 2013, 11:24:34 AM

Quote from: mszczuj on April 17, 2013, 08:35:37 AM
2) History of his skull

Hadn't heard of this until you mentioned it. Gruesome stuff! Probably not the best thing to read about just before one retires for the night.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on April 17, 2013, 11:31:38 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on April 17, 2013, 11:28:20 AM
Unfortunately, that is exactly how I learned of it: I read in bed just about every night before going to sleep and read the entire account in the Griesinger biography.

Not my idea of relevant information.

Thanks to Wikipedia, I have also seen the pictorial of the re-unification ceremony from a 1954 issue of Life magazine. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on April 20, 2013, 10:15:50 AM

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_250/MI0003/299/MI0003299917.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Thoughts on this?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 20, 2013, 10:26:23 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on April 20, 2013, 10:15:50 AM
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_250/MI0003/299/MI0003299917.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Thoughts on this?

My opinion is that it is the best set out there. That is not a universal opinion (Sarge hates it, for one), but that doesn't stop me from saying so. That box set is by far the best value; I got them 1 at a time on release at an average of $15 each. No regrets though.

FYI (and I think you like this though), it uses a harpsichord in the pre-1770 works rather than a fortepiano. It should do, of course, but I don't think anyone else does so it makes those sound rather unique. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 20, 2013, 02:32:45 PM

Quote from: Geo Dude on April 20, 2013, 10:15:50 AM
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_250/MI0003/299/MI0003299917.jpg?partner=allrovi.com) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-nfQqPCj/0/S/Haydn_PTrios-S.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VMS5SAR7L._SY300_.jpg)

Thoughts on this?

Well, I own the other sets of these works inserted above - NOW, I have the Trio 1790 in other recordings and really enjoy - I cannot imagine that these Haydn trios w/ that group would not please me - in fact, if I could find a cheap price - might make a purchase. I also love the CPO label and have many of their 'box sets' - my only complaint (because of a storage issue) is that the company tends to just put a LOT of jewel boxes together in rather bulky package, but HEY the music is good! Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 20, 2013, 02:37:55 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on April 20, 2013, 02:32:45 PM
Well, I own the other sets of these works inserted above - NOW, I have the Trio 1790 in other recordings and really enjoy - I cannot imagine that these Haydn trios w/ that group would not please me - in fact, if I could find a cheap price - might make a purchase. I also love the CPO label and have many of their 'box sets' - my only complaint (because of a storage issue) is that the company tends to just put a LOT of jewel boxes together in rather bulky package, but HEY the music is good! Dave :)

3.4" of shelf space is all it is, Dave ::)

:D

But seriously, I agree with you. I hadn't seen the box, but if it's like other cpo boxes, it'll just be the jewel cases in a slipcover. You could easily pit 9 (vol 8 is a double disk) disks in sleeves and with a nice, consolidated booklet in 1" of space. Cheaper for them, too. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 20, 2013, 02:54:50 PM

Hey Gurn - well, I'll keep my eye out for a good price on the CPO offering (or when I get another Amazon gift card!) - I really like that group!

BUT, a new arrival today - will start tomorrow - 6 discs! NOW, I already own much of this music - maybe a need to cull some - don't know - nothing wrong w/ having multiple versions (don't really want to 'dump' my Ricercar 2-CD set of the octets - an OLD friend!) - Dave :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-qVV2vdj/0/O/Haydn_HussNaples.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-CGFgKCQ/0/O/Hadyn_Baryton1.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on April 20, 2013, 02:59:36 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 20, 2013, 02:37:55 PM
But seriously, I agree with you. I hadn't seen the box, but if it's like other cpo boxes, it'll just be the jewel cases in a slipcover. You could easily pit 9 (vol 8 is a double disk) disks in sleeves and with a nice, consolidated booklet in 1" of space. Cheaper for them, too. :-\

No, not jewel cases here. It's a slim cardboard box and paper envelopes.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 20, 2013, 03:02:36 PM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on April 20, 2013, 02:59:36 PM
No, not jewel cases here. It's a slim cardboard box and paper envelopes.

Hi GS - thanks for that information - I'll definitely put that on my 'wish list' - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on April 20, 2013, 03:31:34 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on April 20, 2013, 03:02:36 PM
Hi GS - thanks for that information - I'll definitely put that on my 'wish list' - Dave :)

My pleasure, dear SM46. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 20, 2013, 04:01:49 PM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on April 20, 2013, 02:59:36 PM
No, not jewel cases here. It's a slim cardboard box and paper envelopes.

Oh, that's really excellent, Gordo. I hope they gave some sort of liner notes along with. IIRC, the ones in the originals were pretty good. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on April 20, 2013, 04:21:26 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 20, 2013, 10:26:23 AM
My opinion is that it is the best set out there. That is not a universal opinion (Sarge hates it, for one), but that doesn't stop me from saying so. That box set is by far the best value; I got them 1 at a time on release at an average of $15 each. No regrets though.

FYI (and I think you like this though), it uses a harpsichord in the pre-1770 works rather than a fortepiano. It should do, of course, but I don't think anyone else does so it makes those sound rather unique. :)

8)

Excellent, Gurn. I'll make sure to pick it up...one of these days... :P (Price and all.)

The harpsichord bit is good to know and yes I do like that. :) I had the Van Swieten Trio on hand but sold it off when I bought the complete Haydn edition....then ended up having to sell that. (D'OH!) I didn't quite click with it the way I expected to anyway and this set may be just what I need.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 20, 2013, 04:30:22 PM

Quote from: Geo Dude on April 20, 2013, 04:21:26 PM

Excellent, Gurn. I'll make sure to pick it up...one of these days... :P (Price and all.)

The harpsichord bit is good to know and yes I do like that. :) I had the Van Swieten Trio on hand but sold it off when I bought the complete Haydn edition....then ended up having to sell that. (D'OH!) I didn't quite click with it the way I expected to anyway and this set may be just what I need.

I admire the Van Sweiten set, but the 1790 set is sort of like the round peg that fits perfectly into the round hole for me. Every thing about it is just what I would have hoped for, sound-wise, tempo-wise etc.

I have seen it quite recently on eBay brand new for between $50 & $60. Not a giveaway, of course, but for 9 disks, really pretty fair. :) Of course, I've also seen it for $75+, but that's unnecessary. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on April 20, 2013, 05:00:13 PM

I don't think the price is unfair, doesn't mean I can easily afford it, though. ;) Especially with so much other great stuff out there. In any case, I'll definitely pick up this set when I get the chance. Your tastes and mine have only been misaligned once that I know of and I doubt it will happen again, at least with this set.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 20, 2013, 05:03:26 PM

Quote from: Geo Dude on April 20, 2013, 05:00:13 PM
I don't think the price is unfair, doesn't mean I can easily afford it, though. ;) Especially with so much other great stuff out there. In any case, I'll definitely pick up this set when I get the chance. Your tastes and mine have only been misaligned once that I know of and I doubt it will happen again, at least with this set.

Roger that! That Beethoven stuff has shipped already, looking forward to that, too! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 20, 2013, 06:08:47 PM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51eSopvnXaL._SY350_.jpg)

Purchased a few days ago. My first foray (finally) into the Baryton Trios.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 20, 2013, 07:08:27 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 20, 2013, 06:08:47 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51eSopvnXaL._SY350_.jpg)

Purchased a few days ago. My first foray (finally) into the Baryton Trios.

That was MY first foray into the Baryton Trios too! I think it's a very fine disk, still one of my favorites. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on April 20, 2013, 07:18:48 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 20, 2013, 04:01:49 PM
Oh, that's really excellent, Gordo. I hope they gave some sort of liner notes along with. IIRC, the ones in the originals were pretty good. :)

8)

It includes the original liner notes, so nothing is lost, Gurn. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on April 20, 2013, 09:35:29 PM

Vol 8 of the Trio 1790 set is streamable in spotify ans qobuz and probably elsewhere, so it's easy to listen to. Maybe the rest will follow. I listened to it last night, and I think they're very very good. I've ordered the whole box, thanks for mentioning it.

The CD 8 I heard contains some early trios and some later ones. It's impressive the way they make the earlier music sound so interesting and exciting. The G minor Trio Hob 15/1 (1766) sounded wonderful and fresh. Great music.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on April 20, 2013, 11:06:23 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 20, 2013, 05:03:26 PM
Roger that! That Beethoven stuff has shipped already, looking forward to that, too! :)

8)

Good to know, good to know. I hope you enjoy them.

By the way, I realize your Haydn Blog thread isn't really intended as a Q&A type thing per se, but for the new comers maybe you could do a short write up on the key differences in style between Haydn and Mozart. :)

EDIT: While I'm badgering you about stuff, any suggestions for solo discs of Haydn's sonatas on harpsichord other than Robert Hill's disc of sonatas and divertimenti? It's good stuff but the guy is a speed demon and it'd be great to have a single disc release on hand that I could toss in the stereo when I'm not in the mood for that.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 21, 2013, 08:00:05 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on April 20, 2013, 11:06:23 PM
EDIT: While I'm badgering you about stuff, any suggestions for solo discs of Haydn's sonatas on harpsichord other than Robert Hill's disc of sonatas and divertimenti? It's good stuff but the guy is a speed demon and it'd be great to have a single disc release on hand that I could toss in the stereo when I'm not in the mood for that.

Not sure about 'solo' disc, but there are several boxes w/ lots of harpsichord (and some clavichord) - the Tom Beghin offering is the less expensive choice on Amazon at the moment - but browsing there a few moments ago brought up a single Centaur disc w/ several good reviews - will be curious if our Papa fans have comments on that one (or others) - good luck in your choice(s) - Dave :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-PvmgbqH/0/S/Haydn_Schornsheim-S.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-xkDWPC9/0/S/Haydn_Beghin-S.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519mgJ7bmcL._SX300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 21, 2013, 08:17:24 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on April 21, 2013, 08:00:05 AM
Not sure about 'solo' disc, but there are several boxes w/ lots of harpsichord (and some clavichord) - the Tom Beghin offering is the less expensive choice on Amazon at the moment - but browsing there a few moments ago brought up a single Centaur disc w/ several good reviews - will be curious if our Papa fans have comments on that one (or others) - good luck in your choice(s) - Dave :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519mgJ7bmcL._SX300_.jpg)

Dave & Geo,
Yes, this is just the disk I was going to recommend. Oddly enough Schenkman also has a second Haydn disk, but it is on modern piano. Anyway, these are some nice pieces here, ranging in time from 1765-7. This was the very earliest point where he was working out Stürm und Dräng principles, and his keyboard sonatas from that period, while not S & D per se, are technically and in content more advanced than his earlier works, which were primarily for teaching his students with. Schenkman is a very capable player and I fel like he brings some good stuff to the table in this disk. I'm glad I bought it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 21, 2013, 08:30:15 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on April 21, 2013, 08:26:41 AM
This is a good single disc

[asin]B004O0UZ6Q[/asin]

Er, not on harpsichord.

::)

True enough, not on harpsichord. However, one of my top 2 or 3 favorite disks though. Bilson is as good as it gets on the fortepiano. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on April 21, 2013, 09:08:33 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 21, 2013, 08:17:24 AM
Dave & Geo,
Yes, this is just the disk I was going to recommend. Oddly enough Schenkman also has a second Haydn disk, but it is on modern piano. Anyway, these are some nice pieces here, ranging in time from 1765-7. This was the very earliest point where he was working out Stürm und Dräng principles, and his keyboard sonatas from that period, while not S & D per se, are technically and in content more advanced than his earlier works, which were primarily for teaching his students with. Schenkman is a very capable player and I fel like he brings some good stuff to the table in this disk. I'm glad I bought it. :)

8)

Have you, or anyone else, heard Lars Ulrick Mortensen's CD of sonatas?

James Wright Webber has recorded many many Haydn sonata CDs on a harpsichord. He's not a speed demon. Whenever I've dipped in I've thought the performances were inoffensive, friendly and congenial, but I've certainly not listened to the whole shooting match.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 21, 2013, 09:10:25 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on April 21, 2013, 09:08:33 AM
Have you, or anyone else, heard Lars Ulrick Mortensen's CD of sonatas?

Sorry, not me. :( I'll check it out though. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on April 21, 2013, 09:14:41 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 21, 2013, 09:10:25 AM
Sorry, not me. :( I'll check it out though. :)

8)

I'm very tempted to buy it, but the downloads which would provide the desirable instant gratification are all a bit low quality. If anyone knows where I can find a decent quality download please let me know.

Othetwise I'll have to order a CD and that seems sooooooo old fashioned.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on April 21, 2013, 09:17:58 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 21, 2013, 08:30:15 AM
True enough, not on harpsichord. However, one of my top 2 or 3 favorite disks though. Bilson is as good as it gets on the fortepiano. :)

8)

Agreed

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 21, 2013, 09:18:32 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on April 21, 2013, 09:14:41 AM
I'm very tempted to buy it, but the downloads which would provide the desirable instant gratification are all a bit low quality. If anyone knows where I can find a decent quality download please let me know.

Othetwise I'll have to order a CD and that seems sooooooo old fashioned.

:D I can live with old fashioned. Not like it's 78's..... ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on April 21, 2013, 02:08:20 PM

Sonicman: I have both of those sets on hand, I just thought that a single disc offering might try to make for a better selection of works than going one disc at a time through a box set. I'm still trying to wrap my head around harpsichord in the classical period so I'd prefer a single disc offering before I make my way through a box set. Thanks, though, I'll see if I can fit that Schenkman disc into next month's orders.

sanantonio: No harm does. Can't have too many (good) period Haydn sonatas and I love fortepianos. :D

RE: Mortensen: He has a reputation as an excellent Bachian harpsichordist--albeit one whose recordings are hard to find, a trait that seems to apply to his Haydn disc--but I have no idea what his Haydn is like. In any case, it seems that we may have to draw straws or play rock, paper, scissors to see who gets to buy the used copies on Amazon at a semi-reasonable price. :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 21, 2013, 02:48:55 PM

Quote from: Geo Dude on April 21, 2013, 02:08:20 PM
RE: Mortensen: He has a reputation as an excellent Bachian harpsichordist--albeit one whose recordings are hard to find, a trait that seems to apply to his Haydn disc--but I have no idea what his Haydn is like. In any case, it seems that we may have to draw straws or play rock, paper, scissors to see who gets to buy the used copies on Amazon at a semi-reasonable price. :P

I bought it from iDeals for $15.25 + s&h. New. They have been pretty reliable for me so far, generally their price is as low as any and their shipping is modestly quick. I would have preferred Classical Music Superstore; surprised they weren't the ones carrying this rather obscure label. Report back by Saturday next, I expect.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on April 21, 2013, 03:10:48 PM

Ah, good to know that it's not OoP.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 21, 2013, 03:30:07 PM

Quote from: Geo Dude on April 21, 2013, 03:10:48 PM
Ah, good to know that it's not OoP.

Well, frankly I hadn't heard of him before, Mandrake's post stirred a faint memory of something I read in a Bach thread so I pursued it.

There are actually quite a few very good cembalo disks out there, but I try to remain with things you could actually find!

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardMathewsHarpsichordcover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardDenglercover-1_zps86961108.jpg)

I couldn't have you out looking around for Gudrun Dengler, after all, if you weren't going to find her! :)

In addition, I have at least 2 or 3 others where the player uses either harpsichord, clavichord or fortepiano as the case may be. Those aren't all confined to big box sets; single or double disks are well treated too. Let me know if you might like to see some of those too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on April 21, 2013, 07:07:29 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on April 21, 2013, 10:26:13 AM
Didn't Staier record a disc of Haydn sonatas?

The Answer is yes, but OOP. However it can be found on Spotify.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51AUb9MfkkL._SX300_.jpg)

Not sure how it lines up with the issue you show, but the DHM 10 CD "Andreas Staier Edition" budget box contains two CDs of Haydn: Hoboken XVI/48-52 on one CD, and Hoboken XVI/35-39 and 20 on the other.
[which, by the bye, can now be found on Amazon MP for under 20 USD, shipping included.]
[asin]B005L12SI0[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on April 21, 2013, 09:54:25 PM

I know Mortensen solo playing through recordings of Bach and Buxtehude. He's imaginative, informed, good humoured and not a speed demon. I've ordered the CD too, so thanks for raising the initial question about Haydn on the harpsichord, Geo Dude.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 22, 2013, 04:14:27 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on April 21, 2013, 09:54:25 PM
I know Mortensen solo playing through recordings of Bach and Buxtehude. He's imaginative, informed, good humoured and not a speed demon. I've ordered the CD too, so thanks for raising the initial question about Haydn on the harpsichord, Geo Dude.

Yes, after you brought his name up I thought about it a while and realized I must have seen it in either the Bach thread or the Harpsichord one. I'm not likely to have acquired it from either of those recs, but when you start talking Haydn.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 22, 2013, 04:21:33 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 21, 2013, 07:07:29 PM
Not sure how it lines up with the issue you show, but the DHM 10 CD "Andreas Staier Edition" budget box contains two CDs of Haydn: Hoboken XVI/48-52 on one CD, and Hoboken XVI/35-39 and 20 on the other.
[which, by the bye, can now be found on Amazon MP for under 20 USD, shipping included.]
[asin]B005L12SI0[/asin]

It will be 2 of the 3 disks in that other box. The third disk is mainly variations and such.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardandreas3.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardandreas2.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardandreas1.jpg)

These are the 3 original disks, they are disappointingly difficult to round up. I am frankly surprised to discover that the consolidated 3 disk box is OOP... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on April 22, 2013, 06:24:54 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 22, 2013, 04:21:33 AM
These are the 3 original disks, they are disappointingly difficult to round up. I am frankly surprised to discover that the consolidated 3 disk box is OOP... :-\

8)

Much of DHM has been OOP for some time. It's only in the last year or two that some of those recordings have been trickling back via those boxes.

Speaking of single disc of Haydn sonatas (although on a fortepiano), how is this one?:

[asin]B000F6YWV2[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 22, 2013, 06:26:54 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on April 22, 2013, 06:24:54 AM
Speaking of single disc of Haydn sonatas (although on a fortepiano), how is this one?:

[asin]B000F6YWV2[/asin]

I, too, am interested in any response. The sample clips certainly sound nice.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 22, 2013, 06:36:27 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on April 22, 2013, 06:24:54 AM
Much of DHM has been OOP for some time. It's only in the last year or two that some of those recordings have been trickling back via those boxes.

Speaking of single disc of Haydn sonatas (although on a fortepiano), how is this one?:

[asin]B000F6YWV2[/asin]

I enjoy that one quite a lot. She is a very capable and expressive player, and her piano has a nice sound to it. I like her version of Hob 17:6 as well as any that I have, except Badura-Skoda's, which is the one in my chronology now. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 22, 2013, 06:55:22 AM

Thanks Guys for all of those suggestions on the 'keyboard' sonatas - not sure w/ what I now own that I need to 'buy into' a bunch more, BUT I may just go ahead and download the Schenkman & Bilson recordings ($18 total on Amazon w/ probably $2 credit) - will load them onto my iPod & also burn to a single MP3 CD-R which I can play on my den stereo - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 22, 2013, 06:57:17 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on April 22, 2013, 06:55:22 AM
. . . also burn to a single MP3 CD-R which I can play on my den stereo - Dave :)

Thanks for this . . . I had completely forgotten that I can do the same with my little Cambridge Soundworks jigger at home . . ..

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on April 22, 2013, 06:59:40 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 22, 2013, 06:36:27 AM
I enjoy that one quite a lot. She is a very capable and expressive player, and her piano has a nice sound to it. I like her version of Hob 17:6 as well as any that I have, except Badura-Skoda's, which is the one in my chronology now. :)

8)

Thank you, Gurn. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on April 22, 2013, 09:05:06 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on April 20, 2013, 11:06:23 PM
EDIT: While I'm badgering you about stuff, any suggestions for solo discs of Haydn's sonatas on harpsichord other than Robert Hill's disc of sonatas and divertimenti? It's good stuff but the guy is a speed demon and it'd be great to have a single disc release on hand that I could toss in the stereo when I'm not in the mood for that.

I have planned to acquire this one:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/5425004849557.jpg)

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Joseph-Haydn-1732-1809-Klaviersonaten-H16-Nr-20233237/hnum/8590081

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on April 22, 2013, 09:40:19 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on April 20, 2013, 11:06:23 PM

EDIT: While I'm badgering you about stuff, any suggestions for solo discs of Haydn's sonatas on harpsichord other than Robert Hill's disc of sonatas and divertimenti? It's good stuff but the giuy is a speed demon and it'd be great to have a single disc release on hand that I could toss in the stereo when I'm not in the mood for that.

I don't think that's totally fair.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on April 22, 2013, 09:46:13 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on April 22, 2013, 09:40:19 AM
I don't think that's totally fair.

Perhaps the works he is playing require one to be a speed demon; I'm not familiar with his playing outside of this recording. All I can say is that all the extremely fast movements tend to blend together after a while.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on April 22, 2013, 09:59:47 AM

I certainly think that the outer movements of sonata 10 could have been more differentiated in terms of tempo, that he could have taken the third movement more slowly. Elsewhere I can't remember having reservations.
I'll just mention here that I think those very early sonatas work better on clavichord. Yuko Wataya's perforance seems more poetic than Robert Hill's there -- he/she (?) uses clavichord and part of the reason for the increased poetry has to be that the instrument is so beautiful in terms of colours and dynamics.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413RpUvh4eL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 22, 2013, 10:08:42 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on April 22, 2013, 09:59:47 AM
I certainly think that the outer movements of sonata 10 could have been more differentiated in terms of tempo, that he could have taken the third movement more slowly. Elsewhere I can't remember having reservations.
I'll just mention here that I think those very early sonatas work better on clavichord. Yuko Wataya's perforance seems more poetic than Robert Hill's there -- he/she (?) uses clavichord and part of the reason for the increased poetry has to be that the instrument is so beautiful in terms of colours and dynamics.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/413RpUvh4eL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Yes, Ms. Wataya is excellent throughout. This is the disk set that I mainly used in my chronology, and what I was talking about in my post last night about disks that use more than one instrument. I have a couple of others too (Carole Cerasi and Ulrika Davidsson stand out in my memory) where multiple instruments are used as needed. I like it as a concept. :) In any case, I think that Wataya disk is a must have. She is indeed poetic.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 22, 2013, 10:10:25 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on April 22, 2013, 09:05:06 AM
I have planned to acquire this one:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/5425004849557.jpg)

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Joseph-Haydn-1732-1809-Klaviersonaten-H16-Nr-20233237/hnum/8590081

:)

That seems intriguing, Gordo. I'll have to see if I can find it without resorting to Germany. :) Thanks for the tip!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on April 22, 2013, 10:18:51 AM

Thanks for the tip, Mandryka. I've wishlisted the clavichord disc.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on April 26, 2013, 08:32:20 AM

Well the Mortemsen CD arrived three days and I've been dipping in from time to time. I liked the textures in Hon16/24, where the speed of the harpsichord made this familiar music sound quite fresh to me. In Hob 16/31 I'm less sure what to think. I compared Mortensen with Beghin, who uses a piano, and straight away you can hear how eloquent Beghin is.

I'm not saying I like Beghin style. Sometimes in 31/i I felt as though he made the music sound a bit goofy. But I may change my mind. I certainly wouldn't mind reading Beghin's papers on rhetoric in Haydn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 26, 2013, 10:09:21 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on April 26, 2013, 08:54:28 AM
That book is excellent, and contains many other essays besides his.

In addition to the book that he ditied, he also contributed this lengthy essay to the book edited by Elaine Sisman calle Haydn and His World. That's where I first became acquainted with his ideas.

http://books.google.com/books?id=omPuBn8pTFUC&pg=PA201&lpg=PA201&dq=beghin+haydn+rhetoric&source=bl&ots=1GCKpx7ZWs&sig=yOpIlctCKASZP4IX2lSq-n54B6Q&hl=en&sa=X&ei=5sF6UfX-GeKaiAL92YD4DQ&ved=0CFAQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=beghin%20haydn%20rhetoric&f=false

That will let you read at least the beginning of it, possibly the entire, I don't know. Anyway, that is another very interesting book, available at Amazon and well-worth looking at.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 26, 2013, 10:48:30 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on April 26, 2013, 10:35:52 AM
Looks like I've stumbled upon another period instrument group doing Haydn keyboard trios:

HAYDN: Keyboard Trios Nos. 13, 25, 27, and 32

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/others/ACD22181.gif)

Trio Franz Joseph

So far sounds very good.

Yes, a very nice disk indeed. Although if I had known you were looking, I would have long ago rec'd this one;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnTrioGoyacover.jpg)

which is really quite excellent. Not sure if any streaming services have it, but Amazon does. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 26, 2013, 01:40:51 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 26, 2013, 10:48:30 AM
Yes, a very nice disk indeed. Although if I had known you were looking, I would have long ago rec'd this one;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnTrioGoyacover.jpg)

which is really quite excellent. Not sure if any streaming services have it, but Amazon does. :)

8)

Just sampled this, and it will be purchased very soon. What a delightful sounding trio. And No.24 in D Major is included (my favorite) so it's already a winner. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on April 26, 2013, 01:56:31 PM

Gotta love mentioning a Hadyn or Mozart disc to Gurn; he invariably already owns it and has several recommendations for related discs no one else has heard of in mind. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2013, 01:13:22 PM

Quote from: Geo Dude on April 26, 2013, 01:56:31 PM
Gotta love mentioning a Hadyn or Mozart disc to Gurn; he invariably already owns it and has several recommendations for related discs no one else has heard of in mind. :D

:)

Well, here's one that got mentioned to ME, which I got yesterday:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnMortensenHarpsichordSonatas_zps2303e18a.jpg)

I haven't listened to it yet since (and here's a note to you streamers) it came as 5 tracks instead of 15. I always hate that. So I had to rip it, chunk it up in Audacity, then tag it out. Haven't had to do that for a while. Anyway, it's in the queue for tonight. I'm looking forward to it!

And this one, playing now;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnTriosGamerithConsortVol1_zps31671403.jpg)

which I'm guessing will be as new to y'all as it is to me! This is possibly a set actually commissioned by Musical Heritage, since others that I have say 'Licensed from Whoever' quite clearly. This one only says 'Manufactured by Nimbus'. Anyway, this particular box is a 3 disk set of the first 15 trios on them, as you notice they are accompanied by harpsichord, joining Trio 1790 in that exclusive club. And it even includes Hob 39, which is made up of 5 discrete Triosatzen and the only other version I have of that is by Oort on the fortepiano. So that was an unexpected bonus. Of course, the ultimate bonus is that I got it 'Used - Like New' on the AMP for $1 + s&h, for a total of $4!! Seriously, you can't beat that.

As for the playing, I have other disks by the Gamerith Consort and have always enjoyed them much. They are ultimately authentic sounding, no PI poseurs need apply. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2013, 01:37:01 PM

Oh, and I forgot to mention this one that arrived yesterday also;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnItalianAriasQuasthoffcover_zpsd4da01be.jpg)

This simulated recital was recorded in 2008, and it seems Quasthoff has taken a real shine to Haydn since then, appearing at Esterháza in 2009 for the bicentennial festival, for example. I've just listened to a couple of cuts from this, it consists of 2 replacement arias (most were for his soprano mistress and other sopranos, and a few others for tenor) and the balance are highlights from the various bass arias in his (mostly late) operas. His voice is as good as I remembered it, and the Freiburg Baroque provide fine accompaniment. More on this once I have a chance for a good listening and some digesting.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on April 28, 2013, 07:44:50 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2013, 01:13:22 PM
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnTriosGamerithConsortVol1_zps31671403.jpg)

which I'm guessing will be as new to y'all as it is to me! This is possibly a set actually commissioned by Musical Heritage, since others that I have say 'Licensed from Whoever' quite clearly. This one only says 'Manufactured by Nimbus'. Anyway, this particular box is a 3 disk set of the first 15 trios on them, as you notice they are accompanied by harpsichord, joining Trio 1790 in that exclusive club. And it even includes Hob 39, which is made up of 5 discrete Triosatzen and the only other version I have of that is by Oort on the fortepiano. So that was an unexpected bonus. Of course, the ultimate bonus is that I got it 'Used - Like New' on the AMP for $1 + s&h, for a total of $4!! Seriously, you can't beat that.

Three volume set you say? Cheap on the market place you say? FOUL LIES! ;D

And not that I shot off like a rocket upon seeing that to order all three volumes or anything 0:), but at least one is labeled as being from Musical Heritage Society.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 29, 2013, 04:11:39 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on April 28, 2013, 07:44:50 PM
Three volume set you say? Cheap on the market place you say? FOUL LIES! ;D

And not that I shot off like a rocket upon seeing that to order all three volumes or anything 0:), but at least one is labeled as being from Musical Heritage Society.

My post says all that, but one need only look at the picture and it's all there too! :) When I bought this one (~ a week ago), there were at least 2 or 3 more for a similar price. Now, there are more volumes to the set. They are not all 3 disk boxes, but I bought Vol. 3 and haven't got it yet, but I paid $8, and I believe it is a 2 disk set. In typical Amazon fashion, there are no details about it. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 29, 2013, 04:38:13 AM

"PI poseurs" . . . scoundrels!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on April 29, 2013, 10:19:53 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 29, 2013, 04:11:39 AM
My post says all that, but one need only look at the picture and it's all there too! :) When I bought this one (~ a week ago), there were at least 2 or 3 more for a similar price. Now, there are more volumes to the set. They are not all 3 disk boxes, but I bought Vol. 3 and haven't got it yet, but I paid $8, and I believe it is a 2 disk set. In typical Amazon fashion, there are no details about it. :-\

Forgive me for misreading bits of your post. At the time I wrote it I was almost literally tripping over my fingers to get to Amazon and order everything I could from that set for cheap before it went away so my brain was running on auto-pilot. :-[

For what it's worth, my Amazon-fu skills produced three volumes which seemed to cover roughly 2/3rds of the piano trios along with an (expensive) single disc (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-erhalte-Scottish-Traverse-Flutes/dp/B00008FA88/ref=sr_1_6?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1367259740&sr=1-6&keywords=gamerith) that I think duplicates some of the stuff from the box sets; if it doesn't duplicate material it also doesn't provide enough to complete the collection. I'm assuming you already found that disc, though. It's possible that there's a volume four hiding somewhere, but it's also possible that the recording/funding ran out of steam. It's hard to tell with obscure releases like these.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 29, 2013, 06:13:38 PM

Quote from: Geo Dude on April 29, 2013, 10:19:53 AM
Forgive me for misreading bits of your post. At the time I wrote it I was almost literally tripping over my fingers to get to Amazon and order everything I could from that set for cheap before it went away so my brain was running on auto-pilot. :-[

For what it's worth, my Amazon-fu skills produced three volumes which seemed to cover roughly 2/3rds of the piano trios along with an (expensive) single disc (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-erhalte-Scottish-Traverse-Flutes/dp/B00008FA88/ref=sr_1_6?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1367259740&sr=1-6&keywords=gamerith) that I think duplicates some of the stuff from the box sets; if it doesn't duplicate material it also doesn't provide enough to complete the collection. I'm assuming you already found that disc, though. It's possible that there's a volume four hiding somewhere, but it's also possible that the recording/funding ran out of steam. It's hard to tell with obscure releases like these.

Well, I saw today that the Vol. 3 I bought the other day is now out of stock. No telling about it coming back :( This is what's on it:

Landon Hob Key
1793   32     18     A
1793   33     19     g
1793   34     20     Bb
1794   35     21     C
1794   36     22     Eb
1794   37     23     d

So, a double disk as I suspected. Clearly there must be a Volume 4 also. Love to find that, and Vol 2 also.

Did you find Vol 1? Surely someone didn't beat you to it! It was only 4 or 5 days from when I bought mine. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 29, 2013, 06:20:16 PM

Had a first listen to this one tonight;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnMortensenHarpsichordSonatas_zps2303e18a.jpg)

Mortensen is every bit as good as the Barokistos say he is! I greatly enjoyed his performances, mainly because he ornaments as needed, not holding back from doing so for some pedagogical reason. I am absolutely sure that Haydn would have expected him to ornament. Maybe not quite this well though. :)

For those among us who favor Hob 32/Landon 47 in b minor, take a moment to enjoy the Presto finale. It is as good as I've ever heard it played. In fact, prestos seem to be his forte, all of them are super!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on April 29, 2013, 07:29:17 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 29, 2013, 06:13:38 PM
Well, I saw today that the Vol. 3 I bought the other day is now out of stock. No telling about it coming back :( This is what's on it:

Landon Hob Key
1793   32     18     A
1793   33     19     g
1793   34     20     Bb
1794   35     21     C
1794   36     22     Eb
1794   37     23     d

So, a double disk as I suspected. Clearly there must be a Volume 4 also. Love to find that, and Vol 2 also.

Did you find Vol 1? Surely someone didn't beat you to it! It was only 4 or 5 days from when I bought mine. :-\

8)

I found and ordered vols. 1, 2 and 3. :D

I've googled around for info on a volume 4, but it seems to be so rare that no record exists on the internet. :P In any case, 2/3rds of a full cycle for under $25 shipped isn't too much to complain about, even if volume four never surfaces.

Nice to hear the good news on the Mortensen disc.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 30, 2013, 01:40:28 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 29, 2013, 06:13:38 PM
. . . Did you find Vol 1? Surely someone didn't beat you to it! It was only 4 or 5 days from when I bought mine. :-\

8)

To what shall we liken demand for Haydn? A flash flood, a consuming flame . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 30, 2013, 04:07:25 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 30, 2013, 01:40:28 AM
To what shall we liken demand for Haydn? A flash flood, a consuming flame . . . .

Gosh, I hope so.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 30, 2013, 04:09:00 AM

A bit unusually, I drove in to Boston this morning. And what CD should I pop in for the commute? the Hogwood/AAM account of the "Alleluia" Symphony. Beautiful!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 30, 2013, 04:17:32 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on April 29, 2013, 07:29:17 PM
I found and ordered vols. 1, 2 and 3. :D

I've googled around for info on a volume 4, but it seems to be so rare that no record exists on the internet. :P In any case, 2/3rds of a full cycle for under $25 shipped isn't too much to complain about, even if volume four never surfaces.

Nice to hear the good news on the Mortensen disc.

Excellent! I'll dig around a bit more for vol 2 then. Volume 4, at least, has works that have been recorded by everyone else. The works on the first 2 volumes, and particularly the first one are rarely recorded at all, and then, even more rarely on the correct instrument. So this is a nice find.

Yes, I was quite pleased with that disk. It'll be back in the queue very shortly. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 30, 2013, 04:18:40 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 30, 2013, 04:09:00 AM
A bit unusually, I drove in to Boston this morning. And what CD should I pop in for the commute? the Hogwood/AAM account of the "Alleluia" Symphony. Beautiful!

Life is good sometimes. That should make your whole day brighter!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 30, 2013, 04:24:05 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 30, 2013, 04:17:32 AM
Excellent! I'll dig around a bit more for vol 2 then. Volume 4, at least, has works that have been recorded by everyone else. The works on the first 2 volumes, and particularly the first one are rarely recorded at all, and then, even more rarely on the correct instrument. So this is a nice find.

Yes, I was quite pleased with that disk. It'll be back in the queue very shortly. :)

8)

OK, well I just got Vol. 2 also. I see it is "Eight Late Trios" so they weren't chronological that way. WHich means that Vol 4 contains the ones that I would really like to have. *sigh* "Time to Hunt".....

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on April 30, 2013, 07:37:16 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 30, 2013, 01:40:28 AM
To what shall we liken demand for Haydn? A flash flood, a consuming flame . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on April 30, 2013, 09:38:15 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 30, 2013, 01:40:28 AM
To what shall we liken demand for Haydn? A flash flood, a consuming flame . . . .

... a bush burning in the desert, yet not consumed?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on May 01, 2013, 06:18:23 AM

Speaking of stuff that's OOP, I'm glad I picked up this set a year and half ago:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51D1UfJXK1L._SY300_.jpg)

It was shipped for just under $21 dollars; a remarkable bargain in itself, more of one if you see what the original volumes that comprise this set are going for. :o

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 01, 2013, 06:23:57 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on May 01, 2013, 06:18:23 AM
Speaking of stuff that's OOP, I'm glad I picked up this set a year and half ago:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51D1UfJXK1L._SY300_.jpg)

It was shipped for just under $21 dollars; a remarkable bargain in itself, more of one if you see what the original volumes that comprise this set are going for. :o

Yes, that was one of those 'strike while the iron is hot' deals. I knew it wouldn't be around forever, but I didn't think it would go quite as soon as it did. I got both boxes together for $45; as you say, a remarkable bargain!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 01, 2013, 06:34:35 AM

Yes, one of quite a few Haus-driven purchases which have yielded satisfaction far greater than the sum of the parts.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on May 01, 2013, 06:46:16 AM

But the thing is, its partner set, containing Opp. 20, 33 and The Seven Words, is still universally available.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on May 01, 2013, 08:53:52 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on May 01, 2013, 06:46:16 AM
But the thing is, its partner set, containing Opp. 20, 33 and The Seven Words, is still universally available.

Indeed. Sometimes bizarre situations like that arise; for example, Rachel Podger's recording (http://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Sinfonia-Concertante-Violin-Concertos/dp/B002K3GOXW/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1367426777&sr=8-1&keywords=podger+concertante) of Mozart's Sinfonia Concertante and Haydn's first and fourth violin concerti seems to be out of print--or at least going through an extreme dry spell--in America even though virtually everything else she's recorded for Channel Classics, some of which was released long before that, remains in print.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 02, 2013, 07:45:31 AM

On your store shelves June 1, 2013;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/capture1_zps28b125e6.jpg)

I rather liked their Op 20 more than the earlier 2 opera, so I will surely have this. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 02, 2013, 07:47:14 AM

The Op.50! We wants it!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 02, 2013, 07:53:04 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on May 02, 2013, 07:47:14 AM
The Op.50! We wants it!

By all accounts it'll be next. At the current rate, I would say early next year. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on May 02, 2013, 07:54:35 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 02, 2013, 07:45:31 AM
On your store shelves June 1, 2013;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/capture1_zps28b125e6.jpg)

I rather liked their Op 20 more than the earlier 2 opera, so I will surely have this. :)

8)

... but you bought all the earlier releases too, isn't it? ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 02, 2013, 07:57:13 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on May 02, 2013, 07:54:35 AM
... but you bought all the earlier releases too, isn't it? ;D

Does a fat baby poop? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 02, 2013, 08:03:07 AM

Heck, babies of all dimensions poop.

Don't they?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on May 02, 2013, 08:04:43 AM

FatBaby would be a great nickname. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on May 02, 2013, 08:14:12 AM

This set , which was recommended to me very enthusiastically by a couple of friends, has just found its way in qobuz and no doubt, on spotify too.

(http://c3.cduniverse.ws/resized/250x500/music/458/8915458.jpg)

I knew Dershavina's Haydn only through an extrordinary concert recording where she seemed to make the piano sound as delicate and colourful as a clavichord.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 02, 2013, 08:21:16 AM

I wouldn't consider much of Haydn's music as melancholy. But I'm starting to feel that way towards String Quartet No. 42 in C major, Op. 54, No. 2, Hob.III:57. I've been listening to this particular quartet quite a bit the past few weeks, performances by Kodaly Quartet and the Endellion Quartet. Even with the shortly-bright Presto in the finale, which is eventually taken over by the return of the opening Adagio before fading away.

Also, Gurn you might have touched upon this area in the past, Op. 54 is titled "Tost" after violinist Johann Tost. Were these pieces written to feature Tost? The Adagio from Op. 54, No. 2 seems to be more of a solo for the first violin with the other three players as accompaniment.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 02, 2013, 08:31:35 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on May 02, 2013, 08:03:07 AM
Heck, babies of all dimensions poop.

Don't they?

Yes, but they don't all make an amusing verbal picture. :)

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on May 02, 2013, 08:04:43 AM
FatBaby would be a great nickname. :D

Agreed! Next forum I join that will be my name. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 02, 2013, 08:35:42 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 02, 2013, 08:21:16 AM
I wouldn't consider much of Haydn's music as melancholy. But I'm starting to feel that way towards String Quartet No. 42 in C major, Op. 54, No. 2, Hob.III:57. I've been listening to this particular quartet quite a bit the past few weeks, performances by Kodaly Quartet and the Endellion Quartet. Even with the shortly-bright Presto in the finale, which is eventually taken over by the return of the opening Adagio before fading away.

Also, Gurn you might have touched upon this area in the past, Op. 54 is titled "Tost" after violinist Johann Tost. Were these pieces written to feature Tost? The Adagio from Op. 54, No. 2 seems to be more of a solo for the first violin with the other three players as accompaniment.

Op 42 is stern. I hadn't thought of it as melancholy, although I can see where one would. There is not an extra note, as near as I can tell.

Let me get back to you on the Tost quartets. He was a violinist at Esterháza, although Tomasini is the one associated with the actual playing of the quartets. Haydn entrusted Tost to carry the manuscripts to Paris and sell them there, and I believe that Tost claimed that they were written for him to play (and dedicated to him) but that wasn't necessarily the case. I'll get some more precise info when I get home.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 03, 2013, 03:04:06 AM

This is on the Cleveland Orchestra's Facebook page today:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/apr12/haydn.jpg)

:D ;D :D

Koopman is conducting a Mozart/Haydn program this week, ending with the Farewell. How cool is that? Makes me wish I were home!

CLEVELAND ORCHESTRA
Saturday, May 4, 2013
8:00 PM
Severance Hall

Ton Koopman, conductor

MOZART - Symphony No. 1
FISCHER - Symphony with Eight Obbligato Timpani
MOZART - Symphony No. 17
REBEL - Overture from Les élémens
HAYDN - Symphony No. 45 ("Farewell")

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 03, 2013, 03:08:12 AM

Sweet!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 03, 2013, 06:25:19 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 03, 2013, 03:04:06 AM
This is on the Cleveland Orchestra's Facebook page today:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/apr12/haydn.jpg)

:D ;D :D

Koopman is conducting a Mozart/Haydn program this week, ending with the Farewell. How cool is that? Makes me wish I were home!

CLEVELAND ORCHESTRA
Saturday, May 4, 2013
8:00 PM
Severance Hall

Ton Koopman, conductor

MOZART - Symphony No. 1
FISCHER - Symphony with Eight Obbligato Timpani
MOZART - Symphony No. 17
REBEL - Overture from Les élémens
HAYDN - Symphony No. 45 ("Farewell")

Sarge

Man, would I love to go there! Dagnabbit, why Cleveland? Why not Nacogdoches? :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on May 03, 2013, 07:37:45 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on May 03, 2013, 07:33:15 AM
Just saw this on NML

HAYDN | String Quartets, Vol. 3 (Schuppanzigh-Quartett) - Nos. 25, 43, 59

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/others/ACC24223.gif)

Op. 54, No. 1, Hob.III:58
Op. 20, No. 2, Hob.III:32
Op. 74, No. 3, Hob.III:74

One of my favorite 4tets doing Haydn.

I wonder if people prefer this kind of mixed program or the usual chronological approach.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 03, 2013, 07:44:15 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on May 03, 2013, 07:37:45 AM
I wonder if people prefer this kind of mixed program or the usual chronological approach.

Depends on my mood. I have a variety of disks in this format (Smithson Quartet, Amsterdam Quartet, Esterházy Quartet &c) and am often in the mood for a mixed recital sort of a programme. Other times I just stick on an entire opus and let 'er rip. I'm happy either way. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 03, 2013, 07:45:55 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on May 03, 2013, 07:33:15 AM
Just saw this on NML

HAYDN | String Quartets, Vol. 3 (Schuppanzigh-Quartett) - Nos. 25, 43, 59

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/others/ACC24223.gif)

Op. 54, No. 1, Hob.III:58
Op. 20, No. 2, Hob.III:32
Op. 74, No. 3, Hob.III:74

One of my favorite 4tets doing Haydn.

Way back when Vol 2 was released, there was an advert inside for volume 3, including a catalog number and all. It was reputedly already in the can. If so, it sure has been a long time in the birthing process! Thanks for this info, it shall be mine!!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 03, 2013, 07:56:29 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on May 03, 2013, 07:33:15 AM
Just saw this on NML

HAYDN | String Quartets, Vol. 3 (Schuppanzigh-Quartett) - Nos. 25, 43, 59

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/others/ACC24223.gif)

Op. 54, No. 1, Hob.III:58
Op. 20, No. 2, Hob.III:32
Op. 74, No. 3, Hob.III:74

One of my favorite 4tets doing Haydn.

Includes two of my Top 10 Haydn Quartets. Looks like a purchase.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on May 03, 2013, 07:57:29 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 03, 2013, 07:44:15 AM
Depends on my mood. I have a variety of disks in this format (Smithson Quartet, Amsterdam Quartet, Esterházy Quartet &c) and am often in the mood for a mixed recital sort of a programme. Other times I just stick on an entire opus and let 'er rip. I'm happy either way. :)

8)

The question aroused because yesterday I was watching an interview to K. Bezuidenhout. He said his Mozart cycle of solo keyboard music (DHM USA) will include 9 volumes, all of them with this kind of programmatic variety. BTW, all the juvenilia will be excluded.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 03, 2013, 08:04:02 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on May 03, 2013, 07:57:29 AM
The question aroused because yesterday I was watching an interview to K. Bezuidenhout. He said his Mozart cycle of solo keyboard music (DHM USA) will include 9 volumes, all of them with this kind of programmatic variety. BTW, all the juvenilia will be excluded.

Interesting. That's what Beghin did with Haydn too, BTW. Each disk+ is a 'session' of things that are related by more than chronology.

FWIW, Mozart's solo keyboard 'juvenilia' is virtually non-existent, excepting the London Sketchbook. So he won't be overlooking much. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on May 03, 2013, 08:14:53 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 03, 2013, 08:04:02 AM
Interesting. That's what Beghin did with Haydn too, BTW. Each disk+ is a 'session' of things that are related by more than chronology.

FWIW, Mozart's solo keyboard 'juvenilia' is virtually non-existent, excepting the London Sketchbook. So he won't be overlooking much. :)

8)

This is not the right place, but these are two excellent interviews that I watched yesterday. The second one includes the reference to his DHM USA project. I'm not sure the exact extension that the "mature" output will have for these purposes:

http://www.youtube.com/v/TWADEJ2YGtA

http://www.youtube.com/v/qmokIN4g1kA

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on May 03, 2013, 08:50:39 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 03, 2013, 08:04:02 AM
FWIW, Mozart's solo keyboard 'juvenilia' is virtually non-existent, excepting the London Sketchbook. So he won't be overlooking much. :)

Taking advantage that I'm at home, I have revised the listing of Bart van Oort.

His disc "Mozart's Childhood" (CD11, 70 min.) includes: Eight Variations KV. 24 (1766), London Sketchbook K. 15 (1765), Ballet Music [from Ascanio in Alba KV. 111 (known as Nine Pieces for Piano, KV. Anh. 207) (1771?)] & Seven Variations KV. 25 (1766).

Additionally, there is a disc of "Early Sonatas and Variations" (CD6, 1773-1775) and the sonatas KV. 282-284, all of them written before his 20s. Chronologically all of this would usually be considered juvenilia, but in this case I doubt it. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 03, 2013, 10:17:23 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 03, 2013, 06:25:19 AM
Man, would I love to go there! Dagnabbit, why Cleveland? Why not Nacogdoches? :-\

Gurn - you might have to add some extra instruments to draw a crowd - ;) :D

BUT, Haydn & Mozart would probably have been pleased - Dave :)

(http://primesourceentertainment.com/system/genrephotos/27/sized/Mariachi-bands.jpg?1313628414)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 03, 2013, 10:24:19 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on May 03, 2013, 08:50:39 AM
Taking advantage that I'm at home, I have revised the listing of Bart van Oort.

His disc "Mozart's Childhood" (CD11, 70 min.) includes: Eight Variations KV. 24 (1766), London Sketchbook K. 15 (1765), Ballet Music [from Ascanio in Alba KV. 111 (known as Nine Pieces for Piano, KV. Anh. 207) (1771?)] & Seven Variations KV. 25 (1766).

Additionally, there is a disc of "Early Sonatas and Variations" (CD6, 1773-1775) and the sonatas KV. 282-284, all of them written before his 20s. Chronologically all of this would usually be considered juvenilia, but in this case I doubt it. :)

That's an interesting set. The ballet music is a world premiere, I would like to have it. The 2 variations sets are generally available. They are typical for their time, neither good nor bad. The other things, it's true are as you say, chronologically juvenilia, but in Mozart's special case are anything but. His first 'official' sonatas, the Mannheim ones (K279-283), are very sophisticated pieces, surpassing 90% of what was out there at the time.

Of course, none of this is Haydn.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 03, 2013, 10:35:00 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 03, 2013, 10:17:23 AM
Gurn - you might have to add some extra instruments to draw a crowd - ;) :D

BUT, Haydn & Mozart would probably have been pleased - Dave :)

(http://primesourceentertainment.com/system/genrephotos/27/sized/Mariachi-bands.jpg?1313628414)

Oh, the House Specialty; "Mariachi Mozart" :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on May 05, 2013, 02:44:13 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on May 03, 2013, 07:37:45 AM
I wonder if people prefer this kind of mixed program or the usual chronological approach.

When it comes to the vast riches of Haydn, I think it's reasonable to try mixed programs.

So long as I can buy 'em all as a complete set eventually...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on May 05, 2013, 05:41:31 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on May 03, 2013, 07:37:45 AM
I wonder if people prefer this kind of mixed program or the usual chronological approach.

It depends; I enjoy a recital format if a group (or individual) is doing single discs recordings of repertoire and then moving on, but if I'm dealing with a box set I prefer things to be in roughly chronological order. The programming (http://www.amazon.com/Complete-String-Quartets-Beethoven/dp/tracks/B008DK3PJC/ref=dp_tracks_all_full#disc_1) on the Alban Berg Quartet's recording of Beethoven's string quartets drives me nuts, for example.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on May 05, 2013, 05:42:34 PM

Quote from: Geo Dude on May 05, 2013, 05:41:31 AM
It depends; I enjoy a recital format if a group (or individual) is doing single discs recordings of repertoire and then moving on, but if I'm dealing with a box set I prefer things to be in roughly chronological order. The programming (http://www.amazon.com/Complete-String-Quartets-Beethoven/dp/tracks/B008DK3PJC/ref=dp_tracks_all_full#disc_1) on the Alban Berg Quartet's recording of Beethoven's string quartets drives me nuts, for example.

Do be aware that the Artemis Quartet also mixes up the chronological order (unless they assembled the box set differently from the individual releases, which is how I have their cycle). Of course, with full set in hand, you could simply skip around the various CDs and play the works in chronological order.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on May 05, 2013, 07:48:57 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 05, 2013, 05:42:34 PM
Do be aware that the Artemis Quartet also mixes up the chronological order (unless they assembled the box set differently from the individual releases, which is how I have their cycle). Of course, with full set in hand, you could simply skip around the various CDs and play the works in chronological order.

Thanks for the tip; as far as I can tell from looking at images they've mostly rearranged things to be in order.

In other news the Op. 76 quartets in the Mosaiques set are ridiculously good...any suggestions for other recordings? :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 06, 2013, 03:16:55 AM

Posted this in the listening now thread, wanted to share it in the Haus, because every good Haus Mate should obtain this...

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 03, 2013, 02:24:56 PM
Finally arrived from Presto. More than likely will be on repeat most of the evening. Right at the start, Kuijken incorporates some very broad tempos within Le Matin, that allows ample time to enjoy each highly enchanting melody and all of the delightful solos. Although the Menuet dances perfectly. Highly recommended.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51QelhMG71L._SL500_AA350_.jpg)

I have since had a few run throughs and it's magic from beginning to end, there are a few moments where some of the woodwinds get lost behind the strings, but it's minor.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 06, 2013, 04:22:37 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on May 05, 2013, 07:48:57 PM

In other news the Op. 76 quartets in the Mosaiques set are ridiculously good...any suggestions for other recordings? :D

Yes they are. :) It seems odd to me that such a pinnacle of music, recorded so many times, has rather few outstanding versions to choose from. I have 2 that I lean on rather heavily, one PI and one MI, and oddly enough, both on Denon. That would be the Kuijken Quartet and the Carmina Quartet. I rarely recommend them though because of difficulty in obtaining them. What is it with Denon? Anyway, I'm guessing that there will be lots of opinions on this one, so I'll just take mine and stay home with them. :)

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 06, 2013, 03:16:55 AM
...every good Haus Mate should obtain this...

I have since had a few run throughs and it's magic from beginning to end, there are a few moments where some of the woodwinds get lost behind the strings, but it's minor.

Quite agree, it is really an individualistic performance, and very nicely done. Highly recommendable. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on May 06, 2013, 04:48:38 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 06, 2013, 04:22:37 AM
Yes they are. :) It seems odd to me that such a pinnacle of music, recorded so many times, has rather few outstanding versions to choose from. I have 2 that I lean on rather heavily, one PI and one MI, and oddly enough, both on Denon. That would be the Kuijken Quartet and the Carmina Quartet. I rarely recommend them though because of difficulty in obtaining them. What is it with Denon? Anyway, I'm guessing that there will be lots of opinions on this one, so I'll just take mine and stay home with them. :)

Quite agree, it is really an individualistic performance, and very nicely done. Highly recommendable. :)

8)

Carmina are outstanding in op 76. Worth seeking out. You used to be able to get hem easily and cheaply from cdjapan.co.jp

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 06, 2013, 06:01:56 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on May 06, 2013, 04:48:38 AM
Carmina are outstanding in op 76. Worth seeking out. You used to be able to get hem easily and cheaply from cdjapan.co.jp

Glad to have an 'independent' opinion on that, Mandrake. They were my introduction to the works (and Haydn's string quartets, for that matter) and I was never sure if I thought they were superb because they were, or because they were my first. In any case, I've heard a dozen or so since then, but was never as transported by any others. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on May 06, 2013, 11:16:52 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 06, 2013, 04:22:37 AM
Yes they are. :) It seems odd to me that such a pinnacle of music, recorded so many times, has rather few outstanding versions to choose from. I have 2 that I lean on rather heavily, one PI and one MI, and oddly enough, both on Denon. That would be the Kuijken Quartet and the Carmina Quartet. I rarely recommend them though because of difficulty in obtaining them. What is it with Denon? Anyway, I'm guessing that there will be lots of opinions on this one, so I'll just take mine and stay home with them. :)

The nice thing about these obscure, OOP recordings is that they tend to show up on Amazon with an occasional good price on the marketplace; there's often a seller trying to get $10 rather than the usual $1000. Case in point: A copy of the Kuijken Quartet recording was just shipped for $28. ;) It ain't the bargain of the century, but it ain't bad either.

Since we're on the subject of obscure stuff, how is the Kuijken Quartet's recording of Mozart's "Haydn Quartets"?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 06, 2013, 11:38:32 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on May 06, 2013, 11:16:52 AM
The nice thing about these obscure, OOP recordings is that they tend to show up on Amazon with an occasional good price on the marketplace; there's often a seller trying to get $10 rather than the usual $1000. Case in point: A copy of the Kuijken Quartet recording was just shipped for $28. ;) It ain't the bargain of the century, but it ain't bad either.

Since we're on the subject of obscure stuff, how is the Kuijken Quartet's recording of Mozart's "Haydn Quartets"?

I got mine about 2 years ago, a guy had a set on offer (eBay) through a couple of cycles for $75 and it didn't sell. I wrote and offered him $40 and he took it. I was delighted to get it for that. $28 actually IS a bargain!

Well, clearly I am a fan of the Kuijken's, they are all around solid in everything I've heard them in. I have them, the Smithson's and the Mosaiques in that cycle, and I give a slight edge to the Mosaiques (I like their Mozart better than their Haydn, if truth be told). :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on May 06, 2013, 12:51:07 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 06, 2013, 11:38:32 AM
I got mine about 2 years ago, a guy had a set on offer (eBay) through a couple of cycles for $75 and it didn't sell. I wrote and offered him $40 and he took it. I was delighted to get it for that. $28 actually IS a bargain!

Well, clearly I am a fan of the Kuijken's, they are all around solid in everything I've heard them in. I have them, the Smithson's and the Mosaiques in that cycle, and I give a slight edge to the Mosaiques (I like their Mozart better than their Haydn, if truth be told). :)

8)

Thanks for the information. I'm happy to know that I got a bargain. I have an E-Bay story somewhat similar to yours; I bid on a Shostakovich string quartet set and someone outbid me; the seller PM'd me after the auction and said that he had a second copy on hand that he'd be happy to sell me for the amount of the losing bid I had placed with no extra shipping charges. I was never so happy to lose an auction... ;D In any case, I've just finished piecing together my set of Mosaiques' "Haydn Quartets" (supplementing my pre-existing Smithson set) so that news about the Mosaiques being superior is quite nice to hear makes me quite happy. How do you feel about Mosaiques vs Festetics vs Kuijken in the Prussian Quartets?

Related to Haydn, what are your recommendations on Ops. 54, 55, 71 and 74? Those sets seem to be a bit thinner on the ground than others, in particular PI versions; perhaps they're less popular than the other quartets. I will, of course, be perfectly happy with any MI recordings that don't pretend that Haydn is Mahler and is in need of constant, heavy vibrato. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 06, 2013, 01:04:25 PM

Quote from: Geo Dude on May 06, 2013, 12:51:07 PM
Thanks for the information. I'm happy to know that I got a bargain. I have an E-Bay story somewhat similar to yours; I bid on a Shostakovich string quartet set and someone outbid me; the seller PM'd me after the auction and said that he had a second copy on hand that he'd be happy to sell me for the amount of the losing bid I had placed with no extra shipping charges. I was never so happy to lose an auction... ;D In any case, I've just finished piecing together my set of Mosaiques' "Haydn Quartets" (supplementing my pre-existing Smithson set) so that news about the Mosaiques being superior is quite nice to hear makes me quite happy. How do you feel about Mosaiques vs Festetics vs Kuijken in the Prussian Quartets?

I saw you bought that single on your list this morning. You can see the one I got in my sig. I had downloads before so I was delighted to find this. Love the picture too....

I don't have the Kuijkens in those last 4 quartets, I am delighted with both the Festetics and the Mosaiques, not sure I could choose except that the Festetics have a bit more cheeriness to them. I like cheeriness...

QuoteRelated to Haydn, what are your recommendations on Ops. 54, 55, 71 and 74? Those sets seem to be a bit thinner on the ground than others, in particular PI versions; perhaps they're less popular than the other quartets. I will, of course, be perfectly happy with any MI recordings that don't pretend that Haydn is Mahler and is in need of constant, heavy vibrato. :D

You really only have 2 choices, both involving a fair amount of shopping. The Salomon's on Hyperion and the Festetics. There may be an occasional single quartet floating about here and there, but for a set, that's about it. Hyperion kind of messes you around with that Op 71/74 set, giving only 2 per disk so you need 3 disks. Bastards. I like the Salomon's though, I must say. The Festetics kick butt, they are very lively in these works. I don't have much for MI in either opus, the Endellion disk on Virgin which is very nice, and the Kodaly on Naxos, which is a reliable standby. In any given piece or even movement, one's favorite might change from minute to minute. I hate that..... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on May 06, 2013, 10:42:18 PM

For Op 74 I like Pro Arte, Griller, Shuppanzigh, Minetti and Juilliard. For op 71 there's Pro Arte, Griller and a live from Cuarteto Casals. Also I've heard The Amsterdam, but I wasn't so keen. The Minetti are excellent on HAensler, and there's a live Haydn recording from them which is even better.

The Juilliard play Op 71/1 on a live from 1982 in the Library of Congress, and The Rider on an early record released on Testament.

Whenever I think about recordings like this I find myself going back to the old Pro Arte. I feel particularly enthusiastic anout them right now. What jazzy performances! They remind me of those recordings that Django Reinhardt made with Club Hot de France. More so in Haydn than in Mozart or Debussy or Ravel.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Octave on May 07, 2013, 01:06:10 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on May 06, 2013, 10:42:18 PM
[...]The Minetti are excellent on HAensler, and there's a live Haydn recording from them which is even better.

Is the live Minetti a non-commercial recording, from Symphonyshare or some similar source? I did a quick search and Amz/Presto and only saw the single Haenssler disc that you and Jens have recommended.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 07, 2013, 03:58:25 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 06, 2013, 01:04:25 PM

Quote from: Geo Dude on May 06, 2013, 12:51:07 PM
[...]
Related to Haydn, what are your recommendations on Ops. 54, 55, 71 and 74? Those sets seem to be a bit thinner on the ground than others, in particular PI versions; perhaps they're less popular than the other quartets. I will, of course, be perfectly happy with any MI recordings that don't pretend that Haydn is Mahler and is in need of constant, heavy vibrato. :D

You really only have 2 choices, both involving a fair amount of shopping. The Salomon's on Hyperion and the Festetics. There may be an occasional single quartet floating about here and there, but for a set, that's about it. Hyperion kind of messes you around with that Op 71/74 set, giving only 2 per disk so you need 3 disks. Bastards. I like the Salomon's though, I must say. The Festetics kick butt, they are very lively in these works. I don't have much for MI in either opus, the Endellion disk on Virgin which is very nice, and the Kodaly on Naxos, which is a reliable standby. In any given piece or even movement, one's favorite might change from minute to minute. I hate that..... :)

8)

If their style is to your taste (I like them fine, though that liking does not at all impede my enthusiasm for the otherwise style of e.g. the Mosaïques), the Amadeus Quartet traversed the lot:

[asin]B0002U9G9E[/asin]

This was a box I picked up pretty much at the outset of my investigation into "Papa's" quartets, and I snaffled it for a near song at a brick-&-mortar shop which was about to turn up its toes; but I also like this box on the musical merits.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 07, 2013, 04:00:10 AM

P.S./ When I say the lot, I mean the Opp. 54, 55, 71 & 74 after which you enquired : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on May 07, 2013, 04:19:03 AM

Quote from: Octave on May 07, 2013, 01:06:10 AM
Is the live Minetti a non-commercial recording, from Symphonyshare or some similar source? I did a quick search and Amz/Presto and only saw the single Haenssler disc that you and Jens have recommended.

It's a concert recording from Vienna a couple of years ago. When I checked it only has The Bird. There's some Ligeti and Mendelssohn

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 07, 2013, 06:15:43 AM

Almost a year old, I didn't know it existed though. BIG fan of their Monteverdi Vespers, now curious about their Haydn Creation. Anybody?

[asin]B0072IVGR4[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 07, 2013, 06:38:06 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 07, 2013, 06:15:43 AM
Almost a year old, I didn't know it existed though. BIG fan of their Monteverdi Vespers, now curious about their Haydn Creation. Anybody?

[asin]B0072IVGR4[/asin]

I have it wishlisted; it's almost the only PI 'Creation' I don't have yet. FIx that soon enough though. :) FWIW, I have some of their Bach, and their Mozart 'Requiem' which I quite enjoy. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on May 07, 2013, 09:20:22 AM

One more question before I toss out a few recommendations: Gurn (and others) who do you like for Op. 50?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 07, 2013, 09:48:11 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on May 07, 2013, 09:20:22 AM
One more question before I toss out a few recommendations: Gurn (and others) who do you like for Op. 50?

We did a blind test of Op 50 6-8 months ago (longer??) and I turned out to favor the Salomon's. I like the Schuppanzigh's #6, but it is the only one they did. Surprisingly or not, I am rather partial to The Lindsay's version. They feel good with it.

This is my favorite opus, and I have a bunch of recordings, but picking out a favorite is really pretty hard for me. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 07, 2013, 09:51:41 AM

Ah, here's the link to the results thread;

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20285.0.html

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on May 07, 2013, 10:11:56 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on May 07, 2013, 09:20:22 AM
One more question before I toss out a few recommendations: Gurn (and others) who do you like for Op. 50?

This might be of use.
http://www.listenmagazine-digital.com/listenmagazine/201212?pg=23#pg23 (http://www.listenmagazine-digital.com/listenmagazine/201212?pg=23#pg23)
http://www.listenmagazine-digital.com/listenmagazine/201212?pg=25#pg25 (http://www.listenmagazine-digital.com/listenmagazine/201212?pg=25#pg25)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on May 07, 2013, 10:51:59 AM

Thanks to both of you. I ended up going with the Tokyo Quartet recording.

As promised, I will start (slowly) with my recommendations:

[asin]B005TLWOH2[/asin]

Any Haus members that do not own this set should repent for the sin they have committed against Haydn and go get it right now.

EDIT: There was a Brahms quote (possibly spurious) about Haydn that was discussed some time back. Paraphrased, the general effect was, "No one at this time properly appreciates Haydn. He gave us everything."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 07, 2013, 11:04:49 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on May 07, 2013, 10:51:59 AM
Thanks to both of you. I ended up going with the Tokyo Quartet recording.

As promised, I will start (slowly) with my recommendations:

[asin]B005TLWOH2[/asin]

Any Haus members that do not own this set should repent for the sin they have committed against Haydn and go get it right now.

Yeah, I forgot about Tokyo Quartet. Can't go wrong getting the best. :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnWeilSymphoniesboxcover.jpg)

Different cover, same disks. ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 07, 2013, 02:43:17 PM

.[asin]B0058JDCMG[/asin]

I'm having a similar reaction to these performances as I did with Fey's symphonies. Pieces I'm familiar with but with such fresh interpretations it's almost as if I'm experiencing them for the first time. The London Haydn Quartet inject some characteristically unique twists and turns with tempos, while successfully stressing dynamic shifts. Take No.5 in F minor for example, the Adagio and finale Fuge a 2 Soggetti almost blend together, like a continuation of each other, the Fuge begins smoothly at a similar tempo to the ending of the previous movement. But when the Fuge comes to an end, its intensely sharp-edged. Another example are the arpeggios that accompany the beginning of No. 4 in D major, they arrive briskly and brashly in between the calm bookends, passing by like a speeding train. Playing with classical bows on gut strings, this group really creates an interesting tone.
The Op. 20 contains some of my favorite string quartet movements from Haydn's oeuvre, including one of my all time favorites in No. 5, and this recording reaffirms my admiration for these works, and could likely move to the top of the pile of Haydn string quartet recordings. Basically, I'm floored by these performances. Their June release of Op. 33 has been pre-ordered.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 07, 2013, 04:14:18 PM

I've been getting those disks since their first release of Op 9. I have to say that when I started with them, Op 9 and 17 were not my favorite interps of. I found them to be very tame and, I don't know, like a recital, you know, overly perfect so to say. I like an element of rowdyism in my Haydn, maybe not what one would look for in Mozart for example. Those who share this taste know exactly what I am talking about, those who don't probably never will. ;)

However, I thought Op 20 was much more as though they had found themselves. It's a very nice set that I am pleased to have. Op 33 is on MY pre-order too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 07, 2013, 04:26:59 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 07, 2013, 04:14:18 PM
I've been getting those disks since their first release of Op 9. I have to say that when I started with them, Op 9 and 17 were not my favorite interps of. I found them to be very tame and, I don't know, like a recital, you know, overly perfect so to say. I like an element of rowdyism in my Haydn, maybe not what one would look for in Mozart for example. Those who share this taste know exactly what I am talking about, those who don't probably never will. ;)

However, I thought Op 20 was much more as though they had found themselves. It's a very nice set that I am pleased to have. Op 33 is on MY pre-order too. :)

8)

Interesting to hear, Gurn. This Op. 20 is my introduction to this group, so I would have expected similar results with their earlier releases. Let's hope they stick with their unique presentations with No. 33. Samples on iTunes of the Op. 33 sound good so far.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 07, 2013, 04:39:06 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 07, 2013, 04:26:59 PM
Interesting to hear, Gurn. This Op. 20 is my introduction to this group, so I would have expected similar results with their earlier releases. Let's hope they stick with their unique presentations with No. 33. Samples on iTunes of the Op. 33 sound good so far.

Well, Greg, don't think that the earlier ones aren't very good. They are just not to my taste. You may find them perfect, I don't know what and why certain things appeal to different people. :) Good news about Op 33, always one of my favorites! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on May 08, 2013, 12:02:51 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 07, 2013, 04:14:18 PM
I've been getting those disks since their first release of Op 9. I have to say that when I started with them, Op 9 and 17 were not my favorite interps of. I found them to be very tame and, I don't know, like a recital, you know, overly perfect so to say. I like an element of rowdyism in my Haydn, maybe not what one would look for in Mozart for example. Those who share this taste know exactly what I am talking about, those who don't probably never will. ;)

Are you talking about the Festetics, Gurn? :D I agree, the only way to know is listen to by jenself.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 07, 2013, 04:14:18 PM
However, I thought Op 20 was much more as though they had found themselves. It's a very nice set that I am pleased to have. Op 33 is on MY pre-order too. :)

Who knows, maybe I'll give a new chance to the London Haydn Quartet. I bought their Op. 9, but it was so sweet and smooth and nice that I decided to skip their next releases what was a hard decision regarding a PI instruments ensemble doing a complete Haydn traversal.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 08, 2013, 04:15:23 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on May 08, 2013, 12:02:51 AM
Are you talking about the Festetics, Gurn? :D I agree, the only way to know is listen to by ***self.
Who knows, maybe I'll give a new chance to the London Haydn Quartet. I bought their Op. 9, but it was so sweet and smooth and nice that I decided to skip their next releases what was a hard decision regarding a PI instruments ensemble doing a complete Haydn traversal.

Yes, creamy perfection, parfait! But I like Op 20 and have every hope of liking Op 33. Just as an aside, and speaking of Op 33, the only 2 disks that I was lacking for a complete Salomon's set were those 2 of Op 33. I got one yesterday and the other is inbound (from Zoverstocks in Britain). Despite my reservations about having 13 disks in a series, I will be pleased to have assembled the entire. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on May 08, 2013, 05:41:00 AM

Gurn, do you feel that Mosaiques Haydn is perhaps a bit too 'perfect' and not rowdy enough? I ask because listening to Op. 76 yesterday that was pretty much the only criticism I could think of. If so, it will be interesting to see how that Kuijken set contrasts when it arrives.

And you people... :P I've ordered London Haydn Quartet's Op. 17 (don't have Op. 17 on hand) and now I'll probably find myself ordering Op. 20 later this month or early next month to see how it contrasts with the Mosaiques recording (when that arrives). This business of a change in style has me curious.

Quote from: sanantonio on May 07, 2013, 05:07:45 PM
I recently heard the Meta4 do the Op. 55,No. 1-3. Not a period group, but, such wonderful playing.

[asin]B0021R51E0[/asin]

I've heard some samples of that; it was promptly wish listed.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 08, 2013, 06:04:06 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on May 08, 2013, 05:41:00 AM
Gurn, do you feel that Mosaiques Haydn is perhaps a bit too 'perfect' and not rowdy enough? I ask because listening to Op. 76 yesterday that was pretty much the only criticism I could think of. If so, it will be interesting to see how that Kuijken set contrasts when it arrives.

And you people... :P I've ordered London Haydn Quartet's Op. 17 (don't have Op. 17 on hand) and now I'll probably find myself ordering Op. 20 later this month or early next month to see how it contrasts with the Mosaiques recording (when that arrives). This business of a change in style has me curious.

Well, to a small extent, I DO feel that way, although in Op 76 I found the Festetics to be TOO sloppy. Looking at the big picture, Op 76 was composed in 1796-97 to be played by professional musicians, and after his London experience where string quartets were played on stage during orchestral concerts. They are a world removed from the early quartets of ~1770 which were not necessarily even composed to be published, let alone performed in public. Rather they were more intended for his garage band to play on Saturday night when the Prince was off partying. So to speak. You can see that the atmosphere for these is not the same. IMO, of course. That is why it satisfies me to hear them performed in a more unbuttoned style. The LHQ is a very fine ensemble, undeniably so. Anyone who doesn't subscribe to my admittedly eccentric viewpoint should really like these disks. And of course, the later works should be excellent. I'm looking forward to same. My ideal Op 76, the one that I have in my flac collection of 'complete Haydn', consists of the Kuijkens playing #1-3 and the Mosaiques playing 4-6. In my ears, the Kuijkens are a bit more carefree, but not at all sloppy.

I really am not too glib when it comes to explaining why I like some things and then like others less. "It feels right..." is simply not adequate. But reading the history and forming a mental picture surrounding that is unquestionably influential in affecting my sense of 'rightness'. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 08, 2013, 06:27:09 AM

My real attraction to the Mosaiques is the tone they produce, I prefer other interpretations to theirs (Op.20, Op.33, Op.77, Op.103 and Seven Words) but the recorded sound and the instruments of the Mosaiques are top rate. And of course the stellar musicianship is apparent.

I've been enjoying the Buchberger Quartet lately, they are a little more care free, and even a bit erratic at times causing a lack in clarity in some quicker melodies, but they create some real excitement with the music.

I don't really have a favorite performer when it comes the String Quartets, I'm still all over the place with recordings (Takacs, Mosaiques, Buchberger, Ulbrich, Lindsays, Emerson, London Haydn Quartet, Endellion , Jerusalem, Smithson...) and the closest I have to a full set would be Kodaly.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 08, 2013, 06:42:03 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 08, 2013, 06:27:09 AM
My real attraction to the Mosaiques is the tone they produce, I prefer other interpretations to theirs (Op.20, Op.33, Op.77, Op.103 and Seven Words) but the recorded sound and the instruments of the Mosaiques are top rate. And of course the stellar musicianship is apparent.

I've been enjoying the Buchberger Quartet lately, they are a little more care free, and even a bit erratic at times causing a lack in clarity in some quicker melodies, but they create some real excitement with the music.

I don't really have a favorite performer when it comes the String Quartets, I'm still all over the place with recordings (Takacs, Mosaiques, Buchberger, Ulbrich, Lindsays, Emerson, London Haydn Quartet, Endellion , Jerusalem, Smithson...) and the closest I have to a full set would be Kodaly.

I agree with much of what you say. Choosing a favorite performance of a string quartet is not nearly so simple as it is with orchestral works, which tend to be (IMO) either right or wrong. Just like the playing of them, the listening of string quartets is deeply personal too. I would just point out that I quite enjoy the Tokyo's Op 76 (!!), way more than the Takacs, for example. Who else would write something like that? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on May 08, 2013, 07:33:30 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 07, 2013, 09:48:11 AM
We did a blind test of Op 50 6-8 months ago (longer??) and I turned out to favor the Salomon's. I like the Schuppanzigh's #6, but it is the only one they did. Surprisingly or not, I am rather partial to The Lindsay's version. They feel good with it.

This is my favorite opus, and I have a bunch of recordings, but picking out a favorite is really pretty hard for me. :)

8)

I thought the Festetics Op 50 was the best of their Haydn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on May 08, 2013, 07:44:01 AM

Speaking of the Festetics, any thoughts on their Op. 65 set? I'm a bit gun-shy after their Op. 50 set: I expected to love that, but the intonation was so poor that I couldn't make it through the first disc. (That has literally never happened to me before.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 08, 2013, 07:45:28 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on May 08, 2013, 07:33:30 AM
I thought the Festetics Op 50 was the best of their Haydn.

Was that what you picked in the test? I know I picked Salomon's in #1 and Schuppanzigh in #6, but I didn't really note what choices others made. I like Festetics more in the earlier ones and Mosaiques better in the later ones...

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on May 08, 2013, 08:12:13 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on May 08, 2013, 07:44:01 AM
Speaking of the Festetics, any thoughts on their Op. 65 set? I'm a bit gun-shy after their Op. 50 set: I expected to love that, but the intonation was so poor that I couldn't make it through the first disc. (That has literally never happened to me before.)

IMO, they don't have any problem of intonation. Jens and the people who have denounced their "poor intonation" simply dislike the tone and color of their violins, not sufficiently "steely", as the sound produced by metal strings. So, I believe there isn't a problem of poor intonation or amateurish approach (an old objection regarding HIP ensembles in 70s and early 80s), but a fundamental disagreement about the concept managed by this ensemble and the palette of colors created by them, which tends towards a homogeneous conversational tone more than a discourse more or less conducted by the first violin.

In short, if the issue is the "poor intonation" the answer will be exactly the same about every volume recorded by the Festetics because it's a problem of musical concept.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 08, 2013, 08:18:23 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on May 08, 2013, 08:12:13 AM
IMO, they don't have any problem of intonation. Jens and the people who have denounced their "poor intonation" simply dislike the tone and color of their violins, not sufficiently "steely", as the sound produced by metal strings. So, I believe there isn't a problem of poor intonation or amateurish approach (an old objection regarding HIP ensembles in 70s and early 80s), but a fundamental disagreement about the concept managed by this ensemble and the palette of colors created by them, which tends towards a homogeneous conversational tone more than a discourse more or less conducted by the first violin.

In short, if the issue is the "poor intonation" the answer will be exactly the same about every volume recorded by the Festetics because it's a problem of musical concept.

I agree with that. Especially since the phrase 'poor intonation' is nearly always followed by 'sour tone'. Frankly I don't hear either one of those things. I really don't think they were at their best in Op 76, but that aside, I like all the others. I just don't like to have only one take on things, that's why I have a variety of alternate versions in my collection. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on May 08, 2013, 08:23:07 AM

Yes I rather like the dark colours of Festetics, who in respect to colour remind of of Tatrai, especially cello. My problem with them is to do with stolidness, but that's not a deal breaker in some of the op 64/65 quartets. i like Festetics in Op64/2 for example, so humane in the adagio. I think I prefer them to Mosaiques here and elsewhere, despite the attractive litheness of Mosaiques.

By the way, if you're interested in op 65 (= op 64 4-6), then one very fine recording is Pro Arte in op 64/6. Another very fine ensemble in these quartets is Caspar de Salo, those two would be my top choices here I think.

I've just started to listen to Buchberger, by the way.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on May 08, 2013, 08:30:24 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on May 08, 2013, 08:12:13 AM
IMO, they don't have any problem of intonation. Jens and the people who have denounced their "poor intonation" simply dislike the tone and color of their violins, not sufficiently "steely", as the sound produced by metal strings. So, I believe there isn't a problem of poor intonation or amateurish approach (an old objection regarding HIP ensembles in 70s and early 80s), but a fundamental disagreement about the concept managed by this ensemble and the palette of colors created by them, which tends towards a homogeneous conversational tone more than a discourse more or less conducted by the first violin.

In short, if the issue is the "poor intonation" the answer will be exactly the same about every volume recorded by the Festetics because it's a problem of musical concept.

I think Jens has enough knowledge of and affinity for PI to not be distracted by gut vs metal string.
(Not having ever heard the Haydn recording in question, I can't say if I would call it 'bad intonation" or something else. But I do think the phrase "sour tone' could be applied to the Mozart recording I do have.)
But I think the statement of yours which I bolded catches the essence of why I didn't like the Festetics Mozart recording--what I want is heterogeneous conversation, in which all the instruments are equal partners but are sufficiently differentiated to make a more varied palette of tones. I don't think the Festetics managed this, and that fatally undermined the performance. Mandryka's use of the word 'stolidness' resonates with me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 08, 2013, 08:30:33 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on May 08, 2013, 08:23:07 AM
Yes I rather like the dark colours of Festetics, who in respect to colour remind of of Tatrai, especially cello. My problem with them is to do with stolidness, but that's not a deal breaker in some of the op 64/65 quartets. i like Festetics in Op64/2 for example, so humane in the adagio. I think I prefer them to Mosaiques here and elsewhere, despite the attractive litheness of Mosaiques.

By the way, if you're interested in op 65 (= op 64 4-6), then one very fine recording is Pro Arte in op 64/6. Another very fine ensemble in these quartets is Caspar de Salo, those two would be my top choices here ai think.

I've just started to listen to Buchberger, by the way.

Caspar de Salo! Yes, those are very nice recordings, no matter who they are really by! I think they skip some repeats, but what they play they play well. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 08, 2013, 08:42:11 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 08, 2013, 08:30:24 AM
I think Jens has enough knowledge of and affinity for PI to not be distracted by gut vs metal string.
(Not having ever heard the Haydn recording in question, I can't say if I would call it 'bad intonation" or something else. But I do think the phrase "sour tone' could be applied to the Mozart recording I do have.)
But I think the statement of yours which I bolded catches the essence of why I didn't like the Festetics Mozart recording--what I want is heterogeneous conversation, in which all the instruments are equal partners but are sufficiently differentiated to make a more varied palette of tones. I don't think the Festetics managed this, and that fatally undermined the performance. Mandryka's use of the word 'stolidness' resonates with me.

No need to single out any one person, there are actually many who share that POV . It's more of a like it or don't thing. What's irritating is the concept that if something doesn't suit ones taste, it is because they can't play. Lots that I don't like, but you rarely see me say so.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on May 08, 2013, 08:51:52 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 08, 2013, 07:45:28 AM
Was that what you picked in the test? I know I picked Salomon's in #1 and Schuppanzigh in #6, but I didn't really note what choices others made. I like Festetics more in the earlier ones and Mosaiques better in the later ones...

8)

No, I didn't do this test.

I too like op 50 a lot, I'm curious about the Tokyo set that GeoDude ordered, I've never heard it.

There are lots of good op 50 records -- I like Tatrai for example, and Amati. I'll play Salomon in #1 and Schuppanzigh in #6 soon -- thanks for mentioning them.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 08, 2013, 08:56:29 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on May 08, 2013, 08:51:52 AM
No, I didn't do this test.

I too like op 50 a lot, I'm curious about the Tokyo set that GeoDude ordered, I've never heard it.

There are lots of good op 50 records -- I like Tatrai for example, and Amati

Yes, I have Tatrai & Amati too (on CD) . I think tatrai are better here than in Ip 76. I like Amati a lot. hard to recommend though, where do you buy Divox these days? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on May 08, 2013, 09:01:19 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 08, 2013, 08:56:29 AM
Yes, I have Tatrai & Amati too (on CD) . I think tatrai are better here than in Ip 76. I like Amati a lot. hard to recommend though, where do you buy Divox these days? :)

8)

That's soooo old fashioned. You stream Amati though spotify.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 08, 2013, 09:22:06 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on May 08, 2013, 09:01:19 AM
That's soooo old fashioned. You stream Amati though spotify.

You young moderns are far too much for me! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 08, 2013, 09:42:45 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on May 08, 2013, 09:36:25 AM
Well, some of us sexagenarians have embraced streaming audio.

;)

Well, Texans are known for their mastery in every situation. I am ill equipped for streaming, at least of the data sort. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 08, 2013, 10:27:11 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 08, 2013, 08:30:24 AM
I think Jens has enough knowledge of and affinity for PI to not be distracted by gut vs metal string.

So do I. I love the sound of the Mosaiques, Apponyi, Schuppanzigh, L'Archibudelli. I have no problem with PI quartets in general. The Festestics, though, I find quite grating...and, at least in the op.50, quite boring.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 08, 2013, 11:11:34 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 08, 2013, 10:27:11 AM
So do I. I love the sound of the Mosaiques, Apponyi, Schuppanzigh, L'Archibudelli. I have no problem with PI quartets in general. The Festestics, though, I find quite grating...and, at least in the op.50, quite boring.

Sarge

Along those same lines, I have fortepiano/pianoforte recordings of the same works, some of which I'd wager you would love and some of which I'd wager you wouldn't. How does this differ? This is why I don't say specifically that any particular person has any particular issues. You never know what someone will like and what they won't. It is only a question of personal preference. And as I said earlier, my only source of irritation with anyone expressing his/her preference is when the blame for not liking something is put off as 'they can't play' or something on those lines. If one just says 'that doesn't suit me at all' that is sufficient unto the day, IMO. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on May 08, 2013, 04:06:36 PM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on May 08, 2013, 08:12:13 AM
IMO, they don't have any problem of intonation. Jens and the people who have denounced their "poor intonation" simply dislike the tone and color of their violins, not sufficiently "steely", as the sound produced by metal strings. So, I believe there isn't a problem of poor intonation or amateurish approach (an old objection regarding HIP ensembles in 70s and early 80s), but a fundamental disagreement about the concept managed by this ensemble and the palette of colors created by them, which tends towards a homogeneous conversational tone more than a discourse more or less conducted by the first violin.

In short, if the issue is the "poor intonation" the answer will be exactly the same about every volume recorded by the Festetics because it's a problem of musical concept.

I recall liking their Op. 9 so my reaction to their 50 surprised me; maybe I'll give it another try and see if it was just the mood I was in or something. I don't tend to have problems with gut strings (I love period strings, in fact), so I don't think I was reacting to that, though.

EDIT: Curious about the Tatrai Quartet, but unable to find any samples on Amazon, I headed to YouTube. I found Opps. 33 and 76 in complete form and several other quartets. That place is officially the King of Samples.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 08, 2013, 06:36:28 PM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on May 08, 2013, 08:12:13 AM
IMO, they don't have any problem of intonation. Jens and the people who have denounced their "poor intonation" simply dislike the tone and color of their violins, not sufficiently "steely", as the sound produced by metal strings.

I never implied such a thing. I even took pains to clarify in my post:

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on May 07, 2013, 01:42:40 PM
....And the fact that they're PI doesn't factor into the equation at all.

Anyway, you make no bones about your dislike for Minkowski. What's the difference between that and my dislike for the QF?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on May 08, 2013, 08:18:05 PM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on May 08, 2013, 06:36:28 PM
I never implied such a thing. I even took pains to clarify in my post:

Anyway, you make no bones about your dislike for Minkowski. What's the difference between that and my dislike for the QF?

Believe on me if I say I didn't write my previous message as a response to any of your messages. I'm aware you wrote a message in the "Listening Thread", but it's all. This discussion already has some years, for instance, when I posted in 2009 that the Festetics cycle would be completed and reissued, when Arcana changed of owner after an auction in France:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?topic=3866.120

Then we had a long discussion about the merit of the Festetics, including at some point the "amateurish" thing and other "features" revived these days.

I even recall I posted one movement from the Op. 9 by the Festectics and the London Haydn Quartet, respectively, and the opinions were divided:

http://www.divshare.com/flash/playlist?myId=7218363-0da

http://www.goear.com/files/external.swf?file=52b854a

Regarding your preference for Minkowski, naturally I don't have any problem at all. My own quibbles are merely interpretative because I think he hasn't any sensibility towards Haydn's music, so he doesn't understand anything about irony, subtleties, unexpected but natural changes of course in the music, etc. IMO, his Haydn is a thing quite straightforward and sometimes even vulgar. His band plays period instruments, but I don't share any of his interpretative decisions. That's all folks. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on May 09, 2013, 06:33:54 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on May 08, 2013, 04:06:36 PM
Curious about the Tatrai Quartet, but unable to find any samples on Amazon, I headed to YouTube. I found Opps. 33 and 76 in complete form and several other quartets. That place is officially the King of Samples.

Did you like what you listened to, Geo? :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 09, 2013, 06:42:47 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on May 09, 2013, 06:33:54 AM
Did you like what you listened to, Geo? :)

My question too. I know you like them, Gordo, and you know I am 'not so much' (thought their Op 50 was good though). Curious about what others think too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on May 09, 2013, 07:09:29 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 09, 2013, 06:42:47 AM
My question too. I know you like them, Gordo, and you know I am 'not so much' (thought their Op 50 was good though). Curious about what others think too. :)

8)

Even our Haydinisto in chief can make mistakes sometimes. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 09, 2013, 07:43:22 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on May 09, 2013, 07:09:29 AM
Even our Haydinisto in chief can make mistakes sometimes. ;)

What, you don't think their Op 50 is good? :)

Well, if I am being accused of being too discriminating, it will certainly be the first time for that! I am giving up my virginity on that score, finally!

:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on May 09, 2013, 08:58:04 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 09, 2013, 07:43:22 AM
What, you don't think their Op 50 is good? :)

I just have a foggy, but favorable memory of their interpretation in the Op. 50.

BTW, I feel that everyday I'm more skeptic of the benefits of comparative listening. If it's not to my taste, I know almost immediately. If it is, the general picture seems more important than comparisons movement by movement.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on May 09, 2013, 12:26:30 PM

Generally any movement to movement comparative listening I do is to get a feel for a recording of music that I'm picky about and find which interpretation I prefer before I buy it. Like others I do tend to realize quickly which contenders will not make the cut. That said, I do tend to do work to work (as opposed to movement to movement) comparative listening when I have more than one interpretation in my collection and find that it has produces the sort of benefits Mandryka brought up.

As for the Tatrai, I listened to part of their set of Op. 50 and decided that it wasn't for me. A solid performance to be sure, but I was not fond of the tone (mind you, I am NOT suggesting intonation problems, just a difference in preference) and I found it a bit too reserved, lacking a certain something that Haydn requires. The sound is also a bit distant for my taste, but that's not their fault and it could also have a lot to do with the fact that I'm listening to a YouTube video rather than a CD.

Speaking of Haydn and reserved performances, I must admit that it has taken a while for me to really begin to get into this disc that Gurn recommended some time back:

[asin]B002DYLU0A[/asin]

The performances are quite reserved, in particular for Haydn, and don't have the same verve or life that this disc of Michael Haydn and Mozart's duos by Podger and Rogers (http://www.amazon.com/Mozart-M-Haydn-Duo-Sonatas/dp/B005OJJJAE/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&qid=1368129868&sr=8-11&keywords=haydn+violin+duo) does, for example. For a long time it seemed a bit lethargic, in particular for a period instrument performance, but after about six or seven listens it's really started to win me over as an 'evening' disc due to the players' beautiful tone and especially their attention to the little details within the music. Recommended, but you may want to speak to the Lord of Haydnia about an alternative interpretation (ideally in the original violin/viola instrumentation) to pair it with.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 09, 2013, 03:47:52 PM

Quote from: Geo Dude on May 09, 2013, 12:26:30 PM
As for the Tatrai, I listened to part of their set of Op. 50 and decided that it wasn't for me. A solid performance to be sure, but I was not fond of the tone (mind you, I am NOT suggesting intonation problems, just a difference in preference) and I found it a bit too reserved, lacking a certain something that Haydn requires. The sound is also a bit distant for my taste, but that's not their fault and it could also have a lot to do with the fact that I'm listening to a YouTube video rather than a CD.

That's the way I felt about their Op 76, one of the few disks I have ever sold! :)

QuoteSpeaking of Haydn and reserved performances, I must admit that it has taken a while for me to really begin to get into this disc that Gurn recommended some time back:

[asin]B002DYLU0A[/asin]

The performances are quite reserved, in particular for Haydn, and don't have the same verve or life that this disc of Michael Haydn and Mozart's duos by Podger and Rogers (http://www.amazon.com/Mozart-M-Haydn-Duo-Sonatas/dp/B005OJJJAE/ref=sr_1_11?ie=UTF8&qid=1368129868&sr=8-11&keywords=haydn+violin+duo) does, for example. For a long time it seemed a bit lethargic, in particular for a period instrument performance, but after about six or seven listens it's really started to win me over as an 'evening' disc due to the players' beautiful tone and especially their attention to the little details within the music. Recommended, but you may want to speak to the Lord of Haydnia about an alternative interpretation (ideally in the original violin/viola instrumentation) to pair it with.

I honestly feel that the rather introverted and calm and relaxing way this disk plays out is exactly the way this music is supposed to feel, especially if you have listened to a lot of baryton trios (which these works came right in the middle of). They have much the same outlook. I came to them from a beautiful version for cello and violin;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/71JloMjbpWL_zpscc1b8a52.jpg)

which, if anything, is even more contemplative. That arrangement is not by Haydn, BTW.

Another version to consider, if modern instruments don't disturb your inner harmony, is this one, which I think is quite nice;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnViolinampViolaDuoscoverfront_zps2ecd2a42.jpg)

Steck and Goosses get the lion's share of airplay from me, but I like both of the others too. The cello version, especially has beautifully resonant cello. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 09, 2013, 04:22:24 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 09, 2013, 03:47:52 PM
... one of the few disks I have ever sold! :)

Well, this is a day full of surprises! : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 09, 2013, 04:27:01 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on May 09, 2013, 04:22:24 PM
Well, this is a day full of surprises! : )

It even surprises me! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on May 09, 2013, 05:14:43 PM

Fair enough, Gurn. It's just not what one expects if they're not familiar with Haydn from that period. I do have a disc of baryton trios I should dig out...

In any case, are you familiar with this recording?

[asin]B002OR187Q[/asin]

For that matter, this looks interesting, too:

[asin]B002ED6VNG[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on May 09, 2013, 05:18:23 PM

Quote from: Geo Dude on May 09, 2013, 12:26:30 PM
As for the Tatrai, I listened to part of their set of Op. 50 and decided that it wasn't for me. A solid performance to be sure, but I was not fond of the tone (mind you, I am NOT suggesting intonation problems, just a difference in preference) and I found it a bit too reserved, lacking a certain something that Haydn requires. The sound is also a bit distant for my taste, but that's not their fault and it could also have a lot to do with the fact that I'm listening to a YouTube video rather than a CD.

After the previous conversation, this afternoon I was listening to their "Prussian Quatets" and my impressions were:

Sound quality: Quite good and immediate for a 1977 recording.

Performance: Sterner than playful, a sort of proto-HIP approach. A dark, not excessively bright tone on the part of the violins. Nice contribution of the cello. I frequently think these Hungarians conserved better some musical traditions than other parts of Europe.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on May 09, 2013, 05:37:58 PM

Quote from: Geo Dude on May 09, 2013, 05:14:43 PM
[asin]B002OR187Q[/asin]

A recent release of this repertory:

(http://c3.cduniverse.ws/PhantomArt/Large/59/2183159.jpg)

QuoteThese unique works -- the only ones for violin and viola in Haydn's oeuvre -- are thought to have been written in the late 1760s or early 1770s, the period during which the composer was employed at the Esterházy court. Little is known about the circumstances of their composition, but most of Haydn's works for violin at this time were intended for the leader of the court chapel, Luigi Tomasini. The pieces certainly tend towards being solo compositions for the violin, which is accorded the bulk of the melodic interest, with an obbligato viola part providing the harmonic support.

Accalimed violinist Federico Guglielmo studied at the Conservatorio Benedetto Marcello in Venice, later specialising in Baroque and Classical violin repertoire, and has won prizes in numerous international competitions. In this recording he plays alongside Massimo Piva, a past principal violist of Europa Galante and the Orchestra di Padova e del Veneto.

Other information:
- A rare combination, violin and viola, but one that challenges the genius of Haydn: his sonatas for this duo are treasures of invention and wit in perfect Viennese style.
- Haydn probably wrote these sonatas during his residency at the Esterhazy court, for the Kapellmeister of the orchestra, Luigi Tomasini, apparently a virtuoso on his instrument, judging from the demanding violin part, the viola supplying the necessary harmonic funding.
- Played by two of Italy's best known violinists in the field of early music: Federico Guglielmo (with numerous recordings under his name, solo and with his ensemble Arte del'Arco) and Massimo Piva, first violist of Europa Galante.
- Includes notes on the music and artist biographies.

http://www.youtube.com/v/UbXzTT4BrRc

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 09, 2013, 06:39:04 PM

Quote from: Geo Dude on May 09, 2013, 05:14:43 PM
Fair enough, Gurn. It's just not what one expects if they're not familiar with Haydn from that period. I do have a disc of baryton trios I should dig out...

In any case, are you familiar with this recording?

[asin]B002OR187Q[/asin]

For that matter, this looks interesting, too:

[asin]B002ED6VNG[/asin]

As an oddity, that ranks high. Despite the picture of the Hungaroton disk (which I don't have), that ASIN etc is the one for the Steck disk, as you note in the details where it says it is on Accent. I was certainly curious when I clicked on the link and it said that I bought it already in 2009!! :D

The "sonatas for fortepiano & violin" is an interesting disk. here are 3 short sonatas that are claimed to be Haydn's, but with no substantive evidence to support it. Nice works though. The other 2 works on there are piano trios that were published as trios in London, but published the same year as sonatas in Vienna. Apparently Haydn went either way with them. They are nicely performed and present an interesting, possibly authentic alternative.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 09, 2013, 06:40:38 PM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on May 09, 2013, 05:37:58 PM
A recent release of this repertory:

(http://c3.cduniverse.ws/PhantomArt/Large/59/2183159.jpg)

http://www.youtube.com/v/UbXzTT4BrRc

I shall have that as soon as possible. An intriguing idea; Italian style Haydn. :) Thanks for the pointer.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on May 09, 2013, 07:29:04 PM

Hmm...I remembered why I hadn't listened to the Baryton Trios in a while: I have a pretty serious sinus problem (virtually permanent since I live in the allergy center of the country) that makes my ears very sensitive to any deep, resonant sound. Bach's Cello Suites are also out for the same reason. :( Quite nice music for the fifteen minutes that I could listen before the pain got too sharp, though.

In any case, that new violin/viola recording is great to hear about; the price is certainly right! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on May 09, 2013, 09:02:39 PM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on May 09, 2013, 05:18:23 PM
After the previous conversation, this afternoon I was listening to their "Prussian Quatets" and my impressions were:

Sound quality: Quite good and immediate for a 1977 recording.

Performance: Sterner than playful, a sort of proto-HIP approach. A dark, not excessively bright tone on the part of the violins. Nice contribution of the cello. I frequently think these Hungarians conserved better some musical traditions than other parts of Europe.

Yes, the grim severe quality from Tateai op 50 is nice, and their grey tones. I like their op 20 too.

Tatrai have made some other fine records - Bartok 6, the Schubert quintet Beethoven op 127 and some Brahms.

Line up changed over the years so you have to be careful.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on May 10, 2013, 06:09:57 AM

But it must be admitted that it is good, in a way, for all that there are people -- a vast majority -- who (seem to) overly care about the performers' takes and are intent on making top-10 lists (again, not referring to you specifically, Mandyrka). Otherwise there's no point to the recording business and, as a result, no 10 pages of back-and-forth, though good-natured, "I prefer the Mosaiques/Festetics to the Festetics/Mosaiques".

Now, to Haydn. How did he spend his Friday evenings?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 10, 2013, 06:27:10 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on May 10, 2013, 06:09:57 AM
Now, to Haydn. How did he spend his Friday evenings?

Well, of course, I've already mentioned the garage band that he and Tomasini had going. Then they would stand on street corners in Vienna smoking cigarettes and playing their fiddles to reel in the Frauleins. His leather jacket is hanging in a display at the Museum of the Gesselschaft der Musikfreunde in Vienna even today! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on May 10, 2013, 06:51:33 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 10, 2013, 06:27:10 AM
Well, of course, I've already mentioned the garage band that he and Tomasini had going. Then they would stand on street corners in Vienna smoking cigarettes and playing their fiddles to reel in the Frauleins.

I heard that it was during one of those evenings that the inspiration for Op.33/3 struck him. :P

QuoteHis leather jacket is hanging in a display at the Museum of the Gesselschaft der Musikfreunde in Vienna even today! :D

8)

Calling Sarge/Monkey Greg. We need Haydn in a leather jacket.
;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 10, 2013, 09:46:07 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on May 10, 2013, 06:51:33 AM

Calling Sarge/Monkey Greg. We need Haydn in a leather jacket.
;D

Oh! I'll work on this.

And normally what follows is a touch-up or two from Sarge. Followed by another touch-up or two from Jens. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 10, 2013, 09:57:37 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 10, 2013, 09:46:07 AM
Oh! I'll work on this.

And normally what follows is a touch-up or two from Sarge. Followed by another touch-up or two from Jens. ;)

We're all about the communal effort, here!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 11, 2013, 07:12:11 PM

Quote from: Opus106 on May 10, 2013, 06:51:33 AM
Calling Sarge/Monkey Greg. We need Haydn in a leather jacket.
;D

Haydn Dean (http://gregscottmoeller.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/haydn-dean.jpg)

(http://gregscottmoeller.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/haydn-dean.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on May 11, 2013, 11:03:39 PM

Seeing as my comments on the Festetics Op. 50 a couple of pages back lead to a minor dust-up, I thought it was only fair that I mention that I listened to the Op. 9 recording this evening (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21492.msg716580.html#msg716583) and had a more positive impression, just like I remembered.

Speaking of Haydn's quartets, after listening to Ops. 64 and 76 I have concluded that Haydn invented the galloping riff, later popularized by Thin Lizzy and Iron Maiden. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Octave on May 11, 2013, 11:23:36 PM

Quote from: Geo Dude on May 11, 2013, 11:03:39 PM
Speaking of Haydn's quartets, after listening to Ops. 64 and 76 I have concluded that Haydn invented the galloping riff, later popularized by Thin Lizzy and Iron Maiden. 8)

Thank you for that chuckle! I raise my glass to you:

(http://24.media.tumblr.com/8affae59eff7b56a8acb2a63ae559fb8/tumblr_ml8k9xFPbL1r8hznuo1_400.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on May 12, 2013, 05:16:53 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 11, 2013, 07:12:11 PM
Haydn Dean (http://gregscottmoeller.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/haydn-dean.jpg)

;D Very nice!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 12, 2013, 08:02:46 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 10, 2013, 06:27:10 AM
Well, of course, I've already mentioned the garage band that he...had going. They would stand on street corners in Vienna smoking cigarettes and playing their fiddles to reel in the Frauleins. His leather jacket is hanging in a display at the Museum of the Gesselschaft der Musikfreunde in Vienna even today! :D

8)

The Haydn/Mozart/Vanhal/Ditters Quartet...standing on the street corner (left click to enlarge).

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/HaydnMozartvanhaldittersquartet.jpg)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 12, 2013, 08:07:07 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 12, 2013, 08:02:46 AM
The Haydn/Mozart/Vanhal/Ditters Quartet...standing on the street corner (left click to enlarge).

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/HaydnMozartvanhaldittersquartet.jpg)

Sarge

Ha! Splendid, Sarge!

Vienna; Christmas Eve, 1783.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 12, 2013, 08:07:27 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 11, 2013, 07:12:11 PM
Haydn Dean (http://gregscottmoeller.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/haydn-dean.jpg)

(http://gregscottmoeller.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/haydn-dean.jpg)

Love it...his facial expression complements perfectly the hand gesture :D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 12, 2013, 08:12:44 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 12, 2013, 08:07:27 AM
Love it...his facial expression complements perfectly the hand gesture :D

Sarge

Yes indeed. Someone, somewhere, finally found something to match that big, bland face that Hardy stuck in there. :) You guys are good. I played around with that for a while the other day but it overcame me. Even with a gorgeous Brando portrait to start with. Ah well... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on May 12, 2013, 08:13:32 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 12, 2013, 08:02:46 AM
The Haydn/Mozart/Vanhal/Ditters Quartet...standing on the street corner (left click to enlarge).

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/HaydnMozartvanhaldittersquartet.jpg)

Sarge

Brillante! :D :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 12, 2013, 09:03:10 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 12, 2013, 08:07:27 AM
Love it...his facial expression complements perfectly the hand gesture :D

Sarge

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 12, 2013, 08:12:44 AM
Yes indeed. Someone, somewhere, finally found something to match that big, bland face that Hardy stuck in there. :) You guys are good. I played around with that for a while the other day but it overcame me. Even with a gorgeous Brando portrait to start with. Ah well... :)

8)

Thanks! I got lucky with the James Dean pic and the Haydn face, they did match up quite well. One of my better ones I must say. :)
And I did see a few Brando pics I almost worked with.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 12, 2013, 09:15:47 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 12, 2013, 08:02:46 AM
The Haydn/Mozart/Vanhal/Ditters Quartet...standing on the street corner (left click to enlarge).

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/HaydnMozartvanhaldittersquartet.jpg)

Sarge

Onto Facebook that has went

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 12, 2013, 09:33:52 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 12, 2013, 08:02:46 AM
The Haydn/Mozart/Vanhal/Ditters Quartet...standing on the street corner (left click to enlarge).

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/HaydnMozartvanhaldittersquartet.jpg)

Sarge

The new Punk Band. :D Great stuff.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidRoss on May 12, 2013, 10:34:18 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 12, 2013, 08:02:46 AM
The Haydn/Mozart/Vanhal/Ditters Quartet...standing on the street corner (left click to enlarge).

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/HaydnMozartvanhaldittersquartet.jpg)

Is that Dave Wilbanks on the left? Looks as if the diet's been a big success!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on May 12, 2013, 11:08:18 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 11, 2013, 07:12:11 PM
Haydn Dean (http://gregscottmoeller.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/haydn-dean.jpg)

(http://gregscottmoeller.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/haydn-dean.jpg)

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 12, 2013, 08:02:46 AM
The Haydn/Mozart/Vanhal/Ditters Quartet...standing on the street corner (left click to enlarge).

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/HaydnMozartvanhaldittersquartet.jpg)

Sarge

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 10, 2013, 09:46:07 AM
And normally what follows is a touch-up or two from Sarge. Followed by another touch-up or two from Jens. ;)

I can't mess with perfection.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 12, 2013, 06:30:47 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 12, 2013, 08:02:46 AM
The Haydn/Mozart/Vanhal/Ditters Quartet...standing on the street corner (left click to enlarge).

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/HaydnMozartvanhaldittersquartet.jpg)

Hi Sarge - that is just amazing! NOW, what program(s) did you use to put that image together? I've been scarce on the forum for a month because Susan & I are transitioning over to Apple (I have a new MacBook Pro & just got her a new iMac - Dell is OUT for us) - SO, I need to find some Apple related imaging programs - thus, curious about what you may be using - thanks for suggestions - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 13, 2013, 03:07:57 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 12, 2013, 06:30:47 PM
Hi Sarge - that is just amazing! NOW, what program(s) did you use to put that image together?

Hey, Dave. I still use an ancient version of Photoshop (Photoshop 6) which was released in 2000. I acquired my copy in 2001. Two problems with getting a current version of PS today: it's insanely expensive now and soon Adobe is going to a subscription system (http://www.dpreview.com/news/2013/05/06/Adobe-kills-perpetual-licenses-as-creative-suite-moves-to-creative-cloud-cc) where you won't own the software but merely rent it for $30 or $50 a month.

I don't have experience with any recent graphics programs; can't recommend anything. I tried Photoshop Elements seven or eight years ago but found it didn't meet my needs. It might be much improved today.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 13, 2013, 03:39:21 AM

Well, Sarge, that Wild Quartet is a big hit; 19 of my friends on Facebook (most of them, people actually known to me ; ) have Liked your effort!

Thread Duty:

It is high time I organized the folders for the pieno sonatas properly; Gurn has armed me with a list which makes sense of the numeration . . . we shall see if the day grants to me a few minutes of peaceful Haydn organization . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 13, 2013, 03:57:29 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on May 13, 2013, 03:39:21 AM
Well, Sarge, that Wild Quartet is a big hit; 19 of my friends on Facebook (most of them, people actually known to me ; ) have Liked your effort!

Finally!...my well-earned 15 minutes of fame :D ;)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 13, 2013, 06:44:33 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 13, 2013, 03:07:57 AM
Hey, Dave. I still use an ancient version of Photoshop (Photoshop 6) which was released in 2000. I acquired my copy in 2001. Two problems with getting a current version of PS today: it's insanely expensive now and soon Adobe is going to a subscription system (http://www.dpreview.com/news/2013/05/06/Adobe-kills-perpetual-licenses-as-creative-suite-moves-to-creative-cloud-cc) where you won't own the software but merely rent it for $30 or $50 a month.

I don't have experience with any recent graphics programs; can't recommend anything. I tried Photoshop Elements seven or eight years ago but found it didn't meet my needs. It might be much improved today.

Thanks Sarge - I used Photoshop at work before retirement (of course, bought for me on a multi-license agreement) - but no way that I was going to pay for the program on my home PC.

BUT, as of last week, we've transitioned over to Apple, and I purchased a program called Pixelmator (only $15) which seems similar to Photoshop and has gotten great reviews (new version just released) - plan to start playing w/ the app this week (in anticipation of scanning in a LOT of family photos and old travel slides) - screenshot below from my laptop - has the usual wide selection of dialog boxes, showing are 'Tools', 'Layers', & 'Brushes' - seems that this should serve my needs (and have been able to place on the laptop & the iMac). Dave :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-rTqXQRv/0/M/Pixelmator%20Shot-M.png)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on May 13, 2013, 07:02:14 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 13, 2013, 06:44:33 AM
Thanks Sarge - I used Photoshop at work before retirement (of course, bought for me on a multi-license agreement) - but no way that I was going to pay for the program on my home PC.

Dave, if you want a program that's a bit more flexible and has more options that a standard photo manager/editor, but at the same time not want anything too Adobe-specific, you can use GIMP. And it costs $15 less than the Mac program too. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 13, 2013, 09:47:38 AM

Thought the Haus Mates would appreciate this.

This is the Northern Illinois University Trombone Choir with Faculty trombonist Jeremy Moeller (big dude in the middle, with a familiar last name ;)) performing an arrangement of Vollendet ist das große Werk (Achieved is the Glorious Work) from Haydn's The Creation.

http://www.youtube.com/v/GOOnAF_bNZE

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 13, 2013, 10:09:06 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 13, 2013, 09:47:38 AM
Thought the Haus Mates would appreciate this.

This is the Northern Illinois University Trombone Choir with Faculty trombonist Jeremy Moeller (big dude in the middle, with a familiar last name ;)) performing an arrangement of Vollendet ist das große Werk (Achieved is the Glorious Work) from Haydn's The Creation.

http://www.youtube.com/v/GOOnAF_bNZE

Very nice, Greg. Historically, the trombone was reserved for use in sacred music in order to double the voices because it sounds so much in the range and tenor of the human voice. You can hear the blending there very nicely, I must say. But then, I'vce always been a sucker for sackbutts. I even married one once.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 13, 2013, 10:52:25 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 13, 2013, 09:47:38 AM
Thought the Haus Mates would appreciate this.

This is the Northern Illinois University Trombone Choir with Faculty trombonist Jeremy Moeller (big dude in the middle, with a familiar last name ;) ) performing an arrangement of Vollendet ist das große Werk (Achieved is the Glorious Work) from Haydn's The Creation.

http://www.youtube.com/v/GOOnAF_bNZE

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on May 13, 2013, 11:05:19 AM

Currently listening to the Aeolians playing Op 50

It strikes me that people (in general, not referring to das Haus) people pay attention to Opp. 20 and 33, and to the later quartets (Op. 64 and up), but what might be called the "middle quartets" between seem to slip through the cracks. Which is completely unfair to the middle quartets.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 13, 2013, 11:07:21 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 13, 2013, 11:05:19 AM
Currently listening to the Aeolians playing Op 50

It strikes me that people (in general, not referring to das Haus) people pay attention to Opp. 20 and 33, and to the later quartets (Op. 64 and up), but what might be called the "middle quartets" between seem to slip through the cracks. Which is completely unfair to the middle quartets.

I don't ever leave home without Op. 54, especially no.2 in C.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 13, 2013, 11:09:53 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 13, 2013, 10:09:06 AM
Very nice, Greg. Historically, the trombone was reserved for use in sacred music in order to double the voices because it sounds so much in the range and tenor of the human voice.

Just wanted to say (without at all contesting your observation here, O Gurn, which is sound) how seldom one reads the phrase The trombone was reserved.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 13, 2013, 11:59:38 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on May 13, 2013, 11:09:53 AM
Just wanted to say (without at all contesting your observation here, O Gurn, which is sound) how seldom one reads the phrase The trombone was reserved.

Nor do trombonists want to be reserved. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 13, 2013, 12:06:03 PM

Came across these performances of Haydn's Cello Concerto No. 1, movement III. Interested to know the Haus Mates opinions on these two and perhaps which one they prefer.

http://www.youtube.com/v/ArOX-AGVMGM http://www.youtube.com/v/NBpekNr-rcI

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 13, 2013, 12:06:07 PM

Quote from: Opus106 on May 13, 2013, 07:02:14 AM
Dave, if you want a program that's a bit more flexible and has more options that a standard photo manager/editor, but at the same time not want anything too Adobe-specific, you can use GIMP. And it costs $15 less than the Mac program too. ;)

Hi Navneeth - yep, I've used GIMP occasionally in the past (when I had that Ubuntu distro on an old laptop) and was rather frustrated (despite the price advantage! :D), i.e. steep learning curve (never reached the top) for the casual user. Also, I now belong to several Mac forums and have read numerous posts in which Pixelmator is stated to much easier to use (and also probably not as feature laden) - plan to give the app a try this week - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on May 16, 2013, 03:29:34 AM

Now enjoying a gift from my girlfriend (which I picked out), anyone else have this set?

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/Apr09/Haydn_complete_concertos_8506019.jpg)

QuoteThis jolly set from Naxos unites for the first time, I believe, all of Haydn's surviving concertos. While the level of inspiration here isn't as consistently high as it is in the symphonies, string quartets or choral works, there's still plenty to enjoy and the performances show these works to the best advantage.

Listeners can be assured at the outset that the old favourites are in safe hands here. The Trumpet Concerto positively gleams in the hands of Jürgen Schuster whose lightly virtuosic playing contrasts well with the martial work of the orchestra. Likewise, the D major Cello concerto (no. 2) is graceful and refined under the bow of Maria Kliegel, the gorgeous slow movement coming across with special beauty. Lest anyone think that Haydn was only capable of conveying one emotion in his concerto writing, Kliegel then throws herself into the swinging rondo finale of No. 4. She shows us a much more vigorous side to Haydn in the C major concerto, while being just as seductive in its slow movement.

The three violin concertos are superbly played here, and each has something special to recommend it, be it the total stillness of the orchestra in the slow movement of No. 1, the contre-danse refinement of No. 2 or the busy working out of No. 3. The horn concerto No. 1 is perhaps a little less substantial and more forgettable, but it has a lovely slow movement which ranges most effectively over the horn's full range. The stand-out work of the first three discs, however, is the Double Concerto for violin and fortepiano. This, Haydn's only work in this form, is a real delight, an intimate, chamber-like piece which touches on what domestic music-making must have been like in the Esterhaza palace. Furthermore, it was in this work that I first noticed the orchestra's lack of vibrato. That, combined with the use of the fortepiano, made this a much more "period"-sounding work.

The piano concertos on disc four are more familiar fare and all sound absolutely splendid here. The D major, in particular, has an especially exciting feel to the outer movements, while the F major has a profoundly beautiful slow movement. It is especially good to have these keyboard works played on a piano rather than a harpsichord. True, Haydn is no Mozart when it comes to writing concertos, but this disc alone would be enough to convince anyone that he is capable of strokes of genius. Just listen to the profound minor key slow movement of the G major concerto (Hob 9) to get a sense of that. The keyboard concertos that are played by harpsichord and organ I found less convincing. I've never been the harpsichord's biggest fan, and I heard nothing here to change my mind. Especially in concertos, the instrument sounds too spindly and is easily subsumed into the orchestral picture. The same problem is there with the organ concertos, where there is insufficient contrast between soloist and orchestra, with too much blend in the slow movements in particular. Still, those with different tastes to me may find them charming.

The most curious disc is the last, featuring Haydn's surviving concertos for pairs of lire organizzante. This instrument seems to have been close to the hurdy-gurdy and the concertos were commissioned by King Ferdinand IV of Naples, who played the instrument with his teacher. Pairs of wind instruments take the lire organizzante's role here, and it's a bit of a shame that we couldn't have had at least one play-through with the genuine article, if one still exists. Still, the flutes, oboes and recorders fill in nicely and the concertos on this disc sound notably different to the rest of the set. These works are more like divertimenti and there is, again, a tendency for the instruments to blend into the orchestral sound. Here, however, Haydn gets over this by incorporating them from the very start of the music: no exposition repeat with the soloist elaborating on what has gone before. I found these works curious but attractive, especially the busy No. 5 and No. 1 which has a poignant, almost operatic adagio inserted into its fast finale, a lovely touch.

Every soloist is top-notch here, but the main stars are the Cologne Chamber Orchestra who have the full measure of this varied set of music. They play with martial swagger when required, as in the trumpet concerto, but refine themselves down to almost one-to-a-part when necessary, as in the Double Concerto. They play on modern instruments but with many period inflections, directed ably by Helmut Müller-Brühl, a specialist in this field.

Naxos are really spoiling us with the Haydn anniversary. This is a great set, worthy to set alongside their surveys of the symphonies, piano sonatas and string quartets. Anyone curious about this area of Haydn's work can invest with confidence.

Simon Thompson

Read more: http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/Apr09/Haydn_complete_concertos_8506019.htm#ixzz2TSCfFRuM

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on May 16, 2013, 01:27:00 PM

Quote from: George on May 16, 2013, 03:29:34 AM
Now enjoying a gift from my girlfriend (which I picked out), anyone else have this set?

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2009/Apr09/Haydn_complete_concertos_8506019.jpg)

I've had it for several years, and it's a nice compendium, although not all the performances are first class. My especial favorite from the set is the CD of violin concertos with Augustin Hadelich.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on May 16, 2013, 01:40:22 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 16, 2013, 01:27:00 PM
I've had it for several years, and it's a nice compendium, although not all the performances are first class. My especial favorite from the set is the CD of violin concertos with Augustin Hadelich.

Thanks, Jeffrey!! Would you call them close to first class? I find the first two CDs delightful. Even my girlfriend remarked this morning that she liked it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on May 16, 2013, 02:08:45 PM

Quote from: George on May 16, 2013, 01:40:22 PM
Thanks, Jeffrey!! Would you call them close to first class? I find the first two CDs delightful. Even my girlfriend remarked this morning that she liked it.

The Hadelich is first class, and the lire organizzata CD is also excellent. Kliegel has too much competition to be termed firstclass, but considered in isolation she gives a fine performance. The others vary on a piece by piece basis; I remember being least impressed by the keyboard concertos, and most impressed by the trumpet concerto.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on May 16, 2013, 02:36:08 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 16, 2013, 02:08:45 PM
The Hadelich is first class, and the lire organizzata CD is also excellent. Kliegel has too much competition to be termed firstclass, but considered in isolation she gives a fine performance. The others vary on a piece by piece basis; I remember being least impressed by the keyboard concertos, and most impressed by the trumpet concerto.

Thanks again!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 17, 2013, 04:58:26 AM

Just roundin' up strays. I think that Haydn questions are far more likely to be seen and replied to if they are all in one place. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on May 17, 2013, 05:06:47 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 17, 2013, 04:58:26 AM
Just roundin' up strays. I think that Haydn questions are far more likely to be seen and replied to if they are all in one place. :)

8)

Thanks, Papa!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 17, 2013, 05:12:14 AM

It's a big Haus.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 17, 2013, 05:13:39 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on May 13, 2013, 11:09:53 AM
Just wanted to say (without at all contesting your observation here, O Gurn, which is sound) how seldom one reads the phrase The trombone was reserved.

Yes, I see your point there Karl. Almost oxymoronic, in retrospect. :)

I was able to make an interesting inference while reading last night vis-a-vis trombones. If you will note in the scoring given for many Concerted Masses, on the list you will frequently find trombones in parentheses. I never knew exactly what it meant, I actually thought it might mean 'optional'. But I discover now that it means that the trombones play, but they don't have a written part. They play the voice line of the lower 3 voices to strengthen it. So one of these lovely consorts of sackbuts is like a baritone, tenor and alto in the choir. Nice to have a mystery solved. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 17, 2013, 05:15:34 AM

Quote from: George on May 17, 2013, 05:06:47 AM
Thanks, Papa!

No problem. This thread was so far down I missed it at the big roundup a few months ago. :)

I wish I had some input for you on your OP, George, but I don't have that box, nor any of its contents. Jeffrey is invaluable that way; he has it all! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 17, 2013, 05:31:57 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 17, 2013, 05:13:39 AM
Yes, I see your point there Karl. Almost oxymoronic, in retrospect. :)

I was able to make an interesting inference while reading last night vis-a-vis trombones. If you will note in the scoring given for many Concerted Masses, on the list you will frequently find trombones in parentheses. I never knew exactly what it meant, I actually thought it might mean 'optional'. But I discover now that it means that the trombones play, but they don't have a written part. They play the voice line of the lower 3 voices to strengthen it. So one of these lovely consorts of sackbuts is like a baritone, tenor and alto in the choir. Nice to have a mystery solved. :)

8)

Curiously, I did that as an aid to the choir for the inaugural performance of the Canticles for my Evening Service in D. Chances are, I may have gotten the idea from recollection of historic practice . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 17, 2013, 05:37:31 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on May 17, 2013, 05:31:57 AM
Curiously, I did that as an aid to the choir for the inaugural performance of the Canticles for my Evening Service in D. Chances are, I may have gotten the idea from recollection of historic practice . . . .

Something you will have learned in school then, albeit en passant?

There are a good number of conventions like that in extramusical notation, such as [Allegro] meaning 'allegro isn't written here, but it's allegro from the context and that's how we're playing it'. That's a lot to say for a small pair of square brackets, eh? Problem is, they aren't explained outside of school, and so it might well take a while for the inference to obtrude. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 17, 2013, 05:38:39 AM

I certainly did absorb a great deal, and much of it of musical use.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 17, 2013, 07:47:02 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on May 17, 2013, 05:38:39 AM
I certainly did absorb a great deal, and much of it of musical use.

Clearly so. I, OTOH, read a book once... 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 17, 2013, 10:01:52 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 17, 2013, 07:47:02 AM
Clearly so. I, OTOH, read a book once... 0:)

8)

But you still recall which book.

Don't you? ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on May 17, 2013, 10:37:40 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 17, 2013, 05:15:34 AM
No problem. This thread was so far down I missed it at the big roundup a few months ago. :)

I wish I had some input for you on your OP, George, but I don't have that box, nor any of its contents. Jeffrey is invaluable that way; he has it all! :)

8)

Jeffrey has a good deal less than you impute to him.

About the trombones--I've got a recording of Handel's Resurrezione in which the trombone is used to re-inforce the Devil's vocal line. The usage was apparently a well known convention by the first decades of the 18th century.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 17, 2013, 11:38:09 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 17, 2013, 10:37:40 AM
Jeffrey has a good deal less than you impute to him.

About the trombones--I've got a recording of Handel's Resurrezione in which the trombone is used to re-inforce the Devil's vocal line. The usage was apparently a well known convention by the first decades of the 18th century.

That is an oratorio? A sacred oratorio would have been one of the few places that you would hear a trombone outside of mass. Naxos gathered all the secular trombone works they could find a few years back and put them all on one CD! I really do like classical trombone music though, the rarities like Beethoven's Three Equali for 4 Trombones, for example. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on May 17, 2013, 08:10:56 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 17, 2013, 05:15:34 AM
No problem. This thread was so far down I missed it at the big roundup a few months ago. :)

I wish I had some input for you on your OP, George, but I don't have that box, nor any of its contents. Jeffrey is invaluable that way; he has it all! :)

8)

No worries, Gurn, I have listened to 4 of the 6 CDs and have really enjoyed them. Great sound too!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on May 18, 2013, 10:04:02 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 17, 2013, 11:38:09 AM
That is an oratorio? A sacred oratorio would have been one of the few places that you would hear a trombone outside of mass. Naxos gathered all the secular trombone works they could find a few years back and put them all on one CD! I really do like classical trombone music though, the rarities like Beethoven's Three Equali for 4 Trombones, for example. :)

8)

Having found the recording, I discovered I was not correctly remembering what the liner notes said. Marco Vitale, who conducted the recording, and wrote the liner notes, records three possible solutions to the use of a trombone in the original performances, although there's no trombone part in the score.
1) The mention of a trombone in the payroll is actually for a bassoon.
2) The trombone doubled the recitatives of Lucifer.
Vitale rejects those two proposals and puts forward his own,which he used in the recording
3) The trombone was part of the continuo group, and used when the trumpets were playing their parts. It was thus the bass part of a Baroque brass section, doubling the bass line.

The recording is Handel: La Resurrezione Contrasto Armonico and soloists, Marco Vitale cond. Brilliant Classics catalogue no. 93805

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on May 20, 2013, 10:31:05 PM

I'm looking to buy my first copy of "The Creation". Recommendations on a German, PI recording would be greatly appreciated.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2013, 04:13:53 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on May 20, 2013, 10:31:05 PM
I'm looking to buy my first copy of "The Creation". Recommendations on a German, PI recording would be greatly appreciated.

I have every PI version available, and I feel safe to say that this one is as good as any and better than many. The fact that it is readily available and doesn't require taking out a 2nd mortgage shouldn't deter you from considering it :) ;

[asin]B0007XHKZI[/asin]

Great playing, superb singing. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2013, 04:35:31 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on May 21, 2013, 04:29:53 AM
;)

I sometimes get the feeling from reading this forum that the harder it is to find a recording; the better it becomes. :)

Yes, I was lulled into that idea many years ago, and when I realized that it was just another form of snobbery, I've been fighting it ever since. This is an excellent example to prove the rule. Not that ALL disks that are cheap and available are the tops, just that all of them aren't the shits, either. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on May 21, 2013, 05:44:59 AM

A Naxos recording being top of the heap? Come now. :P

Seriously, though, I was torn between Jacobs, Weil 1 & Weil 2. On the one hand I've heard great things about the Jacobs, on the other hand the Weil (1) is roughly half the price and also supposed to be great...yet it is included in the Vivarte box which means I'd be doubling when I eventually grabbed that...and while Weil's new Creation (and London Symphonies and Seven Last Words and The Seasons...) recording certainly looks interesting it's relatively untested, at least as far as I know, and will run roughly the same as the Jacobs. This may well provide an alternative that solves all of the confusion. For now.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2013, 06:08:46 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on May 21, 2013, 05:51:42 AM
After sampling the SWR recordings of a few of the symphonies I am now listening to the Gryphon Trio recordings of the keyboard trios. Yes, they are a MI group - but these are what I consider very good performances.

[asin]B000009CY3[/asin]

I like the Gryphon's, I have their Mozart set and it is quite enjoyable. My only reservation about PI trios in general is that the keyboard tends to dominate too much. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 21, 2013, 06:44:31 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on May 21, 2013, 05:44:59 AM
A Naxos recording being top of the heap? Come now. :P

Yep. I'll agree with Gurn on this one. It's well performed and recorded. And for a nice contrast I resort to Bernstein's on Sony.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on May 21, 2013, 06:45:33 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2013, 06:08:46 AM
My only reservation about PI trios in general is that the keyboard tends to dominate too much. :)

8)

Do you mean MI trios?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 21, 2013, 06:56:34 AM

I took that as a typo, myself.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2013, 06:57:40 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on May 21, 2013, 06:45:33 AM
Do you mean MI trios?

Sorry, I have a cold.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2013, 06:58:57 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on May 21, 2013, 06:33:00 AM
I know what you are talking about - but I don't get that impression from these recordings.

No, I just mean in general. These guys are pretty good about it, although that's what drove me away from MI chamber music to start with. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on May 21, 2013, 07:00:39 AM

For the Trios, for me it's Beaux Arts all the way...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on May 21, 2013, 07:00:44 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on May 21, 2013, 06:56:34 AM
I took that as a typo, myself.

Simply making sure.... :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2013, 07:05:22 AM

Quote from: George on May 21, 2013, 07:00:39 AM
For the Trios, for me it's Beaux Arts all the way...

Never doubted you for a minute, dear fellow. BATting for the cycle, and we baseball fans call it.... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on May 21, 2013, 07:11:52 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2013, 07:05:22 AM
Never doubted you for a minute, dear fellow. BATting for the cycle, and we baseball fans call it.... :D

8)

LOL

That box set is like heaven in a box. So serene...

In fact, it was that set that helped me understand the love that you guys have for Haydn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2013, 07:31:31 AM

Quote from: George on May 21, 2013, 07:11:52 AM
LOL

That box set is like heaven in a box. So serene...

In fact, it was that set that helped me understand the love that you guys have for Haydn.

Yes, all of that and more. The finest composer in the world today.... well, yesterday, but whose counting? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2013, 07:32:49 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on May 21, 2013, 07:12:00 AM
Rangers or Astros? Or if you're old enough the Colt 45s?

I could go for the Colt 45's, I remember them well. But since most Rangers are Haydn fans, well, I can only return the favor. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 21, 2013, 09:36:34 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on May 21, 2013, 05:44:59 AM
A Naxos recording being top of the heap? Come now. :P

Geo, I wish I could add more than I'm about to but not having heard this Creation recording my input will be limited.

I wouldn't count out Spering just because of the label he's on. I only have one of his recordings - Handel's opera Imeneo on CPO - but it's of such high quality I count it as among the best Handel recordings I've heard (and I've heard many).

The other thing is, I've never been a fan of Jacobs as a conductor. Take that FWIW of course but I'd say follow Gurn's advice and go for the Spering. I just might buy it myself to supplement my Brüggen recording.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on May 21, 2013, 11:14:03 AM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on May 21, 2013, 09:36:34 AM
I wouldn't count out Spering just because of the label he's on.

Don't worry, that was a joke. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 21, 2013, 11:36:37 AM

*Whew*

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 21, 2013, 11:37:43 AM

BTW, anyone know anything about this Christie version?

[asin]B000VLR0J2[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 21, 2013, 11:39:46 AM

I must be dreaming. Just pulled the trigger on a new copy of the Boston Baroque recording of The Creation for $1.67 (plus s/h).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2013, 12:12:13 PM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on May 21, 2013, 11:37:43 AM
BTW, anyone know anything about this Christie version?

[asin]B000VLR0J2[/asin]

Somewhere above (sorry I can't be more precise) I briefly compared 10 or 11 PI versions of The Creation, of which this was one. I liked it, in comparison with its peers it more than held its own, although in the end, IIRC, it was middle of the pack. I liked Spering better. But hey, that's just me. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2013, 12:12:48 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on May 21, 2013, 11:39:46 AM
I must be dreaming. Just pulled the trigger on a new copy of the Boston Baroque recording of The Creation for $1.67 (plus s/h).

Saw that, it's been there for a couple of weeks. Pretty amazing, eh? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 21, 2013, 12:29:59 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2013, 12:12:13 PM
Somewhere above (sorry I can't be more precise) I briefly compared 10 or 11 PI versions of The Creation, of which this was one. I liked it, in comparison with its peers it more than held its own, although in the end, IIRC, it was middle of the pack. I liked Spering better. But hey, that's just me. :)

8)

Thanks, Gurn. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2013, 12:51:59 PM

Here's a link to an essay about the work itself;

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg684400.html#msg684400

And this to a very small comparative listening adventure;

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg687882.html#msg687882

I don't know, maybe something useful there.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on May 21, 2013, 02:27:05 PM

So, Gurn, heard this one?

[asin]B0087YSODQ[/asin]

Weil's been doing a whole run of new stuff with that orchestra. London Symphonies, The Creation, The Seasons, Seven Last Words...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2013, 03:35:41 PM

Quote from: Geo Dude on May 21, 2013, 02:27:05 PM
So, Gurn, heard this one?

[asin]B0087YSODQ[/asin]

Weil's been doing a whole run of new stuff with that orchestra. London Symphonies, The Creation, The Seasons, Seven Last Words...

No, not a single one of those disks in that series. Not to say I won't though. They look interesting. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 21, 2013, 03:39:23 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2013, 12:12:48 PM
Saw that, it's been there for a couple of weeks. Pretty amazing, eh? :)

8)

Puts me in mind of some lovely dialogue in Wodehouse:

"Good heavens, Jeeves; is there anything you don't know?"

"I could not say, sir." :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2013, 03:46:16 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on May 21, 2013, 03:39:23 PM
Puts me in mind of some lovely dialogue in Wodehouse:

"Good heavens, Jeeves; is there anything you don't know?"

"I could not say, sir." :)

Well, I had taken advantage of it too. We'll see if this 'amazing new' vendor is actually the Mozart Mafia or not. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on May 22, 2013, 01:25:26 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on May 21, 2013, 04:09:19 PM
Judging for sound, the Weil is fantastic. The orchestra sounds simply amazing. I consider it better than Spering, Kuijken, Pearlman, McCreesh and only Gardiner, Jacobs and Hengelbrock are in the same league. But judging on all other elements, with so many variables, i.e. singers, tempos, interpretation, the field of PI Die Schopfung recordings is very close.

Weil achieves a beautiful clarity and balance among the instruments; the entire sound is one of immediacy and presence, whereas others sound blurry and distant. Haydn's orchestration in the "Introduction" is extraordinarily unique for the period and Weil, as well as Hengelbrock, Gardiner and Jacobs exploit the writing exceedingly well. But I might give the edge to Weil.

My two cents.

:)

Thank you for your thoughts. One of these days someone is going to need to do a face off between Weil 1 and Weil 2. As far as I'm concerned everything the man touches turns to gold, so I'm sure they're both great, but that new series of stuff is very interesting indeed.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on May 23, 2013, 12:05:01 PM

So the SWR radio group has just started their own record label of archival recordings, SWRmusic, and among the first batch of releases is a massive swathe of Haydn symphonies from the SWR Orchestra, Baden-Baden und Freiburg, under Ernest Bour (who died in 2001). I don't know if they're releasing physical CDs, but there are downloads of 9 discs so far (for example (http://www.classicsonline.com/catalogue/product.aspx?pid=1846945)).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 23, 2013, 01:37:49 PM

Quote from: Brian on May 23, 2013, 12:05:01 PM
So the SWR radio group has just started their own record label of archival recordings, SWRmusic, and among the first batch of releases is a massive swathe of Haydn symphonies from the SWR Orchestra, Baden-Baden und Freiburg, under Ernest Bour (who died in 2001). I don't know if they're releasing physical CDs, but there are downloads of 9 discs so far (for example (http://www.classicsonline.com/catalogue/product.aspx?pid=1846945)).

Rather on the pricey side, but looking interesting. I have some Bour doing Mozart that is quite competent. Thanks for the tip, Brian.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on May 31, 2013, 08:20:48 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2011, 12:30:40 PM
Part 15

1766

A watershed year for Haydn, and coincidentally, for us also. To start with, his immediate superior, Gregor Werner, passed away. Although Haydn genuinely respected him (he really was a great composer of church music and stile antico), he also was holding Haydn back. True, Haydn had continually built up the orchestra in both quantity and quality, and drilled them constantly until they became one of the finest private orchestras in Europe. But Werner wasn't satisfied, as we saw in 1765 when he wrote the letter to the Prince about Haydn's failure to maintain any discipline, and also his failure to compose sufficient music (!!).

The side benefit for us, when we are looking back to those years, is that Haydn sat down and wrote a list (the Entwurf-Katalog). He wrote it in response to the criticism that "he is not applying himself diligently to composition", but the benefit derives to us. It is a 2-edged sword though, since on the one hand it gives by telling us what he remembers having written up until then. On the other hand, it takes away because it doesn't say "in 1758 I wrote this...", and this has led to the general statement seen so often in these music chronologies "composed before 1766".

However, the biggest change of all for everyone who was a part of the Prince's household is that in 1766 Esterhazy Palace was opened for business! Eisenstadt was, from this point on, a place to spend the winter. Gone with it was the easy access to Vienna that Haydn had enjoyed (not as though he got the chance to take advantage of it very often!). The Prince was absolutely enamored of Esterhazy, and why not? It was one of the most beautiful and fully featured edifices ever constructed, even putting Versailles in the shade. For Haydn, life would never be the same, for better or for worse.

The music of 1766

Hob 01_028 Symphony in A
Academy of Ancient Music / Hogwood
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HogwoodVol04cover.jpg)

Hob 10_11 Duet in D for 2 Barytons

Hob 11_013 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_014 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_015 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_016 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_017 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_018 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_019 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_020 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_021 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_022 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1
Hob 11_024 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 1

Hob 11_025 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_026 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_027 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_028 Trio in D for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_029 Trio in A for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2
Hob 11_030 Trio in G for Baryton, Viola & Cello Book 2

Hob 12_03 & 5 Duet in D for 2 Barytons

Hob 12_19 12 Cassations for 2 Barytons & Violone
Esterhazy Ensemble
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Completebarytontrioscover.jpg)

Hob 14_01 Divertimento in Eb for 2 Horns, 1 Violin, Cembalo & Baßo
Haydn Sinfonietta Wien / Huss
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HussHaydnEarlyDivertimenticover.jpg)

Hob 16_45 Sonata #29 in Eb for Keyboard
Christine Schornsheim
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardSchornsheimHaydn.jpg)

Hob 18_03 Concerto in F for Keyboard
Musica Antiqua Amsterdam / Koopman
Hob 18_03 Concerto in F for Keyboard
Concerto Copenhagen / Mortensen Brautigam
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKoopmancover.jpg) (http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Brautigamconcertoscover.jpg)

Hob 28_02 Opera buffa in 2 Acts "La Cantarina"
Palmer Chamber Orchestra / Palmer with Harris / Garrison / Fortunato / Guyer
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnCantarinacover.jpg)

OK, so what do we have here, Herr Haydn? 1 symphony? Yes, well due to the catalog mentioned above, there were originally 20 or so assigned to 1766. Once they were all tracked down, the number shrank substantially. It is a nice one though, glad to have it. Not frequently recorded as it isn't part of any trend, just a very nice symphony. This Hogwood recording is, in fact, the only PI one that I have. Of course, there are a few MI ones, I have Fischer for example.

There are a few highlights to point out in the baryton works too. He was still writing things other than trios at that time. Some of them are especially interesting. There are several duets for 2 barytons, probably played by the Prince and Weigl. Here is another fine opportunity to ponder the mystery that was Hoboken. Here we find Hob 10_11, a duet in D major for 2 Barytons. Section 10 ( X ) is indicated to be for "Barytons with various instruments". Section 12 (XII), OTOH, is for Baryton Duets. And we saw some in 1764 and again this year. How this stray wondered off the ranch I can't figure out. :-\

That said, a nice thing that I like here is Hob 12_19 12 Cassations for 2 Barytons & Violone. They are in a variety of available keys, and can be played from beginning to end as one piece. The violone, for those unfamiliar with the term, was the functional equivalent of a double bass. It is actually a very large bass viol, thus it will have a flat back and usually have frets and anywhere from 4-6 strings. Where it fails in the volume competition with the actual bass (which is a member of the violin family) it makes up in having a beautiful mellow tone that blends in well in chamber ensembles. Haydn used them a lot, so most of the time, especially in the early works, when you see 'Baßo' (basso), he means Violone. :)

Here also we find the only member of Hob 14 (XIV) that varies from what has been the standard scoring (2 violins, cembalo & Baßo), the #1 Divertimento in Eb for 2 Horns, 1 Violin, Cembalo & Baßo. A very nice little piece, and this being the only recording of it that I have found so far (PI or otherwise). Bless you, St Manfred of Huss.... :D

I put 2 versions of Hob 18_03 because it was originally composed for a harpsichord (cembalo), but even in very early times, by the 1770's, it, along with 18_04 were played on the fortepiano in Vienna and elsewhere. No harm in having both versions here. Koopman's is a peach, and exceptional in being one of the few actually performed on the correct instrument. Brautigam's is precisely what we have come to expect from him, wonderful power, and with great accompaniment from the Copenhageners.

And finally, another opera. "La Cantarina" (The Diva or The Songstress). Well, not really an opera in the strict sense, but an intermezzo. As such, it lacks an overture, but Palmer has chosen here to use Symphony #1, a perfect (and likely authentic) choice for this work. It is about an old man who is a music teacher and a young lady who is his student (aren't they all?). A friend pretends to be her mother and convince the teacher to marry her (and give her all his money, of course). Hilarity ensues. There are 4 arias and 2 quartets (one at the end of each act). Most fortunately, this is a good performance. It would be a really suck situation if it wasn't, because there aren't any others. ::)

Delighted to hear what y'all think of any of this music. The Stürm und Dräng is nearly upon us, but let's enjoy what we have right now. Some very nice stuff here. :)

8)

One piece which I think comes from 1766 is the keyboard sonata in G Hob xvi/6, no. 13, which I think is astonishingly good. I only know it through Yuko Wataya's CD.

So what is it, style-wise? Stürm und Drang, Empfindsammer, Galant, none or all of these things?

Maybe there are other interesting recordings. If so, please say :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 31, 2013, 10:06:04 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on May 31, 2013, 08:20:48 AM
One piece which I think comes from 1766 is the keyboard sonata in G Hob xvi/6, no. 13, which I think is astonishingly good. I only know it through Yuko Wataya's CD.

So what is it, style-wise? Stürm und Drang, Empfindsammer, Galant, none or all of these things?

Maybe there are other interesting recordings. If so, please say :)

The problem with dating Haydn's early works is twofold; he usually didn't date his autographs (which frequently no longer exist), and when he wrote his first Entwürf Katalog, his concern wasn't so much for dating things as it was for merely verifying their existence with a little description plus an incipit. As a result, many items that appear there first, such as this one in question, are given the default dating of the appearance of the catalog; i.e. - 1765-66. However, since then it has been determined (without my reference books I can't be more specific about how this one was done) that the actual date of composition was ~1760. Thus you should find some possibly more useful information in that year's essay (although I haven't checked to be sure).

I will say that Haydn's output, especially his earlier works, tend to fall closer to galant than to most other sub-genres, however, in toto I would say that he tends to his own style and resists pigeonholing far more than any of his contemporaries. Possibly the seeds of his greatness lie there, eh? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on May 31, 2013, 12:03:30 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 31, 2013, 10:06:04 AM
The problem with dating Haydn's early works is twofold; he usually didn't date his autographs (which frequently no longer exist), and when he wrote his first Entwürf Katalog, his concern wasn't so much for dating things as it was for merely verifying their existence with a little description plus an incipit. As a result, many items that appear there first, such as this one in question, are given the default dating of the appearance of the catalog; i.e. - 1765-66. However, since then it has been determined (without my reference books I can't be more specific about how this one was done) that the actual date of composition was ~1760. Thus you should find some possibly more useful information in that year's essay (although I haven't checked to be sure).

I will say that Haydn's output, especially his earlier works, tend to fall closer to galant than to most other sub-genres, however, in toto I would say that he tends to his own style and resists pigeonholing far more than any of his contemporaries. Possibly the seeds of his greatness lie there, eh? :)

8)

I've got the keyboard trios and other keyboard sonatas with me from your list for 1760. Just listenng fairly informally, to me the G major sonata seems way more inspired.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 31, 2013, 12:35:02 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on May 31, 2013, 12:03:30 PM
I've got the keyboard trios and other keyboard sonatas with me from your list for 1760. Just listenng fairly informally, to me the G major sonata seems way more inspired.

Well, he seemed to "advance" by fits and starts, although that's a deceiving way to look at it. It isn't like there is an evolution of quality, the quality is always there. Take for example the early string divertimento quartets. They weren't lesser quality because of his age, they were simply a different style. Sometimes the musical ideas are finer, which I think is reflected in your Hob 16:13 reaction, but the quality of the writing is always good. Any time I can quash the idea of "evolving towards Classicism", I have to take advantage. Not like you were going there, of course. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 31, 2013, 01:09:54 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on May 31, 2013, 12:45:11 PM
When I read these sentences it made think that from the vantage point of the 21st century, and after well over a century of "The Big Tune" from everything from Chopin to the current Pop songs, I think it is natural for us to pick up our ears at a nice melody. But, for Haydn, his themes were the raw material for development and may not exhibit the same kind of melodic arc, or range. Still, what he did with them was masterful throughout his career.

Yes, that's on the lines of what I am thinking. It is a reaction, I guess, to the argument that I frequently see in the Haydn literature that he and Mozart were just piddling along, striving towards a Classical ideal as though they knew it was there and were trying to get there. Of course, it goes without saying that the ideal was only realized in hindsight. This is not to say that Haydn didn't get better with age, but that isn't evolution, per se, it's just development. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on May 31, 2013, 03:19:56 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 31, 2013, 12:35:02 PM
[...] Take for example the early string divertimento quartets. They weren't lesser quality because of his age, they were simply a different style[...]

Yes, the "evolutionism" in art or/and considering a single human life, it's a quite weird idea.

BTW, some days ago I posted my pleasure with this disc, principally of lute arrangements of divertimentos, hidden inside the big Brilliant Classics box set.

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on May 25, 2013, 07:27:09 PM
Haydn Edition - Works for Lute and strings [CD 132]

(http://vol3.music-bazaar.com/album-images/vol3/389/389683/2223691-big/CD-132-Cassations-Quartetto-Sonata-A-3-cover.jpg)

Hidden among the other content of the big Haydn box set, this disc is a true jewel. It's truth that almost all its content is composed of arrangements for lute of cassations or quartetti (some times called "string quartets") and, AFAIK, just the Sonata a 3 in F Hob. IV:F2 was originally written for lute. But this hasn't importance at all because this disc is pure Haydn in spirit and it's masterly played by Jakob Lindberg and his partners.

BTW, this recording was originally a Bis production:

[asin]B000027EOM[/asin]

Apparently, it also knew a release on the Musical Heritage Society.

Warmly recommended. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 31, 2013, 03:40:29 PM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on May 31, 2013, 03:19:56 PM
Yes, the "evolutionism" in art or/and considering a single human life, it's a quite weird idea.

BTW, some days ago I posted my pleasure with this disc, principally of lute arrangements of divertimentos, hidden inside the big Brilliant Classics box set.

Hi, Gordo!

Yes, I have both of those disks (well, the Brilliant, of course, but the BIS too). As arrangements they are, as you say, very interesting. Given that composers didn't have nearly the rabid determination to have the "right" instrument play their works back then, the lute is very suitable for these and I thought sounded very nice too.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 03, 2013, 08:37:10 AM

Well, I am not prepared yet to comment with any actual intelligence, but my first listens to the Boston Baroque account of Die Schöpfung (I don't call it odd of Marty Pearlman to elect to sing it in German, only the notes trying to make the case that es muß sein I find a bit dubious) have been unalloyed pleasure. Sorry I 'missed' the centenary, but, dadfrazzanabit, I was on vacation.

I am guessing that, bottom line, he decided to sing the German because, well, Boston has the Handel and Haydn Society who (I should think) make a practice of singing it in English.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 03, 2013, 09:45:35 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 03, 2013, 08:37:10 AM
Well, I am not prepared yet to comment with any actual intelligence, but my first listens to the Boston Baroque account of Die Schöpfung (I don't call it odd of Marty Pearlman to elect to sing it in German, only the notes trying to make the case that es muß sein I find a bit dubious) have been unalloyed pleasure. Sorry I 'missed' the centenary, but, dadfrazzanabit, I was on vacation.

I am guessing that, bottom line, he decided to sing the German because, well, Boston has the Handel and Haydn Society who (I should think) make a practice of singing it in English.

Ah, I've been waiting for you to post on this, Karl. I got this last week and listened over weekend also. I must say, the singing on it really pleased my ears, and the playing was quite fine too. I'm not sure that I was/wasn't familiar with the soloists, but I should like to be. :)

Martin's arguments for using German aren't specious, the one, solid and irrefutable fact is that the music was composed on and about the German text, and thus falls more easily to the ear that way. Haydn could (and did) want the English to be published simultaneously, and desire authenticity for both versions, but the fact remains, he composed from the German first, and there is no way to avoid the music following the textual accents and all.

In order to sound so good, McCreesh had to rewrite a fair amount of the English text.

In any case, I liked it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 03, 2013, 09:49:13 AM

Groovy.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 03, 2013, 10:19:00 AM

Well, so now I wonder if maybe the H&H sing it auf deutsch.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 03, 2013, 10:23:11 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 03, 2013, 10:19:00 AM
Well, so now I wonder if maybe the H&H sing it auf deutsch.

Don't know, probably not though. Usually in English speaking countries it is done in English. I think that nowadays the rather stilted language involved is considered rather more endearing than insulting. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 04, 2013, 04:57:09 AM

Well, and as the notes do record:

Quote from: Marty Pearlman. . . the writing is often awkward and stilted, where it is not borrowing directly from Milton or the bible [sic]. This was already recognized and criticized by British listeners and critics during Haydn's lifetime. One publisher wrote, 'It is lamentable to see such divine music joined with such miserable broken English ...' Today, with audiences used to hearing the works of Bach, Mozart and others in their original languages, it seems preferable to present this oratorio in its stronger, original German text.

Gosh, did he really cast the bible in lower case? I mean, a bible, maybe, but here it strikes me as bad tone and tendentious.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 04, 2013, 05:25:38 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 04, 2013, 04:57:09 AM
Well, and as the notes do record:

Gosh, did he really cast the bible in lower case? I mean, a bible, maybe, but here it strikes me as bad tone and tendentious.

I don't know if he meant it that way, but I took it that way, not least because I do the same thing.... 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 04, 2013, 05:38:10 AM

I find that I now have . . . five recordings of Die Schöpfung . . . so for fun and all, I'm listening to Die Himmel erzählen die Ehre Gottes from each . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 04, 2013, 05:59:03 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 04, 2013, 05:38:10 AM
I find that I now have . . . five recordings of Die Schöpfung . . . so for fun and all, I'm listening to Die Himmel erzählen die Ehre Gottes from each . . . .

Yes, that's the only way I was able to do anything comparative was to isolate 5 or 6 pieces and compare just those. Too hard to intimately compare 12 versions of an oratorio that size without becoming semi-suicidal. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 04, 2013, 06:16:26 AM

Gurn, as ever, you have shown us the way : )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 04, 2013, 06:40:34 AM

Quick back-of-the-envelope notes:

Like 'em all. Lenny in both cases has something of a "salon-ish" approach to the music, and some of his singers almost open the spitcocks overmuch, but . . . tastefully done, and never lacking energy.

Very pleased with our local boys; if pressed to select a favorite, I'd say the Boston Baroque tied with the McCreesh.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 04, 2013, 06:57:07 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 04, 2013, 06:40:34 AM
Quick back-of-the-envelope notes:

Like 'em all. Lenny in both cases has something of a "salon-ish" approach to the music, and some of his singers almost open the spitcocks overmuch, but . . . tastefully done, and never lacking energy.

Very pleased with our local boys; if pressed to select a favorite, I'd say the Boston Baroque tied with the McCreesh.

Due to the quality of the singing on the BB performance, I would say that as a German/English pair, you could do way worse than that! Plus having the hometown favorites as a bonus. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 04, 2013, 07:00:32 AM

Taking the same tour with Holde Gattin, dir zur Seite . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on June 04, 2013, 08:02:00 AM

Vollendet ist das große Werk!

Discuss.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 04, 2013, 08:18:12 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on June 04, 2013, 08:02:00 AM
Vollendet ist das große Werk!

Discuss.

Finished is the Glorious Work! Considered by many to be the high point of the work. Hard to argue. Somewhere or other, I read that a lot of time in Britain they would end it there (after that little Gloria), as though there was no other reason to carry on after that. Maybe they were right, not being people people. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 04, 2013, 09:23:59 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on June 04, 2013, 08:02:00 AM
Vollendet ist das große Werk!

Discuss.

You're currently listening to something else . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on June 04, 2013, 10:00:34 AM

The interspersal of solo bits between phases of the chorus is particularly attractive to me. Haven't heard many versions. The one between my ears is Karajan's.

Karl! Remember Edith asking Archie, "Do you thing I'm something special?", to which Archie replies, "Edith, you're something... else." That's what I'm listening to. :)

I think Cannonball Adderley had an album called that too. Ooops, off-topic!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 04, 2013, 10:02:43 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on June 04, 2013, 10:00:34 AM
The interspersal of solo bits between phases of the chorus is particularly attractive to me. Haven't heard many versions. The one between my ears is Karajan's.

Karl! Remember Edith asking Archie, "Do you thing I'm something special?", to which Archie replies, "Edith, you're something... else." That's what I'm listening to. :)

I think Cannonball Adderley had an album called that too. Ooops, off-topic!

Actually, I think he was a Haydn descendant.... Haydn's nickname was actually 'Musketball', so the legend clearly grew.... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on June 04, 2013, 10:20:08 AM

Greetings, Gurn (formerly Gurnatron) Blanston!

Proof of purchase: my last Joseph "Musketball" Haydn listens were last week, opp. 71 and 74, Lindsays.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 04, 2013, 10:26:21 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on June 04, 2013, 10:20:08 AM
Greetings, Gurn (formerly Gurnatron) Blanston!

Proof of purchase: my last Joseph "Musketball" Haydn listens were last week, opp. 71 and 74, Lindsays.

Back at'cha, Chas-man. Hope you enjoyed those quartets, I know I do. Long time gone, nice to see you back. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on June 06, 2013, 03:49:34 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 12, 2013, 08:02:46 AM
The Haydn/Mozart/Vanhal/Ditters Quartet...standing on the street corner (left click to enlarge).

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/HaydnMozartvanhaldittersquartet.jpg)

Sarge

The Venue:

(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa35/BillandLinda/cb_zps7b91d30e.jpg) (http://s199.photobucket.com/user/BillandLinda/media/cb_zps7b91d30e.jpg.html)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 06, 2013, 04:01:54 PM

Quote from: Bogey on June 06, 2013, 03:49:34 PM
The Venue:

(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa35/BillandLinda/cb_zps7b91d30e.jpg) (http://s199.photobucket.com/user/BillandLinda/media/cb_zps7b91d30e.jpg.html)

:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on June 17, 2013, 05:58:09 PM

Any recommendations for late masses to complement the Weil set?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 17, 2013, 06:18:17 PM

Quote from: Geo Dude on June 17, 2013, 05:58:09 PM
Any recommendations for late masses to complement the Weil set?

Lots of possibilities there, Geo. The Weil set strikes just the right tone for size of orchestra (they were premiered in a small chapel in Eisenstadt, not Winchester Cathedral!!), so almost anything else sounds larger. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing by any means, it all depends on what you like and expect. :)

This is an especially good choice;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHarnoncourtMassescover.jpg)

especially having the best Paukenmesse (Hob 9) and a great Nelson Mass (Hob 11). However, it does only have 4 of the 6 late masses, so if you are looking for all 6, you will still have to find a Theresienmesse and a Heiligmesse. Which is no problem, of course.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnGardinerHeiligPaukenmassescover_zpsf4ef5024.jpg)

I like Gardiner's Heiligmesse (Hob 10).

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnTheresienmessePinnockcover_zpse53b7f0d.jpg)

And Pinnock's Theresienmesse is one of his finer efforts.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/51Yh1Av-J4L.jpg)

That said, an ideal complement, and far easier to obtain and more musically 'loaded up', is this high recommendation;

My opinion, of course. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 18, 2013, 03:37:35 AM

A different angle on complement, if a somewhat 'bigger-band' (but a nice level of energy, by these ears) account:

[asin]B001TKK39S[/asin]

My natural inclination to leaner Haydn notwithstanding, I dig this box a lot. Here, Lenny in NY serves up the Missa in tempore belli, Missa in angustiis, Harmoniemesse & Theresienmesse.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on June 18, 2013, 06:29:58 PM

Amens to both Harnoncourt and Naxos.

And this landed today (as reported in Purchases Today thread)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/517BCL40zqL._SY300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on June 18, 2013, 07:00:55 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 17, 2013, 06:18:17 PM
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/51Yh1Av-J4L.jpg)

That said, an ideal complement, and far easier to obtain and more musically 'loaded up', is this high recommendation;

My opinion, of course. :)

8)

Yes, that Naxos set is excellent, IMO at the same level of Weil. I particularly like the lovely white voices of the sopranos involved in this project. Of course, the instrumental part is fantastic too.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on June 18, 2013, 07:06:56 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on June 18, 2013, 06:32:15 PM
You are the third person I've noticed listening to that set. Wassup? For sure it is excellent, but was it on sale recently?

Yes, some days ago Navneeth posted this alert:

Quote from: Opus106 on June 07, 2013, 11:40:38 PM
Haydn, J. - Hogwood - The Symphonies £34 (ex. VAT)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B009LNI0T0/?tag=goodmusicguideco-21

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on June 18, 2013, 07:12:32 PM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on June 18, 2013, 07:06:56 PM
Yes, some days ago Navneeth posted this alert:

:)

Going by a post in the SuperDuperCheapBargains thread, it's still available at that price, if you want in on that piece of action.

And just to be clear, it merely arrived today in my mailbox. It will be a bit before it actually gets listened to. :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on June 18, 2013, 07:17:44 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 18, 2013, 07:12:32 PM
Going by a post in the SuperDuperCheapBargains thread, it's still available at that price, if you want in on that piece of action.

And just to be clear, it merely arrived today in my mailbox. It will be a bit before it actually gets listened to. :P

Yes, it will be a long road.

I'm curious: Does it include a big booklet? I ask because the original liner notes are fantastic. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on June 18, 2013, 07:24:36 PM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on June 18, 2013, 07:17:44 PM
Yes, it will be a long road.

I'm curious: Does it include a big booklet? I ask because the original liner notes are fantastic. :)

A very thin booklet, with track listings and a four page essay I have yet to read, in English and Italian (the essay was originally written in Italian). This is in contrast to the Hogwood/AAM Mozart set, which had copious liner notes, but everything was in Italian only.

This iteration has a copyright date of 2012, with the copyright holder being given as Universal's Italian subsidiary. My Ozawa Mahler box had a similar origin, so perhaps Universal has something systematic in the way of re-issues going on through this pipeline.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on June 18, 2013, 07:38:57 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 18, 2013, 07:24:36 PM
A very thin booklet, with track listings and a four page essay I have yet to read, in English and Italian (the essay was originally written in Italian). This is in contrast to the Hogwood/AAM Mozart set, which had copious liner notes, but everything was in Italian only.

This iteration has a copyright date of 2012, with the copyright holder being given as Universal's Italian subsidiary. My Ozawa Mahler box had a similar origin, so perhaps Universal has something systematic in the way of re-issues going on through this pipeline.

Thanks, Jeffrey.

The documentation in these Italian realeases is a bit unpredictable.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 19, 2013, 04:40:56 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on June 19, 2013, 02:59:23 AM
I already have it; but am glad others have bought it since it is such a good set of the symphonies.

:)

Completely agree; And the price = what I paid for 2 of the 10 boxes of the original, which is what I have, is staggeringly good. Delighted that so many have taken advantage of the opportunity. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 19, 2013, 04:44:26 AM

A little typically, I have as yet made limited progress in listening to the riches of that box, but what I have heard thus far is superb.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 19, 2013, 05:24:06 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 19, 2013, 04:44:26 AM
A little typically, I have as yet made limited progress in listening to the riches of that box, but what I have heard thus far is superb.

You need to focus, Karl, focus.... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 19, 2013, 05:26:38 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on June 18, 2013, 07:00:55 PM
Yes, that Naxos set is excellent, IMO at the same level of Weil. I particularly like the lovely white voices of the sopranos involved in this project. Of course, the instrumental part is fantastic too.

Yes, truly is superb. I think that unless someone is just really wanting to have all the masses recordings ever made on PI (and what fool would want that? ::) ) then this is the way to go, along with a single here and there. And Weil. And Harnoncourt, of course. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 19, 2013, 05:39:21 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 19, 2013, 05:24:06 AM
You need to focus, Karl, focus.... :D

8)

Ain't it da trufe!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on June 19, 2013, 05:54:16 AM

I forgot about that Naxos release. Good thing I was reminded, too, because it looks like one to get and the price is reasonable. I mean sure, there's all that fluff* (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeB_tkjXCwA) in there along with the final six masses, but I think I can handle it. 8)

I also got that set of Haydn symphonies in. I was pretty happy to see it so quickly, I'm always concerned about stuff getting lost on the way across the pond.

*Sorry, I couldn't find that clip in English.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 19, 2013, 05:56:29 AM

Help with my confusion, please?

[asin]B001LPNVDG[/asin]

I see the cover advertises Piano Chamber Music, but Amazon.com and All Music have the track listings that only display keyboard concertos. Is this an error on the websites?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 19, 2013, 06:14:38 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 19, 2013, 05:56:29 AM
Help with my confusion, please?

[asin]B001LPNVDG[/asin]

I see the cover advertises Piano Chamber Music, but Amazon.com and All Music have the track listings that only display keyboard concertos. Is this an error on the websites?

Oh, it couldn't be more straightforward, Greg! ::) (OK, I made that part up)

The primary contents of that box appear to be Hoboken 14. In the odd way that things got named back then, these were called either "concertinos" or "divertimentos", although only the most seasoned of musicologists could tell you why they don't have the same name (which could be divertimento, given Haydn's preferences back then). They've also added in (apparently) the keyboard trio that also got published as a violin sonata (Hob 15:32 / 15a:32), and the one work in Hob 14 that also includes a horn along with the keyboard and strings.

I have seen these works called 'the first piano quartets', but really, that is so misleading that someone should get smacked over it. They are very fine divertimentos dating from ~1760, and I would expect this disk (which I have never seen before) to be a nicely entertaining addition to your collection.

Essentially the same music is also available on these sets;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHob14cover.jpg)

or

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKoopmancover.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 19, 2013, 08:14:24 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 19, 2013, 06:14:38 AM
Oh, it couldn't be more straightforward, Greg! ::) (OK, I made that part up)

The primary contents of that box appear to be Hoboken 14. In the odd way that things got named back then, these were called either "concertinos" or "divertimentos", although only the most seasoned of musicologists could tell you why they don't have the same name (which could be divertimento, given Haydn's preferences back then). They've also added in (apparently) the keyboard trio that also got published as a violin sonata (Hob 15:32 / 15a:32), and the one work in Hob 14 that also includes a horn along with the keyboard and strings.

I have seen these works called 'the first piano quartets', but really, that is so misleading that someone should get smacked over it. They are very fine divertimentos dating from ~1760, and I would expect this disk (which I have never seen before) to be a nicely entertaining addition to your collection.

Essentially the same music is also available on these sets;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHob14cover.jpg)

or

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKoopmancover.jpg)

8)

Much appreciated, Gurn. Makes sense (just smacked myself :-[ ). Here's a sample of the track listing I've seen on Amazon.com...

1. Keyboard Concerto in C major, H. 14/4: Allegro
2. Keyboard Concerto in C major, H. 14/4: Menuet
3. Keyboard Concerto in C major, H. 14/4: Finale (Allegro)
4. Keyboard Concerto in C major, H. 14/11: Moderato
5. Keyboard Concerto in C major, H. 14/11: Adagio
6. Keyboard Concerto in C major, H. 14/11: Allegro
7. Keyboard Concerto in C major, H. 14/8: Allegro moderato
8. Keyboard Concerto in C major, H. 14/8: Menuet
9. Keyboard Concerto in C major, H. 14/8: Finale - Scherzo
10. Keyboard Concerto in G major, H. 14/13: Allegro moderato

...but I now see the H. 14..
And thanks for the other recs. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 19, 2013, 08:19:18 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 19, 2013, 08:14:24 AM
Much appreciated, Gurn. Makes sense (just smacked myself :-[ ). Here's a sample of the track listing I've seen on Amazon.com...

1. Keyboard Concerto in C major, H. 14/4: Allegro
2. Keyboard Concerto in C major, H. 14/4: Menuet
3. Keyboard Concerto in C major, H. 14/4: Finale (Allegro)
4. Keyboard Concerto in C major, H. 14/11: Moderato
5. Keyboard Concerto in C major, H. 14/11: Adagio
6. Keyboard Concerto in C major, H. 14/11: Allegro
7. Keyboard Concerto in C major, H. 14/8: Allegro moderato
8. Keyboard Concerto in C major, H. 14/8: Menuet
9. Keyboard Concerto in C major, H. 14/8: Finale - Scherzo
10. Keyboard Concerto in G major, H. 14/13: Allegro moderato

...but I know see the H. 14..
And thanks for the other recs. :)

Always my pleasure, Greg.

Interesting to see them calling these 'concerto'. Even the much more neutral 'concertino' is a bit of a stretch. 'Keyboard Divertimento a quattro' would be ideal if it wasn't so late in the name game. Nonetheless, it is nicely entertaining after dinner music.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on June 19, 2013, 12:56:12 PM

Quote from: Geo Dude on June 19, 2013, 05:54:16 AM
I forgot about that Naxos release. Good thing I was reminded, too, because it looks like one to get and the price is reasonable. I mean sure, there's all that fluff* (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeB_tkjXCwA) in there along with the final six masses, but I think I can handle it. 8)

I also got that set of Haydn symphonies in. I was pretty happy to see it so quickly, I'm always concerned about stuff getting lost on the way across the pond.

*Sorry, I couldn't find that clip in English.

The Haydn concerto box on Naxos is sweet too!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on June 19, 2013, 01:40:45 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 19, 2013, 05:26:38 AM
Yes, truly is superb. I think that unless someone is just really wanting to have all the masses recordings ever made on PI (and what fool would want that? ::) ) then this is the way to go, along with a single here and there. And Weil. And Harnoncourt, of course. 0:)

8)

I don't like very much Harnoncourt in Haydn's sacred music. I feel his interpretations a bit too much on the dramatic/grandiloquent side. But it's just my opinion.

My third favorite conductor in this repertoire is Simon Preston and his chorus of children. Unfortunately he didn't record extensively this music. :(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 19, 2013, 03:54:18 PM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on June 19, 2013, 01:40:45 PM
I don't like very much Harnoncourt in Haydn's sacred music. I feel his interpretations a bit too much on the dramatic/grandiloquent side. But it's just my opinion.

My third favorite conductor in this repertoire is Simon Preston and his chorus of children. Unfortunately he didn't record extensively this music. :(

True, but if you are looking for complementary styles, and you interpret that to mean 'contrasting', then I like Harnoncourt better than Gardiner, for example. :)

Yes, this is a very nice recording, and I'm with you; why didn't they do more? :-\

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnAAMHob22_145amp6_zpsa4cc420a.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on June 19, 2013, 11:39:33 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 19, 2013, 06:14:38 AM
Oh, it couldn't be more straightforward, Greg! ::) (OK, I made that part up)

The primary contents of that box appear to be Hoboken 14. In the odd way that things got named back then, these were called either "concertinos" or "divertimentos", although only the most seasoned of musicologists could tell you why they don't have the same name (which could be divertimento, given Haydn's preferences back then). They've also added in (apparently) the keyboard trio that also got published as a violin sonata (Hob 15:32 / 15a:32), and the one work in Hob 14 that also includes a horn along with the keyboard and strings.

I have seen these works called 'the first piano quartets', but really, that is so misleading that someone should get smacked over it. They are very fine divertimentos dating from ~1760, and I would expect this disk (which I have never seen before) to be a nicely entertaining addition to your collection.

They are good discs. I have them - very well played. And you are correct that it is mostly Hob XIV. Everything is labeled as concertino or divertimento (except for the violin sonata and what they call a quintet (Hob XIV, No 01)). There is also Hob XVIII, No F2).

Initially I got them more to be completist, but i have really enjoyed them and play the disc somewhat regularly.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 20, 2013, 04:08:45 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on June 19, 2013, 11:39:33 PM
. . . Initially I got them more to be completist, but i have really enjoyed them and play the disc somewhat regularly.

That's dis Haus, all over!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 20, 2013, 04:18:32 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on June 19, 2013, 11:39:33 PM
They are good discs. I have them - very well played. And you are correct that it is mostly Hob XIV. Everything is labeled as concertino or divertimento (except for the violin sonata and what they call a quintet (Hob XIV, No 01)). There is also Hob XVIII, No F2).

Initially I got them more to be completist, but i have really enjoyed them and play the disc somewhat regularly.

Ah, the mysteries of Hoboken. Hob 18:F2 is identical in every way to the works in Hob. 14, yet he chose to stick it in with the concertos instead. Nice work it is, but certainly not a full-fledged concerto, wouldn't you agree? :)

I am pleased that you have enjoyed these. Haydn was more or less intense as the situation warranted, but even (especially?) in his light works, he was never less than very entertaining. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 24, 2013, 04:29:56 PM

More of a collector's question than a Haydn one, but someone here knows for sure (I think it may have been posted already but doesn't yield to a quick search);

How many volumes (actual disks) did Hobarth/Coin/Cohen record of the actual violin trios. I know they did the flute one too, but I am more curious about this. I have 5 disks with 3 trios each. Is that the lot?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on June 24, 2013, 07:19:09 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 24, 2013, 04:29:56 PM
More of a collector's question than a Haydn one, but someone here knows for sure (I think it may have been posted already but doesn't yield to a quick search);

How many volumes (actual disks) did Hobarth/Coin/Cohen record of the actual violin trios. I know they did the flute one too, but I am more curious about this. I have 5 disks with 3 trios each. Is that the lot?

8)

Dear, dear, this is depressing. I have three CDs worth and thought I had the lot.
The CDs I have include (in Hoboken numeration) 12-14 and 18-23.
Which ones am I missing?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on June 24, 2013, 07:27:55 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 24, 2013, 04:29:56 PM
More of a collector's question than a Haydn one, but someone here knows for sure (I think it may have been posted already but doesn't yield to a quick search);

How many volumes (actual disks) did Hobarth/Coin/Cohen record of the actual violin trios. I know they did the flute one too, but I am more curious about this. I have 5 disks with 3 trios each. Is that the lot?

8)

Yes, Gurn, that's all: Hob. XV:12-14, 18-29; in total, five single discs (although the trios XV:18-23 were re-released as a 2-CD set).

Then we also have the flute trios (Hob. XV:15-17) where Höbarth is replaced by Konrad Hünteler. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on June 24, 2013, 07:49:02 PM

So I'm missing the flute trios and Hoboken 24-29....
Thanks. Must go looking for the CDs now...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on June 24, 2013, 08:02:02 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 24, 2013, 07:49:02 PM
So I'm missing the flute trios and Hoboken 24-29....

That's right. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 25, 2013, 04:35:13 AM

Thanks for that info, Gordo. For some nagging reason, I thought there were 6 (not including the flute one), but the volumes are marked very spottily, some of them say "Vol X", some of them don't. Some say it in the original version but not in the re-release. And the 2 that Jeffrey has (from the Haydn Edition) are Vol. 1 & 2, although they don't say so on the package in that release. So now, all I have to do is to cough up ~$100 for the flute trios.... ::)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 29, 2013, 12:50:21 PM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on June 24, 2013, 08:00:00 PM
... and also the piano trios Hob. XV:15-17, with flute instead of violin (although they can be played on violin, too).

Which, that being said, other than the BAT, have you ever seen a recording which actually used the violin instead of the flute? I haven't, but I've led a sheltered life. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on June 29, 2013, 02:42:48 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 29, 2013, 12:50:21 PM
Which, that being said, other than the BAT, have you ever seen a recording which actually used the violin instead of the flute? I haven't, but I've led a sheltered life. :)

8)

;D

I just recall the Haydn Trio Eisenstadt. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 29, 2013, 02:58:57 PM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on June 29, 2013, 02:42:48 PM
;D

I just recall the Haydn Trio Eisenstadt. :)

Aha! Well, at least there is someone who has done it. I've noticed within the last decade that Beethoven works with multiple arrangements by the composer have been being recorded more often. Maybe this will spread to Haydn, too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on June 29, 2013, 03:09:49 PM

Speaking of arrangements, I found this bits of odds and ends at a used book shop for $8 and bought it on the strength of Vernet's reputation as a fine organist:

[asin]B004CQYLYY[/asin]

Gurn can probably tell us far more about the pieces than I can, but most of it's arranged for organ and chamber ensemble, and some pieces (the partitas, for example) are exclusively for organ.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 29, 2013, 04:26:55 PM

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnconcertiniVernetfrontcover_zps98911536.jpg)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnconcertiniVernetbackcover_zpsbe076a57.jpg)

Really rather hard to say if these are arrangements or if (some) of them aren't a return to the original! By and large though, this is music for harpsichord which sound really OK on an organ. The Hoboken 14 works are the same ones that Greg brought up lat week in the Trio Eisenstadt (IIRC) disks that he was asking about. There are 3 of those on here (11, 12 & 13). Even with an organ instead of a harpsichord, they are still divertimentos! Not quite as light though.

The Hob 19 works are arrangements in more than one way! These are the last 6 of a set of 32. Of the 32, some are arrangements of themes from other works of his, some are original works. I haven't looked to see which these are, probably some of each. In any case, they were adapted to be played on a musical clock (Flötenuhr) and are now being played on an organ, Flötenuhren being thin in the ground these days! :)

Hob 18:F2 is another of those concertini of Hob 14, to which Hoboken did a great disservice by placing it in Hob 18 with the keyboard concertos. It's silly, but no way to change it now. Nice little work though, just like its companion pieces.

Finally, the partita Hob 17a:2, which is a piece for keyboard 4-hands. Again, highly unlikely that it is composed for organ, but I can't see any reason to not play it on one. There is surprisingly little 4 hand music from this period, nice to hear one now and again.

You are right to think that Vernet plays these works well. Gordon brought this item up for discussion about a year ago and I was sort of cool about it because the organ is just too big for the caliber of the music it is playing. A nice little positiv would be perfect, especially since the balance of his players are quite ideal for the works. The recording engineers have done a good job in trying to balance the sound across the players, but you can feel the reserve power of that instrument waiting to be turned loose. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 29, 2013, 04:53:49 PM

Fey's volume 20 looks ready to be released. Nos. 43, 25 and 36.

Click here for more details. (http://www.haenssler-classic.de/en/detail-view/titel/symphonies-nos-43-merkur-25-36/182203/182203/182203.html)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 30, 2013, 06:13:20 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 29, 2013, 04:53:49 PM
Fey's volume 20 looks ready to be released. Nos. 43, 25 and 36.

Click here for more details. (http://www.haenssler-classic.de/en/detail-view/titel/symphonies-nos-43-merkur-25-36/182203/182203/182203.html)

I'm pissed. The Hobbit didn't listen to us, Greg! Can you believe it? :D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 30, 2013, 06:20:30 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 30, 2013, 06:13:20 AM
I'm pissed. The Hobbit didn't listen to us, Greg! Can you believe it? :D

Sarge

I know! What's wrong with him? >:D

Downside, have to wait months before volume 21 is even announced. Upside, some fresh takes on these early symphonies. I have to say, I've listened to his 26, 27 and 42 more than I originally thought I would.

But seriously, Bilbo, get back up to the 70s and 80s for a few volumes.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 30, 2013, 06:48:53 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 30, 2013, 06:20:30 AMUpside, some fresh takes on these early symphonies.

Yes, Fey should give us something completely different. I've only two versions of 25 & 36 (Fischer and Hogwood) so Fey's takes will be welcome.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 30, 2013, 01:46:16 PM

I received this double disk in yesterday's mail. Now I wish I had got it a long time ago!

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnsMusicforEnglandHogwoodcover_zpsb0138250.jpg)

A few of you have probably noticed that I like to create recitals or concerts that are plausibly realistic, and that's what Hogwood has done here, creating a recital that could have easily taken place just before Haydn left London for the final time. The instrumental soloists are all from the AAM, fortepiano played by Hogwood himself (a damned fine keyboardist for those who didn't know that). There is no orchestral music on the set, it is a combination of chamber music and song.

List of works (in order)
Hob 31a_12 Scottish Song 'The White Cockade'
Hob 31a_07 Scottish Song 'Will ye go to Flanders?'
Hob 31a_33 Scottish Song 'The Birks of Abergeldie'
Hob 31a_55 Scottish Song 'The Flowers of Edinburgh'
Hob 31a_14.2 Scottish Song 'Up in the morning early'
Hob 15_18 Trio in A for Fortepiano & Strings
Hob 03_71 Quartet in Eb for Strings
Hob 31c_17 Song 'The Lady's Looking Glass' - Country Dance (Anon)
Hob 04_02 Trio in G for 2 Flutes & Cello
Hob 26a_27 & 25 2 English Canzonettas from Book 1 - 'A Pastoral Song' - 'The Mermaid's Song'
Anon - Country Dance based on finale of Military Symphony 'Lord Cathcart's Welcome Home'
Hob 04_03 Trio in G for 2 Flutes & Cello
Hob 26a_42 English Canzonetta 'O Tuneful Voice'
Hob 01_094 (arr by Salomon) Sextet in G for Flute, Strings and Fortepiano

As you can see a very nice mix and a pleasant couple of hours of listening. Given that I invested $5 brand new, I got a generous ROI... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 02, 2013, 04:18:14 PM

We were discussing the "Trio Mosaiques" keyboard trios disks last week, and I was bemoaning the fact that the last time I had seen the flute trios disk by them it was selling for $98 (almost all of last year on AMP, in fact). So I looked again and they had a 'Like new" for less than $20, so I jumped on it! Listening to it now for the first time. Exceptionally well played, I must say.

And, it served a dual purpose for my collector's heart; it was the 6th and final disk in the "Trio Mosaiques" set, AND, AFAIK I have all of the available PI flute and keyboard trios recordings. I am curious if you know of any that I might have missed. I do like these 'bagatelles', as Haydn described one to Marianne Genzinger. :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/FluteTrios_zpsf192d98b.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 03, 2013, 06:39:16 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 02, 2013, 04:18:14 PM
We were discussing the "Trio Mosaiques" keyboard trios disks last week, and I was bemoaning the fact that the last time I had seen the flute trios disk by them it was selling for $98 (almost all of last year on AMP, in fact). So I looked again and they had a 'Like new" for less than $20, so I jumped on it! Listening to it now for the first time. Exceptionally well played, I must say.

And, it served a dual purpose for my collector's heart; it was the 6th and final disk in the "Trio Mosaiques" set, AND, AFAIK I have all of the available PI flute and keyboard trios recordings. I am curious if you know of any that I might have missed. I do like these 'bagatelles', as Haydn described one to Marianne Genzinger. :)

Hi Gurn - Trio Mosaiques - is this just a sub-group of the Quatuor Mosaiques - cannot seem to find any recordings on Amazon using the search term 'Trio M......' - just curious?

Regarding the Haydn's chamber flute works on PIs, I have Camerata Koln & the Kuijken Brothers, the latter shown below - Dave :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-Bc3k66b/0/O/Haydn_WindWorks.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 03, 2013, 08:05:27 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on July 03, 2013, 06:39:16 AM
Hi Gurn - Trio Mosaiques - is this just a sub-group of the Quatuor Mosaiques - cannot seem to find any recordings on Amazon using the search term 'Trio M......' - just curious?

Regarding the Haydn's chamber flute works on PIs, I have Camerata Koln & the Kuijken Brothers, the latter shown below - Dave :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-Bc3k66b/0/O/Haydn_WindWorks.jpg)

Hey, Dave,
Oh, TM is just a name I made up because the violin and the cello (Höbarth and Coin) are from the QM, and it's easier than writing out all 3 names every time. "Coin Haydn Trio" is a good search term, IIRC that's what I used. :)

The Kuijken disk is the trios for 2 flutes (or in their case, violin & flute) and cello (the so-called "London Trios"). Excellent disk. The Camerata Köln disk was my first of the trios with fortepiano rep, and still, it is hard to beat. Wonderful playing. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on July 03, 2013, 08:19:48 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 02, 2013, 04:18:14 PM
I am curious if you know of any that I might have missed.

8)

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Coviello/COV21011
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Meridian/CDE84181

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on July 03, 2013, 08:33:46 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on July 03, 2013, 08:25:19 AM
There is a part of me that is willing to suspend disbelief and entertain buying this
[asin]B001DCQI9Q[/asin]

Something about a blind pig occasionally finding an acorn for some reason came to mind.

Not as bad as some would lead you to believe, but far from ideal. Forceful, but deficient in humor and winds. Certainly a big contrast to the typical HIP recording and I find it more interesting than most other anti-HIP recordings. An occasional guilty pleasure for me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 03, 2013, 08:37:27 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on July 03, 2013, 08:19:48 AM
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Coviello/COV21011
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Meridian/CDE84181

Cool, thanks, Navneeth. I'll see if I can run those down on this side. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 03, 2013, 03:46:02 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 03, 2013, 08:05:27 AM
Hey, Dave,
Oh, TM is just a name I made up because the violin and the cello (Höbarth and Coin) are from the QM, and it's easier than writing out all 3 names every time. "Coin Haydn Trio" is a good search term, IIRC that's what I used. : ..................

Yep, my assumption, but just wanted to verified it before sending 'GMG Avengers' after you! ;) :D Dave

(http://www.hdwallpapers.in/walls/the_avengers_movie_2012-HD.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 04, 2013, 11:36:18 AM

Listening today to a newly released version of the 6 Sonatas (Duos) for Violin & Viola of Hob 6.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnViolinampViolaDuosGuglielmoPivacover_zps93a86f6a.jpg)

I have been enamored of these simple little works ever since my first venture with this disk via the Duo Ongarese;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/71JloMjbpWL_zpscc1b8a52.jpg)

using the score with cello instead of viola (not sanctioned by Haydn, but actually published nearly as early as his version was!). Since then I have also gotten these two versions, the first a superb PI version, the second a very fine MI one;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSteckGoossesDuoscoversquaredup_zpsc9ade60e.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnViolinampViolaDuoscoverfront_zps71d471e1.jpg)

Detail of the front cover of the 1st edition score;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnViolinampViolaDuoscoverback_zps95282e0d.jpg)

Although no one is entirely positive when or why Haydn wrote these works, it has been narrowed down to 1769-70, and as an adjunct to the Baryton Trios that were the steady diet of after-dinner music in those years. They are much the same in style, but the presence of a violin, lacking in the trios, lend them an air of gaiety that seems harder to find in the trios. The violin is clearly the showpiece here, possibly these were meant to be played by Tomasini since his presence was not required in the trios. The viola plays only an occasional obligatto riff, being confined mainly to a basso role.

This recording has a wonderful presence. The playing is excellent, but the thing that makes it stand out is that it sounds like the players are sitting right there in front of you! This performance makes a solid run at Steck & Gooses! If the price of Accent recordings puts you off, the Brilliant price point will put this disk at the top of your list. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on July 04, 2013, 09:32:39 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 04, 2013, 11:36:18 AM
If the price of Accent recordings puts you off, the Brilliant price point will put this disk at the top of your list. :)

8)

This disc seems to be at the top of many lists: My copy through DeepDiscount has been on back order for about a month and a similar situation is occurring across the internet. Methinks BC failed to account for how popular the price point made this disc. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 05, 2013, 04:12:20 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on July 04, 2013, 09:32:39 PM
This disc seems to be at the top of many lists: My copy through DeepDiscount has been on back order for about a month and a similar situation is occurring across the internet. Methinks BC failed to account for how popular the price point made this disc. :)

I got mine from MovieMars through the AMP for $5.35 + s&h, and surprisingly they shipped promptly and I got within 10 days (a new record for MM!). Not surprised it is selling well though, even if it took word of mouth to get it going there. Not like Brilliant do any advertising. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on July 11, 2013, 12:40:57 AM

Wanda Landowska's late Haydn solo recordings have never been available commercially but they're now been transferred very well here:

http://shellackophile.blogspot.co.uk/2013_03_01_archive.html

Pleyel plucking piano and Steinway. Well worth reading her little essay on Haydn which is included in the download.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on July 15, 2013, 12:45:03 AM

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00BHEG6CO.01.L.jpg)
J. Haydn
Complete Sonatas
Ekaterina Derzhavina
Profil Hänssler (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00BHEG6CO/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00BHEG6CO/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00BHEG6CO/goodmusicguideuk-21)

Only on disc 3 and already in love. Recorded between 1993 and 2008, for SWR in their studios, loving sonata by sonata... now released on Profil and absolutely given away via mp3 ($10).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on July 15, 2013, 12:59:26 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on July 15, 2013, 12:45:03 AM
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00BHEG6CO.01.L.jpg)
J. Haydn
Complete Sonatas
Ekaterina Derzhavina
Profil Hänssler (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00BHEG6CO/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00BHEG6CO/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00BHEG6CO/goodmusicguideuk-21)

Only on disc 3 and already in love. Recorded between 1993 and 2008, for SWR in their studios, loving sonata by sonata... now released on Profil and absolutely given away via mp3 ($10).

Hmm. I don't know. The early stuff sounds like what I call bimpley music (listening to the excerpts). Does this word exist? This is when the pianist pings too much and notes are not held long enough. Frilly is perhaps another way of saying it. Can't beat the price though.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on July 15, 2013, 01:11:35 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on July 15, 2013, 12:59:26 AM
Hmm. I don't know. The early stuff sounds like what I call bimpley music (listening to the excerpts). Does this word exist? This is when the pianist pings too much and notes are not held long enough. Frilly is perhaps another way of saying it. Can't beat the price though.

Hmmm... I suppose I can imagine what bimpley music might be, but I hear wit and spunk and every once in a while she really revs the engines and has fun with these little things... certainly am enjoying these more than on the other sets I have... (McCabe, Jando, Schornsheim...)

Are you listening off the excerpts off your computer?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on July 15, 2013, 02:23:14 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on July 15, 2013, 01:11:35 AM
Hmmm... I suppose I can imagine what bimpley music might be, but I hear wit and spunk and every once in a while she really revs the engines and has fun with these little things... certainly am enjoying these more than on the other sets I have... (McCabe, Jando, Schornsheim...)

Are you listening off the excerpts off your computer?

Yes - which is why I hesitate to put too much stock into it. Though, the notes are still on the short side, but if the normal quality version has more warmth, this effet might go away. I didn't notice it on the later sonatas, which indicates to me it could also be the style of the earlier works.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on July 24, 2013, 05:47:16 AM

There was a festival of music in the Austrian region of Styria at the start of the month. Harnoncourt gave a Haydn concert as part of it on the 7th , including Symphony 26. A recording of of the concert is on concertarchive. Take it if you can, it's interesting. What you hear straight away is how distinctive and airy CMV's sound is. And how astute Harnoncourt has become at not only playing musical lines in tension, but also at peppering a performance with contrasting textures and timbres. Next to Harnoncourt's 26, Cambrelling sounds lyrical and heavy and Fey, who I like more and more, sounds like . . . I dunno . . . fey sounds like someone in a hurry with a lot to say.

Harnoncourt hasn't recorded 26 commercially, has he? I'm convinced he's going through a purple patch right now, this and the new Missa Solemnis. All the boldness of the ideas in Music as Speech put into practice.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 24, 2013, 06:01:22 AM

Interesting. No, he hasn't recorded it commercially. I would love it if they would release a new CD of 3 or 4 symphonies, with this one included. Long overdue.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 24, 2013, 11:23:12 AM

Where are all the Haydnistos gone? Maybe Haydn is just a wintertime composer? :D

New blog post today:

http://haydnseek.typepad.com/my-blog/

It's nice to have the time and space to go into a bit more depth than I did here. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 24, 2013, 11:33:41 AM

Very nicely done, sir! Again, an excellent and informative read.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 24, 2013, 11:39:38 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 24, 2013, 11:33:41 AM
Very nicely done, sir! Again, an excellent and informative read.

Many thanks, amigo. Even the extended posts I was writing here didn't really offer the potential opportunities of an actual blog. One day, I may even learn how to use that stuff! :-[ :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on July 24, 2013, 12:14:51 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 24, 2013, 11:23:12 AM
Where are all the Haydnistos gone? Maybe Haydn is just a wintertime composer? :D

New blog post today:

http://haydnseek.typepad.com/my-blog/

It's nice to have the time and space to go into a bit more depth than I did here. :)

8)

If all the Haydnistos are waiting for other Haydnistas to post, we have a humdinger of a Haydnisto holdout! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 24, 2013, 12:22:41 PM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on July 24, 2013, 12:14:51 PM
If all the Haydnistos are waiting for other Haydnistas to post, we have a humdinger of a Haydnisto holdout! :)

Well, I have been listening to Haydn....

After all this time, and in the interest of completeness, I finally bought Pinnock's 'Times of Day' symphonies. AFAIK, they were the last PI set I was lacking. Got them yesterday, hope to listen to them tonight. Somewhere or other I read a couple of negative reviews of them and just became a sort of holdout. Anyone else have these?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 24, 2013, 01:48:31 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 24, 2013, 12:22:41 PM
Well, I have been listening to Haydn....

After all this time, and in the interest of completeness, I finally bought Pinnock's 'Times of Day' symphonies. AFAIK, they were the last PI set I was lacking. Got them yesterday, hope to listen to them tonight. Somewhere or other I read a couple of negative reviews of them and just became a sort of holdout. Anyone else have these?

8)

No, also read negative reviews on Pinnock's 6-8, pushed it aside for the recent purchase of Kuijken and Apollo Ensemble, which I have no regrets over, two fantastic discs.

I was wonderfully endulging in Edding Quartet's recording of Op. 77 and 103 today, Haydn still has a strong summer presence on my end. :) 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 24, 2013, 02:59:36 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 24, 2013, 01:48:31 PM
No, also read negative reviews on Pinnock's 6-8, pushed it aside for the recent purchase of Kuijken and Apollo Ensemble, which I have no regrets over, two fantastic discs.

I was wonderfully indulging in Edding Quartet's recording of Op. 77 and 103 today, Haydn still has a strong summer presence on my end. :) 8)

Yes all three of those disks are super. The Apollo I found on a whim, but the Kuijken I went looking for (and glad I did! Thanks to those who rec'd it). As for the Edding, I wonder that it hasn't brought them more attention. It really is a fine rendition. OK, you get a free pass. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on July 25, 2013, 07:18:25 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 24, 2013, 11:23:12 AM
Where are all the Haydnistos gone? Maybe Haydn is just a wintertime composer? :D

New blog post today:

http://haydnseek.typepad.com/my-blog/

It's nice to have the time and space to go into a bit more depth than I did here. :)

8)

Splendid work, Gurn! Thank you.

Quote
It has been postulated that Haydn had nationalistic reasons for claiming that Bach was his inspiration rather than the Italian Sammartini, however, it is my considered opinion that nationalism was far from Haydn's mind in this case.

Actually, nationalism such as we know it today was virtually unknown at that time. The officialdom, the diplomacy, the cultural life and the army of a country were full of foreigners; we see Italians in the service of Austria, Frenchmen in the service of Holland, Prussians in the service of Russia and Germans in the service of Denmark and all sort of viceversa. The absolute champion of cosmopolitanism was indisputably the Austrian-led Holy Roman Empire.

Quote
German musicians didn't like Haydn's music, and Germany was no friend of Austria despite the common language. They were, in fact rather the opposite. Italy, such as it was at the time, was a part of the same Holy Roman Empire that Austria and Hungary were.

If I may split the hair, there was no Germany nor Italy at the time. There were a multitude of German states which were all, except Prussia, part of the Holy Roman Empire (dissolved in 1806 and succeeded by the Austrian Empire; as an aside, the Austro-Hungarian Empire was created in 1867 and any mention of it prior to that year is an anachronism). Italian territory was split between Austrian dominions, the Papal States, the Republic of Venice, the Kingdom of Naples-Two Sicilies and various (grand) duchies the most famous of which were Tuscany and Parma (immortalized by Stendhal in The Charterhouse of Parma).

:D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 25, 2013, 07:40:57 AM

Quote from: Florestan on July 25, 2013, 07:18:25 AM
Splendid work, Gurn! Thank you.

....the army of a country were full of foreigners; we see Italians in the service of Austria, Frenchmen in the service of Holland, Prussians in the service of Russia and Germans in the service of Denmark and all sort of viceversa.

Hessians in the service of Britain.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 25, 2013, 07:41:49 AM

Quote from: Florestan on July 25, 2013, 07:18:25 AM
Splendid work, Gurn! Thank you.

And thank YOU, :)

QuoteActually, nationalism such as we know it today was virtually unknown at that time. The officialdom, the diplomacy, the cultural life and the army of a country were full of foreigners; we see Italians in the service of Austria, Frenchmen in the service of Holland, Prussians in the service of Russia and Germans in the service of Denmark and all sort of viceversa. The absolute champion of cosmopolitanism was indisputably the Austrian-led Holy Roman Empire.

If I may split the hair, there was no Germany nor Italy at the time. There were a multitude of German states which were all, except Prussia, part of the Holy Roman Empire (dissolved in 1806 and succeeded by the Austrian Empire; as an aside, the Austro-Hungarian Empire was created in 1867 and any mention of it prior to that year is an anachronism). Italian territory was split between Austrian dominions, the Papal States, the Republic of Venice, the Kingdom of Naples-Two Sicilies and various (grand) duchies the most famous of which were Tuscany and Parma (immortalized by Stendhal in The Charterhouse of Parma).

Yes, precisely so. There were no such countries as Italy and Germany, although there were plenty of Italians and Germans! In the context of writing popularly, it can be difficult without creating a cascade of parenthetical phrases to convey to non-specialists a series of concepts that are foreign (sorry about that :) ) to them. So when I say "Germany" I mean Prussia, and when I say "Italy", I mean the collection of city-states that existed independently on the Italian peninsula. It's just so much easier. :)

My thoughts on the "nationalistic" idea is that the original of that was written during the post 1848 wave of German Nationalism that convulsed the country. The very idea that Haydn would have renounced Sammartini and embraced CPE Bach for any reason other than one 'German' embracing another wouldn't have been acceptable at that point. As we all know, political correctness doesn't make it so. :)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on July 25, 2013, 07:44:18 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 25, 2013, 07:40:57 AM
Hessians in the service of Britain.

Sarge

The most famous of them being The Headless Horseman, no doubt. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on July 25, 2013, 07:54:32 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 25, 2013, 07:41:49 AM
My thoughts on the "nationalistic" idea is that the original of that was written during the post 1848 wave of German Nationalism that convulsed the country.

In this respect I remember a line from Daniel Kehlmann's Measuring The World. In the context of the Napoleonic wars, Eugen, the son of the famous German mathematician Carl Friedrich Gauss and an ardent nationalist, enthusiastically ejaculates in front of his father: The country's full of excitement, father! To which Gauss replies: Rather full of idiots!. ;D :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 25, 2013, 07:57:43 AM

Quote from: Florestan on July 25, 2013, 07:54:32 AM
In this respect I remember a line from Daniel Kehlmann's Measuring The World. In the context of the Napoleonic wars, Eugen, the son of the famous German mathematician Carl Friedrich Gauss and an ardent nationalist, enthusiastically ejaculates in front of his father: The country's full of excitement, father! To which Gauss replies: Rather full of idiots!. ;D :D

:D I love that. Although, I must say that my enthusiastic ejaculations have never taken place in front of my father. ::) I could go on, but damned if I will. ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on July 25, 2013, 08:00:23 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 25, 2013, 07:57:43 AM
:D I love that. Although, I must say that my enthusiastic ejaculations have never taken place in front of my father. ::) I could go on, but damned if I will. ;)

8)

Well, in Romanian to ejaculate has only the meaning you'd not go on over, not the other one! ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on July 25, 2013, 08:07:29 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 25, 2013, 07:57:43 AM
:D I love that. Although, I must say that my enthusiastic ejaculations have never taken place in front of my father. ::) I could go on, but damned if I will. ;)

8)

Those were different times... and it reminds of this. [Someone said they liked taking threads off topic, didn't they? ;D]

https://www.youtube.com/v/x5JEJiiSZCM

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 25, 2013, 08:12:29 AM

Quote from: Florestan on July 25, 2013, 08:00:23 AM
Well, in Romanian to ejaculate has only the meaning you'd not go on over, not the other one! ;D ;D ;D

"Life would be dismembered if words had one meaning only!", Gurn ejaculated violently! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 25, 2013, 08:17:35 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on July 25, 2013, 08:07:29 AM
Those were different times... and it reminds of this. [Someone said they liked taking threads off topic, didn't they? ;D]

https://www.youtube.com/v/x5JEJiiSZCM

Well, that was brilliant. Especially since I just finished re-reading 'The Complete Sherlock Holmes' earlier this week, so I got all the references without a 25 year interval of lag time. Haydn would have pounded the table! (staying OT). :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 25, 2013, 08:25:13 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 25, 2013, 08:17:35 AM
. . . I just finished re-reading 'The Complete Sherlock Holmes' earlier this week . . . .

How long did it take you? Or, rather, what time interval between your starting, and concluding?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 25, 2013, 08:36:04 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 25, 2013, 08:25:13 AM
How long did it take you? Or, rather, what time interval between your starting, and concluding?

2 months, but I only read while eating lunch. I leave my Kindle in the car. I listen to Haydn while reading, I must add.... 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 25, 2013, 08:43:57 AM

I'm impressed that you got it done with such dispatch!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 25, 2013, 10:00:22 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 25, 2013, 08:43:57 AM
I'm impressed that you got it done with such dispatch!

Och, she's nowt but ~1600 or so (hard to tell on a Kindle). I enjoyed them even more this go'round than I did when I discovered them in my second year of high school. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 25, 2013, 10:02:10 AM

You've been having a tug at the Glenmorangie, hain't you?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 25, 2013, 10:32:13 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 25, 2013, 10:02:10 AM
You've been having a tug at the Glenmorangie, hain't you?

Ah, the peaty smell of Speyside wafting into the sharp, chill air; what, ME?

"Here, Joey, ha ya a whuskey and then play me some more o'that Robbie Burns..." :'(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on July 25, 2013, 10:47:00 AM

I've been listening to the Brilliant set of Haydn, going through the Baryton works now. Man, it's like discovering a new moon orbiting around an already rich planet of diversity and color! Haydn's Baryton output is vast, like his symphonies or quartets. So much to explore :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on July 25, 2013, 11:01:00 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on July 25, 2013, 08:07:29 AM
Those were different times... and it reminds of this. [Someone said they liked taking threads off topic, didn't they? ;D]

https://www.youtube.com/v/x5JEJiiSZCM

Huh. Unrelated to this thread, I've just watched that episode today. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on July 25, 2013, 11:53:23 AM

Quote from: Leo K. on July 25, 2013, 10:47:00 AM
I've been listening to the Brilliant set of Haydn, going through the Baryton works now. Man, it's like discovering a new moon orbiting around an already rich planet of diversity and color! Haydn's Baryton output is vast, like his symphonies or quartets. So much to explore :)

It's dirty work, but someone's gotta do it! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 25, 2013, 12:34:40 PM

Quote from: Leo K. on July 25, 2013, 10:47:00 AM
I've been listening to the Brilliant set of Haydn, going through the Baryton works now. Man, it's like discovering a new moon orbiting around an already rich planet of diversity and color! Haydn's Baryton output is vast, like his symphonies or quartets. So much to explore :)

A lot of people aren't greatly enthusiastic about the baryton trios, and I suspect it has to do with their overall rather more somber than jolly outlook. I listen to maybe 12-15 a week, spaced out so they don't overwhelm me. The music itself is all the things that modernists say is big in their music, and tonal besides. Glad that you like them; clearly, so do I. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 25, 2013, 12:36:03 PM

Quote from: jlaurson on July 25, 2013, 11:01:00 AM
Huh. Unrelated to this thread, I've just watched that episode today. :)

What show is that, Jens? I thought it was a hoot, it certainly hit on my own interests.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 25, 2013, 12:41:39 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 25, 2013, 12:34:40 PM
A lot of people aren't greatly enthusiastic about the baryton trios, and I suspect it has to do with their overall rather more somber than jolly outlook. I listen to maybe 12-15 a week, spaced out so they don't overwhelm me. The music itself is all the things that modernists say is big in their music, and tonal besides. Glad that you like them; clearly, so do I. :)

8)

Dunno. Somber tone of itself does not dissuade (e.g.) this Shostakovich enthusiast : ). I enjoy the baryton works, but I'm not mad keen on them...perhaps they're a 5 on my scale of 7.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on July 25, 2013, 12:50:09 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 25, 2013, 12:36:03 PM
What show is that, Jens? I thought it was a hoot, it certainly hit on my own interests.

8)

QI -- soon becoming one of the longest running panel shows in the UK, with Stephen Fry at the helm (and his "dim alter ego", Alan Davies... the foil of the show), where he's having a lark trying to squeeze as much comedy out of quite interesting facts of life and science and such, with a panel of changing, assorted (but ever repeating) comedians. More addictive than great, but always good fun.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 25, 2013, 12:53:04 PM

Quote from: jlaurson on July 25, 2013, 12:50:09 PM
QI -- soon becoming one of the longest running panel shows in the UK, with Stephen Fry at the helm (and his "dim alter ego", Alan Davies... the foil of the show), where he's having a lark trying to squeeze as much comedy out of quite interesting facts of life and science and such, with a panel of changing, assorted (but ever repeating) comedians. More addictive than great, but always good fun.

Aha! I thought the QI was short for something, not the whole lot. Yes, it appears exactly as you describe, which is just the sort of entertainment value I long for from television but which has long since disappeared over here. Except on BBC America, of course. :)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 25, 2013, 12:56:25 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 25, 2013, 12:41:39 PM
Dunno. Somber tone of itself does not dissuade (e.g.) this Shostakovich enthusiast : ). I enjoy the baryton works, but I'm not mad keen on them...perhaps they're a 5 on my scale of 7.

I believe it dissuades in large doses though, Karl. But if you play 3 or 4 at a time and then move on, they don't become at all oppressive, rather they just change the pace momentarily. Also, there is no soprano instrument, it would be a stretch to call the baryton and viola an alto in these works. It all adds up, I think, since people's expectations have been largely molded differently. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on July 25, 2013, 01:19:44 PM

Quote from: Florestan on July 25, 2013, 07:44:18 AM
The most famous of them being The Headless Horseman, no doubt. :D

More likely, the poor conscripts who were Washington's targets when he made the famous crossing of the Delaware.

Actually, given that Sammartini essentially spent his life in Austrian ruled Milan, one would have expected Haydn to play up the connection if he was motivated by political considerations--going for a faithful Italian Hapsburg subject instead of one of those Saxon heretics.

On another thread related note, I got three CDs of the Kodaly SQ recordings today (op. 71, op. 77, op. 1). At three dollars a CD, I decided it was worth giving them a second chance. I've never been thrilled by their recording of Op. 76,

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 25, 2013, 01:45:57 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 25, 2013, 12:56:25 PM
I believe it dissuades in large doses though, Karl. But if you play 3 or 4 at a time and then move on, they don't become at all oppressive, rather they just change the pace momentarily. Also, there is no soprano instrument, it would be a stretch to call the baryton and viola an alto in these works. It all adds up, I think, since people's expectations have been largely molded differently. :)

8)

I don't deny your considerations there, O Gurn. And it is no real mark against the genre, that one can take perhaps three at a go.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 25, 2013, 03:52:18 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 25, 2013, 01:45:57 PM
And it is no real mark against the genre, that one can take perhaps three at a go.

Yes indeed! There are a goodly number of things that I can't take 3 in a row of. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on July 25, 2013, 06:22:11 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 25, 2013, 03:52:18 PM
Yes indeed! There are a goodly number of things that I can't take 3 in a row of. :)

8)

Not to mention the things which it's hard to take one in a row....

On thread duty: I'm listening to the Kodalys play Op. 71 now. Much better impression than what I remembered of their Op. 76 (which I found stolid and rather drear--perhaps a revisit is in order if Op. 77 matches Op. 71).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 25, 2013, 06:38:59 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 25, 2013, 06:22:11 PM
Not to mention the things which it's hard to take one in a row....

On thread duty: I'm listening to the Kodalys play Op. 71 now. Much better impression than what I remembered of their Op. 76 (which I found stolid and rather drear--perhaps a revisit is in order if Op. 77 matches Op. 71).

Other than the Carmina's Op 76, the Kodaly's were my first taste of all the other Haydn quartets. It has been a long time since I pulled them off the shelf, being overrun as I am with string quartet recordings, but they were good enough to instill a love of the music in me that has never faded, and for that I am grateful. It is entirely possible that in every opus you can find a recording that surpasses, but as a set, I think they are a fine accomplishment. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on July 25, 2013, 09:46:41 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 25, 2013, 12:53:04 PM
[QI] is just the sort of entertainment value I long for from television but which has long since disappeared over here. Except on BBC America, of course. :)

Thanks,
8)

This reads almost like the typical top-rated comment beneath every episode available on YouTube. I've watched the whole thing, A-J (barring the last episode that's yet to air even in the UK), at least once, and most episodes more than once. It's become almost a daily ritual now, and it doesn't get old. 0:) There's also a documentary on how the show came to be.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 27, 2013, 04:22:20 PM

Arrived in today's post. I always get a warm fuzzy when I run across something that I didn't even know existed and it turns out to be top shelf. :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnScottishSongsampCanzonettasMhairieLawsoncover_zps124f35a0.jpg)

This is the 12 canzonettas for Voice & Fortepiano, sung beautifully by Mhairi (that IS the Gaelic 'Mary', is it not?) and played by Olga Tverskaya. In addition are the other songs that qualify as canzonettas but didn't make the book, like 'The Lady's Looking Glass' and 'The Spirit's Song', as well as 'O Tuneful Voice', Haydn's setting of a poem that Ann Hunter wrote for him as a going away gift when he left England the final time. Finally, there are 4 Scottish and 1 Welsh folk songs, and these are accompanied (piano trio) by Tverskaya, Rachel Podger & Oleg Kogan. All in all a splendid disk, delighted to have tripped over it.

Extra bonus points if you can identify the painter of the cover picture (it's just a thumbnail of the entire). :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on July 28, 2013, 04:26:38 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 27, 2013, 04:22:20 PM
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnScottishSongsampCanzonettasMhairieLawsoncover_zps124f35a0.jpg)

Extra bonus points if you can identify the painter of the cover picture (it's just a thumbnail of the entire). :)

I'll go with Joshua Reynolds' "Cupid Undoing Venus' Dress"

(Booby-pics were where I paid the most attention in Renaissance Art 102.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 28, 2013, 07:44:24 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on July 28, 2013, 04:26:38 AM
I'll go with Joshua Reynolds' "Cupid Undoing Venus' Dress"

(Booby-pics were where I paid the most attention in Renaissance Art 102.)

And clearly it did you some permanent good! Yes indeed, Joshua Reynolds it is. I found the re-release of this disk once I knew what to look for, and to no one's surprise, it is cropped in a booby-free sort of way. Pity, really... :(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 29, 2013, 08:26:28 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 29, 2013, 04:53:49 PMFey's volume 20 looks ready to be released. Nos. 43, 25 and 36

We finally have a release date. (http://www.amazon.de/Sinfonien-43-25-Thomas-Fey/dp/B00DTPY6MQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1375114778&sr=8-1&keywords=B00DTPY6MQ) Two weeks from now.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 29, 2013, 08:40:48 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 28, 2013, 07:44:24 AM
And clearly it did you some permanent good! Yes indeed, Joshua Reynolds it is. I found the re-release of this disk once I knew what to look for, and to no one's surprise, it is cropped in a booby-free sort of way. Pity, really... :(

8)

Tyranny against boobies!!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 29, 2013, 08:41:35 AM

These look like they're free at last of the shackles . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 29, 2013, 09:09:43 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 29, 2013, 08:26:28 AM
We finally have a release date. (http://www.amazon.de/Sinfonien-43-25-Thomas-Fey/dp/B00DTPY6MQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1375114778&sr=8-1&keywords=B00DTPY6MQ) Two weeks from now.

Sarge

Thanks for the heads up, Sarge. Will be pre-ordering...after I write the Hobbit Fey stressing the importance of recording more symphonies in the 70s-80s range.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 29, 2013, 09:12:23 AM

Offer him a bushel of mushrooms.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 29, 2013, 09:25:26 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 29, 2013, 09:12:23 AM
Offer him a bushel of mushrooms.

Only ones I could find were bigger than his own head, small Hobbit heads they've got.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 29, 2013, 09:25:44 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 29, 2013, 09:12:23 AM
Offer him a bushel of mushrooms.

A Ring might even tempt him more ;)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 29, 2013, 09:32:55 AM

Pipeweed!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 29, 2013, 09:44:55 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 29, 2013, 08:41:35 AM
These look like they're free at last of the shackles . . . .

Which boobies do you address here, Karl? The Golden Bozos? Or the feathered friends? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 29, 2013, 09:54:12 AM

That would be telling.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 30, 2013, 04:41:09 PM

I've at last begun an earnest sally upon the piano sonatas, starting with the latest, if only because I have Hamelin playing some of those . . . and I am enjoying the pieces on pianos both modern and ancient.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on July 31, 2013, 12:19:25 PM

NEWS FROM THE SHIRE

HAYDN, J.: Symphonies, Vol. 20 (Fey) - Nos. 25, 36, 43
Symphony No. 25 in C major, Hob.I:25 • Symphony No. 36 in E flat major, Hob.I:36 • Symphony No. 43 in E flat major, Hob.I:43, "Mercury"
Fey, Thomas - conductor / Heidelberg Symphony Orchestra

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 01, 2013, 02:36:30 AM

Quote from: Brian on July 31, 2013, 12:19:25 PM
NEWS FROM THE SHIRE

HAYDN, J.: Symphonies, Vol. 20 (Fey) - Nos. 25, 36, 43
Symphony No. 25 in C major, Hob.I:25 • Symphony No. 36 in E flat major, Hob.I:36 • Symphony No. 43 in E flat major, Hob.I:43, "Mercury"
Fey, Thomas - conductor / Heidelberg Symphony Orchestra

We know:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg725120.html#msg725120

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg730316.html#msg730316

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 01, 2013, 03:39:47 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 01, 2013, 02:36:30 AM
We know:

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg725120.html#msg725120

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg730316.html#msg730316

Sarge

Sarge and I subscribe to "News From The Shire".

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 01, 2013, 03:43:42 AM

The East Farthing Daily Intelligencer, for me.

Continuing my immersion in the piano sonatas.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 01, 2013, 04:11:44 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on August 01, 2013, 03:43:42 AM
The East Farthing Daily Intelligencer, for me.

Continuing my immersion in the piano sonatas.

A laudable pastime, Karl. Hope they are doing well for you.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 01, 2013, 04:18:11 AM

Quite typically for me, Gurn, I find I am enjoying about equally well the jangly-old-instrument angle, and the silken-modern-piano stylings.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 01, 2013, 05:03:17 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on August 01, 2013, 04:18:11 AM
Quite typically for me, Gurn, I find I am enjoying about equally well the jangly-old-instrument angle, and the silken-modern-piano stylings.

Well, I like jangly better, of course, but the music is more powerful than the modern Steinway too. I saw you were going backwards, a couple that I really like near the last are Hob 48 & 49. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 01, 2013, 05:24:09 AM

With Haydn's work in particular, there's more ways to the woods than one. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on August 01, 2013, 10:25:33 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 25, 2013, 12:34:40 PM
A lot of people aren't greatly enthusiastic about the baryton trios, and I suspect it has to do with their overall rather more somber than jolly outlook. I listen to maybe 12-15 a week, spaced out so they don't overwhelm me. The music itself is all the things that modernists say is big in their music, and tonal besides. Glad that you like them; clearly, so do I. :)

8)

Gurn, I like how you point out the somber quality in the baryton trios, I didn't really realize that until now :) I also space them out. Wow are they a treasure.

I've also aquired the BIS set of Haydn's early divertimentos, and wow what a revelation!

I've been listening to Haydn and Beethoven lately. It's nice to return to these guys.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 01, 2013, 10:36:55 AM

Quote from: Leo K. on August 01, 2013, 10:25:33 AM
Gurn, I like how you point out the somber quality in the baryton trios, I didn't really realize that until now :) I also space them out. Wow are they a treasure.

I've also aquired the BIS set of Haydn's early divertimentos, and wow what a revelation!

I've been listening to Haydn and Beethoven lately. It's nice to return to these guys.

That's all some good music, Leo. When you consider context, the trios are not there to entertain anyone except the 3 players. I find them to be very, very civilized, as serious as it got back then.

OTOH, the divertimentos are exactly the opposite; total entertainment music. That BIS box is a great investment, I'm glad you made the commitment to it. It will repay you many times over.

I haven't been listening to so much Beethoven, but Haydn and then Mozart's chamber music. Sort of contrast and compare. So similar and yet so entirely different from Haydn. I am awash in great music. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on August 01, 2013, 10:52:44 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 01, 2013, 10:36:55 AM
That's all some good music, Leo. When you consider context, the trios are not there to entertain anyone except the 3 players. I find them to be very, very civilized, as serious as it got back then.

OTOH, the divertimentos are exactly the opposite; total entertainment music. That BIS box is a great investment, I'm glad you made the commitment to it. It will repay you many times over.

I haven't been listening to so much Beethoven, but Haydn and then Mozart's chamber music. Sort of contrast and compare. So similar and yet so entirely different from Haydn. I am awash in great music. :)

8)

For Mozart, I've been reaching for the piano concerti, but wow, I also got the Guerneri set of the quartets. I feel spoiled sometimes ;)

Haydn's Divertimenti is SO amazing, and just the thing I'm seeking now, a time machine to evenings inside the Esterhazy palace!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on August 02, 2013, 12:00:47 PM

I've finally got a chance to have a serious listen to Goodman's HIP Haydn symphony set. It is an amazing set in every way.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 02, 2013, 04:08:06 PM

Quote from: Leo K. on August 02, 2013, 12:00:47 PM
I've finally got a chance to have a serious listen to Goodman's HIP Haydn symphony set. It is an amazing set in every way.

Agreed. Excellent playing, great sound. I guess this is why it is so difficult to commit to just one set of symphonies. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on August 05, 2013, 12:30:18 PM

Listening to Hobbit's #36. This is what I get for not actually buying every volume: I didn't realize he was using harpsichords sometimes. Still, it's unobtrusive enough I'm not that annoyed...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 05, 2013, 01:00:05 PM

Quote from: Brian on August 05, 2013, 12:30:18 PM
Listening to Hobbit's #36. This is what I get for not actually buying every volume: I didn't realize he was using harpsichords sometimes. Still, it's unobtrusive enough I'm not that annoyed...

Geez, Brian, you are really sensitive! What would you have done if you lived back then and every piece of music had some sort of keyboard accompaniment? Well, at least you have Hogwood available in case you have a need for good music from time to time. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 05, 2013, 04:59:36 PM

This arrived today. I have been working at expanding my collections of performances of Haydn's songs, an under-appreciated segment of his output. Too bad really, he was an excellent composer for the voice.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSongsBottBuryTanPleeth_zps211acdd1.jpg)

This is the first disk I have heard by Catherine Bott, although the Meridian liner notes claim her to be a highly acclaimed performer. Her voice is excellent, and especially well-suited for songs rather than opera. The players are all well-known and with good reason, shown here. The Scottish songs are all from the edition of Napier (1792-95) rather than the later versions that Haydn did for Thompson and Whyte. Glad I finally picked this one up, plus got a great price from importCDs that even included free postage (off eBay)!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on August 05, 2013, 07:12:26 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 05, 2013, 01:00:05 PM
Geez, Brian, you are really sensitive! What would you have done if you lived back then and every piece of music had some sort of keyboard accompaniment? Well, at least you have Hogwood available in case you have a need for good music from time to time. :)

8)

It's weird - I'm perfectly fine with the harpsichord in baroque-era music (e.g. Bach, Vivaldi, though in Vivaldi I'd prefer the new trend for lutes or other continuos), and I'm fine with it in solo works too, but put a harpsichord in a middle-to-late Haydn or Mozart symphony and I start going bananas. It's just my own terrible taste! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 06, 2013, 04:17:46 AM

Quote from: Brian on August 05, 2013, 07:12:26 PM
It's weird - I'm perfectly fine with the harpsichord in baroque-era music (e.g. Bach, Vivaldi, though in Vivaldi I'd prefer the new trend for lutes or other continuos), and I'm fine with it in solo works too, but put a harpsichord in a middle-to-late Haydn or Mozart symphony and I start going bananas. It's just my own terrible taste! :D

Yeah, I'll grant you that, although #36 is only from 1761, so it's hard to find a more appropriate age... what really used to eat my lunch was Mozart's early solo keyboards works (mostly variations) played on harpsichord, and the early concertos. Despite the fact that it was the most appropriate instrument for it, I just had this thing about Mozart on the cembalo! :P

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 06, 2013, 04:20:30 AM

FWIW, the harpsichordist I know best, I have never known to play any of the Mozart keyboard solo works.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 06, 2013, 04:28:19 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on August 06, 2013, 04:20:30 AM
FWIW, the harpsichordist I know best, I have never known to play any of the Mozart keyboard solo works.

Probably a wise choice. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 06, 2013, 04:40:29 AM

Quote from: Brian on August 05, 2013, 07:12:26 PM
It's weird - I'm perfectly fine with the harpsichord in baroque-era music (e.g. Bach, Vivaldi, though in Vivaldi I'd prefer the new trend for lutes or other continuos), and I'm fine with it in solo works too, but put a harpsichord in a middle-to-late Haydn or Mozart symphony and I start going bananas. It's just my own terrible taste! :D

No, your taste is just fine 8) At least Fey keeps the harpischord (when he employs it; he doesn't always, and never in the later works) in check, unlike Goodman's jumbo keyboard. Fey's marginally less annoying to me.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 06, 2013, 05:22:16 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on August 06, 2013, 05:17:18 AM
That's [using harpsichord in the symphonies]at least one thing about Fey's cycle that interests me.

:)

+1

I feel that many times the harpsichord adds an interesting "propulsive" element to the music, a very enjoyable sense of urgency. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 06, 2013, 05:33:08 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on August 06, 2013, 05:22:16 AM
+1

I feel that many times the harpsichord adds an interesting "propulsive" element to the music, a very enjoyable sense of urgency. :)

I'm bi. I love the music with it, I love the music without. There, I've decloaked. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 06, 2013, 05:50:06 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on August 06, 2013, 05:22:16 AM
+1

I feel that many times the harpsichord adds an interesting "propulsive" element to the music, a very enjoyable sense of urgency. :)

If Haydn needed a harpsichord to propel his music, then he was a piss poor orchestrator. But we know he wasn't, so... No need for redundancy. His scores don't need it. 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 06, 2013, 06:06:45 AM

Does Andante sostenuto require propulsion? Just curious ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on August 06, 2013, 10:20:40 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on August 06, 2013, 06:06:45 AM
Does Andante sostenuto require propulsion? Just curious ;)

It just must be sostenuto propulsion.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 06, 2013, 06:47:51 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 06, 2013, 05:33:08 AM
I'm bi. I love the music with it, I love the music without. There, I've decloaked. :)

8)

No doubt it's my own position too.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 06, 2013, 06:53:39 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on August 06, 2013, 06:06:45 AM
Does Andante sostenuto require propulsion? Just curious ;)

Andante, walking, propulsion... I got it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 06, 2013, 06:54:58 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 06, 2013, 05:50:06 AM
If Haydn needed a harpsichord to propel his music, then he was a piss poor orchestrator. But we know he wasn't, so... No need for redundancy. His scores don't need it. 8)

Sarge

Yes, that's totally true, if you think that all the music is in the score, without any room for implicit performance practices.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on August 08, 2013, 03:50:10 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 05, 2013, 04:59:36 PM
This arrived today. I have been working at expanding my collections of performances of Haydn's songs, an under-appreciated segment of his output. Too bad really, he was an excellent composer for the voice.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSongsBottBuryTanPleeth_zps211acdd1.jpg)

This is the first disk I have heard by Catherine Bott, although the Meridian liner notes claim her to be a highly acclaimed performer. Her voice is excellent, and especially well-suited for songs rather than opera. The players are all well-known and with good reason, shown here. The Scottish songs are all from the edition of Napier (1792-95) rather than the later versions that Haydn did for Thompson and Whyte. Glad I finally picked this one up, plus got a great price from importCDs that even included free postage (off eBay)!

8)

Awesome! I've never listened to Haydn's song collections, but now that I have the Brilliant box I can, and I will soon. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 08, 2013, 04:09:12 PM

Quote from: Leo K. on August 08, 2013, 03:50:10 PM
Awesome! I've never listened to Haydn's song collections, but now that I have the Brilliant box I can, and I will soon. :)

The Big Box has the classic standard set of Elly Ameling and Jörg Demus. The do a superb job throughout;

[asin]B001QBC2PI[/asin]

You can't go wrong with this one. I only duplicated it because... well, that's what I do! :) The Scottish songs in the Big Box are also excellent. That was a great acquisition. Everyone should have it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kyjo on August 09, 2013, 07:36:27 PM

I'd like to start exploring Haydn's music more in-depth than I have been. I seem to have been dismissing him (probably wrongly) over my CD-collecting years and methinks it's time I start giving this guy his due. Anyways, I've been looking into getting a complete cycle of his symphonies. I'm leaning towards the Dorati cycle on Decca, but I see there are others that have received much praise. May I ask the assistance of one of this forum's Haydn experts to guide me to the best overall cycle? A quick Amazon search reveals these:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51L3NY-n5xL._SY300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51nEOs2CjKL._SY300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Sjwim9uOL._SX300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41QTY6zBUyL._SY300_.jpg)

Also, what do members think of these sets?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/514xDO95T8L._SX300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51LpFQi-GUL._SX300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51z5eyNzJhL._SX300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Yh1Av-J4L._SY300_.jpg)

Feedback would be greatly appreciated. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on August 09, 2013, 07:51:06 PM

If it's still available on jpc, Hogwood's largely but not complete symphony cycle is my favorite. For the other sets I give thumbs up to the masses set, excellent performances. It is a contentious issue, but I think that the Kodaly set is a fine introduction to the string quartets. For the piano sonatas, have you considered Buchbinder?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on August 09, 2013, 08:17:58 PM

The first question you have to face is how PI you want to be.
I have both the Fischer and Hogwood sets, but have yet to listen to a note of either one of them. (Hogwood I got from AmazonUK.) There's also Goodman/Hanover Band, which is not complete, and only avaliable as individual issues, some of which are probably now OOP. But have you considered only starting with a subset, for instance the London Symphonies--for which I would suggest Solti and Minkowski for modern and period instruments, respectively

I have two PI sets of the piano works--Brautigam and Beghin, both of which I rate very highly--and no full set on modern piano, although I do have the series from Marc Andre Hamelin, which I like but which many people don't seem to like.

I have the Naxos concertos and masses boxes, and two definite thumbs up for them. (You may note that my preferences run decidely to PI, but the Naxos sets are at best partially PI.)

String quartets--I have the Angeles Quartet cycle, which I like but some people don't. I bought the Kodaly recording of the Op. 76 quartets early on in my collecting, and was not impressed by them, but recently acquired some more CDs from that series, and liked them much better. The Festetics are Gurn's favorite for PI, but not everyone's, and expensive. The Quatour Mosaiques have released a good deal of Haydn, but far from complete, and all of it is good. Another PI series from the London Haydn Quartet has reached Op. 33--they're doing them in more or less order, and so far have done very well.

I hope all the above was at least a little helpful.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on August 09, 2013, 08:31:01 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 09, 2013, 08:17:58 PM
I have the Naxos concertos .... definite thumb up...

Seconded!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kyjo on August 09, 2013, 08:42:46 PM

Thanks for your helpful posts, guys! :) I should have mentioned in my first post that I prefer modern instrument performances to period instrument ones. I think I'll go with Dorati in the symphonies, Hamelin in the piano sonatas and the two Naxos boxes of the concerti and masses. I'm still deciding on the SQs, though. Has anyone heard the Aeolian Quartet's recordings?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61MTlScpYRL._SY300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on August 09, 2013, 08:49:42 PM

Quote from: kyjo on August 09, 2013, 07:36:27 PM
Feedback would be greatly appreciated. :)

For that, I recommend Jimi Hendrix.

;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mirror Image on August 09, 2013, 08:51:19 PM

I'm not a big Haydn fan (or any Classical era composer), but I do enjoy many of his works. Kyle, definitely give his violin concerti a listen sometime. Of the recent Haydn acquisitions I've made, that Harnoncourt set on Harmonia Mundi is fantastic.

I'm afraid I just don't have enough interest in Haydn to do much exploring sadly, but I do find his music brings a nice contrast to my normal listening. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kyjo on August 09, 2013, 09:08:43 PM

Quote from: Mirror Image on August 09, 2013, 08:51:19 PM
I'm not a big Haydn fan (or any Classical era composer), but I do enjoy many of his works. Kyle, definitely give his violin concerti a listen sometime. Of the recent Haydn acquisitions I've made, that Harnoncourt set on Harmonia Mundi is fantastic.

I'm afraid I just don't have enough interest in Haydn to do much exploring sadly, but I do find his music brings a nice contrast to my normal listening. :)

Classical era music isn't one of my specialities either, but I really enjoy Beethoven's music most of the time. The only Mozart I find myself willingly returning to are his late works, such as Symphonies 39-41, PCs 20-27 and the Requiem. I also get much enjoyment out of his opera overtures. Pretty much everything else by Mozart leaves me cold. I tried listening to his VCs lately and I was bored to tears by the majority of the music (though I liked individual movements such as the finales of nos. 1 and 5 and the first movement of no. 3).

I'm not thrilled about exploring Haydn, but I would like to get a bigger picture of him and hopefully gain more appreciation for his music. The only work of his that I've heard repeatedly and studied is his Cello Concerto no. 1, which I really like. I'll keep that Harnoncourt set of his VCs that you mentioned in mind, but I need a break from classical era VCs after dragging myself through Mozart's! ;D I'm also considering this set:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31U12ec0O8L.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on August 09, 2013, 09:10:45 PM

Quote from: kyjo on August 09, 2013, 09:08:43 PM
I'm also considering this set:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31U12ec0O8L.jpg)

Grab it!!! It's absolutely lovely! And modern instruments.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 09, 2013, 10:17:22 PM

Quote from: kyjo on August 09, 2013, 08:42:46 PM
Thanks for your helpful posts, guys! :) I should have mentioned in my first post that I prefer modern instrument performances to period instrument ones. I think I'll go with Dorati in the symphonies, Hamelin in the piano sonatas and the two Naxos boxes of the concerti and masses. I'm still deciding on the SQs, though. Has anyone heard the Aeolian Quartet's recordings?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61MTlScpYRL._SY300_.jpg)

Can't help on that one (I think there is a thread just on the quartets somewhere), but I have the Angeles (also modern) and they are excellent. This one:
[asin]B007CW2FGG[/asin]

On the symphonies, I would tend to lean towards Fischer. He has the benefit of adopting more modern approaches to some of the movements (thinking here of the menuets) and is in excellent sound. I have doubled a number of symphonies over the years, and though I may find some are better than Fischer, his set (overall) is about as fine as one could wish. A couple things to consider as well: There is a mp3 version of the symphonies for roughly ~$25 on Amazon (where they have been reocrded to 8 CDs, which is what you would get). It could be a way to save money. They are also on the big Haydn box with 150 discs, and could be a better deal.

On the sonatas, I didn't love Hamelin. Jando on Naxos is good, but he does hum at times. I have always wanted to pick up the Brendel, but that can be a more expensive set (and is not complete).

The Naxos masses set, however, is fantastic. I believe it is mostly PI, and I generally prefer modern instrument, but it is so bright sounding and intense that it just doesn't matter. It is absolutely fantastic. It is some of my favorite Haydn (along with the trios by Trio Eisenstadt, cheaply availble for mp3 download if that is preferred to the discs, which are now OOP and rediculously expensive).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on August 09, 2013, 11:50:20 PM

I'm afraid there is no entrance to Haydn metauniverse from the great boxes as they are the infinite labyrinths (only beginning with concertos is more useless).

I would rather recommend to start with some fine complete of London Symphonies and listen to them for the couple of months.

I would say that Minkowski set is really good, but it has one great disadvantage, there is no No. 94 in it (as he changes the text in the 2nd movement). So may be you should buy two sets of London Symphonies.

(I'm Beethoven aficionado who for decades couldn't find any sense in the listening to Mozart Violin Concertos)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on August 10, 2013, 12:41:55 AM

Quote from: Mirror Image on August 09, 2013, 08:51:19 PM
Of the recent Haydn acquisitions I've made, that Harnoncourt set on Harmonia Mundi is fantastic.

Deutsche Harmonia Mundi. They are two different labels, and NH hasn't recorded for HM.

Quote from: kyjo on August 09, 2013, 09:08:43 PM
I’m not thrilled about exploring Haydn, but I would like to get a bigger picture of him and hopefully gain more appreciation for his music.

If you're interested, you can go through these threads (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg579930.html#msg579930) for some historical context.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on August 10, 2013, 08:05:39 AM

Quote from: kyjo on August 09, 2013, 08:42:46 PM
Thanks for your helpful posts, guys! :) I should have mentioned in my first post that I prefer modern instrument performances to period instrument ones. I think I'll go with Dorati in the symphonies, Hamelin in the piano sonatas and the two Naxos boxes of the concerti and masses. I'm still deciding on the SQs, though. Has anyone heard the Aeolian Quartet's recordings?

Please don't listen to Hamelin, in Haydn he is excruciatingly bad. Please reconsider Buchbinder. The Fischer cycle is very good and on modern instruments.

Since you said that you don't like period style, don't go with the Naxos box of masses (sorry that I missed that before). I think you might want to think outside the box, if you go with just the major ones like the Creation and the Nelson mass you should find some good traditional performances from well known performers like Bernstein/NYPO, Karajan/BPO etc etc

I second the Angeles Q (I forgot that it was back in print), if the price is reasonable, and you listen on speakers and not headphones.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on August 10, 2013, 08:07:46 AM

Quote from: DavidW on August 10, 2013, 08:05:39 AM
Please don't listen to Hamelin, in Haydn he is excruciatingly bad.

I am no fan of Hamelin either.

I suggest the Brendel (incomplete) set.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on August 10, 2013, 08:15:52 AM

Quote from: mszczuj on August 09, 2013, 11:50:20 PM
I'm afraid there is no entrance to Haydn metauniverse from the great boxes as they are the infinite labyrinths (only beginning with concertos is more useless).

I would rather recommend to start with some fine complete of London Symphonies and listen to them for the couple of months.

I agree. I didn't start with big box sets, and really that is a place to turn to for the fanatics after they had been one over by a few well known works. In that vein I recommend:

[asin]B0000027MF[/asin]

[asin]B00000IP5C[/asin]

[asin]B001U1LA2U[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on August 10, 2013, 08:17:26 AM

Quote from: George on August 10, 2013, 08:07:46 AM
I am no fan of Hamelin either.

I suggest the Brendel (incomplete) set.

Yes that is a good one (Brendel). :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on August 10, 2013, 08:19:09 AM

Quote from: DavidW on August 10, 2013, 08:17:26 AM
Yes that is a good one (Brendel). :)

As is the Richter you recommend!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 10, 2013, 08:34:24 AM

Quote from: kyjo on August 09, 2013, 08:42:46 PMI'm still deciding on the SQs, though. Has anyone heard the Aeolian Quartet's recordings?

Staying with just the modern A quartets ;) Angeles and Auryn are superior, both interpretively and sonically. Auryn's hasn't been boxed though. Buying individually will cost a bundle. I did it slowly over two years, piece by piece.

I like Kodaly too. Very civilized if not the last word in excitement.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 10, 2013, 08:40:28 AM

Quote from: DavidW on August 10, 2013, 08:05:39 AMPlease reconsider Buchbinder.

Yes, please do reconsider. Buchbinder is marvelous, and relatively cheap.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 10, 2013, 08:43:01 AM

Quote from: George on August 10, 2013, 08:07:46 AM
I suggest the Brendel (incomplete) set.

Every Haydn collection needs Brendel. Even Gurn's :D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 10, 2013, 09:15:32 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 01, 2013, 03:39:47 AM
Sarge and I subscribe to "News From The Shire".

And here's some breaking news from the Shire! The Hobbit Fey's new disc shipped today. I should have it Monday morning 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kyjo on August 10, 2013, 09:31:19 AM

Quote from: DavidW on August 10, 2013, 08:05:39 AM
Please don't listen to Hamelin, in Haydn he is excruciatingly bad. Please reconsider Buchbinder. The Fischer cycle is very good and on modern instruments.

Since you said that you don't like period style, don't go with the Naxos box of masses (sorry that I missed that before). I think you might want to think outside the box, if you go with just the major ones like the Creation and the Nelson mass you should find some good traditional performances from well known performers like Bernstein/NYPO, Karajan/BPO etc etc

I second the Angeles Q (I forgot that it was back in print), if the price is reasonable, and you listen on speakers and not headphones.

Thanks, David. I generally like Hamelin's playing, but I'll keep your opinion in mind. What do you guys think of these performances of Haydn's masses and oratorios?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51qwNY9N8WL._SX300_.jpg) (http://www.classicalarchives.com/images/coverart/6/9/d/f/028944851823_300.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516bBpHJZBL._SX300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61s%2Bvho7IDL._SY300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kyjo on August 10, 2013, 09:37:35 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on August 09, 2013, 10:17:22 PM
Can't help on that one (I think there is a thread just on the quartets somewhere), but I have the Angeles (also modern) and they are excellent. This one:
[asin]B007CW2FGG[/asin]

On the symphonies, I would tend to lean towards Fischer. He has the benefit of adopting more modern approaches to some of the movements (thinking here of the menuets) and is in excellent sound. I have doubled a number of symphonies over the years, and though I may find some are better than Fischer, his set (overall) is about as fine as one could wish. A couple things to consider as well: There is a mp3 version of the symphonies for roughly ~$25 on Amazon (where they have been reocrded to 8 CDs, which is what you would get). It could be a way to save money. They are also on the big Haydn box with 150 discs, and could be a better deal.

On the sonatas, I didn't love Hamelin. Jando on Naxos is good, but he does hum at times. I have always wanted to pick up the Brendel, but that can be a more expensive set (and is not complete).

The Naxos masses set, however, is fantastic. I believe it is mostly PI, and I generally prefer modern instrument, but it is so bright sounding and intense that it just doesn't matter. It is absolutely fantastic. It is some of my favorite Haydn (along with the trios by Trio Eisenstadt, cheaply availble for mp3 download if that is preferred to the discs, which are now OOP and rediculously expensive).

Thanks! I've put the Fischer set in my shopping cart. What do members think of Colin Davis' highly acclaimed performances of the London symphonies? I've also heard great things about Jochum's Haydn.

(http://cdn.7static.com/static/img/sleeveart/00/009/083/0000908348_500.jpg) (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_9LDgV0lN__U/TQJP6iHi5FI/AAAAAAAABQ4/9hXE8nrq_Kg/s1600/Haydn%2BColin%2BDavis%2B2.jpg) (http://img.abrakaba.com/000F291E-0/Eugen-Jochum-Haydn-Symphonies-Londoniennes-Coffret-5CD-.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kyjo on August 10, 2013, 09:40:21 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 10, 2013, 08:34:24 AM
Staying with just the modern A quartets ;) Angeles and Auryn are superior, both interpretively and sonically. Auryn's hasn't been boxed though. Buying individually will cost a bundle. I did it slowly over two years, piece by piece.

I like Kodaly too. Very civilized if not the last word in excitement.

Sarge

Thanks, Sarge. I've put the Angeles box in my shopping cart. I don't think I would like the Kodaly performances if they are "civilized if not the last word in excitement". I like my music played with fire! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 10, 2013, 09:44:39 AM

Quote from: kyjo on August 10, 2013, 09:40:21 AMI like my music played with fire! :D

Then really....really!...consider a few recordings by Thomas Fey (hybrid orchestra: modern strings and winds, period brass, horns and timps). Incendiary performances (too hot for some of the wimps in this thread :D ) Monkey Greg and I can recommend where to start.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kyjo on August 10, 2013, 09:58:34 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 10, 2013, 09:44:39 AM
Then really....really!...consider a few recordings by Thomas Fey (hybrid orchestra: modern strings and winds, period brass, horns and timps). Incendiary performances (too hot for some of the wimps in this thread :D ) Monkey Greg and I can recommend where to start.

Sarge

That sounds like a great combination! I hate period strings, I'm indifferent about woodwind and brass, but I absolutely love period timpani! I especially love hearing Beethoven played with a nice, crisp period timpani! Thanks so much for the recommendation!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sammy on August 10, 2013, 10:08:29 AM

This has nothing to do with recommendations. I've been listening to the Op. 20 quartets performed by the Solomon Quartet - still sounds great after all these years, especially those period string instruments.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on August 10, 2013, 10:18:07 AM

Quote from: kyjo on August 10, 2013, 09:37:35 AM
Thanks! I've put the Fischer set in my shopping cart. What do members think of Colin Davis' highly acclaimed performances of the London symphonies? I've also heard great things about Jochum's Haydn.

I like the Davis set, that was my introduction to Haydn. Even working with the RCO (an orchestra I consider more for Romantic era works), he keeps his Haydn swift and nimble.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on August 10, 2013, 10:21:10 AM

Quote from: kyjo on August 10, 2013, 09:31:19 AM
Thanks, David. I generally like Hamelin's playing, but I'll keep your opinion in mind.

I like Hamelin too, but not in Haydn.

QuoteWhat do you guys think of these performances of Haydn's masses and oratorios?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51qwNY9N8WL._SX300_.jpg) (http://www.classicalarchives.com/images/coverart/6/9/d/f/028944851823_300.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/516bBpHJZBL._SX300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61s%2Bvho7IDL._SY300_.jpg)

The first one is period style.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on August 10, 2013, 10:25:52 AM

Quote from: kyjo on August 10, 2013, 09:58:34 AM
That sounds like a great combination! I hate period strings, I'm indifferent about woodwind and brass, but I absolutely love period timpani!

I enjoy Norrington's 'London' set a lot, the one with the Stuttgart RSO. Mostly modern instruments, very clear music-making, and crisp timpani.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 10, 2013, 11:01:34 AM

Quote from: DavidW on August 10, 2013, 10:18:07 AM
I like the Davis set, that was my introduction to Haydn. Even working with the RCO (an orchestra I consider more for Romantic era works), he keeps his Haydn swift and nimble.

Same here. I still like them too.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 10, 2013, 11:18:08 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on August 10, 2013, 10:25:52 AM
I enjoy Norrington's 'London' set a lot, the one with the Stuttgart RSO.

Me too. It's the only set of Londons that make me waiver somewhat in my allegiance to Szell/Cleveland.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 10, 2013, 03:43:13 PM

Quote from: kyjo on August 10, 2013, 09:31:19 AM
What do you guys think of these performances of Haydn's masses and oratorios?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51qwNY9N8WL._SX300_.jpg)

I have three discs from Hickox's set and for me anyway they get high marks.

Harnoncourt's masses sound good too but sadly I've ventured no farther than samples. Anyone know them?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 10, 2013, 04:09:20 PM

Quote from: kyjo on August 09, 2013, 08:42:46 PM
Thanks for your helpful posts, guys! :) I should have mentioned in my first post that I prefer modern instrument performances to period instrument ones.

But, you may find that you do not, in the case of “Papa". (Personally, I find I like some performances, in either mode.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 11, 2013, 03:11:41 AM

Quote from: kyjo on August 10, 2013, 09:58:34 AM
That sounds like a great combination! I hate period strings, I'm indifferent about woodwind and brass, but I absolutely love period timpani! I especially love hearing Beethoven played with a nice, crisp period timpani! Thanks so much for the recommendation!

Start with one of these (I think Monkey Greg would agree with at least some of these recommendations). Fey's about halfway through the cycle. His performances of symphonies numbered in the 50s, 60s and 70s have been the most revelatory to me. The disc with one Paris (82), one Chunnel (88), one London (95) is also fantastic. One caveat: although his strings are modern, they do play, more or less, in a historically informed style.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/dec11/haydn707375frey.jpg)(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/dec11/Haydn6061Frey.jpg)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/dec11/haydn5354fey.jpg) (http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/dec11/haydn575965fey.jpg)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/dec11/haydn828895fey.jpg) (http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/dec11/haydn414447fey.jpg)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 11, 2013, 03:19:12 AM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on August 10, 2013, 03:43:13 PM
Harnoncourt's masses sound good too but sadly I've ventured no farther than samples. Anyone know them?

Harnoncourt's are very intense performances and, as we've discussed previously, big-boned, rugged and "manly" ;)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/harnoncourtlumberjack.jpg)

If there is a Papa in these Haydn performances, it's a papa Grizzly.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 11, 2013, 08:41:25 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 11, 2013, 03:19:12 AM
Harnoncourt's are very intense performances and, as we've discussed previously, big-boned, rugged and "manly" ;)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/harnoncourtlumberjack.jpg)

If there is a Papa in these Haydn performances, it's a papa Grizzly.

Sarge

Ha!! Couldn't ask for more succinctness! :D Thanks.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 11, 2013, 09:19:46 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on August 11, 2013, 08:50:56 AM
I am surprised no one has yet mentioned the Hogwood or Goodman recordings of the symphonies.

If you are talking about our recommendations for kyjo, it's because he said he wasn't interested in PI.

Quote from: kyjo on August 09, 2013, 08:42:46 PMI should have mentioned in my first post that I prefer modern instrument performances to period instrument ones.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on August 11, 2013, 09:26:02 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on August 11, 2013, 08:50:56 AM
I am surprised no one has yet mentioned the Hogwood or Goodman recordings of the symphonies.

Quote
Quote from: DavidW on August 09, 2013, 07:51:06 PM
If it's still available on jpc, Hogwood's largely but not complete symphony cycle is my favorite.

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 09, 2013, 08:17:58 PM
The first question you have to face is how PI you want to be.
I have both the Fischer and Hogwood sets, but have yet to listen to a note of either one of them. (Hogwood I got from AmazonUK.) There's also Goodman/Hanover Band, which is not complete, and only avaliable as individual issues, some of which are probably now OOP.

Quote
Both are on period instrument orchestras...

Quote
Quote from: kyjo on August 09, 2013, 08:42:46 PM
I should have mentioned in my first post that I prefer modern instrument performances to period instrument ones.

Quote from: kyjo on August 10, 2013, 09:58:34 AM
I hate period strings, I'm indifferent about woodwind and brass, but I absolutely love period timpani! I especially love hearing Beethoven played with a nice, crisp period timpani!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kyjo on August 11, 2013, 09:48:04 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 11, 2013, 09:19:46 AM

If you are talking about our recommendations for kyjo, it's because he said he wasn't interested in PI.

Sarge

I'm open to all suggestions, but was just saying that I generally prefer MI performances to PI ones. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 11, 2013, 09:56:49 AM

Quote from: kyjo on August 11, 2013, 09:48:04 AM
I'm open to all suggestions, but was just saying that I generally prefer MI performances to PI ones. :)

Then, yes, consider Hogwood and Goodman. Pinnock and Solomons too! ;D ;)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 12, 2013, 04:44:59 AM

Quote from: DavidW on August 10, 2013, 08:05:39 AM
Please don't listen to Hamelin, in Haydn he is excruciatingly bad.

Somehow, I like Hamelin here; but I think it may well be right not to rec him to someone just embarking on the piano solo works.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 15, 2013, 10:42:25 PM

So far I don't have any musical reason to do it, but I just wanted to post this cover here:

[asin]B00DJ5IQM2[/asin]

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 16, 2013, 04:08:40 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on August 15, 2013, 10:42:25 PM
So far I don't have any musical reason to do it, but I just wanted to post this cover here:

[asin]B00DJ5IQM2[/asin]

8)

I completely understand your sentiments, Gordo. I think it must be a counter-move to Karl's Hamelin.... ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 16, 2013, 04:11:20 AM

I always smile at the irony of that name for a musician, as глухой is Russian for deaf.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 16, 2013, 04:26:28 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on August 16, 2013, 04:11:20 AM
I always smile at the irony of that name for a musician, as глухой is Russian for deaf.

That's 'Daria'? Or 'Gloukhova'?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 16, 2013, 04:27:33 AM

Gloukhova . . . glukhoi

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 16, 2013, 04:28:02 AM

Otherwise, Darius Milhaud would have been deaf, too ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 16, 2013, 04:28:44 AM

Daria of the Deaf is something of the resonance of her name.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 16, 2013, 04:42:30 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on August 16, 2013, 04:27:33 AM
Gloukhova . . . glukhoi

Ah! Yes, well that IS ironic.

"The Deaf Piano Girl with the the "I'M Haydn's Bitch" Tattoos"

It could be a new Swedish Classic....

0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 16, 2013, 04:57:09 AM

If I were to get a tattoo (probably never happen, but...) it would be a Haydn tat.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 16, 2013, 05:14:49 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on August 16, 2013, 04:57:09 AM
If I were to get a tattoo (probably never happen, but...) it would be a Haydn tat.

I want "THE HEN" on my left arm, and "THE PHILOSOPHER" on the right.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 16, 2013, 05:15:56 AM

Ekaterina Derzhavina looks like a "good girl", but her Haydn is exceptionally well played:

[asin]B00BHEG6CO[/asin]

Full of flexibility, but without arbitrariness.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on August 16, 2013, 05:54:33 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on August 16, 2013, 04:11:20 AM
I always smile at the irony of that name for a musician, as глухой is Russian for deaf.

Weird Russian names? Another excuse to post a QI video. ;D

http://www.youtube.com/v/yq2QWK29BFg

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 16, 2013, 06:01:24 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on August 16, 2013, 05:15:56 AM
Ekaterina Derzhavina looks like a "good girl", but her Haydn is exceptionally well played:

[asin]B00BHEG6CO[/asin]

Full of flexibility, but without arbitrariness.

8)

I've always admired those traits in a lady. Too bad I don't need another modern piano cycle. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 16, 2013, 06:04:01 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on August 16, 2013, 05:54:33 AM
Weird Russian names? Another excuse to post a QI video. ;D

http://www.youtube.com/v/yq2QWK29BFg

Super, as always. Thanks, Nav... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 16, 2013, 06:21:08 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 16, 2013, 06:01:24 AM
I've always admired those traits in a lady. Too bad I don't need another modern piano cycle. :-\

8)

Yes, I know about "that train"... but $9 to get the complete set of keyboard sonatas would be a extremely well spent money. She is one of those keyboardists that understands the Classical style from inside. Naturally, it's just a friendly suggestion. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 16, 2013, 06:46:52 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on August 16, 2013, 06:21:08 AM
Yes, I know about "that train"... but $9 to get the complete set of keyboard sonatas would be a extremely well spent money. She is one of those keyboardists that understands the Classical style from inside. Naturally, it's just a friendly suggestion. :)

Well, the masses appear to like it, and that's what counts. I don't buy Haydn downloads, but I'll tuck away the link in my wish list and maybe one day it will join my favorites. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 16, 2013, 07:10:50 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 16, 2013, 06:46:52 AM
Well, the masses appear to like it, and that's what counts. I don't buy Haydn downloads, but I'll tuck away the link in my wish list and maybe one day it will join my favorites. :)

8)

I'm a bit flexible on these matters: for instance, I almost never buy Haydn music performed on modern piano; but there are some exceptions: Brendel, McCabe, Schiff and now Derzhavina, a delicate and sensible performer.

I almost never buy digital downloads (I even think I purchased one for the first time six month ago), but this time I thought it was a fine way to test Derzhavina's set. And it was; actually, last night I ordered the physical set from Amazon.es.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on August 16, 2013, 08:59:23 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 16, 2013, 06:01:24 AM
I've always admired those traits in a lady.

:laugh:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 16, 2013, 09:50:19 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on August 16, 2013, 07:10:50 AM
I'm a bit flexible on these matters: for instance, I almost never buy Haydn music performed on modern piano; but there are some exceptions: Brendel, McCabe, Schiff and now Derzhavina, a delicate and sensible performer.

I almost never buy digital downloads (I even think I purchased one for the first time six month ago), but this time I thought it was a fine way to test Derzhavina's set. And it was; actually, last night I ordered the physical set from Amazon.es.

:)

Well, I have Brendel and McCabe already, this may be a nice addition.

I judge whether the download is acceptable by the composer. Haydn and Mozart, well, physical media only there, I'm afraid. :)

8)

Quote from: George on August 16, 2013, 08:59:23 AM
:laugh:

Thank you, George. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on August 16, 2013, 01:08:47 PM

The name finally clicked in my head: Derzhavina has a well done recording of BWV 988 available on Arte Nova.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 16, 2013, 06:45:24 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 16, 2013, 09:50:19 AM
Well, I have Brendel and McCabe already, this may be a nice addition.

Wait a minute, wait a minute, Mr-that-train-is-gone:

How long have you had that Brendel?

;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 17, 2013, 02:30:14 PM

I conspired to play some hobbitish Haydn in the MFA shop this afternoon. Made a couple of my fellow clerks into believers.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 17, 2013, 02:37:13 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on August 17, 2013, 02:30:14 PM
I conspired to play some hobbitish Haydn in the MFA shop this afternoon. Made a couple of my fellow clerks into believers.

Which recordings, Karl?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 17, 2013, 03:11:35 PM

Vol. 4, N^os. 34, 39, 40 & 50.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 17, 2013, 03:28:01 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on August 17, 2013, 02:30:14 PM
I conspired to play some hobbitish Haydn in the MFA shop this afternoon. Made a couple of my fellow clerks into believers.

Excellent 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Leo K. on August 28, 2013, 02:17:02 PM

I continue to listen to the Goodman Haydn Symphony set, working my way backward. Wow, this is the BEST orchestral Haydn I've ever encountered.

I cry the cycle was not completed. The sonics, the performances, the timbre of the orchestra, I'm amazed.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 29, 2013, 09:31:12 AM

Quote from: Leo K. on August 28, 2013, 02:17:02 PM
I continue to listen to the Goodman Haydn Symphony set, working my way backward. Wow, this is the BEST orchestral Haydn I've ever

I agree. Goodman's is the best damn set of Haydn Harpsichord Concertos ever committed to disc :D ;)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 29, 2013, 11:35:51 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 29, 2013, 09:31:12 AM
I agree. Goodman's is the best damn set of Haydn Harpsichord Concertos ever committed to disc :D ;)

Sarge

Zing! ;D

It is a good set, great sounding band, and I must say I am in complete awe of their recording of 86, such a passionately driven finale. It would have been nice to hear Goodman and Band do 80 and 98, which are two that The Shire Philharmonic need to pick up on, but that's a rant I recycle too often.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on August 30, 2013, 09:29:26 AM

Quote from: Annie on August 29, 2013, 12:08:08 PM
I came by No 31 with Halstead on Spotify and I'm listening to it right now. Is this a good account of this horn concerto?

If you like it, then it's good; if you don't like it, then it's not good... ;D Whether Haydn himself would have liked it or not, that's an altogether different matter that nobody alive can settle for good... ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 30, 2013, 10:18:41 AM

Quote from: Annie on August 30, 2013, 09:41:36 AM
There should be a reason behind why I quoted, can you think of something?

as you probably know that is a PI recording, so it is possible no one wants to jump out there.... I think it's excellent, and would buy 2 copies just in case. There are probably some good MI recordings too, I am told Fey is one...

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 30, 2013, 11:01:09 AM

Quote from: Annie on August 29, 2013, 12:08:08 PM
I came by No 31 with Halstead on Spotify and I'm listening to it right now. Is this a good account of this horn concerto?

I don't know; I haven't heard it. But in general I like Goodman's Haydn so I would assume this is a decent (at the very least) performance.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 30, 2013, 11:08:23 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 30, 2013, 10:18:41 AMThere are probably some good MI recordings too, I am told Fey is one...

Not MI. Hybrid, Gurn, hybrid ;) Wilhelm Bruns plays a natural horn.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/dec11/haydn31fey.jpg)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 30, 2013, 11:13:10 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 30, 2013, 10:18:41 AM
as you probably know that is a PI recording, so it is possible no one wants to jump out there.... I think it's excellent, and would buy 2 copies just in case. There are probably some good MI recordings too, I am told Fey is one...

8)

These days Das Haus seems quite MI-oriented, indeed.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 30, 2013, 11:14:19 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on August 30, 2013, 11:11:18 AM
Yes, he does - and very raucously.

;)

Raucous is good 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 30, 2013, 11:45:40 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 30, 2013, 11:08:23 AM
Not MI. Hybrid, Gurn, hybrid ;) Wilhelm Bruns plays a natural horn.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/dec11/haydn31fey.jpg)

Sarge

Sorry, Sarge, I'm a purist in that regard. I'm not knocking Fey's deal there, since as you know I like them OK, but PI is PI and MI is MI. Hybridism in general makes me shudder. It's good for you though.... the pool, the pond..... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 30, 2013, 11:55:32 AM

Quote from: Leo K. on August 28, 2013, 02:17:02 PM
I continue to listen to the Goodman Haydn Symphony set, working my way backward. Wow, this is the BEST orchestral Haydn I've ever encountered.

I cry the cycle was not completed. The sonics, the performances, the timbre of the orchestra, I'm amazed.

Leo,
I think it's super too. The qualitative difference between Goodman and Hogwood is negligible, IMO. despite the difference in philosophy for continuo, there are merits for both of them. I have heard rumors that not everyone agrees with that, but you gotta go with what you like. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 30, 2013, 12:01:37 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 30, 2013, 11:45:40 AM
Sorry, Sarge, I'm a purist in that regard. I'm not knocking Fey's deal there, since as you know I like them OK, but PI is PI and MI is MI. Hybridism in general makes me shudder. It's good for you though.... the pool, the pond..... :)

8)

Gurn, if you can honestly hear the difference between period strings and modern strings played in a historically informed manner, you're a better man than me :D (A blind listening would be informative, I think.) I don't hear a significant difference between Goodman's band and Fey's.

It's sad, I think, that you deliberately miss some exciting Haydn playing just because you're hung up on terminology. If it's good music making, it's good music making, whether the instrument was built yesterday or 200 years ago. But fine, maintain your prejudice. I know it works for you and that's all that matters. I'm just glad I appreciate Haydn...no matter what instruments are used or when the recording was made. My bank balance isn't quite so happy ;)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on August 31, 2013, 07:07:56 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on August 30, 2013, 01:45:06 PM
Annie, you will get no strong disagreement from me with the thrust of your argument - however, as in all things the devil is in the details. While it is true that Haydn can successfully be conveyed on MI (I happen to enjoy Dorati's recordings of the symphonies) more often than not, IMO, a MI orchestra and its conductor will use exaggerated interpretative decisions, e.g. the articulation, the tempi, in a effort to put across a HIP sound.

This is my complaint with Mr. Fey.

But, sometimes, the same can be said of actual PI recordings as well.

:)

That's very interesting - can you spell it out a bit, with an example, so I can understand a bit better?

Do we have any idea what is HIP articulation and tempi for Haydn? I mean, do we have any reason to think that Fey's articulation and tempo choices aren't what Haydn would have expected.

Posting this I can't get out of my heard the unexpected articulation and tempo choices Beghin made for the F minor variations -- I posted the sound file here ages ago. I guess his choices were informed, but I don't know.

My suspicion is that we can infer pretty little about authentic articulation and tempo in Haydn -- but hopefully someone will post to show why I'm being too pessimistic.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on September 01, 2013, 05:26:33 AM

I notice that when this set is mentioned, it is always with derision.

[asin]B001QBXFTA[/asin]

Of course I had to get it. (22 discs for $40, why not?) So far I've only listened to one quartet (Op 76, No 1) but I see nothing to complain of. Performances are lively, charming and skillful, the recording is rather good (a bit over-bright, but I find the majority of string quartet recordings to bright for my taste). I'm quite happy so far, and I like it better than the limited samples I've heard of the Angeles quartet.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on September 01, 2013, 06:03:18 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on August 01, 2012, 10:57:08 PM
. . . This is the first Haydn I've gotten in 3 years! The only set I'd like something in is Op.54 (another rare set; I've got the Endellon, very good but I'd like a second opinion).

I'm a fan of the Endellions in the Opp. 54 & 74; I think you may find that the Sarge is, as well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 01, 2013, 06:24:37 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 01, 2013, 06:03:18 AMI think you may find that the Sarge is, as well.

In op.54, yes indeed. I have Julliard, Amadeus and Auryn too. I think snyprrr would like Julliard (just a guess) but I don't know if that's available on CD (I have an LP).

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on September 01, 2013, 08:16:52 AM

I like the way the Tatrai play op 54/2

http://www.youtube.com/v/TbHMXBnyi58

I'm also keen on the Lindsays in that one. The Juilliard set is very characterful -- it's not available commercially but it's on symphonyshare.

The Tatrai has become easily available again thanks to Hungaroton's excellent download site

http://www.hungarotonmusic.com/

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on September 02, 2013, 04:43:13 AM

The Ebène quartet played op 76/3 at the Verbier festival a few days ago. A recording is on the yahoo group concertarchive. Take it if you can. This a performance like no other, and a real indication of how they've come on since their Haydn CD. i've never heard the variations sound quite so . . . varied. The final movement is psychedelic, hallucinatory. They have this Kocsis like capacity to strobe light Haydn's harmonies. I really thought that I'd had enough of op 76/3 for a lifeltime, and that everything that could be done with it had been done. That was stupid. I was wrong. This Ebène performance shows that.

Many of their Verbier performances this year are exceptional - Bartok and Schubert aswell as Haydn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on September 02, 2013, 06:20:22 AM

After listening to one complete disc of the Aeolian Quartets set (Op 74 and Op 76) I am hooked on Haydn quartets, big time. I find it a striking contrast to Mozart. Haydn is overtly clever, humorous and melodic, whereas Mozart's quartets (and quintets) strike me as having beauty of a more mysterious source. I find myself listening to a passage of Mozart and thinking "this seems so simply, why does it seem so exquisitely perfect?"

In any case, this music seems important enough the I want an alternative and the Angeles set may be in my future (I have an amazon coupon in the pipeline.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 02, 2013, 07:08:54 AM

Well, according to the Hyperion website, recorded in June 2012 & released just a few months ago - the LHQ doing Op. 33 - looking forward to seeing some reviews and comments - :)

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze2/large/975456.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Itullian on September 03, 2013, 12:44:33 AM

Quote from: Scarpia on September 01, 2013, 05:26:33 AM
I notice that when this set is mentioned, it is always with derision.

[asin]B001QBXFTA[/asin]

Of course I had to get it. (22 discs for $40, why not?) So far I've only listened to one quartet (Op 76, No 1) but I see nothing to complain of. Performances are lively, charming and skillful, the recording is rather good (a bit over-bright, but I find the majority of string quartet recordings to bright for my taste). I'm quite happy so far, and I like it better than the limited samples I've heard of the Angeles quartet.

I love this set.:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on September 03, 2013, 08:36:53 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on September 02, 2013, 07:08:54 AM
Well, according to the Hyperion website, recorded in June 2012 & released just a few months ago - the LHQ doing Op. 33 - looking forward to seeing some reviews and comments - :)

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze2/large/975456.jpg)

I've played it through once. General impression is that it's the same quality as the earlier issues.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on September 03, 2013, 09:18:57 AM

Quote from: Mr. Stevens Senior on April 25, 2012, 04:54:17 PM
OK, I'll bite -- which Haydn quartets/artists would you recommend?

From "No Room to Hide - An Introduction to Haydn's String Quartets" (Listen Magazine, Winter 2012 (http://www.listenmusicmag.com/winter-12.php)) this list, arranged in chronological (more or less) order; decent overview of different performance styles:

2
Joseph Haydn
String Quartets op.1
Kodály String Quartet
(Naxos 8550398 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000013QN/seenandheard-20))

3
Joseph Haydn
String Quartets op.9
The London Haydn Quartet
(Hyperion 67611 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000VS8UEY/seenandheard-20))

4
Joseph Haydn
String Quartets op.17
Auryn Quartet
(Tacet 175 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0028LJV72/seenandheard-20))

5
Joseph Haydn
String Quartets op.20
Quatuor Mosaïques
(naïve 8802 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000DETAX/goodmusicguide-20))

6
Joseph Haydn
String Quartets op.33
Appónyi Quartet
(Ars Musici 232160 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002S3BHGI/goodmusicguide-20))

7
Joseph Haydn
String Quartets op.50
Tokyo String Quartet
(ArkivCD DG 423509 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001KW976A/goodmusicguide-20))

8
Joseph Haydn
String Quartets op.54
Sacconi Quartet
(Sacconi records 102 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002ZU8XF2/goodmusicguide-20))
(alternatively: Párkányí String Quartet, Praga 250272 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B003PN5U90/goodmusicguide-20))

9
Joseph Haydn
String Quartets op.55
Meta4 Quartet
(Hänssler 98587 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0021R51E0/goodmusicguide-20))

10
Joseph Haydn
String Quartets op.64
Quatuor Mosaïques
(naïve 8886 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000C8WXL/goodmusicguide-20) & 8875 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000063YCZ/goodmusicguide-20))

11
Joseph Haydn
String Quartets op.71 / 74
Auryn String Quartet
(Tacet 170 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001YIUFSE/goodmusicguide-20) & 169 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001QSCZ4O/goodmusicguide-20))

12
Joseph Haydn
String Quartets op.76
Amadeus Quartet
(DG 471762 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0007UXXOS/goodmusicguide-20))

13
Joseph Haydn
String Quartets op.77, 103
Takács Quartet
(Eloquence 4762575 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0000C8WXL/goodmusicguide-20))

14 (Mix'n'match)
Joseph Haydn
String Quartets op.64/4, 74/3, 76/5
Minetti Quartet
(Hänssler 98589 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001TD1XPI/seenandheard-20))

Quatuor Mosaïques is a particular favorite of mine... all their Haydn recordings are worth snapping up when you come across them. http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2004/09/dip-your-ears-no-11.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2004/09/dip-your-ears-no-11.html)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 03, 2013, 09:56:20 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on September 03, 2013, 09:18:57 AMFrom "No Room to Hide - An Introduction to Haydn's String Quartets"

My favorites list looks almost exactly like yours ??? Differences in bold.

String Quartets op.1
Kodály String Quartet

String Quartets op.9
The London Haydn Quartet

String Quartets op.17
Auryn Quartet

String Quartets op.20
Quatuor Mosaïques

String Quartets op.33
Appónyi Quartet

String Quartets op.50
Tokyo String Quartet

String Quartets op.54
Endellion Quartet

String Quartets op.55
Meta4 Quartet

String Quartets op.64
Quatuor Mosaïques

String Quartets op.71 / 74
Auryn String Quartet

String Quartets op.76
Amadeus Quartet

String Quartets op.77
Kodaly Quartet

String Quartets op.42 / 103
The Lindsays

(Mix'n'match)
String Quartets op.64/5, op.77/1, op.76/2 "Fifths"
Jerusalem Quartet

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 13, 2013, 07:20:03 PM

ArkivMusic is running a weekend special of Hogwood's Haydn Cycle, $99

Click here for details (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=943763)...and if anyone was looking for a late birthday present for me, this would work. ;)

Also, 11 days since the last post in the Haus? This forum should be ashamed of itself. >:D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on September 13, 2013, 07:25:30 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 13, 2013, 07:20:03 PM
ArkivMusic is running a weekend special of Hogwood's Haydn Cycle, $99

Click here for details (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=943763)...and if anyone was looking for a late birthday present for me, this would work. ;)

when was your b-day? Mine was sept 2

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 13, 2013, 07:32:25 PM

Quote from: George on September 13, 2013, 07:25:30 PM
when was your b-day? Mine was sept 2

Oh, June 4th, veeeeerrrrry late birthday gift. :)

But Happy Birthday, George! 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on September 13, 2013, 07:46:11 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 13, 2013, 07:32:25 PM
Oh, June 4th, veeeeerrrrry late birthday gift. :)

Sneaky! ;)

QuoteBut Happy Birthday, George! 8)

Thanks!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on September 14, 2013, 06:40:16 PM

Don't rush over to Arkiv. AmazonUK offers it at 49.52 GBP, before deducting VAT and adding shipping/handling. That's about $20 less, by my off the cuff calculation. They currently list 6 in stock. There's no indication that they have the problem that appeared on AmazonUS.

I am, btw, at this moment listening to CDs 11 and 12 of that box, for which (to give a comparison) I paid 37.06 GBP including shipping after VAT was deducted. So AmazonUK's price has actually gone up since June, when I ordered it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on September 15, 2013, 09:29:27 AM

The set is awesome btw. And worth buying.

I'm thinking of buying the Dorati cycle, but it's sad that I missed the time in which it was only $50. :(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on September 15, 2013, 08:04:45 PM

Some critic said:

Quotethe performances themselves stand as the dullest available. Hogwood's approach to this music lacks any vestige of emotional involvement. He's completely mechanical. Slow movements, with their vibrato-less strings and thin tone sound completely soulless, while the quicker ones move with a choppy, routine vigor. - See more at: http://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-4908/?search=1#sthash.k5mVKtxY.dpuf

OK, sorry, I couldn't resist leaving a turd in the punchbowl. Also the review of the set appeared as an "Insider Only" item, I'm guessing with a title like "Haydn from Hell" or something (I'm not going to spend $50 on the site just to read that one.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on September 15, 2013, 10:29:09 PM

Quote from: Daverz on September 15, 2013, 08:04:45 PM
Some critic said:

OK, sorry, I couldn't resist leaving a turd in the punchbowl. Also the review of the set appeared as an "Insider Only" item, I'm guessing with a title like "Haydn from Hell" or something (I'm not going to spend $50 on the site just to read that one.)

The 'X from hell' is a series, I think. Seriously. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on September 16, 2013, 12:09:53 AM

Quote from: Daverz on September 15, 2013, 08:04:45 PM
Some critic said:

OK, sorry, I couldn't resist leaving a turd in the punchbowl. Also the review of the set appeared as an "Insider Only" item, I'm guessing with a title like "Haydn from Hell" or something (I'm not going to spend $50 on the site just to read that one.)

Should have guessed who it would be...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 16, 2013, 03:57:11 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on September 15, 2013, 10:29:09 PM
The 'X from hell' is a series, I think. Seriously. ;D

CD from Hell. Yes, it's a recurring title (full of fun-to-read reviews that one can scream at or nod in agreement with). There is also Under the Radar, reviewing what Huwitzer considers to be great but obscure recordings. He's pointed out some gems.

The review of Hogwood's big box (with all the recordings he managed to record before the cycle was axed) begins

"Here's one instance where the collapse of the major labels turned out to be a blessing in disguise. It really didn't take 81 symphonies for Hogwood to prove that his Haydn cycle was an anemic bore"

and ends

"Hogwood actually recorded a sensational performance of Haydn's The Creation, revealing that it didn't have to be this way, and there's no questioning Hogwood's purely scholarly devotion. What's missing, though, is plain, simple musicianship and common sense. You don't need to spend a pile of money to hear Hogwood prove that to you, 81 times."

Hurwitz mentions Dorati as an the example of a Haydn conductor with musicianship and common sense.

On the positive side, the big box gets a higher grade than volume 10: 4/9 ;D

In other Insider reviews he rates Pinnock's Mozart box (I0/10) higher than Hogwood's (6/9).

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on September 16, 2013, 04:00:14 AM

The FCB choir will sing "The Heavens Are Telling" (not just the tune, which has generally been co-opted for hymnody, but "Papa's" whole number from The Creation . . . either 6 or 13 October. And (reminder) the service streams live on the WERS website.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on September 16, 2013, 04:02:27 AM

Dadfrazzanabit, another parenthesis left unclosed . . . .)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 16, 2013, 06:50:55 AM

Quote from: Daverz on September 15, 2013, 08:04:45 PM
Some critic said:

OK, sorry, I couldn't resist leaving a turd in the punchbowl. Also the review of the set appeared as an "Insider Only" item, I'm guessing with a title like "Haydn from Hell" or something (I'm not going to spend $50 on the site just to read that one.)

LOL! ;D - reminds me of a scene from Caddyshack! Now, the critic quoted was a perennial favorite on the forum, i.e. David Hurwitz - I've not checked out other reviews for the Hogwood performances; I would like another 'complete' set of Papa's Symphonies but just have the Fischer (of course, more of the later ones in the 80s & the Londons). I've debated on the Dorati for years, but the prices for all of the usual candidates have escalated - at the moment, I have plenty to entertain me, so will wait a while - Dave :)

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_3TJBkoZeMVU/R7YYVeZ2hUI/AAAAAAAABc0/C42ysc5srrk/s320/cs_190.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on September 16, 2013, 07:04:38 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on September 16, 2013, 06:50:55 AM
I would like another 'complete' set of Papa's Symphonies but just have the Fischer (of course, more of the later ones in the 80s & the Londons). I've debated on the Dorati for years, but the prices for all of the usual candidates have escalated - at the moment, I have plenty to entertain me, so will wait a while - Dave :)

Hi Dave. I don't know if you spotted this post (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21492.msg739543.html#msg739543) in the Listening thread; the set from Davies is available for ~ $30, shipped. Scrolling down that page, you can read what some of the other members have to say about it. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 16, 2013, 07:13:57 AM

Quote from: Annie on September 16, 2013, 04:09:07 AM
James Webster or not, that is the question

...and now that I see it, commenting on Hogwood with reference to Dorati is comical. Scholarly knowledge about Haydn has improved a lot in the last 40 years(Dorati's time). Being in contrast, even Goodman :D would make a better reference, keyboard concerto no keyboard concerto vs keyboard concerto, dynamic vs less dynamic

He does all that. He compares Hogwood to, not Goodman, but Pinnock (but I can't post the entire review: that's against forum policy and a copyright violation). Only after several paragraphs discussing authentic practice and harpsichord vs no continuo does he brings Dorati into the argument:

"Finally, consider Antal Dorati's older performance with the Philharmonia Hungarica. You get trumpets and timpani, [Hogwood eschews the instruments in this symphony] no continuo, and violins that can actually sustain a melody for the length of the phrase[...]And let's hear none of that BS about vibrato making the music sound "thick" and overly sentimental. This is simply attractive violin tone; there's nothing to "thicken." It's just a tune that needs to be sustained in a typical, cantabile manner, and that's exactly what Dorati and his players offer."

Disclaimer: Any views or opinions presented in the above paragraph are solely those of Classics Today and do not necessarily represent those of the poster. :D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on September 16, 2013, 07:33:39 AM

Quote from: Annie on September 16, 2013, 07:27:37 AM
Is giving a link prohibited too?

No, it's not; but Sarge is probably aware that no-one else in this forum is *ahem* crazy enough to subscribe to the Insider. :D ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on September 16, 2013, 07:35:42 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on September 16, 2013, 07:31:10 AM
My main complaint is that we do not have a complete cycle of the Haydn symphonies performed on period instruments.

:)

The question arises: is anyone out there who is young, competent and eager enough to complete one, say, in the next 10-15 years?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on September 16, 2013, 07:46:25 AM

Quote from: Annie on September 16, 2013, 07:43:26 AM
Ah, so he is talking about a review on Insider now. But where did the pinnock set come from? Wasn't he mentioning Pinnock's Mozart set? If so, where did the Dorati set come from? Is it Pinnock's Mozart vs Hogwood's Haydn? 8)

Pinnock's M. vs. Hogwood's M. and therefore, logically, to Hogwood's H. as well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on September 16, 2013, 07:59:21 AM

Quote from: Annie on September 16, 2013, 07:55:53 AM
Not necessarily.

Oh, I was simply distilling the thoughts of The Great Howitzer. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 16, 2013, 08:01:44 AM

The London Haydn Quartet's disc of Op.33 made it in Hurwitzer's "CD from Hell" series.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on September 16, 2013, 08:02:56 AM

Ah, that Hurwitz. Nice work if you can get it . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on September 16, 2013, 09:07:24 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on September 16, 2013, 07:04:38 AM
Hi Dave. I don't know if you spotted this post (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21492.msg739543.html#msg739543) in the Listening thread; the set from Davies is available for ~ $30, shipped. Scrolling down that page, you can read what some of the other members have to say about it. :)

Ordered! Thank you that is a steal!!!!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on September 16, 2013, 09:17:47 AM

Quote from: DavidW on September 16, 2013, 09:07:24 AM
Ordered! Thank you that is a steal!!!!!

You'll have to thank Tony. ;D Soon after I posted this, 'Le Bons...' blog also reported similar prices at the Amazons of the Continent. Over stock?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on September 16, 2013, 09:22:26 AM

Wicked cheap!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 16, 2013, 11:18:54 AM

Quote from: Annie on September 16, 2013, 07:27:37 AM
You lost me. Is giving a link prohibited too?

The link would be useless to anyone who doesn't have an Classics Today Insider subscription. If you have a subscription, you don't need a link: a search on the site will bring up the Hogwood review quickly enough.

Quote from: Annie on September 16, 2013, 07:27:37 AM
Are you bad mouthing Dorati?? That's a no no ;D

Not at all. Why would you think that? And Hurwitz likes him too.

Quote from: Annie on September 16, 2013, 07:27:37 AM
are you pro or against Hogwood??? :D

Irrelevant. My posts weren't about my preferences but were replies to posts from Daverz and Opus about Hurwitz.

Quote from: Annie on September 16, 2013, 07:27:37 AM
Is Pinnock the best???

Hurwitz isn't thrilled by either Hogwood or Pinnock's Haydn (but he does think highly, very highly of Pinnock's Mozart box). Dorati he likes.

Quote from: Annie on September 16, 2013, 07:27:37 AM
Who the hell is Howitzer?

The Hurwitzer (with a u) is my pun and nickname for David Hurwitz of Classics Today. I gave him that name for his offensive (in the military sense) review style. Reminds me of an artillery barrage 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on September 16, 2013, 11:21:45 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 16, 2013, 11:18:54 AM
Hurwitz isn't thrilled by either Hogwood or Pinnock's Haydn (but he does think highly, very highly of Pinnock's Mozart box). Dorati he likes.

Sarge

I totally forgot that Pinnock has recorded a chunk of Haydn too. :-[

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 16, 2013, 11:30:47 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on September 16, 2013, 07:33:39 AM
No, it's not; but Sarge is probably aware that no-one else in this forum is *ahem* crazy enough to subscribe to the Insider. :D ;)

Yes, exactly. Although the voices in my head sometimes get confusing, I did hear that reason from one of my brain's co-hosts.

Quote from: Opus106 on September 16, 2013, 11:21:45 AM
I totally forgot that Pinnock has recorded a chunk of Haydn too. :-[

A great set of the Sturm und Drang Symphonies, plus 6/7/8.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 16, 2013, 04:14:45 PM

Quote from: Opus106 on September 16, 2013, 07:04:38 AM
Hi Dave. I don't know if you spotted this post (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21492.msg739543.html#msg739543) in the Listening thread; the set from Davies is available for ~ $30, shipped. Scrolling down that page, you can read what some of the other members have to say about it. :)

Hi Nav... - yes I've seen that Davies offering on those posts and have reviewed ratings on Amazon and elsewhere - unfortunately, I have some kind of 'allergy' to applause - ;D And to think of loud applause after over 100 performances simply is not my way - so, the reason for a no consideration to that release. BUT, there will be others - thanks for the reference - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 16, 2013, 05:48:34 PM

I need a new Op.64 SQ recording. I have the Buchberger Quartet Op.64 1-6, and am interested in the Mosaiques Quartet on Naive, but the cheapest I can find it right now is $13 for No.1, 3 and 6 and $33 for No.2, 4 and 5. which would be almost $50 for the complete set. I mainly want the Quartet for Strings in B minor, Op. 64 no 2/H 3 no 68 so if there was a single disc with this one I would consider it.

Thanks, Haus-mates, for any recs! 8) :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 16, 2013, 06:42:01 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 16, 2013, 05:48:34 PM
I need a new Op.64 SQ recording. I have the Buchberger Quartet Op.64 1-6, and am interested in the Mosaiques Quartet on Naive, but the cheapest I can find it right now is $13 for No.1, 3 and 6 and $33 for No.2, 4 and 5. which would be almost $50 for the complete set. I mainly want the Quartet for Strings in B minor, Op. 64 no 2/H 3 no 68 so if there was a single disc with this one I would consider it.

Thanks, Haus-mates, for any recs! 8) :)

The Mosaiques are glorious in the op.64, really daring and not afraid to draw out all the quirky pirouettes in the music. Top notch stuff.

There's an upcoming Haydn/Mosaiques reissue (box set) that someone linked to somewhere on the board but all I can find is the Amazon France (http://www.amazon.fr/Haydn-Quatuor-Mosaiques/dp/B00EO7XPPC/ref=pd_rhf_gw_p_t_1_QGR7) issue.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on September 16, 2013, 09:33:06 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 16, 2013, 05:48:34 PM
I need a new Op.64 SQ recording. I have the Buchberger Quartet Op.64 1-6, and am interested in the Mosaiques Quartet on Naive, but the cheapest I can find it right now is $13 for No.1, 3 and 6 and $33 for No.2, 4 and 5. which would be almost $50 for the complete set. I mainly want the Quartet for Strings in B minor, Op. 64 no 2/H 3 no 68 so if there was a single disc with this one I would consider it.

Thanks, Haus-mates, for any recs! 8) :)

The best op64/2s aren't on period instruments, though Festetics aren't bad. My own favourite is the Caspar da Salo Quartet

I'll just mention in passing that one of my all time favourite Haydn records is op 64 /6 played by Pro Arte.

If it's any help I can upload the out of print ones, including Mosaiques, to symphonyshare.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on September 17, 2013, 01:46:29 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 16, 2013, 05:48:34 PM
I need a new Op.64 SQ recording. I have the Buchberger Quartet Op.64 1-6, and am interested in the Mosaiques Quartet on Naive, but the cheapest I can find it right now is $13 for No.1, 3 and 6 and $33 for No.2, 4 and 5. which would be almost $50 for the complete set. I mainly want the Quartet for Strings in B minor, Op. 64 no 2/H 3 no 68 so if there was a single disc with this one I would consider it.

Thanks, Haus-mates, for any recs! 8) :)

Wait for the complete Mosaiques Box bound to come out soon... and invest the money you save on not indulging now then.

Meanwhile (and decidedly not HIP but musical and satisfying, even if I have some quibbles with them here and there) you might consider The Lindsays (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005OVYS/goodmusicguide-20).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 17, 2013, 03:45:53 AM

Thanks for the recs, DD, Mand, Jens, I will research the ones listed.
I have Mosaiques 20,33 and 77 so I certainly believe their 64 is just as marvelous.
:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on September 17, 2013, 04:03:14 AM

Unless one prefers the QM approach to the music.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on September 17, 2013, 04:11:29 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 17, 2013, 04:03:14 AM
Unless one prefers the QM approach to the music.

Ah, the QM approach to music, as pioneered by Albert Einstein & Richard Feynman.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on September 17, 2013, 04:26:15 AM

Quote from: Annie on September 17, 2013, 04:06:27 AM
what good approach or even music would do if you can not hear it properly

How is the balance a benefit if you care not for the performance?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on September 17, 2013, 06:07:06 AM

Quote from: North Star on September 17, 2013, 04:11:29 AM
Ah, the QM approach to music, as pioneered by Albert Einstein & Richard Feynman.

Of course, the elder physicist later went on to state that God does not play Sound Engineer with the music.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on September 17, 2013, 07:32:26 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on September 17, 2013, 01:46:29 AM
Wait for the complete Mosaiques Box bound to come out soon... and invest the money you save on not indulging now then.

When!? :)

Also will there be an Auryn Quartet box set?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on September 17, 2013, 07:34:53 AM

Quote from: Annie on September 17, 2013, 04:02:12 AM
QM recording is dominated by the close 1st violin and cello sounds distant.

Not really, not even an issue on headphones.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 17, 2013, 08:23:09 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on September 17, 2013, 01:46:29 AM
Wait for the complete Mosaiques Box bound to come out soon... and invest the money you save on not indulging now then.

Are we talking about a single box of all the Mosaiques's recordings? The French Amazon link I posted above is a 10 disc box of Haydn only.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 17, 2013, 08:35:48 AM

Quote from: Annie on September 17, 2013, 04:02:12 AM
QM recording is dominated by the close 1st violin and cello sounds distant. The Lindsays are a better choice here

That's not the way I hear the QM. The balances are ideal, at least on my system, which may or may not play a part in this.

In fact, speaking of the Lindsays, I can't think of another ensemble where the first violin is MORE prominent! It's practically their signature sound, or at least is a known trait of theirs. Generally I avoid them because of this, just too squawky for my taste.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on September 17, 2013, 08:51:03 AM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 17, 2013, 08:35:48 AM
That's not the way I hear the QM. The balances are ideal, at least on my system, which may or may not play a part in this.

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 17, 2013, 08:23:09 AM
Are we talking about a single box of all the Mosaiques's recordings? The French Amazon link I posted above is a 10 disc box of Haydn only.

Just the Haydn, I assume (http://www.amazon.fr/Haydn-Quatuor-Mosaiques/dp/B00EO7XPPC)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on September 17, 2013, 09:01:12 AM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 17, 2013, 08:23:09 AM
Are we talking about a single box of all the Mosaiques's recordings? The French Amazon link I posted above is a 10 disc box of Haydn only.

I'd be more interested in a collection of the Mozart recordings, which went out of print even before the Haydn recordings did. They went to the trouble of making the recordings, and they can't be bothered to sell them? Idiotic!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on September 17, 2013, 09:14:41 AM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 17, 2013, 08:35:48 AM
That's not the way I hear the QM. The balances are ideal, at least on my system, which may or may not play a part in this.

I've heard those recordings on various headphones and on speakers and have heard no balance problems. Don't think professional reviews mentioned it either. We should see what Scarpia thinks, he's highly allergic to these types of issues. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on September 17, 2013, 09:22:22 AM

Quote from: DavidW on September 17, 2013, 09:14:41 AM
I've heard those recordings on various headphones and on speakers and have heard no balance problems. Don't think professional reviews mentioned it either. We should see what Scarpia thinks, he's highly allergic to these types of issues. :)

I had the Mozart QM recordings in a big box, for some reason decided I did not like them (can't remember why) sold them and now they are all out-of-print and impossible to get except at absurd prices. Thanks Naive! >:(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 17, 2013, 09:22:42 AM

Quote from: Scarpia on September 17, 2013, 09:01:12 AM
I'd be more interested in a collection of the Mozart recordings, which went out of print even before the Haydn recordings did. They went to the trouble of making the recordings, and they can't be bothered to sell them? Idiotic!

Yeah, I'm wondering if there won't be a Mozart box coming in the future as well. But they sure don't make it easy to predict... :-X

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on September 17, 2013, 09:51:36 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on September 17, 2013, 04:03:14 AM
Unless one prefers the QM approach to the music.

The problem with interpreting music of the Classical Era is that the every possible approach to the music is wrong as what is needed here is the individual approach to the each phrase.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on September 17, 2013, 10:58:16 AM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 17, 2013, 08:23:09 AM
Are we talking about a single box of all the Mosaiques's recordings? The French Amazon link I posted above is a 10 disc box of Haydn only.

That's what I meant. (I hate catch-all boxes anyway... I'd not be excited about that. Not that I need the all-Haydn box of the Mosaiques... but it feels good to promote it, being all-and-only Haydn.)

Quote from: Scarpia on September 17, 2013, 09:01:12 AM
I'd be more interested in a collection of the Mozart recordings, which went out of print even before the Haydn recordings did. They went to the trouble of making the recordings, and they can't be bothered to sell them? Idiotic!

They're Mozart should be re-issued as well, true. But as per selling... that's not how the market works, I'm afraid. It costs a lot of money to keep things in print, beyond the first edition... and every subsequent edition takes money and effort and risk to re-issue. In their case, at least, it seems all feasible, because the recordings are attractive and they should be able to move a couple hundred if not even very low four digit numbres of copies.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on September 17, 2013, 11:22:29 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on September 17, 2013, 10:58:16 AMThey're Mozart should be re-issued as well, true. But as per selling... that's not how the market works, I'm afraid. It costs a lot of money to keep things in print, beyond the first edition... and every subsequent edition takes money and effort and risk to re-issue. In their case, at least, it seems all feasible, because the recordings are attractive and they should be able to move a couple hundred if not even very low four digit numbres of copies.

It seems to me you've got the economics backwards. There is a large fixed cost to make the recording. Then pressing more discs is just a small incremental cost ($0.50 per disc, maybe close to a buck when you include the booklet and jewel case). Of course, if they pressed more and absolutely no one bought them they would loose money. But given that used copies of these discs are hard to find, there must be some demand for them.

Of course, we don't get to see their sales figures. Maybe they pressed 1,000, sold 50 after 5 years and sent the rest to the grinder. There is an effect where recordings that are impossible to get acquire a cult following and a legendary status. Mozart string quartets are some of my favorite music in the universe and I couldn't bring myself to listen to more than one movement of the QM set at a time. Still, the unattainability of the set is now making me feel that I need to get it. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on September 17, 2013, 09:30:39 PM

Quote from: Scarpia on September 17, 2013, 11:22:29 AM
It seems to me you've got the economics backwards. There is a large fixed cost to make the recording. Then pressing more discs is just a small incremental cost ($0.50 per disc, maybe close to a buck when you include the booklet and jewel case). Of course, if they pressed more and absolutely no one bought them they would loose money. But given that used copies of these discs are hard to find, there must be some demand for them.

Of course, we don't get to see their sales figures. Maybe they pressed 1,000, sold 50 after 5 years and sent the rest to the grinder. There is an effect where recordings that are impossible to get acquire a cult following and a legendary status. Mozart string quartets are some of my favorite music in the universe and I couldn't bring myself to listen to more than one movement of the QM set at a time. Still, the unattainability of the set is now making me feel that I need to get it. :)

Isn't their Mozart on youtube? I mean, it won't take much just to go to youtube and confirm or deny your previous judgement.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on September 18, 2013, 01:13:23 PM

Quote from: Scarpia on September 17, 2013, 11:22:29 AM
It seems to me you've got the economics backwards.

No, I don't think that I have my economics backwards... at least I'd like to think that I know a thing or two about how the recording industry works.

Limited runs sell out... and then it needs a certain minimum demand to justify a second pressing, especially for box sets. There are ways to keep the cost down (using jewel cases with the original releases in a flimsy slip-box --- as opposed to those rather expensive whatshammacallit-paper-wallet cases... but it still costs money that, at low retail prices, is hard to get back if you don't know if you'll sell 100 copies or 1000. Although I'd like to think that Naive knows that re-issuing the Mosaiques should be viable.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on September 18, 2013, 07:31:31 PM

Quote from: jlaurson on September 18, 2013, 01:13:23 PM
No, I don't think that I have my economics backwards... at least I'd like to think that I know a thing or two about how the recording industry works.

Limited runs sell out... and then it needs a certain minimum demand to justify a second pressing, especially for box sets. There are ways to keep the cost down (using jewel cases with the original releases in a flimsy slip-box --- as opposed to those rather expensive whatshammacallit-paper-wallet cases... but it still costs money that, at low retail prices, is hard to get back if you don't know if you'll sell 100 copies or 1000. Although I'd like to think that Naive knows that re-issuing the Mosaiques should be viable.

It seems to me that the economics are not complex For the first release they recorded the music, which means the rented a performance space or studio, paid a highly skilled producer/engineer who owns or rented rather expensive equipment to record and edit the recording. Add to that the fee paid to the musicians themselves. Then they paid for a glass master to be made. That would run into several thousand dollars. After that it is 50 cents per CD if they do a run of at least several hundred, maybe a buck including a jewel case and booklet. If their stock runs out, the up-front costs are already paid and all they have to do is spend another $1 to produce each CD that they subsequently sell for $10.

If the first run really sold out, it is hard to see why it wouldn't be worth their while to pay the very small incremental cost to press more discs from the existing glass master. Virtually every other small classical record label manages to keep its recordings in the catalog more or less indefinitely. However, it is also possible they failed to sell their initial pressing, were losing money on the storage cost, and had to pay someone to haul the remaining stock of Quatuor Mosaïques recordings away and bury them in a landfill. That is entirely possible, and in that case there would be no incentive to press more.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on September 18, 2013, 09:46:31 PM

Quote from: Scarpia on September 18, 2013, 07:31:31 PM
If the first run really sold out, it is hard to see why it wouldn't be worth their while to pay the very small incremental cost to press more discs from the existing glass master. Virtually every other small classical record label manages to keep its recordings in the catalog more or less indefinitely. However, it is also possible they failed to sell their initial pressing, were losing money on the storage cost, and had to pay someone to haul the remaining stock of Quatuor Mosaïques recordings away and bury them in a landfill. That is entirely possible, and in that case there would be no incentive to press more.

I'm also doubting that economics is the issue here. If Brilliant can do reissues at give-away prices, so could Naïve.
Even at a higher price level - mid price would be fine by me. But they have just the worst back catalogue policy ever...

Still, I'm grateful for the QM haydn set. :)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on September 18, 2013, 09:51:42 PM

Quote from: Que on September 18, 2013, 09:46:31 PM
I'm also doubting that economics is the issue here. If Brilliant can do reissues at give-away prices, so could Naïve.

Q

I don't think that's a valid comparison, as Brilliant is not involved in making new recordings (at least not as much as Naïve is, even considering their recent foray in creating original recordings). :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on September 18, 2013, 10:20:36 PM

Quote from: Opus106 on September 18, 2013, 09:51:42 PM
I don't think that's a valid comparison, as Brilliant is not involved in making new recordings.

But wouldn't a company that reissues its own recordings be at least in an equal position, when those recordings already have had their initial run and no separate fee for acquiring the rights is necessary?

My guess is that people at Brilliant, Out-there and Newton are just better at economics... 8) I would beg Naïve to license their back catalogue to them... :D

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 18, 2013, 10:21:17 PM

Quote from: Que on September 18, 2013, 09:46:31 PM
I'm also doubting that economics is the issue here. If Brilliant can do reissues at give-away prices, so could Naïve.
Even at a higher price level - mid price would be fine by me. But they have just the worst back catalogue policy ever...

Agreed, especially as it wasn't even Naïve who originally recorded a large portion of the QM's Haydn. It was Astrée (parent company Auvidis). Naïve simply inherited Auvidis's catalogue after they bought them out so a large part of the process had already been completed. So just get with the reissuing already! (Especially the Arditti's Schoenberg quartets).

QuoteStill, I'm grateful for the QM haydn set. :)

I have them all already but another lease on life is definitely welcome.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on September 18, 2013, 10:26:05 PM

Quote from: Que on September 18, 2013, 10:20:36 PM
But wouldn't a company that reissues its own recordings be at least in an equal position, when those recordings already have had their initial run and no separate fee for acquiring the rights is necessary?

Q

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 18, 2013, 10:21:17 PM
Agreed, especially as it wasn't even Naïve who originally recorded a large portion of the QM's Haydn. It was Astrée (parent company Auvidis). Naïve simply inherited Auvidis's catalogue after they bought them out so a large part of the process had already been completed.

I hadn't realised that these were acquired. This probably puts them on an equal footing, more or less.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on September 18, 2013, 10:27:05 PM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 18, 2013, 10:21:17 PM
I have them all already but another lease on life is definitely welcome.

I occupied myself with the Festetics Qt first.. (another availability nightmare BTW till the ARCANA back catalogue was reissued).

So, now quite ready for the QM. :)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on September 19, 2013, 02:43:02 AM

Quote from: Scarpia on September 18, 2013, 07:31:31 PM
It seems to me that the economics are not complex For the first release they recorded the music, which means the rented a performance space or studio, paid a highly skilled producer/engineer who owns or rented rather expensive equipment to record and edit the recording. Add to that the fee paid to the musicians themselves. Then they paid for a glass master to be made. That would run into several thousand dollars. After that it is 50 cents per CD if they do a run of at least several hundred, maybe a buck including a jewel case and booklet. If their stock runs out, the up-front costs are already paid and all they have to do is spend another $1 to produce each CD that they subsequently sell for $10.

If the first run really sold out, it is hard to see why it wouldn't be worth their while to pay the very small incremental cost to press more discs from the existing glass master. Virtually every other small classical record label manages to keep its recordings in the catalog more or less indefinitely. However, it is also possible they failed to sell their initial pressing, were losing money on the storage cost, and had to pay someone to haul the remaining stock of Quatuor Mosaïques recordings away and bury them in a landfill. That is entirely possible, and in that case there would be no incentive to press more.

I think you rather underestimate the cost of re-issuing CDs (50 ct per CD isn't it---given the hike in raw material prices, the raw CD alone costs that much), and even a reasonable cost, depending on how you re-issue, you need to print a whole lot (again, depends on the effort and presentation, but starting at a run of 1000+ --- which is already more than most CDs will ever sell in their first lifetime) to make it viable. And then we don't know what contractual obligations there may be to the performers and producers. Nowadays, performers wave rights and pay for the production... but I don't think that's how the Mosaiques produced their Mozart CDs.

Some producers---can't speak for naive, admittedly---then like to wait to see how the second hand market develops in order to feel reassured that they can throw a new edition on the market without too much risk involved. And FYI: A small classical label that sells at high-midprice, calculated that they make 46 pence on each disc sold. Just to get an idea for the margins.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on September 19, 2013, 03:47:15 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on September 19, 2013, 02:43:02 AM
I think you rather underestimate the cost of re-issuing CDs (50 ct per CD isn't it---given the hike in raw material prices, the raw CD alone costs that much), and even a reasonable cost, depending on how you re-issue, you need to print a whole lot (again, depends on the effort and presentation, but starting at a run of 1000+ --- which is already more than most CDs will ever sell in their first lifetime) to make it viable. And then we don't know what contractual obligations there may be to the performers and producers. Nowadays, performers wave rights and pay for the production... but I don't think that's how the Mosaiques produced their Mozart CDs.

Some producers---can't speak for naive, admittedly---then like to wait to see how the second hand market develops in order to feel reassured that they can throw a new edition on the market without too much risk involved. And FYI: A small classical label that sells at high-midprice, calculated that they make 46 pence on each disc sold. Just to get an idea for the margins.

Not that it materially alters your point, but to clarify: do you mean 46 pence UK or US 46¢?

(In any event = chicken feed, bien sûr.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on September 19, 2013, 04:18:33 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on September 18, 2013, 09:51:42 PM
I don't think that's a valid comparison, as Brilliant is not involved in making new recordings (at least not as much as Naïve is, even considering their recent foray in creating original recordings). :)

The point is, after they have made the recording and sold out the first print run, for the purpose of the second print run they are in the same economic position as Brilliant. The recording has already been made, and all they have to do is pay the incremental cost of pressing more. Maybe they pay royalties to the artists, but that is paid per disc sold, not per disc printed.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on September 19, 2013, 04:27:12 AM

I can't find the link for the QM box set, could someone please repost it?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on September 19, 2013, 04:27:39 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on September 19, 2013, 02:43:02 AM
I think you rather underestimate the cost of re-issuing CDs (50 ct per CD isn't it---given the hike in raw material prices, the raw CD alone costs that much), and even a reasonable cost, depending on how you re-issue, you need to print a whole lot (again, depends on the effort and presentation, but starting at a run of 1000+ --- which is already more than most CDs will ever sell in their first lifetime) to make it viable. And then we don't know what contractual obligations there may be to the performers and producers. Nowadays, performers wave rights and pay for the production... but I don't think that's how the Mosaiques produced their Mozart CDs.

http://www.cdpressing.com/prices.htm

This web site advertises 1000 CDs, ready for the consumer, including assignment of a bar code, for $719. The price for discs themselves (no jewel cases and booklets) is $379 for 1000, or thirty eight cents each. This service includes making the glass master. Making more of a disc that had already been mastered would presumably be cheaper. I have a relative who operates a small classical record label, he has told me that this is what he pays for small production runs of CDs.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on September 19, 2013, 04:30:38 AM

Quote from: DavidW on September 19, 2013, 04:27:12 AM
I can't find the link for the QM box set, could someone please repost it?

http://www.amazon.fr/Haydn-Quatuor-Mosaiques/dp/B00EO7XPPC/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1379593811&sr=8-2&keywords=haydn+mosaiques

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on September 19, 2013, 04:31:32 AM

Quote from: DavidW on September 19, 2013, 04:27:12 AM
I can't find the link for the QM box set, could someone please repost it?

http://www.amazon.fr/Haydn-Quatuor-Mosaiques/dp/B00EO7XPPC/

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 19, 2013, 05:09:35 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on September 19, 2013, 02:43:02 AM
And FYI: A small classical label that sells at high-midprice, calculated that they make 46 pence on each disc sold. Just to get an idea for the margins.

Is that the net profit on each (or something else)? If this is a net profit number, it doesn't really show the right picture.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on September 19, 2013, 05:15:38 AM

Thanks Scarpia, North Star. Great price, I've preordered. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on September 19, 2013, 06:30:09 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on September 17, 2013, 09:30:39 PM
Isn't their Mozart on youtube? I mean, it won't take much just to go to youtube and confirm or deny your previous judgement.

I normally don't listen to music on youtube, but I did find one of their Mozart recordings and listened to a bit. The recordings struck me as okay, but not particularly remarkable, and I'm remembering why I sold them. I got the recordings with very high expectations after reading that the quartet members had worked with Harnoncourt in the Concentus Musicus Wien. The recordings were not bad, but had none of the magic I've come to expect from Harnoncourt and there was little to distinguish them from the many other recordings I have of this music. I sold them based on that disappointment (although I kept one disc, with the Mozart clarinet quintet). I probably should not have sold them, but I don't particularly care to buy them again. Based on what little I've heard, the original instrument quartet I prefer is the Festetics, whose recordings are also out-of-print. But original instruments string quartet recordings are not a high priority, for me, since it is mainly the sound of the wind instruments that draws me to original instrument recordings.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on September 19, 2013, 12:28:24 PM

And, btw, exactly that recording of the Clarinet Quintet (and Kegelstatt Trio) is the one Naive chose to reissue on their new group of budget re-issues (LA Collection Naive).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on September 19, 2013, 08:42:00 PM

Quote from: North Star on September 19, 2013, 04:31:32 AM
http://www.amazon.fr/Haydn-Quatuor-Mosaiques/dp/B00EO7XPPC/

i love the Mosaiques Haydn, and this looks like a great bargain. I don't know their Mozart. Why are we talking about Mozart?

A Festetics box would be nice, too.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Octave on September 19, 2013, 09:03:35 PM

Quote from: Daverz on September 19, 2013, 08:42:00 PM
i love the Mosaiques Haydn, and this looks like a great bargain. I don't know their Mozart. Why are we talking about Mozart?

A Festetics box would be nice, too.

I am hoping the nice price on the Badura-Skoda Schubert box was a test case for Arcana back catalog. An affordable Festetics set would be an automatic acquisition for me.
I too am psyched about the Mosaiques/Naive collection. Good times!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 19, 2013, 09:26:44 PM

Quote from: Daverz on September 19, 2013, 08:42:00 PM
I don't know their Mozart. Why are we talking about Mozart?

When it comes to the Mosaiques let it rain whomever. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on September 20, 2013, 03:02:09 PM

Now that I've bought the Davies set (symphonies), I don't regret it. I popped in #88-90 and the sound quality is exceptional, the performances vibrant, energetic. Listening to that cd was the best I've felt since I've been sick (a week and a half now and still sick). Certainly not dull. I look forward to hearing other cds and see if this will go beyond a first impression. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on September 20, 2013, 03:11:48 PM

Quote from: DavidW on September 20, 2013, 03:02:09 PM
Now that I've bought the Davies set (symphonies), I don't regret it. I popped in #88-90 and the sound quality is exceptional, the performances vibrant, energetic. Listening to that cd was the best I've felt since I've been sick (a week and a half now and still sick). Certainly not dull. I look forward to hearing other cds and see if this will go beyond a first impression. :)

This is a good pretext to listen to the early symphonies.

They are exceptionally well played by Davies and his excellent lineup of violins. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on September 21, 2013, 12:52:11 AM

Quote from: Scarpia on September 19, 2013, 06:30:09 AM
I normally don't listen to music on youtube, but I did find one of their Mozart recordings and listened to a bit. The recordings struck me as okay, but not particularly remarkable, and I'm remembering why I sold them. I got the recordings with very high expectations after reading that the quartet members had worked with Harnoncourt in the Concentus Musicus Wien. The recordings were not bad, but had none of the magic I've come to expect from Harnoncourt and there was little to distinguish them from the many other recordings I have of this music. I sold them based on that disappointment (although I kept one disc, with the Mozart clarinet quintet). I probably should not have sold them, but I don't particularly care to buy them again. Based on what little I've heard, the original instrument quartet I prefer is the Festetics, whose recordings are also out-of-print. But original instruments string quartet recordings are not a high priority, for me, since it is mainly the sound of the wind instruments that draws me to original instrument recordings.

I agree with you. The QM Mozart quartets are very good, but not as good as this music can be. The Festetics are wonderful in the live recording - I forget where you get it from now, but I made a post about it. Of course, Festetics are never as zappy as the QM - that lively agreeable style may be why people like them.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 21, 2013, 06:16:51 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on September 21, 2013, 12:52:11 AM
I agree with you. The QM Mozart quartets are very good, but not as good as this music can be.

Just a $.02 moment, but I disagree with that wholeheartedly.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on September 22, 2013, 12:56:38 PM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 21, 2013, 06:16:51 AM
Just a $.02 moment, but I disagree with that wholeheartedly.

I guess all I'm saying is that, I think, for all of the last 10 quartets, I know several recordings which I (much) prefer to hear. Part of the reason is that I think that the music needs a more tension, at least in the Mozart/Haydn series.

I've never understood the QM cult, even in Haydn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 22, 2013, 07:58:31 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on September 22, 2013, 12:56:38 PM
Part of the reason is that I think that the music [from the QM] needs more tension, at least in the Mozart/Haydn series.

Wait, now I'm confused. There seems to be a contradiction. The above in red doesn't jive with the below in red:

Quote from: Mandryka on September 21, 2013, 12:52:11 AM
Festetics are never as zappy as the QM - that lively agreeable style may be why people like them [the QM].

So do the QM have enough frisson or not? :)

Personally I find the QM have plenty of liveliness but it's their attention to the nuances in the music that I most admire, in both Mozart and Haydn.

QuoteI've never understood the QM cult, even in Haydn.

Calling it a "cult" is undercutting the QM's accomplishments and giving their popularity short shrift. As far as the former the QM have won at least two Gramophone Awards and with the latter, well, people have been talking about them on the web for as long as I can remember!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on September 22, 2013, 08:48:23 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on September 21, 2013, 12:52:11 AM
I agree with you. The QM Mozart quartets are very good, but not as good as this music can be. The Festetics are wonderful in the live recording - I forget where you get it from now, but I made a post about it. Of course, Festetics are never as zappy as the QM - that lively agreeable style may be why people like them.

My point of view is not that the QM recordings were lacking, just that the recordings were similar to recordings I already had and somewhat redundant in my collection.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on September 22, 2013, 09:34:33 PM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 22, 2013, 07:58:31 PM
Wait, now I'm confused. There seems to be a contradiction. The above in red doesn't jive with the below in red:

So do the QM have enough frisson or not? :)

Personally I find the QM have plenty of liveliness but it's their attention to the nuances in the music that I most admire, in both Mozart and Haydn.

Calling it a "cult" is undercutting the QM's accomplishments and giving their popularity short shrift. As far as the former the QM have won at least two Gramophone Awards and with the latter, well, people have been talking about them on the web for as long as I can remember!

QM do not enough tension in Mozart for me. Is that really unclear from what I typed before? I must be going mad, but it still looks clear to me.

Have you heard the Petersen Quartet's Mozart? I'm listening to The Melos play The Hoffmeister as I type, that would be another. The Ebene set is a favourite for me. And so are some from The Smetana Quartet (The live from Salzburg). i've just started to explore a wnole bunch of Mozart records - The Alexander Quartet, the Orford and The Chilingirian. So far I feel very very positive about The Alexander Quartet.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on September 22, 2013, 10:21:08 PM

Quote from: Scarpia on September 22, 2013, 08:48:23 PM
My point of view is not that the QM recordings were lacking, just that the recordings were similar to recordings I already had and somewhat redundant in my collection.

Oh, sorry. in that case we don't really agree.

Do you think the PI counts for much? (i'm inclined to say it doesn't, but I'm not sure)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on September 23, 2013, 02:49:52 AM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 22, 2013, 07:58:31 PM
Personally I find the QM have plenty of liveliness but it's their attention to the nuances in the music that I most admire, in both Mozart and Haydn.

Calling it a "cult" is undercutting the QM's accomplishments and giving their popularity short shrift. As far as the former the QM have won at least two Gramophone Awards and with the latter, well, people have been talking about them on the web for as long as I can remember!

This.

Denigrating the other fellow's preference as a "cult" undercuts one's own intellectual position.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on September 23, 2013, 04:06:08 AM

You surprise me, Annie. "Cult" is mere insult, and the very practice of discrediting is an exercise of the mind.

So thank you for the compliment :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on September 23, 2013, 04:31:20 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on September 23, 2013, 04:06:08 AM
You surprise me, Annie. "Cult" is mere insult, and the very practice of discrediting is an exercise of the mind.

So thank you for the compliment :)

And I just realize there is an Anne and an Annie. A quick glance at the post count made me realize this. :o :o

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on September 23, 2013, 04:32:22 AM

Well, and I like the Boston Baroque recording of The Creation. Am I a member of a "cult" there, too? ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on September 23, 2013, 04:43:18 AM

Quote from: Annie on September 23, 2013, 04:39:37 AM
I didn't even pay attention to the meaning. I was busy with denigrating your denigration of others' denigration 8)

We all need a hobby! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on September 23, 2013, 04:48:06 AM

Your generosity is noted. (Although, that may only be my opinion.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 23, 2013, 04:50:20 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on September 23, 2013, 04:32:22 AM
Well, and I like the Boston Baroque recording of The Creation. Am I a member of a "cult" there, too? ;)

We are the Cult of the Big Lizard. We adore Pearlman in all his manifestations. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on September 23, 2013, 04:56:27 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on September 20, 2013, 03:11:48 PM
This is a good pretext to listen to the early symphonies.

They are exceptionally well played by Davies and his excellent lineup of violins. :)

That's a good idea but I'll have to listen to at least one London, the Bear, and Mercury as well as an early one. A nice mix would be good for this evening. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 23, 2013, 04:56:39 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on September 23, 2013, 04:32:22 AM
Well, and I like the Boston Baroque recording of The Creation. Am I a member of a "cult" there, too? ;)

There is no evidence either way, but you are now suspect! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on September 23, 2013, 04:59:28 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on September 23, 2013, 04:56:39 AM
There is no evidence either way, but you are now suspect! :)

Well, that'll teach me! ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on September 23, 2013, 05:42:46 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on September 22, 2013, 10:21:08 PM
Oh, sorry. in that case we don't really agree.

Do you think the PI counts for much? (i'm inclined to say it doesn't, but I'm not sure)

As I mentioned above, I am a big fan of PI, but more so when wind instruments are involved.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on September 23, 2013, 05:47:19 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 23, 2013, 04:50:20 AM
We are the Cult of the Big Lizard. We adore Pearlman in all his manifestations. 0:)

Boston Baroque is fine, but in the Brandenburg Concerto No 5, I was very unimpressed with Pearlman's competence on the harpsichord, particularly in the cadenza. I have never enjoyed the piece less then listening to B.B.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on September 23, 2013, 06:00:51 AM

OTOH, if listening to Haydn be a cult, I am an unabashed devotee. (Do we get special colorful robes?)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on September 23, 2013, 06:01:38 AM

Quote from: Scarpia on September 23, 2013, 05:47:19 AM
Boston Baroque is fine, but in the Brandenburg Concerto No 5, I was very unimpressed with Pearlman's competence on the harpsichord, particularly in the cadenza. I have never enjoyed the piece less then listening to B.B.

I can't answer to their Brandenburgs. Thanks for the warning!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on September 23, 2013, 06:07:46 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on September 23, 2013, 06:01:38 AM
I can't answer to their Brandenburgs. Thanks for the warning!

You reaction may vary. I kept the set because the other concerti are fine and the Telarc audio engineering is superb.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 23, 2013, 07:09:46 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on September 23, 2013, 06:01:38 AM
I can't answer to their Brandenburgs. Thanks for the warning!

BB's disc of Monteverdi's Vespers is superb!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on September 23, 2013, 07:11:31 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 23, 2013, 07:09:46 AM
BB's disc of Monteverdi's Vespers is superb!

Agreed!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on September 23, 2013, 07:12:05 AM

Doubly on-topic: out sometime next month.

[asin]B009H75BUQ[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on September 23, 2013, 07:12:46 AM

Thanks for the alert, Nav!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on September 23, 2013, 07:13:27 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on September 23, 2013, 07:12:05 AM
Doubly on-topic: out sometime next month.

[asin]B009H75BUQ[/asin]

I'm getting 404 error, document not found.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on September 23, 2013, 07:21:08 AM

Quote from: Scarpia on September 23, 2013, 07:13:27 AM
I'm getting 404 error, document not found.

So the .com-mians haven't bothered to list it yet. Change the TLD to the UK store.

Quote from: sanantonio on September 23, 2013, 07:16:14 AM
I do too with all his Amazon links. Must be a non-US website.

???

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 23, 2013, 07:28:38 AM

I'll get that!

FYI, when the 404 comes up, go to the address bar and change .com to .co.uk and it works fine. I always have to do this with Navneeth's links.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on September 23, 2013, 07:32:53 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on September 23, 2013, 07:15:31 AM
...the first, in that, the horns are played with discretion and superb ensemble.

I forgot about that. Such a let-down. :(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on September 23, 2013, 07:34:07 AM

One man's meat is another man's poison.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on September 23, 2013, 07:36:43 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 23, 2013, 07:28:38 AM
I always have to do this with Navneeth's links.... :)

8)

I rarely visit the US Amazon but I troll the UK one for new releases. In most cases, discs are released there (or is at least listed) long before it is in the US. However the images are stored at a central location (loosely speaking) for all stores to access. So while the GMG-Amazon.com link is created automatically when I use the tags, it does not guarantee the availability of the item in the US.

Is everyone now clear how the plumbing works? 0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on September 23, 2013, 07:38:27 AM

Quote from: Scarpia on September 23, 2013, 07:32:53 AM
I forgot about that. Such a let-down. :(

Yeah, we need rowdy hornists in No. 1. ;D

(http://www.internetmonk.com/wp-content/uploads/can_of_worms_ahead.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 23, 2013, 08:00:06 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on September 23, 2013, 07:38:27 AM
Yeah, we need rowdy hornists in No. 1. ;D

(http://www.internetmonk.com/wp-content/uploads/can_of_worms_ahead.jpg)

Should I open the can? I'm good at that 8)

Sarge

P.S. Thank you, SanAn for warning me about the Boston's Brandenburgs. I'll certainly avoid them now ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on September 23, 2013, 08:05:07 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 23, 2013, 08:00:06 AM
Should I open the can? I'm good at that 8)

Sarge

And you are in Worms! It's as if the Universe wants you to do it. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 23, 2013, 08:05:07 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on September 23, 2013, 07:36:43 AM
I rarely visit the US Amazon but I troll the UK one for new releases. In most cases, discs are released there (or is at least listed) long before it is in the US. However the images are stored at a central location (loosely speaking) for all stores to access. So while the GMG-Amazon.com link is created automatically when I use the tags, it does not guarantee the availability of the item in the US.

Is everyone now clear how the plumbing works? 0:)

I figured it out and automatically correct for it quite a while ago. I was actually pleased in that it taught me a lesson how to deal with link issues. Can't complain about that. I want that disk anyway. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on September 23, 2013, 08:49:56 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on September 23, 2013, 07:36:43 AM
Is everyone now clear how the plumbing works? 0:)

Got it down pat - just like this guy...
(http://www.3dartistonline.com/users/118/thm1024/spout.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 23, 2013, 10:11:14 AM

As I continue to survey and explore every possible recording of No.45, the one I consistently have a love/hate relationship with is Harnoncourt. I love the overall performance, the Vienna Concentus Musicus have a marvelous tone, from the intense F# minor opening to the sweet sound from the pair of solo violins in the end. But I keep getting jarred by the tempo choices of the minuett of the third mvt. and presto of the finale, it's as if Harnoncourt switched them, the minuett is tightly brisk while the finale begins more relaxed and smooth whereas most interpretations are the opposite, with that intensity of the opening returning in the finale. Although, Harnoncourt's finale does segue quite nicely into the adagio portion that follows and doesn't separate these two contrasting parts as much as others have, here the "farewell" adagio feels like an extension of the presto.
It's quite an interesting take, and one I'm beginning to warm up to more, certainly carries more style than say Mackerras/St Luke or Fisher.

-Haydn thought of the day, by Greg Moeller

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on September 23, 2013, 09:28:52 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 23, 2013, 10:11:14 AM
As I continue to survey and explore every possible recording of No.45, the one I consistently have a love/hate relationship with is Harnoncourt. I love the overall performance, the Vienna Concentus Musicus have a marvelous tone, from the intense F# minor opening to the sweet sound from the pair of solo violins in the end. But I keep getting jarred by the tempo choices of the minuett of the third mvt. and presto of the finale, it's as if Harnoncourt switched them, the minuett is tightly brisk while the finale begins more relaxed and smooth whereas most interpretations are the opposite, with that intensity of the opening returning in the finale. Although, Harnoncourt's finale does segue quite nicely into the adagio portion that follows and doesn't separate these two contrasting parts as much as others have, here the "farewell" adagio feels like an extension of the presto.
It's quite an interesting take, and one I'm beginning to warm up to more, certainly carries more style than say Mackerras/St Luke or Fisher.

-Haydn thought of the day, by Greg Moeller

I like that one. I also agree with you about Mackerras, whose Haydn I've thought was uninteresting.

Scherchen's 45 is well worth hearing. Vilnos Tatrai's CD of it too isn't bad, but I prefer Scherchen and Harnoncourt.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on September 30, 2013, 09:31:27 AM

October new release

HAYDN, J.: Symphonies, Vol. 21 (Fey) - Nos. 99, 100 CD98.014
L'incontro improvviso, Hob.Ia:6: Overture • Symphony No. 100 in G Major, Hob.I:100, "Military" • Symphony No. 99 in E-Flat Major, Hob.I:99
Fey, Thomas - conductor / Heidelberg Symphony Orchestra

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 30, 2013, 10:06:59 AM

Quote from: Brian on September 30, 2013, 09:31:27 AM
October new release

HAYDN, J.: Symphonies, Vol. 21 (Fey) - Nos. 99, 100 CD98.014
L'incontro improvviso, Hob.Ia:6: Overture • Symphony No. 100 in G Major, Hob.I:100, "Military" • Symphony No. 99 in E-Flat Major, Hob.I:99
Fey, Thomas - conductor / Heidelberg Symphony Orchestra

Ye-Haw!
Fey seems to be speeding up the releases.

Sending brain waves of thoughts to Fey ------- No.98 and 80 next please.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on September 30, 2013, 10:25:08 AM

Quote from: Brian on September 30, 2013, 09:31:27 AM
October new release

HAYDN, J.: Symphonies, Vol. 21 (Fey) - Nos. 99, 100 CD98.014
L'incontro improvviso, Hob.Ia:6: Overture • Symphony No. 100 in G Major, Hob.I:100, "Military" • Symphony No. 99 in E-Flat Major, Hob.I:99
Fey, Thomas - conductor / Heidelberg Symphony Orchestra

Bring on Le Chat!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on September 30, 2013, 11:40:23 AM

I need to get Hadyn out of the way of my Frenchy Thing! ;) :-*

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 30, 2013, 11:53:57 AM

Quote from: Brian on September 30, 2013, 09:31:27 AM
October new release

HAYDN, J.: Symphonies, Vol. 21 (Fey) - Nos. 99, 100 CD98.014
L'incontro improvviso, Hob.Ia:6: Overture • Symphony No. 100 in G Major, Hob.I:100, "Military" • Symphony No. 99 in E-Flat Major, Hob.I:99
Fey, Thomas - conductor / Heidelberg Symphony Orchestra

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 30, 2013, 10:06:59 AM
Sending brain waves of thoughts to Fey ------- No.98 and 80 next please.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/dec11/haydn99100overfey.jpg)

The Cat!!! Fey heard my prayers 8)

Sarge

P.S. Sorry, Greg, it was a close run thing (99 vs 98 :D )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on September 30, 2013, 12:38:43 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 30, 2013, 11:53:57 AM
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/dec11/haydn99100fey.jpg)

The Cat!!! Fey heard my prayers 8)

Sarge

P.S. Sorry, Greg, it was a close run thing (99 vs 98 :D )

On the front of the Cat, I have some hopes that a major concert venue might join the nicknaming of that work. Will keep you posted of the efforts to get the Meow out into the world!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 30, 2013, 12:42:38 PM

Quote from: jlaurson on September 30, 2013, 12:38:43 PM
On the front of the Cat, I have some hopes that a major concert venue might join the nicknaming of that work. Will keep you posted of the efforts to get the Meow out into the world!

I hope you can make that happen. You know, my earthly immortality depends on it. It will be the only thing I hope to accomplish in this life: a Wiki footnote on the origin of the nickname :D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 01, 2013, 06:30:04 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on September 30, 2013, 11:53:57 AM
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/dec11/haydn99100fey.jpg)

just a query; if he's grown big enough to be the same size as London Bridge (drinking Entdraughts, I assume), can he still be called "the Hobbit"?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on October 01, 2013, 06:42:45 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 01, 2013, 06:30:04 AM
just a query; if he's grown big enough to be the same size as London Bridge (drinking Entdraughts, I assume), can he still be called "the Hobbit"?

Maybe it was the Tower Bridge which shrunk.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 02, 2013, 11:13:36 AM

Twenty-seven clams?! I've pulled the trigger on the DRD box.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on October 02, 2013, 11:16:19 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 02, 2013, 11:13:36 AM
Twenty-seven clams?! I've pulled the trigger on the DRD box.

Hi Karl, is that DRD steal-of-a-deal on period instruments or modern? Or anyone else who would like to answer. :) Merci!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 02, 2013, 11:28:03 AM

I should guess the Stuttgarters are mods, Ray, but Davey and others can answer with more experience of this box :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on October 02, 2013, 11:35:10 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 02, 2013, 11:28:03 AM
I should guess the Stuttgarters are mods, Ray, but Davey and others can answer with more experience of this box :)

I just checked the details on the box. Yes, you are correct, it is on modern instruments.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on October 02, 2013, 11:37:29 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on October 02, 2013, 11:35:10 AM
I just checked the details on the box. Yes, you are correct, it is on modern instruments.

Beware: there's a harpsichord among them! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on October 02, 2013, 11:39:56 AM

Quote from: Opus106 on October 02, 2013, 11:37:29 AM
Beware: there's a harpsichord among them! ;D

That's OK. Harpsichord, I don't mind. It's the thing between the modern piano and the harpsichord I don't like. ;D The pianoforte. :blank:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Opus106 on October 02, 2013, 11:46:04 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on October 02, 2013, 11:39:56 AM
That's OK. Harpsichord, I don't mind.

Neato.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on October 02, 2013, 12:15:08 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 01, 2013, 06:30:04 AM
just a query; if he's grown big enough to be the same size as London Bridge (drinking Entdraughts, I assume), can he still be called "the Hobbit"?

Oh, now I get it...the Tower Bridge...for the London Symphonies. I kept thinking, 'I don't remember seeing that thing in Heidelberg.'

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 03, 2013, 03:37:52 AM

QuoteHello,

We have good news! We're able to get this part of your order to you faster than we originally promised:

Franz Joseph Haydn "Joseph Haydn: The Complete Symphonies"
Previous estimated arrival date: October 11, 2013 - October 17, 2013
New estimated arrival date: October 08, 2013

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on October 03, 2013, 04:10:09 AM

Magnifique, Karl! 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 03, 2013, 04:35:00 AM

Viz. the applause complaint (and at this price-point, I can endure much): is it just at the end of the final symphony on a given disc? At the end of every symphony? At the end of every movement?

TIA

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on October 03, 2013, 04:36:57 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 03, 2013, 04:35:00 AM
Viz. the applause complaint (and at this price-point, I can endure much): is it just at the end of the final symphony on a given disc? At the end of every symphony? At the end of every movement?

TIA

Applause is not something that annoys me. What annoys me more is background coughing.

I have the live Beethoven cello sonatas set (du Pre/Barenboim). Great performances, however, there is so much coughing in some spots, you'd thought this was recorded during the Bubonic Plague! :blank:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 03, 2013, 04:38:10 AM

I feel as I'm being forced to consider the DRD set. I mean, I've paid $25 for a single Haydn disc before. And I'm on a mission to obtain every 45 and now 80 ever recorded.
Since I can't find any samples I have a few questions regarding the play style, I see its modern instruments but do the strings use vibrato? How many string players used in the performances? Harpsichord used in all 100+ symphonies?

I feel like such a Haydn Geek, but a proud Haydn Geek. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 03, 2013, 04:47:18 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 03, 2013, 04:38:10 AM
I feel as I'm being forced to consider the DRD set [....]

I feel ya. I mean, it isn't as if I have already listened through the entire AAM box yet (incomplete as that set is).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 03, 2013, 05:00:04 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 03, 2013, 04:47:18 AM
I feel ya. I mean, it isn't as if I have already listened through the entire AAM box yet (incomplete as that set is).

That's what happens, others get pushed back because of Haydn, even other Haydn discs! My wish list always gets pushed back when Fey releases new discs or something gets attention like this DRD set. Poor Dvorak has been sitting near my cart for weeks.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 03, 2013, 05:42:21 AM

Thanks! I think I must be able to find a 'work-around' . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on October 03, 2013, 06:06:23 AM

Those concerned with the applause issue (and generally curious about the set) may find this link useful:

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/6p54v4ea429m7y8/Davies.mp3

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on October 03, 2013, 06:20:17 AM

Quote from: Scarpia on October 03, 2013, 06:06:23 AM
Those concerned with the applause issue (and generally curious about the set) may find this link useful:

http://www.mediafire.com/listen/6p54v4ea429m7y8/Davies.mp3

Looks like about 30 seconds of clapping at the end. If that is taken to be the usual:

30 seconds x 106 symphonies = 53 min of total applause

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 03, 2013, 06:41:47 AM

Quote from: George on October 03, 2013, 06:20:17 AM
Looks like about 30 seconds of clapping at the end. If that is taken to be the usual:

30 seconds x 106 symphonies = 53 min of total applause

If someone is really desperate for applause, iTunes is selling the applause (from both before and after the performance) from most of Celibidache's EMI discs, ranging from $0.99 to $1.29.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on October 03, 2013, 06:43:08 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 03, 2013, 06:41:47 AM
If someone is really desperate for applause, iTunes is selling the applause (from both before and after the performance) from most of Celibidache's EMI discs, ranging from $0.99 to $1.29.

Yeah, but it doesn't sound like applause, due to the slow tempo.

;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 03, 2013, 06:47:31 AM

Quote from: George on October 03, 2013, 06:43:08 AM
Yeah, but it doesn't sound like applause, due to the slow tempo.

;)

It's got to be the slowest timed applause from any applauded recording. ??? :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on October 03, 2013, 06:52:44 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 03, 2013, 06:47:31 AM
It's got to be the slowest timed applause from any applauded recording. ??? :)

I was teasing because Celibidache's Bruckner tempos for EMI are famous for their slow tempos.

I always program my CD player to avoid both the starting and ending applause.

I also noticed in the sample Scarpia posted that it would have been very easy for them to either edit out the applause or make it a separate track. There's enough space between the end of the music and the start of the applause.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 03, 2013, 03:14:04 PM

ImportCDs emailed me to say my order (placed last night) was already shipped on DHL/USPS today.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on October 03, 2013, 03:17:04 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 03, 2013, 03:14:04 PM
ImportCDs emailed me to say my order (placed last night) was already shipped on DHL/USPS today.

*pounds the table*

I've just received word from them an hour ago, confirming shipment! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 03, 2013, 07:33:06 PM

Guess who didn't like the DRD set ::) .... The Hurwitzer (http://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-15256/).

With a nice counter review from Fanfare's James H. North (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=282647) who blasts other critics (second to last paragraph) who made some negative comments regarding this set.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on October 03, 2013, 08:33:55 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 03, 2013, 07:33:06 PM
Guess who didn't like the DRD set ::) .... The Hurwitzer (http://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-15256/).

With a nice counter review from Fanfare's James H. North (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=282647) who blasts other critics (second to last paragraph) who made some negative comments regarding this set.

Hurwitz gets my grudging admiration for being able to make a living writing that nonsense.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 04, 2013, 07:58:57 AM

I enjoyed the thorough fanfare review Greg, thanks for linking it. It really shows how superficial and brief Classics Today reviews are in comparison.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on October 04, 2013, 10:46:50 PM

Quote from: George on October 03, 2013, 06:43:08 AM
Yeah, but it doesn't sound like applause, due to the slow tempo.

;)

Biggest laugh-out-loud of my day!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on October 05, 2013, 02:47:45 AM

Quote from: Scarpia on October 03, 2013, 08:33:55 PM
Hurwitz gets my grudging admiration for being able to make a living writing that nonsense.

;D :'( ;D

I love how, on that review, to visually support the claim that everything is shoddy, they deliberate (you can bet your behind on that!) used the absolutely worst image-cover available for that set...
Insidious, one might say.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on October 05, 2013, 05:21:42 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on October 05, 2013, 02:47:45 AMlove how, on that review, to visually support the claim that everything is shoddy, they deliberate (you can bet your behind on that!) used the absolutely worst image-cover available for that set...
Insidious, one might say.

NY Times did it all the time for Bush.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on October 05, 2013, 05:33:34 AM

Quote from: Scarpia on October 05, 2013, 05:21:42 AM
NY Times did it all the time for Bush.

Not saying he came up with the concept. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 10, 2013, 05:39:18 PM

Hey, Haus-Mates!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51nEOs2CjKL._SY300_.jpg)

What's the story with all the DRD/Haydn purchases? Mine is en route (in Chattanooga to be precise), and am eagerly looking forward to spinning these. Just curious if anyone has received theirs yet and what they think?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on October 10, 2013, 06:35:42 PM

Arrrgh! I already have enough choices to make when I want to listen to any Haydn Symphony.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 10, 2013, 07:07:16 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 10, 2013, 05:39:18 PM
Hey, Haus-Mates!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51nEOs2CjKL._SY300_.jpg)

What's the story with all the DRD/Haydn purchases? Mine is en route (in Chattanooga to be precise), and am eagerly looking forward to spinning these. Just curious if anyone has received theirs yet and what they think?

As posted in the Purchases thread, mine landed today. Although it will be a bit before I listen to it. I'm still finishing the Hogwood/AAM box (currently playing CD 26 as I type this) and the Fischer cycle remains unlistened to. And that's just the Haydn part of Mount Listen To.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on October 10, 2013, 07:17:37 PM

I wonder if anyone will ever dig up and transfer the tapes for the old Maerzendorfer set. And then there are all those wonderful Leslie Jones Lps. I know Haydn House has ripped these, but I didn't think much of their work.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 10, 2013, 07:24:34 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 10, 2013, 07:07:16 PM
As posted in the Purchases thread, mine landed today. Although it will be a bit before I listen to it. I'm still finishing the Hogwood/AAM box (currently playing CD 26 as I type this) and the Fischer cycle remains unlistened to. And that's just the Haydn part of Mount Listen To.

That's a lot of Haydn, Jeffrey. How are you liking Hogwood so far?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 10, 2013, 07:28:47 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 10, 2013, 07:24:34 PM
That's a lot of Haydn, Jeffrey. How are you liking Hogwood so far?

So far, so good.
Actually, so far, so very good.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 11, 2013, 02:42:19 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 10, 2013, 07:28:47 PM
So far, so good.
Actually, so far, so very good.

Good to hear. I don't have the set, only some individual discs of symphonies and several concerto discs, but the Hogwood/Haydns are wonderful. Moving from Hogwod to DRD or Fischer will make for an interesting contrast.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 11, 2013, 03:26:03 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 10, 2013, 07:07:16 PM
. . . I'm still finishing the Hogwood/AAM box . . . .

That's the boat I'm in, too!

I've listened to the last [DRD] CD, with the "Clock" and the Sinfonia concertante, and this is great stuff.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 11, 2013, 03:30:39 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 10, 2013, 05:39:18 PM

What's the story with all the DRD/Haydn purchases? Mine is en route (in Chattanooga to be precise), and am eagerly looking forward to spinning these. Just curious if anyone has received theirs yet and what they think?

I've listened to all of the Storm and Stress symphonies so far. I don't agree with the Fanfare review that the tempos are slow, it seems to be the opposite. I can't immediately compare with Hogwood because it has been a few months. The excellent sound quality, swift tempos and small orchestra add up to excellent recordings. I still hate the applause.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 11, 2013, 03:48:27 AM

Quote from: DavidW on October 11, 2013, 03:30:39 AM
I've listened to all of the Storm and Stress symphonies so far. I don't agree with the Fanfare review that the tempos are slow, it seems to be the opposite. I can't immediately compare with Hogwood because it has been a few months. The excellent sound quality, swift tempos and small orchestra add up to excellent recordings. I still hate the applause.

Great! Thanks for the feedback, David.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 11, 2013, 03:54:10 AM

I hope that you enjoy them Greg! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on October 11, 2013, 06:03:07 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 10, 2013, 05:39:18 PM
Hey, Haus-Mates!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51nEOs2CjKL._SY300_.jpg)

What's the story with all the DRD/Haydn purchases? Mine is en route (in Chattanooga to be precise), and am eagerly looking forward to spinning these. Just curious if anyone has received theirs yet and what they think?

Mine is on route too, Greg! Looking forward to digging into the set once it arrives. As I mentioned before, I've only heard about a dozen or so Haydn symphonies to date.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 11, 2013, 06:06:27 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on October 11, 2013, 06:03:07 AM
I've only heard about a dozen or so Haydn symphonies to date.

Well you have about 7 dozen more to listen to! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 11, 2013, 05:57:23 PM

Somewhere Karl posted a pic of his DRD box set arrival. I came home just now late from work to a similar image...

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/12/enaqamem.jpg)

...which was opened by my wife. Who I'm guessing had a reaction along the lines of, "37 f***ing CDs? Is he crazy?"
I'm sure I'll have some explaining to do ;D
Anyway,I ordered Amazon and it arrived in exactly 48 hrs.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 12, 2013, 05:14:43 AM

*Double Posting*

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 12, 2013, 05:01:44 AM
Modern Instruments can play Haydn! 8)
Chose No.53 and 70 as my first symphonies to listen to from this set. Perfectly recorded with all the beautiful middle and lower voices clearly defined, especially the winds. Harpsichord noticeable at times but it's never too much *cough*Goodman*cough*
Only 2 symphonies in and I already like this set much more than the Hurwitzer. $:) <---critic police

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51nEOs2CjKL._SY300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: HIPster on October 12, 2013, 10:55:09 AM

Hello Haydn fans!

I am listening to this CD at the moment and wanted to share with you my appreciation of this (to me) very fine release:
[asin]B00000E3XL[/asin]

I first discovered these symphonies via an old Max Goberman LP and they have remained favorites for many years.

I am considering another set of these works and am looking at Goodman, Hasselbock and the Frieburger Barockorchester. I've loved everything I've heard from the F.B.O, they're an easy sell to me. The Goodman interests me, largely because some of what I've read, mentions the prominence of the harpsichord continuo, which interests me as I do like that instrument. Both the Goodman and the Hasselbock are available cheaply at BRO; another consideration.

Thank you for any advice!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 12, 2013, 11:11:40 AM

Quote from: HIPster on October 12, 2013, 10:55:09 AM
Hello Haydn fans!

I am considering another set of these works and am looking at Goodman, Hasselbock and the Frieburger Barockorchester. I've loved everything I've heard from the F.B.O, they're an easy sell to me. The Goodman interests me, largely because some of what I've read, mentions the prominence of the harpsichord continuo, which interests me as I do like that instrument. Both the Goodman and the Hasselbock are available cheaply at BRO; another consideration.

Thank you for any advice!

Can't go wrong with these two which are both on PI. Both recent acquisitions for me (within the past year or two) but easily two of the best recordings of 6,7 & 8 I've heard.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51QDRW6A94L._SS300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/519asidiMjL._SS300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on October 12, 2013, 11:13:17 AM

Quote from: HIPster on October 12, 2013, 10:55:09 AM
Hello Haydn fans!

I am listening to this CD at the moment and wanted to share with you my appreciation of this (to me) very fine release:
[asin]B00000E3XL[/asin]

I first discovered these symphonies via an old Max Goberman LP and they have remained favorites for many years.

I am considering another set of these works and am looking at Goodman, Hasselbock and the Frieburger Barockorchester. I've loved everything I've heard from the F.B.O, they're an easy sell to me. The Goodman interests me, largely because some of what I've read, mentions the prominence of the harpsichord continuo, which interests me as I do like that instrument. Both the Goodman and the Hasselbock are available cheaply at BRO; another consideration.

Thank you for any advice!

That "Pinocchio" looks very tempting! :)

My favourite recording of the hours of the day is that by the Freiburgers (Hasselbock is very close, though). It's beautifully recorded and performed by a small ensemble which also includes a very vivid harpsichord, so you would kill two birds with one stone. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on October 12, 2013, 11:17:07 AM

On a side note: Keep posting in the Haus.....we are nipping at Havergal Brian's heels!! :laugh:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2013, 11:19:02 AM

Quote from: HIPster on October 12, 2013, 10:55:09 AM
Hello Haydn fans!

I am listening to this CD at the moment and wanted to share with you my appreciation of this (to me) very fine release:
[asin]B00000E3XL[/asin]

I first discovered these symphonies via an old Max Goberman LP and they have remained favorites for many years.

I am considering another set of these works and am looking at Goodman, Hasselbock and the Frieburger Barockorchester. I've loved everything I've heard from the F.B.O, they're an easy sell to me. The Goodman interests me, largely because some of what I've read, mentions the prominence of the harpsichord continuo, which interests me as I do like that instrument. Both the Goodman and the Hasselbock are available cheaply at BRO; another consideration.

Thank you for any advice!

Well, in addition to yours, there are these for your consideration;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnApollo6-8cover.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKuijken6-8cover_zps3144efbc.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Goodman06_08cover_zpsde36e627.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHaselboumlck6-8cover_zps1dbf5bd3.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HMSymphonies6-8Freiburgcover_zpsc82018ac.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHarnoncourtSymphoniescover.jpg)

If you have a particular favorite band, and it seems you do with Freiburg Baroque, you won't go wrong choosing them. I really like their interpretation, it's frisky and solemn by turns, just as Haydn himself was (in my mind). Very nice performances but then, there is a lot of room for different musical thoughts in such wide-ranging works. I could hardly choose among them, really. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 12, 2013, 07:18:19 PM

Okay what are your favorite recordings on period instruments that fill in the gaps of the Hogwood set?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 13, 2013, 06:55:18 AM

Quote from: DavidW on October 12, 2013, 07:18:19 PM
Okay what are your favorite recordings on period instruments that fill in the gaps of the Hogwood set?

Well, without going all over the map, I would go with Kuijken for 82-104.

Quote from: sanantonio on October 13, 2013, 06:43:48 AM
I seem to remember that you can't put together a complete Haydn PI symphony collection. I think 79 and 81 have not been done by anyone on period instruments.

This is true. I use Freiburg Baroque for #80, and I am currently using Fischer for 79 & 81. Best one can do, I'm afraid. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 13, 2013, 07:31:46 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on October 13, 2013, 06:43:48 AM
I seem to remember that you can't put together a complete Haydn PI symphony collection. I think 79 and 81 have not been done by anyone on period instruments.

That's only two symphonies, that doesn't make it pointless to fill in the gaps, one small gap left is better than a huge gaping gap of Haydn's greatest symphonies! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 13, 2013, 07:34:02 AM

Thanks Gurn, the Kuijken Londons are hard to come by, but not impossible.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 13, 2013, 07:39:41 AM

Quote from: DavidW on October 13, 2013, 07:34:02 AM
Thanks Gurn, the Kuijken Londons are hard to come by, but not impossible.

They're easy if you want to un-ass $75 40 for the Japanese box set. Man that price has come down!! The singles can be a little more challenging, but I got them all 'Like New' for a total of ~$35. Took me 6 months though. :)

8)

Ooops, forgot the link! :-[

[asin]B000EBDCUA[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 13, 2013, 07:43:06 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on October 13, 2013, 07:34:28 AM
No, it is not pointless; I never implied that it was. Just alerting you to the fact that it is also impossible to form a complete PI Haydn collection. Which never ceases to bother me.

>:(

Gurn's suggestion is the best and easiest option.

Leaves me incredulous whenever I consider it.

I read recently that a concert series in July by La Stagione Frankfurt included the set of 6, 76-81. It is being tossed about that it was recorded, possibly for release on CD. Not holding my breath, but sure would be nice. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 13, 2013, 07:50:27 AM

Wanted to share this in the Haus...

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 12, 2013, 10:40:14 AM

No. 45 "Farewell", perfectly paced from the intense opening to the final violin duet, with again clear and defined sound. High praise to the Horns for smoothly cutting through in the Presto finale with a bright and luminous tone without ever sounding over-blown. AND, they omitted the applause for No. 45, it's a very clever move on behalf of the producers of this set.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51nEOs2CjKL._SY300_.jpg)

Im starting to see a trend with DRD that might answer why some reviews have said his tempos are slow. It seems, and this is based in the 5-6 discs I've listened to so far, that DRD opts for a slower tempo in the opening movements, although this could not be said for his slower mvts (adagios, largo, andante, etc...) which are consistent with a steady walking pace. And the finales are always comparable with most other recordings, fairly standard or close enough in tempo to others .

Still the biggest plus for me is the sound, it could be the best sounding Haydn I've heard regarding recorded symphonies. Of course the playing of the Stuttgart Chamber is top notch, which mixes well with top sound engineering.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on October 13, 2013, 07:51:48 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 13, 2013, 07:50:27 AM
Wanted to share this in the Haus...

Im starting to see a trend with DRD that might answer why some reviews have said his tempos are slow. It seems, and this is based in the 5-6 discs I've listened to so far, that DRD opts for a slower tempo in the opening movements, although this could not be said for his slower mvts (adagios, largo, andante, etc...) which are consistent with a steady walking pace. And the finales are always comparable with most other recordings, fairly standard or close enough in tempo to others .

Still the biggest plus for me is the sound, it could be the best sounding Haydn I've heard regarding recorded symphonies. Of course the playing of the Stuttgart Chamber is top notch, which mixes well with top sound engineering.

Can't wait to dig in, Greg! :) Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this set, thus far.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on October 13, 2013, 07:58:40 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 13, 2013, 07:39:41 AM
They're easy if you want to un-ass $75 40 for the Japanese box set. Man that price has come down!! The singles can be a little more challenging, but I got them all 'Like New' for a total of ~$35. Took me 6 months though. :)

8)

Ooops, forgot the link! :-[

[asin]B000EBDCUA[/asin]

Many times I have planned to compare the sound quality of the Japanese release with the original DHM disks, but I haven't done it. I think it would be an interesting exercise.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on October 13, 2013, 08:01:43 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 13, 2013, 07:50:27 AM
Wanted to share this in the Haus...
Of course the playing of the Stuttgart Chamber is top notch, which mixes well with top sound engineering.

Its violin section is the best that I've heard on modern instruments...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 13, 2013, 08:35:55 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on October 13, 2013, 07:51:48 AM
Can't wait to dig in, Greg! :) Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this set, thus far.

You're welcome, Ray. I have a feeling you'll be pleased with this box set.

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on October 13, 2013, 08:01:43 AM
Its violin section is the best that I've heard on modern instruments...

Interesting! I'll definitely need to listen to more of their recordings.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 13, 2013, 11:50:33 AM

Thanks Greg, I failed to be as careful to think about the tempo of each movement in isolation. Whenever I'm thinking about "why do people call this slow?" it's when I'm at the finale.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on October 15, 2013, 10:34:55 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 11, 2013, 05:57:23 PM
Somewhere Karl posted a pic of his DRD box set arrival. I came home just now late from work to a similar image...

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/10/12/enaqamem.jpg)

Had mine delivered today, from ImportCDs. Will open up and spin once I get home from work! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 15, 2013, 10:42:59 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on October 15, 2013, 10:34:55 AM
Had mine delivered today, from ImportCDs. Will open up and spin once I get home from work! :)

Yay! 8) Skip work for it, Ray!

Listened to more of the set this morning. Becoming increasingly convinced that Gordon's comment about the Stuttgart violins might be true.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on October 15, 2013, 12:31:33 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 15, 2013, 10:42:59 AM
Yay! 8) Skip work for it, Ray!

Listened to more of the set this morning. Becoming increasingly convinced that Gordon's comment about the Stuttgart violins might be true.

I'm home now. Yay! :) I'm going to make a 'random list', on the #1 to # 37, and that's how I'll approach exploring all of Haydn's symphonies (for the first time!)

I'm so excited! 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 15, 2013, 12:36:55 PM

Big welcome for our Ray to da Haus! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2013, 12:41:39 PM

Quote from: ChamberNut on October 15, 2013, 12:31:33 PM
I'm home now. Yay! :) I'm going to make a 'random list', on the #1 to # 37, and that's how I'll approach exploring all of Haydn's symphonies (for the first time!)

I'm so excited! 8)

As you should! The acquisition of ones first complete Haydn symphonies is a landmark on anyone's musical adventure. I don't say 'enjoy', it's too trite for the occasion. Rather, soak it up and be elevated. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 15, 2013, 01:10:28 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2013, 12:41:39 PM
As you should! The acquisition of ones first complete Haydn symphonies is a landmark on anyone's musical adventure. I don't say 'enjoy', it's too trite for the occasion. Rather, soak it up and be elevated. :)

8)

The landmark for me was my first complete string quartet box.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2013, 01:11:58 PM

Quote from: DavidW on October 15, 2013, 01:10:28 PM
The landmark for me was my first complete string quartet box.

Musical life is strewn with landmarks; those are two of the highest! 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on October 15, 2013, 01:19:38 PM

Quote from: DavidW on October 15, 2013, 01:10:28 PM
The landmark for me was my first complete string quartet box.

I just experienced that over the last year (complete set of Kodaly on Naxos)

Seriously, going through all the string quartets was one of the most enjoyable, and THOROUGHLY enjoyable experiences so far in my 'classical music life'. Each quartet unique, special, and not one I could say I disliked.

It was one of those "rite of passages", one of the most invigorating since discovering Beethoven's string quartets (and learning what a string quartet ACTUALLY was)! :laugh:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on October 15, 2013, 01:29:51 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2013, 12:41:39 PMsoak it up and be elevated.

Man that's a good exhortation.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 15, 2013, 01:48:32 PM

Quote from: ChamberNut on October 15, 2013, 01:19:38 PM
I just experienced that over the last year (complete set of Kodaly on Naxos)

Seriously, going through all the string quartets was one of the most enjoyable, and THOROUGHLY enjoyable experiences so far in my 'classical music life'. Each quartet unique, special, and not one I could say I disliked.

It was one of those "rite of passages", one of the most invigorating since discovering Beethoven's string quartets (and learning what a string quartet ACTUALLY was)! :laugh:

That was my first Haydn SQ big box too.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on October 15, 2013, 01:51:32 PM

This place frequently makes me feel inadequate, what with my 12 'London' symphonies, 15 string quartets, 8 piano trios, 2 cello concertos and a Creation. And not a single duplicate recording among 'em.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 15, 2013, 01:54:23 PM

No doubt, you've a good drop there to enjoy. There's a sea yet which awaits :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 15, 2013, 01:54:49 PM

Quote from: orfeo on October 15, 2013, 01:51:32 PM
This place frequently makes me feel inadequate, what with my 12 'London' symphonies, 15 string quartets, 8 piano trios, 2 cello concertos and a Creation. And not a single duplicate recording among 'em.

It's okay, we're just mentally ill. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 15, 2013, 01:59:15 PM

Quote from: DavidW on October 15, 2013, 01:54:49 PM
It's okay, we're just mentally ill. :D

Well, and we might be, at that! :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on October 15, 2013, 02:01:03 PM

No comment, DavidW.

Meanwhile, though, the entire forum has gone silent over Ravel's Prix de Rome entries. Egad. It's as if I've stumbled across some hitherto unknown music that no-one's ever heard. And I thought that was impossible in this place!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 15, 2013, 02:02:05 PM

I haven't seen that thread at all, where is it posted?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 15, 2013, 02:04:01 PM

Quote from: orfeo on October 15, 2013, 01:51:32 PM
This place frequently makes me feel inadequate, what with my 12 'London' symphonies, 15 string quartets, 8 piano trios, 2 cello concertos and a Creation. And not a single duplicate recording among 'em.

No need to feel inadequate, orfeo, this is certainly no race to see who can collect more. :) (although I wish I was winning if it was)

Quote from: DavidW on October 15, 2013, 01:54:49 PM
It's okay, we're just mentally ill. :D

And this, of course. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on October 15, 2013, 02:06:44 PM

Quote from: DavidW on October 15, 2013, 02:02:05 PM
I haven't seen that thread at all, where is it posted?

If you mean my Ravel comment, it is, shockingly enough, posted in the Ravel composer discussion thread.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 15, 2013, 02:10:15 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 15, 2013, 02:04:01 PM
No need to feel inadequate, orfeo, this is certainly no race to see who can collect more. :) (although I wish I was winning if it was)

I'm sure the record labels would appreciate that mentality though. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on October 15, 2013, 02:17:24 PM

Really, the only race is with myself. I might only have 30 or 40 years listening time to get to the end of the list.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 15, 2013, 02:29:44 PM

Okay I see it now. Ravel had such a small amount of music, I thought I had heard it all. I am mistaken.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2013, 02:53:33 PM

Quote from: DavidW on October 15, 2013, 01:48:32 PM
That was my first Haydn SQ big box too.

Mine too, although my first SQ's were the splendid Carmina Op 76 on Denon. They are what steered me to the Kodaly. And the rest is history. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2013, 02:58:04 PM

Quote from: orfeo on October 15, 2013, 01:51:32 PM
This place frequently makes me feel inadequate, what with my 12 'London' symphonies, 15 string quartets, 8 piano trios, 2 cello concertos and a Creation. And not a single duplicate recording among 'em.

A disk like this one;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardCoopercover.jpg)

would be a perfect adjunct to your collection. Haydn's keyboard sonatas are vastly under-appreciated, except by those who have heard them. :) Anyway, that is a nicely balanced group, even if you went no further (after getting a sonatas disk) you would be well-represented. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on October 15, 2013, 03:14:45 PM

Quote from: Brian on October 15, 2013, 01:29:51 PM
Man that's a good exhortation.

It makes me think of the scene in Immortal Beloved when Beethoven lies in the water and looks up at the sky, while his music plays, symbolizing how his music elevated him.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on October 15, 2013, 03:25:55 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2013, 02:53:33 PM
Mine too, although my first SQ's were the splendid Carmina Op 76 on Denon. They are what steered me to the Kodaly. And the rest is history. :)

8)

I was so lucky. My first SQ's were those two Op. 20 performed by the Esterházy Quartet (SEON).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on October 15, 2013, 04:25:32 PM

Lucky # 13 Disc is my first random DRD Haydn Listen. ;D

Let me just say (and Karl will appreciate this one).....there is some major toe tapping going on! 8)

All first listens to these three symphonies:

Symphony No. 59 in A major "Feuersinfonie"
**Symphony No. 49 in F minor "La Passione"
Symphony No. 26 in D minor "Lamentatione"

**This one, for me, is a major WOW factor. Magnificent! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2013, 04:29:11 PM

Quote from: ChamberNut on October 15, 2013, 04:25:32 PM
Lucky # 13 Disc is my first random DRD Haydn Listen. ;D

Let me just say (and Karl will appreciate this one).....there is some major toe tapping going on! 8)

All first listens to these three symphonies:

Symphony No. 59 in A major "Feuersinfonie"
**Symphony No. 49 in F minor "La Passione"
Symphony No. 26 in D minor "Lamentatione"

**This one, for me, is a major WOW factor. Magnificent! :)

Random or not, that was a superb choice for starters. Of course, you will have forgotten it by the time you've got to the end of the cycle, and then you will have to start all over again. >:D :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on October 15, 2013, 04:34:13 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2013, 04:29:11 PM
Random or not, that was a superb choice for starters. Of course, you will have forgotten it by the time you've got to the end of the cycle, and then you will have to start all over again. >:D :D

8)

:D

I have compiled my list of the random discs. Starts with disc 13, and ends with disc 11.

I won't list them all, as I think that even the most avid Haydn fan would think that a bit excessive. :laugh:

*PS - We are less than 100 posts away from hurdling pas the Havergal Brian thread. Ssshhhh......let's keep that quiet. ;D :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 15, 2013, 04:40:26 PM

Quote from: ChamberNut on October 15, 2013, 04:25:32 PM

**Symphony No. 49 in F minor "La Passione"

**This one, for me, is a major WOW factor. Magnificent! :)

One of the great symphonies. So glad to hear you're enjoying Haydn, Ray!

I began to type a few recommendations but deleted it. I realized that if I started to rec then everyone might follow and I didn't want you to become overwhelmed. But most importantly I realized that the best rec anyone can give is to rec all 100+ symphonies, no two sound the same, and they all carry that Haydn wit, charm and genius.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on October 15, 2013, 04:48:38 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 15, 2013, 04:40:26 PM
One of the great symphonies. So glad to hear you're enjoying Haydn, Ray!

I began to type a few recommendations but deleted it. I realized that if I started to rec then everyone might follow and I didn't want you to become overwhelmed. But most importantly I realized that the best rec anyone can give is to rec all 100+ symphonies, no two sound the same, and they all carry that Haydn wit, charm and genius.

Indeed, enjoying! I'm glad I did a random list of discs. It will be extra interesting that way. Many times, I do go chronologically, but when I did the Shostakovich string quartet month (back in Feb 2013?), it was great to go at it randomly! :)

Really love the design and colour scheme of the DRD box as well! Nice. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on October 15, 2013, 06:16:45 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2013, 02:58:04 PM
A disk like this one;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardCoopercover.jpg)

would be a perfect adjunct to your collection. Haydn's keyboard sonatas are vastly under-appreciated, except by those who have heard them. :) Anyway, that is a nicely balanced group, even if you went no further (after getting a sonatas disk) you would be well-represented. :)

8)

Hmm. The sonatas are indeed on the long-term shopping list. But perfect? That disc offends my preference for proper sets of works. Why only 1 out of 3 sonatas from 1794 for Therese Jansen?

It seems for composers pre-Beethoven, where we don't trust opus numbers, that we go the other way and often ignore the groups in which works were either composed or published. Haydn does okay with the string quartets of course.

But I applaud the general principle. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on October 15, 2013, 07:28:40 PM

Ray et. al., looking at my listening log, I recently had my first-ever listen to No. 49 (Fey/Heidelberg). I can't remember too much to say about it, but that was the day where I switched from Haydn to Ravel, and then got bored and turned it off, realizing that after 49 I only wanted to listen to Haydn nonstop. 100 and 99 followed immediately.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 16, 2013, 04:14:09 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on October 15, 2013, 04:34:13 PM
*PS - We are less than 100 posts away from hurdling pas the Havergal Brian thread. Ssshhhh......let's keep that quiet. ;D :D

I don't think any of the Havergalians^TM inhabit this thread....except me, of course, and I'm torn between the two. For now your secret is, probably, safe.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on October 16, 2013, 04:22:27 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 16, 2013, 04:14:09 AM
I don't think any of the Havergalians^TM inhabit this thread....except me, of course, and I'm torn between the two. For now your secret is, probably, safe.

Sarge

I was thinking about you, Sarge. C'mon, you are more of a Haydn fan (I think?) Doesn't matter, of course.

Please do not email the large GMG British contigent that only post in the Havergal Brian thread. :D

DRD Random disc 2 last night: Disc# 36, includes the #103 Drum Roll (one of my favourites, along with The Hen) and # 104 Salomon symphonies.

Outstanding!!!!! :)

PS - I love the applause after each symphony. I should join them ;D, as I'm enjoying it very much so far. OK, perhaps the applause will become an annoyance after 100+ symphonies, but we shall see. :laugh:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 16, 2013, 04:28:48 AM

Quote from: orfeo on October 15, 2013, 06:16:45 PM
Hmm. The sonatas are indeed on the long-term shopping list. But perfect? That disc offends my preference for proper sets of works. Why only 1 out of 3 sonatas from 1794 for Therese Jansen?

It seems for composers pre-Beethoven, where we don't trust opus numbers, that we go the other way and often ignore the groups in which works were either composed or published. Haydn does okay with the string quartets of course.

But I applaud the general principle. ;)

Yes, that's why I said "a disk like this one...", as a suggestion that the late works would be the ones to have if you weren't going to go further. Of course, for myself, the Beghin box on Naxos is the only choice. But I don't know your preferences vis-a-vis real historical playing style. I understand there are a few people who are under-enthusiastic about it... :-\ :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 16, 2013, 04:30:36 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on October 15, 2013, 04:25:32 PM
Lucky # 13 Disc is my first random DRD Haydn Listen. ;D

Let me just say (and Karl will appreciate this one).....there is some major toe tapping going on! 8)

All first listens to these three symphonies:

Symphony No. 59 in A major "Feuersinfonie"
**Symphony No. 49 in F minor "La Passione"
Symphony No. 26 in D minor "Lamentatione"

**This one, for me, is a major WOW factor. Magnificent! :)

Awesome! Also try Oxford, the Bear, and Mercury. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on October 16, 2013, 04:34:44 AM

Quote from: DavidW on October 16, 2013, 04:30:36 AM
Awesome! Also try Oxford, the Bear, and Mercury. :)

I'm sticking with my random list, David. :D The Bear, I really like (one of the about 10 Haydn Symphonies I have heard so far, prior to last night).

Hmm, let me check when these are slated to play on my random disc list:

The bear is in disc # 27 in my queue, the Oxford is disc # 8, while Mercury is the 2nd to last disc in the queue. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on October 16, 2013, 04:39:01 AM

I'm going on a road trip Friday-Sunday and this box is arriving Thursday. How convenient! I'll pull out probably 4 CDs at random (rigging it a bit; want to hear the Bear) and bring them along with Dave Brubeck Quartet at Carnegie Hall for contrast. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 16, 2013, 04:41:45 AM

Quote from: orfeo on October 15, 2013, 06:16:45 PM
Hmm. The sonatas are indeed on the long-term shopping list. But perfect? That disc offends my preference for proper sets of works. Why only 1 out of 3 sonatas from 1794 for Therese Jansen?

It seems for composers pre-Beethoven, where we don't trust opus numbers, that we go the other way and often ignore the groups in which works were either composed or published. Haydn does okay with the string quartets of course.

But I applaud the general principle. ;)

But to your question, on a programming thing like that, who can say what the motivation is? All of the works on there arre post-1790, so they qualify as late piano works if nothing else. There also seems to be an element of the popular, since it includes the 'Kaiser Franz Variations' and 'Un Piccolo Divertimento', both hugely popular, as well as #62, easily his most popular sonata, and Hob 48 & 49, both of which are very highly thought of by listeners and players alike. So it seems like they went for a bit of a theme that way rather than the nice alternative 'Last 3 Sonatas' possibility. Those were never published that way, BTW, because he gave them to Janzen and had to recompose one or two of them later for Vienna when she refused to publish.

A lot of Haydn's works are recorded in natural groupings though. The 6 sonatas from the early 1770's that he wrote and dedicated to the Prince, for example, usually come out together. Lots of the Keyboard Trios do to (The Bartolozzi Trios for example). I'm not sure why there is a tendency to break things up, maybe they are driven more by the sound of what goes well together than by what originally went together, since of course, Haydn couldn't know that any better than anyone else in real time. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 16, 2013, 04:49:22 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2013, 04:29:11 PM
Random or not, that was a superb choice for starters. Of course, you will have forgotten it by the time you've got to the end of the cycle, and then you will have to start all over again. >:D :D

8)

. . . and that is part of the joy of Haydn!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on October 16, 2013, 05:19:48 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 16, 2013, 04:28:48 AM
Yes, that's why I said "a disk like this one...", as a suggestion that the late works would be the ones to have if you weren't going to go further. Of course, for myself, the Beghin box on Naxos is the only choice. But I don't know your preferences vis-a-vis real historical playing style. I understand there are a few people who are under-enthusiastic about it... :-\ :)

8)

Honestly, I don't know. Are we talking about playing style, or historical instrument, or both?

I'm not especially either for or against historical instruments. To be honest I've scarcely heard any fortepiano recordings. All of my Bach keyboard material is on piano (I did have some of the suites on harpsichord on a cheap disc that I think was 'gifted' to me, which I found rather dull), whereas I'm collecting the Bach cantatas from the BIS series by Suzuki and finding all the research about instruments utterly fascinating, and my Bach orchestral works use period forces as well.

I'm definitely for historical playing style, as much as possible.

EDIT: As far as works go, I have this vague rule of thumb that my Haydn collection needs to expand to cover most of the material from the 1780s and 90s, which shows a lot more signs of organised publication and intentional public consumption. I have a vague sort of 'worksheet' which I drew up some time ago, well before I was aware of your own work here on a chronology which I have barely scratched the surface of.

I just had a look at the keyboard sonatas bit of the 'worksheet' and it looks like I've earmarked... okay what numbering system are we using here? From the Landon numbering I've marked from 34 all the way up to 62 as being of interest. In Hoboken terms, that's 21-43 and 47-52 (with 47 being the 2nd version of it? it's so confusing). That's actually going back into the 1770s. The last 9 would be of the greatest interest (Landon 54-62, Hoboken 40-42 and 47-52).

(Elsewhere, symphonies 76-92 are in my sights, and piano trios Hoboken 15-17, 18-20 and 21-23, and probably all the sets of 6 string quartets apiece that I haven't got yet!)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 16, 2013, 05:44:30 AM

Quote from: orfeo on October 16, 2013, 05:19:48 AM
Honestly, I don't know. Are we talking about playing style, or historical instrument, or both?

In Beghin's case, it would be both. He uses a large variety of historical instruments (practically everything but a Tangentenflügel :'( ), but the interesting aspect for me (I have a ton of historical instruments recordings) is that he shrugs off a lot of the accreted 19th century performance idiosyncrasies. At first hearing, this can be off-putting, because a lot of those stylistic traits were intended t make the music more audience friendly, I think. But after a few listens, it seems so natural this way that most others seem slick and almost contrived.

QuoteI'm not especially either for or against historical instruments. To be honest I've scarcely heard any fortepiano recordings. All of my Bach keyboard material is on piano (I did have some of the suites on harpsichord on a cheap disc that I think was 'gifted' to me, which I found rather dull), whereas I'm collecting the Bach cantatas from the BIS series by Suzuki and finding all the research about instruments utterly fascinating, and my Bach orchestral works use period forces as well.

I'm definitely for historical playing style, as much as possible.

Beghin is clearly the choice for that. There are a few single disks available that are very nice to have, like that Cooper, or Bilson or Staier. I am very fond of those. Another full box set is Christine Schornsheim on Capriccio. If I couldn't get Beghin this would be my second choice. She also uses harpsichord and clavichord wherever appropriate, although not quite the array that Beghin uses.

QuoteEDIT: As far as works go, I have this vague rule of thumb that my Haydn collection needs to expand to cover most of the material from the 1780s and 90s, which shows a lot more signs of organised publication and intentional public consumption. I have a vague sort of 'worksheet' which I drew up some time ago, well before I was aware of your own work here on a chronology which I have barely scratched the surface of.

I just had a look at the keyboard sonatas bit of the 'worksheet' and it looks like I've earmarked... okay what numbering system are we using here? From the Landon numbering I've marked from 34 all the way up to 62 as being of interest. In Hoboken terms, that's 21-43 and 47-52 (with 47 being the 2nd version of it? it's so confusing). That's actually going back into the 1770s. The last 9 would be of the greatest interest (Landon 54-62, Hoboken 40-42 and 47-52).

Don't worry about the #47, it's extremely likely that it's bogus anyway, the creation of a publisher from the earlier work. Go with the original.

I have a hard time not using Hob numbers, but in the sonatas the Landon numbers are more widely accepted, since most of the sheet music is published with them. Not that they are gospel either (I have a blog article about chronology of the sonatas, it's just a primer Click the link (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/chronologies-sorting-out-the-keyboard-music-you-wish.html), still in progress, since it is just the pre-Esterházy stuff right now). That's a good place to start anyway, those ~1774 sonatas were the ones dedicated to the Prince, the first works ever 'legally' published.

Cheers,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on October 16, 2013, 03:24:33 PM

Now, onto disc 32 of the DRD set.

Another three touchdowns! :)

Symphony No. 96 in D major "The Miracle"
Symphony No. 95 in C minor
Symphony No. 93 in D major

On deck: Disc 7

Symphony No. 108 in B flat major
Symphony No. 14 in A major
Symphony No. 40 in F major
Symphony No. 12 in E major

I expect more positive toe-tapping to take place! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 16, 2013, 04:06:32 PM

Quote from: ChamberNut on October 16, 2013, 03:24:33 PM
Now, onto disc 32 of the DRD set.

Another three touchdowns! :)

Symphony No. 96 in D major "The Miracle"
Symphony No. 95 in C minor
Symphony No. 93 in D major

On deck: Disc 7

Symphony No. 108 in B flat major
Symphony No. 14 in A major
Symphony No. 40 in F major
Symphony No. 12 in E major

I expect more positive toe-tapping to take place! :)

Yet another nice lineup, Ray. #12, the one I bolded, is an especially nice work. It has been speculated (probably for cause) that it began life as the overture to an opera or some sort of production and expanded out from there into a full-blown symphony. It dates from 1763, so not as early as its number would imply. Anyway, it's all good! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 16, 2013, 04:34:56 PM

Quote from: Brian on October 16, 2013, 04:39:01 AM
I'm going on a road trip Friday-Sunday and this box is arriving Thursday. How convenient! I'll pull out probably 4 CDs at random (rigging it a bit; want to hear the Bear) and bring them along with Dave Brubeck Quartet at Carnegie Hall for contrast. :)

Nice Brian! :) (along with the coupling)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on October 16, 2013, 04:38:12 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 16, 2013, 04:06:32 PM
Yet another nice lineup, Ray. #12, the one I bolded, is an especially nice work. It has been speculated (probably for cause) that it began life as the overture to an opera or some sort of production and expanded out from there into a full-blown symphony. It dates from 1763, so not as early as its number would imply. Anyway, it's all good! :)

8)

Agreed here, it is very lovely! From the very opening, I could see how perhaps it being an Overture of an opera. At least, it seems to have that feel.

Very interesting! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 16, 2013, 04:45:48 PM

Quote from: ChamberNut on October 16, 2013, 04:38:12 PM
Agreed here, it is very lovely! From the very opening, I could see how perhaps it being an Overture of an opera. At least, it seems to have that feel.

Very interesting! :)

Yes, a lot of fun to listen to. Of course, that whole lineup was a peach. I just don't see people recognizing #12 very often. One of the problems with having such a huge oeuvre; even the highlights get lost in the crowd. Especially true when it is mostly highlights! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on October 16, 2013, 04:48:30 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 16, 2013, 04:45:48 PM
Yes, a lot of fun to listen to. Of course, that whole lineup was a peach. I just don't see people recognizing #12 very often. One of the problems with having such a huge oeuvre; even the highlights get lost in the crowd. Especially true when it is mostly highlights! :)

8)

That is true. Only repeated listens over and over would help solve that to some degree. Each has its own unique, and original air and energy to it.

Wow, this is a VERY driving finale (to the #12). An incisive momemtum to it. Love it!! 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on October 16, 2013, 05:41:22 PM

There's nothing like a nickname to help a piece along, but we really do have to stop calling the 'Miracle' the 'Miracle', because it wasn't being played when the 'miracle' happened. We could perhaps call it the 'Former Miracle', so long as we start calling the true 'miracle'-linked symphony something like the 'Actual Miracle'.

Yes it was fun writing 'Miracle' (and 'miracle') that often, and yes I was doing it on purpose. :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 17, 2013, 03:50:40 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2013, 12:41:39 PMThe acquisition of ones first complete Haydn symphonies is a landmark on anyone's musical adventure.

It took me 27 years to reach that CD landmark. (In the LP days I had 31 Haydn symphonies.) Acquiring Haydn CDs started in 1985 with Hogwood's 94 & 96 "Miracle" (...Miracle...Miracle...Miracle...yeah, that's fun ;D ) and finally reached completion last year when I bought CDs containing 10, 11, 32 and 62. I resisted the complete boxes, dragging out the suspense and sweet agony 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 17, 2013, 04:10:08 AM

When you've snaffled a complete set of the symphonies, you're certainly in da Haus . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on October 17, 2013, 04:10:49 AM

Has anyone ever gone on an uninterrupted Haydn symphony journey? Listening to all of them, without anything else in between. *

*Except for occasional pee breaks and food and water :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on October 17, 2013, 04:12:20 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 17, 2013, 04:10:08 AM
When you've snaffled a complete set of the symphonies, you're certainly in da Haus . . . .

Well, I can proudly now say that not only am I in da Haus, but Haydn is in this Nuss' Haus! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2013, 04:21:08 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 17, 2013, 03:50:40 AM
It took me 27 years to reach that CD landmark. (In the LP days I had 31 Haydn symphonies). Acquiring Haydn CDs started in 1985 with Hogwood's 94 & 96 "Miracle" (...Miracle...Miracle...Miracle...yeah, that's fun ;D ) and finally reached completion last year when I bought CDs containing 10, 11, 32 and 62. I resisted the complete boxes, dragging out the suspense and sweet agony 8)

Sarge

My only truly complete set is Fischer, and I probably wouldn't have IT except that it came with the Big Box by default. The Kodaly set on Naxos was absolutely on purpose, though. Still no regrets there, because really needed to be able to hear all of them at will, which is not so easy. It remains my only complete set, since QF, QM, Salomon don't have Op 1 & 2, and Salomon doesn't have Op 76 either. And it looks like LHQ won't have 1 & 2 either. I suppose I can't complain since I have been arguing that they aren't really string quartets anyway. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2013, 04:22:44 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on October 17, 2013, 04:10:49 AM
Has anyone ever gone on an uninterrupted Haydn symphony journey? Listening to all of them, without anything else in between. *

*Except for occasional pee breaks and food and water :D

What kind of a question is that? Of course, I can't be the only one.... guys?

(PS - those adult diapers work well, just sayin').

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 17, 2013, 04:36:04 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on October 17, 2013, 04:10:49 AM
Has anyone ever gone on an uninterrupted Haydn symphony journey? Listening to all of them, without anything else in between.

I think I'm incapable of doing that. I need variety. My usual listening habit is to leap centuries between works, e.g., follow Haydn with something from the 20th century. Haydn, though, is one composer I can listen to for quite long stretches without tiring. He's that engaging. But listening to nothing but the symphonies for a few weeks?...no, it would be like eating nothing but your favorite meal every day for a month.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 17, 2013, 04:37:58 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 17, 2013, 04:36:04 AM
But listening to nothing but the symphonies for a few weeks?...no, it would be like eating nothing but your favorite meal every day for a month.

Sarge

No Ray means in less than two days!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2013, 04:38:13 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 17, 2013, 04:36:04 AM
I think I'm incapable of doing that. I need variety. My usual listening habit is to leap centuries between works, e.g., follow Haydn with something from the 20th century. Haydn, though, is one composer I can listen to for quite long stretches without tiring. He's that engaging. But listening to nothing but the symphonies for a few weeks?...no, it would be like eating nothing but your favorite meal every day for a month.

Sarge

It doesn't take that long..... 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 17, 2013, 04:39:38 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 17, 2013, 04:36:04 AM
I think I'm incapable of doing that. I need variety. My usual listening habit is to leap centuries between works, e.g., follow Haydn with something from the 20th century. Haydn, though, is one composer I can listen to for quite long stretches without tiring. He's that engaging. But listening to nothing but the symphonies for a few weeks?...no, it would be like eating nothing but your favorite meal every day for a month.

Sarge

Very close to my own soul.

Mind you, I can understand Gurn's ability to do this, and I do not find it . . . crazy. :laugh: But I don't believe I could assay it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on October 17, 2013, 04:40:19 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on October 17, 2013, 04:10:49 AM
Has anyone ever gone on an uninterrupted Haydn symphony journey? Listening to all of them, without anything else in between. *

Although Sarge is right about eating your favorite meal every day for a month, I'll chime in to say that one time on a weekend trip to another city, I listened to the complete Weil/Tafelmusik box on the drive. That's 21 symphonies in two-and-a-half days. Around the 15 or 16 mark I did start getting sick of them, so it's lucky I'd saved my favorites (e.g. the Bear) for the end.

That's why this weekend on my road trip, I'm bringing only a dozen or so Haydn symphonies and the rest of the drive will be Dave Brubeck Quartet. High contrast, another Sarge trademark!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on October 17, 2013, 04:51:02 AM

Quote from: DavidW on October 17, 2013, 04:37:58 AM
No Ray means in less than two days!

No, not really Dave. :D The timeframe was open. Just all symphonies (without any other music listened to in between).

Otherwise, you would need those diapers Gurn mentioned of! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 17, 2013, 04:53:00 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on October 17, 2013, 04:51:02 AM
No, not really Dave. :D The timeframe was open. Just all symphonies (without any other music listened to in between).

Otherwise, you would need those diapers Gurn mentioned of! ;D

Well you used the word uninterrupted. For the other case, yes I have. And others have as well. I listened to the Fischer box over the course of a month. A cd or two a day.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 17, 2013, 04:57:00 AM

Quote from: DavidW on October 17, 2013, 04:37:58 AM
No Ray means in less than two days!

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2013, 04:38:13 AM
It doesn't take that long..... 0:)

8)

Ah...I see "...without anything else in between" --not even sleep? Nut is suggesting something really nutty then :laugh: Nah, we have to sleep (and nap!...well, I'm old ;D ) Let's see: an average 20 minutes per symphony, three per hour, 48 in a 16 hour day; 96 in two days and a morning session on the third day to wrap things up. Doable, in two and half days, I suppose, but still, I would not want to attempt it.

Edit: I see Nut has clarified things.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 17, 2013, 05:03:18 AM

Hey Sarge have you listened to Wagner's Ring in one sitting?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2013, 05:04:17 AM

In the interest of full disclosure, I don't listen to music like that. I have all my Haydn broken up by year of composition. So I might listen to 3 or 4 years uninterrupted (which is a heck of a lot of music) but it includes the gamut of genres that he composed in. That is so nice that I might do it again soon. Hmmm, lets see here. How about 1775? OK, works for me. ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 17, 2013, 05:04:59 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on October 17, 2013, 05:01:57 AM
Don't forget that hour of applause is you are listening to the DRD set.

:P

lol

And skip that applause and you'll be punished! You will have to marathon listen to the complete works of Telemann without food or water! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 17, 2013, 05:06:31 AM

Quote from: DavidW on October 17, 2013, 05:03:18 AM
Hey Sarge have you listened to Wagner's Ring in one sitting?

No, never. I'm a Wagner HIPster...it was meant for four days and that's the way I listen to it 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on October 17, 2013, 05:11:11 AM

Quote from: DavidW on October 17, 2013, 04:53:00 AM
Well you used the word uninterrupted. For the other case, yes I have. And others have as well. I listened to the Fischer box over the course of a month. A cd or two a day.

My bad, David. :) My choice of words was misleading.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: AnthonyAthletic on October 17, 2013, 05:22:14 AM

I am not a huge Ring Cycle fan as it took me ages to sit down and give it a go. I did Tristan, Tannhauser, Maestersingers before the Ring. Not heard any other Wagner operas bar those three and the Ring itself.

I have on cd, Keilberth '55 Bayreuth & Levine's Met Cycle (super duper Canadian bargain) but took me individual days to listen to them. Not consecutive nights but more like a week or two.

I do have Barenboim's "Laser Effect Ring" on DVD with Tomlinson, Jerusalem & Evans and I did watch this in two complete setting one Saturday/Sunday. The birds were singing by the time the 900 minutes were up.

Its something I couldn't manage again...one at a time, next time....however great.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 17, 2013, 05:28:25 AM

This is exactly the place to confess such a thing, but . . . while I enjoyed all of it, I haven't even listened to all of Parsifal at once.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2013, 05:31:52 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on October 17, 2013, 05:07:10 AM
Do you have a favorite year(s)?

Interesting idea; I've thought of doing this - but have put it off due to the amount of retagging of the tracks, not to mention the frustrating lack of information for most of the works prior to 1766.

Retagging isn't that bad, actually, I put the appropriate music into a folder names 17xx, then I open just that folder in MP3Tag, and change the Album name to "17xx". If you were consistent when you tagged them originally, then they will be in order by Hoboken number and you can call it done. Even when I have to revise the dating due to learning something new, It is very simple to do this way.

If you read my blog, you will discover some pretty thoroughly researched composition dates. When I couldn't be precise and had to assign a date, I give the reason for it. Which you can take or leave, of course.

There are many years that I like a lot, 1786 and 1788 are two. 1792 and 1794 are another pair. But I don't discount 1756 & 1758 by any means. I am very fond of the early works and they are well represented here.

1772.... hell, I like them all for one reason or another. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2013, 06:00:22 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on October 17, 2013, 05:39:02 AM
I did not know about MP3Tag - and was put off by the manual tagging. I will download the software and see if I can get it going with my library.

Thanks.

Also, I'll check out your blog.

:)

MP3Tag, is the greatest little bit of freeware for people like me/us. If you are proficient at copy and paste, you can do an entire 'album' of 12 tracks or so in less than 5 minutes. Treats FLAC exactly like MP3.

Consistency may be the hobgoblin of small minds, but it is a vitally important part of tagging. Every single Haydn track I own (well over 10,000) is tagged exactly the same format. It really helps!

That would be super. Link is in my sig. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 17, 2013, 08:40:31 AM

Quote from: AnthonyAthletic on October 17, 2013, 05:22:14 AM
I have on cd, Keilberth '55 Bayreuth & Levine's Met Cycle (super duper Canadian bargain) but took me individual days to listen to them. Not consecutive nights but more like a week or two.

I first watched the Ring on vhs, I would check out one volume per week. Took me a month to see it. I think it was Levine Met but I might be mistaken.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 17, 2013, 08:53:43 AM

Bach, Beethoven and Haydn are the three composers I can listen to for several hours at a stretch. The other night, I finished off the Hogwood symphonies box by listening to the last three CDs in a row. But normally I'm like Sarge--I need variety: for instance, this morning/afternoon, before I go to work later on, I've listened to Bach (Cantatas for Solo Bass, from Koopman), Berwald (two symphonies), and now it's Mozart's turn (Martin Frost in the Clarinet Concerto and Kegelstatt Trio); if there's enough time to squeeze it in before I leave, Mozart will be followed by Thelonious Monk.

And Wagner? It's hard enough for me to get my schedule open enough to listen to one whole opera from the Ring, never mind all of them together!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on October 17, 2013, 10:50:38 AM

I made continuous listening of Dorati's set when I approached it, but I'm not quite sure if it was without any interruptions. But I can't imagine what could be so interesting for me then

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on October 17, 2013, 05:07:02 PM

Have listened to Disc 35 and Disc 22 of DRD set.

Disc 35

Symphony No. 100 in G major "Militarsinfonie"
Symphony No. 102 in B flat major

Disc 22

Symphony No. 66 in B flat major
Symphony No. 67 in F major (love the Adagio e cantibile passage in the final movement) :)
Symphony No. 69 in C major "Laudon"

Man, I am amazed that I keep 'expecting' some of the symphonies to sound alike, but that just ain't happening. :) Each one unique and authentic.

I'm having so much fun having Haydn in my Haus! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2013, 05:20:47 PM

Quote from: ChamberNut on October 17, 2013, 05:07:02 PM
Have listened to Disc 35 and Disc 22 of DRD set.

Disc 35

Symphony No. 100 in G major "Militarsinfonie"
Symphony No. 102 in B flat major

Disc 22

Symphony No. 66 in B flat major
Symphony No. 67 in F major (love the Adagio e cantibile passage in the final movement) :)
Symphony No. 69 in C major "Laudon"

Man, I am amazed that I keep 'expecting' some of the symphonies to sound alike, but that just ain't happening. :) Each one unique and authentic.

I'm having so much fun having Haydn in my Haus! :D

Ah, you've hit on one of my Top 5, #100. His last four symphonies in G major (88, 92, 94 & 100) are all in my Top 10. Something about the key of G just brought out all the little devils in the man and he seemed even more inspired than usual. :)

Yes, you will look in vain for repetition in the symphonies themselves, although if you had the facility to listen to Concerto #3 in G (Hob 7h:3) for 2 Lira organnizate, you would find that the second movement 'Romanze' is exactly the same music as the famous Allegretto, except lacking the 'Turkish Instruments'. Haydn was never one to waste a good piece of music if the opportunity arose to reuse it in a creative way! When this was being played in London back in 1793-95, audiences went absolutely wild over that movement. Of course, it didn't need explanation that it was military music; they were (always) at war so it rang true all the way. :)

I would listen to that one twice,. I always do, so did the Londoners. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 17, 2013, 05:22:48 PM

Which "Military" recording is your favorite, Gurn?

I just noticed I have Bruggen doing 100 and 104 on disc, been a while since I've listened to it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2013, 05:30:42 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 17, 2013, 05:22:48 PM
Which "Military" recording is your favorite, Gurn?

I just noticed I have Bruggen doing 100 and 104 on disc, been a while since I've listened to it.

Well, the one I have in my master set is Minkowski, the only one of that box that made it to the final cut. They flat play the hell out of it, just the way I like it. Probably my second favorite is Norrington. Brüggen, Kuijken & Hogwood are all chasing right up behind, but none match Minkowski for the excitement in the performance, maybe because it is live instead of studio? :)

8)

Oh, forgot to mention Goodman on Nimbus (not part of his Hyperion series). That one rocks pretty well too. This is a work that everyone tries their best with, and the competition is pretty fierce!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 17, 2013, 05:32:11 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2013, 05:30:42 PM
Well, the one I have in my master set is Minkowski, the only one of that box that made it to the final cut. They flat play the hell out of it, just the way I like it. Probably my second favorite is Norrington. Brüggen, Kuijken & Hogwood are all chasing right up behind, but none match Minkowski for the excitement in the performance, maybe because it is live instead of studio? :)

8)

The Minkowski is very good, the whole box is in fact. Which Norrington? LCP I'm guessing ;)

And yes, live always trumps studio.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2013, 05:37:17 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 17, 2013, 05:32:11 PM
The Minkowski is very good, the whole box is in fact. Which Norrington? LCP I'm guessing ;)

And yes, live always trumps studio.

This one here;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnNorrington99100cover.jpg)

which also comes in a box of the last 6 symphonies, which I have as 3 separate disks.

Except when you have to deal with applause. I can't remember the Minkowski having any, although if it did I excised it back when I ripped. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on October 17, 2013, 07:57:55 PM

Following Ray's example and listening in a totally random order. First up is #70. Harpsichord is there, but discreet. First movement is fairly soberly paced. This symphony is, of course, proving to be wonderful.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on October 17, 2013, 08:10:51 PM

These are the DRD Haydn albums drawn COMPLETELY at random for my drive to Austin and back!

CD 7
#108
#14
#40
#12

CD 12
#38 "Echo"
#58
#35

CD 13
#59 "Fire"
#49 "La passione"
#26 "Lamentatione"

CD 18
#51
#64

CD 31
#91
#92 "Oxford" (yyyyyeeeeeessssss!!!!!!)

CD 34
#97
#99

According to my records, these will be my first ever listens to 35, 38, 58, 59, and all of CD 7. Hmm. My samplings of the Fey cycle must be more varied than I thought if only 8 of the 14 are new to me. #92 is in my all-time top five!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 18, 2013, 02:42:21 AM

Quote from: Brian on October 17, 2013, 08:10:51 PM
These are the DRD Haydn albums drawn COMPLETELY at random for my drive to Austin and back!

CD 13
#49 "La passione"
#26 "Lamentatione"

CD 18
#51
#64

Those are some good ones, Brian. Crazy horn parts in No. 51, and No. 64 Tempora mutantur has recently become one I listen to often.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2013, 06:15:50 AM

Quote from: Brian on October 17, 2013, 08:10:51 PM
These are the DRD Haydn albums drawn COMPLETELY at random for my drive to Austin and back!

CD 7
#108
#14
#40
#12

CD 12
#38 "Echo"
#58
#35

CD 13
#59 "Fire"
#49 "La passione"
#26 "Lamentatione"

CD 18
#51
#64

CD 31
#91
#92 "Oxford" (yyyyyeeeeeessssss!!!!!!)

CD 34
#97
#99

According to my records, these will be my first ever listens to 35, 38, 58, 59, and all of CD 7. Hmm. My samplings of the Fey cycle must be more varied than I thought if only 8 of the 14 are new to me. #92 is in my all-time top five!

Well, given the subject (Haydn) it is hard to say whether this is your lucky day or not; almost any 5 disks would have yielded equivalent treasure!

While you are reveling in #92, don't overlook #91, an unsung gem of a work. :) I know your trip will go smoothly now.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 18, 2013, 07:55:56 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2013, 05:30:42 PM
Well, the one I have in my master set is Minkowski, the only one of that box that made it to the final cut. They flat play the hell out of it, just the way I like it. Probably my second favorite is Norrington. Brüggen, Kuijken & Hogwood are all chasing right up behind, but none match Minkowski for the excitement in the performance, maybe because it is live instead of studio? :)

8)

Oh, forgot to mention Goodman on Nimbus (not part of his Hyperion series). That one rocks pretty well too. This is a work that everyone tries their best with, and the competition is pretty fierce!

You really prefer Norrington's first record to his one with the Stuttgart?

For me this symphony (The Military) is for ever linked to two old performances, Van Beinum and Fricsay. Those were the two Haydn symphony performances which convinced me to take Haydn really seriously as a composer, and to some extent Van Beinum's especially really formed my taste in Haydn - sudden unexpected bursts of intense unpredictable threatening manic energy.

I recall well my excitement when I first discovered this serious angular way to play the music - no more "papa".

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: HenselFlaeder on October 18, 2013, 08:02:34 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 06, 2007, 05:12:15 PM
Excellent start, Bill. I have that disk too, not only is the Haydn very good, but that c minor sextet is a great intro to Krommer for those few who are unfamiliar with him! ;)

I'm am not just overrun with Haydn divertimentos, although I have a few. The difficulty in recommending is that many of them are OOP. :'( One that is OOP, but still frequently available in Amazon Marketplace or eBay is on SONY, called "Haydn 'The Natural Horn'". It features L'Archibudelli with Ab Koster on horn, and the contents are:

Hob deest (means "not appearing in Hoboken", BTW) - Cassation in D for 4 Horns, Violin, Viola & Bass
Hob II:21 - Divertimento in Eb for 2 Horns and String Quartet (a very popular combination in those days)
Hob VIId:3 Concerto in D for Horn, 2 Oboes & Strings
Hob IV:5 Divertimento à tre in Eb for Horn, Violin & Cello (yup, that's a Horn Trio)
Hob II:22 Divertimento in D for 2 Horns & String Quartet

This is a super disk for lovers of the natural horn and Haydn in general. :)

(http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/B000002BZN.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_AA240_.jpg)

8)

I had just been listening to that one, Gurn. I can just play Hadyn all day long with only a slight need of Mozart in the mid-early afternoon!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2013, 08:28:46 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 18, 2013, 07:55:56 AM
You really prefer Norrington's first record to his one with the Stuttgart?

For me this symphony (The Mlitary) is for ever linked to two old performances, Van Beinum and Fricsay. Those were the two Haydn symphony performances which convinced me to take Haydn really seriously as a composer, and to some extent Van Beinum's especially really formed my taste in Haydn - sudden unexpected bursts of intense unpredictable threatening manic energy.

I recall well my excitement when I first discovered this serious angular way to play the music - no more "papa".

YMMV :)

Back in the early 1960's, my father had a LP with 94 & 100 on it. I played it ad infinitum until eventually it gave up the ghost (I was no surgeon at 12). I don't know the players to this day, but it was a fine performance, and sold me on Haydn even then. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2013, 08:32:38 AM

Quote from: HenselFlaeder on October 18, 2013, 08:02:34 AM
I had just been listening to that one, Gurn. I can just play Haydn all day long with only a slight need of Mozart in the mid-early afternoon!

Yes, I wrote that post long ago, but my opinion of the disk hasn't changed an iota. Everyone should have it. :)

Why people think there is little or no difference between Mozart & Haydn's music is a mystery to me. They both have their attractions, but they are rarely of the same order. 0:)

Welcome to the Haus.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on October 18, 2013, 09:58:53 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2013, 08:28:46 AM

YMMV :)

Back in the early 1960's, my father had a LP with 94 & 100 on it. I played it ad infinitum until eventually it gave up the ghost (I was no surgeon at 12). I don't know the players to this day, but it was a fine performance, and sold me on Haydn even then. :)

8)

This seems like a likely candidate for that LP.

http://www.cdandlp.com/item/2/0-1406-0-1-0/116129400/haydn-wiener-symphoniker-sawallisch-symphony-94-'surprise'-100-'military'.html

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2013, 10:02:36 AM

Quote from: Daverz on October 18, 2013, 09:58:53 AM
This seems like a likely candidate for that LP.

http://www.cdandlp.com/item/2/0-1406-0-1-0/116129400/haydn-wiener-symphoniker-sawallisch-symphony-94-'surprise'-100-'military'.html

Entirely possible, Dave. The cover pic looks different, but it's been almost 50 years! :) Thanks!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 18, 2013, 11:44:37 AM

Mandryka, do you enjoy other approaches (to the Military) now or do you find yourself locked into those two?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 18, 2013, 12:57:45 PM

Quote from: DavidW on October 18, 2013, 11:44:37 AM
Mandryka, do you enjoy other approaches (to the Military) now or do you find yourself locked into those two?

Brüggen. I really like his weightiness.

I also have a very interesting one from Harnoncourt, unpublished, with SWR Sinfonieorchester in 1984.

.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on October 18, 2013, 03:59:47 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2013, 05:30:42 PM
Well, the one I have in my master set is Minkowski, the only one of that box that made it to the final cut. They flat play the hell out of it, just the way I like it. Probably my second favorite is Norrington. Brüggen, Kuijken & Hogwood are all chasing right up behind, but none match Minkowski for the excitement in the performance, maybe because it is live instead of studio? :)

It's incredible how much I hate everything conducted by Minkowski. In my view Minkowski is dramatically lesser gifted than almost everyone who have conducted Haydn on period instruments. His only purpose seems to be to assert a sort of brutal vitality, with no respect for any kind of nuance, irony or deepness. >:(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 18, 2013, 04:17:13 PM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on October 18, 2013, 03:59:47 PM
It's incredible how much I hate everything conducted by Minkowski. In my view Minkowski is dramatically lesser gifted than almost everyone who have conducted Haydn on period instruments. His only purpose seems to be to assert a sort of brutal vitality, with no respect for any kind of nuance, irony or deepness. >:(

You must really hate his Rameau. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 18, 2013, 04:23:00 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 18, 2013, 04:17:13 PM
You must really hate his Rameau. :)

I enjoy what I have of Minkowski's Handel opera recordings (three of them). He definitely holds his own when compared to other big guns. (I'm a big fan if his recording of Hercules). But that's the only Minkowski I have.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2013, 04:24:15 PM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on October 18, 2013, 03:59:47 PM
It's incredible how much I hate everything conducted by Minkowski. In my view Minkowski is dramatically lesser gifted than almost everyone who have conducted Haydn on period instruments. His only purpose seems to be to assert a sort of brutal vitality, with no respect for any kind of nuance, irony or deepness. >:(

I'm sorry you have such a negative response to Minkowski. I can see where you are coming from, although I am not pushed so perilously close to the edge by him as you are, obviously. Still, using 1 out of 12 symphonies isn't to say that I dote on him myself. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on October 18, 2013, 04:25:55 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 18, 2013, 04:17:13 PM
You must really hate his Rameau. :)

Actually, one of my favorite pieces by Rameau, it's also my favorite way to prove the ineptitude of Minkowski as conductor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKvd4tMkFHc

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on October 18, 2013, 04:31:22 PM

Today's Haus News!

Listened to DRD disc # 19 and # 31. More gems, of course! :)

Disc 19

Symphony No. 50 in C major "Der Gotterrat"
Symphony No. 55 in E flat major "Der Schulmeister"
Symphony No. 54 in G major

Disc 31

Symphony No. 91 in E flat major
Symphony No. 92 in G major "Oxford"

8 discs so far. Only 29 more to go! ;D Fabulous!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on October 18, 2013, 04:34:25 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2013, 04:24:15 PM
I'm sorry you have such a negative response to Minkowski. I can see where you are coming from, although I am not pushed so perilously close to the edge by him as you are, obviously. Still, using 1 out of 12 symphonies isn't to say that I dote on him myself. :)

8)

It was written in bronze, dear Gurn: One day this disciple had to abandon the path of his mentor. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2013, 04:35:50 PM

Quote from: ChamberNut on October 18, 2013, 04:31:22 PM
Today's Haus News!

Listened to DRD disc # 19 and # 31. More gems, of course! :)

Disc 19

Symphony No. 50 in C major "Der Gotterrat"
Symphony No. 55 in E flat major "Der Schulmeister"
Symphony No. 54 in G major

Disc 31

Symphony No. 91 in E flat major
Symphony No. 92 in G major "Oxford"

8 discs so far. Only 29 more to go! ;D Fabulous!

Ah, some beauties there! Of course, I don't play favorites, but some of my favorites number among that group. Won't name names, can't make me.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on October 18, 2013, 04:39:16 PM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on October 18, 2013, 04:23:00 PM
I enjoy what I have of Minkowski's Handel opera recordings (three of them). He definitely holds his own when compared to other big guns. (I'm a big fan if his recording of Hercules). But that's the only Minkowski I have.

I have heard this from other reliable people, too. Unfortunately, excepting his instrumental output, I'm not a Händel fan.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2013, 04:43:35 PM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on October 18, 2013, 04:34:25 PM
It was written in bronze, dear Gurn: One day this disciple had to abandon the path of his mentor. :)

Mais oui, Young Gordo. If everyone's tastes were precisely congruent we would all listen to obscure Late Romantic orchestral music and write long posts to ourselves about it. But no, certainly not. Here, the boldest among us even strike out for the Baroque. With predictable results. ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on October 18, 2013, 04:54:54 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2013, 04:43:35 PM
Mais oui, Young Gordo. If everyone's tastes were precisely congruent we would all listen to obscure Late Romantic orchestral music and write long posts to ourselves about it. But no, certainly not. Here, the boldest among us even strike out for the Baroque. With predictable results. ;)

8)

No doubt, Gurn. I can even enjoy some "old crap" here and there, as - I think- I have given up the superstition of "progress". ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2013, 05:00:25 PM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on October 18, 2013, 04:54:54 PM
No doubt, Gurn. I can even enjoy some "old crap" here and there, as - I think- I have given up the superstition of "progress". ;D

If forward progress is a superstition, doesn't that mean that its negative is also? :) Although if you are pointing out the overtly obvious "it's all downhill from there", I am clearly on board with it; one need only define where 'there' is. >:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on October 18, 2013, 06:22:53 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2013, 05:00:25 PM
If forward progress is a superstition, doesn't that mean that its negative is also? :) Although if you are pointing out the overtly obvious "it's all downhill from there", I am clearly on board with it; one need only define where 'there' is. >:D

My standpoint is quite simple, childishly simple, indeed: Progress does not exist in human creation of beauty things. The Beauty is waiting for us everywhere; unexpectedly, for instance, in unknown old recordings covered by dust or, as we know too much well, in works composed three or four hundred years ago. But it does not mean to state a special faith in the past because exactly the same assertion is true about future... Case to case is the only infallible rule. The problem? We have no time and so we need to choose quite arbitrarily our preferences and guiding criteria because life is too much short. Personally, I chose believing in the superiority of the XVIII Century, Bach and Haydn but -who knows- maybe I would be equally rewarded if I had chosen, say, the XVII Century or exclusively Purcell and his English contemporaries. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 18, 2013, 06:39:57 PM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on October 18, 2013, 06:22:53 PM
Progress does not exist in human creation of beauty things.

I dunno. This has the look of denial.

That childishly simple, I think the thesis indefensible.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 18, 2013, 06:46:05 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 18, 2013, 12:57:45 PM
Brüggen. I really like his weightiness.

I also have a very interesting one from Harnoncourt, unpublished, with SWR Sinfonieorchester in 1984.

.

I wish Bruggen were more easily available, he deserves to remain in print. His Schubert cycle is excellent. I want to hear more of his conducting.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 18, 2013, 06:52:21 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 18, 2013, 06:39:57 PM
I dunno. This has the look of denial.

That childishly simple, I think the thesis indefensible.

I think Gordon is making a valid point. Even if you posit some abstract Platonic Idea of Beauty, you can't say that humans are moving towards attaining it from a less beautiful past. Otherwise you'd be saying that Corigliano's Violin Concerto is inherently more beautiful than Tchaikovsky's. Well, perhaps it is, but if it is, it's not because it has some privileged position in terms of chronology. And most forms of beauty, even within a single field of human endeavor, can't be compared for beauty. "Is Mahler's Ninth more beautiful than Palestrina's Missa Papa Marcellae?" is to ask a question that can't be answered, except perhaps in overtly subjective terms. You can't even rightly ask if a symphony by Beethoven or Brahms is more "beautiful" than a symphony by Haydn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2013, 07:17:22 PM

As a rule, humans are inherently incapable of viewing a progression as other than improvement from one to the next. The words aren't even readily available to adequately express the concept otherwise. 'Progress' itself is a synonym to 'improvement'. That is, if one posits 'progress' to be inseparable from continued improvement. Which most people do, I think.

On this specific topic, I have micro-cosmically addressed the idea that the progression of Haydn's music isn't indicative of an improvement in quality, per se, but rather it is an extended series of developments of different facets of the musical language. So even if you prefer the late symphonies to the early ones, that doesn't mean they are qualitatively better, it means that they are speaking a language which strikes a deeper chord with you. The early works were just as mature within their own style as the later works in theirs. A gradual improvement from first to last is actually non-existent. There is an accretion of new concepts being developed and incorporated until the work sounds like something different, but this doesn't invalidate the quality of what came before. What you are really experiencing is a move into a style range that is more comfortable to you and speaks to you.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on October 18, 2013, 10:06:02 PM

I dunno. I haven't heard many really REALLY great pop albums since 2004. It's all downhill.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 18, 2013, 10:07:27 PM

Quote from: DavidW on October 18, 2013, 06:46:05 PM
I wish Bruggen were more easily available, he deserves to remain in print. His Schubert cycle is excellent. I want to hear more of his conducting.

But it is easily available, it's even on spotify and googleplay. I think you have to get used to the idea that the compact disc is dead.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on October 19, 2013, 04:58:52 AM

Quote from: orfeo on October 18, 2013, 10:06:02 PM
I dunno. I haven't heard many really REALLY great pop albums since 2004. It's all downhill.

Keane's Under the Iron Sea, Foxy Shazam's Self titled Album and Foxy Shazam's Welcome to the Church of Rock and Roll are (IMO) three REALLY great post 2004 pop albums. However, I would certainly agree with anyone who said that there was a general decline in the quality of pop music after about 1994.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 19, 2013, 05:14:24 AM

You make a valid point, Jeffrey, and if that was Gordon's point, I heartily wish he had made it, and confined himself to it 8)

There is the avuncular assurance (here, alas! a little disingenuous) that the matter is "childishly simple," yet in that brief statement, he loads negative baggage onto the word "progress" which is absolutely unchildlike.

Your point, that the Beautiful of its nature is timeless, and the idea of Progress does not apply, is (I should think) a given. But the assertion that there is no progress in the practice of art? (For the "childish simplicity" here strikes me as little more than lassitude.) Not the reasonably nuanced "there are aspects of the progress which I find æsthetically questionable," but just, "nope, ain't no sech thing."

In the Art of Music, alone, there are myriad facets of progress. (What, the fully chromatic concert harp is not an instance of progress? And once we acknowledge the obvious -- that it is progress -- is there anyone present who has a serious æsthetic problem with it?)

Let's bring this back to the thread topic. Who among us Haydn enthusiasts seriously believes that our "Papa" did not make progress in his practice of composition over a long and wonderfully productive career? Who denies that exposure to "Papa's" string quartets was a catalyst (I think I use that correctly) for progress in Mozart's composition

I shall pause and wait for an answer ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on October 19, 2013, 05:29:22 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 18, 2013, 10:07:27 PM
But it is easily available, it's even on spotify and googleplay. I think you have to get used to the idea that the compact disc is dead.

Only when the alternatives stop being shitty. Cf everything I've said on the thread about spotify. If THAT'S the future, they'll be prising CDs out of my cold, dead hands.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2013, 06:31:36 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 19, 2013, 05:14:24 AM
You make a valid point, Jeffrey, and if that was Gordon's point, I heartily wish he had made it, and confined himself to it 8)

There is the avuncular assurance (here, alas! a little disingenuous) that the matter is "childishly simple," yet in that brief statement, he loads negative baggage onto the word "progress" which is absolutely unchildlike.

Your point, that the Beautiful of its nature is timeless, and the idea of Progress does not apply, is (I should think) a given. But the assertion that there is no progress in the practice of art? (For the "childish simplicity" here strikes me as little more than lassitude.) Not the reasonably nuanced "there are aspects of the progress which I find æsthetically questionable," but just, "nope, ain't no sech thing."

In the Art of Music, alone, there are myriad facets of progress. (What, the fully chromatic concert harp is not an instance of progress? And once we acknowledge the obvious -- that it is progress -- is there anyone present who has a serious æsthetic problem with it?)

Let's bring this back to the thread topic. Who among us Haydn enthusiasts seriously believes that our "Papa" did not make progress in his practice of composition over a long and wonderfully productive career? Who denies that exposure to "Papa's" string quartets was a catalyst (I think I use that correctly) for progress in Mozart's composition

I shall pause and wait for an answer ;D

Clearly you hadn't read my post yet, since it could be easily construed from it that I don't necessarily believe those things en masse. :)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2013, 07:17:22 PM
As a rule, humans are inherently incapable of viewing a progression as other than improvement from one to the next. The words aren't even readily available to adequately express the concept otherwise. 'Progress' itself is a synonym to 'improvement'. That is, if one posits 'progress' to be inseparable from continued improvement. Which most people do, I think.

On this specific topic, I have micro-cosmically addressed the idea that the progression of Haydn's music isn't indicative of an improvement in quality, per se, but rather it is an extended series of developments of different facets of the musical language. So even if you prefer the late symphonies to the early ones, that doesn't mean they are qualitatively better, it means that they are speaking a language which strikes a deeper chord with you. The early works were just as mature within their own style as the later works in theirs. A gradual improvement from first to last is actually non-existent. There is an accretion of new concepts being developed and incorporated until the work sounds like something different, but this doesn't invalidate the quality of what came before. What you are really experiencing is a move into a style range that is more comfortable to you and speaks to you.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on October 19, 2013, 06:37:15 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 18, 2013, 10:07:27 PM
But it is easily available, it's even on spotify and googleplay. I think you have to get used to the idea that the compact disc is dead.

Quote from: orfeo on October 19, 2013, 05:29:22 AM
Only when the alternatives stop being shitty. Cf everything I've said on the thread about spotify. If THAT'S the future, they'll be prising CDs out of my cold, dead hands.

The claim that the CD is dead is absurd. The download/streaming culture has certainly eclipsed high quality audio formats for pop music. But serious listeners are not going to abandon the CD until the non-physical-media alternatives achieve equivalent quality, which at the moment is limited to lossless downloads which a few of the record labels currently make available. I have a few of those, but they are currently more awkward to use than the physical media.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on October 19, 2013, 06:44:41 AM

If the CD is dead, I'm a necrophiliac.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2013, 06:50:19 AM

Quote from: North Star on October 19, 2013, 06:44:41 AM
I'm a necrophiliac.

We try to minimize our fetishes here in Da Haus, although that northern climate in known to do some strange things... :D

In any case, on topic, I agree. The download/streaming business is going to have to come up with something really good to get me to un-ass my CD's and move into the imaginary music world. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on October 19, 2013, 06:58:56 AM

To return to the topic at hand, next year is the 80th anniversary of Bruggen's birth, so I'm hoping for re-release of his Philips recordings, including the Haydn. I have his Philips DUO releases of the London Symphonies and one original Philips release including Symphonies 88 and 89 (I think). But there is more worth hearing.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2013, 07:11:45 AM

Quote from: Scarpia on October 19, 2013, 06:58:56 AM
To return to the topic at hand, next year is the 80th anniversary of Bruggen's birth, so I'm hoping for re-release of his Philips recordings, including the Haydn. I have his Philips DUO releases of the London Symphonies and one original Philips release including Symphonies 88 and 89 (I think). But there is more worth hearing.

I have a very attractive 10 disk box on Decca called 'The Art of Frans Brüggen' with Rameau, Bach, Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert & Mendelssohn. The Haydn is Symphonies 96, 100 & 104.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/ArtofBruumlggenbox_zpsd9c9a429.jpg)

Certainly it is the basis for an expanded edition. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on October 19, 2013, 07:27:40 AM

I would say that in the early Haydn music is some special quality which is absent in hi later works. Late Haydn built incomparable wondrous machines to achieve his goals, but early Haydn made it with one click.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on October 19, 2013, 07:28:31 AM

Isn't Haydn ahead of Brian now?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2013, 07:33:19 AM

Quote from: mszczuj on October 19, 2013, 07:27:40 AM
I would say that in the early Haydn music is some special quality which is absent in hi later works. Late Haydn built incomparable wondrous machines to achieve his goals, but early Haydn made it with one click.

That works for me, I know exactly what you are saying. :)

Quote from: mszczuj on October 19, 2013, 07:28:31 AM
Isn't Haydn ahead of Brian now?

We mustn't taunt, mszczuj. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 19, 2013, 07:43:51 AM

I've Brüggen's set of Sturm und Drang symphonies plus 90, 93, 101, 103....all very good performances.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/ngmg/Haydn103.jpg) (http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/ngmg/haydn9093br_ggen.jpg)
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan11/haydnsturmbr_ggen.jpg)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on October 19, 2013, 07:45:25 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2013, 06:50:19 AM
We try our fetishes here in Da Haus with something really good...

See how easy it is to quote out of context. ;)
It looks like your fetish is Haydn - no surprises there...
Enough.

I'm not sure if I should get the DRD box, since I tend to prefer HIP, lightness and lively tempi and rhythms - the Weil box would seem to be a better idea, even if it's only 7 CD's - or perhaps that's another benefit.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on October 19, 2013, 07:47:31 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 19, 2013, 05:14:24 AM
You make a valid point, Jeffrey, and if that was Gordon's point, I heartily wish he had made it, and confined himself to it 8)

There is the avuncular assurance (here, alas! a little disingenuous) that the matter is "childishly simple," yet in that brief statement, he loads negative baggage onto the word "progress" which is absolutely unchildlike.

Your point, that the Beautiful of its nature is timeless, and the idea of Progress does not apply, is (I should think) a given. But the assertion that there is no progress in the practice of art? (For the "childish simplicity" here strikes me as little more than lassitude.) Not the reasonably nuanced "there are aspects of the progress which I find æsthetically questionable," but just, "nope, ain't no sech thing."

In the Art of Music, alone, there are myriad facets of progress. (What, the fully chromatic concert harp is not an instance of progress? And once we acknowledge the obvious -- that it is progress -- is there anyone present who has a serious æsthetic problem with it?)

Let's bring this back to the thread topic. Who among us Haydn enthusiasts seriously believes that our "Papa" did not make progress in his practice of composition over a long and wonderfully productive career? Who denies that exposure to "Papa's" string quartets was a catalyst (I think I use that correctly) for progress in Mozart's composition

I shall pause and wait for an answer ;D

Your idea of "progress" is frankly naive, Karl; not childish, but naive and unelaborated. There is a lot of writings about this notion, starting with the famous "Quarrel of the Ancients and the Moderns" and gallons of ink used to criticize the notion of "indefinite progress" defended by the Enlightenment.

It's impossible to discuss anything without a minimum consensus about the meaning of the words used.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 19, 2013, 07:53:19 AM

Quote from: mszczuj on October 19, 2013, 07:28:31 AM
Isn't Haydn ahead of Brian now?

Only in number of replies. Brian is still significantly ahead in number of views (8000+ more views than Haydn). In any case, having Brian and Haydn first and second in terms of popularity suits me nicely 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on October 19, 2013, 07:55:58 AM

Quote from: North Star on October 19, 2013, 07:45:25 AMI'm not sure if I should get the DRD box, since I tend to prefer HIP, lightness and lively tempi and rhythms.

As far as I am concerned, it has all of that, just not on period instruments.

In any case, a reissue of this would be most welcome.

[asin]B00006IU8V[/asin]

It is a mystery to me, with all of the box sets, Bruggen is neglected (unless they're saving it all for his 80th birthday).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 19, 2013, 08:05:38 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 19, 2013, 07:43:51 AM
I've Brüggen's set of Sturm und Drang symphonies plus 90, 93, 101, 103....all very good performances.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/ngmg/Haydn103.jpg) (http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/ngmg/haydn9093br_ggen.jpg)
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan11/haydnsturmbr_ggen.jpg)

Sarge

There's some very fine live Bruggen Haydn on symphonyshare, an 82 and an excellent 101. The 101 is particularly fine. I like his heaviness, but if you demand energetic performances then he's not going to be your man. I've never got on with his commercial Paris and Sturm und Drang Symphonies as much as his London symphonies, which is probably my favourite recordings of those late symphonies -- despite the fact that he makes Haydn sound like Beethoven. MAybe I should retry the other studio Haydn some time.

Another Haydn CD he made, worth investigating maybe, is this. I would say that in 84 I much prefer Harnoncourt

(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/Mjk3WDMwMA==/$(KGrHqF,!n8E63WLm)fpBP!sgVzzWw~~60_35.JPG)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 19, 2013, 09:11:57 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 19, 2013, 08:05:38 AMI like his heaviness, but if you demand energetic performances then he's not going to be your man. I've never got on with his commercial Paris and Sturm und Drang Symphonies as much as his London symphonies, which is probably my favourite recordings of those late symphonies -- despite the fact that he makes Haydn sound like Beethoven. MAybe I should retry the other studio Haydn some time.

True, Brüggen is less stressful than other conductors in this music ;) lacking a certain drive. And one is very aware there is a conductor controlling proceedings with phrasing that seems more appropriate to the following century. Nonetheless, it's a way I enjoy hearing these symphonies...sometimes. Certainly they are unfailingly beautiful performances.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2013, 09:44:12 AM

Quote from: North Star on October 19, 2013, 07:45:25 AM
See how easy it is to quote out of context. ;)
It looks like your fetish is Haydn - no surprises there...
Enough.

I'm not sure if I should get the DRD box, since I tend to prefer HIP, lightness and lively tempi and rhythms - the Weil box would seem to be a better idea, even if it's only 7 CD's - or perhaps that's another benefit.

The Weil box is an outstanding choice. I had the singles and bought the box anyway, just in case. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2013, 09:48:09 AM

Quote from: Scarpia on October 19, 2013, 07:55:58 AM
As far as I am concerned, it has all of that, just not on period instruments.

In any case, a reissue of this would be most welcome.

[asin]B00006IU8V[/asin]

It is a mystery to me, with all of the box sets, Bruggen is neglected (unless they're saving it all for his 80th birthday).

Agreed. During the extended period when I was shopping for it, the best price was $180. I even made David Ross an offer (refused!). :D

I have the complete contents of that box, but in 6 or 7 various other boxes. Hardly tidy. A reissue is way overdue. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 19, 2013, 11:44:19 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 18, 2013, 10:07:27 PM
But it is easily available, it's even on spotify and googleplay.

I believe that you are mistaken. Bruggen's set of London Symphonies is not available on google play, nor is it available on itunes or amazon mp3.

Quote
I think you have to get used to the idea that the compact disc is dead.

I certainly don't have to get used to something that is obviously false! Look at the current marketshare for music, and you will see that the cd is still a popular format and far, far, far, far from being dead.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 19, 2013, 12:09:40 PM

Quote from: DavidW on October 19, 2013, 11:44:19 AM
I believe that you are mistaken. Bruggen's set of London Symphonies is not available on google play, nor is it available on itunes or amazon mp3.

Oh sorry, they're on spotify, and as mp3 through amazon in the uk, so I assumed you could get them where you are. If you want I'll upload them onto symphonyshare.

Has anyone read Dean Sutcliffe's book on op50?

(http://covers.ebooks.com/000/0006/000637/000637251/000637251.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on October 19, 2013, 01:27:33 PM

Quote from: Scarpia on October 19, 2013, 07:55:58 AM
As far as I am concerned, it has all of that, just not on period instruments.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2013, 09:44:12 AM
The Weil box is an outstanding choice. I had the singles and bought the box anyway, just in case. :)

8)

Hmm, will have to think about this..

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2013, 02:03:18 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 19, 2013, 12:09:40 PM

Has anyone read Dean Sutcliffe's book on op50?

(http://covers.ebooks.com/000/0006/000637/000637251/000637251.jpg)

Yes, it's a fine book, not only analyzes the music, but gives a nice historiographical review. I bought it along with the score (all I could get at the time was the Dover, but I was good with that), and had an enjoyable time with the Tokyo Quartet.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2013, 02:04:56 PM

Quote from: North Star on October 19, 2013, 01:27:33 PM
Hmm, will have to think about this..

Not really.

Or at least I wouldn't. Of course, I have no slight interest in another complete set (on MI), and I already know that the Weil is excellent, so it's easy for me to say that. >:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on October 19, 2013, 02:27:06 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2013, 02:04:56 PM
Not really.

Or at least I wouldn't. Of course, I have no slight interest in another complete set (on MI), and I already know that the Weil is excellent, so it's easy for me to say that. >:D

8)

Alright, alright, but then I have only three Haydn symphonies on disc at the moment.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sammy on October 19, 2013, 02:30:24 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 18, 2013, 10:07:27 PM
But it is easily available, it's even on spotify and googleplay. I think you have to get used to the idea that the compact disc is dead.

Fortunately, your statement is baloney.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 19, 2013, 02:37:49 PM

I suppose Mandryka each of us will have to be careful about speaking of digital downloads in the context of region since what is available in one region is not in another. I look forward to a future in which that is not true. I'm glad that at least those restrictions do not exist for cd sales. 0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 19, 2013, 02:45:25 PM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on October 19, 2013, 07:47:31 AM
Your idea of "progress" is frankly naive, Karl; not childish, but naive and unelaborated. There is a lot of writings about this notion, starting with the famous "Quarrel of the Ancients and the Moderns" and gallons of ink used to criticize the notion of "indefinite progress" defended by the Enlightenment.

It's impossible to discuss anything without a minimum consensus about the meaning of the words used.

I note that you have not addressed any of my points. I thank you for conceding them. Your fencing here also underscores my point about your disingenuousness. I thank you for that, as well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 19, 2013, 02:47:18 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2013, 09:44:12 AM
The Weil box is an outstanding choice.

Indeed!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on October 19, 2013, 04:08:47 PM

Quote from: North Star on October 19, 2013, 06:44:41 AM
If the CD is dead, I'm a necrophiliac.

This needs to be made into a sticker I can buy.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on October 19, 2013, 04:14:19 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 19, 2013, 12:09:40 PM
Oh sorry, they're on spotify, and as mp3 through amazon in the uk, so I assumed you could get them where you are.

...aaaaaand you just hit on one of the chief reasons for sticking with CDs. See a CD you like in a store in the USA, UK, Canada, South Africa, Poland, Japan? No problem. See a track you like on a digital store in another country? Tough.

When an Australian can buy a Japanese performance on a Swedish record label from a store in the Netherlands in a lossless format, then call me. And not before.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on October 19, 2013, 04:20:26 PM

To be more topical, I have a question about the piano trios. At first glance it looks as if complete sets of the piano trios tend to ignore the flute in the 3 flute trios, because they have violinist handy. Is that correct, or am I just reading websites that don't bother mentioning a flautist?

Beaux Arts for example, and Trio 1790 was another one. I'm not sure what other complete sets there are.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 19, 2013, 04:23:56 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 19, 2013, 05:14:24 AM
You make a valid point, Jeffrey, and if that was Gordon's point, I heartily wish he had made it, and confined himself to it 8)

There is the avuncular assurance (here, alas! a little disingenuous) that the matter is "childishly simple," yet in that brief statement, he loads negative baggage onto the word "progress" which is absolutely unchildlike.

Your point, that the Beautiful of its nature is timeless, and the idea of Progress does not apply, is (I should think) a given. But the assertion that there is no progress in the practice of art? (For the "childish simplicity" here strikes me as little more than lassitude.) Not the reasonably nuanced "there are aspects of the progress which I find æsthetically questionable," but just, "nope, ain't no sech thing."

In the Art of Music, alone, there are myriad facets of progress. (What, the fully chromatic concert harp is not an instance of progress? And once we acknowledge the obvious -- that it is progress -- is there anyone present who has a serious æsthetic problem with it?)

Let's bring this back to the thread topic. Who among us Haydn enthusiasts seriously believes that our "Papa" did not make progress in his practice of composition over a long and wonderfully productive career? Who denies that exposure to "Papa's" string quartets was a catalyst (I think I use that correctly) for progress in Mozart's composition

I shall pause and wait for an answer ;D

I am not sure that I agree with you. If you were to substitute the word 'development' for the word 'progress', I think I could agree without issue. But progress - what is progress in this contect? I'm reminded of the story in Stephen Covey's book, where someone climbs a tree only to see the road is not being built to the destination. He comes down and explains they are going in the wrong direction, but everyone keeps going in the same direction, because they are making so much progress. Progress is too subjective for me, as it implies a direction that is more desired or desireable. Development is more neutral in this respect. Maybe the development is bad, but it is development nonetheless.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on October 19, 2013, 04:24:50 PM

Quote from: orfeo on October 19, 2013, 04:08:47 PM
This needs to be made into a sticker I can buy.

A sure fire chick magnet . . . in a graveyard.

:P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2013, 04:26:00 PM

AFAIK, the BAT is the only group who performs these works using the optional violin instead of the flute. Trio 1790 simply skip them altogether (there are some wonderful options if you want a list). Another group that says they use the violin is the Van Sweiten Trio on Brilliant, but in the event, they use the flute also. I got rid of my BAT years ago, before this became an issue for me, so I can't swear that they do it on a fiddle, but I completely believe so, I have no memory of it being any other way. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2013, 04:32:30 PM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 19, 2013, 04:23:56 PM
I am not sure that I agree with you. If you were to substitute the word 'development' for the word 'progress', I think I could agree without issue. But progress - what is progress in this contect? I'm reminded of the story in Stephen Covey's book, where someone climbs a tree only to see the road is not being built to the destination. He comes down and explains they are going in the wrong direction, but everyone keeps going in the same direction, because they are making so much progress. Progress is too subjective for me, as it implies a direction that is more desired or desireable. Development is more neutral in this respect. Maybe the development is bad, but it is development nonetheless.

Perhaps you will look at my post and see if it says the same as you are doing. To me, the entire idea of some inexorable journey towards eventual perfection (if taken to the n^th degree) is wrong headed. Speaking of Haydn's career specifically, I think that the works he produced in the late 1750's were fully developed within the constraints of art as it existed in the late 1750's. They are not some misbegotten or immature stepping stone on the road to Classicism. And while no one here has said that, I put it out there because it has been the prevailing belief since the early 19th century, and even now is taught, albeit indirectly, in music history courses. It reminds me of Creationism.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2013, 04:33:55 PM

Quote from: George on October 19, 2013, 04:30:42 PM
I have (AND ADORE) the BAT set, so I can check if you give me the Hob #'s.

15, 16 & 17, George.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2013, 04:42:43 PM

Quote from: George on October 19, 2013, 04:39:28 PM
Yes, they are in there. (and as with the rest, played by a violin, cello and piano)

Thanks, George. Actually, only 2 of them are "violin optional", the 3rd is flute obbligato. But we'll let them slide with that. They are so good, after all. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on October 19, 2013, 04:50:00 PM

Hang on, are you sure the Trio 1790 skip them? I could have sworn that when I did a search they came up...

...ah yes. Faulty search that assumed that anything called 'complete' piano trios would have, you know, all the piano trios!

As for options for the flute trios, yes please. The one I immediately noticed as easy to get hold of would be the Naxos one (Grodd, Rummel and Hinterhuber) but feel free to tell me all your best, esoteric choices! ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2013, 04:53:10 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on October 19, 2013, 04:39:08 PM
Still composition is a craft. Someone of Haydn's caliber could not help but learn from his practice over time and perfect the craft of his composition. But all change is not progress. I forget who said that, but it is true.

Yes, certainly the craftsman gets better with time, develops new ideas, abandons old ones etc. But does that constitute a qualitative change in the music? I suppose that would be the point of contention. However it misses the bigger point, that traditional musicology from the time of Haydn's death has labeled all of his earlier works, before the Op 33 quartets to be precise, as being deficient in some way. Full Classicism was only achieved at that point. And they go further in saying that this is what Haydn was striving for! Which is only now coming to be regarded as the bullshit that it really is. I am positing that each work at whatever time it was composed took full advantage of the composers art, within the framework of what that art comprised at the time. They were no "stepping stones" to anything! That is historical revisionism and ex post facto twisting of reality to fit a philosophy. I would like to go back in time to when he completed Op 33 and tell him 'I say, old man, you've just invented Classicism!'. To which he would of course, say 'Cool, I always wanted to do that'. ::)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2013, 05:01:59 PM

Quote from: orfeo on October 19, 2013, 04:50:00 PM
Hang on, are you sure the Trio 1790 skip them? I could have sworn that when I did a search they came up...

...ah yes. Faulty search that assumed that anything called 'complete' piano trios would have, you know, all the piano trios!

As for options for the flute trios, yes please. The one I immediately noticed as easy to get hold of would be the Naxos one (Grodd, Rummel and Hinterhuber) but feel free to tell me all your best, esoteric choices! ;)

Not esoteric, but my favorites are La Gaia Scienza on Winter & Winter;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnLaGaiaFluteTrioscover_zps01e18e2e.jpg)

If you have good sources for cpo, you can do what I did when I first realized that the flute trios weren't going to be on the 1790 disk;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnCamerataKoumllnTrioscover_zps05f1ee7f.jpg)

Both of those are excellent. With interesting things thrown in too.

If neither of those appeals to you, let me know, I have about 4 or 5 more, all of which are very good!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 19, 2013, 05:17:16 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2013, 04:32:30 PM
Perhaps you will look at my post and see if it says the same as you are doing. To me, the entire idea of some inexorable journey towards eventual perfection (if taken to the n^th degree) is wrong headed. Speaking of Haydn's career specifically, I think that the works he produced in the late 1750's were fully developed within the constraints of art as it existed in the late 1750's. They are not some misbegotten or immature stepping stone on the road to Classicism. And while no one here has said that, I put it out there because it has been the prevailing belief since the early 19th century, and even now is taught, albeit indirectly, in music history courses. It reminds me of Creationism.... :)

8)

It does seem we are in the same vein. But I do think composers generally improve as they write, not because the ability is any different, but because they are building upon experiences that help them write something that more closely matches their vision. I should add that these newer pieces are not necessarily better.

I CAN say this about progress - I am making very little, as I recently made a purchase which included a composer I swore I would not buy more of for at least a few years as I already have so much of his, but how could I resist this at Berkshire (at least, I think it's this one)...
[asin]B00475Q1W0[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2013, 05:20:45 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on October 19, 2013, 05:02:35 PM
A composer learns his craft by composing. And over time will gain more and more knowledge about and control of the writing. What this means is he will more consistently achieve the music he imagines in his mind. But we are really talking about different things: you are talking about styles and I am talking about a mastery of the skill of composing. Transferring what Haydn heard in his mind (both early on and later in his career) to paper and in a manner which performers would interpret as he imagined it is all bound up in his craft. We can never know what Haydn thought of his early works, but I would guess that he might recognize some places where (knowing what he knew later in life composing) he might re-write since at an earlier stage he was not as skilled at capturing what he heard in his head and what he put done on paper..

Yes, that's why I wasn't arguing with you, I was merely trying to explain my point. I will take it a step further since you have clarified it a bit, it is my opinion that when people say "this music is better than that music", they are not really talking about the craftsmanship of the music, but about the combination of style and musical ideas. This is why I don't really consider improvement in technique to be part of 'better', I just sort of take that as a given (without dreaming of saying it doesn't exist!! :o ).

Actually, late in life when he wasn't composing any more, he went through his scores and found things like the Mass in F from 1749. Breitkopf bought all that stuff up. Anyway, he took and added instrumentation (winds etc) to it to 'bring it up to modern standards', as he said. It is MY opinion that the 55 intervening years of learning and experience did nothing at all for the piece, which is perfect with the original scoring of 2 violins & baßo. I say perfect here stylistically, since it has a lot of mistakes in the craftsmanship (parallel 5th and all that stuff), but perfect in its musical ideas and missa brevis style. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2013, 05:26:46 PM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 19, 2013, 05:17:16 PM
It does seem we are in the same vein. But I do think composers generally improve as they write, not because the ability is any different, but because they are building upon experiences that help them write something that more closely matches their vision. I should add that these newer pieces are not necessarily better.

I CAN say this about progress - I am making very little, as I recently made a purchase which included a composer I swore I would not buy more of for at least a few years as I already have so much of his, but how could I resist this at Berkshire (at least, I think it's this one)...
[asin]B00475Q1W0[/asin]

Neal,
Yeah, while you were gone, San and I went down that road, more or less. Certainly craftsmanship is improved, never a doubt. But Haydn was a bottomless well of musical ideas, and his early ideas are every bit as 'good' as his later ones. He just continually developed different means to express them, and as they more closely matched our ideas of what 'ideal' music should be, then the more we can mentally apply the label 'better' to them.

That would appear to be an outstanding CD. Just for fun, you might next time listen with a view of whether you think the musical ideas expressed in 1771, 1781 and 1797 are all equally brilliant. Boy, those are some great quartets there! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 19, 2013, 05:29:28 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2013, 04:53:10 PM
Yes, certainly the craftsman gets better with time, develops new ideas, abandons old ones etc. But does that constitute a qualitative change in the music?

I should find it exceeding strange if the composer himself did not think so. This, though (to address in part, part of your post which I do not here cite), is not to say that the earlier works are necessarily deficient (or necessarily deficient). I do not find anything deficient in even the earliest symphonies, though I think one is straining a point to claim that there was no progress made by the time of the London symphonies.

Where (much though I like the piece) I am inclined to think that there is a deficiency (though not fatal) in, e.g., the Beethoven Op.21 . . . what is the deficiency, exactly? That it is insufficiently . . . like Beethoven, I suppose. In a way that I do not find even the earliest Haydn symphonies to be like himself.

Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 19, 2013, 05:17:16 PM
It does seem we are in the same vein. But I do think composers generally improve as they write, not because the ability is any different, but because they are building upon experiences that help them write something that more closely matches their vision. I should add that these newer pieces are not necessarily better.

An important insight here (my part in the conversation was much delayed, because, hey, I had to work a full day on Saturday). In my view (nor do I think it eccentric), of course the art is Progressing, because there is constantly a greater body of literature behind the creative soul, informing his work. Is a Sibelius symphony "better" than a Beethoven symphony? Qua composition, the question is absurd. (There are facets, probably, whereby the question is not absurd.) This ties in with how ultimately pathetic A Certain Former Member's goal is, of writing "just like Mendelssohn" in the 21^st century (apart from questions, very practical questions, of his notational and compositional competence) was.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 19, 2013, 05:36:41 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 19, 2013, 05:29:28 PM
. . . In a way that I do not find even the earliest Haydn symphonies to be like himself.

Cor, what an infelicitous typo. In a way that I do not find even the earliest Haydn symphonies to be unlike himself, of course I meant.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2013, 05:46:33 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 19, 2013, 05:29:28 PM
I should find it exceeding strange if the composer himself did not think so. This, though (to address in part, part of your post which I do not here cite), is not to say that the earlier works are necessarily deficient (or necessarily deficient). I do not find anything deficient in even the earliest symphonies, though I think one is straining a point to claim that there was no progress made by the time of the London symphonies.

Well, the quality of quality is tough to pin down. The quality of which you speak here (which I agree with you, let it be said) can be illustrated easily enough. Hypothetically, you have the idea for inserting a deceptive cadence at the end of the development. The way you did it in your 2nd symphony is not the way you would do it in your 63rd. That is improved craftsmanship and yes, certainly qualitative improvement. But what I am after here is the idea of using a deceptive cadence there, and the stylistic sense that lets you know it is the right thing to do. The idea is the beginning of the art process. The continuation of the process comes in the style judgement. The execution of it is the culmination. So, what I am saying is that two out of three of these things are equally present from the beginning; the idea and the stylistic sense. The craftsmanship will certainly be improved, I'm just not sure that this constitutes 'better music' with its corollary implication that what came before is deficient. It is difficult for me to express this more clearly, ignorant bastard that I am. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2013, 06:01:22 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on October 19, 2013, 05:56:54 PM
Another saying, "you can't step into the same river twice", meaning in this context that composers will often choose not to revisit a piece of music, especially one from many years prior since it is impossible for them to re-enter their mind of that time. A revision would most likely turn into a brand new work entirely (something that can be observed with Pierre Boulez's successive revisions of earlier works). That said, I don't disagree with you, really, the early music is good for what it is as is the later music, and there is not much point (IMO) in attempting to compare one to the other.

For myself, I actually prefer the earlier style, in general, especially concerning the symphonies.

Yes, indeed you cannot. Given the intervening years, it would be impossible to recapture the muse which led to the original. It is analogous to *shudders* Mahler's "Beethoven's" Ninth. Given Haydn's great age, the distance in time isn't that much different either! :o

I suppose I have already tipped my hand on that score.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on October 19, 2013, 06:11:39 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 19, 2013, 02:45:25 PM
I note that you have not addressed any of my points. I thank you for conceding them. Your fencing here also underscores my point about your disingenuousness. I thank you for that, as well.

I thought your points had been aptly responded by Gurn in Reply #5770; so, I didn't consider necessary to repeat something similar.

Anyway, sorry if my last response was a bit rough, but I think you haven't noticed that "progress" is a notion ideologically biased: It's the assumption that human history is a triumphal march towards the perfection, with every new generation surpassing the achievements and skills of the previous one in every thinkable aspect. If you think this way, well, you're not alone because many illustrious men have thought so; but you should be aware that "progress" is not a "descriptive" notion, but a philosophical one, with its own history and origins in the XVII Century, as I said before, probably during the "Quarrel of the Ancients and the Moderns."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on October 19, 2013, 07:47:41 PM

To qualitatively measure a piece of music, one must first work out what it was trying to achieve. It is pointless to say that piece A doesn't do as good a job as piece B if it wasn't trying to do the same things as piece B.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 19, 2013, 11:08:47 PM

Quote from: North Star on October 19, 2013, 06:44:41 AM
If the CD is dead, I'm a necrophiliac.

Somehow that has reminded me of Anthony Powell's series of novels called Dance to the Music of Time, where one of the characters falls so much in love with a necrophiliac that she kills herself to please him.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 20, 2013, 06:09:07 AM

Quote from: orfeo on October 19, 2013, 07:47:41 PM
To qualitatively measure a piece of music, one must first work out what it was trying to achieve. It is pointless to say that piece A doesn't do as good a job as piece B if it wasn't trying to do the same things as piece B.

This is a good observation and a point that hasn't been raised yet. One of the more interesting topics for essays in the Haydn literature is what consisted the audience for various genres of works at different times. And consequently what aspect of the music arose to meet a specific audience requirement. An example is the loud, attention getting introduction at the beginning of the quartets Op 71/74, since they were being played in a concert hall in London. This stylistic change is clearly tied to a goal (the fact that as a unit of music it dates back at least to the Italian opera overture isn't relevant). I would like to hear some thoughts about other examples. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on October 20, 2013, 07:44:35 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2013, 04:43:35 PM
If everyone's tastes were precisely congruent we would all listen to obscure Late Romantic orchestral music and write long posts to ourselves about it.

Bah, humbug! If everyone's taste were precisely congruent with mine --- thus logically following that everyone's tastes were precisely congruent, period --- obscure Late Romantic orchestral music would get the second prize; the first would go, ex aequo, to obscure Baroque and Classical orchestral music. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on October 20, 2013, 07:50:55 AM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on October 18, 2013, 04:54:54 PM
No doubt, Gurn. I can even enjoy some "old crap" here and there, as - I think- I have given up the superstition of "progress". ;D

The progress has become a superstition more degradant and vile than all those which are fought against in its name. --- Miguel de Unamuno

When a child, Osip Mandelstam burst into violent tears when first hearing the word "progress", according to his wife Nadezhda.

;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on October 20, 2013, 08:20:37 AM

Haydn Project (the non-Emerson SQ one) ;D continues...

Today's 2 discs, # 26 and # 8 of the DRD set.

Disc 26

Symphony No. 76 in E flat major
Symphony No. 77 in B flat major (very sublime Andante sostenuto)
Symphony No. 78 in C minor (fantastic final movement!) :)

Disc 8

Symphony No. 16 in B flat major
Symphony No. 34 in D minor
Symphony No. 72 in D major (beautiful dialogue between flute and violin in the Andante mvt., and gorgeous Andante variations in the final mvt. This symphony REALLY stands out, for me) :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 20, 2013, 08:30:59 AM

Quote from: Florestan on October 20, 2013, 07:44:35 AM
Bah, humbug! If everyone's taste were precisely congruent with mine --- thus logically following that everyone's tastes were precisely congruent, period --- obscure Late Romantic orchestral music would get the second prize; the first would go, ex aequo, to obscure Baroque and Classical orchestral music. ;D

Those two choices were made for larger reasons than arbitrariness though, so we'll have to go with them for now. Did you know that there is more knowledge available about obscure Baroque music than there is about obcscure Classical. Just a nugget I picked up in the great here and there. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 20, 2013, 08:33:19 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on October 20, 2013, 08:20:37 AM
Haydn Project (the non-Emerson SQ one) ;D continues...

Today's 2 discs, # 26 and # 8 of the DRD set.

Disc 26

Symphony No. 76 in E flat major
Symphony No. 77 in B flat major (very sublime Andante sostenuto)
Symphony No. 78 in C minor (fantastic final movement!) :)

Disc 8

Symphony No. 16 in B flat major
Symphony No. 34 in D minor
Symphony No. 72 in D major (beautiful dialogue between flute and violin in the Andante mvt., and gorgeous Andante variations in the final mvt. This symphony REALLY stands out, for me) :)

Another crop of excellence! Another thing about that #72 is that it has 4 horn parts. It is a pair with #31 'Horn-signal' where H took advantage for a short time of having 4 horns available. It was a luxury! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 20, 2013, 11:56:10 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on October 20, 2013, 08:20:37 AM
Haydn Project (the non-Emerson SQ one) ;D continues...

Today's 2 discs, # 26 and # 8 of the DRD set.

Disc 26

Symphony No. 76 in E flat major
Symphony No. 77 in B flat major (very sublime Andante sostenuto)
Symphony No. 78 in C minor (fantastic final movement!) :)

Disc 8

Symphony No. 16 in B flat major
Symphony No. 34 in D minor
Symphony No. 72 in D major (beautiful dialogue between flute and violin in the Andante mvt., and gorgeous Andante variations in the final mvt. This symphony REALLY stands out, for me) :)

Yes, nice crop. The 34 stands out for me as it's one of Haydn's church sonata symphonies with an opening Adagio.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on October 20, 2013, 01:51:05 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 20, 2013, 06:09:07 AM
This is a good observation and a point that hasn't been raised yet. One of the more interesting topics for essays in the Haydn literature is what consisted the audience for various genres of works at different times. And consequently what aspect of the music arose to meet a specific audience requirement. An example is the loud, attention getting introduction at the beginning of the quartets Op 71/74, since they were being played in a concert hall in London. This stylistic change is clearly tied to a goal (the fact that as a unit of music it dates back at least to the Italian opera overture isn't relevant). I would like to hear some thoughts about other examples. :)

8)

Well if you want other HAYDN examples, you just took the main one that I know about... The only other thing I can immediately think of is that at least one of the London symphonies has a solo to show off Salomon. Such solos arguably not, normally, being part of the symphonic 'ideal'.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 20, 2013, 02:57:29 PM

Quote from: orfeo on October 20, 2013, 01:51:05 PM
Well if you want other HAYDN examples, you just took the main one that I know about... The only other thing I can immediately think of is that at least one of the London symphonies has a solo to show off Salomon. Such solos arguably not, normally, being part of the symphonic 'ideal'.

Yes, well this is true. One of them has an extended obbligato cello solo too, and #98 closes with a neat little keyboard solo that Haydn himself played. And you know, that's a musical idea that goes all the way back to symphonies #6, 7 & 8, which are rife with solos. Not a whole lot in between though. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 21, 2013, 03:08:17 AM

Quote from: orfeo on October 19, 2013, 07:47:41 PM
To qualitatively measure a piece of music, one must first work out what it was trying to achieve.

Begging your pardon, this strikes me as wrong-headed. Among all of us here at GMG, who thinks there is any point to "qualitative measurement" of a work of art?

My point being, that Progress in music (if that be the context for your remark) does not require qualitative management.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on October 21, 2013, 04:16:49 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 21, 2013, 03:08:17 AM
Begging your pardon, this strikes me as wrong-headed. Among all of us here at GMG, who thinks there is any point to "qualitative measurement" of a work of art?

My point being, that Progress in music (if that be the context for your remark) does not require qualitative management.

That is the context of my remark. And pointing out the inherent problems of trying to assert progress is my purpose.

Not that I think that identifying 'progress' is impossible. But people need to be very precise: progress at what exactly? Because it's far to easy to just advocate Progress as some vague abstract idea, and then it becomes entirely possible to prove just about anything with very subjective statements.

I think there are plenty of examples around of composers trying to achieve particular things and gradually, over time and a series of compositions, mastering that particular thing. But I would say that all of those composers knew what it was they were trying to do and could therefore properly assess whether they were in fact doing it.

In short, it DOES require some kind of qualitative management. You can't make progress if you don't actually have a goal. Without a goal it's not progress, it's just movement.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 21, 2013, 04:33:00 AM

Can this discussion be moved to another thread? It has nothing to do with Haydn.

On topic: I listened to the Angeles Quartet performing Op 77 last night. Man those almost Beethovenian SQs are awesome! It's been awhile since I listened to them.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 21, 2013, 04:39:57 AM

Quote from: DavidW on October 21, 2013, 04:33:00 AM
Can this discussion be moved to another thread? It has nothing to do with Haydn.

On topic: I listened to the Angeles Quartet performing Op 77 last night. Man those almost Beethovenian SQs are awesome! It's been awhile since I listened to them.

How do you like the Angeles Qt in these generally, Davey? (And I am going to listen to that Jerusalem Qt disc later this morning, that Gurn and others have spoken highly of . . . .)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 21, 2013, 04:42:58 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 21, 2013, 04:39:57 AM

How do you like the Angeles Qt in these generally, Davey? (And I am going to listen to that Jerusalem Qt disc later this morning, that Gurn and others have spoken highly of . . . .)

Top shelf! I'm surprised that Gurn would rec a non-PI group! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2013, 04:44:14 AM

Quote from: DavidW on October 21, 2013, 04:42:58 AM
Top shelf! I'm surprised that Gurn would rec a non-PI group! :D

I am live and let live. Actually, I believe Sarge is the one that was all over this one. I bet that makes it more believable. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on October 21, 2013, 04:47:57 AM

That Jerusalem Quartet disc of Haydn quartets (vol 2) is still available at Berkshire for anyone who would like to pick it up at an attractive price.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 21, 2013, 04:50:12 AM

Why, Gurn, you (as well as Sarge, come to that) enjoy our highest confidence, you know that.

Quote from: mc ukrneal on October 21, 2013, 04:47:57 AM
That Jerusalem Quartet disc of Haydn quartets (vol 2) is still available at Berkshire for anyone who would like to pick it up at an attractive price.

Just noted that that cover says Vol. 2 . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 21, 2013, 05:02:42 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2013, 05:46:33 PM
Well, the quality of quality is tough to pin down. The quality of which you speak here (which I agree with you, let it be said) can be illustrated easily enough. Hypothetically, you have the idea for inserting a deceptive cadence at the end of the development. The way you did it in your 2nd symphony is not the way you would do it in your 63rd. That is improved craftsmanship and yes, certainly qualitative improvement. But what I am after here is the idea of using a deceptive cadence there, and the stylistic sense that lets you know it is the right thing to do. The idea is the beginning of the art process. The continuation of the process comes in the style judgement. The execution of it is the culmination. So, what I am saying is that two out of three of these things are equally present from the beginning; the idea and the stylistic sense. The craftsmanship will certainly be improved, I'm just not sure that this constitutes 'better music' with its corollary implication that what came before is deficient. It is difficult for me to express this more clearly, ignorant bastard that I am. :)

8)

Wasn't sure if I had acknowledged this (first day in harness at the new M.D. gig yesterday A.M.) Your parsing as idea, stylistic sense and execution, though not exhaustive, is sound, and perceptive. I don't think the clarity of your expression here is anything deficient 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 21, 2013, 08:05:26 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 21, 2013, 04:50:12 AM
Why, Gurn, you (as well as Sarge, come to that) enjoy our highest confidence, you know that.

Just noted that that cover says Vol. 2 . . . .

Volume 1 is available in the original issue and as part of HM's Haydn anniversary re-issues/releases
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411BWHGCTEL.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kgTzFYpvL._SX300_.jpg)

Contains (to save you squinting at the second cover) Op. 64/5, Op. 76/2, Op. 77/1

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 21, 2013, 08:08:37 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 21, 2013, 08:05:26 AM
Volume 1 is available in the original issue and as part of HM's Haydn anniversary re-issues/releases
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/411BWHGCTEL.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kgTzFYpvL._SX300_.jpg)

Contains (to save you squinting at the second cover) Op. 64/5, Op. 76/2, Op. 77/1

Those Jerusalem discs are like "Haydn's Greatest Hits" for string quartet, especially Vol.2 for me, featuring my favorite from Op.20 and Op.33.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 21, 2013, 08:19:51 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 21, 2013, 08:08:37 AM
Those Jerusalem discs are like "Haydn's Greatest Hits" for string quartet, especially Vol.2 for me, featuring my favorite from Op.20 and Op.33.

I have to confess that I don't have a favorite among the quartets. It's rather a case of

When I'm not with the one I love
I love the one I'm with

And, also in confession mode, there's not a recording from the Jerusalem Quartet I don't like--and I think I have them all (there may be one early one that's escaped my dragnet).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 21, 2013, 09:40:32 AM

Well, from the (single, as yet) Haydn quartet I've listened to so far, your thoroughness strikes me as no mere eccentricity, Jeffrey.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on October 21, 2013, 04:43:25 PM

Today, from the DRD set, disc # 4 and disc # 34

Disc 4

Symphony No. 11 in E flat major (The breathtaking, gorgeous I. Adagio Cantabile! Wow....) :-*
Symphony No. 5 in A major
Symphony No. 32 in C major

Disc 34

Symphony No. 97 in C major (Great timpani, effectively used I found in the III. Menuetto & Trio) :)
Symphony No. 99 in E flat major

Now, after 12 discs, I may have to take a break. :( Just want to make sure I'm giving each symphony its fair, attentive listen. Please don't kick me out of the Haus just yet. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2013, 05:05:04 PM

Quote from: ChamberNut on October 21, 2013, 04:43:25 PM
Today, from the DRD set, disc # 4 and disc # 34

Disc 4

Symphony No. 11 in E flat major (The breathtaking, gorgeous I. Adagio Cantabile! Wow....) :-*
Symphony No. 5 in A major
Symphony No. 32 in C major

Disc 34

Symphony No. 97 in C major (Great timpani, effectively used I found in the III. Menuetto & Trio) :)
Symphony No. 99 in E flat major

Now, after 12 discs, I may have to take a break. :( Just want to make sure I'm giving each symphony its fair, attentive listen. Please don't kick me out of the Haus just yet. :D

Interesting group today, Ray. Please keep commenting what appeals to you. The fact that most of these are first listens makes it very cool to see what grabs your attention. It isn't always the same things as the pros, and I care far less about their opinion than I do about yours. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on October 21, 2013, 05:11:37 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2013, 05:05:04 PM
Interesting group today, Ray. Please keep commenting what appeals to you. The fact that most of these are first listens makes it very cool to see what grabs your attention. It isn't always the same things as the pros, and I care far less about their opinion than I do about yours. :)

8)

Thanks Gurn, will do!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 21, 2013, 05:42:15 PM

Every one grabs my attention when I listen to it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2013, 05:43:36 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 21, 2013, 05:42:15 PM
Every one grabs my attention when I listen to it.

But Ray writes it down for vicarious sharing enjoyment. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on October 21, 2013, 05:45:20 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2013, 05:43:36 PM
But Ray writes it down for vicarious sharing enjoyment. :)

8)

;D A non-musicological essay, to be sure. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2013, 05:47:09 PM

Quote from: ChamberNut on October 21, 2013, 05:45:20 PM
;D A non-musicological essay, to be sure. :D

Thus perfect for me! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 22, 2013, 07:06:26 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2013, 04:44:14 AM
I am live and let live. Actually, I believe Sarge is the one that was all over this one. I bet that makes it more believable. :)

8)

It's my favorite Haydn quartet disc:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/apr12/haydnSQJer.jpg)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on October 22, 2013, 07:07:49 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2013, 05:43:36 PM
But Ray writes it down for vicarious sharing enjoyment. :)

8)

I was driving when I listened to the first dozen or so, and it sucked because I kept thinking "well that's the really awesome thing about THAT symphony!" but then when I sat down at the computer Monday morning, couldn't remember which was which for many of them. :-X

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2013, 07:15:23 AM

Quote from: Brian on October 22, 2013, 07:07:49 AM
I was driving when I listened to the first dozen or so, and it sucked because I kept thinking "well that's the really awesome thing about THAT symphony!" but then when I sat down at the computer Monday morning, couldn't remember which was which for many of them. :-X

I know, and you're only a virgin once. That's why I was encouraging Ray. Hell, I can't remember what I think of each of them without a relisten! :(

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 22, 2013, 07:06:26 AM
It's my favorite Haydn quartet disc:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/apr12/haydnSQJer.jpg)

Sarge

Yeah, I like my disks that have a variety instead of only 1 opus on them. Two groups that leap to mind as faves that way are the Schuppanzigh Quartet and the Amsterdam SQ. It just seems like a better lineup to me. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2013, 07:17:59 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on October 22, 2013, 07:14:34 AM
There was a GMG member, Mark Simon (a missing member I truly miss), who once posted that he and his brother used to play a game where they would challenge each other by singing a theme from a Haydn symphony and the other would have to guess which one. He implied that they could do this for all of them.

Pretty amazing, if you ask me.

:)

It IS amazing, although Mark (and possibly his brother) was a professional musician, and memorization like that is something they are trained in. That said, having the facility to do it, whether as a pro or not, is a super thing. I can whistle one of the variations in the second movement of Op 76 #3..... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 22, 2013, 07:20:18 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2013, 07:15:23 AM
. . . Hell, I can't remember what I think of each of them without a relisten! :(

I am, in a way, relieved to know it! 8) 0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 22, 2013, 07:47:26 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 22, 2013, 07:06:26 AM
It's my favorite Haydn quartet disc:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/apr12/haydnSQJer.jpg)

Sarge

For me their style in both Haydn CDs is too mellow, not wild enough.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 22, 2013, 07:51:56 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 21, 2013, 09:40:32 AM
Well, from the (single, as yet) Haydn quartet I've listened to so far, your thoroughness strikes me as no mere eccentricity, Jeffrey.

What! You don't have their DSCH?

On the topic of the symphonies, now that I've gone through the Hogwood box , I'm not sure it's possible to say there's a clear superiority of one (or even a select few) among them all, or that one will ever be my favorite of them all. Just too much diversity and high quality musicianship involved.

Interestingly, the same does not, for me apply to Mozart. I'm now going through a somewhat mutilated set of Tate/ECO's incomplete cycle (this set made further incomplete by the fact that it's missing CD 1*) and finding that the earlier works don't engage with me nearly as much as the later ones. The earlier ones merely make appealing music.

*a used copy, obviously, and explains what seemed to be an absurdly cheap price that prompted me to buy it at a store that doesn't allow you to undo the shrinkwrap before purchasing.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 22, 2013, 07:54:50 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 22, 2013, 07:51:56 AM
What! You don't have their DSCH?

On the topic of the symphonies, now that I've gone through the Hogwood box , I'm not sure it's possible to say there's a clear superiority of one (or even a select few) among them all, or that one will ever be my favorite of them all. Just too much diversity and high quality musicianship involved.

Interestingly, the same does not, for me apply to Mozart. I'm now going through a somewhat mutilated set of Tate/ECO's incomplete cycle (this set made further incomplete by the fact that it's missing CD 1) and finding that the earlier works don't engage with me nearly as much as the later ones. The earlier ones merely make appealing music.

Of course. Mozart was yet a tike when he wrote the earlier ones, where "Papa" was already a formed composer when setting out on both the SQ and symphony cycles.

(True even of the pre-SQ divertimenti, Gurn?)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 22, 2013, 08:08:47 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on October 22, 2013, 07:14:34 AM
There was a GMG member, Mark Simon (a missing member I truly miss), who once posted that he and his brother used to play a game where they would challenge each other by singing a theme from a Haydn symphony and the other would have to guess which one. He implied that they could do this for all of them.

Pretty amazing, if you ask me.

:)

Mark posted well before you registered on this forum. I came up with some possibilities:

(a) you used to post here under a different handle
(b) you know Mark from real life or a different forum
(c) you read ALOT of older posts on the forum

If it is (a) would you please share with us your previous handle.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 22, 2013, 08:34:04 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 22, 2013, 07:54:50 AM
Of course. Mozart was yet a tike when he wrote the earlier ones, where "Papa" was already a formed composer when setting out on both the SQ and symphony cycles.

(True even of the pre-SQ divertimenti, Gurn?)

Valid point--and no doubt that's at least one reason why Tate left out the earliest dozen or so. Although the symphonies I had in mind was the batch that runs roughly from 17 to 28, when he was no tyke and turning out some significant music in other genres.

("He" refers to WAM, not FJH.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 22, 2013, 08:41:54 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 22, 2013, 07:47:26 AM
For me their style in both Haydn CDs is too mellow, not wild enough.

Who do you consider "wild enough"?

For me I prefer a more middle-ground approach in the quartets. Not that there isn't room for something on the more mellow side, like the warm and comfy Kodály.

There is of course something to be said for the energetic approach, too. For that I like the Ysayë quartet. Another quartet I'm considering is the Medici:

[asin]B005HKNG0Y[/asin]

[asin]B000VL9XJW[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2013, 08:42:32 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 22, 2013, 07:54:50 AM

(True even of the pre-SQ divertimenti, Gurn?)

Well, he was 25 when he wrote his first SQD, so certainly not a kid. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: San Antone on October 22, 2013, 08:59:55 AM

Quote from: DavidW on October 22, 2013, 08:08:47 AM
Mark posted well before you registered on this forum. I came up with some possibilities:

(a) you used to post here under a different handle
(b) you know Mark from real life or a different forum
(c) you read ALOT of older posts on the forum

If it is (a) would you please share with us your previous handle.

A combination of all three, but I've forgotten under what named I was registered when Mark was here; it was a while ago. I left for a few years and then re-joined under this name.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 22, 2013, 09:13:37 AM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on October 22, 2013, 08:41:54 AM
Who do you consider "wild enough"?

For me I prefer a more middle-ground approach in the quartets. Not that there isn't room for something on the more mellow side, like the warm and comfy Kodály.

There is of course something to be said for the energetic approach, too. For that I like the Ysayë quartet. Another quartet I'm considering is the Medici:

[asin]B005HKNG0Y[/asin]

[asin]B000VL9XJW[/asin]

Well, just thinking of some of the music that the JC recorded, I much prefer Tatrai in op 20/5, and Pro Arte in op 77/1. I don't know the Ysayë or Medici in Haydn. The most energetic and wild I've heard is The Casals Quartet, sample before you buy, you may loathe what they do to the music. Having said that, when Pro Arte are in the zone they get a hyper-intense too.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 22, 2013, 09:15:16 AM

I am sure it was particularly for wildness that the Prince had engaged Haydn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on October 22, 2013, 09:24:58 AM

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00EFIV1YW.01.L.jpg)
J. Haydn
String Quartets op.33/1, 3, 5 (v.6)
Leipzig String Quartet
m|DG (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00EFIV1YW/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00EFIV1YW/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00EFIV1YW/goodmusicguideuk-21)

Don't recall ever hearing such a lively opening movement of op.33/3. It's like birds having a party.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 22, 2013, 09:27:33 AM

I want to hear it. We have birds. And the birds know how to party . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 22, 2013, 09:28:10 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 22, 2013, 09:13:37 AM
Pro Arte in op 77/1[...]when Pro Arte are in the zone they get a hyper-intense too.

The last thing I want in a performance of 77/1 is hyper-intensity. I'm looking for civilized discourse not a gang bang ;)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 22, 2013, 09:30:33 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 22, 2013, 09:28:10 AM
The last thing I want in a performance of 77/1 is hyper-intensity. I'm looking for civilized discourse not a gang bang ;)

Sarge

So, more Enchanted April, and not so much Nightmare on Elm Street 2 . . . ?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 22, 2013, 09:32:13 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on October 22, 2013, 09:24:58 AM
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00EFIV1YW.01.L.jpg)
J. Haydn
String Quartets op.33/1, 3, 5 (v.6)
Leipzig String Quartet
m|DG (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00EFIV1YW/goodmusicguide-20)
German link (http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00EFIV1YW/goodmusicguide-21) - UK link (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00EFIV1YW/goodmusicguideuk-21)

Don't recall ever hearing such a lively opening movement of op.33/3. It's like birds having a party.

That ought to be good. I have the Leipzigers' op 50 disc. Wonderful stuff.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on October 22, 2013, 09:50:48 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 22, 2013, 09:28:10 AM
The last thing I want in a performance of 77/1 is hyper-intensity. I'm looking for civilized discourse not a gang bang ;)

Sarge

If you've never spit-roasted a Haydn Menuet, you don't know what you're missing!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2013, 10:13:42 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 22, 2013, 09:15:16 AM
I am sure it was particularly for wildness that the Prince had engaged Haydn.

I don't think it turned him off, conceptually. The use of the modifier 'particularly' makes you the winner though. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2013, 10:19:36 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 22, 2013, 09:28:10 AM
The last thing I want in a performance of 77/1 is hyper-intensity. I'm looking for civilized discourse not a gang bang ;)

Sarge

Yeah, that piece doesn't benefit from applied rowdiness. Some do though. As long as they don't turn out like Rococo bon-bon's we should find a space within the latitude for everyone. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 22, 2013, 10:37:28 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2013, 10:19:36 AM
Yeah, that piece doesn't benefit from applied rowdiness. Some do though. As long as they don't turn out like Rococo bon-bon's we should find a space within the latitude for everyone. :)

8)

Well I think you and sarge should listen to Pro Arte, if you haven't.

There is something a bit jazzy about Pro Arte at the best. Hot Club de Paris.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 23, 2013, 10:28:30 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 22, 2013, 10:37:28 AM
Well I think you and sarge should listen to Pro Arte, if you haven't.

Since you first mentioned the Pro Arte many moons ago, I've periodically sampled their performances (Amazon clips). What I heard both repelled me and delighted me. I have not heard even a small bit of their op.77/1 though. What makes me hesitate hitting the buy button on the Testament box, i.e., taking a 49 Euro gamble, is the fact that you and I have such radically different taste in Haydn's quartets. I have several versions of op.77/1 that I think ideal in their ways, and several performed in a manner that tests my prejudices. Do I really need the Pro Arte too?

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 23, 2013, 10:31:34 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2013, 10:19:36 AM
Yeah, that piece doesn't benefit from applied rowdiness. Some do though.
8)

Of course. One size doesn't fit all 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 23, 2013, 10:40:20 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on October 23, 2013, 10:36:32 AM
I'll bet you can live without their Op. 77.

I think so too. I have these quartets in op.77/1:

MOSAIQUES
KODALY
THE LINDSAYS
AMADEUS
AURYN
L'ARCHIBUDELLI
JERUSALEM
SCHUPPANZIGH

That covers a lot of ground.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 23, 2013, 11:24:05 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 23, 2013, 10:28:30 AM
Since you first mentioned the Pro Arte many moons ago, I've periodically sampled their performances (Amazon clips). What I heard both repelled me and delighted me. I have not heard even a small bit of their op.77/1 though. What makes me hesitate hitting the buy button on the Testament box, i.e., taking a 49 Euro gamble, is the fact that you and I have such radically different taste in Haydn's quartets. I have several versions of op.77/1 that I think ideal in their ways, and several performed in a manner that tests my prejudices. Do I really need the Pro Arte too?

Sarge

I think you need to be careful sarge. They were very variable, and often pretty dull. Why can't you sample through spotify? Two I like are op 77/1 and op 64/6. The sound is fine -- you just have to use your imagination, you can hear well enough what they were doing.

I do think that you need to hear those two at least, whether we have different tastes or not. They're important in 20th century reception history. And those performances have not been bettered -- they reveal things you can do with the music.

I don't own the Testament -- too expensive. Nearly all of them are on spotify and that suits me.

Anyway how can you resist Haydn Hot Club style?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 23, 2013, 11:34:33 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 23, 2013, 10:40:20 AM
I think so too. I have these quartets in op.77/1:

MOSAIQUES
KODALY
THE LINDSAYS
AMADEUS
AURYN
L'ARCHIBUDELLI
JERUSALEM
SCHUPPANZIGH

That covers a lot of ground.

Sarge

I did a big survey of the op 77s last year. In addition to Pro Arte, I felt that Ulbrich, Tatrai and Amati were really outstanding in op 77/1.

Op 77/2 is harder -- but that's for another discussion maybe

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 23, 2013, 11:37:37 AM

My favorite Op 77 is the Auryn Quartet.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 23, 2013, 11:46:39 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on October 23, 2013, 11:41:01 AM
Well, we disagree. What really bothers me about their playing is the portimento. As far as being bettered, good, better, best is not how I gauge recordings, but I can name three off the top of my head of ones I like better than QPA: Mosaiques, Schuppanzigh and Jerusalem.

After reading your posts for a while my overall impression is that you almost always prefer historical recordings and regularly claim them to be the best. But, almost without fail the playing sounds dated and anti-stylistic for the period to my ears.

But, as in all matter of taste, to each his own.

:)

I don't know about historic recordings, I certainly wouldn't always go for historic performances of the trios, and rarely (maybe never) for the keyboard sonatas.

The big formative influences on my taste in Haydn were Van Beinum, Deszo Ranki and Harnoncourt. No quartets, except maybe the very early recordings made by the first lineup of the Juilliards. I've found it much harder to find a quartet ensemble with a vision of what the music can be which I like, despite spending a lot of time searching.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 23, 2013, 12:27:22 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 23, 2013, 11:46:39 AM
I don't know about historic recordings, I certainly wouldn't always go for historic performances of the trios, and rarely (maybe never) for the keyboard sonatas.

The big formative influences on my taste in Haydn were Van Beinum, Deszo Ranki and Harnoncourt. No quartets, except maybe the very early recordings made by the first lineup of the Juilliards. I've found it much harder to find a quartet ensemble with a vision of what the music can be which I like, despite spending a lot of time searching.

I'm not sure there ARE 'historic' performances of the trios, so you're in luck there. The BAT was a landmark in being the first ever complete set, and really, it isn't so modern, I think it was begun in the 1970's when scores became available.

The 1970's is old to me, BTW. :)

The performance style of that era is what turns me off, in addition to sucky sound. I like modern performances by people who appreciate Haydn as much as I do.

Op 77#1 is well represented, I will add on to this when I get home, but the Alea Quartet, QM, Schuppanzigh, Salomon, and a half dozen others.

Goes without saying that the symphonies are in the same boat for me. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 23, 2013, 12:50:10 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 23, 2013, 12:27:22 PM
I'm not sure there ARE 'historic' performances of the trios, so you're in luck there. The BAT was a landmark in being the first ever complete set, and really, it isn't so modern, I think it was begun in the 1970's when scores became available.

The 1970's is old to me, BTW. :)

The performance style of that era is what turns me off, in addition to sucky sound. I like modern performances by people who appreciate Haydn as much as I do.

Op 77#1 is well represented, I will add on to this when I get home, but the Alea Quartet, QM, Schuppanzigh, Salomon, and a half dozen others.

Goes without saying that the symphonies are in the same boat for me. :)

8)

Oh there are some wonderful historic trio recordings - Oistrakh-Oborin-Knushevitsky; Casals-Thibaud-Cortot; Goldberg and Lilli Kraus and ???

It's only my discovery of Trio 1790 (thanks to you) which has made me turn away from these, I hated BAT. Oistrakh-Oborin-Knushevitsky is really special.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 23, 2013, 12:54:34 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 23, 2013, 12:50:10 PM
Oh there are some wonderful historic trio recordings - Oistrakh-Oborin-Knushevitsky; Casals-Thibaud-Cortot; Goldberg and Lilli Kraus and ???

It's only my discovery of Trio 1790 (thanks to you) which has made me turn away from these, I hated BAT. Oistrakh-Oborin-Knushevitsky is really special.

Curious which ones they performed. There were only a trickle of scores available back then and they were pretty inaccurate, although great music can transcend that sort of thing. Trio 1790 are the cat's ass, despite opinions I've heard otherwise. :)

BAT didn't give me a Viagra moment either, although hats off for recording the entire cycle for the first time.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 23, 2013, 01:02:57 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 23, 2013, 12:54:34 PM
Curious which ones they performed. There were only a trickle of scores available back then and they were pretty inaccurate, although great music can transcend that sort of thing. Trio 1790 are the cat's ass, despite opinions I've heard otherwise. :)

BAT didn't give me a Viagra moment either, although hats off for recording the entire cycle for the first time.

8)

You know that Paul Badura Skoda recorded quite a large number of the trios with Fornier and Janigro? Not complete but maybe a dozen, maybe even more. Modern instruments. Elegant style, nice and relaxing.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 23, 2013, 01:59:19 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 23, 2013, 11:24:05 AM
I think you need to be careful sarge. They were very variable, and often pretty dull. Why can't you sample through spotify? Two I like are op 77/1 and op 64/6. The sound is fine -- you just have to use your imagination, you can hear well enough what they were doing.

Historic recordings don't bother me. I mean, I listen to Golovanov :D ;)

Quote from: Mandryka on October 23, 2013, 11:24:05 AM
I do think that you need to hear those two at least, whether we have different tastes or not. They're important in 20th century reception history. And those performances have not been bettered...

There's the rub. I have a hard time believing that Pro Arte got it right and no one else since has.

Quote from: Mandryka on October 23, 2013, 11:24:05 AM
Anyway how can you resist Haydn Hot Club style?

Well, it is hard to resist :D That's why I keep going back to Amazon and sampling. I may succumb...someday.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on October 23, 2013, 03:26:31 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 23, 2013, 11:24:05 AM
Anyway how can you resist Haydn Hot Club style?

What I think of when I think of Hot Club style:

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_UMasXZAkbgg/S_IIHZy_t2I/AAAAAAAAHjQ/Qx_452umsdE/s640/Club+House+Sandwich+May+17th,+2010+4.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 23, 2013, 03:35:38 PM

"Hoagie" Haydn

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 23, 2013, 09:06:52 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 23, 2013, 01:59:19 PM

There's the rub. I have a hard time believing that Pro Arte got it right and no one else since has.

Sarge

Well I didn't intend to suggest that.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 24, 2013, 07:51:25 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2013, 07:15:23 AM
I know, and you're only a virgin once. That's why I was encouraging Ray. Hell, I can't remember what I think of each of them without a relisten! :(

Again, I find it a comfort to know that a chap like yourself, who has certainly spent more time with the Haydn symphonies than yours truly, is still . . . listening to them again for the first time now and again. I don't know when a day of "just Haydn" may become available, but I know I should need several in order to get what I will consider (for myself) a proper grasp of them. That said, I am enjoying the weird sensation of going back to listen to piece to which I know I have listened before, and yet feeling that the music is entirely new to me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 24, 2013, 08:28:18 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 24, 2013, 07:51:25 AM
Again, I find it a comfort to know that a chap like yourself, who has certainly spent more time with the Haydn symphonies than yours truly, is still . . . listening to them again for the first time now and again. I don't know when a day of "just Haydn" may become available, but I know I should need several in order to get what I will consider (for myself) a proper grasp of them. That said, I am enjoying the weird sensation of going back to listen to piece to which I know I have listened before, and yet feeling that the music is entirely new to me.

One of the nice things about the gigantic size of his oeuvre is that you can listen around and it may be months before you hear the same piece again, and meantime you've heard so much memorable music that it got pushed out of your head. I'm sure the Bachians experience something similar, although the music is not at that same level. It has been mentioned here by many that he never seems to repeat himself within a genre (no true, of course, but he disguises it well). I think that makes it seem like so much more.

Actually, it pleases me that a professional musician can have the same things to grapple with as I have. That 'this is totally new to me' feeling can be really disconcerting when you know it isn't true! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 24, 2013, 08:33:37 AM

And honestly, I think that is why the underhanded result has been, a consensus grade of B for "Papa" as a musical force. But folks have not actually evaluated the music; they've found it too daunting a task, and fixed a Post-It™ note to him . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 24, 2013, 08:35:48 AM

. . . which is why, when musicians have made the effort to investigate the music, they invariably have a high opinion of him.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 24, 2013, 10:06:16 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 24, 2013, 08:33:37 AM
And honestly, I think that is why the underhanded result has been, a consensus grade of B for "Papa" as a musical force. But folks have not actually evaluated the music; they've found it too daunting a task, and fixed a Post-It™ note to him . . . .

Exactly true. I think anytime that a body of work is that large, it tends to get lumped into great chunks (like the early, middle and late symphonies (or string quartets or keyboard trios &c &c), and then generalities get made instead of specifics. Even the history is hard, given the 60 years of active musicianship that stretches out over one of the most interesting and eventful parts of Euro history! One ends up with early, middle and late Esterházy periods too. ::)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 24, 2013, 12:42:53 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 24, 2013, 08:28:18 AM
I'm sure the Bachians experience something similar, although the music is not at that same level.

Well, with the chihuahua on my lap vying for attention I'm in no real position to unleash (no pun intended) major salvos in defense of Bach. Let's just say I don't agree with this assertion at all. ;D

EDIT: Hmm...with the chihuahua now off my lap I've had time to give this quote a more thorough going-over. But I can't quite get past its ambiguity. Being the big Bach fan I am (love Haydn, too) I'm not sure how to read it. First reactions might've been wrong, however.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 24, 2013, 05:21:21 PM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on October 24, 2013, 12:42:53 PM
Well, with the chihuahua on my lap vying for attention I'm in no real position to unleash (no pun intended) major salvos in defense of Bach. Let's just say I don't agree with this assertion at all. ;D

EDIT: Hmm...with the chihuahua now off my lap I've had time to give this quote a more thorough going-over. But I can't quite get past its ambiguity. Being the big Bach fan I am (love Haydn, too) I'm not sure how to read it. First reactions might've been wrong, however.

I have a real talent for that, don't I? :D

8)

PS - I have a chihuahua also. Paco. He loves Haydn's music. Go figure! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on October 24, 2013, 05:47:31 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 24, 2013, 05:21:21 PM
I have a real talent for that, don't I? :D

It was exactly what I thought this morning: You enjoy to tease Bach from time to time. :D

BTW, this afternoon arrived my new Mac all-in-one, with 27-inches screen (I needed to say that! :P), and for the first time I noticed a long vertical crack on the design of the site (left side when you're in front of the computer).

Does somebody else see the same?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 24, 2013, 05:50:26 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 24, 2013, 05:21:21 PM
I have a real talent for that, don't I? :D

:D With a politician's flair:

http://www.youtube.com/v/5FRVvjGL2C0

QuotePS - I have a chihuahua also. Paco. He loves Haydn's music. Go figure! :)

Ha! That's awesome. :) Unfortunately our Bella only has two interests: food and bullying the stuffies around the house. But she's cute as hell!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 24, 2013, 05:51:41 PM

Quote from: Gordon Shumway on October 24, 2013, 05:47:31 PM
It was exactly what I thought this morning: You enjoy to tease Bach from time to time. :D

BTW, this afternoon arrived my new Mac all-in-one, with 27-inches screen (I needed to say that! :P), and for the first time I noticed a long vertical crack on the design of the site (left side when you're in front of the computer).

Does somebody else see the same?

True, but he is OK with it. :)

Wow, 27" monitor, cool! Anyway, no, I cannot see any such crack, but my puny monitor is clearly not up to the job. Probably for the best. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 24, 2013, 05:53:54 PM

My 4 year old always tells me to "play a quartet", this came from me always playing Haydn string quartets around the house or in the car, since he's learning numbers it was a great way to introduce the terms trio, quartet, quintet, etc.

The other day I played a YouTube clip from a piece posted in the "21 Century Music" thread, my son said, "Daddy, turn that sound off." :o

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 24, 2013, 06:00:19 PM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on October 24, 2013, 05:50:26 PM
:D With a politician's flair:

http://www.youtube.com/v/5FRVvjGL2C0

Ha! That's awesome. :) Unfortunately our Bela only has two interests: food and bullying the stuffies around the house. But she's cute as hell!

Paco has 4 she-terriers-from-hell to keep in line, he doesn't have time for food and toys. He's damned proud of himself though!

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Paco_zps2b983c70.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 24, 2013, 06:01:46 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 24, 2013, 05:53:54 PM
My 4 year old always tells me to "play a quartet", this came from me always playing Haydn string quartets around the house or in the car, since he's learning numbers it was a great way to introduce the terms trio, quartet, quintet, etc.

The other day I played a YouTube clip from a piece posted in the "21 Century Music" thread, my son said, "Daddy, turn that sound off." :o

Splendid child! The apple didn't fall too far from the tree, mayhap. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on October 24, 2013, 06:05:13 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 24, 2013, 05:53:54 PM
My 4 year old always tells me to "play a quartet", this came from me always playing Haydn string quartets around the house or in the car, since he's learning numbers it was a great way to introduce the terms trio, quartet, quintet, etc.

The other day I played a YouTube clip from a piece posted in the "21 Century Music" thread, my son said, "Daddy, turn that sound off." :o

Lovely! He is just one of ours. ;D

As a devoted father, I guess you have a good dose of PI recordings. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 24, 2013, 06:21:20 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 24, 2013, 06:00:19 PM
Paco has 4 she-terriers-from-hell to keep in line, he doesn't have time for food and toys. He's damned proud of himself though!

Leadership. What chihuahua is without it? :D

Here's Bella doing what she does best - snacking:

(https://scontent-a.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/300229_105074399604042_329165663_n.jpg)

She's definitely added to her girth, though, since this photo!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on October 24, 2013, 08:32:44 PM

Did you buy that very large bed because you anticipated the girth expansion? >:D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 24, 2013, 09:10:11 PM

Quote from: DavidW on October 24, 2013, 08:32:44 PM
Did you buy that very large bed because you anticipated the girth expansion? >:D

:D

That could've been awesome planning by my fiancée but I doubt it. She probably liked it because it was pink. Although I think the plan was for it to be big enough for both Bella and the cat to sleep in together. But I never saw that happen very often (and the cat passed away recently).

Anyway, I'm just the adopted father so the goings-on before I arrived on the scene aren't always the clearest. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on October 25, 2013, 08:27:48 AM

Listening (for the umpteenth time) to :

Piano Trio No-44 E-dur (Hob. XV No.28) - Beaux Arts Trio

Bliss! Bliss! Bliss! 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on October 25, 2013, 09:34:04 AM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51nEOs2CjKL._SY300_.jpg)

Got my DRD symphonies set yesterday and have ripped up to disc 7. Is there a particular place I should start listening?

Dave

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 25, 2013, 09:46:58 AM

Quote from: Daverz on October 25, 2013, 09:34:04 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51nEOs2CjKL._SY300_.jpg)

Got my DRD symphonies set yesterday and have ripped up to disc 7. Is there a particular place I should start listening?

Dave

So far, randomness seems the order of the day. Unless you have specific goals in mind ('I really want to get a grip on the Paris Symphonies!') then given the way the disks are arranged, that (randomness) actually seems like the way to go. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on October 25, 2013, 09:47:59 AM

Quote from: Daverz on October 25, 2013, 09:34:04 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51nEOs2CjKL._SY300_.jpg)

Got my DRD symphonies set yesterday and have ripped up to disc 7. Is there a particular place I should start listening?

Dave

Most of us are going completely willy-nilly at random. I listened to #51 on the drive to work this morning - amazing horn part throughout the piece, particularly the solo in the slow movement, which has the lowest notes I've ever heard a horn play. Had a brief moment where I thought it was a bass trombone, then remembered, "this is still Haydn..."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 25, 2013, 09:57:38 AM

Quote from: Brian on October 25, 2013, 09:47:59 AM
Most of us are going completely willy-nilly at random. I listened to #51 on the drive to work this morning - amazing horn part throughout the piece, particularly the solo in the slow movement, which has the lowest notes I've ever heard a horn play. Had a brief moment where I thought it was a bass trombone, then remembered, "this is still Haydn..."

This symphony, 51, is one of my favourite Haydn symphonies. I listened to it last week when we were discussing Brüggen and I saw that sarge was listening to Brüggen play it. I played Brüggen and then then Béla Drahos. I enjoyed Drahos more than Brüggen, but on the whole I thought that the music was better than the performances. I can't work it out, who plays in that big box you have? Is it Fischer? I should try his 51 maybe. Ah yes, it's Dennis Russell Davies. I've heard him play Haydn/Zemlinsky transcriptions, I didn't smell a great musician there.

Dorati's horn-orientated music has a bad reputation, so I've never bothered listening, but I'm playing his 51 for the first time right now. Dirge, elephant's dance. Terrible. Neither Fey nor Kuijken have recorded it have they? And Harnoncourt neither.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on October 25, 2013, 12:28:28 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 25, 2013, 09:57:38 AM
This symphony, 51

I'll jump ahead to DRD's 51 and report. I also have Fischer, Dorati, Pinnock and Bruggen. And the old Maerzendorfer Lp, but I just checked it, and the Lp didn't even have an inner sleeve! May sound horrendous. This is part of a bunch of Maerzendorfer Haydn Lps I grabbed at Record Surplus in L.A.

EDIT: The Lp is reasonably quiet, thankfully. The performance is very nice, but I'm moving on to compare with the other recordings...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 26, 2013, 04:05:35 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 25, 2013, 09:57:38 AMNeither Fey nor Kuijken have recorded it have they? And Harnoncourt neither.

No, Fey hasn't yet done 51. It's one I'm hoping he'll do sooner rather than later. His horns are usually phenomenal.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 26, 2013, 04:27:37 AM

Blisspalooza. That is what da Haus brings!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on October 26, 2013, 08:25:58 AM

My Maerzendorfer Lp of 50+51 cleaned up nicely. It's a lovely performance of 51, though the horn player does sound like he's struggling a bit (part of the charm, really). The orchestra is the "Vienna Chamber Orchestra". I'll rip it if I get a chance. I wonder if the tapes for the Maerzendorfer recordings still exist and where they are.

Kudos to whomever typed in all the metadata for the DRD set, I'm almost done ripping all 37 CDs with dBPowerAmp. I do like the performances I've heard so far, but the band does seem a little more generic than Fischer's, and the sonics are just OK. I think I'll binge on Haydn today.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 26, 2013, 09:47:48 AM

I hope you get the chance to hear Hogwood play 51, I have pretty positive memories of it. I still haven't found the time to check Fischer.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on October 28, 2013, 05:28:12 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on October 22, 2013, 08:59:55 AM
A combination of all three, but I've forgotten under what named I was registered when Mark was here; it was a while ago. I left for a few years and then re-joined under this name.

Did you mention you are in Nashville? Did you post as "Franco"?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 29, 2013, 04:01:07 AM

Have you met Dr Simon, or is that a misinterpretation of your earlier reply? Just curious . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on November 02, 2013, 09:06:15 PM

I am truly getting sucked into The Haydn Vortex!

I've heard too many wonderful things but these were among the most recent and memory-sticking:

No. 79: With a slow movement that ends with a surprise allegro twist. I thought maybe the minuet had started!

No. 80: Wow. This one's destined to be a permanent favorite, methinks, from the dark and complicated opening to the fascinating quirky rhythms of the finale, which is un-toe-tappable in a way that reminds me of Brubeck's "Unsquare Dance"!

But then holy shit

No. 67: Whoa! Zoinks! Col legno strings decades before Berlioz! A trio for two violins! (I looked that up; it sounded to me like a violin and two violas... oops.) And then the finale where a string trio breaks out in the middle for five or six minutes! I truly had no idea what was going on or what would happen next. Hands-down the biggest surprise of my listening so far.

Pretty darn good use of $20, that DRD box. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on November 03, 2013, 01:55:22 AM

Quote from: Brian on November 02, 2013, 09:06:15 PM
I am truly getting sucked into The Haydn Vortex!

I've heard too many wonderful things but these were among the most recent and memory-sticking:

No. 79: With a slow movement that ends with a surprise allegro twist. I thought maybe the minuet had started!

No. 80: Wow. This one's destined to be a permanent favorite, methinks, from the dark and complicated opening to the fascinating quirky rhythms of the finale, which is un-toe-tappable in a way that reminds me of Brubeck's "Unsquare Dance"!

But then holy shit

No. 67: Whoa! Zoinks! Col legno strings decades before Berlioz! A trio for two violins! (I looked that up; it sounded to me like a violin and two violas... oops.) And then the finale where a string trio breaks out in the middle for five or six minutes! I truly had no idea what was going on or what would happen next. Hands-down the biggest surprise of my listening so far.

Pretty darn good use of $20, that DRD box. 8)

80 is a major favourite of mine. There is an absolutely astonishing performance of it by Peter Guelke and the WDR SO, from 1987, on symphonyshare.

If you like 67 I can't wait to hear what you'll say about the unbelievable heavenly lengths of the adagio of 68. The symphonies around 68 are a real summit I think.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on November 03, 2013, 02:20:54 AM

Quote from: Brian on November 02, 2013, 09:06:15 PM
I am truly getting sucked into The Haydn Vortex!

I've heard too many wonderful things but these were among the most recent and memory-sticking:

No. 80: Wow. This one's destined to be a permanent favorite, methinks, from the dark and complicated opening to the fascinating quirky rhythms of the finale, which is un-toe-tappable in a way that reminds me of Brubeck's "Unsquare Dance"!

Pretty darn good use of $20, that DRD box. 8)

Hellz Yeah, Brian!
No. 80 is amazing, one of the best symphonies by Haydn, actually one of the best symphonies by anyone!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 03, 2013, 05:15:59 AM

Quote from: Brian on November 02, 2013, 09:06:15 PM
No. 80: Wow. This one's destined to be a permanent favorite, methinks

Welcome to the club. That's a favorite of most everyone.

Quote from: Brian on November 02, 2013, 09:06:15 PM
No. 67: Whoa! Zoinks! Col legno strings decades before Berlioz! A trio for two violins!

The Symphony is so original and quirky. Love it (among my favorites too). It sounds like Haydn was trying to imitate the sound of a hurdy-gurdy in that Trio. The peasant associations must have amused the court.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on November 03, 2013, 05:20:18 AM

Quote from: Brian on November 02, 2013, 09:06:15 PM
I am truly getting sucked into The Haydn Vortex!

But then holy shit

No. 67: Whoa! Zoinks! Col legno strings decades before Berlioz! A trio for two violins! (I looked that up; it sounded to me like a violin and two violas... oops.) And then the finale where a string trio breaks out in the middle for five or six minutes! I truly had no idea what was going on or what would happen next. Hands-down the biggest surprise of my listening so far.

Pretty darn good use of $20, that DRD box. 8)

Brian, No. 67 was a standout for me as well. I loved that finale, with the Adagio e cantibile in the middle! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on November 03, 2013, 06:50:00 AM

If you like 67 then this recording by Paul Sacher is worth taking I think

http://vinylfatigue.blogspot.co.uk/2010/01/indefatigable-champion-of-music-of-his.html

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 03, 2013, 07:33:44 AM

Quote from: Brian on November 02, 2013, 09:06:15 PM
I am truly getting sucked into The Haydn Vortex!

I've heard too many wonderful things but these were among the most recent and memory-sticking:

But then holy shit

No. 67: Whoa! Zoinks! Col legno strings decades before Berlioz! A trio for two violins! (I looked that up; it sounded to me like a violin and two violas... oops.) And then the finale where a string trio breaks out in the middle for five or six minutes! I truly had no idea what was going on or what would happen next. Hands-down the biggest surprise of my listening so far.

I got this from Robbins-Landon, but I see someone quoted it wholesale on Wiki;

QuoteThe trio of the minuet is scored for two solo violins each playing con sordino on single strings. The first violin plays the melody on the E string and the second violin tunes its G string down to F (scordatura too!) and plays a drone on the open string

Which jibes up exactly with what Sarge was saying about making a rustic 'hurdy-gurdy' sort of sound.

Of course, I'm not one who is given to rants, but if I was, this would be a great representative of the symphonies of the late 1770's in which Haydn expunged any last vestige of his earlier, 'stormy' period and moved on to works that were more theatrical and very much more in a popular idiom than previously. Musicologists from St. Foix (who conjured up the stupid term Stürm und Dräng ::) ) right through my hero Robbins-Landon, who was otherwise quite sane, totally skewered these works as a lightweight bunch of frilly bagatelles which were decidedly inferior to the works that came before and after. My own belief is that they totally missed the point. Since S & D was an artificial construct in any case, I would be stunned to discover that Haydn considered them to be a major step in his career path. They were a musical avenue that he was exploring at the time. And now he was exploring a different one, which involved solid entertainment for his audience (oh, the shame!).

I agree with all who are enamored of this and many other works of this time period, like the two sets of 3 symphonies each (76-78 & 79-81) the preceded the Paris Symphonies. They were among the very first works that Haydn sold on his own, legally within his contract. And he had no problem doing it. People back then knew what was good when they heard it, no pretension involved. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 03, 2013, 07:46:20 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on November 03, 2013, 06:50:00 AM
If you like 67 then this recording by Paul Sacher is worth taking I think

http://vinylfatigue.blogspot.co.uk/2010/01/indefatigable-champion-of-music-of-his.html

Thanks for the link. Listening to it now...and it sounds fabulous. The guy did a great job digitalizing the LP.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 03, 2013, 09:52:18 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on November 03, 2013, 06:50:00 AM
If you like 67 then this recording by Paul Sacher is worth taking I think

I've listened to it twice now, and compared it to Fischer. I find it quite disappointing for several reasons. The horns are so backwardly placed they might as well have taken the day off. They literally can't be heard much of the time. (sanantonio might approve, though ;) Fischer's horns are not only upfront and present, they blare like foghorns in the Minuet 8) ) The unusual Trio (even shocking in the Fischer) is played too sweetly in the Sacher version, the "drone" violin simply too discreet to make much of a rustic impression. The drone is given equal prominence in Fischer's performance which results in a very rough sound like a hurdy-gurdy (which is what I assume Haydn was going for). In the last movement Sacher doesn't observe the Allegro's repeat which means the Adagio section starts after less than a minute and half, making it much less startling, I think. And then, instead of using the string trio Haydn asks for, he employs his entire string section, playing down and ignoring the originality of Haydn's creation.

So, this is not a performance of 67 I'd recommend.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on November 03, 2013, 10:18:04 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 03, 2013, 09:52:18 AM
I've listened to it twice now, and compared it to Fischer. I find it quite disappointing for several reasons. The horns are so backwardly placed they might as well have taken the day off. They literally can't be heard much of the time. (sanantonio might approve, though ;) Fischer's horns are not only upfront and present, they blare like foghorns in the Minuet 8) ) The unusual Trio (even shocking in the Fischer) is played too sweetly in the Sacher version, the "drone" violin simply too discreet to make much of a rustic impression. The drone is given equal prominence in Fischer's performance which results in a very rough sound like a hurdy-gurdy (which is what I assume Haydn was going for). In the last movement Sacher doesn't observe the Allegro's repeat which means the Adagio section starts after less than a minute and half, making it much less startling, I think. And then, instead of using the string trio Haydn asks for, he employs his entire string section, playing down and ignoring the originality of Haydn's creation.

So, this is not a performance of 67 I'd recommend.

Sarge

Probably right. I left a note in the listening thread about this, about how I prefer Vilmos Tatrai's recording -- and when I compared the two a few years back I preferred Tatrai to Fischer. But I don't know how I'd feel now about Fischer,

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 03, 2013, 11:55:23 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on November 03, 2013, 10:18:04 AM
Probably right. I left a note in the listening thread about this, about how I prefer Vilmos Tatrai's recording

I saw your post. Although there are some Tatrai conducted symphonies on Amazon DE, that CD isn't listed. I'll keep searching.

I do appreciate the link to Sacher. It was interesting hearing and comparing it to my 67s, the few I own (Drahos and Fischer). Is there a Goodman or Solomons 67?

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 03, 2013, 11:56:04 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on November 03, 2013, 10:29:14 AM
Hah! I listened to it too and didn't find anything there to recommend either.

8)

Do you have Fischer?

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on November 03, 2013, 11:59:03 AM

Mandryka, I downloaded that entire Symphonyshare Haydn #80 package just now.

Had my first disappointment today. No. 37 struck me as listless and uninteresting, with an especially dry, unwelcoming slow movement. Maybe the latter is the fault of DRD; I know the Hurwitzer griped about DRD's slow movements in general being non-expressive, but this is the first time I've noticed.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 03, 2013, 12:11:52 PM

Quote from: Brian on November 03, 2013, 11:59:03 AM
Mandryka, I downloaded that entire Symphonyshare Haydn #80 package just now.

Had my first disappointment today. No. 37 struck me as listless and uninteresting, with an especially dry, unwelcoming slow movement. Maybe the latter is the fault of DRD; I know the Hurwitzer griped about DRD's slow movements in general being non-expressive, but this is the first time I've noticed.

I only own one 37 on CD--an indication that it's not very popular? I know what I'll be listening to next ;)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 03, 2013, 12:23:54 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 03, 2013, 11:55:23 AM
Is there a Goodman or Solomons 67?

No. The only PI 67 is Hogwood, and it is super. Just the parts that you were bewailing in the recording you listened to are up front in Hogwood, as well as those outstanding natural horns.

I will offer my own 2 cents and say that I think the violin duet in the trio is actually going for bagpipes, or the French version, the musette. They were all the rage for a time, and you know, The Prince was a huge fan of French stuff. You may well be right, I don't really know, it just sounded to me. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 03, 2013, 12:32:07 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 03, 2013, 12:23:54 PM
No. The only PI 67 is Hogwood, and it is super.

Damn...and I thought I had all the Hogwood I needed. I hope the volume with 67 is available...and cheap!

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 03, 2013, 12:23:54 PM
I will offer my own 2 cents and say that I think the violin duet in the trio is actually going for bagpipes, or the French version, the musette.

Oh yeah, you could be right. I was guessing hurdy-gurdy...based on how Fischer's Trio sounded to me. But bagpipes are similarly rustic and "droney" ;D and make a good fit. I'll listen for it the next time I play 67. And you know, bagpipes are my favorite instrument after the horn 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 03, 2013, 01:07:24 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 03, 2013, 12:32:07 PM
Damn...and I thought I had all the Hogwood I needed. I hope the volume with 67 is available...and cheap!

Oh yeah, you could be right. I was guessing hurdy-gurdy...based on how Fischer's Trio sounded to me. But bagpipes are similarly rustic and "droney" ;D and make a good fit. I'll listen for it the next time I play 67. And you know, bagpipes are my favorite instrument after the horn 8)

Sarge

It's volume 9. I thought you had bought that new boxful. Damn the luck, eh!

Yes, I like them too. When I was doing a lot of Vivaldi research I discovered the musette and was surprised to learn how widespread the bagpipe family was back then. I didn't even know there was a 'bagpipe family'! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 03, 2013, 02:59:44 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 03, 2013, 01:07:24 PM
It's volume 9. I thought you had bought that new boxful. Damn the luck, eh!

I began collecting Hogwood long before the "complete" box was available, primarily to acquire recordings of Symphonies I didn't have or that I wanted PI performances of. I have vol. 2, 3, 4 and 8. 9 is available new but priced almost as much as the box--I'll have to think about it. I really like Fischer so Hogwood's 67 isn't a "must have" for me.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 03, 2013, 03:26:26 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 03, 2013, 02:59:44 PM
I began collecting Hogwood long before the "complete" box was available, primarily to acquire recordings of Symphonies I didn't have or that I wanted PI performances of. I have vol. 2, 3, 4 and 8. 9 is available new but priced almost as much as the box--I'll have to think about it. I really like Fischer so Hogwood's 67 isn't a "must have" for me.

Sarge

Understand. When I was shopping those (early on also), I got lucky a few times and got great buys (usually on eBay). Like Vol 1-6, new and nearly new, for $100! With high dollar items I learned to develop patience or not get it at all. That's a lot easier to do when you already have a set that you really like. If I wasn't such a dedicated PIon, I would be very happy with the Fischer too (I have 2 copies of it!), in fact have rec'd it to umpteen people. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 03, 2013, 04:45:35 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on November 03, 2013, 04:08:25 PM
This is why I feel no compulsion to to buy the Dennis Russell Davies set, although it sounds like a good one, too.

Well, I'm not going to buy it in order to review it because I don't need it, but everything I have read indicates that it has many strong points, but enough weak points in areas that I consider critical to make me stay away. I'm not going to spend $25 just for the sake of spending $25 if I don't want the product. I imagine that the other abstainers are pretty much thinking that way too. Hell, Fischer is excellent, why replace it? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 04, 2013, 04:40:48 AM

Yesterday I did something I said I wasn't interested in doing: a Haydn marathon. It wasn't planned, just sorta happened. And it was glorious 8)

37 Fischer
44 Weil
51 Weil
52 Weil
55 Fischer
56 Fischer
67 Sacher
67 Fischer
68 Harnoncourt
69 Fischer
70 Goodman
71 Goodman

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 04, 2013, 05:28:24 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 04, 2013, 04:40:48 AM
Yesterday I did something I said I wasn't interested in doing: a Haydn marathon. It wasn't planned, just sorta happened. And it was glorious 8)

37 Fischer
44 Weil
51 Weil
52 Weil
55 Fischer
56 Fischer
67 Sacher
67 Fischer
68 Harnoncourt
69 Fischer
70 Goodman
71 Goodman

Sarge

Man, that's a great lineup! I wish I had done that... :(

:) 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 04, 2013, 06:16:27 AM

Quote from: Brian on November 03, 2013, 11:59:03 AM
Had my first disappointment today. No. 37 struck me as listless and uninteresting, with an especially dry, unwelcoming slow movement. Maybe the latter is the fault of DRD; I know the Hurwitzer griped about DRD's slow movements in general being non-expressive, but this is the first time I've noticed.

Quote from: Brian on November 03, 2013, 05:12:18 PM
Was my criticism justified? I guess even if it wasn't I'm entitled to have a least favorite or two.

I haven't heard DRD but Fischer's 37 (wildly misnumbered) is anything but listless. The first movement takes off at a true presto clip with great timpani whacks and trumpet accents that remind me of the way Fey conducts and balances Haydn's fast movements. The work as a whole is interesting (to me) as the first of the "pomp and circumstance" symphonies, a hint, a preview of what we'll get with the "Maria Theresia" and "Laudon." The themes are engaging and I like the way the Minuet, coming first, segues so smoothly into the Andante, which Fischer takes rather quickly but with expressive phrasing. The Trio, played with solo instruments instead of the full string compliment (just like 67), is a delight. (Is that Haydn's doing or Fischer's?) Sure, it's a slight symphony, a very early effort and not profound, but at 13 minutes it doesn't overstay its welcome.

In other words, I like it quite a bit more than you do. Whether the conductors make the difference or whether it's just a matter of taste here we won't know until we each hear both performances.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 04, 2013, 06:19:30 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 04, 2013, 05:28:24 AM
Man, that's a great lineup! I wish I had done that... :(

:) 8)

It was a reminder of how great those relatively obscure symphonies numbered between 50 and 80 are. So many gems there.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 04, 2013, 07:07:03 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 04, 2013, 06:19:30 AM
It was a reminder of how great those relatively obscure symphonies numbered between 50 and 80 are. So many gems there.

Sarge

Yeah, that reminds me, if Brian thought 67 was a bit bizarre, wait til he moves on to 60... :D

And as a flashback to my post yesterday about "Mr. Entertainment", here is a quote about #60:

QuoteThe conductor Kenneth Woods describes it as "the funniest and most modern work on [my] list, possibly the funniest and most modern symphony ever written. Haydn uses most of the 20th c 'isms' in this piece- surrealism, absurdism, modernism, poly-stylism, and hops effortlessly between tightly integrated symphonic argument and rapid-fire cinematic jump-cutting. This is Haydn at his absolute boldest- he undermines every expectation, and re-examines every possible assumption about music...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on November 04, 2013, 07:35:02 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 04, 2013, 07:07:03 AM
Yeah, that reminds me, if Brian thought 67 was a bit bizarre, wait til he moves on to 60... :D

And as a flashback to my post yesterday about "Mr. Entertainment", here is a quote about #60:

8)

Don't worry, I already love No. 60! It's a corker. :)

Sarge, it sounds like much of the blame for my problems with 37 lie with DRD/Stuttgart. For one thing, the performance took a few more than 13 minutes, if my memory's right. For another, his timpani are never especially prominent, sadly. I will have to listen to Fischer to rectify the impression.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on November 05, 2013, 11:24:22 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 03, 2013, 12:23:54 PM
No. The only PI 67 is Hogwood, and it is super. Just the parts that you were bewailing in the recording you listened to are up front in Hogwood, as well as those outstanding natural horns.

I'm listening to the Solomons recording of 67 now. Wonderful PI sound.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 06, 2013, 03:29:19 AM

Does anyone have a list of symphonies that Solomons recorded? I'd like to know what to expect if Sony ever re-issues the recordings.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2013, 04:16:46 AM

Quote from: Old Listener on November 05, 2013, 11:24:22 PM
I'm listening to the Solomons recording of 67 now. Wonderful PI sound.

Really? I wonder how it is that I've never seen that disk... :-\ Well, in any case, a reissue would do everyone a lot of good. That is, if Sony can get it's corporate head out of its corporate, umm, butt. ::)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2013, 04:17:41 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 06, 2013, 03:29:19 AM
Does anyone have a list of symphonies that Solomons recorded? I'd like to know what to expect if Sony ever re-issues the recordings.

Sarge

Well, I thought I did, Sarge, but clearly there is a disk I was unaware of. I will post the remainder of it tonight when I get home though.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2013, 08:26:19 AM

Quote from: Old Listener on November 05, 2013, 11:24:22 PM
I'm listening to the Solomons recording of 67 now. Wonderful PI sound.

Old Listener, do you have the CD's from Haydn House or are you listening to the vinyl? Volume 11 doesn't appear to have ever been officially transferred to CD, but Haydn House claims here that they have all 9 disks that never made it to CD (http://www.haydnhouse.com/HH21.htm). It's a pretty impressive list of works, although for $108 for the 9 disks, transferred by them from LP, it requires some thought. OK, I've thought about it.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2013, 10:07:45 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on November 06, 2013, 08:41:05 AM
Thanks for the link; I'll probably get the downloads. I don't need the physical items, especially at double the cost. But, I'm weird like that.

8)

Well, if it wasn't Haydn... it will be nice if they include any sort of liner note repros. Not that I recall the Vol 7 & 9 ones as being brilliant. ::)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on November 06, 2013, 11:15:38 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 06, 2013, 03:29:19 AM
Does anyone have a list of symphonies that Solomons recorded? I'd like to know what to expect if Sony ever re-issues the recordings.

I have 44 symphonies and an overture on my computer.

1-5
11,15,18,26, 27
32,33, 35,37,38,39
41-49
50-52
54-59
60, 63-69
Symphony 'A' in B flat major

Overture, La Pescatrici

I found CD one set and 2 single CDs (45 and 48on one CD and 39,45 and 59 on another CD). Someone gave me CD-Rs made from LP transfers. What a wonderful gift! Thanks, Fred.

Haydn House has some LP transfers for sale (http://www.haydnhouse.com/composer.htm)

From a description by Jim Strickland that I found years ago on the internet:

"Morzin Symphonies 1758-1760 Volume 1. Symphonies 1, 37, 18, 2, 15, 4,
and 10. 3 LP set; not released on CD.

Morzin Symphonies 1758-1760 Volume 2. Symphonies 32, 5, 11, 33, 27,
A, and 3. 3 LP set; not released on CD.

Sturm und Drang Symphonies 1766-1776 Volume 7. Symphonies 35, 38, 39,
49, 58, and 59. 3 CD set. This shows up occaisionally on Ebay.

Sturm und Drang Symphonies 1766-1776 Volume 8. Symphonies 26, 41, 43,
44, 48, and 52. 3 LP set; not released on CD.

Sturm und Drang Symphonies 1766-1776 Volume 9. Symphonies 42, 45, 46,
47, 51, and 65. 3 CD set.

Sturm und Drang Symphonies 1766-1776 Volume 10. Symphonies 50, 64,
54, 55, 56, and 57, plus the Overture to Le Pescatrici. 3 LP set; not
released on CD.

Sturm und Drang Symphonies 1766-1776 Volume 11. Symphonies 60, 63,
66, 67, 68, and 69. 3 LP set; not released on CD."

Solomons' 39, 45, 48 and 59 are my first choices for these works.

Bill

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2013, 11:40:45 AM

Thanks, Bill. Right now I have the Volume 7 & 9 and the single with 45 & 48. Although I have some mp3 downloads of most of the others, I don't count them as part of my collection because I am funny that way. I agree with you, 39, 45, 48 & 59 are brilliantly done. When I get home, I will refresh my memory of what others I favor. Goes without saying that I can't list them OTTOMH!! :o

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 06, 2013, 11:46:10 AM

Quote from: Old Listener on November 06, 2013, 11:15:38 AM
I have 44 symphonies and an overture on my computer...

Thanks for info. Much appreciated 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on November 06, 2013, 12:16:37 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2013, 11:40:45 AM
Although I have some mp3 downloads of most of the others, I don't count them as part of my collection because I am funny that way. I agree with you, 39, 45, 48 & 59 are brilliantly done.

That reminds me. I had CDs with some of Blum's Hayn symphonies but not all of his recordings. The Back Guild Haydn Symphonies set (MP3 downloads) on Amazon has 60,70, 73, 81, 90 and 91.

These are MP3 files but at $ 2.99 for the entire set, it is an easy way to get some of the Blum recordings you don't already have.

The Big Haydn Box is worth a look for Blum's 39 and 59 and for some other things like the Griller Quartet's Op. 71 and 74 recordings. At $ 0.99 for the set, it's a bargain.

Bill

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on November 07, 2013, 11:09:51 AM

My radar is set on these two:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51YyJXN15LL._SY300_.jpg)

Hob VI:1-6

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EbfbICheL._SX300_.jpg)

Any comments will be highly and warmly appreciated.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 07, 2013, 11:15:57 AM

Quote from: Florestan on November 07, 2013, 11:09:51 AM
My radar is set on these two:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51YyJXN15LL._SY300_.jpg)

Hob VI:1-6

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EbfbICheL._SX300_.jpg)

Any comments will be highly and warmly appreciated.

I am very partial to the Hob VI set. Guglielmo & Piva are as entertaining in this rep as Steck and Gooses, which is saying a lot! And at a fraction of Accent's high end price point, too. Highly recommended.

I totally don't know those symphony performances though... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 07, 2013, 05:05:40 PM

Despite the fact that we discussed the impending release of this disk several months ago, I don't feel particularly tardy to the party to admit that I just got it yesterday. It was a long time coming to Amazon, and the few advance offerings were OTT price-wise.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSchuppcover3_zpse8565d05.jpg)

Have to say though, even at the mildly inflated regular price (it's on Accent) it was a great purchase! :)

We are looking at a superb Op 20 #2, finally one as satisfactory as the Esterházy Quartet on Seon! The other two are equally high on my list of favorite quartets (somewhat of an oddity for an anthology to actually have 3 for 3 of my top picks), Op 54 #1 and Op 74 #3. Sound is superb, performance is even better. I can't deny that I've become a solid fan of Anton Steck, but the rest of his group ain't too shabby either. This quartet is on a par with the best PI quartets playing today. Highly recommended, as are the first two volumes of this series. Let's hear a Volume 4 soon! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 07, 2013, 05:18:04 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on November 07, 2013, 05:15:25 PM
Thanks, Gurn, for the comments, and the heads up that the disc is now available on Amazon. Immediately after posting this, I will plop it in my Shopping Cart.

:)

Hope you enjoy it as much as I do, San. Listening to the g minor again as I write this. Wonderful! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on November 07, 2013, 06:08:38 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 07, 2013, 05:05:40 PM
Despite the fact that we discussed the impending release of this disk several months ago, I don't feel particularly tardy to the party to admit that I just got it yesterday. It was a long time coming to Amazon, and the few advance offerings were OTT price-wise.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSchuppcover3_zpse8565d05.jpg)

:o :o :o
I need the smelling salts.

I actually got a Haydn recording before Gurn the Great got it! (I got mine through Arkivmusic.)
I've only given it one listen so far, as usual, but I heard no flaws in it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on November 07, 2013, 07:37:41 PM

Quote from: George on November 07, 2013, 05:44:44 PM
How do folks like the complete symphonies on Naxos? Is it HIP?

The Naxos recordings use a lot of bands.

copy-and-pasted: Sinfonia Finlandia Jyväskylä, Northern Chamber Orchestra, Cologne Chamber Orchestra, Toronto Chamber Orchestra, Nicolaus Esterhazy Sinfonia, Swedish Chamber Orchestra & Capella Istropolitana, Patrick Gallois, Nicholas Ward, Helmut Mühler-Brühl, Kevin Mallon, Bela Drahos & Barry Wordsworth

None of these are HIP, though Kevin Mallon has conducted many HIP recordings. The Sinfonia Finlandia and Swedish, Cologne & Toronto Chamber Orchs are pretty reliably excellent, while the Capella Istropolitana is one of the better of the generic Slovakian recording bands which my father fondly calls the "Bratislava Kitchen Ensembles". They do get trusted with a lot of top symphonies, including Farewell and almost all the Londons. Or maybe all the Londons, I'm not sure.

I can't pretend to have heard anything like all of these. General consensus is that a lot of stuff is indeed worthwhile, especially if you find an awesome price, but that people don't consider it a top choice for the complete cycle.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on November 07, 2013, 09:00:20 PM

Quote from: George on November 07, 2013, 05:44:44 PM
How do folks like the complete symphonies on Naxos? Is it HIP?

Béla Drahos is good.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on November 07, 2013, 11:48:41 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 07, 2013, 11:15:57 AM
I am very partial to the Hob VI set. Guglielmo & Piva are as entertaining in this rep as Steck and Gooses, which is saying a lot! And at a fraction of Accent's high end price point, too. Highly recommended.

I totally don't know those symphony performances though... :-\

8)

Thanks. I'll buy the sonatas on my next trip to the closest brick-and-mortar bookstore (so to speak, it's actually part of a mall... :) ).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 08, 2013, 05:48:38 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 07, 2013, 06:08:38 PM
:o :o :o
I need the smelling salts.

I actually got a Haydn recording before Gurn the Great got it! (I got mine through Arkivmusic.)
I've only given it one listen so far, as usual, but I heard no flaws in it.

:D Yes, I kept refusing to pay $35+ for a used copy that someone bought to rip and wanted to double their money from after. $25 is a high enough price for a single disk, even when you really want it!

Hope you listen again. It really is quite fine. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 08, 2013, 05:50:16 AM

Quote from: Florestan on November 07, 2013, 11:48:41 PM
Thanks. I'll buy the sonatas on my next trip to the closest brick-and-mortar bookstore (so to speak, it's actually part of a mall... :) ).

Hard for me to imagine a world with a real glass & aluminum music store in it! I got it online for around $5 US though, and it's hard to beat that! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 08, 2013, 06:11:27 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 07, 2013, 05:05:40 PMThe other two are equally high on my list of favorite quartets (somewhat of an oddity for an anthology to actually have 3 for 3 of my top picks)

I can't claim 3 for 3 but two of my Top 10 are on the CD. Looks like another purchase.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on November 08, 2013, 06:12:35 AM

Happy Haydn Haus Page 300 day! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on November 08, 2013, 06:17:28 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 08, 2013, 05:50:16 AM
Hard for me to imagine a world with a real glass & aluminum music store in it! I got it online for around $5 US though, and it's hard to beat that! :)

8)

Houston has one of the very finest in Joel's Classical Shop!

(http://s3-media3.ak.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/UUk3j-rjkGEMTyzqpKEgbw/o.jpg)

Joel recently died but his shop lives on. I remember talking to an employee in 2010 who joked, "Well, if we ever do go out of business, at least I'll have enough stuff to listen to for the rest of my life!"

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 08, 2013, 06:24:57 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 08, 2013, 06:11:27 AM
I can't claim 3 for 3 but two of my Top 10 are on the CD. Looks like another purchase.

Sarge

Sarge, I guarantee that you'll really like that Op 54 #1 also. They give it a really nice bit of oomph that is lacking in some versions I've heard. You'll be pleased with that purchase, no doubts! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 08, 2013, 06:25:43 AM

Quote from: Brian on November 08, 2013, 06:17:28 AM
Houston has one of the very finest in Joel's Classical Shop!

(http://s3-media3.ak.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/UUk3j-rjkGEMTyzqpKEgbw/o.jpg)

Joel recently died but his shop lives on. I remember talking to an employee in 2010 who joked, "Well, if we ever do go out of business, at least I'll have enough stuff to listen to for the rest of my life!"

Damn, almost makes me want to visit the Big City! Hmmm..... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on November 08, 2013, 06:29:17 AM

Quote from: Brian on November 08, 2013, 06:17:28 AM

(http://s3-media3.ak.yelpcdn.com/bphoto/UUk3j-rjkGEMTyzqpKEgbw/o.jpg)

Hmm, for a second I thought that was Gurn's Haydn storage room. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 08, 2013, 06:29:30 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on November 08, 2013, 05:51:38 AM
You know me, I downloaded the disc last night and listened to it - fantastic. I then listened to the other two volumes. When is #4 goiug to come out?

8)

:) Figured you might. Yes, that's a fair assessment, I think. Actually, I had my fears that Vol 3 would never be released, so I'll go with it for now. No worries about there being enough material to fill a Vol 4 (- 40) though, is there? ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 08, 2013, 06:30:13 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on November 08, 2013, 06:29:17 AM
Hmm, for a second I thought that was Gurn's Haydn storage room. ;D

Oh, those secret pix must have got out on Instagram.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on November 08, 2013, 08:16:55 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 08, 2013, 06:25:43 AM
Damn, almost makes me want to visit the Big City! Hmmm..... :)

8)

Makes me want to move to Houston. Or at least visit regularly.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on November 08, 2013, 08:47:36 AM

Quote from: Brian on November 07, 2013, 07:37:41 PM
The Naxos recordings use a lot of bands.

copy-and-pasted: Sinfonia Finlandia Jyväskylä, Northern Chamber Orchestra, Cologne Chamber Orchestra, Toronto Chamber Orchestra, Nicolaus Esterhazy Sinfonia, Swedish Chamber Orchestra & Capella Istropolitana, Patrick Gallois, Nicholas Ward, Helmut Mühler-Brühl, Kevin Mallon, Bela Drahos & Barry Wordsworth

None of these are HIP, though Kevin Mallon has conducted many HIP recordings. The Sinfonia Finlandia and Swedish, Cologne & Toronto Chamber Orchs are pretty reliably excellent, while the Capella Istropolitana is one of the better of the generic Slovakian recording bands which my father fondly calls the "Bratislava Kitchen Ensembles". They do get trusted with a lot of top symphonies, including Farewell and almost all the Londons. Or maybe all the Londons, I'm not sure.

I can't pretend to have heard anything like all of these. General consensus is that a lot of stuff is indeed worthwhile, especially if you find an awesome price, but that people don't consider it a top choice for the complete cycle.

Just two minor comments:

The Toronto Chamber Orchestra plays PI, AFAIK.

The Cologne Chamber Orchestra was a PI band during 10 years or something so (under the name Capella Clementina) and then decided to play modern instruments. IMO, one of the best HIP bands playing on MI.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on November 08, 2013, 12:42:40 PM

Quote from: ChamberNut on November 08, 2013, 06:12:35 AM
Happy Haydn Haus Page 300 day! :D

6000 replies!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on November 10, 2013, 04:29:04 AM

Quote from: mszczuj on November 08, 2013, 12:42:40 PM
6000 replies!

Must have been a good question.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on November 16, 2013, 05:46:18 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on October 21, 2013, 04:43:25 PM
Today, from the DRD set, disc # 4 and disc # 34

Disc 4

Symphony No. 11 in E flat major (The breathtaking, gorgeous I. Adagio Cantabile! Wow....) :-*
Symphony No. 5 in A major
Symphony No. 32 in C major

Disc 34

Symphony No. 97 in C major (Great timpani, effectively used I found in the III. Menuetto & Trio) :)
Symphony No. 99 in E flat major

Now, after 12 discs, I may have to take a break. :( Just want to make sure I'm giving each symphony its fair, attentive listen. Please don't kick me out of the Haus just yet. :D

After a break, continued on with the DRD/Stuttgart project. After 12 discs in October, I'm going on a 5 disc/per month, to allow more absorption and repeated listens to a symphony I feel I didn't give enough proper attention to. Thus, I have 5 months (including November) to go through the complete cycle once! :)

This week, I've listened to the following three discs:

Disc 25

Symphony No. 62 in D major
Symphony No. 74 in E flat major
Symphony No. 73 in D major "La Chasse" - Great! Effective pauses in the opening mvt., and that "Hunt" finale is definitely fantastic.

Disc 20

Symphony No. 56 in C major - This one has an utterly sublime Adagio II. mvt.
Symphony No. 57 in D major

Disc 23

Symphony No. 61 in D major - To the symphonies I've heard so far, this may be my favourite opening movement of a Haydn symphony after the Drum-Roll symphony. Driving, propulsive movement with some lovely solo woodwind passages. Also enjoy that final movement, with the humourous 'cuckoo' woodwind call, with a surprising but very brief stormy moment. This was an impact listen!

Symphony No. 53 in D major "L'Imperiale" - Great Menuetto and Trio, and wonderful final movement. I'd be surprised if Franz Schubert wasn't influenced or at least familiar with this symphony.

Symphony No. 70 in D major - Fantastic fugue finale. I love Haydn's 'soggy fugues' ;D, reminiscent of the Opus 20 quartets.

6 of the 8 happen to be in D major! :D That suits me just fine. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 16, 2013, 06:21:10 AM

That's a highly entertaining list, Ray, I can be sure you had a great time with those. I lot of Late Middle period works there, which Haydn was intentionally working at making entertaining rather than studied and deep. I think he was pretty good at that forgotten aspect of music. :)

I was looking at your last statement about the keys, and I would have tried to figure 'what are the odds?'. I can't do that, being math impaired, but I can tell you how many were written in each key and you can figure it yourself. BTW, both the first and last symphony were written in D major, his most common key. :)

A   8
B   1
Bb   14
C   19
c   3
D   21
d   3
Eb   11
E   2
e   1
F   7
f   1
f#   1
G   12
g   2
   106

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on November 16, 2013, 06:24:47 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 16, 2013, 06:21:10 AM
That's a highly entertaining list, Ray, I can be sure you had a great time with those. I lot of Late Middle period works there, which Haydn was intentionally working at making entertaining rather than studied and deep. I think he was pretty good at that forgotten aspect of music. :)

I was looking at your last statement about the keys, and I would have tried to figure 'what are the odds?'. I can't do that, being math impaired, but I can tell you how many were written in each key and you can figure it yourself. BTW, both the first and last symphony were written in D major, his most common key. :)

A   8
B   1
Bb   14
C   19
c   3
D   21
d   3
Eb   11
E   2
e   1
F   7
f   1
f#   1
G   12
g   2
   106

8)

That is interesting, Gurn! :) Guess what? In my random DRD/Stuttgart disc listen queue list, the next two discs happen to be Disc 1 and the final Disc 37. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 16, 2013, 06:29:11 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on November 16, 2013, 06:24:47 AM
That is interesting, Gurn! :) Guess what? In my random DRD/Stuttgart disc listen queue list, the next two discs happen to be Disc 1 and the final Disc 37. :D

That should make an interesting contrast. I've always felt that despite the fact that there are clearly great differences in the sophistication of the style of those two works in particular, it was never a mystery that they were composed by the same person. The 'classic Haydn style' developed early times, IMO. See what you think. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on November 16, 2013, 06:42:30 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 16, 2013, 06:29:11 AM
That should make an interesting contrast. I've always felt that despite the fact that there are clearly great differences in the sophistication of the style of those two works in particular, it was never a mystery that they were composed by the same person. The 'classic Haydn style' developed early times, IMO. See what you think. :)

8)

Hi Gurn, when you are saying Haydn's final symphony, are you referring to No. 104? Just making sure I'm on the same page. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 16, 2013, 06:44:28 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on November 16, 2013, 06:42:30 AM
Hi Gurn, when you are saying Haydn's final symphony, are you referring to No. 104? Just making sure I'm on the same page. 8)

Yes, 104, THE 'London' Symphony. In D. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on November 16, 2013, 06:47:20 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 16, 2013, 06:44:28 AM
Yes, 104, THE 'London' Symphony. In D. :)

8)

That's what I thought. Check! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 16, 2013, 11:04:50 AM

New acquisition, just arrived this week and having a first listen.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnLIsolaDisabitatadeMarchi_zpsa52fda5c.jpg)

I've been trying to round this up for several years now, but it was either unavailable or prohibitively expensive. Very recently, AMP has gotten a fair number of listings and I got this one from Momox in Germany for nearly nothing! It appears to be new, the disks were typically difficult to remove and the booklet hadn't been opened yet.

The opera itself is wonderfully performed. I have this work in one of my Dorati boxes, and not to take anything away from those landmark issues, this one has a more intimate feel to it. Academia Montis Regalis are familiar to me from some Vivaldi/Naive disks they have done, they are a superb ensemble. This carries over to opera as well. The singers, especially Anke Hermann as Silvia, are very much in tune with Haydn's style.

If you run across this disk on offer, you wouldn't be disappointed. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on November 16, 2013, 11:13:08 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 16, 2013, 11:04:50 AM
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnLIsolaDisabitatadeMarchi_zpsa52fda5c.jpg)

The Deserted Island --- yet there are at least four people on it. How come? ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 16, 2013, 11:14:59 AM

Quote from: Florestan on November 16, 2013, 11:13:08 AM
The Deserted Island --- yet there are at least four people on it. How come? ;D

Because the plot required someone to sing. It's opera, you need to refrain from asking 'why?'. Otherwise it would be '4:33' with a painted backdrop. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on November 16, 2013, 11:31:32 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 16, 2013, 11:14:59 AM
It's opera, you need to refrain from asking 'why?'.

Of course. Think Tristan und Isolde --- a guy who has just been stabbed in the back sings and sings and sings for almost three quarters of an hour... and we are supposed to believe that Wagner's plots are superior to Bellini's. Bah, humbug! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on November 17, 2013, 01:34:41 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 16, 2013, 11:04:50 AM
New acquisition, just arrived this week and having a first listen.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnLIsolaDisabitatadeMarchi_zpsa52fda5c.jpg)

I've been trying to round this up for several years now, but it was either unavailable or prohibitively expensive. Very recently, AMP has gotten a fair number of listings and I got this one from Momox in Germany for nearly nothing! It appears to be new, the disks were typically difficult to remove and the booklet hadn't been opened yet.

The opera itself is wonderfully performed. I have this work in one of my Dorati boxes, and not to take anything away from those landmark issues, this one has a more intimate feel to it. Academia Montis Regalis are familiar to me from some Vivaldi/Naive disks they have done, they are a superb ensemble. This carries over to opera as well. The singers, especially Anke Hermann as Silvia, are very much in tune with Haydn's style.

If you run across this disk on offer, you wouldn't be disappointed. :)

8)

Sound like a good catch, congrats! :) :)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 17, 2013, 07:12:35 AM

Quote from: Que on November 17, 2013, 01:34:41 AM
Sound like a good catch, congrats! :) :)

Q

Thanks, Q. I have slowly been acquiring the operas in alternative versions (to Dorati), but they are thin on the ground, and generally OOP. Anytime I can bolster that group I am always delighted. And this is a good one! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on November 17, 2013, 01:09:25 PM

This is a sure sign it will be reissued any minute.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 17, 2013, 01:14:47 PM

Quote from: The new erato on November 17, 2013, 01:09:25 PM
This is a sure sign it will be reissued any minute.

:) Wouldn't surprise me a bit. Still, $10 last week vs $75 last year made it a no brainer. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: prémont on November 18, 2013, 10:58:27 AM

Quote from: Gordo on November 08, 2013, 08:47:36 AM
The Toronto Chamber Orchestra plays PI, AFAIK.

A rather ambiguous explanation on the orchestras Naxos page:

The Toronto Chamber Orchestra is the brainchild of violinist and conductor Kevin Mallon. The orchestra is the "modern instrument" manifestation of the period instrument orchestra the Aradia Ensemble. As such, the players also play baroque instruments and all are well versed in stylistic issues from the 18th century to the modern day. The orchestra's approach is to extend to all periods of music the transparency and purity of tone one achieves with period instruments.

I read this in the way, that they play MI, when they use the name Toronto Chamber orchestra.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 18, 2013, 11:12:32 AM

Quote from: (: premont :) on November 18, 2013, 10:58:27 AM
A rather ambiguous explanation on the orchestras Naxos page:

The Toronto Chamber Orchestra is the brainchild of violinist and conductor Kevin Mallon. The orchestra is the "modern instrument" manifestation of the period instrument orchestra the Aradia Ensemble. As such, the players also play baroque instruments and all are well versed in stylistic issues from the 18th century to the modern day. The orchestra's approach is to extend to all periods of music the transparency and purity of tone one achieves with period instruments.

I read this in the way, that they play MI, when they use the name Toronto Chamber orchestra.

I would read it that way too. *sigh*

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 18, 2013, 11:29:37 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on November 18, 2013, 11:23:15 AM
Why are there any orchestras still playing Haydn on modern instruments?

:o

;D

I ain't touchin' that one! 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Roberto on November 18, 2013, 11:28:09 PM

Dear Haydn fans!
I've listened to the 104th symphony with Koopman/RCO on youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqIhR7aT3uc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqIhR7aT3uc))
It impressed me very much. I don't have any Haydn London symphonies album yet but I want to buy one. I like the speed and the last timpani roll of the Koopman performance also. I've listened to excerpts and samples but I didn't find it on other recordings. Do you have any suggestion which London symphonies box should I buy? I prefer period instrument performances but I like modern instrument performances also if it has good balance.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on November 19, 2013, 01:06:59 AM

Quote from: Roberto on November 18, 2013, 11:28:09 PM
Dear Haydn fans!
I've listened to the 104th symphony with Koopman/RCO on youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqIhR7aT3uc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqIhR7aT3uc))
It impressed me very much. I don't have any Haydn London symphonies album yet but I want to buy one. I like the speed and the last timpani roll of the Koopman performance also. I've listened to excerpts and samples but I didn't find it on other recordings. Do you have any suggestion which London symphonies box should I buy? I prefer period instrument performances but I like modern instrument performances also if it has good balance.

I would go with Minkowski. http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/12/best-recordings-of-2010-3.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2010/12/best-recordings-of-2010-3.html) Fits your criteria for the most part... PI, modern sound, vivacious and swift. Other than that, Fey, the "Hobbit" (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00004UAJF/goodmusicguide-20), is modern instruments but rocks just about everybody's world.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on November 19, 2013, 01:20:25 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on November 18, 2013, 11:23:15 AM
Why are there any orchestras still playing Haydn on modern instruments?

:o

;D

Why aren't all orchestras playing on modern instruments playing Haydn?!?

(It'd do them a world of good!)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on November 19, 2013, 02:47:46 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on November 18, 2013, 11:23:15 AM
Why are there any orchestras still playing Haydn on modern instruments?

:o

;D

Well, it is a blessing that we have a choice of recordings to enjoy, both on period instruments and on modern instruments.

I tend to not be a fan of 'period instrument' performances for Baroque, Classical and Romantic Era composers, although, I've encountered exceptions. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 19, 2013, 05:28:47 AM

Quote from: Roberto on November 18, 2013, 11:28:09 PMI like the speed and the last timpani roll of the Koopman performance also.

I listened to Norrington/Stuttgart, Norrington/LCP, Jochum, Bernstein, Fey, Kuijken, Minkowski and Hogwood. The closest to Koopman in tempo and timpani presence in the last movement is Hogwood:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/aug11/haydn100104hogwood.jpg)

Lenny and Jochum apparently gave the timpanist the day off. Minkowski and Kuijken are rather laid back with a noticeably slower tempo; and while their drums can be heard they seem to be buried in the bars I think you are talking about. Fey, as usual, has spectacular drums...until the end :(

Unfortunately Hogwood didn't complete his cycle. No complete set of Londons from him. The next best, in terms of what you are looking for, is Norrington Stuttugart, I think. It just happens to be my favorite set of Londons. Modern instruments but HIP.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/oct2009/HayLonNor.jpg)

P.S. In none of the versions I listened to does the timpanist play exactly the same notes Koopman's does. I think he improvises a few extra wacks 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 19, 2013, 05:47:48 AM

Timpani cadenza! Bring it!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on November 20, 2013, 12:41:46 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on November 18, 2013, 11:23:15 AM
Why are there any orchestras still playing Haydn on modern instruments?

:o

;D

Because most orchestral musicians, when involved in a concert covering a range of musical eras, don't have another instrument handy for the next piece. If you want to tell every ensemble that they must restrict themselves to music of a specific generation and never venture outside it until they purchase the correct instruments, then go for it, but I won't be joining you.

EDIT: I can't wait until someone argues one shouldn't attend a Haydn concert in modern clothing. And that one must change at interval because they're playing Brahms next.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on November 20, 2013, 01:11:46 AM

Quote from: orfeo on November 20, 2013, 12:41:46 AM
Because most orchestral musicians, when involved in a concert covering a range of musical eras, don't have another instrument handy for the next piece. If you want to tell every ensemble that they must restrict themselves to music of a specific generation and never venture outside it until they purchase the correct instruments, then go for it, but I won't be joining you.

EDIT: I can't wait until someone argues one shouldn't attend a Haydn concert in modern clothing. And that one must change at interval because they're playing Brahms next.

I think you've gone a little too literal on sanantonio. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on November 20, 2013, 01:24:47 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on November 20, 2013, 01:11:46 AM
I think you've gone a little too literal on sanantonio. ;)

And I think I can post my thoughts regardless of how literal anyone else might be. They're not necessarily directed at sanantonio, despite the use of the word 'you'. But we don't have separate quote buttons for 'reply' and 'reference'.

And we don't, in this darned language called English, have distinct words for second-person-singular and second-person-general-abstract.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 20, 2013, 04:14:30 AM

Quote from: orfeo on November 20, 2013, 12:41:46 AM

EDIT: I can't wait until someone argues one shouldn't attend a Haydn concert in modern clothing. And that one must change at interval because they're playing Brahms next.

:( So you're saying l should put my blue frock cat and yellow breeches back into storage? Damn, I looked so cool with my shiny black boots too. *sigh*

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on November 20, 2013, 04:26:36 AM

Well, you can turn up in that if you really want to.

And in the privacy of your own home, who am I to judge?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 20, 2013, 04:30:08 AM

Quote from: orfeo on November 20, 2013, 04:26:36 AM
Well, you can turn up in that if you really want to.

And in the privacy of your own home, who am I to judge?

Soon it would be a national cult. If you keep your 'Young Werther' outfit long enough, it will be fashionable yet again. :) You're right though, you don't even want to know what I wear at home. :D :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 20, 2013, 04:38:53 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 20, 2013, 04:30:08 AM
Soon it would be a national cult. If you keep your 'Young Werther' outfit long enough, it will be fashionable yet again.

"MOM! I can't BELIEVE you threw out my old galligaskins!"

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on November 20, 2013, 04:57:13 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 20, 2013, 04:30:08 AM
Soon it would be a national cult. If you keep your 'Young Werther' outfit long enough, it will be fashionable yet again. :) You're right though, you don't even want to know what I wear at home. :D :D

8)

There ought to be a YouTube video of Gurn in full period costume demanding an encore of a Haydn andante movement.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 20, 2013, 05:00:17 AM

Quote from: Brian on November 20, 2013, 04:57:13 AM
There ought to be a YouTube video of Gurn in full period costume demanding an encore of a Haydn andante movement.

Just before the concert, in my Werthertracht...

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/GurninWerthertracht_zps7c1c90c6.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 20, 2013, 07:12:59 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 18, 2013, 08:15:18 AM
Curious what you think of that disk, Sarge. I am quite keen on it, but that's just me. :)

8)

Yes, it's a good one although I have a few quibbles. The Nimbus sound is rather congested compared to Fey (his recording of the Horn Concerto and "Hornsignal"). In Goodman's Symphony the horns occasionally overwhelm the rest of the orchestra. The Hänssler is better balanced, the sections and instruments distinct, audible but nothing dominating, everything easy to hear. Whether it's the Nimbus sonics or Hampstead's natural tone, he sounds slightly muffled when he isn't playing forté. Bruns for Fey produces a brighter tone overall. That doesn't mean Bruns is better, just different. Goodman's way with the Concerto is probably the way it should go but I like how Fey turns it into a Sturm und Drang piece 8) And, believe it or not, I enjoy Fey's harpsichordist in the Concerto! (No...HIP aliens have not taken over my body :D ) He adds some delightful curlicues and flourishes. This is one time I wish Goodman's harpsichord were more prominent (I can't believe I said that....maybe I have been assimilated ??? )

But despite the above, I do really enjoy Goodman's performances too.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on November 20, 2013, 12:09:23 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 20, 2013, 05:00:17 AM
Just before the concert, in my Werthertracht...

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/GurninWerthertracht_zps7c1c90c6.jpg)

8)

This thread has just become magnificent.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Roberto on November 20, 2013, 12:39:41 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 19, 2013, 05:28:47 AM
I listened to Norrington/Stuttgart, Norrington/LCP, Jochum, Bernstein, Fey, Kuijken, Minkowski and Hogwood. The closest to Koopman in tempo and timpani presence in the last movement is Hogwood:

Lenny and Jochum apparently gave the timpanist the day off. Minkowski and Kuijken are rather laid back with a noticeably slower tempo; and while their drums can be heard they seem to be buried in the bars I think you are talking about. Fey, as usual, has spectacular drums...until the end :(

Unfortunately Hogwood didn't complete his cycle. No complete set of Londons from him. The next best, in terms of what you are looking for, is Norrington Stuttugart, I think. It just happens to be my favorite set of Londons. Modern instruments but HIP.

Thank you for the valuable suggestions!
I like Hogwood's Mozart Piano concertos so I will try to listen to his Haydn too.
As for the complete London set I will listen to samples of the other recordings you mentioned.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on November 20, 2013, 01:38:42 PM

Another vote for Kuijken and la Petite Bande. I also have Fischer, Dorati and Harnoncourt, but they run 4th, 3rd and 2nd (respectively) to Kuijken. Excellent recordings (very transparent), perfect tempos (full of life but not rushed), robust and grandiose interpretations with a small orchestra. I return very often to these performances (Haydn being my favourite composer) and I never tire of them. Perfection ....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 20, 2013, 03:41:14 PM

I would vote for ANYONE above Kuijken. I had his Paris symphonies and I thought they were dreadful. I am in the minority on this matter, so take that for what it's worth.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on November 20, 2013, 04:19:50 PM

Quote from: alkan on November 20, 2013, 01:38:42 PM
Another vote for Kuijken and la Petite Bande. I also have Fischer, Dorati and Harnoncourt, but they run 4th, 3rd and 2nd (respectively) to Kuijken. Excellent recordings (very transparent), perfect tempos (full of life but not rushed), robust and grandiose interpretations with a small orchestra. I return very often to these performances (Haydn being my favourite composer) and I never tire of them. Perfection ....

I totally agree with this.

I have always loved Kuijken's ideas on Haydn: the symphonies recorded by him, the disk with the cello concertos and the sinfonia concertante, some string quartets, the Creation, the Seasons, those flute quartets on Accent... All very close to my idea of how Haydn should be performed. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 21, 2013, 03:11:53 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 20, 2013, 05:00:17 AM
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/GurninWerthertracht_zps7c1c90c6.jpg)

Dude, you must have felt naked! Just sent the wig out to be freshly powdered, had you? 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on November 21, 2013, 04:24:45 AM

Amicus Haydn, sed magis amica pera (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21529.msg759975.html#msg759975)... ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 21, 2013, 04:30:34 AM

Quote from: Florestan on November 21, 2013, 04:24:45 AM
Amicus Haydn, sed magis amica pera (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21529.msg759975.html#msg759975)... ;D

Well, for a brick-and-mortar store, that's probably standard. They have overhead that must be covered to keep the doors open. It isn't a too high price for the product, but it is twice what I paid. If it was on the scale vs the others you bought, I would still have 2€ in my pocket.... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 21, 2013, 04:31:52 AM

A Fistful of Euros

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on November 21, 2013, 04:33:36 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 21, 2013, 04:30:34 AM
It isn't a too high price for the product, but it is twice what I paid. If it was on the scale vs the others you bought, I would still have 2€ in my pocket.... :D

Haydn, Haydn ueber alles... ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on November 21, 2013, 04:33:53 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 21, 2013, 04:31:52 AM
A Fistful of Euros

If only it were full...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 21, 2013, 04:34:48 AM

Yes to both of the previous... 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on November 21, 2013, 10:34:49 AM

This is also expensive for my wallet, but highly tempting...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51OXXuRPLkL._SY300_.jpg)

Should I, sometimes in the future?...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on November 21, 2013, 10:54:48 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 20, 2013, 03:41:14 PM
I would vote for ANYONE above Kuijken. I had his Paris symphonies and I thought they were dreadful. I am in the minority on this matter, so take that for what it's worth.

There is nothing more subjective than music !!

But I am curious to hear the reasons that caused you to react so strongly against Kuijken's version of the Paris symphonies. I have these recordings to and whilst I would rate them slightly lower than his London symphonies, I still enjoy them very much.

Which recordings do you prefer?

Thanks

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 21, 2013, 11:21:20 AM

Quote from: Florestan on November 21, 2013, 10:34:49 AM
This is also expensive for my wallet, but highly tempting...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51OXXuRPLkL._SY300_.jpg)

Should I, sometimes in the future?...

I've been looking at that too. I like Augér's voice so much that I can nearly overcome my distaste for the modern piano. Let me know what you think. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 21, 2013, 11:31:05 AM

Gurn must answer, but I had taken that as ". . . in this literature."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 21, 2013, 11:36:27 AM

Quote from: George on November 21, 2013, 11:24:28 AM
Hi Gurn,

Is that in all works, like the romantic era ones, too?

No, those were written for modern piano, so I find it totally appropriate. Doesn't matter though, since I don't listen to modern music like that. :)

8)

Quote from: karlhenning on November 21, 2013, 11:31:05 AM
Gurn must answer, but I had taken that as ". . . in this literature."

Just so...

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 21, 2013, 11:42:36 AM

Wig powdered to Mijnheer's satisfaction?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 21, 2013, 12:04:29 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 21, 2013, 11:42:36 AM
Wig powdered to Mijnheer's satisfaction?

*takes pinch of snuff* Why yes, nice work, lackey! *sneezes* :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 21, 2013, 12:06:49 PM

Quote from: alkan on November 21, 2013, 10:54:48 AM
There is nothing more subjective than music !!

But I am curious to hear the reasons that caused you to react so strongly against Kuijken's version of the Paris symphonies. I have these recordings to and whilst I would rate them slightly lower than his London symphonies, I still enjoy them very much.

Which recordings do you prefer?

Thanks

Sure. I can do that. Let me start with how I picked Kuijkin in the first place. At the time, I had virtually no symphonies - just the Londons (with Davis). I was not really focused on HIP or modern, but just a good recording of the Paris symphonies (and the Paris symphonies seemed the natural next buy). I picked the Kuijkin, because there seemed to be pretty universal praise for them (in terms of speeds, transparency, and overall sound). As a result, my expectations were high. I include this just to lay the foundation.

I will use the Bear (#82) to compare, because it is one of my favorites and is first on the the disc (and thus easier to compare with the comparison Bear under Fischer). I only have these two recordings of this particular symphony (for reference, I do have a disc or two of Norrington and Orpheus in other symphonies, while my library has Dorati).

There are three big problems I have:
1. Sound - The biggest issue here is that bass/low reister instruments are lacking. This creates an imbalance in the sound, but makes it high pitched sounding with not enough presence from the bottom. Fischer has a strong bass/low register sound, reinforced by the reverb. For me, this makes the piece uncomfortable to listen to (Kuijkin).
2. Balance - As mentioned, the balance is totally out of whack with the violin and similarly high pitched instruments overly dominant. It almost sounds like a violin concerto - it's that bad.
3. Phrasing - It is too stacatto, so much so that there are often gaps in the playing (where the silence is left to go on for too long). This utterly destroys the flow and the overall line. This is not to say that every note is played this way, just that this is the impact it creates. This impact is evident in the very opening, in fact in just the first 10-15 seconds. I could be willing to forgive some of the more temporary issues, but losing the line is a major no-no in my book.

This recording is often praised for its transparency, and I agree that it is a strength, except that in this case it simply makes all the problems from 1, 2 and 3 stand out even more. Thus, its strength becomes a major liability.

I find I like the rubato/change in speeds of the Fischer better than the more consistent Kuijkin (except that it can become monochromatic at times) - though only really in the opening movement. The Fischer is also smoother.

There are other issues, but really these are the most telling for me. The result is that I simply cannot take it. Admittedly, 82 is the worst and it does seem to improve in the second grouping (88-92). Perhaps they were recorded at a different time - I have not checked. Anyway, that about sums it up.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Roberto on November 21, 2013, 12:17:40 PM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 21, 2013, 12:06:49 PM
There are three big problems I have:

Very helpful post! As for the sound: the forceful low register is important for me too (with forceful timpani :)) :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 21, 2013, 12:25:48 PM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 21, 2013, 12:06:49 PM
....it does seem to improve in the second grouping (88-92). Perhaps they were recorded at a different time - I have not checked. Anyway, that about sums it up.

Well, you know, they are two different orchestras, so one will expect some differences. The 'Paris' set is the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment, while the balance of them are Les Petites Bande.

I have settled on Harnoncourt for the Paris works. Kuijken/LPB are very satisfactory (but not alone) in the others. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 21, 2013, 12:28:02 PM

Quote from: George on November 21, 2013, 12:26:27 PM

Ok, one last question, so to you, modern is post-classical period?

Post-Schubert. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 21, 2013, 02:28:52 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on November 21, 2013, 12:35:24 PM
As you can see, we disagree completely.

;)

Ain't it grand! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 21, 2013, 05:29:23 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 20, 2013, 07:12:59 AM
Yes, it's a good one although I have a few quibbles. The Nimbus sound is rather congested compared to Fey (his recording of the Horn Concerto and "Hornsignal"). In Goodman's Symphony the horns occasionally overwhelm the rest of the orchestra. The Hänssler is better balanced, the sections and instruments distinct, audible but nothing dominating, everything easy to hear. Whether it's the Nimbus sonics or Hampstead's natural tone, he sounds slightly muffled when he isn't playing forté. Bruns for Fey produces a brighter tone overall. That doesn't mean Bruns is better, just different. Goodman's way with the Concerto is probably the way it should go but I like how Fey turns it into a Sturm und Drang piece 8) And, believe it or not, I enjoy Fey's harpsichordist in the Concerto! (No...HIP aliens have not taken over my body :D ) He adds some delightful curlicues and flourishes. This is one time I wish Goodman's harpsichord were more prominent (I can't believe I said that....maybe I have been assimilated ??? )

But despite the above, I do really enjoy Goodman's performances too.

Sarge

Thanks for that report, Sarge. Very interesting.

It doesn't surprise me in some ways that the Hännsler sound is better, that jibes up with my experience over the years. I'm curious if you chose Fey for comparison because it is your favorite? I haven't heard it, the only MI Hornsignal I've heard is Fischer, which is also very good.

It is my opinion that the differences in the horn sound do not lie with the players but with the nature of the instruments. Modern horns, of course, have rotary valves, while natural horns involve sticking ones hand in the bell to make chromatic notes. This naturally causes some muffling such as you describe. There is a lot to be said for the modern horn!

I am stunned over your admission about the harpsichord! Is this truly our Sarge, or a pod-creature! :D :D Well, as I've stated many times here, I go both ways on the harpsichord front, actually not having a preference. I have been considering snapping up that particular Fey disk while it is still readily available. Perhaps I will do on my next order. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on November 21, 2013, 09:45:43 PM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 20, 2013, 03:41:14 PM
I would vote for ANYONE above Kuijken. I had his Paris symphonies and I thought they were dreadful. I am in the minority on this matter, so take that for what it's worth.

The Kuijken Paris symphony CDs are among the few CDs I have gotten rid of after years of trying to find some merit in them.

Bill

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on November 22, 2013, 02:43:50 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on November 21, 2013, 03:19:35 PM
;D

Enjoy Haydn, no matter which conductor!

This is true, the notes in the score don't lie. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on November 22, 2013, 03:08:38 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on November 22, 2013, 02:43:50 AM
This is true, the notes in the score don't lie. 8)

That's the reason why I buy discs, not scores. Those "liars" are a lot of fun. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 22, 2013, 03:16:23 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 21, 2013, 05:29:23 PM
Thanks for that report, Sarge. Very interesting.
It doesn't surprise me in some ways that the Hännsler sound is better, that jibes up with my experience over the years. I'm curious if you chose Fey for comparison because it is your favorite? I haven't heard it, the only MI Hornsignal I've heard is Fischer, which is also very good.

Fey employs PI brass and horns. I chose Fey because his soloist, Bruns, uses a natural horn like Hampstead. Despite that, he produces a somewhat brighter sound than Hampstead. I don't know if Fey is my favorite 31. I haven't compared it to all my Hornsignals. I normally just enjoy what I'm currently listening to without thinking too critically. Besides Fey and Goodman, I have Hogwood, Fischer and Mackerras.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 22, 2013, 03:33:47 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on November 22, 2013, 03:19:14 AM
Don't tell James, but that sentence pretty much sums me up.

:)

Your secret is safe with me 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 22, 2013, 03:48:11 AM

The truth is even greater fun, and beautiful to boot 0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 22, 2013, 03:48:51 AM

Pfffftttt

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on November 22, 2013, 04:04:51 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 22, 2013, 03:48:51 AM
Pfffftttt

That is under the B, I, N, G or O line, surely, in the classic James Bingo card. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 22, 2013, 04:09:08 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 22, 2013, 03:16:23 AM
Fey employs PI brass and horns. I chose Fey because his soloist, Bruns, uses a natural horn like Hampstead. Despite that, he produces a somewhat brighter sound than Hampstead. I don't know if Fey is my favorite 31. I haven't compared it to all my Hornsignals. I normally just enjoy what I'm currently listening to without thinking too critically. Besides Fey and Goodman, I have Hogwood, Fischer and Mackerras.

Sarge

Ah yes, I see. Well, there is no doubt that it is an art, and some players and some horns even are just better at it. Koster is a fine example. There is hardly a hornist I can think of that surpasses him. It's just like real times!! :)

I've heard a variety of good things about that Mackerras. Easy to believe, his efforts rarely suck. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 22, 2013, 04:26:28 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on November 22, 2013, 04:04:51 AM
That is under the B, I, N, G or O line, surely, in the classic James Bingo card. 8)

Mais oui!

Happy Friday, gents!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on November 22, 2013, 04:45:22 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 22, 2013, 03:48:11 AM
The truth is even greater fun, and beautiful to boot 0:)

Yes, but right now I'm just so comfortable in my dark cave... Sun and light are a bit overrated, IMO. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 22, 2013, 04:48:53 AM

The sun is our friend, but we must respect his power . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on November 22, 2013, 05:01:28 AM

This may or may not be relevant..

Quote from: PicassoArt is a lie that makes us realize the truth

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 22, 2013, 05:08:43 AM

Just gimme some truth . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on November 22, 2013, 05:33:08 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on November 22, 2013, 05:18:59 AM
You can't handle the truth ...

On the contrary, truth is quite manageable because it consists simply in a particular way in which the words are related among them.

It's not about things in themselves (if this exist), but about propositions on those things.

But, after all, I work in legal affairs, so maybe I'm a bit biased in favor of this vantage point. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 22, 2013, 05:38:39 AM

Artistic truth is another matter (or another passel of matters), and maybe he's right: maybe we cannot handle it . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 22, 2013, 05:46:27 AM

You can't handle Tom Cruise . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on November 22, 2013, 05:47:29 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 22, 2013, 05:38:39 AM
Artistic truth is another matter (or another passel of matters), and maybe he's right: maybe we cannot handle it . . . .

Well, seriously speaking, to many people law is quite the same:

Jus est ars boni et aequi. "Law is the science of what is good and just". Dig. 1, 1, 1, 1; Bract, fol. 2b.

(Wikipedia is so useful!)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on November 22, 2013, 05:55:21 AM

Quote from: Gordo on November 22, 2013, 05:47:29 AM
Jus est ars boni et aequi. "Law is the science of what is good and just". Dig. 1, 1, 1, 1; Bract, fol. 2b.

As opposed to legislation, which is the science of what is harmful and unjust. ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 22, 2013, 06:05:17 AM

Dat ain't no science!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on November 22, 2013, 06:16:09 AM

Quote from: Florestan on November 22, 2013, 05:55:21 AM
As opposed to legislation, which is the science of what is harmful and unjust. ;D ;D ;D

Funny but/and true. Those Roman jurists were thinking of law as a case-to-case art, where the law is "said" for the particular case, as a sort of tailored suit.

On the contrary, modern legislation is general and abstract and its model is the science.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on November 22, 2013, 06:37:52 AM

We now return to our regularly scheduled program...maybe.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on November 22, 2013, 07:16:12 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on November 22, 2013, 06:37:52 AM
We now return to our regularly scheduled program...maybe.

Come on, Greg ... You love digressions too. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on November 22, 2013, 07:27:31 AM

Quote from: Gordo on November 22, 2013, 06:16:09 AM
Funny but/and true. Those Roman jurists were thinking of law as a case-to-case art, where the law is "said" for the particular case, as a sort of tailored suit.

On the contrary, modern legislation is general and abstract and its model is the science.

Exactly. (http://mises.org/books/Freedom_and_the_Law_Leoni.pdf)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on November 22, 2013, 08:32:36 AM

Quote from: Gordo on November 22, 2013, 07:16:12 AM
Come on, Greg ... You love digressions too. :D

Not a big fan of digressions. Wow, I had some great coffee this morning.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on November 22, 2013, 09:18:44 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on November 22, 2013, 08:32:36 AM
Not a big fan of digressions. Wow, I had some great coffee this morning.

I'd love to start "The Digressions' Thread". But a "thread" is essentially contradictory with the very essence of a digression... Wait a minute: Is that an airplane on the street? 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on November 22, 2013, 09:21:16 AM

Quote from: Florestan on November 22, 2013, 07:27:31 AM
Exactly. (http://mises.org/books/Freedom_and_the_Law_Leoni.pdf)

Yes! I have that in Spanish translation (Unión Editorial). I also own his "Lecciones de filosofía del derecho". :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 24, 2013, 05:29:19 AM

Many of you expressed an interest in some of the early symphonies. I have been working on that topic in my blog, including this post yesterday. There are some interesting historical aspects regarding Haydn's oeuvre beginning about this time, thought you might be interested.

1763 – The Music part 2 – New things; Newer things - And so, I told you that so I could tell you this; Symphony #34 is a sinfonia da Chiesa. The lovely Adagio opening movement is nearly exactly as long as the remaining three movements combined. The overall tone of this movement is one of profound sadness. Despite the fact that there has never been any demonstrable indication that Haydn's personal feelings were transmitted into his music, I find it more than a little coincidental that Haydn's father, Mathias, died in September of 1763, which would be right at the same time that this work was composed.... (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/)

Hope you have time to check it out.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 24, 2013, 05:55:04 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 24, 2013, 05:29:19 AM
Many of you expressed an interest in some of the early symphonies. I have been working on that topic in my blog, including this post yesterday....Hope you have time to check it out.

Good read...and now I'll just have to listen to 34 and 13 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 24, 2013, 05:58:39 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 24, 2013, 05:55:04 AM
Good read...and now I'll just have to listen to 34 and 13 8)

Sarge

Thanks, Sarge. When I was researching that post I realized that 34 was a mystery even to me. I replayed it several times to get a feel for it. Somehow I thought that Haydn's first minor key symphony would have gained some sort of fame if for no other reason. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on November 24, 2013, 07:32:14 AM

Added Nos. 34 and 72 to today's listening as I drive downtown to meet a friend for lunch at the Pecan Lodge, Texas Monthly's official #2-ranked barbecue joint in Texas...

(http://kevinsbbqjoints.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/pecan4.jpg)

Will report back on both the symphonies and the lunch! By the way, yesterday I listened to DRD/Stuttgart's "Palindrome" and "Farewell" symphonies, and am starting to agree with the criticism leveled by the Hurwitzer, that the opening allegros are too slow/stodgy. Tafelmusik/Weil's "Farewell" opens so aggressively, it's like getting a bucket of ice water thrown at your head. Whereas DRD's is more like a stranger frowning at you.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 24, 2013, 07:39:36 AM

Quote from: Brian on November 24, 2013, 07:32:14 AM
Added Nos. 34 and 72 to today's listening as I drive downtown to meet a friend for lunch at the Pecan Lodge, Texas Monthly's official #2-ranked barbecue joint in Texas...

Will report back on both the symphonies and the lunch! By the way, yesterday I listened to DRD/Stuttgart's "Palindrome" and "Farewell" symphonies, and am starting to agree with the criticism leveled by the Hurwitzer, that the opening allegros are too slow/stodgy. Tafelmusik/Weil's "Farewell" opens so aggressively, it's like getting a bucket of ice water thrown at your head. Whereas DRD's is more like a stranger frowning at you.

It is MY belief that #45 should open like a bucket of ice water being thrown at your head. Weil does that well, so do Solomons and Immerseel. People have traditionally criticized the HIP way of doing things, but kicking some slowpokes in the ass at appropriate times is one of the virtues of HIP playing. Allegro assai is Allegro assai and should be played as such. Boy, that's two great works to listen to, though. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on November 24, 2013, 04:49:23 PM

That Hogwood box set of symphonies looks quite interesting, and those listening to it seem to like it. Yes? Thoughts?

It strikes me as a good way of getting a recording of all the 'earlier' works while minimising overlap with what little I've got. I have a recording of the 'London' symphonies, and from earlier discussions here I've got my eyes on Kujiken for symphonies 82-92.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 24, 2013, 04:53:36 PM

Quote from: orfeo on November 24, 2013, 04:49:23 PM
That Hogwood box set of symphonies looks quite interesting, and those listening to it seem to like it. Yes? Thoughts?

It strikes me as a good way of getting a recording of all the 'earlier' works while minimising overlap with what little I've got. I have a recording of the 'London' symphonies, and from earlier discussions here I've got my eyes on Kujiken for symphonies 82-92.

Precisely so. I would not be without it. There are alternatives that one can pick up as one goes along, but for the first 75 plus 4 of the London's, you would be hard pressed to surpass this. The final 30 or so have plenty of alternatives available so no problem getting any or all of those in very good versions. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on November 24, 2013, 05:01:06 PM

I see Mr Hurwitz gave a volume 3 marks out of 10. Around here I gather this is an affirmation of the disc's quality.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 24, 2013, 05:14:55 PM

Quote from: orfeo on November 24, 2013, 05:01:06 PM
I see Mr Hurwitz gave a volume 3 marks out of 10. Around here I gather this is an affirmation of the disc's quality.

I don't care for the bastard even during those rare occasions when I agree with him. Somewhere he writes that the period instruments sound good except he doesn't like the horns, they should play with modern horns. Does it require much thought to see the silliness in that statement? :)

So yes, affirmation indeed!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on November 24, 2013, 10:55:48 PM

Quote from: orfeo on November 24, 2013, 04:49:23 PM
That Hogwood box set of symphonies looks quite interesting, and those listening to it seem to like it. Yes? Thoughts?

It strikes me as a good way of getting a recording of all the 'earlier' works while minimising overlap with what little I've got. I have a recording of the 'London' symphonies, and from earlier discussions here I've got my eyes on Kujiken for symphonies 82-92.

If I didn't own 1/2 to 2/3 of the Hogwood symphonies, I'd buy the box. The performances don't wear out on me.

As a way to get a 1st set of all the Haydn before 82, I still like the Adam Fischer set. His 1-81 are fine. 82-104 are not special and have the Nimbus sound.

For a single set of 88-92, the Rattle / BPO set is an easy choice. I especially like the performance of 90. Good performances of 91 are not plentiful and his is good.

Bill

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on November 25, 2013, 06:46:30 AM

Quote from: Brian on November 24, 2013, 07:32:14 AM
Added Nos. 34 and 72 to today's listening as I drive downtown to meet a friend for lunch at the Pecan Lodge, Texas Monthly's official #2-ranked barbecue joint in Texas...

(http://kevinsbbqjoints.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/pecan4.jpg)

Will report back on both the symphonies and the lunch! By the way, yesterday I listened to DRD/Stuttgart's "Palindrome" and "Farewell" symphonies, and am starting to agree with the criticism leveled by the Hurwitzer, that the opening allegros are too slow/stodgy. Tafelmusik/Weil's "Farewell" opens so aggressively, it's like getting a bucket of ice water thrown at your head. Whereas DRD's is more like a stranger frowning at you.

No. 34 is a tough nut to crack - that first movement lament is so sincere and so impassioned that I, too, felt like I was hearing another "side" of Haydn, but then it's back to his usual merriment for the next three. Shostakovich's Sixth Symphony comes to mind, oddly, but that's another symphony with a funereal opener that dwarfs the rest and sort of challenges you with the contrast.

No. 72 was a really nice piece.

The barbecue was fairly good - the brisket was special, I was able to cut one slice with my fork (though not the other slice). Great link of spicy, thick sausage. On the other hand, dull fried okra and mediocre mac'n'cheese, and they were kinda stingy on the onion slices. If this is #2, I must be pickier than anyone else in Texas.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 25, 2013, 11:49:41 AM

Huss, Manfred - I've really enjoyed his performances over the years - now listening to the Music for Prince Esterházy & the King of Naples, also own the Early Divertimenti box - total of 11 CDs in those 2 boxes. I have the Overtures set (believe 2 discs), too - any comments on some of Huss' other Papa Haydn offerings? Thanks - Dave :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-qVV2vdj/0/O/Haydn_HussNaples.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-2rDwzDL/0/O/Haydn_Huss.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2013, 12:35:35 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on November 25, 2013, 11:49:41 AM
Huss, Manfred - I've really enjoyed his performances over the years - now listening to the Music for Prince Esterházy & the King of Naples, also own the Early Divertimenti box - total of 11 CDs in those 2 boxes. I have the Overtures set (believe 2 discs), too - any comments on some of Huss' other Papa Haydn offerings? Thanks - Dave :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-qVV2vdj/0/O/Haydn_HussNaples.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-2rDwzDL/0/O/Haydn_Huss.jpg)

Hey Dave!

I have the entire range of them. The '3 Theatrical Symphonies' disk will duplicate some music that you already have, albeit in fine performances in their own right. The first Italian opera, Acide, is the only recorded performance of that work. You can read my comments about it here (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2013/11/1762-the-music-part-3-at-last-a-real-opera.html), to save me rewriting it. The single disk Opera at Eszterháza is really very good, it features arias from various operas with soloists like Miah Persson. If you aren't an opera guy, this will give you a good taste without overwhelming you. The marionette opera, Philemon and Baucis is interesting and enjoyable, although I haven't explored it in depth yet, just a couple of listens. I have no regrets for having the entire set, the band plays great and their choice of music is off the beaten path, as you have discovered with those 2 boxes you already have! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on November 25, 2013, 04:53:28 PM

Tonight, Disc 1 and Disc 37 (the book ends) :D of the Dennis Russell Davies and Stuttgart Chamber Orchestra set! :)

Disc 1

Symphony No. 1 in D major - Wow! Quite a debut symphony. Marvelous, and quite mature sounding, to my ears.
Symphony No. 37 in C major - This one has a really splendid trio in that II. movt. Menuet.
Symphony No. 18 in G major
Symphony No. 2 in D major

Disc 37

Symphony No. 101 in D major "The Clock" Great Adagio intro, and what a truly sublime Andante II. mvt. :)
Symphony No. 105 in B flat major "Sinfonia Concertante" Brilliant!! Definitely more of a multiple instrument concerto feel, beautifully played solo instrumental passages.

That's it until December. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2013, 05:40:44 PM

Quote from: ChamberNut on November 25, 2013, 04:53:28 PM
Tonight, Disc 1 and Disc 37 (the book ends) :D of the Dennis Russell Davies and Stuttgart Chamber Orchestra set! :)

Disc 1

Symphony No. 1 in D major - Wow! Quite a debut symphony. Marvelous, and quite mature sounding, to my ears.
Symphony No. 37 in C major - This one has a really splendid trio in that II. movt. Menuet.
Symphony No. 18 in G major
Symphony No. 2 in D major

Disc 37

Symphony No. 103 in D major "The Clock" Great Adagio intro, and what a truly sublime Andante II. mvt. :)
Symphony No. 105 in B flat major "Sinfonia Concertante" Brilliant!! Definitely more of a multiple instrument concerto feel, beautifully played solo instrumental passages.

That's it until December. :)

Great choices, Ray. I see you had the same impression of #1 as I did. Interesting. :)

FYI, just in the event that they didn't tell you this bit, 1, 37, 18 & 2 are actually symphonies 1, 2, 3 & 4 chronologically. So you really are listening from the beginning. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 26, 2013, 02:17:41 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on November 25, 2013, 04:53:28 PM
Symphony No. ~~103~~ 101 in D major "The Clock" Great Adagio intro, and what a truly sublime Andante II. mvt. :)

Corrected your typo. 101 is one of my favorites (although with Haydn symphonies a non-favorite list would be considerably shorter 8) )

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on November 26, 2013, 03:09:16 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 26, 2013, 02:17:41 AM
Corrected your typo. 101 is one of my favorites (although with Haydn symphonies a non-favorite list would be considerably shorter 8) )

Sarge

Oops, thanks Sarge! :) I've now made the edit. How could I have put # 103? I must have been thinking of perhaps my favourite (if I could chose only one), that being the 'Drumroll' symphony. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 26, 2013, 07:16:41 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 25, 2013, 12:35:35 PM
Hey Dave!

I have the entire range of them. The '3 Theatrical Symphonies' disk will duplicate some music that you already have, albeit in fine performances in their own right. The first Italian opera, Acide, is the only recorded performance of that work. You can read my comments about it here (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2013/11/1762-the-music-part-3-at-last-a-real-opera.html), to save me rewriting it. The single disk Opera at Eszterháza is really very good, it features arias from various operas with soloists like Miah Persson. If you aren't an opera guy, this will give you a good taste without overwhelming you. The marionette opera, Philemon and Baucis is interesting and enjoyable, although I haven't explored it in depth yet, just a couple of listens. I have no regrets for having the entire set, the band plays great and their choice of music is off the beaten path, as you have discovered with those 2 boxes you already have! :)

8)

Hi Gurn - thanks for the comments above; Susan & I are not really opera fans - we have the Piedmont Opera locally & also national traveling operas coming through Charlotte often but have never gone - we did see an opera at the Met a couple of visits ago (Verdi) - an experience but felt no need to go back; my father had series tickets decades ago to traveling operas put on @ the Toledo Museum of Art; mother refused to go so I was usually dragged along - maybe that's the issue? SO, don't own any operas at all - guess that my substitute is having a LOT of cantatas, especially of Bach. :) Dave

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2013, 07:26:45 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on November 26, 2013, 07:16:41 AM
Hi Gurn - thanks for the comments above; Susan & I are not really opera fans - we have the Piedmont Opera locally & also national traveling operas coming through Charlotte often but have never gone - we did see an opera at the Met a couple of visits ago (Verdi) - an experience but felt no need to go back; my father had series tickets decades ago to traveling operas put on @ the Toledo Museum of Art; mother refused to go so I was usually dragged along - maybe that's the issue? SO, don't own any operas at all - guess that my substitute is having a LOT of cantatas, especially of Bach. :) Dave

Hey, Dave,
Well I can understand not going for Romantic Grand Opera, I find it to be a bit OTT myself! Haydn's operas, and Classical operas in the Gluckian tradition in general, tend to be lighter fare. Haydn's Prince, by all accounts, was partial to long recitatives, and so there is a lot of that, but if you aren't doing it to follow the plot, you can just listen to the arias and duettos and it is highly satisfactory. That's why I was thinking that this one would find favor with you;

[asin]B002YC22IK[/asin]

Haydn had a tremendous skill for writing arias. Even I like them, and I wouldn't touch a cantata... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on November 26, 2013, 07:29:15 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on November 26, 2013, 03:09:16 AM
Oops, thanks Sarge! :) I've now made the edit. How could I have put # 103? I must have been thinking of perhaps my favourite (if I could chose only one), that being the 'Drumroll' symphony. :D

And on the principle that even "Homer nods" , even the Maven of Mavens, the Haydnisto of Haydnistos did not catch it (see reply 6075)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2013, 07:32:25 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 26, 2013, 07:29:15 AM
And on the principle that even "Homer nods" , even the Maven of Mavens, the Haydnisto of Haydnistos did not catch it (see reply 6075)

Nah, I was paying much closer attention to the first disk on the list. It's true though, when I see Clock, I read '101' no matter what's really there... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 26, 2013, 07:37:44 AM

(* chortle *)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 26, 2013, 07:41:40 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2013, 07:26:45 AM
Hey, Dave,
Well I can understand not going for Romantic Grand Opera, I find it to be a bit OTT myself! Haydn's operas, and Classical operas in the Gluckian tradition in general, tend to be lighter fare. Haydn's Prince, by all accounts, was partial to long recitatives, and so there is a lot of that, but if you aren't doing it to follow the plot, you can just listen to the arias and duettos and it is highly satisfactory. That's why I was thinking that this one would find favor with you;

[asin]B002YC22IK[/asin]

Haydn had a tremendous skill for writing arias. Even I like them, and I wouldn't touch a cantata... :)

8)

Gurn - OK, you've convinced me! :D Now, I have SO MUCH Haydn (and greatly enjoy his masses), so will add the set you recommend (will go in my Amazon cart today!) - but don't get me into trying his songs - ;) Thanks for the 'thumbs up' - Dave

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2013, 08:14:32 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on November 26, 2013, 07:41:40 AM
Gurn - OK, you've convinced me! :D Now, I have SO MUCH Haydn (and greatly enjoy his masses), so will add the set you recommend (will go in my Amazon cart today!) - but don't get me into trying his songs - ;) Thanks for the 'thumbs up' - Dave

:D :D OK, no songs. Although if you change your mind, come see me. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 26, 2013, 08:19:56 AM

"Got a little song here that Haydn learnt in prison . . . ."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2013, 08:22:23 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 26, 2013, 08:19:56 AM
"Got a little song here that Haydn learnt in prison . . . ."

I hear the train a'comin'
it's rollin' 'round the bend
and I ain't seen the sunshine since
I don't know when....

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2013, 04:02:37 PM

Quote from: George on November 26, 2013, 01:38:39 PM
(http://www.naive.fr/img/front/pho/works/1200x1200/005941.jpg)

This beauty arrived today. My girlfriend and I are enjoying Op. 20.

Very cool, George! That's what they should have dine with it to start with instead of 2 boxes. Does it still have jewel boxes in it so it is now 9" wide? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2013, 05:12:44 PM

Quote from: George on November 26, 2013, 05:08:56 PM
No jewel boxes, tastefully colored and designed cardboard sleeves (with enough room to easily slide discs out), 100 page booklet.

Ah, excellent packaging choice! They even combined both (all) booklets into one. Naive is such a good label! The only screwup they aver made, IMO, other than letting things go out of print so much, was to publish all their box sets with each disk in its own jewel box. How much shelf space do they think I have? And now that is fixed. The perfect label? Hmmm... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on November 26, 2013, 05:16:12 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2013, 05:12:44 PMThe perfect label?

Alpha's gotta be in the running there! Or Alia Vox... only 20 pages of the booklet may be in English, but holding a 300 page book in your hands knowing they sent it to you with your CD is pretty cool.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2013, 05:19:04 PM

Quote from: Brian on November 26, 2013, 05:16:12 PM
Alpha's gotta be in the running there! Or Alia Vox... only 20 pages of the booklet may be in English, but holding a 300 page book in your hands knowing they sent it to you with your CD is pretty cool.

Yeah, Alia Vox is the Cadillac of booklets. The one that comes with Savall's "Seven Last Words" is over 100 pages all in its own! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2013, 05:21:55 PM

Quote from: George on November 26, 2013, 05:18:31 PM
An awesome label! Did I mention that my box was only $45.96 shipped? 0:)

No, that's awesome! I paid ~$35 each for the two boxes I have, and that was awesome at the time (they were going for $45 and up). The singles would have cost me hundreds though, since they were all OOP, so the vultures were working them pretty hard. >:(

Good on ya! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on November 26, 2013, 06:29:38 PM

Quote from: George on November 26, 2013, 01:38:39 PM
(http://www.naive.fr/img/front/pho/works/1200x1200/005941.jpg)

This beauty arrived today. My girlfriend and I are enjoying Op. 20.

Bravo, George!
Maybe this will lower the cost for their Op. 64 and 76, I only need those and would almost be spending the same for those two as I would for this set.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on November 26, 2013, 06:44:18 PM

Quote from: George on November 26, 2013, 06:40:42 PM
If that's the case, why not just get the set? I ran into a similar situation with the Rubinstein Complete Album set. Finally, I just bit the bullet and bought the box.

Good point. Could always sell or give my individual discs away. Plus that artwork on the box set's cover is gorgeous.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 26, 2013, 06:56:18 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2013, 05:12:44 PM
The perfect label?

Opera Rara. Outstanding booklets. Interesting essays. Great pictures. High quality all around.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 27, 2013, 08:20:57 AM

Quote from: George on November 26, 2013, 05:18:31 PM
An awesome label! Did I mention that my box was only $45.96 shipped? 0:)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2013, 05:21:55 PM
No, that's awesome! I paid ~$35 each for the two boxes I have, and that was awesome at the time (they were going for $45 and up). The singles would have cost me hundreds though, since they were all OOP, so the vultures were working them pretty hard. >:(

Hi George - where did you purchased the box? MDT across the pond has it for $38.50 - NOW, like Gurn, I already own the two 5 CD jewel box sets - probably could get $20 or so selling them to Princeton Record Exchange, SO is $20 worth saving the space? Hmmm - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on November 27, 2013, 08:26:08 AM

Quote from: George on November 26, 2013, 01:38:39 PM
(http://www.naive.fr/img/front/pho/works/1200x1200/005941.jpg)

This beauty arrived today. My girlfriend and I are enjoying Op. 20.

Is the Quatuor Mosaiques a period instrument or modern instrument string quartet set? :)

I keep hearing praise for QM's Haydn cycle.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 27, 2013, 08:29:26 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on November 27, 2013, 08:26:08 AM
Is the Quatuor Mosaiques a period instrument or modern instrument string quartet set? :)

I keep hearing praise for QM's Haydn cycle.

QM is about as PI as you can get. They made a movie about them last year called Life of PI... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on November 27, 2013, 08:43:34 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 27, 2013, 08:29:26 AM
QM is about as PI as you can get. They made a movie about them last year called Life of PI... :D

8)

;D OK, thanks Gurn! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on November 27, 2013, 09:40:06 AM

Quote from: George on November 27, 2013, 09:22:52 AM
I've now heard their Op. 20 for the first time. The recorded sound and the performances are beautiful and soothing, but overall it seems too soothing and lacking in excitement. Is it just me or does this group tend interpret Haydn in this manner?

I've only heard (& own) the latter half of the previous boxes, but yes, I suppose one could say that. I don't have any quarrel with their approach, though.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 27, 2013, 09:58:30 AM

Quote from: George on November 27, 2013, 09:22:52 AM
(http://www.naive.fr/img/front/pho/works/1200x1200/005941.jpg)

I've now heard their Op. 20 for the first time. The recorded sound and the performances are beautiful and soothing, but overall it seems too soothing and lacking in excitement. Is it just me or does this group tend interpret Haydn in this manner?

Well, you are down to the root of the matter already. There has been some lively discussion about this topic in the past. You will find that most of the people who prefer the Festetics do so because they are just plain rowdier. I think the QM are virtually perfect, but I don't think perfect is the only possible outcome. The earlier opera (9 & 17) by the London Haydn Quartet are like that too. It comes down to what you are looking for. I think Haydn's personality would find rowdiness to be just right for him. I may be wrong, however. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 27, 2013, 10:34:06 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 27, 2013, 09:58:30 AM
Well, you are down to the root of the matter already. There has been some lively discussion about this topic in the past. You will find that most of the people who prefer the Festetics do so because they are just plain rowdier. I think the QM are virtually perfect, but I don't think perfect is the only possible outcome. The earlier opera (9 & 17) by the London Haydn Quartet are like that too. It comes down to what you are looking for. I think Haydn's personality would find rowdiness to be just right for him. I may be wrong, however. :)

Now Gurn is this from 'personal' experience? ;) :D Reminds me of some of Ronald Reagan's quotes like the one below - Dave :)

But for George, always nice to have your Haydn flavored w/ sugar one day and w/ pepper the next! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 27, 2013, 10:43:39 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on November 27, 2013, 10:34:06 AM
Now Gurn is this from 'personal' experience? ;) :D Reminds me of some of Ronald Reagan's quotes like the one below - Dave :)

But for George, always nice to have your Haydn flavored w/ sugar one day and w/ pepper the next! :)

Dave,
Well, I'm not yet at the point of channeling him... :D But everything I've read tells me that decorum is only appreciated when it was necessary. And even then, there was no restraint about sticking in a little joke or two. ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on November 27, 2013, 05:13:04 PM

Quote from: George on November 27, 2013, 09:22:52 AM
(http://www.naive.fr/img/front/pho/works/1200x1200/005941.jpg)

I've now heard their Op. 20 for the first time. The recorded sound and the performances are beautiful and soothing, but overall it seems too soothing and lacking in excitement. Is it just me or does this group tend interpret Haydn in this manner?

George, I'd say it isn't that the QM are 'lacking', it's just that their interpretive angle is more of an introspective one. I love how they dig into the crevices of each work. And they pull out some mighty fine jewels! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 27, 2013, 06:49:53 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 27, 2013, 10:43:39 AM
Dave,
Well, I'm not yet at the point of channeling him... :D But everything I've read tells me that decorum is only appreciated when it was necessary. And even then, there was no restraint about sticking in a little joke or two. ;)

Hi Gurn - of course, just a comic comment on my part - I've probably read 3-4 bios each on Haydn & Mozart over many years, and their Austrian humor seemed to be VERY down to earth (i.e. human bodily functions, fart jokes, etc.) which I can really relate to as a retired GI radiologist (my wife does not always appreciate my humor but she will chuckle). Haydn seemed to have had a GREAT sense of humor and loved practical jokes (some expressed in his works, of course), so we would probably loved to have been in his presence.

Years ago when the film Blazing Saddles was released, Susan & I went w/ her parents to see the movie in Millburn, NJ - her parents were both Jewish physicians and her mother rather 'straight-faced' - but when the scene (below) appeared (the 'bean' dinner @ the campsite) - she did laugh w/ reluctance - I enjoyed! BUT, I would loved to have been sitting next to Haydn & the Mozarts - I'm sure that they would have been laughing loudly and even rolling on the floors - JUST my impression of the humor they enjoyed from that period - that I can still relate - funny! Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 27, 2013, 06:57:46 PM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on November 27, 2013, 05:13:04 PM
George, I'd say it isn't that the QM are 'lacking', it's just that their interpretive angle is more of an introspective one. I love how they dig into the crevices of each work. And they pull out some mighty fine jewels! ;D

So interesting that you write that, because I find them quite the opposite - quite extrovert. If I had to characterize them, I would say sunny in disposition (in a good sense). But if you listen too long, you might feel a little sunburned. I find that if I listen to only one quartet at a time that they don't wear on me so much. I think others fare better in comparison, but I find it hard to knock a version that is so genial too much.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on November 27, 2013, 07:06:18 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on November 27, 2013, 06:49:53 PM
Hi Gurn - of course, just a comic comment on my part - I've probably read 3-4 bios each on Haydn & Mozart over many years, and their Austrian humor seemed to be VERY down to earth (i.e. human bodily functions, fart jokes, etc.) which I can really relate to as a retired GI radiologist (my wife does not always appreciate my humor but she will chuckle). Haydn seemed to have had a GREAT sense of humor and loved practical jokes (some expressed in his works, of course), so we would probably loved to have been in his presence.

Years ago when the film Blazing Saddles was released, Susan & I went w/ her parents to see the movie in Millburn, NJ - her parents were both Jewish physicians and her mother rather 'straight-faced' - but when the scene (below) appeared (the 'bean' dinner @ the campsite) - she did laugh w/ reluctance - I enjoyed! BUT, I would loved to have been sitting next to Haydn & the Mozarts - I'm sure that they would have been laughing loudly and even rolling on the floors - JUST my impression of the humor they enjoyed from that period - that I can still relate - funny! Dave :)

Perhaps the idea of "classical" equals "decorous" has too high an influence.

No, take out that "perhaps".

The idea that "serious" music requires a sense of "decorum" is in many ways an invention of the 19th century, or even later. Outside of church music, I'm sure the 18th century would be quite surprised to hear someone say music must always be dignified--and even with church music, the appropriate reverence was due to the place and occasion, not innate to the music itself.

I'm sure both Haydn and Mozart would be not merely astonished but probably annoyed with the idea that their music should be treated as some sort of museum piece; they'd probably be rushing to offer PDQ Bach new compositions to be included on his next CD.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on November 27, 2013, 07:55:41 PM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 27, 2013, 06:57:46 PM
So interesting that you write that, because I find them quite the opposite - quite extrovert. If I had to characterize them, I would say sunny in disposition (in a good sense). But if you listen too long, you might feel a little sunburned. I find that if I listen to only one quartet at a time that they don't wear on me so much. I think others fare better in comparison, but I find it hard to knock a version that is so genial too much.

It could come down to perspective. To me quartets like the Kodály are the ultimate in introspection: mellow and soothing - yet never sleepy. Next to them the QM do sound extrovert. But perhaps it's more a "middle-ground" thing for the QM since other quartets I feel are definitely more extrovert, like the Emerson (in the Emperor), the Leipzig, and the Ysaÿe (all great, btw).

Without the benefit of comparisons I'd say yeah the QM do have their extrovert moments but there's always that trademark reining in of the tension (to lay on the poetry) that I enjoy so much. Maybe it's these moments that stand out to me more, dunno. But if it were all tension and no stopping to smell the roses I'd be much less inclined to even give the QM the time of day.

And for me anyway I find I can sit through an entire QM Haydn disc without feeling the least bit burdened. I seldom can stop at one quartet.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 28, 2013, 06:38:57 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on November 27, 2013, 06:49:53 PM
Hi Gurn - of course, just a comic comment on my part - I've probably read 3-4 bios each on Haydn & Mozart over many years, and their Austrian humor seemed to be VERY down to earth (i.e. human bodily functions, fart jokes, etc.) which I can really relate to as a retired GI radiologist (my wife does not always appreciate my humor but she will chuckle). Haydn seemed to have had a GREAT sense of humor and loved practical jokes (some expressed in his works, of course), so we would probably loved to have been in his presence.

Years ago when the film Blazing Saddles was released, Susan & I went w/ her parents to see the movie in Millburn, NJ - her parents were both Jewish physicians and her mother rather 'straight-faced' - but when the scene (below) appeared (the 'bean' dinner @ the campsite) - she did laugh w/ reluctance - I enjoyed! BUT, I would loved to have been sitting next to Haydn & the Mozarts - I'm sure that they would have been laughing loudly and even rolling on the floors - JUST my impression of the humor they enjoyed from that period - that I can still relate - funny! Dave :)

One of my favorite little 'real time' biographical bits comes when Griesinger is just generally describing Haydn (keeping in mind that this is for a German audience); he goes on about his nut-brown complexion and the always present twinkle in his eye, but then adds this which seems do modestly amusing to me; " he had a guileless roguery, or what the British call humour, it was was one of his outstanding characteristics". His basic idea that this had to be explained somehow is what tickles me, I suppose. Caroline Pichler, daughter of a Viennese who used to run salons and was a great friend of music, wrote in her diary many years later that when Haydn and Mozart were present together at their house they behaved like naughty children, laughing and joking, one as bad as the other. Probably why they were such good friends, beyond the music. I agree, the great 'fart scene' from Blazing Saddles would have had them rolling in the aisles. Hell, it had me rolling in the aisle the first time I saw it. And the tenth. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 28, 2013, 05:25:50 PM

I've been looking at this recital disk for a while now and finally decided to take the plunge. Especially since it doesn't duplicate material from the Nuria Rial recital, nor the Huss Opera at Eszterháza disk either.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnOperarecitalBonitatibuscover_zps27b8250b.jpg)

As it turns out, Bonitatibus has a beautiful mezzo voice, navigating these rather difficult arias with apparent ease. I like mezzo's, the slightly lower pitch just falls more easily on my ear!

The included works are:
1. La Fedeltà premiata, opera, H. 28/10: Sinfonia
2. La Fedeltà premiata, opera, H. 28/10: Recitativo accompagnato: Barbaro conte... è questa la mercè
3. La Fedeltà premiata, opera, H. 28/10: Aria: Dell'amor mio fedele
4. La Fedeltà premiata, opera, H. 28/10: Aria: Placidi ruscelletti
5. Orlando Paladino (Der Ritter Roland), opera, H. 28/11: Sinfonia - Entrata d'Alcina
6. Orlando Paladino (Der Ritter Roland), opera, H. 28/11: Aria: Ad un guardo
7. Sono Alcina e sono ancora, aria for soprano & orchestra (for Gazzaniga's L'isola di Alcina), H. 24b/9
8. La Vera costanza, opera, H. 28/8: Sinfonia
9. La Vera costanza, opera, H. 28/8: Recitativo accompagnato: Misera, chi m'aiuta
10. La Vera costanza, opera, H. 28/8: Aria: Dove fuggo
11. L'infedeltà delusa, opera, H. 28/5: Aria: Ho un tumore in un ginocchio
12. L'infedeltà delusa, opera, H. 28/5: Aria: Trinche vaine allegramente
13. D'una sposa meschinella, aria for soprano & orchestra (for Paisiello's La Frascatana; doubtful), H. 24b/2
14. L'isola disabitata, opera, H. 28/9: Overtura
15. L'isola disabitata, opera, H. 28/9: Aria: Se non piange un infelice
16. Arianna a Naxos ('Teseo mio ben'), cantata for soprano & keyboard, H. 26b/2: Recitativo: Teseo mio ben! Ove sei? Ove sei tu?
17. Arianna a Naxos ('Teseo mio ben'), cantata for soprano & keyboard, H. 26b/2: Aria: Dove sei, mio bel tesoro?
18. Arianna a Naxos ('Teseo mio ben'), cantata for soprano & keyboard, H. 26b/2: Recitativo: Poco da me lontano
19. Arianna a Naxos ('Teseo mio ben'), cantata for soprano & keyboard, H. 26b/2: Aria: Ah! che morir vorrei in si fatal momento

As you see, in addition to the arias there are three instrumental 'sinfonias' (overtures) which are very nicely played by Il Complesso Barocco / Alan Curtis. Curtis also plays the fortepiano for the cantata 'Arianna a Naxos', which Bonitatibus knocks the bottom out of.

If you are a Superaudio fan, this is a hybrid that will work very nicely for you, while still playing on a standard player. I think it is a disk that is deserving of your attention if you dig an aria from time to time. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 28, 2013, 05:35:31 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 28, 2013, 06:38:57 AM
One of my favorite little 'real time' biographical bits comes when Griesinger is just generally describing Haydn (keeping in mind that this is for a German audience); he goes on about his nut-brown complexion and the always present twinkle in his eye, but then adds this which seems do modestly amusing to me; " he had a guileless roguery, or what the British call humour, it was was one of his outstanding characteristics". His basic idea that this had to be explained somehow is what tickles me, I suppose. Caroline Pichler, daughter of a Viennese who used to run salons and was a great friend of music, wrote in her diary many years later that when Haydn and Mozart were present together at their house they behaved like naughty children, laughing and joking, one as bad as the other. Probably why they were such good friends, beyond the music. I agree, the great 'fart scene' from Blazing Saddles would have had them rolling in the aisles. Hell, it had me rolling in the aisle the first time I saw it. And the tenth. :)

Gurn - thanks for the comments - really reinforces my own feelings from reading about these two composers over the years - really appreciate your input on this thread! Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 28, 2013, 05:38:46 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on November 28, 2013, 05:35:31 PM
Gurn - thanks for the comments - really reinforces my own feelings from reading about these two composers over the years - really appreciate your input on this thread! Dave :)

And I, yours, my friend. I am afflicted with Crusaderism, but someone has to be! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on November 28, 2013, 08:49:05 PM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 27, 2013, 06:57:46 PM
because I find them quite the opposite - quite extrovert. If I had to characterize them, I would say sunny in disposition

I agree with this bit.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 29, 2013, 03:54:07 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 28, 2013, 05:38:46 PM
. . I am afflicted with Crusaderism, but someone has to be! :D

8)

Could be far worse. You could be Crusading for Hausstocken ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on November 29, 2013, 08:26:32 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 29, 2013, 03:54:07 AM
Could be far worse. You could be Crusading for Hausstocken ;)

You read my mind.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on December 02, 2013, 09:21:06 AM

Last night, listened to Disc 14 of the Dennis Russell Davies and Stuttgart Chamber Orchestra set! :)

Disc 14

Symphony No. 41 in C major - II. Un poco andante - marvelous, exquisite solo flute passages.

Symphony No. 65 in A major - What a great Finale. The fabulous horn call that recurs in this mvt., with an answer by the popping, incisve strings. :)

Symphony No. 48 in C major ~~"Saturn"~~ :D "Maria Theresia" - OK, this is the first time I mention Mozart, in regards to Haydn's symphonies. I must. I could not help but recall Mozart's Jupiter Symphony when hearing this. Especially, the first movement seemed totally 'late Mozart symphonic'. Once again, the Stuttgart strings are vigorous, incisive, propulsive. Man, people are right about the Stuttgart strings - they are fabulous! I think of this as a 'prequel' to Mozart's Jupiter Symphony. Was Mozart influenced by this symphony? If I am out to lunch, just take me out at the back of the 'Haydn Haus', Old Yeller style. ;D Anyways, and regardless, this was a magnificent work, from start to finish. One C major gem! :-*

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 02, 2013, 10:00:55 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on December 02, 2013, 09:21:06 AM
Last night, listened to Disc 14 of the Dennis Russell Davies and Stuttgart Chamber Orchestra set! :)

Disc 14

Symphony No. 41 in C major - II. Un poco andante - marvelous, exquisite solo flute passages.

Symphony No. 65 in A major - What a great Finale. The fabulous horn call that recurs in this mvt., with an answer by the popping, incisve strings. :)

Symphony No. 48 in C major ~~"Saturn"~~ :D "Maria Theresia" - OK, this is the first time I mention Mozart, in regards to Haydn's symphonies. I must. I could not help but recall Mozart's Jupiter Symphony when hearing this. Especially, the first movement seemed totally 'late Mozart symphonic'. Once again, the Stuttgart strings are vigorous, incisive, propulsive. Man, people are right about the Stuttgart strings - they are fabulous! I think of this as a 'prequel' to Mozart's Jupiter Symphony. Was Mozart influenced by this symphony? If I am out to lunch, just take me out at the back of the 'Haydn Haus', Old Yeller style. ;D Anyways, and regardless, this was a magnificent work, from start to finish. One C major gem! :-*

Good listening, Ray! You pose an interesting, albeit probably unanswerable, question with that last. One can only go by probabilities when it comes to influence, at least in this case. Haydn ->Mozart ->Haydn influence has been being debated for centuries now. :) It is believed that Haydn wrote Symphony 48 for a visit that the Empress paid to Eszterházy in the early 1770's. That in itself wouldn't have precluded Mozart hearing it, but it wasn't published, and it is unknown whether it was widely distributed or not, which probably means it wasn't since there apparently aren't very many copies of it extant. However, for all we know, Mozart slept with an autograph copy under his pillow.... :D It would have been a great work to emulate anyway.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 02, 2013, 10:24:22 AM

Submitted for your approval: another imponderable in Da Haus.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on December 02, 2013, 10:44:55 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 02, 2013, 10:00:55 AM
However, for all we know, Mozart slept with an autograph copy under his pillow.... :D 8)

Well, that MUST be the answer then!! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 02, 2013, 10:53:14 AM

Add to the large pile of Rumors Wilfully Started by Gurn . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on December 02, 2013, 10:54:11 AM

Hogwood/AAM box is on sale at ArkivMusic today only for $100. I'm thinking about it. Have not seen a better price...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on December 02, 2013, 11:00:17 AM

Aww, if only Mozart could have lived another 15 years or so.

Ludwig, Wolfie and Papa Jo could have collaborated on a "Planets" Symphony cycle. ;D Jupiter, of course, already done. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on December 02, 2013, 12:21:36 PM

Quote from: Brian on December 02, 2013, 10:54:11 AM
Hogwood/AAM box is on sale at ArkivMusic today only for $100. I'm thinking about it. Have not seen a better price...

Maybe you should consider Amazon.it:

http://www.amazon.it/The-Symphonies-J-Haydn/dp/B009LNI0T0/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1386019030&sr=8-1&keywords=haydn+hogwood

$73 plus sh. & h.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on December 03, 2013, 05:50:34 AM

Yesterday, listened to Disc 18 of the Dennis Russell Davies and Stuttgart Chamber Orchestra set! :)

Disc 18

Symphony No. 51 in B flat major Sparkling horns in the 1st mvt. However, it was the II. Adagio that floored me. High horn call, answered by a very low horn call (I thought it was a tuba or bassoon at first :D) This is seriously the most poignant, arresting classical era Adagio that I have heard since discovering Mozart's Gran Partita Serenade Adagio. It is gorgeous.

Symphony No. 64 in A major 'Tempora Mutantur' Ditto here for the II. Largo. Again, the effective use of the low horn is heart wrenching. The pauses are equally effective. The III. Menuet & Trio provides a much needed reprieve to the delicate melancholy of the Largo.

Needless to say, I was completed stunned and highly moved by the slow movements of both of these symphonies.

Would love to hear Gurn and others thoughts on these two beauties. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 03, 2013, 06:31:03 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on December 03, 2013, 05:50:34 AM
Yesterday, listened to Disc 18 of the Dennis Russell Davies and Stuttgart Chamber Orchestra set! :)

Disc 18

Symphony No. 51 in B flat major Sparkling horns in the 1st mvt. However, it was the II. Adagio that floored me. High horn call, answered by a very low horn call (I thought it was a tuba or bassoon at first :D) This is seriously the most poignant, arresting classical era Adagio that I have heard since discovering Mozart's Gran Partita Serenade Adagio. It is gorgeous.

Symphony No. 64 in A major 'Tempora Mutantur' Ditto here for the II. Largo. Again, the effective use of the low horn is heart wrenching. The pauses are equally effective. The III. Menuet & Trio provides a much needed reprieve to the delicate melancholy of the Largo.

Needless to say, I was completed stunned and highly moved by the slow movements of both of these symphonies.

Would love to hear Gurn and others thoughts on these two beauties. :)

Ray, well, you caught Haydn right in his sweet spot! Two of his very strongest abilities are writing slow movements and writing for horns. You are seeing the actuality of horns in those days. People tend to think of first horn, second horn etc. in terms of degree of difficulty, but back then it wasn't that so much as pitch. Hornists worked in pairs, one high, one low. Since the horns were pitched for it, the high part wasn't always the hardest.

If there is another composer who writes more beautiful slow movements than Haydn, I need to hear his work. 'Tempora Mutantur'. Times change. I read an essay a couple of years ago about this, IIRC the author postulates that Haydn was juxtaposing older styles against newer ones to show how that was true. Can't remember details, unfortunately. I'll see if I can find the essay again, now I'm curious. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on December 03, 2013, 09:03:18 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 03, 2013, 06:31:03 AM
Ray, well, you caught Haydn right in his sweet spot! Two of his very strongest abilities are writing slow movements and writing for horns. You are seeing the actuality of horns in those days. People tend to think of first horn, second horn etc. in terms of degree of difficulty, but back then it wasn't that so much as pitch. Hornists worked in pairs, one high, one low. Since the horns were pitched for it, the high part wasn't always the hardest.

If there is another composer who writes more beautiful slow movements than Haydn, I need to hear his work. 'Tempora Mutantur'. Times change. I read an essay a couple of years ago about this, IIRC the author postulates that Haydn was juxtaposing older styles against newer ones to show how that was true. Can't remember details, unfortunately. I'll see if I can find the essay again, now I'm curious. :)

8)

The low horn sounds in those two slow movements were haunting, almost eerie. Beautiful, yet slightly ominous. Fantastic.

Cool, I'd be interested in reading that essay, Gurn. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on December 03, 2013, 10:03:00 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on December 03, 2013, 05:50:34 AM
Yesterday, listened to Disc 18 of the Dennis Russell Davies and Stuttgart Chamber Orchestra set! :)

Disc 18

Symphony No. 51 in B flat major Sparkling horns in the 1st mvt. However, it was the II. Adagio that floored me. High horn call, answered by a very low horn call (I thought it was a tuba or bassoon at first :D) This is seriously the most poignant, arresting classical era Adagio that I have heard since discovering Mozart's Gran Partita Serenade Adagio. It is gorgeous.

Symphony No. 64 in A major 'Tempora Mutantur' Ditto here for the II. Largo. Again, the effective use of the low horn is heart wrenching. The pauses are equally effective. The III. Menuet & Trio provides a much needed reprieve to the delicate melancholy of the Largo.

Needless to say, I was completed stunned and highly moved by the slow movements of both of these symphonies.

Would love to hear Gurn and others thoughts on these two beauties. :)

I listened to loads of 51s recently -- the movement with the two horns -- and was very favourably impressed by Denis Russell Davies. I think you were lucky to discover the music in that recording.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 03, 2013, 10:07:06 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on December 03, 2013, 09:03:18 AM
The low horn sounds in those two slow movements were haunting, almost eerie. Beautiful, yet slightly ominous. Fantastic.

Cool, I'd be interested in reading that essay, Gurn. :)

I looked in the TOC of the book I thought it was in, but it wasn't. When I get home I'll try to find it and give you a citation.

Oh yes, no doubt. Hard to find a composer for the horn who did it better. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: GuybrushThreepwood on December 04, 2013, 05:04:36 PM

Anyone has some love for the Amsterdam String Quartet?

They have a superb SACD with op. 20-3, op. 74-1 and op. 76-1.

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/05/4yvyhapa.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 04, 2013, 05:08:34 PM

Quote from: GuybrushThreepwood on December 04, 2013, 05:04:36 PM
Anyone has some love for the Amsterdam String Quartet?

They have a superb SACD with op. 20-3, op. 74-1 and op. 76-1.

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/12/05/4yvyhapa.jpg)

I have both of their disks and am very fond of them. I like their style. I particularly enjoy the disk you pictured. The Op 74 #1 is as good as it gets. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 05, 2013, 04:43:16 AM

Mm, nice!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 07, 2013, 05:45:48 PM

I'm rather partial to Haydn's use of the less typical forms for his symphonies especially. I put this essay together on two consecutive church symphonies with greatly contrasting features. I welcome you to check it out and discuss here.

1764 – The Music – Two extremes of the Church Symphony (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2013/12/1764-the-music-part-1-two-extremes-of-the-church-symphony.html)

Hope you enjoy!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 07, 2013, 05:53:29 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 07, 2013, 05:45:48 PM
I'm rather partial to Haydn's use of the less typical forms for his symphonies especially. I put this essay together on two consecutive church symphonies with greatly contrasting features. I welcome you to check it out and discuss here.

1764 – The Music – Two extremes of the Church Symphony (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2013/12/1764-the-music-part-1-two-extremes-of-the-church-symphony.html)

Hope you enjoy!

8)

Enjoyed, very much. Thanks, Gurn. What are thoughts on Symphony No. 34 in D minor?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 07, 2013, 06:00:57 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 07, 2013, 05:53:29 PM
Enjoyed, very much. Thanks, Gurn. What are thoughts on Symphony No. 34 in D minor?

Thanks, Greg. I posted this link a couple of weeks ago and we discussed it briefly. Some folks were planning on giving it a listen, I am curious what they decided about it (those who didn't already post, that is).

Symphony #34 is a sinfonia da Chiesa. The lovely Adagio opening movement is nearly exactly as long as the remaining three movements combined. The overall tone of this movement is one of profound sadness. Despite the fact that there has never been any demonstrable indication that Haydn's personal feelings were transmitted into his music, I find it more than a little coincidental that Haydn's father, Mathias, died in September of 1763, which would be right at the same time that this work was composed. On the other side of the equation, noted Haydn scholar Elaine Sisman has suggested that this work was composed as incidental music for a play by Carlo Goldoni called The English Philosopher, so perhaps the music is merely reflecting a mood in the play. This would be more consistent with Haydn's known personality and ideals. The remaining three movements are all in sunny and bright D major, as different in mood from the opening as one can imagine. So the tonic D is seen throughout, and it is not unusual to see this work described as being in d minor/Major. It is one that deserves more recognition in any case, not least because it is Haydn's first minor mode symphony! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2013/11/1763-the-music-part-2-new-things-newer-things.html)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 07, 2013, 06:06:45 PM

A must have for Haydn Haus-mates. The trio in D major, No. 24 has been a favorite of mine among the trios, the transition from the Andante to the Allegro ma dolce is one of beauty, they seem to bleed into each other. Look for the Vienna Piano Trio for the most poetic No. 24. But the Trio Goya here is pure delight. But the real discovery for me is the E Major Trio, listed here as No.28, (but the Levin/Beths/Bylsma Trio have it as No.44, perhaps Gurn could help me with this numbering). At the center of E Major trio is a steadily moody Allegretto that turns suddenly playful at the final seconds. I'm really in love with this disc.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51d8WJrH7jL._SY350_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 07, 2013, 06:08:34 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 07, 2013, 06:00:57 PM
Thanks, Greg. I posted this link a couple of weeks ago and we discussed it briefly. Some folks were planning on giving it a listen, I am curious what they decided about it (those who didn't already post, that is).

Symphony #34 is a sinfonia da Chiesa. The lovely Adagio opening movement is nearly exactly as long as the remaining three movements combined. The overall tone of this movement is one of profound sadness. Despite the fact that there has never been any demonstrable indication that Haydn's personal feelings were transmitted into his music, I find it more than a little coincidental that Haydn's father, Mathias, died in September of 1763, which would be right at the same time that this work was composed. On the other side of the equation, noted Haydn scholar Elaine Sisman has suggested that this work was composed as incidental music for a play by Carlo Goldoni called The English Philosopher, so perhaps the music is merely reflecting a mood in the play. This would be more consistent with Haydn's known personality and ideals. The remaining three movements are all in sunny and bright D major, as different in mood from the opening as one can imagine. So the tonic D is seen throughout, and it is not unusual to see this work described as being in d minor/Major. It is one that deserves more recognition in any case, not least because it is Haydn's first minor mode symphony! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2013/11/1763-the-music-part-2-new-things-newer-things.html)

8)

Ah, thank you, Gurn. I did miss this link, haven't been as active as I would like to be lately. Off to read this, hopefully will have time to respond.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 07, 2013, 06:13:54 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 07, 2013, 06:06:45 PM
A must have for Haydn Haus-mates. The trio in D major, No. 24 has been a favorite of mine among the trios, the transition from the Andante to the Allegro ma dolce is one of beauty, they seem to bleed into each other. Look for the Vienna Piano Trio for the most poetic No. 24. But the Trio Goya here is pure delight. But the real discovery for me is the E Major Trio, listed here as No.28, (but the Levin/Beths/Bylsma Trio have it as No.44, perhaps Gurn could help me with this numbering). At the center of E Major trio is a steadily moody Allegretto that turns suddenly playful at the final seconds. I'm really in love with this disc.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51d8WJrH7jL._SY350_.jpg)

Greg,
Oh yes, I am very partial to that disk. The playing is superb, and of course, the music itself is Haydn at his peak writing in a form that he had grown to truly admire. The numbering is like this:

1795   38   24   D
1795   39   25   G
1795   40   26   f#
1795   41   31   eb
1796   42   30   Eb
1796   43   27   C
1796   44   28   E
1796   45   29   Eb

Where the second column are the actual chronological numbers as divined by Landon (Christa (Mrs.) in this case, I believe) while the third column are the Hoboken equivalents.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on December 07, 2013, 06:21:19 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 07, 2013, 06:06:45 PM
listed here as No.28, (but the Levin/Beths/Bylsma Trio have it as No.44, perhaps Gurn could help me with this numbering).

Actually, it's rather simple. Musicologists decided that Haydn chronology was not complicated enough, so they came up with two distinct numbering series for the trios.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 07, 2013, 06:40:11 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 07, 2013, 06:21:19 PM
Actually, it's rather simple. Musicologists decided that Haydn chronology was not complicated enough, so they came up with two distinct numbering series for the trios.

One day they will match the 4 or 5 available for the symphonies... they just aren't trying hard enough. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 08, 2013, 11:28:27 AM

With the intolerable weather outside, and the wife putting up the Christmas tree, I decided to get ahead of my schedule and post the next installment of HaydnSeek today. If you would like to check it out, here is a link to it;

Not to give the impression here that Haydn was hung up on writing Church Symphonies; that's just me. He was busy writing all sorts of other music too. Like these two works which are more typical of the work he was doing at the time, which was raising the symphony out of the muck in which it was born.... (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2013/12/1764-the-music-part-2-.html)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on December 09, 2013, 04:41:33 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 07, 2013, 06:21:19 PM
Actually, it's rather simple. Musicologists decided that Haydn chronology was not complicated enough, so they came up with two distinct numbering series for the trios.

Which is why nicknames, usually based on the dedicatees, are so helpful wherever possible. If you said that this E major trio was 'Jansen 2' I'd personally feel much more secure.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 09, 2013, 04:43:51 AM

Quote from: orfeo on December 09, 2013, 04:41:33 AM
Which is why nicknames, usually based on the dedicatees, are so helpful wherever possible. If you said that this E major trio was 'Jansen 2' I'd personally feel much more secure.

Even with the nicknames, I can rarely remember one Haydn piece from another.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 09, 2013, 04:45:29 AM

Quote from: orfeo on December 09, 2013, 04:41:33 AM
Which is why nicknames, usually based on the dedicatees, are so helpful wherever possible. If you said that this E major trio was 'Jansen 2' I'd personally feel much more secure.

Yes, but you can hardly start now, 200+ years ex post facto. I can barely make myself call Symphony 100 'Military', and it was called that even in Haydn's own time. A series of new nicknames would be distinctly unpalatable for many. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on December 09, 2013, 04:54:25 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 09, 2013, 04:45:29 AM
Yes, but you can hardly start now, 200+ years ex post facto. I can barely make myself call Symphony 100 'Military', and it was called that even in Haydn's own time. A series of new nicknames would be distinctly unpalatable for many. :-\

8)

If you ask me, 'Military' is one of the better nicknames, because it's got some decent connection to the music. 'Drumroll' and 'Surprise' are useful, but only for a few seconds each. 'Clock' manages to be right for one movement.

I've dispensed with 'Miracle' because it's not even attached to the right work. Although I do occasionally think of 'False Miracle' and 'True Miracle'.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2013, 05:06:51 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 09, 2013, 04:45:29 AMA series of new nicknames would be distinctly unpalatable for many. :-\

Excepting "Cat" for 99. All true lovers of Haydn want to see that nickname stick :D 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 09, 2013, 05:11:50 AM

The Cat is coming back!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2013, 05:14:03 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 08, 2013, 11:28:27 AM
With the intolerable weather outside, and the wife putting up the Christmas tree, I decided to get ahead of my schedule and post the next installment of HaydnSeek today. If you would like to check it out, here is a link to it;

Not to give the impression here that Haydn was hung up on writing Church Symphonies; that's just me. He was busy writing all sorts of other music too. Like these two works which are more typical of the work he was doing at the time, which was raising the symphony out of the muck in which it was born....[/color][/url]

8)

Another good read, Gurn, and inspiration for this afternoon's listening session. I just heard Hogwood's 24. I don't feel the "controlled lunacy" or the "phrenzy and fire" though. Not that it's not inherent in the music (I can imagine Fey bringing it out) but rather Hogwood's rather stately interpretation seems to downplay that aspect. I'll give Fischer a chance latter (those are the only two 24ths I have).

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 09, 2013, 05:20:01 AM

Hobbitish Haydnistas gather 'round . . . I presently have these volumes:

4 :: Symphonies n^os. 34, 39, 40 & 50
9 :: Symphonies n^os. 70, 73 & 75
14 :: Symphony n^o. 31, Hn Cti n^os. 1 & 2
17 :: Symphonies n^os. 1, 4, 5 & 10
21 :: Symphonies n^os. 99, 100 & Overtures

What one or two are indispensible additions?

TIA . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 09, 2013, 06:34:21 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2013, 05:14:03 AM
Another good read, Gurn, and inspiration for this afternoon's listening session. I just heard Hogwood's 24. I don't feel the "controlled lunacy" or the "phrenzy and fire" though. Not that it's not inherent in the music (I can imagine Fey bringing it out) but rather Hogwood's rather stately interpretation seems to downplay that aspect. I'll give Fischer a chance latter (those are the only two 24ths I have).

Sargar

Thanks, Sarge. I'm not sure that modern musicians, even ones of the stature of the AAM, can bring themselves to play some works from that time period at the speed that they were meant to be played. Goodman is quite a bit more zippy, but even so, not so much as just reading the score or hearing contemporary descriptions will have prepared you for. If it were possible, I would love to have all those players sit in a room with Haydn and let him lead them on. I suspect it would be revelatory (if not downright spooky! :o :o )

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 09, 2013, 06:36:09 AM

Zombie Haydn?!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 09, 2013, 06:36:15 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2013, 05:06:51 AM
Excepting "Cat" for 99. All true lovers of Haydn want to see that nickname stick :D 8)

Sarge

Well, that one for sure, but no others though... :) I'm just basically against the nickname idea, it didn't take a lot of discipline to learn the main numbering system, and then everyone knows what is what. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 09, 2013, 06:37:51 AM

Did you post about the divers Miracles, O Gurn?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 09, 2013, 06:39:20 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 09, 2013, 06:37:51 AM
Did you post about the divers Miracles, O Gurn?

Nah, hell, I'm only up to 1764 :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 09, 2013, 06:42:51 AM

Pace yourself, dude! And power to you, love your blog and overall efforts!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 09, 2013, 06:57:52 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 09, 2013, 06:42:51 AM
Pace yourself, dude! And power to you, love your blog and overall efforts!

Thank you, kind sir. I do it when I can; nothing for a week, then 3 essays in 2 days. As the muse moves me, I guess. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 09, 2013, 07:05:57 AM

Perfectly right.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 09, 2013, 07:57:53 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 09, 2013, 05:20:01 AM
Hobbitish Haydnistas gather 'round . . . I presently have these volumes:

4 :: Symphonies n^os. 34, 39, 40 & 50
9 :: Symphonies n^os. 70, 73 & 75
14 :: Symphony n^o. 31, Hn Cti n^os. 1 & 2
17 :: Symphonies n^os. 1, 4, 5 & 10
21 :: Symphonies n^os. 99, 100 & Overtures

What one or two are indispensible additions?

TIA . . . .

70/73/75...a must own. A Hurwitzer 10/10 and really deserves an 11/11 8) ;)

99 is Haydn's first symphony with clarinets and so I think it would be especially appealing to you, Karl. What's unique about Fey's Cat is the woodwind detail. In a sense it really made me hear the symphony, at least Haydn's brilliant wind writing, for the first time (I compared it to the other nine in my collection and none have Fey's razor sharp clarity). On the downside, and possibly a problem for some, the strings are rather backwardly placed, especially in the first movement. Fey's "Military" is good too but not as revelatory. In fact, I might actually prefer Kuijken here.

Fey's horns are superb so the disc with 31 and the concertos is very appealing (as is No.5 on the early symphonies volume).

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on December 09, 2013, 11:55:16 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 09, 2013, 06:36:15 AM
it didn't take a lot of discipline to learn the main numbering system, and then everyone knows what is what. :)

That's all very well for the groups of works that HAVE a 'main numbering system'. Meanwhile in the lands of piano trio and keyboard sonata...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 09, 2013, 12:26:42 PM

Quote from: orfeo on December 09, 2013, 11:55:16 AM
That's all very well for the groups of works that HAVE a 'main numbering system'. Meanwhile in the lands of piano trio and keyboard sonata...

No, as much as we hate it, Hoboken is the de facto standard, everything else is pushed to the rear, despite probably being superior in many ways. You can know keyboard sonata #29 all day long, but even given the fact that Landon 29 is probably more accurate, if you want a recording of it, or the sheet music, you are going to need to know that it is Hob 16:45, no matter how little sense that makes. Even if it were Haydn's 'Moonlight Sonata'! That's all I'm saying. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on December 09, 2013, 05:08:05 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 09, 2013, 12:26:42 PM
No, as much as we hate it, Hoboken is the de facto standard, everything else is pushed to the rear, despite probably being superior in many ways. You can know keyboard sonata #29 all day long, but even given the fact that Landon 29 is probably more accurate, if you want a recording of it, or the sheet music, you are going to need to know that it is Hob 16:45, no matter how little sense that makes. Even if it were Haydn's 'Moonlight Sonata'! That's all I'm saying. :)

8)

Well no, the whole reason the conversation even came up is because lots of recordings ignore the Hoboken numbering and go with Landon numbering instead.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: GuybrushThreepwood on December 09, 2013, 05:13:05 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 04, 2013, 05:08:34 PM
I have both of their disks and am very fond of them. I like their style. I particularly enjoy the disk you pictured. The Op 74 #1 is as good as it gets. :)

8)

Gurn, would you recommend the vol.2 with closed eyes? I have not been able to find any review, and since it is a SACD I find it a little too pricey.

Regards.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 09, 2013, 05:47:52 PM

Quote from: GuybrushThreepwood on December 09, 2013, 05:13:05 PM
Gurn, would you recommend the vol.2 with closed eyes? I have not been able to find any review, and since it is a SACD I find it a little too pricey.

Regards.

Well, you're right, it IS a bit pricey. I'm not much of a recommender, it goes against my nature really, but I don't mind saying what I like, and I like these. If you are of a mind, Amazon have the MP3's and you could download one for ~$4US and give it a try. Especially good way to use up those bonus MP3 credits that Amazon give you for buying something and which usually expire before you get a chance to use them. :) Op 64 #6 is very nice.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 10, 2013, 04:21:56 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 09, 2013, 05:47:52 PM
. . . I'm not much of a recommender, it goes against my nature really, but I don't mind saying what I like, and I like these.

I like this.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: GuybrushThreepwood on December 10, 2013, 11:59:16 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 10, 2013, 04:21:56 AM
I like this.

I was both moved and convinced by that statement: added to the wish list.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on December 11, 2013, 10:51:28 AM

Naxos has changed up the performers in their Haydn trios series.

(http://ecstatic.textalk.se/shop/thumbnails/shop/17115/art15/h6435/4826435-origpic-3cb8b5.jpg_0_0_100_100_250_250_0.jpg)

Simon Crawford-Phillips is the same pianist who recorded previous volumes with the Kungsbacka Trio. Matthew Truscott has been concertmaster of the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment, King's Consort, and English Concert. Richard Lester is in the Florestan Trio and London Haydn Quartet.

The booklet says, "Whilst the Bartolozzi Trio nods respectfully to the now considerable knowledge of period practice its concern is focused more on the rhetoric of the music than any specific performance paradigm." Here are sound samples of each track. (http://www.eclassical.com/en/article.php?id=17116&art=4826435) It sounds like HIP-aware performances on modern instruments.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on December 11, 2013, 09:23:40 PM

Quote from: Brian on December 11, 2013, 10:51:28 AM
Simon Crawford-Phillips is the same pianist who recorded previous volumes with the Kungsbacka Trio. Matthew Truscott has been concertmaster of the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment, King's Consort, and English Concert. Richard Lester is in the Florestan Trio and London Haydn Quartet.

Lester also played in Hausmusik, along with some big names in the PI scene.

There's a video of one movement on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pUYrr2gRc8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pUYrr2gRc8)

I'm more inclined to a fortepiano for Haydn (and the "paradigm" quip, presumably written by the Naxos marketing department, does nothing to win me over) but this sounds pretty good.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Roberto on December 12, 2013, 10:50:12 PM

Finally I bought Hogwood Symphonies box. (I hope it will arrive before Christmas...)
Actually it doesn't contain all London symphonies but I was impressed by it and I think it will be the base of my Haydn symphony collection.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 13, 2013, 04:38:57 PM

Quote from: GuybrushThreepwood on December 10, 2013, 11:59:16 AM
I was both moved and convinced by that statement: added to the wish list.

Thank you for reminding me of those disks; I am on my third listening of the pair in recent days, being ill at home provides me a perfect excuse for being Haydnish! :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnAmsterdam4tetcover1_zpsa6a2e3eb.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnAmsterdam4tetcover2_zps13ed5301.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on December 13, 2013, 04:51:04 PM

Well in that case (and in the spirit of St. Augustine)...get well soon, but not too soon!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 13, 2013, 04:51:53 PM

Quote from: Roberto on December 12, 2013, 10:50:12 PM
Finally I bought Hogwood Symphonies box. (I hope it will arrive before Christmas...)
Actually it doesn't contain all London symphonies but I was impressed by it and I think it will be the base of my Haydn symphony collection.

Excellent choice, Roberto!

No, nor does it contain any of the Paris symphonies either. It just has the four 'London's' that they released even before they began the box sets project. They are excellent though, and if not still being produced, they are at least readily available, and they should be! :)

I Hope you get it before Christmas too. That'd be great!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 13, 2013, 04:53:31 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 13, 2013, 04:51:04 PM
Well in that case (and in the spirit of St. Augustine)...get well soon, but not too soon!

Thank you, sir. Actually somewhat better already, having spent the morning with my lovely lady doctor. The three hypos she gave me worked wonders! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on December 13, 2013, 09:42:08 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 13, 2013, 04:38:57 PM
being ill at home provides me a perfect excuse for being Haydnish! :)

I suspect being recovered will also be a good excuse for listening to Haydn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 14, 2013, 04:40:43 AM

No excuse needed. Head for da Haus!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 14, 2013, 06:02:11 AM

Quote from: Pat B on December 13, 2013, 09:42:08 PM
I suspect being recovered will also be a good excuse for listening to Haydn.

:)

Yes, I have an entire list, actually, and both illness and recovery have a prominent place. A composer for all seasons.... 0:)

8)

Quote from: karlhenning on December 14, 2013, 04:40:43 AM
No excuse needed. Head for da Haus!

And there's that. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on December 14, 2013, 01:32:06 PM

This week, another three discs of 'first listens' from the wonderful Dennis Russell Davies and Stuttgart Chamber Orchestra set! :)

Disc 6

Symphony No. 8 in G major 'Le Soir' Those magnificent strings!! Beautiful solo violin and solo cello passages in the II. Andante; and great solo violone (double bass) passages in the III. Menuetto & Trio. Definitely an immediate top 5/10 of the symphonies I've listened to thus far. :)

Symphony No. 36 in E flat major

Symphony No. 33 in C major

Symphony No. 9 in C major

No stand out impressions to make regarding S# 36, 33 and 9. Was a bit distracted, so these obviously didn't get my full, deserving attention. Will need some re-listens to have a better idea.

Disc 10

Symphony No. 24 in D major - Superb Adagio II. mvt, with those lovely solo flute passages. And a terrific, rousing finale!

Symphony No. 30 in C major 'Alleluja' OK....honestly didn't think much of this one, perhaps my least enjoyed Haydn symphony to date (and I did pay attention) :D Nothing stands out, but hopefully (and undoubtedly) more of a favourable impression to be made with multiple listens.

Symphony No. 31 in D major 'Mit Dem Hornsignal' Top 5, no doubt about it!! Fantastic horns in that opening movement....and throughout. What a gorgeous and delicate solo violin serenade to open the Adagio II. mvt, and then the entrance of the horns. Gorgeous Adagio movement, a favourite! However, it is perhaps the final mvt. that is my absolute favourite of this symphony. Fantastic variations movement, especially the variation that includes the violone (double bass), and then the presto coda variation to cap it all off. It is a *pounds the table* symphony, by any composer. :)

Disc 30

Symphony No. 88 in G major Terrific opening movement! Very exquisite, beautiful Largo II. mvt, with those stormy fortissimo passages.

Symphony No. 89 in F major Another fantastic opening movement w/ varied moods. A lot of punch and drive in this one, starkly contrasted by the several lovely solo woodwind passages.

Symphony No. 90 in C major This one has a lovely, yet lively III. Menuet & Trio, capped off with a great final movement that is vivacious, and a thrilling roller coaster ride! :)

Only 15 more discs to go (5 for Jan/2014, 5 for Feb/2014 and then 5 for Mar/2014). Looking forward to what is up ahead, and also looking forward to revisiting some of my favourites (and surely more to come in these final 15 discs). :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on December 14, 2013, 01:41:52 PM

I enjoy reading your listening notes, Ray. Thank you for sharing them. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on December 14, 2013, 01:45:04 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 14, 2013, 01:41:52 PM
I enjoy reading your listening notes, Ray. Thank you for sharing them. :)

Thank you, Greg. :) Yes, my listening notes certainly put any musicologist to shame!! jejeje!! :laugh: ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 14, 2013, 02:05:10 PM

Ray, I don't know that there is a disappointing choice available when you do what you do, so it is hard to come up with new ways to say 'great choices!'. :D

I see that #8 had the same effect on you as it has had on everyone else who has heard it. It's a peach, for sure. #24, 31, and all of Disk 30, but especially #88, one of my top 5, are a great time to have for the listener. Like Greg, I greatly enjoy reading your reactions to these as you discover them. :)

8)

Title: Re: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 14, 2013, 02:13:14 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on December 14, 2013, 01:41:52 PM
I enjoy reading your listening notes, Ray. Thank you for sharing them. :)

+1

And I am lagging behind in listening to both DRD & Hogwood....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 15, 2013, 05:29:10 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on December 14, 2013, 01:32:06 PM
Symphony No. 30 in C major 'Alleluja' OK....honestly didn't think much of this one, perhaps my least enjoyed Haydn symphony to date (and I did pay attention) :D Nothing stands out, but hopefully (and undoubtedly) more of a favourable impression to be made with multiple listens.

Ah, the "do-re-mi" symphony 8) One of my favorites. Do give it another chance, Nut. In the first movement the Gregorian chant melody combined with the celebratory use of trumpets and drums is, I think, thrilling; the concertante flute passages in the slow movement beautiful; the strange, mysterious, unprepared for outburst at the end of the Trio shocking (where did that come from? :o ). Harnoncourt is my favorite version. The tempos are perfect in each movement and, unlike Hogwood, he includes the trumpets and timps. Fischer is lightweight; very disappointing.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 15, 2013, 05:37:00 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 15, 2013, 05:29:10 AM
Ah, the "do-re-mi" symphony 8) One of my favorites. Do give it another chance, Nut. In the first movement the Gregorian chant melody combined with the celebratory use of trumpets and drums is, I think, thrilling; the concertante flute passages in the slow movement beautiful; the strange, mysterious, unprepared for outburst at the end of the Trio shocking (where did that come from? :o ). Harnoncourt is my favorite version. The tempos are perfect in each movement and, unlike Hogwood, he includes the trumpets and timps. Fischer is too lightweight; very disappointing.

Sarge

Roger that, Sarge. The Harnoncourt is my favorite too.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHarnoncourt305364cover_zpsfed2df1b.jpg)

I think that's one of the huge attractions for me in Haydn's works; you never know what's going to happen next. Where did that come from being the question of the day. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 15, 2013, 06:10:29 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 15, 2013, 05:37:00 AM
I think that's one of the huge attractions for me in Haydn's works; you never know what's going to happen next.

To quote Karl, Aye.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on December 15, 2013, 03:41:55 PM

Well, Haydn Hausers, it was fun while it lasted. :-\ Over two pages of posting today in the Havergal Brian thread. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 15, 2013, 04:12:27 PM

Quote from: ChamberNut on December 15, 2013, 03:41:55 PM
Well, Haydn Hausers, it was fun while it lasted. :-\ Over two pages of posting today in the Havergal Brian thread. ;D

Yes, even I posted there! With a lead of over 1900 posts, it would take more than a brisk day to close the gap! :)

Are you still working on that set from yesterday? It seemed you had one disk to listen over again, IIRC... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on December 15, 2013, 04:16:33 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 15, 2013, 04:12:27 PM
Yes, even I posted there! With a lead of over 1900 posts, it would take more than a brisk day to close the gap! :)

Are you still working on that set from yesterday? It seemed you had one disk to listen over again, IIRC... :)

8)

It is true, but I am currently neck deep in ballet music! :D I do promise to revisit/relisten to those 3 symphonies again (S#9, 33 and 36) :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 15, 2013, 04:22:07 PM

Quote from: ChamberNut on December 15, 2013, 04:16:33 PM
It is true, but I am currently neck deep in ballet music! :D I do promise to revisit/relisten to those 3 symphonies again (S#9, 33 and 36) :)

Ah, ballet music. Hard not to like that! I usually put that off as long as I can because it is like eating popcorn for me. :)

All three of those have points of interest, they will reward you, they promise. ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on December 15, 2013, 04:44:03 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 15, 2013, 04:22:07 PM
Ah, ballet music. Hard not to like that! I usually put that off as long as I can because it is like eating popcorn for me. :)

A great analogy. :) I've been gorging on buttered popcorn and sugar plums a lot this month. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 15, 2013, 04:50:15 PM

Quote from: ChamberNut on December 15, 2013, 04:44:03 PM
A great analogy. :) I've been gorging on buttered popcorn and sugar plums a lot this month. :D

Which reminds me, next week I need to dig out the MacKerras Nutcracker in time for Christmas. It's a tradition, you know. Just gotta avoid those Sleeping Beauty and Swan Lake disks while digging through the Tchaikovsky section. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on December 15, 2013, 04:53:37 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 15, 2013, 04:50:15 PM
Which reminds me, next week I need to dig out the MacKerras Nutcracker in time for Christmas. It's a tradition, you know. Just gotta avoid those Sleeping Beauty and Swan Lake disks while digging through the Tchaikovsky section. :D

8)

I've been gorging on all three, Gurn.

Speaking of MacKerras, I'll be spinning Beethoven's The Creatures of Prometheus, a fantastic work! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 15, 2013, 04:56:49 PM

Quote from: ChamberNut on December 15, 2013, 04:53:37 PM
I've been gorging on all three, Gurn.

Speaking of MacKerras, I'll be spinning Beethoven's The Creatures of Prometheus, a fantastic work! :)

Indeed it is, Ray. And Mac's version of it is the best one I have, it is very satisfactory. Well, that's almost ballet, so you are weaning yourself away gradually. Always the best way in these cases. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Roberto on December 15, 2013, 11:27:22 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 15, 2013, 04:50:15 PM
Which reminds me, next week I need to dig out the MacKerras Nutcracker in time for Christmas. It's a tradition, you know.

Last Christmas I've listened to the Wozzeck. :-[

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Roberto on December 16, 2013, 01:13:09 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 15, 2013, 05:29:10 AM
The tempos are perfect in each movement and, unlike Hogwood, he includes the trumpets and timps.

I think the only drawback of the Hogwood set is that he uses the minimal orchestration in all symphonies for the shake of historical fidelity.

Title: Re: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 16, 2013, 03:16:00 AM

Quote from: Roberto on December 16, 2013, 01:13:09 AM
I think the only drawback of the Hogwood set is that he uses the minimal orchestration in all symphonies for the shake of historical fidelity.

Well, but since there are many solo passages, at least one argument for that historical fidelity is, balance.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 16, 2013, 04:35:47 AM

Quote from: Roberto on December 16, 2013, 01:13:09 AM
I think the only drawback of the Hogwood set is that he uses the minimal orchestration in all symphonies for the shake of historical fidelity.

Well, there are two or three ways to look at what you are saying, Roberto. First, as Karl notes, there is the historical fidelity issue. It is one of those things that sounds 'off' to our ears because we are used to hearing much more texture, even in music that didn't originally have it.

But I don't think that is what you are getting at, nor is Sarge. The trumpets & timpani in most of these earlier symphonies were almost never part of the original for the simple reason that Haydn didn't have any of those instruments to play with. On special occasions the Prince would bring in some guys from the cathedral (I believe in Pressburg), or like when the Empress came to visit he imported some from Vienna. In most cases where there are parts added, they were done by someone else as needed. Often they were fairly well done too, although the further removed in time, the less authentic they sound. Haydn himself did go back and add in some himself (some are in his handwriting, or the handwriting of known associates).

So having or not having the parts included in a performance requires some judgments to be made. On all of the festive C major works, I am very sure that he would have wanted them. On some others, maybe not. :)

8)

Title: Re: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on December 16, 2013, 07:37:17 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 16, 2013, 03:16:00 AM
Well, but since there are many solo passages, at least one argument for that historical fidelity is, balance.

Personally, I always thought that the best argument for historical fidelity was historical fidelity....

But when it comes to the presence of trumps and timps* in the symphonies, historical fidelity is never clear cut. Which is to be expected, since it usually is never clear cut when you get down to details...

*trumps and timps....perhaps we could come up with a card game of that name?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 16, 2013, 07:40:47 AM

That's why I pointed to balance! :)

Title: Re: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 16, 2013, 07:50:31 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 16, 2013, 07:37:17 AM
Personally, I always thought that the best argument for historical fidelity was historical fidelity....

But when it comes to the presence of trumps and timps* in the symphonies, historical fidelity is never clear cut. Which is to be expected, since it usually is never clear cut when you get down to details...

Which seems like a difficult concept for a lot of people to deal with. Not just modernistas who were brought up with scores written in stone, but also HIPpies who want to turn around and write their interpretations in stone too. Then, more than now probably, every performance was unique for oh-so-many reasons (shit, the cook is sick. Now who will play second oboe?). Flexibility is the name of the game! :)

Quote from: karlhenning on December 16, 2013, 07:40:47 AM
That's why I pointed to balance! :)

And rightly so. For example, when Haydn had a flute part that he wanted, he didn't just go hire a flutist, he gave the second oboe a long rest and had him play the flute instead. That way balance was preserved (see Hob 24 for example). Balance is a defining feature of classicism, both sonically and structurally. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 16, 2013, 07:54:11 AM

Color me modernista, but I don't think scores are etched in stone . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 16, 2013, 07:58:35 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 16, 2013, 07:54:11 AM
Color me modernista, but I don't think scores are etched in stone . . . .

No, I'm talking about people brought up with the post-Romantic notion that the composer's original notes and dynamics etc. are as handed down to Moses and not to be messed with. pre-1800 at least, if you didn't have a violone that day and you stuck a bassoon and cembalo in its place, no one thought twice about it. Now it would cause a minor furor! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 16, 2013, 08:03:11 AM

Check . . . and like any entrenched notion, it's not even at this stage completely disentrenched.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 16, 2013, 08:05:48 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 16, 2013, 08:03:11 AM
Check . . . and like any entrenched notion, it's not even at this stage completely disentrenched.

No, there are factions.... ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 16, 2013, 08:40:52 AM

Sometimes, especially my own . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on December 16, 2013, 06:54:35 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 16, 2013, 08:03:11 AM
Check . . . and like any entrenched notion, it's not even at this stage completely disentrenched.

My current impression is that among musicians, there are a few combative personalities, but a live-and-let-live ethos seems to be the norm nowadays.

Listeners, though, may latch on to one particular performance style, often that of whatever happened to be the first record they had, and everything else is WRONG. (Not so much on gmg, thankfully.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on December 21, 2013, 06:18:14 AM

Re-listen to Symphony No. 36, 33 and 9 from the wonderful Dennis Russell Davies and Stuttgart Chamber Orchestra set! :)

Disc 6

Symphony No. 36 in E flat major Fantastic, frenetic opening mvt. The II. Adagio has a lovely solo violin and solo cello dialogue. The feel of this symphony has a quasi "heroic" feel to it.

Symphony No. 33 in C major I. Wonderful strings, especially the high ascending strings. II. Andante - Lovely, pleading, yearning strings. So well played. A gorgeous mvt. III. Love the galavanting trio in this Menuet! IV. An emphatic joy ride of a finale!

Symphony No. 9 in C major I. Great horn and woodwind calls to the emphatic fortissimo strings. Some voracious string playing, descending and ascending. II. Serene - love the woodwinds in this one and how they blend and intertwine with the harpsichord and strings! III. Great, prominent solo oboe that really stands out in this finale!

So yes, obviously the first time around, I was paying much attention, as these three have proven to be pretty damn great!! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 21, 2013, 06:27:19 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on December 21, 2013, 06:18:14 AM
Re-listen to Symphony No. 36, 33 and 9 from the wonderful Dennis Russell Davies and Stuttgart Chamber Orchestra set! :)

Disc 6

Symphony No. 36 in E flat major Fantastic, frenetic opening mvt. The II. Adagio has a lovely solo violin and solo cello dialogue. The feel of this symphony has a quasi "heroic" feel to it.

Symphony No. 33 in C major I. Wonderful strings, especially the high ascending strings. II. Andante - Lovely, pleading, yearning strings. So well played. A gorgeous mvt. III. Love the galavanting trio in this Menuet! IV. An emphatic joy ride of a finale!

Symphony No. 9 in C major I. Great horn and woodwind calls to the emphatic fortissimo strings. Some voracious string playing, descending and ascending. II. Serene - love the woodwinds in this one and how they blend and intertwine with the harpsichord and strings! III. Great, prominent solo oboe that really stands out in this finale!

So yes, obviously the first time around, I was paying much attention, as these three have proven to be pretty damn great!! :)

Great, Ray! I'm glad you didn't miss out on these. #9 was the tipoff, I said to myself 'Ray must not have been feeling well there (or Davies really sucked!)'. :)

If you look at the overall picture of the things that have attracted your ears' attention so far, notice that it is a great variety of different licks on different instruments. That isn't just about Haydn writing to his strengths (which he did, of course) but also about what a great orchestra he had put together there. If he mentally envisioned an obbligato oboe part like in the finale of #9, he knew he could write whatever he wanted to and his oboist would play it just so. What a luxury that must have been for him! And what a benefit is still accruing to us! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on December 21, 2013, 06:39:00 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 21, 2013, 06:27:19 AM
Great, Ray! I'm glad you didn't miss out on these. #9 was the tipoff, I said to myself 'Ray must not have been feeling well there (or Davies really sucked!)'. :)

If you look at the overall picture of the things that have attracted your ears' attention so far, notice that it is a great variety of different licks on different instruments. That isn't just about Haydn writing to his strengths (which he did, of course) but also about what a great orchestra he had put together there. If he mentally envisioned an obbligato oboe part like in the finale of #9, he knew he could write whatever he wanted to and his oboist would play it just so. What a luxury that must have been for him! And what a benefit is still accruing to us! :)

8)

Great points there, Gurn. I agree with you. Haydn did have that luxury, which not too many composers (and certainly not many during his lifetime), of access to a great orchestra, and great solo instrumental musicians. :)

Title: Re: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Roberto on December 21, 2013, 07:57:04 AM

I knew about the musical background of Haydn's time and actually I prefer the "back to the original" approach too. I love the sound of the timpani but it is just my personal taste.

Good news is that the Hogwood Symphonies box arrived yesterday and I will be at home entire next week so I have time to discover it. I listened to the 1st, 60th, 94th and 104th right now on my stereo. I think this box was good choice. $:) I was overwhelmed by the power and beauty of the 94th and 104th, the 1st was beautiful and 60th was gorgeous and very surprising. All movements was ;D but the last movement was :laugh:.

Sound of the orchestra is great and I think it will be a reference Haydn symphonies box for me. Shame on you Decca that you never finished this project and issue a valuable set with so weak booklet. >:(

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 16, 2013, 07:50:31 AM
Then, more than now probably, every performance was unique for oh-so-many reasons (shit, the cook is sick. Now who will play second oboe?). Flexibility is the name of the game! :)

Yes but we have a device what didn't exist then: recording.

Title: Re: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 21, 2013, 08:12:31 AM

Quote from: Roberto on December 21, 2013, 07:57:04 AM
I knew about the musical background of Haydn's time and actually I prefer the "back to the original" approach too. I love the sound of the timpani but it is just my personal taste.

Good news is that the Hogwood Symphonies box arrived yesterday and I will be at home entire next week so I have time to discover it. I listened to the 1st, 60th, 94th and 104th right now on my stereo. I think this box was good choice. $:) I was overwhelmed by the power and beauty of the 94th and 104th, the 1st was beautiful and 60th was gorgeous and very surprising. All movements was ;D but the last movement was :laugh:.

Sound of the orchestra is great and I think it will be a reference Haydn symphonies box for me. Shame on you Decca that you never finished this project and issue a valuable set with so weak booklet. >:(
Yes but we have a device what didn't exist then: recording.

Roberto,
I am sure that you will find it to be exactly the reference set you are anticipating it to be. I certainly do. And I totally agree with you about Decca. I wasn't aware that their booklet was inferior, although I should have anticipated it. In the original boxes, each volume has a comprehensive booklet by noted Haydnisto James Webster and notes also by Hogwood. It would have been far too accommodating for them to have condensed the material into one nice booklet for the new product... :-\

Yes, recording. Well, the great (and not so great) performances are written in stone that way, for sure. My comment was only concerning real times, and how no two performances were ever the same. We can still take some of that forward when we hear a different take on things that we didn't expect. This is why I like to have so many period instrument recordings of the same works; they each sound authentic, but in their own way, not like each other does. It is just a personal peculiarity of mine. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 21, 2013, 10:43:36 AM

I have finally been emerging from my cocoon of ill-health, enough so that I felt able to publish a blog post today! I hope you will have time to check it out and see if it makes you want to listen 'off the beaten path' for a little while. :)

1764 – The Music part 4 – Doesn't have to be a symphony (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2013/12/1764-the-music-part-4-doesnt-have-to-be-a-symphony.html)

Thanks for your interest. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 21, 2013, 12:21:35 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 21, 2013, 10:43:36 AM
I have finally been emerging from my cocoon of ill-health,

Get well soon! You know the best medication - Haydn in the morning, Haydn in the afternoon, Hadydn in the evening, and Haydn everytime in between! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 21, 2013, 12:45:42 PM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 21, 2013, 12:21:35 PM
Get well soon! You know the best medication - Haydn in the morning, Haydn in the afternoon, Hadydn in the evening, and Haydn everytime in between! :)

Thanks, Neal. If that 'full immersion Haydn therapy' works, you shall share the credit in The Lancet. :)

8)

Title: Re: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on December 22, 2013, 04:21:34 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 21, 2013, 08:12:31 AM
I wasn't aware that their booklet was inferior, although I should have anticipated it. In the original boxes, each volume has a comprehensive booklet by noted Haydnisto James Webster and notes also by Hogwood. It would have been far too accommodating for them to have condensed the material into one nice booklet for the new product... :-\

It's this kind of thing that gives me the urge to seek out the original boxes instead. Plus, of course, slightly less overwhelming if the music arrives at my house in smaller chunks!

Title: Re: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2013, 04:30:32 PM

Quote from: orfeo on December 22, 2013, 04:21:34 PM
It's this kind of thing that gives me the urge to seek out the original boxes instead. Plus, of course, slightly less overwhelming if the music arrives at my house in smaller chunks!

When I bought my boxes, I had no idea there was a box set in the offing. However, I was still well behind the curve in terms of being OOP, since they were! I was able to get all 10 boxes over a period of 6-8 months, a few of them still factory sealed, for ~$250 USD. Spread over that amount of time, it wasn't too big a chunk to hurt me, and I was delighted to have the entire. One purchase involved winning an eBay auction for 5 boxes, 'like new', for $100. One may not be that fortunate, but patience and persistence can win the day.

Just sayin', it is a do-able thing. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on December 22, 2013, 05:22:04 PM

Oh, I know its doable. I'm still on my quest to get the first 40 Suzuki Bach cantatas in boxes of 10...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2013, 05:27:25 PM

Quote from: orfeo on December 22, 2013, 05:22:04 PM
Oh, I know its doable. I'm still on my quest to get the first 40 Suzuki Bach cantatas in boxes of 10...

:D Good luck with that. The thrill of the hunt definitely makes it worth the effort!

The only thing that takes some of the enjoyment away is when I look for a couple of years or even longer, finally find my quarry and make a killer deal on it, then a month later it is re-released for a few dollars and includes the original booklet and all! That's just wrong, :(

8)

Title: Re: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Roberto on December 23, 2013, 02:01:14 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 21, 2013, 08:12:31 AM
And I totally agree with you about Decca. I wasn't aware that their booklet was inferior, although I should have anticipated it. In the original boxes, each volume has a comprehensive booklet by noted Haydnisto James Webster and notes also by Hogwood. It would have been far too accommodating for them to have condensed the material into one nice booklet for the new product... :-\

In this complete box even the cases have misprints... I realized it yesterday when I added this box to my CD database. Sometimes case title said it is a major scale symphony but in fact it is a minor scale symphony...

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 21, 2013, 08:12:31 AM
Yes, recording. Well, the great (and not so great) performances are written in stone that way, for sure. My comment was only concerning real times, and how no two performances were ever the same. We can still take some of that forward when we hear a different take on things that we didn't expect. This is why I like to have so many period instrument recordings of the same works; they each sound authentic, but in their own way, not like each other does. It is just a personal peculiarity of mine. :)

I think you and karlhenning are right about balance. I listened to other symphonies yesterday and today and I think these are perfect in this way of performing and orchestration.

Quote from: orfeo
It's this kind of thing that gives me the urge to seek out the original boxes instead. Plus, of course, slightly less overwhelming if the music arrives at my house in smaller chunks!

I prefer original boxes too but empty space for new CDs is decreasing in my room. :(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 26, 2013, 06:29:14 PM

Hopefully, a prod to the listener. Two outstanding symphonies for 1765, here is a short discussion with some features to listen for. Hope you enjoy these!

Alleluia and Hornsignal (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2013/12/1765-the-music-part-1-welcome-back-horns.html)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on December 26, 2013, 06:34:42 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 26, 2013, 06:29:14 PM
Hopefully, a prod to the listener. Two outstanding symphonies for 1765, here is a short discussion with some features to listen for. Hope you enjoy these!

Alleluia and Hornsignal (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2013/12/1765-the-music-part-1-welcome-back-horns.html)

8)

Hmmm, I will have to read this. Thanks, Gurn. The Hornsignal Symphony had an immediate and highly positive 'first listen' impact on me. As I mentioned, to date, the Alleluia Symphony is the sole Haydn symphony, to date, that did not really make an impression. Re-listens, and perhaps reading the discussion, will turn this around!! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 27, 2013, 04:23:18 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on December 26, 2013, 06:34:42 PM
Hmmm, I will have to read this. Thanks, Gurn. The Hornsignal Symphony had an immediate and highly positive 'first listen' impact on me. As I mentioned, to date, the Alleluia Symphony is the sole Haydn symphony, to date, that did not really make an impression. Re-listens, and perhaps reading the discussion, will turn this around!! ;D

Thanks, Ray. I hope you enjoyed the discussion, but even more so, I hope the Alleluia took a better hold on you this time around. I would guess that your recording uses the trumpets as well as the horns, he seems to be pretty true to the brass parts. That is all good. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 27, 2013, 04:33:37 AM

Just for a quick check-in ... I've listened to the odd symphony or two each day this week, as part of luxuriating in the novelty of two days completely free.

Not much to add at the moment, perhaps more in a while....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 27, 2013, 06:43:00 AM

Naturally, given Ray's (comparative, only comparative) coolness to the Alleluja, I should like to revisit it . . . and the new nannydom is an obstacle. (As it has been generally, slowing my visits to da Haus.) I keep the DRD cube by my night-table . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on December 27, 2013, 06:57:05 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 27, 2013, 06:43:00 AM
Naturally, given Ray's (comparative, only comparative) coolness to the Alleluja, I should like to revisit it . . . and the new nannydom is an obstacle. (As it has been generally, slowing my visits to da Haus.) I keep the DRD cube by my night-table . . . .

:D +1

May the cube be with you!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 27, 2013, 06:58:27 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 27, 2013, 06:43:00 AM
Naturally, given Ray's (comparative, only comparative) coolness to the Alleluja, I should like to revisit it . . . and the new nannydom is an obstacle. (As it has been generally, slowing my visits to da Haus.) I keep the DRD cube by my night-table . . . .

Curious your reaction to it, Karl. As you see in my essay, my preference is Harnoncourt which is ass-kickin', but I need to check out Hogwood, as I simply don't remember it. If DRD plays it hot, it should be good too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 27, 2013, 07:09:30 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 27, 2013, 06:58:27 AM
Curious your reaction to it, Karl. As you see in my essay, my preference is Harnoncourt which is ass-kickin'[...]If DRD plays it hot, it should be good too. :)

When Nut first remarked on his disappointment with 30, I wondered if it had something to do with DRD...perhaps one of his lesser efforts? Unfortunately I couldn't find even short clips online to confirm or refute that suspicion. Ref Harnoncourt's Alleluja: I can't imagine anyone being disappointed with the symphony the way he tackles it 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 27, 2013, 07:11:35 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 27, 2013, 07:09:30 AM
When Nut first remarked on his disappointment with 30, I wondered if it had something to do with DRD...perhaps one of his lesser efforts? Unfortunately I couldn't find even short clips online to confirm or refute that suspicion. Ref Harnoncourt's Alleluja: I can't imagine anyone being disappointed with the symphony the way he tackles it 8)

Sarge

Alleluia, amen! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 27, 2013, 07:14:55 AM

Gorm, just had a post eaten up. Shaking it off . . . .

Gurn, I've got DRD/Stuttgarters in a few modernish works as well as the "Papa" symphony cube, including:

[asin]B000024J2W[/asin]

[asin]B0006Z1ZE4[/asin]

So, clarity and energy are the hallmarks. Of course, I've not completely listened to the Hogwood set yet, either. Between the two, I am the proverbial kid in the musical candy shop . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Roberto on December 27, 2013, 08:16:01 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 26, 2013, 06:29:14 PM
Hopefully, a prod to the listener. Two outstanding symphonies for 1765, here is a short discussion with some features to listen for. Hope you enjoy these!
Alleluia and Hornsignal (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2013/12/1765-the-music-part-1-welcome-back-horns.html)

I've read it. Great article, thank you! I had to listen to the 30th and 31st because of it. :) (With Hogwood of course.)
30th: beautiful and lively first movement (with darkness sometimes)! It was a joy to hear. Second movement was great too with unexpected ending. Maybe the 3rd movement was less successful but I liked it too.
31st: it was one of my first Haydn experience years ago with a Hungarian chamber orchestra on Hungaroton CD. (Old romantic performance.) I didn't know it uses 4 horns! :o Hogwood conducts it lively also. Balance is optimal, solo playing is great. 2nd movement was autumnal like a Vivaldi season.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 27, 2013, 08:22:49 AM

Quote from: Roberto on December 27, 2013, 08:16:01 AM
I've read it. Great article, thank you! I had to listen to the 30th and 31st because of it. :) (With Hogwood of course.)
30th: beautiful and lively first movement (with darkness sometimes)! It was a joy to hear. Second movement was great too with unexpected ending. Maybe the 3rd movement was less successful but I liked it too.
31st: it was one of my first Haydn experience years ago with a Hungarian chamber orchestra on Hungaroton CD. (Old romantic performance.) I didn't know it uses 4 horns! :o Hogwood conducts it lively also. Balance is optimal, solo playing is great. 2nd movement was autumnal like a Vivaldi season.

Splendid! And a reminder for me to listen to the Hogwood again. I have only Hogwood and Goodman for many early works, and so when I get others I tend to go with them and forget all what Hogwood sounded like :o . I think for both of these works, lively is the way to go. Laying back and trying to sneak up n them is just going to disappoint. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Roberto on December 27, 2013, 09:20:35 AM

There was a strange sounding instrument in the last movement of the 31th. Is there a double bass solo (variation) in it?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 27, 2013, 09:37:01 AM

Quote from: Roberto on December 27, 2013, 09:20:35 AM
There was a strange sounding instrument in the last movement of the 31th. Is there a double bass solo (variation) in it?

Yes, almost positive. There is one in #72, and I think in #31 too. Haydn was very fond of his violoneist, he even wrote him a (sadly lost) concerto! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 27, 2013, 09:43:38 AM

You want to be careful around bassists, referring to their ax as a strange-sounding instrument ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 27, 2013, 05:34:20 PM

At last!

Hogwood is sprightlier with the Alleluja than DRD; I do like the DRD as well, but the Stuttgarters are notably smoother with the piece.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 27, 2013, 05:43:14 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 27, 2013, 05:34:20 PM
At last!

Hogwood is sprightlier with the Alleluja than DRD; I do like the DRD as well, but the Stuttgarters are notably smoother with the piece.

Ah, interesting, Karl. I have been otherwise occupied and unable to listen to the Hogwood yet, but I think there are many occasions, especially in Haydn, when smoother is not necessarily better. Perhaps this is another of them? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 27, 2013, 05:46:50 PM

Could be; the Hogwood n^o. 30 does seem to me more immediately likeable. I don't think I am waffling, in liking the DRD, too . . . .

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on December 27, 2013, 05:47:53 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 27, 2013, 05:43:14 PM
Ah, interesting, Karl. I have been otherwise occupied and unable to listen to the Hogwood yet, but I think there are many occasions, especially in Haydn, when smoother is not necessarily better. Perhaps this is another of them? :)

8)

Good point, Gurn. Some people prefer smooth peanut butter, while other prefer crunchy. Then again, some are deathly allergic to both. :D

Example for me:

Mahler - I like really smooth

Bruckner - I enjoy more of a street brawl, spitting bloody chiclets gritty kind of approach

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 27, 2013, 05:53:16 PM

Quote from: ChamberNut on December 27, 2013, 05:47:53 PM
Good point, Gurn. Some people prefer smooth peanut butter, while other prefer crunchy. Then again, some are deathly allergic to both. :D

Example for me:

Mahler - I like really smooth

Bruckner - I enjoy more of a street brawl, spitting bloody chiclets gritty kind of approach

This is certainly a discussion that has come up before, more to the point of period instruments vs modern ones. But also in the Haydn string quartets where there is a clear division in taste between the smooths and the chunkys. My own opinion is that going smooth sort of takes out Haydn's personality from the equation. Perhaps I am injecting my OWN personality into it at this point, but for my taste, Haydn is chunky, Mozart is smooth. :)

Quote from: karlhenning on December 27, 2013, 05:46:50 PM
Could be; the Hogwood n^o. 30 does seem to me more immediately likeable. I don't think I am waffling, in liking the DRD, too . . . .

I don't think you're waffling. Well played is well played, what's not to like? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on December 27, 2013, 05:57:34 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 27, 2013, 05:53:16 PM
This is certainly a discussion that has come up before, more to the point of period instruments vs modern ones. But also in the Haydn string quartets where there is a clear division in taste between the smooths and the chunkys. My own opinion is that going smooth sort of takes out Haydn's personality from the equation. Perhaps I am injecting my OWN personality into it at this point, but for my taste, Haydn is chunky, Mozart is smooth. :)

I don't think you're waffling. Well played is well played, what's not to like? :)

8)

I probably feel similarly (especially vis a vis Mozart and Haydn string quartets). Smooth Wolfie, and Chunky Papa J. ;D

Great! Now I have a craving for homemade waffles with strawberries, and pure Canadian or Vermont maple syrup. Note to self: Get a waffle iron. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Roberto on December 27, 2013, 10:59:35 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 27, 2013, 09:43:38 AM
You want to be careful around bassists, referring to their ax as a strange-sounding instrument ;)

I will be careful. :)
(I've heard solo double basses but in this recording it was slightly different.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 28, 2013, 06:23:50 AM

Quote from: Roberto on December 27, 2013, 10:59:35 PM
I will be careful. :)
(I've heard solo double basses but in this recording it was slightly different.)

Roberto,
Variation 7 is for 'solo violone'. While violone is considered in modern times to be a synonym for double bass, in fact, in the time, there were many different variations on that instrument. In Haydn's area, the most likely contender would have been an Austrian Violone (that is a name, not a description) which was rather short and squatty. It was used in church music and chamber music where it fit perfectly in a blend with the others. If the AAM bassist is using one (and he should be) it will not sound the same as one of those big old upright basses that are more commonly used. I suspect this accounts for the difference in sound. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on December 28, 2013, 06:28:39 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 28, 2013, 06:23:50 AM
Roberto,
Variation 7 is for 'solo violone'. While violone is considered in modern times to be a synonym for double bass, in fact, in the time, there were many different variations on that instrument. In Haydn's area, the most likely contender would have been an Austrian Violone (that is a name, not a description) which was rather short and squatty. It was used in church music and chamber music where it fit perfectly in a blend with the others. If the AAM bassist is using one (and he should be) it will not sound the same as one of those big old upright basses that are more commonly used. I suspect this accounts for the difference in sound. :)

8)

I had read up on it Gurn, when I first heard this movement! Quite honestly, I had never heard of a violone before. :-[ It is a great variation. I'm sure DRD/Stuttgart uses a double-bass, albeit, it sounds a bit different from a double-bass. Perhaps they tuned it a bit differently?

Regardless, that is a great Variation movement as a whole, and I do love that variation with the 'violone'.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 28, 2013, 06:40:56 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on December 28, 2013, 06:28:39 AM
I had read up on it Gurn, when I first heard this movement! Quite honestly, I had never heard of a violone before. :-[ It is a great variation. I'm sure DRD/Stuttgart uses a double-bass, albeit, it sounds a bit different from a double-bass. Perhaps they tuned it a bit differently?

Regardless, that is a great Variation movement as a whole, and I do love that variation with the 'violone'.

Hey, Ray,
I'm not sure what causes the different sound. What I have discovered about tunings is that there are dozens of different ones, perhaps one for each instrument (intentional exaggeration), so I don't know what effect that might have. Probably the biggest factors in tonal difference are the sound box (shape and size) and the strings. I don't know the physics of either one of those so I can't pursue this, but if I can find something I will be back here with it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 28, 2013, 06:48:58 AM

Thought you might like to listen to the remaining symphonies of 1765 also. Not a slouch in sight! Please have a look, we'll talk!

Symphonies 29 & 39 (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2013/12/1765-the-music-part-2-a-taste-of-things-to-come.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Roberto on December 28, 2013, 08:25:07 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 28, 2013, 06:23:50 AM
It was used in church music and chamber music where it fit perfectly in a blend with the others. If the AAM bassist is using one (and he should be) it will not sound the same as one of those big old upright basses that are more commonly used. I suspect this accounts for the difference in sound. :)

In this case I have very good ear. 8)

QuoteI'm not sure what causes the different sound.

I think the gut string sounds different too. (If they used it.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 28, 2013, 08:29:42 AM

Quote from: Roberto on December 28, 2013, 08:25:07 AM
In this case I have very good ear. 8)
I think the gut string sounds different too. (If they used it.)

Yes, this is a question. I know that basses were the first instruments to get wound strings because gut couldn't take the tension, at least in the lower strings. I am not completely sure if the higher strings weren't already metal even in early times. Something else to research, since you have my curiosity aroused now. :)

8)

Title: Haydn's Haus
Post by: GuybrushThreepwood on December 29, 2013, 04:03:28 PM

Have been listening to all the Haydn recording the Vivarte Box I received for Christmas includes.

I have been surprises by Bruno Weil directing the Tafelmusik in symphonies 41, 42 and 43. Because of this I have been thinking acquiring his Box Set (7 CDs, sampling from symphony 41 to 90). Anyone has some opinions to share regarding the remaining 6 discs?

Thank you very much!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 29, 2013, 04:34:46 PM

Thumb's up for that Bruno Weil box, love it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 29, 2013, 05:16:04 PM

Quote from: GuybrushThreepwood on December 29, 2013, 04:03:28 PM
Have been listening to all the Haydn recording the Vivarte Box I received for Christmas includes.

I have been surprises by Bruno Weil directing the Tafelmusik in symphonies 41, 42 and 43. Because of this I have been thinking acquiring his Box Set (7 CDs, sampling from symphony 41 to 90). Anyone has some opinions to share regarding the remaining 6 discs?

Thank you very much!!

Quote from: karlhenning on December 29, 2013, 04:34:46 PM
Thumb's up for that Bruno Weil box, love it.

Have to agree with Karl on this one. I like the early symphonies the best, but even the Paris ones, which were played originally with a quite large orchestra, come off well. I think that Weil has a great grip on the tempos required here, no overly dramatic Romantic style rubato, for example. I am listening to #50 right now, and I would be hard pressed to name a version that surpasses it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on December 29, 2013, 10:20:55 PM

Quote from: GuybrushThreepwood on December 29, 2013, 04:03:28 PM
Have been listening to all the Haydn recording the Vivarte Box I received for Christmas includes.

I have been surprises by Bruno Weil directing the Tafelmusik in symphonies 41, 42 and 43. Because of this I have been thinking acquiring his Box Set (7 CDs, sampling from symphony 41 to 90). Anyone has some opinions to share regarding the remaining 6 discs?

Thank you very much!!

I love it. :) Like Gurn said, his strong point is the rhythmic treatment, which is strong but feels completely natural.

Be sure to get his recording of the masses as well! :)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Justin on December 30, 2013, 06:31:22 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 27, 2013, 07:09:30 AM
When Nut first remarked on his disappointment with 30, I wondered if it had something to do with DRD...perhaps one of his lesser efforts? Unfortunately I couldn't find even short clips online to confirm or refute that suspicion. Ref Harnoncourt's Alleluja: I can't imagine anyone being disappointed with the symphony the way he tackles it 8)

Sarge

The allmusic site has clips of the Davies cycle. http://www.allmusic.com/album/joseph-haydn-the-complete-symphonies-mw0001878469 (http://www.allmusic.com/album/joseph-haydn-the-complete-symphonies-mw0001878469)

It helped tide me over/keep my interest until I snatched up my own copy.

Justin

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 30, 2013, 06:32:40 AM

Quote from: Justin on December 30, 2013, 06:31:22 AM
The allmusic site has clips of the Davies cycle. http://www.allmusic.com/album/joseph-haydn-the-complete-symphonies-mw0001878469 (http://www.allmusic.com/album/joseph-haydn-the-complete-symphonies-mw0001878469)

It helped tide me over/keep my interest until I snatched up my own copy.

Justin

Thank you! Much appreciated 8)

Sarge

Title: Haydn's Haus
Post by: GuybrushThreepwood on December 30, 2013, 01:21:11 PM

Great... Today I took the second CD of the box to the office and definitively I will have to acquire the set.

Thank you very much for encouraging me to buy the set. It's always nice to be pushed to buy new stuff xD.

Regards.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 30, 2013, 05:29:41 PM

Quote from: GuybrushThreepwood on December 30, 2013, 01:21:11 PM
Great... Today I took the second CD of the box to the office and definitively I will have to acquire the set.

Thank you very much for encouraging me to buy the set. It's always nice to be pushed to buy new stuff xD.

Regards.

Brilliant, Guy. I know you will enjoy it, some fine music making which once again raises the question asked so often with Haydn symphonies; why didn't they do more? ???

And let me just add, we here in der Haus are always delighted to push you to buy new stuff, so this is a match made in Haydn Heaven. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 31, 2013, 08:38:51 AM

The Allegro in the first movement of the DRD account of № 104 is unhurried. And I like it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 01, 2014, 09:35:37 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 31, 2013, 08:38:51 AM
The Allegro in the first movement of the DRD account of № 104 is unhurried. And I like it.

Unhurried is good. Not too good, or I should say 'too unhurried', but one doesn't want it all coming out in a rush. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 01, 2014, 09:37:56 AM

Added a new page to my blog, finally got around to updating the symphonies listing by a few more years. :)

Chronology 1767 - 74 (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/chronology-of-the-symphonies-part-3-1767-1774.html)

New essay coming later on this afternoon also. Weather isn't cooperating for outdoors activities, might as well write. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 01, 2014, 09:47:28 AM

Splendid! Happy new year, O Gurn!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 01, 2014, 10:05:56 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 01, 2014, 09:47:28 AM
Splendid! Happy new year, O Gurn!

And back at you, Karl. I wish winter was over, but I have a little box of new disks from our friends at BRO, so I have something on hand to keep amused. One of them is a Lola Odiaga disk of early sonatas. Hob. 5, 7, 8, 9, G1, D1, and the 2 "Raigern" sonatas, Eb2 & Eb3. Despite that she plays a fortepiano instead of a harpsichord, she is a quite stylish player so I expect to enjoy these. Also got some string quartets by the Fitzwilliams on PI, Op 1 #6, Op 71 #2 and Op 77 #2. Don't know these guys, hoping for the best. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 01, 2014, 10:53:24 AM

I've been taking advantage of a couple days at home to listen to more of both the DRD & Hogwood boxes. Different takes, but each is smashing in its way.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 01, 2014, 10:58:00 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 01, 2014, 10:53:24 AM
I've been taking advantage of a couple days at home to listen to more of both the DRD & Hogwood boxes. Different takes, but each is smashing in its way.

Yes, I'm supposing that is the benefit of having versions. In fact, I'm listening to some Pinnock now; I had forgotten what a nice way they have with the works in the 40's. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 01, 2014, 01:18:05 PM

As promised, the next of the series. I hope you will read this one and come back and discuss with me. I am looking for ideas, and you will see why once you've read this.

The first baryton trios (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/01/1765-the-music-part-3-how-does-one-approach-this-achievement.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Justin on January 01, 2014, 02:06:27 PM

What fortunate timing for me! I just received my Brilliant Haydn Edition box days ago, after pining for it for ~~months~~ years. The baryton works are among the pieces I most look forward to exploring.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 01, 2014, 02:09:33 PM

Quote from: Justin on January 01, 2014, 02:06:27 PM
What fortunate timing for me! I just received my Brilliant Haydn Edition box days ago, after pining for it for ~~months~~ years. The baryton works are among the pieces I most look forward to exploring.

Excellent! Until I got the Big Box, I only had 3 single disks, so I was basically unfamiliar with the group. As I talk about in my essay, it took a little effort to get into them and eventually get the most appreciation for them, but I'm glad I did. I think you will be too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on January 01, 2014, 09:53:59 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 01, 2014, 01:18:05 PM
As promised, the next of the series. I hope you will read this one and come back and discuss with me. I am looking for ideas, and you will see why once you've read this.

The first baryton trios (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/01/1765-the-music-part-3-how-does-one-approach-this-achievement.html)

Thanks,
8)

I see you suggested the transcriptions for basset horns by the Trio di Basetto (K617), nice! :)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 02, 2014, 04:14:15 AM

Quote from: Que on January 01, 2014, 09:53:59 PM
I see you suggested the transcriptions for basset horns by the Trio di Basetto (K617), nice! :)

Q

Indeed, hard not to like those!!

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 04, 2014, 12:57:00 PM

I finally completed the final essay for 1765. Had to cover a lot of ground, in fact it is my longest essay to date (which fact you can give negative or positive feedback on here). So much happening, next year we move to Eszterháza, and things change forever. If you are inclined to read, please do so. If you are inclined to give feedback and discuss, even more welcome! :)

Adios to 1765 (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/01/1765-the-music-part-4-in-the-masters-chamber.html)

Thanks,
Gurn 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on January 04, 2014, 09:22:15 PM

It still doesn't seem that long, actually.

Honestly, for someone like me who likes cataloguing and completeness and context and good information, your blogging is an absolute Godsend. Being able to see where a work fits, or is thought to fit, chronologically within a composer's output is exactly what I want. I haven't read systematically from the beginning, but I'm bound to one day, and I think the size of your chunks of text is excellent. To me it's all very clear and well written.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 05, 2014, 06:26:39 AM

Quote from: orfeo on January 04, 2014, 09:22:15 PM
It still doesn't seem that long, actually.

Honestly, for someone like me who likes cataloguing and completeness and context and good information, your blogging is an absolute Godsend. Being able to see where a work fits, or is thought to fit, chronologically within a composer's output is exactly what I want. I haven't read systematically from the beginning, but I'm bound to one day, and I think the size of your chunks of text is excellent. To me it's all very clear and well written.

Thank you very kindly, Orfeo. It is very useful to me to know I am providing this information in a good way. You never really know you are hitting the mark with some aspects, and length of essay is a big one. I've been averaging around 1000 words, but this one was 1600 so I was a bit anxious about it.

So pleased it fills a gap for you. Thanks for reading! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: marvinbrown on January 06, 2014, 04:01:33 AM

Haydn fans and experts (ie Mr. Gurn Blanston, Mr. Sarge, Mr. Karl Henning and co. Happy New Year by the way!!) I posted this on the Recordings you are considering thread but I figured this is a more appropriate place:

I need to supplement my Fischer Box of COMPLETE Haydn symphonies (Brilliant Label) with the late symphonies, namely the Paris and London symphonies. Reason: Fischer recorded these symphonies first but got progressively better as he worked his way back to Haydn's earlier symphonies. I would like to hear a clearer if not better interpretation. I am thinking one of these 2 sets:

[asin]B001DCQI9Q[/asin]

OR

[asin]B001TKK39S[/asin]

Oh yes...there it is again Karajan vs. Bernstein. I do realize that Karajan has the better orchestra here while Bernstein has the added advantage of the masses and the Creation, or should I look elsewhere?.......... what to do? what to do?

marvin

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 06, 2014, 04:18:18 AM

I have not heard HvK in "Papa", Marvin, but his Mozart was not at all to my liking. So: I cannot directly answer to that, but I should be cautious.

Fortunately, though, I can enthuse for Lenny's set here, and on its own merits, because I have long been familiar with it: vital, and sensitive, music-making. Engage!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 06, 2014, 04:43:56 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 06, 2014, 04:18:18 AM
I have not heard HvK in "Papa", Marvin, but his Mozart was not at all to my liking. So: I cannot directly answer to that, but I should be cautious.

Fortunately, though, I can enthuse for Lenny's set here, and on its own merits, because I have long been familiar with it: vital, and sensitive, music-making. Engage!

I have a certain respect for Karajan's Mozart--not fondness, but respect: he did Mozart in a way that we, sitting here in 2014, think of as all wrong, but because it's so different, it's quite worth hearing--as an alternative, though. Like Karl, I have not heard his Haydn, but people seem to not like his Haydn for the same reasons they don't like his Mozart.

Solti recorded the London symphonies, and so did Szell: both are good to my ears, and better to my ears than Bernstein's Haydn recordings on DG (a much smaller set than the Sony recordings Karl posted, which I have not heard); you may want to check then out before you make a final decision.

ETA: the Solti set, which seems to be less known than the Szell.
[asin]B0001Y4JHK[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2014, 03:15:11 AM

My recommendations in the other thread: Lenny before Herbie along with Fey's Paris set and Norrington or Minkowski's Londons.

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 06, 2014, 04:43:56 PM

Solti recorded the London symphonies, and so did Szell

Szell's Haydn should be in every serious collection but since his is not a complete London set it might not be as attractive for Marvin. Solti's Haydn I haven't heard but I'll take your word that it's worth consideration (I love the Mozart I've heard him conduct).

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 07, 2014, 08:05:50 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2014, 03:15:11 AM
My recommendations in the other thread: Lenny before Herbie along with Fey's Paris set and Norrington or Minkowski's Londons.

Szell's Haydn should be in every serious collection but since his is not a complete London set it might not be as attractive for Marvin. Solti's Haydn I haven't heard but I'll take your word that it's worth consideration (I love the Mozart I've heard him conduct).

Sarge

Well. that would explain why my set is only a partial one. I thought there was more I didn't have....
Solti is available dirt cheap, btw.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 07, 2014, 08:16:22 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 07, 2014, 08:05:50 AM
Solti is available dirt cheap, btw.

Yeah, I see that: 11 Euro new from some Amazon DE sellers.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 11, 2014, 10:09:09 AM

New acquisition arrived yesterday. I should have got it years ago.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardLeach2_zps0641d381.jpg)

This is Leach's second all-Haydn disk. Purists will immediately bristle over the fact that she plays an 1823 English (Stodart) square piano. However, by the time these works were all published and distributed to the general public, it is not nearly as inappropriate as it seems at first blush. It is still just a 5.5 octave keyboard, and the sound is gorgeous! Leach is an extremely stylish player, very much an artist. Her realizations here are totally fine, even in the 1765 Capriccio, which I generally prefer on the Viennese short octave harpsichord for which it was composed. Nonetheless, this is easily the finest piano realization that I have.

Leach's first all-Haydn revue is here:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardLeach1_zpsd1b7e338.jpg)

The two disks together comprise mainly what are known as the Auenbrugger Sonatas because of their dedication to the sisters of that name. In addition, there is Hob 49, dedicated to Marianne Genzinger, a really fine piece.

The sonatas are listed here:

Hob 16: 20, 23, 34, 35, 36, 37, 49 & 51

In addition there are some very well performed variations and non-sonatas:

Hob 17: 1 & 6 (Un Piccolo Divertimento)

If you are an absolute purist about keyboards, clearly these won't be what you are looking for. But if you are willing to stretch a point, not only do these sound great, but they are a nice selection that show Haydn's artistry as well as the player's. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on January 11, 2014, 10:30:05 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 11, 2014, 10:09:09 AM
New acquisition arrived yesterday. I should have got it years ago.

This lady was a terrific performer, so low profile and always in total command of her instrument.

For those interested this track (second Gurn's cover) could be an useful link. (:

http://mfi.re/listen/nytwjmnwygk/(Variations_in_F_minor,_Hob.XVII-6)_Sonata_-_un_piccolo_divert.mp3

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 11, 2014, 11:04:28 AM

Quote from: Gordo on January 11, 2014, 10:30:05 AM
This lady was a terrific performer, so low profile and always in total command of her instrument.

For those interested this track (second Gurn's cover) could be an useful link. :)

http://mfi.re/listen/nytwjmnwygk/(Variations_in_F_minor,_Hob.XVII-6)_Sonata_-_un_piccolo_divert.mp3

Indeed, that was my own introduction to her... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 11, 2014, 05:46:28 PM

I'm glad there's always a light on at da Haus.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 11, 2014, 05:53:00 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 11, 2014, 05:46:28 PM
I'm glad there's always a light on at da Haus.

Indeed, we keep it burning for such as you, Karl. 0:)

Meanwhile, I've been edging around with 1766. It is an eventful year, unless one is simply rewriting 'Chronicle & Works' one needs to pare down to the essentials!

If you would like to see what I've done there, here it is, steaming fresh! :)

1766, a new record for new records (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/01/1766-a-new-record-for-new.html)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 11, 2014, 06:18:10 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 11, 2014, 05:46:28 PM
I'm glad there's always a light on at da Haus.

It's our home away from home. 8)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 11, 2014, 05:53:00 PM
Indeed, we keep it burning for such as you, Karl. 0:)

Meanwhile, I've been edging around with 1766. It is an eventful year, unless one is simply rewriting 'Chronicle & Works' one needs to pare down to the essentials!

If you would like to see what I've done there, here it is, steaming fresh! :)

1766, a new record for new records (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/01/1766-a-new-record-for-new.html)

8)

Thanks, Gurn. Keep up the great work, it's a joy to have such wonderful resources on Haydn's life available to us.

Random list...

Current top 5 favorite/most listened to String Quartets from Papa, and recording of choice...

1) Quartet in F minor, Op. 20 no 5 - London Haydn String Quartet
2) Quartet in D minor, Op. 76 no 2 "Fifths" - The Lindsays
3) Quartet in B minor, Op. 64 no 2 - Buchberger String Quartet
4) Quartet in C major, Op. 54 no 2 - Endellion String Quartet
5) Quartet in F major, Op. 77 no 2 "Lobkowitz" - Edding String Quartet

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 11, 2014, 07:06:23 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 11, 2014, 06:18:10 PM
It's our home away from home. 8)

Thanks, Gurn. Keep up the great work, it's a joy to have such wonderful resources on Haydn's life available to us.

Random list...

Current top 5 favorite/most listened to String Quartets from Papa, and recording of choice...

1) Quartet in F minor, Op. 20 no 5 - London Haydn String Quartet
2) Quartet in D minor, Op. 76 no 2 "Fifths" - The Lindsays
3) Quartet in B minor, Op. 64 no 2 - Buchberger String Quartet
4) Quartet in C major, Op. 54 no 2 - Endellion String Quartet
5) Quartet in F major, Op. 77 no 2 "Lobkowitz" - Edding String Quartet

Thanks for the kind words, Greg. I'm pleased that others benefit from my curiosity! :)

That's a fine list of quartets you have there. Round it out to an even half dozen with

6) Quartet in Bb Major, Op 50 #1 - Tokyo Quartet

and you can't go wrong! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on January 11, 2014, 09:14:45 PM

I could be mistaken, but I think it was that Tokyo recording that I fell head over heels for in a blind listening test, only to discover that it's never been released on a 'proper' CD.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on January 11, 2014, 11:03:41 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 11, 2014, 10:09:09 AM
New acquisition arrived yesterday. I should have got it years ago.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardLeach2_zps0641d381.jpg)

This is Leach's second all-Haydn disk. Purists will immediately bristle over the fact that she plays an 1823 English (Stodart) square piano. However, by the time these works were all published and distributed to the general public, it is not nearly as inappropriate as it seems at first blush. It is still just a 5.5 octave keyboard, and the sound is gorgeous! Leach is an extremely stylish player, very much an artist. Her realizations here are totally fine, even in the 1765 Capriccio, which I generally prefer on the Viennese short octave harpsichord for which it was composed. Nonetheless, this is easily the finest piano realization that I have.

Leach's first all-Haydn revue is here:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardLeach1_zpsd1b7e338.jpg)

The two disks together comprise mainly what are known as the Auenbrugger Sonatas because of their dedication to the sisters of that name. In addition, there is Hob 49, dedicated to Marianne Genzinger, a really fine piece.

The sonatas are listed here:

Hob 16: 20, 23, 34, 35, 36, 37, 49 & 51

In addition there are some very well performed variations and non-sonatas:

Hob 17: 1 & 6 (Un Piccolo Divertimento)

If you are an absolute purist about keyboards, clearly these won't be what you are looking for. But if you are willing to stretch a point, not only do these sound great, but they are a nice selection that show Haydn's artistry as well as the player's. :)

8)

I checked out the new Leach when I saw she played Hob xvi/ 36 (No. 49 in C sharp minor) which is a favourite sonata. It was Bavouzet's recording which made me realise what a gem this sonata is.

I'd come across Joanna Leach before when I was exploring Scarlatti recordings.

Re all the discussion about Karajan and Bernstein's Paris symphonies, which I just noticed, if I remember right Bernstein plays the music in a very upbeat way, very reassuring and jolly. While on the Karajan there are more anxiety filled moments. Is that right? It's years since I played them, I recall very much liking what Karajan does.

Re the capriccio, I think it can sound great on piano. There's an absolutely tremendous recording by Zoltan Kocsis. I would have prefered it on a keyboard tuned like Beghin's, but I guess it would be hard to persuade Kocsis to play one of those.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on January 11, 2014, 11:39:58 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 11, 2014, 05:53:00 PM
Indeed, we keep it burning for such as you, Karl. 0:)

Meanwhile, I've been edging around with 1766. It is an eventful year, unless one is simply rewriting 'Chronicle & Works' one needs to pare down to the essentials!

If you would like to see what I've done there, here it is, steaming fresh! :)

1766, a new record for new records (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/01/1766-a-new-record-for-new.html)

8)

I found your thoughts on the rise and decline of the Esterháza palace very interesting, and eloquently put.

I really need to go there some time! :)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Octave on January 12, 2014, 12:26:38 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 11, 2014, 10:09:09 AM
New acquisition arrived yesterday. I should have got it years ago.

Ah, this is certainly of interest. Joanna Leach's disc of John Field nocturnes was a highlight to my listening year 2013, and I see that two out of the three square pianos that she plays on that recording are from 1823. I loved the sound of the Field recording, so these two Haydn discs will be musts for me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 12, 2014, 05:16:56 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 11, 2014, 06:18:10 PM
It's our home away from home. 8)

Random list...

Current top 5 favorite/most listened to String Quartets from Papa, and recording of choice...

1) Quartet in F minor, Op. 20 no 5 - London Haydn String Quartet
2) Quartet in D minor, Op. 76 no 2 "Fifths" - The Lindsays
3) Quartet in B minor, Op. 64 no 2 - Buchberger String Quartet
4) Quartet in C major, Op. 54 no 2 - Endellion String Quartet
5) Quartet in F major, Op. 77 no 2 "Lobkowitz" - Edding String Quartet

Only one point of intersection, even when I expand my list to 10. Unusual for us!...but here we're looking at a huge amount of superb works and performances to whittle down to a small (and needless ;D ) list. Not surprising then that our lists are so different.

op.9/4 D minor - London Haydn String Quartet
op.20/2 C major - Quatuor Mosaiques
op.33/1 B minor - Apponyi Quartett
op.33/2 E flat "Joke"- Apponyi Quartett
op:33/3 C major "Bird" - Apponyi Quartett
op.50/4 F sharp minor - Tokyo Quartet
op.64/3 B flat major - Quatuor Mosaiques
op.74/3 G minor "Rider" - Schuppanzigh Quartett
op.76/2 D minor "Fifths" - Jerusalem Quartet
op.76/3 C major "Kaiser" - Amadeus Quartet
op.77/1 G major - Jerusalem Quartet

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 12, 2014, 05:48:39 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 12, 2014, 05:16:56 AM

Only one point of intersection, even when I expand my list to 10. Unusual for us!...but here we're looking at a huge amount of superb works to whittle down to a small (and needless ;D ) list. Not surprising then that our lists are so different.

op.9/4 D minor - London Haydn String Quartet
op.20/2 C major - Quatuor Mosaiques
op.33/1 B minor - Apponyi Quartett
op.33/2 E flat "Joke"- Apponyi Quartett
op:33/3 C major "Bird" - Apponyi Quartett
op.50/4 F sharp minor - Tokyo Quartet
op.64/3 B flat major - Quatuor Mosaiques
op.74/3 G minor "Rider" - Schuppanzigh Quartett
op.76/2 D minor "Fifths" - Jerusalem Quartet
op.76/3 C major "Kaiser" - Amadeus Quartet
op.77/1 G major - Jerusalem Quartet

I need to listen to Apponyi, I see you post them quite a bit. If I expanded my (needless indeed) list, more than likely "Joke" and "Bird" would be included. Possibly even "Rider" with that fabulous, galloping finale.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 12, 2014, 05:50:05 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 12, 2014, 05:48:39 AM
I need to listen to Apponyi,

The Apponyi's op.33 really is stunning. Yes, try to hear it.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 12, 2014, 05:51:58 AM

Quote from: orfeo on January 11, 2014, 09:14:45 PM
I could be mistaken, but I think it was that Tokyo recording that I fell head over heels for in a blind listening test, only to discover that it's never been released on a 'proper' CD.

Well, your memory is both right and wrong. I remember you preferring the Tokyo above all (I know, odd thing to remember, but there it is). But the recording was a regular DG 2 disk box. It is OOP and hard to find, however, (and here is your memory) it is always available on Arkiv as one of their reprints. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 12, 2014, 05:55:41 AM

Quote from: Que on January 11, 2014, 11:39:58 PM
I found your thoughts on the rise and decline of the Esterháza palace very interesting, and eloquently put.

I really need to go there some time! :)

Q

Thanks, Q. I found the whole topic to be quite fascinating. It sort of reached out and touched me. If I could hop on a train for 4 hours and spend a day or two, I would probably go twice; once for you! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 12, 2014, 05:58:41 AM

Quote from: Octave on January 12, 2014, 12:26:38 AM
Ah, this is certainly of interest. Joanna Leach's disc of John Field nocturnes was a highlight to my listening year 2013, and I see that two out of the three square pianos that she plays on that recording are from 1823. I loved the sound of the Field recording, so these two Haydn discs will be musts for me.

Yes, I saw that Field Nocturne disk sitting out there, some of my favorite little works. You are the first who has mentioned it. I reckon I need it also. :) I think you will really like the Haydn disks.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 12, 2014, 06:39:41 AM

Stray thought came into my head the other day:
the opening of The Creation is re-incarnated in the opening of Beethoven's Ninth.

(posted while listening to CDs 9 and 10 of the DRD Cube).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 12, 2014, 06:47:04 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 12, 2014, 06:39:41 AM
Stray thought came into my head the other day:
the opening of The Creation is re-incarnated in the opening of Beethoven's Ninth.

(posted while listening to CDs 9 and 10 of the DRD Cube).

I like that. My take on it (FWIW) is that the methods used to get there were quite different and unique to each composer's way of working, but the intention was exactly the same. Two of my favorite little spots in each man's oeuvre, they must have been doing something elemental. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on January 12, 2014, 07:42:13 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 12, 2014, 05:55:41 AM
Thanks, Q. I found the whole topic to be quite fascinating. It sort of reached out and touched me. If I could hop on a train for 4 hours and spend a day or two, I would probably go twice; once for you! :D

8)

Just out of curiosity, I checked and it would take me 22 hours to travel by train from The Hague, via Berlin and Vienna to Neusiedl am See (Austria), which is the nearest train station to the Eszterhazy Palace. ;D

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 12, 2014, 07:53:38 AM

Quote from: Que on January 12, 2014, 07:42:13 AM
Just out of curiosity, I checked and it would take me 22 hours to travel by train from The Hague, via Berlin and Vienna to Neusiedl am See (Austria), which is the nearest train station to the Eszterházy Palace. ;D

Q

After my 52 hours from Texas to Vermont last Fall, I could do 22 standing on my head! :D I'll admit though that it is more formidable than I expected. Europe is so small, I didn't think it could take so long. ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 12, 2014, 06:31:49 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 12, 2014, 07:53:38 AM
After my 52 hours from Texas to Vermont last Fall, I could do 22 standing on my head! :D I'll admit though that it is more formidable than I expected. Europe is so small, I didn't think it could take so long. ;)

8)

Well, one could at least stop off at Berlin and Vienna and find something of interest to do, to break the journey.

But as a direct comparison--when I was checking into going directly from Fort Lauderdale to Fredericksburg VA next May (as opposed to joining family in Boston and going with them from there), I discovered that to go by train from Fort Lauderdale to Richmond is approximately 25 hours (all on one train), before getting off, waiting several hours, and taking a one hour train ride from Richmond to Fredericksburg.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 13, 2014, 04:19:26 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 12, 2014, 07:53:38 AM
I could do 22 standing on my head! :D I'll admit though that it is more formidable than I expected. Europe is so small, I didn't think it could take so long. ;)

8)

By car it would take approxiamately twelve hours. Here's the shortest route (https://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF-8&gl=&daddr=Vienna,+Austria&saddr=The+Hague,+The+Netherlands&panel=1&f=d&fb=1&geocode=KXG9mEIvt8VHMRBsHo1a3gAE%3BKZ_KNlGeB21HMUZbolGK5cL9&ei=-OXTUvr3JoPDtQbN2YHQBw&ved=0CCkQ-A8wAA) (to Vienna; Esterháza is, what, another 60, 70km?).

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 13, 2014, 04:24:17 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 13, 2014, 04:19:26 AM
By car it would take approxiamately twelve hours. Here's the shortest route (https://maps.google.com/maps?ie=UTF-8&gl=&daddr=Vienna,+Austria&saddr=The+Hague,+The+Netherlands&panel=1&f=d&fb=1&geocode=KXG9mEIvt8VHMRBsHo1a3gAE%3BKZ_KNlGeB21HMUZbolGK5cL9&ei=-OXTUvr3JoPDtQbN2YHQBw&ved=0CCkQ-A8wAA) (to Vienna).

Sarge

Ah, that is so much more what I expected. Although Jeffrey has a point; by train, it isn't the time spent moving, it is the time spent not moving that eats you up. Even in areas where you are forced to go slow, you are still going and making progress. Terminals are a killer! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 15, 2014, 04:55:34 PM

I've been enjoying my research into the year 1766. While many of the little tidbits don't bear rewriting, they do provide for interesting reading for me. Meanwhile, I managed to extract one, solitary and sadly underplayed symphony out of all that. If yuo are up for it, have a read. I would be delighted if you then went on to discover this little oddity for yourself. :)

Symphony #28 (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/01/1766-the-music-part-1-not-just-the-music.html)

Thanks!
Gurn 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 18, 2014, 07:48:47 AM

I am curious what some of you think about Keyboard Concerto #3 (18:3) and 4 (18:4). I read such a varied reaction to Haydn's concertos in general, and I don't really know what to think. Obviously one can't compare a pair of work composed in ~1766 with the Mozart works of the mid-1780's, not least because of the fact that Haydn wrote his for the Prince's drawing Room (most likely) while Mozart wrote his to show his skills in a large public venue in Vienna. But just as works on their own, not in comparison with anything else, I am curious what y'all think.

I don't really care about who is the performer, this isn't a contest for best performance, or even what instrument it is played on. These were marketed as 'piano concertos' almost from the beginning, despite they weren't written for piano. :)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 18, 2014, 09:08:18 AM

I'm working on my Credo for a while, but after, yes, it is high time I revisited those. (I wonder which of them I have loaded in the car's mp3 bank?)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 18, 2014, 03:45:29 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 18, 2014, 07:48:47 AM
I am curious what some of you think about Keyboard Concerto #3 (18:3) and 4 (18:4). I read such a varied reaction to Haydn's concertos in general, and I don't really know what to think. Obviously one can't compare a pair of work composed in ~1766 with the Mozart works of the mid-1780's, not least because of the fact that Haydn wrote his for the Prince's drawing Room (most likely) while Mozart wrote his to show his skills in a large public venue in Vienna. But just as works on their own, not in comparison with anything else, I am curious what y'all think.

I don't really care about who is the performer, this isn't a contest for best performance, or even what instrument it is played on. These were marketed as 'piano concertos' almost from the beginning, despite they weren't written for piano. :)

Thanks!
8)

I love both of these works. I have them with Andsnes performing (and the 4th with Pletnev as well). The 4th is such a great piece, overflowing with melody and joy. I can't see that it suffers in any way with Mozart. I love #3 as well, though perhaps not quite as much as #4 (which is one of my favorite Haydn pieces). I think it relies more on textures and even rhythm than #4, but is interesting in its own way. #3 is perhaps not quite as 'advanced', but I say this as a way to describe it, not rate it. #4 is as good as anything written by anyone.

EDIT: I forgot to mention the Pletnev and Andsnes take it at remarkably different speeds (Pletnev much slower, something like 7-8 minutes - makes me think there might be some repeats in there that Andsnes doesn't take, although Pletnev is noticeably slower in any case). And while the performances are different, I don't find the piece suffers for it. It can take it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 18, 2014, 04:53:41 PM

Thanks for the input, Neal. I haven't heard Andsnes, but I like what I have heard from him, he can sell it if anyone can. As you say though, not that it needs that, it can take it. After reading your post I thought it might be a good idea to check my own stock. I have 3 versions on harpsichord, Koopman, Schornsheim & Demeyere (with Kuijken) and one on fortepiano (Brautigam). I like the way Brautigam restrains himself, something he doesn't always do! This is good, it can take it. :)

In comparing the concerto with a solo sonata (Hob 16:45 in Eb) composed the same year (1766), I hear an entirely different approach to both the keyboard part and in the orchestral side, to Symphony #28 which is also contemporary. Of the three, the concerto is surprisingly the most modern sounding, despite the frequent accusations of his keyboard concertos sounding old fashioned.

Actually, the more I listen to it, the better I like it. I have a modern version with Ax that I need to dig out. Hmmm..... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 18, 2014, 05:30:53 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 18, 2014, 04:53:41 PM
Thanks for the input, Neal. I haven't heard Andsnes, but I like what I have heard from him, he can sell it if anyone can. As you say though, not that it needs that, it can take it. After reading your post I thought it might be a good idea to check my own stock. I have 3 versions on harpsichord, Koopman, Schornsheim & Demeyere (with Kuijken) and one on fortepiano (Brautigam). I like the way Brautigam restrains himself, something he doesn't always do! This is good, it can take it. :)

In comparing the concerto with a solo sonata (Hob 16:45 in Eb) composed the same year (1766), I hear an entirely different approach to both the keyboard part and in the orchestral side, to Symphony #28 which is also contemporary. Of the three, the concerto is surprisingly the most modern sounding, despite the frequent accusations of his keyboard concertos sounding old fashioned.

Actually, the more I listen to it, the better I like it. I have a modern version with Ax that I need to dig out. Hmmm..... :)

8)

You might be interested: The timing of the movements for Andsnes is 7.43, 6.35, 3.39. Pletnev is 11.27, 9.35, 4.34. So 17 min vs 25 min!! That's significant! I like Ax's way with Haydn by the way (but not so much the rest). The Andsnes remind me a lot of his String Quartets in a lot of ways - very vibrant and not heavy at all. The Sonata seems more simplistic on its own, but sheer technique was never what these pieces were about. Still, the concerto is remarkably layered for all that it is not really all that demanding on the pianist. The symphony doesn't sound as mature to me. It's interesting to see the different works from different ouvres in a way I had never looked at them. I think the concerto the most appealing by a long shot.

I think the 'old-fashioned' claim is out of date (:)). Sure, others may have been more adventurous or demanding in expanding the form, but that should not reduce the value of Haydn's work. I generally love the concerto, and from that time, there are only a few I truly love. Haydn (#4) is one of them. But having said that, in the fast third movement with Andsnes, he convinces you with unassailable technique, style and grace. So perhaps it is also a question of interpretation (something you were perhaps not interested in getting too bogged down in, but I think it is factor nonetheless).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 18, 2014, 05:54:40 PM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 18, 2014, 05:30:53 PM
You might be interested: The timing of the movements for Andsnes is 7.43, 6.35, 3.39. Pletnev is 11.27, 9.35, 4.34. So 17 min vs 25 min!! That's significant! I like Ax's way with Haydn by the way (but not so much the rest). The Andsnes remind me a lot of his String Quartets in a lot of ways - very vibrant and not heavy at all. The Sonata seems more simplistic on its own, but sheer technique was never what these pieces were about. Still, the concerto is remarkably layered for all that it is not really all that demanding on the pianist. The symphony doesn't sound as mature to me. It's interesting to see the different works from different oeuvres in a way I had never looked at them. I think the concerto the most appealing by a long shot.

Wow! I wonder if Celi was conducting! :) Actually, I really wonder if all repeats were being taken, or if it is just tempo. Those are significant numbers. The sonata is actually very simplistic, I believe he was constructing it as a model for future works. It is in a small group called 'the workshop sonatas', and it sounds like it. There is a clear linear progression in his keyboard works around that time. This one is on the dividing line. My own take on the symphony is that it is an experimental work. I would bet that when it was heard by his contemporaries they thought immediately 'Henning!'. Even discounting the German critics who hated it beyond reason, I suspect it still was thought quite odd. I haven't decided on it yet, despite listening to it 10 times last week in preparation for that essay.

QuoteI think the 'old-fashioned' claim is out of date (:)). Sure, others may have been more adventurous or demanding in expanding the form, but that should not reduce the value of Haydn's work. I generally love the concerto, and from that time, there are only a few I truly love. Haydn (#4) is one of them. But having said that, in the fast third movement with Andsnes, he convinces you with unassailable technique, style and grace. So perhaps it is also a question of interpretation (something you were perhaps not interested in getting too bogged down in, but I think it is factor nonetheless).

Yes, the music critics who are all dead now were quite unable to apply context (time and purpose being the main offenders usually) to a work when comparing it with other works. And the extrapolations the drew from anomalies they heard led them to some pretty strange conclusions. I agree, that claim is outdated, but it still shows up from time to time. Too bad, really, because it drives people off like nothing else! :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 18, 2014, 06:18:33 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 18, 2014, 05:54:40 PM
Wow! I wonder if Celi was conducting! :) Actually, I really wonder if all repeats were being taken, or if it is just tempo. Those are significant numbers.

I was just doing a little digging and in a review of Hamelin, I see that both Andsnes and Hamelin had their own cadenzas. Andsnes are apparently shorter. Gramophone says the Hamelin adds 8 minutes in cadenzas alone to the whole disc. So perhaps that and the faster tempo explain it. There was a quote you might find interesting as well...

Quote...No 4 in G, audibly a later, harmonically richer work and one which was performed by the blind pianist Maria Theresia von Paradis (also the recipient of Mozart's K456) in Paris in 1784...Comparison is often made (not in Haydn's favour) with the piano concertos of Mozart; and while it's true that they don't display the melodic generosity or orchestral richness of Mozart's miraculous string of Vienna piano concertos of the 1780s, Haydn could not have heard those works before writing even the latest of his three, the D major. That's not to say, however, that Haydn's keyboard concertos are primitive or suffer from paucity of imagination, either thematically or orchestrally. Enjoy these works on their own terms and they're every bit as rewarding in their own way...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 18, 2014, 06:26:47 PM

Listening to 2 different recordings of the same works within a few days of each other can have a definite impact on the auditory results.

I am finding, for instance, that Ansermet's Paris Symphonies (with Orchestre de Suisse Romande) seem livelier and energetic--more proto Beethoven, in a way--than Fey's (with Heidelberger Sinfoniker), to the definite disadvantage of our favorite Hobbit.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 19, 2014, 03:15:15 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 18, 2014, 06:26:47 PM
I am finding, for instance, that Ansermet's Paris Symphonies (with Orchestre de Suisse Romande) seem livelier and energetic--more proto Beethoven, in a way--than Fey's (with Heidelberger Sinfoniker), to the definite disadvantage of our favorite Hobbit.

I dunno, I might side with the Hobbit, there . . . just in principle, it recalls to me how well I like Ozawa's elegant touch with the Prokofiev Classical Symphony, and how tiresome I've found it when everyone seems keen to treat it as a circus bee . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 19, 2014, 06:11:23 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 18, 2014, 06:26:47 PM
Listening to 2 different recordings of the same works within a few days of each other can have a definite impact on the auditory results.

I am finding, for instance, that Ansermet's Paris Symphonies (with Orchestre de Suisse Romande) seem livelier and energetic--more proto Beethoven, in a way--than Fey's (with Heidelberger Sinfoniker), to the definite disadvantage of our favorite Hobbit.

I have trouble believing there is a more energetic conductor of Haydn than the manic Hobbit ;D

So I listened to clips of Ansermet's Haydn at JPC and compared Bear and Hen directly to Fey (short clips can't offer definitive proof, I know). At least in these two symphonies, Fey is consistently faster in most movements and seems to have his metronome set to the same speed as Ansermet's in the first movement of the Bear and the slow movement of the Hen. But maybe you have a different definition of livelier and energetic? Or maybe, since you listened within a few days rather than a few minutes or seconds, your aural memory is playing a trick on you? Not that it matters. The blind comparisons prove we all hear and describe what we hear very differently.

Thank you for bringing this up. As I said elsewhere, I hadn't known Ansermet's Paris symphonies even existed until I saw your purchase. I liked what I heard--and I really wasn't expecting what I heard! Ansermet made a very favorable impression on me. Oh lord...I do not need another Paris set.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 19, 2014, 02:14:26 PM

Thanks to Neal for the interesting input on the Concerto #3 for Keyboard. It gave me something to ponder while I was writing this, my latest essay.

Keyboard Concerto #3 and friends (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/01/1766-the-music-part-2-.html)

I hope you will read it and find something interesting to listen to. :)

Thanks,
Gurn 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 19, 2014, 05:21:32 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 19, 2014, 06:11:23 AM
I have trouble believing there is a more energetic conductor of Haydn than the manic Hobbit ;D

So I listened to clips of Ansermet's Haydn at JPC and compared Bear and Hen directly to Fey (short clips can't offer definitive proof, I know). At least in these two symphonies, Fey is consistently faster in most movements and seems to have his metronome set to the same speed as Ansermet's in the first movement of the Bear and the slow movement of the Hen. But maybe you have a different definition of livelier and energetic? Or maybe, since you listened within a few days rather than a few minutes or seconds, your aural memory is playing a trick on you? Not that it matters. The blind comparisons prove we all hear and describe what we hear very differently.

Thank you for bringing this up. As I said elsewhere, I hadn't known Ansermet's Paris symphonies even existed until I saw your purchase. I liked what I heard--and I really wasn't expecting what I heard! Ansermet made a very favorable impression on me. Oh lord...I do not need another Paris set.

Sarge

I have found that the Hobbit has impressed me less than he has impressed most other GMG'ers, although I can't pick a precise reason for it. And yes, it is possible that aural memory was simply playing tricks on me. Or perhaps simply that I hadn't heard these symphonies for a bit. But I did remember Ansermet being more livelier--or perhaps, better phrased, he found more things under the surface, whereas Fey's account seemed more superficial and a trifle (just a trifle) more elegant. The Bear was less bumptious with Fey. But in Ansermet's reading I could hear a sort of pre-echo of Beethoven's Fourth and Seventh, which I didn't hear in Fey.

I played only the first CD last night; tonight I'll play the second CD of the pair, and perhaps my impression will improve.

ETA--it occurs to me that perhaps my poor reception of Fey last night was due to playing it in too close proximity to Karajan's Eroica. The pre-echoes may have simply not stood out so much in comparison to the "real" Beethoven.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on January 19, 2014, 06:20:00 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 19, 2014, 03:15:15 AM
I dunno, I might side with the Hobbit, there . . . just in principle, it recalls to me how well I like Ozawa's elegant touch with the Prokofiev Classical Symphony, and how tiresome I've found it when everyone seems keen to treat it as a circus bee . . . .

Well, I'm not sure I'd say the Classical suffers as much as that! ;) I've heard it aplenty on my local classical FM station (it's a hot ticket item...no surprise) and I've found it to be quite well done.

In fact, Prokofiev with too much velvet turns me off. So in the battle of the hypotheticals I'd probably not be too keen on Ozawa.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 19, 2014, 07:09:31 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 19, 2014, 05:21:32 PM

I played only the first CD last night; tonight I'll play the second CD of the pair, and perhaps my impression will improve.

And having listened to that second CD (numbers 85-87)--a somewhat better impression, but not enough. I can't point to anything he brings to the table that other conductors don't. But perhaps the fact that these recordings were done relatively early in his Haydn project is of relevance.

I'll leave Fey in abeyance for now. I'm only up to CD 15 of the DRD/Stuttgart cycle and beyond that the whole of the Fischer/AustroHungarian is calling my name; with them and the Goodman series and the Hogwood box it's not as if I'm exactly lacking in Haydn (not to mention Pinnock's Strum and Drang box, a segment of the Dorati cycle, Solti's and Minkowski's Londons, and various smaller chunks by various conductors)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on January 21, 2014, 10:28:55 AM

Michael Greenhalgh has made Hobbit Vol. 21 (symphonies 99, 100) a MusicWeb recording of the month and written an uncommonly perceptive (http://musicweb-international.com/classrev/2014/Jan14/Haydn_sys_CD98014.htm) essay. The opener is wonderful: "Haydn still tends to be regarded as a genial sidekick of Mozart, a Dr Watson to Mozart's Sherlock Holmes."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 21, 2014, 10:30:48 AM

Quote from: Brian on January 21, 2014, 10:28:55 AM
Michael Greenhalgh has made Hobbit Vol. 21 (symphonies 99, 100) a MusicWeb recording of the month and written an uncommonly perceptive (http://musicweb-international.com/classrev/2014/Jan14/Haydn_sys_CD98014.htm) essay. The opener is wonderful: "Haydn still tends to be regarded as a genial sidekick of Mozart, a Dr Watson to Mozart's Sherlock Holmes."

Whereas in fact he was Mycroft to Mozart's Sherlock.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 21, 2014, 10:31:37 AM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on January 19, 2014, 06:20:00 PM
Well, I'm not sure I'd say the Classical suffers as much as that! ;) I've heard it aplenty on my local classical FM station (it's a hot ticket item...no surprise) and I've found it to be quite well done.

But, if your local cl. FM stn is anything like our local cl. FM stn, they play the one version of the piece they've fixed on. And they've found one which doesn't make the piece sound out of breath ;)

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on January 19, 2014, 06:20:00 PM
In fact, Prokofiev with too much velvet turns me off. So in the battle of the hypotheticals I'd probably not be too keen on Ozawa.

Give it a try. His Classical is energetic; the energy is efficient, is all.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 21, 2014, 11:29:23 AM

Quote from: Brian on January 21, 2014, 10:28:55 AM
Michael Greenhalgh has made Hobbit Vol. 21 (symphonies 99, 100) a MusicWeb recording of the month and written an uncommonly perceptive (http://musicweb-international.com/classrev/2014/Jan14/Haydn_sys_CD98014.htm) essay.

Thanks for the link, Brian. Nice to see Vol.21 honored as Recording of the Month. It's one of my favorites of the Hobbit's cycle and contains, I think, the best performances of any of the Londons he's recorded so far (96, 98, 101 and 103 are still to come).

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 21, 2014, 01:24:42 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 21, 2014, 11:29:23 AM
Thanks for the link, Brian. Nice to see Vol.21 honored as Recording of the Month. It's one of my favorites of the Hobbit's cycle and contains, I think, the best performances of any of the Londons he's recorded so far (96, 98, 101 and 103 are still to come).

Sarge

I can't wait to hear what the Hobbit does with No.98's Adagio.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 23, 2014, 06:43:39 PM

While I know that certain genres are less popular than others, no matter the composer, I just now published a brief essay on a mass and an opera. I felt no sense of obligation towards having to 'touch all the bases', these are both works I quite enjoy, and I hope you will too. Please have a look, if you are so inclined. :)

Missa Cellensis & La Cantarina (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/01/1766-the-music-part-3-puzzles-and-more.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 23, 2014, 06:49:24 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 23, 2014, 06:43:39 PM
While I know that certain genres are less popular than others, no matter the composer, I just now published a brief essay on a mass and an opera. I felt no sense of obligation towards having to 'touch all the bases', these are both works I quite enjoy, and I hope you will too. Please have a look, if you are so inclined. :)

Missa Cellensis & La Cantarina (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/01/1766-the-music-part-3-puzzles-and-more.html)

Thanks!
8)

I have nine of his operas, but not that one. But I think it's going to have to wait. Still, on the wishlist it goes.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 23, 2014, 06:51:30 PM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 23, 2014, 06:49:24 PM
I have nine of his operas, but not that one. But I think it's going to have to wait. Still, on the wishlist it goes.

That's the only recording I know of it. Fortunately it is a very nice performance. It is still generally available for a reasonable price, so the wishlist serves you well here (for a while, at least). :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 25, 2014, 05:28:48 PM

I thank those several who read the previous essay, I know masses and operas aren't everyone's cuppa... 0:) I am rather pleased to discover rather later in my life that these genres have grown to fall more softly on my ear than in years past. :)

1767, as it turns out, was a moderately busy year for Haydn. We'll get to the music shortly, but I thought you might like to read a short bit about the context. Here it is, if you please.

---1767--- (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/01/1767-a-peek-out-at-the-world.html)

Thanks for your interest. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Justin on January 25, 2014, 06:07:02 PM

Good evening Gurn,

Do you have any thoughts on the flute concerto listed on that Cantarina disc? Is that just an incorrect attribution of some sort?

Thanks!

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 23, 2014, 06:43:39 PM

While I know that certain genres are less popular than others, no matter the composer, I just now published a brief essay on a mass and an opera. I felt no sense of obligation towards having to 'touch all the bases', these are both works I quite enjoy, and I hope you will too. Please have a look, if you are so inclined. :)

Missa Cellensis & La Cantarina (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/01/1766-the-music-part-3-puzzles-and-more.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 25, 2014, 06:38:01 PM

Quote from: Justin on January 25, 2014, 06:07:02 PM
Good evening Gurn,

Do you have any thoughts on the flute concerto listed on that Cantarina disc? Is that just an incorrect attribution of some sort?

Thanks!

Hi, Justin,

Oh, without a doubt it is the same work that we know to have been composed by Hoffman and attributed to Haydn forever. It's funny/sad/irritating to me that music publishers today have no more moral fiber than they did 250 years ago, since they know very well it isn't by Haydn, but this is at least the third recording I have which says it is (on the cover) strictly for sales purposes. *sigh*. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 26, 2014, 09:10:51 AM

There aren't just a whole lot of Haydn's operas produced on DVD (or anyhow else, for that matter), and so when I saw this Harnoncourt production with Concentus Musicus Wien from the Theater an der Wien, it went on the wish list. Finally picked it up today, I will be back with some idea of it soon. :)

[asin] B00408MS9O[/asin]

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 26, 2014, 12:38:10 PM

Cool!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 26, 2014, 12:40:42 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 26, 2014, 12:38:10 PM
Cool!

I'm hoping the modern setting doesn't put me off. I am rather ambivalent about that usually, although I saw Gardiner doing a Magic Flute that was modern as could be in appearance. You can never tell. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 26, 2014, 02:23:20 PM

I know that some of you are as avid as I am when it comes to reading about our varied interests. When I was trying to assemble a library on Haydn, it was quite difficult to find a description of books I was curious about. Sometimes Amazon helped, often they didn't. So I have been slowly piecing together a couple of pages on some books, and I just finished one today, if you are interested.

Library 2 - Anthologies (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/building-a-library-part-2-anthologies.html)

Thanks for your continued interest. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 29, 2014, 05:56:51 AM

I am still in high-energy concert preparation (and Maria-Bablyak-artwork-exhibition support) mode, but I had to say what a delight The Creation is! It is improving the quality of my work day this frosty morning in Boston. Proud, too, of our local boys (listening to Marty Pearlman and the Boston Baroque).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 29, 2014, 07:36:28 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on January 29, 2014, 07:24:05 AM
I have been listening the past couple of weeks to the Mosaiques string quartet box, in reverse order just because that's how I left them in the box after ripping them. Today I have made it up to the disc with the Seven Last Words. What an amazing piece and performance. The string quartet version is far and away my favorite iteration of this work, but in any form, it is a winner.

:)

Yep, that IS a fine box. Hard to beat it, pity it isn't more complete. :(

As for the 7LW, I also like the SQ version, but IMO it just can't stand up to the original orchestral version which is heart-rending in places. The emotional depth can't be matched by the SQ or keyboard versions, which is not to say they don't have their own merits. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 29, 2014, 07:42:30 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on January 29, 2014, 07:40:21 AM
When you say "original orchestral version" are you insisting on the narrated sections? Those are a deal-breaker for me. But I know there is an easy work-around. I should give the orchestral version a listen after I finish with the SQ.

I ripped that disk as soon as I got it (Savall, that is) and since those tracks were separate, I simply skipped them over. Not that they are inappropriate, but for general listening I don't need them. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 01, 2014, 10:39:05 AM

Viz. this (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21492.msg774490.html#msg774490) . . . forgive me, O Gurn, if you've covered this ere now and I was inattentive. But why is the Op.51 for SQ H.III/50-56, when it is nine numbers? Did Hoboken just consider the introduction as belong to the first Sonata, and the earthquake as a coda to the seventh? What was he thinking? . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 01, 2014, 11:16:15 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 01, 2014, 10:39:05 AM
Viz. this (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21492.msg774490.html#msg774490) . . . forgive me, O Gurn, if you've covered this ere now and I was inattentive. But why is the Op.51 for SQ H.III/50-56, when it is nine numbers? Did Hoboken just consider the introduction as belong to the first Sonata, and the earthquake as a coda to the seventh? What was he thinking? . . .

Good question, Karl! Although I'm not sure anyone can figure what Hoboken was thinking much of the time. I am quite sure your latter surmise is the correct one (since it is the same as mine), only the seven sonatas were numbered. Everything else is considered adjunct. Here's one for you: Hoboken created a special category just for versions of the Seven Last Words (Hob XX), and yet he placed the SQ version in Hob III. What was he thinking? :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 01, 2014, 11:19:09 AM

I am particularly pleased with this latest installment, as it allowed me an opportunity to confront Saint-Foix on Stürm und Dräng. I hope I didn't lose... :)

Symphonies of 1767 (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/02/1767-the-music-part-1-on-the-cusp-of-drama.html)

Check it out if you would do.

Thanks,
Gurn 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 01, 2014, 06:43:46 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 01, 2014, 11:19:09 AM
I am particularly pleased with this latest installment, as it allowed me an opportunity to confront Saint-Foix on Stürm und Dräng. I hope I didn't lose... :)

Symphonies of 1767 (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/02/1767-the-music-part-1-on-the-cusp-of-drama.html)

Check it out if you would do.

Thanks,
Gurn 8)

Excellent read! Thanks, Gurn. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 01, 2014, 07:00:05 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 01, 2014, 06:43:46 PM
Excellent read! Thanks, Gurn. :)

Delighted you enjoyed it, Greg. I learned a lot writing it, everything else is a bonus. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on February 04, 2014, 09:16:11 AM

New '7 Words' by the Xenakis Quartet! And yes, I wouldn't know that otherwise, haha!! I iiiiiiiiiimagine it won't have A.N.Y. vibrato, hahaha!! See?, Xenakis was good for the HIP!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on February 04, 2014, 09:20:10 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 01, 2014, 11:19:09 AM
I am particularly pleased with this latest installment, as it allowed me an opportunity to confront Saint-Foix on Stürm und Dräng. I hope I didn't lose... :)

Symphonies of 1767 (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/02/1767-the-music-part-1-on-the-cusp-of-drama.html)

I've been listening to 38, 58, and 35 the past few days. Mostly Fischer for 35, which is particularly delightful.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 04, 2014, 09:23:27 AM

Quote from: Daverz on February 04, 2014, 09:20:10 AM
I've been listening to 38, 58, and 35 the past few days. Mostly Fischer for 35, which is particularly delightful.

Cool! I listened to it this AM on the way to work, in fact. I like Fischer in the earlier works especially. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 04, 2014, 10:07:05 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on February 04, 2014, 09:16:11 AM
New '7 Words' by the Xenakis Quartet! And yes, I wouldn't know that otherwise, haha!! I iiiiiiiiiimagine it won't have A.N.Y. vibrato, hahaha!! See?, Xenakis was good for the HIP!

That must be quite a performance! I haven't ever heard them play; gut strings?

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnSikh_zps894baa03.jpg)

Haydn: Sikh

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 06, 2014, 01:38:17 PM

On the theme of "what was Hoboken thinking", I've heard that he knew that the traditional numbering of the symphonies was wrong (especially the early ones), but chose not to change the numbers, because he thought it would cause too much confusion.

Anyway, I collected the Naxos symphonies disks when they came out and I liked them, but I've just ordered the Briliant Classics complete symphonies* (originally Nimbus). I'd like to listen to them in the correct order but the list of real numbers I have is quite approximate as I compiled it myself from Robbins Landon, and I want check against another list. Can someone point me in the direction of one.

Thanks

* I don't think this includes Symphonies A & B :-(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on February 06, 2014, 02:37:07 PM

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on February 06, 2014, 01:38:17 PMI'd like to listen to them in the correct order but the list of real numbers I have is quite approximate as I compiled it myself from Robbins Landon, and I want check against another list. Can someone point me in the direction of one.

see attachment

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 06, 2014, 03:59:27 PM

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on February 06, 2014, 01:38:17 PM
On the theme of "what was Hoboken thinking", I've heard that he knew that the traditional numbering of the symphonies was wrong (especially the early ones), but chose not to change the numbers, because he thought it would cause too much confusion.

Anyway, I collected the Naxos symphonies disks when they came out and I liked them, but I've just ordered the Briliant Classics complete symphonies* (originally Nimbus). I'd like to listen to them in the correct order but the list of real numbers I have is quite approximate as I compiled it myself from Robbins Landon, and I want check against another list. Can someone point me in the direction of one.

Thanks

* I don't think this includes Symphonies A & B :-(

His logic was flawed; the world (that cared about such things) was waiting with bated breath for a more correct listing, and if he actually knew a better one, that point in time when the world that cared was a fraction of what it is now, would have been perfect for doing it right. Landon tried to do, and only shortly thereafter, but Hoboken had already written it in stone and Landon failed, outside of musicologists.

Fischer does indeed include A & B...

Brian's list is good as far as it goes, however it does not include the current de facto standard, what I call the 'New Chronology', meticulously worked out by Sonia Gerlach. If you want that info, it is here. I invite you to read my blog (linked in my sig) which has some up-to-date info on the symphonies to 1767, if you are interested. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 06, 2014, 06:33:22 PM

Thanks very much Brian and Gurn, I will download those documents when I get home!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 07, 2014, 07:39:41 AM

Probably the one genre that is somewhat lacking in my collection is lieder, how's this one to the Haus's ears?
I see it listed at good prices.

[asin]B00D1HV864[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 07, 2014, 08:17:14 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 07, 2014, 07:39:41 AM
Probably the one genre that is somewhat lacking in my collection is lieder, how's this one to the Haus's ears?
I see it listed at good prices.

[asin]B00D1HV864[/asin]

I don't have that one yet, but I looked at it and can't imagine it is less than excellent. Augér has a beautiful voice and is an experienced Haydn performer (she is in some of the Dorati operas, for example, and at least one other disk). The selection of songs is nice, mainly from the first (and more interesting) set of German songs, with half a dozen English Canzonettas thrown in for good measure.

If you prefer to have a period keyboard, this other Brilliant with Emma Kirkby and Marcia Hadjimarkos is one I can vouch for. It is nearly all Canzonettas, along with a couple of other English tunes. At the price, I would get both of them. :)

[asin]B004JWWSUA[/asin]

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 07, 2014, 08:34:44 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 07, 2014, 08:17:14 AM
I don't have that one yet, but I looked at it and can't imagine it is less than excellent. Augér has a beautiful voice and is an experienced Haydn performer (she is in some of the Dorati operas, for example, and at least one other disk). The selection of songs is nice, mainly from the first (and more interesting) set of German songs, with half a dozen English Canzonettas thrown in for good measure.

If you prefer to have a period keyboard, this other Brilliant with Emma Kirkby and Marcia Hadjimarkos is one I can vouch for. It is nearly all Canzonettas, along with a couple of other English tunes. At the price, I would get both of them. :)

[asin]B004JWWSUA[/asin]

8)

Both are $6.99 at Arkivmusic, I would say it's worth it indeed. Thanks for the info, Gurn. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 08, 2014, 05:59:56 AM

I'm not familiar with this ensemble, but here is a future release of Haydn's The Seven Last Words for string quartet. I currently have Emerson, Rosamunde and Mosaiques for quartet versions, but am always interested in hearing others. Amazon has it listed for a March 11 release date.

[asin]B00H287OEI[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 08, 2014, 06:23:27 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 08, 2014, 05:59:56 AM
I'm not familiar with this ensemble, but here is a future release of Haydn's The Seven Last Words for string quartet. I currently have Emerson, Rosamunde and Mosaiques for quartet versions, but am always interested in hearing others. Amazon has it listed for a March 11 release date.

[asin]B00H287OEI[/asin]

Cuarteto Casals is a very fine modern instrument quartet. I have one of their early disks, the quartets of Arriaga and they played with great Je ne sais quoi..., they were in touch with the music, eh? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on February 08, 2014, 06:24:46 AM

Peter Watchorn likes them, too (http://www.amazon.com/review/R2NDZ0QHGWWESB/ref=cm_cr_dp_title?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B007X98RR4&channel=detail-glance&nodeID=5174&store=music)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on February 08, 2014, 07:34:35 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 08, 2014, 05:59:56 AM
I'm not familiar with this ensemble, but here is a future release of Haydn's The Seven Last Words for string quartet. I currently have Emerson, Rosamunde and Mosaiques for quartet versions, but am always interested in hearing others. Amazon has it listed for a March 11 release date.

[asin]B00H287OEI[/asin]

You don't associate Cuarteto Casals with slow movements, certainly not eight on the trot, they are often slightly manic, so that could be quite an unusual performance of a piece of music which IMO doesn't often come off well in SQ accounts when played in a conventional way. If you don't know their op 33 you're missing something, same for their Brahms and Schubert and Bartok.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 08, 2014, 11:34:09 AM

Every time I look into some of the lesser known works, I find something worth coming back to over and over. In working on 1767, as always the symphonies have pride of place, but this time I went after other things, like the Horn Trio and an iffy keyboard trio. I hope the results are interesting to you, too, and that you will be able to listen to the music.

Some unusual little chamber works (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/02/1767-the-music-part-2-variations-on-a-genre.html)

Please have a read if it pleases you, and feel free to discuss here. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Justin on February 09, 2014, 08:46:24 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 08, 2014, 11:34:09 AM
Every time I look into some of the lesser known works, I find something worth coming back to over and over. In working on 1767, as always the symphonies have pride of place, but this time I went after other things, like the Horn Trio and an iffy keyboard trio. I hope the results are interesting to you, too, and that you will be able to listen to the music.

Some unusual little chamber works (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/02/1767-the-music-part-2-variations-on-a-genre.html)

Please have a read if it pleases you, and feel free to discuss here. :)

8)

Aww geez, now I will probably have to buy that Natural Horn CD! My explorations of Baryton Trios from the Haydn Edition box have been quite enjoyable so far. Thanks for sharing your informative post!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 10, 2014, 04:22:39 AM

Quote from: Justin on February 09, 2014, 08:46:24 PM

Aww geez, now I will probably have to buy that Natural Horn CD! My explorations of Baryton Trios from the Haydn Edition box have been quite enjoyable so far. Thanks for sharing your informative post!

You are most welcome. And if it's any consolation, you will really enjoy that natural horn disk, it is chock full of interesting stuff, much of it quite rare. I'm pleased you liked the baryton disks, I think they are just the thing for people looking for 'new music'. >:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 10, 2014, 02:16:42 PM

Quote from: Justin on February 09, 2014, 08:46:24 PM

Aww geez, now I will probably have to buy that Natural Horn CD! My explorations of Baryton Trios from the Haydn Edition box have been quite enjoyable so far. Thanks for sharing your informative post!

I agree that the Natural Horn CD is totally worth it, incredible music.

And again, well done, Gurn. Thank you for the great read.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 10, 2014, 03:52:10 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 10, 2014, 02:16:42 PM
I agree that the Natural Horn CD is totally worth it, incredible music.

And again, well done, Gurn. Thank you for the great read.

Thanks for reading, Greg. I sure appreciate it. FWIW, I enjoyed that essay too, writing and reading. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 15, 2014, 08:40:13 AM

Well, I finished up 1767, I think this final essay shows nicely the scale of the different sizes of musical groups which Haydn composed for. If you are interested, please have a look.

End of 1767, the Stabat Mater (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/02/1767-the-music-part-3-big-work-little-works.html)

Thanks for your interest. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 16, 2014, 11:23:37 AM

OK, I couldn't lure you in with the Stabat Mater, guess I'll have to push forward to 1768 then! :D This turns out to be a great year for music, and also from an historic POV for Haydn himself. It was quite eventful, as I hope you will agree after reading my latest essay.

The year the house burned down (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/02/1768-well-yes-but-then-the-house-burned-down.html)

Thanks for checking it out, always available to discuss. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2014, 09:14:11 AM

Oh, these are sad times im Haus, I had to go to page 2 to find the front door... :'(

Anyway, this next essay, based on the symphonies of 1768, took a lot of research and thinking. Being a slow thinker, it took a while to get it out here, but I hope you will find it interesting.

The symphonies of 1768 (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/02/1768-the-music-part-3-the-dramatic-era-takes-flight.html)

Have a look if you are of a mind.

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 25, 2014, 04:56:15 PM

Of course, symphonies are the attention-getters, but there is plenty of other music from 1768, enough to satisfy many tastes. I took a short look at some of it here, perhaps you will like to have a look.

Some Hausmusik (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/02/1768-the-music-part-2-.html)

Always pleased to discuss!

Thanks,
Gurn 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 25, 2014, 05:27:57 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2014, 09:14:11 AM
Oh, these are sad times im Haus, I had to go to page 2 to find the front door... :'(

Anyway, this next essay, based on the symphonies of 1768, took a lot of research and thinking. Being a slow thinker, it took a while to get it out here, but I hope you will find it interesting.

The symphonies of 1768 (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/02/1768-the-music-part-3-the-dramatic-era-takes-flight.html)

Have a look if you are of a mind.

Thanks,
8)

Great recording recs, and an interesting take on No.49, Gurn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 25, 2014, 05:45:12 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 25, 2014, 05:27:57 PM
Great recording recs, and an interesting take on No.49, Gurn.

Thanks, Greg. I feel like David, taking on the Goliath that is Stürm und Dräng! But #49 is one of my favorite symphonies, and I feel it can have different affekts depending on the listener's state of mind. I ike having my thought process turned around from time to time! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 25, 2014, 05:58:56 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 25, 2014, 05:45:12 PM
Thanks, Greg. I feel like David, taking on the Goliath that is Stürm und Dräng! But #49 is one of my favorite symphonies, and I feel it can have different affekts depending on the listener's state of mind. I ike having my thought process turned around from time to time! :)

8)

You're right about the affekts, not every listen to No.49 results in the same conclusions for me. And I'm convinced that the only title that really works for Haydn symphonies is Hornsignal, because well there's a lot 'em ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 27, 2014, 02:50:04 PM

Oh Dear!

I'm not enjoying listening to the complete Haydn symphonies in (true) chronological order in the performances by the Austro-Hungarian Chmaber orchestra on Nimbus (=Brillant) as much as I thought I would. :(

I enjoyed listening more to the various groups that performed the symphonies in the Naxos complete series, they seemed to have more zing about their performances.

I'm up to the mid twenties now, so I suppose I have to hope that this series will improve.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2014, 03:59:24 PM

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on February 27, 2014, 02:50:04 PM
Oh Dear!

I'm not enjoying listening to the complete Haydn symphonies in (true) chronological order in the performances by the Austro-Hungarian Chmaber orchestra on Nimbus (=Brillant) as much as I thought I would. :(

I enjoyed listening more to the various groups that performed the symphonies in the Naxos complete series, they seemed to have more zing about their performances.

I'm up to the mid twenties now, so I suppose I have to hope that this series will improve.

Well, there is no way to predict what someone else will enjoy/not enjoy, sad to say. I thought the Naxos disks had a lot of merit too, FWIW. It is hard to know what someone's commitment is to a certain style or instrument type either. For the early symphonies I prefer Goodman on period instruments, but Sarge strongly dislikes them. You might go either way, or just be, like 'meh!'. Certainly I would move ahead. You may find that works from a particular point in time are far more appealing. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on February 27, 2014, 04:18:33 PM

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on February 27, 2014, 02:50:04 PM
Oh Dear!

I'm not enjoying listening to the complete Haydn symphonies in (true) chronological order in the performances by the Austro-Hungarian Chmaber orchestra on Nimbus (=Brillant) as much as I thought I would. :(

I enjoyed listening more to the various groups that performed the symphonies in the Naxos complete series, they seemed to have more zing about their performances.

I'm up to the mid twenties now, so I suppose I have to hope that this series will improve.

The cure for all your Haydn woes

[asin]B009LNI0T0[/asin]

The incomplete, because smaller dose, cure

[asin]B001U0HB60[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2014, 04:24:36 PM

Quote from: Ken B on February 27, 2014, 04:18:33 PM
The cure for all your Haydn woes

[asin]B009LNI0T0[/asin]

Sure, until he gets up to #76 - 93 and he's like 'what the hell happened to those disks? They're gone!' :D It's a great set though, highly recommended. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on February 27, 2014, 04:28:11 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2014, 04:24:36 PM
Sure, until he gets up to #76 - 93 and he's like 'what the hell happened to those disks? They're gone!' :D It's a great set though, highly recommended. :)

8)

Kuijken and Weil bridge part of it. I counted once and figured I was SOL for about 8 symphonies. That's what Vanhal is for. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2014, 04:31:03 PM

Quote from: Ken B on February 27, 2014, 04:28:11 PM
Kuijken and Weil bridge part of it. I counted once and figured I was SOL for about 8 symphonies. That's what Vanhal is for. :)

Assuming you are talking about PI recordings, what ones are you lacking? The only 2 never recorded are 79 & 81. :(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on February 27, 2014, 04:35:40 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2014, 04:31:03 PM
Assuming you are talking about PI recordings, what ones are you lacking? The only 2 never recorded are 79 & 81. :(

8)

Yes, from my cobbled together collections, the stuff on Virgin, these two boxes. I am missing some Londons HIP too now I think of it, but that,s just laziness on my part.
I have the Fischer, and liked it but never loved it. I love love love the Hogwood. I love the Weil and Kuijken. I liked the Pinnock a lot.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2014, 04:44:48 PM

Quote from: Ken B on February 27, 2014, 04:35:40 PM
Yes, from my cobbled together collections, the stuff on Virgin, these two boxes. I am missing some Londons HIP too now I think of it, but that's just laziness on my part.
I have the Fischer, and liked it but never loved it. I love love love the Hogwood. I love the Weil and Kuijken. I liked the Pinnock a lot.

The Kuijken London box is wonderful. Well worth the $50. I rec it ahead of Brüggen & Minkowski. Lazy? Well, I collected it one disk at a time, which I would have not done if this box had been just $50 back then! :D

[asin] B000EBDCUA[/asin]

Assuming the 'stuff on Virgin' is this:

[asin] B00000J2PW[/asin]

Yes, well worth the purchase.

If you want #80, this is the only (and fortunately very fine) version in town:

[asin]B002AHJTE4[/asin]

What 'Paris Symphonies' do you have?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2014, 04:48:17 PM

Quote from: Ken B on February 27, 2014, 04:35:40 PM
Yes, from my cobbled together collections, the stuff on Virgin, these two boxes. I am missing some Londons HIP too now I think of it, but that,s just laziness on my part.
I have the Fischer, and liked it but never loved it. I love love love the Hogwood. I love the Weil and Kuijken. I liked the Pinnock a lot.

Ah, I overlooked that. You have the Weil Paris set. Bueno. The others I usually recommend are these Harnoncourt's:

[asin]B0007OP69E[/asin]

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on February 27, 2014, 04:50:01 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2014, 04:44:48 PM
The Kuijken London box is wonderful. Well worth the $50. I rec it ahead of Brüggen & Minkowski. Lazy? Well, I collected it one disk at a time, which I would have not done if this box had been just $50 back then! :D

[asin] B000EBDCUA[/asin]

Assuming the 'stuff on Virgin' is this:

[asin] B00000J2PW[/asin]

Yes, well worth the purchase.

If you want #80, this is the only (and fortunately very fine) version in town:

[asin]B002AHJTE4[/asin]

What 'Paris Symphonies' do you have?

8)

The Virgin is that and two more duos. One of them is the Paris. Weil also has Paris.
I also have HvK and Fischer.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2014, 04:56:32 PM

Quote from: Ken B on February 27, 2014, 04:50:01 PM
The Virgin is that and two more duos. One of them is the Paris. Weil also has Paris.
I also have HvK and Fischer.

Yes, although I almost never rec the Kuijken Paris set. Different orchestra, lacks something indefinable but necessary. Money better spent going towards the Harnoncourt. As good as the Weil but different. They are my favorites, no doubt. :)

The other duo is this one;

[asin] B00004TQQS[/asin]

It has a very fine #26 in it, and a good sinfonia concertante too. Can't beat it at the price, Virgin is great that way!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on February 27, 2014, 04:59:19 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2014, 04:56:32 PM
Yes, although I almost never rec the Kuijken Paris set. Different orchestra, lacks something indefinable but necessary. Money better spent going towards the Harnoncourt. As good as the Weil but different. They are my favorites, no doubt. :)

The other duo is this one;

[asin] B00004TQQS[/asin]

It has a very fine #26 in it, and a good sinfonia concertante too. Can't beat it at the price, Virgin is great that way!

8)

Yes and Norrington 99 to 104 as well.
What think you of that?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2014, 05:03:07 PM

Quote from: Ken B on February 27, 2014, 04:59:19 PM
Yes and Norrington 99 to 104 as well.
What think you of that?

I like them, better than the same band playing Beethoven. Their #100 is in my selected playlist. There again, now that they've bundled them into one box, you can't go wrong. Even buying them as 3 separate disks they were a bargain! Don't get me wrong, I have met some Haydn recordings I didn't like, I just don't talk about them and hope the subject doesn't come up because I'm a positive sort of guy. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on February 27, 2014, 05:14:35 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2014, 05:03:07 PM
I like them, better than the same band playing Beethoven. Their #100 is in my selected playlist. There again, now that they've bundled them into one box, you can't go wrong. Even buying them as 3 separate disks they were a bargain! Don't get me wrong, I have met some Haydn recordings I didn't like, I just don't talk about them and hope the subject doesn't come up because I'm a positive sort of guy. :D

8)

I like them too, but they send the Hurwitzer over the edge.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2014, 05:16:34 PM

Quote from: Ken B on February 27, 2014, 05:14:35 PM
I like them too, but they send the Hurwitzer over the edge.

All the more reason to love them! He has no business reviewing period instrument recordings; he hates them on the face of it. He should stay with Rachmaninov... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on February 27, 2014, 05:19:06 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2014, 05:16:34 PM
All the more reason to love them! He has no business reviewing period instrument recordings; he hates them on the face of it. He should stay with Rachmaninov... :D

8)

Yup. Its like the gramophone penguin books reviewing Bach way back when. If they hated it I wanted it. If they called it pedantic I really wanted it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2014, 05:23:26 PM

Quote from: Ken B on February 27, 2014, 05:19:06 PM
Yup. Its like the gramophone penguin books reviewing Bach way back when. If they hated it I wanted it. If they called it pedantic I really wanted it.

:D I was fortunate enough to come to classical music (from jazz & classic rock) right at the time period instrument recordings were becoming available and so that is what I learned sound from. For Classical Era music (about all I listen to) it is the only thing that sounds right. Which is why Hurwitz pisses me off. So yeah, if he hates it, I gotta have it! >:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on February 27, 2014, 05:37:14 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2014, 05:23:26 PM
:D I was fortunate enough to come to classical music (from jazz & classic rock) right at the time period instrument recordings were becoming available and so that is what I learned sound from. For Classical Era music (about all I listen to) it is the only thing that sounds right. Which is why Hurwitz pisses me off. So yeah, if he hates it, I gotta have it! >:D

8)

I was in radio late 70s. I did a program each week "Bach as Written". The station library had little of that, so I used my own mostly.
I'm unsure about recommending HIP Mozart concertos to newcomers. I grew up on Anda etc. On the other hand I warn people off early music from before Pro Cantione Antiqua, the first great renaissance vocal group. I recommend in fact avoiding any choir at all in that except professional em groups. So I'm not consistent.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2014, 05:48:28 PM

Quote from: Ken B on February 27, 2014, 05:37:14 PM
I was in radio late 70s. I did a program each week "Bach as Written". The station library had little of that, so I used my own mostly.
I'm unsure about recommending HIP Mozart concertos to newcomers. I grew up on Anda etc. On the other hand I warn people off early music from before Pro Cantione Antiqua, the first great renaissance vocal group. I recommend in fact avoiding any choir at all in that except professional em groups. So I'm not consistent.

Sounds very interesting, even for a non-Bachian. I am not a recommender, by nature. My regular group will be surprised that I went out on that limb with you, but I have read enough of your posts to know what you like. I have no hesitation suggesting Gardiner/Bilson for Mozart, I don't like the sound of a modern piano there so it is easy for me to ignore that group. I don't think imprinting with modern instruments will help much later on if one wants to try PI, since then you have to 'unlearn' the sound. This is the main complaint I see among all the anti-PI's, so it is best to sidestep it altogether. :)

The other big interest I have beyond Haydn & Mozart is 18th century Austrian sacred music. Say, 1730 to the death of Haydn. Lots of choral there, but a different style than early music has. If you have any interest in that topic, you might try this thread:

18th Century Austrian Masses (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,20620.0.html)

I have been working too much on my Haydn blog to be able to maintain this thread except from time to time. However, always delighted to chat with anyone interested in the topic. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on February 27, 2014, 06:05:05 PM

" a non-Bachian"
My eyes! My eyes! ???

I don't know any Austrian choral music of that period except Hummel and the two obvious ones. Hummel is a bit late for that though. I really like all the Bach offspring but especially CPE. I don,t suppose Cherubini counts. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on February 27, 2014, 06:29:02 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2014, 05:48:28 PM
I don't think imprinting with modern instruments will help much later on if one wants to try PI, since then you have to 'unlearn' the sound. This is the main complaint I see among all the anti-PI's, so it is best to sidestep it altogether. :)

An interesting thought, but not sure it is really true. I can only use myself as an example. You know I prefer MI, but I don't rule out PI and will even seek out good PI performances. I am open to good music regardless of who plays it and on what instruments. And I dont feel there is anything to unlearn. If you are stuck in a certain approach (regardless of where you fall) then perhaps you are right. I guess I am a mongrel really - I'll steal from both. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on February 27, 2014, 06:34:49 PM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 27, 2014, 06:29:02 PM
An interesting thought, but not sure it is really true. I can only use myself as an example. You know I prefer MI, but I don't rule out PI and will even seek out good PI performances. I am open to good music regardless of who plays it and on what instruments. And I dont feel there is anything to unlearn. If you are stuck in a certain approach (regardless of where you fall) then perhaps you are right. I guess I am a mongrel really - I'll steal from both. :)

For me it depends partly on era.
I can listen to classicla MI just fine. I really like a lot of Mozart piano concertos. With Baroque it's almost impossible except for piano. With renaissance I won't even give non specialists a chance.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2014, 07:05:12 PM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on February 27, 2014, 06:29:02 PM
An interesting thought, but not sure it is really true. I can only use myself as an example. You know I prefer MI, but I don't rule out PI and will even seek out good PI performances. I am open to good music regardless of who plays it and on what instruments. And I dont feel there is anything to unlearn. If you are stuck in a certain approach (regardless of where you fall) then perhaps you are right. I guess I am a mongrel really - I'll steal from both. :)

No, I mean the people who complain about the sound of PI, not everyone. It seems to be their main complaint, and it always seems to stem from comparisons with modern instruments which are stuck in their heads. I'm not throwing darts there, just collating past experiences.

Hurwitz wrote a review of a Haydn PI performance, I can probably find it again if I try. In any case, it relied a lot of the horns, and he said he liked the disk pretty much, except it would have just sounded so much better with modern horns. Really? If you parse that statement it pretty much sums things up. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2014, 07:07:22 PM

Quote from: Ken B on February 27, 2014, 06:34:49 PM
For me it depends partly on era.
I can listen to classicla MI just fine. I really like a lot of Mozart piano concertos. With Baroque it's almost impossible except for piano. With renaissance I won't even give non specialists a chance.

I am among those who can't deal with modern piano in anything older than the death of Schubert. I don't have any expectation that others would agree with me, but I listen by myself, mainly, so it doesn't matter! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on February 27, 2014, 07:15:04 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2014, 07:07:22 PM
I am among those who can't deal with modern piano in anything older than the death of Schubert. I don't have any expectation that others would agree with me, but I listen by myself, mainly, so it doesn't matter! :)

8)

Alas Brendel never played Schubert on a fortepiano. Brautigam transformed my view of Haydn. Had never thought much of the piano music before that. Always loved the quartets and trios.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on February 27, 2014, 07:52:36 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2014, 07:05:12 PM
I can probably find it again if I try.

Please don't. I think the best thing to do is just ignore him. Aside from his obnoxious rants against PI, his website has some (unattributed) reviews that are suspiciously similar to Gramophone's or BBC Music's. Page hits mean ad money, and I discourage everyone from performing that service for him.

On a more positive note, y'all have nearly talked me into the Tafelmusik set. I have Kuijken's Paris symphonies, and even without a reference I tend to agree that they're missing something. I generally like Tafelmusik, so... hold on a second... did you hear that clicking sound? ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on February 27, 2014, 08:20:25 PM

Quote from: Pat B on February 27, 2014, 07:52:36 PM
Please don't. I think the best thing to do is just ignore him. Aside from his obnoxious rants against PI, his website has some (unattributed) reviews that are suspiciously similar to Gramophone's or BBC Music's. Page hits mean ad money, and I discourage everyone from performing that service for him.

On a more positive note, y'all have nearly talked me into the Tafelmusik set. I have Kuijken's Paris symphonies, and even without a reference I tend to agree that they're missing something. I generally like Tafelmusik, so... hold on a second... did you hear that clicking sound? ;)

Buying Canadian is never a mistake.

OK, there's Celine Dion.
OK, there's Justine Bieber.
OK, there's Rob Ford.
But ...

The Aradia Ensemble is the other HIP orchestra in Toronto. They did a bunch of the Haydn on Naxos.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 28, 2014, 04:17:29 AM

Quote from: Ken B on February 27, 2014, 08:20:25 PM
Buying Canadian is never a mistake.

OK, there's Celine Dion.
OK, there's Justine Bieber.
OK, there's Rob Ford.
But ...

The Aradia Ensemble is the other HIP orchestra in Toronto. They did a bunch of the Haydn on Naxos.

And one of my frequent suggested performances:

[asin]B001OBT3LG[/asin]

The Arion Baroque Orchestra from Montreal. :) In my latest symphony essay I rec this and Weil for #41, both with and without trumpets & timpani. 2 Canadian bands, go figure! 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 28, 2014, 05:14:46 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2014, 05:16:34 PM
All the more reason to love them! He has no business reviewing period instrument recordings; he hates them on the face of it. He should stay with Rachmaninov... :D

8)

That's not true, Gurn. Hurwitz does not hate period recordings: he hates what some conductors do with a period band in some recordings. He's enthusiastic when promoting PI CDs he likes. For example:

Beck symphonies on CPO. He wrote:

"The performances by La Stagione Franfurt, on period instruments, have all of the necessary bite and drama that the music requires. I still balk at the notion that period harpsichordists poked at those repeated-note bass lines in soft passages the way that modern players do, but otherwise Michael Schneider and his band seem well inside the idiom, and music itself is wonderful."

On Weil's Paris set:

"No sooner does Sony put all of Tafelmusik's Haydn in a box than the orchestra releases the Paris symphonies on its own label. I reviewed the box for "Insider" and gave the collection a "9″ based primarily on the quality of the earlier symphonies (plus a wonderful version of No. 88). These performances are also very good, but they were recorded before the outstanding period-instrument recordings of Harnoncourt[...]There's nothing really wrong here. In fact, there's a lot to enjoy; it's just that on period instruments, you can do better still."

He gave 10/10 to Harnoncourt's Paris set:

"I'm in Haydn heaven. This is the most remarkable set of "Paris" Symphonies since Bernstein's, and without question the new reference by which all others will be judged[...]the playing of the Concentus Musicus Wien is extraordinary."

On Pinnock's Nelson Mass:

"10/10 This must be one of the best recordings of classical period repertoire that Trevor Pinnock and The English Concert ever made. In the Nelson Mass, those grim trumpets in the opening Kyrie and Benedictus cut through the gaunt texture of strings and organ with a real sense of menace, but without crudeness. The period strings have enough body to balance the voices..."

Jacob's Haydn 91 & 92:

"10/10 René Jacobs turned in a sensational recording of Haydn's The Seasons for Harmonia Mundi last year, and now he's back with what I hope will mark the beginning of many forays into this composer's inexhaustibly entertaining output. I loved this disc[...]Jacobs and his crew go absolutely crazy in the "Oxford" Symphony, particularly its finale, taken faster than even the excellent Freiburgers can comfortably play it, and if some of the rhythmic definition and textural clarity fall by the wayside, well, who cares? Haydn's wig would have hit the floor if he could have heard it, that's for sure. This stunningly recorded disc is probably the closest you'll ever get to a front-row balcony seat in the Hanover Square Rooms more than two centuries ago. There's just got to be more where this came from. Please?"

I could go on, and on, but you get the point. Hurwitz loves some PI recordings, dislikes others. Don't we all?

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 28, 2014, 05:37:03 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 28, 2014, 05:14:46 AM
That's not true, Gurn. Hurwitz does not hate period recordings: he hates what some conductors do with a period band in some recordings. He's enthusiastic when promoting PI CDs he likes. For example:

---snip---

I could go on, and on, but you get the point. Hurwitz loves some PI recordings, dislikes others. Don't we all?

Sarge

It's just that his likes and dislikes are so predictable and so expansively stated, as though there is no middle ground, or that someone couldn't possibly enjoy it if he didn't. The sound or natural horns is like that. So is the sound that keyboard instruments make. It is inherent to the early fortepiano that the jacks make a noise. If you can't handle it, then you don't listen to it.

I just don't trust what he writes. It is easy to like the works that sound the most like modern instruments and say you like period instruments because you like those. It is far different to accept period instruments warts and all since that is what they actually sounded like. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on February 28, 2014, 05:40:54 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 28, 2014, 04:17:29 AM
And one of my frequent suggested performances:

[asin]B001OBT3LG[/asin]

The Arion Baroque Orchestra from Montreal. :) In my latest symphony essay I rec this and Weil for #41, both with and without trumpets & timpani. 2 Canadian bands, go figure! 0:)

8)

World domination is the plan. Did you see the olympics? First we take curling, then Berlin as another Canuck might say. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 28, 2014, 05:48:31 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 28, 2014, 05:37:03 AM
It is easy to like the works that sound the most like modern instruments and say you like period instruments because you like those.

You think the CMW, Tafelmusik, the English Concert and the Freiburger Barock sound like modern instruments? :o

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 28, 2014, 05:37:03 AM
"It is far different to accept period instruments warts and all since that is what they actually sounded like. :)"

Except we don't actually know what they sounded like. But I'll bite: if the orchestras Hurwitz praises don't sound like period bands, which do?

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 28, 2014, 06:54:59 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2014, 03:59:24 PMFor the early symphonies I prefer Goodman on period instruments, but Sarge strongly dislikes them.

Not true...although I understand how that misconception came about. I am very critical of, not only Goodman's use of the harpsichord, but also the way he uses it in many of his recordings. Nonetheless I have a sizeable collecton of Goodman's Haydn (45 symphonies plus the horn concerto) because I love the sound of the Hanover Band (except for his sometimes annoyingly loud keyboard continuo) and generally approve of Goodman's interpretations.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on February 28, 2014, 08:04:09 AM

Quote from: Ken B on February 27, 2014, 05:37:14 PM
I was in radio late 70s. I did a program each week "Bach as Written". The station library had little of that, so I used my own mostly.
I'm unsure about recommending HIP Mozart concertos to newcomers. I grew up on Anda etc. On the other hand I warn people off early music from before Pro Cantione Antiqua, the first great renaissance vocal group. I recommend in fact avoiding any choir at all in that except professional em groups. So I'm not consistent.

I wonder what you think of Studio der Frühen Musik, or Deller's first recording of Couperin's Leçons with Harry Gabb and Desmond Dupré.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on February 28, 2014, 08:17:10 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on February 28, 2014, 08:04:09 AM
I wonder what you think of Studio der Frühen Musik, or Deller's first recording of Couperin's Leçons with Harry Gabb and Desmond Dupré.

Never heard the Deller. Not sure HM was even available in Canada then. I cannot recall particular SFM stuff, but it rings troubador bells (?). I liked it if its what I am thinking of. I did have and play old Wenziger and Schola Cantorum Basiliensis. A random assortment, whatever I found and could afford.
The station had some Deller on Vanguard. I suspect it sounds pretty raw these days.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on February 28, 2014, 08:34:20 AM

Quote from: Ken B on February 28, 2014, 08:17:10 AM
Never heard the Deller. Not sure HM was even available in Canada then. I cannot recall particular SFM stuff, but it rings troubador bells (?). I liked it if its what I am thinking of. I did have and play old Wenziger and Schola Cantorum Basiliensis. A random assortment, whatever I found and could afford.
The station had some Deller on Vanguard. I suspect it sounds pretty raw these days.

The early Deller recordings I very much like, but how you respond to a voice is so personal I suppose. The later recordings, like the second Leçons de Ténèbres with Chapuis, I'm less keen on. The Studio der Frühen Musik Machault is well worth having IMO, as is the Du Fay and Carmina Burana. Though as with all voices, Andrea von Ramm has supporters and detractors.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on February 28, 2014, 09:20:54 AM

I just want to say that Haydn's Symphonies #6-8 are magnificent. That is all. 0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 28, 2014, 11:07:56 AM

Well, my comments on the Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra's set seem to have started off a bit of the thread.

Don't worry, I don't hate, they're perfectly competent and in places delightful, just overall they don't grab me. As well as all the Naxos symphonies I have ten or so odd disks, some on PI, mainly middle symphonies, so I do have some alternatives.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on February 28, 2014, 11:37:24 AM

Quote from: DavidW on February 28, 2014, 09:20:54 AM
I just want to say that Haydn's Symphonies #6-8 are magnificent. That is all. 0:)

They are but not late at night. Only morning, noon, and evening.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 01, 2014, 04:08:04 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 28, 2014, 06:54:59 AM
Not true...although I understand how that misconception came about. I am very critical of, not only Goodman's use of the harpsichord, but also the way he uses it in many of his recordings. Nonetheless I have a sizeable collecton of Goodman's Haydn (45 symphonies plus the horn concerto) because I love the sound of the Hanover Band (except for his sometimes annoyingly loud keyboard continuo) and generally approve of Goodman's interpretations.

Sarge

Sorry it took me a while to get back to you Sarge, I've been killer busy these days. :-\

Yes, well you can understand my confusion, clearly. I've been thinking about your reply here though, and it just seems to me like you want it both ways. If a certain feature of a band's performance has actually achieved some notoriety (which the heavy use of harpsichord continuo in these recordings certainly has!), it is hard for someone to say he really likes the performances except for that feature which he deplores but he listens to them anyway. It fails the logical good sense test. :) I think you secretly love Pinnock's continuo and only wish it were more clearly delineated. :P

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 28, 2014, 05:48:31 AM
You think the CMW, Tafelmusik, the English Concert and the Freiburger Barock sound like modern instruments? :o

Except we don't actually know what they sounded like. But I'll bite: if the orchestras Hurwitz praises don't sound like period bands, which do?

Sarge

No, not really, but it did get your attention. I think my primary PI-sounding band is the Academy of Ancient Music. I do think that many PI bands could be confused with some modern bands though, like the Orchestre Revolutionnaire of Gardiner (not the Baroque Soloists though!). And I do see even non-PI fans saying 'well, the ORR is good though' because they don't challenge the preconception of proper sound as much as an AAM or an La Stagione does. It is a much stronger effect in solo pianoforte though, where people tend to really like Brautigam's sound, and to me, his instrument has a very modern sound compared to, say, anything I've heard Schornsheim play. I'm not criticizing the players for this effect, I'm merely pointing out the fact it exists. It would be the rare newcomer who I would refer to John Khouri for introduction!! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 01, 2014, 05:32:51 PM

So once again I have been dabbling in history, this time in the lovely little gob of church music which Haydn produced in 1768. Two masses in the most divergent styles available, and a nice little choral piece to match. If you have a mind to, you can check it out here;

"Sunt bona mixta malis, sunt mala mixta bonis" (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/03/1768-the-music-part-3-.html)

Thanks for your interest, :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 02, 2014, 04:28:00 PM

For my own benefit, and which I share gladly with you, I have been researching the genre of cantatas called Applausus musici, the best known of which is, of course, by Haydn. If you would like to see what I found, have a look here.

Applausus musici (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/03/1768-the-music-part-4-all-hail.html)

Feel free to discuss, and thanks for reading. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 02, 2014, 04:49:22 PM

Thanks for keepin' 'er rolling, Gurn. I'll get reading soon!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 05, 2014, 09:26:50 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 02, 2014, 04:28:00 PM
For my own benefit, and which I share gladly with you, I have been researching the genre of cantatas called Applausus musici, the best known of which is, of course, by Haydn. If you would like to see what I found, have a look here.

Applausus musici (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/03/1768-the-music-part-4-all-hail.html)

Feel free to discuss, and thanks for reading. :)

8)

Now Haydn Seek has taught me smothering new! I applaud this applausus blog. ;D
Thanks, Gurn.

Quote from: karlhenning on March 02, 2014, 04:49:22 PM
Thanks for keepin' 'er rolling, Gurn.

+1
And for making this GMG's most resourceful composer thread!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 05, 2014, 10:01:41 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 05, 2014, 09:26:50 AM
Now Haydn Seek has taught me smothering new! I applaud this applausus blog. ;D
Thanks, Gurn.
+1
And for making this GMG's most resourceful composer thread!

Quote from: karlhenning on March 02, 2014, 04:49:22 PM
Thanks for keepin' 'er rolling, Gurn. I'll get reading soon!

Thank YOU guys for keeping me going. I am approaching 3000 views now on this blog, which is more than I thought I would see in the lifetime of the thing! It's nice to be able to provide information which I know first-hand is hard to find. :)

Cheers,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 05, 2014, 05:50:30 PM

And so 1768 was a big year. Lots of events, lots of music. We wrap up the year now with a look at the new opera house. One of the last pieces is now in place to make the move to the sticks worthwhile. :) Have a look if you wish.

The new opera house opens! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/03/1768-the-music-part-5-a-proper-opera-house.html)

Thanks for your interest,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 06, 2014, 02:21:03 AM

"Come for the fireweed, stay for the opera...."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 06, 2014, 04:17:06 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 06, 2014, 02:21:03 AM
"Come for the fireweed, stay for the opera...."

I have a feeling I should recognize that quote... isn't it posted outside of Sarge's apartment? :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on March 06, 2014, 08:23:27 AM

I started the day the right way with some of Haydn's Op 50 string quartets. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 06, 2014, 08:57:21 AM

Quote from: DavidW on March 06, 2014, 08:23:27 AM
I started the day the right way with some of Haydn's Op 50 string quartets. 8)

I would say so. :)
Which performances? The Op. 50 is an opus I only have one recording of.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on March 06, 2014, 09:42:51 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 06, 2014, 08:57:21 AM
I would say so. :)
Which performances? The Op. 50 is an opus I only have one recording of.

Angeles Quartet. I like them in everything, it is a great big box to have imo.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on March 06, 2014, 11:22:58 AM

Quote from: DavidW on March 06, 2014, 09:42:51 AM
Angeles Quartet. I like them in everything, it is a great big box to have imo.

Indeed. Even if it is Hurwitz's top pick. >:D
I recently got the Mosaigues box, which I like even more so far, but is nowhere near complete.
The one I could not stand was the Aeolian. Brrrrrr.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on March 08, 2014, 03:51:09 AM

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-1Yt6bfhfAB8/UwC1fJ09K_I/AAAAAAAAHcI/iur4c_N7fjo/s1600/WienerKonzerthaus_Magazin_Graphik.png)

Philippe Herreweghe on Haydn and why Making Records Makes Sense

(http://konzerthaus.at/magazin/Portals/0/blog_data/Magazine%202014/Herreweghe_Philippe_14_Feb14_560.jpg)
http://konzerthaus.at/magazin/Home/tabid/41/entryid/342/Philippe-Herreweghe-on-Haydn-and-why-Making-Records-Makes-Sense.aspx (http://konzerthaus.at/magazin/Home/tabid/41/entryid/342/Philippe-Herreweghe-on-Haydn-and-why-Making-Records-Makes-Sense.aspx)

FIXED

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 08, 2014, 05:01:55 AM

Jens, your links go to the Shostakovich article, not Haydn.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 08, 2014, 05:02:35 AM

Thanks, Jens. I bet that was interesting, too. :-\ . Guess I'll have to get Google T to work on it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 08, 2014, 05:27:34 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 08, 2014, 05:01:55 AM
Jens, your links go to the Shostakovich article, not Haydn.

Sarge

Even so, it was interesting. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on March 08, 2014, 06:31:40 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 08, 2014, 05:02:35 AM
Thanks, Jens. I bet that was interesting, too. :-\ . Guess I'll have to get Google T to work on it. :)

8)

I don't know what this post means. :(

Herreweghe is kind of right that Romantic era music is what sells, but I hear plenty of classical era, baroque and modern performed. Part of me wants to put a feather in my cap since he identifies Haydn fans as true music fans. Another part wants to chortle at the one true Scotsman fallacy at play.

DRD's quoted remark is hilarious since he boldly went where Dorati and Fischer already went. :laugh: And there is no complete PI cycle... keep tilting at windmills Dennis. 0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 08, 2014, 07:27:38 AM

Quote from: DavidW on March 08, 2014, 06:31:40 AM
I don't know what this post means. :(

I don't read German actually, so I have to Google T(ranslate) it. Later, when I did get it translated, it turned out to be an article on DSCH, as Sarge noted. No mystery there!

I like the hell out of Herreweghe, I would like to read the one that Jens mis-linked. I bet it was interesting. :)

8)

It isn't as much fun when you have to explain it ::)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 08, 2014, 07:50:10 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 08, 2014, 07:27:38 AM
I like the hell out of Herreweghe, I would like to read the one that Jens mis-linked. I bet it was interesting. :)

Here it is (http://konzerthaus.at/magazin/Home/tabid/41/entryid/342/Philippe-Herreweghe-on-Haydn-and-why-Making-Records-Makes-Sense.aspx)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 08, 2014, 08:00:41 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 08, 2014, 07:50:10 AM
Here it is (http://konzerthaus.at/magazin/Home/tabid/41/entryid/342/Philippe-Herreweghe-on-Haydn-and-why-Making-Records-Makes-Sense.aspx)

Sarge

Excellent, thank you kindly, Sarge. Always high in my esteem, PH has risen even higher. Very insightful commentary. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on March 08, 2014, 09:07:55 AM

Oh right. When I went to the site I just clicked on classical music and it came right up. I forgot that the link wasn't right.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 08, 2014, 05:38:52 PM

It took a while to work through the great collection of music from 1768. Lots there to listen to, no doubt. But now, as we move on to 1769 we have something new and exciting to look forward to; the string quartet returns! I am presenting, in my usual manner, a taste of life in 1769. If you are interested, please check it out.

The year the string quartet returned! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/03/1769-the-year.html)

Thanks for your interest.
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on March 08, 2014, 06:07:38 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 08, 2014, 08:00:41 AM
Excellent, thank you kindly, Sarge. Always high in my esteem, PH has risen even higher. Very insightful commentary. :)

8)

Dennis Russell Davies too!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 08, 2014, 06:19:02 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 08, 2014, 05:38:52 PM
It took a while to work through the great collection of music from 1768. Lots there to listen to, no doubt. But now, as we move on to 1769 we have something new and exciting to look forward to; the string quartet returns! I am presenting, in my usual manner, a taste of life in 1769. If you are interested, please check it out.

The year the string quartet returned! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/03/1769-the-year.html)

Thanks for your interest.
8)

I enjoyed this read. Thanks, Gurn.

Are the Baryton Trios the only pieces that Haydn used this instrument?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 08, 2014, 06:25:19 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 08, 2014, 06:19:02 PM
I enjoyed this read. Thanks, Gurn.

Are the Baryton Trios the only pieces that Haydn used this instrument?

Thanks, Greg. :)

Oh no, he wrote various duos for 2 barytons and for baryton & cello. Also, last year he wrote a really nice quintet for baryton, viola, cello & 2 horns. Then when we get to 1775, we will get to enjoy seven great octet/divertimentos for baryton and chamber group, his piece de resistance and adieu to the baryton (save for a few stray trios). Also, there were apparently quite a group of concertos for baryton, but alas, they are all lost! In total, there were probably ~175 works, so about 50 in addition to the trios. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 08, 2014, 06:38:56 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 08, 2014, 06:25:19 PM
Thanks, Greg. :)

Oh no, he wrote various duos for 2 barytons and for baryton & cello. Also, last year he wrote a really nice quintet for baryton, viola, cello & 2 horns. Then when we get to 1775, we will get to enjoy seven great octet/divertimentos for baryton and chamber group, his piece de resistance and adieu to the baryton (save for a few stray trios). Also, there were apparently quite a group of concertos for baryton, but alas, they are all lost! In total, there were probably ~175 works, so about 50 in addition to the trios. :)

8)

Ah, I forgot about the divertimenos. Any recs for recordings?

For Baryton, I only have THIS ONE (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Baryton-Divertimenti-Franz-Joseph/dp/B000001QBA/ref=sr_sp-atf_image_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1394336076&sr=1-2&keywords=haydn+baryton+trios) from Dorian, that I really enjoy.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 08, 2014, 07:17:04 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 08, 2014, 06:38:56 PM
Ah, I forgot about the divertimenos. Any recs for recordings?

For Baryton, I only have THIS ONE (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Baryton-Divertimenti-Franz-Joseph/dp/B000001QBA/ref=sr_sp-atf_image_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1394336076&sr=1-2&keywords=haydn+baryton+trios) from Dorian, that I really enjoy.

I think I have every baryton trios recording (AFAIK). This is my favorite:

[asin] B004V4GXZW[/asin]

The barytonist is a real virtuoso, plus I like the choice of works they made.

For the octets, also on Ricercar. This is the current iteration of the 2 disk set with all of them plus the quintet:

[asin]B0000632DN[/asin]

I like the Haydn Sinfonietta Wien's version on the 'Music for the Prince and the King of Naples' box set on BIS, and also the Esterházy Ensemble / Piccolo Concerto Wien versions on Brilliant, but the Ricercar set (the two single disks, really) remain my favorites. Imprinting, I suppose. :D

8)

Actually, that Dorian disk is a peach. Just sayin'.... :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 09, 2014, 12:49:46 PM

Just took in this piece of vinyl:

(http://store.acousticsounds.com/images/large/UDGR_LPM18823__81281__03122012010424-7165.jpg)

The 88 did not quite "get there" for me, but Jochum redeemed himself with the 98. Nice "pop" when expected. The vinyl lends a warmth to Haydn that I am guessing many may not care for. I am sure that going case by case would be a better attitude, but I believe I may start grabbing more of Papa on this format, as I like this sound. The chamber stuff should be fascinating.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 09, 2014, 03:25:42 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 08, 2014, 07:17:04 PM
I think I have every baryton trios recording (AFAIK). This is my favorite:

[asin] B004V4GXZW[/asin]

The barytonist is a real virtuoso, plus I like the choice of works they made.

For the octets, also on Ricercar. This is the current iteration of the 2 disk set with all of them plus the quintet:

[asin]B0000632DN[/asin]

I like the Haydn Sinfonietta Wien's version on the 'Music for the Prince and the King of Naples' box set on BIS, and also the Esterházy Ensemble / Piccolo Concerto Wien versions on Brilliant, but the Ricercar set (the two single disks, really) remain my favorites. Imprinting, I suppose. :D

8)

Actually, that Dorian disk is a peach. Just sayin'.... :)

Thank you, Gurn! It's much appreciated. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on March 09, 2014, 03:44:00 PM

Quote from: Bogey on March 09, 2014, 12:49:46 PM
Just took in this piece of vinyl:

(http://store.acousticsounds.com/images/large/UDGR_LPM18823__81281__03122012010424-7165.jpg)

The 88 did not quite "get there" for me, but Jochum redeemed himself with the 98. Nice "pop" when expected. The vinyl lends a warmth to Haydn that I am guessing many may not care for. I am sure that going case by case would be a better attitude, but I believe I may start grabbing more of Papa on this format, as I like this sound. The chamber stuff should be fascinating.

I like big band Haydn, but have neglected this Jochum set, which I have (partially) on Lp and CD rips. I'll have to rectify that. He also did some marvelous recordings of selected Londons with the Dresden Staatskapelle.

[asin]B000025U45[/asin]

(Link for information only. Not recommending you run out and buy it at those Marketplace prices.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on March 09, 2014, 03:45:38 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 08, 2014, 07:17:04 PM
I think I have every baryton trios recording (AFAIK). This is my favorite:

[asin] B004V4GXZW[/asin]

I don't have any baryton trios, so I had to buy this (from the Classical Superstore).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 09, 2014, 03:51:17 PM

Quote from: Daverz on March 09, 2014, 03:45:38 PM
I don't have any baryton trios, so I had to buy this (from the Classical Superstore).

Some of the best pieces in his run.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 09, 2014, 04:11:23 PM

Quote from: Daverz on March 09, 2014, 03:45:38 PM
I don't have any baryton trios, so I had to buy this (from the Classical Superstore).

I think you'll be pleased, Dave. I should say; if you don't like this disk, you probably won't like any of them! :)

Quote from: Bogey on March 09, 2014, 03:51:17 PM
Some of the best pieces in his run.

Yes, and the less commonly recorded ones too. Nice to not have yet another version of the Birthday Trio! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 09, 2014, 05:55:25 PM

Quote from: Bogey on March 09, 2014, 12:49:46 PM
Just took in this piece of vinyl:

(http://store.acousticsounds.com/images/large/UDGR_LPM18823__81281__03122012010424-7165.jpg)

The 88 did not quite "get there" for me, but Jochum redeemed himself with the 98. Nice "pop" when expected. The vinyl lends a warmth to Haydn that I am guessing many may not care for. I am sure that going case by case would be a better attitude, but I believe I may start grabbing more of Papa on this format, as I like this sound. The chamber stuff should be fascinating.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Ue1LYg9LL._SL500_AA300_.jpg)

Letting this lp have a crack at the above 98....smackdown is commencing as Klemperer seems to grab more from his orchestra and the range of sound is much more engaging. I enjoyed the Jochum, but I like what I am hearing here more so.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 09, 2014, 06:28:40 PM

The Klemperer Timings

Symphony No. 98
I. Adagio - Allegro 6:27
II. Adagio 7:49
III. Menuet (Allegro) and Trio   5:59
IV. Finale (Presto) 6:45

and now, on cd, my third 98 of the evening:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51Io3um1h5L._SY300_.jpg)

6:55
5:21
5:40
8:36

Similar to the Klemperer, but you can pick up what seems to be a keyboard component. Any help with this appreciated as the notes do not indicate this. Also, Solti's seems to move fastr, but the timings indicate otherwise. He kind of has that effect sometimes. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on March 09, 2014, 09:51:51 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 08, 2014, 07:17:04 PM
For the octets, also on Ricercar. This is the current iteration of the 2 disk set with all of them plus the quintet:

[asin]B0000632DN[/asin]

I like the Haydn Sinfonietta Wien's version on the 'Music for the Prince and the King of Naples' box set on BIS, and also the Esterházy Ensemble / Piccolo Concerto Wien versions on Brilliant, but the Ricercar set (the two single disks, really) remain my favorites. Imprinting, I suppose. :D

That Ricercar set of the octets was my 1st encounter with this repertoire, such a great set! :)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on March 10, 2014, 04:14:11 AM

Quote from: Bogey on March 09, 2014, 06:28:40 PM
Similar to the Klemperer, but you can pick up what seems to be a keyboard component. Any help with this appreciated as the notes do not indicate this. Also, Solti's seems to move fastr, but the timings indicate otherwise. He kind of has that effect sometimes. ;)

I don't have the recording to confirm or deny but it wouldn't surprise me. Most conductors feel that Haydn's symphonies have the need for a harpsichord continuo. Hogwood refuted the accepted tradition by saying it was not needed. While his argument is sound, the evidence either way is simply not there leaving it to be a mystery on whether continuo should be there nor not.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 10, 2014, 09:34:24 AM

Surprises me that Solti opted for and Hoggy passed.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 10, 2014, 09:46:11 AM

A couple of the DRD CDs have been regularly in the tray of our Corolla. I like 'em a lot.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 10, 2014, 10:22:59 AM

Quote from: Bogey on March 10, 2014, 09:34:24 AM
Surprises me that Solti opted for and Hoggy passed.

Well, Hogwood really thought he was being accurate, since James Webster, a real guru, told him so. The only problem there is that just like with symphony #48 which Webster told him to not use the trumpets and timpani because the parts were dodgy, that doesn't mean they didn't use T & T, it only means the parts didn't survive. It doesn't sound quite the same without.

As far as a harpsichord continuo goes, Webster's argument that there are no parts for figured bass also don't hold true. Especially if Haydn was the one playing the harpsichord; why would he need a written out part for his own composition? And he would have been the harpsichordist, because Tomasini was the first violin and concertmaster, so Haydn wouldn't have been playing violin, he would have been leading from the keyboard. As for when this practice stopped, well, who can say? I would guess your symphony #88 from 1786 probably didn't use one, but the London symphonies used a fortepiano because that's what they did in London, the continuo didn't really stop being used until after the turn of the century. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on March 10, 2014, 11:19:40 AM

Quote from: Bogey on March 10, 2014, 09:34:24 AM
Surprises me that Solti opted for and Hoggy passed.

Hogwood based his performing editions on scholarly research not available way back when.
And his ears. I'm with Sarge on this.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 10, 2014, 06:12:16 PM

A couple of nice symphonies in 1769, and an overture that was thought to be a symphony until rather recently, too. I've put together a few thoughts on them, if you are interested.

Take that, red herring! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/03/1769-the-music-part-1.html) :)

Feel free to discuss, I love to learn new things. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 10, 2014, 06:15:38 PM

Quote from: Que on March 09, 2014, 09:51:51 PM
That Ricercar set of the octets was my 1st encounter with this repertoire, such a great set! :)

Q

Me too. I found the first disk (actually the second one) and was amazed. It took a year to find disk 1. Perhaps 6 months after that, they released the first iteration of the 2 disk set. I had mixed emotions, but being pleased that everyone can now get it won out in the end. :)

8)

[asin]B0000632DN[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 10, 2014, 07:23:18 PM

If Haydn only had done works for winds, we would have still won!

(http://shop.weinermusic.com/images/CDM4.jpg)

Be honest. When you think winds from JH, do you think Miami? ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 11, 2014, 04:13:23 AM

Quote from: Bogey on March 10, 2014, 07:23:18 PM
If Haydn only had done works for winds, we would have still won!

(http://shop.weinermusic.com/images/CDM4.jpg)

Be honest. When you think winds from JH, do you think Miami? ;D

:)

No, but Prague may be in there somewhere. I like that disk, even though the music is by someone else. It just goes to show that there was plenty of good music to listen to back then, even if it wasn't be someone whose name you know. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 11, 2014, 04:56:28 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 10, 2014, 09:46:11 AM
A couple of the DRD CDs have been regularly in the tray of our Corolla. I like 'em a lot.

Just had No. 63 play yesterday from that set, very nice indeed.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 11, 2014, 06:02:58 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 11, 2014, 04:56:28 AM
Just had No. 63 play yesterday from that set, very nice indeed.

Does DRD use trumpets and timpani in #48? Just curious.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on March 11, 2014, 08:52:17 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 08, 2014, 05:01:55 AM
Jens, your links go to the Shostakovich article, not Haydn.

Sarge

So it did. Sorry about that.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-1Yt6bfhfAB8/UwC1fJ09K_I/AAAAAAAAHcI/iur4c_N7fjo/s1600/WienerKonzerthaus_Magazin_Graphik.png)

Philippe Herreweghe on Haydn and why Making Records Makes Sense

(http://konzerthaus.at/magazin/Portals/0/blog_data/Magazine%202014/Herreweghe_Philippe_14_Feb14_560.jpg)
http://konzerthaus.at/magazin/Home/tabid/41/entryid/342/Philippe-Herreweghe-on-Haydn-and-why-Making-Records-Makes-Sense.aspx (http://konzerthaus.at/magazin/Home/tabid/41/entryid/342/Philippe-Herreweghe-on-Haydn-and-why-Making-Records-Makes-Sense.aspx)

FIXED

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 11, 2014, 10:06:03 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on March 11, 2014, 08:52:17 AM
So it did. Sorry about that.

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-1Yt6bfhfAB8/UwC1fJ09K_I/AAAAAAAAHcI/iur4c_N7fjo/s1600/WienerKonzerthaus_Magazin_Graphik.png)

Philippe Herreweghe on Haydn and why Making Records Makes Sense

(http://konzerthaus.at/magazin/Portals/0/blog_data/Magazine%202014/Herreweghe_Philippe_14_Feb14_560.jpg)
http://konzerthaus.at/magazin/Home/tabid/41/entryid/342/Philippe-Herreweghe-on-Haydn-and-why-Making-Records-Makes-Sense.aspx (http://konzerthaus.at/magazin/Home/tabid/41/entryid/342/Philippe-Herreweghe-on-Haydn-and-why-Making-Records-Makes-Sense.aspx)

FIXED

Thanks, Jens. Very interesting reading it is, too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on March 11, 2014, 10:12:03 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on March 11, 2014, 08:52:17 AM
(http://konzerthaus.at/magazin/Portals/0/blog_data/Magazine%202014/Herreweghe_Philippe_14_Feb14_560.jpg)

FIXED

Didn't know he was broken.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on March 11, 2014, 10:14:07 AM

Quote from: Ken B on March 11, 2014, 10:12:03 AM
Didn't know he was broken.

Nah, he just got his fix of Herreweghe's Haydn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on March 11, 2014, 10:16:10 AM

Quote from: North Star on March 11, 2014, 10:14:07 AM
Nah, he just got his fix of Herreweghe's Haydn.

Ahhhh. Good. For a moment there I thought snippers were involved ...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 11, 2014, 06:07:03 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 11, 2014, 06:02:58 AM
Does DRD use trumpets and timpani in #48? Just curious.... :)

8)

I do hear them. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 11, 2014, 07:07:09 PM

Well, did some vinyl treasure hunting tonight and came up with two beauties on the Hugaroton label.

(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa35/BillandLinda/IMG_1304_zps4675bb48.jpg)

This above box set has #'s 42-53 on it played on piano. So far quite nice, as the vinyl is pristine. I cannot find any sign of these specific recordings having made it to cd. If you know of them on disc, let me know.

(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa35/BillandLinda/IMG_1305_zps2bdb967d.jpg)

This next set (#'s54-62) does have a disc release, though the disc, unlike the album set, is missing #'s 57, 58, and 61.

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/8d/ce/5a05828fd7a092b059765110.L._SY300_.jpg)

Pricey little goomers on Ebay. I could grab a Volume 2 for $49, but that ain't going to happen. If you come across a 1, 2, or 5 for dirt ( a few bucks), IM me and I might grab it from you if you do not mind.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 12, 2014, 05:01:20 PM

I've seen that CD many times on ebay, but managed to refrain, I suppose because of the modern instrument and the high price. I wasn't aware of the entire set though, I see you vinyl'er's have the advantage of us there, Bill. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 12, 2014, 06:17:33 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 12, 2014, 05:01:20 PM
I've seen that CD many times on ebay, but managed to refrain, I suppose because of the modern instrument and the high price. I wasn't aware of the entire set though, I see you vinyl'er's have the advantage of us there, Bill. :)

8)

Unless there is another cd with it on there. With this label (which is a great one, imo), it is possible. It is fun to find the non cd stuff just because you believe for a moment that you have made an incredible discovery of lost music. (You might find me crawling around on the record shop floor humming the Indy theme when scouring the "caves" under the bins that others browse.) Somewhat true, but the closer truth would be that most of the stuff worth bringing over to the cd format has been. There are exceptions of course and we are trying to bring those to light on the vinyl thread.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 12, 2014, 06:26:04 PM

Then there are times when I cannot pass up a record even though it has made it onto cd....even more than once. Case in point (but not my image):

(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/NjIzWDEwMDE=/$(KGrHqMOKiME6YN!u4t6BOue7lslz!~~60_12.JPG)

I bought this last night for $4. DavidW and Sarge both pointed out their liking for this, so BOOM. Threw it on top of the pile and went home happy. 'Bet even money that Sarge has this one in his vinyl vault.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on March 12, 2014, 10:46:29 PM

Ranki didn't record all the Haydn sonatas as far as I know. It's far from complete.I'm extremely keen on his Haydn (and Kocsis's)

One Haydn LP which never made it to CD is Weissenberg's. Well worth hearing. As is Rosen's, which also never made it to CD, and is equally excellent. Lubov Timofeyeva is also not at all bad - only a small fraction of her Haydn ever left LP.

You may also like to check the trio recordings with Janigro, Badura Skoda and Fournier.

And there's there early Juilliard op 54, which I remember discussing with someone here before.

Also lots of Rosbaud. I would grab all the Haydn you can from him. Did Edwin Fischer's symphony 104 ever make it to CD?

I have digital transfers of all these things.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 13, 2014, 03:07:28 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on March 12, 2014, 10:46:29 PM
Ranki didn't record all the Haydn sonatas as far as I know. It's far from complete.I'm extremely keen on his Haydn (and Kocsis's)

One Haydn LP which never made it to CD is Weissenberg's. Well worth hearing. As is Rosen's, which also never made it to CD, and is equally excellent. Lubov Timofeyeva is also not at all bad - only a small fraction of her Haydn ever left LP.

You may also like to check the trio recordings with Janigro, Badura Skoda and Fournier.

And there's there early Juilliard op 54, which I remember discussing with someone here before.

Also lots of Rosbaud. I would grab all the Haydn you can from him. Did Edwin Fischer's symphony 104 ever make it to CD?

I have digital transfers of all these things.

Excellent list and very helpful. Thanks!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on March 13, 2014, 05:05:28 AM

This Musica Omnia release looks extremely interesting:

[asin]B00FJ4L790[/asin]

Anyway, at least the 1st disk (with Beghin) seems a re-releas of an excellent old recording on Bridge. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2014, 05:35:02 AM

Quote from: Gordo on March 13, 2014, 05:05:28 AM
This Musica Omnia release looks extremely interesting:

[asin]B00FJ4L790[/asin]

Anyway, at least the 1st disk (with Beghin) seems a re-releas of an excellent old recording on Bridge. :)

That IS interesting! Yes, no doubt #1 - 12 and Arianna a Naxos are the old Bridge recording, my very favorite in those works. Do you know, there is no single set (excepting Ameling/Demus's complete Lieder) of #13 - 24? Until now, apparently. Thanks for pointing this up, Gordo, it's now already in my cart! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 13, 2014, 05:44:10 AM

Sweet!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2014, 09:45:24 AM

Not that it makes any difference to me one way or the other, but I find this blurb from Amazon's page on this disk to be interesting:

QuoteComplete recording of all 24 of Haydn's German songs. World premiere recording. Performed by experts in 18th century performance practice, including the art of ornamenting Haydn's vocal music. Accompaniments are performed on replicas of Haydn's fortepiano from around 1790. Booklet essay by distinguished Haydn scholar, Professor James Webster from Cornell University. A note on performance by fortepianist Tom Beghin is also included, along with English translations of all the song texts.

I already have all 24 German Lieder, Arianna a Naxos and the two Italian Duets on these disks. So clearly my curiosity is aroused. :)

Maybe they mean 'all in one place'.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on March 13, 2014, 01:13:30 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2014, 05:35:02 AM
That IS interesting! Yes, no doubt #1 - 12 and Arianna a Naxos are the old Bridge recording, my very favorite in those works. Do you know, there is no single set (excepting Ameling/Demus's complete Lieder) of #13 - 24? Until now, apparently. Thanks for pointing this up, Gordo, it's now already in my cart! :)

8)

Definitely! :) How could we have missed this? ??? :D

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2014, 03:10:04 PM

Quote from: Que on March 13, 2014, 01:13:30 PM
Definitely! :) How could we have missed this? ??? :D

Q

In all fairness, Gordo is in the Top 3 in the world for discovering out new releases that I like, so beating him to it is no easy matter! :o Also, it has only been out for, like, 3 weeks. Still... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: HIPster on March 13, 2014, 03:37:08 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2014, 03:10:04 PM
In all fairness, Gordo is in the Top 3 in the world for discovering out new releases that I like, so beating him to it is no easy matter! :o Also, it has only been out for, like, 3 weeks. Still... :-\

8)

+1

Gordo has the eyes of a hawk when it comes to finding out about releases - new or otherwise! :)

Thread duty ~

Just ordered from the amazon mp:
Concertos for Harpsichord and Violin

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51MjVHl7czL.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on March 13, 2014, 04:01:17 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2014, 03:10:04 PM
In all fairness, Gordo is in the Top 3 in the world for discovering out new releases that I like, so beating him to it is no easy matter! :o Also, it has only been out for, like, 3 weeks. Still... :-\

8)

Quote from: HIPster on March 13, 2014, 03:37:08 PM
+1

Gordo has the eyes of a hawk when it comes to finding out about releases - new or otherwise! :)

Well, I guess one of the greatest pleasures of any passion is the chance of communicate our small findings. :)

BTW, I saw the Musica Omnia disk for the first time just today, advertised by Amazon on this board. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2014, 04:09:24 PM

Quote from: HIPster on March 13, 2014, 03:37:08 PM
+1

Gordo has the eyes of a hawk when it comes to finding out about releases - new or otherwise! :)

Thread duty ~

Just ordered from the amazon mp:
Concertos for Harpsichord and Violin

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnConcertosDantoneMontanaricover-1.jpg)

That's a fine disk, you should be pleased with it. I like their performance of the Duo Concerto particularly. :)

Quote from: Gordo on March 13, 2014, 04:01:17 PM
Well, I guess one of the greatest pleasures of any passion is the chance of communicate our small findings. :)

BTW, I saw the Musica Omnia disk for the first time just today, advertised by Amazon on this board. ;)

Indeed, can't disagree with that. And there you see the downside of not getting the adverts... :-\ :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2014, 06:28:47 PM

I was delighted to see that in 1769, Haydn finally got back to writing quartets. It had been a while, no doubt. I had some thoughts on all this, if you are interested, check it out here:

String quartets again; finally! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/03/1769-the-music-part-2.html)

Thanks,m and if you want to discuss, please feel free!

Cheers,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 13, 2014, 06:42:29 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2014, 06:28:47 PM
I was delighted to see that in 1769, Haydn finally got back to writing quartets. It had been a while, no doubt. I had some thoughts on all this, if you are interested, check it out here:

String quartets again; finally! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/03/1769-the-music-part-2.html)

Thanks,m and if you want to discuss, please feel free!

Cheers,
8)

I see the long in, Gurn, but then it wants me to give an email and or start a 14 day trial for free. Is this correct?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 13, 2014, 06:57:21 PM

I am in.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2014, 07:02:09 PM

Quote from: Bogey on March 13, 2014, 06:57:21 PM
I am in.

That was strange, I hadn't heard of it doing that before. You must not have been holding your tongue right the first time. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 13, 2014, 07:04:55 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2014, 07:02:09 PM
That was strange, I hadn't heard of it doing that before. You must not have been holding your tongue right the first time. :)

8)

The Colorado-Haydn connection is not to be toyed with my friend as noted in being the first to join the blog. That is why I wear this mask....justice, freedom and Haydn for all. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 13, 2014, 07:59:15 PM

Revisiting a set that Andre? (Papa Smurf days) lead me to. Yes it's Marriner, but that does not necessarily mean a poor or uninspired performance. Rather, I hear quality. This goes for Gerhard Wilhelm's efforts here as well. The soloists are first rate and if one were to be walking by a church of these folks performing this live, I find it hard to believe that one would not be drawn through the front doors.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51H14XU%2BRpL._SX300_.jpg)

Oddly, this set is out of print, or has been re-released on another set that I have not looked for.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 14, 2014, 04:25:08 AM

Quote from: Bogey on March 13, 2014, 07:04:55 PM
The Colorado-Haydn connection is not to be toyed with my friend as noted in being the first to join the blog. That is why I wear this mask....justice, freedom and Haydn for all. ;)

I bow to your high-country wisdom. Thank you, sir! (who was that masked man?) :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 14, 2014, 05:22:33 AM

Quote from: Bogey on March 13, 2014, 07:04:55 PM
The Colorado-Haydn connection is not to be toyed with my friend as noted in being the first to join the blog. That is why I wear this mask....justice, freedom and Haydn for all. ;)

Thank you, gentlemen both, for this smile!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 15, 2014, 06:13:46 PM

I finished up the music of 1769 tonight. There are some attractive works from this year in total, and it ends up with a rather popular concerto which I have read some good comments about right here in Da Haus. Check it out if you like, feel free to discuss. I love to discuss. :)

The last of the '760's (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/03/1769-the-music-part-3.html)

Thanks for reading,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 15, 2014, 07:11:54 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 15, 2014, 06:13:46 PM
I finished up the music of 1769 tonight. There are some attractive works from this year in total, and it ends up with a rather popular concerto which I have read some good comments about right here in Da Haus. Check it out if you like, feel free to discuss. I love to discuss. :)

The last of the '760's (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/03/1769-the-music-part-3.html)

Thanks for reading,
8)

"If you want to puzzle on something, try to figure out how Haydn came to be composing a work for an outsider when he was under contract with the Prince."

I see a play/movie from this, Haydn and Esterházy. Could be the next Amadeus.

Thanks for the new posting, Gurn. Always a good read.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 16, 2014, 09:57:09 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 15, 2014, 07:11:54 PM
"If you want to puzzle on something, try to figure out how Haydn came to be composing a work for an outsider when he was under contract with the Prince."

I see a play/movie from this, Haydn and Esterházy. Could be the next Amadeus.

Thanks for the new posting, Gurn. Always a good read.

Thanks, Greg, I appreciate your constancy.

Hmm, a play or movie... that would be something! Milos Foreman; where are you when I need you? :)

Despite there being no record of it, I wonder if Paradis stopped at Eszterházy on her tour. Everyone did, who could. In that case, the Prince, being a prince of a fellow, could have offered her a Haydn concerto in return for a performance. As always, it is easy to speculate when there is no documentation. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 16, 2014, 11:25:52 AM

Continuing my enjoyment of Haydn through those that brought him more into the limelight early on. I believe we could put Szell on this list. This recording (in mono) from Severance Hall, Cleveland in April of 1954 is a fine example. Here the "hall" is an obvious contributor to the sound. I do not want to call it "atmospheric", but there seems to be space between the notes and them reaching the recording devices. Add to this the mono quality and the warmth of the vinyl and you have a special recording.

(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa35/BillandLinda/IMG_1318_zps50bdcac7.jpg)

(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa35/BillandLinda/IMG_1319_zps8afd3fda.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 16, 2014, 11:30:48 AM

And to be released March 25:

[asin]B003TUG3UO[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 16, 2014, 11:32:07 AM

Quote from: Bogey on March 16, 2014, 11:25:52 AM
Continuing my enjoyment of Haydn through those that brought him more into the limelight early on. I believe we could put Szell on this list. This recording (in mono) from Severance Hall, Cleveland in April of 1954 is a fine example. Here the "hall" is an obvious contributor to the sound. I do not want to call it "atmospheric", but there seems to be space between the notes and them reaching the recording devices. Add to this the mono quality and the warmth of the vinyl and you have a special recording.

(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa35/BillandLinda/IMG_1318_zps50bdcac7.jpg)

(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa35/BillandLinda/IMG_1319_zps8afd3fda.jpg)

Nice chorus hanging overtop, Bill. :)

Interesting he calls #88 "Paris". Technically, of course, it was composed on commission by the Compte D'Ogny, who also commissioned the Paris Symphonies, but I have never heard it considered to be part of that set. Learn something new every day. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 16, 2014, 11:37:29 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 16, 2014, 11:32:07 AM
Nice chorus hanging overtop, Bill. :)

Interesting he calls #88 "Paris". Technically, of course, it was composed on commission by the Compte D'Ogny, who also commissioned the Paris Symphonies, but I have never heard it considered to be part of that set. Learn something new every day. :)

8)

Well, at least they got the London part right. Maybe that is what they thought in '54? Let me do some checking.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 16, 2014, 11:41:53 AM

If you read here with the zoom on the back notes, they give it a Paris title

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WILHELM-FURTWANGLER-conds-SCHUMANN-Sym-No-4-HAYDN-Sym-No-88-DECCA-GOLD-MINT-/390797863924?pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item5afd5e2bf4

but not all vinyl from "the day" does:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRUNO-WALTER-HAYDN-Symphony-No-100-Symphony-88-in-G-Major-2-EYE-MONO-MINT-/281285562059?pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item417ded0ecb

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 16, 2014, 11:44:45 AM

Quote from: Bogey on March 16, 2014, 11:37:29 AM
Well, at least they got the London part right. Maybe that is what they thought in '54? Let me do some checking.

I just wonder if they were trying to give the impression it was one of the 6 Paris works to boost sales since people have heard of those. You could call it a "Paris II" symphony. :) Nowadays, 88-92 are called 'The Chunnel Symphonies' since they actually arrived in London before they made it to Paris and were performed in London when Haydn arrived in 1791.

Yep, got the 'London' part double right' it is not only a London symphony, it is also the 'London' Symphony! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 16, 2014, 11:51:47 AM

Trying to figure out if Beecham or Dorati recorded the early symphonies first. I did find one cat Ernst Maerzendorfer with the Vienna Chamber Orchestra that recorded 1-4, but these lps are notorious for not dating the recordings. Was Dorati the first to cycle through?

(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/ODAwWDgwMA==/z/M2EAAOxyni9TFM4b/$_3.JPG)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 16, 2014, 11:51:59 AM

Quote from: Bogey on March 16, 2014, 11:41:53 AM
If you read here with the zoom on the back notes, they give it a Paris title

http://www.ebay.com/itm/WILHELM-FURTWANGLER-conds-SCHUMANN-Sym-No-4-HAYDN-Sym-No-88-DECCA-GOLD-MINT-/390797863924?pt=Music_on_Vinyl&hash=item5afd5e2bf4

Ha, that is so wrong! It specifically says #88 is "one of the six Paris symphonies composed in 1785-86". Those six are #82-87. 88 was composed in 1787. So, it was a fault of scholarship at the time (or a scam). That is very interesting, thanks for those links, Bill. FYI, the scores they used back at that time were pretty lame too, an authoritative score was still a few years in the future. The accrued emendations of centuries and all that... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 16, 2014, 11:54:18 AM

Quote from: Bogey on March 16, 2014, 11:51:47 AM
Trying to figure out if Beecham or Dorati recorded the early symphonies first. I did find one cat Ernst Maerzendorfer with the Vienna Chamber Orchestra that recorded 1-4, but these lps are notorious for not dating the recordings. Was Dorati the first to cycle through?

(http://i.ebayimg.com/00/s/ODAwWDgwMA==/z/M2EAAOxyni9TFM4b/$_3.JPG)

I need to let someone more knowledgeable handle that, Bill. I thought it was Märzendorfer. I know a place that will know, I'll see if I can find a link. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 16, 2014, 11:56:18 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 16, 2014, 11:51:59 AM
Ha, that is so wrong! It specifically says #88 is "one of the six Paris symphonies composed in 1785-86". Those six are #82-87. 88 was composed in 1787. So, it was a fault of scholarship at the time (or a scam). That is very interesting, thanks for those links, Bill. FYI, the scores they used back at that time were pretty lame too, an authoritative score was still a few years in the future. The accrued emendations of centuries and all that... :)

8)

Be sure to blog this stuff for future "referencers". The history of recordings is fascinating to some of us and Haydn seems to somewhat, and I say somewhat, possible to follow. Unlike Mozart or LvB.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 16, 2014, 11:57:15 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 16, 2014, 11:54:18 AM
I need to let someone more knowledgeable handle that, Bill. I thought it was Märzendorfer. I know a place that will know, I'll see if I can find a link. :)

8)

Thanks. Did Märzendorfer complete the cycle?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 16, 2014, 12:01:58 PM

Haydn lps available on Ebay: 6,334
Beethoven: 18,912
Mozart: 17,567

Not an exact science and one that does not take into account repeats, but I see a ton of Lud and Wolfie in record stacks and only a handful of Haydn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 16, 2014, 12:02:28 PM

Quote from: Bogey on March 16, 2014, 11:57:15 AM
Thanks. Did Märzendorfer complete the cycle?

Don't know. You can get CD transfers at Haydn House. Umm, not Haydn's Haus, the CD transfer company. They have the Goberman and the Leslie Jones sets, the thing is that you can see their transfers and they tell you a lot about what the originals were, or if they existed.

http://www.haydnhouse.com/home.htm

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 16, 2014, 12:16:01 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 16, 2014, 12:02:28 PM
Don't know. You can get CD transfers at Haydn House. Umm, not Haydn's Haus, the CD transfer company. They have the Goberman and the Leslie Jones sets, the thing is that you can see their transfers and they tell you a lot about what the originals were, or if they existed.

http://www.haydnhouse.com/home.htm

8)

Looks like Jones recorded for the Nonesuch label which is discussed a bit on the vinyl thread. As for Goberman, his are on the Odyssey label. Kind of a wash to pay for the cds or just find the lps. I believe I will look for the later as they say the sound quality from their masters is iffy on some. However, they may have some that never made it to lp. Either way, many thanks.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 16, 2014, 12:17:57 PM

As for Haydn receiving a bit of a brighter spot on the "recording map", I cannot help but think that these Merc recordings went a long way in getting him into more households.

(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa35/BillandLinda/IMG_1320_zps36ed6a26.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 16, 2014, 12:20:08 PM

Quote from: Bogey on March 16, 2014, 12:16:01 PM
Looks like Jones recorded for the Nonesuch label which is discussed a bit on the vinyl thread. As for Goberman, his are on the Odyssey label. Kind of a wash to pay for the cds or just find the lps. I believe I will look for the later as they say the sound quality from their masters is iffy on some. However, they may have some that never made it to lp. Either way, many thanks.

As an example, they have the 9 lp's by Derek Solomons/L'Estro Armonico which CBS never saw fit to release on CD. I have already the 7 which they did release commercially, and will gladly pay the $108 for the remaining 9. Of course, the lp's are from the late '70's / early '80's, so SQ is excellent either way. But since I have no equipment for playing records, it's a no-brainer for me. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 16, 2014, 12:21:04 PM

Quote from: Bogey on March 16, 2014, 12:17:57 PM
As for Haydn receiving a bit of a brighter spot on the "recording map", I cannot help but think that these Merc recordings went a long way in getting him into more households.

(http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa35/BillandLinda/IMG_1320_zps36ed6a26.jpg)

Yes, bet it did. I see he is carrying Mozart on his back yet again... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 16, 2014, 12:23:10 PM

Quote from: Bogey on March 16, 2014, 12:16:01 PM
Looks like Jones recorded for the Nonesuch label which is discussed a bit on the vinyl thread. As for Goberman, his are on the Odyssey label. Kind of a wash to pay for the cds or just find the lps. I believe I will look for the later as they say the sound quality from their masters is iffy on some. However, they may have some that never made it to lp. Either way, many thanks.

Did you see the Märzendorfer link above those?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 16, 2014, 12:29:59 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 16, 2014, 12:23:10 PM
Did you see the Märzendorfer link above those?

8)

Yup. Also led me to the Hermann Scherchen on another page from the 1950's.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 16, 2014, 12:32:34 PM

Quote from: Bogey on March 16, 2014, 11:30:48 AM
And to be released March 25:

[asin]B003TUG3UO[/asin]

Huzzah for this re-release! A very nice box.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 16, 2014, 12:37:36 PM

Found this interesting page;

http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics4/haydnquartets.html

Toward the later part of the article, they discuss the history of recordings of Haydn's quartets.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 16, 2014, 12:40:32 PM

And this for #100

http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics3/military.html

At least to judge from lists of early recordings, by the twentieth century affection for the Haydn symphonies had shifted from the "Military" to the "Surprise" (# 94), which boasted several sets of acoustic 78s, including the first Haydn on record in 1913 (by Eduard Künneke and the Odeon-Streichorchester), while a few of the others had only a smattering of releases. The Military had to await 1933 for its first complete recording by the Berlin Symphony Orchestra led by Hans Knappertsbusch,Hans Knappertsbusch conducts the Berlin Symphony Orchestra in the Haydn Military Symphony (Preiser CD cover) who had waxed the Surprise in 1929 with the Berlin State Opera Orchestra (and would record it twice more in 1941 and 1950 with the Berlin Philharmonic). (Two earlier ventures had been cut (by excising the opening adagio and trimming the allegretto) to fit each movement onto a single 12-inch 78 rpm side – a 1916 set by the Victor Concert Orchestra in extremely clear detail for the time, and a 1926 Vox set by an unnamed orchestra led by Erich Kleiber. Both are spirited yet graceful, with the Kleiber account, having the advantage of the new electrical recording technology, more full-bodied, with stronger dynamics and an especially pensive trio.) In contrast to his rather staid and unsurprising Surprises, as well as his straightforward Mozart recordings of similar vintage, Knappertsbush's Military is a fascinating document, marked by a creative and deeply personal interpretive touch – each movement is distended by a mammoth tempo shift at its mid-point, with varying impact. The first, following an extremely swift introduction and rather normal exposition nearly grinds to a halt for the far slower development, as if to signal with a change of pace the importance of Haydn's enlargement of that section's role within sonata form. (To further offset the development, Knappertsbusch inserts a long pause before the recapitulation, which then accelerates wildly to the coda.) Half-way through the allegretto, Knappertsbusch drops the tempo, as if to illustrate the dual nature of the Turkish music's evocation of war – both celebratory and then somber. Given a choice, Knappertsbush seems to favor the latter, as the treble portions of his Turkish music can barely be heard, and added pauses between phrases of the trumpet fanfare and slashing downbeats in the following measures all portend doubt and despair. That feeling is extended in the menuetto, whose spirited dance is brought to a standstill each of the three times the opening section is heard before picking up again. (An added curious touch – Knappertsbusch adds a repeat of the first section not in the score, perhaps in part to justify release on eight 78 rpm sides, rather than the six typically used for the work.) And to complete the scheme, Knappertsbusch literally halves the tempo at the mid-point of the finale. Whether viewed nowadays as daring and meaningful or merely quirky and frustrating, this remains not only the first, but the most quixotic, personal and stylistically challenging (and perhaps perplexing) Military on record (now on a Preiser CD).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 16, 2014, 01:01:16 PM

Quote from: Bogey on March 16, 2014, 12:40:32 PM
And this for #100

http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics3/military.html

At least to judge from lists of early recordings, by the twentieth century affection for the Haydn symphonies had shifted from the "Military" to the "Surprise" (# 94), which boasted several sets of acoustic 78s, including the first Haydn on record in 1913 (by Eduard Künneke and the Odeon-Streichorchester), while a few of the others had only a smattering of releases. The Military had to await 1933 for its first complete recording by the Berlin Symphony Orchestra led by Hans Knappertsbusch,Hans Knappertsbusch conducts the Berlin Symphony Orchestra in the Haydn Military Symphony (Preiser CD cover) who had waxed the Surprise in 1929 with the Berlin State Opera Orchestra (and would record it twice more in 1941 and 1950 with the Berlin Philharmonic). (Two earlier ventures had been cut (by excising the opening adagio and trimming the allegretto) to fit each movement onto a single 12-inch 78 rpm side – a 1916 set by the Victor Concert Orchestra in extremely clear detail for the time, and a 1926 Vox set by an unnamed orchestra led by Erich Kleiber. Both are spirited yet graceful, with the Kleiber account, having the advantage of the new electrical recording technology, more full-bodied, with stronger dynamics and an especially pensive trio.) In contrast to his rather staid and unsurprising Surprises, as well as his straightforward Mozart recordings of similar vintage, Knappertsbush's Military is a fascinating document, marked by a creative and deeply personal interpretive touch – each movement is distended by a mammoth tempo shift at its mid-point, with varying impact. The first, following an extremely swift introduction and rather normal exposition nearly grinds to a halt for the far slower development, as if to signal with a change of pace the importance of Haydn's enlargement of that section's role within sonata form. (To further offset the development, Knappertsbusch inserts a long pause before the recapitulation, which then accelerates wildly to the coda.) Half-way through the allegretto, Knappertsbusch drops the tempo, as if to illustrate the dual nature of the Turkish music's evocation of war – both celebratory and then somber. Given a choice, Knappertsbush seems to favor the latter, as the treble portions of his Turkish music can barely be heard, and added pauses between phrases of the trumpet fanfare and slashing downbeats in the following measures all portend doubt and despair. That feeling is extended in the menuetto, whose spirited dance is brought to a standstill each of the three times the opening section is heard before picking up again. (An added curious touch – Knappertsbusch adds a repeat of the first section not in the score, perhaps in part to justify release on eight 78 rpm sides, rather than the six typically used for the work.) And to complete the scheme, Knappertsbusch literally halves the tempo at the mid-point of the finale. Whether viewed nowadays as daring and meaningful or merely quirky and frustrating, this remains not only the first, but the most quixotic, personal and stylistically challenging (and perhaps perplexing) Military on record (now on a Preiser CD).

Fascinating, Bill. Of course, it is nothing that modern tastes would tolerate, but as an historical view it is really quite interesting. As it turns out, I have read that before, it is the thing I mentioned earlier today as wanting to find you a link to, but it was a while ago and you know how my memory is. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 16, 2014, 01:20:16 PM

Hope you do not mind me littering your thread with lp issues and recording history banter, but I find these topics fascinating because of their infrequency.

I can see a sincere Klemperer going to his boss and saying, "How about a Haydn cycle!?"

Boss: Aren't there over 100? That's a good one Klemp! You are kidding, right?

Klemp: Sure, just kidding. *Slumps off*

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 16, 2014, 01:25:11 PM

Quote from: Bogey on March 16, 2014, 01:20:16 PM
Hope you do not mind me littering your thread with lp issues and recording history banter, but I find these topics fascinating because of their infrequency.

I can see a sincere Klemperer going to his boss and saying, "How about a Haydn cycle!?"

Boss: Aren't there over 100? That's a good one Klemp! You are kidding, right?

Klemp: Sure, just kidding. *Slumps off*

Nope, I'm delighted. I know there are people here who know a lot about this topic, I invite them to join the conversation. I have very little to contribute, unfortunately. For me, the Haydn Revolution started with Solomons in ~1978. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on March 16, 2014, 10:10:30 PM

Quote from: Bogey on March 16, 2014, 11:57:15 AM
Thanks. Did Märzendorfer complete the cycle?

He didn't record alternative versions/alternative instrumentation, or individual movements, or symphonies which are only disputably Haydn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on March 16, 2014, 10:15:18 PM

Quote from: Bogey on March 16, 2014, 12:29:59 PM
Yup. Also led me to the Hermann Scherchen on another page from the 1950's.

I think many Scherchen recordings were part of an attempt by The Haydn Society to produce a complete cycle conducted by different people. Apart from Scherchen, Jonathan Sternberg was involved in the project.

Another early attept at a complete cycle was Max Goberman's.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on March 17, 2014, 12:43:13 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on March 16, 2014, 10:15:18 PM
I think many Scherchen recordings were part of an attempt by The Haydn Society to produce a complete cycle conducted by different people. Apart from Scherchen, Jonathan Sternberg was involved in the project.

Another early attept at a complete cycle was Max Goberman's.

I saw this on qobuz.com:

(http://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/26/49/5054227004926_600.jpg) (http://www.qobuz.com/album/haydn-middle-symphonies-vienna-state-opera-orchestra/5054227004926)

Beulah has done some pretty good transfers, but I don't know if they had access to the master tapes for this one.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on March 17, 2014, 07:47:49 AM

Quote from: Bogey on March 16, 2014, 12:01:58 PM
Haydn lps available on Ebay: 6,334
Beethoven: 18,912
Mozart: 17,567

Not an exact science and one that does not take into account repeats, but I see a ton of Lud and Wolfie in record stacks and only a handful of Haydn.

Perhaps it merely reflects the possibility that people are more inclined to hold on to Haydn than to Beethoven or Mozart.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 17, 2014, 12:27:39 PM

Quote from: Bogey on March 16, 2014, 11:30:48 AM
And to be released March 25:

[asin]B003TUG3UO[/asin]

About damn time...that box was released three years ago in Europe! And speaking of Haydn and Cleveland: next season Welser-Möst is conducting Symphonies 39 & 40; and Bernard Labadie is doing an all Haydn concert, including Overture to L'isola disabitata, the Double Horn Concerto, the D major Piano Concerto (played by Hamelin) and Symphony 101. That would be worth an intercontinental flight 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 17, 2014, 12:52:56 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 17, 2014, 12:27:39 PM
About damn time...that box was released three years ago in Europe! And speaking of Haydn and Cleveland: next season Welser-Möst is conducting Symphonies 39 & 40; and Bernard Labadie is doing an all Haydn concert, including Overture to L'isola disabitata, the Double Horn Concerto, the D major Piano Concerto (played by Hamelin) and Symphony 101. That would be worth an intercontinental flight 8)

Sarge

I'd take an intercontinental flight to hear the lost 2 horn concerto... just sayin' :) I wonder if that is actually one by Michael Haydn. I can't remember if I've heard that one or not. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 17, 2014, 12:58:24 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 17, 2014, 12:52:56 PM
I'd take an intercontinental flight to hear the lost 2 horn concerto... just sayin' :) I wonder if that is actually one by Michael Haydn. I can't remember if I've heard that one or not. :-\

8)

The schedule that was released didn't specify but I assume it's the Concerto for Two Horns in E flat, Hob. VIId/6. There's some doubt about it's authenticity, I believe? In any case, I don't think I've heard it either.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 17, 2014, 01:01:24 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 17, 2014, 12:58:24 PM
The schedule that was released didn't specify but I assume it's the Concerto for Two Horns in E flat, Hob. VIId/6. There's some doubt about it's authenticity, I believe? In any case, I don't think I've heard it either.

Sarge

I'll have to look up the specifics when I get home. Whatever I read abut it called it lost, so I never delved off into it. I read somewhere (maybe an advert) about a recording, that is probably the 'dubious' one you are talking about. Check this space later for more details. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 17, 2014, 01:06:12 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 17, 2014, 01:01:24 PM
I'll have to look up the specifics when I get home. Whatever I read abut it called it lost, so I never delved off into it. I read somewhere (maybe an advert) about a recording, that is probably the 'dubious' one you are talking about. Check this space later for more details. :D

8)

Wiki says the lost double horn concerto is Hob.VIId/2 with the possibility that Hob.VIId/6 is that lost concerto. Or maybe it's by someone else.

Don't you love Haydn scholarship? :D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 17, 2014, 01:17:41 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 17, 2014, 01:06:12 PM
Wiki says the lost double horn concerto is Hob.VIId/2 with the possibility that Hob.VIId/6 is that lost concerto. Or maybe it's by someone else.

Don't you love Haydn scholarship? :D

Sarge

Yeah, it slays me. It's one thing for me to have virtually every book in English on Haydn, it's something else to plow through them and find non-conflicting information. It's like they were each writing about someone different. ::) :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 17, 2014, 01:42:01 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 17, 2014, 12:27:39 PM
About damn time...that box was released three years ago in Europe!

I bought it at a brick-&-mortar shop in Boston, and you know that was a while ago ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 17, 2014, 01:44:55 PM

Quote from: Bogey on March 16, 2014, 12:40:32 PMKnappertsbush's Military is a fascinating document, marked by a creative and deeply personal interpretive touch...this remains not only the first, but the most quixotic, personal and stylistically challenging (and perhaps perplexing) Military on record (now on a Preiser CD).

Thanks for posting that, Bill. I definitely need to hear this. Amazon DE has the CD in stock...and it's available as a d/l too.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 17, 2014, 01:46:53 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 17, 2014, 01:42:01 PM
I bought it at a brick-&-mortar shop in Boston, and you know that was a while ago ;)

So it sold out and is now being re-released? If so, that's great news.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 17, 2014, 02:56:54 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 17, 2014, 01:44:55 PM
Thanks for posting that, Bill. I definitely need to hear this. Amazon DE has the CD in stock...and it's available as a d/l too.

Sarge

I ordered a copy yesterday. Will let you folks know.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 17, 2014, 04:40:44 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 17, 2014, 01:06:12 PM
Wiki says the lost double horn concerto is Hob.VIId/2 with the possibility that Hob.VIId/6 is that lost concerto. Or maybe it's by someone else.

Don't you love Haydn scholarship? :D

Sarge

OK, Sarge, I did a cursory search (that has a special meaning in Haydn research, it means I cursed a lot :) ), and I found these two, just in New Grove. I'll find some commentary to go with them I'm sure:

Hob. Work KEY Instruments Year Edition Comment
VIId:2 Concerto a 2 corni, Eb unk. –?1784 lost
— Concerto for 2 horns, Eb 2 ob, 2 hn, str ? (Amsterdam, 1966)

Comment for #2: orig. without author's name; 'par Michael Heiden' added later

Somewhere I saw a disk which had this second work on it. Note it doesn't have a Hoboken number, which seems to say it was found after Hoboken was done with that section (1958, I think). It would be the one I was thinking was attrib. to Michael, but even that seems in doubt, just reading the comment on it. Feder is really harsh about that sort of thing, but that is probably a good thing. If it is a good concerto and you forced me to pick a composer, the first thing I would say is Rosetti. Back in 1966 he was not neartly so well known, so he wouldn't have been one to attrib. it to. :D

I'll see what else I can turn up.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 17, 2014, 05:28:51 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 17, 2014, 04:40:44 PM
OK, Sarge, I did a cursory search (that has a special meaning in Haydn research, it means I cursed a lot :) ), and I found these two, just in New Grove. I'll find some commentary to go with them I'm sure:

Hob. Work KEY Instruments Year Edition Comment
VIId:2 Concerto a 2 corni, Eb unk. –?1784 lost
— Concerto for 2 horns, Eb 2 ob, 2 hn, str ? (Amsterdam, 1966)

Comment for #2: orig. without author's name; 'par Michael Heiden' added later

Somewhere I saw a disk which had this second work on it. Note it doesn't have a Hoboken number, which seems to say it was found after Hoboken was done with that section (1958, I think). It would be the one I was thinking was attrib. to Michael, but even that seems in doubt, just reading the comment on it. Feder is really harsh about that sort of thing, but that is probably a good thing. If it is a good concerto and you forced me to pick a composer, the first thing I would say is Rosetti. Back in 1966 he was not neartly so well known, so he wouldn't have been one to attrib. it to. :D

I'll see what else I can turn up.

8)

Have you found out anything about VIId:6, the Double Horn Conc that the Wiki article mentions?

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 17, 2014, 05:29:41 PM

Quote from: Bogey on March 17, 2014, 02:56:54 PM
I ordered a copy yesterday. Will let you folks know.

I ordered it a few hours ago. Should have it ~~Monday~~ Wednesday.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 17, 2014, 05:41:13 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 17, 2014, 05:28:51 PM
Have you found out anything about VIId:6, the Double Horn Conc that the Wiki article mentions?

Sarge

No, I don't know where that number comes from. It doesn't appear in New Grove, nor in any of Landon's books or Wyn-Jones' either. Given the key (Eb) and the dates (1966), I have to believe it is referring to the work listed with no Hob number. Among the authentic and spurious works, 6 was not the next number available, 5 was still open. But maybe someone (the publisher??) just picked that number. I'm puzzled by that, usually people don't just make a number up, but Feder doesn't just miss things like that either. Maybe we'll have to write to Welser-Most... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 17, 2014, 05:47:54 PM

1770 was quite an interesting year, lots going on, great music being written... even being shown off in Vienna by the Prince! I took a brief look at it, if you're interested, have a look.

1770, the year the Empress came to visit (the first time) (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/03/1770-the-year.html)

Thanks for reading, feel free to comment.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 17, 2014, 05:59:32 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 17, 2014, 05:47:54 PM
1770 was quite an interesting year, lots going on, great music being written... even being shown off in Vienna by the Prince! I took a brief look at it, if you're interested, have a look.

1770, the year the Empress came to visit (the first time) (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/03/1770-the-year.html)

Thanks for reading, feel free to comment.

8)

Gotta' ask: Where does your wife line up with your Haydn passion. Supports? That's his thing? or Does not know about this second life of yours? Just curious. As well as friends down there. Folks at work? It's just so stinking impressive that I hope they get what you have put together.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 17, 2014, 07:07:15 PM

Quote from: Bogey on March 17, 2014, 05:59:32 PM
Gotta' ask: Where does your wife line up with your Haydn passion. Supports? That's his thing? or Does not know about this second life of yours? Just curious. As well as friends down there. Folks at work? It's just so stinking impressive that I hope they get what you have put together.

:) Oh, she knows. She supports it because I guess she reckons it keeps me off the streets. It isn't an interest of hers, but she respects that my tastes differ. Can't beat that, I guess. People at work know nothing about it, I don't think they would be interested though. Basically it's just me and the Interwebs. I am pleased that you are enjoying it, Bill. People like yourself are my intended audience, since you are the most likely to expand your interest in Haydn with some easy help from me. This is basically outline for what I hope will be my legacy. We'll see. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on March 17, 2014, 07:47:27 PM

You had some symphony posts on your main page but it stops well before the end. Have they not been written yet or do they just not feature as highly to warrant links on the front page?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 18, 2014, 04:13:35 AM

Quote from: DavidW on March 17, 2014, 07:47:27 PM
You had some symphony posts on your main page but it stops well before the end. Have they not been written yet or do they just not feature as highly to warrant links on the front page?

The chronology posts? I was just doing them like a decade at a time. I could do them to the end, but I wanted to use them more as a preview of the near future. I am up to 1770 right now and the symphony chronology is at 1774, so I will be putting in the next installement soon. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on March 18, 2014, 04:18:03 AM

Ah okay I see. I look forward to the next entry.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 18, 2014, 04:19:06 AM

Quote from: DavidW on March 18, 2014, 04:18:03 AM
Ah okay I see. I look forward to the next entry.

Thanks. Hope you enjoy it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 20, 2014, 02:23:35 PM

Getting near the end of the my Haydn symphony listening project (all 106 in the correct order) (and have got a lot more used to the Austro-Hungarian Chamber Orchestra's style).

Re No.98, the one with the harpsichord obbligato in the finale, I'm a bit puzzled because none of the recordings I have heard seem to make a sensible decision here. As to the harpsichord continuo in the symphonies generally I'm not fussed, I can do without it, or I can do with it. I guess I'd say I'd like to hear it up to about the 70s, but not in the later works. However in 98 there is a part for harpsichord specified in the finale as an instrumental solo. All the recordings I have heard don't feature a harpsichord continuo part in the rest of the work and suddenly this solo appears. Surely if Haydn was conducting from the harpsichord he didn't just play it in the solo. Is there a recording which has a continuo part in this symphony played discretely and then a louder solo, which would seem to be the best solution?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 21, 2014, 05:00:51 AM

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on March 20, 2014, 02:23:35 PM
Getting near the end of the my Haydn symphony listening project (all 106 in the correct order) (and have got a lot more used to the Austro-Hungarian Chamber Orchestra's style).

Re No.98, the one with the harpsichord obbligato in the finale, I'm a bit puzzled because none of the recordings I have heard seem to make a sensible decision here. As to the harpsichord continuo in the symphonies generally I'm not fussed, I can do without it, or I can do with it. I guess I'd say I'd like to hear it up to about the 70s, but not in the later works. However in 98 there is a part for harpsichord specified in the finale as an instrumental solo. All the recordings I have heard don't feature a harpsichord continuo part in the rest of the work and suddenly this solo appears. Surely if Haydn was conducting from the harpsichord he didn't just play it in the solo. Is there a recording which has a continuo part in this symphony played discretely and then a louder solo, which would seem to be the best solution?

My understanding (which could be outdated and disproved now) is that the sudden appearance of the harpischord was meant to be a joke, in which case, no, he wouldn't have been playing through the whole of the symphony.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on March 21, 2014, 07:27:58 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 21, 2014, 05:00:51 AM
My understanding (which could be outdated and disproved now) is that the sudden appearance of the harpischord was meant to be a joke, in which case, no, he wouldn't have been playing through the whole of the symphony.

Sarge

Someone quoting Groove's at IMSLP forums:

Quote"...but composers at London concerts about 1790–1800 directed from the piano, playing from the bass throughout, as Haydn is reported to have done in his London symphonies."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 21, 2014, 08:10:11 AM

Quote from: North Star on March 21, 2014, 07:27:58 AM
Someone quoting Groove's at IMSLP forums:...but composers at London concerts about 1790–1800 directed from the piano, playing from the bass throughout, as Haydn is reported to have done in his London symphonies.

And yet none of the versions I own of 98 use a keyboard continuo, including the HIPsters Kuijken and Minkowski. In fact Mink's notes claim that although Haydn was seated at the keyboard he didn't play (or direct), only coming in for the short obbligato solo at the end. Until we build a Wayback Machine, I guess we'll never know for sure what really happened that evening...or how Haydn expected his late symphonies to be performed.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2014, 08:15:18 AM

Quote from: North Star on March 21, 2014, 07:27:58 AM
Someone quoting Groove's at IMSLP forums:

The custom of playing keyboard continuo lingered on in London far after it was a dead dog in the rest of Europe. This is why Haydn was at the pianoforte all of his concerts, and he did indeed throw in a tinkle from time to time. Despite the London newspapers calling it 'directed from the harpsichord', this is just a linguistic archaism, in a concert hall situation like that, there actually was a conductor, he was there to add credibility for the audience. You can bet he had plenty to say in rehearsals though!

I can't say I can hear any continuo in my versions of 98, but I have a hard time hearing it in general. Harpsichords get lost in the mix, and even a fortepiano would have a tough go of it in an orchestra of 40 or more players. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 21, 2014, 09:01:25 AM

Yet another day when I find this one of the most interesting threads on GMG.

Carry on, gents.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on March 21, 2014, 09:50:43 AM

It is difficult to hear the continuo even in the smaller ensembles you find in the earlier symphonies. If it's present in a London symphony, I think only the performers are intended to hear it, and not the audience.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2014, 12:08:41 PM

Quote from: DavidW on March 21, 2014, 09:50:43 AM
It is difficult to hear the continuo even in the smaller ensembles you find in the earlier symphonies. If it's present in a London symphony, I think only the performers are intended to hear it, and not the audience.

True, and you know, the keyboard is intended to fill in the texture, not to sound like just a separate instrument. This is the root of Sarge's objection to Pinnock's Haydn, I believe. There is a difference between filling in texture and being another (leading) instrument in the band! :o

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 21, 2014, 01:02:42 PM

Thanks for all these comments re 98 and the harpsichord. I understand that the solo is a joke, I just think it would be funner if the harpsichord was dutifully tinkling at points in the work and then let rip in the solo, almost like a last blast for the orchestral continuo.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on March 21, 2014, 02:59:50 PM

That Haydn. Such a witty cad.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 21, 2014, 05:42:28 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2014, 12:08:41 PM
True, and you know, the keyboard is intended to fill in the texture, not to sound like just a separate instrument. This is the root of Sarge's objection to Pinnock's Haydn, I believe. There is a difference between filling in texture and being another (leading) instrument in the band! :o

8)

Never cared for Pinnock....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 21, 2014, 05:49:11 PM

Speaking of which, what is your folks' take on Dorati's Haydn cycle(?) ?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2014, 05:49:57 PM

Quote from: Bogey on March 21, 2014, 05:42:28 PM
Never cared for Pinnock....

Like him a lot as a soloist. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2014, 05:51:06 PM

Quote from: Bogey on March 21, 2014, 05:49:11 PM
Speaking of which, what is your folks' take on Dorati's Haydn cycle(?) ?

The operas are excellent. He had good soloists though, that helps a lot. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 21, 2014, 05:53:15 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2014, 05:51:06 PM
The operas are excellent. He had good soloists though, that helps a lot. :)

8)

Symphonies?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2014, 05:59:40 PM

Quote from: Bogey on March 21, 2014, 05:53:15 PM
Symphonies?

I've only heard a few of them, they show their age IMO, but you know what that's worth. For when they were recorded, they were light years better than any Haydn symphony recordings around, if only because they used critical editions which weren't available to earlier performers. If I was picking out a set for the purposes which you do, I would take Dorati any day over any of the others. However, if I was just looking for a set on modern instruments, I would take Fischer over any of the others available. I wouldn't be surprised if you were able to get the whole cycle on vinyl.

The operas are very good though! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 21, 2014, 06:08:34 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2014, 05:59:40 PM
I've only heard a few of them, they show their age IMO, but you know what that's worth. For when they were recorded, they were light years better than any Haydn symphony recordings around, if only because they used critical editions which weren't available to earlier performers. If I was picking out a set for the purposes which you do, I would take Dorati any day over any of the others. However, if I was just looking for a set on modern instruments, I would take Fischer over any of the others available. I wouldn't be surprised if you were able to get the whole cycle on vinyl.

The operas are very good though! :)

8)

Well, that might be he case. A shop has a number of the Dorati boxes collecting dust bunnies and the manager said I can have them for half off. A very fair price. However, I am still approaching over 100 bones since they have quite a few. I have Fischer's, so that may be where I need to cut bait and move on if I am not going to garner anything extra special. Thanks!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2014, 06:11:49 PM

Quote from: Bogey on March 21, 2014, 06:08:34 PM
Well, that might be he case. A shop has a number of the Dorati boxes collecting dust bunnies and the manager said I can have them for half off. A very fair price. However, I am still approaching over 100 bones since they have quite a few. I have Fischer's, so that may be where I need to cut bait and move on if I am not going to garner anything extra special. Thanks!

Well, modern instrument Haydn isn't my specialty, Bill, so you should seek the opinion of someone who has heard the set and compared them to others. I haven't the heart to do that. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 21, 2014, 06:14:59 PM

Maybe I will grab one. See if I can net my favorite (#77). Speaking of which, odd how such a beautiful piece has so few recordings.

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/albumList.jsp?name_id1=5170&name_role1=1&comp_id=76920&genre=66&bcorder=195

at least in print.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2014, 06:21:45 PM

Quote from: Bogey on March 21, 2014, 06:14:59 PM
Maybe I will grab one. See if I can net my favorite (#77). Speaking of which, odd how such a beautiful piece has so few recordings.

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/albumList.jsp?name_id1=5170&name_role1=1&comp_id=76920&genre=66&bcorder=195

at least in print.

I note that the Orpheus couple it with #44 in e. That has to be the pick of the litter I would think. Note that even the 9 they show are actually fewer: the Naxos is twice, the Dorati is twice, the Fischer is 3 times! That leaves Goodman and Orpheus, do actually just 5 versions there. :o

I prefer this one:

[asin]B000IJS0U0[/asin]

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/0d/32/ef5851c88da044a313d63210.L.jpg)

but they are raping you on the price these days. I bought it brand new on 9/24/2011 for $5.98. Used for $8.90 is not bad though. Damn, they sure like to take advantage! >:(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 21, 2014, 06:28:21 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 21, 2014, 08:10:11 AM
And yet none of the versions I own of 98 use a keyboard continuo, including the HIPsters Kuijken and Minkowski...

Went through my No. 98 recordings (8 total) and the only one that uses a keyboard throughout is Solti/LPO.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 21, 2014, 06:43:57 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2014, 06:21:45 PM
I note that the Orpheus couple it with #44 in e. That has to be the lick of the litter I would think. Note that even the 9 they show are actually fewer: the Naxos is twice, the Dorati is twice, the Fischer is 3 times! That leaves Goodman and Orpheus, do actually just 5 versions there. :o

I prefer this one:

[asin]B000IJS0U0[/asin]

(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/0d/32/ef5851c88da044a313d63210.L.jpg)

but they are raping you on the price these days. I bought it brand new on 9/24/2011 for $5.98. Used for $8.90 is not bad though. Damn, they sure like to take advantage! >:(

8)

I have that 77 spinning as I type. What a GREAT recording.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2014, 06:53:46 PM

Quote from: Bogey on March 21, 2014, 06:43:57 PM
I have that 77 spinning as I type. What a GREAT recording.

Life is good. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 21, 2014, 06:55:08 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2014, 06:53:46 PM
Life is good. :)

8)

Unless the only two 77 discs you own are Orpheus and Fischer. Which is me. ???

:D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2014, 06:58:00 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 21, 2014, 06:55:08 PM
Unless the only two 77 discs you own are Orpheus and Fischer. Which is me. ???

:D

I thought that Orpheus disk looked good. I have a few of theirs and I like them, actually. I have Fischer too, of course, but I can't remember how it does, I haven't heard it in a few years. Right now I'm queuing up some 98's to see how the continuo goes in them. I got a couple more that haven't been mentioned.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 21, 2014, 06:59:47 PM

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B009LNI0T0.01.L.jpg)

Does this set have the 76 and 77?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 21, 2014, 07:03:04 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2014, 06:58:00 PM
I thought that Orpheus disk looked good. I have a few of theirs and I like them, actually. I have Fischer too, of course, but I can't remember how it does, I haven't heard it in a few years. Right now I'm queuing up some 98's to see how the continuo goes in them. I got a couple more that haven't been mentioned.

8)

My 98s...

Solti/LPO,
Fischer,
Szell,
Minkowski,
Harnoncourt/RCO,
Norrington/Stuttgart,
Slatkin/Phil,
Koopman/Amsterdam BO.

Post which ones you have other than these, Gurn. 98 is one of my top 5 from Haydn's symphonies and would love to hear more HIP performances.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2014, 07:04:32 PM

Quote from: Bogey on March 21, 2014, 06:59:47 PM
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B009LNI0T0.01.L.jpg)

Does this set have the 76 and 77?

I don't know, L'Oiseau Lyre didn't publish it, they sold the rights to BBC, so maybe not. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 21, 2014, 07:06:17 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2014, 07:04:32 PM
I don't know, L'Oiseau Lyre didn't publish it, they sold the rights to BBC, so maybe not. :-\

8)

Karl had listed 76 from the set on the listening thread, but I cannot find it on the set.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2014, 07:06:31 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 21, 2014, 07:03:04 PM
My 98s...

Solti/LPO,
Fischer,
Szell,
Minkowski,
Harnoncourt/RCO,
Norrington/Stuttgart,
Slatkin/Phil,
Koopman/Amsterdam BO.

Post which ones you have other than these, Gurn. 98 is one of my top 5 from Haydn's symphonies and would love to hear more HIP performances.

I'm listening to Brüggen/Orchestra of the 18th Century right now. I don't hear any continuo in it, but it's a nice performance, I must say. It's one of those Philips Duos.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2014, 07:08:44 PM

Quote from: Bogey on March 21, 2014, 07:06:17 PM
Karl had listed 76 from the set on the listening thread, but I cannot find it on the set.

Well, I have the 10 boxes X 3, that disk plus the two London disks they did, so a total of 33. IIRC, that box claims to have 32 disks, so it looks dim. Karl may well be a Coloradan at heart... :D :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 21, 2014, 07:17:01 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2014, 07:08:44 PM
Well, I have the 10 boxes X 3, that disk plus the two London disks they did, so a total of 33. IIRC, that box claims to have 32 disks, so it looks dim. Karl may well be a Coloradan at heart... :D :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 21, 2014, 07:36:44 PM

Just purchased my 13th (I think ???) recording of the 45th. This time from Koopman and the Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra. Haven't really heard any samples from this recording, but have a good amount from Koopman and the ABO to know it should be a good one. I really find myself charmed by their disc of Haydn's symphonies Nos. 97 and 98, crisp and lively tempos, and nice detail that is presented from the winds, although that disc is on a different label (Challenge).
Oh, and Nos. 44 and 49 are on this one, which I think help round out a great trio of pieces as they are some of the more unique ones from Haydn.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PF5Nl63ZL._SL500_SY300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on March 21, 2014, 09:01:06 PM

The big Hogwood box stops at 75, according to the images at Amazon. 1-75, 94, 96, 100, 104, 107, 108.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 22, 2014, 05:08:21 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2014, 06:21:45 PM
I note that the Orpheus couple it with #44 in e. That has to be the pick of the litter I would think.

Certainly Monkey Greg and I like that one a great deal.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 22, 2014, 05:10:51 AM

Quote from: Bogey on March 21, 2014, 06:59:47 PM
(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B009LNI0T0.01.L.jpg)

Does this set have the 76 and 77?

No, I have the 76/77 annex which Gurn lists here:

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2014, 06:21:45 PM
(http://g-ecx.images-amazon.com/images/G/01/ciu/0d/32/ef5851c88da044a313d63210.L.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 22, 2014, 05:20:38 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 22, 2014, 05:10:51 AM
No, I have the 76/77 annex which Gurn lists here:

Thanks, Karl. Never know with these sets what you might find in them.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 22, 2014, 05:26:29 AM

G'day, Bill!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 22, 2014, 05:30:12 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 22, 2014, 05:26:29 AM
G'day, Bill!

Hope all is well there. We are waiting on a blast of snow, so I will just put on some Haydn and pretend I am huddled down in The House of Esterházy.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 22, 2014, 05:39:50 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 22, 2014, 05:08:21 AM
Certainly Monkey Greg and I like that one a great deal.

I love the Orpheus/Haydn combo, they were my first Haydn symphony purchases years ago. I realize they are probably quite far from HIP, in fact their final Adagio from the Farewell is more Romantic than Classical to these ears, but the size of the band I think sounds perfect for the music.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 22, 2014, 05:55:18 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 21, 2014, 08:10:11 AM
And yet none of the versions I own of 98 use a keyboard continuo, including the HIPsters Kuijken and Minkowski.

I have to revise that statement. A close listen to Jochum's 98s reveals a harpsichord at certain points in the last three movements. It's weird, though, because it doesn't seem to be playing continuously but rather suddenly appears and then quickly disappears. Of course the poor instrument is competing against the Berlin and London Philharmonics. Maybe it's just buried most of the time. That doesn't explain its absence in softer passages though. Curious.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 22, 2014, 06:03:36 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 21, 2014, 07:36:44 PM
Just purchased my 13th (I think ???) recording of the 45th. This time from Koopman and the Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra. Haven't really heard any samples from this recording, but have a good amount from Koopman and the ABO to know it should be a good one. I really find myself charmed by their disc of Haydn's symphonies Nos. 97 and 98, crisp and lively tempos, and nice detail that is presented from the winds, although that disc is on a different label (Challenge).
Oh, and Nos. 44 and 49 are on this one, which I think help round out a great trio of pieces as they are some of the more unique ones from Haydn.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PF5Nl63ZL._SL500_SY300_.jpg)

Greg,
I am quite fond of that Koopman 44, 45, 49 disk you picture, although I have it on the Apex re-release shown here:

[asin]B000071WE7[/asin]

You may feel comfortable buying it clips-unheard, especially since this release lists for less than $4 brand new on AMP. You can never have enough versions of those 3 symphonies, so this particular coupling (tripling?) is ideal. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 22, 2014, 06:30:17 AM

Quote from: Bogey on March 21, 2014, 06:48:49 PM
Uh-oh. Can you say, "Reference disc?" 8)

Yes, Knapp's 100 arrived yesterday and it is definitely some kind of reference ;D

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/nov2013/Knappconducts.jpg)

Quote from: Bogey on March 16, 2014, 12:40:32 PM
Knappertsbush's Military is a fascinating document, marked by a creative and deeply personal interpretive touch – each movement is distended by a mammoth tempo shift at its mid-point, with varying impact. The first, following an extremely swift introduction and rather normal exposition nearly grinds to a halt for the far slower development, as if to signal with a change of pace the importance of Haydn's enlargement of that section's role within sonata form. (To further offset the development, Knappertsbusch inserts a long pause before the recapitulation, which then accelerates wildly to the coda.) Half-way through the allegretto, Knappertsbusch drops the tempo, as if to illustrate the dual nature of the Turkish music's evocation of war – both celebratory and then somber. Given a choice, Knappertsbush seems to favor the latter, as the treble portions of his Turkish music can barely be heard, and added pauses between phrases of the trumpet fanfare and slashing downbeats in the following measures all portend doubt and despair. That feeling is extended in the menuetto, whose spirited dance is brought to a standstill each of the three times the opening section is heard before picking up again. And to complete the scheme, Knappertsbusch literally halves the tempo at the mid-point of the finale. Whether viewed nowadays as daring and meaningful or merely quirky and frustrating, this remains not only the first, but the most quixotic, personal and stylistically challenging (and perhaps perplexing) Military on record (now on a Preiser CD).

That description is accurate. I received exactly what I was expecting. The most startling interpretive choice he mentions is the sudden and drastic slow down for the second half of the slow movement: music that sounds like it should accompany toy soldiers becomes something grim and foreboding, just like real war.

I love it; so different than any other Military I've heard. Thanks to both you and Gurn for providing the conversation that turned me on to this CD.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 22, 2014, 06:32:23 AM

You are welcome. Glad it worked out. I cannot wait for its arrival.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 22, 2014, 07:06:10 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 22, 2014, 06:03:36 AM
Greg,
I am quite fond of that Koopman 44, 45, 49 disk you picture, although I have it on the Apex re-release shown here:

[asin]B000071WE7[/asin]

You may feel comfortable buying it clips-unheard, especially since this release lists for less than $4 brand new on AMP. You can never have enough versions of those 3 symphonies, so this particular coupling (tripling?) is ideal. :)

8)

I may have skipped over it because of the small Koopman/ABO writing on the cover, I ordered the original Erato release used so depending on its condition I'll keep the re-release in mind.
Thanks, Gurn!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 22, 2014, 05:34:46 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 22, 2014, 07:06:10 AM
I may have skipped over it because of the small Koopman/ABO writing on the cover, I ordered the original Erato release used so depending on its condition I'll keep the re-release in mind.
Thanks, Gurn!

You're welcome, Greg. Yes, that odd habit Warner developed with Apex of printing the performers' names so small they are nearly unreadable has cost them a couple of sales on eBay, as I won't buy a disk where I can't figure out who is performing. Of course, eBay should have a policy of requiring vendors to write that stuff down, but the world isn't perfect, by MY standards! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 22, 2014, 05:37:22 PM

I was also busily listening to that Koopman disk today while writing this essay, which coincidentally is about the two symphonies of 1770, #43 & 44. You can read it here if you are interested;

Heck of a chamber symphony, Herr Haydn! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/03/1770-the-music-part-1-.html)

Hope you enjoy it and especially that you pull out the CD and have a listen to the pair.

Thanks,
GB 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Willow Pattern on March 23, 2014, 02:38:46 AM

Just noticed this soon to be released box which I thought some people here might be interested in:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81UljKImnKL._SL1400_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 23, 2014, 06:27:16 AM

Quote from: Conor on March 23, 2014, 02:38:46 AM
Just noticed this soon to be released box which I thought some people here might be interested in:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81UljKImnKL._SL1400_.jpg)

Thanks for the heads-up, Conor.

Those who have the Big Box, of course, have all these. For those who don't, these are good to very good versions of the concertos. The violin concertos & organ concertos are especially worthwhile. The fortepiano concertos are very good, but the lire concertos are rather unique, originally issued quite a long time ago, made with a real lire organnizate and OOP for a long time. Very well performed, too. Certainly if you don't have these otherwise, Brilliant's price won't be worth trying to find excuses to miss. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 23, 2014, 09:42:24 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 23, 2014, 06:27:16 AM
Thanks for the heads-up, Conor.

Those who have the Big Box, of course, have all these. For those who don't, these are good to very good versions of the concertos. The violin concertos & organ concertos are especially worthwhile. The fortepiano concertos are very good, but the lire concertos are rather unique, originally issued quite a long time ago, made with a real lire organnizate and OOP for a long time. Very well performed, too. Certainly if you don't have these otherwise, Brilliant's price won't be worth trying to find excuses to miss. :)

8)

What Gurn said.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 23, 2014, 12:07:19 PM

A boat load of historical Haydn.

http://www.pristineclassical.com/LargeWorks/indexes/composerH.html

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 23, 2014, 12:13:46 PM

Quote from: Bogey on March 23, 2014, 12:07:19 PM
A boat load of historical Haydn.

http://www.pristineclassical.com/LargeWorks/indexes/composerH.html

Yup, a treasure trove. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 23, 2014, 04:01:12 PM

I've just noticed that soemone has put up a large number of Donati's symphony recordings on YouTube. You can extract very decent MP3s from them, though each symphony is one track, not 4 (or 3).

I downloaded his 103 to hear the passage in the finale that Haydn later deleted and which Dorati plays, and I was very impressed by the recording*. It must have been heaven to have been a Haydn lover in the 60s and 70s when these recordings came out.

I think I'll be downloading a few more, just to have comparisons with other recordings I have.

** as for the deleted passage I think it's one of those cases where either version sounds fine.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 23, 2014, 04:09:33 PM

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on March 23, 2014, 04:01:12 PM
I've just noticed that soemone has put up a large number of Donati's symphony recordings on YouTube. You can extract very decent MP3s from them, though each symphony is one track, not 4 (or 3).

I downloaded his 103 to hear the passage in the finale that Haydn later deleted and which Dorati plays, and I was very impressed by the recording*. It must have been heaven to have been a Haydn lover in the 60s and 70s when these recordings came out.

I think I'll be downloading a few more, just to have comparisons with other recordings I have.

** as for the deleted passage I think it's one of those cases where either version sounds fine.

I just have a couple(?) of the Mercury releases. I need to revisit them as well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 23, 2014, 04:29:58 PM

Quote from: Bogey on March 23, 2014, 04:09:33 PM
I just have a couple(?) of the Mercury releases. I need to revisit them as well.

The Double Decca of the 'Paris' Symphonies was my first Haydn purchase of the modern era. Later on, I got the 'Weekend Classics' Decca release of the 'Morning Noon & Night' Symphonies. They are not my favorites now, but when I got them I was delighted. Certainly nothing wrong with them that a little less age wouldn't have resolved. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 24, 2014, 11:53:09 AM

Well, we cannot have any breaks in our posting here, so today, if you do not mind direct me to anything you wrote or wanted to write about Papa's two horn concertos as I listen in. :D

Now playing:

Horn Concerto No.1 in D major, Hob.VIId:3
Horn Concerto No.2 in D major, Hob.VIId:4

Iona Brown with ASMF. Soloist: Hermann Baumann

(http://www.okarinamusique.com/okarinaplus/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Hermann-Baumann.jpg)

Baumann is an excellent musician, both as a soloist and as a collaborator in chamber works. The hallmarks of his playing are singing tone – he can sound operatic! – and the smoothness and evenness of his tone production, even on 'authentic' instruments." He pioneered the playing of early baroque and classical hand horns in performance, and his recovery from a serious stroke has been astonishing and inspiring.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 24, 2014, 12:01:38 PM

Quote from: Bogey on March 24, 2014, 11:53:09 AM
Well, we cannot have any breaks in our posting here, so today, if you do not mind direct me to anything you wrote or wanted to write about Papa's two horn concertos as I listen in. :D

Now playing:

Horn Concerto No.1 in D major, Hob.VIId:3
Horn Concerto No.2 in D major, Hob.VIId:4

Iona Brown with ASMF. Soloist: Hermann Baumann

(http://www.okarinamusique.com/okarinaplus/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Hermann-Baumann.jpg)

Baumann is an excellent musician, both as a soloist and as a collaborator in chamber works. The hallmarks of his playing are singing tone – he can sound operatic! – and the smoothness and evenness of his tone production, even on 'authentic' instruments." He pioneered the playing of early baroque and classical hand horns in performance, and his recovery from a serious stroke has been astonishing and inspiring.

Yes, Baumann IS excellent!

I wrote this essay a few months back, on the concertos for his soloists. The first horn concerto (Hob 3) was for Joseph Leutgeb, also Mozart's hornist for the concertos and Horn Quintet.

Solo concertos of 1762 (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2013/11/1762-the-music-part-2-nice-to-have-a-composer-friend.html)

Hope you enjoy it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 24, 2014, 12:10:26 PM

Thanks! I love wind stuff! Some just cannot get enough of the keyboards or the string chamber works. For me, it's winds.....small and large ensemble.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 24, 2014, 12:36:42 PM

Is it just me or does Fischer do a crappy job of bringing forth the winds during the 14th....or do I have my numbers confused.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 24, 2014, 03:03:01 PM

Quote from: Bogey on March 24, 2014, 12:10:26 PM
Thanks! I love wind stuff! Some just cannot get enough of the keyboards or the string chamber works. For me, it's winds.....small and large ensemble.

Yeah, I'm pretty fond of them too, even as much as Sonic Dave! :) Leutgeb was quite the hornist, I guess. Here's another one mainly on winds. You gotta figure it's horns, that was his trademark, and fully 25% of his orchestra at times!

The Horn Also Rises (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2013/11/1763-the-horn-also-rises.html)

Some of the works mentioned near the end, the cassation and two symphonies, are worth a good listen, as long as you have your Fischer pulled out, and the L'Archibudelli, of course. :)

8)

Quote from: Bogey on March 24, 2014, 12:36:42 PM
Is it just me or does Fischer do a crappy job of bringing forth the winds during the 14th....or do I have my numbers confused.

Uhngh, don't know, not sure I ever listened to it. Which movement/part? All of it?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on March 25, 2014, 06:05:51 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2014, 12:08:41 PM
True, and you know, the keyboard is intended to fill in the texture, not to sound like just a separate instrument. This is the root of Sarge's objection to Pinnock's Haydn, I believe. There is a difference between filling in texture and being another (leading) instrument in the band! :o

8)

I never warmed to the Pinnock as I thought I would. I did not know why until I did a comparison to Hogwood. Then I sold the Pinnock. Unsettling as I have Pinnock's Bach and Mozart, but not Hogwood's.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 25, 2014, 06:32:25 AM

Quote from: Ken B on March 25, 2014, 06:05:51 AM
I never warmed to the Pinnock as I thought I would. I did not know why until I did a comparison to Hogwood. Then I sold the Pinnock. Unsettling as I have Pinnock's Bach and Mozart, but not Hogwood's.

Well, I had a brain fart when I wrote that post, I meant Goodman but wrote Pinnock. That said, Pinnock is an early representative in the PI business, they are a little bit stiff, so to speak, they don't have the flexibility in tempo that makes for a more interesting performance. One of our members calls his Mozart as being like a sewing machine! I don't think they are quite that over the top, but I find the Hogwood more to my taste. Some of the groups that have done only a few symphonies are excellent too, like Anima Eterna/Immerseel, and Arion Baroque/Cooper. Early times they were so intent on following the script that they forgot to be musical with it sometimes. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on March 25, 2014, 06:44:05 AM

I think that Pinnock is great in baroque era music. I've found him a bit stiff in Mozart, have not heard his Haydn. I want to though. Contrary to recent posts on this thread, the forum consensus on his Storm and Stress set is highly positive. That is what I have noted on different threads even years apart.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on March 25, 2014, 06:52:10 AM

Quote from: DavidW on March 25, 2014, 06:44:05 AM
I think that Pinnock is great in baroque era music. I've found him a bit stiff in Mozart, have not heard his Haydn. I want to though. Contrary to recent posts on this thread, the forum consensus on his Storm and Stress set is highly positive. That is what I have noted on different threads even years apart.

I usually do not care for him....threw him under the bus on occasions, but that being said, I still use the recording by recording test for my ears. That is why I am glad to have listened to his Handel. However, before grabbing box set, I would need to sample.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 25, 2014, 07:16:19 AM

Quote from: DavidW on March 25, 2014, 06:44:05 AM
I think that Pinnock is great in baroque era music.

Quote from: Bogey on March 25, 2014, 06:52:10 AM
That is why I am glad to have listened to his Handel.

Pinnock's Fireworks is the greatest I've ever heard, with a unique drama. No one else even comes close. Utterly satisfying.

I'm not averse to his Mozart Symphony box either, especially the pre-Little G minor juvenilia. The few samples I've compared to Hogwood, though, show Hogwood to be a bit more interesting, more rough hewn.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 25, 2014, 07:34:28 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 25, 2014, 06:32:25 AM
Well, I had a brain fart when I wrote that post, I meant Goodman but wrote Pinnock.

Actually I have objections to the harpischord in both Goodman and Pinnock's Haydn although for different reasons. With Goodman the problem is the prominence of his instrument; not every recording is as bad but too many are artificially enhanced and unrealistic: way too loud. His relentless "pounding" in fast forte passages can be quite annoying (to my ears). Pinnock's harpsichord is set realistcally in the mix, thank god. Where it annoys is in its competition with the notes Haydn wrote. I want to hear Haydn, not the improvisations and noodlings of the player.

That said, I still enjoy their very different takes on the music and play both as much as Hogwood. Variety is good 8)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 25, 2014, 06:32:25 AM
Some of the groups that have done only a few symphonies are excellent too, like Anima Eterna/Immerseel, and Arion Baroque/Cooper. Early times they were so intent on following the script that they forgot to be musical with it sometimes.

Following your blog suggestion of Immerseel's 44, I sampled at Amazon. It sounds great, and yes, very "musical." He's not afraid to vary tempo and dynamics for dramatic emphasis. Fey is similar although even more extreme.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 25, 2014, 07:53:34 AM

Quote from: DavidW on March 25, 2014, 06:44:05 AM
I think that Pinnock is great in baroque era music. I've found him a bit stiff in Mozart, have not heard his Haydn. I want to though. Contrary to recent posts on this thread, the forum consensus on his Storm and Stress set is highly positive. That is what I have noted on different threads even years apart.

Well, I'm not saying I dislike it, David, it just isn't very loose, if you take my meaning. The playing is wonderful in terms of virtuosity. Sometimes I wonder if they are using a metronome, though. Boy, I say one negative thing in 12 years and someone is right there to pick it up. :D :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 25, 2014, 07:57:51 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 25, 2014, 07:34:28 AM
Actually I have objections to the harpischord in both Goodman and Pinnock's Haydn although for different reasons. With Goodman the problem is the prominence of his instrument; not every recording is as bad but too many are artificially enhanced and unrealistic: way too loud. His relentless "pounding" in fast forte passages can be quite annoying (to my ears). Pinnock's harpsichord is set realistcally in the mix, thank god. Where it annoys is in its competition with the notes Haydn wrote. I want to hear Haydn, not the improvisations and noodlings of the player.

That said, I still enjoy their very different takes on the music and play both as much as Hogwood. Variety is good 8)

Following your blog suggestion of Immerseel's 44, I sampled at Amazon. It sounds great, and yes, very "musical." He's not afraid to vary tempo and dynamics for dramatic emphasis. Fey is similar although even more extreme.

Sarge

I wonder if he isn't capitalizing on the improvisational aspect of unnotated figured bass. You know, ornamenting in a way which I am sure some people did in the day. Still, ornaments need to be tastefully done, and really, I think they should be minimal when your job is to fill the texture, not be a soloist. All that said, I can barely hear it anyway so it doesn't bother me much. :)

I really think you would like the Immerseel, Sarge. With 44 & 45 and Concerto Hob 11 on there, the coupling is hard to beat, in addition to the performance itself. I like the Zig-Zag label, they usually do a great job on things like SQ. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 25, 2014, 11:07:27 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 25, 2014, 07:57:51 AM
I wonder if he isn't capitalizing on the improvisational aspect of unnotated figured bass. You know, ornamenting in a way which I am sure some people did in the day. Still, ornaments need to be tastefully done, and really, I think they should be minimal when your job is to fill the texture, not be a soloist. All that said, I can barely hear it anyway so it doesn't bother me much. :)

I really think you would like the Immerseel, Sarge. With 44 & 45 and Concerto Hob 11 on there, the coupling is hard to beat, in addition to the performance itself. I like the Zig-Zag label, they usually do a great job on things like SQ. :)

8)

A big +1 for the Haydn/Immerseel disc of 44/45, I purchased it off a Gurn rec over a year ago, definitely becoming a favorite recording of both works.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 25, 2014, 03:04:42 PM

1770 saw the remainder of the Op 9 quartets, and the super little Duos for Violin & Viola, too. As if the symphonies weren't enough! I put a little background together on them, check them out if you'd like. :)

Too serious to love, they say (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/03/1770-the-music-part-2.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on March 26, 2014, 04:03:23 AM

QuoteSince I am one of the intended audience for this art, I take it rather personally when I am told that my 'great enjoyment in listening to this or that piece of music is sadly misplaced, because actually it sucks'.

Hehe. Right on.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 26, 2014, 04:16:24 AM

Quote from: chasmaniac on March 26, 2014, 04:03:23 AM
Hehe. Right on.

:D You too, eh! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 26, 2014, 05:10:21 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 25, 2014, 07:57:51 AM
I really think you would like the Immerseel, Sarge. With 44 & 45 and Concerto Hob 11 on there, the coupling is hard to beat

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 25, 2014, 11:07:27 AM
A big +1 for the Haydn/Immerseel disc of 44/45, I purchased it off a Gurn rec over a year ago, definitely becoming a favorite recording of both works.

I ordered it, and an hour ago Amazon confirmed shipment. Should be here tomorrow 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 26, 2014, 05:16:13 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 26, 2014, 05:10:21 AM
I ordered it, and an hour ago Amazon confirmed shipment. Should be here tomorrow 8)

Sarge

Excellent. Hope you will let us know how it does for you. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 26, 2014, 05:21:50 AM

I've read about half the new blog post (and will return to read the rest); well done, O Gurn!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 26, 2014, 05:25:38 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 26, 2014, 05:21:50 AM
I've read about half the new blog post (and will return to read the rest); well done, O Gurn!

Thank you, Karl. I like all those works, it's irritating to read Landon saying there is no reason for them to be popular. >:(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 26, 2014, 05:51:03 AM

It is (I think) doubly annoying, in that he did so much important work for Haydn musicologically, to have him needlessly talking any of the music down . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 26, 2014, 05:54:59 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 26, 2014, 05:51:03 AM
It is (I think) doubly annoying, in that he did so much important work for Haydn musicologically, to have him needlessly talking any of the music down . . . .

Wait til you hear his take on the symphonies post-S&D/pre-Paris! It is stunning that he didn't seem to have any grip on them at all. Oh well, we all have our blind spots. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on March 26, 2014, 09:15:34 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 25, 2014, 07:16:19 AM
Pinnock's Fireworks is the greatest I've ever heard, with a unique drama. No one else even comes close. Utterly satisfying.

I'm not averse to his Mozart Symphony box either, especially the pre-Little G minor juvenilia. The few samples I've compared to Hogwood, though, show Hogwood to be a bit more interesting, more rough hewn.

Sarge

Yes, I like Pinnock's Handel and Bach a LOT. I described my reaction to his Haydn. I got his Mozart symphonies dirt cheap, $20 for the complete set at a brick and mortar, but am not 100% happy with it and cannot put my finger on why. Maybe the the why is I'm a Hoggy guy.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 26, 2014, 10:14:17 AM

Quote from: Ken B on March 26, 2014, 09:15:34 AM
Yes, I like Pinnock's Handel and Bach a LOT. I described my reaction to his Haydn. I got his Mozart symphonies dirt cheap, $20 for the complete set at a brick and mortar, but am not 100% happy with it and cannot put my finger on why. Maybe the the why is I'm a Hoggy guy.

I believe you would be delighted with Hogwood's Mozart. At 19 disks, it was the first 'big box' I ever bought. Back then, when it was first released, the $150+ nearly knocked me over. I'm delighted with it now though. You can get it for <100 nowadays, as I've seen in the 'Purchases' thread. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on March 26, 2014, 07:30:21 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 26, 2014, 10:14:17 AM
I believe you would be delighted with Hogwood's Mozart. At 19 disks, it was the first 'big box' I ever bought. Back then, when it was first released, the $150+ nearly knocked me over. I'm delighted with it now though. You can get it for <100 nowadays, as I've seen in the 'Purchases' thread. :)

8)

I forgot again, why is it twice the size of the other ones? Does it include all of the serenades as well?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on March 26, 2014, 07:35:18 PM

Quote from: DavidW on March 26, 2014, 07:30:21 PM
I forgot again, why is it twice the size of the other ones? Does it include all of the serenades as well?

Not sure if it's all the serenades, but there's at least a couple in there. But it also includes the "sinfonias" that did not make it into the Official Canon of Forty One.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 27, 2014, 04:25:12 AM

Quote from: DavidW on March 26, 2014, 07:30:21 PM
I forgot again, why is it twice the size of the other ones? Does it include all of the serenades as well?

Not the full serenades, but the symphonies which he made and Leopold got published which were reduced from the serenade by removing the concerto parts. You can take a serenade and make a full symphony and a concerto out of it (usually violin, like the Haffner is).

In addition, Mozart rescored several of his symphonies by adding instruments. Both versions are included in that box, and so you get a different take with the different instrumentation.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: HIPster on March 27, 2014, 05:47:13 AM

Dropping into this thread is so very rewarding! Thanks Gurn and all who post.

Listened to Pinnock's Sym. 46, 45 and 42 last night. Very nice! I'll probably play Tafelmusik's "Farewell" tonight.

And of course I just had to purchase some Haydn :laugh:, in this case this one from Hans-Martin Linde, which I've had my eye on for some time:
[asin]B000025KIE[/asin]

Gordo turned me on to Linde's Brandenburg's a while back and I am very taken with them. Seems logical to me to move into Haydn territory next. . .
;)

With Prime shipping, this should arrive on Saturday and so I'll get some weekend listening with it - always a bonus!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 27, 2014, 06:23:44 AM

Quote from: HIPster on March 27, 2014, 05:47:13 AM
Dropping into this thread is so very rewarding! Thanks Gurn and all who post.

Listened to Pinnock's Sym. 46, 45 and 42 last night. Very nice! I'll probably play Tafelmusik's "Farewell" tonight.

And of course I just had to purchase some Haydn :laugh:, in this case this one from Hans-Martin Linde, which I've had my eye on for some time:
[asin]B000025KIE[/asin]

Gordo turned me on to Linde's Brandenburg's a while back and I am very taken with them. Seems logical to me to move into Haydn territory next. . .
;)

With Prime shipping, this should arrive on Saturday and so I'll get some weekend listening with it - always a bonus!

Glad to have you! :)

I love that Linde disk. It is all early stuff, like mid to late 1750's, very well played. It's a long way from the London Symphonies, but sometimes that's a good thing. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on March 27, 2014, 06:55:25 AM

This is on its way to me now (I posted it the other day in the Purchases thread)
[asin]B001HU91TI[/asin]

I have a few of Consortium's CDs already, most importantly their Beethoven set, so I'm looking forward to matching this against the Haydn Wien Sinfonietta on BIS I already have.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 27, 2014, 06:56:03 AM

Nice av, Jeffrey!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on March 27, 2014, 06:57:33 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 27, 2014, 06:56:03 AM
Nice av, Jeffrey!

Mingus?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 27, 2014, 06:58:51 AM

Monk

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 27, 2014, 06:59:20 AM

Mind you, I'd enjoy a Mingus av about just as well . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 27, 2014, 07:08:59 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 27, 2014, 06:55:25 AM
This is on its way to me now (I posted it the other day in the Purchases thread)
[asin]B001HU91TI[/asin]

I have a few of Consortium's CDs already, most importantly their Beethoven set, so I'm looking forward to matching this against the Haydn Wien Sinfonietta on BIS I already have.

It's a nice box. Most of the works are 'attributed to', not actual Haydn, but there are a modest amount of authentic works in there too. Of course, Sinfonietta Wien only do the authentic ones. In addition, CC is not PI, not that it detracts, Klöcker is very good about playing in a period style, despite being on modern instruments. I'm pleased I have that box, I think you will be too. ANd I am very fond of my Beethoven set by them, and a little Schubert I have too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on March 27, 2014, 07:15:18 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 27, 2014, 07:08:59 AM
Klöcker is very good about playing in a period style, despite being on modern instruments. I'm pleased I have that box, I think you will be too. ANd I am very fond of my Beethoven set by them, and a little Schubert I have too. :)

8)

Yes, I have CPO discs of them playing Krommer and Pleyel. Solid band.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 27, 2014, 07:25:37 AM

Thread Duty:

At last, I made a point of making sure I had the DRD disc with the B^b symphony, № 98 in the car for my (short, but in this case sufficient) drive to the train station. I listened to the Finale. Presto.

First, I found to my pleasure that I have listened to it before! I don't know about any of you, but I am still a great distance from any ability to recall any but a small few of the symphonies. Though they are all expert and enjoyable when I listen to them!

Second, the appearance of the harpsichord in two passages (are there more, and was I inattentive? . . . well, I was driving . . .) delight me no end.

And . . . the three of us had an errand which necessitated a drive to Cambridge last night, and a longer trip than normal, as it was still the hour of the evening commute. No matter: we had Hogwood and the Hornsignal with us, and it was grand to share the exquisite Adagio variations with them. With Haydn in the car, no car journey is tedious!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 27, 2014, 08:00:40 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 27, 2014, 07:25:37 AM
Thread Duty:

At last, I made a point of making sure I had the DRD disc with the B^b symphony, № 98 in the car for my (short, but in this case sufficient) drive to the train station. I listened to the Finale. Presto.

First, I found to my pleasure that I have listened to it before! I don't know about any of you, but I am still a great distance from any ability to recall any but a small few of the symphonies. Though they are all expert and enjoyable when I listen to them!

Second, the appearance of the harpsichord in two passages (are there more, and was I inattentive? . . . well, I was driving . . .) delight me no end.

And . . . the three of us had an errand which necessitated a drive to Cambridge last night, and a longer trip than normal, as it was still the hour of the evening commute. No matter: we had Hogwood and the Hornsignal with us, and it was grand to share the exquisite Adagio variations with them. With Haydn in the car, no car journey is tedious!

Thanks for sharing, Karl. Haydn and car trips do make a great combo!
98 is a top 5 Haydn Symphony for me, mostly for the gorgeous Adagio and the charmingly inventive finale. It was the mini keyboard recital at the end of the piece that sealed it for me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on March 27, 2014, 09:10:23 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 27, 2014, 07:25:37 AM

First, I found to my pleasure that I have listened to it before!

Did you remember, or do you mark the ones you listened to in a big box by pulling a hair out of your beard and sticking it on the cd? ;D I have trouble remembering what I have and have not listened to in a big box.

QuoteAnd . . . the three of us had an errand which necessitated a drive to Cambridge last night, and a longer trip than normal, as it was still the hour of the evening commute. No matter: we had Hogwood and the Hornsignal with us, and it was grand to share the exquisite Adagio variations with them. With Haydn in the car, no car journey is tedious!

I think that the Hornsignal is the highlight of the Hogwood box.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 27, 2014, 10:25:08 AM

Quote from: DavidW on March 27, 2014, 09:10:23 AM
Did you remember, or do you mark the ones you listened to in a big box by pulling a hair out of your beard and sticking it on the cd? ;D I have trouble remembering what I have and have not listened to in a big box.

I have no such issue. I just listen to the whole ting again, no harm done. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 27, 2014, 10:38:45 AM

That's the way!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Roberto on March 27, 2014, 11:22:05 PM

Quote from: DavidW on March 27, 2014, 09:10:23 AM
Did you remember, or do you mark the ones you listened to in a big box by pulling a hair out of your beard and sticking it on the cd? ;D I have trouble remembering what I have and have not listened to in a big box.

If I have a big box I listened to the CDs in order. If I completely listened to a CD I put it at the bottom of the box. When I finished the box the 1st CD will be on the top again. (Unfortunately I have no enough time to listen to music so a bix box could take months to complete. :()

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 28, 2014, 02:06:28 AM

Davey's question is much to the point . . . at this time, I am not sure where I stand (with as-yet-unlistened-to CDs) in either the Hogwood or DRD boxes.

I just know that, whatever I pull out, it will be wonderful music, and splendidly performed :)

Title: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 28, 2014, 02:59:29 AM

Cross post from listening thread...

A few from Haydn for the morning. No.98 from Harnoncourt/RCO. Great performance, with an ending that took me by surprise at first. Harnoncourt pumps the brakes quite a bit right before the keyboard entrance, a little jarring if you're looking for a continuous pace towards the final chords. But it actually makes the keyboard entrance even more delightful and sweet.
Then Nos. 2 and 3 from the Op.76 quartets performed by The Lindsays. Which is becoming a top choice for the 76 quartets. The Lindsays offer the perfect blend of balance, crispness, intensity and individual interpretation.

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/28/qudyhada.jpg)(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/03/28/gegysyta.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 28, 2014, 07:10:17 AM

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/nov2013/haydn4445PCimmerseel.jpg)

I've heard each work twice now. Although I haven't done comparisons yet I can see this becoming a favorite recording of all three. I don't think I've enjoyed the Piano Concerto quite this much before. Of course I appreciate hearing the symphonies with no amorous skeletons on the roof :D Immerseel, in the liner notes, quotes James Webster on that point, agreeing with him. I like too his decision on the size of the orchestra, varying the forces employed for each symphony. Works nicely, I think.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 28, 2014, 07:27:11 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 28, 2014, 07:10:17 AM
(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/nov2013/haydn4445PCimmerseel.jpg)

I've heard each work twice now. Although I haven't done comparisons yet I can see this becoming a favorite recording of all three. I don't think I've enjoyed the Piano Concerto quite this much before. Of course I appreciate hearing the symphonies with no amorous skeletons on the roof :D Immerseel, in the liner notes, quotes James Webster on that point, agreeing with him. I like too his decision on the size of the orchestra, varying the forces employed for each symphony. Works nicely, I think.

Sarge

I'm delighted, Sarge. Last week when I was writing the essay on #44 I listened to every version I had, a few times each, and came away with this one at the top of the heap, reinforcing my earlier placement of it there 2 years ago. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 28, 2014, 06:07:17 PM

Just published my latest blog installment. This time I wanted to take a look at the music of 1770 written for the home. There's a little bit of everything this year!

Serious and not so much (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/03/1770-the-music-part-3-.html)

Have a look if you care to. Love to discuss. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 28, 2014, 06:08:13 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 28, 2014, 07:27:11 AM
I'm delighted, Sarge. Last week when I was writing the essay on #44 I listened to every version I had, a few times each, and came away with this one at the top of the heap, reinforcing my earlier placement of it there 2 years ago. :)

8)

Any chance of more Haydn from the Immerseel/Anima combo?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 28, 2014, 06:13:49 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 28, 2014, 06:08:13 PM
Any chance of more Haydn from the Immerseel/Anima combo?

I don't know. Other than this one disk, they surprisingly stayed away from more Haydn. I haven't a clue what they are up to now, perhaps someone knows. That would be great! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on March 28, 2014, 06:25:37 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 28, 2014, 06:08:13 PM
Any chance of more Haydn from the Immerseel/Anima combo?

No, AFAIK they haven't recorded more symphonies, just this 2007 "Missa Cellensis":

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4009350832473.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/rear/0/4009350832473.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 28, 2014, 07:07:33 PM

Quote from: Gordo on March 28, 2014, 06:25:37 PM
No, AFAIK they haven't recorded more symphonies, just this 2007 "Missa Cellensis":

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4009350832473.jpg) (http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/rear/0/4009350832473.jpg)

Doh! I was thinking just of instrumental music and completely forgot about my favorite version of that mass! Thanks for prodding my memory, Gordito! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on March 28, 2014, 07:37:49 PM

I've been trying to expand my listening habits and since I love 20th century music so much (my trio is Bartok, Ravel, and Ligeti >:D) I've been listening to more and more "modern" stuff. I've found actually quite a lot that I like, but I realized that I should look back, too. There seems to be an enthusiastic group of Haydn fans on this board so I figure that I should give him a shot. I listened to one of the Haydn "Composer of the Week" podcasts from BBC Radio3 and enjoyed some of the samples of music played there. I don't care much for Mozart, but Haydn seemed much more interesting. His melodies seemed less "straightforward", or at least that was the impression that I got. I also understand that he was considerably experimental in his time. Can anyone here recommend a few of his symphonies or concertos that I might possibly enjoy and/or that would be a good starting place? I'm more interested in larger-scale works than chamber music literature.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 28, 2014, 07:39:28 PM

Quote from: EigenUser on March 28, 2014, 07:37:49 PM
Can anyone here recommend a few of his symphonies or concertos that I might possibly enjoy and/or that would be a good starting place? I'm more interested in larger-scale works than chamber music literature.

You've come to the right Haus. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on March 28, 2014, 07:41:05 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 28, 2014, 07:07:33 PM
Doh! I was thinking just of instrumental music and completely forgot about my favorite version of that mass! Thanks for prodding my memory, Gordito! :)

8)

My pleasure, dear friend. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on March 28, 2014, 07:42:21 PM

Eigenuser, I rec the Nelson Mass.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on March 28, 2014, 07:47:48 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 28, 2014, 06:13:49 PM
I don't know. Other than this one disk, they surprisingly stayed away from more Haydn. I haven't a clue what they are up to now, perhaps someone knows. That would be great! :)

8)

If you're hepped by their Handel, you'll probably get moshed by their Mozart--they did three or four Mozart CDs about the same time as that Haydn. Their most recent releases, however, seem to be 19th century oriented, sometimes very late 19th century (Debussy).

Quote from: EigenUser on March 28, 2014, 07:37:49 PM
I've been trying to expand my listening habits and since I love 20th century music so much (my trio is Bartok, Ravel, and Ligeti >:D) I've been listening to more and more "modern" stuff. I've found actually quite a lot that I like, but I realized that I should look back, too. There seems to be an enthusiastic group of Haydn fans on this board so I figure that I should give him a shot. I listened to one of the Haydn "Composer of the Week" podcasts from BBC Radio3 and enjoyed some of the samples of music played there. I don't care much for Mozart, but Haydn seemed much more interesting. His melodies seemed less "straightforward", or at least that was the impression that I got. I also understand that he was considerably experimental in his time. Can anyone here recommend a few of his symphonies or concertos that I might possibly enjoy and/or that would be a good starting place? I'm more interested in larger-scale works than chamber music literature.

well, he wrote more than a hundred symphonies, and they're all good, so it's hard to pick out one or two to use as introductions. May as well bite the bullet and get the complete sets! But for someone in your position, I'd suggest two groups; the so called 'Sturm und Drang" from his middle period, and the :"London" symphonies for the end of his career. There's actually loads more--the string quartets, the piano trios, the choral works--but let's not bite off more than you can chew at once.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on March 28, 2014, 07:57:59 PM

Quote from: DavidW on March 28, 2014, 07:42:21 PM
Eigenuser, I rec the Nelson Mass.

Thanks! This was one of the samples played -- from the Kyrie. And the lyrics are the same as Ligeti's! :laugh: >:D

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 28, 2014, 07:47:48 PM
well, he wrote more than a hundred symphonies, and they're all good, so it's hard to pick out one or two to use as introductions. May as well bite the bullet and get the complete sets! But for someone in your position, I'd suggest two groups; the so called 'Sturm und Drang" from his middle period, and the :"London" symphonies for the end of his career. There's actually loads more--the string quartets, the piano trios, the choral works--but let's not bite off more than you can chew at once.

Thanks! When I was in high school, our orchestra played an easy string orchestra arrangement of the finale from 88. I remember really not liking it until our conductor explained/pointed out some of the compositional techniques of his. I grew to appreciate it after this, but never really listened to it on my own.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Roberto on March 28, 2014, 10:42:16 PM

Quote from: EigenUser on March 28, 2014, 07:37:49 PM
I've been trying to expand my listening habits and since I love 20th century music so much (my trio is Bartok, Ravel, and Ligeti >:D) I'm more interested in larger-scale works than chamber music literature.

Bartók is my second favorite composer (and I like Ligeti too). 8) I would suggest the two last oratorios with the Freiburgers and René Jacobs. I love them and they are truly large-scale.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 29, 2014, 06:17:43 AM

Quote from: EigenUser on March 28, 2014, 07:57:59 PM
Thanks! This was one of the samples played -- from the Kyrie. And the lyrics are the same as Ligeti's! :laugh: >:D

Thanks! When I was in high school, our orchestra played an easy string orchestra arrangement of the finale from 88. I remember really not liking it until our conductor explained/pointed out some of the compositional techniques of his. I grew to appreciate it after this, but never really listened to it on my own.

Hard to know what you might or might not like. As Jeffrey says, the middle period and the late period are good starting places for the symphonies. The difficult part is what ensemble types you might prefer. I only know PI, so if you only like Big Band, this will be useless for you. :)

We have been discussing this disk lately. It is a perfect introduction to middle period Haydn:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnImmerseelSymphony044amp045andKC11cover_zpsf283e4b9.jpg)

Then, in the late period;
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKuijken088_092cover_zps71594343.jpg)

This is a double set with 5 symphonies, 88-92. Very finely played.

I base these recs on the premise you listen to disks. These are both readily available. It's pointless to rec something where you have to fly Air Malaysia to go to a CD shop down a dark alleyway to get the last of the trhee copies made...

But if you stream or download, there are more possibilities.

Let us know how you are getting on with these. Even if you hate them, we won't hurt you here, we are a large umbrella at Da Haus. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 29, 2014, 05:31:38 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 21, 2014, 07:36:44 PM
Just purchased my 13th (I think ???) recording of the 45th. This time from Koopman and the Amsterdam Baroque Orchestra. Haven't really heard any samples from this recording, but have a good amount from Koopman and the ABO to know it should be a good one. I really find myself charmed by their disc of Haydn's symphonies Nos. 97 and 98, crisp and lively tempos, and nice detail that is presented from the winds, although that disc is on a different label (Challenge).
Oh, and Nos. 44 and 49 are on this one, which I think help round out a great trio of pieces as they are some of the more unique ones from Haydn.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PF5Nl63ZL._SL500_SY300_.jpg)

Finally arrived. Started with No.44, which was really good. Great sound from Erato, with a strong wind presence which is important to me. Only partially into No.45, I've noticed the tempos are never rushed, which supports the exemplary clarity the ABO demonstrates. Will stay close to the player for a while, a real winner.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 29, 2014, 06:22:40 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 29, 2014, 05:31:38 PM
Finally arrived. Started with No.44, which was really good. Great sound from Erato, with a strong wind presence which is important to me. Only partially into No.45, I've noticed the tempos are never rushed, which supports the exemplary clarity the ABO demonstrates. Will stay close to the player for a while, a real winner.

I was pretty sure you would like that, Greg. The #49 on there may be the best of the bunch too. I wish they had done more of the early ones, this is where they shine, IMO. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 30, 2014, 10:48:35 AM

I know I don't have a lot of companions to listen to Haydn's operas with, so I dug into some background information to give a taste of life in 1770. Check it our if you would, I'd be pleased to discuss. :)

Just a few of my closest friends were invited! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/03/1770-the-music-part-4-.html)

Thanks for your interest!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Justin on March 30, 2014, 07:44:02 PM

Bought this last night - very enjoyable! Now I'm tempted to start collecting the Wiener Philharmonic Trio's discs of Haydn string trios, although they seem a bit spendy and hard to come by.

[asin]B000CAKZJO[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on March 31, 2014, 02:24:50 AM

Quote from: Justin on March 30, 2014, 07:44:02 PM
Now I'm tempted to start collecting the Wiener Philharmonic Trio's discs of Haydn string trios, although they seem a bit spendy and hard to come by.

Hard to come by, but recommended. There are 6 discs in that series on Camerata.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 31, 2014, 03:00:15 PM

Quote from: Justin on March 30, 2014, 07:44:02 PM
Bought this last night - very enjoyable! Now I'm tempted to start collecting the Wiener Philharmonic Trio's discs of Haydn string trios, although they seem a bit spendy and hard to come by.

[asin]B000CAKZJO[/asin]

Hi, Justin. First, get volume 2 of the set you started. I'm dubious they will finish the cycle ( :'( ) but you never know, and it really is fine.

The Vienna Philharmonic Trio is an excellent set too, albeit on modern instruments. They do all but 1 of the certainly authentic and probably authentic works. There has recently been a small surge of recordings made available from Japan. There were a few of them at BRO, worth checking out. Arkiv had them for full price. By that time I only needed 2, so $20 each didn't seem as bad as when I needed all 6 of them. :-\

As nearly as I can tell, these 8 disks would make up the entirety of the recordings of the string trios. Which sucks because they are fine works, nothing lame or beginnerish about them. Many of them I like better than the bulk of the early quartets, as far as that goes.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: HIPster on March 31, 2014, 04:02:41 PM

The Linde Consort disc arrived on Saturday and I've had the opportunity to listen to it all the way through several times now.

An absolutely stellar recording!
[asin]B000025KIE[/asin]

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 27, 2014, 06:23:44 AM
I love that Linde disk. It is all early stuff, like mid to late 1750's, very well played. It's a long way from the London Symphonies, but sometimes that's a good thing. :)
8)

Thanks Gurn! Yes, it is a really great disc. Funny thing is, the seller sent me the older edition: the 'Reflexe' version; in many cases I'd perhaps contact the seller and let them know of my disappointment. In this case, however, I am just thrilled, as the disc itself was manufactured in Japan (much like the other Linde CD I have, of Bach's Brandenburg Concertos). 8)

So, now the question is: do I need the BIS set of Divertimenti? :laugh:

I note your excellent review of that set on amazon! Nice.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 31, 2014, 04:19:01 PM

Quote from: HIPster on March 31, 2014, 04:02:41 PM
The Linde Consort disc arrived on Saturday and I've had the opportunity to listen to it all the way through several times now.

An absolutely stellar recording!
[asin]B000025KIE[/asin]

Thanks Gurn! Yes, it is a really great disc. Funny thing is, the seller sent me the older edition: the 'Reflexe' version; in many cases I'd perhaps contact the seller and let them know of my disappointment. In this case, however, I am just thrilled, as the disc itself was manufactured in Japan (much like the other Linde CD I have, of Bach's Brandenburg Concertos). 8)

So, now the question is: do I need the BIS set of Divertimenti? :laugh:

I note your excellent review of that set on amazon! Nice.

Excellent, delighted you like it. I am very fond of Haydn's early works. Some write about them being similar to Late Baroque works as though it's a bad thing! Lindé is a very fine flautist, is it not so? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 31, 2014, 04:26:19 PM

Quote from: HIPster on March 31, 2014, 04:02:41 PM

Thanks Gurn! Yes, it is a really great disc. Funny thing is, the seller sent me the older edition: the 'Reflexe' version; in many cases I'd perhaps contact the seller and let them know of my disappointment. In this case, however, I am just thrilled, as the disc itself was manufactured in Japan (much like the other Linde CD I have, of Bach's Brandenburg Concertos). 8)

So, now the question is: do I need the BIS set of Divertimenti? :laugh:

I note your excellent review of that set on amazon! Nice.

Oops, stopped at the picture! :-[

Well, that is an interesting question. This is one really fine box set, and probably the only set available which has all of the authentic works on it and none of the 'attributeds'. As with the works on the Linde disk, they are of a similar style, clearly Haydn developed his 'signature sound' early times. As I mentioned in the last post, I am very keen on the early works. Also though, you would find a fine version of the first violin concerto, and a couple of marches from later on which you would likely not hear otherwise. Small works but nice. It is not just the completist in me that drove me to buy that set, it is the music itself, rarely heard and even more rarely recorded. If I had $60 burning a hole in my pocket, I would spend it on that before getting my third set of Bach cantatas... >:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: HIPster on March 31, 2014, 04:37:22 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 31, 2014, 04:19:01 PM
Excellent, delighted you like it. I am very fond of Haydn's early works. Some write about them being similar to Late Baroque works as though it's a bad thing! Lindé is a very fine flautist, is it not so? :)
8)

Yes, Linde is very fine, both as a flautist and leader. So stoked that I purchased this one!

I'm in full agreement with you on Haydn's early works too. A true selling point for me is that they have that Late Baroque quality to them. ;)

I think my next Haydn purchase is going to be the Pinnock Concertos disc:
[asin]B0000057DU[/asin]

I've been eyeing this one for quite a while now.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 31, 2014, 05:02:35 PM

Quote from: HIPster on March 31, 2014, 04:37:22 PM
Yes, Linde is very fine, both as a flautist and leader. So stoked that I purchased this one!

I'm in full agreement with you on Haydn's early works too. A true selling point for me is that they have that Late Baroque quality to them. ;)

I think my next Haydn purchase is going to be the Pinnock Concertos disc:

I've been eyeing this one for quite a while now.

I like that Pinnock disk, with just a reservation or two; the oboe concerto is not by Haydn, so a third of the disk is used up by an attribution. That said, it is a fine concerto, no matter who write it. Feder says the manuscript has the name "H.....r" underneath the Haydn which was added later. Also, the putative date of 1800 is pretty risky. He was pretty tied up at the time in other things.

The trumpet concerto is one of my favorite versions. Mark Bennett really plays it well. Keyed trumpet is pretty challenging, as you can hear in other versions! :)

The harpsichord concerto is also very nicely done. It was probably my favorite until supplanted by Immerseel. I've always liked Pinnock's harpsichord work in Bach, and he doesn't disappoint here.

Anyway, I think this is money well-spent too. You might also be happy with Hogwood's similar disk:

[asin]B000006MB8[/asin]

It has the trumpet concerto too, plus the horn concerto #1 (really nice!) and organ concerto Hob 18:1 in C, Haydn's earliest major concerto (1756). Other than giving you a really nice alternative to the already nice trumpet concerto, it gives you 2 other ones you don't have, both early (1756 & 1762). :)

Cheers,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: HIPster on March 31, 2014, 05:13:50 PM

Thanks Gurn!

Very helpful.

I have also been looking at Hogwood's too, of course. Both seem mandatory in this case! ;D

The Hogwood/Coin is also right up there too for me. . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 31, 2014, 05:21:12 PM

Quote from: HIPster on March 31, 2014, 05:13:50 PM
Thanks Gurn!

Very helpful.

I have also been looking at Hogwood's too, of course. Both seem mandatory in this case! ;D

The Hogwood/Coin is also right up there too for me. . .

Absolutely! I am inordinately fond of that disk. My favorites are both on DHM (Bylsma and Suzuki), but there are so many nice choices out there it is hard to pick just one.

This one here is a nice alternative:

[asin]B0001WECMO[/asin]

A tad pricey nowadays but they used to give it away (so to speak). Queyras was a beautiful tone and really plays the heck out of these. Freiburg Baroque is... Freiburg Baroque, which is to say, excellent.

I hate these dilemmas, they play right into my CDCDCD! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on March 31, 2014, 05:33:46 PM

Some days ago, I discovered this disk of Haydn's arias titled "Ladies First!".

I think the operatic field still remains as the part of Haydn's output less successfully addressed; but when I listened to this disk (through Spotify before ordering), I thought this is the way to follow.

Lisa Larsson is an excellent singer (great voice and expressiveness) and the Combattimento Consort Amsterdam is really in top form, playing with a sort of superb ferocity.

I don't know the specifics of the instruments involved, but the Combattimento is usually a MI orchestra (sometimes adding some specific PI). IMO, it would be a huge mistake to discard this disk because of this fact (MI, I mean).

[asin]B00FP0LHCU[/asin]

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 31, 2014, 05:42:13 PM

Quote from: Gordo on March 31, 2014, 05:33:46 PM
Some days ago, I discovered this disk of Haydn's arias titled "Ladies First!".

I think the operatic field still remains as the part of Haydn's output less successfully addressed; but when I listened to this disk (through Spotify before ordering), I thought this is the way to follow.

Lisa Larsson is an excellent singer (great voice and expressiveness) and the Combattimento Consort Amsterdam is really in top form, playing with a sort of superb ferocity.

I don't know the specifics of the instruments involved, but the Combattimento is usually a MI orchestra (sometimes adding some specific PI). IMO, it would be a huge mistake to discard this disk because of this fact (MI, I mean).

[asin]B00FP0LHCU[/asin]

:)

Thanks for the pointer, Gordo! That looks interesting. Even though I have the recital disks by Nuria Rial, Bonitatibus and the Huss 'Opera at Eszterházy' among others like Quasthoff and Augér, I don't know that one can cover the breadth of Haydn's operatic writings in just a few disks! I'll have to put this one on the list. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on March 31, 2014, 05:58:15 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 31, 2014, 05:42:13 PM
Thanks for the pointer, Gordo! That looks interesting. Even though I have the recital disks by Nuria Rial, Bonitatibus and the Huss 'Opera at Eszterházy' among others like Quasthoff and Augér, I don't know that one can cover the breadth of Haydn's operatic writings in just a few disks! I'll have to put this one on the list. :)

8)

The really different thing about this album is that the band is quite wild and performs with absolute conviction (no prisioners taken!); what matches wonderfully with Larsson's high expressiveness.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on April 01, 2014, 07:52:09 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 31, 2014, 05:02:35 PM
You might also be happy with Hogwood's similar disk:

[asin]B000006MB8[/asin]

It has the trumpet concerto too, plus the horn concerto #1 (really nice!) and organ concerto Hob 18:1 in C, Haydn's earliest major concerto (1756). Other than giving you a really nice alternative to the already nice trumpet concerto, it gives you 2 other ones you don't have, both early (1756 & 1762). :)

The trumpet concerto on this (Hogwood) CD was a welcome change from rather over-inflated modern instruments / modern orchestra performances I had heard.

My current favorite is an over-the-top modern instruments performance by Helmut Wobisch and the Vienna State Opera Orchestra on Vanguard (or the predecessor label.) The sound quality isn't good but the performance is high voltage in the best way.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 02, 2014, 04:23:03 AM

Quote from: Old Listener on April 01, 2014, 07:52:09 PM
The trumpet concerto on this (Hogwood) CD was a welcome change from rather over-inflated modern instruments / modern orchestra performances I had heard.

My current favorite is an over-the-top modern instruments performance by Helmut Wobisch and the Vienna State Opera Orchestra on Vanguard (or the predecessor label.) The sound quality isn't good but the performance is high voltage in the best way.

Haven't heard that one; my only MI performance was Wynton Marsalis. That one is just a touch over-the-top. :D I think I have all of the PI performances though. Despite being somewhat rugged (characteristic of AAM), I think this Hogwood is probably my personal tops. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 02, 2014, 05:41:53 PM

1771 was an interesting year, and a quiet one for Haydn for a change! I tried to find some details to share with you, and came up with a few. Check it out if you would like to, always delighted to discuss. :)

The year of the Cyclopean Oboist (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/04/1771-the-year.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on April 02, 2014, 10:37:49 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 02, 2014, 04:23:03 AM
Haven't heard that one; my only MI performance was Wynton Marsalis. That one is just a touch over-the-top. :D I think I have all of the PI performances though. Despite being somewhat rugged (characteristic of AAM), I think this Hogwood is probably my personal tops. :)

The Marsalis recording was just not my idea of appropriate Haydn style. Over the top in the wrong way.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 06, 2014, 08:48:21 AM

1771 was a difficult year to write about. I like to provide context rather than analysis, and despite having a (by now) huge library, there simply was little to provide for these works. They made me work for it, but I think you will like the result. Please feel free to check it out.

Know me by my symphony (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/04/1771-the-music-part-1-.html)

Thanks for reading,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2014, 05:40:22 PM

I like the way Opuses 9 & 17 came together to point the way for Haydn' to move forward and carry the string quartet to the top of the ladder as far as serious music goes. They were necessary for the end result to be able to take place. And are damned fine music in their own right. I try to put a little background to that together for you here, along with some of my own, no doubt outlandish, thoughts on the matter. Feel free to check them out here:

Taking the string quartet (composer) to school (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/04/1771-the-music-part-2-.html)

Thanks, and please, feel free to discuss. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on April 08, 2014, 05:58:18 PM

Conversation among friends has always been the image of quartets, but isn't it possible that other members of the household provided the motive spark, although of once Papa was focused on the genre he doubtless was interested in putting It through its paces.

Mandryka in the listening thread mentioned lute works by Hadyn. I do not even remember hearing of such works before. Which ones would they be?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2014, 06:09:32 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 08, 2014, 05:58:18 PM
Conversation among friends has always been the image of quartets, but isn't it possible that other members of the household provided the motive spark, although of once Papa was focused on the genre he doubtless was interested in putting It through its paces.

Mandryka in the listening thread mentioned lute works by Hadyn. I do not even remember hearing of such works before. Which ones would they be?

He didn't compose specifically for lute, but his Op 1 & 2 quartets lend themselves to lutenists quite nicely and are often performed by them.

I know Haydn's cellist Weigl (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/03/1769-the-music-part-2.html), whom I mentioned specifically in relation to spreading the Op 9 works around, was very interested in quartet playing. As was Tomasini. But other than playing casually in various salons in Vienna, there was nothing formal at either Eisenstadt or Eszterháza. So yes, I think the others around him offered inspiration, as such, but it was not something 'official', shall we say? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2014, 06:13:47 PM

Like this:

[asin]B000027EOM[/asin]

I fine disk, BTW. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on April 08, 2014, 07:08:34 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2014, 06:13:47 PM
Like this:

[asin]B000027EOM[/asin]

I fine disk, BTW. :)

8)

Placed into the catalog of Amazon desiderata.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 09, 2014, 11:38:25 AM

Listening to the D Major Cello Concerto as recorded by Russian cellist Daniel Shafran in August of 1961. It's some distance from HIP, of course . . . but against that, I find myself grateful that "Papa's" music was always considered a most worthy object of study in the Russian Conservatories. In the booklet, the following note from the soloist:

Quote from: Daniel ShafranThe sound of music, the sound of the cello, were with me from the cradle — even before. My parents were still students when I was due. It seems that while my [pianist] mother was feeling the first pangs of labor, my father was busy working over passages from Haydn's D Major Concerto in preparation for a recital. "Let's go to the hospital," my mother pleaded, as my father kept repeating a difficult technical passage. "Yes, yes, we'll go as soon as I finish." Finally my mother prevailed, thank goodness. Now whenever I play this Haydn passage and I'm not satisfied with it, I console myself by saying, "Ah, well — I was born with the passage unfinished."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 09, 2014, 11:54:49 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 09, 2014, 11:38:25 AM
Listening to the D Major Cello Concerto as recorded by Russian cellist Daniel Shafran in August of 1961. It's some distance from HIP, of course . . . but against that, I find myself grateful that "Papa's" music was always considered a most worthy object of study in the Russian Conservatories. In the booklet, the following note from the soloist:

QuoteQuote from: Daniel Shafran
The sound of music, the sound of the cello, were with me from the cradle — even before. My parents were still students when I was due. It seems that while my [pianist] mother was feeling the first pangs of labor, my father was busy working over passages from Haydn's D Major Concerto in preparation for a recital. "Let's go to the hospital," my mother pleaded, as my father kept repeating a difficult technical passage. "Yes, yes, we'll go as soon as I finish." Finally my mother prevailed, thank goodness. Now whenever I play this Haydn passage and I'm not satisfied with it, I console myself by saying, "Ah, well — I was born with the passage unfinished."

That's very cool; no wonder he decided to be a cellist, it was karma. Well, you could be doing a lot worse than listening to the cello concertos, no matter the players! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2014, 11:55:56 AM

As we have become well aware, Haydn wrote a lot more than symphonies and quartets. I have been working on 'the rest' of his output for 1771, and have put together what I consider to be some very interesting facts for your consideration. Please feel free to drop by and have a look.

Some interesting 'others' (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/04/1771-the-music-part-3-.html)

Thanks for checking it out, hope you will start a conversation. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 13, 2014, 04:43:21 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 06, 2014, 08:48:21 AM
1771 was a difficult year to write about.

Know me by my symphony (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/04/1771-the-music-part-1-.html)

Thanks for reading,
8)

Another good read, Gurn, and inspiration for this Sunday afternoon listening. 42 and 52 are among my favorites (I try to keep the list to a Top 30 but with Papa that's damned hard to do 8) ) so I really didn't need an excuse to listen to these (they get spun often anyway) but it's always ear-opening to listen to anything after reading about the works on your blog. I don't understand the professional criticism of 52 either. How could this not be loved and appreciated as a significant symphony?

You wrote: "The entire movement has an interesting orchestral sound which is both full and yet transparent.This is yet another argument in favor of period instrument ensembles using a reasonable approximation of the proper number of players for which it was composed." Well, yes, but Fey's hybrid band (18 strong including harpsichordist, everything but the keyboard and horns modern) gives us some of the most transparent textures in Haydn I've ever heard, and not only in these two symphonies. It's one reason he's so often my preferred version. (I compared Fey to Hogwood, Weil, Pinnock, Brüggen and Goodman, my PI versions.)

You recommend Goodman in 42. While I enjoy that performance, and find it thrilling, your readers should know he ignores the Moderato e maestoso marking of the first movement, treating it as if it were a Presto. He (and Weil and Hogwood too among the PI bands I compared) doesn't give us the moderately paced and "majestic" tone this movement requires. Fey delivers here too.

So ends today's Hobbit promotion ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 13, 2014, 06:35:26 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 13, 2014, 04:43:21 AM
Another good read, Gurn, and inspiration for this Sunday afternoon listening. 42 and 52 are among my favorites (I try to keep the list to a Top 30 but with Papa that's damned hard to do 8) ) so I really didn't need an excuse to listen to these (they get spun often anyway) but it's always ear-opening to listen to anything after reading about the works on your blog. I don't understand the professional criticism of 52 either. How could this not be loved and appreciated as a significant symphony?

You wrote: "The entire movement has an interesting orchestral sound which is both full and yet transparent.This is yet another argument in favor of period instrument ensembles using a reasonable approximation of the proper number of players for which it was composed." Well, yes, but Fey's hybrid band (18 strong including harpsichordist, everything but the keyboard and horns modern) gives us some of the most transparent textures in Haydn I've ever heard, and not only in these two symphonies. It's one reason he's so often my preferred version. (I compared Fey to Hogwood, Weil, Pinnock, Brüggen and Goodman, my PI versions.)

You recommend Goodman in 42. While I enjoy that performance, and find it thrilling, your readers should know he ignores the Moderato e maestoso marking of the first movement, treating it as if it were a Presto. He (and Weil and Hogwood too among the PI bands I compared) doesn't give us the moderately paced and "majestic" tone this movement requires. Fey delivers here too.

So ends today's Hobbit promotion ;D

Sarge

Howdy, Sarge. Thanks for reading, I appreciate it. :)

Until I got to reading both Robbins-Landon and Peter Brown, two of the most esteemed Haydnistos, I thought #52 was generally loved. Somewhere earlier I ranted a bit about musicologists who make value judgements, I'm not entirely sure it's their job to make comparative pronouncements on the musical quality of a piece, instead they should just be telling us what is in there. The problem when it comes from Landon especially, is that the entire generation who followed him were prejudiced against the symphonies between S&D and 'Paris'. But as the research of the last 20 years has shown, he just didn't understand them, and was partially reacting to his disappointment over Haydn moving on from S&D. As I hope to show down the road, some of the most interesting things were going on with these works. :)

Aw, dagnabbit, I didn't mean to slight The Hobbit, I just didn't realize he was standing there, Hogwood is so tall.... :D That's a good catch on the tempo indications. On the ones you didn't mention, Brüggen is pretty good with it, holding the boys back until the proper time. Pinnock is a hybrid, a bit faster than Moderato, but still trying to get the Maestoso accenting in. I would like to see the score to see when it should properly pick up speed, or if it M e M throughout. Brüggen is pretty consistently Moderato.

I have a few Fey disks, when next I arrive at a symphony I have, I'll be sure to include him. He needs to stand in the front though... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 13, 2014, 07:27:53 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 13, 2014, 06:35:26 AMThat's a good catch on the tempo indications. On the ones you didn't mention, Brüggen is pretty good with it, holding the boys back until the proper time. Pinnock is a hybrid, a bit faster than Moderato, but still trying to get the Maestoso accenting in. I would like to see the score to see when it should properly pick up speed, or if it M e M throughout. Brüggen is pretty consistently Moderato.

Yeah, I sampled Brüggen and Pinnock too and agree they observe the M&M. I took a look at the score of 42 (downloaded it from IMSLP). There isn't any indication that the speed should change in the first movement.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 13, 2014, 06:35:26 AM
I have a few Fey disks, when next I arrive at a symphony I have, I'll be sure to include him. He needs to stand in the front though... :D

;D :D ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 13, 2014, 08:45:58 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 13, 2014, 07:27:53 AM
Yeah, I sampled Brüggen and Pinnock too and agree they observe the M&M. I took a look at the score of 42 (downloaded it from IMSLP). There isn't any indication that the speed should change in the first movement.

;D :D ;D

Sarge

Of the two I have not yet mentioned here, it is again a split: Apollo Ensemble / Hsu, one of my favorite groups, are transgressors here, if not Presto, at least Allegro molto! L'Estro Armonico/Solomons are not only correct on tempo, but as they are so often, seemingly the best of the bunch overall too. I try to avoid using just one band for my blog examples, but if I had to use just one, then wherever they occur Solomons et al seem to sweep the table. The unavailability of their set commercially is a stunning piece of poor judgment by CBS/Sony. Yet another... :(

Damn, I always forget IMSLP. I have some excellent scores from them but I seem to have a brain fart every time I say to myself 'I wish I had a score...' :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 13, 2014, 09:41:22 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 13, 2014, 08:45:58 AM
Of the two I have not yet mentioned here, it is again a split: Apollo Ensemble / Hsu, one of my favorite groups, are transgressors here, if not Presto, at least Allegro molto! L'Estro Armonico/Solomons are not only correct on tempo, but as they are so often, seemingly the best of the bunch overall too. I try to avoid using just one band for my blog examples, but if I had to use just one, then wherever they occur Solomons et al seem to sweep the table. The unavailability of their set commercially is a stunning piece of poor judgment by CBS/Sony. Yet another... :(

I have neither, but I like the one Apollo disc I do have (12, 44, 64) and my two Solomons,of course. Well, at least the Apollo 42 is available. Even though it's on the fast side, the clips sound wonderful. A must purchase, I fear :D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 13, 2014, 09:57:42 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 13, 2014, 09:41:22 AM
I have neither, but I like the one Apollo disc I do have (12, 44, 64) and my two Solomons,of course. Well, at least the Apollo 42 is available. Even though it's on the fast side, the clips sound wonderful. A must purchase, I fear :D

Sarge

Yes, I discovered them serendipitously with a $3 disk called "The Hidden Haydn", which I believe is the one you reference, since it has #12 on it. I was taken immediately, but have amassed only a couple of others, including the one with 35, 23 & 42 and the Times of Day, all of which are very fine. I think there is one more, haven't bagged it yet; matter of time. :)

I have all of the Solomons on MP3, but I never rec a disk I don't have. I have rounded up licensed remastering's of all of the remaining 9 disks from Haydn House and will drop a C-note+ on them very shortly. The hell with CBS!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on April 13, 2014, 05:47:01 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 06, 2014, 08:48:21 AM
1771 was a difficult year to write about. I like to provide context rather than analysis, and despite having a (by now) huge library, there simply was little to provide for these works. They made me work for it, but I think you will like the result. Please feel free to check it out.

Know me by my symphony (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/04/1771-the-music-part-1-.html)

Thanks for reading,
8)

I'm a little behind in the blog readings, just got to this one. 8)

52 is a great piece, always been a joy to listen to for me, perhaps because it does contain elements that are too different. For me the minuet/trio is a unique bridge from the Andante to the Presto finale, a bit enigmatic in that it doesn't necessarily follow the lyricism of the second mvt. or share the sharp wit of the finale, but rather wandering in search of its next step. In a way it reminds me a lot of the Minuet of No. 45 and of No. 95 (which I love the way that Minkowski treats 95's minuet, very legato with an air of tragedy, deep stuff) both sort of a understated and atmospherically altered bridge, rather than a fully realized dance-like movement like that of No. 69 or even No. 98.

Thanks for the posting, Gurn. More to read...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 13, 2014, 06:21:45 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on April 13, 2014, 05:47:01 PM
I'm a little behind in the blog readings, just got to this one. 8)

52 is a great piece, always been a joy to listen to for me, perhaps because it does contain elements that are too different. For me the minuet/trio is a unique bridge from the Andante to the Presto finale, a bit enigmatic in that it doesn't necessarily follow the lyricism of the second mvt. or share the sharp wit of the finale, but rather wandering in search of its next step. In a way it reminds me a lot of the Minuet of No. 45 and of No. 95 (which I love the way that Minkowski treats 95's minuet, very legato with an air of tragedy, deep stuff) both sort of a understated and atmospherically altered bridge, rather than a fully realized dance-like movement like that of No. 69 or even No. 98.

Thanks for the posting, Gurn. More to read...

Thanks, Greg, glad you enjoyed it. I agree, it is the contrasts between movements which make it more interesting, rather than less, as is implied by Landon or Brown. The German critics of the time were incensed by the constant changes of mood demonstrated in Haydn's works, they (and their descendents?) seem out of touch with the fact that Joe Listener finds this appealing rather than distressing. After all, there are rules for this!! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on April 13, 2014, 09:17:47 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2014, 06:13:47 PM
Like this:

[asin]B000027EOM[/asin]

I fine disk, BTW. :)

8)

That's the disc I played.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 18, 2014, 01:32:55 PM

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn7LastWordsSavallDVD_zps7571f21c.jpg)

Hardly a more appropriate day for this one; I used to listen to the CD version which I've had for several years, but the DVD is even better! This has been generally available for a pittance these last couple of years, at BRO among others. Great addition to your Haydn collection. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on April 18, 2014, 03:17:23 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 18, 2014, 01:32:55 PM
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn7LastWordsSavallDVD_zps7571f21c.jpg)

Hardly a more appropriate day for this one; I used to listen to the CD version which I've had for several years, but the DVD is even better! This has been generally available for a pittance these last couple of years, at BRO among others. Great addition to your Haydn collection. :)

8)

Yer all by yerseff on Page1 oldboy!! We gotcha serrounded!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 18, 2014, 04:18:17 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on April 18, 2014, 03:17:23 PM
Yer all by yerseff on Page1 oldboy!! We gotcha serrounded!!

No problem for me, I'm quite used to it. James and I seem to be in the same (or similar, more like) watercraft on that front. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on April 18, 2014, 07:08:35 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 18, 2014, 01:32:55 PM
Hardly a more appropriate day for this one; I used to listen to the CD version which I've had for several years, but the DVD is even better! This has been generally available for a pittance these last couple of years, at BRO among others. Great addition to your Haydn collection. :)

I got the DVD from Berkshire recently. It's the sort of recording that is so good that I have no desire to explore others (of the orchestral version, that is). I can see why some people don't like the spoken-word interludes but the rest of it is so very good that I let that slide.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 18, 2014, 07:17:32 PM

Quote from: Pat B on April 18, 2014, 07:08:35 PM
I got the DVD from Berkshire recently. It's the sort of recording that is so good that I have no desire to explore others (of the orchestral version, that is). I can see why some people don't like the spoken-word interludes but the rest of it is so very good that I let that slide.

Yes, I know what you mean. I worked around it by ripping the CD to flac and only playing the flacs, not the disk, without the interludes. The DVD is a different kettle of fish for me; I view it as an historical reenactment and the 'stage business' is vital to the plot, so to speak. I don't interfere with that. It's just once a year for the DVD for me, so no harm done. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on April 18, 2014, 10:42:00 PM

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/192/MI0001192891.jpg)

Aapo Häkkinen plays the seven last words. Hakkinen's one of my favourite keyboard players, in Byrd, Bach and Frescobaldi, so I was curious about what he makes of later music.

I wonder about the choice of clavichord rather than piano, maybe the music needs more percussive bass sounds. The earthquake sounds sounds puny. Wasn't it a piano that Haydn had in mind? Anyway, there are one or two nice moments, like in the second sonata, where the gossamer light treble sounds float over an agitated bass - heart stopping.

This is the first time I've heard the keyboard version. I've never liked the music, and Hakkinen doesn't change that. This is on spotify (where it's wrongly tagged Vernon Handley)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 19, 2014, 04:58:47 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 18, 2014, 01:32:55 PM
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn7LastWordsSavallDVD_zps7571f21c.jpg)

Hardly a more appropriate day for this one; I used to listen to the CD version which I've had for several years, but the DVD is even better! This has been generally available for a pittance these last couple of years, at BRO among others. Great addition to your Haydn collection. :)

8)

Thanks for the reminder, O Gurn! (I listened to the Quatuor Mosaïques recording last night.) Thanks to your reminder, I've at last gone back to BRO, and pulled the trigger on this. (And found another item I've long meant to fetch in, incidentally: Shostakovich & Weinberg playing the two-piano version of the Shostakovich Tenth Symphony.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 19, 2014, 09:47:15 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on April 18, 2014, 10:42:00 PM
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/192/MI0001192891.jpg)

Aapo Häkkinen plays the seven last words. Hakkinen's one of my favourite keyboard players, in Byrd, Bach and Frescobaldi, so I was curious about what he makes of later music.

I wonder about the choice of clavichord rather than piano, maybe the music needs more percussive bass sounds. The earthquake sounds sounds puny. Wasn't it a piano that Haydn had in mind? Anyway, there are one or two nice moments, like in the second sonata, where the gossamer light treble sounds float over an agitated bass - heart stopping.

This is the first time I've heard the keyboard version. I've never liked the music, and Hakkinen doesn't change that. This is on spotify (where it's wrongly tagged Vernon Handley)

I have this disk, of course. I've only listened to it 3 or 4 times myself, so my experience of it is only slightly greater than yours.

To put things properly, Haydn didn't do this piano reduction. Artaria hired someone (Anonymous) to do it, then sent Haydn the manuscript to review and approve or correct. Haydn, in a letter to Artaria, said he felt the arranger had done a good job.

Yes, by 1786 it was certainly intended for fortepiano. You can justify some of the later works being on clavichord, such as Hob 17:6, the Piccolo Divertimento, because Haydn undoubtedly composed it on a clavichord and then wrote it into a piano score. The same justification can scarcely be used here. As you point out, the Terremoto simply loses its effect on such an instrument, although to be fair to Häkkinen, he certainly gives it his best effort. However, many of the quiet Adagio and Largo parts are wonderful on this instrument, as you noted, and so it is a mixed bag. I'm glad I have it, but it isn't my main disk. That would be Brautigam, of course, since 'Brautigam' and 'earthquake' are synonyms. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 19, 2014, 09:49:56 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 19, 2014, 04:58:47 AM
Thanks for the reminder, O Gurn! (I listened to the Quatuor Mosaïques recording last night.) Thanks to your reminder, I've at last gone back to BRO, and pulled the trigger on this. (And found another item I've long meant to fetch in, incidentally: Shostakovich & Weinberg playing the two-piano version of the Shostakovich Tenth Symphony.)

Of all the PI versions in all orchestration which I have of this work, this is always my favorite. QM ain't bad either, when I'm going for the 'earthquake lite' orchestration. :) That other sounds pretty interesting too, I must say. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 19, 2014, 01:36:10 PM

1772 was such a major year for music development, it took me a week just to summarize some of it. And stuff happened too. If you would like, check out my latest essay, it's all the news that was news. :)

Farewell to Stürm und Dräng (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/04/1772-the-year-.html)

As always, delighted to discuss. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 20, 2014, 02:58:46 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 19, 2014, 01:36:10 PM
1772 was such a major year for music development, it took me a week just to summarize some of it. And stuff happened too. If you would like, check out my latest essay, it's all the news that was news. :)

Farewell to Stürm und Dräng (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/04/1772-the-year-.html)

As always, delighted to discuss. :)

8)

Hopefully my blog provider has things straightened out now, I apologize for any inconvenience caused by them going down right after I posted until just a few minutes ago. I hate when that happens! >:(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on April 20, 2014, 03:17:02 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 19, 2014, 01:36:10 PM
1772 was such a major year for music development, it took me a week just to summarize some of it.

As always, delighted to discuss. :)

A very informative article with all sorts of details. It read very naturally. High quality story-telling.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 20, 2014, 04:09:48 PM

Quote from: Old Listener on April 20, 2014, 03:17:02 PM
A very informative article with all sorts of details. It read very naturally. High quality story-telling.

Thanks, that's just my aim! I try to find things you haven't read in liner notes. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on April 20, 2014, 04:44:46 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 19, 2014, 09:47:15 AM
Yes, by 1786 it was certainly intended for fortepiano. You can justify some of the later works being on clavichord, such as Hob 17:6, the Piccolo Divertimento, because Haydn undoubtedly composed it on a clavichord and then wrote it into a piano score. The same justification can scarcely be used here. As you point out, the Terremoto simply loses its effect on such an instrument, although to be fair to Häkkinen, he certainly gives it his best effort. However, many of the quiet Adagio and Largo parts are wonderful on this instrument, as you noted, and so it is a mixed bag. I'm glad I have it, but it isn't my main disk. That would be Brautigam, of course, since 'Brautigam' and 'earthquake' are synonyms. :D

I recently sampled both of these, Immerseel, and the new Lubimov. I really wanted to like Häkkinen, but ultimately I came to the same conclusion. Lubimov's tangent piano also sounds on the small side. I am curious why both of them chose this work for their recording projects on those instruments. I ended up choosing Brautigam, partly based on samples, partly because it is the apparent GMG favorite, and partly because it was the cheapest option at the time. :)

USPS delivered it today. :o I guess I should go ahead and listen to it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 20, 2014, 04:52:19 PM

Quote from: Pat B on April 20, 2014, 04:44:46 PM
I recently sampled both of these, Immerseel, and the new Lubimov. I really wanted to like Häkkinen, but ultimately I came to the same conclusion. Lubimov's tangent piano also sounds on the small side. I am curious why both of them chose this work for their recording projects on those instruments. I ended up choosing Brautigam, partly based on samples, partly because it is the apparent GMG favorite, and partly because it was the cheapest option at the time. :)

USPS delivered it today. :o I guess I should go ahead and listen to it.

Immerseel is one I would like to try. I am a big Lubimov fan AND a big Tangentenflügel fan, but I am inclined to believe you are correct in your assessment. The quiet and intimate parts are well suited for both of those instruments, but dammit, you have to play the climax too, and how does one manage that?

If I could reasonably accept Haydn's entire keyboard oeuvre played on a fortepiano, Brautigam would be my man. On the works where it IS the instrument of choice, he's tops. Or maybe Staier... no, Bilson. Bilson or Cooper, with some Oort thrown in. That's it. ???

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on April 20, 2014, 06:30:53 PM

To partially answer my own question, I found this interview (http://www.aapohakkinen.com/interview.php) with Aapo Häkkinen, where he explained that he primarily plays harpsichord and clavichord. Then I sheepishly realized that I was confusing him with Tuija Hakkila. :-[

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 21, 2014, 04:11:29 AM

Quote from: Pat B on April 20, 2014, 06:30:53 PM
To partially answer my own question, I found this interview (http://www.aapohakkinen.com/interview.php) with Aapo Häkkinen, where he explained that he primarily plays harpsichord and clavichord. Then I sheepishly realized that I was confusing him with Tuija Hakkila. :-[

Ah, but they're both great, right to the Finnish :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 21, 2014, 04:49:31 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 20, 2014, 04:09:48 PM
Thanks, that's just my aim! I try to find things you haven't read in liner notes. :)

8)

Speaking of liner notes . . . I was reading them for the Amadeus Quartet's recording of the Op.51, O Gurn. Have you written/mused upon the outsourced piano arrangement of the Seven Last Words? TIA!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 21, 2014, 04:54:00 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 21, 2014, 04:49:31 AM
Speaking of liner notes . . . I was reading them for the Amadeus Quartet's recording of the Op.51, O Gurn. Have you written/mused upon the outsourced piano arrangement of the Seven Last Words? TIA!

Run up the column to reply 8212, Karl. There really isn't a lot more to say about it than it is what it is. Mandrake brought it up the other day. I ordered the Immerseel disk after Pat mentioned it last night. Interested to hear what he has to 'say' about it. :)

8)

PS - The dadgum Type-Pad blogging website is down again. They haven't been down in years, and now this is the third time in 4 days! I suspect the gremlins are at work here... :-\

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 21, 2014, 04:55:59 AM

Thanks! I understand that in many cases, there's only so much we know . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 21, 2014, 04:59:11 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on April 18, 2014, 10:42:00 PM
This is the first time I've heard the keyboard version [of The Seven Last Words] ... This is on spotify (where it's wrongly tagged Vernon Handley)

That is amusing!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 21, 2014, 05:06:30 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 21, 2014, 04:55:59 AM
Thanks! I understand that in many cases, there's only so much we know . . . .

And we only know this much because a letter he wrote to Artaria survived in their archives. Making piano reductions wasn't big business for composers back then, but publishers were crazy about it and hired people who specialized in it, paying them a pittance and pocketing a huge chunk of business for themselves. I would wager Haydn got no more than a few florins for the rights, if that! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 21, 2014, 05:08:04 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 21, 2014, 04:59:11 AM
That is amusing!

Indeed. That's a vaguely familiar name; doesn't he play the organ? ???

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on April 21, 2014, 07:55:04 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 21, 2014, 04:54:00 AM
Run up the column to reply 8212, Karl. There really isn't a lot more to say about it than it is what it is. Mandrake brought it up the other day. I ordered the Immerseel disk after Pat mentioned it last night. Interested to hear what he has to 'say' about it. :)

8)

PS - The dadgum Type-Pad blogging website is down again. They haven't been down in years, and now this is the third time in 4 days! I suspect the gremlins are at work here... :-\

So, what were the seven last words of Gurn on the typepad?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 21, 2014, 08:06:11 AM

Quote from: Pat B on April 21, 2014, 07:55:04 AM
So, what were the seven last words of Gurn on the typepad?

I think it was:

See you next time, thanks for reading!

Unless I miss my guess. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 21, 2014, 08:27:49 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 21, 2014, 04:54:00 AM
PS - The dadgum Type-Pad blogging website is down again. They haven't been down in years, and now this is the third time in 4 days! I suspect the gremlins are at work here... :-\

I just heard from them; they have been undergoing a denial of service attack since last Thursday night; 20gb of hits per minute. They are being blackmailed to pay a large sum of money for it to stop. I guess this is the result of being successful. Probably all the money they make off HaydnSeek... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 21, 2014, 11:09:25 AM

Enjoying Ton Koopman playing the organ concerti.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: torut on April 22, 2014, 06:31:37 PM

May I ask for a recommendation for Haydn string quartets recordings? I have a set of Haydn string quartets by Buchberger Quartet contained in Brilliant Classics Haydn Edition. As you know, it is not a complete set, and I am looking for recordings of the missing quartets. Since I liked Buchberger's recordings very much for its clear and vivid playing, I have no problem with purchasing their individual CDs (and I will eventually do so), I would like to check other quartets (especially HIP that I don't have) for this opprtunity.
Are there good HIP/period quartets who recorded Op. 50 (at least Nos 4-6) and Op. 54 (at least Nos 1-3)?
I have Quatuor Mosaiques's Op. 76, and like it a lot, but I believe they have not recorded Op. 50 or Op. 54.
By reading this thread, Quatuor Festetics seems good, but their recordings are difficult to obtain.
I don't see Salomon Quartet so much here (sorry if I missed), and there is almost no review at Amazon. Is Salomon's Op. 50 & 54 good?

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 07, 2012, 04:29:07 AM
As you may have noted in my survey (1787), the only PI recordings of Op 50 are Festetics and Salomon. And the occasional single like the Schuppanzigh's doing #6. Even in the MI realm, unless and entire cycle is being undertaken, Op 50 gets short shrift. I believe that it is for a couple of reasons; it is known to be a difficult bite to chew for the average listener. In the language of those times, it is for Kenner rather than Liebhaber. And then, it falls between some major brethren, the immensely popular and symbolic Op 33 and the also very popular Op 64. Note that in terms of recording history its immediate neighbor, Op 54/55 gets much the same treatment, also undeservedly so. For me, the period of these composition, say, 1785 to 89, is also home to my favorite Haydn works by far. And the string quartets of those years are no exception in any way. :)

8)

Is this still true regarding Op. 50 & 54? :(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 22, 2014, 06:49:16 PM

Festetics Q Op 50 is currently in stock at arkivmusic.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 22, 2014, 07:13:23 PM

Quote from: torut on April 22, 2014, 06:31:37 PM
May I ask for a recommendation for Haydn string quartets recordings? I have a set of Haydn string quartets by Buchberger Quartet contained in Brilliant Classics Haydn Edition. As you know, it is not a complete set, and I am looking for recordings of the missing quartets. Since I liked Buchberger's recordings very much for its clear and vivid playing, I have no problem with purchasing their individual CDs (and I will eventually do so), I would like to check other quartets (especially HIP that I don't have) for this opprtunity.
Are there good HIP/period quartets who recorded Op. 50 (at least Nos 4-6) and Op. 54 (at least Nos 1-3)?
I have Quatuor Mosaiques's Op. 76, and like it a lot, but I believe they have not recorded Op. 50 or Op. 54.
By reading this thread, Quatuor Festetics seems good, but their recordings are difficult to obtain.
I don't see Salomon Quartet so much here (sorry if I missed), and there is almost no review at Amazon. Is Salomon's Op. 50 & 54 good?
Is this still true regarding Op. 50 & 54? :(

I can only offer my opinions, with which many disagree. As DavidW says, Festetics Op 50 is currently available, which simplifies things very much. Salomon is still the only alternative PI recording. It may well be that London Haydn Quartet will release their Op 50 this year, it is the next one in the series which they appear to be recording chronologically.

As for the ones available, my personal preference is the Salomon's. You will likely have to be content with a used pair of disks unless you are aware of some source for new ones. On the other hand, used Op 50 were possibly the most available of the entire set, so that is good. I saw one on eBay just last week (disk 2). In my opinion, Op 50 is the weakest of the Festetics efforts. However, their Op 54/55 is very good, and if you can run across a set you would likely be pleased with it. You can find all of the Festetics boxes if you are persistent. Things change over time, and probably when I wrote that originally they were very scarce, but lately there have been quite a few available.

If the Buchberger's are your current reference point, I think you will find almost any their version to be rather on the slow side, since they are the fastest I've heard in virtually every quartet.

You are correct about Mosaiques. They have done only these: 20, 33, 51, 64, 76, 77 & 103 (which they rightly call Op 77 #3). Chances are slim they will ever do the remaining ones, sad to say.

Cheers,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on April 22, 2014, 07:24:44 PM

Quote from: torut on April 22, 2014, 06:31:37 PM
Is this still true regarding Op. 50 & 54? :(

Recordings of Op.50 & 54 may not be plentiful (don't know actual numbers) but I enjoy these:

(Actually only one-half of Op.50...why won't they record the other half??):

[asin]B002PP112O[/asin]

And two great Op.54's:

[asin]B0000AN0TR[/asin]

[asin]B00000632D[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: torut on April 22, 2014, 07:39:33 PM

Quote from: DavidW on April 22, 2014, 06:49:16 PM
Festetics Q Op 50 is currently in stock at arkivmusic.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 22, 2014, 07:13:23 PM
I can only offer my opinions, with which many disagree. As DavidW says, Festetics Op 50 is currently available, which simplifies things very much. Salomon is still the only alternative PI recording. It may well be that London Haydn Quartet will release their Op 50 this year, it is the next one in the series which they appear to be recording chronologically.

As for the ones available, my personal preference is the Salomon's. You will likely have to be content with a used pair of disks unless you are aware of some source for new ones. On the other hand, used Op 50 were possibly the most available of the entire set, so that is good. I saw one on eBay just last week (disk 2). In my opinion, Op 50 is the weakest of the Festetics efforts. However, their Op 54/55 is very good, and if you can run across a set you would likely be pleased with it. You can find all of the Festetics boxes if you are persistent. Things change over time, and probably when I wrote that originally they were very scarce, but lately there have been quite a few available.

If the Buchberger's are your current reference point, I think you will find almost any their version to be rather on the slow side, since they are the fastest I've heard in virtually every quartet.

You are correct about Mosaiques. They have done only these: 20, 33, 51, 64, 76, 77 & 103 (which they rightly call Op 77 #3). Chances are slim they will ever do the remaining ones, sad to say.

Cheers,
8)

Thank you very much, DavidW and Gurn!
Aren't CDs at ArkivMusic actually CD-R? (I have not used the shop before.)
http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk (http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk) sells mp3 & CD-R of Salomon discs. I'll try Salomon first.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on April 22, 2014, 07:47:17 PM

Quote from: torut on April 22, 2014, 07:39:33 PM
Aren't CDs at ArkivMusic actually CD-R? (I have not used the shop before.)

Nope. They're an online shop like any other which just happens to have licensing agreements with several record companies to issue CD-Rs.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: torut on April 22, 2014, 08:01:09 PM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on April 22, 2014, 07:24:44 PM
Recordings of Op.50 & 54 may not be plentiful (don't know actual numbers) but I enjoy these:

(Actually only one-half of Op.50...why won't they record the other half??):

[asin]B002PP112O[/asin]

And two great Op.54's:

[asin]B0000AN0TR[/asin]

[asin]B00000632D[/asin]

Thank you for your recommendation, Dancing Divertimentian.
Are they non-HIP using modern instruments? I am not a HIP/period maniac (I love Buchberger and Mosaiques who use modern instruments although Mosaiques uses gut strings), just would like to know.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: torut on April 22, 2014, 08:08:01 PM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on April 22, 2014, 07:47:17 PM
Nope. They're an online shop like any other which just happens to have licensing agreements with several record companies to issue CD-Rs.

Thank you. I checked the web site, and the reissue CDRs are called "ArkivCD". The Festetics discs are labeled as just "CD", so they seem to be press-CDs.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on April 22, 2014, 09:01:34 PM

Quote from: torut on April 22, 2014, 08:01:09 PM
Thank you for your recommendation, Dancing Divertimentian.
Are they non-HIP using modern instruments? I am not a HIP/period maniac (I love Buchberger and Mosaiques who use modern instruments although Mosaiques uses gut strings), just would like to know.

These are all non-HIP. Totally modern instruments. But I also love the Mosaiques and these are definitely comparable.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: torut on April 22, 2014, 10:31:05 PM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on April 22, 2014, 09:01:34 PM
These are all non-HIP. Totally modern instruments. But I also love the Mosaiques and these are definitely comparable.

I see, thank you. Mosaiques is very nice. I have their Beethoven Op. 18 No. 2 & 3 and love it so much.
The other Haydn SQs I have are Kodaly (Op. 76 No. 2, 3, & 4; old Naxos disc), L'Archibudelli (Op. 77 & 103), and Griller SQ (Op. 71 & 74). All are nice, but I prefer Buchberger, Mosaiques and L'Archibudelli.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on April 22, 2014, 11:45:43 PM

Quote from: torut on April 22, 2014, 06:31:37 PM
May I ask for a recommendation for Haydn string quartets recordings? I have a set of Haydn string quartets by Buchberger Quartet contained in Brilliant Classics Haydn Edition. As you know, it is not a complete set, and I am looking for recordings of the missing quartets. Since I liked Buchberger's recordings very much for its clear and vivid playing, I have no problem with purchasing their individual CDs (and I will eventually do so), I would like to check other quartets (especially HIP that I don't have) for this opprtunity.
Are there good HIP/period quartets who recorded Op. 50 (at least Nos 4-6) and Op. 54 (at least Nos 1-3)?
I have Quatuor Mosaiques's Op. 76, and like it a lot, but I believe they have not recorded Op. 50 or Op. 54.
By reading this thread, Quatuor Festetics seems good, but their recordings are difficult to obtain.
I don't see Salomon Quartet so much here (sorry if I missed), and there is almost no review at Amazon. Is Salomon's Op. 50 & 54 good?
Is this still true regarding Op. 50 & 54? :(

Over the past three years, I have been on a bit of a journey with the Quartets. I acquired:
Angeles box set (very good and a great choice if you want them all)
Op 9: London Haydn Quartet (Hyperion)
Op 17: Auryn Quartet
Op 20/33: Mosaiques
Op 50: Tetrai
Op 54/74: Endellion
Op 64: Festetics
Op 71: Kodaly (On Naxos)
Op 76: Takacs
Op. 77: Lindsays
A disc of Jerusalem Quartet (selected choices, volume 2)

My own conclusion is that the Angeles are just consistently good and I would not be disappointed if that was all I had. That said, the Endellion was my first purchase and it still sounds really good (they were recommended above). I also like the Takacs, Lindsays, and London Haydn Quartets very much (roughly in that order, though first two are really neck and neck). The others are not bad, but I have not taken to them as much, particularly the Mosaiques and Festetics, who are popular here. The one disappointment was the Jerusalem Quartet. They were very popular here, and maybe I expected too much as a result, but I did not think them anything special (though they are played just fine).

Like you, the reason I purchased so many different quartets was that I wanted to hear for myself the different groups, and though it cost me more, I am so glad that I did.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on April 22, 2014, 11:52:25 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 22, 2014, 07:13:23 PM
I can only offer my opinions, with which many disagree. As DavidW says, Festetics Op 50 is currently available, which simplifies things very much. Salomon is still the only alternative PI recording. It may well be that London Haydn Quartet will release their Op 50 this year, it is the next one in the series which they appear to be recording chronologically.

As for the ones available, my personal preference is the Salomon's. You will likely have to be content with a used pair of disks unless you are aware of some source for new ones. On the other hand, used Op 50 were possibly the most available of the entire set, so that is good. I saw one on eBay just last week (disk 2). In my opinion, Op 50 is the weakest of the Festetics efforts. However, their Op 54/55 is very good, and if you can run across a set you would likely be pleased with it. You can find all of the Festetics boxes if you are persistent. Things change over time, and probably when I wrote that originally they were very scarce, but lately there have been quite a few available.

If the Buchberger's are your current reference point, I think you will find almost any their version to be rather on the slow side, since they are the fastest I've heard in virtually every quartet.

You are correct about Mosaiques. They have done only these: 20, 33, 51, 64, 76, 77 & 103 (which they rightly call Op 77 #3). Chances are slim they will ever do the remaining ones, sad to say.

Cheers,
8)

Say a bit more about what you're looking for from Op 50 if you can, and why you were disappointed with Festetics.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 23, 2014, 04:19:00 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on April 22, 2014, 11:52:25 PM
Say a bit more about what you're looking for from Op 50 if you can, and why you were disappointed with Festetics.

Without going back and listening again after a couple of years, my main recollection is that they seemed to drag in places where they should have been forging ahead. Ideally I am always looking for a crisp, clean sound and never dragging. In many spots the sound seemed muddy to me. This is not the norm for them, or for gut strings in general. If you would compare Op 50 to their recording of Op 64, you would think it was a different band. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 23, 2014, 10:48:11 AM

I feel the same as MC (but have not heard the Jerusalem Q nor the London Haydn). Nice recordings there. I like the Griller Quartet in Op 74, there that finishes your list. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: torut on April 23, 2014, 11:47:18 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on April 22, 2014, 11:45:43 PM
Over the past three years, I have been on a bit of a journey with the Quartets. I acquired:
Angeles box set (very good and a great choice if you want them all)
Op 9: London Haydn Quartet (Hyperion)
Op 17: Auryn Quartet
Op 20/33: Mosaiques
Op 50: Tetrai
Op 54/74: Endellion
Op 64: Festetics
Op 71: Kodaly (On Naxos)
Op 76: Takacs
Op. 77: Lindsays
A disc of Jerusalem Quartet (selected choices, volume 2)

My own conclusion is that the Angeles are just consistently good and I would not be disappointed if that was all I had. That said, the Endellion was my first purchase and it still sounds really good (they were recommended above). I also like the Takacs, Lindsays, and London Haydn Quartets very much (roughly in that order, though first two are really neck and neck). The others are not bad, but I have not taken to them as much, particularly the Mosaiques and Festetics, who are popular here. The one disappointment was the Jerusalem Quartet. They were very popular here, and maybe I expected too much as a result, but I did not think them anything special (though they are played just fine).

Like you, the reason I purchased so many different quartets was that I wanted to hear for myself the different groups, and though it cost me more, I am so glad that I did.

I once thought of purchasing Angeles box set, but Haydn Edition was so tempting, and Buchberger was receiving good reviews, I decided to take it. I am very happy with it. (I have not heard any Angeles, so there is no comparison.) Haydn Edition is very satisfying overall. (By the way, I think the box was called 'Vol. 1.' Do you know whether Vol. 2 will be released, and if so, when?)
For a long time, Kodaly's Op. 76 Naxos disc (purchased around early 90's) had been the only Haydn SQ CD I had, and I didn't pay much attention to it. Recently I heard Mosaiques and L'Archibudelli which were very refreshing, listened to Kodaly disc again and found Haydn's SQs so good, then I have come to want to hear all of them.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on April 23, 2014, 12:36:36 PM

Quote from: torut on April 23, 2014, 11:47:18 AM
I once thought of purchasing Angeles box set, but Haydn Edition was so tempting, and Buchberger was receiving good reviews, I decided to take it. I am very happy with it. (I have not heard any Angeles, so there is no comparison.) Haydn Edition is very satisfying overall. (By the way, I think the box was called 'Vol. 1.' Do you know whether Vol. 2 will be released, and if so, when?)
For a long time, Kodaly's Op. 76 Naxos disc (purchased around early 90's) had been the only Haydn SQ CD I had, and I didn't pay much attention to it. Recently I heard Mosaiques and L'Archibudelli which were very refreshing, listened to Kodaly disc again and found Haydn's SQs so good, then I have come to want to hear all of them.

By Haydn Edition, are you referring to the 150 cd Brilliant box? I don't think there was a second volume of that. Maybe someone else knows for sure.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 23, 2014, 12:40:28 PM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on April 23, 2014, 12:36:36 PM
By Haydn Edition, are you referring to the 150 cd Brilliant box? I don't think there was a second volume of that. Maybe someone else knows for sure.

There certainly isn't, there probably won't be. They included too many of the primo ingredients in the first box, there is not enough recordings or music left to appeal to the market for a second one. Well, there's ME of course, but I'm only buying one copy of this one. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: torut on April 23, 2014, 05:25:24 PM

Yes, the Brilliant Classics 150-CD set is not a complete set. I read somewhere that the total discs of a complete Haydn set would be 230~240. Therefore, if Vol. 2 exists, it will be 80~90 CD set. The missing works in the current set are not only some of SQs and baryton trios but also string trios, more songs, Masses, etc., I believe. I think the second set was in Brilliant Classics's original plan, but I cannot find the source. Maybe just rumor?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 23, 2014, 05:49:01 PM

Quote from: torut on April 23, 2014, 05:25:24 PM
Yes, the Brilliant Classics 150-CD set is not a complete set. I read somewhere that the total discs of a complete Haydn set would be 230~240. Therefore, if Vol. 2 exists, it will be 80~90 CD set. The missing works in the current set are not only some of SQs and baryton trios but also string trios, more songs, Masses, etc., I believe. I think the second set was in Brilliant Classics original plan, but I cannot find the source. Maybe just rumor?

I was told by a friend in France that when HE bought the box, early after its release, it had a big sticker on it that said "Volume 1". I have not heard this from anyone else, it suggests that there was a plan, and it was abandoned early on.

There won't be more baryton trios, all 126 of them are on there. However, it lacks the disk which was sold in the Complete Baryton Works box as 'Disk 18', containing various duos for baryton and cello and several other items, many of which are simply the incipits of lost works right from the Entwurf Katalog. And as you say, there are 2 or 3 disks of string quartets, the string trios, many, many divertimentos and the notturnos and scherzandos, and not to forget several of the operas, all of the insertion arias, and innumerable lesser pieces. I suppose you could put as many as 70 disks together there, depends how well you lay them out. They should hire me to do it for them, I would be delighted. :) At the very least they should have offered a small box of 4 or 5 disks which would have filled out the SQs and Baryton works, if nothing else. I bought the baryton box separately just for that purpose.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: torut on April 23, 2014, 06:19:59 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 23, 2014, 05:49:01 PM
I was told by a friend in France that when HE bought the box, early after its release, it had a big sticker on it that said "Volume 1". I have not heard this from anyone else, it suggests that there was a plan, and it was abandoned early on.

There won't be more baryton trios, all 126 of them are on there. However, it lacks the disk which was sold in the Complete Baryton Works box as 'Disk 18', containing various duos for baryton and cello and several other items, many of which are simply the incipits of lost works right from the Entwurf Katalog. And as you say, there are 2 or 3 disks of string quartets, the string trios, many, many divertimentos and the notturnos and scherzandos, and not to forget several of the operas, all of the insertion arias, and innumerable lesser pieces. I suppose you could put as many as 70 disks together there, depends how well you lay them out. They should hire me to do it for them, I would be delighted. :) At the very least they should have offered a small box of 4 or 5 disks which would have filled out the SQs and Baryton works, if nothing else. I bought the baryton box separately just for that purpose.

8)

You purchased both the 150-CD set and the complete baryton set. :o :) Regarding SQs, luckily I can buy separated discs, although there still be duplication because they are 2-CD set. (I need to buy not only Op. 50 No. 4-6 but also No. 1-3, for example.)
Maybe, if they reserved some popular works for Vol. 2, there might have been more chance that it would be eventually released...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 23, 2014, 06:28:50 PM

Quote from: torut on April 23, 2014, 06:19:59 PM
You purchased both the 150-CD set and the complete baryton set. :o :) Regarding SQs, luckily I can buy separated discs, although there still be duplication because they are 2-CD set. (I need to buy not only Op. 50 No. 4-6 but also No. 1-3, for example.)
Maybe, if they reserved some popular works for Vol. 2, there might have been more chance that it would be eventually released...

Yes, that is exactly the point I was trying (poorly) to make earlier. When you put all the symphonies, piano sonatas, string quartets, piano trios AND the only existing recording of all the baryton trios, you don't leave a lot of space to attract future customers. Especially when Naxos has a superb set of masses, for example, for which I paid only a few dollars. So even the people who like the rarer works can easily be satisfied elsewhere. The only real challenge is the operas, since even buying the Decca set of Dorati still leaves gaps. BIS did an outstanding job with the Huss disks. If you are really looking to expand your Haydn interest, I can do no better service to you than to encourage you to spend a few dollars more and get the BIS series with Huss/Haydn Sinfonietta, and if you are further interested, they also are the publishers of Brautigam's complete keyboard box set. Perhaps I will publish a list on my blog of the complete works of Haydn all on period instruments. I am proof it can (almost) be done! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: torut on April 23, 2014, 07:16:27 PM

Sorry for missing it.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 23, 2014, 06:28:50 PM
Perhaps I will publish a list on my blog of the complete works of Haydn all on period instruments. I am proof it can (almost) be done! :D

I am very interested in it! Sometimes it was difficult to know, for example, if a string quartet group is of modern style using modern instruments, pure period style/instruments, HIP using modern instruments, etc. even if I checked its web site.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on April 24, 2014, 02:09:09 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 23, 2014, 06:28:50 PM
Yes, that is exactly the point I was trying (poorly) to make earlier. When you put all the symphonies, piano sonatas, string quartets, piano trios AND the only existing recording of all the baryton trios, you don't leave a lot of space to attract future customers. Especially when Naxos has a superb set of masses, for example, for which I paid only a few dollars. So even the people who like the rarer works can easily be satisfied elsewhere. The only real challenge is the operas, since even buying the Decca set of Dorati still leaves gaps. BIS did an outstanding job with the Huss disks. If you are really looking to expand your Haydn interest, I can do no better service to you than to encourage you to spend a few dollars more and get the BIS series with Huss/Haydn Sinfonietta, and if you are further interested, they also are the publishers of Brautigam's complete keyboard box set. Perhaps I will publish a list on my blog of the complete works of Haydn all on period instruments. I am proof it can (almost) be done! :D

8)

I can second the Huss. Very good stuff. Same with the Naxos masses too. And the Dorati operas. Shoot, it looks like I'm a groupie! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2014, 04:13:22 AM

Quote from: torut on April 23, 2014, 07:16:27 PM
Sorry for missing it.I am very interested in it! Sometimes it was difficult to know, for example, if a string quartet group is of modern style using modern instruments, pure period style/instruments, HIP using modern instruments, etc. even if I checked its web site.

You are certainly correct about that! I suspect that, like me, you have wasted a fair amount of time on Goggle trying to find this information. I wonder if it is obscure because parties in both camps would be trying to lure in buyers without telling them the whole truth. It's silly, whatever the reason for being intentionally oblique. >:(

Quote from: mc ukrneal on April 24, 2014, 02:09:09 AM
I can second the Huss. Very good stuff. Same with the Naxos masses too. And the Dorati operas. Shoot, it looks like I'm a groupie! :)

Well, we're both Haydn groupies, no doubt. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: HIPster on April 24, 2014, 08:24:11 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 24, 2014, 04:13:22 AM

Well, we're both Haydn groupies, no doubt. :)

8)

Add me to the list please! ;)

Inspired by this thread, specifically a few pages back, I just purchased this recording:
[asin]B000027EOM[/asin]

Very much looking forward to arriving from the marketplace seller! Lindberg is one of my favorite lute players and the Drottningholm Baroque Ensemble is very fine in my experience with them (aside - their Vivaldi lute recording with Lindberg and Monica Hugget is outstanding).

The price for the disc was certainly right, coming in under $5 US shipped. . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 26, 2014, 09:18:11 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on April 22, 2014, 11:45:43 PMThe one disappointment was the Jerusalem Quartet.

Ha! Our consistency is something to behold, Neal, and unwavering ;D Of course the Jerusalem is my favorite quartet in Haydn. Wish they'd do them all.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on April 26, 2014, 10:29:25 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 26, 2014, 09:18:11 AM
Ha! Our consistency is something to behold, Neal, and unwavering ;D Of course the Jerusalem is my favorite quartet in Haydn. Wish they'd do them all.

Sarge

And despite that, I keep buying the stuff!! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: torut on April 26, 2014, 04:45:57 PM

I purchased FLAC of SQ Op. 50 No. 4-6 by Salomon Quartet. The playing is nice and decent. (My first impression.) I like it, thank you.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 23, 2014, 06:28:50 PM
BIS did an outstanding job with the Huss disks. If you are really looking to expand your Haydn interest, I can do no better service to you than to encourage you to spend a few dollars more and get the BIS series with Huss/Haydn Sinfonietta, and if you are further interested, they also are the publishers of Brautigam's complete keyboard box set.

Huss/Haydn Sinfornietta discs seem good, but firstly, I am interested in the string trios. Are the following two the only available discs? According to this post (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg789044/topicseen.html#msg789044), there would be total 8 discs? (By the way, a search of "string trio" hit only few posts in this thread. Not so much interest? :()

[asin]B000CAKZJO[/asin] [asin]B000M2DJTA[/asin]

QuotePerhaps I will publish a list on my blog of the complete works of Haydn all on period instruments. I am proof it can (almost) be done! :D

If you already have it, could you show the list of discs of string trios on period instruments? :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 26, 2014, 05:40:59 PM

Quote from: torut on April 26, 2014, 04:45:57 PM
I purchased FLAC of SQ Op. 50 No. 4-6 by Salomon Quartet. The playing is nice and decent. (My first impression.) I like it, thank you.

Huss/Haydn Sinfornietta discs seem good, but firstly, I am interested in the string trios. Are the following two the only available discs? According to this post (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg789044/topicseen.html#msg789044), there would be total 8 discs? (By the way, a search of "string trio" hit only few posts in this thread. Not so much interest? :()

[asin]B000CAKZJO[/asin] [asin]B000M2DJTA[/asin]
If you already have it, could you show the list of discs of string trios on period instruments? :)

Good, I'm glad you liked that. I don't quite understand why those Salomon disks were kept so quietly. Perhaps they are too 'authentic' in style for many? That is another Haydn cycle which finishes 90% and then quits with the end in sight. :(

Well, you have listed the entire PI series of trio recordings. There are no more. The only other trio recordings are on modern instruments, and they are the Vienna Philharmonic Trio.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnStringTriosvol3cover.jpg)

All 6 have the same cover picture, so no point posting them all! In any case, this is a wonderful set, even the sharper sound of the metal strings isn't off-putting. They are rare and difficult to find, but for the last year or so there was a big importation from Japan, and other than the writing on the packaging being in Kanji, they are identical. I was fortunate to e able to pick up Vol 5 & 6 this way. I got mine at Archiv music, and they might still have some. I haven't shopped for them since then.

And that, my friend, is it. 8 disks, 2 PI and 6 MI. At least it is possible for us to have all of them, something which couldn't be said before 2008! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: torut on April 26, 2014, 07:13:21 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 26, 2014, 05:40:59 PM
Good, I'm glad you liked that. I don't quite understand why those Salomon disks were kept so quietly. Perhaps they are too 'authentic' in style for many? That is another Haydn cycle which finishes 90% and then quits with the end in sight. :(

I didn't know that they quitted recording Haydn SQs. I have an old book about ancient music & period instruments that lists the recordings of Haydn SQs by groups of period instruments, as of 1995. Salomon was the only group that recorded Op. 50 & Op. 54 at that time. Since then, for about 20 years, Festetics is the only quartet of period instruments that recorded them. ???

Quote
Well, you have listed the entire PI series of trio recordings. There are no more. The only other trio recordings are on modern instruments, and they are the Vienna Philharmonic Trio.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnStringTriosvol3cover.jpg)

All 6 have the same cover picture, so no point posting them all! In any case, this is a wonderful set, even the sharper sound of the metal strings isn't off-putting. They are rare and difficult to find, but for the last year or so there was a big importation from Japan, and other than the writing on the packaging being in Kanji, they are identical. I was fortunate to e able to pick up Vol 5 & 6 this way. I got mine at Archiv music, and they might still have some. I haven't shopped for them since then.

And that, my friend, is it. 8 disks, 2 PI and 6 MI. At least it is possible for us to have all of them, something which couldn't be said before 2008! :)

8)

Thank you for the information. I understood the situation. I will try some of the discs. (Without Brilliant Classics's help, it is expensive to gather unpopular work... ;D)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on April 27, 2014, 06:58:53 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 23, 2014, 04:19:00 AM
Without going back and listening again after a couple of years, my main recollection is that they seemed to drag in places where they should have been forging ahead. Ideally I am always looking for a crisp, clean sound and never dragging. In many spots the sound seemed muddy to me. This is not the norm for them, or for gut strings in general. If you would compare Op 50 to their recording of Op 64, you would think it was a different band. :)

8)

I like the thick dark sound of Festetics in op 50 because it's full of colour, the sound is interesting because of the timbres. The cello is really nice I think.

You'd have to locate the moments when they drag for me to comment properly, but it's true that I'm open to less than lithe styles. I'm not at all bothered by their tempos in fast movements.

I think you're exaggerating the differences between op 50 and op 64 from the Festetics.

I haven't heard anythiing from the Salomon.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 27, 2014, 11:52:57 AM

1772 was a watershed year in Haydn's work record. It was the year he turned 40, maybe that served as some sort of impetus to up his game, so to say. I have been working for the last week on just trying to encapsulate the three symphonies of the year. Here is my modest effort, it's not in B Major, but I like it anyway. :)

The greatest year for symphonies (so far) (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/04/1772-the-music-part-1-.html)

Thanks for reading, glad to discuss.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 27, 2014, 12:46:29 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on April 27, 2014, 06:58:53 AM
I like the thick dark sound of Festetics in op 50 because it's full of colour, the sound is interesting because of the timbres. The cello is really nice I think.

You'd have to locate the moments when they drag for me to comment properly, but it's true that I'm open to less than lithe styles. I'm not at all bothered by their tempos in fast movements.

I think you're exaggerating the differences between op 50 and op 64 from the Festetics.

I haven't heard anything from the Salomon.

Like so many other people, when I relisten after a few years away, as I did this morning with this one, things sound different somehow. In this case, that is true too. I came to this set after 5 years enjoying the Tokyo Quartet, and the differences in sound were huge to me at the time. It does have a different timbre from Op 64, and of course I exaggerated the degree of it, not that anyone else ever would do such a thing, I know. :)

I have the entire set of the Salomon's, they are not god's gift to Haydn, but they are deserving of more than the obscure fate they have gained to date. Perhaps it is a lack of Op 76 which doomed them...

It will be interesting to see what the Haydn London Quartet come up with for their Op 50. Damn, I hope it's a gem!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on April 27, 2014, 09:07:59 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 27, 2014, 12:46:29 PM
Like so many other people, when I relisten after a few years away, as I did this morning with this one, things sound different somehow. In this case, that is true too. I came to this set after 5 years enjoying the Tokyo Quartet, and the differences in sound were huge to me at the time. It does have a different timbre from Op 64, and of course I exaggerated the degree of it, not that anyone else ever would do such a thing, I know. :)

The ambiance of the Op. 50 and Op. 64 recordings sounds different to me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 28, 2014, 03:34:06 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 27, 2014, 11:52:57 AM
1772 was a watershed year in Haydn's work record. It was the year he turned 40, maybe that served as some sort of impetus to up his game, so to say. I have been working for the last week on just trying to encapsulate the three symphonies of the year. Here is my modest effort, it's not in B Major, but I like it anyway. :)

The greatest year for symphonies (so far) (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/04/1772-the-music-part-1-.html)

Thanks for reading, glad to discuss.

8)

"The genius of fine ideas and fancy of Haydn, Ditters and Filtz were praised, but their mixture of serious and comic was disliked, particularly as there is more of the latter than the former in their work, and as for rules, they knew but little of them..."

That quote tends to confirm the North German stereotype ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2014, 04:21:00 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 28, 2014, 03:34:06 AM
"The genius of fine ideas and fancy of Haydn, Ditters and Filtz were praised, but their mixture of serious and comic was disliked, particularly as there is more of the latter than the former in their work, and as for rules, they knew but little of them..."

That quote tends to confirm the North German stereotype ;D

Sarge

:) I can't imagine Haydn taking that personally (which he certainly did): it and a thousand others are aimed at Austria and Austrians in general, who not only had a totally different culture, but were Catholics besides! :o Some of these quotes are gems, I'll use some more down the road. Too good to let pass. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2014, 04:23:09 AM

Quote from: Old Listener on April 27, 2014, 09:07:59 PM
The ambiance of the Op. 50 and Op. 64 recordings sounds different to me.

Yes, I think so. It isn't just the gravitas of the music, it's the whole package. Of course, if I was picking out one set for people to try out, it would be Op. 64. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 01, 2014, 06:29:03 PM

I've been listening to the Opus 20 quartets a lot lately. My latest essay discusses a bit about their context and some interesting aspects of them. Please check it out, I always enjoy discussing with you. :)

Not just great symphonies, string quartets to go with them! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/05/1772-the-music-part-2-.html)

Thanks for reading!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: torut on May 01, 2014, 07:25:30 PM

Quote from: Justin on March 30, 2014, 07:44:02 PM
Bought this last night - very enjoyable! Now I'm tempted to start collecting the Wiener Philharmonic Trio's discs of Haydn string trios, although they seem a bit spendy and hard to come by.

[asin]B000CAKZJO[/asin]

I bought this vol. 1 of the string trios by Camerata Berolinensis, heard it twice so far, and I was really surprised. I particularly like the B minor trio, Hob.V:3, which is very touching. The sound is clean and pure. I guess it may be due to that the trio consists of 2 violins and a cello, and period instruments are used. I had anticipated something light, entertaining music, but it is tranquilizingly beautiful.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 31, 2014, 03:00:15 PM
[...] they are fine works, nothing lame or beginnerish about them.

I agree.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: torut on May 01, 2014, 08:39:22 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 01, 2014, 06:29:03 PM
I've been listening to the Opus 20 quartets a lot lately. My latest essay discusses a bit about their context and some interesting aspects of them. Please check it out, I always enjoy discussing with you. :)

Not just great symphonies, string quartets to go with them! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/05/1772-the-music-part-2-.html)

Thanks for reading!
8)

Thank you for this, it was an interesting read. I remember reading a book or article telling that Op. 33 was the groundbreaking work, truly the first inventive quartet, or something like that. I myself cannot make a conclusion by just hearing the music ;D, but this kind of discussion is stimulating.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on May 01, 2014, 09:21:15 PM

I think this new CPO release looks extremely enticing:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0761203782420.jpg)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/rear/0/0761203782420.jpg)

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/joseph-haydn-schottische-lieder-englische-canzonetten/hnum/3097659

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 02, 2014, 04:20:49 AM

Quote from: torut on May 01, 2014, 08:39:22 PM
Thank you for this, it was an interesting read. I remember reading a book or article telling that Op. 33 was the groundbreaking work, truly the first inventive quartet, or something like that. I myself cannot make a conclusion by just hearing the music ;D, but this kind of discussion is stimulating.

Thank you. Well, yes, for years some influential musicologists have stated that Op 33 was ~the beginning of the Classic Era. As though there actually was such a thing! :) A few notable exceptions to that were Donald Tovey, whom I quoted, and Robbins-Landon and Laszlo Somfai, who doesn't always fall on the right side of things, but in this case he did. As Tovey says, Op 20 has it all. Further efforts were not an improvement, they were variations on a theme. That sounds like the beginning has been reached, to me. :)

I agree, this IS stimulating, especially if history is your ideal.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 02, 2014, 04:22:19 AM

Quote from: Gordo on May 01, 2014, 09:21:15 PM
I think this new CPO release looks extremely enticing:

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0761203782420.jpg)

(http://www.jpc.de/image/w600/rear/0/0761203782420.jpg)

http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/joseph-haydn-schottische-lieder-englische-canzonetten/hnum/3097659

It will be mine. I actually have 3 or 4 disks of this same type already, I never tire of them. The concept of duplicating a salon atmosphere for a recital has great appeal for me. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 02, 2014, 05:23:15 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 01, 2014, 06:29:03 PM
I've been listening to the Opus 20 quartets a lot lately. My latest essay discusses a bit about their context and some interesting aspects of them. Please check it out, I always enjoy discussing with you. :)

Not just great symphonies, string quartets to go with them! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/05/1772-the-music-part-2-.html)

Thanks for reading!
8)

Thank you, this is on the top of my morning reading over tea tomorrow!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 02, 2014, 04:54:36 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 01, 2014, 06:29:03 PM
I've been listening to the Opus 20 quartets a lot lately. My latest essay discusses a bit about their context and some interesting aspects of them. Please check it out, I always enjoy discussing with you. :)

Not just great symphonies, string quartets to go with them! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/05/1772-the-music-part-2-.html)

Thanks for reading!
8)

Fine job, Gurn.
The Op.20 are excellent, and I love that you chose The London Haydn Quartet for a rec. I feel they explore the furthest depths of these quartets.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 02, 2014, 05:09:14 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 02, 2014, 04:54:36 PM
Fine job, Gurn.
The Op.20 are excellent, and I love that you chose The London Haydn Quartet for a rec. I feel they explore the furthest depths of these quartets.

Thanks, Greg, I'm pleased you enjoyed it. For me, when the LHQ started out (in Op 9 & 17), they were just too serious. Those works blossom with a lighter touch. When they got to Op 20 & 33 they seemed to have found their footing, and the results are far better.

These last two essays have been the most difficult so far, since I think the works involved are the finest music of its time, everyone knows this music, and it wouldn't do to screw up! :) I'm pleased though, no death threats (to date...). :laugh:

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 02, 2014, 05:44:41 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 02, 2014, 05:09:14 PM
Thanks, Greg, I'm pleased you enjoyed it. For me, when the LHQ started out (in Op 9 & 17), they were just too serious.

Probably too intent on showing the world that the quartets were world-class art.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 02, 2014, 05:47:40 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on May 02, 2014, 05:44:41 PM
Probably too intent on showing the world that the quartets were world-class art.

And that they were world-class players. Which they are. I would love to hear them play Op 1 & 2, now that they are a bit mellower. With a violone instead of (or doubling, why not?)) the cello, of course.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: torut on May 03, 2014, 06:37:15 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 02, 2014, 04:20:49 AM
Thank you. Well, yes, for years some influential musicologists have stated that Op 33 was ~the beginning of the Classic Era. As though there actually was such a thing! :) A few notable exceptions to that were Donald Tovey, whom I quoted, and Robbins-Landon and Laszlo Somfai, who doesn't always fall on the right side of things, but in this case he did. As Tovey says, Op 20 has it all. Further efforts were not an improvement, they were variations on a theme. That sounds like the beginning has been reached, to me. :)

I agree, this IS stimulating, especially if history is your ideal.

8)

In the new preface, written in 1997, of Charles Rosen's The Classical Style (I have not read it at all, just read only the preface ;D), Rosen mentioned a complaint by Alan Tyson that Rosen begins the discussion of the string quartets with Op. 33, and Tyson believed the earlier works (Op. 17 & 20) should be studied in greater depth. Rosen wrote that 'obbligato accompaniment' ("a texture in which the accompanying voices, while still subordinate to the main voice, are created from the same motifs that make up the principal themes") first appeared in Op. 33. I don't know if that is true. (No such things in Op. 20? And how significant is it?) Also he wrote that Haydn "applied his symphonic experiments to quartets literature for the first time." (Yes, I need to read the book to understand what it means ...)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 03, 2014, 06:59:29 PM

Quote from: torut on May 03, 2014, 06:37:15 PM
In the new preface, written in 1997, of Charles Rosen's The Classical Style (I have not read it at all, just read only the preface ;D), Rosen mentioned a complaint by Alan Tyson that Rosen begins the discussion of the string quartets with Op. 33, and Tyson believed the earlier works (Op. 17 & 20) should be studied in greater depth. Rosen wrote that 'obbligato accompaniment' ("a texture in which the accompanying voices, while still subordinate to the main voice, are created from the same motifs that make up the principal themes") first appeared in Op. 33. I don't know if that is true. (No such things in Op. 20? And how significant is it?) Also he wrote that Haydn "applied his symphonic experiments to quartets literature for the first time." (Yes, I need to read the book to understand what it means ...)

No doubt; Rosen is writing for more educated people than myself. :) However, it is important to understand that not everyone agrees with him. Are those two things he mentions also the two defining properties for Classic Style? They would seem to be by his personal interpretation of it, but clearly not everyone is in agreement. And in fact, the real question is more essential than this; is there such a thing as Classic Style, and does it differ in any substantial way from what preceded it and what followed it? Is Classic style primarily homophonic music written by the rules of the tonal system? And if so, then why is Haydn Classical and Tchaikovsky Romantic? They both wrote music that was primarily homophonic and which conformed to the rules of the tonal system. If you are me, then you look at this as a secondary issue because the history of the music is more interesting than the structure. I suppose the fact that I find a lot more literature devoted to structure than to history is the root of my occasional rant. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: torut on May 03, 2014, 09:59:52 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 03, 2014, 06:59:29 PM
No doubt; Rosen is writing for more educated people than myself. :) However, it is important to understand that not everyone agrees with him. Are those two things he mentions also the two defining properties for Classic Style? They would seem to be by his personal interpretation of it, but clearly not everyone is in agreement. And in fact, the real question is more essential than this; is there such a thing as Classic Style, and does it differ in any substantial way from what preceded it and what followed it? Is Classic style primarily homophonic music written by the rules of the tonal system? And if so, then why is Haydn Classical and Tchaikovsky Romantic? They both wrote music that was primarily homophonic and which conformed to the rules of the tonal system. If you are me, then you look at this as a secondary issue because the history of the music is more interesting than the structure. I suppose the fact that I find a lot more literature devoted to structure than to history is the root of my occasional rant. :D

8)

Those are my questions, and the history of the music is interesting to me, but I also want to know the technical explanation for an assertion about influential relationships (or lack of it) between works, composers, or periods. My difficulty is that I am not sure if a statement (such as Rosen's) has an objective evidence or it is just an arbitrary, personal opinion.
To my musically uneducated ears, Op. 20 is "too beautiful" to be treated as less significant. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 04, 2014, 06:15:37 AM

Quote from: torut on May 03, 2014, 09:59:52 PM
Those are my questions, and the history of the music is interesting to me, but I also want to know the technical explanation for an assertion about influential relationships (or lack of it) between works, composers, or periods. My difficulty is that I am not sure if a statement (such as Rosen's) has an objective evidence or it is just an arbitrary, personal opinion.
To my musically uneducated ears, Op. 20 is "too beautiful" to be treated as less significant. :)

Objective? That is a very difficult decision to make. Since the very definition of 'classic' or 'romantic' is based on subjective criteria (how much galant is too much?), do you have to wait until all of the retrospectively 'classical' forms had been invented? Which is to say, rondo and fugue being incorporated into sonata form, for example. And variation form having surpassed its Baroque style roots. If you (a generic you) use these sorts of criteria for your definition, then the entire Classical era stretches from Op 33 to the death of Mozart, that is to say, 10 years. Because music never stops growing and changing. My own personal, subjective definition would include the run-up decades as well as the ones where the style "broke down" into Romanticism. But then, I'm greedy, I like the music on both sides of the 'Golden Decade'. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: torut on May 04, 2014, 07:16:58 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 04, 2014, 06:15:37 AM
Objective? That is a very difficult decision to make. Since the very definition of 'classic' or 'romantic' is based on subjective criteria (how much galant is too much?), do you have to wait until all of the retrospectively 'classical' forms had been invented? Which is to say, rondo and fugue being incorporated into sonata form, for example. And variation form having surpassed its Baroque style roots. If you (a generic you) use these sorts of criteria for your definition, then the entire Classical era stretches from Op 33 to the death of Mozart, that is to say, 10 years. Because music never stops growing and changing. My own personal, subjective definition would include the run-up decades as well as the ones where the style "broke down" into Romanticism. But then, I'm greedy, I like the music on both sides of the 'Golden Decade'. :)

8)

I see, thank you. Labeling often causes problems, especially when it is used for ranking, but on the other hand, it helps revealing certain aspects. Besides the issue of definition of terms, I like this kind of music whatever it is called.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 04, 2014, 11:53:01 AM

If it was any easier to write symphonies and string quartets, women and children would do it! :laugh: (That's a joke, dammit!). But baryton trios, now, there is a challenge! So I took a look at the lesser known works of 1772, and show them to you here, if you are interested.

Private and Public chamber music (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/05/1772-the-music-part-3-.html)

Check it out, let's discuss.
Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: torut on May 06, 2014, 08:37:43 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 04, 2014, 11:53:01 AM
If it was any easier to write symphonies and string quartets, women and children would do it! :laugh: (That's a joke, dammit!). But baryton trios, now, there is a challenge! So I took a look at the lesser known works of 1772, and show them to you here, if you are interested.

Private and Public chamber music (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/05/1772-the-music-part-3-.html)

Check it out, let's discuss.
Thanks,
8)

Thank you for sharing the nice article, as always. This part is particularly interesting. I want to re-listen to Op. 20 & these baryton trios.

QuoteAnother advantage of having the trios at hand is the possibility of having a 'proving ground' available for new ideas, and working out how to incorporate them usefully. As an example, the fugal finales of the Opus 20 quartets were anticipated and worked out in Trios # 33, 40, 53, 56, 67, 71, 75, 81 (double fugato!) and fully worked out fugues in 97, 101 & 114.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 07, 2014, 04:29:27 AM

Quote from: torut on May 06, 2014, 08:37:43 PM
Thank you for sharing the nice article, as always. This part is particularly interesting. I want to re-listen to Op. 20 & these baryton trios.

Thanks. I did relisten to a couple of those trios with that in mind. It isn't so much the specific fugues you would recognize, it is the problem of working them into the flow of the music. I think one of Haydn's strengths was being able to incorporate preexisting forms into sonata form. As he did in Op 20, but he didn't present a fait accompli, the trios are like sketches you see with other composers. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 10, 2014, 07:06:43 AM

I know that many of you don't share my enthusiasm for Haydn's sacred music, but I collected some items on the mass traditions of 18th century Austria which might interest you. If you want to check it out I would love to discuss!

The quid pro quo (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/05/1772-the-music-part-4-.html)

Thanks! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 12, 2014, 02:06:54 AM

How about this set? Is it any good?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81hkHMP7D%2BL._SL1400_.jpg)

Performers and track list (http://www.brilliantclassics.com/articles/h/haydn-complete-concertos/)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 12, 2014, 04:30:03 AM

Quote from: Florestan on May 12, 2014, 02:06:54 AM
How about this set? Is it any good?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81hkHMP7D%2BL._SL1400_.jpg)

Performers and track list (http://www.brilliantclassics.com/articles/h/haydn-complete-concertos/)

Yes, and the price can't be beat. You can, if time and money are no object, get better performances of each work. But for a complete set, on all counts they can't be beat. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 12, 2014, 04:36:00 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 12, 2014, 04:30:03 AM
You can, if time and money are no object, get better performances of each work.

I already have these

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51oaTmhXQ4L._SL500_AA280_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71S-1W%2BYAXL._SL1300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61pCkcrgC%2BL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

so I was wondering if duplicating them was really worth 20 Euros. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 12, 2014, 04:44:37 AM

Quote from: Florestan on May 12, 2014, 04:36:00 AM
I already have these

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51oaTmhXQ4L._SL500_AA280_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71S-1W%2BYAXL._SL1300_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61pCkcrgC%2BL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

so I was wondering if duplicating them was really worth 20 Euros. :D

I haven't listened to the cello concertos so I can't comment. No one is going to be better than Rostropovich anyway, unless the lack of the sonority of a Baroque cello is a deal breaker for you.

Guglielmi/Arte Arco are the equal of Pinnock/Standage, with a warmer sound overall (Italian v British, you know)

Holzapfel is as good a set of organ concertos as there is out there.

Violante is a fine player, her fortepiano has a slightly different sound than Benedetti's Steinway... :D

You don't have (apparently) a horn or trumpet concerto now. You will have, and about time too.

20€ is higher than I would have expected for that box. I wonder if you will have shopped around for it? I know you don't do much online buying which limits your choices. It isn't like it isn't worth 20€, it's just that I would have expected it to go for less.

If it was me, I would get it. It's you, so.... 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 12, 2014, 04:55:44 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 12, 2014, 04:44:37 AM
I haven't listened to the cello concertos so I can't comment. No one is going to be better than Rostropovich anyway, unless the lack of the sonority of a Baroque cello is a deal breaker for you.

Guglielmi/Arte Arco are the equal of Pinnock/Standage, with a warmer sound overall (Italian v British, you know)

Holzapfel is as good a set of organ concertos as there is out there.

Violante is a fine player, her fortepiano has a slightly different sound than Benedetti's Steinway... :D

You don't have (apparently) a horn or trumpet concerto now. You will have, and about time too.

20€ is higher than I would have expected for that box. I wonder if you will have shopped around for it? I know you don't do much online buying which limits your choices. It isn't like it isn't worth 20€, it's just that I would have expected it to go for less.

If it was me, I would get it. It's you, so.... 0:)

8)

Thanks for the comments. It goes straight to my wishlist, I just hope it won't stay there too long. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on May 12, 2014, 12:41:08 PM

You might also want to check into the Naxos set
[asin]B001NZA0GK[/asin]
the only reason this set does not qualify for the Gurnotheque is that it's not PI (or at least, chiefly not PI).

while you are at it, also check into the Naxos Masses box, which is almost a must have.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 12, 2014, 12:57:18 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 12, 2014, 12:41:08 PM
You might also want to check into the Naxos set
[asin]B001NZA0GK[/asin]
the only reason this set does not qualify for the Gurnotheque is that it's not PI (or at least, chiefly not PI).

while you are at it, also check into the Naxos Masses box, which is almost a must have.

You say "only" as though it is "only". ::)

Big Roge-O on the masses set. If you were going to invest in a masses (only) set, this would be the one. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on May 12, 2014, 01:27:42 PM

Quote from: Florestan on May 12, 2014, 04:55:44 AM
Thanks for the comments. It goes straight to my wishlist, I just hope it won't stay there too long. :D

Great decision!

You also get there an old (and excellent) disk of the concerti for lira, actually played on (a modernized) lira organizzata by Hugo Ruf. A true rarity. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on May 15, 2014, 05:00:23 AM

Woah, this is the farthest I've seen the Haydn thread drop on the composers board!

I've been exploring some Haydn symphonies recently. Very enjoyable. Out of what I've heard, 88 and 99 are my favorites. I know that this is a basic question, but how does Haydn compare to Mozart in terms of tonality/chromaticism/etc.? It seems more daring and more interesting, to me. Mozart still bores me to death, but Haydn somehow doesn't at all. I'm not ecstatic about it like I am with Bartok, Ravel, Mendelssohn, Ligeti, etc., but it is some very good music.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 15, 2014, 05:11:37 AM

Quote from: EigenUser on May 15, 2014, 05:00:23 AMOut of what I've heard, 88 and 99 are my favorites.

The Cat!

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/bUTTHEAD.gif)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on May 15, 2014, 07:19:54 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 15, 2014, 05:11:37 AM

The Cat!

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/bUTTHEAD.gif)

Sarge

You like this one a lot, too?

Why is it "The Cat"?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 15, 2014, 08:57:00 AM

Quote from: EigenUser on May 15, 2014, 07:19:54 AM
You like this one a lot, too?

Why is it "The Cat"?

The first movement's second subject reminds me of cat's meow 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jochanaan on May 15, 2014, 09:53:38 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 15, 2014, 08:57:00 AM
The first movement's second subject reminds me of cat's meow 8)

Sarge

Well, most of Haydn's later symphonies are the cat's meow. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on May 15, 2014, 10:39:14 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 15, 2014, 08:57:00 AM
The first movement's second subject reminds me of cat's meow 8)

Sarge

Ugh, why did you SAY that??? That's all I'll hear now! It's like when someone here on GMG said that the last movement of the Mendelssohn Octet quotes "Hallelujah" chorus, or when someone in my university orchestra pointed out that the section of Bartok's "Dance Suite" we were rehearsing sounds like "Sleigh Ride".

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on May 15, 2014, 10:50:23 AM

Quote from: EigenUser on May 15, 2014, 05:00:23 AM
Woah, this is the farthest I've seen the Haydn thread drop on the composers board!

I've been exploring some Haydn symphonies recently. Very enjoyable. Out of what I've heard, 88 and 99 are my favorites. I know that this is a basic question, but how does Haydn compare to Mozart in terms of tonality/chromaticism/etc.? It seems more daring and more interesting, to me. Mozart still bores me to death, but Haydn somehow doesn't at all. I'm not ecstatic about it like I am with Bartok, Ravel, Mendelssohn, Ligeti, etc., but it is some very good music.

I will get lynched for saying this, but Mozart's symphonies divide into 2 groups, the last 4 and all the rest. The rest are often very nice, but they aren't Mozart in high gear. For that you go to the piano concertos, the operas, and the chamber music. For you specifnicaly I recommend K 452 the piano and wind quintet, and PC 20, 21, 23, 24

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on May 15, 2014, 10:52:25 AM

Quote from: EigenUser on May 15, 2014, 10:39:14 AM
Ugh, why did you SAY that??? That's all I'll hear now! It's like when someone here on GMG said that the last movement of the Mendelssohn Octet quotes "Hallelujah" chorus, or when someone in my university orchestra pointed out that the section of Bartok's "Dance Suite" we were rehearsing sounds like "Sleigh Ride".

I will never say anything about what La Mer sounds like. But my gf says whenever I play it all she can hear is snoring.
>:D :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on May 15, 2014, 10:56:55 AM

5 of the Odiaga pf recordings are dirt cheap at BRO. I bought all five ($8 total I think) and am liking the first one

[asin]B0000049QD[/asin]

Opinions Gurn?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on May 15, 2014, 10:58:19 AM

Quote from: Ken B on May 15, 2014, 10:52:25 AM
I will never say anything about what La Mer sounds like. But my gf says whenever I play it all she can hear is snoring.
>:D :)

That's because you should be listening to "Jeux".

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 15, 2014, 11:10:20 AM

Quote from: Ken B on May 15, 2014, 10:56:55 AM
5 of the Odiaga pf recordings are dirt cheap at BRO. I bought all five ($8 total I think) and am liking the first one

[asin]B0000049QD[/asin]

Opinions Gurn?

I have 6 of them by her. I like her style. Even though the early ones are really harpsichord music, there are enough precedents on fortepiano to be able to say that she is as good as any, technically better than some who are highly rated but too aggressive for this music, which wasn't written for high-class professionals to rip through. I think her playing is more in the spirit of the music. :)

FYI, I think the reason there were an abundance of unsold disks available to BRO to sell is because when they were selling retail, they were trying to get $20+/disk for them and people just weren't buying. I didn't. Glad to have them now though. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 15, 2014, 11:15:51 AM

Quote from: EigenUser on May 15, 2014, 10:39:14 AM
Ugh, why did you SAY that??? That's all I'll hear now!

Remember the old saying, Be careful what you ask for ;D

But seriously, I like cats; being reminded of the cute murderous little furballs is a pleasant association for me.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 15, 2014, 11:17:17 AM

Quote from: jochanaan on May 15, 2014, 09:53:38 AM
Well, most of Haydn's later symphonies are the cat's meow. ;D

Indeed, indeed 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on May 15, 2014, 11:17:33 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 15, 2014, 11:15:51 AM
Remember the old saying, Be careful what you ask for ;D

But seriously, I like cats; being reminded of the cute murderous little furballs is a pleasant association for me.

Sarge

???

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 15, 2014, 11:24:23 AM

Quote from: EigenUser on May 15, 2014, 05:00:23 AM
Woah, this is the farthest I've seen the Haydn thread drop on the composers board!

I've been exploring some Haydn symphonies recently. Very enjoyable. Out of what I've heard, 88 and 99 are my favorites. I know that this is a basic question, but how does Haydn compare to Mozart in terms of tonality/chromaticism/etc.? It seems more daring and more interesting, to me. Mozart still bores me to death, but Haydn somehow doesn't at all. I'm not ecstatic about it like I am with Bartok, Ravel, Mendelssohn, Ligeti, etc., but it is some very good music.

I am not a theoretician, so I can only address your question in a historical context. Mozart was (surprisingly?) very conservative in the early days, I think. And even in his later symphonies he wasn't particularly daring. In his Viennese chamber music he used plenty of chromaticism though. Haydn, OTOH, didn't give a damn. He used chromatics, distant keys, bizarre rhythms; in short, he did as he pleased, but it all makes sense in the larger context of the work. He used chromaticism as an ornament, I think you would say, just as he used other ornaments.

This is probably a reflection of their personalities as well as of their situations in life. Mozart was vulnerable in his public music to the reaction of critics and fans. Haydn was permanently employed by a man who loved and understood music and had a taste for the slightly bizarre and what would have been avant-garde at the time. Big difference in what you are willing to put on paper with those contextual differences. Many Viennese in the 70's and 80's thought Haydn's music was OTT, and frankly, he didn't give a damn. Note that his later music actually was a bit more conservative because now he was relying on sales for income. However, his reputation was so huge by then, that what was isolated and eccentric in the 60's and 70's was on the cutting edge of the mainstream by the 90's.

Sometimes what has come down to us is formed more by unseen circumstances than by the composer's imagination. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 15, 2014, 11:25:27 AM

Quote from: Ken B on May 15, 2014, 10:50:23 AM
I will get lynched for saying this, but Mozart's symphonies divide into 2 groups, the last 4 and all the rest.

I'll be forming the lynch mob. I love 25, 33 and 34.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on May 15, 2014, 11:39:11 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 15, 2014, 11:24:23 AM
I am not a theoretician, so I can only address your question in a historical context. Mozart was (surprisingly?) very conservative in the early days, I think. And even in his later symphonies he wasn't particularly daring. In his Viennese chamber music he used plenty of chromaticism though. Haydn, OTOH, didn't give a damn. He used chromatics, distant keys, bizarre rhythms; in short, he did as he pleased, but it all makes sense in the larger context of the work. He used chromaticism as an ornament, I think you would say, just as he used other ornaments.

This is probably a reflection of their personalities as well as of their situations in life. Mozart was vulnerable in his public music to the reaction of critics and fans. Haydn was permanently employed by a man who loved and understood music and had a taste for the slightly bizarre and what would have been avant-garde at the time. Big difference in what you are willing to put on paper with those contextual differences. Many Viennese in the 70's and 80's thought Haydn's music was OTT, and frankly, he didn't give a damn. Note that his later music actually was a bit more conservative because now he was relying on sales for income. However, his reputation was so huge by then, that what was isolated and eccentric in the 60's and 70's was on the cutting edge of the mainstream by the 90's.

Sometimes what has come down to us is formed more by unseen circumstances than by the composer's imagination. :)

8)

Very interesting and exactly what I wanted to know. If you were a theoretician I wouldn't have been able to understand the explanation because I'm not one, either :). One thing that really struck me was the trio of the third movement of 88. It seemed so ahead of its time -- the jarring rhythm combined with the bagpipe-like drone which doesn't change regardless of what dissonances might occur when juxtaposed with the theme. Almost reminded me of Bartok.

Thanks!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 15, 2014, 11:44:51 AM

Quote from: EigenUser on May 15, 2014, 11:39:11 AM
Very interesting and exactly what I wanted to know. If you were a theoretician I wouldn't have been able to understand the explanation because I'm not one, either :). One thing that really struck me was the trio of the third movement of 88. It seemed so ahead of its time -- the jarring rhythm combined with the bagpipe-like drone which doesn't change regardless of what dissonances might occur when juxtaposed with the theme. Almost reminded me of Bartok.

Thanks!

If Haydn could be narrowed down to one strong point in his work, it would be a really tough choice between his Adagios (which are freaking gorgeous, usually) and his minuets, which are unique in every way, oftentimes hilarious when you try to mentally picture people dancing to this music! :) #88 is a brilliant work on many levels, but the minuet is one-of-a-kind, also one of MY favorites.

To answer a question you put a poll out about: #88 in G, #92 in G, #94 in G & #100 in (that's right!) G are my 4 favorites of the late works. Even if they aren't the four best symphonies (how can you top #103 or 104?) they are so quintessentially Haydnish that there is nothing else to say. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 15, 2014, 11:53:19 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 15, 2014, 11:44:51 AM

To answer a question you put a poll out about: #88 in G, #92 in G, #94 in G & #100 in (that's right!) G are my 4 favorites of the late works. Even if they aren't the four best symphonies (how can you top #103 or 104?) they are so quintessentially Haydnish that there is nothing else to say. :)

8)

That's a brutal poll. Your four, Gurn, could easily be my four...but 93, 95 and 99 were chosen instead (100 or 101 would have been the fourth choice). And yes, how could I not include 103 or 104 (which, along with 88, was the Haydn of choice for 20th century conductors who conducted little other Haydn). Just shows you how great he was.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 15, 2014, 11:57:51 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 15, 2014, 11:53:19 AM
That's a brutal poll. Your four, Gurn, could easily be my four...but 93, 95 and 99 were chosen instead (100 or 101 would have been the fourth choice). And yes, how could I not include 103 or 104 (which, along with 88, was the Haydn of choice for 20th century conductors who conducted little other Haydn). Just shows you how great he was.

Sarge

Brutal? Yes, I didn't even vote. I have ~106 favorites, what can I say? :)

You're right, I only just thought about that, but those are the ones I see with the big time old guys. And 92 also, for good measure. Seriously, you could put a CD together by picking out any 3 symphonies at random and I guarantee it would be an entertaining (at least!) hour of listening. I know, I do it all the time. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on May 15, 2014, 06:49:26 PM

I don't know them as well as y'all (yet)... but my notes say I really liked 88.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on May 15, 2014, 07:57:28 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 15, 2014, 11:25:27 AM
I'll be forming the lynch mob. I love 25, 33 and 34.

Sarge

I love 25, 29, 35 and 36. Can't believe Ken would even exclude 35 and 36!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on May 15, 2014, 09:45:59 PM

I agree that the last 4 Mozart symphonies are in a different league than all the preceding ones. However, 25,28,29,31,33,34, 35 and 36 are in a different league from 1-24, 26,27 and 30.

Picking four favorites among Haydn's symphonies is difficult and pointless for me. The one I'm listening to has a long lead over the others in delivering pleasure. Then I listen to another one and it is the one pleasing me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 16, 2014, 04:29:39 AM

Quote from: Old Listener on May 15, 2014, 09:45:59 PM
Picking four favorites among Haydn's symphonies is difficult and pointless for me. The one I'm listening to has a long lead over the others in delivering pleasure. Then I listen to another one and it is the one pleasing me.

Yeah, Haydn is like that. But there is a certain perverse pleasure in trying to narrow it down to a favorite few...if one is masochistically inclined. And judging by the popularity of the polls, I'd say most GMGers are ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 16, 2014, 05:33:20 AM

Quote from: Old Listener on May 15, 2014, 09:45:59 PM
I agree that the last 4 Mozart symphonies are in a different league than all the preceding ones. However, 25,28,29,31,33,34, 35 and 36 are in a different league from 1-24, 26,27 and 30.

Picking four favorites among Haydn's symphonies is difficult and pointless for me. The one I'm listening to has a long lead over the others in delivering pleasure. Then I listen to another one and it is the one pleasing me.

Quote from: DavidW on May 15, 2014, 07:57:28 PM
I love 25, 29, 35 and 36. Can't believe Ken would even exclude 35 and 36!

I like all of Mozart's symphonies, even the early ones. To expect that the 15 year old boy would produce a greater masterpiece than K550, for example, is pushing the envelope of credulity. But just because it isn't that way, doesn't mean the balance of them suck. I've never felt a need to listen to nothing but masterpieces. Good solid workmanship works out OK for me too. :)

Quote from: Pat B on May 15, 2014, 06:49:26 PM
I don't know them as well as y'all (yet)... but my notes say I really liked 88.

Strongly recommend you listen to it again, I've found it difficult to evaluate Haydn's symphonies on anything less than 30 or 40 listenings.... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: torut on May 16, 2014, 07:41:42 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 15, 2014, 11:44:51 AM
If Haydn could be narrowed down to one strong point in his work, it would be a really tough choice between his Adagios (which are freaking gorgeous, usually) and [...]

Recently I am repeatedly listening to Op. 20, and I found the adagio movements so beautiful. I felt some of them almost ethereal or otherworldly. I didn't realize it before. I also love Beethoven's adagios very much.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 16, 2014, 07:44:10 AM

Quote from: torut on May 16, 2014, 07:41:42 AM
Recently I am repeatedly listening to Op. 20, and I found the adagio movements so beautiful. I felt some of them almost ethereal or otherworldly. I didn't realize it before. I also love Beethoven's adagios very much.

Yes, he was another one who just had a way with slow movements.

You could extract just the slow movements out of a series of Haydn works (not just symphonies) and listen to nothing else and they would be quite satisfactory. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on May 16, 2014, 07:45:30 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 16, 2014, 07:44:10 AM
Yes, he was another one who just had a way with slow movements.

You could extract just the slow movements out of a series of Haydn works (not just symphonies) and listen to nothing else and they would be quite satisfactory. :)

8)

That's like what I do with the Mahler scherzos!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on May 16, 2014, 08:08:10 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 16, 2014, 05:33:20 AM
Strongly recommend you listen to it again, I've found it difficult to evaluate Haydn's symphonies on anything less than 30 or 40 listenings.... :D

LOL... I did listen to it last night (and 89 and 90 for good measure).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: torut on May 16, 2014, 08:14:45 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 16, 2014, 07:44:10 AM
Yes, he was another one who just had a way with slow movements.

You could extract just the slow movements out of a series of Haydn works (not just symphonies) and listen to nothing else and they would be quite satisfactory. :)

8)

You can sell a compilation album Adagio Haydn and it will be a bestseller. ;D (No Haydn in Adagio Karajan? ???)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on May 16, 2014, 05:21:34 PM

Just saw 100. Add to my list of favorites.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 15, 2014, 11:53:19 AM
That's a brutal poll. Your four, Gurn, could easily be my four...but 93, 95 and 99 were chosen instead (100 or 101 would have been the fourth choice). And yes, how could I not include 103 or 104 (which, along with 88, was the Haydn of choice for 20th century conductors who conducted little other Haydn). Just shows you how great he was.

Sarge

Sarge, I'm surprised that 100 isn't your absolute favorite...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 16, 2014, 05:59:26 PM

Quote from: torut on May 16, 2014, 08:14:45 AM
You can sell a compilation album Adagio Haydn and it will be a bestseller. ;D (No Haydn in Adagio Karajan? ???)

:) Yes, it is open for many sequels too, there are dozens of candidates.

Well, Karajan's specialty, bless his heart, was Romantic music. It would be hard to visualize what sort of treatment he would have to put them through in order to Karajanize them sufficiently for a project like that! :o :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 17, 2014, 06:14:33 PM

1773 was an interesting year, pivoting mainly on the visit of the Empress and her retinue to Eszterháza in September. This all certainly kept Haydn busy, if you would like to see what he was up to, by all means, come visit.

The year the Empress stopped by (again) (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/05/1773-the-year.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on May 17, 2014, 07:11:44 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 16, 2014, 05:59:26 PM
:) Yes, it is open for many sequels too, there are dozens of candidates.

Well, Karajan's specialty, bless his heart, was Romantic music. It would be hard to visualize what sort of treatment he would have to put them through in order to Karajanize them sufficiently for a project like that! :o :D

8)

I do not agree about HvK. His specialty was, and I doubt many will agree with me, bringing out structure where it is sometimes a bit hidden. Think Tchaikovsky, Bruckner, Sibelius, Shostakovich vs Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven. The structural strength of the latter 3 is obvious, but not all conductors find it for the first bunch. Herbie did.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 18, 2014, 05:28:40 AM

But if his specialty is bringing out structure . . . in the case of the composers where the structure is obvious, what value does he bring to Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2014, 06:48:07 AM

Quote from: Ken B on May 17, 2014, 07:11:44 PM
I do not agree about HvK. His specialty was, and I doubt many will agree with me, bringing out structure where it is sometimes a bit hidden. Think Tchaikovsky, Bruckner, Sibelius, Shostakovich vs Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven. The structural strength of the latter 3 is obvious, but not all conductors find it for the first bunch. Herbie did.

Certainly so, not saying otherwise. This is why he was such a fine Romantic music conductor, IMO. Haydn doesn't benefit from it though, and may even lose a bit, in that the little details of orchestration which make Haydn what he is tend to disappear. As an example I will say that when Haydn was writing 1 flute part and 2 oboe parts, as he did in many later symphonies, he was writing for 1 flute and 2 oboes. If Tchaikovsky was writing 1 flute and 2 oboe parts, he could take it for granted there would be far more than three people playing those parts together, and write them accordingly. It's a different sort of music for a different sort of situation, and music directors who try to treat them all the same will pay a price. Actually, it was Haydn who paid the price,but you know what I mean.

8)

Quote from: karlhenning on May 18, 2014, 05:28:40 AM
But if his specialty is bringing out structure . . . in the case of the composers where the structure is obvious, what value does he bring to Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven?

Interesting question. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on May 18, 2014, 07:08:57 AM

Last night I watched the BPO play Haydn 98 with Koopman on the DCH. At the very end of the piece, he (the conductor!) suddenly played a little harpsichord that was in front of him (I didn't even notice that it was a harpsichord until he played it -- certainly didn't look like one to me). Here is a preview clip from YouTube. It doesn't include the part with Koopman playing the harpsichord, but it shows it in front of him.

http://www.youtube.com/v/eA__F55uji0

Has anyone seen anything like this before? I've seen soloists conduct before and I know that is quite common, but this seemed odd. Made me laugh.

Also, I've exhausted the (sadly small) supply of Haydn symphonies on the DCH. Are there any particularly good video performances of Haydn symphonies on YouTube that anyone knows about?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2014, 07:18:29 AM

Quote from: EigenUser on May 18, 2014, 07:08:57 AM
Last night I watched the BPO play Haydn 98 with Koopman on the DCH. At the very end of the piece, he (the conductor!) suddenly played a little harpsichord that was in front of him (I didn't even notice that it was a harpsichord until he played it -- certainly didn't look like one to me). Here is a preview clip from YouTube. It doesn't include the part with Koopman playing the harpsichord, but it shows it in front of him.

http://www.youtube.com/v/eA__F55uji0

Has anyone seen anything like this before? I've seen soloists conduct before and I know that is quite common, but this seemed odd. Made me laugh.

Also, I've exhausted the (sadly small) supply of Haydn symphonies on the DCH. Are there any particularly good video performances of Haydn symphonies on YouTube that anyone knows about?

:D Yes, that little bit is famous, in fact. Throughout the first 2 years of the London Concerts (91 & 92), Haydn sat there at the keyboard playing continuo, which he had given up years before but which was still de rigeur in London. Mainly it was to get his face out on public, since the big advertising sales pitch of the Salomon Concerts was that they had Haydn leading the music. So when he wrote the end of this symphony, he included a little obbligato keyboard bit just to show he was actually alive up there. It made you laugh. I think it was intended to make you laugh. Clearly the music could do just fine without it. It is a very Haydnish touch, who else would have done such a thing? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on May 18, 2014, 07:23:26 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2014, 07:18:29 AM
:D Yes, that little bit is famous, in fact. Throughout the first 2 years of the London Concerts (91 & 92), Haydn sat there at the keyboard playing continuo, which he had given up years before but which was still de rigeur in London. Mainly it was to get his face out on public, since the big advertising sales pitch of the Salomon Concerts was that they had Haydn leading the music. So when he wrote the end of this symphony, he included a little obbligato keyboard bit just to show he was actually alive up there. It made you laugh. I think it was intended to make you laugh. Clearly the music could do just fine without it. It is a very Haydnish touch, who else would have done such a thing? :)

8)

That's awesome! Thanks for sharing that story. I love those little quirks in music. Probably why I also like Ligeti so much, too. He's another Hungarian with a very keen sense of musical humor (i.e. the ocarinas in the VC).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2014, 07:40:21 AM

Quote from: EigenUser on May 18, 2014, 07:23:26 AM
That's awesome! Thanks for sharing that story. I love those little quirks in music. Probably why I also like Ligeti so much, too. He's another Hungarian with a very keen sense of musical humor (i.e. the ocarinas in the VC).

I love those little quirks too. Haydn is chock full of them, that was a big part of his initial appeal for me. Given the time frame we are talking about, he was one-of-a-kind. At least part of that is because he could afford to be; his employer was much like us. But the bigger part is that he was one of the great comics of music.

I can't find it right this minute, dammit, but I saw a little YouTube clip the other night by a pianist and he was showing how Haydn intentionally wrote this little bit to make the player look like he had lost his place and had to start over. Only the player didn't lose his place, Haydn wrote it that way. If you were at a salon and actually watching this being played, you couldn't help but think the player had messed it up. I can see Haydn standing over in the corner laughing in his sleeve at all this. That's the kind of guy he was.

In London, there was a violinist who thought he was God's Gift. Haydn wrote his Trio in eb (Hob 31) for Therese Jantzen, a superb pianist and good friend of Haydn, and there is still extant a little note he wrote (on the manuscript) 'wait til so-and-so gets to this part!) where the violin swoops up into the stratosphere where only the bravest dare to go. No way he could play it. Just a little joke. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: torut on May 18, 2014, 07:49:52 AM

Quote from: EigenUser on May 18, 2014, 07:08:57 AM
Also, I've exhausted the (sadly small) supply of Haydn symphonies on the DCH. Are there any particularly good video performances of Haydn symphonies on YouTube that anyone knows about?

This may not what you are looking for, but I found an interesting performance of Symphony No. 104 played by 7 people. I haven't heard anything like this before. Does anyone know if there is any ground for this instrumentation? In any case, this sounds very good.

Haydn - Symphony Hob. 104
Performed by La Tempestad (http://www.latempestad.es/).
Guillermo Peñalver, flute
Farran James & Pablo Prieto, violins
Antonio Clares, viola
Juan Pérez de Albéniz, violoncello
Jorge Muñoz, violone
Silvia Márquez, fortepiano

http://vimeo.com/25071778 (http://vimeo.com/25071778) - I Adagio-Allegro
http://vimeo.com/25072574 (http://vimeo.com/25072574) - II Andante
http://vimeo.com/25076613 (http://vimeo.com/25076613) - III Menuetto
http://vimeo.com/25077246 (http://vimeo.com/25077246) - IV Finale

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2014, 07:54:36 AM

Ah, here is that link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_Cf68kT_Fg

This fellow is quite good. I ran across him on Twitter.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2014, 07:58:33 AM

Quote from: torut on May 18, 2014, 07:49:52 AM
This may not what you are looking for, but I found an interesting performance of Symphony No. 104 played by 7 people. I haven't heard anything like this before. Does anyone know if there is any ground for this instrumentation? In any case, this sounds very good.

Haydn - Symphony Hob. 104
Performed by La Tempestad (http://www.latempestad.es/).
Guillermo Peñalver, flute
Farran James & Pablo Prieto, violins
Antonio Clares, viola
Juan Pérez de Albéniz, violoncello
Jorge Muñoz, violone
Silvia Márquez, fortepiano

http://vimeo.com/25071778 (http://vimeo.com/25071778) - I Adagio-Allegro
http://vimeo.com/25072574 (http://vimeo.com/25072574) - II Andante
http://vimeo.com/25076613 (http://vimeo.com/25076613) - III Menuetto
http://vimeo.com/25077246 (http://vimeo.com/25077246) - IV Finale

I can't remember a septet specifically, but chamber arrangements of the London Symphonies were being published within a few months of their premieres. Salomon himself arranged all of them for Flute, Violin, Cello & Fortepiano. So there is certainly a history for it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on May 18, 2014, 08:09:39 AM

Do not forget the Saxon Pigsticker variations in which he intentionally used the dissonances produced by one of the common temperment systems of the era. Beghin included a video performance on the DVD of his set, which is probably on YouTube. (At the moment I am on a bus traveling up the New Jersey Turnpike, so I can not provide the formal name of the piece.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: torut on May 18, 2014, 08:20:24 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2014, 07:58:33 AM
I can't remember a septet specifically, but chamber arrangements of the London Symphonies were being published within a few months of their premieres. Salomon himself arranged all of them for Flute, Violin, Cello & Fortepiano. So there is certainly a history for it. :)

8)

That's interesting, thank you. So, Haydn himself didn't make such arrangements of his symphonies?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2014, 08:22:59 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 18, 2014, 08:09:39 AM
Do not forget the Saxon Pigsticker variations in which he intentionally used the dissonances produced by one of the common temperment systems of the era. Beghin included a video performance on the DVD of his set, which is probably on YouTube. (At the moment I am on a bus traveling up the New Jersey Turnpike, so I can not provide the formal name of the piece.)

Hob 17:01 Capriccio in G for Clavier on 'Acht Sauschneider müssen seyn' (It takes 8 Strong Men (to castrate a boar))

Yes, a very witty bit indeed. For those of you who don't have this piece by Beghin, he demonstrated that on the keyboard Haydn had, tuned to the commonly used temperament, the 'wolf tone' fell on a note in the Key of G (Eb, IIRC) which was way out of tune. Haydn reserved it for the final variation where they actually cut the boar and it makes a weird sound, perhaps a musical version of a boar getting cut. As I asked earlier, who else but Haydn? Thanks for reminding me of that, Jeffrey, I'm going to play it again as soon as Jacobs has finished 'The Creation'. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2014, 08:25:06 AM

Quote from: torut on May 18, 2014, 08:20:24 AM
That's interesting, thank you. So, Haydn himself didn't make such arrangements of his symphonies?

I think he oversaw some for Artaria in the 1780's, but he didn't do them himself, no. He certainly didn't disapprove of the idea though. It gave more people a chance to enjoy his music. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: torut on May 18, 2014, 08:42:32 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2014, 08:25:06 AM
I think he oversaw some for Artaria in the 1780's, but he didn't do them himself, no. He certainly didn't disapprove of the idea though. It gave more people a chance to enjoy his music. :)

8)

Thank you again. I have not heard much about arrangements of Haydn's symphonies, unlike that of Beethoven's. Maybe just my ignorance.
I heard he reviewed and approved a piano arrangement of The Seven Last Words of Christ by someone, which I like, and my favorite is the string quartet version, which was done by Haydn himself, I believe.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2014, 08:52:37 AM

Quote from: torut on May 18, 2014, 08:42:32 AM
Thank you again. I have not heard much about arrangements of Haydn's symphonies, unlike that of Beethoven's. Maybe just my ignorance.
I heard he reviewed and approved a piano arrangement of The Seven Last Words of Christ by someone, which I like, and my favorite is the string quartet version, which was done by Haydn himself, I believe.

Music publishing didn't arrive in Vienna until 1780, so before then, London, Amsterdam and Paris did it all. Haydn wasn't involved with them anyway, plus he was contractually obligated to not stick his nose into the publishing business. By Beethoven's time, it was standard procedure to arrange big works for home use. Beethoven (rightly) felt that no one could arrange a work as well as the original composer could (plus, he didn't get a cut of someone else's arrangement, let's not forget), so he did quite a few of his own.

What you say about Seven Last Words is the commonly held belief, but recently I read something which said the arrangement of the SQ was exactly the same situation as the keyboard work, so the author (a keyboardist) was rather resentful that the SQ had been accepted into the canon while the keyboard version was an outsider. I don't know enough about this yet to have an opinion (my mind is in 1773 right now), but by 1786 I will know what there is to know and will try to explicate it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 18, 2014, 08:55:34 AM

Quote from: torut on May 18, 2014, 08:42:32 AM
Thank you again. I have not heard much about arrangements of Haydn's symphonies, unlike that of Beethoven's. Maybe just my ignorance.

You might want to check this out.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/dec11/haydn99101104.jpg)

Very nice performances of the Salomon arrangements of 99, 101 and 104 played by Arco Baleno. They've also done 94, 98 and 100.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2014, 09:00:47 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 18, 2014, 08:55:34 AM
You might want to check this out.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/dec11/haydn99101104.jpg)

Very nice performances of the Salomon arrangements of 99, 101 and 104 played by Arco Baleno. They've also done 94, 98 and 100.

Sarge

Thanks, Sarge. The only one of those I have is on the Gaia Scienza disk with the flute trios. I should have a look at them myself, I really enjoyed that 104 that Torut posted. Don't know that group (yet). :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on May 18, 2014, 09:15:36 AM

October 15, 2013 to May 18, 2014 - My journey is completed! And what a journey. :) I've officially listened to all of Haydn's symphonies at least once! 8) Do I get a badge, Gurn? :D

From randomly selected discs, the first symphony I listened to from the Dennis Russell Davies/Stuttgart Kammerorchestra, was in A major - the # 59 "Feuersinfonie", to the final symphony, also in A major, # 28!

An incredible experience. It took awhile, and a lot of binges and then chunks of rest, but it was a thrilling ride!! I now can vote in Greg's favourite Haydn's symphonies poll. :D

[asin]B001NBS5NE[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 18, 2014, 09:19:24 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 18, 2014, 08:55:34 AM
You might want to check this out.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/dec11/haydn99101104.jpg)

Very nice performances of the Salomon arrangements of 99, 101 and 104 played by Arco Baleno. They've also done 94, 98 and 100.

Sarge

I want these. I need these. 8)
I see amazon has both recordings at $6.99 each for the MP3 downloads, not a bad price. I think the combo of flute, SQ and pianoforte is superb, can't wait to hear No. 98.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 18, 2014, 09:23:49 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on May 18, 2014, 09:15:36 AM
October 15, 2013 to May 18, 2014 - My journey is completed! And what a journey. :) I've officially listened to all of Haydn's symphonies at least once! 8) Do I get a badge, Gurn? :D

From randomly selected discs, the first symphony I listened to from the Dennis Russell Davies/Stuttgart Kammerorchestra, was in A major - the # 59 "Feuersinfonie", to the final symphony, also in A major, # 28!

An incredible experience. It took awhile, and a lot of binges and then chunks of rest, but it was a thrilling ride!! I now can vote in Greg's favourite Haydn's symphonies poll. :D

Excited to hear your thoughts on some of your favorites, Ray.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 18, 2014, 09:25:04 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on May 18, 2014, 09:15:36 AM
October 15, 2013 to May 18, 2014 - My journey is completed! And what a journey. :) I've officially listened to all of Haydn's symphonies at least once! 8) Do I get a badge, Gurn? :D

Congrats. Outstanding achievement. I don't know about a badge but you get the boys 8)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/bUTTHEAD.gif)

And I hope you do vote in Monkey Greg's poll...and in the London Symphonies poll too.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2014, 09:31:23 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on May 18, 2014, 09:15:36 AM
October 15, 2013 to May 18, 2014 - My journey is completed! And what a journey. :) I've officially listened to all of Haydn's symphonies at least once! 8) Do I get a badge, Gurn? :D

From randomly selected discs, the first symphony I listened to from the Dennis Russell Davies/Stuttgart Kammerorchestra, was in A major - the # 59 "Feuersinfonie", to the final symphony, also in A major, # 28!

An incredible experience. It took awhile, and a lot of binges and then chunks of rest, but it was a thrilling ride!! I now can vote in Greg's favourite Haydn's symphonies poll. :D

[asin]B001NBS5NE[/asin]

That's outstanding, Ray! Nice symmetry on the A major's, too. :)

Tell me though, will you now not find it impossible to vote in Greg's poll? :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2014, 09:34:02 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 17, 2014, 06:14:33 PM
1773 was an interesting year, pivoting mainly on the visit of the Empress and her retinue to Eszterháza in September. This all certainly kept Haydn busy, if you would like to see what he was up to, by all means, come visit.

The year the Empress stopped by (again) (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/05/1773-the-year.html)

Thanks!
8)

We've been busy today; wanted to push this back up so latecomers will see it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on May 18, 2014, 09:47:58 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 18, 2014, 09:23:49 AM
Excited to hear your thoughts on some of your favorites, Ray.

I will post in the pick your 15 poll.

Word: 2 of my picks haven't been picked by anyone in the poll yet. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on May 18, 2014, 09:49:26 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2014, 09:31:23 AM
That's outstanding, Ray! Nice symmetry on the A major's, too. :)

Tell me though, will you now not find it impossible to vote in Greg's poll? :D

8)

It is hard. There are several "honorable" mentions, that I hated not including in my Top 15. ???

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on May 18, 2014, 09:50:06 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 18, 2014, 09:25:04 AM
Congrats. Outstanding achievement. I don't know about a badge but you get the boys 8)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/bUTTHEAD.gif)

And I hope you do vote in Monkey Greg's poll...and in the London Symphonies poll too.

Sarge

That will do! Rock on Sergeant! 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on May 18, 2014, 09:56:20 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2014, 09:34:02 AM
We've been busy today; wanted to push this back up so latecomers will see it. :)

8)

About Part 3 of Philemon and Baucis: are you sure it was unfortunately lost?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2014, 10:05:26 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 18, 2014, 09:56:20 AM
About Part 3 of Philemon and Baucis: are you sure it was unfortunately lost?

:D The music might have been (probably was) very good. It is the dramatic action that could have stood going down the drain, I think. Part 1, a singspiel called Der Götterat is pretty good in any case. No fawning, just (verbal) dramatic action. Part 3, well, not so much. Still they had to do it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2014, 10:06:26 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on May 18, 2014, 09:49:26 AM
It is hard. There are several "honorable" mentions, that I hated not including in my Top 15. ???

Yes, too many to mention, honorably. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: torut on May 18, 2014, 10:07:02 AM

I don't want to bury the notice of Gurn's valuable article ;D (I just enjoyed the article about Mass for Saint Nicholas hearing it yesterday) but I am looking forward to reading about Seven Last Words.

Thank you Sergeant Rock, it looks very interesting. The instrumentation is a little different from that of La Tempestad (a violone is added) and I don't know if it is a minor arrangement by the group. I now understand that the title of the video "Haydn/ Salomon - Symphony Hob. 104" means "arranged by Salomon." (I thought it simply meant Salomon Symphonies. :))

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2014, 10:12:55 AM

Quote from: torut on May 18, 2014, 10:07:02 AM
I don't want to bury the notice of Gurn's valuable article ;D (I just enjoyed the article about Mass for Saint Nicholas hearing it yesterday) but I am looking forward to reading about Seven Last Words.

Thank you Sergeant Rock, it looks very interesting. The instrumentation is a little different from that of La Tempestad (a violone is added) and I don't know if it is a minor arrangement by the group. I now understand that the title of the video "Haydn/ Salomon - Symphony Hob. 104" means "arranged by Salomon." (I thought it simply meant Salomon Symphonies. :))

Glad you listened to that mass, I quite enjoy it, as I do all of his masses. Nothing dark and dreary here.

In 1 month, I will have been working on this blog for 1 year, I project that I will have covered 24 years in 100 essays, which by extrapolation means I will be doing the Seven Last Words late this year. I'm looking forward to it also, it is one of my favorites, and also one of his all around best works. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on May 18, 2014, 10:49:12 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on May 18, 2014, 05:28:40 AM
But if his specialty is bringing out structure . . . in the case of the composers where the structure is obvious, what value does he bring to Haydn, Mozart, Beethoven?

Exactly my point. Not a lot of value add compared to other conductors. Which is why comparatively HvK does better on stuff like I mentioned, or Holst say.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2014, 10:51:53 AM

Quote from: Ken B on May 18, 2014, 10:49:12 AM
Exactly my point. Not a lot of value add compared to other conductors. Which is why comparatively HvK does better on stuff like I mentioned, or Holst say.

Glad you unobfuscated that, Ken. Like Karl, I thought you meant just the opposite. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on May 18, 2014, 10:56:07 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2014, 07:18:29 AM
:D Yes, that little bit is famous, in fact. Throughout the first 2 years of the London Concerts (91 & 92), Haydn sat there at the keyboard playing continuo, which he had given up years before but which was still de rigeur in London. Mainly it was to get his face out on public, since the big advertising sales pitch of the Salomon Concerts was that they had Haydn leading the music. So when he wrote the end of this symphony, he included a little obbligato keyboard bit just to show he was actually alive up there. It made you laugh. I think it was intended to make you laugh. Clearly the music could do just fine without it. It is a very Haydnish touch, who else would have done such a thing? :)

8)

My name is Joseph Haydn and I approve this symphony.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on May 18, 2014, 06:10:58 PM

Has anyone here seen the documentary "In Search of Haydn"? I watched some of it today and will finish tomorrow. It seems nicely done. Includes nice tours of relevant sections of Esterhazy's castle (there are several, but the one where Haydn worked). They even showed the only portrait of Haydn where he wasn't wearing a wig! :laugh:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2014, 06:14:21 PM

Quote from: EigenUser on May 18, 2014, 06:10:58 PM
Has anyone here seen the documentary "In Search of Haydn"? I watched some of it today and will finish tomorrow. It seems nicely done. Includes nice tours of relevant sections of Esterhazy's castle (there are several, but the one where Haydn worked). They even showed the only portrait of Haydn where he wasn't wearing a wig! :laugh:

Oh sure, we loved it! Grabsky did a very nice job, I think he had things in there which appealed to pretty much any taste in Haydn. That Haydn's sans wig painting is a hoot. He's balder than me! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on May 19, 2014, 01:54:50 PM

Gurn, you must be so proud... ;)
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21529.msg802298.html#msg802298

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 19, 2014, 03:09:47 PM

Quote from: EigenUser on May 19, 2014, 01:54:50 PM
Gurn, you must be so proud... ;)
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21529.msg802298.html#msg802298

You know I am! 0:)

Proud to count you as a Haydnisto! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on May 19, 2014, 05:56:18 PM

I just finished watching "In Search of Haydn". If only every composer had a documentary like that...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 19, 2014, 06:38:58 PM

Quote from: EigenUser on May 19, 2014, 05:56:18 PM
I just finished watching "In Search of Haydn". If only every composer had a documentary like that...

I know, it would be a benefit to anyone. AFAIK, Haydn, Mozart & Beethoven are the lot. Never know, Grabsky could be a man on a mission! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on May 20, 2014, 04:21:12 AM

Quote from: EigenUser on May 19, 2014, 05:56:18 PM
I just finished watching "In Search of Haydn". If only every composer had a documentary like that...

Oh, where did you find this? I'd be interested in watching this.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 20, 2014, 04:47:16 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on May 20, 2014, 04:21:12 AM
Oh, where did you find this? I'd be interested in watching this.

[asin]B0072FEW64[/asin]

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on May 20, 2014, 04:47:48 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 20, 2014, 04:47:16 AM

[asin]B0072FEW64[/asin]

8)

Thanks, Gurn! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on May 20, 2014, 04:51:39 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 20, 2014, 04:47:16 AM

[asin]B0072FEW64[/asin]

8)

I hope they had the insight of interviewing you for this documentary, Gurn! 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on May 20, 2014, 05:39:24 AM

I rented it on YouTube for $3.99.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nk1iMSvnXmg

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on May 20, 2014, 05:41:34 AM

Quote from: EigenUser on May 20, 2014, 05:39:24 AM
I rented it on YouTube for $3.99.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nk1iMSvnXmg

Excellent. Definitely need to watch this. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 20, 2014, 05:43:13 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 19, 2014, 06:38:58 PM
I know, it would be a benefit to anyone. AFAIK, Haydn, Mozart & Beethoven are the lot. Never know, Grabsky could be a man on a mission! :)

8)

When he was here in Boston, he said he was working on Chopin; if so, though, it's not yet released.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 20, 2014, 05:44:22 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 20, 2014, 04:47:16 AM

[asin]B0072FEW64[/asin]

8)

Movie of the Night! Thanks for sharing, everyone.
I didn't realize it was available for rent.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 20, 2014, 06:13:07 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on May 20, 2014, 04:51:39 AM
I hope they had the insight of interviewing you for this documentary, Gurn! 8)

No, their loss, I'm afraid... :D Thanks for that, Ray. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 20, 2014, 06:14:09 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 20, 2014, 05:44:22 AM
Movie of the Night! Thanks for sharing, everyone.
I didn't realize it was available for rent.

Yes, that is a good deal. I'm delighted to have it, of course, but just getting to see it is a good thing for any Haydnisto!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on May 20, 2014, 06:17:50 AM

I like the unintended pun in the title. I assumed that it was intentional, but then I saw the cover of the DVD that Gurn posted and it appears that they made "In Search of Mozart" and "In Search of Beethoven" first.

I'd like to see one on Schumann. His life could be the plot of a novel. Of course, I'd love to see ones on my top three composers, but like that will ever happen.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 20, 2014, 06:42:29 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 20, 2014, 06:14:09 AM
Yes, that is a good deal. I'm delighted to have it, of course . . . .

And a signed copy! 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 20, 2014, 06:43:10 AM

Quote from: EigenUser on May 20, 2014, 06:17:50 AM
I like the unintended pun in the title.

Hadn't ever occurred to me before. Thank you!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 20, 2014, 06:59:14 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on May 20, 2014, 06:42:29 AM
And a signed copy! 8)

Well, I don't like to brag.... 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on May 20, 2014, 12:45:43 PM

Ugh, this is so frustrating >:(. Yesterday, I bought that nice hardbound score of symphonies 1-12. I decided to first buy recordings of 6, 7, and 8 to follow along (since they are the most well-known). Then, I open the score and try to find 6. It turns out that the score isn't symphonies 1-12. Only 1-3. So, I buy recordings of 1-3. I sit down on my hammock (beautiful outside), open the score, and press 'play' for the first one. The music doesn't match!!! >:( >:D ??? :blank:. But, they are clearly labeled 1, 2, and 3 in the title! Well, I have no idea what these numbers are, because it turns out that the actual symphony number is next to the Hoboken number!

Well, I guess it's not a waste of money since it's good music, but I have no idea why there are different numbers.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/csi00g6gbwkfsq8/Photo%20May%2020%2C%204%2041%2036%20PM.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 20, 2014, 01:01:05 PM

Quote from: EigenUser on May 20, 2014, 12:45:43 PM
Ugh, this is so frustrating >:(. Yesterday, I bought that nice hardbound score of symphonies 1-12. I decided to first buy recordings of 6, 7, and 8 to follow along (since they are the most well-known). Then, I open the score and try to find 6. It turns out that the score isn't symphonies 1-12. Only 1-3. So, I buy recordings of 1-3. I sit down on my hammock (beautiful outside), open the score, and press 'play' for the first one. The music doesn't match!!! >:( >:D ??? :blank:. But, they are clearly labeled 1, 2, and 3 in the title! Well, I have no idea what these numbers are, because it turns out that the actual symphony number is next to the Hoboken number!

Well, I guess it's not a waste of money since it's good music, but I have no idea why there are different numbers.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/csi00g6gbwkfsq8/Photo%20May%2020%2C%204%2041%2036%20PM.jpg)

No 87 ;D

What are the other ones?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on May 20, 2014, 01:04:15 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 20, 2014, 01:01:05 PM
No 87 ;D

What are the other ones?

Oops, I meant to put that in my last post. 87, 85, and 83 (oddly marked 1, 2, and 3, respectively).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 20, 2014, 01:04:26 PM

Quote from: EigenUser on May 20, 2014, 12:45:43 PM
Ugh, this is so frustrating >:(. Yesterday, I bought that nice hardbound score of symphonies 1-12. I decided to first buy recordings of 6, 7, and 8 to follow along (since they are the most well-known). Then, I open the score and try to find 6. It turns out that the score isn't symphonies 1-12. Only 1-3. So, I buy recordings of 1-3. I sit down on my hammock (beautiful outside), open the score, and press 'play' for the first one. The music doesn't match!!! >:( >:D ??? :blank:. But, they are clearly labeled 1, 2, and 3 in the title! Well, I have no idea what these numbers are, because it turns out that the actual symphony number is next to the Hoboken number!

Well, I guess it's not a waste of money since it's good music, but I have no idea why there are different numbers.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/csi00g6gbwkfsq8/Photo%20May%2020%2C%204%2041%2036%20PM.jpg)

Well, you are new to Haydn, so you hadn't got a good taste yet of how screwed up it all is. The fact that I try to sort things out as I go along in my blog is not because I like that sort of thing, particularly, it is because I need it sorted for myself! There are a dozen different numbering systems for Haydn's symphonies (especially), and it appears that yours has begun at the Paris Symphonies. The actual chronology of the Paris symphonies is this:

NC KEY HOB
84   A   87
85   Bb   85
86   g   83
87   Eb   84
88   D   86
89   C   82

so your symphony, Hob 87 in A, is actually #1 of the Paris works.

Another interesting scheme involves a British publisher who gave each symphony he published a letter. The one that stuck is Hob 88, which is called 'The Letter V'. So, really, you just are getting your toes wet. The reason I am partially insane is I have been doing this for the last 7 years. ::) :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on May 20, 2014, 01:13:51 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 20, 2014, 01:04:26 PM
Well, you are new to Haydn, so you hadn't got a good taste yet of how screwed up it all is. The fact that I try to sort things out as I go along in my blog is not because I like that sort of thing, particularly, it is because I need it sorted for myself! There are a dozen different numbering systems for Haydn's symphonies (especially), and it appears that yours has begun at the Paris Symphonies. The actual chronology of the Paris symphonies is this:

NC KEY HOB
84   A   87
85   Bb   85
86   g   83
87   Eb   84
88   D   86
89   C   82

so your symphony, Hob 87 in A, is actually #1 of the Paris works.

Another interesting scheme involves a British publisher who gave each symphony he published a letter. The one that stuck is Hob 88, which is called 'The Letter V'. So, really, you just are getting your toes wet. The reason I am partially insane is I have been doing this for the last 7 years. ::) :D

8)

Thanks! Really appreciated. I plan on taking a few more trips to the music store before they close for good and this will be good to know. The quality of printing is top-notch -- clearly a critical edition with notes in the front. Problem is, the notes are all in German. As long as I can initially sort all of this out, it won't bother me once I actually have them (and actually know what I have ::)).

There was also this very old-looking book over 800 pages about the Haydn symphonies. The price was written in at the top "$400" (as well as "used"), but I'm pretty sure that can't be right. It was literally falling apart. I doubt it was an antique, either, as it was up there with all of the other music textbooks. I meant to ask about it before I left, but I forgot. Hopefully it's still there next time I go (probably this weekend).

I'll be sure to check out your blog and a few other things before going next time.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 20, 2014, 01:22:15 PM

Quote from: EigenUser on May 20, 2014, 01:13:51 PM
Thanks! Really appreciated. I plan on taking a few more trips to the music store before they close for good and this will be good to know. The quality of printing is top-notch -- clearly a critical edition with notes in the front. Problem is, the notes are all in German. As long as I can initially sort all of this out, it won't bother me once I actually have them (and actually know what I have ::)).

There was also this very old-looking book over 800 pages about the Haydn symphonies. The price was written in at the top "$400" (as well as "used"), but I'm pretty sure that can't be right. It was literally falling apart. I doubt it was an antique, either, as it was up there with all of the other music textbooks. I meant to ask about it before I left, but I forgot. Hopefully it's still there next time I go (probably this weekend).

I'll be sure to check out your blog and a few other things before going next time.

The book is "Haydn's Symphonies" by H.C.Robbins-Landon. $400 is about right. It is the first definitive book on the subject and has yet to be surpassed, although there should have been an update a few years ago, but Landon went and died and there you go.

If that score is the one you had the cover pictured earlier where it is called "Joseph Haydn Werke", that is published by the Haydn Institute in Germany, and it is as you say, the critical edition for anyone who can read German. There is another entire edition published by Landon available on IMDB but it can't be downloaded in the US for copyright reasons. I have a few of them which a good friend downloaded and emailed to me. You might find some of those in your bookstore. They will be in English, and are the ones to have, they match up with any modern recording you will hear. Not that old crap though... 0:) >:D 0:) :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on May 20, 2014, 01:27:45 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 20, 2014, 01:22:15 PM
The book is "Haydn's Symphonies" by H.C.Robbins-Landon. $400 is about right. It is the first definitive book on the subject and has yet to be surpassed, although there should have been an update a few years ago, but Landon went and died and there you go.

If that score is the one you had the cover pictured earlier where it is called "Joseph Haydn Werke", that is published by the Haydn Institute in Germany, and it is as you say, the critical edition for anyone who can read German. There is another entire edition published by Landon available on IMDB but it can't be downloaded in the US for copyright reasons. I have a few of them which a good friend downloaded and emailed to me. You might find some of those in your bookstore. They will be in English, and are the ones to have, they match up with any modern recording you will hear. Not that old crap though... 0:) >:D 0:) :D

8)

Wow, I had no idea that there was a Haydn Institute. Sure enough, it says that on one of the first pages. And what a deal -- a hardcover for $14!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on May 21, 2014, 12:49:18 PM

I decided to go back to that music store on this coming Friday. They had a few more Haydn 'werke' hardcovers (may have been chamber music) and after you told me that this was legit stuff I've become paranoid that they'll be taken! I did hide a copy of an orchestration of Ravel's "Gaspard de la Nuit" (pushed it back so it wasn't visible ;D) with the intention of buying it next time I go, but I should have hid the Haydn (no pun intended :D).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2014, 01:05:35 PM

Quote from: EigenUser on May 21, 2014, 12:49:18 PM
I decided to go back to that music store on this coming Friday. They had a few more Haydn 'werke' hardcovers (may have been chamber music) and after you told me that this was legit stuff I've become paranoid that they'll be taken! I did hide a copy of an orchestration of Ravel's "Gaspard de la Nuit" (pushed it back so it wasn't visible ;D) with the intention of buying it next time I go, but I should have hid the Haydn (no pun intended :D).

Yes, the JHW (as they are called) books are, in some cases, the only source at all for particular works. Their goal is to publish everything, and they have been hard at it since ~1960, but there are still some things unpublished. You are lucky to have found a source, they are thin on the ground, and where I live, they are virtually nonexistent! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on May 21, 2014, 02:04:19 PM

A post in the Favorite symphonies poll thread mentioned a portrait of an unwigged Haydn. I've gone online looking for it, but not found it. does anyone have a link I'm curious to see what bald Papa looks like.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on May 21, 2014, 02:13:30 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 21, 2014, 02:04:19 PM
A post in the Favorite symphonies poll thread mentioned a portrait of an unwigged Haydn. I've gone online looking for it, but not found it. does anyone have a link I'm curious to see what bald Papa looks like.

Sexier. All men look sexier bald.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 21, 2014, 02:16:20 PM

Quote from: Ken B on May 21, 2014, 02:13:30 PM
Sexier. All men look sexier bald.

I should forgo the comb over then? ;)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on May 21, 2014, 02:35:53 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 21, 2014, 02:16:20 PM
I should forgo the comb over then? ;)

Sarge

or shave your head and no one will be be able to tell you've got a receding hairline.
(this applies to me as well).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on May 21, 2014, 02:37:34 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 21, 2014, 02:35:53 PM
or shave your head and no one will be be able to tell you've got a receding hairline.
(this applies to me as well).

Snort! That's just the way you guys can pretend to be bald!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on May 21, 2014, 02:51:04 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 21, 2014, 02:04:19 PM
A post in the Favorite symphonies poll thread mentioned a portrait of an unwigged Haydn. I've gone online looking for it, but not found it. does anyone have a link I'm curious to see what bald Papa looks like.

(http://www.ramp.pdx.edu/haydn/Files/pix/pruikls.GIF)

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 21, 2014, 02:35:53 PM
or shave your head and no one will be be able to tell you've got a receding hairline.
(this applies to me as well).

I burnt down my house to prevent it from burning down in the future! ;) ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 21, 2014, 02:55:32 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 21, 2014, 02:35:53 PM
or shave your head and no one will be be able to tell you've got a receding hairline.
(this applies to me as well).

That may work when one is a twentysomething, or thirty, forty...but at 60 I don't think it will fool anyone...not that a comb over fools anyone either, except one's self ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on May 21, 2014, 02:58:23 PM

Quote from: EigenUser on May 21, 2014, 02:51:04 PM
(http://www.ramp.pdx.edu/haydn/Files/pix/pruikls.GIF)
I burnt down my house to prevent it from burning down in the future! ;) ;D

Perhaps because it's in profile, but that does not actually look like the portraits I'm most familiar with. The nose seems too beaklike, for one thing.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on May 21, 2014, 03:03:18 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 21, 2014, 02:55:32 PM
That may work when one is a twentysomething, or thirty, forty...but at 60 I don't think it will fool anyone...not that a comb over fools anyone either, except one's self ;D

Sarge

Well, that's the only person you have to fool.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2014, 04:31:27 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on May 21, 2014, 02:58:23 PM
Perhaps because it's in profile, but that does not actually look like the portraits I'm most familiar with. The nose seems too beaklike, for one thing.

Yep, that's actually him though. If one of you lads hadn't turned it up, I was going to scan it out of one of my books. What a beauty! :blank:

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on May 22, 2014, 01:00:28 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 21, 2014, 02:16:20 PM
I should forgo the comb over then? ;)

Sarge

I found a picture of you, Sarge!
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_IXCvzWRw1xM/R6DNX9bX26I/AAAAAAAAAFQ/bBh22m0l4P4/s1600/boulezzzz.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 22, 2014, 02:57:47 AM

Quote from: North Star on May 22, 2014, 01:00:28 AM
I found a picture of you, Sarge!
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_IXCvzWRw1xM/R6DNX9bX26I/AAAAAAAAAFQ/bBh22m0l4P4/s1600/boulezzzz.jpg)

That's the future me...in 20 years ;D Right now I look more like this, with a beard not quite so unruly.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/may2014/segerstam.jpg)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on May 22, 2014, 03:53:40 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 22, 2014, 02:57:47 AM
That's the future me...in 20 years ;D Right now I look more like this, with a beard not quite so unruly.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/may2014/segerstam.jpg)

Sarge

Cool! :) Here I was envisioning a picture of Sergeant Rock with a comb over. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on May 22, 2014, 04:50:54 AM

So, it turns out that the "Joseph Haydn Werke" volume that I have is priced at 90 euros (around $150, I believe) by the publisher G. Henle Verlag. Furthermore, I couldn't find out where to purchase it online (all it said was "visit your local music store"). I paid $14.

I had no idea when I bought it! I just got it because I've been interested in Haydn recently, it looked important, and it was cheap.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 22, 2014, 05:12:52 AM

Quote from: EigenUser on May 22, 2014, 04:50:54 AM
So, it turns out that the "Joseph Haydn Werke" volume that I have is priced at 90 euros (around $150, I believe) by the publisher G. Henle Verlag. Furthermore, I couldn't find out where to purchase it online (all it said was "visit your local music store"). I paid $14.

I had no idea when I bought it! I just got it because I've been interested in Haydn recently, it looked important, and it was cheap.

Sometimes you just get lucky. :) When I was shopping for "Chronicle & Works" which has been out of print for a long time, I was finding prices that ran from $150 to $800/volume! So I was looking at a Marketplace ad for Volume 1 (of 5) which I had been interested in more than the others. It was $500! But as I got to the end of the ad, it had one of those little "more..." things you click on, so I did. Lo and behold, the last sentence said 'price is for the entire 5 volume set'!! Needless to say, I didn't waste a lot of time with self-recrimination, the fact my birthday was the next week was sufficient justification. The box was actually delivered on my birthday! 0:)

Sometimes you just get lucky. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 24, 2014, 05:51:37 PM

Well, this has certainly taken a while, I hope you guys haven't forgotten me! But it was a productive week, I managed to discover an interesting thing or two about the symphonies of 1773, and I hope you will find them so, too. If you will, have a look. As always, delighted to discuss either the works, the essay, or anything else Haydn! :)

Goodbye S&D, hello Broadway! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/05/1773-the-music-part-1-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on May 25, 2014, 09:47:24 AM

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2000/may00/HaydnZigZag.jpg)

It's very familiar music,nothing more familiar in fact, but Hadjimarkos is good and imaginative and I think this is well worth checking out. I got to know her through some outstanding Schubert, and I just noticed she's recorded some CPEB "character pieces"

Either the performance or the instrument or both makes the music more deep emotionally and more dramatic to me.

She's very imaginative in using rhythmic rubato, always very naturally, and that really increases the music's eloquence. I like it, but I just wonder, as a question of history, just how appropriate that is for music of this period, especially on an instrument where you can accentuate using dynamics, and where (I think) the performer can effect timbre and "attack" and volume. Anyway I don't suppose it matters, anyone who listens to harpsichord will appreciate her rubato I think. I would be surprised to hear someone playing like her on a piano.

It also raises questions about the emotional content of the music, which I remember discussing here with respect to Beghin's perfrmance of the F minor variations. Beghin's way bumpier than Hadjimarkos (at least in Hob16/20 - he uses a clavichord for that one too), totally different styles. Surely they can't both be HIP -- or can they? Beghin's way of playing is much less familiar sounding to me -- less like baroque harpsichord performances.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 25, 2014, 10:47:26 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on May 25, 2014, 09:47:24 AM
(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2000/may00/HaydnZigZag.jpg)

It's very familiar music,nothing more familiar in fact, but Hadjimarkos is good and imaginative and I think this is well worth checking out. I got to know her through some outstanding Schubert, and I just noticed she's recorded some CPEB "character pieces"

Either the performance or the instrument or both makes the music more deep emotionally and more dramatic to me.

She's very imaginative in using rhythmic rubato, always very naturally, and that really increases the music's eloquence. I like it, but I just wonder, as a question of history, just how appropriate that is for music of this period, especially on an instrument where you can accentuate using dynamics, and where (I think) the performer can effect timbre and "attack" and volume. Anyway I don't suppose it matters, anyone who listens to harpsichord will appreciate her rubato I think. I would be surprised to hear someone playing like her on a piano.

It also raises questions about the emotional content of the music, which I remember discussing here with respect to Beghin's performance of the F minor variations. Beghin's way bumpier than Hadjimarkos (at least in Hob16/20 - he uses a clavichord for that one too), totally different styles. Surely they can't both be HIP -- or can they? Beghin's way of playing is much less familiar sounding to me -- less like baroque harpsichord performances.

Oh, I really like that disk! It was my first purely clavichord disk, and made a nice impression on me. The player of a clavichord seems able to affect the sound to a far greater degree than on any other instrument I've heard.

[asin]B000EQHTBS[/asin]

Beghin plays the f minor variations on a 1791 (copy) fortepiano, so not a lot of matching up can be done there. I find his style on all of the keyboard instruments to be less legato than virtually anyone else (except Semmerjian playing Mozart on fortepiano, cut from the same mold). By the end of the century, staccato playing had given way to legato as the generation which learned to play on harpsichord, like Mozart, began to die off. I think the clavichord is less staccato than the harpsichord, but it lends itself to rubato more, and a good player will take advantage of it to help add some individuality to the piece. Mozart himself did it (IIRC, he wrote "but you can only do it (steal time, he called it) with your right hand, your left hand must be steady"). Hadjimarkos does it very well.

FYI - She plays the fortepiano in this disk, and is more legato, although I don't know if it the instrument she is playing or else the need to do that because she is accompanying a singer. This is a nice disk, too.

[asin]B004JWWSUA[/asin]

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 26, 2014, 06:50:45 AM

Been a little while since we talked about new CD's. I have gotten a modest number lately, mostly based on recommendations from fellow Haydnistos. Here they are:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSymphonies1828amp52ApolloEnsemblecover_zps70e84677.jpg)

The final disk of the Hsu series. Like the other three, they are very nicely done. You just don't hear anything about the Apollo Ensemble, not in the US anyway, and not even by the people you would expect to know about them. They can play very well though, in the same vein as L'Estro Armonico, to my ears.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSalomonSymphoniesvol2_zps041919f6.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSalomonSymphoniesvol1_zps429d3a88.jpg)

A couple of weeks ago Torut posted a chamber ensemble version of a London symphony. In the ensuing discussion Sarge pointed out these two disks, which I snapped up at a bargain price (right place, right time!). As is often the case, Sarge was right on. The particular combination of instruments which Salomon specified makes for the most nicely balanced ensemble you can think of. I think I have a use for these down the road. :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnHarnoncourtTheSeasonscover_zps7e263376.jpg)

No recommendation on this one, I just really like their 'Creation' and thought I would have a go at their 'Seasons'. One of the reviews called it "willful"; how could I refuse? :D

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn7LastWordsKeyboardImmerseelcover_zpsd2e2017d.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn7LastWordsTumacover_zpsfa0148a5.jpg)

In a long ago discussion with El Gordo, and a more recent one with Pat B., the subject of Tuma came up in this work. I have been a long time getting around to it but finally have it on my player as I write this. Very nice! The Immerseel was brought to my attention by Pat B. as well and I found it just sitting there waiting for me. I like Immerseel's style in everything I have heard from him, and he doesn't disappoint here.

I am at the point with my collection that finding new CD's of PI performances pretty much has to wait for the occasional release, but rec's from kindred spirits and the occasional bit of luck can pay off too! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: torut on May 26, 2014, 10:34:18 AM

That Arco Baleno disc is really refreshing. I purchased the disc of Symphonies No. 94/98/100 and love it so much. I am going to get the other one.
The recordings of the Salomon's arrangements and string trios are one of the best recent discoveries for me regarding Haydn's music.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on May 26, 2014, 12:22:11 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 26, 2014, 06:50:45 AM
In a long ago discussion with El Gordo, and a more recent one with Pat B., the subject of Tuma came up in this work. I have been a long time getting around to it but finally have it on my player as I write this. Very nice! The Immerseel was brought to my attention by Pat B. as well and I found it just sitting there waiting for me. I like Immerseel's style in everything I have heard from him, and he doesn't disappoint here.

Whew! Glad you enjoyed the Immerseel. I was a bit nervous to have instigated your purchase since I hadn't actually heard it (aside from samples).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 26, 2014, 01:11:53 PM

Quote from: Pat B on May 26, 2014, 12:22:11 PM
Whew! Glad you enjoyed the Immerseel. I was a bit nervous to have instigated your purchase since I hadn't actually heard it (aside from samples).

:) Actually, I benefit most from knowing something I am interested in actually exists. Liking or not liking is such a personal decision, I feel badly when someone hates one of my recs, but I sleep well anyway. :D I liked both of those; IIRC you were trying to decide. Either way is a winner, I think. ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 26, 2014, 01:13:00 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 24, 2014, 05:51:37 PM
Well, this has certainly taken a while, I hope you guys haven't forgotten me! But it was a productive week, I managed to discover an interesting thing or two about the symphonies of 1773, and I hope you will find them so, too. If you will, have a look. As always, delighted to discuss either the works, the essay, or anything else Haydn! :)

Goodbye S&D, hello Broadway! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/05/1773-the-music-part-1-.html)

Thanks,
8)

I'll bounce it up since many of the symphonically inclined have been on holiday. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on May 26, 2014, 03:42:13 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 26, 2014, 06:50:45 AM
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn7LastWordsKeyboardImmerseelcover_zpsd2e2017d.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn7LastWordsTumacover_zpsfa0148a5.jpg)

I guess Lubimov is the next goal:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51rGRfNPU-L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

http://www.youtube.com/v/gKci9AKHUsU

I love how Haydn writes "Grave e Cantabile" and Lubimov exactly plays this way. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 26, 2014, 03:46:56 PM

Quote from: Gordo on May 26, 2014, 03:42:13 PM
I guess Lubimov is the next goal:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51rGRfNPU-L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

http://www.youtube.com/v/gKci9AKHUsU

I love how Haydn writes "Grave e Cantabile" and Lubimov exactly plays this way. :)

Ah, it's to be released tomorrow! No wonder I can scarcely keep up! I have some Beethoven, Schubert and Mozart by Lubimov and am always pleased with his efforts, so this one is already in the basket, awaiting circumstances. I would be richer yet poorer without your fine efforts, mi amigo. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 26, 2014, 03:55:43 PM

Quote from: Gordo on May 26, 2014, 03:42:13 PM
I guess Lubimov is the next goal:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51rGRfNPU-L._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

I love how Haydn writes "Grave e Cantabile" and Lubimov exactly plays this way. :)

That is the most full-sounding Tangentenflügel I've ever heard! Interesting sounding instrument, I hope the liner notes discuss it a bit.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on May 26, 2014, 03:59:41 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 25, 2014, 10:47:26 AM

[asin]B004JWWSUA[/asin]

Is Mrs. Kirby at her usual (charming) level here, Gurn? I mean I have read her voice sounds a bit tired in her last recordings. Did you have this impression here? Obviously, it's a very enticing disk.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 26, 2014, 04:07:17 PM

Quote from: Gordo on May 26, 2014, 03:59:41 PM
Is Mrs. Kirby at her usual (charming) level here, Gurn? I mean I have read her voice sounds a bit tired in her last recordings. Did you have this impression here? Obviously, it's a very enticing disk.

Gordo,
I am no expert on voices, the only thing I've heard about it conceptually is a tendency to 'vibrato' when it wasn't intended to be, and perhaps a lack of range or power. If those are the telling signs, I must say that here she is as rock-steady as every, and since these songs and canzonettas don't require the range of, say, Mozart's c minor mass, one can't use that criterion usefully. I have a whole lot of versions of these songs by a wide range of vocal stylists, and she more than holds her own here. Hadjimarkos is a fine accompanist, too.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on May 26, 2014, 04:07:43 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 26, 2014, 03:55:43 PM
That is the most full-sounding Tangentenflügel I've ever heard! Interesting sounding instrument, I hope the liner notes discuss it a bit.

8)

Yes! It seems very interesting.

Another tangent piano I loved was that one played by Schooderwoerd in his recently released set of Mozart's clavier sonatas.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on May 26, 2014, 04:15:02 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 26, 2014, 04:07:17 PM
Gordo,
I am no expert on voices, the only thing I've heard about it conceptually is a tendency to 'vibrato' when it wasn't intended to be, and perhaps a lack of range or power. If those are the telling signs, I must say that here she is as rock-steady as every, and since these songs and canzonettas don't require the range of, say, Mozart's c minor mass, one can't use that criterion usefully. I have a whole lot of versions of these songs by a wide range of vocal stylists, and she more than holds her own here. Hadjimarkos is a fine accompanist, too.

8)

Great! I was principally thinking of vibrato.

It would be a disappointment in her lovely white voice.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 26, 2014, 04:50:04 PM

Quote from: Gordo on May 26, 2014, 04:07:43 PM
Yes! It seems very interesting.

Another tangent piano I loved was that one played by Schoonderwoerd in his recently released set of Mozart's clavier sonatas.

I still haven't acquired that one yet, I move more slowly on Mozart than on Haydn (since I know they will be round for a while!). I will though. Actually, I rather enjoy my Lubimov set there. :)

Quote from: Gordo on May 26, 2014, 04:15:02 PM
Great! I was principally thinking of vibrato.

It would be a disappointment in her lovely white voice.

Yes it would, although no one can sing at the highest level forever; the instrument will simply wear out in time. I am thankful for recordings which captured her in her prime. She and Ameling were stunningly good, and at nearly the same time! I can say that, I suppose, because they worked in my preferred repertoire, at least some of the time. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 28, 2014, 02:46:54 PM

For those of you who are interested, the latest status of the Fey series:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/FeyHaydn5_14_zpse7d4a93a.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 28, 2014, 03:49:06 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 28, 2014, 02:46:54 PM
For those of you who are interested, the latest status of the Fey series:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/FeyHaydn5_14_zpse7d4a93a.jpg)

8)

98! Finally!!
My favorite from the Londons. Now he needs to make 80 and I'll be content.
Thanks for the chart, Gurn!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 28, 2014, 03:50:54 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 28, 2014, 03:49:06 PM
98! Finally!!
My favorite from the Londons. Now he needs to make 80 and I'll be content.
Thanks for the chart, Gurn!

...ok, add 6, 63, 67, 68, 77 and 81, then I'll be content...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 28, 2014, 03:59:52 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 28, 2014, 03:50:54 PM
...ok, add 6, 63, 67, 68, 77 and 81, then I'll be content...

:D You're welcome, Greg.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 28, 2014, 05:39:28 PM

And to break away from symphonies for a bit, I've been looking at (and listening to) the first works which were ever 'officially' published by Haydn, the set of 6 sonatas for keyboard of 1773. Have a look, I think they are pretty interesting. :)

Making a splash in public (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/05/1773-the-music-part-2-.html)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardHirschcover_zps95c09c1d.jpg)

Thanks for reading,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 29, 2014, 03:36:37 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 28, 2014, 02:46:54 PM
For those of you who are interested, the latest status of the Fey series:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/FeyHaydn5_14_zpse7d4a93a.jpg)

8)

Cool. Where did you find it?

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 29, 2014, 03:45:33 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 28, 2014, 03:49:06 PM
Now he needs to make 80 and I'll be content.

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on May 28, 2014, 03:50:54 PM
...ok, add 6, 63, 67, 68, 77 and 81, then I'll be content...

I'm hoping that 77, 78 "The Stumbling Goat" and 80 will make it onto a single disc sooner rather than later. But there are so many missing between 1 and 38 we'll probably see a volume or two with these earlier symphonies first. Or maybe he'll plug the two holes left in the Paris/Chunnel/London spread first: 91 and 101.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on May 29, 2014, 03:54:14 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 28, 2014, 02:46:54 PM
For those of you who are interested, the latest status of the Fey series:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/FeyHaydn5_14_zpse7d4a93a.jpg)

8)

Oh, cool!!! A Hobbit Bingo card!! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 29, 2014, 04:09:19 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 29, 2014, 03:36:37 AM
Cool. Where did you find it?

Sarge

A guy I know on another list put it together from info on the Hänssler site. If I was collecting these I would have liked it, so I figured you guys would too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on May 29, 2014, 04:14:53 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 29, 2014, 03:45:33 AM
78 "The Stumbling Goat"
Sarge

Is this the real nickname for Symphony NO. 78? Or yours? :o :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 29, 2014, 04:16:26 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on May 29, 2014, 04:14:53 AM
Is this the real nickname for Symphony NO. 78? Or yours? :o :)

Sara (Lethe) coined it. She thought the first movement's first theme sounded like it... ;D 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 29, 2014, 04:17:22 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 29, 2014, 04:09:19 AM
A guy I know on another list put it together from info on the Hänssler site. If I was collecting these I would have liked it, so I figured you guys would too. :)

And I do. Thanks.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on May 29, 2014, 04:17:43 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 29, 2014, 04:16:26 AM
Sara (Lethe) coined it. She thought the first movement's first theme sound like it... ;D 8)

Sarge

Cool! Now I'll have to go back and listen to it! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 29, 2014, 04:29:08 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on May 29, 2014, 04:17:43 AM
Cool! Now I'll have to go back and listen to it! ;D

I don't need any particular reason.... 0:)

8)

Oh, Ray, did you happen across my essay on #51? Curious if it agrees with your assessment. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on May 29, 2014, 04:40:46 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 29, 2014, 04:29:08 AM
Oh, Ray, did you happen across my essay on #51? Curious if it agrees with your assessment. :)

Oh shoot, I haven't yet! Definitely will check it out. Love that # 51. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on May 29, 2014, 05:44:19 PM

So, what's the deal with the 2nd movement of 79? The presto section caught me off guard -- made me giggle. Is there a story behind this? I couldn't find anything too specific on Wikipedia.

Ohhh, this is so strange. I'm listening to Stockhausen while posting in the Haus ??? ??? ??? :blank: :blank: :blank:. I always imagine joining all you guys in a fancy parlor from the 1700s whenever I post here. This is just awkward :-[.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 29, 2014, 05:57:38 PM

Quote from: EigenUser on May 29, 2014, 05:44:19 PM
So, what's the deal with the 2nd movement of 79? The presto section caught me off guard -- made me giggle. Is there a story behind this? I couldn't find anything too specific on Wikipedia.

Ohhh, this is so strange. I'm listening to Stockhausen while posting in the Haus ??? ??? ??? :blank: :blank: :blank:. I always imagine joining all you guys in a fancy parlor from the 1700s whenever I post here. This is just awkward :-[.

:D Yes, Joe will do that to you when you least expect it. It is hard to tell exactly what he had in mind there, either he just felt like throwing in a little gypsy music for the hell of it, or (as Landon describes it) it is what is called a Kehraus, which is a little bit of a tune that a dance band plays at the end of the night and it's time to go home. In fact, it is loosely translated as 'go home' music. Now, why he would toss that in there is something you'll have to ask him when you see him. He is just that kind of guy. :D

Don't worry, we are quite unbuttoned here. I even have my shoes off.... 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on May 30, 2014, 02:56:36 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 29, 2014, 05:57:38 PM
:D Yes, Joe will do that to you when you least expect it. It is hard to tell exactly what he had in mind there, either he just felt like throwing in a little gypsy music for the hell of it, or (as Landon describes it) it is what is called a Kehraus, which is a little bit of a tune that a dance band plays at the end of the night and it's time to go home. In fact, it is loosely translated as 'go home' music. Now, why he would toss that in there is something you'll have to ask him when you see him. He is just that kind of guy. :D

Don't worry, we are quite unbuttoned here. I even have my shoes off.... 0:)

8)

...but I don't want to go home! The symphony is just half over!!!! ???

Thanks, though. That's interesting.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on May 30, 2014, 05:46:59 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 29, 2014, 04:29:08 AM

Oh, Ray, did you happen across my essay on #51? Curious if it agrees with your assessment. :)

Darn it. I am looking for this right now, but I must be blind. (well, my avatar is blind). :D Help me out, please, Gurn? :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 30, 2014, 05:52:57 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on May 30, 2014, 05:46:59 AM
Darn it. I am looking for this right now, but I must be blind. (well, my avatar is blind). :D Help me out, please, Gurn? :)

http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/05/1773-the-music-part-1-.html

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 30, 2014, 05:54:57 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on May 30, 2014, 05:46:59 AM
Darn it. I am looking for this right now, but I must be blind. (well, my avatar is blind). :D Help me out, please, Gurn? :)

http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/05/1773-the-music-part-1-.html

Although the link in my footer takes you there too, to the newer one and then you just go back one from there. Either way... :)

Hope you enjoy it, amigo, and hey, how 'bout them Rangers!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on May 30, 2014, 05:56:33 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 30, 2014, 05:52:57 AM
http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/05/1773-the-music-part-1-.html

Sarge

Thank you so much, Sarge! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on May 30, 2014, 06:03:08 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 29, 2014, 04:29:08 AM
Oh, Ray, did you happen across my essay on #51? Curious if it agrees with your assessment. :)

Most definitely, Gurn. Many reasons that make this Symphony, No. 51 so unique, are the dynamically written parts for the horns (high notes) and (low notes). And the two trios in the Menuetto.

And I agree, that attention seems to get paid more to his symphonies with 'nicknames', which is unfortunate. I am as guilty as anyone for this. Symphony No. 51, though, really stands out. Although all of Haydn's symphonies are unique, this one is uber unique! :D

Thanks Gurn, I enjoyed reading your impressions on that.

Oh, and such an achingly beautiful II. Adagio. Just one of the reasons why I voted for No. 51 on the Favourite 15 poll. Heck, it would likely make my Favourite 5. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 30, 2014, 06:21:54 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on May 30, 2014, 06:03:08 AM
Most definitely, Gurn. Many reasons that make this Symphony, No. 51 so unique, are the dynamically written parts for the horns (high notes) and (low notes). And the two trios in the Menuetto.

And I agree, that attention seems to get paid more to his symphonies with 'nicknames', which is unfortunate. I am as guilty as anyone for this. Symphony No. 51, though, really stands out. Although all of Haydn's symphonies are unique, this one is uber unique! :D

Thanks Gurn, I enjoyed reading your impressions on that.

Oh, and such an achingly beautiful II. Adagio. Just one of the reasons why I voted for No. 51 on the Favourite 15 poll. Heck, it would likely make my Favourite 5. :)

Glad you enjoyed it, Ray. I have to tell you, going through the symphonies this way and researching each one as I go along, I have heard new things and rethought so many things I figured I knew; the wonders of his imagination never fail to impress. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 30, 2014, 12:25:16 PM

I've been looking to buy this CD for 3 or 4 years now but it was never available. I finally found a copy the other day and it is on the way to me now, I'm curious if anyone has this disk, I've never seen it mentioned in this list, or any other for that matter. I'm a real fan of Haselböck and company. :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnSym307394Haselboumlckcover_zpsbc20eb58.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on May 30, 2014, 08:44:06 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 30, 2014, 12:25:16 PM
I've been looking to buy this CD for 3 or 4 years now but it was never available. I finally found a copy the other day and it is on the way to me now, I'm curious if anyone has this disk, I've never seen it mentioned in this list, or any other for that matter. I'm a real fan of Haselböck and company. :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/HaydnSym307394Haselboumlckcover_zpsbc20eb58.jpg)

8)

It looks great, Gurn!

I didn't even know its existence, but knowing what Haselböck and Co. did with the "Tageszeiten" symphonies, it seems totally promising. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: amw on May 30, 2014, 09:04:54 PM

I've been listening to this quite a bit lately; as far as MI Haydn is concerned, it's superb.

(http://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/29/18/0761203921829_600.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 31, 2014, 04:13:58 AM

Quote from: amw on May 30, 2014, 09:04:54 PM
I've been listening to this quite a bit lately; as far as MI Haydn is concerned, it's superb.

(http://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/29/18/0761203921829_600.jpg)

I completely agree. I think Nomos did a great job with my favorite opus. I have never seen any other recording by them, I'm curious if this was their only venture. Suppose I out to Google them... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 31, 2014, 04:17:43 AM

Quote from: Gordo on May 30, 2014, 08:44:06 PM
It looks great, Gurn!

I didn't even know its existence, but knowing what Haselböck and Co. did with the "Tageszeiten" symphonies, it seems totally promising. :)

I'll certainly let you know about it, Gordo. I saw it at Amazon quite some time ago, but it was always unavailable. Novalis is a very hard label to find over here, I got Haselböck's 'Organ Masses' disk from a vendor in Prague who sells on the Marketplace. He also advertised this one, but when I ordered it, the order came back as 'oh, well we don't really have it...'. I have high hopes too, based also on their 'Times of Day' disk (and also that 'Organ Masses' disk). :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: amw on May 31, 2014, 04:30:28 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 31, 2014, 04:13:58 AM
I completely agree. I think Nomos did a great job with my favorite opus. I have never seen any other recording by them, I'm curious if this was their only venture. Suppose I out to Google them... :-\

I found out about them through (surprise surprise) their Schubert D956... apart from that, some Boccherini and Haydn Op 50, they seem to have focused more on modern music. And have surprisingly few CDs out for an ensemble that's been in existence for three decades. (According to their website, they were recording about one cd a year from 1990 to 1999, then didn't release anything until 2012.)

They do evidently play plenty of Haydn, Mozart & Beethoven (along with Kurtág and Schnittke and Hölszky and so forth) to judge by their concert programmes, but without a field trip to Hannover we can't hear any of it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 31, 2014, 04:34:27 AM

Quote from: amw on May 31, 2014, 04:30:28 AM
I found out about them through (surprise surprise) their Schubert D956... apart from that, some Boccherini and Haydn Op 50, they seem to have focused more on modern music. And have surprisingly few CDs out for an ensemble that's been in existence for three decades.

They do evidently play plenty of Haydn, Mozart & Beethoven (along with Kurtág and Schnittke and Hölszky and so forth) to judge by their concert programmes, but without a field trip to Hannover we can't hear any of it.

Thanks for the info. It isn't surprising I haven't heard their Schnitttke, for example, but to never have seen their Schubert, Beethoven or Boccherini recordings is inexplicable... :-\ I'll have to find their Schubert Quintet, if they have the same sort of performance approach it should be very interesting. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: amw on May 31, 2014, 04:44:37 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 31, 2014, 04:34:27 AM
Thanks for the info. It isn't surprising I haven't heard their Schnitttke, for example, but to never have seen their Schubert, Beethoven or Boccherini recordings is inexplicable... :-\ I'll have to find their Schubert Quintet, if they have the same sort of performance approach it should be very interesting. :)

Should clarify—they have never actually committed any Schnittke or Mozart or etc to record—though they evidently play quite a bit of it: http://www.nomos-quartett.de/de/termine/

The discography itself is fairly thin on the ground (http://www.nomos-quartett.de/de/diskografie/). I wonder if NDR broadcasts their concerts though.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on May 31, 2014, 06:55:51 AM

I will be listening to (re-visiting) the following 5 symphonies today:

#51 in B flat - one of my faves
#78 in C minor "The Stumbling Goat". I just have to. :D
#63 in C major "La Roxelane" - currently my outright favourite.
#79 in F major (curious to revisit that Presto in the Adagio II mvt.)

#30 in C major "Alleluja" - the one symphony I could not connect with in any way (out of 106/107 symphonies, that is miraculous!)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 31, 2014, 07:24:14 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on May 31, 2014, 06:55:51 AM
I will be listening to (re-visiting) the following 5 symphonies today:

#51 in B flat - one of my faves
#78 in C minor "The Stumbling Goat". I just have to. :D
#63 in C major "La Roxelane" - currently my outright favourite.
#79 in F major (curious to revisit that Presto in the Adagio II mvt.)

#30 in C major "Alleluja" - the one symphony I could not connect with in any way (out of 106/107 symphonies, that is miraculous!)

Great list, Ray. I think if you listen to #30 from time to time it will suddenly open up for you why a lot of people call it a favorite. I'm looking forward to the new version I have in transit (see post above). Not as though I don't already have several fine ones... ::) :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on May 31, 2014, 06:46:16 PM

I love this recording from Rosamunde Quartett of Haydn's Seven Last Words. They utilize very little to no vibrato, and create an airy, serene atmosphere with their beautiful phrasing. It's a good companion to the Mosaiques who I find similar in their approach to the music.
Seven is a piece I frequent often, and the mood I'm in determines the version I spin, tonight I'm feeling very relaxed and prefer a simplistic evening, so naturally I go with four players rather than full orchestra of choir. ;)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41l%2BYtHMwOL._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 01, 2014, 09:00:37 AM

Oh boy, everybody's favorite; opera! C'mon, guys, this is some good stuff! Check it and see, then we'll talk. :)

The most popular opera (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/06/1773-the-music-part-3-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: torut on June 01, 2014, 10:14:12 AM

I listened to Symphony No. 51 by The Academy of Ancient Music, conducted by Christopher Hogwood, and No. 50 by L'Estro Armonico, conducted by Derek Solomons, on this youtube channel.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFtmJN8wzcuSWzXIMDXjq0g (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFtmJN8wzcuSWzXIMDXjq0g)
(So far, Symphonies No. 1 - 60 by Hogwood and Solomons have been posted.)
I have Adám Fischer's set but I was interested in Hogwood. It's very nice and I like Solomons' performance too, which is vivid and lively.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 01, 2014, 10:43:14 AM

Quote from: torut on June 01, 2014, 10:14:12 AM
I listened to Symphony No. 51 by The Academy of Ancient Music, conducted by Christopher Hogwood, and No. 50 by L'Estro Armonico, conducted by Derek Solomons, on this youtube channel.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFtmJN8wzcuSWzXIMDXjq0g (https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCFtmJN8wzcuSWzXIMDXjq0g)
(So far, Symphonies No. 1 - 60 by Hogwood and Solomons have been posted.)
I have Adám Fischer's set but I was interested in Hogwood. It's very nice and I like Solomons' performance too, which is vivid and lively.

Yes, Solomons and Hogwood are both great examples of "what could have been...". Hogwood got much closer to completion, but Solomons got a big chunk done too, and I am really keen on the style of those recordings. Sony's disinterest in re-releasing them once they got the rights is inexplicable. ::)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on June 01, 2014, 06:54:10 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 01, 2014, 09:00:37 AM
Oh boy, everybody's favorite; opera! C'mon, guys, this is some good stuff! Check it and see, then we'll talk. :)

The most popular opera (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/06/1773-the-music-part-3-.html)

Thanks,
8)

I have to admit I understand the Opera even less now that I know what the plot is. Well eventually I will get around to hearing it..I have a huge listening pile for Opera that includes three Wagner Rings and the Dorati Hadyn box.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 02, 2014, 04:19:39 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 01, 2014, 06:54:10 PM
I have to admit I understand the Opera even less now that I know what the plot is. Well eventually I will get around to hearing it..I have a huge listening pile for Opera that includes three Wagner Rings and the Dorati Haydn box.

:D I don't think you are supposed to be able to understand the plot, that's one of the beauties of the genre. Wow, 3 'Ring...'(s)? Man, you'll be 100 years old! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on June 03, 2014, 07:11:00 PM

Just purchased scores to symphonies 34, 35, 36, 38, and 65 (the last included a free set of parts!).

I have another burning Haydn question that Gurn likely knows the answer to. I am aware that the nicknames didn't generally come from Haydn. Did any of them?

Of course, we can immediately discount Sarge's names (who is now making replacement CD cover art for the symphonies ;D ;) :laugh: ).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on June 04, 2014, 03:49:42 AM

Quote from: EigenUser on June 03, 2014, 07:11:00 PM

Of course, we can immediately discount Sarge's names (who is now making replacement CD cover art for the symphonies ;D ;) :laugh: ).

I love the cat cover art! :D Now we need one for 'The Stumbling Goat'. :laugh:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 04, 2014, 04:04:22 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on June 04, 2014, 03:49:42 AM
I love the cat cover art! :D Now we need one for 'The Stumbling Goat'. :laugh:

There's a pasture just a short distance from my house that is home to a goat family. I'll have Mrs. Rock trip one while I snap a pic.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on June 04, 2014, 04:11:39 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 04, 2014, 04:04:22 AM
There's a pasture just a short distance from my house that is home to a goat family. I'll have Mrs. Rock trip one while I snap a pic.

Sarge

;D Or hand the goat a few glasses of wine. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 04, 2014, 04:18:57 AM

Quote from: EigenUser on June 03, 2014, 07:11:00 PM
Just purchased scores to symphonies 34, 35, 36, 38, and 65 (the last included a free set of parts!).

I have another burning Haydn question that Gurn likely knows the answer to. I am aware that the nicknames didn't generally come from Haydn. Did any of them?

Of course, we can immediately discount Sarge's names (who is now making replacement CD cover art for the symphonies ;D ;) :laugh: ).

Oh, Happy Birthday to you, EU. :)

There are very, very few which he did name. Excuse if I miss one, but I think they are like;

6 Morning
7 Noon
8 Night
64 Tempora mutantur (Times change) (although, see here (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/05/1773-the-music-part-1-.html) for discussion of that. It may not even be a name!)

I'm hard-pressed to come up with another OTTOMH, although there probably is one. It was thought that #69, 'Laudon' was named by Haydn, but actually it was his publisher, Artaria who used it to boost sales. Anyone else think of one? ???

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on June 04, 2014, 06:39:20 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 04, 2014, 04:18:57 AM
Oh, Happy Birthday to you, EU. :)

There are very, very few which he did name. Excuse if I miss one, but I think they are like;

6 Morning
7 Noon
8 Night
64 Tempora mutantur (Times change) (although, see here (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/05/1773-the-music-part-1-.html) for discussion of that. It may not even be a name!)

I'm hard-pressed to come up with another OTTOMH, although there probably is one. It was thought that #69, 'Laudon' was named by Haydn, but actually it was his publisher, Artaria who used it to boost sales. Anyone else think of one? ???

8)

Thanks! I forgot about 6, 7, and 8, but I didn't know about 64. Were any of the names contrived during his lifetime? If so, did he approve? I know that some composers don't like the idea of putting music to an extramusical "program". Schoenberg, for instance, was asked by his publisher to give names to each of his "Five Pieces for Orchestra". He did so, but only hesitantly.

Listening to 87 now ("The Hen"). I like it a lot overall, but I officially dislike the slow movement because parts of it remind me of Pachelbel's "Canon". Of course, Haydn would have no way of knowing this piece since it wasn't discovered until the 1900s (which is hard to imagine now, considering how often we hear it).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 04, 2014, 06:50:20 AM

Quote from: EigenUser on June 04, 2014, 06:39:20 AM
Thanks! I forgot about 6, 7, and 8, but I didn't know about 64. Were any of the names contrived during his lifetime? If so, did he approve? I know that some composers don't like the idea of putting music to an extramusical "program". Schoenberg, for instance, was asked by his publisher to give names to each of his "Five Pieces for Orchestra". He did so, but only hesitantly.

Listening to 87 now ("The Hen"). I like it a lot overall, but I officially dislike the slow movement because parts of it remind me of Pachelbel's "Canon". Of course, Haydn would have no way of knowing this piece since it wasn't discovered until the 1900s (which is hard to imagine now, considering how often we hear it).

The #69 'Laudon' name was, Artaria didn't actually put it on the symphony, but on the piano reduction he made of it. AFAIK, this was the only piano reduction he actually did himself. So he must have known that one, and approved as soon as he found out about improving the sales. :)

The rest of them, I really think they were given in the early 19th century, and most of that in England, since the English were wild about such things. German names are more prosaic, ones I have seen are based more on musical structure than perceived Romantic delusions. As an example, the second quartet of Op 76 was called by the Germans 'Quintens' or 'Fifths' because the opening theme is based on a series of falling fifths. Symphony #94 is called 'Surprise' by the English, but Mit dem Paukenschlag (With the Drumbeat) by the Germans. Haydn thought more like a German, so all the cool names are not from him, as a rule of thumb. :)

One where German and English are the same though is 103, which is called 'Drumroll' in English and Mit dem Paukenwirbl (With the Drumroll) in German. Hard to think of another like that, although I suppose there are other examples.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 04, 2014, 06:55:03 AM

Love that word, Paukenwirbl.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 04, 2014, 06:56:44 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 04, 2014, 06:55:03 AM
Love that word, Paukenwirbl.

Me too. German has a great vocabulary!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 04, 2014, 09:37:41 AM

Pardon if this is “old news,” but look what is being released day after tomorrow:

[asin]B009LNI0T0[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 04, 2014, 10:05:20 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 04, 2014, 09:37:41 AM
Pardon if this is "old news," but look what is being released day after tomorrow:

[asin]B009LNI0T0[/asin]

No, new news, at least on this side of the ocean. But $180!! :o Who are they kidding? It won't sell, then they'll be pissed and complain about people not spending money... ::) Oh well, it won't last for long. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 04, 2014, 06:17:39 PM

New to me, just arrived, spinning the second for a first listen (for all you guys who miss Coop! :D ):

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSymphonies101amp102Haselboumlck_zpse44b5ec9.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSymphonies030073amp094Haselboumlck_zps94630803.jpg)

I posted the second one the other day to see if anyone was familiar with, but apparently not. Well, I will also be surprised if anyone is familiar with the other one either!

Wiener Akademie is a super band, they have their own sound, can't describe it but you know it when you hear it. Sort of how M used to say about idiomatic playing by orchestras. In the disk of the two London symphonies, they use a band of 35 players, which is plenty big enough. Playing is great, tempi are just how I like them. This may not be how they were played by the Opera Orchestra at their premiére, however, when he got back to Vienna with them and was finally a hero in his own town, these works were played constantly by Viennese orchestras and this is what they could have sounded like.

The one with the two earlier works on it, the notes don't say how large the ensemble is, but it is noticeably smaller, perhaps 20 players, which would have been the orchestra he was writing for. Very nice playing here, too!

I don't know if you will have an opportunity to get these disks, I just kept after it for 2-3 years until I found them, both at once and from two different sellers! Persistence pays! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 04, 2014, 06:34:29 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 04, 2014, 06:17:39 PM
New to me, just arrived, spinning the second for a first listen (for all you guys who miss Coop! :D ):

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSymphonies101amp102Haselboumlck_zpse44b5ec9.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSymphonies030073amp094Haselboumlck_zps94630803.jpg)

I posted the second one the other day to see if anyone was familiar with, but apparently not. Well, I will also be surprised if anyone is familiar with the other one either!

Wiener Akademie is a super band, they have their own sound, can't describe it but you know it when you hear it. Sort of how M used to say about idiomatic playing by orchestras. In the disk of the two London symphonies, they use a band of 35 players, which is plenty big enough. Playing is great, tempi are just how I like them. This may not be how they were played by the Opera Orchestra at their premiére, however, when he got back to Vienna with them and was finally a hero in his own town, these works were played constantly by Viennese orchestras and this is what they could have sounded like.

The one with the two earlier works on it, the notes don't say how large the ensemble is, but it is noticeably smaller, perhaps 20 players, which would have been the orchestra he was writing for. Very nice playing here, too!

I don't know if you will have an opportunity to get these disks, I just kept after it for 2-3 years until I found them, both at once and from two different sellers! Persistence pays! :)

8)

Sampling the 101/102 disc on iTunes, and at only $7.92. And I understand what you mean by "their own sound", has an almost perfect quality to it, not perfect in the sense that its as good as it gets but that the group is in such a strong partnership with both balance and tone.
Would love to hear Nos. 73 and 30.

Edit: iTunes has 94/73/30 and 6/7/8 bundled together. Not sure I need another Le Matin in my collection, but this sounds so sweet and smooth.
Does No. 30 "Alleluja" always have an organ in it? ??? I don't remember one, but it's in this one.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2014, 04:23:14 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 04, 2014, 06:34:29 PM
Sampling the 101/102 disc on iTunes, and at only $7.92. And I understand what you mean by "their own sound", has an almost perfect quality to it, not perfect in the sense that its as good as it gets but that the group is in such a strong partnership with both balance and tone.
Would love to hear Nos. 73 and 30.

Edit: iTunes has 94/73/30 and 6/7/8 bundled together. Not sure I need another Le Matin in my collection, but this sounds so sweet and smooth.
Does No. 30 "Alleluja" always have an organ in it? ??? I don't remember one, but it's in this one.

FWIW, their 6, 7 & 8 are very fine too, I think we discussed it with Gordo here a couple of years ago.

#30 has a continuo, unwritten but necessary anyway. I have no doubt that Haydn played one when it was originally performed. I would say their logic on it goes that it has been accepted to be a Church Symphony (at least it was for decades), and if that is so, then why not use the organ for continuo instead of a harpsichord? Especially when your leader is one of the top Baroque organists! I kinda like the sound, different and interesting. FWIW, #30 isn't even mentioned in the liner notes, only #73 & 94 are discussed, so one can only make assumptions. Strange, but then, those Swiss... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on June 05, 2014, 04:30:04 AM

Somebody, help me! ???

I acquired scores for 34, 35, 36, 38, and 65. Which should I hear first? Does anyone have a personal favorite out of these?

And don't just say "they're all good." I know that! 8)

I didn't care much for 22. I thought that the opening movement was kind of dull. *runs for his life*

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2014, 04:38:46 AM

Quote from: EigenUser on June 05, 2014, 04:30:04 AM
Somebody, help me! ???

I acquired scores for 34, 35, 36, 38, and 65. Which should I hear first? Does anyone have a personal favorite out of these?

And don't just say "they're all good." I know that! 8)

I didn't care much for 22. I thought that the opening movement was kind of dull. *runs for his life*

I like 38, it might be a good place to start. Here (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/02/1767-the-music-part-1-on-the-cusp-of-drama.html) is a little background on it. It is part of a genre that all Viennese composers contributed to from the early 1700's through Beethoven and even Bruckner, called 'Festive C major'. Haydn was as good at it as any, and better than most. Nice place to start, IMO. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on June 05, 2014, 04:39:46 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2014, 04:38:46 AM
I like 38, it might be a good place to start. Here (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/02/1767-the-music-part-1-on-the-cusp-of-drama.html) is a little background on it. It is part of a genre that all Viennese composers contributed to from the early 1700's through Beethoven and even Bruckner, called 'Festive C major'. Haydn was as good at it as any, and better than most. Nice place to start, IMO. :)

8)

Thanks! :) I'll check it out this afternoon!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 05, 2014, 04:46:15 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2014, 04:38:46 AM
. . . part of a genre that all Viennese composers contributed to from the early 1700's through Beethoven and even Bruckner, called 'Festive C major'. Haydn was as good at it as any, and better than most.

He was mighty good at 'Shake-Your-Tailfeather G major,' too! 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 05, 2014, 04:57:25 AM

Quote from: EigenUser on June 05, 2014, 04:30:04 AM
Somebody, help me! ???

I acquired scores for 34, 35, 36, 38, and 65. Which should I hear first? Does anyone have a personal favorite out of these?

In fact, 34, 35, and 36 are part of my favorites list, and so is 65! So, at least for my taste, you really scored with that haul (pun intended 8) ) Where to start? Go for the D minor.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 05, 2014, 05:03:46 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2014, 04:38:46 AM
I like 38, it might be a good place to start.

Listening to that now; cracking good fun!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2014, 05:42:36 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 05, 2014, 04:57:25 AM
In fact, 34, 35, and 36 are part of my favorites list, and so is 65! So, at least for my taste, you really scored with that haul (pun intended 8) ) Where to start? Go for the D minor.

Sarge

He specifically told me not to say 'all of them', Sarge. You broke the rules.(even though you're right) $:) :D

Quote from: karlhenning on June 05, 2014, 05:03:46 AM
Listening to that now; cracking good fun!

Yes it is. This work was used for several years after it was written, maybe even as late as 1773 when Maria Theresia was visiting. Probably when the trumpet & timpani parts were written.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 05, 2014, 05:52:49 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2014, 05:42:36 AM
He specifically told me not to say 'all of them', Sarge. You broke the rules.(even though you're right) $:) :D

Hey, I did omit 38! ;D ...but I better not listen to it now. There's a danger that hearing it again might induce me to include it after all 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2014, 05:55:14 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 05, 2014, 05:52:49 AM
Hey, I did omit 38! ;D ...but I better not listen to it now. There's a danger that hearing it again might induce me to include it after all 8)

Sarge

Well, you ex-military are used to living dangerously; I say, go for it! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 05, 2014, 07:45:05 AM

Quote from: EigenUser on June 05, 2014, 04:30:04 AM
Somebody, help me! ???

I acquired scores for 34, 35, 36, 38, and 65. Which should I hear first?

35! That opening Allegro di molto is a kicker!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on June 05, 2014, 12:52:16 PM

Quote from: EigenUser on June 05, 2014, 04:30:04 AM
Somebody, help me! ???

I acquired scores for 34, 35, 36, 38, and 65. Which should I hear first? Does anyone have a personal favorite out of these?

And don't just say "they're all good." I know that! 8)

I didn't care much for 22. I thought that the opening movement was kind of dull. *runs for his life*

Since you're a Boulezian these days, I suggest the following. Feed the scores into a shredder, number the resulting strips, construct a fibonacci sequence, take remainders modulo a prime near the number of strips, order the strips thereby and assemble a newer, better composition.
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on June 05, 2014, 12:57:13 PM

On another forum somone asked whether anything is known about Haydn's view of middle period Beethoven - things like the Eroica. No clear reply was forthcoming so I thought I'd see if anyone here knows the answer.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on June 05, 2014, 02:16:18 PM

Quote from: Ken B on June 05, 2014, 12:52:16 PM
Since you're a Boulezian these days, I suggest the following. Feed the scores into a shredder, number the resulting strips, construct a fibonacci sequence, take remainders modulo a prime near the number of strips, order the strips thereby and assemble a newer, better composition.
8)

::) So, liking one piece by Boulez (a short one, at that) makes me a Boulezian?

I am going to name 65 "The Sonar" because of the second movement. The quiet, repeated staccato notes in the violins reminds me of a sonar beeping. It also happens in the trio of the third movement. 8)

Hey, if Sarge can do it, so can I!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2014, 02:49:32 PM

Quote from: EigenUser on June 05, 2014, 02:16:18 PM
::) So, liking one piece by Boulez (a short one, at that) makes me a Boulezian?

Of course. It reminds me of an old, but unfortunately nasty joke, but to the same end. :D

QuoteI am going to name 65 "The Sonar" because of the second movement. The quiet, repeated staccato notes in the violins reminds me of a sonar beeping. It also happens in the trio of the third movement. 8)

Hey, if Sarge can do it, so can I!

I can live with that. Is there a Latin form of that acronym which will make it sound a bit more appropriate? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on June 05, 2014, 03:50:56 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2014, 02:49:32 PM
Of course. It reminds me of an old, but unfortunately nasty joke, but to the same end. :D

I know that joke! ??? ???

Young Nate, avert your eyes lest Gurn or I shock you with a glimpse of what you parents' generation is really like. ;) :laugh:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on June 05, 2014, 04:06:20 PM

Quote from: Ken B on June 05, 2014, 03:50:56 PM
I know that joke! ??? ???

Young Nate, avert your eyes lest Gurn or I shock you with a glimpse of what you parents' generation is really like. ;) :laugh:

It's okay. I have two shining examples currently downstairs arguing about characters on TV shows :( :-[. Well, not currently, but it has happened.

What is the joke?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on June 05, 2014, 04:31:34 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2014, 02:49:32 PM
Of course. It reminds me of an old, but unfortunately nasty joke, but to the same end. :D

I can live with that. Is there a Latin form of that acronym which will make it sound a bit more appropriate? :)

8)

according to this site, the Latin translation of sonar is sonar.
http://en.glosbe.com/en/la/sonar

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on June 05, 2014, 04:44:23 PM

Quote from: EigenUser on June 05, 2014, 04:06:20 PM
It's okay. I have two shining examples currently downstairs arguing about characters on TV shows :( :-[. Well, not currently, but it has happened.

What is the joke?

A man at the bar is complaining to the bartender. "I coached the football team for 10 years, do they call me Bob the football coach? No! I drove the school bus for 15 years, do they call me Bob the bus driver? No! I played the church organ for 20 years, do they call me Bob the church organist? No! But fuck one pig ..."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 05, 2014, 05:01:03 PM

The simple Haydn Haus Question of the day...

What do you find to be the most uncharacteristic composition from Haydn? A piece that stands out, not in a bad way or maybe it does.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2014, 05:08:13 PM

Quote from: Ken B on June 05, 2014, 04:44:23 PM
A man at the bar is complaining to the bartender. "I coached the football team for 10 years, do they call me Bob the football coach? No! I drove the school bus for 15 years, do they call me Bob the bus driver? No! I played the church organ for 20 years, do they call me Bob the church organist? No! But fuck one pig ..."

That's close enough for government work... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2014, 05:09:39 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 05, 2014, 05:01:03 PM
The simple Haydn Haus Question of the day...

What do you find to be the most uncharacteristic composition from Haydn? A piece that stands out, not in a bad way or maybe it does.

I'm going to assume you already have an answer, so that makes it a guessing game. :) Hmmm... I'll get back to you on that, gotta deal with Mandrake first. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 05, 2014, 05:10:47 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2014, 05:09:39 PM
I'm going to assume you already have an answer, so that makes it a guessing game. :) Hmmm... I'll get back to you on that, gotta deal with Mandrake first. 0:)

8)

Well, my purpose was to get different answers from everyone, there will not be an "envelope please" moment later. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: amw on June 05, 2014, 05:13:04 PM

I never thought the D major cello concerto was by Haydn, even before I learned of the authorship controversy. He's now generally considered to be the author, but it still doesn't sound like it to me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2014, 05:13:06 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 05, 2014, 04:31:34 PM
according to this site, the Latin translation of sonar is sonar.
http://en.glosbe.com/en/la/sonar

*sigh* I was hoping for something more colorful. I bet Karl can come up with something.

Let's see; SOund Navigation And Ranging... Luctus et sonum Adipiscing

LESA! OK, let's go with that, unless Karl helps us out. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2014, 05:16:56 PM

Quote from: amw on June 05, 2014, 05:13:04 PM
I never thought the D major cello concerto was by Haydn, even before I learned of the authorship controversy. He's now generally considered to be the author, but it still doesn't sound like it to me.

Yeah, but 'sounds like X' is a very difficult contention to prove or disprove. I haven't looked at that controversy in a couple of years, but IIRC it is pretty well definitive since an autograph manuscript turned up, wasn't that the case?

Or were you just answering Greg's question? :-[ Oops, sorry, I'm so argumentative! 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: amw on June 05, 2014, 05:18:38 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2014, 05:13:06 PM
*sigh* I was hoping for something more colorful. I bet Karl can come up with something.

Would you prefer a German title? Let's see, it's got repeated notes in it... hmm... Symphony No. 65 'mit dem Notenwiederholdung'. That should do it.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2014, 05:16:56 PM
Or were you just answering Greg's question? :-[ Oops, sorry, I'm so argumentative! 0:)

Yep. I'm sure it is actually by Haydn if the scholars have concluded it is, but it sounds very un-Haydnian to my ears.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2014, 05:32:13 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on June 05, 2014, 12:57:13 PM
On another forum someone asked whether anything is known about Haydn's view of middle period Beethoven - things like the Eroica. No clear reply was forthcoming so I thought I'd see if anyone here knows the answer.

I'm going to guess that this started with some sort of quotation of some statement by Haydn along the lines of his saying (after hearing the Eroica performed) 'This is strange and new music and everything is changed now' or something like that, is that correct?

I read that quote several years ago in a book about Beethoven, although right this minute I can't put my hands on it due to short memory issues. It was one of those "memoirs 50 years later" sort of things.

In Volume 5 of "Chronicle & Works" Robbins-Landon talks at length about the relationship between Haydn and Beethoven, which was rather acrimonious at best. On page 282 he discusses the possibility of Haydn hearing the Eroica in a performance conducted by Hummel (his replacement in Eisenstadt). There are scores for Beethoven 1 - 3 in the Esterházy collection, so anything is possible, but HCR-L concludes that there is no way to know if Haydn ever heard it, only that a series of circumstances may have allowed him to hear it. (last line on the page). My personal opinion is that by 1806 (when this could have happened) Haydn wasn't going to Eisenstadt very often, if at all. The likelihood is very very slim that he ever heard any Middle Period Beethoven at all. IIRC, the last documented Beethoven work he heard was The Creatures of Prometheus... :-\

Any implication that Haydn would have been derisive or wistful or in any way negative about Beethoven's music is hogwash. I just want to get that on the record. If you look at Haydn's final instrumental works, the Opus 77 string quartets, you can easily see that Haydn was even at his advanced age, going down the same sort of musical road that Beethoven was on. His musical language post-London looks forward to the 19th century, and not just the first decade of it. It took his death to allow others to catch up with him musically! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2014, 05:36:28 PM

Quote from: amw on June 05, 2014, 05:18:38 PM
Would you prefer a German title? Let's see, it's got repeated notes in it... hmm... Symphony No. 65 'mit dem Notenwiederholdung'. That should do it.
Yep. I'm sure it is actually by Haydn if the scholars have concluded it is, but it sounds very un-Haydnian to my ears.

Oh, I love that! Notenwiederholdung! It rolls trippingly off the tongue, does it not? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on June 05, 2014, 05:40:06 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2014, 05:08:13 PM
That's close enough for government work... :D

8)

My bowdlerization is more PC than your version!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2014, 05:42:14 PM

Quote from: Ken B on June 05, 2014, 05:40:06 PM
My bowdlerization is more PC than your version!

Yes, yes it is. Nice to meet someone whose been around the same block I have. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on June 05, 2014, 09:42:40 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2014, 05:32:13 PM
In Volume 5 of "Chronicle & Works" Robbins-Landon talks at length about the relationship between Haydn and Beethoven, which was rather acrimonious at best.

Isn't that a bit of an overstatement? I know it was strained, at least at times, but to me, "acrimonious at best" says "they despised each other." I haven't read Robbins-Landon though.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on June 06, 2014, 03:55:48 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 05, 2014, 05:01:03 PM
The simple Haydn Haus Question of the day...

What do you find to be the most uncharacteristic composition from Haydn? A piece that stands out, not in a bad way or maybe it does.

For me Greg, it is perhaps 'The Seven Last Words...' in string quartet form. Uber unique, love the piece.

Also, the Sinfonia Concertante No. 105 is pretty unique, as is # 60 'Il Distratto'.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 06, 2014, 04:18:37 AM

Quote from: Pat B on June 05, 2014, 09:42:40 PM
Isn't that a bit of an overstatement? I know it was strained, at least at times, but to me, "acrimonious at best" says "they despised each other." I haven't read Robbins-Landon though.

Not an overstatement, at least vis-a-vis Beethoven's feelings about Haydn. It is a very complicated thing though, heavily weighed down by the fact that Haydn was the most popular musician in the world and Beethoven really wanted to be. From the day that it became obvious that Haydn was too debilitated to compose any longer, the whole thing did a 180° turn and all was well. Haydn didn't hold any hard feelings for Beethoven, nor did he need to. He already had what Beethoven wanted. It is really a very interesting character study, you might like to check it out some day, worth your while. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 06, 2014, 04:21:42 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on June 06, 2014, 03:55:48 AM
For me Greg, it is perhaps 'The Seven Last Words...' in string quartet form. Uber unique, love the piece.

Also, the Sinfonia Concertante No. 105 is pretty unique, as is # 60 'Il Distratto'.

The first 2 are, I think, right on. In thinking about it last night, 7 Last Words was the piece I had narrowed on, although not any particular version of it. The Sinfonia is a great choice too, simply because it ISN'T Haydnesque in any way, it is strictly London (French, really) style popular music. Good thinking there! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 06, 2014, 04:45:50 AM

Huzzah for our Ray!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on June 06, 2014, 11:05:36 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 06, 2014, 04:18:37 AM
Not an overstatement, at least vis-a-vis Beethoven's feelings about Haydn. It is a very complicated thing though, heavily weighed down by the fact that Haydn was the most popular musician in the world and Beethoven really wanted to be. From the day that it became obvious that Haydn was too debilitated to compose any longer, the whole thing did a 180° turn and all was well. Haydn didn't hold any hard feelings for Beethoven, nor did he need to. He already had what Beethoven wanted. It is really a very interesting character study, you might like to check it out some day, worth your while. :)

8)

Thanks for the response. I'm going to do some reading, but it might take a while. Don't be surprised if I bump this in several months. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on June 06, 2014, 01:56:47 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 06, 2014, 04:18:37 AM
Not an overstatement, at least vis-a-vis Beethoven's feelings about Haydn. It is a very complicated thing though, heavily weighed down by the fact that Haydn was the most popular musician in the world and Beethoven really wanted to be. From the day that it became obvious that Haydn was too debilitated to compose any longer, the whole thing did a 180° turn and all was well. Haydn didn't hold any hard feelings for Beethoven, nor did he need to. He already had what Beethoven wanted. It is really a very interesting character study, you might like to check it out some day, worth your while. :)

8)

As I have mentioned, I avoid learning too much about the artists I admire, because it's usually bad. Haydn is one of the few composers, Brahms another, who seem to have been thoroughly decent.
But I won't thank you for this nugget; how does Ludwig come out of it :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 06, 2014, 02:40:08 PM

Quote from: Ken B on June 06, 2014, 01:56:47 PM
As I have mentioned, I avoid learning too much about the artists I admire, because it's usually bad. Haydn is one of the few composers, Brahms another, who seem to have been thoroughly decent.
But I won't thank you for this nugget; how does Ludwig come out of it :)

I can't help my passion for history, it is the essence of my character. However, I have a very open mind about such things and don't take them as a make or break deal.

What I study now of Haydn, having all his music and every imaginable book about him, before him I did this with Beethoven, and before that, with Mozart. I am a huge fan of Beethoven's music, and I admire many things about him and especially what he accomplished. That said, I can only and honestly say that he was pretty much an asshole. This was well known to his contemporaries, but progressively overlooked and/or explained away by his successors. I don't know why, since he was what he was, and it changes nothing about his music. At least I can say that he had no apparent prejudices, all of his issues were with specific persons for specific reasons, and that is admirable, especially in his time.

Haydn has plenty of warts of his own, but they don't involve treating anyone like crap. Well, maybe his wife, but that went both ways. And publishers too, but they still had a huge advantage over him and used it always. He went out of his way to help any and every musician, even one who could have been a rival down the road (although none ever was). Not even Mozart in his lifetime was a rival of Haydn, only after his death, and even then Haydn helped promote him for the benefit of his family.

If I were to allow my own 21st century prejudices to affect their 18th century actions and thoughts, I think I would be missing out on some of the most important and interesting aspects of their lives and careers. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on June 06, 2014, 02:52:53 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 06, 2014, 02:40:08 PM
I can't help my passion for history, it is the essence of my character. However, I have a very open mind about such things and don't take them as a make or break deal.

What I study now of Haydn, having all his music and every imaginable book about him, before him I did this with Beethoven, and before that, with Mozart. I am a huge fan of Beethoven's music, and I admire many things about him and especially what he accomplished. That said, I can only and honestly say that he was pretty much an asshole. This was well known to his contemporaries, but progressively overlooked and/or explained away by his successors. I don't know why, since he was what he was, and it changes nothing about his music. At least I can say that he had no apparent prejudices, all of his issues were with specific persons for specific reasons, and that is admirable, especially in his time.

Haydn has plenty of warts of his own, but they don't involve treating anyone like crap. Well, maybe his wife, but that went both ways. And publishers too, but they still had a huge advantage over him and used it always. He went out of his way to help any and every musician, even one who could have been a rival down the road (although none ever was). Not even Mozart in his lifetime was a rival of Haydn, only after his death, and even then Haydn helped promote him for the benefit of his family.

If I were to allow my own 21st century prejudices to affect their 18th century actions and thoughts, I think I would be missing out on some of the most important and interesting aspects of their lives and careers. :)

8)

+1. I love history (minored in US history). For fun, I focus on 20th-century history of music. Particularly the lives of Bartok, Ravel, and Ligeti. All fascinating characters.

And yeah, I heard that Haydn and his wife pretty much hated each other. Apparently he really wanted to marry her sister, but she was to become a nun so he had to settle for her. I even read that she would use his manuscripts as curling-paper for her hair :laugh:. I wonder what great music was lost as a result.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on June 06, 2014, 06:06:01 PM

Actually, LvB displayed several key traits of Asperger Syndrome (although that term is being discreetly shown the door by the DSM folks, who prefer HighFunctioning Autism as a term of art, although it is equally vague when you get down to it). His being a right royal PITA fits well with that. It is rather odd that people have rushed to claim Mozart as autistic, yet ignore Beethoven, who fits the mold far better. (For WAM the only real evidence is the fact that he does not seem to have started talking until he was four.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 06, 2014, 06:15:56 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 06, 2014, 06:06:01 PM
Actually, LvB displayed several key traits of Asperger Syndrome (although that term is being discreetly shown the door by the DSM folks, who prefer HighFunctioning Autism as a term of art, although it is equally vague when you get down to it). His being a right royal PITA fits well with that. It is rather odd that people have rushed to claim Mozart as autistic, yet ignore Beethoven, who fits the mold far better. (For WAM the only real evidence is the fact that he does not seem to have started talking until he was four.)

Yes, there are books and books diagnosing the stars of the past. I find them interesting but unconvincing, in the main. Someone who spent a good deal of time trying to psychoanalyze Beethoven was Maynard Solomon, who got into an everlasting world of giant poop because he suggested that not everything about Beethoven was exactly 'normal', whatever that might be! Here and there Solomon was OTT, but he was within bounds to speculate, they were mostly reasonable suppositions. Hard for even a fine doctor to diagnose someone without actually interviewing the live person, given how memoirs are skewed by the lens of the writer.

Asperger's does seem to fit the observable symptoms, but some of those 'symptoms' are biased by modern perceptions and experiences which may not be germane to late 18th / early 19th century conditions. I don't care though if he was a Froot Loop. I rather like Froot Loops. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 08, 2014, 08:51:29 AM

OK, I promise, this will be the last opera for a little while. :D But it IS a singspiel, and it does have puppets, so hey, this is something new and different. Check it out and see!

Not just stringing us along! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/06/1773-the-music-part-4-.html)

Thanks for that, and please, feel free to discuss. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on June 08, 2014, 12:08:15 PM

Okay, a possible name for 38 is "The Incompetent 2nd Violinist" because they play in the "wrong" place in the 2nd movement many times. It reminds me of that part towards the end of the first movement of Shostakovich's 9th symphony, where the trombone keeps coming in at the "wrong" time, and then they finally get it right.

Or, it could also be called "The Show-off Oboist".

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 08, 2014, 12:18:20 PM

Quote from: EigenUser on June 08, 2014, 12:08:15 PM
Okay, a possible name for 38 is "The Incompetent 2nd Violinist" because they play in the "wrong" place in the 2nd movement many times. It reminds me of that part towards the end of the first movement of Shostakovich's 9th symphony, where the trombone keeps coming in at the "wrong" time, and then they finally get it right.

Or, it could also be called "The Show-off Oboist".

Well, the oboe idea is the one which we have received from our ancestors. Isn't that some great writing there? Haydn was blessed to get Vittorino Colombazzo, one of the top oboists of the day, hired on for a short time. Speculation is this symphony was already under construction about the time Colombazzo arrived, and so the initial plan got scrapped and from the trio of the minuet onward, the symphony became an oboe concerto! I like it! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on June 08, 2014, 12:20:08 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 08, 2014, 12:18:20 PM
Well, the oboe idea is the one which we have received from our ancestors. Isn't that some great writing there? Haydn was blessed to get Vittorino Colombazzo, one of the top oboists of the day, hired on for a short time. Speculation is this symphony was already under construction about the time Colombazzo arrived, and so the initial plan got scrapped and from the trio of the minuet onward, the symphony became an oboe concerto! I like it! :)

8)

Yes, during the third and fourth movements I was thinking that it was almost like an oboe concerto. One of my favorites so far, for sure.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 08, 2014, 12:23:54 PM

Quote from: EigenUser on June 08, 2014, 12:20:08 PM
Yes, during the third and fourth movements I was thinking that it was almost like an oboe concerto. One of my favorites so far, for sure.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2014, 04:38:46 AM
I like 38, it might be a good place to start. Here (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/02/1767-the-music-part-1-on-the-cusp-of-drama.html) is a little background on it. It is part of a genre that all Viennese composers contributed to from the early 1700's through Beethoven and even Bruckner, called 'Festive C major'. Haydn was as good at it as any, and better than most. Nice place to start, IMO. :)

8)

Ahem; I thought you might like it... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on June 08, 2014, 01:10:03 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 08, 2014, 12:23:54 PM
Ahem; I thought you might like it... :D

8)

And he has 39 still to listen to.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 08, 2014, 01:26:35 PM

Quote from: Ken B on June 08, 2014, 01:10:03 PM
And he has 39 still to listen to.

Yup, a lot to look forward to there. The outer movements of 39 are forward looking, while the inner movements look the other way. Interesting contrast. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on June 08, 2014, 04:07:13 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 08, 2014, 01:26:35 PM
Yup, a lot to look forward to there. The outer movements of 39 are forward looking, while the inner movements look the other way. Interesting contrast. :)

8)

So far I've heard:
1 6 7 8 22 35 36 37 38 39 46 65 79 83 85 87 88 92 95 96 98 99 100

That's 23 of them, or precisely 22.1154% (going by the usual numbered 104). I mean, sure, I could spend a couple of days playing each one on YouTube, but I'd rather listen a few times (both with and without the score) and let it absorb. I am finding that classical (era) music can often sound generic to me if I listen passively. I do play music in the background quite often, but I can't really appreciate it well for its own sake like that. It's only when I listen actively that I can distinguish each one and see the craft behind it.

I'm going to keep a little checklist on my introduction page (inspired by Gurn's grid a few pages ago) as a place for me to keep track of what I've heard.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 08, 2014, 05:46:18 PM

Quote from: EigenUser on June 08, 2014, 04:07:13 PM
So far I've heard:
1 6 7 8 22 35 36 37 38 39 46 65 79 83 85 87 88 92 95 96 98 99 100

That's 23 of them, or precisely 22.1154% (going by the usual numbered 104). I mean, sure, I could spend a couple of days playing each one on YouTube, but I'd rather listen a few times (both with and without the score) and let it absorb. I am finding that classical (era) music can often sound generic to me if I listen passively. I do play music in the background quite often, but I can't really appreciate it well for its own sake like that. It's only when I listen actively that I can distinguish each one and see the craft behind it.

I'm going to keep a little checklist on my introduction page (inspired by Gurn's grid a few pages ago) as a place for me to keep track of what I've heard.

Honestly, I wish I had done something like that at the start. The horse is out of the paddock now, though, and I have heard every one of them at least 20 times, some of them way more than that. Neither do I have scores for all of them. It would be great practice for me to listen with scores though, since I now know the music so well that it would have a reverse effect from what it has for you and would learn score-reading better.

Good plan! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on June 09, 2014, 03:20:01 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 08, 2014, 05:46:18 PM
Honestly, I wish I had done something like that at the start. The horse is out of the paddock now, though, and I have heard every one of them at least 20 times, some of them way more than that. Neither do I have scores for all of them. It would be great practice for me to listen with scores though, since I now know the music so well that it would have a reverse effect from what it has for you and would learn score-reading better.

Good plan! :)

8)

Yeah, no hurry. I mean it's not like playing Super Mario where playing all levels unlocks secret levels (right??).

I do wish that I was able to appreciate music better without having to know what it looks like on paper. So many people here have heard so many things and they can appreciate music for the sound as opposed to the writing on paper. Perhaps many of them wish the opposite. I guess "the grass is always greener."

I actually have a couple of questions that I'll post in the near future (I'll have to take a couple of pictures). Just a few things that caught my attention while listening with the score.

What editions of the scores do you have? Do you have a preference, or are you like me in that you get whatever copy you can get your hands on?

I hate miniature scores, by the way. Hate, hate, hate. It isn't so much of a problem with Haydn, but many composers still not PD only have things available in miniature scores. Universal Edition is notorious for this, as is Boosey&Hawkes, though the latter is actually getting better with their "masterworks" series. This sucks for me, though, since these are Bartok's two publishers. Currently I'm thinking of doing a two-piano reduction of the Bartok "Divertimento for Strings", but I'll have to be squinting at the 6"x4.5" nearly-index-card-size score. Schott is awesome, though -- they print full-size scores. Then again, a mini-score for Ligeti would require a scanning-electron-microscope so they don't have much of a choice. I also just got Ades "Asyla" for my birthday last week and that was an oversized score.

Well, that's my miniature-score rant.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 09, 2014, 03:24:27 AM

Quote from: EigenUser on June 08, 2014, 04:07:13 PM
So far I've heard:
1 6 7 8 22 35 36 37 38 39 46 65 79 83 85 87 88 92 95 96 98 99 100

Color coded? What does it mean?

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on June 09, 2014, 03:25:48 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 09, 2014, 03:24:27 AM
Color coded? What does it mean?

Sarge

Oops, I forgot to mention. Green means I particularly liked it and red means I didn't care for it much. It's on my introduction page:
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,22921.msg808077.html#msg808077

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 09, 2014, 12:01:11 PM

I've been meaning to update my pages with the symphony chronologies, but time has been short. Since I learned how to put tables in a page, I went back and updated part 1 & 2, and added page 4, bringing the series all the way up to the Paris Symphonies!

Chronology of the Symphonies 1775 - 1784 (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/the-chronology-of-the-symphonies-part-4-1775-1784-.html)

Hope you find it useful. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: torut on June 09, 2014, 07:29:43 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 09, 2014, 12:01:11 PM
I've been meaning to update my pages with the symphony chronologies, but time has been short. Since I learned how to put tables in a page, I went back and updated part 1 & 2, and added page 4, bringing the series all the way up to the Paris Symphonies!

Chronology of the Symphonies 1775 - 1784 (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/the-chronology-of-the-symphonies-part-4-1775-1784-.html)

Hope you find it useful. :)

8)

This is an invaluable information. Thank you. This kind of info on Wikipedia or IMLSP seem inaccurate. ;D

I have a question. Is there a book about Haydn's compositions like The Compleat Mozart by Zaslaw: the name, the key, the numbering (Hob. etc.), the composition year, the scoring, a short description of the background, for every composition of Haydn? I understand that it would be a difficult task (I read that chronology thing :)), and I am afraid that the answer is "no", but I believe Haydn deserves such a book that is accessible to any Haydn fans.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on June 10, 2014, 03:26:18 AM

Okay, here is my question. I hope you don't mind.

What is the deal with these grace notes in the first circled measure? This happens in nearly every symphony I've seen so far and this one (38) is just an example. Why are they played like a set of four sixteenth-notes? Is there some sort of unspoken rule about this? If so, why doesn't he just write four sixteenth notes?

On the other hand, look at the next measure, where there is a set of four sixteenth-notes. Why isn't this notated as before (with the grace note)? Is there a difference that my modern-era ear can't distinguish? To me, they both sound like a set of four sixteenth-notes.

To make matters even more confusing, I was listening to another symphony of his with the score, and one of the grace notes was played like a normal grace note.

You might have to right-click "view image" to see it right-side up in case it isn't already.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/7wcy7vj82m8uvp8/Photo%20Jun%2010%2C%207%2014%2026%20AM.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: amw on June 10, 2014, 03:36:56 AM

The short answer is that the grace notes (technically appoggiaturas) were used at the time as a sort of shorthand for common ornaments/melodic patterns, similar to the trill, mordent and turn symbols. That particular pattern is always played as four semiquavers or quavers.

I have to go to bed now, I'll give the long answer when I next have a chance to fire up Sibelius

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 10, 2014, 04:19:31 AM

Quote from: torut on June 09, 2014, 07:29:43 PM
This is an invaluable information. Thank you. This kind of info on Wikipedia or IMLSP seem inaccurate. ;D

I have a question. Is there a book about Haydn's compositions like The Compleat Mozart by Zaslaw: the name, the key, the numbering (Hob. etc.), the composition year, the scoring, a short description of the background, for every composition of Haydn? I understand that it would be a difficult task (I read that chronology thing :)), and I am afraid that the answer is "no", but I believe Haydn deserves such a book that is accessible to any Haydn fans.

Well, I'm writing one now, so if you are patient, maybe it will be available in your lifetime! That is one of the 2 books I have chosen as a model, the other being Thayer's Life of Beethoven. I think Zaslaw was totally on the mark with his Mozart book, it is one of my favorites. But otherwise, the short answer is no. There is no such book. This is the source of my inspiration! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 10, 2014, 04:22:18 AM

Quote from: amw on June 10, 2014, 03:36:56 AM
The short answer is that the grace notes (technically appoggiaturas) were used at the time as a sort of shorthand for common ornaments/melodic patterns, similar to the trill, mordent and turn symbols. That particular pattern is always played as four semiquavers or quavers.

I have to go to bed now, I'll give the long answer when I next have a chance to fire up Sibelius

I shall appreciate that. I have a half-remembered answer which I keep in reserve, because I should shake the dust off . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: torut on June 10, 2014, 07:51:29 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 10, 2014, 04:19:31 AM
Well, I'm writing one now, so if you are patient, maybe it will be available in your lifetime! That is one of the 2 books I have chosen as a model, the other being Thayer's Life of Beethoven. I think Zaslaw was totally on the mark with his Mozart book, it is one of my favorites. But otherwise, the short answer is no. There is no such book. This is the source of my inspiration! :)

8)

Thank you for the answer. There are Haydn books about popular genres such as symphonies and string quartets, but it would be wonderful if there is a book like Zaslaw's, including every composition of Haydn. Your plan of that kind of book is really exciting! I am looking forward to it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 10, 2014, 07:56:34 AM

Quote from: torut on June 10, 2014, 07:51:29 AM
Thank you for the answer. There are Haydn books about popular genres such as symphonies and string quartets, but it would be wonderful if there is a book like Zaslaw's, including every composition of Haydn. Your plan of that kind of book is really exciting! I am looking forward to it.

Thanks! In fact, I'm looking forward to it too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 10, 2014, 03:21:31 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 04, 2014, 09:37:41 AM
Pardon if this is "old news," but look what is being released day after tomorrow:

[asin]B009LNI0T0[/asin]

*delayed reaction* Isn't that simply the set you've all been waving enticingly in front of my eyes for months and months?

It says 'import', and the release date now also says July. It doesn't look like a new release at all.

EDIT: And note the dates of the customer reviews.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 10, 2014, 04:28:57 PM

Quote from: orfeo on June 10, 2014, 03:21:31 PM
*delayed reaction* Isn't that simply the set you've all been waving enticingly in front of my eyes for months and months?

It says 'import', and the release date now also says July. It doesn't look like a new release at all.

EDIT: And note the dates of the customer reviews.

Orf,
I think they all bought it from Italy and other Euro venues last year. It was not released in the States til now. I can't say for sure since I already had all the individual volumes and so it never affected me personally... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 12, 2014, 03:47:04 AM

It's still not released in the States. The page is for an import, hence the expense.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 12, 2014, 04:21:20 AM

Quote from: orfeo on June 12, 2014, 03:47:04 AM
It's still not released in the States. The page is for an import, hence the expense.

Ah, that makes sense then, as much as such stuff ever could. The 'import' thing is a scam, no two ways about it. I suppose back in the days when CD's were carried over here on 6 week voyages in wooden sailing ships it made sense. Now, not so much... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on June 12, 2014, 06:59:18 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 12, 2014, 04:21:20 AM
Ah, that makes sense then, as much as such stuff ever could. The 'import' thing is a scam, no two ways about it. I suppose back in the days when CD's were carried over here on 6 week voyages in wooden sailing ships it made sense. Now, not so much... :)

8)

Ahh, yes. The Nina, the Pinta, and the Santa Maria.

Off to get more scores.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 14, 2014, 07:06:27 AM

Special request: can one of you guys check out my blog using the link in my footer, and check to see if all of the special characters like ö, á, ü etc. are all screwed up? I have been complaining about this to the blog people and they haven't done anything; wondering if it is just me? :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 14, 2014, 07:15:40 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 14, 2014, 07:06:27 AM
Special request: can one of you guys check out my blog using the link in my footer, and check to see if all of the special characters like ö, á, ü etc. are all screwed up? I have been complaining about this to the blog people and they haven't done anything; wondering if it is just me? :-\

8)

Yeah, screwed up. Here's what I see:

CosÃ¬ fan Tutte
ZauberflÃ¶te
OCDâ€¦
KurzbÃ¶ck
La InfedeltÃ Delusa
Der GÃ¶tterath

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Papy Oli on June 14, 2014, 07:16:30 AM

not just you, Gurn :

ZauberflÃ¶te
EszterhÃ¡za's
fiancÃ©
Mozart's CosÃ¬ fan Tutte
KurzbÃ¶ck
Sorting out the Keyboard Music â€" You wish
Itâ€™s nice
câ€™est tout simple

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Papy Oli on June 14, 2014, 07:17:46 AM

what sarge said.... ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 14, 2014, 07:18:26 AM

:'( Damn. Makes me look like even more of a moron... :(

Thanks for checking, guys. Boy, I haven't seen that sort of crap since Unicode came out. ::)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Papy Oli on June 14, 2014, 07:19:28 AM

while I am here...

McCabe, Buchbinder or Derzhavina please ? 0:)

(I only have the partial brendel).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 14, 2014, 07:23:20 AM

Quote from: Papy Oli on June 14, 2014, 07:19:28 AM
while I am here...

McCabe, Buchbinder or Derzhavina please ? 0:)

(I only have the partial brendel).

Others will have a more complete response, I can only say that McCabe served me very well for several years before my PI addiction took over. Even now I listen to a disk here and there. He's very good. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on June 14, 2014, 09:34:54 AM

Quote from: Papy Oli on June 14, 2014, 07:19:28 AM
while I am here...

McCabe, Buchbinder or Derzhavina please ? 0:)

(I only have the partial brendel).

Brautigam and Beghin.

Title: Re: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 14, 2014, 04:52:15 PM

Quote from: Papy Oli on June 14, 2014, 07:19:28 AM
while I am here...

McCabe, Buchbinder or Derzhavina please ? 0:)

(I only have the partial brendel).

Of those, I like Derzhavina.

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 14, 2014, 09:34:54 AM
Brautigam and Beghin.

The Beghin box is wonderful.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on June 14, 2014, 05:41:27 PM

Quote from: Papy Oli on June 14, 2014, 07:19:28 AM
while I am here...

McCabe, Buchbinder or Derzhavina please ? 0:)

(I only have the partial brendel).

Right now, I would also choose Derzhavina.

I have owned the McCabe set for several years and, as Gurn says, it's an excellent approach, but Derzhavina is closer to the stylistic ideas favored these days (especially with a significant reduction of pedal). Additionally, she is a girl and, spiritually, this music has an especial relationship with ladies.

IMO, Buchbinder is also a good choice, if you're searching for a traditional pianistic approach.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 14, 2014, 06:26:12 PM

Quote from: Gordo on June 14, 2014, 05:41:27 PM
Right now, I would also choose Derzhavina.

I have owned the McCabe set for several years and, as Gurn says, it's an excellent approach, but Derzhavina is closer to the stylistic ideas favored these days (especially with a significant reduction of pedal). Additionally, she is a girl and, spiritually, this music has an especial relationship with ladies.

IMO, Buchbinder is also a good choice, if you're searching for a traditional pianistic approach.

Quote from: karlhenning on June 14, 2014, 04:52:15 PM
Of those, I like Derzhavina.

The Beghin box is wonderful.

Interesting, Gordo's points vis-a-vis Derzhavina are both well-taken. I believe that even if someone prefers a modern piano, some aspects of historical authenticity are well taken. In the event I ever wish to acquire a MI box for myself, I will look at this one first. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: torut on June 14, 2014, 07:33:53 PM

I like the Derzhavina set very much. Listening to it was one of the reasons I wanted to hear Haydn's music as much as possible, not only popular ones. Then, I purchased Brilliant Classics Haydn Edition, including another set of keyboard sonatas (PI, Oot etc.) And now I also have the Schornsheim set (PI), but still the Derzhavina set is my favorite (so far). I usually prefer PI to MI (especially for strings), but Derzhavina's clear playing is suited for Haydn's music very well, I think.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on June 15, 2014, 01:34:58 PM

I am going to call the 39th "The Parking Violation" from now on. I went to the music store last week and after making a purchase the really nice lady there gave me the score and set of parts for 39 (I ask to buy the score separately and she responds "How many times have I told you?? I don't want those parts!" :laugh:). Worth $40. I go back to my car and I got a $40 parking ticket because I was too stupid to understand how the parking garage system worked :-[.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on June 15, 2014, 02:30:29 PM

Quote from: EigenUser on June 15, 2014, 01:34:58 PM
I am going to call the 39th "The Parking Violation" from now on. I went to the music store last week and after making a purchase the really nice lady there gave me the score and set of parts for 39 (I ask to buy the score separately and she responds "How many times have I told you?? I don't want those parts!" :laugh:). Worth $40. I go back to my car and I got a $40 parking ticket because I was too stupid to understand how the parking garage system worked :-[.

Read the ticket carefully. There is often a period where if you pay fast it is only half. That's the case here, when I bought my Parking Violation music.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 15, 2014, 03:00:52 PM

Quote from: EigenUser on June 15, 2014, 01:34:58 PM
I am going to call the 39th "The Parking Violation" from now on. I went to the music store last week and after making a purchase the really nice lady there gave me the score and set of parts for 39 (I ask to buy the score separately and she responds "How many times have I told you?? I don't want those parts!" :laugh:). Worth $40. I go back to my car and I got a $40 parking ticket because I was too stupid to understand how the parking garage system worked :-[.

Oh, man, good news :: bad news. You got an interesting score, no doubt. he price was a bit on the steep side though. :-\

I think I have my blog fixed now. TypePad was not a lot of help, but I figured it out for myself. At least it looks right to me, if anyone happens to go by there, let me know. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 15, 2014, 03:05:46 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 15, 2014, 03:00:52 PM
I think I have my blog fixed now. TypePad was not a lot of help, but I figured it out for myself. At least it looks right to me, if anyone happens to go by there, let me know. :)

The characters are appearing correctly now.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 15, 2014, 04:03:08 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 15, 2014, 03:05:46 PM
The characters are appearing correctly now.

Sarge

Thanks, Sarge. TypePad need to hire me to fix their issues, I guess. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 15, 2014, 06:04:08 PM

1774 was a year which didn't have any major highlight; no Empress visiting, for example. Yet there was plenty of musical opportunity for Haydn, given the range of interests and wealth of his patron. So here is a brief look at some of that. Check it out if you are interested, and let's talk! :)

The theater steals the show (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/06/1774-the-year.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Papy Oli on June 16, 2014, 11:53:11 AM

Thank you guys for the comments on the sonatas cycles on the previous page, much appreciated :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 16, 2014, 12:12:49 PM

Quote from: Papy Oli on June 16, 2014, 11:53:11 AM
Thank you guys for the comments on the sonatas cycles on the previous page, much appreciated :)

We treat everyone right, here at Da Haus! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 16, 2014, 06:13:57 PM

In a confluence of events which I hope is more (or less) portentous than last week's full moon / Friday the 13th, I am celebrating exactly 1 year this week of writing my Haydn blog, and doing it with the 100th essay in the series! If you would like to have a look, please do, and feel free to comment or discuss. Among other things I have listed a few additions I am working on for this year. :)

Essay #100 (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/06/celebrating-haydn-from-beginning-to-end.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 16, 2014, 07:17:19 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 16, 2014, 06:13:57 PM
In a confluence of events which I hope is more (or less) portentous than last week's full moon / Friday the 13th, I am celebrating exactly 1 year this week of writing my Haydn blog, and doing it with the 100th essay in the series! If you would like to have a look, please do, and feel free to comment or discuss. Among other things I have listed a few additions I am working on for this year. :)

Essay #100 (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/06/celebrating-haydn-from-beginning-to-end.html)

Thanks!
8)

Gurn - CONGRATS! I've read many of your excellent essays on Papa Haydn (not all at least yet!) - keep up the great work, and I'll certainly return to read some more - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 17, 2014, 04:18:40 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on June 16, 2014, 07:17:19 PM
Gurn - CONGRATS! I've read many of your excellent essays on Papa Haydn (not all at least yet!) - keep up the great work, and I'll certainly return to read some more - Dave :)

Thanks, Dave. It has been an interesting and enjoyable project so far, and the fact that it interests others is a nice bonus! Of course, I could do a year standing on my head; let's see what next year brings! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 17, 2014, 04:39:11 AM

"Papa's" good cheer and consistent productivity are my inspiration: dadgummit, this is the year I finish White Nights, and I'll dedicate the completed project to da Haus.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 17, 2014, 04:43:40 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 17, 2014, 04:39:11 AM
"Papa's" good cheer and consistent productivity are my inspiration: dadgummit, this is the year I finish White Nights, and I'll dedicate the completed project to da Haus.

You need to cultivate an aristocratic benefactor, Karl. A pity that you live in Boston, a place where royalty is hard to find.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 17, 2014, 04:44:38 AM

We gave them the Brookline boot!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 17, 2014, 04:59:40 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 16, 2014, 06:13:57 PM
In a confluence of events which I hope is more (or less) portentous than last week's full moon / Friday the 13th, I am celebrating exactly 1 year this week of writing my Haydn blog, and doing it with the 100th essay in the series! If you would like to have a look, please do, and feel free to comment or discuss. Among other things I have listed a few additions I am working on for this year. :)

Essay #100 (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/06/celebrating-haydn-from-beginning-to-end.html)

Thanks!
8)

Congratulations on a worthy endeavor. Looking forward to another fine year of reading.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 17, 2014, 05:03:55 AM

Huzzah for our Gurn!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 17, 2014, 05:53:55 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 17, 2014, 04:59:40 AM
Congratulations on a worthy endeavor. Looking forward to another fine year of reading.

Sarge

Quote from: karlhenning on June 17, 2014, 05:03:55 AM
Huzzah for our Gurn!

Thanks, guys, I do appreciate it. Y'all have inspired me to do this well. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on June 17, 2014, 09:47:31 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 17, 2014, 04:44:38 AM
We gave them the Brookline boot!

Just curious, but I am under the impression you're a Brit Karl, or were.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 17, 2014, 10:24:05 AM

Born and raised here on US soil. In some of my garments, I've not got quite all the soil out even now.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 17, 2014, 10:28:45 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 17, 2014, 10:24:05 AM
Born and raised here on US soil. In some of my garments, I've not got quite all the soil out even now.

Oh dear, I've soiled my linen... :D

That's OK, Karl, I've been accused of the same failing. This is why I toss in the occasional 'y'all' to keep my little bit of Texas goin' on. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on June 18, 2014, 03:04:42 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 16, 2014, 06:13:57 PM
In a confluence of events which I hope is more (or less) portentous than last week's full moon / Friday the 13th, I am celebrating exactly 1 year this week of writing my Haydn blog, and doing it with the 100th essay in the series! If you would like to have a look, please do, and feel free to comment or discuss. Among other things I have listed a few additions I am working on for this year. :)

Essay #100 (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/06/celebrating-haydn-from-beginning-to-end.html)

Thanks!
8)

100? So? I thought 104 was the new 100! ;D

I've read a few so far and I really have enjoyed them. I like how they are written so that even a newbie to Haydn like myself can understand them, but they aren't at all "dumbed-down". You (along with Uatu and his Stockhausen blog) have even inspired me to consider starting a Ligeti blog.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 18, 2014, 04:15:13 AM

Quote from: EigenUser on June 18, 2014, 03:04:42 AM
100? So? I thought 104 was the new 100! ;D

I've read a few so far and I really have enjoyed them. I like how they are written so that even a newbie to Haydn like myself can understand them, but they aren't at all "dumbed-down". You (along with Uatu and his Stockhausen blog) have even inspired me to consider starting a Ligeti blog.

Thanks, your comments are much appreciated. Especially inasmuch as this was precisely the effect I was going for; aimed at intelligent people who (especially!!) aren't professional musicologists.

I think you would get a great deal of enjoyment from writing a blog. It is not only a great opportunity to justify all you spend on research ( :D ) but personally satisfying too. I strongly encourage you to explore the possibility. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 18, 2014, 02:28:17 PM

Newly purchased, on a rec by Gordo. Looking forward to this one a lot, since I not only like Lubimov, but I really like the sound of a Tangentenflügel!

[asin]B00IRQBTYA[/asin]

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 18, 2014, 02:30:36 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 18, 2014, 02:28:17 PM
Newly purchased, on a rec by Gordo. Looking forward to this one a lot, since I not only like Lubimov, but I really like the sound of a Tangentenflügel!

[asin]B00IRQBTYA[/asin]

8)

Very nice, in my cart for purchase now. Samples sound great.
Thanks for the rec, Gordo and Gurn!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on June 18, 2014, 02:31:32 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 18, 2014, 04:15:13 AM
Thanks, your comments are much appreciated. Especially inasmuch as this was precisely the effect I was going for; aimed at intelligent people who (especially!!) aren't professional musicologists.

I think you would get a great deal of enjoyment from writing a blog. It is not only a great opportunity to justify all you spend on research ( :D ) but personally satisfying too. I strongly encourage you to explore the possibility. :)

8)

I think I'm going to look into it now. I need a good domain like gsligeti.com... :laugh:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 18, 2014, 02:37:16 PM

Quote from: EigenUser on June 18, 2014, 02:31:32 PM
I think I'm going to look into it now. I need a good domain like gsligeti.com... :laugh:

You laugh, but it's true! I got mine at GoDaddy, they are really inexpensive (less than a score!). My blog is on TypePad but I would recommend the freebies at WordPress instead. Just a matter of redirecting the blog to your own domain.

If you Google something about Haydn, and especially if you look at the images page, you will see dozens of images from fjhaydn.com. Everyone who checks out a picture also visits your page and reads what you have (usually). So gsligeti.com is a good idea if it's not already taken! :) (maybe .net is still available!)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on June 18, 2014, 04:18:38 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 18, 2014, 02:37:16 PM
You laugh, but it's true! I got mine at GoDaddy, they are really inexpensive (less than a score!). My blog is on TypePad but I would recommend the freebies at WordPress instead. Just a matter of redirecting the blog to your own domain.

If you Google something about Haydn, and especially if you look at the images page, you will see dozens of images from fjhaydn.com. Everyone who checks out a picture also visits your page and reads what you have (usually). So gsligeti.com is a good idea if it's not already taken! :) (maybe .net is still available!)

8)

WordPress tends to be commenter unfriendly.

I imagine Mirror Image selecting a domain name:
"Shostakovich.com, no Barber, that's it Barber.com. Or Delius. Delius.org. Wait, wait. ThePoulencSpot.com.
No.no! Nothing classical anymore. Genesis.com. Wait, Rush.net. Wait..."

8) >:D :laugh:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 18, 2014, 04:24:29 PM

Quote from: Ken B on June 18, 2014, 04:18:38 PM
WordPress tends to be commenter unfriendly.

I imagine Mirror Image selecting a domain name:
"Shostakovich.com, no Barber, that's it Barber.com. Or Delius. Delius.org. Wait, wait. ThePoulencSpot.com.
No.no! Nothing classical anymore. Genesis.com. Wait, Rush.net. Wait..."

8) >:D :laugh:

:D Yes, it would be a blog for each season, that's for sure! :)

I am not entirely sure that TypePad is commenter friendly either. I have only gotten a few, and that was quite some time ago. I do most of my discussing here, plus people tend to email me quite a lot.

You saw me whining last week about my special characters gone wild? What that turned out to be is I signed in to the beta program and installed Disqus on my blog. That (if you don't know) is a specialized commenting program. What happened is that in my editor the text still appeared perfect, but when I published it, all the special characters took a dump. I uninstalled and poof, back in business. So, I am trying to get something useful there, but apparently trouble lurks around every corner. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 18, 2014, 04:47:07 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 18, 2014, 02:30:36 PM
Very nice, in my cart for purchase now. Samples sound great.
Thanks for the rec, Gordo and Gurn!

I think we will both be pleased, Greg. Somehow Gordo finds the time between World Cups to have all the latest news like that. ¡Qué hombre! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on June 22, 2014, 03:04:00 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 18, 2014, 02:28:17 PM
Newly purchased, on a rec by Gordo. Looking forward to this one a lot, since I not only like Lubimov, but I really like the sound of a Tangentenflügel!

[asin]B00IRQBTYA[/asin]

8)

Oooooohhhh! :o ??? ??? The recording industry sometimes succeeds in surprising us - in a nice way. :) :)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 22, 2014, 05:37:18 AM

Quote from: Que on June 22, 2014, 03:04:00 AM
Oooooohhhh! :o ??? ??? The recording industry sometimes succeeds in surprising us - in a nice way. :) :)

Q

:D That's nearly exactly what I said when Gordo first posted it. More vulgarly of course, but the point remains. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 22, 2014, 08:58:06 AM

1774 was a fine year for symphonies, five for sure and probably one other. I spent some time looking at the first two of those 5, if you are interested you are welcome to join me. :)

The Absentminded man, and... something else ??? (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/06/1774-the-music-part-1-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on June 22, 2014, 09:59:22 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 22, 2014, 08:58:06 AM
1774 was a fine year for symphonies, five for sure and probably one other. I spent some time looking at the first two of those 5, if you are interested you are welcome to join me. :)

The Absentminded man, and... something else ??? (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/06/1774-the-music-part-1-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Nice! Thanks. I have the score for 60 so it was very interesting to read about.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 22, 2014, 10:21:42 AM

Quote from: EigenUser on June 22, 2014, 09:59:22 AM
Nice! Thanks. I have the score for 60 so it was very interesting to read about.

Thanks, Nate, glad you enjoyed it. That reminds me, I need to download that one and look it over. Should have already done, but I don't think like you do. I had enough trouble finding Regnard! :o

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 22, 2014, 12:07:20 PM

I haven't pulled the trigger on the Lubimov yet (it's very close to happening) because I came across the Brautigam, which I remember making a few appearances here in GMG, but I can't decide which one to snatch up first. I am automatically attracted to the fortepiano and might need a full listen to the tangent piano before, perhaps from Spotify. Can anyone help sway me without making me feel like I need both? Because lets be honest, I really do need both. ;D
These will sit nicely with my Seven Words with voices, (Accentus, Harnoncourt) orchestral only (Savall) and by string quartet (Emerson, Mosaiques, Rosamunde).

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51M14X1385L._SY300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HfB3uwI-L._SS300_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 22, 2014, 12:14:56 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 22, 2014, 12:07:20 PM
I haven't pulled the trigger on the Lubimov yet (it's very close to happening) because I came across the Brautigam, which I remember making a few appearances here in GMG, but I can't decide which one to snatch up first. I am automatically attracted to the fortepiano and might need a full listen to the tangent piano before, perhaps from Spotify. Can anyone help sway me without making me feel like I need both? Because lets be honest, I really do need both. ;D
These will sit nicely with my Seven Words with voices, (Accentus, Harnoncourt) orchestral only (Savall) and by string quartet (Emerson, Mosaiques, Rosamunde).

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51M14X1385L._SY300_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51HfB3uwI-L._SS300_.jpg)

Don't look at me; I needed both. If you aren't familiar with a tangent piano, I can hardly think of a better disk to introduce you. I have the Brautigam in the Complete Box, so that one wasn't a choice I had to make. I really think Lubimov's artistry should hit the mark here. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 24, 2014, 07:31:57 AM

Well, I finally got the balance of the Solomons symphonies out of my system. As you all know, Sony/CBS have had these locked up in their vault for years, with no apparent hope of ever releasing them again. To the point, in fact, where they have given Haydn House permission to make transfers from the LP's of the remaining 9 disks. If you have the ones called Vol. 7 & 9, plus the single which has 45 & 48, then those 6 disks combined with these 9 total the complete efforts of this band. This was the very first PI version, and IMO still ranks high compared to some fine later efforts.

Haydn House Solomons page (http://haydnhouse.com/Derek_Solomons_Haydn_Symphonies_Series.htm).

They have put their own artwork on the panels, and there are no liner notes, although if there is anything you want to know about these works it isn't hard to find. I have had the downloads for several years now, I'm delighted to finally have the CD's on the way! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 24, 2014, 07:54:43 AM

Thanks for the Solomon's posting, Gurn. I do have Vol 7 and the 45/48 single disc, all fantastic PI performances. I see a few symphonies listed that I would love to hear from them.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 24, 2014, 08:37:21 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 24, 2014, 07:54:43 AM
Thanks for the Solomon's posting, Gurn. I do have Vol 7 and the 45/48 single disc, all fantastic PI performances. I see a few symphonies listed that I would love to hear from them.

You're welcome, Greg. I actually called them a while back to verify that if I had the disks I have, and I got theirs, I would have the entire output. So that's good. Yep, they are fine performances, and now that I have the disks, I can use them as a fair alternative in my recommendations, something I never do with downloads. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Phrygian on June 24, 2014, 02:34:31 PM

What do you think of Haydn's Piano Trios? Some people have described these as "accompanied piano sonatas" but I think this is harsh. For me, these works are charming and full of invention.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on June 24, 2014, 02:50:40 PM

Quote from: Phrygian on June 24, 2014, 02:34:31 PM
What do you think of Haydn's Piano Trios? Some people have described these as "accompanied piano sonatas" but I think this is harsh. For me, these works are charming and full of invention.

I doubt you will get any disagreement on that in this thread.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 24, 2014, 02:52:59 PM

Quote from: Phrygian on June 24, 2014, 02:34:31 PM
What do you think of Haydn's Piano Trios? Some people have described these as "accompanied piano sonatas" but I think this is harsh. For me, these works are charming and full of invention.

Hi, Phrygian, welcome to The Haus!

I love Haydn's keyboard trios. I think they are some of the most interesting chamber music to come out of that period of history. Don't feel badly about the 'sonatas with the accompaniment of violin & cello'; this is what Haydn called them too, and in fact, this is what Mozart's were. At that point in time, the 19th century standards for what chamber music consisted in hadn't been defined yet. Thus the idea that these couldn't be real chamber music because there was doubling of the voices is nothing more than typical 19th century pompous bull feces.

Haydn had composed many trios in the 1750's & early 1760's, mainly for entertainment for his patrons and as teaching aids for his students. When he took them up again at the urging of his publisher, Artaria, in the early 1780's, he soon discovered that the medium was perfect for two things; letting him explore musical ideas which weren't suitable for symphonies or even quartets, and they sold like crazy to the robust amateur market both in Vienna, and in Paris, London and throughout Europe. His publishers loved them!

If you listen to what are essentially the last 15 or 20 of them, you will hear some of the most wonderful music he wrote. I have many versions of them and I play them very frequently and never get tired of them.

That's what I think of them, anyway... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Phrygian on June 24, 2014, 07:49:57 PM

Thank you for that!! I, too, think they're charming but I haven't heard all of them by any means.

I visited Haydnhaus in Gumpfendorf in Vienna when I was living there is 2011. It was a very moving experience and he really did live a comfortable lifestyle after his tenure at Eisenstadt was finished.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on June 25, 2014, 12:51:27 AM

Far be it from me to criticize papa, but I was listening to Haydn 8 yesterday and I think that it contains one of my problems with the classical era -- it is too polite. The last movement is "La Tempesta". That was a storm?? I mean, I guess that this is before global warming. They must have had some very nice days.

I'm not asking for ear-splitting dissonance, but at least put it in a minor key! Vivaldi's storm in his summer from "The Four Seasons" a great example, I think. It would be interesting to know what Haydn would have done with this during the "Sturm und Drang" era.

I know that these (6, 7, 8) were some of the first to be written during Haydn's tenure at Esterhazy, so perhaps he didn't want to scare them off by giving them something too dark?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 25, 2014, 03:46:23 AM

Well, viewed from another angle . . . what is harsh about accompanied piano sonatas? I don't think it unfair to observe either (a) that the genre [did not emerge] "perfect" (edit) from the start, or (b) that for many of the trios, the cello does little more than double the left hand. That said, those observations are merely factual, and do not remark on the quality and character of the composition.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 25, 2014, 03:47:24 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 24, 2014, 02:52:59 PM
Hi, Phrygian, welcome to The Haus!

I love Haydn's keyboard trios. I think they are some of the most interesting chamber music to come out of that period of history. Don't feel badly about the 'sonatas with the accompaniment of violin & cello'; this is what Haydn called them too, and in fact, this is what Mozart's were. At that point in time, the 19th century standards for what chamber music consisted in hadn't been defined yet. Thus the idea that these couldn't be real chamber music because there was doubling of the voices is nothing more than typical 19th century pompous bull feces.

Haydn had composed many trios in the 1750's & early 1760's, mainly for entertainment for his patrons and as teaching aids for his students. When he took them up again at the urging of his publisher, Artaria, in the early 1780's, he soon discovered that the medium was perfect for two things; letting him explore musical ideas which weren't suitable for symphonies or even quartets, and they sold like crazy to the robust amateur market both in Vienna, and in Paris, London and throughout Europe. His publishers loved them!

If you listen to what are essentially the last 15 or 20 of them, you will hear some of the most wonderful music he wrote. I have many versions of them and I play them very frequently and never get tired of them.

That's what I think of them, anyway... :)

8)

Leave it to Gurn, I always say . . . .

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 25, 2014, 04:19:42 AM

Quote from: Phrygian on June 24, 2014, 07:49:57 PM
Thank you for that!! I, too, think they're charming but I haven't heard all of them by any means.

I visited Haydnhaus in Gumpfendorf in Vienna when I was living there is 2011. It was a very moving experience and he really did live a comfortable lifestyle after his tenure at Eisenstadt was finished.

You're welcome. Come again often. :)

I would love to visit Gumpendorf, don't know as I will ever make it to Vienna, but I'll damn sure try.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 25, 2014, 04:21:57 AM

Quote from: EigenUser on June 25, 2014, 12:51:27 AM
Far be it from me to criticize papa, but I was listening to Haydn 8 yesterday and I think that it contains one of my problems with the classical era -- it is too polite. The last movement is "La Tempesta". That was a storm?? I mean, I guess that this is before global warming. They must have had some very nice days.

I'm not asking for ear-splitting dissonance, but at least put it in a minor key! Vivaldi's storm in his summer from "The Four Seasons" a great example, I think. It would be interesting to know what Haydn would have done with this during the "Sturm und Drang" era.

I know that these (6, 7, 8) were some of the first to be written during Haydn's tenure at Esterhazy, so perhaps he didn't want to scare them off by giving them something too dark?

:D Well, it was just a passing afternoon shower, I guess. Probably a teapot involved. :) I do like Vivaldi's effort too, I've been a consistent advocate of The Four Seasons here over the years just because of shining little moments like that. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 25, 2014, 04:27:43 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 25, 2014, 03:46:23 AM
Well, viewed from another angle . . . what is harsh about accompanied piano sonatas? I don't think it unfair to observe either (a) that the genre [did not emerge] "perfect" (edit) from the start, or (b) that for many of the trios, the cello does little more than double the left hand. That said, those observations are merely factual, and do not remark on the quality and character of the composition.

No, but they would like to do that last. BTW, the assertion that the cello only doubles the piano's left hand (I know you are merely repeating it, not stating it as fact) was laid to rest back in the 1930's when Tovey received and published a letter from an anal retentive fan who counted the notes in all the trios of Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven and proved that Haydn had the least amount of doubling of those three composers. I'll get you a citation on it if you will. But here we are, nearly 85 years later, and people still say that like it was true (see parenthetical statement above). :)

Quote from: karlhenning on June 25, 2014, 03:47:24 AM
Leave it to Gurn, I always say . . . .

8)

Indeed. That wasn't too bad, OTTOMH. >:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 25, 2014, 04:45:33 AM

As ever, thanks, O Gurn!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 25, 2014, 04:50:41 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 25, 2014, 04:45:33 AM
As ever, thanks, O Gurn!

It is, as always, my distinct pleasure, Dr. H. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Phrygian on June 25, 2014, 10:17:43 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 25, 2014, 04:19:42 AM
You're welcome. Come again often. :)

I would love to visit Gumpendorf, don't know as I will ever make it to Vienna, but I'll damn sure try.

8)

I'm returning in January for another 12 month stay, but visiting the rest of Europe and Scandinavia for a couple of months (again). Papa's house contains Brahms's piano, as well as a stunning oil painting of Johannes.

For some reason, the Viennese are none too eager to tell people where their historic composer residences are. One has to sharpen the super-sleuthing skills and ask lots of questions.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2014, 06:23:21 AM

Quote from: Phrygian on June 25, 2014, 10:17:43 PM
I'm returning in January for another 12 month stay, but visiting the rest of Europe and Scandinavia for a couple of months (again). Papa's house contains Brahms's piano, as well as a stunning oil painting of Johannes.

For some reason, the Viennese are none too eager to tell people where their historic composer residences are. One has to sharpen the super-sleuthing skills and ask lots of questions.

I'm jealous! Hope you have an enjoyable visit. We have a member here who lives in Vienna and loves nothing more than to take people on a tour of the musical sights. She is a South California lady, how she ended up in Vienna... ? And you know, of course, that Brahms was a huge fan of Haydn. So it is appropriate to see hi at Gumpendorf. I'm surprised he didn't buy it when he lived in Vienna. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2014, 06:29:47 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 18, 2014, 02:28:17 PM
Newly purchased, on a rec by Gordo. Looking forward to this one a lot, since I not only like Lubimov, but I really like the sound of a Tangentenflügel!

[asin]B00IRQBTYA[/asin]

8)

This finally arrived yesterday, I didn't waste any time putting it on the player. As I suspected, the Tangentenflügel was a perfect complement for this music. Lubimov add some ornaments and flourishes which he says come from the orchestral part of the oratorio version, and they sound perfectly appropriate here. I could very well move this one into the slot reserved in the 1787 folder for this piece. Brautigam can always find a different home for himself. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on June 27, 2014, 06:51:05 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2014, 06:29:47 AM
This finally arrived yesterday, I didn't waste any time putting it on the player. As I suspected, the Tangentenflügel was a perfect complement for this music. Lubimov add some ornaments and flourishes which he says come from the orchestral part of the oratorio version, and they sound perfectly appropriate here. I could very well move this one into the slot reserved in the 1787 folder for this piece. Brautigam can always find a different home for himself. :)

8)

It's as if you wrote this post just for me! :D
Actually, I saw your twitter post last night and decided then that the Lubimov is the one to get as well. So in the shopping cart it goes! Thanks!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2014, 06:59:21 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on June 27, 2014, 06:51:05 AM
It's as if you wrote this post just for me! :D
Actually, I saw your twitter post last night and decided then that the Lubimov is the one to get as well. So in the shopping cart it goes! Thanks!

Ah yes, that one was written in the throes of passion while it was still playing. It even inspired a Hay-ku... :) I think you'll be very pleased with this, Greg.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 27, 2014, 10:24:19 AM

:-)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on June 27, 2014, 10:26:26 AM

If anyone is curious about whether the tone of the tangent piano (alt. name suggestions: Pianichord and clavichiano 8)) matches their taste, a YouTube user was kind enough to upload the second sonata. This may give you a better feel for the instrument than 30 second samples: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKci9AKHUsU

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2014, 10:37:50 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on June 27, 2014, 10:26:26 AM
If anyone is curious about whether the tone of the tangent piano (alt. name suggestions: Pianichord and clavichiano 8)), a YouTube user was kind enough to upload the second sonata. This may give you a better feel for the instrument than 30 second samples: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKci9AKHUsU

Thanks for that, G.Dude! That is a very nice quality upload too. This particular instrument is more resonant and fuller sounding than any which I have previously experienced (mostly Spanyi playing CPE Bach). :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on June 27, 2014, 12:41:26 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2014, 10:37:50 AM
Thanks for that, G.Dude! That is a very nice quality upload too. This particular instrument is more resonant and fuller sounding than any which I have previously experienced (mostly Spanyi playing CPE Bach). :)

8)

I'm not familiar with the mechanics behind a tangent piano, but it's fascinating to me to listen to that movement because it sounds like an almost 50/50 fusion of a fortepiano and a clavichord.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 29, 2014, 08:00:07 AM

Beyond Symphony #54 and the strange and wonderful Il distratto symphony, Haydn wrote a trilogy of 'serious' symphonies too, which I number among my favorites. I've been studying about them lately, a great opportunity to listen to them a lot myself! If you are so inclined, here is the result of my studies.

The Symphonic Trio of 1774 (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/06/1774-the-music-part-2-.html)

Hope it makes you want to listen to them! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 30, 2014, 06:19:52 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 29, 2014, 08:00:07 AM
Beyond Symphony #54 and the strange and wonderful Il distratto symphony, Haydn wrote a trilogy of 'serious' symphonies too, which I number among my favorites. I've been studying about them lately, a great opportunity to listen to them a lot myself! If you are so inclined, here is the result of my studies.

The Symphonic Trio of 1774 (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/06/1774-the-music-part-2-.html)

Hope it makes you want to listen to them! :)

8)

A good read as always, Gurn...and inspiring: listening to 56 now.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 30, 2014, 06:42:20 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 30, 2014, 06:19:52 AM
A good read as always, Gurn...and inspiring: listening to 56 now.

Sarge

Thanks, Sarge. I truly appreciate your support. :)

Plus, I'm jealous, I'm listening to my air conditioner...

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 30, 2014, 06:53:09 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 30, 2014, 06:42:20 AM
Thanks, Sarge. I truly appreciate your support. :)

Plus, I'm jealous, I'm listening to my air conditioner...

8)

I took your blog's advice for once ;) and put on Hogwood. Wow...a sensational performance.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 30, 2014, 06:58:31 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 30, 2014, 06:42:20 AM
Thanks, Sarge. I truly appreciate your support. :)

Plus, I'm jealous, I'm listening to my air conditioner...

8)

Heck, they can hear your air conditioner in Middlebury, Connecticut 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 30, 2014, 07:04:38 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 30, 2014, 06:53:09 AM
I took your blog's advice for once ;) and put on Hogwood. Wow...a sensational performance.

Sarge

:) Yes, they use the real C alto horns, and mixed with the trumpets they really kick ass. I don't know if that effect can be duplicated with modern horns, the players would need to be exceptional! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 30, 2014, 07:05:07 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 30, 2014, 06:58:31 AM
Heck, they can hear your air conditioner in Middlebury, Connecticut 8)

You don't know how right you are! :(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 30, 2014, 10:08:56 AM

". . . stretches of the fervid Romantic imaginations": very nice!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 30, 2014, 10:12:16 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 30, 2014, 10:08:56 AM
". . . stretches of the fervid Romantic imaginations": very nice!

I love sticking it to the Romantics; pompous asses all! >:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on June 30, 2014, 03:28:57 PM

Well, let's give it a new nickname then. How about "Drunk Fuchs?"

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 30, 2014, 03:47:32 PM

Quote from: Pat B on June 30, 2014, 03:28:57 PM
Well, let's give it a new nickname then. How about "Drunk Fuchs?"

Oh no! Not another nickname! :o :o

:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on June 30, 2014, 09:45:55 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 30, 2014, 06:53:09 AM
I took your blog's advice for once ;) and put on Hogwood. Wow...a sensational performance.

I listened to the Solomons recording of 56. Another sensational performance.

Title: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Geo Dude on June 30, 2014, 10:35:54 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 30, 2014, 06:42:20 AM

Plus, I'm jealous, I'm listening to my air conditioner...

8)

Believe me, that's better than NOT listening to your air conditioner! 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 01, 2014, 04:13:26 AM

Quote from: Old Listener on June 30, 2014, 09:45:55 PM
I listened to the Solomons recording of 56. Another sensational performance.

OL,

You bet! Those together are the only two PI performances, and it is a tossup for me between that and AAM. An abundance of riches! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 01, 2014, 04:14:52 AM

Quote from: Geo Dude on June 30, 2014, 10:35:54 PM
Believe me, that's better than NOT listening to your air conditioner! 8)

Been there, too. We are having the coolest, wettest summer in living memory, but all things are relative; the a/c stays! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on July 01, 2014, 05:45:14 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 01, 2014, 04:14:52 AM
Been there, too. We are having the coolest, wettest summer in living memory, but all things are relative; the a/c stays! :)

8)

A couple of days ago my parents in West Texas were complaining about 66% relative humidity. To add to the craziness, here in South Carolina, the humidity was 12%!! :o While I enjoyed dry weather that day, they enjoyed mugginess more typical of the Carolinas.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 01, 2014, 05:59:20 AM

Quote from: DavidW on July 01, 2014, 05:45:14 AM
A couple of days ago my parents in West Texas were complaining about 66% relative humidity. To add to the craziness, here in South Carolina, the humidity was 12%!! :o While I enjoyed dry weather that day, they enjoyed mugginess more typical of the Carolinas.

Bizarreness in every direction

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on July 01, 2014, 06:15:29 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 01, 2014, 05:59:20 AM
Bizarreness in every direction

8)

It's monsoon season in Manitoba at the moment. Not joking (but kind of). We are not supposed to have monsoons, but Manitoba has been hit by constant heavy rains and high winds for the past week.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 01, 2014, 06:17:49 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 01, 2014, 05:59:20 AM
Bizarreness in every direction

Quote from: ChamberNut on July 01, 2014, 06:15:29 AM
It's monsoon season in Manitoba at the moment. Not joking (but kind of). We are not supposed to have monsoons, but Manitoba has been hit by constant heavy rains and high winds for the past week.

Well, OK, that's a direction I hadn't anticipated... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 02, 2014, 06:39:10 PM

August 12th can't get here fast enough ;D....

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51lyFpoxeKL._SS350_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 05, 2014, 01:09:34 PM

Haydn wrote more than those five symphonies in 1774, he also had a go at a few pieces of more private music, and also some intended to go public, however discreetly that may have needed to be done. I've been looking into that, check it out here:

Some less public music of 1774 (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/07/1774-the-music-part-3-.html)

I'll enjoy discussing it with you!

Thanks for reading,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 06, 2014, 07:52:57 AM

I don't know where to post this where it would reach more of my potential audience than here: if you try to read my blog and you are unable to access it using either the link I post (like above) or the link in my signature, please post a note to me either here or in a PM. I know now of three people who were unable to link up, or who had a hard time linking up, and I have the blog provider working on it. But the more data the better. Please also include what OS and browser you use.

Thanks,
GB 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 06, 2014, 09:08:30 AM

I like oratorios, and I know some of you here do too. In 1774, Haydn wrote a classic Italian oratorio called The Return of Tobias. I decided to take a look at the genre in general and the work in particular; here is what I discovered.

Yes, I'm sure it was an angel (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/07/1774-the-music-part-4-.html)

Glad to discuss, thanks for checking it out.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 06, 2014, 05:27:28 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 06, 2014, 09:08:30 AM
I like oratorios, and I know some of you here do too. In 1774, Haydn wrote a classic Italian oratorio called The Return of Tobias. I decided to take a look at the genre in general and the work in particular; here is what I discovered.

Yes, I'm sure it was an angel (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/07/1774-the-music-part-4-.html)

Glad to discuss, thanks for checking it out.

8)

You have written some lovely essays for 1774, Gurn. As usual, all of them full of information, but without trace of heaviness or, for the case, oversimplification. I especially loved the last one (I guess because of the genre, so frequently overlooked) and I have decided to give a serious listen to Il ritorno di Tobia this week, a superb rendition in the Naxos version, as far as I recall. After reading your last essay, I think your suggestion is quite clear: we need rethink the importance of Haydn's vocal music as a part of his complete output, even if Haydn was, as you rightly point out, more a conservative in these genres.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on July 06, 2014, 07:48:14 PM

Very good judgment on your part to pick the one recording I have. And I agree it is a good time one. What recordings exist beyond the Naxos?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 06, 2014, 08:17:59 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 06, 2014, 07:48:14 PM
Very good judgment on your part to pick the one recording I have. And I agree it is a good time one. What recordings exist beyond the Naxos?

:)

As a matter of fact, there is not a great number of versions to choose.

I own the Naxos set and also the set included in the Brilliant Classics big box. The latter is a good MI version, originally released on Hungaroton.

There is also the Dorati version, but I don't have that one.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 07, 2014, 04:17:07 AM

Quote from: Gordo on July 06, 2014, 05:27:28 PM
You have written some lovely essays for 1774, Gurn. As usual, all of them full of information, but without trace of heaviness or, for the case, oversimplification. I especially loved the last one (I guess because of the genre, so frequently overlooked) and I have decided to give a serious listen to Il ritorno di Tobia this week, a superb rendition in the Naxos version, as far as I recall. After reading your last essay, I think your suggestion is quite clear: we need rethink the importance of Haydn's vocal music as a part of his complete output, even if Haydn was, as you rightly point out, more a conservative in these genres.

Thank you so much, Gordo. I'm glad you liked the oratorio essay; it has been stewing in the background while I wrote the others, and my one fear was that 'yes, all well and good, but I'm not going to listen to an oratorio!. :) I just found the whole story quite interesting.

It's true, I think, Haydn was conservative in his vocal settings, at least at that point in time. It was a respectful conservatism, I think, since he certainly has already proved by 1774 that he can be as outré as anyone!

Thanks for your reply,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 07, 2014, 04:20:20 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 06, 2014, 07:48:14 PM
Very good judgment on your part to pick the one recording I have. And I agree it is a good time one. What recordings exist beyond the Naxos?

Jeffrey,
I think the Naxos recording was a godsend when it was released in 2009 (or so). I also have the Big Box recording and it is quite competent, no doubt, although it doesn't have the warmth of the Spering set. I wasn't aware that Dorati had done one, which Gordo reports. That's interesting, his opera recordings are my fallback when I can't find a PI recording, and they are more than adequate. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 07, 2014, 04:29:14 AM

Happy Monday, O Gurn!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 07, 2014, 04:30:50 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 07, 2014, 04:29:14 AM
Happy Monday, O Gurn!

Back at'cha, Karl!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 07, 2014, 05:15:09 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 07, 2014, 04:20:20 AM
Jeffrey,
I think the Naxos recording was a godsend when it was released in 2009 (or so). I also have the Big Box recording and it is quite competent, no doubt, although it doesn't have the warmth of the Spering set. I wasn't aware that Dorati had done one, which Gordo reports. That's interesting, his opera recordings are my fallback when I can't find a PI recording, and they are more than adequate. :)

8)

The specifics are:

Antal Dorati (dir.), Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, Brighton Festival Chorus. Label: Decca Stereo 591027 (1979). It's also available on CD:

http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-ritorno-Hendricks-Zoghby-Langridge/dp/B001R8ZE4G/ref=pd_sim_sbs_m_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=0MQQ2D4AC0B3BEMRD7BS

http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Il-Ritorno-Tobia-Joseph/dp/B001PBQLG0

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51m%2BM0iL4FL.jpg)

Cover: Detail from "Tobias and the Archangel Raphael returning with the fish" by Adam Elsheimer (c. 1574/78-1610/20), The National Gallery, London.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 07, 2014, 05:51:15 AM

I thought to search that Dorati on YouTube, but I found something even more attractive to me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAflpM7DC-4

Unfortunately, poor sound quality.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 07, 2014, 06:07:54 PM

Quote from: Gordo on July 07, 2014, 05:15:09 AM
The specifics are:

Antal Dorati (dir.), Royal Philharmonic Orchestra, Brighton Festival Chorus. Label: Decca Stereo 591027 (1979). It's also available on CD:

http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-ritorno-Hendricks-Zoghby-Langridge/dp/B001R8ZE4G/ref=pd_sim_sbs_m_1?ie=UTF8&refRID=0MQQ2D4AC0B3BEMRD7BS

http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Il-Ritorno-Tobia-Joseph/dp/B001PBQLG0

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51m%2BM0iL4FL.jpg)

Cover: Detail from "Tobias and the Archangel Raphael returning with the fish" by Adam Elsheimer (c. 1574/78-1610/20), The National Gallery, London.

hanks for that research work, Gordo. I love the painting on the cover, I'm hunting for a nice copy to download now. I left the fish out of the story because I couldn't tell how much Haydn dwelt on it, but for those who don't know the story, Raphael showed Tobias how to make a medicine from the innards of the fish which he then used to cure Tobit's blindness. I'm thinking he didn't drag it in the dirt all the way back to Nineveh, but hey, you never know. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on July 07, 2014, 10:46:40 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 07, 2014, 06:07:54 PM
[T]hanks for that research work, Gordo. I love the painting on the cover, I'm hunting for a nice copy to download now.

You didn't say if you'd found one already, Gurn (http://www.sightswithin.com/Adam.Elsheimer/Archangel_Raphael_and_Tobias_%252F_Tobias_and_the_Angel,_copy_after_the_lost_Elsheimer's_painting/Alternative_version.jpg). :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 08, 2014, 04:22:26 AM

Quote from: North Star on July 07, 2014, 10:46:40 PM
You didn't say if you'd found one already, Gurn (http://www.sightswithin.com/Adam.Elsheimer/Archangel_Raphael_and_Tobias_%252F_Tobias_and_the_Angel,_copy_after_the_lost_Elsheimer's_painting/Alternative_version.jpg). :)

Well, actually I had, but it was nowhere near as nice as your! Thanks, :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 08, 2014, 05:11:44 PM

A new disk today, hadn't ever heard of this guy before, delighted to find this though:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardDupouy_zpsf3e8beee.jpg)

Mathieu Dupouy plays the Hob 17:6 variations in f minor, along with the last three sonatas and the 'Gott erhalte Kaiser Franz' variations, so, the last 5 works for solo piano. Playing is very nice, more articulated than legato, nicely mic'ed so the sound is close but not overwhelming. He is playing a really nice sounding 1807 pianoforte by Jakob Weimes tuned to two different temperaments in different works, Kirnberger & Lambert. I'm just finishing my first listen, very pleased so far. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 08, 2014, 05:13:57 PM

Oh, forgot, a link....

[asin]B008O5PO36[/asin]

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 10, 2014, 06:55:34 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 08, 2014, 05:13:57 PM
Oh, forgot, a link....

[asin]B008O5PO36[/asin]

8)

BTW, Gurn, that number "8" on the cover is quite intriguing. Do you know if he is planning a complete traversal through the keyboard music?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 10, 2014, 07:03:44 AM

Quote from: Gordo on July 10, 2014, 06:55:34 AM
BTW, Gurn, that number "8" on the cover is quite intriguing. Do you know if he is planning a complete traversal through the keyboard music?

No, I don't think so. From what it appears, the label is putting out a series of disks of different composers and genres, #3 was a Telemann disk, IIRC, and not even solo keyboard. :o They don't talk about it, just have some pictures inside the back cover.

I wouldn't mind if he DID do more Haydn, I quite enjoyed his style and the sound of his instrument. :)

8)

[asin]B002P9KAPO[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 10, 2014, 07:09:32 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 10, 2014, 07:03:44 AM
No, I don't think so. From what it appears, the label is putting out a series of disks of different composers and genres, #3 was a Telemann disk, IIRC, and not even solo keyboard. :o They don't talk about it, just have some pictures inside the back cover.

I wouldn't mind if he DID do more Haydn, I quite enjoyed his style and the sound of his instrument. :)

8)

[asin]B002P9KAPO[/asin]

I see; it's crystal clear now.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 12, 2014, 07:06:09 PM

1775 was the last year of what is called 'The Early Esterházy Years', and the doings were Fin de siècle in many ways. I've been finding out a few things, if you're interested, have a look. I'd be delighted to chat about it. :)

The year of the last big party (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/07/1775-the-year-of-the-last-big-party-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 15, 2014, 06:08:12 PM

You know I'm shamelessly vocal about certain things. Here is a long-suppressed rant which bubbled over while researching the symphonies of 1775. I'd enjoy discussing with you, have a read! :)

Why, that's just impure! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/07/1775-the-music-part-1.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on July 15, 2014, 06:15:21 PM

I would gander that the reused music was stuff Papa thought was especially good, so he made an effort to keep it languishing in oblivion. Which was shrewd when considering for instance the relative obscurity of the theatrical music compared to the symphonies.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 15, 2014, 06:20:59 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 15, 2014, 06:15:21 PM
I would gander that the reused music was stuff Papa thought was especially good, so he made an effort to keep it languishing in oblivion. Which was shrewd when considering for instance the relative obscurity of the theatrical music compared to the symphonies.

Oh yes, the offending member(s) which should have been cast out are postulated as overtures and/or incidental music for marionette operas or dramatic plays. If in fact they are theatrical at all. Maybe they merely sound theatrical! *gasp* :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 16, 2014, 03:26:07 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 15, 2014, 06:08:12 PM
You know I'm shamelessly vocal about certain things. Here is a long-suppressed rant which bubbled over while researching the symphonies of 1775. I'd enjoy discussing with you, have a read! :)

Why, that's just impure! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/07/1775-the-music-part-1.html)

Thanks,
8)

A righteous rant, O Gurn.

Quote from: Haydn SeekI believe once one has taken it upon himself to illuminate some cultural phenomenon for the rest of society, it is not then necessarily incumbent upon the writer to go further and to pass artistic verdicts which are, by their placement within books of fact, given the aura of being fact themselves. I dearly resent this practice, and so should you. It should be up to you to decide whether this or that work is something you wish to listen to, and even enjoy.

That was exactly my quarrel with Harlow Robinson in his bio of Prokofiev . . . but I digress . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 16, 2014, 04:10:50 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 16, 2014, 03:26:07 AM
A righteous rant, O Gurn.

That was exactly my quarrel with Harlow Robinson in his bio of Prokofiev . . . but I digress . . . .

No, you don't actually digress, that is exactly the point. Robinson was Prok.'s biographer, not the arbiter of his art, correct? >:( :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 16, 2014, 04:13:10 AM

Correct!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 16, 2014, 05:51:11 PM

I think sometimes Haydn liked to try things out, and if he liked them he would stash them away for future use. Sometimes it would be almost 20 years in the future, but suddenly, there it would be again, that great idea. Something like this happened in 1775, I wrote about it if you want to check it out.

This is only a test, don't adjust your set... (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/07/1775-the-music-part-2-.html)

Thanks for reading,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on July 16, 2014, 06:49:09 PM

If 101 is the Clock then perhaps 68 is the Watch.
And 67 is the Backwards or Reversed.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 16, 2014, 06:52:52 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 16, 2014, 06:49:09 PM
If 101 is the Clock then perhaps 68 is the Watch.
And 67 is the Backwards or Reversed.

:) You'll need to get with Sarge and get some album covers made... >:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on July 17, 2014, 03:32:29 AM

Very interesting, thanks!

From your essay:

Quote
If you want to jump the rails of time a little bit, go on to 1789 and listen to Symphony 92, the Oxford Symphony. Note the superlative minuet, which, in the trio, misplaces the accents in relation to the bar line. The result is a totally eccentric and engaging joke which you can't quite tap your toe to! Now, listen to the trio of our present #68 and see where this idea was born. Good ideas lived and developed in his head and came out later, which we shall see more of very soon.

He does exactly this in the trio of 88 as well. It, too, has harmonies based off of parallel fifths, which makes it sound like folk-Bagpipes -- almost Bartokian!

I love this kind of musical trickery. Even today, John Adams does this in his "Short Ride in a Fast Machine" (not a masterpiece, but a downright fun four minutes) where most of the piece has a woodblock beating time. Every so often, though, he discreetly skips a beat and I end up tapping my foot to the off-beat!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 17, 2014, 04:21:08 AM

Quote from: EigenUser on July 17, 2014, 03:32:29 AM
Very interesting, thanks!

From your essay:He does exactly this in the trio of 88 as well. It, too, has harmonies based off of parallel fifths, which makes it sound like folk-Bagpipes -- almost Bartokian!

I love this kind of musical trickery. Even today, John Adams does this in his "Short Ride in a Fast Machine" (not a masterpiece, but a downright fun four minutes) where most of the piece has a woodblock beating time. Every so often, though, he discreetly skips a beat and I end up tapping my foot to the off-beat!

I love it too. I am in that category of listeners that Mozart wrote to his father: 'they will love it and not really know why'. But anytime he gets the rhythm all displaced like that, I find it secretly satisfying. Must be my own eccentricity coming forward. The bagpipe thing is something he used his entire career, usually to accompany some little folk-type tune or to highlight some oddity. That trio is OTT! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 18, 2014, 09:03:48 AM

Hickox on Chandos recordings of the Masses, what's the Haus' take?

I just ordered their Nelson Mass disc, what I sampled sounded nice. I don't have a lot of exposure to the masses, other than Pinnock's Nelson, and two Stabat Mater discs.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 18, 2014, 10:15:17 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 18, 2014, 09:03:48 AM
Hickox on Chandos recordings of the Masses, what's the Haus' take?

I just ordered their Nelson Mass disc, what I sampled sounded nice. I don't have a lot of exposure to the masses, other than Pinnock's Nelson, and two Stabat Mater discs.

I like them, although I think they seem a bit too large for some of the earlier masses. I have heard from some others (they'll no doubt tell you) that they don't like the English style choral work, but I don't really know enough about choral work to tell anything. Try their late masses, they are well suited for those larger works, IMHO. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 18, 2014, 10:58:20 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 18, 2014, 10:15:17 AM
I like them, although I think they seem a bit too large for some of the earlier masses. I have heard from some others (they'll no doubt tell you) that they don't like the English style choral work, but I don't really know enough about choral work to tell anything. Try their late masses, they are well suited for those larger works, IMHO. :)

8)

Is Nelson considered a late mass?

Also I see that Weil uses a boys choir for Taukenmesse, is that correct? And if so, how does that sound?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 18, 2014, 11:06:43 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 18, 2014, 10:58:20 AM
Is Nelson considered a late mass?

Also I see that Weil uses a boys choir for Taukenmesse, is that correct? And if so, how does that sound?

Copying-&-pasting from Wikipedia . . . .

Quote•No. 9 in B flat major: 'Missa sancti Bernardi von Offida', also known as the 'Heiligmesse' (H. 22/10) (1796)
•No. 10 in C major: 'Missa in tempore belli' ('Mass in Time of War'), also known as the 'Paukenmesse' ('Kettledrum Mass') (H. 22/9) (1796)
•No. 11 in D minor: 'Missa in Angustiis' ('Mass in Troubled Times'), also known as the 'Nelson Mass' (H. 22/11) (1798)
•No. 12 in B flat major: 'Theresienmesse' (named for the Maria Theresa of the Two Sicilies) (H. 22/12) (1799)
•No. 13 in B flat major: 'Schöpfungsmesse' ('Creation Mass') (H. 22/13) (1801)
•No. 14 in B flat major: 'Harmoniemesse' ('Wind-band Mass') (H. 22/14) (1802).

If these dates are to be trusted (and our Gurn will advise us), the earliest of these (№ 9) is 14 years later than № 8 (the Missa Cellensis) of 1782.

The Weil Masses are great! There, I said it! (I do enjoy Lenny in the Masses, too, be it noted.)

Boy trebles have a more tranquil tone, they don't as a rule sound as if they are working to reach certain notes. It's a great sound for Stravinsky, too.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 18, 2014, 11:12:04 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 18, 2014, 10:58:20 AM
Is Nelson considered a late mass?

Also I see that Weil uses a boys choir for Paukenmesse, is that correct? And if so, how does that sound?

Yes, absolutely. The last 6, and that's one of them.

They say boys' choirs are an acquired taste. If so, then I acquired it my first go'round, because I like them a lot. Haydn got his start as a choir boy at 9 in Vienna, thanks to George Reutter. It sounds ... firmer (?) than women, more solid, less warbling. Austrians didn't use women at all until late 18th century, even non-castrato's sang soprano and alto, a good solid falsetto. Check out this disk:

[asin]B000001S31[/asin]

which uses only men, and it is damn good too! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 18, 2014, 11:13:38 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 18, 2014, 11:06:43 AM
Copying-&-pasting from Wikipedia . . . .

If these dates are to be trusted (and our Gurn will advise us), the earliest of these (№ 9) is 14 years later than № 8 (the Missa Cellensis) of 1782.

The Weil Masses are great! There, I said it! (I do enjoy Lenny in the Masses, too, be it noted.)

Boy trebles have a more tranquil tone, they don't as a rule sound as if they are working to reach certain notes. It's a great sound for Stravinsky, too.

Cross-posted! Anyway, yes, you are right on there, including your more cogent description of boys' voices. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 18, 2014, 04:14:05 PM

Listening to the Theresienmesse for the first time, for a Haydn fan I'm a late bloomer on the masses, I know.
BUT, got to the Agnus Dei and heard a familiar tune right away. Is this only a coincidence that is sounds like a direct quote from the opening of Mozart's 25th Symphony?

This is not the recording I was listening to, but the best one I could find to post. Listen to the opening and then again at 1:24...

http://www.youtube.com/v/z4EFGFnViUQ

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 18, 2014, 05:15:56 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 18, 2014, 04:14:05 PM
Listening to the Theresienmesse for the first time, for a Haydn fan I'm a late bloomer on the masses, I know.
BUT, got to the Agnus Dei and heard a familiar tune right away. Is this only a coincidence that is sounds like a direct quote from the opening of Mozart's 25th Symphony?

This is not the recording I was listening to, but the best one I could find to post. Listen to the opening and then again at 1:24...

It uses a falling motive like the opening to the Little g minor, then moves on to a fast figure which is similar, before moving on. So there is an element of similarity. It is not unusual after Mozart's death, which affected Haydn severely, for him to use quotations from some Mozart works in a tributary sort of way. In this case, though, that symphony will have been virtually unknown to Vienna or Eisenstadt (the intended audience), and possibly even unknown to Haydn himself, since of the works which Mozart asked Leopold for performance scores, this wasn't one (that's documented). It rather reminds me of the case of the overture to Bastien and Bastienne, which overture commences with the same introduction as Beethoven's 3rd Symphony. It is very unlikely that Mozart ever heard Eroica... ;) :D

So, I think it is a commonality of language.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on July 18, 2014, 07:44:20 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 18, 2014, 09:03:48 AM
Hickox on Chandos recordings of the Masses, what's the Haus' take?

I just ordered their Nelson Mass disc, what I sampled sounded nice. I don't have a lot of exposure to the masses, other than Pinnock's Nelson, and two Stabat Mater discs.

I'm late to the game but I have three of the Hickox discs and love them. FWIW.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 18, 2014, 10:42:52 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 18, 2014, 09:03:48 AM
Hickox on Chandos recordings of the Masses, what's the Haus' take?

I just ordered their Nelson Mass disc, what I sampled sounded nice. I don't have a lot of exposure to the masses, other than Pinnock's Nelson, and two Stabat Mater discs.

IMO, Hickox's cycle is well done, but currently none of his interpretations is my first choice among the period instrument versions (the only I consider in this repertoire). This principally because all sounds too much large and lacking in intimacy, even beyond the early masses.

My favorite cycle is that recorded on Naxos by the Trinity Choir and the Rebel Baroque Orchestra, under two different conductors (Burdick & Glover) because IMO it summarizes the best features that I wait these days from a great historically informed performance. I mean voices without vibrato, great flexibility, instruments beautifully blended and so. After the Naxos cycle, Bruno Weil comes very close.

BTW, I believe some interpretations conducted by Simon Preston (using boys choir and separately available on Decca) are very fine, too.

[asin]B002IVRBBU[/asin]

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-V5AhdelncE8/UaOOe5o2f8I/AAAAAAABiUo/kTktLJ21Mak/s400/haydn-mass+portada+box.PNG)

[asin]B0000042HO[/asin]

[asin]B0000041MA[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on July 19, 2014, 04:14:50 AM

Popping in to mention here that I finally pulled the trigger and ordered those two sets of Kuijken symphonies, the 'Paris' symphonies on one pair of discs and nos. 88 to 92 on the other pair.

I know I'd had them pencilled in ever since the Haus informed me of the existence of the 88-92 set, but I had a quick listen to a couple of samples on iTunes before including them in my order. It was only 5 minutes of listening, but gee I'm looking forward to hearing the full works now! Sounded great!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 19, 2014, 04:33:04 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 18, 2014, 05:15:56 PM
It uses a falling motive like the opening to the Little g minor, then moves on to a fast figure which is similar, before moving on. So there is an element of similarity. It is not unusual after Mozart's death, which affected Haydn severely, for him to use quotations from some Mozart works in a tributary sort of way. In this case, though, that symphony will have been virtually unknown to Vienna or Eisenstadt (the intended audience), and possibly even unknown to Haydn himself, since of the works which Mozart asked Leopold for performance scores, this wasn't one (that's documented). It rather reminds me of the case of the overture to Bastien and Bastienne, which overture commences with the same introduction as Beethoven's 3rd Symphony. It is very unlikely that Mozart ever heard Eroica... ;) :D

So, I think it is a commonality of language.

8)

So coincidence it is. It's even the same descending intervals, and notes based on the recordings I was comparing G, D, Eb, Gb. I guess brilliant minds think alike.
And I knew I could rely on you, Gurn, for a little history lesson. ;) :)
Thanks, friend!

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on July 18, 2014, 07:44:20 PM
I'm late to the game but I have three of the Hickox discs and love them. FWIW.

I've got the Nelson Mass on the way, and possibly more once I get a full listen in. Thanks for the recs, DD!

Quote from: Gordo on July 18, 2014, 10:42:52 PM
IMO, Hickox's cycle is well done, but currently none of his interpretations is my first choice among the period instrument versions (the only I consider in this repertoire). This principally because all sounds too much large and lacking in intimacy, even beyond the early masses.

My favorite cycle is that recorded on Naxos by the Trinity Choir and the Rebel Baroque Orchestra, under two different conductors (Burdick & Glover) because IMO it summarizes the best features that I wait these days from a great historically informed performance. I mean voices without vibrato, great flexibility, instruments beautifully blended and so. After the Naxos cycle, Bruno Weil comes very close.

I have the Trinity Choir/Rebel BO Naxos disc of the Stabat Mater, and LOVE it, for the reasons that you just mentioned, Gordo. Not sure why I waited so long to explore their other recordings.
Thanks!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 19, 2014, 05:03:39 AM

Quote from: Gordo on July 18, 2014, 10:42:52 PM
IMO, Hickox's cycle is well done, but currently none of his interpretations is my first choice among the period instrument versions (the only I consider in this repertoire). This principally because all sounds too much large and lacking in intimacy, even beyond the early masses.

My favorite cycle is that recorded on Naxos by the Trinity Choir and the Rebel Baroque Orchestra, under two different conductors (Burdick & Glover) because IMO it summarizes the best features that I wait these days from a great historically informed performance. I mean voices without vibrato, great flexibility, instruments beautifully blended and so. After the Naxos cycle, Bruno Weil comes very close.

BTW, I believe some interpretations conducted by Simon Preston (using boys choir and separately available on Decca) are very fine, too.

[asin]B002IVRBBU[/asin]

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-V5AhdelncE8/UaOOe5o2f8I/AAAAAAABiUo/kTktLJ21Mak/s400/haydn-mass+portada+box.PNG)

[asin]B0000042HO[/asin]

All highly commendable. Note the second Decca listed is not AAM, it is London Symphony and Academy of St Martin's etc., I find it deceptive of Deccan not to list that item on the cover. The other Decca is a peach though, (rant alert)even though they stubbornly insisted on calling the 'Missa Cellensis' the 'Missa St Cecelia' even though they were, by then, perfectly aware that St. Cecelia was nowhere to be found when this mass was written. I hate it when people knowingly try to perpetuate misinformation. (rant over)

Getting back to the Theresienmesse which began this discussion (I think), here is a version I rather like, rarely mentioned:

[asin]B0000057ED[/asin]

Nothing so exotic as a boys' choir, but nonetheless finely played and sung.

And a Nelson Mass which I haven't seen mentioned since I first rec'd it, this is a nice disk!

[asin]B008SCC36Q[/asin]

Oh well, don't want to get too OT, I'm just a rec'cing fool. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 19, 2014, 05:09:47 AM

Quote from: orfeo on July 19, 2014, 04:14:50 AM
Popping in to mention here that I finally pulled the trigger and ordered those two sets of Kuijken symphonies, the 'Paris' symphonies on one pair of discs and nos. 88 to 92 on the other pair.

I know I'd had them pencilled in ever since the Haus informed me of the existence of the 88-92 set, but I had a quick listen to a couple of samples on iTunes before including them in my order. It was only 5 minutes of listening, but gee I'm looking forward to hearing the full works now! Sounded great!

I know you won't be disappointed in the 88-92 set, Le Petite Bande are in fine form there, it is one of my favorite efforts by them. The Paris set is Kuijken with a different band, some like it, some don't. I do. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on July 19, 2014, 05:23:29 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 19, 2014, 05:09:47 AM
I know you won't be disappointed in the 88-92 set, Le Petite Bande are in fine form there, it is one of my favorite efforts by them. The Paris set is Kuijken with a different band, some like it, some don't. I do. :)

8)

I took a sample or two from each, so I'm expecting to enjoy both.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 19, 2014, 05:38:14 AM

Just to make a further point about this recording:

[asin]B008SCC36Q[/asin]

The soloists here are also all men, as well as the choir. So if you wanted to hear a male treble, no better time than the present! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 19, 2014, 09:30:30 AM

I don't have those Decca 2-CD set, but this box set released by Decca:

[asin]B0000042DO[/asin]
7-CD set

The whole thing is attractive and stylish, even although the masses are principally performed by MI bands.

The performances conducted by Preston (with Hogwood as organist) are scattered through different CDs in this set. So I though the short Missa "Rorate coeli desuper" was included in the second Decca disk I posted, as Preston is credited there. But I was wrong because the credits are because Preston is the organist in the Nelson Mass conducted by Sir David Wilcocks.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 19, 2014, 10:58:33 AM

Quote from: Gordo on July 19, 2014, 09:30:30 AM
I don't have those Decca 2-CD set, but this box set released by Decca:

[asin]B0000042DO[/asin]
7-CD set

The whole thing is attractive and stylish, even although the masses are principally performed by MI bands.

The performances conducted by Preston (with Hogwood as organist) are scattered through different CDs in this set. So I though the short Missa "Rorate coeli desuper" was included in the second Decca disk I posted, as Preston is credited there. But I was wrong because the credits are because Preston is the organist in the Nelson Mass conducted by Sir David Wilcocks.

Ah. Well, I have the 2 Double-Decca's you posted earlier, got them together, foolishly thinking they were the same performers. I'm always especially irritated when I make a foolish mistake involving spending money, even if just a little. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on July 20, 2014, 05:15:44 AM

Gurn, are you familiar with this book?

[asin]025333487X[/asin]

I stumbled across a preview of it in Google Books. Just a few hundred pages on Haydn's symphonies...

It's volume 2 in a multi-book set.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 20, 2014, 06:00:19 AM

Quote from: orfeo on July 20, 2014, 05:15:44 AM
Gurn, are you familiar with this book?

I stumbled across a preview of it in Google Books. Just a few hundred pages on Haydn's symphonies...

It's volume 2 in a multi-book set.

Orfeo,

Yes, I have that book. I use it as reference for quite a lot of my essays on the symphonies. I'm not an educated and adept theoretician, and so it is a tough slog for me, but always valuable. Some of the symphonies he treats from a purely theory standpoint, while others he gives quite a bit of contextual background, which is where the value lies for me. It was $60 well spent, I think, since I have learned a lot from it; not least, I have learned how much I don't know about some things. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 20, 2014, 10:45:49 AM

It can be difficult sometimes to write about things which you aren't sure you like or don't like so much. This rarely happens to me with Haydn, and I'm still not sure, but here is my latest essay, having a look at the last 2 symphonies of 1775. See what you think!

Still pondering this... (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/07/1775-the-music-part-3-.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on July 20, 2014, 04:15:09 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 20, 2014, 10:45:49 AM
It can be difficult sometimes to write about things which you aren't sure you like or don't like so much. This rarely happens to me with Haydn, and I'm still not sure, but here is my latest essay, having a look at the last 2 symphonies of 1775. See what you think!

Still pondering this... (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/07/1775-the-music-part-3-.html)

Thanks!
8)

Thanks for the read! My immature self can't wait for you to get to 93, particularly the slow movement ;D. It doesn't have a nickname, does it?

I went to another (not closing) music store in the area today and found a conductor's score of 94 sitting outside in the 50%-off clearance bin. What a surprise! I was tempted to get the score to Messiaen's awesome "Oiseaux Exotiques" piano concerto, but Haydn prevailed (Schumann PC, too). I'll get the Messiaen another time. It's overpriced, anyways -- $60 for a tiny score.

Then, as I as at checkout, I started wondering what Haydn would think of Messiaen's "Oiseaux Exotiques". A silly thought, I know, but I couldn't help but think about it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 20, 2014, 04:20:13 PM

Quote from: EigenUser on July 20, 2014, 04:15:09 PM
Thanks for the read! My immature self can't wait for you to get to 93, particularly the slow movement ;D. It doesn't have a nickname, does it?

I went to another (not closing) music store in the area today and found a conductor's score of 94 sitting outside in the 50%-off clearance bin. What a surprise! I was tempted to get the score to Messiaen's awesome "Oiseaux Exotiques" piano concerto, but Haydn prevailed (Schumann PC, too). I'll get the Messiaen another time. It's overpriced, anyways -- $60 for a tiny score.

Then, as I as at checkout, I started wondering what Haydn would think of Messiaen's "Oiseaux Exotiques". A silly thought, I know, but I couldn't help but think about it.

You're welcome. Thanks for reading!

A conductor's score. Is that, like, notated with musical directions and such? I've never seen one, I would like to. I might hunt around and see what I can find.

Well, Haydn was not one of those who rejected new things. I can only imagine he would have been surprised at first, then intrigued. Interesting avenue of inquiry, even though ultimately fruitless. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on July 20, 2014, 04:39:17 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 20, 2014, 04:20:13 PM
You're welcome. Thanks for reading!

A conductor's score. Is that, like, notated with musical directions and such? I've never seen one, I would like to. I might hunt around and see what I can find.

It is the same as a mini score, but big (usually bigger than standard letter sized paper). A lot of mini scores are hard to read. Haydn isn't usually a problem because he doesn't often call for things like an army of horns, harps, celesta, onde Martinot, and alto ocarinas (;D), but when you get to Mahler, Schoenberg, and especially Ligeti it gets ridiculous. I have a mini Dover edition of Mahler's 7th which is illegible in some places. They actually make a mini score of Ligeti's "Atmospheres" which I got from the library one time. It calls for a huge orchestra, and every stringed instrument plays separate parts. The result?
(http://www.medienaesthetik.uni-siegen.de/uploads/pics/Ligeti_ganz.jpg)
Note that this isn't written in weird modern graphic notations (i.e. Penderecki's "magic marker music"). Those are actual notes.

I just specified conductor's score because they are harder to find in music stores and they are usually very expensive when they are available. Thus, I was surprised to see it there in a clearance bin.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 20, 2014, 05:07:56 PM

Quote from: EigenUser on July 20, 2014, 04:39:17 PM
It is the same as a mini score, but big (usually bigger than standard letter sized paper). A lot of mini scores are hard to read. Haydn isn't usually a problem because he doesn't often call for things like an army of horns, harps, celesta, onde Martinot, and alto ocarinas (;D), but when you get to Mahler, Schoenberg, and especially Ligeti it gets ridiculous. I have a mini Dover edition of Mahler's 7th which is illegible in some places. They actually make a mini score of Ligeti's "Atmospheres" which I got from the library one time. It calls for a huge orchestra, and every stringed instrument plays separate parts. The result?
(http://www.medienaesthetik.uni-siegen.de/uploads/pics/Ligeti_ganz.jpg)
Note that this isn't written in weird modern graphic notations (i.e. Penderecki's "magic marker music"). Those are actual notes.

I just specified conductor's score because they are harder to find in music stores and they are usually very expensive when they are available. Thus, I was surprised to see it there in a clearance bin.

AH, OK, I get it. The first score I ever bought was Beethoven 9, and it was a mini score. I couldn't read the damn thing even with my best reading glasses, so I tossed it and got a big one. All I get are big ones now. Scores are hard enough without making them invisible too! :D

Damn, I can't imagine a score like that to follow along to. Holy crap! :o

Cheers,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on July 20, 2014, 07:06:20 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 20, 2014, 05:07:56 PM

Damn, I can't imagine a score like that to follow along to. Holy crap! :o

This is what astounds me about Kleiber. He said he hated conducting. How in gods name does one become a conductor if one hates it? It's such a specialized skill.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on July 20, 2014, 08:02:30 PM

Quote from: EigenUser on July 20, 2014, 04:15:09 PM
Thanks for the read! My immature self can't wait for you to get to 93, particularly the slow movement ;D. It doesn't have a nickname, does it?

"The Flatulent"

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 21, 2014, 10:12:41 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 19, 2014, 05:09:47 AM
I know you won't be disappointed in the 88-92 set, Le Petite Bande are in fine form there, it is one of my favorite efforts by them. The Paris set is Kuijken with a different band, some like it, some don't. I do. :)

8)

Their Harmoniemesse here below may possibly be my favorite:

[asin]B007AR7QZI[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 21, 2014, 10:23:02 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 21, 2014, 10:12:41 AM
Their Harmoniemesse here below may possibly be my favorite:

[asin]B007AR7QZI[/asin]

I like the looks of that set, Karl!

I have the mass, in this version:

[asin]B000001TYT[/asin]

I agree, it's a peach. The wind band is first rate, nicely recorded too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on July 23, 2014, 05:59:52 PM

My friend came over today to play music. Usually we play stuff four two pianos or violin and piano (we both play both), but we wanted to play music for two violins and all I had were the Bartok 44 violin duets. So, I pulled out a violin and viola part from Haydn's "Symphony No. 2" and we played it as a duet! I have a viola, but I need to get it repaired (I haven't played it in a while, and the bridge is so warped that looks like it is going to snap if I even breath near it). Pretty much all of the viola part is in a violin range, so it was possible. And it worked! It actually sounded nice, plus it was a lot of fun.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on July 23, 2014, 07:36:07 PM

For the next time you might to check out
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51I7XUTlzpL.jpg)
On the assumption that Michael qualifies as a member of the Haushold.
There are other recordings but that is the one I have.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 24, 2014, 04:34:13 AM

Quote from: EigenUser on July 23, 2014, 05:59:52 PM
My friend came over today to play music. Usually we play stuff four two pianos or violin and piano (we both play both), but we wanted to play music for two violins and all I had were the Bartok 44 violin duets. So, I pulled out a violin and viola part from Haydn's "Symphony No. 2" and we played it as a duet! I have a viola, but I need to get it repaired (I haven't played it in a while, and the bridge is so warped that looks like it is going to snap if I even breath near it). Pretty much all of the viola part is in a violin range, so it was possible. And it worked! It actually sounded nice, plus it was a lot of fun.

That's cool! Wish I was a musician. I can play the hell out of a CD though. :)

[asin]B000M2DJTA[/asin]

These are for 2 violins and cello, but the cello only plays a continuo which can be dispensed with for your purposes. They are excellent!

These

[asin]B00BI8SDY8[/asin]

work nice when you get your viola fixed. You can even get the score:

[asin]B003AD0ENC[/asin]

Just a thought... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 24, 2014, 04:45:07 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 23, 2014, 07:36:07 PM
For the next time you might to check out
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51I7XUTlzpL.jpg)
On the assumption that Michael qualifies as a member of the Haushold.
There are other recordings but that is the one I have.

Yes and yes! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on July 24, 2014, 07:05:25 AM

You know, it just occurred to me that those new purchases of symphonies 82 through 92 will be almost the first music of Haydn's I'll have that isn't from the 1790s.

The only stuff I already own that isn't from the 1790s are the cello concertos. Everything else - 15 string quartets, 8 piano trios, 12 symphonies, The Creation - it's all from that one decade. Oh, and somewhere (possibly back at my parent's house) is a cassette copy of the string quartet version of the Seven Last Words. That barely counts.

Basically my ears only know Haydn as a man in his 60s post-Mozart. Here is Gurn plugging away at a chronology, and the stuff in my library is still decades away!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 24, 2014, 07:26:57 AM

Quote from: orfeo on July 24, 2014, 07:05:25 AM
You know, it just occurred to me that those new purchases of symphonies 82 through 92 will be almost the first music of Haydn's I'll have that isn't from the 1790s.

The only stuff I already own that isn't from the 1790s are the cello concertos. Everything else - 15 string quartets, 8 piano trios, 12 symphonies, The Creation - it's all from that one decade. Oh, and somewhere (possibly back at my parent's house) is a cassette copy of the string quartet version of the Seven Last Words. That barely counts.

Basically my ears only know Haydn as a man in his 60s post-Mozart. Here is Gurn plugging away at a chronology, and the stuff in my library is still decades away!

I know a heck of a lot of people who can say the same thing about Mozart; they have the stuff from his final decade in Vienna, and no real basis of reference beyond that, to see where it came from, so to speak. At least you have the masterworks! Maybe Cooper's disk of the last 3 keyboard sonatas would fill up the decade nicely for you. :)

I like all the eras about equally, but I have to say, possibly surprisingly, the 1760's really appeals to me a lot. Nice music, tremendous variety, so much better than the competition at that point in time. But hey, that's just me.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on July 24, 2014, 08:25:32 AM

Despite some great earlier pieces (like KV 271 or Idomeneo and bunch of piano sonatas) I do not think one gets a completely wrong impression if one only knows Mozart from the 1780ties.
With Haydn it gives a skewed image of course and one will miss dozens of great works. To work through all (or most) of them chronologically might understandably feel intimidating...
A good start might be the "morning, noon, evening" symphonies #6-8 (early 1760ties), the string quartets op.20 (1772) and the famous symphonies around 1770 such as 44 "mourning", 45 "farewell" etc.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on July 24, 2014, 11:00:34 AM

Quote from: orfeo on July 24, 2014, 07:05:25 AM
You know, it just occurred to me that those new purchases of symphonies 82 through 92 will be almost the first music of Haydn's I'll have that isn't from the 1790s.

The only stuff I already own that isn't from the 1790s are the cello concertos. Everything else - 15 string quartets, 8 piano trios, 12 symphonies, The Creation - it's all from that one decade. Oh, and somewhere (possibly back at my parent's house) is a cassette copy of the string quartet version of the Seven Last Words. That barely counts.

Basically my ears only know Haydn as a man in his 60s post-Mozart. Here is Gurn plugging away at a chronology, and the stuff in my library is still decades away!

I actually don't really care for 6, 7, or 8 (as of now), but they seem to be popular so they are definitely a good starting point. I like No. 2 a lot (very short, only 8 minutes or so with a blazing finale!). I've yet to hear 44 or all of 45, but 46 is a favorite of mine. Nos. 60, 79, and 88 are other ones that stick out for me as particularly fun/amusing and also immediately engaging. I challenge anyone to listen to the first or last movement of 88 (or the end of the 2nd movement of 79, or especially the last movement of 60) without cracking a smile.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 24, 2014, 12:30:37 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on July 24, 2014, 08:25:32 AM
Despite some great earlier pieces (like KV 271 or Idomeneo and bunch of piano sonatas) I do not think one gets a completely wrong impression if one only knows Mozart from the 1780ties.
With Haydn it gives a skewed image of course and one will miss dozens of great works. To work through all (or most) of them chronologically might understandably feel intimidating...
A good start might be the "morning, noon, evening" symphonies #6-8 (early 1760ties), the string quartets op.20 (1772) and the famous symphonies around 1770 such as 44 "mourning", 45 "farewell" etc.

Well, if you believe, as many do, that the sun shines out of his ass because of the K 551 symphony, then you do have a wrong impression fostered by being sheltered! As you are (or should be) aware, even though the earlier works are very nice indeed, they hardly live up to the works of the 1780's.

I would not want to see a big focus on the symphonies when going through the early Haydn works. Sure, they are fine, but aren't the best representation either of his early music or the period in general. Various divertimentos, the horn concerto (1762), string trios (pretty much all done by 1765), organ concertos, the 5 movement string quartets of Op 1 & 2 (1757-60), keyboard sonatas (divertimentos) solo and accompanied (trios and quartets); these are the music he built his career on, even though other genres developed primacy. Those are all fine works you mentioned too, but there is scarcely any generic diversity from the '90's. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 24, 2014, 05:41:13 PM

As I mentioned some while back, I ordered the balance of the Solomons disks from Haydn House (that's Haus, guys!). I ripped them to flac and am now listening to them. They didn't contain any original artwork, and I thought the art they put on them was pretty random (works on disk are like 2, 10, 55 & 69 on disk 2). The transfers are great, you would hardly know they were done right off the LP's!

I went ahead and made my own cover art, except for the Morzin symphonies, which I found scans of the actual LP's!

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/OriginalLPcoverMorzinvol1_zps34d63d2a.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/OriginalLPcoverMorzinvol2_zpse29abb8b.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/EarlyEsterhazySymphonies1761-66_zpsa6f1e7a5.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/SturmampDrangEra1766-72_zpsea4dce9d.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/MiddleEsterhazySymphonies1773-81_zpsc0f578a6.jpg)

I wouldn't feel at all reticent about recommending these disks. On the rarely recorded works, they provide an alternative to Hogwood for some, like 55-57, 66-69 and such as that. And really, the pioneer efforts of PI!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on July 24, 2014, 06:28:46 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 24, 2014, 05:41:13 PM
As I mentioned some while back, I ordered the balance of the Solomons disks from Haydn House (that's Haus, guys!). I ripped them to flac and am now listening to them. They didn't contain any original artwork, and I thought the art they put on them was pretty random (works on disk are like 2, 10, 55 & 69 on disk 2). The transfers are great, you would hardly know they were done right off the LP's!

I went ahead and made my own cover art, except for the Morzin symphonies, which I found scans of the actual LP's!

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/OriginalLPcoverMorzinvol1_zps34d63d2a.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/OriginalLPcoverMorzinvol2_zpse29abb8b.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/EarlyEsterhazySymphonies1761-66_zpsa6f1e7a5.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/SturmampDrangEra1766-72_zpsea4dce9d.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/MiddleEsterhazySymphonies1773-81_zpsc0f578a6.jpg)

I wouldn't feel at all reticent about recommending these disks. On the rarely recorded works, they provide an alternative to Hogwood for some, like 55-57, 66-69 and such as that. And really, the pioneer efforts of PI!

8)

Aaagh. Don't remind me. I saw those cheap somewhere some years ago, dirt cheap, and ... Passed them by. :'(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 25, 2014, 04:25:50 AM

I feel your pain, dude.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 25, 2014, 06:01:01 PM

We all have our little favorite things musically, things which many of our compadres aren't aware of, but which doesn't bother us a bit. That much more for me, I say! :) In 1775, Haydn wrote these 7 (probably more, but 7 survive) divertimentos for 8 instruments, his last compositions for baryton, and by far his best. They were also at the edge of being his best works for horn. I've been reading about them (not easy to do!) and listening to them (very easy to do!) for the last week, here are some of my thoughts, if you would like to check them out. :)

My secret vice is out! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/07/1775-the-music-part-4-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 26, 2014, 06:13:10 AM

One of my Twitter followers posted this link to a short and interesting video on the baryton:

http://youtu.be/QZApJANZjl0

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 26, 2014, 06:25:30 AM

Hey, value out of the Twittersphere!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 27, 2014, 11:56:41 AM

(http://www.freundederkuenste.de/typo3temp/GB/Midori_Seiler-Violin_Concertos-CD_6280f02517_de6b6dfc9b.png)

After a first listen of this recently released disk by Midori Seiler and Concerto Köln, I have thought that (maybe) my current ranking for these violin concertos should be revised. A bit darker in tone than usual, the whole approach works out perfectly. Although the Concerto Köln is a bit more "gentle" than Seiler (who can be really ferocious), the mix is beautiful and totally captivating. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 27, 2014, 11:59:38 AM

Quote from: Gordo on July 27, 2014, 11:56:41 AM
(http://www.freundederkuenste.de/typo3temp/GB/Midori_Seiler-Violin_Concertos-CD_6280f02517_de6b6dfc9b.png)

After a first listen of this recently released disk by Midori Seiler and Concerto Köln, I have thought that (maybe) my current ranking for these violin concertos should be revised. A bit darker in tone than usual, the whole approach works out perfectly. Although the Concerto Köln is a bit more "gentle" than Seiler (who can be really ferocious), the mix is beautiful and totally captivating. :)

Thanks for the feedback, Gordo. I have that on my wishlist, but wasn't in a huge rush to pull the trigger. Now, maybe more of a rush? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 27, 2014, 01:18:54 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 27, 2014, 11:59:38 AM
Thanks for the feedback, Gordo. I have that on my wishlist, but wasn't in a huge rush to pull the trigger. Now, maybe more of a rush? :)

8)

:)

I found this promotional video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/v/hLKEoqhjxT0

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 27, 2014, 01:27:49 PM

Quote from: Gordo on July 27, 2014, 01:18:54 PM
:)

I found this promotional video on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/v/hLKEoqhjxT0

Cool. Well, I anticipated I would like it (and now that has paid off) and after our earlier interchange, I pulled the trigger on it, as well as on the American Bach Soloists doing the Kleine Orgelsolomesse and the Missa in angustiis. I know you are also well familiar with that one! :)

[asin]B000001SK5[/asin]

So, a good day. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 27, 2014, 05:21:09 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 27, 2014, 01:27:49 PM
Cool. Well, I anticipated I would like it (and now that has paid off) and after our earlier interchange, I pulled the trigger on it, as well as on the American Bach Soloists doing the Kleine Orgelsolomesse and the Missa in angustiis. I know you are also well familiar with that one! :)

[asin]B000001SK5[/asin]

So, a good day. :)

8)

Yes, it's a fine American ensemble, specially doing Bach. I have been preaching in the desert for years about the beauty of their disks of cantatas. I find their Haydn less compelling, but good anyway.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 27, 2014, 05:26:56 PM

Quote from: Gordo on July 27, 2014, 05:21:09 PM
Yes, it's a fine American ensemble, specially doing Bach. I have been preaching in the desert for years about the beauty of their disks of cantatas. I find their Haydn less compelling, but good anyway.

I particularly liked the Kleine Orgelsolomesse though. It was quite compelling, and it doesn't always get the attention it deserves. They use the timpani to the max in the Nelson Mass! I have several great Nelson's, really good John of God masses are rare though. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 27, 2014, 05:41:32 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 27, 2014, 05:26:56 PM
I particularly liked the Kleine Orgelsolomesse though. It was quite compelling, and it doesn't always get the attention it deserves. They use the timpani to the max in the Nelson Mass! I have several great Nelson's, really good John of God masses are rare though. :)

8)

I agree.

I maybe missed some sense of "intimacy" (spiritual seclusion?); but they are very good, indeed. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 29, 2014, 04:19:17 AM

Très cool!

Quote from: Jo498 on July 29, 2014, 04:05:11 AM
The Haydn symphony listening was supposed to be spread over one year, doing two symphonies a week, starting in 2008 and some people in a german language forum did participate, although for several reasons it was never completely finished (a handful or two symphonies around 53 are still left over).

you can get all the scores online here:

http://www.haydn107.com/index.php?id=2&lng=1

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 30, 2014, 05:34:21 AM

A lot of things make up 'keyboard music'. I thought I might take a look at the extremes this time. See what you think.

From small to large! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/07/1775-the-music-part-5-kleineorgelsolomesse.html)

Thanks for checking it out, happy to discuss. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: torut on July 31, 2014, 11:52:49 PM

This might be interesting. I would love to hear it actually played.

A Chronological Survey of Haydn's Symphonic Opening Sonorities
for chamber orchestra
Joseph Haydn / Erik Carlson
http://midnightsledding.com/carlson/HaydnSurvey.pdf (http://midnightsledding.com/carlson/HaydnSurvey.pdf)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on August 01, 2014, 01:13:25 AM

Quote from: torut on July 31, 2014, 11:52:49 PM
This might be interesting. I would love to hear it actually played.

A Chronological Survey of Haydn's Symphonic Opening Sonorities
for chamber orchestra
Joseph Haydn / Erik Carlson
http://midnightsledding.com/carlson/HaydnSurvey.pdf (http://midnightsledding.com/carlson/HaydnSurvey.pdf)

That's hilarious!

Also, it makes me realize just how screwed up the numbering is. ???

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 01, 2014, 04:19:37 AM

:D Most interesting. I was pleased to see it scored for full orchestra, rather than a piano reduction.... ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on August 02, 2014, 12:10:05 PM

Anyine heard this? What's it like?

(http://a3.mzstatic.com/us/r30/Music6/v4/d7/c6/d8/d7c6d82f-da54-3a7d-e0a2-14367c26b057/0760623025124_1448.170x170-75.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 02, 2014, 12:40:12 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on August 02, 2014, 12:10:05 PM
Anyine heard this? What's it like?

(http://a3.mzstatic.com/us/r30/Music6/v4/d7/c6/d8/d7c6d82f-da54-3a7d-e0a2-14367c26b057/0760623025124_1448.170x170-75.jpg)

No, hadn't heard it; hadn't heard of it!

But since he is playing on a 1794 Broadwood, the piano these were written to be played on, I found it hard to refuse, so it is on its way to me. Thanks for pointing out.

[asin]B0000D8V0B[/asin]

At the same time I went ahead and ordered this new release which promises to be a peach, too. Little bit earlier repertoire, with the addition of the f minor variations, and the interesting feature of the player improvising a chromatic prelude between pieces, a very authentic manner of the times.

[asin]B00KH6JLFM[/asin]

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on August 02, 2014, 01:27:20 PM

I may get it too -- it's cheap to download. I noticed that he's also recorded the some Kenner und Liebhaber pieces -- he's a CPEB expert so that's something I'll get for sure.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 02, 2014, 01:30:23 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on August 02, 2014, 01:27:20 PM
I may get it too -- it's cheap to download. I noticed that he's also recorded the some Kenner und Liebhaber pieces -- he's a CPEB expert so that's something I'll get for sure.

Yup, saw that too, am mulling it for the nonce. I feel like I have a very productive afternoon now, looking forward to both these disks (I'm pretty sure I only have fewer than 20 versions of Hob 52.... ::) ) :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on August 02, 2014, 01:31:33 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 02, 2014, 12:40:12 PM
No, hadn't heard it; hadn't heard of it!

But since he is playing on a 1794 Broadwood, the piano these were written to be played on, I found it hard to refuse, so it is on its way to me. Thanks for pointing out.

[asin]B0000D8V0B[/asin]

At the same time I went ahead and ordered this new release which promises to be a peach, too. Little bit earlier repertoire, with the addition of the f minor variations, and the interesting feature of the player improvising a chromatic prelude between pieces, a very authentic manner of the times.

[asin]B00KH6JLFM[/asin]

8)

don't tell me Papa has gone to the dogs!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 02, 2014, 01:34:05 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 02, 2014, 01:31:33 PM
don't tell me Papa has gone to the dogs!

:D I must admit, that one brought me up short. An ultra-talented Cocker Spaniel, I think. ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on August 02, 2014, 01:37:13 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 02, 2014, 01:30:23 PM
Yup, saw that too, am mulling it for the nonce. I feel like I have a very productive afternoon now, looking forward to both these disks (I'm pretty sure I only have fewer than 20 versions of Hob 52.... ::) ) :D

8)

The Iron Law of Music is that the recording you want is always the next one.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 02, 2014, 01:53:41 PM

Quote from: Ken B on August 02, 2014, 01:37:13 PM
The Iron Law of Music is that the recording you want is always the next one.

And I am nothing if not a law-following kind of guy... :)

In truth, I have umpteen satisfactory versions, well-played. What I look for now is different tonal colors from different instruments. I see Rémy's is an authentic 1794 Broadwood, so it should have a most interesting sound. I take it as given that he can play it just fine. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on August 03, 2014, 08:24:05 AM

I was doing a comparison between Harnoncourt's and Hogwood's Haydn, and then started listening to Abbado's 100-102 symphonies, and then went through all my CDs, culled all the Haydn discs and put them in a (fairly substantial) pile next to my player...I think it's time for a Haydn binge :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on August 03, 2014, 08:28:59 AM

Quote from: Baklavaboy on August 03, 2014, 08:24:05 AM
I was doing a comparison between Harnoncourt's and Hogwood's Haydn, and then started listening to Abbado's 100-102 symphonies, and then went through all my CDs, culled all the Haydn discs and put them in a (fairly substantial) pile next to my player...I think it's time for a Haydn binge :)

[asin]B001DSR9PC[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 03, 2014, 08:31:11 AM

Quote from: Baklavaboy on August 03, 2014, 08:24:05 AM
I was doing a comparison between Harnoncourt's and Hogwood's Haydn, and then started listening to Abbado's 100-102 symphonies, and then went through all my CDs, culled all the Haydn discs and put them in a (fairly substantial) pile next to my player...I think it's time for a Haydn binge :)

It's always time for a Haydn Binge. You have to be careful though, I went on one 7 years ago and am still there! :o :o

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on August 03, 2014, 08:44:48 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 03, 2014, 08:31:11 AM
It's always time for a Haydn Binge. You have to be careful though, I went on one 7 years ago and am still there! :o :o

8)

:laugh: Believe it or not, I am trying to go through this thread. I'm on about page 15. It's something pleasant to do while listening to the music. The problem is, every time someone praises something, I want to run out and buy it ??? Could be a very expensive thread.

Ken, I have the Brautigam! Hadn't hit it very hard, but I think that will change soon--I need to augment the symphonies with all the other stuff...(Listening to the Staier disc of Haydn Sonatas now, from the DHM box--fantastic!)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 03, 2014, 09:24:18 AM

Sometimes opera is interesting, even if you aren't an opera fan! Haydn's L'incontro improvviso is such a case. If you know the history of the times you will know what I mean. If you don't know, I try to help out a little bit here. Check out if interested; love to discuss!

The Unexpected Encounter (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/08/1775-the-music-part-6-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 03, 2014, 09:27:15 AM

Quote from: Baklavaboy on August 03, 2014, 08:44:48 AM
:laugh: Believe it or not, I am trying to go through this thread. I'm on about page 15. It's something pleasant to do while listening to the music. The problem is, every time someone praises something, I want to run out and buy it ??? Could be a very expensive thread.

Ken, I have the Brautigam! Hadn't hit it very hard, but I think that will change soon--I need to augment the symphonies with all the other stuff...(Listening to the Staier disc of Haydn Sonatas now, from the DHM box--fantastic!)

Obviously a man of highly refined taste. :)

My blog is far less provocative in the 'buy me' sections, since I only point out a choice you could make as opposed to a series of purchases you must make. And hopefully, some interesting background besides. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on August 03, 2014, 04:57:17 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 03, 2014, 09:27:15 AM
Obviously a man of highly refined taste. :)

My blog is far less provocative in the 'buy me' sections, since I only point out a choice you could make as opposed to a series of purchases you must make. And hopefully, some interesting background besides. :)

8)

I look forward to reading it. (Although it will be a couple of weeks before I can start.) I LIVED in the 18th century for a couple of years when working on my dissertation in 18th century British Lit--Boswell and Johnson--but haven't come back to it much since then, as far as the written word goes.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 03, 2014, 05:01:47 PM

Quote from: Baklavaboy on August 03, 2014, 04:57:17 PM
I look forward to reading it. (Although it will be a couple of weeks before I can start.) I LIVED in the 18th century for a couple of years when working on my dissertation in 18th century British Lit--Boswell and Johnson--but haven't come back to it much since then, as far as the written word goes.

Ah! Well, that's the way to do it. Total immersion! I am getting a touch of 18th century lit doing this, although not much British yet. French though... :P It is broadening my horizons though , and I am always pleased when that happens. In any case, I always welcome feedback and discussion, so whenever you're ready... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 03, 2014, 05:35:43 PM

Hey, Gurn..

I noticed you were listening to Harnoncourt's recording of Die Jahreszeiten, how would you compare it to Gardiner, Jacobs and Kuijken? I really do enjoy all three, as they all bring their own unique sound and interpretation, but I do spin Jacobs the most. Jacobs' really possess the best sound quality which clearly defines all the great lines from the score, and it's a great performance as well although I do prefer some of the broader tempi in many places that Gardiner and Kuijken deliver.

Do you have the Jacobs' disc, Gurn?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 03, 2014, 05:45:53 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 03, 2014, 05:35:43 PM
Hey, Gurn..

I noticed you were listening to Harnoncourt's recording of Die Jahreszeiten, how would you compare it to Gardiner, Jacobs and Kuijken? I really do enjoy all three, as they all bring their own unique sound and interpretation, but I do spin Jacobs the most. Jacobs' really possess the best sound quality which clearly defines all the great lines from the score, and it's a great performance as well although I do prefer some of the broader tempi in many places that Gardiner and Kuijken deliver.

Do you have the Jacobs' disc, Gurn?

Greg,

Well, you chose the one set I don't have! I have Gardiner and Kuijken as well as Harnoncourt, but so far I only have Jacobs' 'Creation'. I was a late starter on 'The Seasons', although trying to catch up now.

I really like this Harnoncourt one, I think it compares favorably to both Gardiner and Kuijken, which is a hard admission for me to make! I need to go back and re-listen the Gardiner though, to be fair, it has been 2 or 3 years since I've spun it. The sound is better than the Kuijken though, very sharp and clear. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 03, 2014, 06:01:13 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 03, 2014, 05:45:53 PM
Greg,

Well, you chose the one set I don't have! I have Gardiner and Kuijken as well as Harnoncourt, but so far I only have Jacobs' 'Creation'. I was a late starter on 'The Seasons', although trying to catch up now.

I really like this Harnoncourt one, I think it compares favorably to both Gardiner and Kuijken, which is a hard admission for me to make! I need to go back and re-listen the Gardiner though, to be fair, it has been 2 or 3 years since I've spun it. The sound is better than the Kuijken though, very sharp and clear. :)

8)

I think you would enjoy indulging in Jacobs' Seasons, it's quite good. If anything, get it for the overly eager contrabassoon in the final movement of Der Sommer, it rivals any bassoon performance of symphony 93's adagio :laugh:

Also, I could easily listen to Der Sommer on repeat, it's up there with some of the loveliest music from Haydn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 03, 2014, 06:03:52 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 03, 2014, 06:01:13 PM
I think you would enjoy indulging in Jacobs' Seasons, it's quite good. If anything, get it for the overly eager contrabassoon in the final movement of Der Sommer, it rivals any bassoon performance of symphony 93's adagio :laugh:

Also, I could easily listen to Der Sommer on repeat, it's up there with some of the loveliest music from Haydn.

Ah, I love a good contra. I agree with you about Summer. We all have our favorite seasons, I guess, but oddly Summer is a favorite both here and in Vivaldi. Hmmm.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on August 04, 2014, 02:15:12 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 03, 2014, 06:03:52 PM
Ah, I love a good contra. I agree with you about Summer. We all have our favorite seasons, I guess, but oddly Summer is a favorite both here and in Vivaldi. Hmmm.... :)

8)

Summer is my favorite in the Vivaldi, but I think I like Fall the most in Haydn's The Seasons. That fugue!

Someone posted this interesting website on the Haydn symphony poll, I think:
http://www.haydn107.com/index.php?id=2&lng=1

They have each symphony with three recordings each -- one of them HIP. I can't quite figure out what is so great about HIP. There must be something, but it sounds kind of dry to me. Not horrible at all -- just that I prefer the others. Out of curiosity (and to help me gain an appreciation), what is it in recordings with PIs that is so appealing to people?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on August 04, 2014, 06:53:54 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 03, 2014, 09:24:18 AM
Sometimes opera is interesting, even if you aren't an opera fan! Haydn's L'incontro improvviso is such a case. If you know the history of the times you will know what I mean. If you don't know, I try to help out a little bit here. Check out if interested; love to discuss!

The Unexpected Encounter (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/08/1775-the-music-part-6-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Oh my, an opera the GOP would love to hate.....And the general usefulness of the Haus: I now know what the title of one section of Sheherazade refers to.

And fortunately for you, Gurn, HM reissued the Jacobs, so you need not spend too much to get it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on August 04, 2014, 06:59:35 AM

Nate:

QuoteOut of curiosity (and to help me gain an appreciation), what is it in recordings with PIs that is so appealing to people?

Well way back when part of it was dedication. The HIPers played like they meant it, like it was all new, as it was. I think there is still a greater level of devotion.

Abstractly, when we get closer to the original sound some aspects of balance etc change and so then do interpretive choices. These can feed back to MI performances of course, and have in many cases.

And of course the sound. A Baroque orchestra sounds quite different from a modern one. More astringent, livelier, a bit more raucous. True also of classical orchestras. You complain Mozart is too polite and pretty. Also that PI instruments are too rough and ugly. Might I suggest some assembly is required. :)

And vocal technique is a special case. It is just different for early music, with purer tones and less vibrato. This has a huge effect on contrapuntal music. Vocal coloring too.

Forgot to add: Harpsichord pisses James off.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 04, 2014, 07:23:23 AM

I'll only add that the value of the exercise is not diminished by the fact that, well, we have no way of knowing, really, just how the music sounded back then.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on August 04, 2014, 08:23:59 AM

I think Karl is referring to one of the favorite claims of the anti-HIP zealots. I find such arguments bizarre, since no one is telling them not to enjoy their Furtwängler and Klemperer recordings.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on August 04, 2014, 08:49:24 AM

Quote from: Pat B on August 04, 2014, 08:23:59 AM
I think Karl is referring to one of the favorite claims of the anti-HIP zealots. I find such arguments bizarre, since no one is telling them not to enjoy their Furtwängler and Klemperer recordings.

Right. There is nothing illegitimate about non-HIP. I think it pretty clear that Klemp differs more from what Mozart heard and expected than Gardiner does. That does not mean Klemp's musical insights are invalid or the like. And it certainly does not mean insights gained from PI cannot be employed with MI to good effect.
And in any case we should recognize that there are fashions in music. People don't choose to be affected but are. In 40 years who knows what they will say about current tastes in performance?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on August 04, 2014, 10:18:29 AM

When you listen to Furtwangler playing Haydn 88, or Klemperer playing 102, their ideas about things which are hard to read from the score, things like balances and some questions about articulation, are really very influenced by their own tastes. In the case of Furtwangler, the tastes of a man who felt most at home with 19th century ideas. Both guy were great musicians, so what they did with the music can be very fun to hear, of course.

By contrast, the HIP performers are trying to read the score in a way which is informed by the latest ideas from historians. I really do think that if Klemperer were alive and performing today he would play much more HIP, though maybe not with PI. Less sure about Furtwangler, who's a strange character IMO.

As far as dryness of HIP goes, my experience is different, and I've heard tons of HIP performances of baroque music which are expressive, and same for keyboard and chamber music by Haydn and Mozart. Symphonic music - well I feel less experienced about that to comment, though I would be surprised if anyone found Hogwood in the andante cantabile of 68 to be dry. Others are more able to comment about HIP Haydn and Mozart symphonies than me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on August 05, 2014, 05:52:04 AM

I want to mention something else about HIP. One theory I've got is that HIP with PI can bring out more dissonances, examples would be in Symphony 29/i, I'm really thinking of Kuijken's performance. Also in Bruggen's Mozart 40/ii. But quite honestly I don't know if my ears are deceiving me.

Neither do I really understand the role of dissonance in classical style music, though I am impressed by Beghin's sonata 52 on that well tempered English piano.

I can well imagine that part of what was involved in the paparising of Haydn was a secret conspiracy to purge the music of dissonances. Similarly for the image of Mozart which was pushed by the stakeholders in his music after he died.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on August 05, 2014, 06:06:41 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on August 04, 2014, 10:18:29 AM
I really do think that if Klemperer were alive and performing today he would play much more HIP, though maybe not with PI. Less sure about Furtwangler, who's a strange character IMO.

I agree with both. Haitink, Vanska, P. Jarvi etc all approach classical era works from a period style on modern instruments attitude. I could see Klemperer fitting in with that type of style. But Furtwangler is unique in his vision. His spiritual successor, Barenboim, also conducts as he sees fit.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on August 05, 2014, 06:08:24 AM

Mandryka, I wonder if the emphasis on dissonance is for our modern ears. Music is so dissonant these days, that dissonant music in the baroque or classical era sounds consonant to our ears, and thus does not have the same effect as it did to the audience of the time. IMHO

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on August 05, 2014, 06:39:11 AM

Sorry to interrupt a nice flow going here, but I would like a recommendation for a good Haydn bio. I prefer long biographies, assuming they are well written--three volumes would be better than two, for example. If it tells a lot of tangential historical-contextual stuff, so much the better. Any recommendations? I have Rosen's "classical style", by the way, but haven't started it. Thanks.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on August 05, 2014, 06:47:04 AM

Quote from: Baklavaboy on August 05, 2014, 06:39:11 AM
Sorry to interrupt a nice flow going here, but I would like a recommendation for a good Haydn bio. I prefer long biographies, assuming they are well written--three volumes would be better than two, for example. If it tells a lot of tangential historical-contextual stuff, so much the better. Any recommendations? I have Rosen's "classical style", by the way, but haven't started it. Thanks.

I haven't read a full bio yet, but I highly recommend the documentary "In Search of Haydn". It is on YouTube as a rental for $3 or something like that. Very well done and interesting/entertaining.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on August 05, 2014, 06:55:51 AM

Quote from: Baklavaboy on August 05, 2014, 06:39:11 AM
Sorry to interrupt a nice flow going here, but I would like a recommendation for a good Haydn bio. I prefer long biographies, assuming they are well written--three volumes would be better than two, for example. If it tells a lot of tangential historical-contextual stuff, so much the better. Any recommendations? I have Rosen's "classical style", by the way, but haven't started it. Thanks.

If you want something HIP, try Stendhal's Vie de Haydn.

Available in original French here (https://ia600500.us.archive.org/19/items/viesdehaydndemoz00sten/viesdehaydndemoz00sten.pdf).

Because --- if musical HIP is all right, then why not literary HIP as well? :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on August 05, 2014, 07:05:20 AM

Movie: Check
Stendhal's "Life of Haydn"--I'll keep an eye out, but not really what I had in mind

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on August 05, 2014, 07:07:42 AM

Quote from: Baklavaboy on August 05, 2014, 07:05:20 AM
Stendhal's "Life of Haydn"--I'll keep an eye out, but not really what I had in mind

Oh I'm sure. Just wanted to make the difference between "musical HIP" and "literary HIP". Stendhal or Dante or Homer are the same forever and ever amen. Haydn, OTOH... ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on August 05, 2014, 07:08:19 AM

Quote from: Baklavaboy on August 05, 2014, 07:05:20 AM
Movie: Check
Stendhal's "Life of Haydn"--I'll keep an eye out, but not really what I had in mind

Let me know what you think when you get the chance to see it!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on August 05, 2014, 07:13:21 AM

Quote from: EigenUser on August 05, 2014, 07:08:19 AM
Let me know what you think when you get the chance to see it!

Will do. I should hide from it until after the 10th (I have a massive amount of work), but will probably sneak it in before then ;D.

Right now looking at "Haydn: A Creative Life in Music" for the bio. Quick spin through Amazon and that is the best that came up...

edit: They won't let me stream the movie here in Taiwan...:mad:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on August 05, 2014, 08:12:28 AM

Quote from: Baklavaboy on August 05, 2014, 06:39:11 AM
Sorry to interrupt a nice flow going here, but I would like a recommendation for a good Haydn bio. I prefer long biographies, assuming they are well written--three volumes would be better than two, for example. If it tells a lot of tangential historical-contextual stuff, so much the better. Any recommendations? I have Rosen's "classical style", by the way, but haven't started it. Thanks.

Boswell's Life of Haydn
Surprised you haven't read it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on August 05, 2014, 09:42:29 AM

Quote from: Florestan on August 05, 2014, 07:07:42 AM
Oh I'm sure. Just wanted to make the difference between "musical HIP" and "literary HIP". Stendhal or Dante or Homer are the same forever and ever amen. Haydn, OTOH... ;D

Now that I think more seriously about it, it is a most interesting issue.

Gurn, you are the most knowledgeable Haydnista in residence, so here's one for you --- if you would have to choose between a 2014 performance of a Haydn's work (HIP included), and a 1814 (which is to say, just one year prior to the publishing of Stendhal's Vies de Haydn, Mozart et Metastasio) performance of the same work, which one would you choose? Which one would be more authentic on your opinion?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on August 05, 2014, 11:01:46 AM

Quote from: Florestan on August 05, 2014, 09:42:29 AM
Now that I think more seriously about it, it is a most interesting issue.

Gurn, you are the most knowledgeable Haydnista in residence, so here's one for you --- if you would have to choose between a 2014 performance of a Haydn's work (HIP included), and a 1814 (which is to say, just one year prior to the publishing of Stendhal's Vies de Haydn, Mozart et Metastasio) performance of the same work, which one would you choose? Which one would be more authentic on your opinion?

Early or late work? After all in 1814 Haydn had been immortal for only five years.
A performance of the London symphonies would be on instruments and by performers trained in the soundworld of Haydn's last years, and might count as authentic per se. You are talking about a time gap there that equals the gap between us and Morricone's Fourth Concerto, after all. But if you are thinking of one of the symphonies from the 1760-1775 period, the differences would be more pronounced.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 05, 2014, 11:32:01 AM

Quote from: Florestan on August 05, 2014, 06:55:51 AM
If you want something HIP, try Stendhal's Vie de Haydn.

Available in original French here (https://ia600500.us.archive.org/19/items/viesdehaydndemoz00sten/viesdehaydndemoz00sten.pdf).

Because --- if musical HIP is all right, then why not literary HIP as well? :D

Fine, except that Stendahl was a plagiarizing crank. ::) I know you were joking, Florestan...

This is a good choice (I have every imaginable book I think):

[asin]0253372658[/asin]

This is another:
[asin]0802868525[/asin]

Fairly short but quite detailed, and the latest and greatest info (just released this year).

There are certainly larger ones, but they cost a fortune and I don't know if you want all that anyway.

Geiringer is good (Creative Life in Music), but hard to follow, he gets a wild hair about something and pretty soon he has moved 20 years down the road without notice. Lots of info though if you can keep it straight.

There are others if these don't please, but don't buy an old book, they are generally full of crap. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 05, 2014, 11:37:27 AM

Quote from: Florestan on August 05, 2014, 09:42:29 AM
Now that I think more seriously about it, it is a most interesting issue.

Gurn, you are the most knowledgeable Haydnista in residence, so here's one for you --- if you would have to choose between a 2014 performance of a Haydn's work (HIP included), and a 1814 (which is to say, just one year prior to the publishing of Stendhal's Vies de Haydn, Mozart et Metastasio) performance of the same work, which one would you choose? Which one would be more authentic on your opinion?

Stendahl wrote only shit about Haydn; he got a copy of Carpani who had some undocumented and second-hand info to start with, and he pirated it from Italian into French and passed it off as original work. So really, it's a no-brainer.

If you want authentic this is the only possible choice:

[asin]0299027945[/asin]

Gotwals translated them from German, but both of these guys had extended stays with Haydn over the last 10 years of his life, and all you have to do is take out a little hero-worship plus the memory lapses of an old man and you have true authenticity. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on August 05, 2014, 11:43:56 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 05, 2014, 11:32:01 AM
I know you were joking, Florestan...

Not so fast! I think Flory is arguing that as mankind makes progress we understand more and understand it better. Our understanding of electrical forces is greater than Einstein's, which was greater than Maxwell's which was greater than Faraday's which was greater than Franklin's which was greater than ... and so on. In like manner we progress artistically. Thus Boulez understood music better than Stravinsky who understood it better than Brahms who understood it better than Schubert ....

I think it is completely misguided myself, though I know it drives the thinking of many. I am surprised to see Florestan advance this view.But I am sure he has his reasons.

>:D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on August 05, 2014, 03:11:25 PM

I keep meaning to hunt down the Cambridge Companion. I've seen samples of it on Google Books and thought it was just my cup of tea. Probably not something that would count as a biography though.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 05, 2014, 03:46:57 PM

Quote from: orfeo on August 05, 2014, 03:11:25 PM
I keep meaning to hunt down the Cambridge Companion. I've seen samples of it on Google Books and thought it was just my cup of tea. Probably not something that would count as a biography though.

No, not a biography, but there are several interesting essays in it, and you don't need a profound knowledge of music theory to be enlightened by them either. As it happens, it is on my reading table right now for the essay about opera I used in my last essay! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on August 05, 2014, 04:01:58 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 05, 2014, 03:46:57 PM
No, not a biography, but there are several interesting essays in it, and you don't need a profound knowledge of music theory to be enlightened by them either. As it happens, it is on my reading table right now for the essay about opera I used in my last essay! :)

8)

What I most liked about the bits I've seen is that there's fairly concise information about groups of works. For instance, I think I first came across it because it had a nice succinct table of the groups of piano trios published in the 1790s.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 05, 2014, 04:09:47 PM

Quote from: orfeo on August 05, 2014, 04:01:58 PM
What I most liked about the bits I've seen is that there's fairly concise information about groups of works. For instance, I think I first came across it because it had a nice succinct table of the groups of piano trios published in the 1790s.

Yes, I thought the essay on exoticisms was interesting, and the one by Tom Beghin on performing the sonatas. IIRC, the one you are talking about was the one about trios and sonatas and the audience (and players) they were written for. I like that it doesn't concern itself with one particular genre, but hits on a little bit of everything. It (and others like it) made me think about more than my immediate enthusiasms! There are that one and a couple of others here (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/building-a-library-part-2-anthologies.html), you may see some other essays you would like. The book "Haydn and his World" is a nice choice along those lines. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on August 05, 2014, 05:01:11 PM

Thanks, All. I got the Geringer and the Stapert. Wanted the Robbins Landis, but could not get it shipped to Taiwan for a reasonable price.

Cannot see the "Searching for Haydn" at all, which amazes me. I generally have good resources for stuff like that...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 05, 2014, 05:10:28 PM

Quote from: Baklavaboy on August 05, 2014, 05:01:11 PM
Thanks, All. I got the Geringer and the Stapert. Wanted the Robbins Landis, but could not get it shipped to Taiwan for a reasonable price.

Cannot see the "Searching for Haydn" at all, which amazes me. I generally have good resources for stuff like that...

Very good, I think that is a good start for bios. I liked the Stapert, even though the title makes you think of some religious connection, I can assure you there isn't one. It is just a passing reference to Haydn's personal philosophy, which is fair. Stapert walks through a couple of works in a most interesting way: I only wish he had done more that way. I wish I could do that myself. :-\

You have to get lucky on the Landon/Jones book. I found it one day for $15! It's a big book, probably why it costs a lot to ship. But the BIG Landon book is a 5 volume set which can be had for ~$800 US, then you have to ship it. In MY book, that's prohibitive! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on August 05, 2014, 05:24:54 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 05, 2014, 05:10:28 PM

You have to get lucky on the Landon/Jones book. I found it one day for $15!

There's a used, signed copy at Amazon for $18, and a cheaper one on ebay, for anyone interested. Actually, I'm interested, but I just bought two other books, and my eyes are often bigger than my stomach... There's a new Beethoven bio which looks very promising. I came close to adding that to my purchase.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on August 05, 2014, 07:06:17 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 05, 2014, 05:10:28 PM
Very good, I think that is a good start for bios. I liked the Stapert, even though the title makes you think of some religious connection, I can assure you there isn't one. It is just a passing reference to Haydn's personal philosophy, which is fair. Stapert walks through a couple of works in a most interesting way: I only wish he had done more that way. I wish I could do that myself. :-\

You have to get lucky on the Landon/Jones book. I found it one day for $15! It's a big book, probably why it costs a lot to ship. But the BIG Landon book is a 5 volume set which can be had for ~$800 US, then you have to ship it. In MY book, that's prohibitive! :)

8)

I really wish that I had bought that $400 Landon book from that closing music store (the 800-page one on the symphonies). Not that I would have paid anywhere near that, but when I saw that book it was the first time I went to the music store -- before I knew the lady that sold me scores at unspeakably low prices (the last day I calculated $500 worth for a total of $35). The second time I went there it was gone :'( :'(.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on August 05, 2014, 07:10:55 PM

Quote from: EigenUser on August 05, 2014, 07:06:17 PM
I really wish that I had bought that $400 Landon book from that closing music store (the 800-page one on the symphonies). Not that I would have paid anywhere near that, but when I saw that book it was the first time I went to the music store -- before I knew the lady that sold me scores at unspeakably low prices (the last day I calculated $500 worth for a total of $35). The second time I went there it was gone :'( :'(.

That'll learn ya to post where I can get the address.

You missed the big Messiaen sale too. Gawd that was a lot to carry.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on August 05, 2014, 07:16:18 PM

Quote from: Ken B on August 05, 2014, 07:10:55 PM
That'll learn ya to post where I can get the address.

You missed the big Messiaen sale too. Gawd that was a lot to carry.

:'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
(http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-images/Arts/Arts_/Pictures/2008/09/08/score460.jpg)

(sorry, off-topic :-[)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on August 05, 2014, 10:50:23 PM

Quote from: Ken B on August 05, 2014, 11:43:56 AM
Not so fast! I think Flory is arguing that as mankind makes progress we understand more and understand it better. Our understanding of electrical forces is greater than Einstein's, which was greater than Maxwell's which was greater than Faraday's which was greater than Franklin's which was greater than ... and so on. In like manner we progress artistically. Thus Boulez understood music better than Stravinsky who understood it better than Brahms who understood it better than Schubert ...

I think it is completely misguided myself, though I know it drives the thinking of many. I am surprised to see Florestan advance this view.But I am sure he has his reasons.

Not at all. Nevermind, I was just joking in the first post and being provocative in the second. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 06, 2014, 05:00:21 AM

Quote from: Baklavaboy on August 05, 2014, 05:24:54 PM
There's a used, signed copy at Amazon for $18

Well, da Haus remains quite the dangerous place for me . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on August 06, 2014, 11:07:42 AM

Quote from: Baklavaboy on August 03, 2014, 08:24:05 AM
I was doing a comparison between Harnoncourt's and Hogwood's Haydn, and then started listening to Abbado's 100-102 symphonies, and then went through all my CDs, culled all the Haydn discs and put them in a (fairly substantial) pile next to my player...I think it's time for a Haydn binge :)

Add the Abbado/COE Sinfonia Concertante to the pile. Originally coupled with Sym. 96 which is also very fine.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 07, 2014, 06:30:56 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 05, 2014, 05:10:28 PM
You have to get lucky on the Landon/Jones book. I found it one day for $15! It's a big book, probably why it costs a lot to ship. But the BIG Landon book is a 5 volume set which can be had for ~$800 US, then you have to ship it. In MY book, that's prohibitive! :)

8)

Quote from: Baklavaboy on August 05, 2014, 05:24:54 PM
There's a used, signed copy at Amazon for $18, and a cheaper one on ebay, for anyone interested.

Aye, I snapped that one up. There is a copy at the Boston Public Library, which on a time I checked out; that copy has, shall we say, seen some wear. So an $18 copy for mine own library is a deal.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on August 07, 2014, 06:40:10 AM

Congrats on the purchase, Karl. I envy you! Shipping to Taiwan was 250% of the books price, so I couldn't pull the trigger myself. I hope you enjoy it.

Mandryka was right about Scherchen's version of Sym 88. It's magical, literally like the music is taking you somewhere else...
Listening to the Weil 88 now, which is wonderful, but not magical.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on August 07, 2014, 08:03:35 AM

Quote from: Baklavaboy on August 07, 2014, 06:40:10 AM
Congrats on the purchase, Karl. I envy you! Shipping to Taiwan was 250% of the books price, so I couldn't pull the trigger myself. I hope you enjoy it.

Mandryka was right about Scherchen's version of Sym 88. It's magical, literally like the music is taking you somewhere else...
Listening to the Weil 88 now, which is wonderful, but not magical.

The largo's the problem in Scherchen's 88, I really don't know what to think about it. If you can get to symhonyshare check the 88 from Tognett, which is full of characteri. Arbendroth is exceptional as is Weil and Bruggen.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on August 07, 2014, 08:59:09 AM

The largo is taken extremely slow (more than 10 instead of about 6 minutes), but I find the whole thing fascinating...
His 45 is also quite unique, 92 and 49 are very good, whereas the 44 (and several of the "London" set) are marred by subpar execution (audible flubs) and tempi which are off, but not as compelling for me. Another good one is the stereo #100 (unfortunately I am not so fond of the piece...).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on August 07, 2014, 11:18:56 AM

Quote from: Baklavaboy on August 07, 2014, 06:40:10 AM
Congrats on the purchase, Karl. I envy you! Shipping to Taiwan was 250% of the books price, so I couldn't pull the trigger myself. I hope you enjoy it.

Mandryka was right about Scherchen's version of Sym 88. It's magical, literally like the music is taking you somewhere else...
Listening to the Weil 88 now, which is wonderful, but not magical.

That's odd because the cheapest thing in the world to ship is books. They qualify for book rate. A bookseller friend told me if I want to mail a brick it's cheaper if I stamp BOOK on the package ...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on August 07, 2014, 03:13:41 PM

Quote from: EigenUser on August 04, 2014, 02:15:12 AM
[what is it in recordings with PIs that is so appealing to people?

meaning and swing

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 07, 2014, 04:09:00 PM

Quote from: mszczuj on August 07, 2014, 03:13:41 PM
meaning and swing

Simple, yet effective.

Beyond that, it is the fact that usually, 19th century performance practice has been stripped away and there is an element of 18th century sound world. The fact that a 1788 Schantz piano can't sound like a modern Steinway or Bösendorfer doesn't put me off; it thrills me. The fact that a wooden flute with 5 holes can't sound like a 1847 Boehm silver flute makes me feel much much better. And if it couldn't play certain notes, you know what? The composer didn't write those notes! I don't mind. And if gut strings can't really be heard well from the back of the hall, it's because the hall is too big, not the violin is too weak. Haydn's symphony #28 premiered in Esterházy's living room! I'm good with that! :)

And then, there are meaning and swing. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on August 07, 2014, 05:14:40 PM

Quote from: Ken B on August 07, 2014, 11:18:56 AM
That's odd because the cheapest thing in the world to ship is books. They qualify for book rate. A bookseller friend told me if I want to mail a brick it's cheaper if I stamp BOOK on the package ...

The US used to have "International book rate", and books were only about a dollar a pound once you got over 10 pounds. They came by boat, but it was still wonderful for large packages. Around 7 years ago, however, the USPS switched to air only, and prices shot up dramatically. Buying from Ebay, the range of quoted "at cost" shipping prices from sellers varies wildly. Amazon blocks almost all (all but their "prime" partners) from selling second hand books abroad (or to Taiwan, anyway), even if their name is something like "International booksellers" >:( >:(.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 08, 2014, 06:19:36 PM

We have talked about the impending release of this disk a few times here, I finally got it today:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardBobbyMitchellcover_zps2816d1a5.jpg)

Portrait of an Extraordinary Musical Dog by Phillip Reinagle (1805)

If you love the sound of the fortepiano, this is a must-have! Mitchell (he is a 'new talent award winner') is a very fine player indeed, and the selection of music is a fine blend too. He takes 2 sonatas from the 'Dedicated to the Prince' set of 1774, the F and the Eb (Hob 23 & 28), the C major Hob 48, then the Adagio & Variations in F 17:9 and the one in f 17:6. In between each of them he plays a very short chromatic interlude beginning in the key of the previous and ending in the key of the new work. So, F to Eb - Eb to C - C to F and then just dropping down to f minor for the finale. The entire thing is a non-stop 76 minutes. The fortepiano is great, but you have to like fortepianos, you can't be concentrating on 'shit, I would love to hear this on a Steinway' or some such thing. It wouldn't work on one anyway, plus the variety of tonal colors of this instrument is fabulous, and he gets them all out. I'm delighted! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on August 09, 2014, 12:47:10 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 08, 2014, 06:19:36 PM
We have talked about the impending release of this disk a few times here, I finally got it today:

When I was 10 years old, I inherited a half-grown golden retriever pup named Mitchell from a relative.
Although bright for a pup, he could only play show-tunes and some of the easier Wyndham-Hill repertoire. I had heard that Gordon Setters had both better technique and taste, but it took me until now to see definitive proof.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on August 09, 2014, 05:52:34 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 07, 2014, 04:09:00 PM
The fact that a 1788 Schantz piano can't sound like a modern Steinway or Bösendorfer doesn't put me off; it thrills me. The fact that a wooden flute with 5 holes can't sound like a 1847 Boehm silver flute makes me feel much much better. And if it couldn't play certain notes, you know what? The composer didn't write those notes! I don't mind. And if gut strings can't really be heard well from the back of the hall, it's because the hall is too big, not the violin is too weak. Haydn's symphony #28 premiered in Esterházy's living room! I'm good with that! :)

One can be good with that if, and only if, one subscribes to the view that "the medium [ie. the Schantz piano or the wooden flute] is the message". ;D

But obviously there is more to the message than the mere medium. For instance, the most up-to-date HIP performance (oh, the irony!) cannot give you, Gurn, what was back then the basic prerequisite for a full appreciation, and enjoyment, of a Haydn mass: a staunch faith in the truth of the teachings, and the validity of the rituals, of The Roman Catholic Church. ;D

Schantz or Steinway, wooden flute or Boehm flute, one thing is certain: the worldview that informed Haydn's whole being and thought is lost forever and no HIP performance can recreate it anymore. ;D

And if you're going to argue that Haydn's music has an universal message and appeal which does not depend on living and thinking exactly like Haydn (which is true), then I'm going to argue that the same message and appeal does not depend on the music being played on exactly the same instruments like Haydn (which is also true). Because, and I'm sorry to say it, if Haydn's Symphony #28 cannot be truly and fully enjoyed except when heard in the living room of an Austrian aristocrat, played by an orchestra assorted with cooks and footmen as caretaker oboists or cellists, then I have no use for it since these prerequisites are outside my reach. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 09, 2014, 06:00:14 AM

Quote from: Florestan on August 09, 2014, 05:52:34 AM
One can be good with that if, and only if, one subscribes to the view that "the medium [ie. the Schantz piano or the wooden flute] is the message". ;D

But obviously there is more to the message than the mere medium. For instance, the most up-to-date HIP performance (oh, the irony!) cannot give you, Gurn, what was back then the basic prerequisite for a full appreciation, and enjoyment, of a Haydn mass: a staunch faith in the truth of the teachings, and the validity of the rituals, of The Roman Catholic Church. ;D

Schantz or Steinway, wooden flute or Boehm flute, one thing is certain: the worldview that informed Haydn's whole being and thought is lost forever and no HIP performance can recreate it anymore. ;D

And if you're going to argue that Haydn's music has an universal message and appeal which does not depend on living and thinking exactly like Haydn (which is true), then I'm going to argue that the same message and appeal does not depend on the music being played on exactly the same instruments like Haydn (which is also true). Because, and I'm sorry to say it, if Haydn's Symphony #28 cannot be truly and fully enjoyed except when heard in the living room of an Austrian aristocrat, played by an orchestra assorted with cooks and footmen as caretaker oboists or cellists, then I have no use for it since these prerequisites are outside my reach. ;D

The problem with this is I am not making any of those claims, you (apparently) are. All I am saying is that I greatly prefer the sound of authentic instruments, there is nothing written that they can't play, and they (usually) have shed off the ton of shit that the 19th and earlier 20th century put on them in terms of performance style. They even use actual scores, which didn't exist before the 1960's, so how can those old-timers have used them?

Esterházy didn't have anything but professional musicians in his orchestra, some of the best in Europe. As good as or better than some musicians today, I might add with complete confidence in my claim.

I don't give a damn about philosophy, actually, I only care about what I can hear. And I like what I hear. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on August 09, 2014, 06:17:30 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 09, 2014, 06:00:14 AM
they (usually) have shed off the ton of shit that the 19th and earlier 20th century put on them in terms of performance style. They even use actual scores, which didn't exist before the 1960's, so how can those old-timers have used them?

Now wait a minute! If scores didn't exist before 1960, how could anyone prior to that date know what and how to play? One can infer from what you just wrote that prior to 1960's nobody played Haydn the right way, nay, that there wasn't even a way to play Haydn. What am I missing?

Quote
Esterházy didn't have anything but professional musicians in his orchestra, some of the best in Europe. As good as or better than some musicians today, I might add with complete confidence in my claim.

And yet it is you who said, several times, that it was not unusual for a cook or a footman or whatever servant in Eszterhazy's service to replace a professional musician who happened to be ill, or on leave. :D

Quote
I don't give a damn about ~~philosophy~~ modern instruments, actually, I only care about what I can hear. And I like what I hear. :)

There, fixed. ;D

Boy, don't you just love a good fight now and then? :D :P >:D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 09, 2014, 06:32:09 AM

Quote from: Florestan on August 09, 2014, 06:17:30 AM
Now wait a minute! If scores didn't exist before 1960, how could anyone prior to that date know what and how to play? One can infer from what you just wrote that prior to 1960's nobody played Haydn the right way, nay, that there wasn't even a way to play Haydn. What am I missing?

Over the course of the 19th century, dozens of editors 'improved' Haydn's scores, removing the odd little dissonances he always incorporated and completely eliminating anything they didn't understand. I'm not talking some obscure companies here, but places like Breitkopf and Härtel, who supplied performance scores to most of the bands in the world. The mid/late 19th century Big Name conductors were the worst, trying to make Haydn sound like he came after Beethoven instead of before. Also eliminated all repeats, a common problem which destroys the balance of Classical composers, especially Haydn and Mozart. Robbins-Landon began releasing scores based on Haydn's manuscripts in the early 1960's, and they weren't used by big-name conductors for a decade or more afterwards.

QuoteAnd yet it is you who said, several times, that it was not unusual for a cook or a footman or whatever servant in Eszterhazy's service to replace a professional musician who happened to be ill, or on leave. :D

It was commonplace at that time for this to happen. This was because most employers couldn't afford to employ people who did nothing but play music. Esterházy was an exception, he could not only afford musicians, but also singers, a drama company and a marionette performance company who did nothing else, and they ran a full season one summer when he wasn't even there! Haydn's previous employer, Morzin, used other servants as musicians though. He eventually went broke anyway, even though Haydn was possibly his only full-time musician.

QuoteThere, fixed. ;D

Boy, don't you just love a good fight now and then? :D :P >:D

Actually both are correct. I don't care about philosophy; life is too short, rather live it than ponder it. Modern instruments are great for modern (post 1828) music. 0:)

Are we fighting? I thought I was just wising you up. >:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 09, 2014, 01:22:04 PM

At first sight to purchase this doesn't look as a terrible mistake: 8)

La lira di Napoli (Haydn, Pleyel, Orgitano, Mozart)
Ensemble Baroque de Limoges
Christophe Coin

(http://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/20/00/0810473010020_600.jpg)

http://www.qobuz.com/fr-fr/album/la-lira-di-napoli-haydn-pleyel-orgitano-mozart-ensemble-baroque-de-limoges-christophe-coin/0810473010020

I think several of us have this one:

(http://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/44/51/3760169005144_600.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 09, 2014, 02:03:01 PM

Quote from: Gordo on August 09, 2014, 01:22:04 PM
At first sight to purchase this doesn't look as a terrible mistake: 8)

La lira di Napoli (Haydn, Pleyel, Orgitano, Mozart)
Ensemble Baroque de Limoges
Christophe Coin

(http://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/20/00/0810473010020_600.jpg)

http://www.qobuz.com/fr-fr/album/la-lira-di-napoli-haydn-pleyel-orgitano-mozart-ensemble-baroque-de-limoges-christophe-coin/0810473010020

I think several of us have this one:

(http://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/44/51/3760169005144_600.jpg)

I certainly had no regrets. It is even interesting to hear what other composers were doing for Lira. Of course, the Mozart was actually not Mozart, it was an attributed piece by Sterkel. Still, interesting. As for Delirium, it is one of the more interesting projects done (be)for(e) the Haydn year. Not quite the caliber of Beghin's sonata set, but down the same path, considering they built the instruments just for these recordings. Everyone should buy them just to help them recoup such a bold investment! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 09, 2014, 03:02:25 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 09, 2014, 02:03:01 PM
... [of Beghin's sonata set] Everyone should buy them just to help them recoup such a bold investment! :)

I did it! Twice! Firstly, I bought the blu-ray set and then the CD set. I'm completely happy with both of them. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 09, 2014, 04:01:37 PM

Quote from: Gordo on August 09, 2014, 03:02:25 PM
I did it! Twice! Firstly, I bought the blu-ray set and then the CD set. I'm completely happy with both of them. :)

Excellent. I am going to get the Blu-Ray and just put it on the shelf until I upgrade my hardware. My DVD is still going strong, so I haven't considered to dump it yet. Still, just having it on the shelf makes the point. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 09, 2014, 04:09:42 PM

I also received this disk yesterday, a question about which began this latest keyboard spasm:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardLudgerReacutemycover_zps13301085.jpg)

As I suspected, the 1794 Broadwood has a very colorful sound. It is rich for a fortepiano, but not as much as it would have been 10-15 years later. Rémy is a very good player, although this performance doesn't exceed such as Cooper or Brautigam, both of whom kill in this piece. If you are a collector of PI Keyboard disks, certainly you will want this. If you are looking for the definitive version of Haydn's last sonata, this isn't it, I probably already have IT and just haven't realized it yet. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 09, 2014, 04:12:59 PM

Quote from: Baklavaboy on August 09, 2014, 12:47:10 AM
When I was 10 years old, I inherited a half-grown golden retriever pup named Mitchell from a relative.
Although bright for a pup, he could only play show-tunes and some of the easier Wyndham-Hill repertoire. I had heard that Gordon Setters had both better technique and taste, but it took me until now to see definitive proof.

:)

Thanks for the ID; I was thinking some sort of spaniel perhaps, although they are notorious for dropping notes, and at the worst times. I just figured they may have been better in 1805... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on August 09, 2014, 08:13:57 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 09, 2014, 04:12:59 PM
I just figured they may have been better in 1805... :-\

Perhaps a lost strain, or maybe keyboard technique faded when they began breeding for card-playing...

By the way, I'm on page 115 of this thread. How did it get to be such a monster? The other major composers threads are just 1/4 or so of this length... Nice blog, by the way! I am very antsy to read a bio, but all I could download was an 1898 and a 1902. I'm trying to resist.

Also, I'm having a weird response to the Bruno Weil. I find listening to them to be like nibbling candy or watching old cartoons: it's delightful while I'm doing so, but leaves almost no memory behind. Listening to Beaux Arts Trio now. Excellent, but so are the other trios I've played...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on August 09, 2014, 11:16:39 PM

Quote from: Baklavaboy on August 09, 2014, 08:13:57 PM
By the way, I'm on page 115 of this thread. How did it get to be such a monster? The other major composers threads are just 1/4 or so of this length...

The other major composers don't have Gurn to generate conversation points.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on August 09, 2014, 11:45:23 PM

Quote from: orfeo on August 09, 2014, 11:16:39 PM
The other major composers don't have Gurn to generate conversation points.

Yeah, that's probably the key. I took a gander at the Mozart thread, and not only did the OP immediately abandon the thread, apparently some joker made a lot of trouble and had to have his posts excised (somewhere in the early pages)...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on August 10, 2014, 03:29:19 AM

Quote from: orfeo on August 09, 2014, 11:16:39 PM
The other major composers don't have Gurn to generate conversation points.

Quote from: Baklavaboy on August 09, 2014, 11:45:23 PM
Yeah, that's probably the key. I took a gander at the Mozart thread, and not only did the OP immediately abandon the thread, apparently some joker made a lot of trouble and had to have his posts excised (somewhere in the early pages)...

There is Gurn, but there is also a general appreciation for Haydn. He seems to be far more popular than Mozart on GMG (maybe people don't want to admit it, but that seems to be the case just by reading threads).

I'd love to have that going for the Ligeti thread, but there isn't enough enthusiasm for his music here. Surprisingly, most people on GMG seem to think rather highly of him, but only listen in small doses (which is, of course, totally understandable!). I'd also like to see more action on the Ockeghem thread I started (I can't believe there wasn't one until 2014!!), but I guess renaissance music is also of limited interest.

Then there are James and Uatu on the Stockhausen thread... Even though I don't like most of his music, it is a very interesting place for discussion and I've even discovered two or three works that I really like.

Also, keep in mind how large Haydn's output is compared to these other guys. As Simon Rattle put it, "He is the greatest composer that we don't know. What we have is the tip of the iceberg." I'm sure that also has a lot to do with the size of this thread.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 10, 2014, 06:26:54 AM

Quote from: EigenUser on August 10, 2014, 03:29:19 AM
There is Gurn, but there is also a general appreciation for Haydn. He seems to be far more popular than Mozart on GMG (maybe people don't want to admit it, but that seems to be the case just by reading threads).

Quote from: orfeo on August 09, 2014, 11:16:39 PM
The other major composers don't have Gurn to generate conversation points.

Back on '03 when I first started here, Haydn's status was distinctly different than it is now. The prevailing attitude was to either ignore him, else to subscribe to the disgusting canard that his only music worth listening to were the Paris and London symphonies, Op 20, 33 & 76 quartets, the very last piano trios and sonatas and the late Masses. But we gradually got a new crop of members, people like Sarge who were not only knowledgeable but already well into Haydn's music beyond those works. As for me, all I have ever done is to shine a spotlight into the darker corners and drag out the great amount of stuff which many of us had never heard about, and also to be available to give factual information when asked. With a composer as great as Haydn, this is all that is needed to put him on a level footing, his music does the rest. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on August 10, 2014, 06:43:05 AM

Quote from: EigenUser on August 10, 2014, 03:29:19 AM
There is Gurn, but there is also a general appreciation for Haydn. He seems to be far more popular than Mozart on GMG (maybe people don't want to admit it, but that seems to be the case just by reading threads).

That really is an irritation for me because I love both composers. When Gurn and I first started posting here, Haydn was highly underrepresented. It's not all Gurn. Sarge, Karl, Larry and Molman did alot to elevate Haydn's status on this board. I find it amusing that Gurn unintentionally did more to devalue Mozart on this forum than Iago ever could. :D

What I especially love about both composers is how they compliment each other. If one is poor at one genre, the other is usually strong.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on August 10, 2014, 07:02:41 AM

Quote from: DavidW on August 10, 2014, 06:43:05 AM
That really is an irritation for me because I love both composers. When Gurn and I first started posting here, Haydn was highly underrepresented. It's not all Gurn. Sarge, Karl, Larry and Molman did alot to elevate Haydn's status on this board. I find it amusing that Gurn unintentionally did more to devalue Mozart on this forum than Iago ever could. :D

What I especially love about both composers is how they compliment each other. If one is poor at one genre, the other is usually strong.

From other sites I've participated in, just having a good moderators presence--nipping nastiness in the bud, keeping the tone neighborly and productive--can make a big difference.

Back to Haydn talk, I put on a Staier disc

[asin]B0007AC1GO[/asin]

and semi-accidentally listened to it 3X. Wonderful. I've heard people describe Staier as "uneven", but I find it hard to believe. I have his DHM 10 disc box and his Haydn, and have loved every note I've heard.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 10, 2014, 07:22:59 AM

Quote from: DavidW on August 10, 2014, 06:43:05 AM
That really is an irritation for me because I love both composers. When Gurn and I first started posting here, Haydn was highly underrepresented. It's not all Gurn. Sarge, Karl, Larry and Molman did alot to elevate Haydn's status on this board. I find it amusing that Gurn unintentionally did more to devalue Mozart on this forum than Iago ever could. :D

What I especially love about both composers is how they compliment each other. If one is poor at one genre, the other is usually strong.

Both compliment AND complement. As you say. As you are one of the few who knows, I could have just as easily done with Mozart what I do with Haydn. I just never felt he needed a boost, everyone loves Mozart (except for Newman). Anyway, did you read my post? Hope so.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 10, 2014, 07:25:22 AM

Quote from: Baklavaboy on August 10, 2014, 07:02:41 AM
From other sites I've participated in, just having a good moderators presence--nipping nastiness in the bud, keeping the tone neighborly and productive--can make a big difference.

Back to Haydn talk, I put on a Staier disc

[asin]B0007AC1GO[/asin]

and semi-accidentally listened to it 3X. Wonderful. I've heard people describe Staier as "uneven", but I find it hard to believe. I have his DHM 10 disc box and his Haydn, and have loved every note I've heard.

I love Staier's Haydn, I have the 3 individual disks which make up that set.

It's funny, as many of Staier's recordings as I have, you would think the unevenness would have showed up by now, somewhere... ::)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on August 10, 2014, 07:26:10 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 10, 2014, 07:22:59 AM
Both compliment AND complement. As you say. As you are one of the few who knows, I could have just as easily done with Mozart what I do with Haydn. I just never felt he needed a boost, everyone loves Mozart (except for Newman). Anyway, did you read my post? Hope so.... :)

8)

Yeah, I don't subscribe to the "Mozart industry". :D

:laugh:

A long time ago I saw the thread where he got chased off of GMG. That guy seemed certifiable! And I don't mean as a musicologist...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 10, 2014, 07:30:56 AM

Quote from: EigenUser on August 10, 2014, 07:26:10 AM
Yeah, I don't subscribe to the "Mozart industry". :D

:laugh:

A long time ago I saw the thread where he got chased off of GMG. That guy seemed certifiable! And I don't mean as a musicologist...

I would sign the certificate myself. In one of the posts that's gone, he freely admitted, almost boasted, that he knew nothing about music theory or structure. He couldn't tell Mozart from Haydn and claimed no one could, which didn't matter since neither of them wrote any of their own music anyway. Does that one tiny example of logic tell you anything? :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 10, 2014, 10:25:59 AM

Well, I suppose this will be another unintended dagger through Mozart's heart... :D

1776 brought some big changes to Eszterháza. It also brought Haydn's only autobiographical note. I look at both of them in my new essay. Have a look!

I was born in 1733... ummm 1732! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/08/1776-the-year-change-was-in-the-air.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 10, 2014, 05:15:00 PM

Quote from: DavidW on August 10, 2014, 06:43:05 AMI find it amusing that Gurn unintentionally did more to devalue Mozart on this forum than Iago ever could. :D

Ha!! I had forgotten about Iago's rants. He and Newman...two peas in a pod. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 11, 2014, 04:04:21 AM

Save Iago you knew was in his right mind. Somewhere in there 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on August 11, 2014, 06:13:31 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 10, 2014, 10:25:59 AM
Well, I suppose this will be another unintended dagger through Mozart's heart... :D

1776 brought some big changes to Eszterháza. It also brought Haydn's only autobiographical note. I look at both of them in my new essay. Have a look!

I was born in 1733... ummm 1732! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/08/1776-the-year-change-was-in-the-air.html)

Thanks!
8)

Pedantische Berlinern!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 11, 2014, 06:15:08 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on August 11, 2014, 04:04:21 AM
Save Iago you knew was in his right mind. Somewhere in there 8)

0:) 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on August 11, 2014, 06:22:44 AM

My Kuijken symphonies arrived today. No.82 has been keeping me company several times.

I didn't even notice the harpsichord continuo until the second movement. I thought "hang on, that's what causes raging debates about authenticity?". Of course there might be other recordings where it's a good deal less subtle, but so far it isn't upsetting me in the slightest even though I've not encountered it before.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: springrite on August 11, 2014, 06:23:16 AM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on August 10, 2014, 05:15:00 PM
Ha!! I had forgotten about Iago's rants. He and Newman...two peas in a pod. :D

Intended or not, I am sure he won't appreciate it (I sure know him, hehee) but I will let him know!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on August 11, 2014, 06:26:39 AM

Folks, Iago is dead. De mortuis nil nisi bene.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: springrite on August 11, 2014, 06:31:56 AM

Quote from: Florestan on August 11, 2014, 06:26:39 AM
Folks, Iago is dead. De mortuis nil nisi bene.

Yes, we know. He was a good friend and a very much misunderstood soul, with a very good core that few got to know.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on August 11, 2014, 06:34:16 AM

Quote from: springrite on August 11, 2014, 06:31:56 AM
:(
Yes, we know. He was a good friend and a very much misunderstood soul, with a very good core that few got to know.

That was exactly my point.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 11, 2014, 06:40:28 AM

God rest his soul. I hope the angels are playing Mozart for him.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: springrite on August 11, 2014, 06:41:48 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on August 11, 2014, 06:40:28 AM
God rest his soul. I hope the angels are playing Mozart for him.

I hope so because Wagner, which he prefers, is played in the other place...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 11, 2014, 06:43:50 AM

Quote from: springrite on August 11, 2014, 06:41:48 AM
I hope so because Wagner, which he prefers, is played in the other place...

8)

I think that in heaven, he will find he actually likes Mozart . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: springrite on August 11, 2014, 06:48:46 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on August 11, 2014, 06:43:50 AM
8)

I think that in heaven, he will find he actually likes Mozart . . . .

Well, it just kind of goes with the ambience.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on August 11, 2014, 06:49:52 AM

Quote from: springrite on August 11, 2014, 06:48:46 AM
Well, it just kind of goes with the ambience.

What about Debussy's Sirenes from the Trois Nocturnes??

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on August 11, 2014, 06:53:22 AM

Quote from: springrite on August 11, 2014, 06:41:48 AM
I hope so because Wagner, which he prefers, is played in the other place...

Quote from: karlhenning on August 11, 2014, 06:43:50 AM
8)

I think that in heaven, he will find he actually likes Mozart . . . .

The apokatastasis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apokatastasis) will reunite the three of them. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 11, 2014, 06:57:51 AM

Quote from: Florestan on August 11, 2014, 06:53:22 AM
The apokatastasis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apokatastasis) will reunite the three of them. :D

:)

Aye, I consider a dislike of Mozart to be an unfortunate side-effect of our fallen nature 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on August 11, 2014, 06:59:29 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on August 11, 2014, 06:57:51 AM
:)

Aye, I consider a dislike of Mozart to be an unfortunate side-effect of our fallen nature 8)

Excellent! No, I really mean it, excellent one! 8) 8) 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 11, 2014, 07:18:32 AM

Quote from: orfeo on August 11, 2014, 06:22:44 AM
My Kuijken symphonies arrived today. No.82 has been keeping me company several times.

I didn't even notice the harpsichord continuo until the second movement. I thought "hang on, that's what causes raging debates about authenticity?". Of course there might be other recordings where it's a good deal less subtle, but so far it isn't upsetting me in the slightest even though I've not encountered it before.

:) That's been my feeling all along. It's different, a little bit, but certainly not a deal killer. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 11, 2014, 04:11:29 PM

Quote from: springrite on August 11, 2014, 06:31:56 AM
:(
Yes, we know. He was a good friend and a very much misunderstood soul, with a very good core that few got to know.

I meant no disrespect, springrite. Please see PM. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 13, 2014, 05:49:17 PM

Seems like in pursuing our interest in newest recordings (and I'm all for that!) we sometimes let older ones slip through the cracks. These are from late '80's early '90's. I have seen very few (if any) mentions of this artist in these pages:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardOdiagaVol2cover_zps7ed33c53.jpg)

but I got this disk today, my 8th in her cycle, and like the previous 7 it is very nice indeed! She plays the entire cycle on a 1790 Walter reproduction fortepiano, nice sounding, and has a great touch. Of course, Haydn wrote almost all of his keyboard works for women, and they somehow seem to feel better to me when played by a woman, although I can't imagine how that feminine approach could be accounted for by a composer! Anyway, the first three disks are on Titanic Records (and no, they haven't gone under!) and the remainder can often be picked up for a song at BRO or AMP. Have a go at one, you might like them. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Cato on August 16, 2014, 02:38:29 PM

If anyone has not visited Gurn's website about Haydn, called Haydnseek ??? ??? ???, you are missing a treat!

See especially the essays called The Era of Impure Symphonies. :o :o :o 8) 8) 8)

Great stuff, which will interest you in listening to Haydn's symphonies!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 16, 2014, 04:01:23 PM

Quote from: Cato on August 16, 2014, 02:38:29 PM
If anyone has not visited Gurn's website about Haydn, called Haydnseek ??? ??? ???, you are missing a treat!

See especially the essays called The Era of Impure Symphonies. :o :o :o 8) 8) 8)

Great stuff, which will interest you in listening to Haydn's symphonies!

Thank you kindly, Mr. Cato. We at Da Haus are aiming for eventual world domination, so every blurb helps! Bwa-ha-ha! >:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2014, 09:26:00 AM

I'm rapidly becoming familiar with some things I never was before. This essay looks at how Hanswurst Singspiel arose from Italian Commedia dell'arte, and what that has to do with Haydn. Who knew? :) Check it out, if you will. There are some symphonies there too!

Hanswurst, you naughty boy! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/08/1776-the-music-.html)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on August 17, 2014, 11:30:33 PM

This big boy finally rolled in from Germany ;D ;D
[asin] B001FY7BFC[/asin]
The sound is wonderful, and the performances in the disks I've played so far seem very good. I'm listening to the Piano Concerto disk now--all names I don't know, but I like what I hear. I'm also about 1/4 of the way through the Calvin Stapert. It is pleasant reading, with an agreeable, professorial tone that makes up for in enthusiasm what it lacks in style (I don't mean he is in any way a bad writer, but it's an academic book, with pedagogical rather than literary aims). It's raining out, and I have many hours of (paid) proofreading to do, so it is very nice to sit in my study, listen to the disks, and poor red ink over some pretty miserable graduate papers...

Edit: The recording quality of the Buchberger SQs is stellar. I won't pretend to know enough to judge their playing ability in comparison with others, but if I close my eyes it's like they are in the room with me. I could listen to this all day (and just might!!)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 18, 2014, 02:43:19 AM

Quote from: Baklavaboy on August 17, 2014, 11:30:33 PM
This big boy finally rolled in from Germany ;D ;D
[asin] B001FY7BFC[/asin]
The sound is wonderful, and the performances in the disks I've played so far seem very good. I'm listening to the Piano Concerto disk now--all names I don't know, but I like what I hear. I'm also about 1/4 of the way through the Calvin Stapert. It is pleasant reading, with an agreeable, professorial tone that makes up for in enthusiasm what it lacks in style (I don't mean he is in any way a bad writer, but it's an academic book, with pedagogical rather than literary aims). It's raining out, and I have many hours of (paid) proofreading to do, so it is very nice to sit in my study, listen to the disks, and poor red ink over some pretty miserable graduate papers...

Edit: The recording quality of the Buchberger SQs is stellar. I won't pretend to know enough to judge their playing ability in comparison with others, but if I close my eyes it's like they are in the room with me. I could listen to this all day (and just might!!)

Nice purchase! 8)
And I'm a big fan of the Buchberger Quartet's recordings, well at least the 4 individual opus recordings I've heard. A little aggressive, a little playful, a lot of joy. That's how I always heard them. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 18, 2014, 05:37:02 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2014, 09:26:00 AMCheck it out, if you will. There are some symphonies there too!

You say two, but Wiki says there are three versions of 54 (the claimed second version adds another bassoon and timps to the score, the third flute and trumpets):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._54_(Haydn)

I can't find any other source (i.e., liner notes) confirming three instead of two versions. Do you know why the author makes this claim?

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 18, 2014, 05:46:46 AM

Might it be a quibble over what makes a "version"? Per your post in WAYLT (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21492.msg823623.html#msg823623), Sarge, the addition of an Adagio maestoso introduction argues a distinct version. If the composition itself be unchanged (my conditional here is purely a matter of discussion, and speculative), would addition of another bassoon and timpani really be another version?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 18, 2014, 06:05:20 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on August 18, 2014, 05:46:46 AM
Might it be a quibble over what makes a "version"? Per your post in WAYLT (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21492.msg823623.html#msg823623), Sarge, the addition of an Adagio maestoso introduction argues a distinct version. If the composition itself be unchanged (my conditional here is purely a matter of discussion, and speculative), would addition of another bassoon and timpani really be another version?

Good point.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 18, 2014, 07:14:04 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 18, 2014, 05:37:02 AM
You say two, but Wiki says there are three versions of 54 (the claimed second version adds another bassoon and timps to the score, the third flute and trumpets):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._54_(Haydn)

I can't find any other source (i.e., liner notes) confirming three instead of two versions. Do you know why the author makes this claim?

Sarge

It is still a point of dispute. Sonja Gerlach, the author of what I call the New Chronology, disputes that the additions were spread out over a 15 year period. She says they were made all at the same time, which would eliminate version #2. The only real difference between 2 & 3 would be the 2nd flute, and Haydn could have added that for a specific outside orchestra, like the monastery where the score was found (Lambach, IIRC). In other words, they didn't just end up with an enhanced version, it may have been re-composed for them because they had the personnel necessary. Robbins-Landon argues for the 'spread out' scenario, but he doesn't support it with any documentation, merely that the symphony was played in London, so he must have redone it then with the 2nd flute. There is no recording I'm aware of using a single flute, with or without the introduction and/or the timpani. So any alleged actual version 2 is merely hinted at. FWIW, Hogwood plays what would be Version 3 for 1776, on the advice of Webster who appears to have accepted Gerlach at face value. That leaves Robbins-Landon sort of twisting in the wind. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus - SHOSTY'S HAYDNESQUE OP.101-
Post by: snyprrr on August 18, 2014, 07:33:02 AM

aNY THOUGHTS ON sHOSTAKOVICH'S VERY hAYDNESQUE (sorry) String Quartet No.6 Op.101? Any preferences? I was lamenting that newer bands just don't play the line the way the old fashioned groups used to do. The legato line seems to be missing from the newer ones. They just don't play 'em that way anymore?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus - SHOSTY'S HAYDNESQUE OP.101-
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 18, 2014, 07:38:11 AM

Quote from: snyprrr on August 18, 2014, 07:33:02 AM
aNY THOUGHTS ON sHOSTAKOVICH'S VERY hAYDNESQUE (sorry) String Quartet No.6 Op.101? Any preferences? I was lamenting that newer bands just don't play the line the way the old fashioned groups used to do. The legato line seems to be missing from the newer ones. They just don't play 'em that way anymore?

I don't find it particularly Haydnesque, Haydn actually used a modest amount of dissonance, but not like DSCH. You might try a Beethoven thread, I think DSCH was emulating late Beethoven rather than Haydn. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus - SHOSTY'S HAYDNESQUE OP.101-
Post by: EigenUser on August 18, 2014, 07:53:43 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 18, 2014, 07:38:11 AM
I don't find it particularly Haydnesque, Haydn actually used a modest amount of dissonance, but not like DSCH. You might try a Beethoven thread, I think DSCH was emulating late Beethoven rather than Haydn. :)

8)

Shosti's Symphony No. 9 is like a Haydn symphony with a few wrong notes (like the G-flat in the opening phrase) :D.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 18, 2014, 07:58:10 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 18, 2014, 07:14:04 AM
It is still a point of dispute. Sonja Gerlach, the author of what I call the New Chronology, disputes that the additions were spread out over a 15 year period. She says they were made all at the same time, which would eliminate version #2. The only real difference between 2 & 3 would be the 2nd flute, and Haydn could have added that for a specific outside orchestra, like the monastery where the score was found (Lambach, IIRC). In other words, they didn't just end up with an enhanced version, it may have been re-composed for them because they had the personnel necessary. Robbins-Landon argues for the 'spread out' scenario, but he doesn't support it with any documentation, merely that the symphony was played in London, so he must have redone it then with the 2nd flute. There is no recording I'm aware of using a single flute, with or without the introduction and/or the timpani. So any alleged actual version 2 is merely hinted at. FWIW, Hogwood plays what would be Version 3 for 1776, on the advice of Webster who appears to have accepted Gerlach at face value. That leaves Robbins-Landon sort of twisting in the wind. :-\

8)

Haydn is never easy, is he ;D

So Landon thinks it's like this?

Version 1 (1774) - 2 Oboes, 1 Bassoon, 2 Horns & Strings
Version 2 (1776) - 2 Oboes, 2 Bassoons, 2 Horns, Timpani & Strings
Version 3 (1790s) - 2 Flutes, 2 Oboes, 2 Bassoons, 2 Horns, 2 Trumpets, Timpani & Strings

And Gerlach thinks the added instruments, including trumpets and flutes, were added in 1776?

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 18, 2014, 08:06:07 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 18, 2014, 07:58:10 AM
Haydn is never easy, is he ;D

So Landon thinks it's like this?

Version 1 (1774) - 2 Oboes, 1 Bassoon, 2 Horns & Strings
Version 2 (1776) - 2 Oboes, 2 Bassoons, 2 Horns, Timpani & Strings
Version 3 (1790s) - 2 Flutes, 2 Oboes, 2 Bassoons, 2 Horns, 2 Trumpets, Timpani & Strings

And Gerlach thinks the added instruments, including trumpets and flutes, were added in 1776?

Sarge

Pretty much so, although 1 flute in V2, I think. Also the introduction added in 1776. Of course, Eszterháza docs are burned up from that period, so reliance is on contemporaneous manuscripts from monasteries and the like. Also, and quite important, Landon was working in the 1950's-70's, while Gerlach and Webster were working in the 1990's. A lot of academic water under the bridge in those 20+ years. I have a lot of confidence in Webster. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 18, 2014, 08:26:45 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 18, 2014, 08:06:07 AM
Pretty much so, although 1 flute in V2, I think. Also the introduction added in 1776. Of course, Eszterháza docs are burned up from that period, so reliance is on contemporaneous manuscripts from monasteries and the like. Also, and quite important, Landon was working in the 1950's-70's, while Gerlach and Webster were working in the 1990's. A lot of academic water under the bridge in those 20+ years. I have a lot of confidence in Webster. :)

8)

Okay, so I have to choose between Landon and Gerlach/Webster in order to list Fey's 54 in my CD catalogue ;D Decisions, decisions (but I'm leaning towards three versions instead of two).

QuoteFor you who like to compare versions, it is especially nice to have the Academy of Ancient Music's set of recordings, since you can hear them by the same band. I would be interested to know which was the fan favorite after all!

I prefer the version with trumpets. Hogwood's original 54 (the only one I own or have heard) might be prejudicing my opinion though. His performance is so laid-back, so understated, it verges on being blah. I think Goodman might have made a better case for it...had his cycle continued :( Are there any other versions of the original you could recommend?

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 18, 2014, 10:05:34 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 18, 2014, 08:26:45 AM
Okay, so I have to choose between Landon and Gerlach/Webster in order to list Fey's 54 in my CD catalogue ;D Decisions, decisions (but I'm leaning towards three versions instead of two).

I prefer the version with trumpets. Hogwood's original 54 (the only one I own or have heard) might be prejudicing my opinion though. His performance is so laid-back, so understated, it verges on being blah. I think Goodman might have made a better case for it...had his cycle continued :( Are there any other versions of the original you could recommend?

Sarge

Well, no, in fact I removed a caption from that disk picture which basically said 'I wouldn't keep recommending this disk if anyone else had recorded these works'. That includes #61 too. Of course, there may be some non-PI, but I wouldn't know that... :-\

I like the original version, starting right out with the horn Presto. For a stripped down instrumentation, it still sounds pretty rich. But it's true, the second version is more popular, and reasonably so. :)

8)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 18, 2014, 06:13:27 PM

Well, I was feeling brave tonight, brave for me, at least. In all the years I've been collecting CD's, I have never bought direct from Japan before. However, I have been looking for this disk for a long time over here, and never able to find it:

[asin]B000JVS3PE[/asin]

There have always been those Japan offers, so this time I went ahead and pulled the trigger. This is the only Kuijken SQ Haydn disks I don't have; well, there are only 3 anyway (I have the 2-fer of Op 76), and curiosity finally overwhelmed me. So, we'll see. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on August 18, 2014, 06:25:16 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 18, 2014, 06:13:27 PM
Well, I was feeling brave tonight, brave for me, at least. In all the years I've been collecting CD's, I have never bought direct from Japan before. However, I have been looking for this disk for a long time over here, and never able to find it:

[asin]B000JVS3PE[/asin]

There have always been those Japan offers, so this time I went ahead and pulled the trigger. This is the only Kuijken SQ Haydn disks I don't have; well, there are only 3 anyway (I have the 2-fer of Op 76), and curiosity finally overwhelmed me. So, we'll see. :)

8)

Lucky you! I really want to get several things from Amazon jp, but they won't sell to me. I guess it has to do with my Taiwan address >:( :'(
Amazon UK and .de have me on speed dial 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 18, 2014, 06:30:30 PM

Quote from: Baklavaboy on August 18, 2014, 06:25:16 PM
Lucky you! I really want to get several things from Amazon jp, but they won't sell to me. I guess it has to do with my Taiwan address >:( :'(
Amazon UK and .de have me on speed dial 8)

Really? I know there is political trouble between China and Japan now (and always, of course), and anything to do with Taiwan drives China crazy, I guess I just hadn't extended that concept to something as mundane as music. Which is to say, since Japan is so geographically close, I thought your stores would be stocked with goods from there. Naivete strikes me again. :-[

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on August 18, 2014, 07:02:23 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 18, 2014, 06:30:30 PM
Really? I know there is political trouble between China and Japan now (and always, of course), and anything to do with Taiwan drives China crazy, I guess I just hadn't extended that concept to something as mundane as music. Which is to say, since Japan is so geographically close, I thought your stores would be stocked with goods from there. Naivete strikes me again. :-[

8)

It's not China-related, I don't think. Taiwan and Japan do tons of business together. My guess is it's just a trade-tariff reciprocity thing. Japan is notorious for finding nitpicky reasons to block imports from other countries (unless it is handled by their own local BIG companies, so they can get a big slice), so it might be Taiwan doing a tit-for-tat block of stuff from Japan. Or, something else altogether.... for example, I can't buy from US Amazon "marketplace" sellers (even if they list foreign shipping price), although Amazon itself will sell and ship to me. Their only explanation was "Cannot ship to island countries"--WTF >:(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 18, 2014, 07:18:56 PM

Funny how things work. I've had this live Brüggen Creation for years and have always liked it but tonight I suppose my mood is just right and at the moment I'm finding it sublime. I especially love the burnished sound of the orchestra...and GREAT soloists. Fantastically recorded.

Now I'm wondering what Brüggen's Seven Last Words is like...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71KHRphdMmL._SL500_SX450_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 18, 2014, 07:28:03 PM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on August 18, 2014, 07:18:56 PM
Funny how things work. I've had this live Brüggen Creation for years and have always liked it but tonight I suppose my mood is just right and at the moment I'm finding it sublime. I especially love the burnished sound of the orchestra...and GREAT soloists. Fantastically recorded.

Now I'm wondering what Brüggen's Seasons is like...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71KHRphdMmL._SL500_SX450_.jpg)

Intriguing, I didn't even know he recorded those two oratorios.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 18, 2014, 07:48:23 PM

Quote from: Gordo on August 18, 2014, 07:28:03 PM
Intriguing, I didn't even know he recorded those two oratorios.

Oh, whoops, I meant the Seven Last Words.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on August 18, 2014, 08:08:40 PM

Quote from: Baklavaboy on August 18, 2014, 07:02:23 PM
It's not China-related, I don't think. Taiwan and Japan do tons of business together. My guess is it's just a trade-tariff reciprocity thing. Japan is notorious for finding nitpicky reasons to block imports from other countries (unless it is handled by their own local BIG companies, so they can get a big slice), so it might be Taiwan doing a tit-for-tat block of stuff from Japan. Or, something else altogether.... for example, I can't buy from US Amazon "marketplace" sellers (even if they list foreign shipping price), although Amazon itself will sell and ship to me. Their only explanation was "Cannot ship to island countries"--WTF >:(

I keep tellin' ya, you need a Michigan shipping address!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on August 18, 2014, 09:01:36 PM

Quote from: Ken B on August 18, 2014, 08:08:40 PM
I keep tellin' ya, you need a Michigan shipping address!

You come visit me in Taiwan, and bring all the stuff, and I'll send it to you!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2014, 04:21:18 AM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on August 18, 2014, 07:18:56 PM
Funny how things work. I've had this live Brüggen Creation for years and have always liked it but tonight I suppose my mood is just right and at the moment I'm finding it sublime. I especially love the burnished sound of the orchestra...and GREAT soloists. Fantastically recorded.

Now I'm wondering what Brüggen's Seven Last Words is like...

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71KHRphdMmL._SL500_SX450_.jpg)

I played his 7 Last Words just the other night, in fact. The only good comparison I have is to Savall, since PI recordings of SLW are rare indeed. IMO, Savall has more depth, both in the way they respond to the meaning of the music and in the depth of the sound. You know, Haydn was nuts for bass, when he said 'basso' in his score, he meant every bass instrument you could find. Savall takes that to heart, Brüggen, not so much. It's still a fine performance, but if I had to choose, Savall is a clear winner.

That said, I've been trying to buy that Creation for 3 years now and the rare copies I come across are priced ut of line with reality. I already have 10+ PI Creations, so paying a million dollars for another hasn't seemed like a priority. I might do it someday, your reaction is duly noted. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 19, 2014, 09:17:40 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2014, 04:21:18 AM
I played his 7 Last Words just the other night, in fact. The only good comparison I have is to Savall, since PI recordings of SLW are rare indeed. IMO, Savall has more depth, both in the way they respond to the meaning of the music and in the depth of the sound. You know, Haydn was nuts for bass, when he said 'basso' in his score, he meant every bass instrument you could find. Savall takes that to heart, Brüggen, not so much. It's still a fine performance, but if I had to choose, Savall is a clear winner.

Thanks, Gurn. Wishlisted for sure.

QuoteThat said, I've been trying to buy that Creation for 3 years now and the rare copies I come across are priced ut of line with reality. I already have 10+ PI Creations, so paying a million dollars for another hasn't seemed like a priority. I might do it someday, your reaction is duly noted. :)

I don't have the Haydn knowledge to know which works require the "basso" effect and which works don't but it's interesting to hear you talk of that Gurn because one of the things that stood out to me in Brüggen's Creation was the wonderfully deep low end. I don't think I've ever heard a Haydn work with such low lows. Definitely added to the enjoyment of my listening (and the clarity of the Philips recording is amazing).

Any other works which call for this "basso" effect? The late/early masses? And can you name some recordings which capture this effectively? :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 19, 2014, 09:24:43 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2014, 04:21:18 AM
I played his 7 Last Words just the other night, in fact. The only good comparison I have is to Savall, since PI recordings of SLW are rare indeed. IMO, Savall has more depth, both in the way they respond to the meaning of the music and in the depth of the sound. You know, Haydn was nuts for bass, when he said 'basso' in his score, he meant every bass instrument you could find. Savall takes that to heart, Brüggen, not so much. It's still a fine performance, but if I had to choose, Savall is a clear winner.

I did pick up that DVD! Have yet to watch it. Watching it will be the reward when I have finished the Henning Op.123!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on August 19, 2014, 03:07:31 PM

I snagged a reasonably priced copy of Brüggen's Creation and greatly enjoyed it. Hopefully it will be reissued so more people can hear it.

(Disclaimer: I am not any sort of expert on this piece. Gardiner is my only other recording.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2014, 03:09:31 PM

Quote from: Pat B on August 19, 2014, 03:07:31 PM
I snagged a reasonably priced copy of Brüggen's Creation and greatly enjoyed it. Hopefully it will be reissued so more people can hear it.

(Disclaimer: I am not any sort of expert on this piece. Gardiner is my only other recording.)

Ah, lucky you. I keep shopping around, you never know when one will hit the AMP or eBay. I've gotten some splendid disks from eBay for .99! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on August 19, 2014, 05:39:42 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2014, 03:09:31 PM
Ah, lucky you. I keep shopping around, you never know when one will hit the AMP or eBay. I've gotten some splendid disks from eBay for .99! :)

8)

If it's any consolation, my purchase was hardly a steal. For a used 2xCD it was actually a bit on the pricey side -- but it was much lower than the "do they actually want somebody to buy that?" AMP prices that are typical for this set. I didn't want to gloat over it at the time but since DD brought it up... >:D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 19, 2014, 08:26:13 PM

Quote from: Pat B on August 19, 2014, 05:39:42 PM
If it's any consolation, my purchase was hardly a steal. For a used 2xCD it was actually a bit on the pricey side -- but it was much lower than the "do they actually want somebody to buy that?" AMP prices that are typical for this set. I didn't want to gloat over it at the time but since DD brought it up... >:D

I got lucky...I found mine in a remaindered bin at Tower Records. Total cost: about $5 or $6. Seemed like a good buy at the time. Seems even more like one now!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on August 19, 2014, 11:41:23 PM

I recently read some very excited rave reviews of the Mosaiques SQ set, so I got a hold of their Op 76.

I must say ??? ??? ???

Too cultured for me, I guess. I'm going to pass it along to my grandmother. I'm sticking with the Buchbergers. I like "rock 'em sock 'em" string quartets, apparently. Really, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Mosaiques are more talented in every measurable category of violin playing. Probably they are even more authentic. In fact, I can almost picture them playing at a 1770s blue stocking society tea soiree...the old ladies' neck-wattle swaying appreciatively as they listen ::)
I know I'm being too harsh. Maybe I will mature into them, but for the immediate future the Buchbergers are for me 8) 8).

Also played some Barytone Trios. Terrific background music, IMO. I like the sound a lot-- a gentle, rich resonance in very low key but pleasant melodies.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 20, 2014, 04:24:18 AM

Quote from: Baklavaboy on August 19, 2014, 11:41:23 PM
I recently read some very excited rave reviews of the Mosaiques SQ set, so I got a hold of their Op 76.

I must say ??? ??? ???

Too cultured for me, I guess. I'm going to pass it along to my grandmother. I'm sticking with the Buchbergers. I like "rock 'em sock 'em" string quartets, apparently. Really, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Mosaiques are more talented in every measurable category of violin playing. Probably they are even more authentic. In fact, I can almost picture them playing at a 1770s blue stocking society tea soiree...the old ladies' neck-wattle swaying appreciatively as they listen ::)
I know I'm being too harsh. Maybe I will mature into them, but for the immediate future the Buchbergers are for me 8) 8).

Also played some Baryton Trios. Terrific background music, IMO. I like the sound a lot-- a gentle, rich resonance in very low key but pleasant melodies.

It's nice to know, though, that you aren't the Lone Ranger. The discussion here centered on the dichotomy between perfection and vitality. There were champions for both sides. On the vitality side, the recordings weren't the Buchberger's, though they could have been, it was the Festetics. Same issues, though.

I am one of 11 fans of Baryton music; yes, the choice of instruments there is inspired. Not a soprano in sight. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on August 20, 2014, 10:33:36 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 20, 2014, 04:24:18 AM
It's nice to know, though, that you aren't the Lone Ranger. The discussion here centered on the dichotomy between perfection and vitality. There were champions for both sides. On the vitality side, the recordings weren't the Buchberger's, though they could have been, it was the Festetics. Same issues, though.

I bought the Mosaiques's Op. 20 and 33 sets based on glowing reviews. YAWN!

I slowly acquired the Festetics recordings of various Op. no and like those much better.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 20, 2014, 10:34:50 AM

Well, I like the Mosaïques a great deal.

But, it would be a funny world if we all thought the same.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 20, 2014, 12:44:33 PM

Quote from: Old Listener on August 20, 2014, 10:33:36 AM
I bought the Mosaiques's Op. 20 and 33 sets based on glowing reviews. YAWN!

I slowly acquired the Festetics recordings of various Op. no and like those much better.

You and many others. I appreciate both sets for what they are. If I had to pare down to one set, it would be the Festetics. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on August 20, 2014, 03:18:35 PM

How did the Festetics actually go with you in that blind listening, though?

While I was warning Baklavaboy that the Buchbergers came dead last in the blind listening, I saw that I had liked the Festetics far more than average.

(Still recall the sensation that the Buchbergers were heading straight over a cliff. Yuk. I know it was only one movement out of hundreds, but still.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 20, 2014, 04:18:49 PM

Quote from: orfeo on August 20, 2014, 03:18:35 PM
How did the Festetics actually go with you in that blind listening, though?

While I was warning Baklavaboy that the Buchbergers came dead last in the blind listening, I saw that I had liked the Festetics far more than average.

(Still recall the sensation that the Buchbergers were heading straight over a cliff. Yuk. I know it was only one movement out of hundreds, but still.)

That particular quartet (Op 50 #1), my favorite, BTW, is not the best of the Festetics. In fact, I chose the Salomon's, followed by the Tokyo. But I have all of the Salomon's disks, and as a (mostly) cycle, I prefer the Festetics overall, by a good margin.

I share your fear of the Buchbergers! :D I have only listened to them sporadically, but all the ones I heard share that same breakneck sort of feeling. As I said to someone else, the Festetics feel like they are sitting on my porch on a summer evening... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 20, 2014, 04:43:27 PM

Quote from: Baklavaboy on August 19, 2014, 11:41:23 PM
I recently read some very excited rave reviews of the Mosaiques SQ set, so I got a hold of their Op 76.

Too cultured for me, I guess.......In fact, I can almost picture them playing at a 1770s blue stocking society tea soiree...the old ladies' neck-wattle swaying appreciatively as they listen ::)

Cute, but not even close. $:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on August 20, 2014, 05:08:30 PM

Listening through the rest of the set there is no question the Mosaiques are a fantastic group of musicians. I would not be at all surprised if my position gradually reverses itself. However, going from the wood-creaking, wire-screeching, in-your-face, high-energy Buchbergers directly to the staid, elegant refinement of the Mosaiques was a startling contrast. Give me some time to mature 0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 20, 2014, 05:09:08 PM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on August 20, 2014, 04:43:27 PM
Cute, but not even close. $:)

:D

Like I said, not everyone is in agreement on this issue. There are many who agree with you. Equally many who don't. I find it interesting; I have all the keyboard trios with Hobarth and Coin, with Cohen on fortepiano. They sound much more "rough and ready" than the quartets do. Theoretically, this is a reflection of their genres: quartets, at least by the end of the 18th century, were already imbued with a sense of polish. Trios were meant to be played privately among friends, and being somewhat rollicking was not antithetical to their nature. Quartets started out that way, but over time they grew into specimens instead. In Haydn's case it wasn't until Op 64 that he was really writing for the public as such. He sold Op 33 by subscription, of course, but to private individuals who played them in private, not to touring virtuosos who played them in any sort of public recital sort of atmosphere. This engraving by a fellow named Schmid (a likely story! ::) ), which is from the 18th century, purports to be Haydn playing quartets. Look at the people standing around, and the way they are wearing ordinary clothes and playing casually. While I realize it is an idealized look, it is a far cry from four guys in tuxedos playing on a stage in front of a dead quiet audience. I really believe this is the purpose for which quartets were written, certainly so by Haydn.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydnleadingaquartet18thcenturyengravingbySchmid_zps40804d10.jpg)
click to enlarge

Anyway, that's my opinion, many will say I'm wrong, and I may be. I just like the direction music took then more than the one it took since then. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 20, 2014, 08:16:55 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 20, 2014, 05:09:08 PM
:D

Like I said, not everyone is in agreement on this issue. There are many who agree with you. Equally many who don't. I find it interesting; I have all the keyboard trios with Hobarth and Coin, with Cohen on fortepiano. They sound much more "rough and ready" than the quartets do. Theoretically, this is a reflection of their genres: quartets, at least by the end of the 18th century, were already imbued with a sense of polish. Trios were meant to be played privately among friends, and being somewhat rollicking was not antithetical to their nature. Quartets started out that way, but over time they grew into specimens instead. In Haydn's case it wasn't until Op 64 that he was really writing for the public as such. He sold Op 33 by subscription, of course, but to private individuals who played them in private, not to touring virtuosos who played them in any sort of public recital sort of atmosphere. This engraving by a fellow named Schmid (a likely story! ::) ), which is from the 18th century, purports to be Haydn playing quartets. Look at the people standing around, and the way they are wearing ordinary clothes and playing casually. While I realize it is an idealized look, it is a far cry from four guys in tuxedos playing on a stage in front of a dead quiet audience. I really believe this is the purpose for which quartets were written, certainly so by Haydn.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydnleadingaquartet18thcenturyengravingbySchmid_zps40804d10.jpg)
click to enlarge

Anyway, that's my opinion, many will say I'm wrong, and I may be. I just like the direction music took then more than the one it took since then. :)

8)

"Specimens"? So the downfall started when selling tickets began and the public was allowed in? I'm afraid my friend we're going to have to agree to disagree on that one (as you say). :)

To me it's cyclical. New opportunities are what keep the artistic engines running. If Haydn's "little den of chamber arts" is whisked away by a public gone mad with Haydn fever then I say let the walls crumble. If the Op.64 is anything to go by I'd say Haydn had no problems adapting to his new surroundings. To me the Op.64 is just what the musical doctor ordered: sophisticated, dapper, resourceful, and ready to be unleashed on the wider public.

Specimen? Darn right! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 20, 2014, 08:23:13 PM

Quote from: Baklavaboy on August 20, 2014, 05:08:30 PM
Listening through the rest of the set there is no question the Mosaiques are a fantastic group of musicians. I would not be at all surprised if my position gradually reverses itself. However, going from the wood-creaking, wire-screeching, in-your-face, high-energy Buchbergers directly to the staid, elegant refinement of the Mosaiques was a startling contrast. Give me some time to mature 0:)

Just don't pass it on to any relatives...for awhile, anyway. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 21, 2014, 04:22:50 AM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on August 20, 2014, 08:16:55 PM
"Specimens"? So the downfall started when selling tickets began and the public was allowed in? I'm afraid my friend we're going to have to agree to disagree on that one (as you say). :)

To me it's cyclical. New opportunities are what keep the artistic engines running. If Haydn's "little den of chamber arts" is whisked away by a public gone mad with Haydn fever then I say let the walls crumble. If the Op.64 is anything to go by I'd say Haydn had no problems adapting to his new surroundings. To me the Op.64 is just what the musical doctor ordered: sophisticated, dapper, resourceful, and ready to be unleashed on the wider public.

Specimen? Darn right! ;D

I used that word intentionally to get a reaction from you. I like that! :D

I like music for its original intention. Which is why I don't like full-blown modern orchestras playing music from 1775, Haydn or otherwise. Sure, it sounds great, not saying otherwise. It doesn't please me. This is why there are so many different recordings available these days, which I applaud. Also, you shouldn't think I don't like QM. They just aren't my favorite. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on August 21, 2014, 04:27:56 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 21, 2014, 04:22:50 AM
I like music for its original intention.

Whatever Haydn's intention were, he certainly didn't write music for being recorded on CD. Now you have a big problem. ;D :P >:D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 21, 2014, 04:35:14 AM

Even in a small, homey space, Gurn, the audience may be dead quiet. That winning combination of interest in the music, and courtesy to the musicians 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 21, 2014, 04:35:48 AM

Quote from: Florestan on August 21, 2014, 04:27:56 AM
Whatever Haydn's intention were, he certainly didn't write music for being recorded on CD. Now you have a big problem. ;D :P >:D

Dud, you had to go there, didn't you? 8) 0:) :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on August 21, 2014, 04:39:32 AM

Quote from: Florestan on August 21, 2014, 04:27:56 AM
Whatever Haydn's intention were, he certainly didn't write music for being recorded on CD. Now you have a big problem. ;D :P >:D

Dare I say it... it's time to start listening to CDs of popular music!

(Or mp3s. Some pop music acts are clearly embracing the death of the album format and the rise of the 'playlist'.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 21, 2014, 04:40:58 AM

Quote from: orfeo on August 21, 2014, 04:39:32 AM
(Or mp3s. Some pop music acts are clearly embracing the death of the album format and the rise of the 'playlist'.)

As in, no attempt at collective flow, we need only worry about one song at a time? You may be right at that ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 21, 2014, 04:41:35 AM

I mean, there are "concept albums" we can point to, which make that seem like Progress, no doubt about it!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on August 21, 2014, 04:48:52 AM

Quote from: orfeo on August 21, 2014, 04:39:32 AM
Dare I say it... it's time to start listening to CDs of popular music!

Oh, but I do, frequently. Their harmonic, rythmic and dynamic uniformity makes them perfect for background music while I drive. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on August 21, 2014, 04:53:00 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on August 21, 2014, 04:41:35 AM
I mean, there are "concept albums" we can point to, which make that seem like Progress, no doubt about it!

Oh, personally I am VERY much about album listening and 'album artists' - popular music artists that give every indication of conceiving their output at an album level. Song cycles, arguably.

A couple of my favourite artists were either slow to allow their music onto iTunes or expressed reservations about it, precisely because it was 'iTunes' and not 'iAlbums'. Some of them don't like the fact that people can buy and listen to songs in isolation.

But then, classical music artists don't all stick to the straight and narrow either. Whether it's swapping movements in symphonies (the Allegretto of Beethoven's 7th being shoved into his other symphonies during his lifetime) or lifting individual songs out of their contexts to be part of 'recitals'.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on August 21, 2014, 04:54:06 AM

Quote from: Florestan on August 21, 2014, 04:48:52 AM
Oh, but I do, frequently. Their harmonic, rythmic and dynamic uniformity makes them perfect for background music while I drive. ;D

Romanians are such kidders.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on August 21, 2014, 05:04:29 AM

Quote from: orfeo on August 21, 2014, 04:54:06 AM
Romanians are such kidders.

What makes you think I was kidding? Not wanting to derail this thread, see my reply on the other one.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on August 21, 2014, 05:42:07 AM

Quote from: Florestan on August 21, 2014, 04:27:56 AM
Whatever Haydn's intention were, he certainly didn't write music for being recorded on CD. Now you have a big problem. ;D :P >:D

He wrote music to be heard and enjoyed by others. And when he wrote it he had an idea of what it should sound like. PI on CD should satisfy those requirements...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 21, 2014, 06:02:55 AM

Quote from: Florestan on August 21, 2014, 04:27:56 AM
Whatever Haydn's intention were, he certainly didn't write music for being recorded on CD. Now you have a big problem. ;D :P >:D

This time you're wrong, dear Andrei. :) Men always want a record (any of them) of their achievements and composers are not an exception.

Paraphrasing Mallarmé, I'd say: everything in Music happens in order to end up in a CD. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 21, 2014, 06:06:25 AM

Well, Haydn could have imagined neither the modern piano, nor the CD. If we argue that, because all composers want a record (of any kind) of their achievements, this consideration subsumes the CD -- how can we argue against the modern piano?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 21, 2014, 06:09:51 AM

Quote from: Gordo on August 21, 2014, 06:02:55 AM
This time you're wrong, dear Andrei. :) Men always want a record (any of them) of their achievements and composers are not an exception.

Paraphrasing Mallarmé, I'd say: everything in Music happens in order to end up in a CD. 8)

He certainly wanted a permanent record, that's why he wrote it down. The fact that a method of storing a realization was developed years after his death in mo way changes what his intentions were when he wrote it. In some ways I will disagree with Marshal McLuhan here: the medium is NOT the message! >:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 21, 2014, 06:33:07 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on August 21, 2014, 06:06:25 AM
Well, Haydn could have imagined neither the modern piano, nor the CD. If we argue that, because all composers want a record (of any kind) of their achievements, this considering subsumes the CD -- how can we argue against the modern piano?

Personally, I don't really argue against the modern piano, as I don't argue against the Hammond organ or the ukulele for the case.

I just think Haydn's music is better served with instruments that he could actually listen to. I think it's not arbitrary to assume that the music he imagined in his mind while he was writing, sounded more as a pianoforte than as a modern grand.

That said, no doubt his technical solutions for musical problems had in mind instruments of his own age. I never forget that these old composers were essentially practical men, not abstract theoreticians.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 21, 2014, 06:37:34 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 21, 2014, 06:09:51 AM
He certainly wanted a permanent record, that's why he wrote it down. The fact that a method of storing a realization was developed years after his death in mo way changes what his intentions were when he wrote it. In some ways I will disagree with Marshal McLuhan here: the medium is NOT the message! >:D

8)

I only disagree with the last part: McLuhan is our friend, PI are an essential part of the message! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 21, 2014, 07:12:48 AM

Quote from: Gordo on August 21, 2014, 06:37:34 AM
I only disagree with the last part: McLuhan is our friend, PI are an essential part of the message! :)

Yes, I don't disagree with him on everything, only that where we get our presentation from has changed in ways he couldn't imagine. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on August 21, 2014, 07:21:08 AM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on August 20, 2014, 08:16:55 PM
"Specimens"? So the downfall started when selling tickets began and the public was allowed in? I'm afraid my friend we're going to have to agree to disagree on that one (as you say). :)

To me it's cyclical. New opportunities are what keep the artistic engines running. If Haydn's "little den of chamber arts" is whisked away by a public gone mad with Haydn fever then I say let the walls crumble. If the Op.64 is anything to go by I'd say Haydn had no problems adapting to his new surroundings. To me the Op.64 is just what the musical doctor ordered: sophisticated, dapper, resourceful, and ready to be unleashed on the wider public.

I see this as two steps forward, one step back. It's great that more people gained access to his music. At the same time, something gets lost when the intimacy of the living room is replaced by the formality of the concert hall.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 21, 2014, 07:55:33 AM

Quote from: Pat B on August 21, 2014, 07:21:08 AM
I see this as two steps forward, one step back. It's great that more people gained access to his music. At the same time, something gets lost when the intimacy of the living room is replaced by the formality of the concert hall.

Wish I had said that... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 21, 2014, 08:40:08 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 21, 2014, 04:22:50 AM
I used that word intentionally to get a reaction from you. I like that! :D

That's not playing fair! (but I like it!) :laugh:

QuoteAlso, you shouldn't think I don't like QM. They just aren't my favorite. :)

Oh, it doesn't matter to me what anyone thinks about the QM. But painting them as a clown outfit is a gross mischaracterization. That's all. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 21, 2014, 08:42:13 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 21, 2014, 07:55:33 AM

Wish I had said that... :)

8)

You will, Oscar. You will.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 21, 2014, 09:00:05 AM

Speaking of PI, I think this disk claims a careful consideration:

[asin]ASIN: B001FENZAW[/asin]

Opus 77 & Opus 103

Delightful playing in fantastic sound quality.

http://edding-quartet.com/en/edding-quartet/

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 21, 2014, 09:20:39 AM

Quote from: Pat B on August 21, 2014, 07:21:08 AM
I see this as two steps forward, one step back. It's great that more people gained access to his music. At the same time, something gets lost when the intimacy of the living room is replaced by the formality of the concert hall.

What you're saying echoes Gurn's post almost to the letter:

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 21, 2014, 04:22:50 AM
I like music for its original intention. Which is why I don't like full-blown modern orchestras playing music from 1775, Haydn or otherwise. Sure, it sounds great, not saying otherwise. It doesn't please me.

So I'm not sure I see your point, Pat B.

As I said, even the great Haydn himself took his exit from the living room and ventured into the waters of the greater public. No secret there.

So it's difficult for me to imagine Haydn putting the stops on anyone playing his pre-1775 music publicly. No step backward that I can detect in that.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on August 21, 2014, 10:11:34 AM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on August 21, 2014, 09:20:39 AM
What you're saying echoes Gurn's post almost to the letter:

So I'm not sure I see your point, Pat B.

As I said, even the great Haydn himself took his exit from the living room and ventured into the waters of the greater public. No secret there.

So it's difficult for me to imagine Haydn putting the stops on anyone playing his pre-1775 music publicly. No step backward that I can detect in that.

My point was between the lines in Gurn's previous post, but not related to Gurn's comment about intention (which isn't even true for me). My statement was a simple one about the difference between small venues and large venues, and the relationship between performer and audience.

If you can't detect any trade-off in larger venues then we should probably agree to disagree.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 21, 2014, 10:17:24 AM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on August 21, 2014, 08:40:08 AM
That's not playing fair! (but I like it!) :laugh:

Oh, it doesn't matter to me what anyone thinks about the QM. But painting them as a clown outfit is a gross mischaracterization. That's all. :)

They play very well in either case. The neck ruff doesn't seem to throw them off... ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 21, 2014, 10:18:45 AM

Quote from: Gordo on August 21, 2014, 09:00:05 AM
Speaking of PI, I think this disk claims a careful consideration:

[asin]ASIN: B001FENZAW[/asin]

Opus 77 & Opus 103

Delightful playing in fantastic sound quality.

http://edding-quartet.com/en/edding-quartet/

Yes, that is a very commendable recording. There are lots of PI recordings (I have most of them) which make me wish their authors had gone a bit further. The Schuppanzigh's are another. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 21, 2014, 10:22:23 AM

Quote from: Pat B on August 21, 2014, 10:11:34 AM
My point was between the lines in Gurn's previous post, but not related to Gurn's comment about intention (which isn't even true for me). My statement was a simple one about the difference between small venues and large venues, and the relationship between performer and audience.

God help me if I must read between the lines and it isn't written in english. ;D

QuoteIf you can't detect any trade-off in larger venues then we should probably agree to disagree.

And that's what you define as a step backward? A simple trade-off?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 21, 2014, 10:27:39 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 21, 2014, 10:17:24 AM
They play very well in either case. The neck ruff doesn't seem to throw them off... ;)

;D

Out of the living room and into Barnum & Bailey...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 21, 2014, 10:27:46 AM

Quote from: Pat B on August 21, 2014, 10:11:34 AM
My point was between the lines in Gurn's previous post, but not related to Gurn's comment about intention (which isn't even true for me). My statement was a simple one about the difference between small venues and large venues, and the relationship between performer and audience.

If you can't detect any trade-off in larger venues then we should probably agree to disagree.

Yes, that's it essentially; I just prefer the sound, feel and bit of informality involved in smaller venues. The reason string instruments went to steel strings and pianos became as large a taxicabs and wooden flutes became silver etc. is exactly because of larger venues. So if you are now having a PI group playing Carnegie Hall and splicing 'takes' to make them perfect, this, then, becomes the height of inauthenticity, the worst of all possible scenarios. A wart here and there and a warm, intimate sound is infinitely preferable, IMO. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 21, 2014, 10:31:09 AM

Carnegie Hall is quite cozy, actually. Bruce and I heard some Vivaldi there; I think you would have enjoyed it!

Edit

The main hall at C.H. seats 2,804 on five levels. (There are also two more intimate halls, seating 599 and 268, respectively.) Boston's Symphony Hall, with two balconies, seats 2,625.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 21, 2014, 10:40:40 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on August 21, 2014, 10:31:09 AM
Carnegie Hall is quite cozy, actually. Bruce and I heard some Vivaldi there; I think you would have enjoyed it!

Edit

The main hall at C.H. seats 2,804 on five levels. (There are also two more intimate halls, seating 599 and 268, respectively.) Boston's Symphony Hall, with two balconies, seats 2,625.

I have a DVD of Gardiner et al playing Beethoven's 9th there, it's fabulous. Bigger than a living room, or my front porch, though. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 21, 2014, 10:51:20 AM

I've heard two Haydn symphonies at Symphony Hall; MI, of course, but reduced band. One I should call "okay" (Spano leading the Hob. I/104); the other, "good" (Jimmy leading the Hob. I/22).

Examples of smaller bands I've heard there are: the Wagner Siegfried-Idyll, the Berg Kammerkonzert (pf, vn & 13 winds), and the Mozart Gran Partita. Granted, we were not a great distance from the stage; but I didn't feel that the pieces were Lost in [the] Space.

(Spano, I am sure, can do better; I am sure that he had limited time for rehearsal -- guests always do -- and no doubt the Haydn drew the short straw. Again, it was okay, but a good conductor and the BSO could have done better, with another even partial rehearsal.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 21, 2014, 11:06:57 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on August 21, 2014, 10:51:20 AM
I've heard two Haydn symphonies at Symphony Hall; MI, of course, but reduced band. One I should call "okay" (Spano leading the Hob. I/104); the other, "good" (Jimmy leading the Hob. I/22).

Examples of smaller bands I've heard there are: the Wagner Siegfried-Idyll, the Berg Kammerkonzert (pf, vn & 13 winds), and the Mozart Gran Partita. Granted, we were not a great distance from the stage; but I didn't feel that the pieces were Lost in [the] Space.

(Spano, I am sure, can do better; I am sure that he had limited time for rehearsal -- guests always do -- and no doubt the Haydn drew the short straw. Again, it was okay, but a good conductor and the BSO could have done better, with another even partial rehearsal.)

I saw the Atlanta Symphony do #98 with Yoel Levi in his last year, at their Symphony Hall. They were reduced to 35 players, which was great for a London symphony from the first tour, but even on MI they were slightly 'over-housed'. They played frightfully well though. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 21, 2014, 11:08:13 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 21, 2014, 10:27:46 AM
Yes, that's it essentially; I just prefer the sound, feel and bit of informality involved in smaller venues. The reason string instruments went to steel strings and pianos became as large a taxicabs and wooden flutes became silver etc. is exactly because of larger venues. So if you are now having a PI group playing Carnegie Hall and splicing 'takes' to make them perfect, this, then, becomes the height of inauthenticity, the worst of all possible scenarios. A wart here and there and a warm, intimate sound is infinitely preferable, IMO. :)

But a piano "the size of a taxicab" still sounds wonderful in small spaces. This I know. Ditto other modern instruments.

So the idea that change (in musical instruments/venues/whatever) is "a step backward", as Pat B put it, is inaccurate.

That people prefer one thing over another is indisputable but I'm still trying to wrap my head around the whole "step backward" thing.

(Not to mention that humans being humans instruments were bound to evolve no matter the changes in the size of venues).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 21, 2014, 11:42:00 AM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on August 21, 2014, 11:08:13 AM
But a piano "the size of a taxicab" still sounds wonderful in small spaces. This I know. Ditto other modern instruments.

So the idea that change (in musical instruments/venues/whatever) is "a step backward", as Pat B put it, is inaccurate.

That people prefer one thing over another is indisputable but I'm still trying to wrap my head around the whole "step backward" thing.

(Not to mention that humans being humans instruments were bound to evolve no matter the changes in the size of venues).

Well, we won't get into the evolution thing. It was a direct result of social pressures: increased audience size for varying reasons leading to increased venue size to accommodate them. This isn't arguable, it just is.

I think the step backward came more from trying to port the older music over to the new instruments and venues and finding it inadequate to the situation. If you were to research the subject, you would find that the 19th century found 18th century music too puny for most purposes. Most music before Beethoven was rarely played, and this includes Haydn and Mozart. Bach enjoyed a resurgence, but he wouldn't have recognized his music, as most pre-1975 Brandenburg Concerto recordings will demonstrate.

Haydn didn't enjoy a resurgence until the PI revolution came about. If there is a cause and effect here, I'm not sure really which is the cause and which is the effect. But Haydn is more popular now than he has been at any time since his death. This is also not really arguable, in that I am only stating a fact, not trying to prove anything by it.

Maybe MY thinking would be like: if you are gong to go down the PI road and play period instruments, and play all the repeats, and try to bow your fiddle in 18th century style &c., then why not go ahead and change the context of your playing from a strictly perfect competitive recital atmosphere to a more relaxed, friendly gathering, a 'conversation among friends' as it was called in 1785, and see how that goes? This is why the style of the Festetics appeals to some people more than that of the QM, and it is also why the style of the QM appeals to some people more than the style of the Festetics. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 21, 2014, 11:59:48 AM

Relaxed & friendly is period practice for Henningmusick, too!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on August 21, 2014, 12:04:54 PM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on August 21, 2014, 11:08:13 AM
So the idea that change (in musical instruments/venues/whatever) is "a step backward", as Pat B put it, is inaccurate.

That people prefer one thing over another is indisputable but I'm still trying to wrap my head around the whole "step backward" thing.

Well, I sent you a PM, but...

If you can't perceive or imagine any possible disadvantage of a larger venue vs. a smaller venue, then my statement will never make sense and you should stop wasting time on it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 21, 2014, 12:18:42 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 21, 2014, 11:42:00 AM
Well, we won't get into the evolution thing. It was a direct result of social pressures: increased audience size for varying reasons leading to increased venue size to accommodate them. This isn't arguable, it just is.

Ok, we won't go into it but you brought it up. ;) Certainly social factors play a role in the change of many things but that doesn't necessarily equate to retrograde (which is what I'm reading into your comment).

QuoteI think the step backward came more from trying to port the older music over to the new instruments and venues and finding it inadequate to the situation. If you were to research the subject, you would find that the 19th century found 18th century music too puny for most purposes. Most music before Beethoven was rarely played, and this includes Haydn and Mozart. Bach enjoyed a resurgence, but he wouldn't have recognized his music, as most pre-1975 Brandenburg Concerto recordings will demonstrate.

None of that is a step backward. As you say, it is/was what it is/was. As 18th c. music became more widely disseminated the old prejudices fell, obviously. But you can't blame the 19th and 20th c. musical organizations for their startup efforts in uncovering past music. If they had it wrong in the beginning it's because they had little to go on. That's also easy to uncover with a little bit of research.

QuoteHaydn didn't enjoy a resurgence until the PI revolution came about. If there is a cause and effect here, I'm not sure really which is the cause and which is the effect. But Haydn is more popular now than he has been at any time since his death. This is also not really arguable, in that I am only stating a fact, not trying to prove anything by it.

This kind of thing gives Haydn far too little credit. You do, in fact, Gurn, sound exactly like someone trying to prove something. PI has its place of course but the music itself is what counts.

QuoteMaybe MY thinking would be like: if you are gong to go down the PI road and play period instruments, and play all the repeats, and try to bow your fiddle in 18th century style &c., then why not go ahead and change the context of your playing from a strictly perfect competitive recital atmosphere to a more relaxed, friendly gathering, a 'conversation among friends' as it was called in 1785, and see how that goes? This is why the style of the Festetics appeals to some people more than that of the QM, and it is also why the style of the QM appeals to some people more than the style of the Festetics. :)

I think we've established that a person's preferences are their own (at least I did). Yes, so I agree with the above. I'm only happy when you're happy, Gurn! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 21, 2014, 12:24:54 PM

Quote from: Pat B on August 21, 2014, 12:04:54 PM
Well, I sent you a PM, but...

If you can't perceive or imagine any possible disadvantage of a larger venue vs. a smaller venue, then my statement will never make sense and you should stop wasting time on it.

What the... :o ???

Dude, you didn't give me the chance to respond to your PM.

So now that we're here I'd be more than happy to hear about what you think are the "steps forward" you're referring to. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 21, 2014, 12:56:40 PM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on August 21, 2014, 12:18:42 PM
Ok, we won't go into it but you brought it up. ;) Certainly social factors play a role in the change of many things but that doesn't necessarily equate to retrograde (which is what I'm reading into your comment).

It isn't necessarily retrograde, the only step backward that I am referring to is abandoning 18th century music for 100 years because it didn't fit in with 19th century prejudices. And I didn't even say it in this context. The music changed to fit the new reality, that all. They wrote new music and abandoned the old. Or they tried to modify it to make Mozart's Jupiter or Haydn's #104 sound post-Beethovenian. That's not a step backward, it just sucks. :P

QuoteNone of that is a step backward. As you say, it is/was what it is/was. As 18th c. music became more widely disseminated the old prejudices fell, obviously. But you can't blame the 19th and 20th c. musical organizations for their startup efforts in uncovering past music. If they had it wrong in the beginning it's because they had little to go on. That's also easy to uncover with a little bit of research.

We are talking about two different things. I'm talking about initially screwing it up, you're talking about taking small steps towards recovery. I agree with what you are saying, but it in no way invalidates what I said. We are talking 75 years difference in time!

QuoteThis kind of thing gives Haydn far too little credit. You do, in fact, Gurn, sound exactly like someone trying to prove something. PI has its place of course but the music itself is what counts.

On the contrary, I give Haydn all the credit in the world. But even HE couldn't overcome some of the travesties committed against him. See if you can Google up the book 'Cambridge Companion to Haydn', and there is an essay in there called 'The Long 19th Century'. It's interesting, and sad. Also, there is a really interesting one about Donald Tovey and his attempts to recover Haydn in the 1920's and 30's. SOme of the quotes from critics and such about Haydn will stand your hair up. Just because we today have a more equable view, it doesn't men things have been this way for a long time, or even in our lifetime. Also, just because I don't hold it against earlier 20th century musicians who may have stumbled a bit, albeit with good intentions, it doesn't mean that in a spirit of forgiveness I should promote their efforts. Does it? Am I wrong there?

QuoteI think we've established that a person's preferences are their own (at least I did). Yes, so I agree with the above. I'm only happy when you're happy, Gurn! :)

That's a wonderfully sensible finale, DD. I've always said you were an eminently reasonable man. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 21, 2014, 01:25:55 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 21, 2014, 12:56:40 PM
It isn't necessarily retrograde, the only step backward that I am referring to is abandoning 18th century music for 100 years because it didn't fit in with 19th century prejudices. And I didn't even say it in this context. The music changed to fit the new reality, that all. They wrote new music and abandoned the old. Or they tried to modify it to make Mozart's Jupiter or Haydn's #104 sound post-Beethovenian. That's not a step backward, it just sucks. :P

How much 14th c music was played by Haydn and his contemporaries? And even if they played it what would it sound like? Would they even try to establish something akin to "authentic performances"? Not likely. This whole concept of PI and "authenticity" is decidedly a product of OUR generation. Good thing, but that doesn't invalidate anything that came before it.

QuoteWe are talking about two different things. I'm talking about initially screwing it up, you're talking about taking small steps towards recovery. I agree with what you are saying, but it in no way invalidates what I said. We are talking 75 years difference in time!

Well, as far as I can tell we're talking about exactly the same thing. I wrote "if they had it wrong in the beginning it's because they had little to go on". That's a direct reference to "initially screwing it up", as you put it. My "recovery" comments were an effort to put a positive spin on things.

QuoteOn the contrary, I give Haydn all the credit in the world. But even HE couldn't overcome some of the travesties committed against him. See if you can Google up the book 'Cambridge Companion to Haydn', and there is an essay in there called 'The Long 19th Century'. It's interesting, and sad. Also, there is a really interesting one about Donald Tovey and his attempts to recover Haydn in the 1920's and 30's. SOme of the quotes from critics and such about Haydn will stand your hair up. Just because we today have a more equable view, it doesn't men things have been this way for a long time, or even in our lifetime. Also, just because I don't hold it against earlier 20th century musicians who may have stumbled a bit, albeit with good intentions, it doesn't mean that in a spirit of forgiveness I should promote their efforts. Does it? Am I wrong there?

"Travesties"? Is this another attempt to ensnare me? ;D Again, I refer you to my initial comments. What would 14th c. music have sounded like in Haydn's time? Let's keep things in perspective, here.

QuoteThat's a wonderfully sensible finale, DD. I've always said you were an eminently reasonable man. :D

I aims to please...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on August 21, 2014, 01:38:47 PM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on August 21, 2014, 12:24:54 PM
What the... :o ???

Dude, you didn't give me the chance to respond to your PM.

So now that we're here I'd be more than happy to hear about what you think are the "steps forward" you're referring to. :)

I thought your post here was after my PM. Couldn't confirm since sent PMs aren't saved.

When moving from living room to concert hall, the increase in accessibility is the two steps forward. The loss of intimacy is the one step back. It was a simple statement, probably not worth any further dissection or rehashing.

Now Gurn is saying the step back was the stylistic change of the 19th century which isn't what I was talking about at all. :o

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on August 21, 2014, 04:21:09 PM

Quote from: Pat B on August 21, 2014, 01:38:47 PM
When moving from living room to concert hall, the increase in accessibility is the two steps forward. The loss of intimacy is the one step back. It was a simple statement, probably not worth any further dissection or rehashing.

Oh, gotcha. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 22, 2014, 02:09:33 AM

And: a gain, overall!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on August 22, 2014, 08:27:44 PM

Depends entirely, I would have thought, on whether the music you're playing requires intimacy or not.

If we're talking quartets then, yes, I suppose that if one is playing music that was conceived of as being for a small room, there are problems if one then plays it in a hall where everything sounds big and distant (nothing that how different halls sound can be VERY different). In that Haydn blind listening test, I criticised one recording precisely because the recording sounded like it was in a big, echoing, hall. To me, it was working against everything the 4 players were trying to do with the music.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 24, 2014, 08:21:31 AM

The difficulties attached to researching areas in which most of the documentation has been burned up are vastly underrated! 1777 is such a year, but I did find out a little. Check it and see! Always delighted to discuss it after.

The year of the first moon landing (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/08/1777-the-year-.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on August 27, 2014, 05:06:18 AM

You know, I don't think anyone writes a better Andante.

(My introduction to symphony no.83 is bringing this sentiment on, along with previous experience.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 27, 2014, 05:10:04 AM

Quote from: orfeo on August 27, 2014, 05:06:18 AM
You know, I don't think anyone writes a better Andante.

You've inspired me to revisit the Un poco andante from the Hob. I/41 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 31, 2014, 04:59:14 AM

It has landed!

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/08/31/ujyhajez.jpg)

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/08/31/pymupeju.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on August 31, 2014, 05:09:27 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on August 31, 2014, 04:59:14 AM
It has landed!

Congrats!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 31, 2014, 05:15:19 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on August 31, 2014, 04:59:14 AM
It has landed!

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/08/31/ujyhajez.jpg)

(http://img.tapatalk.com/d/14/08/31/pymupeju.jpg)

Very nice, Karl! Not only a fine tome, but Robbie took good care of you, too. Almost too nice to read! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 31, 2014, 05:16:48 AM

Cheers, gents! And I can make my own dust jacket, if I wish . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 04, 2014, 08:40:49 AM

Yes? No? Stay away? You could do better? Get it now? Please help? 8)

[asin]B0036ULAXC[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on September 04, 2014, 09:09:18 AM

I've wondered if Gurn hath from the Northern parts returned . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 04, 2014, 02:01:09 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 04, 2014, 08:40:49 AM
Yes? No? Stay away? You could do better? Get it now? Please help? 8)

[asin]B0036ULAXC[/asin]

Quote from: karlhenning on September 04, 2014, 09:09:18 AM
I've wondered if Gurn hath from the Northern parts returned . . . .

Indeed, I have just now got online for basically the first time in a week. Nice to be gone, nice to be back! :) Of course, a day on an airplane was a singularly joyless pursuit, but what the heck... :-\

Greg, I don't have Olbertz' Haydn, back when I bought McCabe, complete sets were thin on the ground, and this one apparently only recently came back into print. I have quite a few disks by him though, my opinion being he is one of the finest vocal accompanists I have heard, and a nice, solid, non-virtuoso-emulating player; in short, an ideal Haydnist. The reviews indicate the sound is good, I would agree with the reviewer who said for the price you can't go wrong. I paid about twice that for McCabe, for example. These appear to date from the early 1970's, FWIW, I don't see that as a drawback in solo piano music. Let us know what you think; I'm curious. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 04, 2014, 08:58:16 PM

Haydn's late masses are some of my favorite pieces of music. I wish there'd be more in the way of discussion about them here but there's no crying in da Haus, so...

Why this is suddenly significant is found in the recording below of the Mass In Time Of War. It contains what has just become perhaps my favorite slow movement in all Haydn. It's a mass so no surprise there'd be gratuitous spirituality spilling out all over the place and the Gloria (although it does have a "fast" part) is the recipient of the best of the best.

Make Glorias not war, eh? 0:)

[asin]B000001GGT[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 07, 2014, 05:57:17 PM

Between vacation and massive computer issues (something ate my antivirus program!! :o ) I haven't had a lot of time or ability to do much research, but this evening I was finally able to summarize my look at 1777's music. I invite you to check it out, and discuss if you will. :)

The music of 1777, or what's left of it! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/09/1777-the-music-.html)

Thanks!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 14, 2014, 06:26:02 AM

I took a look at 1778, it was a strange year, seemed like "no big events" was overwhelmed by "daily grind". Have a look, I think you'll find it interesting.

The year where nothing much happened (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/09/1778-the-year-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 14, 2014, 06:28:28 AM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 04, 2014, 08:58:16 PM
Haydn's late masses are some of my favorite pieces of music. I wish there'd be more in the way of discussion about them here but there's no crying in da Haus, so...

Why this is suddenly significant is found in the recording below of the Mass In Time Of War. It contains what has just become perhaps my favorite slow movement in all Haydn. It's a mass so no surprise there'd be gratuitous spirituality spilling out all over the place and the Gloria (although it does have a "fast" part) is the recipient of the best of the best.

Make Glorias not war, eh? 0:)

[asin]B000001GGT[/asin]

You're right, DD, that not a lot of 'Mass' discussion goes on here, although I'm not sure why, because there seem to be a lot of fans. Like me, for example.

Unfortunately I can't discuss that performance since I never heard it, but both of those masses are among my favorites. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 14, 2014, 05:13:37 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 14, 2014, 06:28:28 AM
You're right, DD, that not a lot of 'Mass' discussion goes on here, although I'm not sure why, because there seem to be a lot of fans. Like me, for example.

Unfortunately I can't discuss that performance since I never heard it, but both of those masses are among my favorites. :-\

8)

One of the things about the masses that I really enjoy is the fact that they seem to be among the most "public" pieces Haydn wrote. At least to my way of looking at it. Or even THE most public. Of course it's hard to argue that the public top dog spot doesn't belong to the symphonies but what the masses have going for them that puts them in the "most public" category for me is their charismatic quality.

Charismatic in that they seem specifically formulated to engage on many levels. First there's the emotional level, which is of course the hook to end all hooks in attempting to attract the average Joe Listener. But then there's the technical achievement of the works. These works totally bespeak a lifetime of musical workmanship. Then there's the originality. These works are like the proverbial breaths of fresh air. Nothing hackneyed.

And most impressive of all they're then in turn sprung on the musical world almost as if to say "now top this!". It's Haydn giving everyone something new to chew on. And to me that's how you get the public to stand up and notice most. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 14, 2014, 05:28:20 PM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 14, 2014, 05:13:37 PM
One of the things about the masses that I really enjoy is the fact that they seem to be among the most "public" pieces Haydn wrote. At least to my way of looking at it. Or even THE most public. Of course it's hard to argue that the public top dog spot doesn't belong to the symphonies but what the masses have going for them that puts them in the "most public" category for me is their charismatic quality.

Charismatic in that they seem specifically formulated to engage on many levels. First there's the emotional level, which is of course the hook to end all hooks in attempting to attract the average Joe Listener. But then there's the technical achievement of the works. These works totally bespeak a lifetime of musical workmanship. Then there's the originality. These works are like the proverbial breaths of fresh air. Nothing hackneyed.

And most impressive of all they're then in turn sprung on the musical world almost as if to say "now top this!". It's Haydn giving everyone something new to chew on. And to me that's how you get the public to stand up and notice most. :)

Haydn's view of his masses was perhaps different than many; he wrote them solely because he wanted to. Even his late ones were not really mandated as such. And none of his early ones were more than an act of devotion on his part. And so he put all his art into them, since he viewed them as an offering, more or less. An example of this is the Große Orgelsolomesse, where he intentionally made the organ solo difficult; not so it could appear virtuosic, but because the effort he expended playing it perfectly (he was the soloist there) was an offering in itself.

So, on the one hand, I agree with your premise that this was the most public of his works, since anyone could walk in off the street and sit in church and hear it and be edified. But also, I think they were also the most private of his works because he wrote them as a personal, private offering. Interesting dichotomy. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on September 14, 2014, 06:28:55 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 14, 2014, 05:28:20 PM
But also, I think they were also the most private of his works because he wrote them as a personal, private offering. Interesting dichotomy. :)

Interesting indeed. Haydn had the "inwardness" and the rest of us got some beautiful ear candy because of it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on September 16, 2014, 06:46:12 AM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on September 14, 2014, 05:13:37 PM
Charismatic in that they seem specifically formulated to engage on many levels. First there's the emotional level, which is of course the hook to end all hooks in attempting to attract the average Joe Listener.

Gurn might certainly clarify on this, but I think "the average Joe Listener" was a completely alien notion to Haydn. He wrote only for connoisseurs, be they professional or amateurs.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 16, 2014, 06:56:35 AM

Quote from: Florestan on September 16, 2014, 06:46:12 AM
Gurn might certainly clarify on this, but I think "the average Joe Listener" was a completely alien notion to Haydn. He wrote only for connoisseurs, be they professional or amateurs.

That is certainly true of most of his music, but not so much with his church music. Yes, certainly there is a strong element of sophistication in the composition. However, there is also an appeal for the attendees at the mass to have a feeling of participating in the celebration itself. Like I was saying earlier, he didn't write masses on commission, he wrote them from devotion. So he would naturally want as many people as possible to be able to get something from the music. I think DD is right in saying it was the most public form of music he wrote, simply because it was the only music that you or I could have ever heard (unless we were serving drinks in the palace).

He played organ at two churches in Eisenstadt whenever he was in town, the Bergkirche (located on what is now, famously, Joseph Haydn Square) and the church of the Barmherzigebrüder Church, both of which were totally accessible to the faithful. It is the one area of non-exclusivity in his entire oeuvre. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 21, 2014, 11:41:56 AM

Man, this gives ME a headache! I've been trying to sort out symphonies lately. It scares me that I actually think I have a grip on them! Check it out if you'd like. :)

Ball of Confusion (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/09/1778-the-music-part-1-.html)

Thanks,
Gurn 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 24, 2014, 05:20:16 PM

Just some thought about what the recent passings of Brüggen and Hogwood mean to me. Maybe to you, too?

R.I.P., PIoneers (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/09/friends-of-haydn-rip.html)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 24, 2014, 06:03:29 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 24, 2014, 05:20:16 PM
Just some thought about what the recent passings of Brüggen and Hogwood mean to me. Maybe to you, too?

R.I.P., PIoneers (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/09/friends-of-haydn-rip.html)

8)

Thank you for sharing, Gurn. A very nice entry.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 24, 2014, 06:22:08 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 24, 2014, 06:03:29 PM
Thank you for sharing, Gurn. A very nice entry.

Thanks, Greg.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on September 25, 2014, 01:49:03 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 24, 2014, 05:20:16 PM
Just some thought about what the recent passings of Brüggen and Hogwood mean to me. Maybe to you, too?

R.I.P., PIoneers (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/09/friends-of-haydn-rip.html)

8)

Link doesn't work. :(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on September 25, 2014, 01:55:09 AM

Yesterday I randomly hit at Haydn's symphonies: no. 71 with Antal Dorati and Philharmonia Hungarica. A major discovery. Now I'm having it on repeat, this time with Hogwood. A masterpiece of inventiveness, melodicity and craftsmanship deeply touching the soul. But wait, doesn't this apply to them all?

EDIT: the false endings in the first and last movement are pure genius.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on September 25, 2014, 03:49:12 AM

Dudes! Andrei in da Haus!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on September 25, 2014, 03:57:54 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on September 25, 2014, 03:49:12 AM
Dudes! Andrei in da Haus!

Not my first visit, though --- and certainly not the last. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on September 25, 2014, 04:09:49 AM

See? I'm already back.

I'm considering this:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61MTlScpYRL._SX425_.jpg)

At 35 Euros on Amazon.es looks like a no-brainer, but how about the quality?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on September 25, 2014, 04:22:38 AM

I have never heard the Aeolian recordings, but most comments have been not very positive. There might be some discussion in this very forum about alternatives like the Buchberger or Angeles complete recordings. For friends of original instruments there is a box with about half the quartets by the Mosaiques and there will be one with all but opp.1+2 by the Festetics.
If money is not the major concern I'd mix and match

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 25, 2014, 04:24:20 AM

Quote from: Florestan on September 25, 2014, 01:49:03 AM
Link doesn't work. :(

And yet, it works perfectly for me... ??? Don't know what to say, 'drei...

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 25, 2014, 04:25:49 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on September 25, 2014, 04:22:38 AM
I have never heard the Aeolian recordings, but most comments have been not very positive. There might be some discussion in this very forum about alternatives like the Buchberger or Angeles complete recordings. For friends of original instruments there is a box with about half the quartets by the Mosaiques and there will be one with all but opp.1+2 by the Festetics.
If money is not the major concern I'd mix and match

I have heard this too, but since I don't have it I am not one to comment. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on September 25, 2014, 04:26:42 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 25, 2014, 04:24:20 AM
And yet, it works perfectly for me... ??? Don't know what to say, 'drei...

8)

That's what I get

404 Page not found

What happened?

The page you visited could not be found.

What can I do?

If you're a visitor to this site, please try back a bit later.

If you are the owner of this site, please visit Typepad Status for network updates or open a ticket from within your account. If you are unable to open a ticket, please contact us via support@typepad.com.
EDIT: and that's exactly what I get from your Haydn-Seek blog as well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 25, 2014, 04:33:42 AM

Quote from: Florestan on September 25, 2014, 04:26:42 AM
That's what I get

404 Page not found

What happened?

The page you visited could not be found.

What can I do?

If you're a visitor to this site, please try back a bit later.

If you are the owner of this site, please visit Typepad Status for network updates or open a ticket from within your account. If you are unable to open a ticket, please contact us via support@typepad.com.
EDIT: and that's exactly what I get from your Haydn-Seek blog as well.

Maybe it blocks your ISP for some reason. I had 30 visitors overnight, about 1/3 from here, so it must be working for someone. I will send some info to the provider and see what I get back from them. I'm sorry this happens, and also a little pissed. I was counting on Romania to lead the way in the Haydn resurgence! >:( :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on September 25, 2014, 04:36:12 AM

Works for me, as well, FWIW.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on September 25, 2014, 04:43:48 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 25, 2014, 04:33:42 AM
I was counting on Romania to lead the way in the Haydn resurgence! >:( :D

There is a Romanian string quartet named Voces (http://www.festivalenescu.ro/en/artists/voces-quartet (http://www.festivalenescu.ro/en/artists/voces-quartet)) which regularly performs Haydn quartets every season in the Bucharest Radio Concert Hall, and they are so kind as even to offer one or two encores every time. Too bad that at their recitals there are at most 100 people in the audience, in a hall that can seat 800+...

https://www.youtube.com/v/fLlKy_97kf0

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on September 25, 2014, 05:32:08 AM

I never had a problem with the link to the Hogwood & Brüggen reminiscence.

As for the string quartets, there certainly is a thread about them somewhere, hopefully with comments on different recordings. The Aeolian have never been on CD separately, only in big boxes, otherwise I'd probably have sampled them. When I wanted this music 10 or 12 years ago I got the reasonably priced box with the Angeles quartet. This is well played and sounds nice, but there are better recordings out there and by now I have about 3-4 recordings of each opus beginning with op.20 (for 9 and 17 only Festetics and Angeles).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on September 25, 2014, 01:41:14 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 24, 2014, 05:20:16 PM
Just some thought about what the recent passings of Brüggen and Hogwood mean to me. Maybe to you, too?

R.I.P., PIoneers (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/09/friends-of-haydn-rip.html)

8)

Nice, Gurn.

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on September 25, 2014, 02:42:01 PM

Quote from: Florestan on September 25, 2014, 01:55:09 AM
Yesterday I randomly hit at Haydn's symphonies: no. 71 with Antal Dorati and Philharmonia Hungarica. A major discovery. Now I'm having it on repeat, this time with Hogwood. A masterpiece of inventiveness, melodicity and craftsmanship deeply touching the soul. But wait, doesn't this apply to them all?

EDIT: the false endings in the first and last movement are pure genius.

Nice piece, and nice comments. I think I'll spin 71 from this one, haven't listened to it in a while...

[asin]B00006RHQG[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 25, 2014, 02:44:24 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on September 25, 2014, 02:42:01 PM
Nice piece, and nice comments. I think I'll spin 71 from this one, haven't listened to it in a while...

[asin]B00006RHQG[/asin]

Ah yes, I listened to that recording several times last weekend while writing the essay about it. I like it; brasher than some, yet still sensitive in the slow movement. The variations there are da bomb! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on September 26, 2014, 01:18:00 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 24, 2014, 05:20:16 PM
Just some thought about what the recent passings of Brüggen and Hogwood mean to me. Maybe to you, too?

R.I.P., PIoneers (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/09/friends-of-haydn-rip.html)

8)

Wonderful, Gurn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on September 26, 2014, 03:39:27 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 24, 2014, 05:20:16 PM
Just some thought about what the recent passings of Brüggen and Hogwood mean to me. Maybe to you, too?

R.I.P., PIoneers (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/09/friends-of-haydn-rip.html)

8)

I appreciated your thoughtful and personal piece very much. My awareness of period instruments and H.I.P. is more recent than yours but I too value these pioneers.

Bill

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 26, 2014, 04:02:11 PM

Quote from: Florestan on September 26, 2014, 01:18:00 AM
Wonderful, Gurn.

Quote from: Old Listener on September 26, 2014, 03:39:27 PM
I appreciated your thoughtful and personal piece very much. My awareness of period instruments and H.I.P. is more recent than yours but I too value these pioneers.

Bill

Thanks, Andrei and Bill. I didn't realize how much I was personally invested in music until I stopped and took stock of Brüggen, and then Hogwood, who caught me by surprise when he passed. Since I discovered their interpretations of music, it has become a major part of my life. It's not the sort of thing you realize overtly, it just is.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 28, 2014, 08:49:03 AM

It amazes me sometimes, how much intellectual ground one has to cover in order to appreciate a simple piece of music. This one gave me a workout, hope you enjoy it!

Be sensible, Pamela! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/09/1778-the-music-part-2.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on September 28, 2014, 03:36:28 PM

Gadzooks! Presto lists the Hogwood/AAM Haydn box as a new release scheduled for October 27. (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Decca/4806900)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on September 28, 2014, 04:40:33 PM

Quote from: Brian on September 28, 2014, 03:36:28 PM
Gadzooks! Presto lists the Hogwood/AAM Haydn box as a new release scheduled for October 27. (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Decca/4806900)

How does that price compare to previously?

I kind of hate that this seems to happen - that someone's death is an opportunity to make money. It's happened with almost every conductor that's died in the last couple of years while I've been on the forum. But in this case, that's a box I already had on the long-term shopping list.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 28, 2014, 05:00:10 PM

Quote from: orfeo on September 28, 2014, 04:40:33 PM
How does that price compare to previously?

I kind of hate that this seems to happen - that someone's death is an opportunity to make money. It's happened with almost every conductor that's died in the last couple of years while I've been on the forum. But in this case, that's a box I already had on the long-term shopping list.

It seems that at the end of the last release, people reported buying it for ~$75US. This was from places like Amazon Italy, IIRC.

$95US is a fair price, a fraction of what I paid for the originals and for which I have no regrets at all. For a Haydnist, this box is indispensable, IMO. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 28, 2014, 05:41:15 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 28, 2014, 05:00:10 PM
It seems that at the end of the last release, people reported buying it for ~$75US. This was from places like Amazon Italy, IIRC.

$95US is a fair price, a fraction of what I paid for the originals and for which I have no regrets at all. For a Haydnist, this box is indispensable, IMO. :)

Good evening Gurn - believe that I'll have to add the Hogwood box to my list - will complement my current collection (just have Fischer in the earlier works) - however, will wait to see some of the Amazon MP offerings - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 28, 2014, 05:44:52 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on September 28, 2014, 05:41:15 PM
Good evening Gurn - believe that I'll have to add the Hogwood box to my list - will complement my current collection (just have Fischer in the earlier works) - however, will wait to see some of the Amazon MP offerings - Dave :)

That seems like the prudent choice, Dave. I expect the price will come down; the big glut of buying already happened back when it was first re-released, by all the people who missed out on the originals and were waiting for a box version. Price should be reasonable soon after. I just wouldn't wait too long, else you'll end up with the marketing vultures selling the few remainders for $400! :o :o

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on September 29, 2014, 12:26:51 AM

I saw Sarge was listening to the Auryn Quartet playing Haydn a few days ago. Just saw at a local shop, 14 volumes of it (on Tacet). Surely they must have a complete set, but it doesn't seem to come up in any discussions of haydn strings. I guess they have a regular CD set and blu-ray 5.1 audio set as well...

Anyone have any knowledge of (experience with) this? (Sarge?)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on September 29, 2014, 04:02:22 AM

Quote from: Baklavaboy on September 29, 2014, 12:26:51 AM
I saw Sarge was listening to the Auryn Quartet playing Haydn a few days ago. Just saw at a local shop, 14 volumes of it (on Tacet). Surely they must have a complete set, but it doesn't seem to come up in any discussions of haydn strings. I guess they have a regular CD set and blu-ray 5.1 audio set as well...

Anyone have any knowledge of (experience with) this? (Sarge?)

I have not seen a complete set. I do not believe one exists at this point. I bought the individual volumes. They were reasonably priced in Europe (JPC, two for the price of one usually). Worth it in any case. Beautifully and elegantly played in a gorgeous acoustic. Interpretively, kind of the anti-Buchberger.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on September 29, 2014, 04:29:40 AM

The final volumes of the Auryn Quartet cycle are being released in October, so maybe there will be a complete set after that. From what I saw, the last two releases are Blu-Rays.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: torut on October 01, 2014, 03:54:58 PM

Complete Haydn String Quartets by Festetics will be released as a 19-CD box set on Oct 20.

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Arcana/A378 (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Arcana/A378)

(http://i.prs.to/t_200/arcanaa378.jpg)

Will this be released in US? (It was already released in Japan!)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 01, 2014, 03:59:44 PM

Quote from: torut on October 01, 2014, 03:54:58 PM
Complete Haydn String Quartets by Festetics will be released as a 19-CD box set on Oct 20.

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Arcana/A378 (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Arcana/A378)

(http://i.prs.to/t_200/arcanaa378.jpg)

Will this be released in US? (It was already released in Japan!)

Some people were talking about it, I think it was over on the 'New Releases' thread, and they were saying it will be, but much more expensive than in Europe. I only partially paid attention because I already have it, the 2 disk sets, that is... If someone doesn't have them, then this big box would be the way to go, as the individuals are really quite expensive too, and there are 9 of them. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: torut on October 01, 2014, 04:37:15 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 01, 2014, 03:59:44 PM
Some people were talking about it, I think it was over on the 'New Releases' thread, and they were saying it will be, but much more expensive than in Europe. I only partially paid attention because I already have it, the 2 disk sets, that is... If someone doesn't have them, then this big box would be the way to go, as the individuals are really quite expensive too, and there are 9 of them. :-\

8)

Thank you, I found it in the thread. (It will be released on Oct 28 in US, $143.99.)
It's already available at hmv.co.jp for 9,990 JPY. http://www.hmv.co.jp/news/article/1408200025/ (http://www.hmv.co.jp/news/article/1408200025/)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 01, 2014, 06:00:32 PM

New today, and just having my first listen:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnJacobsTheSeasonscover_zps71195516.jpg)

If Greg says I gotta have it, well, I gotta have it! :D Like what I've heard so far :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 01, 2014, 06:03:43 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 01, 2014, 06:00:32 PM
New today, and just having my first listen:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnJacobsTheSeasonscover_zps71195516.jpg)

If Greg says I gotta have it, well, I gotta have it! :D Like what I've heard so far :)

8)

I remain gobsmacked you did not have this one before.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 01, 2014, 06:09:29 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 01, 2014, 06:03:43 PM
I remain gobsmacked you did not have this one before.

Well, I'm sure there is some compelling reason for it. I would probably think that when I first shopped for it, it was OOP and expensive. I didn't notice when it had been re-released. Which is odd, since I have all their Haydn and Mozart too. There was this little tiny crack, and it slipped right through! :)

Was that you who hit me up about it before, Jeffrey? I guess my mind is just going... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 01, 2014, 06:14:06 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 01, 2014, 06:00:32 PM
New today, and just having my first listen:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnJacobsTheSeasonscover_zps71195516.jpg)

If Greg says I gotta have it, well, I gotta have it! :D Like what I've heard so far :)

8)

It's the recording that made me love The Seasons. Enjoy it, Gurn!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 01, 2014, 06:18:46 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 01, 2014, 06:14:06 PM
It's the recording that made me love The Seasons. Enjoy it, Gurn!

Ah, OK, so I'm NOT losing my mind... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 01, 2014, 06:18:58 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 01, 2014, 06:09:29 PM
Well, I'm sure there is some compelling reason for it. I would probably think that when I first shopped for it, it was OOP and expensive. I didn't notice when it had been re-released. Which is odd, since I have all their Haydn and Mozart too. There was this little tiny crack, and it slipped right through! :)

Was that you who hit me up about it before, Jeffrey? I guess my mind is just going... :-\

8)

No it is Greg who deserves the tip of the hat.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 01, 2014, 06:20:30 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 01, 2014, 03:59:44 PM
Some people were talking about it, I think it was over on the 'New Releases' thread, and they were saying it will be, but much more expensive than in Europe. I only partially paid attention because I already have it, the 2 disk sets, that is... If someone doesn't have them, then this big box would be the way to go, as the individuals are really quite expensive too, and there are 9 of them. :-\

RE: Haydn SQs w/ Q. Festetics!

Gurn - I have 12 of their discs, so not interested in the box, but a strong recommendation for PI performances in my mind - the other day I was looking at the reviews on Amazon and came across one about Op. 17 (a 2* only single comment by the infamous Bernard.... - HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-String-Quartets-Op-17/dp/B0000516TZ/ref=sr_1_7?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1412216065&sr=1-7&keywords=haydn+festetics)) - debating whether to add my 2 cents but who would care? Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 01, 2014, 06:31:36 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on October 01, 2014, 06:20:30 PM
Gurn - I have 12 of their discs, so not interested in the box, but a strong recommendation for PI performances in my mind - the other day I was looking at the reviews on Amazon and came across one about Op. 17 (a 2* only single comment by the infamous Bernard.... - HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-String-Quartets-Op-17/dp/B0000516TZ/ref=sr_1_7?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1412216065&sr=1-7&keywords=haydn+festetics)) - debating whether to add my 2 cents but who would care? Dave :)

Yes, Bernard's a hoot. I've engaged him before; Mexican Death Match. Standoff though. Not worth your efforts, I'm afraid.

As to the QF, they certainly ARE worth your efforts. Even though I have roused some scorn, I stick with them. They have equally vehement partisans. I bought them a piece at a time. Took me months, cost hundreds. No box available back then!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on October 01, 2014, 06:36:43 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on October 01, 2014, 06:20:30 PM
Gurn - I have 12 of their discs, so not interested in the box, but a strong recommendation for PI performances in my mind - the other day I was looking at the reviews on Amazon and came across one about Op. 17 (a 2* only single comment by the infamous Bernard.... - HERE (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-String-Quartets-Op-17/dp/B0000516TZ/ref=sr_1_7?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1412216065&sr=1-7&keywords=haydn+festetics)) - debating whether to add my 2 cents but who would care? Dave :)

It's gotten so that if I am browsing at Amazon and see what I know is a good recording with only 2 stars, a bell goes off "O'Hanlon's been here". Just last night I gave a rave review to a Giuliani Mozart disc just to counteract that jerk's preciously ego-maniacal hatchet-work. He's a menace.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 01, 2014, 06:44:58 PM

Quote from: Baklavaboy on October 01, 2014, 06:36:43 PM
It's gotten so that if I am browsing at Amazon and see what I know is a good recording with only 2 stars, a bell goes off "O'Hanlon's been here". Just last night I gave a rave review to a Giuliani Mozart disc just to counteract that jerk's preciously ego-maniacal hatchet-work. He's a menace.

Hi Baklavaboy - LOL! :D Seems like we've all come across O'Hanlon - just irritates me that one 2* review will likely dissuade searchers for these works to look elsewhere - at least a 5* rating might up the rating? Still considering whether to leave a second review? Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on October 01, 2014, 06:57:45 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on October 01, 2014, 06:44:58 PM
Hi Baklavaboy - LOL! :D Seems like we've all come across O'Hanlon - just irritates me that one 2* review will likely dissuade searchers for these works to look elsewhere - at least a 5* rating might up the rating? Still considering whether to leave a second review? Dave :)

He's so persistent and ubiquitous I think he must have some sort of agenda. His hatred of HIP is almost pathological. His review of the Gardiner box is so snide and nasty you wonder what's wrong with the guy. Sometimes his "reviews" are followed by a number of toad-licking agreements from other "reviewers" who suspiciously channel O'Hanlon's sneering, supercilious tone. I wonder if he ghost writes his own commentators...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on October 01, 2014, 07:10:48 PM

Quote from: Baklavaboy on October 01, 2014, 06:36:43 PM
It's gotten so that if I am browsing at Amazon and see what I know is a good recording with only 2 stars, a bell goes off "O'Hanlon's been here". Just last night I gave a rave review to a Giuliani Mozart disc just to counteract that jerk's preciously ego-maniacal hatchet-work. He's a menace.

Can't say I recognize the name.
Here he is

QuoteThe Lang Lang War of 2009 was brutal. I lost a leg. ... Whilst I was recuperating, the Chinese Government nabbed my Liberace-o-meter in a black-opps mission.

Except that this is funnier, it really does sound like what folks here say about Lang Lang....

He does seem to have a superhurwitzian hatred of HIP though.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 02, 2014, 10:29:43 AM

I listened to the 78th symphony today for the first time, the one on Naxos, partly because I'm exploring the minor key symphonies, it's in C minor. Anyway, I couldn't help but think of the first movement Mozart KV 491. Is there a real link there or was it a figment of my imagination?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2014, 10:50:47 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 02, 2014, 10:29:43 AM
I listened to the 78th symphony today for the first time, the one on Naxos, partly because I'm exploring the minor key symphonies, it's in C minor. Anyway, I couldn't help but think of the first movement Mozart KV 491. Is there a real link there or was it a figment of my imagination?

Temporally, it precedes concerto 24 by about 7 years. There is absolutely no reason why Mozart could not have heard it and liked it enough to use a theme or two, although it is also not unusual to find two works in the same key to have a similar accent in their language back then, especially considering the level of the composers. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Marc on October 02, 2014, 11:01:06 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 02, 2014, 10:29:43 AM
I listened to the 78th symphony today for the first time, the one on Naxos, partly because I'm exploring the minor key symphonies, it's in C minor. Anyway, I couldn't help but think of the first movement Mozart KV 491. Is there a real link there or was it a figment of my imagination?

Funny.
I listened to no. 78 yesterday, with Esa-Pekka Salonen.

(http://112.imagebam.com/download/4GRUKqBD1gdxgO8mGHNLXQ/35518/355179050/fjh78ea-eps.jpg)

Concerning the relationship between no. 78 and KV 491: check out this passage from A Chord in Time: The Evolution of the Augmented Sixth from Monteverdi to Mahler by Mark R. Ellis, published in 2010.

(http://110.imagebam.com/download/Pafe5uvO6ixb4P9IWPxehA/35518/355179057/FJHs78%26WAMk491.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on October 02, 2014, 01:39:44 PM

Quote from: orfeo on September 28, 2014, 04:40:33 PM
I kind of hate that this seems to happen - that someone's death is an opportunity to make money. It's happened with almost every conductor that's died in the last couple of years while I've been on the forum. But in this case, that's a box I already had on the long-term shopping list.

I agree. It would be nice if we could think of these releases as a sort of tribute. Unfortunately, that's hard to do when they're being pitched by the same record labels that unceremoniously dumped these guys mid-project.

Just to be clear, I don't begrudge any consumer for buying them.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2014, 02:29:43 PM

Quote from: Marc on October 02, 2014, 11:01:06 AM
Funny.
I listened to no. 78 yesterday, with Esa-Pekka Salonen.

(http://112.imagebam.com/download/4GRUKqBD1gdxgO8mGHNLXQ/35518/355179050/fjh78ea-eps.jpg)

Concerning the relationship between no. 78 and KV 491: check out this passage from A Chord in Time: The Evolution of the Augmented Sixth from Monteverdi to Mahler by Mark R. Ellis, published in 2010.

(http://110.imagebam.com/download/Pafe5uvO6ixb4P9IWPxehA/35518/355179057/FJHs78%26WAMk491.jpg)

Very interesting, Marc. Thanks for sharing. I guess when I get a couple years further down the road, I will get to read that for myself. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2014, 02:32:24 PM

Quote from: Pat B on October 02, 2014, 01:39:44 PM
Just to be clear, I don't begrudge any consumer for buying them.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on October 02, 2014, 09:39:47 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2014, 02:32:24 PM
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

That's a useful graphic for this forum.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Marc on October 03, 2014, 12:42:54 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2014, 02:29:43 PM
Very interesting, Marc. Thanks for sharing. I guess when I get a couple years further down the road, I will get to read that for myself. :)

8)

Well, I haven't read it myself.
Just found it thanks to Google.

:-[

But I had a similar experience as Mandryka and therefore I wanted to check the internet.
I found those listening experiences in one or two neat reviews, too, but I thought that it would be nice to stroke Mandryka's ego (and mine, of course) by throwing in a heavy musicological quote.

;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 05, 2014, 07:11:39 AM

1779 was a year when a lot of things changed for Haydn. Not in the most obvious ways, but in ways which would decisively affect his life and career. I've been looking at some of this, you can too:

...and yet more changes (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/10/1779-the-year-.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on October 05, 2014, 06:15:37 PM

Definitely a fairly significant point in time. Truth be told, Haydn as I know him so far is pretty much all public, not entirely bound to the Prince.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2014, 04:21:44 AM

Quote from: orfeo on October 05, 2014, 06:15:37 PM
Definitely a fairly significant point in time. Truth be told, Haydn as I know him so far is pretty much all public, not entirely bound to the Prince.

Mainly true, from this point on. He did, however, have a deep sense of loyalty due to a couple of factors; the Prince helped him out several times when he needed financial assistance, oftentimes in ways which weren't obviously charity, although retrospectively it may seem so now. Second, and this is maybe a bit strange or not, but I really think that by this time, they had become friends in a way, even if it was based on mutual respect more than commonality. But really, Haydn's music had, by this time, become part of the European cultural scene, and it actually stood in Nicholas' favor to let Haydn appear publicly as 'Actual Kapellmeister to Prince Esterházy'. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on October 06, 2014, 04:31:10 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2014, 04:21:44 AM
the Prince helped him out several times when he needed financial assistance, oftentimes in ways which weren't obviously charity, although retrospectively it may seem so now. Second, and this is maybe a bit strange or not, but I really think that by this time, they had become friends in a way, even if it was based on mutual respect more than commonality.

All that, in stark contrast to JS Bach's treatment by the good burghers of Leipzig...

IMHO, Prince Esterházy I. Miklós deserves at least a bust, if not a statue. Do you know if there are any, Gurn?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2014, 05:45:00 AM

Quote from: Florestan on October 06, 2014, 04:31:10 AM
All that, in stark contrast to JS Bach's treatment by the good burghers of Leipzig...

IMHO, Prince Esterházy I. Miklós deserves at least a bust, if not a statue. Do you know if there are any, Gurn?

I do not know if there are any that are outside of the family museum venue. I think that his role in Haydn's success is vastly underrated, since he was an oppressor of the masses and a perpetuator of Class dichotomy.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on October 06, 2014, 05:47:17 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2014, 05:45:00 AM
he was an oppressor of the masses and a perpetuator of Class dichotomy.... :)

Lenin fits in the bill a thousand times more. ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2014, 05:49:42 AM

Quote from: Florestan on October 06, 2014, 05:47:17 AM
Lenin fits in the bill a thousand times more. ;D ;D ;D

True! In the 19th century, a good part of the reason Haydn was reviled culturally is because he served Esterházy. I won't say more since it all sounds like a cliché, but it is nonetheless true. ::)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 06, 2014, 05:57:58 AM

Will a painting do?
(http://www.esterhazy-palace.com/images/castle/fenyes_miklos.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on October 06, 2014, 11:12:17 AM

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/ALPHA670.jpg)

Haydn Symphonies 1, 39, and 49
Gluck Don Juan (pantomime)

Under the musical direction of Giovanni Antonini, the music project "Haydn2032" was created to realize a vision: to record and perform – in a unique cycle featuring concerts across Europe – all of Joseph Haydn's 107 symphonies by 2032, the 300th anniversary of the composer's birth.
www.haydn2032.com

-

Judging from my listening, this cycle is getting off to a hell of a great start!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2014, 12:14:09 PM

Quote from: Brian on October 06, 2014, 11:12:17 AM
(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/ALPHA670.jpg)

Haydn Symphonies 1, 39, and 49
Gluck Don Juan (pantomime)

Under the musical direction of Giovanni Antonini, the music project "Haydn2032" was created to realize a vision: to record and perform – in a unique cycle featuring concerts across Europe – all of Joseph Haydn's 107 symphonies by 2032, the 300th anniversary of the composer's birth.
www.haydn2032.com

-

Judging from my listening, this cycle is getting off to a hell of a great start!!

I'm quite looking forward to this; I don't see me waiting for the cycle to complete and then waiting for the box to be released... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 06, 2014, 06:49:06 PM

(https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTr0RTp2Gm_7xPE-sLbEiDMW6x2fJ9whKC-dWubIJDx1Dh_jYDbBA)

Made it on to two threads.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on October 08, 2014, 12:58:29 AM

Continuing on through the Paris Symphonies, and today I've encountered No.86 for the first time.

The switch from slow introduction to the beginning of the Allegro is extraordinarily cunning. It took a couple of seconds for my brain to register... hang on, we've changed speed!

I can't recall hearing an effect like that in a classical piece any time recently.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 08, 2014, 03:47:15 AM

I wonder what the masses reaction was to this. Gurn?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 10, 2014, 07:52:37 PM

Re Haydn 2030, ok, I have to ask, 107 symphonies?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 11, 2014, 12:02:26 AM

104 regular ones + 105 (Sinfonia concertante) + the two pieces often called "A" and "B", or sometimes 107 and 108. Both of the latter are early pieces, one of them had ended up without the horn parts in op.1 or op.2.
106 is an ouverture or single movement or so.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 11, 2014, 06:52:39 PM

Some years are better suited than others to show just how broad the range of Haydn's symphonic writing could be. This year, we have a pasticcio of operatic overture and dramatic entr'acte juxtaposed against double invertible counterpoint! See what I mean:

My Fair Roxy (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/10/1779-the-music-part-1-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 11, 2014, 07:05:30 PM

Suggests a nickname for 75: The Banshee.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 11, 2014, 07:20:13 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 11, 2014, 06:52:39 PM
Some years are better suited than others to show just how broad the range of Haydn's symphonic writing could be. This year, we have a pasticcio of operatic overture and dramatic entr'acte juxtaposed against double invertible counterpoint! See what I mean:

My Fair Roxy (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/10/1779-the-music-part-1-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Gurn strikes again! Nice write up of three great symphonies.

"Among the symphonies of the last half of the decade, this is easily the best in terms of showing skill in the true art of composition!" you said of No. 70, and I agree, it's one of Haydn's great symphonies.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2014, 06:22:07 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 11, 2014, 07:20:13 PM
Gurn strikes again! Nice write up of three great symphonies.

"Among the symphonies of the last half of the decade, this is easily the best in terms of showing skill in the true art of composition!" you said of No. 70, and I agree, it's one of Haydn's great symphonies.

Thanks, Greg. I'm glad you liked that turn of phrase; I worked at it for a while. When you are looking at so many superb works it becomes difficult to say anything without repeating yourself! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 12, 2014, 06:37:53 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 11, 2014, 07:05:30 PM
Suggests a nickname for 75: The Banshee.

I'm listening to 75 right now but I'm going to skip the Andante...don't want to tempt fate today.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2014, 06:41:23 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 12, 2014, 06:37:53 AM
I'm listening to 75 right now but I'm going to skip the Andante...don't want to tempt fate today.

Sarge

:D

[but it would still leave you a good month, Sarge!]

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 12, 2014, 07:25:57 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2014, 06:41:23 AM
:D

[but it would still leave you a good month, Sarge!]

8)

75 is so good I had to listen to it twice, including the Andante the second time. Worth it, even if it shortens my life ;D Damn, this is a great symphony.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2014, 07:31:03 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 12, 2014, 07:25:57 AM
75 is so good I had to listen to it twice, including the Andante the second time. Worth it, even if it shortens my life ;D Damn, this is a great symphony.

Sarge

I agree. I listened to it 3 times yesterday while writing about it and didn't strain a bit. I like that Grave intro, it does indeed put one in mind of the London symphonies. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 12, 2014, 07:34:32 AM

I like 75 and also the lighter 63, but 70 has been one of my great favorites since I heard the Rattle recording almost 20 years ago (I bought this disc at Seattle's downtown Tower records in 95 or 96 when I was a visiting student at the U of Washington). It is an extremely concentrated and "systematic" piece. Both the andante and the finale are demonstrations of counterpoint and in addition oscillate between the major and the minor mode. While the andante may be one of the first examples of Haydn's "double variations", the finale is rather unique. Although there are some echos in later pieces with both fugal and "minore" sections, e.g. the finales of #95 and 101, none of them is as severe and rather humorless and no other symphonic finale of a Haydn symphony in a major key starts (and remains for the main part) in the minor.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2014, 07:42:59 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on October 12, 2014, 07:34:32 AM
I like 75 and also the lighter 63, but 70 has been one of my great favorites since I heard the Rattle recording almost 20 years ago (I bought this disc at Seattle's downtown Tower records in 95 or 96 when I was a visiting student at the U of Washington). It is an extremely concentrated and "systematic" piece. Both the andante and the finale are demonstrations of counterpoint and in addition oscillate between the major and the minor mode. While the andante may be one of the first examples of Haydn's "double variations", the finale is rather unique. Although there are some echos in later pieces with both fugal and "minore" sections, e.g. the finales of #95 and 101, none of them is as severe and rather humorless and no other symphonic finale of a Haydn symphony in a major key starts (and remains for the main part) in the minor.

Indeed so, #70 (and all three of these works) present some unique aspects of Haydn's skill. I like the variations in the Andante because they not only vary mode, they vary style too. The phrases in the major mode are almost galant while those in the minor are somberly stile antico. It is the ability to seamlessly blend these styles which demonstrates the height of art, which is to say, the art is hidden while just the results are left to enjoy. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 12, 2014, 08:12:47 AM

Crud. I do not have a 75 on the shelf. Will the Fischer do?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2014, 08:18:07 AM

Quote from: Bogey on October 12, 2014, 08:12:47 AM
Crud. I do not have a 75 on the shelf. Will the Fischer do?

It would certainly do for me! That's my go-to set when I need to fill a gap (like #79 & 81). :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 12, 2014, 10:23:40 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2014, 08:18:07 AM
It would certainly do for me! That's my go-to set when I need to fill a gap (like #79 & 81). :)

8)

Well, not having the 100+ memorized, this one started off with a flurry. Would be cool to see it performed live. This will have to do

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HY8bf2It44

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2014, 11:34:33 AM

Quote from: Bogey on October 12, 2014, 10:23:40 AM
Well, not having the 100+ memorized, this one started off with a flurry. Would be cool to see it performed live. This will have to do

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HY8bf2It44

That was a really nice performance. Yes, once in a great while I wish I lived elsewhere, and it is nearly always for the reason of being able to enjoy live performances again. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on October 12, 2014, 11:38:22 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2014, 11:34:33 AM
That was a really nice performance. Yes, once in a great while I wish I lived elsewhere, and it is nearly always for the reason of being able to enjoy live performances again. :-\

8)

I went ahead and took in all four movements, so my second 75 of the day. Does not seem to be a disc of the performance.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 13, 2014, 05:26:21 PM

Well, Haydnistos, if you have 52 minutes to spare, you might take in this YouTube vid, a 1985 broadcast documentary which is really very very nice. The friend from British Haydn Society who linked me to it did so because Malcolm Bilson is in it, doing little bit on the harpsichord and an interesting speaking part. But it is loaded with such goodies including some symphonic movement played by L'Estro Armonico /Solomons, for example, and the Esterházy Baryton Trio, as well as lots and lots of nice scenic footage around Kismarton and Eszterháza.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxzFmfWBR14

OK, well I still have hell posting YouTube links that work. Just click and go. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 14, 2014, 04:17:22 AM

http://www.youtube.com/v/nxzFmfWBR14

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 14, 2014, 04:18:33 AM

The secret:

Code Select

[flash=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/v/nxzFmfWBR14[/flash]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 14, 2014, 04:19:20 AM

And, frankly, if I did not have that patch of code handy, I should be every bit as fogged, myself.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on October 14, 2014, 04:29:25 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 13, 2014, 05:26:21 PM
Well, Haydnistos, if you have 52 minutes to spare, you might take in this YouTube vid, a 1985 broadcast documentary which is really very very nice. The friend from British Haydn Society who linked me to it did so because Malcolm Bilson is in it, doing little bit on the harpsichord and an interesting speaking part. But it is loaded with such goodies including some symphonic movement played by L'Estro Armonico /Solomons, for example, and the Esterházy Baryton Trio, as well as lots and lots of nice scenic footage around Kismarton and Eszterháza.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxzFmfWBR14

OK, well I still have hell posting YouTube links that work. Just click and go. :)

8)

Very enjoyable all round. Thanks for putting it up (and thanks Karl, too, for the alternate link).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2014, 04:32:24 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 14, 2014, 04:19:20 AM
And, frankly, if I did not have that patch of code handy, I should be every bit as fogged, myself.

Thanks, Karl. Honestly, I've tried doing precisely that same thing in the past with still poor results. I attribute to either not having the magically correct combination of size parameters or else innate inability to grasp what's happening. Either or both. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2014, 04:33:38 AM

Quote from: Baklavaboy on October 14, 2014, 04:29:25 AM
Very enjoyable all round. Thanks for putting it up (and thanks Karl, too, for the alternate link).

Bilson was a mere lad back then, eh? Tempora mutantur... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 14, 2014, 04:42:36 AM

In the immortal words of Bugs, "[He] may not be much to look at now, but [he] was somebody's baby wunst . . . ."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on October 14, 2014, 04:51:44 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2014, 04:32:24 AM
Thanks, Karl. Honestly, I've tried doing precisely that same thing in the past with still poor results. I attribute to either not having the magically correct combination of size parameters or else innate inability to grasp what's happening. Either or both. :-\

8)

It can be a pain to edit the address from ... .com/watch?v= ... to .... .com/v/...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on October 14, 2014, 04:58:20 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2014, 04:33:38 AM
Bilson was a mere lad back then, eh? Tempora mutantur... :)

8)

The whole thing looked more like 1975 than 1985 to me, both the documentary style, and the fashions (well, hair, anyway). I wonder if the performances may have predated the film by a good while? Or maybe European fashion just took longer to liberate itself from the aesthetic desolation that was the 70s (not that the 80s were wildly better...).
My favorite thing was the nice big chunks of music. It made me think how much better Ken Burns' 12 hour "Jazz" documentary would have been if he had actually liked and trusted jazz enough to put in jazz music (instead of an endless succession of talking heads).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2014, 05:13:33 AM

Quote from: North Star on October 14, 2014, 04:51:44 AM
It can be a pain to edit the address from ... .com/watch?v= ... to .... .com/v/...

If it was as easy as that, Scandinavians would be dong it... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2014, 05:15:06 AM

Quote from: Baklavaboy on October 14, 2014, 04:58:20 AM

My favorite thing was the nice big chunks of music. It made me think how much better Ken Burns' 12 hour "Jazz" documentary would have been if he had actually liked and trusted jazz enough to put in jazz music (instead of an endless succession of talking heads).

Yes, that's what I liked too. Not just a bar here or there, but generally an entire movement, which is not the same as an entire piece, but still way better than one usually gets. Even a baryton trio! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on October 14, 2014, 05:16:17 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2014, 05:13:33 AM
If it was as easy as that, Scandinavians would be dong it... :D

8)

Aye, those Swedes, Norwegians & Danes are ideal for the job. It's been a couple of years since my last trip in Scandinavia, actually.. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 14, 2014, 05:28:16 AM

Quote from: North Star on October 14, 2014, 05:16:17 AM
Aye, those Swedes, Norwegians & Danes are ideal for the job. It's been a couple of years since my last trip in Scandinavia, actually.. 8)

Reminds me of a joke (or is it?) which I read in (I think) one number of The Reader's Digest from long, long ago:

To most of the world, Yankee means "an American." But to an American in the South, Yankee means a Northerner; in the North, Yankee means a New Englander; in New England, Yankee means a Vermonter; in Vermont, Yankee means your neighbor who likes sharp cheddar cheese on his apple pie.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2014, 05:38:49 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 14, 2014, 05:28:16 AM
Reminds me of a joke (or is it?) which I read in (I think) one number of The Reader's Digest from long, long ago:

To most of the world, Yankee means "an American." But to an American in the South, Yankee means a Northerner; in the North, Yankee means a New Englander; in New England, Yankee means a Vermonter; in Vermont, Yankee means your neighbor who likes sharp cheddar cheese on his apple pie.

Um, no, that's no joke. It's the story of my life. *cuts the cheese*.... 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on October 14, 2014, 06:07:24 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 14, 2014, 05:28:16 AM
Reminds me of a joke (or is it?) which I read in (I think) one number of The Reader's Digest from long, long ago:

To most of the world, Yankee means "an American." But to an American in the South, Yankee means a Northerner; in the North, Yankee means a New Englander; in New England, Yankee means a Vermonter; in Vermont, Yankee means your neighbor who likes sharp cheddar cheese on his apple pie.

:D

Reminds me of this (http://www.snotr.com/video/675/A_blonde_and_a_3rd_grade_geography_question), too. :laugh:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 14, 2014, 09:18:56 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 14, 2014, 05:28:16 AM
Reminds me of a joke (or is it?) which I read in (I think) one number of The Reader's Digest from long, long ago:

To most of the world, Yankee means "an American." But to an American in the South, Yankee means a Northerner; in the North, Yankee means a New Englander; in New England, Yankee means a Vermonter; in Vermont, Yankee means your neighbor who likes sharp cheddar cheese on his apple pie.

Interesting. Noone in the UK would ever dream of eating cheddar cheese with apple pie. Cheshire Cheese, yes. Or best of all, Wenslydale.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2014, 09:56:43 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 14, 2014, 09:18:56 AM
Interesting. Noone in the UK would ever dream of eating cheddar cheese with apple pie. Cheshire Cheese, yes. Or best of all, Wenslydale.

We Vermonters wouldn't either, unless it had maple syrup on top. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 14, 2014, 12:16:28 PM

Cheese? you are crazy. Whipped cream is the proper dairy product to go with any variant of apple pie. With some of them also vanilla ice cream.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2014, 12:40:03 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on October 14, 2014, 12:16:28 PM
Cheese? you are crazy. Whipped cream is the proper dairy product to go with any variant of apple pie. With some of them also vanilla ice cream.

Clearly you aren't a Vermonter... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 14, 2014, 12:50:07 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on October 14, 2014, 12:16:28 PM
Cheese? you are crazy. Whipped cream is the proper dairy product to go with any variant of apple pie. With some of them also vanilla ice cream.

Le sucré salé est plus sucré que le sucré sucré.

Michel Tournier turns this paradox into a piece of major wisdom, in a wonderful little Christmas tale, part of his Rois Mages series of short stories - where the salé becomes a tear. I don't know if it's in English.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 14, 2014, 12:55:37 PM

No, I a Hessian (but with my head attached) which is a region (historically rather poor and mostly too cold for grapes/wine) where apples used to be very important, for some kind of hard cider as well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 14, 2014, 02:18:27 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on October 14, 2014, 12:55:37 PM
No, I a Hessian (but with my head attached) which is a region (historically rather poor and mostly too cold for grapes/wine) where apples used to be very important, for some kind of hard cider as well.

When I was growing up in Vermont (in the 1950's), there were only 3 things we were known for: dairy products (especially cheese), apples (all kinds, even what are called today 'heirloom' varieties) and maple syrup (was and is the best anywhere, perfect climate for it). So, apple pie with (Cabot) cheddar cheese and maple syrup was a grand slam! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on October 15, 2014, 12:36:34 AM

Vermont cheese is top notch from my limited experience (last year, a few days in Burlington).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2014, 04:14:32 AM

Quote from: orfeo on October 15, 2014, 12:36:34 AM
Vermont cheese is top notch from my limited experience (last year, a few days in Burlington).

My home town. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 15, 2014, 09:02:31 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2014, 04:14:32 AM
My home town. :)

8)

Is there really a coat factory there?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sammy on October 15, 2014, 09:16:35 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 15, 2014, 09:02:31 AM
Is there really a coat factory there?

No. Burlington started out in Burlington, New Jersey. I could be wrong, but I think the headquarters remains in New Jersey.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 15, 2014, 09:26:41 AM

Quote from: Sammy on October 15, 2014, 09:16:35 AM
No. Burlington started out in Burlington, New Jersey. I could be wrong, but I think the headquarters remains in New Jersey.

Goes looking online....
Website refers to Southern NJ.
Truth to tell, I don't particularly like their stores (always a mess when I've gone in to look), and my sense of propriety tells me New Jersey is far more appropriate for them than Vermont.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 15, 2014, 09:37:05 AM

Like "Springfield," there's a Burlington in many a state (Mass. being one).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2014, 09:58:52 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 15, 2014, 09:37:05 AM
Like "Springfield," there's a Burlington in many a state (Mass. being one).

Illinois and North Carolina too. It's a good old Anglo-Saxon sort of a name. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 15, 2014, 09:59:57 AM

We did pick up some local maple cream while in the Kaatskills, but I've not yet performed a taste test.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on October 15, 2014, 03:19:25 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 11, 2014, 06:52:39 PM
Some years are better suited than others to show just how broad the range of Haydn's symphonic writing could be. This year, we have a pasticcio of operatic overture and dramatic entr'acte juxtaposed against double invertible counterpoint! See what I mean:

My Fair Roxy (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/10/1779-the-music-part-1-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Really enjoying this series, thanks. 75 is a real beauty.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2014, 03:44:57 PM

Quote from: Daverz on October 15, 2014, 03:19:25 PM
Really enjoying this series, thanks. 75 is a real beauty.

Thank you kindly, Dave. You're right, 75 is an unheralded peach. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on October 17, 2014, 02:41:20 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2014, 04:14:32 AM
My home town. :)

8)

If I'd known I could have dropped by the family home!

Cycling along Lake Champlain was bliss.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2014, 04:09:45 AM

Quote from: orfeo on October 17, 2014, 02:41:20 AM
If I'd known I could have dropped by the family home!

Cycling along Lake Champlain was bliss.

Lovely indeed. That is a nice place to be from, quite honestly. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 17, 2014, 04:48:08 AM

Beats Elizabeth, New Jersey . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 17, 2014, 04:50:18 AM

Fair disclosure: I am not from Elizabeth, nor do I actually know anyone who is.

Coincidence? . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2014, 05:39:40 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 17, 2014, 04:50:18 AM
Fair disclosure: I am not from Elizabeth, nor do I actually know anyone who is.

Coincidence? . . .

Sez you... >:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 17, 2014, 05:51:44 AM

Today, I am grateful simply that I am not a hospital administrator in The Lone Star State . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 17, 2014, 10:53:13 AM

Posted in the New Releases thread but certainly applicable here
http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,11592.msg839132.html#msg839132

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2014, 05:30:20 PM

Some of Haydn's finest keyboard works came from 1779, I've been reading and writing and listening, you're invited to see what I found. :)

The first Siri (Kolo, that is) (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/10/1779-the-music-part-2-.html)

Hope you enjoy,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2014, 07:26:57 AM

I just bought this set, it should be here early next week.

[asin]B00H927FFK[/asin]

It looks quite interesting, it is an English version (I currently have Hogwood and Macreesh in English) using the 1803 text revision which is supposed to be far more fluent than the 1798 original. I have read about it, now a chance to hear it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on October 23, 2014, 07:02:18 AM

I'm a long time fan of Nicholas McGegan and the Philharmonia Baroque orchestra. I just got this CD of Haydn symphonies 88,101 and 104 by them.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NrAtimlXL.jpg)

Amazon link: http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B004YF8Y9G/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B004YF8Y9G/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)

Excellent recordings and performances that I'll enjoy many times in coming years.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 23, 2014, 09:28:06 AM

Quote from: Old Listener on October 23, 2014, 07:02:18 AM
I'm a long time fan of Nicholas McGegan and the Philharmonia Baroque orchestra. I just got this CD of Haydn symphonies 88,101 and 104 by them.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51NrAtimlXL.jpg)

Amazon link: http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B004YF8Y9G/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B004YF8Y9G/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)

Excellent recordings and performances that I'll enjoy many times in coming years.

Yes, it IS a fine disk. I enjoy their realization of #88 in particular. I'm surprised to not see it mentioned more often. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 26, 2014, 07:46:40 AM

Maybe we hit on the ideal opera for the great majority: short and sweet, excellent music and an interesting cast of just 4 people! What's not to like? Check out my latest essay and find out about the Desert Island, where Haydn introduces Metastasio to Gluck (all over again). :)

If you are not a tiger... (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/10/1779-the-music-part-3-.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on October 26, 2014, 10:24:43 AM

is this any good?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51uIHYay%2BML._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 26, 2014, 12:47:13 PM

Quote from: Florestan on October 26, 2014, 10:24:43 AM
is this any good?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51uIHYay%2BML._SL500_AA280_.jpg)

I think Dorati did a great job on the 8 operas he did. He has some fine singers in all of the productions. In some of them, his is still the only recorded version, and it is no hardship to have to rely on that! On the downside, there are no liner notes. When originally released in single operas, they had excellent notes, but Philips trashed them all. I know this because these are the versions I have, these two boxes. Eventually they consolidated them into one big box, but still no notes... :-\

8)

Edit: I don't mean to say no liner notes at all, but rather there is a track listing and then a short synopsis of the plot of each one. As I understand, even this is an improvement over what they provided in the one big box!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 26, 2014, 03:28:29 PM

I REALLY like this. Already a fan of Il Giardino armonico and their sound, especially their dynamite Vivaldi recordings. But I was blown away by the dynamic flexibility of these Haydn performances, between the energy and beauty, and how every phrase is meticulously presented.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91s58f6wJxL._SL350_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 26, 2014, 03:48:28 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 26, 2014, 03:28:29 PM
I REALLY like this. Already a fan of Il Giardino armonico and their sound, especially their dynamite Vivaldi recordings. But I was blown away by the dynamic flexibility of these Haydn performances, between the energy and beauty, and how every phrase is meticulously presented.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91s58f6wJxL._SL350_.jpg)

Greg, did you get the CD or download? I thought the CD was still just on pre-order. :-\ Sounds great though, I have a lot of their Vivaldi, that's why I was so eagerly anticipating this Haydn cycle! :)'

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on October 26, 2014, 04:14:32 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 26, 2014, 03:48:28 PM
Greg, did you get the CD or download? I thought the CD was still just on pre-order. :-\ Sounds great though, I have a lot of their Vivaldi, that's why I was so eagerly anticipating this Haydn cycle! :)'

8)

Available on Spotify, but will preorder the disc for sure. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 26, 2014, 04:21:45 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 26, 2014, 04:14:32 PM
Available on Spotify, but will preorder the disc for sure. 8)

Ah, gotcha. I already have. Supposed to come out Tuesday. Odd it has the Gluck on there after I just finished writing a little bit about him today. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on October 26, 2014, 07:04:13 PM

I have this amazing disc in my Vivarte "big box". The back says the composer is Haydn. Am I right in assuming this is just an egregious misprint?

[asin]B000002APL[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 26, 2014, 07:07:56 PM

Quote from: Baklavaboy on October 26, 2014, 07:04:13 PM
I have this amazing disc in my Vivarte "big box". The back says the composer is Haydn. Am I right in assuming this is just an egregious misprint?

[asin]B000002APL[/asin]

Yes, you are correct. Looking down the listing, I would say that none of the individual contents, small sacred pieces, are Haydn either. Something which often happens, but not in this case. What an odd mistake! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 26, 2014, 07:11:53 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 26, 2014, 12:47:13 PM
I think Dorati did a great job on the 8 operas he did. He has some fine singers in all of the productions. In some of them, his is still the only recorded version, and it is no hardship to have to rely on that! On the downside, there are no liner notes. When originally released in single operas, they had excellent notes, but Philips trashed them all. I know this because these are the versions I have, these two boxes. Eventually they consolidated them into one big box, but still no notes... :-\

8)

Edit: I don't mean to say no liner notes at all, but rather there is a track listing and then a short synopsis of the plot of each one. As I understand, even this is an improvement over what they provided in the one big box!

The box has track listings and brief synopses in English, French, and German.
I suppose one of these years I will actually listen to it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on October 26, 2014, 07:20:41 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 26, 2014, 07:07:56 PM
Yes, you are correct. Looking down the listing, I would say that none of the individual contents, small sacred pieces, are Haydn either. Something which often happens, but not in this case. What an odd mistake! :)

8)

I came very close to raving about the incredible genius of Haydn in the "now listening thread", who could make some of the most beautiful polyphonic choral music I had ever heard (on top of everything else) before growing suspicious. I'm glad I showed a little restraint :-[

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 28, 2014, 07:55:14 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on October 26, 2014, 03:28:29 PM
I REALLY like this. Already a fan of Il Giardino armonico and their sound, especially their dynamite Vivaldi recordings. But I was blown away by the dynamic flexibility of these Haydn performances, between the energy and beauty, and how every phrase is meticulously presented.

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91s58f6wJxL._SL350_.jpg)

Just ordered it, Classical Music Superstore has it in stock today. Should be here by the weekend. Hoping the packaging matches the quality of the music-making! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 28, 2014, 08:25:03 AM

I know I eagerly await your report, O Gurn!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on October 29, 2014, 04:25:27 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 28, 2014, 07:55:14 AM
Just ordered it, Classical Music Superstore has it in stock today. Should be here by the weekend. Hoping the packaging matches the quality of the music-making! :)

8)

I have listened to it two times and it's excellent, but... I mean it's excellent Haydn, but not too much distinctive compared to the best interpretations available. I had wanted (but I accept this is my problem) that they had played their Haydn as they play Gluck in the same CD: as if they were completely mad for the music, as if Haydn hadn't been played before, wild and "disheveled". Anyway, I know I will be quite alone about this. :)

BTW, the Gluck interpretation is outstanding.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 29, 2014, 04:47:10 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2014, 07:26:57 AM
I just bought this set, it should be here early next week.

[asin]B00H927FFK[/asin]

It looks quite interesting, it is an English version (I currently have Hogwood and Macreesh in English) using the 1803 text revision which is supposed to be far more fluent than the 1798 original. I have read about it, now a chance to hear it. :)

Quote from: Gordo on October 29, 2014, 04:25:27 PM
I have listened to it two times and it's excellent, but... I mean it's excellent Haydn, but not too much distinctive compared to the best interpretations available. I had wanted (but I accept this is my problem) that they had played their Haydn as they play Gluck in the same CD: as if they were completely mad for the music, as if Haydn hadn't been played before, wild and "disheveled". Anyway, I know I will be quite alone about this. :)

BTW, the Gluck interpretation is outstanding.

Gordo,
Thanks for the feedback. I don't think, really, that you are the only one who would wish for some unbuttoned, wild Haydn! The music is there, waiting to be taken, Il Giardino would be the group to take it! As Greg mentions, they dd so with Vivaldi.

I haven't received that yet, but today I got the disk above, The Creation with Musica Saeculorum. I don't know anything about this group, my first recording by them. They appear to be quite well stocked with musicians, judging by the list of players. I was hoping, though that the liner notes would discuss the translation used here. But all it says is this on the box (and only in German):
Oratorium in drei Teilen Gesungen in der englischen Textfassung des Erstdrucks von 1803

which I take to mean:
Oratorio in three parts sung in the English version of the text of the first edition from 1803

I'm interested to know more about this 1803 edition; it doesn't jibe up with what I've been able to find out so far (just cursory browsing though, since I've only had it for about 3 hours), but Temperley in the Cambridge "The Creation" doesn't have any mention of anything in 1803. It is possible that the actual release of the score to the public occurred then, I guess. What they are really doing, I think, is separating themselves from McCreesh's admittedly self-edited libretto. In any case, we shall see how it turned out, the libretto may be the least of their worries!! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 29, 2014, 06:06:18 PM

Here is the 1803 edition of the score. A reprint of the 1800 score by B&H in Liepzig. http://imslp.org/wiki/Die_Schöpfung%2C_Hob._21:2_%28Haydn%2C_Joseph%29

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 29, 2014, 06:09:23 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 29, 2014, 06:06:18 PM
Here is the 1803 edition of the score. A reprint of the 1800 score by B&H in Liepzig. http://imslp.org/wiki/Die_Schöpfung%2C_Hob._21:2_%28Haydn%2C_Joseph%29

Somehow your link got garbled, but this is it, thanks for looking it up!!

The Creation score (http://imslp.org/wiki/Die_Sch%C3%B6pfung%2C_Hob._21:2_%28Haydn%2C_Joseph%29)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 29, 2014, 06:13:24 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 29, 2014, 06:06:18 PM
Here is the 1803 edition of the score. A reprint of the 1800 score by B&H in Liepzig. http://imslp.org/wiki/Die_Schöpfung%2C_Hob._21:2_%28Haydn%2C_Joseph%29

Cool! I have the Dover score, but this is very interesting. I'll have to have a go at following along from this!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 30, 2014, 03:09:27 AM

Always something of interest in da Haus!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on October 30, 2014, 02:29:30 PM

A new (I think) recording of the Haydn Sinfonia Concertante by Abbado and Orchestra Mozart

http://www.amoeba.com/mozart-oboe-concerto-k-314-j-haydn-sinfonia-concertante-hob-i-105-claudio-abbado/albums/3351845/ (http://www.amoeba.com/mozart-oboe-concerto-k-314-j-haydn-sinfonia-concertante-hob-i-105-claudio-abbado/albums/3351845/)

I've downloaded it and the Mozart Oboe Concerto from Amoeba.com but not yet listened to either performance.

The Abbado / COE recording is my favorite for the Sinfonia Concertante and I've enjoyed the Abbado / Orchestra Mozart recordings I've heard.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 30, 2014, 03:03:01 PM

Quote from: Old Listener on October 30, 2014, 02:29:30 PM
A new (I think) recording of the Haydn Sinfonia Concertante by Abbado and Orchestra Mozart

http://www.amoeba.com/mozart-oboe-concerto-k-314-j-haydn-sinfonia-concertante-hob-i-105-claudio-abbado/albums/3351845/ (http://www.amoeba.com/mozart-oboe-concerto-k-314-j-haydn-sinfonia-concertante-hob-i-105-claudio-abbado/albums/3351845/)

I've downloaded it and the Mozart Oboe Concerto from Amoeba.com but not yet listened to either performance.

The Abbado / COE recording is my favorite for the Sinfonia Concertante and I've enjoyed the Abbado / Orchestra Mozart recordings I've heard.

I'll be interested to hear what you think of it. I've never heard that band play anything, but I am a Abbado fan. When I saw the name I was thinking it might be that PI orchestra he did the Mozart violin concertos with a couple years back, but apparently not.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 30, 2014, 03:16:50 PM

It should be the same group, and not only the VCs.. Going by their Mozart, Papa was in good hands.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51H9kiR9LCL.jpg)
contains everything except the newish CDs of piano concertos with Argerich.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on October 30, 2014, 03:55:30 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 30, 2014, 03:16:50 PM
It should be the same group, and not only the VCs.. Going by their Mozart, Papa was in good hands.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51H9kiR9LCL.jpg)
contains everything except the newish CDs of piano concertos with Argerich.

Yes. I just praised that yesterday. A Hurwitzer CD from Hell to boot!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Cosi bel do on October 30, 2014, 04:16:38 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 30, 2014, 03:03:01 PM
I'll be interested to hear what you think of it. I've never heard that band play anything, but I am a Abbado fan. When I saw the name I was thinking it might be that PI orchestra he did the Mozart violin concertos with a couple years back, but apparently not.

8)

The Mozart Orchestra (http://www.orchestramozart.com/)is the last orchestra Abbado created, around 10 years ago in Bologna, with many members of the Mahler Chamber Orchestra and other young stars. It sounds actually a lot like the Mahler CO. Almost all recordings made by Abbado with the Mozart Orchestra in his late years are magnificent (if a little too perfect, too formal sometimes).

It is not a period instruments orchestra, but it sounds a little like if it was, as always with Abbado during his last 20 years, when he decided to learn his lesson in HIP without changing instruments, with a great result, a little artificial maybe, but very seductive.

I heard them in concert once : an incredibly dense and splendidly played Egmont overture, a very boring and inflated reading of Schumann's concerto with Lupu (but this was more Lupu's fault...), and a superb Schumann 2nd Symphony (on CD here (http://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B00CCTU7VE/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1642&creative=19458&creativeASIN=B00CCTU7VE&linkCode=as2&tag=bpclass-21&linkId=XCZLD52ASXMFUAWD)).
He also did a few Mozart CDs with them (including concertos with Argerich, Pires), the Berg & Beethoven violin concertos with Isabelle Faust (on HM), and the Brandenburg concertos with Carmignola.

The Haydn recording should be something too, I'll wait for a CD release (ASIN B00OGU66N0). I would have liked Abbado to perform more Haydn in these last years, instead of re-doing the same Mozart symphonies again and again...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 30, 2014, 04:22:58 PM

Quote from: Ken B on October 30, 2014, 03:55:30 PM
Yes. I just praised that yesterday. A Hurwitzer CD from Hell to boot!

When did he do that? (Looked on CT website but did not see any rating that suggested it was from The Other Place.,)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 30, 2014, 05:46:42 PM

Quote from: Cosi bel do on October 30, 2014, 04:16:38 PM
The Mozart Orchestra (http://www.orchestramozart.com/)is the last orchestra Abbado created, around 10 years ago in Bologna, with many members of the Mahler Chamber Orchestra and other young stars. It sounds actually a lot like the Mahler CO. Almost all recordings made by Abbado with the Mozart Orchestra in his late years are magnificent (if a little too perfect, too formal sometimes).

It is not a period instruments orchestra, but it sounds a little like if it was, as always with Abbado during his last 20 years, when he decided to learn his lesson in HIP without changing instruments, with a great result, a little artificial maybe, but very seductive.

I heard them in concert once : an incredibly dense and splendidly played Egmont overture, a very boring and inflated reading of Schumann's concerto with Lupu (but this was more Lupu's fault...), and a superb Schumann 2nd Symphony (on CD here (http://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B00CCTU7VE/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1642&creative=19458&creativeASIN=B00CCTU7VE&linkCode=as2&tag=bpclass-21&linkId=XCZLD52ASXMFUAWD)).
He also did a few Mozart CDs with them (including concertos with Argerich, Pires), the Berg & Beethoven violin concertos with Isabelle Faust (on HM), and the Brandenburg concertos with Carmignola.

The Haydn recording should be something too, I'll wait for a CD release (ASIN B00OGU66N0). I would have liked Abbado to perform more Haydn in these last years, instead of re-doing the same Mozart symphonies again and again...

Thanks for the info. I only noted their existence en passant, actually because people here spoke about it. Someone originally stated they were PI and no one corrected it, so I just took that inaccurate 'factoid' with me. Still, I would like to hear them, and likely will this time! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on October 30, 2014, 06:43:36 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 30, 2014, 05:46:42 PM
Thanks for the info. I only noted their existence en passant, actually because people here spoke about it. Someone originally stated they were PI and no one corrected it, so I just took that inaccurate 'factoid' with me. Still, I would like to hear them, and likely will this time! :)

8)

I am just this minute listening to them play 102.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on October 30, 2014, 07:49:38 PM

Quote from: Ken B on October 30, 2014, 06:43:36 PM
I am just this minute listening to them play 102.

are you listening to an Abbado / Orchestra Mozart recording, broadcast or perhaps an Abbado / COE recording from a DG CD?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on October 30, 2014, 08:35:40 PM

Quote from: Old Listener on October 30, 2014, 07:49:38 PM
are you listening to an Abbado / Orchestra Mozart recording, broadcast or perhaps an Abbado / COE recording from a DG CD?

Oops, right you are COE.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 31, 2014, 03:30:30 AM

Quote from: Ken B on October 30, 2014, 03:55:30 PM
Yes. I just praised that yesterday. A Hurwitzer CD from Hell to boot!

I've long suspected that the Hurwitzer actually enjoys suffering . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 31, 2014, 03:56:35 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 30, 2014, 04:22:58 PM
When did he do that? (Looked on CT website but did not see any rating that suggested it was from The Other Place.,)

Ken is referring to an Insider review titled "CD From Hell: Abbado Plays Mozart with Authentic Amateurs"

[asin]B0015RWCVM[/asin]

Some highlights:

"Abbado drifts about appearing at festivals in front of pick-up ensembles and has the European press fawning and drooling over the result as if these ad-hoc organizations really can match the polish and personality of the world's finest regularly constituted orchestras[....]All that means is that major labels can record relatively inexperienced kids with big-name conductors on the cheap, and frankly this band really fits that description. The strings sound thin and weak, the trumpets and drums like toy instruments in a performance of The Nutcracker. The woodwinds define the word "characterless[...]Then again, timbre seems to be irrelevant to Abbado these days. Instead, he offers a complex of tediously predictable mannerisms. Loud phrases invariably taper off to feminine endings[...]The engineering certainly doesn't help–the acoustic is extremely dry and unflattering."

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 31, 2014, 04:00:22 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 31, 2014, 03:56:35 AM
Ken is referring to an Insider review titled "CD From Hell: Abbado Plays Mozart with Authentic Amateurs"

[asin]B0015RWCVM[/asin]

Some highlights:

"Abbado drifts about appearing at festivals in front of pick-up ensembles and has the European press fawning and drooling over the result as if these ad-hoc organizations really can match the polish and personality of the world’s finest regularly constituted orchestras[....]All that means is that major labels can record relatively inexperienced kids with big-name conductors on the cheap, and frankly this band really fits that description. The strings sound thin and weak, the trumpets and drums like toy instruments in a performance of The Nutcracker. The woodwinds define the word “characterless[...]Then again, timbre seems to be irrelevant to Abbado these days. Instead, he offers a complex of tediously predictable mannerisms. Loud phrases invariably taper off to feminine endings..."

Thanks, Sarge! I should go back and listen to a symphony or two. I certainly do not recall anything on the order of "the woodwinds define the word “characterless" offending the ears of this woodwind player.

But in more than one of his harshly negative reviews, the Hurwitzer has done an excellent imitation of someone (in the parlance of the Ozarks) trying to fart higher than his [anus].

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on October 31, 2014, 04:59:42 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 31, 2014, 03:56:35 AM
Ken is referring to an Insider review titled "CD From Hell: Abbado Plays Mozart with Authentic Amateurs"

[asin]B0015RWCVM[/asin]

Some highlights:

"Abbado drifts about appearing at festivals in front of pick-up ensembles and has the European press fawning and drooling over the result as if these ad-hoc organizations really can match the polish and personality of the world's finest regularly constituted orchestras[....]All that means is that major labels can record relatively inexperienced kids with big-name conductors on the cheap, and frankly this band really fits that description. The strings sound thin and weak, the trumpets and drums like toy instruments in a performance of The Nutcracker. The woodwinds define the word "characterless[...]Then again, timbre seems to be irrelevant to Abbado these days. Instead, he offers a complex of tediously predictable mannerisms. Loud phrases invariably taper off to feminine endings[...]The engineering certainly doesn't help–the acoustic is extremely dry and unflattering."

Sarge

Yes Sarge has it exactly. I haven't heard it all yet but what I have heard I like.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 31, 2014, 05:10:27 AM

Quote from: Ken B on October 31, 2014, 04:59:42 AM
Yes Sarge has it exactly. I haven't heard it all yet but what I have heard I like.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on October 31, 2014, 06:36:40 AM

Big band Haydn certainly has its charms. I'm playing Monteux conducting the 101 right now. No complaints.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 02, 2014, 07:09:46 AM

Quote from: Baklavaboy on October 31, 2014, 06:36:40 AM
Big band Haydn certainly has its charms. I'm playing Monteux conducting the 101 right now. No complaints.

Haydn can withstand most forms of abuse. Monteux, though, is not an abuser. His worst sin in those days was not having access to a score that hadn't been heavily shat upon by 15 publishers over a 175 year period. Can't blame him for that! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 02, 2014, 07:17:02 AM

1780 was one of those years, you could hardly say that nothing happened, but how to look at it? Here's what I came up with:

Lookin' for love (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/11/1780-the-year.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on November 02, 2014, 01:18:06 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 02, 2014, 07:17:02 AM
1780 was one of those years, you could hardly say that nothing happened, but how to look at it? Here's what I came up with:

Lookin' for love (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/11/1780-the-year.html)

I always enjoy and learn from your year essays. Thanks for sharing your insights.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 02, 2014, 01:42:18 PM

Quote from: Old Listener on November 02, 2014, 01:18:06 PM
I always enjoy and learn from your year essays. Thanks for sharing your insights.

Thanks for your kind words. I hope these tidbits help people to enjoy the music that much more. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 02, 2014, 06:27:17 PM

Bloody hell, these damn YouTube things! >:(

http://youtube/v/aHJolteDIzc

Well, perhaps if you copy and paste the code it will work for you. Certainly worth your while, this is a very interesting little vid... *sigh*

8)

http://youtu.be/aHJolteDIzc

and this is the entire work performed straight through, interesting after seeing the other one.

http://youtu.be/guNwUxM4fKs

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 03, 2014, 10:32:27 AM

Al vostro servizio!

http://www.youtube.com/v/aHJolteDIzc

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 03, 2014, 10:33:23 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 02, 2014, 06:27:17 PM
and this is the entire work performed straight through, interesting after seeing the other one.

http://www.youtube.com/v/guNwUxM4fKs

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 04, 2014, 05:04:06 PM

And today I received my copy:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSymphonies2032Vol01_zpse452ee68.jpg)

If you know Il Giardino's Vivaldi, then you have certain expectations for their Haydn. Not least, exuberance. And that is here, along with the certain je ne sais quoi which separates good performance from inspired. Listen to the 2nd movement Allegro molto of #49 and you can sense the biting anticipation of each musician waiting for the chance to get his word in. The only thing I haven't listened to yet is the Gluck, not out of any reticence, but because I have never heard any of the ballet before, and so I can't mentally compare it to anything in my experience, while the 3 symphonies, 1, 39 & 49 are all close personal friends. I am fully prepared to love this set, if I live long enough to see it all. I should be able to buy the final disk on my 80th birthday if all goes well. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 05, 2014, 06:24:01 AM

Behold!

http://www.youtube.com/v/NVTrluuuFBU

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2014, 11:25:27 AM

Question for anyone (particularly El Gordo) who might know;

I have never known DHM to release any disk which was not on period instruments. I recently bought a copy of this disk:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PmO0mpRoL.jpg)

which came to me as an EMI rather than a DHM, otherwise identical in every way. No where that I have looked, including all online resources nor the liner notes or anything, does it say whether this group, the Residenzkammerorchester München, plays PI's or not. Seems strange. I will be listening to it tonight for the first time, should have answers then, but am curious if anyone knows more about it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on November 06, 2014, 04:22:55 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2014, 11:25:27 AM
Question for anyone (particularly El Gordo) who might know;

I have never known DHM to release any disk which was not on period instruments. I recently bought a copy of this disk:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51PmO0mpRoL.jpg)

which came to me as an EMI rather than a DHM, otherwise identical in every way. No where that I have looked, including all online resources nor the liner notes or anything, does it say whether this group, the Residenzkammerorchester München, plays PI's or not. Seems strange. I will be listening to it tonight for the first time, should have answers then, but am curious if anyone knows more about it. :)

8)

It's really strange because they actually play modern instruments.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2014, 04:33:41 PM

Quote from: Gordo on November 06, 2014, 04:22:55 PM
It's really strange because they actually play modern instruments.

Exactly my thought, and as I am discovering now (still on the Kyrie of the Missa brevis). I don't think I ever saw a DHM disk on modern instruments: the exception which proves the rule! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on November 06, 2014, 04:50:49 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 04, 2014, 05:04:06 PM
I am fully prepared to love this set, if I live long enough to see it all. I should be able to buy the final disk on my 80th birthday if all goes well. :)

We need to schedule a Haydn convention for March 31, 2032, naturally in Texas... :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2014, 04:54:00 PM

Quote from: Gordo on November 06, 2014, 04:50:49 PM
We need to schedule a Haydn convention for March 31, 2032, naturally in Texas... :)

I will be proud to host it. Some children, not yet born, will perform live the finest interpretations of the string quartets since Tomasini and Kraft departed.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2014, 05:02:46 PM

Gordo, you know how when non-PI people post that the PI performance sounds flat to them? We sort of laugh a little bit and maybe not know exactly what they are talking about, maybe it's the drugs....

Well, I have never heard the Nikolaimesse on anything but PI, and I now listen to this and everything sounds very sharp to me, especially the Knabenchor. It is exactly the same effect only in reverse! They are doing well, but it sounds ... not well to me! :o

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on November 06, 2014, 05:07:31 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2014, 04:54:00 PM
I will be proud to host it. Some children, not yet born, will perform live the finest interpretations of the string quartets since Tomasini and Kraft departed.... :)

8)

Talking about departure, two days ago I ordered the set of symphonies conducted by Brüggen.

For some reason, it only seems to be available on the German store JPC.

Currently its price is EUR 25.20 (VAT excluded), a certain relief in order to compensate the high shipping rates outside Europe.

(https://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0028948022823.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2014, 05:12:37 PM

Quote from: Gordo on November 06, 2014, 05:07:31 PM
Talking about departure, two days ago I ordered the set of symphonies conducted by Brüggen.

For some reason, it only seems to be available on the German store JPC.

Currently its price is EUR 25.20 (VAT excluded), a certain relief in order to compensate the high shipping rates outside Europe.

(https://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0028948022823.jpg)

Right after Hogwood's death, I posted something about it must be time for a re-release of the Haydn symphonies (which came the next day!) and someone else posted that this same Brüggen set had just been released. Of course, I have all of it already, but it took me far longer to round it up and cost a lot more than €25 :o :o

It would be neat to have it in one package that way, but unless it becomes easier than buying from jpc, I will stick with what I have, I think. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on November 06, 2014, 05:17:03 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2014, 05:02:46 PM
Gordo, you know how when non-PI people post that the PI performance sounds flat to them? We sort of laugh a little bit and maybe not know exactly what they are talking about, maybe it's the drugs....

Well, I have never heard the Nikolaimesse on anything but PI, and I now listen to this and everything sounds very sharp to me, especially the Knabenchor. It is exactly the same effect only in reverse! They are doing well, but it sounds ... not well to me! :o

8)

Well, exactly what I think. I never understood when some people say that PI sound sharp compared to MI.

Is it a children chorus, isn't it?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2014, 05:20:48 PM

Quote from: Gordo on November 06, 2014, 05:17:03 PM
Well, exactly what I think. I never understood when some people say that PI sound sharp compared to MI.

Is it a children chorus, isn't it?

Domsingknaben = Boys Choir Knabe is the root of English 'knave', although then it meant boy, not rogue! :D

At least I think all this to be true.

PI sounds sharp is so totally illogical! :o

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on November 06, 2014, 05:36:52 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2014, 05:20:48 PM
Domsingknaben = Boys Choir Knabe is the root of English 'knave', although then it meant boy, not rogue! :D

At least I think all this to be true.

PI sounds sharp is so totally illogical! :o

8)

I guess Sarge won't agree, but this kind of choir is a nice touch. The masses conducted by Simon Preston are a good example.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on November 06, 2014, 05:37:20 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 04, 2014, 05:04:06 PM
And today I received my copy:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnSymphonies2032Vol01_zpse452ee68.jpg)

If you know Il Giardino's Vivaldi, then you have certain expectations for their Haydn. Not least, exuberance. And that is here, along with the certain je ne sais quoi which separates good performance from inspired. Listen to the 2nd movement Allegro molto of #49 and you can sense the biting anticipation of each musician waiting for the chance to get his word in. The only thing I haven't listened to yet is the Gluck, not out of any reticence, but because I have never heard any of the ballet before, and so I can't mentally compare it to anything in my experience, while the 3 symphonies, 1, 39 & 49 are all close personal friends. I am fully prepared to love this set, if I live long enough to see it all. I should be able to buy the final disk on my 80th birthday if all goes well. :)

8)

My copy landed today and verily playeth in mine player even now.
I do have a question. Those photographs at the front are excellent, but what is their connection to the music?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2014, 05:42:15 PM

Quote from: Gordo on November 06, 2014, 05:36:52 PM
I guess Sarge won't agree, but this kind of choir is a nice touch. The masses conducted by Simon Preston are a good example.

Agreed, very nice. The Tafelmusik disks of Mozart and Haydn using the Tolzer Knabenchor are excellent too. And the Raimund Hug Freiburger Domsingknaben yet another. I like the sound, at least when used at A = 415.... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2014, 05:43:58 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 06, 2014, 05:37:20 PM
My copy landed today and verily playeth in mine player even now.
I do have a question. Those photographs at the front are excellent, but what is their connection to the music?

I'm thinking Rorschach... :D Anyway, what is your first impression?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2014, 05:48:59 PM

Quote from: Gordo on November 06, 2014, 05:46:53 PM
HAYDN 2032 - Volume 1 "La Passione" with Giovanni Antonini & Il Giardino Armonico:

http://vimeo.com/105021775

Is it the same as this one?

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg845380.html#msg845380

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on November 06, 2014, 05:59:35 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2014, 05:43:58 PM
I'm thinking Rorschach... :D Anyway, what is your first impression?

8)

Makes me look forward to the rest of their cycle. God willing I live long enough!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2014, 06:01:57 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 06, 2014, 05:59:35 PM
Makes me look forward to the rest of their cycle. God willing I live long enough!

We are agreed then: we shall make a pact to see it through! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2014, 06:04:16 PM

Quote from: Gordo on November 06, 2014, 06:00:21 PM
I didn't see it had been posted before... Using the Occam's razor I will immediately delete it. :)

No matter, it is a nice little blurb for those on the fence. It is interesting to hear Antonini's thoughts on the matter. While you are looking at videos, the one I asked Karl to post for me of the St. Lawrence SQ dissecting the meat of Op 76 #3 is a highly interesting exposition for the non-musician. I was quite taken. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on November 06, 2014, 06:11:41 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2014, 06:04:16 PM
No matter, it is a nice little blurb for those on the fence. It is interesting to hear Antonini's thoughts on the matter. While you are looking at videos, the one I asked Karl to post for me of the St. Lawrence SQ dissecting the meat of Op 76 #3 is a highly interesting exposition for the non-musician. I was quite taken. :)

8)

Very interesting, indeed.

BTW, these days I have fought strongly to avoid purchasing of the complete set by Los Angeles String Quartet, the only complete set that I don't have. Some months ago I even completed the incomplete set by The Salomon String Quartet. I'm so proud of me. ;D :D ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2014, 06:23:52 PM

Quote from: Gordo on November 06, 2014, 06:11:41 PM
Very interesting, indeed.

BTW, these days I have fought strongly to avoid purchasing of the complete set by Los Angeles String Quartet, the only complete set that I don't have. Some months ago I even completed the incomplete set by The Salomon String Quartet. I'm so proud of me. ;D :D ;D

:) I have the Salomon set also, in many parts it is brilliant, in some, less so. I am pleased to have it though. I don't have much on MI, the only complete set is the Kodaly. Lots of singles here and there though. No temptation for the Angeles.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on November 06, 2014, 06:40:10 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2014, 06:23:52 PM
:) I have the Salomon set also, in many parts it is brilliant, in some, less so. I am pleased to have it though. I don't have much on MI, the only complete set is the Kodaly. Lots of singles here and there though. No temptation for the Angeles.... :)

8)

I confess my temptation is pure completism. For instance, I doubt I will listen to the Aeolian again, but it's there on the shelves and it gives me some mental relief. :D

I think I currently have every disk of string quartets recorded on PI and, no doubt, among them are my favorites, but I think quite highly about the Tátrai and the Kodály. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2014, 07:03:04 PM

Quote from: Gordo on November 06, 2014, 06:40:10 PM
I confess my temptation is pure completism. For instance, I doubt I will listen to the Aeolian again, but it's there on the shelves and it gives me some mental relief. :D

I think I currently have every disk of string quartets recorded on PI and, no doubt, among them are my favorites, but I think quite highly about the Tátrai and the Kodály. :)

I like the Kodaly too. It was my first set, the first time I heard any except Op 76 (where I still have the brilliant Carmina pair).

Hard to believe you have every PI SQ. Even I don't say that, and I have a pisspot full. Do you even have this one?

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnFitzwilliamsOp16712772cover_zps46024a63.jpg)

Thousands don't. I have every one I know about, I will say that. I still look all the time to see if something new comes along. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on November 06, 2014, 07:10:57 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2014, 07:03:04 PM
I like the Kodaly too. It was my first set, the first time I heard any except Op 76 (where I still have the brilliant Carmina pair).

Hard to believe you have every PI SQ. Even I don't say that, and I have a pisspot full. Do you even have this one?

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnFitzwilliamsOp16712772cover_zps46024a63.jpg)

Thousands don't. I have every one I know about, I will say that. I still look all the time to see if something new comes along. :)

8)

The Fitzwilliams did PI?
I have their DSCH cycle.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on November 06, 2014, 07:22:40 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2014, 07:03:04 PM
I like the Kodaly too. It was my first set, the first time I heard any except Op 76 (where I still have the brilliant Carmina pair).

Hard to believe you have every PI SQ. Even I don't say that, and I have a pisspot full. Do you even have this one?

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnFitzwilliamsOp16712772cover_zps46024a63.jpg)

Thousands don't. I have every one I know about, I will say that. I still look all the time to see if something new comes along. :)

8)

Good job, sir. You have ruined my night... I don't have that. >:( :D

I didn't even know its existence.

The Book of Genesis is right: knowledge is man's perdition. It would be great being as St. Francis of Assisi, who said I want very few things and those few things I want, I don't want them greatly. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on November 06, 2014, 07:29:43 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 06, 2014, 07:10:57 PM
The Fitzwilliams did PI?
I have their DSCH cycle.

QuoteComposés par Mr. Hayden
Haydn:
Cassation in C major, Hob.III:6
String Quartet, Op. 71 No. 2 in D major
String Quartet, Op. 77 No. 2 in F major
Fitzwilliam Quartet

On March 2nd 1969 the Fitzwilliam String Quartet made its first ever public appearance – for Fitzwilliam College Music Society in Cambridge (hence its name). By a happy coincidence the forty-year milestone for the FSQ also coincided with the 200th anniversary of arguably the greatest of all composers for string quartet, Franz Joseph Haydn (1732–1809). This man's reputation has for too long suffered beyond the horizons he himself broadened; his achievements have too often been eclipsed by those of his successors. It was only natural that, as one of the great innovators, he should create not just a magnificent treasury of music himself but also limitless possibilities on which others might build. While he may never equal the popular appeal of his young friend Mozart, 2009 went some considerable way towards reminding us of his towering presence in our musical history and heritage. The music speaks for itself, but the mission of the performers must be the responsibility of presenting it in the best possible light.

The Fitzwilliam Quartet were heavily involved with Haydn during his anniversary year, but the present performances were recorded many years earlier, at a public concert on 1st February 2001 at Royal Holloway College. At that time the quartet's personnel was in transition, but happily this recording captures Jonathan Cohen's brief sojourn as cellist. Period instruments were used, and there were no retakes or edits at all. The selection of works literally spans the beginning and end of Haydn's career as a quartet composer, from his earliest set of Divertimenti a quattro to what might be considered one of the greatest string quartets of all time, and framing one of the first quartets ever written specifically for public performance.

Founded in 1968 by four Cambridge undergraduates, the Fitzwilliam Quartet first became well known through its close personal association with Dmitri Shostakovich, who befriended them following a visit to York to hear them play. He entrusted them with the Western premières of his last three quartets, and before long they had become the first ever group to perform and record all fifteen. These recordings, which gained many international awards, secured for them a world wide concert schedule, and a long term contract with Decca/London which embraced some byways of late Romantic repertoire (including Franck, Delius, Borodin, and Sibelius) before they embarked on a Beethoven cycle. Indeed, the Shostakovich set was included in Gramophone magazine's "Hundred Greatest-ever Recordings" in November 2005.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 07, 2014, 04:26:15 AM

Quote from: Gordo on November 06, 2014, 07:22:40 PM
Good job, sir. You have ruined my night... I don't have that. >:( :D

I didn't even know its existence.

The Book of Genesis is right: knowledge is man's perdition. It would be great being as St. Francis of Assisi, who said I want very few things and those few things I want, I don't want them greatly. :)

And there was darkness over the land, and great grinning issued forth.... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on November 07, 2014, 10:25:52 AM

While I was ordering the Fitzwilliam, I realized that I don't have this one neither:

http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Seven-Words-Christ-Cross/dp/B003H5L6Y4

... and any recording sponsored by Jaap Schröder is an instant recommendation to me.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 07, 2014, 11:04:42 AM

Quote from: Gordo on November 07, 2014, 10:25:52 AM
While I was ordering the Fitzwilliam, I realized that I don't have this one neither:

http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Seven-Words-Christ-Cross/dp/B003H5L6Y4

... and any recording sponsored by Jaap Schröder is an instant recommendation to me.

:)

I have seen that disk, but could see nothing about it, so I didn't do anything further about it. So, it is gut strings, Classical bows etc? That would be splendid, I was thinking about another SQ version! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on November 07, 2014, 11:13:27 AM

Yes, totally PI.

Unfortunately, I haven't found any source to listen to some excerpts (not even jpc!); but I'm confident because I have two excellent Schubert disks by them. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on November 07, 2014, 11:26:41 AM

.[asin]B00KH6JLFM[/asin]

BTW, I finished the first listen of the keyboard works played by Bobby Mitchell on Alpha.

It's one of the most delightful recordings of this music that I have listened to the last time.

This kid takes a lot of (risky) decisions, but all of them work out superbly and his 1775 Stein is just gorgeous.

A must-have, IMHO.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 07, 2014, 11:27:05 AM

Quote from: Gordo on November 07, 2014, 11:13:27 AM
Yes, totally PI.

Unfortunately, I haven't found any source to listen to some excerpts (not even jpc!); but I'm confident because I have two excellent Schubert disks by them. :)

Well, I did some looking around and pulled the trigger on it. Schubert, eh? Interesting. He was a bigtime copier of Haydn. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 07, 2014, 11:29:09 AM

Quote from: Gordo on November 07, 2014, 11:26:41 AM
.[asin]B00KH6JLFM[/asin]

BTW, I finished the first listen of the keyboard works played by Bobby Mitchell on Alpha.

It's one of the most delightful recordings of these music that I have listened to the last time.

This kid takes a lot of (risky) decisions, but all of them work out superbly and his 1775 Stein is just gorgeous.

A must-have, IMHO. :)

Absolutely. I got it the day it was released, have enjoyed it several times since. Yes, he is brave, and I also like the way he ties everything together with chromatic bridge passages of his own device. This is extremely authentic and enjoyable. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on November 07, 2014, 11:40:46 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 07, 2014, 11:29:09 AM
Absolutely. I got it the day it was released, have enjoyed it several times since. Yes, he is brave, and I also like the way he ties everything together with chromatic bridge passages of his own device. This is extremely authentic and enjoyable. :)

8)

Yes! He knows how to take full advantage of the wonderful palette of colors of this Stein. Many times I almost cried out: No, Timmy, that's too risky, almost Romantic! But he always succeed... ;D

(http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140201144637/mangakaart/es/images/c/c0/TIMMY_TURNER.png)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 07, 2014, 11:51:27 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 08, 2014, 06:19:36 PM
We have talked about the impending release of this disk a few times here, I finally got it today:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardBobbyMitchellcover_zps2816d1a5.jpg)

Portrait of an Extraordinary Musical Dog by Phillip Reinagle (1805)

If you love the sound of the fortepiano, this is a must-have! Mitchell (he is a 'new talent award winner') is a very fine player indeed, and the selection of music is a fine blend too. He takes 2 sonatas from the 'Dedicated to the Prince' set of 1774, the F and the Eb (Hob 23 & 28), the C major Hob 48, then the Adagio & Variations in F 17:9 and the one in f 17:6. In between each of them he plays a very short chromatic interlude beginning in the key of the previous and ending in the key of the new work. So, F to Eb - Eb to C - C to F and then just dropping down to f minor for the finale. The entire thing is a non-stop 76 minutes. The fortepiano sound is great, but you have to like fortepianos, you can't be concentrating on 'shit, I would love to hear this on a Steinway' or some such thing. It wouldn't work on one anyway, plus the variety of tonal colors of this instrument is fabulous, and he gets them all out. I'm delighted! :)

8)

Here is the simple thing I wrote about it on Day 1. I still find it very recommendable. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on November 07, 2014, 11:56:47 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 07, 2014, 11:51:27 AM
Here is the simple thing I wrote about it on Day 1. I still find it very recommendable. :)

8)

I hadn't seen this message, but it's amazingly similar to the opinion I have written now. Of course, [mine is] less eloquent and informed, but centrally quite similar, even identical. You're such smart guy! ;D :D ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 07, 2014, 12:05:49 PM

Quote from: Gordo on November 07, 2014, 11:56:47 AM
I hadn't seen this message, but it's amazingly similar to the opinion I have written now. Of course, [mine is] less eloquent and informed, but centrally quite similar, even identical. You're such smart guy! ;D :D ;D

You are far too humble, sir. Mine is just mumbo-jumbo compared to... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on November 07, 2014, 12:16:23 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 07, 2014, 12:05:49 PM
You are far too humble, sir. Mine is just mumbo-jumbo compared to... :)

8)

While I was listening to, I had constantly this image in mind: Haydn alone, without other people in the room, playing this music for himself... without any kind of shyness.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 07, 2014, 12:23:04 PM

Quote from: Gordo on November 07, 2014, 12:16:23 PM
While I was listening to, I had constantly this image in mind: Haydn alone, without other people in the room, playing this music for himself... without any kind of shyness.

I always have that picture when I listen to clavichord realizations. It is not what one usually thinks of, I think, but is probably closer to reality than the view with audience. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on November 07, 2014, 12:30:29 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 07, 2014, 12:23:04 PM
I always have that picture when I listen to clavichord realizations. It is not what one usually thinks of, I think, but is probably closer to reality than the view with audience. :)

8)

I couldn't be more in agreement... I think "intimacy" is the proper word.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 07, 2014, 12:51:58 PM

Quote from: Gordo on November 07, 2014, 12:30:29 PM
I couldn't be more in agreement... I think "intimacy" is the proper word.

Precisely so. You remember, Haydn told Dies how he composed, all his life, he would sit down at the Klavier every morning and extemporize until he found something which appealed to him, and then he would develop it into a full-blown composition. A perfect playing of one of his works should feel to me as being freshly past this stage, right after they come out of the oven, so to speak. :) Hard to beat a clavichord for that, but a really good harpsichord or fortepiano can do it. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on November 07, 2014, 01:46:22 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 07, 2014, 12:51:58 PM
Precisely so. You remember, Haydn told Dies how he composed, all his life, he would sit down at the Klavier every morning and extemporize until he found something which appealed to him, and then he would develop it into a full-blown composition. A perfect playing of one of his works should feel to me as being freshly past this stage, right after they come out of the oven, so to speak. :) Hard to beat a clavichord for that, but a really good harpsichord or fortepiano can do it. 0:)

8)

Well, that is it: some people think Pi are some kind of fetishism, without understanding that HIP is about hermeneutics: to understand the language of human beings from two or three hundred years ago and to reestablish it to its original conditions in order to understand properly its message (the famous message in the bottle). Of course, our knowledge about those historical conditions is poor and usually presumptive, but it shouldn't prevent us to try of removing the patina. I think. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 09, 2014, 09:25:57 AM

It's a shame, really, that certain works get the greatest share of acclaim, while others, quite, if not equally, interesting, are virtually unheard. The 2 symphonies of 1780 seem to fall into that category, and for reasons I haven't quite tumbled to yet. You can find out more about them if you would like:

All's quiet on the home front (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/11/1780-the-music-part-1-.html)

Thanks!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 11, 2014, 11:04:40 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 09, 2014, 09:25:57 AM
All's quiet on the home front (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/11/1780-the-music-part-1-.html)

Always a pleasure to read your latest blog entry while listening to the music.

Edit: 62 is utterly delightful! It was one of the last Haydn symphonies I acquired and it's always a fresh listen, as though for the first time.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 11, 2014, 01:13:44 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 11, 2014, 11:04:40 AM
Always a pleasure to read your latest blog entry while listening to the music.

Edit: 62 is utterly delightful! It was one of the last Haydn symphonies I acquired and it's always a fresh listen, as though for the first time.

Sarge

Thanks, Sarge, I really appreciate that. :) As for #62, I have to tell you, I've had it for a long time, but apparently I never really listened closely to it before. It is sort of unprepossessing, so to speak. But really,it is an excellent work, but on the quieter side. It is easy to understand why it didn't get votes in the 'Top 15' poll, only because I think a lot of people have just never listened to it! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on November 11, 2014, 03:19:31 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 11, 2014, 01:13:44 PM
Thanks, Sarge, I really appreciate that. :) As for #62, I have to tell you, I've had it for a long time, but apparently I never really listened closely to it before. It is sort of unprepossessing, so to speak. But really,it is an excellent work, but on the quieter side. It is easy to understand why it didn't get votes in the 'Top 15' poll, only because I think a lot of people have just never listened to it! :)

i don't think a top 15 makes much sense for haydn symphonies. top 40 is better and top 60 is even more sensible.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 11, 2014, 04:20:01 PM

Quote from: Old Listener on November 11, 2014, 03:19:31 PM
i don't think a top 15 makes much sense for Haydn symphonies. top 40 is better and top 60 is even more sensible.

Yes, well I tried to do it, but dismally failed. Changed my mind an hour later, and again an hour after that. But you know, you try to play the game. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on November 11, 2014, 11:23:34 PM

We could do a a top 15 where, say 82-88 and 92-104 are not eligible, because it is silently presumed they would be top 35 anyway.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 12, 2014, 04:20:23 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on November 11, 2014, 11:23:34 PM
We could do a a top 15 where, say 82-88 and 92-104 are not eligible, because it is silently presumed they would be top 35 anyway.

That would produce some interesting results, I would think. Sturm und Drang would have a chance to kick ass! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on November 12, 2014, 04:50:41 AM

To get more interesting one might have to ban 6-8, 44 and 45 (and maybe a few more) as well. Than people would really be forced to listen to the other ones...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 12, 2014, 04:55:16 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on November 12, 2014, 04:50:41 AM
To get more interesting one might have to ban 6-8, 44 and 45 (and maybe a few more) as well. Than people would really be forced to listen to the other ones...

and 49. That still leaves more great symphonies to choose from than most composers ever wrote. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Cosi bel do on November 12, 2014, 04:55:32 AM

I think the right question could be : what's your top 15 of Haydn "untitled" symphonies ?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on November 12, 2014, 05:41:11 AM

Real challenge.

Pick the five worst Haydn symphonies. The five you can do without, the five that could have disappeared and we would be no wiser.

>:D >:D >:D :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 12, 2014, 06:02:09 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 12, 2014, 05:41:11 AM
Real challenge.

Pick the five worst Haydn symphonies. The five you can do without, the five that could have disappeared and we would be no wiser.

>:D >:D >:D :P

Geez, I don't know; someone must have already done that, 'cause... 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 12, 2014, 06:05:11 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on November 11, 2014, 11:23:34 PM
We could do a a top 15 where, say 82-88 and 92-104 are not eligible, because it is silently presumed they would be top 35 anyway.

Quote from: Jo498 on November 12, 2014, 04:50:41 AM
To get more interesting one might have to ban 6-8, 44 and 45 (and maybe a few more) as well. Than people would really be forced to listen to the other ones...

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 12, 2014, 04:55:16 AM
and 49. That still leaves more great symphonies to choose from than most composers ever wrote. 0:)

8)

Okay, let's see what happens when I eliminate those from my Top 31

1 D major
5 A major
15 D major
30 C major "Alleluja"
31 D major "Hornsignal"
34 D minor
35 B flat
36 E flat
39 G minor
41 C major
42 D major
~~44 E minor "Trauer"~~
48 C major "Maria Theresia"
51 B flat
52 C minor
57 D major
65 A major
67 F major
72 D major
73 D major "La Chasse"
78 C minor
80 D minor
~~83 G minor "Hen"~~
~~85 B flat "La Reine"~~
90 C major
92 G major "Oxford
~~93 D major~~
~~95 C minor~~
~~99 E flat~~
~~100 G major "Military"~~
~~101 D major "Clock"~~

So, I could easily do a Top 15 without relying on the Paris and Londons.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 12, 2014, 06:11:21 AM

Top 31? :D I love it...

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on November 12, 2014, 06:26:47 AM

There are great (and quite popular) unnamed ones, e.g. 86, 95, 97-99, 102, so that's not such a tough restriction.

5 least favorite would also force me to relisten... I think I could do without most unnamed ones among the first 30, I guess (an exception that spontaneously comes to mind is 21 which is overshadowed by 22, but may actually be better).

If I combine the restrictions no nickname, none of Paris, London and neither 88 and 92, I would nominate as favorites something like

90, 80, 70, 46, 52, 78, 75, 42, 91,...

but to be fair I would have to relisten to at least two dozen more candidates (mostly from the 40s, 50s and 70s or maybe 39 or 21...). Even with some notes/comments from listening to all of them in 08/09 I'd have to refresh my memory.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on November 12, 2014, 11:14:52 AM

I've seen 39 nicknamed The Fist. Not a name for it that I think I'll use myself.

http://www.classicalarchives.com/work/50039.html

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 12, 2014, 01:12:09 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 12, 2014, 06:11:21 AM
Top 31? :D I love it...

8)

I tried, I really tried to whittle it down to an even 30 but just couldn't do it ;D 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on November 12, 2014, 02:08:29 PM

starting with all 104, there are about 60 that are in my regular rotation. i like another two dozen well enough but i just can't remember them as well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 12, 2014, 02:49:12 PM

I can honestly say that I can (and usually do) pick any one or two at random and be perfectly happy with them. True, sometimes I want to hear one in particular, but that's the exception. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Moonfish on November 14, 2014, 09:32:48 AM

I noticed that there is a pre-release notice of Goberman's Haydn Symphonies (14 cds) at Amazon.jp. I did not come across much about hime here at GMG and understand that his recordings have been available (cd-r?) from the Haydn.house.
http://www.haydnhouse.com/max_goberman.htm (http://www.haydnhouse.com/max_goberman.htm)
According to the Amazon.UK blurb below it appears as if the Sony release is a new remastering of those recordings? Could anybody expand our knowledge about Goberman's Haydn? :)

Feb 9, 2015 at Amazon JP - available for pre-order
http://www.amazon.co.jp/Max-Goberman-Symphonies-Haydn/dp/B00PCCX0NA (http://www.amazon.co.jp/Max-Goberman-Symphonies-Haydn/dp/B00PCCX0NA)

listed at Amazon UK
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Max-Goberman-The-Symphonies-Haydn/dp/B00PCCX0NA (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Max-Goberman-The-Symphonies-Haydn/dp/B00PCCX0NA)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71XXtF28F5L._SL1500_.jpg)

from Amazon UK
"Just over 50 years after his untimely death at the age of only 51, Sony Classical is proud to make available once again the pioneering recordings of Haydn symphonies which the American conductor Max Goberman made in Vienna in the early 1960s and which, had he lived, would have formed part of the first ever complete recording of the great Austrian composer's symphonic works.

Initially released on LP by Goberman's own subscription label, the Library of Recorded Masterpieces, and originally packaged in deluxe gatefold sleeves, these historic recordings not only boasted state-of-the-art 3-track stereo sonics and authentically idiomatic playing by the Vienna State Opera Orchestra, but also took advantage of the latest musicological research to present startlingly fresh reinterpretations of these classic masterpieces in a lively, slimmed-down style that foreshadowed the historically informed period-instrument performances of today.

Born in Philadelphia in 1911, and a student of both Leopold Auer (violin) and Fritz Reiner (conducting), Max Goberman was one of the most promising and enterprising American maestros of his time, equally at home in the concert hall, the opera house, the ballet theatre, on Broadway and in the recording studio. Having joined the Philadelphia Orchestra as a violinist while still in his teens, he soon formed his own orchestra, the New York Sinfonietta, which became noted for its adventurous programming. He later became chief conductor of both New York City Opera and Ballet Theatre (forerunner to American Ballet Theatre), while enjoying a parallel career on Broadway as musical director for such hit shows as Billion Dollar Baby, Where's Charley?, A Tree Grows in Brooklyn and, most notably, Bernstein's West Side Story.

But Goberman was also an entrepreneur, founding his own Library of Recorded Masterpieces label with the aim of recording the complete orchestral works of Vivaldi and the complete symphonies of Haydn for sale to subscribers by mail order. Sadly, he had only managed to record 75 of Vivaldi's concertos and 45 of Haydn's symphonies before dying from a heart attack on New Year's Eve 1962.

A few of Goberman's Haydn recordings were later released on CBS's Odyssey label, but with severely compromised sound, the bizarre decision having been taken to hold back the centre channel of the 3-track master tapes, thus obscuring much of the woodwind and brass detail that made the original LRM releases so special. Newly remastered from the original 3-track tapes wherever they were available, Sony Music's new 14-CD set thus restores these historic recordings to pristine condition and general circulation for the very first time."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 15, 2014, 10:08:40 AM

Non-lovers of opera get to miss out on a lot of Haydn's work in this part of his career. Much of it is damned fine too. I took a short look and a long listen to the 1780 contribution, and put some thoughts down here. Have a look!

No, it isn't Nessie! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/11/1780-the-music-part-2-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 17, 2014, 05:32:58 PM

Quote from: Gordo on November 07, 2014, 10:25:52 AM
While I was ordering the Fitzwilliam, I realized that I don't have this one neither:

http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Seven-Words-Christ-Cross/dp/B003H5L6Y4

... and any recording sponsored by Jaap Schröder is an instant recommendation to me.

:)

And 'this one' is this one:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn7LastWordsStringQuartetSkaacutelholtcover_zps65399ee3.jpg)

which I am listening to for the first time as I type this. On the 4th word now... Mulier, ecce filius tuus, et tu, ecce mater tua!... quite wonderful. The recording itself has a different sound: I would venture that they have recorded it not quite so closely as is usual (especially in PI recordings), and so at first it seems strange, but after a few minutes one gets used to it and it really sounds good that way. The playing is outstanding, and there is no rush to get it done, no skipped repeats, great sonority in the cello especially, also the viola. I'm really liking this, no doubt! :)

8)

PS - That isn't a bad scan of the cover, this disk has the tiniest writing I've ever seen on a CD. It is the Skálholt Quartet from Iceland, FYI. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on November 17, 2014, 11:07:22 PM

I read a glowing review of this from a reviewer I really like, but much of his praise was for the technical side of the recording--in other words, the playing is only very good, but the quality of the recorded sound is, supposedly, stellar. I'm very curious to hear what it sounds like. Is anyone here familiar with it?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 18, 2014, 04:31:19 AM

Quote from: Baklavaboy on November 17, 2014, 11:07:22 PM
I read a glowing review of this from a reviewer I really like, but much of his praise was for the technical side of the recording--in other words, the playing is only very good, but the quality of the recorded sound is, supposedly, stellar. I'm very curious to hear what it sounds like. Is anyone here familiar with it?

Of which? The one I just mentioned is really very good, but maybe you meant another and the picture escaped? :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on November 18, 2014, 04:45:29 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 18, 2014, 04:31:19 AM

Of which? The one I just mentioned is really very good, but maybe you meant another and the picture escaped? :D

8)

:-[ :-[ :-[and so it did. I don't know how I managed that, as I did look it up and all. Anyway, here it is, from the Fry Street Quartet

[asin]B000FSMOGU[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 22, 2014, 06:58:52 AM

1781 was another highly significant year for Haydn. Any year which includes the Opus 33 quartets as part of its works list has got to be good! I gathered a few factoids together and bundled it up with my usual mix of opinion and all is available for you right here:

It's alive! (The entrepreneur, that is) (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/11/1781-the-year.html)

Check it out!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 27, 2014, 08:31:52 AM

Curious if anyone here has actually listened to Horn Concerto #2 and have an opinion about it.

[asin]B0040Y7F14[/asin]

Of course, I have one, but I hope to hear yours!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on November 28, 2014, 01:42:38 AM

symphony #93

Quote from: Daverz on July 20, 2014, 08:02:30 PM
"The Flatulent"

I actually heard a moderator on the German Radio claim that the slow movement had been explicitly called "der Satz mit dem Furz" (The movement with the fart). A Victorian/Edwardian gentleman like Tovey calls it "the Great Bassoon Joke" or "Chaucerian humour"

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 28, 2014, 05:42:53 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 27, 2014, 08:31:52 AM
Curious if anyone here has actually listened to Horn Concerto #2 and have an opinion about it.

It doesn't sound like Haydn to me. Can't really explain why though. The liner notes to the Fey recording say it is harmonically less adventurous (limited harmonic spectrum). Maybe that's what I'm hearing, or not hearing. The minor key Adagio is unusual for Haydn too (in a concerto). I love the work though (no matter who composed it).

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 28, 2014, 06:00:13 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on November 28, 2014, 01:42:38 AM
symphony #93
I actually heard a moderator on the German Radio claim that the slow movement had been explicitly called "der Satz mit dem Furz" (The movement with the fart). A Victorian/Edwardian gentleman like Tovey calls it "the Great Bassoon Joke" or "Chaucerian humour"

Perhaps under Tovey's influence, I also call it the Great Bassoon Joke, but I actually think of it as 'that enviable bassoon fart'... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 28, 2014, 06:05:16 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 28, 2014, 05:42:53 AM
It doesn't sound like Haydn to me. Can't really explain why though. The liner notes to the Fey recording say it is harmonically less adventurous (limited harmonic spectrum). Maybe that's what I'm hearing, or not hearing. The minor key Adagio is unusual for Haydn too (in a concerto). I love the work though (no matter who composed it).

Sarge

Thanks for your reply, Sarge. It is a work which I have never even seen mentioned in the Forum or by anyone who would discuss it.

Let me propose a what-if:

What if it was not actually composed in 1781, when it showed up in Breitkopf's catalog. What is it was composed in 1761 instead, and just never showed up for 20 years, as concertos tend to do when the owner wants to hang on to it. That would make it actually horn concerto #1 and handle the "it is harmonically less adventurous (limited harmonic spectrum)" argument rather neatly, I would think... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on November 28, 2014, 07:25:04 AM

I listened to the Horn Concerto No. 2, performed by Fey and his people, and first of all I need to say that that Wilhelm Bruns is quite exceptional as horn player. The whole thing is delightfully played.

Regarding the authorship, I feel the same as Sarge: this doesn't sound very Haydn, at least the first two movements and particularly the Adagio.

I mean it's an excellent work, but a little bit self-complacent, more Vienna than Esterházy (even considering the jokes). Anyway, the composition of a mature composer. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 28, 2014, 07:33:53 AM

Quote from: Gordo on November 28, 2014, 07:25:04 AM
I listened to the Horn Concerto No. 2, performed by Fey and his people, and first of all I need to say that that Wilhelm Bruns is quite exceptional as horn player. The whole thing is delightfully played.

Regarding the authorship, I feel the same as Sarge: this doesn't sound very Haydn, at least the first two movements and particularly the Adagio.

I mean it's an excellent work, but a little bit self-complacent, more Vienna than Esterházy (even considering the jokes). Anyway, the composition of a mature composer. :)

Thanks, Gordo. You've given me something else to think about, and you know, I never have enough. :) That disk was supposed to be in my mailbox a week and a half ago and still hasn't arrived, so I am using Marriner/Tuckwell, which is fine, but I sure miss the sound of a natural horn!

I have a great pile of literature on this work which I am dutifully plowing through; so far I have found the professionals to be singularly unimaginative. You and Sarge are far more helpful 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on November 28, 2014, 07:41:32 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 28, 2014, 07:33:53 AM
... I am using Marriner/Tuckwell, which is fine, but I sure miss the sound of a natural horn!

It's wonderful, indeed, and sumptuously recorded. BTW, that Bruns should be protected like an animal in danger of extinction. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 28, 2014, 09:12:17 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 28, 2014, 06:05:16 AM
What if it was not actually composed in 1781, when it showed up in Breitkopf's catalog. What is it was composed in 1761 instead, and just never showed up for 20 years, as concertos tend to do when the owner wants to hang on to it. That would make it actually horn concerto #1 and handle the "it is harmonically less adventurous (limited harmonic spectrum)" argument rather neatly, I would think... :-\

That could work for me. It does sound like a piece from the early Classical era. Is that your theory or is there literature on the subject?

Quote from: Gordo on November 28, 2014, 07:25:04 AM
I listened to the Horn Concerto No. 2, performed by Fey and his people, and first of all I need to say that that Wilhelm Bruns is quite exceptional as horn player. The whole thing is delightfully played.

It's one of my favorite Fey discs. Here he reins in his sometimes excessive exuberance and conducts all three works genially. I think Gurn will like it despite it being a hybrid band ;) And yes, Bruns is a great talent.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 28, 2014, 09:49:49 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 28, 2014, 09:12:17 AM
That could work for me. It does sound like a piece from the early Classical era. Is that your theory or is there literature on subject?

It's one of my favorite Fey discs. Here he reins in his sometimes excessive exuberance and conducts all three works genially. I think Gurn will like it despite it being a hybrid band ;) And yes, Bruns is a great talent.

Sarge

Well, I hate to jump out there naked, so to speak, but I am writing about this right now, probably publishing later today or early tomorrow. There is certainly literature, but I can say it is uncertain in its conclusions. It is MY belief that it is an early J. Haydn work though, certainly not a 1781 J. Haydn work. No one else has said that.

I'll have more info in my next essay. I hate to Newman you like that, but I don't like to eat desert before the meal... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 28, 2014, 11:22:12 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 28, 2014, 09:49:49 AM

I'll have more info in my next essay. I hate to Newman you like that, but I don't like to eat desert before the meal... :D

8)

I understand, and I would not want you to dilute your thunder. Looking forward, then, to your next blog entry.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 28, 2014, 05:21:44 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 28, 2014, 11:22:12 AM
I understand, and I would not want you to dilute your thunder. Looking forward, then, to your next blog entry.

Sarge

Thanks, Sarge; well, maybe a little thunder. This one was an absolute pig to research, but I hope the result was worth the effort. I've been wanting to address the authenticity thing for a long time, and there will probably not be another opportunity as time moves on. I hope you all will enjoy the result:

La chasse'ing the concerto (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/11/1781-the-music-part-1-.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on November 29, 2014, 07:22:14 AM

I have a technical question: I have been browsing through this thread (at page 61 now...) and wonder if it makes sense to reply to/comment on some messages that are several years old.
Or have there been new threads opened for, e.g. the string quartets and recordings thereof?
at 459 pages unwieldy does not seem an exaggeration...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 29, 2014, 07:29:06 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on November 29, 2014, 07:22:14 AM
I have a technical question: I have been browsing through this thread (at page 61 now...) and wonder if it makes sense to reply to/comment on some messages that are several years old.
Or have there been new threads opened for, e.g. the string quartets and recordings thereof?
at 459 pages unwieldy does not seem an exaggeration...

Well, unless it is a reply to a member who is now a guest, I think everyone who has ever been an active participant here would still be delighted to discuss those items. I have brought up old topics and had conversations restart right from that point like they never stopped! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on November 30, 2014, 09:36:11 AM

So I finally, after many years, got the Music for Prince Esterhazy and the King of Naples (the set on BIS). I haven't gotten any new Haydn in 2-3 years (with pieces new to me anyway) and how exciting these performances are. Why I waited so long, when I have the Huss Overture discs (and thus know just how good they are), is beyond me. Great stuff.
[asin]B001PBCZL0[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 30, 2014, 10:15:29 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on November 30, 2014, 09:36:11 AM
So I finally, after many years, got the Music for Prince Esterhazy and the King of Naples (the set on BIS). I haven't gotten any new Haydn in 2-3 years (with pieces new to me anyway) and how exciting these performances are. Why I waited so long, when I have the Huss Overture discs (and thus know just how good they are), is beyond me. Great stuff.
[asin]B001PBCZL0[/asin]

That's great, Neal. You're right, that is an excellent box; for me, it is on the 'indispensable' list. You have the overtures, I had the original Koch/Swann Scherzandi disk for an intro. Nice to know how good they are going in! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 01, 2014, 05:37:10 PM

Some talk about string quartets lately, fortuitously I just arrived at one of the more interesting opera, 1781's Op 33. Here are some of the things I discovered. Love to discuss, if you have a mind to. :)

Written in a new and special way (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/12/1781-the-music-part-2-.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 07, 2014, 08:28:10 AM

One hardly hears about art song until Schubert's Erlkönig comes along, but there was certainly plenty of it around, even as early as the late 1770's. Haydn had a go at it, and some very nice results ensued. I take a look and listen this week, join me!

C'mon, sing, it's good for you! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/12/1781-the-music-part-3-.html)

Thanks,
Gurn 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on December 07, 2014, 12:38:08 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 29, 2014, 07:29:06 AM
Well, unless it is a reply to a member who is now a guest, I think everyone who has ever been an active participant here would still be delighted to discuss those items. I have brought up old topics and had conversations restart right from that point like they never stopped! :)

The probable unbeatable fun fact is already in, that you were an accomplished Sauschneider!

There are frequent links by Jens Laursen to an older blog? of his that does not longer exist (at least not reachable). Is this material, e.g. comparisons between several recordings of (some of) the string quartets available somewhere else?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 07, 2014, 12:47:47 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on December 07, 2014, 12:38:08 PM
The probable unbeatable fun fact is already in, that you were an accomplished Sauschneider!

There are frequent links by Jens Laursen to an older blog? of his that does not longer exist (at least not reachable). Is this material, e.g. comparisons between several recordings of (some of) the string quartets available somewhere else?

His WETA blog was taken offline. Sad. I managed to save his Mahler survey but didn't get the Haydn.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Moonfish on December 07, 2014, 01:03:39 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 07, 2014, 12:47:47 PM
His WETA blog was taken offline. Sad. I managed to save his Mahler survey but didn't get the Haydn.

Sarge

That is very sad. :'(
It seems like there is plenty of storage space on modern servers so why remove it? Such a great resource!
At least we have Dugan's survey (http://www.musicweb-international.com/Mahler/index.html). Perhaps I should copy it before it gets deleted....?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on December 07, 2014, 01:13:12 PM

Mahler surveys are a dime a dozen... but it's sad to see that Tony Duggan has passed away at a comparably early age. I must have missed that fact (I've looked several times at those survey, but the last time was probably a more than a couple of years ago).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 07, 2014, 01:47:31 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on December 07, 2014, 12:38:08 PM
The probable unbeatable fun fact is already in, that you were an accomplished Sauschneider!

There are frequent links by Jens Laursen to an older blog? of his that does not longer exist (at least not reachable). Is this material, e.g. comparisons between several recordings of (some of) the string quartets available somewhere else?

:D Ha, that is so! I can't remember writing about that, but it's too true. Retired now, of course...

Acht Sauschneider müassn sein, müassn sein, wenns an Saubärn wulln schneidn.
Zwoa vorn und zwoa hintn,
zwoa holtn, uana bintn
und uana schneidt drein, schneidt drein,
iahna achti müassn sein.

I'm glad you asked about Jens' blog, since the answers were new to me, too. More's the pity, he is a very accomplished writer. As Moon says, it's a waste to remove it. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on December 07, 2014, 01:56:47 PM

With this song text I realized for the first time that "Saubär" is really a word for boar, probably still used in Austria or other southern regions of the German-speaking zone. I knew the word for name-calling but had somehow assumed that it was a funny combination of two animals. The standard German for a male pig is "Eber". (In my mothers Hessian dialect Mr and Mrs Pig were Watz and Wutz which sounds even more funny than Saubär.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 07, 2014, 02:11:04 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on December 07, 2014, 01:56:47 PM
With this song text I realized for the first time that "Saubär" is really a word for boar, probably still used in Austria or other southern regions of the German-speaking zone. I knew the word for name-calling but had somehow assumed that it was a funny combination of two animals. The standard German for a male pig is "Eber". (In my mothers Hessian dialect Mr and Mrs Pig were Watz and Wutz which sounds even more funny than Saubär.)

I noticed this was all in 'Austrian' instead of German, which made it particularly cool from my POV. My days as a pig farmer preceded those as a Haydnist, so it was a special pleasure when I discovered this Capriccio which Haydn wrote just for me. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on December 13, 2014, 10:32:17 AM

Particularly, for those still not aware of this re-release, currently offered at EUR 29 on jpc.de:

Quote from: Gordo on December 12, 2014, 07:11:54 PM
Frans Brüggen: Haydn [Sturm und Drang Symphonies - Paris Symphonies - London Symphonies]

(https://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0028948022823.jpg)

CD1-5
Orchestra of the Age of the Enlightenment

I have listened to the five disks of the "Sturm und Drang" symphonies with enormous pleasure.

Conducted by Brüggen with iron fist, these interpretations are more classically oriented than guided by "Storm and Stress" elements.

Anyway, and quite curiously, the music gains a good amount of tension because of the contrast between the music itself (apparently) calling for a more freewheeling interpretation and the great amount of dedication that Brüggen invests in delivering a more classical and detailed approach.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on December 13, 2014, 10:39:02 AM

Quote from: Gordo on December 13, 2014, 10:32:17 AM
Particularly, for those still not aware of this re-release, currently offered at EUR 29 on jpc.de:

Yes, that is the one I ordered, complete with 20% coupon.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 13, 2014, 11:14:18 AM

Quote from: Gordo on December 13, 2014, 10:32:17 AM
Particularly, for those still not aware of this re-release, currently offered at EUR 29 on jpc.de:

I repeat also: anyone who likes Haydn, who hasn't these disks, and doesn't take advantage of this spectacular deal is making an enormous error. :)

Commenting on the 'comment' you quoted, Gordo, I would say this perhaps harsh assessment of Brüggen's style is accurate for virtually all of his works which I have heard. He holds the reins quite tightly, but the result is nearly always excellent. I think this is reflective of the great variety of authentic styles which are available within the PI realm. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on December 13, 2014, 11:46:53 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 13, 2014, 11:14:18 AM
I repeat also: anyone who likes Haydn, who hasn't these disks, and doesn't take advantage of this spectacular deal is making an enormous error. :)

Commenting on the 'comment' you quoted, Gordo, I would say this perhaps harsh assessment of Brüggen's style is accurate for virtually all of his works which I have heard. He holds the reins quite tightly, but the result is nearly always excellent. I think this is reflective of the great variety of authentic styles which are available within the PI realm. :)

8)

PI maybe, but I'm not sure that he claims, at this stage in his career, to be playing authentically. For what it's worth I like his London Symphonies much much more than his other Haydn recordings.

To me, he makes the London Symphonies sound more like Beethoven than others do.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 13, 2014, 11:55:48 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on December 13, 2014, 11:46:53 AM
PI maybe, but I'm not sure that he claims, at this stage in his career, to be playing authentically. For what it's worth I like his London Symphonies much much more than his other Haydn recordings.

To me, he makes the London Symphonies sound more like Beethoven than others do.

That's fine.

What I'm talking about is only tangentially related to Brüggen specifically, it has to do with the large variety of stylistic traits which are encompassed within authentic playing. Every city and town band in the 18th century sounded particular only to itself, not like the one in the next town. Which is why I am amused by the concept of a "HIP style"; it is a wide-open field. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Cosi bel do on December 13, 2014, 12:47:51 PM

The issue with Brüggen is that he was so careful about how much work he put into his interpretations that he recorded many of these symphonies one by one (sometimes live, sometimes in studio) and that led to great recordings, but then he had to finish cycles and he recorded sometimes 3 or 4 symphonies in a single session and the result is not as good, in terms of interpretative depth and (also) of engineering. So you might love a symphony, for instance, say, his wonderful acount of no. 98, and then you won't understand what happened with no. 95... But overall very few of these readings are less than excellent.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on December 13, 2014, 01:04:27 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 13, 2014, 11:14:18 AM
Commenting on the 'comment' you quoted, Gordo, I would say this perhaps harsh assessment of Brüggen's style is accurate for virtually all of his works which I have heard. He holds the reins quite tightly, but the result is nearly always excellent. I think this is reflective of the great variety of authentic styles which are available within the PI realm. :)

8)

Yes, I agree, but I'd add that the "Sturm und Drang" symphonies require an extra effort to do it because of a sort of interpretative consensus around them.

Not to mention, as you have pointed out before, that to establish a relation between Haydn and the (basically literary) "Sturm und Drang" movement involves some difficulties. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 13, 2014, 02:06:09 PM

Quote from: Discobolus on December 13, 2014, 12:47:51 PM
The issue with Brüggen is that he was so careful about how much work he put into his interpretations that he recorded many of these symphonies one by one (sometimes live, sometimes in studio) and that led to great recordings, but then he had to finish cycles and he recorded sometimes 3 or 4 symphonies in a single session and the result is not as good, in terms of interpretative depth and (also) of engineering. So you might love a symphony, for instance, say, his wonderful account of no. 98, and then you won't understand what happened with no. 95... But overall very few of these readings are less than excellent.

Interesting background, thanks for that. I think another aspect of the variety here has to do with use of different bands. Too much emphasis can be placed on a conductor and less so on the players, which I think this balance needs to be looked at.

Another Haydnish example of this same phenomenon is the Paris Symphonies conducted by Sigiswald Kuijken. I have read any number of comments which say 'well, Kuijken sounds different (and not so well) in the Paris works as in the London and in-between symphonies. Well yes, he isn't even playing an instrument! The Paris are played by OAE and the others by La Petite Bande!

And with Brüggen, we also have OAE, and then Orchestra of the Eighteenth Century. So even without the time constraints, which I am sure have an effect as you describe, the basic issue of being an entirely different orchestra cannot be discounted! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 13, 2014, 02:15:25 PM

Quote from: Gordo on December 13, 2014, 01:04:27 PM
Yes, I agree, but I'd add that the "Sturm und Drang" symphonies require an extra effort to do it because of a sort of interpretative consensus around them.

Not to mention, as you have pointed out before, that to establish a relation between Haydn and the (basically literary) "Sturm und Drang" movement involves some difficulties. :)

Yes, you are correct about the consensus of how should sound the S&D works. My own opinion is that just because a consensus has been reached, it doesn't mean it is correct! We all like the thrilling sound brought out by various bands over the years, but there is no saying Haydn would have liked it or not, he might be surprised as hell! :D

Difficulties. Yes. Only today, I was reading an essay concerning the Greiner salon in Vienna, doing some research for tomorrow's essay. And the author goes on for a few paragraphs about how there are documented readings of Sorrows of Young Werther and other S&D classics, and Haydn was an attendee at this salon, thus the dramatic description by Landon of Haydn's music at this time must be in sequitur. However, I have discovered to my own satisfaction that time is a very linear sort of function, and the works Landon speaks of were composed between 1767 and 1772, while the readings of S&D works described took place no earlier than 1773, and so putative influence is here is dubious at best.

Unless, of course, we would like to attribute the German literary S&D to Haydn's music instead of the reverse... :D :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on December 13, 2014, 02:21:03 PM

BTW, IMO "Orchestra of the Age of the Enlightenment" is the best name ever for a period instrument band devoted to Baroque and Classical composers. Well, maybe "Orchestre de l'âge des lumières" would be better; but I don't even know if the Google translator is right. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 13, 2014, 02:23:31 PM

Quote from: Gordo on December 13, 2014, 02:21:03 PM
BTW, IMO "Orchestra of the Age of the Enlightenment" is the best name ever for a period instrument band devoted to Baroque and Classical composers. Well, maybe "Orchestre de l'âge des lumières" would be better; but I don't even know if the Google translator is right. ;D

I agree, it is perfect. You're right though, it should be French, however they would have said it in 1770. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Cosi bel do on December 13, 2014, 02:31:07 PM

Quote from: Gordo on December 13, 2014, 02:21:03 PM
BTW, IMO "Orchestra of the Age of the Enlightenment" is the best name ever for a period instrument band devoted to Baroque and Classical composers. Well, maybe "Orchestre de l'âge des lumières" would be better; but I don't even know if the Google translator is right. ;D

We speak about the "siècle des Lumières" more than "âge" though. Or even just "Les Lumières".

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on December 13, 2014, 02:35:01 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 13, 2014, 02:15:25 PM
Difficulties. Yes. Only today, I was reading an essay concerning the Greiner salon in Vienna, doing some research for tomorrow's essay. And the author goes on for a few paragraphs about how there are documented readings of Sorrows of Young Werther and other S&D classics, and Haydn was an attendee at this salon, thus the dramatic description by Landon of Haydn's music at this time must be in sequitur. However, I have discovered to my own satisfaction that time is a very linear sort of function, and the works Landon speaks of were composed between 1767 and 1772, while the readings of S&D works described took place no earlier than 1773, and so putative influence is here is dubious at best.

Yes! I recall I was aware of this fact about two years ago, when you expressed some similar idea talking about this same topic. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on December 13, 2014, 02:38:51 PM

Quote from: Discobolus on December 13, 2014, 02:31:07 PM
We speak about the "siècle des Lumières" more than "âge" though. Or even just "Les Lumières".

Google isn't perfect then! It's crystal clear now. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Cosi bel do on December 13, 2014, 02:50:09 PM

The French are very attached to clear structures and periods, for instance centuries. After the Renaissance 16th, the 17th is labeled "Grand Siècle", then the 18th "Siècle des Lumières"... All that doesn't account for much in the minds of current historians of course.

"Orchestre des Lumières" would be a beautiful name for an ensemble, by the way.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on December 13, 2014, 03:18:25 PM

Quote from: Discobolus on December 13, 2014, 02:50:09 PM
The French are very attached to clear structures and periods, for instance centuries. After the Renaissance 16th, the 17th is labeled "Grand Siècle", then the 18th "Siècle des Lumières"... All that doesn't account for much in the minds of current historians of course.

"Orchestre des Lumières" would be a beautiful name for an ensemble, by the way.

Interesting: undoubtedly, those two centuries marked the great French power, preceded by Spain (16th Century) and followed by England (19th Century), and then, well, after some confusion, by our good American friends. Otherwise, we wouldn't be writing in English now. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 13, 2014, 04:02:30 PM

Quote from: Gordo on December 13, 2014, 02:35:01 PM
Yes! I recall I was aware of this fact about two years ago, when you expressed some similar idea talking about this same topic. :)

The more things change, the more they remain the same, see? :) Although this essay was not old, it was new. All part of the process of conforming facts to ideas rather than the opposite. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on December 13, 2014, 04:09:01 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 13, 2014, 02:15:25 PM
Yes, you are correct about the consensus of how should sound the S&D works. My own opinion is that just because a consensus has been reached, it doesn't mean it is correct! We all like the thrilling sound brought out by various bands over the years, but there is no saying Haydn would have liked it or not, he might be surprised as hell! :D

Difficulties. Yes. Only today, I was reading an essay concerning the Greiner salon in Vienna, doing some research for tomorrow's essay. And the author goes on for a few paragraphs about how there are documented readings of Sorrows of Young Werther and other S&D classics, and Haydn was an attendee at this salon, thus the dramatic description by Landon of Haydn's music at this time must be in sequitur. However, I have discovered to my own satisfaction that time is a very linear sort of function, and the works Landon speaks of were composed between 1767 and 1772, while the readings of S&D works described took place no earlier than 1773, and so putative influence is here is dubious at best.

Unless, of course, we would like to attribute the German literary S&D to Haydn's music instead of the reverse... :D :D

8)

Alternate hypothesis. Haydn was like Merlin in TH White. He grew younger.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on December 13, 2014, 04:30:42 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 13, 2014, 04:02:30 PM
The more things change, the more they remain the same, see? :) Although this essay was not old, it was new. All part of the process of conforming facts to ideas rather than the opposite. :-\

8)

I recall the quake inside me, when being a young boy, I did read in Bertrand Russell that "truth" is merely a logical quality of propositions. Only the propositions are true or false; the facts are not true or false, just exist or don't exist. Ergo, in terms of our everyday language, Truth is just a certain kind of relation among words. It was a revealing discovery for a young. After this, to study Law seemed a natural decision! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 13, 2014, 04:35:44 PM

Quote from: Gordo on December 13, 2014, 04:30:42 PM
I recall the quake inside me, when being a young boy, I did read in Bertrand Russell that "truth" is merely a logical quality of propositions. Only the propositions are true or false; the facts are not true or false, just exist o don't exist. Ergo, in terms of our everyday language, Truth is just a certain kind of relation among words. It was a revealing discovery for a young. After this, to study Law seemed a natural decision! :D

As Stephen Colbert calls it, the quality of truthiness. Yes, I can see the natural way this philosophy and this career would entwine. And 'entwine' was the only word to use there, since what is done with the truth after discovery is often an exercise in twining! 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on December 13, 2014, 04:51:19 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 13, 2014, 04:35:44 PM
As Stephen Colbert calls it, the quality of truthiness. Yes, I can see the natural way this philosophy and this career would entwine. And 'entwine' was the only word to use there, since what is done with the truth after discovery is often an exercise in twining! 0:)

8)

A last digression. I have always had this idea: I think USA is, after Rome, the world potency that has been more deeply marked by its notion of Law. Obviously, this applies just to the internal order because in foreign affairs the American definition has been a bit different. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 13, 2014, 04:54:30 PM

Quote from: Gordo on December 13, 2014, 04:51:19 PM
A last digression. I have always had this idea: I think USA is, after Rome, the world potency that has been more deeply marked by its notion of Law. Obviously, this applies just to the internal order because in foreign affairs the American definition has been a bit different. :)

Amen to that! Although the Romans showed that applying their Lex Romana universally resulted in nearly the same result as the USA failing to apply ours that way. Just a thought... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on December 13, 2014, 10:47:26 PM

Quote from: Gordo on December 12, 2014, 07:11:54 PM
Frans Brüggen: Haydn [Sturm und Drang Symphonies - Paris Symphonies - London Symphonies]

(https://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0028948022823.jpg)

CD1-5
Orchestra of the Age of the Enlightenment

I have listened to the five disks of the "Sturm und Drang" symphonies with enormous pleasure.

Conducted by Brüggen with iron fist, these interpretations are more classically oriented than guided by "Storm and Stress" elements.

Anyway, and quite curiously, the music gains a good amount of tension because of the contrast between the music itself (apparently) calling for a more freewheeling interpretation and the great amount of dedication that Brüggen invests in delivering a more classical and detailed approach.

:)

Are you taking the mick?

It's like you're saying that the interesting thing about the performances is that Brüggen misses the point of the music. Otherwise where does the tension come from? I thought Brüggen was well boring in most of those symphonies by the way, apart from the Londons, so I haven't given them much attention.

Give me an example and I'll listen again though.

I bet you'd love Gould's Chopin for similar reasons.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on December 13, 2014, 11:02:58 PM

Quote from: Discobolus on December 13, 2014, 12:47:51 PM
The issue with Brüggen is that he was so careful about how much work he put into his interpretations that he recorded many of these symphonies one by one (sometimes live, sometimes in studio) and that led to great recordings, but then he had to finish cycles and he recorded sometimes 3 or 4 symphonies in a single session and the result is not as good, in terms of interpretative depth and (also) of engineering. So you might love a symphony, for instance, say, his wonderful acount of no. 98, and then you won't understand what happened with no. 95... But overall very few of these readings are less than excellent.

How do you know? Which other ones did he cram into the session when he recorded 95? (I don't have the booklet for the recordings by the way, in case the session details are there.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on December 13, 2014, 11:54:55 PM

truth is not a relation between words (at least not according to Russell), but between propositions (which are more than mere words, rather the common content expressed by both "snow is white", "neige est blanc" and "Schnee ist weiß" etc.) and facts (that snow is actually white).
In a 18th century internet (and probably most of the 19th) we would be writing French, in a 17th century Latin.

Whatever, IIRC all of Brüggen's London symphonies are live recordings. Maybe spliced together from several concerts, but crammed recording sessions were not a factor here. It may be different with the Sturm & Drang set.
In any case the set would be worth EUR 30 only for the London set, I think

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Cosi bel do on December 14, 2014, 03:11:59 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on December 13, 2014, 11:02:58 PM
How do you know? Which other ones did he cram into the session when he recorded 95? (I don't have the booklet for the recordings by the way, in case the session details are there.)

Well, my booklet is not precise with these details. But I know dates and locations of these recordings are very remote, and was able to explain some of these differencies in the result when I saw these details on individual CDs, and it explained a lot. I then cited two examples of an excellent and a very less satisfying reading, but I didn't really check the session details.
Now Jo says all of them are live, but I was quite sure some of the London at least were studios. But my memory might betray me.
Turns out 95 and 98 were apparently recorded the same year, 1992. But where, when precisely ? Anyway, comparing the result is interesting. In 95, the sound is very reverberated, cold, fuzzy, the worst movement being the menuetto that lacks rythmic precision and where the cello solo in the trio is too far away and doesn't sound very clean. Listening to it again, one could think engineering is responsible for most of the problems here. Then 98 has a comparable sound, but this time it doesn't impede Brüggen's band to be precise articulated, with contrasts, tension. Comparing directly the two Minuets is spectacular, in 98 everything is still smooth, elegant, but you can hear all the detail, and the trio is a lot more charming and subtle. So not everything is the fault of microphones in 95 in the end...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on December 14, 2014, 03:34:30 AM

My booklet is not so explicit either, but it says that 82-87 and 90-104 were recorded live (the rest apparently not) and it claims October 92 for 98 and May 93 for 95 and 96. It seems the same hall (Vredenburg, Utrecht), though I wouldn't bet on that as the info is quite condensed.

In any case, I think that live recordings (maybe spliced together) are a very plausible cause for rather uneven sonics and other features. So your impression, Discobolus, is very compatible with live recordings.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 14, 2014, 04:03:13 AM

I have the original Philips Sturm und Drang set:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/jan11/haydnsturmbr_ggen.jpg)

Recordings at Blackheath Concert Halls, London (but no mention if these were live before an audience):

9/94 39, 41, 49
10/95 35, 44, 46, 51
1/96 38, 47, 48
2/96 43, 50, 65
12/96 26, 58, 59
3/97 42, 45, 52

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on December 14, 2014, 04:55:58 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on December 13, 2014, 10:47:26 PM
Are you taking the mick?

It's like you're saying that the interesting thing about the performances is that Brüggen misses the point of the music. Otherwise where does the tension come from? I thought Brüggen was well boring in most of those symphonies by the way, apart from the Londons, so I haven't given them much attention.

Give me an example and I'll listen again though.

I bet you'd love Gould's Chopin for similar reasons.

No, I simply said that Brüggen conducts this music as if it were (as it is!) part of the road towards the construction of the Classical style, with the inner logic and self-control that it implies, and not as if it were an exercise of proto-Romanticism.

Believe it or not, I did write what I wrote precisely as a sort of warning to people searching for different things that those provided by Brüggen's performances.

And for the record: IMO, Brüggen is right, both Baroque and Classical style (with clear differences, of course) essentially talk about order in the world, about things put in the right place and not about the uncomfortable position of the artist in the world. Bach and Haydn (for the case, they work out as "representative men") never considered themselves as "misunderstood geniuses". No doubt they had a clear insight of their personal value and a lot of problems, but their entire life had a common denominator and goal: how to accomplish the requirements of their professional duties into a well regulated world (well, Haydn's last years were a bit different, I know).

You don't like this approach? No surprise because this vision is almost the contrary of presenting Haydn as a sort of John the Baptist, merely preparing the arriving of Beethoven and all that stuff of the "tormented artist" fighting against the world that doesn't understand him.

Therefore, I'm not saying (at all) that Brüggen is doing things against the directions of Haydn, but simply that Brüggen had a solid insight of the complete landscape and he didn't buy the proto-Romantic ticket. And this is powerful because the ~~last quarter~~ the second half of the 18th Century had, of course (and is well documented), its own inner tensions, sorrows and pains to tell, using its own language.

About Chopin? Gould? Nah (almost because of the same reasons aforementioned)... call me mainstream, but I prefer people like Arrau and Rubinstein, or even Pollini or Ashkenazy.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on December 14, 2014, 05:07:38 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on December 13, 2014, 11:54:55 PM
truth is not a relation between words (at least not according to Russell), but between propositions (which are more than mere words, rather the common content expressed by both "snow is white", "neige est blanc" and "Schnee ist weiß" etc.) and facts (that snow is actually white).

Exactly what I said if you read my words. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on December 14, 2014, 06:01:31 AM

Quote from: Gordo on December 14, 2014, 04:55:58 AM
No, I simply said that Brüggen conducts this music as if it were (as it is!) part of the road towards the construction of the Classical style, with the inner logic and self-control that it implies, and not as if it were an exercise of proto-Romanticism.

Believe it or not, I did write what I wrote precisely as a sort of warning to people searching for different things that those provided by Brüggen's performances.

And for the record: IMO, Brüggen is right, both Baroque and Classical style (with clear differences, of course) essentially talk about order in the world, about things put in the right place and not about the uncomfortable position of the artist in the world. Bach and Haydn (for the case, they work out as "representative men") never considered themselves as "misunderstood geniuses". No doubt they had a clear insight of their personal value and a lot of problems, but their entire life had a common denominator and goal: how to accomplish the requirements of their professional duties into a well regulated world (well, Haydn's last years were a bit different, I know).

You don't like this approach? No surprise because this vision is almost the contrary of presenting Haydn as a sort of John the Baptist, merely preparing the arriving of Beethoven and all that stuff of the "tormented artist" fighting against the world that doesn't understand him.

Therefore, I'm not saying (at all) that Brüggen is doing things against the directions of Haydn, but simply that Brüggen had a solid insight of the complete landscape and he didn't buy the proto-Romantic ticket. And this is powerful because the ~~last quarter~~ the second half of the 18th Century had, of course (and is well documented), its own inner tensions, sorrows and pains to tell, using its own language.

About Chopin? Gould? Nah (almost because of the same reasons aforementioned)... call me mainstream, but I prefer people like Arrau and Rubinstein, or even Pollini or Ashkenazy.

:)

What's odd though is that sometimes -- like in 86 -- he's so much more intense. I think -- see whether you agree -- I'm never really sure I understand these style ideas -- romantic, classical etc.

Sometimes Mozart's music seems quite uncomfortable in some performances (PC 24, 20; K310; K563). I don't know enough about the classical period to comment about how stylish (to use premont's wonderful word)Bezuidenhout is. The view that baroque style is really about order -- is that disputed by academics? It wouldn't be hard to find examples of performances which were't particularly stable, which were more abut unresolved tensions in counterpoint etc. But how stylish they are I wouldn't like to say.

Even Gould didn't like Gould in Chopin. He didn't want to have the recording released but his estate defied his wishes. I too quite like Arrau in the 3rd sonata -- best of all in the live one on youtube.

Just standing back a little, I've seen people say that they are interested in HIP becauae HIP performances have proved the most satisfying. At least I've heard them say that hen talking about Bach. If you're right about Haydn and Bruggen, then the HIP way isn't the best way for me today in Haydn -- I would say.

I hope you're wrong about Haydn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on December 14, 2014, 06:32:37 AM

Isn't there a person on the forum with a quote that baroque means after all "too much"? Is baroque music about reflecting a pre-established harmony of the universe or rather about fancy and emotions running wild? I think it is always too simplistic to use certain buzzwords for whole stylistic epochs (and of course those epochs are artefacts of vulgar historiography). The Baroque lasted almost 150 years and has very different kinds of music. So has the 19th century and it is about as misleading to claim that "romantic" composers usually saw themselves as misunderstood geniuses as it would be to reduce Haydn to a servile fulfiller of his prince's wishes.

Haydn was about 50 years active as a composer and it's almost 35 from the "morning, noon, evening" to the 2nd London set. Clearly his late works were seen as powerful, sublime and dramatic in their time. This is obvious from the reviews of the London premieres. But it is also true that 20 years later for Hoffmann Haydn was mostly about Arcadian children playing in green pastures and not about the ineffable realm of spirits one would experience when listening to Beethoven.

So another 200 years later the musician playing or directing Haydn cannot deny what happened since then. But neither should he forget that Haydn's music was the Avantgarde of its day.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 14, 2014, 06:45:48 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on December 14, 2014, 06:32:37 AM
Isn't there a person on the forum with a quote that baroque means after all "too much"? Is baroque music about reflecting a pre-established harmony of the universe or rather about fancy and emotions running wild? I think it is always too simplistic to use certain buzzwords for whole stylistic epochs (and of course those epochs are artifacts of vulgar historiography). The Baroque lasted almost 150 years and has very different kinds of music. So has the 19th century and it is about as misleading to claim that "romantic" composers usually saw themselves as misunderstood geniuses as it would be to reduce Haydn to a servile fulfiller of his prince's wishes.

Haydn was about 50 years active as a composer and it's almost 35 from the "morning, noon, evening" to the 2nd London set. Clearly his late works were seen as powerful, sublime and dramatic in their time. This is obvious from the reviews of the London premieres. But it is also true that 20 years later for Hoffmann Haydn was mostly about Arcadian children playing in green pastures and not about the ineffable realm of spirits one would experience when listening to Beethoven.

So another 200 years later the musician playing or directing Haydn cannot deny what happened since then. But neither should he forget that Haydn's music was the Avant-garde of its day.

I was wondering if anyone would say that about the Baroque. Indeed, it meant, as we would say today, over the top! I personally have, now and always, deplored putting labels on music for just the reasons you cite. The simplistic answers which can be derived after labeling make it difficult to remove them though, So we are stuck. Do you think we can stop using Sturm und Drang for a while, at least until after I die, perhaps? Après moi le déluge...

It is an unfortunate fact of life (that 'time's arrow thing again) that we can't un-hear the music we have heard, which arose and was realized since Haydn's death. Perhaps if we could do so, then the sorts of realizations which don't satisfy our post-Romantic expectations would present an entirely different aspect. If Brüggen doesn't play it like Karajan, it can also be fairly said he doesn't play it like Pinnock or Solomons, and from my perspective, who wants no two credible performances to sound the same, this is a luxury both for the ears and the brain.

I was delighted when Disco took all of this talk to performance thread, although I suppose it is inevitable it ends up here after all. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on December 14, 2014, 07:34:43 AM

Quote from: Gordo on December 14, 2014, 04:55:58 AM
No, I simply said that Brüggen conducts this music as if it were (as it is!) part of the road towards the construction of the Classical style, with the inner logic and self-control that it implies, and not as if it were an exercise of proto-Romanticism.

Believe it or not, I did write what I wrote precisely as a sort of warning to people searching for different things that those provided by Brüggen's performances.

And for the record: IMO, Brüggen is right, both Baroque and Classical style (with clear differences, of course) essentially talk about order in the world, about things put in the right place and not about the uncomfortable position of the artist in the world. Bach and Haydn (for the case, they work out as "representative men") never considered themselves as "misunderstood geniuses". No doubt they had a clear insight of their personal value and a lot of problems, but their entire life had a common denominator and goal: how to accomplish the requirements of their professional duties into a well regulated world (well, Haydn's last years were a bit different, I know).

You don't like this approach? No surprise because this vision is almost the contrary of presenting Haydn as a sort of John the Baptist, merely preparing the arriving of Beethoven and all that stuff of the "tormented artist" fighting against the world that doesn't understand him.

Therefore, I'm not saying (at all) that Brüggen is doing things against the directions of Haydn, but simply that Brüggen had a solid insight of the complete landscape and he didn't buy the proto-Romantic ticket. And this is powerful because the ~~last quarter~~ the second half of the 18th Century had, of course (and is well documented), its own inner tensions, sorrows and pains to tell, using its own language.

About Chopin? Gould? Nah (almost because of the same reasons aforementioned)... call me mainstream, but I prefer people like Arrau and Rubinstein, or even Pollini or Ashkenazy.

:)

I forgot to pont out some little non sequiturs in your post here.

It may be true that Haydn had as an objective to discharge his professional duties. It doesn't follow that it was his sole objective, or his dominant objective, or that, even if it was his dominant objective, that he was successful at writing music which was in line with it.

It may have been that the a dominant world picture of his times put order at the heart of things. It doesn't follow that Haydn wasn't expressing what he felt about his world, or that his music was a reflection of that (simplistic) world picture.

I'm speaking generally here about a point in logic, I don't know enough about the history of ideas to comment any further.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on December 14, 2014, 08:04:49 AM

Unfortunately, I'm in a hurry at this moment (damn family! :D), so by now I'll just say: I know the last messages reflect a feeling popular these days, particularly among clever people interested in the specifics of certain things. But, as a matter of fact, critical thought and scientific research are impossible without general categories. However, general categories and classifications are only instruments. No intelligent man will consider them as an end or goal in themselves. They are just starting points to particular reflections about concrete concerns... That's the case with notions as baroque, classical and romantic; none of them forbids all the distinctions imaginable by the human mind because are just a general guide towards the history of ideas. At least, this is the way as I see this issue. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 14, 2014, 09:20:38 AM

This ongoing discussion has rather informed my thoughts for this latest essay. Not from an argumentative POV, of course, but strictly as a desire to provide information to any and all who are interested in the thoughts of the time. Please have a read, it's short (for me) :D

Le Siècle des Lumières beyond France (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/12/1782-the-year.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on December 14, 2014, 10:55:04 AM

Thanks for doing that.

This idea of the expressive, meaning creating self which is so central to Sturm und Dang, I know it's sometimes presented as if it popped up out of nowhere in the 1770s, as if it just popped into the minds of Herder and Goethe. But I bet that's not right. I just looked at the preface to Chuck Taylor's big book on Hegel and he suggests that the idea was present in Diderot, but he doesn't pursue it. This is where I feel very conscious of how much I've forgotten -- I studied with Charles Taylor for a term when he was in the UK in the 1980s but it's so long ago it's all gone now.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 14, 2014, 11:44:57 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on December 14, 2014, 10:55:04 AM
Thanks for doing that.

This idea of the expressive, meaning creating self which is so central to Sturm und Dang, I know it's sometimes presented as if it popped up out of nowhere in the 1770s, as if it just popped into the minds of Herder and Goethe. But I bet that's not right. I just looked at the preface to Chuck Taylor's big book on Hegel and he suggests that the idea was present in Diderot, but he doesn't pursue it. This is where I feel very conscious of how much I've forgotten -- I studied with Charles Taylor for a term when he was in the UK in the 1980s but it's so long ago it's all gone now.

No, certainly nothing, especially a major cultural idea, is without its antecedents. What is irritating (I'm sure it is to you too, more than just to me) is the easy hooking together of ideas as though, since they are convenient to each other, they must then be cause and effect. It is intellectual laziness which allows that mode of thought.

And the musical S&D was the blatant creation of a musicologist (St. Foix) writing for the 1909 centennial of Haydn's death. When he could find no reason (as though one is needed) for Haydn to begin to write more expressively, he first posited an Immortal Beloved, and lacking a target to pin it to, came up with S&D. In the 19th century, the trope of artist as composer came about, and late Romantics were absolutely determined to employ the same logic for the 'Classicists' as they felt they knew for the 'Romantics'. Despite the entire concept being totally a stranger to the 18th century.

The problem arises because many ideas are quick in the creation and long in the elimination... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 14, 2014, 02:15:39 PM

I forgot to mention yesterday, I added the next chapter to the chronology of the symphonies for those who are interested. Hope it works for you!

Chronology of the Symphonies part 5 - 1782 - 89 (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/chronology-of-the-symphonies-part-5-1782-1789.html)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on December 14, 2014, 02:17:28 PM

"... a wonderful little song, composed gratis for a young lady."

I need to follow this story, Gurn! It sounds tasty. :D

Excellent essay with clever notes about the context. I loved the painting of Lemonnier, btw; I didn't know it.

Great work, as usual, amigo mío. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 14, 2014, 02:26:43 PM

Quote from: Gordo on December 14, 2014, 02:17:28 PM
"... a wonderful little song, composed gratis for a young lady."

I need to follow this story, Gurn! It sounds tasty. :D

Excellent essay with clever notes about the context. I loved the painting of Lemonnier, btw; I didn't know it.

Great work, as usual, amigo mío. :)

Thank you very kindly, Gordito. I think you can find a larger version of that painting easily, now that you know of it. I am limited to 800 pixels with pictures, and try to go smaller for formatting reasons, but that is barely enough to appreciate the symbolism of the sunlight, which is really the main focus of the painting if you note its position. I wish salons existed even today, it would be a strong enticement for me to move to the city. Well, almost. :)

Would you be surprised then to see that both Haydn and Beethoven each wrote a Lied about a poodle dog? It amuses me to a fault. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Cosi bel do on December 14, 2014, 02:28:27 PM

In response to the discussion in the previous few posts (and that derives from Gurn's latest essay, with which I don't completely agree)...

I'm afraid you're all looking for the impossible thing, which is to find what or who generated sturm und drang or protoromanticism, in Europe, and exactly when and how. There's no year when a phenomenon appears, and attributing it to one person, even Goethe or Herder, is just a reconstruction.

The question of sensitivity, feelings, expression, is fundamental to the Lumières, and not without ties with political ideas concentrating on the individuals, their feelings, their rights, their aspirations. It is particularly true in France where the Lumières blossomed, and I'd cite Rousseau's very particular relationship to the notion of nature, and his attempts at fiction (La Nouvelle Héloïse).
Diderot is interesting, not for his "expressionism", but as one of the inventors of the "drame bourgeois" (with Beaumarchais) that breaks conventions of the classic theatre (and its strongest representants in the 17th century and early 18th were French), and represents "actual" people,. This theatre influenced many operas (the best examples being Mozart's Nozze and Cosi, but also and even more Beethoven's Fidelio).
The 18th is not classicism anymore, asthetically: it is not in literature, it is not in art (just think about Watteau, about Boucher, about how art in France became kind of a caricature of what classical 17th art was, and transformed mythology, perspectives and other elements as mere excuses to represent erotic scenes). It is not in music either, and this change is what we see happening first and foremost in the works of Haydn (and, also, of CPE Bach, of Gluck, etc.). It is not as visible as in literature and theatre, where authors had more freedom (mainly because of their social position, less dependent to the courts or aristocracy in general), but it is a little more than in visual arts. Also, many musicians travelled a lot and were therefore under direct influences of such changes happening at the same time (but in different ways) in different countries of Europe. And it was also the case of Haydn. So, it's no wonder that Haydn showed how music could express feelings, represent "vulgar" or "natural" subjects (a hen, a lark...). In a way, he was among the first European artists to participate in this evolution, before being kind of conservative when still expressing timidly the beauty of nature in his almost pagan oratorio The Seasons, when romanticism was already taking shape and burying all this naïveté.

Of course, he is also "classical" in the sense of the style explored by Rosen, it is just a question of vocabulary. There is a very particular style in the music of the late 18th century, and it was named "classical" mainly because it was just between the "baroque" and the "romantic" eras.
But how history of music is written derives from the vocabulary of German historians, who consider that almost everything between 1600 and Goethe is "baroque", only as a chronological denomination. But if you consider things in a more detailed way, and try to reveal how music was tied to other forms of art, baroque is only one of the elements of the classical aesthetics of the 17th century (the word was never used to describe musicians of the 18th century, either by themselves or contemporaries), that is progressively transformed under the influence of the Lumières into a more expressive art, dominated by the expression of feelings, of desires, by the strength of nature, by "real" people as opposed to mythological figures... All that under the socio-economic influence, also, of the rising "bourgeois" social category (or class...) and therefore as a consequence, also, of the many transformations in economic and social structures in Europe (what has been since called the first industrial revolution, and, also, of course, the result of the first globalization after its first two centuries of development).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on December 14, 2014, 02:36:43 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on December 14, 2014, 06:01:31 AM
What's odd though is that sometimes -- like in 86 -- he's so much more intense. I think -- see whether you agree -- I'm never really sure I understand these style ideas -- romantic, classical etc.

Sometimes Mozart's music seems quite uncomfortable in some performances (PC 24, 20; K310; K563). I don't know enough about the classical period to comment about how stylish (to use premont's wonderful word)Bezuidenhout is. The view that baroque style is really about order -- is that disputed by academics? It wouldn't be hard to find examples of performances which were't particularly stable, which were more abut unresolved tensions in counterpoint etc. But how stylish they are I wouldn't like to say.

Even Gould didn't like Gould in Chopin. He didn't want to have the recording released but his estate defied his wishes. I too quite like Arrau in the 3rd sonata -- best of all in the live one on youtube.

Just standing back a little, I've seen people say that they are interested in HIP becauae HIP performances have proved the most satisfying. At least I've heard them say that hen talking about Bach. If you're right about Haydn and Bruggen, then the HIP way isn't the best way for me today in Haydn -- I would say.

I hope you're wrong about Haydn.

Maybe I'm wrong, maybe not, but this won't change anything of the music itself.

Your issue isn't with this humble listener, but with Haydn or, if we are optimistic, with some performances of his music.

Il messaggero non é importante. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 14, 2014, 02:48:43 PM

Quote from: Discobolus on December 14, 2014, 02:28:27 PM
In response to the discussion in the previous few posts (and that derives from Gurn's latest essay, with which I don't completely agree)...

I'm afraid you're all looking for the impossible thing, which is to find what or who generated sturm und drang or protoromanticism, in Europe, and exactly when and how. There's no year when a phenomenon appears, and attributing it to one person, even Goethe or Herder, is just a reconstruction.

The question of sensitivity, feelings, expression, is fundamental to the Lumières, and not without ties with political ideas concentrating on the individuals, their feelings, their rights, their aspirations. It is particularly true in France where the Lumières blossomed, and I'd cite Rousseau's very particular relationship to the notion of nature, and his attempts at fiction (La Nouvelle Héloïse).
Diderot is interesting, not for his "expressionism", but as one of the inventors of the "drame bourgeois" (with Beaumarchais) that breaks conventions of the classic theatre (and its strongest representants in the 17th century and early 18th were French), and represents "actual" people,. This theatre influenced many operas (the best examples being Mozart's Nozze and Cosi, but also and even more Beethoven's Fidelio).
The 18th is not classicism anymore, asthetically: it is not in literature, it is not in art (just think about Watteau, about Boucher, about how art in France became kind of a caricature of what classical 17th art was, and transformed mythology, perspectives and other elements as mere excuses to represent erotic scenes). It is not in music either, and this change is what we see happening first and foremost in the works of Haydn (and, also, of CPE Bach, of Gluck, etc.). It is not as visible as in literature and theatre, where authors had more freedom (mainly because of their social position, less dependent to the courts or aristocracy in general), but it is a little more than in visual arts. Also, many musicians travelled a lot and were therefore under direct influences of such changes happening at the same time (but in different ways) in different countries of Europe. And it was also the case of Haydn. So, it's no wonder that Haydn showed how music could express feelings, represent "vulgar" or "natural" subjects (a hen, a lark...). In a way, he was among the first European artists to participate in this evolution, before being kind of conservative when still expressing timidly the beauty of nature in his almost pagan oratorio The Seasons, when romanticism was already taking shape and burying all this naïveté.

Of course, he is also "classical" in the sense of the style explored by Rosen, it is just a question of vocabulary. There is a very particular style in the music of the late 18th century, and it was named "classical" mainly because it was just between the "baroque" and the "romantic" eras.
But how history of music is written derives from the vocabulary of German historians, who consider that almost everything between 1600 and Goethe is "baroque", only as a chronological denomination. But if you consider things in a more detailed way, and try to reveal how music was tied to other forms of art, baroque is only one of the elements of the classical aesthetics of the 17th century (the word was never used to describe musicians of the 18th century, either by themselves or contemporaries), that is progressively transformed under the influence of the Lumières into a more expressive art, dominated by the expression of feelings, of desires, by the strength of nature, by "real" people as opposed to mythological figures... All that under the socio-economic influence, also, of the rising "bourgeois" social category (or class...) and therefore as a consequence, also, of the many transformations in economic and social structures in Europe (what has been since called the first industrial revolution, and, also, of course, the result of the first globalization after its first two centuries of development).

I won't reply your entire post, since I agree with much of it. Some things I must correct though: The fact is I couldn't care less about Sturm und Drang, I wish only it would disappear as a red herring which distracts people from what the music itself is doing. There is no real connection between literary S&D and music.

I don't agree though about Haydn's proposed insertion of musical images into his music. Such visual images as a hen, a lark and a bear are completely not of Haydn at all. They were proposed and codified by 19th century observers. This is why I say so strongly that this belief system which has sprung up around Haydn is total crap, a construction of a different time. And it panders to the imagination of moderns just as it did Romantics, and creates expectations in the listening for things which don't even exist except in some fevered imagination.

Other than that, of course, we are in total agreement. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on December 14, 2014, 02:55:46 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 14, 2014, 02:26:43 PM
Thank you very kindly, Gordito. I think you can find a larger version of that painting easily, now that you know of it. I am limited to 800 pixels with pictures, and try to go smaller for formatting reasons, but that is barely enough to appreciate the symbolism of the sunlight, which is really the main focus of the painting if you note its position. I wish salons existed even today, it would be a strong enticement for me to move to the city. Well, almost. :)

Yes, I found a picture with better resolution. I needed to see the sunlight over the heads.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 14, 2014, 02:26:43 PM
Would you be surprised then to see that both Haydn and Beethoven each wrote a Lied about a poodle dog? It amuses me to a fault. :))

As usual, i guess the real target wasn't the puppy, but the lovely lady holding it against her chest. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Cosi bel do on December 14, 2014, 03:05:50 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 14, 2014, 02:48:43 PM
I don't agree though about Haydn's proposed insertion of musical images into his music. Such visual images as a hen, a lark and a bear are completely not of Haydn at all. They were proposed and codified by 19th century observers. This is why I say so strongly that this belief system which has sprung up around Haydn is total crap, a construction of a different time. And it panders to the imagination of moderns just as it did Romantics, and creates expectations in the listening for things which don't even exist except in some fevered imagination.

Yes that's stupid of me not to have thought about what I was writing on this case of nicknames. I know most of these nicknames don't derive from Haydn himself. Still, I'm not clear whether their origin is always dated with certainty. I don't know what the most reliable source on this is ?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 14, 2014, 03:42:39 PM

Quote from: Discobolus on December 14, 2014, 03:05:50 PM
Yes that's stupid of me not to have thought about what I was writing on this case of nicknames. I know most of these nicknames don't derive from Haydn himself. Still, I'm not clear whether their origin is always dated with certainty. I don't know what the most reliable source on this is ?

I have only picked up this information en passant, sometimes authors don't consider it worth mentioning, I suppose. But I will tell you a generalization: fully 90% come from 19th century music publishers and critics/reviewers. In one of my essays I wrote about this, although there listing the actual authentic names. They are few. Among the symphonies, the Times of Day set and Tempora mutantur may possibly be the only ones, at least all I can remember right now. Of the remainder, the ones I have seen dated seem to originate in the early 19th century, when Haydn was still a 'hot name' in composing. The English were the most frequent abusers. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on December 14, 2014, 09:00:39 PM

Personal note.

The musical work which to me best expresses Sturm und Drang is....
Brahms PC 1.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 15, 2014, 03:02:12 AM

Quote from: Discobolus on December 14, 2014, 03:05:50 PM
Yes that's stupid of me not to have thought about what I was writing on this case of nicknames. I know most of these nicknames don't derive from Haydn himself. Still, I'm not clear whether their origin is always dated with certainty.

We have a certain date for "The Cat" (99 E flat): 8 Dec 2011 8)

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg583345.html#msg583345

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on December 15, 2014, 03:41:38 AM

Sure, we have to work with categories to communicate (and I am also reasonably convinced that categories like "electron" and "african elephant" refer to real distinctions in nature). But it's another thing in cultural history and in my impression "baroque", "classical/classicism", "romanticism" in music are often problematic and not all that helpful in the end.
I assume that all of us here usually know better, but one still finds "courtly" as a characterization of music when this is obviously mostly true for the 17th and 18th (and earlier) centuries (technically it was frequently true until about 100 years ago as many court orchestras and operas were still associated with the courts of Austria and German states, just think of the Meininger Hofkapelle and Brahms and King Ludwig of Bavaria and Wagner) but also obviously vacuous. Because the musical differences between Lully and Haydn are not to be explained by the differences of courtly live in Versailles 1670 vs. Eisenstadt 1770. Or at least I would not expect an explanation I find musically illuminating from socio-historical analysis of those courts. And while baroque music has lots of things in common over more than a 100 years there are also huge differences between contemporaries. (Take "classical" restrained, perfectionist Corelli and mannered, fanciful, over the top Biber.)
Similarly in the second half of the 18th century we have the decorative ("courtly") aspect, we have the "Empfindsamkeit" of CPE Bach who wrote both a "Farewell to my clavier" as well as "CPE Bach's emotions expressed in a clavier fantasy", we have Rousseau's polemics against the artificial and the striving for "natural" expression of emotions etc. Just lots of competing strains, so it is not a miracle that we would find several of them in Haydn without being able to give a straight chronological ordering of phases like "Sturm & Drang".

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 15, 2014, 04:51:53 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 14, 2014, 09:00:39 PM
Personal note.

The musical work which to me best expresses Sturm und Drang is....
Brahms PC 1.

:) Amen! 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 15, 2014, 05:03:22 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on December 15, 2014, 03:41:38 AM
Sure, we have to work with categories to communicate (and I am also reasonably convinced that categories like "electron" and "african elephant" refer to real distinctions in nature). But it's another thing in cultural history and in my impression "baroque", "classical/classicism", "romanticism" in music are often problematic and not all that helpful in the end.
I assume that all of us here usually know better, but one still finds "courtly" as a characterization of music when this is obviously mostly true for the 17th and 18th (and earlier) centuries (technically it was frequently true until about 100 years ago as many court orchestras and operas were still associated with the courts of Austria and German states, just think of the Meininger Hofkapelle and Brahms and King Ludwig of Bavaria and Wagner) but also obviously vacuous. Because the musical differences between Lully and Haydn are not to be explained by the differences of courtly live in Versailles 1670 vs. Eisenstadt 1770. Or at least I would not expect an explanation I find musically illuminating from socio-historical analysis of those courts. And while baroque music has lots of things in common over more than a 100 years there are also huge differences between contemporaries. (Take "classical" restrained, perfectionist Corelli and mannered, fanciful, over the top Biber.)
Similarly in the second half of the 18th century we have the decorative ("courtly") aspect, we have the "Empfindsamkeit" of CPE Bach who wrote both a "Farewell to my clavier" as well as "CPE Bach's emotions expressed in a clavier fantasy", we have Rousseau's polemics against the artificial and the striving for "natural" expression of emotions etc. Just lots of competing strains, so it is not a miracle that we would find several of them in Haydn without being able to give a straight chronological ordering of phases like "Sturm & Drang".

Yes, we are stuck with it (I am a good summer up of things!). My personal irritation with labels of this type, not least THIS label, is the expectations which are aroused in the listener which then affect his/her view of a performance. An example, which got us started on this road, is the Brüggen S&D performances which weren't Sturmier enough for the listener. Or perhaps not Drangier enough, I couldn't tell. :D

Your comparison of Corelli and Biber is spot on as far as Baroque goes, and I would go one further and compare the violin concertos of Bach v Vivaldi.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on December 16, 2014, 11:13:05 PM

I am still only about halfway through the thread, but one thing I realized is that there is quite a bit of Haydn beyond the "obvious" collections (Symphonies, string quartet, piano sonatas etc.). So my holiday suggestion is that everyone interested should name 3-5 lesser known pieces and recordings they particularly recommend and think likely to be overlooked even by longtime Haydn fanciers. I do not want to exclude anything beforehand, but I think we should leave out symphonies, quartets, piano sonatas, piano trios, the oratorios, the 6 late Masses and the concertos for cello and trumpet.
Looking forward to your dark horse candidates!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: chasmaniac on December 17, 2014, 03:16:41 AM

Oooh, 6 Sonatas for Violin and Viola and a smattering of the folksong arrangements.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on December 17, 2014, 04:07:41 AM

Agreed. :) More off-the-beaten-path suggestions:

[asin]B000002BZN[/asin]
[asin]B0000029VE[/asin]
Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on December 17, 2014, 05:55:09 AM

Since it has been mentioned...

Quote from: Ton KoopmanNever forget that baroque is synonymous with too – too much, too dynamic, too colourful, too contrasted, too slow, too fast, and so on

Too much / dynamic / colorful / contrasted / slow / fast for whom? For Ton Koopman? If he says so, we must believe him. For the "Baroque" composers and performers themselves? Hardly. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on December 17, 2014, 06:26:46 AM

Quote from: Florestan on December 17, 2014, 05:55:09 AM
Since it has been mentioned...

Too much / dynamic / colorful / contrasted / slow / fast for whom? For Ton Koopman? If he says so, we must believe him. For the "Baroque" composers and performers themselves? Hardly. ;D

No, for the proponents of a more popular, "natural" and simpler style from the 1730s on, starting with the "gallant style", then "Empfindsamkeit" and (what we call) early classicism of the Mannheim school and others.
Roughly, preferring Hasse to Handel and Handel to JS Bach.
Of course what WE call baroque, that is almost everything from 1600-1750, is highly diverse, as I illustrated with the Biber vs. Corelli example. So Corelli is not "too much" in such a sense as Biber's colorful and mannered way is.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on December 18, 2014, 12:50:37 AM

Baroque as a term for music is something that was pilfered from the visual arts. Reading too much into the literal meaning of the word is dangerous.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on December 18, 2014, 10:12:54 AM

The Hurwitzer strikes; "CD From Hell: Haydn Horn Flatulence from Fey"

http://www.classicstoday.com/review/cd-hell-haydn-horn-flatulence-fey/ (http://www.classicstoday.com/review/cd-hell-haydn-horn-flatulence-fey/)

The complete review unfortunately is behind a pay wall.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 18, 2014, 10:21:54 AM

Quote from: The new erato on December 18, 2014, 10:12:54 AM
The Hurwitzer strikes; "CD From Hell: Haydn Horn Flatulence from Fey"

http://www.classicstoday.com/review/cd-hell-haydn-horn-flatulence-fey/ (http://www.classicstoday.com/review/cd-hell-haydn-horn-flatulence-fey/)

The complete review unfortunately is behind a pay wall.

Just from the sentence or two that you can read, it is easy to identify the usual Hurwitz bullshit. What a dolt ::)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on December 18, 2014, 10:25:42 AM

Quote from: The new erato on December 18, 2014, 10:12:54 AM
The complete review unfortunately is behind a pay wall.

At least, this way it's less harmful. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 18, 2014, 10:37:17 AM

Quote from: Gordo on December 18, 2014, 10:25:42 AM
At least, this way it's less harmful. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on December 18, 2014, 10:42:13 AM

Quote from: Gordo on December 18, 2014, 10:25:42 AM
At least, this way it's less harmful. :)

Farting hobbits; they're harmful?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 18, 2014, 11:21:55 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 18, 2014, 10:21:54 AM
Just from the sentence or two that you can read, it is easy to identify the usual Hurwitz bullshit. What a dolt ::)

His main gripe is with the Fey's speeds:

"It might be possible to play these two concertos with attractive tone on the natural horn—the two adagios suggest as much - but not at the ridiculously quick tempos that Fey adopts for the outer movements [of Horn Concerto 1). Bruns copes gamely, but still sounds desperate..."

"In the symphony, Fey also continues his current practice of playing everything as fast as humanly possible..."

I'm not sure his criticism here rises to the level of dolthood but I certainly don't agree with him...not in these performances anyway. Truth is, some of Fey's tempos elsewhere are extreme...but at least you get something unique for your money 8)

Okay, his cheap remark about the near impossibility of playing with an attractive tone on the natural horn is the raving of a lunatic ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on December 18, 2014, 11:54:32 AM

I am still offended by the obnoxiously quick tempos Fey uses in #92, but generally, he's a lot of fun when he decides to race to the finish line.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 18, 2014, 11:59:40 AM

Quote from: Brian on December 18, 2014, 11:54:32 AM
I am still offended by the obnoxiously quick tempos Fey uses in #92, but generally, he's a lot of fun when he decides to race to the finish line.

92 doesn't bother me much but what he does in the first movement of No.1 has a Gouldian lunacy that's laugh out loud funny. I prefer something a bit slower. Fischer is ideal here.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 18, 2014, 12:03:36 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 18, 2014, 11:21:55 AM
His main gripe is with the Fey's speeds:

"It might be possible to play these two concertos with attractive tone on the natural horn—the two adagios suggest as much - but not at the ridiculously quick tempos that Fey adopts for the outer movements [of Horn Concerto 1). Bruns copes gamely, but still sounds desperate..."

"In the symphony, Fey also continues his current practice of playing everything as fast as humanly possible..."

I'm not sure his criticism here rises to the level of dolthood but I certainly don't agree with him...not in these performances anyway. Truth is, some of Fey's tempos elsewhere are extreme...but at least you get something unique for your money 8)

Okay, his cheap remark about the near impossibility of playing with an attractive tone on the natural horn is the raving of a lunatic ;D

Sarge

That' is all I was dolting him for. Bruns plays wonderfully well on this disk, as you know, I recently purchased it specifically for Horn Concerto #2, which I listened to at least a dozen times, and I could detect no issues on Bruns' part. Actually, if you read virtually any other reviews of his which include natural horns, his complaint is a constant. He gigged Huss & Co on the Prince of Naples set, or maybe it was the Early Divertimenti set, with something like 'this would all sound fine for period instruments if they would just switch over to valve horns...' ??? Clearly he doesn't like natural horns. Which would be fine if he would then refrain from writing about them. Dolt. >:( :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 18, 2014, 12:14:56 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 18, 2014, 12:03:36 PM
That' is all I was dolting him for. Bruns plays wonderfully well on this disk, as you know, I recently purchased it specifically for Horn Concerto #2, which I listened to at least a dozen times, and I could detect no issues on Bruns' part. Actually, if you read virtually any other reviews of his which include natural horns, his complaint is a constant. He gigged Huss & Co on the Prince of Naples set, or maybe it was the Early Divertimenti set, with something like 'this would all sound fine for period instruments if they would just switch over to valve horns...' ??? Clearly he doesn't like natural horns. Which would be fine if he would then refrain from writing about them. Dolt. >:( :)

8)

And yet he never criticizes the band's natural horns, even when they are playing at Fey's most extreme speeds. It's that contradiction that makes his reviews maddening, and makes viewing him as a dolt possible ;) On the other hand, he'll write things like this which make me love the man:

Haydn Vol.11 57 59 65 10/10

If you love classical music you'd have to be insane not to be thrilled at the prospect of this year's commemoration of the 200th anniversary of Haydn's death: there's just so much great music to enjoy. Take this release. Does anyone really know or care about Symphony No. 57? Well, you should. First of all, it's a large piece, some 30 minutes with repeats observed. Second, as played here, with Haydn's original timpani part restored, it's sensationally exciting. The articulation of the strings in the prestissimo finale has to be heard to be believed–but then every movement reveals Haydn's inspiration operating at typically high voltage.

Both the "Fire" Symphony and No. 65 also feature virtuoso finales, with brilliant horn writing that Thomas Fey's players obviously relish. But the slow movements also delight (and never drag), and Fey's use of the harpsichord continuo, a habit that has no basis in historical fact and sounds just plain vile most of the time, is a model for how it should be done. He generally restricts the instrument to tutti passages (which of course renders its participation even more pointless) or touches in an important bass line, but never turns what ought to be a discreet accompaniment into a concertante extravaganza.

Generally speaking the playing is so astoundingly exciting that even this caveat matters not a whit. You will come away from these performances simply astounded by the richness and vitality of Haydn's inexhaustible powers of invention, which is exactly as it should be. Buy this brilliantly engineered disc, savor it, and look forward to the next installment. 10/10

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 18, 2014, 12:22:38 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 18, 2014, 12:14:56 PM
And yet he never criticizes the band's natural horns, even when they are playing at Fey's most extreme speeds. It's that contradiction that makes his review's maddening, and makes viewing him as a dolt possible ;) On the other hand, he'll write things like this which make me love the man:

Haydn Vol.11 57 59 65 10/10

If you love classical music you'd have to be insane not to be thrilled at the prospect of this year's commemoration of the 200th anniversary of Haydn's death: there's just so much great music to enjoy. Take this release. Does anyone really know or care about Symphony No. 57? Well, you should. First of all, it's a large piece, some 30 minutes with repeats observed. Second, as played here, with Haydn's original timpani part restored, it's sensationally exciting. The articulation of the strings in the prestissimo finale has to be heard to be believed–but then every movement reveals Haydn's inspiration operating at typically high voltage.

Both the "Fire" Symphony and No. 65 also feature virtuoso finales, with brilliant horn writing that Thomas Fey's players obviously relish. But the slow movements also delight (and never drag), and Fey's use of the harpsichord continuo, a habit that has no basis in historical fact and sounds just plain vile most of the time, is a model for how it should be done. He generally restricts the instrument to tutti passages (which of course renders its participation even more pointless) or touches in an important bass line, but never turns what ought to be a discreet accompaniment into a concertante extravaganza.

Generally speaking the playing is so astoundingly exciting that even this caveat matters not a whit. You will come away from these performances simply astounded by the richness and vitality of Haydn's inexhaustible powers of invention, which is exactly as it should be. Buy this brilliantly engineered disc, savor it, and look forward to the next installment. 10/10

Sarge

Yeah, I know, it's like 'Angel Dave' comes out of hiding on occasion, while 'Devil Dave' is there most of the time. Of course, I fully realize you like this review because he agrees with you about continuo. This time. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 18, 2014, 12:36:36 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 18, 2014, 12:22:38 PM
Yeah, I know, it's like 'Angel Dave' comes out of hiding on occasion, while 'Devil Dave' is there most of the time. Of course, I fully realize you like this review because he agrees with you about continuo. This time. :D

8)

;D :laugh: ;D yeah, his review of Vol.11 was the last completely positive review he's given Fey. It's been downhill ever since >:(

Vol.12 (48 56) 7/9

Vol. 13 (93 96 97) 6/9

Vol. 14 (31 Horn Concertos) 6/9

Vol. 16 (90 92) 7/9

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on December 18, 2014, 12:47:36 PM

I recently got the 57/59/65 disc (because I had forgotten that I had 57/65 already on a promotional disc with the 1st horn concerto...) I will have to compare it to some other recordings, but while I like 65 (and probably 57, do not really know the piece all that well) I am not quite convinced by the "fire" (the piece on the disc I believe to know best). Fey is too fast and sounds rather small scale in the first movement. He has also some exaggerated slowing downs (I think before the recap in i and also in ii). As said in the other thread, this is typical of my Fey experience: Some things are great and he obviously takes great care with details. But other things are just too mannered and outré for my taste.

Thanks for the "dark horse" recs so far. I have the "Haydn's Horns" disc and will put the violin/viola duos on my wishlist (it is kind of expensive and I am also not really sure whether I like two fiddles only). Of the Lira pieces I have the "DeLirium" disc, but not the Archbudelli & Co (these are the Flute/Oboe arrangement?)
Probably Gurn has explained the history and different version of those Lira works somewhere already...?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 18, 2014, 05:09:27 PM

I think I did post about some background of the 8 notturnos, but will happily do so again this weekend if you are still interested. The short answer to your question is that L'Archibudelli play the London versions; that is, the ones without a lira. When Haydn went to London he had a contractual obligation to provide at least one new piece for each concert, of which there were many. He knew the notturni were fine music, and also that there would not be any lira there, so he rescored them;

Originals: 2 Lire organizzate, 2 Clarinets, 2 Horns, 2 Violas & Basso

London: Flute, Oboe, 2 Violins 2 Horns, 2 Violas, Cello & Basso

As far as I know, he only rescored 5 or 6 of them, but the L'Archibudelli disk has all 8 of them on it, so maybe the others were found later on. There are some papers available, except I can't read Japanese... :-\

I know that many people's tastes are too sophisticated for galant pre-Classical chamber music, but I have to tell you, I listen to these two frequently and always with great enjoyment:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnCamerataBerolinensisStringTriovol1_zpsc70c8100.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnCamerataBerolinensisStringTriovol2_zps59a27cf6.jpg)

I would have been delighted when I was exploring less mainstream Haydn to have someone rec these disks to me. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on December 18, 2014, 05:41:53 PM

If I recall correctly, the famous Mr.Anonymous was responsible for the other arrangements of the Notturnos.

Received 32 CDs of Haydn today from JPC: Festetics and Bruggen.

I can not tell if the Festetics liner notes are new or simply reprints of the original. The English version is here.
http://issuu.com/elvanden/docs/a_378_booklet_web-link?e=6026233/9618736

French, German and Italian versions also available (Outhere's website... Click on Arcana, and the new box is featured.)

Bruggen contains only a track listing.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 18, 2014, 05:47:34 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 18, 2014, 05:41:53 PM
If I recall correctly, the famous Mr.Anonymous was responsible for the other arrangements of the Notturnos.

Received 32 CDs of Haydn today from JPC: Festetics and Bruggen.

I can not tell if the Festetics liner notes are new or simply reprints of the original. The English version is here.
http://issuu.com/elvanden/docs/a_378_booklet_web-link?e=6026233/9618736

French, German and Italian versions also available (Outhere's website... Click on Arcana, and the new box is featured.)

Bruggen contains only a track listing.

Probably so. I simply can't remember OTTOMH! :)

That's outstanding! Great glut of great music, you can't beat that! Just scanning through the notes on the string quartets, they do look like the originals, merely reformatted. Which is a good thing, since Somfai is probably the top musicologist to come out of Hungary, and a Haydn specialist. Good stuff there.

Happy listenings!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 21, 2014, 07:47:40 AM

I can be tragically overemotional, as you all know, flying off the handle at the slightest provocation. And the provocation provided by slight of symphonies 76-81 provides a bit of fodder for this week's essay. Not only are recordings thin on the ground, it was even hard to find reference material! :o But I dug up a few items, hope you enjoy them.

The real London Symphonies!?! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/12/1782-the-music-part-1-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on December 21, 2014, 10:21:31 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 21, 2014, 07:47:40 AM
I can be tragically overemotional, as you all know, flying off the handle at the slightest provocation. And the provocation provided by slight of symphonies 76-81 provides a bit of fodder for this week's essay. Not only are recordings thin on the ground, it was even hard to find reference material! :o But I dug up a few items, hope you enjoy them.

The real London Symphonies!?! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/12/1782-the-music-part-1-.html)

Thanks for the informative essay. I await another essay on 79-81.

The Adam Fischer recordings remain my favorites for 76-78. And I do like those symphonies very much.

There are Hogwood / AAM performances of 79 and 81 on Youtube:

79: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17cUF3RSyZc

81: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUqwuLDQRmw

Audio quality is not the best but quite listenable for me. I like both performances.

A word of praise for the Orpheus CO recordings. Those were the first recordings I got for 77-81 and I still enjoy them.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 21, 2014, 10:29:19 AM

Quote from: Old Listener on December 21, 2014, 10:21:31 AM
Thanks for the informative essay. I await another essay on 79-81.

The Adam Fischer recordings remain my favorites for 76-78. And I do like those symphonies very much.

There are Hogwood / AAM performances of 79 and 81 on Youtube:

79: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17cUF3RSyZc

81: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUqwuLDQRmw

Audio quality is not the best but quite listenable for me. I like both performances.

A word of praise for the Orpheus CO recordings. Those were the first recordings I got for 77-81 and I still enjoy them.

Thanks for reading! Also for the links. I heard rumors of the existence of video versions but hadn't run across them. It also reinforces my wonderment that since they are in the repertoire, the Band never got them down on CD. WTF? ???

I also learned these courtesy of the Orpheus. It's true, there are recordings, and some good ones. But they are either in complete cycles and recorded by default or the rare one-off like Orpheus. And none of them are on period instruments, not on CD at least. Freiburg Baroque does a fine #80 though. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on December 21, 2014, 07:06:08 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 21, 2014, 07:47:40 AM
I can be tragically overemotional, as you all know, flying off the handle at the slightest provocation.

Take heart: someone's got your back:

"Often, when struggling against obstacles of every sort which oppose my labors; often, when the powers of mind and body weakened, and it was difficult for me to continue in the course I had entered on, a secret voice whispered to me: 'There are so few happy and contented peoples down here below; grief and sorrow are always their lot; perhaps your labors will once be a source from which the care-worn, or the man burdened with affairs, can derive a few moments' rest and refreshment'". -- Papa himself. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2014, 04:46:25 AM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on December 21, 2014, 07:06:08 PM
Take heart: someone's got your back:

"Often, when struggling against obstacles of every sort which oppose my labors; often, when the powers of mind and body weakened, and it was difficult for me to continue in the course I had entered on, a secret voice whispered to me: 'There are so few happy and contented peoples down here below; grief and sorrow are always their lot; perhaps your labors will once be a source from which the care-worn, or the man burdened with affairs, can derive a few moments' rest and refreshment'". -- Papa himself. :)

Damned near philosophical! 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on December 22, 2014, 06:13:24 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 21, 2014, 07:47:40 AM
I can be tragically overemotional, as you all know, flying off the handle at the slightest provocation.

Well, you did get pretty worked up when someone said Haydn had been an amiable man!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on December 22, 2014, 07:46:26 AM

With the Notturnos my choice seems to be between Archibudelli (London version with flute/oboe) or Kloeckner's Collegium Classicum (organ?). Is that right? Any preferences between those?
I'll keep the early string trios in mind and maybe try one disc later. They seem somewhat similar in form to the baryton trios, not such a high priori for me now.

I completely agree with you an the others on the symphonies 76-81. Sure, some things will fall by the wayside, but it is hard to understand with these wonderful works did (and 71,74,75 are not half bad either). My favorite of them, #80 has been surprisingly lucky, starting with Scherchen's historical recording. The last one I heard was Jane Glover with modern chamber orchestra, also quite good, the only really disappointing one I remember was Müller-Brühl on Naxos (who ruins the first movement by exaggerated rubati). I do not remember Fischer in 79-81 very well, but I recently listened to his 76-78 and this is one of the best discs in his set, I'd say. With him and Goodman I am quite satisfied in 76-78 (although when Fey gets there I'll probably give him a try and it would certainly be nice to have Hogwood).

I do not have the Orpheus 78 and 79 yet, but their 80 and 81 are top notch; the latter better played than Fischer, IIRC and the disc with 22,63 and 80 is the best of the 4 Orpheus/Haydn discs I have heard. I probably preferred Fischer in 77. The Orpheus can be a little "clinical" at times, compared to the more "juicy" Fischer (at his best).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2014, 07:51:12 AM

Quote from: Ken B on December 22, 2014, 06:13:24 AM
Well, you did get pretty worked up when someone said Haydn had been an amiable man!

Well, wouldn't you! >:(

:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2014, 08:07:43 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on December 22, 2014, 07:46:26 AM
With the Notturnos my choice seems to be between Archibudelli (London version with flute/oboe) or Kloeckner's Collegium Classicum (organ?). Is that right? Any preferences between those?

I actually really do like the Klöcker disk. Yes, it uses an organ positif in place of the liras, but it also uses the clarinet (Naples) version: how could it be otherwise with Klöcker?? The sound of the little organ they use is really complementary to this music. For the London versions, L'Archibudelli is excellent, although Haydn Sinfonietta/Huss is very good too. I like that L'Archibudelli do all 8 of them, most alternative versions only do 6.

This may be the original PI version, I think it is:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HackerNocturnes_zps59f2b69f.jpg)

Hacker is a well-known flautist, and these are well played also.

QuoteI'll keep the early string trios in mind and maybe try one disc later. They seem somewhat similar in form to the baryton trios, not such a high priority for me now.

I must say though, there is almost no resemblance to the baryton trios, these are much more galant and actually require rather a lot of virtuosity from the 1st fiddle. See if you can stream it from whoever you do that with and I bet you will be surprised. :)

QuoteI completely agree with you an the others on the symphonies 76-81. Sure, some things will fall by the wayside, but it is hard to understand with these wonderful works did (and 71,74,75 are not half bad either). My favorite of them, #80 has been surprisingly lucky, starting with Scherchen's historical recording. The last one I heard was Jane Glover with modern chamber orchestra, also quite good, the only really disappointing one I remember was Müller-Brühl on Naxos (who ruins the first movement by exaggerated rubati). I do not remember Fischer in 79-81 very well, but I recently listened to his 76-78 and this is one of the best discs in his set, I'd say. With him and Goodman I am quite satisfied in 76-78 (although when Fey gets there I'll probably give him a try and
I do not have the Orpheus 78 and 79 yet, but their 80 and 81 are top notch; the latter better played than Fischer, IIRC and the disc with 22,63 and 80 is the best of the 4 Orpheus/Haydn discs I have heard. I probably preferred Fischer in 77. The Orpheus can be a little "clinical" at times, compared to the more "juicy" Fischer (at his best).

I haven't listened around much outside of the PI world, although I do have Fischer of course, which is who I use in the breach here (for 79 & 81), and the Orpheus (which I need to unpack and re-listen after a dozen years). I used that Glover disk before the Freiburg Baroque #80 came out. It was OK, didn't really light me up, but better than nothing at all certainly.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on December 22, 2014, 08:46:35 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2014, 07:51:12 AM
Well, wouldn't you! >:(

:D

8)

Indeed. Haydn was not 'an amiable man'. He was a really amiable man!

*runs for cover*

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2014, 08:52:34 AM

Quote from: Ken B on December 22, 2014, 08:46:35 AM
Indeed. Haydn was not 'an amiable man'. He was a really amiable man!

*runs for cover*

Why, I oughtta... :P

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2014, 09:20:59 AM

My top PI Haydn disks of 2014. Criteria are - not a re-release, not a collection of composers, period instruments only.

I was surprised to see no string quartet releases in 2014. The several I got were all released in 2013, although not in America, apparently. :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/TopCDsof2014small_zps51cfd07b.jpg)

Interested to see if you have any other favorites I missed.

8)

PS - On that last one, disk 1 IS a re-release, but disk 2, not so much. Getting disk 2 made it worth buying disk 1 twice!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on December 22, 2014, 05:28:55 PM

Well, technically the Festetics box set is a new release, even if the individual discs are not.
Otherwise we apparently need to wait for the London Haydn Quartet to get back into gear.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on December 22, 2014, 05:45:52 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2014, 09:20:59 AM
My top PI Haydn disks of 2014. Criteria are - not a re-release, not a collection of composers, period instruments only.

I was surprised to see no string quartet releases in 2014. The several I got were all released in 2013, although not in America, apparently. :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/TopCDsof2014small_zps51cfd07b.jpg)

Interested to see if you have any other favorites I missed.

8)

PS - On that last one, disk 1 IS a re-release, but disk 2, not so much. Getting disk 2 made it worth buying disk 1 twice!

No doubt you have selected all the best releases of this year, Gurn; so it's hard to try to add something else.

A disk I loved this year was one called "Ladies First! Opera Arias By Joseph Haydn"; but it doesn't fulfill your requirements: it was released in 2013 and "Combattimento Consort Amsterdam" doesn't play PI (although is a HIP ensemble).

On the contrary and unexpectedly, Herreweghe conducting "The Seasons" was a bit a disappointment. :(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2014, 06:13:04 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 22, 2014, 05:28:55 PM
Well, technically the Festetics box set is a new release, even if the individual discs are not.
Otherwise we apparently need to wait for the London Haydn Quartet to get back into gear.

There were several fine re-releases, like your Brüggen symphonies box too.

I thought the London Haydn Quartet Op 33 was released in June, sine that is when it was released here (I got it the day it came out!). But the rest of the world saw in in October 2013. Sure hope Opus 50 comes along soon! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2014, 06:17:12 PM

Quote from: Gordo on December 22, 2014, 05:45:52 PM
No doubt you have selected all the best releases of this year, Gurn; so it's hard to try to add something else.

A disk I loved this year was one called "Ladies First! Opera Arias By Joseph Haydn"; but it doesn't fulfill your requirements: it was released in 2013 and "Combattimento Consort Amsterdam" doesn't play PI (although is a HIP ensemble).

On the contrary and unexpectedly, Herreweghe conducting "The Seasons" was a bit a disappointment. :(

Oh, sorry to hear that. I haven't got it yet and have been looking forward to it.

I just saw a double disk at Presto by 'Revolutionary Drawing Room'. It is 4 quartets, one each by Haydn (Op 50 #1), Mozart (K465), Ditters and Vanhal. A sort of recreation of the Quartet Party of Michael Kelly. Releasing January 5. I am fond of that group, and also that moment in time. I shall probably have it as my first disk of 2015!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2014, 06:19:03 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 22, 2014, 05:28:55 PM
Well, technically the Festetics box set is a new release, even if the individual discs are not.
Otherwise we apparently need to wait for the London Haydn Quartet to get back into gear.

Oh, the other string quartet which came out in USA in 2014 but worldwide in 2013 was Schuppanzigh Vol 3. I sure wanted to include those two disks on my list... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on December 22, 2014, 06:52:10 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2014, 06:17:12 PM
Oh, sorry to hear that. I haven't got it yet and have been looking forward to it.

Anyway, I think this time my opinion is even more subjective than usual because I don't have any specific quibble against Herreweghe. Singers, chorus and orchestra are very good, but ultimately I'm not convinced with the final picture, a bit solemn and excessively stern. I'm sure other people will think other way.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on December 23, 2014, 04:29:37 AM

The best new Haydn I've heard this year was a rerelease, the Piano sonatas played by Charles Rosen. The Eybler Quartet's op 33 was my best new find - it was released last year. Finally I've found an op 33 I like.

The Lubimov 7 last words I couldn't get on with, but I don't much care for the music really. My bad taste.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on December 23, 2014, 10:06:28 AM

I have never heard the 7 last words on piano(forte) as I cannot really imagine that it will work on that instrument. I am quite fascinated by the orchestral, string quartet and choral versions of the piece.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 23, 2014, 10:35:42 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on December 23, 2014, 10:06:28 AM
I have never heard the 7 last words on piano(forte) as I cannot really imagine that it will work on that instrument. I am quite fascinated by the orchestral, string quartet and choral versions of the piece.

There are some excellent versions. Probably the easiest one to find online to try out is Brautigam, but Tuma, Lubimov, Immerseel etc. all have highly interesting versions. There is even a version on clavichord!! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 27, 2014, 07:39:22 AM

Well, life isn't all world-beating symphonies and string quartets, sometimes you have to just sit and play the piano whilst petting a poodle! I looked at this side of Haydn this week, have a look and see.

Seriously, 20 verses? In German!?! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/12/1782-the-music-part-2-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on December 28, 2014, 05:54:05 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 27, 2014, 07:39:22 AM
Well, life isn't all world-beating symphonies and string quartets, sometimes you have to just sit and play the piano whilst petting a poodle! I looked at this side of Haydn this week, have a look and see.

Seriously, 20 verses? In German!?! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/12/1782-the-music-part-2-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Thanks, Gurn! It's a fantastic story (very hot, indeed :D): excellent to get a realistic image of our hero, I think. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 28, 2014, 05:57:12 AM

Quote from: Gordo on December 28, 2014, 05:54:05 AM
Thanks, Gurn! It's a fantastic story (very hot, indeed :D): excellent to get a realistic image of our hero, I think. :)

Thanks, Gordo! I liked that story too. It has always been there in Greisinger, I guess it just wasn't sexy enough for the big time biographers to follow up on. But for me, a girl and a dog are all it takes to make an enjoyable story! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on December 28, 2014, 06:07:19 AM

Who knows if this song wasn't just "the beginning of a beautiful friendship"...

A famous composer, a young lady who's his fan, a sexy gift. This kind of uncertainty has always been the source of all historical novels. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 28, 2014, 06:12:13 AM

Quote from: Gordo on December 28, 2014, 06:07:19 AM
Who knows if this song wasn't just "the beginning of a beautiful friendship"...

A famous composer, a young lady who's his fan, a sexy gift. This kind of uncertainty has always been the source of all historical novels. :)

There, you see? You should write a novella, it could be the basis for the first great Haydn film! :) Although id The Girl in Rose didn't make it, what would? ???

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on December 28, 2014, 07:27:34 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 28, 2014, 06:12:13 AM
There, you see? You should write a novella, it could be the basis for the first great Haydn film! :) Although id The Girl in Rose didn't make it, what would? ???

8)

Few days ago I started reading a biography of Bach titled La verdadera vida de Johann Sebastian Bach (The True Life of Johann Sebastian Bach), a German book translated into Spanish. And I have frequently recalled your own essays on Haydn because Klaus Eidam has written his biography - many times - simply reinterpreting some well known or documented facts, but left unexplained by other authors just because they are not interested in contextual explanations or details of real life in times of the composer, and prefer (simply) to guide their works by general theories or canonical images about him.

Eidam says that his guiding principle to write this book has been one summarized by Goethe:

QuoteThere remains no doubt these days that world history has from time to time to be rewritten. This requirement does not arise, however, because many occurrences are rediscovered, but because new views emerge; because the contemporary of a progressive age is led to standpoints which provide new prospects of the past and permit it to be evaluated in a new manner.

I think this is quite your own position, isn't it? Although I know you're not interested in Bach, I think the Eidam's book is highly interesting in terms of interpretative proceedings (Hermeneutics to use a big word). :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 28, 2014, 07:45:54 AM

Quote from: Gordo on December 28, 2014, 07:27:34 AM
Few days ago I started reading a biography of Bach titled La verdadera vida de Johann Sebastian Bach (The True Life of Johann Sebastian Bach), a German book translated into Spanish. And I have frequently recalled your own essays on Haydn because Klaus Eidam has written his biography - many times - simply reinterpreting some well known or documented facts, but left unexplained by other authors just because they are not interested in contextual explanations or details of real life in times of the composer, and prefer (simply) to guide their works by general theories or canonical images about him.

Eidam says that his guiding principle to write this book has been one summarized by Goethe:

I think this is quite your own position, isn't it? Although I know you're not interested in Bach, I think the Eidam's book is highly interesting in terms of interpretative proceedings (Hermeneutics to use a big word). :)

I DO take that position, perhaps not because I am an iconoclast (although I may be), but because my curiosity about things is not always of the big things which have preoccupied others in the past. I always look for little details which may be deemed unimportant and see how they might show a bigger picture. Sometimes it is successful, sometimes not, but it helps satisfy my desire to know things which are not in the mainstream.

Hermeneutics. Indeed. A sure sign I would be over my head soon. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on December 28, 2014, 07:58:28 AM

Sounds like this Haydn fellow was amiable.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 28, 2014, 07:59:57 AM

Quote from: Ken B on December 28, 2014, 07:58:28 AM
Sounds like this Haydn fellow was amiable.

Nah, probably just legend-building... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on December 28, 2014, 06:25:57 PM

It took me 5 1/2 CDs to find it, but I did run into what seem to be intonation problems in the Festetics box. The cellist seemed to hit a rough spot in Op. 20/6. Either that or Haydn was experimenting with atonal music well before the Second Viennese School.
But so far nothing else. At the moment, I have Op. 33 playing.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 28, 2014, 07:30:38 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 28, 2014, 06:25:57 PM
It took me 5 1/2 CDs to find it, but I did run into what seem to be intonation problems in the Festetics box. The cellist seemed to hit a rough spot in Op. 20/6. Either that or Haydn was experimenting with atonal music well before the Second Viennese School.
But so far nothing else. At the moment, I have Op. 33 playing.

Well, that's a pretty good ratio. I can't imagine a set that large with absolutely pitch-perfect playing end-to-end! You aren't saying yet; are you enjoying it? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on December 28, 2014, 07:39:28 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 28, 2014, 07:30:38 PM
Well, that's a pretty good ratio. I can't imagine a set that large with absolutely pitch-perfect playing end-to-end! You aren't saying yet; are you enjoying it? :)

8)

You are implying it is possible to not enjoy music by Haydn. :P
Seriously, I am satisfied with what I have heard, but it keeps hitting me as being a tad too restrained in places. But I have 11 CDs to go....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 29, 2014, 04:50:01 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 28, 2014, 07:39:28 PM
You are implying it is possible to not enjoy music by Haydn. :P
Seriously, I am satisfied with what I have heard, but it keeps hitting me as being a tad too restrained in places. But I have 11 CDs to go....

Well, I've been told... ;)

This is good, the first time I've heard that particular critique about anything by them. It just shows they aren't OTT. I think I'll join you, Jeffrey. You are up to, what Op 50? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 29, 2014, 04:42:03 PM

Nice to have a week off, although coming to an end soon. I was able to get an essay down on... um paper, though. If you have an interest in sacred music, you might want to have a look. Haydn didn't wait until he was an old man to write fine masses!

You need to go to church, pilgrim (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/12/1782-the-music-part-3-.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on December 29, 2014, 06:23:52 PM

The Private Pleasure of Prince Esterhazy

(http://ecstatic.textalk.se/shop/17115/art15/h9138/4579138-origpic-65c3e3.jpg)

Sometimes I wonder if people is totally unaware of double meaning in some titles and images. ::) :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 29, 2014, 07:13:30 PM

Quote from: Gordo on December 29, 2014, 06:23:52 PM
The Private Pleasure of Prince Esterhazy

(http://ecstatic.textalk.se/shop/17115/art15/h9138/4579138-origpic-65c3e3.jpg)

Sometimes I wonder if people is totally unaware of double meaning in some titles and images. ::) :D

:D

Oh, I don't think everyone was totally unaware! :)

Good disk though, one of my more favored baryton ones. A private pleasure, perhaps... ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on December 29, 2014, 10:52:41 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 29, 2014, 04:42:03 PM
Nice to have a week off, although coming to an end soon. I was able to get an essay down on... um paper, though. If you have an interest in sacred music, you might want to have a look. Haydn didn't wait until he was an old man to write fine masses!

You need to go to church, pilgrim (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/12/1782-the-music-part-3-.html)

Thanks!
8)

A very enjoyable read, thanks! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 01, 2015, 04:04:22 PM

Quote from: Que on December 29, 2014, 10:52:41 PM
A very enjoyable read, thanks! :)

Thanks, Que, I appreciate it! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 01, 2015, 04:07:58 PM

Hard to believe I used to be sort of intimidated by opera. Now I find it to be a treat! Haydn's operas are so underrated it is hard to believe. I take a look at that particular issue and why it might be in this essay, and fill in some background on the superb Orlando Paladino while I'm at it. Hope you enjoy it!

Have at you! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/01/1782-the-music-part-4-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 01, 2015, 04:31:19 PM

Ah, I have that Waldmann translation. Got it in college.
My favorite version of Orlando is the Ariosto based story in The Complete Enchanter by Pratt and DeCamp.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 01, 2015, 05:27:13 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 01, 2015, 04:31:19 PM
Ah, I have that Waldmann translation. Got it in college.
My favorite version of Orlando is the Ariosto based story in The Complete Enchanter by Pratt and DeCamp.

Cool. I haven't read that Pratt & DeCamp. Readily available?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on January 01, 2015, 05:39:25 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 01, 2015, 04:31:19 PM
Ah, I have that Waldmann translation. Got it in college.
My favorite version of Orlando is the Ariosto based story in The Complete Enchanter by Pratt and DeCamp.

Intriguing. I just ordered a copy of CE. Orlando is one of the epic poems I have not read, and suspect I never will. But I liked deCamp when I was a SF reader.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 01, 2015, 06:09:55 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 01, 2015, 05:27:13 PM
Cool. I haven't read that Pratt & DeCamp. Readily available?

8)

This seems to be the most complete compendium:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Mathematics-Magic-Sprague-Camp/dp/1886778655/ref=pd_sim_b_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=11AV8QZJRQSVMM3PCYSS

Quote from: Ken B on January 01, 2015, 05:39:25 PM
Intriguing. I just ordered a copy of CE. Orlando is one of the epic poems I have not read, and suspect I never will. But I liked deCamp when I was a SF reader.

Ariosto is exactly what Gurn says of him. And from what I have seen of you here, exactly up your alley.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on January 01, 2015, 06:27:49 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 01, 2015, 06:09:55 PM
This seems to be the most complete compendium:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Mathematics-Magic-Sprague-Camp/dp/1886778655/ref=pd_sim_b_3?ie=UTF8&refRID=11AV8QZJRQSVMM3PCYSS

Ariosto is exactly what Gurn says of him. And from what I have seen of you here, exactly up your alley.

I am tempted now I admit. OF has been on my to read list for over 30 years ... but it never quite made the cut. :-\

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on January 05, 2015, 04:16:23 PM

Lots of very interesting Haydn on YouTube. For example, this performance

Haydn Piano Concerto No 11 D major Badura Skoda, Bruggen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulmMucPqW9w

Two musicians whose performances are always worth a listen.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 05, 2015, 04:47:06 PM

Quote from: Old Listener on January 05, 2015, 04:16:23 PM
Lots of very interesting Haydn on YouTube. For example, this performance

Haydn Piano Concerto No 11 D major Badura-Skoda, Brüggen
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulmMucPqW9w

Two musicians whose performances are always worth a listen.

Yes, a very nice performance. I wonder who the band is? And if this is B-S's famous Bösendorfer Imperial? If one must listen to a modern piano, that would be the one to listen to! :)

Thanks for posting the link, OL.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 05, 2015, 04:59:05 PM

OK, just had to wait til the end:

Orchestre Svizzera-Italiana from Lugano. Heard of them, never heard them (before). Very nice. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on January 05, 2015, 07:36:19 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 05, 2015, 04:47:06 PM
Yes, a very nice performance. I wonder who the band is? And if this is B-S's famous Bösendorfer Imperial? If one must listen to a modern piano, that would be the one to listen to! :)

Thanks for posting the link, OL.

8)

Lovely performance, indeed.

Thanks, Old Listener!

Unfortunately, I read the message written by that lourak613. What a jerk! Totally deprived of any musical sense.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 06, 2015, 12:21:15 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 01, 2015, 04:07:58 PM
Hard to believe I used to be sort of intimidated by opera. Now I find it to be a treat! Haydn's operas are so underrated it is hard to believe. I take a look at that particular issue and why it might be in this essay, and fill in some background on the superb Orlando Paladino while I'm at it. Hope you enjoy it!

Have at you! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/01/1782-the-music-part-4-.html)

Thanks,
8)

If I were hard-pressed to pick the best essay in the series, this would be my choice. Bravo!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 06, 2015, 12:31:38 AM

This isn´t bad at all, all things considered.

https://www.youtube.com/v/qnnLHzSKvEk

Wait for the encore. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 06, 2015, 04:13:46 AM

Quote from: Gordo on January 05, 2015, 07:36:19 PM
Lovely performance, indeed.

Thanks, Old Listener!

Unfortunately, I read the message written by that lourak613. What a jerk! Totally deprived of any musical sense.

Yes, I ignored it to avoid spitting on my monitor. What a git! ::)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 06, 2015, 04:14:49 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 06, 2015, 12:21:15 AM
If I were hard-pressed to pick the best essay in the series, this would be my choice. Bravo!

Thank you very kindly, Andrei. I have to say, I enjoyed that one both writing, and later, reading. Good topic, of course... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on January 06, 2015, 08:47:07 AM

Of the keyboard concerti I have only a few (the famous D major with the "fillers" offered by Pletnev's and Staier's discs). I am considering the twofers with Schornsheim and Koopman. Any comments or preferences for one or the other? Or different suggestions?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 06, 2015, 10:35:56 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on January 06, 2015, 08:47:07 AM
Of the keyboard concerti I have only a few (the famous D major with the "fillers" offered by Pletnev's and Staier's discs). I am considering the twofers with Schornsheim and Koopman. Any comments or preferences for one or the other? Or different suggestions?

I really like the Schornsheim double. She plays a variety of appropriate instruments with a great band, and as always, she plays them well. Koopman does too, of course, but he plays it as a harpsichord concerto, which may or may not be appropriate, hard to say. I just prefer the Schornsheim. Actually, of course, you should have both in order to get Koopman's excellent concertinos.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on January 06, 2015, 12:48:35 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on January 06, 2015, 08:47:07 AM
Of the keyboard concerti I have only a few (the famous D major with the "fillers" offered by Pletnev's and Staier's discs). I am considering the twofers with Schornsheim and Koopman. Any comments or preferences for one or the other? Or different suggestions?

Beneditti Michelangeli. Sv. Richter. But honestly, Pletnev is really outstanding with these.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on January 09, 2015, 04:01:18 AM

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on March 21, 2014, 01:02:42 PM
Thanks for all these comments re 98 and the harpsichord. I understand that the solo is a joke, I just think it would be funner if the harpsichord was dutifully tinkling at points in the work and then let rip in the solo, almost like a last blast for the orchestral continuo.

Actually, I think that is the case in most (newer) recordings I have heard. I would have to check in detail, but I think the harpsichord is completely missing (no solo at all) in some historical ones (e.g. Fricsay, probably Scherchen, both from the early 50s), is suddenly conjured up out of thin air for the solo in others (Szell, a few years later), but dutifully tinkles along already in Jochum's Dresden recording (late 60s?) and certainly in newer ones like Brüggen's or Harnoncourts. For whatever reason I do not have as many recordings of #98 as of some other London symphonies, though, so this is of course only anecdotal.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on January 09, 2015, 04:05:30 AM

Thanks for the replies! I am not really interested enough in more recordings of the famous D major by famous pianists, as I am quite happy with Pletnev, Argerich, Staier and probably another two or so I forgot about.
I certainly appreciate the information that Koopman's and Schornsheim's sets are only overlapping in some works. For some reason I had not even been aware of this and naively assumed that they would be mostly the same pieces. So if there is not an obvious alternative for the "concertini"/divertimenti, I'll probably get both eventually...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 09, 2015, 04:06:16 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 06, 2015, 10:35:56 AM
I really like the Schornsheim double. She plays a variety of appropriate instruments with a great band, and as always, she plays them well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 10, 2015, 09:59:47 AM

1783 was a quiet year overall, but no year for Haydn was entirely without an event or two. This year, Joseph Kraus stopped by for a visit, and that's not all. See what I discovered;

Kraus & The Princess (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/01/1783-the-year.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 10, 2015, 12:20:30 PM

Hmm. Wikipedia has a little article which heavily implies that Mozart and Haydn probably first met in December 1783. Which would mean that Kraus met Haydn before Mozart did, and so would have been "the first genius" Haydn met.

Or, to reverse it, Haydn's comment is circumstantial evidence that he did not meet Mozart before late 1783.

The Wikipedia link is..
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haydn_and_Mozart

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on January 10, 2015, 12:52:31 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 10, 2015, 09:59:47 AM
1783 was a quiet year overall, but no year for Haydn was entirely without an event or two. This year, Joseph Kraus stopped by for a visit, and that's not all. See what I discovered;

Kraus & The Princess (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/01/1783-the-year.html)

Thanks,
8)

Thanks, Gurn. It's an interesting essay, especially what you say about the restrictive image of Haydn as a sort of servant-composer, as opposed (I guess) to a freelance composer, like it's supposed composers were from Mozart onwards. Your essay also leads to rethink, as you have been claiming, how important was opera in Haydn's everyday work, and how it should maybe be reevaluated the position of his operas in the general context of his output. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 10, 2015, 12:55:46 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 10, 2015, 12:20:30 PM
Hmm. Wikipedia has a little article which heavily implies that Mozart and Haydn probably first met in December 1783. Which would mean that Kraus met Haydn before Mozart did, and so would have been "the first genius" Haydn met.

Or, to reverse it, Haydn's comment is circumstantial evidence that he did not meet Mozart before late 1783.

The Wikipedia link is..
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haydn_and_Mozart

Yes, it is pretty much a guess when they met, since it is undocumented. They both went to the same salons, like the Greiner one, and Greiner daughter Caroline Pichler discusses them in her autobiography, although the time frame isn't nailed down. It has also been speculated, with good reason, that Haydn was present with the Duke and Duchess at Joseph II's piano duel between Mozart and Clementi, which was on Christmas Eve 1781. Which in and of itself doesn't mean they met, only that Haydn had seen Mozart play the piano. The problem as I see it is there is little reason for any document to note such a meeting.

However, I am perfectly willing for it to have been whenever it was. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 10, 2015, 01:01:30 PM

Quote from: Gordo on January 10, 2015, 12:52:31 PM
Thanks, Gurn. It's an interesting essay, especially what you say about the restrictive image of Haydn as a sort of servant-composer, as opposed (I guess) to a freelance composer, like it's supposed composers were from Mozart onwards. Your essay also leads to rethink, as you have been claiming, how important was opera in Haydn's everyday work, and how it should maybe be reevaluated the position of his operas in the general context of his output. :)

Thanks, Gordo. Yes, that sums it up; not freelance enough, I'm afraid. :-\ It appears to me as an early example of people not applying linearity to history, as we see elsewhere. "He worked for the Prince, thus these works which we would otherwise enjoy are the result of servility, thus we condemn them".

The more I read about the opera business, the more I can understand how dominating and all-consuming of time it must have been. This in itself makes one marvel that Haydn composed as long as he did before totally burning out! :o

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on January 10, 2015, 01:25:54 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 10, 2015, 01:01:30 PM
Thanks, Gordo. Yes, that sums it up; not freelance enough, I'm afraid. :-\ It appears to me as an early example of people not applying linearity to history, as we see elsewhere. "He worked for the Prince, thus these works which we would otherwise enjoy are the result of servility, thus we condemn them".

The more I read about the opera business, the more I can understand how dominating and all-consuming of time it must have been. This in itself makes one marvel that Haydn composed as long as he did before totally burning out! :o

8)

I totally agree.

BTW, I also liked what Kraus wrote in his diary, not the customary reference to Haydn's good nature, but about his relation with money. I think there is an interesting theme here: why Haydn seemed always needed of money? After all, he seems quite conservative in money issues, not like, say, Mozart, who was a complete mess in financial matters.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 10, 2015, 01:39:36 PM

Quote from: Gordo on January 10, 2015, 01:25:54 PM
I totally agree.

BTW, I also liked what Kraus wrote in his diary, not the customary reference to Haydn's good nature, but about his relation with money. I think there is an interesting theme here: why Haydn seemed always needed of money? After all, he seems quite conservative in money issues, not like, say, Mozart, who was a complete mess in financial matters.

He was married to a woman who, if she had at least one failing of note, it was her profligacy in money matters. I have been derelict in failing to mention that before... :(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on January 10, 2015, 03:17:29 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 10, 2015, 01:39:36 PM
He was married to a woman who, if she had at least one failing of note, it was her profligacy in money matters. I have been derelict in failing to mention that before... :(

8)

Yes it could be a factor. Apparently, he also cared greatly for his nieces and nephews, and in general for his extended family.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on January 17, 2015, 10:38:10 AM

A reference to Haydn's symphony No. 2 prompted me to listen to the recording by Derek Solomans and L'Estro Armonico. The sound of the period instruments seemed just right for the music. I've had that feeling before about this group; in symphonies no. 39, 45, 48 and others, their sound seems to enhance the feeling of the music in a way most other groups' recordings do not. I don't know whether that sound would seem as appropriate for the Paris or London symphonies.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 17, 2015, 12:44:06 PM

Quote from: Old Listener on January 17, 2015, 10:38:10 AM
A reference to Haydn's symphony No. 2 prompted me to listen to the recording by Derek Solomans and L'Estro Armonico. The sound of the period instruments seemed just right for the music. I've had that feeling before about this group; in symphonies no. 39, 45, 48 and others, their sound seems to enhance the feeling of the music in a way most other groups' recordings do not. I don't know whether that sound would seem as appropriate for the Paris or London symphonies.

I know just what you mean, it is a difficult feeling to describe, but the sense of 'rightness' is clearly there. I think L'Estro Armonico would have had to retool for symphonies after 1775 or so, even if only to accommodate the larger groups Haydn was writing for. I think that Il Giardino is going to run into that same issue when they get past a few more disks. They jump around with their choices, much like Solomons did (1, 39 & 49 on volume 1), but it will be hard to picture them doing #12 and #82 with the same setup. I'm looking forward to seeing what their solution might be. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 17, 2015, 01:11:52 PM

I like Haydn's cello concerto in D, it is a quintessential Classic Era work, hard on the cellist without sounding like it. Not everyone always has liked it though, and I looked a bit at the reception and history of it in this week's essay. Welcome to read and discuss.

Master of my Kraft... (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/01/1783-the-music-part-1-.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 20, 2015, 05:33:38 AM

I sent this to Gurn off-line, as I was having trouble reaching GMG this morning ...

At the Goya exhibit at the MFA, we gazed upon this portrait. The Duke of Alba (a title acquired from his wife) and Marquess of Villafranca was an avid hunstman and amateur musician, hence his depiction here both wearing riding boots, and nonchalantly leaning on an early fortepiano and holding an imprint of "Papa."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 20, 2015, 06:01:36 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 20, 2015, 05:33:38 AM
I sent this to Gurn off-line, as I was having trouble reaching GMG this morning ...

At the Goya exhibit at the MFA, we gazed upon this portrait. The Duke of Alba (a title acquired from his wife) and Marquess of Villafranca was an avid hunstman and amateur musician, hence his depiction here both wearing riding boots, and nonchalantly leaning on an early fortepiano and holding an imprint of "Papa."

That's such a fine painting, I saw an old B&W picture of it once, much nicer in color. It does give an indication of how widespread his popularity was in his own time. Thanks, Karl! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 20, 2015, 06:06:51 AM

It was a wonderful exhibit, and this portrait was one of the high points.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 20, 2015, 06:12:20 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 20, 2015, 05:33:38 AM
The Duke of Alba (a title acquired from his wife) and Marquess of Villafranca was an avid hunstman and amateur musician,

Unlike Haydn, who was a professional musician and an avid fisherman. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 20, 2015, 07:34:09 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 20, 2015, 06:06:51 AM
It was a wonderful exhibit, and this portrait was one of the high points.

Note that the music is called "Four Songs with accompaniment of Fortepiano", it is an unauthorized pirated ripoff copy... :D

Alba was quite a famous collector of music and books. His library, unfortunately burned to the ground a few years after his death. It is well known, however. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 20, 2015, 07:35:47 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 20, 2015, 06:12:20 AM
Unlike Haydn, who was a professional musician and an avid fisherman. :D

Actually, he loved to hunt, but not from horseback. He was a shootist. So was Mozart (shooting, not hunting). Isn't that an odd bit of trivia? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: ritter on January 20, 2015, 09:32:03 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 20, 2015, 05:33:38 AM
...
At the Goya exhibit at the MFA, we gazed upon this portrait. The Duke of Alba (a title acquired from his wife) and Marquess of Villafranca was an avid hunstman and amateur musician, hence his depiction here both wearing riding boots, and nonchalantly leaning on an early fortepiano and holding an imprint of "Papa."

That is one stunning portrait :). Thanks for sharing!

According to the information provided by the Prado Museum in Madrid, the score the Duke is holding might be "VI Lieder beim Clavier zu Singen. Die Musik ist von Herrn Joseph Haydn", published by Artaria in Vienna (Hob. XXVIa: 13-24), from 1784, and reissued in 1794, or perhaps the "VI canzonettas" in English (Hob.XXVIa: 25-30), from 1794, on poems by Anne Hunter. The Prado says that the reference to "Herrn Haydn" only appeared in scores published by Artaria.

The Duke also was the recipient of two string quartets, as part of an agreement between Haydn and the Countess of Benavente. Apparently, it's not quite clear which quartets these actually were.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on January 23, 2015, 06:35:36 AM

Is that a glissando I hear in the finale of Baryton Trio No. 46?! Happens a few times...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 23, 2015, 02:34:57 PM

Quote from: EigenUser on January 23, 2015, 06:35:36 AM
Is that a glissando I hear in the finale of Baryton Trio No. 46?! Happens a few times...

Well, I don't know the defined parameters of a glissando, but it is certainly a slide of one sort or another. Sounds pretty cool, eh! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on January 23, 2015, 03:58:58 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 23, 2015, 02:34:57 PM
Well, I don't know the defined parameters of a glissando, but it is certainly a slide of one sort or another. Sounds pretty cool, eh! :)

8)

Yeah! I couldn't quite tell if it was just a fast chromatic run or a legit glissando. Unfortunately, the score is not on IMSLP (or anywhere else) so I can't see how it is notated.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 23, 2015, 04:01:24 PM

Quote from: EigenUser on January 23, 2015, 03:58:58 PM
Yeah! I couldn't quite tell if it was just a fast chromatic run or a legit glissando. Unfortunately, the score is not on IMSLP (or anywhere else) so I can't see how it is notated.

No, I don't think anyone could be expected to play that fast! It has to be a slide. Technically, especially back then, it could have been one of a dozen; you're right, no score here either. Pity, really... :(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 24, 2015, 02:23:11 PM

I took a look, this week, at Haydn's wedding gift to the young Princess Marie. It is surprising how some things come to pay you back tenfold down the road. Have a look if you will.

BFF's (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/01/1783-the-music-part-2-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on January 27, 2015, 12:41:50 PM

I enjoy Lili Kraus's Mozart and Beethoven. I haven't found much of her Haydn. I liked this one on Youtube

Lili Kraus plays Haydn Sonata in E flat major Hob.XVI 49
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3G-vHDIwYI

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 27, 2015, 01:11:49 PM

Quote from: Old Listener on January 27, 2015, 12:41:50 PM
I enjoy Lili Kraus's Mozart and Beethoven. I haven't found much of her Haydn. I liked this one on Youtube

Lili Kraus plays Haydn Sonata in E flat major Hob.XVI 49
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3G-vHDIwYI

I really like her playing style. Not so much the sound of her piano, but she can't help that. I suppose my ears are trained to expect something different. Her ornaments are very nice though. Thanks!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 28, 2015, 09:35:37 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 24, 2015, 02:23:11 PM
I took a look, this week, at Haydn's wedding gift to the young Princess Marie. It is surprising how some things come to pay you back tenfold down the road. Have a look if you will.

BFF's (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/01/1783-the-music-part-2-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Excellent, and informative, read, Gurn. So, were they friends with benefits? ;D

I'll be listening to those Sonatas after dinner 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2015, 10:04:43 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 28, 2015, 09:35:37 AM
Excellent, and informative, read, Gurn. So, were they friends with benefits? ;D

I'll be listening to those Sonatas after dinner 8)

Sarge

Thanks, Sarge.

:D I bet not. Although, down the road, her husband did turn out to be an all-time leching legend. By then, Haydn was too old for that stuff though.

Great, enjoy them. Tell me what you think of that 'folk-like tune'. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 29, 2015, 11:45:11 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on January 29, 2015, 11:01:19 AM
Hello all - I've been away, but wanted to check in since I just discovered that a boxset of the Festetics Quartet complete set on period instruments was released.

[asin]B00NB8L0E8[/asin]

I am sure this news did not escape the Haus, but found it noteworthy enough to warrant a visit.

Hope all has been well.

Nice to see you again. Several folks who had been stymied by the difficulty of collecting that set in pieces were able to take advantage of that collection. Lots easier than some of us had it! Just as worthwhile though.

Hope you aren't too much a stranger,
Cheers,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on January 29, 2015, 12:57:34 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 29, 2015, 11:45:11 AM
Nice to see you again. Several folks who had been stymied by the difficulty of collecting that set in pieces were able to take advantage of that collection. Lots easier than some of us had it! Just as worthwhile though.

BRO had some of the individual CD sets cheap some years ago. That got me hooked and my stubborn streak kept me going as finding the remaining sets got harder (and pricier!)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 29, 2015, 01:05:27 PM

Quote from: Old Listener on January 29, 2015, 12:57:34 PM
BRO had some of the individual CD sets cheap some years ago. That got me hooked and my stubborn streak kept me going as finding the remaining sets got harder (and pricier!)

In 2010 I made a vow to finally nab them all. It took me 8 months, and all told cost me around $200 since an average box was going for $30 or so. And this was after the release of the digipaks! :o :o

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on January 29, 2015, 11:46:41 PM

In 2010 you were probably too late. There were at least two periods when they were reasonably priced at some sellers: When Arcana went out of business for while because Michel Bernstein had died (I think around 2006) and a few years later when the digipaks came back, usually priced as two for one, I think. I have all separate volumes but two (71/74 in the older case, the rest digipaks) and I do not think I payed more than 15-20 EUR for any 2-disc-set, frequently less. But I am quite sure I had all of these except op.50 before 2009 when I bought the latter when the midprice digipaks returned.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on January 30, 2015, 01:08:36 PM

These posts provided a reason to listen to the Festetics' Op. 33 No. 6. Seems a natural, easy to like interpretation.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 30, 2015, 02:41:27 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on January 29, 2015, 11:46:41 PM
In 2010 you were probably too late. There were at least two periods when they were reasonably priced at some sellers: When Arcana went out of business for while because Michel Bernstein had died (I think around 2006) and a few years later when the digipaks came back, usually priced as two for one, I think. I have all separate volumes but two (71/74 in the older case, the rest digipaks) and I do not think I payed more than 15-20 EUR for any 2-disc-set, frequently less. But I am quite sure I had all of these except op.50 before 2009 when I bought the latter when the midprice digipaks returned.

I didn't believe the new digipaks would essentially sell out over here in just a few months. Well under a year for most issues. I ended up getting some from England, and 2 from Canada, as well as what I could find on eBay. I already had the chubbies of 9, 17 & 71/74, and so the rest are digipaks. I ended up happy, but now, of course, the one deal box looks like the way to go!

Quote from: Old Listener on January 30, 2015, 01:08:36 PM
These posts provided a reason to listen to the Festetics' Op. 33 No. 6. Seems a natural, easy to like interpretation.

Yes, easy pick there. I've always liked their very laid back style. Like no one is smacking them over the ear if they ever relax a little. It works for me, too! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: EigenUser on February 01, 2015, 06:29:13 AM

I forgot to say -- I finished the Hob. XI's last week! Good stuff. I got the odd idea of writing something for Baryton and ondes-Martinot...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 01, 2015, 11:18:32 AM

Quote from: EigenUser on February 01, 2015, 06:29:13 AM
I forgot to say -- I finished the Hob. XI's last week! Good stuff. I got the odd idea of writing something for Baryton and ondes-Martinot...

That's a major accomplishment! And the other would certainly be one too! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 01, 2015, 11:21:09 AM

Seems odd now to look back to the days when I was totally intimidated by opera. I actually enjoy it now! :o

This week I looked at Haydn's final opera for Eszterháza and his first opera seria, which were coincidentally the same work. Hope you enjoy the results.

Armida: Now that's a drama queen! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/02/1783-the-music-part-3-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on February 03, 2015, 03:35:32 AM

I had a first listen today to Symphony No.88, from the Kuijken/La Petite Band set I picked up 5-6 months ago.

[asin]B00000J2PW[/asin]

My ears were rather taken aback on the first listen this morning. I honestly don't know whether that's because the sound is THAT different from the Kuijken/Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment set of the 'Paris' symphonies, or because it's actually been 2 or 3 months since I finished the 'Paris' set and I've forgotten what the sound was like.

Whatever it was, though, after 3 or 4 listens I'd completely adjusted and was perfectly happy with it.

One of the things, specifically, was that the harpsichord leapt out at me. I looked back at this thread and when I started the 'Paris' set I specifically mentioned that I didn't notice the harpsichord much. Mind you, by this afternoon I was back to not noticing the harpsichord in no.88 either!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on February 07, 2015, 04:17:12 PM

I'm listening to selections from a box set of Haydn "name" symphonies by the CPE Bach Chamber Orchestra conducted by Hartmut Haenchen. Not HIP but a modern chamber orchestra.

[asin]B0002MNOJU[/asin]

I've had this set for several years and continue to enjoy listening to individual performances.

Right now, I'm listening to No. 43. Good recording quality and good performance.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 07, 2015, 04:19:23 PM

Quote from: Old Listener on February 07, 2015, 04:17:12 PM
I'm listening to selections from a box set of Haydn "name" symphonies by the CPE Bach Chamber Orchestra conducted by Hartmut Haenchen. Not HIP but a modern chamber orchestra.

[asin]http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002MNOJU/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1[/asin]

I've had this set for several years and continue to enjoy listening to individual performances.

Right now, I'm listening to No. 43. Good recording quality and good performance.

And a darned fine symphony to round it all out. I have a disk or two by those players; not Haydn, Mozart, I think. I recall greatly liking their style. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on February 07, 2015, 04:21:14 PM

I fixed the Haenchen link so it should work now.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 07, 2015, 05:00:55 PM

Almost hard to imagine all the stuff going on in 1784. I barely scratched the surface and still have a modest novella! :o :o You might find some of it interesting, I did!

Take that, CPE Bach! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/02/1784-the-year.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on February 08, 2015, 02:17:27 AM

First listen to symphony no.89 today. It's giving me some recollections of Beethoven for some reason - although of course, it would be more accurate to say that Beethoven gave me some occasional recollections of Haydn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on February 10, 2015, 09:51:51 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 07, 2015, 05:00:55 PM
Almost hard to imagine all the stuff going on in 1784. I barely scratched the surface and still have a modest novella! :o :o You might find some of it interesting, I did!

Take that, CPE Bach! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/02/1784-the-year.html)

I enjoy each of your articles on Haydn's life. They add a sense of the real person who worked for decades applying his talent to satisfy his employer and his own creative sense.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 11, 2015, 04:18:19 AM

Quote from: Old Listener on February 10, 2015, 09:51:51 PM
I enjoy each of your articles on Haydn's life. They add a sense of the real person who worked for decades applying his talent to satisfy his employer and his own creative sense.

Very kind of you to say. I'm delighted you enjoy it as I do; to see the real person behind all that great music! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 11, 2015, 04:20:12 AM

Quote from: orfeo on February 08, 2015, 02:17:27 AM
First listen to symphony no.89 today. It's giving me some recollections of Beethoven for some reason - although of course, it would be more accurate to say that Beethoven gave me some occasional recollections of Haydn.

When Beethoven said "I learned nothing from Haydn", I suspect he 'doth protest too much". Maybe he didn't even realize how much he learned! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 11, 2015, 04:42:42 AM

Beethoven was a brat. A fine composer, no argument; but a brat.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 11, 2015, 04:50:59 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 11, 2015, 04:42:42 AM
Beethoven was a brat. A fine composer, no argument; but a brat.

I can see him, Ries and Czerny standing on the street corner wearing leathers, smoking cigarettes and kicking road apples under the feet of unsuspecting aristocrats... >:D Of course, the young Marlon Brando would be Beethoven, James Dean would be Ries... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 11, 2015, 04:55:55 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on February 11, 2015, 04:50:25 AM
I am not sure at what stage in Beethoven's career that quote was made but I suspect during his mature to late period. If my guess is accurate, then it is understandable how he could say that, i.e. feeling that he had traveled a long distance from his years under Haydn's tutelage, Haydn's influence was rather small. From all accounts I've read, Haydn was not very engaged in teaching Beethoven.

No, actually it was rather early times, IIRC, while Haydn was still alive. In later years he revered Haydn, when he no longer feared competition from him. In fact, that situation was resolved around 1805 when it became painfully apparent that Haydn debilities precluded any further chance of him composing again. It was all good then.

As for teaching, as with everything, it is a far more complicated thing than just engagement. I am planning an essay on just that one topic when the time comes, too long to go into here (especially since I have to go to work now! :) ).

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 11, 2015, 05:33:36 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on February 11, 2015, 05:00:20 AM
Thanks for the info. I had second thoughts about that post which is why i removed it.

:)

Yeah, I pulled the trigger too quick, since I was on the spot. So it goes. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on February 11, 2015, 07:29:03 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 11, 2015, 04:42:42 AM
Beethoven was a brat. A fine composer, no argument; but a brat.

Maybe not as much as it would seem from one comment taken out of context.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 11, 2015, 07:45:51 AM

Well, his musical reputation is completely intact, in any event, and deservedly so.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 11, 2015, 07:46:14 AM

Even as a brat, he was never a patch on Boulez 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on February 11, 2015, 08:04:20 AM

It seems that Beethoven was "technically" right because the actual lessons with Haydn were not successful (because Haydn was to busy). But the reason he proclaimed loudly that he had never learned *anything* from Haydn was probably that he wanted to appear as youthful irascible genius (which he actually was anyway). Of course, he had learned a lot from Haydn's COMPOSITIONS, if not from doing counterpoint exercises with the old man.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 11, 2015, 08:33:51 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on February 11, 2015, 08:04:20 AM
It seems that Beethoven was "technically" right because the actual lessons with Haydn were not successful (because Haydn was to busy). But the reason he proclaimed loudly that he had never learned *anything* from Haydn was probably that he wanted to appear as youthful irascible genius (which he actually was anyway). Of course, he had learned a lot from Haydn's COMPOSITIONS, if not from doing counterpoint exercises with the old man.

I completely agree with this. You will find though, in virtually any Beethoven-oriented biography dating back to the mid 19th century and ever since, that authors have willfully misinterpreted this statement and used it prima facie to demonstrate that Haydn was no match for our young revolutionary genius. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 11, 2015, 08:35:21 AM

Brats 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 11, 2015, 08:35:56 AM

Quote from: Pat B on February 11, 2015, 07:29:03 AM
Maybe not as much as it would seem from one comment taken out of context.

One of a host, as you will see.

It is indisputable that Beethoven was a brat, to put it nicely. It is no big deal, no one (still living) holds it against him, certainly not me. I rather admire him for it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 11, 2015, 08:36:47 AM

I wouldn't have LvB any other way; a most colorful figure in music history.

The brat 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 12, 2015, 10:48:33 AM

Great typo in the very first page (in inglese) of the liner notes to the DRD complete symphonies box:

QuoteNearly four years separate the first symphony written by the 25-year-old Haydn as kapellmeister to Count Morzin in the Czech provinces from his last contribution to the genre, which had its first performance in 1795 in a wildly-acclaimed concert given in the metropolis of London.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 12, 2015, 12:26:08 PM

His smoke could be descried from as far away as Sevastopol ....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 12, 2015, 12:41:04 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on February 12, 2015, 11:42:29 AM
Only four years, and 100+ symphonies later? Busy man ...

The dude was almost as productive as Havergal Brian.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 14, 2015, 10:33:58 AM

I'm still in a funk over the poor recording history of the 76-81 symphonies. But I didn't let that deter me this week, when I took a look at the latter three. Hard to realize he isn't writing for Eszterháza any more. Anyway, have a look if you'd like.

For the world beyond (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/02/1784-the-music-part-1-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on February 14, 2015, 04:36:06 PM

Yes, I seem to remember working out that, even with modern instruments, this was a natural grouping of symphonies (or 2 natural groupings) that was very difficult to find on disc.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 14, 2015, 04:45:12 PM

Quote from: orfeo on February 14, 2015, 04:36:06 PM
Yes, I seem to remember working out that, even with modern instruments, this was a natural grouping of symphonies (or 2 natural groupings) that was very difficult to find on disc.

I haven't run the gamut of modern recordings, but I think you would have to buy one of the complete cycles to find all 6 of them. I use Fischer, not just because I have it, but I also like it pretty well. Gotta have PI for horns and oboes though... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on February 14, 2015, 07:00:07 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 14, 2015, 10:33:58 AM
I'm still in a funk over the poor recording history of the 76-81 symphonies. But I didn't let that deter me this week, when I took a look at the latter three. Hard to realize he isn't writing for Eszterháza any more. Anyway, have a look if you'd like.

For the world beyond (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/02/1784-the-music-part-1-.html)

Thanks,
8)

"The finale...is downright amusing" ;D
Wonderful, Gurn. No. 80 is a fantastic piece, been my favorite symphony from Haydn for a while now. It is a shame its not as represented as other works, I mean do we really need any more Military Symphony recording? :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on February 14, 2015, 09:13:51 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 14, 2015, 07:00:07 PM
"The finale...is downright amusing" ;D
Wonderful, Gurn. No. 80 is a fantastic piece, been my favorite symphony from Haydn for a while now. It is a shame its not as represented as other works, I mean do we really need any more Military Symphony recording? :P

There is a cheaper version of the Golz/Freiberg Baroque CD of Sym. 49 and 80.

[asin]B00K1Q3UZK[/asin]

I had been waiting for the original version to get cheaper.

---
There is a Freiberg Baroque concert recording of Sym. 78 with Petra Mullejans conducting around on the internet. I listened today and continue to like it. I can't remember where I found it.

I don't think that the situation with Sym. 80 recordings is so bad. Orpheus CO, Glover / London Mozart players and Adam Fischer/ AH Haydn Orchestra are all in my rotation.

For 81, there is Orpheus, an energetic Blum and Fischer. There is a Hogwood / AAM video on Youtube.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on February 14, 2015, 11:56:03 PM

I agree that 76-81 are neglected, but 80 far less so. I recently got the Orpheus CD with 53,73 and 79 and while pretty good it's not as good as their #80 and I am somewhat tired of the squeaky clean but somewhat bland style of the ensemble, so I probably will not bother with the two remaining discs of their Haydn I have not heard yet (60/91 and 78/102). I actually got rid of their 48/49 because I vastly preferred the PI recordings (like Solomons and Pinnock). And Harnoncourt is sometimes a bit slow but far more color- and characterful in 53 and 73.

As I wrote somewhere above I think some of Fischer's best work is the disc with 76-78. It's been a while I listened to his 79-81 and I seem to recall some substandard playing in either 79 or 81 so I am certainly keeping the Orpheus for thoses pieces (I think I liked them better in 81 than 79 but I not all that fond of 79 as piece I guess).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on February 15, 2015, 05:50:11 AM

Other stuff I got recently:
- The Schuppanzigh qt disc with opp.54/1, 74/3 and 20/2. This is good but for some reason I do not love it as much as I expected to. Might be that I became somewhat unused to period string qt sounds...
- The harpsichord concerti and concertini/divertimenti with Koopman on a Philips 2fer. I have to admit that the divertimenti seem to me quite unessential and not something one had to go out of one's way for.
- jpc.de had the Haenssler box with the piano sonatas by Ekaterina Derzhavina for EUR 20 and I couldn't resist. This was praised in some quarters as the best modern instrument complete recording. I am working my way through it and it seems a steal for that price!

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Joseph-Haydn-1732-1809-S%E4mtliche-Klaviersonaten/hnum/3386171

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 15, 2015, 06:18:01 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on February 14, 2015, 07:00:07 PM
"The finale...is downright amusing" ;D
Wonderful, Gurn. No. 80 is a fantastic piece, been my favorite symphony from Haydn for a while now. It is a shame its not as represented as other works, I mean do we really need any more Military Symphony recording? :P

Thanks, Greg. I am grateful to be writing these essays sometimes, because I do some serious hard listening and hear things I never did before, like those off beat syncopations in the 1st violins. It's a hoot! :)

Well, that's always the hard thing to explain to record companies; yes, a Military Symphony disk always sells well, and yes, we all still like that one, but there are only so many possible interpretations available. How about starting a new set of interpretations with these works. You can start a path, what a rare opportunity! ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 15, 2015, 06:25:15 AM

Quote from: Old Listener on February 14, 2015, 09:13:51 PM
There is a cheaper version of the Golz/Freiberg Baroque CD of Sym. 49 and 80.

[asin]B00K1Q3UZK[/asin]

I had been waiting for the original version to get cheaper.

---
There is a Freiberg Baroque concert recording of Sym. 78 with Petra Mullejans conducting around on the internet. I listened today and continue to like it. I can't remember where I found it.

I don't think that the situation with Sym. 80 recordings is so bad. Orpheus CO, Glover / London Mozart players and Adam Fischer/ AH Haydn Orchestra are all in my rotation.

For 81, there is Orpheus, an energetic Blum and Fischer. There is a Hogwood / AAM video on Youtube.

When I got the one I used there, back in 2010, it was remaindered at BRO for $4.99. In fact, I got every disk in that HM 'Haydn 2009' set that uses PI (Queyras, Staier, Freiburg X 3, Spering's 'Cantatas', the double of the keyboard trios etc.) for that price each. One of my great buys ever!

Good to see they hve re-released it too. Those 'Musique Abord' disks are a lifesaver for rare repertoire!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 15, 2015, 06:29:39 AM

Quote from: Old Listener on February 14, 2015, 09:13:51 PM
---
There is a Freiberg Baroque concert recording of Sym. 78 with Petra Mullejans conducting around on the internet. I listened today and continue to like it. I can't remember where I found it.

I don't think that the situation with Sym. 80 recordings is so bad. Orpheus CO, Glover / London Mozart players and Adam Fischer/ AH Haydn Orchestra are all in my rotation.

For 81, there is Orpheus, an energetic Blum and Fischer. There is a Hogwood / AAM video on Youtube.

Yes, someone here (you, yes?) kindly pointed me to the Hogwood 79 & 81 videos, I watched them again just yesterday in fact.

But even with the bootlegs, MI's, one-off's etc out there, it is still fair to say these works are unjustifiably not well served. I like that Glover/LMP version, BTW, I used that one (as my primary) before I got the Freiburg. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 15, 2015, 06:35:31 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on February 14, 2015, 11:56:03 PM
I agree that 76-81 are neglected, but 80 far less so. I recently got the Orpheus CD with 53,73 and 79 and while pretty good it's not as good as their #80 and I am somewhat tired of the squeaky clean but somewhat bland style of the ensemble, so I probably will not bother with the two remaining discs of their Haydn I have not heard yet (60/91 and 78/102). I actually got rid of their 48/49 because I vastly preferred the PI recordings (like Solomons and Pinnock). And Harnoncourt is sometimes a bit slow but far more color- and characterful in 53 and 73.

As I wrote somewhere above I think some of Fischer's best work is the disc with 76-78. It's been a while I listened to his 79-81 and I seem to recall some substandard playing in either 79 or 81 so I am certainly keeping the Orpheus for thoses pieces (I think I liked them better in 81 than 79 but I not all that fond of 79 as piece I guess).

Before I sank irretrievably into PI, I had all of those Orpheus disks, also all their Mozart recordings (divertimentos and serenades, mainly) and was happy enough with them. I think your 'squeaky clean' description fit them to a 'T', and I have grown to prefer down and dirty. I have put myself in a position with Haydn recordings that I don't have to settle for anything now, if I don't have every PI recording ever made, it is because I don't know it exists. That said, these few symphonies are the nexus between the 'have's' and the 'have not's' in recordings... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 15, 2015, 06:52:11 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on February 11, 2015, 08:04:20 AM
It seems that Beethoven was "technically" right because the actual lessons with Haydn were not successful (because Haydn was to busy). But the reason he proclaimed loudly that he had never learned *anything* from Haydn was probably that he wanted to appear as youthful irascible genius (which he actually was anyway). Of course, he had learned a lot from Haydn's COMPOSITIONS, if not from doing counterpoint exercises with the old man.

I totally agree: it's a well thought opinion.

At some point, it recalls this controversial idea of George Bernard Shaw from Man and Superman: "He who can, does. He who cannot, teaches."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 15, 2015, 07:01:49 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on February 15, 2015, 05:50:11 AM
- jpc.de had the Haenssler box with the piano sonatas by Ekaterina Derzhavina for EUR 20 and I couldn't resist. This was praised in some quarters as the best modern instrument complete recording. I am working my way through it and it seems a steal for that price!

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Joseph-Haydn-1732-1809-S%E4mtliche-Klaviersonaten/hnum/3386171

I concur again: IMO, the best complete cycle on modern piano. I love the touch of this lady and her decisions about the pedal.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on February 15, 2015, 07:12:25 AM

On the symphonyshare site we once had a little Haydn 80 festival. Someone uploaded unpublished recordings from
Walter Weller in 1983, Peter Guelke in 1987, Jonathan Cohen in 2009 and Christian Zacharias in 2011. I remember how much fun it was comparing these, and I remember being really impressed by Peter Guelke, who doesn't seem to have recorded very much before or since.

Apart from that, there are tremendous 80s from Nicholas Kraemer and from Scherchen of course.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on February 15, 2015, 07:28:31 AM

Quote from: Gordo on February 15, 2015, 07:01:49 AM
I concur again: IMO, the best complete cycle on modern piano. I love the touch of this lady and her decisions about the pedal.

Have you heard Jenö Jandó? I haven't but I've been so impressed by his Schubert and Bartok recently that I was meanng to listen to some of his Haydn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on February 15, 2015, 07:39:20 AM

Marriner could also sometimes described as "squeaky clean" but I think he offers usually more flair than the Orpheus (I still like some of his "Paris" set a lot). With some pieces as 79-81 the alternatives are so few and far between that the technically brilliant playing of the Orpheus is something to be valued. But for the remaining ones I feel pretty sure that I already own alternative recordings I prefer.

With Kraemer I had one BBC? disc (live) with modern instruments. This included 80 but I apparently got rid of it for some reason before my last move, probably because I clearly preferred others I already had. Maybe I should have kept it but I must have been less than impressed with the whole thing (there are so few recordings of 67 so this would also have been a reason to keep it).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 15, 2015, 10:17:40 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on February 15, 2015, 07:28:31 AM
Have you heard Jenö Jandó? I haven't but I've been so impressed by his Schubert and Bartok recently that I was meanng to listen to some of his Haydn.

Yes, I have heard three disks from his Haydn cycle. And he's that good and consistent as usual. I'd say that Derzhavina is a bit more HIP influenced and with a higher degree of intimacy, whatever this means. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 16, 2015, 07:04:27 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 14, 2015, 10:33:58 AM
I'm still in a funk over the poor recording history of the 76-81 symphonies. But I didn't let that deter me this week, when I took a look at the latter three. Hard to realize he isn't writing for Eszterháza any more. Anyway, have a look if you'd like.

For the world beyond (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/02/1784-the-music-part-1-.html)

Thanks,
8)

I want to visit (revisit?) these symphonies and re-read your post . . . I should have spelled it straitened financial circs., but perhaps straightened is an alternative spelling?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 16, 2015, 07:47:20 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 16, 2015, 07:04:27 AM
I want to visit (revisit?) these symphonies and re-read your post . . . I should have spelled it straitened financial circs., but perhaps straightened is an alternative spelling?

No, if I had written it myself I would have used 'straitened', but I was quoting (via copy and paste) someone else who actually said 'straightened', and I am ethically loathe to correct someone else's spelling in a quote situation. I should have put a [sic] after it though... :-\

However, other than that, will you re-listen? Curious if it overcomes the snow for you. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 16, 2015, 09:11:03 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 16, 2015, 07:47:20 AM
No, if I had written it myself I would have used 'straitened', but I was quoting (via copy and paste) someone else who actually said 'straightened', and I am ethically loathe to correct someone else's spelling in a quote situation. I should have put a [sic] after it though... :-\

However, other than that, will you re-listen? Curious if it overcomes the snow for you. :)

8)

I thought that probably you were faithfully transcribing another's spelling.

After some more chipping away at my Sanctus, those symphonies are my first recreational listening priority!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on February 16, 2015, 04:38:16 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 15, 2015, 06:29:39 AM
Yes, someone here (you, yes?) kindly pointed me to the Hogwood 79 & 81 videos, I watched them again just yesterday in fact.

But even with the bootlegs, MI's, one-off's etc out there, it is still fair to say these works are unjustifiably not well served. I like that Glover/LMP version, BTW, I used that one (as my primary) before I got the Freiburg. :)

8)

Yes, I pointed them out. Another one (from YouTube I think)

Haydn- Symphony no. 80 in D minor, Hob. I-80 - Les Arts Florissants

You might like this too (SymphonyShare I think.)

   Jordi Savall / Austro-Hungarian Haydn Philharmonic

   01-04   Haydn, Sinfonie No. 78 C minor

   05-08   Haydn, Sinfonie No. 77 B flat major

   09-12   Haydn, Sinfonie No. 76 E flat major

Haydnsaal in the Esterhazy Palace in Eisenstadt (Austria)

September 12, 2009

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on February 16, 2015, 05:55:59 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on February 15, 2015, 07:39:20 AM
Marriner could also sometimes described as "squeaky clean" but I think he offers usually more flair than the Orpheus (I still like some of his "Paris" set a lot). With some pieces as 79-81 the alternatives are so few and far between that the technically brilliant playing of the Orpheus is something to be valued. But for the remaining ones I feel pretty sure that I already own alternative recordings I prefer.

I'm considerably more positive about Orpheus than you and Gurn are in these symphonies. The strings and especially the lower strings bring a rhythmic drive that I think is central to my enjoyment of these works.

About 79ii Gurn said

"The second movement contains its own little surprises. After an opening and development much in the mode of a Haydn Adagio, just what we expect, really, lovely tune, emphasis on the strings with a little accent here and there from the winds, Haydn suddenly shifts gears into a quite zippy little Allegretto!"

In the Orpheus performance, the really lovely tune seems quite innocent until about 1:10-2:00. (The more I hear this movement, the earlier I hear the pulse.) Then a nervous pulse in the strings appears as a just noticeable element. (Pulse might not be the right word.) I hear it and think that something is going to happen but I don't know what. Things go on with the pulse popping up and becoming more obvious until about 4:00 when things change entirely and the Allegretto starts. Orpheus play the first minute straight and introduce the nervous pulse with subtlety after that. They play the Allegretto with vigor and in a way that connects to what came before.

About 80i, Gurn said

"This minor key work opens like a Sturm und Drang throwback, stark and a bit harsh, with the winds and strings playing an octave apart with heavy drama. ..."

Orpheus bring power and nervous energy to this movement. It isn't just a faint echo of the earlier period; it really grabs you.

That power is welcome in 80 iv as well.

As I listened this time to 79 and 80, I thought about how Haydn would have reacted to hearing the Orpheus performances. I think he would have been delighted to have such a capable orchestra and delighted with the results they produced. They play so well! They understand the music! Nobody's drunk!

Of course, he might have the same reaction to a number of modern orchestras.

I'm giving my imagination a workout today.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on February 16, 2015, 06:01:07 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 15, 2015, 06:29:39 AM
Yes, someone here (you, yes?) kindly pointed me to the Hogwood 79 & 81 videos, I watched them again just yesterday in fact.

But even with the bootlegs, MI's, one-off's etc out there, it is still fair to say these works are unjustifiably not well served. I like that Glover/LMP version, BTW, I used that one (as my primary) before I got the Freiburg. :)

I like Glover's sense of Haydn style. Everything on the two AV CDs (80, 83, 84, 87,88, 89) is a winner for me. I was not taken by the Glover/LPO recordings of 102 and 104 that I purchased.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on February 17, 2015, 02:12:11 AM

I had my first listen to symphony No.90 today (Kuijken).

LOVED it! Could quickly become a favourite. The surprise in the finale is pure Haydn. Not having read the liner notes of the CD before listening, he completely fooled me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 17, 2015, 04:24:14 AM

Quote from: orfeo on February 17, 2015, 02:12:11 AM
I had my first listen to symphony No.90 today (Kuijken).

LOVED it! Could quickly become a favourite. The surprise in the finale is pure Haydn. Not having read the liner notes of the CD before listening, he completely fooled me.

:) Also one of MY faves, and greatly enjoy Kuijken doing it too. Nice Haydn can still surprise you after you have heard a lot of his stuff. That ending gets you every time! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 17, 2015, 05:22:51 AM

Quote from: Old Listener on February 16, 2015, 05:55:59 PM
I'm considerably more positive about Orpheus than you and Gurn are in these symphonies. The strings and especially the lower strings bring a rhythmic drive that I think is central to my enjoyment of these works.

The Orpheus are a fine outfit, and I feel they have served Haydn (among other composers) mighty well. I do not object to their musical hygiene at all, at all 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 17, 2015, 06:14:38 AM

Quote from: Old Listener on February 16, 2015, 05:55:59 PM
I'm considerably more positive about Orpheus than you and Gurn are in these symphonies. The strings and especially the lower strings bring a rhythmic drive that I think is central to my enjoyment of these works.

I'm not saying I dislike the OCO, just that they aren't my go-to band. For me, it is more about missing the sound of the PI's than in how the band conducts themselves. FBO in #80 have a sound which is just not reproducible on MI's, and really do make that stark and harsh part, well, stark and harsh. Which was what suggested those adjectives to me when I was writing, I guess. :)

My personal belief is that one needs to go with whatever band sells itself to you, because the music is all that counts and if it is OCO, or FBO, or BPO/Karajan, it's all the same piece of music. The music sells the band, not the other way around. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on February 17, 2015, 07:10:24 AM

I actually do like the Orpheus quite a bit in 79-81. And I went out of my way to acquire some of their discs at reasonable prices (for some reason they seem to oscillate between a handful or Euros or less and >20, for the last one I got I paid EUR 8 at German Ebay which was ok). My favorite is the disc with 22/63/80 and I would recommend this one to everyone except those strongly preferring PI.

But as I said, I am not so fond of their general style in Haydn anymore and in pieces better served on discs I tend to prefer other interpretations and will not go out of my way to get the last two discs I have not heard yet (60/91 and 78/102).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 17, 2015, 07:13:08 AM

This is the only program the Heidelberger Sinfoniker (the Hobbit Fey's band) has scheduled this year:

Joseph Haydn: Sinfonie Nr. 73 D-Dur ,,La Chasse"
Antonio Rosetti: Hornkonzert d-Moll
Joseph Haydn: Hornkonzert Nr. 1 D-Dur
Antonio Rosetti: Sinfonie D-Dur ,,La Chasse"
Soloist Wilhelm Bruns, Naturhorn

My mouth was watering until I saw the dreaded geschlossene Gesellschaft!. (Not open to the general public.) The two concerts at the Rokokotheater in the Schwetzinger Schloss are reserved for the Sparkasse bank >:(

I noticed something else disturbing on the orchestra's website. Fey didn't conduct the last concert (in November) due to illness. And he isn't conducting the above concert either. If there is something seriously wrong with him, I fear for the Hänssler Haydn cycle.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 17, 2015, 07:32:39 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 17, 2015, 07:13:08 AM
This is the only program the Heidelberger Sinfoniker (the Hobbit Fey's band) has scheduled this year:

Joseph Haydn: Sinfonie Nr. 73 D-Dur ,,La Chasse"
Antonio Rosetti: Hornkonzert d-Moll
Joseph Haydn: Hornkonzert Nr. 1 D-Dur
Antonio Rosetti: Sinfonie D-Dur ,,La Chasse"
Soloist Wilhelm Bruns, Naturhorn

My mouth was watering until I saw the dreaded geschlossene Gesellschaft!. (Not open to the general public.) The two concerts at the Rokokotheater in the Schwetzinger Schloss are reserved for the Sparkasse bank >:(

I noticed something else disturbing on the orchestra's website. Fey didn't conduct the last concert (in November) due to illness. And he isn't conducting the above concert either. If there is something seriously wrong with him, I fear for the Hänssler Haydn cycle.

Sarge

Great program; that IS mouth-watering! You should move a little of your money into this Spark-ass bank, they got it goin' on!

Fey is just a youngster, is he not? He should be able to shake off any minor indispositions. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 17, 2015, 07:38:37 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 17, 2015, 07:32:39 AM
Great program; that IS mouth-watering! You should move a little of your money into this Spark-ass bank, they got it goin' on!

Actually my bank is the Sparkasse...although a different branch. I don't know if the concert is for employees only, or employees and customers. I should investigate.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 17, 2015, 07:32:39 AM
Fey is just a youngster, is he not?

54 according to Wiki.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 17, 2015, 08:12:58 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 17, 2015, 07:38:37 AM

Actually my bank is the Sparkasse...although a different branch. I don't know if the concert is for employees only, or employees and customers. I should investigate.

54 according to Wiki.

Sarge

Yes, you should. Branches are insignificant, it's the tree that counts. :)

Well, see? Just a damned kid. He'll get better.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 18, 2015, 09:30:25 AM

I had forgotten that I had only paid $26 for this box. Winning!

[asin]B001NBS5NE[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 21, 2015, 01:20:16 PM

It has been quite a while since Haydn wrote any chamber music, with the exception of the Op 33 quartets. I was beginning to wonder. So imagine my delight when I stumbled up on this week's topic, new chamber music! Have a look, if you'd like.

Oh no, not a flute! :o (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/02/1784-the-music-part-2-.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on February 21, 2015, 01:26:22 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 21, 2015, 01:20:16 PM
It has been quite a while since Haydn wrote any chamber music. . .

Well over two hundred years, actually. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 21, 2015, 01:27:34 PM

Quote from: North Star on February 21, 2015, 01:26:22 PM
Well over two hundred years, actually. 8)

Yes, sorry, I don't live in real time, you know. I was still back in 1784... :-\

:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on February 21, 2015, 02:23:29 PM

Interesting. I'd heard about 3 flute trios in the piano trio sequence, I didn't know about these ones though.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 21, 2015, 02:34:39 PM

Quote from: orfeo on February 21, 2015, 02:23:29 PM
Interesting. I'd heard about 3 flute trios in the piano trio sequence, I didn't know about these ones though.

Cool, you made my day! 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on February 22, 2015, 12:03:57 AM

Are there recent and/or PI recordings of the three flute trios with *violin*?
(I don't mean the ones you just discussed but the three with piano from the early 1790s or so).

I am pretty sure I have the D major with Gilels and Kogan or Oistrakh on violin but the other ones I own only in the Brilliant box with flute.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2015, 07:15:23 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on February 22, 2015, 12:03:57 AM
Are there recent and/or PI recordings of the three flute trios with *violin*?
(I don't mean the ones you just discussed but the three with piano from the early 1790s or so).

I am pretty sure I have the D major with Gilels and Kogan or Oistrakh on violin but the other ones I own only in the Brilliant box with flute.

As for PI, if there are any, they are well hidden. And I have looked, believe me. As for anyone else, it will be one of the classics. Most certainly the BAT do all three with violin. That may be the only version on record. Certainly the only version I have.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on February 22, 2015, 08:03:27 AM

What about the Haydn-Trio Eisenstadt (modern Instruments)? Did they record those three?
I am just curious; while not being all that fond of the flute per se I have not problem with the original flute version and will certainly not get the whole BeauxArts box to get a violin version.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2015, 08:08:45 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on February 22, 2015, 08:03:27 AM
What about the Haydn-Trio Eisenstadt (modern Instruments)? Did they record those three?
I am just curious; while not being all that fond of the flute per se I have not problem with the original flute version and will certainly not get the whole BeauxArts box to get a violin version.

I asked Sonic Dave that some time ago, since he touts that set frequently, and he said they have a flute too. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 22, 2015, 08:18:17 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on February 22, 2015, 08:03:27 AM
What about the Haydn-Trio Eisenstadt (modern Instruments)? Did they record those three?

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2015, 08:08:45 AM
I asked Sonic Dave that some time ago, since he touts that set frequently, and he said they have a flute too. :-\

8)

No, they play Hob XV:15-17 with violin, not flute.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2015, 08:24:59 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 22, 2015, 08:18:17 AM
No, they play Hob XV:15-17 with violin, not flute.

Sarge

Hard to imagine Dave making a mistake, but your word is law with me Sarge. That's good though, so there are at least 2 versions on the violin then. I listened to the BAT version again this morning, it is so different to hear the flute part on a violin, almost disorienting!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 22, 2015, 08:32:48 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2015, 08:24:59 AM
Hard to imagine Dave making a mistake, but your word is law with me Sarge. That's good though, so there are at least 2 versions on the violin then. I listened to the BAT version again this morning, it is so different to hear the flute part on a violin, almost disorienting!

8)

To insure my memory wasn't failing, I'm listening to it now. Definitely violin. And nowhere in the liner notes or on the box is a flautist credited. Maybe Dave was talking about another group.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2015, 08:36:44 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 22, 2015, 08:32:48 AM
To insure my memory wasn't failing, I'm listening to it now. Definitely violin. And nowhere in the liner notes or on the box is a flautist credited. Maybe Dave was talking about another group.

Sarge

Probably so, I just always associate that box with him because he likes it so much. I did some search and I see that Gordo posted it was on violin also, and so it is becoming clear it is an age-related memory issue on my part. Mea culpa....

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 22, 2015, 08:39:19 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2015, 08:24:59 AMThat's good though, so there are at least 2 versions on the violin then. I listened to the BAT version again this morning, it is so different to hear the flute part on a violin, almost disorienting!

8)

I've never heard the original, flute, versions. Eisenstadt plays the violin versions and the three Flute Trios weren't included in Trio 1790 box.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 22, 2015, 08:44:32 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2015, 08:36:44 AM
Probably so, I just always associate that box with him because he likes it so much. I did some search and I see that Gordo posted it was on violin also, and so it is becoming clear it is an age-related memory issue on my part. Mea culpa....

8)

Well, this conversation has been a wonderful pretext to listen to this again:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/514x2p-5w8L._SS280.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2015, 08:50:19 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 22, 2015, 08:39:19 AM
I've never heard the original, flute, versions. Eisenstadt plays the violin versions and the three Flute Trios weren't included in Trio 1790 box.

Sarge

Well, you don't have to go far or pay millions for a very nice version:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn%20Camerata%20Koumlln%20Trios%20cover_zpstlz8qlz3.jpg)

Of course, you CAN go far and pay millions, but why would you? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 22, 2015, 08:50:53 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on February 22, 2015, 08:48:09 AM
Gordo, I forgot I also had that one.

;D

Thanks for the reminder.

Excellent!!!

It's a great disk. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2015, 08:55:34 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on February 22, 2015, 08:43:07 AM
I have the Christophe Coin recording, and like to hear the flute instead of the violin. There are only these three, and so many of the other, I prefer the flute.

[asin]B00COU07P2[/asin]

Which was the original instrumentation?

They both were. "For Flute or Violin"... :-\

Musically, it is said to be contoured for the flute specifically, more idiomatic for flute than violin. I wouldn't know about that, since I play neither.

That Cohen/Coin/ version is very fine. nice to see it re-released. I spent months and many $$$ for it. :(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 22, 2015, 08:56:20 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2015, 08:50:19 AM
Well, you don't have to go far or pay millions for a very nice version:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn%20Camerata%20Koumlln%20Trios%20cover_zpstlz8qlz3.jpg)

Of course, you CAN go far and pay millions, but why would you? :)

8)

Actually, I don't have it. And I need it, as the Camerata Köln is unsurpassable everywhere the flute is involved. Excellent reminder, amigo. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2015, 08:56:56 AM

Quote from: Gordo on February 22, 2015, 08:50:53 AM
Excellent!!!

It's a great disk. :)

Yes it is. It is the one which finally knocked the Concerto Köln from my personal top spot. Not by much though... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 22, 2015, 08:59:42 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2015, 08:55:34 AM
I spent months and many $$$ for it. :(

Of course, because in addition you need original covers, crazy Haydinisto! ;) :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2015, 09:00:17 AM

Quote from: Gordo on February 22, 2015, 08:56:20 AM
Actually, I don't have it. And I need it, as the Camerata Köln is unsurpassable everywhere the flute is involved. Excellent reminder, amigo. :)

Yes, they really are fine in the flute repertoire. Plus, I keep the cpo disk on the shelf with my Trio 1790 disks and they look like they go together. Sort of smooths over the omission of these from the 1790 set.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2015, 09:01:33 AM

Quote from: Gordo on February 22, 2015, 08:59:42 AM
Of course, because in addition you need original covers, crazy Haydinisto! ;) :D

Si, como no... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 22, 2015, 10:43:31 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2015, 08:50:19 AM
Well, you don't have to go far or pay millions for a very nice version:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn%20Camerata%20Koumlln%20Trios%20cover_zpstlz8qlz3.jpg)

Of course, you CAN go far and pay millions, but why would you? :)

8)

Unbelievably, it ain't available from JPC :o Amazon DE doesn't have it either :( The Cohen/Coin is available though, and not too expensive.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2015, 11:08:28 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 22, 2015, 10:43:31 AM
Unbelievably, it ain't available from JPC :o Amazon DE doesn't have it either :( The Cohen/Coin is available though, and not too expensive.

Sarge

OOP?? Damn! Too bad, fine disk. However, you won't go wrong with that Cohen/Coin either. I was so used to that being rare and expensive that I reflexively don't rec it! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2015, 11:23:10 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 21, 2015, 01:20:16 PM
It has been quite a while since Haydn wrote any chamber music, with the exception of the Op 33 quartets. I was beginning to wonder. So imagine my delight when I stumbled up on this week's topic, new chamber music! Have a look, if you'd like.

Oh no, not a flute! :o (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/02/1784-the-music-part-2-.html)

Thanks!
8)

Just a bump, lots of welcome discussion today!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 22, 2015, 03:50:36 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2015, 08:08:45 AM
I asked Sonic Dave that some time ago, since he touts that set frequently, and he said they have a flute too. :-\

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 22, 2015, 08:18:17 AM
No, they play Hob XV:15-17 with violin, not flute.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2015, 08:24:59 AM
Hard to imagine Dave making a mistake, but your word is law with me Sarge. That's good though, so there are at least 2 versions on the violin then. I listened to the BAT version again this morning, it is so different to hear the flute part on a violin, almost disorienting!

Hi Guys - coming in late to this conversation w/ my name coming up about a flute (YES - I still love wind music - ;)) - BUT, if I understand the question concerning the Piano Trios played by Haydn Trio Eisenstadt (8-CD box), the instruments used are piano, violin, & cello - cannot imagine that I would have even mentioned a flute in these recordings (but if Gurn finds an old post, I can't deny the fact - if so, would have been a mistake on my part).

In addition to some Haydn Flute Concertos, the two discs that I own of flute chamber works are shown below and believe have already been discussed - hope that I can now pass GO and not go to JAIL? ;) Dave

P.S. I'm doing this quickly so may be missing an important point - we're about to watch the Oscars and Susan has planned a snack dinner in the den (smoke trout, salmon, boiled shrimp, and some hot Greek spinach rolls + a bottle of the bubbly) - we've actually seen all but one of the movies nominated - a FIRST for me!

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-Bc3k66b/0/O/Haydn_WindWorks.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-xHFgwvt/0/O/Haydn_CPO1.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2015, 04:05:59 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 22, 2015, 03:50:36 PM
Hi Guys - coming in late to this conversation w/ my name coming up about a flute (YES - I still love wind music - ;)) - BUT, if I understand the question concerning the Piano Trios played by Haydn Trio Eisenstadt (8-CD box), the instruments used are piano, violin, & cello - cannot imagine that I would have even mentioned a flute in these recordings (but if Gurn finds an old post, I can't deny the fact - if so, would have been a mistake on my part).

In addition to some Haydn Flute Concertos, the two discs that I own of flute chamber works are shown below and believe have already been discussed - hope that I can now pass GO and not go to JAIL? ;) Dave

P.S. I'm doing this quickly so may be missing an important point - we're about to watch the Oscars and Susan has planned a snack dinner in the den (smoke trout, salmon, boiled shrimp, and some hot Greek spinach rolls + a bottle of the bubbly) - we've actually seen all but one of the movies nominated - a FIRST for me!

No worries, Dave. We've already attributed it to my occasional dementia. Although it is a hard memory to shake, as all the best imagined ones are. :D

For the 17th year in a row I haven't seen any of the nominated movies. Oh well.... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 22, 2015, 04:41:39 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2015, 04:05:59 PM
For the 17th year in a row I haven't seen any of the nominated movies. Oh well.... :-\

I have never considered the Oscars like a guide to watch or not a movie, but this time before the nominations I watched "Boyhood" and it's a true masterpiece. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2015, 04:56:20 PM

Quote from: Gordo on February 22, 2015, 04:41:39 PM
I have never considered the Oscars like a guide to watch or not a movie, but this time before the nominations I watched "Boyhood" and it's a true masterpiece. :)

About a year after the 2006 awards I saw The Departed because I always liked Marty Scorcese. Can't remember another since then...

I watch movies for escapism, not art.

A good Haydn movie would catch my eye though.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 22, 2015, 07:46:55 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2015, 04:05:59 PM
No worries, Dave. We've already attributed it to my occasional dementia. Although it is a hard memory to shake, as all the best imagined ones are. :D

For the 17th year in a row I haven't seen any of the nominated movies. Oh well.... :-\

Hi Gurn - well, I'm suffering from the same problem - ;) I'm assuming Haydn could have transcribed any of these piano trios to ones w/ flute and I've not even checked to see if the flute discs posted have the same Hob. numbers?

I've not watched the Oscars in years except since retirement when I've been able to go out and see these movies - the films up this year are pretty impressive, so enjoying the show (OF COURSE, except for the commercials and its length) - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on February 22, 2015, 11:32:31 PM

I think my new policy will be that a Haydn symphony is required to be part of every Monday morning. Had my first listen to Symphony No.91 this morning and it was a delight, put me in a great mood.

And if I get them all, it'll take 2 years before a repeat is required.

PS I saw Birdman on Saturday and thought it was excellent.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 23, 2015, 04:19:09 AM

Quote from: orfeo on February 22, 2015, 11:32:31 PM
I think my new policy will be that a Haydn symphony is required to be part of every Monday morning. Had my first listen to Symphony No.91 this morning and it was a delight, put me in a great mood.

And if I get them all, it'll take 2 years before a repeat is required.

PS I saw Birdman on Saturday and thought it was excellent.

Works for me. I have a 25 minute drive to work every day, just right. Today: #44 Excellent! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 23, 2015, 04:24:58 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2015, 04:56:20 PM
I watch movies for escapism, not art.

I have the same policy in disks, books and movies. I never search for art because art just happens. For instance, "Boyhood" is simply a collection of snapshots of different moments of the life of an ordinary American family; but, I think, it works out, and superbly, as high art. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 23, 2015, 04:45:10 AM

Quote from: Gordo on February 23, 2015, 04:24:58 AM
I have the same policy in disks, books and movies. I never search for art because art just happens. For instance, "Boyhood" is simply a collection of snapshots of different moments of the life of an ordinary American family; but, I think, it works out, and superbly, as high art. :)

Yes, that is serendipity of the best kind. I don't expect to duplicate that experience with The Italian Job or Ronin, yet I not only saw them, I sought them out because I knew what they offered. Vulgar pictures that make you want to drink beer, as Balakirev would have it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 23, 2015, 07:04:34 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 21, 2015, 01:27:34 PM
Yes, sorry, I don't live in real time, you know. I was still back in 1784... :-\

:D

8)

Yes: narrative liberty! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 23, 2015, 08:41:07 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on February 23, 2015, 07:04:34 AM
Yes: narrative liberty! :)

Total immersion. Method writing, so to say... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 23, 2015, 08:58:18 AM

Far out, daddy-o!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Kestrel on February 25, 2015, 09:09:42 AM

I hope this is ok to post this in this thread, I know Gurn will be interested.
The Haydn Society of GB, have raised funds for a Haydn Plaque to be erected in Great Pultney St. London, on the 24th of March this year.
I contributed to the cost also.

http://haydnsocietyofgb.co.uk/2015/01/haydn-plaque-to-be-unveiled-24-march-2015/

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 28, 2015, 08:59:42 AM

Quote from: Kestrel on February 25, 2015, 09:09:42 AM
I hope this is ok to post this in this thread, I know Gurn will be interested.
The Haydn Society of GB, have raised funds for a Haydn Plaque to be erected in Great Pultney St. London, on the 24th of March this year.
I contributed to the cost also.

http://haydnsocietyofgb.co.uk/2015/01/haydn-plaque-to-be-unveiled-24-march-2015/

Absolutely! Thanks to you. I got my coaster just two days ago. 0:)

The plaque was long overdue, and a gift from our generation to the future Haydnists who visit London. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 28, 2015, 09:05:16 AM

Well, I have been visiting the salons of Vienna, looking for new music. There are some new Lieder by Haydn, and a concerto played ala Hausmusik by that scamp Mozart. Have a look at what I turned up whilst visiting 1784...

Hausmusik for the big houses (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/02/1784-the-music-part-3-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on March 02, 2015, 08:24:06 PM

Gurn, I always feel that I understand a bit more about Haydn's life after reading one of your articles.

Something new I came across today that's going on my shopping list.

[asin]B00R8ILD1W[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 03, 2015, 12:07:32 AM

Quote from: Old Listener on March 02, 2015, 08:24:06 PM
Gurn, I always feel that I understand a bit more about Haydn's life after reading one of your articles.

Something new I came across today that's going on my shopping list.

The Hurwitzer gave it a "10" review: "Haydn lovers rejoice."

http://www.classicstoday.com/review/mcgegan-haydn-57-67-68/?search=1

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2015, 04:24:07 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 03, 2015, 12:07:32 AM
The Hurwitzer gave it a "10" review: "Haydn lovers rejoice."

http://www.classicstoday.com/review/mcgegan-haydn-57-67-68/?search=1

Quote from: Old Listener on March 02, 2015, 08:24:06 PM
Gurn, I always feel that I understand a bit more about Haydn's life after reading one of your articles.

Something new I came across today that's going on my shopping list.

[asin]B00R8ILD1W[/asin]

Thanks!

Gurn gives it a 10/10. Not only is it very nicely played, with great sound, but is also a long-awaited contribution to the rarely recorded works of the mid-1770's. An Amazon reviewer was whining because it wasn't London symphonies, something he was already familiar with. If I could find him, I would slap him! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on March 03, 2015, 04:37:11 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2015, 04:24:07 AM
An Amazon reviewer was whining because it wasn't London symphonies, something he was already familiar with. If I could find him, I would slap him! :D

Seriously! I just read the review. It even has "Of course, McGegan and his players have already done a number of the later and better-known Haydn symphonies, so I guess it's good to hear them in the less-well-known stuff, too."

Someone who can't quite figure out which parts of their review are about the performance and which parts are about the music being performed.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2015, 04:46:28 AM

Quote from: orfeo on March 03, 2015, 04:37:11 AM
Seriously! I just read the review. It even has "Of course, McGegan and his players have already done a number of the later and better-known Haydn symphonies, so I guess it's good to hear them in the less-well-known stuff, too."

Someone who can't quite figure out which parts of their review are about the performance and which parts are about the music being performed.

Just the sort of person the record companies love: "There, see? I told you 17 sets of 'London's' weren't enough!'

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on March 03, 2015, 05:31:38 AM

Is this a studio recording? There was one (BBC? Magazine?) disc with McGegan (or was it Kraemer?) with a few live recordings that was decent but not interesting enough for me to keep (partly due to non-ideal live sound, I seem to recall). Fey has comparably recently done a very good #57 but overall those three are certainly far more in need of another good recording than any "London" symphony...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2015, 05:43:51 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on March 03, 2015, 05:31:38 AM
Is this a studio recording? There was one (BBC? Magazine?) disc with McGegan (or was it Kraemer?) with a few live recordings that was decent but not interesting enough for me to keep (partly due to non-ideal live sound, I seem to recall). Fey has comparably recently done a very good #57 but overall those three are certainly far more in need of another good recording than any "London" symphony...

No, I believe it is live, but you would never know it. There is no audience noise that I can hear, and the acoustic of the venue is great!

McGegan's other CD, with 88, 101 & 104 may have been a culprit in that regard. I seem to recall they left in some applause at the end. Not so on this one though. In any case, with the first one, the playing and sound are so good the applause is hardly an issue. IIRC, it was a Grammy nominee. No indication of greatness, of course, but someone thought so. :) Especially since they publish on their own little label, not one of the majors who buy awards.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on March 03, 2015, 06:17:51 AM

Thanks; I was confused, I meant an entirely different (live) disc conducted by Nicholas Kraemer that I found not worth keeping (although I am not sure exactly why). I'll surely keep the new McGegan disc on my wishlist!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31E7bgDJAiL._SL500_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on March 03, 2015, 10:27:26 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2015, 04:24:07 AM
An Amazon reviewer was whining because it wasn't London symphonies, something he was already familiar with. If I could find him, I would slap him! :D

Maybe not slap, but this disc, filled with works I don't have, went right onto my wishlist, and their Paris-London selection probably never will.

I vote for them to tackle 79-81 next (I lack 78 too but don't know if they could squeeze it onto the disc). Between McGegan and Antonini there is hope!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2015, 10:57:28 AM

Quote from: Pat B on March 03, 2015, 10:27:26 AM
Maybe not slap, but this disc, filled with works I don't have, went right onto my wishlist, and their Paris-London selection probably never will.

I vote for them to tackle 79-81 next (I lack 78 too but don't know if they could squeeze it onto the disc). Between McGegan and Antonini there is hope!

I second and third that; motion carried!

I also chatted with Paul McCreesh about it, gave him a little nag he needed. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 08, 2015, 09:20:25 AM

1785 was one of the most interesting years so far. Lots going on, and names you know! Haydn joins a secret organization! It gets outlawed and he and Mozart are now on the run!! :o :D

Ok, it didn't go quite that far. But it was a near thing, dammit! Check and see;

Yes, but I don't build houses! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/03/1785-the-year-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 09, 2015, 08:30:28 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on March 09, 2015, 05:57:29 AM
A chamber arrangement of the London symphonies, performed on period instruments may not appeal to everyone; but I like it.

[asin]B00009NOX2[/asin]

They planned on recording all of them on three CDs, but never got beyond the first.

Here a 2 other fine disks:
[asin]B000MV98IM[/asin][asin]B0001AEVKY[/asin]

In a perfect world, this would give you all twelve, but alas... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 09, 2015, 11:01:11 AM

I also have this one by Florilegium, which I got for the cello concertos, but which also expands their Piano/Flute Sextet versions to include #104.

[asin]B000003UYX[/asin]

So, the symphonies available now, with duplicates struck off, are 93, 94, 98, 99, 100, 101 & 104. It seems to be typical with Haydn to not be able to get anything done... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 09, 2015, 02:54:53 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on March 09, 2015, 11:03:54 AM
Thanks for this information; you da' Haydn man.

:)

You're welcome. Must....make....Haydnistos....happy. :D

Not to push my luck, but this little gem has yet another performance of #94, and just a whole lot of excellent late Haydn.

[asin]B004I65DP4[/asin]

Since I play these arrangements in the identical manner as on this disk, that is, mixed up with other songs and chamber music, I was delighted to find how nicely this matched my own tastes. Cheap at twice the price! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 11, 2015, 06:26:41 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on March 11, 2015, 04:56:41 AM
I am sure this is not new information for the Haus, but I've been listening to a nice recording from Monica Huggett:

[asin]B00004SVIA[/asin]

Aside from the use of "Gypsies" (Romani or Roma would have been preferred), a totally enjoyable listening experience.

They are just being authentic. No one in the whole world, including themselves, called the Roms anything but Gipsies until recent times. That said, Haydn grew up hearing their music (Croats, actually, were a large part of the local population) and he incorporated some of their style into his best music. I have seen that disk, having all the Haydn music on it otherwise I held off buying it. Don't make me regret it! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on March 11, 2015, 07:02:56 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on March 11, 2015, 06:48:23 AM
This might be of interest to Sarge and other Hobbit-Haydn fans.

The Hobbit is about to be driven out of the Shire!

(Albeit in German)

Heidelberger Sinfoniker sind in ihrer Existenz gefährdet

Heidelberger Orchester muss ohne Chefdirigent Thomas Fey durchs Jahr kommen - Keine Erwähnung im Haushaltsentwurf der Stadt (http://www.rnz.de/kultur-tipps/kultur-regional_artikel,-Heidelberger-Sinfoniker-sind-in-ihrer-Existenz-gefaehrdet-_arid,76721.html)

Well, not quite. The Hobbit fell and is recovering. The Symphony gets no money... and the Haydn recordings fell through even earlier: http://www.rnz.de/kultur-tipps/kultur-regional_artikel,-Aus-fuer-Haydn-_arid,3263.html (http://www.rnz.de/kultur-tipps/kultur-regional_artikel,-Aus-fuer-Haydn-_arid,3263.html)

Apparently didn't sell well enough, so Hanssler nixed them. Bit short-sighted, it seems... though obviously I was not part of the negotiations. Hard to figure out who was being boneheaded. But wouldn't the label have had incentive to get to the finishing line? How are they going to market an incomplete Haydn Symphony Cycle?

Apparently Frieder Bernius will perform (and record?) some of the remaining symphonies while Fey is recovering from his fall... if it isn't Fey, I find that to be a very good choice, on paper.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 11, 2015, 07:29:04 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on March 11, 2015, 07:02:56 AM
Well, not quite. The Hobbit fell and is recovering. The Symphony gets no money... and the Haydn recordings fell through even earlier: http://www.rnz.de/kultur-tipps/kultur-regional_artikel,-Aus-fuer-Haydn-_arid,3263.html (http://www.rnz.de/kultur-tipps/kultur-regional_artikel,-Aus-fuer-Haydn-_arid,3263.html)

Apparently didn't sell well enough, so Hanssler nixed them. Bit short-sighted, it seems... though obviously I was not part of the negotiations. Hard to figure out who was being boneheaded. But wouldn't the label have had incentive to get to the finishing line? How are they going to market an incomplete Haydn Symphony Cycle?

Apparently Frieder Bernius will perform (and record?) some of the remaining symphonies while Fey is recovering from his fall... if it isn't Fey, I find that to be a very good choice, on paper.

As you say, yet another short-sighted business decision by a record label. I wonder now, exactly how many 'incomplete' Haydn cycles there are out there, symphony and otherwise? Dreadful behavior, even though I personally don't care as much about it as I did Hogwood and Goodman... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on March 11, 2015, 08:04:16 AM

That would really be a pity. I had thought that the power of Haenssler had precisely been that that label is making his money mainly with christian music and the classical division was more a personal love of the founder, CEO or whatever. Apparently this was not quite true...
I wonder if they were not somewhat naive that with several unfinished Haydn cycles around they would sell enough at single full priced discs (sometimes oddly coupled) appearing over a period of 15+ years.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 11, 2015, 08:22:10 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on March 11, 2015, 08:04:16 AM
That would really be a pity. I had thought that the power of Haenssler had precisely been that that label is making his money mainly with christian music and the classical division was more a personal love of the founder, CEO or whatever. Apparently this was not quite true...
I wonder if they were not somewhat naive that with several unfinished Haydn cycles around they would sell enough at single full priced discs (sometimes oddly coupled) appearing over a period of 15+ years.

I don't know the Hänssler story, but the second part of your post is exactly what my thoughts have been all along. Their disks are full-price point, and to consider selling the 32-34 disks in a full cycle is ambitious at best. I have similar concerns over the Haydn 2032 set by Il Giardino Armonico. 2032 is a long way off!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on March 11, 2015, 09:08:25 AM

I am not sure about the details but the original Hänssler (the publishing company has merged with others in 2007) is apparently a devout evangelical christian and originally focussed on christian literature and music (therefore Bach). And I think I read once that they made enough money with popular christian stuff (both music and books) that it was not so important whether the classical department was profitable. Maybe this changed after the fusion.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_H%C3%A4nssler_%281927%29

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 11, 2015, 10:21:28 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on March 11, 2015, 08:43:53 AM
Maybe they can just do 79-81 and call it a day.

;)

:D I'm good with that. I could make them a list; there are a few others in which Hogwood is the only recording available. I wonder if I could be a consultant for them? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 11, 2015, 10:23:05 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on March 11, 2015, 09:08:25 AM
I am not sure about the details but the original Hänssler (the publishing company has merged with others in 2007) is apparently a devout evangelical christian and originally focussed on christian literature and music (therefore Bach). And I think I read once that they made enough money with popular christian stuff (both music and books) that it was not so important whether the classical department was profitable. Maybe this changed after the fusion.

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_H%C3%A4nssler_%281927%29

I didn't know those existed outside of USA. :o :o Good for them if they have anyone subsidizing their Classics! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 12, 2015, 08:17:51 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 17, 2015, 07:13:08 AM
I noticed something else disturbing on the orchestra's website. Fey didn't conduct the last concert (in November) due to illness. And he isn't conducting the above concert either. If there is something seriously wrong with him, I fear for the Hänssler Haydn cycle.

Sarge

Quote from: jlaurson on March 11, 2015, 06:48:23 AM
This might be of interest to Sarge and other Hobbit-Haydn fans. The Hobbit is about to be driven out of the Shire!

Son of a bitch. I hate when I'm right :( Thank you for posting the link to the Rhein-Neckar-Zeitung article, Jens. It explains Fey's absence and why there are so few concerts by the Heidelberger Sinfoniker this year.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 12, 2015, 09:32:11 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 12, 2015, 08:17:51 AM
Son of a bitch. I hate when I'm right :( Thank you for posting the link to the Rhein-Neckar-Zeitung article, Jens. It explains Fey's absence and why there are so few concerts by the Heidelberger Sinfoniker this year.

Sarge

There goes any hope of hearing The Hobbit's take on Haydn's 80th, absolute bummer.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 12, 2015, 10:00:48 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on March 12, 2015, 09:32:11 AM
There goes any hope of hearing The Hobbit's take on Haydn's 80th, absolute bummer.

I know. At least he managed 98 (for you) and 99 (for me) before the plugged was pulled.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on March 12, 2015, 10:09:00 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 12, 2015, 10:00:48 AM
I know. At least he managed 98 (for you) and 99 (for me) before the plugged was pulled.

Sarge

This is true. It was fun while it lasted. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 12, 2015, 11:10:10 AM

A complete "Papa" cycle is perforce a communal (not to say institutional) undertaking.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on March 13, 2015, 08:26:28 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 09, 2015, 11:01:11 AM
I also have this one by Florilegium, which I got for the cello concertos, but which also expands their Piano/Flute Sextet versions to include #104.

[asin]B000003UYX[/asin]

I bought that CD for the cello concertos too. Still my favorite performances!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Hiker on March 14, 2015, 05:14:15 AM

This recently republished Gramophone article might be of interest: "How Can Anyone Not Like Haydn?" (http://www.gramophone.co.uk/feature/how-can-anyone-not-like-haydn).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 14, 2015, 05:41:50 AM

Quote from: Old Listener on March 13, 2015, 08:26:28 PM
I bought that CD for the cello concertos too. Still my favorite performances!

Well, they have some stout competition, but they are top shelf, no doubt!

On that line; I've been getting interested in Bruno Cocset lately, now that my primo uomo, Anner Bylsma, appears to have at least semi-retired. I wonder if we will be seeing some concertos from him? He is excellent in this disk;

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn%20Baryton%20Trios%20Ricercar%20cover_zpsv1uqhgpq.jpg)

so he knows Haydn-style. I worry, there are never enough great Baroque cellists around... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 14, 2015, 05:48:30 AM

Quote from: Hiker on March 14, 2015, 05:14:15 AM
This recently republished Gramophone article might be of interest: "How Can Anyone Not Like Haydn?" (http://www.gramophone.co.uk/feature/how-can-anyone-not-like-haydn).

Christ! Well, I haven't met one of those, pleased to say. And apparently inarticulate about why this should be so, since it is never given. We have certasinly had people here in discussions who, as they did with Mozart, felt that only late Haydn was worth their condescending efforts to listen to, but this is beyond that. More like me and Stockhausen... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Hiker on March 14, 2015, 05:57:40 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 14, 2015, 05:48:30 AM
Christ! Well, I haven't met one of those, pleased to say. And apparently inarticulate about why this should be so, since it is never given. We have certasinly had people here in discussions who, as they did with Mozart, felt that only late Haydn was worth their condescending efforts to listen to, but this is beyond that. More like me and Stockhausen... :-\

8)

You might prefer this one: "Haydn - The Poor Man's Mozart?" (http://www.gramophone.co.uk/feature/haydn-the-poor-man%E2%80%99s-mozart?pmtx=green-red&utm_expid=32540977-3.FNZqseMjTvyRLIewfMgTiA.1&utm_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gramophone.co.uk%2F%3Fpmtx%3Dorange-all) :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 14, 2015, 06:05:56 AM

Quote from: Hiker on March 14, 2015, 05:57:40 AM
You might prefer this one: "Haydn - The Poor Man's Mozart?" (http://www.gramophone.co.uk/feature/haydn-the-poor-man%E2%80%99s-mozart?pmtx=green-red&utm_expid=32540977-3.FNZqseMjTvyRLIewfMgTiA.1&utm_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gramophone.co.uk%2F%3Fpmtx%3Dorange-all) :)

Ah yes, Wigmore. I was bombarded with links to that on Twitter from all my Brit Buds. I like Wigmore, his little handbook is a trove of information. The points he makes about, for example, Haydn's modesty contributing to his future discounting are clearly right on the money. As I mentioned recently in one of my own essays, I have seen his statement about not being a virtuoso used to a priori dismiss any of his concertos from contention for being 'worthwhile', without even having a listen. He should regret ever having said he wasn't a virtuoso; that was career suicide by the 19th century!! ::)

I commend Wigmore's article to any non-Haydnist as food for thought, and his book to any Haydnisto as a compact, pretty factual reference. Thanks for the link. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 14, 2015, 06:35:27 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on March 14, 2015, 05:06:59 PM
:)

The thing I find amusing in all this is that the 2 composers he uses for bookends against what he doesn't like are 2 of my least favorite composers of all (although I can take Bach in small doses). This is why there is such a variety of music under the Big Top. One thing we share; I'm not much of a symphony fan either, I greatly prefer chamber music and small ensemble. See? Common ground! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 15, 2015, 09:20:26 AM

I hope you enjoy this week's magnum opus. Any failings at making it such are on me, not on Haydn, who took the first shot at changing the world of the symphony in 1785!

Taking Paris by Storm! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/03/1785-the-music-part-1-.html)

Enjoy!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 18, 2015, 09:25:00 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 15, 2015, 09:20:26 AM
I hope you enjoy this week's magnum opus. Any failings at making it such are on me, not on Haydn, who took the first shot at changing the world of the symphony in 1785!

Taking Paris by Storm! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/03/1785-the-music-part-1-.html)

Enjoy!
8)

That was an interesting read, Gurn. Joseph Bologne, Chevalier de Saint-Georges, what a fascinating character, musically and militarily. Do you have CD recommendations? I have these, waiting in the Amazon basket.

[asin]B000023ZNM[/asin]

[asin]B0044ZQ8LM[/asin]

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 18, 2015, 10:19:32 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 18, 2015, 09:25:00 AM
That was an interesting read, Gurn. Joseph Bologne, Chevalier de Saint-Georges, what a fascinating character, musically and militarily. Do you have CD recommendations? I have these, waiting in the Amazon basket.

Sarge

Thanks, Sarge. That one was pretty challenging for me, considering everyone knows the music (for a change!) :)

I have the 2 Naxos disks, they are very well done. I am seriously considering getting this DVD, since I like Tafelmusik a lot:

[asin]B0007UQ250[/asin]

It looks pretty interesting, combining a biography with performances. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on March 20, 2015, 11:36:11 PM

"[H]aydn's is an essentially optimistic, Apollonian art," says Richard Wigmore. Do you guys think that's true?

If it were true, I think it would be a limitation, reducing Haydn to a composer who's poetically at the same level as D'Andrieu. I only know about Haydn through performances, and the ones I appreciate most tend not to be as reductive as Wigmore's idea. Strangely one of the ones I like, Wigmore also likes - Jacobs's 91 - but I don't hear it as carefree or apollonian or optimistic.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on March 21, 2015, 01:29:43 AM

I think the characterization is not totally wrong but it does not imply a limitation. Overall, Haydn clearly is not a mad-cap "Dionysian" like Wagner (would we say the latter is similarly limited because of this) or a melancholic like Dowland or maybe Schubert (also I think the latter is more universal than that). But whereas his overall attitude and habit seems optimistic (as a man of his time) that did not keep him from writing "dark" or melancholy works or movements. Pieces like the "mourning" or "farewell" symphonies. I am not as fond as some others are of the "7 last words" but the feat to compose 7 (actually 8) slow movements lasting altogether more than an hour without becoming boring is extraordary, not only in relation to the otherwise more optimist and lively mood of Haydn and his time. Or the "chaos" at the beginning of the creation.
There are also some movements I find deeply melancholic, "world-weary", wistful, e.g. the slow movement from the symphony 104. (There are more and not restricted to late pieces.)

Overall, I find Haydn more universal in expression than quite a few rather famous composers (e.g. Wagner, Bruckner or Mahler), although I can agree with "apollinian" as a rough and fast characterization. And he is even more universal as far as musical wit, variety of forms and wealth of ideas goes, I think.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on March 21, 2015, 08:04:00 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on March 21, 2015, 01:29:43 AM
I think the characterization is not totally wrong but it does not imply a limitation. Overall, Haydn clearly is not a mad-cap "Dionysian" like Wagner (would we say the latter is similarly limited because of this) or a melancholic like Dowland or maybe Schubert (also I think the latter is more universal than that). But whereas his overall attitude and habit seems optimistic (as a man of his time) that did not keep him from writing "dark" or melancholy works or movements. Pieces like the "mourning" or "farewell" symphonies. I am not as fond as some others are of the "7 last words" but the feat to compose 7 (actually 8) slow movements lasting altogether more than an hour without becoming boring is extraordary, not only in relation to the otherwise more optimist and lively mood of Haydn and his time. Or the "chaos" at the beginning of the creation.
There are also some movements I find deeply melancholic, "world-weary", wistful, e.g. the slow movement from the symphony 104. (There are more and not restricted to late pieces.)

Overall, I find Haydn more universal in expression than quite a few rather famous composers (e.g. Wagner, Bruckner or Mahler), although I can agree with "apollinian" as a rough and fast characterization. And he is even more universal as far as musical wit, variety of forms and wealth of ideas goes, I think.

Just to be clear in case there's some further discussion of this, one online dictionary defined apollonian as "characterized by clarity, harmony, and restraint." I'm not sure it applies to the Haydn pieces which I think of as his best, like symphony 91 as played by Jacobs. They're too disorienting to be seen as "clear" and "restrained" doesn't seem right either.

For what it's worth, I think that things are a bit different with Dowland because his concept of melancholy was so very very complex. It doesn't correspond to any single emotion in our way of viewing things.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2015, 10:17:10 AM

This week I took a short look at a short work. The Opus 42 string quartet often gets steamrollered by its neighbors, but there is no justification for it. Have a look!

A little gem (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/03/1785-the-music-part-2-.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on March 21, 2015, 01:12:51 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2015, 10:17:10 AM
This week I took a short look at a short work. The Opus 42 string quartet often gets steamrollered by its neighbors, but there is no justification for it. Have a look!

A little gem (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/03/1785-the-music-part-2-.html)

Thanks!
8)

Clean and honestly written (I mean without hiding the assumption behind your conclusions).

As a brief listening guide, I don't need anymore. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2015, 01:30:55 PM

Quote from: Gordo on March 21, 2015, 01:12:51 PM
Clean and honestly written (I mean without hiding the assumption behind your conclusions).

As a brief listening guide, I don't need anymore. :)

Thank you, Gordo. Sometimes people make too much mystery where none should be. I would like to be correct, but if not, the music is still superb! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on March 21, 2015, 01:47:49 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2015, 01:30:55 PM
Thank you, Gordo. Sometimes people make too much mystery where none should be. I would like to be correct, but if not, the music is still superb! :)

8)

I think you are right that a look at the original letter would be nice, but remember FJH was dashing off a letter to the publisher, not documenting his works For The Ages To Come, so imprecision would be expected. Equally valid possibility is the Spanish works were notturno style works in three movements which had nothing to do with Op. 42, and are now completely lost. :'( But if he recycled the Spanish works for Vienna, why would he only do one, the presumed source of Op. 42? Might not the others be also lurking in the Hoboken catalog, unrecognized?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on March 21, 2015, 01:51:25 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2015, 01:30:55 PM
Thank you, Gordo. Sometimes people make too much mystery where none should be. I would like to be correct, but if not, the music is still superb! :)

8)

After a recent move, I just have a few disks at the new apartment; so I heard the Op. 42 performed by the Buchbergers.

I don't know if your essay helped them, but this time they sounded just superb. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2015, 02:18:24 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 21, 2015, 01:47:49 PM
I think you are right that a look at the original letter would be nice, but remember FJH was dashing off a letter to the publisher, not documenting his works For The Ages To Come, so imprecision would be expected. Equally valid possibility is the Spanish works were notturno style works in three movements which had nothing to do with Op. 42, and are now completely lost. :'( But if he recycled the Spanish works for Vienna, why would he only do one, the presumed source of Op. 42? Might not the others be also lurking in the Hoboken catalog, unrecognized?

Oh yes, nothing I said in that essay precludes the possibilites which you have put forward. Three movement quartets were by no means rare in the 1780's. In fact, they may have even been the norm. However, Haydn never wrote another, if, in fact, the Spanish set really were in three movements each. So they would have been one-off's for Haydn, who established four movements with his Op 9 in 1769 and never looked back.

I thought long about your other questions while I was researching this essay. I think Hoffmeister was publishing a series of single works rather than multi-work opuses. Note Mozart's K 499 which I included a mention of specifically to introduce that point. It is also Mozart's only single work quartet. But this is only a conclusion which I drew for myself, it isn't incumbent on anyone else to accept it. I searched long and hard for some clarification and couldn't find any. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2015, 02:19:50 PM

Quote from: Gordo on March 21, 2015, 01:51:25 PM
After a recent move, I just have a few disks at the new apartment; so I heard the Op. 42 performed by the Buchbergers.

I don't know if your essay helped them, but this time they sounded just superb. :)

I think it tends to slip by, as miniatures often will, and as a result we miss its beauties without notice unless we made a point of listening for them. I'm very pleased it earned a listen from you! 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on March 21, 2015, 07:34:08 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on March 20, 2015, 11:36:11 PM
"[H]aydn's is an essentially optimistic, Apollonian art," says Richard Wigmore. Do you guys think that's true?

If it were true, I think it would be a limitation, reducing Haydn to a composer who's poetically at the same level as D'Andrieu. I only know about Haydn through performances, and the ones I appreciate most tend not to be as reductive as Wigmore's idea. Strangely one of the ones I like, Wigmore also likes - Jacobs's 91 - but I don't hear it as carefree or apollonian or optimistic.

"Optimistic" and "Apollonian" - especially when characterised by "essentially" - are so broad as not to be limitation.

The alternative is to deny the fact that individual composers have any kind of personality at all.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on March 21, 2015, 10:50:45 PM

Quote from: orfeo on March 21, 2015, 07:34:08 PM
"Optimistic" and "Apollonian" - especially when characterised by "essentially" - are so broad as not to be limitation.

The alternative is to deny the fact that individual composers have any kind of personality at all.

For all I know, most, maybe nearly all, of Haydn's music is optimistic and apollonian. However, much of the best of his music poetically that I've heard is not well described by those two ideas. So I want to say that his contribution as poet in sound (rather than as a pioneer of forms) is not essentially apollonian.

Imagine someone saying that Mozart is essentially elegant or pretty, or that Bach is essentially cheerful. All those things would be to miss the meaning of their most important contributions to art - even though much of Mozart's popular second tier music is just elegant etc.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on March 21, 2015, 11:07:45 PM

I'm quite sure someone would say Mozart is elegant and not mean anything limiting by it.

I'm not interested in arguing about it with you further. Use words how you want to use them.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on March 21, 2015, 11:13:56 PM

Quote from: orfeo on March 21, 2015, 11:07:45 PM
I'm quite sure someone would say Mozart is elegant and not mean anything limiting by it.

I'm not interested in arguing about it with you further. Use words how you want to use them.

Oh dear!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on March 22, 2015, 01:52:45 AM

To his contemporaries, Haydns music was witty, noisy, unconventional, but also sublime. He was castigated by some critics for "breaking rules" around 1770 and it might be that the learned fugues of op.20 were partly written to show that he could also follow the rules of counterpoint. That the late oratorios try to emulate Handelian sublimity and seriousness seems obvious.

But already for Hoffmann writing in ca. 1810 Haydn, despite being recognized as a great and influential composer, is characterized as "pastoral", "innocent" (like written before the Fall) etc. While Mozart is recognized as having at least some "demonic" aspects, especially in Don Giovanni.
Of course, for many listeners later on, even Mozart was considered predominantly "apollinian", serene etc.

I do not find such labels all that helpful. I can agree that Haydn is predominantly "optimistic" - but so is Beethoven. Haydn's (and Mozart's) drama is mainly opera buffa (as Rosen has pointed out this influences also the pacing and rhetoric of instrumental music). That does not mean it is not serious. The love tangles of opera buffa may seem conceited, they still are closer to most people's everyday troubles than Rinaldo's or Idomeneo's predicaments.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on March 22, 2015, 02:18:07 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on March 22, 2015, 01:52:45 AM

But already for Hoffmann writing in ca. 1810 Haydn, despite being recognized as a great and influential composer, is characterized as "pastoral", "innocent" (like written before the Fall) etc.

This is an interesting feature of Haydn's reception -- it makes for a chasm between Haydn and Beethoven!!! Presumably there's a link between this idea and the "papa" stereotype which has influenced Haydn's reputation.

Ooooh. I've just had this strange feeling of déjà vu. Still, I think these questions about reception are interesting. Especially interesting that some musicians buck the trend -- Rosbaud for example, and Ranki. And then there are those mega-serious Haydn sonatas played by Levy and to some extent, Richter.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on March 22, 2015, 03:39:25 AM

Re: op.42. I think it is "Stücke" in the original. Which means "pieces" literally and seems to have been the usual expression back then. I think "Sätze" (movements) was not very common until a bit later. Even Beethoven sometimes still uses "Stücke". Which sounds too general and a little strange for a modern German speaker as well. We would refer to any piece of Musik as "Stück" or "Musikstück" but it is uncommon for a part of a larger piece, especially there is now the established use of "Satz" (literally "sentence").

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 22, 2015, 05:43:48 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on March 22, 2015, 03:39:25 AM
Re: op.42. I think it is "Stücke" in the original. Which means "pieces" literally and seems to have been the usual expression back then. I think "Sätze" (movements) was not very common until a bit later. Even Beethoven sometimes still uses "Stücke". Which sounds too general and a little strange for a modern German speaker as well. We would refer to any piece of Musik as "Stück" or "Musikstück" but it is uncommon for a part of a larger piece, especially there is now the established use of "Satz" (literally "sentence").

Thanks for your reply. You confirm my understandings of the words.

I have always understood 'Stücke' to mean, as Landon uses it, 'piece', to refer to a piece of 1 movement only, like Für Elise is often called a Pianostücke. And Hob. 15:39 - "5 Triostücken" since they are each unrelated little pieces for piano trio which an editor put together to make a single publication. And then, you have Schubert's Triosatz D471, which is the surviving fragment of an entire piano trio, whether it ever was completed or not, it wasn't meant to stand alone as a work.

I know there are differences between then and now in how words are to be understood, just as in English and any language, of course. I think Landon's unusual sentence construction is what deceives. It isn't fluent, and makes it difficult to tell which is the object of the sentence. Even so, however many times I read it, I come away just as many times with the impression of it saying "there are three short quartets" as opposed to 'there are an undisclosed number of quartets at three movements each'. Why would he even say that? Why would he suppose Artaria would care about how many movements as opposed to how many quartets? You see? It defies logic as well as grammar!

What say you to that? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on March 22, 2015, 06:14:40 AM

I have the bit from the letter quoted here in a little book on the quartets by Haydn scholar Georg Feder. For me it seems unspecified how many quartets. Haydn writes he is halfway done and "sind ganz klein, und nur mit 3 Stück, sie gehören nach Spanien". I would have to agree with Robbins-Landon. Although your reading is not completely impossible, the "nur mit" (with only three pieces) clearly seems to indicate that this is a characterization of the unspecified number of quartets.
It would very probably have been 3 or 6 quartets as usual. "half finished" (zur Hälfte fertig) probably does not imply an even number of quartets but can just mean that half the work on them is finished.
Feder does not say if he believes that op.42 is based on one of those lost pieces. In that case the menuet would have to have been added later.

So while I think that if the quote/extract I have is correct the obvious and most natural reading is clearly "unspecified # of quartets that are a "small" or short and have only three movements each, the lost Spanish quartets are still a puzzle. Wouldn't Haydn try to sell them not only to Spain but also in Vienna/Austria? Are there any other pieces from so late in Haydn's carreer (mid-1780s) that care completely lost? There are not incipits (starts of movements) and nothing. How would they just vanish in Spain? And why would Haydn write only 3 movements? (The really short quartets by Boccherini are only with 2 movements)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 22, 2015, 06:23:50 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on March 22, 2015, 06:14:40 AM
I have the bit from the letter quoted here in a little book on the quartets by Haydn scholar Georg Feder. For me it seems unspecified how many quartets. Haydn writes he is halfway done and "sind ganz klein, und nur mit 3 Stück, sie gehören nach Spanien". I would have to agree with Robbins-Landon. Although your reading is not completely impossible, the "nur mit" (with only three pieces) clearly seems to indicate that this is a characterization of the unspecified number of quartets.
It would very probably have been 3 or 6 quartets as usual. "half finished" (zur Hälfte fertig) probably does not imply an even number of quartets but can just mean that half the work on them is finished.
Feder does not say if he believes that op.42 is based on one of those lost pieces. In that case the menuet would have to have been added later.

So while I think that if the quote/extract I have is correct the obvious and most natural reading is clearly "unspecified # of quartets that are a "small" or short and have only three movements each, the lost Spanish quartets are still a puzzle. Wouldn't Haydn try to sell them not only to Spain but also in Vienna/Austria? Are there any other pieces from so late in Haydn's carreer (mid-1780s) that care completely lost? There are not incipits (starts of movements) and nothing. How would they just vanish in Spain? And why would Haydn write only 3 movements? (The really short quartets by Boccherini are only with 2 movements)

Thanks for finding that! While it doesn't solve the issue, of course, it does shed at least some light on it.

All you say in the last paragraph is true and an equal mystery to me. Jeffery suggested yesterday that the Spanish commission might have nothing to do with Op 42, and he is correct, of course. Although it is important to remove the years of encrusted belief before moving ahead with a new outlook, I think. But Haydn could have easily done exactly what Mozart did; answer the request by Hoffmeister with a new, single quartet, included a copy of the often used Hob 1a:4 overture along with it, and be done with the whole affair. Because if that isn't what happened, then all the questions you raise, and likely more of them, would remain to be answered. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on March 22, 2015, 09:44:09 AM

I agree that the presumeably lost Spanish works might be completely independent of op.42. (Not the least because while short it is obviously in 4 movements.)
People have been puzzled because it seems so short and slight. It is short but only a little shorter than the shorter pieces in op.33, if at all.
In fact, were it a piano sonata or a piano trio we would not be wondering about a shorter single piece. Haydn wrote the 3 shortish sonatas 40-42, all in 2 movements only, roughly around the same time, I believe.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 22, 2015, 09:57:14 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on March 22, 2015, 09:44:09 AM
I agree that the presumeably lost Spanish works might be completely independent of op.42. (Not the least because while short it is obviously in 4 movements.)
People have been puzzled because it seems so short and slight. It is short but only a little shorter than the shorter pieces in op.33, if at all.
In fact, were it a piano sonata or a piano trio we would not be wondering about a shorter single piece. Haydn wrote the 3 shortish sonatas 40-42, all in 2 movements only, roughly around the same time, I believe.

He actually wrote quite a few works which could be considered miniatures by the standards of any era. The 6 Scherzandi of 1761, possibly his first works for Prince Paul, were exquisite miniature symphonies, 4 movements each, lasting perhaps 10 minutes each on average. And the sonatas you pointed out (1783), and Op 42 (15.5 mins) and some of Op 33. Op 33 #2 & 4 are exactly 20 minutes each, while 5 & 6 are barely over 19. And the London Trios for flutes. Some of his works were very condensed, as though stripped of all extraneous thoughts. Even some operas, like L'Isola disabitata which he pared down to the minimum.

As for slight, it isn't really slight in content, it is pretty complete that way. As though it says what he wants to say and nothing extra. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on March 22, 2015, 05:40:26 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 22, 2015, 09:57:14 AM
As for slight, it isn't really slight in content, it is pretty complete that way. As though it says what he wants to say and nothing extra. :)

I am now imagining Jeffrey Jones saying "there are simply not enough notes."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 22, 2015, 06:14:45 PM

Quote from: Pat B on March 22, 2015, 05:40:26 PM
I am now imagining Jeffrey Jones saying "there are simply not enough notes."

;)

Well, it is damned hard to say something which has never been said before; a man's gotta say what a man's gotta say. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 23, 2015, 07:53:31 AM

(http://cdn.discogs.com/V49_moiUow8A0tFGnU2TMi8vy5U=/fit-in/500x497/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(96)/discogs-images/R-4388673-1363557151-4548.jpeg.jpg)

Now, that´s quite a rarity: Austrian pianist Ilse von Alpenheim (Antal Dorati´s wife) plays 6 Haydn piano concertos.

Complete on Youtube here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCVAKwNJ0vk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCVAKwNJ0vk)

Enjoy!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 23, 2015, 07:56:06 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 23, 2015, 07:53:31 AM
(http://cdn.discogs.com/V49_moiUow8A0tFGnU2TMi8vy5U=/fit-in/500x497/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(96)/discogs-images/R-4388673-1363557151-4548.jpeg.jpg)

Now, that´s quite a rarity: Austrian pianist Ilse von Alpenheim (Antal Dorati´s wife) plays 6 Haydn piano concertos.

Complete on Youtube here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCVAKwNJ0vk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCVAKwNJ0vk)

Enjoy!

Yes, hadn't seen that LP, but those are also available in a 2 CD Vox Box. I have it somewhere from long ago, she is really quite good. :)

8)

edit:
Here;
[asin]B000001K28[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 23, 2015, 09:06:07 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on March 21, 2015, 01:29:43 AM
I think the characterization is not totally wrong but it does not imply a limitation.

Agreed.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on March 23, 2015, 09:24:00 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 23, 2015, 09:06:07 AM
Quote from: Jo498 on March 21, 2015, 01:29:43 AM
I think the characterization is not totally wrong but it does not imply a limitation.
Agreed.

Hear, hear.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on March 23, 2015, 09:45:01 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 23, 2015, 07:53:31 AM
(http://cdn.discogs.com/V49_moiUow8A0tFGnU2TMi8vy5U=/fit-in/500x497/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(96)/discogs-images/R-4388673-1363557151-4548.jpeg.jpg)

Now, that´s quite a rarity: Austrian pianist Ilse von Alpenheim (Antal Dorati´s wife) plays 6 Haydn piano concertos.

Complete on Youtube here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCVAKwNJ0vk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCVAKwNJ0vk)

Enjoy!

Interesting... It's a new name to me.

But quite important because Wiki says she recorded all the Haydn piano sonatas, concertini and concerti.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 23, 2015, 10:16:33 AM

Quote from: North Star on March 23, 2015, 09:24:00 AM
Agreed.

Hear, hear.

I don't do characterizations. Certainly not based on any single work in an oeuvre of over 1000... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on March 23, 2015, 10:23:56 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 23, 2015, 10:16:33 AM
I don't do characterizations. Certainly not based on any single work in an oeuvre of over 1000... :)

8)

What about personation? 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 23, 2015, 10:31:01 AM

Quote from: North Star on March 23, 2015, 10:23:56 AM
What about personation? 8)

OK, well I try to do that. Working out what it consists in right now, but then...! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on March 24, 2015, 06:10:43 AM

Well, I have 23 Haydn symphonies... now neatly organised on iTunes so that each symphony is a separate 'album'... iTunes tells me it's 9 hours and 50 minutes worth.

I'm seriously considering putting it all on shuffle to help me cope with travelling halfway around the world.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 24, 2015, 06:32:33 AM

Quote from: orfeo on March 24, 2015, 06:10:43 AM
Well, I have 23 Haydn symphonies... now neatly organised on iTunes so that each symphony is a separate 'album'... iTunes tells me it's 9 hours and 50 minutes worth.

I'm seriously considering putting it all on shuffle to help me cope with traveling halfway around the world.

Well, I wouldn't travel halfway around the world, but if I did, I can scarcely imagine a better traveling companion than Haydn. He brought me to New York and back last autumn... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 24, 2015, 06:34:25 AM

I'm still so bewildered trying to get a handle on the symphonies, I should be hopeless if I let them shuffle.

Of course, I may be hopeless, there, no matter what . . . in which case the shuffle would do me no actual hurt . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on March 24, 2015, 06:35:32 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 24, 2015, 06:32:33 AM
Well, I wouldn't travel halfway around the world

Why on earth not, hmm? I mean, if us Antipodeans can visit you...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 24, 2015, 06:41:18 AM

Quote from: orfeo on March 24, 2015, 06:35:32 AM
Why on earth not, hmm? I mean, if us Antipodeans can visit you...

Oh, I'm just a homebody, don't mind me. Generally speaking, I think people travel too much. I would like to visit Australia and Austria though, and play a round of golf in Scotland... :-\ If I could take the train, it would be a clincher! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 24, 2015, 06:43:12 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 24, 2015, 06:34:25 AM
I'm still so bewildered trying to get a handle on the symphonies, I should be hopeless if I let them shuffle.

Of course, I may be hopeless, there, no matter what . . . in which case the shuffle would do me no actual hurt . . . .

Anyone who claims to have all of them perfectly squared away is either lying or supernatural. Throw in the remainder of his work and you can just give it up! :o :o

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on March 24, 2015, 06:56:45 AM

Yesterday, I purchased this Norrington set, not usually mentioned here:

Quote from: Gordo on March 24, 2015, 06:47:37 AM
Haydn: Symphonies 99-104
London Classical Players
Roger Norrington
Erato Disques, Veritas x 2

[asin]B003BKF6DW[/asin]

:)

Brisk and abrupt seem Norrington's trademarks. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 24, 2015, 07:43:34 AM

Quote from: Gordo on March 24, 2015, 06:56:45 AM
Yesterday, I purchased this Norrington set, not usually mentioned here:

Brisk and abrupt seem Norrington's trademarks. :)

I have the 3 individual disks of those. I agree, they are both those things. Doesn't seem to bother me though; I like a variety of approaches. They do a very nice #100. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 24, 2015, 07:51:56 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on March 24, 2015, 07:11:33 AM
Other than unexpected key shifts within a work from movement to movement, I would think there is a certain interchangeable aspect. I know this is heretical.

;)

You would think that, until you listened closely and discovered it was hard to find places where A copies B, so to speak. Even in works which are reminiscent in one way or another. As I wrote the other day about #83 in g using a pattern in the first movement which was pioneered the year before by #80 in d, a sort of diffusion of energy by breaking off regularly and playing something mild mannered, the MEANS of doing that; in the d minor by playing a silly little country dance and in the g minor by having the oboe clucking around, are very different. So even when the intention is the same, the means of realizing it aren't interchangeable. And those 2 works are only a year apart. If you play the 2 of them back to back you will see just what I mean (plus, have a nice listen!). :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 24, 2015, 07:54:48 AM

This is what makes Haydn such an especially fascinating and serviceable study for me. All the work sounds "of a piece," and yet (so far as my humble studies have discerned) he never just "riffs"; he is a master of finding new expression, without the need to reinvent himself for every piece (that would have been a gross anachronism in his epoch, I do realize). :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 24, 2015, 09:50:10 AM

Yes, and levity becomes the thread.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 24, 2015, 10:15:04 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on March 24, 2015, 09:30:04 AM
If I remember my music history correctly, wasn't Haydn known for using the same thematic material in various movements? There was even a term for it. I hope you know I was being facetious.

:)

Monothematicism. Harrumph...

:D
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Justin on March 24, 2015, 07:36:11 PM

Any idea why the Hogwood Haydn box is, according to Amazon, being released next month? It was released a good year or so ago, wasn't it?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on March 25, 2015, 12:07:08 AM

Using similar themes in several movements of a multi-movement work is often called "cyclic". The most obvious and famous example may be Berlioz' Symphonie Fantastique with the "idee fixe".
This is actually quite rare in Haydn, and connections, if present, are usually not that obvious. A few examples might be found, one of them is the symphony #46 in b major where a variant of the menuetto theme returns in the finale (and the material of first movement, menuetto and finale is related). Another one where the "cycle" is closed by means of literal quotation of the first movement horn call is the finale of symphony #31 "Hornsignal".

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 25, 2015, 05:45:11 AM

The Berlioz is a good example, though it is (as in other matters, which Berlioz himself freely owned) a pointer to Beethoven, the famous recurring motive in the Op.67.

Without in any way detracting from the younger composer's protean originality, "Papa's" occasional (frequent?) motivic economy was quite likely a seminal influence . . . and again, the full extent of "Papa's" potential influence is little understood, because his body of work is so delightfully and blessedly unwieldy.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 25, 2015, 05:46:38 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on March 25, 2015, 12:07:08 AM
Another one where the "cycle" is closed by means of literal quotation of the first movement horn call is the finale of symphony #31 "Hornsignal".

A wonderful example . . . without at all opposing your point, perhaps a case of the older Suite freshly influencing the younger genre?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 26, 2015, 03:03:18 AM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-4s%2BTI7KL._SS280.jpg)

These days I´ve been listening to Hob XVIII:1, 2, 5, 8 & 10 from the set above.

The musicmaking is of the highest quality, the instrumental balance perfect and the organ is a delight to hear. Highly recommended.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on March 26, 2015, 03:16:11 AM

Thanks for the rec, I haven't any of the organ concertos yet (maybe some in the guise of other keyboard instruments).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 26, 2015, 03:24:26 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on March 26, 2015, 03:16:11 AM
Thanks for the rec, I haven't any of the organ concertos yet (maybe some in the guise of other keyboard instruments).

Actually, they were written specifically for organ and were intended for church service. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 26, 2015, 03:39:16 AM

They are entirely charming works (no surprise to us Haydnistas here in da Haus).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 26, 2015, 03:54:37 AM

Post re-purposed 8)

Quote from: Conor71 on March 25, 2015, 09:07:45 PM
Picked up this recording after I seen it in the new releases thread (thanks to whoever posted it) :):

[asin]B00UCKXWZS[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 26, 2015, 04:07:13 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 26, 2015, 03:39:16 AM
They are entirely charming works (no surprise to us Haydnistas here in da Haus).

Absolutely, and although Gurn considers Hob XVIII:1 as superior to all others, I prefer XVIII:2 over it.

Music like this turns the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church into the Jolly Catholic and Apostolic Church. Haydn switches from serenading ladies in the streets to serenading God in the church. An entirely valid approach, methinks. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 26, 2015, 04:31:22 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 26, 2015, 03:03:18 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-4s%2BTI7KL._SS280.jpg)

These days I´ve been listening to Hob XVIII:1, 2, 5, 8 & 10 from the set above.

The musicmaking is of the highest quality, the instrumental balance perfect and the organ is a delight to hear. Highly recommended.

AFAIK, I have all the currently available recordings of these works (PI, of course), and this is the best investment you can make, IMO. It is also in the Big Box... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 26, 2015, 04:32:47 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 26, 2015, 03:24:26 AM
Actually, they were written specifically for organ and were intended for church service. :D

Yes, but they were also published as 'per organo o gravicembalo'. It was all about the $$ back then, too. :) Lots of recordings on harpsichord, then, even though it was only an alternate choice.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 26, 2015, 04:35:13 AM

In almost every musical epoch, versatility is seen as a sort of marketing virtue. Then there's always that And just how well do marketing and artistry mesh? matter . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on March 26, 2015, 05:22:00 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 26, 2015, 04:07:13 AM
Music like this turns the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church into the Jolly Catholic and Apostolic Church. Haydn switches from serenading ladies in the streets to serenading God in the church. An entirely valid approach, methinks. :D

Well, I have said something like this in the past, but it hasn't had repercussion because, I guess, it looks a sort of impopular idea and a bit biassed, as I'm a Catholic. The point is that I have always suspected/felt that Lutheran/Protestant music looks more like written more from the angle of the Holy Week (and specifically Good Friday) than from the spirit of the other capital Christian celebration: Christmas; while Catholic music is exactly the opposite. That said, Catholic music is generally speaking more joyful and less painful (Haydn and Vivaldi are wonderful examples), as opposed to the Protestant tradition which seems deeply introspective as just pain can get. Of course, all of these are sweeping generalizations. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 26, 2015, 05:27:33 AM

(http://www.haydn.or.at/images/cds/bis-cd-1806-08.jpg)
(http://s.ecrater.com/stores/67628/4e8659aba3810_67628b.jpg)

Listening to Hob II: 9 (Huss), 20 & G1 (Linde).

Question for Gurn: do we know, or can we infer, who or what they were composed for? Is this music supposed to be listened to in silence, or was the original audience supposed to be doing something else than concentrated listening?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on March 26, 2015, 05:34:55 AM

Luther himself was actually closer to the Catholics as far as music was concerned. Himself a composer and musician he had no qualms adapting tunes from popular music for church and Lutheran liturgy and service have historically been more lavish than most other protestant denominations (if not quite matching the full splendor of counterreformational Catholicism)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 26, 2015, 05:38:00 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 26, 2015, 05:27:33 AM
(http://www.haydn.or.at/images/cds/bis-cd-1806-08.jpg)
(http://s.ecrater.com/stores/67628/4e8659aba3810_67628b.jpg)

Listening to Hob II: 9 (Huss), 20 & G1 (Linde).

Question for Gurn: do we know, or can we infer, who or what they were composed for? Is this music supposed to be listened to in silence, or was the original audience supposed to be doing something else than concentrated listening?

Love that Linde CD!

There are many potential uses for divertimenti of that type. One of the most likely is Tafelmusik, a sure sign you were keeping up with the Joneses was to have your own little orchestra play for your guests while they ate. And so in that case, we would be talking and only partially paying attention to the nice sounds coming from the corner of the room. Or perhaps accompanying a little soirée out on the patio, so to speak. I highly doubt there was an occasion for listening which would have involved concentrated listening. It just wasn't done.

Between them, you can find the complete set of 3 of those works, 2 in G and 1 in F, all for the same suite of instruments, music which is actually deserving of some good listening effort, even for 1755. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on March 26, 2015, 05:41:09 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on March 26, 2015, 05:34:55 AM
Luther himself was actually closer to the Catholics as far as music was concerned. Himself a composer and musician he had no qualms adapting tunes from popular music for church and Lutheran liturgy and service have historically been more lavish than most other protestant denominations (if not quite matching the full splendor of counterreformational Catholicism)

It would have been hard for Luther to match the Counter-Reformation as he died in 1546, before it really even started (Council of Trent 1545-1563).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 26, 2015, 05:44:44 AM

Quote from: Gordo on March 26, 2015, 05:22:00 AM
Well, I have said something like this in the past, but it hasn't had repercussion because, I guess, it looks a sort of impopular idea and a bit biassed, as I'm a Catholic.

I am Orthodox, that is, in most truly essential matters barely distinguishable from a Catholic, so I´m with you all the way. :)

QuoteThe point is that I have always suspected/felt that Lutheran/Protestant music looks more like written more from the angle of the Holy Week (and specifically Good Friday) than from the spirit of the other capital Christian celebration: Christmas; while Catholic music is exactly the opposite.

The Protestant outlook can be summed up by only one word: Angst, while the Catholic / Orthodox outlook needs three: joie de vivre.

QuoteThat said, Catholic music is generally speaking more joyful and less painful (Haydn and Vivaldi are wonderful examples), as opposed to the Protestant tradition which seems deeply introspective as just pain can get.

The most (sublimely) extreme example of Protestant introspection and anguish is Heinrich Schutz.

Quote
Of course, all of these are sweeping generalizations. :)

There´s no smoke without a fire... ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on March 26, 2015, 05:49:01 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on March 26, 2015, 05:34:55 AM
Luther himself was actually closer to the Catholics as far as music was concerned.

There is no doubt about this: Luther was a Catholic monk, totally educated in this tradition. And Protestantism comes from Catholicism, as Christianity in general comes from Judaism. But each has, without a doubt, its particular imprint. At this moment, I don't recall who, but Christianity has been defined as a collection of Jewish beliefs subordinated to Plato and Aristotle. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 26, 2015, 05:51:04 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 26, 2015, 05:38:00 AM
There are many potential uses for divertimenti of that type. One of the most likely is Tafelmusik, a sure sign you were keeping up with the Joneses was to have your own little orchestra play for your guests while they ate. And so in that case, we would be talking and only partially paying attention to the nice sounds coming from the corner of the room. Or perhaps accompanying a little soirée out on the patio, so to speak. I highly doubt there was an occasion for listening which would have involved concentrated listening. It just wasn't done.

Just as I thought. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 26, 2015, 05:59:34 AM

Quote from: Gordo on March 26, 2015, 05:49:01 AM
There is no doubt about this: Luther was a Catholic monk, totally educated in this tradition. And Protestantism comes from Catholicism, as Christianity in general comes from Judaism. But each has, without a doubt, its particular imprint. At this moment, I don't recall who, but Christianity has been defined as a collection of Jewish beliefs subordinated to Plato and Aristotle. :D

I think it is useful to distinguish Lutheranism (Evangelical Church) from Calvinism (Reformed Church). The former, under the moderating influence of Philipp Melanchton, retained something of the Catholic spirit, while the latter is utterly alien and hostile to it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 26, 2015, 06:12:12 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on March 26, 2015, 06:03:33 AM
I am in the process of capturing my thoughts on the antecedents of ambient music for an article. I had immediately thought of Erik Satie's "furniture music", but I think I will look even farther back to the tafelmusik of the Baroque period.

:)

Sounds like an interesting project. I'd like to keep up with your findings, and toss some stuff your way if you are interested. I run across things en passant which I don't use, but I certainly am intrigued by. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 26, 2015, 06:14:43 AM

And (tangentially) I do find the Europa Galante recordings of Vivaldi richly atmospheric.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on March 26, 2015, 06:24:11 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 26, 2015, 06:14:43 AM
And (tangentially) I do find the Europa Galante recordings of Vivaldi richly atmospheric.

I doubted between two responses:

1) I like these smart-asses, or

2)

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1-4kBPi6oro/UyuBT_xLIDI/AAAAAAAADIc/HXOCPlox7Pk/s1600/bebe+asustado.png)

:D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on March 26, 2015, 06:24:56 AM

I think that the fondness of music was a rather personal thing (most first generation protestant/reformers had began as catholics...) but in any case it puts the role of music (and also some liturgical things and feasts) of the Lutheran tradition (and I meant this tradition of say Praetorius, Schuetz, Schein etc. which were contemporaries of the late 16th/early 17th century counterreformation) closer to Catholics than to Calvinist/Reformed traditions.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 26, 2015, 06:32:12 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on March 26, 2015, 06:24:56 AM
I think that the fondness of music was a rather personal thing (most first generation protestant/reformers had began as catholics...) but in any case it puts the role of music (and also some liturgical things and feasts) of the Lutheran tradition (and I meant this tradition of say Praetorius, Schuetz, Schein etc. which were contemporaries of the late 16th/early 17th century counterreformation) closer to Catholics than to Calvinist/Reformed traditions.

Precisely.

Tellingly enough, Calvin established in Geneva a grim, harsh and joyless theocracy which for 2 centuries produced not a single musician (or any other type of artist, for that matter) that I am aware of. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 26, 2015, 06:35:29 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 26, 2015, 06:14:43 AM
And (tangentially) I do find the Europa Galante recordings of Vivaldi richly atmospheric.

Very appropriate use of 'tangentially', Karl. As to be expected, of course. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on March 26, 2015, 06:57:58 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on March 26, 2015, 06:24:56 AM
I think that the fondness of music was a rather personal thing (most first generation protestant/reformers had began as catholics...) but in any case it puts the role of music (and also some liturgical things and feasts) of the Lutheran tradition (and I meant this tradition of say Praetorius, Schuetz, Schein etc. which were contemporaries of the late 16th/early 17th century counterreformation) closer to Catholics than to Calvinist/Reformed traditions.

I disagree, but as it's a thing of "emphasis" or "accent" more than other thing, it's very difficult to prove. It's just like a general flavor after some decades dedicated to sacred music, mostly Bach and his forerunners. Obviously, Lutheran tradition also has a lot of music full of pure happiness, as any listener, for instance, of the Christmas Oratorio can easily check.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on March 26, 2015, 07:15:48 AM

I do not understand: What exactly are you disagreeing with?
That Luther personally loved music and probably composed even some tunes for Lutheran chorales is well documented. That Lutheran liturgical practice and observation of feast days etc. (there are Bach cantatas for Marian feast days and Michaelmas, for instance) is far more "catholic" than any other Protestant tradition (unless one counts High Church Anglican as "protestant") is also easy to check.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 26, 2015, 07:17:30 AM

Comparative listening, Hob XVIII:6

First

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0003/100/MI0003100749.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

then

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-4s%2BTI7KL._SS280.jpg)

Both are excellent. If you look for physical intimacy and warmth, go for the harpsichord. If what you want is spiritual intimacy and warmth, go for the organ. Either way, you can´t go wrong.

Note to Gurn: I am following your listening suggestions in the chronological order of your essays at haydnseek. If I haven´t already said it, I say it now: this is one of the greatest educational sites I´ve ever encountered, period. If there is a Nobel Prize, or at least a Pullitzer, for websites, I nominate yours as a worthy candidate.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 26, 2015, 07:32:37 AM

Gurn, which are the earliest string trios, the ones composed for Fuernberg?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 26, 2015, 07:42:57 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 26, 2015, 07:32:37 AM
Gurn, which are the earliest string trios, the ones composed for Fuernberg?

IIRC, none of them are dated precisely. When I get home I will get you some better info than what I carry in my head. The Hob #'s were pretty close to chronological, I think, but then the ones with a Anghang sort of number (like V:C1) fit in the middle of them. String trios are greatly and unjustly underserved.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 26, 2015, 07:46:52 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 26, 2015, 07:42:57 AM
IIRC, none of them are dated precisely. When I get home I will get you some better info than what I carry in my head. The Hob #'s were pretty close to chronological, I think, but then the ones with a Anghang sort of number (like V:C1) fit in the middle of them. String trios are greatly and unjustly underserved.

8)

I ask that because you state that the earliest ones were composed for Fuernberg, while the Hurwitzer in reviewing the Wiener Philharmonia Trio boxset says "He was in his 30s when he wrote them, already in the service of the Esterházy family, and they post-date the Morzin symphonies and the first 10 divertimento-quartets." I am puzzled.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 26, 2015, 08:16:54 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 26, 2015, 07:46:52 AM
I ask that because you state that the earliest ones were composed for Fuernberg, while the Hurwitzer in reviewing the Wiener Philharmonia Trio boxset says "He was in his 30s when he wrote them, already in the service of the Esterházy family, and they post-date the Morzin symphonies and the first 10 divertimento-quartets." I am puzzled.

If you have to choose between me and Hurwitz when it comes to Haydn, I can tell you how to go with that, without seeming too pompous. ::)

There are only a couple of them which post-date the Esterházy employment. And that is early Esterházy employment. Most of them are uncertain, but some may be as early as 1753 or 54. He first met Fürnberg ~1754, probably he played music at the Vienna residence, but in any case, he was robbed of all his possessions, and Fürnberg was among those who gave him clothes, and in this case, a roof over his head for 2 or 3 months. That was a likely place for the earliest trios to have originated. Also, he was composing works for his students of keyboard and fiddle, and also works for his strolling minstrels. So (and this is something I am working on offline right now) the glut of over 100 works which begins to show up in the late 1750's was not all written in the late 1750, but throughout the decade. solo keyboard, keyboard trios, string trios. Some of them for the Morzin's, of course, but spread out across nearly 10 years, not all jammed up in 2 or 3 years.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 26, 2015, 08:22:35 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 26, 2015, 07:17:30 AM
Comparative listening, Hob XVIII:6

First

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0003/100/MI0003100749.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

then

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51-4s%2BTI7KL._SS280.jpg)

Both are excellent. If you look for physical intimacy and warmth, go for the harpsichord. If what you want is spiritual intimacy and warmth, go for the organ. Either way, you can´t go wrong.

Note to Gurn: I am following your listening suggestions in the chronological order of your essays at haydnseek. If I haven´t already said it, I say it now: this is one of the greatest educational sites I´ve ever encountered, period. If there is a Nobel Prize, or at least a Pullitzer, for websites, I nominate yours as a worthy candidate.

Well, thanks, Florestan. That is all I was hoping for when I began it. If it helps anyone else enjoy Haydn as much as I do, then it is a resounding success. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 26, 2015, 08:25:01 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 26, 2015, 08:16:54 AM
If you have to choose between me and Hurwitz when it comes to Haydn, I can tell you how to go with that, without seeming too pompous. ::)

Fair enough. :D

Quote
There are only a couple of them which post-date the Esterházy employment. And that is early Esterházy employment. Most of them are uncertain, but some may be as early as 1753 or 54. He first met Fürnberg ~1754, probably he played music at the Vienna residence, but in any case, he was robbed of all his possessions, and Fürnberg was among those who gave him clothes, and in this case, a roof over his head for 2 or 3 months. That was a likely place for the earliest trios to have originated. Also, he was composing works for his students of keyboard and fiddle, and also works for his strolling minstrels. So (and this is something I am working on offline right now) the glut of over 100 works which begins to show up in the late 1750's was not all written in the late 1750, but throughout the decade. solo keyboard, keyboard trios, string trios. Some of them for the Morzin's, of course, but spread out across nearly 10 years, not all jammed up in 2 or 3 years.

Been listening to Hob V:1 (Wiener Philharmonia Trio), Hob XV:35 (Beaux Arts) and Hob II:11 (Linde Consort). They sound absolutely gorgeous to me, but to put them in the right context, one would have to compare them with similar contemporary works by other composers. Any suggestions?

BTW, whose Geburtstag is alluded to in Hob II:11? Fuernberg´s or Morzin´s?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 26, 2015, 08:27:42 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 26, 2015, 08:22:35 AM
Well, thanks, Florestan. That is all I was hoping for when I began it. If it helps anyone else enjoy Haydn as much as I do, then it is a resounding success. :)

8)

I´ve always enjoyed Haydn´s music but to have it put in historical perspective and to discover lesser known or downright ignored compositions of his is one of my greatest musical joys so far. Thanks again, buddy!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 26, 2015, 09:15:06 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 26, 2015, 08:25:01 AM
Fair enough. :D

Been listening to Hob V:1 (Wiener Philharmonia Trio), Hob XV:35 (Beaux Arts) and Hob II:11 (Linde Consort). They sound absolutely gorgeous to me, but to put them in the right context, one would have to compare them with similar contemporary works by other composers. Any suggestions?

BTW, whose Geburtstag is alluded to in Hob II:11? Fuernberg´s or Morzin´s?

There are not a lot of recorded divertimentos from that era. At least, not that I've run across. Other Viennese and Bohemian composers who were very popular at the time, and who there are a few recordings of, include Wagenseil and Tuma. One might be able to find some early Ditters, for example, but I'm not sure what, except for violin concertos. Let me scratch my head on this for a while. It is a good question in line with my own interests, and I should have a better answer. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 26, 2015, 09:21:31 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 26, 2015, 09:15:06 AM
. . . One might be able to find some early Ditters, for example . . . .

Ditters: Before the Dorf

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 26, 2015, 09:55:53 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 26, 2015, 09:21:31 AM
Ditters: Before the Dorf

Yes, the Dorf arrived only in 1773 (in case you really wanted to know!) :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 26, 2015, 09:57:59 AM

Knew I could count on you, O Gurn! 8) And I knew that your use of the shorter name signified. (I could not resist the jest, as you well know.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 26, 2015, 10:00:59 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 26, 2015, 09:57:59 AM
Knew I could count on you, O Gurn! 8) And I knew that your use of the shorter name signified. (I could not resist the jest, as you well know.)

Well, I know you are a big closet Ditters fan, so you were probably just baiting me... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 26, 2015, 10:06:35 AM

If so, that's a closet even I haven't discovered, let alone come out of . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on March 26, 2015, 10:19:44 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on March 26, 2015, 07:15:48 AM
I do not understand: What exactly are you disagreeing with?
That Luther personally loved music and probably composed even some tunes for Lutheran chorales is well documented. That Lutheran liturgical practice and observation of feast days etc. (there are Bach cantatas for Marian feast days and Michaelmas, for instance) is far more "catholic" than any other Protestant tradition (unless one counts High Church Anglican as "protestant") is also easy to check.

Obviously first Protestants were a lot more similar to Catholics than the Protestants of a century after, simply because first Protestants were Catholics before to be Protestants. But you can be sure: they were a lot more interested in their differences with Catholics than the other way. Simply because they believed they were proposing a new kind of relation with God.

So the most important thing to understand both groups should be searched among differences more than into similarities because similarities are a lot and obviously will lead to the conclusion: all was exactly the same thing.

Yes, Luther, for instance, was a skillful translator, poet and even musician, but there is a huge intellectual distance between "Veni redemptor gentium" and "Nun komm, der Heiden Heiland." And these guys were well disposed (at least some of them) to die to demonstrate this point.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 26, 2015, 04:24:32 PM

Quote from: Florestan on March 26, 2015, 07:46:52 AM
I ask that because you state that the earliest ones were composed for Fuernberg, while the Hurwitzer in reviewing the Wiener Philharmonia Trio boxset says "He was in his 30s when he wrote them, already in the service of the Esterházy family, and they post-date the Morzin symphonies and the first 10 divertimento-quartets." I am puzzled.

This is the most current listing. Without being 'official' about it, everyone talks about them being earlier, but no one wants to commit to it without some solid documentation. But these dates reflect the logjam at the end of the 1750's which would have been physically impossible if one considers the sonatas, symphonies, divertimentos, keyboard and string trios, string quartets, concertini for keyboard quartet, etc. to have composed all in a 4 year span from 1757 to 1760. They total well over 100! :o :o If you stretch the time back to 1753, though, not only does the yearly average go down, but the reasons for writing increase exponentially.

String Trios:
Year     Hob 5 #   Key
1757     1    E
1757     2    F
1757     3    b
1757     4    Eb
1757     6    Eb
1757     7    A
1758     8    Bb
1758     10   F
1758     11   Eb
1758     12   E
1758     13   Bb
1758     C1   C
1759     15   D
1759     D3   D
1759     F1   F
1759     G1   G
1759     A2   A
1760     A3   A
1760     D1   D
1760     B1   Bb
1760     G3   G
1760     G4   G
1760     C3   C
1760     C5   C
1763     16   C
1763     17   Eb
1763     18   Bb
1763     19   E
1763     20   G
1765     21   D

I can't even imagine an event which would have triggered the 1763 group, for example, or the lone 1765 one. :-\

Anyway, that's what I have. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 27, 2015, 01:28:02 AM

Many thanks, Gurn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 29, 2015, 09:17:39 AM

The keyboard trios are among my favorite genres, and like you, I have been wating for the last 20 years to finally see some more. This year for sure! Have a look at what I found in 1785.

Piano trio, in all but name! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/03/1785-the-music-part-3-.html)

Thanks for checking it out,

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 30, 2015, 12:05:26 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on March 30, 2015, 11:46:47 AM
Is there a preferred box of the complete masses? I've been delving into this one which was recently issued as a digital purchase:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51sI9ovFezL._SS280.jpg)

Hi Sanantone - although I've been listening to Haydn for decades and he's the number 2 composer for CDs that I own (JS Bach first), I came into his sacred music & oratorios more recently (i.e. last decade or so) - currently own the 'complete' box below and the other two partial collections - I believe that many here have been happy w/ the Naxos offering, and available at the good price - Dave :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-GTdmsNh/0/S/Haydn_MassesNaxos-S.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-QZQST99/0/S/Haydn_Masses_Weil-S.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-Jzh83h8/0/S/Haydn_Masses_Gardiner-S.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 30, 2015, 12:11:30 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on March 30, 2015, 12:05:26 PM
(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-GTdmsNh/0/S/Haydn_MassesNaxos-S.jpg)

Quote from: sanantonio on March 30, 2015, 11:46:47 AM
Is there a preferred box of the complete masses? I've been delving into this one which was recently issued as a digital purchase:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51sI9ovFezL._SS280.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Complete-Masses-digital-booklet/dp/B00SQ0O0HU/ref=sr_1_cc_2?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1427743673&sr=1-2-catcorr&keywords=gardiner+haydn+masses)

I haven't seen before the box you showed, but I have all of those as singles. Nice to have, but wouldn't be my first choice.

One of the ones Dave pictured, the Naxos box, is the one to have if you're having only one. It is very (nearly) complete, lacking some of the smaller sacred works (but then, only Hickox and Weil between them have those), excellent performances and (is/was?) a really nice price too. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 30, 2015, 12:59:54 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on March 30, 2015, 12:29:07 PM
I have the Trinity Choir box, but was just wondering about the opinions on Gardiner. I'm listening on Spotify. The Weil looks interesting as well, I like his symphony box.

Thanks for the feedback.

:)

Oh, I like Gardiner OK. Sort of a 'big church' kind of performance, which of course these weren't written for. Like Hickox in that way. Weil is excellent too, but that box is just the last 6, like Gardiner's, not Complete Masses. Weil has a nearly complete masses box, but it has licensing issues outside of the Benelux Countries. Brilliant licensed it for distribution there. It also has the earlier masses and some smaller works, like Salve Regina's that are hard to get, also the a capella mass, Sunt bona mixta mala, which is hard to get otherwise. I like the earlier stuff better than the 6 Great Masses, but hey, that's just me... 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 30, 2015, 02:18:07 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on March 30, 2015, 01:16:35 PM
The Gardiner calls itself "complete" and while it may not have every mass you describe (I haven't checked) it is more than the six masses. But, I think I am fine with the Naxos box.

The ones that Dave pictured above, which I also have, contain the 6 masses & the motet Insanae et vanae curae, plus the 2nd Te Deum. I was not aware of Gardiner doing more than that, if he did, I would love to have that too! I'll check out that box and see how it adds up. Sometimes being a completist is a small burden to bear... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 30, 2015, 02:21:27 PM

Ah yes, I see now, the other disks on there, the Preston & Guest disks, they have the earlier works. I was focused on the Gardiner and had a brain fart... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on March 30, 2015, 10:15:02 PM

(http://media.mdt.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/8/8/88875021332.jpg)

This 3 CD set is new at mdt.co.uk. £10.42 (+VAT for those inside the EU).

BTW I will be spending a week at Neusiedler this summer, within easy reach of Eisenstadt and Esterhazy....needless to say I will be a Haydn pilgrim for a day or two.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 31, 2015, 04:16:15 AM

Quote from: The new erato on March 30, 2015, 10:15:02 PM
(http://media.mdt.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/8/8/88875021332.jpg)

This 3 CD set is new at mdt.co.uk. £0-42 (+VAT for those inside the EU).

BTW I will be spending a week at Neusiedler this summer, within easy reach of Eisenstadt and Esterhazy....needless to say I will be a Haydn pilgrim for a day or two.

Interesting. Haven't seen that before, the only Norrington Haydn I've seen is 6 London Symphonies.

Now, that's cool! I'll trade you a couple days in Texas, in summer, ummm... never mind. >:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on March 31, 2015, 05:01:16 AM

The price should have been £10.42. Now corrected. Now what do you have in midsummer Texas?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 31, 2015, 05:17:01 AM

Quote from: The new erato on March 31, 2015, 05:01:16 AM
The price should have been £10.42. Now corrected. Now what do you have in midsummer Texas?

Heat. It would have been a bad trade, I withdrew the offer on account of my regard for you. :D

Although, now I consider it, possibly the Northern climes would look so nice when you came home, and isn't that what vacation is all about? ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 31, 2015, 03:03:43 PM

Happy 283^rd birthday to Joseph Haydn today. Delightfully relevant all these years later! :)

8)

(http://media.npr.org/programs/wesun/features/2009/may/haydn_300-ebf494a70a11d779a1c880049be36bd683582bc2-s6-c30.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 03, 2015, 08:09:36 AM

Since it will soon disappear on the WAYLT thread, I repost this here so you can perhaps see a version which intrigues you and shop for it.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn%207%20Last%20Words%20Orchestral%20Savall%20cover_zps1tj9po2j.jpg)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn%207%20Last%20Words%20Savall%20DVD%20sm_zps8sydeiy4.jpg)

Posting the DVD in the listening thread is what started this...

Quote from: Gordo on April 03, 2015, 07:14:26 AM
There is not better date, indeed.

One of the greatest compositions in musical history: it's amazing how Haydn faced and succeed the challenge of one meditative movement after another, without never loosing focus and interest.

I must confess I'm totally unable to choose among the different versions/transcriptions, even the keyboard version not directly prepared by Haydn.

I think tonight I will hear the extraordinary interpretation of Brautigam. :)

Yes, this is so. So many fine versions/transcriptions/realizations, too.

Right now, I am listening to:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/7%20last%20words%20Harnoncourt%20%20cover_zpsjeoieykc.jpg)

But this week I have gone through as many as I have, like these string quartet:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn7LastWordsStringQuartetSkaacutelholtcover_zps65399ee3.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/7%20last%20words%20Mosaiques%20cover_zpshacpj2um.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn%20Kuijken%204tet%207%20Last%20cover_zpsorcsjenr.jpg)

These other oratorios:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn%207%20Last%20Words%20accentus%20cover_zpss78kqqvz.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn%207%20Last%20Words%20Spering%20cover_zps8bk4liic.jpg)

These keyboard:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/7%20last%20words%20cover%20brautigam%20500X500_zpsluatj0wy.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn%207%20Last%20Words%20Lubimov%20cover_zpsqvjipyq8.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn%207%20Last%20Words%20Tuma%20cover_zpsschakcq8.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn%207%20Last%20Words%20Haumlkkinen%20cover_zpsbufa91eb.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn%207%20Last%20Words%20Keyboard%20Immerseel%20cover_zpsgqlf5xw0.jpg)

But my new discovery of the season has been this hybrid; String Quartet and mezzo, thus playing the oratorio version for string quartet. Really quite striking.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn%207%20Last%20Words%20String%20Quartet%20w%20Mezzo%20Henschel%20Kelling%20cover_zpso4tddcpn.jpg)

No better time to enjoy one!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on April 03, 2015, 08:35:23 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 03, 2015, 08:09:36 AM
But this week I have gone through as many as I have, like these string quartet:
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn7LastWordsStringQuartetSkaacutelholtcover_zps65399ee3.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/7%20last%20words%20Mosaiques%20cover_zpshacpj2um.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn%20Kuijken%204tet%207%20Last%20cover_zpsorcsjenr.jpg)

Do you mean you don't have this one? For heaven's sake!

[asin]B001TN0VP6[/asin]

:D :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 03, 2015, 09:59:45 AM

Quote from: Gordo on April 03, 2015, 08:35:23 AM
Do you mean you don't have this one? For heaven's sake!

[asin]B001TN0VP6[/asin]

:D :P

Oh no, I have that one too. Also Oort on keyboard. This isn't my entire stash, just some highlights! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 03, 2015, 12:27:30 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 03, 2015, 08:09:36 AM
Since it will soon disappear on the WAYLT thread, I repost this here so you can perhaps see a version which intrigues you and shop for it.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn%207%20Last%20Words%20Orchestral%20Savall%20cover_zps1tj9po2j.jpg)
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn%207%20Last%20Words%20Savall%20DVD%20sm_zps8sydeiy4.jpg)

Posting the DVD in the listening thread is what started this...

Well, that was beautiful, and no surprise in that. I picked up the DVD at about this season last year (or perhaps the year before . . . I admit, time is apt to get past me) nor do I have any plausible excuse for not having watched before, but this will be a most enjoyable annual Good Friday ritual.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 03, 2015, 01:03:05 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 03, 2015, 12:27:30 PM
Well, that was beautiful, and no surprise in that. I picked up the DVD at about this season last year (or perhaps the year before . . . I admit, time is apt to get past me) nor do I have any plausible excuse for not having watched before, but this will be a most enjoyable annual Good Friday ritual.

Yes, it actually was 2 years ago, I recall discussing with you. Indeed, it IS beautiful, absolutely reeking of authenticity, since after all, it is performed in the original church it was composed for. But in addition, Savall just seems to have the best grip on the music of all my performances.

This is my third annual viewing. Hopefully not my last. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 05, 2015, 12:36:25 PM

Looking at 1786, I found some of the breadth Haydn's popularity on display. A Pan-Euro phenomenon! I noted a few highlights of the year this week, have a look if you will. :)

For once, the Prince doesn't get the Last Word(s) (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/04/1786-the-year-.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 06, 2015, 08:38:44 AM

Haydn's Piano Sonatas w/ Ekaterina Derzhavina - new arrival - now for 'complete' sets, I also have Buchbinder on a modern piano, plus Schornsheim & Brautigam on PIs - AND, the Tom Beghin box.

So far, Derzhavina is sounding excellent - what are thoughts of her vs. Buchbinder, who I think also does quite well in these works, i.e. do I need both boxes - which would be your 'go to' collection on a modern piano (and I know others exist which I've not heard)? - Dave :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-h4hfZJB/0/O/Haydn_PianoSons_Derzhavina.jpg) (http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-zp3hqpL/0/O/Haydn_PSons_Buchbinder.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on April 08, 2015, 07:09:35 PM

http://www.youtube.com/v/awFy-UqbvPI

Haydn: Die Jahreszeiten
Orchestra della Svizzera italiana
Coro della RSI
Choir of the Swiss Radio

Nice, isn't it?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on April 09, 2015, 04:52:01 AM

Quote from: Gordo on April 08, 2015, 07:09:35 PM
http://www.youtube.com/v/awFy-UqbvPI

Haydn: Die Jahreszeiten
Orchestra della Svizzera italiana
Coro della RSI
Choir of the Swiss Radio

Nice, isn't it?

Well, as a Haydinisto, completist and old fan of Fasolis, I will add this information:

(http://www.music-bazaar.com/album-images/vol14/643/643643/2489748-big/Haydn-Die-Jahreszeiten-%5BFasolis-2000%5D-cover.jpg)

Apparently, this set was just sold together with the Italian magazine "Amadeus" and some copies of that set can be found here and there.

Anyway, currently it's available as FLAC files here:

http://www.music-bazaar.com/classical-music/album/643643/Haydn-Die-Jahreszeiten-%5BFasolis-2000%5D/

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 09, 2015, 04:54:07 AM

Quote from: Gordo on April 09, 2015, 04:52:01 AM
as a Haydinisto,

Shouldn't it be rather Haydnista? :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 09, 2015, 04:55:13 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 09, 2015, 04:54:07 AM
Shouldn't it be rather Haydnista? :)

Yes, I think 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on April 09, 2015, 04:58:13 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 09, 2015, 04:54:07 AM
Shouldn't it be rather Haydnista? :)

I believe so, but this name was chosen by Gurn long time ago, so it's a sort of tradition... :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 09, 2015, 05:00:27 AM

Quote from: Gordo on April 09, 2015, 04:58:13 AM
I believe so, but this name was chosen by Gurn long time ago, so it's a sort of tradition... :)

Let's stick to the tradition, then. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 09, 2015, 05:06:09 AM

I can go either way with it; masculine/feminine word endings in Spanish are only considered consistent by native speakers. For example, even though the police were nearly always men in the days when the word was being coined, the police generically are called 'El Policia', which is a feminine ending. Haydnisto probably falls in the same category, despite it being a sad case of Espanish-izing an already existent made-up word, which is 'Haydnist', which dates back a long time. It has a softer and more pleasant sound with a Spanish ending. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 09, 2015, 05:12:33 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 09, 2015, 05:06:09 AM
I can go either way with it; masculine/feminine word endings in Spanish are only considered consistent by native speakers. For example, even though the police were nearly always men in the days when the word was being coined, the police generically are called 'El Policia', which is a feminine ending. Haydnisto probably falls in the same category, despite it being a sad case of Espanish-izing an already existent made-up word, which is 'Haydnist', which dates back a long time. It has a softer and more pleasant sound with a Spanish ending. :)

8)

Not to seem to gainsay any of your post, dude . . . just further musing. I wonder if this usage (cf. Sandinista) mirrors the "significant exception" category including such masculine Spanish nouns as pianista and artista.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 09, 2015, 05:12:51 AM

Love this thread . . . we can chat about [nearly] anything 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 09, 2015, 05:15:30 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 09, 2015, 05:12:33 AM
Not to seem to gainsay any of your post, dude . . . just further musing. I wonder if this usage (cf. Sandinista) mirrors the "significant exception" category including such masculine Spanish nouns as pianista and artista.

AFAIK there is no -isto suffix in Spanish. All of them are -ista, be they masculine or feminine. Gordo can surely illuminate the question.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 09, 2015, 05:17:07 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 09, 2015, 05:12:51 AM
Love this thread . . . we can chat about [nearly] anything 8)

That's another tradition, this time going back to Eszterhazy Miklos. He surely chatted a lot during Taffelsmusik. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on April 09, 2015, 05:26:49 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 09, 2015, 05:15:30 AM
AFAIK there is no -isto suffix in Spanish. All of them are -ista, be they masculine or feminine. Gordo can surely illuminate the question.

You're right, it's very uncommon. But it's possible to find some exception: "modisto", for instance, it's the masculine form for "dressmaker", being "modista" the feminine.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 09, 2015, 05:28:48 AM

Quote from: Gordo on April 09, 2015, 05:26:49 AM
You're right, it's very uncommon. But it's possible to find some exception: "modisto", for instance, it's the masculine form for "dressmaker", being "modista" the feminine.

So that is la modista as compared to el artista, sì?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 09, 2015, 05:34:57 AM

La lista de un artista: de manana ir a la modista, a las dos de las tardes desayunar con un violinista, a las once de las noches charlar con una pianista, y despues hasta la vista! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on April 09, 2015, 05:35:18 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 09, 2015, 05:28:48 AM
So that is la modista as compared to el artista, sì?

Exactly.

It would be:

El/la artista; not "el artisto."

Then, a bit exceptionally, "el modisto" and "la modista."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on April 09, 2015, 05:39:45 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 09, 2015, 05:34:57 AM
La lista de un artista: de manñana ir a la modista, a las dos de las tardes desayunar con un violinista, a las once de las noches charlar con una pianista, y despueés hasta la vista! ;D

Totally right, it would never be: "violinisto" o "pianisto"; just "modisto" o "modista", a sort of exception. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on April 12, 2015, 08:55:58 AM

I found a reference to this disk very recently and thought that maybe other Haydnistos could be interested:

[asin]B00004SVIA[/asin]

Mrs. Huggett is a good hook. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 12, 2015, 10:14:52 AM

Still have that on my wish list, Gordo. I downloaded it years ago, always planning on getting it one day, now it is more challenging! :)

Quote from: Gordo on April 12, 2015, 08:55:58 AM
I found a reference to this disk very recently and thought that maybe other Haydnistos could be interested:

[asin]B00004SVIA[/asin]

Mrs. Huggett is a good hook. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 12, 2015, 10:18:19 AM

I thought I might get off-track just a bit this week, and finally begin to post the resource material I have been promising for a while. This week I put up a summary of all the music composed in the 1750's. It would have been foolhardy to try to assign a year to most of these, but you can refer to some of the essays for works which are virtually certain of the dating. Hope this is helpful to those interested.

The Music of the 1750's (http://tinyurl.com/njtabg2)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 19, 2015, 12:05:27 PM

OK, well it's back to Paris this week, enjoying their last golden years before the fall. If anything, this year's symphonies are even grander than last year's!

Someone put that damned bear back in its cage! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/04/1786-the-music-part-1-.html)

Thanks for checking it out!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 20, 2015, 01:05:22 AM

Thanks for your list of 1750s music!

I wonder whether you or someone else can identify the first piece on the following disc. In the booklet there is no Hob # given (and it might be a piece of dubious authorship). The 2nd and 3rd pieces on the CD are revealed in the booklet to be Hob II:B4 and Hob II:A4. AFAIS it is NOT identical to Hob II:20 as the movements have different timings. In any case it will probably be named as a divertimento (instead cassatio, these were almost synonymous) in Hoboken or elsewhere. It's for oboe(s) horns and some strings, so no "Feld-parthie" for winds only. (I wonder if it might be a hybrid or arrangement but the booklet does not say so.) I do not know ho many Hob II:Fx there are and how I could compare incipits or soundbits. The piece does not seem to be in Huss' BIS/Koch box but I did not check all the pieces (the also sometimes do sound rather similar to each other, only the ones in F major with 5 movements).

[asin]B000001WTW[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 20, 2015, 04:20:53 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on April 20, 2015, 01:05:22 AM
Thanks for your list of 1750s music!

I wonder whether you or someone else can identify the first piece on the following disc. In the booklet there is no Hob # given (and it might be a piece of dubious authorship). The 2nd and 3rd pieces on the CD are revealed in the booklet to be Hob II:B4 and Hob II:A4. AFAIS it is NOT identical to Hob II:20 as the movements have different timings. In any case it will probably be named as a divertimento (instead cassatio, these were almost synonymous) in Hoboken or elsewhere. It's for oboe(s) horns and some strings, so no "Feld-parthie" for winds only. (I wonder if it might be a hybrid or arrangement but the booklet does not say so.) I do not know ho many Hob II:Fx there are and how I could compare incipits or soundbits. The piece does not seem to be in Huss' BIS/Koch box but I did not check all the pieces (the also sometimes do sound rather similar to each other, only the ones in F major with 5 movements).

[asin]B000001WTW[/asin]

You're welcome. New decades will be posted as I get them collated, I like that format.

There is another page to click on the right side of the page, it is called 'Sunrise Over Hoboken' and it explains how to read one of those damned numbers.

In this case, since the letter is on the right side of the full stop, it indicates the key, as you have already figured out. 'B flat 4' and 'A4' are works which have only been attributed to Haydn, and very likely are not by him. There are only 2 authenticated Haydn works in the dozens which have that sort of numbering in Hoboken II. They are D22 and G1. And those are the only ones you will find in Huss' set, since he only put authenticated ones in there. If you want to see a bunch of those, look in that Warner box of 'Haydn Wind Divertimentos' by Dieter Klöcker, he has a pisspot full of them, all of them very likely composed by someone else!

Without my own copy of Hoboken and a working knowledge of German, I can't tell how many works are included in each category like that. The fact of that authentic one being D22 gives some idea, although, of course, D major is the #1 key for wind divertimentos in the 18th century.

Hope that helps a little. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 20, 2015, 04:35:05 AM

'Sunrise Over Hoboken': I love that.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 20, 2015, 04:41:13 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 20, 2015, 04:35:05 AM
'Sunrise Over Hoboken': I love that.

Thanks, I love it when someone finally gets it. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 20, 2015, 05:55:35 AM

thanks, I have a partial Hoboken (included in a paperback book which apparently contains basically the New Grove entry on Haydn by Larsen and Feder (in German translation), but this includes only some of the dubious works (and no incipits of course). Problem is that the info on this CD is so sparse that I hesitate to believe even the key signature... Some day I should listen to all of the Huss amazon soundbites, it might even be in there. But as you say, it's more likely it will not be as it is very probably a dubious piece. Overall the disc is quite nice in any case, modern instruments, but beautifully played. But I find it really outrageous that the booklet info is so sparse. I even have the suspicion that the booklet author did this on purpose to obscure the fact that 80% of the music might not be composed by Haydn... The Linos ensemble has another nice disc with a bunch of woodwind partitas most of which may not be Haydn either but they have Hob. numbers (so one can look them and the authenticity status up).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 20, 2015, 06:25:18 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on April 20, 2015, 05:55:35 AM
thanks, I have a partial Hoboken (included in a paperback book which apparently contains basically the New Grove entry on Haydn by Larsen and Feder (in German translation), but this includes only some of the dubious works (and no incipits of course). Problem is that the info on this CD is so sparse that I hesitate to believe even the key signature... Some day I should listen to all of the Huss amazon soundbites, it might even be in there. But as you say, it's more likely it will not be as it is very probably a dubious piece. Overall the disc is quite nice in any case, modern instruments, but beautifully played. But I find it really outrageous that the booklet info is so sparse. I even have the suspicion that the booklet author did this on purpose to obscure the fact that 80% of the music might not be composed by Haydn... The Linos ensemble has another nice disc with a bunch of woodwind partitas most of which may not be Haydn either but they have Hob. numbers (so one can look them and the authenticity status up).

No prob. Yes, that actually IS the New Grove entry on Haydn, it was big enough they could also publish it separately. It only took me 7 or 8 years to get comfortable using it...

No, I can tell you, Huss has nothing from Hob 2 in Bb or A. This is not to say that it isn't nice music though. I find it ironic to see that the underhanded practices seen with music publishers back in 1765 are still being continued today by CD publishers. And they justify it by saying that it was originally published as Haydn! Much like the flute and oboe concertos which everyone in the world knows were not by Haydn, and yet are even today being published with "HAYDN" in big letters on the front cover, but when you read the notes, sometimes there will be an asterisk and in 3 point text at the bottom of the last page it will say "Once attributed to Haydn, now believed to be Hoffmeister" or whoever.

Music may have changed over the 2+ centuries since Haydn, but the "ethics" of music publishers haven't changed a bit. >:(

:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 22, 2015, 04:28:22 AM

Actually, maybe I was not clear: The identification of these other pieces as Hob. II A 4 and B flat 2 is in fact given in the booklet, although the dubious authorship is only hinted at. Only the cassatio is not identified and no clue given that it's more probably not by Haydn than vice versa.
My suspicion is now that it could be Hob.II: F2 because it fits the instrumentation (Oboe, Bassoon, 2 Horns, Violin, Viola, Bass). But the only info in the book I mentioned above is that there is an edition (of the sheet music I guess) "Leipzig 1970". Only a question mark for date of composition, no info regarding probability of authorship. (Whereas for B flat 2 it is mentioned that it could have been written by Joh. Chr. Bach or Abel.)

They do not have to print PROBABLY NOT BY HAYDN in capital letters on the CD cover. But it should be told in the booklet and maybe in fine print on the backcover...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 22, 2015, 04:39:34 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on April 22, 2015, 04:28:22 AM
Actually, maybe I was not clear: The identification of these other pieces as Hob. II A 4 and B flat 2 is in fact given in the booklet, although the dubious authorship is only hinted at. Only the cassatio is not identified and no clue given that it's more probably not by Haydn than vice versa.
My suspicion is now that it could be Hob.II: F2 because it fits the instrumentation (Oboe, Bassoon, 2 Horns, Violin, Viola, Bass). But the only info in the book I mentioned above is that there is an edition (of the sheet music I guess) "Leipzig 1970". Only a question mark for date of composition, no info regarding probability of authorship. (Whereas for B flat 2 it is mentioned that it could have been written by Joh. Chr. Bach or Abel.)

They do not have to print PROBABLY NOT BY HAYDN in capital letters on the CD cover. But it should be told in the booklet and maybe in fine print on the backcover...

So the implication is that it is Hob II:deest then, yes? I mean, they imply it is attributed to Haydn at least, but don't give any Hob #, so properly this is what it would be called. If it actually F2, they would surely have put it. The problem with going by instrumentation is that that particular one was one of the most common in the era. Haydn has a set of 3 of them from 1755, 2 in G and one in F, for example. Which is not to say he didn't write even more of them. Leipzig is CF Peters, IIRC, you might find info from them with a little email... :-\

I'll check Klocker's 4 disk box when I get home tonight and see if he has any deest works with that instrumentation. They might be the same piece and that will give some additional info. Or if you can find it online and listen to a sample, then you would know.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 22, 2015, 05:13:45 AM

It might have been just sloppiness of the booklet writer/editor. It says something about a copy of the piece in a Berlin library but of course this does not help much. If it is Hob. II: F2 than it is not a "deest", although among the dubious pieces.

From the backcover of the Kloecker I do not think it is included there because I cannot find it listed and it is not wind only but with at least one violin and viola (+ bass but a string bass is used in some editions of wind only music). F7 is winds only, I think.

it's really puzzling because that recording is from the 1990s, so not old and I have other discs containing "deest" pieces where the dubious authorship is at least mentioned, although many authors argue charitably pro Haydn's authorship. As long as there is no positive evidence for a different author it also seems o.k. to use Haydn's name as long as doubts are indicated somehow.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 22, 2015, 06:01:05 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on April 22, 2015, 05:13:45 AM
It might have been just sloppiness of the booklet writer/editor. It says something about a copy of the piece in a Berlin library but of course this does not help much. If it is Hob. II: F2 than it is not a "deest", although among the dubious pieces.

You are too kind; I don't think it is sloppiness, if it had a number they would have certainly provided it. There are actually several authenticated pieces which began life as deest, and still don't have a Hoboken number; him being dead has slowed that process down, and it seems no one else wants to take responsibility for it.

QuoteFrom the backcover of the Kloecker I do not think it is included there because I cannot find it listed and it is not wind only but with at least one violin and viola (+ bass but a string bass is used in some editions of wind only music). F7 is winds only, I think.

it's really puzzling because that recording is from the 1990s, so not old and I have other discs containing "deest" pieces where the dubious authorship is at least mentioned, although many authors argue charitably pro Haydn's authorship. As long as there is no positive evidence for a different author it also seems o.k. to use Haydn's name as long as doubts are indicated somehow.

Yes, you are right, I forgot the Klöcker was winds only. It is very authentic to use a violone ad libitum in wind only pieces. But that wouldn't change the 'winds only' aspect of the music. Just like using a bassoon in the basso continuo without even mentioning it in the score. Haydn took it for granted, in fact.

I am very much in favor of those works being recorded, I like the genre and think it is underrepresented. I'm just not crazy about attributing them to Haydn based on him being alive when they were written... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 22, 2015, 06:42:32 AM

As I said above, it is a very enjoyable well played disc. But I find the lack of information annoying.
I am also rather fond of woodwind music in general but I think I will forego the Kloecker complete one, at least for now.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 22, 2015, 07:06:37 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on April 22, 2015, 06:42:32 AM
As I said above, it is a very enjoyable well played disc. But I find the lack of information annoying.
I am also rather fond of woodwind music in general but I think I will forego the Kloecker complete one, at least for now.

Me too, and I am generally a fan of Klöcker, but I rarely play anything from that box, since I have all the authentic works on good PI recordings.

I am very down on disks which tell you nothing. It makes me feel that maybe the musicians involved don't particularly care, and if they don't, why should I?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 22, 2015, 08:02:47 AM

But it is really odd because it is comparatively rarely recorded music, not some warhorse. So both musicians as well as producers and label must have cared in some sense...
I have a couple of the older issues of Huss' series on Koch and the booklets (usually written by Huss himself) are exemplary. I am not ready to spring for the whole boxes on BIS but maybe I'll get a few more of the singles if I find them cheaply.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 22, 2015, 08:27:50 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on April 22, 2015, 08:02:47 AM
But it is really odd because it is comparatively rarely recorded music, not some warhorse. So both musicians as well as producers and label must have cared in some sense...
I have a couple of the older issues of Huss' series on Koch and the booklets (usually written by Huss himself) are exemplary. I am not ready to spring for the whole boxes on BIS but maybe I'll get a few more of the singles if I find them cheaply.

They are a bit cheaper now that the BIS boxes are out. 5 years ago, I was seeing some of them going for as much as $150!!!

I have 2 or 3 of the originals too. The booklets in the BIS boxes appear to be compilations (although I never compared them side by side) of the smaller booklets into two large ones. Huss wrote a book on Haydn, never translated from the German original, you could well be able to find it over there. It is supposed to be very good, although I wouldn't know. He has some controversial (I like them) dating ideas in the booklets, but otherwise seems to be pretty close to centrist in his beliefs. Nice to read liner notes where the writer wasn't just passing gas... ::)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on April 22, 2015, 11:04:55 AM

HAYDN 2032 - Volume 2 "Il Filosofo" with Giovanni Antonini & Il Giardino Armonico has been released. Sym. 22, 46, 47. It isn't on ArkivMusic or Amazon (USA) yet.

a promo video with good bits from sym. 22. The sound was a knockout for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1C5D8kByecA

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 22, 2015, 11:39:10 AM

Quote from: Old Listener on April 22, 2015, 11:04:55 AM
HAYDN 2032 - Volume 2 "Il Filosofo" with Giovanni Antonini & Il Giardino Armonico has been released. Sym. 22, 46, 47. It isn't on ArkivMusic or Amazon (USA) yet.

a promo video with good bits from sym. 22. The sound was a knockout for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1C5D8kByecA

Yes, I just found out about it just this AM and checked it out on Outhere's website. Read the liner notes et al. The WF Bach sinfonia looks very interesting too, along with those 3 Haydn's (22, 46 & 47). Now, if it will only arrive stateside! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 22, 2015, 11:45:17 AM

I identified the piece!
It is in fact Hob II: F2. A simple google search for hob II F2 yielded both the Linos recording on youtube as well as a Russian recording of the piece. Maybe there is an alternative issue of the Capriccio disc with more information...or it was provided for the download offers. I had not thought about such a simple possibility...

http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=C10719

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=112WGHk9_sc

[asin]B007O0XALU[/asin]

But no additional clues about possible authorship or transmission of that piece.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 22, 2015, 05:18:14 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on April 22, 2015, 11:45:17 AM
I identified the piece!
It is in fact Hob II: F2. A simple google search for hob II F2 yielded both the Linos recording on youtube as well as a Russian recording of the piece. Maybe there is an alternative issue of the Capriccio disc with more information...or it was provided for the download offers. I had not thought about such a simple possibility...

http://www.naxos.com/catalogue/item.asp?item_code=C10719

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=112WGHk9_sc

[asin]B007O0XALU[/asin]

But no additional clues about possible authorship or transmission of that piece.

Thanks for the Youtube link, listening to it now. Apparently the info did exist together in some versions, as you say, since it associates in searches.

I would reckon that if nothing definitively associating this work with Haydn has shown up by now, then it probbly never will. Which is a pity, if it IS authentic Haydn then it would be nice to add it to the oeuvre since we aren't just overrun with early music. And if it is someone else, then it would be nice to know that too. *sigh*

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 25, 2015, 04:17:17 PM

I got a couple of new disks within the last week; wish I had them earlier but I didn't know they existed then. Les Agrémens are a Belgian PI band of fine talent, Guy van Waas is a very good conductor, one of the group which is into history. Fortunately he is even more into music, as I found a few glaring errors in his text, but not in his performances! They are in a program of recreating music played at the Concert Spirituel, in which Haydn played a conspicuous part, as I have mentioned in recent essays. In addition to a Kraus symphony (Vb 143) which was sold by Tost to Siebert in 1788 (not 1786 as Waas states) as being composed by Haydn, and a LeBrun Oboe Concerto which is excellent, we have 2 Haydn symphonies on each disk; 45 & 85 on disk 1 and 82 & 86 on disk 2. Sound is excellent, as Ricercar tends to be, and performances are first rate. :)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn%20in%20Paris%20Les%20Agremens%201%20cover_zpsxsecsjyv.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn%20in%20Paris%20Les%20Agremens%202%20cover_zpswuzh6fn9.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 26, 2015, 02:58:32 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on April 22, 2015, 11:45:17 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=112WGHk9_sc

Haydn or not, it's still a delightful piece. Thanks for the link.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 26, 2015, 03:13:00 AM

This weekend I've been watching Phil Grabsky's In Search of Mozart (the first of the three films, and for reasons I can detail later, IMO he got better with each successor). The flick seems only actually to mention Haydn as a passing image (a cavalcade of portraits of the great older composers whom he got to meet on his youthful travels); and even later on, when the narration discusses events in Mozart's life, but what we are seeing on the screen and listening to is a quartet playing one of the "Haydn" quartets (the d minor quartet, in particular, IIRC), no word on the matter at all.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 26, 2015, 05:00:28 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on April 26, 2015, 03:39:23 AM
I only knew Harry Christophers from his work with The Sixteen, but this Haydn disc is a good PI recording; nice program, too.

[asin]B00E5NXPOG[/asin]

He's also recorded the Mozart Requiem with the same group.

Yes it is, on both counts. Aisslinn Nosky does a fine job on the VC too. Apparently Christophers has been running the H&H for some time now, it was good for them to get someone of that stature after Hogwood left them a few years ago. Now, if they would do as much Haydn as they do Handel... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 26, 2015, 05:04:24 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 26, 2015, 03:13:00 AM
This weekend I've been watching Phil Grabsky's In Search of Mozart (the first of the three films, and for reasons I can detail later, IMO he got better with each successor). The flick seems only actually to mention Haydn as a passing image (a cavalcade of portraits of the great older composers whom he got to meet on his youthful travels); and even later on, when the narration discusses events in Mozart's life, but what we are seeing on the screen and listening to is a quartet playing one of the "Haydn" quartets (the d minor quartet, in particular, IIRC), no word on the matter at all.

Truth is, no Mozartian wants to take an sort of risk that anyone should have been a positive influence on Mozart or his muusic, since their credo is 'He Was SUI GENERIS'. Beethovenians re the same way. Haydnists are far more open-minded, if you are intelligent enough to appreciate Haydn then you are open-minded enough to realize that no composer exists in a vacuum.

And I say that as a big fan of all three... 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 26, 2015, 07:01:31 AM

Haydn wrote for some strange instruments in his time (serpent, anyone?) but one of the oddest was this little whizbox played by the King of Naples. This week I checked it out, and you can too, right here!

Organ grinder sure, but where's the monkey? (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/04/1786-the-music-part-2-.html)

Enjoy!
Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2015, 12:16:18 PM

I wish I could be in Ohio this weekend:

The Cleveland Orchestra performs:

HAYDN - Overture to L'isola disabitata
HAYDN - Concerto for Two Horns in E-flat major, Hob.VIId/6
HAYDN - Piano Concerto No. 11 in D major (Marc-André Hamelin)
HAYDN - Symphony No. 101 ("The Clock")

Matthew Halls, conducting http://schwalbeandpartners.com/project/matthew-halls-conductor/

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 27, 2015, 12:42:44 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 27, 2015, 12:16:18 PM
I wish I could be in Ohio this weekend:

The Cleveland Orchestra performs:

HAYDN - Overture to L'isola disabitata
HAYDN - Concerto for Two Horns in E-flat major, Hob.VIId/6
HAYDN - Piano Concerto No. 11 in D major (Marc-André Hamelin)
HAYDN - Symphony No. 101 ("The Clock")

Matthew Halls, conducting http://schwalbeandpartners.com/project/matthew-halls-conductor/

Sarge

Hell, I would meet you there! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 28, 2015, 01:14:33 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 26, 2015, 07:01:31 AM
Organ grinder sure, but where's the monkey? (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/04/1786-the-music-part-2-.html)

Quibble: the Kingdom of Naples was not that small: it encompassed all the south of the Italian peninsula, plus Sicily, where Ferdinand IV was actually Ferdinand II. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on April 28, 2015, 02:10:01 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 28, 2015, 01:14:33 AM
Quibble: the Kingdom of Naples was not that small: it encompassed all the south of the Italian peninsula, plus Sicily, where Ferdinand IV was actually Ferdinand II. :D

Quibble: the Kingdom of Naples never included Sicily. When in 1816 it was merged with Sicily, it was called the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on April 28, 2015, 02:18:22 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 26, 2015, 07:01:31 AM
Haydn wrote for some strange instruments in his time (serpent, anyone?) but one of the oddest was this little whizbox played by the King of Naples. This week I checked it out, and you can too, right here!

Organ grinder sure, but where's the monkey? (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/04/1786-the-music-part-2-.html)

Enjoy!
Thanks,
8)

It's a very interesting essay, Gurn! I have enjoyed to see played an actual lyra-organizzata; nice video. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on April 28, 2015, 02:24:42 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 26, 2015, 07:01:31 AM

Organ grinder sure, but where's the monkey? (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/04/1786-the-music-part-2-.html)

As an aside, Gurn, I think you need to do some room in your essays to include your "alternative titles"; quite in the line of Haydn's sense of humor, if I'm asked. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 28, 2015, 02:32:11 AM

Quote from: Gordo on April 28, 2015, 02:10:01 AM
Quibble: the Kingdom of Naples never included Sicily.

Quibble: Charles Duke of Parma conquered the two kingdoms in 1734 and in 1735 was crowned as Charles VII of Naples and Sicily. Upon succeeding to the Spanish throne as Charles III, he abdicated the thrones of the two kingdoms in favor of his son Ferdinand, who became Ferdinand IV of Naples and Ferdinand III of Sicily. So technically you are right, they were two separate kingdoms but being as they were in personal union, everybody counted them as one --- everybody except Napoleon, that is. :D

Now, the reverse is true: the Kingdom of Sicily oftenly included Naples, but that´s quite another (hi)story... :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on April 28, 2015, 02:57:18 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 28, 2015, 02:32:11 AM
Quibble: Charles Duke of Parma conquered the two kingdoms in 1734 and in 1735 was crowned as Charles VII of Naples and Sicily. Upon succeeding to the Spanish throne as Charles III, he abdicated the thrones of the two kingdoms in favor of his son Ferdinand, who became Ferdinand IV of Naples and Ferdinand III of Sicily. So technically you are right, they were two separate kingdoms but being as they were in personal union, everybody counted them as one --- everybody except Napoleon, that is. :D

Now, the reverse is true: the Kingdom of Sicily oftenly included Naples, but that´s quite another (hi)story... :)

No doubt, the Kingdom of Naples was often united politically with Sicily, but officially were always (during a long period) independent kingdoms. It's even clear in the example you mention: the Duke of Parma (later also Charles III of Spain) wasn't Charles VII of Naples and Sicily, but Charles V of Sicily and Charles VII of Naples.

I haven't studied this particular case, but usually (in matter of autonomy and privileges) people defended fiercely this kind of technicalities.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 28, 2015, 03:11:03 AM

Quote from: Gordo on April 28, 2015, 02:57:18 AM
No doubt, the Kingdom of Naples was often united politically with Sicily, but officially were always (during a long period) independent kingdoms. It's even clear in the example you mention: the Duke of Parma (later also Charles III of Spain) wasn't Charles VII of Naples and Sicily, but Charles V of Sicily and Charles VII of Naples.

I haven't studied this particular case, but usually (in matter of autonomy and privileges) people defended fiercely this kind of technicalities.

That is true and nowhere more apparent than in Spain itself, where the Kingdom of Aragon (itself rather a federation of smaller units than a unified state) fiercely maintained its legislative and judicial autonomy from the Kingdom of Castille and Leon, to the point where a fugitive from the latter often found asylum in the former and could not be prosecuted further since the laws were different in the two realms (as per Don Quijote). It is only from 1715 onwards that this autonomy was suppressed, and only because Aragon sided with the Austrians in the War of Spanish Succession. Had they supported the Bourbons, they might have continued to go their way. :D :D :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 28, 2015, 03:17:39 AM

Quote from: Gordo on April 28, 2015, 02:57:18 AM
No doubt, the Kingdom of Naples was often united politically with Sicily, but officially were always (during a long period) independent kingdoms. It's even clear in the example you mention: the Duke of Parma (later also Charles III of Spain) wasn't Charles VII of Naples and Sicily, but Charles V of Sicily and Charles VII of Naples.

I haven't studied this particular case, but usually (in matter of autonomy and privileges) people defended fiercely this kind of technicalities.

In our day, we have to look to places like Texas for this kind of entertainment 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2015, 04:19:40 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 28, 2015, 01:14:33 AM
Quibble: the Kingdom of Naples was not that small: it encompassed all the south of the Italian peninsula, plus Sicily, where Ferdinand IV was actually Ferdinand II. :D

Only after 1816, when it became The Kingdom of the Two Sicilies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_the_Two_Sicilies). Ferdinand IV then became king of both Peninsular Sicily (Naples) and the Island.

As a Texan, I would classify even both of them put together as 'small'. Sorry.... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2015, 04:21:02 AM

Quote from: Gordo on April 28, 2015, 02:18:22 AM
It's a very interesting essay, Gurn! I have enjoyed to see played an actual lyra-organizzata; nice video. :)

Thanks, I really enjoyed the video too, I haven't seen any solo playing before and was curious how all of that came together. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 28, 2015, 04:23:25 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2015, 04:19:40 AM
Only after 1816, when it became The Kingdom of the Two Sicilies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_the_Two_Sicilies). Ferdinand IV then became king of both Peninsular Sicily (Naples) and the Island.

As a Texan, I would classify even both of them put together as 'small'. Sorry.... :D

8)

Though they be small they are fierce.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2015, 04:32:09 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 28, 2015, 04:23:25 AM
Though they be small they are fierce.

Right... of course, we don't care, we don't have to. We're Texas! $:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 28, 2015, 04:39:27 AM

Nobody's gonna tell Texas who they gotta care about!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2015, 04:47:34 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 28, 2015, 04:39:27 AM
Nobody's gonna tell Texas who they gotta care about!

True enough. But to get away from being artificially snobby to irk Florestan, I might point out that where you're from makes a huge difference in your perception of what 'big' is.

All of Italy today, which includes the 'Two Sicilies' = 116,347 mi²

Texas = 268,820 mi²

I feel justified... 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 28, 2015, 04:56:55 AM

How much olive oil does Texas produce? 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2015, 04:59:07 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 28, 2015, 04:56:55 AM
How much olive oil does Texas produce? 8)

Hard to find any extra virgins around here, believe me! >:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 28, 2015, 05:05:52 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2015, 04:47:34 AM
True enough. But to get away from being artificially snobby to irk Florestan, I might point out that where you're from makes a huge difference in your perception of what 'big' is.

All of Italy today, which includes the 'Two Sicilies' = 116,347 mi²

Texas = 268,820 mi²

I feel justified... 0:)

8)

Well, big is not automatically great. In matters musical, for instance, The Kingdom of Naples (alone), gazillions - Texas, nil. (I actually wanted to give the latter one point for your Haydn site, but I just realized it was in the virtual space, so not Texan at all.) ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 28, 2015, 05:18:02 AM

For years I had no idea what "two Sicilies" was supposed to mean as there obviously was only *one* island of Sicily... But it sounds very romantic, if not quite as nice as "Castilia, Leon and Aragon"

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 28, 2015, 05:30:36 AM

I should think Napoli would take umbrage at being "the other Sicily" 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2015, 05:38:00 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 28, 2015, 05:05:52 AM
Well, big is not automatically great. In matters musical, for instance, The Kingdom of Naples (alone), gazillions - Texas, nil. (I actually wanted to give the latter one point for your Haydn site, but I just realized it was in the virtual space, so not Texan at all.) ;D ;D ;D

Hey, we got Willie Nelson. 'nuff said. >:(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2015, 05:39:30 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on April 28, 2015, 05:18:02 AM
For years I had no idea what "two Sicilies" was supposed to mean as there obviously was only *one* island of Sicily... But it sounds very romantic, if not quite as nice as "Castilia, Leon and Aragon"

Me too. One of the biggest benefits of writing this blog is that it forces me to go look up stuff that I always wanted to know about, but never took the time for. Knowing I am going to have to argue with Florestan every time, I always prepare well now. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 28, 2015, 05:42:58 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2015, 05:38:00 AM
Hey, we got Willie Nelson. 'nuff said. >:(

8)

Oh my, how could I forget him? He singlehandedly balances out the whole Neapolitan School. ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 28, 2015, 05:45:12 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2015, 05:39:30 AM
Me too. One of the biggest benefits of writing this blog is that it forces me to go look up stuff that I always wanted to know about, but never took the time for. Knowing I am going to have to argue with Florestan every time, I always prepare well now. :)

8)

Well, a kick in the ass makes one take two steps forward, ain´t it? ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 28, 2015, 05:57:10 AM

Just for the record, I learned about the "two Sicilies" some time ago (that it was two kingdoms, not two islands) but I do appreciate the detailed account by Gordo and Florestan! I think a few years ago a historian published a book about several "vanished countries" that were quite important for centuries but have ceased to exist as political entities a long time ago (like e.g. Burgundy).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2015, 06:13:54 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on April 28, 2015, 05:57:10 AM
Just for the record, I learned about the "two Sicilies" some time ago (that it was two kingdoms, not two islands) but I do appreciate the detailed account by Gordo and Florestan! I think a few years ago a historian published a book about several "vanished countries" that were quite important for centuries but have ceased to exist as political entities a long time ago (like e.g. Burgundy).

Pre-Congress of Vienna Europe is chockful of countries like that. Having no other frame of reference, I always thought of them as 'States', but really they were much more than that. But there was always something bigger than them, whether it was a neighboring large country or a confederation or the Holy Roman Empire. For anyone to be completely fluent in all those variations, through time, will be quite a feat, I think. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2015, 06:15:21 AM

Quote from: Soapy Molloy on April 28, 2015, 06:09:59 AM
Not sure if it's the one you meant, but I can recommend this fascinating book on that exact subject:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51gNz9X2kbL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Vanished Kingdoms The History of Half-Forgotten Europe
Norman Davies

Thanks for that, Soapy. It looks very interesting, I'm going to dig it up. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 28, 2015, 06:19:59 AM

Quote from: Soapy Molloy on April 28, 2015, 06:09:59 AM
Not sure if it's the one you meant, but I can recommend this fascinating book on that exact subject:
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51gNz9X2kbL._SY344_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)
Vanished Kingdoms The History of Half-Forgotten Europe
Norman Davies

Well, arguably much more than half of Italy´s musical (and generally cultural) reputation should actually be assigned to vanished states. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 28, 2015, 06:23:12 AM

Unless there is a very similar book out there, I am pretty certain I meant this one. Thanks for the clarification!

As I am from the middle of Germany I am aware of many of these vanished states, duchies, counties etc. But they were usually small and here they are often preserved in some local names (of cities, districts, counties, parishes etc.) and of course often in the actual buildings (castles etc.). And as you said they were all part of the Holy Roman Empire (but so were the states of Italy).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 28, 2015, 06:27:21 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 28, 2015, 06:19:59 AM
Well, arguably much more than half of Italy´s musical (and generally cultural) reputation should actually be assigned to vanished states. ;D

Chap named Lorenzo would have a word with you out back . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2015, 06:53:50 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 28, 2015, 06:19:59 AM
Well, arguably much more than half of Italy´s musical (and generally cultural) reputation should actually be assigned to vanished states. ;D

Well yes, of course. The huge consolidation of 'minor' (non-judgmental) states which took place in the mid-19th century went a long way towards making it easier for us to say "just Italy" or "just Germany", but it also took away our precision. Mozart wasn't Austrian from the city of Salzburg, he was a Salzburger, eventually transplanted to Austria. Just as his father was a Bavarian from Augsburg. Easier to say what we say, but not correct, really. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 28, 2015, 07:13:42 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2015, 06:53:50 AM
Well yes, of course. The huge consolidation of 'minor' (non-judgmental) states which took place in the mid-19th century went a long way towards making it easier for us to say "just Italy" or "just Germany", but it also took away our precision. Mozart wasn't Austrian from the city of Salzburg, he was a Salzburger, eventually transplanted to Austria. Just as his father was a Bavarian from Augsburg. Easier to say what we say, but not correct, really. :-\

8)

Just as Monteverdi was a Mantuan, Vivaldi was a Venetian and Arcangelo Corelli a Papalian. Not one of them had any idea about Italy and Italians.

As Massimo d´Azzeglio put it in 1861, "we have made Italy; now we must make Italians". ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2015, 07:18:25 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 28, 2015, 07:13:42 AM
Just as Monteverdi was a Mantuan, Vivaldi was a Venetian and Arcangelo Corelli a Papalian. Not one of them had any idea about Italy and Italians.

As Massimo d´Azzeglio put it in 1861, "we have made Italy; now we must make Italians". ;D

Exactly. Having one name for all is much more suited to the modern idiom, in which remembering things is too much trouble. It should be easier still; I vote for "Euros".... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2015, 07:25:23 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 28, 2015, 07:13:42 AM
Just as Monteverdi was a Mantuan, Vivaldi was a Venetian and Arcangelo Corelli a Papalian. Not one of them had any idea about Italy and Italians.

As Massimo d´Azzeglio put it in 1861, "we have made Italy; now we must make Italians". ;D

Although the one thing which did unite them was language; Mozart actually did think of himself as 'German' because that was his native language (dialectic differences aside). And this despite the fact that he was a Salzburger living in Austria. And he thought of Salieri as "Italian" for the same reason, even though he was, I believe, a Venetian.

Haydn was being charged a large extra fee to join the Tonkünstler-Societät in Vienna specifically because he was a foreigner since he lived, at the time, in Eisenstadt, which was almost 30 miles away! He also considered himself a "German", even though there was really no such place, just a language.

"Nationalism" is a state of mind. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 28, 2015, 07:56:56 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 28, 2015, 07:13:42 AM
Just as Monteverdi was a Mantuan, Vivaldi was a Venetian and Arcangelo Corelli a Papalian. Not one of them had any idea about Italy and Italians.

Well, and in the 20^th c., Stravinsky wanted to have the Canticum sacrum and the Monumentum programmed together, but the Venetians refused to have the music of Gesualdo performed at St Mark's.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on April 28, 2015, 12:02:15 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2015, 07:25:23 AM"Nationalism" is a state of mind. :) 8)

Oh, nationalism is itself a state? 0:)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2015, 07:18:25 AM
Exactly. Having one name for all is much more suited to the modern idiom, in which remembering things is too much trouble. It should be easier still; I vote for "Euros".... :D

8)

Watch it, or I'll call you a Yankee. 8)

As long as we're in the Haus, I should say that I'll soon be spinning the Mosaïques' Op. 20/30/33.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2015, 12:20:56 PM

Quote from: North Star on April 28, 2015, 12:02:15 PM
Oh, nationalism is itself a state? 0:)
Watch it, or I'll call you a Yankee. 8)

As long as we're in the Haus, I should say that I'll soon be spinning the Mosaïques' Op. 20/30/33.

Yes, if you don't mind... ;)

I'm actually quite proud to be a Yankee, no offense taken. I thought it was just the Brits who hated being Euros... ?

Op 30? Guess my Old-Timer's Syndrome has kicked in... ???

For the rest, though, sounds great. I shall join you later. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on April 28, 2015, 12:29:50 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2015, 12:20:56 PM
Yes, if you don't mind... ;)

I'm actually quite proud to be a Yankee, no offense taken. I thought it was just the Brits who hated being Euros... ?

Op 30? Guess my Old-Timer's Syndrome has kicked in... ???

For the rest, though, sounds great. I shall join you later. :)

8)

No Op. 30 of course, those are kbd sonatas.
And I have nothing against the Union, just don't expect that being in there makes our national identities vanish - perhaps unfortunately.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on May 02, 2015, 03:47:51 AM

Bach vs. Haydn 1788/90

(https://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4015023242937.jpg)

This looks as an important new release.

Listened to via ClassicsOnline HD, apparently it will be available in Europe the next week.

I have just listened to the Haydn disk and it's predictably superb.

Actually, I don't know if I have heard before a version better balanced than this, both interpretative as sonically.

QuoteCD 1 [63:05]
Joseph Haydn: Trios for piano, flute & violoncello
Barthold Kuijken (flute), Wieland Kuijken (cello), Piet Kuijken (fortepiano)

tuning pitch a1 = 430 Hz
Barthold Kuijken: Eight-keyed grenadilla wood flute, replica after August Grenser, Dresden 1787 (Rudolf Tutz, Innsbruck, 1991)
Wieland Kuijken: Violoncello from the second half of the 18th century with the use of older parts, possibly by Andrea Amati (1564)
Piet Kuijken: Original fortepiano by Longman Clementi, London 1799, 68 keys (FF-c4); damper, una/2 corda; English stoss action; straight stringing (collection Chris Maene)

QuoteCD 2 [44:24]
Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach: Quartets for harpsichord, flute & viola
Barthold Kuijken (flute), Ann Cnop (viola), Ewald Demeyere (harpsichord)

tuning pitch a1 = 415 Hz
Barthold Kuijken: single-keyed boxwood flute, replica after August Grenser, Dresden ca. 1760 (Alain Weemaels, Brussels, 1990)
Ann Cnop: Anonymous saxon viola from the second half of the 18th century
Ewald Demeyere: French two-manual harpsichord (FF- e3), replica after Henri Hemsch, Paris 1736 (Augusto Bonza, Turbigo, 2003)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 02, 2015, 05:25:24 AM

Quote from: Gordo on May 02, 2015, 03:47:51 AM
Bach vs. Haydn 1788/90

(https://www.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/4015023242937.jpg)

This looks as an important new release.

Listened to via ClassicsOnline HD, apparently it will be available in Europe the next week.

I have just listened to the Haydn disk and it's predictably superb.

Actually, I don't know if I have heard before a version better balanced than this, both interpretative as sonically.

:)

Oy! More torture. Must say, I can hardly wait for this one to hit the shelves! Other than the questionable use of 'vs.' in the title, it looks perfect.

I haven't got that CPE music, as nearly as I can tell by a quick look at my shelves. I'm bound to like it though, and conceptually it will be nice to hear these works played by players of the same sensibility, taking out a variable from the stylistic puzzle.

Thanks for posting this, Gordo, although you've made today seem a little mundane, tomorrow looks way better! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 02, 2015, 05:27:42 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 02, 2015, 05:25:24 AM
Oy! More torture. Must say, I can hardly wait for this one to hit the shelves! Other than the questionable use of 'vs.' in the title, it looks perfect.

It's a gimmick; and some of my colleagues do earnestly embrace the idea that they "need" a gimmick in our changed publication environment.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 02, 2015, 05:38:19 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on May 02, 2015, 05:27:42 AM
It's a gimmick; and some of my colleagues do earnestly embrace the idea that they "need" a gimmick in our changed publication environment.

Yes, you're right. If you recall, I went on at some length into the background of that 'Bach vs. Haydn' thing in a recent essay. The problem with gimmicks is that they promote some false ideas, even 230 years ex post facto. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 02, 2015, 05:52:57 AM

The Sans-Souci Sorcerer and the Esterháza Eskhaton in the grudge-match of the Century!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 02, 2015, 05:54:33 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on May 02, 2015, 05:52:57 AM
The Sans-Souci Sorcerer and the Esterháza Eskhaton in the grudge-match of the Century!

:D Now that would sell tickets!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on May 02, 2015, 05:55:03 AM

No doubt, it's basically a gimmick, but a good one.

In the liner notes Barthold Kuijken compares and explains carefully both groups of works, expressing a high degree of admiration for both of them.

QuoteFor me, C. P. E. Bach's Quartets and Haydn's Trios are fascinating, highly refined and expressive, but each respective work group in a completely different way. it is known that C.P.E. Bach valued Haydn's compositions very highly, and that Haydn (who incidentally owned a copy of two of these C.P.E. Bach Quartets), like Mozart and Beethoven, greatly cherished C.P.E. Bach. Mozart said of him, "He is the father, we are the boys". But children do not always follow in their fathers' footsteps...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on May 02, 2015, 06:09:49 AM

I agree. It strikes me as much better gimmick than most, and one that actually makes some kind of musical and musicological sense.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 02, 2015, 06:22:44 AM

Quote from: Gordo on May 02, 2015, 05:55:03 AM
No doubt, it's basically a gimmick, but a good one.

In the liner notes Barthold Kuijken compares and explains carefully both groups of works, expressing a high degree of admiration for both of them.

:)

Bach vs. Haydn (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/02/1784-the-year.html) Yes, but back in the day it was alleged to be a real thing, and it wasn't, in fact. I have seen mention of it from time to time as though it was a real thing, I just hate to see those thoughts perpetuated. However, your quote from Kuijken is more representative of reality, pleased to see. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on May 02, 2015, 11:39:23 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 02, 2015, 06:22:44 AM

Bach vs. Haydn (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/02/1784-the-year.html) Yes, but back in the day it was alleged to be a real thing, and it wasn't, in fact. I have seen mention of it from time to time as though it was a real thing, I just hate to see those thoughts perpetuated. However, your quote from Kuijken is more representative of reality, pleased to see. :)

8)

I know and understand: regarding things one loves it's easy to be extraordinarily picky. And, as a matter of fact, a well established mistake is the hardest thing to remove in the world. Just make a wrong attribution and I'm sure it will survive for centuries!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 02, 2015, 12:10:03 PM

Quote from: Gordo on May 02, 2015, 11:39:23 AM
I know and understand: regarding things one loves it's easy to be extraordinarily picky. And, as a matter of fact, a well established mistake is the hardest thing to remove in the world. Just make a wrong attribution and I'm sure it will survive for centuries!

:D You have that right! Just look at things like K1 numbers, or the famous "By Joseph Haydn (attributed)" and there you go.

Yes, it bothers me sometimes that the more I learn, the more I had wrong at the beginning, despite being well-meaning. The 'good stories', true or not, are the ones which live on! :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on May 02, 2015, 10:03:23 PM

I heard there is going to be a part II, but with a better cover. The two men will be on the cover, brandishing batons at one another. Bach will be made up to look like Arnold Schwarzeneggar, with the speaking blurb "I'll be Bach!" and Haydn will be in the likeness of Rutger Hauer, and he'll reply "I won't be Haydn!" (although, presumably, he will). They'll both be wearing their underwear on the outside of their britches, and have capes. ;D ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 03, 2015, 05:54:53 AM

Quote from: Mookalafalas on May 02, 2015, 10:03:23 PM
I heard there is going to be a part II, but with a better cover. The two men will be on the cover, brandishing batons at one another. Bach will be made up to look like Arnold Schwarzeneggar, with the speaking blurb "I'll be Bach!" and Haydn will be in the likeness of Rutger Hauer, and he'll reply "I won't be Haydn!" (although, presumably, he will). They'll both be wearing their underwear on the outside of their britches, and have capes. ;D ;D

:D :D That'll work. We could get this guy to do the cover:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/haydn2.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on May 03, 2015, 07:51:34 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 03, 2015, 05:54:53 AM
:D :D That'll work. We could get this guy to do the cover:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/haydn2.jpg)

8)

Perfect!! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on May 03, 2015, 08:35:55 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 03, 2015, 05:54:53 AM
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/haydn2.jpg)

If I were forced to choose just one quote of Haydn to define his artistic persona, I'm not sure if wouldn't be this one. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 03, 2015, 08:56:08 AM

Quote from: Gordo on May 03, 2015, 08:35:55 AM
If I were forced to choose just one quote of Haydn to define his artistic persona, I'm not sure if wouldn't be this one. :)

Yes, it IS pretty definitive. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 03, 2015, 11:21:14 AM

We tend to think that quality and fame go hand in hand; if it isn't famous it must be shabby... but when you have over 1000 works, not all of them can be famous, but they can all be excellent! I took a look at some like that this week, have a look if you'd like.

The quality of fame is not strained... (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/05/1786-the-music-part-3.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 09, 2015, 09:08:13 AM

I guess you all know by now that I like Haydn's music unreservedly. But even so, there are certain works which stand out above all the rest, for a variety of reasons. This week I took a look at one of them, and I think it is one of my own better efforts. See if you agree. :)

The Seven Last Words (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/05/1786-the-music-part-4-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on May 09, 2015, 11:56:58 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 09, 2015, 09:08:13 AM
I guess you all know by now that I like Haydn's music unreservedly. But even so, there are certain works which stand out above all the rest, for a variety of reasons. This week I took a look at one of them, and I think it is one of my own better efforts. See if you agree. :)

The Seven Last Words (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/05/1786-the-music-part-4-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Thanks for this effort, Gurn; this wonderful work deserves it.

I recall some years ago I commented very favorably the Brautigam cycle of Haydn's keyboard music. I added that the crown of this cycle was the interpretation of the Last Seven Words (last volume, IIRC). Quickly one of our members said that this idea was a non-sense, as it wasn't a work originally composed for keyboard, and wasn't even directly prepared by Haydn (just revised). I knew it then and I haven't forgotten it so far, but the Seven Last Words have this power... and even its anomalous keyboard version should be ranked as one of the greatest works written for keyboard. Amen! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 09, 2015, 01:43:21 PM

Quote from: Gordo on May 09, 2015, 11:56:58 AM
Thanks for this effort, Gurn; this wonderful work deserves it.

I recall some years ago I commented very favorably the Brautigam cycle of Haydn's keyboard music. I added that the crown of this cycle was the interpretation of the Last Seven Words (last volume, IIRC). Quickly one of our members said that this idea was a non-sense, as it wasn't a work originally composed for keyboard, and wasn't even directly prepared by Haydn (just revised). I knew it then and I haven't forgotten it so far, but the Seven Last Words have this power... and even its anomalous keyboard version should be ranked as one of the greatest works written for keyboard. Amen! ;D

Thanks, Gordo. Haydn had some high praise for that keyboard transcription, and I figure if it was good enough for him, what modern philosophes might think of it is really of no consequence. I will be covering it next year, whether it was by Haydn or not so. :)

This time, I was just trying to figure out how big of a dose of history to pass out with the music. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: torut on May 09, 2015, 05:02:21 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 09, 2015, 09:08:13 AM
I guess you all know by now that I like Haydn's music unreservedly. But even so, there are certain works which stand out above all the rest, for a variety of reasons. This week I took a look at one of them, and I think it is one of my own better efforts. See if you agree. :)

The Seven Last Words (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/05/1786-the-music-part-4-.html)

This was a very good read, thank you. Looking forward to the sequel about chamber/keyboard versions.

I too think the keyboard version is very good. That and the SQ version are my favorites.
I am listening to this SQ + mezzo version. So beautiful.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 03, 2015, 08:09:36 AM
But my new discovery of the season has been this hybrid; String Quartet and mezzo, thus playing the oratorio version for string quartet. Really quite striking.
(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn%207%20Last%20Words%20String%20Quartet%20w%20Mezzo%20Henschel%20Kelling%20cover_zpso4tddcpn.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 09, 2015, 05:05:26 PM

Quote from: torut on May 09, 2015, 05:02:21 PM
This was a very good read, thank you. Looking forward to the sequel about chamber/keyboard versions.

I too think the keyboard version is very good. That and the SQ version are my favorites.
I am listening to this SQ + mezzo version. So beautiful.

Thank you, Torut, pleased you enjoyed it. Also, you are the first who has got the Henschel version that I know of; I am delighted to not be the only one who has/likes it! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Camphy on May 17, 2015, 09:26:15 AM

Every week on the Dutch classical radio website, a few recordings (new releases) are made completely available for listening. This week, among others, there's this one:

(https://www.jpc.de/image/w220/front/0/3760014196713.jpg)

http://www.radio4.nl/plaatpaal/420/cd-van-de-week-haydn-il-filosofo-il-giardino-armonico

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 17, 2015, 09:28:30 AM

Quote from: Camphy on May 17, 2015, 09:26:15 AM
Every week on the Dutch classical radio website, a few recordings (new releases) are made completely available for listening. This week, among others, there's this one:

(https://www.jpc.de/image/w220/front/0/3760014196713.jpg)

http://www.radio4.nl/plaatpaal/420/cd-van-de-week-haydn-il-filosofo-il-giardino-armonico

Did you hear it!? It won't be released in USA until May 25th (IIRC), so I just saw the advert clips on Youtube. I'm looking forward to it, some of my favorite works, and some W. Bach too!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Camphy on May 17, 2015, 09:39:31 AM

Just listened to #46. Great clarity and great horn-playing. Antonini doesn't take the repeat in the minuet, yet he takes both in the last movement, which diminishes somewhat the effect of the trio return.

Gurn, or someone else, do you have any idea about why he would take this view? Just this week I heard Brüggen, who does the opposite.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 17, 2015, 10:34:00 AM

Quote from: Camphy on May 17, 2015, 09:39:31 AM
Just listened to #46. Great clarity and great horn-playing. Antonini doesn't take the repeat in the minuet, yet he takes both in the last movement, which diminishes somewhat the effect of the trio return.

Gurn, or someone else, do you have any idea about why he would take this view? Just this week I heard Brüggen, who does the opposite.

No, I didn't know he did it till now; rather a disappointing choice. :( The first rule for authentic performance of Classic Era music is that if there is a repeat, you play it. You may ornament it and all that, but you don't omit it. Classic Era music is all about balance, and omitting repeats throws that off. *sigh*

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 17, 2015, 10:36:31 AM

This week I finally got up to 1787, the year of some of my favorite works, like the Op 50 quartes and Symphony 88. I gave this a lot of thought and realized we are now well into that little period which could be justly called Haydn's Golden Age. See what you think...

The Golden Age? (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/05/1787-the-year.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Camphy on May 17, 2015, 10:55:58 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 17, 2015, 10:34:00 AM
No, I didn't know he did it till now; rather a disappointing choice. :( The first rule for authentic performance of Classic Era music is that if there is a repeat, you play it. You may ornament it and all that, but you don't omit it. Classic Era music is all about balance, and omitting repeats throws that off. *sigh*

8)

Sorry, Gurn, I didn't listen very carefully and jumped to conclusions based on the timings. He does take the first repeat, not the second, in all the minuets. He's just very quick, only two minutes in #46.
Of course it's the second part of the minuet, not the trio, which returns in the finale of #46.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Camphy on May 17, 2015, 11:00:09 AM

Thanks for your reply, though!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 17, 2015, 01:22:19 PM

Quote from: Camphy on May 17, 2015, 10:55:58 AM
Sorry, Gurn, I didn't listen very carefully and jumped to conclusions based on the timings. He does take the first repeat, not the second, in all the minuets. He's just very quick, only two minutes in #46.
Of course it's the second part of the minuet, not the trio, which returns in the finale of #46.

Yes, 46 is a fooler. Here is the little bit of score with the entire minuet & trio, which you will see is on 1 page!

Symphonies of 1772 (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/04/1772-the-music-part-1-.html)

The several versions I have range in time from 2:13 (Solomons) to 3:28 (Hogwood)

So 2 minutes is, just as you say, on the quick side. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Camphy on May 18, 2015, 09:29:15 AM

(http://i.prs.to/t_200/mdgmdg3010315.jpg)

"These thrilling arrangements based on Haydn's string quartets penned by Vincent Gambaro a good two hundred years ago seem to have been made with Dieter Klocker in mind.

These works mostly feature the clarinet in a solo role although Gambaro's movement combinations do not at all follow Haydn's prescriptions. Gambaro instead samples from quartet compositions from all of Haydn's compositional periods and joins together individual movements to form new cycles."

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/MDG/MDG3010315

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 18, 2015, 09:33:19 AM

On my Saturday morning drive to deliver two pieces of art to an exhibit which will open at the Cheshire County Historical Society in Keene, N.H., I took five CDs from the DRD symphonies cube. In fine: I entirely enjoy the performances. I don't recall hearing a harpsichord continuo in the D Major symphony (104) before; have to admit, I really like it. I should really have more to say, but I'm lovin' it! will have to do for now.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2015, 10:20:25 AM

Quote from: Camphy on May 18, 2015, 09:29:15 AM
(http://i.prs.to/t_200/mdgmdg3010315.jpg)

"These thrilling arrangements based on Haydn's string quartets penned by Vincent Gambaro a good two hundred years ago seem to have been made with Dieter Klocker in mind.

These works mostly feature the clarinet in a solo role although Gambaro's movement combinations do not at all follow Haydn's prescriptions. Gambaro instead samples from quartet compositions from all of Haydn's compositional periods and joins together individual movements to form new cycles."

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/MDG/MDG3010315

:D Yep, that is right up Klöcker's alley! This combination was not unusual back then, I have some Mozart works arrange into clarinet quartets too. Mixing up movements from different works, though, IS a tad unusual! :o

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on May 19, 2015, 04:29:41 AM

Haydn will feature in my blog later this week, because he's the only composer I listened to while I was away in April.

Except I didn't listen to a 'Paris' symphony while in Paris or a 'London' symphony while in London. I think in both cases I only listened on the way there. Sloppy I know.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 19, 2015, 04:54:57 AM

Quote from: orfeo on May 19, 2015, 04:29:41 AM
Haydn will feature in my blog later this week, because he's the only composer I listened to while I was away in April.

Except I didn't listen to a 'Paris' symphony while in Paris or a 'London' symphony while in London. I think in both cases I only listened on the way there. Sloppy I know.

Still, sounds like an interesting trip. Business or pleasure? I'll check you out when you publish. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on May 19, 2015, 05:00:01 AM

It was 3 days business (a conference) and about 28 days of "if I'm going all the way to Europe I'm going to make it worthwhile dammit" pleasure.

While I'm here... I've been listening to Symphony No.83 in G minor today. I can read in any number of places about the 'clucking' in the first movement. Why oh why isn't anyone talking about the amazing disruptions in the second movement? Honestly, Haydn has me on tenterhooks, waiting through 4 whole bars of fading 'accompaniment' for the 'music' to start again.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 19, 2015, 06:06:08 AM

Quote from: orfeo on May 19, 2015, 05:00:01 AM
It was 3 days business (a conference) and about 28 days of "if I'm going all the way to Europe I'm going to make it worthwhile dammit" pleasure.

While I'm here... I've been listening to Symphony No.83 in G minor today. I can read in any number of places about the 'clucking' in the first movement. Why oh why isn't anyone talking about the amazing disruptions in the second movement? Honestly, Haydn has me on tenterhooks, waiting through 4 whole bars of fading 'accompaniment' for the 'music' to start again.

Cool, glad the opportunity arose for you. :)

Well, I talked about it here (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/03/1785-the-music-part-1-.html) more than a mention. It is one of the highlights of the work, IMO. I call it 'blasts of dissonance', but disruptions is just as good. To me, the oboe part is one of the least interesting, typical of the 19th century to seize on it and use it to identify the work by. The whole alternation of affekt throughout the movement is the important thing, not what the individual parts are which are alternated. It is a character thing.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 19, 2015, 06:19:55 AM

Quote from: orfeo on May 19, 2015, 04:29:41 AM
Except I didn't listen to a 'Paris' symphony while in Paris or a 'London' symphony while in London. I think in both cases I only listened on the way there. Sloppy I know.

Not necessarily sloppy; you may just have wanted distance ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 19, 2015, 08:21:00 AM

Has anyone here ever seen this double CD? Might it be included in one of the big Warner boxes? Boy, I'd sure like to have it!

(http://www.muziekweb.nl/COVER/LARGE/FRONT/CJX4451.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on May 19, 2015, 08:41:56 AM

Voila!
first two discs of this box

[asin]B0017PB29A[/asin]

(I have not heard it)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 19, 2015, 10:14:30 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on May 19, 2015, 08:41:56 AM
Voila!
first two discs of this box

[asin]B0017PB29A[/asin]

(I have not heard it)

Oh, I have seen that box. I didn't notice Asperen's name on it before, thought it was all MI. Well, hell, I guess I'll have to run it down now! Thanks for finding it!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 19, 2015, 11:47:56 AM

Well, here is something I thought was pretty cool. It settles a complaint I have had for quite a while.

Since I have the other disks in that Warner box that Jo pointed out, I stubbornly went on looking for the original online. Google took me to Amazon.uk, who had it in their marketplace for $18 US delivered price in 'Very Good' condition. I have always liked to buy from Amazon UK, but they never recognized my Amazon US account or anything like that, it was as though I was a complete stranger every time I went there and I usually ended up at MDT or Presto instead. This time, they greeted me like a long last pal, asked me if I wanted to use my regular Amazon account (without Prime, but what the hell) and if I wanted to default my shipping address et al. The whole thing was as easy as buying here! About damn time they start acting like an international company! :)

8)

PS - the disk(s) will be here the 27th of May. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 19, 2015, 11:50:19 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 19, 2015, 11:47:56 AM
Well, here is something I thought was pretty cool. It settles a complaint I have had for quite a while.

Since I have the other disks in that Warner box that Jo pointed out, I stubbornly went on looking for the original online. Google took me to Amazon.uk, who had it in their marketplace for $18 US delivered price in 'Very Good' condition. I have always liked to buy from Amazon UK, but they never recognized my Amazon US account or anything like that, it was as though I was a complete stranger every time I went there and I usually ended up at MDT or Presto instead. This time, they greeted me like a long last pal, asked me if I wanted to use my regular Amazon account (without Prime, but what the hell) and if I wanted to default my shipping address et al. The whole thing was as easy as buying here! About damn time they start acting like an international company! :)

8)

PS - the disk(s) will be here the 27th of May. :)

Cool! (And Todd told us, when a couple of us were getting the Monteux box from Amazon Japan, the Prime is strictly US Amazon, there's some other protocol for the furriners.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 19, 2015, 12:01:47 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on May 19, 2015, 11:50:19 AM
Cool! (And Todd told us, when a couple of us were getting the Monteux box from Amazon Japan, the Prime is strictly US Amazon, there's some other protocol for the furriners.)

Yes, that didn't bother me at all, I didn't really expect 2 day shipping from (Germany actually) England! I was just glad they recognized my already established account so I didn't have to do it again, elsewhere. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on May 19, 2015, 01:08:26 PM

I am actually tempted by the trio box. I have the last disk with the Trio Fontenay but wasn't even aware of the (Erato) Manze/Ter Linden/Mathot recording and I think the Finnish recording of the flute trios was also well received. I put it on the list...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on May 19, 2015, 01:57:25 PM

Gurn, I am amused by your Amazon travails, because Amazon Australia didn't exist for years, and all it sells now is eBooks. The whole idea of being upset by Amazon treating you as a foreign stranger is... novel.

I don't bother keeping track of how many free download copies I've missed out on for the CDs I've bought from Amazon US. It's just the way it is.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 19, 2015, 02:03:44 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on May 19, 2015, 01:08:26 PM
I am actually tempted by the trio box. I have the last disk with the Trio Fontenay but wasn't even aware of the (Erato) Manze/Ter Linden/Mathot recording and I think the Finnish recording of the flute trios was also well received. I put it on the list...

I can highly recommend it. I have the Erato recording, also the flute trios recordng; it is as good as you've heard, if I didn't have La Gaia Scienza already (and every other available PI recording) I would have it as my main (I have it on Apex, they give it away, really!). I don't have the Fontenay Haydn, but I have their Mendelssohn recording from a few years ago and was very pleased with it. I have no doubt it is good, I just don't have a need for MI in this repertoire when I already have so many PI versions.

There are not nearly so many authentic early trios recordings though; Trio 1790, of course, which is the benchmark, and Gamerith Consort which is amazingly fine despite being totally obscure. I'm really looking forward to this one though, at very worst it is a great collector's edition item, and I don't think Gordo has it... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 19, 2015, 02:12:05 PM

Quote from: orfeo on May 19, 2015, 01:57:25 PM
Gurn, I am amused by your Amazon travails, because Amazon Australia didn't exist for years, and all it sells now is eBooks. The whole idea of being upset by Amazon treating you as a foreign stranger is... novel.

I don't bother keeping track of how many free download copies I've missed out on for the CDs I've bought from Amazon US. It's just the way it is.

Yes, I suppose it is a bit odd, although I hope it doesn't make me look like an Ugly American; it is more naivete dealing with international sales which has me. I was very loathe to do it before, then I tried MDT in Britain with good results which relaxed me a bit. It is just that for some reason I thought since I had an account since 1999 with Amazon, that Amazon UK and any of the other Amazons would just share the data and I would order there just like they were here. It is interesting that you would come here to buy; I nearly always discover new items in Europe and have to wait for them to show up over here, which could take months or more. The London Haydn Quartet Op 33 was out in England and Europe in October of 2012 but not in USA until June of 2013, for example. And that is Hyperion, a well distributed label.

Speaking of Australia, you ave a label there called ABC which has a nice little list I would like to have. Some of them are available here, but for a stout premium. I may nut up one day and do it though. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: snyprrr on May 19, 2015, 03:13:56 PM

I listened to my first Haydn since... well?...

It was the 'Lark', by that "Pilz" group we love,... but, I do recall like this Opus much, but, this time, the 'Lark' didn't strike me as the one(s) I liked. Huh. Guess I have to listen to the other five now, phhhhhh. ::)

It did exhibit that sense of "games". though,... that was clearly discernible: The whole thing end abruptly- Haydn's... a funny guy! ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on May 19, 2015, 03:48:43 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 19, 2015, 02:12:05 PM
It is interesting that you would come here to buy; I nearly always discover new items in Europe and have to wait for them to show up over here, which could take months or more.

The glacial pace at which I collect, compared to the GMG average, means "months or more" isn't any bother. Most of what I buy has been out for years.

QuoteSpeaking of Australia, you ave a label there called ABC which has a nice little list I would like to have. Some of them are available here, but for a stout premium. I may nut up one day and do it though. :-\

ABC is the government broadcaster (both TV and radio). They don't tend to make their stuff cheap over here, either. But yes, they are definitely the main game in town when it comes to classical recordings. Including a friend of mine, actually, though her repertoire is unlikely to be your taste... she knows Phillip Glass... why, of all the composers on the planet to have a working relationship with, did it have to be Phillip Glass? *cries*

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 19, 2015, 04:22:45 PM

Quote from: snyprrr on May 19, 2015, 03:13:56 PM
I listened to my first Haydn since... well?...

It was the 'Lark', by that "Pilz" group we love,... but, I do recall like this Opus much, but, this time, the 'Lark' didn't strike me as the one(s) I liked. Huh. Guess I have to listen to the other five now, phhhhhh. ::)

It did exhibit that sense of "games". though,... that was clearly discernible: The whole thing end abruptly- Haydn's... a funny guy! ;)

Yes, my friend, he is all of that. One of his main attractions, no? :laugh:

Yes, all of Op 64 is quite fine. It would be hard to pick a favorite. I like that Caspar da Salo 4tet, even though they tend to skip repeats and such. They have a very nice sense of pace and great tone. For .99 cents, it was a best buy for me! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 19, 2015, 04:27:10 PM

Quote from: orfeo on May 19, 2015, 03:48:43 PM
The glacial pace at which I collect, compared to the GMG average, means "months or more" isn't any bother. Most of what I buy has been out for years.

And most things I also collect glacially. The only things which I look to be on the cutting edge of are PI Haydn and Mozart. Everythng else comes at whatever speed it comes...

QuoteABC is the government broadcaster (both TV and radio). They don't tend to make their stuff cheap over here, either. But yes, they are definitely the main game in town when it comes to classical recordings. Including a friend of mine, actually, though her repertoire is unlikely to be your taste... she knows Phillip Glass... why, of all the composers on the planet to have a working relationship with, did it have to be Phillip Glass? *cries*

Yes, well, Phillip Glass. I see, hmmmm...... ;)

They have a fortepianist named Geoffrey Lancaster signed on who is really quite excellent, and he has 3 or 4 Haydn disks which I will have. Songs and canzonets, some of the Salomon chamber versions of symphonies, also some keyboard trios. Also a disk of solo sonatas, IIRC. I have him on an old Olympia disk playing, maybe, Dussek? In any case, he is really quite good. So I'll round those up as they come my way. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 20, 2015, 04:20:27 AM

Does anyone know if there is a 7 Last Words keyboard version performed on harpsichord? I know that at least one has been done (by a Brazilian lady back around 2000 or so), but since it isn't available there is no point in going with that. Can it really be that no one else has recorded it on cembalo? ???

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 20, 2015, 05:07:50 PM

I am posting this link here because there is no other place on the forum where hard core PIons congregate regularly. It isn't only Haydn, but it is certainly Haydn, the rest of it is just an amazing labor by this guy, kept up to date (I found a few things I was interested in which were released THIS MONTH!).

A list of all recordings on period instruments (http://www.wissensdrang.com/picds1.htm#H)

Enjoy!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on May 20, 2015, 09:09:59 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 20, 2015, 05:07:50 PM
I am posting this link here because there is no other place on the forum where hard core PIons congregate regularly. It isn't only Haydn, but it is certainly Haydn, the rest of it is just an amazing labor by this guy, kept up to date (I found a few things I was interested in which were released THIS MONTH!).

A list of all recordings on period instruments (http://www.wissensdrang.com/picds1.htm#H)

Enjoy!
8)

Wow! It's nowhere close to all PI recordings -- the stated goal is to cover the repertoire available on PI with minimal duplication, so: no Haydn Symphonies by Tafelmusik or Brüggen -- but still very interesting.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2015, 04:18:42 AM

Quote from: Pat B on May 20, 2015, 09:09:59 PM
Wow! It's nowhere close to all PI recordings -- the stated goal is to cover the repertoire available on PI with minimal duplication, so: no Haydn Symphonies by Tafelmusik or Brüggen -- but still very interesting.

Yes, it appears to be an attempt to allow you to collect whatever music is available by a composer on PI. It even highlights items which would be duplicated if you already had one further up the list. I did more exploring after I posted the link and learned some more about it. This rascal here will eventually break me.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 25, 2015, 09:58:38 AM

It's funny how some things are just so hard to find information about, while others are overrun with it. And it isn't always the ones you would expect. Anyway, I spent some time this holiday weekend looking at (and listening to!) the symphonies of the year, #88 & 89. Check out what I found, if you'd like.

This guy's ~~toast~~... um, Tost! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/05/1787-the-music-part-1-.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on May 25, 2015, 12:56:03 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 25, 2015, 09:58:38 AM
It's funny how some things are just so hard to find information about, while others are overrun with it. And it isn't always the ones you would expect. Anyway, I spent some time this holiday weekend looking at (and listening to!) the symphonies of the year, #88 & 89. Check out what I found, if you'd like.

This guy's ~~toast~~... um, Tost! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/05/1787-the-music-part-1-.html)

Thanks!
8)

Very amusing. I'll tell you one odd thing, Tost 3 (op 64) is dated 1790.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 25, 2015, 01:00:30 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on May 25, 2015, 12:56:03 PM

Very amusing. I'll tell you one odd thing, Tost 3 (op 64) is dated 1790.

Well, the odds are that Haydn didn't actually dedicate any of them to Tost. He gave him 54 & 55 to sell for him in Paris, and had some other sort of deal with him on 64, but he never dedicated them (to anyone), Tost did that himself, in a shameless bit of self-promotion. Same with symphonies 88 & 89. (54 & 55 are from 1788, BTW). :)

8)

Title: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 25, 2015, 04:32:07 PM

Bet you didn't know Haydn dedicated his 71st Symphony to me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on May 25, 2015, 11:47:37 PM

Does anyone happen to know which of Gyrowetz' symphonies was passed as Haydn's? Has it been recorded? (I think there is at least one Gyrowetz disc in the Chandos Mozart contemporaries series)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on May 26, 2015, 04:08:55 AM

Well, that was a clear sign what my listening for tonight should be. Under my current system I needed to choose between 88, 90, 91 or 92. Number 88 it is.

I listened to no.89 when I was in Paris last month. (AHA! But it's not a "Paris" symphony so my previous statement stands! :P). I have exactly the Kuijken recording you recommend, but I found the last movement rather disappointing. It seemed to lack the required energy. The rest of it was good, though.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on May 26, 2015, 04:37:07 AM

PS No complaints with Kuijken's rendition of No.88

I'm struck by how often the symphony sounds rustic. There's that trio, of course, but the first and last movements also gave me a pretty strong country dance flavour.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 26, 2015, 04:40:08 AM

Quote from: orfeo on May 26, 2015, 04:08:55 AM
I listened to no.89 when I was in Paris last month....I have exactly the Kuijken recording you recommend, but I found the last movement rather disappointing. It seemed to lack the required energy.

Try to hear Fey or Weil...they provide the energy you're looking for.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on May 26, 2015, 04:54:32 AM

The most sophisticated thing in Nr. 89 is the first movement. Rosen points out in a few lines in "The classical style" that in the development section the melodies appear almost in the same shape and order as in the exposition but there are lot of modulations and "unstable" harmony (as befits that section) whereas the recapitulation changes the order of themes, splits them up (there are also delightful changes in orchestration) while resolving everything into F major.

Overall it is a somewhat lighter piece compared to its immediate neighbors, which are towering masterworks, but I would not call it slighter than e.g. Nr. 87.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 26, 2015, 04:56:57 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on May 25, 2015, 11:47:37 PM
Does anyone happen to know which of Gyrowetz' symphonies was passed as Haydn's? Has it been recorded? (I think there is at least one Gyrowetz disc in the Chandos Mozart contemporaries series)

No. I am on a Haydn list, and we members have spent the last 6 months trying to find more info. As far as recordings go, the only G major one we can find was written in the 1790's, so too late. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 26, 2015, 05:00:12 AM

Quote from: orfeo on May 26, 2015, 04:37:07 AM
PS No complaints with Kuijken's rendition of No.88

I'm struck by how often the symphony sounds rustic. There's that trio, of course, but the first and last movements also gave me a pretty strong country dance flavour.

The minuet/trio is about as rustic as it gets!

The McGegan is a really nice 88; not that it means anything to people at our level of suhfistakayshun, but it won the Grammy that year. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 26, 2015, 05:01:34 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 26, 2015, 04:40:08 AM
Try to hear Fey or Weil...they provide the energy you're looking for.

Sarge

I read that this is probably Fey's best disk in the series. That's saying a lot, but it's a work that deserves the best! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on May 26, 2015, 05:07:06 AM

People, people... I know it's the GMG way, but extra recordings of Haydn symphonies I already have are pretty low on the priority list when there are over 80 symphonies I don't have any recording of yet.

I nearly bought that Hogwood box when I was in Copenhagen... wasn't sure about the price. Turns out it was probably a good price.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on May 26, 2015, 05:30:29 AM

I don't know Fey's (neither Kujken's) but I seem to recall that I liked Wolf/Frankfurt and Rattle/Berlin in #89, probably also Brüggen. Even the Naxos (Drahos) is not bad, it's one of the best of the dozen or so Haydn symphonies on Naxos I had in my collection (although they were mostly faut de mieux and were given away later).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 26, 2015, 05:40:15 AM

Quote from: orfeo on May 26, 2015, 05:07:06 AM
People, people... I know it's the GMG way, but extra recordings of Haydn symphonies I already have are pretty low on the priority list when there are over 80 symphonies I don't have any recording of yet.

I nearly bought that Hogwood box when I was in Copenhagen... wasn't sure about the price. Turns out it was probably a good price.

If I only had one set of everything before Paris, that would be it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 26, 2015, 07:15:37 AM

Quote from: Camphy on May 17, 2015, 09:26:15 AM
Every week on the Dutch classical radio website, a few recordings (new releases) are made completely available for listening. This week, among others, there's this one:

(https://www.jpc.de/image/w220/front/0/3760014196713.jpg)

http://www.radio4.nl/plaatpaal/420/cd-van-de-week-haydn-il-filosofo-il-giardino-armonico

When you posted this a couple weeks ago, I replied that it was going to be released here on 5/25. I just checked Amazon, prepared to pull the trigger, and now they are saying "June 30"! Damn the luck! >:(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on May 26, 2015, 08:28:59 AM

Quote from: orfeo on May 26, 2015, 05:07:06 AM
People, people... I know it's the GMG way, but extra recordings of Haydn symphonies I already have are pretty low on the priority list when there are over 80 symphonies I don't have any recording of yet.

Then you should make getting them a higher priority than another #89. I have only about 1/3 of the Hogwood set and do not quite share the enthusiasm of others (although they are pretty and sometimes very good) but depending on the deal it might be a good way to get the first 75 symphonies.

We had this thread with recs on single symphonies, so I do not want to double this. Because there are so many and about half or more not very well served on discs, it is certainly convenient to get one of the complete (Fischer, Dorati, Russell Davies) or almost complete (Hogwood) boxes.

If one is not too thrifty and/or impatient, I'd rather go for some mix. There are several good options for the Paris and London and by now also for 88-92, I guess you have all/most of those. For the "Sturm&Drang" there is Pinnock or Brüggen as boxes, for the first 25 or so as well as the 70s Goodman on hyperion as single discs. Granted, some might still be hard to find, but for stopgaps there is also Naxos and Fey.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on May 26, 2015, 09:33:56 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 26, 2015, 04:40:08 AM
Try to hear Fey or Weil...they provide the energy you're looking for.

Sarge

I agree with this, both Weil and Fey. I liked Weil in 88 too, and Brüggen in that one.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on May 26, 2015, 10:10:55 AM

Quote from: orfeo on May 26, 2015, 05:07:06 AM
People, people... I know it's the GMG way, but extra recordings of Haydn symphonies I already have are pretty low on the priority list when there are over 80 symphonies I don't have any recording of yet.

I hear you -- I have some duplicates in Haydn but I'm trying not to go overboard. Depending on what you have, the Tafelmusik (Weil) minibox might get you some that you don't have plus an alternate 89 (actually all of 82-90), for about $20+sh. I just listened to their 89, and then the finale of Kuijken's which is indeed much more stately.

However, if you're planning on getting the Hogwood set then the Tafelmusik would be all duplicates (assuming you already have 82-90).

[asin]B001U0HB60[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on May 27, 2015, 12:59:41 AM

Quote from: Pat B on May 26, 2015, 10:10:55 AM
I hear you -- I have some duplicates in Haydn but I'm trying not to go overboard. Depending on what you have, the Tafelmusik (Weil) minibox might get you some that you don't have plus an alternate 89 (actually all of 82-90), for about $20+sh. I just listened to their 89, and then the finale of Kuijken's which is indeed much more stately.

However, if you're planning on getting the Hogwood set then the Tafelmusik would be all duplicates (assuming you already have 82-90).

[asin]B001U0HB60[/asin]

Thanks. Yes, my collection consists of 82-104.

I'm not against bits of duplication along the way if they happen. It's just that 'fixing' no.89 won't be a high priority.

Really, one bum movement amongst a whole lot of good ones is no great cause for concern. I bought the Mozart string quartets by the Alban Bergs on the strength of pretty-well universal recommendation here and elsewhere. Then when I heard and mentioned one really lousy minuet, people started saying "oh yeah, we know about that".

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on May 28, 2015, 03:29:57 PM

Looks like there are 20 Haydn symphonies I have not yet heard: 4, 10, 21-24, 30, 31, 53, 56, 57, 61-63, 68, 71, 74, 76, 77, 102

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 28, 2015, 03:46:41 PM

Quote from: Brian on May 28, 2015, 03:29:57 PM
Looks like there are 20 Haydn symphonies I have not yet heard: 4, 10, 21-24, 30, 31, 53, 56, 57, 61-63, 68, 71, 74, 76, 77, 102

Try to hear the Hobbit's 53.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/dec11/haydn5354fey.jpg)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 28, 2015, 04:10:16 PM

Quote from: Brian on May 28, 2015, 03:29:57 PM
Looks like there are 20 Haydn symphonies I have not yet heard: 4, 10, 21-24, 30, 31, 53, 56, 57, 61-63, 68, 71, 74, 76, 77, 102

Some surprises there (31, 56, 57, 68, 76, 77, 102?). Some non-surprises too (the others). Short of having a complete set, 'the others' aren't just laying around loose. Even 56 & 57 are amazingly rarely recorded outside complete sets. But seriously, 102? And 31? That's like me saying I have yet to hear Pachelbel's Canon in D. Hard to believe, but true. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on May 28, 2015, 04:47:39 PM

Quote from: Brian on May 28, 2015, 03:29:57 PM
Looks like there are 20 Haydn symphonies I have not yet heard: 4, 10, 21-24, 30, 31, 53, 56, 57, 61-63, 68, 71, 74, 76, 77, 102

I am not sure if it impresses, depresses, or scares me that someone could know that. I can barely keep track of which Franck symphony I have heard.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 28, 2015, 04:49:02 PM

Quote from: Ken B on May 28, 2015, 04:47:39 PM
I am not sure if it impresses, depresses, or scares me that someone could know that. I can barely keep track of which Franck symphony I have heard.

:D

(I was impressed; I couldn't have done the equivalent, I don't think).

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on May 28, 2015, 06:53:22 PM

Quote from: Ken B on May 28, 2015, 04:47:39 PM
I am not sure if it impresses, depresses, or scares me that someone could know that. I can barely keep track of which Franck symphony I have heard.

Hahaha!

I have listening logs of everything I've heard since January 2010. There is always a chance that I heard 102 before then and don't remember hearing it, but as I progressed through the Dennis Russell Davies box I queried my logs to ID the unheard symphonies. So far I've gone from knowing only about 35 to knowing, well, 80. Progress is progress!

There is an element of me trying to save some "best for last" rather than finishing up with obscure early ones.

Gurn!!! Listen to the Jordi Savall "Ostinato" CD and pop your Pachelbel Canon cherry with its purest (!) performance!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on May 28, 2015, 07:59:39 PM

Quote from: Brian on May 28, 2015, 06:53:22 PM
Hahaha!

I have listening logs of everything I've heard since January 2010. There is always a chance that I heard 102 before then and don't remember hearing it, but as I progressed through the Dennis Russell Davies box I queried my logs to ID the unheard symphonies. So far I've gone from knowing only about 35 to knowing, well, 80. Progress is progress!

There is an element of me trying to save some "best for last" rather than finishing up with obscure early ones.

Gurn!!! Listen to the Jordi Savall "Ostinato" CD and pop your Pachelbel Canon cherry with its purest (!) performance!

Interesting. A couple times I kept reading logs. In the 80s for some years and then starting in 2003 I logged every book I read. Then after 10 years I just stopped. But I did review it for outstanding books and gave a few as gifts. Aside from technical or math or physics books my top picks were

Tales from Ovid Ted Hughes.
Jesus, Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millenium Bart Ehrman.
Fire in the Sky Eric Bergerud
Arguing About Slavery William Lee Miller

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 29, 2015, 04:39:02 AM

Quote from: Brian on May 28, 2015, 06:53:22 PM
There is an element of me trying to save some "best for last" rather than finishing up with obscure early ones.

Gurn!!! Listen to the Jordi Savall "Ostinato" CD and pop your Pachelbel Canon cherry with its purest (!) performance!

That is a reasonable listening plan. although the normal definitions of 'obscure early ones' and 'best for last' etc are sort of skewed with Haydn, since his early works peaked early, just in a stylistically different way than the middle and later ones. There is no gradual ramping up of quality in the way you see with most others, even Mozart.

Well, Savall would be my ideal, no doubt. I wouldn't get a disk for the purpose of hearing that, but if I did get the disk, it would be nice to hear it on there. Savall and I are muy simpatico!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 29, 2015, 04:53:33 AM

Quote from: Brian on May 28, 2015, 06:53:22 PM
Gurn!!! Listen to the Jordi Savall "Ostinato" CD and pop your Pachelbel Canon cherry with its purest (!) performance!

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 29, 2015, 04:39:02 AM
Well, Savall would be my ideal, no doubt. !

Gurn, I think Pinnock is a better choice for a maiden voyage on the Canon and Gigue. Savall is just too damn fast (4:16 vs 5:49). Savall's the Canon for people who hate the Canon ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 29, 2015, 04:58:34 AM

A sizeable population! 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 29, 2015, 05:03:12 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on May 29, 2015, 04:58:34 AM
A sizeable population! 8)

;D :D ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on May 29, 2015, 05:07:47 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 29, 2015, 04:53:33 AM
Gurn, I think Pinnock is a better choice for a maiden voyage on the Canon and Gigue. Savali is just too damn fast (4:16 vs 5:49). Savali's the Canon for people who hate the Canon ;D

Sarge

oops...guilty?

Nah, I don't hate it, I just needed to listen to it in a fresh, radical way. Probably Gurn does not need that, unless he has (as I suspect) already heard it in a hundred weddings and elevators.

(My parents' wedding music, by the way.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 29, 2015, 05:09:28 AM

Quote from: Brian on May 29, 2015, 05:07:47 AM
oops...guilty?

Nah, I don't hate it, I just needed to listen to it in a fresh, radical way.

Yeah, I get that. Savall is quite startling...blows the dust off the piece.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 29, 2015, 05:15:55 AM

Quote from: Brian on May 29, 2015, 05:07:47 AM
(My parents' wedding music, by the way.)

If they played it like Savall, she must've sprinted down the aisle ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 29, 2015, 05:46:18 AM

Quote from: Brian on May 29, 2015, 05:07:47 AM
oops...guilty?

Nah, I don't hate it, I just needed to listen to it in a fresh, radical way. Probably Gurn does not need that, unless he has (as I suspect) already heard it in a hundred weddings and elevators.

(My parents' wedding music, by the way.)

Chances are impossibly great that when I finally DO hear it, and know what I'm hearing, I will say 'Ah, so that's Pachelbel!'. Ignorance can be bliss from time to time.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 29, 2015, 04:53:33 AM
Gurn, I think Pinnock is a better choice for a maiden voyage on the Canon and Gigue. Savall is just too damn fast (4:16 vs 5:49). Savall's the Canon for people who hate the Canon ;D

Sarge

Probably so, Sarge, although maybe if they only heard the balls-to-the-wall version, they wouldn't be tired of it. ? Nah, probably not. :)

8)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 31, 2015, 11:27:31 AM

Anyone here who doesn't know that Opus 50 is my favorite Haydn quartet opus just hasn't been here long enough. But that isn't the reason I have to spread it across two essays; there is just a lot of interesting stuff there! So I start off this week, looking at the lead-up, it only touches the surface of the story; As the Estoras World Turns... Check it out!

Opus 50 part 1 - The View from the Top (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/05/1787-the-music-part-2.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on June 02, 2015, 07:36:27 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 31, 2015, 11:27:31 AM
Anyone here who doesn't know that Opus 50 is my favorite Haydn quartet opus just hasn't been here long enough. But that isn't the reason I have to spread it across two essays; there is just a lot of interesting stuff there! So I start off this week, looking at the lead-up, it only touches the surface of the story; As the Estoras World Turns... Check it out!

Opus 50 part 1 - The View from the Top (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/05/1787-the-music-part-2.html)

Thanks!
8)

Looking forward to the rest on op 50. Like you I like these quartets a lot.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 02, 2015, 08:08:14 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on June 02, 2015, 07:36:27 AM
Looking forward to the rest on op 50. Like you I like these quartets a lot.

Thanks. It's quite a story, I must say. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 03, 2015, 06:41:14 AM

Now that my recital is done I look forward to reading!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 03, 2015, 06:44:37 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 03, 2015, 06:41:14 AM
Now that my recital is done I look forward to reading!

It looks forward to being read. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 03, 2015, 06:45:17 AM

Hah!

I like a man who doesn't shy from a nice pathetic fallacy!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 03, 2015, 07:06:00 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 03, 2015, 06:45:17 AM
Hah!

I like a man who doesn't shy from a nice pathetic fallacy!

Upon reading it, it thanked me. A most polite blog.

Listening to Op.50/1 with fresh ears. Thanks, Gurn.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 03, 2015, 08:01:58 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 03, 2015, 07:06:00 AM
Upon reading it, it thanked me. A most polite blog.

Listening to Op.50/1 with fresh ears. Thanks, Gurn.

Sarge

Most welcome, Sarge. Auryn's? :)

Quote from: karlhenning on June 03, 2015, 06:45:17 AM
Hah!

I like a man who doesn't shy from a nice pathetic fallacy!

Blogs take on a life of their own, Karl, as I'm sure you know. ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 03, 2015, 08:09:48 AM

It's alive! 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 03, 2015, 08:11:39 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 03, 2015, 08:01:58 AM
Auryn's? :)

Yes, Auryn. I'll listen to the Kodaly and Festetics' op.50/1 later...but the last time I compared the three, Auryn was my favorite so I started with that. (I have Tokyo too but I'm too lazy to deal with an LP right now.) A pity the Mosaïques haven't done op.50.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 03, 2015, 08:40:28 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 03, 2015, 08:11:39 AM
Yes, Auryn. I'll listen to the Kodaly and Festetics' op.50/1 later...but the last time I compared the three, Auryn was my favorite so I started with that. (I have Tokyo too but I'm too lazy to deal with an LP right now.) A pity the Mosaïques haven't done op.50.

Sarge

Yes, I remember that faceoff. I chose the Tokyo and the Salomon's 1-2. I also have a variety of others (Nomos, Tatrai, Lindsay's, Festetics, and those guys on Audiovox ( ::) )). My favorites are singles by the Schuppanzigh's, wish they would have done the set. The new set I was alluding to in the essay is the London Haydn Quartet. I was talking with James Boyd last week on Twitter when he gave me that picture of the front cover of Artaria, and he said they were working on the final edit right now. I reckon it will be out in the next couple months then. Looking forward to that! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 03, 2015, 09:33:37 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 03, 2015, 08:40:28 AMThe new set I was alluding to in the essay is the London Haydn Quartet.... Looking forward to that! :)

Oh good! I was meaning to ask you about that but it slipped my mind. Glad to hear it's the London Haydn; I like them. Listening to the Festestics op.50/1 now. First movement is too fast for me. The pulsing cello just doesn't sound right at their speed.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 03, 2015, 10:35:22 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 03, 2015, 09:33:37 AM
Oh good! I was meaning to ask you about that but it slipped my mind. Glad to hear it's the London Haydn; I like them. Listening to the Festestics op.50/1 now. First movement is too fast for me. The pulsing cello just doesn't sound right at their speed.

Sarge

Yes, not my favorite either, despite my general preference for them. I do rather like the Salomon's though, they almost have it just right. :)

I'm pleased that the LHQ are doing it too. They have been getting better and better as they go along. I was ambivalent about Op9, but really liked 20 & 33. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on June 03, 2015, 05:00:56 PM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EnA%2BqLp0L.jpg)

Planning a full listen through the Haydn quartets in the coming weeks, starting tonight with the above two CD set.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 03, 2015, 05:04:49 PM

Quote from: George on June 03, 2015, 05:00:56 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51EnA%2BqLp0L.jpg)

Planning a full listen through the Haydn quartets in the coming weeks, starting tonight with the above two CD set.

That's a great listening project, George, hope you enjoy!

That's the very first version they did. I have the Op 33 and the Op 77 from that set (both on Harmonia Mundi) and quite enjoy them. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 03, 2015, 11:36:37 PM

So the Festetics did (at least) op.9,33,64,77 twice? And the "Seven last words" only for hungaroton or harmonia mundi?

I had both of their op.64 several years ago and finally got rid of the earlier recording. Despite being not bad and often livelier than the newer one, the much better sound of the Arcana led to that decision.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 04, 2015, 01:48:55 AM

I remember the op.50 blind listening. The first of the two samples, from op.50/1, the Tokyo were just stunningly good.

And then we got to the end and I found out the recording I'd fallen in love with was an OOP thing that had never been on a proper CD. Great. Thanks everyone.

I still haven't bought an op.50 yet. Too busy, or too scarred?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 04, 2015, 03:57:07 AM

The Tokyo was available on proper CD for a while (at least in Europe). But it's been oop for many years and what's sometimes offered used is probably the "improper" (burned) CDs issue. I have not heard the Tokyo (and maybe heretically I am not that fond of op.50 #1, may favorites are probably 4 and 6) but there is an excellent recording of op.50 (two separate discs) in very good sound by the Swiss Amati Quartet on Divox.

Apparently Haydn does not sell well (or DG are idiots or both). Otherwise DG could have easily put together a small Tokyo set (including op.50) because there are presumably very good recordings from the 1970s by that group that have never been on CD as far as I can see (Haydn's op.76/1 and op.20/4&5 as well as some Brahms and Mozart)...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 04, 2015, 04:12:38 AM

Quote from: orfeo on June 04, 2015, 01:48:55 AM
I remember the op.50 blind listening. The first of the two samples, from op.50/1, the Tokyo were just stunningly good.

And then we got to the end and I found out the recording I'd fallen in love with was an OOP thing that had never been on a proper CD. Great. Thanks everyone.

I still haven't bought an op.50 yet. Too busy, or too scarred?

The fact that it is on an Arkiv CD-R NOW, doesn't mean it was never on a 'proper CD' or even that it is unattainable. I see it for sale all the time, a 2 disk set for ~$35US. Now, if you only buy NEW, then that's another thing altogether. I saw one last year for ~$250US. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 04, 2015, 04:19:49 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on June 03, 2015, 11:36:37 PM
So the Festetics did (at least) op.9,33,64,77 twice? And the "Seven last words" only for hungaroton or harmonia mundi?

I had both of their op.64 several years ago and finally got rid of the earlier recording. Despite being not bad and often livelier than the newer one, the much better sound of the Arcana led to that decision.

Yes, that's pretty much it. My Op 33 & 77 are on HM, a sub-label (along the lines of ASV Gaudeamus) that I can't quite dredge up the name of, starts with a Q though anyway. :-\ I am totally not sure what the relationship is between that and the Hungaroton ones, if they are the same versions licensed or what. I do know the Arcana are completely different, much newer performances.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 04, 2015, 04:21:18 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on June 04, 2015, 03:57:07 AM
The Tokyo was available on proper CD for a while (at least in Europe). But it's been oop for many years and what's sometimes offered used is probably the "improper" (burned) CDs issue. I have not heard the Tokyo (and maybe heretically I am not that fond of op.50 #1, may favorites are probably 4 and 6) but there is an excellent recording of op.50 (two separate discs) in very good sound by the Swiss Amati Quartet on Divox.

Apparently Haydn does not sell well (or DG are idiots or both). Otherwise DG could have easily put together a small Tokyo set (including op.50) because there are presumably very good recordings from the 1970s by that group that have never been on CD as far as I can see (Haydn's op.76/1 and op.20/4&5 as well as some Brahms and Mozart)...

Yes, I have that Amati Quartet set too, I agree, it is very fine. Hardly any easier to get hold of, in the States anyway. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 04, 2015, 06:19:36 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 04, 2015, 04:12:38 AM
The fact that it is on an Arkiv CD-R NOW, doesn't mean it was never on a 'proper CD' or even that it is unattainable. I see it for sale all the time, a 2 disk set for ~$35US. Now, if you only buy NEW, then that's another thing altogether. I saw one last year for ~$250US. :)

8)

Ah well, guess my memory is faulty. I just remember the sensation of "what, you mean I can't rush out and buy it?"

I don't think I liked the 2nd sample from the Tokyo Quartet quite as much as the first. But the first... seriously, I still have it on my computer somewhere because it was so good I didn't want to delete it, fragmentary as it was.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on June 04, 2015, 11:15:48 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 03, 2015, 10:35:22 AM
I do rather like the Salomon's though, they almost have it just right. :)

I have the Salomon op.50#4-6 disc. The 1st violinist (Standage?) sounds insecure, with frequently dodgy intonation, yet the overall result is still very charming. It is an anomaly in my collection: I can't think of any other recording that is so shaky technically that I like so much. After each listen it sticks in my head, sometimes for days.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 04, 2015, 12:14:41 PM

Yes, "Quintana" was apparently hungaroton recordings licensed to some branch of harmonia mundi, this also applied to their op.64. I also have a disc with Mozart piano concertos (Kocsis) on a "Quintana" disc.

FWIW I think the Festetics op.50 is quite good (I am not as fond of the group as many others here, but this is among their best in my opinion). If the Amati/Divox is also hard to get, sorry about that. I have not heard them but now there is also the Auryn and the Leipzig String Quartet. And jpc.de still has the Nomos' op.50 dirt cheap (although I found this a little "dry", it is certainly not bad)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 04, 2015, 02:08:19 PM

Quote from: Pat B on June 04, 2015, 11:15:48 AM
I have the Salomon op.50#4-6 disc. The 1st violinist (Standage?) sounds insecure, with frequently dodgy intonation, yet the overall result is still very charming. It is an anomaly in my collection: I can't think of any other recording that is so shaky technically that I like so much. After each listen it sticks in my head, sometimes for days.

I know what you mean, and yet, the results are as you say. I have actually dozens of recordings of Standage, and can't really think of any other which resembles this effort. It is one of those oddities; I have better recordings technically, but musically this one is very satisfying. Not sure what that says... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 04, 2015, 02:13:44 PM

Quote from: Que on June 04, 2015, 12:19:41 PM
Quintana..... 8)

Q

Quote from: Jo498 on June 04, 2015, 12:14:41 PM
Yes, "Quintana" was apparently hungaroton recordings licensed to some branch of harmonia mundi, this also applied to their op.64. I also have a disc with Mozart piano concertos (Kocsis) on a "Quintana" disc.

FWIW I think the Festetics op.50 is quite good (I am not as fond of the group as many others here, but this is among their best in my opinion). If the Amati/Divox is also hard to get, sorry about that. I have not heard them but now there is also the Auryn and the Leipzig String Quartet. And jpc.de still has the Nomos' op.50 dirt cheap (although I found this a little "dry", it is certainly not bad)

Yes, I knew you guys would know. :-[ I shouldn't even talk about disks away from my library; my memory for things like that is dismal.

I don't mind the Amati being hard to get; I already have it. :D And the Nomos. I have the Leipzig 4tet Complete Schubert, and I really do like them for a MI group. Theirs could be in my future. Sarge has all the Auryn that both of us need, so I'll let them go by. It wouldn't do to have all of them, that would be just crazy! :o :o

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 04, 2015, 03:11:19 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 04, 2015, 02:08:19 PM
I know what you mean, and yet, the results are as you say. I have actually dozens of recordings of Standage, and can't really think of any other which resembles this effort. It is one of those oddities; I have better recordings technically, but musically this one is very satisfying. Not sure what that says... :)

8)

It says that hitting the right notes is not actually the essence of music.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 04, 2015, 03:52:55 PM

Quote from: orfeo on June 04, 2015, 03:11:19 PM
It says that hitting the right notes is not actually the essence of music.

:o :o Heresy! But yeah, I've heard it said about certain pianists too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on June 04, 2015, 09:09:34 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 04, 2015, 03:52:55 PM
:o :o Heresy! But yeah, I've heard it said about certain pianists too. :)

8)

Well, for me, I guess this is proof-by-construction of orfeo's comment, but it's much less common than technically weak recordings which are not so pleasing musically. YMMV of course. (Regarding "certain pianists," I don't think I've heard Schnabel's Hammerklavier, which seems to be the canonical example.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 05, 2015, 03:38:48 AM

Quote from: orfeo on June 04, 2015, 03:11:19 PM
It says that hitting the right notes is not actually the essence of music.

I'll try an experiment one of these days, of corrupting perhaps 18% of the notes in a Haydn quartet for a MIDI file, and we can discuss just how many notes can be wrong, but the performance still be considered "musical" 0:)

Or am I estimating low with 18%? 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 05, 2015, 05:39:53 AM

I suspect you're estimating high.

Nevertheless, my views on this were shaped by a couple of formative experiences. One was that Chopin's 1st Ballade made no sense to me the first few times I heard it, but a 1960s recording by Philippe Entremont complete with one very obvious flub was a transformative revelation.

The other was Chopin as well actually. A girl I used to compete against regularly in Eisteddfods managed to get the 2nd note of the rather too famous Nocturne Op.9/2 wrong... and then played the piece beautifully.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2015, 05:50:47 AM

Quote from: Pat B on June 04, 2015, 09:09:34 PM
...I don't think I've heard Schnabel's Hammerklavier, which seems to be the canonical example.)

It is exactly the one I had in mind, actually. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2015, 05:52:34 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 05, 2015, 03:38:48 AM
I'll try an experiment one of these days, of corrupting perhaps 18% of the notes in a Haydn quartet for a MIDI file, and we can discuss just how many notes can be wrong, but the performance still be considered "musical" 0:)

Or am I estimating low with 18%? 8)

If you can make any sort of MIDI file sound musical in any way, my hat is off to you. This example totally misses the essence of the discussion (perhaps intentionally). ::)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 05, 2015, 06:10:29 AM

Quote from: orfeo on June 05, 2015, 05:39:53 AM
I suspect you're estimating high.

Nevertheless, my views on this were shaped by a couple of formative experiences. One was that Chopin's 1st Ballade made no sense to me the first few times I heard it, but a 1960s recording by Philippe Entremont complete with one very obvious flub was a transformative revelation.

The other was Chopin as well actually. A girl I used to compete against regularly in Eisteddfods managed to get the 2nd note of the rather too famous Nocturne Op.9/2 wrong... and then played the piece beautifully.

Well, this wasn't at all what I had in mind, of course 8)

We all of us do make the odd mistake (I made a few in my own piece this Tuesday past), and that odd wrong note does not fatally mar the musical impact.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 05, 2015, 06:11:25 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2015, 05:52:34 AM
If you can make any sort of MIDI file sound musical in any way, my hat is off to you. This example totally misses the essence of the discussion (perhaps intentionally). ::)

8)

Not quite intentionally . . . the idea (put thus abstractly) actually set me to thinking of another room on that floor 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 05, 2015, 06:12:12 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2015, 05:52:34 AM
If you can make any sort of MIDI file sound musical in any way, my hat is off to you.

Would be a particular challenge, in the medium of the string quartet, I do not deny!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2015, 06:31:23 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 05, 2015, 06:10:29 AM
Well, this wasn't at all what I had in mind, of course 8)

We all of us do make the odd mistake (I made a few in my own piece this Tuesday past), and that odd wrong note does not fatally mar the musical impact.

Agreed. I hate when someone totally rips a performance because of a wrong note here or there, especially when it is a very good and heartfelt effort otherwise. Perfection is not one of my main goals for a performance. Heartfelt is. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2015, 06:34:14 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 05, 2015, 06:12:12 AM
Would be a particular challenge, in the medium of the string quartet, I do not deny!

I remember some sort of online quiz thing about 'You think you can tell Mozart from Haydn?', where they played 4 or 8 measures of a midi file of a string quartet and you had to choose Mozart or Haydn as the composer. I didn't even come close, as I couldn't relate that sound to what a string quartet sounded like to me to what those midi's sounded like. Although 8 bars isn't enough to allow unique personal characters to show through, so you actually would have to know each work intimately to successfully answer. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 05, 2015, 06:40:43 AM

No, indeed; drop-the-needle tests where the sample is so absurdly brief are worse than useless!

A number of my colleagues cannot abide MIDI at all; so it just won't work for everyone. I have been borderline curious, since the latest sound library for Sibelius is so great an advance on the "'80s video game" quality of the earlier, how a string quartet would sound. Inadequate, there is no question; but might it be . . . endurable? . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 05, 2015, 06:47:11 AM

I remember this or a similar online quiz. While I think it was sometimes more than measures the main problem was that it was midi (did not sound at all like a string quartet, I think they did not even bother to try for a similar sound) and all files were played roughly in the same speed so most "slow" movements were way too fast and most "fast" movements way too slow!!!

Except maybe for menuettos I think I would recognize many of the better known pieces. But there are so many by Haydn and I do not know the early 12-13 by Mozart very well, so there is still a large potential for errors.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2015, 06:56:20 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 05, 2015, 06:40:43 AM
...but might it be . . . endurable? . . .

I think not, Karl. Where midi may emulate certain instruments such as an organ or a flute, which have an essentially 'smooth' tone production, bowed strings are simply and idiomatically too far from that. :(

Quote from: Jo498 on June 05, 2015, 06:47:11 AM
I remember this or a similar online quiz. While I think it was sometimes more than measures the main problem was that it was midi (did not sound at all like a string quartet, I think they did not even bother to try for a similar sound) and all files were played roughly in the same speed so most "slow" movements were way too fast and most "fast" movements way too slow!!!

Except maybe for menuettos I think I would recognize many of the better known pieces. But there are so many by Haydn and I do not know the early 12-13 by Mozart very well, so there is still a large potential for errors.

Oh, I'm sure it was the same one, it was pursued on 3 or 4 different forums I was on at the time. And no doubt it IS the midi'ness of the sound which throws you off. I don't really believe that even knowing the music would help much, since even then I knew a lot of the music pretty well. Even knowing the answer didn't help! :o

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on June 05, 2015, 07:34:27 AM

Quote from: orfeo on June 05, 2015, 05:39:53 AM
I suspect you're estimating high.

Nevertheless, my views on this were shaped by a couple of formative experiences. One was that Chopin's 1st Ballade made no sense to me the first few times I heard it, but a 1960s recording by Philippe Entremont complete with one very obvious flub was a transformative revelation.

The other was Chopin as well actually. A girl I used to compete against regularly in Eisteddfods managed to get the 2nd note of the rather too famous Nocturne Op.9/2 wrong... and then played the piece beautifully.

Interesting.

The Haydn quartet disc I was originally talking about has more than one mistake. It's probably in the ballpark of 5-10 per piece that I easily notice. And maybe it's because of my violin background (and my lack of piano background), but I am much more forgiving of piano flubs. I particularly dislike the sound of a violinist sliding around trying to find the right note, which sounds rather different than an intentional glissando.

Also, there are some moments where a mistake can be devastating, and other moments where the same mistake is easier to ignore.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on June 06, 2015, 09:17:10 AM

Ok, I need your help guys.

I noticed this morning that my Haydn SQ collection is only missing 4 Opuses, Op. 1, 2, 3 and 42.

A quick check on wiki shows that Op. 3 wasn't written by Haydn, so I guess I don't need to bother there.

Op. 42 I have in a historical recording by The Pro Arte SQ.

So that just leaves Op. 1 and 2. Which recordings are recommended for these works?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 06, 2015, 09:37:16 AM

In the newest edition op.1 and 2 have been separated from the quartets following op.9 as "Early divertimenti for string quartet". This may be one reason why the Festetics (and more recently the London Haydn Quartet) only started with op.9.

If you can find the Petersen recording of op.1 for a decent price, get it. They play with a lot of verve and esprit and making even the comparably slight pieces almost better than they really are. Unfortunately they never recorded any later Haydn...

http://www.allmusic.com/album/haydn-string-quartets-op-1-mw0001941177

The Angeles Quartet is also pretty good here, but these are only in a box (and that's my only op.2)
I believe only the Kodaly and the Auryn are available on single/double discs, that is outside a complete box. On Brilliant there is a 3-disc-set with op.1+2 I believe (Buchberger Quartett)
I'd assume the Auryn to be pretty good and I have the Kodaly in the dubious op.3 and they are pretty good there and they should be serviceable for op.1 and 2 as well.

This is charming and entertaining music with some little gems but they were written about 10 years before op.9 and probably also several years before the first great symphonies (6-8), so do not expect pieces as weighty as the ones from the late 1760s onwards.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on June 06, 2015, 09:45:32 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on June 06, 2015, 09:37:16 AM
In the newest edition op.1 and 2 have been separated from the quartets following op.9 as "Early divertimenti for string quartet". This may be one reason why the Festetics (and more recently the London Haydn Quartet) only started with op.9.

Good info, thanks!

QuoteThe Angeles Quartet is also pretty good here, but these are only in a box (and that's my only op.2)

I'll look for this. A friend has the set, so I can sample it.

QuoteThis is charming and entertaining music with some little gems but they were written about 10 years before op.9 and probably also several years before the first great symphonies (6-8), so do not expect pieces as weighty as the ones from the late 1760s onwards.

Again, thanks!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 06, 2015, 09:57:07 AM

Hey, George. I only have Kodaly and that suffices (I like their laid-back style). I sampled Auryn the other day, liked what I heard (I have all their other recordings) but decided against duplicating op.1 & 2. I just don't listen to them often enough to justify the purchase.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on June 06, 2015, 10:01:16 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 06, 2015, 09:57:07 AM
Hey, George. I only have Kodaly and that suffices (I like their laid-back style). I sampled Auryn the other day, liked what I heard (I have all their other recordings) but decided against duplicating op.1 & 2. I just don't listen to them often enough to justify the purchase.

Sarge

Thanks, Sarge! Hope you are enjoying the weekend!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on June 06, 2015, 10:36:00 AM

Quote from: George on June 06, 2015, 09:17:10 AM
Ok, I need your help guys.

I noticed this morning that my Haydn SQ collection is only missing 4 Opuses, Op. 1, 2, 3 and 42.

A quick check on wiki shows that Op. 3 wasn't written by Haydn, so I guess I don't need to bother there.

Op. 42 I have in a historical recording by The Pro Arte SQ.

So that just leaves Op. 1 and 2. Which recordings are recommended for these works?

Where's the Pro Arte op 42?

Can't help you with the low opus numbers.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on June 06, 2015, 10:42:25 AM

Quote from: George on June 06, 2015, 09:45:32 AM
Good info, thanks!

Hi, George! :)

My favorite versions of the Op. 1 & Op. 2 are those by the Tátrai Quartet.

Are available via Spotify, but unfortunately the actual disks aren't easy to get. :(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 06, 2015, 11:15:43 AM

Hey, George. All solid info so far. This is the version I have and really like. The only reason I don't rec it is because it is now OOP. I have seen each f the 3 disks for sale separately, don't know if a set could be made. They may well be available on one of the streaming services though, I wouldn't know. My only others are the Kodaly, and like Sarge, I think they are pretty good with these.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn%20Klein%20String%20divertimentos.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 06, 2015, 02:16:37 PM

But the "Hamburg soloist" actually take them as "Divertimenti for (more than just 4) strings, they play them with a small chamber ensemble, not as string quartets, right?

I do not think there is a Pro Arte op.42 (not listed at Pristine). Apart from (almost) complete recordings (Festetics and Buchberger have it as filler to op.33 on twofers, Kodaly with op.2, Auryn as filler for op.77), there is one with the Lindsay (live) and one with Leipzig (with op.77).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 06, 2015, 02:28:26 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on June 06, 2015, 02:16:37 PM
But the "Hamburg soloist" actually take them as "Divertimenti for (more than just 4) strings, they play them with a small chamber ensemble, not as string quartets, right?

I do not think there is a Pro Arte op.42 (not listed at Pristine). Apart from (almost) complete recordings (Festetics and Buchberger have it as filler to op.33 on twofers, Kodaly with op.2, Auryn as filler for op.77), there is one with the Lindsay (live) and one with Leipzig (with op.77).

I won't say this isn't possible, but there is absolutely no indication in the liner notes that it is anything other than 2 violins, Bratsche and cello. Nor does it sound like it is.

The originals of these, back in the 1756-60 time period, specified 2 Violins, Viola & Baßo. As you are aware, this only means 4 voices, not 4 instruments. There would be nothing in the least inauthentic about playing the bass line with a cello, a violone, a bassoon, or any combination of these instruments, including all 3. We play them as quartets because circa 1765, they were published in France as quartets. But by then, the actual animal which we call a 'string quartet' was widely dispersed and popular, and it was a logical thing to add these works to the repertoire. Things weren't nearly as dogmatic back then as they became after 1800... :(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on June 06, 2015, 05:48:19 PM

Quote from: Gordo on June 06, 2015, 10:42:25 AM
Hi, George! :)

My favorite versions of the Op. 1 & Op. 2 are those by the Tátrai Quartet.

Are available via Spotify, but unfortunately the actual disks aren't easy to get. :(

Thanks!

Wow, the Tatrai Op. 1 and 2 aren't listed in the discography that appears in the booklet of at least one of their other sets.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on June 06, 2015, 05:54:13 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on June 06, 2015, 10:36:00 AM
Where's the Pro Arte op 42?

My bad, it's number 42 that the Pro Arte did.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 06, 2015, 06:10:41 PM

Quote from: George on June 06, 2015, 05:54:13 PM
My bad, it's number 42 that the Pro Arte did.

Some background on Op 42 (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/03/1785-the-music-part-2-.html).

You nearly always find it as an add-on with Op 33, since it is short enough to fit. It is small, but excellent!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on June 06, 2015, 06:11:31 PM

Quote from: Gordo on June 06, 2015, 10:42:25 AM
Hi, George! :)

My favorite versions of the Op. 1 & Op. 2 are those by the Tátrai Quartet.

Are available via Spotify, but unfortunately the actual disks aren't easy to get. :(

Found them and ordered!!! Only $16.50!The 3CD set includes all three Opuses that I am missing, so I am very excited!
More copies are available here. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000027C59?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=od_aui_detailpages00)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/715wAfd3KKL._SL500_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on June 06, 2015, 06:11:46 PM

George: I don't recall exactly the name of the guy, but some scholar (vaguely I recall he was a good one) called the Op. 42 "a polished gem" (quotation needed). The Festetics are a top choice. :)

P.S.: Damn! I hadn't seen Reply #9848. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on June 06, 2015, 06:12:55 PM

Quote from: George on June 06, 2015, 06:11:31 PM
Found them and ordered!!! Only $16.50!The 3CD set includes all three Opuses that I am missing, so I am very excited!
More copies are available: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000027C59?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=od_aui_detailpages00

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/715wAfd3KKL._SL500_.jpg)

Lucky guy!!!

Congratulations. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 06, 2015, 06:58:07 PM

Quote from: Gordo on June 06, 2015, 06:11:46 PM
George: I don't recall exactly the name of the guy, but some scholar (vaguely I recall he was a good one) called the Op. 42 "a polished gem" (quotation needed). The Festetics are a top choice. :)

P.S.: Damn! I hadn't seen Reply #9848. ;D

I'd really like to meet that guy: Haydn scholars are thin on the ground! :D

Festetics are indeed excellent there, but it looks like George done found what he needs. Can't beat it at the price!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on June 06, 2015, 10:14:03 PM

Just look at these reviews of Op 50 by the Lindsays, which I thought was interesting because it raises a whole bunch of issues about how to play classical style music

QuoteEnthusiastic but sloppy, expressive but sentimental, the Lindsay String Quartet's 2003 recording of the second half of Haydn's String Quartets, Op. 50, is no better and no worse than any of the Lindsay Quartet's recordings for the past two decades. The individual players have the technique to hit the notes, but they get so carried away by the music that they do not always hit them dead on. Nor do they hit them all together as an ensemble, but rather as the mood takes them, which can result in some amazingly slovenly attacks and releases. And while the players are individually and as an ensemble very expressive, they once again get so carried away by the music that they seem not to express the particular emotions of Haydn's music, but rather express the general emotions of all music. The wit of Haydn's music is replaced by broad humor, the tenderness by a hot embrace, and the lean, hard strength by big, bulky muscles.
For those who want more from their Haydn than merely Haydn, the Lindsays are just the thing. For those who just want Haydn from their Haydn, the Lindsay Quartet will be too much. ASV's sound is close and warm.

QuoteThe first of two separate CDs covering Haydn's String Quartets, Op. 50, this 2004 ASV disc presents the first half of the set, dynamically performed by the Lindsay String Quartet and recorded with exceptionally clear sound. Haydn composed these quartets for Artaria's publication in 1787 and dedicated them to Prussian king and cellist Friedrich Wilhelm II. Whether or not Haydn had him in mind for performing these pieces, it is fairly certain he wrote them as a rejoinder to Mozart's six so-called "Haydn" quartets of 1785. Haydn's serious discourse and increased chromaticism match Mozart's tone and harmonic intricacy, though these quartets are more austere and tautly argued than Mozart's lyrically elastic and intensely expressive works. The Lindsay Quartet is fully engaged in these performances, and its vigorous playing emphasizes Haydn's jagged rhythms, pugnacious phrasing, and lean textures. Because these quartets are rigorous and sometimes quite brusque, it is appropriate that the Lindsay dispenses with some niceties of tone and expression and executes these quartets with boisterous energy and grit. Listeners may find this disc to be a somewhat bracing experience, but there is sufficient warmth and depth in the slow movements to balance the robust effect of the Lindsay Quartet's fast movements.

I find the intonation and ensemble in the recording excruciating, but musically, poetically, it's not without interest.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 07, 2015, 12:04:35 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on June 06, 2015, 10:14:03 PM
Just look at these reviews of Op 50 by the Lindsays, which I thought was interesting because it raises a whole bunch of issues about how to play classical style music

I find the intonation and ensemble in the recording excruciating, but musically, poetically, it's not without interest.

As it happens, I listened to these just last Sunday, in memoriam Peter Cropper. I agree, I am torn to some extent also, although I didn't find it quite as bad in those departments as I've heard. But it is, just like their Mozart disks which I have, a passionate performance, and this overcomes a lot of ills. As I mentioned earlier in the Salomon 4tet discussion, some things are more important to me than others. Fortunately, I wasn't cursed with perfect pitch... 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 07, 2015, 12:07:42 PM

Boy, following up on my pledge to look at the publishing history of Opus 50 turned out to be an adventure. One thing I have to say about Haydn; when you have him in a box, he shows he can use that creativity for more than just music! Check it out, if you would like.

Op 50 behind the scenes: the pale white underbelly of 18th century publishing (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/06/1787-the-music-part-3-the-long-story-of-opus-50-part-2-.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on June 07, 2015, 02:04:31 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 07, 2015, 12:07:42 PM
Boy, following up on my pledge to look at the publishing history of Opus 50 turned out to be an adventure. One thing I have to say about Haydn; when you have him in a box, he shows he can use that creativity for more than just music! Check it out, if you would like.

Op 50 behind the scenes: the pale white underbelly of 18th century publishing (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/06/1787-the-music-part-3-the-long-story-of-opus-50-part-2-.html)

Thanks!
8)

I've not had a chance to read this yet, so you may have covered this there -- there's a comment in one of the above reviews of Lindsay's op 50 "it is fairly certain he wrote them as a rejoinder to Mozart's six so-called "Haydn" quartets of 1785." Is that right? They do sound Mozartian to me, but that's just an intuitive response, I don't know about analysis or history.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 07, 2015, 02:25:17 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 07, 2015, 12:07:42 PM
Boy, following up on my pledge to look at the publishing history of Opus 50 turned out to be an adventure.

Giuseppe finally understood the publishing game, and got good at it ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 07, 2015, 02:31:37 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 07, 2015, 02:25:17 PM
Giuseppe finally understood the publishing game, and got good at it ;D

Sarge

:D Well, he was a genius after all. I think he got pretty creative. ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 07, 2015, 02:43:46 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on June 07, 2015, 02:04:31 PM
I've not had a chance to read this yet, so you may have covered this there -- there's a comment in one of the above reviews of Lindsay's op 50 "it is fairly certain he wrote them as a rejoinder to Mozart's six so-called "Haydn" quartets of 1785." Is that right? They do sound Mozartian to me, but that's just an intuitive response, I don't know about analysis or history.

Since this idea is just that: someone's theory, there is no documented information that one could put into an essay and talk about. Chronologically, Haydn agreed to write (and possibly actually began) these works in 1784, which anticipated Mozart by a bit, if they were supposedly tit for tat.

Musicologists have been hard at work, comparing manuscripts and styles for decades now, looking for Mozartian influences in Op 50. and the best they have come up with are some things on the order of; Haydn uses quite a bit more chromatics than he used to do which Mozart had always done (to which I say sure, but everyone was using more chromatics by then, so who is to say?).

The contention of this being a riposte seems to me to be based on the idea that Haydn's pride wouldn't allow him to let Mozart have the last word in his own genre. Maybe in its own way this is true, but if so, it was a private thing inside Haydn which he didn't share with anyone else, not even Mozart. So, it would require psychoanalysis, in lieu of a letter saying so. :)

Haydn did stop writing piano concertos and operas, and he never wrote a string quintet during a period when he may well have done so. It is certainly possible that these were subconscious concessions made to Mozart's genius. If you buy that, then it is almost mandatory to buy in to the Op 50 / 'Haydn' Quartets 'competition'. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on June 07, 2015, 08:42:55 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 07, 2015, 12:04:35 PM
As it happens, I listened to these just last Sunday, in memoriam Peter Cropper. I agree, I am torn to some extent also, although I didn't find it quite as bad in those departments as I've heard. But it is, just like their Mozart disks which I have, a passionate performance, and this overcomes a lot of ills. As I mentioned earlier in the Salomon 4tet discussion, some things are more important to me than others. Fortunately, I wasn't cursed with perfect pitch... 0:)

8)

No, I was wrong to say it's excruciating. Or rather, if I listen on a cheap piece of portable equipment (like I did first time) it is, but not through a good system. Really people who write reviews should say what equipment they're using!

Anyway I relistened to op 50/2 through the good system and thought it was excellent, particularly in the finale, but really everywhere - a quartet which is not so easy to get off the page IMO.

I wonder what got into Haydn to write such a dark piece as op 50/4 - is this the most uncomfortable music Haydn wrote? That icy change in harmony in the middle of the minuet, quite extraordinarily uncomfortable. I mention it partly because I think The Lindsays were right in their element in that one - there's a live recording as well as the set

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 07, 2015, 11:07:25 PM

I always found that op.50 was at most a very indirect reaction to Mozart's quartets dedicated to Haydn. While op.33 was overall rather short and "light" (compared to op.20), Mozart took it as an inspiration for large scale serious works, sometimes with almost operatic gestures. Take for instance the "siciliano" variations in op.33/5 compared to the dead serious variation finale in K 421 d minor (which is also about twice as long).

So Haydn now himself wrote works on a larger scale and sometimes in more dramatic mood but not as expansive as Mozart's, rather focussing on his particular strengths: dense, and often monothematic sonata movements (despite sometimes very ordinary, "trivial" material, like the first movement of the B flat major) and variations (4 of 6 slow movements in op.50 have elements of variations).
But he might have done this anyway, even without Mozart, because in retrospect the terse and comical op.33 is the exception (in some respects).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 08, 2015, 04:29:20 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on June 07, 2015, 11:07:25 PM
I always found that op.50 was at most a very indirect reaction to Mozart's quartets dedicated to Haydn. While op.33 was overall rather short and "light" (compared to op.20), Mozart took it as an inspiration for large scale serious works, sometimes with almost operatic gestures. Take for instance the "siciliano" variations in op.33/5 compared to the dead serious variation finale in K 421 d minor (which is also about twice as long).

So Haydn now himself wrote works on a larger scale and sometimes in more dramatic mood but not as expansive as Mozart's, rather focussing on his particular strengths: dense, and often monothematic sonata movements (despite sometimes very ordinary, "trivial" material, like the first movement of the B flat major) and variations (4 of 6 slow movements in op.50 have elements of variations).
But he might have done this anyway, even without Mozart, because in retrospect the terse and comical op.33 is the exception (in some respects).

I completely agree with this. Especially the last sentence. Somewhere, a long time ago ,someone came up with the idea of Op 50 being a response to Mozart, and ever since then, some people are intent on 'proving' it. Impossible, of course, even if it were true.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 08, 2015, 04:35:32 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on June 07, 2015, 08:42:55 PM
No, I was wrong to say it's excruciating. Or rather, if I listen on a cheap piece of portable equipment (like I did first time) it is, but not through a good system. Really people who write reviews should say what equipment they're using!

Anyway I relistened to op 50/2 through the good system and thought it was excellent, particularly in the finale, but really everywhere - a quartet which is not so easy to get off the page IMO.

I wonder what got into Haydn to write such a dark piece as op 50/4 - is this the most uncomfortable music Haydn wrote? That icy change in harmony in the middle of the minuet, quite extraordinarily uncomfortable. I mention it partly because I think The Lindsays were right in their element in that one - there's a live recording as well as the set

Agreed.

I'm not really sure about why the f# quartet presents that mood. I would think that Haydn wouldn't be averse to spanning a range of emotions within the opus. It isn't as though the works were intended to stand alone, rather, they were intended to be played as a cycle. I read a fascinating essay on this topic very recently, and I'll cite it here when I get home. There are many places where thoughts which are begun in one work are completed in a different one. I am supposing that an evening at a 'quartet party' was spent exploring an entire opus as though it was one long work. Thus, a balance of moods and thoughts. Just an idea... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on June 08, 2015, 05:01:30 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 08, 2015, 04:35:32 AM
Agreed.

I'm not really sure about why the f# quartet presents that mood. I would think that Haydn wouldn't be averse to spanning a range of emotions within the opus. It isn't as though the works were intended to stand alone, rather, they were intended to be played as a cycle. I read a fascinating essay on this topic very recently, and I'll cite it here when I get home. There are many places where thoughts which are begun in one work are completed in a different one. I am supposing that an evening at a 'quartet party' was spent exploring an entire opus as though it was one long work. Thus, a balance of moods and thoughts. Just an idea... :)

8)

That's an extremely interesting idea, please pursue.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 08, 2015, 05:12:16 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on June 08, 2015, 05:01:30 AM
That's an extremely interesting idea, please pursue.

I will, more later (I'm at work :-\ ). It's actually something I intend to write an essay about, but I may not be knowledgeable enough for that, so tossing what I know in here will allow for some discussion. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 08, 2015, 05:58:55 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on June 08, 2015, 05:01:30 AM
That's an extremely interesting idea, please pursue.

Well, time is pressing right now, but here is the book in which the essay appeared that started me thinking about all this:

[asin]0964031752[/asin]

The essay is called Six of one: The Opus Concept in the Eighteenth Century by Elaine Sisman. Possibly this book is available to you at the library, or mayhap you already have it. Lots of interesting essays in it, of which this is but one. Sisman is a well-known Haydn expert, but the essay itself is not specifically about him, just incidentally.

I need to re-read it, and also find some other documentation, but I will be looking for it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 08, 2015, 07:15:28 PM

I don't think there's any doubt that groups of 6 works were considered exactly that: a group. The number recurs so often in the works of so many composers that it's clear it was seen as the equivalent of an 'album' for 20th century pop music.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on June 08, 2015, 11:19:26 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 08, 2015, 05:58:55 PM
Well, time is pressing right now, but here is the book in which the essay appeared that started me thinking about all this:

[asin]0964031752[/asin]

The essay is called Six of one: The Opus Concept in the Eighteenth Century by Elaine Sisman. Possibly this book is available to you at the library, or mayhap you already have it. Lots of interesting essays in it, of which this is but one. Sisman is a well-known Haydn expert, but the essay itself is not specifically about him, just incidentally.

I need to re-read it, and also find some other documentation, but I will be looking for it. :)

8)

Ah yes, I remember seeing her mentioned by Beghin in connection with the Auerbruggen sonatas. There's an uncomfortable sonata there (36), I mention it because of the f sharp minor quartet.

Does everyone see the similarity in mood between the quartet and the sonata? Maybe I'm fooling myself. Anyway, it would be intersting to make a list of Haydn's uncomfortable music, just to confound those who say he was always cheerful.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on June 08, 2015, 11:43:37 PM

Quote from: orfeo on June 08, 2015, 07:15:28 PM
I don't think there's any doubt that groups of 6 works were considered exactly that: a group. The number recurs so often in the works of so many composers that it's clear it was seen as the equivalent of an 'album' for 20th century pop music.

I think the idea is that the parts respond to each other, converse with each other.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 08, 2015, 11:54:12 PM

I would have to re-listen to the menuetto movement but I never found the f# minor quartet all that "uncomfortable". E.g. the first movement is vigorous but despite the "Beethoven 5th" beginning it goes to the major mode fairly soon. Overall a dramatic piece but not depressive or fatalist, I think.
(For me I guess the most dramatic or uncomfortable quartet is the g minor from op.20. Another movement I find "awkward" is the finale of op.17/4 (c minor).

As for the bundles of six (like eggs and beer bottles), this apparently started because publishing was expensive and buyers of music wanted to get their money worth. The concerti and sonatas around 1700 were shorter so it was usually a dozen to each publication. Some of them (e.g. all of Handel's except op.6 and also Haydn's op.1+2) were compiled by publishers.

For others, as for all Haydn quartets from op.9 the composer clearly wanted to show his diversity within a certain framework. Therefore all pieces in different keys etc. (The most "regular" case is op.33 with two different "patterns" for movement sequence and then a certain variety within these patterns as well. E.g. op.33, 5 has a 6/8 finale and a 2/4 first movement whereas #6 begins with a 6/8 movement and closes with a 2/4 finale. Both have the slow movement in the minor mode whereas the other 4 don't etc.

But I do not think that all six works of an opus were supposed to be played in a row or on one evening or so.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on June 09, 2015, 12:03:26 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on June 08, 2015, 11:54:12 PM
I would have to re-listen to the menuetto movement but I never found the f# minor quartet all that "uncomfortable". E.g. the first movement is vigorous but despite the "Beethoven 5th" beginning it goes to the major mode fairly soon. Overall a dramatic piece but not depressive or fatalist, I think.
(For me I guess the most dramatic or uncomfortable quartet is the g minor from op.20. Another movement I find "awkward" is the finale of op.17/4 (c minor).

As for the bundles of six (like eggs and beer bottles), this apparently started because publishing was expensive and buyers of music wanted to get their money worth. The concerti and sonatas around 1700 were shorter so it was usually a dozen to each publication. Some of them (e.g. all of Handel's except op.6 and also Haydn's op.1+2) were compiled by publishers.

For others, as for all Haydn quartets from op.9 the composer clearly wanted to show his diversity within a certain framework. Therefore all pieces in different keys etc. (The most "regular" case is op.33 with two different "patterns" for movement sequence and then a certain variety within these patterns as well. E.g. op.33, 5 has a 6/8 finale and a 2/4 first movement whereas #6 begins with a 6/8 movement and closes with a 2/4 finale. Both have the slow movement in the minor mode whereas the other 4 don't etc.

But I do not think that all six works of an opus were supposed to be played in a row or on one evening or so.

It's not just the first movement, it's the modulation in the minuet. Bach wrote lots of sets of 6, and for him all numbers are meaningful. 2 lots of the trinity maybe.

Some groups smooth out the uncomfortableness in the quartet, which I think is a shame. Try to hear the Lindsays if you can.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 09, 2015, 05:09:04 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on June 08, 2015, 11:54:12 PM
As for the bundles of six (like eggs and beer bottles), this apparently started because publishing was expensive and buyers of music wanted to get their money worth. The concerti and sonatas around 1700 were shorter so it was usually a dozen to each publication. Some of them (e.g. all of Handel's except op.6 and also Haydn's op.1+2) were compiled by publishers.

For others, as for all Haydn quartets from op.9 the composer clearly wanted to show his diversity within a certain framework. Therefore all pieces in different keys etc. (The most "regular" case is op.33 with two different "patterns" for movement sequence and then a certain variety within these patterns as well. E.g. op.33, 5 has a 6/8 finale and a 2/4 first movement whereas #6 begins with a 6/8 movement and closes with a 2/4 finale. Both have the slow movement in the minor mode whereas the other 4 don't etc.

But I do not think that all six works of an opus were supposed to be played in a row or on one evening or so.

It is a good rule of thumb to not undersell our forefathers, Jo! Actually selling parts had little if anything to do with choosing 12 as the standard number for opuses. 3 and 6 are only there as factors, and 24 as a multiple, but 12 is the magic number. It's true that Haydn's Op 1 & 2 were compiled by Chardonniere in Paris in 1764, but even then, HE added some non-quartet works (Symphony B and the 2 divertimentos for strings and 2 horns, which he dropped the horn parts from) to make the magic number. It was far more important to them than just selling parts.

Yes, Haydn DID want to show diversity within an opus. Thus his choices of key and mode, as well as a variety of moods. I will ask you just this one logic puzzle question since I don't have time for more right now: if Haydn wanted to show variety within an opus, and he keyed them accordingly, how then does it follow that the works are not supposed to be played together? Variety isn't exposed in a vacuum, there has to be something there to juxtapose it against other than your dim memory of what something sounded like a few weeks ago when you heard it last. You didn't have the CD at the house in those day, eh? Oh sure, you could stream it, but... :)

Anyway, I commend this essay to anyone who can get it at their library. It has a nice section about Bach and Corelli too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 09, 2015, 06:11:03 AM

The variety was shown on a more abstract level, for the players of the music who would play the whole opus within a few weeks or months. And of course also for other composers.
If the essay you mention has historical sources that show that it was customary to play all six of an opus in one sitting, I stand corrected. But I think the main reasons were related to publishing not to the practice of playing. There are several cases when Mozart only wrote three or less of a planned opus of 6 pieces. I think this applies to the "Prussian" quartets and the piano quartets (only 2).

I seem to recall that when some of op.71/74 were played in London concerts, those concerts were the usually crazy mix, including one or two symphonies, a concerto, a couple of arias and also a piano solo or a string quartet. Not six symphonies or six quartets all night long.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 09, 2015, 06:38:51 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on June 09, 2015, 06:11:03 AM
The variety was shown on a more abstract level, for the players of the music who would play the whole opus within a few weeks or months. And of course also for other composers.
If the essay you mention has historical sources that show that it was customary to play all six of an opus in one sitting, I stand corrected. But I think the main reasons were related to publishing not to the practice of playing. There are several cases when Mozart only wrote three or less of a planned opus of 6 pieces. I think this applies to the "Prussian" quartets and the piano quartets (only 2).

That is what Mozart produced in the long run, but if you read his letters concerning them, they were planned to be sets of 3 or 6. He just didn't finish them. His first 6 sonatas, he mentions many times in his letters to Leopold as 'I played my 6 sonatas at Cannabich's...' and 'I played my 6 sonatas last night...'.

QuoteI seem to recall that when some of op.71/74 were played in London concerts, those concerts were the usually crazy mix, including one or two symphonies, a concerto, a couple of arias and also a piano solo or a string quartet. Not six symphonies or six quartets all night long.

The so called Op 54/55 and 71/74 were both composed as sets of 6. They were separated by publishers (sort of the opposite to what you are saying!). Originally, Op 64 & 76 were also broken into 2 sets of 3 by publishers. Op 77 was intended to be a set of 3, but Op 103 was never finished.

ALL large public concerts were set up like the London concerts back then. I have some lists of works played, even in Vienna in the 1780s which are set up that way. The only difference in London was that it was the only place to ever have string quartets performed on a stage in front of an audience, much the way they are done now. At the much more typical Viennese and Parisian salons, they would have set up in a room full of people who either listened or didn't as they saw fit. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on June 09, 2015, 08:42:13 AM

As far as I can see just by looking at extracts from Beghin's new book on the web, the key idea in Sisman's paper, tertiary rhetoric, is independent of whether the pieces were actually played together or indeed whether they were intended by the composer to be played in a single sitting. It's a semantic idea -- basically saying that the works in a single opus may refer to each other and respond to each other, echo each other and be inspired by each other, that sort of thing.

It sounds like something very new to me. I've never heard about this for early music -- sets of suites or sets of preludes or fugues for example. Nor for later music -- even though some people claim a holistic quality for Chopin op 28, I don't think it's ever been argued for.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 09, 2015, 09:57:12 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on June 09, 2015, 08:42:13 AM
As far as I can see just by looking at extracts from Beghin's new book on the web, the key idea in Sisman's paper, tertiary rhetoric, is independent of whether the pieces were actually played together or indeed whether they were intended by the composer to be played in a single sitting. It's a semantic idea -- basically saying that the works in a single opus may refer to each other and respond to each other, echo each other and be inspired by each other, that sort of thing.

It sounds like something very new to me. I've never heard about this for early music -- sets of suites or sets of preludes or fugues for example. Nor for later music -- even though some people claim a holistic quality for Chopin op 28, I don't think it's ever been argued for.

Which new book is that, Mandrake? I have his book on rhetoric, I believe she contributed an essay to it. Has he written a new one? That would be cool, his last had an eclectic group of essays, very interesting. She did indeed write an essay on tertiary rhetoric for his first book, but this one is quite different, perhaps an expansion of the other. I'll go back and reread it, it has been over a year and I forget the details.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on June 09, 2015, 10:59:45 AM

This new book

(http://tmm.chicagodistributioncenter.com/IsbnImages/9780226156774.jpg)

http://www.amazon.com/Virtual-Haydn-Paradox-Twenty-First-Century-Keyboardist/dp/022615677X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1433876473&sr=8-1&keywords=virtual+haydn+beghin+book

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 09, 2015, 11:22:35 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on June 09, 2015, 10:59:45 AM
This new book

(http://tmm.chicagodistributioncenter.com/IsbnImages/9780226156774.jpg)

http://www.amazon.com/Virtual-Haydn-Paradox-Twenty-First-Century-Keyboardist/dp/022615677X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1433876473&sr=8-1&keywords=virtual+haydn+beghin+book

Cool! I have both versions of the performances, as well as his other book and some essays he wrote, so it seems like a no-brainer to snap this up! Thanks for pointing it out.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 09, 2015, 03:01:34 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on June 09, 2015, 08:42:13 AM
It sounds like something very new to me. I've never heard about this for early music -- sets of suites or sets of preludes or fugues for example. Nor for later music -- even though some people claim a holistic quality for Chopin op 28, I don't think it's ever been argued for.

...

...You split up Chopin's preludes??

*faints*

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on June 09, 2015, 04:08:13 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 09, 2015, 11:22:35 AM
Cool! I have both versions of the performances, as well as his other book and some essays he wrote, so it seems like a no-brainer to snap this up! Thanks for pointing it out.

8)

That book looks exciting, indeed. I'm even considering the expensive Kindle version.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 09, 2015, 04:23:13 PM

Quote from: Gordo on June 09, 2015, 04:08:13 PM
That book looks exciting, indeed. I'm even considering the expensive Kindle version.

The last one had a great DVD in it with all the examples. Things like that are the one downside of the Kindle version, although maybe not this time. You're right though, cost is almost the same as hardcover!! :o

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 09, 2015, 04:36:58 PM

Well, I just ordered it also. Even the hard copy should be here Friday, so in plenty of time to use for future sonatas essays. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 09, 2015, 11:11:21 PM

Quote from: orfeo on June 09, 2015, 03:01:34 PM
...

...You split up Chopin's preludes??

*faints*

At least the "raindrop" D flat major is often played apart from the rest; many of the shorter ones usually are not.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on June 10, 2015, 04:27:30 AM

There's no aesthetic reason not to split them up or change the order of them as far as I know. Same for The Well Tempered Clavier -- Colin Tilney changes the order.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 10, 2015, 02:10:36 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on June 10, 2015, 04:27:30 AM
There's no aesthetic reason not to split them up or change the order of them as far as I know. Same for The Well Tempered Clavier -- Colin Tilney changes the order.

I don't think Bach's work and Chopin's are remotely the same in this respect.

No aesthetic reason? Sure, apart from losing all the contrasts of tempo, pitch and volume, there's no reason at all!

EDIT: Try playing preludes 1, 3, 5 and 8 together without preludes 2, 4, 6 and 7. Go on, just try it. Then tell me how the ordering of the preludes is random.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 11, 2015, 06:40:13 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on June 09, 2015, 12:03:26 AM
Bach wrote lots of sets of 6, and for him all numbers are meaningful. 2 lots of the trinity maybe.

That would be peculiar theology for Bach. But 2 and 3 are both theologically significant numbers for the Christian (the dual nature of the Christ, and the Trinity), and 2 and 3 are factors of 6.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 11, 2015, 08:02:42 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 11, 2015, 06:40:13 AM
That would be peculiar theology for Bach. But 2 and 3 are both theologically significant numbers for the Christian (the dual nature of the Christ, and the Trinity), and 2 and 3 are factors of 6.

6 is also the first perfect number: it is both the sum and the multiple of its factors (1+2+3=6 1*2*3=6) It was a very important number to people who cared about numbers, and Bach and Haydn both did. Mozart too, for that matter.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 11, 2015, 08:06:09 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 11, 2015, 08:02:42 AM
6 is also the first perfect number: it is both the sum and the multiple of its factors (1+2+3=6 1*2*3=6) It was a very important number to people who cared about numbers, and Bach and Haydn both did. Mozart too, for that matter.

8)

Bien sûr.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on June 11, 2015, 09:37:47 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 11, 2015, 08:02:42 AM
6 is also the first perfect number: it is both the sum and the multiple of its factors (1+2+3=6 1*2*3=6) It was a very important number to people who cared about numbers, and Bach and Haydn both did. Mozart too, for that matter.

8)

But why not four.
The first square number.
The first nonprime.
And it too can be expressed as the sum of its factors (2×2=2+2)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ken B on June 11, 2015, 09:41:08 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 11, 2015, 09:37:47 AM
But why not four.
And it too can be expressed as the sum of its factors (2×2=2+2)

Because 1 is a factor. That's part of the definition of a perfect number.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on June 11, 2015, 09:48:41 AM

Quote from: Ken B on June 11, 2015, 09:41:08 AM
Because 1 is a factor. That's part of the definition of a perfect number.

If 1 is a factor, so is the number itself. 1×6.
1 is therefore the fudge factor.

[Goes off to form Society for the Recognition of the Number One As The First Perfect Number.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on June 11, 2015, 10:25:20 AM

How do you know that Haydn cared about numbers?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 11, 2015, 10:37:21 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on June 11, 2015, 10:25:20 AM
How do you know that Haydn cared about numbers?

It is an inference. It isn't so much that he said so, as that his works are full of little canonic sections, inversions, reflections, cancrizans etc.. And palindromes (retrogrades) too. As well as music, these are all mathematical constructs which couldn't be done by someone without a healthy interest in numbers. Mozart is more overt, there is an interesting story from his sister how, shortly after he started writing music, he one day took a chalk and wrote numbers and formulae all over the walls and floors of the room, he was greatly taken up with them for a long while.

8)

PS - It isn't like I'm going to spend $175 for this book, but you can read samples on Google books, if you Google 'haydn mathematics' and there are some quite interesting inclusions in the samples:

[asin]3642078362[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on June 11, 2015, 11:21:16 AM

Ah yes -- there's a difference between being interested in numbers and being interested in numerology. Was Haydn a free-mason, or did he have any other sort of "spiritual"/"metaphysical" things going on for him?

We were getting close to saying that he was publishing in sixes because he saw something particularly cool about 6. 6 is more perfect that 1,2,3,4,5,7 etc. But any mathematician can find very exciting things about any number -- 1 obviously is the identity in multiplication, 2 the only even prime, 3 the first triangular number, 4 the sum of the first two primes . . .

What I'm getting at is that the cool thing which distinguishes 6 from other numbers is probably not a mathematical thing, it's a metaphysical thing (like two trinities or something, so something to do with the numerical values of letters, that sort of thing.) Presumably there's some metaphysical, spiritual, (neo) platonic, masonic hocus pocus underlying why perfect numbers are called "perfect."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 11, 2015, 11:31:38 AM

Nor need one be a mathematician to be fascinated by numbers; and any composer who works in the medium for any time understands the usefulness of numbers. And if they're going to be of use, why not have a little fun with them?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 11, 2015, 11:33:10 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on June 11, 2015, 11:21:16 AM
Ah yes -- there's a difference between being interested in numbers and being interested in numerology. Was Haydn a free-mason, or did he have any other sort of "spiritual"/"metaphysical" things going on for him?

We were getting close to saying that he was publishing in sixes because he saw something particularly cool about 6. 6 is more perfect that 1,2,3,4,5,7 etc. But any mathematician can find very exciting things about any number -- 1 obviously is the identity in multiplication, 2 the only even prime, 3 the first triangular number, 4 the sum of the first two primes . . .

What I'm getting at is that the cool thing which distinguishes 6 from other numbers is probably not a mathematical thing, it's a metaphysical thing (like two trinities or something, so something to do with the numerical values of letters, that sort of thing.)

He was a Freemason. Sisman does about a page and a half on why 6 & 12 were the magic numbers for opus size. It didn't become 3 until the 1790's, it was 12 for most of the 17th and 18th centuries. Haydn went with 6 because it was a tradition by then. So did Mozart. Bach did too, he didn't invent the concept, he went along with it because there were metaphysical reasons why it made sense to them. IOW, it wasn't just a random or convenient number they (all composers) decided to go with, so to speak. Opuses, and before that 'Books' of works, were all very much of a kind in that regard. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 11, 2015, 11:34:56 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 11, 2015, 11:31:38 AM
Nor need one be a mathematician to be fascinated by numbers; and any composer who works in the medium for any time understands the usefulness of numbers. And if they're going to be of use, why not have a little fun with them?

Even I, an arithmephobe, am fascinated by the peculiarities of certain numbers. Like the 'perfect number' thing I wrote above. I only remembered that because I thought it was cool. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on June 11, 2015, 12:07:10 PM

I wonder where these sets of 6 and 12 begin. You know, even early baroque composers like Chambonnieres, Frescobaldi and Sweelinck didn't publish in them as far as I recall (I need to check that though to be sure), still less so earlier ones like Tye. And there are plenty of baroque exceptions -- 30 Essercizi, for example,and all those orders by Francois Couperin . . .Neither did CPEB.

It's complicated.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 11, 2015, 12:17:26 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on June 11, 2015, 12:07:10 PM
I wonder where these sets of 6 and 12 begin. You know, even early baroque composers like Chambonnieres, Frescobaldi and Sweelinck didn't publish in them as far as I recall (I need to check that though to be sure), still less so earlier ones like Tye. And there are plenty of baroque exceptions -- 30 Essercizi, for example,and all those orders by Francois Couperin . . .Neither did CPEB.

It's complicated.

I really don't want to type out that whole essay, but that info is in there. Probably elsewhere too. Early 18th cent., you have Vivaldi with 12 per opus, Corelli's entire published works consists of 6 opera of 12 each. Then with 6, Bach has 6 suites for keyboard, 6 partitas and sonatas for violin, 6 cello suites, 6 sonatas for violin and harpsichord, 6 Brandenburg concertos... Sisman gives many examples and she didn't even cover all the ones I have at home. Only the big names. Period wise I would say at latest, the Late Baroque, although she mentions several 'Books' of 12 and 24 works too, I just can't remember what they are right now. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 11, 2015, 02:34:40 PM

Interesting all this talk about mathematicallyperfect numbers. The other explanation I'd always heard is that 6 is just short of 7 - now there's a number laden with religious significance. The theory goes that you don't want to be perfect, so you fall just short.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on June 11, 2015, 09:27:14 PM

I supposed that all was sold by dozens.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 11, 2015, 10:53:25 PM

It was just a custom. Of course there are plenty of exceptions (I think Purcell had a collection with 10 sonatas and one Buxtehude and one Handel opus have 7 (probably fault of a publisher); Handel's keyboard suites are 8 in the 1st volume, 9 in the 2nd. And it apparently depends on what kind of works as well. Shorter keyboard pieces would probably not follow that custom.

Haydn kept the 6 groups for string quartets until op.76 but the piano trios are all in groups of 3. CPE Bach has one collection of 4 symphonies, one of 6 (the Hamburg string symphonies) and e.g. the late trios/quatuors are a group of 3.

Mozart got only to a few groups of 6, I think (one each for piano sonatas, two ? of violin sonatas and one of string quartets). He has a few more groups of three (Prussian quartets, last 3 symphonies), but several of two. E.g. two times two string quintets, although he arranged the c minor senerade to make 3 for publication together with the g minor and C major quintet. Many other pieces of Mozart's do not seem to be part of a group.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 12, 2015, 02:30:40 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on June 11, 2015, 10:53:25 PM
Mozart got only to a few groups of 6, I think (one each for piano sonatas, two ? of violin sonatas and one of string quartets).

You might in fact find more groups than that when one looks at publication, rather than composition. Haydn is the same, in that for example there is at least one set of 6 piano sonatas which consists of 5 newly composed works and 1 older one.

We tend to not notice because for these composers the opus numbers, assigned at the time of publication, have largely faded into the background.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on June 12, 2015, 04:05:56 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on June 11, 2015, 10:53:25 PM

Mozart <snip>has a few more groups of three (<snip>last 3 symphonies)

Were the last three symphonies a group? (I ask because of Harnoncourt's ideas, which as far as I know he has never justified publically.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 12, 2015, 04:29:15 AM

Quote from: orfeo on June 12, 2015, 02:30:40 AM
You might in fact find more groups than that when one looks at publication, rather than composition. Haydn is the same, in that for example there is at least one set of 6 piano sonatas which consists of 5 newly composed works and 1 older one.

We tend to not notice because for these composers the opus numbers, assigned at the time of publication, have largely faded into the background.

This is very true. I have been surprised several times to find Haydn actually had an opus of 6 published, when I only know the components as individual works. The sonatas you refer to are the 'Auenbruegger Sonatas. The older work was actually just a good start on a first movement, he completed it for this opus and it is a critical part of his plan for how it lays out. Before that, his "Anno 1776" sonatas were also composed and published as a group of 6. Before that, his '6 Sonatas for Prince Esterházy', well... And the 6 Sonatas for Violin & Viola. There are, earlier times, quite a few groups of sonatas (especially trios) which fall out into 6's, but not enough is known about them to say definitively they were intended that way. And there is a group of 3 divertimentos dating as early as 1755 for the same group of instruments, although since they are in F, G & G, I would wonder about the intent.

I have also seen Harnoncourt's thoughts on Mozart's last 3 symphonies. I'll tell you this: if proof were ever found that he intended them to be an interlocked set and played as one long work, I would be the least surprised person in Texas. Whenever I play them, that's how I do, and have done for years, simply because they sound great like that. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 12, 2015, 05:10:59 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on June 12, 2015, 04:05:56 AM
Were the last three symphonies a group?

I suppose it depends on what one means by a group. He certainly wrote these three the same summer, and for performance on the same concert series. I think it would be peculiarly fussy to maintain that the three symphonies do not comprise some sort of group.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 12, 2015, 05:12:14 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 12, 2015, 04:29:15 AM
I have also seen Harnoncourt's thoughts on Mozart's last 3 symphonies. I'll tell you this: if proof were ever found that he intended them to be an interlocked set and played as one long work, I would be the least surprised person in Texas.

Even if not, they could make a group, I am sure we agree 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on June 12, 2015, 09:00:51 AM

When Harnoncourt says they make a group, he means that they are a single work, with a single order, aim, plan, meaning. That's obviously much stronger than saying that, eg, the Auenbrügger sonatas refer to each other, or op 50 shows off Haydn's range of expression. One thing that's very frustrating about Harnoncourt is that he constantly refers to a Telemann oratorio which is supposed to have been the inspiration for Mozart in those last symphonies, but he doesn't spell it out, so I'm left wondering what he knows that I don't.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on June 12, 2015, 09:21:16 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on June 12, 2015, 09:00:51 AM
When Harnoncourt says they make a group, he means that they are a single work, with a single order, aim, plan, meaning.

Go figure! Mozart was not only a circumstantial Freemoason, he was a devout Cabalist. ;D ;D ;D

QuoteOne thing that's very frustrating about Harnoncourt is that he constantly refers to a Telemann oratorio which is supposed to have been the inspiration for Mozart in those last symphonies, but he doesn't spell it out, so I'm left wondering what he knows that I don't.

Apparently, he knows much more marketing techniques than you do. ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 12, 2015, 09:24:04 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on June 12, 2015, 09:00:51 AM
When Harnoncourt says they make a group, he means that they are a single work, with a single order, aim, plan, meaning.

My opinion is that this is bizarrely overstating the relation among the three late great symphonies.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 12, 2015, 09:28:06 AM

But I'll take one (and probably only one) of whatever that gentleman has been drinking!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on June 12, 2015, 09:30:55 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 12, 2015, 09:28:06 AM
But I'll take one (and probably only one) of whatever that gentleman has been drinking!

I´ll have two, just for fun --- and probably make it three to his Schubert´s set. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on June 12, 2015, 10:48:03 AM

It wasn't a Telemann oratorio, I was misremembering, it was a CPEB one, Die Auferstehung und Himmelfahrt Jesu.

Is there "tertiary rhetoric" between the three last symphonies? Do they share ideas in some way?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on June 12, 2015, 10:50:51 AM

Quote from: Florestan on June 12, 2015, 09:21:16 AM

Apparently, he knows much more marketing techniques than you do. ;D ;D ;D

Marketing is my profession.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 12, 2015, 05:17:01 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on June 12, 2015, 10:48:03 AM
It wasn't a Telemann oratorio, I was misremembering, it was a CPEB one, Die Auferstehung und Himmelfahrt Jesu.

Is there "tertiary rhetoric" between the three last symphonies? Do they share ideas in some way?

They may well share ideas in some way. They wouldn't be the only pieces to do so. For example, Barry Cooper points out in a perfectly reasonable fashion that there are key relationships within Beethoven's "Razumovsky" string quartets that point to a connection between all 3 of them (as well as them having a Russian theme or Russian-sounding one). And he also traces how movements evolved between the last few string quartets.

What he doesn't do is turn it into a gimmicky discovery.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 13, 2015, 12:17:24 AM

I think Harnoncourt is wrong here (although I have not read more of his ideas about the last 3 Mozart symphonies than is easily available online which might be second hand). But it can still be plausible that they form a somewhat tighter "unit" than e.g. Haydn's "Paris" set, especially because for the latter the order of composition is different from today's order and the last piece, #87 is one of the "lighter" ones, the weightiest pieces with elaborate finales are 86 and 82 (and 82 was one of the last of the 6 to be written).

It is not implausible that the extraordinary finale of the "Jupiter" serves in a fashion as finale for the whole triad. Similarly the first piece is the only one with a real and longish introduction. Still, I disagree that the finale of the E flat major is not a proper finale and the g minor should follow immediately. This seems gimmicky to me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 13, 2015, 10:33:19 AM

Quote from: orfeo on June 12, 2015, 05:17:01 PM
... For example, Barry Cooper points out in a perfectly reasonable fashion that there are key relationships within Beethoven's "Razumovsky" string quartets that point to a connection between all 3 of them (as well as them having a Russian theme or Russian-sounding one).

(Not that you are saying so here, but) the fact that there are key relations between them, does not mean "the composer meant for them all to be performed attacca."

The four Brahms symphonies make a nice harmonic suite (C - D - F - E — incidentally, apparently echoing the last movement of the K.551) but who is going to suggest that the composer meant for the four to be played all together at the same performance?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 13, 2015, 10:49:58 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 13, 2015, 10:33:19 AM
(Not that you are saying so here, but) the fact that there are key relations between them, does not mean "the composer meant for them all to be performed attacca."

The four Brahms symphonies make a nice harmonic suite (C - D - F - E — incidentally, apparently echoing the last movement of the K.551) but who is going to suggest that the composer meant for the four to be played all together at the same performance?

But the Brahms were composed over the course of years; the Mozart one within a space of 6 weeks one summer.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 13, 2015, 11:01:50 AM

Brahms may have been playing The Long Game! 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on June 13, 2015, 11:47:52 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 13, 2015, 10:49:58 AM
But the Brahms were composed over the course of years; the Mozart one within a space of 6 weeks one summer.

8)

I once met someone who argued that the four Brahms symphonies should be thought of as a single mega-symphony. She was serious, an academic at Oxford University's Music Dept.

Re tertiary rhetoric, there's a lot of inter-textuality between WTC 2 and WTC 1.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 13, 2015, 12:05:06 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 13, 2015, 11:01:50 AM
Brahms may have been playing The Long Game! 8)

True enough. He would have never lasted working for the Esterházys! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 13, 2015, 02:36:29 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on June 13, 2015, 11:47:52 AM
Re tertiary rhetoric, there's a lot of inter-textuality between WTC 2 and WTC 1.

Certainly. I think there can be no question that Bach (and Mozart) meant to communicate deeper musical truths and connections to (let's use a broad term) peers. But (among many things other) the culture of public performance was very different in Bach's place and time, e.g..

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 13, 2015, 02:40:24 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 13, 2015, 02:36:29 PM
Certainly. I think there can be no question that Bach (and Mozart) meant to communicate deeper musical truths and connections to (let's use a broad term) peers. But (among many things other) the culture of public performance was very different in Bach's place and time, e.g..

And in Mozart's, for that matter. It was only fairly into the beginning of the 19th century that (outside of London) we would see a concertizing culture which we could relate to. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 13, 2015, 02:41:32 PM

Yes, I knew that could be taken further :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 13, 2015, 02:42:46 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 13, 2015, 02:41:32 PM
Yes, I knew that could be taken further :)

I knew you knew. :) I was using rhetoric on a different audience... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 13, 2015, 02:55:03 PM

Just so!

Separately . . . I am finally tucking into the Lumières box, and listening to the Jerusalem Quartet play the Op.33 № 3. Our parakeets agree that this is well dubbed The Bird 0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on June 14, 2015, 10:13:09 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on June 13, 2015, 11:47:52 AM
I once met someone who argued that the four Brahms symphonies should be thought of as a single mega-symphony. She was serious, an academic at Oxford University's Music Dept.

Only an academic would believe it... ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 14, 2015, 11:00:21 AM

It is hard to believe this weekend marks 2 years of essays on the life and times of Joe Haydn! So I ponder that this week, and also have a go at the 5 concertos for Naples. Hope you enjoy. :)

Who would have thought it? (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/06/1787-the-music-part-4-.html)

Thanks to all!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on June 14, 2015, 11:11:28 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 14, 2015, 11:00:21 AM
Joe Haydn

You, of all people! :( :( :( :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 14, 2015, 11:13:26 AM

Quote from: Florestan on June 14, 2015, 11:11:28 AM
You, of all people! :( :( :( :P

OK, OK, Giuseppe Haydn... picky picky! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on June 14, 2015, 11:22:40 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 14, 2015, 11:13:26 AM
Giuseppe Haydn

Why, yes! HIP should extend to names, too. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 14, 2015, 02:54:27 PM

Huzzah!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 14, 2015, 03:20:06 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 14, 2015, 02:54:27 PM
Huzzah!

Merci, mon ami. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 17, 2015, 08:07:08 AM

Cross-post

Quote from: jlaurson on June 17, 2015, 07:36:01 AM
http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/06/why-haydn-should-be-mandatory.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/06/why-haydn-should-be-mandatory.html)

A particularly fine post, Jens.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 17, 2015, 08:19:29 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 17, 2015, 08:07:08 AM
Cross-post

A particularly fine post, Jens.

Yes, good post, good idea. This is why I don't bash MI (NOT Mirror Image, I do bash him sometimes! :D ). I think it is important that the music itself gets played, played well, by whoever wants to play it or hear it. So while my personal taste (and $$ spent) is on period instrument bands, I understand the need for modern performance too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on June 17, 2015, 08:19:47 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 17, 2015, 08:07:08 AM
Cross-post

A particularly fine post, Jens.

Yes, yes, yes! Ten thumbs up for it!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on June 17, 2015, 09:21:21 AM

This idea in Jens's blog is interesting

QuoteThe second and more important reason – and it cannot be made often enough – is that if a large, 'generalist' orchestra doesn't play enough classical music on a regular basis and play it well, eventually it won't be able to play romantic (much less baroque) music well anymore, either. The orchestra's sound coagulates. Thickness enters in place of luxurious sonority; agility gives way to rigidity. A conductor will still be able to make the orchestra sound passable, but the orchestra won't likely be able to adapt to a conductor's particular conception of a work.

As far as I know VPO, BPO, Chicago SO, Concertgebauw didn't play ~~music~~ much classical music in their heyday -- under Furtwangler for example or Solti. VPO were really impressive at adapting to Harnoncourt's conceptions of Brahms. Concertgebouw played Mozart well for him. And all these orchestras still played romantic music well.

So I don't believe that there's a link between playing classical and romantic. As far as baroque goes, my intuition there is that the more interesting connections are with contemporary music, just because in both modern and baroque music there's less emphasis on toe tapping tunes than there is in classical and romantic.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 17, 2015, 09:25:08 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on June 17, 2015, 09:21:21 AM
As far as I know VPO, BPO, Chicago SO, Concertgebauw didn't play music classical music in their heyday -- under Furtwangler for example or Solti.

[asin]B00000423V[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on June 17, 2015, 09:33:48 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 17, 2015, 09:25:08 AM
[asin]B00000423V[/asin]

Sure -- though I've never heard that Solti CD. But what's your point? Clearly they all played some Haydn and Mozart, with Furtwangler and Mengelberg even, but I bet it was a small proportion of their work.

One generalist orchestra who did a lot of classical was VSO with Scherchen. But did it help them become an excellent romantic orchestra?

Added, Oh I see your point now. There's a typo in my post. It should have read "As far as I know VPO, BPO, Chicago SO, Concertgebauw didn't play MUCH classical music in their heyday -- under Furtwangler for example or Solti."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 17, 2015, 10:01:18 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on June 17, 2015, 09:33:48 AM
Sure -- though I've never heard that Solti CD. But what's your point? Clearly they all played some Haydn and Mozart, with Furtwangler and Mengelberg even, but I bet it was a small proportion of their work.

One generalist orchestra who did a lot of classical was VSO with Scherchen. But did it help them become an excellent romantic orchestra?

Added, Oh I see your point now. There's a typo in my post. It should have read "As far as I know VPO, BPO, Chicago SO, Concertgebauw didn't play MUCH classical music in their heyday -- under Furtwangler for example or Solti."

Yes! :) And perhaps we may harmonize your point (that there was an epoch where the Classical symphonic lit was more or less marginalized) with Jens's (that an orchestra plays music from later epochs better, with a more "liberal arts" background, and including the Classical lit in their rep, rather than being narrower "High Romantic specialists").

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 17, 2015, 10:29:45 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 17, 2015, 10:01:18 AM
Yes! :) And perhaps we may harmonize your point (that there was an epoch where the Classical symphonic lit was more or less marginalized) with Jens's (that an orchestra plays music from later epochs better, with a more "liberal arts" background, and including the Classical lit in their rep, rather than being narrower "High Romantic specialists").

Even on MI's, there is no reason they can't play Classic music less like High Romantic. Those who do become much better musicians, IMO. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 17, 2015, 10:48:38 AM

Agreed.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 17, 2015, 01:09:46 PM

I am not sure this is true. There were only a handful or so each of Mozart's and Haydn's symphonies played in the first half of the 20th century but I think that these were played fairly regularly. There were also traditions of playing Bach's St Matthew in Lent both in Amsterdam and Leipzig (and certainly elsewhere). Similarly with Haydn's oratorios, I guess. The Salzburg festival always had a lot of Mozart, not only opera.
And it's only in the last 20 years that Haydn and Mozart are for "HIP" ensembles mainly, maybe 30 in the case of Bach and Handel.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 17, 2015, 04:20:35 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on June 17, 2015, 01:09:46 PM
I am not sure this is true. There were only a handful or so each of Mozart's and Haydn's symphonies played in the first half of the 20th century but I think that these were played fairly regularly. There were also traditions of playing Bach's St Matthew in Lent both in Amsterdam and Leipzig (and certainly elsewhere). Similarly with Haydn's oratorios, I guess. The Salzburg festival always had a lot of Mozart, not only opera.
And it's only in the last 20 years that Haydn and Mozart are for "HIP" ensembles mainly, maybe 30 in the case of Bach and Handel.

Jo,
Oh, it's quite true. Mozart's g minor and 'Jupiter' symphonies, and a scant few of Haydn's London's. Nothing else was deemed worthwhile, and of course, they played the hell out of Mozart's d minor piano concerto, and 'The Creation saw a long life with the ebb and flow of popularity. Mostly though, Mozart was a Rococo twit and Haydn was a lightweight toady of The Prince. Don Giovanni and Die Zauberflöte also hung on quite well.

To be fair, there were always conductors who realized that the way they inherited Mozart and Haydn was not the way they were intended to be played. Thus you had Scherchen and Toscanini and such, trying to do better. But they didn't have scores to go along with their ideas. I'm not sure about Mozart, but Urtext Haydn scores didn't begin to be available until the 1960's, and then, many (most?) old line conductors didn't want anything to do with them. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on June 17, 2015, 06:47:06 PM

This set should get more love than it seems to get.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51eFOmsfSVL._SX300_FMwebp_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 17, 2015, 06:52:29 PM

I don't know, Jeffrey, something about that link is funky. I can't get it to open no matter what I try... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on June 17, 2015, 06:59:48 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 17, 2015, 06:52:29 PM
I don't know, Jeffrey, something about that link is funky. I can't get it to open no matter what I try... :-\

8)

[asin]B0001Y4JHK[/asin]
And at $15 including s/h even Texans can afford it. :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 17, 2015, 07:06:17 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 17, 2015, 06:59:48 PM
[asin]B0001Y4JHK[/asin]
And at $15 including s/h even Texans can afford it. :P

I been busy tonight spending my discretionary capital on Vanhal, actually... 0:)

[asin]B008N2YOQS[/asin]

I shall recreate the famous Quartet Party without the recorded dialog which the estimable Revolutionary Drawing Room have appended to their otherwise brilliant concept album:

[asin]B00PAU1UM2[/asin]

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on June 17, 2015, 07:29:21 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 17, 2015, 07:06:17 PM
I been busy tonight spending my discretionary capital on Vanhal, actually... 0:)

[asin]B008N2YOQS[/asin]

8)

Odd cover image.
Modern quartet grinning with hints of mockery at ghostly Vanhal who clearly is worried these folks are not up to the task of performing his music.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 18, 2015, 03:05:37 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 17, 2015, 10:29:45 AM
Even on MI's, there is no reason they can't play Classic music less like High Romantic. Those who do become much better musicians, IMO. :)

8)

Also agreed. It depends on the music/genre as to how I feel about modern instruments versus period instruments, but I definitely think that modern instrument groups need to convey as far as possible a sense of lightness and transparency.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 18, 2015, 03:36:30 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on June 17, 2015, 01:09:46 PM
I am not sure this is true. There were only a handful or so each of Mozart's and Haydn's symphonies played in the first half of the 20th century but I think that these were played fairly regularly. There were also traditions of playing Bach's St Matthew in Lent both in Amsterdam and Leipzig (and certainly elsewhere). Similarly with Haydn's oratorios, I guess. The Salzburg festival always had a lot of Mozart, not only opera.
And it's only in the last 20 years that Haydn and Mozart are for "HIP" ensembles mainly, maybe 30 in the case of Bach and Handel.

The Salzburg Festival example may actually reinforce the point: the major orchestras neglected Mozart & Haydn, and any focus upon the two was in a cultural ghetto.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 18, 2015, 04:26:48 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 17, 2015, 07:29:21 PM
Odd cover image.
Modern quartet grinning with hints of mockery at ghostly Vanhal who clearly is worried these folks are not up to the task of performing his music.

Yes, it IS a bit odd; I know the players though, and they should be able to do justice to ole John the Baptist. I've never heard any of his quartets before, the rare disks have always been above my price point. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 18, 2015, 04:30:23 AM

Quote from: orfeo on June 18, 2015, 03:05:37 AM
Also agreed. It depends on the music/genre as to how I feel about modern instruments versus period instruments, but I definitely think that modern instrument groups need to convey as far as possible a sense of lightness and transparency.

Which is hard to do. I saw the Atlanta Symphony (Yoel Levy) do a Haydn symphony (an intro to the serious music, of course) and they were stripped down to only 40 players... ::) Twice the number called for, and on instruments which are intended to penetrate a modern concert hall, lightness and transparency are tough goals to achieve. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 18, 2015, 04:37:22 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 18, 2015, 04:30:23 AM
Which is hard to do. I saw the Atlanta Symphony (Yoel Levy) do a Haydn symphony (an intro to the serious music, of course) and they were stripped down to only 40 players... ::) Twice the number called for, and on instruments which are intended to penetrate a modern concert hall, lightness and transparency are tough goals to achieve. :-\

8)

Yes, a challenge! But, orchestral players in our day are frightfully good, it's a challenge they should rise to. And, per Jens, the band benefits musically from the exercise. (Of course, we want it to be beautiful music, and no mere exercise.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 18, 2015, 05:15:27 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 18, 2015, 04:37:22 AM
Yes, a challenge! But, orchestral players in our day are frightfully good, it's a challenge they should rise to. And, per Jens, the band benefits musically from the exercise. (Of course, we want it to be beautiful music, and no mere exercise.)

Yes, and they played well, too, and I suspect they more more challenged than they were later with (easily) twice the players doing Franck's Le Chasseur maudit, which they tossed off like eating breakfast. But challenge is good. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 21, 2015, 11:57:52 AM

I admit, I am a big fan of the arrangements of the 7 Last Words, as well as the certainly original version and the oratorio too. This week I am looking for justice for the keyboard version. See what you think. :)

Going back to the Urtext. Not just for scores anymore! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/06/1787-the-music-part-5-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on June 23, 2015, 01:24:23 AM

Well Gurn, off on vacation in a couple of days time, with Vienna (a few days in the old town) and Budapest on the agenda, and a visit to Ezterhazy in Hungary and Eisentadt as well set up. Hope you're jealous. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 23, 2015, 04:04:45 AM

Sweet! Post pics! 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 23, 2015, 04:19:35 AM

Quote from: The new erato on June 23, 2015, 01:24:23 AM
Well Gurn, off on vacation in a couple of days time, with Vienna (a few days in the old town) and Budapest on the agenda, and a visit to Ezterhazy in Hungary and Eisentadt as well set up. Hope you're jealous. ;)

Damn, you know I am!! Have a great time, don't forget Gumpendorf (just ask the cabbie), and as Karl says, post pics!! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on June 23, 2015, 04:24:06 AM

You just reminded me I need to pack my camera.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 23, 2015, 07:32:06 AM

Okay, now I'd know the answer to this if I'd been paying attention in class, but...

How much does the size of the orchestra vary from Haydn's early symphonies to the late ones (Paris onwards)?

I know he had a larger orchestra in Paris, I just don't know how big the difference is. Or how much variation there was across the Esterhazy years.

The reason I'm asking is because I'm in sampling mode, and listened to some extracts of Hogwood's set on iTunes, and my first thought on trying on some works around symphonies 21 & 22 was "gosh, that sounds a bit thin". And for a minute I thought I was going to find myself in agreement with the fabled Mr Hurwitz...

But when I tried something composed a little later, and it felt like it was a fuller sound. I don't know, maybe it was just a case of my ear adjusting.

And then I listened to Symphony No.1 and it sounded really full!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 23, 2015, 08:38:55 AM

Quote from: orfeo on June 23, 2015, 07:32:06 AM
Okay, now I'd know the answer to this if I'd been paying attention in class, but...

How much does the size of the orchestra vary from Haydn's early symphonies to the late ones (Paris onwards)?

I know he had a larger orchestra in Paris, I just don't know how big the difference is. Or how much variation there was across the Esterhazy years.

The reason I'm asking is because I'm in sampling mode, and listened to some extracts of Hogwood's set on iTunes, and my first thought on trying on some works around symphonies 21 & 22 was "gosh, that sounds a bit thin". And for a minute I thought I was going to find myself in agreement with the fabled Mr Hurwitz...

But when I tried something composed a little later, and it felt like it was a fuller sound. I don't know, maybe it was just a case of my ear adjusting.

And then I listened to Symphony No.1 and it sounded really full!

I can give you exacter numbers later, but early on (Morzin) we are looking at 13 or so players, then early Esterházy maybe 15-17. That grew through the years to the low 20's, which was all he needed before Paris, where they had 50+ players, and London which was even more. So for 21 & 22, which date from 1761 or so, a proper orchestra in Haydn's terms was maybe 15 players. Thin for sure, but all it was written for, 2 oboe parts, 2 horns, 2 violin parts, viola, cello and violone. #22 has trumpets and timpani too, IIRC. It might have, for example, 4 or 5 violins playing the 2 parts, but who can know? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 23, 2015, 01:23:00 PM

If you have a volume of the Hogwood set, there are essays by a musicologist (Webster?) who writes about the orchestra size and Hogwood usually tries to get this right as well. It does sound a bit thin (which might also be due to recording techniques). But if you have his 31 (with the horns) this is very good.
Strings in Esterhazy were something like 3-3-1-1-1 or maybe a little more (or even one violin less). This probably varied a little but as Gurn writes, about 15-20 players.

Of course these pieces were not restricted to Esterhazy but were soon played throughout Europe. BUt except for special occasions most orchestras were probably similarly small.

If Mozart's famous letter about the Paris orchestra is correct, this was more than three times that many players. According to Mozart 40 violins and 10 basses, so this would amount to 60-70 string players, double woodwind, then 2 horns, 2 trumpets and timpani (those would not need doubling).

Most modern recordings have more players for the early symphonies, e.g. strings 6-6-4-3-2 or so, but would use almost the same size for the Paris and London symphonies.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 23, 2015, 07:12:19 PM

Thanks for the comments folks, very helpful.

Time and again when I listen to Haydn, I end up thinking "wow, what a great composer". It's Symphony No.92 today.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 24, 2015, 04:14:01 AM

Quote from: orfeo on June 23, 2015, 07:12:19 PM
Thanks for the comments folks, very helpful.

Time and again when I listen to Haydn, I end up thinking "wow, what a great composer". It's Symphony No.92 today.

Hard not to think that when listening to #92, one of the Great Symphonies. It was no accident he used it as his doctoral thesis at Oxford, at the time it was one of the 3 finest symphonies ever written! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 24, 2015, 04:17:40 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 24, 2015, 04:14:01 AM
Hard not to think that when listening to #92, one of the Great Symphonies. It was no accident he used it as his doctoral thesis at Oxford, at the time it was one of the 3 finest symphonies ever written! :)

8)

That's our "Papa": never one to just phone it in! 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on June 24, 2015, 06:17:59 AM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JuWFiW9OL.jpg)

Wow!

Wow!

Wow!

First listening, work and performance, while driving for an hour and a half to my in--laws home and I´m only halfway through it. Now there is another hour and a half of triple wow awaiting for me for the return driving.

To the already impressive list of Haydn´s achievements I can safely add:

1. the author of an opera which is at least 25 - 30 years ahead of its time
2. the unsung father of belcanto, who could have taught a thing or two even to Bellini or Donizetti
2. the unsung predecessor of Rossini

I. Am. Floored.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 24, 2015, 06:18:45 AM

Get up off the floor and drive! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on June 24, 2015, 06:20:28 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 24, 2015, 06:18:45 AM
Get up off the floor and drive! :)

I stopped driving long time ago, much to my chagrin because I had to stop the music, too. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 24, 2015, 06:23:18 AM

Quote from: Florestan on June 24, 2015, 06:17:59 AM
I. Am. Floored.

Hello, Florestan the Floored 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on June 24, 2015, 07:03:03 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on June 24, 2015, 06:23:18 AM
Hello, Florestan the Floored 8)

Aye, aye, Sargeant, Sir! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 24, 2015, 08:25:12 AM

Quote from: Florestan on June 24, 2015, 06:17:59 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51JuWFiW9OL.jpg)

Wow!

Wow!

Wow!

First listening, work and performance, while driving for an hour and a half to my in--laws home and I´m only halfway through it. Now there is another hour and a half of triple wow awaiting for me for the return driving.

To the already impressive list of Haydn´s achievements I can safely add:

1. the author of an opera which is at least 25 - 30 years ahead of its time
2. the unsung father of belcanto, who could have taught a thing or two even to Bellini or Donizetti
2. the unsung predecessor of Rossini

I. Am. Floored.

I wrote a couple of articles about this opera, the background and all:

The story of the opera (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/11/1780-the-music-part-2-.html)

I think it is super, and I'm not even the world's greatest opera fan! Of course, the biggest knock against Haydn's operas is that he isn't Mozart. Of course, 99.9999% of all other opera composers aren't Mozart either. :D

Anyway, I'm delighted you share my pleasure. ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on June 24, 2015, 08:40:15 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 24, 2015, 08:25:12 AM
The story of the opera (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/11/1780-the-music-part-2-.html)

I can vivdly imagine the storm, the Prince, his anger and the ensuing confusion of his Grenadiers and other employees... That in itself would be a very good topic for an opera buffa... say, La tempesta di Estoras, ossia Le precauzione inutile. :D :D :D

QuoteOf course, the biggest knock against Haydn's operas is that he isn't Mozart. Of course, 99.9999% of all other opera composers aren't Mozart either. :D

You kidding? No Mozart opera is ahead of its time musically, --- but take separate numbers from "La fedelta premiata" and present them anonimously to unsuspecting listeners: if they wouldn´t guess Rossini, Bellini or Donizetti then I know nothing about opera in general and belcanto in particular. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 24, 2015, 08:50:09 AM

Quote from: Florestan on June 24, 2015, 08:40:15 AM
No Mozart opera is ahead of its time musically, --- but take separate numbers from "La fedelta premiata" and present them anonimously to unsuspecting listeners: if they wouldn´t guess Rossini, Bellini or Donizetti then I know nothing about opera in general and belcanto in particular. :D

Well, but it may be that both Haydn, in sounding like Rossini, Bellini or Donizetti before the fact, and Mozart, in sounding like himself, wrote opera which was ahead of the respective time of each 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on June 24, 2015, 08:53:15 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 24, 2015, 08:50:09 AM
Well, but it may be that both Haydn, in sounding like Rossini, Bellini or Donizetti before the fact, and Mozart, in sounding like himself, wrote opera which was ahead of the respective time of each 8)

Well, yes, right --- but there´s nobody more a fanatic than a new convert. :laugh:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 24, 2015, 08:57:07 AM

Enthusiasm is always in season, here in da Haus! 0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on June 24, 2015, 07:53:59 PM

Quote from: Florestan on June 24, 2015, 08:40:15 AM
You kidding? No Mozart opera is ahead of its time musically, --- but take separate numbers from "La fedelta premiata" and present them anonimously to unsuspecting listeners: if they wouldn´t guess Rossini, Bellini or Donizetti then I know nothing about opera in general and belcanto in particular. :D

I have expressed this opinion other times: I don't believe in "progress" in music or in art in general. Perfection is the full realization of a certain form, not the anticipation of forms to come. Even a mediocre artist is able to anticipate some forms of the future.

Additionally, although I'm not an opera fan, I agree with Gurn about Mozart being a supreme master of this genre. I think the reason is that Mozart's output, even the instrumental part, has a certain constant cantabile feature (this is a feeling of mine and I can't explain it properly). On the other hand, the prevalent feature of Haydn isn't cantabile, but "conversational", intended to express ideas always changing, jokes, deep feelings and so on, not always easy to put into the adequate metric.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 25, 2015, 03:19:59 AM

Quote from: Gordo on June 24, 2015, 07:53:59 PM
I have expressed this opinion other times: I don't believe in "progress" in music or in art in general. Perfection is the full realization of a certain form, not the anticipation of forms to come.

To I don't believe in "progress" in music or in art in general . . . yes, and no. If we think of Progress merely in terms of building upon / benefiting from the work already in existence, certainly. If we lapse into thinking of Progress as "necessarily better than what was before," frequently problematic, and often outright false.

To Perfection is the full realization of a certain form, not the anticipation of forms to come . . . perfectly true, and expertly phrased.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 25, 2015, 04:25:16 AM

Yes, progress is such an odd word to try to cope with, because it leads to expectations which are not always met, but doesn't define whether those expectations were realistic to begin with. It is especially true with Haydn's earlier works, which in and of themselves were complete fulfillments of the state of the art such as it was at the time. Often they are ascribed to such inappropriate categories as 'juvenilia' when they are anything but that.

As for Haydn's operas, a fair comparison would be, instead, to the works of Anfossi, Cimarosa, Salieri, or any of another dozen recognized masters of dramma giocoso from that time period. Haydn's works are equal to the best of them. It always helps to remember one thing: by the time Mozart wrote Le Nozze di Figaro, Haydn had already written all the operas he was going to write except for an opera seria for London. So there really is no reasonable comparison. One could ask 'what if Haydn had heard ...Figaro before writing another opera, would it have changed the outcome?'. And of course, we could never know, but knowing Haydn, he would have absorbed whatever good ideas he saw in Figaro and used them to his advantage. He would have been a fool to do otherwise, and he was never that! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 25, 2015, 06:15:30 AM

There's also a valid sense of Progress within a given composer's career; that said, it may be a forest, not a straight line . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on June 25, 2015, 12:07:15 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 25, 2015, 06:15:30 AM
There's also a valid sense of Progress within a given composer's career; that said, it may be a forest, not a straight line . . . .

I don't like the notion of "progress" because it usually involves the assumption that, in a timeline, "the next thing is always a better thing."

From a philosophical point of view, one of the greatest ideals of the XVIII Century (Haydn's century) was the "indefinite progress": the view of human history as a triumphal march towards perfection. But, for instance, after the horrors of nazism and stalinism, just to mention two notorious examples, it's quite difficult to state the superiority of the last century compared to the previous ones. Even into a single human life, sometimes the better things are placed at the very beginning, not at the end or in the middle, and notoriously many geniuses are born almost as a "finished product", so even their early works are "mature" (as Gurn suggested previously).

But I recognize that, at some extent, this is just probably a personal linguistic preference.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 25, 2015, 01:52:25 PM

Quote from: Gordo on June 25, 2015, 12:07:15 PM
I don't like the notion of "progress" because it usually involves the assumption that, in a timeline, "the next thing is always a better thing."

So, as long as we manage the assumptions, it is potentially a useful notion. Generally, a good composer's art waxes better over time; in some way, this should be recognized as a sort of Progress 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 25, 2015, 03:25:26 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 25, 2015, 01:52:25 PM
So, as long as we manage the assumptions, it is potentially a useful notion. Generally, a good composer's art waxes better over time; in some way, this should be recognized as a sort of Progress 8)

FWIW, I feel this implies a stasis in the art which may or may not exist. 'Better' as compared to what? One might well ask. For if composer A got better, his contemporary, Composer B either followed suit (along his own path) or failed to do so, given the background for comparison stayed the same. I know that sounds bizarre, but to make a case of it:

Call 'A' Haydn, to give him a name. Let us say that the average music, composer B, of 1755 is represented by Georg Wagenseil, a very popular and highly considered composer of his time. Give him a numeric value to represent his status. W=8 (out of 10). When Haydn's works were first reaching general circulation in 1758, he was rather quickly held in very high esteem because he quickly mastered Wagenseil's idiom, and was rather innovative in advancing the idiom. So, one can fairly give him a 9, since his work was considered superior to one of the finest composers of the day.

Now, zoom ahead to 1785. Call composer B Mozart. For a true connoisseur of 1785 Vienna, Mozart was recognized as a 10. There weren't many true connoisseurs, but they knew their stuff! Haydn, universally popular at the time, was still considered by connoisseurs to be a 9 because he didn't go for the melodic panoply which exemplified Mozart.

So, a 9 over 8 in 1758 and a 9 under 10 in 1785. What advance has been made through time? Yet who can deny that Haydn's music advanced between 1758 and 1785?

I suppose you will all say that this must only make sense to me, and I don't doubt there is a better explanation out there for the concept, but I don't doubt the phenomenon is real. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on June 26, 2015, 05:47:59 AM

"Everyone has talent at 25. The difficulty is to have it at 50." -Edgar Degas.

I don't think assigning those numeric values is all that, but while Mozart and Haydn both grew better with time, Mozart did so more rapidly when they were contemporaries. The fact that the competition developed doesn't mean that Haydn didn't also develop.
Another matter is that artists don't always develop to create more valuable, 'better' work.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 26, 2015, 05:54:01 AM

Quote from: North Star on June 26, 2015, 05:47:59 AM
Another matter is that artists don't always develop to create more valuable, 'better' work.

Expand on this? (I am not sure this was what you meant, but it put me in mind of a quip about Mendelssohn's "starting out a genius, and winding up 'a major talent'.")

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 26, 2015, 06:07:44 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 26, 2015, 05:54:01 AM
Expand on this? (I am not sure this was what you meant, but it put me in mind of a quip about Mendelssohn's "starting out a genius, and winding up 'a major talent'.")

Well, and your Degas quote, really . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 26, 2015, 06:07:45 AM

Quote from: North Star on June 26, 2015, 05:47:59 AM
"Everyone has talent at 25. The difficulty is to have it at 50." -Edgar Degas.

I don't think assigning those numeric values is all that, but while Mozart and Haydn both grew better with time, Mozart did so more rapidly when they were contemporaries. The fact that the competition developed doesn't mean that Haydn didn't also develop.
Another matter is that artists don't always develop to create more valuable, 'better' work.

Well, they are just arbitrary numbers I put there to make a point. Relative to the prevailing artistic standard of the time, Haydn was the Peak in 1760, and even though he certainly developed a major amount between times, it is possible that despite his "advance", he was actually off-peak relative to the artistic standard of 1785 when we look back at it now. Which is the point I'm trying to make, that 'advancement' and 'progress' aren't necessarily tied to what we retrospectively would call 'improvement'.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 26, 2015, 06:09:01 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 26, 2015, 06:07:45 AM
[...] Which is the point I'm trying to make, that 'advancement' and 'progress' aren't necessarily tied to what we retrospectively would call 'improvement'.

8)

Oui.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on June 26, 2015, 06:11:31 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 26, 2015, 06:09:01 AM
Oui.

Quote from: karlhenning on June 26, 2015, 05:54:01 AM
Expand on this? (I am not sure this was what you meant, but it put me in mind of a quip about Mendelssohn's "starting out a genius, and winding up 'a major talent'.")

Artists have started to repeat themselves without adding any value to their earlier works, and on the other hand some have had more or less fine careers without actually ever 'topping' their earlier efforts. And then there are some who just stop, like Sibelius. We now know that his decision to stop composing had a good deal to do with health and family issues, but nonetheless he stopped and burnt the Eighth Symphony. I ought to name proper examples to back this up, but can't think of any at the moment. :-X

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 26, 2015, 06:25:08 AM

No, there are certainly examples, and if to my view they seem like exceptions, rather they are exceptional in the class of front-ish-rank artists. Rossini, e.g., perhaps.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on June 26, 2015, 06:26:43 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 26, 2015, 06:25:08 AM
Rossini, e.g., perhaps.

You beat me to it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on June 26, 2015, 06:38:05 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on June 26, 2015, 06:25:08 AM
No, there are certainly examples, and if to my view they seem like exceptions, rather they are exceptional in the class of front-ish-rank artists. Rossini, e.g., perhaps.

I did think of Rossini, but even thought he stopped writing operas, he did write during the later parts of his life, and not necessarily less worthy material than before.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 26, 2015, 06:39:16 AM

Glad I thought to add perhaps! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on June 26, 2015, 06:54:44 AM

Quote from: North Star on June 26, 2015, 06:11:31 AM
... And then there are some who just stop, like Sibelius. We now know that his decision to stop composing had a good deal to do with health and family issues, but nonetheless he stopped and burnt the Eighth Symphony.

As an aside, I have always had great interest in artists who decide to destroy their work, particularly burning it. I recall a joke of Borges: his maid (the famous Fanny) accidentally burnt the first manuscript of his book of essays titled The Size of my Hope (El tamaño de mi esperanza). According Borges, she did it because she thought that was a pornographic book... :D

BTW, I think that Alfred North Whitehead got a good approach to the concept of "progress" in "matters of the Spirit" when in 1929 wrote that "the safest general characterization of the European philosophical tradition is that it consists of a series of footnotes to Plato."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on June 26, 2015, 06:57:52 AM

Quote from: Gordo on June 26, 2015, 06:54:44 AM
BTW, I think a Alfred North Whitehead got a good approach to the concept of "progress" in "matters of the Spirit" when in 1929 wrote that "the safest general characterization of the European philosophical tradition is that it consists of a series of footnotes to Plato."

That´s a quite nice bon mot, but what is its musical equivalent? That the safest general characterization of the European musical tradition is that it consists of a series of footnotes to Hildegard von Bingen, perhaps? :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on June 26, 2015, 07:27:05 AM

Quote from: Florestan on June 26, 2015, 06:57:52 AM
That´s a quite nice bon mot, but what is its musical equivalent? That the safest general characterization of the European musical tradition is that it consists of a series of footnotes to Hildegard von Bingen, perhaps? :D

Curiously, I think the name of Plato is almost irrelevant: he was first, but wasn't "the better." He simply talked first and touched almost every relevant issue because the issues are always the same. That's the reason why "progress" is a non-sense in spiritual matters. Every newcomer (when is a true creator) faces the old problems (and expressive needs) as if they were totally new. Only the "instruments" change, but the old questions (and needs of expressing pain, happiness, sorrow) are always the same; that's a good reason, in addition, to reconstruct the instruments of the past (HIP claim) in order to fully understand the responses of the past. My current signature also gives an approach to these sweeping generalizations. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on June 28, 2015, 06:07:38 AM

So, for a complete set of the piano sonatas on a modern piano, who do you guys recommend?

Buchbinder seems like the best price, how is his set?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 28, 2015, 06:15:06 AM

Quote from: George on June 28, 2015, 06:07:38 AM
So, for a complete set of the piano sonatas on a modern piano, is McCabe still the best?

McCabe is very reliable, but I am told that this is the way to go these days:

[asin]B00BHEG6CO[/asin]

I don't know if it a decision which lends itself to listening to samples... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on June 28, 2015, 06:29:00 AM

Thanks, Gurn!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 28, 2015, 06:30:57 AM

Quote from: George on June 28, 2015, 06:29:00 AM
Thanks, Gurn!

You're welcome, George. Sarge says even I would like it, so it must be pretty OK. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 28, 2015, 06:38:11 AM

(* chortle *)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on June 28, 2015, 07:25:28 AM

Yes, I also consider Derzhavina as the best current option to get a complete recording of the piano sonatas on modern piano.

The best incomplete, but substantial, recording of the keyboard sonatas on modern piano is still Alfred Brendel:

[asin]B001JJX7ME[/asin]

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on June 28, 2015, 07:45:44 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 28, 2015, 06:15:06 AM
McCabe is very reliable, but I am told that this is the way to go these days:

[asin]B00BHEG6CO[/asin]

I don't know if it a decision which lends itself to listening to samples... :-\

8)

Spotify samples show a nice, clean energy that is lacking in the Buchbinder set.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 28, 2015, 06:30:57 AM
You're welcome, George. Sarge says even I would like it, so it must be pretty OK. :D

8)

If Sarge likes it (and Jens likes it, and Gordo likes it), then that is all I need to know.

Thanks all, ordered!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 28, 2015, 07:47:30 AM

This week I laid on the research and turned out the next decade of music chronology. Haydn wrote hundreds of works (well a few hundred at least!) in the 1760's, and I have them arranged according to the latest research. Check it out if this stuff interests you!

The 1760's: Wow all that!?! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/06/haydns-music-by-decade-part-2-the-1760s.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 28, 2015, 07:51:39 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 28, 2015, 07:47:30 AM
This week I laid on the research and turned out the next decade of music chronology. Haydn wrote hundreds of works (well a few hundred at least!) in the 1760's, and I have them arranged according to the latest research. Check it out if this stuff interests you!

The 1760's: Wow all that!?! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/06/haydns-music-by-decade-part-2-the-1760s.html)

Thanks,
8)

Busy you have been, O Gurn!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 04, 2015, 02:07:37 PM

Sometimes, when you get an idea, you don't know what you are getting into until it's time to start research. So it was this week. "Let's see, 1788, time to bring Mozart in before he dies on me...". Still, I made some progress, I hope you will find it interesting.

Those rascally Turks, for real this time! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/07/1788-the-year-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on July 04, 2015, 07:23:12 PM

Sidebar.
This new style from Clark's of England landed in our stockroom this week.
Link will reveal why it is appropriate here.
http://m.jcpenney.com/jcp/product.jsp?ppId=pp5005460081

Full disclosure...I work for JCPenney, so I do have a financial interest involved....small overall but important to me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on July 05, 2015, 12:42:50 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 04, 2015, 02:07:37 PM
Sometimes, when you get an idea, you don't know what you are getting into until it's time to start research. So it was this week. "Let's see, 1788, time to bring Mozart in before he dies on me...". Still, I made some progress, I hope you will find it interesting.

Those rascally Turks, for real this time! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/07/1788-the-year-.html)

Thanks,
8)

So, Haydn owned a Schantz fortepiano - good on him! :) Excellent choice..... 8)

I am impressed by your project and the progress you are making, Gurn. :)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 05, 2015, 04:57:18 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 04, 2015, 02:07:37 PM
Sometimes, when you get an idea, you don't know what you are getting into until it's time to start research. So it was this week. "Let's see, 1788, time to bring Mozart in before he dies on me...". Still, I made some progress, I hope you will find it interesting.

Those rascally Turks, for real this time! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/07/1788-the-year-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Most enjoyable.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 05, 2015, 05:39:33 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 04, 2015, 07:23:12 PM
Sidebar.
This new style from Clark's of England landed in our stockroom this week.
Link will reveal why it is appropriate here.
http://m.jcpenney.com/jcp/product.jsp?ppId=pp5005460081

Full disclosure...I work for JCPenney, so I do have a financial interest involved....small overall but important to me.

Quite attractive on a well-turned ankle. I'm guessing from the model name that the pearls are actually hidin'... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on July 05, 2015, 05:42:58 AM

Oh, and I believe we missed it my friend (by a month) but nice job of having your blog up for 2 years running.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 05, 2015, 05:43:42 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 05, 2015, 05:39:33 AM
Quite attractive on a well-turned ankle. I'm guessing from the model name that the pearls are actually hidin'... :D

8)

Antimicrobial moisture management is a Hadyn trademark, indeed.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 05, 2015, 05:59:06 AM

Quote from: Que on July 05, 2015, 12:42:50 AM
So, Haydn owned a Schantz fortepiano - good on him! :) Excellent choice..... 8)

I am impressed by your project and the progress you are making, Gurn. :)

Q

Thanks, Q.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardBilsonSchantzcover.jpg)

Haydn's was by Wenzel Schantz, as opposed to the more well-known Johann. I believe they were cousins, but may be wrong. There are several Johann Schantz fortepianos still in existence, Badura-Skoda has one and plays it on several recordings, and Bilson plays one here. This being because there is no known example of a Wenzel Schantz still in existence. :( It is now believed that Haydn's was not a grand piano style, but a Viennese Square Piano that would have looked like this one:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/1789%20A%20Viennese%20Square%20Piano.jpg)

Thanks for your kind words, sorry to be stuck in my "lecture mode" this AM... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 05, 2015, 06:04:12 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 05, 2015, 04:57:18 AM
Most enjoyable.

Quote from: Bogey on July 05, 2015, 05:42:58 AM
Oh, and I believe we missed it my friend (by a month) but nice job of having your blog up for 2 years running.

Thank you both, much appreciated. As hard work as it is (and no lie, it IS at times!) seeing a result and having so many people come read it makes it worth the effort. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on July 05, 2015, 06:13:34 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 05, 2015, 06:04:12 AM
Thank you both, much appreciated. As hard work as it is (and no lie, it IS at times!) seeing a result and having so many people come read it makes it worth the effort. :)

8)

I am in and out with my Haydn listening. Always have been I guess. He's one of those composers where I "binge listen" when it hits me. I would never relegate this comparison to the next available HBO stream on Amazon, but your blog adds a ton especially the building of his time and what his world was like. Keep cranking, Gurn!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 05, 2015, 06:19:02 AM

Quote from: Bogey on July 05, 2015, 06:13:34 AM
I am in and out with my Haydn listening. Always have been I guess. He's one of those composers where I "binge listen" when it hits me. I would never relegate this comparison to the next available HBO stream on Amazon, but your blog adds a ton especially the building of his time and what his world was like. Keep cranking, Gurn!

Thanks, Bill. That is just my intent; to be a super-deluxe liner note. :) Actually, I try to answer my own questions, and hope they also answer someone else's. Not a lot more one can do, at least from MY seat (back of the class). :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 05, 2015, 06:33:31 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 05, 2015, 06:19:02 AM
Thanks, Bill. That is just my intent; to be a super-deluxe liner note. :)

Dude, you are on course to be ranked among The Best of the Web.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 05, 2015, 06:34:53 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 05, 2015, 06:33:31 AM
Dude, you are on course to be ranked among The Best of the Web.

:-[ Naw,

Thanks, though! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 05, 2015, 06:43:31 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 05, 2015, 05:59:06 AM
Thanks, Q.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnKeyboardBilsonSchantzcover.jpg)

Haydn's was by Wenzel Schantz, as opposed to the more well-known Johann. I believe they were cousins, but may be wrong. There are several Johann Schantz fortepianos still in existence, Badura-Skoda has one and plays it on several recordings, and Bilson plays one here. This being because there is no known example of a Wenzel Schantz still in existence. :( It is now believed that Haydn's was not a grand piano style, but a Viennese Square Piano that would have looked like this one:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/1789%20A%20Viennese%20Square%20Piano.jpg)

Thanks for your kind words, sorry to be stuck in my "lecture mode" this AM... :D

8)

You have inspired me to listen to Mrs. Joanna Leach this morning. Aren't Viennese square pianos, but... :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 05, 2015, 06:53:45 AM

Quote from: Gordo on July 05, 2015, 06:43:31 AM
You have inspired me to listen to Mrs. Joanna Leach this morning. Aren't Viennese square pianos, but... :)

Yes. I really like those English Square Pianos she plays too. True, different sound, yet not inappropriate, given the course of travel of much of Haydn's music! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 05, 2015, 07:20:09 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 05, 2015, 06:53:45 AM
Yes. I really like those English Square Pianos she plays too. True, different sound, yet not inappropriate, given the course of travel of much of Haydn's music! :)

8)

Lovely sound, indeed.

Last Thursday, I attended a recital by Nelson Freire here in Santiago, and I vividly recalled how much, sometimes, I hate the monotony/monochromy of the Steinway grand, when he played Bach and... Beethoven! After that arrived Rachmaninov and Shostakovich and the piano wasn't a problem anymore.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on July 05, 2015, 11:09:40 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 28, 2015, 06:15:06 AM
McCabe is very reliable, but I am told that this is the way to go these days:

[asin]B00BHEG6CO[/asin]

I don't know if it a decision which lends itself to listening to samples... :-\

8)

My set arrived and I started listening today. Uh-oh!

I can't figure out what it is, but there is a noise is, like a "pop" or "click" sound, but it's on my set and two others that I tried from completely different sources. It can be easily heard intermittently throughout the set, but clearly heard on such movements as track 11, CD 01 and track 02, CD 02.

Can folks who have this set please check and see if you hear the noise and can tell me what it is? It's on Spotify as well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 05, 2015, 12:46:56 PM

Quote from: George on July 05, 2015, 11:09:40 AM
My set arrived and I started listening today. Uh-oh!

I can't figure out what it is, but there is a noise is, like a "pop" or "click" sound, but it's on my set and two others that I tried from completely different sources. It can be easily heard intermittently throughout the set, but clearly heard on such movements as track 11, CD 01 and track 02, CD 02.

Can folks who have this set please check and see if you hear the noise and can tell me what it is? It's on Spotify as well.

Man, that sucks!

You know, I have heard that modern pianos, when the hammers bounce back off the check, tend to make a sort of click sound... yet another argument for fortepianos. :D

Beyond that, which I would label as a technical problem until I discover otherwise, how does her playing strike you? Cruising around the Web, she is the best reviewed player I have seen in this rep.

Good luck, amigo,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on July 05, 2015, 12:48:58 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 05, 2015, 12:46:56 PM
Man, that sucks!

You know, I have heard that modern pianos, when the hammers bounce back off the check, tend to make a sort of click sound... yet another argument for fortepianos. :D

Beyond that, which I would label as a technical problem until I discover otherwise, how does her playing strike you? Cruising around the Web, she is the best reviewed player I have seen in this rep.

Good luck, amigo,
8)

Thanks, Gurn!

Can you check this youtube link and tell me what you hear? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om2BdQmdS_k

Even on computer speakers, in just the first minute, I hear the noise at the start (quietly), then louder at 6 seconds, 15 seconds, 20 seconds, 25 seconds, 45 seconds, 55 seconds and 1 minute.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 05, 2015, 12:56:27 PM

Quote from: George on July 05, 2015, 12:48:58 PM
Thanks, Gurn!

Can you check this youtube link and tell me what you hear? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om2BdQmdS_k

Even on computer speakers, in just the first minute, I hear the noise at the start (quietly), then louder at 6 seconds, 15 seconds, 20 seconds, 25 seconds, 45 seconds, 55 seconds and 1 minute.

Man, I don't know; I played it through twice, the second time at full volume, and I couldn't hear that sort of noise circa those (rather specific) timings. Of course, I have damaged hearing so I may not be the best choice for this sort of test, especially if it is in the mid to upper ranges. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on July 05, 2015, 12:58:24 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 05, 2015, 12:56:27 PM
Man, I don't know; I played it through twice, the second time at full volume, and I couldn't hear that sort of noise circa those (rather specific) timings. Of course, I have damaged hearing so I may not be the best choice for this sort of test, especially if it is in the mid to upper ranges. :-\

8)

Thanks. Wow, another person I had check couldn't hear them either. But I hear them clearly, one two different systems and from four different sources.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 05, 2015, 01:00:28 PM

Quote from: George on July 05, 2015, 12:58:24 PM
Thanks. Wow, another person I had check couldn't hear them either. But I hear them clearly, one two different systems and from four different sources.

Avoid old guys for your testing; our hearing usually sucks. :)

Anyway, you didn't answer my question earlier, possibly you didn't have time to think about whether you liked her playing or not. :\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on July 05, 2015, 01:03:11 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 05, 2015, 01:00:28 PM
Avoid old guys for your testing; our hearing usually sucks. :)

I'm 44 going on 45, so how old are we talking here?

QuoteAnyway, you didn't answer my question earlier, possibly you didn't have time to think about whether you liked her playing or not. :\
8)

Her playing is sublime! She's light, playful and the textures have great clarity. And the sound is otherwise spectacular!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on July 05, 2015, 01:04:31 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 05, 2015, 12:46:56 PM
Man, that sucks!

You know, I have heard that modern pianos, when the hammers bounce back off the check, tend to make a sort of click sound... yet another argument for fortepianos. :D

You know, I read elsewhere that they close-miked he piano, so maybe that is what I am hearing. I just never heard it before on a piano recording. :(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 05, 2015, 01:38:45 PM

Quote from: George on July 05, 2015, 01:03:11 PM

I'm 44 going on 45, so how old are we talking here?

Her playing is sublime! She's light, playful and the textures have great clarity. And the sound is otherwise spectacular!!

Oh, I'm 63. And I've done a lot of damaging stuff in my life. I'm a Safety Professional, so I deal with this daily. There is a scale we use to de-rate hearing based on age and gender. It only goes up to age 60; after that, you are well and truly screwed. :)

That's excellent, I knew so many people wouldn't have come on strong about her if she wasn't the cat's ass. I'm just an instrument guy more than a player guy, you know? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 05, 2015, 01:41:47 PM

Quote from: George on July 05, 2015, 01:04:31 PM
You know, I read elsewhere that they close-miked he piano, so maybe that is what I am hearing. I just never heard it before on a piano recording. :(

No, seriously, I was just fucking with you. It is MY sorts of keyboards which do that, although harpsichords are the worst (it's the jack bouncing), clavichords and fortepianos do it too. You get used to it to the point of not hearing it anymore. I think it is 'cured' in modern instruments, at least, I hope it is. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on July 05, 2015, 01:43:54 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 05, 2015, 01:41:47 PM
No, seriously, I was just fucking with you.

Now that's just not nice.... :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 05, 2015, 01:47:41 PM

Quote from: George on July 05, 2015, 01:43:54 PM
Now that's just not nice.... :P

I don't do it often (anymore). Here, wait, I'll call a mod! $:) >:D $:) ;D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on July 05, 2015, 01:52:28 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 05, 2015, 01:47:41 PM
I don't do it often (anymore). Here, wait, I'll call a mod! $:) >:D $:) ;D

8)

Be sure you choose a low ring tone. :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 05, 2015, 01:53:29 PM

Quote from: George on July 05, 2015, 01:52:28 PM
Be sure you choose a low ring tone. :P

:D :D :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 05, 2015, 02:38:16 PM

I am devastated, George. You're totally right, I listened to several times those disks through my speakers and never noticed that demential clicking... But it's very clear.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on July 05, 2015, 02:41:18 PM

I picked up on all of them except the 45 sec one, George. I am by a drain pipe in my Tiki Bunker where I listen to my phonograph and thought that the first one was a drip from a pipe. Played it again and got the same sound. The first was out of the right speaker at 5 sec. Listening to it again, especially the 20 second mark sounds like it is the piano to me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on July 05, 2015, 03:25:23 PM

Quote from: Gordo on July 05, 2015, 02:38:16 PM
I am devastated, George. You're totally right, I listened to several times those disks through my speakers and never noticed that demential clicking... But it's very clear.

Now I am sorry for bringing to your attention.

And I wonder how many of the CDs are afflicted. :(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on July 05, 2015, 03:25:56 PM

Quote from: Bogey on July 05, 2015, 02:41:18 PM
I picked up on all of them except the 45 sec one, George. I am by a drain pipe in my Tiki Bunker where I listen to my phonograph and thought that the first one was a drip from a pipe. Played it again and got the same sound. The first was out of the right speaker at 5 sec. Listening to it again, especially the 20 second mark sounds like it is the piano to me.

Thanks, Bill!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on July 05, 2015, 05:45:38 PM

Quote from: Gordo on July 05, 2015, 02:38:16 PM
I am devastated, George. You're totally right, I listened to several times those disks through my speakers and never noticed that demential clicking... But it's very clear.

I checked and found instances of the noise on all 9CDs. :'(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 05, 2015, 05:47:54 PM

Quote from: George on July 05, 2015, 05:45:38 PM
I checked and found instances of the noise on all 9CDs. :'(

Might be time to drop an email to Hännsler. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 05, 2015, 06:05:02 PM

Quote from: George on July 05, 2015, 05:45:38 PM
I checked and found instances of the noise on all 9CDs. :'(

I'm doing the same. Unfortunately, I don't have the physical set at hand, but I don't really understand how I didn't notice this before.

The playing itself is delightful and totally first rate. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on July 05, 2015, 06:07:19 PM

Quote from: Gordo on July 05, 2015, 06:05:02 PM
I'm doing the same. Unfortunately, I don't have the physical set at hand, but I don't really understand how I didn't notice this before.

Yes, you and many others somehow missed this. I read all over the internet before posting here.

QuoteThe playing itself is delightful and totally first rate. :)

Yes, and the sound is otherwise gorgeous.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 05, 2015, 06:20:17 PM

Quote from: George on July 05, 2015, 06:07:19 PM
Yes, you and many others somehow missed this. I read all over the internet before posting here.

I need to put my hands on the physical disks and to hear them through my principal system.

I don't expect to find something different (we are talking of digital technology), but I want to understand what happened some months ago.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on July 05, 2015, 06:56:22 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 05, 2015, 05:47:54 PM
Might be time to drop an email to Hännsler. :-\

8)

Just did. I only hope that they wrote back in English. :-[

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on July 06, 2015, 06:49:07 PM

So is the Weil 7CD set of Symphonies still highly rated around these parts?

What about the London Symphonies? Who's tops there? I need a 101, 103 and 104. For the rest I have Szell and Walter.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 06, 2015, 07:00:51 PM

Quote from: George on July 06, 2015, 06:49:07 PM
So is Weil still highly rated around these parts?

What about the London Symphonies? Who's tops there? I need a 101, 103 and 104. For the rest I have Szell and Walter.

Weil is hard to beat, although you won't find anything by him of those symphonies (not with Tafelmusik, anyway).

If I was recommending a disk with 101 & 104 (and an excellent 88 to go along with it, it would be this one, despite the fact it is one of the only PI Haydn symphonies disks ever to contend for a Grammy, I like it anyway:

[asin]B004YF8Y9G[/asin]

103 is a much less frequently recorded piece (why??). My choice is Kuijken, who is also very fine in all the London symphonies. As a set, his is the best. Of course, no one set can beat out 12 singles.

They are giving this away right now at $35 on AMP!!!

[asin]B000EBDCUA[/asin]

That's just my opinion, of course. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on July 06, 2015, 07:04:34 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 06, 2015, 07:00:51 PM
Weil is hard to beat, although you won't find anything by him of those symphonies (not with Tafelmusik, anyway).

Sorry, my post should read: So is the Weil 7CD set of Symphonies still highly rated around these parts?

(I have read his readings are a bit bland or "surface," so I wanted to check here)

Quote103 is a much less frequently recorded piece (why??). My choice is Kuijken, who is also very fine in all the London symphonies. As a set, his is the best. Of course, no one set can beat out 12 singles.

They are giving this away right now at $35 on AMP!!!

[asin]B000EBDCUA[/asin]

That's just my opinion, of course. :)

8)

Thanks!!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 06, 2015, 07:07:30 PM

Quote from: George on July 06, 2015, 07:04:34 PM
Sorry, my post should read: So is the Weil 7CD set of Symphonies still highly rated around these parts?

(I have read his readings are a bit bland or "surface," so I wanted to check here)

I don't know, depends who wrote it. I can say that about anything, you would have no way to know if I was full of shit or not. I have never, ever thought that Weil/Tafelmusik was either bland OR 'surface' (whatever that means, really). They consistently sound engaged and into it. I wouldn't trade my Weil disks for anything. Just sayin'... 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on July 06, 2015, 07:09:01 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 06, 2015, 07:07:30 PM
I don't know, depends who wrote it. I can say that about anything, you would have no way to know if I was full of shit or not. I have never, ever thought that Weil/Tafelmusik was either bland OR 'surface' (whatever that means, really). They consistently sound engaged and into it. I wouldn't trade my Weil disks for anything. Just sayin'... 0:)

8)

Good to know, thanks again!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on July 06, 2015, 09:33:28 PM

Quote from: George on July 05, 2015, 12:48:58 PM
Thanks, Gurn!

Can you check this youtube link and tell me what you hear? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om2BdQmdS_k

Even on computer speakers, in just the first minute, I hear the noise at the start (quietly), then louder at 6 seconds, 15 seconds, 20 seconds, 25 seconds, 45 seconds, 55 seconds and 1 minute.

I heard the one at :06 clearly, even through computer speakers with the dishwasher and air conditioner running. The one at :15 was harder to hear but still audible. I stopped after that.

The Tafelmusik symphony set is immaculately played and recorded. It's a convenient way to get the Paris symphonies plus 4 discs of middle-period ones. I am less enthusiastic about it after hearing Harnoncourt's fantastic Paris set -- but that may not matter to you if the middle-period symphonies are what you're after.

For the Londons, I haven't heard enough to make a recommendation. I recently got the Kuijken 103-104 disc but have not spun it yet.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on July 06, 2015, 10:30:16 PM

I checked one of the tracks, disc 2, track 2 from an E flat major without Hoboken number. I can hear something, especially around 3:00 but it is so soft and faint that I would probably not have noticed even with headphones. I remember that there might have been one audible "click" when I listened to the set frequently over speakers a few months ago but I thought that had been a mechanical piano noise or something like that. With those extremely soft ones on said track I am not so sure. The do not sound like hitting a pedal, creaking chair and I would suspect that they might be post-production or "in-production". If this is the case, Haenssler cannot do anything about it. A new batch of discs will not help that and to (re)master the original recordings will certainly be too expensive.

As for the London symphonies: if you can find them (2 twofers), get Brüggen's. He is quite different from Weil's rather lean interpretations, but more interesting to my ears. Otherwise I second Kuijken for 103/104 (have not heard his 101). Vegh has a very good 101 on Orfeo. All three are rather frequently recorded, there are plenty of choices. (The first Haydn LP I heard was Dorati with 94/101.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on July 06, 2015, 10:51:19 PM

The problem with 101 is the minuet, you either need to skip a track or find a performer who plays it fast. Is this Haydn's longest minuet? The second movement can be extraordinary the way it builds in intensity, I want someone to play it in a manic psychedelic way.

Try Norrington (Haensler), and live Brüggen did it with real seriousness and weight - effective. I can't remember the studio recording.

I remember Rosbaud recorded a really good 104 commercially, and a more inspired one for radio with SWF . Did Harnoncourt record it on DVD with VCM? I have a vague memory but maybe it's just wishful thinking. The one with concertgebouw is outstanding.

For 103, one I've been enjoying quite recently is by Lonro von Matačić, and in the past I remember loving Markevitch and Brueggen. Scherchen's 103 is very quirky if I remember right, worth checking out. Same for Harnoncourt, whose drum is totally unforgettable.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on July 06, 2015, 11:14:33 PM

I think the one from 101 is the longest Menuet at least if you discount movements with several trios or chains of variations on a menuet themes. (The other candidate is the one from Mozart's quartet K 387 but I think it is a few bars shorter than the Haydn).
Traditional readings run to more than 8 min, sometimes making the menuet the longest movement of the symphony!
But it is a very good piece if played fast (and the flute solo makes more sense at fast tempo as a somewhat showy piece). Brüggen is good, also Harnoncourt (but he has an uncommonly slow finale many people do not like).

Rosbaud DG has a great and weighty 104 (but the menuet is too slow and the discmate, #92 is better, I think)

I think I also liked Harnoncourt's Concertgebouw 104 but I am not aware of a Concentus musicus DVD (only 92, I believe, with some vocal music with Bartoli)

For some reason, Brüggen, Harnoncourt, Fey also take the first movement of 104 rather slow and weighty. Harnoncourt and especially Fey take the Menuet here crazily fast and the Trio at half speed. I am not fond of this, especially Fey's is absurdly exaggerated. But the menuet (as well as the trio) should be rather fast (just not that fast), otherwise the humorous "breaks" in the phrases with some bars of rest inserted do not work so well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 07, 2015, 04:38:27 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on July 06, 2015, 10:51:19 PM
The problem with 101 is the minuet, you either need to skip a track or find a performer who plays it fast. Is this Haydn's longest minuet? The second movement can be extraordinary the way it builds in intensity, I want someone to play it in a manic psychedelic way.

But you're the guy who abhors personal liberties in performing 19^th-c. music, right? I ask only for information.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 07, 2015, 06:02:33 PM

I have been quite tardy about finishing off the 'Chronology of the Symphonies' series, but I finally got to post the 6th and last bit tonight. If you are curious, here is a link:

Chronology of the London Symphonies (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/07/the-chronology-of-the-symphonies-part-6-1791-1795.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 08, 2015, 05:53:01 AM

Quote from: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on July 07, 2015, 01:03:48 PM
I picked this up, used, for a song and it's one of those recordings that is so good it makes me feel like I must owe someone more money. Arion's attack is so crisp, so lively and joyous and the engineering so present and resonant, I couldn't help but remember when - and why - Haydn was once my favorite composer. Now that's something! Some, likely most, will prefer larger forces in this repertoire; still, they should give this a listen if only to cleanse their listening palate and palette. I am wish listing other recordings by Arion. [Sarge, I see you've heard this recording - whaddya' think?).

[asin] B001OBT3LG[/asin]

This looks very interesting . . . and, though I know the errors can seep in easily, and fixing them is not so much a possibility as quixotic speculation . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 08, 2015, 05:53:45 AM

. . . quakuo ain't Italian, nohow.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on July 08, 2015, 06:34:26 AM

Why on earth are people objecting to having a long Menuet? I mean, if it's any good...

*checks notes* Yep, I've listened to no.101 in the course of my current Haydn late-symphony shuffle. I was in England. I don't remember thinking "gee, I wish this Menuet would hurry up and finish".

PS I went to check out the clicking youtube video and it told me it wasn't available. Odd.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 08, 2015, 06:37:35 AM

Quote from: orfeo on July 08, 2015, 06:34:26 AM
Why on earth are people objecting to having a long Menuet? I mean, if it's any good...

*checks notes* Yep, I've listened to no.101 in the course of my current Haydn late-symphony shuffle. I was in England. I don't remember thinking "gee, I wish this Menuet would hurry up and finish".

PS I went to check out the clicking youtube video and it told me it wasn't available. Odd.

:) That's why I didn't comment. When it comes to Haydn, Mozart or Boccherini, I can't get enough minuet! 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 08, 2015, 06:42:47 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 08, 2015, 05:53:01 AM
This looks very interesting . . . and, though I know the errors can seep in easily, and fixing them is not so much a possibility as quixotic speculation . . . .

QuoteQuote from: ZauberdrachenNr.7 on July 07, 2015, 04:03:48 PM

I picked this up, used, for a song and it's one of those recordings that is so good it makes me feel like I must owe someone more money. Arion's attack is so crisp, so lively and joyous and the engineering so present and resonant, I couldn't help but remember when - and why - Haydn was once my favorite composer. Now that's something! Some, likely most, will prefer larger forces in this repertoire; still, they should give this a listen if only to cleanse their listening palate and palette. I am wish listing other recordings by Arion. [Sarge, I see you've heard this recording - whaddya' think?).

I don't know what Sarge thinks (yes I do, he likes it), but it is also one of MY favorite recordings, which I touted here when I first got it. In all 3 symphonies, they are near the top of the heap of all my recordings.

[DISCLAIMER] Of course, I love the thinner textures of period type recordings, 'larger forces' make me queasy in this repertoire.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on July 08, 2015, 07:35:51 AM

I think the point is that even normal-length menuets are often somewhat generic and can easily get boring.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 08, 2015, 07:45:29 AM

Well, if someone can point out an example of a "generic menuet" in Mozart or Haydn, I am happy to consider the case.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on July 08, 2015, 07:58:44 AM

It's been a while that I listened to them and they are probably better than I recall but I used to find the menuets from Mozart's "Linz" and "Haffner" symphonies, fairly "generic". But they are short, so it's not a problem.

The huge menuets in Haydn's 101 and Mozart's K 387 are anything but generic, though.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 08, 2015, 08:05:00 AM

Quote from: Gordo on July 08, 2015, 07:01:51 AM
Arriaga: The Complete String Quartets
La Ritirata

[asin]B00IK18PR6[/asin]

AFAIK, this is the first complete recording of these string quartets on period instruments. Happy coincidence because the interpretations and sound quality are truly excellent. :)

Sometimes, Juan Crisóstomo Arriaga (1806-1826) has been called "the Spanish Mozart", but after hearing these string quartets, he sounds closer to Haydn, I think. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on July 08, 2015, 08:13:59 AM

Quote from: Gordo on July 08, 2015, 08:05:00 AM
Sometimes, Juan Crisóstomo Arriaga (1806-1826) has been called "the Spanish Mozart", but after hearing these string quartets, he sounds closer to Haydn, I think. :)

Be it as it may, they are some of the finest string quartets ever penned.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 08, 2015, 08:30:50 AM

Quote from: Gordo on July 08, 2015, 08:05:00 AM
Sometimes, Juan Crisóstomo Arriaga (1806-1826) has been called "the Spanish Mozart", but after hearing these string quartets, he sounds closer to Haydn, I think. :)

I have 2 or 3 recordings of the quartets, but none on PI. I reckon it's about time! Thanks, Gordo!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 08, 2015, 08:37:20 AM

Quote from: Florestan on July 08, 2015, 08:13:59 AM
Be it as it may, they are one of the finest string quartets ever penned.

Yes, they are excellent. I used the previous line essentially to call some (deserved) attention over them. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 08, 2015, 08:40:29 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 08, 2015, 08:30:50 AM
I have 2 or 3 recordings of the quartets, but none on PI. I reckon it's about time! Thanks, Gordo!

8)

Yes! I think this is the first interpretation on PI. Well, there is this disk by the Mosaïques:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GutSdPB4L.jpg)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51R3rV%2BnMzL.jpg)

... but, apparently, no gut-strings here. >:(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 08, 2015, 08:48:50 AM

Quote from: Gordo on July 08, 2015, 08:40:29 AM
... but, apparently, no gut-strings here. >:(

You're making the cats more nervous than if they saw a Chinese chef with a cleaver . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 08, 2015, 08:55:42 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 08, 2015, 08:48:50 AM
You're making the cats more nervous than if they saw a Chinese chef with a cleaver . . . .

:D ;D :D

Actually, some years ago I and three friends founded an institution called "Cat's Gut Club" ("Club Tripa de Gato" in Spanish)... We have periodical meetings to share some beers and ideas about music...

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Harry on July 08, 2015, 01:31:00 PM

Quote from: George on July 05, 2015, 11:09:40 AM
My set arrived and I started listening today. Uh-oh!

I can't figure out what it is, but there is a noise is, like a "pop" or "click" sound, but it's on my set and two others that I tried from completely different sources. It can be easily heard intermittently throughout the set, but clearly heard on such movements as track 11, CD 01 and track 02, CD 02.

Can folks who have this set please check and see if you hear the noise and can tell me what it is? It's on Spotify as well.

I have sampled the cd's on which you hear a clicking noise, not on my set I am afraid so its a pressing issue I guess.

I played them through my near field monitors, they are very analytical and if something is wrong you'll hear it, whatever there is that should not be there.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 08, 2015, 03:03:58 PM

Quote from: Gordo on July 08, 2015, 08:05:00 AM
Sometimes, Juan Crisóstomo Arriaga (1806-1826) has been called "the Spanish Mozart", but after hearing these string quartets, he sounds closer to Haydn, I think. :)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 08, 2015, 08:30:50 AM
I have 2 or 3 recordings of the quartets, but none on PI. I reckon it's about time! Thanks, Gordo!

Concerning the Arriaga String Quartets, I own just one recording (shown below) - the Naxos website describes the group below as 'performing on authentic instruments', but there is nothing more offered in the liner notes, so not sure if their instruments are indeed PIs and cannot comment on 'gut strings' - Dave :)

QuoteThe four versatile musicians, Massimo Spadano (1st violin), Mauro Rossi (2nd violin), David Quiggle (viola) and Luigi Piovano (cello), who make up the Camerata Boccherini have a particular interest in performing Baroque and Classical music on authentic instruments. The Camerata Boccherini is a frequent guest at the festivals of Berlin, Paris, Milan, New York, Salzburg, Minori, London, Amsterdam, Vienna, Washington, Boston, Munich, Rome, Madrid, Barcelona, Tokyo, Helsinki and Zurich. Its players perform on authentic Italian instruments.

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-pXV93P8/0/O/Arriaga_SQs.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on July 08, 2015, 03:40:49 PM

Quote from: Harry's on July 08, 2015, 01:31:00 PM
I have sampled the cd's on which you hear a clicking noise, not on my set I am afraid so its a pressing issue I guess.

I played them through my near field monitors, they are very analytical and if something is wrong you'll hear it, whatever there is that should not be there.

Thanks, Harry.

The label has still not responded to my email either.

I decided to let the amazon third party seller know what was going on and requested a refund. They (86books) refunded my money 4 minutes later and said to keep the set.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 08, 2015, 05:02:13 PM

Quote from: George on July 08, 2015, 03:40:49 PM
Thanks, Harry.

The label has still not responded to my email either.

I decided to let the amazon third party seller know what was going on and requested a refund. They (86books) refunded my money 4 minutes later and said to keep the set.

Good customer service.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 08, 2015, 05:04:23 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 08, 2015, 05:02:13 PM
Good customer service.

My guess would be it isn't the first time they've heard this complaint about it. :-\

Glad Harry happened to pop in. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on July 08, 2015, 06:33:51 PM

Quote from: George on July 08, 2015, 03:40:49 PM
Thanks, Harry.

The label has still not responded to my email either.

I decided to let the amazon third party seller know what was going on and requested a refund. They (86books) refunded my money 4 minutes later and said to keep the set.

Let them know in a follow email how impressed we are with their service buddy.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 09, 2015, 06:35:54 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on July 08, 2015, 03:03:58 PM
Concerning the Arriaga String Quartets, I own just one recording (shown below) - the Naxos website describes the group below as 'performing on authentic instruments', but there is nothing more offered in the liner notes, so not sure if their instruments are indeed PIs and cannot comment on 'gut strings' - Dave :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-pXV93P8/0/O/Arriaga_SQs.jpg)

Yes, the booklet states that they are playing "authentic Italian instruments", but there is something weird here because those instruments (particularly the first violin) sound quite modern to me. Maybe the strings and bows are modern; although I may be wrong.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 09, 2015, 07:01:18 AM

Quote from: Gordo on July 09, 2015, 06:35:54 AM
Yes, the booklet states that they are playing "authentic Italian instruments", but there is something weird here because those instruments (particularly the first violin) sound quite modern to me. Maybe the strings and bows are modern; although I may be wrong.

You see this all the time. Joshua Bell, for example, plays an 'authentic Italian instrument", a Strad, in fact. Of course, it has been revised and 'modernized' and has metal strings etc. It is, however, an authentic Italian instrument. I have seen this sort of thing many dozens of times, I've learned it means nothing, really... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on July 09, 2015, 07:03:58 AM

Is there no thread for Arriaga? It seems a pity to have this buried in a 500+ pages Haydn thread...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 09, 2015, 07:10:44 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 09, 2015, 07:01:18 AM
You see this all the time. Joshua Bell, for example, plays an 'authentic Italian instrument", a Strad, in fact. Of course, it has been revised and 'modernized' and has metal strings etc. It is, however, an authentic Italian instrument. I have seen this sort of thing many dozens of times, I've learned it means nothing, really... :-\

8)

Actually, IIRC, the booklets of the Buchbergers say (or suggest by describing them) that they play the Haydn quartets on "original instruments".

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 09, 2015, 07:47:52 AM

Quote from: Gordo on July 09, 2015, 06:35:54 AM
Yes, the booklet states that they are playing "authentic Italian instruments", but there is something weird here because those instruments (particularly the first violin) sound quite modern to me. Maybe the strings and bows are modern; although I may be wrong.

Yes - I agree and plan to listen to the the disc today - quoted below is the last paragraph of an excellent review from Amazon by Scott Morrison, who seems to feel the same (Source (http://www.amazon.com/Arriaga-String-Quartets-Juan-Crisostomo/dp/B000BK53EC/ref=sr_1_1?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1436456614&sr=1-1&keywords=arriaga)) - Dave :)

QuoteThere have been other recordings of these quartets, but I have not heard them. I am, however, satisfied with these fine performances by the Camerata Boccherini, a group with one American and three Italian string players. They are reportedly playing on 'authentic instruments' and I don't know if that means gut-strung instruments from the period in which the quartets were written. Frankly, they sound like modern instruments to me. The recorded sound is crystal clear.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 09, 2015, 08:06:07 AM

Perhaps authentic Italian instruments is meant to distinguish them, not from MI, but from Yamaha 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on July 09, 2015, 08:35:15 AM

Re the talk about menuets, my problem with them is the da capo. I can't remember what he does after the trio in The Clock, but I remember thinking that the third movement isn't very good music.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 09, 2015, 08:55:38 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 09, 2015, 08:06:07 AM
Perhaps authentic Italian instruments is meant to distinguish them, not from MI, but from Yamaha 8)

Everything is possible. ;D

In addition, today we frequently face this paradoxical situation: the age of the instrument doesn't say anything about its "authenticity" (a word highly discredited) because there is a lot of modern replicas faithful to the instruments of the past. As a consequence, old and new are here and now two words quite relative.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on July 09, 2015, 09:01:53 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on July 09, 2015, 07:19:46 AM
Having ignored these recordings for years I am delving into them and finding them very enjoyable. Listening to Vol. 2 today.

(http://www.arkivmusic.com/graphics/covers/non-muze/full/557675.jpg)

1.   Sonata for Keyboard no 19 in E minor, H 16 no 47bis
2.   Sonata for Keyboard no 20 in B flat major, H 16 no 18
3.   Sonata for Keyboard no 32 in G minor, H 16 no 44
4.   Sonata for Keyboard no 48 in C major, H 16 no 35
5.   Sonata for Keyboard no 50 in D major, H 16 no 37

This second volume in Jean-Efflam Bavouzet's Haydn sonata cycle is every bit as outstanding as the first. As previously, he ornaments repeats liberally and observes second-half repeats, playing the codas (if any) only the second time around--a very intelligent decision. Indeed, it works so well that I would be surprised if this doesn't turn out to be one of those "authentic" performance practices that no contemporary sources discuss because it's so obvious on purely musical grounds.

Highlights include the splendid D major sonata (No. 50), the quick outer movements of which Bavouzet invests with irresistible energy. He's equally adept in the slow, songful adagios, particularly the one that begins Sonata No. 19 (in E minor). It's also remarkable how much like updated Scarlatti Sonata No. 32 (in G minor) sounds in Bavouzet's hands. Also as before, the sonics are as brilliant and natural as the playing. A wonderful recital, from first note to last. -- David Hurwitz, ClassicsToday.com

Just out curiosity I listened to the G minor first movement there. What I thought was this: that the music doesn't really benefit from the instrument, it's partly the tuning I think (but I'm not sure, I've got a rubbish ear for that sort of thing, it sounds like it's been tuned to minimise dissonance, maximise beauty.) but even more importantly it's the seperatoion of the voices. When Beghin plays it the timbres of the bass and treble voices are further apart, so it sounds more like a play of voices, a drama of voices. The music's interesting to me mostly because of the way the voices relate, but Bavouzet may have another agenda.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on July 09, 2015, 09:02:52 AM

He does not do anything after the trio. It's a literal da capo of the main menuet part. As in 95% or so of classical menuet or scherzo movements, it holds even for most of Beethoven's.

BTW it's 80 bars menuet (all repeated) and 80 bars of trio (48 of which are repeated), about twice as long as e.g. the menuet from #103

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on July 09, 2015, 09:22:00 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on July 09, 2015, 09:02:52 AM
He does not do anything after the trio. It's a literal da capo of the main menuet part. As in 95% or so of classical menuet or scherzo movements, it holds even for most of Beethoven's.

BTW it's 80 bars menuet (all repeated) and 80 bars of trio (48 of which are repeated), about twice as long as e.g. the menuet from #103

And is the idea in classical style that you play the repeat in the same way or are you supposed to improvise different expression things?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 09, 2015, 10:41:06 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on July 09, 2015, 10:37:03 AM
I just finished listening to the example you cited, and cannot agree with your impression. These performances are so different, mainly because of the instrument, that it is impossible for me to make any meaningful comparison. Beghin's instrument has a much quicker decay giving the music a much less fluid sound, more brittle. Not that it is a bad thing, just a completely different way to hear the music.

Since I have been enjoying so much solo piano music lately, mainly from the mid- to late-19th century, I am happier with Bavouzet's sound. But this is a new thing for me; in the past I always listened to Haydn usually by Beghin, Brautigam or Schornsheim on a variety of period instruments.

I have discovered that Haydn's music is so well writtten, much like Bach in this regard, that when played on the modern piano different colors and aspects are revealed, which were always there simply waiting to emerge. It is not so much a matter of which is correct, or authentic, as opposed to the other; it is my opinion that the entire debate about period instruments being more "authentic" is a canard. We can never duplicate a performance "as Haydn would have heard it" no matter how much we kid ourselves.

For me, depending upon my mood, I can equally enjoy Haydn's solo keyboard music on either a period or modern instrument. However, I still prefer the chamber and symphonic music played on historically accurate instruments.

Yes, which I suppose is why I am content to listen to Hamelin play the sonatas, too.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 09, 2015, 10:55:10 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on July 09, 2015, 09:22:00 AM
And is the idea in classical style that you play the repeat in the same way or are you supposed to improvise different expression things?

You are supposed to do the repeat with ornamentation, the original statement without.

Haydn requires a player who understands some things. In sonatas he wrote for public consumption, that is, publication, he often writes out only the ornamented part, this so the player knows how to do the ornaments. But this assumes the player has his stuff together enough to realize that the first statement of the theme should be without the ornaments. Very few modern players would do it that way because it isn't standard. But in 1780, standards were different. If you played all the ornaments the first time through, then what the hell are you going to play for a repeat? This is one of the reasons that later players, who lacked imagination, perhaps, decided not to play the repeat. Good idea, wrong result. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on July 09, 2015, 11:17:52 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on July 09, 2015, 10:37:03 AM
These performances are so different, mainly because of the instrument, that it is impossible for me to make any meaningful comparison. Beghin's instrument has a much quicker decay giving the music a much less fluid sound, more brittle.

I don't think it's just a question of instruments, though it may be partly that. Gould's phrasing in Haydn, if I remember right, is very short and clipped, and maybe Weissenberg . Both of them use short phrasing, detached hard touch. Rosen too possibly. But sometime when I get home I'll relisten to Bavouzet on my good stereo, maybe that'll make me more favourably inclined.

I should warn you that I'm not at home so can't easily check. I could be typing crap.

I think you can make meaningful comparisons by the way -- you may say that one is more open to to antiphonal and other dramatic ideas in the music, the other is more lyrical. They may not be a way to evaluate them against each other -- I'm not sure, these questions are hard for me to think about.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on July 09, 2015, 11:22:25 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 09, 2015, 10:55:10 AM
You are supposed to do the repeat with ornamentation, the original statement without.

Haydn requires a player who understands some things. In sonatas he wrote for public consumption, that is, publication, he often writes out only the ornamented part, this so the player knows how to do the ornaments. But this assumes the player has his stuff together enough to realize that the first statement of the theme should be without the ornaments. Very few modern players would do it that way because it isn't standard. But in 1780, standards were different. If you played all the ornaments the first time through, then what the hell are you going to play for a repeat? This is one of the reasons that later players, who lacked imagination, perhaps, decided not to play the repeat. Good idea, wrong result. :-\

8)

And in (late) symphonies?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 09, 2015, 11:23:19 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 09, 2015, 10:41:06 AM
Yes, which I suppose is why I am content to listen to Hamelin play the sonatas, too.

Oh, no! That name again! A shudder runs through my back. ??? :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 09, 2015, 12:04:19 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on July 09, 2015, 11:22:25 AM

And in (late) symphonies?

I haven't the vaguest idea about ornaments in orchestras. I know the repeat is to be taken if written, but what they do with it is still a mystery to me. Keyboard is complicated enough!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 09, 2015, 12:05:54 PM

Quote from: Gordo on July 09, 2015, 11:23:19 AM
Oh, no! That name again! A shudder runs through my back. ??? :P

He does a bitchin' Alkan though... >:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on July 09, 2015, 12:15:28 PM

I do not think there was much of improvisation in symphonies. They were played without much rehearsal. Rather different from a piano sonata, I'd say. And e.g. the menuet in question is not a "gallant style" piece that would invite ornamentation (like e.g. the final menuet in the Diabellis, this kind of menuet is quite rare in Haydn). If taken at a quick tempo like by Norrington or Harnoncourt, the flute solo in the trio is virtuosic enough without additional ornamentation. Otherwise such solos would probably be passages where the repeat could be ornamented. But there is not so much one can do with the menuet main part that is played by full orchestra.

I do not see such a problem with a literal repeat of about 2 min of music. It's the same in sonata form movements. If one find this tedious, the music is either played boringly (which is frequently the case in menuets, I am afraid) or the person does not care much about the piece regardless of repeats or da capos.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on July 09, 2015, 12:52:01 PM

Apart from the question of expression, there's also the issue of whether you take (all) the repeats in the da capo. In 101 does anyone know if Haydn writes out the da capo? And anyway what was his normal practice? If he just put a repeat sign then possibly there's a bit more scope for imaginative interpretation.

But anyway, expression goes well beyond ornaments. There's balances obviously, aswell as tempos and rhythms. I'd be really keen to know if anyone can think of a recording of a menuet where the da capo is taken really imaginatively. A nerdy question maybe, but I guess if anyone's got the answer, they're going to be here :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 09, 2015, 01:18:34 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on July 09, 2015, 12:52:01 PM
Apart from the question of expression, there's also the issue of whether you take (all) the repeats in the da capo. In 101 does anyone know if Haydn writes out the da capo? And anyway what was his normal practice? If he just put a repeat sign then possibly there's a bit more scope for imaginative interpretation.

But anyway, expression goes well beyond ornaments. There's balances obviously, aswell as tempos and rhythms. I'd be really keen to know if anyone can think of a recording of a menuet where the da capo is taken really imaginatively. A nerdy question maybe, but I guess if anyone's got the answer, they're going to be here :)

Ici:

Title: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 09, 2015, 01:21:18 PM

How is a string section supposed to improvise ornamentation without sounding merely inept?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 09, 2015, 02:10:04 PM

Hey All - I as on the JPC website today and placed an order for a dozen items (posted in the 'Purchases Thread') - there are a LOT of bargains there @ the moment (and the Euro is now just $1.10 for us in the USA); but, I saw the Tom Beghin box for 19 Euros ($21!) - for those who have not ordered from this German company, there is a 13 Euro fixed shipping rate 'across the pond' - so add some more discs (plenty on special at the moment). Dave :)

(http://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-7gNGZjq/0/O/Screen%20Shot%202015-07-09%20at%205.59.03%20PM.png)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on July 09, 2015, 09:01:30 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 09, 2015, 01:21:18 PM
How is a string section supposed to improvise ornamentation without sounding merely inept?

LOL.

Clearly the conductor's directing them and any changes, ornamentation or whatever, he's planned and rehearsed. Improvised is the wrong word.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on July 09, 2015, 11:36:14 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 09, 2015, 01:21:18 PM
How is a string section supposed to improvise ornamentation without sounding merely inept?

Of course the whole body of strings cannot improvise. But Rattle had woodwinds add ornaments even in the repeat of a sonata form allegro if they had exposed solo themes already in his mid-90s recording of #90. I doubt that this is historically accurate but it works reasonably well.
Many trio sections have extended woodwind or sometimes violin or cello (in 95) soli, so there could be some trills and turns added.
I do not think those pieces need it. As I said, my main recipe would be to play more menuets in whole bars close to a waltz tempo or even faster, at least if the music goes mostly in half and quarter notes.
I also find it exaggerated to do all the double bar repeats in a dacapo (but even most HIPsters do not do this).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 10, 2015, 03:07:42 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on July 09, 2015, 11:36:14 PM
Of course the whole body of strings cannot improvise. But Rattle had woodwinds add ornaments even in the repeat of a sonata form allegro if they had exposed solo themes already in his mid-90s recording of #90. I doubt that this is historically accurate but it works reasonably well.
Many trio sections have extended woodwind or sometimes violin or cello (in 95) soli, so there could be some trills and turns added.
I do not think those pieces need it [...]

I've heard that sort of thing on (happily rare) occasion. I just don't care for it in the least.

Quote from: Mandryka on July 09, 2015, 09:01:30 PM
LOL.

Clearly the conductor's directing them and any changes, ornamentation or whatever, he's planned and rehearsed. Improvised is the wrong word.

Then, the conductor is doing some gloss-composing, for which, if we are taking this as Period Practice, I should be most keen to see the documentation.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on July 10, 2015, 03:46:09 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 10, 2015, 03:07:42 AM
.

Then, the conductor is doing some gloss-composing, for which, if we are taking this as Period Practice, I should be most keen to see the documentation.

And by the same principle the repeat should be identical in solo music too? Or am I missing something?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 10, 2015, 03:54:57 AM

Only the (what seems to me) obvious principle that a solo performer has the space for spontaneous improvisation which a large ensemble by its nature cannot.

If a conductor is planning something, it is not improvisation.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on July 10, 2015, 03:57:12 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 10, 2015, 03:54:57 AM
Only the (what seems to me) obvious principle that a solo performer has the space for spontaneous improvisation which a large ensemble by its nature cannot.

If a conductor is planning something, it is not improvisation.

Yes that's right, but it seems strange to me. I've got to go to a meeting now so I can't really pursue it, but I'm uncomfortable about making the means rather than the result the essential thing. I'll think about what you say some more.

Do performers really do the expression in solo music in a spontaneous way? Don't they plan it? It's not supposed to be a whim is it, a random whim?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 10, 2015, 04:10:48 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on July 10, 2015, 03:57:12 AM
Yes that's right, but it seems strange to me. I've got to go to a meeting now so I can't really pursue it, but I'm uncomfortable about making the means rather than the result the essential thing. I'll think about what you say some more.

Do performers really do the expression in solo music in a spontaneous way? Don't they plan it? It's not supposed to be a whim is it, a random whim?

Back to keyboard; it is supposed to BE planned, but SOUND spontaneous. That is the art of it. This according to CPE Bach and Förkel and everyone else in the 18th century who wrote about ornamentation and other performance issues.

Back to orchestra, people didn't really write about such things back then. Solo performance was the interest. I'm sure there was some small thing they could do, but the real issues were, like, starting and stopping and playing together, violins bowing properly and together, that sort of thing. Big fancy-ass orchestral tricks were products of the 19th century, when they had some time to think about it. Orchestras as fixed groups of players didn't even exist at the beginning of the 18th century... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 10, 2015, 04:29:50 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 10, 2015, 04:10:48 AM
Back to keyboard; it is supposed to BE planned, but SOUND spontaneous. That is the art of it. This according to CPE Bach and Förkel and everyone else in the 18th century who wrote about ornamentation and other performance issues.

Back to orchestra, people didn't really write about such things back then. Solo performance was the interest. I'm sure there was some small thing they could do, but the real issues were, like, starting and stopping and playing together, violins bowing properly and together, that sort of thing. Big fancy-ass orchestral tricks were products of the 19th century, when they had some time to think about it. Orchestras as fixed groups of players didn't even exist at the beginning of the 18th century... :)

8)

Most interesting, thanks. Ad hoc modification of a da capo, with a large ensemble, sounds to me fatally counter-intuitive (maybe my shortcoming, yes). Wind players given leave to go all prima-donna-whimsical, well, if it's in the historical record, I'll reach some sort of reconcilement with it, but I may never care for it artistically. Sounds to me a lot like HIP activism running rather to the wild side.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 10, 2015, 04:43:53 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 10, 2015, 04:29:50 AM
Most interesting, thanks. Ad hoc modification of a da capo, with a large ensemble, sounds to me fatally counter-intuitive (maybe my shortcoming, yes). Wind players given leave to go all prima-donna-whimsical, well, if it's in the historical record, I'll reach some sort of reconcilement with it, but I may never care for it artistically. Sounds to me a lot like HIP activism running rather to the wild side.

Can't be very HIP, can it? :D

Remember Mozart writing to his father about the wonderment in Paris caused by everyone being able to start at the same time? Over in Mannheim, they had been doing that for over 20 years! :o Burney even mentioned it, it was a Big Deal.

HIPsters today, with a few notable exceptions, are only now working up the sack to be able to improvise their own cadenzas. It is the rarity, even now, for someone to improvise their own ornaments or, heaven forfend, to just do a little preluding now and again. So orchestral players, tastefully ornamenting their parts during a da capo, which may or not have even ever been done (I suspect not), seems very unlikely. Any more than the BSO doing it. The car would go out of control and hit a tree, I'm afraid. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 10, 2015, 04:45:43 AM

Safety first!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on July 10, 2015, 07:20:40 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on July 10, 2015, 04:43:37 AM
I have always thought (based on only superficial reading on the topic) that the repeats in Classical symphonies and other sonata forms were there for mainly two reasons: 1) to balance the sections and 2) to give the audience more exposure to the material.

I'm sure balance is right, but nothing follows about whether the repeat needs to be identical.

Re exposure, when Karl writes something, does he think "hmmm, that's a cool tune. Better say it twice so they don't forget?"

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 10, 2015, 08:22:10 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on July 10, 2015, 07:20:40 AM
I'm sure balance is right, but nothing follows about whether the repeat needs to be identical.

Re exposure, when Karl writes something, does he think "hmmm, that's a cool tune. Better say it twice so they don't forget?"

We live in a different world, with recorded technology and phenomenal communications. If it were not for the Internet, you probably would not even know that I am a composer.

So I can write a 15-second piece, knowing that an interested listener will be free to revisit it as often as he wishes.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on July 10, 2015, 08:31:01 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 10, 2015, 04:29:50 AM
Most interesting, thanks. Ad hoc modification of a da capo, with a large ensemble, sounds to me fatally counter-intuitive (maybe my shortcoming, yes). Wind players given leave to go all prima-donna-whimsical, well, if it's in the historical record, I'll reach some sort of reconcilement with it, but I may never care for it artistically. Sounds to me a lot like HIP activism running rather to the wild side.

I like the idea of ornamenting repeats. You're obviously correct that there are some practical differences between a soloist and an orchestra doing it. And I'm not keen on saying, the woodwinds can do this but the strings can't.

But I don't share your objection to the conductor (or perhaps the section leaders) doing some "gloss-composing." This doesn't seem much different than a solo performer planning and practicing his ornaments.

I don't know whether any of this is historically justified. I guess -- like most things -- it boils down to: does it work musically?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 10, 2015, 08:41:10 AM

Quote from: Pat B on July 10, 2015, 08:31:01 AM
But I don't share your objection to the conductor (or perhaps the section leaders) doing some "gloss-composing." This doesn't seem much different than a solo performer planning and practicing his ornaments.

I realize that may be only a personal disinclination.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on July 10, 2015, 01:56:02 PM

I always thought the exposition was repeated so that you can get more familiar with the themes, which will be developed in the development section that follows.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on July 10, 2015, 11:41:44 PM

It's *repeated once* (or played twice) and I also have heard this argument before. Apparently even Brahms is supposed to have said something like that. Only that in Haydn and Mozart very often the second part of a sonata form movement (what we today call development and recapitulation) is supposed to be repeated as well!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on July 10, 2015, 11:50:21 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on July 10, 2015, 11:41:44 PM
It's *repeated once* (or played twice) and I also have heard this argument before. Apparently even Brahms is supposed to have said something like that. Only that in Haydn and Mozart very often the second part of a sonata form movement (what we today call development and recapitulation) is supposed to be repeated as well!

If you go to Paavali Jumppanen's website there's a discussion of repeats in Beethoven where he draws a distinction between structural and rhetorical repeats, he says he takes the repeats differently in they're rhetorical, changing the expression. It's not totally clear to me and it's only about Beethoven. Anyway I guess the da capo in The Clock and elsewhere is structural, if so I guess he'd want to say it's best played identically. But none of this is clear to me.

Someone told me that Rosen also talks about repeats in (early?) Beethoven, and he mentions something about proportions being important to meaning in classical style. I don't understand, and so it's not obvious to me that it has any bearing on how to play a repeat (rather than whether to play a repeat.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on July 11, 2015, 12:58:02 AM

The da capo of a tripartite structure like a standard menuet or scherzo is completely different from the "double bar" repeats (within such structures).

A repeat means AA instead of A or e.g. in a sonata movement with both repeats AA BB (where "B" is something like CA', namely development and recap)

A dacapo *creates* the tripartite structure A B A (with each of A and B often having themselves a bipartite a b or a a' or tripartite structure a b a')

Double bar repeats have been skipped frequently but I am not aware that anyone played a menuet, then the trio and then stopped. If the trio is in a different key (and it is usually at least in a different mood/character) this would mess up the movement, in any case the standard structure would be destroyed.

As these used to be based on dances, repetition was a feature, not a bug because the choreography of the dance demanded certain repetitive structures, I presume. Also these types of movements started out fairly short, so for actual dancing they would probably have been repeated even more than once or twice.

The questions that remain are whether there should be changes when playing repeated or dacapo sections. Obviously this depends on the style and type of music. In baroque opera usually lots or ornamentation was expected, even the first time around and presumeably different trills and stuff in the repeats. Similarly to some baroque instrumental music.

I am far less certain with the classical style, especially menuets (in slowish and or concertante movements as well as some opera (seria) there was probably still quite a bit of ornaments expected, but also frequently already written out by the composer).
These are fastish dance movements so there simply is not as much room for ornamental or other changes as in a slowish aria-style movement (even disregarding the practicality of improvised ornaments in larger ensembles). And most of the time it does not make much musical sense either, I think. It can be a nice "gimmick" but also distracting and frivolous.

If one looks at some features that make some menuets more interesting than others it is very often irregularities in rhythm and phrase length that would make many of them rather unfit for dancing. (Already in several trio section in the quartets op.9 the 3/4 rhythm is so distorted by syncopation/hemiolas that the listener can hardly recognize the time signature (e.g. in op.9#3 G major). I think interpretations should bring out both the lilting, dancing qualities of such movements and their surprises and irregularities. If this is done, I think they are interesting enough without dubious alterations like ornaments.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 11, 2015, 05:24:43 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on July 11, 2015, 12:58:02 AM
Double bar repeats have been skipped frequently but I am not aware that anyone played a menuet, then the trio and then stopped.

Tangentially (and I shall go back and read your entire post, which is warming up quite nicely), somehow this became the structural/performance norm for the "Sousa march."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on July 11, 2015, 07:02:05 AM

Really: So march main part - trio fine instead of main part da capo?

I have not looked at the Bruckner scherzi but most romantic tripartite movements stick more or less to the old da capo although the da capo section it will often be written out with some (usually slight) changes and maybe a little coda tagged on. This is already true of some (but far from all) Beethoven scherzo type movements.

And Haydn does have slightly varied written out dacapos in "tempo di minuetto" final movements in a few piano sonatas and trios I think (most of which also tend to be in more moderate tempi I believe). So he could have done this with the symphonic menuets as well if he had wanted to.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on July 12, 2015, 07:10:21 AM

Quote from: Harry's on July 08, 2015, 01:31:00 PM
I have sampled the cd's on which you hear a clicking noise, not on my set I am afraid so its a pressing issue I guess.

I played them through my near field monitors, they are very analytical and if something is wrong you'll hear it, whatever there is that should not be there.

Thanks again, Harry.

Can you please tell me when and where you bought your set?

Can you also tell me the matrix code for CD 01? I want to have a way to identify a non-defective copy.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 14, 2015, 06:02:26 PM

I enjoyed this:

http://www.youtube.com/v/R8QF3LrqKrA

http://www.youtube.com/v/WzHR46yaveQ

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 14, 2015, 06:19:45 PM

And then, I found this interpretation of the complete concerto, performed by the orchestra Les Siècles (on PI), conducted by François-Xavier Roth:

http://www.youtube.com/v/0hCn6wJs1zw

http://www.youtube.com/v/h3Y6zhGLjnM

http://www.youtube.com/v/hxwa8szwRTw

About the orchestra:

http://www.lessiecles.com

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 14, 2015, 06:59:20 PM

Ah, very nice, thanks, Gordo! Makes me all the more for 1796 to get here so I can wallow in all the trumpet music I have! 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 16, 2015, 03:04:22 PM

Sorry to hear today about the death of Alan Curtis. I know the Bach Backers had reason to like him, but so do we, here in The Haus:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn%20Keyboard%20Curtis%20vol.1.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn%20Keyboard%20Curtis%20vol.2.jpg)

2 of my more favorite disks, in which he plays cembalo, clavichord and fortepiano, one of the first to so so, IIRC. Playing them now for the evening's listening. :(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 16, 2015, 03:53:42 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 16, 2015, 03:04:22 PM
Sorry to hear today about the death of Alan Curtis. I know the Bach Backers had reason to like him, but so do we, here in The Haus:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn%20Keyboard%20Curtis%20vol.1.jpg)(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/Haydn%20Keyboard%20Curtis%20vol.2.jpg)

2 of my more favorite disks, in which he plays cembalo, clavichord and fortepiano, one of the first to so so, IIRC. Playing them now for the evening's listening. :(

8)

I'm playing the first one, too. Lovely disk, splendidly recorded.

Curtis playing is alive, flexible and also full of a sort of authority and total command from the very first note.

Top-notch Haydn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on July 16, 2015, 09:05:54 PM

Hello from Eisenstadt here! Lovely little city.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 17, 2015, 05:43:22 AM

Quote from: The new erato on July 16, 2015, 09:05:54 PM
Hello from Eisenstadt here! Lovely little city.

Say Hi for me!!

Don't take a pass on visiting the Bergkirche, Haydn is buried there. Also is some pretty nice art, judging from the pictures. Speaking of which, don't forget to take some!! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on July 17, 2015, 08:16:47 AM

I did the Kirche, Haydnhouse and Haydnsaal at the Schloss. Though it was veeeeeery hot work, and a family in tow (2 adult children, wife, brother and his wife). Haydn's wig must have been very musty to say the least.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 17, 2015, 08:36:11 AM

Listening this morning to The Desert Island.

I have two versions on period instruments.

One in Italian: L'isola disabitata, performed by the Academia Montis Regalis, conducted by Alessandro de Marchi.

The other one in German:Die wüste Insel, performed by L'Orfeo Barockorchester, conducted by Michi Gaigg.

Both of them are very well interpreted, with the additional attractive of the diversity of languages; but I think the German band has the edge here. Reasons? More compelling orchestra, alive and full of stamina, and a "Constanza" with less vibrato than in the Italian version.

[asin]B005FTXB5M[/asin]

[asin]B00005MKF4[/asin]

Lovely opera, with the usual 18th Century crazy libretto and a little bit anomalous structure. Highly recommended. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 17, 2015, 10:57:56 AM

Quote from: The new erato on July 17, 2015, 08:16:47 AM
I did the Kirche, Haydnhouse and Haydnsaal at the Schloss. Though it was veeeeeery hot work, and a family in tow (2 adult children, wife, brother and his wife). Haydn's wig must have been very musty to say the least.

Very cool (though in a hot sort of way!). I have a lot of pictures of all those places, but seeing them first hand is so much better. You'll be pleased they hung with you the whole time. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 17, 2015, 10:59:49 AM

Quote from: Gordo on July 17, 2015, 08:36:11 AM
Listening this morning to The Desert Island.

I have two versions on period instruments.

One in Italian: L'isola disabitata, performed by the Academia Montis Regalis, conducted by Alessandro de Marchi.

The other one in German:Die wüste Insel, performed by L'Orfeo Barockorchester, conducted by Michi Gaigg.

Both of them are very well interpreted, with the additional attractive of the diversity of languages; but I think the German band has the edge here. Reasons? More compelling orchestra, alive and full of stamina, and a "Constanza" with less vibrato than in the Italian version.

[asin]B005FTXB5M[/asin]

[asin]B00005MKF4[/asin]

Lovely opera, with the usual 18th Century crazy libretto and a little bit anomalous structure. Highly recommended. :)

I have the Marchi disk, it is a nice upgrade from Dorati (which isn't bad itself, really). I have looked at the Gaigg version for a long time, pondering whether I should or shouldn't. I don't mind letting you make those decisions for me; it takes all the pressure off. >:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 17, 2015, 11:05:09 AM

This book just got dropped into the mailbox by the seller:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41PHu9pSMmL._SX373_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

853 pages!! :o

I should receive it next week, it was recommended to me by Denis McCaldin, choral guru and Haydnist. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 17, 2015, 11:10:35 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 17, 2015, 11:05:09 AM
This book just got dropped into the mailbox by the seller:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41PHu9pSMmL._SX373_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

853 pages!! :o

I should receive it next week, it was recommended to me by Denis McCaldin, choral guru and Haydnist. :)

8)

Très cool!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 17, 2015, 11:57:52 AM

Quote from: Gordo on July 17, 2015, 08:36:11 AM
Listening this morning to The Desert Island.

I have two versions on period instruments.

One in Italian: L'isola disabitata, performed by the Academia Montis Regalis, conducted by Alessandro de Marchi.

The other one in German:Die wüste Insel, performed by L'Orfeo Barockorchester, conducted by Michi Gaigg.

Both of them are very well interpreted, with the additional attractive of the diversity of languages; but I think the German band has the edge here. Reasons? More compelling orchestra, alive and full of stamina, and a "Constanza" with less vibrato than in the Italian version.

Lovely opera, with the usual 18th Century crazy libretto and a little bit anomalous structure. Highly recommended. :)

Here is a little bit of background on the opera itself (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/10/1779-the-music-part-3-.html), Haydn's only setting of a libretto by Metastasio, the King of 18th Century operas.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 17, 2015, 11:59:14 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 17, 2015, 11:10:35 AM
Très cool!

I'm hoping so. Fills a big gap in my reference materials. Allegedly readable too; icing on the cake! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 17, 2015, 02:54:17 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 17, 2015, 10:59:49 AM
I have the Marchi disk, it is a nice upgrade from Dorati (which isn't bad itself, really). I have looked at the Gaigg version for a long time, pondering whether I should or shouldn't. I don't mind letting you make those decisions for me; it takes all the pressure off. >:D

8)

Thanks a lot, Gurn. I was forced to listen (again) to the Germans after reading your essay. As I have suspected before, Gluck is apparently an essential composer to explore. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 17, 2015, 02:57:36 PM

Quote from: Gordo on July 17, 2015, 02:54:17 PM
Thanks a lot, Gurn. I was forced to listen (again) to the Germans after reading your essay. As I have suspected before, Gluck is apparently an essential composer to explore. :)

:) I can't remember now if I mentioned in there that the German translation was made within a year or two, and IIRC, the whole thing was premiered in German in Pressburg, within a couple of years. This is the historically compelling reason to acquire the German version, although virtually all of Haydn's operas had similar paths. This is the only one I know which has been recorded though, and so nicely besides! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 17, 2015, 03:06:19 PM

IMO, the Gaigg version is a critical acquisition. All (voices, instrument, recording) is so transparent that this interpretation conveys a sort of sensual essentialism, as it is demanded by the libretto and should be with just 4 singers on stage. Lovely harpsichord continuo, too.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 17, 2015, 03:08:46 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 17, 2015, 02:57:36 PM
:) I can't remember now if I mentioned in there that the German translation was made within a year or two, and IIRC, the whole thing was premiered in German in Pressburg, within a couple of years. This is the historically compelling reason to acquire the German version, although virtually all of Haydn's operas had similar paths. This is the only one I know which has been recorded though, and so nicely besides! :)

8)

My reading comprehension and ability to pay attention are quite weak these days, but I didn't see it mentioned.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 17, 2015, 03:38:18 PM

Quote from: Gordo on July 17, 2015, 03:06:19 PM
IMO, the Gaigg version is a critical acquisition. All (voices, instrument, recording) is so transparent that this interpretation conveys a sort of sensual essentialism, as it is demanded by the libretto and should be with just 4 singers on stage. Lovely harpsichord continuo, too.

:)

Well, I've ordered it, so all will be right with the world again soon. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on July 17, 2015, 03:39:48 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 17, 2015, 11:05:09 AM
This book just got dropped into the mailbox by the seller:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41PHu9pSMmL._SX373_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg)

853 pages!! :o

I should receive it next week, it was recommended to me by Denis McCaldin, choral guru and Haydnist. :)

Hi Gurn - now I love Papa Joe, as you know, but that nearly thousand page book would be a torture for me! :laugh:

NOW, not that I dislike Masses - just checked my database and own 15 discs of Haydn masses and enjoy - I grew up as a Catholic and assume that most (if not all - not sure) of these works are to the same liturgy of that church (please correct me since I've not devoted a lot of reading time to these works vs. simply listening to the wonderful music) - SO, I will be VERY interested in what this book will further add to the great details of your thread - looking forward to your comments! Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 17, 2015, 03:49:22 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on July 17, 2015, 03:39:48 PM
Hi Gurn - now I love Papa Joe, as you know, but that nearly thousand page book would be a torture for me! :laugh:

NOW, not that I dislike Masses - just checked my database and own 15 discs of Haydn masses and enjoy - I grew up as a Catholic and assume that most (if not all - not sure) of these works are to the same liturgy of that church (please correct me since I've not devoted a lot of reading time to these works vs. simply listening to the wonderful music) - SO, I will be VERY interested in what this book will further add to the great details of your thread - looking forward to your comments! Dave :)

Hi, Dave,

Yes, all Roman Catholic. Austria, you know. I'll be honest with you, I can do 853 pages standing on my head. The cumulative total of Landon's Chronicle and Works is around 4500, and I have actually read much of it several times. :-\

I'm not entirely sure what this book will add; it is sort of like firing a rocket into space; you do it on spec and hope there is a payoff. What I'm really hoping is that there are some chapters devoted to the 'lesser sacred works', since there is little or nothing about them in the books I have now. Also, as you know, one of my 'sub-hobbies' is collecting (read: learning about) 18th century Austrian sacred music, and it would be hard to imagine a book of this scope treating Haydn's output as though it existed in a vacuum, so it will be another source of learning material there, too.

Anyway, my Haydn library rivals many major institutions, so filling a glaring gap can only be a good thing, yes? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 18, 2015, 05:41:17 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 17, 2015, 03:49:22 PM
Anyway, my Haydn library rivals many major institutions [...]

That, I have long suspected! May be the most significant Haydn library south of Raleigh-Durham . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 19, 2015, 12:03:44 PM

Who knows why some works get praised to the heavens while others, of equal quality, tend to gather dust on the shelves? This week I look at a couple of symphonies that tend to get rather dustier than they deserve. Dear god, if they had only gotten a name!! :o

The competition must be fierce! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/07/1788-the-music-part-1-.html)

Check it out if you like,
Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 20, 2015, 09:00:32 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 19, 2015, 12:03:44 PM
Who knows why some works get praised to the heavens while others, of equal quality, tend to gather dust on the shelves? This week I look at a couple of symphonies that tend to get rather dustier than they deserve. Dear god, if they had only gotten a name!! :o

The competition must be fierce! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/07/1788-the-music-part-1-.html)

Check it out if you like,
Thanks,
8)

Most enjoyable post (and the music, too, of course).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 20, 2015, 10:01:03 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 20, 2015, 09:00:32 AM
Most enjoyable post (and the music, too, of course).

Thanks, amigo. That one was hard, due to the paucity of information! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on July 20, 2015, 11:25:26 AM

#90 is one of my favorite pieces. I think I prefer it to about half of the "London" set and it certainly deserves to be better known. #91 is less spectacular, a witty piece with the little counterpoint tricks already in the main theme. But I like it quite a bit as well (also the trill apotheosis at the end of the slow mvmt) and there finally is a blazing recording by Jacobs (with the deservedly famous #92).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 20, 2015, 11:34:57 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on July 20, 2015, 11:25:26 AM
#90 is one of my favorite pieces. I think I prefer it to about half of the "London" set and it certainly deserves to be better known. #91 is less spectacular, a witty piece with the little counterpoint tricks already in the main theme. But I like it quite a bit as well (also the trill apotheosis at the end of the slow mvmt) and there finally is a blazing recording by Jacobs (with the deservedly famous #92).

Just the reason I wonder why there isn't more love to spare for these 2 symphonies (along with #89). I find them most enjoyable, including the Jacobs recording. I'm telling you, if they just had a name... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on July 20, 2015, 12:19:10 PM

Didn't some people in the forum come up with goofy names for several hitherto unnamed Haydn symphonies?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 20, 2015, 12:33:08 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on July 20, 2015, 12:19:10 PM
Didn't some people in the forum come up with goofy names for several hitherto unnamed Haydn symphonies?

Phrased that way, it is difficult to agree with you... :D

Personally, I hate named works. But the practice does seem to add to their popularity. For example, #55 (The Schoolmaster) certainly outstrips its (far better IMO) mate, #57 in popularity. And the name is meaningless. Also, again IMO, #43 over #42. Mercury? Seriously? ::)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 20, 2015, 12:40:36 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 20, 2015, 12:33:08 PMFor example, #55 (The Schoolmaster) certainly outstrips its (far better IMO) mate, #57 in popularity. And the name is meaningless. Also, again IMO, #43 over #42. Mercury? Seriously? ::)

100 over 99, just because it's nicknamed the Warmonger? Insanity!! That's why we all have to promote 99 as the "Cat" 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 20, 2015, 12:47:41 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 20, 2015, 12:33:08 PM
Personally, I hate named works.

I never thought to live to read this. ;D :D ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 20, 2015, 12:51:40 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on July 20, 2015, 12:19:10 PM
Didn't some people in the forum come up with goofy names for several hitherto unnamed Haydn symphonies?

The best was Lethe's name for 78: The Stumbling Goat. And she was serious ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 20, 2015, 12:52:02 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 20, 2015, 12:40:36 PM
100 over 99, just because it's nicknamed the Warmonger? Insanity!! That's why we all have to promote 99 as the "Cat" 8)

Sarge

:D Yeah, but 100 actually deserves its fame, name or no. Of course, 99 is no slouch. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 20, 2015, 12:54:31 PM

Quote from: Gordo on July 20, 2015, 12:47:41 PM
I never thought to live to read this. ;D :D ;D

Note though, you never see me use names, unless it is just a point to clarify for someone who doesn't know Hoboken or Opus numbers. I do accept the 1 or 2 actual names Haydn put out there though. Like Tempora mutantur. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 20, 2015, 12:55:51 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 20, 2015, 12:51:40 PM
The best was Lethe's name for 78: The Stumbling Goat. And she was serious ;D

Sarge

Yeah, but that's just a great name for anything from tone poems to stumbling goats! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 20, 2015, 01:00:31 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 20, 2015, 12:54:31 PM
Note though, you never see me use names, unless it is just a point to clarify for someone who doesn't know Hoboken or Opus numbers. I do accept the 1 or 2 actual names Haydn put out there though. Like Tempora mutantur. 0:)

8)

Oh, yes! It has been perfectly clear for years now. I was just referring the difference between hating the named works themselves and hating the act of assigning them a nickname. Bad joke because it needed an explanation. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on July 20, 2015, 01:01:36 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 20, 2015, 12:51:40 PM
The best was Lethe's name for 78: The Stumbling Goat. And she was serious ;D

Sarge

:D ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 20, 2015, 01:04:05 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 20, 2015, 12:54:31 PMLike Tempora mutantur. 0:)

;D :D ;D ...yeah he wouldn't be nearly as popular without that nickname.

I do like most of the nicknames though, especially the ones that make me instantly hear the music in my head (e.g., Bear, Hen, Clock, Military, Surprise). Not so important today, when I know the music more intimately, but a big help keeping track of the immensity of Haydn's output in my early days.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on July 20, 2015, 01:38:35 PM

54,56,57 are all more impressive than that stuffy old schoolmaster for me. I also prefer 42, 46 and 47 to 43.

Regarding 88-92, it's to some extent understandable that the towering masterpieces 88 and 92 overshadow the other three because it is hard to deny that these 2 belong to the very best works of Haydn (and their slow movements are more impressive than even most of the London bunch). But for 90 is almost in their class and while I'd put 91 and the somewhat lighter 89 somewhat below that exalted bunch I do not think they are lesser pieces compared to e.g. 87 or 96 both of which are far better known because they belong to the Paris and London sets.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 20, 2015, 02:31:04 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on July 20, 2015, 01:38:35 PM
54,56,57 are all more impressive than that stuffy old schoolmaster for me. I also prefer 42, 46 and 47 to 43.

Regarding 88-92, it's to some extent understandable that the towering masterpieces 88 and 92 overshadow the other three because it is hard to deny that these 2 belong to the very best works of Haydn (and their slow movements are more impressive than even most of the London bunch). But for 90 is almost in their class and while I'd put 90 and the somewhat lighter 89 somewhat below that exalted bunch I do not think they are lesser pieces compared to e.g. 87 or 96 both of which are far better known because they belong to the Paris and London sets.

Agreed. That's all I was wanting to say anyway. It is hard to assert that 88 & 92 don't deserve accolades; they are indisputable masterpieces. This doesn't make everything else around them terrible though, which is how they get treated many times. It is along the lines of something I've often thought when people say they want new music: listen to some Haydn; I bet 80% of it is totally new to you! (not anyone here, of course; we've heard it all!) :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on July 21, 2015, 01:06:50 AM

BTW I finally got the Kloecker/Consortium Classicum disc (cpo) with the 6 Notturni and it exceeded my expectations.
I think the organ positive (or what they are using) works extremely well and I prefer this to the 2 pieces I had heard in the oboe/flute? versions. The music is light but nevertheless mature Haydn with lots of wit, charming details and so on and completely spoiled me for two other discs with woodwind music I also got a few weeks ago, namely JC Bach's woodwind "symphonies" (w/ Consortium classicum) and Krommer's octets (with Sabine Meyer and friends) that seem rather trite in comparison despite being well played and reasonably entertaining.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 21, 2015, 04:20:25 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on July 21, 2015, 01:06:50 AM
BTW I finally got the Kloecker/Consortium Classicum disc (cpo) with the 6 Notturni and it exceeded my expectations.
I think the organ positive (or what they are using) works extremely well and I prefer this to the 2 pieces I had heard in the oboe/flute? versions. The music is light but nevertheless mature Haydn with lots of wit, charming details and so on and completely spoiled me for two other discs with woodwind music I also got a few weeks ago, namely JC Bach's woodwind "symphonies" (w/ Consortium classicum) and Krommer's octets (with Sabine Meyer and friends) that seem rather trite in comparison despite being well played and reasonably entertaining.

That was my very first disk of the notturnos, and it hasn't been surpassed by getting all of the others since then. I agree, the little organ positiv sounds very fine, but also Haydn's original orchestration included clarinets, which are also missing in the 'London' versions usually heard. These must have been most entertaining works at their original venue! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on July 21, 2015, 04:34:07 AM

yes, it's the sound created by the mix of the little organ with the clarinets that I love. I expected not much more than a curiosity but it's both lot of fun and also more substantial music than I would have thought.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on July 21, 2015, 05:52:36 AM

I use a name if it clearly comes from the music. I mean, "Military" and "Clock" in particular... there's just no way those names weren't going to come up.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 21, 2015, 06:06:43 AM

Quote from: orfeo on July 21, 2015, 05:52:36 AM
I use a name if it clearly comes from the music. I mean, "Military" and "Clock" in particular... there's just no way those names weren't going to come up.

Someone (Sarge?) mentioned earlier that the names were handy for him when he was a newbie, which is exactly the mnemonic sort of usage you are implying here. 100 & 101 are also not too hard to remember, though... or 94, 92, 45, 22.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on July 22, 2015, 12:38:06 AM

Of course it is not really the "fault" of the the named symphonies that their neighbors are not as well known. But often it starts some kind of self-amplifying process leading to even more prominence of the named and famous works and pushing some of the others even further into obscurity. Very few Haydn symphonies have defied such a development, the most famous without a name is probably 88 (because all the unnamed "London" symphonies still belong to the London set which is almost like an individual name).
It's even worse with the string quartets, I think. And it affects recordings and even reissues of recordings. The Eder Quartet recorded op.76 complete for Teldec in the 1980s and the complete set also appeared on CD later on but it is almost impossible to find whereas there have been about five different re-issues by Teldec/warner of the three named pieces (Fifths, Emperor, Sunrise).
And there are uncountable "Larks" and "Riders" but the rest of opp.71,74 and 64 is not all that well covered on disc.

It's worst with the piano trios where I do not find the piece that is by far the most famous and included in almost every 1-2 disc anthology, the "gypsy' trio" G major, all that remarkable, there's probably a dozen Haydn trios I clearly prefer

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 22, 2015, 04:16:35 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on July 22, 2015, 12:38:06 AM
Of course it is not really the "fault" of the the named symphonies that their neighbors are not as well known. But often it starts some kind of self-amplifying process leading to even more prominence of the named and famous works and pushing some of the others even further into obscurity. Very few Haydn symphonies have defied such a development, the most famous without a name is probably 88 (because all the unnamed "London" symphonies still belong to the London set which is almost like an individual name).
It's even worse with the string quartets, I think. And it affects recordings and even reissues of recordings. The Eder Quartet recorded op.76 complete for Teldec in the 1980s and the complete set also appeared on CD later on but it is almost impossible to find whereas there have been about five different re-issues by Teldec/warner of the three named pieces (Fifths, Emperor, Sunrise).
And there are uncountable "Larks" and "Riders" but the rest of opp.71,74 and 64 is not all that well covered on disc.

It's worst with the piano trios where I do not find the piece that is by far the most famous and included in almost every 1-2 disc anthology, the "gypsy' trio" G major, all that remarkable, there's probably a dozen Haydn trios I clearly prefer

And this is where we arrive at the root of the issue for me. There is only so much 'Haydn Interest' to go around, practically speaking, and 75% of it (at least) is lavished on those works which are named. This is not only on record, witness the sets of 'named symphonies' for example, but also in live performance. I have only been to 2 recitals which included Haydn quartets, one of them included 'The Emperor' and the other 'The Lark'. So when people looking at music on a macroscopic scale complain that only the familiar gets played, well the same is true on a microcosmic scale, done to 1 composer in only a few genres, only a few pieces.

Sad really, and one of the big reasons I write so much, to try to encourage people to listen to something they haven't heard before and discover the off-the-path works too.

8)

PS - you don't like 'The Letter V' for #88? It is so descriptive! Well, descriptive of the sort of desperation which drives people to name things. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 22, 2015, 04:49:32 AM

V for Vavoom!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 22, 2015, 05:26:00 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 22, 2015, 04:16:35 AMThis is not only on record, witness the sets of 'named symphonies' for example, but also in live performance. I have only been to 2 recitals which included Haydn quartets, one of them included 'The Emperor' and the other 'The Lark'.

True. in 50 years of concert going I've only heard a few items outside the obvious (i.e., named) symphonies

Aldo Ceccato/Cleveland No.75
Lane/Cleveland No.90

compared to the named:

Szell/Cleveland No.94 "Surprise"
Szell/Cleveland No. 96 "Miracle"
Welser-Möst/LPO No.101 "Clock"
Celibidache/Stuttgart No.104 "London"
Boulez/Cleveland No.26 "Lamentatione"
Kunzel/Cleveland No.45 "Farewell"
Dorati/Cleveland No.60 "Il Distratto"
Kubelik/Cleveland No.98 (one of the Londons)

The only Haydn quartet I've heard live is Op.77/1, not named but still an obvious choice? In any case, it's my favorite; I consider myself lucky to have heard it.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 22, 2015, 05:29:24 AM

We're all affirming that the nicknames are an easy magnet, and that worthy music suffers from un-nicknamed neglect.

Oh, I didn't add anything, did I? 0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 22, 2015, 05:53:57 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 22, 2015, 05:29:24 AM
We're all affirming that the nicknames are an easy magnet, and that worthy music suffers from un-nicknamed neglect.

Oh, I didn't add anything, did I? 0:)

That's OK, Karl, no one expected you to. >:D But anyway, yes we are. :)

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 22, 2015, 05:26:00 AM
True. in 50 years of concert going I've only heard a few items outside the obvious (i.e., named) symphonies

Aldo Ceccato/Cleveland No.75
Lane/Cleveland No.90

compared to the named:

Szell/Cleveland No.94 "Surprise"
Szell/Cleveland No. 96 "Miracle"
Welser-Möst/LPO No.101 "Clock"
Celibidache/Stuttgart No.104 "London"
Boulez/Cleveland No.26 "Lamentatione"
Kunzel/Cleveland No.45 "Farewell"
Dorati/Cleveland No.60 "Il Distratto"
Kubelik/Cleveland No.98 (one of the Londons)

The only Haydn quartet I've heard live is Op.77/1, not named but still an obvious choice? In any case, it's my favorite; I consider myself lucky to have heard it.

Sarge

QED :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 22, 2015, 06:25:01 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 22, 2015, 05:53:57 AM
That's OK, Karl, no one expected you to. >:D

Yikes, a good job I knows we're all mates here 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 22, 2015, 06:50:25 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 22, 2015, 06:25:01 AM
Yikes, a good job I knows we're all mates here 8)

:D If your friends can't jab you, who can? 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on July 22, 2015, 07:13:21 AM

The obvious solution is to give everything a nickname. That way, no pieces will be underperformed due to not having a nickname.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 22, 2015, 07:14:19 AM

Quote from: Pat B on July 22, 2015, 07:13:21 AM
The obvious solution is to give everything a nickname. That way, no pieces will be underperformed due to not having a nickname.

Some in the Haus are attempting just that 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 22, 2015, 07:18:13 AM

Quote from: Pat B on July 22, 2015, 07:13:21 AM
The obvious solution is to give everything a nickname. That way, no pieces will be underperformed due to not having a nickname.

How will you remember all those names??

Just FYI; the plague even extends to the Baryton Trios! :o #97, the so called 'Birthday Trio' appears on every single baryton trio disk I have, except in multiple sets where it only appears on one disk of the set. I personally own 10 versions of it. Want one? :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on July 22, 2015, 07:20:04 AM

Hmm, I know I have seen the Pavel Haas Quartet perform a Haydn quartet, but can't remember which one. My listening log at home would contain the answer.

The PHQ toured last year with Op. 76 No. 5 in D.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 22, 2015, 08:07:48 AM

Quote from: Brian on July 22, 2015, 07:20:04 AM
Hmm, I know I have seen the Pavel Haas Quartet perform a Haydn quartet, but can't remember which one. My listening log at home would contain the answer.

The PHQ toured last year with Op. 76 No. 5 in D.

The only time I recall hearing a quartet performed live, it was the Brentano Quartet (on a program which included the Schoenberg Ode to Napoleon Buonaparte and the première of the Wuorinen Second Pf Quintet) playing the "Fifths."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Camphy on July 22, 2015, 08:24:02 AM

Although I do not disagree with the general points being made, my own experiences have been slightly different. I have been to four chamber recitals featuring a Haydn quartet, and none of those quartets were of the very popular group: SQ 76/1, 76/5, 71/1 & 50/2. Granted, 76/5 has a nickname, but it does not belong to the most popular quartets of that opus.
Unfortunately, at the time when I heard SQ 50/2 (played by the Quatuor Mosaiques) I hadn't explored Haydn at all. While now a Haydn quartet would be a standout feature for me on almost any chamber programme, my reason back then for attending the recital was a performance of Beethoven's Op. 135. I remember being impressed by the Beethoven performance, but I can't recall anything of hearing the Haydn quartet.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on July 22, 2015, 09:14:14 AM

I think op.76 and 77 are almost like the "London" symphonies, so some of them get played quite frequently despite lacking a nickname.

(I am not a frequent concertgoer but I encountered op.20/2 for the first time live in a performance by a lay quartet a friend of mine played with. I had heard a handful or so of "late" Haydn quartets, like Fifths or Emperor but not any from op.20 I had put off as "early" (which is not really true, of course), so I was surprised what a great piece that was, even in a semi-professional performance.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 22, 2015, 09:20:44 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on July 22, 2015, 09:14:14 AM
I think op.76 and 77 are almost like the "London" symphonies, so some of them get played quite frequently despite lacking a nickname.

(I am not a frequent concertgoer but I encountered op.20/2 for the first time live in a performance by a lay quartet a friend of mine played with. I had heard a handful or so of "late" Haydn quartets, like Fifths or Emperor but not any from op.20 I had put off as "early" (which is not really true, of course) [...]

Yes; most peculiarly, "Papa" is probably the least understood Major Composer.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 22, 2015, 09:51:24 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 22, 2015, 09:20:44 AM
Yes; most peculiarly, "Papa" is probably the least understood Major Composer.

I believe (and don't pretend to convince anybody about it) that this is founded on two principal reasons:

1.- XXth Century respected orchestral and symphonic music as the greatest sign of true musical genius, and

2.- Haydn's orchestral and symphonic music is particularly refractory (much more than Mozart, for instance) to modern orchestral sound. Just after some heavy "adjustments", we are really listening to Haydn again, even played on modern instruments.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 22, 2015, 09:54:38 AM

Quote from: Gordo on July 22, 2015, 09:51:24 AM
I believe (and don't pretend to convince anybody about it) that this is founded on two principal reasons:

1.- XXth Century respected orchestral and symphonic music as the greatest sign of true musical genius, and

2.- Haydn's orchestral and symphonic music is particularly refractory (much more than Mozart, for instance) to modern orchestral sound. Just after some heavy "adjustments", we are really listening to Haydn again, even played on modern instruments.

Both those are certainly fair points.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 22, 2015, 10:00:26 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 22, 2015, 09:54:38 AM
Both those are certainly fair points.

Amen. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on July 22, 2015, 01:10:24 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 22, 2015, 07:18:13 AM
How will you remember all those names??

Oh, it will only be about a thousand.

Quote
Just FYI; the plague even extends to the Baryton Trios! :o #97, the so called 'Birthday Trio' appears on every single baryton trio disk I have, except in multiple sets where it only appears on one disk of the set. I personally own 10 versions of it. Want one? :D

One down, 125 to go! >:D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 22, 2015, 01:18:11 PM

I dub Symphony 91 "The Hesitant" based on the Largo opening and the way the subsequent Allegro kind of sneaks in as though not quite sure of itself ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on July 22, 2015, 03:18:50 PM

Quote from: Gordo on July 22, 2015, 09:51:24 AM
I believe (and don't pretend to convince anybody about it) that this is founded on two principal reasons:

1.- XXth Century respected orchestral and symphonic music as the greatest sign of true musical genius,

Aren't 104 instances of orchestral and symphonic music of the highest quality enough? ;D

Quote
2.- Haydn's orchestral and symphonic music is particularly refractory (much more than Mozart, for instance) to modern orchestral sound. Just after some heavy "adjustments", we are really listening to Haydn again, even played on modern instruments.

So basically Antal Dorati was a failure, right? ;D

IMNSHO Haydn's neglect and/or misunderstanding has got nothing to do with forces, and everything to do with (musical & political) philosophy --- Eszterhazy Miklos vs Stalin Joseph, or Joseph II vs F. D. Roosevelt... ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on July 22, 2015, 03:34:15 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 22, 2015, 07:18:13 AM
How will you remember all those names??

All of my pop albums have names. Seems to work okay.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 22, 2015, 03:37:53 PM

Quote from: Florestan on July 22, 2015, 03:18:50 PM
So basically Antal Dorati was a failure, right? ;D

So was Szell and Bernstein apparently :D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 22, 2015, 03:43:11 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 22, 2015, 03:37:53 PM
So was Szell and Bernstein apparently :D

Sarge

Believe it or not, when I did write that, I positively knew that the first name that will come to your mind will be Szell.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on July 22, 2015, 03:46:19 PM

Quote from: Gordo on July 22, 2015, 03:43:11 PM
Believe it or not, when I did write that, I positively knew that the first name that will come to your mind would be Szell.

I defy any HIPster of fame to (have) come up with horns more glorious than Szell. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 22, 2015, 03:53:06 PM

Quote from: Gordo on July 22, 2015, 03:43:11 PM
Believe it or not, when I did write that, I positively knew that the first name that will come to your mind will be Szell.

There could be no other ;) But seriously, he (and Cleveland) really did keep the fire burning. It's astonishing how many times Haydn was programmed in the 50s, 60s and on into the 70s in Cleveland. For a time they really were the world's greatest Haydn/Mozart band.

(I missed a rare performance of the Stumbling Goat with Dorati in 1980. I was transferred to Germany just a few months before it took place :( )

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on July 22, 2015, 04:01:57 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 22, 2015, 03:53:06 PM
There could be no other ;)

Dorati!!!... 8) 8) 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 22, 2015, 04:05:08 PM

Quote from: Florestan on July 22, 2015, 04:01:57 PM
Dorati!!!... 8) 8) 8)

Well, okay...maybe ;)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on July 22, 2015, 04:11:43 PM

(http://www.outhere-music.com/cache/im/album_portrait/uploads/albums/542e57df4f1b2.jpeg?1.0.0.3?1.0.0.3)

Op. 50... Haydn rawks!!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on July 22, 2015, 04:13:39 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 22, 2015, 04:05:08 PM
Well, okay...maybe ;)

Thanks. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 22, 2015, 04:48:17 PM

Quote from: Florestan on July 22, 2015, 03:18:50 PM
Aren't 104 instances of orchestral and symphonic music of the highest quality enough? ;D

So basically Antal Dorati was a failure, right? ;D

IMNSHO Haydn's neglect and/or misunderstanding has got nothing to do with forces, and everything to do with (musical & political) philosophy --- Eszterhazy Miklos vs Stalin Joseph, or Joseph II vs F. D. Roosevelt... ;D ;D ;D

You know, dear Andrei, at least I hope so, you're one of my favorite persons on this board; but sometimes I have a hard time deciding if you're being serious or just mocking. So many "smiles" are often hard to handle! ;D :D ;D

Whatever, I see Dorati in a similar way as I see Walcha (20 years before) if I think of Bach's organ music. What some people call "pre-authentic"; a conductor who started the adjustments I referred in my previous post.

IMO, if someone says that during the XXth Century, Haydn was generally regarded as a composer of the same importance than Mozart and Beethoven; this person would be being, as a matter of fact, highly inaccurate. The same for those who deny the influence of the HIP movement on the revaluation of Haydn's music (Hogwood and Pinnock were, to mention just two names, essential). Haydn's struggle to regain its rightful place on Parnassus has been tough (and started just in the 70s), and still is occurring, as our Gurn recalls us with his essays,. But it's just my opinion.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 22, 2015, 04:55:03 PM

Quote from: Florestan on July 22, 2015, 04:11:43 PM
(http://www.outhere-music.com/cache/im/album_portrait/uploads/albums/542e57df4f1b2.jpeg?1.0.0.3?1.0.0.3)

Op. 50... Haydn rawks!!!

Well, you've said something I can agree with. Not sure it's a wash though... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 22, 2015, 04:55:11 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 22, 2015, 03:53:06 PM
There could be no other ;) But seriously, he (and Cleveland) really did keep the fire burning. It's astonishing how many times Haydn was programmed in the 50s, 60s and on into the 70s in Cleveland. For a time they really were the world's greatest Haydn/Mozart band.

(I missed a rare performance of the Stumbling Goat with Dorati in 1980. I was transferred to Germany just a few months before it took place :( )

Sarge

It's not a surprise: Szell was a magnificent rara avis. Actually, my favourite conductor among those (that I know) conducting between the 50s and 60s. Well, maybe only challenged by Bruno Walter. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 22, 2015, 05:08:57 PM

Quote from: Gordo on July 22, 2015, 04:55:11 PM
It's not a surprise: Szell was a magnificent rara avis. Actually, my favourite conductor among those (that I know) conducting between the 50s and 60s. Well, maybe only challenged by Bruno Walter. :)

I generally like his efforts, especially with later music. If I'm wrong here, though, just spank me: was he not the conductor who refused to use Urtext scores when they were introduced in the early '60's? Seems it was his name I associate with that. The conductors before that time may have been paying homage to the idea of playing Haydn, but they were not playing Haydn, they were playing some 19th and 20th century music editor's ideas about what Haydn would have written if he had his shit together.

"Surely he didn't intentionally create a dissonance there, must be a misprint. This consonance is more what his idiom should be"

"Yes of course, Papa wouldn't use a dissonance, he was stuck in the mud. And while we're at it, move those rests and place them off the beat so it doesn't syncopate, Papa must be smooth!"

Well intentioned maybe. Full of dog poopie too.

Szell may be an exception but only because there was a rule. :)

Quote from: Florestan on July 22, 2015, 03:46:19 PM
I defy any HIPster of fame to (have) come up with horns more glorious than Szell. ;D

Any band which Anthony Halstead or Ab Koster sat in on. I actually have a significant list of horns who are not only the equal of any modern hornist you can name, but also sound better because their tone doesn't run through whatever sort of smoothing mechanism is attached to modern horns. Of course, Superhorn would be an exception... ::)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 22, 2015, 05:42:11 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 22, 2015, 05:08:57 PM
I generally like his efforts, especially with later music. If I'm wrong here, though, just spank me: was he not the conductor who refused to use Urtext scores when they were introduced in the early '60's? Seems it was his name I associate with that. The conductors before that time may have been paying homage to the idea of playing Haydn, but they were not playing Haydn, they were playing some 19th and 20th century music editor's ideas about what Haydn would have written if he had his shit together.

"Surely he didn't intentionally create a dissonance there, must be a misprint. This consonance is more what his idiom should be"

"Yes of course, Papa wouldn't use a dissonance, he was stuck in the mud. And while we're at it, move those rests and place them off the beat so it doesn't syncopate, Papa must be smooth!"

Well intentioned maybe. Full of dog poopie too.

Szell may be an exception but only because there was a rule. :)

Yes, the real Haydn revival just started in the 70s, prepared by previous investigations of people like your beloved H. C. Robbins Landon. All in all, basically an achievement of the HIP movement.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 22, 2015, 05:49:12 PM

Quote from: Gordo on July 22, 2015, 05:42:11 PM
Yes, the real Haydn revival just started in the 70s, prepared by previous investigations of people like your beloved H. C. Robbins Landon. All in all, basically an achievement of the HIP movement.

Well, I really don't like to say things like that because of the impression it makes, arrogant so to say, but I will say this: no other major composer benefited more from the HIP/PI movement than did Haydn. And, less surprisingly, Mozart too. He got away from being a rococo bon-bon and became a real composer when his music began to be played on the instruments it was written for, and in the performance style he envisioned.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 22, 2015, 05:52:21 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 22, 2015, 05:49:12 PM
Well, I really don't like to say things like that because of the impression it makes, arrogant so to say...

Arrogant? Moi?

:D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 22, 2015, 05:53:55 PM

Quote from: Gordo on July 22, 2015, 05:52:21 PM
Arrogant? Moi?

:D

No, WE. WE are a small core, but with thick shells... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on July 22, 2015, 05:56:43 PM

Quote from: orfeo on July 22, 2015, 03:34:15 PM
All of my pop albums have names. Seems to work okay.

:laugh:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 22, 2015, 06:09:18 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 22, 2015, 05:53:55 PM
No, WE. WE are a small core, but with thick shells... :D

8)

I know. ;)

It was approximately what I tried to say (betrayed by my macaronic English), when I wrote:

Quote from: Gordo on July 22, 2015, 09:51:24 AM
Haydn's orchestral and symphonic music is particularly refractory (much more than Mozart, for instance) to modern orchestral sound. Just after some heavy "adjustments", we are really listening to Haydn again, even played on modern instruments.

Actually, I can testify I have even listened to some authentic symphonic Haydn played on modern instruments, conducted by people like Helmut Müller-Brühl. I swear. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 22, 2015, 07:21:39 PM

Today, I was revisiting some old posts and I found names of excellent members of the past, now longly vanished into the cyberspace. I hope one day some of them will come back; people like Lethevich (Lethe), Bunny, Gabriel and FideLeo (aka flauto traverso), to name just some of them. :( :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on July 22, 2015, 09:05:51 PM

Someone commented that most Haydn symphonies are never on concert programs. Every now and then we should pause and be grateful for recorded music. A few pages ago, someone said that No. 57 is a much better work than No. 55. After a few clicks in my music server program, I listened to the Fischer performance of 57. I can listen to whatever Haydn Symphony I choose whenever I want. If I had to depend on concerts to experience Haydn's symphonies, I might hear a few often, some once and some never in my lifetime.

Szell was mentioned earlier. I am so grateful that I can listen to his performances decades after his death.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on July 23, 2015, 12:08:18 AM

I think we tend to be a little unfair towards the Haydn reception in earlier days. He might not have been regarded the equal of Mozart but his name was well known in the early 20th century and we should also note that of Mozart's symphonies only a handful were frequently played. But Mozart had 4-5 operas that were staples of the repertoire which will never be the case with Haydn's operas.

The higher estimation of Haydn precedes HIP by some time and there had been important musicians who held Haydn in very high regard even before (e.g. Tovey). But there were no good/critical editions of many of his works before the 50s and then, 20 or more years before HIP Haydn several projects started with recording all the symphonies.
Some of them (Goberman, Blum, Jones) never completed their task but the activity in the 60s and early 70s is rather amazing, even compared to today where another prominent Haydn project, Fey's, will very probably be canceled before completion. It could also be noted that none of the HIP Haydn symphony projects of the 80s and 90s was ever completed (Solomons, Hogwood, Weil). So HIP did not help (commercially) all that much.

Sure, not all of these early 60s/70s efforts were so sensitive with respect to the difference between Haydn (esp. earlier) and later symphonic music. But the effort, and often also love and respect for the music was there.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on July 23, 2015, 12:29:40 AM

Quote from: Gordo on July 22, 2015, 04:48:17 PM
You know, dear Andrei, at least I hope so, you're one of my favorite persons on this board

A heartily reciprocated appreciation, my friend.

Quote
but sometimes I have a hard time deciding if you're being serious or just mocking.

Don´t worry, sometimes it´s hard even for me. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on July 23, 2015, 12:58:40 AM

Quote from: Gordo on July 22, 2015, 05:52:21 PM
Arrogant? Moi?

:D

I think it's more like "Pretentious? Moi? " (quoted from miss Piggy in a Muppets episode).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 23, 2015, 02:17:26 AM

Quote from: orfeo on July 22, 2015, 03:34:15 PM
All of my pop albums have names. Seems to work okay.

The first three Peter Gabriel albums do not, and Geffen ultimately compelled him to add a title to his fourth ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 23, 2015, 02:22:03 AM

Quote from: Florestan on July 22, 2015, 03:18:50 PM
Aren't 104 instances of orchestral and symphonic music of the highest quality enough? ;D

In practically no cultural regard was the XXth c. monochrome 8)

Certainly, the names Prokofiev, Sibelius, & Hindemith spring to mind as musicians of stature who had the highest respect for "Papa's" art.

Edit :: I keep forgetting that Tapatalk does that weird thing with the ampersand

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 23, 2015, 03:40:41 AM

Quote from: The new erato on July 23, 2015, 12:58:40 AM
I think it's more like "Pretentious? Moi? " (quoted from miss Piggy in a Muppets episode).

It's the reference, no doubt! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 23, 2015, 04:19:22 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on July 23, 2015, 12:08:18 AM
I think we tend to be a little unfair towards the Haydn reception in earlier days. He might not have been regarded the equal of Mozart but his name was well known in the early 20th century and we should also note that of Mozart's symphonies only a handful were frequently played. But Mozart had 4-5 operas that were staples of the repertoire which will never be the case with Haydn's operas.

The higher estimation of Haydn precedes HIP by some time and there had been important musicians who held Haydn in very high regard even before (e.g. Tovey). But there were no good/critical editions of many of his works before the 50s and then, 20 or more years before HIP Haydn several projects started with recording all the symphonies.
Some of them (Goberman, Blum, Jones) never completed their task but the activity in the 60s and early 70s is rather amazing, even compared to today where another prominent Haydn project, Fey's, will very probably be canceled before completion. It could also be noted that none of the HIP Haydn symphony projects of the 80s and 90s was ever completed (Solomons, Hogwood, Weil). So HIP did not help (commercially) all that much.

Sure, not all of these early 60s/70s efforts were so sensitive with respect to the difference between Haydn (esp. earlier) and later symphonic music. But the effort, and often also love and respect for the music was there.

Well, I DID say "well-intentioned", and I also said "they paid homage to the idea of playing Haydn"... those things were my way of saying exactly the same thing you said. :) However, while I can't quote things accurately from here, the gist of what was thought was very much what we would consider patronizing of Haydn, just as it was of Mozart earlier on. One of the compilations of essays, I think it is The Cambridge Companion to Haydn has an essay called Haydn and the Long 19th Century which you would find eye-opening if you think Haydn was always respected although neglected somewhat. It just ain't so. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 23, 2015, 04:21:27 AM

Quote from: The new erato on July 23, 2015, 12:58:40 AM
I think it's more like "Pretentious? Moi? " (quoted from miss Piggy in a Muppets episode).

Welcome back; we will have to hear all about it! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 23, 2015, 04:38:32 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 23, 2015, 04:19:22 AM
Well, I DID say "well-intentioned", and I also said "they paid homage to the idea of playing Haydn"... those things were my way of saying exactly the same thing you said. :) However, while I can't quote things accurately from here, the gist of what was thought was very much what we would consider patronizing of Haydn, just as it was of Mozart earlier on. One of the compilations of essays, I think it is The Cambridge Companion to Haydn has an essay called Haydn and the Long 19th Century which you would find eye-opening if you think Haydn was always respected although neglected somewhat. It just ain't so. :-\

8)

As an aside: In matter of reception, I find the Haydn case very similar to another of my favourite composers: Antonio Vivaldi, who, anyway, for better o for worse, was "helped" for that gigantic "radio hit" called The Four Seasons.

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 23, 2015, 04:54:41 AM

Quote from: Gordo on July 23, 2015, 04:38:32 AM
As an aside: In matter of reception, I find the Haydn case very similar to another of my favourite composers: Antonio Vivaldi, who, anyway, for better o for worse, was "helped" for that gigantic "radio hit" called The Four Seasons.

:)

Yes, that famous 2-edged sword, The Four Seasons, one of the finest productions of Baroque entertainment. In both cases, I think you would find they were not appreciated until the iceberg which was their oeuvre finally came to the surface. When 90% remains hidden, appreciation can be hard to find too. :)

PS: In Spanish, Balakirev is at his lyrical best. Very nice! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 23, 2015, 04:58:44 AM

Quote from: Gordo on July 22, 2015, 04:48:17 PM
IMO, if someone says that during the XXth Century, Haydn was generally regarded as a composer of the same importance than Mozart and Beethoven; this person would be being, as a matter of fact, highly inaccurate.

If someone says in the 21st Century that Haydn is generally regarded as a composer of the same importance as Mozart and Beethoven, that person would be inaccurate. Haydn is still not generally considered as important as Mozart and Beethoven. How many members of this board revere Haydn like we Haydnistas? The number is small actually. And the number who want HIP Haydn symphonies even smaller generally if commercial success is any indication: not a single HIP cycle completed, or likely to be completed (I have little faith in the long term viability of the Haydn 2032 project) vs four MI cycles.

While not denying the importance the HIP movement has had on Classical era music (it's been enormous obviously), I also will not deny the importance that Dorati's Symphonies and Operas had, or that McCabe's Sonatas had, or that the Beaux Arts' Trios had on the discovery of Haydn's worth beyond the named and the obvious. There was glorious Haydn being made before the HIPsters: Szell, Bernstein, Klemperer, Davis, Dorati, Jones, Goberman. Only musical bigots (yeah, you Gurn ;D ) refuse to listen to it. By the way, Szell always stripped down the Cleveland when he played Haydn and Mozart: the size comparable to what those composers had in Paris and London. And if he didn't have natural horns at his command, Myron Bloom certainly made up for that 8)

But despite all that (the efforts of both the PI and MI crowds), Haydn is still relegated to the second team in the minds of most classical music lovers. Sad, and maddening.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 23, 2015, 05:11:29 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 23, 2015, 04:58:44 AM
If someone says in the 21st Century that Haydn is generally regarded as a composer of the same importance as Mozart and Beethoven, that person would be inaccurate. Haydn is still not generally considered as important as Mozart and Beethoven. How many members of this board revere Haydn like we Haydnistas? The number is small actually. And the number who want HIP Haydn symphonies even smaller generally if commercial success is any indication: not a single HIP cycle completed, or likely to be completed (I have little faith in the long term viability of the Haydn 2032 project) vs four MI cycles.

While not denying the importance the HIP movement has had on Classical era music (it's been enormous obviously), I also will not deny the importance that Dorati's Symphonies and Operas had, or that McCabe's Sonatas had, or that the Beaux Arts' Trios had on the discovery of Haydn's worth beyond the named and the obvious. There was glorious Haydn being made before the HIPsters: Szell, Bernstein, Klemperer, Davis, Dorati, Jones, Goberman. Only musical bigots (yeah, you Gurn ;D ) refuse to listen to it. By the way, Szell always stripped down the Cleveland when he played Haydn and Mozart: the size comparable to what those composers had in Paris and London. And if he didn't have natural horns at his command, Myron Bloom certainly made up for that 8)

But despite all that (the efforts of both the PI and MI crowds), Haydn is still relegated to the second team in the minds of most classical music lovers. Sad, and maddening.

Sarge

All true. Although I wouldn't say 'bigot' as much as I would say 'aural snob'. :D And probably always will be true. People don't want to have to reject the received notions they got early in life, and they continue to pass them down to newbies (as I have seen here many times). It's hard to win minds and hearts. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 23, 2015, 05:14:39 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 23, 2015, 05:11:29 AM
It's hard to win minds and hearts. 0:)

8)

This composer agrees!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on July 23, 2015, 05:29:21 AM

My main point was that the "Haydn revival" began in the late 50s or so, quite a long time before HIP got to Haydn (HIP performances of Bach etc. had already started, albeit on the fringes and did not become a major thing until the 1970s). And as several HIP Haydn projects floundered, it seems safe to say that HIP and appreciation of Haydn should be considered separately. There is still no complete HIP recording of Haydn's symphonies compared to about 4 of Mozart's (ter Linden, Harnoncourt, Hogwood, Pinnock). Sure, Haydn's are MANY more, but more than half of Mozart's are juvenilia and they are recorded anyway.

My other point was that there is quite a bit of "appreciation space" between "regarded as highly as Mozart" and "mostly neglected". There is also a difference between "highly regarded by some experts" and "highly regarded by the general public". If you read Tovey's comments on a bunch of symphonies you find that this guy regarded Haydn very highly already in the early 20th century.
It's of course true that only a small fraction of Haydn's works was regularly performed but this was also true of e.g. Handel and Bach and still all three would have been regarded as "great composers" despite being represented in a distorted fashion. Whereas Vivaldi was virtually unknown before the 1940s or so.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 23, 2015, 06:09:36 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on July 23, 2015, 05:29:21 AM
My main point was that the "Haydn revival" began in the late 50s or so, quite a long time before HIP got to Haydn (HIP performances of Bach etc. had already started, albeit on the fringes and did not become a major thing until the 1970s). And as several HIP Haydn projects floundered, it seems safe to say that HIP and appreciation of Haydn should be considered separately. There is still no complete HIP recording of Haydn's symphonies compared to about 4 of Mozart's (ter Linden, Harnoncourt, Hogwood, Pinnock). Sure, Haydn's are MANY more, but more than half of Mozart's are juvenilia and they are recorded anyway.

My other point was that there is quite a bit of "appreciation space" between "regarded as highly as Mozart" and "mostly neglected". There is also a difference between "highly regarded by some experts" and "highly regarded by the general public". If you read Tovey's comments on a bunch of symphonies you find that this guy regarded Haydn very highly already in the early 20th century.
It's of course true that only a small fraction of Haydn's works was regularly performed but this was also true of e.g. Handel and Bach and still all three would have been regarded as "great composers" despite being represented in a distorted fashion. Whereas Vivaldi was virtually unknown before the 1940s or so.

But Tovey's appreciation was absolutely unique in its time. When he wrote about Haydn in Essay in Music Analysis, he represented no one except himself, not some hard-core group of Haydn appreciators!

There have actually been 3 or 4 'Haydn revivals' in the 20th century, so it is wrong to base any conclusions off from any one of them. Tovey began the first, then (IIRC) Jens Peter Larsen began a second one before WWII when he uncovered so many previously unknown Haydn works. He is the person who inspired Robbins-Landon to begin yet another when he founded the Haydn Society in the early 50's and began recording works which were previously unheard of, and publishing not only huge gobs of biographical material but also Urtext scores. This lasted until well into the 70's, at which time the HIP movement adopted Haydn as their Classic Era poster child. This wave has yet to recede and so it is the one we are most familiar with.

It isn't the performers who began the first three waves, it was the musicologists. The fourth wave, the current one, pretty much WAS begun by performers, but they were also using musicology to construct their performances. Dorati, BTW was part of the 3rd wave, he worked hand-in-hand with Landon, and he did use Urtext scores. FWIW, I think his efforts with the operas are better than those with the symphonies, but that's just me. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on July 23, 2015, 06:47:23 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 23, 2015, 02:17:26 AM

The first three Peter Gabriel albums do not, and Geffen ultimately compelled him to add a title to his fourth ;)

I knew it. I knew someone would bring up Peter. It's actually his first 4 albums.

Seal has a bit of trouble as well, as his 1st, 2nd and 4th albums are all just "Seal".

But hey, they've all got different pictures on the covers!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on July 23, 2015, 06:51:57 AM

And then there are Led Zeppelin's first four albums.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 23, 2015, 06:54:26 AM

Quote from: North Star on July 23, 2015, 06:51:57 AM
And then there are Led Zeppelin's first four albums.

Not to mention the "White Album."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on July 23, 2015, 07:20:20 AM

No intense photosessions, but here at least is my son (he looks far better than me) and wife in front of the Eszterhazy castle in Eisenstadt.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa264/oddryd/P1000794.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 23, 2015, 07:21:52 AM

Quote from: orfeo on July 23, 2015, 06:47:23 AM

But hey, they've all got different pictures on the covers!

So do all my Beethoven Op 125's... ::)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 23, 2015, 07:23:17 AM

Quote from: The new erato on July 23, 2015, 07:20:20 AM
No intense photosessions, but here at least is my son (he looks far better than me) and wife in front of the Eszterhazy castle in Eisenstadt.

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa264/oddryd/P1000794.jpg)

Was it as nice inside as we've been led to believe? Nice stuff? A Haydn harpsichord maybe? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on July 23, 2015, 07:25:41 AM

Oh yes, The Haydnsaal was beautiful, and there was a nice Haydn exhibition with letters and instruments and variosus tableaux. Much of the period furniture of the period seems to be lost though (the same with the Haydnhaus).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on July 23, 2015, 07:32:56 AM

I also accidentally stumbled across this in Bratislava, quite close to the countess (?) Erdødyi house (of Beethoven fame).

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa264/oddryd/IMG_0408_1.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 23, 2015, 08:04:02 AM

Quote from: The new erato on July 23, 2015, 07:25:41 AM
Oh yes, The Haydnsaal was beautiful, and there was a nice Haydn exhibition with letters and instruments and variosus tableaux. Much of the period furniture of the period seems to be lost though (the same with the Haydnhaus).

Ah, yes, I understand WW II was really hard on that part of the world... :( The rest sounds very nice though! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 23, 2015, 08:10:34 AM

Quote from: The new erato on July 23, 2015, 07:32:56 AM
I also accidentally stumbled across this in Bratislava, quite close to the countess (?) Erdødyi house (of Beethoven fame).

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa264/oddryd/IMG_0408_1.jpg)

Yes, and Pressburg was also the birthplace of Joseph Joachim, Brahms' friend and virtuoso fiddler. It was a big deal place back in the day.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 23, 2015, 02:39:24 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 23, 2015, 04:54:41 AM
PS: In Spanish, Balakirev is at his lyrical best. Very nice! :)

Actually, I thought the same when I read your translation into English of my signature. ;) :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on July 23, 2015, 03:52:26 PM

I've been closely scrutinizing the Haydn 2032 project booklets and website. It appears to me that they record a symphony album first, and then perform the works on tour 8-11 months later. In addition, the first two recording sessions took place 8 months apart (October 2013 and June 2014) and the third album tour is this upcoming November. So I think it's fair to assume that Vol. 3 "Solo e Pensoso" was recorded in March of this year for a November/December release, and Vol. 4 will be recorded around Christmas.

Solo e Pensoso is confirmed as the title of Vol. 3 (http://www.haydn2032.com/EN/calendar.html). No word on which symphonies will be included, but I imagine our Nickname Experts will be able to make some educated guesses.

You can sign up for a newsletter (http://www.haydn2032.com/EN/newsletter.html).

Looks like the recording project will also involve the Basel Chamber Orchestra, and is backed by a nonprofit organization. But y'all might have seen that in the booklet notes already.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 23, 2015, 04:36:25 PM

Quote from: Brian on July 23, 2015, 03:52:26 PM
I've been closely scrutinizing the Haydn 2032 project booklets and website. It appears to me that they record a symphony album first, and then perform the works on tour 8-11 months later. In addition, the first two recording sessions took place 8 months apart (October 2013 and June 2014) and the third album tour is this upcoming November. So I think it's fair to assume that Vol. 3 "Solo e Pensoso" was recorded in March of this year for a November/December release, and Vol. 4 will be recorded around Christmas.

Solo e Pensoso is confirmed as the title of Vol. 3 (http://www.haydn2032.com/EN/calendar.html). No word on which symphonies will be included, but I imagine our Nickname Experts will be able to make some educated guesses.

You can sign up for a newsletter (http://www.haydn2032.com/EN/newsletter.html).

Looks like the recording project will also involve the Basel Chamber Orchestra, and is backed by a nonprofit organization. But y'all might have seen that in the booklet notes already.

Solo e Pensoso (Alone and Pensive) (Hob 24b:20) is a concert aria Haydn wrote in 1798. It is challenging to think what symphonies might be associated with those thoughts.

Thanks for the news and the link too!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on July 24, 2015, 01:42:08 AM

Thanks, Gurn, for the elaboration of the several "waves". Admitttedly I was not aware that Larsen had been some time before Robbins Landon. We certainly agree that the musicological efforts should be distinguished from the recordings that took place in their wake and further from the differences in public appreciation.
As I cannot easily get the Cambridge Companion (I have one academic library nearby but what they do not have is usually too much of a hassle to get for a hobby interest, i.e. it takes time and costs a little fee). I would have to check my random older books on music for mentionings of Haydn.
Again, it's academics, not the general public, but somewhat later (30s/40s) Walter Riezler in his book on Beethoven seems to both know his Haydn as well as appreciate him. Although he probably cannot escape valuing Beethoven higher, he does mention a few pieces/passages as interesting for the understanding of Beethoven and compares the finale of the b minor piano sonata favorably with the similar finale from Beethoven's op.10/1.

So I would suppose that maybe in Germany and Austria Haydn was better known and more highly regarded at least in come circles as Tovey's complaining (and he does complain about many aspects of musical life in the UK) might suggest. It seems well documented how immersed in classical music the bourgeois culture of Germany and Central Europe before the first World War (and to a large extent still in the inter-war-period) used to be. And I am pretty sure that included quite a bit of Haydn, e.g. played by amateur string quartets as Hausmusik.

But I do not disagree with you that Haydn's status did not equal Mozart's, even less Beethoven's or the obsession many educated people had with Wagner in the early 1900s. As Sarge has pointed out, this is still not the case in general in 2015 although I think that most musicologists/historians and many musicians nowadays show a very high appreciation of Haydn (e.g. Rosen's "The Classical Style" is almost dominated by Haydn, and that book is more than 40 years old by now).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 24, 2015, 04:43:52 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on July 24, 2015, 01:42:08 AM
Thanks, Gurn, for the elaboration of the several "waves". Admitttedly I was not aware that Larsen had been some time before Robbins Landon. We certainly agree that the musicological efforts should be distinguished from the recordings that took place in their wake and further from the differences in public appreciation.
As I cannot easily get the Cambridge Companion (I have one academic library nearby but what they do not have is usually too much of a hassle to get for a hobby interest, i.e. it takes time and costs a little fee). I would have to check my random older books on music for mentionings of Haydn.
Again, it's academics, not the general public, but somewhat later (30s/40s) Walter Riezler in his book on Beethoven seems to both know his Haydn as well as appreciate him. Although he probably cannot escape valuing Beethoven higher, he does mention a few pieces/passages as interesting for the understanding of Beethoven and compares the finale of the b minor piano sonata favorably with the similar finale from Beethoven's op.10/1.

So I would suppose that maybe in Germany and Austria Haydn was better known and more highly regarded at least in come circles as Tovey's complaining (and he does complain about many aspects of musical life in the UK) might suggest. It seems well documented how immersed in classical music the bourgeois culture of Germany and Central Europe before the first World War (and to a large extent still in the inter-war-period) used to be. And I am pretty sure that included quite a bit of Haydn, e.g. played by amateur string quartets as Hausmusik.

But I do not disagree with you that Haydn's status did not equal Mozart's, even less Beethoven's or the obsession many educated people had with Wagner in the early 1900s. As Sarge has pointed out, this is still not the case in general in 2015 although I think that most musicologists/historians and many musicians nowadays show a very high appreciation of Haydn (e.g. Rosen's "The Classical Style" is almost dominated by Haydn, and that book is more than 40 years old by now).

Thanks for your comments, Jo. I have yet to crack into what was going on in Central Europe during all this time, since the books are invariably written in German, of which I have only the most cursory understanding. I think it is important to keep Austria and Germany as two separate entities in all this though, because, as I read just last night, Austria never waned in its appreciation of Haydn, while Germany had other musical fish to fry. In the new book I just received, the first ever book on Haydn's masses in English, I might add, and from 2008, the authors both spent much of their adult lives in Austria, one of them worked for the Haydn Festival in Eisenstadt, and was also a church music director. In his forward he recounts the unbroken line of Haydn's church music in Austria from the time of its composition to the present day, for example, along with other examples of the continuing veneration of Haydn in Austria. While it is true that post-war Germany had a big Haydn revival, I think for many years before then he was ignored, which was certainly true at the end of his life.

In short, Tovey's comments WERE directed mainly to England, as you say. He was a professor at Oxford or Cambridge, after all, so they were a natural target for him! Even though the future has long overtaken him, his essential views on music are still unimpeachable after all this time, and his books are superb reading, highly recommended.

As for Riezler, I don't know him (German language?) but he just proves that knowledgeable people will always discover the best things, even if they aren't the trend du jour. I note, though, that despite appreciating Haydn, he wrote abut Beethoven... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on July 24, 2015, 05:55:43 AM

Walter Riezler was a friend of Furtwänglers's (I think he had been one of his personal tutors in his youth). The book on Beethoven is his most famous, he also wrote one about Schubert; his other books are mostly on art and Greek pottery. Interestingly, he had started as as classical archaeologist and art historian and later studied music with Felix Mottl and Max Reger. (Apparently, Furtwängler's father who was a professor of archaeology (and Riezler's PhD advisor) used his assistants as tutors in cultural history for his son...).
His brother, Kurt Riezler, had some minor role as a diplomat around WW I. Both Riezler brothers are among the many cases of highly educated upper middle class Germans who started with a rather national conservative background but nevertheless collided with the Nazis in the 1930s. Walter lost his position as a director of a museum, Kurt emigrated in 1938 (because his wife was Jewish, and the daughter of the painter Max Liebermann) and was a professor in New York for some time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Riezler
(Walter has no English entry)
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Riezler

This is completely OT but still quite fascinating, I think. It gives an impression of the amazing erudition and intellectual breadth of those guys who could apparently switch between diplomatic corps and ancient Greek tracts on economy or between curating an art museum and writing books on Beethoven without missing a turn...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 24, 2015, 06:13:13 AM

The popularity, in Cleveland, of the First Viennese School based on the number of times those composers were programmed by the Cleveland Orchestra between 1921 and 2013:

Schubert 187
Haydn 207
Mozart 763
Beethoven 815

Schubert makes sense, I suppose. Only his last two symphonies (and maybe the Fifth) are heard with any regularity anywhere. Plus he composed no concertos and few other orchestral works. But Haydn, while hardly ignored, is represented by pitifully few performances relative to Mozart and Ludwig van.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 24, 2015, 06:26:39 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on July 24, 2015, 05:55:43 AM
Walter Riezler was a friend of Furtwänglers's (I think he had been one of his personal tutors in his youth). The book on Beethoven is his most famous, he also wrote one about Schubert; his other books are mostly on art and Greek pottery. Interestingly, he had started as as classical archaeologist and art historian and later studied music with Felix Mottl and Max Reger. (Apparently, Furtwängler's father who was a professor of archaeology (and Riezler's PhD advisor) used his assistants as tutors in cultural history for his son...).
His brother, Kurt Riezler, had some minor role as a diplomat around WW I. Both Riezler brothers are among the many cases of highly educated upper middle class Germans who started with a rather national conservative background but nevertheless collided with the Nazis in the 1930s. Walter lost his position as a director of a museum, Kurt emigrated in 1938 (because his wife was Jewish, and the daughter of the painter Max Liebermann) and was a professor in New York for some time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Riezler
(Walter has no English entry)
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Riezler

This is completely OT but still quite fascinating, I think. It gives an impression of the amazing erudition and intellectual breadth of those guys who could apparently switch between diplomatic corps and ancient Greek tracts on economy or between curating an art museum and writing books on Beethoven without missing a turn...

Sounds like an interesting man-of-many-parts. It is amazing how some people can hit on so many things and do them all well. :)

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 24, 2015, 06:13:13 AM
The popularity, in Cleveland, of the First Viennese School based on the number of times those composers were programmed by the Cleveland Orchestra between 1921 and 2013:

Schubert 187
Haydn 207
Mozart 763
Beethoven 815

Schubert makes sense, I suppose. Only his last two symphonies (and maybe the Fifth) are heard with any regularity anywhere. Plus he composed no concertos and few other orchestral works. But Haydn, while hardly ignored, is represented by pitifully few performances relative to Mozart and Ludwig van.

Sarge

Interesting stats, Sarge. I guess the only surprise is that Schubert is lower on the list than Haydn. The rationale that he wrote less doesn't really hold up, considering the narrow breadth of Haydn's works which DO get performed.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 24, 2015, 06:30:34 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 24, 2015, 06:26:39 AM
Interesting stats, Sarge. I guess the only surprise is that Schubert is lower on the list than Haydn. The rationale that he wrote less doesn't really hold up, considering the narrow breadth of Haydn's works which DO get performed.

8)

But much less narrow in Szell's repertory, certainly.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 24, 2015, 06:55:11 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 24, 2015, 06:30:34 AM
But much less narrow in Szell's repertory, certainly.

Could've been broader (I certainly wish it had been). He conducted symphonies 7, 31, 86, 88, 92-99, 102 and 104 plus the D minor Mass, the Violin and Cello Concertos. There was more Haydn conducted by assistant and guest conductors during his tenure. What's important, I think, is that Haydn was programmed several times a year. Obviously he was an important part of the Cleveland's repertoire even though he played second fiddle to Mozart and Beethoven.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 25, 2015, 06:56:43 PM

I've been saying all along that Artaria wasn't irritated with Haydn over the Opus 50 affair, but hey, let's take a look at the next set of quartets and see just how turnabout works! :)

I'll put the Black Hand on you if there's a next time, Joe! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/07/1788-the-music-part-2-opus-54-55-carlos-revenge.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Camphy on July 26, 2015, 02:01:02 AM

A great read (again). Thanks!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 26, 2015, 06:31:19 AM

Quote from: Camphy on July 26, 2015, 02:01:02 AM
A great read (again). Thanks!

Thank you! :)

I just went back through and found a critical error which 10 re-reads didn't catch when I proofed, but a single 'live' read caught immediately. Worst part was that it affected the whole train of logic... *sigh*. Well so it goes!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Camphy on July 26, 2015, 06:56:16 AM

Hah! Glad you corrected that. It took me some time to notice the substitution, although I had wondered about that earlier today. I just imagined you meant quartets written by Haydn, and received by Artaria from someone other than Haydn. So your train of thought was clear enough, but the correction certainly makes it lucid now. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 26, 2015, 06:59:20 AM

Quote from: Camphy on July 26, 2015, 06:56:16 AM
Hah! Glad you corrected that. It took me some time to notice the substitution, although I had wondered about that earlier today. I just imagined you meant quartets written by Haydn, and received by Artaria from someone other than Haydn. So your train of thought was clear enough, but the correction certainly makes it lucid now. :)

I embarrassed myself, since my whole train of logic to that point was suddenly switched over to a side track! :-[ I did want it to be clear though, because 2 weeks of intensive research led to no single instance of anyone else making this connection, and I thought it was important. Still do. :) Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on July 26, 2015, 02:07:38 PM

Down to only a dozen un-heard Haydn Symphonies!

31, 53, 56, 57, 61-63, 68, 71, 74, 76, 102

But this is according to my logs, and my logs aren't 100% accurate. For example, I'm almost positive I've heard 31 and just forgot to document it. And how can it be possible that I've never heard 102?? That's crazy! Maybe I did as a teenager and forgot.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 26, 2015, 03:57:57 PM

Quote from: Brian on July 26, 2015, 02:07:38 PM
Down to only a dozen un-heard Haydn Symphonies!

31, 53, 56, 57, 61-63, 68, 71, 74, 76, 102

You're a better man than I am, Gunga Brian. It took me almost 50 years to hear them all.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 26, 2015, 04:01:48 PM

Quote from: Brian on July 26, 2015, 02:07:38 PM
Down to only a dozen un-heard Haydn Symphonies!

31, 53, 56, 57, 61-63, 68, 71, 74, 76, 102

But this is according to my logs, and my logs aren't 100% accurate. For example, I'm almost positive I've heard 31 and just forgot to document it. And how can it be possible that I've never heard 102?? That's crazy! Maybe I did as a teenager and forgot.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 26, 2015, 03:57:57 PM
You're a better man than I am, Gunga Brian. It took me almost 50 years to hear them all.

Sarge

It isn't hearing all the symphonies which is hard for me (hell, I've done it just this year!), it's making notes on all of them, or on anything else I've ever heard. I'm jealous of people who can do that, or like Harry, who can tell you everything about it up whether he liked it or not! :o :)

8)

PS - you are doing well, Brian!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on July 26, 2015, 05:03:09 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 26, 2015, 03:57:57 PM
You're a better man than I am, Gunga Brian. It took me almost 50 years to hear them all.

Sarge

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 26, 2015, 04:01:48 PM
It isn't hearing all the symphonies which is hard for me (hell, I've done it just this year!), it's making notes on all of them, or on anything else I've ever heard. I'm jealous of people who can do that, or like Harry, who can tell you everything about it up whether he liked it or not! :o :)

8)

PS - you are doing well, Brian!

Well, Sarge, you didn't have access to Naxos Music Library, and you didn't have that ultra cheap Dennis Russell Davies box you could acquire for about $0.30 per symphony. Like Gurn says, the difficulty is listening to each symphony 2-3 times, so that I'll actually remember which ones I especially loved. Seems like it's happened a dozen times where I thought "wow this obscure random symphony is really fantastic," but then a week later, couldn't remember the # anymore. :-X

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on July 27, 2015, 01:22:43 AM

102 must be one of he most famous "non-named" symphonies (unless one counts London as a name for all 12, not only 104 (where it is often attached but makes not much sense).
IIRC Tovey writes somewhere that he found 102, 104 and the string quartet op.77/2 Haydn's most convincing works and while I would hate to restrict myself to less than about 30 symphonies and quartets it is hard to disagree that these are all superlative pieces, even to ears "spoiled" by later, more romantic music. In any case, the first movement of 102 is one of Haydn's most "Beethovenian", and the slow movement one of the most "romantic" sounding.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 27, 2015, 02:53:27 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 26, 2015, 06:59:20 AM
I embarrassed myself, since my whole train of logic to that point was suddenly switched over to a side track! :-[ I did want it to be clear though, because 2 weeks of intensive research led to no single instance of anyone else making this connection, and I thought it was important. Still do. :) Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated!

8)

Bravo!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 27, 2015, 04:49:30 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 27, 2015, 02:53:27 AM
Bravo!

Thanks, Karl. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 30, 2015, 04:45:06 PM

Gurn & Greg, YHHM :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 02, 2015, 09:32:19 AM

This week I spent some time getting together with Wenzel Schantz and talking about fortepianos. Here are all the things he told me. :D

Nice to have music around the house (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/08/1788-the-music-part-3-.html)

Check it out if you'd like,
Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on August 04, 2015, 05:48:35 PM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51964GwyLIL.jpg)

Now enjoying the first 10 sonatas from the above set. Lovely playing and sound. And none of that weird noise found on the Derzhavina set. And about half the price.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 04, 2015, 07:01:50 PM

Quote from: George on August 04, 2015, 05:48:35 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51964GwyLIL.jpg)

Now enjoying the first 10 sonatas from the above set. Lovely playing and sound. And none of that weird noise found on the Derzhavina set. And about half the price.

All those noises are a shame. Unfortunately, I haven't found any spare time to go to my father's house (where I have stored some thousands of disks) in order to check out if my Derzhavina set is defective or not (a digital download purchased on 7digital.com before the physical copy, it's actually defective). That said, I find Derzhavina's interpretation superior to Buchbinder, who sounds a bit old-fashioned in comparison. I don't know if it's s a mania of mine, but I usually find Buchbinder's playing as too much legato, lacking in deepness and without enough separation among notes. It's hard to explain...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on August 04, 2015, 07:17:03 PM

Quote from: Gordo on August 04, 2015, 07:01:50 PM
All those noises are a shame. Unfortunately, I haven't found any spare time to go to my father's house (where I have stored some thousands of disks) in order to check out if my Derzhavina set is defective or not (a digital download purchased on 7digital.com before the physical copy, it's actually defective). That said, I find Derzhavina's interpretation superior to Buchbinder, who sounds a bit old-fashioned in comparison. I don't know if it's s a mania of mine, but I usually find Buchbinder's playing as too much legato, lacking in deepness and without enough separation among notes. It's hard to explain...

It's interesting you mention the word mania, for I find Derzhavina's playing at times bordering on manic. It's exciting and fun, yes, but I found myself wondering a few times when listening to her set 'is this Haydn?' I am not entirely sure. I have only heard 1/10 of Buchbinder's set, but to me he seems more traditional, but still fresh and delightful. I am glad to have both sets, though I do wish Derzhavina's label would get back to me and I could get my hands on a non-defective set.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 04, 2015, 07:40:56 PM

Quote from: George on August 04, 2015, 07:17:03 PM
It's interesting you mention the word mania, for I find Derzhavina's playing at times bordering on manic. It's exciting and fun, yes, but I found myself wondering a few times when listening to her set 'is this Haydn?' I am not entirely sure. I have only heard 1/10 of Buchbinder's set, but to me he seems more traditional, but still fresh and delightful. I am glad to have both sets, though I do wish Derzhavina's label would get back to me and I could get my hands on a non-defective set.

If you wanted a really eccentric Haydn, Marc-André Hamelin would be the man. Sometimes, he deletes any recognisable trace of Haydn. For sure, this is not a good thing in my book. :)

I have not explored the disks of Bavouzet on Chandos, but he is apparently doing some very good things there.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on August 04, 2015, 07:53:06 PM

Quote from: Gordo on August 04, 2015, 07:40:56 PM
If you wanted a really eccentric Haydn, Marc-André Hamelin would be the man. Sometimes, he deletes any recognisable trace of Haydn. For sure, this is not a good thing in my book. :)

Not in mine either.

And I didn't mean to say Derzhavina's weird or anything, just more energetic and expressive than most. I know she put a lot of time into recording her cycle (15 years to Buchbinder's 2), so I have a lot of respect for her.

QuoteI have not explored the disks of Bavouzet on Chandos, but he is apparently doing some very good things there.

I sampled McCabe. He's like Buchbinder on a lot of Valium.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 04, 2015, 10:07:13 PM

Quote from: George on August 04, 2015, 07:53:06 PM
Not in mine either.

And I didn't mean to say Derzhavina's weird or anything, just more energetic and expressive than most. I know she put a lot of time into recording her cycle (15 years to Buchbinder's 2), so I have a lot of respect for her.

We're totally in agreement.

Quote from: George on August 04, 2015, 07:53:06 PM
I sampled McCabe. He's like Buchbinder on a lot of Valium.

McCabe was the first pianist I listened to playing all the piano sonatas; therefore, I'm biased in his favor. I think he's very good: not on the fast side (you're right), but finally rewarding.

Having said that, maybe if I were listening to McCabe for the first time today, my opinion would be similar to yours. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on August 04, 2015, 11:12:28 PM

I do not remember Derzhavina as all that "manic", lively yes, but not exaggerated. What I found remarkable (and rather romantic) that she plays some of the "tempo di minuetto" movements very slowly and often "melancholic". This works well if the menuetto more or less replaces a slow movement but takes some getting used to if the menuetto is the final movement.

(I have not checked for noises again but I am pretty sure that they are "deeper" than disc manufacturing. What I thought I could discern is more probably some artefact of editing the tracks, unfortunately.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on August 05, 2015, 03:40:14 AM

Quote from: sanantonio on August 05, 2015, 03:01:04 AM
Of all the recordings of Haydn on modern piano I like Jean-Efllam Bavouzet (http://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Piano-Sonatas-Vol-1/dp/B003627OMG)'s ongoing cycle more than any of the others mentioned. Although, I hate the cover art.

Have not heard his Haydn. Hopefully there will be a budget box at some point after he finishes.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 05, 2015, 05:35:22 AM

About Bavouzet:

Quote from: sanantonio on August 05, 2015, 03:01:04 AM
Although, I hate the cover art.

It's a kind of joke about the similarity between the silhouettes of Haydn and Bavouzet; but, I agree with you, after five volumes is a bit tiring. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 05, 2015, 09:21:16 AM

Quote from: George on July 05, 2015, 11:09:40 AM
My set arrived and I started listening today. Uh-oh!

I can't figure out what it is, but there is a noise is, like a "pop" or "click" sound, but it's on my set and two others that I tried from completely different sources. It can be easily heard intermittently throughout the set, but clearly heard on such movements as track 11, CD 01 and track 02, CD 02.

Can folks who have this set please check and see if you hear the noise and can tell me what it is? It's on Spotify as well.

Hi George - I've been re-listening to the Derzhavina performances and have not noticed any unusual 'pops or clicks' (probably my 4th time through the box set) - also, I put on my headphones and listened specifically to the two tracks you mentioned in the quoted post - quiet as expected. Did you request a replacement? Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on August 05, 2015, 09:24:06 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on August 05, 2015, 09:21:16 AM
Hi George - I've been re-listening to the Derzhavina performances and have not noticed any unusual 'pops or clicks' (probably my 4th time through the box set) - also, I put on my headphones and listened specifically to the two tracks you mentioned in the quoted post - quiet as expected. Did you request a replacement? Dave :)

I did. And so far, crickets. ::)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 08, 2015, 07:54:53 AM

Way back when, before any of this blogging stuff came along, I grew frustrated with trying to discover anything useful about Haydn's music, like even when it was written! So one of the things I have been trying to do, along with bring us all a bit of chronologic biography, is to make it easy to discover when something was written. So this week, I have posted the Music of the 1770's (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/08/music-by-decade-part-3.html).

Hope you find it interesting, and also that you will point out any oversights or typos or mistakes or anything about it you wish to discuss. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 08, 2015, 08:11:51 AM

That 70s Show! Good show, Gurn!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 08, 2015, 08:40:54 AM

Hey all Haydnistos - 8)

I just left the post below in the 'considering thread' but likely will receive more attention here - comments appreciated; plus, all of the MP sellers seem to be located in Japan - I've never ordered from there, so are some better than others and what is a reasonable shipping time across the 'western pond'? Thanks. Dave :)

QuoteHaydn - London Symphonies w/ Kuijken & La Petite Bande - I've been looking at this Japanese offering for years hoping that it would be re-released elsewhere at a decent price - now the package is available from Japan for $35 on Amazon MP + $4 S/H - my questions are: 1) Are these 'real' CDs vs. CD-R; and 2) Are the liner notes (if available) in Japanese only? Thanks for any comments - Dave :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51v%2B0QatwaL.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 08, 2015, 09:44:02 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on August 08, 2015, 08:40:54 AM
Hey all Haydnistos - 8)

I just left the post below in the 'considering thread' but likely will receive more attention here - comments appreciated; plus, all of the MP sellers seem to be located in Japan - I've never ordered from there, so are some better than others and what is a reasonable shipping time across the 'western pond'? Thanks. Dave :)

I have ordered twice from Japan via AMP, and both times were brilliant. I can't answer your questions about the liner notes because I have those as the 5 single disks. Clearly they have been remastered and squeezed onto 4 disks. Some of my Japanese disks are bilingual others are not, so I have to leave it to someone else to answer that. Even if they aren't, the set is worth having. I will scan my notes and send them to you. ;-)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 08, 2015, 09:45:27 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on August 08, 2015, 08:11:51 AM
That 70s Show! Good show, Gurn!

Thanks, Karl. I am sure they will be useful to a few people anyway. Given how long it took me to get them done, you gotta know the answers aren't readily available! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 08, 2015, 11:24:29 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 08, 2015, 09:44:02 AM
I have ordered twice from Japan via AMP, and both times were brilliant. I can't answer your questions about the liner notes because I have those as the 5 single disks. Clearly they have been remastered and squeezed onto 4 disks. Some of my Japanese disks are bilingual others are not, so I have to leave it to someone else to answer that. Even if they aren't, the set is worth having. I will scan my notes and send them to you. ;-)

8)

Dave:

My copy is a set of original CDs, not CD-R; but I purchased it several years ago (actually twice because I made a mistake).

Liner notes are only in Japanese.

I have never ordered directly from Amazon.co.jp or its MP; but from cdjapan.co.jp and hmv.co.jp. Both of them were excellent, although quite expensive in terms of shipping and handling, so your price seems excellent, IMO.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 08, 2015, 01:54:47 PM

Quote from: Gordo on August 08, 2015, 11:24:29 AM
My copy is a set of original CDs, not CD-R; but I purchased it several years ago (actually twice because I made a mistake).

Liner notes are only in Japanese.

I have never ordered directly from Amazon.co.jp or its MP; but from cdjapan.co.jp and hmv.co.jp. Both of them were excellent, although quite expensive in terms of shipping and handling, so your price seems excellent, IMO.

Thanks Gurn & Gordo - regular CDs is what I expected (from memory I believe that DHM -> BMG -> Sony BMG); I have at least 3 sets of these works, so notes are not that important (when I started buying CDs in the mid-80s, a lot of the jazz I wanted came only w/ Japanese notes - still have a bunch!). I checked one of Gordo's links and the image below showed up - assume same package - for $32 (shipping to me ranged from $6 to $18) - I'll add some more items and see what the shipping costs may be? Dave :)

(http://st.cdjapan.co.jp/pictures/l/15/03/BVCD-38136.jpg?v=1)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 08, 2015, 02:54:42 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on August 08, 2015, 01:54:47 PM
Thanks Gurn & Gordo - regular CDs is what I expected (from memory I believe that DHM -> BMG -> Sony BMG); I have at least 3 sets of these works, so notes are not that important (when I started buying CDs in the mid-80s, a lot of the jazz I wanted came only w/ Japanese notes - still have a bunch!). I checked one of Gordo's links and the image below showed up - assume same package - for $32 (shipping to me ranged from $6 to $18) - I'll add some more items and see what the shipping costs may be? Dave :)

(http://st.cdjapan.co.jp/pictures/l/15/03/BVCD-38136.jpg?v=1)

It's a good plan. HMV usually offers discounts if you purchase several items. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on August 11, 2015, 12:19:41 PM

Quote from: George on August 04, 2015, 07:17:03 PM
It's interesting you mention the word mania, for I find Derzhavina's playing at times bordering on manic. It's exciting and fun, yes, but I found myself wondering a few times when listening to her set 'is this Haydn?' I am not entirely sure. I have only heard 1/10 of Buchbinder's set, but to me he seems more traditional, but still fresh and delightful. I am glad to have both sets, though I do wish Derzhavina's label would get back to me and I could get my hands on a non-defective set.

I can see why she plays like that, because it's quite attractive to see him as playful and forceful, speed is a good way to help get that effect. I don't think she pulls it off as well as Ranki, she's not bad though - if I have one reservation (and this may be a bit unfair, I don't know) she sometimes sounds a bit studied to me, like too nuanced. But as I said, that may not be fair. Ranki has been my favourite Haydnist for a long time, you may remember. Having said that I haven't listened to Buchbinder in the early sonatas at all.

Just listening this evening to Buchbinder play some very late sonatas, I was struck by Haydn's stop-go style. I don't know enough about classical style to know how distinctive it is, and how "rhetorical" it is. I shall have to get Beghin's book next time I decide to give classical style some serious time.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on August 11, 2015, 02:23:11 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on August 11, 2015, 12:19:41 PM
Just listening this evening to Buchbinder play some very late sonatas, I was struck by Haydn's stop-go style.

I have been noticing that stop-go style as I have listened to his set. I am not sure I like it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 12, 2015, 04:24:07 AM

:laugh:

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 12, 2015, 04:27:32 AM

I should think it would feel sort of . .. do-over-ish to me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on August 12, 2015, 04:45:59 AM

Quote from: George on August 11, 2015, 02:23:11 PM
I have been noticing that stop-go style as I have listened to his set. I am not sure I like it.

I think you will enjoy Fou Ts'Ong's Haydn then.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on August 12, 2015, 09:30:24 AM

Quote from: George on August 11, 2015, 02:23:11 PM
I have been noticing that stop-go style as I have listened to his set. I am not sure I like it.

So it is Buchbinder's stop-go style and not Haydn's, which makes sense because I never noticed anything of the sort... ::)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on August 12, 2015, 11:42:27 AM

Quote from: Que on August 12, 2015, 09:30:24 AM
So it is Buchbinder's stop-go style and not Haydn's, which makes sense because I never noticed anything of the sort... ::)

Q

You may want to try the andante expressivo of sonata 58, or he adagio e cantabile of sonata 59, or the adagio of sonata 60. That's what I was thinking of when I brought it up as something which seems very Haydnesque; but the only other classical composers I know are Mozart and Beethoven and Schubert.

Strangely enough you sometimes hear it in Froberger and Frescobaldi, especially when Vartolo plays it. Like propositions being put forward in an argument.

Can you imagine Vartolo's Haydn? 😉

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on August 12, 2015, 12:53:25 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on August 12, 2015, 11:42:27 AM
Can you imagine Vartolo's Haydn? 😉

The very thought is too painful.... ??? ;)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 12, 2015, 02:11:05 PM

Quote from: Que on August 12, 2015, 12:53:25 PM
The very thought is too painful.... ??? ;)

Q

Coincidentally, few minutes ago I was writing something about this in the "listening thread".

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on August 12, 2015, 07:19:10 PM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61aiu7ciUZL._SY300_FMwebp_.jpg)
Halfway through, nothing displeases and much pleases.
Mostly MI, but strings use gut strings and Baroque bows, and conducting is HIP a la Norrington

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 16, 2015, 08:20:23 AM

There's a new lady in Haydn's life, the old dog! And some new publishers too, as well as some old friends. Check out what I discovered about 1789 this week!

Even as Eszterháza fades... (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/08/1789-the-year-.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on August 17, 2015, 07:39:33 AM

Giving the baryton trios a try for the first time!

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/SACD-1001.jpg)

The booklet notes include the amusing suggestion that you can recognize a Haydn minuet because Haydn minuets all begin with a line that you could sing along to with the words "Are you the O'Reilly who runs this hotel?"

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 17, 2015, 08:06:24 AM

Perfidy!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2015, 08:28:44 AM

Quote from: Brian on August 17, 2015, 07:39:33 AM
Giving the baryton trios a try for the first time!

(http://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/SACD-1001.jpg)

The booklet notes include the amusing suggestion that you can recognize a Haydn minuet because Haydn minuets all begin with a line that you could sing along to with the words "Are you the O'Reilly who runs this hotel?"

:D OK. Boy, if there is anyone who you shouldn't generalize about like that... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on August 17, 2015, 01:17:47 PM

New "extra" love for the E flat Symphony No. 84. What fantastic middle movements! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 17, 2015, 01:54:04 PM

Quote from: ChamberNut on August 17, 2015, 01:17:47 PM
New "extra" love for the E flat Symphony No. 84. What fantastic middle movements! :)

Huzzah!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2015, 02:32:57 PM

Quote from: ChamberNut on August 17, 2015, 01:17:47 PM
New "extra" love for the E flat Symphony No. 84. What fantastic middle movements! :)

No surprise that the 'Paris' Symphonies put Haydn over the top in terms of fame and esteem. It's like a new level of cool. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 17, 2015, 02:39:18 PM

Quote from: Brian on August 17, 2015, 07:39:33 AM
The booklet notes include the amusing suggestion that you can recognize a Haydn minuet because Haydn minuets all begin with a line that you could sing along to with the words "Are you the O'Reilly who runs this hotel?"

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2015, 08:28:44 AM
:D OK. Boy, if there is anyone who you shouldn't generalize about like that... :)

After reading Brian's post, the first Minuet that literally sprang to mind was the Surprise's and, surprise! the O'Reilly lyrics work :D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 17, 2015, 02:42:30 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 17, 2015, 02:39:18 PM
After reading Brian's post, the first Minuet that literally sprang to mind was the Surprise's and, surprise! the O'Reilly lyrics work :D

Sarge

:) We'll have to try it with Boccherini and see if it is a by-product of the form. I would readily admit one, but ALL is a sweeping sort of statement of the kind that always gets one in trouble. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on August 17, 2015, 10:40:49 PM

Quote from: ChamberNut on August 17, 2015, 01:17:47 PM
New "extra" love for the E flat Symphony No. 84. What fantastic middle movements! :)

This one (and 87) are the most neglected of the "Paris" set and unfairly so. 84 was one of the last of those to be composed (the earliest are 83 and 87) and it is probably because of its overall lyrical and non-spectacular character that it is frequently overlooked. The slow movement is IMO much better than the more famous Romance from 85.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 18, 2015, 11:39:49 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on August 17, 2015, 01:17:47 PM
New "extra" love for the E flat Symphony No. 84. What fantastic middle movements! :)

Ray,

Here is what I was thinking about #84 when I covered it a few weeks ago. Not just the middle movements are great either!

More from/for Paris (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/04/1786-the-music-part-1-.html)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 23, 2015, 10:39:10 AM

Symphony #92 may very well be his finest effort. In any case, it marks the end of an era, the world post-1789 was going to change in major ways. Here is his goodbye to the Old Regime.

Doctoral thesis? Why not? (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/08/1789-the-music-part-1-.html)

Check it out if you like,
Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vandermolen on August 24, 2015, 01:30:21 PM

My first ever contribution to this thread I think! Heard Symphony 90 in London last night. It has a really weird fake ending. Everyone applauds and then it starts up again. The conductor (Andris Nelsons) hammed it up by pretending to look for the 'missing music' underneath the score. A very enjoyable symphony even though I went to the concert for the Barber and Shostakovich works.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 24, 2015, 01:37:16 PM

Quote from: vandermolen on August 24, 2015, 01:30:21 PM
My first ever contribution to this thread I think!

I think so too (your first here). I was actually shocked when I saw your post, thinking, what the hell is Jeffrey doing here? ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 24, 2015, 02:51:04 PM

Quote from: vandermolen on August 24, 2015, 01:30:21 PM
My first ever contribution to this thread I think! Heard Symphony 90 in London last night. It has a really weird fake ending. Everyone applauds and then it starts up again. The conductor (Andris Nelsons) hammed it up by pretending to look for the 'missing music' underneath the score. A very enjoyable symphony even though I went to the concert for the Barber and Shostakovich works.

Welcome to The Haus, Jeffrey, kind of you to come. Symphony #90 is one of our favorites, we discussed it not long ago, in fact. Some conductors really lean on the false ending (Rattle is one) while others just take it as it comes. If you don't know the work, it will get you every time! :)

8)

Title: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 24, 2015, 05:15:51 PM

Now Jeffrey's here, it's a party! 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 24, 2015, 05:25:30 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on August 24, 2015, 05:15:51 PM
Now Jeffrey's here, it's a party! 8)

My thoughts exactly. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vandermolen on August 25, 2015, 12:12:30 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 24, 2015, 02:51:04 PM
Welcome to The Haus, Jeffrey, kind of you to come. Symphony #90 is one of our favorites, we discussed it not long ago, in fact. Some conductors really lean on the false ending (Rattle is one) while others just take it as it comes. If you don't know the work, it will get you every time! :)

8)

Kind of you to welcome me here! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vandermolen on August 25, 2015, 12:14:18 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on August 24, 2015, 05:15:51 PM
Now Jeffrey's here, it's a party! 8)

Made me laugh. I shall be burning all my Miaskovsky, Vaughan Williams, Shostakovich, Bax etcetc CDs and only listening to Haydn from now on. 8)

PS I see that some recordings offer alternative versions of Symphony 90, with and without applause. On my way to the concert my brother was saying how much he prefers Haydn to Mozart, whilst recognising the genius of both.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on August 25, 2015, 01:19:01 AM

Quote from: vandermolen on August 24, 2015, 01:30:21 PM
My first ever contribution to this thread I think! Heard Symphony 90 in London last night. It has a really weird fake ending. Everyone applauds and then it starts up again. The conductor (Andris Nelsons) hammed it up by pretending to look for the 'missing music' underneath the score. A very enjoyable symphony even though I went to the concert for the Barber and Shostakovich works.

Chamber Music Next?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vandermolen on August 25, 2015, 02:57:55 AM

Quote from: The new erato on August 25, 2015, 01:19:01 AM
Chamber Music Next?

:)

OT

Actually, I'll have you know, I do listen to some chamber music, like Shostakovich, Schnittke, Weinberg, Bloch piano quintets and a lot of Bloch's chamber music - all VW's chamber music output. I love Bax's Harp Quintet and much more. Although I mainly listen to orchestral, that is true - now, where is that Haydn boxed set?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 25, 2015, 04:12:24 AM

Quote from: vandermolen on August 25, 2015, 12:14:18 AM
Made me laugh. I shall be burning all my Miaskovsky, Vaughan Williams, Shostakovich, Bax etcetc CDs and only listening to Haydn from now on. 8)

PS I see that some recordings offer alternative versions of Symphony 90, with and without applause. On my way to the concert my brother was saying how much he prefers Haydn to Mozart, whilst recognising the genius of both.

Your brother sounds a wise man. My own experience with both composers is very deep, and I find Mozart easier to like, while Haydn is more rewarding long-term. Of course, they are my two favorite composers, so expressing a preference is difficult. OK, Haydn then. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on August 25, 2015, 04:15:46 AM

Welcome to the Haus, Jeffrey! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on August 25, 2015, 04:21:37 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 18, 2015, 11:39:49 AM
Ray,

Here is what I was thinking about #84 when I covered it a few weeks ago. Not just the middle movements are great either!

More from/for Paris (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/04/1786-the-music-part-1-.html)

8)

Excellent write up, Gurn! :) Perhaps we could nickname it 'The Orphan'? :P #84, I'll be revisiting this one several times to truly get familiar with it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 25, 2015, 04:24:23 AM

Cheers, Ray!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 25, 2015, 04:31:01 AM

Paging Monsieur Catellier . . . . (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21492.msg916562.html#msg916562)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 25, 2015, 04:33:02 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on August 25, 2015, 04:21:37 AM
Excellent write up, Gurn! :) Perhaps we could nickname it 'The Orphan'? :P #84, I'll be revisiting this one several times to truly get familiar with it.

Thanks, Ray. As for your last, I think the Paris (and London) works suffer from being a part of a set, and so they don't get the individual attention they deserve. All on their own, each of these is well worth a close listen, as it will be well repaid. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vandermolen on August 25, 2015, 08:59:02 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on August 24, 2015, 05:15:51 PM
Now Jeffrey's here, it's a party! 8)

As I'm feeling a bit of a gate-crasher at this party I thought I must actually actively look out some Haydn in my collection and, guess what? I found some. In a DGG boxed set of music conducted by Ferenc Fricsay. So, I am now listening to 'The Seasons' (live recording Berlin 1961) and I am greatly enjoying it - partly as it is very different to the music I usually listen to. It is not a bit like Glazunov's 'The Seasons' . 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on August 25, 2015, 09:03:24 AM

.
[asin]B0018RAMCA[/asin]

Now enjoying the final CD in this lovely set. Buchbinder plays with class and high energy when required. Highly recommended and at budget price!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 25, 2015, 09:03:50 AM

Quote from: vandermolen on August 25, 2015, 08:59:02 AM
As I'm feeling a bit of a gate-crasher at this party I thought I must actually actively look out some Haydn in my collection and, guess what? I found some. In a DGG boxed set of music conducted by Ferenc Fricsay. So, I am now listening to 'The Seasons' (live recording Berlin 1961) and I am greatly enjoying it - partly as it is very different to the music I usually listen to. It is not a bit like Glazunov's 'The Seasons' . 8)

No, it isn't 8)

Inspired by your recent concert, I listened to the 90^th . . . again (which is to say, it is one of that still considerable number of "Papa's" symphonies which I am pretty sure I have listened to before, but do not recall by number).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 25, 2015, 09:04:19 AM

Quote from: George on August 25, 2015, 09:03:24 AM
.
[asin]B0018RAMCA[/asin]

Now enjoying the final CD in this lovely set. Buchbinder plays with class and high energy when required. Highly recommended and at budget price!

Cheers, George!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vandermolen on August 25, 2015, 09:12:07 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on August 25, 2015, 09:03:50 AM
No, it isn't 8)

Inspired by your recent concert, I listened to the 90^th . . . again (which is to say, it is one of that still considerable number of "Papa's" symphonies which I am pretty sure I have listened to before, but do not recall by number).

Good to hear [asin]Karl[/asin]. Which symphonies would you and Gurn recommend to the Haydn novice?

My brother had a much loved Form Tutor when he was at school in the 1960s whom he kept in touch with until the teacher died. He was apparently besotted with Haydn's music.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 25, 2015, 09:20:28 AM

Quote from: vandermolen on August 25, 2015, 09:12:07 AM
Good to hear Karl. Which symphonies would you and Gurn recommend to the Haydn novice?

That's really a question on which I must to defer, not only to our Gurn, but to the Sarge and Greg, who I am sure have better granularity with the lot. As it is, I would just recommend the last 15 I've listened to—and they're worth it, but the answer would really just reflect the accident of my listening :)

Quote from: Jeffrey (vendermolen)My brother had a much loved Form Tutor when he was at school in the 1960s whom he kept in touch with until the teacher died. He was apparently besotted with Haydn's music.

Having found it so engaging a rabbit-hole myself, I do not doubt it!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on August 25, 2015, 09:39:08 AM

Quote from: vandermolen on August 25, 2015, 09:12:07 AM
Good to hear [asin]Karl[/asin]. Which symphonies would you and Gurn recommend to the Haydn novice?

All of them, Jeffrey! 8)

Dive in with the Dennis Russell Davies/Stuttgart Chamber Orchestra complete set, which was available at quite the bargain price. :D

Two of the most rewarding experiences in my classical music discovery has been going through the complete symphonies and string quartets of Haydn. The level of creativity, individuality and uniqueness spanning Haydn's symphonies and string quartets is astounding!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 25, 2015, 11:11:41 AM

Quote from: ChamberNut on August 25, 2015, 09:39:08 AM
All of them, Jeffrey! 8)

Dive in with the Dennis Russell Davies/Stuttgart Chamber Orchestra complete set, which was available at quite the bargain price. :D

Two of the most rewarding experiences in my classical music discovery has been going through the complete symphonies and string quartets of Haydn. The level of creativity, individuality and uniqueness spanning Haydn's symphonies and string quartets is astounding!

I wish I had said that! :)

The amazing thing with Haydn, given the size of his oeuvre, is that nothing sucks! No need to say "avoid this or that...". Start in the middle and work towards each end. >:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brahmsian on August 25, 2015, 11:28:29 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 25, 2015, 11:11:41 AM
I wish I had said that! :)

The amazing thing with Haydn, given the size of his oeuvre, is that nothing sucks! No need to say "avoid this or that...". Start in the middle and work towards each end. >:D

8)

You are correct. There are no duds. :-\

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 25, 2015, 11:44:47 AM

I want this!

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNR0LDrUEAAbbMA.jpg)

Sonic Dave, make me one, please!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on August 25, 2015, 11:54:32 AM

Some of the keys should double as light switches there.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 25, 2015, 12:04:41 PM

Quote from: vandermolen on August 25, 2015, 09:12:07 AMWhich symphonies would you and Gurn recommend to the Haydn novice?

My favorites. Those in bold I'd recommend to the novice.

1 D major
5 A major
15 D major
30 C major "Alleluja"
31 D major "Hornsignal"
34 D minor
35 B flat
36 E flat
39 G minor
41 C major
42 D major
44 E minor "Trauer"
48 C major "Maria Theresia"
51 B flat
52 C minor
57 D major
65 A major
67 F major
72 D major
73 D major "La Chasse"
78 C minor
80 D minor
83 G minor "Hen"
85 B flat "La Reine"
88 G major
90 C major
92 G major "Oxford
93 D major
95 C minor
99 E flat
100 G major "Military"
101 D major "Clock"
104 D major "London"

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on August 25, 2015, 12:13:00 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 25, 2015, 12:04:41 PM
My favorites. Those in bold I'd recommend to the novice.

The Bear isn't one of your favorites?!?!? *prepares bazooka*

The Bear was my entry into the Haydn symphonies, so perhaps I am biased. For several years, that was my favorite Haydn piece of any kind.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 25, 2015, 12:20:10 PM

Quote from: Brian on August 25, 2015, 12:13:00 PM
The Bear isn't one of your favorites?!?!? *prepares bazooka*

I'm trying to keep "favorites" under thirty per cent of Haydn's symphonic output (really hard to do). Since all the Paris symphonies are brilliant, one has to make painful choices. But yes, I love the Bear too...but the Hen just that little bit more 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 25, 2015, 12:58:56 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 25, 2015, 12:20:10 PM
I'm trying to keep "favorites" under thirty per cent of Haydn's symphonic output (really hard to do). Since all the Paris symphonies are brilliant, one has to make painful choices. But yes, I love the Bear too...but the Hen just that little bit more 8)

Sarge

Although how you can leave out #42 from the 'special' list... :D :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on August 25, 2015, 01:09:35 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 25, 2015, 11:11:41 AM
I wish I had said that! :)

The amazing thing with Haydn, given the size of his oeuvre, is that nothing sucks! No need to say "avoid this or that...". Start in the middle and work towards each end. >:D

8)

I agree! I just finished the Buchbinder piano 10CD set. CD 10 was assembled from early variations and incomplete sonatas - and I liked it at least as much as the rest of the sonatas!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vandermolen on August 25, 2015, 02:12:56 PM

Thanks for all the recommendations - much appreciated. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on August 28, 2015, 10:43:07 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 25, 2015, 12:04:41 PM
78 C minor "Stumbling Goat"
93 D major "Fart"
99 E flat "Cat"

FTFY.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on August 29, 2015, 12:30:18 AM

If you also have the "instrumental" Fricsay set, there are about 6 Haydn symphonies included (44, 48, 95, 98, 101 or so, I only have 44, 95 and 98). They are somewhat old-fashioned and mono and 98 suffers from an early/faulty edition (or in any case skips the keyboard solo in the finale) but otherwise quite good and will you give two famous middle and several late symphonies.

Otherwise, if one does not want to get a complete set, there are many recordings of the last 12 "London", the 6 "Paris" and the 20+ "Sturm and Drang" (30-50 numbers) available. With those, and the early "day time" 6-8 and 88-92 one would end up with about half the symphonies and miss only half a dozen or so of my favorites (like 31, 70, 75, 80) but get a fairly decent representation. Of course, this will probably more expensive than a cheapish complete set (like Fischer/Brilliant oder Russel Davies).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 29, 2015, 04:02:50 AM

Quote from: George on August 25, 2015, 01:09:35 PM
I agree! I just finished the Buchbinder piano 10CD set. CD 10 was assembled from early variations and incomplete sonatas - and I liked it at least as much as the rest of the sonatas!

Splendid!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 30, 2015, 08:23:57 AM

Leaving shortly for my annual pilgrimage to the place of my birth. No new essay this week (or next), mustn't rush these things. Please do check out any you might have missed though, the blog gets lonely when no one visits, Haydn feels he is back at Eisenstadt spending a week with the Missus... :D

Cheers,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 30, 2015, 08:49:20 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 23, 2015, 10:39:10 AM
Symphony #92 may very well be his finest effort. In any case, it marks the end of an era, the world post-1789 was going to change in major ways. Here is his goodbye to the Old Regime.

Doctoral thesis? Why not? (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/08/1789-the-music-part-1-.html)

Check it out if you like,
Thanks,
8)

For those who didn't see it last week, this look at the Oxford Symphony will have to cover me for a fortnight. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 11, 2015, 05:09:17 PM

Hello all, pleasure to be back. Let me just knock away the cobwebs...... *choke - gasp*. There better now!

Whilst off on vacay, stopped over in New York City to see fellow mod Brewski, and we went uptown to the J.P. Morgan Library, now a museum housing Morgan's freaking amazing collection. My aim was to see the autograph manuscript of Haydn's Symphony in Eb, #91, which has resided there for the last 100 years or so. I got a picture of it off their website and used it in a recent essay, so I wanted to repay their kindness:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/1788%20Symphony%2091%20title%20page.jpg)

As it turns out, they rotate their stock to give a resting period, so to say, and this one was currently dormant, much to my chagrin. We did, however, see Beethoven's incredibly messy autograph of Violin Sonata #10 (Op 96) from 1812. That was amazing! And then, we also saw this:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/K%20385%20autograph%20score.jpg)
Me, as close as I will ever get to Mozart...

which is Mozart's 'Haffner' Symphony, K 385 in D major of July 1782, a little story about which I included in this recent essay (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/06/1787-the-music-part-5-.html). In one of those odd coincidences which occasionally enter your life, I sent an email of this picture to my father, to which he replied "I was listening to that exact same symphony about a half hour before I got your email"! Or right about the same time as I was looking at the manuscript...

So anyway, that's what I did on my summer vacation. Wish I had longer. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on September 12, 2015, 03:19:21 AM

What a pity there's no like it button here.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on September 13, 2015, 07:46:22 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 11, 2015, 05:09:17 PM

Whilst off on vacay, stopped over in New York City to see fellow mod Brewski, and we went uptown to the J.P. Morgan Library, now a museum housing Morgan's freaking amazing collection. My aim was to see the autograph manuscript of Haydn's Symphony in Eb, #91...

Went on a Haydn-appreciation trip, myself, by bike... hitting Esterhaza and Esterhazy castles and got a few good bits of Haydn originals to see... letters mostly, but some scores, also.

Meanwhile, fresh from Forbes:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GS9pLMtbk04/VIB7VKbHqeI/AAAAAAAAHvs/QnxWx_SUGxc/s1600/Forbes_SOUND_ADVICE_laurson_2_600.jpg)

AUG 22, 2015
The Boston Symphony At Grafenegg Or: The Haydn
Ghetto

...If that be a rule, namely not to play Haydn first (and it really should be), this
performance did not bother to deviate from it. Predictably, the Haydn (or the
orchestra) sounded not remotely as good as it should have. The horns, for
one, were a long way from the standard the BSO (or any orchestra, amateur
and professional alike) sets itself, and in every single movement. And while
there was a spot of grace here and there to be found, it would have taken a lot
tighter playing and more energetic wit to get the juices flowing. I'm not saying
that the first movement was directly responsible for a woman passing out
before the Lincoln Town Car-style Andante (she recovered), but it cannot
have helped. Only with much benevolence could one try to blame it on the
orchestra's size: A little too big for Haydn and a little too small for the Wolken-
turm stage, but then there's no reason to fudge it: This was a dead-boring,
flaccid performance, like a formerly great white wine that lost all acidity...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/09/13/the-boston-symphony-at-grafenegg-or-the-haydn-ghetto_happpy40thbirthday_jfl_nelsons_/
(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2015/09/Schloss_Nachmittag-Foto_Alexander_Haiden_jens-f-laurson_800.jpg) (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/09/13/the-boston-symphony-at-grafenegg-or-the-haydn-ghetto_happpy40thbirthday_jfl_nelsons_/)
Grafenegg Castle
Picture courtesy Grafenegg Festival, © Andreas Hofer

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 13, 2015, 11:28:42 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on September 13, 2015, 07:46:22 AM
Went on a Haydn-appreciation trip, myself, by bike... hitting Esterhaza and Esterhazy castles and got a few good bits of Haydn originals to see... letters mostly, but some scores, also.

Meanwhile, fresh from Forbes:
[snip]

That sounds superb, what a nice itinerary! I was also hoping to see letters, of which Morgan has several (along with piano trios), but my hopes there were also dashed.

I see by Forbes that your hopes were somewhat dashed too, Haydn gets trounced again, and by the Bostons, no less! One thing though: it gave you a great chance to properly exercise your sarcasm machine, which was apparently in better form than the orchestra. :) - :( Nice essay anyway, even though it reminded me in so many ways of a concert I once attended in Atlanta which opened (predictably) with Haydn #98, and closed (predictably) with Franck's Le chasseur maudit, a programming circumstance so mirroring your own as to be somewhat eerie! Fortunately, mine was played well... :-\

Cheers,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 19, 2015, 11:03:27 AM

Whew, vacation is over! Getting back into the regular routine has been a challenge, but this week's topic, a sonata and fantasia for fortepiano, was well worth the research. See if you don't agree. :)

I had this fantasy (or was it just a caprice?) (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/09/1789-the-music-part-2-.html)

Check it out!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on September 21, 2015, 06:38:37 AM

From The Symphony, I.: Haydn to Dvořák edited by Robert Simpson; the concluding paragraph of Harold Truscott's article on Haydn:

Haydn was the first supreme master to make the symphony and sonata the foremost vehicle of his thought. He retained pre-eminence until Beethoven arrived, for Mozart, great as are some of his symphonies, rarely have this medium the same attention as Haydn. No later symphonists have improved upon Haydn's position ; no one can do more than equal him ; even Beethoven, in some ways, scarcely surpassed him. One thing alone would mark him out -- the variety and range of his thought in this mass of works. Each symphony is a world in itself, even the smallest and earliest. There is no repetition. In this sense, and it is a deep one, he is the 'Father of the Symphony'. He first perceived and expressed the heights and depths this kind of music could attain.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 21, 2015, 07:06:11 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on September 21, 2015, 06:38:37 AM
From The Symphony, I.: Haydn to Dvořák edited by Robert Simpson; the concluding paragraph of Harold Truscott's article on Haydn:

Haydn was the first supreme master to make the symphony and sonata the foremost vehicle of his thought. He retained pre-eminence until Beethoven arrived, for Mozart, great as are some of his symphonies, rarely have this medium the same attention as Haydn. No later symphonists have improved upon Haydn's position ; no one can do more than equal him ; even Beethoven, in some ways, scarcely surpassed him. One thing alone would mark him out -- the variety and range of his thought in this mass of works. Each symphony is a world in itself, even the smallest and earliest. There is no repetition. In this sense, and it is a deep one, he is the 'Father of the Symphony'. He first perceived and expressed the heights and depths this kind of music could attain.

Yes, I really like that book, and that is one of my favorite paragraphs; it sums up my own thoughts better than I could. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on September 21, 2015, 07:32:54 AM

Ffresh from Forbes:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GS9pLMtbk04/VIB7VKbHqeI/AAAAAAAAHvs/QnxWx_SUGxc/s1600/Forbes_SOUND_ADVICE_laurson_2_600.jpg)

SEP 21, 2015
No Rain On Bychkov And Vienna Philharmonic's Grafenegg Parade

...I'd say something about the Vienna Philharmonic having Haydn in their blood,
except I don't think they play Haydn that much more or better than any other large
philharmonic orchestra and certainly their Haydn discography is (perhaps surprising-
ly?) small and spotty. It's just that on this occasion they were fresher, the strings
more together, the execution tighter, and the tempos more appropriate than with
the BSO earlier. Granted, there was a little too much pleasantness here, also,
especially in the sticky-boots Minuet, but not to a debilitating degree...

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/09/21/no-rain-on-bychkov-and-vienna-philharmonics-grafenegg-parade/
(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2015/09/Wolkenturm_Andreas_Hofer_jens-f-laurson.jpg) (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2015/09/21/no-rain-on-bychkov-and-vienna-philharmonics-grafenegg-parade/)
Grafenegg's Wolkenturm
Picture courtesy Grafenegg, © Alexander Haiden

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 21, 2015, 08:33:56 AM

Nice review, Jens. Damn, I wish you could get to see Anima Eterna or Arion Baroque do #44. They kick ass and take names, which is far more what needs to be done. I love the Wieners, but I love Haydn more... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Camphy on September 21, 2015, 09:47:46 AM

(http://i.prs.to/t_200/691062050029.jpg)

You can listen online to this disk here (for a few weeks):

http://www.radio4.nl/plaatpaal/447/cd-van-de-week-robin-ticciati-dirgeert-haydn-symfonieen-

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 28, 2015, 06:40:44 PM

It was a challenge, but this week's essay in about one of Haydn's less known but more interesting behind-the-scenes efforts. And you will finally get to hear a real Flötenuhr!

Time is everything! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/09/1789-the-music-part-3-.html)

Hope you enjoy!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on September 28, 2015, 06:56:19 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 28, 2015, 06:40:44 PM
It was a challenge, but this week's essay in about one of Haydn's less known but more interesting behind-the-scenes efforts. And you will finally get to hear a real Flötenuhr!

Time is everything! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/09/1789-the-music-part-3-.html)

Hope you enjoy!
8)

Now I have to wait for 1792!

IIRC, that Mozart guy also wrote two or three pieces for a similar instrument.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on September 29, 2015, 12:20:18 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 28, 2015, 06:40:44 PM
It was a challenge, but this week's essay in about one of Haydn's less known but more interesting behind-the-scenes efforts. And you will finally get to hear a real Flötenuhr!

Time is everything! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/09/1789-the-music-part-3-.html)

Hope you enjoy!
8)

Absolutely charming topic, writing and music. One of the best installment in the series.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 29, 2015, 04:11:37 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 28, 2015, 06:56:19 PM
Now I have to wait for 1792!

IIRC, that Mozart guy also wrote two or three pieces for a similar instrument.

Yes he did (the Fantasia K 616 for one), and so did Luigi. The main differences are that Mozart came right out and said he hated the instrument, it reminded him of a toy piano. Whereas Haydn was fascinated with the mechanical aspects and the possibilities it offered, rather than the drawbacks. When you only have 3 octaves to play with, your creativity could be constrained. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 29, 2015, 04:13:14 AM

Quote from: Florestan on September 29, 2015, 12:20:18 AM
Absolutely charming topic, writing and music. One of the best installment in the series.

Thanks, Florestan. Many of these essays seem to write themselves (although that may be just the way I write??) but some of them, like this one, are really a tough nut. I'm delighted that it turned out OK. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on September 30, 2015, 04:56:34 AM

And while delving into Mozart´s wonderful juvenilia, why not some early Haydn? I mean, some keyboard trios and sonatas from around 1766-67, more or less the years of Mozart´s childhood violin sonatas.

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/180/MI0001180232.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0001/115/MI0001115988.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

So here we have a young man of 34 and a kid of 10, as of yet unkown to each other, composing music of the highest quality at the same time. A true miracle of God!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus - your back from vack
Post by: Scion7 on September 30, 2015, 02:54:07 PM

Thanks for posting the pic of you beside the holy Haffner text! Did it give off rays of light? :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus - your back from vack
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 30, 2015, 03:00:10 PM

Quote from: Scion7 on September 30, 2015, 02:54:07 PM
Thanks for posting the pic of you beside the holy Haffner text! Did it give off rays of light? :)

Oh yes: that room was actually totally dark, all of the light emanated solely from the manuscript (and my eyes, if you could have seen them!). That pic was taken by my fellow mod Brewski, by the way. He was as impressed as I was! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 04, 2015, 11:06:37 AM

1790 is one of the major, watershed years in the Haydn saga. It started off so perfectly though....

A vignette of happy days in Vienna (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/10/1790-the-year-part-1-.html)

Check it out!
Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 04, 2015, 06:17:09 PM

Do you know why Haydn adressed Frau von Gennzinger as "Your Grace"? English usage keeps that term for higher levels of nobility. Was Hapsburg usage looser.

And I'm spelling it Gennzinger because if it was good enough for Papa, it is good enough for me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 04, 2015, 07:10:49 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 04, 2015, 06:17:09 PM
Do you know why Haydn addressed Frau von Gennzinger as "Your Grace"? English usage keeps that term for higher levels of nobility. Was Hapsburg usage looser.

And I'm spelling it Gennzinger because if it was good enough for Papa, it is good enough for me.

She was a minor nobility, which is the reason for the 'von' in here name, which isn't gratuitous (as was Ludwig van Beethoven's). Haydn was distinctly a commoner and was also a stickler for correctness, which was very much expected in those days. He wouldn't have wanted to give any cause for offense. Her full name, which he gives on the envelope is:

Madame de Gennzinger
Noble de Kayser a Son Logis.

Spelling in those times was extraordinarily variable. Women's writing, from a spelling POV, was practically indecipherable. The fact is, in 1790, both ways were probably right, and maybe others besides. Vastly different from now! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 04, 2015, 10:42:51 PM

To this day, Austrians are rumored to be obsessed with degrees and titles* and in times when those indicated strong social distinctions one probably preferred to err in the direction of more polite and obedient.

* At least some high school teachers are still called "Professor", so every university professor has to be addressed "Universitätsprofessor" to show proper respect. Also instead of just the highest degree, they tend to list every degree someone might have passed, so Herr Hofrat Universitätsprofessor Doktor [PhD] MMag [M.A.] etc....

Beethoven's "van" from the Dutch did not indicate nobility but I think Beethoven himself was either not entirely clear about that or in any case he sometimes claimed otherwise to improve his social standing and I have seen "von Beethoven" (which would indicate at least minor nobility) in contemporary sources.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 05, 2015, 05:46:15 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on October 04, 2015, 10:42:51 PM
To this day, Austrians are rumored to be obsessed with degrees and titles* and in times when those indicated strong social distinctions one probably preferred to err in the direction of more polite and obedient.

* At least some high school teachers are still called "Professor", so every university professor has to be addressed "Universitätsprofessor" to show proper respect. Also instead of just the highest degree, they tend to list every degree someone might have passed, so Herr Hofrat Universitätsprofessor Doktor [PhD] MMag [M.A.] etc....

Beethoven's "van" from the Dutch did not indicate nobility but I think Beethoven himself was either not entirely clear about that or in any case he sometimes claimed otherwise to improve his social standing and I have seen "von Beethoven" (which would indicate at least minor nobility) in contemporary sources

Beethoven actually took advantage of this passion for order and proper titles to let people think that he was minor nobility. At some point in his early life in Vienna, this mattered to him far more than it did once he realized that he was noble all on his own, which was more important than material nobility.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 05, 2015, 06:06:38 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 05, 2015, 05:46:15 AM
Beethoven actually took advantage of this passion for order and proper titles to let people think that he was minor nobility. At some point in his early life in Vienna, this mattered to him far more than it did once he realized that he was noble all on his own, which was more important than material nobility.

8)

He wuz playin' us!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on October 05, 2015, 10:05:29 AM

I just want to make sure it is known to the Haus that, after the sale of the Hanssler label to more music-minded backers, there is a possibility that Thomas Fey will continue his symphony cycle.

Fey/Heidelberg is currently at 57 symphonies + Sinfonia concertante.

Quote from: jlaurson on October 05, 2015, 02:56:05 AM
There are talks to finish this cycle, after all!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 05, 2015, 10:39:34 AM

Quote from: Brian on October 05, 2015, 10:05:29 AM
I just want to make sure it is known to the Haus that, after the sale of the Hanssler label to more music-minded backers, there is a possibility that Thomas Fey will continue his symphony cycle.

Worth repeating Kenny's comment:

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/asheville/Woohoo.gif)

Woohoo!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 10, 2015, 02:26:32 PM

I thought, after breaking off a chunk of 1790 last time, that I would be able to wrap it right up for you this week. But no... what a year! What a great lot of happenings. Haydn will never be the same!

An era is over, but its fruit lives on (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/10/1790-the-year-part-2-.html)

Check it out!
Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on October 10, 2015, 11:02:28 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 10, 2015, 02:26:32 PM
I thought, after breaking off a chunk of 1790 last time, that I would be able to wrap it right up for you this week. But no... what a year! What a great lot of happenings. Haydn will never be the same!

An era is over, but its fruit lives on (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/10/1790-the-year-part-2-.html)

A very fine essay. I have enjoyed the entire series and this one is perhaps my favorite.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 11, 2015, 04:07:56 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 10, 2015, 02:26:32 PM
An era is over, but its fruit lives on (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/10/1790-the-year-part-2-.html)

"On October 1st, Haydn left Eszterháza so quickly he left behind many of his important papers and scores. It was like a prison-break![...]From October 1 to December 31, there is yet another whole year's worth of highly important activity to look at. Before we get to it, however..."

ARRRGHHH!!! Cruel, Gurn, cruel. You end on a cliffhanger! I want to know what happens next! Does he run to Maria Anna? ;)

Did his career at Eszterháza really end so suddenly? Wow, within three days of Nicholas' death, Haydn was gone.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 11, 2015, 05:49:05 AM

Quote from: Old Listener on October 10, 2015, 11:02:28 PM
A very fine essay. I have enjoyed the entire series and this one is perhaps my favorite.

Thank you very kindly, OL. Tell you the truth, these last 2 have been really enjoyable for me, too. No dearth of events, that's for sure. Not often I actually have to make hard choices about what to leave out!! :o

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 11, 2015, 05:52:44 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 11, 2015, 04:07:56 AM
"On October 1st, Haydn left Eszterháza so quickly he left behind many of his important papers and scores. It was like a prison-break![...]From October 1 to December 31, there is yet another whole year's worth of highly important activity to look at. Before we get to it, however..."

ARRRGHHH!!! Cruel, Gurn, cruel. You end on a cliffhanger! I want to know what happens next! Does he run to Maria Anna? ;)

Did his career at Eszterháza really end so suddenly? Wow, within three days of Nicholas' death, Haydn was gone.

Sarge

Hey, Sarge,
Yes, the stark suddenness of it all is stunning in its way. I would have to say that even if he was getting just what he wanted, and let's admit, he wouldn't have been a free man unless Nicholas died, the whole thing must have been crazy at the time.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 12, 2015, 03:41:13 AM

"I can't get out of this sparrow-fart town soon enough!"

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2015, 05:13:10 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 12, 2015, 03:41:13 AM
"I can't get out of this sparrow-fart town soon enough!"

8)

:)

I put a phrase in that essay especially for you, Karl. I was hoping you would tumble to it... ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 12, 2015, 05:29:56 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2015, 05:13:10 AM
:)

I put a phrase in that essay especially for you, Karl. I was hoping you would tumble to it... ;)

8)

Another reason I am keen to visit! Drinking from the firehose, here . . . .

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on October 13, 2015, 04:37:40 AM

The next volume of "Haydn 2032" with Il Giardino Armonico will be titled "Solo e pensoso" and feature Symphonies 4, 42, and 64. March 2016.
Volume 4, which should arrive sometime in fall 2016, will center on "Il distratto".

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 13, 2015, 05:51:14 AM

Quote from: Brian on October 13, 2015, 04:37:40 AM
The next volume of "Haydn 2032" with Il Giardino Armonico will be titled "Solo e pensoso" and feature Symphonies 4, 42, and 64. March 2016.
Volume 4, which should arrive sometime in fall 2016, will center on "Il distratto".

Yes, they announced #3 a little while ago, I am looking forward to it! Thanks for the interesting about Vol 4; Il distratto (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/06/1774-the-music-part-1-.html) is among my favorites! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 18, 2015, 07:28:12 AM

Quote"Haydn has really experienced a renaissance in the last few decades," he [Kam] notes. "Until the 1970s and '80s, when performance practice became an issue, the general feeling was there was really no difference between performing Haydn, Beethoven, Brahms or Shostakovich. When you went to hear a great artist perform their music, you got to hear the great artist, regardless of the repertoire."

Haydn, Kam states, really suffered from that approach. Haydn may have composed in the classical style, but his music is firmly rooted in the baroque era. Baroque composers left a lot of room for performers to interpret their music.

"If a computer plays a piece of Mozart, it still sounds like Mozart," he asserts. "But with Haydn, that's not the case. I think Haydn requires artists to give a lot more to bring life to his music than you'll hear in the beautiful [but ultimately] boring recordings from the '60s and earlier. They miss the liveliness that you experience in today's performances of Haydn, which give him his own voice."

From an interview with one of the members of the Jerusalem Quartet. Is this just rubbish?

https://www.sfcv.org/preview/musicmenlo/jerusalem-quartet-mining-bartok-for-melody

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2015, 07:41:02 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 18, 2015, 07:28:12 AM
From an interview with one of the members of the Jerusalem Quartet. Is this just rubbish?

https://www.sfcv.org/preview/musicmenlo/jerusalem-quartet-mining-bartok-for-melody

It may well be rubbish, but I believe it from the core of my being, and have espoused it for years. I know I have been accused of a variety of sins over my preferences for Haydn interpreters, but the biggest issue for me is "historical recordings", which are exactly as described in the interview you published. They may sound very nice, but the miss the essence of Haydn altogether. Where I disagree is where they say that Mozart flies above all that, so to speak. I think Mozart accrues many of the same benefits from original instrument and style performance. No matter the level of a man's genius, he can't imagine what instruments and styles of the future portend, and skew his writing in that direction!

That said, the reason I don't enter into any sort of negative posture when anyone here posts that they listened to this or that Haydn and loved it, is because it is more important to me that they listened to Haydn than who played it. One day they may move on to other interpretive ideas and then we'll talk... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 18, 2015, 09:00:56 AM

There are plenty of "lively" Haydn recordings from the mid 20th century (or earlier). I do not think that the most common problem was that Haydn was played "too heavy or boring" with too large orchestras (maybe in many performances but not in the best recordings which is the only thing I can access because I was not alive in the 50s). This was more of a problem with Bach and Handel and would not apply to string quartets anyway. If anything it was that the "light and cheerful" aspect of Haydn's music was stressed in favor of his more "serious" side. (Of course there are also some "over-serious" interpretations, maybe Scherchen's symphonies 44 and 49 or Klemperer in some late symphonies. But these can certainly not be accused of taking Haydn not seriously...)

In any case, in instrumental music the stylistic differences between Haydn (after 1760 or so) and Mozart are smaller than between Haydn and typical 1720s/30s baroque music. This seems fairly obvious to me. I don't know what the current lore on embellishments in Haydn + Mozart vs. baroque is but certainly there cannot be a division between Baroque + Haydn vs. Mozart in that respect.
And I do not remember any "baroque-ish" playing from the two Haydn disc the Jerusalem has recorded. I know that Mandryka finds them "too pretty" and while I don't quite agree with that, I think it would be impossible to claim that they are *less* "pretty" than e.g. the Pro Arte, Budapest or whatever Haydn quartet recordings I have heard from the 30s-50s...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 18, 2015, 09:03:27 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2015, 07:41:02 AM
It may well be rubbish, but I believe it from the core of my being, and have espoused it for years. I know I have been accused of a variety of sins over my preferences for Haydn interpreters, but the biggest issue for me is "historical recordings", which are exactly as described in the interview you published. They may sound very nice, but the miss the essence of Haydn altogether. Where I disagree is where they say that Mozart flies above all that, so to speak. I think Mozart accrues many of the same benefits from original instrument and style performance. No matter the level of a man's genius, he can't imagine what instruments and styles of the future portend, and skew his writing in that direction!

That said, the reason I don't enter into any sort of negative posture when anyone here posts that they listened to this or that Haydn and loved it, is because it is more important to me that they listened to Haydn than who played it. One day they may move on to other interpretive ideas and then we'll talk... :)

8)

Yes, it was the thing about the difference between Haydn and Mozart which struck me as the most interesting thing in the quote.

Anyway, as far as historical performance is concerned, even you have let slip once or twice how much you love old some old performances of Haydn (early Juilliard String Quartet, for example.) So surely, as with Bach, there are some performers who could make it into great music even though they weren't HIP.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2015, 09:41:16 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 18, 2015, 09:03:27 AM
Yes, it was the thing about the difference between Haydn and Mozart which struck me as the most interesting thing in the quote.

Anyway, as far as historical performance is concerned, even you have let slip once or twice how much you love old some old performances of Haydn (early Juilliard String Quartet, for example.) So surely, as with Bach, there are some performers who could make it into great music even though they weren't HIP.

True enough, one of my favorite disks is the VPO/Bernstein 88 & 92, although it was done in 1986, IIRC, and used the modern scores, which is a huge thing.

For me it isn't a case of whether the player can play it well, even though in many cases the things we consider 'beautiful' are things which are foreign to the original music, the entire ambiance brought on by playing from the original score, with all its warts, on instruments which emulate the tonal qualities of the original (with all its warts) is what makes the performance 'right' for me. I remember a discussion here following the release of the Beghin sonatas set where someone wrote that Brendel or Hamelin was more entertaining in this music. My reply now, as it was then, is that they use pianistic devices which hadn't been invented when the music was written, and had been devised during the 19th and 20th centuries for the express purpose of making the music more entertaining. So yes, to modern ears they are more entertaining. But that isn't what I want to hear, I want to hear it how it sounded to the original listeners. Maybe I can (actually, I have) learn to be entertained differently that way. My point is, I don't make a big deal about it unless someone else does first. The music is the most important thing.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2015, 01:19:57 PM

Seems strange to start a year of music without symphonies, but here is one. I find Haydn still fascinated with his new fortepiano, but it hasn't taken long before he is turning put a masterpiece or two. Here's what I found.

Call it what you will, it's love (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/10/1790-the-music-part-1-.html)

Hope you enjoy,
Thanks
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 18, 2015, 08:00:43 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 18, 2015, 07:28:12 AM
From an interview with one of the members of the Jerusalem Quartet. Is this just rubbish?

https://www.sfcv.org/preview/musicmenlo/jerusalem-quartet-mining-bartok-for-melody

That's how they play Haydn and Bartok. Or at least, how they played them when I saw them live three nights ago (Thursday). Program was Haydn 77/1, Bartok 5, and Dvorak "American".

Haydn and Bartok were played before intermission, which did make clear not merely how different they were, but how similar they were. SQ as conversation among friends is as true of Bartok as it is of Haydn.

And the Haydn was no museum piece. First violinists do not tap their toes and dance in their seats in company with the second violinist in museum pieces (viola and cello were not quite as exuberant).

They are releasing a recording of at least some of the Bartok quartets ( the program note was rather vague) in " early winter", and will be performing in London. Their website gives the dates. I think you will want to see them. (So would Gurn, but I don't know if they ever turn up in his neck of the woods.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on October 19, 2015, 10:05:00 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on October 18, 2015, 09:00:56 AM
In any case, in instrumental music the stylistic differences between Haydn (after 1760 or so) and Mozart are smaller than between Haydn and typical 1720s/30s baroque music. This seems fairly obvious to me. I don't know what the current lore on embellishments in Haydn + Mozart vs. baroque is but certainly there cannot be a division between Baroque + Haydn vs. Mozart in that respect.
And I do not remember any "baroque-ish" playing from the two Haydn disc the Jerusalem has recorded. I know that Mandryka finds them "too pretty" and while I don't quite agree with that, I think it would be impossible to claim that they are *less* "pretty" than e.g. the Pro Arte, Budapest or whatever Haydn quartet recordings I have heard from the 30s-50s...

I may be out of my league here (I haven't even heard the Jerusalem recordings) but I read that quote, particularly the part about a computer playing, as referring to things like accents and agogics more than ornaments. Regardless I don't see why we should assume that any stylistic or formal similarity between Mozart's and Haydn's compositions implies that they must necessarily be performed similarly.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on October 19, 2015, 10:08:32 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 18, 2015, 08:00:43 PM
And the Haydn was no museum piece. First violinists do not tap their toes and dance in their seats in company with the second violinist in museum pieces...

In this regard I guess I do want Mozart and Haydn performed similarly. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2015, 10:26:42 AM

Quote from: Pat B on October 19, 2015, 10:05:00 AM
I may be out of my league here (I haven't even heard the Jerusalem recordings) but I read that quote, particularly the part about a computer playing, as referring to things like accents and agogics more than ornaments. Regardless I don't see why we should assume that any stylistic or formal similarity between Mozart's and Haydn's compositions implies that they must necessarily be performed similarly.

True as far as it goes, but back in the day, they were performed by the same people, often back-to-back. One would naturally assume no great divergence in playing style. God only knows what the 19th century did to either or both of them, though. :)

There are records (written, not phonograph) of Haydn and Mozart actually playing each others works at quartet parties, once, along with Ditters and Vanhal, and other times with Leopold present and then with Maximilian Stadler (they played Mozart's quintets that time). So stylistically, I would expect, umm... similarity. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 19, 2015, 12:01:11 PM

I did not mean that Haydn and Mozart should be performed exactly the same. But as everybody knows they were contemporaries and friends so it seems preposterous to claim that Haydn "was still in the baroque style" and should therefore be played differently from Mozart.
Except for some church music both have very little to do with the baroque style.
So if the claim is that there are important continuities between the baroque and late 18th century style (none of which seem apparent in the way I heard the Jerusalem Q play Haydn on CD - I have not heard their Mozart) these should either hold for both Haydn and Mozart or for neither.
(BTW there are plenty of listeners (not me) who tend to find Mozart boring or "shallow", so one could claim in exactly the same way as Ori Kam does for Haydn that his music does not "play itself" anymore than most other music.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 19, 2015, 12:05:45 PM

I don't really know much about classical style, but I trust Tom Beghin and he uses rubato and agogics in Mozart as well as Haydn. As far as quartet playing goes, I don't know if there's anyone who I trust: are any of them scholars as well as fiddlers?

It does seem very odd to say that Haydn is "in the baroque" but Mozart isn't. I haven't really thought about this before.

One characteristic of baroque is complex contrapuntal music. I hadn't noticed this in Haydn much, he seems more about sensual accessible tunes like Mozart or any other galant composer.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2015, 12:06:51 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on October 19, 2015, 12:01:11 PM
I did not mean that Haydn and Mozart should be performed exactly the same. But as everybody knows they were contemporaries and friends so it seems preposterous to claim that Haydn "was still in the baroque style" and should therefore be played differently from Mozart.
Except for some church music both have very little to do with the baroque style.
So if the claim is that there are important continuities between the baroque and late 18th century style (none of which seem apparent in the way I heard the Jerusalem Q play Haydn on CD - I have not heard their Mozart) these should either hold for both Haydn and Mozart or for neither.
(BTW there are plenty of listeners (not me) who tend to find Mozart boring or "shallow", so one could claim in exactly the same way as Ori Kam does for Haydn that his music does not "play itself" anymore than most other music.)

I think there is a pretty big difference between early and late Haydn. I can't imagine that the Op 1, 2, 9 or 17 quartets would play just like the Op 50, 64 or 77's. Certainly early Haydn (which is what I had in mind when I agreed with the original post) is indeed a continuation of late Baroque styles, moreso in some genres than others. Like the early keyboard trios and sonatas, for example. If not Baroque, it is hard to call them more than pre-Classical, whatever the hell that means! :)

I've heard that boring and shallow claim too, usually from people who are, themselves, boring and shallow. Just sayin'. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on October 19, 2015, 12:16:38 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2015, 10:26:42 AM
True as far as it goes, but back in the day, they were performed by the same people, often back-to-back. One would naturally assume no great divergence in playing style. God only knows what the 19th century did to either or both of them, though. :)

There are records (written, not phonograph) of Haydn and Mozart actually playing each others works at quartet parties, once, along with Ditters and Vanhal, and other times with Leopold present and then with Maximilian Stadler (they played Mozart's quintets that time). So stylistically, I would expect, umm... similarity. :)

If the Jerusalem Quartet can determine that an interventionist style suits Haydn and a straighter style suits Mozart, why should we assume that Haydn and Mozart themselves were unable to make any such distinction? Very possibly what the 19th century did to them was homogenization.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on October 19, 2015, 12:20:40 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on October 19, 2015, 12:01:11 PM
I did not mean that Haydn and Mozart should be performed exactly the same. But as everybody knows they were contemporaries and friends so it seems preposterous to claim that Haydn "was still in the baroque style" and should therefore be played differently from Mozart.

1. He didn't claim that Haydn was "in" the baroque style. He claimed that Haydn was rooted in the baroque style, specifically with regards to interpretive freedom.

2. If "it seems preposterous to claim that Haydn should be played differently than Mozart" does not mean that they "should be performed exactly the same," then what does it mean?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 19, 2015, 12:24:07 PM

By the way I have heard the Jerusalem Quartet play Mozart and Haydn and I can't say I noticed a different approach to expression, articulation etc. But I may well have missed something.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on October 19, 2015, 12:29:15 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 19, 2015, 12:05:45 PM
I don't really know much about classical style, but I trust Tom Beghin and he uses rubato and agogics in Mozart as well as Haydn. As far as quartet playing goes, I don't know if there's anyone who I trust: are any of them scholars as well as fiddlers?

It does seem very odd to say that Haydn is "in the baroque" but Mozart isn't. I haven't really thought about this before.

One characteristic of baroque is complex contrapuntal music. I hadn't noticed this in Haydn much, he seems more about sensual accessible tunes like Mozart or any other galant composer.

I don't think anybody is claiming that Mozart must be played straight. In general I don't believe that there is One Right Way to perform anything. With that in mind, it is possible that Beghin's performances and Kam's statements are both valid.

I think you all are reading way too much into Kam's use of the word "baroque." It is entirely clear to me that he was talking about interpretive freedom and not complex counterpoint.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 19, 2015, 12:31:28 PM

Quote from: Pat B on October 19, 2015, 12:29:15 PM
I don't think anybody is claiming that Mozart must be played straight. In general I don't believe that there is One Right Way to perform anything. With that in mind, it is possible that Beghin's performances and Kam's statements are both valid.

I think you all are reading way too much into Kam's use of the word "baroque." It is entirely clear to me that he was talking about interpretive freedom and not complex counterpoint.

So what exactly is the idea, Kam's idea? Can you just say it?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on October 19, 2015, 12:34:46 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 19, 2015, 12:24:07 PM
By the way I have heard the Jerusalem Quartet play Mozart and Haydn and I can't say I noticed a different approach to expression, articulation etc. But I may well have missed something.

I just sampled a bit of it and I thought the Haydn sounded a tad more demonstrative. It wasn't a huge difference though. Actually I'm not very enamored of their Haydn style (from the bit I heard), but that doesn't make their musical decisions or the thought process behind them wrong.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on October 19, 2015, 12:42:27 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 19, 2015, 12:31:28 PM
So what exactly is the idea, Kam's idea? Can you just say it?

As I understood it, his idea is that Mozart sounds good played straight and that Haydn requires more interpretation.

Which you might disagree with. But he wasn't saying anything about counterpoint or period instruments.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 19, 2015, 12:49:16 PM

Quote from: Pat B on October 19, 2015, 12:42:27 PM
As I understood it, his idea is that Mozart sounds good played straight and that Haydn requires more interpretation.
.

OK, but we don't seem to hear it very clearly in the performances.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 19, 2015, 01:01:19 PM

In which way different? Which kinds of freedom and how related to the "baroque roots"? I do not see the latter any stronger in Haydns mature works than in Mozart. And even less do I see how this could or should impact the way of interpretation of Haydn vs. Mozart. Do we know all that much about how interpretive freedom was different in 1790 than in 1730?

Maybe I simply disagree but I just do not see the arguments for Kam's claims.

Musicians like Harnoncourt or Jacobs who go for a very rhetorical, sometimes exaggerated style sometimes claimed to be rooted in baroque "affects" do this in Haydn pretty much in the same fashion as in Mozart. And more straightforward interpretations, e.g. Hogwood's, don't make much of a difference either, i.e. they are similarly straight in Haydn as in Mozart.
As Mozart is sometimes more "opera-like" or more obviously passionate and dramatic one could claim that Mozart had to be played with more freedom or different/stronger gestures than the more "intellectual" or "witty" music of Haydn. (I am not sure, but I think this would be more plausible than the other way round.)

If he simply means that Haydn's music can become boring in boring interpretations, I cannot disagree. But I don't see how Haydn differs from Mozart in this respect.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on October 19, 2015, 02:31:05 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on October 19, 2015, 01:01:19 PM
If he simply means that Haydn's music can become boring in boring interpretations, I cannot disagree. But I don't see how Haydn differs from Mozart in this respect.

I think this is the crux of your disagreement with him. He apparently thinks there is no such thing as a boring interpretation of Mozart (or maybe he thinks that there is such a thing but that a performer has to work hard to achieve it ;) ). And obviously he didn't like whatever historical Haydn recordings he heard.

I don't know whether he has any academic historical justification for his (their?) distinction between Mozart and Haydn interpretation. Maybe he does and the interviewer didn't address it, or maybe it is simply what he thinks works musically.

I do, however, support their choice to play Haydn differently than Mozart, in general principle regardless of whether I like their specific results. I also support Harnoncourt's, Jacobs's, Hogwood's, and Beghin's choice to play them similarly.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 19, 2015, 05:06:33 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 19, 2015, 12:49:16 PM
OK, but we don't seem to hear it very clearly in the performances.

Bear in mind when listening to their CDs that Kam is not an original member of the quartet, and did not participate in the Haydn recordings. I don't think he was with them for the Mozart CD, but don't have it handy to be sure.

That said, I don't think there was any real difference between the performance last Thursday and the CD performance. If there was, it escaped my ears.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on October 19, 2015, 06:33:06 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2015, 10:26:42 AM
True as far as it goes, but back in the day, they were performed by the same people, often back-to-back. One would naturally assume no great divergence in playing style. God only knows what the 19th century did to either or both of them, though. :)

There are records (written, not phonograph) of Haydn and Mozart actually playing each others works at quartet parties, once, along with Ditters and Vanhal, and other times with Leopold present and then with Maximilian Stadler (they played Mozart's quintets that time). So stylistically, I would expect, umm... similarity. :)

8)

Well, I'm late in this discussion, but this is brilliant and decisive to me. They (Mozart and Haydn) shared a common background and musical language... and they perfectly knew it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2015, 07:05:35 PM

Quote from: Gordo on October 19, 2015, 06:33:06 PM
Well, I'm late in this discussion, but this is brilliant and decisive to me. They (Mozart and Haydn) shared a common background and musical language... and they perfectly knew it.

It is hard to come up with any example which puts this in the wrong. Just as you say, common language, common playing style; it is very fair to say that Mozart's quartet style is based on Haydn's, added to which is his own personal idiom. It is almost like members of the Jerusalem Quartet, except they wrote their own. :D

Very nice to see you back, Gordo. No mas terremotos! :o

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on October 19, 2015, 07:21:40 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2015, 07:05:35 PM
Very nice to see you back, Gordo. No mas terremotos! :o

8)

No, dear friend. It's not so easy. My country is geographically fucked up. This very same morning we had a "little earthquake", just to remind us of our condition. :( :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on October 19, 2015, 11:53:19 PM

Quote from: Pat B on October 19, 2015, 12:42:27 PM
As I understood it, his idea is that Mozart sounds good played straight

I think it depends on the works --- and on the listener, of course. To my ears, the early piano sonatas sound best when played straight, their profound spirituality being embedded in their very simplicity (it might not be mere coincidence that their best performances are by women: Haebler, Kraus, Pires --- haven´t heard Uchida yet.). On the other hand, the best set of violin sonatas I know it´s the one by Mutter and Orkis, and to say that there is no dearth of interpretation there would be a gross understatement. Then there is the Bohm´s war recording of Jupiter Symphony, as angst-ridden, ominous and ambiguous as anything Shostakovich wrote at about the same time.

IMHO there is no one single right way to perform this or that music, certainly not with Mozart and Haydn, whose work is so vast and multifaceted that they openly defy any uniformity.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 20, 2015, 04:20:31 AM

Quote from: Florestan on October 19, 2015, 11:53:19 PM
I think it depends on the works --- and on the listener, of course. To my ears, the early piano sonatas sound best when played straight, their profound spirituality being embedded in their very simplicity (it might not be mere coincidence that their best performances are by women: Haebler, Kraus, Pires --- haven´t heard Uchida yet.). On the other hand, the best set of violin sonatas I know it´s the one by Mutter and Orkis, and to say that there is no dearth of interpretation there would be a gross understatement. Then there is the Bohm´s war recording of Jupiter Symphony, as angst-ridden, ominous and ambiguous as anything Shostakovich wrote at about the same time.

IMHO there is no one single right way to perform this or that music, certainly not with Mozart and Haydn, whose work is so vast and multifaceted that they openly defy any uniformity.

And of course, this is the truth of the matter. The "right" way is the way you like it. When I insist on an ideal interpretation, I fully realize it is only ideal for me. The actual 'truth' is still on paper, awaiting someone else to play as it pleases them, and hopefully some of their listeners will consider it the truth. Haydn's (and Mozart's et al) music always awaits new ideas for interpretation, but in and of itself, it never changes.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 20, 2015, 04:22:35 AM

The essential mystery of music, perhaps.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 20, 2015, 04:53:30 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on October 20, 2015, 04:22:35 AM
The essential mystery of music, perhaps.

If there is one...

The essential mystery of man, perhaps? 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on October 20, 2015, 04:57:00 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 20, 2015, 04:20:31 AM
And of course, this is the truth of the matter. The "right" way is the way you like it. When I insist on an ideal interpretation, I fully realize it is only ideal for me. The actual 'truth' is still on paper, awaiting someone else to play as it pleases them, and hopefully some of their listeners will consider it the truth. Haydn's (and Mozart's et al) music always awaits new ideas for interpretation, but in and of itself, it never changes.

Quote from: karlhenning on October 20, 2015, 04:22:35 AM
The essential mystery of music, perhaps.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 20, 2015, 04:53:30 AM
The essential mystery of man, perhaps? 0:)

A triple amen!, gentlemen.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on October 20, 2015, 08:22:54 AM

Quote from: Gordo on October 19, 2015, 06:33:06 PM
Well, I'm late in this discussion, but this is brilliant and decisive to me. They (Mozart and Haydn) shared a common background and musical language... and they perfectly knew it.

That has never been in dispute. But in the context of Kam's comments on interpretive freedom, I'm not sure how relevant it is, unless you're insinuating that their compositional styles are actually identical.

Regardless, I hope you are safe.

Quote from: Florestan on October 19, 2015, 11:53:19 PM
I think it depends on the works --- and on the listener, of course. To my ears, the early piano sonatas sound best when played straight, their profound spirituality being embedded in their very simplicity (it might not be mere coincidence that their best performances are by women: Haebler, Kraus, Pires --- haven´t heard Uchida yet.). On the other hand, the best set of violin sonatas I know it´s the one by Mutter and Orkis, and to say that there is no dearth of interpretation there would be a gross understatement. Then there is the Bohm´s war recording of Jupiter Symphony, as angst-ridden, ominous and ambiguous as anything Shostakovich wrote at about the same time.

IMHO there is no one single right way to perform this or that music, certainly not with Mozart and Haydn, whose work is so vast and multifaceted that they openly defy any uniformity.

I mostly agree with your gist. But to be clear, Kam did not say that Mozart should be played straight. What he said was that Mozart withstands being played straight.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on October 20, 2015, 08:42:41 AM

Quote from: Pat B on October 20, 2015, 08:22:54 AM
That has never been in dispute. But in the context of Kam's comments on interpretive freedom, I'm not sure how relevant it is, unless you're insinuating that their compositional styles are actually identical.

No, I would never suggest something like that; but every "musical era" has some relatively standard notions about interpretative proceedings (performance practice), including the margin of freedom allowed to (expected from) the performers. And the musical circles of Haydn and Mozart were, at least, very close, so I wouldn't expect notions strikingly divergent about this issue. That's all. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 20, 2015, 08:43:07 AM

Quote from: Pat B on October 20, 2015, 08:22:54 AM
That has never been in dispute. But in the context of Kam's comments on interpretive freedom, I'm not sure how relevant it is, unless you're insinuating that their compositional styles are actually identical.

Regardless, I hope you are safe.

I mostly agree with your gist. But to be clear, Kam did not say that Mozart should be played straight. What he said was that Mozart withstands being played straight.

I once got into a discussion about rubato on rmcr, in the context of Mozart piano sonatas, and in the end we found two performances which are pretty well rubato free - Pletnev's first recording for Melodyia and Ashkenazy's first recording for EMI I think. Pletnev is hardly straight though - he's such a master of dynamics and piano timbres and voicing that "straight" doesn't fit at all.

Ashkenazy's not a pianist I feel great empathy for, so I don't know his recording as well as Pletnev's, but I can say it's "straighter." I can also say that I'm less clear that it's successful - though I know people who like it.

Anyway it's not obvious to me that Mozart withstands being played straight.

I don't feel confident to comment on Haydn, does anyone play the music straight, no rubato, equal voicing etc?

Claudio Columbo maybe - maybe the Jerusalem quartet should start to make computer generated Mozart recordings.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: El Chupacabra on October 20, 2015, 09:37:33 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 20, 2015, 08:43:07 AM
in the context of Mozart piano sonatas, and in the end we found two performances which are pretty well rubato free -

May I ask what your aim with a rubato-free Mozart piano sonata performance is?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 20, 2015, 09:47:45 AM

Quote from: El Chupacabra on October 20, 2015, 09:37:33 AM
May I ask what your aim with a rubato-free Mozart piano sonata performance is?

It was someone who just said he didn't like rubato in Classical style, a matter of taste that's all I think, not a matter of principle - so we were exploring things he might like. I was glad to have found the Pletnev (very different from his DG recording) and still play it as frequently as any other Mozart - though it is very odd.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: El Chupacabra on October 20, 2015, 09:52:33 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 20, 2015, 09:47:45 AM
It was someone who just said he didn't like rubato in Classical style, a matter of taste that's all I think, not a matter of principle - so we were exploring things he might like. I was glad to have found the Pletnev (very different from his DG recording) and still play it as frequently as any other Mozart - though it is very odd.

'like' should be irrelevant for you(after reading some of your posts). This is not pop music and Mozart states "rubato" in his correspondences in the context of the instruments(fortepianos).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 20, 2015, 10:03:50 AM

Quote from: El Chupacabra on October 20, 2015, 09:52:33 AM
'like' should be irrelevant for you(after reading some of your posts). This is not pop music and Mozart states "rubato" in his correspondences in the context of the instruments(fortepianos).

Yes you're right. Nevertheless I'm very glad to have the Pletnev CD. Just as I'm very glad to have other uninformed performances, like Walcha and Munchinger in Bach.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: El Chupacabra on October 20, 2015, 10:12:18 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 20, 2015, 10:03:50 AM
Nevertheless I'm very glad to have the Pletnev CD. Just as I'm very glad to have other uninformed performances, like Walcha and Munchinger in Bach.

Pletnev's only K570 works for me.
"Uninformed" Bach and "uninformed" Mozart are completely different things in performance science. We have expressive information from Mozart, Bach is almost "all you can eat".

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 20, 2015, 10:33:54 AM

Quote from: El Chupacabra on October 20, 2015, 10:12:18 AM

"Uninformed" Bach and "uninformed" Mozart are completely different things in performance science. We have expressive information from Mozart, Bach is almost "all you can eat".

Yes you may be right, though obviously the contemporary instruments provide limitations and the contemporary writing (not by Bach, but by people he knew about) provides possibilities. The question is complex because what's informed expression for a sarabande or a prelude may not be for a fugue or a canon. I know nothing about expression on Mozart or Haydn.

By the way, what's your dog picture? -- I'm sure I've seen it somewhere, in a gallery maybe.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on October 20, 2015, 10:46:23 AM

Quote from: Gordo on October 20, 2015, 08:42:41 AM
No, I would never suggest something like that; but every "musical era" has some relatively standard notions about interpretative proceedings (performance practice), including the margin of freedom allowed to (expected from) the performers. And the musical circles of Haydn and Mozart were, at least, very close, so I wouldn't expect notions strikingly divergent about this issue. That's all. :)

I appreciate the thoughtful response. I think it's worth noting again that the Jerusalem Quartet's recordings don't treat Haydn and Mozart drastically differently as far as I can tell.

I look at it as analogous to Bach and Vivaldi. They lived simultaneously, Bach studied Vivaldi's works, and most performers will treat them roughly similarly. But if a performer believes there is some nuance that works better in one than the other (or is more important in one than the other), then I don't see any problem with that -- even if the historical record doesn't specifically mention it.

Quote from: Mandryka on October 20, 2015, 08:43:07 AM
Anyway it's not obvious to me that Mozart withstands being played straight.

I don't feel confident to comment on Haydn, does anyone play the music straight, no rubato, equal voicing etc?

Claudio Columbo maybe - maybe the Jerusalem quartet should start to make computer generated Mozart recordings.

Claudio Columbo, LOL.

Interesting comments about Pletnev and Ashkenazy. You might be right about Mozart, I don't know, but I'm glad we've gotten around to addressing what Kam actually said. ;)

I spotified a bit of the Pro Arte Quartet in op.33#3. Compared to Jerusalem in the same work, PA sounded very much like just the notes. I wasn't into it at all. I listened to Budapest in something else (without comparison), and it seemed better but still not very inflected.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on October 20, 2015, 10:55:24 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 20, 2015, 10:33:54 AM
what's informed expression for a sarabande or a prelude may not be for a fugue or a canon.

Yes! Even if they were originally performed by the same person.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 20, 2015, 11:01:17 AM

As both Pletnev and Ashkenazy were playing instruments rather different from the ones existing in Mozart's time, it is hard for me to imagine that more or less rubato would be the biggest difference to a probable interpretation by the composer or a contemporary.

We know that orchestral music by Haydn and Mozart was often played with hardly any rehearsals. So these interpretations had to be fairly straightforward compared to the "micro-management" we get from 20th/21st century interpretations (emphatically including some HIP musicians).

Solo (piano) music might have been played comparably "free" and there were probably different "schools" with diverging styles. Some slow movements always demanded embellishing and when one was called "a strong adagio player" it was meant that one was good at making up original embellishments for those movements.
Apparently the young Beethoven had not liked Mozart's more "detached" piano playing style although he revered the composer (and Mozart disliked Clementi's).

A string quartet would have allowed a little more freedom than orchestral music but as these were also often played without much rehearsal time, I guess that here rather straight playing would also have been normal.

OTOH many structures and textures are common among classical style solo piano, chamber and orchestral music, so it does not seem likely that they were played in wildly diverging ways.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: prémont on October 20, 2015, 11:23:03 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 20, 2015, 10:03:50 AM
.....other uninformed performances, like Walcha and Munchinger in Bach.

Walcha and Münchinger, who began their recording careers in the late 1940es (Walcha: Jacobi,Lübeck 1947 and Münchinger: Brandenburg concertos 1949). were relatively informed for their time, certainly the best the 1940es could draw upon . The problem with them was from a HIP point of view, that they stayed loyal to their original concepts, without trying to renew themselves according to the musicological research of the 1950es and on. They probably considered HIP too museal. This is more a question of standpoint than a question of musicology. It is sad to think of how great musicians, they might have become, if they had adopted the HIP style.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: El Chupacabra on October 20, 2015, 12:33:18 PM

Quote from: (: premont :) on October 20, 2015, 11:23:03 AM
This is more a question of standpoint than a question of musicology. It is sad to think of how great musicians, they might have become, if they had adopted the HIP style.

Actually, this is what I am trying to distinguish whenever I can. The "performer's standpoint" is inclined to create faults as they, almost without exception, tend to like engaging in the creative process. One might claim that if they (as a performer) obey the instructions and texts of a particular composer they feel that they won't be representing the classical style (in Mozart example). In Mozart, for instance, somewhere in the middle of K330 there is a departure from the on-going expressive way in the middle section, he obviously designates/writes 'da capo' on the manuscript, does he mean 'note-for-note repeat the original' or does he mean 'repeat basically the same music as the opening'? that, the performer can decide (my view) and that changes with time because the contemporary evidence which points the latter was not known, say, 100 years ago. But what I personally am against is, Mozart gives the whole embellishments for most of the sonatas, for instance, K309's adagio's is complete, the performer should not intervene at all. Commonly, Mozart's sonatas are intervened in three kinds, with generic ornamentations, diminutions and recompositions (at appropriate cadential pauses). I'm against all three unless Mozart himself refrains. For Baroque it is completely another story. My opinion is if they happened to have applied HIP from the beginning, for instance, Telemann would be a much more respected and popular composer. He is one composer with modern style and a completely different one with its style applied. I invite everyone to give it a try by way of comparison.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: El Chupacabra on October 21, 2015, 04:21:06 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 20, 2015, 10:33:54 AM
By the way, what's your dog picture? -- I'm sure I've seen it somewhere, in a gallery maybe.

It's a very well groomed and smart rascal, an American Pit Bull Terrier. I'd be very surprised if you did.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2015, 05:56:37 AM

Quote from: El Chupacabra on October 20, 2015, 12:33:18 PM
Actually, this is what I am trying to distinguish whenever I can. The "performer's standpoint" is inclined to create faults as they, almost without exception, tend to like engaging in the creative process. One might claim that if they (as a performer) obey the instructions and texts of a particular composer they feel that they won't be representing the classical style (in Mozart example). In Mozart, for instance, somewhere in the middle of K330 there is a departure from the on-going expressive way in the middle section, he obviously designates/writes 'da capo' on the manuscript, does he mean 'note-for-note repeat the original' or does he mean 'repeat basically the same music as the opening'? that, the performer can decide (my view) and that changes with time because the contemporary evidence which points the latter was not known, say, 100 years ago. But what I personally am against is, Mozart gives the whole embellishments for most of the sonatas, for instance, K309's adagio's is complete, the performer should not intervene at all. Commonly, Mozart's sonatas are intervened in three kinds, with generic ornamentations, diminutions and recompositions (at appropriate cadential pauses). I'm against all three unless Mozart himself refrains. For Baroque it is completely another story. My opinion is if they happened to have applied HIP from the beginning, for instance, Telemann would be a much more respected and popular composer. He is one composer with modern style and a completely different one with its style applied. I invite everyone to give it a try by way of comparison.

I'm not sure I follow completely your line here, but Tom Beghin, in discussing Haydn's sonatas, discusses this dilemma for the player. In the middle (1775-82) Haydn sonatas, Haydn writes things out fully embellished, then marks it da capo. So the decision for the player is what? Do I play it fully embellished twice? Or what do I do? Beghin's solution is that he feels Haydn is indicating what ornamentation should be used. He isn't writing for professional pianists. Neither is Mozart. In 1775, professional pianists would have been embarrassed to play someone else's work. They were writing for good amateurs, and showing them how to ornament properly. So Beghin tends to play it the first time through without the ornaments, or with minimal ornaments. On the da capo, then, he can properly play it as written. I have every PI/HIP piano sonata disk of Haydn, and most of Mozart, and Beghin is in my top few in terms of realistic interpretation.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: El Chupacabra on October 21, 2015, 06:33:03 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2015, 05:56:37 AM
I'm not sure I follow completely your line here, but Tom Beghin, in discussing Haydn's sonatas, discusses this dilemma for the player. In the middle (1775-82) Haydn sonatas, Haydn writes things out fully embellished, then marks it da capo. So the decision for the player is what? Do I play it fully embellished twice? Or what do I do? Beghin's solution is that he feels Haydn is indicating what ornamentation should be used. He isn't writing for professional pianists. Neither is Mozart. In 1775, professional pianists would have been embarrassed to play someone else's work. They were writing for good amateurs, and showing them how to ornament properly. So Beghin tends to play it the first time through without the ornaments, or with minimal ornaments. On the da capo, then, he can properly play it as written. I have every PI/HIP piano sonata disk of Haydn, and most of Mozart, and Beghin is in my top few in terms of realistic interpretation.

8)

I can understand why you can't follow because I believe there is a discrepancy in what you trust in. Do you have Beghin's K570 handy, in order to establish a common point, which I'll try to spend time on it and explain if you do?

Edit:

I'll go on anyway because it was in front of me and I'm sure if it interests you you'd listen to it...

Beghin is a big interventionist.

At times, his embellishments amount to wholesale recomposition of Mozart's notated score, for instance, in the repeat of bars 7 and 8, where the right hand becomes quite rhapsodic. In the first (c minor) episode, Beghin applies an embellishment at the repeat of bar 13, beats 1 and 3, similar to that of Brautigam (the rhythm is the same, though the shape of Beghin's figure is slightly different and is doubled in thirds), when this moment returns for the last time (in the repeat of bar 21), Beghin plays demisemiquavers in doubled thirds which highlights this as a climactic moment in his reading of the structure while simultaneously relating it (quantitatively, by degree) to the embellishment of bar 13's repeat. As his performance of the episode unfolds, so the density of embellishment applied to this figure grows, and his activity – especially his importation of virtuosity at the climactic bar 21 – defines the performance space memorably as a primary level equivalent in status to the notated text. Mozart's text is here creatively extended to include the gestural not simply as an agency for the representation of the 'Work', but as a mode of conveying understanding. You can say that Beghin's performance here is itself a 'text'. (It is a text that contains clear strategic planning in its application of rhapsodic, florid right-hand embellishment at cadence approaches (for instance, the repeat of bars 29–30), as also of sextuplet semiquavers to enhance repeats of ascending phrases (at bars 5, 18, 34 and 37, for instance). Uniquely, at bar 22, beat 4, Beghin introduces a sextuplet decoration in the left hand.) Beghin's entire approach is overtly rhetorical in nature...as far as I know one of his studies on Haydn with Goldberg is called Performance of Rhetoric :) (and I have a Virtual Haydn book of his which I'll skim tonight)...maximizing the impact of local gesture by careful emphasis of the precise articulations (especially the separation between adjacent slurred groups throughout the opening phrase), building phrases by speaking their individual components, rather than moulding everything into a seamless legato, and, most notably, deliberately sacrificing all attempts at a steady tempo in order to allow this. The tempo varies considerably from section to section, even within individual phrases; if there is a notional tempo, it lies at roughly 42, though it increases to 48–50 within even the first section of the opening theme, and the first episode is notably a quicker 52...to wrap it up, this many 'interventions' and your 'top few in terms of realistic interpretation' does not fit the scope that I tried to describe previously.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 21, 2015, 04:22:29 PM

But if Mozart and Haydn expected interventions from the performer, then Beghin's treatment is realistic.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2015, 04:37:30 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 21, 2015, 04:22:29 PM

But if Mozart and Haydn expected interventions from the performer, then Beghin's treatment is realistic.

Which exactly begs the question.

Quote from: El Chupacabra on October 21, 2015, 06:33:03 AM
I can understand why you can't follow because I believe there is a discrepancy in what you trust in. Do you have Beghin's K570 handy, in order to establish a common point, which I'll try to spend time on it and explain if you do?

Edit:

I'll go on anyway because it was in front of me and I'm sure if it interests you you'd listen to it...

Beghin is a big interventionist.

At times, his embellishments amount to wholesale recomposition of Mozart's notated score, for instance, in the repeat of bars 7 and 8, where the right hand becomes quite rhapsodic. In the first (c minor) episode, Beghin applies an embellishment at the repeat of bar 13, beats 1 and 3, similar to that of Brautigam (the rhythm is the same, though the shape of Beghin's figure is slightly different and is doubled in thirds), when this moment returns for the last time (in the repeat of bar 21), Beghin plays demisemiquavers in doubled thirds which highlights this as a climactic moment in his reading of the structure while simultaneously relating it (quantitatively, by degree) to the embellishment of bar 13's repeat. As his performance of the episode unfolds, so the density of embellishment applied to this figure grows, and his activity – especially his importation of virtuosity at the climactic bar 21 – defines the performance space memorably as a primary level equivalent in status to the notated text. Mozart's text is here creatively extended to include the gestural not simply as an agency for the representation of the 'Work', but as a mode of conveying understanding. You can say that Beghin's performance here is itself a 'text'. (It is a text that contains clear strategic planning in its application of rhapsodic, florid right-hand embellishment at cadence approaches (for instance, the repeat of bars 29–30), as also of sextuplet semiquavers to enhance repeats of ascending phrases (at bars 5, 18, 34 and 37, for instance). Uniquely, at bar 22, beat 4, Beghin introduces a sextuplet decoration in the left hand.) Beghin's entire approach is overtly rhetorical in nature...as far as I know one of his studies on Haydn with Goldberg is called Performance of Rhetoric :) (and I have a Virtual Haydn book of his which I'll skim tonight)...maximizing the impact of local gesture by careful emphasis of the precise articulations (especially the separation between adjacent slurred groups throughout the opening phrase), building phrases by speaking their individual components, rather than moulding everything into a seamless legato, and, most notably, deliberately sacrificing all attempts at a steady tempo in order to allow this. The tempo varies considerably from section to section, even within individual phrases; if there is a notional tempo, it lies at roughly 42, though it increases to 48–50 within even the first section of the opening theme, and the first episode is notably a quicker 52...to wrap it up, this many 'interventions' and your 'top few in terms of realistic interpretation' does not fit the scope that I tried to describe previously.

The idea of 'non-interventionism' is a 19th century invention, or post-Beethovenian to be more accurate. In the 18th century, a performer was expected to be 'interventionist' as you state it. I am not a musician nor an analyst of music, so I can't really answer your points, although I see what you are saying. I do know a little bit of history though, and one thing I know is that note for note adherence to a written score had little place in 18th century performance. It was a long range goal, especially in orchestral music, the arc of which lasted the entire 18th century, and continued into the early 19th. But in solo keyboard works, it was up to the performer to analyze and decide what and how to play what he saw on paper. It was actually only after Haydn started writing specifically for publication that he began indicating things like dynamics and using various symbols for ornaments, many of which he took from CPE Bach's publications, some of which he devised on his own. For anyone playing off an original manuscript, there is a hell of a lot more decision-making involved than when playing from a 19th or 20th century edition which has meticulously had the thought process removed by careful editing.

So yes, from the point of view of what entertains me when I listen to Haydn's keyboard music, Beghin is well up the list. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 21, 2015, 09:43:09 PM

Quote from: El Chupacabra on October 21, 2015, 06:33:03 AM
I can understand why you can't follow because I believe there is a discrepancy in what you trust in. Do you have Beghin's K570 handy, in order to establish a common point, which I'll try to spend time on it and explain if you do?

Edit:

I'll go on anyway because it was in front of me and I'm sure if it interests you you'd listen to it...

Beghin is a big interventionist.

At times, his embellishments amount to wholesale recomposition of Mozart's notated score, for instance, in the repeat of bars 7 and 8, where the right hand becomes quite rhapsodic. In the first (c minor) episode, Beghin applies an embellishment at the repeat of bar 13, beats 1 and 3, similar to that of Brautigam (the rhythm is the same, though the shape of Beghin's figure is slightly different and is doubled in thirds), when this moment returns for the last time (in the repeat of bar 21), Beghin plays demisemiquavers in doubled thirds which highlights this as a climactic moment in his reading of the structure while simultaneously relating it (quantitatively, by degree) to the embellishment of bar 13's repeat. As his performance of the episode unfolds, so the density of embellishment applied to this figure grows, and his activity – especially his importation of virtuosity at the climactic bar 21 – defines the performance space memorably as a primary level equivalent in status to the notated text. Mozart's text is here creatively extended to include the gestural not simply as an agency for the representation of the 'Work', but as a mode of conveying understanding. You can say that Beghin's performance here is itself a 'text'. (It is a text that contains clear strategic planning in its application of rhapsodic, florid right-hand embellishment at cadence approaches (for instance, the repeat of bars 29–30), as also of sextuplet semiquavers to enhance repeats of ascending phrases (at bars 5, 18, 34 and 37, for instance). Uniquely, at bar 22, beat 4, Beghin introduces a sextuplet decoration in the left hand.) Beghin's entire approach is overtly rhetorical in nature...as far as I know one of his studies on Haydn with Goldberg is called Performance of Rhetoric :) (and I have a Virtual Haydn book of his which I'll skim tonight)...maximizing the impact of local gesture by careful emphasis of the precise articulations (especially the separation between adjacent slurred groups throughout the opening phrase), building phrases by speaking their individual components, rather than moulding everything into a seamless legato, and, most notably, deliberately sacrificing all attempts at a steady tempo in order to allow this. The tempo varies considerably from section to section, even within individual phrases; if there is a notional tempo, it lies at roughly 42, though it increases to 48–50 within even the first section of the opening theme, and the first episode is notably a quicker 52...to wrap it up, this many 'interventions' and your 'top few in terms of realistic interpretation' does not fit the scope that I tried to describe previously.

Just focussing on one of these things so I can understand your position better, I guess you like what he does at bar 21, where the ornamentation comes from an idea about a climax in the score.

Sometimes I wonder whether small cell articulation isn't used unreflectively, performers assuming that all early music has an underlying rhetorical plan. If Beghin has an argument to suggest that Mozart was following a ground plan like a speech by Quintilian, then I'd love to see it. Because as far as I can see that's what he'd need to justify the rhetorical approach.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 21, 2015, 09:46:31 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 21, 2015, 04:22:29 PM
But if Mozart and Haydn expected interventions from the performer, then Beghin's treatment is realistic.

Yes but what were the interventions expected to be like? Were they supposed to make ideas present in the score more evident, or were they supposed to come out of the casual creative will of the performer?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: El Chupacabra on October 22, 2015, 04:32:03 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 21, 2015, 04:22:29 PM
But if Mozart and Haydn expected interventions from the performer...

These are not dark ages anymore. We have enough texts and letters by Mozart to know that that's not the case but I don't know that much about Haydn. Sometimes it helps to keep in mind that 1750's are the beginnings of modern music publishing, too.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2015, 04:37:30 PM
...For anyone playing off an original manuscript, there is a hell of a lot more decision-making involved than when playing from a 19th or 20th century edition which has meticulously had the thought process removed by careful editing.

So yes, from the point of view of what entertains me when I listen to Haydn's keyboard music, Beghin is well up the list. :)

8)

Of course, there a lot to consider. I wasn't trying to be simplistic. Entertaining ourselves is the aim of us all.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2015, 05:02:59 AM

Quote from: El Chupacabra on October 22, 2015, 04:32:03 AM
These are not dark ages anymore. We have enough texts and letters by Mozart to know that that's not the case but I don't know that much about Haydn. Sometimes it helps to keep in mind that 1750's are the beginnings of modern music publishing, too.
Of course, there a lot to consider. I wasn't trying to be simplistic. Entertaining ourselves is the aim of us all.

Amen to that!

My only aim here was to make the point that the 19th century concept of slavish devotion to the script simply didn't exist. Even composers like Mozart (especially in his piano concertos!!) left a lot open for the performer. If you read his letters to Nannerl when he sent her things to play, there he told her he wrote them out for her (because he knew she lacked the inventiveness to devise something herself). But that was just a favor for a sister. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: El Chupacabra on October 22, 2015, 05:38:26 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2015, 05:02:59 AM
Amen to that!

My only aim here was to make the point that the 19th century concept of slavish devotion to the script simply didn't exist. Even composers like Mozart (especially in his piano concertos!!) left a lot open for the performer. If you read his letters to Nannerl when he sent her things to play, there he told her he wrote them out for her (because he knew she lacked the inventiveness to devise something herself). But that was just a favor for a sister. :)

8)

:laugh: You are incorrigible.

It's not the composers of the 18th but the writers of the period that pushed it. Such as this example from 1771 by Anselm Bayly's "treatise on singing, etc" (the writer could as well be you :) )
"Many composers insert appoggiaturas and graces, which indeed may assist the learner, but not a performer well educated and of a good taste, who may omit them as he shall judge proper, vary them, or introduce others from his own fancy and imagination. ... The business of a composer is to give the air and expression in plain notes, who goes out of his province when he writes graces, which serve for the most part only to stop and confine the invention and imagination of a singer. The only excuse a composer can plead for this practice, is the want of qualifications in the generality of singers"
The view is the same as you try to input but by different forces.
What I am saying is, scholarship has only recently begun to make a modest impact, that is to regard Classical and Romantic composers' notation as literal and definitive, and to adhere to it as closely as possible in performance. The more we examine the letters between his father and Mozart, the more we adhere... :) enough said.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2015, 05:53:24 AM

Quote from: El Chupacabra on October 22, 2015, 05:38:26 AM
:laugh: You are incorrigible.

It's not the composers of the 18th but the writers of the period that pushed it. Such as this example from 1771 by Anselm Bayly's "treatise on singing, etc" (the writer could as well be you :) )
"Many composers insert appoggiaturas and graces, which indeed may assist the learner, but not a performer well educated and of a good taste, who may omit them as he shall judge proper, vary them, or introduce others from his own fancy and imagination. ... The business of a composer is to give the air and expression in plain notes, who goes out of his province when he writes graces, which serve for the most part only to stop and confine the invention and imagination of a singer. The only excuse a composer can plead for this practice, is the want of qualifications in the generality of singers"
The view is the same as you try to input but by different forces.
What I am saying is, scholarship has only recently begun to make a modest impact, that is to regard Classical and Romantic composers' notation as literal and definitive, and to adhere to it as closely as possible in performance. The more we examine the letters between his father and Mozart, the more we adhere... :) enough said.

Oh yes, incorrigibility is both my middle name and my watchword! :)

I will get back to you on this when I am not at work. Clearly we are of a different mind. A thread on this outside of this Haydn one might open up the discussion a bit more. Anyway, more later. Ciao bello. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: El Chupacabra on October 23, 2015, 01:44:34 AM

♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ ♪ ♫ [the sound of ominous organ music indicating trouble ahead]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on October 25, 2015, 03:50:47 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on October 19, 2015, 12:01:11 PM
But as everybody knows they were contemporaries and friends so it seems preposterous to claim that Haydn "was still in the baroque style" and should therefore be played differently from Mozart.

Friends, yes. Contemporaries?

You don't think the fact that one was 24 years older than the other had any bearing on their music? I'm sure I've had friends who were 24 years different in age from me, but they didn't grow up in the same world that I did.

When Haydn was growing up, Baroque composers like J.S. Bach and Vivaldi and Handel were alive and composing. To Mozart, these people were purely historical figures. There were styles that Haydn would've remembered coming into being (indeed, he helped bring them into being) that for Mozart were just a fact of life.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 25, 2015, 05:41:07 AM

Both Mozart and Haydn grew probably up with the same "old style" church music and Fux' "Gradus ad Parnassum" counterpoint exercises. Haydn was not (more) familiar with e.g. Bach's or Handel's music only because their lifetimes overlapped for a longer time. Mozart was also precocious, trained from an early age by a zealous father, a very accomplished composer who had absorbed most of contemporary styles with 17 or so, whereas Haydn had to find his way after having to leave the choir and could not "settle" down before his late 20s, so in "professional age" they were certainly not 24 years apart, more like 12 or 15. Sure, Haydn had composed quite a bit since the late 1750s, but most of his important compositions are in fact contemporary with work by Mozart.
Already in the early 1770s we have the teenage Mozart reacting to important works by Haydn and other composers, e.g. (probably) to Haydn's op.20 in his second batch of string quartets K 168-173. So I'd say they were contemporaries for the important parts of their careers.

There were no big cultural rifts between 1750 or 1770 Austria, so I don't buy the idea that Haydn's early training and influences received around 1750 would make him stylistically the way he was. Sure, he is different from Mozart, but I don't hear in his (mature) music that he is closer to the baroque/gallant style of the 1740s because he was older than WAM.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 25, 2015, 06:57:46 AM

If we are only counting mature music and what the 19th century called his greatest works, that is one argument. I agree with what you are saying. If we are counting entire oeuvres, that is something else altogether. 75% of Haydn's output came before 1780, or before Mozart's Golden Age in Vienna. Apples v Oranges...

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 25, 2015, 08:03:55 AM

I think it would be somewhat perverse for the Haydn lover to discount works post 1780 only because some of the earlier ones might have been underappreciated, wouldn't it ;) Furthermore, I was not talking about post-1780, rather post-1770.

But that's all beside the point. One reading of the remarks of that Jerusalem quartet player is that Haydn's style is somewhat closer to the baroque or in any case in important aspects different from Mozart's BECAUSE he was older. First of all, I do not find any evidence of this in the music, discounting some really early works or church music (which is often different and more "conservative"). When we are talking string quartets, the only pieces one would have to exclude as not contemporary (and they are hardly baroque in my view) are opp. 1+2.

Because it would hardly be fruitful to insist that e.g. Haydn's op.9 were "not contemporary" with Mozart's 1773 quartets because they were written in 1769. Surely, music composed within a window of 5 or 10 years will usually count as contemporary to each other! Finer gradings would certainly need a special argument, I believe.
So for most common readings of "contemporary" the works of the teenager Mozart in the early 1770s are contemporary not only with Haydn's "narrowly contemporary" works of the early 1770s but also with Haydn's works of the early 1760s.

If one wants to argue that Haydn's earliest pieces, say, before his job with Esterhazy, should not count as contemporary with Mozart, that's fine, but one would hardly want to make an argument based on those early works for the position that Haydn's oeuvre, taken as a whole, is not (in the usual wider sense) contemporary with Mozart's.

If anything, it seems more fruitful to claim that Haydn's *late works* are not contemporary with Mozart, because the latter was dead. But of course this would be very dubious again with regard to the normal coarser grained usage of "contemporary" and it would never help with establishing any claims based on Haydn being 24 years older :D

It seems obvious to me that stylistic differences are not so simply tied to the exact time a composer learned or lived in that merely referring to Haydn being older by 24 years would make an auspicious argument for such differences. Joh. Chr. Bach (1735-82) surely must count as the same generation as Haydn but his music is far closer to Mozart (or more precisely the other way round, because the youngest Bach son was an important influence on the child Mozart).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 25, 2015, 08:13:32 AM

Yup. you're right. In that context, you are correct. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 25, 2015, 09:38:15 AM

Here are some quartets which don't particularly have their roots in the Baroque, despite rumors to the contrary. :D Opus 64 is one of those hidden gems which has to fight for the attention it deserves.

French Tost? Well, maybe! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/10/1790-the-music-part-2-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 01, 2015, 08:39:09 AM

When I started out on this Haydn journey, I wasn't much of a fan of vocal music. Now, I realize I'm going to miss my weekly look at what's happening at the ole Opry... :(

Going out on a high note (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/11/1790-the-music-part-3-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 08, 2015, 06:07:06 AM

Well, I've safely seen Haydn onto the road to London, by far his biggest adventure ever. Mine too, for that matter. See how I wrapped up the loose ends of 1790 this week.

Almost an opera! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/11/1790-the-year-part-3.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Bogey on November 08, 2015, 06:47:55 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 01, 2015, 08:39:09 AM
When I started out on this Haydn journey, I wasn't much of a fan of vocal music. Now, I realize I'm going to miss my weekly look at what's happening at the ole Opry... :(

Going out on a high note (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/11/1790-the-music-part-3-.html)

Thanks,
8)

You almost went Minnie Pearl on us there, Gurn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 08, 2015, 08:22:00 AM

Quote from: Bogey on November 08, 2015, 06:47:55 AM
You almost went Minnie Pearl on us there, Gurn.

Had you checking your hat for a price tag, eh, Bill? :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on November 08, 2015, 08:50:53 PM

Quote from: Bogey on November 08, 2015, 06:47:55 AM
You almost went Minnie Pearl on us there, Gurn.

A lot going on. Thanks for putting the trip to London in perspective.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 09, 2015, 04:16:51 AM

Quote from: Old Listener on November 08, 2015, 08:50:53 PM
A lot going on. Thanks for putting the trip to London in perspective.

Thanks, it helped me, too; lots to get a grip on. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 26, 2015, 05:30:36 PM

Finding reliable facts about any music from this time, and Haydn's in particular, has been a challenge which drove me to blogging to begin with. Along with studying and planning the next phase of the Chronology, I have also been working on finishing the 1780's by compiling the decade list, heavily annotated. In addition, I found nice representations of all 3 of the known genuine portraits from this period which still exist. Hope you find it all helpful. :)

Music chronology of the 1780's (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/11/music-by-decade-part-4-the-1780s.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Camphy on November 27, 2015, 12:02:40 PM

Amazon.de has this listed for January:

[asin]B017OK6656[/asin]

Highlights from L'infedelta Delusa & La Vera Costanza

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on November 28, 2015, 03:48:20 PM

Fresh from ionarts:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IQo2cptZrDA/VlpDBOy_45I/AAAAAAAAIw0/bvSpF1fveJw/s640/_Forbes-Graphic-Haenssler-Profil_HAYDN.jpg)

NOV 28, 2015
The Hobbit Returns: Thomas Fey & the Heidelberg
Symphony will finish their Haydn Cycle

It has just been informally announced that Hänssler CLASSIC, which was recently,
partially merged with PROFIL Hänssler (see "Merger Reunites Classical Music Labels
Of Father And Son" on Forbes.com), will continue the wildly imaginative, musically
successful Haydn Symphony cycle that Thomas Fey and the Heidelberger Sinfoniker
had been working on for the last few years. Yay!

Fey (*1960), who has attained the lovingly-meant nickname "The Hobbit" in an
internet forum that teems with appréciateurs for that particular cycle, founded the
orchestra in 1993 and has its roots in an early music ensemble that Fey founded as
a student, several years earlier. Fey, who had studied under Nikolaus Harnoncourt,
is greatly influenced by, but not beholden to, the historically informed performance
ideology or movement. (The orchestra calls itself "historically oriented".)

When their Haydn recording project began shortly after the orchestra assembled, in
1999...

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/11/the-hobbit-returns-thomas-fey.html
(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/11/the-hobbit-returns-thomas-fey.html)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 28, 2015, 03:55:18 PM

Yay, indeed. Thanks for the update, Jens. Keeping my fingers crossed.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on November 28, 2015, 04:26:28 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 28, 2015, 03:55:18 PM
Yay, indeed. Thanks for the update, Jens. Keeping my fingers crossed.

Sarge

It's a real pity that they recorded #99 just before the involuntary break... if it were still on the plate, I think some good lobbying work might have had a slight chance at getting it nicknamed as "the Cat". :-)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 30, 2015, 03:28:20 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on November 28, 2015, 03:48:20 PM
Fresh from ionarts:

(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IQo2cptZrDA/VlpDBOy_45I/AAAAAAAAIw0/bvSpF1fveJw/s640/_Forbes-Graphic-Haenssler-Profil_HAYDN.jpg)

NOV 28, 2015
The Hobbit Returns: Thomas Fey & the Heidelberg
Symphony will finish their Haydn Cycle

It has just been informally announced that Hänssler CLASSIC, which was recently,
partially merged with PROFIL Hänssler (see "Merger Reunites Classical Music Labels
Of Father And Son" on Forbes.com), will continue the wildly imaginative, musically
successful Haydn Symphony cycle that Thomas Fey and the Heidelberger Sinfoniker
had been working on for the last few years. Yay!

Fey (*1960), who has attained the lovingly-meant nickname “The Hobbit” in an
internet forum that teems with appréciateurs for that particular cycle, founded the
orchestra in 1993 and has its roots in an early music ensemble that Fey founded as
a student, several years earlier. Fey, who had studied under Nikolaus Harnoncourt,
is greatly influenced by, but not beholden to, the historically informed performance
ideology or movement. (The orchestra calls itself “historically oriented”.)

When their Haydn recording project began shortly after the orchestra assembled, in
1999...

http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/11/the-hobbit-returns-thomas-fey.html
(http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2015/11/the-hobbit-returns-thomas-fey.html)

Huzzah!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 30, 2015, 10:39:06 AM

recto

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 30, 2015, 10:42:35 AM

. . . e verso.

The designation of the sonatas ("H.20", "H.46", & "H.44") had to have been a slip-up even in that era, I should think. Also "of its time": the need to sell an Adagio as "thought to be inspired by the example of Mozart."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 30, 2015, 11:03:42 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 30, 2015, 10:42:35 AM
. . . e verso.

The designation of the sonatas ("H.20", "H.46", & "H.44") had to have been a slip-up even in that era, I should think. Also "of its time": the need to sell an Adagio as "thought to be inspired by the example of Mozart."

There were still a lot of assumptions being made back then, mainly trying to fit Haydn's works into the Romantic framework they were used to. Of course, Mozart was treated the same. We need some drama, dammit! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 30, 2015, 11:11:53 AM

I know! I don't miss those dark days, at all.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on November 30, 2015, 11:14:26 AM

But the numbers are still the same (confusing as they are especially in these cases), aren't they. Only "H.44" is somewhat unconventional for Hob.XVI: 44

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on November 30, 2015, 11:15:12 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 30, 2015, 11:03:42 AM
There were still a lot of assumptions being made back then, mainly trying to fit Haydn's works into the Romantic framework

Charles Rosen, author of The Classical Style, fitting Haydn into a Romantic framework? Is that an assessment of the recording or just an assumption about anything pre-HIP fetish?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 30, 2015, 11:18:08 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on November 30, 2015, 11:14:26 AM
But the numbers are still the same (confusing as they are especially in these cases), aren't they. Only "H.44" is somewhat unconventional for Hob.XVI: 44

I believe you're right. So, maybe it was an editor's error.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 30, 2015, 11:31:04 AM

Quote from: Daverz on November 30, 2015, 11:15:12 AM
Charles Rosen, author of The Classical Style, fitting Haydn into a Romantic framework? Is that an assessment of the recording or just an assumption about anything pre-HIP fetish?

It isn't an assumption at all. In the 1970's, nearly everyone, including Rosen, believed in a certain playing style. When he talks about style in his book, he is talking about compositional style, not playing style. At that point in time be didn't believe in any other style. In his small part in the book "Haydn Studies I" which dates from around 1975, he is quite stridently anti-HIP. That being the case, the fact that he has trouble hearing the drama of these works while playing a Steinway is not surprising, is it? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 30, 2015, 11:32:50 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on November 30, 2015, 11:14:26 AM
But the numbers are still the same (confusing as they are especially in these cases), aren't they. Only "H.44" is somewhat unconventional for Hob.XVI: 44

I suppose it is unconventional, and so I apologize for myself, since I do it all the time. One tends to assume the 'XVI' since we are talking sonatas...

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 30, 2015, 11:57:50 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 30, 2015, 11:32:50 AM
I suppose it is unconventional, and so I apologize for myself, since I do it all the time. One tends to assume the 'XVI' since we are talking sonatas...

8)

Oh! Is it a sort of "received shorthand," then? I don't mean to play The Stuffy Pedant! 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 30, 2015, 12:10:20 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on November 30, 2015, 11:57:50 AM
Oh! Is it a sort of "received shorthand," then? I don't mean to play The Stuffy Pedant! 8)

I hadn't really thought about it, Karl. I saw H.44 on a disk of sonatas and simply knew without thinking that it was Hob XVI:44. So the long answer to your question is probably 'yes'. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 30, 2015, 12:13:18 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 30, 2015, 12:10:20 PM
I hadn't really thought about it, Karl. I saw H.44 on a disk of sonatas and simply knew without thinking that it was Hob XVI:44. So the long answer to your question is probably 'yes'. :)

I can see that. My double-take was arguably nerdly 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 05, 2015, 08:14:39 AM

London at last! The sheer volume of incoming data on 'Haydn in England' can overwhelm the intrepid blogger. I did make it through January 1791 though... :)

Solid ground, and none too soon! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/12/1791-the-year-part-1-.html)

Have a look. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on December 07, 2015, 06:28:11 PM

Quote from: Antoine Marchand on October 03, 2009, 08:52:30 AM

If you are speaking about Jaap Schröder and the Quartetto Esterházy (Amsterdam) on Seon, I own the disc of the Op. 20 Nos. 2 & 4, my first Haydn on period instruments. That disc was revelatory for me about the relationship between Haydn and HIP performances. Although it was recorded in 1973 the sound is excellent, not just because was entirely remastered (using 20-bit technology), but because Wolf Erichson was (is) a genius.

:)

Going through the SEON box, I am listening to this.
[asin]B0000029VW[/asin]
Seems to be the only Haydn recording in the SEON catalog.

Gordo's description is 109% accurate.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 07, 2015, 06:33:09 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 07, 2015, 06:28:11 PM
Going through the SEON box, I am listening to this.
[asin]B0000029VW[/asin]
Seems to be the only Haydn recording in the SEON catalog.

Gordo's description is 109% accurate.

I am also very much taken with that performance. Without doubt my favorite of those 2 works. I think you are right; the sum total of Haydn/SEON... :(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on December 07, 2015, 06:42:10 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 07, 2015, 06:33:09 PM
I am also very much taken with that performance. Without doubt my favorite of those 2 works. I think you are right; the sum total of Haydn/SEON... :(

8)

They were very unfair to Papa: a slew of JS Bach, a CD shared by CPE and JS Bach, a double CD of CPE for keyboard, this Haydn, a double CD of Boccherini, then a slew of Mozart ( the box is chronological by composer).....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 07, 2015, 06:46:03 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 07, 2015, 06:42:10 PM
They were very unfair to Papa: a slew of JS Bach, a CD shared by CPE and JS Bach, a double CD of CPE for keyboard, this Haydn, a double CD of Boccherini, then a slew of Mozart ( the box is chronological by composer).....

Yes, I suppose I have most or all of the Mozart, haven't really broken any speed records getting the balance. Wolf's later project, Vivarte, is far kinder to my personal taste! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on December 07, 2015, 06:55:57 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 07, 2015, 06:46:03 PM
Yes, I suppose I have most or all of the Mozart, haven't really broken any speed records getting the balance. Wolf's later project, Vivarte, is far kinder to my personal taste! :)

8)

Highlights to date...Kuijkens doing Couperin, Leonhardt playing a bunch of JSB for keyboard, the medieval/early Renaissance stuff. The CPE keyboard CDs are pretty good, too...Leonhardt again on several instruments, including at least two fortepianos.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on December 07, 2015, 11:00:28 PM

One reason is probably that in the early 1970s Haydn was not really considered the domain of a HIP approach. They were still busy enough with music up to Bach and Handel (This does not explain that there are more Mozart recordings from Seon, though.)
A few years later? the Collegium Aureum recorded a bunch of Haydn symphonies and also a complete op.76 (never been on CD).

tbh I was not all that fond of that recording and culled it from my collection; I think it suffers from the "early" HIP malaise of rather raw and scratchy playing. Quatuor Mosaiques may not be the last word in those pieces either but at least they sound quite beautiful

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Camphy on December 08, 2015, 02:11:24 AM

From Hyperion in March:

(http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/thumbs_550/034571281223.png)

http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDA68122

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 08, 2015, 04:18:13 AM

Quote from: Camphy on December 08, 2015, 02:11:24 AM
From Hyperion in March:

(http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/thumbs_550/034571281223.png)

http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/dc.asp?dc=D_CDA68122

Excellent news! They have been touring it, and they recorded it a while ago, but even they didn't know when it was going to be released. I'm delighted, it's my fave! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 08, 2015, 04:20:53 AM

Huzzah!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on December 08, 2015, 05:19:04 AM

Question for you guys. I am looking for Badura-Skoda's Haydn Sonatas--the full 5 disc set, not the recent bit on ARCANA, nor the 6 "lost sonatas". Is it OOP, or does anybody know a reasonably priced way of getting them?
Thanks in advance!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 08, 2015, 05:46:32 AM

Quote from: Mookalafalas on December 08, 2015, 05:19:04 AM
Question for you guys. I am looking for Badura-Skoda's Haydn Sonatas--the full 5 disc set, not the recent bit on ARCANA, nor the 6 "lost sonatas". Is it OOP, or does anybody know a reasonably priced way of getting them?
Thanks in advance!

I'll tell you, Mookie, if there is, I haven't found it in several years of looking. Every now and then they come up on eBay, but I have been outbid even at $40/disk, which is about the most I would pay, I think. My hope is that Arcana/Naive will release them as a box set like they did the Schubert set. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on December 08, 2015, 05:56:09 AM

Quote from: Mookalafalas on December 08, 2015, 05:19:04 AM
Question for you guys. I am looking for Badura-Skoda's Haydn Sonatas--the full 5 disc set, not the recent bit on ARCANA, nor the 6 "lost sonatas". Is it OOP, or does anybody know a reasonably priced way of getting them?
Thanks in advance!

I have only 4: 1. Sturm und Drang, 2. Le style galant, 3. La maturite, 4. L´apogee. Which is the 5th, I wonder?

As for getting them, I can play the Santa Claus and... but hush!, PM me for details. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on December 08, 2015, 06:09:00 AM

Quote from: Florestan on December 08, 2015, 05:56:09 AM
I have only 4: 1. Sturm und Drang, 2. Le style galant, 3. La maturite, 4. L´apogee. Which is the 5th, I wonder?

Probably my mistake. I could swear I saw it listed as five discs, but my memory is shamefully faulty :-[
Anyway, I'll be lookin' for Santa :-*

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 08, 2015, 06:12:53 AM

Quote from: Mookalafalas on December 08, 2015, 06:09:00 AM
Probably my mistake. I could swear I saw it listed as five discs, but my memory is shamefully faulty :-[
Anyway, I'll be lookin' for Santa :-*

It's very easy to confuse them because there are also pictured all the LP releases of 3 sonatas each, and there are far more covers of those. I think 4 is correct though, the LP covers don't have names on them (eg - Le style galant).

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Camphy on December 09, 2015, 04:33:33 AM

Recently released:

[asin]B015RI5R02[/asin]

To be released in January:

[asin]B018UZN9AO[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on December 09, 2015, 04:49:46 AM

Quote from: Camphy on December 09, 2015, 04:33:33 AM
Recently released:

[asin]B015RI5R02[/asin]

To be released in January:

[asin]B018UZN9AO[/asin]

I have the Pinnock and Kussmaul discs but these two look enticing as well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 09, 2015, 05:00:49 AM

Quote from: Camphy on December 09, 2015, 04:33:33 AM
Recently released:

[asin]B015RI5R02[/asin]

To be released in January:

[asin]B018UZN9AO[/asin]

I pre-ordered the first, not released in USA yet. The second isn't listed at Amazon USA yet, but I have been hoping for something from Il Pomo d'Oro that was meant for me, and this looks like it! Thanks for the info, Camphy. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 09, 2015, 05:32:50 AM

Quote from: Camphy on December 09, 2015, 04:33:33 AM
To be released in January:

[asin]B018UZN9AO[/asin]

Goes along with the "violin babes" theme, does it?—a group named Tomato.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 09, 2015, 05:36:51 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on December 09, 2015, 05:32:50 AM
Goes along with the "violin babes" theme, does it?—a group named Tomato.

Actually, I think they are going more for the Golden Apple meaning rather than the more idiomatic one. :) I wonder what is on this disk. I found it on Amazon UK but with no TOC... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Camphy on December 09, 2015, 05:47:14 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 09, 2015, 05:36:51 AM
Actually, I think they are going more for the Golden Apple meaning rather than the more idiomatic one. :) I wonder what is on this disk. I found it on Amazon UK but with no TOC... :-\

8)

Riccardo Minasi's homepage offers some info. This upcoming release features "Violin/Harpsichord/Horn/Concertos". Apparently there are also recordings of Mozart Violin Sonatas and Haydn Piano Trios coming in the near future.

http://www.riccardominasi.com/site/Home.html

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Camphy on December 09, 2015, 06:13:37 AM

Contents translated by Google Translate on Tower.jp:

"Riccardo Minashi, Maksim Emeryanichefu / Haydn: Concertos" [music] Haydn: 1) Violin Concerto in G major, Hob VIIa:. 4, 2) Horn Concerto in D major Hob.VIId: 3, 3) Harpsichord Concerto in G major Hob.XVIII : 4, 4) Symphony No. 83 in G minor No. "hen" Hob.I: 83, 5) Fantasie in C major Hob.XVII: 4, 6) Harpsichord Concerto in D major Hob.XVIII: 11, 7) violin and harpsichord Concerto in F major Hob for XVIII:. 6 [performance] Riccardo Minashi (Violin: 1, 7 / Conductor: 1, 2, 3) Maksim Emeryanichefu (harpsichord: 3, 5, 6, 7 / Conductor: 4, 6 , 7) Johannes Hintertux Holzer (Horn: 2) Il Pomo d'Oro (period instrument orchestra: 1-4, 6, 7) [recording] in February 2014, Italy, Lonigo, Villa San Fermo

http://tower.jp/item/4161767/Haydn-Concertos

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 09, 2015, 06:19:15 AM

Quote from: Camphy on December 09, 2015, 06:13:37 AM
Contents translated by Google Translate on Tower.jp:

"Riccardo Minashi, Maksim Emeryanichefu / Haydn: Concertos" [music] Haydn: 1) Violin Concerto in G major, Hob VIIa:. 4, 2) Horn Concerto in D major Hob.VIId: 3, 3) Harpsichord Concerto in G major Hob.XVIII : 4, 4) Symphony No. 83 in G minor No. "hen" Hob.I: 83, 5) Fantasie in C major Hob.XVII: 4, 6) Harpsichord Concerto in D major Hob.XVIII: 11, 7) violin and harpsichord Concerto in F major Hob for XVIII:. 6 [performance] Riccardo Minashi (Violin: 1, 7 / Conductor: 1, 2, 3) Maksim Emeryanichefu (harpsichord: 3, 5, 6, 7 / Conductor: 4, 6 , 7) Johannes Hintertux Holzer (Horn: 2) Il Pomo d'Oro (period instrument orchestra: 1-4, 6, 7) [recording] in February 2014, Italy, Lonigo, Villa San Fermo

http://tower.jp/item/4161767/Haydn-Concertos

Excellent! Looks like a nice lineup. It shall be mine at the appropriate moment. Much appreciated.

IIRC, the new Haydn 2032 symphonies disk should be along soon. When I have a minute I'll zip over and find out. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on December 09, 2015, 06:21:28 AM

the ensemble is named after Cesti's opera composed for the wedding celebration of Emperor Leopold in 1666.

For whatever reason German language wikipedia does have an entry for them
(but not for the opera)
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Il_pomo_d%E2%80%99oro_%28Ensemble%29
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Il_pomo_d'oro
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Cesti

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Camphy on December 09, 2015, 09:18:55 AM

Lovely reminiscences about John McCabe's recording sessions of Haydn, Grieg and Nielsen, written by his wife Monica:

http://www.gramophone.co.uk/blog/gramophone-guest-blog/remembering-john-mccabes-haydn-grieg-and-nielsen-recording-sessions

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 09, 2015, 10:19:28 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on December 09, 2015, 06:21:28 AM
the ensemble is named after Cesti's opera composed for the wedding celebration of Emperor Leopold in 1666.

Cool, thanks!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 09, 2015, 10:27:51 AM

Quote from: Camphy on December 09, 2015, 09:18:55 AM
Lovely reminiscences about John McCabe's recording sessions of Haydn, Grieg and Nielsen, written by his wife Monica:

http://www.gramophone.co.uk/blog/gramophone-guest-blog/remembering-john-mccabes-haydn-grieg-and-nielsen-recording-sessions

Very nice and interesting too. It was a major breakthrough of the time. It was also MY first recording of all the sonatas, and likely the reason I am so enamored of them today. Thanks!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on December 09, 2015, 10:44:20 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on December 09, 2015, 06:21:28 AM
the ensemble is named after Cesti's opera composed for the wedding celebration of Emperor Leopold in 1666.

Curiously, two days ago I was listening to this excellent disk:

(https://media2.jpc.de/image/w600/front/0/0828021607424.jpg)

Its first track belongs to Cesti's opera Il Pomo d'Oro.

Just for the record: Elizabeth Dobbin is a lovely soprano, superbly accompanied by her partners.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on December 09, 2015, 07:38:59 PM

Quote from: Camphy on December 09, 2015, 05:47:14 AM
Riccardo Minasi's homepage offers some info. This upcoming release features "Violin/Harpsichord/Horn/Concertos". Apparently there are also recordings of Mozart Violin Sonatas and Haydn Piano Trios coming in the near future.

http://www.riccardominasi.com/site/Home.html

They recorded the three most recent installments of violin concertos in the Naive Vivaldi series.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 19, 2015, 02:46:00 PM

Whew! Trying to sort out the sudden mass of data is a double-handful! I think I picked out some interesting things though, have a look. :)

The public side of being a star! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/12/1791-the-year-part-2-the-concert-season.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Camphy on December 21, 2015, 09:39:10 AM

Listed for February on Amazon.de:

[asin]B019648MV4[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 21, 2015, 10:23:35 AM

Quote from: Camphy on December 21, 2015, 09:39:10 AM
Listed for February on Amazon.de:

[asin]B019648MV4[/asin]

I have the first disk in that subset:
[asin]B00E5NXPOG[/asin]

and it is quite fine. At Amazon.com it is listed as being released February 5:

[asin]B019648MV4[/asin]

Apparently we are working our way through the Morning, Noon & Night and Paris Symphonies, as well as the Violin Concertos. When you have a fiddler like Aisslinn Nosky, might as well make the most of it. She's pretty cool! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Camphy on December 21, 2015, 11:22:09 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 21, 2015, 10:23:35 AM
Apparently we are working our way through the Morning, Noon & Night and Paris Symphonies, as well as the Violin Concertos. When you have a fiddler like Aisslinn Nosky, might as well make the most of it. She's pretty cool! :)

8)

Thanks! I remember having seen the earlier release before; I like the concept of combining those symphonies and the violin concertos.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 21, 2015, 12:29:21 PM

Quote from: Camphy on December 21, 2015, 11:22:09 AM
Thanks! I remember having seen the earlier release before; I like the concept of combining those symphonies and the violin concertos.

Me too. It sure works nice on the first one. I went ahead and pre-ordered the second one. Thanks for the notice of it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Camphy on December 22, 2015, 11:51:18 PM

Gurn, I thought I'd post this charming curiosity here; perhaps you've already seen it. To be released in a few days:

(http://i.prs.to/t_400/9120040730529.jpg)

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Orlando%2BRecords/OR0021

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 23, 2015, 04:19:29 AM

Quote from: Camphy on December 22, 2015, 11:51:18 PM
Gurn, I thought I'd post this charming curiosity here; perhaps you've already seen it. To be released in a few days:

(http://i.prs.to/t_400/9120040730529.jpg)

http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Orlando%2BRecords/OR0021

Cool! No, I hadn't seen it (hasn't got stateside yet), it would appear to emulate a turn of the century event. Holzapfel if a superb organist, his complete Haydn Organ Concertos on Brilliant is the best of the lot, IMO. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on December 23, 2015, 10:43:09 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 23, 2015, 04:19:29 AM
Holzapfel if a superb organist, his complete Haydn Organ Concertos on Brilliant is the best of the lot, IMO. :)

+ 1

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on December 23, 2015, 10:53:24 AM

Quote from: Florestan on December 23, 2015, 10:43:09 AM
+ 1

+2

... even if Christine Schornsheim is my favorite choice. :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 23, 2015, 11:53:15 AM

Quote from: Gordo on December 23, 2015, 10:53:24 AM
+2

... even if Christine Schornsheim is my favorite choice. :P

Yes, but only a couple on her set are on organ. The rest are on harpsichord. Plus, Holzapfel has a correctly sized Viennese Church Trio (2 Violins, Cello and Violone) backing him up, very appropriate. I am very fond of Christine though... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on December 23, 2015, 12:16:04 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 23, 2015, 11:53:15 AM
Holzapfel has a correctly sized Viennese Church Trio (2 Violins, Cello and Violone) backing him up, very appropriate.

And a very appropriate organ, too.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on December 23, 2015, 01:27:35 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 23, 2015, 11:53:15 AM
Yes, but only a couple on her set are on organ. The rest are on harpsichord. Plus, Holzapfel has a correctly sized Viennese Church Trio (2 Violins, Cello and Violone) backing him up, very appropriate. I am very fond of Christine though... :)

8)

Yes! Organ, harpsichord and fortepiano. I love this mess! :D

P.S.: They play three as organ concertos (Hob. XVIII: 1, 8 & 10), three as harpsichord concertos (2, 3 & 5) and two for the fortepiano (4 & 11).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 23, 2015, 02:49:17 PM

Quote from: Florestan on December 23, 2015, 12:16:04 PM
And a very appropriate organ, too.

Well, I wouldn't know that, of course... :)

Quote from: Gordo on December 23, 2015, 01:27:35 PM
Yes! Organ, harpsichord and fortepiano. I love this mess! :D

P.S.: They play three as organ concertos (Hob. XVIII: 1, 8 & 10), three as harpsichord concertos (2, 3 & 5) and two for the fortepiano (4 & 11).

I couldn't remember exactly the sequence of them so I avoided specifics. 0:) Nonetheless, an excellent set. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on December 24, 2015, 03:49:32 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 23, 2015, 02:49:17 PM
I couldn't remember exactly the sequence of them so I avoided specifics. 0:) Nonetheless, an excellent set. :)

8)

I was listening to this delightful set just yesterday, and then I refreshed some specifics.

As you, I'm a strong supporter of variety in instrumentation, especially with regards to keyboard music.

What a beautiful, messy and changing age was the second half the XVIII Century in this aspect. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 24, 2015, 06:44:45 AM

Quote from: Gordo on December 24, 2015, 03:49:32 AM
I was listening to this delightful set just yesterday, and then I refreshed some specifics.

As you, I'm a strong supporter of variety in instrumentation, especially with regards to keyboard music.

What a beautiful, messy and changing age was the second half the XVIII Century in this aspect. :)

Yes, if you are one who appreciates a variety of tonal colors in your keyboards, there was no finer time than the 18th century to be a music fan. Not only the great variety of types on instruments, but the individuality of each instrument from its brothers caused by the fact that making them was a craft of small, specialized shops rather than assembly line factories. This holds true even today with replicas, and for the same reasons!

As for Schornsheim, her idea of using different instruments for different music was perfect for someone like Haydn, whose keyboard career stretched out over nearly 50 years. Beghin took it to the nth degree, but Schornsheim started it, AFAIK. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 29, 2015, 09:42:13 AM

Aside from all the activity on the concert scene, we find Haydn being extraordinarily busy behind the scenes, too. Here is a little I found out this week.

Tip of the iceberg! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/12/1791-the-year-part-3-.html)

Check it out!
Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on December 29, 2015, 11:09:12 AM

This thread-topic is over 500 pages - when will it implode? :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 29, 2015, 11:19:24 AM

Quote from: Scion7 on December 29, 2015, 11:09:12 AM
This thread-topic is over 500 pages - when will it implode? :)

No worries, mate. I'll just delete some of those "X word posts" threads to make some room. ::) :D

See you have a birthday coming up soon; Happy Birthday!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on December 29, 2015, 04:18:51 PM

the mighty arms of Atlas ..... hold the ~~heavens~~ thread form the Earth . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 29, 2015, 04:34:52 PM

Quote from: Scion7 on December 29, 2015, 11:09:12 AM
This thread-topic is over 500 pages - when will it implode? :)

OH have faith! Gurn's objective is to match or exceed the known number of Papa Haydn's compositions to the number of pages in this thread - SO, there is a LONG way to go! :laugh: Dave

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 29, 2015, 05:13:21 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on December 29, 2015, 04:34:52 PM
OH have faith! Gurn's objective is to match or exceed the known number of Papa Haydn's compositions to the number of pages in this thread - SO, there is a LONG way to go! :laugh: Dave

Mais oui! The only real rule here is all posts must exceed 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 words and be at least 73 letters. Oh, and be about Haydn, of course. One day we will rule the world! >:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on December 30, 2015, 02:16:28 PM

Straight from the horse's mouth: Paul McCreesh will record an new Haydn "Seasons" with an improved libretto of his own editing/translating.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 30, 2015, 04:34:00 PM

Quote from: jlaurson on December 30, 2015, 02:16:28 PM
Straight from the horse's mouth: Paul McCreesh will record an new Haydn "Seasons" with an improved libretto of his own editing/translating.

Excellent! He wouldn't give anything but vague implications when I asked; my real aim was to get him to consider '7 Last Words' but I don't know... This one will sound great along with his excellent 'Creation' though! Thanks for the good news! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on December 31, 2015, 01:09:43 PM

Looks like February will bring a modern-orchestra Naxos CD of the opera overtures. Details still unclear - I'll post 'em if I find 'em.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 31, 2015, 02:06:57 PM

Quote from: Brian on December 31, 2015, 01:09:43 PM
Looks like February will bring a modern-orchestra Naxos CD of the opera overtures. Details still unclear - I'll post 'em if I find 'em.

Some good music there, much of it never heard by non-fanatics. I have this one on BIS, right now it is the only one available. They didn't talk about it, but as near as I can tell, at least some of them were premiere recordings. I hope people who don't have this on will get the new one, just to have the music!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 31, 2015, 05:00:21 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 31, 2015, 02:06:57 PM
Some good music there, much of it never heard by non-fanatics. I have this one on BIS, right now it is the only one available. They didn't talk about it, but as near as I can tell, at least some of them were premiere recordings. I hope people who don't have this on will get the new one, just to have the music!

8)

The Huss recording is fantastic. I would choose modern over HIP, but the Huss are so good that no other is really needed. But you are right, the music is the main attraction whoever the performers may be.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 02, 2016, 07:34:44 AM

This is probably for Gurn, but maybe others have a view too. So I am thinking (again) of getting the Haydn Songs on Brilliant - the one below:
[asin]B001UNPLI2[/asin]

At about $40, is it worth getting this do you think? The clips sound good, though I wonder if I will enjoy 18 discs of this stuff. That said, I do enjoy songs in languages I don't understand (so this should be easier in that regard). Of course, I wouldn't sit down to listen to it all in one sitting, probably 1/2-1 disc each time. The reason I am stalling - not sure I will love it for that price. Maybe there is a highlights disc that has the best stuff that would be better? I am also a slow goer with these boxes - took me more than a year with the Loewe box. Schubert took years to go through all the Hyperion Schubert discs. On the other hand, some of the music in these Haydn songs seems quite inspired. I keep waffling - maybe I'm just being cheap?!?! On the other hand, once heard, will I ever listen to them again?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 02, 2016, 08:05:58 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 02, 2016, 07:34:44 AM
This is probably for Gurn, but maybe others have a view too. So I am thinking (again) of getting the Haydn Songs on Brilliant - the one below:
[asin]B001UNPLI2[/asin]

At about $40, is it worth getting this do you think? The clips sound good, though I wonder if I will enjoy 18 discs of this stuff. That said, I do enjoy songs in languages I don't understand (so this should be easier in that regard). Of course, I wouldn't sit down to listen to it all in one sitting, probably 1/2-1 disc each time. The reason I am stalling - not sure I will love it for that price. Maybe there is a highlights disc that has the best stuff that would be better? I am also a slow goer with these boxes - took me more than a year with the Loewe box. Schubert took years to go through all the Hyperion Schubert discs. On the other hand, some of the music in these Haydn songs seems quite inspired. I keep waffling - maybe I'm just being cheap?!?! On the other hand, once heard, will I ever listen to them again?

Well, enjoying National songs is a purely personal sort of decision. However, if you think you might, this is as good as you can do. the playing and singing (especially) are first rate. I agree that 18 disks is a big handful, even for people who really like them. It is sort of like the Baryton Trios box; a little baryton goes a long way with most folks.

What I did was get a bunch of single disks that have a good assortment on them. It is hard to rec any to you, since they all use fortepiano, but there are certainly some which use modern piano too, I'm sure. Most of them are coupled with the Canzonets, so if you wanted to get 2 or 3 different ones for an assortment, you would probably end up with more than one version of those. Some of my song recitals with fortepiano are among my most treasured disks though, I must say.

BTW, the originals of those Brilliant disks were, like 4 or 5 disks in a box and you could very likely find them available. I would look for one of those.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 02, 2016, 12:05:56 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 02, 2016, 08:05:58 AM
Well, enjoying National songs is a purely personal sort of decision. However, if you think you might, this is as good as you can do. the playing and singing (especially) are first rate. I agree that 18 disks is a big handful, even for people who really like them. It is sort of like the Baryton Trios box; a little baryton goes a long way with most folks.

What I did was get a bunch of single disks that have a good assortment on them. It is hard to rec any to you, since they all use fortepiano, but there are certainly some which use modern piano too, I'm sure. Most of them are coupled with the Canzonets, so if you wanted to get 2 or 3 different ones for an assortment, you would probably end up with more than one version of those. Some of my song recitals with fortepiano are among my most treasured disks though, I must say.

BTW, the originals of those Brilliant disks were, like 4 or 5 disks in a box and you could very likely find them available. I would look for one of those.

8)

Thanks. I have considered buying smaller volumes within the Brilliant set, but if I ever accumulated much, it would make more sense to go with the whole set, which is at pretty good price. It's a good deal at $2 a disc. I'll let you know how it goes!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 02, 2016, 01:00:43 PM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 02, 2016, 12:05:56 PM
Thanks. I have considered buying smaller volumes within the Brilliant set, but if I ever accumulated much, it would make more sense to go with the whole set, which is at pretty good price. It's a good deal at $2 a disc. I'll let you know how it goes!

Oh, I completely agree; $40 is a freaking bargain! There is another CD in there which has all the lyrics, a very nice idea that I wish purveyors of operas would do with librettos. Then if you wanted to you could print them out, or just read on your computing device. Haydn Trio Eisenstadt for excellent too, I forgot to mention! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on January 02, 2016, 01:29:09 PM

I think I have two of the separate issues, together 5 or 6 discs. Which is more than enough to get a taste/impression of it and it was enough for me ;)

(I am very fond of the Beethoven folksong settings, though, owning both the Archiv complete box (but it's only 6 discs or so) and 3-4 single disc anthologies.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 02, 2016, 01:38:05 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on January 02, 2016, 01:29:09 PM
I think I have two of the separate issues, together 5 or 6 discs. Which is more than enough to get a taste/impression of it and it was enough for me ;)

(I am very fond of the Beethoven folksong settings, though, owning both the Archiv complete box (but it's only 6 discs or so) and 3-4 single disc anthologies.)

That's interesting. I have all those Beethoven's too, got them about 10 years ago. They never hooked me the way the Haydn ones did, in fact, I am not completely sure I ever played the Archiv box all the way through! Which made me a little leery about the Haydn ones when that time arrived.

It was way different with the Haydn's, I enjoyed them right from the start. Not sure why exactly, quite possibly it is because I had grown to like songs a lot more than I used to. Also the fortepiano accompaniment on most of my Haydn disks is much easier on the ear, it doesn't make the singer work so damned hard! Anyway, I plan on pulling out that Beethoven box soon and having another go at it. Maybe I will like it a lot better now.

8)

PS - I listened (for the hell of it) to the Brilliant version of Haydn/Burns' Auld lang syne on New Years Eve. It is actually quite interesting, and certainly isn't done Adagio!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 02, 2016, 02:26:49 PM

It's hard to imagine a situation where a wealthy impresario had a first-class opera all bought and paid for, and a brand-new House for it to open, and in the event, it never happens! Well, it happened in London in 1791...

Just a bit silly, it seems... (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2016/01/1791-the-music-part-1-.html)

Check it out. :)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on January 03, 2016, 12:31:31 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 02, 2016, 01:38:05 PM
That's interesting. I have all those Beethoven's too, got them about 10 years ago. They never hooked me the way the Haydn ones did, in fact, I am not completely sure I ever played the Archiv box all the way through! Which made me a little leery about the Haydn ones when that time arrived.

It was way different with the Haydn's, I enjoyed them right from the start. Not sure why exactly, quite possibly it is because I had grown to like songs a lot more than I used to. Also the fortepiano accompaniment on most of my Haydn disks is much easier on the ear, it

I think the accompaniment is often considerably more involved in the Beethoven settings. But I admittedly know (some of) them much better than the Haydn ones. Still my favorite disc that got me "hooked", is the following:

[asin]B00005NQ9F[/asin]

I find some of these pieces absolutely "haunting" and more convincing than many of Beethoven's original songs (although the latter also contain gems and are comparably underrated and only a few are well known).

With the Haydn settings my impression was that they are generally "lighter" and more cheerful.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 03, 2016, 05:46:10 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on January 03, 2016, 12:31:31 AM
I think the accompaniment is often considerably more involved in the Beethoven settings. But I admittedly know (some of) them much better than the Haydn ones. Still my favorite disc that got me "hooked", is the following:

[asin]B00005NQ9F[/asin]

I find some of these pieces absolutely "haunting" and more convincing than many of Beethoven's original songs (although the latter also contain gems and are comparably underrated and only a few are well known).

With the Haydn settings my impression was that they are generally "lighter" and more cheerful.

Oh, that looks nice, I'll have that one! Nearly all of my Beethoven are on modern instruments.

Well, there are some factors which may have been involved in all that. Of course, the main one was Beethoven was Beethoven and Haydn was Haydn. But beyond that, Haydn met all of these publishers like Whyte and Thomson personally, and very likely they sat down together and played some ideas out, and so he was composing to their taste as well as his own. Beethoven, of course, never did that. IIRC, he had Ries, who lived in London at the time, do whatever business there was to do with Thomson while stayed home and wrote to his own muse. I may have to go back and look at some book or other, but I seem to recall some complaints that he was writing too complicated for the projected audience for the sheet music. Which, of course, is what we like about it today. Irony. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on January 03, 2016, 06:11:04 AM

Quote from: Brian on December 31, 2015, 01:09:43 PM
Looks like February will bring a modern-orchestra Naxos CD of the opera overtures. Details still unclear - I'll post 'em if I find 'em.

Update!

Generous 79:28 playing time with these overtures:
Lo speziale
Acide e Galatea
Le pescatrici
Philemon und Baucis
L'infedelta delusa (what a name!)
Der Gotterath
L'incontro improvviso
Il mondo della luna ("Life on the Moon"!)
L'isola disabitata
La vera costanza ("True George Costanza")
La fedelta premiata
Orlando Paladino
Armida
L'anima del filosofo, ossia Orfeo e Eurydice

Czech Chamber Philharmonic, Pardubice
Michael Halasz

The Manfred Huss CD also includes overtures from non-operas, like The Creation, a couple of overtures which don't have names attached, and one overture that was mostly written by Ignaz Pleyel. This new disc tracks each section of an overture separately, so "L'incontro improvviso" is four tracks.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 03, 2016, 06:52:51 AM

Quote from: Brian on January 03, 2016, 06:11:04 AM
Update!

Generous 79:28 playing time with these overtures:
Lo speziale
Acide e Galatea
Le pescatrici
Philemon und Baucis
L'infedelta delusa (what a name!)
Der Gotterath
L'incontro improvviso
Il mondo della luna ("~~Life~~The World on the Moon"!)
L'isola disabitata
La vera costanza ("True George Costanza")
La fedelta premiata
Orlando Paladino
Armida
L'anima del filosofo, ossia Orfeo e Eurydice

Czech Chamber Philharmonic, Pardubice
Michael Halasz

The Manfred Huss CD also includes overtures from non-operas, like The Creation, a couple of overtures which don't have names attached, and one overture that was mostly written by Ignaz Pleyel. This new disc tracks each section of an overture separately, so "L'incontro improvviso" is four tracks.

Thanks for the info, Brian. Nice list!

Of course, if you want to be picky, the overture for L'anima del filosofo, ossia Orfeo e Euridice
is probably not for that, it is a 1795 piece which was written for a local production which Haydn simply called 'Overture for an English opera', but was actually called 'Windsor Castle', IIRC. Since it has some quotes from O & E in it, it was a natural to use it, although it isn't known if the cart came before the horse or vice-versa. :)

In any case, there is nothing like a good disk of overtures, and that looks like one!

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Camphy on January 03, 2016, 09:10:37 AM

Posted by Todd in the New Releases thread:

Quote from: Todd on January 03, 2016, 09:00:06 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81DGsOjudCL._SX425_.jpg)

On Amazon the release has the following description: "These four symphonies have been specially recorded for the upcoming Decca Classics Haydn: Complete Symphonies, a 36 CD set to be released in 2016. This will be the first Haydn symphony cycle on period instruments."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on January 03, 2016, 09:27:05 AM

Quote from: Camphy on January 03, 2016, 09:10:37 AM
Posted by Todd in the New Releases thread:

On Amazon the release has the following description: "These four symphonies have been specially recorded for the upcoming Decca Classics Haydn: Complete Symphonies, a 36 CD set to be released in 2016. This will be the first Haydn symphony cycle on period instruments."

Wow.... So Decca (L'Oiseau Lyre) aborted the Hogwood cycle 20 years ago on the verge of its completion, only to start all over now? ???

What an incredible bunch of losers.... ::) Yet, I can't say that Hogwood was my absolute dreamed Haydn conductor....

I guess we should count our blessings. Speaking of which - how are Dantone's Haydn credentials? :) I never heard his concerto recordings...

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Camphy on January 03, 2016, 09:34:32 AM

Keep double-posting ;): I hope the Haydn 2032 project won't in any way be harmed by this mega-release.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on January 03, 2016, 09:57:10 AM

Quote from: Camphy on January 03, 2016, 09:10:37 AM
Posted by Todd in the New Releases thread:

On Amazon the release has the following description: "These four symphonies have been specially recorded for the upcoming Decca Classics Haydn: Complete Symphonies, a 36 CD set to be released in 2016. This will be the first Haydn symphony cycle on period instruments."

I ~~think~~ know that's the cycle they'll put together from Hogwood and Bruggen and with these which are, so to say, patching sessions.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Camphy on January 03, 2016, 10:16:11 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on January 03, 2016, 09:57:10 AM
I ~~think~~ know that's the cycle they'll put together from Hogwood and Bruggen and with these which are, so to say, patching sessions.

Thanks for that info, Jens. Wily moves by Decca. I find it hard to disagree with Que's statement about them.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on January 03, 2016, 10:19:52 AM

Quote from: Camphy on January 03, 2016, 10:16:11 AM
Thanks for that info, Jens. Wily moves by Decca. I find it hard to disagree with Que's statement about them.

Not to say the resulting Hogwood/Bruggen/Dantone combo cycle does not sound appealing - it does! (To me.) I wonder how they will choose when faced with a choice of recording between Christopher H. and Frans B.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 03, 2016, 10:20:47 AM

Quote from: Que on January 03, 2016, 09:27:05 AM
Wow.... So Decca (L'Oiseau Lyre) aborted the Hogwood cycle 20 years ago on the verge of its completion, only to start all over now? ???

What an incredible bunch of losers.... ::) Yet, I can't say that Hopgwood was my absolute dreamed Haydn conductor....

I guess we shoul count out blessings. Speaking of which - how are Dantone's Haydn credentials? :) I never heard his concerto recordings...

Q

I am very fond of his keyboard concertos disk, and thrilled with this symphonies release. I shall have it the day it hits the shelf! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 03, 2016, 10:22:30 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on January 03, 2016, 09:57:10 AM
I ~~think~~ know that's the cycle they'll put together from Hogwood and Bruggen and with these which are, so to say, patching sessions.

Freaking amazing! Well, I have all the Hogwood and all the Brüggen, so I guess this will be all I need to do it myself, which is exactly what I would do anyway! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Camphy on January 03, 2016, 10:56:05 AM

Quote from: Brian on January 03, 2016, 10:19:52 AM
Not to say the resulting Hogwood/Bruggen/Dantone combo cycle does not sound appealing - it does! (To me.) I wonder how they will choose when faced with a choice of recording between Christopher H. and Frans B.

Yeah, I guess the combo cycle remains attractive, although I have to say I'd sooner go for the Hogwood box, unless the combo cycle is very cheap (I have the Brüggen set).
In any case, I'm certainly interested in this particular disc featuring symphonies 78-81.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on January 03, 2016, 11:12:19 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on January 03, 2016, 09:57:10 AM
I ~~think~~ know that's the cycle they'll put together from Hogwood and Bruggen and with these which are, so to say, patching sessions.

What? ??? I should have guessed...

Actually, IMO a hotchpotch cycle that is cobbled together is even far worse than doing a entire new ccyle...though the overall quality with these three HIPconductors will be more than decent.

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 03, 2016, 11:50:46 AM

Quote from: Que on January 03, 2016, 11:12:19 AM
What? ??? I should have guessed...

Actually, IMO a hotchpotch cycle that is cobbled together is even far worse than doing a entire new ccyle...though the overall quality with these three HIPconductors will be more than decent.

Q

Yes, but you know, I like the different thoughts and approaches better than an entire cycle taken from just 1 POV. My own 'cycle' is made up of at least 10 different conductors, so this little Double-Decca will fill the final hole, with Jacobs' #80 right between the 2 missing ones! I'm very happy. Although it must be said, I have every PI Haydn symphony recording I know of, so I can do something like that and understand not everyone can. They can do it with Sibelius though... >:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on January 03, 2016, 12:14:30 PM

Quote from: Brian on January 03, 2016, 10:19:52 AM
Not to say the resulting Hogwood/Bruggen/Dantone combo cycle does not sound appealing - it does! (To me.) I wonder how they will choose when faced with a choice of recording between Christopher H. and Frans B.

The simplest thing would be just to go with Brüggen for 82-104 and Hogwood for the earlier ones. Otherwise they would have to do some complicated sorting because the way the Hogwood was originally arranged.

I wonder if Hogwood's 76+77 that were only on that BBC disc will also appear. I guess so, otherwise Dantone would have had to do them as well.

It feels like cheating but I agree that it is not an all that unattractive cycle (except for me, I have all the Brüggen and some of the Hogwood).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on January 03, 2016, 12:26:27 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on January 03, 2016, 12:14:30 PM
The simplest thing would be just to go with Brüggen for 82-104 and Hogwood for the earlier ones. Otherwise they would have to do some complicated sorting because the way the Hogwood was originally arranged.

I wonder if Hogwood's 76+77 that were only on that BBC disc will also appear. I guess so, otherwise Dantone would have had to do them as well.

It feels like cheating but I agree that it is not an all that unattractive cycle (except for me, I have all the Brüggen and some of the Hogwood).

Well, I have all the Hogwood, but little of the Bruggen because I once had the box sent to me... it was returned when I wasn't home for a week or so... and then it was sold out forever. ???

Now what shall I do, if they go with all Hogwood and use Bruggen only for the holes, rather than the other way around? :-[

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 03, 2016, 02:01:48 PM

Quote from: jlaurson on January 03, 2016, 12:26:27 PM
Well, I have all the Hogwood, but little of the Bruggen because I once had the box sent to me... it was returned when I wasn't home for a week or so... and then it was sold out forever. ???

Now what shall I do, if they go with all Hogwood and use Bruggen only for the holes, rather than the other way around? :-[

Perhaps they will choose the Brüggen based on orchestra; some are Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment, others are Orchestra of the 18th Century. I can't present a list of which is which at this moment, but it may break into some sort of logical order versus the Hogwood's.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 03, 2016, 02:06:54 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 03, 2016, 02:01:48 PM
Perhaps they will choose the Brüggen based on orchestra; some are Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment, others are Orchestra of the 18th Century. I can't present a list of which is which at this moment, but it may break into some sort of logical order versus the Hogwood's.

8)

Oh yes, I see now, that will almost certainly be it. The OEC begin with the Paris symphonies on through the end, while the OAE are the S & D's through #65. I am virtually positive this will be the scheme. Too bad, Hogwood's 94 & 100 are excellent! :(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on January 04, 2016, 03:25:13 AM

If we're talking about the Hogwood L'oiseau-Lyre box that is on my shopping list, I might well be very interested in something that plugs gaps, particularly in that numbering range just before the Paris symphonies.

It's always puzzled me a little that it's not easy to get 76-78 or 79-81 as a group, given that they were written as groups.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on January 04, 2016, 03:45:26 AM

yes, they are among the most neglected Haydn pieces (considering them being mature symphonies). Only Goodman has done 76-78 on one disc, I think. (Not sure in what form the Fischer recordings appeared originally.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on January 06, 2016, 12:19:50 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on January 04, 2016, 03:45:26 AM
yes, they are among the most neglected Haydn pieces (considering them being mature symphonies). Only Goodman has done 76-78 on one disc, I think. (Not sure in what form the Fischer recordings appeared originally.)

I believe the Fischer 76,77 and 78 were first released in a 4 or 5 CD set by Nimbus.

I like the Goodman performances of 76-78 (and the Hogwood 76 and 77 on a BBC CD) but the Fischer recordings are my go-to choices most of the time.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on January 06, 2016, 11:14:06 PM

76-78 are among Fischer's best work. I seem to recall, probably also 70 and 74. Goodman has no trumpets in some of them but otherwise 70-78 are well served if one has Goodman and Fischer. But Goodman never got around to 79-81.

Overall, one can understand that they are in the shadow of the Paris set. But again, some other pieces who by historical accident received nicknames (like 69 or 73) are comparably better served without being more accomplished than 76-81.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 10, 2016, 08:02:46 AM

Well, poor me; I've had to spend the weekend listening to Haydn's first 2 London symphonies! Somehow I managed to pull through, here's what I found out.

A pretty fine start! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2016/01/1791-the-music-part-2-.html)

See if you agree. :)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 10, 2016, 08:20:50 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on January 04, 2016, 03:45:26 AMOnly Goodman has done 76-78 on one disc, I think. (Not sure in what form the Fischer recordings appeared originally.)

Quote from: Old Listener on January 06, 2016, 12:19:50 PM
I believe the Fischer 76,77 and 78 were first released in a 4 or 5 CD set by Nimbus.

Fischer's Nimbus box (volume 5) has them programmed perfectly: 76-78 on disc 3 and 79-81 on disc 4.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on January 10, 2016, 12:52:56 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 10, 2016, 08:02:46 AM
Well, poor me; I've had to spend the weekend listening to Haydn's first 2 London symphonies! Somehow I managed to pull through, here's what I found out.

A pretty fine start! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2016/01/1791-the-music-part-2-.html)

See if you agree. :)

Thanks,
8)

In my head, no.102 gets labelled "Real Miracle". Not that in any case it actually has something to do with the music.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 10, 2016, 01:52:44 PM

Quote from: orfeo on January 10, 2016, 12:52:56 PM
In my head, no.102 gets labelled "Real Miracle". Not that in any case it actually has something to do with the music.

I've always thought #102 was a brilliant symphony, one of those which people rarely mention among its neighbors. Of course, 96 is one which seems to rarely get mentioned at all. I guess it is hard to look past our favorites sometimes. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 12, 2016, 06:25:28 AM

Celebrating today's arrival of this box by going straight to "Papa" (CD 2). Relying on Truls Mørk to rock these.

[asin]B00D7D3OIM[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on January 12, 2016, 06:37:54 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 10, 2016, 01:52:44 PM
I've always thought #102 was a brilliant symphony, one of those which people rarely mention among its neighbors. Of course, 96 is one which seems to rarely get mentioned at all. I guess it is hard to look past our favorites sometimes. :)

I would have guessed that among the "nameless" London symphonies 95, 98 and 102 were somewhat more famous than 93, 96 (the name is not so commonly known, I think), 97 and 99; in any case even the nameless London symphonies are all reasonably well known and frequently played/recorded.
Tbh I do think that 96 is the slightest of all the London set and that Haydn was somewhat testing the ground with a fairly short and not too involved piece but that does not mean that it is a weak piece.
102, on the other hand, is clearly on my short list of favorite symphonies, not only restricted to Haydn...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 12, 2016, 07:01:54 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on January 12, 2016, 06:37:54 AM
I would have guessed that among the "nameless" London symphonies 95, 98 and 102 were somewhat more famous than 93, 96 (the name is not so commonly known, I think), 97 and 99; in any case even the nameless London symphonies are all reasonably well known and frequently played/recorded.
Tbh I do think that 96 is the slightest of all the London set and that Haydn was somewhat testing the ground with a fairly short and not too involved piece but that does not mean that it is a weak piece.
102, on the other hand, is clearly on my short list of favorite symphonies, not only restricted to Haydn...

Well, it is difficulty to tell, really. It is often the case that cycles are recorded, so counting the number of recordings can be deceptive. That said, 97, 93, 98, 99 & 95 are all hovering around 40 available recordings (in the US), while 94 leads the way with 90, and 100-104 are all at least ranging from 65-76, with the exception of #102 at 55.

But if you read a lot of posts, you find certain ones crop up much more frequently than others, and of those, 93, 95, 96 & 97 are the least mentioned. Perhaps they ARE less interesting, I don't know. It is one of those cases where one can say that, and then sit down with no other intention than to seriously listen to something like #95 or 96, and come away with a realization that they are some damned fine symphonies in their own right!

I like 102 a lot myself. Just sayin'... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on January 12, 2016, 08:50:17 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 12, 2016, 06:25:28 AM
Celebrating today's arrival of this box by going straight to "Papa" (CD 2). Relying on Truls Mørk to rock these.

[asin]B00D7D3OIM[/asin]

I hope he does, Karl, though I have to say he did not rock in his Rachmaninoff cello sonata recording with Thibaudet.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 12, 2016, 11:59:49 AM

Quote from: George on January 12, 2016, 08:50:17 AM
I hope he does, Karl, though I have to say he did not rock in his Rachmaninoff cello sonata recording with Thibaudet.

Bad luck with the Rakhmaninov, George! I find the Haydn very satisfactory.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 13, 2016, 06:12:25 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 10, 2016, 08:02:46 AM
A pretty fine start! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2016/01/1791-the-music-part-2-.html)

Another good read. Thanks, Gurn. Listening to 96 now.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 13, 2016, 06:17:33 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 13, 2016, 06:12:25 AM
Another good read. Thanks, Gurn. Listening to 96 now.

Sarge

Thanks, Sarge. 96 grew in my estimation during that writing, I love it when that happens!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 13, 2016, 06:25:59 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 13, 2016, 06:17:33 AM
Thanks, Sarge. 96 grew in my estimation during that writing, I love it when that happens!

8)

Seems to have grown in my estimation after reading your essay! :D But seriously! I don't think I've ever enjoyed it so much. It wasn't previously on my radar as one of my favorite Londons. That seems to be changing.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 13, 2016, 06:40:39 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 13, 2016, 06:25:59 AM
Seems to have grown in my estimation after reading your essay! :D But seriously! I don't think I've ever enjoyed it so much. It wasn't previously on my radar as one of my favorite Londons. That seems to be changing.

Sarge

Wunderbar! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 13, 2016, 06:57:05 AM

I love dis Haus!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Camphy on January 13, 2016, 09:22:51 AM

Apparently released in France in November:

(http://i76.fastpic.ru/big/2015/1214/41/c9da3d829fc7c79f5bd59a9a21d29b41.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Chronochromie on January 13, 2016, 10:33:06 AM

Best Haydn opera to start with and favorite CD recordings? I was thinking of the Dorati/Lausanne Il mondo della luna but wanted to see what Haydn cognoscenti thought.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 13, 2016, 10:45:43 AM

Quote from: Camphy on January 13, 2016, 09:22:51 AM
Apparently released in France in November:

(http://i76.fastpic.ru/big/2015/1214/41/c9da3d829fc7c79f5bd59a9a21d29b41.jpg)

Note to Sarge: don´t walk, run! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 13, 2016, 10:51:30 AM

Quote from: Chronochromie on January 13, 2016, 10:33:06 AM
Best Haydn opera to start with and favorite CD recordings? I was thinking of the Dorati/Lausanne Il mondo della luna but wanted to see what Haydn cognoscenti thought.

My favorite is La fedelta premiata with Dorati / Lausanne & Ileana Cotrubas, Frederica von Stade, Lucia Valentini Terrani, Luigi Alva etc.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg903368.html#msg903368 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg903368.html#msg903368)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 13, 2016, 10:54:51 AM

Quote from: Chronochromie on January 13, 2016, 10:33:06 AM
Best Haydn opera to start with and favorite CD recordings? I was thinking of the Dorati/Lausanne Il mondo della luna but wanted to see what Haydn cognoscenti thought.

For me, Orlando paladino and Armida / Harnoncourt . Then L'anima del filosofo, ossia Orfeo ed Euridice / Hogwood. The last two both feature Bartoli, who is excellent in Haydn.

As far as it goes, there sure isn't anything wrong with that Il mondo della Luna either! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 13, 2016, 10:55:57 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 13, 2016, 10:51:30 AM
My favorite is La fedelta premiata with Dorati / Lausanne & Ileana Cotrubas, Frederica von Stade, Lucia Valentini Terrani, Luigi Alva etc.

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg903368.html#msg903368 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,54.msg903368.html#msg903368)

Another gem. Since this is the only recording, there is no contest about which performance! Some really nice arias in this one too!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Chronochromie on January 13, 2016, 11:31:22 AM

Thank you both, I think I'll start with Orlando Paladino.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 13, 2016, 11:50:47 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 13, 2016, 10:45:43 AM
Note to Sarge: don´t walk, run! :)

I think this is why amw has us on her ignore list :D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on January 13, 2016, 11:56:21 AM

Quote from: Chronochromie on January 13, 2016, 10:33:06 AM
Best Haydn opera to start with and favorite CD recordings? I was thinking of the Dorati/Lausanne Il mondo della luna but wanted to see what Haydn cognoscenti thought.

This would be my pick. The three women (Von Stade/Auger/Mathis) are outstanding.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on January 13, 2016, 12:07:46 PM

Note that "Orlando Paladino" is a farcical parody of opera seria... even less consistent or "logical" than most other operas... (It's the only Haydn opera I ever saw on stage and I bought Harnoncourt's recording but I am not sure if I listened to it more than once afterwards.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 13, 2016, 12:37:42 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on January 13, 2016, 12:07:46 PM
Note that "Orlando Paladino" is a farcical parody of opera seria... even less consistent or "logical" than most other operas... (It's the only Haydn opera I ever saw on stage and I bought Harnoncourt's recording but I am not sure if I listened to it more than once afterwards.)

What I saw though, which I have the DVD of, is Regietheater foolishness. It is by Jacobs as opposed to Harnoncourt, but if Harnoncourt uses the same sort of ideas, then I am pleased to have only the CD soundtrack, which you can't tell to be stupid. The original staging of OP was based on the Ariosto epic poem, which certainly had its own built-in send up of chivalry, but was not a farce nor meant to be.

Orlando P (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/01/1782-the-music-part-4-.html)

The Ariosto original is a masterpiece which was popular for centuries. The opera, obviously, only sets a small part of the whole thing, else it would last for days! Nothing wrong with intelligent comedy, but it shouldn't be slapstick.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 14, 2016, 12:25:46 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 13, 2016, 11:50:47 AM
I think this is why amw has us on her ignore list :D

;D

You mean amw is a woman? ???

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on January 14, 2016, 12:34:37 AM

To clarify, I have not seen the Harnoncourt production on stage or DVD (I only have the CD) but a local/provincial one in Germany that used some farcical things in staging (it was very entertaining altogether, though).

But if you compare Haydn's opera to the obviously serious treatments of related material in e.g. Handel's "Orlando" or "Alcina", the farcical elements are present in the libretto and music, e.g. Rodomonte.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 14, 2016, 03:18:00 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 13, 2016, 12:37:42 PM
Nothing wrong with intelligent comedy, but it shouldn't be slapstick.

8)

http://www.youtube.com/v/E33qzW4Qvr8

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 14, 2016, 04:44:54 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on January 14, 2016, 12:34:37 AM
To clarify, I have not seen the Harnoncourt production on stage or DVD (I only have the CD) but a local/provincial one in Germany that used some farcical things in staging (it was very entertaining altogether, though).

But if you compare Haydn's opera to the obviously serious treatments of related material in e.g. Handel's "Orlando" or "Alcina", the farcical elements are present in the libretto and music, e.g. Rodomonte.

Ah, I thought perhaps you had seen something like the Jacobs Orlando, which is ludicrous, although with a great soundtrack which I am trying to extract from the DVD to FLAC. It ruined the damned thing for me. Harnoncourt did a Il Mondo... which was along the same lines.

But yes, I agree, and if you are going to present farcical possibilities to someone like Haydn, it would be impossible for him to ignore. BUt the original Ariosto poem was the source of it, rather than Haydn's librettist. You should read some of it, it's a hoot! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 14, 2016, 04:45:30 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on January 14, 2016, 03:18:00 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/E33qzW4Qvr8

Well, thank god there is no soprano part in there! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 15, 2016, 05:32:04 PM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VenlXM6PL._SY300_QL70_FMwebp_.jpg)
Listening to this new arrival.
The cover is slightly misleading. The bulk of the CD is Beethoven, eight songs in addition to Ferne Geliebte. Mozart has two songs in addition to the Masonic Cantata. Haydn himself is represented by the first three tracks
She never told her love. Hob. XXXVIa:34 sets a short passage from Twelfth Night.
Hark! What I tell to thee Hob. XXXVIa:41 sets a poem by Anne Hunter
Antwort auf die Frage eines Madchen XXXVIa:46 sets an anonymous German poem.

Fortepiano is a c.1820 Rosenberger, Tuning A=430 unequal temperament.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 17, 2016, 01:35:06 PM

Found this today at Barnes and Noble
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/717eaELTjnL._SX522_.jpg)
Relevance : lead off work is Hob. VIIb.1, the concerto in C Major.
Good PI performance.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 17, 2016, 02:28:53 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 17, 2016, 01:35:06 PM
Found this today at Barnes and Noble
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/717eaELTjnL._SX522_.jpg)
Relevance : lead off work is Hob. VIIb.1, the concerto in C Major.
Good PI performance.

Interesting, he is new to me, although we have seen the band, just recently. Nice lineup, although I don't know Graziani, the others are all good. :)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 17, 2016, 02:32:59 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 17, 2016, 02:28:53 PM
Interesting, he is new to me, although we have seen the band, just recently. Nice lineup, although I don't know Graziani, the others are all good. :)

Thanks!
8)

He is young, early twenties. The Graziani is labelled a world premier recording.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 17, 2016, 02:34:06 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 17, 2016, 02:32:59 PM
He is young, early twenties. The Graziani is labelled a world premier recording.

Ah, that explains everything, and quite neatly too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on January 18, 2016, 10:00:42 AM

Papa Haydn might have had to use the teaching-ruler on that jumping-bean upstart. SWWAAATTTT! "Show some decorum, young one."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 18, 2016, 10:13:30 AM

Quote from: Scion7 on January 18, 2016, 10:00:42 AM
Papa Haydn might have had to use the teaching-ruler on that jumping-bean upstart. SWWAAATTTT! "Show some decorum, young one."

:D

A proper cellist has his feet on the floor at all times... >:(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 19, 2016, 04:39:01 PM

The symphonies were easy to deal with compared to the rest of the music of 1791! It just could get confusing, I needed to get a Handel on it all! :)

Notturnos? Why not? (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2016/01/1791-the-music-part-3-.html)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 24, 2016, 11:07:40 AM

I've always felt that Haydn's Doctorate was somehow underrated as the accomplishment it really was. So I looked at it this week, see what I came up with. :)

Dr. Haydn, I presume? (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2016/01/1791-the-year-part-4-.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 25, 2016, 07:01:16 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 24, 2016, 11:07:40 AM
I've always felt that Haydn's Doctorate was somehow underrated as the accomplishment it really was. So I looked at it this week, see what I came up with. :)

Dr. Haydn, I presume? (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2016/01/1791-the-year-part-4-.html)

Thanks!
8)

Looking forward to this, when the day's dust has settled :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 01, 2016, 06:26:44 PM

After the paucity of information about Haydn's earlier life, it is stunning in its way to see so much accounted for. I couldn't fit it all into one essay! Have a look at some of the things I found this time!

Mad dogs and Englishmen?? (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2016/02/1791-the-year-part-5-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 06, 2016, 06:43:36 PM

The end of 1791 brought Haydn to new heights of social success, but meanwhile, back in Vienna, a great tragedy was playing itself out. See what I found this time.

Posterity will not see such a talent again in 100 years (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2016/02/1791-the-year-part-6.html)

Check it out!
Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on February 07, 2016, 05:19:19 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 24, 2016, 11:07:40 AM
I've always felt that Haydn's Doctorate was somehow underrated as the accomplishment it really was. So I looked at it this week, see what I came up with. :)

Dr. Haydn, I presume? (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2016/01/1791-the-year-part-4-.html)

I knew he received a doctorate from Oxford but had never before read the details. Most interesting, Gurn. Thanks. Listening to you know what as a consequence ;)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 07, 2016, 05:29:19 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on February 07, 2016, 05:19:19 AM
I knew he received a doctorate from Oxford but had never before read the details. Most interesting, Gurn. Thanks. Listening to you know what as a consequence ;)

Sarge

Thanks, Sarge, glad you liked it. That was one I enjoyed writing more than most. Not just for the honor involved, but because I got to learn something about a fairly obscure subject. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Camphy on February 07, 2016, 08:14:40 AM

During a couple of weeks available for online listening:

(http://i.prs.to/t_300/erato2564605204.jpg)

http://www.radio4.nl/plaatpaal/506/haydn-il-pomo-doro-

Well, only the second disc, it seems; i.e. Symphony no. 83 "La Poule", Keyboard Fantasy in C Major, Keyboard Concerto no. 11 & Keyboard Concerto no. 6 with violin and strings.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 07, 2016, 08:30:08 AM

Quote from: Camphy on February 07, 2016, 08:14:40 AM
During a couple of weeks available for online listening:

(http://i.prs.to/t_300/erato2564605204.jpg)

http://www.radio4.nl/plaatpaal/506/haydn-il-pomo-doro-

Well, only the second disc, it seems; i.e. Symphony no. 83 "La Poule", Keyboard Fantasy in C Major, Keyboard Concerto no. 11 & Keyboard Concerto no. 6 with violin and strings.

And your opinion was... ? ??

I need to find and order it now? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Camphy on February 07, 2016, 08:36:37 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 07, 2016, 08:30:08 AM
And your opinion was... ? ??

I need to find and order it now? :)

8)

Weren't you already interested in it, Gurn? You ARE able to access the site, aren't you? I've only listened to the Keyboard Fantasy so far; will listen to more soon.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 07, 2016, 08:44:47 AM

Quote from: Camphy on February 07, 2016, 08:36:37 AM
Weren't you already interested in it, Gurn? You ARE able to access the site, aren't you? I've only listened to the Keyboard Fantasy so far; will listen to more soon.

Yes, when you posted it some time ago. You hadn't heard it yet. The only place I've found so far which actually has the physical media is Presto, which ordering from Europe isn't my first choice. Otherwise, no, I don't stream music, my satellite broadband doesn't like it, so I wait till I can find the disks somewhere. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Camphy on February 07, 2016, 08:53:42 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 07, 2016, 08:44:47 AM
Yes, when you posted it some time ago. You hadn't heard it yet. The only place I've found so far which actually has the physical media is Presto, which ordering from Europe isn't my first choice. Otherwise, no, I don't stream music, my satellite broadband doesn't like it, so I wait till I can find the disks somewhere. :)

8)

Ah, I didn't think of that; I'll try to post something when I've listened to it. The harpsichord in the Keyboard Fantasy sounded excellent. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 07, 2016, 09:06:27 AM

Quote from: Camphy on February 07, 2016, 08:53:42 AM
Ah, I didn't think of that; I'll try to post something when I've listened to it. The harpsichord in the Keyboard Fantasy sounded excellent. :)

Cool. There weren't a lot of harpsichords still around by 1789, but certainly there were some, I like the idea of some later works on one. I'm looking forward to picking this up. I was surprised Amazon UK didn't have it (except as downloads). :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on February 09, 2016, 01:58:52 PM

Quote from: Camphy on February 07, 2016, 08:53:42 AM
Ah, I didn't think of that; I'll try to post something when I've listened to it. The harpsichord in the Keyboard Fantasy sounded excellent. :)

The harpsichord has a nice tone, but I wonder about the tuning. Is it supposed to sound like that (a la H17:1 per Gurn's comments)?

I thought the symphony sounded pretty good, also with some shaky intonation but less bothersome here. It is played for intensity and tension, not beauty or thrills, and is not for PI skeptics. I wish I could compare it to Harnoncourt but H isn't on spotify and my CDs are boxed up. Anyway, I expect Gurn will like it. I like it, but probably not enough to buy it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Camphy on February 13, 2016, 07:24:35 AM

(https://media1.jpc.de/image/w440/front/0/0028947896043.jpg)

Delivery by JPC estimated at four weeks.

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/joseph-haydn-symphonien-nr-1-104/hnum/1407818

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2016, 08:06:50 AM

Quote from: Camphy on February 13, 2016, 07:24:35 AM
(https://media1.jpc.de/image/w440/front/0/0028947896043.jpg)

Delivery by JPC estimated at four weeks.

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/joseph-haydn-symphonien-nr-1-104/hnum/1407818

Ah, good news! As I type this, I am listening to the linchpin of the group, which arrived in my mailbox yesterday afternoon (that can't be a coincidence...) :

So far, so good, very enjoyable sound and tempi. They are a bit faster than some, but when they change pace, it is more dramatically different (as in the 2nd mvmt of #80). If you are really familiar with these works (seriously though, is anyone?) you will say "that's pretty different", but I think this is the point. It is an interesting expression, really. Certainly it bears much more listening. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Camphy on February 13, 2016, 08:24:01 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2016, 08:06:50 AM
Ah, good news! As I type this, I am listening to the linchpin of the group, which arrived in my mailbox yesterday afternoon (that can't be a coincidence...) :

So far, so good, very enjoyable sound and tempi. They are a bit faster than some, but when they change pace, it is more dramatically different (as in the 2nd mvmt of #80). If you are really familiar with these works (seriously though, is anyone?) you will say "that's pretty different", but I think this is the point. It is an interesting expression, really. Certainly it bears much more listening. :)

8)

Thanks for your comments! I found that recording this afternoon in a local music store and bought it, as I've no intention to acquire the box set. Although the latter does tempt me, I must say.
Not really familiar with these four symphonies; I didn't own any recording of them, but there's a performance of #80 on YouTube by Les Arts Florissants under Jonathan Cohen which I liked. Very much looking forward to listen to this new recording. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on February 13, 2016, 08:28:52 AM

Yes, I will eventually get the Dantone twofer. Although I am rather pissed that they did not fill it up with the introuvable Hogwood 76+77 (should fit, Goodman has 76-78 on one disc). There is no way I am buying that big box as I have all the Brüggen and about a third of the Hogwood.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2016, 09:21:23 AM

Quote from: Camphy on February 13, 2016, 08:24:01 AM
Thanks for your comments! I found that recording this afternoon in a local music store and bought it, as I've no intention to acquire the box set. Although the latter does tempt me, I must say.
Not really familiar with these four symphonies; I didn't own any recording of them, but there's a performance of #80 on YouTube by Les Arts Florissants under Jonathan Cohen which I liked. Very much looking forward to listen to this new recording. :)

These (including 76 & 77) are the very first works which Haydn wrote for public sale, in 1781 & 84. In many ways they preview the Paris Symphonies of 1785-86, but they do mark a clear line against the ones which preceded them. There is no more use of tunes written for other purposes (opera and show tunes) which marked the works between Sturm und Drang and Paris. In my mind, there is a clear idea here which Haydn had, something which really seems to piss off the traditionalist musicologists like Robbins-Landon. In the minor key works, at least beginning with #80 and including #83 and #95, he has developed the habit in first movements of building up a lot of minor key associated bluster, then totally defusing it with a second idea which is totally ridiculous, like a Austrian Ländler dance or something similar, to take the wind out of their sails, so to speak. R-L hates it, I find it hilarious, and quintessentially Haydnish. Listen to the first movement of #80 and see what I mean. :)

I was trying to infer the contents of the box from the barren listing at jpc. I seem to see they have skipped over the Sinfonia concertante, and instead, they have put in three of the Salomon transcriptions for chamber group, since there is a string quartet, and Hogwood on the fortepiano, although no flutist is mentioned. Interesting idea. No matter what possible combination they come up with it won't affect me; I have all of it! :) 80€ is a pretty good price for 35 disks, I must say. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2016, 09:24:50 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on February 13, 2016, 08:28:52 AM
Yes, I will eventually get the Dantone twofer. Although I am rather pissed that they did not fill it up with the introuvable Hogwood 76+77 (should fit, Goodman has 76-78 on one disc). There is no way I am buying that big box as I have all the Brüggen and about a third of the Hogwood.

You are quite right about that. The 2 disks are ~54 mins each, and the Hogwood 76-77 is getting harder to find in its BBC configuration. I told people this quite a while ago, one should get this disk as soon as possible, since I think it will disappear when current stocks are depleted. I bought it 3 years ago brand new for $5 US, which will be a bargain to envy some day when one can only get it by buying this Big Box.

I am really enjoying the Dantone right now, BTW... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on February 13, 2016, 11:08:28 PM

I saw the BBC 76/77 once from a seller at amazon.de marketplace but it was more or less full price (13 EUR or so) and I didn't want to pay that. I think both Goodman and Fischer do a very good job with 76-78, so it's not so bad to be content with them.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 14, 2016, 07:37:27 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on February 13, 2016, 11:08:28 PM
I saw the BBC 76/77 once from a seller at amazon.de marketplace but it was more or less full price (13 EUR or so) and I didn't want to pay that. I think both Goodman and Fischer do a very good job with 76-78, so it's not so bad to be content with them.

[asin]B000IJS0U0[/asin]

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81SxaSpYeoL._SL1452_.jpg)

Decca's failure to include it in the single box reissue last year only made things worse. As you can see, new ones are up to nearly $40 US, and used are going for 3X what I paid 3-4 years ago. Having been following the used CD market for many years now, I fell safe in saying that in a year, these prices will be considered a bargain too. :-\

That said, before I got this disk, I never considered myself impoverished having just Goodman (and Fischer), both of them are fine realizations which I have greatly enjoyed for a long time. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on February 19, 2016, 09:55:43 AM

Did Haydn really say "I compose music so that the weary and worn, or the man burdened with affairs, may enjoy a few moments of solace and refreshment. I know that God has bestowed a talent upon me, and I thank Him for it. I think I have done my duty and been of use in my generation by my works. Let others do the same"?

http://www.yourclassical.org/programs/composers-datebook/episodes/2016/02/19

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 19, 2016, 09:59:40 AM

(Only) parenthetically . . . .

QuoteJoshua: Shakespeare never said that.
Mrs Lampert: How do you know?
Joshua: It's terrible. You just made it up.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 19, 2016, 10:14:50 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on February 19, 2016, 09:55:43 AM
Did Haydn really say "I compose music so that the weary and worn, or the man burdened with affairs, may enjoy a few moments of solace and refreshment. I know that God has bestowed a talent upon me, and I thank Him for it. I think I have done my duty and been of use in my generation by my works. Let others do the same"?

http://www.yourclassical.org/programs/composers-datebook/episodes/2016/02/19

Probably not. If so, I have never seen the entire quote. He did say to Griesinger (in 1804) "I did my duty and I was useful to the world", but I don't know the entire context of the quote. It sounds rather more like someone trying to put extra words in his mouth, but you never know, maybe as an old guy he got more uncharacteristically sentimental than I would have thought. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 20, 2016, 06:46:14 PM

I think it is interesting how The Professional Concert could bring in a composer/conductor to be a legitimate threat to Haydn, yet today, there are many who have never heard of him! I found out a few things about the Haydn/Pleyel relationship though, if you would like to check it out.

Frenemies isn't so modern a concept (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2016/02/1792-the-year-part-1-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 23, 2016, 01:30:22 AM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GfKrZLpYL.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51RCt1rsp2L.jpg)

Was Beethoven familiar with the A major divertimento? The main theme of the Allegro from Op. 5 / 1 is strikingly similar to Haydn´s Largo.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 26, 2016, 11:06:49 AM

Bought today, looking very much forward to the mail arriving... :)

Released today in USA. I really enjoyed the first disk in this series, they are already touring what will be disk 3.

[asin]B019648MV4[/asin]

And below, Presto is offering this for ~$15.50 delivered price to USA! Pre-release price at Amazon is $21.75, and it is still a week away. At Presto's delivery times, I should have it in hand about the same time, and at a much better price!

A good day for HIP/PI Haydnistos! :)
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 26, 2016, 03:46:26 PM

Well, I was not sure that this series would be continued - the recording date on Op. 33 was 2012, and just checking the Hyperion website, the Op. 50 date is 2014, SO might this year marked yet another continuation? I've been enjoying this group and although I have multiple recordings of most of Haydn's SQs, I believe the Nomos Quartett is my only other set of Op. 50 (oops, except for the Buchberger box) - looking forward to this release. Dave :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81P77aqY4yL._SL1500_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81Nw3BQGN3L._SL1275_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 26, 2016, 04:08:58 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 26, 2016, 03:46:26 PM
Well, I was not sure that this series would be continued - the recording date on Op. 33 was 2012, and just checking the Hyperion website, the Op. 50 date is 2014, SO might this year marked yet another continuation? I've been enjoying this group and although I have multiple recordings of most of Haydn's SQs, I believe the Nomos Quartett is my only other set of Op. 50 (oops, except for the Buchberger box) - looking forward to this release. Dave :)

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81P77aqY4yL._SL1500_.jpg) (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81Nw3BQGN3L._SL1275_.jpg)

I have been in regular contact with the first violin and viola player of this group, and they are quite confident of moving on. They are just in no rush to do it. They tour all these for a year before recording, and Hyperion seems in no rush to get them to market. I noticed with Op 33 that it was released in Europe at least 6 months before USA, which I find mysterious. Presto's price of 12.75 for 2 disc set is hard to beat though. I'm really looking forward to it too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on February 26, 2016, 07:10:42 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 26, 2016, 04:08:58 PM
I have been in regular contact with the first violin and viola player of this group, and they are quite confident of moving on. They are just in no rush to do it. They tour all these for a year before recording, and Hyperion seems in no rush to get them to market. I noticed with Op 33 that it was released in Europe at least 6 months before USA, which I find mysterious. Presto's price of 12.75 for 2 disc set is hard to beat though. I'm really looking forward to it too. :)

Thanks Gurn for the 'inside' information - anxious to acquire this new set and will look for the best deal - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2016, 02:05:25 PM

I am often asked to recommend books, and I can't blame anyone for not wanting to spend big bucks on nothing more than the blurb on Amazon. I have had a couple of previous essays on this subject, and they have been read surprisingly frequently, so this week I picked out a few more books and gave some vital information about them. Not reviews, but at least enough info to answer a few questions. I only ever write about things I like, so you can take it as given that I think these are pretty darn good! :)

Building your library (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2016/02/building-a-library-part-3-more-anthologies.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 27, 2016, 02:13:40 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2016, 02:05:25 PM
I only ever write about things I like

I totally approve this philosophy. I have a hard time to understand people who waste their life, their time commenting things they hate.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2016, 02:16:11 PM

Quote from: Gordo on February 27, 2016, 02:13:40 PM
I totally approve this philosophy. I have a hard time to understand people who waste their life, their time commenting things they hate.

Thanks, Gordo. Yes, I would make a horrible critic :D Nice to see you dropping by, hope you have been listening to some Haydn! 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 27, 2016, 02:19:41 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2016, 02:16:11 PM
Thanks, Gordo. Yes, I would make a horrible critic :D Nice to see you dropping by, hope you have been listening to some Haydn! 0:)

8)

Well, as you know, dear friend, my time to listen to music is severely limited these days. Anyway, when I get some time, Haydn and Bach are always the first option. 0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2016, 04:42:24 PM

Quote from: Gordo on February 27, 2016, 02:19:41 PM
Well, as you know, dear friend, my time to listen to music is severely limited these days. Anyway, when I get some time, Haydn and Bach are always the first option. 0:)

Ahh, Bach! ::) Well, 1 out of 2 ain't bad. :D :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2016, 04:52:10 PM

Quote from: Florestan on February 23, 2016, 01:30:22 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GfKrZLpYL.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51RCt1rsp2L.jpg)

Was Beethoven familiar with the A major divertimento? The main theme of the Allegro from Op. 5 / 1 is strikingly similar to Haydn´s Largo.

I have to say, that A major divertimento is a bit of a puzzle to me. The only Polonaise movement Haydn put into a Trio was in #97, which is in D. So it must be some other adaptation, all of which, as I say, puzzles me. No matter about that though, if it is good music, it is worth the listening. I just can't face up to your other question because I can't figure out which piece it is... :-\ One of the 12 cassations for 2 Barytons & Baßo is a Polonaise in A. I wonder if they adapted 3 of them to make a piece for Baryton & Harpsichord. It is certainly do-able.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Camphy on March 06, 2016, 01:12:47 AM

It seems like this is a reissue. Prestoclassical states that the concertos were recorded in 1997.

(http://i.prs.to/t_300/panclassicspc10353.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on March 06, 2016, 07:35:11 AM

Quote from: Camphy on March 06, 2016, 01:12:47 AM
It seems lik this is a reissue. Prestoclassical states that the concertos were recorded in 1997.

(http://i.prs.to/t_300/panclassicspc10353.jpg)

Should be; Poppen hasn't been the director of the MKO for decades.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on March 06, 2016, 07:46:45 AM

If one looks at amazon there are several oop issues of that recording from 98 and the early 2000s. The new one seems to be the 3rd issue or so.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 09, 2016, 06:26:40 PM

Going to a concert series in 1792 was pretty much the same as dropping in to Avery Fisher Hall or Wigmore Hall today, right? Well, to start, you better damn sure have your horses parked pointing the right direction!

Already a tradition! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2016/03/1792-the-year-part-2.html)

See what I found out about concerts this week.

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on March 13, 2016, 05:58:16 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 09, 2016, 06:26:40 PM
Going to a concert series in 1792 was pretty much the same as dropping in to Avery Fisher Hall or Wigmore Hall today, right? Well, to start, you better damn sure have your horses parked pointing the right direction!

Already a tradition! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2016/03/1792-the-year-part-2.html)

See what I found out about concerts this week.

A very enjoyable and informative read. I appreciated your description of the role of concerts in London society and of the way things were cartried out.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2016, 06:00:56 PM

Quote from: Old Listener on March 13, 2016, 05:58:16 PM
A very enjoyable and informative read. I appreciated your description of the role of concerts in London society and of the way things were cartried out.

Thank you very kindly. Nice to know someone reads it! :)

I really liked working on that one, because after doing last year's essays, I had a lot of questions myself which needed answering. It is the best of all when you learn something new and someone else does too!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 14, 2016, 01:44:59 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 09, 2016, 06:26:40 PM
Already a tradition! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2016/03/1792-the-year-part-2.html)

Most interesting, Gurn. Thanks a lot!

I particularly liked the concert reviews. Brief, informative (for the connoiseurs) and elegantly written. Comparing them with today´s reviews, replete with bombastic nonsense, is quite amusing.

Oh, and this is a gem: "Prince Esterházy didn't run a for-profit business. For all of Haydn's career, he got paid whether there was anyone or no one at all in the audience, and at Eszterháza, anyone who wasn't otherwise occupied was free to attend the concerts or operas as long as they weren't unduly intoxicated." I can imagine the following exchange between, say, a footman and a gardener: - Hey, Johann, today´s our day off, I suggest we have some pints of beer later on! - Ermmm, you see, Fritz, I´d like that but tonight the Kapellmeister will present his new ouverture and I wouldn´t miss it for all the beer in the world! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 14, 2016, 04:54:07 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 14, 2016, 01:44:59 AM
Most interesting, Gurn. Thanks a lot!

I particularly liked the concert reviews. Brief, informative (for the connoiseurs) and elegantly written. Comparing them with today´s reviews, replete with bombastic nonsense, is quite amusing.

Oh, and this is a gem: "Prince Esterházy didn't run a for-profit business. For all of Haydn's career, he got paid whether there was anyone or no one at all in the audience, and at Eszterháza, anyone who wasn't otherwise occupied was free to attend the concerts or operas as long as they weren't unduly intoxicated." I can imagine the following exchange between, say, a footman and a gardener: - Hey, Johann, today´s our day off, I suggest we have some pints of beer later on! - Ermmm, you see, Fritz, I´d like that but tonight the Kapellmeister will present his new ouverture and I wouldn´t miss it for all the beer in the world! :D

Merci beaucoup!

I liked the Times review quite a lot. It was good writing, really. The Times was relatively new back then, it had only recently taken up for its predecessor, but it was already clearly of a higher standard than its competition.

Well, it wouldn't have done to show up obviously intoxicated. The punishments meted out were still Medieval! So put down the pint and let's off to the Opera House!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 14, 2016, 05:21:55 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 14, 2016, 04:54:07 AM
Well, it wouldn't have done to show up obviously intoxicated. The punishments meted out were still Medieval! So put down the pint and let's off to the Opera House!

Interestingly enough: from the point of view of getting the opportunity to listen to great music, one had more chances if one were a servant at the aristocratic estate of Eszterhaza than if one were a free man in bourgeois London. In this respect Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser seems to have yielded better results than God Save The King, apparently. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 14, 2016, 05:55:29 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 14, 2016, 05:21:55 AM
Interestingly enough: from the point of view of getting the opportunity to listen to great music, one had more chances if one were a servant at the aristocratic estate of Eszterhaza than if one were a free man in bourgeois London. In this respect Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser seems to have yielded better results than God Save The King, apparently. ;D

"Free man in bourgeois London" doesn't connote any degree of cultural advancement. I don't really imagine they wanted to go to the concert. They could hear all the music they wanted, and more to their liking, at any of the music gardens like Vauxhall. And for tuppence! I sincerely doubt they, like many of us, considered it a class issue. We must be careful of applying our modern values to a distinctly non-modern situation! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 14, 2016, 06:04:35 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 14, 2016, 05:55:29 AM
We must be careful of applying our modern values to a distinctly non-modern situation! :D

That´s exactly what I wanted (perhaps clumsily) to suggest.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on March 15, 2016, 02:12:51 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 14, 2016, 05:21:55 AM
Interestingly enough: from the point of view of getting the opportunity to listen to great music, one had more chances if one were a servant at the aristocratic estate of Eszterhaza than if one were a free man in bourgeois London.

But one had more chance as a free man in London than as a free man anywhere else.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 15, 2016, 02:23:39 AM

Quote from: orfeo on March 15, 2016, 02:12:51 AM
But one had more chance as a free man in London than as a free man anywhere else.

Anywhere else except perhaps the Italian states, where going to the opera house was quite popular.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 21, 2016, 05:25:48 PM

What did Haydn go through to make a joke? What did his audience think of all that? Those are some questions I asked myself in this week's essay. I got some answers, amazingly! :D

It was only a joke, I'm sorry I woke you! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2016/03/1792-the-concert-season-part-2.html)

Thanks for checking it out!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on March 22, 2016, 04:54:42 AM

I do think it was one of the great things about Haydn that he thought so much about what worked for his audiences. There's a lot of thought and effort behind his style.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 25, 2016, 05:55:49 AM

A lot of natural musical intelligence resides behind art whose surface is so apparently effortless.

Separately: today is the day, of course, to enjoy the Savall DVD . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 25, 2016, 05:59:39 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on March 25, 2016, 05:55:49 AM
A lot of natural musical intelligence resides behind art whose surface is so apparently effortless.

Separately: today is the day, of course, to enjoy the Savall DVD . . . .

Yes, and yes. I'm off on a short jaunt, Savall will wait for late afternoon. Looking forward to it, as I only watch it once a year. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 25, 2016, 06:03:12 AM

Good jaunting, sieur!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 31, 2016, 04:49:34 AM

Happy Birthday, Giuseppe! :)

284 years young today!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 31, 2016, 04:58:46 AM

♫ We're havin' a party!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 01, 2016, 09:36:28 AM

Just left the post below in the listening thread which will soon be 'buried' - so a repeat here for those interested in the LHQ's recordings - Dave :)

QuoteHaydn, Joseph - String Quartets, Op. 50 w/ the London Haydn Quartet (LHQ) - just arrived today; I've been collecting this group from the start, and now up to 30 SQs recorded - there are 68 works in this genre listed HERE (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_string_quartets_by_Joseph_Haydn), including 12 quartets that precede Op. 9 (the first double CD released by this group), including 10 numbered ones listed as Op. 1 & 2 (also two unnumbered pieces), and apparently a spurious Op. 3 - as to the pre-Op. 9 sets, I have only the 10 mentioned in the Buchberger Quartet box (first 3 CDs).

Also, appears that the LHQ will be continuing the project as quoted below (Source (http://londonhaydnquartet.co.uk)) - for reviews and comments on the Op. 50 performance, see the attached PDF file. Dave :)

QuoteRecording update: The next volume (op 50) in the Haydn series with Hyperion will shortly be released. Meanwhile LHQ is looking forward to continuing the collaboration with producer Philip Hobbs recording the following set (op 54 and op 55) this November.

(https://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-KVMcXzN/0/O/Haydn_SQsOp50_LondonHQ.jpg) (http://media.sketchanet.com/u/270310/images/1920/1432501700home-main-narrow.png)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 01, 2016, 10:01:37 AM

The new edition of Haydn's works puts the early divertimenti from op.1 and 2 into a separate section from the quartets op.9 onwards whereas they were traditionally grouped with the string quartets. op.3 is almost certainly not by Haydn but by Romanus Hofstetter.

op.1 and 2 were published as groups of six each but one from op.1 and two from op.2 were originally not string quartets but divertimenti or symphonies with horn parts that were simply left out in their publication as "string quartets". Then another string divertimento was found that had not been published in either op. but is now included in op.1. That's how one arrives at 10.
The total number of quartets becomes confusing not only because op.3 is often still included but also because the string quartet version of the 7 last words is counted as *7* string quartets (which is really odd as it is one piece in 9 movements (prelude - 7 words - terremoto))

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on April 01, 2016, 10:41:35 AM

The other day I interviewed the athletic director of the college where I work, and we talked about the college's baseball team. The college won 7 championships, but they were so long ago that when I wrote down all the years, in my head I thought, "Hey, that looks like a really nice collection of Haydn symphonies!"

(85, 86, 87, 90, 91, 92, 94)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 03, 2016, 01:03:40 PM

when you think of Haydn, Ladies' Man probably isn't the first thing that pops into your head. But reality has a way of being different than perception, as I discovered this week. Check it out!

It wasn't my good looks... (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2016/04/1792-the-year-part-3.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on April 07, 2016, 10:33:59 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 03, 2016, 01:03:40 PM
when you think of Haydn, Ladies' Man probably isn't the first thing that pops into your head. But reality has a way of being different than perception, as I discovered this week. Check it out!

It wasn't my good looks... (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2016/04/1792-the-year-part-3.html)

I always appreciate your articles that flesh out my understanding of Haydn as a person.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 07, 2016, 10:58:15 AM

Quote from: Old Listener on April 07, 2016, 10:33:59 AM
I always appreciate your articles that flesh out my understanding of Haydn as a person.

Thanks, OL. Everything I look into, I discover there is so much more than what we are generally told. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on April 07, 2016, 01:59:01 PM

re: Haydn - ladies man?

Depends on what sort of ladies weez talkin' 'bout. ;)

(http://s20.postimg.org/wv5l07kkt/Haydnfrau.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 07, 2016, 04:04:08 PM

Quote from: Scion7 on April 07, 2016, 01:59:01 PM
re: Haydn - ladies man?

Depends on what sort of ladies weez talkin' 'bout. ;)

(http://s20.postimg.org/wv5l07kkt/Haydnfrau.jpg)

Hmmm... on the right day (or night) in the right mood, well, what can I say, that wig! That frilly collar; sign ME up! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on April 09, 2016, 08:42:47 AM

Great essay, Gurn. It's very informative about Haydn's real persona and and, therefore, important to understand a certain spirit of his music.

I liked your unbiased approach in regards his wife. I usually distrust of the unanimous judgement about some people like Kafka's father, Socrates' wife and so on. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 09, 2016, 10:13:02 AM

Quote from: Gordo on April 09, 2016, 08:42:47 AM
Great essay, Gurn. It's very informative about Haydn's real persona and and, therefore, important to understand a certain spirit of his music.

I liked your unbiased approach in regards his wife. I usually distrust of the unanimous judgement about some people like Kafka's father, Socrates' wife and so on. :)

Thank you kindly, Gordo. I much appreciate it when people see things as I do, it makes me feel successful as a writer. :) I know just what you mean about history's treatment of certain people. The one I had in mind when I was doing this essay was Constanze Mozart. Some of the things I read about her back when I was studying Mozart were stupefying in their chauvinistic unfairness. The mere fact that Mozart was obviously madly in love with her is all that needs to be said in that regard. And so with Anna Haydn, the fact she and Giuseppe just didn't click over the long run doesn't make her the devil incarnate. :-\

Cheers,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on April 10, 2016, 07:26:08 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 13, 2016, 09:21:23 AM
I was trying to infer the contents of the box from the barren listing at jpc. I seem to see they have skipped over the Sinfonia concertante, and instead, they have put in three of the Salomon transcriptions for chamber group, since there is a string quartet, and Hogwood on the fortepiano, although no flutist is mentioned. Interesting idea. No matter what possible combination they come up with it won't affect me; I have all of it!

We now have official word from both MDT and Amazon! Note the Hogwood 76/77 are included. :)

• CD1: Symphonies Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4 & 5
• CD2: Symphonies Nos. 6 "Morning", 7" Noon" & 8" Evening"
• CD3: Symphonies Nos. 9, 10, 11, 107 & 108
• CD4: Symphonies Nos. 12, 13, 14 & 15
• CD5: Symphonies Nos. 16, 17, 18, 19 & 20
• CD6: Symphonies Nos. 25, 27, 32 & 33
• CD7: Symphonies Nos. 36, 37, & 40
• CD8: Symphonies Nos. 21, 22 "Philosopher", 23 & 24
• CD9: Symphonies Nos. 30 "Alleluia", 34 & 72
• CD10: Symphonies Nos. 28, 29 & 31"Hornsignal"

The Academy of Ancient Music / Christopher Hogwood

• CD11: Symphonies Nos. 51, 41, 39 & 35
• CD12: Symphonies Nos. 50, 43"Mercury", 58 & 59"Feuer"
• CD13: Symphonies Nos. 47"The Palindrome", 46, 26" Lamentatione" & 49" La Passione"
• CD14: Symphonies Nos. 48 "Maria Theresia", 44"Trauer-Sinfonie" & 42
• CD15: Symphonies Nos. 52, 38 "Echo", 65 & 45"Farewell"

Orchestra Of The Age Of Enlightenment / Frans Brüggen

• CD16: Symphony No. 54, Versions 1 & 2
• CD17: Symphonies Nos. 55" The Schoolmaster" & 56
• CD18: Symphonies Nos. 57, 60"Il distratto" & 64"Tempora mutantur"

The Academy of Ancient Music / Christopher Hogwood

• CD19: Symphonies Nos. 61, 66 & 69 "Laudon"

The Academy of Ancient Music / Frans Brüggen

• CD20: Symphonies Nos. 67, 68 & 70
• CD21: Symphonies Nos. 53"L'Impériale", 62 & 63"La Roxelane"
• CD22: Symphonies Nos. 71, 74 & 75
• CD23: Symphonies Nos. 73 "La Chasse" , 76 & 77

The Academy of Ancient Music / Christopher Hogwood

• CD24: Symphonies Nos. 78 & 79
• CD25: Symphonies Nos. 80 & 81

Accademia Bizantina / Ottavio Dantone

• CD26: Symphonies Nos. 82 "The Bear", 83"The Hen" & 84 "In nomine Domini"
• CD27: Symphonies Nos. 85 "The Queen", 86 & 87
• CD28: Symphonies Nos. 89, 88 & Sinfonia Concertante
• CD29: Symphonies Nos. 90, 91 & 92
• CD30: Symphonies Nos. 93, 102 & 103" Drumroll"
• CD31: Symphonies Nos. 94 "The Surprise", 97 & 99
• CD32: Symphonies Nos. 95, 98 & 101 "The Clock"
• CD33: Symphonies Nos. 96 "The Miracle", 100 "Military" & 104 " London"

Orchestra Of The 18th Century / Frans Brüggen

• CD34: Symphonies 96, 100 & 104

The Academy of Ancient Music / Christopher Hogwood

• CD35: Symphonies Nos. 94, 100 & 104

Salomon Quartet, The Academy Of Ancient Music Chamber Ensemble

http://www.mdt.co.uk/haydn-107-symphonies-christopher-hogwood-bruggen-ottavio-dantone-decca-36cds.html

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2016, 07:32:58 AM

Quote from: Brian on April 10, 2016, 07:26:08 AM
We now have official word from both MDT and Amazon! Note the Hogwood 76/77 are included. :)

• CD1: Symphonies Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4 & 5
• CD2: Symphonies Nos. 6 "Morning", 7" Noon" & 8" Evening"
• CD3: Symphonies Nos. 9, 10, 11, 107 & 108
• CD4: Symphonies Nos. 12, 13, 14 & 15
• CD5: Symphonies Nos. 16, 17, 18, 19 & 20
• CD6: Symphonies Nos. 25, 27, 32 & 33
• CD7: Symphonies Nos. 36, 37, & 40
• CD8: Symphonies Nos. 21, 22 "Philosopher", 23 & 24
• CD9: Symphonies Nos. 30 "Alleluia", 34 & 72
• CD10: Symphonies Nos. 28, 29 & 31"Hornsignal"

The Academy of Ancient Music / Christopher Hogwood

• CD11: Symphonies Nos. 51, 41, 39 & 35
• CD12: Symphonies Nos. 50, 43"Mercury", 58 & 59"Feuer"
• CD13: Symphonies Nos. 47"The Palindrome", 46, 26" Lamentatione" & 49" La Passione"
• CD14: Symphonies Nos. 48 "Maria Theresia", 44"Trauer-Sinfonie" & 42
• CD15: Symphonies Nos. 52, 38 "Echo", 65 & 45"Farewell"

Orchestra Of The Age Of Enlightenment / Frans Brüggen

• CD16: Symphony No. 54, Versions 1 & 2
• CD17: Symphonies Nos. 55" The Schoolmaster" & 56
• CD18: Symphonies Nos. 57, 60"Il distratto" & 64"Tempora mutantur"

The Academy of Ancient Music / Christopher Hogwood

• CD19: Symphonies Nos. 61, 66 & 69 "Laudon"

The Academy of Ancient Music / Frans Brüggen

• CD20: Symphonies Nos. 67, 68 & 70
• CD21: Symphonies Nos. 53"L'Impériale", 62 & 63"La Roxelane"
• CD22: Symphonies Nos. 71, 74 & 75
• CD23: Symphonies Nos. 73 "La Chasse" , 76 & 77

The Academy of Ancient Music / Christopher Hogwood

• CD24: Symphonies Nos. 78 & 79
• CD25: Symphonies Nos. 80 & 81

Accademia Bizantina / Ottavio Dantone

• CD26: Symphonies Nos. 82 "The Bear", 83"The Hen" & 84 "In nomine Domini"
• CD27: Symphonies Nos. 85 "The Queen", 86 & 87
• CD28: Symphonies Nos. 89, 88 & Sinfonia Concertante
• CD29: Symphonies Nos. 90, 91 & 92
• CD30: Symphonies Nos. 93, 102 & 103" Drumroll"
• CD31: Symphonies Nos. 94 "The Surprise", 97 & 99
• CD32: Symphonies Nos. 95, 98 & 101 "The Clock"
• CD33: Symphonies Nos. 96 "The Miracle", 100 "Military" & 104 " London"

Orchestra Of The 18th Century / Frans Brüggen

• CD34: Symphonies 96, 100 & 104

The Academy of Ancient Music / Christopher Hogwood

• CD35: Symphonies Nos. 94, 100 & 104

Salomon Quartet, The Academy Of Ancient Music Chamber Ensemble

http://www.mdt.co.uk/haydn-107-symphonies-christopher-hogwood-bruggen-ottavio-dantone-decca-36cds.html

Thanks for the update, Brian. That's a nice blending of sounds and styles. I like Brüggen's Sturm und Drang set, so that's an ideal breakup to a long string of AAM. Also nice to see Hogwood's Military in there. All around, I think they did the best they could do with what they had to work with. At this point, with this box, anyone who says they can't see their way clear to get a Haydn symphonies cycle just doesn't want one, not really. >:D

8)

PS - I wonder what the story is with Disk #19??

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on April 10, 2016, 12:24:54 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2016, 07:32:58 AM
PS - I wonder what the story is with Disk #19??

Just checked Amazon - they have the same problem - but HMV.co.jp lists 16-23 all together as part of the Hogwood set. http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Haydn-1732-1809_000000000018516/item_Complete-Symphonies-Hogwood-AAM-Bruggen-Dantone-35CD-Limited_6915969

As one of those unlucky/lucky people who doesn't own the stuff in this set already, I shall be buying! $60 is awfully cheap :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 11, 2016, 04:06:43 AM

Quote from: Brian on April 10, 2016, 12:24:54 PM
Just checked Amazon - they have the same problem - but HMV.co.jp lists 16-23 all together as part of the Hogwood set. http://www.hmv.co.jp/en/artist_Haydn-1732-1809_000000000018516/item_Complete-Symphonies-Hogwood-AAM-Bruggen-Dantone-35CD-Limited_6915969

As one of those unlucky/lucky people who doesn't own the stuff in this set already, I shall be buying! $60 is awfully cheap :D

Très cool!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on April 12, 2016, 09:12:29 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2016, 07:32:58 AM
Thanks for the update, Brian. That's a nice blending of sounds and styles. I like Brüggen's Sturm und Drang set, so that's an ideal breakup to a long string of AAM. Also nice to see Hogwood's Military in there. All around, I think they did the best they could do with what they had to work with. At this point, with this box, anyone who says they can't see their way clear to get a Haydn symphonies cycle just doesn't want one, not really. >:D

8)

PS - I wonder what the story is with Disk #19??

So the new Decca set has your seal of approval, Gurn?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 12, 2016, 10:23:32 AM

Quote from: George on April 12, 2016, 09:12:29 AM
So the new Decca set has your seal of approval, Gurn?

:) You bet, George. I already have all the disks in it, and there isn't a clunker in the bunch. My first box of 3 disks of Hogwood, already OOP at the time I bought it, cost me $50. This entire set of 35 disks at $60 is a shockingly better deal! As for the playing, it is as good as any. If I was to build a set out of other PI recordings (which I have them all!) there would be several out of 107 that would be different, but not because any of these sucked! ;)

Buy with confidence. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on April 12, 2016, 11:45:01 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 12, 2016, 10:23:32 AM
:) You bet, George. I already have all the disks in it, and there isn't a clunker in the bunch. My first box of 3 disks of Hogwood, already OOP at the time I bought it, cost me $50. This entire set of 35 disks at $60 is a shockingly better deal! As for the playing, it is as good as any. If I was to build a set out of other PI recordings (which I have them all!) there would be several out of 107 that would be different, but not because any of these sucked! ;)

Buy with confidence. 0:)

8)

Thanks for the info, Gurn. This will be my only set of the Haydn symphonies (and I only have a half dozen CDs of the Haydn symphonies as it is), so I wanted to make sure these were (at least) excellent performances.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 12, 2016, 12:23:55 PM

Quote from: George on April 12, 2016, 11:45:01 AM
Thanks for the info, Gurn. This will be my only set of the Haydn symphonies (and I only have a half dozen CDs of the Haydn symphonies as it is), so I wanted to make sure these were (at least) excellent performances.

I think it's a good move, George. I have high hopes (and confidence) you will be very pleased! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 12, 2016, 12:36:00 PM

I have all of the Brüggen and about 1/3 of Hogwood's but I guess all the ones I have are included, so overall almost halve of the set and despite the great price, I think I will restrict myself to the new double disc with Dantone.

I think the Brüggen is overall excellent and exciting despite a few excentricities, e.g. some wild tempo changes in the finale of 98 and some rather slow tempi in the first movements of 90 and 93.

Hogwood is not excentric. I find some of them a little "dry" and the very small (and small sounding) orchestra of the early pieces might not be to everyone's taste. Of course the main/only alternative for the early symphonies with HIP orchestra is Goodman who in my ears sounds more pleasant and less dry but is often marred by an overly prominent harpsichord, so I do not think he is clearly more recommendable than Hogwood.

But I wonder if there is a mistake and disc 19 is actually with Hogwood. These would have to be previously unissued recordings.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 12, 2016, 12:47:17 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on April 12, 2016, 12:36:00 PM
I have all of the Brüggen and about 1/3 of Hogwood's but I guess all the ones I have are included, so overall almost halve of the set and despite the great price, I think I will restrict myself to the new double disc with Dantone.

I think the Brüggen is overall excellent and exciting despite a few excentricities, e.g. some wild tempo changes in the finale of 98 and some rather slow tempi in the first movements of 90 and 93.

Hogwood is not excentric. I find some of them a little "dry" and the very small (and small sounding) orchestra of the early pieces might not be to everyone's taste. Of course the main/only alternative for the early symphonies with HIP orchestra is Goodman who in my ears sounds more pleasant and less dry but is often marred by an overly prominent harpsichord, so I do not think he is clearly more recommendable than Hogwood.

But I wonder if there is a mistake and disc 19 is actually with Hogwood. These would have to be previously unissued recordings.

Yes, Brian came back and said he discovered it was a typo and it should have been Hogwood.

There is no doubt that AAM sound like a small band in the early symphonies, in fact, they are! Of course, the Morzin orchestra for whom they were written only had between 13 & 17 players total, so clearly they are going for the original sound! Obviously they don't have to do it that way, but what the heck, I'm glad someone did!

In a private communication here, I did recommend to someone that he try the Goodman disks instead of buying the re-release of the Hogwood just before this one came out. I know he tried 1 or 2 but haven't heard back yet how he liked them.

The problem with all that is that no one is currently releasing a set of which they make up a part, so going down that road is fruitless. As it happens, I am very keen on L'Estro Armonico/Solomons and the Apollo Ensemble/Hsu also, and could possibly make up a nice set along with Kuijken and La Petite Bande... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on April 12, 2016, 01:02:18 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on April 12, 2016, 12:36:00 PM
I have all of the Brüggen and about 1/3 of Hogwood's but I guess all the ones I have are included, so overall almost halve of the set and despite the great price, I think I will restrict myself to the new double disc with Dantone.

I think the Brüggen is overall excellent and exciting despite a few excentricities, e.g. some wild tempo changes in the finale of 98 and some rather slow tempi in the first movements of 90 and 93.

Hogwood is not excentric. I find some of them a little "dry" and the very small (and small sounding) orchestra of the early pieces might not be to everyone's taste. Of course the main/only alternative for the early symphonies with HIP orchestra is Goodman who in my ears sounds more pleasant and less dry but is often marred by an overly prominent harpsichord, so I do not think he is clearly more recommendable than Hogwood.

But I wonder if there is a mistake and disc 19 is actually with Hogwood. These would have to be previously unissued recordings.

Thanks for weighing in, Jo.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on April 12, 2016, 01:09:20 PM

George - I hadn't always taken you for a HIPster, so welcome to the club? Either way, if you're interested in the Haydn symphonies, the George Szell 4CD box is mandatory, desert-island-level stuff. One of my favorite purchases ever, and on Amazon MP for $9:

[asin]B003TUG3UO[/asin]

EDIT: Listening to #93 again now.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on April 12, 2016, 03:44:43 PM

Quote from: Brian on April 12, 2016, 01:09:20 PM
George - I hadn't always taken you for a HIPster, so welcome to the club? Either way, if you're interested in the Haydn symphonies, the George Szell 4CD box is mandatory, desert-island-level stuff. One of my favorite purchases ever, and on Amazon MP for $9:

[asin]B003TUG3UO[/asin]

EDIT: Listening to #93 again now.

Thanks, Brian. I have all but 88 and 104 from that set, on CDs released earlier. And I am saving my dough for the aforementioned Decca set.

I am neither pro-HIP nor an anti-HIP. My rule is this - I listen to something and if I enjoy it, if it pleases my ears, I buy it. The samples I could find from the new Decca set of the Hogwood recordings sound good to me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 12, 2016, 10:41:20 PM

The new compilation is impossible to beat for price and for having everything together in good to great interpretations.

Even if someone prefers Goodman in the early pieces there are no available HIP recordings for most of the 50s/60s numbers (Solomons recorded some but not all and few have been on CD). And as Goodman's are available as singles at midprice someone who is really fond of the early ones or the 70-78 can easily try some of Goodman's in addition to the box.

But I felt obliged to point out that not everyone thinks that Hogwood's are completely convincing throughout and the probably appropriate but smallish sound of some of them might take some listeners aback at first.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 12, 2016, 11:41:44 PM

Hi Gurn

I think a few hundred pages ago ( ;D) you were saying that there were two Haydn Symphonies that have never been recorded on PI. Does this the Decca box set now complete the PI 107?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 13, 2016, 12:29:21 AM

The recently recorded 79 and 81 (dir. Dantone) are the first recordings of these pieces on historic instruments.

("A" and "B" (or 107 and 108) are in on of the early Hogwood volumes, but they are probably also the only HIP recordings. But Gurn will know those details or what other options exist. This could actually be a nice task: Try to get as far as possible with HIP recordings OUTSIDE that box.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 13, 2016, 03:35:15 AM

Just so we get this straight... are we saying that the new box has all the Hogwood in the Oiseau-Lyre box I've been contemplating, and the recordings that previously were only on a BBC music magazine?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 13, 2016, 03:54:18 AM

It has the 76+77 from BBC but it does NOT have the complete L'oiseau lyre because the works on discs 11-15 are with Brüggen in the new box (and were recorded by Hogwood). I also think Hogwood's #94 is not doubled and should be included in the older Hogwood set. (Hogwood had two single discs with 94/96 and 100/104 in addition to the 3-disc-boxes.) But I would not hesitate getting the new set.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on April 13, 2016, 07:32:37 PM

Ideally, one should get both the Hogwood and Bruggen boxes.... But the Bruggen is effectively unobtainable, at least on Amazon US. There is one copy of the older issue offered for $130US. The 2009 issue, the one I got last year,is not available at all.

I did just now finally bite the bullet and ordered a used copy of Hogwood/BBC for $29.50 plus shipping. I never order used copies online, never pay that much for a single CD.... But I will have all the Hogwood, at least.

Now I suppose I need to start getting the Solomons recordings, as much as they are available.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 13, 2016, 10:51:30 PM

I have not heard the Hogwood Sturm&Drang which is replaced by Brüggen's in the new box. But these are the works where we have far more alternatives than for anything else before 82, so I doubt that Hogwood is as essential here as in the "60s" numbers.

For some that new box might be worth it just to get the Brüggen and the Hogwood BBC because both are so hard to get, reagardless of doubling some of the Hogwood. As I have ca. 2/3 of that set already, I am not one of those but I'D probably be tempted in other circumstances although I am not quite as fond of the Hogwood recordings I have as some others, so this might be another factor. I also still hope to get the one Vol. of the old Hogwood issue I want for a decent price some time...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 14, 2016, 04:50:17 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on April 12, 2016, 10:41:20 PM
The new compilation is impossible to beat for price and for having everything together in good to great interpretations.

Even if someone prefers Goodman in the early pieces there are no available HIP recordings for most of the 50s/60s numbers (Solomons recorded some but not all and few have been on CD). And as Goodman's are available as singles at midprice someone who is really fond of the early ones or the 70-78 can easily try some of Goodman's in addition to the box.

But I felt obliged to point out that not everyone thinks that Hogwood's are completely convincing throughout and the probably appropriate but smallish sound of some of them might take some listeners aback at first.

Agreed on all points. My personal opinion is that the sound of the Hogwood early symphonies is a lot fuller than I thought it would be before I ever heard it. I knew it was done with an authentic-sized orchestra and I was anticipation much skimpier, so what is a negative surprise for some was a positive one for me! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 14, 2016, 04:51:38 AM

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on April 12, 2016, 11:41:44 PM
Hi Gurn

I think a few hundred pages ago ( ;D) you were saying that there were two Haydn Symphonies that have never been recorded on PI. Does this the Decca box set now complete the PI 107?

Yes it does, there are now no known symphonies which are not recorded on period instruments. I am very pleased with the Dantone, they do a very nice job!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 14, 2016, 05:01:10 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on April 13, 2016, 12:29:21 AM
The recently recorded 79 and 81 (dir. Dantone) are the first recordings of these pieces on historic instruments.

("A" and "B" (or 107 and 108) are in on of the early Hogwood volumes, but they are probably also the only HIP recordings. But Gurn will know those details or what other options exist. This could actually be a nice task: Try to get as far as possible with HIP recordings OUTSIDE that box.)

It IS a nice task. I think I have them all, but every now and again one will pop up and surprise me, like 'where did THAT come from?'! Sort of like the brilliant Opus 33 you pointed me to recently.

I will have to check when I get home because I don't want to err here, but I am pretty sure you are right, Hogwood IS the only PI recording of A & B. Also there are 2 (IIRC) symphonies in the 50's which they did both versions of. There are a lot of combinations one can look for, such as with and without trumpets and timpani or with or without the slow introduction, or the bassoons.

Surprisingly, they are virtually all out there and make for an interesting challenge. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 14, 2016, 05:06:43 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 14, 2016, 04:51:38 AM
Yes it does, there are now no known symphonies which are not recorded on period instruments. I am very pleased with the Dantone, they do a very nice job!

8)

A landmark!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 14, 2016, 05:08:00 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on April 13, 2016, 03:54:18 AM
It has the 76+77 from BBC but it does NOT have the complete L'oiseau lyre because the works on discs 11-15 are with Brüggen in the new box (and were recorded by Hogwood). I also think Hogwood's #94 is not doubled and should be included in the older Hogwood set. (Hogwood had two single discs with 94/96 and 100/104 in addition to the 3-disc-boxes.) But I would not hesitate getting the new set.

And just to point it out; the BC disk with 76 & 77 was actually supposed to be Disk 1 of Volume 11 (each original volume was 3 disks). They had that one in the can before Decca pulled the plug. If they had just been allowed to finish that volume, this whole question of 76-81 would have been avoided and they would have been up to the Paris Symphonies, which there are a dozen to choose from. Very short-sighted on Decca's part, as they stuck through the obscurities, then bailed out when they got up to the certain money-makers. Fools!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 14, 2016, 05:17:37 AM

Brüggen's Sturm und Drang symphonies:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnBrggenSDcover.jpg)[/URL]

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 13, 2016, 07:32:37 PM
Ideally, one should get both the Hogwood and Bruggen boxes.... But the Bruggen is effectively unobtainable, at least on Amazon US. There is one copy of the older issue offered for $130US. The 2009 issue, the one I got last year,is not available at all.

I did just now finally bite the bullet and ordered a used copy of Hogwood/BBC for $29.50 plus shipping. I never order used copies online, never pay that much for a single CD.... But I will have all the Hogwood, at least.

Now I suppose I need to start getting the Solomons recordings, as much as they are available.

I got the Brüggen about in 2011, it was going for $125 then and I had a number of emails back and forth with the seller and ended up getting it for $75. I doubt it could be had for that today!! But it has been re-released at least twice, once in that pretty purple box of all his Haydn, then again after he died. So it can be had, but this would be the easiest and most economical way right now.

Unbelievable how the BBC Hogwood has shot up. I been telling people to buy it if they wanted it, and it went up even faster than I thought it would. I paid $7 brand new... >:D

There are 2 chubby boxes, a 2 disk and 3 disk set of Solomons. You would need both of those. Then, there is a single that has 45 & 48, IIRC, this is the only disk with 48 on it. Then, The Haydn House has the other 11 disks as CD-R's. Don't be proud it is the only way you will ever get them unless the world turns on its side. They are excellent quality. I ripped them to FLAC anyway and have them archived so if the disks die, I have backup. That will make all the Solomons for you. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on April 14, 2016, 07:56:10 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 14, 2016, 05:17:37 AM
Brüggen's Sturm und Drang symphonies:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa159/Gurn_Blanston/CD%20Covers/Haydn%20Covers/HaydnBrggenSDcover.jpg)[/URL]

I got the Brüggen about in 2011, it was going for $125 then and I had a number of emails back and forth with the seller and ended up getting it for $75. I doubt it could be had for that today!! But it has been re-released at least twice, once in that pretty purple box of all his Haydn, then again after he died. So it can be had, but this would be the easiest and most economical way right now.

Unbelievable how the BBC Hogwood has shot up. I been telling people to buy it if they wanted it, and it went up even faster than I thought it would. I paid $7 brand new... >:D

There are 2 chubby boxes, a 2 disk and 3 disk set of Solomons. You would need both of those. Then, there is a single that has 45 & 48, IIRC, this is the only disk with 48 on it. Then, The Haydn House has the other 11 disks as CD-R's. Don't be proud it is the only way you will ever get them unless the world turns on its side. They are excellent quality. I ripped them to FLAC anyway and have them archived so if the disks die, I have backup. That will make all the Solomons for you. :)

8)

Taking notes...
This is the Bruggen I have
[asin]B00O1A8YCG[/asin]
Amazon US says it is "currently unavailable". I did not look on the other Amazons.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 14, 2016, 08:15:07 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 14, 2016, 07:56:10 AM
Taking notes...
This is the Bruggen I have
[asin]B00O1A8YCG[/asin]
Amazon US says it is "currently unavailable". I did not look on the other Amazons.

Yes, yours is the one they released, like, a week after he died! It is pretty complete, something like 14 disks? Other than that one box set of mine, I have all singles! Well, "Paris" is a double, I guess. Right now, I have to find out about Brüggen having a BBC disk, if I understand Jo's post correctly. Damn, always something!

This is the other, original collected edition. I never got it because even back then it was $150 if you could find it. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 14, 2016, 10:03:15 AM

I have the one with the shadow & umbrella.
It says "2002" as release date of that compilation on the box but I must have bought it around 2011 or so and very cheap, it was some cutout sale, I don't think I paid more than 25 EUR. As I had the two twofers with the London set I would not have bought it other than very cheap. (So with selling the two London twofers later I probably paid almost nothing...)
If I should find the single Hogwood disc wihth 76+77 for abou EUR 10 or less, I'll grab, but I am not going to pay serious money (I am quite happy with Goodman and Fischer in these works).

The cheapest way would probably be for me to buy the new box and try to sell the Brüggen and the 3 Hogwood Vols. I own. With a little luck I might end up making a profit, if someone really pays 100 EUR for the Brüggen Box!

But despite their bulk I like the design of the original 3-disc-boxes and I do not really like huge boxes. I am also, probably totally unjustified, a little paranoid about those new many-disc-boxes being lower quality and as it could be years before I listened to all the discs, I might be stuck with faulty discs or so... and I irrationally like having a box I bought for EUR 25 or so now being offered used for >120 and still keeping it...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 14, 2016, 10:10:22 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on April 14, 2016, 10:03:15 AM
I have the one with the shadow & umbrella.
It says "2002" as release date of that compilation on the box but I must have bought it around 2011 or so and very cheap, it was some cutout sale, I don't think I paid more than 25 EUR. As I had the two twofers with the London set I would not have bought it other than very cheap. (So with selling the two London twofers later I probably paid almost nothing...)
If I should find the single Hogwood disc wihth 76+77 for abou EUR 10 or less, I'll grab, but I am not going to pay serious money (I am quite happy with Goodman and Fischer in these works).

The cheapest way would probably be for me to buy the new box and try to sell the Brüggen and the 3 Hogwood Vols. I own. With a little luck I might end up making a profit, if someone really pays 100 EUR for the Brüggen Box!

But despite their bulk I like the design of the original 3-disc-boxes and I do not really like huge boxes. I am also, probably totally unjustified, a little paranoid about those new many-disc-boxes being lower quality and as it could be years before I listened to all the discs, I might be stuck with faulty discs or so... and I irrationally like having a box I bought for EUR 25 or so now being offered used for >120 and still keeping it...

Yes, I have no intention of getting rid of my 10, 3 disk boxes. I am very fond of them and could never possibly get back what I have in them anyway. Along with the other 3 singles, it is a nice group.

You mentioned earlier a Brüggen BBC disk. What's the story on that? Why have I never seen it for sale, even now, when I am looking for it? ???

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 14, 2016, 10:16:39 AM

No, I must have meant the Hogwood BBC, sorry, just a mistake on my part.
I am not aware of any odd or rare Haydn with Brüggen.
(There is a Harnoncourt/Concentus DVD with the Oxford symphony and vocal music with Bartoli, that's the only somewhat obscure Haydn recording I have...)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on April 14, 2016, 10:50:35 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on April 14, 2016, 10:16:39 AM
No, I must have meant the Hogwood BBC, sorry, just a mistake on my part.
I am not aware of any odd or rare Haydn with Brüggen.

Maybe we should all confuse Gurn by mixing up the names of performers when we talk about CDs. I was really enjoying my Savall Paukenmesse last night... ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 14, 2016, 11:10:52 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on April 14, 2016, 10:16:39 AM
No, I must have meant the Hogwood BBC, sorry, just a mistake on my part.
I am not aware of any odd or rare Haydn with Brüggen.
(There is a Harnoncourt/Concentus DVD with the Oxford symphony and vocal music with Bartoli, that's the only somewhat obscure Haydn recording I have...)

Phew! Good deal then. Anyway, yes, I have that DVD, have watched it several times. Bartoli's facial expressions were new to me, but her voice is brilliant enough to overcome! :)

Quote from: Brian on April 14, 2016, 10:50:35 AM
Maybe we should all confuse Gurn by mixing up the names of performers when we talk about CDs. I was really enjoying my Savall Paukenmesse last night... ;)

You're just wrong, Brain.... $:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 14, 2016, 11:18:12 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 14, 2016, 05:01:10 AM
I will have to check when I get home because I don't want to err here, but I am pretty sure you are right, Hogwood IS the only PI recording of A & B. Also there are 2 (IIRC) symphonies in the 50's which they did both versions of. There are a lot of combinations one can look for, such as with and without trumpets and timpani or with or without the slow introduction, or the bassoons.

As far as alternative versions go, I am also pretty sure, Hogwood is the only HIP game in town (and the only alternative at all may be Dorati (who did some alternative movements, not sure if as thorough as Hogwood), Fischer does not have alternative movements and I do not know whether Russel Davies or Naxos do).

Going backwards: 82-104 and the concertante are no problem, there's Kuijken for all of them, several others for Paris and at least Hickox and Minkowski for the London (Norrington did only half, I think?).

Goodman did 70-78, Freiburger/Goltz did 80 and we already covered that 79 and 81 are the first HIP ever.
Harnoncourt did 69 and 60 (68 with Concertgebouw), Weil 64 and 65, and I think Solomons had some of the 60s but they are not available as official CD.
So for 61-63, 66-68 Hogwood might be the only HIP so far.
Same for 55-57; Harnoncourt did 53 and Pinnock (and probably others) 50-52.
40s except 40 are covered by Pinnock and also Goodman and partly by Weil.
Goodman has 1-25.
But for 27-29 and 32-34, 36, 37 I am not aware of any alternatives. Pinnock has 26, 35, 38, 39, Harnoncourt 30 and 31.

I don't know about the ones by Solomons unavailable or never on CD and there are some more I am only vaguely aware of, but it seems that about 20 symphonies would be very hard to find on historical instruments except for Hogwood's recordings.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 14, 2016, 11:42:31 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on April 14, 2016, 11:18:12 AM
As far as alternative versions go, I am also pretty sure, Hogwood is the only HIP game in town (and the only alternative at all may be Dorati (who did some alternative movements, not sure if as thorough as Hogwood), Fischer does not have alternative movements and I do not know whether Russel Davies or Naxos do).

Going backwards: 82-104 and the concertante are no problem, there's Kuijken for all of them, several others for Paris and at least Hickox and Minkowski for the London (Norrington did only half, I think?).

Goodman did 70-78, Freiburger/Goltz did 80 and we already covered that 79 and 81 are the first HIP ever.
Harnoncourt did 69 and 60 (68 with Concertgebouw), Weil 64 and 65, and I think Solomons had some of the 60s but they are not available as official CD.
So for 61-63, 66-68 Hogwood might be the only HIP so far.
Same for 55-57; Harnoncourt did 53 and Pinnock (and probably others) 50-52.
40s except 40 are covered by Pinnock and also Goodman and partly by Weil.
Goodman has 1-25.
But for 27-29 and 32-34, 36, 37 I am not aware of any alternatives. Pinnock has 26, 35, 38, 39, Harnoncourt 30 and 31.

I don't know about the ones by Solomons unavailable or never on CD and there are some more I am only vaguely aware of, but it seems that about 20 symphonies would be very hard to find on historical instruments except for Hogwood's recordings.

I'll make a list tonight, but what you have sounds about right, except for the exact numbers on the Solomons. I remember back when I was writing essays on certain symphonies, I was surprised to discover that my Hogwood's were the only (PI, need I say that?) recordings I had! But there are some unusual things, Hogwood does one symphony in the version without trumpets and timpani, while Solomons does it with trumpets and timpani. Sorry I can't remember which one it is, somewhere in the mid-sixties though. There are also versions of #48 which get the same treatment, since Haydn's original trumpet parts were lost.

There are some other groups which you are missing altogether, which are very worthwhile: The Apollo Ensemble/John Hsu does 5 or 6 disks, as early as 6-8 & 12, and some of the S&D and later. Martin Haselböck and the Vienna Academy likewise do 6-8, and also Hornsignal (31), along with 94, 101, 73 (La chasse) and a couple others. 3 disks in all, in addition to their super 'Organ Masses' disk. All on Novalis. Some one-offs like Arion Baroque (41, 44 & 49) and Anima Eterna (44 & 45 + keyboard concerto #11) are outstanding, and there again, one of Arion Baroque's is the only version of that symphony without the trumpets and timpani. In the Londons, the 2 disks that Hickox got done before he died are definitely worthwhile. Tafelmusik goes without saying, and Amsterdam Baroque/Koopman (44, 45, 49) is very good too. And the couple by Freiburg Baroque.

All that being said, you simply cannot make a full set without Hogwood and Dantone. I'll make a list tonight, now you have me curious myself. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 15, 2016, 01:07:13 AM

I did not mean to give a complete list (neither do I have all the recordings I mentioned), just a quick check for which pieces there is no HIP alternative to Hogwood (or only "theoretical" like some of the LP only Solomons).
Myself, I am largely happy with what I have and it's mainly Vol. 9+10 of the Hogwood series I might snap if occasion arises. Or if there would (but there won't) be a CD box with all extant Solomons recordings (I have only 6 symphonies on two single discs).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 15, 2016, 05:18:52 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on April 15, 2016, 01:07:13 AM
I did not mean to give a complete list (neither do I have all the recordings I mentioned), just a quick check for which pieces there is no HIP alternative to Hogwood (or only "theoretical" like some of the LP only Solomons).
Myself, I am largely happy with what I have and it's mainly Vol. 9+10 of the Hogwood series I might snap if occasion arises. Or if there would (but there won't) be a CD box with all extant Solomons recordings (I have only 6 symphonies on two single discs).

No, for sure, I understand that! A lot of good recordings get overlooked and some others get all the advertising, which is unfortunate sometimes.

I'm still looking for bargain prices on 9 & 10, I'll let you know if I run across some. I was just patient with mine and got a few good deals, which is what I presume you are doing.

I am attaching a pdf to this, it has my collection of PI symphonies. The column at the right tells the total recordings of that symphony, while the row at the bottom tells the total number of symphonies that band/conductor have recorded. The reason I did this was to make it a little easier for interested persons. It took me several years to find out some of this information. In virtually every case, this is the complete recordings by that group/conductor, so it isn't like there is something else hanging out there.

If it is of interest, feel free to use it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 15, 2016, 09:10:23 AM

Thanks, this is a fascinating list!
Not too surprising that there is a bunch of 6/7/8, more surprising that there are so many of #12. I am surprised that there are so many with Solomons that were never on CD... (except for the "Haydn House" dubs).
It is also somewhat surprising that there are only three complete HIP London sets; I thought the Hickox had been completed. Weil has started another one, I think but only half or less. Norrington and Harnoncourt recorded them but not on old instruments throughout.

The ca. 13 symphonies by Solomons that officially came on Sony/CBS CDs are sometimes available used for decent prices; a few years ago I might have snapped them up. But I have 6 (two singles with 26,39,45,48,49,59) and the others are almost all from the "Sturm&Drang" where I already have Pinnock and Brüggen, and I don't really have space or feel any need for more doubling. Granted, Solomons is fairly unique, sounding even smaller than Hogwood but with a lot of nervous energy.

That's also why I am passing the big Hogwood box and rather go for the last two volumes with pieces that are only partly covered by Goodman.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 15, 2016, 12:19:21 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on April 15, 2016, 09:10:23 AM
Thanks, this is a fascinating list!
Not too surprising that there is a bunch of 6/7/8, more surprising that there are so many of #12. I am surprised that there are so many with Solomons that were never on CD... (except for the "Haydn House" dubs).
It is also somewhat surprising that there are only three complete HIP London sets; I thought the Hickox had been completed. Weil has started another one, I think but only half or less. Norrington and Harnoncourt recorded them but not on old instruments throughout.

The ca. 13 symphonies by Solomons that officially came on Sony/CBS CDs are sometimes available used for decent prices; a few years ago I might have snapped them up. But I have 6 (two singles with 26,39,45,48,49,59) and the others are almost all from the "Sturm&Drang" where I already have Pinnock and Brüggen, and I don't really have space or feel any need for more doubling. Granted, Solomons is fairly unique, sounding even smaller than Hogwood but with a lot of nervous energy.

That's also why I am passing the big Hogwood box and rather go for the last two volumes with pieces that are only partly covered by Goodman.

Actually, it rather surprised me, too, since I hadn't ever looked at the data in quite this way before. Certain ones, like #12, which seem like an oddity, are recorded for other reasons too, I think. Two movements #12 were originally, according to Manfred Huss, entr'acte's for the first real opera, Acide, to which he added a movement the following year to make a symphony. So it gets into some theatrical symphony compilations and uses (I have it in a recording of La Canterina, too). Plus, it is a very nice, early symphony, always on my favorites list.

What surprises me are the works which Solomons didn't record! Like the Times of Day, for example. Or, he did 10 & 11 but not 12! And there are only 3 recordings of #22. Was the Cor Anglaise too difficult for the average oboist? I do think the 2 chubby Solomons boxes are a necessity though, the playing is excellent, even though they are, as you say, not overpopulated. And then the really thin ones: 1 recording each of 29, 34 & 36! Clearly there is room for more, it isn't a crowded field once they get away from S&D, Paris and London!

I really think Hickox would have finished his, if death hadn't intervened. And I don't understand why Norrington did the last 6 but not the 6 before that. What's up with that?

I think Pinnock is underrated, but I can only say it's because he elected to record the part of the oeuvre with the most competition. I have anywhere from 5 to 10 recordings of every work he recorded, and so even though his are very nice, I could live without them. If he had done 76-81 though, or some in the 50's & 60's, then they would suddenly become indispensable!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 15, 2016, 01:02:44 PM

I have not heard important parts of the competition in the works Pinnock recorded (basically only Brüggen, the few with Solomons I have and some on modern instruments) but I found his Sturm&Drang-Box (don't have 6-8) excellent and maybe the "safest" recommendation. It has very good playing and sound (no "odd noises" from old instruments), straightforward interpretations (skips a few repeats in longer movements, I think) and some discreet harpsichord contribution. His was my first larger partial Haydn symphony box, I think, but I do not remember exactly when I bought it, I had the two Solomons discs earlier, though.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 15, 2016, 01:12:29 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on April 15, 2016, 01:02:44 PM
I have not heard important parts of the competition in the works Pinnock recorded (basically only Brüggen, the few with Solomons I have and some on modern instruments) but I found his Sturm&Drang-Box (don't have 6-8) excellent and maybe the "safest" recommendation. It has very good playing and sound (no "odd noises" from old instruments), straightforward interpretations (skips a few repeats in longer movements, I think) and some discreet harpsichord contribution. His was my first larger partial Haydn symphony box, I think, but I do not remember exactly when I bought it, I had the two Solomons discs earlier, though.

Oh, no doubt, Pinnock is a very safe recommendation, I would be hard-pressed to justify any criticism of it. I only wish he hadn't stuck to the repertoire which is so much on a well-beaten path already. I think he could have made a bigger contribution in some of the rarer items. This is always a problem when you are dealing with such a large oeuvre as Haydn's; where do we begin??

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 16, 2016, 12:54:57 AM

I don't even know how much Pinnock had to say in things like that. These recordings were made in 1988-89, at the beginning/height of the CD boom. I have no idea if there ever were plans to do more; at the same time DG had already started the Haydn project with the Orpheus chamber orchestra (not sure if this was ever meant to be complete) and I also don't know how independent "Archiv" was from "DG" in 1990. And Archiv might have been more adventurous than DG but it seems that Haydn did not even sell very well at the height of the CD boom (otherwise why pull the plug on the almost complete Hogwood and the budding Weil sets in the 1990s?)

I don't know how and according to which criteria the "Sturm&Drang" set is picked but Brüggen did the same 19 pieces several years later (Hogwood has them spread across Vols. 5-7).
Understandable that works like 44,45 etc. are quite popular. But 58 and 65 vs. e.g. 73-81? Seems a strange effect.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 16, 2016, 08:20:21 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on April 16, 2016, 12:54:57 AM
I don't even know how much Pinnock had to say in things like that. These recordings were made in 1988-89, at the beginning/height of the CD boom. I have no idea if there ever were plans to do more; at the same time DG had already started the Haydn project with the Orpheus chamber orchestra (not sure if this was ever meant to be complete) and I also don't know how independent "Archiv" was from "DG" in 1990. And Archiv might have been more adventurous than DG but it seems that Haydn did not even sell very well at the height of the CD boom (otherwise why pull the plug on the almost complete Hogwood and the budding Weil sets in the 1990s?)

I don't know how and according to which criteria the "Sturm&Drang" set is picked but Brüggen did the same 19 pieces several years later (Hogwood has them spread across Vols. 5-7).
Understandable that works like 44,45 etc. are quite popular. But 58 and 65 vs. e.g. 73-81? Seems a strange effect.

Probably not a whole lot. I'm sure the Label did most of the choosing, perhaps disguised as 'would you like to do this or this?".

I think Haydn sales were drastically up during the period from 1975 to 2000, simply because of availability and also better quality and variety of performance material. Haydn sales will never match Mozart, Beethoven or Bach, but nothing else will either! That is only a disappointment if you entered with unrealistic expectations to begin with. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 17, 2016, 10:33:05 AM

In 1792, Haydn hit up on two genres he had not previously touched. While you may know the Sinfonia concertante, how many times have you seen a madrigal from the Late Classic Era!! I was curious about that myself, so I chased down some info this week. Hope you enjoy it. :)

Not just any storm! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2016/04/1792-the-music-part-2-.html)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on April 17, 2016, 02:00:14 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 17, 2016, 10:33:05 AM
In 1792, Haydn hit up on two genres he had not previously touched. While you may know the Sinfonia concertante, how many times have you seen a madrigal from the Late Classic Era!! I was curious about that myself, so I chased down some info this week. Hope you enjoy it. :)

Not just any storm! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2016/04/1792-the-music-part-2-.html)

A most welcome article. I have many favorites among Haydn's works but the Sinfonia concertante is in the top rank.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 17, 2016, 03:22:53 PM

Quote from: Old Listener on April 17, 2016, 02:00:14 PM
A most welcome article. I have many favorites among Haydn's works but the Sinfonia concertante is in the top rank.

Thanks, and I agree with you, I have been a fan of the SC since the first time I heard it. i discovered that when I really listened to it, it is far more intricate than I ever realized. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: carlito77 on April 28, 2016, 05:31:09 AM

Hi Gurn,

You're talking about one of my favorite composers, Mozart being the other. I remember reading about when Napoleon invaded Vienna, he gave strict instructions to his soldiers not to violate Haydn's house, or Haus. Haydn was sick at the time and was visited by Bonaparte's senior officers who played music and sang for him. This is the respect he had all over Europe.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2016, 06:19:46 AM

Quote from: carlito77 on April 28, 2016, 05:31:09 AM
Hi Gurn,

You're talking about one of my favorite composers, Mozart being the other. I remember reading about when Napoleon invaded Vienna, he gave strict instructions to his soldiers not to violate Haydn's house, or Haus. Haydn was sick at the time and was visited by Bonaparte's senior officers who played music and sang for him. This is the respect he had all over Europe.

Yes, absolutely. In the period after The Seasons in 1801 until his death in 1809, Haydn was a minor god all over Europe. His spectacular crash and burn in the years following were totally unrelated to either the man or his music, they were just a reflection of where society was going in the 19th century.

Well, in my opinion, your obviously impeccable good taste has led you right to the top of the composers pyramid. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 28, 2016, 06:24:07 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2016, 06:19:46 AM
Yes, absolutely. In the period after The Seasons in 1801 until his death in 1809, Haydn was a minor god all over Europe. His spectacular crash and burn in the years following were totally unrelated to either the man or his music, they were just a reflection of where society was going in the 19th century.

And in a handbasket, too! 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2016, 07:02:30 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on April 28, 2016, 06:24:07 AM
And in a handbasket, too! 8)

Amen, brother Karl! 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: carlito77 on April 29, 2016, 07:29:57 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2016, 06:19:46 AM
Yes, absolutely. In the period after The Seasons in 1801 until his death in 1809, Haydn was a minor god all over Europe. His spectacular crash and burn in the years following were totally unrelated to either the man or his music, they were just a reflection of where society was going in the 19th century.

Well, in my opinion, your obviously impeccable good taste has led you right to the top of the composers pyramid. :D

8)

Gurn, thanks for your comments but I'm not sure what you meant by crash and burn. What happened to Haydn during the waning years of his life?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 29, 2016, 07:56:03 AM

Quote from: carlito77 on April 29, 2016, 07:29:57 AM
Gurn, thanks for your comments but I'm not sure what you meant by crash and burn. What happened to Haydn during the waning years of his life?

Not during, after. Through most of the 19th century and into the 20th, Haydn was a forgotten man. His music was scarcely played, he was spoken of very patronizingly as a merry old man who wrote nothing but jolly feel-good music, not worth the attention of a 19th century connoisseur. You should be aware, though, that Mozart got basically the same treatment, so it wasn't specifically about Haydn. There are many good articles about this phenomenon, the problem is they are all written by musicologists so they are practically incomprehensible. My blog is only up to 1792 now, but one day I will be up to the century from 1810 to 1909 and I will spell it all out. It isn't pretty. Especially if you aren't a fan of 19th century music or culture, as I am not. >:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: carlito77 on April 29, 2016, 08:12:24 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 29, 2016, 07:56:03 AM
Not during, after. Through most of the 19th century and into the 20th, Haydn was a forgotten man. His music was scarcely played, he was spoken of very patronizingly as a merry old man who wrote nothing but jolly feel-good music, not worth the attention of a 19th century connoisseur. You should be aware, though, that Mozart got basically the same treatment, so it wasn't specifically about Haydn. There are many good articles about this phenomenon, the problem is they are all written by musicologists so they are practically incomprehensible. My blog is only up to 1792 now, but one day I will be up to the century from 1810 to 1909 and I will spell it all out. It isn't pretty. Especially if you aren't a fan of 19th century music or culture, as I am not. >:D

8)

Gurn, you should write a book.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on April 29, 2016, 08:15:10 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 29, 2016, 07:56:03 AMIt isn't pretty. Especially if you aren't a fan of 19th century music or culture, as I am not. >:D

8)

Well, I have to wonder whether it will look pretty to someone who finds a fair bit to appreciate in 19th century culture... 8)
This happened to Rococo painters too, of course. In with Delacroix, Friedrich and Turner, out with Boucher, Fragonard and Watteau.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 29, 2016, 08:33:30 AM

Quote from: carlito77 on April 29, 2016, 08:12:24 AM
Gurn, you should write a book.

Thanks, I will take that suggestion to heart! :)

Quote from: North Star on April 29, 2016, 08:15:10 AM
Well, I have to wonder whether it will look pretty to someone who finds a fair bit to appreciate in 19th century culture... 8)
This happened to Rococo painters too, of course. In with Delacroix, Friedrich and Turner, out with Boucher, Fragonard and Watteau.

It shouldn't, it should be a source of embarrassment. I haven't always been put off by the 19th century, it wasn't until I discovered more about it. Yes, painters be damned too! Of course, there were lots of reasons for this change, but the big ones were the demise of pan-Europeanism with the rise of Nationalism, and the Class realignments brought on by the fall of the Aristocracy and the rise of a nouveau riche middle - upper class. To my way of thinking, The Enlightenment brought about its own downfall by causing people to think. As soon as that happened, they realized how screwed they were and things just had to change! There was probably more than that, but for MY purposes, that was all it took to sink Classic Art and Music. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 29, 2016, 08:35:26 AM

Fortunately, we are in AD 2016. There is no reason not to enjoy both Haydn and Liszt or both Watteau and Friedrich. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on April 29, 2016, 08:44:05 AM

Quote from: carlito77 on April 29, 2016, 08:12:24 AM
Gurn, you should write a book.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 29, 2016, 08:33:30 AM
Thanks, I will take that suggestion to heart! :)

I recall I loved this quote when, 25 years ago, I watched Basic Instinct:

QuoteNick: How's your new book coming along?
Catherine: It's practically writing itself.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on April 29, 2016, 09:01:20 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 29, 2016, 08:33:30 AMIt shouldn't, it should be a source of embarrassment. I haven't always been put off by the 19th century, it wasn't until I discovered more about it. Yes, painters be damned too! Of course, there were lots of reasons for this change, but the big ones were the demise of pan-Europeanism with the rise of Nationalism, and the Class realignments brought on by the fall of the Aristocracy and the rise of a nouveau riche middle - upper class. To my way of thinking, The Enlightenment brought about its own downfall by causing people to think. As soon as that happened, they realized how screwed they were and things just had to change! There was probably more than that, but for MY purposes, that was all it took to sink Classic Art and Music. :-\

8)

Certainly Enlightenment led directly to Romanticism. I don't see how there was anything faintly resembling sinking in art or music, though, with composers like Schumann, Chopin, Berlioz, and Mendelssohn. As for visual arts, the principal direction during the 19th century was up, or that's how I perceive it anyway.

Quote from: Florestan on April 29, 2016, 08:35:26 AM
Fortunately, we are in AD 2016. There is no reason not to enjoy both Haydn and Liszt or both Watteau and Friedrich. 8)

Exactly.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 29, 2016, 09:25:29 AM

Quote from: North Star on April 29, 2016, 09:01:20 AM
Certainly Enlightenment led directly to Romanticism.

Just as Napoleon directly engendered German nationalism.

Quote
I don't see how there was anything faintly resembling sinking in art or music, though, with composers like Schumann, Chopin, Berlioz, and Mendelssohn.

Weber, Schubert, Liszt, Brahms, Dvorak, Bruckner, Mahler, Wagner... Rossini, Bellini, Donizetti, Verdi... Franck, Bizet, Saint-Saens, Faure, Chausson... Glinka, Tchaikovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, Mussorgsky, Taneyev... etc etc etc.

The 19th century was simply glorious --- not only in music but also in literature and painting.

I should start the Florestan´s Romantic Drawing Room thread.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on April 29, 2016, 09:33:30 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 29, 2016, 09:25:29 AM
Just as Napoleon directly engendered German nationalism.

Ah yes, Napoleon - the poster child of Enlightenment thought. 0:)

QuoteSchubert, Liszt, Brahms, Dvorak, Bruckner, Mahler, Wagner... Rossini, Bellini, Donizetti, Verdi... Franck, Bizet, Saint-Saens, Faure, Chausson... Glinka, Tchaikovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, Mussorgsky, Taneyev... etc etc etc.

The 19th century was simply glorious --- not only in music but also in literature and painting.

I only focused on the first-generation Romantics, and not the predecessor Schubert, or what followed, but yes, lots of good stuff, by some of the composers you mention, too. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 29, 2016, 10:10:23 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 29, 2016, 08:35:26 AM
Fortunately, we are in AD 2016. There is no reason not to enjoy both Haydn and Liszt or both Watteau and Friedrich. 8)

Absolutely! Enjoy, not enjoy; one of the wonders of Liberty! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 29, 2016, 10:10:43 AM

Quote from: Gordo on April 29, 2016, 08:44:05 AM
I recall I loved this quote when, 25 years ago, I watched Basic Instinct:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 29, 2016, 10:16:30 AM

Quote from: North Star on April 29, 2016, 09:01:20 AM
Certainly Enlightenment led directly to Romanticism. I don't see how there was anything faintly resembling sinking in art or music, though, with composers like Schumann, Chopin, Berlioz, and Mendelssohn. As for visual arts, the principal direction during the 19th century was up, or that's how I perceive it anyway.
Exactly.

A change doesn't have to be "sinking" to cause a person to like or dislike it relatively. I find much 19th century music to be overly verbose, and I don't get nearly as much enjoyment out of most symphonies, for example, where a movement can last longer than an entire Classic Era symphony! I hope you aren't saying that I'm not entitled to that for myself. There are plenty of good tunes though, I completely agree with that. As for the art, I rather like Baroque or Rococo classic representational art. I really like 19th century art at about the time that Impressionism came along. In between, there was plenty of good stuff. I don't see the degeneration in painting that I see in music. We all like what we like.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on April 29, 2016, 10:22:09 AM

re: Basic Instinct

I remember another part from that film much better. :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 29, 2016, 10:23:13 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 29, 2016, 09:25:29 AM
Just as Napoleon directly engendered German nationalism.

Weber, Schubert, Liszt, Brahms, Dvorak, Bruckner, Mahler, Wagner... Rossini, Bellini, Donizetti, Verdi... Franck, Bizet, Saint-Saens, Faure, Chausson... Glinka, Tchaikovsky, Rimsky-Korsakov, Mussorgsky, Taneyev... etc etc etc.

The 19th century was simply glorious --- not only in music but also in literature and painting.

I should start the Florestan´s Romantic Drawing Room thread.

Napoleon directly engendered a lot of things. I wouldn't limit the Nationalism thing to just Germany, the whole continent (think Italy, the Austro-Hungarian empire, France etc.) all underwent huge political change.

You really need to look into Romanticism though. There is German Romanticism and then there is everything else. They are not the same, so you shouldn't lump all those people under one heading. Think 1848. While in America everyone was heading for California, in Europe, they were all consolidating into countries whose names we know today.

Personally, I preferred the pan-European era... :-\

8)

(PS - I like your Romantic Drawing Room idea. this would be a great topic to start it out with, considering how non-Haydnish it is!)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on April 29, 2016, 10:39:50 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 29, 2016, 10:16:30 AM
A change doesn't have to be "sinking" to cause a person to like or dislike it relatively.

I agree, but that's how you phrased it. ;)

QuoteI find much 19th century music to be overly verbose, and I don't get nearly as much enjoyment out of most symphonies, for example, where a movement can last longer than an entire Classic Era symphony! I hope you aren't saying that I'm not entitled to that for myself. There are plenty of good tunes though, I completely agree with that.

There certainly is much verbosity in some 19th century music, and indeed in orchestral and operatic music in particular. But there's obviously much more to 19th century music than that, with chamber music, lieder and short piano pieces. But yes, frivolity was expunged from 'serious' music.

QuoteAs for the art, I rather like Baroque or Rococo classic representational art. I really like 19th century art at about the time that Impressionism came along. In between, there was plenty of good stuff. I don't see the degeneration in painting that I see in music. We all like what we like.

8)

Oh, the Baroque was a great period for visual arts, there's no doubt about that, with artists like Rembrandt, Vermeer, Rubens, van Dyck, Caravaggio, and Velázquez. And there's plenty of beautiful Rococo art too, of course. "About the time Impressionism came along" must mean, apart from the early efforts of those people, the Barbizon school, among other things? I'm quite partial to them myself.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 29, 2016, 10:23:13 AMYou really need to look into Romanticism though. There is German Romanticism and then there is everything else. They are not the same, so you shouldn't lump all those people under one heading. Think 1848. While in America everyone was heading for California, in Europe, they were all consolidating into countries whose names we know today.

Very true indeed.

Quote(PS - I like your Romantic Drawing Room idea. this would be a great topic to start it out with, considering how non-Haydnish it is!)

Agreed.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on April 29, 2016, 10:46:21 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 29, 2016, 10:23:13 AM
Personally, I preferred the pan-European era... :-\

How old are you??! :o

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 29, 2016, 11:28:27 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 29, 2016, 10:23:13 AM
(PS - I like your Romantic Drawing Room idea. this would be a great topic to start it out with, considering how non-Haydnish it is!)

Quote from: North Star on April 29, 2016, 10:39:50 AM
Agreed.

Thanks for the encouragement. I´ll do it one of these days. Stay tuned. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 29, 2016, 12:59:41 PM

The 19th century brought the "small forms" in music to full fruition: Schubert's lieder and what follows in that genre, the piano pieces by Chopin, Schumann and others. It is a fairly skewed way to describe romantic music as generally "verbose" (There are very few symphonies before Bruckner longer than Beethoven's 3rd or 9th and most romantic concerti until Brahms are on a considerably smaller scale than Beethoven's violin concerto of 5th piano concerto.)

It is also untrue that Haydn was forgotten; he was highly thought of by e.g. Mendelssohn and Brahms and several of his works like the late oratorios, some of the late symphonies and string quartets remained in the repertoire (and Gurn knows that, of course, he just loves to exaggerate).
Of course he was overshadowed by Beethoven (and to some extent by Mozart) but this is simply the way of the world as long as most music played is roughly contemporary, even of Mozart's greatest operas some (Cosi fan tutte and Idomeneo) were virtually forgotten until the 20th century.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 29, 2016, 02:39:14 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on April 29, 2016, 12:59:41 PM
The 19th century brought the "small forms" in music to full fruition: Schubert's lieder and what follows in that genre, the piano pieces by Chopin, Schumann and others. It is a fairly skewed way to describe romantic music as generally "verbose" (There are very few symphonies before Bruckner longer than Beethoven's 3rd or 9th and most romantic concerti until Brahms are on a considerably smaller scale than Beethoven's violin concerto of 5th piano concerto.)

It is also untrue that Haydn was forgotten; he was highly thought of by e.g. Mendelssohn and Brahms and several of his works like the late oratorios, some of the late symphonies and string quartets remained in the repertoire (and Gurn knows that, of course, he just loves to exaggerate).
Of course he was overshadowed by Beethoven (and to some extent by Mozart) but this is simply the way of the world as long as most music played is roughly contemporary, even of Mozart's greatest operas some (Cosi fan tutte and Idomeneo) were virtually forgotten until the 20th century.

:) Well, yes, of course, I do exaggerate a teeny bit. But neither was he as well treated as you are seeming to imply either.

For Mozart, Don Giovanni and Die Zauberflöte never left the repertoire. The only really durable instrumental works were the minor key ones, like the d minor piano concerto and the g minor symphony. Much of the remainder were considered to be 'rococo bon-bons'.

As for Haydn, while there were the occasional acknowledgements of his greatness, by and large they were made in a very condescending sort of way. But you're right, nothing is ever 100%, and I wasn't meaning to imply that.

If you have access to the Cambridge Companion to Haydn, you should read this essay, Haydn and posterity: The long nineteenth century by James Garrett. It is eye-opening just how harsh the jostling to get into the 'Canon of Great Works' really was! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 29, 2016, 09:27:25 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 29, 2016, 02:39:14 PM
If you have access to the Cambridge Companion to Haydn, you should read this essay, Haydn and posterity: The long nineteenth century by James Garrett. It is eye-opening just how harsh the jostling to get into the 'Canon of Great Works' really was! :)

Thanks to Google Books it can be read online and this is a very good thing, because actually the article presents a much more cautious and nuanced picture than Gurn´s. :D

Some excerpts:

One misconception is that a uniform picture of Haydn was articulated throughout the period: that commentators were united in wiewing Haydn as aesthetically and culturally irrelevant.

[T]he views of a handful of well-known figures - Berlioz, Schumann and Wagner - do not represent those of the majority, nor do they provide a true indication of Haydn´s music in contemporary concert life.

In spite of the lack of enthusiasm for Haydn´s music on the part of many commentators, his music (or rather, a small proportion of it) was regularly performed throughout the ninteeenth century; indeed, a key factor motivating lukewarm reviews was their perceived ubiquity in the concert hall.

The notion that Haydn´s music was superseded was the product of the dialectical systems employed by these authors: it would be mistaken to assume that their stances reflect a wider hostility or indifference to the composer.

[T]he marginalization of Haydn by some of the most prominent nineteenth century critics represents only one side of the picture: the enduring cultivation of his music in the concert hall and its prominence in schools and domestic settings, while harder to quantify, are no less important.

The final lines read thus:

[...]one thing is clear: to regard Haydn´s posthumous fate as a tale of decline and fall, especially in the century following his death, is an oversimplification that hampers our understanding of his cultural significance.

Moreover, Garrett stresses that his essay focuses almost exclusively on the German-speaking world and that the situation was different in continental Europe, Britain and North America, although he doesn´t go into details.

All this is quite far from the "nineteenth century´s all-out war on Haydn", as Gurn put it a few years ago. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 30, 2016, 06:32:07 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 29, 2016, 09:27:25 PM
Thanks to Google Books it can be read online and this is a very good thing, because actually the article presents a much more cautious and nuanced picture than Gurn´s. :D

Some excerpts:

One misconception is that a uniform picture of Haydn was articulated throughout the period: that commentators were united in wiewing Haydn as aesthetically and culturally irrelevant.

[T]he views of a handful of well-known figures - Berlioz, Schumann and Wagner - do not represent those of the majority, nor do they provide a true indication of Haydn´s music in contemporary concert life.

In spite of the lack of enthusiasm for Haydn´s music on the part of many commentators, his music (or rather, a small proportion of it) was regularly performed throughout the ninteeenth century; indeed, a key factor motivating lukewarm reviews was their perceived ubiquity in the concert hall.

The notion that Haydn´s music was superseded was the product of the dialectical systems employed by these authors: it would be mistaken to assume that their stances reflect a wider hostility or indifference to the composer.

[T]he marginalization of Haydn by some of the most prominent nineteenth century critics represents only one side of the picture: the enduring cultivation of his music in the concert hall and its prominence in schools and domestic settings, while harder to quantify, are no less important.

The final lines read thus:

[...]one thing is clear: to regard Haydn´s posthumous fate as a tale of decline and fall, especially in the century following his death, is an oversimplification that hampers our understanding of his cultural significance.

Moreover, Garrett stresses that his essay focuses almost exclusively on the German-speaking world and that the situation was different in continental Europe, Britain and North America, although he doesn´t go into details.

All this is quite far from the "nineteenth century´s all-out war on Haydn", as Gurn put it a few years ago. :)

What you aren't saying though, either if it isn't in that particular essay or else it doesn't suit you to say it, is that when he says "the enduring cultivation of his music in the concert halls" is that we aren't talking about all of Haydn's music, by any means, we are talking about a few of the London Symphonies. And they were heavily reworked to reflect 'modern' orchestration principles, and to systematically remove all of Haydn's own little quirks (unexpected rhythms or harmonic tones, for example) since they weren't acceptable to modern tastes. The Creation and The Seasons were still sung by small town choral societies. And most string quartets had a few pieces of Haydn in their repertoire. Not least because he was considered a good source of pedagogical material for beginning string players. Much like his (and Mozart's) piano sonatas were used as teaching aids, almost exclusively.

Even today, Haydn hasn't completely recovered the stature he had when he died. True, his symphonies show up fairly often on a program. They are nearly always the opening act, the piece played while patrons are still wandering in to find their seats. In any concert in the late 18th century, they would have been the showpiece.

So your optimistic, best possible interpretation of one of many items of research on this topic doesn't really change my mind. As I said, I don't mean he totally disappeared, things don't happen that way. But the higher one climbs, the further is the fall. And he fell a long way, no matter how cheery a face you try to put on it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 30, 2016, 06:39:59 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 30, 2016, 06:32:07 AM
What you aren't saying though, either if it isn't in that particular essay or else it doesn't suit you to say it, is that when he says "the enduring cultivation of his music in the concert halls" is that we aren't talking about all of Haydn's music, by any means, we are talking about a few of the London Symphonies. And they were heavily reworked to reflect 'modern' orchestration principles, and to systematically remove all of Haydn's own little quirks (unexpected rhythms or harmonic tones, for example) since they weren't acceptable to modern tastes. The Creation and The Seasons were still sung by small town choral societies. And most string quartets had a few pieces of Haydn in their repertoire. Not least because he was considered a good source of pedagogical material for beginning string players. Much like his (and Mozart's) piano sonatas were used as teaching aids, almost exclusively.

Even today, Haydn hasn't completely recovered the stature he had when he died. True, his symphonies show up fairly often on a program. They are nearly always the opening act, the piece played while patrons are still wandering in to find their seats. In any concert in the late 18th century, they would have been the showpiece.

So your optimistic, best possible interpretation of one of many items of research on this topic doesn't really change my mind. As I said, I don't mean he totally disappeared, things don't happen that way. But the higher one climbs, the further is the fall. And he fell a long way, no matter how cheery a face you try to put on it. :)

8)

Seems like your quarrel is more with Garrett than with me. I did nothing else but quoting him. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 30, 2016, 06:45:07 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 30, 2016, 06:39:59 AM
Seems like your quarrel is more with Garrett than with me. I did nothing else but quoting him. :)

As you say, there were pages missing from the selection you had. I haven't read that particular essay in a year or so, I can't remember if he ever got around to discussing the points I raised or not. However, I will just say, whether it is to Garrett or to Florestan; if someone came on this board and said they were very familiar with Haydn, they knew all 6 London symphonies and The Creation, or they were very familiar with Mozart, they knew the d minor concerto, the Jupiter Symphony AND Don Giovanni, would you give much credence to what they had to say about either of those composers? I'm guessing not... 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 30, 2016, 06:53:00 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 30, 2016, 06:45:07 AM
if someone came on this board and said they were very familiar with Haydn, they knew all 6 London symphonies and The Creation,

How many other of his symphonies, or for that matter other genres of his music, had been published and were widely known in, say, 1830? 1860? 1900 even? IIRC, Mandiczewsky's edition was published in 1922 and Hoboken's in 1957.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 30, 2016, 07:14:46 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 30, 2016, 06:53:00 AM
How many other of his symphonies, or for that matter other genres of his music, had been published and were widely known in, say, 1830? 1860? 1900 even? IIRC, Mandiczewsky's edition was published in 1922 and Hoboken's in 1957.

A great many of them were published during his lifetime, but they didn't remain in circulation. Farewell is one of the few I have heard about. Pleyel's "Complete String Quartets" was the only real source of fairly accurate source material. The impetus for a gradual rediscovery of his works was the 1909 centennial of his death. It was one of many false starts, but it got things moving. BTW, without doing research (I'm busy right now), I would say Eusebius Mandyczewski published c1907. No matter though, the important thing is he got it right. Amazing!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 30, 2016, 08:19:22 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 30, 2016, 07:14:46 AM
A great many of them were published during his lifetime, but they didn't remain in circulation. Farewell is one of the few I have heard about.

There! How could they (the 19th-century people, that is) know the real scope of Haydn's work if most of it remained obscure all throughout the century?

QuoteThe impetus for a gradual rediscovery of his works was the 1909 centennial of his death.

You mean that in the heydays of late Late Romanticism they commemorated Haydn?. :D

QuoteI would say Eusebius Mandyczewski published c1907.

You are right.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 30, 2016, 06:32:07 AM
Even today, Haydn hasn't completely recovered the stature he had when he died.

Several complete symphonic cycles recorded. Ditto the string quartets, keyboard sonatas and keyboard trios. Ditto the major operas. Ditto the concertos. Ditto the masses. Heck, even such obscurities as his baryton trios and concertos for lira organizzata have been recorded in complete. You know better than anyone that today, except a few items, all his oeuvre has been recorded, the major genres and works much more than once. If this doesn't mean he's one of the most popular composers among both performers and audience then I don't know what it means. :laugh:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: carlito77 on April 30, 2016, 08:28:19 AM

Interesting that Haydn composed more symphonies than Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart combined yet still so underrated.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 30, 2016, 08:31:18 AM

Quote from: carlito77 on April 30, 2016, 08:28:19 AM
Interesting that Haydn composed more symphonies than Bach, Beethoven, and Mozart combined yet still so underrated.

Well, JS Bach composed the grand total of zero symphonies. :laugh:

Regardless of what has happened in the past, today Haydn is anything but underrated. See my post above.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 30, 2016, 09:05:56 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 30, 2016, 08:19:22 AM
There! How could they (the 19th-century people, that is) know the real scope of Haydn's work if most of it remained obscure all throughout the century?

It was only obscure because the people who managed such things didn't wish to be bothered with it. In the mid 20th century, when Jens Larsen and later, Robbins-Landon, wanted to look at the other works, they had no problem digging up both printed published scores and in most cases, manuscripts.

QuoteYou mean that in the heydays of late Late Romanticism they commemorated Haydn?. :D

Yes, in a half-assed sort of way. You know, Debussy wrote an Hommage a Haydn, and so did some others. This wasn't just a random coincidence, it was commissioned by a committee who were trying to arrange a celebration. Breitkopf and Hartel also began a 'Complete Works', but it didn't get very far. It was all sort of a dutiful thing. The first influential writer I am aware of who really realized the value of Haydn's music and tried to push it forward was Donald Tovey, and that was in the 1920's and '30's.

QuoteSeveral complete symphonic cycles recorded. Ditto the string quartets, keyboard sonatas and keyboard trios. Ditto the major operas. Ditto the concertos. Ditto the masses. Heck, even such obscurities as his baryton trios and concertos for lira organizzata have been recorded in complete. You know better than anyone that today, except a few items, all his oeuvre has been recorded, the major genres and works much more than once. If this doesn't mean he's one of the most popular composers among both performers and audience then I don't know what it means. :laugh:

Yes, well, I was talking about concert hall performances. In these days of individual control over ones own listening, anything is possible. And for every completed cycle, there is one which is incomplete. Period instruments are what boosted Haydn's reputation yet only 2 months ago did it become possible to get a complete symphony cycle on period instruments! I have 3 or 4 sets of Mozart's dances, and a couple of Beethoven's too, but none of Haydn's other than a few singles. The baryton and Scottish song cycles only came available within the last 10 years, one of each. Hardly an overwhelming flood. Most recordings are cherry-picked repertoire, so I have dozens of the London Sonatas, but only a very few of many of the earlier ones. So you are right about availability (if you are fortunate enough to get your hands on some), but I would still say he is underrepresented in the catalog overall, where I personally have 109 recordings of Beethoven's 9th symphony and could easily double that if I felt like spending the money. With Haydn, I DO feel like spending the money, but there is little to spend it on that I don't already have, with just an occasional drop coming out of the pipeline.

Of course, we can play the 'cup half full/empty game' forever. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 30, 2016, 09:06:59 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 30, 2016, 08:31:18 AM
Well, JS Bach composed the grand total of zero symphonies. :laugh:

Regardless of what has happened in the past, today Haydn is anything but underrated. See my post above.

True, but you could put JC & CPE's total output in that equation and still be on the losing end. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 30, 2016, 09:35:22 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 30, 2016, 09:05:56 AM
I personally have 109 recordings of Beethoven's 9th symphony

Do you really need all of them? Can you tell the 36th from the 107th on a blind test? :D

How many Surprise do you have?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on April 30, 2016, 09:46:49 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 30, 2016, 09:05:56 AM
... I personally have 109 recordings of Beethoven's 9th symphony

Are all of these physical media?
Do you program your year to play each of them one time per year?
Has your woman told you if you bring one more of those &%#$@ things into this house, you or I are out the door, mister! ? :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 30, 2016, 11:51:51 AM

Quote from: Scion7 on April 30, 2016, 09:46:49 AM
Are all of these physical media?
Do you program your year to play each of them one time per year?
Has your woman told you if you bring one more of those &%#$@ things into this house, you or I are out the door, mister! ? :P

No, there are 2 that are radio-only recordings, NYPO/Boulez and a Chailly that was done the year before the studio recording. Also 2 on DVD, one is Gardiner Live from Carnegie Hall and the other is the Berliners/Abbado from Rome, that set. The rest are CD's.

No, she's cool with it. She knows I could be out raising hell instead of doing what I do, so she is good with that. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: carlito77 on April 30, 2016, 11:53:37 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 30, 2016, 08:31:18 AM
Well, JS Bach composed the grand total of zero symphonies. :laugh:

Regardless of what has happened in the past, today Haydn is anything but underrated. See my post above.

Florestan, I say underrated because as I stated in my first post that a lot of these so-called experts do not consider him in the top 10 list of greatest composers in history. One so-called expert is Antony Tommasini, NY Times classical music critic. His list puts Debussy, Stravinski, Bartok and even Shulbert above Haydn. Interesting that he doesn't even include Handel and Vivaldi in the top 10 list. This is the link to his article: http://onpoint.wbur.org/2011/02/02/classical-tommasini

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 30, 2016, 11:54:20 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 30, 2016, 09:35:22 AM
Do you really need all of them? Can you tell the 36th from the 107th on a blind test? :D

How many Surprise do you have?

No, but I don't care to do that. When I am choosing one on Sunday morning, I remember, looking down through them, which ones I haven't heard recently, and also the general characteristics of each (fast, slow, great soloists, great choral, etc). That's all I need, really. It is much better for me than just having just one version to listen to every Sunday for years! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 30, 2016, 11:57:40 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 30, 2016, 09:35:22 AM

How many Surprise do you have?

Apparently I have 12 Symphony 94's. All the PI ones, of course, and a few modern. I also have 3 different performances of the Salomon chamber arrangement. So I'm all set there, I guess (until some new one comes along). :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on April 30, 2016, 12:10:45 PM

Quote from: carlito77 on April 30, 2016, 11:53:37 AM
Florestan, I say underrated because as I stated in my first post that a lot of these so-called experts do not consider him in the top 10 list of greatest composers in history. One so-called expert is Antony Tommasini, NY Times classical music critic. His list puts Debussy, Stravinski, Bartok and even Shulbert above Haydn. Interesting that he doesn't even include Handel and Vivaldi in the top 10 list. This is the link to his article: http://onpoint.wbur.org/2011/02/02/classical-tommasini

I do agree that putting Shulbert above Haydn is an outrage. There is a strong case to be made for including Schubert on such a list, though. But this list is rather obviously biased, as Bach is the only one who didn't live during the 19th century. No Monteverdi, Josquin, Dufay or Machaut either on the list.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: ritter on April 30, 2016, 12:18:18 PM

Quote from: North Star on April 30, 2016, 12:10:45 PM
I do agree that putting Shulbert above Haydn is an outrage. But this list is rather obviously biased, as Bach is the only one who didn't live during the 19th century. No Monteverdi, Josquin, Dufay or Machaut either on the list.

...and I see nothing outrageous in including Debussy, Stravinsky and Bartók in the list. What I really find absurd is the inclusion of Giuseppe Verdi (and, yes, the exclusion Haydn)...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on April 30, 2016, 12:34:46 PM

Quote from: ritter on April 30, 2016, 12:18:18 PM
...and I see nothing outrageous in including Debussy, Stravinsky and Bartók in the list. What I really find absurd is the inclusion of Giuseppe Verdi (and, yes, the exclusion Haydn)...

Oh, I share the lack of outrage, and the feeling of absurdity.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: ritter on April 30, 2016, 12:46:51 PM

Quote from: North Star on April 30, 2016, 12:34:46 PM
Oh, I share the lack of outrage, and the feeling of absurdity.

;)

Good evening to you, sir!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 01, 2016, 05:02:04 AM

Quote from: carlito77 on April 30, 2016, 11:53:37 AM
Florestan, I say underrated because as I stated in my first post that a lot of these so-called experts do not consider him in the top 10 list of greatest composers in history. One so-called expert is Antony Tommasini, NY Times classical music critic. His list puts Debussy, Stravinski, Bartok and even Shulbert above Haydn. Interesting that he doesn't even include Handel and Vivaldi in the top 10 list. This is the link to his article: http://onpoint.wbur.org/2011/02/02/classical-tommasini

Carlito, when it comes to enjoying the music we love who needs, or care about, experts? I certainly don't. My top 10 list includes both Haydn and Schubert and no expert will ever change it. The fact that somebody, somewhere (be it even the NYT classical music critic) has a different list which excludes both composers doesn't bother or affect me in the least, nor does it detract a iota from my enjoying their music --- I love what I love, they love what they love and the Earth is large enough for all of us to live happily everafter. Besides, there are experts and experts: there are those who write about music, like your Tommasini* (of whom I had never heard before reading your post) and there are those who make music, like, say, Hogwood or Dorati or Rudolf Buchbinder or the Buchberger Quartet or the Beaux-Arts Trio. The wisest thing to do is stick to the latter and forget about the former (who on the historical time scale are already forgotten anyway...)

* which, btw, is perfectly entitled to his opinion, just as we are to ours.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 01, 2016, 05:15:27 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 30, 2016, 09:05:56 AM
Of course, we can play the 'cup half full/empty game' forever. :)

It's not that much a question of "half full / half empty cup" but of historical perspective and sense of proportion.

The 19th-century detractors of Haydn are long since dead and buried. Most of them are also completely forgotten. Today Haydn is once again one of the most popular composers among performers and audiences alike. There is no dearth of good / excellent recordings of Haydn's works and --- best thing of all --- they are just one click and a pittance (if any at all) away. There have never been, Haydn's own times included, more and better opportunities to hear his music in top performances than today --- heck, one doesn't even have to get outside one's home for that.

Yet it seems that this situation is somehow not completely satisfactory to you because in eighteen-something somebody somewhere trashed Haydn!... Get over it, man, this is 2016 AD, fer Chrissake! Who cares about that anymore, except you? :laugh:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 01, 2016, 08:21:08 AM

Quote from: Florestan on May 01, 2016, 05:15:27 AM
It's not that much a question of "half full / half empty cup" but of historical perspective and sense of proportion.

The 19th-century detractors of Haydn are long since dead and buried. Most of them are also completely forgotten. Today Haydn is once again one of the most popular composers among performers and audiences alike. There is no dearth of good / excellent recordings of Haydn's works and --- best thing of all --- they are just one click and a pittance (if any at all) away. There have never been, Haydn's own times included, more and better opportunities to hear his music in top performances than today --- heck, one doesn't even have to get outside one's home for that.

Yet it seems that this situation is somehow not completely satisfactory to you because in eighteen-something somebody somewhere trashed Haydn!... Get over it, man, this is 2016 AD, fer Chrissake! Who cares about that anymore, except you? :laugh:

Oh, I doubt it is just me. No matter.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on May 01, 2016, 08:29:18 AM

Haydn was, is, and will always be in the top pantheon of Classical music.
Even if one wished to, extracting and ejecting him would be like removing the aorta - the patient would quickly die.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 01, 2016, 08:31:19 AM

Quote from: Scion7 on May 01, 2016, 08:29:18 AM
Haydn was, is, and will always be in the top pantheon of Classical music.
Even if one wished to, extracting and ejecting him would be like removing the aorta - the patient would quickly die.

And don't let Florestan tell you otherwise... :D

(please, it was just a joke!)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on May 01, 2016, 09:02:08 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 01, 2016, 08:31:19 AM
And don't let Florestan tell you otherwise...

He's only still around because he hasn't yet crossed the Borgo Pass ... after dark ... (http://www.badassoftheweek.com/christopherlee1a.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 01, 2016, 10:12:34 AM

Quote from: Scion7 on May 01, 2016, 09:02:08 AM
He's only still around because he hasn't yet crossed the Borgo Pass ... after dark ...

I am a fellow countryman of Vlad the Impaler and I had read all of Poe's stories before I turned 18, so your "Borgo Pass after dark" is as frightening to me as a stroll in the Central Park at noon. ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on May 01, 2016, 10:23:40 AM

Vlad Tepes was a Wallachian (Romanian) - I am talking about Stoker's Székely character (which makes him Hungarian).
So bring your Vlach self into my domain - I will toss you in with my Slovak henchmen to do my bidding ... heh ... heh ... heh

<grinning bat emoticon> <dancing Székely emoticon> <really bad dude emoticon>

"central park at noon" - don't go to Manhattan! :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 01, 2016, 10:27:53 AM

Quote from: Scion7 on May 01, 2016, 10:23:40 AM
Vlad Tepes was a Wallachian (Romanian) - I am talking about Stoker's Székely character (which makes him Hungarian).
So bring your Vlach self into my domain - I will toss you in with my Slovak henchmen to do my bidding ... heh ... heh ... heh

Just go tell a Szekely he is a Hungarian --- and be prepared to seek and find sweet asylum in Wallachia... ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on May 01, 2016, 10:39:41 AM

Quote from: Florestan on May 01, 2016, 10:27:53 AM
Just go tell a Szekely he is a Hungarian --- and be prepared to seek and find sweet asylum in Wallachia... ;D ;D ;D

My lady is a Hungarian nurse - she has origins in Szekely-land - they speak Hungarian there. It's got a different accent, of course - Arpad left a rear-guard in the mountains as he moved forward on his errand of destruction.

Anyway, Stoker was Irish - he got things all mixed up. :laugh: Based on Dracula's speech, it's impossible to really say who he was!

"We Szekelys have a right to be proud, for in our veins flows the blood of many brave races who fought as the lion fights, for lordship. Here, in the whirlpool of European races, the Ugric tribe bore down from Iceland the fighting spirit which Thor and Wodin gave them, which their Berserkers displayed to such fell intent on the seaboards of Europe, aye, and of Asia and Africa too, till the peoples thought that the werewolves themselves had come. Here, too, when they came, they found the Huns, whose warlike fury had swept the earth like a living flame, till the dying peoples held that in their veins ran the blood of those old witches, who, expelled from Scythia had mated with the devils in the desert. Fools, fools! What devil or what witch was ever so great as Attila, whose blood is in these veins?" He held up his arms. "Is it a wonder that we were a conquering race, that we were proud, that when the Magyar, the Lombard, the Avar, the Bulgar, or the Turk poured his thousands on our frontiers, we drove them back? Is it strange that when Arpad and his legions swept through the Hungarian fatherland he found us here when he reached the frontier, that the Honfoglalas was completed there? And when the Hungarian flood swept eastward, the Szekelys were claimed as kindred by the victorious Magyars, and to us for centuries was trusted the guarding of the frontier of Turkeyland. Aye, and more than that, endless duty of the frontier guard, for as the Turks say, 'water sleeps, and the enemy is sleepless.' Who more gladly than we throughout the Four Nations received the 'bloody sword,' or at its warlike call flocked quicker to the standard of the King? When was redeemed that great shame of my nation, the shame of Cassova, when the flags of the Wallach and the Magyar went down beneath the Crescent? Who was it but one of my own race who as Voivode crossed the Danube and beat the Turk on his own ground? This was a Dracula indeed! Woe was it that his own unworthy brother, when he had fallen, sold his people to the Turk and brought the shame of slavery on them! Was it not this Dracula, indeed, who inspired that other of his race who in a later age again and again brought his forces over the great river into Turkeyland, who, when he was beaten back, came again, and again, though he had to come alone from the bloody field where his troops were being slaughtered, since he knew that he alone could ultimately triumph! They said that he thought only of himself. Bah! What good are peasants without a leader? Where ends the war without a brain and heart to conduct it? Again, when, after the battle of Mohacs, we threw off the Hungarian yoke, we of the Dracula blood were amongst their leaders, for our spirit would not brook that we were not free. Ah, young sir, the Szekelys, and the Dracula as their heart's blood, their brains, and their swords, can boast a record that mushroom growths like the Hapsburgs and the Romanoffs can never reach. The warlike days are over. Blood is too precious a thing in these days of dishonourable peace, and the glories of the great races are as a tale that is told."

Gurn: (quietly) Doesn't anyone want to talk about Haydn?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 01, 2016, 10:45:31 AM

Quote from: Scion7 on May 01, 2016, 10:39:41 AM
Stoker was Irish - he got things all mixed up. :laugh:

Truth is, he was as clueless as it got. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 01, 2016, 10:48:20 AM

Doesn't anyone want to talk about Haydn?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 01, 2016, 10:53:14 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 01, 2016, 10:48:20 AM
Doesn't anyone want to talk about Haydn?

Yes! Haydn was the epitome of civilization --- so let's get rid of these Huns asap! ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on May 01, 2016, 11:07:58 AM

The Huns died with Attila! Magyarization, I saaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

<weasel-fur-covered axe-wielding Finno-Ugric berserk don't-spare-the-children warrior emoticon>

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 01, 2016, 11:16:13 AM

Quote from: Scion7 on May 01, 2016, 11:07:58 AM
The Huns died with Attila! Magyarization, I saaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyy !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

<weasel-fur-covered axe-wielding Finno-Ugric berserk don't-spare-the-children warrior emoticon>

Huns, Magyars... --- all barbarians. ;D ;D ;D

Forgive me, oh mighty Gurn, I could not resist... 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on May 01, 2016, 11:31:55 AM

(http://s32.postimg.org/7g94jciqt/HSq.jpg)

All this talk about storming Talmaclu & Saliste and carrying off the most beautiful two-dozen or so women as my personal breeding-stock has put me in the mood for these for this afternoon. I probably have not listened to them in 14 years at least. Oops! Ah, Op. 76 ....

(those are the Piano Trios in the center - stupid flash)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 01, 2016, 12:01:18 PM

Quote from: Scion7 on May 01, 2016, 11:31:55 AM
(http://s32.postimg.org/7g94jciqt/HSq.jpg)

All this talk about storming Talmaclu & Saliste and carrying off the most beautiful two-dozen or so women as my personal breeding-stock has put me in the mood for these for this afternoon. I probably have not listened to them in 14 years at least. Oops! Ah, Op. 76 ....

(those are the Piano Trios in the center - stupid flash)

Good choices!

I'm listening to this outstanding Robert Burns compendium:

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on May 01, 2016, 04:22:38 PM

After listening to them catch fire and burn the Piano Trio #45, H.XV.29 to the outer reaches of the magnetosphere - out of curiosity, I wanted to see how these awesome 1969 performances by Huguette Dreyfus (piano)-Eduard Melkus (violin)-Elisabeth Vogt (cello) had fared on CD issue. Gasp! :o They haven't been - is this correct? I couldn't find anything but re-issues of these original Valois albums.

I have the MHS boxed set of LP's - love the sound of them. Decent pressings. One of the many record sets that got me through 2 a.m. solid-state and nuclear physics exam-night cramming. I bought it sometime during post-1979, but as with all the silver-label MHS sets, no date of issue is listed. Had to wait for the green-label days for that.

(http://s32.postimg.org/bvua3og4l/MHS_Front.jpg) (http://s32.postimg.org/ecu89tt45/MHS_Inside.jpg)

Sometime tomorrow, I'll either scan in the booklet-sheet or take a pic of it that shows the type legibly of Melkus and Harry Halbreich's notes.

The 1971 boxset from Valois themselves: (http://s32.postimg.org/m6gmu5sbp/Valois_boxest_1971.jpg)

The original LP's from '69 had good if unspectacular covers . . . (http://s32.postimg.org/cd94fqyed/1969_LP_31_35_36_37.jpg)

Not sure when this last French-label LP-boxset came out? (http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51yJ%2B7sy9mL._SS500_.jpg)

[asin]B00JAS0DS2[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 01, 2016, 04:27:39 PM

Quote from: Scion7 on May 01, 2016, 04:22:38 PM
After listening to them catch fire and burn the Piano Trio #45, H.XV.29 to the outer reaches of the magnetosphere - out of curiosity, I wanted to see how these awesome 1969 performances by Huguette Dreyfus (piano)-Eduard Melkus (violin)-Elisabeth Vogt (cello) had fared on CD issue. Gasp! :o They haven't been - is this correct? I couldn't find anything but re-issues of these original Valois albums.

I have the MHS boxed set of LP's - love the sound of them. Decent pressings. One of the many record sets that got me through 2 a.m. solid-state and nuclear physics exam-night cramming. I bought it sometime during post-1979, but as with all the silver-label MHS sets, no date of issue is listed. Had to wait for the green-label days for that.

Sometime tomorrow, I'll either scan in the booklet-sheet or take a pic of it that shows the type legibly of Melkus and Harry Halbreich's notes.

The 1971 boxset from Valois themselves:

The original LP's from '69 had good if unspectacular covers . . .
Not sure when this last French-label LP-boxset came out?

Well, I don't do LP's so I know nothing about them, but I will tell you, if they have ever been on CD, it would be pretty surprising if I didn't have them, or at least heard of, since collecting Keyboard Trios on period instruments is one of those things I do. And I like those players so I would have them for sure.

Pretty good, eh? Many people would tell you that some of Haydn's best music is contained in those late trios. I am particularly fond of them. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on May 01, 2016, 04:30:28 PM

Absolutely. Completely mature, in charge of his craft, firing on all cylinders. Personally, I don't feel Beethoven ever surpassed them, even if he matched them with a couple of his. Same with Mozart.

I'll have to transfer these to computer files one day when I have the time.

Papa puts the piano player to task with the fast movements of these Trios. Dreyfus was up to the task. Would love video of these guys performing Haydn.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 01, 2016, 04:27:39 PM
if they have ever been on CD, it would be pretty surprising if I didn't have them ...

This is the kind of thing Brilliant Classics should try to license. Sigh.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 01, 2016, 05:17:08 PM

Quote from: Scion7 on May 01, 2016, 04:30:28 PM
Absolutely. Completely mature, in charge of his craft, firing on all cylinders. Personally, I don't feel Beethoven ever surpassed them, even if he matched them with a couple of his. Same with Mozart.

I'll have to transfer these to computer files one day when I have the time.

Papa puts the piano player to task with the fast movements of these Trios. Dreyfus was up to the task. Would love video of these guys performing Haydn.

Oh yes, I would too like to actually see them performed. Sometimes you hear things being played on a recording and you really want to SEE someone actually do that. :)

QuoteThis is the kind of thing Brilliant Classics should try to license. Sigh.

Yes, they are the sort who could do it. There are some things 'in the vault' of these companies which may never again see the light of day. Such a pity... :(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on May 01, 2016, 05:53:58 PM

That's why I don't shed tears for OOP releases being ripped and posted.
Although there isn't any date for that last French LP --> (http://s32.postimg.org/u4416hq5h/57_3.jpg) -- if they were issued after 1990 I would be surprised. MHS used to issue CD's but they've ceased operations from what I last heard, and doubt they renewed their lease from Valois (or whoever owns them now.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on May 02, 2016, 12:05:25 AM

To go back to the appreciation of Haydn. I think what is needed for perspective is also that Haydn was very famous in the last 25 years of his life. So his popularity dropped from the highest possible level. (His music was obviously still fairly influential for some musicians of the Beethoven/Hummel generation, after that mainly for explicitly classicist composers like Mendelssohn and Brahms) Whereas Mozart probably became even more famous for about 20-30 years after his death (he had not been quite as famous as Haydn) and then the popularity dropped (or rather was concentrated on a few pieces). It's also hardly a shame to be overshadowed posthumeously by Mozart.

But the most important point seems to me that, as I said, in a musical culture where roughly contemporary music rules with very few exceptions it is perfectly normal that Haydn's popularity dropped and was confined to a few large scale late works (and also remained central for domestic music making). Recall that when we talk of a "Bach Renaissance" following Mendelssohn we are referring also only to a few works that were usually heavily edited and arranged. Except for those few (mostly large choral works) by Bach and Handel and two or three Gluck operas Haydn was the oldest composer regularly performed throughout the 19th century. (And that many works are hardly performed in concert is not surprising, especially considering how much Haydn wrote. Recall that hardly any Schubert piano sonata was regularly performed in concert until the mid-20th century.)

It is also normal for such a culture to consider some formerly famous composers as of mere historical interest (again with important exceptions by more historically oriented composers or music lovers or in some sections like domestic music making). We should not be led astray by our very strange and unusual perspective that is almost completely focussed on music older than 60 (usually older than 100) years and with the help of recordings has almost the whole history of music at its disposal.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus - Piano Trio Notes Valois 1969
Post by: Scion7 on May 02, 2016, 01:01:04 PM

Didn't have time to scan so just used the digital camera - but they are legible.
I am sure MHS just took the liner notes from the Valois LP's and put them in their box as a sheet.
click-expand

(http://s32.postimg.org/s5hlt6hn9/Haydn_Pn_Trios_Pg1.jpg)

(http://s32.postimg.org/ebz83zt91/Haydn_Pn_Trios_Pg2.jpg)

(http://s32.postimg.org/ku0ypue39/Haydn_Pn_Trios_Pg3.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus - Piano Trio Notes Valois 1969
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 02, 2016, 02:35:34 PM

Quote from: Scion7 on May 02, 2016, 01:01:04 PM
Didn't have time to scan so just used the digital camera - but they are legible.
I am sure MHS just took the liner notes from the Valois LP's and put them in their box as a sheet.
click-expand
8)

Thanks! Those were better notes than one usually gets in a more modern recording. I would agree with you, very likely this is exactly what MHS did. I have quite a few of their recordings, from such very cool labels as Amon Ra, and that's for sure what they did there.

I wonder if Haydn House would consider doing some chamber music instead of symphonies... hmmmm :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 02, 2016, 06:07:01 PM

Something goes 'click' when a classical music fan hears the words 'folk songs'. The brain shuts off! I thought so too, but what I learned this time opened my eyes to what was really going on there. Check it out!

Haydn creates a Scotland for himself (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2016/05/1792-the-music-part-2-.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on May 02, 2016, 06:10:59 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on May 02, 2016, 12:05:25 AM
To go back to the appreciation of Haydn. I think what is needed for perspective is also that Haydn was very famous in the last 25 years of his life. So his popularity dropped from the highest possible level. (His music was obviously still fairly influential for some musicians of the Beethoven/Hummel generation, after that mainly for explicitly classicist composers like Mendelssohn and Brahms) Whereas Mozart probably became even more famous for about 20-30 years after his death (he had not been quite as famous as Haydn) and then the popularity dropped (or rather was concentrated on a few pieces). It's also hardly a shame to be overshadowed posthumeously by Mozart.

But the most important point seems to me that, as I said, in a musical culture where roughly contemporary music rules with very few exceptions it is perfectly normal that Haydn's popularity dropped and was confined to a few large scale late works (and also remained central for domestic music making). Recall that when we talk of a "Bach Renaissance" following Mendelssohn we are referring also only to a few works that were usually heavily edited and arranged. Except for those few (mostly large choral works) by Bach and Handel and two or three Gluck operas Haydn was the oldest composer regularly performed throughout the 19th century. (And that many works are hardly performed in concert is not surprising, especially considering how much Haydn wrote. Recall that hardly any Schubert piano sonata was regularly performed in concert until the mid-20th century.)

It is also normal for such a culture to consider some formerly famous composers as of mere historical interest (again with important exceptions by more historically oriented composers or music lovers or in some sections like domestic music making). We should not be led astray by our very strange and unusual perspective that is almost completely focussed on music older than 60 (usually older than 100) years and with the help of recordings has almost the whole history of music at its disposal.

Yes, excellent post, Jo. Right on the money. Haydn enjoys a degree of popularity other composers (and artists in general) would kill to have!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus - Piano Trio Notes Valois 1969
Post by: Madiel on May 03, 2016, 05:00:51 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 02, 2016, 02:35:34 PM
Those were better notes than one usually gets in a more modern recording.

Personally I really appreciate it when notes bother to tell me things like "these were published together as a group, as opus 70". I know that opus numbers are quite inadequate for many composers, not least because they don't cover everything and/or contradictory numbering was used when the same work was published in different markets, but to me it's still damn useful to know that were presented and often conceived as a set.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on May 04, 2016, 05:55:42 AM

Hmmm ... still no Florestan.
Usually they rise on the 2nd nite . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 04, 2016, 06:27:23 AM

Quote from: Scion7 on May 04, 2016, 05:55:42 AM
Hmmm ... still no Florestan.
Usually they rise on the 2nd nite . . . .

FYI, I wrote to Haydn House about it yesterday. The engineer replied that if I sent him the LP's, he would rip and master the CD's and give them to me free, while maintaining the rights to sell the result. Apparently that's how they work there. If I had the LP's.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on May 04, 2016, 12:54:59 PM

What's Haydn House?
Did the eng say he would keep and sell the LP's you send him in return for 'free' CD rips, or that he was free to sell the rips to others on CD?
ç1969 -- they are still under copyright -- living on the edge / danger / danger, Will Robinson / you're in danger little stranger / Danger! Cliffs! Sheer drop! No railing! / :P

Haven't done this in a while - let's see if it works:

"Arise, Florestan, arise! I command you to ... rise!"

Worth a shot. :)
That is, if his neighbors did not do a pre-emptive staking/decapitation/stuff mouth with garlic procedure.
Those Bucharestians can be an angry lot!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 04, 2016, 01:07:02 PM

Quote from: Scion7 on May 04, 2016, 12:54:59 PM
What's Haydn House?
Did the eng say he would keep and sell the LP's you send him in return for 'free' CD rips, or that he was free to sell the rips to others on CD?
ç1969 -- they are still under copyright -- living on the edge / danger / danger, Will Robinson / you're in danger little stranger / Danger! Cliffs! Sheer drop! No railing! / :P

Haven't done this in a while - let's see if it works:

"Arise, Florestan, arise! I command you to ... rise!"

Worth a shot. :)
That is, if his neighbors did not do a pre-emptive staking/decapitation/stuff mouth with garlic procedure.
Those Bucharestians can be an angry lot!

I don't know how they stand vis-a-vis copyright laws. I bet they know about it though. They sell thousands of mastered LP's as CD's. I have all the Solomons Symphonies from them that CBS/Sony never released, for example.

http://www.haydnhouse.com/

Go ask them and see what they say. They are easy to get in touch with and you get a prompt email reply. Lock your wallet up before you go there, though... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on May 04, 2016, 02:18:56 PM

I was just curious.
I have a USB turntable and Audio-Technica software, plus Roxio Toast, to make transfers.
Just have to get motivated to sit down and record the entire set in one go. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on May 05, 2016, 05:49:16 AM

I'm having a mini Bruno Weil (conducting Haydn Symphonies) binge. They are so frothy and charming--light but brilliant. I am not sure how much of what I like is Weil and how much is Wolf Erichson's terrific engineering. A combo, no doubt.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 05, 2016, 06:07:45 AM

Quote from: Mookalafalas on May 05, 2016, 05:49:16 AM
I'm having a mini Bruno Weil (conducting Haydn Symphonies) binge. They are so frothy and charming--light but brilliant. I am not sure how much of what I like is Weil and how much is Wolf Erichson's terrific engineering. A combo, no doubt.

That's a great set, another one of those disappointments in that they did just 20 or so symphonies when they could have done so much more. Erichson is the Godfather of period recordings. Between Vivarte and SEON, he sure did us all some good! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus (Michael Haydn)
Post by: carlito77 on May 07, 2016, 04:50:05 AM

Though, Johann Michael Haydn never achieved the notoriety of his elder brother, what were his best achievements? I was searching for Haydn's famous trumpet concerto performed by Wynton Marsalis in E flat major on Youtube but discovered that Michael Haydn also composed a trumpet concerto in D major also performed by Marsalis.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus (Michael Haydn)
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 07, 2016, 06:43:43 AM

Quote from: carlito77 on May 07, 2016, 04:50:05 AM
Though, Johann Michael Haydn never achieved the notoriety of his elder brother, what were his best achievements? I was searching for Haydn's famous trumpet concerto performed by Wynton Marsalis in E flat major on Youtube but discovered that Michael Haydn also composed a trumpet concerto in D major also performed by Marsalis.

Michael had both a good and a bad situation, as far as we modern listeners are concerned. He was employed by the Archbishop of Salzburg as Capellmeister. Therefore, he was always the direct superior of Leopold Mozart, and for a considerable time, Wolfgang's boss too, most notably when Wolfgang came back from Paris to be the Court Organist.

He wrote quite a bit of very good chamber music, some string quartets and quintets. His choice of using 2 violas instead of 2 cellos is credited by most historians as the influence on Mozart doing the same. He wrote quite a few symphonies too (in the 40's I think), which are also very good, if slightly less inspired, perhaps, than Joseph's. Plus a couple of orchestral serenades which are as good as any from the time.

But mostly, he wasn't called on to write secular music. His forte was sacred music, and he was as good as anyone and better than most, including his brother in all but the last 6 masses, when it comes to that. He wrote a great many outstanding masses (listen to the Mass for Saint Hieronymous (Jerome) for example). He also wrote a lot of adjunct mass music like motets, vespers etc. I have a lot of it and can't fail to appreciate the real quality of it.

His concertos are mainly early works, from the 1760's before he went to Salzburg. He was in Vienna as a freelancer at the same time Joseph was, between the Morzin years and Esterházy employment. He wrote horn concertos too, quite fine. And many little divertimentos which are quite enjoyable too. He certainly got his share of the Haydn family talent, but his career simply took a different path.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 07, 2016, 10:11:41 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 29, 2016, 08:33:30 AM
the demise of pan-Europeanism with the rise of Nationalism

Franz Liszt is THE poster boy of Romanticism. He was born in Raiding, Hungary yet he never spoke Hungarian. He was German by birth, yet he moved to Paris and most of his life he spoke and wrote French (he was even a naturalized Marseille citizen). He led a nomadic lifestyle all through his life, roaming all around Europe --- North and South, East and West. He was a benefactor to Chopin, Berlioz, Saint-Saens, Borodin, Grieg and Ole Bull. He was a Freemason, just as Haydn and Mozart had been, ie a member of a cosmopolitan organization. He was a devout Roman Catholic, ie a devout member of the most cosmopolitan Christian Church. His music maps the cultural geography of Europe in his time. It is hard to find a more pan-European figure in the whole history of music. Haydn himself is provincial when compared to Liszt. ;D

(runs away towards the secure retreat of my salon)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on May 07, 2016, 10:48:54 AM

I have never heard any of Michael's church music (Joseph supposedly said that Michael's was better in that genre). I have about 3 discs with symphonies which are pleasant but hardly comparable to the better ones by Joseph. Overall his style is (I think) often more similar to early Mozart or Joh. Chr. Bach than to Joseph.
(I was admittedly so bored by the chamber music disc with Archibudelli that I got rid of it...)

A rather interesting piece by Michael is a huge "serenade" probably even longer than Mozart's "Haffner" and "Posthorn" serenades and including concertante movements with trombone! Those large-scale serenades apparently were a Salzburg tradition.

[asin]B000001WLF[/asin][asin]B000NA835G[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 07, 2016, 11:00:15 AM

Quote from: Florestan on May 07, 2016, 10:11:41 AM
Franz Liszt is THE poster boy of Romanticism. He was born in Raiding, Hungary yet he never spoke Hungarian. He was German by birth, yet he moved to Paris and most of his life he spoke and wrote French (he was even a naturalized Marseille citizen). He led a nomadic lifestyle all through his life, roaming all around Europe --- North and South, East and West. He was a benefactor to Chopin, Berlioz, Saint-Saens, Borodin, Grieg and Ole Bull. He was a Freemason, just as Haydn and Mozart had been, ie a member of a cosmopolitan organization. He was a devout Roman Catholic, ie a devout member of the most cosmopolitan Christian Church. His music maps the cultural geography of Europe in his time. It is hard to find a more pan-European figure in the whole history of music. Haydn himself is provincial when compared to Liszt. ;D

(runs away towards the secure retreat of my salon)

Haydn was 2 years in the grave when Liszt was born, so it really doesn't bear comparison. In Haydn's lifetime there was no one to compare him to. Anyone who came after is simply someone who came after.

Away with you, foul tempter! >:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 07, 2016, 11:38:46 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 07, 2016, 11:00:15 AM
Haydn was 2 years in the grave when Liszt was born, so it really doesn't bear comparison.

It´s not a matter of chronology, but of pan-Europeanism --- your own term, which you used as allegedly defining Classicism in contradistinction to Romanticism, which allegedly was nationalist. Now, Liszt´s music draws its inspiration from the history or folklore of, and composers / writers / painters from, France, Hungary, Germany, Italy, England, Spain, Ukraine and Romania. He travelled and was widely known all across Europe, from Lisbon to Kiev and from London to Naples. How much more pan-European must one get in order to receive your stamp of approval? :laugh:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 07, 2016, 01:43:32 PM

Quote from: Florestan on May 07, 2016, 11:38:46 AM
It´s not a matter of chronology, but of pan-Europeanism --- your own term, which you used as allegedly defining Classicism in contradistinction to Romanticism, which allegedly was nationalist. Now, Liszt´s music draws its inspiration from the history or folklore of, and composers / writers / painters from, France, Hungary, Germany, Italy, England, Spain, Ukraine and Romania. He travelled and was widely known all across Europe, from Lisbon to Kiev and from London to Naples. How much more pan-European must one get in order to receive your stamp of approval? :laugh:

I certainly wasn't using it to define classicism, or the Classic Era. I was saying that during the 19th century it disappeared in favor of Nationalism. During the 19th century doesn't necessarily mean in 1801... ::)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 07, 2016, 01:55:27 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 07, 2016, 01:43:32 PM
I certainly wasn't using it to define classicism, or the Classic Era. I was saying that during the 19th century it disappeared in favor of Nationalism. During the 19th century doesn't necessarily mean in 1801... ::)

Liszt was born in 1811 and began his career in 1830s. Just saying. ;D

Here are some more Romantic cosmopolitans: Byron, Berlioz and Shelley.

Please name one single Romantic who was a fiercely, uncompromisingly nationalist as the term is employed today.

(boy, do I just love these intellectual brawls... 8) )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 07, 2016, 02:07:15 PM

Quote from: Florestan on May 07, 2016, 01:55:27 PM
Liszt was born in 1811 and began his career in 1830s. Just saying. ;D

Here are some more Romantic cosmopolitans: Byron, Berlioz and Shelley.

Please name one single Romantic who was a fiercely, uncompromisingly nationalist as the term is employed today.

(boy, do I just love these intellectual brawls... 8) )

No, I won't. It's quite honestly something I don't give a shit about. Nothing personal, you understand, but that's the thing right there. If you want to be the only person in the world who wishes to refuse to admit that the general climate in Europe turned from pan-Europeanism to Nationalism during the 19th century, I am certainly not the person to talk you out of it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 07, 2016, 02:23:17 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 07, 2016, 02:07:15 PM
the general climate in Europe turned from pan-Europeanism to Nationalism during the 19th century

Please, define pan-Europeanism! Please, define Nationalism!

If you think this is highjacking your thread, please switch to my salon! You are more than welcome! :D :D :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on May 08, 2016, 12:42:38 AM

Maybe we can agree on the following:
- There are some nationalist strains arising in the 19th century that did not exist before. They sometimes also concern the arts but not always and not always in the same way.
- There are obviously also some internationalist "movements" either new (like socialism/marxism) or similar to the ones pervading the pan-european upper class of the 18th century. (Or the Catholic church which is also internationalist - some romantics cultivated a love of the pan-european catholic medieval times)
- In the 18th century at least in some artistic branches the "internationalism" was often simply Italian (style and language) dominance, e.g. in opera (and in other fields often French dominance). This was considered a problem (rather independent of any political nationalism) e.g. in the German speaking countries. Thus both Mozart and Emperor Joseph had the advancement of German language opera on their agenda, despite also contributing to the dominance of italian opera. ;)
- in the 19th century this development continued and was sometimes fused with some strains of political nationalism, both in German speaking and in some of the regions within the Austrian Empire as well as in the Russian Empire and in Italy while it struggled to establish itself as a nation state
- very few composers can be clearly identified as "nationalist". E.g., Wagner was politically more of a socialist/anarchist but stuff like Lohengrin, Meistersinger and even the Ring also appeals to a brand of Germanicism that can be associated with Nationalism. Brahms wrote almost no political or nationalist sounding music (hungarian dances...) but one clearly chauvinist-nationalist piece, the Triumphlied (although this sounds like romanticized Handel, not particularly German).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: carlito77 on May 08, 2016, 06:53:31 AM

Speaking of nationalism, was Haydn and Mozart German? I know many historians and musical pundits considered them Austrian but there was no concept of a nation state during their time. So there was no Austria or Germany for that fact as they were both remnants for the Holy Roman Empire as far as I know. But if I'm not mistaking, German was the mother tongue of both Hyadn and Mozart. So they could both be classified as ethnically German. I'm curious because I've read about Austrians today getting indignant when they read about Mozart being called a German composer.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 08, 2016, 07:17:41 AM

Quote from: carlito77 on May 08, 2016, 06:53:31 AM
Speaking of nationalism, was Haydn and Mozart German? I know many historians and musical pundits considered them Austrian but there was no concept of a nation state during their time. So there was no Austria or Germany for that fact as they were both remnants for the Holy Roman Empire as far as I know. But if I'm not mistaking, German was the mother tongue of both Hyadn and Mozart. So they could both be classified as ethnically German. I'm curious because I've read about Austrians today getting indignant when they read about Mozart being called a German composer.

Both Haydn and Mozart were ethnically German. They spoke German, they spoke of themselves as 'German'. Salzburg at the time was an city-state sandwiched between Bavaria (another city-state, now a region of Germany) and Carinthia, now a region of Austria. As far as culture goes, Salzburg was totally aligned with Austria, because it was the home of the Holy Roman Emperor. Bearing in mind that they were mainly Catholics (they booted out the Protestants earlier on), they naturally aligned with the Catholic ruler. However, Leopold and Maria, Mozart's parents, were originally from Augsburg, which is in Bavaria, so they were ethnically German, and given that Bavaria is part of modern Germany, you could say he was German too.

Haydn was also ethnically German, both his parents being that. However, Rohrau, where he was born, is now part of Austria, but it was then on the border of Hungary, and was mainly populated by people who can be considered Hungarian, as it was known then, that is, Croats, Roms, Magyars etc. For this reason, Haydn's earliest cultural experiences, including musically, were Hungarian 'Gypsy' type folk musics. This is why that style always came so readily to hand in later life when he was developing his own musical language. In addition, Haydn's long-time employers, the Esterházy Family, were fully Hungarian, not German at all.

And while I am patiently avoiding all the Nationalism stuff, it is plain to see, if one wanted to get into it, how debates like this arose ever since the formation of a unified German state. In my opinion, it should all be irrelevant to people like Mozart and Haydn who were long gone by the time that state came into being. If you had walked up to either of them in 1785 and asked that same question, they would have probably both said 'Viennese', for what that's worth. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on May 08, 2016, 09:11:31 AM

I quite agree. :) Though both seem these days to be dubbed as "Austrians" since they lived in the Habsburg Empire.
As I understand it, before the emergence of a unified "Germany" all German speakers considered themselves "Germans". Including German speaking inhabitans of the Habsburg Empire, which was a multi-national/ethnic state. Only after the advent of Germany, other "Germans" in for example Austria, Switzerland, Liechtenstein and Luxemburg developed separate "national" identities.

I would hardly call Bavaria a "city-state" BTW. 8)
It was a duchy and, after the abolishement of the Holy Roman Empire, a kingdom (almost) the size of Ireland and larger than some of the smaller states in the US.
It is almost twice the size of the Netherlands! (Not that that is very remarkable.... :D)

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 08, 2016, 09:58:02 AM

Quote from: Que on May 08, 2016, 09:11:31 AM
I quite agree. :) Though both seem these days to be dubbed as "Austrians" since they lived in the Habsburg Empire.
As I understand it, before the emergence of a unified "Germany" all German speakers considered themselves "Germans". Including German speaking inhabitans of the Habsburg Empire, which was a multi-national/ethnic state. Only after the advent of Germany, other "Germans" in for example Austria, Switzerland, Liechtenstein and Luxemburg developed separate "national" identities.

I would hardly call Bavaria a "city-state" BTW. 8)
It was a duchy and, after the abolishement of the Holy Roman Empire, a kingdom (almost) the size of Ireland and larger than some of the smaller states in the US.
It is almost twice the size of the Netherlands! (Not that that is very remarkable.... :D)

Q

:D Don't forget, I'm a Texan. I tend to think of Western Europe as a city-state. >:D

Certainly your take on it and my own are congruent.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on May 08, 2016, 10:10:06 AM

Texas is sort of like a modern-day classic Greece -
with the city-states of Dallas and Houston warring for prestige,
and Ted Nugent recording live albums in San Antonio, the cultural center.
And Cruz can be the oracle.
:P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 08, 2016, 10:55:41 AM

Quote from: Scion7 on May 08, 2016, 10:10:06 AM
Texas is sort of like a modern-day classic Greece -
with the city-states of Dallas and Houston warring for prestige,
and Ted Nugent recording live albums in San Antonio, the cultural center.
And Cruz can be the oracle.
:P

We were all good until you brought Cruz into it... >:(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: carlito77 on May 08, 2016, 11:23:23 AM

Thanks for all the info on Haydn and Mozart. But you're not all advocating that Texas should secede from the union? There's actually a movement in Texas advocating secession. Maybe the U.S. should do the honorable thing and give it back to Mexico. After all, they literally stole it from Mexico and probably half the population in Texas is Mexican already. ;D ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 08, 2016, 01:58:43 PM

Quote from: carlito77 on May 08, 2016, 11:23:23 AM
Thanks for all the info on Haydn and Mozart. But you're not all advocating that Texas should secede from the union? There's actually a movement in Texas advocating secession. Maybe the U.S. should do the honorable thing and give it back to Mexico. After all, they literally stole it from Mexico and probably half the population in Texas is Mexican already. ;D ;D ;D ;D

No, not me!

Actually though, Texas fought a war of independence from Mexico totally without the assistance of the US, in 1836. It wasn't until 1848 that the US more or less recruited Texas to be a state. In between times, we were an independent country. It's true though, there is no shortage of Texicans, and the best food in all the world IS Tex-Mex, which I can guarantee, never saw Mexico! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on May 08, 2016, 02:01:09 PM

What one must do when pondering these succession problems is ask oneself:

What would Haydn have done?

0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 08, 2016, 04:34:11 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 08, 2016, 01:58:43 PM
No, not me!

Actually though, Texas fought a war of independence from Mexico totally without the assistance of the US, in 1836. It wasn't until 1848 that the US more or less recruited Texas to be a state. In between times, we were an independent country. It's true though, there is no shortage of Texicans, and the best food in all the world IS Tex-Mex, which I can guarantee, never saw Mexico! :)

Now Gurn - you should know better, i.e. Texas entered the Union at the end of 1845 after James Polk assumed the presidency after his election in November 1844, our Jacksonian protege and a man of the Manifest Destiny goal for the country - in fact, during his one-term presidency he added more land to the United States than any other (Source (http://millercenter.org/president/biography/polk-life-in-brief)), mainly through helping to instigate the Mexican-American War (1846-48) - shown below is the territory gained after the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo (see image below in green; and this does not include the British treaties for the Oregon territories) - SO, for those wanting to give back Texas to Mexico, we might need to return the other 'property' - ;) Dave

P.S. thanks for the concise and clear (or not?) summary to the 'German' question of Haydn & Mozart. :)

(http://www.ducksters.com/history/westward_expansion/mexican_cession.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 08, 2016, 04:42:32 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 08, 2016, 04:34:11 PM
Now Gurn - you should know better, i.e. Texas entered the Union at the end of 1845 after James Polk assumed the presidency after his election in November 1844, our Jacksonian protege and a man of the Manifest Destiny goal for the country - in fact, during his one-term presidency he added more land to the United States than any other (Source (http://millercenter.org/president/biography/polk-life-in-brief)), mainly through helping to instigate the Mexican-American War (1846-48) - shown below is the territory gained after the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo (see image below in green; and this does not include the British treaties for the Oregon territories) - SO, for those wanting to give back Texas to Mexico, we might need to return the other 'property' - ;) Dave

P.S. thanks for the concise and clear (or not?) summary to the 'German' question of Haydn & Mozart. :)

(http://www.ducksters.com/history/westward_expansion/mexican_cession.jpg)

:D I'm from Vermont. Here, they are supposed to study that stuff in school. I got my Texas history from 'Remember the Alamo'. I just knew the US hadn't stolen it from Mexico, it was already a free country. You aren't allowed to live here not knowing that! :)

I hope it was clear anyway, that's something I have studied! I have found that almost the hardest part of dealing with 18th century European history is putting modern territorial names and boundaries out of your head. There were Italians, but there was no Italy. There were Germans but there was no Germany. And what about the Austrian Netherlands? They were a major pawn on the European chessboard from 1714 to 1797, but even Que didn't mention them! :D

Nice to have you visit Da Haus, Dave, long time no see!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on May 08, 2016, 05:32:32 PM

It says right thar on Gurn's drivers license: "Republic of Texas"

:laugh:

and .... and is that a FREEMASON's card I see in his wallet!?!?!?

:o

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 08, 2016, 07:45:00 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 08, 2016, 04:42:32 PM
:D I'm from Vermont. Here, they are supposed to study that stuff in school. I got my Texas history from 'Remember the Alamo'. I just knew the US hadn't stolen it from Mexico, it was already a free country. You aren't allowed to live here not knowing that! :)

I hope it was clear anyway, that's something I have studied! I have found that almost the hardest part of dealing with 18th century European history is putting modern territorial names and boundaries out of your head. There were Italians, but there was no Italy. There were Germans but there was no Germany. And what about the Austrian Netherlands? They were a major pawn on the European chessboard from 1714 to 1797, but even Que didn't mention them! :D

Nice to have you visit Da Haus, Dave, long time no see!

Hi again Gurn - yep, that European history over the centuries is utterly confusing, just the maps of the changing countries, territories, or whatever names may be applied is a kaleidoscope - understand completely.

Nice to revisit Da Haus - have not been listening much to Papa Haydn lately, but did acquire the 2-CD set below recently - love that group - NEED to get back into some more Haydn listening - he & JS Bach comprise dozens (maybe several hundreds) of discs in my collection - :) Dave

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81x6X1%2Bf2PL._SX425_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 09, 2016, 12:33:55 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 08, 2016, 01:58:43 PM
Actually though, Texas fought a war of independence from Mexico totally without the assistance of the US, in 1836. It wasn't until 1848 that the US more or less recruited Texas to be a state. In between times, we were an independent country.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 08, 2016, 04:42:32 PM
I'm from Vermont.

There is no natiionalist more rabid than an assimilated foreigner... ;D >:D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 09, 2016, 12:37:30 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 08, 2016, 04:42:32 PM
I have found that almost the hardest part of dealing with 18th century European history is putting modern territorial names and boundaries out of your head. There were Italians, but there was no Italy. There were Germans but there was no Germany.

Across the pond, there were Americans but there was no USA. Just saying. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on May 09, 2016, 01:49:48 AM

Technically, I think Haydn was Austrian and Mozart German because the Archbishopric of Salzburg did at this time not belong to Austria.
But there was no Germany as a political entity at this time because the Holy Roman Empire was only overlapping with Germany and while the Emperors had been Hapsburgs for ages then the more southeastern parts of Austria-Hungary were not part of the Holy Roman Empire.

But culturally/musically all were called "German" (vs. Italian and French, don't think other musical cultures were explicitly recognized, despite some use of Spanish or Hungarian folk idioms for "exotic" pieces - the greatest "Spanish" composers of the 18th cent. were Italians: D. Scarlatti and Boccherini...) although there had been stylistic differences between "North German"(including middle/eastern parts, like Saxony) and South German/Austrian musicians already in the mid/late 17th century, mostly along the Lutheran/Catholic dividing lines, I guess. (Although it gets complicated there as well, e.g. when August of Saxony converted to Catholicism to become King of Poland...)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on May 11, 2016, 06:26:45 AM

*Compares Texas to size of Australian states*

*Laughs and leaves*

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on May 11, 2016, 07:06:18 AM

*looks at Sydney Funnel-Web Spider, Queensland's Northern Tree Funnel-web Spider, and the Eastern Brown Snake, and decides Haydn would have much preferred Texas with its jackrabbits*

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on May 11, 2016, 07:19:23 AM

Quote from: orfeo on May 11, 2016, 06:26:45 AM
*Compares Texas to size of Australian states*

*Laughs and leaves*

For those who want to do this at home:

www.thetruesize.com

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 11, 2016, 07:53:06 AM

Quote from: orfeo on May 11, 2016, 06:26:45 AM
*Compares Texas to size of Australian states*

*Laughs and leaves*

Damn, y'all have even more wasteland than WE do!! :o :o

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on May 11, 2016, 07:59:35 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 11, 2016, 07:53:06 AM
Damn, y'all have even more wasteland than WE do!! :o :o

8)

Now if only we could send them Ted Cruz.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on May 11, 2016, 08:02:43 AM

Quote from: Scion7 on May 11, 2016, 07:06:18 AM
*looks at Sydney Funnel-Web Spider, Queensland's Northern Tree Funnel-web Spider, and the Eastern Brown Snake, and decides Haydn would have much preferred Texas with its jackrabbits*

Wow, you are totally worried about the wrong things. Funnel-web spiders? No-one's died from a Sydney funnel-web since the antivenom became available in 1981. You'd be far better off worrying about the crocodiles. Or the tiny jellyfish that are lethal.

Or platypuses. Okay, so actually encountering a platypus isn't easy, but apparently the venom is amongst the most painful known to man. It won't kill you, but you'll want to die.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on May 11, 2016, 08:12:26 AM

Haydn's time, lad. Not today.
And back then there might still have been a cryptid 20' long varanid still roaming about.
Death by Megalania, death by saltwater croc, death by stray boomerang ..... ???

Haydn chooses to play in the Rio Grande mud.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 11, 2016, 08:13:33 AM

Quote from: orfeo on May 11, 2016, 08:02:43 AM
Okay, so actually encountering a platypus isn't easy

It's no picnic for the platypus, either.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 11, 2016, 08:22:41 AM

Quote from: Brian on May 11, 2016, 07:59:35 AM
Now if only we could send them Ted Cruz.

I'll get it funded on Kickstarter... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on May 11, 2016, 08:30:09 AM

Any scuttlebutt on "The Hobbit's" Haydn symphony cycle?

The last I heard it was cancelled, then Fey suffered traumatic brain injury in a domestic accident, then Hanssler announced the cycle was on again, but Fey is still incapacitated. Is there any hope for Fey's recovery?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on May 12, 2016, 03:16:09 AM

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61vr-iLNuAL._SL500_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/6188yoQYhZL.jpg)

Just got notice that this will arrive Tomorrow!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 12, 2016, 03:40:56 AM

Quote from: George on May 12, 2016, 03:16:09 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61vr-iLNuAL._SL500_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/6188yoQYhZL.jpg)

Just got notice that this will arrive Tomorrow!!

(http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/hand-gestures/clapping-bravo-smiley-emoticon.gif)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on May 12, 2016, 03:43:28 AM

Quote from: Florestan on May 12, 2016, 03:40:56 AM
(http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/hand-gestures/clapping-bravo-smiley-emoticon.gif)

Gracias. Is that Sinopoli?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on May 12, 2016, 04:07:57 AM

no that's whoever the eTailer cashier is who took the cc payment for that boxset!

Well, surprisingly, that 35-CD set goes for about $60 on Amazon.
Not bad.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 12, 2016, 04:21:21 AM

Quote from: George on May 12, 2016, 03:43:28 AM
Gracias. Is that Sinopoli?

Looks like him all right, anyway.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 12, 2016, 05:00:16 AM

Quote from: George on May 12, 2016, 03:16:09 AM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/61vr-iLNuAL._SL500_.jpg)(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/6188yoQYhZL.jpg)

Just got notice that this will arrive Tomorrow!!

Excellent! I would be delighted to hear your impressions, not just of the music, but of the packaging, liner notes, whatever. I'm curious about how well they managed the repackaging. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on May 12, 2016, 06:40:55 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 12, 2016, 05:00:16 AM
Excellent! I would be delighted to hear your impressions, not just of the music, but of the packaging, liner notes, whatever. I'm curious about how well they managed the repackaging. :)

8)

Me too! Of course, ImportCDs is offering it for $45, so I will be buying it no matter what George says, but hey, a guy can be curious ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 12, 2016, 07:11:46 AM

Quote from: Brian on May 12, 2016, 06:40:55 AM
Me too! Of course, ImportCDs is offering it for $45, so I will be buying it no matter what George says, but hey, a guy can be curious ;D

Just looked on Amazon USA - release date tomorrow priced @ $60, but no MP listings are yet available which likely will be as above. In addition to the Fischer Haydn box, I do own 8 discs of Kuijken (Nos. 82-92 & 93-104) & just one Hogwood CD (Nos. 76-77); SO, looks like a buy for me, too!

Quoted below is a brief description from Amazon - Dave :)

Quote35 CD lift off-lid box set - extensive booklet featuring an index of symphonies, and a new note by Haydn expert David Threasher in English, French and German. Detailed tracklists on individual wallets

ADDENDUM: Now I know that there has been a LOT of praise for Hogwood's efforts, but there are quite a few discs w/ Franz Bruggen (who I like), but what is the age of these recordings and the performances like? Also, will be curious if any re-mastering was done?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 12, 2016, 07:31:52 AM

Quote from: Brian on May 12, 2016, 06:40:55 AM
Me too! Of course, ImportCDs is offering it for $45, so I will be buying it no matter what George says, but hey, a guy can be curious ;D

I may end up buying it too, because I am writing a review of it for publication. Since I already have all the recordings, it would be nice to know if there are any liner notes at all, for example, without having to buy the box to find out. I'll probably end up buying it anyway, in the interest of journalistic integrity... ::)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 12, 2016, 07:35:22 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 12, 2016, 07:11:46 AM

ADDENDUM: Now I know that there has been a LOT of praise for Hogwood's efforts, but there are quite a few discs w/ Franz Bruggen (who I like), but what is the age of these recordings and the performances like? Also, will be curious if any re-mastering was done?

The Brüggen and Hogwood are roughly contemporaneous. At the time, these 2, Goodman and to a lesser extent, the final Pinnock recordings were all in the works: who knew we would have to wait until 2016 for a complete set!?! ???

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on May 12, 2016, 01:25:35 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 12, 2016, 05:00:16 AM
Excellent! I would be delighted to hear your impressions, not just of the music, but of the packaging, liner notes, whatever. I'm curious about how well they managed the repackaging. :)

8)

Sure! Will do, Gurn!

Quote from: Brian on May 12, 2016, 06:40:55 AM
Me too! Of course, ImportCDs is offering it for $45, so I will be buying it no matter what George says, but hey, a guy can be curious ;D

$45! >:(

And I thought I was getting a great deal for $65 shipped. :(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 12, 2016, 01:56:15 PM

This morning, I put a post in the Myslivecek thread (quoted below) that likely will not be seen by many - since the CD discussed has cello concertos of Papa Joke, just reposting here - I've only done I listen, but really enjoyed! Dave :)

QuoteHaydn & Myslivecek - Cello Concertos w/ Wendy Warner & Camerata Chicago conducted by Drostan Hall - will add a more extensive review in the Josef Myslivecek thread, the main reason for my purchase - NOTE: Reposted from listening thread w/ additional information, pics, and reviews (PDF attachment) added - Dave :)

As already shown by Scion7, the remaining options for Myslivecek, especially by himself are few - so today, I received the Wendy Warner (maybe another 'cello babe'?) recording below; the Myslivecek work is a violin concerto arrangement for cello and is sandwiched between two Haydn concertos (C Major & D Major) - the transitions between the works of the two composers is seamless; the sound is superb (24-bit recording).

Warner plays a cello by Pietro Guarneri II, Venice c. 1739 nicknamed the "Beatrice Harrison" after the late British cellist (see the two lower pics); she also uses a period bow by Francois Xavier Tourte, c. 1815 called "De Lamare" (and on extended loan through the Stradivari Society of Chicago). The recording took place over two days in November, 2012 in College Church, Wheaton, IL.

Attached is a PDF file of two reviews, including a 10/10 rating by David Vernier - cannot agree more w/ his comments - the orchestra consisted of 25 members (21 mixed strings), including 2 oboes & 2 horns. Highly recommended!

(https://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-nX8sh8L/0/O/Haydn_Myslivecek_Cello_Warner.jpg) (https://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-QJmF3Tk/0/O/WendyWarner.png)

(https://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-h77gPHV/0/O/Cello_Guarneri_1739.png) (https://giradman.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-w4Wj5zW/0/O/Harrison_Beatrice.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on May 13, 2016, 02:01:17 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 12, 2016, 07:11:46 AMADDENDUM: Now I know that there has been a LOT of praise for Hogwood's efforts, but there are quite a few discs w/ Franz Bruggen (who I like), but what is the age of these recordings and the performances like? Also, will be curious if any re-mastering was done?

I don't know who's praising Hogwood, the recordings seem dreary to me. I'm still rooting for the Hobbit to recover and finish his set. Until then I have Harnoncourt's recordings the the RCO and CMW as well as Davies' complete set to keep me occupied.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on May 13, 2016, 05:47:28 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 12, 2016, 05:00:16 AM
Excellent! I would be delighted to hear your impressions, not just of the music, but of the packaging, liner notes, whatever. I'm curious about how well they managed the repackaging. :)

8)

There is a booklet. 10 pages in English. The rest in other languages. The production date for all symphonies is from the 80s and 90s, (so no remastering?) except for the Dantone readings of 78-81. The CDs are made in Germany, in cardboard sleeves. And the sleeves have all the info about the contents, which is great!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus - what to call his historical-fiction flick?
Post by: Scion7 on May 14, 2016, 12:24:27 PM

ALRIGHTY-THEN! There've been many movies about various composers over the years, for example:

A Song to Remember (1945) - on Chopin, with George Sand

Song of Love (1947) - on Schumann, with Clara and Brahms and Liszt

Magic Fire (1955) - on Wagner (starring the almighty Peter Cushing, btw)

Song Without End (1960) - on Liszt

Song of Norway (1970) - on Grieg

Amadeus (1984) - on Mozart

Impromptu (1991) - Chopin, Liszt, and their birds

Immortal Beloved (1994) - Beethoven

. . . but if Hollywood or a European studio comes up with a clever story on Franz Josef, what to call it?
All the ^ above titles sort of have a certain pizzazz about them.
But what is there in Papa's life story they could extract and make a profound movie title?
What 'controversial' item about Haydn's life could you see them writing some fanciful script about?
While not quite as "dull" as J.S. Bach's life - he didn't really attract the sturm and drang in his life that Mozart and Beethoven had.
It would be a shame for him not to get a piece of the action. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 14, 2016, 07:06:21 PM

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on May 15, 2016, 08:19:50 AM

:)

Cello Concerto No.1 in C, Hob.VIIb:1
ç1975 Natalia Gutman,
Ensemble of the Academic Symph. Orchestra of Moscow State Philharmonic,
cond. Lev Markiz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NXKJ3ZfPetE

(http://s32.postimg.org/9bmboygs5/Haydn_cello_Gutman.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 15, 2016, 12:10:12 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 14, 2016, 07:06:21 PM...and that is what I had a go at this week. There is something for everyone, even the makings of Scion's movie! :D
Have a look,

The Prince of Wales' punch: 1 bottle champagne, 1 bottle Burgundy, 1 bottle rum, 10 lemons, 2 oranges, 1 lbs. of sugar.

??? ...that's punch with a real punch to it ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 15, 2016, 02:15:17 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 15, 2016, 12:10:12 PM
The Prince of Wales' punch: 1 bottle champagne, 1 bottle Burgundy, 1 bottle rum, 10 lemons, 2 oranges, 1 lbs. of sugar.

??? ...that's punch with a real punch to it ;D

Sarge

Well, I only used a pint when I tried it, but a quart would knock your d*** in the dirt!! :o :o It's delicious though! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on May 15, 2016, 07:22:55 PM

champagne+hard liquor - always guaranteed trouble! >:D

I think the Gutman is now my favorite version of that concerto.
Maybe because it is new - but she was definitely a great cellist.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 16, 2016, 03:13:55 AM

Haydn´s early years in Vienna, after his dismissal from the St. Stephen´s choir, would make a nice movie, I think. Ditto the disastruous flooding of the Eszterhaza opera house. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 16, 2016, 04:34:56 AM

Quote from: Florestan on May 16, 2016, 03:13:55 AM
Haydn´s early years in Vienna, after his dismissal from the St. Stephen´s choir, would make a nice movie, I think. Ditto the disastruous flooding of the Eszterhaza opera house. :D

Flooding would have likely been quite welcome during the fire, though. But yes, it would make a dramatic scene, perhaps not up to Sherman's burning of Atlanta in Gone with the Wind, but for music lovers...

If it was to remain historically accurate, the most interesting aspect seems to be his charmed life. At every crucial turn in his life, he met someone who turned out to be just the person to make things turn out the best for him. I cannot think of any other historical person whose story I know who lived quite as fortunate a life as he did. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 16, 2016, 04:53:56 AM

Quote from: George on May 13, 2016, 05:47:28 PM
There is a booklet. 10 pages in English. The rest in other languages. The production date for all symphonies is from the 80s and 90s, (so no remastering?) except for the Dantone readings of 78-81. The CDs are made in Germany, in cardboard sleeves. And the sleeves have all the info about the contents, which is great!

Thanks for the info, George. Did you feel like the English page(s) of the booklet were informative to you? Not that it is relevant, but the original Hogwood recordings had the best liner notes I ever got in a CD! I do like the idea of putting the disk info on the sleeve, I wonder why they aren't all like that! Anyway, appreciate the feedback. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on May 16, 2016, 05:37:57 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 16, 2016, 04:53:56 AM
Thanks for the info, George. Did you feel like the English page(s) of the booklet were informative to you?

My pleasure, Gurn! I was wondering if you saw my post. I almost re-posted it today.

I have been very busy preparing to move in with my girlfriend (I am losing 47 feet of shelf space, so a LOT of tough decisions), thus no time to read right now, sorry!

QuoteNot that it is relevant, but the original Hogwood recordings had the best liner notes I ever got in a CD!

I have learned a lot from the better liner notes out there.

QuoteI do like the idea of putting the disk info on the sleeve, I wonder why they aren't all like that!

I know, right? Would make life easier. Especially on the bigger sets and those which have more than one recording of the same work.

QuoteAnyway, appreciate the feedback. :)

Again, my pleasure. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on May 16, 2016, 05:45:12 AM

FORTY-SEVEN FEET?!?!!?!?

Haydn's ghost just said, MEIN GOTT !!!!! ???

That would be a kat-tat-stro-pee ... I hope you have a good storage facility on or near the premises.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 16, 2016, 06:08:01 AM

Quote from: George on May 16, 2016, 05:37:57 AM

My pleasure, Gurn! I was wondering if you saw my post. I almost re-posted it today.

I have been very busy preparing to move in with my girlfriend (I am losing 47 feet of shelf space, so a LOT of tough decisions), thus no time to read right now, sorry!

I have learned a lot from the better liner notes out there.

I know, right? Would make life easier. Especially on the bigger sets and those which have more than one recording of the same work.

Again, my pleasure. :)

Holy crap, that would hold most of my Haydn collection! :o :o :)

No, but seriously, I couldn't give up that much, even though I don't need it. My big issue is books, I actually have only 55' of CD's, but a few hundred of books.

I have also learned a lot from liner notes, although you have to be careful, some of the people who write them haven't bought a new book in 50 years and so you get some pretty outdated info, but really, you can't do without the good ones!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 16, 2016, 06:10:14 AM

Quote from: George on May 16, 2016, 05:37:57 AM
My pleasure, Gurn! I was wondering if you saw my post. I almost re-posted it today.

I have been very busy preparing to move in with my girlfriend (I am losing 47 feet of shelf space, so a LOT of tough decisions), thus no time to read right now, sorry!

While everyone else is concentrating on the spatial reduction — delighted that things are working out so well with the girlfriend :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on May 16, 2016, 06:22:00 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on May 16, 2016, 06:10:14 AM
While everyone else is concentrating on the spatial reduction — delighted that things are working out so well with the girlfriend :)

Thanks, Karl!

I should say that although I am losing 47 feet of shelf space, my girlfriend was willing to move enough of her stuff out so that I can have 100 feet of CD shelf space - and a separate 6 foot shelf, 12 inches deep, for the bigger box sets.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on May 16, 2016, 07:56:28 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on May 16, 2016, 06:10:14 AM
While everyone else is concentrating on the spatial reduction — delighted that things are working out so well with the girlfriend :)

That was a bona fide GMG Moment right there!

Quote from: George on May 16, 2016, 06:22:00 AM
I should say that although I am losing 47 feet of shelf space, my girlfriend was willing to move enough of her stuff out so that I can have 100 feet of CD shelf space - and a separate 6 foot shelf, 12 inches deep, for the bigger box sets.

True bliss!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on May 16, 2016, 01:35:59 PM

Quote from: George on May 16, 2016, 05:37:57 AM
I have been very busy preparing to move in with my girlfriend (I am losing 47 feet of shelf space, so a LOT of tough decisions), thus no time to read right now, sorry!

http://www.spacesavingsleeves.com

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: HIPster on May 16, 2016, 05:14:46 PM

Quote from: Brian on May 16, 2016, 07:56:28 AM
That was a bona fide GMG Moment right there!
True bliss!

LOL :laugh:

All the best to you, George!

And wow, 47 feet! :o

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 17, 2016, 06:10:24 AM

The dozens of loose ends I was forced to leave in London took a magnum opus to gather together, and that is what I had a go at this week. There is something for everyone, even the makings of Scion's movie! :D

How Art helped me see England as Haydn did... (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2016/05/1792-the-year-part-5-.html)

Have a look,
Thanks,
8)

The unexpected flurry of posts pushed this back a page before many even got a chance to see it. Since it premieres artwork by Mn Dave, I would hate for it to be missed! 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on May 17, 2016, 09:06:46 AM

Quote from: Pat B on May 16, 2016, 01:35:59 PM
http://www.spacesavingsleeves.com

Thanks, but no thanks. I am a jewel case guy.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on May 17, 2016, 09:07:11 AM

Quote from: HIPster on May 16, 2016, 05:14:46 PM
LOL :laugh:

All the best to you, George!

Thanks!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on May 18, 2016, 05:26:20 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 16, 2016, 04:53:56 AM
Not that it is relevant, but the original Hogwood recordings had the best liner notes I ever got in a CD!

It's damn relevant to me as I continue considering the Hogwood box for purchase. Or did you only mean when they were separate releases?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vandermolen on May 18, 2016, 05:31:58 AM

I am making a rare 'guest appearance' on this section of the GMG Composer's Forum to point out that the June issue of the BBC Music Magazine features Joseph Haydn, 'The symphonic all-rounder' as their 'Composer of the Month'. Their recommended recordings for the Great Man are:

'Paris' Symphonies 82-87 (Norrington, Zurich CO, Sony)

Symphonies 6-8 (Kuijken, Accent)

The Creation (Herreweghe, Philips)

Quartets Op.33 (Cuarteto Casals, Harmonia Mundi)

Now back to Khachaturian's Third Symphony. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2016, 05:34:30 AM

Quote from: orfeo on May 18, 2016, 05:26:20 AM
It's damn relevant to me as I continue considering the Hogwood box for purchase. Or did you only mean when they were separate releases?

Yes, when they were in boxes of three. :-\ One of the sad things about the first re-release came when I was told that the "liner notes" consisted of a track listing.... :(

Let me know if you drop the hammer though, and I can send you the entire 10 volumes of liner notes contained in a single very handy pdf. It's a deal maker as far as the box set goes. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on May 18, 2016, 05:38:43 AM

Quote from: orfeo on May 18, 2016, 05:26:20 AM
It's damn relevant to me as I continue considering the Hogwood box for purchase. Or did you only mean when they were separate releases?

The original 10 L'oiseau lyre volumes are the opposite of space saving: Each volume has 3 discs in a double jewelcase with a fat booklet together in a cardbord slipcase. Each is about as fat as a typical opera recording with libretto (ca. 3 cm, I think) and takes almost as much space as the 13-disc box of Brüggen's Haydn symphony box.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2016, 05:40:06 AM

Quote from: vandermolen on May 18, 2016, 05:31:58 AM
I am making a rare 'guest appearance' on this section of the GMG Composer's Forum to point out that the June issue of the BBC Music Magazine features Joseph Haydn, 'The symphonic all-rounder' as their 'Composer of the Month'. Their recommended recordings for the Great Man are:

'Paris' Symphonies 82-87 (Norrington, Zurich CO, Sony)

Symphonies 6-8 (Kuijken, Accent)

The Creation (Herreweghe, Philips)

Quartets Op.33 (Cuarteto Casals, Harmonia Mundi)

Now back to Khachaturian's Third Symphony. 8)

Thank you, sir, very kind, I'm sure.

Not to be picky, but I would far rather go:

'Paris' Symphonies 82-87 (Harnoncourt/ Concentus musicus Wien - DHM)

Symphonies 6-8 (Kuijken, Accent)

The Creation (McCreesh, Arkiv)

Quartets Op.33 (London Haydn Quartet, Hyperion)

But hey, that's just me. :D

PS - who for the Khachaturian?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 18, 2016, 05:42:32 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2016, 05:40:06 AM
Not to be picky, but

Not to be picky but actually let me be just that... ;D >:D :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2016, 05:46:48 AM

Quote from: Florestan on May 18, 2016, 05:42:32 AM
Not to be picky but actually let me be just that... ;D >:D :P

Another stunning advance in your mastery of colloquial Texan... :D

They weren't Jeffrey's choices, so I didn't feel I was stepping on his 'nads. BBC are deplorably tasteless in their choices. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 18, 2016, 05:52:33 AM

Quote from: vandermolen on May 18, 2016, 05:31:58 AMTheir recommended recordings for the Great Man are:

'Paris' Symphonies 82-87 (Norrington, Zurich CO, Sony)

Symphonies 6-8 (Kuijken, Accent)

The Creation (Herreweghe, Philips)

Quartets Op.33 (Cuarteto Casals, Harmonia Mundi)

Now back to Khachaturian's Third Symphony. 8)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2016, 05:40:06 AM
Not to be picky, but I would far rather go:

Paris' Symphonies 82-87 (Harnoncourt/ Concentus musicus Wien - DHM)

Symphonies 6-8 (Kuijken, Accent)

The Creation (McCreesh, Arkiv)

Quartets Op.33 (London Haydn Quartet, Hyperion)

Being picky:

Paris Symphonies 82-87: Fey and the Heidelbergers

Symphonies 6-8: Müllejans and Freiburger Barock

The Creation: Karajan/Berlin Phil (yeah, I know...go ahead, shoot me :D)

Quartets Op.33: Appónyi Quartet

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 18, 2016, 05:53:12 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2016, 05:46:48 AM
Another stunning advance in your mastery of colloquial Texan... :D

If you meant it seriously, I am flattered. If you were just being sarcastic, I probably deserved it. :)

Quote
They weren't Jeffrey's choices, so I didn't feel I was stepping on his 'nads. BBC are deplorably tasteless in their choices. :)

Dioesn´t BBC stand for Bad Boring Clueless? :laugh:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vandermolen on May 18, 2016, 06:04:59 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2016, 05:40:06 AM

PS - who for the Khachaturian?

8)

Stokowski. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on May 18, 2016, 06:07:22 AM

Just for fun: :)

'Paris' Symphonies 82-87 (Harnoncourt, CMW, DHM)

Symphonies 6-8 (Müllejans, Freiburger Barockorchester, HM)

The Creation (Hengelbrock, BNE, DHM)

Quartets Op.33 (Quatuor Mosaïques, Naïve)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 18, 2016, 06:08:20 AM

Quote from: vandermolen on May 18, 2016, 06:04:59 AM
Stokowski. 8)

Speaking of Khachaturyan --- my favorite moment is the flexatone solo in the second mvt of the PC. Pure bliss.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2016, 06:08:23 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 18, 2016, 05:52:33 AM
Being picky:

Paris Symphonies 82-87: Fey and the Heidelbergers

Symphonies 6-8: Müllejans and Freiburger Barock

The Creation: Karajan/Berlin Phil (yeah, I know...go ahead, shoot me :D)

Quartets Op.33: Appónyi Quartet

Sarge

I can easily take your Freiburger and Appónyi substitutions; I nearly made them myself. As for the rest, I will probably take you up on your offer... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2016, 06:10:03 AM

Quote from: vandermolen on May 18, 2016, 06:04:59 AM
Stokowski. 8)

Interesting. I could go for that. I honestly don't remember who I have, but it is on Chandos... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2016, 06:11:37 AM

Quote from: Gordo on May 18, 2016, 06:07:22 AM
Just for fun: :)

'Paris' Symphonies 82-87 (Harnoncourt, CMW, DHM)

Symphonies 6-8 (Müllejans, Freiburger Barockorchester, HM)

The Creation (Hengelbrock, BNE, DHM)

Quartets Op.33 (Quatuor Mosaïques, Naïve)

And then there are these. All of which makes me wonder what BBC was drinking when they began listing Haydn recordings. No one consulted with Da Haus... 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on May 18, 2016, 06:12:53 AM

The only of the BBC choices I have heard is Cuarteto Casals. It is very good but I think they are often too fast and breathless. So are the Apponyi/Freiburg but they have in addition also thin scratchy sound... - I do not really have a complete op.33 I am completely happy with.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2016, 06:15:02 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2016, 06:10:03 AM
Interesting. I could go for that. I honestly don't remember who I have, but it is on Chandos... :-\

8)

My bad, I have Symphony #2, not 3:

(https://www.chandos.net/hiresart/CHAN%208945.jpg)

Good recording though!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 18, 2016, 06:16:11 AM

I´m in the game.

Paris Symphonies 82-87: Adam Fischer, Austro-Hungarian Haydn Orchestra (don´t blindfold me, just shoot!)

Symphonies 6-8: Roy Goodman, The Hanover Band

The Creation: Karajan/Berlin Phil (Freiheit oder Tod, Bruder Sarge!)

Quartets Op.33: Buchberger Quartet

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2016, 06:16:51 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on May 18, 2016, 06:12:53 AM
The only of the BBC choices I have heard is Cuarteto Casals. It is very good but I think they are often too fast and breathless. So are the Apponyi/Freiburg but they have in addition also thin scratchy sound... - I do not really have a complete op.33 I am completely happy with.

Have you heard London Haydn Quartet? Playing is excellent, and recorded sound is superb. This was, IMO, a breakthrough recording for them, a big advance over their earlier ones in the series, which were also very good, but...

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on May 18, 2016, 06:24:45 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2016, 06:16:51 AM
Have you heard London Haydn Quartet? Playing is excellent, and recorded sound is superb. This was, IMO, a breakthrough recording for them, a big advance over their earlier ones in the series, which were also very good, but...

8)

The last part of your sentence makes sense to me in order to give them a new try. I have only listened to their ultra sweet Op. 9.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 18, 2016, 06:37:15 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on May 18, 2016, 06:12:53 AMthey are often too fast and breathless. So are the Apponyi but they have in addition also thin scratchy sound...

True, true...and yet I love them so much.

Quote from: Florestan on May 18, 2016, 06:16:11 AM
The Creation: Karajan/Berlin Phil (Freiheit oder Tod, Bruder Sarge!)

8) :D 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 18, 2016, 06:53:42 AM

Quote from: vandermolen on May 18, 2016, 06:04:59 AM
Stokowski. 8)

In its own way . . . perfection 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on May 18, 2016, 07:11:45 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2016, 06:16:51 AM
Have you heard London Haydn Quartet? Playing is excellent, and recorded sound is superb. This was, IMO, a breakthrough recording for them, a big advance over their earlier ones in the series, which were also very good, but...

No. I basically gave up or to put it better, I decided that Apponyi, Buchberger, Auryn, Casals as well as Weller and Angeles in collector's boxes and another 3 of my favorite, #3 (and here I think the live Smetana is quite perfect) were enough...
I admittedly also only became aware of the London Haydn Quartet's recording fairly recently and I would be more interested in their opp. 9 and 17.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2016, 07:38:26 AM

Quote from: Gordo on May 18, 2016, 06:24:45 AM
The last part of your sentence makes sense to me in order to give them a new try. I have only listened to their ultra sweet Op. 9.

Their Op 50 is the best one I have, BTW... ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vandermolen on May 18, 2016, 08:19:40 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2016, 06:15:02 AM
My bad, I have Symphony #2, not 3:

(https://www.chandos.net/hiresart/CHAN%208945.jpg)

Good recording though!

8)

OT

That's the best version of No.2 with its massively intimidating opening. There is a fine version of No.3 on Chandos too with a different conductor and orchestra:
[asin]B000000AVP[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vandermolen on May 18, 2016, 08:22:54 AM

Quote from: Florestan on May 18, 2016, 06:08:20 AM
Speaking of Khachaturyan --- my favorite moment is the flexatone solo in the second mvt of the PC. Pure bliss.

OT

Me too. I've been playing the PC a lot in the last couple of days. I had forgotten how good it is.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2016, 10:31:54 AM

Quote from: vandermolen on May 18, 2016, 08:19:40 AM
OT

That's the best version of No.2 with its massively intimidating opening. There is a fine version of No.3 on Chandos too with a different conductor and orchestra:
[asin]B000000AVP[/asin]

Thanks, I'll have to try that one, I love Caucasian Sketches too.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vandermolen on May 18, 2016, 11:40:29 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2016, 10:31:54 AM
Thanks, I'll have to try that one, I love Caucasian Sketches too.

8)

Me too. I am rather fond of Ippolitov-Ivanov.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2016, 11:45:49 AM

Quote from: vandermolen on May 18, 2016, 11:40:29 AM
Me too. I am rather fond of Ippolitov-Ivanov.

Me too, and I don't even know what a dadgum Sardar is! ???

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vandermolen on May 18, 2016, 12:07:37 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2016, 11:45:49 AM
Me too, and I don't even know what a dadgum Sardar is! ???

8)

Me neither. Clearly you now need to amend the title of this thread from 'Haydn's Haus' to 'Ippolitov-Ivanov's Dacha'.
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2016, 12:17:37 PM

Quote from: vandermolen on May 18, 2016, 12:07:37 PM
Me neither. Clearly you now need to amend the title of this thread from 'Haydn's Haus' to 'Ippolitov-Ivanov's Dacha'.
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: ritter on May 18, 2016, 12:58:25 PM

Sorry to interrupt this Russian diversion of the thread :D, but I was wondering if any of our seasoned and knowledgeable Haydnians (or Haydnists?) have heard this recording? Many thanks in advance...

Quote from: ritter on May 18, 2016, 09:26:54 AM
This pioneering recording of Haydn's last opera intrigues me (I don't know the piece at all).

[asin]B004RPQSG4[/asin]
It was made in 1950, a year before the (very) posthumous first staging (in Florence, with Maria Callas under the baton of Erich Kleiber).

Has anyone heard it? I'm sure our expert Haydnians have something to say ;)

Thanks and regards,

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2016, 01:15:39 PM

Quote from: ritter on May 18, 2016, 12:58:25 PM
Sorry to interrupt this Russian diversion of the thread :D, but I was wondering if any of our seasoned and knowledgeable Haydnians (or Haydnists?) have heard this recording? Many thanks in advance...

Ah, glad to be back!

A few years ago, I asked another old Haydnisto about recordings of that opera. He had every one of them, so... He told me not to spend any time or money on that one, because it was easily the worst of the lot, and very difficult to find at the time. Thus I never did.

As a result, I ended up with these 2:
[asin]B000004CYW[/asin]

and
[asin]B000001TXR[/asin]
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/512J3auuuCL.jpg)

I like them both about equally, although Bartoli can tip the scales one way or the other, depending on your opinion of her.

IIRC, you like historic recordings, and so it could well be that the older one is right for you, Both my late friend and myself were less attached to that aspect, so there was no sentimental value added. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: ritter on May 18, 2016, 01:32:53 PM

Thanks for this, Gurn! My interest in historic recordings comes and goes (depending on how nostalgic--or not--I'm feeling :D ). This one caught my attention because my experience with Haydn recordings from the heady days of the renaissance has usually been positive (e.g., Scherchen's and Goberman's symphonies, the Schneider's SQs). ..and this one is really pioneering ;). Also, Swarowsky has the "lost" recording of Wagner's Ring (recently reissued on Profil) which turns out to be rather good (within its limitations).

I knew about the Bartoli recording (I think she's a great artist, and yet on occasions I can't stand her singing ;) ), but not the one by La Stagione.

I've located a cheap copy of the Swarowsky...I remain tempted, and if I go for it, I'll let you know it it really is that bad ::)

Cheers,

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2016, 02:35:29 PM

Quote from: ritter on May 18, 2016, 01:32:53 PM
Thanks for this, Gurn! My interest in historic recordings comes and goes (depending on how nostalgic--or not--I'm feeling :D ). This one caught my attention because my experience with Haydn recordings from the heady days of the renaissance has usually been positive (e.g., Scherchen's and Goberman's symphonies, the Schneider's SQs). ..and this one is really pioneering ;). Also, Swarowsky has the "lost" recording of Wagner's Ring (recently reissued on Profil) which turns out to be rather good (within its limitations).

I knew about the Bartoli recording (I think she's a great artist, and yet on occasions I can't stand her singing ;) ), but not the one by La Stagione.

I've located a cheap copy of the Swarowsky...I remain tempted, and if I go for it, I'll let you know it it really is that bad ::)

Cheers,

Thanks, Ritter. I am curious, not least because the one you linked is a 2011 digital remaster, while the incarnation my friend wrote about was certainly not, since he died in 2008. Very likely his issue was SQ, so that should be improved. Another one which he said was equally bad, although possibly for different reasons, was the one on Orfeo, which I don't know more about.

I really do like the La Stagione recording, I had it before the Hogwood and it still gets equal playing time, which was substantial recently when I wrote an essay about the opera (http://tinyurl.com/hz5u8k3). The fact that it was completed in May, 1791, and premiered in Florence in c.1950 is totally amazing when you hear how fine it is. Oh well. :)

Cheers,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on May 18, 2016, 03:45:47 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2016, 01:15:39 PM
A few years ago, I asked another old Haydnisto about recordings of that opera. He had every one of them, so... He told me not to spend any time or money on that one, because it was easily the worst of the lot, and very difficult to find at the time. Thus I never did.

I actually heard the first act (maybe two) not so long ago. My impressions were: a) Singing quite mixed (from not so great to quite good), b) Sound was pretty bad, c) Good energy and spirit (in chorus and orchestra), and d) quite rough around the edges. It would definitely not be a first choice, but could be of interest for historical reasons.

I much prefer the Bartoli that Gurn posted above.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on May 18, 2016, 06:12:47 PM

My turn

Paris Symphonies OAE Kuijken
Creation McCreesh and company
String Quartets Op. 76 Qu. Mosaiques
Piano Trios 39, 43-45 Trio Wanderer

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on May 18, 2016, 08:31:39 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2016, 05:34:30 AM
Yes, when they were in boxes of three. :-\ One of the sad things about the first re-release came when I was told that the "liner notes" consisted of a track listing.... :(

Let me know if you drop the hammer though, and I can send you the entire 10 volumes of liner notes contained in a single very handy pdf. It's a deal maker as far as the box set goes. :)

8)

Heck, send it to me before I drop the hammer if you're willing. I would love them.

EDIT: I was just looking at discogs... wow, they were thick books and short CDs. At least, the volume I was just looking at. Almost every Haydn symphony disc I own fits 3 symphonies per disc, this was only 2 on each disc.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on May 18, 2016, 11:28:52 PM

I wonder if some of the earlier volumes even appeared as LP as well. Otherwise some of the shortish (around 60 min) playing times might stem from the fact that Hogwood does many repeats others skip and the chronological order often does not allow using a shorter work from another period as "filler". And in the 1990s discs were usually capped around 70 min. Longer playing times were possible but 75-82 min discs became far more frequent in the last 10 years.

As far as I recall they were also full price, so you were bound to pay about $45-50 for a single Volume in the mid-1990s.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 19, 2016, 04:41:44 AM

Quote from: orfeo on May 18, 2016, 08:31:39 PM
Heck, send it to me before I drop the hammer if you're willing. I would love them.

EDIT: I was just looking at discogs... wow, they were thick books and short CDs. At least, the volume I was just looking at. Almost every Haydn symphony disc I own fits 3 symphonies per disc, this was only 2 on each disc.

OK, when I get home tonight.

Oh yes, 2 symphonies per disk, except for Volume 1 which has some shorter works where they put more on. L'Oiseau Lyre was rather famous for being a super deluxe label which didn't place cost ahead of... cost! :o OTOH, I am very fond of every disk I have on that label. They feel like luxuries. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 19, 2016, 04:43:52 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on May 18, 2016, 11:28:52 PM
I wonder if some of the earlier volumes even appeared as LP as well. Otherwise some of the shortish (around 60 min) playing times might stem from the fact that Hogwood does many repeats others skip and the chronological order often does not allow using a shorter work from another period as "filler". And in the 1990s discs were usually capped around 70 min. Longer playing times were possible but 75-82 min discs became far more frequent in the last 10 years.

As far as I recall they were also full price, so you were bound to pay about $45-50 for a single Volume in the mid-1990s.

I am almost sure I have seen 1 or 2 volumes on LP, those wonderful L'OL boxes! And you are right about the chronology. If it was a tight fit, they wouldn't be able to keep within their overall model by placing something out of position.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on May 19, 2016, 05:27:06 AM

One should also recall that those discs were not particularly short for the early/mid 1990s when a) at least some discs still appeared on LP, so 55 min or so was considered acceptable b) there were some technical difficulties (at least with some players) with compact discs playing >75 min and c) one was still used to paying twice full price for a two-disc-set with a 80-90 min work like Bruckner's 8th...
So while no bargains (and apparently they did not sell all that well) these Haydn sets were nothing outlandish 20 years ago.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on May 19, 2016, 11:24:06 AM

Haydn 2032 Vol. 3 (Symphonies 4, 42, 64) confirmed for August. Cover image is ... sand dunes?
https://www.outhere-music.com/en/albums/upcoming

EDIT: Haydn 2032, not Haydn 2013!

EDIT II: And while I'm posting about it...

Vol. 4 "Il Distratto"
Symphonies 12, 60, 70
Cimarosa: Il Maestro di Cappella

Vol. 5 - live concerts planned, recordings to happen in conjunction
Symphonies 19, 80, 81
J.M. Kraus: a symphony (different symphonies are being performed at different concerts)
once concert includes Haydn aria sung by Nuria Rial

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 19, 2016, 11:28:25 AM

Quote from: Brian on May 19, 2016, 11:24:06 AM
Haydn 2013 Vol. 3 (Symphonies 4, 42, 64) confirmed for August. Cover image is ... sand dunes?

The Haydn Symphony project must flow . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on May 19, 2016, 11:51:42 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on May 19, 2016, 11:28:25 AM
The Haydn Symphony project must flow . . . .

Or it's all dried up. .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 19, 2016, 11:56:49 AM

Quote from: Brian on May 19, 2016, 11:24:06 AM
Haydn 2032 Vol. 3 (Symphonies 4, 42, 64) confirmed for August. Cover image is ... sand dunes?
https://www.outhere-music.com/en/albums/upcoming

EDIT: Haydn 2032, not Haydn 2013!

EDIT II: And while I'm posting about it...

Vol. 4 "Il Distratto"
Symphonies 12, 60, 70
Cimarosa: Il Maestro di Cappella

Vol. 5 - live concerts planned, recordings to happen in conjunction
Symphonies 19, 80, 81
J.M. Kraus: a symphony (different symphonies are being performed at different concerts)
once concert includes Haydn aria sung by Nuria Rial

I wish it was 'Haydn 2017'... :)

Thanks for the info, Brian. I hope I live long enough to see this project to the end. :blank:

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on May 19, 2016, 05:24:22 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on May 19, 2016, 05:27:06 AM
One should also recall that those discs were not particularly short for the early/mid 1990s when a) at least some discs still appeared on LP, so 55 min or so was considered acceptable b) there were some technical difficulties (at least with some players) with compact discs playing >75 min and c) one was still used to paying twice full price for a two-disc-set with a 80-90 min work like Bruckner's 8th...
So while no bargains (and apparently they did not sell all that well) these Haydn sets were nothing outlandish 20 years ago.

Your memories of the 1990s seem to be a bit different from mine. Still on LP? Really? In the early 1990s I was buying pop music LPs for one dollar because they were so thoroughly on the way out and the shop was desperate to get rid of them. I received my first CD player as a present in Christmas 1991 and we were way behind most people.

My set of London symphonies, released in 1994, has discs of 75, 75, 75 and 76 minutes. I'm sure I have plenty of others of that length from that period, and I was always told that the technical limitation was about 78 minutes. So I find myself extremely skeptical about any claim that it was consistently not possible for a 3rd symphony to be added.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 19, 2016, 06:06:37 PM

Quote from: orfeo on May 19, 2016, 05:24:22 PM
Your memories of the 1990s seem to be a bit different from mine. Still on LP? Really? In the early 1990s I was buying pop music LPs for one dollar because they were so thoroughly on the way out and the shop was desperate to get rid of them. I received my first CD player as a present in Christmas 1991 and we were way behind most people.

My set of London symphonies, released in 1994, has discs of 75, 75, 75 and 76 minutes. I'm sure I have plenty of others of that length from that period, and I was always told that the technical limitation was about 78 minutes. So I find myself extremely skeptical about any claim that it was consistently not possible for a 3rd symphony to be added.

I think that L'OL put 2 on a disk simply because they wanted to. There were very probably some occasional limitations with the chronology, I agree wit that, but overall, if they had wished to make these 2 disk sets, it would have been easy as could be.

My 10 boxes take 32cm of shelf space. (12.8"). That's a lot for 30 disks. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on May 19, 2016, 07:08:05 PM

Blockhead that I am, I only just thought to see if Hogwood's set was on my preferred streaming service, Deezer.

It is. Giving Volume 1 a whirl now. I don't rely on streaming services, but they're excellent as a means of assessing whether I want to purchase something. I did do some iTunes sampling a while back, but why not listen to some complete tracks and confirm?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on May 19, 2016, 07:49:59 PM

Quote from: orfeo on May 19, 2016, 05:24:22 PMMy set of London symphonies, released in 1994, has discs of 75, 75, 75 and 76 minutes. I'm sure I have plenty of others of that length from that period, and I was always told that the technical limitation was about 78 minutes. So I find myself extremely skeptical about any claim that it was consistently not possible for a 3rd symphony to be added.

The original technical specification of the CD had a 74 minute limit. That was in 1982. By the 1990's CD production and player performance made it possible to stretch this, eventually to 80 minutes or even a bit more. But I remember there was some concern at the time that older players might fail on discs that pushed the limit too much.

Aside from that, Jo498's main point is well taken. For a classical recording the cost of pressing the disc is very small compared with the cost of producing the music. Their business model at the time was for selling music in 45-55 minute increments. They couldn't remain profitable by selling in 80 minute increments without increasing the price proportionately. Probably they thought the public would find that unpalatable.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on May 19, 2016, 11:21:48 PM

As I explained, I think it was a combination of factors. It was not impossible to have long discs; I bought a Bruckner 5 at 76 min in 89 or 90 (and I also have the first CD issue of Bernstein's Concertgebouw Missa solemnis with 81 min. on two full priced discs).

But in the Hogwood series they apparently had meticulously planned it out as 15 3 disc sets in chronological order. Very obviously getting as much music on a disc (or even into a 3 disc set) as possible was not a main objective. I am looking at Vol. 2 with early pieces and there are 3, 4 and 3 symphonies on each disc with playing times from 54 to 64 minutes. Obviously with those shorter pieces at least two more could have been crammed on the set. But then there might not have been enough for Vol.3 without messing up the
And if you do a lot of repeats, some of the symphonies will last about 30 min instead of 22-25 and then, if there is no chronologically fitting shorter piece you could not put 3 symphonies on a disc at 79 min.

LPs were fading fast in the early 1990s, that's true. (My memory about record stores still being full of LPs as well as CDs might be a little before that time, more 1988 than 92.) I am not positive that any of the Hogwood series ever appeared on LP. But if the early ones did or if during the planning this was still an option, it would be another factor for shorter playing times.

In any case there were still a lot of LP length CDs and expensive double/triple sets around in the early to mid 1990s so that the Hogwood series would not have appeared an outlandishly priced luxury item. Pricey yes, but not out of the range. They failed to sell well enough and the series was abandoned so maybe they were too expensive in a sense after all. But those were common miscalculations when the CD boom of the mid-late 1980s had ebbed in the mid 1990s.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on May 20, 2016, 03:18:29 PM

(http://s32.postimg.org/5qasdptz9/Haydn_movie.jpg)

He was probed!!! ???

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 20, 2016, 03:57:21 PM

Quote from: Scion7 on May 20, 2016, 03:18:29 PM
(http://s32.postimg.org/5qasdptz9/Haydn_movie.jpg)

He was probed!!! ???

+1 :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on May 21, 2016, 04:02:28 AM

The complete silence from Hollywood and the total lack of response from Pinewood Studios to the "bait" I have posted in so public a forum for my idea of a sci-fi/historical drama on Haydn has been a crushing blow. :-X :'(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 21, 2016, 07:22:00 AM

Excerpt from

Louis Spohr´s Autobiography, translated from German

Longman, Green, Longman, Roberts & Green 1865

p. 46

(Place: St. Petersburg

Time: 1803)

On the other hand a performance of Haydn´s "Seasons" which was given for the benefit of a widow´s fund (also during Lent) was very well attended. [...] The orchestra was larger than any I had yet attended. It consisted of seventy violins, thirty bass and double sets of wind instruments. The whole was therefore something very grand and my diary mentions it with delight; as also of the work itself, which I then heard for the first time, although I estimated the "Creation" yet higher (author´s highlight)

Online here: https://books.google.ro/books?id=WHRKAQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=louis+spohr&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=louis%20spohr&f=false (https://books.google.ro/books?id=WHRKAQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=louis+spohr&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=louis%20spohr&f=false)

Sarge, our preference for Karajan´s Creation is vindicated with a vengeance (pun intended) 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2016, 07:27:30 AM

Quote from: Florestan on May 21, 2016, 07:22:00 AM
Excerpt from

Louis Spohr´s Autobiography, translated from German

Longman, Green, Longman, Roberts & Green 1865

p. 46

(Place: St. Petersburg

Time: 1803)

On the other hand a performance of Haydn´s "Seasons" which was given for the benefit of a widow´s fund (also during Lent) was very well attended. [...] The orchestra was larger than any I had yet attended. It consisted of seventy violins, thirty bass and double sets of wind instruments. The whole was therefore something very grand and my diary mentions it with delight; as also of the work itself, which I then heard for the first time, although I estimated the "Creation" yet higher (author´s highlight)

Online here: https://books.google.ro/books?id=WHRKAQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=louis+spohr&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=louis%20spohr&f=false (https://books.google.ro/books?id=WHRKAQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=louis+spohr&hl=en&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=louis%20spohr&f=false)

Sarge, our preference for Karajan´s Creation is vindicated with a vengeance (pun intended) 8)

I know Karajan was pretty old when he died, but 1803; that would be in vampire's years! :o

Although if you are just talking about Big Band Haydn, most HIP/PI bands play it with big forces too, it is an oratorio, after all, and not a chamber one either! :)

8)

PS - this would be worth your while, since you have that book available: somewhere in there, Spohr talks about Beethoven playing one of his concertos at a public performance, and he was leading the orchestra from the piano. I swear, it is about he funniest music related thing I ever read. It doesn't make fun of his deafness, but it does poke pretty hard about his impatience. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 21, 2016, 07:39:56 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2016, 07:27:30 AM
I know Karajan was pretty old when he died, but 1803; that would be in vampire's years! :o

Don´t thread on Scion7´s land! ;D

Quote
Although if you are just talking about Big Band Haydn, most HIP/PI bands play it with big forces too, it is an oratorio, after all, and not a chamber one either! :)

Why can´t you just fairplay--ishly admit defeat? >:D

Seventy violins, thirty bass and double sets of winds makes for about 150 players, excluding the soloists and the chorus, in 1803 AD --- far exceeding Berlioz´s wildest dreams for the premiere of La damnation de Faust in 1846 AD.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 21, 2016, 07:41:15 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2016, 07:27:30 AM
PS - this would be worth your while, since you have that book available: somewhere in there, Spohr talks about Beethoven playing one of his concertos at a public performance, and he was leading the orchestra from the piano. I swear, it is about he funniest music related thing I ever read. It doesn't make fun of his deafness, but it does poke pretty hard about his impatience. :)

I can hardly wait for that part. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2016, 07:43:28 AM

Quote from: Florestan on May 21, 2016, 07:39:56 AM
Don´t thread on Scion7´s land! ;D

Why can´t you just fairplay--ishly admit defeat? >:D

Seventy violins, thirty bass and double sets of winds makes for about 150 players, excluding the soloists and the chorus --- far exceeding Berlioz´s wildest dreams for the premiere of La damnation de Faust.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Karajan didn't really play it that big, did he? Isn't that a bit OTT? Even with his best whip and chair, I don't think anyone can get 70 violins to play to his impossible standards. However, when you are talking about double winds, quadruple strings, etc. it's all relative, isn't it? I'll see how big Gardiner plays it and get back to you. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2016, 07:45:30 AM

Quote from: Florestan on May 21, 2016, 07:41:15 AM
I can hardly wait for that part. :)

I've read the quoted page in another book and they said it was from Spohr's autobiography, so you should run up on it soon enough. Hint: he knocks one of the page-turner boys on his ass by mistake with a wild swing of his arm at the orchestra... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 21, 2016, 08:02:24 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2016, 07:43:28 AM
Karajan didn't really play it that big, did he? Isn't that a bit OTT?

Well, by Spohr´s standards Karajan was HIP. :laugh:

Quote
Even with his best whip and chair, I don't think anyone can get 70 violins to play to his impossible standards.

I (educatedly) infer that by "violins" Spohr meant first violins, second violins and violas, and that by "bass" he meant cellos and double basses.

Quote
However, when you are talking about double winds, quadruple strings, etc. it's all relative, isn't it?

As per Wikipedia on The Creation:

The oratorio is scored for three vocal soloists (soprano (S), tenor (T), and bass (B), with an incidental solo for alto (A) in the finale), four-part chorus (soprano, alto, tenor, bass), and a large Classical orchestra consisting of 3 flutes, 2 oboes, 2 clarinets, 2 bassoons, contrabassoon, 2 horns, 2 trumpets, alto, tenor, and bass trombones, timpani, and the usual string sections of first and second violins, violas, cellos, and double basses. For the recitatives a harpsichord or fortepiano is also used.

Now, you do the math according to Spohr --- actually, according to St. Petersburg´s Court Orchestra 1803... :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on May 21, 2016, 10:06:14 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2016, 07:27:30 AM
I know Karajan was pretty old when he died, but 1803; that would be in vampire's years! :o

Quote from: Florestan on May 21, 2016, 07:39:56 AM
Don´t thread on Scion7´s land! ;D

(http://s32.postimg.org/9543eeslh/FMCv_K.jpg)
Over the course of the centuries we will have many discussions . . .
the long years of many winters . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jlaurson on May 21, 2016, 10:10:07 AM

Quote from: Florestan on May 21, 2016, 07:22:00 AM

Sarge, our preference for Karajan´s Creation is vindicated with a vengeance (pun intended) 8)

That's how McCreesh recorded the Creation and it's magnificent!!! (Best of 2008, #5: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/12/best-recordings-of-2008.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/12/best-recordings-of-2008.html))

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2016, 10:23:14 AM

Quote from: jlaurson on May 21, 2016, 10:10:07 AM
That's how McCreesh recorded the Creation and it's magnificent!!! (Best of 2008, #5: http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/12/best-recordings-of-2008.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2008/12/best-recordings-of-2008.html))

Agreed. It is, in fact, the version I recommended at the beginning of this whole thing. I know he is working on a new 'Seasons' now, I'm hoping he intends it the same way. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on May 21, 2016, 04:23:24 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 18, 2016, 05:52:33 AM
Being picky:

Paris Symphonies 82-87: Fey and the Heidelbergers

Symphonies 6-8: Müllejans and Freiburger Barock

The Creation: Karajan/Berlin Phil (yeah, I know...go ahead, shoot me :D)

Quartets Op.33: Appónyi Quartet

Paris Symphonies 82-87: Bruggen / Orchestra of the 18th Century

Symphonies 6-8: Chmura /National Arts Center Orchestra

The Creation: Fruhbeck de Burgos / Philharmonia Orchestra

Quartets Op.33: Appónyi Quartet

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2016, 04:26:32 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 18, 2016, 05:40:06 AM
Thank you, sir, very kind, I'm sure.

Not to be picky, but I would far rather go:

'Paris' Symphonies 82-87 (Harnoncourt/ Concentus musicus Wien - DHM)

Symphonies 6-8 (Kuijken, Accent)

The Creation (McCreesh, Arkiv)

Quartets Op.33 (London Haydn Quartet, Hyperion)

But hey, that's just me. :D

I'll hold 'em... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 24, 2016, 01:41:59 AM

Spohr´s Memoirs are a treasure trove!

Frankenhausen Music Festival, 1809

The Creation

Soloists: STB
Choir: S(28)A(20)T(20)B(30)
Orchestra: 106 members

Grand total 207

:D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 28, 2016, 04:57:30 PM

I don't suppose anyone wants to listen to an interview with Gurn (http://fugueforthought.de/2016/05/29/podcast-haydn-seek-pt-1), but in the event you are up for it, this one is pretty good. The interviewer is in Taipei, Taiwan, so we had to talk really loudly, but it worked out well in the end! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on May 28, 2016, 05:04:46 PM

(http://s33.postimg.org/w21u94wzz/IMG_0273.jpg)

If I may be allowed a brief off topic post, these are shelves that my girlfriend installed last week. (The ones I mention earlier in this thread.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Autumn Leaves on May 28, 2016, 05:08:15 PM

Quote from: George on May 28, 2016, 05:04:46 PM
(http://s33.postimg.org/w21u94wzz/IMG_0273.jpg)

If I may be allowed a brief off topic post, these are shelves that my girlfriend installed last week. (The ones I mention earlier in this thread.)

Hey George, I was just viewing these pictures on SHF - I think your collection looks fantastic!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on May 28, 2016, 05:25:01 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 28, 2016, 04:57:30 PM
I don't suppose anyone wants to listen to an interview with Gurn (http://fugueforthought.de/2016/05/29/podcast-haydn-seek-pt-1), but in the event you are up for it, this one is pretty good. The interviewer is in Taipei, Taiwan, so we had to talk really loudly, but it worked out well in the end! :)

8)

Thanks, Gurn!!! It's great hear your voice after some years of written conversations... :)

BTW, the sound is crystal clear.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 28, 2016, 05:32:31 PM

Quote from: Gordo on May 28, 2016, 05:25:01 PM
Thanks, Gurn!!! It's great hear your voice after some years of written conversations... :)

BTW, the sound is crystal clear.

Thanks, Gordo. I had a very nice time doing that interview. I may have even made a new Haydnista! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 28, 2016, 05:33:55 PM

Quote from: George on May 28, 2016, 05:04:46 PM
(http://s33.postimg.org/w21u94wzz/IMG_0273.jpg)

If I may be allowed a brief off topic post, these are shelves that my girlfriend installed last week. (The ones I mention earlier in this thread.)

Very nice, George. That's a good chunk of shelf in a small space!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on May 28, 2016, 05:36:10 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 28, 2016, 05:33:55 PM
Very nice, George. That's a good chunk of shelf in a small space!

8)

Thanks! And thanks, Conor!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 28, 2016, 08:50:40 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 28, 2016, 04:57:30 PM
I don't suppose anyone wants to listen to an interview with Gurn (http://fugueforthought.de/2016/05/29/podcast-haydn-seek-pt-1), but in the event you are up for it, this one is pretty good. The interviewer is in Taipei, Taiwan, so we had to talk really loudly, but it worked out well in the end! :)

Hi Gurn - just listened to your entire interview - well done! I like the guy who interviewed you - sounded quite American regarding your Taiwan reference above - any further links to parts 2/3? Thanks for the link - AND, you seem to have a New England accent - ;) Dave

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on May 28, 2016, 08:56:22 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 28, 2016, 04:57:30 PM
I don't suppose anyone wants to listen to an interview with Gurn (http://fugueforthought.de/2016/05/29/podcast-haydn-seek-pt-1), but in the event you are up for it, this one is pretty good. The interviewer is in Taipei, Taiwan, so we had to talk really loudly, but it worked out well in the end! :)

8)

Your name isn't really Gurn? :o

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 28, 2016, 09:00:46 PM

Quote from: Daverz on May 28, 2016, 08:56:22 PM
Your name isn't really Gurn? :o

Dave - LOL! :) Well, I think we all knew that Gurn Blanston was likely a phony name - ;) Dave

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on May 28, 2016, 09:28:50 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 28, 2016, 09:00:46 PM
Dave - LOL! :) Well, I think we all knew that Gurn Blanston was likely a phony name - ;) Dave

And all this time I'm thinking, "Poor bastard, his parents were so cruel, I'll go easy on him..." Well, now the molley-coddling is over, buster.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on May 29, 2016, 05:01:20 AM

(https://3mbs.org.au/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/4789604.jpg)

Now enjoying symphonies 21-24, conducted by Hogwood. Really liking how as you listen through the symphonies you can really hear the composers development in writing for the genre. And I especially love how the symphonies become increasingly more energetic, dramatic and robust as you move forward chronologically. I used to have a hard time with Haydn, always wishing he'd push things further, like Beethoven does. Perhaps it's due to getting older, but I like the more toned down classical style of Haydn now. If I want Beethoven, I always have him.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 29, 2016, 05:59:13 AM

Quote from: Daverz on May 28, 2016, 08:56:22 PM
Your name isn't really Gurn? :o

Actually, Gurn stands for Gottlieb Uwe Reinhardt Nepomuk. Ask Gurn himself, if in doubt.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 29, 2016, 06:46:48 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on May 28, 2016, 08:50:40 PM
Hi Gurn - just listened to your entire interview - well done! I like the guy who interviewed you - sounded quite American regarding your Taiwan reference above - any further links to parts 2/3? Thanks for the link - AND, you seem to have a New England accent - ;) Dave

Thanks, Dave! I think he is planning on releasing the other 2 parts a few weeks apart, judging how he spaced out other podcasts there in the right sidebar of his blog, every 3-4 weeks. I think he spent a good deal of time in Atlanta, thus the accent. I visited New England once, long long ago.... 0:)

Quote from: Daverz on May 28, 2016, 08:56:22 PM
Your name isn't really Gurn? :o

No, sorry Dave. My mother calls me Gurn though, if that is any consolation. It is a nom de plume I adopted 35 years ago, far more people know me by that name than my real one, too late to turn back now. :-\

Quote from: Florestan on May 29, 2016, 05:59:13 AM
Actually, Gurn stands for Gottlieb Uwe Reinhardt Nepomuk. Ask Gurn himself, if in doubt.

Yep, strewth. ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 29, 2016, 06:53:00 AM

Quote from: George on May 29, 2016, 05:01:20 AM
(https://3mbs.org.au/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/4789604.jpg)

Now enjoying symphonies 21-24, conducted by Hogwood. Really liking how as you listen through the symphonies you can really hear the composers development in writing for the genre. And I especially love how the symphonies become increasingly more energetic, dramatic and robust as you move forward chronologically. I used to have a hard time with Haydn, always wishing he'd push things further, like Beethoven does. Perhaps it's due to getting older, but I like the more toned down classical style of Haydn now. If I want Beethoven, I always have him.

That's excellent news, George. That is one of the things I like about the way Hogwood is laid out; they really are in chronological order, so you can do things like that. I mean, who would have guessed that the actual 1 - 10 order was 1, 37, 18, 2, 4, 27, 10 & 20 ??? It makes so much more sense when you hear 6, 7 & 8 and realize they are really 18, 19 & 20!

And hell yes, there will always be Beethoven! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: fugueforthought on May 30, 2016, 03:32:40 AM

Hi guys! Thought I'd pitch in here and say hello and thanks! I saw some traffic coming from this thread on the blog, so thought I'd come over and check it out. I signed up yesterday regarding the Rene Leibowitz thread in the Composers section.
Gurn Blanston was a wonderful guest, and I very much enjoyed our discussion. Parts two and three will be coming a bit later (part two perhaps in June, part three after that).
As to sounding American, I am American. (Spoiler alert!) Hail from the deep south, been in Taipei about seven years now.
Thanks for the kind words about the podcast. It's a homemade operation, but I'm enjoying it very much, especially with guests like Gurn.

Also, as for that Decca Haydn Cycle on period instruments, any word on it being in iTunes any time soon? Gurn suggested it and I am looking to get my hands on it.
Thx again!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 30, 2016, 06:40:53 AM

Quote from: fugueforthought on May 30, 2016, 03:32:40 AM
Hi guys! Thought I'd pitch in here and say hello and thanks! I saw some traffic coming from this thread on the blog, so thought I'd come over and check it out. I signed up yesterday regarding the Rene Leibowitz thread in the Composers section.
Gurn Blanston was a wonderful guest, and I very much enjoyed our discussion. Parts two and three will be coming a bit later (part two perhaps in June, part three after that).
As to sounding American, I am American. (Spoiler alert!) Hail from the deep south, been in Taipei about seven years now.
Thanks for the kind words about the podcast. It's a homemade operation, but I'm enjoying it very much, especially with guests like Gurn.

Also, as for that Decca Haydn Cycle on period instruments, any word on it being in iTunes any time soon? Gurn suggested it and I am looking to get my hands on it.
Thx again!

Welcome to Da Haus, FFT. Pleasure to have you join us here. Also to hear that you have had some visitors from our little Haydn Empire over to visit you.

Wish I could answer your iTunes question but I don't do downloads much, or anything Apple at all. It would be a surprise if they didn't have it soon, though! :o

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 30, 2016, 08:53:41 AM

It seems like forever since Haydn hopped on the boat at Calais and headed for Dover! Now, even going home again involves adventures like the crowning of an Emperor, and meetings with the young version of The Grand Mogul and his patron. Oh yes, and music publishers. Always need business! So I took a look at all this even while Haydn was sitting in the parlor with a well-earned moment of putting up his feet and maybe having a pipe. Works for me!

Nice, quiet Vienna! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2016/05/1792-the-year-part-6-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on May 30, 2016, 03:34:04 PM

Quote from: fugueforthought on May 30, 2016, 03:32:40 AM
Also, as for that Decca Haydn Cycle on period instruments, any word on it being in iTunes any time soon? Gurn suggested it and I am looking to get my hands on it.

Hi, FFT! I think you don't need to wait for that complete set to start your listen of the Haydn's symphonies. I have seen available on iTunes at least the first five sets by Hogwood and his gang; therefore, you have a lot of symphonies played on period instruments, to begin your travel as soon as possible.

P.S.: BTW, that was a nice conversation with our Gurn! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: fugueforthought on May 30, 2016, 03:50:18 PM

Hello Gordo!
Thank you for the kind words about the podcast. I just asked questions. He's very enjoyable to listen to and chat with, as I'm sure you guys know.
As for the Hogwood in iTunes, I'd rather wait and get the whole box than buy it piecemeal. Music in iTunes here is SO much cheaper (sometimes less than half of the going price online) (even than in American iTunes), but I'm hoping the whole set goes up sometime soon. I have the first few installments of Adam Fischer's traversal since it doesn't appear it will ever be in one big box, but it's not on period instruments. I understand it's a very new release, so perhaps the patience will pay off.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 30, 2016, 11:58:10 PM

Quote from: fugueforthought on May 30, 2016, 03:50:18 PM
I have the first few installments of Adam Fischer's traversal since it doesn't appear it will ever be in one big box

It´s in one big box:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71kqpIqa7gL._SL1381_.jpg)

and in one very big box

(http://s017.radikal.ru/i441/1308/2d/cde772832cb5.jpg)

I concur with the other posters: nice interview!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 31, 2016, 04:37:36 AM

Quote from: Florestan on May 30, 2016, 11:58:10 PM
It´s in one big box:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71kqpIqa7gL._SL1381_.jpg)

and in one very big box

(http://s017.radikal.ru/i441/1308/2d/cde772832cb5.jpg)

I concur with the other posters: nice interview!

I figure it must not be so on iTunes. Perhaps they lease the Nimbus version, which was, like 3 or 4 disks in a box, IIRC. :-\ Although I do figure that if you will have modern instruments, Fischer is the one to have. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 31, 2016, 05:49:47 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 28, 2016, 05:32:31 PM
Thanks, Gordo. I had a very nice time doing that interview. I may have even made a new Haydnista! :)

8)

Huzzah!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on May 31, 2016, 05:59:37 AM

Quote from: fugueforthought on May 30, 2016, 03:50:18 PM
As for the Hogwood in iTunes, I'd rather wait and get the whole box than buy it piecemeal. Music in iTunes here is SO much cheaper (sometimes less than half of the going price online) (even than in American iTunes), but I'm hoping the whole set goes up sometime soon.

Yes, you're right; i was thinking of Apple Music, as a way to listen to the music online because very rarely I purchase music in digital format. But I forgot not everyone is an Apple Music subscriber. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 31, 2016, 06:01:57 AM

"The Resistance," we are known as 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on May 31, 2016, 12:52:46 PM

Quote from: karlhenning on May 31, 2016, 06:01:57 AM
"The Resistance," we are known as 8)

:D ;D :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on May 31, 2016, 06:56:33 PM

Quote from: Florestan on May 30, 2016, 11:58:10 PM
It´s in one big box:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71kqpIqa7gL._SL1381_.jpg)

and in one very big box

(http://s017.radikal.ru/i441/1308/2d/cde772832cb5.jpg)

I concur with the other posters: nice interview!

And also in this big box, along with Barshai's Shostakovitch cycle and a few other gems that make me glad I have it
[asin]B000WM9ZPM[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on June 10, 2016, 05:26:15 AM

I was reading in the "Haydn Symphonies" thread--some talk about Fey. Criticism and defense. I've often seen Sarge mention him in "now listening". I finally started listening myself. Threw on 83, randomly. :-*It's working very well for me. I can generally find something to like in whatever I'm playing, but my first impression is a really nice balance between big and small forces sound--maybe getting the best of both (or is that just because I have the volume up more than usual 8)?) Energy, spontaneity, flexibility, and sound and balance almost as good as in the Bruno Weil. Anyway, I'm going to be playing more of Fey.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 10, 2016, 05:36:59 AM

There is probably no doubt that Fey is exciting and I think he is very good in some pieces, including most of the "Paris" set. But he can be mannered like hell, outdoing Harnoncourt in strange tempo shifts and extremes of tempo. Check for instance the 3rd movement of #104 with a crazily fast main section and trio at half speed. Or the finale of #70 where he IMO hurts the somewhat "deadpan" ending with weird tempo shifts.
For many listeners it will be a love him or hate him thing. I find it often interesting but not always convincing and so I became somewhat wary and only slowly bought more of his recordings.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on June 10, 2016, 06:11:36 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on June 10, 2016, 05:36:59 AM
There is probably no doubt that Fey is exciting and I think he is very good in some pieces, including most of the "Paris" set. But he can be mannered like hell, outdoing Harnoncourt in strange tempo shifts and extremes of tempo. Check for instance the 3rd movement of #104 with a crazily fast main section and trio at half speed. Or the finale of #70 where he IMO hurts the somewhat "deadpan" ending with weird tempo shifts.
For many listeners it will be a love him or hate him thing. I find it often interesting but not always convincing and so I became somewhat wary and only slowly bought more of his recordings.

I'm not sure I understand the heart of your criticism. Do you feel what Fey is doing in 104, 70 etc. just doesn't work, or you dislike it because you feel he is not following Haydn's score?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 11, 2016, 07:11:51 PM

When I began looking at 1792, I figured it was just like any other year, I would be done in no time. Ha! Well, now I have wrapped it up, and it only took 10 essays to make it so, because I skipped a bunch of interesting stuff. But what I kept is pretty interesting, since this was the year that started out mourning Mozart, but ended up welcoming Beethoven. have a look, it is my 3rd anniversary post!

Ring out the old, roll in the new! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2016/06/1792-the-music-the-year-part-10.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 11, 2016, 11:43:07 PM

Quote from: Mookalafalas on June 10, 2016, 06:11:36 AM
I'm not sure I understand the heart of your criticism. Do you feel what Fey is doing in 104, 70 etc. just doesn't work, or you dislike it because you feel he is not following Haydn's score?

Rather the former. There is of course nothing in the score to indicate such tempo changes but at least in the case of menuetto vs. trio section it can maybe made plausible that those sometimes were played differently. Harnoncourt does the same in some movements, e.g. very obviously in Mozart's 39 and 40 where the trios would probably be unlistenable or unplayable at the tempo he takes for the main menuetto sections.
(To my knowledge the dominant position among researchers is that there was no tempo change between menuetto and trio, unless indicated, but I am not a musicologist. At least Beethoven explicitly writes a slower tempo for some trios (e.g. in the 4th and 7th symphonies) which could be taken as an indication that normally there was no tempo change. Against this, I think, Harnoncourt argues that there were different types of menuetts and a trio could belong to a different type than the main section and contemporary musicians would have recognized the more lyrical type of the trio and accordingly played it more slowly.)

I am fine with trying out lots of things and taking liberties but it has to "work" for me. Fey is often going for maximal contrasts which is often effective and dramatic but some of what he does I find simply mannered and irritating with repeated listening. And there is almost always a pay-off between destroying continuity and coherence to some extent and exaggerating details for dramatic effect.

technical note: I do not quite understand why you did not respond in the thread on symphonies. Wouldn't it have fit better there?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on June 11, 2016, 11:47:30 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on June 11, 2016, 11:43:07 PM
Rather the former. There is of course nothing in the score to indicate such tempo changes but at least in the case of menuetto vs. trio section it can maybe made plausible that those sometimes were played differently. Harnoncourt does the same in some movements, e.g. very obviously in Mozart's 39 and 40 where the trio would probably be unlistenable or unplayable at the tempo he takes for the main menuetto section.

I am fine with trying out lots of things and taking liberties but it has to "work" for me. Fey is often going for maximal contrasts which is often effective and dramatic but some of what he does I find simply mannered and irritating with repeated listening. And there is almost always a pay-off between destroying continuity and coherence to some extent and exaggerating details for dramatic effect.

technical note: I do not quite understand why you did not respond in the thread on symphonies. Wouldn't it have fit better there?

I appreciate your answer. Thanks.
About the thread, I originally meant to post it in the other, but just saw this one first.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on June 20, 2016, 09:51:03 AM

Can someone comment on Ludger Rémy's recording? Like, is it interesting and why?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 20, 2016, 10:14:40 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on June 20, 2016, 09:51:03 AM
Can someone comment on Ludger Rémy's recording? Like, is it interesting and why?

Depends on your interests. He is a very competent pianist, but these are the most often recorded sonatas, so nothing new there, lots of competition. I like it because he plays on an original 1795 Broadwood pianoforte with quite its own sound. If you don't already have 18 versions of these works (I do), this is as nice as any of them so it would make a nice 'keeper' for you.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on June 20, 2016, 10:31:48 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 20, 2016, 10:14:40 AM
Depends on your interests. He is a very competent pianist, but these are the most often recorded sonatas, so nothing new there, lots of competition. I like it because he plays on an original 1795 Broadwood pianoforte with quite its own sound. If you don't already have 18 versions of these works (I do), this is as nice as any of them so it would make a nice 'keeper' for you.

8)

It's the last sonata that interests me. It all started listening to two performers -- Beghin (the one on the English well tempered piano) and McCabe -- what I saw was that so many of the other pianists are clueless about the rhetoric of the first movement (that's Beghin's strength -- the colours of the piano seem to help him present the music as an argument, a discourse), and clueless about the music's affects (that's McCabe's strength, he plays the first movement as if it's as full of feeling as something by Beethoven -- not just a bit of papa's witty banter.)

I'd be particularly interested in the Remy if it is interesting from the point of view of the affects.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on June 20, 2016, 10:56:11 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 31, 2016, 04:37:36 AM
I figure it must not be so on iTunes. Perhaps they lease the Nimbus version, which was, like 3 or 4 disks in a box, IIRC. :-\ Although I do figure that if you will have modern instruments, Fischer is the one to have. :)

8)

Davies is my favorite (for symphonies with no Harnoncourt recording, of course). :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: carlito77 on June 23, 2016, 01:00:46 PM

Wow, I wasn't aware that the Austrian and German national anthem was originally written by Haydn, at least the melody part of it. Was reading some interesting facts about Haydn and discovered this. So, Austria and Germany both share the same national anthem with different lyrics? Very interesting.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on June 23, 2016, 03:24:08 PM

Quote from: carlito77 on June 23, 2016, 01:00:46 PM
Wow, I wasn't aware that the Austrian and German national anthem was originally written by Haydn, at least the melody part of it. Was reading some interesting facts about Haydn and discovered this. So, Austria and Germany both share the same national anthem with different lyrics? Very interesting.

Currently just Germany, if I'm correct.

More about the Kaiserhymne here:. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gott_erhalte_Franz_den_Kaiser

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 23, 2016, 11:03:47 PM

As it was "Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser", the hymn was gone when the Austrian Empire fell in 1918. This is not true. I looked it up. The melody was used in the 1920 with a different text. The current anthem was established in 1946.

The current anthem is "Land der Berge, Land am Strome" and the melody was rumored to be by Mozart (as "Bundeslied"), but this is by now doubtful.

BTW before the German anthem with the Haydn melody was used, there was also a hymn to the emperor with the melody of God save the King, namely "Heil dir im Siegerkranz"

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 28, 2016, 07:42:56 PM

This is most peculiar. Suddenly I own Haydn compositions that were written before the 1780s.

[asin]B002IVRBBU[/asin]

I decided I might as well explore these chronologically. So right now I'm experiencing Haydn circa 1749. Egads. That Mozart kid hasn't even born yet.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 29, 2016, 04:45:48 AM

Quote from: orfeo on June 28, 2016, 07:42:56 PM
This is most peculiar. Suddenly I own Haydn compositions that were written before the 1780s.

[asin]B002IVRBBU[/asin]

I decided I might as well explore these chronologically. So right now I'm experiencing Haydn circa 1749. Egads. That Mozart kid hasn't even born yet.

You got the right box for that exploration too, Orfeo. Among other things, it contains Haydn's very first complete composition (the F major Mass) and his very last one (the Harmoniemese). Excellent performances too. I started listening to masses because I felt I had a duty to do it, but I ended up listening to them intentionally ( :o :o ), and not least because of great recordings like that one. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 29, 2016, 04:49:52 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 29, 2016, 04:45:48 AM
You got the right box for that exploration too, Orfeo.

I know. I was paying attention when you recommended it!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 29, 2016, 05:18:28 AM

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on July 08, 2016, 11:37:07 AM

Hey, HIPsters!

(http://ecstatic.textalk.se/shop/17115/art15/h1257/4981257-origpic-c5e72e.jpg)

Note from BIS CEO Robert von Bahr:

"No, this music doesn't normally really appeal to me, but I am fortunately a minority of one. Anyway, when I hear the music being played like this, by the not-so-new Chiaroscuro Quartet [formed in 2005 and starring Alina Ibragimova (Russia), Pablo Hernán Benedí (Spain), Emilie Hörnlund (Sweden) and Claire Thirion (France)], all playing on period instruments, even I melt.

"I really cannot understand how people can have anything against listening to music, performed in the style of the compositional period on instruments, for which the works were written. When authenticity can be coupled with musical prowess, like here, it just leaves nothing to be wished for."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on July 08, 2016, 11:49:43 AM

By the way, over the Fourth of July weekend, I took Sarge's advice and road-tripped with early Haydn symphonies from the Hogwood/Dantone/Brüggen box. Specifically 6-8 and 16-20. But I also brought the disc containing symphonies 53 and 62, two of the rare Haydn symphonies I had still never heard.

And why didn't you guys tell me that 53 is great!! Wow was I bowled over by that piece. The first movement in particular strikes me as the most "Mozartean" Haydn I've ever heard (though it was written in the 1770s - nice of Decca to include rough composition dates for each work). I guess what I'm thinking of in particular is the development section, with the highly contrapuntal string writing and the great spotlit contributions from woodwinds. But also the general feel - to me, listening to a Mozart symphony, with its delicate phrase-by-phrase perfection, is like looking inside a watch and seeing how the movement works. Haydn symphonies are more "human," which is a cliché, and not a useful one. A lot of people take "human" to mean "imperfect". In this context, to me, it means that encountering a new Haydn symphony is like meeting a really cool person at a party. Maybe you want to think of Mozart's oeuvre as a series of precious gems, or a series of Swiss watches, or a stroll through an art gallery - I think of Haydn's as a great big party with a bunch of eccentric characters sipping beers.

Anyway. The point is, the first movement of 53 was an exception to that rule, indeed an opposite of it, and so it fascinated me.

By the way, I woke up a few nights ago with the slow movement of 67 (and its col legno!) bouncing around my head. And 80 is rapidly joining my Top Ten.

Down to just four Haydn symphonies that, to my knowledge, my ears have never heard: 61, 71, 74, 76. My log also indicates 31 ("hornsignal") but I simply can't believe that - it must be a mistake.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on July 08, 2016, 11:56:04 AM

Quote from: Brian on July 08, 2016, 11:49:43 AM
By the way, over the Fourth of July weekend, I took Sarge's advice and road-tripped with early Haydn symphonies from the Hogwood/Dantone/Brüggen box. Specifically 6-8 and 16-20. But I also brought the disc containing symphonies 53 and 62, two of the rare Haydn symphonies I had still never heard.

And why didn't you guys tell me that 53 is great!! Wow was I bowled over by that piece. The first movement in particular strikes me as the most "Mozartean" Haydn I've ever heard (though it was written in the 1770s - nice of Decca to include rough composition dates for each work). I guess what I'm thinking of in particular is the development section, with the highly contrapuntal string writing and the great spotlit contributions from woodwinds. But also the general feel - to me, listening to a Mozart symphony, with its delicate phrase-by-phrase perfection, is like looking inside a watch and seeing how the movement works. Haydn symphonies are more "human," which is a cliché, and not a useful one. A lot of people take "human" to mean "imperfect". In this context, to me, it means that encountering a new Haydn symphony is like meeting a really cool person at a party. Maybe you want to think of Mozart's oeuvre as a series of precious gems, or a series of Swiss watches, or a stroll through an art gallery - I think of Haydn's as a great big party with a bunch of eccentric characters sipping beers.

Anyway. The point is, the first movement of 53 was an exception to that rule, indeed an opposite of it, and so it fascinated me.

By the way, I woke up a few nights ago with the slow movement of 67 (and its col legno!) bouncing around my head. And 80 is rapidly joining my Top Ten.

Down to just four Haydn symphonies that, to my knowledge, my ears have never heard: 61, 71, 74, 76. My log also indicates 31 ("hornsignal") but I simply can't believe that - it must be a mistake.

Is there a Haydn symphony that is not at least very very good?
I suppose only a complete relisten will allow an answer to that question.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 08, 2016, 12:05:47 PM

Quote from: Brian on July 08, 2016, 11:49:43 AM
And why didn't you guys tell me that 53 is great!!

Symphonies 1 through 108 are great! There...that about covers it 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 08, 2016, 12:08:45 PM

Quote from: Brian on July 08, 2016, 11:49:43 AM
By the way, over the Fourth of July weekend, I took Sarge's advice and road-tripped with early Haydn symphonies from the Hogwood/Dantone/Brüggen box. Specifically 6-8 and 16-20. But I also brought the disc containing symphonies 53 and 62, two of the rare Haydn symphonies I had still never heard.

And why didn't you guys tell me that 53 is great!! Wow was I bowled over by that piece. The first movement in particular strikes me as the most "Mozartean" Haydn I've ever heard (though it was written in the 1770s - nice of Decca to include rough composition dates for each work). I guess what I'm thinking of in particular is the development section, with the highly contrapuntal string writing and the great spotlit contributions from woodwinds. But also the general feel - to me, listening to a Mozart symphony, with its delicate phrase-by-phrase perfection, is like looking inside a watch and seeing how the movement works. Haydn symphonies are more "human," which is a cliché, and not a useful one. A lot of people take "human" to mean "imperfect". In this context, to me, it means that encountering a new Haydn symphony is like meeting a really cool person at a party. Maybe you want to think of Mozart's oeuvre as a series of precious gems, or a series of Swiss watches, or a stroll through an art gallery - I think of Haydn's as a great big party with a bunch of eccentric characters sipping beers.

Anyway. The point is, the first movement of 53 was an exception to that rule, indeed an opposite of it, and so it fascinated me.

By the way, I woke up a few nights ago with the slow movement of 67 (and its col legno!) bouncing around my head. And 80 is rapidly joining my Top Ten.

Down to just four Haydn symphonies that, to my knowledge, my ears have never heard: 61, 71, 74, 76. My log also indicates 31 ("hornsignal") but I simply can't believe that - it must be a mistake.

Man, great trip! Perfect music too.

I am a big fan of the Imperial symphony. Even though it has a relatively low number, it is a relatively late symphony, dating from 1778. Here is some background, the history of that bugger is one of the biggest knots of yarn I ever tried to unravel! :D

Symphony #53 (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/10/1778-the-music-part-1-.html)

I remember reading somewhere a long time ago that using col legno in the Symphonie fantastique was one of Berlioz' original contributions to music. But Haydn already had been there (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/07/1775-the-music-part-2-.html) in 1775!

Glad you got a chance to fill in some gaps, Brian. All Haydn needs is a chance to entertain you, and he will, sure as hell! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on July 08, 2016, 12:19:27 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 08, 2016, 12:08:45 PM
Man, great trip! Perfect music too.

I am a big fan of the Imperial symphony. Even though it has a relatively low number, it is a relatively late symphony, dating from 1778. Here is some background, the history of that bugger is one of the biggest knots of yarn I ever tried to unravel! :D

Symphony #53 (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/10/1778-the-music-part-1-.html)

Thanks so much for your blog post on this - as usual, of course! The Decca box includes the two finales, but without explaining what was going on, and not having read your post until now, I thought maybe it was some kind of weird monster finale in multiple parts. It all makes sense now...sort of 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 08, 2016, 12:33:29 PM

Quote from: Brian on July 08, 2016, 12:19:27 PM
Thanks so much for your blog post on this - as usual, of course! The Decca box includes the two finales, but without explaining what was going on, and not having read your post until now, I thought maybe it was some kind of weird monster finale in multiple parts. It all makes sense now...sort of 8)

Yup, 'sort of' sums it up, I must admit. I don't have it with 2 finales together, I have one on one disk and the other on a different one. It wasn't quite so ominous that way! :)

Glad it helped, that surely is a great symphony!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on July 11, 2016, 02:05:46 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 08, 2016, 12:08:45 PM
I remember reading somewhere a long time ago that using col legno in the Symphonie fantastique was one of Berlioz' original contributions to music. But Haydn already had been there (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/07/1775-the-music-part-2-.html) in 1775!

AFAIK the earliest col legno is in Biber's Battalia from 1673. But it has always been an unusual effect.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 11, 2016, 02:20:54 PM

Quote from: Pat B on July 11, 2016, 02:05:46 PM
AFAIK the earliest col legno is in Biber's Battalia from 1673. But it has always been an unusual effect.

That makes sense to me, there wasn't much that Biber didn't do! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 11, 2016, 03:20:31 PM

Quote from: Brian on July 08, 2016, 11:49:43 AM
And 80 is rapidly joining my Top Ten.

80 has the potential to rapidly join your top three, or two. It did to me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on July 11, 2016, 10:56:05 PM

Quote from: Pat B on July 11, 2016, 02:05:46 PM
AFAIK the earliest col legno is in Biber's Battalia from 1673. But it has always been an unusual effect.

The Battaglia score supposedly has precise instructions how to use a bit of paper to achieve a drum-like effect with plucked bass.
I always found the col legno passage in the finale of Chopin's f minor concerto fairly surprising, especially because the general point that Chopin's instrumentation is usually unremarkable is true for most of these concertos.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 12, 2016, 05:56:23 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 12, 2016, 04:06:49 AM
"Papa"
Symphony № 83 in g minor, « La poule » H.I/83
NY Phil
Lenny

No knowing if this has been carelessness on my part, or if it is something particular in Lenny's interpretation; but today more than [if] ever before, my ear is impressed with certain broad similarities between the Allegro spiritoso first movement of « La poule » (composed in 1785 and published by Artaria in Vienna in December 1787, per Wikipedia) and the Allegro assai Finale of the K.550 (composed very famously in 1788). Mind you, I do not think that this "takes anything away from" the younger Master.

There are a couple of places in the first movement when the different sections are not quite together, but recovery is quick. (The recording is from April 1962.)

The Andante is of course exquisite.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on July 12, 2016, 06:21:47 AM

So, you really think Bernstein was a good interpreter of Haydn?
I like him for modern American composers, and a bit of Mahler.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 12, 2016, 06:30:38 AM

Quote from: Scion7 on July 12, 2016, 06:21:47 AM
So, you really think Bernstein was a good interpreter of Haydn?

I don't say he's necessarily my first choice. But for "big band" Haydn, I enjoy Lenny very well: he is musical, he keeps the orchestra quite agile, and I find it good listening. I admire the breadth of his musical interests as a conductor. I should not claim that he does it all equally well; but he does a great deal to excellence, and this Haydn I do find never less than very good.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 12, 2016, 06:43:41 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 12, 2016, 06:34:48 AM
"Papa"
Symphony № 103 in E^b, « Drum-Roll » H.I/103
NY Phil
Lenny
Recorded in February 1970

Well, the Menuetto is arguably on the Ländler-ish side, and won't be everybody's money. But: he makes it work.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on July 12, 2016, 06:45:29 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 12, 2016, 06:43:41 AM
Well, the Menuetto is arguably on the Ländler-ish side, and won't be everybody's money. But: he makes it work.

Yeah - I think slow minuets are the only potentially controversial "quirk" in Lenny's Haydn. He may not be at the Szell/Cleveland level, for this particular era, but I really do enjoy all of his Haydn, which is bold and jovial and moves with confidence.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on July 12, 2016, 06:48:08 AM

Bernstein's Paris set is very good unless one insists on a lean HIP or proto-HIP style. It has some faults (like being string dominated) but it's very dramatic and expressive. The 83 g minor and the slow movement of the 86 are among my favorites, the 85 is probably not lithe and elegant enough but overall it seems obvious that Lenny cared about the music. They are individual and energetic, if for today's ears sometimes unconventional readings. (I do not know his London set well enough to comment.)

It's been a while but I have over the years listened to about 10 complete and partial recordings of the Paris symphonies and if I could keep three, they would probably be Bernstein's (the only "big band"), Harnoncourt's (the most colorful and original but sometimes also irritating) and Marriner's. Marriner is very elegant, fleet and supreme in the "lighter" ones (84, 85, 87).

But admittedly I have not heard other "big band" contenders, namely Ansermet, Dutoit and Karajan (I think they are the only "important" sets of this music I have not heard). In my experience, Bernstein is most frequently recommended among those. I have heard Dorati and Fischer and Bernstein is clearly superior. The others were all HIP or chamber, in addition to the one's mentioned: Brüggen, Kuijken, Weil, Wolff, Fey and Goodman (82-84).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on July 12, 2016, 06:25:30 PM

Quote from: Scion7 on July 12, 2016, 06:21:47 AM
So, you really think Bernstein was a good interpreter of Haydn?

Hell, yes. Get the box!

[asin]B001TKK39S[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 12, 2016, 07:48:21 PM

Hey, Gurn,

Perhaps you can help me. During your years of wonderful research on Haydn, what have you come across regarding the use of harpsichord/pianoforte in his symphonies? Mostly, how was the keyboard normally utilized in the performances of his works, in his era?

I thought of this a few months ago when I listened to three different recordings in a row of the same symphony. Just curious if you touched upon this area yet.
Thanks in advance, Gurn!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 13, 2016, 03:31:03 AM

(* stands by for THE REVEAL *)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 13, 2016, 09:37:37 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on July 12, 2016, 07:48:21 PM
Hey, Gurn,

Perhaps you can help me. During your years of wonderful research on Haydn, what have you come across regarding the use of harpsichord/pianoforte in his symphonies? Mostly, how was the keyboard normally utilized in the performances of his works, in his era?

I thought of this a few months ago when I listened to three different recordings in a row of the same symphony. Just curious if you touched upon this area yet.
Thanks in advance, Gurn!

Hey, Greg,

I'm off at a convention right now, when I get in tonight I'll take a stab at it. There is no one definitive answer, it varies over time, but it's an interesting story. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on July 13, 2016, 09:53:41 AM

I seem to recall that there is a scholarly dispute whether a harpsichord played in the Eszterhazy orchestra. Webster? who wrote the notes for the Hogwood series is adamant that there should be no keyboard in the early symphonies because there was no harpsichordist on the payroll and apparently Haydn led from the violin. (A bit of evidence is that the "Farewell" closes with two violins, presumably played by Haydn and Tomasini.)
But Zaslaw and others strongly disagree as far as I remember. Roy Goodman seems to disagree as well as the keyboard can be quite prominent in his recordings whereas it usually is fairly discrete if used at all (e.g. by Pinnock in his Sturm&Drang set).

There seems evidence that Haydn led from a keyboard in London and the little solo in the finale of #98 is another bit of evidence for that.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on July 14, 2016, 05:22:24 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on July 13, 2016, 03:31:03 AM
(* stands by for THE REVEAL *)

With an introduction something along the lines of: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZAxKPPbiGQ

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 14, 2016, 11:25:22 AM

Of tangential interest here:

Quote from: karlhenning on July 14, 2016, 11:21:31 AM
My one Amazon Prime Day indulgence:

[asin]B0002F6AH0[/asin]

Quote from: WikipediaThe series has 26 episodes. Producer Jeremy Isaacs asked Noble Frankland, then director of the Imperial War Museum, to list fifteen main campaigns of the war and devoted one episode to each. The remaining eleven episodes are devoted to other matters, such as the rise of the Third Reich, home life in Britain and Germany, the experience of occupation in the Netherlands, and the Nazis' use of genocide. Episode 1 begins with a cold open describing the massacre at the French village of Oradour-sur-Glane by the Waffen SS. The same event is referenced again at the end of Episode 26, while the Dona nobis pacem (Latin for "Grant us peace") from the Missa Sancti Nicolai, composed by Joseph Haydn, can be heard. The series ends with Laurence Olivier uttering the poignant word, "Remember".

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 14, 2016, 02:46:19 PM

Well, at least Haydn must have missed me while I was gone... :-\ Wasn't really summer vacation though, I was busily writing a Haydn essay for the Haydn Journal, out in the Fall. Sure missed blogging though, the grammar police are so much easier on me! :D

Well, we are now into 1793, a year spent, not in London, but back home in Greater Vienna, tutoring that odd young man from Bonn and getting ready for next year. Have a look at some highlights of the year, if you'd like. :)

Plans? That would be nice... (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2016/08/1793-the-year-part-1-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 15, 2016, 08:08:36 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 14, 2016, 02:46:19 PM
Well, at least Haydn must have missed me while I was gone... :-\

You were gone? I hadn't notice ;)

Seriously, I missed your blog updates. Was wondering about the next installment. And here it is! As good a read as ever. Thank you. Do you have any details about Beethoven's relationship with Haydn? Like, how did they get on? Friendly, or was there friction?

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 15, 2016, 10:10:38 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 15, 2016, 08:08:36 AM
You were gone? I hadn't notice ;)

Seriously, I missed your blog updates. Was wondering about the next installment. And here it is! As good a read as ever. Thank you. Do you have any details about Beethoven's relationship with Haydn? Like, how did they get on? Friendly, or was there friction?

Sarge

Thanks, Sarge. :)

I will be doing an essay about that soon. Early times, like now, they got on quite well. You probably know about Haydn writing to Maximilian Franz saying how good Beethoven was doing and he should get a raise due to cost of living and all, and MF wrote back saying "well all the music you showed me, he wrote here before he left Bonn. Maybe he needs to come home...". After that, I think they were a bit less chummy, but Beethoven was Beethoven, even then, and the friction which developed later was nearly all to do with his ego. Haydn always liked and admired him, and I suppose that underneath it all, Beethoven did the same. Lots of stuff in that story! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 15, 2016, 11:09:30 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 15, 2016, 10:10:38 AM
I will be doing an essay about that soon.

Looking forward to it 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on August 16, 2016, 01:18:18 PM

Rather enjoyed the beginning of my exploration of this box. I doubt I've heard much more than a dozen of the symphonies before. I listened to 1-5, 9-11, A and B today (skipped the splendid but familiar trio). I'm sure it will take years, or decades, before I know all of this music properly. :)

[asin]B01BHFPU3S[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on August 16, 2016, 01:43:15 PM

Quote from: North Star on August 16, 2016, 01:18:18 PM
Rather enjoyed the beginning of my exploration of this box. I doubt I've heard much more than a dozen of the symphonies before. I listened to 1-5, 9-11, A and B today (skipped the splendid but familiar trio). I'm sure it will take years, or decades, before I know all of this music properly. :)

[asin]B01BHFPU3S[/asin]

LOVE that box!

As one of our former members used to say - you chose wisely.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 26, 2016, 06:10:34 PM

Maybe you guys can answer one for me this time!!

According to legend, Beethoven once said 'I never learned anything from Haydn'. I'm sure you have all heard that, but here is the question: who did he actually say this to? Who wrote it down that he said it to them? I have looked in 2 dozen Beethoven bios so far, and they all say "Beethoven said later... blah blah blah...", but I have yet to find a citation where "he said to X that ' ....' ".

I'm curious if he ever actually said it at all, or if it was just something Beethoven biographers made up as part of the Great Romantic Beethoven Story.

Input appreciated.

Gurn 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on August 26, 2016, 06:16:46 PM

Invoking the spirits of Google and Wikipedia led me to this
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beethoven_and_his_contemporaries

QuoteThere is evidence that Haydn assigned his student composition exercises based on the Fux text Gradus ad Parnassum. During the course of the year, however, the relationship between the two men soured. According to contemporary accounts, the issue surfaced most notably upon the publication of Beethoven's first compositions, the Op. 1 piano trios. Wishing to assist the young composer, Haydn suggested that Beethoven include the phrase "pupil of Haydn" underneath his name in order to garner advantage from Haydn's considerable fame. There is generally strong evidence of Haydn's goodwill toward Beethoven, including an interest in taking his pupil with him on his second London voyage, and the personal missives Haydn sent to Beethoven's early patron, Maximilian Francis of Austria, Elector of Cologne.

Beethoven, however, seems to have harbored ill-will toward Haydn during various points of his life. At the suggestion that he include the phrase "pupil of Haydn", Beethoven bristled. According to the account left by Ferdinand Ries, "Beethoven was unwilling to, because, as he said, although he had some instruction from Haydn, he had never learned anything from him." The bad feelings produced by the Op. 1 Trios were compounded upon their first performance. Haydn, present in the audience, is reported to have recommended against the publication of the C minor Trio (Op. 1, No. 3) since he suspected the music would not gain public acceptance. Beethoven considered the C minor the best of the trios and interpreted Haydn's advice as an indication of his envy.

Probably about as specific as you can expect for this.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 26, 2016, 06:19:16 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on August 26, 2016, 06:16:46 PM
Invoking the spirits of Google and Wikipedia led me to this
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beethoven_and_his_contemporaries
Probably about as specific as you can expect for this.

Ah, very good!

I should have suspected Ries.
I should have expected Wiki!

Thanks, Jeffrey: that'll teach me to look in stinking books! ;D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on August 27, 2016, 12:34:43 AM

Beethoven was very headstrong and arrogant (Haydn called him "Grossmogul" a German expression for the Mughal Emperor of India) and Haydn had better things to do than correct counterpoint exercises, so this kind of teaching was not very successful. I guess that this is what Beethoven meant when he said that he had "never learned anything from Haydn". It is obvious (and I pretty sure Beethoven would have conceded this) that Beethoven studied and learned quite a bit from Haydns actual composition. But the direct teaching relationship failed for several reasons and did not last long.

BTW the wikipedia section is somewhat lopsided about Beethoven and Goethe as it seems to miss the most famous episode about their encounter at the Teplitz Spa

https://www.awesomestories.com/asset/view/Beethoven-in-Teplitz-Absolutely-Uncontrolled-Personality-

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 28, 2016, 12:54:50 PM

So while I was looking at the Ries thing, I went ahead and did some further reading too. There are so many things going on there; the more you read, the less you seem sure about. :-\

But in the end I endeavored to persevere, and here is what I found. I hope you enjoy it too. :)

A Mogul in the Making? (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2016/08/1793-the-year-part-2-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 28, 2016, 02:42:20 PM

I just wanted to point out this excellent disk by the Handel+Haydn Society, conducted by Harry Christophers:

[asin]B019648MV4[/asin]

I have rarely felt myself more comfortable with other disks conducted by Christophers, a conductor usually focused on Renaissance and Baroque repertoire.

Apparently, a Baroque training isn't a bad thing to perform Haydn. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 28, 2016, 02:49:51 PM

Quote from: Gordo on August 28, 2016, 02:42:20 PM
I just wanted to point out this excellent disk by the Handel+Haydn Society, conducted by Harry Christophers:

[asin]B019648MV4[/asin]

I have rarely felt myself more comfortable with other disks conducted by Christophers, a conductor usually focused on Renaissance and Baroque repertoire.

Apparently, a Baroque training isn't a bad thing to perform Haydn. :)

Quite amazing: I listened to it just this afternoon, along with its companion. Apparently they are going to be at least part of a 3 disk set. I'm very pleased with them. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 28, 2016, 03:05:30 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 28, 2016, 02:49:51 PM
Quite amazing: I listened to it just this afternoon, along with its companion. Apparently they are going to be at least part of a 3 disk set. I'm very pleased with them. :)

8)

Excellent! I greatly enjoyed the works chosen, but as a programatic recording of 3 disks has a lot more sense.

I'm a great fan of this American band from its recording of the concerti grossi, op. 6, by Handel (conducted by Mr. Hogwood).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 28, 2016, 03:47:43 PM

Quote from: Gordo on August 28, 2016, 03:05:30 PM
Excellent! I greatly enjoyed the works chosen, but as a programatic recording of 3 disks has a lot more sense.

I'm a great fan of this American band from its recording of the concerti grossi, op. 6, by Handel (conducted by Mr. Hogwood).

Yes, I'm quite looking forward to Symphony #8, my favorite of the set. I imagine it will have La Reine, those being the 3 Paris symphonies with names, and the other VC in A. No telling where they go after that, if indeed they do carry it further. Hope they do, I quite like the results. Aisslinn Nosky is a hot fiddle, too! :)

Did you get a gmail from me last week?

Cheers,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on August 28, 2016, 07:22:17 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 26, 2016, 06:19:16 PM
Ah, very good!

I should have suspected Ries.
I should have expected Wiki!

Thanks, Jeffrey: that'll teach me to look in stinking books! ;D

8)

Wikipedia is only as good as its references, and that entire section has no references.

My books are currently in boxes, but the Robbins-Landon book on Beethoven does (IIRC) mention this statement. But the implication was that Beethoven was not -- or at least did not perceive himself to be -- a priority for Haydn, i.e. "Haydn did not teach me anything" but not "Haydn could not teach me anything." Haydn did leave for London, and Beethoven was appreciative of Albrechtsberger. (/IIRC)

None of which means that Haydn "did Beethoven wrong," or even that Beethoven ever felt that Haydn had done him wrong. It just means that Haydn was very busy at that time.

And if Beethoven said it to Ries during the op. 1 disagreement, as implied on that wikipedia page, then we must be extra-cautious about making grand conclusions. For one, Ries may not have gotten it quite right. More importantly, it may have been said in a short-lived huff that did not represent Beethoven's long-term opinion.

That quote and the dispute over op. 1 paint a dramatic picture of tension between these two giants. But with other evidence suggesting a cordial relationship, my sense is that those two situations have been blown out of proportion, that reality may not have been so juicy.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on August 28, 2016, 10:25:58 PM

Anyone heard the Chiaroscuro Quartet's Op 20? Unless someone tells me it makes some astonishing contribution, I'll wait till it turns up on spotify.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 29, 2016, 04:49:17 AM

Quote from: Pat B on August 28, 2016, 07:22:17 PM
Wikipedia is only as good as its references, and that entire section has no references.

My books are currently in boxes, but the Robbins-Landon book on Beethoven does (IIRC) mention this statement. But the implication was that Beethoven was not -- or at least did not perceive himself to be -- a priority for Haydn, i.e. "Haydn did not teach me anything" but not "Haydn could not teach me anything." Haydn did leave for London, and Beethoven was appreciative of Albrechtsberger. (/IIRC)

None of which means that Haydn "did Beethoven wrong," or even that Beethoven ever felt that Haydn had done him wrong. It just means that Haydn was very busy at that time.

And if Beethoven said it to Ries during the op. 1 disagreement, as implied on that wikipedia page, then we must be extra-cautious about making grand conclusions. For one, Ries may not have gotten it quite right. More importantly, it may have been said in a short-lived huff that did not represent Beethoven's long-term opinion.

That quote and the dispute over op. 1 paint a dramatic picture of tension between these two giants. But with other evidence suggesting a cordial relationship, my sense is that those two situations have been blown out of proportion, that reality may not have been so juicy.

Actually, that's rather where I was going with all that. The reality of Beethoven giving Haydn old works when he posted the Elector is certainly not imaginary, although whatever his motivations for it may have been are open to supposition.

I'm not surprised that Wiki doesn't give references for that statement. I have it in a dozen places and none of them do. And one place says that he said it 'several times in later life'. But not to whom. I don't doubt he would have said it in a fit of pique, people do. I doubt highly that it was a great factor of his life. Funny how all biographers have to mention it though. It gives it undue importance.

When you ever get your books unboxed, look in one of the later volumes of Landon, I can't remember now if it was 4 or 5, and he treats the topic of Haydn and Beethoven rather extensively. Interesting reading.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 29, 2016, 04:50:20 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on August 28, 2016, 10:25:58 PM
Anyone heard the Chiaroscuro Quartet's Op 20? Unless someone tells me it makes some astonishing contribution, I'll wait till it turns up on spotify.

No, I haven't heard it yet. Last I checked it wasn't yet available in US, and I felt I could wait. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: bhodges on August 29, 2016, 07:32:55 PM

Tonight is the first night of the Banff International String Quartet Competition, with ten groups vying for the top prize, to be awarded on Sunday. Each of them is doing Haydn and Bartók, and just now I laughed as the Verona Quartet faked everyone out in the final measures of Haydn's Op. 50, No. 1, prompting bravos and applause.

Tonight's groups: Argus, Aeolus, Tesla, and Verona -- the other six play tomorrow. All the concerts are being live-streamed, and if tonight is any indication, I'm going to be busy tomorrow. (It does appear that Banff archives all the performances, so you could probably catch them "not-live" later.)

https://www.banffcentre.ca/bisqc-watch-and-listen

--Bruce

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 30, 2016, 04:51:11 AM

Quote from: Brewski on August 29, 2016, 07:32:55 PM
Tonight is the first night of the Banff International String Quartet Competition, with ten groups vying for the top prize, to be awarded on Sunday. Each of them is doing Haydn and Bartók, and just now I laughed as the Verona Quartet faked everyone out in the final measures of Haydn's Op. 50, No. 1, prompting bravos and applause.

Tonight's groups: Argus, Aeolus, Tesla, and Verona -- the other six play tomorrow. All the concerts are being live-streamed, and if tonight is any indication, I'm going to be busy tomorrow. (It does appear that Banff archives all the performances, so you could probably catch them "not-live" later.)

https://www.banffcentre.ca/bisqc-watch-and-listen

--Bruce

Excellent, Bruce, thanks for the heads-up. Op 50 #1 = my favorite! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 30, 2016, 05:08:47 AM

"Papa" can still surprise 'em!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: bhodges on August 30, 2016, 05:26:01 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 30, 2016, 04:51:11 AM
Excellent, Bruce, thanks for the heads-up. Op 50 #1 = my favorite! :)

8)

I can see why! 8)

Here's the rest of the Haydn/20th-century schedule today. Tomorrow they go to the "Romantic" round (e.g., Sibelius, Dvorak), a break on Thursday, and then on Friday all ten do the same piece (a commission by Zosha Di Castri). Saturday is the "ad lib" round, when each group does a 30-minute set of whatever they want, and on Sunday afternoon, the three finalists do Beethoven or Schubert.

10:30am
Rolston String Quartet
Franz Joseph Haydn: String Quartet, Op. 77, No. 1
Leoš Janáček: String Quartet No. 2, "Intimate Letters"

INTERMISSION

Castalian String Quartet
Franz Joseph Haydn: String Quartet, Op. 76, No. 1
Béla Bartók: String Quartet No. 6, Sz. 114

2:30pm
Quartet Arpa
Franz Joseph Haydn: String Quartet, Op. 33, No. 2
Béla Bartók: String Quartet No. 5, Sz. 102

INTERMISSION

Omer Quartet
Franz Joseph Haydn: String Quartet, Op. 76, No. 5
Leoš Janáček: String Quartet No. 1, "Kreutzer Sonata"

7:30pm
Ulysses Quartet
Franz Joseph Haydn: String Quartet, Op. 76, No. 5
Béla Bartók: String Quartet No. 4, Sz. 91

INTERMISSION

Quartet Berlin-Tokyo
Franz Joseph Haydn: String Quartet, Op. 33, No. 4
Béla Bartók: String Quartet No. 5, Sz. 102

Quartet overload!

--Bruce

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 30, 2016, 06:35:25 AM

Whew, quite a lineup! I could easily spend a day getting overloaded. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on August 31, 2016, 04:58:16 AM

Adios, everybody! Setting off on a road trip with these Haydn symphonies from the Bruggen/Hogwood/Dantone box:

38, 45, 52, 61*, 65, 66, 69, 71*, 73-77*, 82-87, 93, 102, 103

*61, 71, 74, and 76 are the LAST FOUR Haydn symphonies I've not yet heard!!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 31, 2016, 05:13:22 AM

Quote from: Brian on August 31, 2016, 04:58:16 AM
Adios, everybody! Setting off on a road trip with these Haydn symphonies from the Bruggen/Hogwood/Dantone box:

38, 45, 52, 61*, 65, 66, 69, 71*, 73-77*, 82-87, 93, 102, 103

*61, 71, 74, and 76 are the LAST FOUR Haydn symphonies I've not yet heard!!!

Excellent, Brian, have a great trip. I am off to New England tomorrow myself, and fortunately I have the entire set on my player. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on August 31, 2016, 05:19:50 AM

Quote from: orfeo on June 28, 2016, 07:42:56 PM
This is most peculiar. Suddenly I own Haydn compositions that were written before the 1780s.

[asin]B002IVRBBU[/asin]

I decided I might as well explore these chronologically. So right now I'm experiencing Haydn circa 1749. Egads. That Mozart kid hasn't even born yet.

As I've been sometimes mentioning in the general listening thread, I've made it up to the 1782 "Mariazellermesse". So I'm essentially halfway through the box.

It's been pretty great so far, and I haven't reached the "great" Masses so I'm pretty excited about what those might offer. What's really struck me in the first half of the box, though, is how different some of these works are from each other! The size of them, both in terms of length and I suspect in terms of the instrumental/vocal forces, is massively different. The notes are helpful in pointing out what's known about the context for which each work was composed.

I don't know very many Masses, and I don't think I've ever known more than 1 from a given composer before, so this has been very educational. And pretty enjoyable.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 31, 2016, 05:28:37 AM

Quote from: Brian on August 31, 2016, 04:58:16 AM
Adios, everybody! Setting off on a road trip with these Haydn symphonies from the Bruggen/Hogwood/Dantone box:

38, 45, 52, 61*, 65, 66, 69, 71*, 73-77*, 82-87, 93, 102, 103

*61, 71, 74, and 76 are the LAST FOUR Haydn symphonies I've not yet heard!!!

What a great mix tape!!
Have a safe trip, Brian.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 31, 2016, 05:31:39 AM

Travels With "Papa" in Search of America

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 31, 2016, 05:46:22 AM

Quote from: orfeo on August 31, 2016, 05:19:50 AM
As I've been sometimes mentioning in the general listening thread, I've made it up to the 1782 "Mariazellermesse". So I'm essentially halfway through the box.

It's been pretty great so far, and I haven't reached the "great" Masses so I'm pretty excited about what those might offer. What's really struck me in the first half of the box, though, is how different some of these works are from each other! The size of them, both in terms of length and I suspect in terms of the instrumental/vocal forces, is massively different. The notes are helpful in pointing out what's known about the context for which each work was composed.

I don't know very many Masses, and I don't think I've ever known more than 1 from a given composer before, so this has been very educational. And pretty enjoyable.

All you ever hear about are his Last 6 Masses, but the first ones are excellent, IMO, and I have heard a ton of Viennese masses! He wrote them all for such different venues, only one (the Nicolaimesse) for his own little church in Eisenstadt. So they do, indeed, span the range of stylistic possibilities. I like both of the Mariazeller masses, they are a range all their own. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 31, 2016, 05:47:43 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on August 31, 2016, 05:31:39 AM
Travels With "Papa" in Search of America

I don't know, pretty Steinbeckian... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 08, 2016, 03:14:20 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on September 07, 2016, 11:14:54 AM
Yesterday my local NPR played the Variations in F minor, Hob.XVII:6 (https://musicakaleidoscope.wordpress.com/2016/09/07/haydn-sonata-un-piccolo-divertimento/), the Emanuel Ax recording. It struck me that I had hardly spent any time with this wonderful work, so I spent most of today listening to various recordings. The one recording I couldn't find on a streaming service or Youtube was the one on a period instrument by Paul Badura-Skoda.

(https://musicakaleidoscope.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/arcanaa352.jpg?w=300&h=300)

So, I ordered a copy from Amazon, for less than $5.00.

All's well that ends well.

;)

Small world it is: now I am back home, my next essay is about that exact piece of music. What a lovely thing it is! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 08, 2016, 03:50:52 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on September 08, 2016, 03:35:11 PM
Are you of the opinion he wrote it in 1793 or do you go for the alternate date of 1790? There is a quote somewhere to the effect that Haydn was excited to play the work on one of the new Broadwood pianos in England. I saw it and then couldn't find it again when I wanted to use it.

It is an exceptional work.

;)

He was eager to play it on a new Broadwood, something he wouldn't have known about before his first trip. He wrote on the score that it was written for England, and shared it with several pianists there. IIRC, he wrote it for the same person (Ployer) that Mozart wrote music for (e.g. - K 449 concerto), he very probably had an "exclusive use" clause which kept him from publishing it in Vienna for 2 years or something, but he showed it off in England on his second trip.

His real motivation for writing it was probably a mourning piece for Marianne Genzinger though. The theme actually was a mourning piece from his Orpheus and Euridyce opera. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on September 08, 2016, 11:53:53 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 08, 2016, 03:50:52 PM
His real motivation for writing it was probably a mourning piece for Marianne Genzinger though. The theme actually was a mourning piece from his Orpheus and Euridyce opera. :)

8)

Is mourning piece a common genre in classical style, or was he referring back to the baroque tombeau? What exactly is a mourning piece? If it really is like a tombeau, it's surprising he didn't include her name in the title, were there 18th century conventions against this?

Bart van Oort plays it like a Tombeau.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 09, 2016, 06:18:52 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on September 08, 2016, 11:53:53 PM
Is mourning piece a common genre in classical style, or was he referring back to the baroque tombeau? What exactly is a mourning piece? If it really is like a tombeau, it's surprising he didn't include her name in the title, were there 18th century conventions against this?

Bart van Oort plays it like a Tombeau.

No, there is no tradition in Austria that I have ever seen of any sort of non-sacred music being specifically dedicated as the French did with Tombeau's. Which is not to say that any composer might not wish to dedicate a certain piece to a dead friend. I don't want to get into too much detail here, but the theme which is varied in this piece is from a grief aria (in f minor, a traditional very sad key) which Orpheus sang while holding Eurydice's dead body.

QuoteI have lost the heart of my heart, my soul again.
Ah, what will become of me?
All I can see are terrifying spectres all around.
The realms of the blessed have vanished forever,
and in one brief moment
have been replaced by the abodes of eternal weeping.
I have the realms of darkness in my heart.

Considering this was written within a few weeks of her death, and they were very close friends, it is not much of a stretch to say it was a mourning piece, even for someone like me who doesn't believe in such things. I know that people do... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on September 09, 2016, 06:27:03 AM

If El Tupé wins, we shall all mourn America.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 09, 2016, 06:28:05 AM

Quote from: karlhenning on September 09, 2016, 06:27:03 AM
If El Tupé wins, we shall all mourn America.

You shall have to take Haydn's place and write a mourning song... :(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on September 09, 2016, 08:43:32 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 09, 2016, 06:18:52 AM
No, there is no tradition in Austria that I have ever seen of any sort of non-sacred music being specifically dedicated as the French did with Tombeau's. Which is not to say that any composer might not wish to dedicate a certain piece to a dead friend. I don't want to get into too much detail here, but the theme which is varied in this piece is from a grief aria (in f minor, a traditional very sad key) which Orpheus sang while holding Eurydice's dead body.

Considering this was written within a few weeks of her death, and they were very close friends, it is not much of a stretch to say it was a mourning piece, even for someone like me who doesn't believe in such things. I know that people do... :-\

8)

Thanks. It's a good example of how this type of scholarly research can have major implications for performance. Oort's way with the music works well for me, no doubt there are others who find a similar emotional content.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 09, 2016, 08:47:48 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on September 09, 2016, 08:43:32 AM
Thanks. It's a good example of how this type of scholarly research can have major implications for performance.

I think it is important for a performer to know that, even if he/she chooses to play it in a different mood, at least it can be a consideration. Context is everything in things like opera, but it doesn't hurt to know it for smaller forms either. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on September 09, 2016, 08:54:58 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 09, 2016, 08:47:48 AM
I think it is important for a performer to know that, even if he/she chooses to play it in a different mood, at least it can be a consideration. Context is everything in things like opera, but it doesn't hurt to know it for smaller forms either. :)

8)

Beghin plays the theme so melodramatically, theatrically, that you would think it was an opera! He then seems to lose the tombeau mood, maybe.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on September 09, 2016, 09:03:00 AM

I may be preaching to the choir but l am just in awe of how GOOD a composer Haydn was. Just the symphonies for example #82 - 104 every single one of them is a masterpiece, there is not a weak sister in ANY of them - 23 consecutive great symphonies or such variety and mood using basically the same form. I don't know how he did it. This is taking nothing away from his other symphonies.

Listening to his string quartets again not a weak one in the bunch. Just an amazing composer.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 09, 2016, 12:17:34 PM

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on September 09, 2016, 09:03:00 AM
I may be preaching to the choir but l am just in awe of how GOOD a composer Haydn was. Just the symphonies for example #82 - 104 every single one of them is a masterpiece, there is not a weak sister in ANY of them - 23 consecutive great symphonies or such variety and mood using basically the same form. I don't know how he did it. This is taking nothing away from his other symphonies.

Listening to his string quartets again not a weak one in the bunch. Just an amazing composer.

That's just the thing with Haydn: you can listen to his entire oeuvre and not find a weak piece, not one which is intrinsically weak, that is. And it isn't because he burned his rejects, in fact, some of his best works could well have been burned in the series of fires (at least 3) which plagued him.

If one were to speak out on this, it would be controversial in and of itself: 1> he believed he had a god-given talent which required him to do his best every time and 2> he was raised in a time where the sole purpose of music was to entertain and provide pleasure for listeners (and players). No big challenges to understand what he was "trying to say", just 20-40 minutes of wonderful listening pleasure.

One of the marks of his quality is that he didn't have much juvenilia, by 1754 he had mastered the elements of structure. And he always had great ideas, even before then when he struggled to put them together. So if you go back to 1757-58 and his first quartets and symphonies, then relative to other music of the time, he was already a master even at the beginning like that. There is a fallacy about composers that their proficiency is like a tree which keeps growing ever upward. This may be true when you are talking about developing a form or a style, but, at least in Haydn's case, it isn't true vis-à-vis quality. Simple or grand, every work he wrote was full of good ideas and always the best he could make it. To me, this is what separates him from the herd.

It would have been prudent for him to struggle more, or else to be less discreet about his girlfriends. He would have become a cult idol! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 09, 2016, 12:22:42 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on September 09, 2016, 10:13:16 AM
I am not a fan of Beghin's version of this piece.

I have at least 15 versions on period instruments and a couple on modern ones. I am hard-pressed to pick out my favorite(s). Badura-Skoda for one. Bobby Mitchell, Carole Cerasi, Gary Cooper... there really are some fine ones out there... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 09, 2016, 01:01:41 PM

Quote from: sanantonio on September 09, 2016, 12:48:45 PM
I ordered the Badura-Skoda, feeling fairly confident that his would be good, so thanks for confirming that - but I will also try to hunt down the other two. I've got others as well, Brautigam, Schornsheim, but this work flew under my radar in those complete boxes.

:)

I strongly recommend the Bobby Mitchell to you. It is his debut album, he plays it like an actual recital of the time, with an improvised chromatic bridge from one work to the next, which is exactly what players used to do in those days. Plus, his instrument sounds great, and he plays superbly. Finally, I like the spaniel on the cover. What can I say? I would be majorly surprised if you didn't greatly enjoy that disk. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on September 09, 2016, 03:41:00 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 09, 2016, 12:17:34 PM

One of the marks of his quality is that he didn't have much juvenilia, by 1754 he had mastered the elements of structure.

8)

Yes you nailed it. With Haydn you throw terms like "early", "middle", and "late" out the window as his quality is remarkably consistent. The only other composer I can think of like that is Bach. Another composer I compare him to is Dvorak, both wrote in every genre and excelled in every one of them.

Every few years I come back to listen to Haydn's music and every time I discover something new.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 09, 2016, 05:30:25 PM

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on September 09, 2016, 03:41:00 PM
Yes you nailed it. With Haydn you throw terms like "early", "middle", and "late" out the window as his quality is remarkably consistent. The only other composer I can think of like that is Bach. Another composer I compare him to is Dvorak, both wrote in every genre and excelled in every one of them.

Every few years I come back to listen to Haydn's music and every time I discover something new.

:) Maybe that's why I'm such a Dvorak fan! He is analogous to a modern-day Haydn. :) The one big trend I see in Dvorak is towards concision, and Haydn didn't need that, he was already terse by nature. If you slide up to 1761, his first year with the Esterházy's, his 6 scherzandi are absolutely perfect 4 movement miniature (10 mins. each) symphonies. It wasn't until Beethoven began writing bagatelles for keyboard that another composer even approached this idea or the execution of it. Dvorak got the idea after a while, and his works became progressively shorter but richer right to the end. The fact hat he had Haydn's talent for writing original tunes that sounded like folk music is just a bonus. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on September 10, 2016, 11:37:42 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 09, 2016, 12:17:34 PM
he was raised in a time where the sole purpose of music was to entertain and provide pleasure for listeners (and players). No big challenges to understand what he was "trying to say", just 20-40 minutes of wonderful listening pleasure.

Yes and no. There are many instances of Haydn's music being more than meets the ear.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 10, 2016, 12:06:11 PM

Quote from: Florestan on September 10, 2016, 11:37:42 AM
Yes and no. There are many instances of Haydn's music being more than meets the ear.

Not in the Romantic sense though. Yes, there are all sorts of musical jokes, more than you can imagine, but if you don't "get them", it doesn't interfere with your enjoyment of the music. Whereas if you 'don't get' the story of a symphonic poem, for example, or that certain motifs are meant to convey some particular tone painting, then you have missed the entire reason for the piece's existence.

What the hell is wrong with being entertaining for its own sake? >:( Why is it such a difficult concept to deal with? As Freud said, "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar". Smoke it without fear! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on September 10, 2016, 12:13:30 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 10, 2016, 12:06:11 PM
Not in the Romantic sense though.

Just what is this "Romantic sense", pray tell?

Quoteif you 'don't get' the story of a symphonic poem, for example, or that certain motifs are meant to convey some particular tone painting, then you have missed the entire reason for the piece's existence.

If you were a cultured man in 1850s you would "get" the story and the motifs alright --- just as if you were Eszterhazy or something similarly cultured in the 1780s you would "get" whatever Haydn wanted you to get.

Quote
What the hell is wrong with being entertaining for its own sake?

AFAIC, absolutely nothing.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 10, 2016, 12:33:38 PM

Quote from: Florestan on September 10, 2016, 12:13:30 PM
Just what is this "Romantic sense", pray tell?

See below. So much of the music tells a story. in 18th century, the story is told by singers, not instrumentalists. It's an entirely different POV.

QuoteIf you were a cultured man in 1850s you would "get" the story and the motifs alright --- just as if you were Eszterhazy or something similarly cultured in the 1780s you would "get" whatever Haydn wanted you to get.

I should hope that were true. There is a much larger pool of listeners to draw from in the 19th century, the elite aren't better educated, but the hoi polloi probably are. Given that the lower classes weren't educated at all in the 18th. So Haydn is talking to a lot fewer people than Wagner did, for example. Did everyone 'get' Wagner?

QuoteAFAIC, absolutely nothing.

Yet it seems to bother you. I seem to recall you writing that if Haydn wasn't genuinely emotional when he portrayed musical emotion then you didn't want to listen to him any more, or something to that effect. My answer to that is that he may have wanted to make YOU feel something, but it doesn't mean he (or Mozart) felt it himself. In my opinion, this is a difference between 18th and 19th century music.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on September 11, 2016, 02:04:01 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 10, 2016, 12:33:38 PM
in 18th century, the story is told by singers, not instrumentalists.

Dittersdorf´s Symphonies after Ovid´s Metamorphoses?

Quote
I should hope that were true. There is a much larger pool of listeners to draw from in the 19th century, the elite aren't better educated, but the hoi polloi probably are. Given that the lower classes weren't educated at all in the 18th. So Haydn is talking to a lot fewer people than Wagner did, for example. Did everyone 'get' Wagner?

Depends on what you mean by "get". I´d say that educated people "got" the mythology behind his operas all right. Whether they "got" his aesthetics and philosophy (in the sense of agreeing with them) is a different matter.

Quote
Yet it seems to bother you.

No, it really doesn´t. I love music which is intended for pure enjoyment and pleasure and with no "philosophical" pretentions as much as you do.

Quote
I seem to recall you writing that if Haydn wasn't genuinely emotional when he portrayed musical emotion then you didn't want to listen to him any more, or something to that effect.

Ah well...You didn´t take that seriously, I hope. :D

Quote
My answer to that is that he may have wanted to make YOU feel something, but it doesn't mean he (or Mozart) felt it himself.

At the time of the composition they probably didn´t but it doesn´t mean they never felt it themselves. Even with wild Romantics such as Berlioz or Schumann or Liszt there is a gap, sometimes a very long one, between the moment of experiencing an emotional or psychological state and the moment of actually composing a work which reflects it. I think the same applies to Haydn or Mozart. After all, you said it yourself that Haydn´s Variations in F minor reflects his feelings over Marianne Grienzinger´s death, and then there´s the famous violin sonata Mozart wrote as a lament for his mother´s death.

And it has right now occurred to me that, given most of the time Haydn wants the listener to have fun and even a good laugh, I doubt that he didn´t have fun or did not laugh himself while composing this or that work. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on September 12, 2016, 05:47:20 PM

I also credit Haydn for greatly expanding the RONDO form into something really expressive and rich. Just listen to Sym #88's finale where such economy of material can develope into a RONDO of such fecundity.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 12, 2016, 07:11:28 PM

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on September 12, 2016, 05:47:20 PM
I also credit Haydn for greatly expanding the RONDO form into something really expressive and rich. Just listen to Sym #88's finale where such economy of material can develope into a RONDO of such fecundity.

I love that finale (the whole symphony, really). Haydn and Mozart were both greatly taken with the rondo form and had different approaches to it, leaving behind a great legacy to both listeners and future composers. It's a long way from the French rondeaux of the earlier 18th century and the Classic Viennese rondo of the '80's and '90's! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on September 13, 2016, 12:54:16 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 10, 2016, 12:33:38 PM
See below. So much of the music tells a story. in 18th century, the story is told by singers, not instrumentalists. It's an entirely different POV.

I should hope that were true. There is a much larger pool of listeners to draw from in the 19th century, the elite aren't better educated, but the hoi polloi probably are. Given that the lower classes weren't educated at all in the 18th. So Haydn is talking to a lot fewer people than Wagner did, for example. Did everyone 'get' Wagner?

Yet it seems to bother you. I seem to recall you writing that if Haydn wasn't genuinely emotional when he portrayed musical emotion then you didn't want to listen to him any more, or something to that effect. My answer to that is that he may have wanted to make YOU feel something, but it doesn't mean he (or Mozart) felt it himself. In my opinion, this is a difference between 18th and 19th century music.

I always feel that there are emotions shared between Haydn and his listeners that are present in much of his music: a love of music and a joy in the creation of music and in hearing that creation. Music was important to Haydn, to his employer and to an audience that grew larger as time passed. Haydn's music is about that shared joy in music.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on September 13, 2016, 01:38:59 PM

I was reading some previous posts by my good friends Gurn and Florestan, when I recalled this old anecdote of Dustin Hoffman and Laurence Olivier during the movie "Marathon Man" (1976). A story circulated for a long time that Hoffman (being a "method actor") stayed up all night to play a character who has stayed up all night. Arriving on the set, Laurence Olivier asked Hoffman why he looked the way he did. Hoffman told him, to which Olivier replied in jest, "Why not try acting? It's much easier."

In some measure, this funny anecdote illustrates one of the biggest differences between Romanticism and Classicism. :D

:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 13, 2016, 02:19:54 PM

Quote from: Gordo on September 13, 2016, 01:38:59 PM
I was reading some previous posts by my good friends Gurn and Florestan, when I recalled this old anecdote of Dustin Hoffman and Laurence Olivier during the movie "Marathon Man" (1976). A story circulated for a long time that Hoffman (being a "method actor") stayed up all night to play a character who has stayed up all night. Arriving on the set, Laurence Olivier asked Hoffman why he looked the way he did. Hoffman told him, to which Olivier replied in jest, "Why not try acting? It's much easier."

In some measure, this funny anecdote illustrates one of the biggest differences between Romanticism and Classicism. :D

:)

:D That's funny, and it works for me. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on September 13, 2016, 03:13:12 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 12, 2016, 07:11:28 PM
I love that finale (the whole symphony, really). Haydn and Mozart were both greatly taken with the rondo form and had different approaches to it, leaving behind a great legacy to both listeners and future composers. It's a long way from the French rondeaux of the earlier 18th century and the Classic Viennese rondo of the '80's and '90's! :)

8)

Haydn's #88 and Mozart's #39 would likely be my picks for anyone who wants to know what a great Classical Era symphony sounds like...

I can't recall Mozart using the Rondo to end a mature symphony, the finales I remember are always in sonata form.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 13, 2016, 04:25:02 PM

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on September 13, 2016, 03:13:12 PM
Haydn's #88 and Mozart's #39 would likely be my picks for anyone who wants to know what a great Classical Era symphony sounds like...

I can't recall Mozart using the Rondo to end a mature symphony, the finales I remember are always in sonata form.

Yes, 39 is one of my very favorite Mozart symphonies, moreso than 41!

No, I wasn't limiting myself to symphonies, I was thinking about the many concertos beginning way back with the last 4 violin ones right up through the wind and keyboard ones. He was crazy about the form, I think. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on September 13, 2016, 04:57:42 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 13, 2016, 04:25:02 PM
Yes, 39 is one of my very favorite Mozart symphonies, moreso than 41!

No, I wasn't limiting myself to symphonies, I was thinking about the many concertos beginning way back with the last 4 violin ones right up through the wind and keyboard ones. He was crazy about the form, I think. :)

8)

Concerti is less serious than a symphony so Mozart ended many with the RONDO.

Anyway Mozart's 39th is really special in the way he uses a pair of clarinets to add a lot of color to the work, especially in the Menuette and Trio movement where it is magical. Mozart is great at getting the most colors out of an orchestra with minimal instrumentation.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 18, 2016, 12:44:26 PM

So I have been listening to and looking hard at this splendid Andante & Variations in f we have been talking about, and writing about it this week seemed particularly timely. Hope you find it interesting.

Inspiration comes from many places... (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2016/09/1793-the-music-part-1.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on September 19, 2016, 12:50:54 AM

Nice touch on Dussek on your smog. I mean, bog. Darn, I meant dog.
Jog! no
Cog! no
Fog! no

. . .

Log?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 19, 2016, 04:32:00 AM

Quote from: Scion7 on September 19, 2016, 12:50:54 AM
Nice touch on Dussek on your smog. I mean, bog. Darn, I meant dog.
Jog! no
Cog! no
Fog! no

. . .

Log?

Thanks, I'm a big Dussek pan. I mean van. Darn, I meant can.

Umm, fan. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on September 19, 2016, 04:35:02 AM

First day with the new singers, gents?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 19, 2016, 04:41:13 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on September 19, 2016, 04:35:02 AM
First day with the new singers, gents?

I was just working on warming up the brain. Lord knows what overcame Scion overnight... I think he was overwhelmed with my new essay. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on September 19, 2016, 12:35:07 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 19, 2016, 04:41:13 AM
.... Lord knows what overcame Scion overnight...

It's the word, "blog" - sounds like a creature from a sci-fi movie!

Run away, run for your lives - it's the Blawg!!!! :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 19, 2016, 12:54:59 PM

Quote from: Scion7 on September 19, 2016, 12:35:07 PM
It's the word, "blog" - sounds like a creature from a sci-fi movie!

Run away, run for your lives - it's the Blawg!!!! :P

Quite so. I remember the first time I heard it, I was like 'huh?', what the hell is that?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2016, 06:41:27 AM

For those of you who took the time to listen to my earlier podcast interview with Alan Missroon of 'Fugue for Thought', thank you for the interest you showed.

Alan wrote to me this morning saying he had posted Part 2 of that interview, so I have posted the link here for anyone who is still interested. I must say, Alan is one of the best interviewers around, and managed to make me sound, at least, a little bit interesting and not like the crackpot you all know I am. :)

Part 1 (https://fugueforthought.de/2016/05/29/podcast-haydn-seek-pt-1/)
Part 2 (https://fugueforthought.de/2016/10/02/podcast-haydn-seek-pt-2/)

Thanks,
Gurn 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on October 02, 2016, 09:55:52 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 02, 2016, 06:41:27 AM
For those of you who took the time to listen to my earlier podcast interview with Alan Missroon of 'Fugue for Thought', thank you for the interest you showed.

Alan wrote to me this morning saying he had posted Part 2 of that interview, so I have posted the link here for anyone who is still interested. I must say, Alan is one of the best interviewers around, and managed to make me sound, at least, a little bit interesting and not like the crackpot you all know I am. :)

Part 1 (https://fugueforthought.de/2016/05/29/podcast-haydn-seek-pt-1/)
Part 2 (https://fugueforthought.de/2016/10/02/podcast-haydn-seek-pt-2/)

Thanks,
Gurn 8)

That's great! :)

For those who haven't heard part 1: strongly recommended!

Q

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 04, 2016, 04:43:54 AM

Classical CD Of The Week: A Timeless Combination Of Ligeti And Haydn

(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2016/09/Forbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_ONYX_Shai-Wosner-Haydn_Ligeti_Piano-Concertos_Laurson_1200-1200x469.jpg?width=960) (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/09/28/classical-cd-of-the-week-a-timeless-combination-of-ligeti-and-haydn/#7cc6249d2180)
Joseph Haydn / György Ligeti, Concertos , Shai Wosner (piano), Danish National Symphony Orchestra, Nicholas Collon (conductor), Onyx (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B01D3LC2DU/nectarandambr-20)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 04, 2016, 07:11:36 AM

Reminds me of the CD I have with violin sonatas by Haydn and... Schnittke! I guess it is the contrast aspect they are going for; it is certainly there! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 04, 2016, 08:00:30 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 04, 2016, 07:11:36 AM
Reminds me of the CD I have with violin sonatas by Haydn and... Schnittke! I guess it is the contrast aspect they are going for; it is certainly there! :)

8)

Vertiginous, one may almost suggest 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 05, 2016, 06:33:36 PM

UNLESS you do this sort of thing, blogging, that is, on a regular basis, it is hard to imagine how hard it is to write certain essays. This time, I was wanting to look at some of my favorite quartets, and since they were late works, written for London, I fully expected to have to toss out extra material. Imagine my surprise when it took me 3 full weeks to find anything at all to put on paper!!! But in the end, virtue always wins out. :D Despite that, I got this one done, and I hope you enjoy it.

The London Quartets, born in fog! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2016/10/1793-the-music-part-2-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on October 05, 2016, 08:32:38 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 05, 2016, 06:33:36 PM
UNLESS you do this sort of thing, blogging, that is, on a regular basis, it is hard to imagine how hard it is to write certain essays. This time, I was wanting to look at some of my favorite quartets, and since they were late works, written for London, I fully expected to have to toss out extra material. Imagine my surprise when it took me 3 full weeks to find anything at all to put on paper!!! But in the end, virtue always wins out. :D Despite that, I got this one done, and I hope you enjoy it.

The London Quartets, born in fog! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2016/10/1793-the-music-part-2-.html)

An excellent addition to your blog. You thought about a lot of things and I will now be thinking about them too.

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 05, 2016, 10:40:31 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 05, 2016, 06:33:36 PM
UNLESS you do this sort of thing, blogging, that is, on a regular basis, it is hard to imagine how hard it is to write certain essays. This time, I was wanting to look at some of my favorite quartets, and since they were late works, written for London, I fully expected to have to toss out extra material. Imagine my surprise when it took me 3 full weeks to find anything at all to put on paper!!! But in the end, virtue always wins out. :D Despite that, I got this one done, and I hope you enjoy it.

Very informative, indeed! Thanks much, once again.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2016, 04:50:40 AM

Quote from: Old Listener on October 05, 2016, 08:32:38 PM
An excellent addition to your blog. You thought about a lot of things and I will now be thinking about them too.

Thanks,
8)

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on October 05, 2016, 10:40:31 PM
Very informative, indeed! Thanks much, once again.

Thanks very much to both of you. I have to admit, I was happier with the final result than I was at any time in the gestation process. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 06, 2016, 04:55:29 AM

Hat's off to you, Gurn!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2016, 05:26:54 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 06, 2016, 04:55:29 AM
Hat's off to you, Gurn!

Thanks, Karl.

You can say that, with your hair and all, but for me, it means just a ferocious sunburn... ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on October 06, 2016, 05:27:24 AM

I frequently tell people about the "noise killer" tactic as an illustration of why I enjoy finding out about the context of the music I listen to.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 06, 2016, 05:42:51 AM

Quote from: ørfeo on October 06, 2016, 05:27:24 AM
I frequently tell people about the "noise killer" tactic as an illustration of why I enjoy finding out about the context of the music I listen to.

Oh yes, the context expands the enjoyment for me too. And you frequently hear this in symphonies, even a long, Adagio introduction is a form of it in its perverse way. The less usual thing here is that Haydn stuck it onto a quartet. I think (just my own idea) that it enabled him to continue on the rest of the piece in a style more similar to his own, without some of the other features of a quatuor brillant. No aimless virtuosity, for example.

"I have your attention, now listen to this". :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on October 07, 2016, 09:35:00 AM

Just got an exciting email announcing Vol. 5 of the "Haydn 2032" project! It will be the first to feature the Basel Chamber Orchestra, and it focuses on Haydn's friendship with J.M. Kraus.

The concert programs being performed later this month:

Basel Chamber Orchestra
Giovanni Antonini, conductor

Joseph Haydn:
Symphony no. 19 in D major
Symphony no. 80 in D minor
Symphony no. 81 in G major
Joseph Martin Kraus:
Symphony in C Minor

They are also holding the first academic symposium for the project: "Sturm und Drang Revisited: Haydn, Kraus, and Others" in Basel in a couple weeks.

The Vol. 6 ("Counter-Reformation") announcement will apparently be emailed in February.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 07, 2016, 11:10:26 AM

Quote from: Brian on October 07, 2016, 09:35:00 AM
Just got an exciting email announcing Vol. 5 of the "Haydn 2032" project! It will be the first to feature the Basel Chamber Orchestra, and it focuses on Haydn's friendship with J.M. Kraus.

The concert programs being performed later this month:

Basel Chamber Orchestra
Giovanni Antonini, conductor

Joseph Haydn:
Symphony no. 19 in D major
Symphony no. 80 in D minor
Symphony no. 81 in G major
Joseph Martin Kraus:
Symphony in C Minor

They are also holding the first academic symposium for the project: "Sturm und Drang Revisited: Haydn, Kraus, and Others" in Basel in a couple weeks.

The Vol. 6 ("Counter-Reformation") announcement will apparently be emailed in February.

Excellent, thanks for the news. Hell, they fall behind on this stuff though: I just got Solo e pensoso a couple of months ago, and it was preordered so I got it the day of release. And that is just Vol 3. So we are still waiting on Vol 4... :-\ Well worth the wait though!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 07, 2016, 01:38:50 PM

Not much Haydn, but considerable Haydn chatter (review and interview w/E.z.Guttenerbg) in this piece, just up on Forbes:

The Castle Is Alive With Music: The Herrenchiemsee Festival
(http://blogs-images.forbes.com/jenslaurson/files/2016/10/Herrenchiemsee_Bahn_Laurson_Festival_Forbes-1200x407.jpg?width=960)
http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/10/07/the-castle-is-alive-with-music-the-herrenchiemsee-festival/#7d83cee9640a (http://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2016/10/07/the-castle-is-alive-with-music-the-herrenchiemsee-festival/#7d83cee9640a)

Quote"Ahhh! I love Mahler. I have two, no, three favorites. Johann Sebastian Bach, Gustav Mahler, and Anton Bruckner." I suggest that he had another favorite, whom he must love every bit as much, namely Haydn:

"Haydn? Oh, yes, that's right. I totally forgot about him now. To me, Haydn, you know... I know, Mozart and all, but I, too, actually like Haydn even better. You're often alone with that opinion, but still. And most of all, the progression of music wouldn't be thinkable without Haydn. Mozart was a monolith, but Haydn was the father of Beethoven and all those that would come, no question about it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 07, 2016, 02:31:54 PM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on October 07, 2016, 01:38:50 PM
Not much Haydn, but considerable Haydn chatter (review and interview w/E.z.Guttenerbg) in this piece, just up on Forbes:

Quote...I suggest that he had another favorite, whom he must love every bit as much, namely Haydn:
"Haydn? Oh, yes, that's right. I totally forgot about him now. To me, Haydn, you know... I know, Mozart and all, but I, too, actually like Haydn even better. You're often alone with that opinion, but still. And most of all, the progression of music wouldn't be thinkable without Haydn. Mozart was a monolith, but Haydn was the father of Beethoven and all those that would come, no question about it.

Great quote, and so true! It is hard to find any musician who doesn't think Haydn was the cat's ass. The phrase "he was a musician's musician" was never truer of any other. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 07, 2016, 09:48:07 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 07, 2016, 02:31:54 PM
Great quote, and so true! It is hard to find any musician who doesn't think Haydn was the cat's ass. The phrase "he was a musician's musician" was never truer of any other. :)

8)

I collect quotes about Haydn from conductors, and from Thielemann to Salonen and everyone in between, they all gibber-gabber about their love for Haydn (some volunteer, some have to be prodded), and yet so few do much about it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 08, 2016, 01:23:49 AM

Yes, "I totally forgot about him now" seems accidentally revealing...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 08, 2016, 05:56:53 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on October 07, 2016, 09:48:07 PM
I collect quotes about Haydn from conductors, and from Thielemann to Salonen and everyone in between, they all gibber-gabber about their love for Haydn (some volunteer, some have to be prodded), and yet so few do much about it.

My Balakirev quote seems representative of that somehow to me. A mixed sort of reaction, which I like because it happens to be true for me, but which is certainly not totally hero-worshipful. :)

Quote from: Jo498 on October 08, 2016, 01:23:49 AM
Yes, "I totally forgot about him now" seems accidentally revealing...

I thought just the same when I read it. An afterthought, but brought on by the fact that he is quietly omnipresent, I think. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 08, 2016, 06:26:45 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 08, 2016, 05:56:53 AM
I thought just the same when I read it. An afterthought, but brought on by the fact that he is quietly omnipresent, I think. :)

8)

Tee-hee!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 09, 2016, 12:56:14 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 08, 2016, 05:56:53 AM

I thought just the same when I read it. An afterthought, but brought on by the fact that he is quietly omnipresent, I think. :)

8)

I think you are both right. He's there... and he's taken for granted... but yet we know he's the Alpha minus Bach.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on October 10, 2016, 08:59:15 AM

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/070/MI0001070319.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

This is a most charming disc, the music has an almost Vivaldian playfulness. Gurn, what´s the story behind these works?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on October 10, 2016, 09:43:53 AM

Quote from: Florestan on October 10, 2016, 08:59:15 AM
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/070/MI0001070319.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

This is a most charming disc, the music has an almost Vivaldian playfulness. Gurn, what´s the story behind these works?

Whoa! I did not know about this body of work at all, and consider myself a lute enthusiast...watching this thread extra-carefully today. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on October 10, 2016, 09:55:30 AM

Quote from: Brian on October 10, 2016, 09:43:53 AM
Whoa! I did not know about this body of work at all, and consider myself a lute enthusiast...watching this thread extra-carefully today. 8)

It´s also available as part of the Haydn megabox on Brilliant Classics. That´s where I have it, actually, but the original BIS cover is much more nice. :)

EDIT: Here are the works

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/070/MI0001070320.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 10, 2016, 10:23:18 AM

Quote from: Florestan on October 10, 2016, 08:59:15 AM
(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/070/MI0001070319.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

This is a most charming disc, the music has an almost Vivaldian playfulness. Gurn, what´s the story behind these works?

It is a marvelous disk, Florestan (and Brian), although I have to say that the works on it are not specifically written for the lute, but rather they are some of the early String Quartets (divertimentos) transposed over. As you can see from the back cover, not all of them are the full 5 movements. Hob 04:F2 is an attributed work, very nice, but who knows by whom? May even be Haydn! Anyway, Lindberg and the Drottningholm guys are excellent, as you would expect, even though the music was more or less 'made to order'. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2016, 06:57:45 AM

Well, it's 1794 and we are back in London. Is everything just like we left it? I don't think so! 2 years can be a long time when the world is changing at the rate it was then! See what I mean...

...by His cruel, bloodthirsty subjects (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2016/10/1794-the-year-part-1-.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 17, 2016, 01:12:16 PM

That must have been a really impressive bassoon....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 17, 2016, 03:14:25 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on October 17, 2016, 01:12:16 PM
That must have been a really impressive bassoon....

I remember reading somewhere that Salomon had this virtuoso bassoonist, I think it was back in the 1792 season. When I read this my first thought was that he was still alive and well in London. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Martin Lind on October 17, 2016, 08:58:09 PM

Nice to see this wonderfull thread. I must say that for me Haydn becomes more and more important. When I was a young man, Haydn was for me completely boring. I listened to Bruckner and Mahler, music which was very expressive and creates spiritual enthusiasm. And of course Mozart and Beethoven were for me much more important.

Well, I am 55 now and not 15, and today I am much less impressed by such "overwhelming" musical experiences. What I like today at Haydn is that he writes a music which never plays to the gallery. His music impresses through substance and nothing else.

But I have one question: Which symphonies of Haydn are recommendable apart of the of course very famous Paris and London symphonies? I must say, I have listened to some of he earlier ones in my Adam Fischer box, the 60es and 70es numbers and I must say that I found them relatively boring.

What I really like are his piano sonatas. I have the Brilliant box with fortepianos, but then I have also the Derzhavina box on a modern piano. I must say that I don't like the very early sonatas which are the two first CDs in the Derzhavina box. Maybe they sound better on a cembalo. But the other sonatas who are later are nearly all masterpieces. I mean Beethoven is more "impressive", Haydn seems more simple but this has a great charme. Apart of the Brilliant box and the Derzhaviny box I have also a "Quadromania" CD box with 4 CDs. These are older recordings and I like especially the Rena Kyriakou CD. This box was very cheap but now it's very expensive as it happens sometimes.

Of the string quartetts I haven't already explored every quartett. But I have to say that the early Opus 9 and Opus 17 quartetts which are not as famous as the opus 20 are very good and I like them. I have only Buchberger of Brilliant, some Kodaly quartett CDs, and Opus 33 with the Caspar da Salo quartett, of which some people say that it is very good, although it was published on a bargain label and nobody knows who the Caspar da Salo quartett is and there are many rumours who in reality the Caspar da Salo quartett could be.

What I also want to explore are the piano trios.

Well, I have heard once the sentence "With Haydn you come never to an end". I think the sentence is true, because in Haydn there is really so much wonderfull music to discover.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 18, 2016, 01:00:15 AM

Quote from: Martin Lind on October 17, 2016, 08:58:09 PM
Nice to see this wonderfull thread. I must say that for me Haydn becomes more and more important. When I was a young man, Haydn was for me completely boring. I listened to Bruckner and Mahler, music which was very expressive and creates spiritual enthusiasm. And of course Mozart and Beethoven were for me much more important.

Well, I am 55 now and not 15, and today I am much less impressed by such "overwhelming" musical experiences. What I like today at Haydn is that he writes a music which never plays to the gallery. His music impresses through substance and nothing else.

Excellent description of the process. Haydn is indeed the most important composer in his way, and only because he's not "fast and loud" and not enough of an event, does he get relegated to a very dangerous back ranks. He's critical to our musical health, with "our" including musicians and especially orchestras. ("Why Haydn Should be Mandatory (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2011/06/why-haydn-should-be-mandatory.html)")

QuoteBut I have one question: Which symphonies of Haydn are recommendable apart of the of course very famous Paris and London symphonies? I must say, I have listened to some of he earlier ones in my Adam Fischer box, the 60es and 70es numbers and I must say that I found them relatively boring.

That's unfortunate... but you might find revisiting alone to be worth it. The rule of thumb for Fischer Adam's Haydn is: The earlier the better, the later the less inspired. (By Symphony Number; they started with the high numbers and worked their way down and got better along the way.)

Also, the true but useless answer is: All of them, really. That's part of the miracle of Haydn; he's not an easy 'greatest hits' composer. And the works that do stand out, do so, usually, because they have a 'hook' which then resulted in a nickname which then resulted in closer attention and greater exposure. And just about any work of Haydn's, given greater exposure and more attention, turns out great. (Perhaps not the operas, which have their inalienable qualities but have aged, as a way of dealing with the genre, too much and not well enough.)

Anyway, there are some works, still, that might stand out and which have received multiple wonderful interpretations. Start with Symphonies No. 6 "Le Matin" No. 7 "Le Midi" No. 8 "Le Soir" (http://amzn.to/2efYYwQ) (I find Sir Neville Marriner excellent here, much to my surprise, because I grew up thinking him the boring guy-for-everything.) Another immediately appealing one is No.44 "Mourning" (http://amzn.to/2e3JiB4) (you see, the Nicknames do it. :-)) Here I like many recordings, but the old-yet-wonderful Fricsay has a special place in my heart.

Now I must run, but I'll return to this thread happily.

#HaydnCuresAllProblems

QuoteWhat I really like are his piano sonatas. I have the Brilliant box with fortepianos, but then I have also the Derzhavina box on a modern piano. I must say that I don't like the very early sonatas which are the two first CDs in the Derzhavina box. Maybe they sound better on a cembalo. But the other sonatas who are later are nearly all masterpieces. I mean Beethoven is more "impressive", Haydn seems more simple but this has a great charme. Apart of the Brilliant box and the Derzhaviny box I have also a "Quadromania" CD box with 4 CDs. These are older recordings and I like especially the Rena Kyriakou CD. This box was very cheap but now it's very expensive as it happens sometimes.

Of the string quartetts I haven't already explored every quartett. But I have to say that the early Opus 9 and Opus 17 quartetts which are not as famous as the opus 20 are very good and I like them. I have only Buchberger of Brilliant, some Kodaly quartett CDs, and Opus 33 with the Caspar da Salo quartett, of which some people say that it is very good, although it was published on a bargain label and nobody knows who the Caspar da Salo quartett is and there are many rumours who in reality the Caspar da Salo quartett could be.

What I also want to explore are the piano trios.

Well, I have heard once the sentence "With Haydn you come never to an end". I think the sentence is true, because in Haydn there is really so much wonderfull music to discover.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on October 18, 2016, 02:16:37 AM

QuoteHaydn told Dies about staying the night in Wiesbaden. From his room, Haydn heard someone playing the Andante from the Surprise symphony on the pianoforte. Figuring the player would be well-disposed towards him, he found a group of Prussian officers whom he engaged in discussion. Finding they were great admirers of his music, he introduced himself. They refused to believe he was really Haydn, saying "impossible, you are too old to be Haydn, there is too much fire in your music".

Quote from: The Morning Chronicle, 11 February 1794The incomparable Haydn produced a new Overture of which it is impossible to speak in common terms. It is one of the grandest efforts of the art that we have ever witnessed. It abounds with ideas, as new in music as they are grand and impressive ; it rouses and affects every emotion of the soul.

Hah! 8)

Great installment, as usual.

I wonder if there are any German officers left who play Haydn in their evening meetings... or, are there any German officers passionately interested in, and playing, German contemporary music?... ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on October 18, 2016, 04:07:49 AM

I try to recreate that concert. Good candidates are:

- for the Rosetti symphony, the G minor Kaul I:27, Murray A41. It dates from 1787, but the program doesn´t advertise it as "new" and moreover "grand" suits it perfectly.

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0003/539/MI0003539571.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

- for the Viotti "new concerto", the D major W20/G92 (1795)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/414J91760TL.jpg)

I´ve been less sucessfull in identifying the Dussek "new concerto". Any ideas and recommended recordings?

As for the arias and scenes, the case is hopeless. No titles provided, no composers either. :(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2016, 04:46:13 AM

Quote from: Florestan on October 18, 2016, 04:07:49 AM
I try to recreate that concert. Good candidates are:

- for the Rosetti symphony, the G minor Kaul I:27, Murray A41. It dates from 1787, but the program doesn´t advertise it as "new" and moreover "grand" suits it perfectly.

- for the Viotti "new concerto", the D major W20/G92 (1795)

I´ve been less sucessfull in identifying the Dussek "new concerto". Any ideas and recommended recordings?

As for the arias and scenes, the case is hopeless. No titles provided, no composers either. :(

He wrote a concerto in F which he published in 1794, speculation is it was this one. When I am home I will post a CD cover which has that concerto on it, I believe the same one. It is actually on a disk with some Pleyel.

I love recreating concert tickets that way. I can tell you that the arias which Mara sang were by Anfossi and (IIRC) Guglielmi. One never gets more info than that, and usually not that much.

Those CD's you listed are a great resource. Other than the Viotti a minor which I have by Walffisch, that is my go-to Viotti box too.

Quote from: Florestan on October 18, 2016, 02:16:37 AM
Hah! 8)

Great installment, as usual.

I wonder if there are any German officers left who play Haydn in their evening meetings... or, are there any German officers passionately interested in, and playing, German contemporary music?... ;D

Thanks, I appreciate it. That same question occurred to me while I was writing that section. Of course, back then, being an officer put you in the same class as minor (at least) nobility, and so you got the education and the culture. Now, being an officer means you went to school and did well. Even though it should mean the same thing, it probably doesn't. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2016, 04:53:53 AM

Quote from: Martin Lind on October 17, 2016, 08:58:09 PM
Nice to see this wonderfull thread. I must say that for me Haydn becomes more and more important. When I was a young man, Haydn was for me completely boring. I listened to Bruckner and Mahler, music which was very expressive and creates spiritual enthusiasm. And of course Mozart and Beethoven were for me much more important.

Well, I am 55 now and not 15, and today I am much less impressed by such "overwhelming" musical experiences. What I like today at Haydn is that he writes a music which never plays to the gallery. His music impresses through substance and nothing else.

But I have one question: Which symphonies of Haydn are recommendable apart of the of course very famous Paris and London symphonies? I must say, I have listened to some of he earlier ones in my Adam Fischer box, the 60es and 70es numbers and I must say that I found them relatively boring.

What I really like are his piano sonatas. I have the Brilliant box with fortepianos, but then I have also the Derzhavina box on a modern piano. I must say that I don't like the very early sonatas which are the two first CDs in the Derzhavina box. Maybe they sound better on a cembalo. But the other sonatas who are later are nearly all masterpieces. I mean Beethoven is more "impressive", Haydn seems more simple but this has a great charme. Apart of the Brilliant box and the Derzhaviny box I have also a "Quadromania" CD box with 4 CDs. These are older recordings and I like especially the Rena Kyriakou CD. This box was very cheap but now it's very expensive as it happens sometimes.

Of the string quartetts I haven't already explored every quartett. But I have to say that the early Opus 9 and Opus 17 quartetts which are not as famous as the opus 20 are very good and I like them. I have only Buchberger of Brilliant, some Kodaly quartett CDs, and Opus 33 with the Caspar da Salo quartett, of which some people say that it is very good, although it was published on a bargain label and nobody knows who the Caspar da Salo quartett is and there are many rumours who in reality the Caspar da Salo quartett could be.

What I also want to explore are the piano trios.

Well, I have heard once the sentence "With Haydn you come never to an end". I think the sentence is true, because in Haydn there is really so much wonderfull music to discover.

Martin,
A very warm welcome to Unser Haus. I find your story very interesting, in that it parallels my own in so many ways. I also used to be far more impressed by the Sturm und Drang of the 19th century. I had found Haydn early, too early to really appreciate his good qualities, but some things caught my ear anyway.

Your questions are all reasonable ones, with many composers one can invest a fortune in 'versions' by different performers. In Haydn, I have found that the music itself is greater than the power of the performer to alter it, and so most performances are at least very good. All of the performances that have been recommended by Jens, for example, I also found to be very good. So it really depends on your particular taste and interest. For me, I only have period instrument recordings and no interest beyond that. If this is where you have an interest, let me know and I will recommend some things.

Welcome again, regards,
Gurn 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on October 18, 2016, 05:10:48 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2016, 04:46:13 AM
He wrote a concerto in F which he published in 1794, speculation is it was this one. When I am home I will post a CD cover which has that concerto on it, I believe the same one. It is actually on a disk with some Pleyel.

Thanks in advance.

Quotecourse, back then, being an officer put you in the same class as minor (at least) nobility, and so you got the education and the culture. Now, being an officer means you went to school and did well. Even though it should mean the same thing, it probably doesn't. :-\

I have been reading recently the memoirs of the great Romanian pianist Aurelia Cionca (1888-1962). She recalls that in 1944, just before leaving Bucharest for the countryside (the capital city had been bombarded the day before by the US aviation), a young German soldier (soldier, not officer, mind you!) who was a pianist and who had borrowed some scored from her came to her house with another comrade soldier and asked her to play Bach for them. While playing the Fantasia chromatica, she noticed the two men had started to weep. "I think I´ve never ever played it better ", she writes.

O tempora, o mores!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 18, 2016, 05:43:10 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2016, 04:53:53 AM
In Haydn, I have found that the music itself is greater than the power of the performer to alter it, and so most performances are at least very good.
Gurn 8)

That's the only aspect with which I would disagree with Gurn... and very considerably. I think that Haydn is in fact one of the most difficult composers to play/conduct... and that more often than not, at least when performed live, it done far, far short of what it should be. As a result (and with Haydn not being taken seriously enough by some artists), there are some really, really boring Haydn performances to be heard out there... reinforcing a negative image in the minds of casual concert goers. True, with recordings, at least the 'not taking it seriously' aspect is, one would think, taken care of. Still, it's best do get Haydn really well performed and then (I think, though I understand that may not be shared by everyone) I don't care whether it's a HIP performance that succeeds, or a non-HIP one. (As can be seen by the recommendations that came to mind immediately, since neither of them are, whereas I tend, generally speaking, to prefer HIP by a good measure. [Only in the context of this forum could I be considered not-a-HIPster :D]

One problem with HIP performances of earlier symphonies: There are not that many single discs that spring to mind.

Two sets (apart from complete and nearly-complete sets, which don't really offer what you are seeking) that I think are worth hearing are:

Pinnock / Sturm & Drang Symphonies (26, 35, 38, 39, 41-52, 58, 59, 65 (http://amzn.to/2ee0RuT) and Bruno Weil (41-74, 50-52, 64, 65 + 6 Paris Symphonies) (http://amzn.to/2dxz08X).

The Peter Goodman recordings (http://amzn.to/2eMUFfj) on Helios are available singly, also (only), but that's the one cycle I know the least .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2016, 06:15:09 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on October 18, 2016, 05:43:10 AM
That's the only aspect with which I would disagree with Gurn... and very considerably. I think that Haydn is in fact one of the most difficult composers to play/conduct... and that more often than not, at least when performed live, it done far, far short of what it should be. As a result (and with Haydn not being taken seriously enough by some artists), there are some really, really boring Haydn performances to be heard out there... reinforcing a negative image in the minds of casual concert goers. True, with recordings, at least the 'not taking it seriously' aspect is, one would think, taken care of. Still, it's best do get Haydn really well performed and then (I think, though I understand that may not be shared by everyone) I don't care whether it's a HIP performance that succeeds, or a non-HIP one. (As can be seen by the recommendations that came to mind immediately, since neither of them are, whereas I tend, generally speaking, to prefer HIP by a good measure. [Only in the context of this forum could I be considered not-a-HIPster :D]

One problem with HIP performances of earlier symphonies: There are not that many single discs that spring to mind.

Two sets (apart from complete and nearly-complete sets, which don't really offer what you are seeking) that I think are worth hearing are:

Pinnock / Sturm & Drang Symphonies (26, 35, 38, 39, 41-52, 58, 59, 65 (http://amzn.to/2ee0RuT) and Bruno Weil (41-74, 50-52, 64, 65 + 6 Paris Symphonies) (http://amzn.to/2dxz08X).

The Peter Goodman recordings (http://amzn.to/2eMUFfj) on Helios are available singly, also (only), but that's the one cycle I know the least .

I think the key to your post is this very important statement: "and that more often than not, at least when performed live, it done far, far short of what it should be."

I am first to admit I have not heard a lot of the old 'historic' recordings of Haydn, I just don't olisten to that stuff, no matter the composer. The Haydn I have heard 'live' did indeed suffer from 'show opener syndrome', as in 'don't worry, the heavyweight stuff is coming'.

But modern recordings, at least those made since the mid-'80's, PI or not, have been almost all committed-sounding, anyway. I don't even have the reservations about Fischer, although I have certainly read them often, I think there are some sound issues, but not player issues, anyway. The cynical 'lightweight' tag that got hung on Haydn back around the time of his death has finally seemed to be lifted, with virtually all his music except for the concertos. And if people will take the time to learn something about them, I think they will be better received too.

And as I have been saying since I started posting heavily in this thread, I don't care if you prefer PI or MI, what I care about is that you listen to Haydn. Die Musik über alles!

8)

PS - FWIW, I think you're hip... :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 18, 2016, 06:27:23 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2016, 06:15:09 AM
But modern recordings, at least those made since the mid-'80's, PI or not, have been almost all committed-sounding, anyway.

I'm putting that theory to the test, right now: :)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CvDn9quWcAA5Ymd.jpg)
classicalcritic#morninglistening to #Haydn's #creation w/#Marriner & @asmforchestra on @deccaclassics (Philips)
w/#FiDi, Edith Mathis & Aldo Baldin from 1980. Trying to gain some appreciation for Marriner which, to be honest, I had never quite
fully developed. When I grew up, Marriner was the omnipresent must-hear (as in: no choice) Mozart et al. go-to conductor, just
churning it out by the indiscriminate dozens. I am beginning to differentiate now. #HaydnCuresAllProblems

#classicalmusic #classicalmusiccollection #choralmusic #oratorium (http://amzn.to/2eN6DFC)

Quote
PS - FWIW, I think you're hip... :)

Yo, man, I diggit!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2016, 06:57:42 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on October 18, 2016, 06:27:23 AM
I'm putting that theory to the test, right now: :)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CvDn9quWcAA5Ymd.jpg)
classicalcritic#morninglistening to #Haydn's #creation w/#Marriner & @asmforchestra on @deccaclassics (Philips)
w/#FiDi, Edith Mathis & Aldo Baldin from 1980. Trying to gain some appreciation for Marriner which, to be honest, I had never quite
fully developed. When I grew up, Marriner was the omnipresent must-hear (as in: no choice) Mozart et al. go-to conductor, just
churning it out by the indiscriminate dozens. I am beginning to differentiate now. #HaydnCuresAllProblems

#classicalmusic #classicalmusiccollection #choralmusic #oratorium (http://amzn.to/2eN6DFC)

Yo, man, I diggit!

Good, I'll be curious of your opinion. Before I became so committed to my current course, I liked the hell out of Sir Neville, and no reason to think otherwise now. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2016, 10:33:24 AM

Quote from: Florestan on October 18, 2016, 05:10:48 AM
Thanks in advance.

I have had just moments to look around. He wrote 2 concertos in F, Opus 17 from 1792, which is the one I have, and Opus 27 from 1794, which is the one that I believe he played in this concert, since it was listed as brand new. There are a couple of recordings of it available, I see at Amazon. You can probably find it online now, knowing the name of it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 18, 2016, 11:05:02 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2016, 06:57:42 AM
Good, I'll be curious of your opinion. Before I became so committed to my current course, I liked the hell out of Sir Neville, and no reason to think otherwise now. :)

8)

Indeed!! I was just listening to my recording of Marriner's Season's a few days back and, as usual, came away feeling this is primo Haydn music-making.

I'm thinking it's time to perhaps explore Marriner's (too few) recordings of the symphonies...

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on October 14, 2016, 09:55:08 PM
Haydn, Seasons, Marriner.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81axOAGG-lL._SL1500_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 18, 2016, 11:17:35 AM

Marriner's "Paris symphonies" are (among) the best of the modern chamber orchestra recordings; especially in the "lighter" symphonies (esp. 85 and 87) his brilliant approach works well and they are among my favorite recordings of these works (and besides Bernstein's the only complete modern instruments set I kept). He recorded a bunch of "name symphonies" (some in that box are with Leppard, though, and it is probably unavailable anyway) as well as 6-8 but I have not heard them. He (or Iona Brown?) also accompanies several nice concerto recordings, e.g. cello with Heinrich Schiff and the horn concerti.

I think I have the oratorios in a larger sacred music box but I don't think I have heard them. He also did 4? of the last 6 masses with Staatskapelle Dresden for EMI (respectively the East German Eterna).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2016, 11:27:45 AM

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on October 18, 2016, 11:05:02 AM
Indeed!! I was just listening to my recording of Marriner's Season's a few days back and, as usual, came away feeling this is primo Haydn music-making.

I'm thinking it's time to perhaps explore Marriner's (too few) recordings of the symphonies...

Hey, DD. Yes, I haven't heard NM doing The Seasons, but it is the sort of music which would be right up his alley. I base what I think of him in Haydn on what I know of him in Mozart, which I think he really had a grip on, one which the big name Romantic specialists never quite got by the tail.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2016, 11:41:12 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on October 18, 2016, 11:17:35 AM
Marriner's "Paris symphonies" are (among) the best of the modern chamber orchestra recordings; especially in the "lighter" symphonies (esp. 85 and 87) his brilliant approach works well and they are among my favorite recordings of these works (and besides Bernstein's the only complete modern instruments set I kept). He recorded a bunch of "name symphonies" (some in that box are with Leppard, though, and it is probably unavailable anyway) as well as 6-8 but I have not heard them. He (or Iona Brown?) also accompanies several nice concerto recordings, e.g. cello with Heinrich Schiff and the horn concerti.

I think I have the oratorios in a larger sacred music box but I don't think I have heard them. He also did 4? of the last 6 masses with Staatskapelle Dresden for EMI (respectively the East German Eterna).

Pretty well verifies what my gut told me. I think you are right, it is Iona Brown. Good fiddler, too! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 18, 2016, 11:51:03 AM

As for Fischer's recordings of the symphonies, I think they are all over the place. There are some sound issues with the earlier recordings and for some of them (London/Paris, the only one of them I remember quite positively is the Concertante with great Vienna soloists) there are too many clearly superior choices. But there are some surprisingly good ones, usually among the ones recorded later. The later recordings have better, more direct sound, although there is occasionally some sloppy playing or passages.
E.g. while his #45 is quite lame, the much later recorded 39 and 26 are among the best, IMO only beaten by Solomons. Or compare his #22 (early, lame) with 21 (late, very good).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 18, 2016, 11:53:46 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2016, 11:41:12 AM
Pretty well verifies what my gut told me. I think you are right, it is Iona Brown. Good fiddler, too! :)

I checked what I have: the Horn concertos are Baumann/Brown but the trumpet is Hardenberger/Marriner and the 'cello Schiff/Marriner

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 18, 2016, 12:22:04 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on October 18, 2016, 11:17:35 AM
Marriner's "Paris symphonies" are (among) the best of the modern chamber orchestra recordings; especially in the "lighter" symphonies (esp. 85 and 87) his brilliant approach works well and they are among my favorite recordings of these works (and besides Bernstein's the only complete modern instruments set I kept). He recorded a bunch of "name symphonies" (some in that box are with Leppard, though, and it is probably unavailable anyway) as well as 6-8 but I have not heard them. He (or Iona Brown?) also accompanies several nice concerto recordings, e.g. cello with Heinrich Schiff and the horn concerti.

I think I have the oratorios in a larger sacred music box but I don't think I have heard them. He also did 4? of the last 6 masses with Staatskapelle Dresden for EMI (respectively the East German Eterna).

He's got all the concertos, probably, between the disc you mention and the ones on Capriccio (VC 1 & 3, Sinfonia Concertante/Stuttgart), Oboe Concerto, Trumpet...

Quote from: Jo498 on October 18, 2016, 11:17:35 AM
...as well as 6-8 but I have not heard them.

I never had them, since, well, I didn't grow up very appreciative of Marriner. But at my parents, when I was in the mood for Haydn and there was no other recording at hand, I plopped it in... and darn it, it is really good. I wanted to be patronizing about it, in a way, but no... really good.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Dancing Divertimentian on October 18, 2016, 12:36:46 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2016, 11:27:45 AM
Hey, DD. Yes, I haven't heard NM doing The Seasons, but it is the sort of music which would be right up his alley. I base what I think of him in Haydn on what I know of him in Mozart, which I think he really had a grip on, one which the big name Romantic specialists never quite got by the tail.

8)

Hey back, Gurn. Yeah, makes sense to me. I have several discs of NM's Mozart (in fact, it's the only NM I have aside from Haydn's Seasons) and I find them all truly insightful. So, yes, NM in Haydn - overall - ought to be dandy (with that great Seasons recording a testament to that).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on October 19, 2016, 05:45:25 AM

https://www.youtube.com/v/TmhkJTrcmqM

Second theme of the Allegro starts at 3:39

https://www.youtube.com/v/s9t-kCzCKMU

Main theme of the Allegro starts at 0:25

Mere coincidence or deliberate quotation? :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2016, 05:55:39 AM

Quote from: Florestan on October 19, 2016, 05:45:25 AM
https://www.youtube.com/v/TmhkJTrcmqM

Second theme of the Allegro starts at 3:39

https://www.youtube.com/v/s9t-kCzCKMU

Main theme of the Allegro starts at 0:25

Mere coincidence or deliberate quotation? :D

Copyright doesn't let 2nd video work in USA. What piece of work is it? If it is Mozart, then yes, there is a chance. If it is something else, then I don't know. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on October 19, 2016, 05:56:56 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2016, 05:55:39 AM
Copyright doesn't let 2nd video work in USA. What piece of work is it? If it is Mozart, then yes, there is a chance. If it is something else, then I don't know. :)

8)

Prokofiev´s 1st Piano Concerto. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 19, 2016, 06:12:15 AM

Quote from: Florestan on October 19, 2016, 05:45:25 AM

Mere coincidence or deliberate quotation? :D

I am going with coincidence. Prokofiev was widely familiar with a LOT of Haydn but I've not read anything about this being deliberate (i.e. in his diaries) nor does it sound deliberate enough to my ears (for whatever that's worth).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on October 19, 2016, 06:17:40 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on October 19, 2016, 06:12:15 AM
I am going with coincidence. Prokofiev was widely familiar with a LOT of Haydn but I've not read anything about this being deliberate (i.e. in his diaries) nor does it sound deliberate enough to my ears (for whatever that's worth).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2016, 06:19:27 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on October 19, 2016, 06:12:15 AM
I am going with coincidence. Prokofiev was widely familiar with a LOT of Haydn but I've not read anything about this being deliberate (i.e. in his diaries) nor does it sound deliberate enough to my ears (for whatever that's worth).

I would agree with that. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on October 19, 2016, 06:33:22 AM

Coincidence it is, then, but the resemblance of the themes at least in the first bars is striking --- to my ears at least. I started listeining to Haydn and when the second theme entered, my reaction was "Just where did I hear exactly the same thing?" and after a while the answer came "Why, of course, it´s the beginning of Prokofiev´s 1st PC!"

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 19, 2016, 07:42:04 AM

For me it is rather an example how superficial resemblance and a few shared notes cannot hide that both themes are very dissimilar in "gesture" and effect.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 19, 2016, 07:44:31 AM

He was steeped in Haydn, particularly in the conducting class at the Conservatory. (Just an additive footnote.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 19, 2016, 07:51:32 AM

Quote from: Florestan on October 19, 2016, 05:45:25 AM
Mere coincidence or deliberate quotation? :D

Prokofiev Piano Concerto No.1 "The Cat" 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 19, 2016, 07:57:15 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 19, 2016, 07:51:32 AM
Prokofiev Piano Concerto No.1 "The Cat" 8)

Sarge

« Котик »

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on October 19, 2016, 01:21:48 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on October 19, 2016, 07:42:04 AM
For me it is rather an example how superficial resemblance and a few shared notes cannot hide that both themes are very dissimilar in "gesture" and effect.

Indeed, and that is what is truly awful about a number of recent cases alleging copying. Judges and juries have been led down a false path by breaking down music into ridiculously small chunks.

I can't remember right now which of those cases it was, but a commentator demonstrated what happens: you get to the point where you can "prove" that the 2 pieces of music share the same fragment of a pattern, but what's not mentioned in court is that it is possible to find lots of other music that also shares the same pattern - including music that pre-dates the piece allegedly copied.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2016, 03:55:23 PM

Quote from: ørfeo on October 19, 2016, 01:21:48 PM
Indeed, and that is what is truly awful about a number of recent cases alleging copying. Judges and juries have been led down a false path by breaking down music into ridiculously small chunks.

I can't remember right now which of those cases it was, but a commentator demonstrated what happens: you get to the point where you can "prove" that the 2 pieces of music share the same fragment of a pattern, but what's not mentioned in court is that it is possible to find lots of other music that also shares the same pattern - including music that pre-dates the piece allegedly copied.

I think that was the Stairway to Heaven case, where Jimmy Page when on to say something like "it's just a series of descending thirds, not anything special". Page and Plant won that case, as well they should have. Shit, Haydn could have sued them and used the proceeds to pay Bach, who could have used the proceeds to pay.... ::)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on October 20, 2016, 12:44:52 AM

Cross post from the Concerts thread.

Last evening, at the Radio Concert Hall, Bucharest, a traditional "aristocratic" concert. :)

ORCHESTRA DE CAMERĂ RADIO
Dirijor:CRISTIAN BRÂNCUŞI

CORUL ACADEMIC RADIO
Dirijor:CIPRIAN ȚUȚU

Soliști:
ADRIAN JOJATU– fagot
EMIL LANCEA – clarinet
CRISTINA OLTEAN – soprană
GEANINA MUNTEANU – alto
TONY BARDON – tenor
CRISTIAN HODREA – bas

C. M. von Weber: Andante şi Rondo ungarese în do minor, op. 35, J.158 pentru fagot şi orchestră
Franz Danzi: Concertino în Si bemol major pentru clarinet, fagot şi orchestră, op. 47
J. Haydn: Missa nr. 9 în Do major ,,In Tempore Belli – Paukenmesse", Hob. XXII:9

It´s in Romanian but I´m sure you´ll understand everything except "dirijor" which means "conductor" and "fagot" which means "bassoon".

My first listen to Paukenmesse and I am quite impressed, particularly by the "Miserere nobis" for bass and cello obbligato, the "Benedictus" quartet and the final choral supplication "Dona nobis pacem", which in the context of the premiere must have been especially moving. And the timpani were indeed prominent. I loved it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on October 20, 2016, 04:32:30 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2016, 03:55:23 PM
I think that was the Stairway to Heaven case, where Jimmy Page when on to say something like "it's just a series of descending thirds, not anything special". Page and Plant won that case, as well they should have. Shit, Haydn could have sued them and used the proceeds to pay Bach, who could have used the proceeds to pay.... ::)

8)

Actually, I'm pretty sure it was the Blurred Lines case. Which is currently under appeal with large numbers of musicians horrified by the implications of it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 20, 2016, 04:41:21 AM

Quote from: Florestan on October 20, 2016, 12:44:52 AM
Cross post from the Concerts thread.

Last evening, at the Radio Concert Hall, Bucharest, a traditional "aristocratic" concert. :)

ORCHESTRA DE CAMERĂ RADIO
Dirijor:CRISTIAN BRÂNCUŞI

CORUL ACADEMIC RADIO
Dirijor:CIPRIAN ȚUȚU

Soliști:
ADRIAN JOJATU– fagot
EMIL LANCEA – clarinet
CRISTINA OLTEAN – soprană
GEANINA MUNTEANU – alto
TONY BARDON – tenor
CRISTIAN HODREA – bas

C. M. von Weber: Andante şi Rondo ungarese în do minor, op. 35, J.158 pentru fagot şi orchestră
Franz Danzi: Concertino în Si bemol major pentru clarinet, fagot şi orchestră, op. 47
J. Haydn: Missa nr. 9 în Do major ,,In Tempore Belli – Paukenmesse", Hob. XXII:9

It´s in Romanian but I´m sure you´ll understand everything except "dirijor" which means "conductor" and "fagot" which means "bassoon".

My first listen to Paukenmesse and I am quite impressed, particularly by the "Miserere nobis" for bass and cello obbligato, the "Benedictus" quartet and the final choral supplication "Dona nobis pacem", which in the context of the premiere must have been especially moving. And the timpani were indeed prominent. I loved it.

Man, what a nice lineup! Some favorites there, and not just the Haydn, but Weber and Danzi both. Glad you enjoyed it. A little jealous too. :D :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 20, 2016, 04:50:47 AM

Quote from: ørfeo on October 20, 2016, 04:32:30 AM
Actually, I'm pretty sure it was the Blurred Lines case. Which is currently under appeal with large numbers of musicians horrified by the implications of it.

There you go, the implications of each were much the same. At least Led Zeppelin's case appeared to have a trial judge with a sense of understanding of the issues. I thought the Blurred Lines case was exactly that. I wonder how well Handel's reply of 'yes, I took his theme, but I did much better things with it' would wash these days.

My real questions on the matter though are these: even if those guys "stole" that little riff Marvin Gaye used in his song;
A> what harm was done to Marvin Gaye (or his heirs) by it??
B> what positive money-making good did it do Thicke and Williams??

IMHO, the audiences for those 2 songs are very different, many of them wouldn't have known the difference even if Thicke was doing an actual cover of Gaye's song. And what harm did it do Gaye? Not least that he is dead, but how were his heirs harmed? Was the actual Gaye song watered down in value because a similar sounding riff was used in another song 40 years later? I don't see it.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pat B on October 24, 2016, 10:23:52 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 20, 2016, 04:50:47 AM
My real questions on the matter though are these: even if those guys "stole" that little riff Marvin Gaye used in his song;
A> what harm was done to Marvin Gaye (or his heirs) by it??
B> what positive money-making good did it do Thicke and Williams??

Damage estimation is nothing new.

"Blurred Lines" is an apt metaphor for musical copyright cases. It's rarely clear-cut. Here the defendants didn't copy a riff; they copied the vibe -- production vs. songwriting. In some sense the vibe is more important than a riff, but it's a nebulous concept and AFAIK it had never been protected before.

From the accounts I read it sounded like the jury's decision may have hinged on the unlikeability of the defendants.

If this is an isolated case, it's not that big of a deal. But if it opens the floodgates for "this song sort of reminds me of that song" lawsuits, that will be disastrous.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 30, 2016, 02:23:28 PM

Busy times: after all the researching and writing and picture locating, I realized it was just 3 weeks in 1794 time!

Best of time, worst of time? (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2016/10/1794-the-year-part-2-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 12, 2016, 07:18:13 AM

I've spent three and a half years doing this, and finally got to my favorite symphony. I hope you are interested in what I had to say about it. I was. :D :D

Not just for fun (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2016/11/1794-the-year-part-3-.html)

Enjoy, and thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on November 12, 2016, 02:10:56 PM

"It is somewhat less learned, and easier to take in, than some of the other newest works by him, but it is still just as rich in new ideas."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 12, 2016, 04:00:25 PM

Quote from: ørfeo on November 12, 2016, 02:10:56 PM
"It is somewhat less learned, and easier to take in, than some of the other newest works by him, but it is still just as rich in new ideas."

Great quote. I always enjoy the rare opportunity to see what his contemporaries thought. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on November 15, 2016, 07:30:41 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 12, 2016, 07:18:13 AM
I've spent three and a half years doing this, and finally got to my favorite symphony. I hope you are interested in what I had to say about it. I was. :D :D

Not just for fun (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2016/11/1794-the-year-part-3-.html)

Hard for me to maintain a permanent favorite among Haydn's works. The one that I'm listening to at the moment has a great advantage.

I appreciate all the context that you bring me about Haydn's works.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 16, 2016, 04:25:59 AM

Our Gurn is doing the musical world real service.

Quote from: Old Listener on November 15, 2016, 07:30:41 PM
Hard for me to maintain a permanent favorite among Haydn's works.

Nor me. And so, when someone who knows the symphonies much, much better than do I has a signal favorite, I take note. I may still never have a fixed favorite, but I appreciate the other perspective.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on November 16, 2016, 04:42:37 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 12, 2016, 07:18:13 AM
I've spent three and a half years doing this, and finally got to my favorite symphony. I hope you are interested in what I had to say about it. I was. :D :D

Not just for fun (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2016/11/1794-the-year-part-3-.html)

Enjoy, and thanks,
8)

As usual, a most informative, illuminating and entertaining post. It only reenforces my idea that we have ireedemably lost any possibility to hear Haydn´s music (or indeed of any Classical Era composer) the way their contemporaries did --- and I´m not talking about period instruments but about period ears and worldview.

Thanks, Gurn, keep them coming!

And God bless your father´s soul.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 16, 2016, 04:56:52 AM

Quote from: Old Listener on November 15, 2016, 07:30:41 PM
Hard for me to maintain a permanent favorite among Haydn's works. The one that I'm listening to at the moment has a great advantage.

I appreciate all the context that you bring me about Haydn's works.

I know exactly what you mean, 99% of the time I am just the same. But since this was my introduction to the corpus, its aura for me extends beyond its mere musical quality.

The longer I do this, the more I realize the importance of context in the enjoyment of a work. I appreciate this one that much more knowing the background of it. :)

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 16, 2016, 04:25:59 AM
Our Gurn is doing the musical world real service.

Nor me. And so, when someone who knows the symphonies much, much better than do I has a signal favorite, I take note. I may still never have a fixed favorite, but I appreciate the other perspective.

Thanks, Karl. I am, truly, trying to do this for my peers, who may not have access to the materials I have, or the patience to slog through the swamp to get to the stuff that makes one realize how human and interesting Haydn's life was. It was interesting times. Favorite is as favorite does. 100 has an unfair advantage over the rest of them. :)

Quote from: Florestan on November 16, 2016, 04:42:37 AM
As usual, a most informative, illuminating and entertaining post. It only reenforces my idea that we have ireedemably lost any possibility to hear Haydn´s music (or indeed of any Classical Era composer) the way their contemporaries did --- and I´m not talking about period instruments but about period ears and worldview.

Thanks, Gurn, keep them coming!

And God bless your father´s soul.

Sad as it is to say, I must agree; we can analyze and understand the elements of how people heard this music, but we just can't do it ourselves. Yet, anyone who wrote anything about the music they heard in that time was easily able to understand exactly what the composer was trying to say. It was only the composer's degree of mastery of his tools which made a work comprehensible or not. Now, I see that the obvious lack of understanding down the road, which I first picked up on in the operas carried over even more-so to the instrumental works. At least, knowing context helps you to go beyond the mere entertainment factor, which is, after all, quite huge. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on November 16, 2016, 05:12:55 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 16, 2016, 04:56:52 AM
Thanks, Karl. I am, truly, trying to do this for my peers, who may not have access to the materials I have, or the patience to slog through the swamp to get to the stuff that makes one realize how human and interesting Haydn's life was.

Have you ever considered assembling all installments chronologically in one single pdf file ? That would be one of the most interesting, educational and helpful e-books ever.

Quotewe can analyze and understand the elements of how people heard this music, but we just can't do it ourselves.

Exactly.

QuoteAt least, knowing context helps you to go beyond the mere entertainment factor, which is, after all, quite huge. :)

This, too.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 18, 2016, 12:38:21 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on November 18, 2016, 12:36:24 AM
Listening to

Fugue for Thought's podcast with Gurn Blanston.

http://fugueforthought.podbean.com/ (http://fugueforthought.podbean.com/)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 18, 2016, 04:47:00 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on November 18, 2016, 12:38:21 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on November 18, 2016, 12:36:24 AM
Listening to

Fugue for Thought's podcast with Gurn Blanston.

http://fugueforthought.podbean.com/ (http://fugueforthought.podbean.com/)

Pretty radical stuff, eh, Jens? :D ;D Well, it does, at least, give you an idea how my head works. When I was listening to it myself, I thought of that, how my approach to writing derives from how my imagination works on the facts. The challenge of non-fiction is how do you deal with the facts you are dealt. I was fortunate in many ways; Haydn dealt me a pretty good hand. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on November 18, 2016, 09:03:57 PM

Gurn (or anyone else),

I'm slightly puzzled by extra things in my shiny new Hogwood box: a Menuet and Trio and a Finale, both in C major and both dated around 1773-4.

Do these even have a Hoboken number? Are they later discoveries, or tucked away somewhere in a "bits and pieces" bit of the catalogue?

From the notes you supplied me from when the Hogwood was released in smaller volumes, it seems they were turned into a symphony by being combined with the overture to L'infedeltà delusa, and I gather this procedure is not unprecedented. What puzzles me, I guess, is why they are not still connected to the overture. If other symphonies were made this way, how come this one didn't stick?

I did a bit of a look on your blog to see if I could find anything, but no luck.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on November 19, 2016, 12:40:52 AM

On vol.8 of the separate issues the text says that Haydn himself quickly separated the "symphony" again, sold the ouverture to Artaria, used the finale in an earlier version of #63 (but replaced this very quickly with the later finale of that piece). The reported scholarly conclusion is to treat the two movements as fragment.
For me as a listener, it would very probably more interesting to get the "cobbled" symphony as the ouverture in question is not a well known piece anyway and a 4-movement-symphony would probably be nicer to listen to than such a fragment.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on November 19, 2016, 01:01:43 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on November 19, 2016, 12:40:52 AM
For me as a listener, it would very probably more interesting to get the "cobbled" symphony as the ouverture in question is not a well known piece anyway and a 4-movement-symphony would probably be nicer to listen to than such a fragment.

Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking. Sure, tell me the history of it, but if other "cobbled" symphonies, where Haydn reused theatrical material, are permitted to stand as part of the canon, it seems a shame to not offer the same kind of thing in this case.

I haven't actually listened to any of the symphonies of that kind yet, just seeing what's coming up over the course of 32 discs...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on November 19, 2016, 01:27:12 AM

I had to go through the whole booklet to get that information. From the tracklisting on the first pages it looked to me as if those were alternative movements for #50 or #54 (the latter is not possible because of the keys). And with Hogwood presenting alternative versions of some other symphonies I do find it strange that they did not go for the Infedelta-ouverture + Menuett & Finale.

Apparently with the other symphonies that use theater music (like 50 or 60) they simply argue that Haydn created them as symphonies and never had second thoughts (and then they have been treated accordingly by editors for more than 200 years). But we probably do not know enough about his second thoughts wrt the Infedelta-symphony.

Faced with all kinds of odd arrangements, reconstructions etc. as we are today, I find it odd that people suddenly seem to get squeamish with pieces that *did* exist, even if they were taken apart again later.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 19, 2016, 06:39:56 AM

Making ad hoc symphonies was not in the least unusual in those days. Oddly enough, that same group of players, in their 'Complete Mozart Symphonies' box, include many which were put together from overtures or extracted from orchestral serenades. Could they have left it reassembled and simply highlighted it in the notes? Absolutely. And of course, you can reassemble it yourself if you have Huss' disk of overtures or actually have the opera,although that is less satisfactory, for sure. My guess, it was a judgment call. Since Neal Zaslaw was the tech consultant on Mozart, and James Webster on Haydn, I would suspect the decision reflected a personal taste of the consultant. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on November 19, 2016, 11:46:25 AM

Do these stray waifs have a Hoboken entry, or did they totally miss out?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 19, 2016, 11:49:10 AM

Quote from: ørfeo on November 19, 2016, 11:46:25 AM
Do these stray waifs have a Hoboken entry, or did they totally miss out?

If they do, it has not been prominently advertised. They must be, though, in an Anhang (appendix) somewhere. I will see what I can find. At the moment I am drawing blanks. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on November 19, 2016, 12:24:03 PM

I just found that Henle publishes them in its complete Haydn edition.

They are labelled, or rather the symphony as a whole is labelled, as: "Sinfonia with Minuet/Final C major Hob. deest "

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 19, 2016, 01:55:21 PM

Quote from: ørfeo on November 19, 2016, 12:24:03 PM
I just found that Henle publishes them in its complete Haydn edition.

They are labelled, or rather the symphony as a whole is labelled, as: "Sinfonia with Minuet/Final C major Hob. deest "

Ah, yes. Hob. deest. "Not appearing in Hoboken". Good research. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ghost Sonata on November 19, 2016, 03:17:49 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 19, 2016, 01:55:21 PM
Ah, yes. Hob. deest. "Not appearing in Hoboken". Good research. :)

8)

That's NJ's loss, for sure.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 19, 2016, 04:38:39 PM

Quote from: Ghost Sonata on November 19, 2016, 03:17:49 PM
That's NJ's loss, for sure.

Damn straight! ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 23, 2016, 09:41:26 AM

Whew, had to get off the big stage for a while, lots going on there. Decided to kick back this time and listen to some of Haydn's beautiful English Songs. Join me, you might like them bigly. :D

Canzonettas, well, that's a new one... (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2016/11/1794-the-year-part-4-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: ritter on November 28, 2016, 06:40:24 AM

Brought over from the "Top 5 Favourite Boulez Works" thread:

Quote from: ritter on November 28, 2016, 06:23:11 AM
I would have expected you to choose his recording of Haydn's Symphony No. 104 from Vienna... ;)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 28, 2016, 06:27:52 AM
Haven't heard it, although it sounds intriguing. Thanks. :)

8)

PS - the bootleg 9th recording is a rarity! 0:)

Boulez has been quoted as having said something to the effect that he found Haydn much more interesting than Mozart (whom he apparently found "trivial" >:( :o ). In a letter to Heinrich Strobel in the late fifties, he said that the only thing that he had in common with Mozart was the letter "z" in their respective surnames :D.

He did occasionally champion Haydn in his days at the helm of the NYPO , IIRC (I must look up the orchestra's database to check what he actually programmed).

Be that as it may, there's now quite a few Mozart recordings (mainly live) available conducted by the Frenchman, but precious little Haydn. The excpetion is this quite interesting set, issued by the Vienna Philharmonic's house lable (with haphazard distribition, I'm afraid):

[asin]B0034P538W[/asin]

The contents is this:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71xrgMO9UEL._SL1400_.jpg)

I'm not enough of a Haydnian to say how Boulez's take on the 104 comapers to other versions, but reviews are mostly favourable, and to have a giant of 20th century music meet a titan of the 18th century is interesting enough.

Cheers,

P.S.: That Beethoven Ninth looks really, really interesting. A rarity indeed! Is it anywhere to be found?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 28, 2016, 07:23:47 AM

Quote from: ritter on November 28, 2016, 06:40:24 AM

Be that as it may, there's now quite a few Mozart recordings (mainly live) available conducted by the Frenchman, but precious little Haydn. The excpetion is this quite interesting set, issued by the Vienna Philharmonic's house lable (with haphazard distribition, I'm afraid):

The contents is this:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71xrgMO9UEL._SL1400_.jpg)

I'm not enough of a Haydnian to say how Boulez's take on the 104 comapers to other versions, but reviews are mostly favourable, and to have a giant of 20th century music meet a titan of the 18th century is interesting enough.

That looked so!! promising... but I've found it rather a let-down. That wasn't a Vienna Philharmonic very interested in Haydn, by the sound of it... and no conductor really got much excitement out of them... though they certainly are quite different kinds of disappointing performances.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on November 29, 2016, 12:25:55 AM

I've been listening to the op.64 quartets recently (combining one of my new purchases with a sibling that has been sitting patiently on its own in my collection for years).

[asin]B0000013W3[/asin][asin]B0000013W4[/asin]

And... I don't know if it's me, or the performance, or the music, but I'm finding op.64/1 to be a bit of a disappointment, because of the lack of tempo variety. 1st movement, allegro moderato, 2nd movement, a menuet in the same key, allegretto ma non troppo. 3rd movement, allegretto scherzando. Things pick up slightly for the finale (Presto), but by then it was too late. I was unexpectedly bored.

Is this a poor performance? A widely perceived flaw in op.64/1? I'm not sure what to think, because I'm very unused to wishing a Haydn quartet being over and done with and all my other recordings thus far have also been the Kodaly Qt.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on November 29, 2016, 01:09:31 AM

It can be a bit of the problem in this particular piece (although I like it a lot), there is even a strong similarity of the themes of the first two movements, part of the problem is also that menuets are often played too slowly but it seems hard to deny that Haydn intended more unity than contrast in op.64/1. It does not apply to the other quartets in the opus, though.
And while I have not heard their recording of op. 64 I also found the Kodalys generally tending towards the dull side.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on November 29, 2016, 01:45:48 AM

The Kodalys undoubtedly tend towards the more refined/demure style of playing, but personally I'm perfectly happy with most of their performances (I have opp.64, 71, 74 and 76). A couple of their opuses have weaker reviews but so far I've stuck with the ones that are generally viewed favourably.

I did see one review somewhere that said they seemed to get better as they went through op.64, so perhaps op.64/1 is a relatively low point for them.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 29, 2016, 02:10:11 AM

Quote from: ørfeo on November 29, 2016, 01:45:48 AM
The Kodalys undoubtedly tend towards the more refined/demure style of playing, but personally I'm perfectly happy with most of their performances (I have opp.64, 71, 74 and 76). A couple of their opuses have weaker reviews but so far I've stuck with the ones that are generally viewed favourably.

I did see one review somewhere that said they seemed to get better as they went through op.64, so perhaps op.64/1 is a relatively low point for them.

The Kodaly's performances are charming - almost always - but their thick, warm, fuzzy sound (recorded and interpretatively) makes them lose a lot of detail and there's no sprightliness though plenty of quasi-symphonic pleasantry. I never dislike them when I listen, but they almost never fare well in direct comparison. The nearest to them, except in better sound and a little cleaner, is the Auryn Quartet, I find.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on November 29, 2016, 03:33:21 AM

The dark horse for op.64 is the pseudonymous "Caspar da Salo" quartet on Pilz and other cheapo labels. They don't offer much tempo contrast between the first movements of #1 either but overall they are very good and by skipping most repeats in the 3rd movement this one gets a nice intermezzo/scherzo character. Which it is, it does not work well as "slow" movement.

Interestingly, it would be possible to play the first three movements roughly at the same tempo:
quarter = quarter = eighth = ca. MM 140.
(The Caspar da Salo goes from ca. 130 in the first to 144 in the menuet and 152 (or rather 76 for the quarter) in the 3rd; the Festetics/Arcana is fastest in the first (ca. 144) and slower in the others (ca. 132).
I'd like someone to try half note (1) = dotted half (menuet), that is a rather leisurely first movement and the menuetto being/feeling the fastest of the first 3.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 01, 2016, 11:50:39 AM

I am perfectly happy with the Quatuor Mosaïques in the Op.64 (in all that I have heard them play, really).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 01, 2016, 12:52:05 PM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 01, 2016, 11:50:39 AM
I am perfectly happy with the Quatuor Mosaïques in the Op.64 (in all that I have heard them play, really).

Mosaïques & Festetics are both quite fine; this is one of Festetics best efforts in the series. It's true, the Kodaly's are somewhat subdued in Op 64, but the original complaint, that Op 64 #1 suffers from sameness, has never been an issue for me. Elsewhere, I have called this the perfect opus; I stand by that! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 01, 2016, 02:19:43 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 01, 2016, 12:52:05 PM
Mosaïques & Festetics are both quite fine; this is one of Festetics best efforts in the series. It's true, the Kodaly's are somewhat subdued in Op 64, but the original complaint, that Op 64 #1 suffers from sameness, has never been an issue for me. Elsewhere, I have called this the perfect opus; I stand by that! :)

Gurn & Karl - own both the above in bold for Op. 64 - I've also been collecting the London Haydn Quartet as Hyperion releases their Haydn SQ output - just added Op. 50, and looks like Op. 54/55 will be out in January - Op. 64 may be up next? I'm enjoying their performances - any other fans? Dave :)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-4LkqtfH/0/L/LondonHaydnSQ_Op54_55-L.png)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on December 02, 2016, 12:45:14 AM

I thought I had one disc of the Mosaiques op.64-recording but I cannot find it...
I have the more recent Festetics, there was also an older one by them on Quintana, sound not as good but in some pieces more lively. I think that the Festetics often tends to lack a little vigor and esprit but it's been a while I listened to their op.64. The discographical "problem" is that the "lark" op.64/5 is available in dozens of recordings, often by famous ensembles whereas the remainder of op.64 tends to get recorded mostly in "complete" projects.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 02, 2016, 05:11:06 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on December 02, 2016, 12:45:14 AM
I thought I had one disc of the Mosaiques op.64-recording but I cannot find it...
I have the more recent Festetics, there was also an older one by them on Quintana, sound not as good but in some pieces more lively. I think that the Festetics often tends to lack a little vigor and esprit but it's been a while I listened to their op.64. The discographical "problem" is that the "lark" op.64/5 is available in dozens of recordings, often by famous ensembles whereas the remainder of op.64 tends to get recorded mostly in "complete" projects.

I've got their older Op 33 on Quintana, it is not as neatly played as the later one, that is so. I had to laugh a little bit though, because previous criticisms I have read of Festetics is that they are TOO vigorous and spirited! For me, and of course it is just a personal preference, they are just right, down to the little imperfections one hears from time to time. Mosaiques, OTOH, and almost too perfect! Well, one man's sauce is another man's gravy.

BTW, I also quite enjoy the 'Caspar da Salo' disks, even though they are the epitome of post-Romanticism. For 99 cents each, they have lasted far longer with me than some others.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 02, 2016, 05:16:13 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on December 01, 2016, 02:19:43 PM
Gurn & Karl - own both the above in bold for Op. 64 - I've also been collecting the London Haydn Quartet as Hyperion releases their Haydn SQ output - just added Op. 50, and looks like Op. 54/55 will be out in January - Op. 64 may be up next? I'm enjoying their performances - any other fans? Dave :)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-4LkqtfH/0/L/LondonHaydnSQ_Op54_55-L.png)

Hey, Dave! Nice to see you again, you have been sort of laying low lately. I have all the LHQ disks to date, and have had some enjoyable exchanges with the first violin and the viola on Twitter. I thought their OP 9 & 17 disks were just a bit tight, so to speak, rather more like a recital than the sort of easy-going parlor music they were written to be. That is where the Festetics excel, IMO. But by Op 20 and beyond, they have hit it on the nose every time. I'm really looking forward to seeing them complete the series. I encourage everyone to buy these disks; Hyperion have shown us, with Salomon Quartet and Hanover Band, that they aren't afraid to pull the plug even on series which are well on the way to completion. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on December 02, 2016, 06:30:18 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 02, 2016, 05:16:13 AM
Hey, Dave! Nice to see you again, you have been sort of laying low lately. I have all the LHQ disks to date, and have had some enjoyable exchanges with the first violin and the viola on Twitter. I thought their OP 9 & 17 disks were just a bit tight, so to speak, rather more like a recital than the sort of easy-going parlor music they were written to be. That is where the Festetics excel, IMO. But by Op 20 and beyond, they have hit it on the nose every time. I'm really looking forward to seeing them complete the series. I encourage everyone to buy these disks; Hyperion have shown us, with Salomon Quartet and Hanover Band, that they aren't afraid to pull the plug even on series which are well on the way to completion. :-\

8)

Thanks Gurn - nice to have a plethora of excellent recordings of these works. I've not been buying much in the way of classical CDs lately - maybe I have enough? :o And have been frequenting my 'computer forums' more - but I'll come around again - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on December 03, 2016, 11:18:05 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 20, 2016, 10:14:40 AM
Depends on your interests. He is a very competent pianist, but these are the most often recorded sonatas, so nothing new there, lots of competition. I like it because he plays on an original 1795 Broadwood pianoforte with quite its own sound. If you don't already have 18 versions of these works (I do), this is as nice as any of them so it would make a nice 'keeper' for you.

8)

I think you're underestimating the interest of the playing in this Ludger Remy recording, I was really impressed by the combination of power and playfulness in the outer movements of 60.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 09, 2016, 06:25:40 AM

Time spent this week with the Tafelmusik symphonies mini-box has been a great occasion to focus in on a few of the symphonies (something I always mean to do, but manage only infrequently). The c minor symphony #52 is laser-sharp hot (as he freely mixed metaphors). So many of the textures are sparely linear, phrases traded off. The wind writing in the trio to the menuet (and the mildly-jokey repetitions), perfectly charming. The nervous hocket of the last movement . . . all the apparent effortlessness of the music, it's a musical Ferrari 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 09, 2016, 08:37:13 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 09, 2016, 06:25:40 AM
Time spent this week with the Tafelmusik symphonies mini-box has been a great occasion to focus in on a few of the symphonies (something I always mean to do, but manage only infrequently). The c minor symphony #52 is laser-sharp hot (as he freely mixed metaphors). So many of the textures are sparely linear, phrases traded off. The wind writing in the trio to the menuet (and the mildly-jokey repetitions), perfectly charming. The nervous hocket of the last movement . . . all the apparent effortlessness of the music, it's a musical Ferrari 8)

Indeed, I really like #52, it's all you say. Throughout his career, but most especially in that time, his minuet trios are fabulously unique, for me they are the high point of many of the symphonies, not least because they can be damned funny. Learning that was one of the benefits I derived from writing about them. :)

8)

PS - That Tafelmusik box is the cat's ass! ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 18, 2016, 10:52:59 AM

The almost unknown side of Haydn (or any composer) is the time spent out of the spotlight. Haydn spent the last half of 1794 gratifying peoples' curiosity about him, and his own about everything! See what I mean...

Talking my way across England! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2016/12/1794-the-year-part-6.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on December 18, 2016, 12:04:51 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 18, 2016, 10:52:59 AM
The almost unknown side of Haydn (or any composer) is the time spent out of the spotlight. Haydn spent the last half of 1794 gratifying peoples' curiosity about him, and his own about everything! See what I mean...

Talking my way across England! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2016/12/1794-the-year-part-6.html)

Splendid! Thank you!

Browsing my Haydn library it turned out I have two recordings of the Abingdon Trios, which I never listened to. ;D

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2004/Jun04/Haydn_Londontrios_9999202.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61FwIqryLtL.jpg)

The second one replaces one of the flutes with the violin but the line up is impressive.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 18, 2016, 02:05:31 PM

I'm on a one-a-day symphony disc tour of the Hogwood box.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 18, 2016, 02:08:27 PM

Quote from: Florestan on December 18, 2016, 12:04:51 PM
Splendid! Thank you!

Browsing my Haydn library it turned out I have two recordings of the Abingdon Trios, which I never listened to. ;D

(http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2004/Jun04/Haydn_Londontrios_9999202.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61FwIqryLtL.jpg)

The second one replaces one of the flutes with the violin but the line up is impressive.

You're welcome. Glad you enjoyed.

I have both of those disks, the old guys were my first version. As you say, nicely played even though they changed the instruments. I doubt Haydn would have objected, really. The Camerata Köln is my first PI version, and still hard to beat. That's a group that can really toot a flute!! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 18, 2016, 02:09:45 PM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 18, 2016, 02:05:31 PM
I'm on a one-a-day symphony disc tour of the Hogwood box.

A nice, measured pace, I like it, Karl. Where might you be now? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 18, 2016, 02:15:26 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 18, 2016, 02:09:45 PM
A nice, measured pace, I like it, Karl. Where might you be now? :)

8)

disc 12: nos. 30 in C, Alleluja, 31 in D, Hornsignal, and 34 in D

Love this stuff!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 18, 2016, 02:31:35 PM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 18, 2016, 02:15:26 PM
disc 12: nos. 30 in C, Alleluja, 31 in D, Hornsignal, and 34 in D

Love this stuff!

That's a good one! I think 34 is underrated, it is unique in its way. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on December 18, 2016, 08:37:50 PM

I'm not quite keeping one-a-day pace. The last one I listened to was Symphony No.17 which is on disc 5.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 19, 2016, 03:40:23 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 18, 2016, 02:31:35 PM
That's a good one! I think 34 is underrated, it is unique in its way. :)

8)

It stands out from a typographic standpoint, at the very least: In English, it's in D Major, but in Italian, in d minor 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 19, 2016, 03:58:54 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 18, 2016, 02:31:35 PM
That's a good one! I think 34 is underrated, it is unique in its way. :)

8)

The finale is possibly the most purely cheerful jig I've ever heard in classical music.

Quote from: ørfeo on December 18, 2016, 08:37:50 PM
I'm not quite keeping one-a-day pace. The last one I listened to was Symphony No.17 which is on disc 5.

We each work at our own pace, and why not?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 19, 2016, 04:44:53 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 19, 2016, 03:40:23 AM
It stands out from a typographic standpoint, at the very least: In English, it's in D Major, but in Italian, in d minor 8)

It's in both, the first and second are in minor, the finale doesn't even get within stone throwing distance of minor, it is a very solid D major. It has been speculated that he added a mismatched finale that he had available to a different opening, but to me, that is the 19th century thinking out loud. Look at works like #49, also the first movements in minor , the finale in major. The oddity here is that major and minor are the same tonic, something which he only did one other time in a symphony, and much later on (one of the 80's, IIRC). :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 21, 2016, 05:01:43 AM

#59 (Fire) is terrific, especially in the Hogwood box.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 21, 2016, 08:24:20 AM

Gurn -

in what Haydn works (the all-too obvious 33/2 apart), would you say does Haydn's brand of wit and humor show best? When is he messing with us most coyly?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 21, 2016, 10:17:53 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on December 21, 2016, 08:24:20 AM
Gurn -

in what Haydn works (the all-too obvious 33/2 apart), would you say does Haydn's brand of wit and humor show best? When is he messing with us most coyly?

Gosh, Jens, that's a big question. Symphonies 90 & 94 are the bigger ones to me, but there are many which I don't know enough about theory to even get or recognize. 93's 'Great Bassoon Fart' is obvious, but even more so if you recognize that the entire movement is part of the joke, the fart is just the punchline. His contemporaries considered the last movement of 'Farewell' to be a joke at the Prince's expense, but after the 18th century, I bet no one gets it that way any more.

To me, anyone who isn't an accomplished musician, or at least very well versed in theory, probably won't get most of them. He used to do things like write the entire bass line on one staff and change the clef on the fly, so to speak, just to mess with the players. Now that's funny, but what listener would ever know about it? That was a symphony in the high 40's or low 50's, I'll look it up tonight and post it. EDIT: It is the minuet of Symphony #51

Gretchen Wheelock wrote a whole book about it called, IIRC, Haydn's Ingenious Jesting with Art where she discusses a great many of these. Lots of false recapitulations and such, faux endings, wrong keys... it's a good book, I've read it twice and still have a ways to go before getting things figured out. :)

Anyone else have any ideas on this topic? I find it very interesting.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on December 22, 2016, 12:10:38 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 21, 2016, 10:17:53 AM
Gosh, Jens, that's a big question. Symphonies 90 & 94 are the bigger ones to me, but there are many which I don't know enough about theory to even get or recognize. 93's 'Great Bassoon Fart' is obvious, but even more so if you recognize that the entire movement is part of the joke, the fart is just the punchline. His contemporaries considered the last movement of 'Farewell' to be a joke at the Prince's expense, but after the 18th century, I bet no one gets it that way any more.

To me, anyone who isn't an accomplished musician, or at least very well versed in theory, probably won't get most of them. He used to do things like write the entire bass line on one staff and change the clef on the fly, so to speak, just to mess with the players. Now that's funny, but what listener would ever know about it? That was a symphony in the high 40's or low 50's, I'll look it up tonight and post it. EDIT: It is the minuet of Symphony #51

Gretchen Wheelock wrote a whole book about it called, IIRC, Haydn's Ingenious Jesting with Art where she discusses a great many of these. Lots of false recapitulations and such, faux endings, wrong keys... it's a good book, I've read it twice and still have a ways to go before getting things figured out. :)

Anyone else have any ideas on this topic? I find it very interesting.

8)

Thanks so much for this first answer. I suppose that op.33/2 is more 'humor' or 'wit' than either Surprise and definitely op. 93 (man, I LOVED that one as a kid; but it's a musical whoopie-cushion and irreverent, not so much wit, methinks). 'Farewell' probably wasn't funny at the time, nor meant to be, but risky business that -- according to lore -- didn't backfire, and only just, because the people in charge had enough of a sense of humor. My harpsichordist uncle played it once, as a student (playing the bassoon, I reckon; probably not the oboe -- his usual secondary instrument was the cor anglais), in an amphitheater. In lieu of proper seats, they were seated, in pairs, on planks that were placed on crates. The instrumentalists left, in pairs, and so far, so good, but his crate-mate stopped playing well before him and got up, and my uncle found himself on his bum, as the plank, now no longer held down on the other side of the crate, flung up there and down underneath him.

The Sy.51 story is cute; Wheelock's book sadly out of print (though the library may have it here) ... and then again, I've heard it said about that book that it's strange how a book so incredibly humorless and with such a graceless writing style should have taken the gracefully funny Haydn as its subject. Do you find that bearing out?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on December 22, 2016, 01:10:55 AM

There are lots of "little" things. E.g. not a joke but the allusion to the farewell symphony's main theme in the first movemet of "la Reine" was supposedly done because the #45 had been so popular in Paris. Then there are things that are funny because of sound/register/changes, e.g. the "ticking" in the "clock" movement" alternating between bassoon and flute (or violin in high register) or being pounded out by the whole orchestra. I also find the beginning of the late C major piano sonata funny, without being able to explain why. It's like a comical figure (Falstaff or so) entering a stage in full swagger.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2016, 04:55:22 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on December 22, 2016, 12:10:38 AM
Thanks so much for this first answer. I suppose that op.33/2 is more 'humor' or 'wit' than either Surprise and definitely op. 93 (man, I LOVED that one as a kid; but it's a musical whoopie-cushion and irreverent, not so much wit, methinks). 'Farewell' probably wasn't funny at the time, nor meant to be, but risky business that -- according to lore -- didn't backfire, and only just, because the people in charge had enough of a sense of humor. My harpsichordist uncle played it once, as a student (playing the bassoon, I reckon; probably not the oboe -- his usual secondary instrument was the cor anglais), in an amphitheater. In lieu of proper seats, they were seated, in pairs, on planks that were placed on crates. The instrumentalists left, in pairs, and so far, so good, but his crate-mate stopped playing well before him and got up, and my uncle found himself on his bum, as the plank, now no longer held down on the other side of the crate, flung up there and down underneath him.

The Sy.51 story is cute; Wheelock's book sadly out of print (though the library may have it here) ... and then again, I've heard it said about that book that it's strange how a book so incredibly humorless and with such a graceless writing style should have taken the gracefully funny Haydn as its subject. Do you find that bearing out?

This is my own opinion, based on several years of reading little else. I am NOT humorless, despite all that. :D There are definitely 2 sides to Haydn, the humorist. One of them is, as you say, gracefully funny and with a sense of wit which is highly polished and often subtle. But the flip side of the coin is the man who, with his little buddy Mozart, could laugh at nearly any level of humor, whether it was subtle or not. Frankly, I see Haydn choking to avoid laughing during the great bassoon fart joke. He is said by contemporaries to have laughed out loud whenever one of his musical jokes was played, so clearly he was into the joking aspect in a big way. His early projects writing the stage music for Hanswurst musicals (and later the marionette opera Die Feuersbrunst) could not have fallen into better hands, because like all Viennese of the time, including his Prince, he loved that stuff, and believe me, it could be coarse! :o

Well, Wheelock is an academic, writing for academics. I have a big bunch of books which fall into that category. Not a single one of them is funny, even those which write about humor. Wheelock even finds it necessary to define 'funny', which turns out to be a pretty good idea since the 18th century idea of funny didn't involve Steve Martin even a little bit. But yes, it is a hard read. Highly informative though, and so worth wading through if you want nothing but facts and perspective. I didn't read it for pleasure, but I got pleasure from reading it, if that makes sense. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 22, 2016, 05:10:57 AM

This passage, dealing with Haydn's symphonies ending up in Russia via Paris, is a contemporary description of Symphony #45 and the stories that were going around about it at the time. Note the part about the audience and orchestra reaction...

I have the honor to send you the twelve most beautiful symphonies for full orchestra that I could find. Among the others by Haydn, there is one, No. 16 (Siebert's number), that is the most amusing thing that can be imaged. The last movement of this symphony begins normally with the whole orchestra, but it does not end the same way, for one sees all the musicians leave one after another, until the first violin finds himself all alone to finish the symphony. The audience is astonished to see just one person in the orchestra. This joke made the audience laugh heartily when we played it at the Concert Spirituel. Here is the origin of this symphony, for Monsieur Le Comte really needs to know it:

Haydn was music director of Prince Stérazie [sic – (Esterházy)], and one day this prince told him that he had become tired of music and that consequently he wanted to dismiss all the musicians, keeping only Haydn. Thus the prince charged him with announcing to his colleagues the sad news. As a man of genius, Haydn wanted to do this with a dramatic act. So he conceived of this symphony, to be performed at the orchestra's last concert, as the means by which the musicians would be dismissed. The prince, surprised to see all the musicians leave until only the first violin remained at the end of the symphony, asked what it meant. Haydn responded: "Did you not order me to dismiss all the players? Well, they obeyed your orders." This symphonic joke pleased the prince so much that he kept his orchestra.

Variations of this same story were published in the Mercure de France in 1784, when the symphony was originally performed. Being a cellist who had already vacated the stage by then, Hivart may not have known it was actually 2 violins left at the end. (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/04/1786-the-music-part-1-.html)

I got this story from a musicologist, John Rice, and I asked him about it. He didn't say a whole lot, just led me to believe that it would have been very typical of the Parisians, Viennese or Londoners to find that part to be a big joke at the Prince's expense, one which he got and shared in. If my memory serves, it was not until Griesinger's description came out, around 1810, that there came an element of pathos to it, feeling sorry for the poor musicians etc. I think that the fact that Haydn meant it as a joke, and the Prince took it as one, is the reason that he capitulated and let everyone go home for the season.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 23, 2016, 06:25:50 AM

Probably said this before, but the Adagio of the Lamentatione is exquisite.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 23, 2016, 06:44:55 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 23, 2016, 06:25:50 AM
Probably said this before, but the Adagio of the Lamentatione is exquisite.

Even if you did, it bears repeating. Whatever else can (and is) said about Haydn's music, one common thread is that he wrote the most beautiful slow movements of any composer I know. Someone should highlight those on record. It could be called "Adagio" or something... ;) :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 23, 2016, 06:48:14 AM

(* chortle *)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on December 24, 2016, 03:40:07 PM

Finished a traversal of this tonight
[asin]B0000041LO[/asin]
As I said in the WAYLT thread, the only flaw is not a flaw: it's not PI.
A great cycle, and I think Papa would approve of it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 24, 2016, 04:05:28 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 24, 2016, 03:40:07 PM
Finished a traversal of this tonight
[asin]B0000041LO[/asin]
As I said in the WAYLT thread, the only flaw is not a flaw: it's not PI.
A great cycle, and I think Papa would approve of it.

Yes, that was my first piano trio experience and it sold me on Haydn's trios. Well, I have the BAT in every important piano trio they ever recorded, and everything they touched was golden. I agree with your estimation of the 'flaw': for the concert hall where it is played today, it is certainly not a flaw.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on January 01, 2017, 03:54:35 PM

CC on a conversation from New Releases:

(http://b2b.naxosusa.com/Images/BackCovers/881488160888.jpg)

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on January 01, 2017, 03:50:01 PM
6, 7, 8 were recorded in March 2014, Fey conducting (before his accident). 35, 46, 51 were recorded in June 2016, no conductor listed, but Benjamin Spillner credited as Concertmeister. A local boy, Timo Jouko Herrmann, is conducting the next scheduled concert, one of only two on the calendar this year.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on January 04, 2017, 09:30:36 PM

Quote from: Brian on January 01, 2017, 03:54:35 PM
CC on a conversation from New Releases:

(http://b2b.naxosusa.com/Images/BackCovers/881488160888.jpg)

A sad state of affairs, and very frustrating that it is impossible to get any information on Fey's condition. I guess at this point all hope that he will return is lost.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on January 04, 2017, 09:37:15 PM

Today, listened to Opus 76 No 1 (String Quartet in G) twice.

[asin]B001QBXFTA[/asin]

[asin]B00NB8L0E8[/asin]

I enjoyed both. The outer movements were particularly engaging. Although I am usually an enthusiast for period instrument performance, the difference in timbre is not as noticeable to me for a string quartet as when a keyboard or wind instruments are involved. As expected, the Aeolian was a bit more graceful, the Festetics a bit more spirited. One nice thing about the Festetics set is that the first and second violins are seated left and right. The separation makes it possible to hear them distinctly, compared with the conventional seating arrangement where first and second violins are both seated on the listeners left. Sadly, the Festetics set, which I got only a year or so ago, is now nla, apparently.

I think I will go through the Op 76 quartets using this dual method.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 05, 2017, 04:40:45 PM

Quote from: Scarpia on January 04, 2017, 09:37:15 PM
Today, listened to Opus 76 No 1 (String Quartet in G) twice.

[asin]B001QBXFTA[/asin]

[asin]B00NB8L0E8[/asin]

I enjoyed both. The outer movements were particularly engaging. Although I am usually an enthusiast for period instrument performance, the difference in timbre is not as noticeable to me for a string quartet as when a keyboard or wind instruments are involved. As expected, the Aeolian was a bit more graceful, the Festetics a bit more spirited. One nice thing about the Festetics set is that the first and second violins are seated left and right. The separation makes it possible to hear them distinctly, compared with the conventional seating arrangement where first and second violins are both seated on the listeners left. Sadly, the Festetics set, which I got only a year or so ago, is now nla, apparently.

I think I will go through the Op 76 quartets using this dual method.

The Festetics is, overall, my favorite set. The 'bit more spirited' well describes their attraction for me. YMMV. Really, that set you have pictured was probably the last gasp; it is the 3rd release of them, unheard of for Arcana!! They were originally released in chubby jewel boxes boxes back in the late '90's, I have three of those. Then in digipaks for the 2009 Haydn Year, I have 6 of those. Finally the big box, which I don't have, but rather wish I had picked up as a collector's item.

If they had only done Op 1 & 2, which have never been done on PI, BTW, they come by far the closest to being a full set. No 7 Last Words either. :-\ FWIW, my favorite PI Op 76 is the Kuijken Quartet on Denon. Next time you are shopping in Tokyo... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on January 05, 2017, 05:09:01 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 05, 2017, 04:40:45 PM
If they had only done Op 1 & 2, which have never been done on PI, BTW, they come by far the closest to being a full set. No 7 Last Words either. :-\ FWIW, my favorite PI Op 76 is the Kuijken Quartet on Denon. Next time you are shopping in Tokyo... :)

8)

About "The Last Seven Words"- It's true they didn't record it on Arcana, but on Harmonia Mundi France. Occasionally some copy is sold via eBay, at least that's the way I got my copy. 8)

Picture from eBay:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 05, 2017, 05:13:32 PM

Quote from: Gordo on January 05, 2017, 05:09:01 PM
About "The Last Seven Words"- It's true they didn't record it on Arcana, but on Harmonia Mundi France. Occasionally some copy is sold via eBay, at least that's the way I got my copy. 8)

Picture from eBay:

Ah yes, I have Op 33 and 77 in that series. I haven't seen 7 Last Words, although it doesn't worry me, I don't consider them "string quartets" but rather "a suite for string quartet". Of course, that said, I would like to find that box. And I will. :D Thanks for the info, Gordo!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 07, 2017, 08:30:26 AM

If you listen to Haydn's keyboard sonatas, you hear a striking difference between the last 3 and the ones which came before. It is more than just the normal growth of his skills, it is a change in apparent philosophy for piano music. Since 1794 produced his last 3 sonatas, I took a look at this phenomenon this time.

The London Pianoforte School (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2017/01/1794-the-year-part-7-.html)

Check it out! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on January 07, 2017, 11:26:48 PM

To rewind back just a few decades... As I've been setting out on the current listening thread, today I was finally exposed to Symphonies 6 through 8. Morning, noon and evening.

[asin]B009LNI0T0[/asin]

And my goodness, I had no idea. They are so good, and also so different to the other symphonies I've been listening to in the Hogwood box. Well, the first two in particular. Symphony No.8 didn't startle me quite as much, although maybe by then I'd got used to the style. They really do often sound closer to Vivaldi concertos (Four Seasons being the obvious comparator) than to typical "classical" symphonies. So many solo parts.

I gather from the original notes to the Hogwood series, supplied to me by Gurn (thank you again!) that it wasn't uncommon at the time to have these sorts of extra-musical associations in symphonies. But still, from the perspective of history where we think of that as something from the Baroque, it really has been a bit startling in the nicest possible way to hear similar painting of moods and scenes in a symphony.

And as the same notes point out, there's some precedent here for Beethoven's "Pastoral" Symphony.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 08, 2017, 06:40:35 AM

Quote from: ørfeo on January 07, 2017, 11:26:48 PM
To rewind back just a few decades... As I've been setting out on the current listening thread, today I was finally exposed to Symphonies 6 through 8. Morning, noon and evening.

[asin]B009LNI0T0[/asin]

And my goodness, I had no idea. They are so good, and also so different to the other symphonies I've been listening to in the Hogwood box. Well, the first two in particular. Symphony No.8 didn't startle me quite as much, although maybe by then I'd got used to the style. They really do often sound closer to Vivaldi concertos (Four Seasons being the obvious comparator) than to typical "classical" symphonies. So many solo parts.

I gather from the original notes to the Hogwood series, supplied to me by Gurn (thank you again!) that it wasn't uncommon at the time to have these sorts of extra-musical associations in symphonies. But still, from the perspective of history where we think of that as something from the Baroque, it really has been a bit startling in the nicest possible way to hear similar painting of moods and scenes in a symphony.

And as the same notes point out, there's some precedent here for Beethoven's "Pastoral" Symphony.

That's great! I didn't realize you hadn't heard those yet. My own experience is the opposite; they were the first symphonies I heard that were older than the Paris ones, and my first thought was that 'geez, even as early as #6 (from #82) Haydn already had his own recognizable style'. And indeed, even with all the tone painting that is there, and the wonderful soloistic parts, you hardly could think of who else could have written those symphonies than Haydn.

As far as the tone painting idea goes when we move into the 19th century, I haven't done a lot yet (I'm still in 1794), but I have seen several contemporary disparagements over the use of them in the Creation and the Seasons, and yet when Beethoven emulated the idea in Symphony #6, which was really the end of a long line of works, rather more than the beginning, it was well-received. Puzzling. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on January 08, 2017, 07:55:50 AM

The tone-painting in the "day times" symphonies is rather mild, for me the virtuoso concertante elements stick out more. And Haydn has a few more pieces with similar solos in the early/mid 1760s, e.g. #13 and #31 although hardly ever as pronounced and combined with programs as in 6-8. There was a cycle on the seasons or even all the months by Haydn's predecessor Werner. 6-8 really seem to stick out in quality among the first 25 or so, although as always named pieces are given unproportional prominence and leave similarly good ones in the shade.

Overall, I think tone-painting was usually seen as occassionally acceptable, unless it became too gimmicky. Beethoven himself said about the Pastoral "Mehr Ausdruck der Empfindung als Malerei" (more expression of feeling than painting) and the piece *does* somewhat stick out in his oeuvre, even if there might be found a little programmatic or "painting" music in a few other pieces, like the Les adieux sonata.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on January 11, 2017, 09:22:46 AM

Moved on to the quartet Op 76, No 2, again listening to Festetics and Aeolian in tandem. I am attracted to this quartet because it is in minor key. I find myself disappointed that minor key works are scarce in the classical period (although even major key works minor keys tend to be prominent in the middle movements). As in the previous work, I find both the Festetics and Aeolian equally satisfying, bring out the "spirited" vs "graceful" characteristics of the work.

A bit daunting that Haydn wrote so many. With enough quartets to fill 22 CDs, will I ever know Haydn's quartets the way I know each of Mozart's 10 mature quartets?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 11, 2017, 09:26:51 AM

Quote from: Scarpia on January 11, 2017, 09:22:46 AM
A bit daunting that Haydn wrote so many. With enough quartets to fill 22 CDs, will I ever know Haydn's quartets the way I know each of Mozart's 10 mature quartets?

That is an ambition! Not an impossibility, but a worthy ambition.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 11, 2017, 11:13:22 AM

Quote from: Scarpia on January 11, 2017, 09:22:46 AM
Moved on to the quartet Op 76, No 2, again listening to Festetics and Aeolian in tandem. I am attracted to this quartet because it is in minor key. I find myself disappointed that minor key works are scarce in the classical period (although even major key works minor keys tend to be prominent in the middle movements). As in the previous work, I find both the Festetics and Aeolian equally satisfying, bring out the "spirited" vs "graceful" characteristics of the work.

A bit daunting that Haydn wrote so many. With enough quartets to fill 22 CDs, will I ever know Haydn's quartets the way I know each of Mozart's 10 mature quartets?

Minor keys weren't considered particularly emotionally special in the 18th century like they were to the Romantics. You can note that almost every single piece that opens in the minor nonetheless ends in the Major. It was a cultural imperative that works end on a happy note; at least, it was in Vienna. That's why you see Karl's Symphony #34 he was talking about above, the first 2 movements are in d minor but the Finale is in D Major.

Not just the quartets; 22 disks worth of them, another 33 of symphonies, 20 of operas, 9 of keyboard trios, 6 of string trios, a dozen or so of divertimentos, another dozen of keyboard sonatas, 21 baryton trios, songs, masses, oratorios... 8+ years and I am still just scratching the surface! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on January 11, 2017, 11:38:07 AM

Quote from: Scarpia on January 11, 2017, 09:22:46 AM
A bit daunting that Haydn wrote so many. With enough quartets to fill 22 CDs, will I ever know Haydn's quartets the way I know each of Mozart's 10 mature quartets?

Maybe not. I think I know most of Haydn's much better than Mozart's 11 early quartets ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 11, 2017, 11:51:26 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on January 11, 2017, 11:38:07 AM
Maybe not. I think I know most of Haydn's much better than Mozart's 11 early quartets ;)

:D Yep. I only know the d minor to any degree, even though I have two sets of them. Thanks for the reminder though. ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on January 11, 2017, 12:51:29 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 11, 2017, 11:13:22 AM
Minor keys weren't considered particularly emotionally special in the 18th century like they were to the Romantics. You can note that almost every single piece that opens in the minor nonetheless ends in the Major. It was a cultural imperative that works end on a happy note; at least, it was in Vienna. That's why you see Karl's Symphony #34 he was talking about above, the first 2 movements are in d minor but the Finale is in D Major.

It is not that I regard minor-key works as "sad," but more complex, since there is the ambiguity of the 6th and 7th scale degrees to play with.

Quote
Not just the quartets; 22 disks worth of them, another 33 of symphonies, 20 of operas, 9 of keyboard trios, 6 of string trios, a dozen or so of divertimentos, another dozen of keyboard sonatas, 21 baryton trios, songs, masses, oratorios... 8+ years and I am still just scratching the surface! :D

8)

Now, don't depress me. These days I normally only have time to listen to a work one movement per day.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 11, 2017, 01:02:52 PM

Quote from: Scarpia on January 11, 2017, 12:51:29 PM
It is not that I regard minor-key works as "sad," but more complex, since there is the ambiguity of the 6th and 7th scale degrees to play with.

Now, don't depress me. These days I normally only have time to listen to a work one movement per day.

No, it's true, you may not regard them as sad or depressing, I know I don't. But the 19th century certainly did, and that goes a long way to shaping many people's perspective. All you have to do is read an older analysis of Mozart's g minor quintet to know what I mean! ::) Somewhere I read a quote from Mozart about just that thing, the extra complexity suited his creative.

I really think this is why a lot of people tend to pass by really prolific composers. My choice was to make a long-term commitment instead. The option is to compartmentalize, pick a specialty and go with it, which seems to be what you are doing. Sounds good to me! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 11, 2017, 01:47:21 PM

Focus! That's the ticket.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on January 12, 2017, 01:43:33 AM

Together with the symphonies, for me the string quartets as a whole are the most important body of work.

This is not to deny that there are a few pieces in the other genres, like among the late masses, the piano trios and sonatas etc. that are more important than certain quartets or symphonies. But I consider basically all quartets from and including op.9 major works of both Haydn and the string quartet genre and I would not say this about quite a few of the earlyish piano sonatas. As it is difficult and probably moot to talk about the relative quality, a case can be made that the quartets seem to have been more systematically written at certain points in Haydn's career and development than anything else (again, this is also true of a few pieces in other genres, e.g. the Paris symphonies).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 21, 2017, 06:04:41 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on January 12, 2017, 01:43:33 AM
Together with the symphonies, for me the string quartets as a whole are the most important body of work.

This is not to deny that there are a few pieces in the other genres, like among the late masses, the piano trios and sonatas etc. that are more important than certain quartets or symphonies. But I consider basically all quartets from and including op.9 major works of both Haydn and the string quartet genre and I would not say this about quite a few of the earlyish piano sonatas. As it is difficult and probably moot to talk about the relative quality, a case can be made that the quartets seem to have been more systematically written at certain points in Haydn's career and development than anything else (again, this is also true of a few pieces in other genres, e.g. the Paris symphonies).

The general consensus since Donald Tovey's time is that everything from Opus 20 forward was merely a different form of masterpiece. This is not to deny that Haydn learned new tricks in later years (you can safely interpret that as 'developed new ideas'), but as relative works to their time, they are each equally over and above whatever else is out there. There is no doubt in MY mind that they are his greatest contribution to music, but then, I prefer chamber music above all else. If I was an orchestral fan, then the symphonies would have higher stature. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 22, 2017, 01:47:05 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 11, 2017, 11:13:22 AM
21 baryton trios

You mean 126, right? :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on January 22, 2017, 02:07:13 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 22, 2017, 01:47:05 AM
You mean 126, right? :D

Gurn was talking about the number of CD's, not works... 126 CD's of baryton trios would really be something. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 22, 2017, 02:28:41 AM

Quote from: North Star on January 22, 2017, 02:07:13 AM
Gurn was talking about the number of CD's, not works... 126 CD's of baryton trios would really be something. :D

Yes, my bad, I didn't read the whole thing.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2017, 06:06:00 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 22, 2017, 01:47:05 AM
You mean 126, right? :D

Quote from: North Star on January 22, 2017, 02:07:13 AM
Gurn was talking about the number of CD's, not works... 126 CD's of baryton trios would really be something. :D

21 CD's of any genre is a pretty good chunk. I am curious if anyone, even those who have got the set, has listened to the entire thing (except me, of course). It is uniformly good, but occasionally great. I can't think how he managed to keep his own interest level up across such a span of works. Did he ever discuss with Weigl, his cellist for these works, or even with the Prince "what next, lads?". They are no oeuvre to match the string quartets, or the symphonies for that matter, but so few other things are... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 22, 2017, 06:28:40 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2017, 06:06:00 AM
I am curious if anyone, even those who have got the set, has listened to the entire thing (except me, of course).

I have the entire Brilliant Edition but have not listened to one single baryton CD yet. ::)

What I have listened to instead is this:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51GfKrZLpYL._SX355_.jpg)

which I highly recommend.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2017, 06:46:32 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 22, 2017, 06:28:40 AM
I have the entire Brilliant Edition but have not listened to one single baryton CD yet. ::)

What I have listened to instead is this:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51GfKrZLpYL._SX355_.jpg)

which I highly recommend.

Yes, I streamed that disk once and enjoyed it too, although it wasn't available over here for sale at the time. I wanted to hear the Tomasini.

If you would like to listen to some of that without hurting yourself, I recommend the 2 disks of Octets. Smashing good music, and they are joined by Piccolo Concerto Wien and some truly great hornists. It is only nominally baryton music, although you can clearly hear the baryton, it is really horn music. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on January 22, 2017, 08:31:22 AM

I only have about two anthology discs with baryton trios (one on cpo with Geringas, the other one actually with string trio arrangements (i.e. without a baryton) on alpha), and two containing some of the octets (one volume with Huss and the "deLirium" disc with Quatuor Mosaiques and others) and decided that this is enough for now. I might get the second Huss disc eventually for two missing octets or quintets or so, but I am pretty sure that I am not going to listen to 21 discs of trios. (Similar arguments apply to the Scottish/Irish/etc. folksongs, except that I ended up with about 5 discs of them.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 24, 2017, 04:23:38 AM

From Playing Before the Lord: The Life and Work of Joseph Haydn, by Calvin Stapert:

As early as 1768, Johann Adam Hiller had written that Haydn's music was a "curious mixture of the noble and the common, the serious and the comic, which so often occurs in one of the same movement."

Who'd have thought that Haydn's true heir was Mahler. :D :D :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 24, 2017, 06:40:36 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 24, 2017, 04:23:38 AM
From Playing Before the Lord: The Life and Work of Joseph Haydn, by Calvin Stapert:

As early as 1768, Johann Adam Hiller had written that Haydn's music was a "curious mixture of the noble and the common, the serious and the comic, which so often occurs in one of the same movement."

Who'd have thought that Haydn's true heir was Mahler. :D :D :D

Quick note, on my way to a meeting: that's a very good book, I quite enjoy it. The point Stapert is making there, maybe not surprisingly, is exactly the very thing which garnered Haydn the most criticism in his lifetime. The North German critics, Hiller being one of the milder ones, savaged him over it, and what resistance there was in Vienna, from the likes of Joseph II and his coterie, stemmed from that also. And yet, today this is the attraction of his music for many of us. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 24, 2017, 06:42:34 AM

Ahead of his time!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on January 24, 2017, 07:44:13 AM

I recall to have read about the hypothesis that Haydn included three learned fugues (with particular effect like inversion etc.) in op.20 because some earlier pieces had been criticized for taking too many liberties and a too folksy style, so he wanted to demonstrate that he did not lack such skills.
(Admittedly, I don't quite understand how the "North Germans" could accept CPE Bach as their leading composer but become irritated by early Haydn...)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 24, 2017, 08:17:46 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on January 24, 2017, 07:44:13 AM
I recall to have read about the hypothesis that Haydn included three learned fugues (with particular effect like inversion etc.) in op.20 because some earlier pieces had been criticized for taking too many liberties and a too folksy style, so he wanted to demonstrate that he did not lack such skills.
(Admittedly, I don't quite understand how the "North Germans" could accept CPE Bach as their leading composer but become irritated by early Haydn...)

Family ties . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 24, 2017, 08:37:21 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on January 24, 2017, 07:44:13 AM
I recall to have read about the hypothesis that Haydn included three learned fugues (with particular effect like inversion etc.) in op.20 because some earlier pieces had been criticized for taking too many liberties and a too folksy style, so he wanted to demonstrate that he did not lack such skills.
(Admittedly, I don't quite understand how the "North Germans" could accept CPE Bach as their leading composer but become irritated by early Haydn...)

Yes, this is true. He made it very difficult to criticize him for 'lack of learnedness' which they very much did ("as for rules, he knows nothing of them..."). The difference between Haydn and CPE Bach, can be summed up in one word, which you know better than most of us, since it is German: Affektenlehre. CPE Bach apparently didn't mix 2 different Affekte in one piece. Haydn mixed them in any 1 movement if he felt like it. They took this as a huge offense to their sensibility. It simply wasn't done. It is as important, or more important, than the 'rules' thing mentioned above.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 24, 2017, 07:26:56 PM

Reissue alert
[asin]B01MTUQZ28[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 25, 2017, 03:15:30 AM

Splendid.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 27, 2017, 11:57:46 AM

1795 was not 'business as usual', there were some surprises for Haydn, like Salomon bowing out. Salomon!! Well, he did still have a job, and some new playmates too. Thought you might like to meet a couple of them. :)

All my rowdy friends... (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2017/01/1795-the-year-part-1-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 27, 2017, 04:50:30 PM

Hyperion's email announcing its February releases came today. Among other things, the next installment of the LHQ series.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 27, 2017, 04:56:06 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 27, 2017, 04:50:30 PM
Hyperion's email announcing its February releases came today. Among other things, the next installment of the LHQ series.

Great, that can only be a good thing. I'm guessing it will be the Op 54/55 pair if they stick to form. :)

On that same note, disk 3 of the Handel & Haydn Society set with Symphonies 6, 7 & 8, the 3 violin concerti and the first 3 Paris symphonies, evenly divided, should be released tomorrow. Already has been in some places. The first 2 disks are excellent, looking forward to this Symphony #8 & 84 plus VC in A. Also wondering what they will pair with the remainder of the Paris set... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on January 27, 2017, 05:22:43 PM

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61v0sARux9L._SX455_.jpg)

By some stroke of luck, I found a sealed copy of this set today in a local used store. It appears that it is out of print, for only one or two amazon sellers offer it, for $350 - $400 new. I got it for $100. I almost didn't buy it, as space is limited in me and my girlfriend's apartment. Plus, I already have the complete Tatrai set and the Pro Arte and Mosaïques incomplete sets, but after reading Gurn and Que's convincing praise in this thread, I had to grab it! I plan to start listening to it this Sunday, when I will have the apartment to myself.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 27, 2017, 05:29:04 PM

Quote from: George on January 27, 2017, 05:22:43 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61v0sARux9L._SX455_.jpg)

By some stroke of luck, I found a sealed copy of this set today in a local used store. It appears that it is out of print, for only one or two amazon sellers offer it, for $350 - $400 new. I got it for $100. I almost didn't buy it, as space is limited in me and my girlfriend's apartment. Plus, I already have the complete Tatrai set and the Pro Arte and Mosaïques incomplete sets, but after reading Gurn and Que's convincing praise in this thread, I had to grab it! I plan to start listening to it this Sunday, when I will have the apartment to myself.

Excellent!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 27, 2017, 07:04:00 PM

Quote from: George on January 27, 2017, 05:22:43 PM
By some stroke of luck, I found a sealed copy of this set today in a local used store. It appears that it is out of print, for only one or two amazon sellers offer it, for $350 - $400 new. I got it for $100. I almost didn't buy it, as space is limited in me and my girlfriend's apartment. Plus, I already have the complete Tatrai set and the Pro Arte and Mosaïques incomplete sets, but after reading Gurn and Que's convincing praise in this thread, I had to grab it! I plan to start listening to it this Sunday, when I will have the apartment to myself.

That's great, George! I'm still kicking myself for not buying one of those boxes back when they were giving them away (for $75). Nice to have backup. :D Looking forward to hearing your reaction. I think you will agree, it's different. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on January 27, 2017, 07:08:21 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 27, 2017, 07:04:00 PM
That's great, George! I'm still kicking myself for not buying one of those boxes back when they were giving them away (for $75). Nice to have backup. :D Looking forward to hearing your reaction. I think you will agree, it's different. :)

8)

I assume you mean different/good?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 27, 2017, 07:10:45 PM

Quote from: George on January 27, 2017, 07:08:21 PM
I assume you mean different/good?

Certainly. But they have a different approach than any of those others, to my ears it is a very joyful sort of playing, not like you are at a big life-or-death recital. IMO, Haydn would approve. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on January 27, 2017, 07:28:59 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 27, 2017, 07:10:45 PM
Certainly. But they have a different approach than any of those others, to my ears it is a very joyful sort of playing, not like you are at a big life-or-death recital. IMO, Haydn would approve. :)

8)

Very cool. Your comments earlier about how the Fetestics play on a smaller scale, for themselves than a "performance," much like Haydn did until the later works, was a big reason why I got the set.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on January 27, 2017, 10:20:58 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 27, 2017, 04:56:06 PM
Great, that can only be a good thing. I'm guessing it will be the Op 54/55 pair if they stick to form. :)

8)

Yes.
https://www.youtube.com/v/ZkSwBL23dso

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2017, 06:02:39 AM

Quote from: North Star on January 27, 2017, 10:20:58 PM
Yes.
https://www.youtube.com/v/ZkSwBL23dso

Nice. Interesting tempo choices; they put a little zip on that fastball (for you, Brian :D ). I'm looking forward to it, for sure.

The front page of the score, the Longman & Broderip version (from a different copy than the Artaria one) is the same one that James Boyd (the viola player) sent me a copy of that I used in my essay about these works. They had a tangled history! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/07/1788-the-music-part-2-opus-54-55-carlos-revenge.html)

Thanks for posting that, I would have never found it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mszczuj on January 29, 2017, 12:18:37 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2017, 06:06:00 AM
21 CD's of any genre is a pretty good chunk. I am curious if anyone, even those who have got the set, has listened to the entire thing

Alas only once. But in fact I had listened only once to all these completes trios, sonatas, symphonies, masses. Well I try sometimes to go again through all the quartets or symphonies. So I begin with op. 1, and the very first of these divertimenti is so unbelivably beutiful that I must listen to it for entire three days and then I must listen to something I never heard and must leave Haydn. So other time i decide "no early divertimenti" and begin with op. 9, and the very first quartet is so unbelivably rich that I must listen to it for three days... I had only one chance to listen to the all this entire boxes, when they were absolutely new and I had no choice - as listen to not listened yet was always the first principle of my life.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 29, 2017, 04:07:31 PM

Quote from: mszczuj on January 29, 2017, 12:18:37 PM
Alas only once. But in fact I had listened only once to all these completes trios, sonatas, symphonies, masses. Well I try sometimes to go again through all the quartets or symphonies. So I begin with op. 1, and the very first of these divertimenti is so unbelivably beutiful that I must listen to it for entire three days and then I must listen to something I never heard and must leave Haydn. So other time i decide "no early divertimenti" and begin with op. 9, and the very first quartet is so unbelivably rich that I must listen to it for three days... I had only one chance to listen to the all this entire boxes, when they were absolutely new and I had no choice - as listen to not listened yet was always the first principle of my life.

Ha, you need will power to stay the course! :D Well, I have been down this road you are on, the first time I listened to all those works I played each disks several times, because it was worth it. I don't always do that, but I got into the early Haydn music and there was no avoiding it. Even now, I often play a disk twice whenever I play it at all. Just in case I missed something. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on January 29, 2017, 04:26:59 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2017, 06:06:00 AM
21 CD's of any genre is a pretty good chunk. I am curious if anyone, even those who have got the set, has listened to the entire thing (except me, of course). It is uniformly good, but occasionally great. I can't think how he managed to keep his own interest level up across such a span of works.

I listened to a fair amount, but not the whole thing. I feel myself ashamed now.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2017, 06:06:00 AM
I can't think how he managed to keep his own interest level up across such a span of works. Did he ever discuss with Weigl, his cellist for these works, or even with the Prince "what next, lads?". They are no oeuvre to match the string quartets, or the symphonies for that matter, but so few other things are... :)

My boss used to say: "a man in need thinks a lot more than 10 scholars" (in Spanish: "un necesitado piensa más que diez letrados"). ;D :D ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 29, 2017, 04:36:31 PM

Quote from: Gordo on January 29, 2017, 04:26:59 PM
I listened to a fair amount, but not the whole thing. I feel myself ashamed now.

Now, now, nothing to be ashamed of. It just means you have a life... :D :D It is funny though how you can be listening to a large piece of them (I divided mine up into 24, like the original books were) and suddenly a movement will come along that is not just good listening, but will really catch your ear as great music! I tried to point a few of those places out in my essays, but I didn't catch myself to write them all down at the time. Guess I will have to do them again, with a pen and paper this time. 0:)

QuoteMy boss used to say: "a man in need thinks a lot more than 10 scholars" (in Spanish: "un necesitado piensa más que diez letrados"). ;D :D ;D

:) yes, funny things what semi-desperation will do. "Haydn, I must have more gamba trios..."

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on January 29, 2017, 04:52:18 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 29, 2017, 04:36:31 PM
Now, now, nothing to be ashamed of. It just means you have a life... :D :D It is funny though how you can be listening to a large piece of them (I divided mine up into 24, like the original books were) and suddenly a movement will come along that is not just good listening, but will really catch your ear as great music! I tried to point a few of those places out in my essays, but I didn't catch myself to write them all down at the time. Guess I will have to do them again, with a pen and paper this time. 0:)

Yes, time it's a factor even regarding things I love as much as Haydn music. Indeed, the completion of those highlights would be a fantastic contribution to our collaborative intelligence. :)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 29, 2017, 04:36:31 PM
:) yes, funny things what semi-desperation will do. "Haydn, I must have more gamba trios..."

Yes, almost the complete opposite of the romantic image about artists as misunderstood human beings...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 29, 2017, 04:59:53 PM

Quote from: Gordo on January 29, 2017, 04:52:18 PM
Yes, time it's a factor even regarding things I love as much as Haydn music. Indeed, the completion of those highlights would be a fantastic contribution to our collaborative intelligence. :)

Well, it won't be a lack of desire which makes it take some time, only a lack of time. But since I often listen to a 'Book' of them, it will need only to begin making some notes. I am learning how to do that, finally. I have too much information stored in my tiny brain, and so there seems to be little room for more. Notes are the answer! :)

QuoteYes, almost the complete opposite of the romantic image about artists as misunderstood human beings...

Oh, the poor tortured artist! :'( So sad they are... they would have been shitting their pants if told to write a new symphony in time for the big dance tomorrow night. Only 4 symphonies was a bad year for Haydn. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 29, 2017, 07:04:38 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2017, 06:06:00 AM
21 CD's of any genre is a pretty good chunk. I am curious if anyone, even those who have got the set, has listened to the entire thing (except me, of course). It is uniformly good, but occasionally great. I can't think how he managed to keep his own interest level up across such a span of works. Did he ever discuss with Weigl, his cellist for these works, or even with the Prince "what next, lads?". They are no oeuvre to match the string quartets, or the symphonies for that matter, but so few other things are... :)

8)

Don't forget that (sticking to Haydn) the symphonies take up 33 or more CDs, and the string quartets take up 22 or more CDs. So the baryton works are merely the third biggest category of Haydn's works.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 29, 2017, 07:15:12 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 29, 2017, 07:04:38 PM
Don't forget that (sticking to Haydn) the symphonies take up 33 or more CDs, and the string quartets take up 22 or more CDs. So the baryton works are merely the third biggest category of Haydn's works.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 11, 2017, 11:13:22 AM
Not just the quartets; 22 disks worth of them, another 33 of symphonies, 20 of operas, 9 of keyboard trios, 6 of string trios, a dozen or so of divertimentos, another dozen of keyboard sonatas, 21 baryton trios, songs, masses, oratorios... 8+ years and I am still just scratching the surface! :D

Oh, you missed my first post in that conversation where I went down just that same road. It is truly a formidable chunk of music!! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 06, 2017, 01:59:01 PM

"Papa" is WCRB's CD of the week. (http://classicalwcrb.org/post/cd-week-haydn-symphonies-8-84)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on February 06, 2017, 02:27:13 PM

Gurn - Do you refer to Haydn as Joseph Haydn or Franz Joseph Haydn?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 06, 2017, 03:31:07 PM

Quote from: George on February 06, 2017, 02:27:13 PM
Gurn - Do you refer to Haydn as Joseph Haydn or Franz Joseph Haydn?

Joseph. There is no record that he (or 99% of other Austrians in the 18th century) ever used their front name. He called himself Joseph, Josephus, and Giuseppe. All of those work for me. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on February 06, 2017, 04:02:18 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 06, 2017, 03:31:07 PM
Joseph. There is no record that he (or 99% of other Austrians in the 18th century) ever used their front name. He called himself Joseph, Josephus, and Giuseppe. All of those work for me. :)

8)

Thanks!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 07, 2017, 05:09:33 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 06, 2017, 03:31:07 PM
Joseph. There is no record that he (or 99% of other Austrians in the 18th century) ever used their front name.

The younger chap was christened Johannes Chrysostomus Wolfgangus Theophilus Mozart, for ready corroboration 0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on February 07, 2017, 10:26:18 AM

And he usually signed "Wolfgang Amadé Mozart" which is not even exactly identical to the two names used...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 07, 2017, 01:54:24 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on February 07, 2017, 10:26:18 AM
And he usually signed "Wolfgang Amadé Mozart" which is not even exactly identical to the two names used...

Yes, usually Amadé. Sometimes Amadè. Occasionally Amade. But only once, on his wedding license, IIRC, Amadeus. So yet another misleading thing about Amadeus. Of course, it is the same word as Theophilus, just Latin instead of Greek.

Haydn signed all of his music 'giuseppe Haydn'. He signed a lot of his letters 'Josephus', some of them just 'Joseph'. I think it varies depending on if it was business or a friend, but hard to see a general trend.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 20, 2017, 05:17:16 AM

Celebrating Presidents Day by (at last) converting the 33-CD DRD symphonies cube to soft copy.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 20, 2017, 05:34:44 AM

There is a hysterical typo (in the form of a trivial mistranslation, which was not caught by whatever editorial process employed, if any) in the first paragraph of liner notes to the DRD complete symphonies cube:

On p. 17:

Nearly four years separate the first symphony written by the 25-year-old Haydn as Kapellmeister to Count Morzin in the Czech provinces from his last contribution to the genre, which had its first performance in 1795 in a wildly-acclaimed concert given in the metropolis of London.

Original by Andreas Friesenhagen (Andreas had written vierzig, of course), translated by Clive Williams, Hamburg.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on February 20, 2017, 05:39:50 AM

G'day, Karl!

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 20, 2017, 05:34:44 AM
There is a hysterical typo (in the form of a trivial mistranslation, which was not caught by whatever editorial process employed, if any) in the first paragraph of liner notes to the DRD complete symphonies cube:

On p. 17:

Nearly four years separate the first symphony written by the 25-year-old Haydn as Kapellmeister to Count Morzin in the Czech provinces from his last contribution to the genre, which had its first performance in 1795 in a wildly-acclaimed concert given in the metropolis of London.

Original by Andreas Friesenhagen (Andreas had written vierzig, of course), translated by Clive Williams, Hamburg.

:laugh:

I still have ten symphonies to hear from the Decca box. My listening was halted partly by avalanches of newer arrivals, and partly by annoyance over playback issues thanks to one faulty CD, and a fair bit of hard-drive deterioration. ::)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 20, 2017, 06:03:19 AM

Ugh, viz. HD deterioration.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 20, 2017, 05:24:31 PM

We are getting down to the very end of Haydn's symphony production. And despite all odds, they just keep getting better! Although IMHO, this one will be hard to top! See if you agree. :)

Yes, Virginia, there really IS a 'Miracle Symphony' (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2017/02/1795-the-year-part-2-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 21, 2017, 03:33:22 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 20, 2017, 05:24:31 PM
We are getting down to the very end of Haydn's symphony production. And despite all odds, they just keep getting better! Although IMHO, this one will be hard to top! See if you agree. :)

Yes, Virginia, there really IS a 'Miracle Symphony' (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2017/02/1795-the-year-part-2-.html)

Thanks,
8)

How timely, since (with my sound file and folder management tasks) I was mulling on the mistaken "Miracle" labeling just yesterday.

Also, see PM, good sieur.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on February 22, 2017, 01:01:35 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 20, 2017, 05:24:31 PM
Although IMHO, this one will be hard to top! See if you agree. :)

Well, it did become one of my winners when we had a symphony poll.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on February 22, 2017, 01:52:50 AM

102 is probably also my favorite of all Haydn symphonies and a far superior piece to #96 (probably my least favorite of the "London" set). I prefer some finales and menuets but the first two movements are extraordinary. The instrumentation of the slow movement must be among the most sophisticated and magical in all 18th century (and a lot of other) music. The first movement is probably the most dramatic and "Beethovenian" of the late Haydn with sudden shifts in mood and rather violent outbursts.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: alkan on February 22, 2017, 02:39:54 AM

Yes, I agree that No 102 is the greatest of Haydn's symphonies bar none.

Now, which is the greatest recorded performance of this "miracuous" work?

My favourites are Harnoncourt and Kuijken, but there are many other versions that I have not heard ....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 22, 2017, 02:49:09 AM

I should be surprised to find any to displace Harnoncourt or Kuijken :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on February 22, 2017, 03:29:51 AM

Klemperer might be a little too Brucknerian in the Menuet but is overall very impressive if one wants the grandeur brought out.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on February 22, 2017, 03:59:21 AM

I only know one performance: Davis, Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra.

Given that it's the means by which I decided no.102 was a great symphony, it can't have been that bad...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 22, 2017, 04:09:31 AM

Quote from: ørfeo on February 22, 2017, 03:59:21 AM
I only know one performance: Davis, Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra.

Given that it's the means by which I decided no.102 was a great symphony, it can't have been that bad...

;)

It's a good performance, although I just found that I do prefer the Abbado/COE recording. That preference does not negate the virtues of the Davis/Concertgebouworkest, to be clear 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2017, 04:23:34 AM

Kuijken is my favorite, but a little-known contender is Hickox in the cycle left unfinished at his untimely death. His 102 has all you could ask in the playing and recording of it. \

[asin]B000050432[/asin]

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 22, 2017, 04:27:51 AM

And, while this may ultimately be chalked up to personal taste, I do entirely enjoy Lenny in the Hob. I/102 :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 22, 2017, 04:52:38 AM

Timings of the Adagio of their respective recordings of the Hob. I/102:

Davis/Concertgebouworkest — 5:41
Abbado/COE — 5:43
Lenny/NY Phil (1969) — 7:02

What can I say? Of course, there is nothing at all rushed about the Abbado or Davis performances. But nor do I hear any languor in Lenny's performance . . . sweetly energized (not oversweet, by any means); and all the lines, becomingly taut with no strain.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 22, 2017, 05:03:53 AM

Oh, and this will tickle . . .

Timings of the Presto Finale of their respective recordings of the Hob. I/102:

Davis/Concertgebouworkest — 4:43
Abbado/COE — 4:40
Lenny/NY Phil (1969) — 4:06

Again, finding no fault whatever in the Abbado or Davis performance . . . the NY Phil here are brilliant and clean, with no sacrifice of the warmth which infuses the Adagio. Lenny carries off something of a miracle here (you see what I just did), for this Finale is exhilaratingly joyous without devolving into (what is my quarrel with some performances of the Finale of the Prokofiev Op.25, e.g.) "circus music."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on February 22, 2017, 05:22:07 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 22, 2017, 04:52:38 AM
Timings of the Adagio of their respective recordings of the Hob. I/102:

Davis/Concertgebouworkest — 5:41
Abbado/COE — 5:43
Lenny/NY Phil (1969) — 7:02

What can I say? Of course, there is nothing at all rushed about the Abbado or Davis performances. But nor do I hear any languor in Lenny's performance . . . sweetly energized (not oversweet, by any means); and all the lines, becomingly taut with no strain.

5:09 for Brüggen / Oot18thC

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 22, 2017, 05:03:53 AM
Oh, and this will tickle . . .

Timings of the Presto Finale of their respective recordings of the Hob. I/102:

Davis/Concertgebouworkest — 4:43
Abbado/COE — 4:40
Lenny/NY Phil (1969) — 4:06

Again, finding no fault whatever in the Abbado or Davis performance . . . the NY Phil here are brilliant and clean, with no sacrifice of the warmth which infuses the Adagio. Lenny carries off something of a miracle here (you see what I just did), for this Finale is exhilaratingly joyous without devolving into (what is my quarrel with some performances of the Finale of the Prokofiev Op.25, e.g.) "circus music."

4:50 for Brüggen / Oot18thC

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 22, 2017, 05:38:45 AM

Interesting, thanks!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on February 22, 2017, 05:50:52 AM

This just shows the importance of weighting/balance between movements. We don't hear a finale in isolation (well, we're not intended to), we hear it in a context, as an event after other events. The tempo that feels right will be affected by what tempo was chosen for what came before. We hear tempo relatively, not absolutely.

I could go into a lengthy discussion about the strategies I used when creating pop music playlists or mixtapes, but this might not be the best place for it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2017, 06:10:23 AM

Quote from: ørfeo on February 22, 2017, 05:50:52 AM
This just shows the importance of weighting/balance between movements. We don't hear a finale in isolation (well, we're not intended to), we hear it in a context, as an event after other events. The tempo that feels right will be affected by what tempo was chosen for what came before. We hear tempo relatively, not absolutely.

I could go into a lengthy discussion about the strategies I used when creating pop music playlists or mixtapes, but this might not be the best place for it.

Exactly right. These concert hall pieces are not done any favors by repeated replaying of single movements in isolation from their context. Haydn was very fond, for example, of bringing little motifs from as far back as the introduction and first movement into his finales. How does one get to savor those unless they are played together? Modern radio be damned!

I am highly gratified by your discretion concerning mixtape programming. You are a gentleman, sir. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 22, 2017, 06:43:28 AM

If there is anything to this, I am sure I am not the first to remark it (I could not be). But I think I feel a certain Marcia funebre vibe in the c minor Andante of the second movement of the one-hundred-and-third Symphony, a symphony in the key of E^b.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on February 22, 2017, 07:28:27 AM

I thought it was supposed to be like a "gypsy melody" or even derived from such a folk melody. While the pace and mood are not completely wrong for a funeral march I think the movement overall is not "serious" enough for that. (For me the most "serious" music in that symphony is actually the ominous introduction that returns later in the first movement.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 22, 2017, 08:39:07 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on February 22, 2017, 07:28:27 AM
I thought it was supposed to be like a "gypsy melody" or even derived from such a folk melody. While the pace and mood are not completely wrong for a funeral march I think the movement overall is not "serious" enough for that.

Oh, you are perfectly right that the C Major interpolations are much too gay for a Marcia funebre! Nonetheless, I could see a thread loosely connecting this movement and . . . the famous instance by the younger composer 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on February 22, 2017, 08:51:15 AM

I actually think it is closer in character to (the beginning) of the andante from Schubert's great C major (although for that one the a minor movement from Beethoven's 7th was probably the closer cousin). Although none of them nor the Eroica funeral march is a variation movement in the fairly strict sense obeyed by Haydn's 103, ii.

In his #70 Haydn has a more serious (but less march-like) canonic andante in d minor and in #63 there are completely undramatic (I think the theme was a popular aria or so, in any case it is very catchy) minor-major variations as well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 22, 2017, 10:18:13 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on February 22, 2017, 08:51:15 AM
I actually think it is closer in character to (the beginning) of the andante from Schubert's great C major (although for that one the a minor movement from Beethoven's 7th was probably the closer cousin). Although none of them nor the Eroica funeral march is a variation movement in the fairly strict sense obeyed by Haydn's 103, ii.

In his #70 Haydn has a more serious (but less march-like) canonic andante in d minor and in #63 there are completely undramatic (I think the theme was a popular aria or so, in any case it is very catchy) minor-major variations as well.

Interesting thoughts, thanks. I was not so much concerned with "close copying" as with a more fluid manner of inspiration/modeling.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 05, 2017, 10:03:53 AM

I've always been interested in historic, larger-than-life characters. Before now, I really didn't know that King George III may have been one of them. I had an interesting time looking into his life and times.

Sorry, King, can't do it... (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2017/03/1795-the-year-part-3-.html)

Have a look,
Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 05, 2017, 10:38:14 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 05, 2017, 10:03:53 AM
I've always been interested in historic, larger-than-life characters. Before now, I really didn't know that King George III may have been one of them. I had an interesting time looking into his life and times.

Sorry, King, can't do it... (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2017/03/1795-the-year-part-3-.html)

Have a look,
Thanks,
8)

(http://www.fjhaydn.com/.a/6a019103645166970c01bb09803563970d-800wi)
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQY9tigEjzdL5Zco1i4ZusXrRK4PzAhtzJsmdb5RiR2K8bZUKEEvu7LdGk)

So you're saying Salieri killed King George?!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 05, 2017, 11:59:11 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 05, 2017, 10:38:14 AM
(http://www.fjhaydn.com/.a/6a019103645166970c01bb09803563970d-800wi)
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQY9tigEjzdL5Zco1i4ZusXrRK4PzAhtzJsmdb5RiR2K8bZUKEEvu7LdGk)

So you're saying Salieri killed King George?!

No question about it. We should team up and write a play... >:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on March 15, 2017, 02:02:24 PM

Hurwitz is at it again:

The world's ugliest string quartet is at it again, scraping and hacking its way through Op. 54/55 with its trademark hideous tone, approximate intonation, insensitivity to nuance, flabby phrasing, snorting, sniffling, and "historically informed" mannerisms. Dynamics are mezzo.

(http://classicstoday.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Haydn5455-225x225.jpg)

Thankfully, the rest of the review is behind a paywall!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 15, 2017, 02:24:01 PM

Quote from: The new erato on March 15, 2017, 02:02:24 PM
Thankfully, the rest of the review is behind a paywall!

I read it...the clips he provides rather contradict his negative assertions. That's often the case when I "listen" to his reviews. Still, I do prefer the Endellion in op.54 (the Quartet he compares the London Haydn to)...it's been a longtime favorite.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on March 15, 2017, 05:12:31 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 15, 2017, 02:24:01 PM
I read it...the clips he provides rather contradict his negative assertions. That's often the case when I "listen" to his reviews. Still, I do prefer the Endellion in op.54 (the Quartet he compares the London Haydn to)...it's been a longtime favorite.

Sarge

Hey Sarge,

Do you like Endellion's Beethoven QTs as well?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on March 16, 2017, 01:07:32 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 15, 2017, 02:24:01 PM
I read it...the clips he provides rather contradict his negative assertions. That's often the case when I "listen" to his reviews. Still, I do prefer the Endellion in op.54 (the Quartet he compares the London Haydn to)...it's been a longtime favorite.

Sarge

He has a very specific and strong blindspot when it comes to a certain kind of performance. If he finds the music doesn't have the "weight" he wants, it's all over.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on March 16, 2017, 01:24:13 AM

Hurwitz expertise in works without percussion is to be called into question. While he apparently wrote a decent book on Haydn's symphonies, I don't think he is particularly competent as far as chamber music and string playing is concerned.

FWIW, the best op.54 I remember is the vinyl only Juilliard Q. There is supposedly also a great op.54 (+55?) from the Allegri Quartet? (early 60s?), also vinyl only but I never found this on any of the download sites.

The Smithsonian Quartet recorded the first two (or maybe they recorded all three but only two were issued) on old instruments in the 1980s or so and as far as I recall they still hold up fairly well. The Festetics is a little too heavy for me in some of the pieces (they do far better in op.54/2 than in the more brilliant and "light" #1)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 16, 2017, 03:37:15 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 15, 2017, 02:24:01 PM
I read it...the clips he provides rather contradict his negative assertions. That's often the case when I "listen" to his reviews. Still, I do prefer the Endellion in op.54 (the Quartet he compares the London Haydn to)...it's been a longtime favorite.

Sarge

It's bonafide absurd. I think he was listening to the Quatuor Festetics when writing this review. If anything, the London Haydn Quartet is polished to a fault.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 16, 2017, 04:45:16 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 16, 2017, 03:37:15 AM
It's bonafide absurd. I think he was listening to the Quatuor Festetics when writing this review. If anything, the London Haydn Quartet is polished to a fault.

Which was, in fact, something I did fault them for in Op 9 & 17. I think they have really found their stride since Op 20 though, and are among the better products out there, PI or not. Anyway, it's dipshits like Hurwitz that give critics a bad name. It's one thing to use rhetorical devices that are over the top in order to make a point: quite another to use them in this baseless sort of way. >:(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The new erato on March 16, 2017, 05:40:22 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on March 16, 2017, 01:24:13 AM

FWIW, the best op.54 I remember is the vinyl only Juilliard Q.

I have that on LP!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 16, 2017, 05:44:02 AM

Quote from: George on March 15, 2017, 05:12:31 PM
Hey Sarge,

Do you like Endellion's Beethoven QTs as well?

I have not heard them in Beethoven, George. I only have their Haydn op.54 and Mozart K.499 Hoffmeister and K.589.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 16, 2017, 05:47:34 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on March 16, 2017, 01:24:13 AM
FWIW, the best op.54 I remember is the vinyl only Juilliard Q.

Quote from: The new erato on March 16, 2017, 05:40:22 AM
I have that on LP!

Me too. And it is a good recording.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/apr12/P4280265_haydn54.jpg)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 16, 2017, 06:20:43 AM

Quote from: The new erato on March 16, 2017, 05:40:22 AM
I have that on LP!

I have their Op 76 from the same era (on CD, fortunately) and it is also excellent. Hard to not like the Juilliard's, in whatever iteration you find them, they never suck. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on March 16, 2017, 06:32:51 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 16, 2017, 05:44:02 AM
I have not heard them in Beethoven, George. I only have their Haydn op.54 and Mozart K.499 Hoffmeister and K.589.

Sarge

Ok, thanks! Hope all is well with you, buddy!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on March 16, 2017, 08:39:43 AM

Quote from: George on March 15, 2017, 05:12:31 PM
Hey Sarge,

Do you like Endellion's Beethoven QTs as well?

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 16, 2017, 05:44:02 AM
I have not heard them in Beethoven, George. I only have their Haydn op.54 and Mozart K.499 Hoffmeister and K.589.

Sarge

For what it's worth, I like the Endellion's Beethoven cycle very much.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on March 16, 2017, 09:30:34 AM

Quote from: North Star on March 16, 2017, 08:39:43 AM
For what it's worth, I like the Endellion's Beethoven cycle very much.

Me too! I had them on my cull list and after trying the set one more time, I found room for it on the shelf.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 16, 2017, 09:34:15 AM

Quote from: George on March 16, 2017, 09:30:34 AM
Me too! I had them on my cull list and after trying the set one more time, I found room for it on the shelf.

A success story! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on March 16, 2017, 09:37:35 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 16, 2017, 09:34:15 AM
A success story! :)

To get another 100 feet of shelf space would be an even bigger success. $:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 16, 2017, 09:57:32 AM

The stuff that dreams are made of!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 19, 2017, 10:32:02 AM

I was amazed by the numbers of 'Benefit Concert' notices I was seeing in 1795 London, so I thought to take a look at them. Of course, can't do that without John Lennon... :D

This seems to be where the real money was. The Hendersons were all there too... (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2017/03/1795-the-year-part-4-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on March 19, 2017, 07:22:06 PM

Quote from: George on March 16, 2017, 09:30:34 AM
Me too! I had them on my cull list and after trying the set one more time, I found room for it on the shelf.

Me, three, for the Endellion. But I also made a needle drop of the Juilliard.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 19, 2017, 07:53:14 PM

Quote from: North Star on March 16, 2017, 08:39:43 AM
For what it's worth, I like the Endellion's Beethoven cycle very much.

I agree. But it was the Haydn, which I got first, which made me comfortable enough to get the Beethoven. So it's Gurn's (and his thread's) fault! :D :-* Because everything Haydn related is Gurn's fault! :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 20, 2017, 04:27:55 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on March 19, 2017, 07:53:14 PM
I agree. But it was the Haydn, which I got first, which made me comfortable enough to get the Beethoven. So it's Gurn's (and his thread's) fault! :D :-* Because everything Haydn related is Gurn's fault! :P

:) FWIW, I am quite happy with the Endellion's Op 54. I haven't heard them in anything else, but can't imagine they would be less than very good. :)

I guess that carrying the load for Haydn is a lot easier and more desirable than it could be for some other composer, so I'll shoulder my burden and trudge along. :D :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 20, 2017, 04:40:09 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on March 19, 2017, 07:53:14 PM
I agree. But it was the Haydn, which I got first, which made me comfortable enough to get the Beethoven. So it's Gurn's (and his thread's) fault! :D :-* Because everything Haydn related is Gurn's fault! :P

That's fair 0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on March 20, 2017, 10:05:55 AM

Quote from: Daverz on March 19, 2017, 07:22:06 PM
Me, three, for the Endellion. But I also made a needle drop of the Juilliard.

The 1964-1970 set?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on March 20, 2017, 06:16:30 PM

Quote from: George on March 20, 2017, 10:05:55 AM
The 1964-1970 set?

Did the Juilliard record Op. 54 more than once? I have it on Epic and the blue cover CBS Lp posted earlier (my copy seems to be a Mexican CBS pressing).

Here's som fun for y'all, a ranking of the 104 symphonies by "some guy":

http://www.classicfm.com/composers/haydn/guides/definitive-ranking-haydn-symphonies/

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on March 21, 2017, 02:29:37 AM

I think there is only one Juilliard recording of op.54; as I only have an mp3 or FLAC someone else made from an LP I don't know details.

The guy with the symphonies should maybe have taken a little more time to listen more thoroughly then results would not have been as ridiculous (although one has to admit that they are quite unpredictable: Nr.85 among the weakest 25?!)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on March 21, 2017, 03:21:27 AM

Quote from: Daverz on March 20, 2017, 06:16:30 PM
Did the Juilliard record Op. 54 more than once?

Sorry, I thought you meant Juilliard's Beethoven QTs.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 31, 2017, 04:23:46 AM

Happy Birthday to The Man!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 31, 2017, 06:30:31 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 31, 2017, 04:23:46 AM
Happy Birthday to The Man!

285 is a modest number of years (compared to Aristotle anyway). :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 31, 2017, 06:34:52 AM

He wears them graciously 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on March 31, 2017, 06:50:24 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 31, 2017, 04:23:46 AM
Happy Birthday to The Man!

So Haydn was an Aries. That makes sense.

QuoteAries Traits: Enterprising, Incisive, Spontaneous, Daring, Active, Courageous and Energetic, the Aries are the proverbial infants, guileless and optimistic to the fault.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 31, 2017, 12:00:51 PM

Quote from: Daverz on March 20, 2017, 06:16:30 PM
Here's som fun for y'all, a ranking of the 104 symphonies by "some guy":

http://www.classicfm.com/composers/haydn/guides/definitive-ranking-haydn-symphonies/

Thanks for the link, Dave. Although I disagree with many of his rankings (the Hen, Oxford and Farewell are absurdly underrated), his comments are intriguing and make me want to re-hear some of the symphonies.

Quote from: Jo498 on March 21, 2017, 02:29:37 AM
(although one has to admit that they are quite unpredictable: Nr.85 among the weakest 25?!)

That's another one I disagree completely with the list-making critic. 85 is one of my Top 30.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 31, 2017, 12:07:21 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 31, 2017, 12:00:51 PM
Thanks for the link, Dave. Although I disagree with many of his his rankings, his comments are intriguing and make me want to re-hear some of the symphonies.

That's one I disagree completely with critic. 85 is one of my Top 30.

Sarge

The whole concept of there being a definitive way to 'rank' Haydn's symphonies is batshit crazy, so I have to admit that I refused to read the article. I'm listening to the Finale: Presto of #29 in E Major right now, and this movement alone puts it into the Top Whatever (yes, 106). I can hardly pick the top Paris or London symphony, and I venture I have heard the entire cycle more often than he has heard any one of them. Just sayin'... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 31, 2017, 12:29:15 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 31, 2017, 12:07:21 PM
The whole concept of there being a definitive way to 'rank' Haydn's symphonies is batshit crazy, so I have to admit that I refused to read the article. I'm listening to the Finale: Presto of #29 in E Major right now, and this movement alone puts it into the Top Whatever (yes, 106). I can hardly pick the top Paris or London symphony, and I venture I have heard the entire cycle more often than he has heard any one of them. Just sayin'... :)

8)

Oh yes, it is batshit crazy. Haydn wrote 106 superb symphonies. Not a dud among them. Ranking them is a fool's game (yeah, I'm a fool too ;D ). Still, the exercise is fun, entertaining (if you don't take him seriously) and even informative. His comments, like your blog, have made me reevaluate some I hadn't given much thought to (so many slip through the cracks). For that reason alone, the article is worth reading.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 31, 2017, 12:40:15 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 31, 2017, 12:29:15 PM
Oh yes, it is batshit crazy. Haydn wrote 106 superb symphonies. Not a dud among them. Ranking them is a fool's game (yeah, I'm a fool too ;D ). Still, the exercise is fun, entertaining (if you don't take him seriously) and even informative. His comments, like your blog, have made me reevaluate some I hadn't given much thought to (so many slip through the cracks). For that reason alone, the article is worth reading.

Sarge

Yes, there are just so many of them, it is hard to remember where you heard that super little bit (oh, there it is, the finale of #59) that turned you on when you heard it last. I have often told people to not be put off by composers with a huge oeuvre, but seriously, it is hard sometimes not to be. And the three composers who have occupied the last decade for me (Haydn, Mozart and Vivaldi) all have humongous bodies of work, it is so difficult to get a solid grip on it all. :-\

I just took the shrinkwrap off Antonini's newest contribution:
[asin]B01MYGSGP4[/asin]

At least Haydn was able to recognize me long in advance with his The Absent-minded Man symphony. :D

Il Distratto: hey, it's me!! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/06/1774-the-music-part-1-.html) :-[

Cheers, Sarge,
8^)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 31, 2017, 12:55:20 PM

Took a quick look at "1732 births" entry on Wikipedia. Only two other people achieved (a certain amount of) fame: Beaumarchais and George Washington. ;D

Have you ever heard of, and listened to anything by, Johann Christoph Friedrich Bach, the 5th son of Johann Sebastian? :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on March 31, 2017, 01:09:43 PM

Quote from: Florestan on March 31, 2017, 12:55:20 PMHave you ever heard of, and listened to anything by, Johann Christoph Friedrich Bach, the 5th son of Johann Sebastian? :)

I have one trio sonata (in A major F.VII/2) in the HM Lumières box, will have to look into that.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 31, 2017, 01:15:13 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 31, 2017, 12:40:15 PM
the three composers who have occupied the last decade for me (Haydn, Mozart and Vivaldi) all have humongous bodies of work

You really need some Schubert in your life, my dear chap! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 31, 2017, 01:15:40 PM

Quote from: North Star on March 31, 2017, 01:09:43 PM
I have one trio sonata (in A major F.VII/2) in the HM Lumières box, will have to look into that.

Please report.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 31, 2017, 02:02:30 PM

Quote from: Florestan on March 31, 2017, 01:15:13 PM
You really need some Schubert in your life, my dear chap! :D

Well, to appreciate the volume of music on my listening agenda, let's say those 3 = 90% of my listening. That still leaves me time for Beethoven, Schubert, CPE Bach, Dvorak, my very large collection of Classic Era keyboard sonatas, 18th century Austrian (mostly) sacred music, and the very occasional Russian Romantic (1870 - ~1970). Oh, and Biber and 17th century Italian violin music. So I really don't feel deprived. :D I agree though, life without Schubert is very bleak indeed! 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 31, 2017, 02:11:28 PM

Quote from: Florestan on March 31, 2017, 12:55:20 PM
Have you ever heard of, and listened to anything by, Johann Christoph Friedrich Bach, the 5th son of Johann Sebastian? :)

Oh dear, you have been deprived! >:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 31, 2017, 02:14:49 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 31, 2017, 02:02:30 PM
life without Schubert is very bleak indeed!

Amen!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 31, 2017, 11:57:54 PM

Quote from: Florestan on March 31, 2017, 01:04:33 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71IrRFsmbRL._SY450_.jpg)

Missa "Rorate coeli desuper" Hob XXII:3

Boy, is this a whirlwind of a Mass! No sooner does Kyrie starts than one hears et in terra pax, followed almost immediately by patrem omnipotentem. Filioque is virtually simultaneous with exspecto ressurectionem mortuorum. No sooner one hears qui tollis peccata mundi than the final Amen has just finished. That's all, good people, ite, missa est and it lasted no longer than two Pater Noster and three Ave Maria.

The overall impression it left on me is that of a priest who just when he is about to begin saying the mass receives a handwritten note from his bishop: "Father X, get the whole thing done as quick as you can, for the Pope's just arrived and demands your presence for brunch!".

Is this one of earliest Haydn's musical jokes? :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 01, 2017, 12:21:07 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 31, 2017, 12:55:20 PM
Have you ever heard of, and listened to anything by, Johann Christoph Friedrich Bach, the 5th son of Johann Sebastian? :)

Yes, I have one disk with symphonies in a Brilliant collection dedicated to Bach's sons and a few more pieces on similar anthologies. To my recollection his music while not bad is fairly "run-of-the-mill" for its time, neither as distinctive as his older half-brother Philipp Emanuel and Wilhelm Friedemann or as pleasantly melodic proto-Mozartian as his youngest brother Johann Christian.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 01, 2017, 12:37:24 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 31, 2017, 12:00:51 PM
Thanks for the link, Dave. Although I disagree with many of his rankings (the Hen, Oxford and Farewell are absurdly underrated), his comments are intriguing and make me want to re-hear some of the symphonies.

That's another one I disagree completely with the list-making critic. 85 is one of my Top 30.

I am not even that fond of #85 (maybe a reaction to its high popularity and overshadowing pieces like 84 or 90). But while among the "lightest" later symphonies it is a brilliant piece without any doubt.

Sure, such a list can lead one to re-listen and to listen for some things one had not been aware of before but overall this particular list is so extraordinarily erratic (21,28 and 11 in the top 20? Ahead of Farewell and Oxford???) that I get the impression that this person really listened to these pieces only once, often for the first time and within a few days or weeks, often noting only first impressions.
And while this may be unpopular in this thread I think one reduces Haydn's achievement if one categorically states that "they are all great". Maybe they are (although I think that there are some considerably weaker and even rather forgettable pieces as is only to be expected for such a large body of work and the diverse objectives and circumstances of the symphonies) but that does not make them equally great. And while it may be a fool's game to debate if 45 is superior to 88 or vice versa, for me it is clear that both of them are superior to e.g. #40.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on April 01, 2017, 03:44:25 AM

I consistently prefer #Brüggen & #orchestra18c over Hogwood & AAM. I can't be alone in that, can I? Hogwood was a leap forward but we can leap further, still, without ending up in a 'faster-quicker-sillier' race, methinks.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C8UkqsDXYAAf6gn.jpg)
#morninglistening to @orchestra18c in @deccaclassics' #Haydn107:http://a-fwd.to/6N4wVGb

Terrific stuff altogether... http://ift.tt/2olpmwH (http://a-fwd.to/6N4wVGb)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 01, 2017, 05:56:05 AM

Brüggen was always among the more flexible and expressive HIP musicians whereas Hogwood can be stiff and perfunctory. In the symphonies it's basically that for many of them Hogwood is the only HIP game in town. If other options are available I usually find them more convincing. Solomons has a similarly small and smallish sounding ensemble but his interpretations seem far more intense and committed (I said before that it is a great pity that his set was abandoned and only a little available on CD). Pinnock's Archiv box has wonderful sound with a somewhat bigger ensemble and while also straightforward and middle of the road beats Hogwood in the tonal beauty and weight department. And even while the sometimes overly prominent harpsichord on Goodman's tends to annoy me, they also sound more pleasant and more fun than Hogwood. Still, Hogwood's are usually not bad and some are quite good (the Nr.31 "Hornsignal", for instance)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on April 01, 2017, 08:19:38 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 31, 2017, 01:15:40 PM
Quote from: North Star on March 31, 2017, 01:09:43 PM
Quote from: Florestan on March 31, 2017, 12:55:20 PM
Have you ever heard of, and listened to anything by, Johann Christoph Friedrich Bach, the 5th son of Johann Sebastian? :)
I have one trio sonata (in A major F.VII/2) in the HM Lumières box, will have to look into that.
Please report.

Well, it's an 11 minute trio sonata (2 vn, vc, hpd) in three movements, (allegro, andante, tempo di minuetto - all performed at roughly the same tempo) and it's all very gallant and pleasant, but the overall impression I get is that I'm hearing the same conversation repeated three times, once in a minor key. ::)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on April 01, 2017, 09:14:06 AM

Fey & his Heidelbergers Continue!
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71HmkjbbPXL._SL1200_.jpg)
Volume 23
Symphonies 6-8, 35, 46, 51
Hänssler Classic (http://a-fwd.to/3vzVZLa)

Hänssler has published Volume 23 of this Haydn series: The three early symphonies 6 – 8 (Le Matin, Le Midi, and Le Soir) were still recorded by Fey but no longer edited. This has now been done for him – and the orchestra organized itself to record Symphonies 35, 46, 51 "in the spirit of Thomas Fey". Fey is still recovering and his return to active duty has been delayed again and again, but there is apparently still reason for hope that he WILL fully recover and see this to its end -- and then some.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 02, 2017, 01:36:36 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on April 01, 2017, 12:37:24 AM
this particular list is so extraordinarily erratic (21,28 and 11 in the top 20? Ahead of Farewell and Oxford???) that I get the impression that this person really listened to these pieces only once, often for the first time and within a few days or weeks, often noting only first impressions.

This is the entire point of the list, as is clear from the introduction, and frankly it bewilders me that some of you are taking it so seriously.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2017, 09:24:19 AM

Since 1795 was one of the most successful years of Haydn's career, I sort of had the impression that he must have written lots of big music. But the reality is different, as I discovered this time...

Quality trumps quantity any day! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2017/04/1795-the-year-part-5-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 08, 2017, 11:24:02 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston

Nowadays, we have a modest snicker over this kind of storytelling, but what if it is, in fact, exactly what Haydn had in mind? You scoff? Consider then how we find descriptions from Haydn's own lips, such as this in The New Grove Haydn. James Webster tells us:

Haydn was also a master of rhetoric. This is a matter not only of musical 'topoi' [NB – a rhetorical convention or formula] and rhetorical 'figures' but also of contrasts in register, gestures, implications of genre and the rhythms of destabilization and recovery, especially as these play out over the course of an entire movement. Referential associations are common in his instrumental music, especially symphonies (nos.6–8, 22, 26, 30–31, 44–5, 49, 60, 64, 73, 100); they invoke serious human and cultural issues, including religious belief, war, pastoral, the times of day, longing for home, ethnic identity and the hunt. Haydn told Griesinger and Dies that he 'often portrayed moral characters in his symphonies' and that one early Adagio presented 'a dialogue between God and a foolish sinner' (unidentified; perhaps from no. 7, 22 or 26). In his vocal music Haydn (like Handel) was a brilliant and enthusiastic word-painter. This trait is but one aspect of his musical imagery in general: in addition to rhetorical figures and 'topoi' it comprises key associations (e.g. E with the hereafter), semantic associations (e.g. the flute with the pastoral) and musical conceptualizations... [snip]

In our far more sophisticated modern musical society, it is far more interesting to me to get some sort of a picture of how Haydn and his contemporaries perceived music, both in its construction and its subsequent deconstruction. We have survived the philosophical and technical onslaught of countless Romantics and post-Romantics, who have reduced music appreciation into an endless stream of jargon which is completely exclusive rather than inclusive, so maybe the 18th century had a point. In Momigny's view, Haydn is telling a story, one we can all relate to. He is as matter-of-fact in the telling as if it was a short story rather than a symphony. And we can relate to it because, while we may have largely outgrown small town bickering and hiding in the village church, storms and coping with them are still an everyday fact of life.

So, if Berlioz, Liszt, R. Strauss et al. tell stories in / with their music, it's no good, because they were Romantics --- but if Haydn does the same, it's a magnificent thing, because he was Haydn... ::)

Otherwise, great as usual. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 08, 2017, 11:41:17 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 08, 2017, 11:24:02 AM
So, if Berlioz, Liszt, R. Strauss et al. tell stories in / with their music, it's no good, because they were Romantics --- but if Haydn does the same, it's a magnificent thing, because he was Haydn... ::)

Otherwise, great as usual. 8)

Thanks. :)

The storytelling was Momigny's, not Haydn's. Haydn merely used those sorts of ideas in order to establish a rhetorical framework for himself to fill in. As I am told, the Romantics abandoned the use of rhetorical principles, so their ideas of musical storytelling have a different basis than the Classicists. I know, this is a scab you really want to pick at, but I can't help you with it. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 09, 2017, 05:36:13 AM

Quote from: Gurn BlanstonWe have survived the philosophical and technical onslaught of countless Romantics and post-Romantics, who have reduced music appreciation into an endless stream of jargon which is completely exclusive rather than inclusive

All jokes aside, and very seriously now, dear Gurn, I really can't make any head or tail of the above. Would you be so kind as to clarify what you meant? TIA.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 09, 2017, 06:06:54 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 09, 2017, 05:36:13 AM
All jokes aside, and very seriously now, dear Gurn, I really can't make any head or tail of the above. Would you be so kind as to clarify what you meant? TIA.

OK, well try this and see if it makes more sense to you. I could have been been easier on you by saying "the 19th century" instead of "the Romantics" but it isn't supposed to be easy. :D

Music in the 19th century went from being a really small cottage industry, which is just what it was outside of Church and Court. When it became a mass-market commodity, all the various appendages, like formal criticism, definitions down to the nth degree (often wrong: viz. 'sonata') and a clear separation between musicians and "everyone else". I'm sure you have read some musical analyses. Unless you have a music theory degree I am unaware of, do you think that shit was written for you or me to understand? I think not. They didn't talk that way in the 18th century. The musical relationships were there, of course, but they didn't use highly technical terms to describe them. They also didn't have a hierarchy of works that deserved to be played over and over again and everything else be damned. All of that stuff is a product of the 19th century. It is called evolutionary progress. Quite honestly, I don't care for it. Schenker sounds too close to 'chancre' for me to be comfortable around him, I can fairly say that. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 09, 2017, 06:10:42 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 09, 2017, 06:06:54 AM
OK, well try this and see if it makes more sense to you. I could have been been easier on you by saying "the 19th century" instead of "the Romantics" but it isn't supposed to be easy. :D

Music in the 19th century went from being a really small cottage industry, which is just what it was outside of Church and Court. When it became a mass-market commodity, all the various appendages, like formal criticism, definitions down to the nth degree (often wrong: viz. 'sonata') and a clear separation between musicians and "everyone else". I'm sure you have read some musical analyses. Unless you have a music theory degree I am unaware of, do you think that shit was written for you or me to understand? I think not. They didn't talk that way in the 18th century. The musical relationships were there, of course, but they didn't use highly technical terms to describe them. They also didn't have a hierarchy of works that deserved to be played over and over again and everything else be damned. All of that stuff is a product of the 19th century. It is called evolutionary progress. Quite honestly, I don't care for it. Schenker sounds too close to 'chancre' for me to be comfortable around him, I can fairly say that. :D

8)

Thanks a lot. You do have (apparently... ;D ) some points. Stay tuned for my reply.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 09, 2017, 07:28:52 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 09, 2017, 06:06:54 AM
Music in the 19th century went from being a really small cottage industry, which is just what it was outside of Church and Court.

Had you and I been born in 1732 in exactly the same station in life, and exactly the same geographical area, we were actually born, what wouldf have been our chances to hear Haydn's music? I don't know your answer, but mine is "Three unqualified cheers for the 19th century bourgeoisie and its cultural posterity!"

Quote
When it became a mass-market commodity, all the various appendages, like formal criticism, definitions down to the nth degree (often wrong: viz. 'sonata') and a clear separation between musicians and "everyone else".

When it became that, what? Where is the verb? ;D

Quote
I'm sure you have read some musical analyses.

I usually avoid them, as they are far beyond my knowledge and interest.

Quote
Unless you have a music theory degree I am unaware of, do you think that shit was written for you or me to understand?

Although it doesn't logically follow from anything you wrote above, I assume that by "that shit" you mean 19th Century / Romantic music

Quote
I think not.

Then you must think harder.

QuoteThey didn't talk that way in the 18th century.

You don't talk the way an 18th Century man of your trade talked --- assuming your trade existed back then.

Quote
The musical relationships were there, of course, but they didn't use highly technical terms to describe them.

Although it doesn't logically follow from anything you wrote above, I assume that by "highly technical terms" you mean 19th Century / Romantic music / criticism.

Now, please tell me what are the "highly technical terms" used here:

http://www.hberlioz.com/Predecessors/beethsym.htm#sym3 (http://www.hberlioz.com/Predecessors/beethsym.htm#sym3)

Quote
They also didn't have a hierarchy of works that deserved to be played over and over again and everything else be damned.

Assuming you mean "they, the 18th century", you're shooting yourself in both feet! Had it not been for the 19th Century / Romantic cult of geniuses and reverence of the past, I very much doubt that either you or I would have been able to hear a iota of Haydn's music.

Quote
All of that stuff is a product of the 19th century.

For which the 19th Century be praised forever and ever, amen!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 09, 2017, 07:44:49 AM

Quote from: James Websterserious human and cultural issues, including religious belief, war, pastoral, the times of day, longing for home, ethnic identity and the hunt.

All those, and many more, applies to Liszt's music as well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mahlerian on April 09, 2017, 07:48:59 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 09, 2017, 06:06:54 AM
OK, well try this and see if it makes more sense to you. I could have been been easier on you by saying "the 19th century" instead of "the Romantics" but it isn't supposed to be easy. :D

Music in the 19th century went from being a really small cottage industry, which is just what it was outside of Church and Court. When it became a mass-market commodity, all the various appendages, like formal criticism, definitions down to the nth degree (often wrong: viz. 'sonata') and a clear separation between musicians and "everyone else". I'm sure you have read some musical analyses. Unless you have a music theory degree I am unaware of, do you think that shit was written for you or me to understand? I think not. They didn't talk that way in the 18th century. The musical relationships were there, of course, but they didn't use highly technical terms to describe them. They also didn't have a hierarchy of works that deserved to be played over and over again and everything else be damned. All of that stuff is a product of the 19th century. It is called evolutionary progress. Quite honestly, I don't care for it. Schenker sounds too close to 'chancre' for me to be comfortable around him, I can fairly say that. :D

8)

It is probably true that music criticism as applied to individual works did not exist the way then that it does now, but that is a reflection of the idea of the work as something more than ephemeral. Naturally, music theory written in highly erudite language existed in the 18th century (Fux) and the 16th century (Zarlino), and earlier. This served both a pedagogical and a philosophical purpose for the writers and readers of the time, and a valuable historical one today. These treatises tended to be very precise about the terms they used, and extremely technical (just try reading any of the truly theoretical parts of these books).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 09, 2017, 08:32:44 AM

Please don't make me go through one of these 100 point posts. Life is too short!

Quote from: Florestan on April 09, 2017, 07:28:52 AM
Had you and I been born in 1732 in exactly the same station in life, and exactly the same geographical area, we were actually born, what would have been our chances to hear Haydn's music? I don't know your answer, but mine is "Three unqualified cheers for the 19th century bourgeoisie and its cultural posterity!"

Unless you happened to be there for other reasons, they would have hovered between slim and none. Maybe in America my chances would have been better, but since CD's were still in the formative stages... There were musical performances in Boston which the public could attend. America was much more egalitarian than Europe, even then. So my chances would have been better than yours, for what it's worth.

QuoteWhen it became that, what? Where is the verb? ;D

The verb is that it then became more easy to get to hear, but much harder to truly understand.

QuoteI usually avoid them, as they are far beyond my knowledge and interest.

Well duh, that's my point. They shouldn't be far beyond your knowledge. And they wouldn't be if any effort at all had been made to make them comprehensible for a person of above average intelligence who merely lacks formal training.

QuoteAlthough it doesn't logically follow from anything you wrote above, I assume that by "that shit" you mean 19th Century / Romantic music

No, there you go assuming again. I meant the sort of writing which attends 19th century music. The stuff you don't read because it is above your pay grade.

QuoteYou don't talk the way an 18th Century man of your trade talked --- assuming your trade existed back then.

True, language has evolved too. It has become for more variegated and also far less precise. Words frequently mean the opposite of what they used to mean, which shows intellectual laziness on the part of speakers and writers. 'Ultimate' means 'final', not 'greatest'. There are thousands of other examples but I've typed enough already.

QuoteAlthough it doesn't logically follow from anything you wrote above, I assume that by "highly technical terms" you mean 19th Century / Romantic music / criticism.

Sure, why not?

QuoteNow, please tell me what are the "highly technical terms" used here:

http://www.hberlioz.com/Predecessors/beethsym.htm#sym3 (http://www.hberlioz.com/Predecessors/beethsym.htm#sym3)

I can give you a dozen more examples if you like. Surely you can see that something which was begun when Berlioz was already a grown man, though young still, had not yet reached the full potential that it has today? The seed had been planted, the tree hadn't overtaken the garden yet.

QuoteAssuming you mean "they, the 18th century", you're shooting yourself in both feet! Had it not been for the 19th Century / Romantic cult of geniuses and reverence of the past, I very much doubt that either you or I would have been able to hear a iota of Haydn's music.

For which the 19th Century be praised forever and ever, amen!

No, the 18th century had no such thing as a 'Canon of Western Music'. It wasn't even on their radar. Don't read something in there where I didn't say it. If I wanted to construct and type up an airtight argument with you, I would spend more than 10 minutes on it. I really don't though, I am simply not that interested in either attacking your position or defending my own. You should listen to more music. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 09, 2017, 08:45:10 AM

Quote from: Mahlerian on April 09, 2017, 07:48:59 AM
It is probably true that music criticism as applied to individual works did not exist the way then that it does now, but that is a reflection of the idea of the work as something more than ephemeral. Naturally, music theory written in highly erudite language existed in the 18th century (Fux) and the 16th century (Zarlino), and earlier. This served both a pedagogical and a philosophical purpose for the writers and readers of the time, and a valuable historical one today. These treatises tended to be very precise about the terms they used, and extremely technical (just try reading any of the truly theoretical parts of these books).

True, Fux (and Mattheson, for example) were very technical for their time. But I have read Strunk's Source Reading in Music History and found it far more digestible than anything written today. I read it and learned a lot from it. But if you try Elements of Sonata Theory by Hepkoski & Darcy, as fine as book as it is reputed to be, I couldn't get past page 1. It uses a language which only the most well-educated theoretician can comprehend. Gradus ad Parnassum is Dr. Seuss comparatively. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mahlerian on April 09, 2017, 09:02:12 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 09, 2017, 08:45:10 AM
True, Fux (and Mattheson, for example) were very technical for their time. But I have read Strunk's Source Reading in Music History and found it far more digestible than anything written today. I read it and learned a lot from it. But if you try Elements of Sonata Theory by Hepkoski & Darcy, as fine as book as it is reputed to be, I couldn't get past page 1. It uses a language which only the most well-educated theoretician can comprehend. Gradus ad Parnassum is Dr. Seuss comparatively. :)

8)

The pedagogical (and more famous) second part of Gradus ad Parnassum, yes, but the first part is entirely theoretical, going on at length regarding the various mathematical proportions realized in sounding intervals, the basis in harmonic ratios, etc. That part particularly draws on earlier treatises of the kind I mentioned. Music theory has been around since music notation has existed.

Speaking for myself, I learned to pick up on the basics of music analysis relatively quickly. Good analysis serves to elucidate what is heard.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 09, 2017, 11:23:06 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 09, 2017, 08:32:44 AM
it then became more easy to get to hear, but much harder to truly understand.

"Music does not have to be understood, it needs to be listened to!" --- Hermann Scherchen

Quote
Well duh, that's my point. They shouldn't be far beyond your knowledge. And they wouldn't be if any effort at all had been made to make them comprehensible for a person of above average intelligence who merely lacks formal training.

Well, precisely. Nobody needs any formal knowledge of musical theory or rhetoric in order to get what Hunnenschlacht is about. It might as well be about the Battle of Königgrätz or the Battle of Stalingrad -- -- any sentient and knowledgeable person can make of it whatever s/he fancies, the umkistakable sense of struggle and aftermath is there for any any sentient and knowledgeable person to experience.

I strongly reject the idea that one needs formal training and above average intelligence in order to get / feel / understood Romantic music (or any other type of music, for that matter).

Quote
No, there you go assuming again. I meant the sort of writing which attends 19th century music. The stuff you don't read because it is above your pay grade.

I don't know about you (rhetorical figure all along, \I know you very well :) ), but I'd rather read things that contradict my own views than things that agree with them. I much prefer being intellectually challenged than being intellectually stagnant.

Quote
True, language has evolved too. It has become for more variegated and also far less precise. Words frequently mean the opposite of what they used to mean, which shows intellectual laziness on the part of speakers and writers. 'Ultimate' means 'final', not 'greatest'. There are thousands of other examples but I've typed enough already.

Wittgenstein vindicated, ossia Humpty Dumpty Linguistics for Dummies. :laugh:

Quote
I can give you a dozen more examples if you like. Surely you can see that something which was begun when Berlioz was already a grown man, though young still, had not yet reached the full potential that it has today? The seed had been planted, the tree hadn't overtaken the garden yet.

It has always striked me as peculiarly odd that the Romantic theory of music was already penned long before any Romantic composer (in the contemporary acception of the term) was born.

Wackenroder, Novalis, Hoffmann --- they preceded the Romantic composers by at least 10 or 20 years. All they knew as contemporary music was (quite a few) Haydn and Mozart and (early) Beethoven --- so I am firrmly convinced that they heard in their music things we are unable to hear anymore.

Quote
No, the 18th century had no such thing as a 'Canon of Western Music'. It wasn't even on their radar.

Precisely my point. Had it not been for the Romantic cult of genius and the subsequent 'Canon of Western Music', Haydn would have been as forgotten today as JS Bach was in the 1820s. Not to mention Vivaldi --- he'd not have been even a footnote in the history of music.

Quote
You should listen to more music. :)

I listen to music daily and nightly. It's just that I also like to think about it. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 10, 2017, 02:46:07 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 09, 2017, 11:23:06 AM
"Music does not have to be understood, it needs to be listened to!" --- Hermann Scherchen

A binary fallacy 0:)

Really: Just because a great artist makes an assertion, doesn't make the assertion an unassailable truth.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 10, 2017, 02:52:20 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 10, 2017, 02:46:07 AM
A binary fallacy 0:)

Really: Just because a great artist makes an assertion, doesn't make the assertion an unassailable truth.

Absolutely, and I didn't present it as such. I should have used an emoticon, actually.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 10, 2017, 03:05:33 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 10, 2017, 02:52:20 AM
Absolutely, and I didn't present it as such. I should have used an emoticon, actually.

No worries; early in the day yet here, old dear.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 10, 2017, 03:08:30 AM

And anyway, as Игорь Фëдорович plentifully underscores, the artists, even when dead wrong, are often of interest for the odd insight.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on April 10, 2017, 03:12:59 AM

You can enjoy a wine without any technical knowledge of hydrocarbons - you can even know a great deal about wine without significant knowledge of hydrocarbons.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 10, 2017, 03:16:46 AM

I'll speculate that, for me, if I knew about hydrocarbons (or, what little I know about hydrocarbons) does not affect how, or the degree to which, I enjoy the wine.

But understanding music does enrich my enjoyment, or, it is one of the layers of my enjoying the music. Does anyone else need that understanding? That's for them to say, I suppose.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2017, 04:26:57 AM

Just for the record, and despite any efforts to paint my opinions as something they aren't, I don't think you need to be an expert on theory to enjoy music either. If I did, I would be in a very poor posture. My comments were strictly aimed at the way that theory has become more and more arcane over the last 2 centuries, to the point where if it isn't your specialty, you can scarcely understand it at all. And it didn't used to be that way, and I think music has not gotten better for it, which should have been the only reason to do something like that. :) If you read the essay, you won't find anything in it that states, avers, avows or postulates anything else.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 10, 2017, 05:15:44 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2017, 04:26:57 AM
Just for the record, and despite any efforts to paint my opinions as something they aren't, I don't think you need to be an expert on theory to enjoy music either. If I did, I would be in a very poor posture. My comments were strictly aimed at the way that theory has become more and more arcane over the last 2 centuries, to the point where if it isn't your specialty, you can scarcely understand it at all. And it didn't used to be that way, and I think music has not gotten better for it, which should have been the only reason to do something like that. :) If you read the essay, you won't find anything in it that states, avers, avows or postulates anything else.

8)

I clearly misunderstood you. You refered to theory while I took it to refer to music. Things are clear now and I quite agree. My apologies.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 10, 2017, 05:17:05 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2017, 04:26:57 AM
Just for the record, and despite any efforts to paint my opinions as something they aren't, I don't think you need to be an expert on theory to enjoy music either. If I did, I would be in a very poor posture. My comments were strictly aimed at the way that theory has become more and more arcane over the last 2 centuries, to the point where if it isn't your specialty, you can scarcely understand it at all. And it didn't used to be that way, and I think music has not gotten better for it, which should have been the only reason to do something like that. :) If you read the essay, you won't find anything in it that states, avers, avows or postulates anything else.

8)

Well, I should not dare to put on any music theory dog, either.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2017, 05:31:26 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 10, 2017, 05:15:44 AM
I clearly misunderstood you. You refered to theory while I took it to refer to music. Things are clear now and I quite agree. My apologies.

No problem at all, dear fellow. I simply wanted it to be clear at the end that this is what I was talking about, not the music itself. The music clearly grew too, but that is an entirely different kettle of fish. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2017, 05:33:31 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 10, 2017, 05:17:05 AM
Well, I should not dare to put on any music theory dog, either.

Well, more than me! Chromatic Completion, Karl. Or if you will Khromatic Kompletion, Carl. What say you, you theory hound?! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 10, 2017, 05:33:58 AM

Music Theory is hell. God, I love it so.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 10, 2017, 06:23:48 AM

I posted that Berlioz link on purpose. There is little technical jargon, and certainly not incomprehensible for laymen, that he uses in analyzing Beethoven's symphonies. Schumann's musical criticism is also extremely readable and eminently understandable for laymen.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 10, 2017, 06:29:26 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 10, 2017, 06:23:48 AM
I posted that Berlioz link on purpose. There is little technical jargon, and certainly not incomprehensible for laymen, that he uses in analyzing Beethoven's symphonies. Schumann's musical criticism is also extremely readable and eminently understandable for laymen.

So I guess you are making the case that listeners do in fact need theory in order to appreciate the music 8) I mean, we in the 21^st century can hardly imagine finding Beethoven's symphonies difficult of understanding.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 10, 2017, 06:54:04 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 10, 2017, 06:29:26 AM
So I guess you are making the case that listeners do in fact need theory in order to appreciate the music 8)

You misunderstood me. I agree that theory can, and usually does, enhance one's appreciation for the subtlety of this or that composition --- but theory is not needed for the appreciation itself.

My case was different, viz. that the writings about music of Berlioz and Schumann make little use of technicalities and can be read and understood even by someone who has not the slightest idea about theory --- in clear contradistinction to the authors lambasted by Gurn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2017, 06:55:32 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 10, 2017, 06:23:48 AM
I posted that Berlioz link on purpose. There is little technical jargon, and certainly not incomprehensible for laymen, that he uses in analyzing Beethoven's symphonies. Schumann's musical criticism is also extremely readable and eminently understandable for laymen.

I agree, I have read quite a bit of Schumann, only a little Berlioz. They didn't put a big emphasis on analysis, that was still awaiting the future. Perhaps it was because both of them were musicians instead of professional theoreticians. I'll post some here later when I have the chance to type it out. You won't be able to disagree with me. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 10, 2017, 06:58:52 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2017, 06:55:32 AM
I agree, I have read quite a bit of Schumann, only a little Berlioz. They didn't put a big emphasis on analysis, that was still awaiting the future. Perhaps it was because both of them were musicians instead of professional theoreticians.

Partly, too, because they were journalists, and the periodicals had a more general readership, perhaps, than comparable publications today.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 10, 2017, 07:01:45 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 10, 2017, 06:54:04 AM
You misunderstood me. I agree that theory can, and usually does, enhance one's appreciation for the subtlety of this or that composition --- but theory is not needed for the appreciation itself.

Well, but I wonder. Berlioz really did need to make the case for Beethoven's music as Beethoven wrote it; so few among even the professional musicians were willing to leave his scores "uncorrected." So maybe there are times when theory is needed to foster appreciation.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 10, 2017, 07:15:04 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 10, 2017, 06:58:52 AM
Partly, too, because they were journalists, and the periodicals had a more general readership, perhaps, than comparable publications today.

A good point, although in Schumann's case he wrote for a specialized periodical and I suppose (many, if not most) people who read it knew their theory.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 10, 2017, 07:01:45 AM
there are times when theory is needed to foster appreciation.

For specialists, certainly, for laymen I'm not sure.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mahlerian on April 10, 2017, 08:23:31 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2017, 04:26:57 AM
Just for the record, and despite any efforts to paint my opinions as something they aren't, I don't think you need to be an expert on theory to enjoy music either. If I did, I would be in a very poor posture. My comments were strictly aimed at the way that theory has become more and more arcane over the last 2 centuries, to the point where if it isn't your specialty, you can scarcely understand it at all. And it didn't used to be that way, and I think music has not gotten better for it, which should have been the only reason to do something like that. :) If you read the essay, you won't find anything in it that states, avers, avows or postulates anything else.

8)

Funny that you mentioned Schenker in that regard, as Schenker was a reactionary in terms of aesthetics who wanted to prove that all music after Brahms was nonsensical garbage, and objectively so.

I don't think there's any music that really requires a knowledge of theory for enjoyment. At the very least, I am not aware of any. I found that I wanted to understand the music I was listening to better, and turned to theory as a way of doing that, but the enjoyment was there from the beginning, or I wouldn't have cared enough to dig more deeply.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 10, 2017, 08:40:34 AM

Quote from: Mahlerian on April 10, 2017, 08:23:31 AM
I don't think there's any music that really requires a knowledge of theory for enjoyment.

Very good. I suppose my remark about Berlioz and the need to sell LvB on LvB's terms, points to context.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2017, 09:37:25 AM

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 10, 2017, 12:44:54 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2017, 09:37:25 AM
Since 1795 was one of the most successful years of Haydn's career, I sort of had the impression that he must have written lots of big music. But the reality is different, as I discovered this time...

Quality trumps quantity any day! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2017/04/1795-the-year-part-5-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Are you having a senior moment? You posted this already. ;D ;) Anyway, thanks for the reminder. I've been meaning to listen to the symphony "Mit dem Paukenwirbel" again...and am doing that now.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2017, 02:28:30 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 10, 2017, 12:44:54 PM
Are you having a senior moment? You posted this already. ;D ;) Anyway, thanks for the reminder. I've been meaning to listen to the symphony "Mit dem Paukenwirbel" again...and am doing that now.

Sarge

:D No, there was a page and a half of other discussion which piled up so rapidly I thought anyone not here on the weekend might now know the link existed.

Isn't that a great symphony? Always been a favorite. Did you know, it's about a storm and a village church... >:D :D :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 11, 2017, 12:02:19 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2017, 02:28:30 PM
Did you know, it's about a storm and a village church... >:D :D :D

8)

I didn't know for sure but had long suspected...you know, all that rumbling and piety so obviously depicted ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 11, 2017, 12:07:06 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 11, 2017, 12:02:19 PM
I didn't know for sure but had long suspected...you know, all that rumbling and piety so obviously depicted ;D

Sarge

:D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 11, 2017, 11:34:10 PM

You actually fooled me, I thought you had the stuff with the villagers and the storm made up on the spot...

While I have seen the name mentioned, I have never heard any music by Ordonez. As for the recurring introduction, I'd say for one thing it is not such an outlandish idea and there are earlier Haydn symphonies where the whole introduction consists mainly of slightly "distorted" (slower, sometimes in the minor mode etc.) material of the main allegro, e.g. in 90 and 98. And if one wants to name a more specific "model" or inspiration my money is rather on Mozart's quintet K 593 where the intro material does re-appear later than that obscure Ordonez symphony 20 years earlier (again I have not heard or seen his piece).
What seems extraordinary to me in the 103 is the stark contrast between the sombre intro material and the main allegro (that apparently inspired the storm story). And the "double recurrence" once in a faster tempo when it is only a rather vague reminder and then in the original form.
This was one of the first 3 Haydn pieces I encountered as a teenager (the others were "the Clock" and "the Surprise" - my father had two LPs Dorati with 94/101 and the early HIP Collegium Aureum with 94/103) and it has been a favorite piece of mine ever since. While it lacks a "great" slow movement in the manner of 88 or 92 (or 99, 102 and some others), the andante/allegretto is also very original and maybe Haydn went for a more quirky than solemn movement on purpose because the slow introduction + recurrence had already covered such a sombre mood. The finale is also one of the most surprising creations, hardly fitting into any of the typical sonata-rondo molds (actually hardly any of Haydn's finales fits any preformed mold but this one even less than some others).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 12, 2017, 04:26:35 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 10, 2017, 02:28:30 PM
Isn't that a great symphony? Always been a favorite. Did you know, it's about a storm and a village church... >:D :D :D

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71kqpIqa7gL._SY355_.jpg)

#103

For the Allegro, I have no problem with the "Storm Outside and Bickering Inside the Village Church" program.

The Andante reminded me of my 4-year son's simulating marching in front of his toys lined up one after another behind him (which he did last Sunday).

The Menuetto: let the counts and dukes have their stately and stiff courtly dances, ordinary people will always have more fun over an unbuttoned laendler played on fiddles and accordions.

The Finale: Morningride during Sunrise.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 12, 2017, 04:29:49 AM

Well I have this disk:

[asin]B000CEVU44[/asin]

which has a C major symphony on it (#C2), although I can't tell from Brown's book whether it is the one he is talking about. Ordoñez is a very good composer, in the same class as Vanhal, perhaps. And like Vanhal, he did mostly sacred music. Anyway, he is one of those many names who were both popular and influential, right up till their death.

I very much agree with your perception of #103. It has a lot of contrasts, it's almost chiaroscuro. Your note about not fitting molds is part of what makes me laugh at the 19th century's ex post facto decision to try and define things like sonata form and somehow jar it up for popular consumption. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 12, 2017, 04:33:11 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 12, 2017, 04:29:49 AM
Well I have this disk:

[asin]B000CEVU44[/asin]

which has a C major symphony on it (#C2), although I can't tell from Brown's book whether it is the one he is talking about. Ordoñez is a very good composer, in the same class as Vanhal, perhaps. And like Vanhal, he did mostly sacred music. Anyway, he is one of those many names who were both popular and influential, right up till their death.

Some superb Sturm und Drang music on that CD. Highly recommended indeed.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on April 12, 2017, 05:43:55 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 12, 2017, 04:29:49 AM
Well I have this disk:

[asin]B000CEVU44[/asin]

which has a C major symphony on it (#C2), although I can't tell from Brown's book whether it is the one he is talking about. Ordoñez is a very good composer, in the same class as Vanhal, perhaps. And like Vanhal, he did mostly sacred music. Anyway, he is one of those many names who were both popular and influential, right up till their death.

I very much agree with your perception of #103. It has a lot of contrasts, it's almost chiaroscuro. Your note about not fitting molds is part of what makes me laugh at the 19th century's ex post facto decision to try and define things like sonata form and somehow jar it up for popular consumption. :)

8)

An unmistakable Spaniard surname. I noticed you wrote "von Ordoñez". Say the notes something about?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 12, 2017, 05:57:34 AM

Quote from: Gordo on April 12, 2017, 05:43:55 AM
Say the notes something about?

Nothing at all, not even the least suggestion he might have been of Spanish descent. The possibility is alluded here:

http://classicalsource.com/db_control/db_cd_review.php?id=3150 (http://classicalsource.com/db_control/db_cd_review.php?id=3150)

Grove online has this to say:

(b Vienna, bap. 16 Aug 1734; d Vienna, 6 Sept 1786). Austrian composer and violinist. Although an entry in Count Karl von Zinzendorf's diary (23 April 1775) describes him as the 'fils naturel de M. de Buquoy', the baptismal and other archival records describe him as the son of Johann Baptist Christoph von Ordonez – an infantry lieutenant and former owner of property in Neuschloss (now Nové Zámky), Moravia

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on April 12, 2017, 06:13:51 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 12, 2017, 05:57:34 AM
Nothing at all, not even the least suggestion he might have been of Spanish descent. The possibility is alluded here:

http://classicalsource.com/db_control/db_cd_review.php?id=3150 (http://classicalsource.com/db_control/db_cd_review.php?id=3150)

Grove online has this to say:

(b Vienna, bap. 16 Aug 1734; d Vienna, 6 Sept 1786). Austrian composer and violinist. Although an entry in Count Karl von Zinzendorf's diary (23 April 1775) describes him as the 'fils naturel de M. de Buquoy', the baptismal and other archival records describe him as the son of Johann Baptist Christoph von Ordonez – an infantry lieutenant and former owner of property in Neuschloss (now Nové Zámky), Moravia

Thanks, Andrei!

Quite curious, indeed. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 12, 2017, 06:15:54 AM

Quote from: Gordo on April 12, 2017, 05:43:55 AM
An unmistakable Spaniard surname. I noticed you wrote "von Ordoñez". Say the notes something about?

Quote from: Florestan on April 12, 2017, 05:57:34 AM
Nothing at all, not even the least suggestion he might have been of Spanish descent. The possibility is alluded here:

http://classicalsource.com/db_control/db_cd_review.php?id=3150 (http://classicalsource.com/db_control/db_cd_review.php?id=3150)

Grove online has this to say:

(b Vienna, bap. 16 Aug 1734; d Vienna, 6 Sept 1786). Austrian composer and violinist. Although an entry in Count Karl von Zinzendorf's diary (23 April 1775) describes him as the 'fils naturel de M. de Buquoy', the baptismal and other archival records describe him as the son of Johann Baptist Christoph von Ordonez – an infantry lieutenant and former owner of property in Neuschloss (now Nové Zámky), Moravia

What Florestan wrote is pretty much all I knew either. I have certainly seen the name with a tilde over the 'n', I think it is not shown here for two different reasons: the old debate about whether to accent upper-case letters, and the fact that some people don't know how to make one! ñ :D

In the early 18th century, the countries we now call Spain and Austria, along with many other discrete parts of Europe, were all part of the Habsburg possessions. Maria Theresia's father, Charles VI, was, for a time, the King of Spain. The point being that many modern families which we would call Spanish, Italian, Belgian, Hungarian etc, were, to each other, simply Habsburg vassals, and so we see a lot of nationalities turning up in Vienna. My guess would be this is what happened here.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 12, 2017, 06:23:07 AM

Whatever his ethnicity, the music is beautiful and moving.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on April 12, 2017, 06:25:08 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 12, 2017, 06:15:54 AM
What Florestan wrote is pretty much all I knew either. I have certainly seen the name with a tilde over the 'n', I think it is not shown here for two different reasons: the old debate about whether to accent upper-case letters, and the fact that some people don't know how to make one! ñ :D

It's a bit different:"n" and "ñ" are totally different letters, with different sound. For that reason "año" (year) and "ano" (anus) are completely different words. :D

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 12, 2017, 06:15:54 AM
What Florestan wrote is pretty much all I knew either. I have certainly seen the name with a tilde over the 'n', I think it is not shown here for two different reasons: the old debate about whether to accent upper-case letters, and the fact that some people don't know how to make one! ñ :D

In the early 18th century, the countries we now call Spain and Austria, along with many other discrete parts of Europe, were all part of the Habsburg possessions. Maria Theresia's father, Charles VI, was, for a time, the King of Spain. The point being that many modern families which we would call Spanish, Italian, Belgian, Hungarian etc, were, to each other, simply Habsburg vassals, and so we see a lot of nationalities turning up in Vienna. My guess would be this is what happened here.

8)

I totally agree: the world was quite different back then, even if "our romantics" think that things have always been the same. ;) :D ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 12, 2017, 06:33:56 AM

Quote from: Gordo on April 12, 2017, 06:25:08 AM
It's a bit different:"n" and "ñ" are totally different letters, with different sound. For that reason "año" (year) and "ano" (anus) are completely different words. :D

El año del ano, o el ano del año?

Quote
I totally agree: the world was quite different back then, even if "our romantics" think that things have always been the same. ;) :D ;D

Don't know who these romantics might be, but I certainly agree with the world being different back then --- there was a time when Haydn and Mozart were seriously thought of as romantics (please notice the small r, although in German it would have been capitalized...) and active officers delighted in the "fire and passion" of the former's music. :) :D ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 12, 2017, 08:17:26 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 12, 2017, 06:33:56 AM
El año del ano, o el ano del año?

Don't know who these romantics might be, but I certainly agree with the world being different back then --- there was a time when Haydn and Mozart were seriously thought of as romantics (please notice the small r, although in German it would have been capitalized...) and active officers delighted in the "fire and passion" of the former's music. :) :D ;D

But speaking of differences, it should be noted that, while they were called romantics by a very few (one?) critics, the word Classicist hadn't been invented yet, so it is hard to know what else they would have been called. Almost every term we use today to describe the musical periods of the past, hadn't been invented yet. Baroque, Classic, Romantic etc. My guess, and it is just that, is that they called themselves musicians, possibly modern musicians as opposed to "Antient" ones, which is a term they actually did use! :) Antient Musick. I love it! ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 12, 2017, 08:22:12 AM

So when we observe that Haydn and Mozart were seriously thought of as romantics, the term doesn't mean what we in the early 21^st century may be apt to think?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 12, 2017, 08:27:02 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 12, 2017, 08:22:12 AM
So when we observe that Haydn and Mozart were seriously thought of as romantics, the term doesn't mean what we in the early 21^st century may be apt to think?

:)

I have to say, I'm not really sure that the term meant to Brahms or Tchaikovsky what it mean to us in the 21st century. :D There are those who say that Sturm und Drang is the true precursor to eventual 'Romantic' music. I don't know, all that musicology stuff is hard on the old brain pan. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on April 12, 2017, 08:29:06 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 12, 2017, 06:15:54 AM
What Florestan wrote is pretty much all I knew either. I have certainly seen the name with a tilde over the 'n', I think it is not shown here for two different reasons: the old debate about whether to accent upper-case letters, and the fact that some people don't know how to make one! ñ :D

In the early 18th century, the countries we now call Spain and Austria, along with many other discrete parts of Europe, were all part of the Habsburg possessions. Maria Theresia's father, Charles VI, was, for a time, the King of Spain. The point being that many modern families which we would call Spanish, Italian, Belgian, Hungarian etc, were, to each other, simply Habsburg vassals, and so we see a lot of nationalities turning up in Vienna. My guess would be this is what happened here.

8)

The composer was at least one generation removed from Spain, possibly more. I would guess that the tilde, if it was there in his father's era, would have dropped out of sight, and the composer referred to as von Ordonez with no tilde: orthographic assimilation.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 12, 2017, 08:32:29 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 12, 2017, 08:29:06 AM
The composer was at least one generation removed from Spain, possibly more. I would guess that the tilde, if it was there in his father's era, would have dropped out of sight, and the composer referred to as von Ordonez with no tilde: orthographic assimilation.

Aye.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 12, 2017, 08:40:07 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 12, 2017, 08:17:26 AM
Antient Musicke.

Fixed. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on April 12, 2017, 08:49:12 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 12, 2017, 08:40:07 AM
Fixed. :D

That doesn't strike me as entirely appropriate as spelling conventions were less than fixed. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 20, 2017, 06:17:04 AM

https://is.muni.cz/el/1421/podzim2015/VH_804a/Hudebni_kultura_v_Haydnove_Vidni.pdf (https://is.muni.cz/el/1421/podzim2015/VH_804a/Hudebni_kultura_v_Haydnove_Vidni.pdf)

Interesting article on Haydn and his times.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 20, 2017, 07:28:51 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 20, 2017, 06:17:04 AM
https://is.muni.cz/el/1421/podzim2015/VH_804a/Hudebni_kultura_v_Haydnove_Vidni.pdf (https://is.muni.cz/el/1421/podzim2015/VH_804a/Hudebni_kultura_v_Haydnove_Vidni.pdf)

Interesting article on Haydn and his times.

Yes, that is a very interesting article. I recommend it. I got a lot of info about salons from that essay, hard to find anywhere else.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2017, 11:42:49 AM

I really have developed a taste for smaller works, I don't really think of them as small, In Haydn's case they contain a pretty big chunk of music in that small package. That's what I discovered this time. :)

Let's march and sing,
it's all the rage! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2017/04/1795-the-year-part-6-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on April 28, 2017, 05:08:18 PM

I like how you managed to get one of the two serpents at the exact center of the image.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2017, 05:25:54 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on April 28, 2017, 05:08:18 PM
I like how you managed to get one of the two serpents at the exact center of the image.

:D Thanks, people don't usually notice those little touches. Boy, finding a painting of a cavalry band was an all evening task!! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on April 29, 2017, 06:44:58 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2017, 05:25:54 PM
Boy, finding a painting of a cavalry band was an all evening task!! :)

8)

And well worth the time spent: a fascinating painting that I'd not seen before, illustrating a fascinating Haydn story I'd not heard before. 50 guineas! Wow.

The two marches are on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mE5IaE4KlU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xpa8AcnhWAA

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 29, 2017, 06:58:04 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on April 29, 2017, 06:44:58 AM
And well worth the time spent: a fascinating painting that I'd not seen before, illustrating a fascinating Haydn story I'd not heard before. 50 guineas! Wow.

The two marches are on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mE5IaE4KlU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xpa8AcnhWAA

Sarge

Thanks, Sarge, I had you in mind when I was writing that part, I know you like your marches as much as I do. The piano reductions of those marches are readily available, but the only orchestrated versions I have are on this disk. It is actually the same disk that the Youtube tracks are from. I bought it on sight, and was glad I did because it didn't hang around for long!

I justified going out of time on the painting because George IV was Prince of Wales when Haydn wrote that march for him. It was the best I could do, fortunately it worked out well! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 29, 2017, 08:21:41 AM

There are two other marches (Hob VIII:3 and Hob VIII3 bis) on the second disc of this box:

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0003/147/MI0003147950.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 29, 2017, 08:36:50 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 29, 2017, 08:21:41 AM
There are two other marches (Hob VIII:3 and Hob VIII3 bis) on the second disc of this box:

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0003/147/MI0003147950.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Yes, and they are excellent recordings too. I wish Huss had done a whole disk of marches (and dances). #3 is the Prince of Wales march mentioned a bit ago. 3bis is a reorchestration of it that Haydn did for the Royal Society of Musicians, he added several parts so it could be performed on stage by a chamber-sized orchestra. Other than the other disk I mentioned, and this one here, march recordings by orchestra are pretty darned hard to find! :-\ I think the whole bunch are available as piano reductions though, by Brautigam and Oort certainly, and probably several others who don't leap to mind right now. Same with dances, even ones that have available orchestral scores. :(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2017, 06:31:23 AM

Things been quiet in da Haus! ???

Meantime, I've been touring the Scottish Highlands and the mountains of Transylvania and just having a great time. Did you know that 18th century Londoners believed the Highlanders were cannibals? Strewth! Well, I couldn't provoke that behavior, but I did have a nice time. Here's what I discovered.

Dr. Haydn's Exotic Music Revue (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2017/05/1795-the-year-part-7-.html)

Check it out!
Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 24, 2017, 03:19:25 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2017, 06:31:23 AM
Things been quiet in da Haus! ???

Aye 8)

Another post of yours reminds me that it is probably time that I revisit the Van Swieten Trio . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 24, 2017, 04:23:25 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 24, 2017, 03:19:25 AM
Aye 8)

Another post of yours reminds me that it is probably time that I revisit the Van Swieten Trio . . . .

Always a worthwhile endeavor. I didn't traverse the cycle, but a goodly portion of it. Underrated. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on May 24, 2017, 07:37:40 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 21, 2017, 06:31:23 AM
Dr. Haydn's Exotic Music Revue (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2017/05/1795-the-year-part-7-.html)
Check it out!

The Austro-Hungarian army certainly had a novel way of recruiting! Thank god I didn't have to dance with my Captain and First Sergeant when I was a recruiter ;D

As always, Gurn, your latest post was a good and informative read.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 24, 2017, 08:20:47 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on May 24, 2017, 07:37:40 AM
The Austro-Hungarian army certainly had a novel way of recruiting! Thank god I didn't have to dance with my Captain and First Sergeant when I was a recruiter ;D

As always, Gurn, your latest post was a good and informative read.

Sarge

Thanks, Sarge. I also found it fascinating. One thing about writing on the history of a subject (any subject, really) is the tremendous number of things you discover that you never even suspected. There are some Youtubes of moderns doing these dances, Romanians actually, and they are pretty amazing. I got tired out just watching them! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 24, 2017, 08:48:59 AM

http://www.youtube.com/v/Hi-U-6IhO4M

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 24, 2017, 08:56:37 AM

Btw, Gurn

Quote from: Gurn BlanstonI often take Grove as gospel

In this case you shouldn't. They state that

Quote from: New Grove Dictionary of Music and MusiciansBefore the Austro-Hungarian imperial army instituted conscription in 1849

This is a mistake oftenly done, but for their academic level it is really inexcusable. The historical truth is that before 1867, the year the Emperor of Austria was also proclaimed King of Hungary, resulting in the creation of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, there was no Austro-Hungarian army. In 1849 there was only the Austrian imperial army.

The chronology is as follows:

800? -1806 The Holy Roman Empire
1804 -1867 The Austrian Empire
1867 -1918 The Austro-Hungarian Empire

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 24, 2017, 09:01:53 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 24, 2017, 08:48:59 AM
http://www.youtube.com/v/Hi-U-6IhO4M

Thanks, Karl. One of the few skills at GMG that I seem unable to master... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 24, 2017, 09:04:37 AM

Quote from: Florestan on May 24, 2017, 08:56:37 AM
Btw, Gurn

In this case you shouldn't. They state that

This is a mistake oftenly done, but for their academic level it is really inexcusable. The historical truth is that before 1867, the year the Emperor of Austria was also proclaimed King of Hungary, resulting in the creation of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, there was no Austro-Hungarian army. In 1849 there was only the Austrian imperial army.

The chronology is as follows:

800? -1806 The Holy Roman Empire
1804 -1867 The Austrian Empire
1867 -1918 The Austro-Hungarian Empire

Yes, you are very correct, although I couldn't change their quoted text. I did, however, point out that it was the Esterházy's that hired their own Hussars/Gypsies. Grove's expertise doesn't really extend far beyond music, and is not all-encompassing, even there. But I have a million dollars invested in them (gross exaggeration), so I have to use them sometimes. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 24, 2017, 09:17:30 AM

https://www.youtube.com/user/RomanianFolkDances/search?query=barbuncul (https://www.youtube.com/user/RomanianFolkDances/search?query=barbuncul)

The first six videos present bărbuncul, which is the Romanian version of verbunkos both as a dance and as a word.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 24, 2017, 09:19:24 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 24, 2017, 09:01:53 AM
Thanks, Karl. One of the few skills at GMG that I seem unable to master... :-\

8)

I just keep it as a text string, and copy for pasting as needed 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 24, 2017, 09:24:37 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 24, 2017, 09:19:24 AM
I just keep it as a text string, and copy for pasting as needed 8)

Hmmmm... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on June 05, 2017, 05:29:26 PM

I am finally listening to the Dorati set of FJH's operas. Looking over the track listings, I noticed an oddity: in those operas which have three acts, the third act is much shorter than than the other two. For instance, now I am listening to La Fedelta Premiata, which is about 2 hours 45 minutes in length. Act III is fifteen minutes long, meaning 1/11th of the opera.

Does anyone know the reason for this imbalance?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2017, 05:33:54 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 05, 2017, 05:29:26 PM
I am finally listening to the Dorati set of FJH's operas. Looking over the track listings, I noticed an oddity: in those operas which have three acts, the third act is much shorter than than the other two. For instance, now I am listening to La Fedelta Premiata, which is about 2 hours 45 minutes in length. Act III is fifteen minutes long, meaning 1/11th of the opera.

Does anyone know the reason for this imbalance?

I did some looking around on that subject when I first got into the operas a few years ago, what I was able to discover is that it was pretty much a standard thing for operas at the time to have a very short final act. I can't remember reading that there was a particular reason for it, just that it was like a coda at the end. I'll go back and see if I can find where I read that. I can say that it wasn't only Haydn's operas though, it was Italian operas in general.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2017, 05:54:48 PM

Almost all of Haydn's operas were of a form called dramma giocoso. This form is not like an opera seria (Armida was his only true opera seria), it is a mix between that and comic opera, opera buffa. This form was pioneered by Carlo Goldoni, among others. Haydn set at least 3 Goldoni operas, Le pescatrici, Lo speziale and Il mondo della luna. Up until his very last few operas, all of them were dramma giocoso, and all of them followed the pattern set by Goldoni. I steal this line from Wikipedia, although it isn't the first place I read it, just the easiest to find:

QuoteDramma giocoso (Italian, literally: drama with jokes; plural: drammi giocosi) is a genre of opera common in the mid-18th century. The term is a contraction of dramma giocoso per musica and describes the opera's libretto (text). The genre developed in the Neapolitan opera tradition, mainly through the work of the playwright Carlo Goldoni in Venice. A dramma giocoso characteristically used a grand buffo (comic or farce) scene as a dramatic climax at the end of an act. Goldoni's texts always consisted of two long acts with extended finales, followed by a short third act. Composers Baldassare Galuppi, Niccolò Piccinni, and Joseph Haydn set Goldoni's texts to music.

Anyway, that's a start. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on June 05, 2017, 06:14:15 PM

Thanks.

Perhaps Italian audiences expected a ballet or punchinella to round out the bill? Or wanted to get to the casino by 11 PM?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 05, 2017, 06:18:56 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 05, 2017, 06:14:15 PM
Thanks.

Perhaps Italian audiences expected a ballet or punchinella to round out the bill? Or wanted to get to the casino by 11 PM?

:D Perhaps all those things. Well, not the ballet, IIRC, that's a French thing. One doesn't automatically seize on the fact that the librettist was really in control of that sort of thing. Anyway, something like 8 or 9 out of 13 operas by Haydn were dramma giocoso. I think the Prince liked them. ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on June 07, 2017, 06:31:54 PM

Continuing with my traversal of Dorati's recording of the Esterhazy operas, tonight I am listening to La Vera Constanza, and I am very much reminded of a certain dude named Wolfgang as I listened, for the first time in this set.
Which made me wonder how much of Mozart's output would Haydn have known. So I turned to Wikipedia for dates, and found this

QuoteThe work was written for the Eszterházy court and first performed on 25 April 1779. It was revived there in April 1785 when Haydn apparently had to re-create much of the opera from memory, the original having been largely lost. It was given in Bratislava, Budapest, Vienna and Brno between 1786 and 1792 under the title Der flatterhafte Liebhaber.

Now, in 1779 Mozart was probably not very much on Haydn's radar. But by 1785 the two had met, and Mozart had written the first two of his operas which are heard with at least some regularity today: Idomeneo and Abduction from the Seraglio. Plus of many of the piano concertos and symphonies and chamber music.

So now I have a double question

First, was the original score "largely lost" as Wikipedia says.
Second, how faithful a reproduction of the original was Haydn's 1785 version? Might he have rewritten it and used some Mozartian influence picked up in the intervening years?

Even the Wikipedia article picks up on the Mozartian tinge

QuoteHaydn's finales for Acts 1 and 2 aspire to the Mozartian ideal in their attention to details of textual structure, characterization, location and stage events, pointing to Haydn's capable dramatic technique.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 07, 2017, 06:45:31 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 07, 2017, 06:31:54 PM
Continuing with my traversal of Dorati's recording of the Esterhazy operas, tonight I am listening to La Vera Constanza, and I am very much reminded of a certain dude named Wolfgang as I listened, for the first time in this set.
Which made me wonder how much of Mozart's output would Haydn have known. So I turned to Wikipedia for dates, and found this
Now, in 1779 Mozart was probably not very much on Haydn's radar. But by 1785 the two had met, and Mozart had written the first two of his operas which are heard with at least some regularity today: Idomeneo and Abduction from the Seraglio. Plus of many of the piano concertos and symphonies and chamber music.

So now I have a double question

First, was the original score "largely lost" as Wikipedia says.
Second, how faithful a reproduction of the original was Haydn's 1785 version? Might he have rewritten it and used some Mozartian influence picked up in the intervening years?

Even the Wikipedia article picks up on the Mozartian tinge

The only Mozart opera he could have possibly heard was Abduction from the Seraglio. Idomeneo was a Munich thing, it didn't get around and Haydn didn't do Munich. He didn't see any of the Da Ponte operas until 1790 (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/10/1790-the-year-part-1-.html). The Prince was only interested in Italian operas, I seriously doubt there was ever any staging of Abduction from the Seraglio at Eszterháza. Which is not to say he couldn't have seen it in Vienna.

The original of La Vera... was lost in the great fire of 1779 (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/10/1779-the-year-.html) when the opera house burned to the ground. Chances are that Haydn recreated it as nearly as possible to the original when they decided to stage it in 1785, although whatever new musical tricks he had learned in the meantime were probably used.

There has never been any assertion by anyone that there might have been any cross-pollination between the two of them operatically. I think what you are seeing is the common language of opera at the time, most especially Italian opera, which had very strict conventions regarding many things. Even though Mozart was innovative in many ways, he was still obliged to adhere to these conventions because his audience wouldn't have known what the hell he was talking about if they had been abandoned. Haydn too, of course. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on June 07, 2017, 07:02:31 PM

Thanks.

But the Mozartean flavor is much more apparent than in the operas I heard before this.
Or perhaps it's just in this opera, the characters are more than just stick figures acting out a stereotypical plot?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 08, 2017, 04:59:08 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 07, 2017, 07:02:31 PM
Thanks.

But the Mozartean flavor is much more apparent than in the operas I heard before this.
Or perhaps it's just in this opera, the characters are more than just stick figures acting out a stereotypical plot?

While Haydn never had a Da Ponte to write his libretti, sometimes there are pretty good ones out there. Puttini's effort is no slouch in its own right. Don't know how much background to the story you know, this was one of the first operas I went into culturally (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/10/1778-the-music-part-2.html) and I came away thinking that there really was a lot of depth in the characters, because the thing hinges on cultural aspects which were intentionally very emotional. Sometimes Haydn wasted a lot of great music trying to rescue a subpar libretto, but this time it was worth his efforts. ANd very popular for years after, albeit in German translation.

Gotta tell you, the stick figure thing was not uncommon. Most of the characters in operas of the time were intended to be allegories, not real people. The work was often aimed at a particular exalted person and the character was intended to represent him. So fleshing them out is not expected or even desirable. Lot of stuff going on there. I intend to devote a good bit of time to it when I find some more research material.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: BasilValentine on June 09, 2017, 05:04:56 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 07, 2017, 07:02:31 PM
Thanks.

But the Mozartean flavor is much more apparent than in the operas I heard before this.
Or perhaps it's just in this opera, the characters are more than just stick figures acting out a stereotypical plot?

While we see this era dominated by a few incomparable giants, 18thc composers lacked our hindsight. Perhaps Haydn was influenced by multiple minor figures and what we now might describe as a Mozartean flavor was part of a a more general stylistic evolution on which both Haydn and Mozart built?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 09, 2017, 05:43:41 AM

Quote from: BasilValentine on June 09, 2017, 05:04:56 AM
While we see this era dominated by a few incomparable giants, 18thc composers lacked our hindsight. Perhaps Haydn was influenced by multiple minor figures and what we now might describe as a Mozartean flavor was part of a a more general stylistic evolution on which both Haydn and Mozart built?

That is certainly the case, although your characterization of them as 'minor figures' would be laughed at if you had said it in, say, 1790. Italians like Guglielmi, Righini, Sarti, Piccini, Jomelli &c were the Kings of the Opera World. Mozart was a talented outsider with potential. Haydn was another outsider, very good though... In the opera world, both of them were 'minor figures', even Mozart, whose operas I love. Haydn's main job between ca 1774 and 1790 was Opera Impressario. He produced and directed literally hundreds of operas in that time. 125 in 1786 alone! You are unquestionably correct that both Haydn and Mozart built on a stylistic evolution.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 11, 2017, 02:25:21 PM

By coincidence, my 4th anniversary of blogging Haydn comes on the occasion of his final departure from London. So this week I wrapped up a great 5 years for him! Check it out!

Goodbye, Piccadilly... (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2017/06/1795-the-year-part-8-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on June 11, 2017, 03:02:03 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 11, 2017, 02:25:21 PM
By coincidence, my 4th anniversary of blogging Haydn comes on the occasion of his final departure from London. So this week I wrapped up a great 5 years for him! Check it out!

Goodbye, Piccadilly... (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2017/06/1795-the-year-part-8-.html)

Thanks,
8)

You start waxing poetic, huzzah! A very nice survey.

I finished my discovery of the Haydn operas this afternoon, btw, with "The World on the Moon". My favorite turned out to be Vera Constanza.

Title: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 11, 2017, 03:56:00 PM

Party on, gents!

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 11, 2017, 04:01:16 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 11, 2017, 03:02:03 PM
You start waxing poetic, huzzah! A very nice survey.

I finished my discovery of the Haydn operas this afternoon, btw, with "The World on the Moon". My favorite turned out to be Vera Constanza.

Thanks, Jeffrey. I am very pleased to know that my efforts have encouraged some people to explore Haydn who may perhaps not have done, or so they tell me. It makes the time and effort worthwhile.

La vera constanza is indeed excellent. Seriously, doesn't it surprise you just a little that such fine music has only been recorded that one time? Almost all of the others I have a second or third recording of, but that rascal is the Lone Ranger. Of course, I could use a 200th recording of ...Figaro ::)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on June 11, 2017, 04:26:37 PM

I went looking, hoping you were wrong. But you are correct. There is no complete recording beyond the Dorati.

But there is this, released this past January
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81hZrTtVgIL.jpg)

ASIN B017OK6656

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 11, 2017, 04:55:05 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 11, 2017, 04:26:37 PM
I went looking, hoping you were wrong. But you are correct. There is no complete recording beyond the Dorati.

But there is this, released this past January
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81hZrTtVgIL.jpg)

ASIN B017OK6656

Ha! Well that in itself is a big improvement. I would surmise it is the arias with no recitatives, which would thrill some people to death anyway. :) I'll have to check that out. I'm already a fan of La infedelta delusa, I have a very fine recording by Kuijken and La petite bande. No harm in having another though. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 11, 2017, 05:15:58 PM

What are people's opinions regarding Gunther Herbig's London Symphonies?

This set here:

[asin]B000084I3Y[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 11, 2017, 05:19:48 PM

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 11, 2017, 05:15:58 PM
What are people's opinions regarding Gunther Herbig's London Symphonies?

I'm sorry, I never heard them. Hopefully some here have though. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on June 11, 2017, 07:42:04 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 11, 2017, 02:25:21 PM
By coincidence, my 4th anniversary of blogging Haydn comes on the occasion of his final departure from London. So this week I wrapped up a great 5 years for him! Check it out!

Goodbye, Piccadilly... (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2017/06/1795-the-year-part-8-.html)

Thanks, Gurn for sharing your blog with us. All this information about Haydn's life added to my understanding of the man. And Haydn was a man worth knowing.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 11, 2017, 11:05:13 PM

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 11, 2017, 05:15:58 PM
What are people's opinions regarding Gunther Herbig's London Symphonies?

[asin]B000084I3Y[/asin]

It is surprisingly good, a real bargain at the typical prices it goes for. Do not expect something "challenging" but it is well played (with beautiful and prominent woodwinds), well recorded, the interpretations are lively (except for the menuets but they are too staid for me on almost all pre-HIP (and many HIP!) recordings and Herbig is not worse than others), the "lesser" Dresden Orchestra overall plays very well. I don't know all that many (and fewer complete) recordings of the London symphonies but among the ones I have heard this is a very good "middle of the road" version, far from the excentricities of Harnoncourt, Scherchen and occasionally Bernstein. (The sound is also better than Dorati, Bernstein or Jochum, I think)
Probably Jochum (I only have one disc of his DG set) or Davis (who I have not heard) are the more frequently recommended "traditional" choices for the London set. But I can recommend Herbig without reservations, unless you want something "edgy". I guess I can generally agree with the gist of the 3 comments on amazon.com.

Edit: I listened to 96-98 last night and my impression fit with what I wrote above. The amazon reviewer who remarked on the fast tempo for 98/1 is right, that movement might feel a little lightweight for some but others will prefer the fleet reading. You will not get HIP level prominence of brass and timpani but overall I think sound and balances are quite good.
If you search the google groups archive you will find some (generally positive) comments by rather critical Haydn nuts.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 12, 2017, 04:38:26 AM

Quote from: Old Listener on June 11, 2017, 07:42:04 PM
Thanks, Gurn for sharing your blog with us. All this information about Haydn's life added to my understanding of the man. And Haydn was a man worth knowing.

Thanks, OL. This is exactly how I feel about it too. I haven't taken the time to really learn things about composers before, but I am glad I have been doing it with Haydn. He really was a man of his (most interesting) time.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 12, 2017, 05:06:04 AM

As one who has enjoyed learning about many a composer, I salute thee and express lasting admiration for the accomplishment of thine bloggue!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 12, 2017, 05:27:32 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 12, 2017, 05:06:04 AM
As one who has enjoyed learning about many a composer, I salute thee and express lasting admiration for the accomplishment of thine bloggue!

Thy gratitude gratifies me greatly and thy salutary gesture humbles me, even unto the very ground. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on June 12, 2017, 08:19:11 AM

(http://c3.cduniverse.ws/resized/630x630/music/582/9400582.jpg)

Get the whole thing on MP3 for $9.99. (http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=9400582&style=music)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 12, 2017, 09:47:59 AM

Quote from: George on June 12, 2017, 08:19:11 AM
(http://c3.cduniverse.ws/resized/630x630/music/582/9400582.jpg)

Get the whole thing on MP3 for $9.99. (http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=9400582&style=music)

You'll never get a better offer than that! :)

8)

Title: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 12, 2017, 11:38:43 AM

No foolin'!

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: ritter on June 12, 2017, 11:59:24 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 11, 2017, 04:01:16 PM
Thanks, Jeffrey. I am very pleased to know that my efforts have encouraged some people to explore Haydn who may perhaps not have done, or so they tell me. It makes the time and effort worthwhile.

La vera constanza is indeed excellent. Seriously, doesn't it surprise you just a little that such fine music has only been recorded that one time?

We had the chamce to see La vera costanza fully staged here in Madrid some 7 or 8 years ago, conducted by Jesús López-Cobos, and it was a real treat. I invited several friends, as I was celebrating my birthday around those days, and they (all newcomers to opera) were delighted.

Che burrasca! Che tempesta! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 12, 2017, 12:28:30 PM

Quote from: ritter on June 12, 2017, 11:59:24 AM
We had the chamce to see La vera costanza fully staged here in Madrid some 7 or 8 years ago, conducted by Jesús López-Cobos, and it was a real treat. I invited several friends, as I was celebrating my birthday around those days, and they (all newcomers to opera) were delighted.

Che burrasca! Che tempesta! :)

Cool! I haven't seen any in person, the only ones I know for sure have been staged (since I have them on DVD) are Orlando paladino and Il mondo della luna. Both are all jazzed up and modern, but the music, of course, is just as it should be. I would very much like to see nearly any of them. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 20, 2017, 05:27:39 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 11, 2017, 04:26:37 PM
I went looking, hoping you were wrong. But you are correct. There is no complete recording beyond the Dorati.

But there is this, released this past January
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81hZrTtVgIL.jpg)

ASIN B017OK6656

So I'm listening to this right now, it is a very nice performance, very good singing. Not used to listening to these arias without any recitatives, but I could get used to it if I had to! :) The La Vera... has a lot more clarity than I was getting out of the Dorati. Modern sound recording can't be beat. ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on June 25, 2017, 07:53:02 PM

While traversing the Hogwood Haydn symphonies set, I have come to Symphony 72. What solo instrument is duetting with the flute in the Andante? I don't have a score, and my ears are not sure if it's a viola.

Whatever the answer, it's an exquisite movement. As is the slow movement of 13, with its cello concertante.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 25, 2017, 10:37:30 PM

It is a solo violin that has its own stave throughout the movement.
(If not in the US one can access the score at IMSLP)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on June 26, 2017, 11:48:31 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on June 25, 2017, 10:37:30 PM
It is a solo violin that has its own stave throughout the movement.
(If not in the US one can access the score at IMSLP)

Thanks. Then whatever instrument Hogwood's violinist uses was rather dark toned. At one point I thought it might be a 'cello.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 26, 2017, 11:48:40 PM

Quote from: George on June 12, 2017, 08:19:11 AM
(http://c3.cduniverse.ws/resized/630x630/music/582/9400582.jpg)

Get the whole thing on MP3 for $9.99. (http://www.cduniverse.com/productinfo.asp?pid=9400582&style=music)

D'oh went to snap it up and got the message "download not available in your country". Australian $$s not good enough for them?

>:(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 27, 2017, 12:10:40 AM

Most mp3 bargains are US only. (At least I have had that experience.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on June 27, 2017, 04:25:41 AM

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on June 26, 2017, 11:48:40 PM
D'oh went to snap it up and got the message "download not available in your country". Australian $$s not good enough for them?

>:(

Wow, that sucks! Sorry to hear that, I had no idea.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 27, 2017, 04:31:41 AM

I'm grateful for the reminder . . . I've paid for the set, but have not yet succeeded in downloading my purchase . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2017, 04:32:43 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on June 26, 2017, 11:48:31 AM
Thanks. Then whatever instrument Hogwood's violinist uses was rather dark toned. At one point I thought it might be a 'cello.

Yes, it really is playing near the bottom end of its range in several places, like right at the beginning. It was interesting to go way back to ~1763 and hear this work again, which is more famous for its 4 horns than for that wonderful Andante! Thanks for the nudge. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2017, 04:34:57 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on June 27, 2017, 12:10:40 AM
Most mp3 bargains are US only. (At least I have had that experience.)

At least, they are only certain to be available in their country of origin. I have tried a couple of times to buy download specials from Amazon UK and had similar experiences. Always discouraging, especially since one can hardly tell what the rationale might be. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on June 27, 2017, 04:48:05 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2017, 04:34:57 AM
At least, they are only certain to be available in their country of origin. I have tried a couple of times to buy download specials from Amazon UK and had similar experiences. Always discouraging, especially since one can hardly tell what the rationale might be. :-\

8)

I suspect it has to do with licensing.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2017, 05:44:08 AM

Quote from: George on June 27, 2017, 04:48:05 AM
I suspect it has to do with licensing.

Oh yes, no doubt about it. It's just that the licensing rules don't make sense. But then, what copyright rules do? ::)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on June 27, 2017, 10:19:23 AM

Quote from: George on June 27, 2017, 04:48:05 AM
I suspect it has to do with licensing.

It is a very broad problem. The copywriter holder gives a certain entity the license to sell content in one country only. The worst comes for things kept "in the cloud" since they will typically cut off you access to content if you find it necessary to change your country designations. Had that problem with iTunes and Amazon.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 27, 2017, 02:08:25 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2017, 05:44:08 AM
Oh yes, no doubt about it. It's just that the licensing rules don't make sense. But then, what copyright rules do? ::)

8)

Makes about as much sense as it would for our local supermarket to say "sorry you can't buy those, you're wearing the wrong colour sweater".

;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 30, 2017, 11:07:17 PM

Welcome to the online world, where the illusion of a single globe often collapses when you try to consume media. There are still in fact a couple of hundred separate countries.

Comfort yourself with the knowledge that buying a CD from overseas is much easier and will deliver better sound than most MP3s (a format, designed for small file size when internet speeds were far slower, which really should die).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 02, 2017, 05:09:17 PM

Well, it took me nearly as long to get through England as it took Haydn in real life! But now we are back in Vienna, and what a difference a year or two can make! Have a look at what Haydn had to settle down into when he got home, he might have wished he stayed in London! :)

Umm, there's a guy hanging out there... :-\ (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2017/07/1795-the-year-part-9.html)

Thanks
8)

Title: Alright, how many Symphony 54s are there?
Post by: kishnevi on July 08, 2017, 07:06:23 PM

Going through the Hogwood Haydn set, I have come to Symphony 54 in G: First version. With an extra Minuet/Trio in C and extra Finale in C, both parenthetically dated to 1773-74. Symphony 54 in G: Second version appears three CDs down the road.

There are, of course, no pertinent liner notes included, so I am left befuddled. There are two or three symphonies numbered 54, and no explanation of why.

Enlighten me, please!

Title: Re: Alright, how many Symphony 54s are there?
Post by: Jo498 on July 09, 2017, 12:59:18 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 08, 2017, 07:06:23 PM
Going through the Hogwood Haydn set, I have come to Symphony 54 in G: First version. With an extra Minuet/Trio in C and extra Finale in C, both parenthetically dated to 1773-74. Symphony 54 in G: Second version appears three CDs down the road.

There are, of course, no pertinent liner notes included, so I am left befuddled. There are two or three symphonies numbered 54, and no explanation of why.

Enlighten me, please!

I think we had this already at some stage, try to search the forum or have a look at Gurn's website. I can't imagine he has not covered it.
I think I have the original volume with the liner notes but right now I do not have the leisure to look it up. They are not different symphonies (only intro and/or instrumentation changed) and I seem to recall that the fragment (minuet + finale) had nothing to do with 54 in the end.

Title: Re: Alright, how many Symphony 54s are there?
Post by: kishnevi on July 09, 2017, 12:34:02 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on July 09, 2017, 12:59:18 AM
I think we had this already at some stage, try to search the forum or have a look at Gurn's website. I can't imagine he has not covered it.
I think I have the original volume with the liner notes but right now I do not have the leisure to look it up. They are not different symphonies (only intro and/or instrumentation changed) and I seem to recall that the fragment (minuet + finale) had nothing to do with 54 in the end.

Thanks to Gurn, I have a partial answer. Your memory is correct. (Version 2 has a larger instrumentarium.)

So we know what Haydn did here, at least.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 09, 2017, 01:47:07 PM

The Symphonic Repertoire; Volume 2: The First Golden Age of the Viennese Symphony by A. Peter Brown

p. 153
"Symphony #54 is transmitted in 3 versions. In its autograph first version, the slow introduction to the first movement is missing and the scoring is for 2 oboes, bassoon, 2 horns & strings. Later, the slow introduction was added (1776??) and perhaps a second bassoon and timpani parts. Landon believes that the flute and trumpet parts were added for performance in London. As a result, depending on what version of the instrumentation is used, the symphony's sound can be that of the 1770's or perhaps the 1790's."

Now, some comments about that just on my own. The second bassoon would not have been in the first version because they didn't have two bassoons then. By 1776 he did have a second bassoon, and so he added in a part. I am in the camp that goes for all the changes being made in 1776, that is, the Maestoso introduction and the added instrumentation. Landon committed to that idea sort of in reverse. "An older symphony" was played at one of the 1795 concerts, and although it was not identified, Landon worked out that it could well have been #54, especially since it had circulated in London years before. So he calculated that maybe the finishing 'dress-up' occurred then. I don't think so, I (and most others) think it was fixed up in 1776, and it served the purpose of being used in London, if indeed it was. Occam's Razor tells me so. I think he fixed it up in 1776 because he had a use for it, wanted it to be fancier and he had an idea which he effected. Simple as that. :) I like vers. 1 but I have to say, I like vers. 2 better!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on July 09, 2017, 06:32:56 PM

Thanks. I would be hesitant to say #54 was the "older" symphony played in London, simply because I think Haydn would have preferred to give his audience something they had never heard before.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 09, 2017, 07:13:03 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on July 09, 2017, 06:32:56 PM
Thanks. I would be hesitant to say #54 was the "older" symphony played in London, simply because I think Haydn would have preferred to give his audience something they had never heard before.

Well, there is no doubt that an old one was played, the thing is what had they heard and what not? There were a heck of a lot of the ones from the 1770's that were published in London, most of which Haydn didn't even know about. One popular favorite was 'The Imperial' (#53 Hoboken), for example, which is from 1778 or so, and one of the others in the 50's (51??). This wasn't at a Salomon Concert, it was at a benefit, I think. Maybe the one for 'decayed musicians'. The Londoners were funny about things like 'novelty'. Some things, they never got tired of and they would last on the stage for years. Others, once was enough, even if it was a work we consider great. So I am certainly willing to accept an older symphony, I'm just not wanting to attribute this major rewrite, which would be the second one if true, to 1794-95. The situation just doesn't demand it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on July 10, 2017, 12:42:34 AM

What about the pre-Paris batch that had been written with London in mind?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 10, 2017, 04:36:36 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on July 10, 2017, 12:42:34 AM
What about the pre-Paris batch that had been written with London in mind?

The first 3... (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/12/1782-the-music-part-1-.html)
The second 3. (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/02/1784-the-music-part-1-.html)

I included the known publication history in these essays, they were published in Paris, but not officially offered to a London publisher, as far as I can see. Which doesn't mean they didn't get published anyway, only that Haydn didn't get paid for it.

I have never speculated on what that 'old symphony' may have been so I can't offer a reasonable guess, or at least, not one more reasonable than Landon's. I'm sure he had some reason for choosing that one, although it wouldn't be as simple as saying "it was in G major", since I never have seen that phrase used in relation to a symphony in London, it would make things too simple. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: ritter on July 10, 2017, 01:03:46 PM

Only tangetially related to Haydn, but this might be of interest to haydnians (if not, I apolgize for the intrusion :-[). Today I've revisited a recording I've owned for decades, and hadn't listened to in a long time:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51jlwYgam4L._SY355_.jpg)

In 1909, to celebrate the centennial of Haydn's death, the French music periodical S.I.M. commissioned 6 leading French composers of the day to produce short piano hommages to the Austrian composer, using a theme based on his name (which, by repeating the sequence A-H [for B]-C-D-E-F-G along the alphabet, turns out to be B-A-D-D-G). The composers who contributed were Debussy, Dukas, Hahn, d'Indy, Ravel and Widor. The resulting Hommage à Joseph Haydn is a quite charming set. Probably the best known piece is Ravel's (a small gem IMHO), and the only one who actually tries to emulate Haydn is Reynaldo Hahn, with a rather quaint pastiche. Widor's fugue sounds more bachian than anything else (and very academic, at that), but Dukas's Prélude élégiaque is exactly that, very elegiac (disarmingly so).

Regards,

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 10, 2017, 02:37:42 PM

Quote from: ritter on July 10, 2017, 01:03:46 PM
Only tangetially related to Haydn, but this might be of interest to Haydnians (if not, I apolgize for the intrusion :-[). Today I've revisited a recording I've owned for decades, and hadn't listened to in a long time:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51jlwYgam4L._SY355_.jpg)

In 1909, to celebrate the centennial of Haydn's death, the French music periodical S.I.M. commissioned 6 leading French composers of the day to produce short piano hommages to the Austrian composer, using a theme based on his name (which, by repeating the sequence A-H [for B]-C-D-E-F-G along the alphabet, turns out to be B-A-D-D-G). The composers who contributed were Debussy, Dukas, Hahn, d'Indy, Ravel and Widor. The resulting Hommage à Joseph Haydn is a quite charming set. Probably the best known piece is Ravel's (a small gem IMHO), and the only who actually tries to emulate Haydn is Reynaldo Hahn, with a rather quaint pastiche. Widor's fugue sounds more bachian than anything else (and very academic, at that), but Dukas's Prélude élégiaque is exactly that, very elegiac (disarmingly so).

Regards,

Cool, thanks! I have heard the Ravel, but not the others. You're right, it IS a little gem! Looks interesting, thanks for the recommendation. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on July 10, 2017, 10:13:02 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 10, 2017, 04:36:36 AM
The first 3... (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/12/1782-the-music-part-1-.html)
The second 3. (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/02/1784-the-music-part-1-.html)

I included the known publication history in these essays, they were published in Paris, but not officially offered to a London publisher, as far as I can see. Which doesn't mean they didn't get published anyway, only that Haydn didn't get paid for it.

I have never speculated on what that 'old symphony' may have been so I can't offer a reasonable guess, or at least, not one more reasonable than Landon's. I'm sure he had some reason for choosing that one, although it wouldn't be as simple as saying "it was in G major", since I never have seen that phrase used in relation to a symphony in London, it would make things too simple. :)

Thanks for the links to your articles. I read them again and played the Fischer recordings of 76 and 77. 76-81 are all favorites of mine.

Your comments on these symphonies made me think about Haydn's sustaining his creativity over his long career.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 11, 2017, 04:43:03 AM

Quote from: Old Listener on July 10, 2017, 10:13:02 PM
Thanks for the links to your articles. I read them again and played the Fischer recordings of 76 and 77. 76-81 are all favorites of mine.

Your comments on these symphonies made me think about Haydn's sustaining his creativity over his long career.

Thanks for reading them. I really like those works, and so I tried to make their stories interesting, but it was challenging because not only are they not played often, they are also not written about very much either! That period in Haydn's life was one of his most creative, as he was switching his focus from pleasing the Prince to pleasing the world at large. I would say he was successful with that... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on July 11, 2017, 05:15:51 AM

So do I correctly understand that there is no indication that Haydn played any of 76-81 in London and we simply have no real clue which one the unknown symphony some take to have been #54 was?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 11, 2017, 08:12:46 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on July 11, 2017, 05:15:51 AM
So do I correctly understand that there is no indication that Haydn played any of 76-81 in London and we simply have no real clue which one the unknown symphony some take to have been #54 was?

Yes. As for 54, Landon says "I believe it was...", which is hedging his bets, I'm sure. He is pretty damn good at tracking things down, but sometimes there just isn't enough evidence to be sure. IIRC, this one came from a newspaper review, which only said that "the band played an old symphony of Haydn...". Landon may be making a circular argument. He knows they played an old symphony, he knows that #54 was updated in a style that would have made it playable in London, and that Haydn did update some works in just that way, and so he inserts #54 in that spot. It isn't the sort of scholarship he normally employed, but he does make sure to say "could have been...".

I have found it quite frustrating to try and sort some of this stuff out. There really doesn't exist enough information to be sure of a lot of it. That is one of the reasons it takes me so long to get out a new essay these days; I spend a lot of time trying to verify things. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 11, 2017, 08:13:51 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 11, 2017, 08:12:46 AM
Yes. As for 54, Landon says "I believe it was...", which is hedging his bets, I'm sure. He is pretty damn good at tracking things down, but sometimes there just isn't enough evidence to be sure. IIRC, this one came from a newspaper review, which only said that "the band played an old symphony of Haydn...". Landon may be making a circular argument. He knows they played an old symphony, he knows that #54 was updated in a style that would have made it playable in London, and that Haydn did update some works in just that way, and so he inserts #54 in that spot. It isn't the sort of scholarship he normally employed, but he does make sure to say "could have been...".

I have found it quite frustrating to try and sort some of this stuff out. There really doesn't exist enough information to be sure of a lot of it. That is one of the reasons it takes me so long to get out a new essay these days; I spend a lot of time trying to verify things. :-\

8)

Aye, and we appreciate your researches.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 11, 2017, 08:14:41 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 11, 2017, 08:13:51 AM
Aye, and we appreciate your researches.

Thank you, kind sir. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on July 11, 2017, 09:06:57 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 11, 2017, 08:13:51 AM
Aye, and we appreciate your researches.

+ 1

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on July 19, 2017, 09:02:59 PM

Anyone else interested in the new Chiaroscuro Quartet op 20?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 23, 2017, 02:45:52 PM

1796 was a huge year for Haydn. One thing he discovered was among the disadvantages of living long and spending time away: everyone he knew was pretty much dead or gone, except his beloved Missus. I'm just starting out on the year, trying to get a grip, so to say. Here's what I'v learned so far.

Pretty much starting over... (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2017/07/1796-the-year-part-1.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 03, 2017, 04:48:28 AM

If we Haydnistas listen to only one of the 17 Weinberg string quartets, that quartet is the Eighth (1959) one of whose recurring motives is (I cannot help feeling) a subtle, haunting echo of "Papa's" 94^th Symphony. Give it a try, and tell me if you think I'm bonkers (I mean, in terms of this claim):

http://www.youtube.com/v/TX0iyydibqg

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 05, 2017, 03:09:07 PM

Where to recommend some excellent Haydn played on a fortepiano (copy) that sounds like a true fortepiano, played by an obscure Dutch keyboardist (now dead) and recorded on a tiny label? :) 8)

[asin]B004FNC484[/asin]

Quote
An appealing new Haydn recording by the Dutch fortepiano specialist Leen de Broekert. This CD includes:

Capriccio in G (Hob. XVII: 1)
The Capriccio in G major dates from 1765. The piece is written in rondo form and, like C. Ph. E. Bach's rondos, it evolves from a single motif. This theme is the folksong Acht Sauschneider müssen seyn: "If you have to geld a boar you need eight people. Two in front, two at the back, two to hold the beast, one to tie him up, one to handle the knife." The piece starts in a simple and naïve way, but in due course it takes the form of a brilliant, compelling improvisation, culminating towards the end in a dramatic fermata, which leads to an inevitable cadenza. The many sequences lend an undeniably baroque flavor to the whole of it.

Andante con Variazioni (Hob. XVII:6)
In 1793 Marianne von Genzinger dies. It is very well possible that Haydn wrote the Andante con Variazioni in reaction to the loss of the woman for whom he felt such an extremely deep sympathy. In the autograph the work is described as Sonata, which probably indicates that the composer planned to write other movements as well. Haydn uses for this piece his favourite double variation formula: two themes – one in the minor, one in the major key – undergo a parallel metamorphosis. Towards the end Haydn drops the caesura marks that separate the minor theme from the major one. Focusing on the dotted rhythm of the initial motif the composer works, as if in the development section of a sonata, towards an exciting climax.

Leen de Broekert (1949-2009) studied Piano and Organ at the Royal Academy of Music in The Hague. He graduated in both subjects. He also qualified as a harpsichord player and fortepianist with Jos van Immerseel. In 1979 he was one of the laureates of the International Contest for Organ in Bruges, with an honourable citation for his Interpretation of Bach. As a fortepianist and organist he was frequently asked for concerts in Germany as well as in Holland. He also performed in England, France, Belgium, Sweden, Austria, Italy and Switzerland and recorded several CDs both on pianoforte and organ. Leen de Broekert was the organist of the Koorkerk (Abbey church) in Middelburg. He died, at the age of sixty, after a short illness, in Middelburg on 29 July 2009.

http://www.zefirrecords.nl/album/5f8b4bbc5e7b1381774/leen-de-broekert_haydn-pianoworks.html

http://www.leendebroekert.nl/cd1.html

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 05, 2017, 03:12:25 PM

Quote from: Gordo on August 05, 2017, 03:09:07 PM
Where to recommend some excellent Haydn played on a fortepiano (copy) that sounds like a true fortepiano, played by an obscure Dutch keyboardist (now dead) and recorded on a tiny label? :) 8)

[asin]B004FNC484[/asin]

http://www.zefirrecords.nl/album/5f8b4bbc5e7b1381774/leen-de-broekert_haydn-pianoworks.html

http://www.leendebroekert.nl/cd1.html

I can't imagine a place for it, but go ahead and try it here and see what happens. ...........

Oops, hope they had more than 1 copy, I just bought that one... :D

(Thanks, Gordo) ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 05, 2017, 03:18:59 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 05, 2017, 03:12:25 PM
I can't imagine a place for it, but go ahead and try it here and see what happens. ...........

Oops, hope they had more than 1 copy, I just bought that one... :D

(Thanks, Gordo) ;)

8)

My pleasure, dear Gurn! :D ;D :D

Did you notice the link to the Capriccio in G? You will get a good idea of the style and sound...

PS: I mean this one

http://www.leendebroekert.nl/cd1.html

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 05, 2017, 03:33:16 PM

Quote from: Gordo on August 05, 2017, 03:18:59 PM
My pleasure, dear Gurn! :D ;D :D

Did you notice the link to the Capriccio in G? You will get a good idea of the style and sound...

PS: I mean this one

http://www.leendebroekert.nl/cd1.html

I hadn't seen it, but am playing it now. Nice resonant instrument, I like the sound. His style with that Capriccio is all his own, too often they all sound the same, which I don't think was the original intention. Nice! :) I haven't got a new solo keyboard disk in a long time, not that I have them all, I don't suppose, but the remainers are thin on the ground. Last one I got was this, which I highly recommend. I had to buy it from Amazon UK though, not sold here (at that time).

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 05, 2017, 03:47:18 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 05, 2017, 03:33:16 PM
I hadn't seen it, but am playing it now. Nice resonant instrument, I like the sound. His style with that Capriccio is all his own, too often they all sound the same, which I don't think was the original intention. Nice! :) I haven't got a new solo keyboard disk in a long time, not that I have them all, I don't suppose, but the remainers are thin on the ground. Last one I got was this, which I highly recommend. I had to buy it from Amazon UK though, not sold here (at that time).

8)

Interesting. Irving's name sounds quite familiar... Probably, I saw it as author of some books on Mozart.

This disk looks very enticing, too:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51vgs-%2BE6dL.jpg)

Unfortunately not available on Amazon. :(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 05, 2017, 05:22:43 PM

Quote from: Gordo on August 05, 2017, 03:47:18 PM
Interesting. Irving's name sounds quite familiar... Probably, I saw it as author of some books on Mozart.

This disk looks very enticing, too:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51vgs-%2BE6dL.jpg)

Unfortunately not available on Amazon. :(

True in all cases. He did write at least 2 books on playing Mozart keyboard works, which I would like to have. That disk DOES like very enticing indeed, and it isn't available in the US. I may well order it from the UK when the time is right. We follow each other on Twitter, I have 'spoken' with him a couple of times, seems like a nice fellow. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 05, 2017, 06:29:22 PM

London Haydn Quartet - just bought their Op. 54/55 release, below posted a few days ago in the listening thread - continues my collection of their output - as expected, excellent performances and ready for the next release! :) Dave

Quote from: SonicMan46 on August 02, 2017, 12:00:54 PM
Haydn, Joseph - String Quartets, Op. 54/55 w/ the London Haydn Quartet - a continuation of their chronological exploration of Papa's SQs - this 2CD set recorded in November 2015 - I own all up to this point and suspect the next one soon; attached are three reviews, two excellent and one somewhat unexpected from AllMusic (the reviewer has downrated a number of the other SQ releases of this group, esp. Op. 33). Dave :)

(http://londonhaydnquartet.co.uk/images/op-54-55.jpg) (http://img.theepochtimes.com/n3/eet-content/uploads/2016/01/10/London-Haydn-Quartet-credit_Giorgia-Bertazzi.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 05, 2017, 07:11:14 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on August 05, 2017, 06:29:22 PM
London Haydn Quartet - just bought their Op. 54/55 release, below posted a few days ago in the listening thread - continues my collection of their output - as expected, excellent performances and ready for the next release! :) Dave

Hey, Dave, yes, that is a very fine set, and indeed, the entire seems to be building momentum as it goes along. Certainly looking forward to Opus 64, maybe this winter (54/55 actually came out in the US back in late February or early March, IIRC). It would be so fine to finally have an entire set by someone to supplement my Festetics set. It takes dedication to do the whole cycle! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 10, 2017, 11:07:27 PM

I downloaded this disk the other day:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51hF2bAkCWL._AC_US218_.jpg)

I knew beforehand that the story was that the performer, Klöcker, had three MSs of C18 clarinet concertos, two double concertos from the early classical period, and one later, solo concerto that was obviously written after Mozart's Clarinet Concerto (because it almost quotes it). Klöcker maintains that all three are by Haydn, but no-one else thinks they are, and also the late concerto doesn't sound like it was written by the same composer as the earlier two.

I found the two double concertos to be very agreeable works, and the later one to be really very good. Granted it isn't by Haydn the question then arises who is it by? I listened to a few other recordings of 1790s concertos (for various instruments) that I had and it actually sound quite like Eberl's style. But I guess we'll probably never know.

Still it's a disk worth buying and getting to know.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 16, 2017, 02:49:55 PM

Well, it's about dang time (I made the purchase 12 June) but I have at last managed to download the Festetics set.

Quite possibly the best $10 I've spent this year.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on August 16, 2017, 04:47:49 PM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 16, 2017, 02:49:55 PM
Well, it's about dang time (I made the purchase 12 June) but I have at last managed to download the Festetics set.

Quite possibly the best $10 I've spent this year.

Well done! $:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 16, 2017, 04:57:11 PM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 16, 2017, 02:49:55 PM
Well, it's about dang time (I made the purchase 12 June) but I have at last managed to download the Festetics set.

Quite possibly the best $10 I've spent this year.

I can believe that! Especially since I paid in excess of $270 for the 9 little box sets the originals came in... :-\ That's what you get for buying something OOP. Yet, I felt like it was good money paid, too, so it's good::good. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 16, 2017, 05:13:20 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 16, 2017, 04:57:11 PM
I can believe that! Especially since I paid in excess of $270 for the 9 little box sets the originals came in... :-\ That's what you get for buying something OOP. Yet, I felt like it was good money paid, too, so it's good::good. :)

8)

These, and the Weinberg quartets, are the beginning of a second flash drive for use in the car ....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 18, 2017, 09:49:12 AM

Quote below just posted in the 'listening thread' - for those interested in the London Haydn Quartet's projected release of the Op. 64 SQs - Dave :)

Quote from: Dee Sharp on August 17, 2017, 08:32:17 AM
Haydn: String quartets op. 33. London Haydn Quartet. Bright and lively performances.

(http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0003/652/MI0003652342.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81bC6hlUL%2BL._SL1417_.jpg)

Just purchased the Haydn London Quartet's Op. 54/55 SQs (inserted above), and was wondering about the next release? So, checked their website HERE (http://londonhaydnquartet.co.uk); the email 'contact person' is Catherine Manson - she responded to my email request, as shown below - looks like about a year's wait. Dave :)

QuoteHello and many thanks for your email. I am always delighted to hear that the recordings are reaching an enthusiastic audience. We will record the op 64 quartets later this year so I hope they will be out next summer. I wish we could speed up the time between discs but it always takes a while. However, we're getting there slowly but surely!

all very best wishes,

Catherine

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 18, 2017, 09:53:59 AM

Thanks for cross-posting here, Dave. Those discs would be a temptation, except I have just got the Festetics set downloaded, and to them I must for the nonce be true 0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on August 18, 2017, 10:08:54 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 18, 2017, 09:53:59 AM
Thanks for cross-posting here, Dave. Those discs would be a temptation, except I have just got the Festetics set downloaded, and to them I must for the nonce be true 0:)

I can confirm that The London Haydn Quartet's recordings of the Opp. 50, 54 & 55 quartets are excellent. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 18, 2017, 10:26:32 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 18, 2017, 09:53:59 AM
Thanks for cross-posting here, Dave. Those discs would be a temptation, except I have just got the Festetics set downloaded, and to them I must for the nonce be true 0:)

Hi Karl - well, like Papa's Symphonies, can a 'true' lover of Haydn just live w/ one set of the String Quartets? :o ;D

For myself, I have the Buchberger Quartet Brilliant box (probably my least favorite - could cull out?), Quatuor Mosaiques (about 10 discs, Op. 20 and later), Quatuor Festetics (16 discs, nearly complete), and the ongoing London Haydn Quartet - was not planning to even collect the latter, but the reviews, label, and 'new' recordings 'sucked me in' after a first listen. Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 19, 2017, 03:55:39 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on August 18, 2017, 10:26:32 AM
Hi Karl - well, like Papa's Symphonies, can a 'true' lover of Haydn just live w/ one set of the String Quartets? :o ;D

I do take your point, dear fellow :) And the Quatuor Mosaïques compendium is a treasure in my music library.

The Mosaïques are actually my second substantial-but-well-short-of-complete quartet acquisition: early on (well, early on in my own "Papa" obsession) I picked up the Amadeus Quartet box (late enough that this was a reissue, early enough that there was still a brick-&-mortar shop on Washington Street in Boston), which runs just a bit "sweeter" than the HIP contingent, but still to my ears musical and satisfying. They were my introduction to the Opp. 51, 54, 55, 64, 71 & 74 (whew!)

Quote from: North Star on August 18, 2017, 10:08:54 AM
I can confirm that The London Haydn Quartet's recordings of the Opp. 50, 54 & 55 quartets are excellent. 8)

I suffer no doubt on that head, Karlo! I do have the London Quartet in the Opp. 9 & 17, and enjoy them entirely. When their set is done (Godspeed), I should not be surprised if I act then.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 19, 2017, 06:27:47 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on August 18, 2017, 10:26:32 AM
For myself, I have the Buchberger Quartet Brilliant box (probably my least favorite - could cull out?)

A (short, or, short-ish) while ago, I bought the mp3 download of the Buchbergers playing the Op.50. Agreed that they are my least favorite . . . and I have not felt that I needed more of their set.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2017, 10:35:59 AM

I was interested yesterday to see some people choosing the Trumpet Concerto among their favorite Haydn works. Not only is it also one of mine, but I was right at the end of writing some history about it. Come have a look, there is more there than first meets the ear.

Seriously, did you just play the 11th harmonic overtone?? (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2017/08/1796-the-music-part-1-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 19, 2017, 11:00:30 AM

Very nice! (Will expand on that anon.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2017, 11:14:36 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 19, 2017, 11:00:30 AM
Very nice! (Will expand on that anon.)

Thanks, Karl. And for your expansion, too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 19, 2017, 11:39:41 AM

Probably I've already mentioned that the Trumpet Concerto was my first Haydn experience, as we played a band transcription when I was in high school. The soloist, Steve Falker, was in the class one year ahead of mine, and was then (certainly — possibly is still, if we could put the question to the test) the best trumpet-player I knew/have known. (Our band director, the late Ray Heller, was a trumpeter himself, and had been an army bandsman.) So the combination of playing with a wonderfully superior musician, and the exquisite music, made an indelible impression. Which is why (as I posted above) I must recuse myself from any pretense of impartiality about the piece.

The additional holistic angle is, a week-ish ago I wrote to Steve to tell him about a piece I am presently working on, a jazzy adaptation of the JS Bach Wachet auf! Chorale Prelude for brass quintet, and he wrote back that he does play in a quintet which will be glad to read it, and likely perform it.

So, all the good feelings in the orbit of this famous Concerto, you see.

Related to your own note in your blog post, at that tender age, I didn't know from Theory (no really good reason why it had dropped out of the high school curriculum at that day), and it was just the poetry and the ebullience of the music that seeped right into me. And if (as consensus considers) the delay between composition and first performance was a result of Weidinger needing to tame the beast in order to serve the piece, there is no doubt that the superb beauties of the piece were a motivation to see to the taming; and it seems ot have cemented rather than tried the friendship between the trumpeter and the composer.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2017, 12:16:28 PM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 19, 2017, 11:39:41 AM
Probably I've already mentioned that the Trumpet Concerto was my first Haydn experience, as we played a band transcription when I was in high school. The soloist, Steve Falker, was in the class one year ahead of mine, and was then (certainly — possibly is still, if we could put the question to the test) the best trumpet-player I knew/have known. (Our band director, the late Ray Heller, was a trumpeter himself, and had been an army bandsman.) So the combination of playing with a wonderfully superior musician, and the exquisite music, made an indelible impression. Which is why (as I posted above) I must recuse myself from any pretense of impartiality about the piece.

The additional holistic angle is, a week-ish ago I wrote to Steve to tell him about a piece I am presently working on, a jazzy adaptation of the JS Bach Wachet auf! Chorale Prelude for brass quintet, and he wrote back that he does play in a quintet which will be glad to read it, and likely perform it.

So, all the good feelings in the orbit of this famous Concerto, you see.

Related to your own note in your blog post, at that tender age, I didn't know from Theory (no really good reason why it had dropped out of the high school curriculum at that day), and it was just the poetry and the ebullience of the music that seeped right into me. And if (as consensus considers) the delay between composition and first performance was a result of Weidinger needing to tame the beast in order to serve the piece, there is no doubt that the superb beauties of the piece were a motivation to see to the taming; and it seems to have cemented rather than tried the friendship between the trumpeter and the composer.

Poetry and ebullience, for sure. Back in my pre-Classic days I was a jazz listener with a side of Classics, which was what led me to give Marsalis' version a try. While I don't listen to that disk much today (frightfully damned inauthentic ::) ) at the time it was revelatory, and one of the things which drove me back to Classical at the advanced age of 40, after a 25 year hiatus. Glad I did that now. Actually, I have been delaying in writing that essay because, as with certain other famous works, I felt overwhelmed to tackle it. I can imagine how a trumpeter must feel, I'm just a writer! :o

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 20, 2017, 09:57:54 AM

Haydn's Trumpet Concerto on a modern instrument - suggested recordings? Cross-posting again - just left the response below to a post by Sarge - as stated, my only 'modern' recording of this work is w/ Marsalis from years ago - comments and favorites, please - thanks. Dave :)

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 20, 2017, 05:43:22 AM
Haydn Trumpet Concerto played by Tine Thing Helseth and the Norwegian Chamber Orchestra

Quote(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/feb2015/tinethinghelsethhaydn.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91XM-C1cJHL._SL1411_.jpg) (http://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0000/998/MI0000998993.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Hi Sarge - I have just one CD of Haydn's Trumpet Concerto on a modern instrument; plus, the 2 recordings added above were a 'keyed trumpet' is used - my only modern trumpet recording is w/ Marsalis, bought years ago when released - must obtain another 'modern' version - hope that some recommendations are made; of course, an important consideration is what the 'other' works are on the discs under consideration. Thanks all for any comments - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 20, 2017, 10:30:20 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on August 20, 2017, 09:57:54 AM
Haydn's Trumpet Concerto on a modern instrument - suggested recordings? Cross-posting again - just left the response below to a post by Sarge - as stated, my only 'modern' recording of this work is w/ Marsalis from years ago - comments and favorites, please - thanks. Dave :)

Hi Sarge - I have just one CD of Haydn's Trumpet Concerto on a modern instrument; plus, the 2 recordings added above were a 'keyed trumpet' is used - my only modern trumpet recording is w/ Marsalis, bought years ago when released - must obtain another 'modern' version - hope that some recommendations are made; of course, an important consideration is what the 'other' works are on the discs under consideration. Thanks all for any comments - Dave :)

I don't have the Helseth, but I watched it a couple of times on Youtube and found it very enjoyable. Same with Alison Balsam. If I was compelled to have a modern instrument recording in addition to the Marsalis I have had for years, either of those would be very acceptable. Of the four which I pictured in my essay, I do like the Steele-Perkins with King's Consort the best, although I enjoy the true effort that they all have invested in playing such a difficult instrument. Immer on the Hogwood disk is especially hardworking. He pulls it off, but you can hear him working for it. As it should be. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on August 20, 2017, 10:35:56 AM

Reinhold Friedrich did one recording on an historical instrument (with Haselböck) and another one on a modern one (with Marriner, coupled with Hummel, M. Haydn and L. Mozart). I bought the latter several years ago believing it was the former. So I had to get both...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 20, 2017, 11:36:24 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on August 20, 2017, 10:35:56 AM
Reinhold Friedrich did one recording on an historical instrument (with Haselböck) and another one on a modern one (with Marriner, coupled with Hummel, M. Haydn and L. Mozart). I bought the latter several years ago believing it was the former. So I had to get both...

How was it? Haselböck has one of my favorite bands. I like everything I have heard so far by them, including my 3 Haydn symphony disks. :)

I read somewhere that Friedrich was also the very first person to ever play Brandenburg #2 on an actual natural trumpet with no vent holes or any 'cheats'. That's pretty damned impressive.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 20, 2017, 02:41:56 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 20, 2017, 10:30:20 AM
I don't have the Helseth, but I watched it a couple of times on Youtube and found it very enjoyable. Same with Alison Balsam. If I was compelled to have a modern instrument recording in addition to the Marsalis I have had for years, either of those would be very acceptable. Of the four which I pictured in my essay, I do like the Steele-Perkins with King's Consort the best, although I enjoy the true effort that they all have invested in playing such a difficult instrument. Immer on the Hogwood disk is especially hardworking. He pulls it off, but you can hear him working for it. As it should be. If it was easy, everyone would be doing it. :)

Quote from: Jo498 on August 20, 2017, 10:35:56 AM
Reinhold Friedrich did one recording on an historical instrument (with Haselböck) and another one on a modern one (with Marriner, coupled with Hummel, M. Haydn and L. Mozart). I bought the latter several years ago believing it was the former. So I had to get both...

Hi Guys - thanks for the comments; I own the 'keyed trumpet' CDs added to Sarge's post above, and just re-listened to the Reinhold Friedrich performance on the instrument - have always enjoyed (the attachment includes a less flattering opinion of the disc for those interested); plan to check Spotify to see which of the 'modern trumpet' recordings may be available for a listen? Also found the Telarc CD shown below on Amazon, apparently a Grammy winner from a while ago (review also in the attachment). Dave :)
.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51EmkD2nC4L.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 02, 2017, 01:16:45 PM

To judge by the number of views this series of posts gets, I would say they are perhaps the mainstay of my blog! Well, the 1790's presented their own challenge in compiling a list for, but I've done the first half, conveniently demarcated by the time in London. Hope you find it helpful. Once it has done duty as a post, I shall move it to its own page, like the other references are.

Now that's a lot of music! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2017/09/haydns-music-of-1791-95.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 07, 2017, 09:53:43 AM

Well, cross-posting again (below just left in the listening thread) - apropos to my previous post here, I decided to purchase the trumpet concerto CD on Telarc w/ Rolf Smedvig - the recording was nominated for a 1990 Grammy, but did not win. In the running were the two ladies (recommended on follow-up posts to my request for suggestions) - for a 'new' disc, the Telarc CD was my least expensive option - about to listen to my two 'keyed trumpet' versions, which I'll probably prefer? Dave :)

QuoteTrumpet Concertos w/ Rolf Smedvig on a modern instrument - mainly purchased to add another 'modern instrument' performance of the Haydn Concerto (only other one in my collection is w/ Marsalis from the '80s) - great Telarc sound from 1989; unfortunately, Smedvig died suddenly a few years ago at the age of 62 years (cardiac event); my other considerations were the two lady trumpeters below in the middle - both receiving great reviews, BUT Smedvig was the 'cheapest' available from 'across the pond.'

Now, I also own two versions of the concerto on a 'keyed trumpet' (added at the bottom), which are coming up next for a listen. Dave :)

P.S. Rolf Smedvig is a founding member of the Empire Brass (CD below in my collection).

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51EmkD2nC4L.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51NTjS1WeCL.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51nxB7%2B8EdL.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71a6v4udPkL._SL1200_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71VcvFwk7wL._SL1426_.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91XM-C1cJHL._SL1411_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51oSSxL62tL.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 07, 2017, 11:17:35 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on September 07, 2017, 09:53:43 AM
Well, cross-posting again (below just left in the listening thread) - apropos to my previous post here, I decided to purchase the trumpet concerto CD on Telarc w/ Rolf Smedvig - the recording was nominated for a 1990 Grammy, but did not win. In the running were the two ladies (recommended on follow-up posts to my request for suggestions) - for a 'new' disc, the Telarc CD was my least expensive option - about to listen to my two 'keyed trumpet' versions, which I'll probably prefer? Dave :)

Well, they are all good, no doubt of that. Of those, I think Bennett, then Helseth (for one of each). I like Pinnock's backup a lot, they do a good job helping Bennett through the tough spots. :) Balsom is a hell of a trumpeter though, I have to say that in fairness. Not sure if you 'previewed' any of these on Youtube first, but I would. There just might be something that appeals or repels you that someone else isn't likely to tell you about. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on September 07, 2017, 11:31:58 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on September 07, 2017, 11:17:35 AM
Well, they are all good, no doubt of that. Of those, I think Bennett, then Helseth (for one of each). I like Pinnock's backup a lot, they do a good job helping Bennett through the tough spots. :) Balsom is a hell of a trumpeter though, I have to say that in fairness. Not sure if you 'previewed' any of these on Youtube first, but I would. There just might be something that appeals or repels you that someone else isn't likely to tell you about. :-\

Hi Gurn - thanks for your comments; Smedvig is quite satisfactory in these trumpet works (have not compared him w/ Marsalis but maybe later) - I just finished my two 'keyed trumpet' discs and must say that I enjoy Reinhold Friedrich the most, so probably no need for me to add yet another (and 5th) version of this concerto to my collection; BUT, I'll take a look on Spotify to see if the two gals are available - I can stream from the Spotify app on my iPad to some BT speakers w/ decent sound. Dave :)

ADDENDUM: Well, I did listen to Helseth on Spotify - impressed, and as good if not better than Smedvig, but a $24 Amazon USA purchase ($9 for MP3); also, re-listened to Marsalis and enjoyed as much as back in the 1980s when bought - Balsom was available on Spotify too, and impressive - NOW, I've to re-listen to my recent 'male' purchase - women can blow those horns quite well - :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 10, 2017, 05:58:19 PM

No new essays for a while, life has been happening. However, I finally did get wound up and took a look at the last 4 Keyboard Trios, some of my very favorite of Haydn's chamber music. I learned some things, hope you do too. :)

Not too many amateurs playing THESE! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2017/10/1796-the-music-part-2-.html)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on October 10, 2017, 11:05:39 PM

As usual, a great, deeply informative and illuminating essay. Thank you.

And believe it or not, the very first time I heard the Allegretto of Hob XV:28 my reaction was: boy, this is as eerie as a Bartok night music. To be 150 years ahead of his time, not bad at all for a composer who hoped to be remembered for at most 40 years after his death. 8)

EDIT: ...and who would probably not make it into a GMG Top 10 Greatest / Favorite Piano Trios Poll. ;D ;D ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 11, 2017, 04:23:08 AM

Quote from: Florestan on October 10, 2017, 11:05:39 PM
As usual, a great, deeply informative and illuminating essay. Thank you.

And believe it or not, the very first time I heard the Allegretto of Hob XV:28 my reaction was: boy, this is as eerie as a Bartok night music. To be 150 years ahead of his time, not bad at all for a composer who hoped to be remembered for at most 40 years after his death. 8)

EDIT: ...and who would probably not make it into a GMG Top 10 Greatest / Favorite Piano Trios Poll. ;D ;D ;D

Thanks! And I sure agree with that. I have to say it felt to me like Beethoven's 'Ghost Trio' in many ways. Whenever I hear something very unusual like that, I always try and put myself in the place of the first players and audiences (as they might have been) and imagine how they reacted, having no points or reference to things which happened later, like we have. It must have really made an impression. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 12, 2017, 01:25:23 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 11, 2017, 04:23:08 AM
Thanks! And I sure agree with that. I have to say it felt to me like Beethoven's 'Ghost Trio' in many ways. Whenever I hear something very unusual like that, I always try and put myself in the place of the first players and audiences (as they might have been) and imagine how they reacted, having no points or reference to things which happened later, like we have. It must have really made an impression. :)

8)

It always makes me think of baroque pieces like, I dunno, the slow movements from the Bach trio sonatas or indeed air on a G string.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2017, 04:26:42 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on October 12, 2017, 01:25:23 AM
It always makes me think of baroque pieces like, I dunno, the slow movements from the Bach trio sonatas or indeed air on a G string.

Or even some of the Phantasticus pieces from the early 17th century. And if, indeed, Haydn consciously or unconsciously took those as a model, one wonders where in hell he heard it. Because they certainly weren't playing that sort of music during his lifetime! I would love to be able to trace the genesis of some things like this. (I'm a history guy, after all). :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 12, 2017, 07:25:59 AM

I think someone compared that allegretto to a baroque ostinato piece. I doubt that Haydn knew 17th century Stylus Phantasticus but he probably knew a little 18th century Bach, Fux, Handel etc. (Recall the fugues in the op.20 quartets or the canons in some symphonies (menuet in 44, andante in 70.) And he had also enough creativity to come up with such a strange piece on his own ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2017, 10:28:41 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on October 12, 2017, 07:25:59 AM
I think someone compared that allegretto to a baroque ostinato piece. I doubt that Haydn knew 17th century Stylus Phantasticus but he probably knew a little 18th century Bach, Fux, Handel etc. (Recall the fugues in the op.20 quartets or the canons in some symphonies (menuet in 44, andante in 70.) And he had also enough creativity to come up with such a strange piece on his own ;)

He probably knew Fux better than anyone but Fux, since his own copy of 'Gradus ad Parnassum' was fully annotated (much in Latin) and corrected in his hand. It is probably quite likely that he came up with the eeriness ex nihilo, since there don't appear to be current models, nor that he had access to any ancient ones. It is an interesting effect though. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 12, 2017, 11:55:42 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2017, 10:28:41 AM
He probably knew Fux better than anyone but Fux, since his own copy of 'Gradus ad Parnassum' was fully annotated (much in Latin) and corrected in his hand. It is probably quite likely that he came up with the eeriness ex nihilo, since there don't appear to be current models, nor that he had access to any ancient ones. It is an interesting effect though. :)

8)

What might he have found in the musical archives at Morzin and Esterhaza?

And although he would have not yet received any formal training he may gave heard music by eg Biber or Schmelzer during his St. Stephen's days.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on October 12, 2017, 11:57:52 AM

OT
I must admit I got sidetracked a bit before that last post, in checking out St Stephen's, by the Hapsburg tradition of being buried in three different churches.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on October 15, 2017, 06:56:45 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 10, 2017, 05:58:19 PM
No new essays for a while, life has been happening. However, I finally did get wound up and took a look at the last 4 Keyboard Trios, some of my very favorite of Haydn's chamber music. I learned some things, hope you do too. :)

Not too many amateurs playing THESE! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2017/10/1796-the-music-part-2-.html)

I enjoyed reading this installment and learned from it too. Best of all, it led me to think about the transition in Haydn's output after London. I wondered if Haydn had decided to turn away from symphonies at the time he left London. If so, how did using trios and quartets to work our new ideas related to the larger works he now had in mind?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 15, 2017, 07:13:02 PM

Quote from: Old Listener on October 15, 2017, 06:56:45 PM
I enjoyed reading this installment and learned from it too. Best of all, it led me to think about the transition in Haydn's output after London. I wondered if Haydn had decided to turn away from symphonies at the time he left London. If so, how did using trios and quartets to work our new ideas related to the larger works he now had in mind?

That's a good question. The bigger picture is that instead of symphonies he was doing masses. There is a prevailing belief among musicologists that he was not only using larger orchestras than the norm, but also constructing the masses along all the major structural lines as the late symphonies used. I'm not sure I'm 100% on board with this, but there are those (Robbins Landon was one) who were simply unable to accept that Haydn quit writing symphonies, therefore his masses were just choral symphonies.

The workshop ideas, I have to say, are less concrete, and I think it's because we are looking back, knowing what the end has in store. But Haydn didn't know when the end would come, and his brain never stopped generating musical ideas. There will be a point later where he tells someone that (it's quite sad) he gets new ideas all the time but simply doesn't have the strength or the concentration to write them down any more. But the rhythmic and harmonic ideas of the 1780's were used in bigger works in the 1790's, and I can only speculate that the ideas of the mid-later 1790's would have been used in the 1800's if he had been able to write beyond 1802. Still, many later composers benefited from his thoughts, either directly or through their perpetuation by Beethoven, Schubert and others.

At least, that's what I believe. If anyone has written on it I haven't seen it yet.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on October 17, 2017, 09:30:39 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 12, 2017, 04:26:42 AM
Or even some of the Phantasticus pieces from the early 17th century. And if, indeed, Haydn consciously or unconsciously took those as a model, one wonders where in hell he heard it. Because they certainly weren't playing that sort of music during his lifetime! I would love to be able to trace the genesis of some things like this. (I'm a history guy, after all). :)

8)

Now, I know Bach was considered deathly dull in Haydn's day, but someone must have remembered and played his music, or how would they have known to revive it. Particularly the works which were formally published must have been in circulation among learned connoisseurs and composers. The thing that movement from Hob XV 28 brings to mind is the prelude in b-minor from Bach's WTC Book I.

In any case, I listened to the piece and the middle movement was indeed striking. But if I dare raise the M-word on this thread, for comparison I pulled up Mozart's Piano Trio K548. What a dramatic contrast to the style of Haydn. I remember at first I did not appreciate these trios by Mozart at all, but later I realized that I could understand almost any piece of Mozart with Piano as a sort of Opera without words.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2017, 04:28:10 AM

Quote from: Scarpia on October 17, 2017, 09:30:39 PM
Now, I know Bach was considered deathly dull in Haydn's day, but someone must have remembered and played his music, or how would they have known to revive it. Particularly the works which were formally published must have been in circulation among learned connoisseurs and composers. The thing that movement from Hob XV 28 brings to mind is the prelude in b-minor from Bach's WTC Book I.

In any case, I listened to the piece and the middle movement was indeed striking. But if I dare raise the M-word on this thread, for comparison I pulled up Mozart's Piano Trio K548. What a dramatic contrast to the style of Haydn. I remember at first I did not appreciate these trios by Mozart at all, but later I realized that I could understand almost any piece of Mozart with Piano as a sort of Opera without words.

No worries there, mate: just like Haydn did, we love Mozart too. :)

Generally, Old Bach's music was NOT generally known, but the WTC is an exception, it was used as etudes, which, I think, is what it was written as. So you may well be right, I'll have to have a listen when I get home.

I know you're right about Haydn v Mozart. They are an entirely different style. Not one better than the other, so much as one of them the best in a style which became the popular and prevalent style, while the other was king in a style all his own. Maybe that's why they were BFF's, they were never in competition with each other. Haydn shamelessly promoted Mozart's music from when they first met until Haydn died. And vice-versa, I might add. FWIW, I do, and have always, greatly enjoy Mozart's keyboard trios. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on October 18, 2017, 08:08:42 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2017, 04:28:10 AM
No worries there, mate: just like Haydn did, we love Mozart too. :)

Generally, Old Bach's music was NOT generally known, but the WTC is an exception, it was used as etudes, which, I think, is what it was written as. So you may well be right, I'll have to have a listen when I get home.

I know you're right about Haydn v Mozart. They are an entirely different style. Not one better than the other, so much as one of them the best in a style which became the popular and prevalent style, while the other was king in a style all his own. Maybe that's why they were BFF's, they were never in competition with each other. Haydn shamelessly promoted Mozart's music from when they first met until Haydn died. And vice-versa, I might add. FWIW, I do, and have always, greatly enjoy Mozart's keyboard trios. :)

I'm not entirely sure which is which, Haydn and Mozart, respectively?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kyjo on October 18, 2017, 08:26:21 AM

Over the summer, I heard a vibrant performance of Haydn's Quartet op. 76/1 (in G major) by the up-and-coming Jasper Quartet (a fantastic group) and was struck by what a remarkable work it is. From the catchy first movement through the deeply felt second and hilariously unpredictable third to the vigorous, minor-key finale, it's a work that constantly surprised and delighted me. Another one of Haydn's quartets that really struck me is his op. 20/2 (in C major), with its noble opening cello solo, melancholy slow movement, wistful minuet, and masterly fugal finale. I also love the Lark Quartet despite having played it too many times. What are everyone's favorite Haydn quartets?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 18, 2017, 08:50:32 AM

Quote from: kyjo on October 18, 2017, 08:26:21 AM
Over the summer, I heard a vibrant performance of Haydn's Quartet op. 76/1 (in G major) by the up-and-coming Jasper Quartet (a fantastic group) and was struck by what a remarkable work it is. From the catchy first movement through the deeply felt second and hilariously unpredictable third to the vigorous, minor-key finale, it's a work that constantly surprised and delighted me. Another one of Haydn's quartets that really struck me is his op. 20/2 (in C major), with its noble opening cello solo, melancholy slow movement, wistful minuet, and masterly fugal finale. I also love the Lark Quartet despite having played it too many times. What are everyone's favorite Haydn quartets?

I'm still absorbing them, so my favorite is apt to be, the quartet I just listened to 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on October 18, 2017, 08:56:06 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 18, 2017, 08:50:32 AM
Quote from: kyjo on October 18, 2017, 08:26:21 AM
Over the summer, I heard a vibrant performance of Haydn's Quartet op. 76/1 (in G major) by the up-and-coming Jasper Quartet (a fantastic group) and was struck by what a remarkable work it is. From the catchy first movement through the deeply felt second and hilariously unpredictable third to the vigorous, minor-key finale, it's a work that constantly surprised and delighted me. Another one of Haydn's quartets that really struck me is his op. 20/2 (in C major), with its noble opening cello solo, melancholy slow movement, wistful minuet, and masterly fugal finale. I also love the Lark Quartet despite having played it too many times. What are everyone's favorite Haydn quartets?
I'm still absorbing them, so my favorite is apt to be, the quartet I just listened to 8)

Ditto.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on October 18, 2017, 09:02:05 AM

Quote from: kyjo on October 18, 2017, 08:26:21 AMWhat are everyone's favorite Haydn quartets?

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 18, 2017, 08:50:32 AM
I'm still absorbing them, so my favorite is apt to be, the quartet I just listened to 8)

That's the Haydn dilemma for me. There is so much of it relative to my rate of uptake, I will always be "still absorbing" them.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 18, 2017, 09:09:34 AM

Quote from: Scarpia on October 18, 2017, 09:02:05 AM
That's the Haydn dilemma for me. There is so much of it relative to my rate of uptake, I will always be "still absorbing" them.

I've made my peace with that, and am content to enjoy the ~~ride~~ listening 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on October 18, 2017, 09:28:15 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 18, 2017, 09:09:34 AM
I've made my peace with that, and am content to enjoy the ~~ride~~ listening 8)

Generally yes, but I feel a lack of something. If you mention Mozart symphony no X, where X is greater than or equal to 29 I will have a distinct opinion on it. Same for Mozart string quartet Y, with Y greater than or equal to 14, or Piano Concerto Z, with Z greater or equal to 14.

If you ask me about a Haydn symphony and it's not Le Poule or the one I listened to last night you'll get a blank stare.

Gurn, quick, what do you think of Haydn Symphony No 37. No cheating! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on October 18, 2017, 09:46:03 AM

And again, no news on The Hobbit?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 18, 2017, 10:51:53 AM

Quote from: kyjo on October 18, 2017, 08:26:21 AM
Over the summer, I heard a vibrant performance of Haydn's Quartet op. 76/1 (in G major) by the up-and-coming Jasper Quartet (a fantastic group) and was struck by what a remarkable work it is. From the catchy first movement through the deeply felt second and hilariously unpredictable third to the vigorous, minor-key finale, it's a work that constantly surprised and delighted me. Another one of Haydn's quartets that really struck me is his op. 20/2 (in C major), with its noble opening cello solo, melancholy slow movement, wistful minuet, and masterly fugal finale. I also love the Lark Quartet despite having played it too many times. What are everyone's favorite Haydn quartets?

I share your enthusiasm about op.76/1 and op.20/2. I remember when I heard the latter first in concert I almost fell from my chair when the second movement began because even after the beautiful first movement I had not expected a comparably "early" piece (this is nonsense, Haydn was around 40 and had already written about a dozen divertimenti and another dozen of quartets but I was not really aware of such details back then) to be such a mature masterpiece. It is a great piece but I am probably even more fond of #4 with the great slow variations movement and the "hungarian" finale. The op. 20 sixpack is a stunning achievement.

I am not all that fond of the "Lark" anymore. I understand why it is so popular but I prefer from op.64 #2,#3 and #6.

Overall there are too many great ones to name favorites. Even the early divertimenti are enjoyable and have some very good (among other more routine or very slight "divertimento" pieces), e.g. the beautiful "echo" slow movement from op.1/3.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2017, 12:50:19 PM

Quote from: Scarpia on October 18, 2017, 08:08:42 AM
I'm not entirely sure which is which, Haydn and Mozart, respectively?

That would be my opinion. Half the musical world was copying Haydn for most of his working life. Very few were copying Mozart, at least, not during his lifetime.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2017, 12:54:52 PM

Quote from: kyjo on October 18, 2017, 08:26:21 AM
Over the summer, I heard a vibrant performance of Haydn's Quartet op. 76/1 (in G major) by the up-and-coming Jasper Quartet (a fantastic group) and was struck by what a remarkable work it is. From the catchy first movement through the deeply felt second and hilariously unpredictable third to the vigorous, minor-key finale, it's a work that constantly surprised and delighted me. Another one of Haydn's quartets that really struck me is his op. 20/2 (in C major), with its noble opening cello solo, melancholy slow movement, wistful minuet, and masterly fugal finale. I also love the Lark Quartet despite having played it too many times. What are everyone's favorite Haydn quartets?

Boy, you picked some good ones! Op 76 1 & 2 are certainly in my top 5. Opus 50 #1 is too, and Opus 74 #3 and Op 77 #2. I hate to dwell too much on the late ones because plenty of early ones are first rate too, like Op 9 #4 (d minor) and a big handful in Op 17, 20 & 33. So....

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 18, 2017, 08:50:32 AM
I'm still absorbing them, so my favorite is apt to be, the quartet I just listened to 8)

I might end up chickening out like Karl... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2017, 12:59:33 PM

Quote from: Scarpia on October 18, 2017, 09:28:15 AM

Gurn, quick, what do you think of Haydn Symphony No 37. No cheating! :)

That's one in C major and it starts out really fast for a symphony. I like it, IIRC, it was the first "Viennese Festive C Major" style symphony that Haydn wrote for the Prince. He had a particular way with that genre, like with #48 Maria Theresia for example. Several fine works in the "30's', like Hornsignal, #34 and #39. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on October 18, 2017, 01:09:57 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2017, 12:59:33 PM
That's one in C major and it starts out really fast for a symphony. I like it, IIRC, it was the first "Viennese Festive C Major" style symphony that Haydn wrote for the Prince. He had a particular way with that genre, like with #48 Maria Theresia for example. Several fine works in the "30's', like Hornsignal, #34 and #39. :)

8)

Well done! Now I'm suitably ashamed. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on October 18, 2017, 01:43:28 PM

I'm weirdly proud of myself for having known that "no.37" is actually a pretty early symphony. That was as far as I got, though.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on October 18, 2017, 01:53:20 PM

Quite so, I looked it up in the Gurn Haydn Symphony Concordance and apparently it is Haydn's second effort in the genre. :o

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: amw on October 18, 2017, 02:50:36 PM

Quote from: kyjo on October 18, 2017, 08:26:21 AMWhat are everyone's favorite Haydn quartets?

Op. 76 no. 5 (D major)
Op. 50 no. 4 (f# minor)
Op. 33 no. 1 (b minor)
Op. 20 no. 2 (C major)
Op. 50 no. 6 (D major)
Op. 33 no. 2 (Eb major)
Op. 20 no. 5 (f minor)
Op. 33 no. 3 (C major)
Op. 64 no. 6 (Eb major)
Op. 76 no. 2 (d minor)
Op. 50 no. 3 (Eb major)

in the order I thought of them anyway.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: BasilValentine on October 18, 2017, 03:09:45 PM

Quote from: Scarpia on October 18, 2017, 09:28:15 AM
Generally yes, but I feel a lack of something. If you mention Mozart symphony no X, where X is greater than or equal to 29 I will have a distinct opinion on it. Same for Mozart string quartet Y, with Y greater than or equal to 14, or Piano Concerto Z, with Z greater or equal to 14.

If you ask me about a Haydn symphony and it's not Le Poule or the one I listened to last night you'll get a blank stare.

Gurn, quick, what do you think of Haydn Symphony No 37. No cheating! :)

Listen to Symphonies 44-47 and you will get a definite, indelible impression. This run of four symphonies is my favorite in the Haydn cycle. Each one is thoroughly original and there are striking, experimental surprises throughout. A palindromic minuet, a sonata form movement starting in major and ending in minor, an early experiment in cyclic structure, one of the most intense climactic finales before Beethoven (44), whole movements with canonic writing, and other wonders.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 18, 2017, 03:26:08 PM

Quote from: kyjo on October 18, 2017, 08:26:21 AM
Over the summer, I heard a vibrant performance of Haydn's Quartet op. 76/1 (in G major) by the up-and-coming Jasper Quartet (a fantastic group) and was struck by what a remarkable work it is. From the catchy first movement through the deeply felt second and hilariously unpredictable third to the vigorous, minor-key finale, it's a work that constantly surprised and delighted me. Another one of Haydn's quartets that really struck me is his op. 20/2 (in C major), with its noble opening cello solo, melancholy slow movement, wistful minuet, and masterly fugal finale. I also love the Lark Quartet despite having played it too many times. What are everyone's favorite Haydn quartets?

Some favorites with favorite performances:

op.9/4 D minor - London Haydn String Quartet
op.20/2 C major - Quatuor Mosaiques
op.20/4 D major - Auryn Quartet
op.20/5 F minor - Auryn Quartet
op.33/1 B minor - Apponyi Quartett
op.33/2 E flat "Joke"- Apponyi Quartett
op:33/3 C major "Bird" - Apponyi Quartett
op.50/4 F sharp minor - Tokyo Quartet
op.54/1 G major - Amadeus Quartet
op.64/3 B flat major - Quatuor Mosaiques
op.74/3 G minor "Rider" - Schuppanzigh Quartett
op.76/2 D minor "Fifths" - Jerusalem Quartet
op.76/3 C major "Kaiser" - Amadeus Quartet
op.77/1 G major - Jerusalem Quartet and Kodaly Quartet

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2017, 03:56:50 PM

Quote from: Scarpia on October 18, 2017, 01:09:57 PM
Well done! Now I'm suitably ashamed. :)

In truth, I listened to it last weekend. I have been going through my early essays looking to spruce them up a bit and listening to the music as I work. C major symphonies are always special if a Viennese wrote them. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on October 18, 2017, 03:58:13 PM

I must say I envy the listening time some here have available, making it possible to cultivate so many well defined favorites among Haydn's large body of work. I seriously doubt I will manage to listen to the pieces cited even once, let alone have the opportunity to form any preference for one or another. :(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on October 18, 2017, 04:01:58 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2017, 03:56:50 PM
In truth, I listened to it last weekend. I have been going through my early essays looking to spruce them up a bit and listening to the music as I work. C major symphonies are always special if a Viennese wrote them. :)

8)

Not a Russian, French, Hollywood Transplant. I'm Partial to Stravinsky's Symphony in C. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2017, 04:03:22 PM

Quote from: BasilValentine on October 18, 2017, 03:09:45 PM
Listen to Symphonies 44-47 and you will get a definite, indelible impression. This run of four symphonies is my favorite in the Haydn cycle. Each one is thoroughly original and there are striking, experimental surprises throughout. A palindromic minuet, a sonata form movement starting in major and ending in minor, an early experiment in cyclic structure, one of the most intense climactic finales before Beethoven (44), whole movements with canonic writing, and other wonders.

Can't argue with that, they were an early peak in his symphony output, although 44 was written 2 years earlier than the other 3. Immediately preceding 45-47 (1772) was #42 in D, which is one of my personal favorites too. Haydn had a self-administered "complete course in composition" from ca. 1768-72, where he took a full course in music and composition theory. The immediate results were the Opp 9, 17 & 20 quartets and the very best of the dramatic period symphonies. Quite a self-imposition for his 40th birthday! :o

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2017, 04:04:16 PM

Quote from: Scarpia on October 18, 2017, 04:01:58 PM
Not a Russian, French, Hollywood Transplant. I'm Partial to Stravinsky's Symphony in C. :)

I can get behind that. ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2017, 04:07:52 PM

Boy, you guys sure picked some nice lists! A solid reason why choosing among these works is so difficult. I can go to any list and say "yup, that's it". :-\ :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 18, 2017, 04:27:25 PM

Quote from: Scarpia on October 18, 2017, 03:58:13 PM
I must say I envy the listening time some here have available

Retirement has its perks 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: amw on October 18, 2017, 04:28:28 PM

Quote from: Scarpia on October 18, 2017, 03:58:13 PM
I must say I envy the listening time some here have available, making it possible to cultivate so many well defined favorites among Haydn's large body of work. I seriously doubt I will manage to listen to the pieces cited even once, let alone have the opportunity to form any preference for one or another. :(

Honestly with my list it's more that all of those have a distinct profile in my mind (and in many cases I can hum the main themes) whereas a lot of the others simply haven't gotten that far. The quality of Haydn's quartets is so consistently high that I don't think there's anything qualitatively separating that top 10 or whatever from the rest apart from, e.g. the particular love I have for the slow movement of 76/5 or the fugue of 50/4 or the slow movement of 33/2 etc.

Alongside set works in music theory classes at uni, I got to know the Haydn quartets from Rosen's The Classical Style, which could be useful reading material for fixing some of the quartets in memory, although he gives short shrift to Op. 20.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 18, 2017, 04:33:42 PM

Quote from: Scarpia on October 18, 2017, 09:46:03 AM
And again, no news on The Hobbit?

The Heidelberger Sinfoniker website says Fey has not yet recovered. The 2017/18 season concerts are being conducted by others.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on October 18, 2017, 08:34:39 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 18, 2017, 04:33:42 PM
The Heidelberger Sinfoniker website says Fey has not yet recovered. The 2017/18 season concerts are being conducted by others.

Sarge

What a sad loss of a brilliant talent.

I found the web site and even your use of the term "yet" seems an unjustified optimism.

QuoteLeider ist immer noch nicht abzusehen, ob Thomas Fey nach seinem Unfall - vor nun mehr einem Jahr - wieder auf die Bühne zurückkehren wird. Wir wünschen ihm auch an dieser Stelle viel Kraft auf seinem langen Weg der Genesung

QuoteUnfortunately, it is still not clear whether Thomas Fey will return to the stage after his accident - more than a year ago. We also wish him much strength on his long journey of recovery.

The English version via Google Translate.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 19, 2017, 12:48:29 AM

Quote from: amw on October 18, 2017, 04:28:28 PM
Honestly with my list it's more that all of those have a distinct profile in my mind (and in many cases I can hum the main themes) whereas a lot of the others simply haven't gotten that far. The quality of Haydn's quartets is so consistently high that I don't think there's anything qualitatively separating that top 10 or whatever from the rest apart from, e.g. the particular love I have for the slow movement of 76/5 or the fugue of 50/4 or the slow movement of 33/2 etc.

Alongside set works in music theory classes at uni, I got to know the Haydn quartets from Rosen's The Classical Style, which could be useful reading material for fixing some of the quartets in memory, although he gives short shrift to Op. 20.

And even shorter thrift to op.9 and 17 ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 19, 2017, 01:15:01 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2017, 03:56:50 PM
In truth, I listened to it last weekend. I have been going through my early essays looking to spruce them up a bit and listening to the music as I work. C major symphonies are always special if a Viennese wrote them. :)

8)

Still, you benefited from the regular regimen! And without violating the request, you were nevertheless equipped 0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2017, 04:27:26 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 19, 2017, 01:15:01 AM
Still, you benefited from the regular regimen! And without violating the request, you were nevertheless equipped 0:)

0:)

Yes, it's true. I wonder what other people use as a memory-triggering device. For me, it's the Key. Once I knew the key, the work came right back. Anyone have other ideas about that?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 19, 2017, 04:50:06 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2017, 04:27:26 AM
0:)

Yes, it's true. I wonder what other people use as a memory-triggering device. For me, it's the Key. Once I knew the key, the work came right back. Anyone have other ideas about that?

8)

I know you won't like to hear this but the nicknames really help me remember a particular work. Also, if the work is in a minor key, it tends to be more memorable.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 19, 2017, 04:58:17 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 19, 2017, 04:50:06 AM
I know you won't like to hear this but the nicknames really help me remember a particular work.

It is philosophically problematic; but there's no denying that they exist, partly because they are useful mnemonics.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2017, 06:01:12 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 19, 2017, 04:50:06 AM
I know you won't like to hear this but the nicknames really help me remember a particular work. Also, if the work is in a minor key, it tends to be more memorable.

Sarge

OK, I can accept that. But how would YOU then remember #37, for example? I remember writing about it and that it was a Viennese Festive C Major work, and I wrote a little bit about that tradition. Usually that is what happens with the symphonies. The string quartets, though, when amw was talking about her list and said "Op 33 #1 (b minor)", I knew just which one she was talking about, not because of Op 33 #1 but 'the one in b minor' is how I remembered it. Neither do I remember the one called The Joke, it's the one in Eb.

Anyway, my brain doesn't work to remember themes and such like I see a lot of people doing. But it is great at gathering all these trivial little facts that I don't even consciously remember until someone asks. Like "it's in b minor'... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 19, 2017, 07:00:26 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2017, 06:01:12 AM
OK, I can accept that. But how would YOU then remember #37, for example?

Other than listening to it repeatedly until the themes are ingrained? I don't know. Knowing it's in C major doesn't help since it's just one of 19 that Haydn composed in that key.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2017, 08:26:22 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 19, 2017, 07:00:26 AM
Other than listening to it repeatedly until the themes are ingrained? I don't know. Knowing it's in C major doesn't help since it's just one of 19 that Haydn composed in that key.

Sarge

Yes, it doesn't help a lot of people, but it helps me. That was what I found odd. It's even worse in D major. #42 was one of a great many in D, yet knowing it was in D helps me remember it. Hell, I can't explain it, but it is one of the few lasting memories I have about works is what key they were in. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 19, 2017, 08:39:51 AM

There are several groups or clusters. Some I do not remember at all, of others I have a fairly clear "sound picture" in my mind, i.e. I could often hum or whistle important themes or at least I would immediately or quickly recognize beginnings and other passages if they were played to me.
Of another group I have a far less clear, vague remembrance but will still recall certain features, like a melody or some special effect from a certain movement. E.g. I could not hum any theme from symphony #51 and I do not think I would recognize the beginning but I do know that it is the one with the crazy (very high and low pitch) horn solos, so this is an identifier.
Then one spins a web (with gaps, admittedly), #52 is the c minor, cannot hum, but will very probably recognize at least first and last movement, 50 is another in C major (I think with a flute solo in the slow movement, but I might be wrong, I write all this without looking up anything). 49 is "La passione", one I know fairly well (not so hummable, but I would recognize all movements), 48 is the "Maria Theresia", very famous and quite recognizable etc. 47 is the one with the "al rovescio" menuet, 46 is the only one in B major with the menuet returning in the finale, 45 is of course "Farewell" and so on. (Admittedly I picked a comparably well known bunch here, I could not do it with the 20s, there would be more gaps than pieces I remember features of.)

It can be easier with the string quartets because of their groupings into six, but it can also be harder because they have less obviously special features, like horn or flute solos etc.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 19, 2017, 08:42:06 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 19, 2017, 07:00:26 AM
Other than listening to it repeatedly until the themes are ingrained? I don't know. Knowing it's in C major doesn't help since it's just one of 19 that Haydn composed in that key.

Sarge
Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2017, 08:26:22 AM
Yes, it doesn't help a lot of people, but it helps me. That was what I found odd. It's even worse in D major. #42 was one of a great many in D, yet knowing it was in D helps me remember it. Hell, I can't explain it, but it is one of the few lasting memories I have about works is what key they were in. :-\

8)

It's more abstract as a mnemonic, but it is an alternate mnemonic.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on October 19, 2017, 11:43:09 AM

I used to remember pieces by association with the album cover. Now that they come in mega-boxes there is no hope. Not much use referring to "the one on disc 23." :(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: amw on October 19, 2017, 12:03:10 PM

Honestly even with very well known symphonies like the Londons I often forget which number is which or mix up the slow movements or sometimes an entire symphony is a blank spot..... and the same is true with some of the quartets, eg I know one of the Op. 33 set is in B-flat major but I don't remember anything about it, or my brain attaches the first movement of Op. 54 no. 2 to the finale of Op. 64 no. 1, or whatever. I guess it's just that the ones I do remember I remember... well??

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 19, 2017, 12:52:09 PM

op.33#4 is the one in B flat major, it is probably the least well known of the set. I don't remember anything particular about it either...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on October 19, 2017, 02:16:24 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 19, 2017, 07:00:26 AM
Other than listening to it repeatedly until the themes are ingrained? I don't know. Knowing it's in C major doesn't help since it's just one of 19 that Haydn composed in that key.

Sarge

19 symphonies is still a much smaller group to sort through than 106.

I dunno. I'm still working through my first ever listens to the first 77 so there's nothing firm in there. The only ones I have a really decent sense of are the London symphonies because I've owned them for years. With a hazier addition of nos. 82-92 because I've owned them for about 3 years. Key does help a bit, but then cross-checked with period or number. For instance I'm aware in my head of a C major London and an E flat major London that isn't the Drum Roll...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on October 19, 2017, 02:27:29 PM

The only Haydn Symphony I heard in concert was "The Flatulent." Which number is that, and Gurn, what key is it in?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 19, 2017, 02:41:55 PM

Quote from: Scarpia on October 19, 2017, 02:27:29 PM
The only Haydn Symphony I heard in concert was "The Flatulent." Which number is that, and Gurn, what key is it in?

93, D major ...see? nicknames are useful ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: amw on October 19, 2017, 02:56:35 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on October 19, 2017, 12:52:09 PM
op.33#4 is the one in B flat major, it is probably the least well known of the set. I don't remember anything particular about it either...

Listened to it: has an arresting opening on a third inversion dominant 7th chord, unlike any other Haydn quartet I've heard, so that may help to fix it in my memory. Very good quartet obviously, with a real sense of sounding revolutionary and like nothing that'd been done before (which is true of all the Op. 33s), but have to say the musical material is simply not as memorable to me as e.g. op. 33/3.

With Symphony No. 93 I mostly remember the finale, its butter-wouldn't-melt-in-mouth main theme, and its idiosyncratic excursion to D-flat major at one point with a solo cello, but I guess "The One That Goes Into D-flat Major At One Point" isn't a very good nickname

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on October 19, 2017, 03:00:17 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 19, 2017, 02:41:55 PM
93, D major ...see? nicknames are useful ;D

Yes, I had it on an Antal Dorati LP!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on October 19, 2017, 03:02:12 PM

Quote from: amw on October 19, 2017, 02:56:35 PMWith Symphony No. 93 I mostly remember the finale, its butter-wouldn't-melt-in-mouth main theme, and its idiosyncratic excursion to D-flat major at one point with a solo cello, but I guess "The One That Goes Into D-flat Major At One Point" isn't a very good nickname

Are you telling me, you're sitting in the concert hall, and you say to yourself, "interesting that it has gone into D-flat major"?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 19, 2017, 03:02:37 PM

Quote from: Scarpia on October 19, 2017, 02:27:29 PM
The only Haydn Symphony I heard in concert was "The Flatulent."

I've heard a few more Haydn symphonies, not many though, considering the fact that I've been attending concerts for 50 years. I suppose that is proof Papa isn't popular with un-HIP orchestras and their audiences. A pity.

75 Aldo Ceccato/Cleveland
101 Welser-Möst/LPO
96 Szell/Cleveland
26 Boulez/Cleveland
104 Celibidache/Stuttgart RSO

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on October 19, 2017, 03:05:11 PM

93 is a good one to hear live. If the bassoonist doesn't turn red in the face, he's not doing it right. :)

I think it was the Mostly Mozart Festival Orchestra. More than 30 years ago. :(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: amw on October 19, 2017, 03:10:35 PM

Quote from: Scarpia on October 19, 2017, 03:02:12 PM
Are you telling me, you're sitting in the concert hall, and you say to yourself, "interesting that it has gone into D-flat major"?

well yeah? the first time I heard no. 93 was in a live concert and among many moments that stood out was one where the orchestra was hammering away at unison Cs in the finale and then stopped except for one, very tentative, solo cello, and I thought "damn, this is a special moment" and then the orchestra came back in on Db fortissimo and started with the main theme again...

(also oops I checked a score just now and it actually doesn't go into Db major, that hammering is on C# not C and thus the theme actually comes back in the tonic just like every other symphony. I guess that is the danger of going to hear a period instrument group playing at A=426 or whatever when you have absolute pitch :( )

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 19, 2017, 03:12:26 PM

Quote from: Scarpia on October 19, 2017, 03:05:11 PM
93 is a good one to hear live. If the bassoonist doesn't turn red in the face, he's not doing it right. :)

Szell's bassoonist probably had a stroke after hitting that note. Best fart on record 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on October 19, 2017, 03:19:37 PM

Quote from: amw on October 19, 2017, 03:10:35 PM
well yeah? the first time I heard no. 93 was in a live concert and among many moments that stood out was one where the orchestra was hammering away at unison Cs in the finale and then stopped except for one, very tentative, solo cello, and I thought "damn, this is a special moment" and then the orchestra came back in on Db fortissimo and started with the main theme again...

(also oops I checked a score just now and it actually doesn't go into Db major, that hammering is on C# not C and thus the theme actually comes back in the tonic just like every other symphony. I guess that is the danger of going to hear a period instrument group playing at A=426 or whatever when you have absolute pitch :( )

Absolute pitch, fair enough. But the newly minted nickname "The One That Goes into D-flat at One Point" is canceled. :(

Anyway, I have to listen to that one.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on October 19, 2017, 03:21:02 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 19, 2017, 03:12:26 PM
Szell's bassoonist probably had a stroke after hitting that note. Best fart on record 8)

Sarge

Maybe I'll listen to my Harnoncourt recording. He probably did research on 18th century culinary history to inform the performance of the faux fart. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on October 19, 2017, 03:23:44 PM

Quote from: Scarpia on October 19, 2017, 03:21:02 PM
Maybe I'll listen to my Harnoncourt recording. He probably did research on 18th century culinary history to inform the performance of the faux fart. :)

;D :D ;D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: amw on October 19, 2017, 03:29:46 PM

Quote from: Scarpia on October 19, 2017, 03:19:37 PM
Absolute pitch, fair enough. But the newly minted nickname "The One That Goes into D-flat at One Point" is canceled. :(

Anyway, I have to listen to that one.

I did a quick search and the concert I was at is actually on youtube!
https://www.youtube.com/v/S26buIrMJoo

Living in the UK had its perks I guess....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2017, 04:04:31 PM

Quote from: Scarpia on October 19, 2017, 03:19:37 PM
Absolute pitch, fair enough. But the newly minted nickname "The One That Goes into D-flat at One Point" is canceled. :(

Anyway, I have to listen to that one.

I don't have perfect pitch, or any pitch at all, but I remember that Largo well, because the setup for the Great Bassoon Fart Joke is an alternation between a theme that sounds like an old French ouverture style and a very modern sounding theme, like Haydn was contrasting the two to show the difference. He comes back with the 'old' theme very quiet and they nearly stop, then when you expect the 'new' theme straight out, you get the great bassoon fart instead, then the 'new' theme. I have to believe the audience was rolling in the aisles back in 1792 when that one premiered. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on October 19, 2017, 07:27:22 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 19, 2017, 04:04:31 PMI have to believe the audience was rolling in the aisles back in 1792 when that one premiered. :)

Mozart would have loved it. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 20, 2017, 04:54:02 AM

Quote from: Scarpia on October 19, 2017, 07:27:22 PM
Mozart would have loved it. :)

No question about it. :D

Which provokes some thoughts about it: Haydn had it verified for him that Mozart's death was more than a rumor just before Christmas 1791. This was his first symphony of 1792, probably being composed at the same time. It almost makes one wonder if this was some sort of tributary fart? Bearing in mind that Haydn was no more nor less earthy than his best friend... :-\ That will bear some looking in to.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 20, 2017, 05:21:15 AM

Quote from: ørfeo on October 19, 2017, 02:16:24 PM
Key does help a bit, but then cross-checked with period or number. For instance I'm aware in my head of a C major London and an E flat major London that isn't the Drum Roll...

This is 99, the one Sarge dubbed "the cat" (because supposedly one theme sounds like meowing).
For me it is the one with the "clarinet fugue" in the finale (it's not really a fugue but clarinets are most prominent). The C major is #97 with the charming violin solo (marked "Salomon solo, ma piano") in the trio of the menuet and a nice variation second movement where at one stage the violins play sul ponticello for a strange sound effect (unfortunately one rarely hears this sounding as eerie as it could).
Both are great favorites of mine that I prefer to several nicknamed ones (such as Clock or Military).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on October 20, 2017, 09:14:07 AM

Did go ahead and listen to Harnoncourt's '93. He didn't really do justice to the fart, although I immensely enjoyed the spirited performance, particularly horns in the first movement. The moment in the finale where the orchestra comes to play the leading tone in unison, fortissimo, dissolving to a solo cello just before the main theme returns was indeed memorable. A wonderful play of trumpet and drums in the menuetto, as well.

This is one of the Haydn symphonies I remember specifically, probably because I had the LP back in the day.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 21, 2017, 06:25:45 AM

More Haydn fans out there than I ever expected... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 30, 2017, 04:29:17 PM

To know me is to know how much I like the 7 Last Words, no matter the particular arrangement presented. The original "instrumental oratorio", the string quartet or solo keyboard, all are well-suited to please. Now, ten years after he first presented it, Haydn has arranged it as an oratorio, believed by many to be the best version of all. Not sure about that myself, but that is not to say I don't enjoy it equally. And so in this essay I tried to find some interesting background about it. I think I did...

well, they were the 7 last phrases, actually... (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2017/10/1796-the-music-part-3-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on November 05, 2017, 07:22:04 AM

(crosspost with A Little History thread)

Just the other week I've listened to Haydn's Paris Symphonies and a (heretical) thought crossed my mind. Supppose the six symphonies are disassembled in their constitutive movements and then these are shuffled randomly to reconstitute a symphony. For instance, we could get the first movement from The Bear, the second movement from The Hen, the minuet from The Queen and the finale of the 87th. Question(s): would it make any difference? Would this concoction be any less coherent than the originals? Would an unprevented listener be able to feel and tell that there is something wrong with it? At first sight I'm tempted to answer in the negative.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: ritter on November 05, 2017, 07:33:08 AM

Quote from: Florestan on November 05, 2017, 07:22:04 AM
(crosspost with A Little History thread)

Just the other week I've listened to Haydn's Paris Symphonies and a (heretical) thought crossed my mind. Supppose the six symphonies are disassembled in their constitutive movements and then these are shuffled randomly to reconstitute a symphony. For instance, we could get the first movement from The Bear, the second movement from The Hen, the minuet from The Queen and the finale of the 87th. Question(s): would it make any difference? Would this concoction be any less coherent than the originals? Would an unprevented listener be able to feel and tell that there is something wrong with it? At first sight I'm tempted to answer in the negative.

Gurn alert!!!! ;)

Good evening, Andrei!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on November 05, 2017, 07:42:17 AM

Quote from: ritter on November 05, 2017, 07:33:08 AM
Gurn alert!!!! ;)

Good evening, Andrei!

Good evening, Rafael!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on November 05, 2017, 07:54:12 AM

First of all, the movements would have to be transposed into the proper keys. And even then I do not think that it would work for the Paris symphonies. Or at least that they would be more coherent and convincing in there original shape. E.g. in the case of the "Bear" one has the rustic music reminiscent of the dancing bear both at the end of the slow movement and (different music but evoking similar associations) in the drones of the finale and the minuet is also more folksy and less courtly than in #85.

But it might work for some other (usually earlier) symphonies (not all of them, e.g. in the "Farewell" there could not be any changes) and there are a even few example of movements that were re-used or re-shuffled. For his #89 he re-used two movements from a divertimento or notturno (with lira organizzata) but they were expanded and re-orchestrated, the Romance from the Military symphony also stems from such a lighter piece (but was obviously expanded to get the fanfares/drum etc.).
Although this is far less frequent even in early/middle Haydn than with e.g. Handel (who of course was a notorious re-user and borrower from himself and others) and other baroque composers.

It depends on the piece, of course, but I think that in the mature classical style most large scale works have a certain coherence and a specific character. Even late Haydn works might not be such clear cases as e.g. Mozart's last three symphonies each of which uses a different orchestra and has a very specific indivual character but Haydn's are certainly far closer to them than to some Handel concerti assembled by the publisher (or the composer) with frequent re-using of basically the same music, only in slightly different orchestrations.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 05, 2017, 08:39:55 AM

As Haydn continued to expand his art, more and more of his works were cyclic, just in the sense you would use it for many 19th century works. Many times, the introduction presented the themes for the first movement, and sometimes later movements harked back to that too. Also, even as early as #81 (IIRC) he presents key statements in the opening movement which don't get resolved until the finale.

That said, if Haydn DID present a theme in the introduction and it wasn't elaborated later on, would you know it? I probably wouldn't, but an expert probably would be waiting for it to happen and be disappointed when it didn't. Since Haydn's fondest desire was to write works that would make the experts happy, while at the same time making ME happy, he would have felt he failed if he didn't accomplish one or another of those goals.

Cyclicism is a topic I've hit on several times in my symphony essays. Any time I've found mention of it in the literature I've tried to follow it up because it is interesting to me in tracing his growth as a composer. However, as far as the original question goes, if you made the proper key changes that Jo mentioned, at my state of musical knowledge I would be just as entertained as not. Most of you probably would too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on November 05, 2017, 09:15:01 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 05, 2017, 08:39:55 AM
as far as the original question goes, if you made the proper key changes that Jo mentioned, at my state of musical knowledge I would be just as entertained as not. Most of you probably would too. :)

I expected a rebuttal and I got an approval instead. Great! Thank you, Gurn. :laugh:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on November 05, 2017, 09:51:37 AM

Two examples of explicit, "cyclic" returns of earlier movements are in #31 where the opening "hornsignal" returns as a thrilling conclusion to the (somewhat lengthy...) variation finale and #46 where first movement, menuet and finale have thematic relationships and the menuet theme is explictly recapitulated in a section of the finale. So Haydn was experimenting with such stuff quite early on but it was not in any way standard or a "rule" and there are other pieces where movements could be swapped for others.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: BasilValentine on November 05, 2017, 01:41:55 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on November 05, 2017, 09:51:37 AM
Two examples of explicit, "cyclic" returns of earlier movements are in #31 where the opening "hornsignal" returns as a thrilling conclusion to the (somewhat lengthy...) variation finale and #46 where first movement, menuet and finale have thematic relationships and the menuet theme is explictly recapitulated in a section of the finale. So Haydn was experimenting with such stuff quite early on but it was not in any way standard or a "rule" and there are other pieces where movements could be swapped for others.

The pattern in #46 is anticipated a couple of years earlier in the cyclic design of CPE Bach's Concerto in C minor Wq 43 #4, which, if memory serves, also reprises a minuet theme in the finale, in this case as part of a more comprehensive cyclic design. There are other examples among Bach's works of dramatic cyclic structures in which the theme of an earlier movement is reprised to address unresolved tensions, most notably the Prussian Sonata no. 3 in E.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on November 05, 2017, 03:56:00 PM

On an unrelated note, I just listened to a recording of the Nelson Mass conducted by Ferencsik Janos (Hungarian State SO, with Stader, Hellman, Haefliger, and von Halem). It's the most energetic performance I can remember. Surely a pleaser.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on November 06, 2017, 03:51:51 AM

Quote from: BasilValentine on November 05, 2017, 01:41:55 PM
The pattern in #46 is anticipated a couple of years earlier in the cyclic design of CPE Bach's Concerto in C minor Wq 48 #4, which, if memory serves, also reprises a minuet theme in the finale, in this case as part of a more comprehensive cyclic design. There are other examples among Bach's works of dramatic cyclic structures in which the theme of an earlier movement is reprised to address unresolved tensions, most notably the Prussian Sonata no. 3 in E.

That's interesting; I know the concerto (not sure about the sonata) and you are right, I think an even larger section returns than in Haydn's case. For me these and other (often more subtle) examples are enough to show that it while there were also "loose" works and movements could be transferred to other pieces there was also a clear tendency to achieve some kind of unity. There are some baroque works that do that, even in suites the pieces of which could and would be played in isolation one often finds the Allemande and Courante starting with similar motives but high classical multi-movement works usually strive for a different and stronger unity than baroque suites.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: BasilValentine on November 06, 2017, 05:01:12 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on November 06, 2017, 03:51:51 AM
That's interesting; I know the concerto (not sure about the sonata) and you are right, I think an even larger section returns than in Haydn's case. For me these and other (often more subtle) examples are enough to show that it while there were also "loose" works and movements could be transferred to other pieces there was also a clear tendency to achieve some kind of unity. There are some baroque works that do that, even in suites the pieces of which could and would be played in isolation one often finds the Allemande and Courante starting with similar motives but high classical multi-movement works usually strive for a different and stronger unity than baroque suites.

Initially I incorrectly identified the concerto as Wq 48 #4 when in fact it is Wq 43#4. Anyway, the concerto is truly cyclic in that the finale is a reprise of the first movement, but with interpolations from the other movements, including the minuet (weird in itself for a concerto).

Prussian 3 is a truly remarkable work in its unprecedented (in 1742) dramatic approach to thematic processes. The opening theme, like many of Beethoven's later experiments, contains an internal opposition of motive, mode and phrasing that renders it impossible to recapitulate in anything close to a literal fashion. On the return the theme is truncated into a stark, halting restatement of the opposition. This intensification of thematic conflict in the recap creates tension unresolved at the finale cadence. This, I believe, is why the slow movement's theme transposes the notes of the first movement theme note for note into the relative minor — the unresolved tension from the first movement demands attention.

I've always wondered if Haydn and Beethoven knew the Prussians. They were, I believe, among Bach's better known works, but I could find no direct evidence.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2017, 07:10:34 AM

Quote from: BasilValentine on November 06, 2017, 05:01:12 AM
I've always wondered if Haydn and Beethoven knew the Prussians. They were, I believe, among Bach's better known works, but I could find no direct evidence.

No need to wonder: Haydn was a huge fan of CPE Bach, he had his book, The True Art of Playing the Clavier and also many of his scores, which he says he "couldn't go to sleep last night until I had played them all through". The only candidates, due to publication dates in Vienna for various works, are the Prussian Sonatas. So I would say certainly he did.

Beethoven, before he moved from Bonn to Vienna, was a student of Christian Neefe, who taught him the keyboard by playing 'Old Bach's 48' (The Well-Tempered Clavier). It is unimaginable that Beethoven, like Mozart and Haydn before him, didn't also learn from The True Art of Playing the Clavier. By the time competitive 'piano schools' came out, like Turk's, for example, Beethoven didn't need it anymore. :) Don't know about the Prussian Sonatas there, although certainly the ones "Für Kenner und Liebhaber"

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: BasilValentine on November 06, 2017, 11:27:46 AM

Thanks Gurn! ^ ^ ^ Hadn't put that together.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 06, 2017, 11:51:00 AM

Quote from: BasilValentine on November 06, 2017, 11:27:46 AM
Thanks Gurn! ^ ^ ^ Hadn't put that together.

It's handy for a theoretician and an historian to get together now and again... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 08, 2017, 07:11:46 AM

Vol 5 has been issued (80, 81, 19 and Krauss C minor). Just ordered it from Amazon DE

[asin] B076B568F5[/asin]

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 08, 2017, 08:03:47 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 08, 2017, 07:11:46 AM
Vol 5 has been issued (80, 81, 19 and Krauss C minor). Just ordered it from Amazon DE

[asin] B076B568F5[/asin]

Sarge

Great! It should be here within a year... :-\ I'll go see if Amazon UK has it, that's where I got the last one. Thanks for the info, Sarge.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on November 08, 2017, 03:48:10 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 08, 2017, 08:03:47 AM
Great! It should be here within a year... :-\ I'll go see if Amazon UK has it, that's where I got the last one. Thanks for the info, Sarge.

8)

I ordered it last night from Arkivmusic, which lists it as in stock
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=2261454

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Old Listener on November 09, 2017, 10:05:29 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 08, 2017, 07:11:46 AM
Vol 5 has been issued (80, 81, 19 and Krauss C minor). Just ordered it from Amazon DE

[asin] B076B568F5[/asin]

Sarge

The album is available as a download on eClassical.com. You can listen to the entire album in 30 sec. chunks for free.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 10, 2017, 03:26:51 AM

Quote from: Old Listener on November 09, 2017, 10:05:29 PM
You can listen to the entire album in 30 sec. chunks for free.

You don't say. 0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on November 10, 2017, 03:58:22 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 08, 2017, 07:11:46 AM
Vol 5 has been issued (80, 81, 19 and Krauss C minor). Just ordered it from Amazon DE

[asin] B076B568F5[/asin]

Sarge

I streamed it from Apple Music...it's good, but I would've preferred more Armonico performances with this cycle. But I'm thrilled that there have been two new recordings of No. 80 in the past two years (Dantone and Antonini)!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 10, 2017, 04:35:30 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on November 10, 2017, 03:58:22 AM
I streamed it from Apple Music...it's good, but I would've preferred more Armonico performances with this cycle.

Yeah, I'm surprised they changed orchestras. My copy arrived today.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 10, 2017, 06:53:44 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 10, 2017, 04:35:30 AM
Yeah, I'm surprised they changed orchestras. My copy arrived today.

Sarge

According to the Haydn 2032 website, right from the beginning it was always the plan to use Armonico for the works needing a smaller orchestra and Basel for the later works with big band. #19 is an outlier in that scheme, being the actual #8 from ca 58-60 (in other words, it's a Morzin symphony, pre-Esterházy). I think Antonini (quite rightly) really likes to mix them up. But if they are only playing it with a smaller portion, should be OK. Haydn played it with ~12 plus himself...

I am also delighted to see another #80 (and 81), while it was a thrill to finally have A version, it is always nicer to have 2 or 3. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 10, 2017, 07:24:16 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 10, 2017, 06:53:44 AM
According to the Haydn 2032 website, right from the beginning it was always the plan to use Armonico for the works needing a smaller orchestra and Basel for the later works with big band. #19 is an outlier in that scheme, being the actual #8 from ca 58-60 (in other words, it's a Morzin symphony, pre-Esterházy). I think Antonini (quite rightly) really likes to mix them up. But if they are only playing it with a smaller portion, should be OK. Haydn played it with ~12 plus himself...

Antonini uses a somewhat smaller orchestra in #19: 15 strings vs 20 strings in 80 and 81. It's not audibly different to my ears.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 10, 2017, 07:28:22 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 10, 2017, 07:24:16 AM
Antonini uses a somewhat smaller orchestra in #19: 15 strings vs 20 strings in 80 and 81. It's not audibly different to my ears.

Sarge

Thanks. I know I have read searing complaints about "tiny" orchestras and when I listened for myself I only heard the music. 15 would be generous compared to Hogwood or Goodman, I think. I need to check that out. Everybody uses more than Haydn did though. Not like he had a choice, but he did craft the music for the forces at hand. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on November 10, 2017, 07:30:41 AM

Haydn 2032. Are they kidding? Shouldn't they plan to finish it before the polar ice caps melt?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on November 10, 2017, 07:42:32 AM

Quote from: Scarpia on November 10, 2017, 07:30:41 AM
Haydn 2032. Are they kidding? Shouldn't they plan to finish it before the polar ice caps melt?

Long range optimism. But dragging it out that long is dangerous. I hope Antonini has better luck than Fey.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on November 10, 2017, 07:50:10 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 10, 2017, 07:42:32 AM
Long range optimism. But dragging it out that long is dangerous. I hope Antonini has better luck than Fey.

Sarge

I hope I have better luck than Fey.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 10, 2017, 08:15:24 AM

Quote from: Scarpia on November 10, 2017, 07:30:41 AM
Haydn 2032. Are they kidding? Shouldn't they plan to finish it before the polar ice caps melt?

I've already planned to buy the last disk as an 80th birthday present to myself. I have it pre-ordered at Amazon... ::)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 10, 2017, 08:16:20 AM

Quote from: Scarpia on November 10, 2017, 07:50:10 AM
I hope I have better luck than Fey.

No lie. Maybe they have a contingency plan. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on November 10, 2017, 03:54:13 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 10, 2017, 08:15:24 AM
I've already planned to buy the last disk as an 80th birthday present to myself. I have it pre-ordered at Amazon... ::)

8)

Hmm... the box set as a retirement gift?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 10, 2017, 03:57:33 PM

Quote from: ørfeo on November 10, 2017, 03:54:13 PM
Hmm... the box set as a retirement gift?

:D

I would have liked that, but my retirement is firmly set for next December, and these guys just aren't going to make it. I know they are wanting to tour and perform all of these before they go on record, and really, that probably makes the playing that much better, but ~18 years really IS a long-term project. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on November 10, 2017, 04:55:58 PM

No no, I meant MY retirement.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 10, 2017, 04:58:42 PM

Quote from: ørfeo on November 10, 2017, 04:55:58 PM
No no, I meant MY retirement.

Well, if I was shooting for 2032 for that, I can hardly think of a better self-gift. :) I'm curious, do you think there will still be CD's or something along the lines of physical media by then? The concept of streaming a new release for my 80th birthday depresses the hell out of me... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on November 10, 2017, 07:11:08 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 10, 2017, 04:58:42 PM
I'm curious, do you think there will still be CD's or something along the lines of physical media by then?

There better bloody well be.

Anyway, I think total reliance on the streaming model is fundamentally unviable for most artists, at least as things stand. Streaming does not involve the selling of goods, only of a service, where your music just gets added to an ever-growing pile. Maybe CDs are on the way out, but I doubt having something for sale is on the way out. If I can't have CDs, I will still prefer FLAC or similar, something I can actually purchase.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 11, 2017, 06:27:08 AM

Quote from: ørfeo on November 10, 2017, 07:11:08 PM
There better bloody well be.

Anyway, I think total reliance on the streaming model is fundamentally unviable for most artists, at least as things stand. Streaming does not involve the selling of goods, only of a service, where your music just gets added to an ever-growing pile. Maybe CDs are on the way out, but I doubt having something for sale is on the way out. If I can't have CDs, I will still prefer FLAC or similar, something I can actually purchase.

I completely agree with that. It isn't the quality of the media that puts me off, it's the non-reality of it, I think. I like FLAC, I immediately copy every disk I buy to FLAC and it is what I usually listen to. But the key point is "every disk I buy". I want physical media, dammit. >:(

Oh well, maybe there will be a great replacement. If I had cornered the market on small capacity thumb drives, I would package disks on them, including PDF liner notes. I have seen drives with graphics on the case, so even that could be taken care of. Boy, what a nice idea that is. Keep it between us, don't tell anyone, OK? :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on November 11, 2017, 06:33:21 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 11, 2017, 06:27:08 AM
I completely agree with that. It isn't the quality of the media that puts me off, it's the non-reality of it, I think. I like FLAC, I immediately copy every disk I buy to FLAC and it is what I usually listen to. But the key point is "every disk I buy". I want physical media, dammit. >:(

Oh well, maybe there will be a great replacement. If I had cornered the market on small capacity thumb drives, I would package disks on them, including PDF liner notes. I have seen drives with graphics on the case, so even that could be taken care of. Boy, what a nice idea that is. Keep it between us, don't tell anyone, OK? :D

8)

Why is that better than an external hard drive? I am copying every CD to FLAC and scanning the booklet to pdf. Every CD gets its own folder with FLAC files and booklet.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 11, 2017, 06:37:08 AM

Quote from: Scarpia on November 11, 2017, 06:33:21 AM
Why is that better than an external hard drive? I am copying every CD to FLAC and scanning the booklet to pdf. Every CD gets its own folder with FLAC files and booklet.

I'm not talking about a storage solution, I'm talking about buying physical media in the post-CD age. Of course, I copy every CD onto 2 of 3 external hard drives the day I receive it. But the CD itself is carefully preserved, and I by god own it. That is the point. I (and not just me) am not into downloading stuff. I don't want to own 100% of nothing. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Parsifal on November 11, 2017, 07:23:54 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 11, 2017, 06:37:08 AM
I'm not talking about a storage solution, I'm talking about buying physical media in the post-CD age. Of course, I copy every CD onto 2 of 3 external hard drives the day I receive it. But the CD itself is carefully preserved, and I by god own it. That is the point. I (and not just me) am not into downloading stuff. I don't want to own 100% of nothing. :)

I felt that way too, but my attitude has evolved. In practice I still purchase discs because even if I just want a FLAC file a new or used copy is typically cheaper than a lossless download (when that is even available).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 11, 2017, 07:31:21 AM

Quote from: Scarpia on November 11, 2017, 07:23:54 AM
I felt that way too, but my attitude has evolved. In practice I still purchase discs because even if I just want a FLAC file a new or used copy is typically cheaper than a lossless download (when that is even available).

And maybe I will too, but so far it hasn't worked that way. I do buy downloads of things I am curious about but are outside of my main interests, but if it is within my scope, I will buy the disk even if I already have the download. As you say, used CD's are virtually being given away these days. "What, you giving that away? I'll take it..." :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on November 13, 2017, 12:35:17 PM

Hurwitz saying on CT that the Fey cycle is not going to continue. Don't know if he is privy to info we don't have, or if he is guessing.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on November 13, 2017, 04:38:23 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on November 08, 2017, 07:11:46 AM
Vol 5 has been issued (80, 81, 19 and Krauss C minor). Just ordered it from Amazon DE

[asin] B076B568F5[/asin]

Sarge

My copy arrived today. Listened already. Quite good. The Kraus was selected because (among other things) FJH called it a masterpiece.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 13, 2017, 05:26:37 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 13, 2017, 04:38:23 PM
My copy arrived today. Listened already. Quite good. The Kraus was selected because (among other things) FJH called it a masterpiece.

Kraus comes to visit (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/01/1783-the-year.html)

Kraus was sent by his King on a trip of Europe to broaden his horizons, so to speak. He had taken his symphony in c# minor and transposed it down to c minor to have something to play on his travels. He also left out the minuet, for whatever reason. Anyway, he spent a lot of time at Eszterháza with Haydn, and left a copy of the symphony as a gift for the Prince. It's a first rate work. I have the Concerto Köln recording, I look forward to hearing this one. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on November 13, 2017, 05:36:40 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 13, 2017, 05:26:37 PM
Kraus comes to visit (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/01/1783-the-year.html)

Kraus was sent by his King on a trip of Europe to broaden his horizons, so to speak. He had taken his symphony in c# minor and transposed it down to c minor to have something to play on his travels. He also left out the minuet, for whatever reason. Anyway, he spent a lot of time at Eszterháza with Haydn, and left a copy of the symphony as a gift for the Prince. It's a first rate work. I have the Concerto Köln recording, I look forward to hearing this one. :)

8)

The liner notes don't refer to the minuet, but do refer to an extended quote from Gluck.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 13, 2017, 05:39:45 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 13, 2017, 05:36:40 PM
The liner notes don't refer to the minuet, but do refer to an extended quote from Gluck.

They probably would have only mentioned it if they had left it out, too. :) IIRC, Gluck said some nice stuff about Kraus, as well he should have. If Kraus had been in Vienna instead of Stockholm, and hadn't died nearly as young as Mozart, he would have been a star instead of a footnote. IMO, of course.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on November 14, 2017, 06:15:43 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 13, 2017, 05:26:37 PM
Kraus comes to visit (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/01/1783-the-year.html)

QuoteThe old canard that Haydn had little or no involvement in anything but writing music is patently false

As in the case of Mozart too. I posted something along these very lines in Gurn's Classical Corner, but nobody cared to comment...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 14, 2017, 06:35:43 AM

Quote from: Florestan on November 14, 2017, 06:15:43 AM
As in the case of Mozart too. I posted something along these very lines in Gurn's Classical Corner, but nobody cared to comment...

And in Mozart's case, there is some documentation for it. I find it interesting that later historians would take Nannerl's word for it that Mozart would do some crazy shit, and was a bad money manager etc. etc., but when she says he was really fascinated with math and arithmetic in particular, or he knew a great variety of things outside of music, they totally ignored it because it didn't fit their preconceptions. Which were pretty much the same as Salieri's flashbacks in Amadeus. When I get a bit further in my blog, I will publish a list of all the books in Haydn's library after his death. You will be taken aback.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on November 14, 2017, 07:49:20 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 14, 2017, 06:35:43 AM
When I get a bit further in my blog, I will publish a list of all the books in Haydn's library after his death. You will be taken aback.

No, I won't*, but others might very well be. ;D

* I know for a fact and by personal research that Classical Era composers and musical aesthetics are oftenly and ideologically misconstrued and misunderstood...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 14, 2017, 08:21:28 AM

Quote from: Florestan on November 14, 2017, 07:49:20 AM
No, I won't*, but others might very well be. ;D

* I know for a fact and by personal research that Classical Era composers and musical aesthetics are oftenly and ideologically misconstrued and misunderstood...

Yep. ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 19, 2017, 05:57:50 PM

We like to think we know all about Haydn's works, but most don't know anything about these. In fact, Haydn intended them to be one of his crown jewels, still...

We'll turn Vienna into Mini-London (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2017/11/1796-the-music-part-4-.html)

Have a read,
Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on November 19, 2017, 06:14:44 PM

Do you have any idea how familiar Schubert and Brahms were with these works? They being the composers best known in our time for that genre...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 19, 2017, 06:34:41 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 19, 2017, 06:14:44 PM
Do you have any idea how familiar Schubert and Brahms were with these works? They being the composers best known in our time for that genre...

Do I know specifically? No, but I'm sure the information is readily available. I would surmise that they were very familiar with them because they were truly popular among people who were into singing. It would be hard to imagine a circumstance by which they would have escaped attention, most especially the religious ones. Schubert would know them for sure, Brahms most likely.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 17, 2017, 03:58:29 PM

Boy, sure been quiet in da Haus! :P

I have now arrived at some of the most important works of Haydn's career, and approaching them with the aim on writing about them is imposing. Fortunately, only this year (1796) has more than one of them, so I can sneak up on them a bit. :) The first of the Six Great Masses is the Heiligmesse for St. Bernard de Offida. I found out plenty, and even at that just scratched the surface. Have a look and see if it jibes up with what you always thought about it. I know I had a couple of surprises!

The Blessed Bernard? Who dat? (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2017/12/1796-the-music-part-5-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on December 17, 2017, 05:49:15 PM

The third piece from King Alfred does need to be recorded. Just record enough of the succeeding dialogue to give the listener an idea of why the music breaks off.

I mean, singers do bleeding chunks that break off suddenly all the time...it's no stretch for a bleeding chunk which the composer himself breaks off.

There is a Mass which can be called predecessor to LvB 9:. his own Missa Solemnis.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 17, 2017, 06:47:31 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 17, 2017, 05:49:15 PM
The third piece from King Alfred does need to be recorded. Just record enough of the succeeding dialogue to give the listener an idea of why the music breaks off.

I mean, singers do bleeding chunks that break off suddenly all the time...it's no stretch for a bleeding chunk which the composer himself breaks off.

There is a Mass which can be called predecessor to LvB 9:. his own Missa Solemnis.

I would like to hear it, although I'm not sure it has even been published yet, Landon did the others but said he didn't bother with this. Maybe one day. Do you have the Hickox disk? It is also in the Complete Masses, but this cover was too perfect. :)

Yes, being as they are back-to-back works, the influence of one on the other is practically inevitable. I always thought of the Choral Fantasy as a real preview of the 4th movement of the 9th.... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on December 17, 2017, 07:01:38 PM

Don't have the Chandos recordings: the Naxos set and the Decca set that involves Gardiner are what I have.

Maybe we can start a GoFundMe campaign to record that duet.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 17, 2017, 07:04:41 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on December 17, 2017, 07:01:38 PM
Don't have the Chandos recordings: the Naxos set and the Decca set that involves Gardiner are what I have.

Maybe we can start a GoFundMe campaign to record that duet.

Boy, if that was do-able; I have a nice list of never-been-recorded Haydn, they would be perfect to get done before the next set of London Symphonies hits the shelves. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 18, 2017, 06:10:52 PM

I was just thinking how interesting it would be do to some sort of comparison of Haydn with his brother Michael. It might be interesting to compare what they were doing, how much they might have followed each other (or not), influences that were the same or different, etc. Not saying we expect you to do it or anything, just one of those, "Hey, that would be interesting moments."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 18, 2017, 06:18:03 PM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 18, 2017, 06:10:52 PM
I was just thinking how interesting it would be do to some sort of comparison of Haydn with his brother Michael. It might be interesting to compare what they were doing, how much they might have followed each other (or not), influences that were the same or different, etc. Not saying we expect you to do it or anything, just one of those, "Hey, that would be interesting moments."

I agree, it certainly would be nice to know a lot more than we do.

I've actually done quite a bit of the research, in a 'by-the-way' sort of manner so far. There are no extant letters between them, sadly, but they did have moments where they met or at least intended to, and it seems they must have been in fairly regular contact even though we don't know what was said. I can tell you that when we get past the turn of the century, Michael will enter the discussion at least two or three times, far more than he has to date. Apparently, travel between Vienna and Salzburg in those days was not common.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on December 19, 2017, 03:56:30 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 17, 2017, 03:58:29 PM
The Blessed Bernard? Who dat? (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2017/12/1796-the-music-part-5-.html)

Excellent. Thanks a lot!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 19, 2017, 04:12:52 AM

Quote from: Florestan on December 19, 2017, 03:56:30 AM
Excellent. Thanks a lot!

Back at'cha! Glad you enjoyed. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on December 19, 2017, 04:17:34 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 19, 2017, 04:12:52 AM
Back at'cha! Glad you enjoyed. :)

8)

Your work is priceless. I humbly bow to your devotion and passion.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 19, 2017, 04:20:41 AM

Quote from: Florestan on December 19, 2017, 04:17:34 AM
Your work is priceless. I humbly bow to your devotion and passion.

Thank you. Sometimes I wish I wasn't the only person doing this, it's a monumental task. Fortunately, I love it, so I carry on happily. It's scary to think that if I was writing a book(s), this would just be an outline!! :o :o :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on December 19, 2017, 04:30:44 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 19, 2017, 04:20:41 AM
Thank you. Sometimes I wish I wasn't the only person doing this, it's a monumental task. Fortunately, I love it, so I carry on happily. It's scary to think that if I was writing a book(s), this would just be an outline!! :o :o :)

8)

Well, you should seriously consider assembling all the chapters in chronological order into a full pdf book(let). That would be an awesome and handy resource.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 19, 2017, 04:39:33 AM

Quote from: Florestan on December 19, 2017, 04:30:44 AM
Well, you should seriously consider assembling all the chapters in chronological order into a full pdf book(let). That would be an awesome and handy resource.

I'll have to give that some consideration. It will take some serious editing to turn it into something readable in that format, but what the heck, it could happen. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 19, 2017, 04:53:50 AM

There's no place like da Haus for the holidays!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 19, 2017, 05:29:20 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 19, 2017, 04:53:50 AM
There's no place like da Haus for the holidays!

I played a couple of Haydn Christmas pastorella's last night. Made me want to toss a log on the fire... 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on December 19, 2017, 05:32:59 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 19, 2017, 05:29:20 AM
I played a couple of Haydn Christmas pastorella's last night.

Any recommendation for recordings?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 19, 2017, 06:33:00 AM

Quote from: Florestan on December 19, 2017, 05:32:59 AM
Any recommendation for recordings?

This one is the only one I know. It also has some Christmas Night songs from Michael as well as Gruber's original version of Stille Nacht. PI, of course...

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 19, 2017, 12:40:43 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 19, 2017, 06:33:00 AM
This one is the only one I know. It also has some Christmas Night songs from Michael as well as Gruber's original version of Stille Nacht. PI, of course...

8)

Ordered that just now. Hopefully it will arrive within the next few days and I can play it at my parents-in-law's home on Christmas Eve. They love music of the classical period. Brahms, for example, is too modern for them :D

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 19, 2017, 12:48:48 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 19, 2017, 12:40:43 PM
Ordered that just now. Hopefully it will arrive within the next few days and I can play it at my parents-in-law's home on Christmas Eve. They love music of the classical period. Brahms, for example, is too modern for them :D

Sarge

Cool, my kind of folks. :) The Austrian things are very traditional and very nice, both the Haydn brothers did well, IMO. I know nothing about Gruber except for Silent Night.... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on December 19, 2017, 12:59:24 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 17, 2017, 03:58:29 PM
Boy, sure been quiet in da Haus! :P

That's because you've been quiet! But your new article rectifies that. Superb read. I like how you fearlessly speculate on the circumstances of the mass creations despite the lack of concrete evidence. Taking on the "experts": brave and thought provoking.

Listening to the Heiligmesse now (Weil, Tafelmusick).

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on December 19, 2017, 04:19:02 PM

Revisiting the Naxos set of masses and focusing just on the last 6 masses is high on my to do list. Not that the earlier ones aren't worthwhile, but I do feel I should become more familiar with the late ones. It's over a year since my first set of listens.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 19, 2017, 04:47:53 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on December 19, 2017, 12:59:24 PM
That's because you've been quiet! But your new article rectifies that. Superb read. I like how you fearlessly speculate on the circumstances of the mass creations despite the lack of concrete evidence. Taking on the "experts": brave and thought provoking.

Listening to the Heiligmesse now (Weil, Tafelmusick).

Sarge

Thanks for saying that, Sarge, I appreciate it. I guess you can tell that sometimes I get tired of reading speculation disguised as fact. I'm like "hell, I can do that...". :)

That's a really nice version, too. I'll check back into it as soon as Symphony #39 is over. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 19, 2017, 04:49:19 PM

Quote from: ørfeo on December 19, 2017, 04:19:02 PM
Revisiting the Naxos set of masses and focusing just on the last 6 masses is high on my to do list. Not that the earlier ones aren't worthwhile, but I do feel I should become more familiar with the late ones. It's over a year since my first set of listens.

Definitely a worthwhile project, one I am postponing so I can do them one at a time and not get confused. Paukenmesse next... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 20, 2017, 03:21:51 AM

"I can speculate with the best of 'em!"

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 20, 2017, 04:23:24 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 20, 2017, 03:21:51 AM
"I can speculate with the best of 'em!"

:D Strewth!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 06, 2018, 04:47:19 PM

1796 had to be a pretty busy year for Haydn. You would think at 64 years old, he would be kicking back a little bit, but we have already looked at the trumpet concerto, some keyboard trios, some 3 & 4 part songs and an oratorio version of the 7 Last Words, not to mention a Mass and some stage music. And so if there was anything left, it must be smallish, eh? But no, in fact it is biggish, not just a pair of Italian love ballads but another, even bigger and grander Mass! :o It was interesting to see what came along with this one. Check it out. :)

Damn Napoleon anyway! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2018/01/1796-the-music-part-6-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 06, 2018, 05:07:45 PM

Well, time to listen to that mass again!
I am a bit confused by this very tangential point

QuoteMrs. Kitty Peploe must have made some sort of impression upon him, although Landon, as well as every other writer I have checked, doesn't even tell us her first name

Kitty was usually a nickname for Catherine.....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 06, 2018, 05:21:30 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 06, 2018, 05:07:45 PM
Well, time to listen to that mass again!
I am a bit confused by this very tangential point
Kitty was usually a nickname for Catherine.....

No, what I mean is this: I have over a hundred books on Haydn, and not in a single one of them is she called anything but "Mrs. Peploe". I agree with you, in fact one of my exes was named Katherine/Kitty. However, it was only when I found the family journal I referenced that I even knew she was called 'Kitty'! I didn't venture any further along those lines because I couldn't say for sure if it was K or C, or if it was even Catherine... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 06, 2018, 05:27:59 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 06, 2018, 05:21:30 PM
No, what I mean is this: I have over a hundred books on Haydn, and not in a single one of them is she called anything but "Mrs. Peploe". I agree with you, in fact one of my exes was named Katherine/Kitty. However, it was only when I found the family journal I referenced that I even knew she was called 'Kitty'! I didn't venture any further along those lines because I couldn't say for sure if it was K or C, or if it was even Catherine... :-\

8)

Ah, now I understand. Danke!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 06, 2018, 05:31:46 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 06, 2018, 05:27:59 PM
Ah, now I understand. Danke!

Sie sind herzlich willkommen. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on January 06, 2018, 07:43:50 PM

I've enjoyed some of the earlier 2032 issues, but here the spunky little orchestra sounds wrong to me in these later works (80 & 81), including the coupled Kraus Symphony in C#.

[asin]B076B568F5[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 07, 2018, 06:26:49 AM

Quote from: Daverz on January 06, 2018, 07:43:50 PM
I've enjoyed some of the earlier 2032 issues, but here the spunky little orchestra sounds wrong to me in these later works (80 & 81), including the coupled Kraus Symphony in C#.

[asin]B076B568F5[/asin]

Well, it IS a different orchestra though. The Basel orchestra is larger than Il Giardino, possibly not as large as you would like, but at least as large (or larger) than Haydn's own opera orchestra that he wrote them for. I don't feel like there is a good argument for large until we get to the very next symphony, #82 for Paris. I hope then that they go with at least 40 pieces. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 07, 2018, 11:26:36 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 06, 2018, 04:47:19 PM
Damn Napoleon anyway! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2018/01/1796-the-music-part-6-.html)

Thanks,
8)

. . . and the horse he rode in on!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on January 07, 2018, 02:20:17 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 07, 2018, 06:26:49 AM
Well, it IS a different orchestra though. The Basel orchestra is larger than Il Giardino, possibly not as large as you would like, but at least as large (or larger) than Haydn's own opera orchestra that he wrote them for. I don't feel like there is a good argument for large until we get to the very next symphony, #82 for Paris. I hope then that they go with at least 40 pieces. :)

8)

Yes, I missed that. I'll probably give it another shot later.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: king ubu on January 11, 2018, 12:48:27 AM

Quote from: Daverz on January 06, 2018, 07:43:50 PM
I've enjoyed some of the earlier 2032 issues, but here the spunky little orchestra sounds wrong to me in these later works (80 & 81), including the coupled Kraus Symphony in C#.

[asin]B076B568F5[/asin]

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 07, 2018, 06:26:49 AM
Well, it IS a different orchestra though. The Basel orchestra is larger than Il Giardino, possibly not as large as you would like, but at least as large (or larger) than Haydn's own opera orchestra that he wrote them for. I don't feel like there is a good argument for large until we get to the very next symphony, #82 for Paris. I hope then that they go with at least 40 pieces. :)

8)

Different reason why I don't think this latest in the (wonderful) series is not quite up to scratch: somehow the orchestra - or the collaboration of Antonini with them - just doesn't have the same punch and nuttiness as Il giardino armonico. But I'll have to give it another spin again soon.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on January 11, 2018, 06:15:13 AM

I'm with you guys - although I don't necessarily think that the orchestra is the problem, I do think that they underplay the eccentricity and rhythmic inspiration of No. 80. Prefer the recent Dantone.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: king ubu on January 14, 2018, 01:13:09 AM

Saw the Kammerorchester Basel in concert on Friday, cond. Mario Venzago, Khatia Buniatishvili doing the Schumann after the Genoveva ouvrture, and then the Rhenish after the break. They were fine for sure, but somehow it felt as if Venzago was aiming for something a little bit more exciting and explosive than they were able to give to him (not a problem with Buniatishvili, she's almost too much in almost every respect ... I wasn't 100% convinced, but she was effective indeed).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 15, 2018, 04:48:14 AM

Quote from: Brian on January 11, 2018, 06:15:13 AM
I'm with you guys - although I don't necessarily think that the orchestra is the problem, I do think that they underplay the eccentricity and rhythmic inspiration of No. 80. Prefer the recent Dantone.

Dantone is a very fine recording, but in #80, Freiburg Baroque hasn't been topped yet. I am, as always, delighted to have another take on this work. Every performance shows a different idea of how to realize Haydn's vision, and I don't negatively criticize any of them. The fact that Dantone was the ONLY #81 (and 79) shows how much room there is for different ideas to be put out there. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 15, 2018, 05:04:02 AM

Quote from: king ubu on January 14, 2018, 01:13:09 AM
Saw the Kammerorchester Basel in concert on Friday, cond. Mario Venzago, Khatia Buniatishvili doing the Schumann after the Genoveva ouvrture, and then the Rhenish after the break. They were fine for sure, but somehow it felt as if Venzago was aiming for something a little bit more exciting and explosive than they were able to give to him (not a problem with Buniatishvili, she's almost too much in almost every respect ... I wasn't 100% convinced, but she was effective indeed).

SOunds like an interesting programme. Kammerorchester Basel also play modern instruments when they play newer repertoire like that. Did that seem to be the case? Maybe they just need a conductor who can light a fire under their asses. Although if Antonini didn't, who can? :o

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on January 15, 2018, 05:20:48 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 15, 2018, 05:04:02 AM
SOunds like an interesting programme. Kammerorchester Basel also play modern instruments when they play newer repertoire like that. Did that seem to be the case? Maybe they just need a conductor who can light a fire under their asses. Although if Antonini didn't, who can? :o

8)

Probably it has been mentioned before, but their disk with Viviane Chassot is a delight. The transcriptions sound completely idiomatic and the partnership between orchestra and soloist is perfect :)

[asin]B01N9KOYW7[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 15, 2018, 07:39:45 AM

Quote from: Gordo on January 15, 2018, 05:20:48 AM
Probably it has been mentioned before, but their disk with Viviane Chassot is a delight. The transcriptions sound completely idiomatic and the partnership between orchestra and soloist is perfect :)

[asin]B01N9KOYW7[/asin]

Certainly not been mentioned to me, I hadn't seen this disk before. That bears looking into! Thanks, G...

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The One on January 15, 2018, 09:08:07 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 15, 2018, 04:48:14 AM
but in #80, Freiburg Baroque hasn't been topped yet.

I take it I should buy this, should I? What else in 80?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 15, 2018, 10:31:31 AM

Quote from: The One on January 15, 2018, 09:08:07 AM
I take it I should buy this, should I? What else in 80?

Of the 3 in this grop (79-81), 80 was the only one that was ever recorded on PI, until last year when Dantone did all 3 of them. So there are just those 2, and then the new one with Antonini/Basel with 80 & 81, which just came out. So choices are thin on the ground for now:

79 - Dantone
80 - Freiburg Bar. - Dantone - Antonini
81 - Dantone - Antonini

They are Haydn's last symphonies before the Paris ones, and very interesting, which makes the lack of recordings all the harder to understand. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on January 15, 2018, 12:54:24 PM

on modern instruments the Orpheus chamber orchestra (DG) and as far as I recall also Adam Fischer (Nimbus/Brilliant) do a good job with 79-81. But this requires to buy three separate discs in the first case and probably a box set in the second.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 15, 2018, 06:07:32 PM

Email today from LSOLive announced a Haydn CD from Rattle
https://lsolive.lso.co.uk/collections/all-products/products/haydn-an-imaginary-orchestral-journey
Track listing
1. I. Introduction: Representation of Chaos: Largo (From The Creation, Hob.XXI:2)
2. II. The Earthquake: Presto e con tutta la forza (From The Seven Last Words of our Saviour on the Cross, Hob.XX:1)
3. IIIa. Sinfonia: Largo - Vivace assai (From L'isola disabitata, Hob.Ia:13)
4. IIIb. Sinfonia: Allegretto - Vivace (From L'isola disabitata, Hob.Ia:13)
5. IV. Largo (From Symphony No. 64 in A major, Hob.I:64)
6. V. Minuet & Trio (From Symphony No. 6 in D major, Hob.I:6)
7. VI. Finale: Presto (From Symphony No. 46 in B major, Hob.I:46)
8. VII. Finale: Prestissimo (From Symphony No. 60 in C major, Hob.I:60)
9. VIII. Introduction to Winter (Original version) (From The Seasons, Hob.XXI:3)
10. IXa. Finale: Presto (From Symphony No. 45 in F-sharp minor, Hob.I:45)
11. IXb. Finale: Adagio (From Symphony No. 45 in F-sharp minor, Hob.I:45)
12. X. Music for Musical Clocks (From Flötenuhrstücke, Hob.XIX:1-32)
13. XI. Finale: Allegro assai (From Symphony No. 90 in C major, Hob.I:90)

QuoteSir Simon Rattle pays homage to a composer he holds close to his heart with An Imaginary Orchestral Journey through the music of Joseph Haydn. Rattle trawls through the great composer's impressive catalogue, piecing together excerpts from symphonies, oratorios and operas spanning a 40-year period in what the director describes as 'a kind of greatest hits' format.

'The idea is to make a musical journey through all that is quirky and extraordinary, humorous and profound in Haydn,' the LSO's Music Director explains. Sir Simon's focus is on Haydn as innovator, showcasing his most forward-looking and outlandish works in 50 minutes of uninterrupted performance.

What results from Sir Simon's pasticcio is a clear image of the composer he sees to best represent the ideals of the Enlightenment, his selection meticulously arranged to best demonstrate Haydn's intelligence, wit and thoughtfulness.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The One on January 16, 2018, 01:13:04 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 15, 2018, 10:31:31 AM
Of the 3 in this grop (79-81), 80 was the only one that was ever recorded on PI, until last year when Dantone did all 3 of them. So there are just those 2, and then the new one with Antonini/Basel with 80 & 81, which just came out. So choices are thin on the ground for now:

79 - Dantone
80 - Freiburg Bar. - Dantone - Antonini
81 - Dantone - Antonini

They are Haydn's last symphonies before the Paris ones, and very interesting, which makes the lack of recordings all the harder to understand. :-\

8)

I'll try FBO then. I guess the problem with the 3 (79-81) which are for "public at large" is that I don't remember much after listening to them :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The One on January 16, 2018, 01:14:45 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on January 15, 2018, 12:54:24 PM
on modern instruments the Orpheus chamber orchestra (DG) and as far as I recall also Adam Fischer (Nimbus/Brilliant) do a good job with 79-81. But this requires to buy three separate discs in the first case and probably a box set in the second.

Thanks. I have the complete sets, Dorati, Fischer, Davies and the OCO. I was going for PI with the hand of the PI-in-Charge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on January 16, 2018, 01:23:37 AM

With all respect, I utterly fail to see the point of the Pasticcio offered by Rattle. While a similar procedure made some with Minkowski and other putting instrumental stuff from Rameau's Operas and Balletts together and similar suites from Rimsky operas have a long tradition, why do this with Haydn symphonies that are integral instrumental works and not overly long. Or if he wants to do a disc with ouvertures or introductions why throw in symphony movements?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Turner on January 16, 2018, 02:42:17 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on January 16, 2018, 01:23:37 AM
With all respect, I utterly fail to see the point of the Pasticcio offered by Rattle. While a similar procedure made some with Minkowski and other putting instrumental stuff from Rameau's Operas and Balletts together and similar suites from Rimsky operas have a long tradition, why do this with Haydn symphonies that are integral instrumental works and not overly long. Or if he wants to do a disc with ouvertures or introductions why throw in symphony movements?

I agree, most buyers would go for more, complete works, obtainable for the same price these days. Also, if one then continues the suggested journey and afterwards invests in other, complete recordings of some of the works, they are likely to be quite different in style and execution compared to the fragments presented by Rattle - with a possibility of them being disappointing too.

There´s an example of a positive review here, though
https://bachtrack.com/review-haydn-rattle-kozhukhin-london-symphony-july-2017

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 16, 2018, 03:02:40 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 15, 2018, 06:07:32 PM
Email today from LSOLive announced a Haydn CD from Rattle
https://lsolive.lso.co.uk/collections/all-products/products/haydn-an-imaginary-orchestral-journey (https://lsolive.lso.co.uk/collections/all-products/products/haydn-an-imaginary-orchestral-journey)
Track listing
1. I. Introduction: Representation of Chaos: Largo (From The Creation, Hob.XXI:2)
2. II. The Earthquake: Presto e con tutta la forza (From The Seven Last Words of our Saviour on the Cross, Hob.XX:1)
3. IIIa. Sinfonia: Largo - Vivace assai (From L'isola disabitata, Hob.Ia:13)
4. IIIb. Sinfonia: Allegretto - Vivace (From L'isola disabitata, Hob.Ia:13)
5. IV. Largo (From Symphony No. 64 in A major, Hob.I:64)
6. V. Minuet & Trio (From Symphony No. 6 in D major, Hob.I:6)
7. VI. Finale: Presto (From Symphony No. 46 in B major, Hob.I:46)
8. VII. Finale: Prestissimo (From Symphony No. 60 in C major, Hob.I:60)
9. VIII. Introduction to Winter (Original version) (From The Seasons, Hob.XXI:3)
10. IXa. Finale: Presto (From Symphony No. 45 in F-sharp minor, Hob.I:45)
11. IXb. Finale: Adagio (From Symphony No. 45 in F-sharp minor, Hob.I:45)
12. X. Music for Musical Clocks (From Flötenuhrstücke, Hob.XIX:1-32)
13. XI. Finale: Allegro assai (From Symphony No. 90 in C major, Hob.I:90)

Quote[...] Rattle trawls through the great composer's impressive catalogue [...]

Probably a question of my own remove from fishing activity, but I don't read trawl as an especially flattering verb 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 18, 2018, 06:17:37 PM

Cross post from WAYLT

The first CD of this set
[asin]B071FL96LX[/asin]
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81QkpVna2eL.jpg)
I am not into historical recordings, but this new remastering yields the best sound for a recording from the 1930s I have heard. The age of the recordings is still evident but far less an impediment to listening than usual.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Baron Scarpia on January 18, 2018, 10:59:10 PM

After all the discussion of the Symphony No 80, I had to break out my Davies set and give a listen. I was intrigued to see it is a minor key work (a special treat in Mozart or Haydn). Upon listening, it certainly is a quirky little piece. The first movement, in particular, has a peculiar form, with the grand pauses in the development section and an oddly structure recapitulation that doesn't give as literal repeat of the main material of the piece as is usually the case. The middle movements seemed more routine, but the finale had another surprise, an intensely syncopated opening theme. I only 'got' the rhythm of it after it was continued in a full tutti passage. A delightful work. Davies handled it well, I thought, although the tempos may be a bit on the broad side.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 19, 2018, 03:33:34 AM

Cool, both.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 19, 2018, 07:21:44 AM

Quote from: Baron Scarpia on January 18, 2018, 10:59:10 PM
After all the discussion of the Symphony No 80, I had to break out my Davies set and give a listen. I was intrigued to see it is a minor key work (a special treat in Mozart or Haydn). Upon listening, it certainly is a quirky little piece. The first movement, in particular, has a peculiar form, with the grand pauses in the development section and an oddly structure recapitulation that doesn't give as literal repeat of the main material of the piece as is usually the case. The middle movements seemed more routine, but the finale had another surprise, an intensely syncopated opening theme. I only 'got' the rhythm of it after it was continued in a full tutti passage. A delightful work. Davies handled it well, I thought, although the tempos may be a bit on the broad side.

When I wrote about this work originally (Symphony #80 and more (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/02/1784-the-music-part-1-.html)), I did a lot of research to see what the pros thought of it, since I found it nothing short of way cool, but I had a hard time figuring out what was going on. As it turns out, so did the pros! Anyway, to me, the first movement is a sort of rejection of the drama that dominated the Sturm und Drang, since every time he builds it up with fine, intense minor key drama, he immediately defuses the whole bomb with this almost silly little Ländler dance tune, then they pick right back up with the drama again. I love it, it totally dashes your expectations, which is Haydn at his best. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 19, 2018, 07:23:02 AM

He'll mess with your mind! He messed with mine!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The One on January 19, 2018, 09:07:25 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 19, 2018, 07:21:44 AM
did a lot of research...thought of it...I love it...totally dashes your expectations...which is Haydn at his best.

I benefited from our Vivaldi traffic a lot. I have the budget for Haydn but still have 10+ recordings waiting for me to listen. Can you do it for Haydn, compiling some of your favorite recordings, beginning with concertos, than chamber and solo piano, in a couple of days?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 19, 2018, 06:59:16 PM

Quote from: The One on January 19, 2018, 09:07:25 AM
I benefited from our Vivaldi traffic a lot. I have the budget for Haydn but still have 10+ recordings waiting for me to listen. Can you do it for Haydn, compiling some of your favorite recordings, beginning with concertos, than chamber and solo piano, in a couple of days?

Probably can, although my choices will probably only please me, since most people here are more mainstream than I am. You aren't too mainstream though, so you will probably like them too. :D

I'll have a go at it tomorrow. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The One on January 20, 2018, 01:24:31 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 19, 2018, 06:59:16 PM
Probably can, although my choices will probably only please me, since most people here are more mainstream than I am. You aren't too mainstream though, so you will probably like them too. :D

I'll have a go at it tomorrow. :)

8)

I can't define myself as mainstream or not, or PI or not. I am after enjoyable time and good performances of my favorite pieces.

In piano concertos I have two as reference, H18/4 and H18/11. In 18/4, Ax, Brautigam, Hamelin, Palumbo, Staier; in 18/11, the same minus Staier, plus Argerich and Pletnev.

In Violin Concertos, Accardo, Carmignola and Standage.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 21, 2018, 10:02:28 AM

1797 was a momentous year for Austria, thus for Haydn. For music lovers, it was the year of the Opus 76 quartets and the Austrian National Anthem. But the major character of the drama of that year wasn't a musician...

Now it's on! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2018/01/1797-the-year-part-1-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 21, 2018, 01:33:28 PM

I understand "deest" to mean a work has been deleted from the official catalogue?

So why are the orchestral and keyboard versions of Gott erhalte and the Insanae motet de-listed? Are they thought to be arrangements by other hands?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on January 21, 2018, 01:43:42 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 21, 2018, 01:33:28 PM
I understand "deest" to mean a work has been deleted from the official catalogue?

So why are the orchestral and keyboard versions of Gott erhalte and the Insanae motet de-listed? Are they thought to be arrangements by other hands?

I think it means unclassified rather than deleted - they haven't been assigned a number in the Hoboken category.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 21, 2018, 01:55:50 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 21, 2018, 01:33:28 PM
I understand "deest" to mean a work has been deleted from the official catalogue?

So why are the orchestral and keyboard versions of Gott erhalte and the Insanae motet de-listed? Are they thought to be arrangements by other hands?

No, they are works that are NOT listed. Never were. The keyboard variations were only definitively attributed to Haydn within the last 20 years. Variations in general are a problem since 87 people might write them. It was known that Haydn wrote SOME variations, but not certainly that he wrote THESE. He did.

I think that Hoboken maybe had problems with contrafacta in general. He doesn't even list ones that are certainly by Haydn, even when he lists the original work.

As for the orchestral version of "Gott erhalte...", there can be no telling why it isn't listed. The original score in Haydn's handwriting is in a museum in Vienna, likewise Elssler's fair copy. It has not been published in the 20th / 21st century, with the exception that Landon published it in full in Volume 4 of Chronicle & Works. Why no one has ever recorded it is totally beyond my understanding. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 21, 2018, 02:10:54 PM

Thanks for clearing that up (as much as it can be cleared up). But you raise another question. The Rohm catalogue of Vivaldi's works has been added on to with new discoveries, and so has the BWV listings for you-know-who. So why can't these works be given numbers? Is there something especially sacrosanct with the Hoboken numbers?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 21, 2018, 02:29:57 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 21, 2018, 02:10:54 PM
Thanks for clearing that up (as much as it can be cleared up). But you raise another question. The Rohm catalogue of Vivaldi's works has been added on to with new discoveries, and so has the BWV listings for you-know-who. So why can't these works be given numbers? Is there something especially sacrosanct with the Hoboken numbers?

Well, Hoboken is dead, of course, and it seems like no one has the fur to tackle it. Let me ask you though: Mozart's works all just got totally re-cataloged, and Köchel has been abandoned. Have you yet seen even an example of an NMA (Neue Mozart Ausgabe) number? I think music people, like many other disciplines, are too conservative to change. It seems that we can't even take works which have been verified (not just deest, but...) like Hob 02_G1 Divertimento in G for Strings & Winds, which is unquestionably verified as being by Haydn, and give it a permanent number. Or even Hob 02:6 Divertimento in Eb for Strings (Op 1 #5 Op 0), which was misnamed by Hoboken, and which is unquestionably a String Quartet by Haydn. Why can't someone take the initiative to give it the abandoned number Hob 03:05 which is exactly the number it should have anyway.

Or, why am I not in charge? ???

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 21, 2018, 02:32:19 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 21, 2018, 02:29:57 PM
Well, Hoboken is dead, of course, and it seems like no one has the fur to tackle it. Let me ask you though: Mozart's works all just got totally re-cataloged, and Köchel has been abandoned. Have you yet seen even an example of an NMA (Neue Mozart Ausgabe) number? I think music people, like many other disciplines, are too conservative to change. It seems that we can't even take works which have been verified (not just deest, but...) like Hob 02_G1 Divertimento in G for Strings & Winds, which is unquestionably verified as being by Haydn, and give it a permanent number. Or even Hob 02:6 Divertimento in Eb for Strings (Op 1 #5 Op 0), which was misnamed by Hoboken, and which is unquestionably a String Quartet by Haydn. Why can't someone take the initiative to give it the abandoned number Hob 03:05 which is exactly the number it should have anyway.

Or, why am I not in charge? ???

8)

Perhaps, you are still in training.

When you can snatch the pebble from my hand....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 21, 2018, 03:37:15 PM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 21, 2018, 02:32:19 PM
Perhaps, you are still in training.

When you can snatch the pebble from my hand....

I don't know, Master, I'm gettin' pretty old... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on January 21, 2018, 04:37:23 PM

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91NO0Ekk4lL._SL1500_.jpg)

HAYDN An imaginary orchestral journey – featuring excerpts from Symphonies Nos 6, 45, 46, 60, 64, 90 and 101; 'The Creation', 'The Seasons', 'The Desert Island' and 'The Seven Last Words of Christ on the Cross'

Releasing soon. Perhaps this is a bit of bleeding-chunks from Haydn's works, but the sample sound nice, and I'm interested to see, and hear, how Rattle pieces these movements together.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 21, 2018, 04:57:16 PM

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 21, 2018, 05:18:24 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 21, 2018, 02:29:57 PM
Well, Hoboken is dead, of course, and it seems like no one has the fur to tackle it. Let me ask you though: Mozart's works all just got totally re-cataloged, and Köchel has been abandoned. Have you yet seen even an example of an NMA (Neue Mozart Ausgabe) number? I think music people, like many other disciplines, are too conservative to change. It seems that we can't even take works which have been verified (not just deest, but...) like Hob 02_G1 Divertimento in G for Strings & Winds, which is unquestionably verified as being by Haydn, and give it a permanent number. Or even Hob 02:6 Divertimento in Eb for Strings (Op 1 #5 Op 0), which was misnamed by Hoboken, and which is unquestionably a String Quartet by Haydn. Why can't someone take the initiative to give it the abandoned number Hob 03:05 which is exactly the number it should have anyway.

Or, why am I not in charge? ???

8)

Seems to me you have enough chops to do the job!
Who knows, perhaps in years to come they'll talk about GurnVerzeichnis numbers!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on January 21, 2018, 05:20:18 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 21, 2018, 04:57:16 PM
1797 was a momentous year for Austria, thus for Haydn. For music lovers, it was the year of the Opus 76 quartets and the Austrian National Anthem. But the major character of the drama of that year wasn't a musician...

Now it's on! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2018/01/1797-the-year-part-1-.html)

Thanks,
8)

For moment I thought I was in a time loop...
(Yes, I know you didn't want it to get lost.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 21, 2018, 05:22:40 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 21, 2018, 05:18:24 PM
Seems to me you have enough chops to do the job!
Who knows, perhaps in years to come they'll talk about GurnVerzeichnis numbers!

Well, I can always wish. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 21, 2018, 05:24:20 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on January 21, 2018, 05:20:18 PM
For moment I thought I was in a time loop...
(Yes, I know you didn't want it to get lost.)

:D It's like déjà vu all over again... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on January 21, 2018, 11:27:48 PM

This seems fairly obvious: Of course you do not re-assign numbers because this would result in a lot of confusion when using older sources when a different piece had the number.
So Hoboken stays, or even Koechel (despite some efforts) and you get a new additional number in brackets. The current Haydn edition did some re-distribution, e.g. separating the early string divertimenti from the quartets (op.9 and later).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 22, 2018, 01:02:10 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on January 21, 2018, 11:27:48 PM
This seems fairly obvious: Of course you do not re-assign numbers because this would result in a lot of confusion when using older sources when a different piece had the number.

Witness the Mozart catalogue.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The One on January 22, 2018, 02:55:03 AM

OK, haus keeper. Whom do you prefer when it comes to keyboard solo and with orchestra? The less tinny the sound the better ::)

Or you can start with your favorite non-symphonic works of him.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2018, 04:35:55 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on January 21, 2018, 11:27:48 PM
This seems fairly obvious: Of course you do not re-assign numbers because this would result in a lot of confusion when using older sources when a different piece had the number.
So Hoboken stays, or even Koechel (despite some efforts) and you get a new additional number in brackets. The current Haydn edition did some re-distribution, e.g. separating the early string divertimenti from the quartets (op.9 and later).

In principle I agree with you but in practice, changing Hob 2:6 to 3:5 would confuse, perhaps, 3 people. They would learn to adapt. Of course you wouldn't do it wholesale.

As it is now, many Köchel numbers are 3 or more deep, some of them with an Anhang tag added in. Who wants to deal with that stuff? As it is, 90% of people, including nearly all CD publishers, still use KV1 numbers if they ever existed (they often didn't because the work had never been assigned one before). The NMA numbers may be brilliantly conceived, but are doomed to failure, I'm afraid.

Really, the fact of the matter is that the only people who use anything other than opus numbers (which are essentially irrelevant before the 19th century) or "symphony #24" numbers is a tiny fraction of all people who have anything to do with the music. I would suppose that any of those who had a modicum of intelligence would welcome someone to come in and straighten out the mess that has accumulated over the years, sometimes even because it was messed up to begin with (common in Hoboken). I certainly wish someone would fix up the Haydn numbers!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2018, 04:37:16 AM

Quote from: The One on January 22, 2018, 02:55:03 AM
OK, haus keeper. Whom do you prefer when it comes to keyboard solo and with orchestra? The less tinny the sound the better ::)

Or you can start with your favorite non-symphonic works of him.

You want Brautigam for both the concertos and the sonatas. I'm all about tinny, I like Schornsheim. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 22, 2018, 04:38:17 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2018, 04:37:16 AM
You want Brautigam for both the concertos and the sonatas. I'm all about tinny, I like Schornsheim. :)

8)

Please, sieur: we say jangly, hereabouts 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on January 22, 2018, 05:33:23 AM

I don't think one can avoid that if a catalogue has had some prominence and was widely known(Koechel far more so than Hoboken) then the numbers will stick. It is still good to have a better reference system for musicologists but hardly anyone will bother to learn 417b (or whatever) instead of 421 and while "d minor quartet" is not unique, almost always this is the piece that one refers to).

Hoboken was a mess from the beginning because it did already collide with other common numberings (opus in the quartets and others in the piano sonatas). So you are right that there would not be such a problem in changing numbers of the Hoboken. But it would still tend to add confusion. Even as it is is now I have talked past people because we were using different numbers for a Haydn piano sonata.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The One on January 22, 2018, 05:54:08 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2018, 04:37:16 AM
You want Brautigam for both the concertos and the sonatas. I'm all about tinny, I like Schornsheim. :)

8)

I have the concertos. So you want me to buy this? (I have tried giving link to presto via the thumbnail)

(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/images/records/bisbiscd173133.jpg?1285153950) (https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/7976414--haydn-complete-solo-keyboard-music)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2018, 06:01:53 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on January 22, 2018, 05:33:23 AM
I don't think one can avoid that if a catalogue has had some prominence and was widely known(Koechel far more so than Hoboken) then the numbers will stick. It is still good to have a better reference system for musicologists but hardly anyone will bother to learn 417b (or whatever) instead of 421 and while "d minor quartet" is not unique, almost always this is the piece that one refers to).

Hoboken was a mess from the beginning because it did already collide with other common numberings (opus in the quartets and others in the piano sonatas). So you are right that there would not be such a problem in changing numbers of the Hoboken. But it would still tend to add confusion. Even as it is is now I have talked past people because we were using different numbers for a Haydn piano sonata.

I have watched discussions on this topic many times over the years, and still haven't convinced anyone that Biamonti is the only reasonable Beethoven numbering... :D Mostly it is people getting confused because they simply didn't see a need to make an investment of time and learning effort until there actually WAS a need, and then trying to catch up.

The keyboard sonatas (and trios) are yet another fine example of confusion, which I have addressed a blog page to, and it is one of the most heavily used references on my site. I think Landon numbers are a wonderful thing, and as nearly as I can tell, most pianists learn them from the beginning (because sheet music publishers use them), but most other people don't. Honestly, I still use Hoboken numbers for them, even though I am intimately familiar with all of the alternatives. I have assembled concordances of nearly all of the competing systems, and of course the one and only constant is Hoboken. Which is why I am all about just fixing it instead of writing yet another competitor, no matter that it would be far superior. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2018, 06:03:13 AM

Quote from: The One on January 22, 2018, 05:54:08 AM
I have the concertos. So you want me to buy this? (I have tried giving link to presto via the thumbnail)

(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/images/records/bisbiscd173133.jpg?1285153950) (https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/7976414--haydn-complete-solo-keyboard-music)

I think it is an excellent box, Brautigam is a top shelf player and the instrument he uses is one of the finest sounding fortepianos I have heard. So, I guess, yeah. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The One on January 22, 2018, 06:04:59 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2018, 06:03:13 AM
I think it is an excellent box, Brautigam is a top shelf player and the instrument he uses is one of the finest sounding fortepianos I have heard. So, I guess, yeah. :)

8)

OK! This is gonna be my second set after Mccabe. What else?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2018, 06:05:15 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 22, 2018, 04:38:17 AM
Please, sieur: we say jangly, hereabouts 8)

Yes, that is far more accurate. A jangle here and there bothers me not a whit. One of my favorite fortepianists (Khouri) is just a jangling fool! :D :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2018, 06:14:49 AM

Quote from: The One on January 22, 2018, 06:04:59 AM
OK! What else?

Keyboard Trios - Trio 1790. Far and away the finest set of these works. Individual performances by others may be better (in someone's opinion), but as a set, you can't do better.

Cello concertos - Suzuki with Kuijken on DHM or Bylsma with Tafelmusik.

Trumpet Concerto - Best one is Perkins with King's Consort, but for all-Haydn, either Pinnock or Hogwood is also excellent.

String Quartets - Festetics. You can almost build a nice set with a combination of London Haydn Quartet & Mosaiques, but you will still lack Op 71/74, and also all the joie de vivre that Festetics bring.

I would also look for the 2 BIS boxes by Manfred Huss, 'Music for the King of Naples" and "Early Divertimentos".

And I would get the recently released symphonies box by Hogwood/Brüggen/Dantone.

If you had all that, you would have a solid backbone for a superb Haydn collection. You could even not duplicate anything and get a few more disks and have a matchless collection. Well, I could match it, but most can't. :D :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: king ubu on January 22, 2018, 06:36:47 AM

I've not made my way through either the Schornsheim or the Brautigam boxes in their entirey yet, but I guess the later is more accessible indeed. Still in the process of getting used to Schornsheim's playing, I assume ;)

Regarding concertos, I enjoy this set quite some:

[asin]B018UZN9AO[/asin]
(you'll find a backcover scan there with details)

And for sonatas, also this disc by Marcia Hadjimarkos (her Mozart disc on Avie is nice too):

[asin]B000EQHTBS[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2018, 06:41:09 AM

Quote from: king ubu on January 22, 2018, 06:36:47 AM
I've not made my way through either the Schornsheim or the Brautigam boxes in their entirey yet, but I guess the later is more accessible indeed. Still in the process of getting used to Schornsheim's playing, I assume ;)

Regarding concertos, I enjoy this set quite some:

[asin]B018UZN9AO[/asin]
(you'll find a backcover scan there with details)

And for sonatas, also this disc by Marcia Hadjimarkos (her Mozart disc on Avie is nice too):

[asin]B000EQHTBS[/asin]

Both of those disks get the Gurn Seal of Approval^©. Hadjimarkos plays a mean clavichord, it would be a great introduction for someone who wants to hear what one sounds like. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: king ubu on January 22, 2018, 06:53:32 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2018, 06:41:09 AM
Both of those disks get the Gurn Seal of Approval^©.

Phew, relieved to hear that ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The One on January 22, 2018, 06:58:46 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2018, 06:14:49 AM
Keyboard Trios - Trio 1790. Far and away the finest set of these works. Individual performances by others may be better (in someone's opinion), but as a set, you can't do better.

Cello concertos - Suzuki with Kuijken on DHM or Bylsma with Tafelmusik.

Trumpet Concerto - Best one is Perkins with King's Consort, but for all-Haydn, either Pinnock or Hogwood is also excellent.

String Quartets - Festetics. You can almost build a nice set with a combination of London Haydn Quartet & Mosaiques, but you will still lack Op 71/74, and also all the joie de vivre that Festetics bring.

I would also look for the 2 BIS boxes by Manfred Huss, 'Music for the King of Naples" and "Early Divertimentos".

And I would get the recently released symphonies box by Hogwood/Brüggen/Dantone.

If you had all that, you would have a solid backbone for a superb Haydn collection. You could even not duplicate anything and get a few more disks and have a matchless collection. Well, I could match it, but most can't. :D :D

8)

Yes, I really like this kind of tidy compilations from tycoons

Keyboard Trios - Trio 1790.
I have BAT, Levin/Beths/Bylsma, Cohen/Hobart/Coin and ABEGG here. I'll look for a deal after this post (I listen to only 10 of them, I wonder if it will cost me the whole box :) )
(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_1080/MI0003/299/MI0003299917.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Cello concertos - Suzuki with Kuijken on DHM or Bylsma with Tafelmusik.
I have so many here, including them. I like Comberti
(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_1080/MI0002/846/MI0002846156.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Trumpet Concerto - Best one is Perkins with King's Consort, but for all-Haydn, either Pinnock or Hogwood is also excellent.
I only have Hardenberger and Marsalis but then again I don't listen to it much. I'll try to add Steele-Perkins. Thanks
(http://prius.way-nifty.com/photos/uncategorized/2013/11/19/hummel_steeleperkins.jpeg)
String Quartets - Festetics. You can almost build a nice set with a combination of London Haydn Quartet & Mosaiques, but you will still lack Op 71/74, and also all the joie de vivre that Festetics bring.
I listen to 13 of the quartets and I have them all in PI, too. Festetics set is one of the best of my whole classical music collection. In addition to Festetics, Mosaiques and LHQ, I prefer The Lindsays and Kodaly
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61v0sARux9L.jpg)

I would also look for the 2 BIS boxes by Manfred Huss, 'Music for the King of Naples" and "Early Divertimentos".
This kind of recommendation is what I yearn for.
(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/196/MI0001196889.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_1080/MI0003/147/MI0003147950.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

And I would get the recently released symphonies box by Hogwood/Brüggen/Dantone.
I already have it. I have the sets I mentioned before, plus I have the Davis and Jochum for London symphonies and some mixture of Szell(92, 94 and 96), Harnoncourt and Mackerras (100), Abbado and Goodman(101) and Hickox (103 and 104)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61Pud4WxtiL._SL1200_.jpg)

What about violin concertos, Sinfonia Concertante(105), Flute Trios(London), The Creation and Arianna a Naxos?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The One on January 22, 2018, 07:25:18 AM

Quote from: king ubu on January 22, 2018, 06:53:32 AM
Phew, relieved to hear that ;D

You've costed me :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2018, 07:43:56 AM

Quote from: The One on January 22, 2018, 06:58:46 AM
Yes, I really like this kind of tidy compilations from tycoons

What about violin concertos, Sinfonia Concertante(105), Flute Trios(London), The Creation and Arianna a Naxos?

Just to say that I spent years collecting these things, if I tried to buy them all at once I would have to mortgage my dog... :)

You said you had the Carmignola VC's, let me look when I get home, I have a bunch of them (I like Standage, for example, but probably not more than Carmignola). I'll get back on that one.

Flute trios have several competitors also. The nicest one, IMO, is the Kuijken brothers. The Sans Souci on CPO are very fine also. Now, if you mean the Flute & Keyboard trios, as opposed to the 2 flutes and cello trios, then also on CPO there is a disk by Camerata Köln that is hard to beat, although dozens try. Patrick Cohen and the Mosaiques guys do a nice job too.

The Creation in English is McCreesh. In German, I think I have all the PI ones, and I have to say the Spering on Naxos pleases me as much as any. Harnoncourt is no slouch either.

For the Masses, the Rebel Baroque on Naxos is the best choice, although there is a lot of good competition here.

For Arianna a Naxos I have easily a dozen and a half, but Andrea Folan with Tom Beghin on Bridge, or better yet the double CD with all 24 of the German Lieder (on Alpha?) is hard to beat.

This doesn't even scratch the surface of the Scottish Songs, or the Baryton Trios or the String Trios or.... :)

8)

Sinfonia concertante: let me look this one up too, I like Angerer (Gramola?) for example, but have a bunch of them. Petite Bande is nice...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2018, 08:20:32 AM

Quote from: San Antone on January 22, 2018, 08:00:44 AM
Are you off Beghin now?

Nope. I was recc'ing for him, not me. I love the harpsichord and clavichord in the early works, and Brautigam is fortepiano all the way through. I didn't want to rec anything 'tinny'. :D :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2018, 09:02:43 AM

Quote from: San Antone on January 22, 2018, 08:22:34 AM

I always figured you for a tin ear. ;D

Hell, you may be right about that. I do gots rhythm though.... ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2018, 09:04:13 AM

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The One on January 22, 2018, 09:44:32 AM

Quote from: San Antone on January 22, 2018, 06:32:05 AM
That one is good but this one was all the rave around here a few years ago:

Tom Beghin

Thank you but I specifically mentioned avoiding tins :). I listen to clavichord but I can't stand a few specific early fortepianos. I can list their models if need be ;)

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2018, 08:20:32 AM
I didn't want to rec anything 'tinny'.

Thanks

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: bwv 1080 on January 22, 2018, 09:53:55 AM

Does anyone have a good FP rec for the piano concertos?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2018, 10:51:01 AM

Quote from: bwv 1080 on January 22, 2018, 09:53:55 AM
Does anyone have a good FP rec for the piano concertos?

Like with the solo keyboard, Brautigam is hard to beat.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Turner on January 22, 2018, 11:37:24 AM

Andsnes/EMI is good if one prefers a modern piano like me - livelier than for example Ax, IMO. I´ve got Brautigam too, and he plays well.

https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/7951238--haydn-keyboard-concertos-no-3-4-and-11#tracklist
https://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/classical/products/7935389--haydn-keyboard-concertos

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The One on January 22, 2018, 01:23:38 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2018, 07:43:56 AM
Just to say that I spent years collecting these things, if I tried to buy them all at once I would have to mortgage my dog... :)

You said you had the Carmignola VC's, let me look when I get home, I have a bunch of them (I like Standage, for example, but probably not more than Carmignola). I'll get back on that one.

Flute trios have several competitors also. The nicest one, IMO, is the Kuijken brothers. The Sans Souci on CPO are very fine also. Now, if you mean the Flute & Keyboard trios, as opposed to the 2 flutes and cello trios, then also on CPO there is a disk by Camerata Köln that is hard to beat, although dozens try. Patrick Cohen and the Mosaiques guys do a nice job too.

The Creation in English is McCreesh. In German, I think I have all the PI ones, and I have to say the Spering on Naxos pleases me as much as any. Harnoncourt is no slouch either.

For the Masses, the Rebel Baroque on Naxos is the best choice, although there is a lot of good competition here.

For Arianna a Naxos I have easily a dozen and a half, but Andrea Folan with Tom Beghin on Bridge, or better yet the double CD with all 24 of the German Lieder (on Alpha?) is hard to beat.

This doesn't even scratch the surface of the Scottish Songs, or the Baryton Trios or the String Trios or.... :)

8)

Sinfonia concertante: let me look this one up too, I like Angerer (Gramola?) for example, but have a bunch of them. Petite Bande is nice...

I'll act on this one after you complete it. I don't cover H5, H11 and H31. I've tried hard for baryton trios once but... I'd love to see if you have any special discs for H5 though.
Thanks a lot for an active and very enjoyable day you begot.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2018, 04:29:03 PM

Quote from: The One on January 22, 2018, 01:23:38 PM
I'll act on this one after you complete it. I don't cover H5, H11 and H31. I've tried hard for baryton trios once but... I'd love to see if you have any special discs for H5 though.
Thanks a lot for an active and very enjoyable day you begot.

Violin concertos;
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/dgOOOo.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/aeDCA2.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/xpODFQ.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/OE7l4V.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/NHNtC7.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/Zgz38A.jpg)

So this is what I have. Some of them only have #1 & 4, the rest have 1, 3 & 4. In some cases, the filler work is pretty fine, for example, the Podger has my favorite Mozart Sinfonia concertante, and the Wallfisch has one of my favorite Haydn Sinfonia concertante. Midori Seiler is excellent. So is Carmignola and Guglielmo. Frankly, there isn't a loser in the bunch, but the Wallfisch does kill 2 birds by giving a fine SC, although you lose the Concerto in A. Your call, I guess. You can always use Carmignola's #3 and then not worry about it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2018, 04:48:25 PM

Quote from: The One on January 22, 2018, 01:23:38 PM
I'll act on this one after you complete it. I don't cover H5, H11 and H31. I've tried hard for baryton trios once but... I'd love to see if you have any special discs for H5 though.
Thanks a lot for an active and very enjoyable day you begot.

Gotta say, try this Baryton Trios; if you don't like it, then give up on them for a few years. They are an acquired taste, maybe they need to sit for a while! :)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/7rRXb3.jpg)

For the String Trios, choices are thin on the ground. Camerata Berolinensis began a series a few years ago but only got these 2 disks completed. They are well worth the effort to dig up. Haydn didn't write string trios because he couldn't write quartets yet, he wrote them because he was inspired to do so and was damned good at it. :)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/tkLRpf.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/h5E0u3.jpg)

Here is an outstanding disk of songs, some of the canzonettas and Scottish Songs done as they would have been in a salon. Also, this is the disk of German Lieder I was telling you about with Arianna a Naxos and the 24 German songs.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/ivuq0C.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/hSXaHC.jpg)

Finally, the Sinfonia concertante. Well, there is the Wallfisch above. And I really do like this one, the sound of the solo instruments is really quite special (although a modern oboist would probably go 'yeewww'). Screw a modern oboist anyway. :D

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/CJZsbH.jpg)

There are others in this vein, but this will do for a start. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The One on January 23, 2018, 06:20:35 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2018, 07:43:56 AM
Now, if you mean the Flute & Keyboard trios, as opposed to the 2 flutes and cello trios...

London are H.IV/1-4. I was asking for H.IV/1-4

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 23, 2018, 06:55:55 AM

Quote from: The One on January 23, 2018, 06:20:35 AM
London are H.IV/1-4. I was asking for H.IV/1-4

Well, I'm happy with Sans Souci on CPO, but I especially like the Kuijken's. There really are lots of choices though, like the Ensemble Agora, and the Schönbrunn Ensemble. If you can find the Kuijken disk on Accent which has been re-released, this is the older cover though:

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/922/GZUegj.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The One on January 23, 2018, 06:59:48 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 23, 2018, 06:55:55 AM
Well, I'm happy with Sans Souci on CPO, but I especially like the Kuijken's. There really are lots of choices though, like the Ensemble Agora, and the Schönbrunn Ensemble. If you can find the Kuijken disk on Accent which has been re-released, this is the older cover though:

I have that Kuijken and at least a couple more but could you point me to Sans Souci on H 6 /1-4?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: king ubu on January 23, 2018, 07:04:10 AM

(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/017/MI0001017762.jpg)(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_1080/MI0004/056/MI0004056541.jpg)

Regarding the violin concertos, there's also a disc by Isabelle Faust (original (?) cover and recent reissue cover above) ... would have to relisten but these concertos have so far not made all that much of an impression (I know one of them is on the mixed concertos set I recommended above, I guess that would then be my favourite Haydn VC up to now).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 23, 2018, 07:04:50 AM

Quote from: The One on January 23, 2018, 06:59:48 AM
I have that Kuijken and at least a couple more but could you point me to Sans Souci on H 6 /1-4?

I retract that, they don't do 1-4, they do 6-11. My confusion. This may also apply to some others. I mostly listen to the Kuijken's and so I get them mixed up sometimes... :-\

8)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/923/zFNgFZ.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The One on January 23, 2018, 07:08:37 AM

Quote from: king ubu on January 23, 2018, 07:04:10 AM
(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0001/017/MI0001017762.jpg)(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_1080/MI0004/056/MI0004056541.jpg)

Regarding the violin concertos, there's also a disc by Isabelle Faust (original (?) cover and recent reissue cover above) ... would have to relisten but these concertos have so far not made all that much of an impression (I know one of them is on the mixed concertos set I recommended above, I guess that would then be my favourite Haydn VC up to now).

I've been circling in between Accardo, Carmignola and Standage for a quite while. Faust is not good in Haydn

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The One on January 23, 2018, 07:12:38 AM

There was a very good Kantorow somewhere buy I just can't find it to re-listen

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The One on January 23, 2018, 07:47:30 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2018, 07:43:56 AM
Just to say that I spent years collecting these things, if I tried to buy them all at once I would have to mortgage my dog... :)

You said you had the Carmignola VC's, let me look when I get home, I have a bunch of them (I like Standage, for example, but probably not more than Carmignola). I'll get back on that one.

Flute trios have several competitors also. The nicest one, IMO, is the Kuijken brothers. The Sans Souci on CPO are very fine also. Now, if you mean the Flute & Keyboard trios, as opposed to the 2 flutes and cello trios, then also on CPO there is a disk by Camerata Köln that is hard to beat, although dozens try. Patrick Cohen and the Mosaiques guys do a nice job too.

The Creation in English is McCreesh. In German, I think I have all the PI ones, and I have to say the Spering on Naxos pleases me as much as any. Harnoncourt is no slouch either.

For the Masses, the Rebel Baroque on Naxos is the best choice, although there is a lot of good competition here.

For Arianna a Naxos I have easily a dozen and a half, but Andrea Folan with Tom Beghin on Bridge, or better yet the double CD with all 24 of the German Lieder (on Alpha?) is hard to beat.

This doesn't even scratch the surface of the Scottish Songs, or the Baryton Trios or the String Trios or.... :)

8)

Sinfonia concertante: let me look this one up too, I like Angerer (Gramola?) for example, but have a bunch of them. Petite Bande is nice...

Flute trios have several competitors also. The nicest one, IMO, is the Kuijken brothers. The Sans Souci on CPO are very fine also. Now, if you mean the Flute & Keyboard trios, as opposed to the 2 flutes and cello trios, then also on CPO there is a disk by Camerata Köln that is hard to beat, although dozens try. Patrick Cohen and the Mosaiques guys do a nice job too.
Kuijken and Rampal sets are my favorite here. So no need for a new purchase. I'll get Sans Souci for H4/6-11. I have all Camerata Koln and Cohen/Hobart and QM.

The Creation in English is McCreesh. In German, I think I have all the PI ones, and I have to say the Spering on Naxos pleases me as much as any. Harnoncourt is no slouch either.
I keep Rattle, McCreesh, Willcocks and Karajan. I've ordered Spering. I know the Harnoncourt and I don't need that. Thanks

For the Masses, the Rebel Baroque on Naxos is the best choice, although there is a lot of good competition here.
I do not listen to them.

For Arianna a Naxos I have easily a dozen and a half, but Andrea Folan with Tom Beghin on Bridge, or better yet the double CD with all 24 of the German Lieder (on Alpha?) is hard to beat.
What is Beghin's instrument?

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2018, 04:29:03 PM

So this is what I have. Some of them only have #1 & 4, the rest have 1, 3 & 4. In some cases, the filler work is pretty fine, for example, the Podger has my favorite Mozart Sinfonia concertante, and the Wallfisch has one of my favorite Haydn Sinfonia concertante. Midori Seiler is excellent. So is Carmignola and Guglielmo. Frankly, there isn't a loser in the bunch, but the Wallfisch does kill 2 birds by giving a fine SC, although you lose the Concerto in A. Your call, I guess. You can always use Carmignola's #3 and then not worry about it. :)

8)

The only missing ones here are Midori and Wallfisch and they are ordered. Thanks. I wouldn't even think of Midori in Haydn. I'm looking forward to listening to both of them

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 22, 2018, 04:48:25 PM
Gotta say, try this Baryton Trios; if you don't like it, then give up on them for a few years. They are an acquired taste, maybe they need to sit for a while! :)

For the String Trios, choices are thin on the ground. Camerata Berolinensis began a series a few years ago but only got these 2 disks completed. They are well worth the effort to dig up. Haydn didn't write string trios because he couldn't write quartets yet, he wrote them because he was inspired to do so and was damned good at it. :)

Here is an outstanding disk of songs, some of the canzonettas and Scottish Songs done as they would have been in a salon. Also, this is the disk of German Lieder I was telling you about with Arianna a Naxos and the 24 German songs.

Finally, the Sinfonia concertante. Well, there is the Wallfisch above. And I really do like this one, the sound of the solo instruments is really quite special (although a modern oboist would probably go 'yeewww'). Screw a modern oboist anyway. :D

There are others in this vein, but this will do for a start. :)

8)

Gotta say, try this Baryton Trios; if you don't like it, then give up on them for a few years. They are an acquired taste, maybe they need to sit for a while! :)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/7rRXb3.jpg)

I've tried two sets for a while, Esterhazy and Lukacs, but no, I'll stay out of these.

For the String Trios, choices are thin on the ground. Camerata Berolinensis began a series a few years ago but only got these 2 disks completed. They are well worth the effort to dig up. Haydn didn't write string trios because he couldn't write quartets yet, he wrote them because he was inspired to do so and was damned good at it. :)

Here is an outstanding disk of songs, some of the canzonettas and Scottish Songs done as they would have been in a salon. Also, this is the disk of German Lieder I was telling you about with Arianna a Naxos and the 24 German songs.
Not in my repertoire but I'll get the Beghin if the fp is proper :D

Finally, the Sinfonia concertante. Well, there is the Wallfisch above. And I really do like this one, the sound of the solo instruments is really quite special (although a modern oboist would probably go 'yeewww'). Screw a modern oboist anyway. :D

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/xq90/924/CJZsbH.jpg)

Price hunting for this now, thanks

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Baron Scarpia on January 23, 2018, 07:48:25 AM

Quote from: San Antone on January 23, 2018, 07:10:44 AM
Pronouncements such as this make me smile. ;D

You'll smile a lot if you read this site regularly. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 23, 2018, 09:37:32 AM

Quote from: The One on January 23, 2018, 07:47:30 AM

What is Beghin's instrument?

The only missing ones here are Midori and Wallfisch and they are ordered. Thanks. I wouldn't even think of Midori in Haydn. I'm looking forward to listening to both of them

Price hunting for this now, thanks

Beghin is probably the most meticulous keyboardist out there. He will use exactly the right keyboard for a particular piece, and if it doesn't exist he will have one made (his Complete Keyboard Works on a Blu-Ray disk on Naxos is pretty amazing).

Just a note in case you and I aren't right in tune: Midori Seiler (bio here) (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/Seiler-Midori.htm) is NOT Midori (bio) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midori_(violinist)), she is only a Baroque violinist AFAIK. Very good too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The One on January 23, 2018, 09:48:51 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 23, 2018, 09:37:32 AM
Just a note in case you and I aren't right in tune: Midori Seiler (bio here) (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/Seiler-Midori.htm) is NOT Midori (bio) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midori_(violinist)), she is only a Baroque violinist AFAIK. Very good too. :)

Yes!! I have realized it from the cover while ordering it. I'm not responsible for anything I do or say today :-[

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 23, 2018, 09:49:15 AM

Quote from: Baron Scarpia on January 23, 2018, 07:48:25 AM
You'll smile a lot if you read this site regularly. :)

I'll go further: if you aren't smiling while reading GMG, ain't nobody's fault but yer own.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on January 23, 2018, 09:52:26 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 23, 2018, 09:37:32 AM
Just a note in case you and I aren't right in tune: Midori Seiler (bio here) (http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Bio/Seiler-Midori.htm) is NOT Midori (bio) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midori_(violinist)), she is only a Baroque violinist AFAIK. Very good too. :)

8)

And a Classical/Early Romantic era violinist, surely - Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn, Schubert, Mendelssohn are big parts of her repertoire.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The One on January 23, 2018, 09:57:29 AM

Quote from: North Star on January 23, 2018, 09:52:26 AM
And a Classical/Early Romantic era violinist, surely - Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn, Schubert, Mendelssohn are big parts of her repertoire.

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/albumList.jsp?name_id1=44941&name_role1=2&bcorder=2
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/albumList.jsp?name_id1=243100&name_role1=2&bcorder=2

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 23, 2018, 10:26:30 AM

Quote from: North Star on January 23, 2018, 09:52:26 AM
And a Classical/Early Romantic era violinist, surely - Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn, Schubert, Mendelssohn are big parts of her repertoire.

Yes, but 'Baroque Violinist' is, like, a job description rather than a limit on her repertoire. For example, Rachel Podger is also a Professor of Baroque Violin in London. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on January 23, 2018, 10:51:10 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 23, 2018, 10:26:30 AM
Yes, but 'Baroque Violinist' is, like, a job description rather than a limit on her repertoire. For example, Rachel Podger is also a Professor of Baroque Violin in London. :)

8)

Fair enough. ;)

Quote from: The One on January 23, 2018, 09:57:29 AM
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/albumList.jsp?name_id1=44941&name_role1=2&bcorder=2
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/albumList.jsp?name_id1=243100&name_role1=2&bcorder=2

Yep. That 4 Seasons is delightful, too. She's also the concertmaster in e.g. Immerseel's Beethoven symphonies.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The One on January 23, 2018, 11:30:09 AM

Quote from: North Star on January 23, 2018, 10:51:10 AM
She's also the concertmaster in e.g. Immerseel's Beethoven symphonies.

Good information

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 21, 2018, 05:32:36 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 23, 2018, 10:26:30 AM
Yes, but 'Baroque Violinist' is, like, a job description rather than a limit on her repertoire. For example, Rachel Podger is also a Professor of Baroque Violin in London. :)

8)

It's an interesting idea. If we talk about the HIP field, almost every violinist started as a Baroque violinist, except those coming from a mainstream training (as Viktoria Mullova, for instance).

Keyboardists are a different story because the instruments themselves mark clearly a limit between Baroque and Classical Era.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 21, 2018, 05:49:33 PM

Quote from: Gordo on February 21, 2018, 05:32:36 PM
It's an interesting idea. If we talk about the HIP field, almost every violinist started as a Baroque violinist, except those coming from a mainstream training (as Viktoria Mullova, for instance).

Keyboardists are a different story because the instruments themselves mark clearly a limit between Baroque and Classical Era.

True. I wonder, other than Badura-Skoda, how many Baroque/Classic keyboardists began life as successful modern players and then had to relearn everything when they switched over to period keyboards. When I say 'relearn', I am also including, besides authentic ornaments etc, the different expressive capabilities and also the expectations for things like repeats. All the wonderful expressions which modern keyboard players use were really developed in the 19th and 20th centuries, thus they are not authentic. Somewhere (here?) we discussed the idea of Beghin, for example, sounding 'academic' because he eschewed many of these devices which didn't actually exist yet in the time the music was written.

I guess what I am asking, is does anyone think it easier to learn something like period keyboard style if one doesn't have to UN-learn modern style first?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on February 21, 2018, 06:00:20 PM

Are there really any performers who did not start as modern instrument players? Perhaps they switched during conservatory years, but how many kids ever came home and said, "Mom, I want to play the harpsichord/viola da gamba!"

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 21, 2018, 07:10:29 PM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 21, 2018, 06:00:20 PM
Are there really any performers who did not start as modern instrument players? Perhaps they switched during conservatory years, but how many kids ever came home and said, "Mom, I want to play the harpsichord/viola da gamba!"

One example is Bart van Oort, who studied period keyboards in college (Cornell) under Bilson. Another is Tom Beghin. But I was actually talking about someone who has had a successful career as a modern pianist and then switched over. You are probably right that someone's first touch of a piano key was on a modern piano, hard to be otherwise. But Badura-Skoda was hugely successful before he ever touched a fortepiano. Ingrid Haebler is another of those. Bilson? IDK. The other one that comes to mind is Schiff, who moves back and forth. He is still known as a modern pianist, but he does very well on fortepiano, even adopting the idiom.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Baron Scarpia on February 21, 2018, 09:53:02 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 21, 2018, 07:10:29 PMThe other one that comes to mind is Schiff, who moves back and forth. He is still known as a modern pianist, but he does very well on fortepiano, even adopting the idiom.

...also Brautigam.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: amw on February 21, 2018, 11:39:48 PM

I think you have to learn performance style all over again with each new piece, because you can't perform any two pieces in the exact same way, and certainly you can't perform the music of different time periods in exactly the same way (even on a modern instrument).

Other successful modern keyboard players who also developed a HIP style would include Alexei Lubimov & Peter Serkin.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2018, 05:07:15 AM

Quote from: amw on February 21, 2018, 11:39:48 PM
I think you have to learn performance style all over again with each new piece, because you can't perform any two pieces in the exact same way, and certainly you can't perform the music of different time periods in exactly the same way (even on a modern instrument).

Other successful modern keyboard players who also developed a HIP style would include Alexei Lubimov & Peter Serkin.

Quote from: Baron Scarpia on February 21, 2018, 09:53:02 PM
...also Brautigam.

Yes, I agree with that, performing the music of different periods in the same style is something that has always bothered me. You hear it in all sorts of instrumental combinations including full orchestra. This is exactly what sent me over the HIP cliff 25 years ago!

I didn't know Lubimov as a modern pianist, nor do I really know Serkin as a PI player. I'll have to see what I can find by him.

Yes, Brautigam too. IIRC, I have a Mendelssohn concertos disk by him on modern piano (??).

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 22, 2018, 05:16:07 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2018, 05:07:15 AM
Yes, Brautigam too. IIRC, I have a Mendelssohn concertos disk by him on modern piano (??).

He recorded the complete Songs without Words on a 2010 Paul McNulty copy of a 1830 Pleyel

(http://bis.se/shop/17115/art15/h3355/4703355-origpic-0abb10.jpg) (https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0004/066/MI0004066788.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

and Rachmaninoff's complete preludes on a presumably modern piano (no details are offered in the booklet)

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/4bIAAOSwB4NWyzs3/s-l300.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2018, 05:38:21 AM

Those SWW's look interesting. This is the one I was talking about though, they are careful to always call it a piano, no forte involved anywhere. It is a Fazioli, which I know nothing about.

[asin]B000027DXW[/asin]

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 22, 2018, 05:43:45 AM

That looks quite interesting, actually.

Go figure, Brautigam also recorded Schnittke and Shostakovich. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 22, 2018, 05:47:22 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 22, 2018, 05:43:45 AM
That looks quite interesting, actually.

Go figure, Brautigam also recorded Schittke and Shostakovich. :)

Ouch! Please: Schnittke, Schnittke.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 22, 2018, 05:50:49 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 22, 2018, 05:47:22 AM
Ouch! Please: Schnittke, Schnittke.

Typo, Karl, just a typo.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 22, 2018, 05:53:12 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 22, 2018, 05:16:07 AM
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/4bIAAOSwB4NWyzs3/s-l300.jpg)

What a fantastic hair has always had Brautigam! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 22, 2018, 05:53:43 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 22, 2018, 05:50:49 AM
Typo, Karl, just a typo.

Oh, I know.

But, an unfortunate one 0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 22, 2018, 05:54:06 AM

Quote from: Gordo on February 22, 2018, 05:53:12 AM
What a fantastic hair has always had Brautigam! :D

Indeedie.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 22, 2018, 05:54:41 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 22, 2018, 05:53:43 AM
Oh, I know.

But, an unfortunate one 0:)

Corrected.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 22, 2018, 05:57:36 AM

I thank thee.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 22, 2018, 05:59:05 AM

Jörg Demus, an old glory, and almost an exact contemporary of Badura-Skoda, should mentioned too. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 22, 2018, 06:19:48 AM

Quote from: Gordo on February 22, 2018, 05:59:05 AM
Jörg Demus, an old glory, and almost an exact contemporary of Badura-Skoda, should mentioned too. :)

Yes, absolutely. One of my favorite disks of the last couple of years (2011, but I just got it last year) is JD and PBS playing Mozart 4-hand. Just 2 really old guys, playing with the best of them!

[asin]B0055WXVTU[/asin]

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on February 22, 2018, 06:43:35 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 22, 2018, 05:16:07 AM
and Rachmaninoff's complete preludes on a presumably modern piano (no details are offered in the booklet)

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/4bIAAOSwB4NWyzs3/s-l300.jpg)

27 preludes? That's really complete. ;D

I did some googling and found another (likely correct) image:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Bs54cADAL.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 22, 2018, 06:46:29 AM

Quote from: George on February 22, 2018, 06:43:35 AM
27 preludes? That's really complete. ;D

I did some googling and found another (likely correct) image:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Bs54cADAL.jpg)

Hah! I hadn't noticed that. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on February 22, 2018, 08:20:24 AM

Quote from: George on February 22, 2018, 06:43:35 AM
27 preludes? That's really complete. ;D

I did some googling and found another (likely correct) image:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Bs54cADAL.jpg)

Not to too far afield, but Rachmaninoff did in fact write 27 preludes
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Sergei_Rachmaninoff

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 22, 2018, 11:51:12 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 22, 2018, 08:20:24 AM
Not to too far afield, but Rachmaninoff did in fact write 27 preludes
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Sergei_Rachmaninoff

The Brautigam disc has only 24, though: op. 3 no. 2, op. 23 and op. 32. At least my copy has. Now this is a mistery: could there be a release with the same cover which has all 27 of them? ???

EDIT: Yes, a Google search show this to be the case. There are actually two different releases with the same cover, one supercomplete with all 27, one with only 24.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 23, 2018, 03:31:25 AM

Quote from: Florestan on February 22, 2018, 11:51:12 AM
EDIT: Yes, a Google search show this to be the case. There are actually two different releases with the same cover, one supercomplete with all 27, one with only 24.

Thanks; I rather suspected so :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 23, 2018, 01:40:41 PM

IMO this is fantastic, even if you're an incorruptible PI fan (are you there, Gurn? :)

https://youtu.be/PulffEOx1W4

Good try, Mr. Herreweghe. What a finding is miss Hecker! 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 23, 2018, 01:54:59 PM

Quote from: Gordo on February 23, 2018, 01:40:41 PM
IMO this is fantastic, even if you're an incorruptible PI fan (are you there, Gurn? :)

https://youtu.be/PulffEOx1W4

Good try, Mr. Herreweghe. What a finding is miss Hecker! 8)

Wonderful playing! I have never heard of her before, which is no surprise, but maybe will hear more one day. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 23, 2018, 07:39:35 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 23, 2018, 01:54:59 PM
Wonderful playing! I have never heard of her before, which is no surprise, but maybe will hear more one day. :)

8)

It's strange, I loved her almost since the first bar, and the subsequent bars just confirmed this first impression. Her closed eyes during the entire performance, her body as a prolongation of the cello, it's just a beautiful thing to watch. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 24, 2018, 06:41:26 AM

Quote from: Gordo on February 23, 2018, 07:39:35 PM
It's strange, I loved her almost since the first bar, and the subsequent bars just confirmed this first impression. Her closed eyes during the entire performance, her body as a prolongation of the cello, it's just a beautiful thing to watch. :)

Yes, all of that. She provided a certain æsthetic to this already great concerto that Rostropovich, for example, couldn't quite pull off. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on February 28, 2018, 04:53:12 PM

I don't know if this performance has been mentioned, but it's insanely good and I need to purchase it:

https://youtu.be/l07oRR4u-rk

http://frabernardo.com/?portfolio=haydn-the-creation-musica-saeculorum

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 28, 2018, 05:22:46 PM

Quote from: Gordo on February 28, 2018, 04:53:12 PM
I don't know if this performance has been mentioned, but it's insanely good and I need to purchase it:

https://youtu.be/l07oRR4u-rk

http://frabernardo.com/?portfolio=haydn-the-creation-musica-saeculorum

I think we probably did mention it, although it was a while back. I got that CD the day it was released (pre-ordered it!) and must agree, it IS insanely good. :) Great to see it performed, nice video.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on February 28, 2018, 10:46:08 PM

Quote from: Gordo on February 28, 2018, 04:53:12 PM
I don't know if this performance has been mentioned, but it's insanely good and I need to purchase it:

https://youtube.com/v/l07oRR4u-rk

http://frabernardo.com/?portfolio=haydn-the-creation-musica-saeculorum

Nice!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on March 01, 2018, 05:44:03 PM

Interesting MusicWeb article on the first recorded Haydn Symphony cycle (PDF)

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2018/Mar/Maerzendorfer_Haydn_article.pdf

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: aukhawk on March 02, 2018, 05:21:33 AM

A good read, thanks. And listening to the samples on HaydnHouse.com they sound very fresh and lively.
I remember that Oryx label - it was not by any means under Gramophone's radar because the Lionel Rogg survey of Bach's organ music was much admired at the time. And there was a marvellous issue of Nicholas Danby playing pedal harpsichord, very well recorded, dated as late as 1968.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 02, 2018, 05:25:41 AM

Quote from: Daverz on March 01, 2018, 05:44:03 PM
Interesting MusicWeb article on the first recorded Haydn Symphony cycle (PDF)

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2018/Mar/Maerzendorfer_Haydn_article.pdf

A quick glance looks very interesting, already . . . going to load it onto my Kindle for relaxed reading.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on March 02, 2018, 05:47:25 AM

Quote from: North Star on February 28, 2018, 10:46:08 PM
Nice!

No doubt!

Gurn added a good news. I thought that it had only released as DVD, but there is a CD, so it's included in my wishlist now. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 02, 2018, 06:05:46 AM

Quote from: Daverz on March 01, 2018, 05:44:03 PM
Interesting MusicWeb article on the first recorded Haydn Symphony cycle (PDF)

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2018/Mar/Maerzendorfer_Haydn_article.pdf

Thanks, Dave, for that article. It was quite an insightful analysis. While I have little interest in historic recordings, I have a compelling interest in how Haydn has been treated over the years. I have a few Dorati disks and was never overly impressed by them. Nice to see I am not alone. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 02, 2018, 06:06:46 AM

Quote from: Gordo on March 02, 2018, 05:47:25 AM
No doubt!

Gurn added a good news. I thought that it had only released as DVD, but there is a CD, so it's included in my wishlist now. :)

And I was unaware of the video version, so that has been rectified now, too. :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on March 02, 2018, 04:56:12 PM

Quote from: aukhawk on March 02, 2018, 05:21:33 AM
A good read, thanks. And listening to the samples on HaydnHouse.com they sound very fresh and lively.

I bought a bunch of the MHS Lps. What I've sampled has been lively, as you say.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on March 02, 2018, 05:02:45 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 02, 2018, 06:05:46 AM
Thanks, Dave, for that article. It was quite an insightful analysis. While I have little interest in historic recordings, I have a compelling interest in how Haydn has been treated over the years. I have a few Dorati disks and was never overly impressed by them. Nice to see I am not alone. :)

8)

Even the operas?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 02, 2018, 05:05:17 PM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on March 02, 2018, 05:02:45 PM
Even the operas?

Oh, no, I like the operas. I was just referring to the symphonies. Several of the operas are one-and-only's though, and even if there is nothing to compare them against, they are still very fine. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kishnevi on March 02, 2018, 07:08:32 PM

Of at least peripheral interest to Haydnistos
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71j-n3v%2B6cL.jpg)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61wH52Y4TDL.jpg)
Not just because of the Haydn VC, but because of track 11, which is 4:41 long, composed in 1810, by that Salomon. Although more Mozartean than Haydnian in overall sound.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2018, 06:22:02 AM

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on March 02, 2018, 07:08:32 PM
Of at least peripheral interest to Haydnistos
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71j-n3v%2B6cL.jpg)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61wH52Y4TDL.jpg)
Not just because of the Haydn VC, but because of track 11, which is 4:41 long, composed in 1810, by that Salomon. Although more Mozartean than Haydnian in overall sound.

That's a nice lineup of music there. You're right about that Salomon Romance, it's a nice thing. I have it on this Midori Seiler disk, a very nice little throw-in.

(https://imageshack.com/i/pmOE7l4Vj)

Thanks for the rec.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 03, 2018, 08:35:48 AM

Interesting that there is only the one movement from the Myslivecek....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 03, 2018, 09:12:50 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 03, 2018, 08:35:48 AM
Interesting that there is only the one movement from the Myslivecek....

I expect it is just to give a little taste. Myslivecek's VC's are quite fine, and good fun. Pleased to have many of them. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2018, 07:14:21 AM

I expect most of you don't know that I spent much of February in hospital, and it has taken me a while to be able to read and write again. But the subject of this essay was too compelling to ignore for longer, and my long overdue look at the Kaiserlied is now published. Hope you enjoy it. :)

our immortal countryman Haydn (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2018/03/1797-the-music-part-1-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 13, 2018, 07:32:02 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2018, 07:14:21 AM
I expect most of you don't know that I spent much of February in hospital, and it has taken me a while to be able to read and write again.

OmG! I wish you a speedy recovery and all the best, my friend!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2018, 08:24:56 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 13, 2018, 07:32:02 AM
OmG! I wish you a speedy recovery and all the best, my friend!

Thanks. Feeling better every day, especially now that I can read and sit at my computer longer than 10 minutes again! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 13, 2018, 08:50:18 AM

Keep a-mending, O Gurn!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2018, 09:09:00 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 13, 2018, 08:50:18 AM
Keep a-mending, O Gurn!

Roger that, Doc... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Baron Scarpia on March 13, 2018, 09:15:47 AM

I was aware of your long hospitalization, but I did not know your recovery has been so difficult. All the best, and to avoid stress, don't watch the news. I'll keep an eye on things for you and send a PM if the time comes to run down into the bunker. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on March 13, 2018, 09:17:28 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2018, 08:24:56 AM
Thanks. Feeling better every day, especially now that I can read and sit at my computer longer than 10 minutes again! :)

8)

Gute Besserung, Gurn!

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: HIPster on March 13, 2018, 09:58:42 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2018, 08:24:56 AM
Thanks. Feeling better every day, especially now that I can read and sit at my computer longer than 10 minutes again! :)

8)

Glad you are feeling better, Gurn! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2018, 10:44:47 AM

Quote from: Baron Scarpia on March 13, 2018, 09:15:47 AM
I was aware of your long hospitalization, but I did not know your recovery has been so difficult. All the best, and to avoid stress, don't watch the news. I'll keep an eye on things for you and send a PM if the time comes to run down into the bunker. :)

:D Thanks, nothing is more depressing than the news, I must say. Mustn't have a major setback at this point, so nice of you to take the hit for me. ;)

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on March 13, 2018, 09:17:28 AM
Gute Besserung, Gurn!

Sarge

Vielen Dank, Sarge!

Quote from: HIPster on March 13, 2018, 09:58:42 AM
Glad you are feeling better, Gurn! :)

Thank you. For me personally, there is no more serious blow than not being able to sit still and read. Sure glad THAT's over with! 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on March 14, 2018, 12:54:04 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 13, 2018, 07:14:21 AM
But the subject of this essay was too compelling to ignore for longer, and my long overdue look at the Kaiserlied is now published. Hope you enjoy it. :)

our immortal countryman Haydn (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2018/03/1797-the-music-part-1-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Not to ignore the circumstances, but I really enjoyed the essay. I didn't know that Haydn himself was so fond of the tune.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 14, 2018, 04:29:13 AM

Quote from: ørfeo on March 14, 2018, 12:54:04 AM
Not to ignore the circumstances, but I really enjoyed the essay. I didn't know that Haydn himself was so fond of the tune.

Thanks! I had remembered reading things here and there about it, but it wasn't until I started to look them up that I realized there were so many. I left out the biggest one for a later time, but it is even more compelling.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 14, 2018, 07:06:41 AM

Is Haydn ill served by such a conglomerate orchestral arrangement -- or well served? I say: This is much better than any lamely performed Haydn symphony in toto performed at the beginning of a concert.

Classical CD Of The Week: An Imaginary Orchestral Journey With Haydn And The LSO
(https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/960x0/smart/https%3A%2F%2Fblogs-images.forbes.com%2Fjenslaurson%2Ffiles%2F2018%2F03%2FForbes_Classical-CD-of-the-Week_HAYDN_ORCHESTRAL-JOURNEY_RATTLE_LSO-LIVE_Classical-Critic-Jens-F-Laurson-960_.jpg)
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/03/14/classical-cd-of-the-week-an-imaginary-orchestral-journey-with-haydn-and-the-lso/#1079b6b277d6 (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/03/14/classical-cd-of-the-week-an-imaginary-orchestral-journey-with-haydn-and-the-lso/#1079b6b277d6)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 14, 2018, 07:09:08 AM

Quote from: JensEvery lamely performed Haydn symphony to open a concert – as a warmup, not quite taken seriously[1] – is a greater offense to the master than this amiable, well-intentioned in-concert sampler.

When you're right, you're right. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on March 14, 2018, 07:30:12 AM

But these two do not exhaust the options. There is also the option of a well-played complete symphony and I don't really see why a sampler should be preferable to the latter or what purpose the sampler should serve in the first place. I understand a disc of highlights from a 3 (or 15) hour opera as "teaser". But who would hesitate to try a disc with three complete Haydn symphonies and rather try a sampler first?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 14, 2018, 07:36:43 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on March 14, 2018, 07:30:12 AM
But these two do not exhaust the options. There is also the option of a well-played complete symphony and I don't really see why a sampler should be preferable to the latter or what purpose the sampler should serve in the first place. I understand a disc of highlights from a 3 (or 15) hour opera as "teaser". But who would hesitate to try a disc with three complete Haydn symphonies and rather try a sampler first?

The disc in question, although I do call it that, isn't really a 'sampler'. It's, well... a journey across Haydn. And it doesn't preclude proper Haydn concerts from being done. (Though there are very, very, very few done well. I'm on a constant mission with every conductor and administrator I speak, to get well-done Haydn concerts onto programs -- with Haydn played last. But it's a slog even for those in power... much less for someone commenting from the sidelines.)

All I wanted to point out is that this 'sampler', this concert (which is what it was), is a BETTER approach than that what we usually get, when we get Haydn. I didn't mean to suggest that it wasn't worse than something ideal.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 14, 2018, 08:01:14 AM

I wouldn't discourage anyone from it, hopefully it is new music to some and they will be attracted by what they hear. It isn't for me, but that's OK; anyone who gets to hear something 'new' by Haydn will have his/her day improved immeasurably! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on March 14, 2018, 10:39:48 AM

AFAIK Rattle recorded 4 discs with Haydn symphonies, two with the Birmingham (60/70/90, 22/102/86), two with the Berlin orchestra (88-92, Concertante). I have 3 of them and probably would have bought the 4th if I did not have already lots of Haydn. If Rattle had done another 1 or 2 discs with an interesting mix that not only included very frequently performed pieces, there would have been a decent chance that I purchased such a disc. There is zero chance that I purchase an "Imaginary Journey". And I am still not sure who would buy such a thing.

Another option would have been to do the chaos, earthquake, musical clocks and the ouverture in addition to two complete symphonies, say Farewell and another lesser known one. I might have bought such a disc.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 14, 2018, 11:02:29 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on March 14, 2018, 10:39:48 AM
AFAIK Rattle recorded 4 discs with Haydn symphonies, two with the Birmingham (60/70/90, 22/102/86), two with the Berlin orchestra (88-92, Concertante). I have 3 of them and probably would have bought the 4th if I did not have already lots of Haydn. If Rattle had done another 1 or 2 discs with an interesting mix that not only included very frequently performed pieces, there would have been a decent chance that I purchased such a disc. There is zero chance that I purchase an "Imaginary Journey". And I am still not sure who would buy such a thing.

Another option would have been to do the chaos, earthquake, musical clocks and the ouverture in addition to two complete symphonies, say Farewell and another lesser known one. I might have bought such a disc.

It lacks obvious appeal to Haydn-fans like us. I was quite surprised what a joyously-light and entertaining affair it turned out to be but wouldn't have been move, like you, have likely bought it, either.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on March 30, 2018, 11:50:51 PM

More Haydn. Happy Easter Weekend, everyone.

Music For Easter: Joseph Haydn's Seven Last Words
(https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/960x0/smart/https%3A%2F%2Fblogs-images.forbes.com%2Fjenslaurson%2Ffiles%2F2018%2F03%2FHAYDN_hair_signature_Sound-Advice_Classical-Critic_Jens-F-laurson_960.jpg)
The Different Versions & Recommended Recordings
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/03/30/music-for-easter-joseph-haydns-seven-last-words/#1bf638e435db (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/03/30/music-for-easter-joseph-haydns-seven-last-words/#1bf638e435db)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 31, 2018, 01:16:16 AM

I was casting my eye of the Hoboken catalogue recently and I had two questions about concertos:

1. The Flute Concerto Hob.VIIf:1, is it thought to be genuine? If so, why don't we hear it more? It's a very pretty piece.
2. The Cello Concerto Hob.VIIb:g1, is this lost or spurious? There don't seem to be any recordings of it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on March 31, 2018, 03:56:01 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on March 30, 2018, 11:50:51 PM
More Haydn. Happy Easter Weekend, everyone.

Music For Easter: Joseph Haydn's Seven Last Words
(https://thumbor.forbes.com/thumbor/960x0/smart/https%3A%2F%2Fblogs-images.forbes.com%2Fjenslaurson%2Ffiles%2F2018%2F03%2FHAYDN_hair_signature_Sound-Advice_Classical-Critic_Jens-F-laurson_960.jpg)
The Different Versions & Recommended Recordings
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/03/30/music-for-easter-joseph-haydns-seven-last-words/#1bf638e435db (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2018/03/30/music-for-easter-joseph-haydns-seven-last-words/#1bf638e435db)

Nice.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on March 31, 2018, 05:04:02 AM

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on March 31, 2018, 01:16:16 AM
I was casting my eye of the Hoboken catalogue recently and I had two questions about concertos:

1. The Flute Concerto Hob.VIIf:1, is it thought to be genuine? If so, why don't we hear it more? It's a very pretty piece.
2. The Cello Concerto Hob.VIIb:g1, is this lost or spurious? There don't seem to be any recordings of it.

Wikipedia has an answer to one of those questions. The Flute Concerto is lost. Are you sure that's the one you're hearing at all? Because there's another in the same key which is listed as spurious.

It doesn't even list a "VIIb:g1", so I don't know if that corresponds to one of the ones the article on Haydn concertos mentions.

EDIT: Ah. I see from another source that no, that cello concerto is a different one. But the numbering suggests that maybe it's a later discovery? I've found one tiny source suggesting that it's lost, so perhaps all that is known is the opening line or something.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 31, 2018, 07:34:50 AM

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on March 31, 2018, 01:16:16 AM
I was casting my eye of the Hoboken catalogue recently and I had two questions about concertos:

1. The Flute Concerto Hob.VIIf:1, is it thought to be genuine? If so, why don't we hear it more? It's a very pretty piece.
2. The Cello Concerto Hob.VIIb:g1, is this lost or spurious? There don't seem to be any recordings of it.

Current straight info on Hob.VIIf:1 is that it is written by Leopold Hof(f)man. Artaria Editions publishes it as being his most famous work, due to the attribution to Haydn for so many years.

Hob.VIIb:g1 is listed as lost. This raises the question: how it was known in the first place? If Haydn noted the incipit in his Entwurf Katalog(EK), then there is no doubt he wrote one, it's just lost. If it comes from some publisher's catalog, like Breitkopf for example, then it could be by anyone in the world. I just looked in the New Grove, and Feder does NOT list it as being in EK, although he lists the year (1773?). So I would say it had to come from a publisher's catalog. So I am very dubious, but then, no one believed concerto #2 in D was by Haydn until the autograph manuscript showed up.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 31, 2018, 06:32:05 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 31, 2018, 07:34:50 AM
Current straight info on Hob.VIIf:1 is that it is written by Leopold Hof(f)man. Artaria Editions publishes it as being his most famous work, due to the attribution to Haydn for so many years.

Hob.VIIb:g1 is listed as lost. This raises the question: how it was known in the first place? If Haydn noted the incipit in his Entwurf Katalog(EK), then there is no doubt he wrote one, it's just lost. If it comes from some publisher's catalog, like Breitkopf for example, then it could be by anyone in the world. I just looked in the New Grove, and Feder does NOT list it as being in EK, although he lists the year (1773?). So I would say it had to come from a publisher's catalog. So I am very dubious, but then, no one believed concerto #2 in D was by Haydn until the autograph manuscript showed up.

8)

Thanks Gurn, guess the version I was looking at hadn't been updated with the latest information. The Flute Concerto is still well worth a listen.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 31, 2018, 06:46:26 PM

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on March 31, 2018, 06:32:05 PM
Thanks Gurn, guess the version I was looking at hadn't been updated with the latest information. The Flute Concerto is still well worth a listen.

This is a real problem with composers in general, and Haydn in particular. I have seen a great many statements published about Haydn, especially in liner notes, which were outdated years ago. What's a music lover to do? :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on March 31, 2018, 06:48:19 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 31, 2018, 06:46:26 PM
I have seen a great many statements published about Haydn, especially in liner notes, which were outdated years ago. What's a music lover to do? :-\

Get a job as a writer of liner notes.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 31, 2018, 06:53:46 PM

Quote from: Madiel on March 31, 2018, 06:48:19 PM
Get a job as a writer of liner notes.

I'm available... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 12, 2018, 10:32:56 AM

Interesting, attaching pictures seems problematic... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 12, 2018, 10:35:46 AM

Bravo!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on April 12, 2018, 11:19:03 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 12, 2018, 10:32:56 AM
Interesting, attaching pictures seems problematic... :-\

8)

Neato!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 12, 2018, 12:25:25 PM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 12, 2018, 10:35:46 AM
Bravo!

What, do you lads see the picture? I don't see any sign that it attached and posted. This is a mystery... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Baron Scarpia on April 12, 2018, 12:28:54 PM

Presumably your browser is blocking it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 12, 2018, 04:19:34 PM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 12, 2018, 12:39:41 PM
Do you see it now?

(http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=54.0;attach=54840;image)

Nope, absolutely nothing to indicate anything is even there. And now I am on my home computer, which even has a different browser. Hmmmm.... When I quote you, Jens, I see the link there in your quoted text, but otherwise I wouldn't know it was there.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 12, 2018, 05:30:29 PM

Trying out a new image hosting service. Even so, you should listen to this set. It's only 3 disks, dammit! :D

(https://i.imgur.com/i4fTTwP.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 13, 2018, 03:09:14 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 12, 2018, 12:25:25 PM
What, do you lads see the picture? I don't see any sign that it attached and posted.

I do. And indications are that Jens does, too 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on April 13, 2018, 03:17:45 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 12, 2018, 12:25:25 PM
What, do you lads see the picture? I don't see any sign that it attached and posted. This is a mystery... :-\

8)

I see the attachment as clear as day, both on my phone and my laptop.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 13, 2018, 03:18:47 AM

Cheers, George!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on April 13, 2018, 03:24:34 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 13, 2018, 03:18:47 AM
Cheers, George!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: The One on April 13, 2018, 04:39:46 AM

Show-off!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 13, 2018, 06:06:10 AM

Quote from: George on April 13, 2018, 03:17:45 AM
I see the attachment as clear as day, both on my phone and my laptop.

I can only think this is from the upgrade. I could always see uploaded pictures before, and I can see remote links from hosting sites, but there is no vague indication that I posted a picture, which I did from work using Firefox. I couldn't see it there but I thought when I came home I would see it on Chrome. No. I am curious if anyone else has tried attaching a picture and can they see their picture? Can I see their picture? :-\

Quote from: The One on April 13, 2018, 04:39:46 AM
Show-off!

:D

Well yes, I am. But I was actually just putting it up so one person could see it and was going to quickly delete it. Since I couldn't see it I thought it wasn't there, which shot that plan in the ass. I did manage to go 1.5 years without posting it though... :-[

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 13, 2018, 06:29:00 AM

Le Show-Off Malgré Lui . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 13, 2018, 07:02:00 AM

Please, Gurn, don't leave us drooling! Post the whole article! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 13, 2018, 07:08:20 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 13, 2018, 07:02:00 AM
Please, Gurn, don't leave us drooling! Post the whole article! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 13, 2018, 07:15:37 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 13, 2018, 07:08:20 AM
Copyright issues at the moment. I am trying to get permission to post it as a blog essay. :)

8)

Doesn't the copyright belong to you personally?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 13, 2018, 07:45:14 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 13, 2018, 07:15:37 AM
Doesn't the copyright belong to you personally?

No, when you write something on commission for a journal to publish, they own the copyright for X amount of time. You gave it up when you sent it off to them.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 13, 2018, 08:00:56 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 13, 2018, 07:45:14 AM
No, when you write something on commission for a journal to publish, they own the copyright for X amount of time. You gave it up when you sent it off to them.

8)

I see. Kind of the first contract of Haydn at Eszterhaza. :laugh:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 13, 2018, 08:23:13 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 13, 2018, 08:00:56 AM
I see. Kind of the first contract of Haydn at Eszterhaza. :laugh:

Well, not vastly different... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on April 13, 2018, 09:34:43 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 13, 2018, 07:08:20 AM
Copyright issues at the moment. I am trying to get permission to post it as a blog essay. :)

8)

I see three names there. which one are you?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 13, 2018, 09:37:56 AM

Romeo, wherefore art thou Romeo? . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 13, 2018, 02:41:57 PM

Quote from: George on April 13, 2018, 09:34:43 AM
I see three names there. which one are you?

I'm on top, of course... :D

8)

PS - I learned all I know about Shakespeare at Poco sforzando's knee... :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Baron Scarpia on April 13, 2018, 02:52:26 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 13, 2018, 07:45:14 AM
No, when you write something on commission for a journal to publish, they own the copyright for X amount of time. You gave it up when you sent it off to them.

8)

You've yet to learn the most important technique in academia. Take out one paragraph, add one paragraph, re-jigger the phrasing throughout, and you have a new publication to pad your CV!

:)

P.S., I'm not really kidding.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 13, 2018, 07:01:44 PM

Quote from: Baron Scarpia on April 13, 2018, 02:52:26 PM
You've yet to learn the most important technique in academia. Take out one paragraph, add one paragraph, re-jigger the phrasing throughout, and you have a new publication to pad your CV!

:)

P.S., I'm not really kidding.

Doh! Well, this is my first (non-self-)publication, so I have a way to go to learn the tricks of the trade. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 13, 2018, 07:03:57 PM

By the way, I got written permission this evening to publish as I please, and so I am clarifying and de-obfuscating and will publish tomorrow AM. If anyone is interested... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 13, 2018, 10:16:13 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 13, 2018, 07:03:57 PM
By the way, I got written permission this evening to publish as I please, and so I am clarifying and de-obfuscating and will publish tomorrow AM. If anyone is interested... :)

8)

Excellent! TIA.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 14, 2018, 05:07:04 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 13, 2018, 07:03:57 PM
By the way, I got written permission this evening to publish as I please, and so I am clarifying and de-obfuscating and will publish tomorrow AM. If anyone is interested... :)

8)

Huzzah!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 14, 2018, 07:23:00 AM

So, Haydn vs. Shakespeare. Death match or match made in heaven? I opted for the latter when the Haydn Society of Great Britain asked me to cover the story. I had a strict word limit of 2000 which I stretched out to 2500, but it was barely enough to encompass the Clash of the Titans. So here it is, I hope you enjoy...

So that's where S & D came from! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2018/04/how-shakespeare-led-haydn-to-sturm-und-drang.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mahlerian on April 14, 2018, 08:36:35 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 14, 2018, 07:23:00 AM
So, Haydn vs. Shakespeare. Death match or match made in heaven? I opted for the latter when the Haydn Society of Great Britain asked me to cover the story. I had a strict word limit of 2000 which I stretched out to 2500, but it was barely enough to encompass the Clash of the Titans. So here it is, I hope you enjoy...

So that's where S & D came from! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2018/04/how-shakespeare-led-haydn-to-sturm-und-drang.html)

Thanks!
8)

An excellent read! Thank you very much for posting.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 14, 2018, 11:30:19 AM

Quote from: Mahlerian on April 14, 2018, 08:36:35 AM
An excellent read! Thank you very much for posting.

Thanks! I thought it was an interesting topic when they tossed it to me, just had no idea where it was going to go. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 16, 2018, 05:28:17 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 14, 2018, 07:23:00 AM
So that's where S & D came from! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2018/04/how-shakespeare-led-haydn-to-sturm-und-drang.html)

Excellent, thanks for posting!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 16, 2018, 06:08:32 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 16, 2018, 05:28:17 AM
Excellent, thanks for posting!

You're welcome. (I thought you would be less agreeable... :D )

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 16, 2018, 06:14:27 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 16, 2018, 06:08:32 AM
I thought you would be less agreeable... :D

Why?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 16, 2018, 07:56:40 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 16, 2018, 06:14:27 AM
Why?

You are, sometimes. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 16, 2018, 08:47:40 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 16, 2018, 07:56:40 AM
You are, sometimes. :)

That's true, but --- I asked for the article, you published it. Why I would / could have been disagreeable in this context is beyond me. :o

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Baron Scarpia on April 16, 2018, 08:57:32 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 16, 2018, 08:47:40 AM
That's true, but --- I asked for the article, you published it. Why I would / could have been disagreeable in this context is beyond me. :o

Why you are disagreeable in most of the contexts you are disagreeable in is beyond me. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 16, 2018, 09:14:52 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 16, 2018, 08:47:40 AM
That's true, but --- I asked for the article, you published it. Why I would / could have been disagreeable in this context is beyond me. :o

No, I just thought you would have more to say than that, like you agreed or disagreed with the concept, for example. Not that you were agreeable or disagreeable. Although you are unpredictable, which some would call a part of your charm. 0:)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 16, 2018, 09:37:26 AM

Quote from: Baron Scarpia on April 16, 2018, 08:57:32 AM
Why you are disagreeable in most of the contexts you are disagreeable in is beyond me. :)

:laugh:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 16, 2018, 09:43:20 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 16, 2018, 09:14:52 AM
No, I just thought you would have more to say than that, like you agreed or disagreed with the concept, for example.

Oh, but I thought that the agreement was implicit in "excellent". Iirc, you covered the topic also in one of your blog installments. Your arguments are convincingly enough, at least to me --- this, and the fact that today my contrarian mode is set to "disactivate". :) :P

Quote
Not that you were agreeable or disagreeable. Although you are unpredictable, which some would call a part of your charm. 0:)

Flatterer! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Baron Scarpia on April 16, 2018, 09:54:10 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 16, 2018, 09:37:26 AM
:laugh:

And now you're being agreeable. Go figure! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 16, 2018, 09:56:48 AM

Quote from: Baron Scarpia on April 16, 2018, 09:54:10 AM
And now you're being agreeable. Go figure! ;D

Nobody's perfect. :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 16, 2018, 10:02:19 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 16, 2018, 09:56:48 AM
Nobody's perfect. :P

Agreed. :D Yes, a few of the parts were in various blog posts, since they stretched over time. There was also stuff I learned later on, too late to blog originally. The things about Shakespeare in 18th century Germany, for example. Some day I must go back and rewrite some of the early blog posts. I have gotten dozens of new books since I wrote those, and there is a lot I no longer need to infer. Soon enough, I suppose. I will retire in December and suddenly have more than enough time to do all these things. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on April 25, 2018, 06:40:45 AM

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dblf0QsXUAEZZ2N.jpg)

#morninglistening to #Haydn #PianoSonatas w/#RudolfBuchbinder on @warnerclassics

: http://a-fwd.to/7zX4YeT

#Buchbinder needs to warm up over the first dozen sonatas, or so it seems, but then he is alive and wonderfully alert to these lightly magnificent works... (http://a-fwd.to/7zX4YeT)

But it IS a real shame for those first twenty, lovelessly banged-out, quasi-sight-read sonatas.

The thing is, shining in the late sonats really isn't that difficult. One might just get the Brendel set for that, if wanting it on a modern instrument. So where does that put this set? Among the two exploratory sets, along with McCabe?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 25, 2018, 06:48:01 AM

Oh, that is a shame.

A crying shame, we may even say.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 25, 2018, 08:03:20 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 25, 2018, 06:40:45 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dblf0QsXUAEZZ2N.jpg)

#morninglistening to #Haydn #PianoSonatas w/#RudolfBuchbinder on @warnerclassics

: http://a-fwd.to/7zX4YeT

#Buchbinder needs to warm up over the first dozen sonatas, or so it seems, but then he is alive and wonderfully alert to these lightly magnificent works... (http://a-fwd.to/7zX4YeT)

But it IS a real shame for those first twenty, lovelessly banged-out, quasi-sight-read sonatas.

The thing is, shining in the late sonats really isn't that difficult. One might just get the Brendel set for that, if wanting it on a modern instrument. So where does that put this set? Among the two exploratory sets, along with McCabe?

I don't have a huge need for a new modern instruments version unless it is a big step above McCabe. Since it appears not to be, I guess I'll be happy with what I have now. Thanks for filling that gap for me though.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on April 25, 2018, 05:05:16 PM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on April 25, 2018, 06:40:45 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dblf0QsXUAEZZ2N.jpg)

#morninglistening to #Haydn #PianoSonatas w/#RudolfBuchbinder on @warnerclassics

: http://a-fwd.to/7zX4YeT

#Buchbinder needs to warm up over the first dozen sonatas, or so it seems, but then he is alive and wonderfully alert to these lightly magnificent works... (http://a-fwd.to/7zX4YeT)

But it IS a real shame for those first twenty, lovelessly banged-out, quasi-sight-read sonatas.

The thing is, shining in the late sonats really isn't that difficult. One might just get the Brendel set for that, if wanting it on a modern instrument. So where does that put this set? Among the two exploratory sets, along with McCabe?

That set must sell well, this is the third or fourth time it has been released on CD. For modern piano and sound, it is my favorite set. Derzhavina is well ahead of him, but her set is plagued with digital pops and ticks. :-[

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Alek Hidell on April 25, 2018, 06:59:45 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 16, 2018, 10:02:19 AM
I will retire in December and suddenly have more than enough time to do all these things. :)

8)

Hey, congratulations! My wife was able to retire this past December (though she immediately started another job - we're still years away from Social Security and Medicare eligibility) and it's been good for her. I'm sure the Haus will be even better when you're able to devote even more time to its upkeep. :) I've developed a real affinity for Haydn thanks to the Haus.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 25, 2018, 07:09:12 PM

Quote from: Alek Hidell on April 25, 2018, 06:59:45 PM
Hey, congratulations! My wife was able to retire this past December (though she immediately started another job - we're still years away from Social Security and Medicare eligibility) and it's been good for her. I'm sure the Haus will be even better when you're able to devote even more time to its upkeep. :) I've developed a real affinity for Haydn thanks to the Haus.

Thanks, I am delighted to hear that. For me, the more I've explored Haydn the more I've found to like. You're supposed to get burned out, haven't seen that yet. :)

Retirement is certainly something to look forward to. People seem to think it means I won't have anything to do, but really, it is a chance to do those 10,000 things I've always put off over the years. Writing more and music are definitely on the list!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on April 26, 2018, 12:52:29 AM

Quote from: George on April 25, 2018, 05:05:16 PM
That set must sell well, this is the third or fourth time it has been released on CD. For modern piano and sound, it is my favorite set. Derzhavina is well ahead of him, but her set is plagued with digital pops and ticks. :-[

Yes, at least the 4th time:

1997:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51DM7s5iZpL.jpg) (https://amzn.to/2r18YQZ)

2007:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51vpOm7yyuL.jpg) (https://amzn.to/2Hv3Bki)

2011:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91bNlXeP2rL._SX522_.jpg) (https://amzn.to/2r1Dsma)

2017:
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71aEmAkGFpL._SL1500_.jpg) (http://a-fwd.to/7zX4YeT)

I think I might like Jeno Jando better, but I'll have to re-listen to him. Ditto Derzhavina, where I don't recall the digital pops just now.
Buchbinder is very good towards the established sonatas, but everything that was composed for the harpischord or is spurrious sounds like he just banged it out. Might be considered appropriate to go for zero dynamics with harpsichord music... but then why use the piano? Unfortunately my Schornsheim set is not with me, so I can't go back to that for the early sonatas.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 26, 2018, 04:38:44 AM

Quote from: San Antone on April 25, 2018, 10:53:08 PM
We must be the same age, since retirement is also on my calendar this December. Yeah - spending more time on music and writing are also in my plans. And moving. We're looking on Zillow for some place with 2+ acres and in a nice rural setting.

Here's to us!

;)

I hope you can find a place that's just what you want. I bought a piece of farmland when I was 35 and spent the next 20 years paying for it. Now, I really want to spend time looking at what it has to offer. Nature photography is another interest which is easily fulfilled when living in the country! :)

Indeed; Skoal! Prosit! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on April 26, 2018, 04:48:39 AM

Volume 8 of Haydn 2032 will have the most eclectic coupling yet:

Haydn 43 "Mercury"
Haydn 28
Haydn 63 "Roxolana" (sic?)
Bartók Romanian Folk Dances

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 26, 2018, 05:05:42 AM

Quote from: Brian on April 26, 2018, 04:48:39 AM
Volume 8 of Haydn 2032 will have the most eclectic coupling yet:

Haydn 43 "Mercury"
Haydn 28
Haydn 63 "Roxolana" (sic?)
Bartók Romanian Folk Dances

Say whaaat?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 26, 2018, 05:10:30 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 26, 2018, 04:38:44 AM
I hope you can find a place that's just what you want. I bought a piece of farmland when I was 35 and spent the next 20 years paying for it. Now, I really want to spend time looking at what it has to offer. Nature photography is another interest which is easily fulfilled when living in the country! :)

Indeed; Skoal! Prosit! :D

8)

Huzzah!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 26, 2018, 05:54:05 AM

Quote from: Brian on April 26, 2018, 04:48:39 AM
Volume 8 of Haydn 2032 will have the most eclectic coupling yet:

Haydn 43 "Mercury"
Haydn 28
Haydn 63 "~~Roxolana~~" (sic?) La Roxelane
Bartók Romanian Folk Dances

Well, isn't THAT interesting!? I can happily look forward to it. Although right now I am more looking forward to Vol 6. Man, these guys are slow.... :'(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 26, 2018, 05:54:30 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 26, 2018, 05:10:30 AM
Huzzah!

Kinda what I was thinking... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on April 27, 2018, 02:44:08 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 26, 2018, 05:54:05 AMMan, these guys are slow.... :'(

I know! I'm starting to think it might take them 14 more years ;)

That misspelling was in the original email, by the way. Some Haydn experts they are!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 27, 2018, 03:01:44 PM

Quote from: Brian on April 27, 2018, 02:44:08 PM
I know! I'm starting to think it might take them 14 more years ;)

That misspelling was in the original email, by the way. Some Haydn experts they are!

Yeah, I got that email, it was all in German, so I figured maybe they spelled it that way in German?!?!?

I have to say, it might take them more than that at this pace. Sure like the first five though! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on April 27, 2018, 03:15:06 PM

Quote from: Brian on April 26, 2018, 04:48:39 AM
Volume 8 of Haydn 2032 will have the most eclectic coupling yet:

Haydn 43 "Mercury"
Haydn 28
Haydn 63 "Roxolana" (sic?)
Bartók Romanian Folk Dances

Did they really run out of other 18th Century symphonies to record? No more Kraus, Vanhal, Rosetti, Boccherini?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Baron Scarpia on April 27, 2018, 03:55:04 PM

Seriously, 2032? Since they have been so obliging to give us the date, 14 years from now, when the set of recordings will be finished, maybe they can provide us the date when the project will be canceled. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 27, 2018, 06:11:43 PM

Quote from: Daverz on April 27, 2018, 03:15:06 PM
Did they really run out of other 18th Century symphonies to record? No more Kraus, Vanhal, Rosetti, Boccherini?

There is a museum in Vienna that has a collection of original scores from the 17th century forward. Forgive my German, it is like Gesselschaft der Musikfreunde or sommat such. And they reputedly have over 10,000 symphonies dating from between 1750 and 1800... Well, I like Bartók, and those original dances probably date from this period too. I'm hoping for the best. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 27, 2018, 06:13:00 PM

Quote from: Baron Scarpia on April 27, 2018, 03:55:04 PM
Seriously, 2032? Since they have been so obliging to give us the date, 14 years from now, when the set of recordings will be finished, maybe they can provide us the date when the project will be canceled. :)

Heaven forfend. I have promised myself I will get the final volume as an 80th birthday present for myself. ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 28, 2018, 01:37:04 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 27, 2018, 06:11:43 PM
There is a museum in Vienna that has a collection of original scores from the 17th century forward. Forgive my German, it is like Gesselschaft der Musikfreunde or sommat such. And they reputedly have over 10,000 symphonies dating from between 1750 and 1800...

Speaking of which, this is a real gem:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71J%2BsV6RQyL._SY355_.jpg)

Unsurprisingly, the best of the lot is Dittersdorff's A major, featuring one of the wittiest Rondos I've ever heard.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on April 28, 2018, 02:16:10 AM

For no particular reason I'm reminded that Max Goberman's Haydn recordings are on Tidal and Spotify

https://tidal.com/artist/3541377
https://open.spotify.com/artist/2lX3Xa8sYCpxoysABBQ87i

This is going to be a fun collection to dip into.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2018, 06:52:54 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 28, 2018, 01:37:04 AM
Speaking of which, this is a real gem:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71J%2BsV6RQyL._SY355_.jpg)

Unsurprisingly, the best of the lot is Dittersdorff's A major, featuring one of the wittiest Rondos I've ever heard.

Cool, that looks interesting! The monasteries are treasure troves of music. There are many Haydn works which we wouldn't know today if not for the monks. I'll have to find that... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 29, 2018, 04:50:20 PM

I've noticed that when I get to the biggest, best-known works, that's the time I tend to struggle getting it out. Not that I have writer's block, it's more like trying to write something that hasn't been written a thousand times before.

So this time we will look at a motet which achieved sainthood so to speak, and then at what is possibly the last great set of minuets written in the 18th century. And then, the Op. 76 quartets.....

Hope you enjoy, I learned some new things, maybe you will too. :)

...they are full of invention, fire, good taste, and new effects (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2018/04/1797-the-music-part-2-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on May 13, 2018, 12:50:42 PM

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71Au-hSOY%2BL._SX455_.jpg)

Working through this set for the second time. I'm now up to the penultimate disc. Gorgeous, playful playing here. Still upset about the clicks/pops heard throughout.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on May 13, 2018, 04:21:03 PM

Quote from: George on May 13, 2018, 12:50:42 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71Au-hSOY%2BL._SX455_.jpg)

Working through this set for the second time. I'm now up to the penultimate disc. Gorgeous, playful playing here. Still upset about the clicks/pops heard throughout.

Clicks and pops! I wonder if these could be inter-sample overs:

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/tagged/inter-sample-overs

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on May 13, 2018, 04:47:42 PM

Quote from: Daverz on May 13, 2018, 04:21:03 PM
Clicks and pops! I wonder if these could be inter-sample overs:

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/tagged/inter-sample-overs

I honestly don't know, but they are annoying. They occur frequently throughout the entire 9CD set.

I emailed the company twice about it and they never got back to me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on May 13, 2018, 05:19:01 PM

Quote from: George on May 13, 2018, 04:47:42 PM
I honestly don't know, but they are annoying. They occur frequently throughout the entire 9CD set.

I emailed the company twice about it and they never got back to me.

I'm listening to it on Tidal now. Unfortunately the track order is a complete fustercluck.

...What I sampled was wonderful, and I couldn't resist the Zoverstocks price. Hopefully, there will be no clicks and pops.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on June 03, 2018, 04:29:41 AM

I visited my folks last month. They are in an old folks home. I had lunch with them, and the other person at their table was a prickly old fellow, apparently in the last stages of a muscle destroying illness. My folks told him I love classical music, and had just seen several classical concerts in Chicago. He asked me what I had seen, and I told him "Debussy, LvB, Orff, and Tchaikovsky." He said, "Well, none of that is classical music."
Turns out he is crazy about Mozart and Haydn, but mainly Haydn, and plays him all day. I asked him what conductors he likes for Haydn, and he said "depends on the symphony--for example, for 94 the best is Van Beinum."
I was pretty skeptical. He'd never heard Bruggen or Hogwood.

Anyway, I'm playing the Haydn disk of this series.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51eD4hKD1eL.jpg)

Wouldn't surprise me if he was right. This is terrific. Airy and sometimes fleet, yet unrushed, with nice backbone. Playing is gorgeous and sensitive. For 1950ish, sound is unbelievable. Is Scribendum always this good?
Anyway, playing it reminded me of this thread. Bit quiet over here!

[Edit: just read some about it. Turns out it was recorded by Philips, and Scribendum is a British company that licensed the music for rerelease]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 03, 2018, 06:32:51 AM

Quote from: Mookalafalas on June 03, 2018, 04:29:41 AM
I visited my folks last month. They are in an old folks home. I had lunch with them, and the other person at their table was a prickly old fellow, apparently in the last stages of a muscle destroying illness. My folks told him I love classical music, and had just seen several classical concerts in Chicago. He asked me what I had seen, and I told him "Debussy, LvB, Orff, and Tchaikovsky." He said, "Well, none of that is classical music."
Turns out he is crazy about Mozart and Haydn, but mainly Haydn, and plays him all day. I asked him what conductors he likes for Haydn, and he said "depends on the symphony--for example, for 94 the best is Van Beinum."
I was pretty skeptical. He'd never heard Bruggen or Hogwood.

Anyway, I'm playing the Haydn disk of this series.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51eD4hKD1eL.jpg)

Wouldn't surprise me if he was right. This is terrific. Airy and sometimes fleet, yet unrushed, with nice backbone. Playing is gorgeous and sensitive. For 1950ish, sound is unbelievable. Is Scribendum always this good?
Anyway, playing it reminded me of this thread. Bit quiet over here!

[Edit: just read some about it. Turns out it was recorded by Philips, and Scribendum is a British company that licensed the music for rerelease]

Well, he's right of course, but you knew that. Classic Era can be stretched to encompass Beethoven (big debate, not for here), but you gotta love a purist. My kind of guy! :)

There were some fine recordings in that era, as you see. Some of the issues that 'modern purists' would complain about is that they didn't have reliable scores to work from, only heavily edited scores from earlier times which had a lot of Haydn's own abrasiveness and dissonance removed, on the premise that "he certainly mustn't have meant that, must be a mistake. He's Papa Haydn..." ::) And don't want to wear out the audience with repeats, they'll never know the difference. There were also quite some few who played Haydn like he was Tchaikovsky. Of course, they did the same to Mozart. My own distaste for historic recordings usually has nothing at all to do with the musicians, who were normally quite as fine as any today. It is more what they inherited from the time leading up to them. :-\

That said, anyone who listens to Haydn in any form comes away from it better off for the experience. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 09, 2018, 05:14:34 PM

Sometimes, when you don't have a specific piece of music you want to write about, it is a bit harder to sum up the facts you DO wish to make known. And so it was in this essay. I learned a lot more than I was able to share with you here, but I hope and wish you will enjoy this 5th anniversary essay. 1797 draws to a close, another major milestone year in Haydn's life. :)

Haydn, brought to you by... (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2018/06/1797-the-year-part-2.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 09, 2018, 05:30:02 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 09, 2018, 05:14:34 PM
Sometimes, when you don't have a specific piece of music you want to write about, it is a bit harder to sum up the facts you DO wish to make known. And so it was in this essay. I learned a lot more than I was able to share with you here, but I hope and wish you will enjoy this 5th anniversary essay. 1797 draws to a close, another major milestone year in Haydn's life. :)

Haydn, brought to you by... (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2018/06/1797-the-year-part-2.html)

Thanks!
8)

Thank you for yet another article, equally delightful and informative. And hearty congratulations on the milestone!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 09, 2018, 05:38:27 PM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 09, 2018, 05:30:02 PM
Thank you for yet another article, equally delightful and informative. And hearty congratulations on the milestone!

Thank you kindly, Dr. H. I really do enjoy the chance to share the fruits of my research with others who love Haydn's music as much as I do. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on June 10, 2018, 01:56:49 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 03, 2018, 06:32:51 AM
Well, he's right of course, but you knew that. Classic Era can be stretched to encompass Beethoven (big debate, not for here), but you gotta love a purist. My kind of guy! :)

There were some fine recordings in that era, as you see. Some of the issues that 'modern purists' would complain about is that they didn't have reliable scores to work from, only heavily edited scores from earlier times which had a lot of Haydn's own abrasiveness and dissonance removed, on the premise that "he certainly mustn't have meant that, must be a mistake. He's Papa Haydn..." ::) And don't want to wear out the audience with repeats, they'll never know the difference. There were also quite some few who played Haydn like he was Tchaikovsky. Of course, they did the same to Mozart. My own distaste for historic recordings usually has nothing at all to do with the musicians, who were normally quite as fine as any today. It is more what they inherited from the time leading up to them. :-\

That said, anyone who listens to Haydn in any form comes away from it better off for the experience. :)

8)

Thanks for the generous response. It's too bad we can't sit down and listen to it :-\ You might still have reservations, but I don't think for the reasons you mentioned...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 10, 2018, 06:02:16 AM

Quote from: Mookalafalas on June 10, 2018, 01:56:49 AM
Thanks for the generous response. It's too bad we can't sit down and listen to it :-\ You might still have reservations, but I don't think for the reasons you mentioned...

That would be most enjoyable, I'm sure. Always a pleasure to listen to Haydn. And just to show that I'm not rigid abut such things, I do have a Symphony #100 conducted by Hans Knappertsbusch. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 22, 2018, 09:48:07 AM

Cross-post:

http://www.youtube.com/v/tPk0OuYiWDw

I've heard Haydn symphonies twice in Symphony Hall, but on neither occasion did the performance sparkle like this.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on June 30, 2018, 09:03:44 AM

Well, I've not been here in a while, but have been listening to several of my 3 box collections of the Haydn Piano Trios - left a couple of posts in the 'listening thread' which will be shortly buried there, so thought I'd repeat each here; also a couple of PDFs of reviews for those interested. Dave :)

QuoteHaydn, Joseph - Piano Trios w/ Trio 1790 on period instruments; keyboardist is Harald Hoeren on fortepiano (after Matthäus Heilmann, c. 1790, built by Derek Adam, 1978) for first 6 discs, then harpsichord for last 3 CDs; also own the other two sets shown below w/ Haydn Trio Eisenstadt on modern instruments - several reviews attached for first two collections, for those interested. Dave :)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51FPaBFdSjL.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51LLMsS2I7L.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51VT8yxqKML.jpg)

QuoteHaydn, Joseph - Piano Trios w/ the Haydn Trio Eisenstadt (HTE) on modern instruments - yesterday, I listened to one of my two period instrument boxes of these works, i.e. Trio 1790 - now I did own a 2-CD set of these trios w/ the Beaux Arts Trio (BAT), but 10 or so years ago (according to my Amazon record), I went w/ the Trio Eisenstadt box which cost me about $30 (now OOP and selling as a used set on Amazon USA for $200) - of course, the BAT box w/ recordings from the 1970s (shown below) is available at a good price (i.e. $35) - seems to be the least expensive choice for a complete collection, and highly recommended performances over the decades (a review of each is attached); also, there are some 'lively' comments on Amazon USA for both the BAT & HTE listings. Dave :)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51LLMsS2I7L.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71ROxrSco0L._SL1400_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 14, 2018, 07:35:05 PM

With 1797 in the rearview, we move ahead to the Year of the Creation, one of Haydn's Greatest Hits. Since we talked recently about 'where is Michael?', I finally found him right here in Vienna in 1798. All in all, quite a year. :)

The creation of The Creation, and that's not all! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2018/07/1798-the-year-part-1-.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vandermolen on July 16, 2018, 01:32:39 AM

Another rare guest appearance from me on this thread. 8)
BBC Music Magazine (August) feature a cover CD which features Haydn's String Quartet in D, Op.64 No.5 'The Lark' performed by the Calidore Quartet. I know very little Haydn but, on the whole, prefer him to Mozart and this work has been a very nice discovery.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 16, 2018, 02:58:55 AM

Visit more often 0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vandermolen on July 16, 2018, 03:51:43 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 16, 2018, 02:58:55 AM
Visit more often 0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 16, 2018, 04:05:20 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 14, 2018, 07:35:05 PM
With 1797 in the rearview, we move ahead to the Year of the Creation, one of Haydn's Greatest Hits. Since we talked recently about 'where is Michael?', I finally found him right here in Vienna in 1798. All in all, quite a year. :)

The creation of The Creation, and that's not all! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2018/07/1798-the-year-part-1-.html)

Thanks!
8)

Another wonderfully informative post, O Gurn. How curious that Elßler spelt Haydn with that diacritic! The composer up at 6, and . . . dinner is at 10pm? He was a marvel (even allowing for dinner consisting of bread and wine). Michael Haydn wrote 47 Masses! Holy cats.

Goldarnit, I always learn something (and usually more than one something) when I read your blog, sieur.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 16, 2018, 04:21:10 AM

Quote from: vandermolen on July 16, 2018, 01:32:39 AM
Another rare guest appearance from me on this thread. 8)
BBC Music Magazine (August) feature a cover CD which features Haydn's String Quartet in D, Op.64 No.5 'The Lark' performed by the Calidore Quartet. I know very little Haydn but, on the whole, prefer him to Mozart and this work has been a very nice discovery.

Always a pleasure to host you here, sir. Op 64 #5 has been a major hit in England, especially, since its composition in 1790. As it should very well be, it is that fine combination between technical perfection and caprice for the listener. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 16, 2018, 04:35:00 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 16, 2018, 04:05:20 AM
Another wonderfully informative post, O Gurn. How curious that Elßler spelt Haydn with that diacritic! The composer up at 6, and . . . dinner is at 10pm? He was a marvel (even allowing for dinner consisting of bread and wine). Michael Haydn wrote 47 Masses! Holy cats.

Goldarnit, I always learn something (and usually more than one something) when I read your blog, sieur.

Thanks, Karl. I love to inform.

I am hoping someone will inform me about what that should sound like and why he did it, did everyone do it in the time? Only Hungarians perhaps? I had just never seen it before, and Landon reprinted it without comment, so I was at a loss. The only use I ever saw of it was Ÿasӱe's name. Character Map calls it a "Cyrillic letter U with diaresis". Must be Slavic??

Anyway, as far as factoids go, I join you in my fascination with them. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 16, 2018, 04:44:52 AM

At first blush, it suggests making the y more an equally strong vowel, rather than the closing shade of a diphthong. But, this is an amateur speculating.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 16, 2018, 05:15:45 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 14, 2018, 07:35:05 PM
With 1797 in the rearview, we move ahead to the Year of the Creation, one of Haydn's Greatest Hits. Since we talked recently about 'where is Michael?', I finally found him right here in Vienna in 1798. All in all, quite a year. :)

The creation of The Creation, and that's not all! (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2018/07/1798-the-year-part-1-.html)

Thanks!
8)

Thanks, Gurn, an excellent essay, as usual. What stroke me the most was Haydn's time managing. I think it deserves a close inspection because probably without those firmly established habits, his immense output is almost unexplainable.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 16, 2018, 05:18:22 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 16, 2018, 04:44:52 AM
At first blush, it suggests making the y more an equally strong vowel, rather than the closing shade of a diphthong. But, this is an amateur speculating.

That makes sense, but many of the European letters are nothing but a puzzle to me, as they likely were to our ancestors in America, who only emigrated here so they could drop all diacriticals. I think it was one of their recruiting slogans... ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 16, 2018, 05:21:11 AM

Quote from: Gordo on July 16, 2018, 05:15:45 AM
Thanks, Gurn, an excellent essay, as usual. What stroke me the most was Haydn's time managing. I think it deserves a close inspection because probably without those firmly established habits, his immense output is almost unexplainable.

Thanks, Gordo. Yes, the time management is one of those quirks of character (he seems to have been like that all his life) which no doubt contributed to the firm foundation needed to become who and what he was. Even though I am somewhat boring in my regularity, I can't approach my scheduling with anywhere near the constancy Haydn did. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 16, 2018, 05:28:55 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 16, 2018, 05:21:11 AM
Thanks, Gordo. Yes, the time management is one of those quirks of character (he seems to have been like that all his life) which no doubt contributed to the firm foundation needed to become who and what he was. Even though I am somewhat boring in my regularity, I can't approach my scheduling with anywhere near the constancy Haydn did. :-\

8)

That small description of his habits, immediately recalled me a famous anecdote about Kant (a Haydn's contemporary), "a man whose habits were so regular that housewives could set their watches by his legendary afternoon walk." Boring? I wildly want something like that for me... :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 16, 2018, 05:40:56 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 16, 2018, 05:18:22 AM
That makes sense, but many of the European letters are nothing but a puzzle to me, as they likely were to our ancestors in America, who only emigrated here so they could drop all diacriticals. I think it was one of their recruiting slogans... ;)

8)

Death Before Umlauts! 0:)

QuoteCharacter Map calls it a "Cyrillic letter U with diaresis". Must be Slavic??

I am no expert in Polish, but I have not seen that in Polish names. I am much less any expert in Czech . . . .

A footnote which may not enlighten . . . but maybe the diacritic is not meant to emphasize the vowel. I am thinking of the Russian vowel и . . . when it appears with no mark, it is the full vowel, e.g. икра (caviar). When it is part of a diphthong, is when there is a diacritic, e.g. край (edge). So maybe Elßler did not mean to emphasis it as a vowel . . . .

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vandermolen on July 16, 2018, 06:25:08 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 16, 2018, 04:21:10 AM
Always a pleasure to host you here, sir. Op 64 #5 has been a major hit in England, especially, since its composition in 1790. As it should very well be, it is that fine combination between technical perfection and caprice for the listener. :)

8)

Thanks Gurn - totally agree.
:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on July 16, 2018, 06:40:45 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 16, 2018, 05:18:22 AM
many of the European letters are nothing but a puzzle to me

FWIW, here are the Romanian correct transliteration of some famous composers, with the additional mention that what you see is what you pronounce:

Ceaikovski
Șostakovici
Rahmaninov

and also some famous capitals of the world:

Londra
Varșovia
Moscova

As a rule of thumb, though, Western names are spelled exactly as in the original language (except geographical names, as partially illustrated above); it's only in cases which use a different alphabet than Latin that a phonetical spelling is the norm.

For instance, although all Romanian newspapers print Sharapova, this is blatantly incorrect; the correct spelling is Șarapova.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 16, 2018, 02:05:37 PM

Quote from: Florestan on July 16, 2018, 06:40:45 AM
FWIW, here are the Romanian correct transliteration of some famous composers, with the additional mention that what you see is what you pronounce:

Ceaikovski
Șostakovici
Rahmaninov

and also some famous capitals of the world:

Londra
Varșovia
Moscova

As a rule of thumb, though, Western names are spelled exactly as in the original language (except geographical names, as partially illustrated above); it's only in cases which use a different alphabet than Latin that a phonetical spelling is the norm.

For instance, although all Romanian newspapers print Sharapova, this is blatantly incorrect; the correct spelling is Șarapova.

Yes, but what then do you make of Haӱdn? While I would wish to mark it down as ignorance, which it would have been in MY case, I will assume that Elßler knew exactly what he was doing. What was he doing?? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on July 17, 2018, 12:26:03 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 16, 2018, 02:05:37 PM
Yes, but what then do you make of Haӱdn? While I would wish to mark it down as ignorance, which it would have been in MY case, I will assume that Elßler knew exactly what he was doing. What was he doing?? :)

8)

I suspect that "y" could have been pronounced actually as "ü" and the dots over it marked the pronunciation as "i". I haven't seen any other instance of such spelling, though.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 17, 2018, 04:46:25 AM

Quote from: Florestan on July 17, 2018, 12:26:03 AM
I suspect that "y" could have been pronounced actually as "ü" and the dots over it marked the pronunciation as "i". I haven't seen any other instance of such spelling, though.

No, neither I. I was taken aback when I read it, but the surprising thing to me was that Landon reprinted it without comment. Quite unlike him, and disappointing. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on July 17, 2018, 12:50:03 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 17, 2018, 04:46:25 AM
No, neither I. I was taken aback when I read it, but the surprising thing to me was that Landon reprinted it without comment. Quite unlike him, and disappointing. :-\

8)

The tiny and luxurious details of the scholar! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 17, 2018, 02:05:24 PM

Quote from: Gordo on July 17, 2018, 12:50:03 PM
The tiny and luxurious details of the scholar! ;D

I don't need to dwell on politics when I have pronunciations to gnaw on... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 17, 2018, 06:31:45 PM

Quote from: Florestan on July 17, 2018, 12:26:03 AM
I suspect that "y" could have been pronounced actually as "ü" and the dots over it marked the pronunciation as "i". I haven't seen any other instance of such spelling, though.

Been thinking about this for a while now.

I have seen Haydn's name misspelled a variety of ways, although it is wrong to talk about 'misspelling' in an age when rules of spelling weren't established yet. Most people couldn't "spell" their own name! As a result, many names you see written are more phonetically than anything else. Haydn's spelling of a lot of English names (which I left intact in my essays when I was quoting the Notebooks) is ample proof of that.

Anyway, one of these 'misspellings', not often seen, is "Haidn" or "Haiden". Phonetically, if you could construe the 'ӱ' to pronounce like an 'i', then Elssler, who knew it had a 'y' in the middle, could very well have felt as though Haӱdn was the correct spelling phonetically and literally. Hell, maybe he's right! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on July 17, 2018, 10:32:59 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 17, 2018, 06:31:45 PM
Been thinking about this for a while now.

I have seen Haydn's name misspelled a variety of ways, although it is wrong to talk about 'misspelling' in an age when rules of spelling weren't established yet. Most people couldn't "spell" their own name! As a result, many names you see written are more phonetically than anything else. Haydn's spelling of a lot of English names (which I left intact in my essays when I was quoting the Notebooks) is ample proof of that.

Anyway, one of these 'misspellings', not often seen, is "Haidn" or "Haiden". Phonetically, if you could construe the 'ӱ' to pronounce like an 'i', then Elssler, who knew it had a 'y' in the middle, could very well have felt as though Haӱdn was the correct spelling phonetically and literally. Hell, maybe he's right! :)

8)

There's probably even less to it. Unfamiliarity and whim... a spell of 'exotic' fancy.
The most likely pronunciation, following the few rules of spelling that were out there at the time (not many!), would make "Haӱdn" pronounced like "Huh-Eden"... which doesn't strike me as a satisfying reason for that particular spelling.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 18, 2018, 04:32:27 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on July 17, 2018, 10:32:59 PM
There's probably even less to it. Unfamiliarity and whim... a spell of 'exotic' fancy.
The most likely pronunciation, following the few rules of spelling that were out there at the time (not many!), would make "Haӱdn" pronounced like "Huh-Eden"... which doesn't strike me as a satisfying reason for that particular spelling.

Hmm, interesting, and damned near tragic! :D

I would buy exotic fancy, but since Elßler was with Haydn his whole life, and was a copyist/scribe by profession, unfamiliarity is remote. Whimsicality would be adequate, I should think. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on July 18, 2018, 05:41:23 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 18, 2018, 04:32:27 AM
Hmm, interesting, and damned near tragic! :D

I would buy exotic fancy, but since Elßler was with Haydn his whole life, and was a copyist/scribe by profession, unfamiliarity is remote. Whimsicality would be adequate, I should think. :)

8)

Is he consistent? I know in Bach, depending on how hard a scribe pressed on his quill for the (then common) vertical bar above the lower case "U", it was either a "U" or an "Ü". We still don't know if Bach was following Luther when he wrote "die JÜDEN aber schrieen" (St. John Passion), or if he was just a few grams of pressure too excited.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 18, 2018, 06:46:20 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on July 18, 2018, 05:41:23 AM
Is he consistent? I know in Bach, depending on how hard a scribe pressed on his quill for the (then common) vertical bar above the lower case "U", it was either a "U" or an "Ü". We still don't know if Bach was following Luther when he wrote "die JÜDEN aber schrieen" (St. John Passion), or if he was just a few grams of pressure too excited.

My observation of Elssler, based on viewing a couple of dozen documents he wrote (fair copies of Haydn's music mainly) is that he is one of the best handwriters I've seen from the time, and quite consistent, so yes, I would say so. If he wrote a diaeresis over the y he clearly intended to. It is what he was trying to say which puzzles. I'd like to ask Landon for his thoughts, but he chickened out on me and died first... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on July 23, 2018, 12:02:32 AM

It isn't Slavic. A couple of sources say that it's occasionally used in Dutch/Afrikaans and French. In Dutch it's sometimes used to replace the "ij" letter, in handwriting.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vandermolen on August 13, 2018, 10:26:19 AM

Here I am again to let you know that I enjoyed the live performance of 'Chaos' from The Creation which began the Prom concert I attended in London on Friday. I was interested to see that the conductor, Sir Antonio Pappano, allowed the end of the Haydn extract to morph into the beginning of Bernstein's Jeremiah Symphony without a break. I don't think that I've ever seen that happen in a concert before, although I thought that it worked rather well. I wonder what Haydn would have thought about it!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 13, 2018, 10:39:43 AM

Quote from: vandermolen on August 13, 2018, 10:26:19 AM
Here I am again to let you know that I enjoyed the live performance of 'Chaos' from The Creation which began the Prom concert I attended in London on Friday. I was interested to see that the conductor, Sir Antonio Pappano, allowed the end of the Haydn extract to morph into the beginning of Bernstein's Jeremiah Symphony without a break. I don't think that I've ever seen that happen in a concert before, although I thought that it worked rather well. I wonder what Haydn would have thought about it!

If I understand what you're saying he did there, it was actually similar to what Haydn did in The Creation: the 'overture' comes to a close and there we are, singing about 'Let there be Light'. That is a nicely done touch, I like it! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: ritter on August 13, 2018, 11:26:21 AM

Quote from: vandermolen on August 13, 2018, 10:26:19 AM
.... I was interested to see that the conductor, Sir Antonio Pappano, allowed the end of the Haydn extract to morph into the beginning of Bernstein's Jeremiah Symphony without a break. I don't think that I've ever seen that happen in a concert before, although I thought that it worked rather well. I wonder what Haydn would have thought about it!

I've only seen such a thing done in concert once. Jonathan Nott conducted the Bamberg orchestra in Ives's The Unanswered Question and proceeded to Schubert's Unfinished Symphony just like that, attacca. The effect was mesmerising... :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 13, 2018, 02:06:55 PM

Quote from: ritter on August 13, 2018, 11:26:21 AM
I've only seen such a thing done in concert once. Jonathan Nott conducted the Bamberg orchestra in Ives's The Unanswered Question and proceeded to Schubert's Unfinished Symphony just like that, attacca. The effect was mesmerising... :)

Rattle and Berlin PO did that with Sibelius 6th and 7th a few years back, both pieces played the second half of the concert with virtually no break between them which allowed for no applause.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: schnittkease on August 13, 2018, 11:56:02 PM

By any chance, have the Quatuor mosaïques' Haydn recordings been released as a complete box set? And if so, how do I go about getting my grubby hands on them?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vandermolen on August 14, 2018, 01:39:37 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 13, 2018, 10:39:43 AM
If I understand what you're saying he did there, it was actually similar to what Haydn did in The Creation: the 'overture' comes to a close and there we are, singing about 'Let there be Light'. That is a nicely done touch, I like it! :)

8)

Thanks for the clarification Gurn and how interesting. Also I was v interested to read the posts below about the Ives/Schubert and Sibelius 'morphings'. A totally new concept to me. I remember with Colin Matthews's addition of 'Pluto' to Holst's Planets Suite (not a good idea in my view, especially as Pluto subsequently lost its planet status) at the end the Matthews addition fades back into 'Neptune' which I did like.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: aukhawk on August 14, 2018, 02:58:50 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 13, 2018, 02:06:55 PM
Rattle and Berlin PO did that with Sibelius 6th and 7th a few years back, both pieces played the second half of the concert with virtually no break between them which allowed for no applause.

I've got a recording of Rattle doing that, at a televised concert in London. There is a 5 second silence between the dying-away of the 6th and the opening tymp roll of the 7th, with the audience obviously well primed to keep schtum because there is quite a lot of coughing during the music itself, but I have visions of somebody leaning across and gagging the cougher for the required 5 seconds. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 14, 2018, 03:01:07 AM

Quote from: vandermolen on August 14, 2018, 01:39:37 AM
Thanks for the clarification Gurn and how interesting. Also I was v interested to read the posts below about the Ives/Schubert and Sibelius 'morphings'. A totally new concept to me. I remember with Colin Matthews's addition of 'Pluto' to Holst's Planets Suite (not a good idea in my view, especially as Pluto subsequently lost its planet status) at the end the Matthews addition fades back into 'Neptune' which I did like.

That is a case where IMO it would not be right, not to let Holst have the last word.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 14, 2018, 03:03:45 AM

Quote from: schnittkease on August 13, 2018, 11:56:02 PM
By any chance, have the Quatuor mosaïques' Haydn recordings been released as a complete box set? And if so, how do I go about getting my grubby hands on them?

I do not know of such a complete package.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vandermolen on August 14, 2018, 03:06:05 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 14, 2018, 03:01:07 AM
That is a case where IMO it would not be right, not to let Holst have the last word.

Absolutely right Karl!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 14, 2018, 04:18:39 AM

Quote from: schnittkease on August 13, 2018, 11:56:02 PM
By any chance, have the Quatuor mosaïques' Haydn recordings been released as a complete box set? And if so, how do I go about getting my grubby hands on them?

Yes, they have. I hadn't bought them as singles originally, and then, when they came out as 2 boxes I managed to scoop them up. Shortly after, they came out as one box. I haven't seen them lately, but since I know they exist (the important part!), I also reckon they will be. out. there. somewhere!!! :D

8)

Edit: Amazon show out of stock, here is what the package looks like though:
[asin]B00EO7XPPC[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 14, 2018, 04:47:42 AM

I knew
Gurn would come through!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 14, 2018, 06:14:14 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 14, 2018, 04:47:42 AM
I knew
Gurn would come through!

:D When it comes to HIP Haydn, I've been around the block in both directions and back again. ;) I heard (but don't know for a fact) that the liner notes for this box consist of track listings... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: schnittkease on August 15, 2018, 12:29:30 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 14, 2018, 04:18:39 AM
Yes, they have. I hadn't bought them as singles originally, and then, when they came out as 2 boxes I managed to scoop them up. Shortly after, they came out as one box. I haven't seen them lately, but since I know they exist (the important part!), I also reckon they will be. out. there. somewhere!!! :D

8)

Edit: Amazon show out of stock, here is what the package looks like though:
[asin]B00EO7XPPC[/asin]

Well, damn. >:(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 15, 2018, 12:40:41 PM

Quote from: schnittkease on August 15, 2018, 12:29:30 PM
Well, damn. >:(

Try Europe. Sometimes they are virtually giving them away at places. JPC is one, when something is fixing to go OOP and they want to get rid of their stock, they sell it really cheap. That rarely happens in USA... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 18, 2018, 07:39:16 AM

Some things are almost too big for an amateur to tackle. The Creation is one of the most famous and popular pieces of music from the 18th century, and it was a daunting task to try and come to grips with it. Being somewhat foolish, but never feckless, I had a go at it. Part 1 published today, see if you learn as much from it as I did. :)

Maybe creation came out of the void, but this one didn't, it just seemed like it... (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2018/08/1798-the-music-part-1.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 18, 2018, 08:29:15 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 18, 2018, 07:39:16 AM
Some things are almost too big for an amateur to tackle. The Creation is one of the most famous and popular pieces of music from the 18th century, and it was a daunting task to try and come to grips with it. Being somewhat foolish, but never feckless, I had a go at it. Part 1 published today, see if you learn as much from it as I did. :)

Maybe creation came out of the void, but this one didn't, it just seemed like it... (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2018/08/1798-the-music-part-1.html)

Thanks!
8)

Very cool, Gurn. Thanks for posting. I'm anxious to give a read later. Seeing The Creation performed live last year was an eye-opening experience. Definitely elevated the respect i already had for the work.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 18, 2018, 08:53:36 AM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 18, 2018, 08:29:15 AM
Very cool, Gurn. Thanks for posting. I'm anxious to give a read later. Seeing The Creation performed live last year was an eye-opening experience. Definitely elevated the respect i already had for the work.

Thanks, Greg. It is intimidating for a writer to come up against something like this. Even breaking it into small bites has its challenges! :) Hope you enjoy.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 18, 2018, 12:05:37 PM

I'm in Florida, some Henningmusick on a program tomorrow—otherwise I'd wade right in!

Keep on keepin' on, O Gurn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 18, 2018, 12:49:14 PM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 18, 2018, 12:05:37 PM
I'm in Florida, some Henningmusick on a program tomorrow—otherwise I'd wade right in!

Keep on keepin' on, O Gurn.

Florida, yikes! It's summer there, Karl (in case you hadn't noticed). All good wishes with the Henningmusick... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on August 18, 2018, 06:14:40 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 18, 2018, 07:39:16 AM
Some things are almost too big for an amateur to tackle. The Creation is one of the most famous and popular pieces of music from the 18th century, and it was a daunting task to try and come to grips with it. Being somewhat foolish, but never feckless, I had a go at it. Part 1 published today, see if you learn as much from it as I did. :)

Maybe creation came out of the void, but this one didn't, it just seemed like it... (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2018/08/1798-the-music-part-1.html)

Thanks!
8)

Fantastic, Gurn! Quite a mystery you have there, but very intriguing. Looking forward to your next chapter.
Are the four recording covers of Creation your personal recs? I own the McCreesh but haven't heard the others.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 18, 2018, 07:05:19 PM

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on August 18, 2018, 06:14:40 PM
Fantasic, Gurn! Quite a mystery you have there, but very intriguing. Looking forward to your next chapter.
Are the four recording covers of Creation your personal recs? I own the McCreesh but haven't heard the others.

Thanks, Greg. Living as we do in the 21st century, we finally have a grip on many of those answers. Even back in the 1970's they were almost unknown. But even at that, it took weeks to get as far as I have. :)

They are all ones I think very highly of: 2 in German and 2 in English. I have many though, it's very hard to pick one and say 'that's my fave!'. I am going to post some other in future chapters. There are loads more German than English. Hope that balance shifts one day, I know Haydn would have wished it so, as you will see next time.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 04, 2018, 05:06:06 AM

Things have been quiet here, I see. Well, I've been doing some undercover work on Haydn's Greatest Hit, if you thought he was a monk who missed his calling, you have a surprise coming, I think. Guy was a regular Rousseau!

More New Wave, actually... (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2018/10/1798-the-music-part-2-.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 04, 2018, 05:17:09 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 04, 2018, 05:06:06 AM
Things have been quiet here, I see. Well, I've been doing some undercover work on Haydn's Greatest Hit, if you thought he was a monk who missed his calling, you have a surprise coming, I think. Guy was a regular Rousseau!

More New Wave, actually... (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2018/10/1798-the-music-part-2-.html)

Thanks!
8)

Wonderful, richly informative, and an engaging read, as ever, Gurn. Bravo!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on October 04, 2018, 06:28:40 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 04, 2018, 05:06:06 AM
Things have been quiet here, I see. Well, I've been doing some undercover work on Haydn's Greatest Hit, if you thought he was a monk who missed his calling, you have a surprise coming, I think. Guy was a regular Rousseau!

More New Wave, actually... (http://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2018/10/1798-the-music-part-2-.html)

Thanks!
8)

Well done sir!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 04, 2018, 08:28:41 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on October 04, 2018, 05:17:09 AM
Wonderful, richly informative, and an engaging read, as ever, Gurn. Bravo!

Quote from: JBS on October 04, 2018, 06:28:40 AM
Well done sir!

Thank you both very kindly. I must say, the amount of information relatable to that work is overwhelming, it is all too easy to lose one's focus. Glad you liked it! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 07, 2018, 11:09:16 AM

I have a file which is Haydn 88 symphony which I've tagged Rosbaud, did he play it or did do you think I've tagged it incorrectly?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 07, 2018, 12:32:51 PM

If this set below includes all southwest German radio recordings of Haydn by Rosbaud, there is no #88. (And I think the only studio recordings on DG are 92 and 104.) So it seems likely that it is incorrectly tagged.

[asin]B079878GGN[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 07, 2018, 08:55:17 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on October 07, 2018, 12:32:51 PM
If this set below includes all southwest German radio recordings of Haydn by Rosbaud, there is no #88. (And I think the only studio recordings on DG are 92 and 104.) So it seems likely that it is incorrectly tagged.

[asin]B079878GGN[/asin]

Can I let you have a copy, see what you think? It may be a concert performance or a radio performance. Normally I'm pretty good about tagging correctly . . . I'll put it here later so that anyone who wants can have a listen.

Here

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1biK2yQkPJ9OXV0dOR8-m7whoePNExJ79

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 07, 2018, 11:28:23 PM

thanks. Of course it could be Rosbaud (the first few minutes seem to show some "Rosbaudian" features) but not from/with the Southwest German Radio, therefore not included in the big box.

There is a candidate below, so despite some misattributions having happened with Melodiya issues of German (Reichsrundfunk etc.) material, this could be the recording in question. Supposedly with a Berlin Radio Symphony Orchestra.

https://www.discogs.com/de/J-Haydn-D-Cimarosa-J-Brahms-H-Rosbaud-Untitled/release/12423879

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on October 08, 2018, 03:01:41 AM

Confirmed, it's the Melodyia recording, thanks for listening.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on October 22, 2018, 04:27:59 PM

Amazon gives the release date as Nov 2, and adds "Volume 1" to the title
[asin]B07DS3DJHP[/asin]
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71I1roVrj8L.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 22, 2018, 04:56:59 PM

Quote from: JBS on October 22, 2018, 04:27:59 PM
Amazon gives the release date as Nov 2, and adds "Volume 1" to the title
[asin]B07DS3DJHP[/asin]
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71I1roVrj8L.jpg)

Sweet!

I love Beyer's playing too: this shall be mine, on or about the same time that London Haydn Quartet is releasing Opus 64. Ain't November great? :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 27, 2018, 12:45:51 PM

Listening now:

My first exposure [on CD, at least] (! ??? ) to the Tatrai Quartet in Haydn.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dqid0h_W4AAzvxb.jpg)

#morninglistening to #Haydn #StringQuartets w/@TatraiQuartet on @_Hungaroton on #Paganini's #Birthday*

: http://a-fwd.to/6hOtxlc

*My dedication to this has limits!

#inktober2018

#opus20 #SunQuartets (http://a-fwd.to/6hOtxlc)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 27, 2018, 07:08:29 PM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on October 27, 2018, 12:45:51 PM
Listening now:

My first exposure [on CD, at least] (! ??? ) to the Tatrai Quartet in Haydn.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dqid0h_W4AAzvxb.jpg)

#morninglistening to #Haydn #StringQuartets w/@TatraiQuartet on @_Hungaroton on #Paganini's #Birthday*

: http://a-fwd.to/6hOtxlc

*My dedication to this has limits!

#inktober2018

#opus20 #SunQuartets (http://a-fwd.to/6hOtxlc)

I have Op 50 & 76. Overall I felt they were just too... deliberate. Like they were lacking any spontaneity. That might be a good approach to many composers (hey, their playing was magnificent!), but for Haydn, not so much. At least in my opinion. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 16, 2018, 06:17:27 PM

You would have thought finishing and staging The Creation would have been enough to keep Haydn amused for the rest of 1798, but no... he turned around and wrote his most famous Mass on top of that! :o I enjoyed looking into the background of this work, since I got to listen to it a lot. It stands up well to that. :)

Desperate times require desperate masses! (https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2018/11/1798_the_music_pt_3.html) :D

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on November 16, 2018, 06:33:27 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 16, 2018, 06:17:27 PM
You would have thought finishing and staging The Creation would have been enough to keep Haydn amused for the rest of 1798, but no... he turned around and wrote his most famous Mass on top of that! :o I enjoyed looking into the background of this work, since I got to listen to it a lot. It stands up well to that. :)

Desperate times require desperate masses! (https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2018/11/1798_the_music_pt_3.html) :D

Thanks,
8)

Your usual excellence.
I have a fuzzy memory that there is at least some confirming evidence Nelson did hear this mass during his visit..,but it's a fuzzy memory...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 16, 2018, 06:40:43 PM

Quote from: JBS on November 16, 2018, 06:33:27 PM
Your usual excellence.
I have a fuzzy memory that there is at least some confirming evidence Nelson did hear this mass during his visit..,but it's a fuzzy memory...

Thanks. Getting this one posted was a bear, the link between Word and the blog software is broken so I had to do it all in the built in editor. I think you can see the struggle that was. :D

He certainly heard A Mass... well, the whole visit was a hoot, I'll cover it in depth soon (1800), but I have yet to read anything other than "it is believed to be the case..." Maybe something has changed recently. I run across new stuff all the time when I really start digging. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 17, 2018, 04:19:50 AM

O Gurn, the latest instalment in your outstanding blog is always a delight to read!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 17, 2018, 05:41:53 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 17, 2018, 04:19:50 AM
O Gurn, the latest instalment in your outstanding blog is always a delight to read!

You are far too kind, Dr. H.. Glad you enjoyed!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on November 18, 2018, 03:14:17 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 16, 2018, 06:17:27 PM
Desperate times require desperate masses! (https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2018/11/1798_the_music_pt_3.html) :D

Excellent as usual. There's a typo, though, right at the beginning in the table: Solo et pensoso is a sonnet, not a sonata. And btw, the spelling on the Antonini disc cover is wrong, it misses the t in et. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on November 18, 2018, 03:36:25 AM

Quote from: Florestan on November 18, 2018, 03:14:17 AM
Excellent as usual. There's a typo, though, right at the beginning in the table: Solo et pensoso is a sonnet, not a sonata. And btw, the spelling on the Antonini disc cover is wrong, it misses the t in et. :)

Petrarch missed the t, you mean? http://www.lieder.net/get_text.html?TextId=109308

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on November 18, 2018, 06:04:41 AM

That's the fault of the modern Italian language; it always misses the t in et (there is occasionally a "d" before some vowels).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 18, 2018, 07:06:51 AM

Quote from: Florestan on November 18, 2018, 03:14:17 AM
Excellent as usual. There's a typo, though, right at the beginning in the table: Solo et pensoso is a sonnet, not a sonata. And btw, the spelling on the Antonini disc cover is wrong, it misses the t in et. :)

Yep, sure enough. My bad, cranio-rectal inversion... :-\

Quote from: Jo498 on November 18, 2018, 06:04:41 AM
That's the fault of the modern Italian language; it always misses the t in et (there is occasionally a "d" before some vowels).

Yes, I looked that up before I posted because I was curious. 'et' = Classic Italian, 'e' = Modern Italian. Sorry, Andrei, you must direct your complaint to the appropriate parties... :D :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on November 18, 2018, 09:18:00 AM

Quote from: North Star on November 18, 2018, 03:36:25 AM
Petrarch missed the t, you mean? http://www.lieder.net/get_text.html?TextId=109308

Any version of this sonnet which prints e instead of et is not Petrarca's original. See below.

Quote from: Jo498 on November 18, 2018, 06:04:41 AM
That's the fault of the modern Italian language; it always misses the t in et (there is occasionally a "d" before some vowels).

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 18, 2018, 07:06:51 AM
Yes, I looked that up before I posted because I was curious. 'et' = Classic Italian, 'e' = Modern Italian. Sorry, Andrei, you must direct your complaint to the appropriate parties... :D :D

That's all fine except that Petrarca did not write in modern Italian; his language is full of Latinisms and in this sonnet he used et consistently.

Solo et pensoso i più deserti campi
vo mesurando a passi tardi et lenti,
et gli occhi porto per fuggire intenti
ove vestigio human l'arena stampi.

Altro schermo non trovo che mi scampi
dal manifesto accorger de le genti,
perché negli atti d'alegrezza spenti
di fuor si legge com'io dentro avampi:

sì ch'io mi credo omai che monti et piagge
et fiumi et selve sappian di che tempre
sia la mia vita, ch'è celata altrui.

Ma pur sì aspre vie né sì selvagge
cercar non so ch'Amor non venga sempre
ragionando con meco, et io co·llui.

Note also two other Latinisms: human instead of uman and con meco instead of con me (incidentally, con meco is pleonastic since mecum in Latin means exactly with me).

Actually, modern Italians need some sort of "translation" to understand it in full. See here: https://letteritaliana.weebly.com/solo-et-pensoso.html (https://letteritaliana.weebly.com/solo-et-pensoso.html)

and here:

https://it.wikisource.org/wiki/Canzoniere_(Rerum_vulgarium_fragmenta)/Solo_et_pensoso_i_pi%C3%BA_deserti_campi (https://it.wikisource.org/wiki/Canzoniere_(Rerum_vulgarium_fragmenta)/Solo_et_pensoso_i_pi%C3%BA_deserti_campi)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: North Star on November 18, 2018, 09:31:18 AM

Quote from: Florestan on November 18, 2018, 09:18:00 AM
Any version of this sonnet which prints e instead of et is not Petrarca's original. See below.

That's all fine except that Petrarca did not write in modern Italian; his language is full of Latinisms and in this sonnet he used et consistently.

Solo et pensoso i più deserti campi
vo mesurando a passi tardi et lenti,
et gli occhi porto per fuggire intenti
ove vestigio human l'arena stampi.

Altro schermo non trovo che mi scampi
dal manifesto accorger de le genti,
perché negli atti d'alegrezza spenti
di fuor si legge com'io dentro avampi:

sì ch'io mi credo omai che monti et piagge
et fiumi et selve sappian di che tempre
sia la mia vita, ch'è celata altrui.

Ma pur sì aspre vie né sì selvagge
cercar non so ch'Amor non venga sempre
ragionando con meco, et io co·llui.

Note also two other Latinisms: human instead of uman and con meco instead of con me (incidentally, con meco is pleonastic since mecum in Latin means exactly with me).

Actually, modern Italians need some sort of "translation" to understand it in full. See here: https://letteritaliana.weebly.com/solo-et-pensoso.html (https://letteritaliana.weebly.com/solo-et-pensoso.html)

Interesting. Still, I wouldn't call the Antonini disc's spelling a misspelling, it's just using a (very old) modernization. Luca Marenzio set the text in a madrigal and he used the 'e' spelling, in 1599.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on November 18, 2018, 09:46:45 AM

Quote from: North Star on November 18, 2018, 09:31:18 AM
Interesting. Still, I wouldn't call the Antonini disc's spelling a misspelling, it's just using a (very old) modernization. Luca Marenzio set the text in a madrigal and he used the 'e' spelling, in 1599.

According to lieder.net, both Marenzio and Haydn used a version which mingles e and et. The inconsistency might be motivated musically: solo e pensoso and et io collui sound euphonic, but solo et pensoso and e io collui not that much. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: amw on November 19, 2018, 02:02:16 AM

(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/9b/0n/kyzo5hpxb0n9b_600.jpg)

Recorded 1995/7 and just reissued. These performances are very much to my taste, as always with this quartet: on the fast side, rhythmically driven & with a great sense of wit. Only downside is that the fast tempi + lack of repeats means each quartet is over much too soon, so I have to go back and listen again immediately.... really not that much of a downside when I think about it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 19, 2018, 04:26:18 AM

Quote from: amw on November 19, 2018, 02:02:16 AM
(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/9b/0n/kyzo5hpxb0n9b_600.jpg)

Recorded 1995/7 and just reissued. These performances are very much to my taste, as always with this quartet: on the fast side, rhythmically driven & with a great sense of wit. Only downside is that the fast tempi + lack of repeats means each quartet is over much too soon, so I have to go back and listen again immediately.... really not that much of a downside when I think about it.

I have the older (original?) version of those: when I got them they supplanted the Tokyo's as my favorite (MI) version. I like their style! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on November 19, 2018, 05:32:04 AM

I also bought the separate discs ca. 10 years ago at some expense - but they are very good. The Amati also did a good op.77 (more competition here and maybe not quite as distinctive as their op.50) as well as a mixed Mozart/Haydn disc (I don't have the latter and am not sure which works are included).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on November 19, 2018, 06:00:47 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 19, 2018, 04:26:18 AM
I have the older (original?) version of those: when I got them they supplanted the Tokyo's as my favorite (MI) version. I like their style! :)

8)

Wow. I was wondering whether I should go for them... but apparently YES! :-)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 19, 2018, 11:24:39 AM

Yeah, 600 pages, thanks for all the blogs Gurn, and the illuminating discussions... on to 1000!

:D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 19, 2018, 11:37:59 AM

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on November 19, 2018, 11:24:39 AM
Yeah, 600 pages, thanks for all the blogs Gurn, and the illuminating discussions... on to 1000!

:D

I very much appreciate everyone's contributions. I try to learn something new every day. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on November 19, 2018, 12:54:35 PM

Does anyone know if this is worth checking out if it becomes available in the US?
(https://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/800/93/7/4/167.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 19, 2018, 01:02:36 PM

Quote from: JBS on November 19, 2018, 12:54:35 PM
Does anyone know if this is worth checking out if it becomes available in the US?
(https://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/800/93/7/4/167.jpg)

People who really like historic recordings tell me that this is the best Haydn cycle of its time by far. IIRC, Märzendorfer was the first to use Landon's UR-scores, and he was philosophically attuned to the music quite well. If you like historic recordings, this could well be just what you want. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on November 19, 2018, 01:05:25 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 19, 2018, 01:02:36 PM
People who really like historic recordings tell me that this is the best Haydn cycle of its time by far. IIRC, Märzendorfer was the first to use Landon's UR-scores, and he was philosophically attuned to the music quite well. If you like historic recordings, this could well be just what you want. :)

8)

Thanks! Although if the publicity blurbs are correct, this was for a while the best cycle simply because it was the only one!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 19, 2018, 04:12:46 PM

Quote from: JBS on November 19, 2018, 01:05:25 PM
Thanks! Although if the publicity blurbs are correct, this was for a while the best cycle simply because it was the only one!

The only complete cycle, yes, but just like now, there were other efforts out there. Some were quite good, like Leslie Jones and the Little Orchestra. I've been told it was overall better than Dorati, for what it's worth.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on November 20, 2018, 12:21:02 AM

Eleven-page long review of Maerzendorfer's cycle here:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2018/Mar/Maerzendorfer_Haydn_article.pdf (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2018/Mar/Maerzendorfer_Haydn_article.pdf)

Excerpt: The evidence here is that Maerzendorfer had Haydn in his bloodstream while Dorati was just doing a professional job.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 20, 2018, 04:24:39 AM

Quote from: Florestan on November 20, 2018, 12:21:02 AM
Eleven-page long review of Maerzendorfer's cycle here:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2018/Mar/Maerzendorfer_Haydn_article.pdf (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2018/Mar/Maerzendorfer_Haydn_article.pdf)

Excerpt: The evidence here is that Maerzendorfer had Haydn in his bloodstream while Dorati was just doing a professional job.

Yup. Haven't read that yet, but people (old guys, I assume) who were really into those original recordings were unanimous about the Märzendorfer being the way to go. Of course, they meant hunting down that huge box set of vinyl pressings and hoping you didn't get any Frisbees. Release on CD can only be a good thing, IMO. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on November 20, 2018, 10:43:38 AM

Quote from: JBS on November 19, 2018, 12:54:35 PM
Does anyone know if this is worth checking out if it becomes available in the US?
(https://img.hmv.co.jp/image/jacket/800/93/7/4/167.jpg)

From the website:

"Before you ask:

No, we did not manage to find the original tapes if they ever still exist....

Musical Heritage Society was bought by Passionato in 2011, I read and the latter seems to have ceased business a few years ago (I could not find any accurate information on its "disappearance"), hence the sources are good old vinyl :)"

And there was no one at MHS who knew were the tapes were, either (I asked).

Depending on the quality of the transfers, this should be an interesting set for obsessive Haydn collectors. But I'd suggest the Dennis Russell Davies for a first set.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on November 20, 2018, 10:53:13 AM

Quote from: Florestan on November 20, 2018, 12:21:02 AMExcerpt: The evidence here is that Maerzendorfer had Haydn in his bloodstream while Dorati was just doing a professional job.

Despite being a fan of Dorati in general, his Haydn set, with a few exceptions, was a series of rushed run-throughs. They basically did it at a rate of a symphony a week. Listening to it, I had the impression is was not far from sight-reading at times.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on November 20, 2018, 11:17:16 AM

I am only familiar with about a dozen or so of the Dorati recordings and although some fit this description I think they are on average better than that. There are also a few that are very good. His #90 was my favorite until the most recent Rattle with Berlin came around.

Some of Märzendorfer's were available in private transfers or otherwise floating around on the internet. E.g. from "Haydn House" Like with Goberman, Leslie Jones and other somewhat obscure LP recordings, I found that they usually varied wildly both in sound quality and interpretation.

But what certainly is somewhat depressing that the Märzendorfer was so poorly distributed in the ca. 20 years until the 1990s when it would have been competitive with Dorati.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 22, 2018, 08:12:27 AM

I was finally able to get my software talking to the blog site, so I cleaned up some grotesque formatting flaws, and dammit, I just made it prettier! :-[ Even got the permalink to stay the same.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 16, 2018, 06:17:27 PM
You would have thought finishing and staging The Creation would have been enough to keep Haydn amused for the rest of 1798, but no... he turned around and wrote his most famous Mass on top of that! :o I enjoyed looking into the background of this work, since I got to listen to it a lot. It stands up well to that. :)

Desperate times require desperate masses! (https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2018/11/1798_the_music_pt_3.html) :D

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on December 02, 2018, 05:42:01 PM

I just had to share this story. So quite some MANY years ago, I posted here with the question of whether the complete Brilliant set of Scottish and Welsh Songs was worth acquiring. And the answer, all those years ago was a determined maybe. As I remember it, Gurn was enthusiastic about them (and this set), but wasn't sure whether anyone beyond the Haydn nut would really want ALL of them. Well, I have occasionally seen pretty decent deals of $40 or so for the set, but in the back of my mind was always the question of whether I would get $40 worth of enjoyment out of them. So I decided, eventually, that if I could get a great deal on them, say less than $1 per disc (so less than $18), I would snap them up. Surely I could find enough enjoyment for that.

Well, despairing of ever finding them, I did see a disc of Janet Baker singing a selection of Scottish songs (as well as some of Beethoven) on Testament. And at $6, I figured, what the hay, let's at least get a few of them and see what I think. Well, I heard a few of the songs and they seemed ok (quite a mix), but then disaster! The disc was damaged and many tracks simply didn't play. I tried 3 players and all had the problem, so it is a technical problem in the disc and just today I printed the return label (with a heavy heart). Well this evening, as I was finalizing a jpc order (because they sent a 10% off coupon - nice timing!), I noticed the Haydn box was on sale. But not just any sale, a sale of mammoth proportion. After 10% off (keeping in mind that order to the US also remove VAT), the total for the set (excluding postage) came to the miraculous total of...are you ready for it? <drum roll please> ....EUR 9.82!! Or $11.15!!!!

Well, I figured it was a sign, and I didn't need to be told twice. So barring any unfortunate 'in stock' problem with the item, I should relatively soon have this intriguing and long delayed box winging its way to me.

[asin]B001UNPLI2[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 02, 2018, 07:06:17 PM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on December 02, 2018, 05:42:01 PM
I just had to share this story. So quite some MANY years ago, I posted here with the question of whether the complete Brilliant set of Scottish and Welsh Songs was worth acquiring. And the answer, all those years ago was a determined maybe. As I remember it, Gurn was enthusiastic about them (and this set), but wasn't sure whether anyone beyond the Haydn nut would really want ALL of them. Well, I have occasionally seen pretty decent deals of $40 or so for the set, but in the back of my mind was always the question of whether I would get $40 worth of enjoyment out of them. So I decided, eventually, that if I could get a great deal on them, say less than $1 per disc (so less than $18), I would snap them up. Surely I could find enough enjoyment for that.

Well, despairing of ever finding them, I did see a disc of Janet Baker singing a selection of Scottish songs (as well as some of Beethoven) on Testament. And at $6, I figured, what the hay, let's at least get a few of them and see what I think. Well, I heard a few of the songs and they seemed ok (quite a mix), but then disaster! The disc was damaged and many tracks simply didn't play. I tried 3 players and all had the problem, so it is a technical problem in the disc and just today I printed the return label (with a heavy heart). Well this evening, as I was finalizing a jpc order (because they sent a 10% off coupon - nice timing!), I noticed the Haydn box was on sale. But not just any sale, a sale of mammoth proportion. After 10% off (keeping in mind that order to the US also remove VAT), the total for the set (excluding postage) came to the miraculous total of...are you ready for it? <drum roll please> ....EUR 9.82!! Or $11.15!!!!

Well, I figured it was a sign, and I didn't need to be told twice. So barring any unfortunate 'in stock' problem with the item, I should relatively soon have this intriguing and long delayed box winging its way to me.

[asin]B001UNPLI2[/asin]

Ha, that's great! And it IS a sign, a sign that all things come to him who waits. :) Since then I have got several other disks of those songs (the Canzonets usually have a few) and I like them more than ever. (I've even taken to keeping an 'Everyman's Robert Burns' next to my chair ::) ). Hope you are keen on them. I have a couple of very informative background essays, BTW...

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ainsi la nuit on December 06, 2018, 03:55:03 PM

I listened to the nigh-forgotten early oratorio Il ritorno di Tobia for the first time tonight and quite enjoyed it, though it was very long indeed.

What is the general consensus on the work here at GMC? I'd be interested to hear.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 06, 2018, 06:43:09 PM

Quote from: Ainsi la nuit on December 06, 2018, 03:55:03 PM
I listened to the nigh-forgotten early oratorio Il ritorno di Tobia for the first time tonight and quite enjoyed it, though it was very long indeed.

What is the general consensus on the work here at GMC? I'd be interested to hear.

I became a fan of it when I was writing about it: Il ritorno di Tobia (https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/07/1774-the-music-part-4-.html). I also went back through several other 18th century Austro/Italian oratorios by Fux, Caldara etc., and discovered in the process that ALL oratorios of the time were really long! I guess it is an acquired taste, although they didn't have a lot of other amusements to distract them.

If you listened to the Naxos (Spering) recording, you heard the extra arias he added for the later (1784 or 85) performance which are especially nice. You can be consoled by the fact that he also cut out quite a lot of extra verbiage... :D

Welcome to The Haus,

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on December 23, 2018, 08:13:45 AM

Just got the Haydn 2032 newsletter - Antonini and Il Giardino Armonico will soon be performing and recording 6-7-8 along with Mozart's Serenata notturna.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on December 25, 2018, 06:50:33 AM

Quote from: Joseph HaydnOften, when struggling against obstacles of every sort which oppose my labors: often, when the powers of mind and body weakened, and it was difficult to continue the course I had entered on; – a secret voice whispered to me: "there are so few happy and contented peoples here below; grief and sorrow are always their lot; perhaps your labors will once be a source from which the care-worn, or the man burdened with affairs, can derive a few moments rest and refreshment." This was indeed a powerful motive to press onwards, and this is why I now look back with cheerful satisfaction on the labors expended on this art, to which I have devoted so many long years of uninterrupted effort and exertion.

A few monents of rest and refreshment???

JS Bach said as much:

Quote from: JS BachThe aim and final end of all music should be none other than the glory of God and the refreshment of the soul.

Can you imagine Berlioz, Wagner, Schoenberg or Boulez subscribing to that? Only if one substituted "restive" for "rest" and "torment" for "refreshment".

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 25, 2018, 07:09:03 AM

Quote from: Florestan on December 25, 2018, 06:50:33 AM
A few monents of rest and refreshment???

JS Bach said as much:

Can you imagine Berlioz, Wagner, Schoenberg or Boulez subscribing to that? Only if one substituted "restive" for "rest" and "torment" for "refreshment".

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

'Tis the season

https://youtu.be/0jYkcJ_giZ0 (https://youtu.be/0jYkcJ_giZ0)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 05, 2019, 08:42:07 AM

I doubt Haydn had a few moments for rest and refreshment in 1799! I have scratched the surface of the year this time, but plenty left to keep an old man busy (yes, me & Haydn both! :D ). I called this one 'Alone at the top' because on this, the 50th anniversary of his being a composer, that is exactly where he is, at the pinnacle of his career.

A monster year! (https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2019/01/1799-the-year-part-1-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 05, 2019, 09:54:05 AM

Delightful & informative, as always, O Gurn

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 05, 2019, 09:58:48 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 05, 2019, 09:54:05 AM
Delightful & informative, as always, O Gurn

Thanks, Dr. H.. Being Haydn's age now, I can't imagine taking on that work load! :o :o

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on January 05, 2019, 10:06:00 AM

Yes indeed, Gurn.

Personally, even if you ignore everything else he wrote, from symphony #82 on he wrote 23 symphonies, each one is an undisputed masterpiece (taking nothing away from his earlier works). I don't know of anyone who has had such a run composing.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 05, 2019, 10:07:54 AM

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on January 05, 2019, 10:06:00 AM
even if you ignore everything else he wrote, from symphony #82 on he wrote 23 symphonies, each one is an undisputed masterpiece (taking nothing away from his earlier works). I don't know of anyone who has had such a run composing.

I know, but i'll shush.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on January 05, 2019, 10:08:41 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 05, 2019, 10:07:54 AM
I know, but i'll shush.

Spill the beans please !

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 05, 2019, 10:18:51 AM

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on January 05, 2019, 10:08:41 AM
Spill the beans please !

Schubert! His final year is an uninterrupted chain of one masterpiece after another. If you count them they might be well over 23.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 05, 2019, 10:22:31 AM

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on January 05, 2019, 10:06:00 AM
Yes indeed, Gurn.

Personally, even if you ignore everything else he wrote, from symphony #82 on he wrote 23 symphonies, each one is an undisputed masterpiece (taking nothing away from his earlier works). I don't know of anyone who has had such a run composing.

And the symphonies were only a moderate percentage of his output. Taking that time frame, from Symphony 82 on, you have all the quartets from Opus 50 to 77 (& 103), the keyboard trios from 18-45, the keyboard sonatas from 57-62, the last 6 masses, the trumpet concerto, a crackin' good opera and numerous songs and smaller works of very high quality. It really is almost freakish how that worked... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 05, 2019, 10:24:14 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 05, 2019, 10:18:51 AM
Schubert! His final year is an uninterrupted chain of one masterpiece after another. If you count them they might be well over 23.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 05, 2019, 10:22:31 AM
And the symphonies were only a moderate percentage of his output. Taking that time frame, from Symphony 82 on, you have all the quartets from Opus 50 to 77 (& 103), the keyboard trios from 18-45, the keyboard sonatas from 57-62, the last 6 masses, the trumpet concerto, a crackin' good opera and numerous songs and smaller works of very high quality. It really is almost freakish how that worked... :-\

Cross-posted. I love Schubert's music too, but there is no real comparison... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 05, 2019, 10:40:50 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 05, 2019, 10:24:14 AM
Cross-posted. I love Schubert's music too, but there is no real comparison... :)

8)

I won't go any further in consideration of this:

QuoteBeing Haydn's age now

:P >:D :laugh:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 05, 2019, 11:49:18 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 05, 2019, 10:40:50 AM
I won't go any further in consideration of this:

:P >:D :laugh:

He was 67 that year. I'm 67. Of course, one day I will be 286 also... :-\ :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 06, 2019, 08:23:12 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 05, 2019, 11:49:18 AM
He was 67 that year. I'm 67. Of course, one day I will be 286 also... :-\ :D

8)

Well, if you make a book out of your Haydn's essays I'm sure in 286 years it'll be a classic. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 06, 2019, 01:19:50 PM

Quote from: Florestan on January 06, 2019, 08:23:12 AM
Well, if you make a book out of your Haydn's essays I'm sure in 286 years it'll be a classic. 8)

Ah, immortality, just what I always wanted! :D ;D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on January 06, 2019, 04:03:55 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 05, 2019, 08:42:07 AM
I doubt Haydn had a few moments for rest and refreshment in 1799! I have scratched the surface of the year this time, but plenty left to keep an old man busy (yes, me & Haydn both! :D ). I called this one 'Alone at the top' because on this, the 50th anniversary of his being a composer, that is exactly where he is, at the pinnacle of his career.

A monster year! (https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2019/01/1799-the-year-part-1-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Thanks again for this!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 06, 2019, 04:24:01 PM

Quote from: JBS on January 06, 2019, 04:03:55 PM
Thanks again for this!

Delighted you had an opportunity to read it. Thank you!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: schnittkease on January 06, 2019, 06:30:10 PM

Great read! I find that AMZ and other contemporaneous journals are sorely underrated (at least by laymen like me) in the amount of valuable information they can bring to light; when I compile composer worklists for IMSLP I always make sure to sift through these journals (https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Zeitschriften_(Musik)) -- you never know what you can find.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 06, 2019, 06:42:23 PM

Quote from: schnittkease on January 06, 2019, 06:30:10 PM
Great read! I find that AMZ and other contemporaneous journals are sorely underrated (at least by laymen like me) in the amount of valuable information they can bring to light; when I compile composer worklists for IMSLP I always make sure to sift through these journals (https://de.wikisource.org/wiki/Zeitschriften_(Musik)) -- you never know what you can find.

Thank you.

Problem for me is I can't read German. For a Haydn researcher this is a crucial shortcoming! But the snippets I get here and there are always fascinating in that they put some meat on the bones of an otherwise fairly dry statement of facts. If only they had existed 40 years earlier... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on January 07, 2019, 12:35:31 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 06, 2019, 06:42:23 PM
Thank you.

Problem for me is I can't read German. For a Haydn researcher this is a crucial shortcoming! But the snippets I get here and there are always fascinating in that they put some meat on the bones of an otherwise fairly dry statement of facts. If only they had existed 40 years earlier... :)

8)

No harm in starting to learn. Try Duolingo.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 07, 2019, 01:29:39 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 05, 2019, 08:42:07 AM
I doubt Haydn had a few moments for rest and refreshment in 1799! I have scratched the surface of the year this time, but plenty left to keep an old man busy (yes, me & Haydn both! :D ). I called this one 'Alone at the top' because on this, the 50th anniversary of his being a composer, that is exactly where he is, at the pinnacle of his career.

A monster year! (https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2019/01/1799-the-year-part-1-.html)

Thanks,
8)

QuoteBut great interest also lies in the presentation of context, as in this (anonymous) letter which was appended to the article containing van Swieten's letter:

...About the work itself, we have nothing to add except that all the opinions of connoisseurs and amateurs that have arrived here bear out [Swieten's] opinion; they describe the work as Haydn's greatest, most sublime and most perfect — that means, surely, the greatest, most sublime and most perfect of the newest period of music? [snip] ...and finally it can suggest once more that Germany still leaves the most perfect works of its greatest artists to the foreigners and at best can receive such works from them ex gratia [italics mine]. And to give an idea of the plan of the whole, we [will] include as a supplement to the next issue the German text by Freiherr van Swieten.

Back in ca. 1775, we saw how Haydn was considered a 'foreigner' by the Viennese because he came from the countryside in or near Hungary. And even now, having achieved international fame and the pride of Austria, Haydn was still considered a foreigner. You may think I am tossing this in gratuitously, but it is actually there as something to ponder for the many of you who still believe 'German' and 'Austrian' are the same thing. Apparently the commonality of language wasn't quite enough to pull that trick off, even in 1799.

If I may, I'm wondering if there is some confusion that's arisen here. Sounds to me as though the excerpt you cite very MUCH contents that Haydn is in fact German. And that it's a shame for a German place (like Vienna) to leave it to foreigners (England?? Except Die Schoepfung was premiered in Vienna, after all, so that bit is unclear) to perform the greatest German works.

Haydn surely was not a foreigner in Vienna... just not a native Viennese (despite his growing up in Vienna [8-25?]). (At that point, I believe, he was at liberty to live in Vienna - something that Mozart never officially was; you would know better.) In any case, it is the notion that you content that "German" and "Austrian" are not the same thing that I would like to add some nuance to. Different, of course, in that they didn't mean the same thing. But not different in the sense that they didn't describe the same people. German was the culture -- and every German-speaking Austrian was German in that sense. And every Salzburgian and so forth. German[y], the nation, didn't exist, after all. The deeply felt Germanness of a large swath of Austrians (and the subsequent loss of that identity after WWI) is something that held over for a long time... Notably, Vienna's Konzerthaus (built in 1913; the height of the rule of Franz Joseph I of Austria), has written unto its facade: "Honor Your German Masters". Apart from being a Wagner quote, that was a perfectly serious display of how the Viennese considered themselves. Austrian by localized politics, but German in any greater (cultural) sense. (And even "Austria" as a name for the country we now know as Austria didn't start until 1915. (Previously it had been "Cisleithanien" or more cumbersomely "Die im Reichsrathe vertretenen Königreiche und Länder" -- although since 1867, all citizes of these countries had a right to "Austrian Citizenship". On Facebook, the country/culture/political body status would have been given as: "It's complicated".

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 07, 2019, 06:04:56 AM

I'm with Gurn on this: Austria and Germany at the time were two different concepts, not only politically, religiously and culturally, but also linguistically: imagine an echt-Austrian peasant met an echt-Prussian peasant in 1820. (Both countries claimed to true Germanness). Would they have understood each other's talk? AfaIk, and please correctly me if I'm wrong, not very much (similar perhaps to a Neapolitan peasant meeting a Milanese one around the same time --- with the marked difference that the Italians still shared the same religion)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 07, 2019, 06:14:59 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 07, 2019, 06:04:56 AM
I'm with Gurn on this: Austria and Germany at the time were two different concepts, not only politically, religiously and culturally, but also linguistically: imagine an echt-Austrian peasant born in 1800 (not even 1732, mind you!) met an echt-Prussian peasant in 1820. (Both countries claimed to true Germanness). Would they have understood each other's talk? AfaIk, and please correct me if I'm wrong, not very much (similar perhaps to a Neapolitan peasant meeting a Milanese one around the same time --- with the marked difference that the Italians still shared the same religion)

Peasant-communication notwithstanding, that is not correct. Austria wasn't so much a concept as it was a small part of a larger Empire ("Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation") that consider itself German -- German being the umbrella term for a culture to which Austria and many other parts unequivocally belonged.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 07, 2019, 06:25:40 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 07, 2019, 06:14:59 AM
Peasant-communication notwithstanding

I beg to differ. What defines a Volk is the customs, religion, culture and language of the majority of that Volk. If in different parts of the pretended Volkstum they are different, then there is actually no Volkstum. ;D

QuoteAustria wasn't so much a concept as it was a small part of a larger Empire ("Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation") that consider itself German -- German being the umbrella term for a culture to which Austria and many other parts unequivocally belonged.

That is not correct. For centuries, "Austria" was and embodied the "Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation"; Prussia proper was indeed a small --- and until the 18th century, quite insignificant --- part of the Empire (even the authenticity of their Germanness is highly questionable, since it was an area where Slavic presence was heavily felt and documented). It's only in the 19th century, and especially in its second half, that Prussia gained the technical, political and miitary upper-hand to the point of identifying herself only with Germany, in competition with, and contrast to, the Austrian Empire.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 07, 2019, 06:29:58 AM

To more fully explain my own understanding of the situation: there was no Germany per se at the time, there was Austria, a part of the HRE, and there was Prussia, and there were lots of small independent states, many (most) of whom spoke German. They did have a common language (if you want to call Viennese 'German'!), but culturally they seem to have been quite different.

When Haydn tried to join the Tonkünstler-Societät (Musicians' Society) in 1778, after he had composed Il ritorno di Tobia for them in 1774-5, when he applied for membership, he was asked to pay 368 gulden as an admission fee because he was a foreigner. (Landon volume 2). So that's why I mentioned that particular episode in his life. In 1796 when he returned from London the second time, Wranitzky and Salieri sent him a hugely apologetic letter for past mistreatment, and invited him to be a member now, waiving the admission fee.

The way I read the letter in the AMZ, the (anonymous) writer was pleased that the oratorio was so good, but disappointed that it wasn't written in Prussia by a German composer there. I may have misunderstood, I am just explaining that's what I did understand. There are several other instances one could cite (I have done a few in various essays) where the Prussians were culturally critical of the Austrians, and Haydn in particular, using him as a symbol of all that was wrong with the southerners. Once again, though, after London he was suddenly persona grata.

I think I have a little chip on my shoulder about this, because in many discussions I have had with music-lovers over the years, whenever I have tried to differentiate Austrian music from German, I have been essentially rebuffed. I think one could take the Congress of Vienna, or better yet, 1848, as a dividing line between 2 different countries/cultures followed by a blending.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 07, 2019, 06:32:10 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 07, 2019, 06:25:40 AM
I beg to differ. What defines a Volk is the customs, religion, culture and language of the majority of that Volk. If in different parts of the pretended Volkstum they are different, then there is actually no Volkstum. ;D

That is not correct. For centuries, "Austria" was and embodied the "Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nation"; Prussia proper was indeed a small --- and until the 18th century, quite insignificant --- part of the Empire (even the authenticity of their Germanness is highly questionable, since it was an area where Slavic presence was heavily felt and documented). It's only in the second half of the 19th century that Prussia gained the technical, political and miitary upper-hand to the point of identifying herself only with Germany, in competition with, and contrast to, the Austrian Empire.

That is - in fact - not what defined "Germany" throughout its history. As simple as that. And it certainly did not any longer apply after the Luther Bible and printing press did much to make the German language more cohesive among those who mattered. The concept of a "German people", you will agree, precedes the country Germany by almost 1000 years.

I'm not sure how you got on the topic of Prussia when we are discussing the Germanness of Austria. If anything, you are making my point by emphasising that the idea of "German" back then had much less to do with a nation (or Prussia, which sort-of grew into the role, when the "Kleindeutsche Loesung" was favored in the making of the German Empire, as opposed to the "Grossdeutsche Loesung" that would have included the Austrians (with or without their non-German brethren) as the dominant force of the new German empire. When Hitler came to power, the call throughout Austria was not for nothing "HEIM ins [Deutsche] Reich". I'm merely trying to establish what should be nearly self-evident... that Austrians always considered themselves as Germans and that the notion that they are separate from Germans (because Germany is now a nation, not just a culture and a people) is only a few decades - not even a century - old.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 07, 2019, 06:34:08 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 07, 2019, 06:29:58 AM

The way I read the letter in the AMZ, the (anonymous) writer was pleased that the oratorio was so good, but disappointed that it wasn't written in Prussia by a German composer there. I may have misunderstood, I am just explaining that's what I did understand. There are several other instances one could cite (I have done a few in various essays) where the Prussians were culturally critical of the Austrians, and Haydn in particular, using him as a symbol of all that was wrong with the southerners. Once again, though, after London he was suddenly persona grata.
8)

Without trying to offend - Yes, I think you did misunderstand the letter. You don't happen to have the German original around? That might clarify it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 07, 2019, 06:34:58 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 07, 2019, 06:29:58 AM
I think I have a little chip on my shoulder about this, because in many discussions I have had with music-lovers over the years, whenever I have tried to differentiate Austrian music from German, I have been essentially rebuffed. I think one could take the Congress of Vienna, or better yet, 1848, as a dividing line between 2 different countries/cultures followed by a blending.

8)

Certainly not the Congress of Vienna, where the Austrian-to-the-boots Metternich called the tune. 1848 is more like an overture; the real turning point was 1866 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austro-Prussian_War (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austro-Prussian_War))

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 07, 2019, 06:44:39 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 07, 2019, 06:32:10 AM
The concept of a "German people", you will agree, precedes the country Germany by almost 1000 years.

I do agree. My only question is, what did people from different part of the Holy Roman Empire of German Nation have in common? Specifically, what did people in Austria ca. 1800 had in common with people in Prussia ca. 1800? And by people I mean people as in common folks, people in the streets, John and Janet Doe in their, say, Viennese or Berliner guise.

QuoteAustrians always considered themselves as Germans and that the notion that they are separate from Germans (because Germany is now a nation, not just a culture and a people) is only a few decades - not even a century - old.

If this is true then why did Austrians not enthusiastically and en masse push for joining the newly-proclaimed German Republic after WWI? Why do they not do it today?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 07, 2019, 06:49:18 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 07, 2019, 06:34:08 AM
Without trying to offend - Yes, I think you did misunderstand the letter. You don't happen to have the German original around? That might clarify it.

No, just Landon's translation (I scanned that quote out of his book so there is no mistyping or anything). But damned anonymous letters leave a lot to be desired. Was it written by a Leipziger? A Viennese? It would make a world of difference to know that. I took it to be by a Prussian because I have never read anything by a Viennese from this period which calls any country 'Germany', even though it is understood to be in the sense of cultural pan-Germany. It is a Prussian thing. If that is indeed the case, then calling Haydn a foreigner would be a natural thing (although frightfully provincial). If it was a Viennese, it would be even more provincial and a throwback to the Joseph II days when Eisenstadt was considered 'outlands'.

When I included that I was curious, it is why I did it. So it is no problem for me to hear differing opinions. Lots of people, yourselves included, know a lot more about this than I do. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 07, 2019, 06:53:32 AM

I guess a lot of confusion and misunderstanding stems from equating "people" with "nation" --- a disease which is French in origin but manifested itself most dangerously in post-1870, pre-1945 Germany.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 07, 2019, 06:55:11 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 07, 2019, 06:44:39 AM
I do agree. My only question is, what did people from different part of the Holy Roman Empire of German Nation have in common? Specifically, what did people in Austria ca. 1800 had in common with people in Prussia ca. 1800? And by people I mean people as in common folks, people in the streets, John and Janet Doe in their, say, Viennese or Berliner guise.

Quote
If this is true then why did Austrians not enthusiastically and en masse push for joining the newly-proclaimed German Republic after WWI? Why do they not do it today?

On the latter point, I will suggest that Georges "The Tiger" Clémenceau, would have disapproved. The Versailles Treat did not allow for this. Hitler was the first opportunity and they took it, gently encouraged by the tips of machine guns, where hesitance was to be found.

On the first: The idea of Germanness, the language, the literature, the music, the history. The Luther Bible. (Which wasn't a "Lutheran bible"; simply a bible in the vulgate.) More people were proud of Lessing and Goethe than read them. Hans Sachs, Johann Fischart, shared stories like D. Johann Fausten and Till Eulenspiegel... Grimmelshausen & Simplicissimus, Leibnitz... the universities... oh my, the list is long.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 07, 2019, 06:56:30 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 07, 2019, 06:49:18 AM
No, just Landon's translation (I scanned that quote out of his book so there is no mistyping or anything). But damned anonymous letters leave a lot to be desired. Was it written by a Leipziger? A Viennese? It would make a world of difference to know that. I took it to be by a Prussian because I have never read anything by a Viennese from this period which calls any country 'Germany', even though it is understood to be in the sense of cultural pan-Germany. It is a Prussian thing. If that is indeed the case, then calling Haydn a foreigner would be a natural thing (although frightfully provincial). If it was a Viennese, it would be even more provincial and a throwback to the Joseph II days when Eisenstadt was considered 'outlands'.

When I included that I was curious, it is why I did it. So it is no problem for me to hear differing opinions. Lots of people, yourselves included, know a lot more about this than I do. :)

8)

As I am trying to point out, the use of using "German" was not in the least a Prussian thing. It was a pan-German thing. It had NOTHING to do with nation.

The critique sounds like Swieten himself - or someone close to him - actually. Trying to rile against his backwards fellow countrymen for ONCE AGAIN missing greatness that's under their noses only because it ~~shares their own nationality~~ is too close to home ... and foreign nations having to pick up the slack. The author is trying to shame his people into giving Haydn his due. It could have been written in Vienna in 2018, come to think of it, so typical is it of this place.

Vienna has this thing where anything that comes from within isn't deemed worth much until appreciated abroad (i.e. Concentus Musicus & Harnoncourt who, despite all his connections, didn't really attain wider admiration at home until he was well admired abroad). The other thing is that something that's big in Vienna and anything the Viennese love is considered naturally GREAT at which point they totally stop caring about anything that might happen anywhere else... deeming themselves sufficient unto their own. Hence the nasty and totally accurate snide remark of someone being "world famous in Vienna".

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 07, 2019, 06:59:43 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 07, 2019, 06:56:30 AM
As I am trying to point out, the use of using "German" was not in the least a Prussian thing. It was a pan-German thing. It had NOTHING to do with nation.

The critique sounds like Swieten himself - or someone close to him - actually. Trying to rile against his backwards fellow countrymen for ONCE AGAIN missing greatness that's under their noses only because it shares their own nationality ... and foreign nations having to pick up the slack. The author is trying to shame his people into giving Haydn his due. It could have been written in Vienna in 2018, come to think of it, so typical is it of this place.

Which may well be the crux of the misunderstanding... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 07, 2019, 07:04:19 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 07, 2019, 06:55:11 AM
On the latter point, I will suggest that Georges "The Tiger" Clémenceau, would have disapproved. The Versailles Treat did not allow for this. Hitler was the first opportunity and they took it, gently encouraged by the tips of machine guns, where hesitance was to be found.

Gently encouraged... well said. ;D

Quote
On the first: The idea of Germanness, the language, the literature, the music, the history. The Luther Bible. (Which wasn't a "Lutheran bible"; simply a bible in the vulgate.) More people were proud of Lessing and Goethe than read them. Hans Sachs, Johann Fischart, shared stories like D. Johann Fausten and Till Eulenspiegel... Grimmelshausen & Simplicissimus, Leibnitz... the universities... oh my, the list is long.

Look, I don't claim there was not a consciousness of Germanness among educated elites --- on the contrary, there were several competing ones, out of which the Austrian and the Prussian emerged as the only ones in the late 19th century and which Prussia managed to win militarily and, most importantly, ideologically. But among commoners I doubt it was such a clear-cut case.

Let's forget for a moment Austria and Prussia. How about Switzerland? Do a good part of them not speak German? Yet, not even Hitlker dared to Anschluss them. And: can you think of a more polar opposition than between Thomas Mann and Hermann Hesse?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 07, 2019, 07:05:46 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 07, 2019, 06:56:30 AM
The critique sounds like Swieten himself - or someone close to him - actually. Trying to rile against his backwards fellow countrymen for ONCE AGAIN missing greatness that's under their noses only because it shares their own nationality ... and foreign nations having to pick up the slack. The author is trying to shame his people into giving Haydn his due. It could have been written in Vienna in 2018, come to think of it, so typical is it of this place.

Interesting idea. Certainly the attitude is reflective of Swieten's. He was a real nudge when it came to advancing the country culturally. I'll see what else I can find out about it. There is a ton of backstory, mostly untold. But I find new sources all the time (because I look for them all the time!), and I could get lucky here.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 07, 2019, 07:09:16 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 07, 2019, 06:59:43 AM
Which may well be the crux of the misunderstanding... :-\

8)

I agree. I might be wrong but it's my understanding that "Austria" has always been much more cosmopolitan than "Prussia"; heck, they even adopted Beethoven and Brahms as their own --- which led to the famous "German" bon mot that the Austrians have stolen Beethoven from Germans and gave them Hitler instead...

...which all means that history is much more complicated than we might ever think. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 07, 2019, 07:13:33 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 07, 2019, 07:09:16 AM
I agree. I might be wrong but it's my understanding that "Austria" has always been much more cosmopolitan than "Prussia"; heck, they even adopted Beethoven and Brahms as their own --- which led to the famous "German" bon mot that the Austrians have stolen Beethoven from Germans and gave them Hitler instead...

...which all means that history is much more complicated than we might ever think. :D

Prussia was a little backwater for most of its history -- while the Austro-Hungarian Empire was the empire in which the sun never set. Vienna was FAR more cosmopolitan; Berlin was the sticks until, oh... various Freddies tried to change that. And even then it took until about 1900-1920 for Berlin to seriously challenge Vienna as a city of any reputation or notoriety. (Berlin was far more liberal and offered a good foil for the grimy-creative-yet-stifling empirial capital.) We would be making a mistake in looking only at this apparent duopoly of Prussia-vs-"Kakanien" in talking about Germanness. The small states out West, the consensus-building politics, the particular brand of "Rhine capitalism" and the society that grew out of those towns and duchies and principalities is just as important... even if they didn't make any momentous decisions as political actors.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 07, 2019, 07:16:21 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 07, 2019, 07:13:33 AM
Prussia was a little backwater for most of its history -- while the Austro-Hungarian Empire was the empire in which the sun never set. Vienna was FAR more cosmopolitan; Berlin was the sticks until, oh... various Freddies tried to change that. We would be making a mistake in looking only at this apparent duopoly of Prussia-vs-"Kakanien" in talking about Germanness. The small states out West, the consensus-building politics, the particular brand of "Rhine capitalism" and the society that grew out of those towns and duchies and principalities is just as important... even if they didn't make any momentous decisions as political actors.

Oh, yes, I certainly agree. Speaking of music, would you agree that Weimar during Liszt's Kapellmeister years was more important than both Vienna and Berlin back then? :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 07, 2019, 07:17:58 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 07, 2019, 07:13:33 AM
Prussia was a little backwater for most of its history -- while the Austro-Hungarian Empire was the empire in which the sun never set. Vienna was FAR more cosmopolitan; Berlin was the sticks until, oh... various Freddies tried to change that. And even then it took until about 1900-1920 for Berlin to seriously challenge Vienna as a city of any reputation or notoriety. (Berlin was far more liberal and offered a good foil for the grimy-creative-yet-stifling empirial capital.) We would be making a mistake in looking only at this apparent duopoly of Prussia-vs-"Kakanien" in talking about Germanness. The small states out West, the consensus-building politics, the particular brand of "Rhine capitalism" and the society that grew out of those towns and duchies and principalities is just as important... even if they didn't make any momentous decisions as political actors.

But the question is, how far back did those attitudes extend? For my purposes, nothing that happened after 1800 has happened yet, so I am looking to take a snapshot in time. My interest extends into the 19th century, but Haydn's only extends as fr as getting subscribers for his Creation publication... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 07, 2019, 07:21:48 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 07, 2019, 07:16:21 AM
Oh, yes, I certainly agree. Speaking of music, would you agree that Weimar during Liszt's Kapellmeister years was more important than both Vienna and Berlin back then? :D

No - not more important than the imperial capital. But more important -- as a cultural capital decidedly so -- than Berlin. Mainly because of Goethe... and then Liszt, as you say.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 07, 2019, 07:29:58 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 07, 2019, 07:21:48 AM
No - not more important than the imperial capital.

A-hah! :P >:D

Quote
But more important -- as a cultural capital decidedly so -- than Berlin. Mainly because of Goethe... and then Liszt, as you say.

Liszt it was, decidedly.

But really, I'm really interested in your thoughts about Thomas Mann and Hermann Hesse. I see them as polar opposites, at least apparently. The former is the poet of the bourgeois life (much like the Austrian Adalbert Stifter), the latter the poet of the bohemian life (much like the Prussian von Eichendorff) --- talk about coincidentia oppositorum. :laugh: What's your take on them?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 07, 2019, 07:38:39 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 07, 2019, 07:29:58 AM
But really, I'm really interested in your thoughts about Thomas Mann and Hermann Hesse. I see them as polar opposites, at least apparently. The former is the poet of the bourgeois life (much like the Austrian Adalbert Stifter), the latter the poet of the bohemian life (much like the Prussian von Eichendorff) --- talk about coincidentia oppositorum. :laugh: What's your take on them?

I do not see them as that different, although the general characterization does seem to fit. (Stifter is unique altogether; himself anything but bourgeois, he created these mastubatory Ersatz-erotic fantasies of the absolutely perfectly admirable do-gooderish, noble lives of self-betterment, honesty, earnestness... very little to do with Mann or anyone else, for that matter. Mind you, I love reading Stifter and have everything by him and read most everything except his Wittiko. There's a major masochist streak in my reading him, though, and I like to torture those near me by reading Stifter out loud to them. And after intensive reading of Stifter, I start talking like Stifter writes. ;D)

Anway, I recommend reading the letters between Mann and Hesse, which are illuminating. I think I, erm, liberated my copy from my college library (I hope the statute of limitations has passed on that; it had never even once been checked out... which was my rationalization at the time; I do feel bad about it.) Fascinating. It was Mann, of course, who lobbied the hardest to get Hesse the Nobel Prize. It was a bit like Strauss-Mahler ... except Mann was (even) more 'powerful', relative to Hesse and in the literary world, than Strauss was to Mahler. Oh, and Hesse was not a neurotic wreck who questioned everything that Mann said and might be a barb. For all his "Glasperlenspiel", interest in India, sinology, and Steppenwolf, I don't think of Hesse as particularly bohemian. His readers - post 1950 - might be, though.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 07, 2019, 07:41:19 AM

One statement I strongly disagree with is the idea that 'Austrians always considered themselves Germans'. But perhaps it's a question of interpretation as I read this as meaning they always wanted to be united in one country and that is simply not the case despite similarities brought up already. But I think this is a bit beyond Haydn, and I've not revised this message twice because you guys keep posting before I can! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 07, 2019, 07:43:02 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 07, 2019, 07:38:39 AM
I do not see them as that different, although the general characterization does seem to fit. (Stifter is unique altogether; himself anything but bourgeois, he created these mastubatory Ersatz-erotic fantasies of the absolutely perfectly admirable do-gooderish, noble lives of self-betterment, honesty, earnestness... very little to do with Mann or anyone else, for that matter. Mind you, I love reading Stifter and have everything by him and read most everything except his Wittiko. There's a major masochist streak in my reading him, though, and I like to torture those near me by reading Stifter out loud to them. And after intensive reading of Stifter, I start talking like Stifter writes. ;D)

Anway, I recommend reading the letters between Mann and Hesse, which are illuminating. I think I, erm, liberated my copy from my college library (I hope the statute of limitations has passed on that; it had never even once been checked out... which was my rationalization at the time; I do feel bad about it.) Fascinating. It was Mann, of course, who lobbied the hardest to get Hesse the Nobel Prize. It was a bit like Strauss-Mahler ... except Mann was (even) more 'powerful', relative to Hesse and in the literary world, than Strauss was to Mahler. Oh, and Hesse was not a neurotic wreck who questioned everything that Mann said and might be a barb. For all his "Glasperlenspiel", interest in India, sinology, and Steppenwolf, I don't think of Hesse as particularly bohemian. His readers - post 1950 - might be, though.

Thanks a lot, lots of food for thought here. I'll take my time absorbing it and then come back with a reply. Please be patient. :) It'll probably come as a PM since it is way off topic here.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 07, 2019, 07:47:01 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 07, 2019, 07:41:19 AM
One statement I strongly disagree with is the idea that 'Austrians always considered themselves Germans'. But perhaps it's a question of interpretation as I read this as meaning they always wanted to be united in one country and that is simply not the case despite similarities brought up already. But I think this is a bit beyond Haydn, and I've not revised this message twice because you guys keep posting before I can! :)

There was no "Germany" the country to which they could have belonged for feeling German. Only now is it awkward for them to think themselves of as German, because for the last 100+ years there's been a country with the same name as the culture. "German" had, for the longest time (until less than 100 years ago, as the Vienna Konzerthaus statement on its facade shows), not meant the nation we now think of.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/Konzerthaus_110606.jpg)

Built by the K&K architects' par excellence... not by some immigrants from Berlin, btw. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 07, 2019, 07:50:17 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on January 07, 2019, 07:47:01 AM
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/60/Konzerthaus_110606.jpg)

Built by the K&K architects' par excellence... not by some immigrants from Berlin, btw. ;D

Hey, you begin to sound like Thielemann defending Pegida... >:D :P 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on January 07, 2019, 08:00:39 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 07, 2019, 07:50:17 AM
Hey, you begin to sound like Thielemann defending Pegida... >:D :P 8)

First of all: No; for all the smileys in the world, one has nothing to do with the other. At all.

Secondly:...something which he was right to do [this answer assumes you know the wording he used], that I wish I had heard from more (classical liberal) politicians -- and every liberty and freedom loving person would do well to heed his advice, too! When the brown wave of the great unwashed, those who will happily trade security and self-esteem for those freedoms we cherish, comes our way, we will need EVERY ally we can get to withstand the tide. And we can ill afford to lump inherently salvageable, perhaps temporarily misguided or disgruntled conservatives in with the worst of the worst. I've said so much (in writing, I believe) 20 years ago (when the first wave of Pim Fortuyn and J.M.Le Pen and Gianfranco Fini and Joerg Haider et al. came to the fore). It's all coming true now. And where it was political convenience that brushed actual (however illegitimate; though also some legitimate) concerns of a right-leaning population aside, now it is political righteousness. I'm not looking forward to suffer the illiberal consequences because some ironcially-so-called liberals suppressed the necessary dialogue with the disgruntled until it was too late. But now we are really off topic. My apologies.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on January 07, 2019, 10:52:32 AM

Although the Prussian - Austrian opposition existed in Haydn's time (e.g. in the Silesian wars) it was not comparable to the 19th century. Hardly anybody would have tried to think of "German" in opposition to either.
German as cultural identy could not be put against Austrian cultural identity but against French or Italian. As can easily be seen from Mozart's letters and similar writings. The emperor Joseph wanted to establish a German opera (i.e. German language by "German" (who could be Austrian, Bohemian, whatever) as opposed to the dominating Italian opera (the best of which were composed also by the German/Austrian Mozart).

Of course this is not to deny that there were lots of differences in local culture. But again there was no local German culture, only local cultures of the different German language regions, duchies, kingdoms, free cities etc. of the Holy Roman Empire. With the most important difference from the late 16th century on that most of the North was Lutheran/Protestant and the South remained Catholic. The "high culture" was mostly transcending these local differences and could, as said above, be contrasted with Italian culture (which itself was not homogeneous, of course, but homogeneous enough to be as a whole in contrast with e.g. German music).

And while the Hapsburg dynasty dominated the HRE for its last 400 years or so by providing the Emperors, this does not mean that "Austria" dominated all of the HRE.
It was not at all centralized. The emperor was residing for years in Prague around 1600. The coronation usually took place in Frankfurt. The "everlasting" Reichstag was in Regensburg. The Reichskammergericht was in the 18th century in Wetzlar (small city about 60 kilometers north of Frankfurt) where the young Goethe worked as a law clerk when he wrote Werther.

All this changed obviously after 1806 with the Fall of the old HRE and the re-shuffling of Europe. So in the mid-late 19th century there would be a more meaningful difference between Prussian-dominated "German" (although of course before 1871 there were only Prussia and Saxony and Bavaria etc. and culturally Prussia was too backwards to ever really dominate regions with a much older and stronger local culture) and Austrian culture.
Still, the "north German" Brahms had no problems at all establishing himself in Vienna, the Saxon Wagner in Bavarian Munich etc.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on January 07, 2019, 12:07:15 PM

Quote from: Florestan on January 07, 2019, 06:04:56 AM
Austria and Germany at the time were two different concepts, not only politically, religiously and culturally, but also linguistically: imagine an echt-Austrian peasant met an echt-Prussian peasant in 1820. (Both countries claimed to true Germanness). Would they have understood each other's talk? AfaIk, and please correctly me if I'm wrong, not very much (similar perhaps to a Neapolitan peasant meeting a Milanese one around the same time --- with the marked difference that the Italians still shared the same religion)

Ahem. People from the opposite ends of Germany (as in, the modern country) would still today, if they both spoke in their dialect rather than consciously switching to 'standard' German, have considerable difficulty understanding each other. You're not describing some kind of criterion that demonstrates the inherit rightness of drawing a dividing line between German peoples at a particular point so that there are "Austrians" on one side of the line, you're just describing the way any language dialect continuum works if you bring together people from opposite ends of the continuum.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 07, 2019, 12:31:53 PM

Quote from: Madiel on January 07, 2019, 12:07:15 PM
Ahem. People from the opposite ends of Germany (as in, the modern country) would still today, if they both spoke in their dialect rather than consciously switching to 'standard' German, have considerable difficulty understanding each other. You're not describing some kind of criterion that demonstrates the inherit rightness of drawing a dividing line between German peoples at a particular point so that there are "Austrians" on one side of the line, you're just describing the way any language dialect continuum works if you bring together people from opposite ends of the continuum.

Why, of course --- as in Las Españas --- it's right there in Cervantes's Don Quijote for anyone to read it in plain Spanish original or English / Romanian / whatever translation --- a crime in The Kingdom of Castilla was not the same as one in The Kingdom of Aragon --- so much for any unified Spain... :laugh:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on January 07, 2019, 01:13:37 PM

Well if you're going to bring up Spain, Catalonia is the region to really look at. Try telling a Catalan separatist that they speak "Spanish" and see what happens.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 07, 2019, 01:20:05 PM

Quote from: Madiel on January 07, 2019, 01:13:37 PM
Well if you're going to bring up Spain, Catalonia is the region to really look at. Try telling a Catalan separatist that they speak "Spanish" and see what happens.

I happen to have an aunt married to a Spanish (ie, non Catalan-born) husband. Don't ever get me started on it. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 13, 2019, 05:20:34 PM

In reply to those who have asked me for book recommendations, here is a new blog page with a few more, specifically about Haydn in England (https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/building-a-library-part-4.html). Of course, a lot of info comes out of the big, general purpose books, but these are nice and informative, and were a great help when I was doing that part of his bio.

Also, my latest post, more of a TTT than anything else! :D

A monster year! (https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2019/01/1799-the-year-part-1-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: schnittkease on January 21, 2019, 11:58:07 AM

How highly would you guys rate the London String Quartet's Op. 33? Especially when compared to Quatuor Mosaïques, is it a must-buy?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 21, 2019, 12:14:07 PM

Quote from: schnittkease on January 21, 2019, 11:58:07 AM
How highly would you guys rate the London String Quartet's Op. 33? Especially when compared to Quatuor Mosaïques, is it a must-buy?

I like it better, the QM is very buttoned-down (not to say it isn't perfect, it certainly is) while the LHQ, since Op. 20, have got a little more laid back. Not to the point where the Festetics are, but nicely relaxed, IMO. For Op 33, I am also quite partial to the Appónyi Quartet, who are members of the Freiburg Baroque Orchestra BTW. If you can stream theirs you might try it out, I doubt you would DISlike it! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: schnittkease on January 21, 2019, 12:57:48 PM

Thanks! I'll try to give the Appónyi a listen.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 21, 2019, 01:11:12 PM

This is a classically unhelpful respon5se, but I have yet to hear a Haydn string quartet performance which I did not lke.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 22, 2019, 06:56:24 PM

I have been ripping the Haydn set of complete folksongs (see picture below) over the past few days. And along the way, I have been sampling the discs. What joy these bring. First, the singing is better than I was expecting. Jamie MacDougal and Lorna Anderson are quite good. The music is beautifully performed by the Haydn Trio Eisenstadt. Considering the enormous number of songs, the consistently high level of performance puts these forward in their best light. So far, I've enjoyed the duets (with accompaniment) the most. I bought this for about $10 at jpc (no longer available) and it is probably the highlight of my 2018 purchases.
This far, far, far exceeded my expectations. And with 18 discs to enjoy, I have a lot of exploring ahead of me!

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51I15gxeHoL.jpg)

I cross-posted this from the listening thread. This set is the prime example of a post that caught my eye here. I thought about it at the time, but so many songs and so much money, is it worth it? So I wishlisted it. I considered it when it came up at Berkshire. I thought that $40 was just too much for something I might never listen to or never like. And it percolated for years until I finally got it. I love songs/lieder, so this really will be a joy to explore. As I wrote, this won't be fore everyone, but it's definitely for me. Incidentally, the booklet on the cd-rom is over 350 pages! It looks pretty interesting as well.

Thanks Gurn for posting about this all those years ago. You never know the financial ruin (haha!) a post can bring. I mean, of course, you never know how one post can ultimately bring new music to our ears. And that's one of the things this forum is all about.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 22, 2019, 06:57:37 PM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 21, 2019, 01:11:12 PM
This is a classically unhelpful respon5se, but I have yet to hear a Haydn string quartet performance which I did not lke.

I dare you to find one!! haha! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: schnittkease on January 22, 2019, 09:00:40 PM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 22, 2019, 06:57:37 PM
I dare you to find one!! haha! :)

I suppose I'll make it a double-dare. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 23, 2019, 04:56:37 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 22, 2019, 06:56:24 PM
I have been ripping the Haydn set of complete folksongs (see picture below) over the past few days. And along the way, I have been sampling the discs. What joy these bring. First, the singing is better than I was expecting. Jamie MacDougal and Lorna Anderson are quite good. The music is beautifully performed by the Haydn Trio Eisenstadt. Considering the enormous number of songs, the consistently high level of performance puts these forward in their best light. So far, I've enjoyed the duets (with accompaniment) the most. I bought this for about $10 at jpc (no longer available) and it is probably the highlight of my 2018 purchases.
This far, far, far exceeded my expectations. And with 18 discs to enjoy, I have a lot of exploring ahead of me!

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51I15gxeHoL.jpg)

I cross-posted this from the listening thread. This set is the prime example of a post that caught my eye here. I thought about it at the time, but so many songs and so much money, is it worth it? So I wishlisted it. I considered it when it came up at Berkshire. I thought that $40 was just too much for something I might never listen to or never like. And it percolated for years until I finally got it. I love songs/lieder, so this really will be a joy to explore. As I wrote, this won't be fore everyone, but it's definitely for me. Incidentally, the booklet on the cd-rom is over 350 pages! It looks pretty interesting as well.

Thanks Gurn for posting about this all those years ago. You never know the financial ruin (haha!) a post can bring. I mean, of course, you never know how one post can ultimately bring new music to our ears. And that's one of the things this forum is all about.

Yes, it really is Brilliant! ( ::) ). I have the singers on other disks of Scottish songs (not all by Haydn, but by Burns), apparently Scottish songs is what they do. And you can tell it too. When I started with these I didn't really have high hopes, since I came to them through Beethoven's, which are a completely different thing. Now I am really quite a fan. I even keep a copy of the Everyman's Library 'Burns' next to me reading chair! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 23, 2019, 04:44:22 PM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 22, 2019, 06:57:37 PM
I dare you to find one!! haha! :)

Quote from: schnittkease on January 22, 2019, 09:00:40 PM
I suppose I'll make it a double-dare. 8)

(* chortle *)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on January 23, 2019, 05:00:50 PM

Not Karl. But I will take up the challenge.

Kodaly Quartet in Op 76 which struck me as a bit too bland and boring.

Mind you, the challenge is to find a performance one does not like. The challenge therefore is not to find one that is actually bad.
And I have at least one other CD from their series that I liked more...Opp. 74 IIRC.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: schnittkease on January 23, 2019, 07:58:46 PM

A thread dedicated to "bad Haydn SQ recordings"... now that's an idea.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on January 23, 2019, 11:33:13 PM

The Lindsays, perhaps?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on January 25, 2019, 08:23:32 AM

I am pretty sure that there are mediocre recordings of this music. I have not heard any of the older Aeolian Q recordings but hardly ever read any positive comments on them.
I have heard one or two of the Lindsays (a live recording, they had a bunch of live disc in addition to their others) and several of the Kodaly. The Lindsays are pretty wild and sloppy but I keep the disc both for the wildness and for sentimental reasons. The Kodaly are decent but tend sometimes to the all to "neutral" and rather boring side. I kept the discs with the problematic op.3 and the quartet versions of divertimenti a 6 that were later eliminated from opp. 1 and 2. I got rid of a disc with half of op.17 for space reasons (although this was not at all bad) and I rather disliked their op.20,4-6 which was very tame, not to say lame.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on January 25, 2019, 03:27:16 PM

Quote from: JBS on January 23, 2019, 05:00:50 PM
Kodaly Quartet in Op 76 which struck me as a bit too bland and boring.

Well, you've just torpedoed what was essentially the beginning of me collecting my own classical music.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 25, 2019, 03:34:13 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on January 25, 2019, 08:23:32 AM
I am pretty sure that there are mediocre recordings of this music. I have not heard any of the older Aeolian Q recordings but hardly ever read any positive comments on them.

They are superb, in my view.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on January 25, 2019, 03:53:17 PM

Quote from: Madiel on January 25, 2019, 03:27:16 PM
Well, you've just torpedoed what was essentially the beginning of me collecting my own classical music.

The Kodaly are just fine. They have a nice full sound. Enjoy them if you have their recordings.
But they don't "do it" for me quite like the Mosaïques do. Unfortunately, the Mosaïques didn't record everything.

The Buchberger's set is even better on a budget. It's a really good set overall. They use modern instruments but HIP style. In fact, they sound more austere than the Festetics

[asin] B001V7SG8E[/asin]

And then there is the super-budget set with the combined Dekany and Fine Arts Quartets. I only discount this set a bit because it is only available as MP3. But I really like it.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71sM2oDtmEL._SS500_.jpg)

https://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Complete-String-Quartets-VoxMegaBox/dp/B00YRDOGKQ

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 25, 2019, 04:01:35 PM

Quote from: Daverz on January 25, 2019, 03:53:17 PM
The Kodaly are just fine. They have a nice full sound. Enjoy them if you have their recordings.
But they don't "do it" for me quite like the Mosaïques do. Unfortunately, the Mosaïques didn't record everything.

The Buchberger's set is even better on a budget. It's a really good set overall. They use modern instruments but HIP style. In fact, they sound more austere than the Festetics

And then there is the super-budget set with the combined Dekany and Fine Arts Quartets. I only discount this set a bit because it is only available as MP3. But I really like it.

Or pray for re-release of the Festetics cycle (my favorite). If you do MP3 download it is very cheap.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on January 25, 2019, 04:10:02 PM

The Buchbergers were one of the groups I got in a blind listening test on the forum some years ago.

I did not like them, at all. I just found my notes from then and the conclusion was "towards the bottom" and I ended up placing them 11th out of 11 recordings. Obviously this was only on the basis of one movement, but I was not pleased.

The Festetics I rather liked, though no-one else in my group did. I placed them 2nd out of 11 recordings on one test, and 4th out of 11 on the other.

I note that the Kodaly scored badly in both tests, but I think this was one of the opuses which was not considered a good one for them in professional reviews either. It's just that their op.76 was usually one of the ones that was regarded well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on January 25, 2019, 04:16:37 PM

Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on January 25, 2019, 04:01:35 PM
Or pray for re-release of the Festetics cycle (my favorite). If you do MP3 download it is very cheap.

A wonderful set!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on January 25, 2019, 04:26:22 PM

Quote from: George on January 25, 2019, 04:16:37 PM
A wonderful set!

Presto also has it as FLAC.

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8047758--haydn-string-quartets

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on January 25, 2019, 04:31:55 PM

Quote from: Madiel on January 25, 2019, 03:27:16 PM
Well, you've just torpedoed what was essentially the beginning of me collecting my own classical music.

I just checked the price on the Kodaly set, and would advise against it on that ground. But mind you I did like another CD in that series.

I have the Festetics set, and would say that's the best one to get if you can find a reasonable price. I have the Aeolian set and never found anything bad with it. The only problem with Quatour Mosaiques is that it is incomplete.

I have the Buchberger Op 54...and remember absolutely nothing about it.

As for the Lindsays I do not have any studio recordings, but I do have this
[asin]B000M2E87W[/asin]
I would guess this is the set of live recordings Jo referred to. I like it very much.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on January 25, 2019, 04:35:06 PM

Quote from: Daverz on January 25, 2019, 04:26:22 PM
Presto also has it as FLAC.

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8047758--haydn-string-quartets

Luckily I was able to find a good used copy a few years back

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on January 25, 2019, 04:36:51 PM

Quote from: Daverz on January 25, 2019, 04:26:22 PM
Presto also has it as FLAC.

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8047758--haydn-string-quartets

As does AmazonUS. Is Amazon still boycotting Australia?
https://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Complete-String-Quartets-Instruments/dp/B073K1KC5V/

The Presto link seems to be not working just now, meaning I have no idea if Presto or Amazon have the better price.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on January 25, 2019, 04:38:21 PM

Quote from: JBS on January 25, 2019, 04:36:51 PM
As does AmazonUS. Is Amazon still boycotting Australia, btw?

Amazon has FLAC files?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on January 25, 2019, 04:43:39 PM

Quote from: Daverz on January 25, 2019, 04:38:21 PM
Amazon has FLAC files?

MP3....as a person who does not download, FLAC vs MP3 is a case of Big Endism vs Little Endism. The headphones or speakers are more important in determining SQ.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on January 25, 2019, 04:51:15 PM

Quote from: JBS on January 25, 2019, 04:43:39 PM
MP3....as a person who does not download, FLAC vs MP3 is a case of Big Endism vs Little Endism. The headphones or speakers are more important in determining SQ.

Agreed. But personally, I avoid lossy formats like the plague, except in the case where nothing else is available and the performances are non-pareil, as is the case with that Vox Box of all the quartets (I do have some of the Lps).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on January 25, 2019, 04:55:04 PM

MP3 is a format designed for dial-up internet that needs to die.

And if you do have decent headphones or speakers, they will expose the flaws of MP3 quite readily.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 25, 2019, 05:17:48 PM

A number of years ago, I asked the question of what to get (for the quartets). The answers were so all over the place that I bought a little of everyone to see which one I liked most. That would be the Angeles String Quartet. But I liked many of them. Just to balance things out (because it's just wrong to be in agreement at GMG lol!!!), the Festetics and Mosiques were towards the bottom of my list. Generally, in addition to the Angeles, I liked Tetrai, Auryn, Takacs, and Endellion. Regardless of who was playing though, I've enjoyed the adventure!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on January 25, 2019, 05:53:30 PM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 25, 2019, 05:17:48 PM
I liked Tetrai, Auryn, Takacs, and Endellion.

Are any of those complete? (Auryn, I think.) I have a duo CD by the Endellions and at least 2 from Takacs.

There is the London Haydn Quartet on Hyperion, if you want to consider a PI series currently in progress.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on January 25, 2019, 06:39:01 PM

Quote from: JBS on January 25, 2019, 05:53:30 PM
Are any of those complete? (Auryn, I think.) I have a duo CD by the Endellions and at least 2 from Takacs.

There is the London Haydn Quartet on Hyperion, if you want to consider a PI series currently in progress.

I think Auryn and Tatrai. I've not looked to see since I have the Angeles complete. London Haydn was just starting when I was looking at them, but I liked what I heard.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on January 26, 2019, 01:35:37 AM

The Buchberger are rather "rough and ready". For some it is just too unpolished, others like the kind of energy they sometimes bring. The Angeles is quite good with two caveats: They are a little too much on the "bright side", think roughly Marriner style in Mozart and Haydn and some (not all) of the recordings seem to unduly favor the first violin. OTOH they are more lively than what I have heard of the Kodaly and have nicer sound, better intonation etc. than the Buchberger.
I don't think the Kodalys are bad but I believe they were absurdly overrated by Penguin (or gramophone?) in the mid-1990s when there was not so much competition and Naxos was so cheap.

Of the HIP ensembles, I have not heard the New London which might be a step up from the older recordings. When I heard both Mosaiques (opp.20,5176,77) and Festetics (all but 33/42, 51 and 76+77), I preferred the former, although obviously they recorded fewer works. Both can be on the slow side and not lively enough at times. The Apponyi/Freiburger op.33 is maybe too much so, they also don't always make very pleasant sounds (somewhat wiry) whereas Mosaiques and Festetics most of the time have a certain "warm, earthy" sound that is rather unique, I think. If the Apponyi is hard to get, the Cuarteto Casals is similar in approach on modern instruments and flawless, if still quite lean and mean, sound.
Maybe the best of the HIP (that I heard, i.e. without New London and a few others) are the three anthologies with the Schuppanzigh although they understandably picked mostly rather famous quartets one might have already in lots of recordings.

The Auryn is complete (except for the dubious op.3 and the pieces excised from opp.1+2) and they might have the best sound and maybe also the most accomplished playing. As they used to be somewhat expensive and I was already well stocked with Haydn I only have op.33 from them and was slightly disappointed by it although it is hard to say what seems to be missing.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on January 28, 2019, 11:16:08 AM

New release
(https://files.constantcontact.com/43a1b12f601/29eadec8-1fb3-4434-ba7f-24ab43d95012.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 02, 2019, 08:45:21 AM

Quote from: mc ukrneal on January 22, 2019, 06:57:37 PM
I dare you to find one!! haha! :)

As far as I can see, there's not much love here for the Aeolian. I must be a philistine for liking them.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: schnittkease on February 02, 2019, 10:42:50 AM

So... I went on a limb and got LHQ's Op. 33 + Hamelin's piano sonatas (Vol. 1). I'm not familiar enough with the works to judge the recordings, but at first glance they seem to be fully committed readings. Thanks for the recommendations - in the next couple of days I'll be posting my thoughts.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 15, 2019, 04:43:19 PM

Quote from: schnittkease on February 02, 2019, 10:42:50 AM
So... I went on a limb and got LHQ's Op. 33 + Hamelin's piano sonatas (Vol. 1). I'm not familiar enough with the works to judge the recordings, but at first glance they seem to be fully committed readings. Thanks for the recommendations - in the next couple of days I'll be posting my thoughts.

Hope you enjoy them as much as I have. Haven't heard the Hamelin, but I have heard that he is one of the most interesting modern piano renditions. Hope to hear your take on it.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 15, 2019, 04:47:01 PM

Apparently the days when Haydn could just toss off a string quartet or two in just a few weeks are long gone. Opus 77 has always presented the mystery of why it is just 2.5 out of 6 works. I tried to explore that puzzle a little this time. Hope you enjoy (in a way) what I was able to discover.

Did he die so Beethoven could live? (https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2019/02/1799-the-music-part-1-.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on February 15, 2019, 05:14:29 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 15, 2019, 04:47:01 PM
Apparently the days when Haydn could just toss off a string quartet or two in just a few weeks are long gone. Opus 77 has always presented the mystery of why it is just 2.5 out of 6 works. I tried to explore that puzzle a little this time. Hope you enjoy (in a way) what I was able to discover.

Did he die so Beethoven could live? (https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2019/02/1799-the-music-part-1-.html)

Thanks!
8)

I will submit a variant, entirely speculative and unprovable: that Haydn felt himself to be in competition with himself. He may have wanted to produce a work that was even better than Op 76, felt that he was not (even if he was to our ears doing just that)....and there lay the root of the problem.

He was facing the problem Kanye now faces for next Feb 14. How do you outdo Kenny G live in your living room?

BTW
Is that Mozart quote really apropos? The reviewer was referring to WAM's middle symphonies, armed with knowledge of the late symphonies (not to mention whatever was known in Vienna at the time about FJH's late symphonies). Is it surprising he was underwhelmed by music composed 25 years earlier?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 15, 2019, 06:25:13 PM

Quote from: JBS on February 15, 2019, 05:14:29 PM
I will submit a variant, entirely speculative and unprovable: that Haydn felt himself to be in competition with himself. He may have wanted to produce a work that was even better than Op 76, felt that he was not (even if he was to our ears doing just that)....and there lay the root of the problem.

He was facing the problem Kanye now faces for next Feb 14. How do you outdo Kenny G live in your living room?

BTW
Is that Mozart quote really apropos? The reviewer was referring to WAM's middle symphonies, armed with knowledge of the late symphonies (not to mention whatever was known in Vienna at the time about FJH's late symphonies). Is it surprising he was underwhelmed by music composed 25 years earlier?

It's simply hard to know what was going through someone's head at such a distant remove. You may be right, it is one of those things it is hard to argue about because answers aren't forthcoming, I just think Landon doesn't have a leg to stand on, just like I didn't buy in to his original argument about piano concertos and operas.

Well, yes, I think the Mozart thing IS apropos, at least in setting the stage for what turn of the century cultural trends were doing. If that publisher didn't think the Mozart was going to sell, he certainly wouldn't have published it (at his own expense). In addition, it's not like they aren't good, middle-period symphonies, one of them is the Little g minor, the latter 2 are #27 & #30. 183 is still popular today! But it shows you how the taste was suddenly changing. Works that had been popular for 25-28 years were suddenly 'blah!'. And Ditters had always been a very big deal in his lifetime. Now he couldn't give it away. So the climate was changing, and changing fast. I think it's interesting, to say the least. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on February 15, 2019, 06:30:11 PM

It just occurred to me.
GMG must be one of the few places in the universe where, in talking about fin-de-siecle Vienna, one must make clear which siecle's fin is being referred to...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 15, 2019, 07:06:56 PM

Quote from: JBS on February 15, 2019, 06:30:11 PM
It just occurred to me.
GMG must be one of the few places in the universe where, in talking about fin-de-siecle Vienna, one must make clear which siecle's fin is being referred to...

:D Yup!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 19, 2019, 06:58:30 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 15, 2019, 04:47:01 PM
Apparently the days when Haydn could just toss off a string quartet or two in just a few weeks are long gone. Opus 77 has always presented the mystery of why it is just 2.5 out of 6 works. I tried to explore that puzzle a little this time. Hope you enjoy (in a way) what I was able to discover.

Did he die so Beethoven could live? (https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2019/02/1799-the-music-part-1-.html)

Thanks!
8)

Very much enjoyed this, O Gurn!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 19, 2019, 08:21:15 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 19, 2019, 06:58:30 AM
Very much enjoyed this, O Gurn!

Thanks, Dr. H. Op 77#2 is a fine accompaniment for reading this. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SymphonicAddict on February 19, 2019, 01:08:31 PM

Symphonies 6, 7, 22, 31, 39, 45, 48, 49, 53, 60, 76, 82, 85, 88, 93, 98, 100, 101, 103 have sticked as my favorites.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ainsi la nuit on February 20, 2019, 03:40:51 PM

I'm so in love with Haydn these days! He really was one of the very greatest composers of all time. Just tonight I've been listening to the last mass in B-flat, various overtures, the D major keyboard concerto and the G minor string quartet from the op. 20 collection. What an astounding range of expression and craftsmanship!

I also have a long-term project of listening to the complete symphonies - 40 done, quite a lot to go! There's so much to discover in these works: innovation, lyricism, wit, deeply felt expression... I find myself increasingly drawn to this music, all the time. I've always liked Haydn a lot, but I feel like I'm going completely crazy now! :D

During the Christmas holidays I also played through a few of the piano sonatas - I'm by no means a professional pianist, but nevertheless enjoy playing every now and then. I'm looking forward to exploring the music this way more often; I've already acquired some piano transcriptions of the symphonies...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 20, 2019, 04:36:15 PM

Quote from: Ainsi la nuit on February 20, 2019, 03:40:51 PM
I'm so in love with Haydn these days! He really was one of the very greatest composers of all time. Just tonight I've been listening to the last mass in B-flat, various overtures, the D major keyboard concerto and the G minor string quartet from the op. 20 collection. What an astounding range of expression and craftsmanship!

I also have a long-term project of listening to the complete symphonies - 40 done, quite a lot to go! There's so much to discover in these works: innovation, lyricism, wit, deeply felt expression... I find myself increasingly drawn to this music, all the time. I've always liked Haydn a lot, but I feel like I'm going completely crazy now! :D

During the Christmas holidays I also played through a few of the piano sonatas - I'm by no means a professional pianist, but nevertheless enjoy playing every now and then. I'm looking forward to exploring the music this way more often; I've already acquired some piano transcriptions of the symphonies...

I think Haydn is unique in many ways; he appeals to such a wide range of tastes and depths of interest and understanding. He was aware of the need for this even from early times, and in some way was able to satisfy more people than most composers can. His mainstream of music is very large, so much so that you don't need to get off into the side paths to find something new, but if you do, you will be well-rewarded, since he expended as much craftsmanship on an English Canzonet for voice and fortepiano like 'My Mother bids me bind my hair' as he did on the Drumroll Symphony. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 27, 2019, 05:59:56 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 15, 2019, 04:47:01 PM
Apparently the days when Haydn could just toss off a string quartet or two in just a few weeks are long gone. Opus 77 has always presented the mystery of why it is just 2.5 out of 6 works. I tried to explore that puzzle a little this time. Hope you enjoy (in a way) what I was able to discover.

Did he have to die so Beethoven could live? (https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2019/02/1799-the-music-part-1-.html)

Thanks!
8)

Surprised no one brought up the little hook title I used in my link. I thought you would find it intriguing.... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 30, 2019, 06:08:13 PM

Haydn's 6 Great Masses were not without controversy in their time. Not in Vienna, of course, but since he was now so hugely popular it didn't take long for them to travel elsewhere. But that is the least of the interests contained in this year's Theresienmesse, it is just plain beautiful! Here's some background.

Theresa had nothing to do with it! (https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2019/03/1799-the-music-part-2-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 06, 2019, 07:17:45 AM

Cross post from the WAYLTN thread

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81A3Qsyc05L._SY355_.jpg)

The best comment upon Haydn's music comes from Haydn himself:

Quote from: Joseph HaydnOften, when struggling against obstacles of every sort which oppose my labors: often, when the powers of mind and body weakened, and it was difficult to continue the course I had entered on; – a secret voice whispered to me: "there are so few happy and contented peoples here below; grief and sorrow are always their lot; perhaps your labors will once be a source from which the care-worn, or the man burdened with affairs, can derive a few moments rest and refreshment." This was indeed a powerful motive to press onwards, and this is why I now look back with cheerful satisfaction on the labors expended on this art, to which I have devoted so many long years of uninterrupted effort and exertion.

(emphasis mine)

Such supreme humility from the part of a genius aligns itself perfectly with the remark of another genius, perhaps not coincidentally contemporary with Haydn:

Quote from: MozartNeither a lofty degree of intelligence nor imagination nor both together go to the making of genius. Love, love, love, that is the soul of genius.

Haydn clearly loved his audience --- and it shows, big time. He is probably --- nay, certainly, in my book --- the most amiable, companionable and genial great composer ever. Whenever I have a listening burn out, I spin some Haydn, no matter what, and my love for music is instantly rekindled. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 06, 2019, 08:41:19 AM

QuoteCross post from the WAYLTN thread

The best comment upon Haydn's music comes from Haydn himself:

QuoteQuote from: Joseph Haydn
Often, when struggling against obstacles of every sort which oppose my labors: often, when the powers of mind and body weakened, and it was difficult to continue the course I had entered on; – a secret voice whispered to me: "there are so few happy and contented peoples here below; grief and sorrow are always their lot; perhaps your labors will once be a source from which the care-worn, or the man burdened with affairs, can derive a few moments rest and refreshment." This was indeed a powerful motive to press onwards, and this is why I now look back with cheerful satisfaction on the labors expended on this art, to which I have devoted so many long years of uninterrupted effort and exertion.
(emphasis mine)

Such supreme humility from the part of a genius aligns itself perfectly with the remark of another genius, perhaps not coincidentally contemporary with Haydn:

QuoteQuote from: Mozart
Neither a lofty degree of intelligence nor imagination nor both together go to the making of genius. Love, love, love, that is the soul of genius.

Haydn clearly loved his audience --- and it shows, big time. He is probably --- nay, certainly, in my book --- the most amiable, companionable and genial great composer ever. Whenever I have a listening burn out, I spin some Haydn, no matter what, and my love for music is instantly rekindled. 8)

That's a very nice quote, and very Haydnish. I am curious about the source, since I don't recall having seen it before. But I'm old, I forget stuff... :-\

Nevertheless, I think it very much expresses the Haydn I have come to know from the last 10 years of reading about him. And I agree, the music speaks for itself, it never fails to give me great pleasure. And Mozart is not far behind. It is, IMO, a combination of genius which they both had a superabundance of, and the Enlightened culture of the era. Oh, and not to mention the Viennese slant on life which they both grew up with. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 06, 2019, 08:46:09 AM

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21492.msg1210066.html#msg1210066 (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21492.msg1210066.html#msg1210066)

More to follow. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 06, 2019, 08:48:43 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 06, 2019, 08:41:19 AM
That's a very nice quote, and very Haydnish. I am curious about the source, since I don't recall having seen it before. But I'm old, I forget stuff... :-\

https://www.google.com/search?ei=C9ioXJTNAeOArwTt2IuIBw&q=haydn+few+moments+rest+refreshment&oq=haydn+few+moments+rest+refreshment&gs_l=psy-ab.3...9851.14351..16450...0.0..0.102.197.1j1......0....1..gws-wiz.......33i10.K5ZIOb_1-Ow (https://www.google.com/search?ei=C9ioXJTNAeOArwTt2IuIBw&q=haydn+few+moments+rest+refreshment&oq=haydn+few+moments+rest+refreshment&gs_l=psy-ab.3...9851.14351..16450...0.0..0.102.197.1j1......0....1..gws-wiz.......33i10.K5ZIOb_1-Ow)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 06, 2019, 09:01:16 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 06, 2019, 08:41:19 AM
the Viennese slant on life which they both grew up with. :)

Ah, yes, Gemütlichkeit! My favoritest German word! :)

Schubert & the Strauss family had it in their genes --- Beethoven and Brahms fought hard to acquire it, yet never succeeded completely. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 06, 2019, 01:00:16 PM

Got it; Complete Correspondence and London Notebooks of Joseph Haydn by Robbins Landon. Page 260. It is from a letter he wrote in 1802, which I haven't got to yet, of course. It certainly expresses his personal philosophy well, which is something you see a lot more as he gets older. I suppose old guys tend to talk/think more about their mortality and reason for being. :)

Quote from: Florestan on April 06, 2019, 09:01:16 AM
Ah, yes, Gemütlichkeit! My favoritest German word! :)

Schubert & the Strauss family had it in their genes --- Beethoven and Brahms fought hard to acquire it, yet never succeeded completely. ;D

A very fine word indeed! Haydn relocated to Vienna when he was 7 or 8 y.o.. Might as well have been a native. Mozart also was only, what, 6 or 7 the first time he went there? He was a cultural sponge, he would have fit in anywhere he went. You're right, IMO; B & B were Germans to the end! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on May 09, 2019, 07:39:37 AM

Just got a new email from the Haydn2032 project. Recording soon: "Au goût parisien":

Kammerorchester Basel
Giovanni Antonini, Dirigent

Joseph Haydn:
Sinfonie Nr. 24 in D-Dur
Sinfonie Nr. 87 in A-Dur
Sinfonie Nr. 2 in C-Dur
Sinfonie Nr. 82 L'Ours in C-Dur

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on May 09, 2019, 08:28:35 AM

Quote from: Brian on May 09, 2019, 07:39:37 AM
Just got a new email from the Haydn2032 project. Recording soon: "Au goût parisien":

Kammerorchester Basel
Giovanni Antonini, Dirigent

Joseph Haydn:
Sinfonie Nr. 24 in D-Dur
Sinfonie Nr. 87 in A-Dur
Sinfonie Nr. 2 in C-Dur
Sinfonie Nr. 82 L'Ours in C-Dur

So they're on track to finish the series before the polar ice caps melt?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 09, 2019, 10:16:19 AM

Quote from: Ghost of Baron Scarpia on May 09, 2019, 08:28:35 AM
So they're on track to finish the series before the polar ice caps melt?

I'm not betting on that, given the relative pace of each. But they have announced as far out as #10, I think, but only have released as far as #7. So 13 more years is do-able, I guess. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 02, 2019, 04:18:43 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on November 20, 2018, 04:24:39 AM
Yup. Haven't read that yet, but people (old guys, I assume) who were really into those original recordings were unanimous about the Märzendorfer being the way to go. Of course, they meant hunting down that huge box set of vinyl pressings and hoping you didn't get any Frisbees. Release on CD can only be a good thing, IMO. :)

8)

I see quite a few copies on Amazon. Is it back in circulation at least in Europe? Worth 80 bucks or so?

[asin]B07KQB31H1[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 02, 2019, 06:10:30 PM

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 02, 2019, 04:18:43 PM
I see quite a few copies on Amazon. Is it back in circulation at least in Europe? Worth 80 bucks or so?

[asin]Scribendum[/asin]

[asin]B07KQB31H1[/asin]

At least at Amazon US. $80 for 33 disks on this side. Hard to imagine it isn't in Europe, possibly jpc... ?
As for worth, your mileage may vary. I don't care for historic recordings, so it wouldn't be to me. However, I have heard nothing but good things about it from people who do.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: PerfectWagnerite on June 02, 2019, 06:51:10 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 02, 2019, 06:10:30 PM
[asin]B07KQB31H1[/asin]

At least at Amazon US. $80 for 33 disks on this side. Hard to imagine it isn't in Europe, possibly jpc... ?
As for worth, your mileage may vary. I don't care for historic recordings, so it wouldn't be to me. However, I have heard nothing but good things about it from people who do.

8)

It is not historic(1960s is not that old), at least it is stereo and pretty well recorded in my opinion. I listened to some on youtube and really like them, vivacious and alert is how I would describe them.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 02, 2019, 07:09:58 PM

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 02, 2019, 06:51:10 PM
It is not historic(1960s is not that old), at least it is stereo and pretty well recorded in my opinion. I listened to some on youtube and really like them, vivacious and alert is how I would describe them.

:D Historic is relative, I guess. But as I said, I've never read anything negative about them.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on June 23, 2019, 05:18:49 AM

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 02, 2019, 06:51:10 PM
It is not historic(1960s is not that old), at least it is stereo and pretty well recorded in my opinion. I listened to some on youtube and really like them, vivacious and alert is how I would describe them.

I'm that old, and sometimes I feel like a historical relic.

MusicWeb review of the Maerzendorfer cycle:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Jun/Haydn_sys_SC818.htm

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jwinter on June 26, 2019, 12:57:08 PM

Quote from: Daverz on June 23, 2019, 05:18:49 AM
I'm that old, and sometimes I feel like a historical relic.

MusicWeb review of the Maerzendorfer cycle:

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Jun/Haydn_sys_SC818.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2019/Jun/Haydn_sys_SC818.htm)

Thanks for that! Interesting reading... I would have sworn that Dorati was the first complete recorded set... learn something new every day... :)

Still, having acquired both the Dorati and the Fischer sets years ago, I'm not sure that I need a 3rd complete set... that's a LOT of Haydn.

Though I do tend to like older recordings... I'm very fond of Scherchen's Haydn set, and Beecham's London symphonies. Perhaps I'll pull one of those off the shelf this evening....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 26, 2019, 01:02:26 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 30, 2019, 06:08:13 PM
Haydn's 6 Great Masses were not without controversy in their time. Not in Vienna, of course, but since he was now so hugely popular it didn't take long for them to travel elsewhere. But that is the least of the interests contained in this year's Theresienmesse, it is just plain beautiful! Here's some background.

Theresa had nothing to do with it! (https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2019/03/1799-the-music-part-2-.html)

Thanks,
8)

Highly informative, and a delight to read, as ever!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 26, 2019, 02:35:24 PM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 26, 2019, 01:02:26 PM
Highly informative, and a delight to read, as ever!

Thanks, Karl! One of these days I actually will complete the next installment, about the fin de siècle of my beloved 18th century! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Muzio on June 28, 2019, 01:52:05 PM

I was wondering if someone might advise me as to which of the following boxes would be recommended. Thanks for any help!

(https://i.postimg.cc/5ypgf73G/Haydn-masses-4-boxes.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 28, 2019, 02:31:30 PM

Quote from: Muzio on June 28, 2019, 01:52:05 PM
I was wondering if someone might advise me as to which of the following boxes would be recommended. Thanks for any help!

(https://i.postimg.cc/5ypgf73G/Haydn-masses-4-boxes.jpg)

I have them all. I would choose the Naxos one all over again. The playing and singing are first-rate, but especially the size of the group, and the recorded acoustic, have a very authentic feel. Big but not huge. It is my go-to set for these works. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Muzio on June 28, 2019, 03:25:28 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 28, 2019, 02:31:30 PM
I have them all. I would choose the Naxos one all over again. The playing and singing are first-rate, but especially the size of the group, and the recorded acoustic, have a very authentic feel. Big but not huge. It is my go-to set for these works. :)

8)

Thank you! In the cart it goes! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: André on June 28, 2019, 05:12:45 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 28, 2019, 02:31:30 PM
I have them all. I would choose the Naxos one all over again. The playing and singing are first-rate, but especially the size of the group, and the recorded acoustic, have a very authentic feel. Big but not huge. It is my go-to set for these works. :)

8)

I thought your favorite set was Hickox ! :o I guess I'll have to explore that Naxos set, then... ::)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 28, 2019, 05:43:09 PM

I bought the Naxos a few years ago precisely because of the widespread enthusiasm for it. Revisiting it at the moment as it happens. I don't have any other version.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 28, 2019, 06:27:22 PM

Quote from: André on June 28, 2019, 05:12:45 PM
I thought your favorite set was Hickox ! :o I guess I'll have to explore that Naxos set, then... ::)

No, my first set was Hickox! Thus it was my favorite by default for quite a few years. :D I still like it, but I find it (like Gardiner, perhaps) to be more suited for a cathedral than a relatively small church. I also like the way the singers pronounce their Latin, although I've always thought that a bit fussy, still, there it is. You won't have any problem with Rebel Baroque, I believe. Also, not mentioned here is Tafelmusik/Weil, which is the equal of anyone. :)

Needless to say, this price is ludicrous, but probably available elsewhere too:
[asin]B01K8N9NI8[/asin]
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51GkwQRwuxL.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on June 28, 2019, 08:00:37 PM

Quote from: Muzio on June 28, 2019, 01:52:05 PM
I was wondering if someone might advise me as to which of the following boxes would be recommended. Thanks for any help!

(https://i.postimg.cc/5ypgf73G/Haydn-masses-4-boxes.jpg)

What are the actual differences between Decca I (with Willcocks) and Decca II (with Gardiner)? Is it simply a matter of Gardiner recordings replacing Willcocks recordings? If so, are the Willcocks recordings worth seeking out? (I have Decca II and the Naxos set. And also this one)
[asin]B001C555RK[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: aukhawk on June 29, 2019, 12:53:59 AM

What is the image on that Naxos sleeve? It looks quite exotic, also very watery - Venice?

(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/t_900/747313800933.jpg?1471092768)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on June 29, 2019, 03:45:46 AM

Quote from: aukhawk on June 29, 2019, 12:53:59 AM
What is the image on that Naxos sleeve? It looks quite exotic, also very watery - Venice?

(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/t_900/747313800933.jpg?1471092768)

Definitely not Venice. Definitely Vienna.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlskirche (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlskirche)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on June 29, 2019, 03:57:20 AM

My vote goes to Rebel/Burdick and Taffelmusik/Weil. I also have Guest/Preston Wilcox and Gardiner. (Six Great Masses).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Muzio on June 29, 2019, 04:30:50 AM

There is also a little 2-cd set by Marriner covering 4 masses.

(https://i.postimg.cc/yxMXFgNs/Haydn-masses-Marriner-box.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 29, 2019, 06:10:30 AM

Quote from: aukhawk on June 29, 2019, 12:53:59 AM
What is the image on that Naxos sleeve? It looks quite exotic, also very watery - Venice?

(https://d27t0qkxhe4r68.cloudfront.net/t_900/747313800933.jpg?1471092768)

It is the Karlskirche in Vienna, somewhat surprisingly to me. It should have been a picture from Vienna, but I never thought it was. Thanks for pushing me to search it! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 29, 2019, 06:24:35 AM

Quote from: JBS on June 28, 2019, 08:00:37 PM
What are the actual differences between Decca I (with Willcocks) and Decca II (with Gardiner)? Is it simply a matter of Gardiner recordings replacing Willcocks recordings? If so, are the Willcocks recordings worth seeking out? (I have Decca II and the Naxos set. And also this one)
[asin]B001C555RK[/asin]

Yes, pretty much. Willcocks is directing the Academy of St Martin in the Fields, and so if you didn't buy it because you wanted period instruments (ahem... :-[ ), then that excuse goes away, because now you have a combination of Academy of Ancient Music on the one hand, and English Baroque Soloists on the other. If I didn't already have the Preston disks and the Gardiner disks individually, I will have got that box for sure (it is new to me as a box). :)

PS - I like that Harnoncourt too, his Nelson Mass and Missa in Tempore Belli are excellent. The timpanist is clearly having a party in the loft! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on June 29, 2019, 06:31:11 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 29, 2019, 06:10:30 AM
It is the Karlskirche in Vienna, somewhat surprisingly to me. It should have been a picture from Vienna, but I never thought it was. Thanks for pushing me to search it! :)

8)

I didn't know what it was either, but I was sure it wasn't Venice. Doesn't look like anything I've seen in Venice --- and I've seen it all.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Muzio on July 01, 2019, 03:06:55 AM

I've used the GMG search engine and cannot seem to locate a section of this thread that discusses books on Joseph Haydn. Specifically, I want to purchase a book (used or new) designed to guide the reader through his works. On Amazon, I found "Oxford Composer Companions: Haydn" (Hardcover) by David Wyn Jones (Editor). Does anyone have a copy of this? Any comments or recommendations? Thanks!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 01, 2019, 05:31:16 AM

Quote from: Muzio on July 01, 2019, 03:06:55 AM
I've used the GMG search engine and cannot seem to locate a section of this thread that discusses books on Joseph Haydn. Specifically, I want to purchase a book (used or new) designed to guide the reader through his works. On Amazon, I found "Oxford Composer Companions: Haydn" (Hardcover) by David Wyn Jones (Editor). Does anyone have a copy of this? Any comments or recommendations? Thanks!

The book you are searching for does not exist. This has led some people to go to rather extreme lengths to try to provide some information. Just for interest on your part, go to this link and have a look and see if this is the sort of thing you are looking for. If so, it's free:

www.fjhaydn.com

Oxford Composer Companions: Haydn is a nice book. It is a sort of encyclopedia with information (usually brief) on a huge variety of topics related to Haydn. I use it extensively for reference. Much to my chagrin, the few gaps I ran into in its otherwise encyclopedic selection always seemed to be exactly what I was looking for. As you can imagine with a topic this large, the depth of the articles is a bit superficial.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Muzio on July 01, 2019, 07:42:51 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 01, 2019, 05:31:16 AM
The book you are searching for does not exist. This has led some people to go to rather extreme lengths to try to provide some information. Just for interest on your part, go to this link and have a look and see if this is the sort of thing you are looking for. If so, it's free:

www.fjhaydn.com

Oxford Composer Companions: Haydn is a nice book. It is a sort of encyclopedia with information (usually brief) on a huge variety of topics related to Haydn. I use it extensively for reference. Much to my chagrin, the few gaps I ran into in its otherwise encyclopedic selection always seemed to be exactly what I was looking for. As you can imagine with a topic this large, the depth of the articles is a bit superficial.

8)

Thanks very much! :) I'll check out the website. I may pick up a used copy of the book as well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on July 03, 2019, 08:48:34 AM

New this August:

(https://b2b.naxosusa.com/Images/Assets/BackCoversLoRes/CHAN%2020142.20190703103535.jpg) (https://b2b.naxosusa.com/Images/BackCovers/095115214220.pt01.jpg)

"Ivan Ilic came across these transcriptions, scarcely known at all, through the most unlikely and serendipitous sequence of events. Carl David Stegmann (1751 – 1826) was a tenor, keyboard player, conductor, and composer, who worked mostly in the field of opera. Employed by the Court Theatre in Mainz (where he sang in the first German-language production of Don Giovanni), he also gave a number of acclaimed performances in Frankfurt. Trained as an organist, he made transcriptions of string quintets by Mozart and Beethoven's Trios, Op. 9 as well as keyboard transcriptions of twenty-five of Haydn's symphonies. Ivan Ilic writes: 'It is unclear to me whether these transcriptions were ever meant to be played as concert repertoire, in public. Nevertheless, the enthusiasm I have encountered wherever I have played them has persuaded me to make this recording, to allow more people to hear Stegmann's idiomatic arrangements.'"

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 11, 2019, 05:23:51 AM

We've been listening a lot to the symphonies, the budgie & I, this summer; but just lately we've been going back again and again to The Seasons and the Harmoniemesse.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 11, 2019, 05:55:18 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 11, 2019, 05:23:51 AM
We've been listening a lot to the symphonies, the budgie & I, this summer; but just lately we've been going back again and again to The Seasons and the Harmoniemesse.

Is it a coincidence, I wonder, that they were his last completed works (along with the Creation Mass)? Latest Haydn has an aura about it which sets it apart, not only from other contemporary music, bt also from earlier Haydn works. Nice summer (or winter) music! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on July 12, 2019, 02:43:32 AM

Wiki lists a D minor divertimento from 1803, what is it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Joseph_Haydn#String_Quartets

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on July 12, 2019, 05:31:16 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on July 12, 2019, 02:43:32 AM
Wiki lists a D minor divertimento from 1803, what is it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Joseph_Haydn#String_Quartets

Well it basically looks a typo for the row immediately above it. D3 instead of 83.

EDIT: That page was only created a couple of weeks ago and basically by one person. I wouldn't treat it as gospel.

SECOND EDIT: There's a piece on IMSLP published by Schott that claims that Hoboken number.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on July 12, 2019, 05:47:32 AM

Could also be a formatting error, doubling the row above + auto-correct/format or sth. I am pretty sure that there is no divertimento neither in d minor nor from 1803.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on July 12, 2019, 05:50:35 AM

The piece on IMSLP listed as Hob III:D3 is actually in D major, though the list of Haydn compositions there says D minor and 1803. So basically the Wikipedia article is now picking up and perpetuating the mistake that is on IMSLP.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on July 12, 2019, 05:55:03 AM

And I think it's actually by Albrechtsberger.

So I've changed the Wikipedia page. IMSLP can sort themselves out.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 12, 2019, 05:59:39 AM

In 1803, Haydn finally permitted the publication of what we now call Opus 103, which is in d minor. He had held off on Op. 77 #3 for all this time in the hope he could finish it, but no. No one to my knowledge has ever called it a divertimento. To me, this is an example of people being overly anxious to publish things without doing any research.

By 1803 he was not writing anything but arrangements of Scottish Songs for Thompson. :(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on July 12, 2019, 07:01:17 AM

By the very format Hob.III:D3 shows that it is an uncertain piece, the third string quartet/Divertimento in D major attributed to Haydn. So there are at least two more that were at some stage attributed to him, suppose. As you say, it is now attributed to Albrechtsberger and from around 1763, not 1803...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on July 12, 2019, 07:11:57 AM

Sorry to have caused all this trouble

OR

Pleased to have caused all this pleasure

Take your pick.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jwinter on July 12, 2019, 07:35:54 AM

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 02, 2019, 04:18:43 PM
I see quite a few copies on Amazon. Is it back in circulation at least in Europe? Worth 80 bucks or so?

(http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B07KQB31H1.01.L.jpg)

Well, I took the plunge, and after listening to 2 CDs from this (one with 73-75, one with 93-95), I am extremely pleased... My first impression is that performance-wise I agree with how PW characterized the samples he encountered, they're fun and quite lively performances, particularly compared to the Dorati set. It's a real shame this wasn't widely known back in the day.

The sound is very good IMO for having been remastered from LPs -- there's no surface noise that I can detect (though I haven't listened through headphones), and while the dynamic range isn't quite as wide as one could wish, it's a fine, late 60's stereo recording. Think of some of the classic 60's repertoire (Bernstein, Szell, etc.) as it sounded on CD in the 90's before the most recent high-tech remasterings -- to my ears it seems equivalent to that, minus the tape hiss. It's not something you'll praise specifically for it's clarity or sound quality, but it's certainly quite pleasant to hear. I think the sound is better than the Musicweb review of the MP3 DVD version quoted above seems to indicate, which makes me suspect that Scribendum indeed did their own remastering (I haven't heard the MP3s so can't compare).

If the rest of the set is as consistent as the 2 CDs I've heard so far (a sizeable "if"), I think this will easily become my personal top option for exploring Haydn's lesser known symphonies. I already prefer the general approach here to Dorati, who seems rather slow and unrhythmic compared to this. I need to re-listen to more of Adam Fischer to make a fair comparison, but so far this set just seems more to my personal taste.

Are there better non-HIP performances of the London & Paris symphonies out there? Of course; I'm not saying it's better than Szell or Jochum or Bernstein. But for a complete set, I'm very pleased to have this.

P.S. -- Sarge, if Szell's bassoon fart is a perfect 10, I'd rate this around an 8 -- very nicely done, though I wish he'd left a fraction of a second's pause to heighten the effect... :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: André on July 12, 2019, 07:43:20 AM

Is it a box with paper sleeves, or individual plastic cases (hopefully the former) ?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 12, 2019, 08:17:01 AM

Quote from: jwinter on July 12, 2019, 07:35:54 AM
P.S. -- Sarge, if Szell's bassoon fart is a perfect 10, I'd rate this around an 8 -- very nicely done...

I appreciate a good fart joke 8)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jwinter on July 12, 2019, 09:13:54 AM

Quote from: André on July 12, 2019, 07:43:20 AM
Is it a box with paper sleeves, or individual plastic cases (hopefully the former) ?

Paper sleeves. No booklet. Compact box, much smaller than the Brilliant Fischer, about the same as the older Dorati boxset.

Each sleeve art has the same layout with a spot for a portrait of Haydn -- I will give them props for finding different pictures of Haydn for each individual disc.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jwinter on July 12, 2019, 09:14:58 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on July 12, 2019, 08:17:01 AM
I appreciate a good fart joke 8)

Sarge

Doesn't everyone? :)
Too many George Carlin albums in my misspent youth...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: André on July 12, 2019, 01:12:39 PM

Quote from: jwinter on July 12, 2019, 09:13:54 AM
Paper sleeves. No booklet. Compact box, much smaller than the Brilliant Fischer, about the same as the older Dorati boxset.

Each sleeve art has the same layout with a spot for a portrait of Haydn -- I will give them props for finding different pictures of Haydn for each individual disc.

Thanks!

60-90 seconds clips can be sampled on HaydnHouse's website:

http://www.haydnhouse.com/Maerzendorfer%20Haydn.htm (http://www.haydnhouse.com/Maerzendorfer%20Haydn.htm)

Would you say they are representative of what the discs offer ?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jwinter on July 14, 2019, 05:31:35 AM

Quote from: André on July 12, 2019, 01:12:39 PM
Thanks!

60-90 seconds clips can be sampled on HaydnHouse's website:

http://www.haydnhouse.com/Maerzendorfer%20Haydn.htm (http://www.haydnhouse.com/Maerzendorfer%20Haydn.htm)

Would you say they are representative of what the discs offer ?

I've sampled some of the clips... I think the CDs sound a little better, though I can't do an absolute A-B comparison since my computer isn't hooked up to my main stereo. It's not a big difference though -- I would say that if you are happy with the samples you can buy with confidence -- the sound definitely is not worse.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: aukhawk on July 14, 2019, 09:57:44 AM

Woo-hoo! A cheer to mark 600 pages of this epic thread, devoted to Papa Haydn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 14, 2019, 06:56:10 PM

Quote from: aukhawk on July 14, 2019, 09:57:44 AM
Woo-hoo! A cheer to mark 600 pages of this epic thread, devoted to Papa Haydn.

Woo-hoo indeed! I am particularly delighted, Haydn has earned the acclaim, we bring tribute! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 14, 2019, 07:02:03 PM

Life has been taking me on a merry ride of late, and I fear the Further Adventures of J. Haydn had been put on hold for a bit. Now, however, a new installment, and at a fortuitous time in world history; the end of the 18^th century! Was there ever a defined period which saw such major changes in the status quo? In any case, this 6^th Anniversary essay addresses that just a bit, along with the enormity of Haydn's creation, The Creation.

Fin de Siècle, it's not just for the 19^th century any more! (https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2019/07/1799-the-year-part-2-.html)

Hope you enjoy it, thanks!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 14, 2019, 07:17:12 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 14, 2019, 06:56:10 PM
Woo-hoo indeed! I am particularly delighted, Haydn has earned the acclaim, we bring tribute! :)

8)

Right on!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on July 14, 2019, 07:32:59 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 14, 2019, 07:02:03 PM
Life has been taking me on a merry ride of late, and I fear the Further Adventures of J. Haydn had been put on hold for a bit. Now, however, a new installment, and at a fortuitous time in world history; the end of the 18^th century! Was there ever a defined period which saw such major changes in the status quo? In any case, this 6^th Anniversary essay addresses that just a bit, along with the enormity of Haydn's creation, The Creation.

Fin de Siècle, it's not just for the 19^th century any more! (https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2019/07/1799-the-year-part-2-.html)

Hope you enjoy it, thanks!

8)

Indeed, enjoyed!
Although growing up it was Haydn=Symphonies. I can't be certain exactly when I first heard of The Creation, but it was well into adulthood. Whereas the Farewell and Surprise symphonies were known to me in childhood.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 15, 2019, 05:44:48 AM

Quote from: JBS on July 14, 2019, 07:32:59 PM
Indeed, enjoyed!
Although growing up it was Haydn=Symphonies. I can't be certain exactly when I first heard of The Creation, but it was well into adulthood. Whereas the Farewell and Surprise symphonies were known to me in childhood.

Delighted! In fact, the same is true for me. I have recounted how "Military" & "Surprise" were my first classical album. When I listened to classical music afterwards, it was instrumental. I didn't really get into vocal/choral music until 10-12 years ago, but then, The Creation was one of my first choices, and have always been very fond of it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on July 15, 2019, 06:29:11 AM

The beginning of The Creation alone is worth the price of admission. Honestly, I don't remember much else, "and there was light" is enough.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: jwinter on July 18, 2019, 04:40:43 PM

Ok, I was poking around the Kobo store, looking to see if there are any decent books on Papa in ebook format. I didn't find any, but I did find the first several installments of the Joseph Haydn Mysteries, by Nupur Tustin. They appear to be just what they sound like, mysteries with Haydn serving as the detective.

Anybody familiar with these? Worth checking out for a chuckle?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 18, 2019, 06:20:31 PM

Quote from: jwinter on July 18, 2019, 04:40:43 PM
Ok, I was poking around the Kobo store, looking to see if there are any decent books on Papa in ebook format. I didn't find any, but I did find the first several installments of the Joseph Haydn Mysteries, by Nupur Tustin. They appear to be just what they sound like, mysteries with Haydn serving as the detective.

Anybody familiar with these? Worth checking out for a chuckle?

I've got one on my wishlist at Amazon, but haven't pulled the trigger because I don't have any reading time right now. They look like a hoot though... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on July 23, 2019, 11:55:49 AM

Last weekend, I was in my car, and the dashboard said that the temperature was 97...while Haydn's 97th was playing on my car stereo.

Now, pretty much ALL the time the Fahrenheit temperature is a Haydn symphony, but I don't like it when it's the London symphonies!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on July 23, 2019, 12:05:07 PM

Quote from: Brian on July 23, 2019, 11:55:49 AM
Now, pretty much ALL the time the Fahrenheit temperature is a Haydn symphony, but I don't like it when it's the London symphonies!

Coincidentally, in my neck of the woods it was a Haydn 97 today too.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 23, 2019, 05:19:40 PM

Quote from: Brian on July 23, 2019, 11:55:49 AM
Last weekend, I was in my car, and the dashboard said that the temperature was 97...while Haydn's 97th was playing on my car stereo.

Now, pretty much ALL the time the Fahrenheit temperature is a Haydn symphony, but I don't like it when it's the London symphonies!

We had a cool front come through last night: I could have really happy with an 'Oxford'! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Alek Hidell on July 23, 2019, 07:00:36 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 23, 2019, 05:19:40 PM
We had a cool front come through last night: I could have really happy with an 'Oxford'! :D

8)

Us, too - probably the same front, since we're relatively near each other. We went from the London symphonies (even the triple-digit ones) to the Paris symphonies - quite a relief to cross the Channel that way! :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on July 24, 2019, 04:20:30 AM

Well, if we're talking Fahrenheit I should be able to listen to no.28 early in the morning...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 24, 2019, 04:22:39 AM

Quote from: Alek Hidell on July 23, 2019, 07:00:36 PM
Us, too - probably the same front, since we're relatively near each other. We went from the London symphonies (even the triple-digit ones) to the Paris symphonies - quite a relief to cross the Channel that way! :D

:) Well, it was the wonderful D major #62 for me this morning, can you even imagine that in July in East Texas?? Brilliant!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 29, 2019, 07:07:04 AM

Cross-post:

I am boldly going where our Gurn has gone long before, reading Haydn: His Life and Music by H.C.Robbins Landon and David Wyn Jones.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 30, 2019, 04:10:57 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 29, 2019, 07:07:04 AM
Cross-post:

I am boldly going where our Gurn has gone long before, reading Haydn: His Life and Music by H.C.Robbins Landon and David Wyn Jones.

Interesting book. The combination of their P'sOV is an interesting contrast. IMO, the much younger Wyn-Jones is by far the more conservative of the two. Nice pictures too. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on August 04, 2019, 01:18:10 PM

Just popping the shrink wrap off this new acquisition, a rare and cheap new copy from Berkshire Record Outlet:

Haydn - Symphonies 6, 7, 8, 30, 73, 94
Orchester Wiener Akademie, Martin Haselbock / Novalis Classics

I'd never heard of Novalis before but it appears to be a "super budget" line - there are no recording dates or info, no copyright info, and a 1-page booklet with an "essay" that's just two paragraphs long. Still, searching the board reveals a few GMGers are very much in the fan club for this, and I've enjoyed some previous OWA/Haselbock releases!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on August 04, 2019, 01:23:28 PM

Quote from: Brian on August 04, 2019, 01:18:10 PM
Just popping the shrink wrap off this new acquisition, a rare and cheap new copy from Berkshire Record Outlet:

Haydn - Symphonies 6, 7, 8, 30, 73, 94
Orchester Wiener Akademie, Martin Haselbock / Novalis Classics

I'd never heard of Novalis before but it appears to be a "super budget" line - there are no recording dates or info, no copyright info, and a 1-page booklet with an "essay" that's just two paragraphs long. Still, searching the board reveals a few GMGers are very much in the fan club for this, and I've enjoyed some previous OWA/Haselbock releases!

I just love their complete Liszt symphonic poems --- featuring possibly the best Les preludes ever recorded. If their Haydn is just as good then it should really be something else.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on August 04, 2019, 01:37:29 PM

Quote from: Brian on August 04, 2019, 01:18:10 PM
Just popping the shrink wrap off this new acquisition, a rare and cheap new copy from Berkshire Record Outlet:

Haydn - Symphonies 6, 7, 8, 30, 73, 94
Orchester Wiener Akademie, Martin Haselbock / Novalis Classics

I'd never heard of Novalis before but it appears to be a "super budget" line - there are no recording dates or info, no copyright info, and a 1-page booklet with an "essay" that's just two paragraphs long. Still, searching the board reveals a few GMGers are very much in the fan club for this, and I've enjoyed some previous OWA/Haselbock releases!

I only see Symphonies 6-8 on Amazon
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51JnSja9-GL.jpg)
But also
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/21C83PZS9QL.jpg)
As well as a bunch of Mozart and some CPE Bach.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 04, 2019, 01:40:34 PM

Quote from: Florestan on August 04, 2019, 01:23:28 PM
I just love their complete Liszt symphonic poems --- featuring possibly the best Les preludes ever recorded.

Granted, it's very good. But Frübeck de Burgos conducting the RSO Berlin is definitely the best :)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/aug11/lisztrfdb.jpg)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on August 04, 2019, 01:43:57 PM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 04, 2019, 01:40:34 PM
Granted, it's very good. But Frübeck de Burgos conducting the RSO Berlin is definitely the best :)

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/aug11/lisztrfdb.jpg)

Sarge

Thanks for the tip, will check it out asap.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 04, 2019, 03:18:04 PM

Quote from: Brian on August 04, 2019, 01:18:10 PM
Just popping the shrink wrap off this new acquisition, a rare and cheap new copy from Berkshire Record Outlet:

Haydn - Symphonies 6, 7, 8, 30, 73, 94
Orchester Wiener Akademie, Martin Haselbock / Novalis Classics

I'd never heard of Novalis before but it appears to be a "super budget" line - there are no recording dates or info, no copyright info, and a 1-page booklet with an "essay" that's just two paragraphs long. Still, searching the board reveals a few GMGers are very much in the fan club for this, and I've enjoyed some previous OWA/Haselbock releases!

You should quite like those. I have all of their Haydn and really enjoy them (They also have a disk with Symphonies 101 & 102). If they are 'super budget', it's news to me. They are a Swiss label, IIRC, and the half dozen or so disks I have on that label were all premium price. If you got them super budget (well, it's BRO!), you did well. Their 6-8 was originally on Novalis, but I only saw it once, not for sale. I have it on "Arts" too.

Really like that Masses disk that Jeffrey pictured, too.

(https://i.imgur.com/fTa3Eph.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Ng6HpQh.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on August 05, 2019, 08:01:14 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 04, 2019, 03:18:04 PM
You should quite like those. I have all of their Haydn and really enjoy them (They also have a disk with Symphonies 101 & 102). If they are 'super budget', it's news to me. They are a Swiss label, IIRC, and the half dozen or so disks I have on that label were all premium price. If you got them super budget (well, it's BRO!), you did well. Their 6-8 was originally on Novalis, but I only saw it once, not for sale. I have it on "Arts" too.

Really like that Masses disk that Jeffrey pictured, too.

8)

If I'd paid premium price and gotten a two-paragraph booklet note with no copyright date, I would have probably been pretty grumpy! Looks like BRO doesn't stock it anymore, so, counting myself very lucky indeed. Tried 6 and 7 but not 8 due to it being soir and me needing to cook dinner. The orchestra sounds absolutely wonderful. (Great flute players.) Time to hunt down that 101/102 disc...wherever it may be...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: aukhawk on August 05, 2019, 02:17:36 PM

IME Novalis have been a budget label going way back, and specialising in the 18thC - comparable prices to Naxos or lower, and probably been around just as long. And yes, again like Naxos, some of the artists/recordings are really good, what you pay is no guide to what you get.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 05, 2019, 02:28:40 PM

Quote from: Brian on August 05, 2019, 08:01:14 AM
If I'd paid premium price and gotten a two-paragraph booklet note with no copyright date, I would have probably been pretty grumpy! Looks like BRO doesn't stock it anymore, so, counting myself very lucky indeed. Tried 6 and 7 but not 8 due to it being soir and me needing to cook dinner. The orchestra sounds absolutely wonderful. (Great flute players.) Time to hunt down that 101/102 disc...wherever it may be...

1989 in mine. 2 pages in English. The 101-102 has 9 pages in English. I got it at AMP, but that was, like 2012 or 13...

Searching "Haselböck Haydn" on Amazon turned up a few, including that original Novalis Times of Day disk for $82. I'll keep the one I have, I guess. There is also this one, which I had forgotten, but which is a real peach:

[asin]B000001WSY[/asin]

If you run down the list, those 2 disks on Orfeo are some of my favorites of his early music. Wonderful performances of music you don't hear every day. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 05, 2019, 04:00:42 PM

This week, I'm revisiting the first recordings of the quartets I listened to, with the Amadeus Quartet.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 05, 2019, 05:16:01 PM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 05, 2019, 04:00:42 PM
This week, I'm revisiting the first recordings of the quartets I listened to, with the Amadeus Quartet.

Sweet. I wonder if everyone recalls exactly which Haydn Quartets recordings were their first. Mine was both disks of Opus 76 by the Carmina Quartet on Denon. Bought them new in 1995, still have them (and play them) today. Imprinting in action! :D

(https://i.imgur.com/9bXHRT9.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/DnbjLCI.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on August 05, 2019, 05:26:13 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 05, 2019, 05:16:01 PM
Sweet. I wonder if everyone recalls exactly which Haydn Quartets recordings were their first. Mine was both disks of Opus 76 by the Carmina Quartet on Denon. Bought them new in 1995, still have them (and play them) today. Imprinting in action! :D

(https://i.imgur.com/9bXHRT9.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/DnbjLCI.jpg)

8)

Mine was also Opus 76, but the Kodaly Quartet recordings on Naxos. Bought them at Borders. Don't remember the year.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on August 05, 2019, 06:46:12 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 05, 2019, 05:16:01 PM
Sweet. I wonder if everyone recalls exactly which Haydn Quartets recordings were their first.

Quartetto Italiano on a Quintessence Lp.

(https://img.discogs.com/9Chr6ZJTnLe6SKDnK6IBnnV4IJo=/fit-in/600x603/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-9105094-1474845651-6711.jpeg.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 05, 2019, 06:56:51 PM

Quote from: JBS on August 05, 2019, 05:26:13 PM
Mine was also Opus 76, but the Kodaly Quartet recordings on Naxos. Bought them at Borders. Don't remember the year.

That was my second set. Actually, I bought one of those Naxos White Box things and they were in it. I always liked the Kodaly Quartet, even though the Carminas were my first and favorite Op 76. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 05, 2019, 06:59:15 PM

Quote from: Daverz on August 05, 2019, 06:46:12 PM
Quartetto Italiano on a Quintessence Lp.

(https://img.discogs.com/9Chr6ZJTnLe6SKDnK6IBnnV4IJo=/fit-in/600x603/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-9105094-1474845651-6711.jpeg.jpg)

Cool. I've never heard the Italianos play Haydn, I suspect the LP's weren't ported over to CD? Did you like them?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on August 05, 2019, 08:44:31 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 05, 2019, 06:59:15 PM
Cool. I've never heard the Italianos play Haydn, I suspect the LP's weren't ported over to CD?

I believe these particular recordings came out on an Accord CD (which I also have). They later recorded a few Haydn quartets for Philips (now in a Decca box).

Quote
Did you like them?
8)

Yes, loved these recordings and played this Lp a lot back then.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on August 05, 2019, 11:40:41 PM

Novalis used to be not really budget, I think, but lots of their older recordings somehow became budget already many years ago.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on August 06, 2019, 12:11:49 AM

I remember the first LPs with symphonies owned by my father when I first started listening to classical ca. 1987. That was Dorati with 94/101 (with a kettledrum on the cover) and Collegium Aureum with 94/103 (with an historical engraving or picture of London). I do not recall the first quartet. Probably I listened to some tape of the "Emperor" before I owned any discs.

Among the first discs I remember was one with the Lindsays (opp.42, 64/5, 76/5) and op.20,4-6 with the Kodaly. I also had a cheap russian disc with op.76/5, op.74/3 and another one. This was ca. 95-96.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: aukhawk on August 06, 2019, 02:24:33 AM

Quote from: JBS on August 05, 2019, 05:26:13 PM
Mine was also Opus 76, but the Kodaly Quartet recordings on Naxos. Bought them at Borders. Don't remember the year.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 05, 2019, 06:56:51 PM
That was my second set. Actually, I bought one of those Naxos White Box things and they were in it. I always liked the Kodaly Quartet, even though the Carminas were my first and favorite Op 76. :) 8)

You had me confused there for a moment, with the White Box - that was the Hungaroton budget label and featured the Bartok Quartet, I had their late Beethoven. It's all so long ago and a bit of a blur ! ;D

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51u%2BZmp4Z4L._SX425_.jpg)

My first Haydn quartets were also the Op.76 (1-3) from the Kodaly Quartet, along with the Seven Last Words. I would have bought those around 1990 or soon after, I think.
To my shame, I didn't explore further until the Chiaroscuro Quartet's Op.20 release of late 2017 - that really turned me on and prompted a more thorough exploration lasting much of 2018, courtesy mainly of the Mosaiques and the Buchbergers. I like the 'early/middle' quartets the best - likewise with the symphonies really.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 06, 2019, 04:37:33 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on August 06, 2019, 12:11:49 AM
I remember the first LPs with symphonies owned by my father when I first started listening to classical ca. 1987. That was Dorati with 94/101 (with a kettledrum on the cover) and Collegium Aureum with 94/103 (with an historical engraving or picture of London). I do not recall the first quartet. Probably I listened to some tape of the "Emperor" before I owned any discs.

Among the first discs I remember was one with the Lindsays (opp.42, 64/5, 76/5) and op.20,4-6 with the Kodaly. I also had a cheap russian disc with op.76/5, op.74/3 and another one. This was ca. 95-96.

My intro to Haydn came when I was quite young, on an LP with 94/100, although I'm damned if I can recall the performers, despite searching for images of the cover. :'(

Actually, I was wondering whether The Emperor wasn't many people's first Haydn quartet, whether they actually recalled it or not! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 06, 2019, 04:41:33 AM

Quote from: aukhawk on August 06, 2019, 02:24:33 AM
You had me confused there for a moment, with the White Box - that was the Hungaroton budget label and featured the Bartok Quartet, I had their late Beethoven. It's all so long ago and a bit of a blur ! ;D

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51u%2BZmp4Z4L._SX425_.jpg)

My first Haydn quartets were also the Op.76 (1-3) from the Kodaly Quartet, along with the Seven Last Words. I would have bought those around 1990 or soon after, I think.
To my shame, I didn't explore further until the Chiaroscuro Quartet's Op.20 release of late 2017 - that really turned me on and prompted a more thorough exploration lasting much of 2018, courtesy mainly of the Mosaiques and the Buchbergers. I like the 'early/middle' quartets the best - likewise with the symphonies really.

Naxos used to do that same thing, for example, I got the complete Mozart piano concertos by Jando in 2 of those white boxes. I guess they don't do it anymore. :-\

Well, the Chiaroscuro and Mosaiques certainly set you on the right track! It delights me that even today, people are sort of discovering how great these works are. I really never tire of listening to them!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 06, 2019, 04:43:35 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 06, 2019, 04:41:33 AM
Naxos used to do that same thing, for example, I got the complete Mozart piano concertos by Jando in 2 of those white boxes. I guess they don't do it anymore. :-\

Well, the Chiaroscuro and Mosaiques certainly set you on the right track! It delights me that even today, people are sort of discovering how great these works are. I really never tire of listening to them!

8)

No, indeed!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on August 06, 2019, 04:45:48 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 05, 2019, 05:16:01 PMI wonder if everyone recalls exactly which Haydn Quartets recordings were their first.

My first was the Op.50 bought sometime in the late 70s in Akron Ohio where I was stationed as an Army recruiter. Still have the box set.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/apr12/P1142993_350.jpg)

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 06, 2019, 04:52:14 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 06, 2019, 04:45:48 AM
My first was the Op.50 bought sometime in the late 70s in Akron Ohio where I was stationed as an Army recruiter. Still have the box set.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/apr12/P1142993_350.jpg)

Sarge

Nice!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on August 06, 2019, 05:15:53 AM

Quote from: JBS on August 05, 2019, 05:26:13 PM
Mine was also Opus 76, but the Kodaly Quartet recordings on Naxos. Bought them at Borders. Don't remember the year.

First classical music I ever bought for myself. On cassette.

I bloody loved those cassettes.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 06, 2019, 06:03:47 AM

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on August 06, 2019, 04:45:48 AM
My first was the Op.50 bought sometime in the late 70s in Akron Ohio where I was stationed as an Army recruiter. Still have the box set.

(http://photos.imageevent.com/sgtrock/apr12/P1142993_350.jpg)

Sarge

Love that recording! You started out right on the top shelf, Sarge! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 06, 2019, 06:05:24 AM

Quote from: Madiel on August 06, 2019, 05:15:53 AM
First classical music I ever bought for myself. On cassette.

I bloody loved those cassettes.

I started with cassettes too, although had graduated to CD's by the time I got into Haydn's SQ's. Something tells me I wouldn't be as happy with them now as I was then! :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on August 06, 2019, 06:31:50 AM

Naxos had cassettes? Didn't know that!
I started listening on LPs but these were technically belonging to my father and I dubbed several on cassette tape for convenience. CDs were already on the horizon, still I bought a bunch of cassettes (I remember that Mozart 40+41 with Klemperer was one of the few I brought with me on a family holiday in 1988.) because we did not have a CD player yet and the discs were still quite expensive in ca. 1987. Whereas shops slowly got rid of MCs and LPs, so they were often rather inexpensive.
But I also recorded stuff from the radio and even when I had a player and some CDs I still had many dozens of cassettes with recordings from friend's CDs.
Hardly any Haydn, though; I admittedly neglected Haydn for years after getting to know a bunch of late symphonies, the trumpet concerto and a highlights LP of the Creation. I guess it was almost 10 years later in the second half of the 1990s that I got more involved with Haydn's music.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: ritter on August 06, 2019, 06:46:15 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 05, 2019, 05:16:01 PM
...I wonder if everyone recalls exactly which Haydn Quartets recordings were their first...

My first CD containing Haydn SQs was this:

[asin]B000005GL2[/asin]
I got it for the Berio, TBH, but of course the Haydn were a wonderful bonus. Since then, I've purchased the (incomplete) Schneider Quartet traversal (reissued by Music & Arts), which I have greatly enjoyed, and also have the Buchberger SQ cycle included in the Brilliant mega-box (a cycle which IIRC, I still haven't explored).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on August 06, 2019, 07:06:43 AM

Quote from: JBS on August 05, 2019, 05:26:13 PM
Mine was also Opus 76, but the Kodaly Quartet recordings on Naxos. Bought them at Borders. Don't remember the year.

Thinking further....the Kodaly Op 76 may have been my second Haydn quartet purchase. I got this set just about the same time, and can't remember which came first.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81ZAIkkv8AL.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51cDApFOOgL.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: aukhawk on August 06, 2019, 09:37:22 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 06, 2019, 04:37:33 AM
My intro to Haydn came when I was quite young, on an LP with 94/100, although I'm damned if I can recall the performers, despite searching for images of the cover. :'(

Well - my intro to Haydn came when I was quite young (I may have related this tale before) - as a toddler, my father used to dandle me on his knee whilst humming the tune of the Surprise symphony - then opening his knees to dump me onto the floor at the surprising moment. Needless to add, this routine rapidly became quite tedious even to little me, lacking as I did the sophistication of the 18thC concert-goer ::) - but dad was quite good at improvising freely on which precise note the surprise would happen!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on August 06, 2019, 10:18:36 AM

Quote from: Daverz on August 05, 2019, 06:46:12 PM
Quartetto Italiano on a Quintessence Lp.

(https://img.discogs.com/9Chr6ZJTnLe6SKDnK6IBnnV4IJo=/fit-in/600x603/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-9105094-1474845651-6711.jpeg.jpg)

~~Do they make the joke sound like . . . funny?~~

Found it, and they do not.

https://www.youtube.com/v/o2BYiVnYfGQ&list=OLAK5uy_nfi08AqSct1XPHnjR8MkTLO1-OtQh6_x0&index=9

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 06, 2019, 10:20:13 AM

Quote from: aukhawk on August 06, 2019, 09:37:22 AM
Well - my intro to Haydn came when I was quite young (I may have related this tale before) - as a toddler, my father used to dandle me on his knee whilst humming the tune of the Surprise symphony - then opening his knees to dump me onto the floor at the surprising moment. Needless to add, this routine rapidly became quite tedious even to little me, lacking as I did the sophistication of the 18thC concert-goer ::) - but dad was quite good at improvising freely on which precise note the surprise would happen!

(* chortle *)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on August 06, 2019, 10:22:06 AM

Quote from: aukhawk on August 06, 2019, 09:37:22 AM
Well - my intro to Haydn came when I was quite young (I may have related this tale before) - as a toddler, my father used to dandle me on his knee whilst humming the tune of the Surprise symphony - then opening his knees to dump me onto the floor at the surprising moment. Needless to add, this routine rapidly became quite tedious even to little me, lacking as I did the sophistication of the 18thC concert-goer ::) - but dad was quite good at improvising freely on which precise note the surprise would happen!

Your dad had a Haydnesque sense of humour, it seems.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 06, 2019, 10:50:29 AM

Quote from: aukhawk on August 06, 2019, 09:37:22 AM
Well - my intro to Haydn came when I was quite young (I may have related this tale before) - as a toddler, my father used to dandle me on his knee whilst humming the tune of the Surprise symphony - then opening his knees to dump me onto the floor at the surprising moment. Needless to add, this routine rapidly became quite tedious even to little me, lacking as I did the sophistication of the 18thC concert-goer ::) - but dad was quite good at improvising freely on which precise note the surprise would happen!

:D ;D :D Love that. So he did a Minkowski on you, before that was a thing! ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 06, 2019, 10:55:51 AM

Quote from: JBS on August 06, 2019, 07:06:43 AM
Thinking further....the Kodaly Op 76 may have been my second Haydn quartet purchase. I got this set just about the same time, and can't remember which came first.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81ZAIkkv8AL.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51cDApFOOgL.jpg)

That looks a good one. I have gotten where I like the disks of mixed quartets instead of the complete opera. The Schuppanzigh's have 3 of them, and the Amsterdam have 2, plus a couple of others. And they aren't necessarily a cherry-picking of just the "best" one of each opus, either. Somehow that's more entertaining for me. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 06, 2019, 11:30:47 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 06, 2019, 10:55:51 AM
That looks a good one. I have gotten where I like the disks of mixed quartets instead of the complete opera. The Schuppanzigh's have 3 of them, and the Amsterdam have 2, plus a couple of others. And they aren't necessarily a cherry-picking of just the "best" one of each opus, either. Somehow that's more entertaining for me. :)

8)

Nice to mix things up.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 06, 2019, 11:59:51 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 06, 2019, 11:30:47 AM
Nice to mix things up.

Indeed it is. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on August 26, 2019, 07:17:44 PM

UK release date mid September, US release date early October
(https://www.europadisc.co.uk/images/products-190/1564662372_95885.jpg)

[Does Michael have his own thread?]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: schnittkease on August 26, 2019, 08:57:45 PM

Quote from: JBS on August 26, 2019, 07:17:44 PM
[Does Michael have his own thread?]

Yes!

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,14714.0.html

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 27, 2019, 04:16:44 AM

Quote from: JBS on August 26, 2019, 07:17:44 PM
UK release date mid September, US release date early October
(https://www.europadisc.co.uk/images/products-190/1564662372_95885.jpg)

[Does Michael have his own thread?]

Sweet! And about time, I might add. If Joseph had never existed, Michael would have been considered a top composer of the time, right after Mozart. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on August 27, 2019, 06:15:52 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 27, 2019, 04:16:44 AM
Sweet! And about time, I might add. If Joseph had never existed, Michael would have been considered a top composer of the time, right after Mozart. :)

8)

Wow. Did they commission someone to record the symphonies? The only one I know of that did pretty much all (or most) of them is on CPO. Naxos have a few discs too I think, though not sure how many. I am curious!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on August 27, 2019, 06:16:44 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 27, 2019, 04:16:44 AM
Sweet! And about time, I might add. If Joseph had never existed, Michael would have been considered a top composer of the time, right after Mozart. :)

8)

It was to a lesser degree CPE Bach case too: both of them were heroes among gods. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on August 27, 2019, 11:00:15 AM

It's mostly already existing recordings from other labels. The symphonies seem to be mainly taken from the ones Farberman recorded for VOX. I don't know if there were 7 discs of these VOX recordings, I have about three and they are quite good.

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/michael-haydn-collection/hnum/9262178

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on August 27, 2019, 05:56:21 PM

Quote from: schnittkease on August 26, 2019, 08:57:45 PM
Yes!

http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,14714.0.html

Thanks, I posted accordingly there.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vers la flamme on September 06, 2019, 04:55:11 AM

I love the late Haydn symphonies: the Paris, London, and "Oxford"/in-between symphonies are all great. I really like the recordings of Colin Davis, Frans Brüggen, and a new favorite is George Szell with the Cleveland Orchestra. But beyond this and a few string quartets, I am mostly clueless about Haydn.

I'm interested in his so called Sturm und Drang symphonies. Is there any recording out there as an alternate to the famous Pinnock box set of these? I'm not sure I trust Pinnock's interpretive ability with Haydn, though his Bach is good. Perhaps I'll give it a shot, or maybe I should hold out for a complete set such as the Ádám Fischer...?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on September 06, 2019, 05:57:36 AM

Quote from: vers la flamme on September 06, 2019, 04:55:11 AM
I love the late Haydn symphonies: the Paris, London, and "Oxford"/in-between symphonies are all great. I really like the recordings of Colin Davis, Frans Brüggen, and a new favorite is George Szell with the Cleveland Orchestra. But beyond this and a few string quartets, I am mostly clueless about Haydn.

I'm interested in his so called Sturm und Drang symphonies. Is there any recording out there as an alternate to the famous Pinnock box set of these? I'm not sure I trust Pinnock's interpretive ability with Haydn, though his Bach is good. Perhaps I'll give it a shot, or maybe I should hold out for a complete set such as the Ádám Fischer...?

Is the Bruno Weil reissue mini-set Sturm und Drang?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on September 06, 2019, 08:58:44 AM

Weil has a bunch of the most famous "Sturm und Drang", like the "Farewell" but not all of them, I think. It is not a clearly delineated group anyway but usually around 20 symphonies from the late 1760s and early 1770s are collected under that moniker.

FWIW, I think Pinnock is very good and highly recommendable as a set. But I have only heard a few of Weil's and it's been a long time ago. Not sure if Bruggen's is still available as boxed set. He is more varied, occasionally mannered and maybe not as clearly a first recommendation as the more straightforward Pinnock.
Derek Solomons' abandoned Haydn project encompassed most of these pieces as well but they were never all on CD and have mostly been oop for a long time, if you find his #39, #45, #48, #49, #59, get them. They are very lean and intense, almost monomanic with a small string section and prominent horns and winds.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on September 06, 2019, 05:27:19 PM

Quote from: vers la flamme on September 06, 2019, 04:55:11 AM
I love the late Haydn symphonies: the Paris, London, and "Oxford"/in-between symphonies are all great. I really like the recordings of Colin Davis, Frans Brüggen, and a new favorite is George Szell with the Cleveland Orchestra. But beyond this and a few string quartets, I am mostly clueless about Haydn.

I'm interested in his so called Sturm und Drang symphonies. Is there any recording out there as an alternate to the famous Pinnock box set of these? I'm not sure I trust Pinnock's interpretive ability with Haydn, though his Bach is good. Perhaps I'll give it a shot, or maybe I should hold out for a complete set such as the Ádám Fischer...?

They're all in the big Hogwood box. Originally these were separate 3-CD volumes, and so a couple of those volumes covered the Sturm and Drang period.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61YspJk9OML._SX425_.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71nBExC6LkL._SX450_.jpg)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71DfO%2B%2BtxGL._SX450_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on September 07, 2019, 12:27:01 AM

I just checked the different boxes: Pinnock has 19 symphonies, Weil's Sony box has 12 from that period (+82-90), missing a few important ones like 48 and 49. Hogwood has a slightly different distribution on the discs (and not always so well-filled), so one would have to get his volume 5 and 8 (incl. #50) as well, I guess.

I am generally not a huge Pinnock fan but these Haydn symphonies are really very good. (I prefer them to Hogwood, although I cannot compare the exact same pieces as I have three different volumes from the latters series.) There is now also a larger box that includes also 6-8, and 2 discs with concertos and 3 with sacred music.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vers la flamme on September 07, 2019, 07:56:46 AM

Weil/Tafelmusik seems to be the way to go. Thanks for the tip.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on September 13, 2019, 02:37:48 PM

So symphonies 90-92 are known as the Wallerstein symphonies. I did not know that. Haven't listened to this yet.

[asin]B07TKNG21B[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on September 13, 2019, 02:39:42 PM

Quote from: Daverz on September 13, 2019, 02:37:48 PM
So symphonies 90-92 are known as the Wallerstein symphonies.

??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SymphonicAddict on September 13, 2019, 02:42:10 PM

Quote from: Florestan on September 13, 2019, 02:39:42 PM
??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???

You're replacing Mirror Image as the most avatar-changing user. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SymphonicAddict on September 13, 2019, 02:47:28 PM

The Symphony No. 83 is one of my most beloved Haydn symphonies. As I am more a passional human being, I love the pushing and driving beginning. It's enough to give energy to the whole symphony. Really the title of The hen or Le poule is rather naïve and silly IMHO. This is music intelligently constructed, fun, rhytmic, melodious.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on September 13, 2019, 02:48:45 PM

Quote from: SymphonicAddict on September 13, 2019, 02:42:10 PM
You're replacing Mirror Image as the most avatar-changing user. ;D

I know, I know... you're right... ;D

Boy scout honor, I'll stick to Серге́й Васи́льевич until I get tired of it. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SymphonicAddict on September 13, 2019, 03:15:26 PM

Quote from: Florestan on September 13, 2019, 02:48:45 PM
I know, I know... you're right... ;D

Boy scout honor, I'll stick to Серге́й Васи́льевич until I get tired of it. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

я aгрee! 0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on September 13, 2019, 03:22:40 PM

Quote from: SymphonicAddict on September 13, 2019, 03:15:26 PM
я aгрee! 0:)

Ну, погоди! 0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on September 13, 2019, 04:38:10 PM

Quote from: Daverz on September 13, 2019, 02:37:48 PM
So symphonies 90-92 are known as the Wallerstein symphonies.

Who by?

I have professional experience of a small group of people coming up with terminology and then acting as if everyone else also uses it.

Haydn apparently managed to simultaneously compose symphonies commissioned for Paris and for this German principality... by giving them the same works.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 13, 2019, 05:17:32 PM

Quote from: Daverz on September 13, 2019, 02:37:48 PM
So symphonies 90-92 are known as the Wallerstein symphonies. I did not know that. Haven't listened to this yet.

Here is the story, if anyone is interested. Part 1 (https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/07/1788-the-music-part-1-.html) - Part 2 (https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/08/1789-the-music-part-1-.html). Really, they are the Paris Symphonies Part 2, but as you will see, Haydn had other ideas! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on September 13, 2019, 05:25:38 PM

Quote from: Daverz on September 13, 2019, 02:37:48 PM
So symphonies 90-92 are known as the Wallerstein symphonies. I did not know that. Haven't listened to this yet.

[asin]B07TKNG21B[/asin]

I listened to 90. Nice, but doesn't dislodge Dennis Russell Davies from the top spot.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 13, 2019, 05:49:54 PM

Quote from: Daverz on September 13, 2019, 05:25:38 PM
I listened to 90. Nice, but doesn't dislodge Dennis Russell Davies from the top spot.

Haven't heard either one of those. I have Brüggen and Kuijken, pretty well satisfied on any given day listening to them. Of course, many more of #92... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 25, 2019, 08:46:04 AM

Boy, I've not been here in a while! A LOT of great activity - for those interested in the London Haydn Quartet's ongoing project of recording the SQs - just purchase their 8th release, Op. 71 & 74 - left the post below in the listening thread yesterday. Dave

QuoteHaydn, Joseph - String Quartets, Op. 71 & 74 - new release by the London Haydn Quartet (recorded in October 2018) - I've been collecting this project from the beginning; their 8th double-disc release. According to Wiki (2nd pic below; Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_string_quartets_by_Joseph_Haydn)), Papa Haydn wrote 68 SQs, so the group is down to line 13 on the listing - have enjoyed these discs over the years. Dave

P.S. in the painting, my guess is the usual trio Haydn played SQs w/ while in Vienna, i.e. Mozart, Vanhal, & Dittersdorf - need Gurn for verification- :)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71QrvjV7gYL._SL1200_.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Miscellaneous/i-689dKS9/0/acd69ef5/O/HaydnSQs.png)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 25, 2019, 09:01:34 AM

In the picture it looks as if Haydn plays the viola (or it is a really big violin!) but the viola player should be Mozart, I think. WAM is supposedly the leftmost player with the redddish hair whose instrument is blocked by the lanky guy in the foreground.
Further nitpicking: opp. 71/74 is the only opus composed for London concerts, so they would not have been played by that ensemble (another impediment would be that Mozart was already dead).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on October 25, 2019, 09:32:02 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on October 25, 2019, 09:01:34 AM
In the picture it looks as if Haydn plays the viola (or it is a really big violin!) but the viola player should be Mozart, I think. WAM is supposedly the leftmost player with the redddish hair whose instrument is blocked by the lanky guy in the foreground.
Further nitpicking: opp. 71/74 is the only opus composed for London concerts, so they would not have been played by that ensemble (another impediment would be that Mozart was already dead).

My thoughts were similar, i.e. in Vienna when Haydn played w/ the aforementioned composers, he was on violin and indeed the instrument in his hands looks like a viola, but I'm sure that the small string instrument parts could have been switched between Mozart & Haydn? Vanhal would be on the cello and Ditters on the violin. The painting is from the linked Wiki article and does not necessarily refer to the Op. 71/74 works which indeed were composed after Wolfie's death - likely an earlier date? I did a limited search on the origins of the painting and the artist but to no avail - will try again. Dave

ADDENDUM: Below is all that I could find - painting in a Vienna Museum by an anonymous artist - date stated to be before 1790, so presumably Mozart on the far left.
.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Miscellaneous/i-pP3Fwnn/0/e6d83774/O/HadynSQPlaying.png)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 25, 2019, 09:54:30 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on October 25, 2019, 09:01:34 AM
In the picture it looks as if Haydn plays the viola (or it is a really big violin!) but the viola player should be Mozart, I think. WAM is supposedly the leftmost player with the redddish hair whose instrument is blocked by the lanky guy in the foreground.
Further nitpicking: opp. 71/74 is the only opus composed for London concerts, so they would not have been played by that ensemble (another impediment would be that Mozart was already dead).

I am curious where you got this information. That painting is called "Haydn conducting a performance of a string quartet" was painted by someone named Schmid sometime in the late 18th or early 19th century. Information beyond that is very scarce. The only thing I can say about it is that it is totally not appropriate for Op 71/74, for all the reasons you mention (yeah, death is a big impediment!). However, it is also not related to the performance of Mozart's 'Haydn Quartets', to which you seem to be referring. In that situation, Mozart was indeed playing the viola, while Haydn allegedly played first violin, although in reality, Ditters would have doubtless been doing so, he was a premier virtuoso.

Quote from: SonicMan46 on October 25, 2019, 09:32:02 AM
My thoughts were similar, i.e. in Vienna when Haydn played w/ the aforementioned composers, he was on violin and indeed the instrument in his hands looks like a viola, but I'm sure that the small string instrument parts could have been switched between Mozart & Haydn? Vanhal would be on the cello and Ditters on the violin. The painting is from the linked Wiki article and does not necessarily refer to the Op. 71/74 works which indeed were composed after Wolfie's death - likely an earlier date? I did a limited search on the origins of the painting and the artist but to no avail - will try again. Dave

ADDENDUM: Below is all that I could find - painting in a Vienna Museum by an anonymous artist - date stated to be before 1790, so presumably Mozart on the far left.
.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Miscellaneous/i-pP3Fwnn/0/e6d83774/O/HadynSQPlaying.png)

The player on the far left, who appears to be playing a violin, looks to me like a woman. Certainly there were women violinists in Vienna at the time, Regina Strinasacchi comes to mind, so it isn't impossible for sure. There were extremely few women fiddlers in England, however. It was socially frowned upon in a big way.

It really is a puzzling image. If it is genuinely from 1790, and not actually from later on, I can very well conceive it to be from the era of Opus 64. Mozart, Haydn and Abbe Maximilian Stadler regularly got together in 1789-90 and played Haydn's quartets and Mozart's string quintets, in which Mozart & Haydn played the violas. There were multitudes of string players who could have joined them.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 25, 2019, 10:01:13 AM

This is interesting; I would have thought that it was a much later 19th century rendition.
Looking again, I am not even sure if the guy in the green coat is supposed to be Mozart. He doesn't look like him (neither does the player in the foreground, though). So maybe Mozart is not supposed to be in the picture at all and neither Vanhal or Dittersdorf and only Haydn is an actual historical person in the picture?
EDIT: the guy in green looks in fact somewhat feminine, but a woman in man's dress would not be there without a very particular reason, so I am pretty sure it is a male.

Sure, Mozart and Haydn could have switched places/instruments but the former's preference for the viola (when playing chamber music) seems well documented.

And it seems strange that Haydn should lead the performance (as he clearly is shown in the picture) from the viola, although it is of course not impossible.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 25, 2019, 10:20:25 AM

I said painting, but I should have said engraving. Dave's info indicates it was recolored at a later date, which I can imagine to be the case, since many engravings were in black & white. I have had this jpeg for several years, and so I can't remember where I got the info to title it, but I have it named

"Haydn leading a quartet 18th century engraving by Schmid"

which I wouldn't have done unless the source of the picture put that information in... :-\

8)

(https://i.imgur.com/JYxNFIQ.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 25, 2019, 10:24:39 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on October 25, 2019, 10:01:13 AM
This is interesting; I would have thought that it was a much later 19th century rendition.
Looking again, I am not even sure if the guy in the green coat is supposed to be Mozart. He doesn't look like him (neither does the player in the foreground, though). So maybe Mozart is not supposed to be in the picture at all and neither Vanhal or Dittersdorf and only Haydn is an actual historical person in the picture?
EDIT: the guy in green looks in fact somewhat feminine, but a woman in man's dress would not be there without a very particular reason, so I am pretty sure it is a male.

Sure, Mozart and Haydn could have switched places/instruments but the former's preference for the viola (when playing chamber music) seems well documented.

And it seems strange that Haydn should lead the performance (as he clearly is shown in the picture) from the viola, although it is of course not impossible.

Oddly enough, Haydn played the viola whenever he got the opportunity. If you listen to the Baryton Trios (Baryton, Viola & Cello), oftentimes the viola part is nicer than the others (in my ears anyway). Haydn always played it, with the Prince on Baryton and various cellists from the band. He did the same thing Mozart did, made the viola part better than it might have otherwise been and played it himself. In a string quartet, I suspect he would have done the same, let the guests play the fiddle while he played the lower ranges. It suits what I know of his character.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on October 25, 2019, 10:31:45 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 25, 2019, 10:20:25 AM
I said painting, but I should have said engraving. Dave's info indicates it was recolored at a later date, which I can imagine to be the case, since many engravings were in black & white. I have had this jpeg for several years, and so I can't remember where I got the info to title it, but I have it named

"Haydn leading a quartet 18th century engraving by Schmid"

which I wouldn't have done unless the source of the picture put that information in... :-\

8)

(https://i.imgur.com/JYxNFIQ.jpg)

The original image might actually have been reversed, which would explain Haydn's leading: he was originall at the right.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: ritter on October 25, 2019, 12:26:46 PM

Quote from: Florestan on October 25, 2019, 10:31:45 AM
The original image might actually have been reversed, which would explain Haydn's leading: he was originall at the right.

But wouldn't that make all players left-handed in the original?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 25, 2019, 03:38:28 PM

Quote from: ritter on October 25, 2019, 12:26:46 PM
But wouldn't that make all players left-handed in the original?

Yes it would. I don't buy into the reversed image theory. But I don't bat an eye at Haydn playing a viola, as long as Mozart wasn't there. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on October 26, 2019, 12:20:00 AM

Quote from: ritter on October 25, 2019, 12:26:46 PM
But wouldn't that make all players left-handed in the original?

Yes, I realized that later. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 26, 2019, 12:33:29 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on October 25, 2019, 10:24:39 AM
Oddly enough, Haydn played the viola whenever he got the opportunity. If you listen to the Baryton Trios (Baryton, Viola & Cello), oftentimes the viola part is nicer than the others (in my ears anyway). Haydn always played it, with the Prince on Baryton and various cellists from the band. He did the same thing Mozart did, made the viola part better than it might have otherwise been and played it himself.

As the baryton trios have no violin part this seems a moot point (and Haydn probably didn't score them with violin because the baryton was supposed to have center stage). But you are right that some composers seem to have loved to play the viola in ensemble (supposedly Bach as well but maybe I read this only wrt to Brandenburg 6). One reason for it seems to be that one is more "inside the works". Another, although this certainly did not apply to Bach, Mozart and Haydn is that viola parts are usually easier and those who never got far on the violin might still do acceptably on viola (like the young Beethoven).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 26, 2019, 09:13:43 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on October 26, 2019, 12:33:29 AM
As the baryton trios have no violin part this seems a moot point (and Haydn probably didn't score them with violin because the baryton was supposed to have center stage). But you are right that some composers seem to have loved to play the viola in ensemble (supposedly Bach as well but maybe I read this only wrt to Brandenburg 6). One reason for it seems to be that one is more "inside the works". Another, although this certainly did not apply to Bach, Mozart and Haydn is that viola parts are usually easier and those who never got far on the violin might still do acceptably on viola (like the young Beethoven).

True. The viola part in the 6 duos (Hob 6:1-6) is equally challenging though. I don't think I have documentation, but I believe they were written for Haydn and Luigi Tomasini to play together.

I actually just read about Bach and the viola rather recently and thought "well, there's yet another". I agree with your 'inside the work' idea, in fact I may have read that somewhere, particularly about string quartets. It is an instrument that doesn't get noticed until it isn't there anymore. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 02, 2019, 09:09:49 PM

I'm getting a bit puzzled by Symphony 97. In the slow movement, in the third variation, Haydn asks the violinists to play sul ponticello, which should produce a 'nasty rasping' (Steinberg).

I can't hear this on any recording I have, including the Bruggen. Is it in fact quite subtle, or is there a recording with audible nasty rasping?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on November 03, 2019, 02:10:06 AM

The effect *is* quite subtle in most recordings. And nasty rasping is clearly exaggerated, it's more like a "glassy" effect between spooky and ethereal. I have not checked again but in earlier notes I was also surprised that it is hardly audible in Brüggen's recording. According to said notes I found it more obvious in Szell's and Harnoncourt's recordings.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on November 03, 2019, 11:16:12 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on November 03, 2019, 02:10:06 AM
The effect *is* quite subtle in most recordings. And nasty rasping is clearly exaggerated, it's more like a "glassy" effect between spooky and ethereal. I have not checked again but in earlier notes I was also surprised that it is hardly audible in Brüggen's recording. According to said notes I found it more obvious in Szell's and Harnoncourt's recordings.

Thanks, I'll have a listen to those. I did find the Dorati recording on Youtube and could hear a sort of wiry timbre in that variation. I'll look forward to hearing a better quality recording in that passage.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 15, 2019, 03:59:49 PM

Quote from: San Antone on November 15, 2019, 12:40:54 PM
I am sure this set in well known in these parts, but I just discovered it today and have been enjoying it. I thought I'd mention it.

(https://img.cdandlp.com/2018/06/imgL/119180155.jpg)

Haydn - Complete Keyboard Works
Bart Van Oort

Nice!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on November 15, 2019, 06:35:31 PM

Quote from: San Antone on November 15, 2019, 12:40:54 PM
I am sure this set in well known in these parts, but I just discovered it today and have been enjoying it. I thought I'd mention it.

(https://img.cdandlp.com/2018/06/imgL/119180155.jpg)

Haydn - Complete Keyboard Works
Bart Van Oort

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on November 15, 2019, 03:59:49 PM
Nice!

Nice indeed. There are some pieces in there which don't crop up elsewhere, although it does make me feel worse that so many of the dances haven't been recorded by small orchestras, since you can see how nice they are. Oort is consistently good, which is why I'm pleased to have both his Haydn & Mozart sets. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 02, 2019, 03:47:23 PM

I've been a short hiatus, reaching the end of 1799 was a landmark thing for me, and starting 1800 was a good place to take a break. But in the interim, I thought the time was just right to finally finish up on Haydn's music of the 1790's. It broke out well into two 5-year blocks, the first in England, the second in Vienna. So if you are a lover of lists, here is part 2 of the biggest music decade of Haydn's life!

The music from Vienna - 1796 - 1800 (https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2019/12/haydns-music-of-the-1790s-part-2-1.html)

Thanks!
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: staxomega on December 08, 2019, 09:02:06 AM

I've had Seven Last Words of Christ for string quartet in my heavy listening these last couple of months (Festetics and Mosaiques), what an incredibly beautiful piece. These were late discoveries for me until I found the rather hard to find Festetics CD on Harmonia Mundi... I think I ignored them for so long since it seemed like something transcribed just for the sake of a commission but I am glad to say I found it sooner rather than later.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 08, 2019, 10:21:27 AM

Quote from: hvbias on December 08, 2019, 09:02:06 AM
I've had Seven Last Words of Christ for string quartet in my heavy listening these last couple of months (Festetics and Mosaiques), what an incredibly beautiful piece. These were late discoveries for me until I found the rather hard to find Festetics CD on Harmonia Mundi... I think I ignored them for so long since it seemed like something transcribed just for the sake of a commission but I am glad to say I found it sooner rather than later.

They are beautiful, without doubt. If you would like to read something of the background of them, here are a couple of essays.
The work itself (orchestral version) (https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/05/1786-the-music-part-4-.html)
The arrangements for quartet & keyboard (https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/06/1787-the-music-part-5-.html)

Curious where you found the Festetics disk! I have been looking for that (on HM/Quintana, I'd guess) for several years, without success! :'(

Cheers,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: staxomega on December 08, 2019, 04:06:02 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 08, 2019, 10:21:27 AM
They are beautiful, without doubt. If you would like to read something of the background of them, here are a couple of essays.
The work itself (orchestral version) (https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/05/1786-the-music-part-4-.html)
The arrangements for quartet & keyboard (https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/06/1787-the-music-part-5-.html)

Curious where you found the Festetics disk! I have been looking for that (on HM/Quintana, I'd guess) for several years, without success! :'(

Cheers,
8)

Thank you very much, I look forward to delving more into your entries. I have not heard the one for keyboard, I'll see about hearing it. This is one that came into my local record store, they are cool dudes that text me when they get in classical collections; I've picked up some rare discs this way.

I sent you a PM.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on January 10, 2020, 02:49:23 AM

Cross post from the WAYLT thread.

Two absolutely charming discs:

(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0000/968/MI0000968331.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)(https://eclassical.textalk.se/shop/17115/art15/h5848/4765848-origpic-9e3372.png)

The inclusion of cimbalom in Haydn's Zingareses is a stroke of genius.

An exhilarating experience, really.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 10, 2020, 07:00:39 AM

Quote from: Florestan on January 10, 2020, 02:49:23 AM
Cross post from the WAYLT thread.

Two absolutely charming discs:

(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0000/968/MI0000968331.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)(https://eclassical.textalk.se/shop/17115/art15/h5848/4765848-origpic-9e3372.png)

The inclusion of cimbalom in Haydn's Zingareses is a stroke of genius.

An exhilarating experience, really.

I have that disk, it is a very nice listen. I can tell you that many of the works on it are only attributions, but even at that, they are fun to listen to. I wish there were other Haydn dances available: there are many which even have scores for the orchestral version, and yet have never been recorded. You can find them in piano reduction (Brautigam, Oort) or you wouldn't even know they existed! That is what makes this one uniquely nice to have. :)

I'll have to check out the Beethoven!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 05, 2020, 02:37:55 PM

Well, I've been going through the last 20 or so pages of the thread - thanks to Gurn for his wonderful and informative blog posts! 8)

Today, I started a perusal of my Haydn Collection (numbers second only to the Bach clan!) - will likely be culling our duplicates or triplicates and adding and replacing - first up on the list are my Baryton CDs - currently own the selections below (although looking on Amazon today, other recordings seem to have appeared!) - have always loved the Ricecar recordings; will listen to John Hsu tomorrow after a long lapse!

NOW, my issue is w/ the 21 CD Brilliant box - just want to be selective, but for 126+ works which ones to choose? I went through the entire set on initial purchase years ago but did not notate my 'favorites' - SO, curious if anyone has made a list of their favorites? Would be fun for me to rip 2-3 dozen and put all on a MP3 (high bit rate) CD-R to just pop into my CD player and listen for a few hours. Any help will be appreciated - thanks. Dave :)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71jmsIvdFFL._SL1000_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51zHP-rPV-L.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41-nMRZKW8L.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51XSQQ0MVML.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/5157FR4B8RL.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71Jc8pRfslL._SL1500_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 05, 2020, 05:40:37 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on March 05, 2020, 02:37:55 PM
Well, I've been going through the last 20 or so pages of the thread - thanks to Gurn for his wonderful and informative blog posts! 8)

Today, I started a perusal of my Haydn Collection (numbers second only to the Bach clan!) - will likely be culling our duplicates or triplicates and adding and replacing - first up on the list are my Baryton CDs - currently own the selections below (although looking on Amazon today, other recordings seem to have appeared!) - have always loved the Ricecar recordings; will listen to John Hsu tomorrow after a long lapse!

NOW, my issue is w/ the 21 CD Brilliant box - just want to be selective, but for 126+ works which ones to choose? I went through the entire set on initial purchase years ago but did not notate my 'favorites' - SO, curious if anyone has made a list of their favorites? Would be fun for me to rip 2-3 dozen and put all on a MP3 (high bit rate) CD-R to just pop into my CD player and listen for a few hours. Any help will be appreciated - thanks. Dave :)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71jmsIvdFFL._SL1000_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51zHP-rPV-L.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41-nMRZKW8L.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51XSQQ0MVML.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/5157FR4B8RL.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71Jc8pRfslL._SL1500_.jpg)

Hey, Dave! That's a nice collection of Baryton works. Bigger than most, so you have some choices.

(https://i.imgur.com/cAKUzj0.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/WPUj9VU.jpg)

I have found it to be too difficult to pick out specific trios to listen to. I usually listen to a whole disk at a time. Well, the octets of course, which I like all of them, the Ricercar disks and the Huss disks (in the 'Music for Esterhazy & Naples box) are the top contenders for me. For the Trios, my 2 favorite disks are the Balestracci/Ricercar, which I usually rec to people with the caveat "if you don't like this disk, then don't even bother listening to the trios". :D The other one I especially like is the Netherlands Baryton Trio disk here.

If I was going to do what you are talking about, taking maybe 2 or 3 dozen trios and ripping them to an MP3 disk, I would take those 5 disks you have (they are all very good), eliminate the duplicates (but keep the version off the disk you like best), then see how many you have. Fill it out with random choices from the complete set. I guarantee you will be happy with what you end up with. The situation simply doesn't lend itself to a whole lot of picking and choosing. Anything higher then #30 or so and the quality overall evens out. which then leaves the playing.

The reason I am confident in this method is because earlier this year, I did the same thing myself and I was happy. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 06, 2020, 07:52:19 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 05, 2020, 05:40:37 PM
Hey, Dave! That's a nice collection of Baryton works. Bigger than most, so you have some choices.

(https://i.imgur.com/cAKUzj0.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/WPUj9VU.jpg)

I have found it to be too difficult to pick out specific trios to listen to. I usually listen to a whole disk at a time. Well, the octets of course, which I like all of them, the Ricercar disks and the Huss disks (in the 'Music for Esterhazy & Naples box) are the top contenders for me. For the Trios, my 2 favorite disks are the Balestracci/Ricercar, which I usually rec to people with the caveat "if you don't like this disk, then don't even bother listening to the trios". :D The other one I especially like is the Netherlands Baryton Trio disk here.

If I was going to do what you are talking about, taking maybe 2 or 3 dozen trios and ripping them to an MP3 disk, I would take those 5 disks you have (they are all very good), eliminate the duplicates (but keep the version off the disk you like best), then see how many you have. Fill it out with random choices from the complete set. I guarantee you will be happy with what you end up with. The situation simply doesn't lend itself to a whole lot of picking and choosing. Anything higher then #30 or so and the quality overall evens out. which then leaves the playing.

The reason I am confident in this method is because earlier this year, I did the same thing myself and I was happy. :D

Hi Gurn - thanks for prompt response and suggestions - agree w/ your comments and have listened to the all of my recordings not in the BIG BOX - and would be nice to have a 'mixture' of the trios w/ the octets - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 06, 2020, 10:18:53 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on March 06, 2020, 07:52:19 AM
Hi Gurn - thanks for prompt response and suggestions - agree w/ your comments and have listened to the all of my recordings not in the BIG BOX - and would be nice to have a 'mixture' of the trios w/ the octets - Dave :)

Even though I have several disks which you don't have, I discovered, while putting together one complete trio set, that it was impossible to do without dipping into the Big Box. Just so many! If you are curious about the number of tiny bits in the big box (15-20 seconds long), even though they don't say, I can almost certainly tell you that what they did, since the music definitely existed at one time, was to play the incipits which Haydn wrote in the Entwurf Katalog as he composed them. These would be the pieces for solo or duet, music which would be greatly appreciated today! :(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 06, 2020, 04:03:01 PM

I think it's time to tackle the piano sonatas. Which is the best PI cycle (playing and sound of the fortepiano)?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on March 06, 2020, 04:09:25 PM

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on March 06, 2020, 04:03:01 PM
I think it's time to tackle the piano sonatas. Which is the best PI cycle (playing and sound of the fortepiano)?

I have Brautigam and Beghin. Both are good enough that I could suggest either one. Both include the non sonata works as well.

But I don't recall who else has done it. Bart van Oort did the non sonata works for Brilliant; that set is good, but I have no idea who did the sonatas for them.
ETA
Found the Brilliant set. It's a multi performer set, with van Oort contributing 2 CDs.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61f-P4r2WOL.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 06, 2020, 06:58:15 PM

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on March 06, 2020, 04:03:01 PM
I think it's time to tackle the piano sonatas. Which is the best PI cycle (playing and sound of the fortepiano)?

This is a larger question than it seems, as you can tell from the first reply you got. AFAIK, I have pretty much every PI Haydn keyboard disk, and I can put the full cycles into two main categories: those on fortepiano only, and those on a variety of instruments.

The fortepiano only sets are Brautigam, Odiaga and Brilliant. I won't try and dissuade you from any of those, they are all good and very enjoyable to listen to. My personal favorite among them is Odiaga, she has a nice-sounding fortepiano which she plays exceptionally well. She has a lighter touch than Brautigam, which I prefer in Haydn (who wrote all of his keyboard works for women, after all). The Oort et al set is also very well played, although it is hard for me to feel continuity with 5 different players, albeit very good players indeed! The only comment I will make, which applies equally to all of them, is that during the composition of the first 3/4 of these works, Haydn didn't have a fortepiano and perhaps didn't really know enough about them to make any sort of decision about how to write for one.

The other sort of set, represented by Beghin and Schornsheim, uses a variety of keyboards, each of them chosen to be most appropriate for the music. The Beghin set is really quite fascinating with all that is going on. Beghin is a musicologist as well as a musician, and he gives you almost too much information to handle. I like that! In addition, he attempts, and as far as I know, succeeds in giving you an accurate representation of playing as it was done at the time. If you don't believe in that premise, so be it. There are dozens of extant books (tutors) from the time, if you can play and read, you can learn how to play as they did.

Schornsheim is more laid back. I am very fond of her set, she includes some works which Beghin leaves out because they haven't been 100% verified. She has some really nice sounding instruments too, especially her harpsichord. If I had to rescue one box from a disaster, it would probably be that one. Although, I have all of them ripped to FLAC, so maybe I'll just grab my external hard drive instead... :)

8)

PS - What I have done in my own "full set" is pick out singles from ~20 different players/instruments. I'm quite happy with that. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 06, 2020, 07:05:54 PM

Apropos topic for me - just starting a close perusal of my Haydn collection and have accumulated a lot of duplication and triplication (and even more in certain genres) - regarding the Keyboard Sonatas on period instruments, I own the 3 sets below; also have Bart van Oort in the non-sonata works on fortepiano and Ekaterina Derzhavina on modern piano - looking forward to comments & recommendations. Dave :)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51wYXTIqpNL.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41Ej4uzvCsL.jpg) (https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODAwMzgxOS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwidG9Gb3JtYXQiOiJqcGVnIiwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX19LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NTd9)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 06, 2020, 07:26:24 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 06, 2020, 06:58:15 PM
This is a larger question than it seems, as you can tell from the first reply you got. AFAIK, I have pretty much every PI Haydn keyboard disk, and I can put the full cycles into two main categories: those on fortepiano only, and those on a variety of instruments.

The fortepiano only sets are Brautigam, Odiaga and Brilliant. I won't try and dissuade you from any of those, they are all good and very enjoyable to listen to. My personal favorite among them is Odiaga, she has a nice-sounding fortepiano which she plays exceptionally well. She has a lighter touch than Brautigam, which I prefer in Haydn (who wrote all of his keyboard works for women, after all)...............

........................................

Hi Gurn - thanks for your comments on the PI sets - in all honesty, I've never heard of Lola Odiaga, although just read about her (impressive credentials!) - did you purchase the single discs (about a half dozen on Amazon USA) or is/was there a box? Now, she is available on Spotify (pic below), so I'll take a listen. Dave :)
.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-Cqvx7sS/0/599bddd2/O/OdiagaHaydn.png)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on March 07, 2020, 01:53:23 AM

These three sets + more would be more than enough for most people as far as keyboard Haydn is concerned. If you can find them, there are three discs with Staier on fortepiano that are different (and a little more lively/extrovert, I'd say) from Schornsheim, but I have heard only one disc of Brautigam and none of Beghin. With modern instruments, Dershavina is quite special and I am not sure if there is a clearly superior set. There was a very cheap one by Piazzini (Arte Nova) that was pretty good, but Derszhavina is IMO superior. Another cheap rather uneven one (including some clangy sound) by Walid Akl on Discover.
The best additions would be probably some anthologies by famous pianists, such as 2-3 with Richter (live, I think) and the quirky but interesting late sonatas with Gould.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2020, 06:25:29 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on March 06, 2020, 07:05:54 PM
Apropos topic for me - just starting a close perusal of my Haydn collection and have accumulated a lot of duplication and triplication (and even more in certain genres) - regarding the Keyboard Sonatas on period instruments, I own the 3 sets below; also have Bart van Oort in the non-sonata works on fortepiano and Ekaterina Derzhavina on modern piano - looking forward to comments & recommendations. Dave :)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51wYXTIqpNL.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41Ej4uzvCsL.jpg) (https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODAwMzgxOS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwidG9Gb3JtYXQiOiJqcGVnIiwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX19LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NTd9)

Quote from: SonicMan46 on March 06, 2020, 07:26:24 PM
Hi Gurn - thanks for your comments on the PI sets - in all honesty, I've never heard of Lola Odiaga, although just read about her (impressive credentials!) - did you purchase the single discs (about a half dozen on Amazon USA) or is/was there a box? Now, she is available on Spotify (pic below), so I'll take a listen. Dave :)
.
(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-Cqvx7sS/0/599bddd2/O/OdiagaHaydn.png)

Well, Dave, I have to tell you that in my opinion, you have everything you need right there! If you want to pursue the Odiaga (which is very nice, although I would call optional given what you already have). There is no box. I would start at BRO. They were recently selling Albany (TROY) disks at $1 each, and in fact, I am almost sure that Albany is the company that now owns BRO. Not sure how that all worked out. Anyway, there are also 3 disks which began that series on a different label, Titanic (yeah, seriously), which I got at AMP for relatively pennies, to give me the complete set.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 07, 2020, 08:22:48 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2020, 06:25:29 AM

Well, Dave, I have to tell you that in my opinion, you have everything you need right there! If you want to pursue the Odiaga (which is very nice, although I would call optional given what you already have). There is no box. I would start at BRO. They were recently selling Albany (TROY) disks at $1 each, and in fact, I am almost sure that Albany is the company that now owns BRO. Not sure how that all worked out. Anyway, there are also 3 disks which began that series on a different label, Titanic (yeah, seriously), which I got at AMP for relatively pennies, to give me the complete set.

8)

Thanks again Gurn - last night and this morning, I listened to the first 3 discs of Lola Odiaga on Spotify - enjoyable, but as already stated I'm trying to cull out recordings from my collection to recover some 'living space' ;) So, those 3 boxes should serve me well.

BTW - just checked BRO, and they have 5 Odiaga CDs selling for about 2 bucks each - I'm not going to bite this time, but others just getting into these Papa Haydn sonatas and wanting to start a collection might look there (of course, if an option - shipping is cheap in the USA). Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 07, 2020, 11:04:16 AM

Today, I've been perusing my small Haydn flute collection along w/ the Hoboken catalogue to determine what Haydn really wrote and what may have been attributed to him - at the moment, I own the 3 CDs shown below (top), and at the bottom is a listing of Papa's flute works that I constructed from the Hob. listings, including my additions of how the recordings fit into the catalogue.

The Kuijken recorded 'Six Trios' which are IV:6-11 meant for 2 violins + cello or as they did flute + violin + cello; Camerata Köln recorded two parts of the catalog, as shown. Pahud and his Berlin group have an 'olio' of works - the first, Michael Haydn's 'Flute Concerto' in D which was attributed to his brother Joseph, although the latter may have written a similar one in D that has been lost; then the six 'Scherzando (Hob.II:33-38); and finally the spurious Haydn 'Flute Concerto' written by Leopold Hoffman - so bottom line in my mind is that Papa Joe has no extant flute concertos. Well, all in a day's work - :laugh: Dave :)

P.S. what about the 'Flute Quartets' (Hob.II:D9-11; II:G4) - cannot find 'in print' CD recordings - anyone; presume early works?

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/417E6B0WC9L.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41EG6S5G1CL.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/511Ctupr%2B8L.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51dipt5jE9L.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-z9PzWZJ/0/ef93a602/X2/Haydn_Flute-X2.png)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2020, 12:14:18 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on March 07, 2020, 11:04:16 AM
Today, I've been perusing my small Haydn flute collection along w/ the Hoboken catalogue to determine what Haydn really wrote and what may have been attributed to him - at the moment, I own the 3 CDs shown below (top), and at the bottom is a listing of Papa's flute works that I constructed from the Hob. listings, including my additions of how the recordings fit into the catalogue.

The Kuijken recorded 'Six Trios' which are IV:6-11 meant for 2 violins + cello or as they did flute + violin + cello; Camerata Köln recorded two parts of the catalog, as shown. Pahud and his Berlin group have an 'olio' of works - the first, Michael Haydn's 'Flute Concerto' in D which was attributed to his brother Joseph, although the latter may have written a similar one in D that has been lost; then the six 'Scherzando (Hob.II:33-38); and finally the spurious Haydn 'Flute Concerto' written by Leopold Hoffman - so bottom line in my mind is that Papa Joe has no extant flute concertos. Well, all in a day's work - :laugh: Dave :)

P.S. what about the 'Flute Quartets' (Hob.II:D9-11; II:G4) - cannot find 'in print' CD recordings - anyone; presume early works?

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/417E6B0WC9L.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41EG6S5G1CL.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/511Ctupr%2B8L.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51dipt5jE9L.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-z9PzWZJ/0/ef93a602/X2/Haydn_Flute-X2.png)

Everything in Hoboken IV, # 1-11, is genuine Joseph Haydn flute music. Pretty much everything else is not. That pretty much simplifies things. :D During his Esterházy years, he didn't write much for flute because for most of that time he didn't have a flutist. Sometimes he would write a flute part and one of his 2 oboe players would play flute instead, a common thing in those days. I am guessing this is how Pahud justifies including those. I don't have that disk, so I don't know for sure.

(https://i.imgur.com/hicB6J2.jpg)

The Kuijken's also have this 2 disk set, which has the flute trios of Hob 4:1-4 that he wrote for Lord Abingdon in London. But the rest of it is called 'Opus 5' and is 2 genuine divertimentos for Flute, Oboe, 2 Violins & Cello (Hob 2:1 & 11). The remaining four may well have nothing to do with Haydn, just something the publisher strung together to make a dollar. Chances are nearly nil that Haydn even was aware of their existence.

That Camerata Köln disk is really nice, I like the Keyboard & Flute Trios on there too. Here are a couple of others you can probably stream and see if you like them, I do...

The Flute Trios Hob 4:6 thru 11 Interesting Backstory (https://tinyurl.com/y4st5ntj)
(https://i.imgur.com/BSMxkLl.jpg)

And this one for the Keyboard & Flute Trios
(https://i.imgur.com/rOLgLZk.jpg)

Anyway, AFAIK, there is no evidence whatsoever that J. Haydn ever wrote a flute concerto. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 07, 2020, 01:19:03 PM

Thanks for all the thoughts re the PI keyboard disks. I'll let you know what I decide to do.

:D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 07, 2020, 01:27:59 PM

Thanks Gurn for adding the details and for the link to your blog, excellent read as usual! My same conclusion about a supposed 'Flute Concerto' composed by Joe - thanks for showing the cover of the Kuijken boys w/ the 'Flute Quartets' - looking at the Amazon track listing, the same Hob. numbers as in my pic listings - the recording is available on Spotify, so will give that a listen later - Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2020, 01:36:30 PM

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on March 07, 2020, 01:19:03 PM
Thanks for all the thoughts re the PI keyboard disks. I'll let you know what I decide to do.

:D

Indeed, please do. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2020, 01:48:19 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on March 07, 2020, 01:27:59 PM
Thanks Gurn for adding the details and for the link to your blog, excellent read as usual! My same conclusion about a supposed 'Flute Concerto' composed by Joe - thanks for showing the cover of the Kuijken boys w/ the 'Flute Quartets' - looking at the Amazon track listing, the same Hob. numbers as in my pic listings - the recording is available on Spotify, so will give that a listen later - Dave :)

You're welcome, Dave. Now that I know you have Spotify, I will be less reticent about rec'ing stuff. I always hated putting disks out there people could never find (hated when people did it to me, too!), but when you can stream it, you're all set. There are 2 Kuijken Haydn sets, the one you pictured and the one I pictured. Yours has Hob 4:6-11 on it, plus 6 baryton trios arranged for flute. Even though Haydn didn't arrange those, I fully believe he knew about them, they were done as early as the 1770's. IIRC, you have this disk:

(https://i.imgur.com/VEmURii.jpg)

which was also arranged during in that time period, as were these for string trio:
(https://i.imgur.com/7nxTvxp.jpg)

All these different arrangements, and actually more, were published before Baryton trios were ever even heard of!

Back OT though, I'll look through the Hob 2 divertimentos, I know some others use flute, just like there are some that actually use clarinet!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 07, 2020, 02:40:17 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2020, 01:48:19 PM
You're welcome, Dave. Now that I know you have Spotify, I will be less reticent about rec'ing stuff. I always hated putting disks out there people could never find (hated when people did it to me, too!), but when you can stream it, you're all set. There are 2 Kuijken Haydn sets, the one you pictured and the one I pictured. Yours has Hob 4:6-11 on it, plus 6 baryton trios arranged for flute. Even though Haydn didn't arrange those, I fully believe he knew about them, they were done as early as the 1770's. IIRC, you have this disk:

(https://i.imgur.com/VEmURii.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/7nxTvxp.jpg) (https://direct.rhapsody.com/imageserver/images/alb.252492858/500x500.jpg)

which was also arranged during in that time period, as were these for string trio:

All these different arrangements, and actually more, were published before Baryton trios were ever even heard of!

Back OT though, I'll look through the Hob 2 divertimentos, I know some others use flute, just like there are some that actually use clarinet!

8)

Yep, I have that first CD shown (not the other one) - love Jean-Claude Veilhan and have a number of his recordings, including the one inserted above. I've been on Spotify for a number of years (part of my son's 'family plan') - have made dozens of playlists (a lot for Susan's pleasure to play on my den stereo during dinner) and preview a lot of recordings - BUT you're right, getting rid of CDs is not as painful as in the past (I donate to local charities/Goodwill/etc.) - if I make a 'mistake', well there is always Spotify (and of course others such as Apple or Amazon that one could be a subscriber) - streaming is killing the 'physical media' music industry, me thinks. Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2020, 02:53:09 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on March 07, 2020, 02:40:17 PM
Yep, I have that first CD shown (not the other one) - love Jean-Claude Veilhan and have a number of his recordings, including the one inserted above. I've been on Spotify for a number of years (part of my son's 'family plan') - have made dozens of playlists (a lot for Susan's pleasure to play on my den stereo during dinner) and preview a lot of recordings - BUT you're right, getting rid of CDs is not as painful as in the past (I donate to local charities/Goodwill/etc.) - if I make a 'mistake', well there is always Spotify (and of course others such as Apple or Amazon that one could be a subscriber) - streaming is killing the 'physical media' music industry, me thinks. Dave :)

I am very partial to Veilhan too. In fact, I was listening to this all afternoon:
(https://i.imgur.com/ZykDF3t.jpg)

Someone had a streaming thread here very recently. As I said there, I don't stream at all, but I now download FLAC's with PDF booklets instead of buying new CD's. Other than older disks which are not available as downloads, I have quit buying CD's. FYI, a fine source for FLAC albums is Presto Classics over in England. They have a great selection. Usually $12 for an album, however, they often have sales, like right now, Ricercar are 40% off. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 07, 2020, 03:05:52 PM

Papa Joe's Notturni, Lyra Concertos, etc. for the King of Naples and Others!

Well, now reviewing the 3 recordings below (Huss is a 6-CD set) - much was composed for the King of Naples (Ferdinand IV), especially the Notturni & Lyra Concertos; the middle left image shows listings from the Hoboken catalog of those compositions; for me, the most fascinating instrument is the Lyra Organizzata, basically an 'organ hurdy-gurdy' (described in the quote - source Victoria & Albert Museum - an original there is shown in the middle right image). In the Coin recording, 2 Lyres are used in but 2 of the six tracks (why not more!) - these were reconstructed instruments (bottom two pics - Source (https://anchaesmicasa.wordpress.com/2012/03/16/haydn-nocturno-para-dos-liras-organizadas-y-otros-instrumentos-mas-normalitos/)). All of the 'Lyra Concertos' are present on one of the Huss discs but wind instruments are substituted for the lyres. Dave :)

QuoteThe organ hurdy-gurdy (or lira organizzata) developed in the mid 18th century from a hurdy-gurdy fitted to organ pipes. A leading player of this instrument was Ferdinand IV, King of Naples (reigned 1759-1825), for whom Josef Haydn (1732-1809) composed music. This example was reputedly assembled by an unnamed Frenchman living in London. A hurdy-gurdy of about 1650 was fixed to the organ works, which were probably made about one hundred years later. The crank-handle which turns the hurdy-gurdy drone-wheel also activates the organ bellows. As well as the pipes at the front of the instrument, there is another set lying horizontally underneath the organ box.(Source (https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O58945/organ-hurdy-gurdy-unknown/))

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51NzGWeuRAL.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51N32FFRW4L.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/312ycdDARVL.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-cDWCvHb/0/7fed482b/X3/Lyra3-X3.png) (https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-f4SLvjQ/0/d50b790a/X2/Lyra4-X2.png)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-2DtDWBg/0/1749b48b/O/Lyra2.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-jH38d3D/0/e307164a/O/Lyra1.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2020, 05:30:34 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on March 07, 2020, 03:05:52 PM
Papa Joe's Notturni, Lyra Concertos, etc. for the King of Naples and Others!

Well, now reviewing the 3 recordings below (Huss is a 6-CD set) - much was composed for the King of Naples (Ferdinand IV), especially the Notturni & Lyra Concertos; the middle left image shows listings from the Hoboken catalog of those compositions; for me, the most fascinating instrument is the Lyra Organizzata, basically an 'organ hurdy-gurdy' (described in the quote - source Victoria & Albert Museum - an original there is shown in the middle right image). In the Coin recording, 2 Lyres are used in but 2 of the six tracks (why not more!) - these were reconstructed instruments (bottom two pics - Source (https://anchaesmicasa.wordpress.com/2012/03/16/haydn-nocturno-para-dos-liras-organizadas-y-otros-instrumentos-mas-normalitos/)). All of the 'Lyra Concertos' are present on one of the Huss discs but wind instruments are substituted for the lyres. Dave :)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51NzGWeuRAL.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51N32FFRW4L.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/312ycdDARVL.jpg)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-cDWCvHb/0/7fed482b/X3/Lyra3-X3.png) (https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-f4SLvjQ/0/d50b790a/X2/Lyra4-X2.png)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-2DtDWBg/0/1749b48b/O/Lyra2.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-jH38d3D/0/e307164a/O/Lyra1.jpg)

You need to be aware that Haydn rewrote the notturnos AND the concertos when he went to London. The L'Archibudelli disks are London scoring. Which is to say, there are no Lira in them, instead he uses a flute and an oboe to play those parts. Here is the whole story on the origin and scoring. The London notturnos (https://tinyurl.com/rhehmlo)

He also did this to the concertos. The reason is that he did all this is because he had promised a new piece of music for each concert, and as far as London was concerned, this was new music. But they weren't going to be able to play them with Liras, so there you go.

The Huss disks are also the London version, which sort of pisses me off because they distinctly call that album "Music for the King of Naples", which it is and it isn't. Still, great album.... :-\

But 'Delirium' and the second album, this one here:
(https://i.imgur.com/qJ87eWg.jpg)

both use Liras, although one of the notturnos on the Delirium album is the London version, I think it was done to show the difference.

Here's the story of the concertos Lira Concertos (https://tinyurl.com/uw4mvw7)

Don't forget this disk. Despite being on modern instruments, it is actually the correct scoring for the Naples version of 6 of the notturnos, correct in every way (even clarinet) except that Klocker uses a tiny organ positiv instead of Liras. FWIW, it sounds great, and is one of the few non-PI disks I recommend of Haydn music:

(https://i.imgur.com/QuE6CIL.jpg)

This is some of my favorite Haydn music, I like all of it, Naples or London. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 07, 2020, 07:49:48 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 07, 2020, 05:30:34 PM
You need to be aware that Haydn rewrote the notturnos AND the concertos when he went to London. The L'Archibudelli disks are London scoring. Which is to say, there are no Lira in them, instead he uses a flute and an oboe to play those parts. Here is the whole story on the origin and scoring. The London notturnos (https://tinyurl.com/rhehmlo)

He also did this to the concertos. The reason is that he did all this is because he had promised a new piece of music for each concert, and as far as London was concerned, this was new music. But they weren't going to be able to play them with Liras, so there you go.

The Huss disks are also the London version, which sort of pisses me off because they distinctly call that album "Music for the King of Naples", which it is and it isn't. Still, great album.... :-\

........both use Liras, although one of the notturnos on the Delirium album is the London version, I think it was done to show the difference.

Here's the story of the concertos Lira Concertos (https://tinyurl.com/uw4mvw7)

Don't forget this disk. Despite being on modern instruments, it is actually the correct scoring for the Naples version of 6 of the notturnos, correct in every way (even clarinet) except that Klocker uses a tiny organ positiv instead of Liras. FWIW, it sounds great, and is one of the few non-PI disks I recommend of Haydn music:

(https://i.imgur.com/QuE6CIL.jpg)

This is some of my favorite Haydn music, I like all of it, Naples or London. :)

8)

Thanks Gurn - I was already aware of the change of instrumentation in the L'Archibudelli and Huss recordings and the reasons - thanks for the links for the details - just hoping to bring others coming to the thread who might be 'new' to these recordings and to the 'organ hurdy-gurdy' - not sure if there might be other recordings w/ this instrument - seems sad to reconstruct two new 'lyra organizzata' and not use them for other performances?

As to the Klöcker, the disc was listed in my database but could not find it amongst my Haydn collection - will look again; remember enjoying and cannot imagine culling the disc out, not sure at the moment? Again, always enjoy reading your blog posts - much useful and informative insight. Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on March 08, 2020, 12:26:52 AM

I have the DeLirium, one disk of Huss and the Klöcker. The Klöcker is probably my favorite. The Notturni are somewhat surprisingly often more substantial music than the concertos.

Note that these works were the sources of at least three symphonic Haydn movements (although all of them were not only re-orchestrated but expanded in the adaption process), namely the "Romance" from #100 and the 2nd and 4th movement of #89.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 09, 2020, 09:03:02 AM

Keyboard Concerti - in the Hoboken catalog, Haydn has 11 KB Concerti listed (XVIII:1-11 - shown in the lower table); currently I own the 2 recordings imaged below - Brautigam performs Nos. 2,3,4,11 on fortepiano and Schornsheim 1-5,8,10,11 on organ (1,8,10), harpsichord (2,3,5) or fortepiano (4,11) - Nos. 6,7,9 are missing from my collection and neither disc includes modern piano. So, curious what others own and/or would recommend. Thanks. Dave :)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/411hdR2KdjL.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-2pBfDnp/0/c65c6533/O/Haydn_Schornsheim.png)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-vGmmLMp/0/9b0ab7ff/O/Haydn_KBWorks.png)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on March 09, 2020, 12:35:04 PM

I guess 6,7 and 9 are somewhat doubtful, therefore missing in some collections. Admittedly, I have not really collected these works and the only one I know well is the famous No 11. But I do have 9 with Knauer on Naxos (+3,4,11 on modern instruments), 6 (with Staier on historical instruments + 4 and 11) and 7 with Pletnev on modern piano (+4, 11, aslo twofer with sonatas). All of these should be readily available.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on March 09, 2020, 01:05:58 PM

(Mostly) Modern instruments
[asin]B001NZA0GK[/asin]
The concertos for lyra organizzato are performed in their woodwinds version (two recorders, two flutes, or flute and oboe)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 09, 2020, 01:16:39 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on March 09, 2020, 12:35:04 PM
I guess 6,7 and 9 are somewhat doubtful, therefore missing in some collections. Admittedly, I have not really collected these works and the only one I know well is the famous No 11. But I do have 9 with Knauer on Naxos (+3,4,11 on modern instruments), 6 (with Staier on historical instruments + 4 and 11) and 7 with Pletnev on modern piano (+4, 11, aslo twofer with sonatas). All of these should be readily available.

Thanks - in the box below (just shown in the previous post), all 11 KB concertos are listed at ArkivMusic (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=214782), although No. 6 is described as "Concerto for Keyboard and Violin in F major, H 18 no 6 by Franz Joseph Haydn" - will peruse Amazon to see what might be available on a modern piano (the recordings in the Naxos box use different instruments, including piano). Dave

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61z3E3YY%2BYL._SL1035_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on March 10, 2020, 01:16:15 AM

No.6 is a double concerto, not truly a keyboard concerto, so that's one reason why it often isn't present.

No.7 is parallel to a piano trio but with a different slow movement.

No.9 is doubtful.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 10, 2020, 11:03:14 AM

Haydn - Piano Trios - I own the first 3 box sets shown below (8 to 10 discs/box) - I use to have some of the Beaux Arts recordings, available in the box shown but decided that I liked the modern instrument group Haydn Trio Eisenstadt better, but a personal call since the revered older trio is often held up as the standard for these works. Trio 1790 & the Van Swieten Trio are period instrument groups; I've been listening to selective discs from my 3 boxes for a few days and have decided to keep all - personally, I feel that one MI & one PI set should be part of a Haydn collection, but that's just me; now, should I re-add the Beaux Arts Trio, probably not but others would likely disagree. Reviews attached for those interested. Dave :)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Njhxo7loL.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51VMS5SAR7L.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Jnf8J6QnL._SX355_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71ROxrSco0L._SL1400_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 10, 2020, 02:46:12 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on March 10, 2020, 11:03:14 AM
should I re-add the Beaux Arts Trio

You shouldn't have culled them in the first place. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 10, 2020, 03:57:59 PM

Quote from: Florestan on March 10, 2020, 02:46:12 PM
You shouldn't have culled them in the first place. ;D

Hi Andrei - well, there are just so many sets a septuagenarian can listen to of one of many composers - and if you've not heard the Haydn Trio Eisenstadt in these Trios, then the BRTrio has some stiff competition - :) Dave

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on March 10, 2020, 04:42:45 PM

Quote from: Florestan on March 10, 2020, 02:46:12 PM
You shouldn't have culled them in the first place. ;D

Flowers in vase FTW.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on March 10, 2020, 07:57:40 PM

I think you are fine with what you have now. BAT is good, but not so unique that they can't be done without.

If you want to expand your options, try these two CDs from Trio Wanderer
[asin]B079BJV362[/asin]
[asin]B001M5AT8A[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on March 11, 2020, 01:54:24 AM

I also think you are well-served with your Trio boxes. The Eisenstadt unfortunately went oop quickly but it is the only complete recording on modern instruments since the BeauxArts, so this is deplorable.
For something rather different, you could try one of the 4? or so discs on harmonia mundi with Cohen/Höbarth/Coin who are more slowly, lyrical, "Schubertian" than the 1790 or Swieten. There is also a good disc with late trios with Levin/Bylsma/Beths that might be the most lively and extrovert of the HIP offerings. Two more good single discs war with Schiff and friends

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on March 11, 2020, 02:51:41 AM

The Florestan Trio also did 2 discs on Hyperion.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 11, 2020, 06:39:04 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on March 11, 2020, 01:54:24 AM
I also think you are well-served with your Trio boxes. The Eisenstadt unfortunately went oop quickly but it is the only complete recording on modern instruments since the BeauxArts, so this is deplorable.
For something rather different, you could try one of the 4? or so discs on harmonia mundi with Cohen/Höbarth/Coin who are more slowly, lyrical, "Schubertian" than the 1790 or Swieten. There is also a good disc with late trios with Levin/Bylsma/Beths that might be the most lively and extrovert of the HIP offerings. Two more good single discs war with Schiff and friends

This is the same advice I would have given you. I like to think I have every HIP disk of the Trios, and the ones Jo mentions rise to the top. Actually, there are 6 disks in that "Mosaiques Trio" (my name, not theirs) set, although one of them is the 3 flute trio (15-17). Another excellent one is Trio Goya:

(https://i.imgur.com/aOgrepE.jpg)

Also, don't overlook the early ones. There are 2 disks in that Trio 1790 set, but there are also these, which are superbly played:

(https://i.imgur.com/AqWbUXI.jpg)

As it happens, I am a big fan of the early music, if you are too, this is one to have.

I don't know about any of the MI disks, I do have some by those same players (Florestan, Wanderer etc.) on newer music, like Schubert & Dvorak, and their playing is excellent, so I would expect nothing less in their Haydn. As for your BAT question, if I collected disks for their historic value, that's a box I wouldn't be without. Is that a politic enough reply for you? :D :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 11, 2020, 07:51:19 AM

Thanks All for the comments and suggestions on the Piano Trios - I did listen to Trio Wanderer on Spotify and enjoyed - will likely also listen to the others, if available (however, cannot find the two CDs mentioned by Gurn there, unfortunately). Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 11, 2020, 10:48:25 AM

Haydn & Others - Trumpet Concertos - amazed that I've accumulated so many but Papa Joe wrote just one, so combination w/ other trumpet works (or other instruments as in the Pinnock) makes for interesting mixes, although Hummel seems to be a common choice - I've been adding these to my collection, probably starting w/ Marsalis shortly after buying my first CD player (1984) - now there are plenty of other options - this mix includes both modern trumpets and the older keyed instruments; reviews attached. Dave :)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61Bsa8bTXuL._SL1000_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71X3EKfoBBL._SL1200_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51f46KvXauL.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91XM-C1cJHL._SL1411_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81LIi5yh%2BgL._SX522_.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-Rb7WHkh/0/016533ce/O/Haydn_Trumpet.png)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on March 11, 2020, 10:59:32 AM

I always tend to forget how many " Trio Mosaiques" (Cohen, Höbarth, Coin) discs there are because I have only one (12-14; I had another one I got rid of during some slim down phase because it was three late trios I had so many recordings of). They are certainly different with there warm luxurious sound and leisurely tempi whereas 1790 and Swieten Trio are not that different from each other (with the obvious exception that the former plays the first dozen or so with harpsichord like Asperen et al.)

I am quite satisfied with what I have although it is somewhat disappointing that most anthologies focus on the same handful of late trios. I have the Van Swieten and most (6 of 8) of the 1790 as well as the two discs with Schiff & friends, the Wanderer 43-45, the Levin/Beths/Bylsma, two with the Eisenstadt (in their earlier single discs issues, a nice mix of pieces from different periods), one with the Brahms-Trio Weimar (a ca. 1980 GDR recording and a sentimental favorite) and about two more one-disc-recitals with the Abegg-Trio and the Trio Fontenay

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 11, 2020, 03:29:22 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on March 11, 2020, 10:59:32 AM
I always tend to forget how many " Trio Mosaiques" (Cohen, Höbarth, Coin) discs there are because I have only one (12-14; I had another one I got rid of during some slim down phase because it was three late trios I had so many recordings of). They are certainly different with there warm luxurious sound and leisurely tempi whereas 1790 and Swieten Trio are not that different from each other (with the obvious exception that the former plays the first dozen or so with harpsichord like Asperen et al.)

I am quite satisfied with what I have although it is somewhat disappointing that most anthologies focus on the same handful of late trios. I have the Van Swieten and most (6 of 8) of the 1790 as well as the two discs with Schiff & friends, the Wanderer 43-45, the Levin/Beths/Bylsma, two with the Eisenstadt (in their earlier single discs issues, a nice mix of pieces from different periods), one with the Brahms-Trio Weimar (a ca. 1980 GDR recording and a sentimental favorite) and about two more one-disc-recitals with the Abegg-Trio and the Trio Fontenay

Jo, here is another of the late Trios, possibly the best of the bunch, although that is always subject to personal opinion:
(https://i.imgur.com/JcUTlTG.jpg)

I don't consider the Trio 1790 & the Van Swieten's to be equivalent, I feel like 1790 have more élan in their performances than any other group I've heard. There again, that's just me. Of those you've listed (other than L'Archibudelli, 1790 and Van Swieten) are any of them PI? I'm thinking not, although the Schiff could be. If so, then I've missed one... :o

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on March 11, 2020, 07:08:59 PM

Mention of Trio Fontenay jogged my memory. I have this set (OOP apparently)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/813iHZFTWML.jpg)
Manze, ter Linden, Mathot do Hob. XV:9-12.
Helasvuo [flute], Kartunnen, Hakkila do Hob. XV:15-17.
Trio Fontenay do Hob. XV:18/21/25/30, the only MI CD in this set.
The first two CDs in the set are the recordings by Asperen and company that Gurn showed.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on March 12, 2020, 12:47:26 AM

No, Schiff is on modern instrument.
I think he did one Schubert Trio on a fortepiano but the two Haydn discs are modern. As for the Fontenay, I have it as an oddball Ultima twofer with an early recording of two quartets (Rider and Kaiser) with the ABQ. AFAIR I liked it quite a bit, especially because the A major #18 is a special favorite of mine while I could do well with only half of my recordings of the "gypsy" trio #25.

as for 1790 vs. Van Swieten, I used to find the differences rather small, at times not being too happy with the fortepiano sound of the former. In any case the Van Swieten (with van Oort on keyboard) is very competitive for the bargain price.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on March 12, 2020, 01:22:09 AM

I'm making notes about some of the modern instrument versions for future sampling (I already have the Florestan Trio discs I mentioned but would like more works).

With the best will in the world I can't abide the period piano of groups like Van Swieten or Trio 1790 (I just tried again with iTunes samples). I'd rather have a harpsichord if anything.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on March 12, 2020, 02:18:12 AM

You may not like them either but the Cohen/Höbarth/Coin does sound quite different although it is obviously still clearly a fortepiano sound.

One "problem" with many 1-2 disc anthologies is that they focus on a small number of works, mostly the 4 late trios Hob. 27-30 and the omnipresent "gypsy" #25. The Schiff & friends has the e minor #12 (someone who does not want all the early trios, should start about here) and #14 (in A flat) which earns them a higher recommendation from me than some others. Their two discs are on Aussie eloquence so quite cheap as well. Note that #11-14 are not actually early, they were written in the lat 1780s, after the "Paris symphonies" and everything from #18 on is about contemporary with the "London symphonies", so the last ca. 15 trios must be considered late Haydn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on March 12, 2020, 02:43:42 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on March 12, 2020, 02:18:12 AM
You may not like them either but the Cohen/Höbarth/Coin does sound quite different although it is obviously still clearly a fortepiano sound.

I did try one of their albums as well. It was admittedly less jangly than some. I would still much prefer a modern piano in this context.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on March 12, 2020, 05:29:17 AM

Interestingly, Naxos who had complete Haydn piano sonatas, quartets and symphonies already in the lat 90s or early 2000s has not a cycle of his trios. For modern instruments the Beaux Arts is still the main complete recording as the more recent Eisenstadt Trio is not available anymore (I think). I wonder if the latter sold so poorly that they did not bother keeping it in the catalogue. tbh, by the 2-3 discs I have I don't think the Eisenstadt is up there with the very best (they can be a bit bland) but it is good and in modern good sound.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 12, 2020, 06:38:58 AM

Quote from: JBS on March 11, 2020, 07:08:59 PM
Mention of Trio Fontenay jogged my memory. I have this set (OOP apparently)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/813iHZFTWML.jpg)
Manze, ter Linden, Mathot do Hob. XV:9-12.
Helasvuo [flute], Kartunnen, Hakkila do Hob. XV:15-17.
Trio Fontenay do Hob. XV:18/21/25/30, the only MI CD in this set.
The first two CDs in the set are the recordings by Asperen and company that Gurn showed.

Isn't it interesting that the whole box is PI except that one disk, yet there are numerous disks that THEY OWN, with the same repertoire on them? I like the Fontenay's, I have them nicely playing Mendelssohn, for example, it is just odd to me. FWIW, I have all of those other disks, and they are commendable. Perhaps oddly, I like the Manze, ter Linden, Mathot disk as much or more than any of the others.

(https://i.imgur.com/I6y0IGo.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 12, 2020, 06:57:52 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on March 12, 2020, 12:47:26 AM
No, Schiff is on modern instrument.
I think he did one Schubert Trio on a fortepiano but the two Haydn discs are modern. As for the Fontenay, I have it as an oddball Ultima twofer with an early recording of two quartets (Rider and Kaiser) with the ABQ. AFAIR I liked it quite a bit, especially because the A major #18 is a special favorite of mine while I could do well with only half of my recordings of the "gypsy" trio #25.

as for 1790 vs. Van Swieten, I used to find the differences rather small, at times not being too happy with the fortepiano sound of the former. In any case the Van Swieten (with van Oort on keyboard) is very competitive for the bargain price.

Ah, OK, haven't missed anything then. Actually, the Schiff Schubert is MI also, I have that set.
(https://i.imgur.com/AiP2LjS.jpg)

and it's really quite good, although not on a par (for me) with La Gaia Scienza. Schiff has a really nice Schubert set on solo pianoforte slowly coming out, I have the first couple of volumes, much to my delight. So in short, you never know what you're gonna get with Schiff! :)

On the 1790/Swieten question; sound of the instruments is too subjective a criterion, so I won't debate it. However, I really like the playing of Harald Hören, I think he doesn't receive enough credit for some of his efforts.

This is another disk not mentioned so far, which I find to be very entertaining:

(https://i.imgur.com/5jFgGUI.jpg)

They play Hob 22-23 & 26 in a most entertaining manner.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mookalafalas on March 18, 2020, 01:59:35 AM

One of my favorite pianists is Reine Gianoli. She was part of a French trio that that cut five disks of the Haydn Piano Trios in the mid-70s. Actually, Gianoli only plays on the first half. They are definitely not hip. Nor do they try to be vigorous and exciting. They go for clarity, celebrating the various lines, and the enjoying playful charm of the music. Universal France rereleased the set in 2004. I don't know if it is available for streaming anywhere, but they might be an alternative for anyone not quite finding what they are looking for in the more commonly available versions.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on March 18, 2020, 02:48:24 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 12, 2020, 06:57:52 AM
Ah, OK, haven't missed anything then. Actually, the Schiff Schubert is MI also, I have that set.
(https://i.imgur.com/AiP2LjS.jpg)

Interesting. Schiff also recorded the last 8 piano trios for Decca with Shiokawa and Pergamenschikow.

https://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Piano-Trios-Vol-1/dp/B0007MR2CU
https://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Piano-Trios-Vol-2/dp/B0007MR2DO

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51EGs-l3meL.jpg)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51srpNob2gL._SX450_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on March 18, 2020, 09:20:15 AM

Yes, I mentioned them above and also the Schubert because I had misremember that Schiff used a historical fortepiano in the latter. These Haydn Trio recordings would be my first recommendation for someone who prefers modern instruments and does not want to go for a complete cycle (and there's only the Beaux Arts for that as the Eisenstadt Trio has been oop for years). Technically, it's not the last 8 trios but the last 6 and two earlier ones (12 and 14).

I have not heard the 2nd Trio Wanderer disc but their older disc (with only well known trios) is very good and this more recent one has a fantastic choice of works although a bit of overlap with the Schiff et amici. Still, all Trios from Hob XV 11 upwards are great and it's hard to find some of them on modern instruments.

[asin]B079BJV362[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vers la flamme on March 22, 2020, 01:34:22 PM

I just noticed something: this thread has 608 pages. That's amazing! If any composer wrote enough music to discuss over hundreds of pages, it's Haydn. Surely one of the greatest composers of all time.

I'm currently listening to the Harnoncourt/RCO recording of the "Miracle" symphony. Love it! Harnoncourt has a way of making Haydn's symphonies sound really expansive, he makes them sound bigger than Beethoven, but in a convincing way that doesn't sound like he's forcing anything. I should hear more of these recordings.

Need to get back into Haydn in a major way, I've been neglecting his music lately.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 22, 2020, 02:35:07 PM

Quote from: vers la flamme on March 22, 2020, 01:34:22 PM
I just noticed something: this thread has 608 pages. That's amazing! If any composer wrote enough music to discuss over hundreds of pages, it's Haydn. Surely one of the greatest composers of all time.

I'm currently listening to the Harnoncourt/RCO recording of the "Miracle" symphony. Love it! Harnoncourt has a way of making Haydn's symphonies sound really expansive, he makes them sound bigger than Beethoven, but in a convincing way that doesn't sound like he's forcing anything. I should hear more of these recordings.

Need to get back into Haydn in a major way, I've been neglecting his music lately.

There's always something to talk about with Haydn, and we welcome everyone here. As for Harnoncourt, he is one of my favorites in Haydn, I prefer his Haydn to his Mozart, for example. If you have been down a lot of musical roads since you first heard Haydn, revisiting might be a surprise for you: a lot of those musical roads started in Eisenstadt... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on March 22, 2020, 02:37:29 PM

I think the Haydn recordings Harnoncourt made with the Concentus musicus are even more convincing. The "Paris" set has some mannerisms but is also unique and in very good sound. The 3 earlier discs (Teldec/warner) with early/middle symphonies are all among my favorites (30, 31, 45, 59, 60, 53, 69, 73)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vers la flamme on March 22, 2020, 03:41:31 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on March 22, 2020, 02:37:29 PM
I think the Haydn recordings Harnoncourt made with the Concentus musicus are even more convincing. The "Paris" set has some mannerisms but is also unique and in very good sound. The 3 earlier discs (Teldec/warner) with early/middle symphonies are all among my favorites (30, 31, 45, 59, 60, 53, 69, 73)

I have two Harnoncourt/CMW recordings: The Seven Last Words, and the Missa in tempore belli, the latter of which I just picked up last weekend in the budget bin at a local bookstore. Haven't really spent time with either; I ought to change that soon.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 22, 2020, 02:35:07 PM
There's always something to talk about with Haydn, and we welcome everyone here. As for Harnoncourt, he is one of my favorites in Haydn, I prefer his Haydn to his Mozart, for example. If you have been down a lot of musical roads since you first heard Haydn, revisiting might be a surprise for you: a lot of those musical roads started in Eisenstadt... :)

8)

Well, Gurn, I appreciate the warm welcome–back. :) I go in and out of phases of Haydn-obsession, but have not overall delved all too deep into his music. I have heard the London symphonies, the Paris symphonies, the few symphonies in between, a handful of the string quartets, and an even smaller handful of the piano trios—that's about it. With his birthday coming up I suspect I will end up binging a bit through some of what I have, and hopefully hear something new. For instance I've become curious about Haydn's Lieder and operas lately. Any lovers of his work in these genres, here?

PS. In a recent discussion here on the Haydn piano trios, I noticed that no one mentioned the Vienna Piano Trio recordings on Nimbus. Any fans here? I have one of their CDs and love it. Got it cheaply on Amazon.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 22, 2020, 06:16:20 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on March 22, 2020, 02:37:29 PM
I think the Haydn recordings Harnoncourt made with the Concentus musicus are even more convincing. The "Paris" set has some mannerisms but is also unique and in very good sound. The 3 earlier discs (Teldec/warner) with early/middle symphonies are all among my favorites (30, 31, 45, 59, 60, 53, 69, 73)

Agreed, all around. The 'Paris' set is among my favorites. Their 'Creation' is also first-rate.

Quote from: vers la flamme on March 22, 2020, 03:41:31 PM

Well, Gurn, I appreciate the warm welcome–back. :) I go in and out of phases of Haydn-obsession, but have not overall delved all too deep into his music. I have heard the London symphonies, the Paris symphonies, the few symphonies in between, a handful of the string quartets, and an even smaller handful of the piano trios—that's about it. With his birthday coming up I suspect I will end up binging a bit through some of what I have, and hopefully hear something new. For instance I've become curious about Haydn's Lieder and operas lately. Any lovers of his work in these genres, here?

PS. In a recent discussion here on the Haydn piano trios, I noticed that no one mentioned the Vienna Piano Trio recordings on Nimbus. Any fans here? I have one of their CDs and love it. Got it cheaply on Amazon.

I am a big fan of Haydn's Lieder, both the German ones from the early 1780's and the English 'Canzonettas' of the 1790's. Here is a disk I recommend to you. I know you aren't a period instruments fan, but sometimes you just have to overlook some stuff in order to get a solid, convincing performance. This is especially true when we are talking about chamber music, which these most certainly are.

(https://i.imgur.com/HxcDjlx.jpg)

I haven't ever seen the Vienna Piano Trio disks, but something I have learned over the years is this: with music the quality of the pianoforte trios, there may be peculiarities from performance to performance which attract or repel you, but by and large, there are no sucky recordings. I have every period instrument recording of these works extant, and on any given day I am subject to play any one of them with pleasure. It is the music which really matters to me. Of course, this isn't true of all music, but it certainly is with these! :)

Recordings of Haydn's operas are thin on the ground. I think I have all the recordings, and I know I have all the operas. Orlando paladino by Harnoncourt is one I would recommend:

(https://i.imgur.com/XXgJZ3y.jpg)

Excellent singing and playing!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 23, 2020, 01:44:34 PM

Oratorios - The Creation & The Seasons - new arrival, The Seasons w/ René Jacobs - now I listen to Papa's Oratorios rarely but now have accumulated the recordings shown below:

The Seasons - listening to my new addition at the moment, i.e. Jacobs and enjoying - not sure that I need Kuijken (but a fan of La Peitie Bande in other Haydn recordings owned w/ them); also curious if there are any 'English' recordings of this work worth exploring?

The Creation - like Paul McCreesh w/ performances in English; not sure that I need both of the other two, and Gardiner has been a favorite for many years.

So, any comments? Recommendations as to performance languages preferred (and in all honestly, hearing some of the biblical words and seasonal poetry in English is not my 'thing' - ;)) - thanks all. Dave :)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/618HWGlPNiL._SL1200_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71z0fLJRMhL._SL1058_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/513ZlGpuUdL.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51EEQeimGhL.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91vMdnDKF-L._SL1500_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on March 23, 2020, 01:57:19 PM

The only English language version of the Seasons I see on Amazon is
[asin]B01MTBYWFK[/asin]
I am pretty sure I have it, but am too lazy to check.

My initial reaction is that, unless you want an "old school" recording like that from Bernstein or Karajan, you are well set with what you have. The McCreesh is my favorite Creation in either language.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on March 23, 2020, 03:07:35 PM

Quote from: JBS on March 23, 2020, 01:57:19 PM
The only English language version of the Seasons I see on Amazon is
[asin]B01MTBYWFK[/asin]
I am pretty sure I have it, but am too lazy to check.

My initial reaction is that, unless you want an "old school" recording like that from Bernstein or Karajan, you are well set with what you have. The McCreesh is my favorite Creation in either language.

The Beecham is in English, but is very old-fashioned, of course.

[asin] B00D56AD9O[/asin][asin] B00G2K8S3S[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: André on March 23, 2020, 03:23:21 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on March 23, 2020, 01:44:34 PM
Oratorios - The Creation & The Seasons - new arrival, The Seasons w/ René Jacobs - now I listen to Papa's Oratorios rarely but now have accumulated the recordings shown below:

The Seasons - listening to my new addition at the moment, i.e. Jacobs and enjoying - not sure that I need Kuijken (but a fan of La Peitie Bande in other Haydn recordings owned w/ them); also curious if there are any 'English' recordings of this work worth exploring?

The Creation - like Paul McCreesh w/ performances in English; not sure that I need both of the other two, and Gardiner has been a favorite for many years.

So, any comments? Recommendations as to performance languages preferred (and in all honestly, hearing some of the biblical words and seasonal poetry in English is not my 'thing' - ;)) - thanks all. Dave :)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/618HWGlPNiL._SL1200_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71z0fLJRMhL._SL1058_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/513ZlGpuUdL.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51EEQeimGhL.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91vMdnDKF-L._SL1500_.jpg)

The McCreesh and Spering versions of Creation - or Die Schöpfung, since I prefer it in German - are excellent. So are those by Christie and Griffiths, all with PI or in period style. I don't know the Gardiner. I generally dislike his work, so I leave its appreciation to others.:D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 23, 2020, 04:45:05 PM

I've managed to pick off nearly all of the English and German 'Creation's over the years. There is a second Weil which I never got, but only because I quite liked the one I had. Of the 12, the first 4 are in English, the last 10 in German.

(https://i.imgur.com/VaZFxpS.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/raFS8Tx.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/IFTqPUY.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/4mM7itI.jpg)

And:
(https://i.imgur.com/vj7tfSf.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/onm7SO8.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/kVpYXlt.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/Le1H0PC.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/g6V9tmv.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/vYneYcA.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/n9Gw10S.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/kXmnPxT.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/z85Jrsf.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/DN4Srx8.jpg)

In English, I like McCreesh & Steinaecker the best, although it is hard to fault Handel & Haydn Society, and the only fault with the Hogwood is a sort of muffled sound which irritates me.

In German, it is a much more difficult task, to toss out some superb performances to pick a favorite. I listen to Jacobs, Harnoncourt, Christie and Hengelbrock the most often, but don't have negative vibes about any of them, really. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 24, 2020, 01:10:17 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 23, 2020, 04:45:05 PM
Of the 12, the first 4 are in English, the last 10 in German.

Are you sure? :laugh:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on March 24, 2020, 01:27:46 AM

According to Haydn Seek, Haydn wrote a keyboard trio in 1772, HobXV:02. Has anyone recorded it? I have the trio 1790 set but I just can't find it, maybe I need glasses.

Gurn - I assume that it's attributed to 1772 because of the way the earliest fair copy is dated, rather than anything more secure. The reason I'm interested is that I'm exploring op 20.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on March 24, 2020, 01:41:37 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on March 24, 2020, 01:27:46 AM
According to Haydn Seek, Haydn wrote a keyboard trio in 1772, HobXV:02. Has anyone recorded it?

Hob XV:2 in F major is on the Beaux Arts Trio set disc 3.

Quote
I have the trio 1790 set but I just can't find it, maybe I need glasses.

It's the very last trio on Volume 8 disc 2.

I'm sure it must also be somewhere in the Van Swieten Trio set.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on March 24, 2020, 01:47:52 AM

Quote from: Florestan on March 24, 2020, 01:41:37 AM
Hob XV:2 in F major is on the Beaux Arts Trio set disc 3.

It's the very last trio on Volume 8 disc 2.

I'm sure it must also be somewhere in the Van Swieten Trio set.

Super thanks. Found it (badly tagged on my hard drive!)

Interestingly the final movement is a set of variations with the opening aria repeated at the end, like the Goldberg Variations. Was that a common trope in C18 music?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on March 24, 2020, 02:08:48 AM

Hob XV:2 was published together with XV:9 and 10 in 1785. Supposedly it uses a lost divertimento (but I cannot find more information, maybe a Baryton piece?). Dating is very uncertain around/before 1770, probably somewhat earlier than the bunch of quartets starting with op.9.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on March 24, 2020, 02:39:18 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on March 24, 2020, 02:08:48 AM
Hob XV:2 was published together with XV:9 and 10 in 1785. Supposedly it uses a lost divertimento (but I cannot find more information, maybe a Baryton piece?). Dating is very uncertain around/before 1770, probably somewhat earlier than the bunch of quartets starting with op.9.

It certainly sounds very different from op 20!

Anyway, in my little exploration around 1772 I was pleased to discover op 17/5 adagio

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 24, 2020, 08:21:14 AM

Specifics about the origin of Hob 15:2 (https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2014/05/1772-the-music-part-3-.html)
What's known about the publication in 1785 (https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/03/1785-the-music-part-3-.html)

The short take on it is that the scholars are nearly positive that 15:2 began life as one of those little concertinos which now reside in Hob 14, but the second violin part was either lost or removed as a modernization effort. The concertinos mostly date from the late 1750's and '60's, so if that's what this is, then 1772 is probably not when it was composed. FWIW, I think the inner movement is splendid, as are so many of Haydn's inner movements.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 24, 2020, 08:27:05 AM

Quote from: André on March 23, 2020, 03:23:21 PM
The McCreesh and Spering versions of Creation - or Die Schöpfung, since I prefer it in German - are excellent. So are those by Christie and Griffiths, all with PI or in period style. I don't know the Gardiner. I generally dislike his work, so I leave its appreciation to others.:D

Thanks All on the previous page who left comments and recommendations on the Haydn Oratorios - for The Creation, believe that the McCreesh and Spering versions will do me fine - Gardiner did not get too many comments? For The Seasons, will definitely keep the Jacobs recording and add an English version w/ McCreesh - excellent reviews on Amazon, plus great comments from MusicWeb (review attached for those in the market?). Thanks again. Dave :)
.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51ISVrKfN-L._SS500_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 24, 2020, 08:50:24 AM

Early Divertimenti w/ the Haydn Ensemble Berlin on 'modern instruments', recorded in 1999 - early last week, I was looking on BRO for some Hoffmeister CDs (and found three recordings, 2 solo piano & a 2-disc set of clarinet/piano sonatas) - added this Haydn CD to pad the shipping a little.

In 1759, Haydn (then 27 y/o) was hired by Count Morzin to work w/ his orchestra at Lukavice Castle (pic below) for two years before his new job with the Esterhazy family in 1761; most of these Hob II: works are listed/discussed by Gurn in his Haydn Seek Blog (https://www.fjhaydn.com) under 'Haydn's Music by Decades, 1750s & 1760s. In an excellent MusicWeb review (attached), the publication dates for these works are 1760-66, so most after Haydn left Morzin; of course, these works were likely written earlier. I have Papa's earliest Symphonies & String Quartets and now some of the Divertimenti. Dave :)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71COB0f%2BRKL._SL1200_.jpg) (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/46/Doln%C3%AD_Lukavice_-_Z%C3%A1mek.jpg/800px-Doln%C3%AD_Lukavice_-_Z%C3%A1mek.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 24, 2020, 11:02:39 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on March 24, 2020, 08:27:05 AM
Thanks All on the previous page who left comments and recommendations on the Haydn Oratorios - for The Creation, believe that the McCreesh and Spering versions will do me fine - Gardiner did not get too many comments? For The Seasons, will definitely keep the Jacobs recording and add an English version w/ McCreesh - excellent reviews on Amazon, plus great comments from MusicWeb (review attached for those in the market?). Thanks again. Dave :)
.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51ISVrKfN-L._SS500_.jpg)

Yup, in re The Seasons: Jacobs & McCreesh are all you should need. The only other one I could even think to recommend, which is pretty darn good, is Harnoncourt:

(https://i.imgur.com/c8T8Pyk.jpg)

But with what you have already, you can live without. McCreesh really loads up the musicians here too, double orchestras and choruses, can't beat that for that Phil Spektor Wall of Sound! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 24, 2020, 11:28:21 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 24, 2020, 11:02:39 AM
Yup, in re The Seasons: Jacobs & McCreesh are all you should need. The only other one I could even think to recommend, which is pretty darn good, is Harnoncourt:

(https://i.imgur.com/c8T8Pyk.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-XfqRG4P/0/151e7ab6/L/Arcimboldo-L.png)

But with what you have already, you can live without. McCreesh really loads up the musicians here too, double orchestras and choruses, can't beat that for that Phil Spektor Wall of Sound! :D

8)

Tempting! Could make a purchase just for that cover - love the artist Giuseppe Arcimboldo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuseppe_Arcimboldo) - short quote from link - but for me, 2 versions of each Oratorio in English & German seems fine - thanks! Dave :)

QuoteGiuseppe Arcimboldo (1526 or 1527 – 1593) was an Italian painter best known for creating imaginative portrait heads made entirely of objects such as fruits, vegetables, flowers, fish and books.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vers la flamme on March 24, 2020, 12:14:41 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 24, 2020, 11:02:39 AM
But with what you have already, you can live without. McCreesh really loads up the musicians here too, double orchestras and choruses, can't beat that for that Phil Spektor Wall of Sound! :D

8)

Perhaps you're being facetious, but I thought McCreesh was an OVPP guy. I would think doubling parts and choruses would not be his style...?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on March 24, 2020, 12:19:27 PM

Quote from: vers la flamme on March 24, 2020, 12:14:41 PM
Perhaps you're being facetious, but I thought McCreesh was an OVPP guy. I would think doubling parts and choruses would not be his style...?

Haydn's forces in the premiere of The Creation were very large compared to most concerts of that time, and the British already had a habit of using big orchestras and choruses for the Handel oratorios that were Haydn's model. So McCreesh feels going big here is the correct HIP approach.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 24, 2020, 12:36:48 PM

Quote from: vers la flamme on March 24, 2020, 12:14:41 PM
Perhaps you're being facetious, but I thought McCreesh was an OVPP guy. I would think doubling parts and choruses would not be his style...?

Quote from: JBS on March 24, 2020, 12:19:27 PM
Haydn's forces in the premiere of The Creation were very large compared to most concerts of that time, and the British already had a habit of using big orchestras and choruses for the Handel oratorios that were Haydn's model. So McCreesh feels going big here is the correct HIP approach.

What Jeffrey said. I talked to McCreesh about it (over on Twitter) while they were still working on it, and he said they were generally recreating one of the first performances. I won't be writing the essay on 'The Seasons' until later this year, but I have the research materials gathered up, and indeed, there are performances on file which are easily that big. The Viennese "Company of Friends of Music" simply called on every musician in Vienna and said 'let's do this'. And they did... :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on March 25, 2020, 05:11:18 AM

I only have Gardiner and I'm perfectly happy with it. I suspect I got it because there were plenty of positive reviews.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vers la flamme on March 26, 2020, 12:06:40 PM

Favorite HIP London symphonies? I have Szell/Cleveland and Davis/RCO but would like to hear them on the old instruments.

PS. I'm listening to the Missa in tempore belli right now, w/ Harnoncourt and the Concentus Musicus Wien & the Arnold Schoenberg Chor. Very good stuff! I need to explore Haydn's other masses and choral works...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on March 26, 2020, 01:27:57 PM

Quote from: vers la flamme on March 26, 2020, 12:06:40 PM
Favorite HIP London symphonies? I have Szell/Cleveland and Davis/RCO but would like to hear them on the old instruments.

PS. I'm listening to the Missa in tempore belli right now, w/ Harnoncourt and the Concentus Musicus Wien & the Arnold Schoenberg Chor. Very good stuff! I need to explore Haydn's other masses and choral works...

I'd recommend the Brüggen set. Though I wouldn't want to do without Bernstein/Sony, Klemperer, Jochum, or Dennis Russell Davies.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on March 26, 2020, 01:30:48 PM

Quote from: Daverz on March 26, 2020, 01:27:57 PM
I'd recommend the Brüggen set.

Me too!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on March 26, 2020, 01:33:04 PM

Quote from: Madiel on March 25, 2020, 05:11:18 AM
I only have Gardiner and I'm perfectly happy with it. I suspect I got it because there were plenty of positive reviews.

For Die Schöpfung, I really enjoy the Marriner on EMI with an excellent cast of singers (sung in German).

[asin] B000EMSIBC[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vers la flamme on March 26, 2020, 02:55:59 PM

Quote from: Daverz on March 26, 2020, 01:27:57 PM
I'd recommend the Brüggen set. Though I wouldn't want to do without Bernstein/Sony, Klemperer, Jochum, or Dennis Russell Davies.

Brüggen is not easy to find, unfortunately. I have his Paris symphonies (which is also out of print, but still fairly cheap, unlike the Londons, and love it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on March 26, 2020, 02:56:25 PM

Quote from: George on March 26, 2020, 01:30:48 PM
Me too!

It may be hard to source. There was a box set of all Brüggen's Haydn Symphony recordings (Sturm & Drang, Paris, London) which must have had a very limited release. Otherwise the Londons were available on 2 Philips Duos.

https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-8734/

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/search?search_query=haydn+london+bruggen (Presto CDs are CDRs, I assume)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Haydn-Orchestra-Century-Frans-Br%C3%BCggen/dp/B001N083PU
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Haydn-London-Symphonies-Composer-1994-11-15/dp/B014I5TOQ

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on March 26, 2020, 07:23:45 PM

Quote from: Daverz on March 26, 2020, 02:56:25 PM
It may be hard to source. There was a box set of all Brüggen's Haydn Symphony recordings (Sturm & Drang, Paris, London) which must have had a very limited release. Otherwise the Londons were available on 2 Philips Duos.

https://www.classicstoday.com/review/review-8734/

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/search?search_query=haydn+london+bruggen (Presto CDs are CDRs, I assume)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Haydn-Orchestra-Century-Frans-Br%C3%BCggen/dp/B001N083PU
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Haydn-London-Symphonies-Composer-1994-11-15/dp/B014I5TOQ

Yowza!

This set is now $800 on amazon!

https://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Symphonies-35-Christopher-Hogwood/dp/B01BHFPU3S/ref=sr_1_8?dchild=1&keywords=bruggen+haydn+symphonies&qid=1585279364&sr=8-8

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on March 26, 2020, 07:41:12 PM

Quote from: George on March 26, 2020, 07:23:45 PM
Yowza!

That set is now $800 on amazon!

https://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Symphonies-35-Christopher-Hogwood/dp/B01BHFPU3S/ref=sr_1_8?dchild=1&keywords=bruggen+haydn+symphonies&qid=1585279364&sr=8-8

Looks like that is a mix of Hogwood and Brüggen in the London symphonies. I am surprised that set is already OOP.

The incomplete Hogwood set is cheaper than that:

[asin]B009LNI0T0[/asin]

The all Brüggen set was here (not currently available):

https://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Sturm-Drang-London-Symphonies/dp/B00O1A8YCG

(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_500/MI0003/421/MI0003421211.jpg)

Amazon.de does list some used copies:

https://www.amazon.de/Sturm-J-Haydn/dp/B00O1A8YCG

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on March 27, 2020, 01:31:09 AM

Brüggen is very good and my main "HIP" set for the London works (I have the bigger box with Sturm&Drang, Paris etc.) but I would not pay premium or spend too much energy to hunt them down. Kuijken would be another option for "Paris" onwards, Pinnock (Archiv) has a very good (more straightforward than Brüggen) of the Sturm and Drang, although some of my favorite Sturm und Drang are probably from the incomplete (mostly unfindable and not even all on CD) early 1980s recordings by Derek Solomons (CBS).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: André on March 27, 2020, 05:00:39 AM

I like Goodman and Fey a lot more than Minkowski. They're my favourite HIP performances, Goodman being my favourite tout court. For the Paris symphonies, my vote goes to Harnoncourt. I find his London symphonies disappointing, though. The difference is striking. With the Concentus Musicus the orchestral conception is stunning. With the RCOA it's just another big band version.

I first heard the middle (sturm und drang) symphonies with Marriner and the ASMIF and am still partial to them. The balance btw zest and warmth, elegance and drama is just perfect IMO.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vers la flamme on March 27, 2020, 05:40:46 AM

Quote from: André on March 27, 2020, 05:00:39 AM
I like Goodman and Fey a lot more than Minkowski. They're my favourite HIP performances, Goodman being my favourite tout court. For the Paris symphonies, my vote goes to Harnoncourt. I find his London symphonies disappointing, though. The difference is striking. With the Concentus Musicus the orchestral conception is stunning. With the RCOA it's just another big band version.

I first heard the middle (sturm und drang) symphonies with Marriner and the ASMIF and am still partial to them. The balance btw zest and warmth, elegance and drama is just perfect IMO.

Really, that's too bad. I loved the Harnoncourt/RCO London Symphonies that I've heard. I would say they are at least partly HIP, not "just another big band version". For instance listen to Colin Davis with the same orchestra then listen to the Harnoncourt. The difference is striking. Harnoncourt is definitely applying HIP principles to a modern instruments orchestra. Of course, your mileage may vary, but I'd say you owe those recordings another shot.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: j winter on March 27, 2020, 06:12:15 AM

Quote from: vers la flamme on March 27, 2020, 05:40:46 AM
Really, that's too bad. I loved the Harnoncourt/RCO London Symphonies that I've heard. I would say they are at least partly HIP, not "just another big band version". For instance listen to Colin Davis with the same orchestra then listen to the Harnoncourt. The difference is striking. Harnoncourt is definitely applying HIP principles to a modern instruments orchestra. Of course, your mileage may vary, but I'd say you owe those recordings another shot.

For HIP-ish sets of the Londons I'm very happy with both Norrington (warmly recommended by Sarge) and Fey -- though neither of them are strictly HIP -- they both use a blended orchestra, some modern instruments, some period (particularly the brass). Personally I think it sounds great...

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/5131vlqiHVL._SY355_.jpg)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81plYm-iBLL.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vers la flamme on March 27, 2020, 06:23:02 AM

Quote from: j winter on March 27, 2020, 06:12:15 AM
For HIP-ish sets of the Londons I'm very happy with both Norrington (warmly recommended by Sarge) and Fey -- though neither of them are strictly HIP -- they both use a blended orchestra, some modern instruments, some period (particularly the brass). Personally I think it sounds great...

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/5131vlqiHVL._SY355_.jpg)(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81plYm-iBLL.jpg)

Odd that Hänssler would compete against themselves with two semi-HIP Haydn London Symphonies sets. But what do I know about the music business? ;)

Anyway I have heard great things about the Fey. I'm not much a fan of Norrington I'm afraid, but I'm mostly only familiar with his London Classical Players recordings.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: André on March 27, 2020, 07:48:43 AM

Quote from: vers la flamme on March 27, 2020, 05:40:46 AM
Really, that's too bad. I loved the Harnoncourt/RCO London Symphonies that I've heard. I would say they are at least partly HIP, not "just another big band version". For instance listen to Colin Davis with the same orchestra then listen to the Harnoncourt. The difference is striking. Harnoncourt is definitely applying HIP principles to a modern instruments orchestra. Of course, your mileage may vary, but I'd say you owe those recordings another shot.

I have both sets (Davis and Harnoncourt). I commented on the Davis a few months ago. To me they miss some of the wit and humour of the music, and come out as too serious. Szell (93-98) proves that razor sharp wit is in the music's fabric, a dimension lost on Harnoncourt. I find him stern, commanding, meticulous - but witty? No.

BTW I take the term HIP to mean 'historically informed performance', not necessarily 'with period instruments only'. I think that there are a few mixed ensembles out there.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on March 27, 2020, 12:07:27 PM

I mostly find Szell more stern than witty as well. While I think Harnoncourt's Concentus recordings are overall better (and I also find e.g. most the Concertgebouw Mozart and the CoE Beethoven more interesting than his Haydn London symphonies), they are nevertheless quite distinctive. E.g. less string heavy balance, some odd tempi (a few slow finales, e.g. in 101, generally fast to very fast menuets and an uncommonly slow slow movement in #99).
As for Fey's, I used to be fascinated by his approach but I am now at least with one foot in the camp of those who find that some of his exaggerations don't really bear repeated listening. E.g the manic tempo contrasts between menuet and trio in #104. I have about half of his London set (93-97, 104) but I will probably get rid of a few of them. To my recollection, earlier/middle symphonies fare better with Fey (while the general approach remains the same, maybe it is mostly less competition)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Iota on March 30, 2020, 11:59:45 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 24, 2020, 11:02:39 AM
.. re The Seasons: Jacobs & McCreesh are all you should need. The only other one I could even think to recommend, which is pretty darn good, is Harnoncourt:

I find that Jacobs recording a very lovely thing indeed. And by association am now very keen to track down the McCreesh.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 24, 2020, 12:36:48 PM
I won't be writing the essay on 'The Seasons' until later this year, but I have the research materials gathered up

Will this be appearing on your blog? :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 30, 2020, 01:35:02 PM

Quote from: Iota on March 30, 2020, 11:59:45 AM
I find that Jacobs recording a very lovely thing indeed. And by association am now very keen to track down the McCreesh.

Will this be appearing on your blog? :)

Yes, indeed. I have finally reached 1800. Perhaps not as major an accomplishment for me as it was for Haydn, but still. It took him 68 years, it only took me 7... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Iota on March 31, 2020, 07:44:02 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 30, 2020, 01:35:02 PM
Yes, indeed.

Thanks, will keep an eye out for it.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on March 30, 2020, 01:35:02 PMI have finally reached 1800. Perhaps not as major an accomplishment for me as it was for Haydn, but still. It took him 68 years, it only took me 7... :D

:D

Around here we just wait for 1700 and then know it's only an hour to go. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 31, 2020, 08:13:49 AM

Quote from: Iota on March 31, 2020, 07:44:02 AM
Thanks, will keep an eye out for it.

:D

Around here we just wait for 1700 and then know it's only an hour to go. 8)

:D

Cheers,
8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vers la flamme on March 31, 2020, 08:19:58 AM

Happy birthday, Haydn. I will have to give some of his music a listen (if I find time between the Bach binge—the two masters share a birthday).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on March 31, 2020, 09:27:52 AM

288 years old today!

(https://i.imgur.com/lPzNSLK.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on April 05, 2020, 01:23:44 AM

A very jolly and elegant op 20/2 from Ebene -- of its kind, it's good. It's just that its kind may not be so good . . .

https://www.youtube.com/v/M_DrCbi9b78

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 05, 2020, 07:30:19 AM

You guys didn't mention this set, not much anyway. These guys are good, and benefit by the sound of the gut strings and their wonderful phrasing. That's OK, I found them anyway, although just last week!

Neither jolly nor elegant, it's what I like in a Haydn quartet. Well, it IS jolly where needed, and elegant likewise, just not for its own sake. Ibragimova is a really first rate fiddler!

(https://i.imgur.com/05tt6qB.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/FIrEUHs.jpg)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: aukhawk on April 06, 2020, 01:58:55 AM

And with more to come :)

(https://b2b.naxosusa.com/Images/LoRes/BackCovers/7318599923482.jpg)
Haydn Op76 1-3, Chiaroscuro Quartet

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 06, 2020, 07:50:20 AM

Quote from: aukhawk on April 06, 2020, 01:58:55 AM
And with more to come :)

(https://b2b.naxosusa.com/Images/LoRes/BackCovers/7318599923482.jpg)
Haydn Op76 1-3, Chiaroscuro Quartet

Yes, seeing that in Brian's post last week was what spurred me to check them out, where I discovered their HIPness. Looking forward to a new Op 76: I am still not 100% satisfied with what I have, although the Kuijken Quartet are on top. I talked with Catherine Manson last week and she told me the LHQ have completed their recording of Op 76, but immediately afterwards, the studio was shut down for the quarantine, so she doesn't know when it will be through post-production and release. So that is another on the way. Maybe by year's end??

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on April 06, 2020, 08:29:15 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 06, 2020, 07:50:20 AM
Yes, seeing that in Brian's post last week was what spurred me to check them out, where I discovered their HIPness. Looking forward to a new Op 76: I am still not 100% satisfied with what I have, although the Kuijken Quartet are on top. I talked with Catherine Manson last week and she told me the LHQ have completed their recording of Op 76, but immediately afterwards, the studio was shut down for the quarantine, so she doesn't know when it will be through post-production and release. So that is another on the way. Maybe by year's end??

8)

Call up Downing Street and explain to them that Haydn's music is an essential service.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 06, 2020, 09:43:36 AM

Quote from: JBS on April 06, 2020, 08:29:15 AM
Call up Downing Street and explain to them that Haydn's music is an essential service.

:D Man, it's Boris... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 15, 2020, 11:55:26 PM

Just to let you know I decided to go with the Beghin set for the keyboard works. This was after listening to various samples available and mainly based on the use of different keyboards for different periods. It's held up in the mail atm, but should be here soon.

:)

Gurn, I was wondering, now that you've nearly got in 1800 with Haydn, would it be an idea to do a little essay drawing a picture of what Haydn was like and his habits. When I read biographies I always relish the moment when the writer does just that... Sometimes biographers never do and it's disappointing.

I know two things generally about Haydn: 1. He always composed at the keyboard, 2. He usually wrote the inner movements of a work first.

Are both of these true, what else can you tell us?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SergeCpp on May 08, 2020, 01:34:40 PM

Hello to all! I'm new here.

* * *

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71-cX9jPa9L._SL500_.jpg)

Haydn Piano Chamber Music — Haydn Trio Eisenstadt (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_l5BGraDxp7l_jmCUNvaib9ueGbZBsl4bw)

Do not miss Adagio from Concertino C Major, Hob. XIV:12 (https://youtu.be/zimmntaYpWQ) (I've listened then several other interpretations of this piece and this remained most charming for me.)

(https://img.youtube.com/vi/SCswOjSQhdY/mqdefault.jpg)

Austria's Haydn Trio Eisenstadt Play Live on Soundcheck (https://youtu.be/SCswOjSQhdY)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 08, 2020, 01:47:26 PM

Quote from: SergeCpp on May 08, 2020, 01:34:40 PM
Hello to all! I'm new here.

* * *

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71-cX9jPa9L._SL500_.jpg)

Haydn Piano Chamber Music — Haydn Trio Eisenstadt (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_l5BGraDxp7l_jmCUNvaib9ueGbZBsl4bw)

Do not miss Adagio from Concertino C Major, Hob. XIV:12 (https://youtu.be/zimmntaYpWQ) (I've listened then several other interpretations of this piece and this remained most charming for me.)

(https://img.youtube.com/vi/SCswOjSQhdY/mqdefault.jpg)

Austria's Haydn Trio Eisenstadt Play Live on Soundcheck (https://youtu.be/SCswOjSQhdY)

Welcome, Seryozha!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on May 08, 2020, 05:18:11 PM

Quote from: SergeCpp on May 08, 2020, 01:34:40 PM
Hello to all! I'm new here.

* * *

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71-cX9jPa9L._SL500_.jpg)

Haydn Piano Chamber Music — Haydn Trio Eisenstadt (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_l5BGraDxp7l_jmCUNvaib9ueGbZBsl4bw)

Do not miss Adagio from Concertino C Major, Hob. XIV:12 (https://youtu.be/zimmntaYpWQ) (I've listened then several other interpretations of this piece and this remained most charming for me.)

(https://img.youtube.com/vi/SCswOjSQhdY/mqdefault.jpg)

Austria's Haydn Trio Eisenstadt Play Live on Soundcheck (https://youtu.be/SCswOjSQhdY)

Welcome, indeed!

I have that set, and it is due a new listen, like many other things on my shelves.
But at the moment* my Haydn is the symphonies via the Hogwood AAM set.

*At the moment happens to be literally true. I currently have Symphony 27 in my player.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 09, 2020, 10:54:28 AM

Finished a thorough listen of these sets:

(https://s12emagst.akamaized.net/products/5458/5457034/images/res_ba9836432db4d66afc2cd6bba890b98c_full.jpg)(https://cps-static.rovicorp.com/3/JPG_400/MI0002/851/MI0002851183.jpg?partner=allrovi.com)

Probably the finest sets of piano sonatas and piano trios ever composed.

In the process I've discovered the rules of thumbs to tell Mozart from Haydn.

1. If it's as cantabile as an operatic aria, then it's Mozart.

2. If there are quirky harmonies, then it's Haydn.

3. If the overall structure goes against anything you expect (such as, minuet last, theme and variations first, slow movement first or fast movement middle) then it's Haydn.

4. If the overall feeling is otherworldly, ecstatic and bitter-sweet, then it's Mozart.

5. If the overall feeling is down-to-earth, rustic and no-nonsense, then it's Haydn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 09, 2020, 02:36:03 PM

Quote from: Florestan on May 09, 2020, 10:54:28 AM

In the process I've discovered the rules of thumbs to tell Mozart from Haydn.

1. If it's as cantabile as an operatic aria, then it's Mozart.

2. If there are quirky harmonies, then it's Haydn.

3. If the overall structure goes against anything you expect (such as, minuet last, theme and variations first, slow movement first or fast movement middle) then it's Haydn.

4. If the overall feeling is otherworldly, ecstatic and bitter-sweet, then it's Mozart.

5. If the overall feeling is down-to-earth, rustic and no-nonsense, then it's Haydn.

I love those rules of thumb. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on May 09, 2020, 03:26:23 PM

Quote from: Florestan on May 09, 2020, 10:54:28 AM
Finished a thorough listen of these sets:

(https://s12emagst.akamaized.net/products/5458/5457034/images/res_ba9836432db4d66afc2cd6bba890b98c_full.jpg)

A desert island boxset for me!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on May 09, 2020, 11:39:59 PM

I think rule 3 rather shows that the "standardization" we may be tempted to read off the most famous piano sonatas from the lat 18th and early 19th century is somewhat mistaken. One of the most famous Mozart sonatas K 331 has not the "typical" sequence but variations - menuet - rondo (and K 282 and 284 also depart from the typical).
Sure, most sonatas (and this is also true for Haydn) do have "fast/moderate - slow - fast" but different options or two movements only are sufficiently common that I don't think any contemporary would have found this a daring deviation.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on May 10, 2020, 08:30:13 PM

Pretty good rules of thumb.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on May 26, 2020, 01:50:50 PM

I listened to Prokofiev's First Symphony yesterday and wondered if there are any other intentional stylistic copies or tributes or parodies of Haydn out there. Beethoven's Eighth Symphony might qualify? My mind also went to the early symphony by Bizet but that may be more in a generalized classical style than specifically Haydnesque.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 26, 2020, 02:54:10 PM

Quote from: Brian on May 26, 2020, 01:50:50 PM
I listened to Prokofiev's First Symphony yesterday and wondered if there are any other intentional stylistic copies or tributes or parodies of Haydn out there. Beethoven's Eighth Symphony might qualify? My mind also went to the early symphony by Bizet but that may be more in a generalized classical style than specifically Haydnesque.

That is largely how I hear the Shostakovich Ninth.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on May 26, 2020, 11:17:52 PM

No matter of tributes/parodies etc. neither Beethoven's 8th nor Prokofiev's classique, Bizet's or other classicist symphonies are so close that they could really be mistaken for Haydn. Maybe certain select passages (but this one can do with so many cases that it hardly shows anything). E.g. in the Prokofieve the gavotte would not be found in Haydn and the outer movements are also closer to Rossini, IMO.
Bizet supposedly took a symphony by Gounod as inspiration for his.

Not surprisingly, symphonies contemporary with or shortly after Haydn can be much closer than any homage decades later. The C major symphony by Friedrich Witt that was for some time attributed to the young Beethoven (as "Jena symphony") is modelled very closely after Haydn's #97

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on May 27, 2020, 04:51:27 AM

Well I know at least half a dozen tributes: 6 French composers in 1909. Including Ravel's Menuet on the name of Haydn and Debussy's Hommage.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on May 27, 2020, 06:05:30 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on May 26, 2020, 11:17:52 PM
Bizet supposedly took a symphony by Gounod as inspiration for his.

It's very clear when you hear the Gounod (his First). They're very similar.

Thanks all for the suggestions so far. I agree with Jo that Rossini also looms large in many of these works - I think there is a bit of Rossini parody in the finale of Beethoven's Eighth, when the coda stops dead for the French horns and flutes to do a chipper little tootle of the main theme, and then the whole orchestra jumps back in. (I don't mind if a conductor slows way down for those solos, then goes back to the basic fast tempo for the tutti.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 27, 2020, 01:21:58 PM

OK, so finally the Beghin box arrived and I've been reading the booklet. My understanding is that Beghin and team went around various historic rooms that the Haydn keyboard works would have been played in, made acoustic measurements and back in Canada created virtual aural replicas of those rooms for Beghin to practise in and record the works (on appropriate instruments).

I haven't actually listened to any of the disks yet, I'm sure they sound good, but wouldn't it have been easier just to take the instruments to the rooms and record in them, especially as he would have had ship the instruments from Europe to Canada. It doesn't actually explain in the booklet what is gained by creating these virtual rooms. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 27, 2020, 02:54:20 PM

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on May 27, 2020, 01:21:58 PM
OK, so finally the Beghin box arrived and I've been reading the booklet. My understanding is that Beghin and team went around various historic rooms that the Haydn keyboard works would have been played in, made acoustic measurements and back in Canada created virtual aural replicas of those rooms for Beghin to practise in and record the works (on appropriate instruments).

I haven't actually listened to any of the disks yet, I'm sure they sound good, but wouldn't it have been easier just to take the instruments to the rooms and record in them, especially as he would have had ship the instruments from Europe to Canada. It doesn't actually explain in the booklet what is gained by creating these virtual rooms. :D

What I understand is this: you have had an harpsichord (for example) constructed to be a duplicate of one which was actually used to play his music (by the original player, who would be the dedicatee). If you wish to recreate the experience, then the next logical step is to try and recreate the ambiance of the room in which it was played. I would say it was the same principle employed in the current (wonderful) Beethoven cycle by Haselböck in which the 9 are played in the same places as they were originally premiered. Of course, since Beghin came first...

(https://i.imgur.com/o6Az95N.jpg)

He wrote a book about it, which gives a lot more information about his intentions and also what he put into the third aspect, the playing itself. I know some people here who don't believe how much is known on this subject, but if it is out there, this guy knows it. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on May 27, 2020, 11:35:52 PM

That still doesn't really explain why you'd go through all the gimmickry of recreating the ambience of a room when the room exists. Just use the room. If you wish to recreate the experience, THAT is the logical step.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Biffo on May 28, 2020, 01:14:44 AM

Not all these rooms can have ideal acoustics. Why not just choose the best one and record everything there?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 28, 2020, 02:35:42 AM

Quote from: Madiel on May 27, 2020, 11:35:52 PM
That still doesn't really explain why you'd go through all the gimmickry of recreating the ambience of a room when the room exists. Just use the room. If you wish to recreate the experience, THAT is the logical step.

+ 1.

Besides, the ambiance of the room back then meant not only the room itself and its acoustics, but also the audience in the room and their behaviour during performance. Recreating the room only does not give the full experience. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on May 28, 2020, 05:09:18 AM

Quote from: Biffo on May 28, 2020, 01:14:44 AM
Not all these rooms can have ideal acoustics. Why not just choose the best one and record everything there?

The idea was to recreate with the original listener heard, bad acoustic or not.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Biffo on May 28, 2020, 05:15:09 AM

Quote from: JBS on May 28, 2020, 05:09:18 AM
The idea was to recreate with the original listener heard, bad acoustic or not.

In other words a gimmick.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on May 28, 2020, 05:23:41 AM

Quote from: Biffo on May 28, 2020, 05:15:09 AM
In other words a gimmick.

Absolutely. And of course, one that doesn't want you to consider whether Haydn ever said to anyone, or muttered under his breath, "I wish we had a better hall".

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 28, 2020, 06:02:46 AM

Quote from: Florestan on May 28, 2020, 02:35:42 AM
+ 1.

Besides, the ambiance of the room back then meant not only the room itself and its acoustics, but also the audience in the room and their behaviour during performance. Recreating the room only does not give the full experience. ;D

You seem to be expecting an awful lot from a CD. ::)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 28, 2020, 06:03:55 AM

Quote from: Madiel on May 28, 2020, 05:23:41 AM
Absolutely. And of course, one that doesn't want you to consider whether Haydn ever said to anyone, or muttered under his breath, "I wish we had a better hall".

Well, he probably had the best hall in Europe, so I doubt he did.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 28, 2020, 07:52:42 AM

Quote from: JBS on May 28, 2020, 05:09:18 AM
The idea was to recreate with the original listener heard, bad acoustic or not.

This recreation is impossible because the original listeners heard the work in the context of its performance, ie not only the room's acoustics but also the additional input from the audience (coughs, talks, glasses being passed to, or taken from, them etc etc etc). The idea that a listener back then had any notion of listening alone to a piece of music played to perfection in a perfect acoustics is an anachronism. We will never ever be able to hear what the original listeners heard.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on May 28, 2020, 08:11:22 AM

Berlin's aim was to recreate the actual acoustics so if the original room had bad acoustics then the perfect acoustics would be bad acoustics. And for at least a couple of CDs in the set, the idea was with to recreate what Haydn was playing for himself in his own parlor or what the original dedicatee what's playing for themselves in their own drawing room.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 28, 2020, 09:03:45 AM

Quote from: Florestan on May 28, 2020, 07:52:42 AM
This recreation is impossible because the original listeners heard the work in the context of its performance, ie not only the room's acoustics but also the additional input from the audience (coughs, talks, glasses being passed to, or taken from, them etc etc etc). The idea that a listener back then had any notion of listening alone to a piece of music played to perfection in a perfect acoustics is an anachronism. We will never ever be able to hear what the original listeners heard.

You really seem to have some serious hangups about ambient noise. So, let me ask you this: does the ambient noise have to be on the CD for it to count, or can it be my wife telling me about her day while I'm trying to listen to the music? Or for that matter, I tend to pass gas quite a bit, whether music is playing or not. ::) You've been pulling out this same tired old argument for the 15 years that I have known you. In that time, I have happily listened to thousands of realizations of music with little or no concern about coughing or sneezing or farting. Mainly, I love the sound of the instruments, which no number of anachronistic notions is going to change. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 28, 2020, 09:05:17 AM

Quote from: Florestan on May 28, 2020, 07:52:42 AM
This recreation is impossible because the original listeners heard the work in the context of its performance, ie not only the room's acoustics but also the additional input from the audience (coughs, talks, glasses being passed to, or taken from, them etc etc etc). The idea that a listener back then had any notion of listening alone to a piece of music played to perfection in a perfect acoustics is an anachronism. We will never ever be able to hear what the original listeners heard.

In part incorrect because many of the sonatas were composed for domestic "non-concert" use. Remember that writing a Sonata so that it rumbles to the back of a grand space is a Beethovenian anachronism.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 28, 2020, 09:24:57 AM

Quote from: JBS on May 28, 2020, 08:11:22 AM
to recreate what Haydn was playing for himself in his own parlor or what the original dedicatee what's playing for themselves in their own drawing room.

Still unattainable because Beghin is not Haydn nor the original dedicatee of any given sonata. What he achieves is himself playing, but that is what each and every performer achieves, HIP or not: herself/himself playing.

There is no way out from subjectivity when it comes to performing a piece of music and no amount of gimmickry will change that.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 28, 2020, 09:26:19 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 28, 2020, 09:03:45 AM
You really seem to have some serious hangups about ambient noise.

I bring it on only when someone claims that they recreate exactly what listeners back then heard.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 28, 2020, 09:26:54 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 28, 2020, 09:05:17 AM
In part incorrect because many of the sonatas were composed for domestic "non-concert" use.

True but see my reply to JBS above.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 28, 2020, 02:48:38 PM

Oh, you're all being very harsh about the Beghin project! I've listened to two of the disks now and they are excellent, I would recommend them, they are great in every way.

My only scepticism was thinking about the cost of a team of three going round the different rooms, then transporting various instruments to Canada, setting up a sound studio in Montreal, all the time and equipment there versus Beghin going to each room with the instrument, spending some days or weeks practising then getting a sound team in for the actual takes. Perhaps the rooms weren't available for long enough for his practising.

I suppose also that having done this exercise the techniques and programming would be available to recreate the acoustics of rooms that are no longer extant, so long as there are measurements and detailed enough descriptions available.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on May 28, 2020, 02:52:39 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on May 28, 2020, 09:03:45 AM
does the ambient noise have to be on the CD for it to count, or can it be my wife telling me about her day while I'm trying to listen to the music? ....

Oh Gurn, you should really pause at those moments ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wakefield on June 05, 2020, 02:39:56 PM

Quote from: Florestan on May 28, 2020, 07:52:42 AM
This recreation is impossible because the original listeners heard the work in the context of its performance, ie not only the room's acoustics but also the additional input from the audience (coughs, talks, glasses being passed to, or taken from, them etc etc etc). The idea that a listener back then had any notion of listening alone to a piece of music played to perfection in a perfect acoustics is an anachronism. We will never ever be able to hear what the original listeners heard.

You're getting short in scope, Andrei. History is impossible too because we will never understand the facts as our ancestors did. Any attempt of rebuilding the past is a perfect anachronism. The same idea, but beautifully expressed, can be found in "Pierre Menard, Author of Don Quixote," by Jorge Luis Borges. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 13, 2020, 05:21:14 AM

I'm sure this has been covered a dozen times before, but tired brain is just going to ask...

One of the things on my to-do list is to collect more string quartets, especially all the sets of 6.

I have the Kodaly quartet already in opp. 64, 71/74 and 76. Double ups are not fatal in this instance, but I'm also perfectly happy collecting other quartets in opus blocks rather than in one go.

So my focus is on (deep breath) opp.9, 17, 20, 33, 50 and 54/55.

Liked recordings? Disliked recordings?

Note: I lean modern but period is okay in this circumstance. Except the London Haydn Quartet on Hyperion, they sound freaking awful.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 13, 2020, 06:25:54 AM

Quote from: Madiel on June 13, 2020, 05:21:14 AM
I'm sure this has been covered a dozen times before, but tired brain is just going to ask...

One of the things on my to-do list is to collect more string quartets, especially all the sets of 6.

I have the Kodaly quartet already in opp. 64, 71/74 and 76. Double ups are not fatal in this instance, but I'm also perfectly happy collecting other quartets in opus blocks rather than in one go.

So my focus is on (deep breath) opp.9, 17, 20, 33, 50 and 54/55.

Liked recordings? Disliked recordings?

Note: I lean modern but period is okay in this circumstance. Except the London Haydn Quartet on Hyperion, they sound freaking awful.

The Quatuor Mosaïque may be my favorite in the Opp. 20 & 33

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: aukhawk on June 13, 2020, 09:51:23 AM

Chiaroscuro Quartet for. Op.20

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 13, 2020, 10:03:23 AM

Quote from: Madiel on June 13, 2020, 05:21:14 AM
I'm sure this has been covered a dozen times before, but tired brain is just going to ask...

So my focus is on (deep breath) opp.9, 17, 20, 33, 50 and 54/55.

Liked recordings? Disliked recordings?

Note: I lean modern but period is okay in this circumstance. Except the London Haydn Quartet on Hyperion, they sound freaking awful.

I have not heard any of the London Haydn Q but I had the impression that they were highly regarded among the period instrument recordings. Among other period ensembles he Mosaiques sound warmer but they only did opp. 20 and 33 of the above. op.50 is one of the best of the Festetics, I found their op.20 disappointing and have not heard their op.33. Their op.54/55 is a mixed bag but last time I checked I was somewhat positively surprised. Their op.9/17 was the only period instruments game in town when I got them 10-12 years ago. If you generally are not too fond of period instruments I somewhat hesitate to recommend the Festetics.

Modern instruments
for separate op. 9 and 17 (and everything else) there is basically Tatrai, Kodaly and Auryn. I don't know if the Buchberger (Brilliant) is still findable separately. You know the general style of the Kodaly, IMO reliable but often a bit staid.
The Auryn are very good in very good sound (and probably expensive) but I think they can also be a bit too well behaved. The Tatrai are supposedly very uneven (I have only heard their op.20 and 76 as they are apparently the best one) and comparably old-fashioned (recorded between mid 60s and late 70s or early 80s). The Buchberger are enthusiastic but rather rough and ready (if findable maybe so cheap that it will be worth a try).

you get far more choices for opp.20 and 33. I like the Hagen in op.20 (and this was before their "mannered" period) but many find them "cold", Tatrai for "old world charm). There is a newish highly regarded one by Doric/Chandos I have not heard but this is probably a very good available and affordable choice
op.33, Cuarteto Casals is on modern instruments but very lean and brilliant. Very impressive but sometimes a bit too intense, especially for these mostly short and humorous pieces. And no op.42 as filler (a cool little piece that gets often overlooked).

op.50 Amati/Divox (two discs, probably expensive) I have never heard the "classic" Tokyo (DG), Nomos/cpo is good enough but fairly dry.

op.54 Juilliard (but this is only in one of their boxes, I fear), Endellion/Virgin would do in a pinch or probably Kodaly (have not heard the latter)
op.55 Panocha/Supraphon

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on June 13, 2020, 11:04:52 AM

I was going to suggest that Quarteto Casals but the Amazon US price is over $250.

My favorite MI recordings are the Jerusalem Quartet, but they only did selected quartets and not whole opera, and Takacs, but they seem only to have done the later sets, not the ones you are looking at now.

So I would plump for the Kodalys.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on June 13, 2020, 11:14:30 AM

Quote from: Madiel on June 13, 2020, 05:21:14 AM
I'm sure this has been covered a dozen times before, but tired brain is just going to ask...

One of the things on my to-do list is to collect more string quartets, especially all the sets of 6.

I have the Kodaly quartet already in opp. 64, 71/74 and 76. Double ups are not fatal in this instance, but I'm also perfectly happy collecting other quartets in opus blocks rather than in one go.

So my focus is on (deep breath) opp.9, 17, 20, 33, 50 and 54/55.

Liked recordings? Disliked recordings?

Note: I lean modern but period is okay in this circumstance. Except the London Haydn Quartet on Hyperion, they sound freaking awful.

I have never gone opus by opus, but overall I really like the Angeles and Tatrai. Angeles can be gotten in a box, though possible to stream as well I would assume. Not sure of availability of either these days.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on June 13, 2020, 11:19:30 AM

Quote from: JBS on June 13, 2020, 11:04:52 AM
So I would plump for the Kodalys.

Given theirs is the only set I'm aware of that contains the spurious Op. 3 (apparently Hoffstetter's works) with the heartmelting Serenade* from No. 5, they get my vote too.

*although they play it Alegretto rather than Andante.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on June 13, 2020, 12:45:53 PM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 13, 2020, 06:25:54 AM
The Quatuor Mosaïque may be my favorite in the Opp. 20 & 33

Megadittoes.

As for modern vs. period instruments, I don't think it makes as much difference as the playing style. The Buchberger Quartet, for example, plays on modern instruments, but sounds more HIP than either the Mosaiques or the Festetics.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 13, 2020, 02:47:55 PM

Thanks for all the suggestions, very valuable.

I perhaps shouldn't have mentioned period vs modern given that in this context it matters very little to me (I've previously heard a little bit of the Festetics for example and have no problem sound wise, and have now tried the Mosaïques and they sound very nice). I probably mentioned it partly because I know for some people it's an important point, and partly because in some OTHER contexts I've previously mentioned it matters - for piano trios I can't cope with a jangly fortepiano. But for string instruments I'm fairly agnostic.

Anyway, much sampling to do...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 13, 2020, 05:51:44 PM

Quote from: JBS on June 13, 2020, 11:04:52 AM
I was going to suggest that Quarteto Casals but the Amazon US price is over $250.

That's nothing. Someone is trying to sell a volume of the Mosaiques for over $800.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on June 13, 2020, 11:43:01 PM

Quote from: aukhawk on June 13, 2020, 09:51:23 AM
Chiaroscuro Quartet for. Op.20

Have you heard their new op 76?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 14, 2020, 12:04:58 AM

I also like the two volumes of the Jerusalem a lot but they are anthologies with mostly well known pieces. I have most of the Mosaiques (except op.33 and one half of op.64) and would recommend them above the Festetics. However, they have not recorded several of the works asked for. Both Mosaiques and Festetics are comparably slow and often "relaxed" with a sound that is more often "warm" or "earthy" than lean and scratchy. I think they could sometimes have a bit more verve and esprit. The op.33 with the Apponyi Qt. (which were the first chairs of the Freiburg Baroque Orchestra in the 1990s) is very lean and fast, closer to "cliché HIP". The Casals is as fast but more pleasant sound and modern instruments. The anthologies with the Schuppanzigh are also very good but again mostly well known pieces.
I also like the Angeles despite some non-ideal balances and an overall style that lacks a bit of variety (elegant and cheerful, but at least more verve than Kodaly), especially for the early works, but they are only available in a box.

As for odds/ends: The Kodaly's seems the only separately available op.3 (almost certainly not by Haydn), there are of course lots of recordings of op.3#5 "Ladykillers serenade" They also have the pieces from opp.1+2 that turned out to be arrangements, originally not for string quartet (but reductions from sextets with horns or similar pieces for small mixed ensembles). Besides them, I think Tatrai and Auryn are the only separately available op.1 and 2. There is a superlative op.1 by the Petersen (infuriatingly the only Haydn they ever recorded). As even the remaining 10 authentic pieces from op.1+2 have been demoted from the main body of string quartets to "early divertimenti", apparently no HIP ensemble has recorded them. Sure, they are early, but still very nice and authentic Haydn with all the mixed divertimenti and woodwind stuff (most of which is spurious and probably not by Haydn) being recorded, it's a bit deplorable that they are mostly neglected.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 14, 2020, 01:43:58 AM

I am not against a complete box. Of those that have complete (or close to) boxes, the Angeles seems to tend to get the nod.

But of course there are a number of quartets that did record a lot, that have always been separate volumes.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 14, 2020, 01:59:57 AM

It's quite hard to get decent samples of the Auryn online. JPC seems the only option and they're not very long samples...

For those that know them, would I be right in thinking they're recorded in a reasonably reverberant acoustic? That's the impression I'm getting.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 14, 2020, 02:46:44 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on June 13, 2020, 10:03:23 AM
op.50 Amati/Divox (two discs, probably expensive)

If I understand what I'm seeing correctly, the 2 separate discs have fairly recently been reissued as a 2-CD set. So not expensive at all.

And it sounds pretty great. Of the things I've sampled so far, this is at the top of the pile. Along with the Mosaiques, which works fine as they recorded different opuses.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 14, 2020, 03:59:25 AM

You are right about the Amati Q., it's about two for one or less , so don't hesitate. They also have an op.77 but there are far more choices for these last completed quartets.
I have two vols. of the Auryn, opp. 17 and 33 (and an earlier recording op.71), I don't remember them as particularly reverberant but they are far from the direct and dry sound favored by a bunch of older recordings (and maybe even DG in the 1980s/90s). Tacet has an audiophile reputation and the Auryn series is/has been offered as DVD-A (a rather ill-fated format, I fear) or blu-ray, whatever. And they foolishly ask the same price for singles and doubles, so don't get opp.54 or 55, because one disc will cost as much as two of op.17 and 20. I'd be surprised if anyone had quibbles with the sound of these recordings.

The Angeles was reissued in a differently designed and labelled (Decca, originally Philips) but both seem oop. I think that this was underappreciated by some connoisseurs who had their shelves already well stocked. While they are not quite competitive with the best in the more frequently recorded pieces, they are very good and I am often very positively surprised when I do some comparison (e.g. a few months ago with parts of op.64). They are somewhat distantly recorded and the first violin tends to dominate which is a fault but not so much with up to op. 17 and not to such an extent that it devalues these recordings. But if they are not easily available for a reasonable price and you already own about half of the quartets, it ceases to be the bargain it was for me in the early 2000s.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Sergeant Rock on June 14, 2020, 05:09:52 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on June 14, 2020, 03:59:25 AMI'd be surprised if anyone had quibbles with the sound of these recordings.

I certainly don't. I have a nearly complete set (from op.9 on). Magnificent in all respects: balance, warmth, naturalness; judicious application of vibrato.

Sarge

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 14, 2020, 05:32:19 AM

Quote from: Madiel on June 13, 2020, 05:51:44 PM
That's nothing. Someone is trying to sell a volume of the Mosaiques for over $800.

A pity the artists themselves wouldn't see that money. (If a buyer be found)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 14, 2020, 05:44:40 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 14, 2020, 05:32:19 AM
A pity the artists themselves wouldn't see that money. (If a buyer be found)

Indeed.

I can't currently find the complete 10-CD edition of the Mosaiques for sale.** But I can find both separate editions of op.20 and op.33, and also a 5-CD set that had 20, 33 and the Seven Last Words. So that's an appealing option.

**The first Mosaiques I sampled was actually op.76 because those are the pieces I know best. It made a favourable impression so I wouldn't be averse to getting their recordings of works I already own.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 14, 2020, 06:26:22 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on June 14, 2020, 03:59:25 AM
I have two vols. of the Auryn, opp. 17 and 33 (and an earlier recording op.71), I don't remember them as particularly reverberant but they are far from the direct and dry sound favored by a bunch of older recordings (and maybe even DG in the 1980s/90s). Tacet has an audiophile reputation and the Auryn series is/has been offered as DVD-A (a rather ill-fated format, I fear) or blu-ray, whatever. And they foolishly ask the same price for singles and doubles, so don't get opp.54 or 55, because one disc will cost as much as two of op.17 and 20. I'd be surprised if anyone had quibbles with the sound of these recordings.

I know that Tacet have an audiophile reputation (which is what makes the difficulty of actually sampling most of the recordings so annoying).

I guess I just prefer a little dryer than what I'm hearing. The Seven Last Words is available on my streaming service (why only that, I've no idea!) so I will have a closer listen, but first impressions elsewhere were that it wasn't quite my thing.

Ironically, op.54/55 might be where I'd need them. There don't seem to be as many strong options for that set. Dare I say it now, the London Haydn Quartet have possibly improved by that point compared to what I heard from a different opus...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on June 14, 2020, 06:58:16 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on June 14, 2020, 03:59:25 AM
The Angeles was reissued in a differently designed and labelled (Decca, originally Philips) but both seem oop. I think that this was underappreciated by some connoisseurs who had their shelves already well stocked. While they are not quite competitive with the best in the more frequently recorded pieces, they are very good and I am often very positively surprised when I do some comparison (e.g. a few months ago with parts of op.64). They are somewhat distantly recorded and the first violin tends to dominate which is a fault but not so much with up to op. 17 and not to such an extent that it devalues these recordings. But if they are not easily available for a reasonable price and you already own about half of the quartets, it ceases to be the bargain it was for me in the early 2000s.

The Angeles are as competitive as anyone and more enjoyable than most. I think you are under-rating them. Also, distantly recorded? They are on the bright side if anything, so I don't understand this comment. They are bright and springy, and very well done. Personally, I'd take them over the Mosaiques any day. But then, there are truly very few bad recordings of these pieces that I have heard. I enjoyed the Hyperion recordings, for example, so perhaps my taste on this matter will not be the same as some.

I am not as enthusiastic about the Jerusalem or Tokyo Quartet as some are here, but again, they certainly are fine and play very well. I'd be surprised if you disliked them.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 14, 2020, 07:32:08 AM

I think there are quite a few rather mediocre recordings of Haydn quartets that might turn off those not already fans. Although I am basing this on only two discs of "real quartets + opp.2+3) I'd put the Kodaly into this reliable but rather boring class. The Buchberger are more exciting but somewhat scrappy, not up to the standard of top rank ensembles (such as Auryn, ABQ, Hagen etc.). The Angeles is better than both but I think the sound and balance is not always up to the best (not audiophile, just standard professional ca. 2000 sound) and they are on the bright side of everything, so they are underplaying the more serious/dramatic pieces, e.g. op.55/2 or the "Fifths".
Also note that I was recommending the Angeles and only put a few caveats in, the biggest is probably availability for a decent priece.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on June 14, 2020, 07:58:45 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 14, 2020, 05:32:19 AM
A pity the artists themselves wouldn't see that money. (If a buyer be found)

Unless one of them is selling their copy. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 14, 2020, 08:34:27 AM

Quote from: George on June 14, 2020, 07:58:45 AM
Unless one of them is selling their copy. ;D

A much-welcome chuckle, mijn goede vriend!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: aukhawk on June 14, 2020, 08:56:29 AM

QuoteChiaroscuro Quartet for. Op.20

Quote from: Mandryka on June 13, 2020, 11:43:01 PM
Have you heard their new op 76?

Heard it, bought it, got the high-res download.
With the 'socially-distanced' cover (BIS CEO's own description)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91kqFNFOaqL._SS500_.jpg)

But I'm not really able to comment, as this is the 'wrong end' of Haydn for me - I consider Op.20 was Haydn's peak and later Papa becomes progressively less interesting to me.

BTW, surveying what's out there and then ending up recommending the Kodalys in default of anything better is a bit desperate, isn't it guys? What about the Leipzig Quartet, they've got most bases covered.

And - filed under 'odds and ends' - I thoroughly recommend this grab-bag collection from the Quatuor Hanson - I probably play this more than any other single Haydn Quartets set.
Ops 50-6, 76-2, 54-2, 33-5, 20-5, 77-2.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61M1eGSM5JL._SS500_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 14, 2020, 09:08:49 AM

Leipzig is even more expensive than Auryn. I have not heard any of them... Not only because of the price but because they appeared slowly over a long time and my shelves were pretty saturated after 2009/10 the Leipzig Haydn flew under my radar. This will eventually be probably complete, the most recent Vols. 11 and 12 are op. 17 and appeared last fall or so.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on June 14, 2020, 10:24:57 AM

Quote from: aukhawk on June 14, 2020, 08:56:29 AM
But I'm not really able to comment, as this is the 'wrong end' of Haydn for me - I consider Op.20 was Haydn's peak and later Papa becomes progressively less interesting to me.

Interesting!! I only knew Op. 64 (Kodaly) and Op. 76 (Quartuor Mosaïques) and struggle to enjoy them so I never bothered to explore Haydn's String Quartets further thinking they just aren't my thing. Now I am streaming Op. 20/1 (Kodaly) on Spotify and holy shit! I am really liking it! :o I have just tried too "modern" stuff to my liking! Thanks for this "enlightement" ! 0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on June 14, 2020, 12:09:35 PM

If you don't mind lossy files and an older style Haydn playing from the 60s/70s (which I like very much, myself), I highly recommend the Vox "Mega" Box that combines the Dekany and Fine Arts Quartet Vox recordings.

https://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Complete-String-Quartets-VoxMegaBox/dp/B00YRDOGKQ

Qobuz has FLAC files, but I don't know if they are just upsampled versions of the MP3s.

https://open.qobuz.com/album/0047163598524

EDIT: I went ahead and bought the FLACs from Qobuz (only $8; I only paid something like $3 for the MP3s). I can report the FLACs are not just upsampled MP3s, as shown on the spectrograms below. These were generated by the app FakinTheFunk, a useful app for checking the quality of lossless files.

So I can confidently recommend the lossless downloads of this Vox set, if you can find them. They are actually cheaper on Qobuz than the MP3s on Amazon.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 14, 2020, 01:55:48 PM

Please stop talking as if the Kodaly would put people off. We are partly having this conversation - not just a Haydn conversation, but any conversation on GMG at all - because about 30 years ago I bought the Kodaly op.76 on cassette.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 14, 2020, 02:36:11 PM

Quote from: Madiel on June 14, 2020, 01:55:48 PM
Please stop talking as if the Kodaly would put people off. We are partly having this conversation - not just a Haydn conversation, but any conversation on GMG at all - because about 30 years ago I bought the Kodaly op.76 on cassette.

They were my introduction to every Haydn SQ except for Op 76. I would still say today that if I had never gotten another CD of Haydn quartets, I would still feel the music was as fabulous and eminently listenable as when I bought those in the mid to early 90's. If the Kodaly on Naxos are all you have, you're doing perfectly OK, in my opinion. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on June 14, 2020, 09:58:59 PM

Quote from: aukhawk on June 14, 2020, 08:56:29 AM

But I'm not really able to comment, as this is the 'wrong end' of Haydn for me - I consider Op.20 was Haydn's peak and later Papa becomes progressively less interesting to me.

Yes me too, in this case my lack of interest in the music has stopped me from hearing it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 15, 2020, 12:57:45 AM

Quote from: Madiel on June 14, 2020, 01:55:48 PM
Please stop talking as if the Kodaly would put people off. We are partly having this conversation - not just a Haydn conversation, but any conversation on GMG at all - because about 30 years ago I bought the Kodaly op.76 on cassette.

They could not put me off but neither could they convince me. The Kodaly's op.20,4-6 was among the first three or so Haydn quartet discs I bought around 1996 and I found it rather boring. The other disc I remember was a live one with the Lindsays, rough and sloppy but far more gripping. The third was a cheap disc with some Russian ensemble that included the "Rider" (not even sure about the rest, maybe the "Fifths" as well).
It is pprobably not relevant nowadays but in the 1990s the Penguine (or Gramophone or both) was totally enamored with the Kodaly Haydn, giving them most of them rosettes and 3 star gradings and hardly recommending anything else. Then there was the low Naxos price and for the newbie it was not clear that none of the Penguin guys was all that interested in Haydn, so solid and cheap was apparently enough for getting a top recommendation (they also recommended several of the rather mixed Haydn symphonies on Naxos), something they'd never have done with Beethoven or Sibelius symphonies, I think.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 15, 2020, 01:04:39 AM

Ahem. They did not give the same recommendation to all of the Kodaly. Op.76 was the top rating they gave. And as I still have a couple of old Penguin Guides I can tell you that they did not recommend op.20.

In other words, you're basically conflating your poor experience of an album in the series that the Penguin Guide said was one of the poorer ones with a statement about the entire series.

If you really want I can give you a blow by blow of the ratings that Kodaly got for different opuses as of the 2003 edition (I think that's the oldest complete book I still have), but I know for certain that in all editions, some opuses did not get 3 stars and I believe op.76 was the only one that ever got a Rosette. Certainly it wasn't most of them. You're just making stuff up, now.

EDIT: In fact in the 2003 edition op.20 gets the lowest rating from Penguin of any of the Kodaly albums. It was never recommended, so don't blame Penguin for you finding it boring.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on June 15, 2020, 01:25:36 AM

I happened to listen to Kodaly op 20/3 a couple of months ago and I thought it was one of the better modern instrument recordings I'd heard at least from the point of view of their conception of the music. What I mean is, it was serious, which i think is good.

But it's all so subjective, I can't see the point behind Mosaïques for example.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: amw on June 15, 2020, 01:47:16 AM

I have all the Auryns but can't recommend them as a go-to unless the set becomes available as a cheaper box or you're ok with digital piracy (the lack of the first one may lead to the second one). They are probably the best overall set though.

More specific recommendations:

Op.20 - Chiaroscuro, Pellegrini, Hagen
Op.33 - Casals, Apponyi
Op.50 - Nomos, London Haydn Quartet, Amati
Op.54 - Parkanyi, LHQ
Op.55 - LHQ
Op.64 - Doric
Op.71 - the early Auryn recording (before their complete cycle)
Op.74 -
Op.76 - Takács, potentially Chiaroscuro when done

I think at this point 50 is my favourite opus and definitely the one where I have the most recordings.

I have not heard the Kodály Quartet in a long time but I used to have their Op.76 and it was pretty good (no longer have it because I got rid of most of my MP3s to save space, and I'd checked it out from the library before I knew how to rip losslessly)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 15, 2020, 01:50:02 AM

Quote from: amw on June 15, 2020, 01:47:16 AM
I have all the Auryns but can't recommend them as a go-to unless the set becomes available as a cheaper box or you're ok with digital piracy (the lack of the first one may lead to the second one). They are probably the best overall set though.

More specific recommendations:

Op.20 - Chiaroscuro, Pellegrini, Hagen
Op.33 - Casals, Apponyi
Op.50 - Nomos, London Haydn Quartet, Amati
Op.54 - Parkanyi, LHQ
Op.55 - LHQ
Op.64 - Doric
Op.71 - the early Auryn recording (before their complete cycle)
Op.74 -
Op.76 - Takács, potentially Chiaroscuro when done

I think at this point 50 is my favourite opus and definitely the one where I have the most recordings.

I have not heard the Kodály Quartet in a long time but I used to have their Op.76 and it was pretty good (no longer have it because I got rid of most of my MP3s to save space, and I'd checked it out from the library before I knew how to rip losslessly)

So does this mean you think op.54/55 is one of the LHQ's best efforts?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on June 15, 2020, 02:43:27 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on June 15, 2020, 12:57:45 AM
The Kodaly's op.20,4-6 was among the first three or so Haydn quartet discs I bought around 1996 and I found it rather boring. The other disc I remember was a live one with the Lindsays, rough and sloppy but far more gripping.

I don't believe Naxos' philosophy is to be rough, sloppy but gripping... :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: amw on June 15, 2020, 02:49:39 AM

Quote from: Madiel on June 15, 2020, 01:50:02 AM
So does this mean you think op.54/55 is one of the LHQ's best efforts?

Yes, although I like all of their recordings generally so I may not be the most reliable source here. I remember the 54/55 and 64 being probably their strongest recordings though (although 20 and 33 are also good if you're interested in hearing alternative, somewhat "classicising" takes on these works).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on June 15, 2020, 02:54:36 AM

Quote from: amw on June 15, 2020, 01:47:16 AM
I have all the Auryns but can't recommend them as a go-to unless the set becomes available as a cheaper box or you're ok with digital piracy (the lack of the first one may lead to the second one). They are probably the best overall set though.

More specific recommendations:

Op.20 - Chiaroscuro, Pellegrini, Hagen
Op.33 - Casals, Apponyi
Op.50 - Nomos, London Haydn Quartet, Amati
Op.54 - Parkanyi, LHQ
Op.55 - LHQ
Op.64 - Doric
Op.71 - the early Auryn recording (before their complete cycle)
Op.74 -
Op.76 - Takács, potentially Chiaroscuro when done

I think at this point 50 is my favourite opus and definitely the one where I have the most recordings.

I have not heard the Kodály Quartet in a long time but I used to have their Op.76 and it was pretty good (no longer have it because I got rid of most of my MP3s to save space, and I'd checked it out from the library before I knew how to rip losslessly)

I am constantly amazed how people have time and money to be able to do lists like this. I would probably do this myself if Haydn was the only composer in the universe. Haydn was scary prolific, one the reasons I have never gotten well into his music. It's too much... ...but now I discoved Op. 20. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: amw on June 15, 2020, 03:07:42 AM

Quote from: 71 dB on June 15, 2020, 02:54:36 AM
I am constantly amazed how people have time and money to be able to do lists like this.

I multitask, mostly. I'm never really "just" listening to music (except at bedtime when I'll put it on to play overnight). Also I've done a lot of music piracy (and ripping library CDs, borrowing CDs from other people, etc).

(+ also I suppose I always am listening analytically because that's what I've been trained to do)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 15, 2020, 03:33:51 AM

Quote from: Madiel on June 15, 2020, 01:04:39 AM
Ahem. They did not give the same recommendation to all of the Kodaly. Op.76 was the top rating they gave. And as I still have a couple of old Penguin Guides I can tell you that they did not recommend op.20.

In other words, you're basically conflating your poor experience of an album in the series that the Penguin Guide said was one of the poorer ones with a statement about the entire series.

If you really want I can give you a blow by blow of the ratings that Kodaly got for different opuses as of the 2003 edition (I think that's the oldest complete book I still have), but I know for certain that in all editions, some opuses did not get 3 stars and I believe op.76 was the only one that ever got a Rosette. Certainly it wasn't most of them. You're just making stuff up, now.

EDIT: In fact in the 2003 edition op.20 gets the lowest rating from Penguin of any of the Kodaly albums. It was never recommended, so don't blame Penguin for you finding it boring.

I am not going to dispute this although I cannot check if these ratings were already the same in 1995 or maybe revised. But if you still have those Penguin guides you should be able to confirm how much they generally love the Kodaly. "Only" one Rosette, so what, there were plenty of 3 star or 2.5 star ratings. The general impression one received (at least in ca. 95/96) was that they were standard/top recommendations, I think for some opus numbers they hardly bothered to mention anyone besides Kodaly.
If you are so satisfied with the Kodaly, why not simply get the rest of theirs? Cheap, available separately, what's not to like?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 15, 2020, 03:35:09 AM

Quote from: amw on June 15, 2020, 02:49:39 AM
Yes, although I like all of their recordings generally so I may not be the most reliable source here. I remember the 54/55 and 64 being probably their strongest recordings though (although 20 and 33 are also good if you're interested in hearing alternative, somewhat "classicising" takes on these works).

Thanks. The first thing I tried sampling (first track of the op.9 album) just sounded dreadful to me. The brief sample of 54/55 was considerably better so I might go explore that one. Not least because, in the plan I'm gradually cobbling together, I don't yet have a clear candidate for that set of works.

Of course I might just throw the whole plan away and pick up the Kodaly box...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 15, 2020, 03:36:15 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on June 15, 2020, 03:33:51 AM
If you are so satisfied with the Kodaly, why not simply get the rest of theirs?

::) You might want to turn down the contrast so you can see shades of grey again. You're now doing to me EXACTLY what someone else did to you.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 15, 2020, 03:58:04 AM

Is anyone familiar with this?

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81zhOXxjocL._SS500_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 15, 2020, 04:00:18 AM

Quote from: 71 dB on June 15, 2020, 02:54:36 AM
I am constantly amazed how people have time and money to be able to do lists like this. I would probably do this myself if Haydn was the only composer in the universe. Haydn was scary prolific, one the reasons I have never gotten well into his music. It's too much... ...but now I discoved Op. 20. :)

You have to consider over how much time people do this. (And money has become a lesser concern with streaming and grey sources). Also, how much more some people might be interested in certain works, e.g. Haydn quartets. I got the Angeles box in the early 2000s. I am not sure, but I think I had roughly half of the pieces before on disc, so we are talking about 20-25 years (considering that I maybe bought the first Haydn quartet disc 1995)
Besides this I have or have had the following physically on my shelves (bought discs, not copies or downloads) with those in brackets I got rid of again. I have listened to all of them with the exception of a few in the Amadeus and Pro Arte boxes (I am not listing all the historical Pro Arte because that's too much work, see below)

op.1 Petersen
op.3 etc. Kodaly
op.9 Festetics, Buchberger
op.17 Festetics, Auryn, (Kodaly 3,5,6)
op.20 Hagen, Tatrai, Mosaiques (Festetics, Kodaly 4-6)
op.33 Weller, Casals, Auryn, Apponyi (Buchberger)
op.50 Festetics, Amati (Nomos)
op.51 Cherubini, Mosaiques, Amadeus
op.54 Endellion, Amadeus, Festetics, (Juilliard as LP dubs)
op.55 Amadeus, Festetics, Panocha
op.64 Caspar da Salo, Festetics, Amadeus, Mosaiques (1,3,6) (Festetics (old), Orlando 4-6)
op.71 Auryn (old), Festetics, Amadeus, Griller
op.74 Festetics, Amadeus, Griller
op.76 Tatrai, Carmina, Mosaiques, Eder(2-4), (Tokyo)
op.77 Mosaiques, Archibudelli, Amati

1 disc Anthologies; Hagen, 2xSchuppanzigh, 2xJerusalem, Hungarian, 2xLindsay, Janacek, Juilliard

[asin]B071FL96LX[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on June 15, 2020, 09:54:29 AM

Quote from: amw on June 15, 2020, 03:07:42 AM
I multitask, mostly. I'm never really "just" listening to music (except at bedtime when I'll put it on to play overnight). Also I've done a lot of music piracy (and ripping library CDs, borrowing CDs from other people, etc).

(+ also I suppose I always am listening analytically because that's what I've been trained to do)

I used to listen to music almost all the time ~20 years ago, but nowadays I almost prefer silence. 1-2 hours of music per day seems to be enough. Multitasking weakens my ability to listen analytically, but it depents on what I do. For example when I write posts here concentrating on music is difficult because a lot of my brain power goes to "linguistic" tasks, But I can watch TV without sound while listening to music, because those use different areas in my brain.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on June 15, 2020, 10:31:29 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on June 15, 2020, 04:00:18 AM
You have to consider over how much time people do this. (And money has become a lesser concern with streaming and grey sources). Also, how much more some people might be interested in certain works, e.g. Haydn quartets. I got the Angeles box in the early 2000s. I am not sure, but I think I had roughly half of the pieces before on disc, so we are talking about 20-25 years (considering that I maybe bought the first Haydn quartet disc 1995)
Besides this I have or have had the following physically on my shelves (bought discs, not copies or downloads) with those in brackets I got rid of again. I have listened to all of them with the exception of a few in the Amadeus and Pro Arte boxes (I am not listing all the historical Pro Arte because that's too much work, see below)

op.1 Petersen
op.3 etc. Kodaly
op.9 Festetics, Buchberger
op.17 Festetics, Auryn, (Kodaly 3,5,6)
op.20 Hagen, Tatrai, Mosaiques (Festetics, Kodaly 4-6)
op.33 Weller, Casals, Auryn, Apponyi (Buchberger)
op.50 Festetics, Amati (Nomos)
op.51 Cherubini, Mosaiques, Amadeus
op.54 Endellion, Amadeus, Festetics, (Juilliard as LP dubs)
op.55 Amadeus, Festetics, Panocha
op.64 Caspar da Salo, Festetics, Amadeus, Mosaiques (1,3,6) (Festetics (old), Orlando 4-6)
op.71 Auryn (old), Festetics, Amadeus, Griller
op.74 Festetics, Amadeus, Griller
op.76 Tatrai, Carmina, Mosaiques, Eder(2-4), (Tokyo)
op.77 Mosaiques, Archibudelli, Amati

1 disc Anthologies; Hagen, 2xSchuppanzigh, 2xJerusalem, Hungarian, 2xLindsay, Janacek, Juilliard

[asin]B071FL96LX[/asin]

Wow. I have:

Op. 64 Kodaly (bought about 20 years ago)
Op. 76 Mosaïques (bought about 10 years ago)

I started with Op. 64 knowing nothing about Haydn's String Quartets because "64" is a cool number (8^2, 4^3, 2^6). I never felt the playing or sound was lacking. I just wasn't a lot into the music so I didn't explore further until about 10 years later when somebody must have recommended Op. 76, I wasn't into that either. Now I realized Op. 20 seems to be a lot to my liking so I am going to get it (Kodaly) and maybe explore opus numbers "near" 20.

So, how well do you know Dittersdorf's String Quartets? :) I have the two CPO discs (Franz Schubert Quartet) and enjoy them a lot.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 15, 2020, 02:50:56 PM

Quote from: 71 dB on June 15, 2020, 09:54:29 AM
I used to listen to music almost all the time ~20 years ago, but nowadays I almost prefer silence. 1-2 hours of music per day seems to be enough. Multitasking weakens my ability to listen analytically, but it depents on what I do. For example when I write posts here concentrating on music is difficult because a lot of my brain power goes to "linguistic" tasks, But I can watch TV without sound while listening to music, because those use different areas in my brain.

Interesting, I find I can do most things whilst listening to music* including reading (but not reading poetry interestingly) as long as there isn't any extra sound. However one thing I have found is that if I eat whilst listening to music the food has no taste (nearby area of the brain).
* ie on headphones

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 15, 2020, 04:40:29 PM

Quote from: 71 dB on June 15, 2020, 02:54:36 AM
I am constantly amazed how people have time and money to be able to do lists like this. I would probably do this myself if Haydn was the only composer in the universe. Haydn was scary prolific, one the reasons I have never gotten well into his music. It's too much... ...but now I discoved Op. 20. :)

Excellent!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on June 15, 2020, 04:59:17 PM

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on June 15, 2020, 02:50:56 PM
Interesting, I find I can do most things whilst listening to music* including reading (but not reading poetry interestingly) as long as there isn't any extra sound. However one thing I have found is that if I eat whilst listening to music the food has no taste (nearby area of the brain).
* ie on headphones

Well, I can listen to music while doing other things, but my concentration and ability to be analytic is compromised. So, if I want to concentrate properly the things I can do at the same time are limited. Reading isn't an issue, because that's somewhat passive, but writing text seems to jam my ability to "jam" ;D

Food having no taste while listening to music sounds wild. I have to test that next time I'm eating! I haven't noticed anything like this.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on June 15, 2020, 04:59:47 PM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 15, 2020, 04:40:29 PM
Excellent!

0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 16, 2020, 01:31:22 AM

I have one of the cpo Dittersdorf discs with 4 quartets and decided that this was enough and I didn't need the companion volume. But I have about 7-8 discs with Boccherini quartets, also the quartets by FX Richter. I am interested to some extent in lesser known classical era chamber music. But I think I have more or less enough there as well (I got rid of a chamber music disc with quintets by Michael Haydn because I found it very boring despite first rate playing by L'archibudelli).

As for the Haydn quartets, I am not really buying any new recordings now (although I am tempted by the Doric (20, 64, 76) who got rave reviews). The last I got was the Auryn op.17 because I wanted about one HIP and one modern for each opus in addition to the Angeles box, and I could not resist the cheap Pro Arte box because they are considered "classics" and among the earliest Haydn quartet recordings. Another reason was that I wasn't really entirely happy with any of the recordings I had so I kept buying new ones. And strangely, I am still not entirely happy with any of my op.33 recordings although I have more of this one than of any other (except for singles that show up on recitals like "Lark" or "Fifths"). The Casals are a bit too driven in some movements and the Auryn a bit too relaxed (e.g. I don't think they get the "hungarian" flavor of the b minor finale) and fuzzy. That's why I keep them all...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on June 16, 2020, 02:25:04 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on June 16, 2020, 01:31:22 AM
I have one of the cpo Dittersdorf discs with 4 quartets and decided that this was enough and I didn't need the companion volume. But I have about 7-8 discs with Boccherini quartets, also the quartets by FX Richter. I am interested to some extent in lesser known classical era chamber music. But I think I have more or less enough there as well (I got rid of a chamber music disc with quintets by Michael Haydn because I found it very boring despite first rate playing by L'archibudelli).

Boccherini has been a composer who I have always liked, but never realized the fact until recently. Recently I ordered one cheap CPO disc of his String Quartets. My Boccherini collection contains other works: Flute Quintets, Guitar Quintets, Cello Sonatas, Cello Concertos and Symphonies. These discs have "sneaked" into my collection because I have always liked him, but never really actively/systematically explored/collected him.

As for Michael Haydn, I have two discs of his music: A Divertimenti CD on CPO and a Sacret Choral Music CD on BIS, both nice. Michael Haydn I think was a pretty fine composer, but totally eclipsed by his older brother. :P

Dittersdorf has always been a composer I have felt offers what I want from music of this era. The music is enthralling to me. Maybe people expect Haydn's style in Dittersdorf, but that's not happening. I find them quite different composers stylistically despite of influencing each other.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 16, 2020, 04:10:08 AM

I have a bunch of symphonies by Michael Haydn which I rather like although they are overall less ambitious and interesting than his brother's. Apparently his strongest field was choral/church music, supposedly even admitted by Josef that his brother was better with church music (I guess before Josef wrote his own late choral works...)
It's been a long time I listened to the Dittersdorf quartets (I have a programmatic symphony or a few as well on some anthology) but I found some notes/remarks on them and I was rather disappointed back then. Violin-dominated, almost concertante at times, entertaining but overall rather shallow.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: BasilValentine on June 16, 2020, 04:54:53 AM

Quote from: 71 dB on June 15, 2020, 02:54:36 AM
I am constantly amazed how people have time and money to be able to do lists like this. I would probably do this myself if Haydn was the only composer in the universe. Haydn was scary prolific, one the reasons I have never gotten well into his music. It's too much... ...but now I discoved Op. 20. :)

Last year I spent a few weeks listening to all of Haydn's symphonies without spending a penny. Youtube. I had heard many of them before of course, but wanted to make sure I had heard them all. Time was a consideration because I only listened when I was able to give the music my full attention, but I can do that while cooking, eating, and staring out of the windows. And the symphonies aren't all that long.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on June 16, 2020, 04:58:33 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on June 16, 2020, 04:10:08 AM
I have a bunch of symphonies by Michael Haydn which I rather like although they are overall less ambitious and interesting than his brother's. Apparently his strongest field was choral/church music, supposedly even admitted by Josef that his brother was better with church music (I guess before Josef wrote his own late choral works...)
It's been a long time I listened to the Dittersdorf quartets (I have a programmatic symphony or a few as well on some anthology) but I found some notes/remarks on them and I was rather disappointed back then. Violin-dominated, almost concertante at times, entertaining but overall rather shallow.

I very much enjoy Michael Haydn's symphonies. Those CPO cd's are excellent and the music is full of joy. Can't recommend them enough if the period is of interest.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 16, 2020, 05:04:42 AM

Of Michael Haydn have one of the cpo discs, one with the Franz Liszt Chamber orchestra on Teldec and about 4 with Farberman on Vox or Alto. The last mentioned were probably my favorite, but they may not all be available and the series was never completed. As I said, I found a chamber music disc on Sony Vivarte very boring compared with the symphonies (or with Josef Haydn's quartets).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on June 16, 2020, 07:36:51 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 14, 2020, 08:34:27 AM
A much-welcome chuckle, mijn goede vriend!

Something we could all use in these times.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on June 16, 2020, 09:59:55 AM

Quote from: BasilValentine on June 16, 2020, 04:54:53 AM
Last year I spent a few weeks listening to all of Haydn's symphonies without spending a penny. Youtube. I had heard many of them before of course, but wanted to make sure I had heard them all. Time was a consideration because I only listened when I was able to give the music my full attention, but I can do that while cooking, eating, and staring out of the windows. And the symphonies aren't all that long.

Many many years ago I did listen to all of Haydn's Symphonies (Dorati). It was a "massive" task, but only one cycle! Of course I have pretty much forgotten how the Symphonies here so I can't even say which Symphonies I like the best (I think I liked #22 a lot, but I might remember wrong.) Of course I have zero insight into which recordings are better than others. I do have one Naxos disc of Symphonies 50-52 which is nice imo. These Symphonies are from 1771-73, around the same time his Op. 20 String Quartets are which I seem to like a lot, so maybe this "around 1770-75" might be the right Haydn period for me? That's something I'm planning to investigate. Also, I'm beginning to suspect late Haydn is not for me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 16, 2020, 10:17:42 AM

Quote from: 71 dB on June 16, 2020, 09:59:55 AM
Many many years ago I did listen to all of Haydn's Symphonies (Dorati). It was a "massive" task, but only one cycle! Of course I have pretty much forgotten how the Symphonies here so I can't even say which Symphonies I like the best (I think I liked #22 a lot, but I might remember wrong.) Of course I have zero insight into which recordings are better than others. I do have one Naxos disc of Symphonies 50-52 which is nice imo. These Symphonies are from 1771-73, around the same time his Op. 20 String Quartets are which I seem to like a lot, so maybe this "around 1770-75" might be the right Haydn period for me? That's something I'm planning to investigate. Also, I'm beginning to suspect late Haydn is not for me.

It is a long-term project for me to have better recall of the Haydn symphonies. Happily, I'm in no rush :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 16, 2020, 12:22:37 PM

10-12 years ago at the time of the Haydn anniversary there was a website where one could listen to almost three complete sets of Haydn symphonies online: Dorati, Fischer and the ones Hogwood recorded (all but about 20 or so mostly late ones). I didn't mostly use this website but ca. 2008-10 I listened to all Haydn symphonies, roughly 1-3/week. There are other tricks one can use. In spring 2010 I lived temporarily around 4 months in a very small apartment at a new workplace before getting my own and I only took a few CD boxes, one of which was all Haydn quartets with the Angeles. This was before I had access to streaming or similar online music, so I "had to listen" to what I had present.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: aukhawk on June 17, 2020, 02:44:27 AM

Quote from: 71 dB on June 16, 2020, 09:59:55 AM
Many many years ago I did listen to all of Haydn's Symphonies (Dorati). It was a "massive" task, but only one cycle!

Given that the Dorati recordings are (a bit unfairly) rather dismissed these days in the light of more recent offerings - that was a fine marathon effort!

QuoteI do have one Naxos disc of Symphonies 50-52 which is nice imo. These Symphonies are from 1771-73, around the same time his Op. 20 String Quartets are which I seem to like a lot, so maybe this "around 1770-75" might be the right Haydn period for me? That's something I'm planning to investigate. Also, I'm beginning to suspect late Haydn is not for me.

To quote from my trusty Faber Pocket Guide to Haydn -
"The promise of Op.9 and especially Op.17 is richly fulfilled in the Op.20 Quartets of 1772, an annus mirabilis which also saw the production of three magnificent symphonies, Nos 45-7. ... the quartets display a mastery only intermittently glimpsed in Op.9 and Op.17 ... Op.20 left a profound impression on Mozart, and on Beethoven who copied out No.1 in 1794. Brahms owned the autographed manuscripts until he bequeathed them ...
... much of the writing suggests a 'conversation between four intelligent people' ... a reminder that the art of civilised, witty conversation was avidly cultivated in eighteenth-century salons."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on June 17, 2020, 04:51:05 AM

Quote from: aukhawk on June 17, 2020, 02:44:27 AM
Given that the Dorati recordings are (a bit unfairly) rather dismissed these days in the light of more recent offerings - that was a fine marathon effort!

I happened to have the mp3s... $:)

Quote from: aukhawk on June 17, 2020, 02:44:27 AMTo quote from my trusty Faber Pocket Guide to Haydn -
"The promise of Op.9 and especially Op.17 is richly fulfilled in the Op.20 Quartets of 1772, an annus mirabilis which also saw the production of three magnificent symphonies, Nos 45-7. ... the quartets display a mastery only intermittently glimpsed in Op.9 and Op.17 ... Op.20 left a profound impression on Mozart, and on Beethoven who copied out No.1 in 1794. Brahms owned the autographed manuscripts until he bequeathed them ...
... much of the writing suggests a 'conversation between four intelligent people' ... a reminder that the art of civilised, witty conversation was avidly cultivated in eighteenth-century salons."

Ok, I need to revisit Symphonies Nos. 45-47. Thanks! Frankly Haydn was so prolific the best 10 % of his music is more than I "need." 0:)

If this "annus mirabilis ~~1905~~ 1772" turns out to be the most suitable period in Haydn's output to me, I can go backward and forward in time and see how fast things start to fall apart for me. The feature I don't like about Haydn's later String Quartets (Opp. 64 & 76) is the "pulsing", constant staccato in fast movements which I found tiresome and even lame. Op. 20 had much more legato in fast movements, the slow movement are gold and I love that and for example the fugue of No. 5 is damn good, almost J. S. Bach good and that's saying a lot!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Papy Oli on June 19, 2020, 06:10:45 AM

Quote from: Madiel on June 14, 2020, 05:44:40 AM
Indeed.

I can't currently find the complete 10-CD edition of the Mosaiques for sale.** But I can find both separate editions of op.20 and op.33, and also a 5-CD set that had 20, 33 and the Seven Last Words. So that's an appealing option.

**The first Mosaiques I sampled was actually op.76 because those are the pieces I know best. It made a favourable impression so I wouldn't be averse to getting their recordings of works I already own.

Madiel,
not sure if downloads are an acceptable option for you but Qobuz have a sale on Boxsetswhich includes the Mosaiques for £20.15 in CD quality :

https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/complete-haydn-recordings-quatuor-mosaiques-erich-hobarth-andrea-bischof-anita-mitterer-christophe-coin/eergw67yo8pjb (https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/complete-haydn-recordings-quatuor-mosaiques-erich-hobarth-andrea-bischof-anita-mitterer-christophe-coin/eergw67yo8pjb)

the Festetics are also in there for £20.99:

https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/joseph-haydn-the-complete-string-quartets-played-on-period-instruments-festetics-quartet/3760195733783 (https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/joseph-haydn-the-complete-string-quartets-played-on-period-instruments-festetics-quartet/3760195733783)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 19, 2020, 08:01:24 PM

Quote from: Papy Oli on June 19, 2020, 06:10:45 AM
Madiel,
not sure if downloads are an acceptable option for you but Qobuz have a sale on Boxsetswhich includes the Mosaiques for £20.15 in CD quality :

https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/complete-haydn-recordings-quatuor-mosaiques-erich-hobarth-andrea-bischof-anita-mitterer-christophe-coin/eergw67yo8pjb (https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/complete-haydn-recordings-quatuor-mosaiques-erich-hobarth-andrea-bischof-anita-mitterer-christophe-coin/eergw67yo8pjb)

the Festetics are also in there for £20.99:

https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/joseph-haydn-the-complete-string-quartets-played-on-period-instruments-festetics-quartet/3760195733783 (https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/joseph-haydn-the-complete-string-quartets-played-on-period-instruments-festetics-quartet/3760195733783)

Thanks. I'll use downloads if necessary, but not my preference. And I cannot use Qobuz in any case.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on June 22, 2020, 04:23:27 PM

Did some "homework" concerning Haydn. The exact date of composition isn't always known, but according to Wikipedia the following Symphonies are written around 1770-1775:

Nos. 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 50, 51, 52 and 64.

I listened to again Nos. 42, 43, 45 and 46 (Dorati) and yes, I do like them. Seems the correct Haydn period for me. Among the Piano Sonatas the Esterházy Sonatas are from 1773, but I have to figure out if the optimal Haydn period for me is the same among different genres*. I happen to have (sometimes you find BIS cheap) the last three of the Esterházy Sonatas on a BIS CD played by Ronald Brautigam.

If it turns out 1770-1775 Haydn is "my thing" it certainly helps reducing the very large output of a this prolific composer to something I can manage better + help me enjoy this composer, something I have kind of strugged with because a lot of his works just don't work for me it seems, but some other works are most enjoyable... :P I have always been a bit "lost" with Haydn, but maybe this helps...

* Among Oratorios/Masses late Haydn seems to work for me just fine.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 22, 2020, 07:25:57 PM

Quote from: 71 dB on June 22, 2020, 04:23:27 PM
Did some "homework" concerning Haydn. The exact date of composition isn't always known, but according to Wikipedia the following Symphonies are written around 1770-1775:

Nos. 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 50, 51, 52 and 64.

I listened to again Nos. 42, 43, 45 and 46 (Dorati) and yes, I do like them. Seems the correct Haydn period for me. Among the Piano Sonatas the Esterházy Sonatas are from 1773, but I have to figure out if the optimal Haydn period for me is the same among different genres*. I happen to have (sometimes you find BIS cheap) the last three of the Esterházy Sonatas on a BIS CD played by Ronald Brautigam.

If it turns out 1770-1775 Haydn is "my thing" it certainly helps reducing the very large output of a this prolific composer to something I can manage better + help me enjoy this composer, something I have kind of strugged with because a lot of his works just don't work for me it seems, but some other works are most enjoyable... :P I have always been a bit "lost" with Haydn, but maybe this helps...

* Among Oratorios/Masses late Haydn seems to work for me just fine.

That's actually a very good way to go about it. Just make sure you don't get sidetracked into worrying about what artist(s)/recordings you can get. Just listen to the music.

Here is a page that has all of Haydn's music from the 1770's (https://tinyurl.com/yx79ln9g) in one place. The symphonies have, like, 3 or 4 different numbering systems, so they are listed side-by-side here, but everything else is very straightforward. Quite handy, I use it all the time.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 22, 2020, 11:27:17 PM

Among the so called "Sturm and Drang" symphonies they are usually counted a few more from the late 1760s, e.g. 39, 48, 49, 59 etc., overall about 20 pieces but it is not a totally sharp distinction. The most famous piano sonata from that time is the one in c minor hob. 16:20 and maybe the A flat major Hob.16:46. There are a bunch more but it seems that the dating of the sonatas is even more uncertain than of the symphonies.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on June 23, 2020, 04:15:01 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 22, 2020, 07:25:57 PM
That's actually a very good way to go about it. Just make sure you don't get sidetracked into worrying about what artist(s)/recordings you can get. Just listen to the music.

Here is a page that has all of Haydn's music from the 1770's (https://tinyurl.com/yx79ln9g) in one place. The symphonies have, like, 3 or 4 different numbering systems, so they are listed side-by-side here, but everything else is very straightforward. Quite handy, I use it all the time.

8)

Thanks Gurn! This might be of some help. different numbering systems for the Symphonies is a mess... :-X

Quote from: Jo498 on June 22, 2020, 11:27:17 PM
Among the so called "Sturm and Drang" symphonies they are usually counted a few more from the late 1760s, e.g. 39, 48, 49, 59 etc., overall about 20 pieces but it is not a totally sharp distinction. The most famous piano sonata from that time is the one in c minor hob. 16:20 and maybe the A flat major Hob.16:46. There are a bunch more but it seems that the dating of the sonatas is even more uncertain than of the symphonies.

"Sturm and Drang" is perhaps not the only thing that makes this period work for me.

I have Hob. XVI: 20, but not 46.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on June 23, 2020, 08:04:32 AM

Something different from Haydn:

Haydn & The Harp: Light Delights
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EbNWrdFUcAAEXSD?format=jpg&name=small) (https://www.classicstoday.com/review/haydn-the-harp-light-delights/)
[insider content, alas]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 23, 2020, 09:06:46 AM

Great to "see" you, Jens!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 23, 2020, 10:05:41 AM

I am not fond of the "Sturm and Drang" moniker either. I just wanted to point out that there are a few more pieces often subsumed under this dubious label that might be worth checking out.
And there is absolutely no problem with the numbering of Haydn symphonies as there is only one common system, Hoboken, (even though there are alternative numberings they are almost never used on records or in concerts). It is more complicated with the trios and sonatas, but the symphonies are straightforward.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on June 23, 2020, 11:13:36 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 23, 2020, 09:06:46 AM
Great to "see" you, Jens!

Ditto.

Maybe he'll start doing youtube reviews like Hurwitz. That'd be cool.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 24, 2020, 05:25:24 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on June 23, 2020, 10:05:41 AM
And there is absolutely no problem with the numbering of Haydn symphonies as there is only one common system, Hoboken.

Of course there's a problem with the numbering. The problem is that the Hoboken system, while common, is wrong. It doesn't reflect the sequence of composition, which is something it claimed to represent (and indeed, is the whole rationale for most numbering systems).

That's like saying there's no problem with a calculation being incorrect so long as everyone agrees to use the same errors.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on June 24, 2020, 05:34:23 AM

Quote from: Madiel on June 24, 2020, 05:25:24 AM
Of course there's a problem with the numbering. The problem is that the Hoboken system, while common, is wrong. It doesn't reflect the sequence of composition, which is something it claimed to represent (and indeed, is the whole rationale for most numbering systems).

That's like saying there's no problem with a calculation being incorrect so long as everyone agrees to use the same errors.

Is it even possible to have a correct numbering system? Often scholars don't even know who actually wrote a work let alone when. Having a common numbering system, correct or incorrect, is the relevant thing here so everybody knows what work we are talking about when somebody says for example Hob. VIIb:1.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 24, 2020, 05:51:03 AM

Quote from: 71 dB on June 24, 2020, 05:34:23 AM
Is it even possible to have a correct numbering system? Often scholars don't even know who actually wrote a work let alone when. Having a common numbering system, correct or incorrect, is the relevant thing here so everybody knows what work we are talking about when somebody says for example Hob. VIIb:1.

Are you talking in general, or for Haydn?

It's absolutely possible to have a correct numbering system in general. Some composers have done a very good job of enabling us to have one. In some cases, even when publishers ignored it.

As for Haydn, why do you think people CREATED the different numbering systems? It's because they were aware of the deficiencies of the first one.

But if you want to argue that first person to come with a system automatically wins, no matter how misleading that system is as to what symphony belongs when... well that's a very odd stance given that you are the one specifically wanting symphonies from a particular time period. You're actually looking up when symphonies are thought to have been composed, and yet now you're shrugging your shoulders and saying "oh well, often we don't know". Do you want that information to hand or don't you?

And as I've said, Hoboken's aim was a chronological system. That was his intended goal. He didn't entirely succeed.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 24, 2020, 08:38:32 AM

Quote from: Madiel on June 24, 2020, 05:25:24 AM
Of course there's a problem with the numbering. The problem is that the Hoboken system, while common, is wrong. It doesn't reflect the sequence of composition, which is something it claimed to represent (and indeed, is the whole rationale for most numbering systems).

That's like saying there's no problem with a calculation being incorrect so long as everyone agrees to use the same errors.

There isn't a problem in practice unless you obsessively decide to make it one. The practical function of numberings in music is closer to phone numbers (i.e. a unique and rigid mapping of the set of pieces to a certain set of numbers) than to calculations.
No sane person would obsess about differences in order of composition and publication in Beethoven's first two piano concertos or the quartets op.131 and 132 and so on. And it's similar with Haydn symphonies. Problems begin when one needs to consult catalogues and concordances because different numbering systems can make it difficult to identify a pieces. No such problems exist right now with Haydn symphonies because everyone sticks to the old numbering (pre-dating Hoboken, it was first done by Eusebius Mandyczewski). There are a few numbers that are misleading (e.g. #40 and #72 being much earlier than one would think) but most give a pretty close indication to their composition date (if it is known sufficiently precisely at all). There are also differences between order of composition and publication or first performance that are impossible to solve except by convention. So why not avoid confusing people with new numberings and simply stick to the conventional ones.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on June 24, 2020, 08:47:00 AM

Quote from: Madiel on June 24, 2020, 05:51:03 AM
Are you talking in general, or for Haydn?

In general, but what I said applies mostly (prolific) composers long ago. What and when Brahms composed is much better known than what and when Haydn wrote. Prolific composers seem to have been a bit "careless" about documenting their own working. My boss teached me to ALWAYS write the date on the papers you are working with, because a few years later you may need to come back and know more or less exact dates for what happened and when. "Were the pipe size calculations made before or after October 10, 2010?" for example. Then you thank yourself when you see the date "October 6, 2020" on the paper or document.

Quote from: Madiel on June 24, 2020, 05:51:03 AMIt's absolutely possible to have a correct numbering system in general. Some composers have done a very good job of enabling us to have one. In some cases, even when publishers ignored it.

Sure. Of course you can document your working well and some people do, but famous classical composers were often geniuses and intelligent people tend to have more chaotic working style because they can manage it. Chaos can even be a source of creativity. One of my past working pals, unquestionably very intelligent, used calendars for two years: So he would use for example the 2001 calendar also in 2002 not worrying about the days shifting by one (or two when leap year happens). Sometimes he was wondering if a markup was for this or previous year, but when your IQ is around 170 you can do it and not feel stupid when other people around say to you it would be so much easier to just use the correct calender for every year...

Quote from: Madiel on June 24, 2020, 05:51:03 AMBut if you want to argue that first person to come with a system automatically wins, no matter how misleading that system is as to what symphony belongs when... well that's a very odd stance given that you are the one specifically wanting symphonies from a particular time period. You're actually looking up when symphonies are thought to have been composed, and yet now you're shrugging your shoulders and saying "oh well, often we don't know". Do you want that information to hand or don't you?

Of course the exact year of composing can be given in liner notes: "This Symphony was written in 1787." for example, because opus numbers no matter how correct do not tell the year.

Quote from: Madiel on June 24, 2020, 05:51:03 AMAnd as I've said, Hoboken's aim was a chronological system. That was his intended goal. He didn't entirely succeed.

Hoboken seems to be "quite" chronological and Haydn exthusiasts in no doubt learn whenever it's not.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mahlerian on June 24, 2020, 09:04:26 AM

Quote from: 71 dB on June 24, 2020, 08:47:00 AM
In general, but what I said applies mostly (prolific) composers long ago. What and when Brahms composed is much better known than what and when Haydn wrote. Prolific composers seem to have been a bit "careless" about documenting their own working. My boss teached me to ALWAYS write the date on the papers you are working with, because a few years later you may need to come back and know more or less exact dates for what happened and when. "Were the pipe size calculations made before or after October 10, 2010?" for example. Then you thank yourself when you see the date "October 6, 2020" on the paper or document.
Sure. Of course you can document your working well and some people do, but famous classical composers were often geniuses and intelligent people tend to have more chaotic working style because they can manage it. Chaos can even be a source of creativity. One of my past working pals, unquestionably very intelligent, used calendars for two years: So he would use for example the 2001 calendar also in 2002 not worrying about the days shifting by one (or two when leap year happens). Sometimes he was wondering if a markup was for this or previous year, but when your IQ is around 170 you can do it and not feel stupid when other people around say to you it would be so much easier to just use the correct calender for every year...

I don't think it's a matter of temperament, much less intellectual ability, but rather a very different way of conceiving and thinking about musical works from our modern ideas. The early Haydn symphonies would have been written for specific performances, and were not produced to serve as a lasting testament to their composer's abilities so much as a refined form of entertainment. That we see them differently is a testament to their ability to function within both the older context and the newer one.

If you were to prepare a speech or a presentation for a given occasion, only the most vain or self-conscious among us would carefully date the product for the sake of scholars or researchers. Composers in Haydn's day were seen as craftsmen or, in Kant's comparison, decorators, rather than artists, and although some of their works were preserved for the study and enjoyment of later generations, the ideas we have today about following a composer's development and enjoying the arc of their entire career would have been completely foreign.

So it makes sense that Bach, Haydn, and Mozart didn't bother doing much to help scholars along. Of course, scholars in turn have become far more aware of details, such as paper type and handwriting, that composers would have taken no notice of whatsoever.

The reason why the less prolific composers of the 19th and 20th centuries tended to preserve a record of the creation of their works more than those of previous eras can be traced to that same shift from composer as artisan to composer as artist.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on June 24, 2020, 09:07:51 AM

Quote from: Mahlerian on June 24, 2020, 09:04:26 AM
I don't think it's a matter of temperament, much less intellectual ability, but rather a very different way of conceiving and thinking about musical works from our modern ideas. The early Haydn symphonies would have been written for specific performances, and were not produced to serve as a lasting testament to their composer's abilities so much as a refined form of entertainment. That we see them differently is a testament to their ability to function within both the older context and the newer one.

If you were to prepare a speech or a presentation for a given occasion, only the most vain or self-conscious among us would carefully date the product for the sake of scholars or researchers. Composers in Haydn's day were seen as craftsmen or, in Kant's comparison, decorators, rather than artists, and although some of their works were preserved for the study and enjoyment of later generations, the ideas we have today about following a composer's development and enjoying the arc of their entire career would have been completely foreign.

So it makes sense that Bach, Haydn, and Mozart didn't bother doing much to help scholars along. Of course, scholars in turn have become far more aware of details, such as paper type and handwriting, that composers would have taken no notice of whatsoever.

The reason why the less prolific composers of the 19th and 20th centuries tended to preserve a record of the creation of their works more than those of previous eras can be traced to that same shift from composer as artisan to composer as artist.

Excellent points.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on June 24, 2020, 09:28:57 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on June 24, 2020, 08:38:32 AM
There isn't a problem in practice unless you obsessively decide to make it one. The practical function of numberings in music is closer to phone numbers (i.e. a unique and rigid mapping of the set of pieces to a certain set of numbers) than to calculations.
No sane person would obsess about differences in order of composition and publication in Beethoven's first two piano concertos or the quartets op.131 and 132 and so on. And it's similar with Haydn symphonies. Problems begin when one needs to consult catalogues and concordances because different numbering systems can make it difficult to identify a pieces. No such problems exist right now with Haydn symphonies because everyone sticks to the old numbering (pre-dating Hoboken, it was first done by Eusebius Mandyczewski). There are a few numbers that are misleading (e.g. #40 and #72 being much earlier than one would think) but most give a pretty close indication to their composition date (if it is known sufficiently precisely at all). There are also differences between order of composition and publication or first performance that are impossible to solve except by convention. So why not avoid confusing people with new numberings and simply stick to the conventional ones.

I got interested of this issue more and read the page given by Gurn about Chronology. I was surprised to read the Hoboken numbering is from 1950's (really that "new"? I though the numbering was from early 19th century not long after the composer was put 6 feet under!) and even Eusebius Mandyczewski numbering is from 1907! So there was no numbering in the 19th century at all? Wow! I guess it didn't matter much because people were not collecting Haydn's Symphonies on CD. :) It seem a lot of things concerning Haydn are pretty recent. Haydn's Cello Concertos where found in the 1960's for example, hardly a decade before I was born.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on June 24, 2020, 10:43:09 AM

Listening to Symphony #44 "Mourning" (Dorati) and loving it! This is definitely the right kind of Haydn for me. I do like Haydn in minor keys... 0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 24, 2020, 11:12:24 AM

Poju, you mentioned Gerlach earlier, so I know you know who she is. If you look again at the first sction from that link I sent you, you will see headings like this:

New Chronology HRL Hob. I #

Hoboken didn't actually make an attempt to research a proper chronology, he took his numbers from a list compiled back for the centennial of Haydn's death (1909) by the Secretary of the Vienna Society of the Friends of Music, a fellow named Eusebius Mandyczewski (in 1907). Mandyczewski wrote a great list, he actually had everything right except for what are now called Symphony A & B, which he only knew as string quartets. However, the chronology is completely wrong. Hob. # 1-10 are really 1, 37, 18, 2, 4, 27, 10, 20, 17 & 19. So he got #1 right, but only because Haydn told Griesinger that it is WAS #1.

The HRL numbers are devised by Landon, when he wrote his monumental book 'Symphonies of Joseph Haydn'. As you will see, they differ considerably from the Hoboken numbers, but are not far from the New Chronology numbers.

Which brings us to Gerlach. She didn't mess around, she did complete analyses of the works, combined with the most thorough research, and came up with the list that I call 'New Chronology'. Virtually all Haydn scholars accept this list as being ~95% accurate, so if you want to actually call the symphonies out in order, that is the one to use. If you want to call them by the name everyone else does, use Hoboken. It's sort of like the Kochel Catalog for Mozart; everyone knows it's wrong, but no one wants to switch over to the far more accurate Neue Mozart Ausgabe (NMA). It's problematic. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on June 24, 2020, 12:24:21 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 24, 2020, 11:12:24 AM
Poju, you mentioned Gerlach earlier, so I know you know who she is. If you look again at the first sction from that link I sent you, you will see headings like this:

New Chronology HRL Hob. I #

Hoboken didn't actually make an attempt to research a proper chronology, he took his numbers from a list compiled back for the centennial of Haydn's death (1909) by the Secretary of the Vienna Society of the Friends of Music, a fellow named Eusebius Mandyczewski (in 1907). Mandyczewski wrote a great list, he actually had everything right except for what are now called Symphony A & B, which he only knew as string quartets. However, the chronology is completely wrong. Hob. # 1-10 are really 1, 37, 18, 2, 4, 27, 10, 20, 17 & 19. So he got #1 right, but only because Haydn told Griesinger that it is WAS #1.

The HRL numbers are devised by Landon, when he wrote his monumental book 'Symphonies of Joseph Haydn'. As you will see, they differ considerably from the Hoboken numbers, but are not far from the New Chronology numbers.

Which brings us to Gerlach. She didn't mess around, she did complete analyses of the works, combined with the most thorough research, and came up with the list that I call 'New Chronology'. Virtually all Haydn scholars accept this list as being ~95% accurate, so if you want to actually call the symphonies out in order, that is the one to use. If you want to call them by the name everyone else does, use Hoboken. It's sort of like the Kochel Catalog for Mozart; everyone knows it's wrong, but no one wants to switch over to the far more accurate Neue Mozart Ausgabe (NMA). It's problematic. :-\

8)

Sorry, I don't believe I have ever mentioned Gerlach, but I'm getting much better into how this Haydn business goes. I never put much effort into understanding the chronology of Haydn's works, but now that I am getting excited about the ~1772 stuff I am motivated. 0:)

I copied the html code of "Chronology of the Symphonies: 1767 - 1774" from your site and removed most of the code so that only the Introduction text and table of the Symphonies remain (see screen capture below). Now I can make markups of my own while exploring these works. BTW Gurn, as great as your site is, it could be improved by some "clean up". For exampe the order of columns in the "Chronology of the Symphonies" pages differ from each other. Sometimes Hoboken # is first, sometimes New Chronology. This may confuse people. Another thing is the basic "navigation" of the pages: The links on right could be grouped so that all links to "Chronology of the Symphonies" are grouped for example. Now it's a bit "where is part 3 link?"

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 24, 2020, 01:34:42 PM

Quote from: 71 dB on June 24, 2020, 12:24:21 PM
Sorry, I don't believe I have ever mentioned Gerlach, but I'm getting much better into how this Haydn business goes. I never put much effort into understanding the chronology of Haydn's works, but now that I am getting excited about the ~1772 stuff I am motivated. 0:)

I copied the html code of "Chronology of the Symphonies: 1767 - 1774" from your site and removed most of the code so that only the Introduction text and table of the Symphonies remain (see screen capture below). Now I can make markups of my own while exploring these works. BTW Gurn, as great as your site is, it could be improved by some "clean up". For exampe the order of columns in the "Chronology of the Symphonies" pages differ from each other. Sometimes Hoboken # is first, sometimes New Chronology. This may confuse people. Another thing is the basic "navigation" of the pages: The links on right could be grouped so that all links to "Chronology of the Symphonies" are grouped for example. Now it's a bit "where is part 3 link?"

Must have been someone else talking about the liner note booklet of a keyboard sonatas CD. No matter, suffice to say she is an eminent musicologist who knows more about Haydn than most. Sadly, her books have never been translated from German, and even at that, they are rare and expensive. Fortunately, the results have been condensed and quoted elsewhere...

Yes, I wrote all of those sidebar pages over a space of 5 or 6 years, and sadly didn't use a template to insure they matched up. The order they are listed on the side is the default order they were written; if I dig enough into the code, I can find how to change that up. Not a bad idea, really. :)

If you read any of my essays from that period, you will see that I was pretty excited about that music too! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 24, 2020, 02:11:11 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on June 24, 2020, 08:38:32 AM
There isn't a problem in practice unless you obsessively decide to make it one. The practical function of numberings in music is closer to phone numbers (i.e. a unique and rigid mapping of the set of pieces to a certain set of numbers) than to calculations.
No sane person would obsess about differences in order of composition and publication in Beethoven's first two piano concertos or the quartets op.131 and 132 and so on. And it's similar with Haydn symphonies. Problems begin when one needs to consult catalogues and concordances because different numbering systems can make it difficult to identify a pieces. No such problems exist right now with Haydn symphonies because everyone sticks to the old numbering (pre-dating Hoboken, it was first done by Eusebius Mandyczewski). There are a few numbers that are misleading (e.g. #40 and #72 being much earlier than one would think) but most give a pretty close indication to their composition date (if it is known sufficiently precisely at all). There are also differences between order of composition and publication or first performance that are impossible to solve except by convention. So why not avoid confusing people with new numberings and simply stick to the conventional ones.

You spent most of that denying a problem and then in the middle of it decided to agree that some of the numbers are misleading.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on June 24, 2020, 02:24:49 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 24, 2020, 01:34:42 PM
Must have been someone else talking about the liner note booklet of a keyboard sonatas CD. No matter, suffice to say she is an eminent musicologist who knows more about Haydn than most. Sadly, her books have never been translated from German, and even at that, they are rare and expensive. Fortunately, the results have been condensed and quoted elsewhere...

Yes, I wrote all of those sidebar pages over a space of 5 or 6 years, and sadly didn't use a template to insure they matched up. The order they are listed on the side is the default order they were written; if I dig enough into the code, I can find how to change that up. Not a bad idea, really. :)

If you read any of my essays from that period, you will see that I was pretty excited about that music too! :)

8)

Yeah the order of the links is as correct as Hoboken numbering is chronological! ;D anyway, here's the "cleaned up" code for the listing on the right so you can just copy and paste it into your html-file to replace the old code (take a backup copy beforehand of the old one just in case something goes wrong). As for your essays I haven't been reading them yet, but I will study your page more. ;)

Code Select

	<li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/welcome-to-haydn-seek.html">Welcome to Haydn Seek</a></li>
				
				<li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/sunrise-over-hoboken.html">Sunrise over Hoboken...</a></li>
				
				<li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/that-chronology-thing.html">That Chronology Thing</a></li>
				
				<li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/chronology-of-the-symphonies-part-1-the-morzin-symphonies.html">Chronology of the Symphonies Part 1 - The Morzin Symphonies</a></li>

				<li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/chronology-of-the-symphonies-part-2-the-early-esterházy-symphonies-of-.html">Chronology of the Symphonies Part 2 - The Early Esterházy Symphonies</a></li>

				<li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/chronology-of-the-symphonies-part-3-1767-1774.html">Chronology of the Symphonies part 3 - 1767 - 1774</a></li>

				<li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/the-chronology-of-the-symphonies-part-4-1775-1784-.html">The Chronology of the Symphonies part 4 - 1775 - 1784 </a></li>

				<li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/chronology-of-the-symphonies-part-5-1782-1789.html">Chronology of the Symphonies part 5 - 1782 - 1789</a></li>

				<li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/the-chronology-of-the-symphonies-part-6-1791-1795.html">The Chronology of the Symphonies part 6 - 1791 - 1795</a></li>
				
				<li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/chronologies-sorting-out-the-keyboard-music-you-wish.html">Chronologies; Sorting out the Keyboard Music – You wish!</a></li>
							
				<li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/building-a-library.html">Building a Library part 1</a></li>
				
				<li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/building-a-library-part-2-anthologies.html">Building a Library part 2 - Anthologies</a></li>

                                <li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/building_your_library_part_3.html">Building a Library part 3 – More anthologies</a></li>

				<li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/building-a-library-part-4.html">Building a Library part 4 - Haydn's visits to England</a></li>
				
				<li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/musicbydecadepart11750s.html">Haydn's Music by Decade - Part 1 the 1750's</a></li>
				
				<li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/musicbydecadepart2the1760s.html">Haydn's Music by Decade - Part 2 the 1760's</a></li>
						
				<li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/haydns-music-by-decade-part-3-the-1770s.html">Haydn's Music by Decade - Part 3 the 1770's</a></li>
				
				<li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/haydns_music_by_decade_pt_4_1780s.html">Haydn's Music by Decade - Part 4 the 1780's </a></li>

				<li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/haydns-music-by-decade-the-1790s-part-1.html">Haydn's Music by Decade - The 1790's - part 1</a></li>
				
				<li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/haydns-music-by-decade-the-1790s-part-2.html">Haydn's Music by Decade - The 1790's - part 2</a></li>
								
				<li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/100-scottish-national-airs-for-william-napier-part-1-1792.html">100 Scottish National Airs for William Napier - part 1 - 1792</a></li>
				
				<li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/1795-50-scottish-songs-for-william-napier.html">50 Scottish National Airs for William Napier - part 2 - 1795</a></li>

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 24, 2020, 02:52:11 PM

Quote from: 71 dB on June 24, 2020, 02:24:49 PM

Yeah the order of the links is as correct as Hoboken numbering is chronological! ;D anyway, here's the "cleaned up" code for the listing on the right so you can just copy and paste it into your html-file to replace the old code (take a backup copy beforehand of the old one just in case something goes wrong). As for your essays I haven't been reading them yet, but I will study your page more. ;)

Code Select Expand
<li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/welcome-to-haydn-seek.html">Welcome to Haydn Seek</a></li> <li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/sunrise-over-hoboken.html">Sunrise over Hoboken...</a></li> <li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/that-chronology-thing.html">That Chronology Thing</a></li> <li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/chronology-of-the-symphonies-part-1-the-morzin-symphonies.html">Chronology of the Symphonies Part 1 - The Morzin Symphonies</a></li> <li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/chronology-of-the-symphonies-part-2-the-early-esterházy-symphonies-of-.html">Chronology of the Symphonies Part 2 - The Early Esterházy Symphonies</a></li> <li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/chronology-of-the-symphonies-part-3-1767-1774.html">Chronology of the Symphonies part 3 - 1767 - 1774</a></li> <li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/the-chronology-of-the-symphonies-part-4-1775-1784-.html">The Chronology of the Symphonies part 4 - 1775 - 1784 </a></li> <li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/chronology-of-the-symphonies-part-5-1782-1789.html">Chronology of the Symphonies part 5 - 1782 - 1789</a></li> <li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/the-chronology-of-the-symphonies-part-6-1791-1795.html">The Chronology of the Symphonies part 6 - 1791 - 1795</a></li> <li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/chronologies-sorting-out-the-keyboard-music-you-wish.html">Chronologies; Sorting out the Keyboard Music – You wish!</a></li> <li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/building-a-library.html">Building a Library part 1</a></li> <li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/building-a-library-part-2-anthologies.html">Building a Library part 2 - Anthologies</a></li> <li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/building_your_library_part_3.html">Building a Library part 3 – More anthologies</a></li> <li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/building-a-library-part-4.html">Building a Library part 4 - Haydn's visits to England</a></li> <li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/musicbydecadepart11750s.html">Haydn's Music by Decade - Part 1 the 1750's</a></li> <li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/musicbydecadepart2the1760s.html">Haydn's Music by Decade - Part 2 the 1760's</a></li> <li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/haydns-music-by-decade-part-3-the-1770s.html">Haydn's Music by Decade - Part 3 the 1770's</a></li> <li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/haydns_music_by_decade_pt_4_1780s.html">Haydn's Music by Decade - Part 4 the 1780's </a></li> <li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/haydns-music-by-decade-the-1790s-part-1.html">Haydn's Music by Decade - The 1790's - part 1</a></li> <li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/haydns-music-by-decade-the-1790s-part-2.html">Haydn's Music by Decade - The 1790's - part 2</a></li> <li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/100-scottish-national-airs-for-william-napier-part-1-1792.html">100 Scottish National Airs for William Napier - part 1 - 1792</a></li> <li class="module-list-item"><a href="https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/1795-50-scottish-songs-for-william-napier.html">50 Scottish National Airs for William Napier - part 2 - 1795</a></li>

Cool, thanks! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 24, 2020, 03:07:59 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 24, 2020, 02:52:11 PM
Cool, thanks! :)

8)

You would have thought with all that coding done beforehand it would have been a snap, but no, not the case. The blog site software only allows me to choose a page listing module, and choose to arrange it by either title or creation date. I went for title this time because I was fairly consistent in titling the pages, and it does look better, however, it isn't what I would have chosen to do. Going with Typepad has limited what I can do to what IT can do, and at this point, rolling 240 essays and pages over to Wordpress or one of the others would be prohibitively time consuming (all you can do is roll over text, no formatting, no pictures, no tables &c.). Still, playing around with it to improve the presentation is worthwhile, and I still have about 20 essays to write. My next blog I will do differently.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 25, 2020, 12:02:29 AM

Madiel, you are playing dumb and I am not going to play along. I realize that there are some people with obsessive traits that I might not be able to understand. I never denied that some numberings (or most, actually) are "wrong" if one tries to read off an exact chronology. But I still deny that this is a problem for the musical practice. (Clearing up chronologies might be an interesting task for some musicologistq although I'd suspect that in many cases it is not a very interesting and hardly a worthwhile research goal).
For me as a listener it is far more annoying to have to consult catalogues and concordances if I want to know which Scarlatti sonatas are on an older disc that has only Longo-Numbers, not Kirkpatrick. Or double check Haydn's Trios and Piano sonatas because of non-Hoboken numberings that are sometimes used. If Haydn's symphonies would be re-numbered according to Huss we would have two numbers all the time, or in practice would still use Hoboken anyway, or most likely and worst, several systems would be used and there would be a lot of confusion.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on June 25, 2020, 02:37:08 AM

Quote from: George on June 23, 2020, 11:13:36 AM
Ditto.

Maybe he'll start doing youtube reviews like Hurwitz. That'd be cool.

I could ask him. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 25, 2020, 03:13:31 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on June 25, 2020, 12:02:29 AM
Madiel, you are playing dumb and I am not going to play along.

I am not playing dumb. You're just being a real jerk.

If you don't think there's any significance to Haydn's last 12 symphonies being the ones numbered from 92-104, representing two sets of 6 from each of his 2 London visits, then you're going against pretty well all of the musical profession as well as every damn composer who numbered their works, every film series where film number 2 followed film number 1, and in fact pretty well every person on the planet who comprehends that numbers are SEQUENCES. Did you not learn how to count in order as a child? It's a basic skill, and you're trying to tell me it doesn't matter that Symphony 72 was written way, way before Symphony 71... even though you managed to faintly acknowledge this was misleading.

You're basically saying that it's perfectly fine that people have to learn random facts like when symphonies 32, 37 and 72 were written rather than having a numbering system meet the standard expectations they've had since childhood of inherently providing sequence information. You don't see a problem in a person who wants to know what other works Haydn wrote around symphony 44, which they really like, not being able to assume that 40-43 and 45-48 are valid answers.

Next you'll be telling me that you'd be fine with a dictionary that didn't have the words in alphabetical order. They didn't used to have alphabetical order once upon a time, you know. Encyclopaedias would organise material on theological lines.

Maybe you live for the excitement of not knowing whether or not you're next in the queue.

It's not "playing dumb" to point out that while wilfully and determinedly arguing against me, you eventually had to acknowledge my basic point. If a numbering system is misleading as to order, then there's no point to using a numbering system! Use something that doesn't imply sequence!

Meanwhile you seem perfectly happy, while complaining that people shouldn't revise numbering systems or devise new ones, to use Hoboken instead of opus numbers!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 25, 2020, 03:27:04 AM

Might I also add that I never presented this as being somehow one of the world's great problems. All I said was that it is a problem, after you said there was no problem at all.

It's the claiming that we couldn't do better that I find absurd, not least because people have been revising and improving numbering systems for composers for a century or more, and nearly all systems attempt to be chronological. Because, you know, traditionally numbers come in a certain order!

PS I keep finding my compact discs start with track 1. How peculiar.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on June 25, 2020, 05:38:11 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 25, 2020, 02:37:08 AM
I could ask him. 8)

Do it! I was (and am) serious by the way.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: mc ukrneal on June 25, 2020, 06:17:00 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 25, 2020, 02:37:08 AM
I could ask him. 8)

It would be awesome if he said yes. I hope he'll take your calls! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on June 25, 2020, 11:31:02 AM

Well, instead of numbering problems I try to concentrate on the music. I listened to Symphony #49 (Dorati) and liked it. So far so good...
...next seems to be #26 which is also in minor key. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 25, 2020, 01:14:52 PM

Quote from: 71 dB on June 25, 2020, 11:31:02 AM
Well, instead of numbering problems I try to concentrate on the music.

The right priority. Happy listening!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 25, 2020, 01:25:02 PM

Quote from: Madiel on June 25, 2020, 03:13:31 AM
I am not playing dumb. You're just being a real jerk.

If you don't think there's any significance to Haydn's last 12 symphonies being the ones numbered from 92-104, representing two sets of 6 from each of his 2 London visits, then you're going against pretty well all of the musical profession as well as every damn composer who numbered their works, every film series where film number 2 followed film number 1, and in fact pretty well every person on the planet who comprehends that numbers are SEQUENCES. Did you not learn how to count in order as a child? It's a basic skill, and you're trying to tell me it doesn't matter that Symphony 72 was written way, way before Symphony 71... even though you managed to faintly acknowledge this was misleading.

You're basically saying that it's perfectly fine that people have to learn random facts like when symphonies 32, 37 and 72 were written rather than having a numbering system meet the standard expectations they've had since childhood of inherently providing sequence information. You don't see a problem in a person who wants to know what other works Haydn wrote around symphony 44, which they really like, not being able to assume that 40-43 and 45-48 are valid answers.

Next you'll be telling me that you'd be fine with a dictionary that didn't have the words in alphabetical order. They didn't used to have alphabetical order once upon a time, you know. Encyclopaedias would organise material on theological lines.

Maybe you live for the excitement of not knowing whether or not you're next in the queue.

It's not "playing dumb" to point out that while wilfully and determinedly arguing against me, you eventually had to acknowledge my basic point. If a numbering system is misleading as to order, then there's no point to using a numbering system! Use something that doesn't imply sequence!

Meanwhile you seem perfectly happy, while complaining that people shouldn't revise numbering systems or devise new ones, to use Hoboken instead of opus numbers!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: aukhawk on June 25, 2020, 11:26:03 PM

Quote from: 71 dB on June 24, 2020, 10:43:09 AM
Listening to Symphony #44 "Mourning" (Dorati) and loving it! This is definitely the right kind of Haydn for me. I do like Haydn in minor keys... 0:)

Me too. Unfortunately for us he only wrote a rather small proportion of his music in minor. A product of his time of course - music was supposed to be uplisting and aspirational, just like the general conversation and philosophy of the day. It is practically part of the definition of "what is a symphony?" that it should end on a high - and that is part of 'Papa' Haydn's legacy.

But that is one reason why I like the Op.20 as a set - it is the only one of Haydn's sets that includes two minor-key quartets - all the rest have only one.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 26, 2020, 12:43:02 AM

Quote from: Madiel on June 25, 2020, 03:13:31 AM
If you don't think there's any significance to Haydn's last 12 symphonies being the ones numbered from 92-104, representing two sets of 6 from each of his 2 London visits, then you're going against pretty well all of the musical profession as well as every damn composer who numbered their works, every film series where film number 2 followed film number 1, and in fact pretty well every person on the planet who comprehends that numbers are SEQUENCES. Did you not learn how to count in order as a child? It's a basic skill, and you're trying to tell me it doesn't matter that Symphony 72 was written way, way before Symphony 71... even though you managed to faintly acknowledge this was misleading.

You're basically saying that it's perfectly fine that people have to learn random facts like when symphonies 32, 37 and 72 were written rather than having a numbering system meet the standard expectations they've had since childhood of inherently providing sequence information. You don't see a problem in a person who wants to know what other works Haydn wrote around symphony 44, which they really like, not being able to assume that 40-43 and 45-48 are valid answers.

You keep totally ignoring my point. I didn't write or imply at all what you try to put in my mouth. (What you write about the two London sets is clearly reflected in the current numbering, the main wrong thing is that the Concertante is put at the very end.) I don't think people should learn such random facts. In a nutshell, I think they should rather look up such random facts like when a piece was probably written if they are interested in this than having to bother all the time with two or three alternative and periodically amended and revised numberings. Furthermore in your example the assumption is close anough for six out of seven pieces because all but #40 were in fact written temporally close to #44.
Put very simply: For me the errors in the traditional numbering are a not a problem, but alternative numberings would be (or actually are in the cases they already exist). Of the two objectives of numbering I think that the unique identification of a piece is more important than that a chronology is correctly shown. Because the latter is often difficult to assess, object to revision and in some cases not uniquely resolvable. I'd rather look up such stuff than be frequently in doubt which piece one is talking about. With Huss' re-numbering 92 becomes 94, they are both in G major and very popular, so one would always have to give the older number or the nickname to make sure which one is played or talked about (similar with 101 than becomes 104 and I am not searching for more examples).
In most later music we have the convention that we number by publication order, not by composition order, so in a case like Beethoven's hardly anybody is bothered in the least by piano sonatas 19&20 having such high numbers because of their late printing. There will always be things one has to look up if one wants to know because such information is not easily represented by a simple number.

Quote
Meanwhile you seem perfectly happy, while complaining that people shouldn't revise numbering systems or devise new ones, to use Hoboken instead of opus numbers!

No, for string quartets one should use Opus numbers, because Hoboken is messed up (e.g counting op.3 which is not by Haydn and counting op.51 as 7 pieces, although it is either one piece or 9). In my very first reply wrt numbering I wrote that it is a problem for sonatas and trios because there are different common numberings. The practical problems concern identification and potential confusion, chronology can be looked up anyway. There will always be borderline cases because composers and publishers changed orders for publication etc. Beethoven put his op.18 in a particular order for publication, so revising this according to probable order of composition would basically hide this fact. Nobody would do this.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 26, 2020, 12:55:47 AM

Quote from: aukhawk on June 25, 2020, 11:26:03 PM
Me too. Unfortunately for us he only wrote a rather small proportion of his music in minor. A product of his time of course - music was supposed to be uplisting and aspirational, just like the general conversation and philosophy of the day. It is practically part of the definition of "what is a symphony?" that it should end on a high - and that is part of 'Papa' Haydn's legacy.

It seems that other composers of his time wrote even less in the minor. Mozart has 2 of 40-50 symphonies whereas Haydn has about 10 of 104. IIRC Michael Haydn has none in the minor among 40+ symphonies. In the high baroque one would usually have about half of a collection of 6 or 12 pieces in the minor, in classicism about one or two.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 26, 2020, 12:59:44 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on June 26, 2020, 12:43:02 AM
You keep totally ignoring my point.

Yes, well maybe I tend to do that when people accuse me of "playing dumb" while ignoring MY point. ::)

Your point consists pretty much entirely of explaining why you think I'm wrong to say a more consistent numbering system would be preferable. In the process, you've repeatedly said that because YOU don't give a shit about such things, anyone who does give a shit about things is simply wrong. It's not a problem FOR YOU, so no-one else can even say the smallest thing about it being a problem.

I never said a word against the benefits of each work having a unique number, by the way, which is why I ignored all your ranting about how valuable that was. I never said otherwise, you jerk. I ignored your supposed "point" because I'd never argued against it in the first place.

All you had to do in the first place was acknowledge that yes, sometimes a symphony number is misleading as to when Haydn wrote it and consequently the style of the work. That was all. Instead you had to belittle musicologists and 'obsessive' people.

By the way, I actually helped write Australia's telephone numbering system, so your idea that telephone numbers are ONLY about unique mapping and don't have any other kind of structure? Laughably wrong.

We're done here.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DaveF on June 26, 2020, 01:02:01 AM

Regarding the numbering of the symphonies, I solve the problem by having my complete set (Fischer) ordered by date on iTunes - dates taken from Gurn's website, of course. And although it's not relevant to this thread, who on earth thought BWV numbers were a good idea?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 26, 2020, 02:31:10 AM

Quote from: DaveF on June 26, 2020, 01:02:01 AM
Regarding the numbering of the symphonies, I solve the problem by having my complete set (Fischer) ordered by date on iTunes - dates taken from Gurn's website, of course.

Seems eminently sensible. For symphonies 1-75 plus 'A' and 'B' I have them in the Hogwood box, where the symphonies are largely chronological (originally volumes of 3 discs, with each volume a chronological group but the individual symphonies in number order within the volume). Of course this means that when I'm looking at a list of the symphonies in number order, I need a note reminding me what CD I'll find each one on...

Quote
And although it's not relevant to this thread, who on earth thought BWV numbers were a good idea?

Indeed.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Biffo on June 26, 2020, 03:33:53 AM

Quote from: DaveF on June 26, 2020, 01:02:01 AM
Regarding the numbering of the symphonies, I solve the problem by having my complete set (Fischer) ordered by date on iTunes - dates taken from Gurn's website, of course. And although it's not relevant to this thread, who on earth thought BWV numbers were a good idea?

BWV numbers are an excellent idea. Bach has a vast output and each one has a unique BWV number and that is all I need.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 26, 2020, 04:16:08 AM

Quote from: Biffo on June 26, 2020, 03:33:53 AM
BWV numbers are an excellent idea. Bach has a vast output and each one has a unique BWV number and that is all I need.

I can only assume you have zero interest in following Bach's cantatas through a liturgical year. If you did want to do that, you would need something else.

Not done it myself, but I'm given to understand quite a lot of people like doing that. Not least because of the evidence that Bach himself cared about it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Biffo on June 26, 2020, 05:10:10 AM

Quote from: Madiel on June 26, 2020, 04:16:08 AM
I can only assume you have zero interest in following Bach's cantatas through a liturgical year. If you did want to do that, you would need something else.

Not done it myself, but I'm given to understand quite a lot of people like doing that. Not least because of the evidence that Bach himself cared about it.

Your assumption is incorrect. I have Richter's recordings - 5 vols covering (almost) a complete liturgical year and I have listened to them all, in order, twice. I have also dipped into the set for individual cantatas numerous times. I have various other cantata recordings - Gardiner, Herreweghe and others. The BWV numbers are handy for finding information about specific works or ordering online.

Bach wrote two cycles of cantatas in Leipzig plus others earlier in Weimar and a few more in Leipzig several years after the two cycles. Giving them a unique number or identifier based on their place in the liturgical year would be tricky or possibly not very helpful.

The cantatas are an important part of Bach's output but by no means all of it, to say the least. A numbering system for the complete works is very useful indeed.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 26, 2020, 05:52:05 AM

Quote from: Biffo on June 26, 2020, 05:10:10 AM
Your assumption is incorrect.

Then your statement was incorrect. The BWV system will not enable you to follow one of Bach's cycles. It is not all you need. You need someone, whether you or someone else, to have figured out how to convert the jumbled sequence into a liturgical one.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Biffo on June 26, 2020, 06:04:47 AM

Quote from: Madiel on June 26, 2020, 05:52:05 AM
Then your statement was incorrect. The BWV system will not enable you to follow one of Bach's cycles. It is not all you need. You need someone, whether you or someone else, to have figured out how to convert the jumbled sequence into a liturgical one.

I never said it did.

Richter and Gardiner are organised according to the liturgical year. The Harnoncourt and Leonhardt recordings are organised by BWV number. No idea how other cycles are ordered.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 26, 2020, 06:09:12 AM

You said it was all you need. You've just disproved that. There is an obvious deficiency in the BWV ordering of the cantatas. I can't help it if you cannot follow the logic of your own statements. Go back and read. Good night.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Biffo on June 26, 2020, 06:38:01 AM

Quote from: Madiel on June 26, 2020, 06:09:12 AM
You said it was all you need. You've just disproved that. There is an obvious deficiency in the BWV ordering of the cantatas. I can't help it if you cannot follow the logic of your own statements. Go back and read. Good night.

No I didn't, you go back and read.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 26, 2020, 02:20:31 PM

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on June 26, 2020, 11:28:06 PM

What's this discussion really about?

A numbering system -- any numbering system -- serves its purpose in that it identifies a work. It may do _more_ than that (i.e. suggest chronology), but, as we see, not necessarily.

With that identification, we can then go and look up the information we need. That's what indices are for. There's no numbering system that could easily or satisfyingly catalog the Bach cantatas, for example, indicate chronology and liturgical order. Much less be in keeping with the cataloging of the rest of Bach's work.

Let's say we kept the system of BWV numbers, roughly, blocking off 1-224 for Cantatas. In liturgical order and within any given Sunday in chronological order: Would we then assign No.1 to Nun komm, der Heiden Heiland (BWV 61), No.2 to Nun komm, der Heiden Heiland (BWV 62), No.3 to Schwingt freudig euch empor (BWV 36), No.4 to Wachet! betet! betet! wachet! (BWV 70a), No.4a to Ärgre dich, o Seele, nicht, BWV (186a), No.5 to Bereitet die Wege, bereitet die Bahn (BWV 132)?

I'm only five (six) pieces in, and already the system doesn't actually tell me anything about the liturgical year (except that I'm probably still stuck somewhere before Christmas), because I couldn't possibly know what Sunday I'm on, what with more than one (and sometimes none) cantatas composed for any given Sunday. Never mind 50 BWV numbers into that list. I'd have to look it up, just as much.

Should we number the cycles -- to the extent they are pure cycles - I/1 through I/27, then II/1-II/27 (Advent 1 through Trinity 27; except the cycles don't have 27 cantatas)? And the cantatas outside a complete cycle... get what assignment? Whichever way we turn, a numbering system alone can't solve our problems. It could reasonably give us minimally more information (chronology, presumably, would make the most sense, although that, of course, is difficult, too, when the dates on some works aren't clear)... but it can't replace having to know or read up about works, if we want to look for a specific one or know more about its whereabouts. (Oh, an of course the numbers do also tell us the category of work in Bach, which isn't actually that small an achievement. What's op.75 in Beethoven, say? [Without looking it up.]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 27, 2020, 12:23:54 AM

Oh look, it's not difficult. A system that merely provides an identifying number provides you with less information than a system provides you with an identifying number and a sequence of numbers that corresponds to something useful.

I don't know why this is so hard to understand. You are all SURROUNDED by meaningful sequences all of the time. I could provide you with a list of chemical elements in alphabetical order, or I could provide you with a list of chemical elements in order of atomic number, or I could provide you with a list of chemical elements that is completely random with no attempt to convey anything other than that the list is complete. I could provide you with a list of Pixar films in the order that they were made, or in alphabetical order, or in order of Metacritic score, or arranged by how popular they were... or I could just spit them at you in completely random order.

Every time that someone claims the sole purpose of a music cataloguing system is to provide a unique ID number, I honestly wonder whether that person has paid the SLIGHTEST attention to all the attempts that those 'obsessive' musicologists have made to actually provide you with a system that is more useful than that, or to the form of practically any list presented anywhere. The world is full of ORGANISED lists because they're more useful than disorganised ones.

The Hoboken list attempts to present things in order within each category of composition. To deny this would be ludicrous. The order corresponds to chronology far more than it would by random chance. The Hoboken lists are sometimes not in order. Neither of these statements should be controversial, and yet some of you are fighting tooth and nail to argue that the sole purpose of all the hard work that musicologists do is to provide you with a goddamn ID number so that you don't have to bother having names for pieces.

As for BWV, the order of the cantatas reflects the order that they were published in the 19th century. Are we seriously arguing that is the most useful order to choose? Seriously? Or are people going to insist on arguing that so long as the numbers are unique, the order of those numbers couldn't possibly provide useful information, flying in the face of almost every list you encounter throughout your life?

Am I dealing with a bunch of people who have, never ever had to present information to anyone else and thus have never had to think about how to organise the information? Or do you all just give really horrible disorganised presentations and someone else has to clean up afterwards?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: aukhawk on June 27, 2020, 12:39:34 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 26, 2020, 11:28:06 PM
I'm only five (six) pieces in, and already the system doesn't actually tell me anything about the liturgical year (except that I'm probably still stuck somewhere before Christmas), because I couldn't possibly know what Sunday I'm on, what with more than one (and sometimes none) cantatas composed for any given Sunday. Never mind 50 BWV numbers into that list. I'd have to look it up, just as much.

And the liturgical year was complicated (not least for Bach himself, who had to grapple with this as a matter of practicality) by the movement of the Easter date by several weeks to and fro. Easter in turn determines several other significant dates - Ash Wednesday, Lent, Ascencion Day etc. Cantatas had to be added or excised from the cycle to pad around this time.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 27, 2020, 12:41:33 AM

If people have a problem with trying to present information in an organised way and think it's unnecessary and obsessive, what the devil do you think of all the years that Gurn has spent doing just that?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: aukhawk on June 27, 2020, 12:43:36 AM

If only his blog had a consistent page-numbering system :laugh: :laugh:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 27, 2020, 01:20:14 AM

I was basically only advocating what has been done in the last ca. 100 years in many cases. Hoboken in the 1930s/40s *knew* that Mandyczewkis numbering of the symphonies was faulty but apparently it had been already back then sufficiently established that Hoboken did not change it. Maybe it would have been early enough to do so and establish a better numbering. But this like many other cases shows that very often the smart thing to do is *to stick with an imperfect but established numbering and put the corrections in the footnotes and appendices.* This is also the common practice with Koechel and Deutschverzeichnis. Usually he old numbers are kept and new ones at best added in parentheses because the confusion would be great otherwise. The Schubert great C major is a borderline case. The Deutschnumber is confusing because the piece was probably already written 1825, no 1828 but it remains. The number within the symphonies has been changed twice (7 to 9, now 9 to 8) but many people still use #9 despite their being no #7 (there is the E major fragment there were the rumors of a lost "Gasteiner" symphony and there was a fake but it seems that the Gasteiner never existed or was in fact identical with the Great C major. The confusion is not such a problem because there are only two symphonies in C major and only two symphonies changed numbers, so it is not like it would be with Haydn (or is with Scarlatti L vs. K numbers)

I have used my Haydn book with the Werkzeichnis almost to death (i.e. there are many loose pages) because I so often looked up piano sonatas, trios, divertimenti etc. with their different numbering systems (about two common ones, Hob. and another one). I would be very annoyed if people now adopted Huss for the symphonies and we had to deal with two numberings there as well. I don't know enough about CPE Bach, Vivaldi, Scarlatti but in the last two cases I also spent quite a bit of time looking up concordances and the like. Or Händel's keyboard music with old numberings from Chrysander's "Händel-Gesellschaft", then the "Hallesche Händel-Ausgabe" and finally the systematic HWV. It is often unavoidable but it is a major pain in the ass. Additionally, when scholarship proceeds, numberings etc. are bound to be revised again. In no way am I discouraging such scholarship. But put this in research papers, Kritische Berichte, appendices, footnotes etc. Do not change numbers that have been practical for 100 years or so.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 27, 2020, 01:24:58 AM

So do you use opus numbers for Dvorak? How do you number his symphonies?

Basically the impression I'm getting is that you're fine with revisions so long as they happened before your lifetime.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DaveF on June 27, 2020, 02:21:50 AM

Quote from: DaveF on June 26, 2020, 01:02:01 AM
And although it's not relevant to this thread, who on earth thought BWV numbers were a good idea?

Who on earth even thought that mentioning them was a good idea? :( Seriously, should we start an "Opus numbers and Catalogue numbers" thread, assuming one doesn't exist? For discussion of such matters as Sibelius' habit of promoting works that he was pleased with and demoting those he wasn't, or Britten's careful chronological numbering as opposed to Nielsen's haphazard mess, Berlioz's 2 Opus 1s...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 27, 2020, 02:44:03 AM

I confess this is one time when I would consider moving material from where it was originally posted to be a quite reasonable idea. Though I doubt there's much more to say.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on June 27, 2020, 09:23:42 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on June 27, 2020, 01:20:14 AM
very often the smart thing to do is *to stick with an imperfect but established numbering and put the corrections in the footnotes and appendices.*

...

when scholarship proceeds, numberings etc. are bound to be revised again. In no way am I discouraging such scholarship. But put this in research papers, Kritische Berichte, appendices, footnotes etc. Do not change numbers that have been practical for 100 years or so.

This.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on June 27, 2020, 09:34:48 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 26, 2020, 11:28:06 PM
(Oh, an of course the numbers do also tell us the category of work in Bach, which isn't actually that small an achievement. What's op.75 in Beethoven, say? [Without looking it up.]

In this respect, the Hoboken catalogue is actually the most rational and helpful of them all. Beside, the chronological misfires are few and far between and anyone genuinely interested in the correct chronology can have it at a click's distance. AfaIc, the whole kerfuffle is moot.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2020, 10:05:40 AM

Quote from: aukhawk on June 27, 2020, 12:43:36 AM
If only his blog had a consistent page-numbering system :laugh: :laugh:

Well, since you can't look at any 2 pages at the same time, you would be hard-pressed to get confused by it. :D

Quote from: Jo498 on June 27, 2020, 01:20:14 AM
I was basically only advocating what has been done in the last ca. 100 years in many cases. Hoboken in the 1930s/40s *knew* that Mandyczewkis numbering of the symphonies was faulty but apparently it had been already back then sufficiently established that Hoboken did not change it. Maybe it would have been early enough to do so and establish a better numbering.

I have used my Haydn book with the Werkzeichnis almost to death (i.e. there are many loose pages) because I so often looked up piano sonatas, trios, divertimenti etc. with their different numbering systems (about two common ones, Hob. and another one). I would be very annoyed if people now adopted Huss for the symphonies and we had to deal with two numberings there as well.

Apparently I am out of the loop on the latest news, but I haven't heard of a numbering system proposed by Manfred (I presume) Huss. By far the best available is that compiled by Sonja Gerlach. That is the system used in the Haydn107 (http://www.haydn107.com/Inhaltsseiten/Das-Projekt) website, and which I used in my blog, calling it the 'New Chronology' because when I originally used it, I didn't know who wrote it. If I had a thousand extra dollars and could read German, I would certainly invest in her books, since she gives the complete rationale and evidence for each placement.

But that's not the point. I understand what you are saying, people are going to use the easiest thing for them, even if they know it is wronger than hell. Which is why I put all the Gerlach and Landon numbers in my blog, but during the discussions of the works I used the Hob. numbers, just to make it easier on the reader, even though the concept repelled me. You mentioned that your chronology book is nearly worn out: that shouldn't be necessary. If the works were numbered correctly you wouldn't have to be looking them up all the time. The arguments you make are exactly those which will perpetuate the use of things like Köchel 1. Or cause work of scholarship such as the Biamonti Catalog of Beethoven's Works to disappear. Which is a pity, since it is very near accurate and could be easily updated to full accuracy (for current state of knowledge).

What I see in looking at all these catalogs in general (which I do, it's kind of like my thing) is that once the first edition is complete, everyone wants to believe the work is done and should be chiseled into stone. Which couldn't be more wrong. Actually, a foundation has been built upon which one can base some actual creative thoughts upon the music of that composer. Once accurate chronology has been established, you can see how the music developed upon itself. For example, you can see that Hob 13, 31 & 72 actually all go together because Haydn had 4 horns to play with in that period from 1763 to 1765. How would you know that from the Hoboken numbers??

Quote from: Madiel on June 27, 2020, 02:44:03 AM
I confess this is one time when I would consider moving material from where it was originally posted to be a quite reasonable idea. Though I doubt there's much more to say.

I will prevail upon Que to cut this series of interesting posts out from this thread and join them on to an old thread we have on that topic. He is far better at that sort of thing than I am. I certainly do think it is a topic worth discussing, although it IS Haydn's Haus, and I don't wish to piss him off... ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2020, 10:13:14 AM

Quote from: Florestan on June 27, 2020, 09:34:48 AM
In this respect, the Hoboken catalogue is actually the most rational and helpful of them all. Beside, the chronological misfires are few and far between and anyone genuinely interested in the correct chronology can have it at a click's distance. AfaIc, the whole kerfuffle is moot.

Obviously I disagree with you, probably because I am intimately familiar with the multitude of fuckups in the Hoboken Catalog and you probably aren't. I'm not criticizing you here, just saying what I believe to be true. Every page of Hoboken can be read out and accepted, except for this, that and the other thing. I know, we will all just remember all those exceptions, then it will be perfect. ::) I can't buy that, Andrei... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on June 27, 2020, 10:13:27 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2020, 10:05:40 AM
By far the best available is that compiled by Sonja Gerlach. That is the system used in the Haydn107 (http://=http://www.haydn107.com/Inhaltsseiten/Das-Projekt) website

The link is dead. >:(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2020, 10:19:34 AM

Quote from: Florestan on June 27, 2020, 10:13:27 AM
The link is dead. >:(

Try it now. I made a copy & paste screwup. :'(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on June 27, 2020, 10:22:36 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2020, 10:13:14 AM
Obviously I disagree with you, probably because I am intimately familiar with the multitude of fuckups in the Hoboken Catalog and you probably aren't. I'm not criticizing you here, just saying what I believe to be true. Every page of Hoboken can be read out and accepted, except for this, that and the other thing. I know, we will all just remember all those exceptions, then it will be perfect. ::) I can't buy that, Andrei... :-\

8)

My idea is that it is most rational and helpful to categorize Haydn's works by genre.

Hob:I --- Symphonies
Hob II --- String Quartets
Hob III --- whatever

aso asf.

I have no problem whatsoever with placing chronologically, say, Hob I:63. A mere Google search yields this:

https://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.63_in_C_major,_Hob.I:63_(Haydn,_Joseph) (https://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.63_in_C_major,_Hob.I:63_(Haydn,_Joseph))

and this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._63_(Haydn) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._63_(Haydn))

Are they wrong?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on June 27, 2020, 10:23:45 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2020, 10:19:34 AM
Try it now. I made a copy & paste screwup. :'(

8)

Can you read German? I can't. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2020, 10:29:33 AM

Quote from: Florestan on June 27, 2020, 10:22:36 AM
My idea is that it is most rational and helpful to categorize Haydn's works by genre.

Hob:I --- Symphonies
Hob II --- String Quartets
Hob III --- whatever

aso asf.

I have no problem whatsoever with placing chronologically, say, Hob I:63. A mere Google search yields this:

https://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.63_in_C_major,_Hob.I:63_(Haydn,_Joseph) (https://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.63_in_C_major,_Hob.I:63_(Haydn,_Joseph))

and this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._63_(Haydn) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symphony_No._63_(Haydn))

Are they wrong?

So you are OK with actually looking up everything every time (because you sure as hell aren't going to remember it all) than to know by looking at the title that it is really Symphony #74? That might be OK for you, but is certainly not something I am interested in doing every time I want to do. Just knowing it was written in 1779 and not 1773 is a big deal for me, because I know enough about Haydn to know what he was doing in both of those years, so how 'La Roxelane' fits into his life and oeuvre at the time.

A numbering system is a potential tool. But if it gives you either no information at all or is misleading, then that is a tool you might as well throw away.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2020, 10:31:20 AM

Quote from: Florestan on June 27, 2020, 10:23:45 AM
Can you read German? I can't. ;D

I use Google Chrome, and I have it set to automatically translate German into English. Also, on one of those pages, it gives you a DE/EN option...

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on June 27, 2020, 10:34:51 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2020, 10:29:33 AM
A numbering system is a potential tool. But if it gives you either no information at all or is misleading, then that is a tool you might as well throw away.

Do you seriously and in all earnest mean that the whole Hoboken thing gives you either no information at all or is misleading?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on June 27, 2020, 10:36:52 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2020, 10:29:33 AM
So you are OK with actually looking up everything every time (because you sure as hell aren't going to remember it all) than to know by looking at the title that it is really Symphony #74?

Yes, I am. As Jens pointed out earlier, are you OK with Beethoven's Op. 75? Tell us what it is without actually looking up. Oh, wait, you can't, can you? ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2020, 10:39:29 AM

Quote from: Florestan on June 27, 2020, 10:34:51 AM
Do you seriously and in all earnest mean that the whole Hoboken thing gives you either no information at all or is misleading?

I do seriously mean that much of it is misleading. All I'm saying is that the information which was considered adequate 80 years ago (when no one knew anything different) would do very well by having an update. If that were to happen, then all these 10-20 different systems (for different genres) wouldn't be necessary. They shouldn't be necessary, except that everyone knows that Hoboken is full of shit. So update it and let's move on!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2020, 10:43:18 AM

Quote from: Florestan on June 27, 2020, 10:36:52 AM
Yes, I am. As Jens pointed out earlier, are you OK with Beethoven's Op. 75? Tell us what it is without actually looking up. Oh, wait, you can't, can you? ;D

You asked the wrong person about the 6 Songs, I just listened to them last week. However, my Biamonti List shows me that they are Work #502, so I know already that they are truly well placed at Op 75, they were written in 1809.

That said, let's go back 4 Opus numbers and you can tell me something about Opus 71. It must be from around the same time period... ?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on June 27, 2020, 10:44:50 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2020, 10:39:29 AM
I do seriously mean that much of it is misleading. All I'm saying is that the information which was considered adequate 80 years ago (when no one knew anything different) would do very well by having an update. If that were to happen, then all these 10-20 different systems (for different genres) wouldn't be necessary. They shouldn't be necessary, except that everyone knows that Hoboken is full of shit. So update it and let's move on!

8)

Why, you certainly know a whole lotta things about it --- why don't you go about your own way of cataloguing Haydn's works in a rational and chronological way?

No offense meant, my friend, but it's so easy to talk the talk... :blank:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on June 27, 2020, 10:48:13 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2020, 10:43:18 AM
You asked the wrong person about the 6 Songs, I just listened to them last week. However, my Biamonti List shows me that they are Work #502, so I know already that they are truly well placed at Op 75, they were written in 1809.

That said, let's go back 4 Opus numbers and you can tell me something about Opus 71. It must be from around the same time period... ?

8)

When, pray tell, did I ask you, or anybody else, about "the 6 Songs"? I don't even have no idea whatever what you're talking about. You surely confuse me for someone else. ???

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2020, 10:56:31 AM

Quote from: Florestan on June 27, 2020, 10:44:50 AM
Why, you certainly know a whole lotta things about it --- why don't you go about your own way of cataloguing Haydn's works in a rational and chronological way?

No offense meant, my friend, but it's so easy to talk the talk... :blank:

Well, the people who are actually responsible for doing this stuff (The Haydn Institute, for example) should be keeping Hob. updated. No one knows better than they do how much is wrong with it. But they never do. Instead, they either support or ignore all these other efforts to make accurate catalogs which would not be necessary of someone would take the bull by the horn and get it done. I have no standing in the academic community to undertake a project of that size. I can have comprehensive knowledge and understanding of the problem, but it isn't worth a pinch of salt without connections. I am nearly 70 years old: the likelihood of getting academic standing at this point in my life ranges from slim to none, and Slim just left town...

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2020, 10:59:36 AM

Quote from: Florestan on June 27, 2020, 10:48:13 AM
When, pray tell, did I ask you, or anybody else, about "the 6 Songs"? I don't even have no idea whatever what you're talking about. You surely confuse me for someone else. ???

Quote from: Florestan on June 27, 2020, 10:36:52 AM
Yes, I am. As Jens pointed out earlier, are you OK with Beethoven's Op. 75? Tell us what it is without actually looking up. Oh, wait, you can't, can you? ;D

Beethoven Op 75: 6 Songs dedicated to Princess Caroline Kinsky. 1809.

I think that was you....

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on June 27, 2020, 11:04:30 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2020, 10:56:31 AM
Well, the people who are actually responsible for doing this stuff (The Haydn Institute, for example) should be keeping Hob. updated. No one knows better than they do how much is wrong with it. But they never do. Instead, they either support or ignore all these other efforts to make accurate catalogs which would not be necessary of someone would take the bull by the horn and get it done. I have no standing in the academic community to undertake a project of that size. I can have comprehensive knowledge and understanding of the problem, but it isn't worth a pinch of salt without connections. I am nearly 70 years old: the likelihood of getting academic standing at this point in my life ranges from slim to none, and Slim just left town...

Well, then I guess we all have to put up with the latest revised edition of Hoboken and just shut up.

And now that I think of it, which is more important: to know when Hob:I - 53 was composed, or to listen to Hob:I - 53? I'll take my chance with the latter.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on June 27, 2020, 11:04:57 AM

Listened to Hob. I: 26 from 1768. Dorati. Despite of being in d minor it's not among the best ones I have heard from Haydn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on June 27, 2020, 11:06:45 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2020, 10:59:36 AM
Beethoven Op 75: 6 Songs dedicated to Princess Caroline Kinsky. 1809.

Do you mean to tell us that you knew the work, dedicatee and composition year without looking it up?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2020, 11:08:51 AM

Quote from: Florestan on June 27, 2020, 11:06:45 AM
Do you mean to tell us that you knew the work, dedicatee and composition year without looking it up?

Nope, just the work. I looked up her name and the year for a reason, which was to ask you the question I asked you earlier: What about Op 71?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2020, 11:11:21 AM

Quote from: 71 dB on June 27, 2020, 11:04:57 AM
Listened to Hob. I: 26 from 1768. Dorati. Despite of being in d minor it's not among the best ones I have heard from Haydn.

Well, it does come from 1768, which is a little earlier than your period of interest. And it was written to be played during religious services during Passion Week, so it sorta has that tone to it...

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on June 27, 2020, 11:17:06 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2020, 11:08:51 AM
What about Op 71?

Precisely. What about it, without looking it up?

My whole point is: given the current state of research and technology, complaining that Hoboken or KV or BWV or whatnot is partially faulty when it comes to exact chronology is hairsplitting to the umpteenth degree.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2020, 11:25:09 AM

Quote from: Florestan on June 27, 2020, 11:17:06 AM
Precisely. What about it, without looking it up?

My whole point is: given the current state of research and technology, complaining that Hoboken or KV or BWV or whatnot is partially faulty when it comes to exact chronology is hairsplitting to the umpteenth degree.

Well, you can say that but you're not going to cheat me out of making my point. :D

Biamonti 118 Op 71 - Sextet for Clarinets, Horns & Bassoons in E flat major 1792-94
Biamonti 502 Op 75 - 6 Songs for Princess Caroline Kinsky 1809

So just look for a minute, and tell me whether the opus numbers here are useful or deceptive, and then whether the Bia numbers are useful or deceptive. This is assuming that you aren't 100% ignorant about Beethoven, which I know you aren't. I know it rips your heart out to concede a point, but be honest, please.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2020, 11:28:22 AM

Quote from: Florestan on June 27, 2020, 11:17:06 AM
Precisely. What about it, without looking it up?

The point is, obviously, that without looking it up, I know that Op 71 was written years before Op 75, not just months before. So that is useful. And if I DO look it up, without even leaving the Bia catalog, I can see that it was probably 15 years before, not mere months. That is far more than I know from looking at the opus numbers. And if it isn't important to you, consider that it is important to me, and maybe a few other people...

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on June 27, 2020, 11:36:30 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2020, 11:25:09 AM
Biamonti 118 Op 71 - Sextet for Clarinets, Horns & Bassoons in E flat major 1792-94
Biamonti 502 Op 75 - 6 Songs for Princess Caroline Kinsky 1809

So just look for a minute, and tell me whether the opus numbers here are useful or deceptive,

Okay. Let's play.

Op. 71 --- 1792-94
Op, 75 --- 1809

I'd say the Op numbering is chronological. Feel free to tell me 1794 is not before 1809.

Biamonti 118 is composed in 1792-94. Biamonti 502 is composed in 1809. I'd say that the Biamonti catalogue is chronological. Feel free to tell me that 118 is not before 502.

What's your point? I don't get it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on June 27, 2020, 11:38:53 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2020, 11:28:22 AM
The point is, obviously, that without looking it up, I know that Op 71 was written years before Op 75,

Have I ever claimed otherwise? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2020, 11:49:06 AM

Quote from: Florestan on June 27, 2020, 11:36:30 AM
Okay. Let's play.

Op. 71 --- 1792-94
Op, 75 --- 1809

I'd say the Op numbering is chronological. Feel free to tell me 1794 is not before 1809.

Biamonti 118 is composed in 1792-94. Biamonti 502 is composed in 1809. I'd say that the Biamonti catalogue is chronological. Feel free to tell me that 118 is not before 502.

What's your point? I don't get it.

Ah, OK, you are stinging from having you butt slapped. I can accept that. So you are readily able to disregard things like this:

Bia 41 Op 103 Octet for Oboes, Clarinets, Horns & Bassoons in E flat major 1792 - 1793

Where Op 103 is chronologically after Op 75 (and 71) yet it is certainly earlier than either of them. BTW, The Biamonti Catalogue is in need of updating just like anything else in this line, but is is a hell of a lot more accurate than Grove or Hess, who don't even try, and Opus numbers, which are a joke.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on June 27, 2020, 11:57:30 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2020, 11:49:06 AM
Ah, OK, you are stinging from having you butt slapped. I can accept that. So you are readily able to disregard things like this:

Bia 41 Op 103 Octet for Oboes, Clarinets, Horns & Bassoons in E flat major 1792 - 1793

Where Op 103 is chronologically after Op 75 (and 71) yet it is certainly earlier than either of them. BTW, The Biamonti Catalogue is in need of updating just like anything else in this line, but is is a hell of a lot more accurate than Grove or Hess, who don't even try, and Opus numbers, which are a joke.

8)

Good grief! I was just playing along your game! Just please tell me who on this effing earth, except freaking nerds or God-damned contrarians, identify Beethoven's works by Bia number? Heck, what the hell is the Bia number for Op. 13 and who the hell knows it and refers to it as such?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2020, 12:45:25 PM

Quote from: Florestan on June 27, 2020, 11:57:30 AM
Good grief! I was just playing along your game! Just please tell me who on this effing earth, except freaking nerds or God-damned contrarians, identify Beethoven's works by Bia number? Heck, what the hell is the Bia number for Op. 13 and who the hell knows it and refers to it as such?

184. Me. At least I have it filed away like that. All my Beethoven, Mozart, Haydn & Schubert are filed chronologically. My Vivaldi is filed by RV number, which aren't chronological. Very damned inconvenient, that...

Apparently I am both a nerd AND a contrarian. I can live with that. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on June 27, 2020, 12:54:27 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2020, 12:45:25 PM
184. Me.

Are you seriously going to tell me us that you've just listened to a cracking performance of Bia 184?

Come on, man! It's Op. 13 "Pathetique" and no matter how much you'll twist and turn it around, it'll always be Op. 13 "Pathetique".

Quote
Apparently I am both a nerd AND a contrarian.

You are neither --- you just love to appear as one.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on June 27, 2020, 01:18:38 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2020, 11:11:21 AM
Well, it does come from 1768, which is a little earlier than your period of interest. And it was written to be played during religious services during Passion Week, so it sorta has that tone to it...

8)

Yes, but I am figuring out the exact years of "my period of interest" and how wide that period is. Is it just 1772, or 1771-1773 or 1762-1782 or what? I really like Hob. I: 44 which is from 1770/71 so it looks like the period for me is wider than just 1772. However, 1768 might be "too early", but I need to listen to more. Each period has it's weaker and stronger works... ...I need to establish whether Hob. I: 26 is a weak or strong work for 1768.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on June 27, 2020, 01:46:10 PM

How much longer do people here want to fight over opus numbers? This has been going on for pages now, half of it isn't even about Haydn, but Beethoven etc. Don't we have enough toxic atmosphere in the politics thread? The Hoboken numbers (and other listings) are what they are and we have to live with them or come up with our own "superior" numbers. For me the easiest thing to do is to use the most established numbering system widely in use and translate them into correct chronology (and years) using listings like in the Gurn's pages when necessory. After Hob. I: 26 comes Hob. I: 41 which I just started to listen to. Not hard at all...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2020, 01:59:44 PM

Quote from: Florestan on June 27, 2020, 12:54:27 PM
Are you seriously going to tell me us that you've just listened to a cracking performance of Bia 184?

Come on, man! It's Op. 13 "Pathetique" and no matter how much you'll twist and turn it around, it'll always be Op. 13 "Pathetique".

You are neither --- you just love to appear as one.

Yes, but my interest in it goes a lot deeper than 'Op 13 "Pathetique"'. I don't have Bia memorized by any means, but when I look through the 3,101 FLAC files on my hard drive of Beethoven works, just the fact that its file name is "Bia 184 Op 013 Sonata #8 in c for Fortepiano" it tells me something more about it than just 'Pathetique Sonata' does.

I may not be an actual nerd (not many farmers are, even retired ones), but I am definitely nerdish... :D :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on June 27, 2020, 02:06:25 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2020, 01:59:44 PM
when I look through the 3,101 FLAC files on my hard drive of Beethoven works, just the fact that its file name is "Bia 184 Op 013 Sonata #8 in c for Fortepiano" it tells me something more about it than just 'Pathetique Sonata' does.

I may not be an actual nerd (not many farmers are, even retired ones), but I am definitely nerdish... :D :D
8)

Nerdish....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2020, 02:11:03 PM

Quote from: 71 dB on June 27, 2020, 01:18:38 PM
Yes, but I am figuring out the exact years of "my period of interest" and how wide that period is. Is it just 1772, or 1771-1773 or 1762-1782 or what? I really like Hob. I: 44 which is from 1770/71 so it looks like the period for me is wider than just 1772. However, 1768 might be "too early", but I need to listen to more. Each period has it's weaker and stronger works... ...I need to establish whether Hob. I: 26 is a weak or strong work for 1768.

There is a reason why you will find a fairly noticeable difference in the 1768 works from the 1770 and later ones. It is because during 1768, Haydn began an entire series of lessons where he says he went back to the basics of composition and rethought how he did everything. The first result of this is that he started writing string quartets again, which he did for practice more than anything else. The next 4 years (1769-72) produced Op 9, 17 & 20, each one an improvement on the previous ones. But they also produced what came in later years to be called the Sturm und Drang symphonies, which feature the ones you seem mostly attracted to. That attraction isn't just random chance, it is a conscious effort on Haydn's part to write something different. I can't remember if you printed a list of the ones you were looking to hear, but these are the ones from the heart of that era. FWIW, Hob# 42 is one of MY favorites. :)

Year NC# Key Hob # Name
1770/71   50   e      44   Mourning
1770/71   51   Eb      43   Mercury
1771     52   c      52
1771     53   D      42
1772     54   G      47
1772     55   f#      45   Farewell
1772     56   B      46   Palindrome
1773     57   Bb      51
1773     58   A      64   Tempora Mutantur
1773/4   59   C      50

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on June 27, 2020, 03:04:04 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2020, 02:11:03 PM
There is a reason why you will find a fairly noticeable difference in the 1768 works from the 1770 and later ones. It is because during 1768, Haydn began an entire series of lessons where he says he went back to the basics of composition and rethought how he did everything. The first result of this is that he started writing string quartets again, which he did for practice more than anything else. The next 4 years (1769-72) produced Op 9, 17 & 20, each one an improvement on the previous ones. But they also produced what came in later years to be called the Sturm und Drang symphonies, which feature the ones you seem mostly attracted to. That attraction isn't just random chance, it is a conscious effort on Haydn's part to write something different. I can't remember if you printed a list of the ones you were looking to hear, but these are the ones from the heart of that era. FWIW, Hob# 42 is one of MY favorites. :)

Year NC# Key Hob # Name
1770/71   50   e      44   Mourning
1770/71   51   Eb      43   Mercury
1771     52   c      52
1771     53   D      42
1772     54   G      47
1772     55   f#      45   Farewell
1772     56   B      46   Palindrome
1773     57   Bb      51
1773     58   A      64   Tempora Mutantur
1773/4   59   C      50

8)

My explorations into Haydn has always been "blind", but this is educational, thanks! Yes, based on the Symphonies I have been listening to lately what you say makes sense. I often do my own explorations myself before knowing much of the "circumstances" to have an unbiased take on things and then maybe educate myself about historical facts to see if they "explain" my experiences. I don't want what I read to affect my listening. I don't want to like Hob. I: 42 because YOU like it. I want to discover it myself, evaluate it myself having neutral expectations.

My "list" was a section from your page (Symphonies part 3) consisting of 24 symphonies 1767 - 1774. Your reduced list of 10 Symphonies looks a refined one to meet my taste. Thanks!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 27, 2020, 04:15:02 PM

Quote from: Florestan on June 27, 2020, 11:04:30 AM
And now that I think of it, which is more important: to know when Hob:I - 53 was composed, or to listen to Hob:I - 53? I'll take my chance with the latter.

The point is you shouldn't have to choose between those 2 things. In a well-organised system you could have both.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 27, 2020, 04:26:06 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2020, 10:05:40 AM
What I see in looking at all these catalogs in general (which I do, it's kind of like my thing) is that once the first edition is complete, everyone wants to believe the work is done and should be chiseled into stone. Which couldn't be more wrong. Actually, a foundation has been built upon which one can base some actual creative thoughts upon the music of that composer. Once accurate chronology has been established, you can see how the music developed upon itself. For example, you can see that Hob 13, 31 & 72 actually all go together because Haydn had 4 horns to play with in that period from 1763 to 1765. How would you know that from the Hoboken numbers??

Yes, exactly this. The idea that the first effort, however good it is, must be the only effort makes no sense to me. There are all sorts of fields where we gradually improve and refine our knowledge over time, and I don't see why this shouldn't be one of them. We shouldn't perpetuate errors forevermore just because the errors are "traditional".

And understanding the timing and context of composition is often very interesting because composers don't stand still (any more than the rest of us do). In fact I'm reasonably sure it was Florestan who once expressed interest in the chronological approach I often take to exploring a composer's work. I'm not completely obsessed with getting every piece in exactly the right order, but it's a damn sight easier to follow the arc of a composer's development when I can just pick up an existing cataloguing system and trust that it's reasonably in line.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 27, 2020, 04:32:23 PM

Quote from: Florestan on June 27, 2020, 12:54:27 PM
Come on, man! It's Op. 13 "Pathetique" and no matter how much you'll twist and turn it around, it'll always be Op. 13 "Pathetique".

I find this funny, given that opus numbers have largely disappeared for Haydn, have almost completely disappeared for Mozart and Schubert, and seem to be on their way out for the much later Dvorak. And yet you think opus numbers are immutable.

Back before Hoboken got involved, there was someone probably declaring that no matter what happened, Haydn's op.13 piano sonatas (a set of six) would always be op.13.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: aukhawk on June 28, 2020, 12:38:19 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2020, 02:11:03 PM
There is a reason why you will find a fairly noticeable difference in the 1768 works from the 1770 and later ones. It is because during 1768, Haydn began an entire series of lessons where he says he went back to the basics of composition and rethought how he did everything. The first result of this is that he started writing string quartets again, which he did for practice more than anything else. The next 4 years (1769-72) produced Op 9, 17 & 20, each one an improvement on the previous ones. But they also produced what came in later years to be called the Sturm und Drang symphonies, which feature the ones you seem mostly attracted to. That attraction isn't just random chance, it is a conscious effort on Haydn's part to write something different. I can't remember if you printed a list of the ones you were looking to hear, but these are the ones from the heart of that era. FWIW, Hob# 42 is one of MY favorites. :)

Year NC# Key Hob # Name
1770/71   50   e      44   Mourning
1770/71   51   Eb      43   Mercury
1771     52   c      52
1771     53   D      42
1772     54   G      47
1772     55   f#      45   Farewell
1772     56   B      46   Palindrome
1773     57   Bb      51
1773     58   A      64   Tempora Mutantur
1773/4   59   C      50

Thanks Gurn, that's a very informative post and a really useful little reference list. Having identified this early stylistic change, would you go so far as to say there is another 'fault line' in Haydn's output later on - roughly coinciding with Esterhazy's death, and Haydn turning his music more towards 'public' performance in places like Paris and London.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 28, 2020, 08:26:04 AM

Quote from: aukhawk on June 28, 2020, 12:38:19 AM
Thanks Gurn, that's a very informative post and a really useful little reference list. Having identified this early stylistic change, would you go so far as to say there is another 'fault line' in Haydn's output later on - roughly coinciding with Esterhazy's death, and Haydn turning his music more towards 'public' performance in places like Paris and London.

Thanks. I think it is fair to say there WAS another change in Haydn's style, although I wouldn't agree about the timing. Esterházy died in 1790, and by then the 'new' style was well on towards maturity. If I was choosing a specific event in his life which triggered the change, it would be ca. 1781, when for musical purposes he became a free man. The Entrepreneur (https://tinyurl.com/r2bdlme).

Several things happened here, beyond the Prince allowing him to sell his music on his own. Although he continued doing opera as his main job, the list of other theatrical works dwindles to nothing, the last theatrical symphony being #63, La Roxelane in 1779. After that, we have La chasse, but its finale comes from an opera overture, to La Fedeltà Premiata his current latest opera. The Hunt Symphony et al (https://tinyurl.com/y7xwrce4). Anyway, as you will see if you read that essay, I believe this is the genesis if Haydn late style. This is followed up with 76-81, a set of 6 that were the first he ever 'legally' offered for sale, then 82-87, the First Paris Symphonies and 88-92, the Second Paris Symphonies, and finally the 93-104, the London Symphonies. From my perspective, I look at 76-104 as a continuous arc of development. There is a clear break from what came before, and stylistically they are related.

Of course, I am an historian, not a musicologist, so this is just my opinion based on what was happening in his life, but when I empathetically look at the challenges he was facing, going from being strictly a private Kapellmeister to trying to please a world with which he really had no experience beyond Vienna, I think that his reaction to that would have been to develop something that would attract the greatest number and variety of listeners without selling himself out.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: aukhawk on June 28, 2020, 02:26:37 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 28, 2020, 08:26:04 AM
From my perspective, I look at 76-104 as a continuous arc of development. There is a clear break from what came before, and stylistically they are related.

Exactly what I was looking for - thanks again !! ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 28, 2020, 04:17:13 PM

Quote from: aukhawk on June 28, 2020, 02:26:37 PM
Exactly what I was looking for - thanks again !! ;)

My pleasure. Please visit us back in future with one of your perceptive analyses of this group. You probably noticed that I don't really give a damn about performers... ;) :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on June 29, 2020, 11:46:53 PM

Be it Haydn, Bach, Beethoven or Dvorak, numbering works appears to be a matter of convenience, convention, and practicality.

There's no doubt that conventions can change, given time and usage. But it determines a good deal of convenience and practicality. It can't be denied that simply having a standard to which everyone can refer and which everyone knows how to assess is helpful in-and-of-itself. I.e. if we all know that with "Schubert Symphony No. 8" the idea is the "Unfinished", communication becomes easier. There might be reasons to consider it the "Great C Major" (as musicologists have been trying to establish, to varying success, for half a century), but that means we introduce ambiguity... which requires the addition of more information to even identify the work. Sometimes the switch works nicely (I.e. Dvorak's "Symphony No. 5" is now associated with a different work (F major, Op. 76) and no longer with "From the New World"), sometimes old habits die harder. [Schubert is a special case; I think that the curious lacunae at No.7 is helpful in making us stop and think and perhaps realize that there *is* a largely ignored symphony that would fit the spot... and that there are even more symphonic drafts out there that are quite nice... and that things aren't always as simple as a continuous numbering system might have us believe. But that's a different topic again.]

As such, any conventionally used identifier (be it a D-, KV-, BWV- or even Hob.- number, an opus number, a "Symphony Number") primarily serves the function of identifying a work. I won't argue that additional information conveyed by any such numbering system isn't convenient or desirable, but first and foremost we need to establish what work we are talking about.

Secondly, the question of a numbering system is one of introducing a greater amount of information in the most concise (but also convenient) way. BWV numbers do that, by giving us the "type" of work. In establishing these (or most other systems), scholars rely on the amount of knowledge present at the time. BWV numbers left some room for future discoveries to be made and incorporated... another sign of a good system, because it allows room for convention to take hold _and_ some flexibility.

With better numbering systems being come up with, we face the reality of those numbers not meaning enough to too many people, so that additional information (i.e. the work's title or any other 'conventional' reference) becomes necessary. And if it is just a matter of adding information, it might be argued that sticking with convention and adding the year of composition serves that purpose neatly, giving us not only the identifier and a handle on the chronology but also an exact date.

What with the different preferences that we attach to these different aspects of identifiers, and our varying degree of familiarity with any given body of work, it's no wonder that we are arguing. I'm just happy if I am given enough information to know _what_ (or which piece) we are arguing about. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: amw on June 30, 2020, 01:07:32 AM

(https://cdns-images.dzcdn.net/images/cover/0d04ef37121d193fa13d08879a2382a0/500x500-000000-80-0-0.jpg)

Listening to these on Deezer and I have to say, regardless of how many old ladies he may have physically assaulted, Stefan Arzberger's intonation here (currently on Op. 50 no. 2) is really sloppy. I've enjoyed some of the earlier Haydn volumes with him but this is not really up to the same standard as e.g. their Beethoven or Mozart (which, admittedly, is extremely high). Bring 👏 back 👏 Andreas 👏 Seidel 👏

Side note: if you didn't know you can now listen to the Musikproduktion Dabringhaus und Grimm catalogue on Deezer (whereas it's still restricted on other streaming platforms), be advised that you can now listen to the Musikproduktion Dabringhaus und Grimm catalogue on Deezer.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 30, 2020, 04:26:53 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 27, 2020, 12:45:25 PM
Apparently I am both a nerd AND a contrarian. I can live with that. :)

8)

To thine own self be true 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on June 30, 2020, 04:28:43 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 29, 2020, 11:46:53 PM
Be it Haydn, Bach, Beethoven or Dvorak, it appears to be a matter of convenience, convention, and practicality.

There's no doubt that conventions can change, given time and usage. But it determines a good deal of convenience and practicality. It can't be denied that simply having a standard to which everyone can refer and which everyone knows how to assess is helpful in-and-of-itself. I.e. if we all know that with "Schubert Symphony No. 8" the idea is the "Unfinished", communication becomes easier. There might be reasons to consider it the "Great C Major" (as musicologists have been trying to establish, to varying success, for half a century), but that means we introduce ambiguity... which requires the addition of more information to even identify the work. Sometimes the switch works nicely (I.e. Dvorak's "Symphony No. 5" is now associated with a different work (F major, Op. 76) and no longer with "From the New World"), sometimes old habits die harder. [Schubert is a special case; I think that the curious lacunae at No.7 is helpful in making us stop and think and perhaps realize that there *is* a largely ignored symphony that would fit the spot... and that there are even more symphonic drafts out there that are quite nice... and that things aren't always as simple as a continuous numbering system might have us believe. But that's a different topic again.]

As such, any conventionally used identifier (be it a D-, KV-, BWV- or even Hob.- number, an opus number, a "Symphony Number") primarily serves the function of identifying a work. I won't argue that additional information conveyed by any such numbering system isn't convenient or desirable, but first and foremost we need to establish what work we are talking about.

Secondly, the question of a numbering system is one of introducing a greater amount of information in the most concise (but also convenient) way. BWV numbers do that, by giving us the "type" of work. In establishing these (or most other systems), scholars rely on the amount of knowledge present at the time. BWV numbers left some room for future discoveries to be made and incorporated... another sign of a good system, because it allows room for convention to take hold _and_ some flexibility.

With better numbering systems being come up with, we face the reality of those numbers not meaning enough to too many people, so that additional information (i.e. the work's title or any other 'conventional' reference) becomes necessary. And if it is just a matter of adding information, it might be argued that sticking with convention and adding the year of composition serves that purpose neatly, giving us not only the identifier and a handle on the chronology but also an exact date.

What with the different preferences that we attach to these different aspects of identifiers, and our varying degree of familiarity with any given body of work, it's no wonder that we are arguing. I'm just happy if I am given enough information to know _what_ (or which piece) we are arguing about. :D

I thank you for a thoroughly sensible response.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 30, 2020, 05:13:48 AM

Quote from: Florestan on June 27, 2020, 12:54:27 PM
You are neither --- you just love to appear as one.

And I was just telling Gurn that he should have renewed his nerd certification.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on June 30, 2020, 05:43:18 AM

I am not interested of the numbering systems! They are what they are. I'm waiting for the Op. 20 discs to arrive finally. I ordered them June 17th. International postal service is frustratingly slow and Covid-19 crisis made it even slower! :-X I am really hoping they will arrive tomorrow, July 1st. This is a problem: I get really excited about something. I order the CDs and then I wait for half a month or even longer for the shipment to arrive. So frustrating and it kills enthusiams. Oftentimes I have lost my excitement by the time the discs arrive and I have to wait for a year or two for the enthusiams to come back. :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 30, 2020, 05:46:58 AM

Quote from: 71 dB on June 30, 2020, 05:43:18 AM
I am not interested of the numbering systems! They are what they are. I'm waiting for the Op. 20 discs to arrive finally. I ordered them June 17th. International postal service is frustratingly slow and Covid-19 crisis made it even slower! :-X I am really hoping they will arrive tomorrow, July 1st. This is a problem: I get really excited about something. I order the CDs and then I wait for half a month or even longer for the shipment to arrive. So frustrating and it kills enthusiams. Oftentimes I have lost my excitement by the time the discs arrive and I have to wait for a year or two for the enthusiams to come back. :P

I know it's a challenge, but the virtue of Patience is our friend.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on June 30, 2020, 12:17:59 PM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 30, 2020, 05:46:58 AM
I know it's a challenge, but the virtue of Patience is our friend.

Yeah Karl. 0:)

I have now enough information to explore Haydn around 1772 by myself (meaning less presence here). This looks an attractive boxset:

[asin]B00004SA85[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 30, 2020, 12:55:15 PM

Quote from: 71 dB on June 30, 2020, 12:17:59 PM
Yeah Karl. 0:)

I have now enough information to explore Haydn around 1772 by myself (meaning less presence here). This looks an attractive boxset:

[asin]B00004SA85[/asin]

That does look nice.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on June 30, 2020, 04:39:27 PM

Quote from: 71 dB on June 30, 2020, 12:17:59 PM
Yeah Karl. 0:)

I have now enough information to explore Haydn around 1772 by myself (meaning less presence here). This looks an attractive boxset:

[asin]B00004SA85[/asin]

Love this set. Though I also highly recommend the Dennis Russell Davies set of all the symphonies if you can find a good price on it (I payed around $25 for it in 2013).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on June 30, 2020, 05:22:53 PM

Quote from: Daverz on June 30, 2020, 04:39:27 PM
Love this set. Though I also highly recommend the Dennis Russell Davies set of all the symphonies if you can find a good price on it (I payed around $25 for it in 2013).

He's not interested in anything but the S&D symphonies though, so you are wasting your time. :) I think he will be delighted with the Pinnock. I have the 6 individual disks: I have had them since before the box set came out and still listen to them quite frequently.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 30, 2020, 11:38:46 PM

Pinnock is the easiest choice for the symphonies around 1770 in a box. Brüggen and Hogwood are oop as separates and they are not as good (or at least not as uncontroversially excellent ;)), Weil is incomplete, so is Solomons, I think, and even harder to get. I'd still recommend all Solomons one can find despite the tiny and occasionally scrawny orchestra, especially for 39, 45 and 48.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: aukhawk on July 01, 2020, 06:51:45 AM

Collating the volumes (so far) of 'Haydn 2032' on the Alpha label, with Gurn's list, suggests two 'sweet spot' issues, Vols. 2 & 3 each including two works from Gurn's list. Vol 1 is also notable in including two minor-key symphonies (though from the 1760s). Note that each of these issues also includes a work not by Haydn, that is deemed to be somehow related (often tenuous, sometimes not).

'Haydn 2032' on the Alpha label
Il Giardino Armonico
* Kammerorchester Basel
cond. Giovanni Antonini

vol
1 - 39~, 49~, 1 (~ signifies minor key)
2 - 46, 22, 47
3 - 42, 64, 4
4 - 60, 70, 12
5*- 80~, 81, 19
6*- 3, 26~, 79, 30
7*- 67, 65, 9
8 - 63, 43, 28

Gurn's list:
Year NC# Key Hob # Name
1770/71 50 e 44 Mourning
1770/71 51 Eb 43 Mercury
1771 52 c 52
1771 53 D 42
1772 54 G 47
1772 55 f# 45 Farewell
1772 56 B 46 Palindrome
1773 57 Bb 51
1773 58 A 64 Tempora Mutantur
1773/4 59 C 50

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on July 01, 2020, 09:12:50 AM

The Naxos CDs of Op. 20 arrived today finally and I am listening to them. Yes, this is my kind of Haydn! I like these String Quartets significantly more than Op. 64 and Op. 76. The difference is shocking. Op. 20 sounds Mozartian and (proto-) Beethovenian at the same time. Maybe there are "better" performances of these works available, but I do like these Naxos discs. I'm not someone who understand the finest nyances of top notch performances and I think Naxos has very nice balanced sound. Not too muddy. Not too thin. These should have been my first Haydn discs over 20 years ago. Instead I started with Op. 64 discs and hit a rock (not hating them, but not excited to explore further either). :P

Quote from: Daverz on June 30, 2020, 04:39:27 PM
Love this set. Though I also highly recommend the Dennis Russell Davies set of all the symphonies if you can find a good price on it (I payed around $25 for it in 2013).

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on June 30, 2020, 05:22:53 PM
He's not interested in anything but the S&D symphonies though, so you are wasting your time. :) I think he will be delighted with the Pinnock. I have the 6 individual disks: I have had them since before the box set came out and still listen to them quite frequently.

8)

I'm not 100 % sure about that, but it certainly looks like the "S&D Symphonies" in average are the most attractive to me. I limit myself into this period at least for now (that's still plenty of works thanks to Haydn being so prolific) and maybe later I explore other periods. Haydn's early works seem to have it's own charm for example.

Maybe in 2013 one could buy the Dennis Russell Davies boxset for $25, but I'm affraid in 2020 that's unrealistic. In Amazon.co.uk the set goes for about £60 used and £770 new! :o ;D :o ??? ::)

Since I have the Dorati as mp3s, I am considering of getting the S&D Symphonies on physical discs and also have alternative performances for Dorati. The Pinnock boxset looks good for that. Naxos has "scattered" the S&D Symphonies all over the place with other Symphonies, but I have the one with 50, 51 and 52 which I bought about 10 years ago because I liked those Symphonies. Clearly an indication of where my taste is.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 01, 2020, 09:15:38 AM

Quote from: 71 dB on July 01, 2020, 09:12:50 AM
The Naxos CDs of Op. 20 arrived today finally and I am listening to them. Yes, this is my kind of Haydn! I like these String Quartets significantly more than Op. 64 and Op. 76. The difference is shocking. Op. 20 sounds Mozartian and (proto-) Beethovenian at the same time. Maybe there are "better" performances of these works available, but I do like these Naxos discs. I'm not someone who understand the finest nyances of top notch performances and I think Naxos has very nice balanced sound. Not too muddy. Not too thin. These should have been my first Haydn discs over 20 years ago. Instead I started with Op. 64 discs and hit a rock (not hating them, but not excited to explore further either). :P

I'm not 100 % sure about that, but it certainly looks like the "S&D Symphonies" in average are the most attractive to me. I limit myself into this period at least for now (that's still plenty of works thanks to Haydn being so prolific) and maybe later I explore other periods. Haydn's early works seem to have it's own charm for example.

Maybe in 2013 one could buy the Dennis Russell Davies boxset for $25, but I'm affraid in 2020 that's unrealistic. In Amazon.co.uk the set goes for about £60 used and £770 new! :o ;D :o ??? ::)

Since I have the Dorati as mp3s, I am considering of getting the S&D Symphonies on physical discs and also have alternative performances for Dorati. The Pinnock boxset looks good for that. Naxos has "scattered" the S&D Symphonies all over the place with other Symphonies, but I have the one with 50, 51 and 52 which I bought about 10 years ago because I liked those Symphonies. Clearly an indication of where my taste is.

Excellent! I'll join you in the Op. 20

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 01, 2020, 09:17:01 AM

Quote from: Daverz on June 30, 2020, 04:39:27 PM
Love this set. Though I also highly recommend the Dennis Russell Davies set of all the symphonies if you can find a good price on it (I payed around $25 for it in 2013).

I, too, am lastingly grateful for the DRD box.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on July 01, 2020, 09:18:25 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 01, 2020, 09:15:38 AM
Excellent! I'll join you in the Op. 20

Op. 20 joins the people together, hurrah! 0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on July 01, 2020, 11:26:59 AM

Million thanks to aukhawk for the comment of Op. 20 being where Haydn peaked with String Quartets. These two Naxos discs are blowing me away! :o

I love the music and I the luscious recorded sound*. Good spatiality with speakers and also with headphones when I use crossfeed level -8 dB.

I think I like the 2 minor Quartets the most, Op. 20/5 being maybe my favorite, but the major Quartets are not far behind. Simply a revelation for me after the semi-struggles with Op. 64 and Op. 76. 0:)

* Perhaps not the best/cleanest possible technically especially compared to what the best recordings are today, but it serves the music well. I find it quite enjoyable.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 01, 2020, 12:32:06 PM

Quote from: 71 dB on July 01, 2020, 09:18:25 AM
Op. 20 joins the people together, hurrah! 0:)

Well, unlike many people, I rarely listen to an entire opus at a time, I like to pick 1 or 2 from a few different ones and listen to 6 that way instead of a set. But since Op 20 is getting some well-deserved attention, I will jump on the bandwagon and say that my single favorite disk of Haydn quartets is this one, with Jaap Schroeder playing first violin:

(https://i.imgur.com/bvdH2LR.jpg)

But as with most music, I am far more pleased to have a good recording of the music than I am to have a specific performer. I know the Kodaly's do an excellent job, because they were my first set of everything except Op 76. If I had never gotten any others I would still be pleased to have the entire set of quartets. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on July 01, 2020, 01:22:42 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 01, 2020, 12:32:06 PM
Well, unlike many people, I rarely listen to an entire opus at a time, I like to pick 1 or 2 from a few different ones and listen to 6 that way instead of a set. But since Op 20 is getting some well-deserved attention, I will jump on the bandwagon and say that my single favorite disk of Haydn quartets is this one, with Jaap Schroeder playing first violin:

(https://i.imgur.com/bvdH2LR.jpg)

But as with most music, I am far more pleased to have a good recording of the music than I am to have a specific performer. I know the Kodaly's do an excellent job, because they were my first set of everything except Op 76. If I had never gotten any others I would still be pleased to have the entire set of quartets. :)

As much as I seem to like Op. 20 I'm not planning to get other performances. I hear absolutely nothing wrong with Kodály. I paid 8.39 euros total delivered for these discs and I enjoy them very much. This might be my best CD purchase of the year! It would be idiotic to doubt the enjoyment by "dreaming" about other releases of these works. Happiness is knowing when you are winning and know to stop reaching higher with a higher cost. If I spent say 30 euros for Op. 20 to have a better performance/recording, I would render these Naxos discs "worthless" (8.39 euros wasted) and I would have spent ~5 times more for a little better. Not cost-effective at all. I am winning now.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 01, 2020, 01:44:14 PM

Quote from: 71 dB on July 01, 2020, 01:22:42 PM
As much as I seem to like Op. 20 I'm not planning to get other performances. I hear absolutely nothing wrong with Kodály. I paid 8.39 euros total delivered for these discs and I enjoy them very much. This might be my best CD purchase of the year! It would be idiotic to doubt the enjoyment by "dreaming" about other releases of these works. Happiness is knowing when you are winning and know to stop reaching higher with a higher cost. If I spent say 30 euros for Op. 20 to have a better performance/recording, I would render these Naxos discs "worthless" (8.39 euros wasted) and I would have spent ~5 times more for a little better. Not cost-effective at all. I am winning now.

Yup.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on July 01, 2020, 11:58:37 PM

Although #2 and #4 are my favorite pieces in op.20, I didn't really like the Quartetto Esterházy disc. It is "old time HIP" not for the faint of heart and overall too rough and pioneering for me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on July 02, 2020, 02:45:02 AM

Always on the lookout for good versions of these particular Haydn symphonies.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eb3309eXsAYgA0f?format=jpg&name=small)

#morninglistening to #Haydn #symphonies 6-8 w/ #OrfeoOrchestra under #GyörgyVashegyi on #ACCENTrecords /
@Note_1

: http://a-fwd.to/4664xTp (http://a-fwd.to/4664xTp)

Good... but not great?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 02, 2020, 08:22:44 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on July 01, 2020, 11:58:37 PM
Although #2 and #4 are my favorite pieces in op.20, I didn't really like the Quartetto Esterházy disc. It is "old time HIP" not for the faint of heart and overall too rough and pioneering for me.

Gotta figure, it's on Seon produced by Wolf Erichson (RIP). Guess that's why it works for me: I'm old-time HIP too, but on top of that, I am a great fan of Schroeder, and he plays beautifully on this disk. Anyway, I'm not recommending it to anyone, not even 71dB who can't think in any other terms, I'm just saying it's MY favorite string quartet disk. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 02, 2020, 08:26:18 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on July 02, 2020, 02:45:02 AM
Always on the lookout for good versions of these particular Haydn symphonies.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eb3309eXsAYgA0f?format=jpg&name=small)

#morninglistening to #Haydn #symphonies 6-8 w/ #OrfeoOrchestra under #GyörgyVashegyi on #ACCENTrecords /
@Note_1

: http://a-fwd.to/4664xTp (http://a-fwd.to/4664xTp)

Good... but not great?

Jens, is that the same orchestra that Michi Gaigg also conducts? Or a different Orfeo (Baroque?) Orchestra? If it is, they are very fine players indeed! I have many versions of those works, wouldn't hurt my feelings to have another... :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on July 02, 2020, 10:39:06 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 02, 2020, 08:26:18 AM
Jens, is that the same orchestra that Michi Gaigg also conducts? Or a different Orfeo (Baroque?) Orchestra? If it is, they are very fine players indeed! I have many versions of those works, wouldn't hurt my feelings to have another... :D

8)

Different band! These are a Hungarian band.
Recorded at Esterhaza... to which I once biked on a lovely little bicycle vacation.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 02, 2020, 12:32:08 PM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on July 02, 2020, 10:39:06 AM
Different band! These are a Hungarian band.
Recorded at Esterhaza... to which I once biked on a lovely little bicycle vacation.

Ah, I see. Well, that was not a totally inappropriate venue, and certainly one which I would love to be able to say I had biked to! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: aukhawk on July 10, 2020, 02:34:02 AM

I'm enjoying listening to some of the Op.20 Quartets played by the Doric Quartet.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81RDS8GKPGL._SS500_.jpg)

Well - 'enjoying' - well yes I am because, after all, it is Haydn. ;D

But these are not 'cosy' or 'salon' Haydn - these are Performances sounding to my ear as from a much later date. Played largely without vibrato, but with great attack and verve and presence.
Anyway, I'll just mention that this set of all six of Op.20 is currently available at a rather good price from Presto - £8 for 96/24 downloads - great value - only for a couple more days.
I'm very happy to add these to my collection but they wouldn't be my top choice (Chiaroscuros).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on July 31, 2020, 07:30:23 PM

Just listened to a piece completely unknown to me- Hob XXIVa:11 - Die Erwählung eines Kapellmeisters, in a performance conducted by Gennady Rozhdostvensky.

The booklet says it's probably not by Haydn. I'm just wondering if anything recent has come to light about its authorship. The music would probably fit rather well into a Mozart opera.

Here's a Youtube version, without the recitatives.

https://youtu.be/eHEXpn-8lwE

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on August 01, 2020, 06:45:56 AM

I borrowed this disc from a friend:

[asin]B00005JJ40[/asin]

While this is an enjoyable disc, there was some kind of "lack of warmth" to it imo. I need to listen to it more...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vers la flamme on August 01, 2020, 07:52:28 PM

Quote from: 71 dB on August 01, 2020, 06:45:56 AM
I borrowed this disc from a friend:

[asin]B00005JJ40[/asin]

While this is an enjoyable disc, there was some kind of "lack of warmth" to it imo. I need to listen to it more...

I like that album artwork. Don't know anything about the music. Most of the Haydn symphonies I know are in the 80+ range.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on August 01, 2020, 08:00:39 PM

Quote from: vers la flamme on August 01, 2020, 07:52:28 PM
I like that album artwork. Don't know anything about the music. Most of the Haydn symphonies I know are in the 80+ range.

Cover Photo: Haydn's birthplace at Rahran by G. Gander. These Symphonies are from early 1770's and are to my liking.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on August 01, 2020, 11:37:56 PM

The name of the village or town is Rohrau

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohrau,_Austria

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on August 15, 2020, 04:14:57 PM

Quote from: 71 dB on August 01, 2020, 06:45:56 AM
I borrowed this disc from a friend:

[asin]B00005JJ40[/asin]

While this is an enjoyable disc, there was some kind of "lack of warmth" to it imo. I need to listen to it more...

I compared #47 from this to Pinnock on Archiv. This Naxos disc appears to have "better" wider/fuller sound, but for my taste it's reverberation is too wet compared to the direct sound making the music a bit "tame." Pinnock uses faster tempi which together with less reverberant (more raw) sound makes it more energetic and exciting in comparison. Looks like the 6 CD Archiv box is what I want. The Naxos is not bad. It's just too "smooth" Haydn for my taste.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on August 15, 2020, 04:19:18 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on August 01, 2020, 11:37:56 PM
The name of the village or town is Rohrau

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohrau,_Austria

Interesting. Naxos has it wrong then.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on August 15, 2020, 06:05:03 PM

Doric Quartet Op 33 is coming soon!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: André on September 11, 2020, 01:47:16 PM

Quote from: Brian on August 15, 2020, 06:05:03 PM
Doric Quartet Op 33 is coming soon!

Heard 2 tracks from a Chandos sampler record. The scherzo from op 33 no 5 zips along much faster than what I normally hear. Also, no lurching luftpause before the last note of the theme. I wonder why. What does the score say?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on September 19, 2020, 08:38:16 AM

(https://i.postimg.cc/T1QdVqvJ/First-Page.png)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on September 19, 2020, 09:07:08 AM

^ I see tears welling in Gurn's eyes! :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 19, 2020, 11:48:50 AM

Quote from: Scion7 on September 19, 2020, 09:07:08 AM
^ I see tears welling in Gurn's eyes! :P

"It was the best of times; it was the best of times...". :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on November 09, 2020, 05:38:55 AM

Dave Hurwitz has extremely harsh words about the Doric Quartet recording of Op. 33. I'd previously enjoyed some Doric volumes, although the sound quality had seemed to differ in each release. Here's DH:

"Consider their ridiculously exaggerated tempos: finales and, occasionally, scherzos (No. 5's for instance) played so fast as to be rendered featureless. Then there is their revolting habit of italicizing virtually every phrase. Listen to the start of Quartet No. 4, or the hopelessly flabby opening of the B Minor Quartet (No. 1), an approach that negates every impulse towards the necessary forward momentum. Dynamics are relentlessly exaggerated throughout. The trio of the scherzo in the "Joke" Quartet, with its humorous glissandos, takes place in another (much slower) universe entirely.

"All of this drives home perhaps the most significant issue: the Op. 33 quartets contain some of Haydn's most hilarious music, but the Doric has not a shred of comic timing. Their dully predictable application of what they no doubt consider to be "authentic" mannerisms operates completely independently of what the music is trying to express, defeating Haydn's evident intentions at every turn. Consider the delicious slow movement of Quartet No. 5, an exaggeratedly tragic aria that invites the principal violin to "ham it up" as much as possible. First violinist Alex Redington misses the point entirely, offering thin tone at an excessively slow tempo. Most quartets wreck the ending, rendering Haydn's last, hilariously dismissive pizzicato "plonk" piano instead of at the indicated forte. The Doric gets the dynamics right, which is admirable, but their timing is still somehow off."

https://www.classicstoday.com/review/the-doric-disses-haydns-op-33/

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on November 09, 2020, 07:05:31 AM

Hurwitz did a Haydn quartet survey on youtube recently. To my surprise he falsely claimed that the Buchberger was playing on old instruments (they are somewhat historically informed but clearly a modern ensemble) and I was almost as surprised that he picked the Apponyi op.33 as fav for that opus. No, this is doubtlessly a very good recording but I think it tends to the abrasive side of HIP (like Musica Antiqua in their prime).
Hurwitz can be so harsh on some period instrument recordings, that it's always a bit surprising when he likes one that seems to exhibit the "faults" (wiry and not always pleasant sounds) he usually complains about. I have not heard any Doric but IIRC the Apponyi in fact do that ironic? closure of the "violin aria" mentioned above, very convincingly. In fact, this was my first complete recording op.33, so I was somewhat surprised when other ensembles played this piece "seriously" (It's a bit similar with the overdecorated adagio in Beethoven's op.31/1 that can be played like a parody (e.g. by Gulda) or seriously (like Schnabel, Arrau or Gilels do).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on November 09, 2020, 08:54:20 AM

FWIW Hurwitz' choices with my comment, if I know the recording

op.1+2, 42,103 Tatrai/hungaroton
op.9 Buchberger/Brilliant - pretty good, I had two or three volumes of theirs and kept only this (but mainly because lack of competition, my overall fav for op.1 through 17 is still Angeles in their big box)
op.17 Leipzig/MDG
op.20 Daedalus/Bridge (never even heard of the ensemble)
op.33 Apponyi/Ars musici, see above. They are thrilling, but pretty abrasive HIP, for a similar approach I prefer the equally manic but more appealing sounding Cuarteto casals
op.50 Tokyo/DG, one of the most famous Haydn Qt. recordings, but I have not heard it. My rec is the Amati/Divox which has been reissued as a cheap twofer but was worth its price as two not so cheap singles
op.54/55 Auryn/Tacet and he says that Auryn is a great choice for the whole bunch. As far as great sound and very good playing goes, certainly correct (I have not heard their 54/55).
op.64 Amadeus/DG I disagree that this is their best Haydn. I am not fond of their sound and Brainin's solo in the Lark, not for me. If Amadeus, I'd rather get their op.54/55
op.71/74 Griller/Vanguard as he points out, lacking many repeats but very lively
op.76 Takacs/Decca (don't know it but there are of course plenty of good recordings of that one)
op.77 Mosaiques/Naive (or whatever they are on these day) I concur that this is a very good recording

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on November 10, 2020, 01:02:00 AM

I tried the Doric's op.20 a while ago as part of my general quest to figure out what versions I was going to buy for all the opuses I don't yet own. I thought it was okay but didn't really like the string tone, a bit on the thin side.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on November 10, 2020, 01:03:36 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on November 09, 2020, 07:05:31 AM
Hurwitz did a Haydn quartet survey on youtube recently. To my surprise he falsely claimed that the Buchberger was playing on old instruments (they are somewhat historically informed but clearly a modern ensemble)

He literally corrects that in the very review we're talking about.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: amw on November 10, 2020, 02:05:26 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on November 09, 2020, 08:54:20 AM
FWIW Hurwitz' choices with my comment, if I know the recording

op.1+2, 42,103 Tatrai/hungaroton
op.9 Buchberger/Brilliant - pretty good, I had two or three volumes of theirs and kept only this (but mainly because lack of competition, my overall fav for op.1 through 17 is still Angeles in their big box)
op.17 Leipzig/MDG
op.20 Daedalus/Bridge (never even heard of the ensemble)
op.33 Apponyi/Ars musici, see above. They are thrilling, but pretty abrasive HIP, for a similar approach I prefer the equally manic but more appealing sounding Cuarteto casals
op.50 Tokyo/DG, one of the most famous Haydn Qt. recordings, but I have not heard it. My rec is the Amati/Divox which has been reissued as a cheap twofer but was worth its price as two not so cheap singles
op.54/55 Auryn/Tacet and he says that Auryn is a great choice for the whole bunch. As far as great sound and very good playing goes, certainly correct (I have not heard their 54/55).
op.64 Amadeus/DG I disagree that this is their best Haydn. I am not fond of their sound and Brainin's solo in the Lark, not for me. If Amadeus, I'd rather get their op.54/55
op.71/74 Griller/Vanguard as he points out, lacking many repeats but very lively
op.76 Takacs/Decca (don't know it but there are of course plenty of good recordings of that one)
op.77 Mosaiques/Naive (or whatever they are on these day) I concur that this is a very good recording

I would add:
Tatrai/Hungaroton 1, 2, 42, 103—no, borderline unlistenable due to persistent intonation problems. for Op. 1 and 2 the Auryn Quartett probably strikes the right balance of aristocratic & comic, not sure what I'd recommend for 42 and 103 but almost any other recording
Buchberger 9—decent, but I think outclassed by the London Haydn Quartet & Quatuor Festetics to a lesser degree
Leipzig 17—haven't heard it; current recommendation would probably also be the LHQ
Daedalus 20—have heard of it but not heard it; current recommendation would be the Chiaroscuro, Hagen and Pellegrini Quartets
Apponyi 33—agree with this but think the LHQ is also essential for a completely different view
Tokyo 50—no, doesn't hold up technically except in the tight ensemble playing; Amati, Leipzig, LHQ all much better
Auryn 54/55—mostly agree with this
Amadeus 64—definitely disagree with this. would name Mosaïques, LHQ, Doric as probable first choices depending on one's exact tastes
Griller 71/74—haven't heard it but am sure it's good; current recommendation would be Auryn first recording (1994) for 71 and not sure about 74
Takacs 76—agree with this but Buchberger also very good & Chiaroscuro (incomplete) shaping up to be essential
Mosaïques 77—mostly agree with this

obviously I am a bit of a London Haydn Quartet partisan....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on November 10, 2020, 03:03:11 AM

Quote from: amw on November 10, 2020, 02:05:26 AM
I would add:
Tatrai/Hungaroton 1, 2, 42, 103—no, borderline unlistenable due to persistent intonation problems. for Op. 1 and 2 the Auryn Quartett probably strikes the right balance of aristocratic & comic, not sure what I'd recommend for 42 and 103 but almost any other recording
Buchberger 9—decent, but I think outclassed by the London Haydn Quartet & Quatuor Festetics to a lesser degree
Leipzig 17—haven't heard it; current recommendation would probably also be the LHQ
Daedalus 20—have heard of it but not heard it; current recommendation would be the Chiaroscuro, Hagen and Pellegrini Quartets
Apponyi 33—agree with this but think the LHQ is also essential for a completely different view
Tokyo 50—no, doesn't hold up technically except in the tight ensemble playing; Amati, Leipzig, LHQ all much better
Auryn 54/55—mostly agree with this
Amadeus 64—definitely disagree with this. would name Mosaïques, LHQ, Doric as probable first choices depending on one's exact tastes
Griller 71/74—haven't heard it but am sure it's good; current recommendation would be Auryn first recording (1994) for 71 and not sure about 74
Takacs 76—agree with this but Buchberger also very good & Chiaroscuro (incomplete) shaping up to be essential
Mosaïques 77—mostly agree with this

obviously I am a bit of a London Haydn Quartet partisan....

Whereas I found LHQ 9 horrible, utterly loved at least one movement of Tokyo 50 when it came up in a blind listening here on GMG some years ago, didn't like Chiaroscuro 20 at all...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: aukhawk on November 10, 2020, 07:04:25 AM

Quote from: Brian on November 09, 2020, 05:38:55 AM
Dave Hurwitz has extremely harsh words about the Doric Quartet recording of Op. 33. I'd previously enjoyed some Doric volumes, although the sound quality had seemed to differ in each release. Here's DH:

Some personnel changes between each release, to judge by the cover images, could explain the sound differences. I like the Dorics a lot, which is not to say they're my absolute No.1 choice.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on November 10, 2020, 07:49:57 AM

Until these comments on op.33 I had seen almost nothing but praise for the Doric, both for their Haydn as well as for Korngold or whatever else they did (I have not heard any of their recordings). The London Haydn Q seemed more controversial but I simply couldn't be bothered to buy any of theirs feeling quite saturated with Haydn (same with the Doric, only the LHC (Linear Hadron Collider was first) had the additional attraction of being HIP and covering less covered terrain)

If money is not an issue, one can get all with the Auryn for superlative sound, especially the numbers up to op. 17 and others not so well covered. I am poor and already have a full shelf with Haydn, so I only have their opp.17,33 and the older recording of 71. And I didn't like the op.33 as much as I hoped. (Nevertheless, I'd say that opp.20,33,76 and 77 are covered quite well with a broad range of good to excellent recordings available).
And the Petersen op.1 should be mentioned, unfortunately the only Haydn they recorded.

I finally got the Juilliard Epic box with their great (albeit repeat-free) op.54, unfortunately not available separately. As I said I have not heard the Auryn, Doric and LHC in these works but opp. 54/55, 64 and 71/74 are probably the ones still awaiting a really good modern (or any) recording.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on November 10, 2020, 08:50:51 AM

Quote from: amw on November 10, 2020, 02:05:26 AM
Daedalus 20—have heard of it but not heard it;

On the basis of one of the quartets, #2, it feels a bit granny /maiden aunt style.Sorry I don't know of a non sexist way to say it.

I like old git style. Do Americans understand the word git? Autocorrect on the iPad doesn't!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: amw on November 10, 2020, 10:54:40 AM

Quote from: Madiel on November 10, 2020, 03:03:11 AM
Whereas I found LHQ 9 horrible, utterly loved at least one movement of Tokyo 50 when it came up in a blind listening here on GMG some years ago, didn't like Chiaroscuro 20 at all...

That's fair. I think people who really dislike the London Haydn Quartet almost always end up liking the Quatuor Festetics, and vice versa, which is something to bear in mind whenever I give recommendations.

I still don't understand the classic status of the Tokyo op. 50 or why so many people love it—still have a copy though (which I spent actual money on, so I'm fairly attached to it) in case it ever clicks.

(The Auryn complete set would be an immediate recommendation if they put it into a box set. Maybe they will consider that now that the ensemble is retiring. It's also now available on most streaming services, which at this point should probably make it a top "consensus" recommendation since most people don't buy CDs anymore and it's better than the Angeles or Aeolian Quartets etc. That said I've come across some people who think their style is boring.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on November 10, 2020, 11:48:18 AM

Whichever bit of the Auryn I managed to sample did feel a little bit smooth and polite.

I would really like to get the Mosaiques if I can pick up some of their recordings at a reasonable price. I also want to get Amati in... it's one of the 50s, I don't have my notes right now.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on November 10, 2020, 12:06:33 PM

The Amati's op.50 on Divox was on two single discs but apparently has been repackaged as a twofer and was recently very cheap at jpc; two discs for half of what I paid 15 years ago for each of the singles which might not help US/AUS/NZ listeners). They also did op.77,1+2 (not quite as good as their op.50, I think) and a mixed Haydn/Mozart disc that has one from op.33 (I have not heard that last disc.

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/joseph-haydn-complete-stringquartets-op-50/hnum/8762234
https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Amati-Quartett/hnum/4154309

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on November 10, 2020, 12:23:57 PM

I really like the Fine Arts Quartet's Op. 50 in the Vox Box Haydn Quartet set. Qobuz and 7 Digital have it as lossless downloads ($8 from Qobuz for the complete quartets) and Amazon has MP3 (maybe AmazonHD has FLAC?).

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71sM2oDtmEL._SS500_.jpg)

https://open.qobuz.com/album/0047163598524

https://us.7digital.com/artist/dekany-quartet-and-fine-arts-quartet/release/haydn-complete-string-quartets-the-voxmegabox-edition-4524105

https://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Complete-String-Quartets-VoxMegaBox/dp/B00YRDOGKQ

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on November 10, 2020, 01:36:03 PM

I've heard a few Auryn discs and enjoyed them so far. I also enjoyed streaming a couple of previous Doric releases. The only quartet I've consistently disliked is...well...the London Haydn Quartet, which seems like it's trying to emulate not just 1700s style, but 1700s amateur style in somebody's drafty country house. My dislike of LHQ isn't ideological or rabid like Hurwitz's, it's purely aesthetic.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vers la flamme on November 10, 2020, 05:00:13 PM

Quote from: Mandryka on November 10, 2020, 08:50:51 AM
On the basis of one of the quartets, #2, it feels a bit granny /maiden aunt style.Sorry I don't know of a non sexist way to say it.

I like old git style. Do Americans understand the word git? Autocorrect on the iPad doesn't!

No.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on November 11, 2020, 12:34:38 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on November 10, 2020, 12:06:33 PM
The Amati's op.50 on Divox was on two single discs but apparently has been repackaged as a twofer and was recently very cheap at jpc; two discs for half of what I paid 15 years ago for each of the singles which might not help US/AUS/NZ listeners). They also did op.77,1+2 (not quite as good as their op.50, I think) and a mixed Haydn/Mozart disc that has one from op.33 (I have not heard that last disc.

https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/joseph-haydn-complete-stringquartets-op-50/hnum/8762234
https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Amati-Quartett/hnum/4154309

Yes I'm aware of the repackaging. That's why it got on my shopping list, really.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: staxomega on November 12, 2020, 12:11:13 PM

Quote from: amw on November 10, 2020, 10:54:40 AM
That's fair. I think people who really dislike the London Haydn Quartet almost always end up liking the Quatuor Festetics, and vice versa, which is something to bear in mind whenever I give recommendations.

Interesting observation, why do you think that is? I certainly fall into the loving Festetics category but I only listen to Op. 71 from London Haydn Quartet with any regularity.

For the other quartets LHQ are tolerable in small doses, my main complaint with them wasn't with their tone or intonation it was just that they were a bit wild in some fast movements; almost like a HIP Lindsays with some additional quirks like some haphazard rubato (doesn't sound unnatural or forced) and odd phrasing. Or moments when you think the first violinist is going to run away with it and fall apart just to have the rest of the ensemble "catch up". It was like it was more mental processing required to listen to them than what should be necessary. I should revisit their recordings, who knows maybe over familiarity with the music this would now make them a welcome alternative view. I don't think I have heard the LHQ in op. 9.

I'm only half way through Auryn and I agree with others that they are smooth. So far their Haydn recordings are the only ones I've found to be a must have from them.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on November 13, 2020, 06:57:32 AM

For those interested in the London Haydn Quartet's recordings of Papa's SQs (I own all through the one below released in the fall of 2019) - curious about the plans for the remaining performances? So visited their website HERE (https://londonhaydnquartet.co.uk/home/) and on their 'Contact Tab', several email addresses were present - I contacted Catherine Manson and she responded w/i a few days - here comments are below for those interested. Dave :)

QuoteHi Dave,

Great to hear from you and so pleased to hear you are looking forward to the next releases. The good news is that op 76s are already finished and awaiting release. This was supposed to be in January but I see it has now been pushed back to February. We were very lucky to be able to finish recording them just days before everything shut down in March. At the moment we don't know when our next lucky moment will be in which to record the op 77s, op 42 and Seven Last Words but we are looking forward to that moment very eagerly!

Thanks again for your email - it's so good to hear that you are enjoying these recordings of this wonderful music.

All very best wishes,

Catherine

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71QrvjV7gYL._SL1200_.jpg) (https://londonhaydnquartet.co.uk/images/London-Haydn-Quartet.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 13, 2020, 07:03:13 AM

Quote from: Madiel on November 10, 2020, 01:03:36 AM
He literally corrects that in the very review we're talking about.

Good for him.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on November 19, 2020, 12:54:13 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq973BoUzpg
"On the track of composers: Josef Haydn"

Smokin 'im Jungenzimmer
Smokin 'im Jungenzimmer
Nun, Lehrer, füllen Sie mich nicht mit Ihren Regeln
Weil jeder weiß, dass Rauchen in der Schule nicht erlaubt ist -- attested to 14 yr old Haydn

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vandermolen on December 01, 2020, 03:20:29 AM

Another rare appearance by me on this thread. This CD was sent to me in error (instead of Sir Arthur Bliss's Oboe Quintet ::)). Anyway, the company told me to keep it and I'm currently enjoying Symphony No.31. It certainly makes a nice change and my wife will not object to it:
(//)
And I just bought this one:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on December 01, 2020, 08:42:30 AM

Quote from: vandermolen on December 01, 2020, 03:20:29 AM
It certainly makes a nice change and my wife will not object to it:

Healthy musical diet... 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 01, 2020, 08:43:06 AM

Quote from: vandermolen on December 01, 2020, 03:20:29 AM
Another rare appearance by me on this thread. This CD was sent to me in error (instead of Sir Arthur Bliss's Oboe Quintet ::)). Anyway, the company told me to keep it and I'm currently enjoying Symphony No.31. It certainly makes a nice change and my wife will not object to it:
(//)
And I just bought this one:

Sadly I can't see any pictures in your post (it's the same old problem, apparently my browser rather than yours), but I can certainly see anyone enjoying Symphony #31, the horn work alone is worth the price of admission! :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on December 01, 2020, 08:55:28 AM

" makes a nice change and my wife will not object to it "

... I take it she is bombarded with ye olde Potemkin day 'n' night, mate? :P

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vandermolen on December 01, 2020, 10:03:57 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 01, 2020, 08:43:06 AM
Sadly I can't see any pictures in your post (it's the same old problem, apparently my browser rather than yours), but I can certainly see anyone enjoying Symphony #31, the horn work alone is worth the price of admission! :)

8)

Here's one of them Gurn (the other one is in the same series).
Totally agree about Symphony No.31 which I've already played several times:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Haydn-Symphonies-Nos-Hornsignal-Farewell/dp/B000003CUK/ref=sr_1_3?crid=289ZFD070JLZ7&dchild=1&keywords=haydn+mackerras&qid=1606849318&s=music&sprefix=haydn+mackerras%2Caps%2C150&sr=1-3

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vandermolen on December 01, 2020, 10:04:56 AM

Quote from: Scion7 on December 01, 2020, 08:55:28 AM
" makes a nice change and my wife will not object to it "

... I take it she is bombarded with ye olde Potemkin day 'n' night, mate? :P

Something like that - you have a good understanding. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 01, 2020, 10:57:27 AM

Quote from: vandermolen on December 01, 2020, 10:03:57 AM
Here's one of them Gurn (the other one is in the same series).
Totally agree about Symphony No.31 which I've already played several times:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Haydn-Symphonies-Nos-Hornsignal-Farewell/dp/B000003CUK/ref=sr_1_3?crid=289ZFD070JLZ7&dchild=1&keywords=haydn+mackerras&qid=1606849318&s=music&sprefix=haydn+mackerras%2Caps%2C150&sr=1-3

Ah, I had one of those Orchestra of St. Luke's disks:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71A958%2BB-XL._SL1205_.jpg)

back in the days before I went straight HIP. It was my favorite among the modern instruments versions I had, and I am very fond of MacKerras in any case. Sweet!

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vandermolen on December 01, 2020, 12:14:30 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 01, 2020, 10:57:27 AM
Ah, I had one of those Orchestra of St. Luke's disks:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71A958%2BB-XL._SL1205_.jpg)

back in the days before I went straight HIP. It was my favorite among the modern instruments versions I had, and I am very fond of MacKerras in any case. Sweet!

8)

That's the other one that I just ordered. Yes, Mackerras was a fine conductor and I particularly enjoyed his recordings of Walton's symphonies, Brian's 7th Symphony and Suk's 'Asrael Symphony'.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on December 02, 2020, 07:25:06 AM

The next volume of Antonini's cycle is due in January and features Symphonies 15, 35, 45, and "Scena di Berenice" with Sandrine Piau. Il Giardino Armonico.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 02, 2020, 07:39:19 AM

Quote from: Brian on December 02, 2020, 07:25:06 AM
The next volume of Antonini's cycle is due in January and features Symphonies 15, 35, 45, and "Scena di Berenice" with Sandrine Piau. Il Giardino Armonico.

Nice. At the pace they are coming out, it will be a push to see the cycle by 2032... :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Biffo on December 02, 2020, 08:13:58 AM

Quote from: vandermolen on December 01, 2020, 03:20:29 AM
Another rare appearance by me on this thread. This CD was sent to me in error (instead of Sir Arthur Bliss's Oboe Quintet ::)). Anyway, the company told me to keep it and I'm currently enjoying Symphony No.31. It certainly makes a nice change and my wife will not object to it:
(//)
And I just bought this one:

It is a shame they didn't send you a mint copy of Symphonies No 80 & 81 from the same forces, there is one for sale on Amazon for £1201.53 (used copies start at £9.01).

I have just been listening to Mackerras in No 31 via Spotify. I have a gap in my Haydn symphonies from No 31 to No 51 - this may help to fill it though Amazon only have it as mp3 download.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vandermolen on December 02, 2020, 10:27:46 AM

Quote from: Biffo on December 02, 2020, 08:13:58 AM
It is a shame they didn't send you a mint copy of Symphonies No 80 & 81 from the same forces, there is one for sale on Amazon for £1201.53 (used copies start at £9.01).

I have just been listening to Mackerras in No 31 via Spotify. I have a gap in my Haydn symphonies from No 31 to No 51 - this may help to fill it though Amazon only have it as mp3 download.

No. 31 is my favourite of the few that I know, especially the opening movement. It was sent to me in error by Momox instead of Bliss's Oboe Quintet (also on Telarc). Pity I can't sell it for £1000 but I'm happy with the CD and ordered nos 101 and 104 by the same forces.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on December 04, 2020, 10:01:54 PM

Vandermolen's mention of the Hornsignal Symphony prompted me to listen to it again, and also listen to those other three symphonies written within a few years of each other that also feature 4 horns.

In order of composition they are Symphonies 30, 31, 37 and 40, but in an amusing illustration of how stupid the traditional numbering is the traditional numbers are: 72, 13, 31 and 39 respectively.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on December 04, 2020, 10:49:29 PM

I've probably asked this before, but... who's good for Symphonies 76-78 and 79-81?

I'm looking at Adam Fischer. I gather that the relevant box (70-81) is one of the better ones in his series because it was recorded later in the project.

I just find it baffling that these trios of symphonies are so underrepresented compared to the Paris and London sets, when they're the other 'public' symphonies that Haydn wrote once his relationship with the Esterhazys changed.

And then you have annoying situations like Dantone recording 78-81 to fill out a box set, meaning that 76-77 aren't available unless you plump for that entire box set, because they were only ever on an obscure BBC music magazine disc.

I know Goodman did 76-78, but I don't really want his harpsichord. And he didn't do 79-81 anyway.

So... any suggestions besides Fischer, or is Fischer a good option?

EDIT: I also know about Naxos single CDs (could get a few), and there's a Hungaroton one of 79-81 but I'm not sure how good it is.

SECOND EDIT: And it seems the Haydn 2032 projects has done 79-81, though not all in one volume.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on December 05, 2020, 12:41:58 AM

76-81 are among the best in the uneven Fischer cycle, I think. (This is from memory but I did compare most of Haydn's symphonies about 10 years ago around the anniversary, often even taking notes )

The Naxos is a mixed bag, I thought Müller-Brühl pretty good in 81 but mannered in 80 (he is overdoing the rests and rubato in the first movement, I think), I don't think I have heard the others (Ward does 77-79 and Müller-Brühl 74-76).

I rather liked Goodman in 76-78, I guess I found them good enough to keep despite the overprominent harpsichord.

I have not heard the Dantone but it is still findable as a twofer (if my Haydn shelves weren't as full, I'd be tempted...)

[asin]B017MZSL74[/asin]

80 is the best covered discographically (there is even an ancient recording with Scherchen from the 1950s) and probably also the most interesting piece of these 2x3.
My overall favorite of 79-81 is maybe Orpheus CO on DG but it is spread over 3 discs, all usually oop (the best of which is 22/80/63, I think), their 77 is also good although the main fault of Orpheus (perfect playing but a bit faceless) might be a bit more evident here (and more so in the discmate 44). (Have not heard their 78 and they didn't get to 76)

But if you can find a partial box of Fischer's at a reasonable price, it is certainly a very good option.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on December 05, 2020, 01:39:17 AM

Thanks. I'd forgotten about the Orpheus ones but if they didn't do all 6 of the ones I want they won't be a priority.

I have definitely seen that copies of Fischer's mini-boxes are still around, so I'm hopeful I can find the 70-81 box. Of course getting a full set is always an option but I'd rather not. I'm pretty happy with the Hogwood set for numbers 1-75.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on December 05, 2020, 02:10:30 AM

I am not the greatest fan of Hogwood but he is very consistent, very complete with some alternative versions and at least in the older issues with very good comments and documentation (I have 4 of these 3-disc boxes with fat double jewelcases and booklets that take up way too much space).

I got Fischer complete on Brilliant when it was first issued as a complete box many years ago because it was so cheap and even after years of collecting I still had gaps for Haydn symphonies.
Fischer is inconsistent in several respects, recorded sound, playing quality and style of interpretation. Fischer got more and more HIP-influenced during the cycle, usually to the advantage of the music although the playing is a bit rough sometimes and he takes some liberties even most HIPists would not (like unmarked string soli in trios or so). But it usually does not feel mannered, in any case much better than his often rather faceless early recordings. As he did not progress strictly chronologically or numerically this has some "shocks" if one listens to the Brilliant issue that keeps the numerical order. E.g. 21 is a great recording while the early 22 is quite boring, 39 highly dramatic, as good as any of the period instrument recordings, 45 lukewarm. But I think the "70s" are all rather late recordings.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on December 05, 2020, 02:15:04 AM

Yes, the 70-81 recordings are all later on. About 1997-98, when he started in the late 1980s and ended around 2001.

I found a review that listed all the recording years because I was already aware that the series is widely considered to have got much better than it went. Apparently even by Fischer himself! He's reported to have commented he wished he could go back and redo the symphonies he recorded at the start.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on December 05, 2020, 04:32:12 AM

I have not heard any of Adam Fischer's more recent stuff, but as far as I recall he remade a bunch of late Haydn for another label and both these and also the Danish recording of the complete Mozart symphonies were very favorably received.
I guess one shouldn't complain nowadays with Dantone and the Haydn 2032 project and a few other odds and ends around but it still feels that these pieces are not as well covered on disc as one could expect. (This roughly holds for anything without a nickname from 54 to 81 but some got it worse, partly because Hogwood and Goodman did never get to them.)
When I first tried to get these pieces in the early 2000s, it was really frustrating as the Hogwood 3-disc-boxes were usually quite expensive, Fischer's Nimbus had some very mixed reviews and also limited availability, so I ended up getting the Naxos recordings for a few of these pieces.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on December 05, 2020, 06:27:14 AM

Quote from: Madiel on December 04, 2020, 10:49:29 PM

And then you have annoying situations like Dantone recording 78-81 to fill out a box set, meaning that 76-77 aren't available unless you plump for that entire box set, because they were only ever on an obscure BBC music magazine disc.

This is the AmazonUS listing for Hogwood's 76/77, if you're willing to pay at least US$20 and contact the sellers independent of Amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Symphonies-Nos-77-76/dp/B000IJS0U0/ref=mp_s_a_1_31

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on December 05, 2020, 01:13:29 PM

Quote from: JBS on December 05, 2020, 06:27:14 AM
This is the AmazonUS listing for Hogwood's 76/77, if you're willing to pay at least US$20 and contact the sellers independent of Amazon.
https://www.amazon.com/Haydn-Symphonies-Nos-77-76/dp/B000IJS0U0/ref=mp_s_a_1_31

As an Australian, Amazon marketplace listings are off limits to me. Because one of the largest companies in the world threw a hissy fit over Australian law and wailed about how it was all too hard. And I suspect they have rules about contacting sellers independently - plus of course you lose all the protections.

EDIT: In fact, Amazon have now changed their site so that it's literally impossible for me to see who those sellers even are. It just flat out announces that no, they're not available to me. One of the used copies is apparently available, for $27.75 plus nearly $15 shipping. It won't tell me a thing about the other copies.

eBay, on the other hand. I can do eBay. That's where I'm finding Fischer for example.

SECOND EDIT: And a number of copies of the Hogwood 76/77. Some of them not horrifying in price.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on December 05, 2020, 04:21:04 PM

Anyone heard this Op. 50 by the Quatuor Zaïde?

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/718jvPlFjDL._SS500_.jpg)

Don't recall this recording mentioned anywhere.

...OK, I found the main Amazon listing with some comments: https://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Haydn-String-Quartets-op-50/dp/B01AKA4S2K

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on December 05, 2020, 06:39:57 PM

Quote from: Madiel on December 05, 2020, 01:13:29 PM
As an Australian, Amazon marketplace listings are off limits to me. Because one of the largest companies in the world threw a hissy fit over Australian law and wailed about how it was all too hard. And I suspect they have rules about contacting sellers independently - plus of course you lose all the protections.

EDIT: In fact, Amazon have now changed their site so that it's literally impossible for me to see who those sellers even are. It just flat out announces that no, they're not available to me. One of the used copies is apparently available, for $27.75 plus nearly $15 shipping. It won't tell me a thing about the other copies.

eBay, on the other hand. I can do eBay. That's where I'm finding Fischer for example.

SECOND EDIT: And a number of copies of the Hogwood 76/77. Some of them not horrifying in price.

If Amazon doesn't sell you stuff, I don't see any reason why you should pay attention to their rules. Some MP sellers are big enough to have independent websites. In fact, the one with the listing of the cheapest copy is Half Price Books, which has indeed its own website. But the website doesn't list the Hogwood CD. (At least, not under the keyword Haydn.)
It does seem to have a few cheap copies of various Fischer subsets.

BTW that $ 27.75 copy is the most expensive one.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on December 05, 2020, 07:14:00 PM

Quote from: JBS on December 05, 2020, 06:39:57 PM
If Amazon doesn't sell you stuff, I don't see any reason why you should pay attention to their rules. Some MP sellers are big enough to have independent websites. In fact, the one with the listing of the cheapest copy is Half Price Books, which has indeed its own website. But the website doesn't list the Hogwood CD. (At least, not under the keyword Haydn.)
It does seem to have a few cheap copies of various Fischer subsets.

BTW that $ 27.75 copy is the most expensive one.

We non-americans see only the $ 27.75 copy. It doesn't show the other ones. Amazon.com serves really only Americans these days. Maybe it's Covid-19. I don't know.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on December 05, 2020, 08:09:17 PM

Quote from: JBS on December 05, 2020, 06:39:57 PM
If Amazon doesn't sell you stuff, I don't see any reason why you should pay attention to their rules. Some MP sellers are big enough to have independent websites. In fact, the one with the listing of the cheapest copy is Half Price Books, which has indeed its own website. But the website doesn't list the Hogwood CD. (At least, not under the keyword Haydn.)
It does seem to have a few cheap copies of various Fischer subsets.

BTW that $ 27.75 copy is the most expensive one.

I do go to other websites to some extent, though to be honest with American companies it can be a real challenge getting clarity as to whether they will ship to me. It varies, but some of them just don't conceive of a world outside the US and Canada.

Or... I can just eBay. Honestly, in my last big binge last year, my eBay experience was so positive and my Amazon experience was so terrible, I can see little reason to go back. Not every eBay seller is great, but there are enough great ones to make it far more reliable, not least because all of the eBay systems for getting information actually work. Half of the time on Amazon I'd just go round in circles.

Presto Classical and eBay are now my standard ports of call.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: amw on December 06, 2020, 02:26:18 AM

Quote from: Daverz on December 05, 2020, 04:21:04 PM
Anyone heard this Op. 50 by the Quatuor Zaïde?

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/718jvPlFjDL._SS500_.jpg)

Don't recall this recording mentioned anywhere.

...OK, I found the main Amazon listing with some comments: https://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Haydn-String-Quartets-op-50/dp/B01AKA4S2K

Haven't heard it, but want to. (The fact that the reviewer who gave it only 2 stars considers the Tokyo Quartet a reference recording, where I'd give the Tokyo Quartet only about 2 stars myself, makes me think I'd probably like it.)

If there are any excerpts to sample to get an idea of a particular ensemble's approach in op. 50, the slow movements of op. 50/1 and 50/3 would be the main ones, I think.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on December 06, 2020, 03:38:19 AM

Well, I just sampled Fischer in symphonies 78-81, and then Dantone in the same.

Fischer, hands down.

Dantone's orchestra just sounds a bit ugly, and also aggressive. Given that I like the Hogwood set I was surprised at this, when Dantone was kind of a supplement to Hogwood. There are things that sound like it's supposed to be Haydn's humour, but the joke is being told by a large and somewhat drunk man and everyone else in the room is shuffling uncomfortably. It feels too rough and coarse for Beethoven.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on December 06, 2020, 10:15:02 AM

Quote from: Madiel on December 06, 2020, 03:38:19 AM
Well, I just sampled Fischer in symphonies 78-81, and then Dantone in the same.

Fischer, hands down.

Dantone's orchestra just sounds a bit ugly, and also aggressive. Given that I like the Hogwood set I was surprised at this, when Dantone was kind of a supplement to Hogwood. There are things that sound like it's supposed to be Haydn's humour, but the joke is being told by a large and somewhat drunk man and everyone else in the room is shuffling uncomfortably. It feels too rough and coarse for Beethoven.

Broad generalizations are always erroneous, but as a broad generalization I think it's fair to say the difference you heard is the difference between Hogwood and Dantone throughout their repertoire.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on December 06, 2020, 12:05:28 PM

I don't think that considerations of "fit" with the older Hogwood recordings went into picking Dantone as conductor for closing that gap in the Decca Haydn set. Not sure if I have heard any conducting by Dantone, I have a few harpsichord or organ recordings (WTC II, Goldberg, Handel suites) and they are all quite good although more "liberal" than I'd expect Hogwood to play.

Fischer does have some austro-hungarian charm but his Haydn can also have a few rough spots. The most "elegant" and perfect playing is probably served by the Orpheus CO. I'd have to re-listen to add anything of value, but as above I'd recommend both Fischer and Orpheus, if one can get them at decent prices.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on December 06, 2020, 12:23:24 PM

I don't want fully elegant to the point of utter smoothness, but Dantone goes too far the other way. I'll be buying the Fischer.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on December 08, 2020, 03:52:15 PM

I am in increasing danger of wanting to go through the whole of Gurn's blog very slowly and carefully to get a proper picture of the chronology of Haydn's work.

I'm slightly terrified.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on December 08, 2020, 04:15:05 PM

Quote from: Madiel on December 08, 2020, 03:52:15 PM
I am in increasing danger of wanting to go through the whole of Gurn's blog very slowly and carefully to get a proper picture of the chronology of Haydn's work.

I'm slightly terrified.

It's a very enjoyable read. Have no fear.
ETA: meaning have no fear of anything worse than finding more recordings you might want to buy. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 08, 2020, 04:27:38 PM

Quote from: Madiel on December 08, 2020, 03:52:15 PM
I am in increasing danger of wanting to go through the whole of Gurn's blog very slowly and carefully to get a proper picture of the chronology of Haydn's work.

I'm slightly terrified.

Embrace your destiny.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on December 08, 2020, 04:47:31 PM

(https://i.postimg.cc/SNbbSrJz/Haydn-Du-Pre.jpg)

I was on a du Pre´ binge today, Gurn!
My vinyl is still very pristine for this one, even being 40+ years.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on December 08, 2020, 05:46:33 PM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 08, 2020, 04:27:38 PM
Embrace your destiny.

Current phase of destiny: await op.33 Mosaiques in the mail, buy Fischer symphonies box to fill the gap and then get the Beaux Arts piano trios. Plus a flute option for the 3 flute trios.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vandermolen on December 08, 2020, 11:46:23 PM

I've been enjoying symphony 104 'London'. The majestic opening took me totally by surprise. This and 'Hornsignal' have been my favourites of the two Mackerras recordings with the Orchestra of St Luke's on Telarc:
(//)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on December 09, 2020, 01:02:08 AM

It is probably too general a feature to count as imitation or inspiration but both the introduction of Beethoven's 2nd symphony and the first forte passage/main theme of his 9th seem to echo the majestic d minor intro of Haydn's 104 (and then later you also have Bruckner with similar gestures in abundance).
Very impressive for me is how Haydn takes the most trivial part of the main theme of the first movement (ta-ta-ta-ta-taa-taam) as main material for the development. Making something from almost nothing is often mentioned in context with Beethoven but Haydn was already a master of this. And in the slow movement it is impressive how the seemingly simple, songlike theme gives rise to sublime and serious music in the course of the movement (again a particularly strong instance of something Haydn does very frequently in his mature music).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Biffo on December 09, 2020, 01:18:34 AM

I have also been splurging on Haydn.

Several years ago there was a seller on ebay who sold broken-up Brilliant boxes. I managed to buy most of the Fischer/AHHO cycle of symphonies except for a gap in the middle - Nos 30 - 51. Over the years I sporadically managed to fill a few gaps but not many. As a result of this thread I was prompted to buy a couple of boxes (on Nimbus) to fill the gaps. Nos 40-54 arrived yesterday, Nos 21-39, A&B is on its way. There is some overlap with what I have already but it is a cost efficient way of plugging the gap.

I have also bought the Mackerras/St Luke's album with Nos 100, 101, 103 & 104 so I have plenty of Haydn symphonies to listen for a while. After that I think I will explore the String Quartets further.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DaveF on December 09, 2020, 03:39:32 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on December 09, 2020, 01:02:08 AM
It is probably too general a feature to count as imitation or inspiration but both the introduction of Beethoven's 2nd symphony and the first forte passage/main theme of his 9th seem to echo the majestic d minor intro of Haydn's 104 (and then later you also have Bruckner with similar gestures in abundance).
Very impressive for me is how Haydn takes the most trivial part of the main theme of the first movement (ta-ta-ta-ta-taa-taam) as main material for the development. Making something from almost nothing is often mentioned in context with Beethoven but Haydn was already a master of this. And in the slow movement it is impressive how the seemingly simple, songlike theme gives rise to sublime and serious music in the course of the movement (again a particularly strong instance of something Haydn does very frequently in his mature music).

I'd be interested to hear what others think about this, but the development passage you mention in 104, where those 6 unremarkable notes are transformed in every imaginable way, strikes me as being completely beyond anything that Mozart ever achieved in his developments...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on December 09, 2020, 04:55:06 AM

Mozart had a rather different style. He would more often go for contrapuntally involved passages in developments rather than for "motivic development". In this respect Beethoven seems much closer to Haydn. (It's a slightly more involved theme but the way the first mvmt of the "fifth" quartet 76#2 is obsessively dominated by that main motive seems close to Beethoven's 5th symphony, and of course Haydn already had a theme rhythmically somewhat similar to Beethoven's in op.50#4 f# minor)

The few movements where Mozart seems Haydnesque are in the chamber music, I'd say. E.g. the main theme of the first movement of his D major quintet K 593 seems to take the "bottom half" of Haydn's Lark quartet (i.e. without the lark) which is rather minimalist for Mozart. (But then the cooler thing here is probably the entanglement of introduction and main part, similarly to Haydn's (later) symphony 103.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on December 09, 2020, 04:49:04 PM

Looks like we will soon be able to compare Op. 76 recordings from LHQ and Chiaroscuro...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on December 09, 2020, 06:41:55 PM

For those that swing that way.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on December 22, 2020, 03:50:22 AM

I think I've found the op.55 quartets that I want (Panocha). But having trouble with an op.54 to go with it.

Any suggestions of ones to try?

EDIT: I'm thinking the Ysaye has potential.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on December 22, 2020, 05:47:19 AM

Quote from: Madiel on December 22, 2020, 03:50:22 AM
I think I've found the op.55 quartets that I want (Panocha). But having trouble with an op.54 to go with it.

Any suggestions of ones to try?

EDIT: I'm thinking the Ysaye has potential.

The Endellion quartet did a one-off of Op. 54. It then got coupled with Op. 74 in the reissue.

https://www.amazon.com/Franz-Josef-Haydn-String-Quartets/dp/B00000DP3R
https://www.amazon.com/String-Quartets-Joseph-Haydn/dp/B00000632D

The Juilliard also did a one-off of Op. 54. It's been a while since I listened to it, but I recall the sound as a bit tinny. Too bad I don't have a bass control. Except for downloads or LP, it's only available in their Epic box:

https://www.amazon.com/Juilliard-String-Quartet-Complete-Recordings/dp/B0776K3MPJ
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8422664--haydn-three-quartets-op-54-remastered

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on December 22, 2020, 07:06:20 AM

The Juilliard is my favorite, so since I got the Epic box a month or two ago (I used to have a grey LP transfer from the internet years ago), I am not really looking for more. The Endellion is quite good but not sticking out as extraordinary (if Madiel wasn't living with the Antipodes, I'll let him have my copy for postage). I have read very good things about the Ysaye but not heard it (and probably won't). I also find op.54/55 is among the better Amadeus Q Haydn but probably not enough to justify getting one of their Haydn boxes. op.54/1 is somewhat frequently found on anthologies (e.g. Emerson, Schuppanzigh) but this does not help here.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on December 22, 2020, 01:13:51 PM

Thanks folks.

The Juillliard is indeed rather tinny sounding, and I don't love the effect in fast music. And yes, it also appears that on CD (my preferred format) it's only available if you get that larger box.

The Endellion sounds a bit more in my wheelhouse, I think I might line it up against the Ysaye and see which I prefer.

The Amadeus... I don't know, there's something about the intonation that feels a trifle off to me. I'm not really warming to the tone at any rate.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brass Hole on December 22, 2020, 01:17:15 PM

Quote from: Madiel on December 22, 2020, 01:13:51 PM
Thanks folks.

The Juillliard is indeed rather tinny sounding, and I don't love the effect in fast music. And yes, it also appears that on CD (my preferred format) it's only available if you get that larger box.

The Endellion sounds a bit more in my wheelhouse, I think I might line it up against the Ysaye and see which I prefer.

The Amadeus... I don't know, there's something about the intonation that feels a trifle off to me. I'm not really warming to the tone at any rate.

If not HIP, ~~The Lindsays or Kodaly~~ should do in Op 54/55.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on December 22, 2020, 02:29:15 PM

Quote from: Madiel on December 22, 2020, 01:13:51 PM
Thanks folks.

The Juillliard is indeed rather tinny sounding, and I don't love the effect in fast music. And yes, it also appears that on CD (my preferred format) it's only available if you get that larger box.

The Endellion sounds a bit more in my wheelhouse, I think I might line it up against the Ysaye and see which I prefer.

The Amadeus... I don't know, there's something about the intonation that feels a trifle off to me. I'm not really warming to the tone at any rate.

Perhaps the Endellion were a bigger deal back when there was much less choice on CD. There's also the Auryn, which is vol. 8 in their series. It's still on my notional to-listen pile. Unfortunately, no cheap used copies like the Endellion.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on December 22, 2020, 03:54:14 PM

The Kodaly are... nice, but in some movements that's all they are, with no energy to the music. I'm very fond of their op.76 but some reviews suggest op.54 isn't their best.

First impression of the Lindsays playing is fine, but the acoustic is somewhat recessed. I saw a comment about this last night and I have to agree. It sounds very much like they're in a hall, which of course makes sense for a concert but for home listening it's not my preference.

The Auryn are a little smoother, borderline whether they're too much so, but the bigger taste issue for me is it's a very echoing acoustic.

Honours are currently split between Endellion and Ysaye rather closely on preview samples. The Endellion sound better to me in op.54/1, the Ysaye sound better in certain movements in nos 2 and 3, but it's fairly marginal. It might come down to price/availability.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on December 22, 2020, 04:08:46 PM

Quote from: Madiel on December 22, 2020, 03:54:14 PM
The Kodaly are... nice, but in some movements that's all they are, with no energy to the music. I'm very fond of their op.76 but some reviews suggest op.54 isn't their best.t's fairly marginal. It might come down to price/availability.

Fuck some reviews... It's all up to your and only taste!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on December 22, 2020, 04:13:35 PM

Quote from: Florestan on December 22, 2020, 04:08:46 PM
Fuck some reviews... It's all up to your and only taste!

Unlike some other people here, I can both look at reviews AND make my own assessments.

Honestly, I don't know why people treat reviewers as either gods or monsters. They're neither. The notion that they have nothing of value to say and expertise doesn't exist is just as wrong as the notion that reviews are determinative.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on December 22, 2020, 04:15:02 PM

Quote from: Madiel on December 22, 2020, 04:13:35 PM
I don't know why people treat reviewers as either gods or monsters. They're neither.

Agreed,

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on December 22, 2020, 04:19:37 PM

Quote from: Florestan on December 22, 2020, 04:15:02 PM
Agreed,

Right. So let me combine my own assessment of Kodaly op.54 from listening to it this morning with the fact that other people who (like me) enjoy the Kodaly op.76 also (like me on initial hearing) don't enjoy the Kodaly op.54 so much.

EDIT: It's not as if I'm beholden to reviews. If you look for reviews of Haydn op.54 you're liable to keep finding reviews about the London Haydn Quartet- many of them enthusiastic. But (like Classics Today as it happens) I find their sound horrible.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on December 22, 2020, 04:24:31 PM

Quote from: Madiel on December 22, 2020, 04:19:37 PM
Right. So let me combine my own assessment of Kodaly op.54 from listening to it this morning with the fact that other people who (like me) enjoy the Kodaly op.76 also (like me on initial hearing) don't enjoy the Kodaly op.54 so much.

I very much enjoy the Kodalyi's.

:D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: staxomega on December 22, 2020, 05:02:07 PM

Quote from: Madiel on December 22, 2020, 03:54:14 PM
The Kodaly are... nice, but in some movements that's all they are, with no energy to the music. I'm very fond of their op.76 but some reviews suggest op.54 isn't their best.

First impression of the Lindsays playing is fine, but the acoustic is somewhat recessed. I saw a comment about this last night and I have to agree. It sounds very much like they're in a hall, which of course makes sense for a concert but for home listening it's not my preference.

The Auryn are a little smoother, borderline whether they're too much so, but the bigger taste issue for me is it's a very echoing acoustic.

Honours are currently split between Endellion and Ysaye rather closely on preview samples. The Endellion sound better to me in op.54/1, the Ysaye sound better in certain movements in nos 2 and 3, but it's fairly marginal. It might come down to price/availability.

Do you hear any intonation issues with The Lindsays? Going from memory (not the most reliable) I thought that's why I haven't listened to their Haydn in many years aside from Seven Last Words of Christ as their performance of that is unlike anyone else.

I don't hear any echoing acoustic on Auryn other than the recording not being completely dry, there is the occasional resonance from the cello when he is playing with more vigor. Otherwise sounds like well balanced engineering to me, coming from someone that strongly dislikes resonant acoustics but will put up with it if the performances are great.

I've been listening to Schneider Quartet's incomplete cycle these last couple of weeks, I'll have to formulate my thoughts on this. So far quite enjoyable.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on December 22, 2020, 05:12:23 PM

Quote from: hvbias on December 22, 2020, 05:02:07 PM
Do you hear any intonation issues with The Lindsays? Going from memory (not the most reliable) I thought that's why I haven't listened to their Haydn in many years aside from Seven Last Words for Christ as their performance of that is unlike anyone else.

I don't hear any echoing acoustic on Auryn other than the recording not being completely dry, there is the occasional resonance from the cello when he is playing with more vigor. Otherwise sounds like well balanced engineering to me, coming from someone that strongly dislikes resonant acoustics but will put up with it if the performances are great.

I've been listening to Schneider Quartet's incomplete cycle these last couple of weeks, I'll have to formulate my thoughts on this. So far quite enjoyable.

I didn't listen to a huge amount of the Lindsays, I think they have a somewhat 'rough' style that would have let me accept a bit of intonation anyway. I don't recall hearing anything in that regard that bothered me, but I'm aware of some people commenting on it.

Re the Auryn: it might well depend on what equipment different people are listening on. But to me, there were samples where it felt too resonant for my tastes and it was blurring things just a little.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on December 22, 2020, 06:48:31 PM

Quote from: Madiel on December 22, 2020, 03:54:14 PM
The Kodaly are... nice, but in some movements that's all they are, with no energy to the music. I'm very fond of their op.76 but some reviews suggest op.54 isn't their best.

First impression of the Lindsays playing is fine, but the acoustic is somewhat recessed. I saw a comment about this last night and I have to agree. It sounds very much like they're in a hall, which of course makes sense for a concert but for home listening it's not my preference.

The Auryn are a little smoother, borderline whether they're too much so, but the bigger taste issue for me is it's a very echoing acoustic.

Honours are currently split between Endellion and Ysaye rather closely on preview samples. The Endellion sound better to me in op.54/1, the Ysaye sound better in certain movements in nos 2 and 3, but it's fairly marginal. It might come down to price/availability.

In talking about the Lindsays, bear in mind that there is a 4 CD set from them of live Haydn recordings.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/510eiuuGizL.jpg)
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51cDApFOOgL.jpg)
I overall like it but there is some rough intonation in places.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on December 22, 2020, 07:50:49 PM

Listening to the Auryn's Op. 54 with Sennheiser HD-650 headphones, the resonance does not seem excessive to me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on December 22, 2020, 08:00:11 PM

Quote from: Daverz on December 22, 2020, 07:50:49 PM
Listening to the Auryn's Op. 54 with Sennheiser HD-650 headphones, the resonance does not seem excessive to me.

Then continue to enjoy your listening.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on December 22, 2020, 08:13:53 PM

Quote from: Madiel on December 22, 2020, 08:00:11 PM
Then continue to enjoy your listening.

I mention the headphones because they may have a tendency to "dry" things out a bit, and to give a reference point for playback, not to supersede anyone else's observations.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on December 22, 2020, 08:43:21 PM

Quote from: Daverz on December 22, 2020, 08:13:53 PM
I mention the headphones because they may have a tendency to "dry" things out a bit, and to give a reference point for playback, not to supersede anyone else's observations.

It is definitely true that different equipment will give different experiences.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brass Hole on December 22, 2020, 10:08:46 PM

Quote from: Madiel on December 22, 2020, 04:19:37 PM
If you look for reviews of Haydn op.54 you're liable to keep finding reviews about the London Haydn Quartet- many of them enthusiastic. But (like Classics Today as it happens) I find their sound horrible.

Knowing this would have prevented me from recommending any Haydn to you anyway :). Good luck.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on December 22, 2020, 11:37:53 PM

The Juilliard is redorded extremely dry and direct like most of their recordings from the time. Certainly not for everyone and there is also music where I find it rather unpleasant but the energy of this particular recording is irrestible to me.
Auryn should always be a very good option, they are too expensive for me and while very good I didn't find them special enough to shell out for more than two volumes (17 and 33, and I accidentally also have their older op.71).

op.54 (and 55) seems a very diverse and varied collection. op.54#1 is one of the most extrovert and virtuoso pieces, the most popular of the bunch, I think. #2 was singled out by Hurwitz as the most daring Haydn quartet which is only a little exaggerated. In any case it is very unusual with the slow finale and the gypsy solo in the slow movement and also the tight connection of the inner movements (although Haydn did this already in op.20#2). #3 is the most "regular" without obvious "special effects". They are hard pieces to make completely boring but that doesn't mean it is easy to make them their best.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Camphy on December 23, 2020, 07:07:38 AM

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk4Mzg4OS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MjYwNzQ4NzJ9)

This was mentioned a few pages back. It might be worth sampling. I was also thinking of the Leipzig Quartet, but it seems like they haven't recorded Op. 54 yet.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on December 23, 2020, 08:33:58 AM

Quote from: Camphy on December 23, 2020, 07:07:38 AM
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk4Mzg4OS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6MzAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MjYwNzQ4NzJ9)

This was mentioned a few pages back. It might be worth sampling. I was also thinking of the Leipzig Quartet, but it seems they haven't recorded Op. 54 yet.

Hmmm, Amazon says "Haydn: String Quartets Op.54 by Sacconi Quartet
Quatuor Ysaÿe". That's not confusing. And it's yours for only $969 plus $3.99 shipping.

Europadisc confirms that it's the Sacconi Quartet and will sell it to you for $12.61.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on December 23, 2020, 02:37:56 PM

I did listen to the Sacconi at some point, not bad though perhaps they throw in some harsh accents.

I've discovered I can probably get the Endellion op.54 on its own, for a fair bit cheaper than the 2CD combination of opp.54 & 74.

So I'm currently resampling my existing op.74 of Kodaly... which to my ears has far more energy and sparkle than Kodaly's op.54. I'm not inclined to think I really need an alternative. Although who knows, it could just be about what I ate for breakfast and the weather.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: staxomega on December 24, 2020, 03:09:15 PM

Quote from: Daverz on December 22, 2020, 07:50:49 PM
Listening to the Auryn's Op. 54 with Sennheiser HD-650 headphones, the resonance does not seem excessive to me.

That is what I use for headphones as well, after down grading from a Stax SR-009 system since I wasn't using it much. Quad ESL57 or Harbeth SHL5 for speakers. At least for me overly resonant recordings are more annoying on headphones than on speakers. Like one particular pianist that recorded truly exceptional Chopin Nocturnes and Mazurkas, both recordings are resonant so I pretty much never listen to them on headphones.

Back to Haydn, I've now caught up on Hurwitz's "Haydn Symphony Schlep", of all his videos his ones on Haydn are the most interesting to me as he knows the music very well and has quite the enthusiasm for them. And finally getting Dorati's cycle, I don't know why I avoided Dorati or never even bothered sampling it in the past... it's Dorati, he wasn't going to drag his feet in Haydn ala Bohm or Karajan! I think too much average to below average non-HIP in the symphonies just had me burned out on wanting to hear more. But this has the verticalness and pacing of my favorite HIP performances with more meat.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on January 02, 2021, 01:53:03 PM

Gurn - confirmed recording date for the Haydn piece? (the Hoffmeister is from 1968.)

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKZjnwYf/Haydn-HV-XVIII.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 02, 2021, 02:30:17 PM

Quote from: Scion7 on January 02, 2021, 01:53:03 PM
Gurn - confirmed recording date for the Haydn piece? (the Hoffmeister is from 1968.)

(https://i.postimg.cc/ZKZjnwYf/Haydn-HV-XVIII.jpg)

No, sorry. I haven't heard any as old as that. My own oldest is Koopman on Philips from ca. 1980. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on January 02, 2021, 02:56:15 PM

<-- Hungarian Union of the Danube hegemony 2022

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 02, 2021, 02:30:17 PM
No, sorry. I haven't heard any as old as that. My own oldest is Koopman on Philips from ca. 1980.

I thought you were maintaining the world's largest online Haydn recording database? ???
I'm shocked and depressed more than Cromwell not finishing the job ... le sigh. :-[ :-X :P

www.republic.org.uk

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 02, 2021, 04:05:18 PM

Quote from: Scion7 on January 02, 2021, 02:56:15 PM
<-- Hungarian Union of the Danube hegemony 2022

I thought you were maintaining the world's largest online Haydn recording database? ???
I'm shocked and depressed more than Cromwell not finishing the job ... le sigh. :-[ :-X :P

www.republic.org.uk

I only have period instrument recordings. At that, I do have pretty much all of them, although I'm sure there is one or two here and there that I've missed. I have very few modern instruments, and I haven't done any research on them. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 22, 2021, 07:02:53 AM

For the glancing reference:

Review: Danish String Quartet serves up Nordic treats along with Mozart (https://www.earrelevant.net/2021/02/review-danish-string-quartet-serves-up-nordic-treats-along-with-mozart/)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on February 22, 2021, 12:39:25 PM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 22, 2021, 07:02:53 AM
For the glancing reference:

Review: Danish String Quartet serves up Nordic treats along with Mozart (https://www.earrelevant.net/2021/02/review-danish-string-quartet-serves-up-nordic-treats-along-with-mozart/)

Recorded in Copenhagen... reviewed by a Bostonian... for a southern audience. My head is spinning!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 22, 2021, 12:44:51 PM

Quote from: DavidW on February 22, 2021, 12:39:25 PM
Recorded in Copenhagen... reviewed by a Bostonian... for a southern audience. My head is spinning!

Take 'er easy!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on February 22, 2021, 06:06:33 PM

Quote from: Florestan on December 22, 2020, 04:24:31 PM
I very much enjoy the Kodalyi's.

:D

I suspect if the Kodaly's were on some obscure, expensive label they'd get more respect.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 22, 2021, 07:27:47 PM

Quote from: Daverz on February 22, 2021, 06:06:33 PM
I suspect if the Kodaly's were on some obscure, expensive label they'd get more respect.

Something in that, of course!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on July 20, 2021, 07:04:49 AM

The Heidelberg Symphony has appointed Johannes Klumpp successor to Thomas Fey and will soon be releasing Klumpp's first installment in the Haydn symphony cycle. Additionally, the Fey biography on their website now says in bold text that Fey will be permanently unable to return to music. :(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on July 20, 2021, 08:06:24 AM

That is sad, and also not entirely a surprise.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 20, 2021, 08:17:25 AM

Quote from: Brian on July 20, 2021, 07:04:49 AM
The Heidelberg Symphony has appointed Johannes Klumpp successor to Thomas Fey and will soon be releasing Klumpp's first installment in the Haydn symphony cycle. Additionally, the Fey biography on their website now says in bold text that Fey will be permanently unable to return to music. :(

Alas!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 27, 2021, 06:37:54 PM

My eybrow curls upward in a meaning way when I reas the name Haydn in an unusual context. I'm reading Backwards Into the Future: The Recorded History of The Firesign Theatre. (I've dipped into it haphazardly for a few years, but now I'm reading it properly, and early in the chapter dedicated to Sagittarian Peter Bergman what should I read but:

It was at Yale in the early 60s Bergman's talents in politics and performance began to emerge. He had written the lyrics for several musical productions While a member of the Dramat, Tom Jones, Booth Is Back in Town, and also adapted and translated lyrics for the newly-discovered Haydn opera, House of Fire ....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 28, 2021, 05:56:47 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on July 27, 2021, 06:37:54 PM
My eybrow curls upward in a meaning way when I reas the name Haydn in an unusual context. I'm reading Backwards Into the Future: The Recorded History of The Firesign Theatre. (I've dipped into it haphazardly for a few years, but now I'm reading it properly, and early in the chapter dedicated to Sagittarian Peter Bergman what should I read but:

It was at Yale in the early 60s Bergman's talents in politics and performance began to emerge. He had written the lyrics for several musical productions While a member of the Dramat, Tom Jones, Booth Is Back in Town, and also adapted and translated lyrics for the newly-discovered Haydn opera, House of Fire ....

Ah, Die feuersbrunst, marionette opera extraordinaire! That's actually a really interesting tidbit, given that it is a Hanswurst story which could easily serve as a Firesign blueprint. I wonder if, when all is said and done, if Haydn was responsible for "uh, Clem...". 🤔😜

🤠😎

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 28, 2021, 08:07:23 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 28, 2021, 05:56:47 AM
Ah, Die feuersbrunst, marionette opera extraordinaire! That's actually a really interesting tidbit, given that it is a Hanswurst story which could easily serve as a Firesign blueprint. I wonder if, when all is said and done, if Haydn was responsible for "uh, Clem...". 🤔😜

🤠😎

Pablo, he broke the President!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on July 29, 2021, 06:15:28 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on July 28, 2021, 05:56:47 AM
Ah, Die feuersbrunst, marionette opera extraordinaire!

Of which there are two recordings.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81PtKqNFoRL._SS500_.jpg)(https://media.cdr.nl/COVER/MEDIUM/FRONT/DCX1730/Die-Feuerbrunst.jpg)

The Spering is complete with dialogues (2 CDs), the Koten has only the sung parts (1CD) and is included in the mammoth Brilliant Classics edition.

I listened to Spering only and remember liking it a lot. Marvelous music.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on July 29, 2021, 10:27:42 AM

Quote from: Florestan on July 29, 2021, 06:15:28 AM
Of which there are two recordings.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81PtKqNFoRL._SS500_.jpg)(https://media.cdr.nl/COVER/MEDIUM/FRONT/DCX1730/Die-Feuerbrunst.jpg)

The Spering is complete with dialogues (2 CDs), the Koten has only the sung parts (1CD) and is included in the mammoth Brilliant Classics edition.

I listened to Spering only and remember liking it a lot. Marvelous music.

Yes, I have the Spering, very nicely played and sung. I have a hard time following singspiels, they talk too fast for me, to be honest, but I think it's interesting to hear (and follow along with) the production. I wouldn't object to that Koten production either.

(https://i.imgur.com/Jc7RV3L.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/LG7zr4Q.jpg)

I have a similar situation with 'Philemon & Baucis' (another singspiel) where the Huss is a full production but the Brunner is only the music. I listen to both whenever the whim overtakes me. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 18, 2021, 01:24:28 PM

BOY - have not pulled out my Papa Haydn in a while, but am now spending the afternoon on the recordings shown below (not ALL of the Huss box) - the lira organizzata has always been a fascination - below from the listening thread, maybe to get a discussion of yet another side of the multi-faceted Joe Haydn! :laugh: Dave

QuoteHaydn, Joseph - Music Prince Esterhazy & King of Naples - listening to the first 2 CDs top row, i.e. Notturni, all eight works w/ Mozzafiato/L'Archibudelli and Ensemble Baroque de Limoges/Quatuor Mosaiques doing baryton octets, notturni, & lira organizzata works - the two lira copies from the booklet shown - checkout Gurn's Haydn Seek HERE (https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2015/04/1786-the-music-part-2-.html) for a more thorough description of this hybrid hurdy-gurdy/organ. Now there are many other recordings of these lira works but virtually all use wind combinations as substitutes; Klocker does 6 of the Notturni w/ his group. One of the best collections is the 6-disc w/ Manfred Huss and the Haydn Sinfonietta Wien. Dave :)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/61Ga9Gibz7L.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Pzw-Cd83L.jpg) (https://www.fjhaydn.com/.a/6a019103645166970c01bb0823f75e970d-500wi)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71eOMvaWtML._SL1070_.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41i536nTTJL.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/415ocBJ-1ZL.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 18, 2021, 01:40:49 PM

Lira Organizzata vs. Alternate Organs vs. Flute/Oboe Transcriptions for Haydn's works particularly for the King of Naples, Ferdinand IV - just looking at what else was in my collection of these unusual pieces - the Klocker recording of the Notturni (just 5 of 8 as he explains in his notes) includes the addition of two 'organs' (described as 'positive' and as 'barrel' - from the notes appear to be choir organs by Karl Schuke Organ Co., Berlin w/ the stops set to mimic the lira sound?) - I also have an MP3 DL of all 5 'Lyra Concerti' w/ Hugo Ruf on a 'lyra' - last pic shown from an LP cover - listening to the burned CD-R at the moment and really like the sound for a 1966 recording. Not sure what new is out there for lira music - 8) Dave

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71eOMvaWtML._SL1070_.jpg) (https://img.discogs.com/V6I7bbd6u14D-MbFK1gCIwoYRZE=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-4075480-1354403084-6457.jpeg.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-pBXvd8b/0/88d8188f/O/Haydn_Lira_Wuf.png)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 18, 2021, 02:07:58 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on August 18, 2021, 01:40:49 PM
Lira Organizzata vs. Alternate Organs vs. Flute/Oboe Transcriptions for Haydn's works particularly for the King of Naples, Ferdinand IV - just looking at what else was in my collection of these unusual pieces - the Klocker recording of the Notturni (just 5 of 8 as he explains in his notes) includes the addition of two 'organs' (described as 'positive' and as 'barrel' - from the notes appear to be choir organs by Karl Schuke Organ Co., Berlin w/ the stops set to mimic the lira sound?) - I also have an MP3 DL of all 5 'Lyra Concerti' w/ Hugo Ruf on a 'lyra' - last pic shown from an LP cover - listening to the burned CD-R at the moment and really like the sound for a 1966 recording. Not sure what new is out there for lira music - 8) Dave

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/71eOMvaWtML._SL1070_.jpg) (https://img.discogs.com/V6I7bbd6u14D-MbFK1gCIwoYRZE=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-4075480-1354403084-6457.jpeg.jpg) (https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-pBXvd8b/0/88d8188f/O/Haydn_Lira_Wuf.png)

Hey, Dave, well there isn't much new, Warchal on cpo didn't make your list, they are the London arrangements of all the notturnos, on modern instruments.
(https://i.imgur.com/14fAC9D.jpg)

Note that the instrumentation between the original Naples versions and the London arrangements differ by more than just replacing the lira with the oboe and flute. Almost all the recordings available use the London version. But these are some nice recordings I don't see on your list:

(https://i.imgur.com/mwxjBxK.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/GdD4x7L.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Pzb4gM6.jpg)(https://i.imgur.com/RQcAL0e.jpg)

The first 2 have a mix of Naples versions and London versions, both notturni and concerti. Period instruments. The Huss 'King of Naples box (you can get the original Koch/Schwann disks separately, but probably take you 10 years a a few hundred dollars by now) are period instruments, of course, but perhaps surprisingly they are also all London arrangements, no Naples ones.

The last one, the Solstice ensemble, is also PI, and also London. Only certain concerti and notturni were actually arranged by Haydn, and they are the ones on this disk, which I love that they put some thought into it.

What I like about the Klocker is that he uses the original Naples arrangements. It may be self-serving, since they use clarinet(s) while the London ones don't, but I don't care for his reasons, just glad he did it. I think the organ positif sounds great too. Otherwise, modern instruments, sad to say.

The Ruf also uses modern instruments, but he uses an allegedly real lira for that part and the concertos sound good.

(https://i.imgur.com/zu4BCC9.jpg)

Of course, can't forget L'Archibudelli, my favorite band. They play all the notturni on PI, but they are the London arrangements too. Certainly a heap of entertainment, but I would sure love it if someone would record all 5 concerti and all 8 notturni in their original Naples arrangements on period instruments or reproductions. I thought Limoges would do it, but so far they have left a lot undone. :'(

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: André on August 18, 2021, 03:40:12 PM

The Nocturnes do sound quite different depending on the version (orchestration, PI or MI) chosen. The most beguiling and characterful I know is this one:

(https://img.discogs.com/y3kQOf4dA4JEPA62SWE05GXiWUI=/fit-in/400x393/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-5078958-1386492809-9124.jpeg.jpg)

Originally released on L'Oiseau-Lyre LPs:

(https://img.discogs.com/Fawgdpi-pvPvrzho7EQ2jImFGs4=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-5216036-1580925519-9543.jpeg.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 18, 2021, 03:46:11 PM

Thanks Gurn & André - looks like I have a couple more considerations! ;D Dave

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 18, 2021, 06:10:56 PM

Quote from: André on August 18, 2021, 03:40:12 PM
The Nocturnes do sound quite different depending on the version (orchestration, PI or MI) chosen. The most beguiling and characterful I know is this one:

(https://img.discogs.com/y3kQOf4dA4JEPA62SWE05GXiWUI=/fit-in/400x393/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-5078958-1386492809-9124.jpeg.jpg)

Originally released on L'Oiseau-Lyre LPs:

(https://img.discogs.com/Fawgdpi-pvPvrzho7EQ2jImFGs4=/fit-in/600x600/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-5216036-1580925519-9543.jpeg.jpg)

Absolutely, that is an excellent, the notturni have been treated well in the last few decades. The only aspect not well served is definitely the Naples (original) versions. Hope that gets remediated soon! 😧

🤠😎

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 18, 2021, 06:15:36 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on August 18, 2021, 03:46:11 PM
Thanks Gurn & André - looks like I have a couple more considerations! ;D Dave

I would hold out and leverage my buying power to force them to record a modern version that meets all my criteria. Well, maybe not...🤔

🤠😎

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on August 18, 2021, 11:48:18 PM

With the ominous lira organizzata I only have the "deLirium" disc which is nice, but does not have enough of this odd instrument.
Despite the organ positive not quite matching that sound, I find that the Klöcker/cpo disc has a far more interesting and fascitating sound than the later arrangements with flute/oboe that lose the special sound character.
It's probably my favorite disc of any divertimento-like stuff by Haydn, of course it helps that muscially the Notturni are comparably late works.
Haydn took no less than three movements from the lyra concerti and notturni and expanded them into symphony movements (#89,2+4 and #100,2)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 19, 2021, 07:00:09 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on August 18, 2021, 03:46:11 PM
Thanks Gurn & André - looks like I have a couple more considerations! ;D Dave

Gurn & André - of all of the images posted by me and you two, I own most except for the ones shown below - the first two interest me the most and are on Amazon USA as 'used' offers; cannot find the third choice there and the last one w/ mixed composers is outrageously priced. If I had to add just one to my collection, Hacker would probably be my choice (own 3 of this other recordings) followed by Warchal - I'll look around the web today and at some download sites. Of course, none of the two I want have lira(s) - SO, a 'new' version of the Nottuni + Concertos (guess 3 discs) using Haydn's original Napoli edition(s) w/ lira would be quite nice - now 'genie' for my next wish - :laugh: Dave

(https://i.imgur.com/14fAC9D.jpg) (https://img.discogs.com/y3kQOf4dA4JEPA62SWE05GXiWUI=/fit-in/400x393/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-5078958-1386492809-9124.jpeg.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/Pzb4gM6.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/GdD4x7L.jpg)

ADDENDUM: just found this 3-disc set on Apple Music; $30 MP3 DL on PrestoClassical, BUT is available for me to stream (along w/ the Warchal but not Hacker) on Spotify. In the Thomas Indermùhle recording, oboe/flute are substituted for the lira, so not much different than the 6-disc Huss box? But it is now a Spotify playlist - will listen later.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-WqHSBC7/0/205ffc30/O/Haydn_Lira_Inderm%C3%BChle.png)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: André on August 19, 2021, 08:13:20 AM

Hi Dave ! Of those you show I only know the Hacker version (as well as the Archibudelli, Huss and Consortium Classicum ones - and the Delirium disc). It may be oldish, but I just love its bubbly, unpretentious, gemütlich deportment.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 19, 2021, 09:06:18 AM

Quote from: André on August 19, 2021, 08:13:20 AM
Hi Dave ! Of those you show I only know the Hacker version (as well as the Archibudelli, Huss and Consortium Classicum ones - and the Delirium disc). It may be oldish, but I just love its bubbly, unpretentious, gemütlich deportment.

Thanks André - I just ordered a 'used' copy of Hacker for $6 (w/ some credit) from the Amazon MP - said condition 'very good'; arrives next week early, so will hope and see - I've enjoyed him a lot in other recordings in my collection. Also now listening to the Thomas Indermühle recording on Spotify (to my den stereo) - quite delightful w/ the oboe/flute as lira substitutes - believe I may have enough options for these works! ::) :laugh: Dave

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2021, 12:47:47 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on August 19, 2021, 07:00:09 AM
Gurn & André - of all of the images posted by me and you two, I own most except for the ones shown below - the first two interest me the most and are on Amazon USA as 'used' offers; cannot find the third choice there and the last one w/ mixed composers is outrageously priced. If I had to add just one to my collection, Hacker would probably be my choice (own 3 of this other recordings) followed by Warchal - I'll look around the web today and at some download sites. Of course, none of the two I want have lira(s) - SO, a 'new' version of the Nottuni + Concertos (guess 3 discs) using Haydn's original Napoli edition(s) w/ lira would be quite nice - now 'genie' for my next wish - :laugh: Dave

(https://i.imgur.com/14fAC9D.jpg) (https://img.discogs.com/y3kQOf4dA4JEPA62SWE05GXiWUI=/fit-in/400x393/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-5078958-1386492809-9124.jpeg.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/Pzb4gM6.jpg) (https://i.imgur.com/GdD4x7L.jpg)

ADDENDUM: just found this 3-disc set on Apple Music; $30 MP3 DL on PrestoClassical, BUT is available for me to stream (along w/ the Warchal but not Hacker) on Spotify. In the Thomas Indermùhle recording, oboe/flute are substituted for the lira, so not much different than the 6-disc Huss box? But it is now a Spotify playlist - will listen later.

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-WqHSBC7/0/205ffc30/O/Haydn_Lira_Inderm%C3%BChle.png)

That one is new to me, Dave, but yes, it is clearly the London arrangements, don't know if it is period or modern though. That Huss has a whole lot of stuff other than the notturni and concerti though, so it isn't an actual comparison.

if I were choosing between those disks, I would take Hacker and Solstice Ensemble, not least because I already know Solstice is very nice indeed, and that Warchal is on modern instruments, which the London arrangements on modern instruments is not what I want from life, but hey, that's just me. :)

If you get that other (Indermühle) let me know how it works for you. Also, if it is on period instruments. If you are interested in more background material on these works, I'll post links to my essays about them. I did a lot of research at the time.

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 19, 2021, 01:45:23 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2021, 12:47:47 PM
That one is new to me, Dave, but yes, it is clearly the London arrangements, don't know if it is period or modern though. That Huss has a whole lot of stuff other than the notturni and concerti though, so it isn't an actual comparison.

if I were choosing between those disks, I would take Hacker and Solstice Ensemble, not least because I already know Solstice is very nice indeed, and that Warchal is on modern instruments, which the London arrangements on modern instruments is not what I want from life, but hey, that's just me. :)

If you get that other (Indermühle) let me know how it works for you. Also, if it is on period instruments. If you are interested in more background material on these works, I'll post links to my essays about them. I did a lot of research at the time.

8)

Hi Gurn - I listened to the entire Indermühle/Camerata Schultz recordings from Spotify this afternoon and enjoyed but sounds like MIs to me - I cannot find reviews/booklet notes/or other info on this production; the company is Camerata out of Japan HERE (http://www.camerata.co.jp/english/) but the website is poorly organized, however, there is an 'info' email address, if they respond to questions? Below is a pic from PrestoMusic offering a $30 MP3 DL only - the works include the 5 Lira Concerti & the 8 Notturni - my comparison to the Huss box was meant to state that discs 4-6 contained the same works w/ flute/oboe also used - not sure about the arrangements/editions?

As indicated to André in my previous post, I just bought a used copy of Hacker and expect to enjoy if the package arrives safely and the discs are 'intact' - the Solstice Ensemble is also on Spotify and I'll take a listen - on my den speakers, the Spotify streaming sounds quite good so I'll unlikely want to purchase DLs of the recordings available there (just more storage space to find if I make CD-Rs! :laugh:)

As to your 'Haydn Seek' blog, I've re-read the ones on the lira and gave a link a few posts back - but I have it bookmarked and have read 'most' of your discussions there since its start - and having been a medical writer/editor for decades, I fully understand the effort needed that goes into putting these together (to keep me 'in practice' I do travelogues on the iPad Forums although those have pretty much stopped w/ this COVID isolation!). Dave :)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-TdLFmPf/0/9e26b477/O/HaydnLira_IndermuhleCamerata.png)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2021, 01:59:37 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on August 19, 2021, 01:45:23 PM
Hi Gurn - I listened to the entire Indermühle/Camerata Schultz recordings from Spotify this afternoon and enjoyed but sounds like MIs to me - I cannot find reviews/booklet notes/or other info on this production; the company is Camerata out of Japan HERE (http://www.camerata.co.jp/english/) but the website is poorly organized, however, there is an 'info' email address, if they respond to questions? Below is a pic from PrestoMusic offering a $30 MP3 DL only - the works include the 5 Lira Concerti & the 8 Notturni - my comparison to the Huss box was meant to state that discs 4-6 contained the same works w/ flute/oboe also used - not sure about the arrangements/editions?

As indicated to André in my previous post, I just bought a used copy of Hacker and expect to enjoy if the package arrives safely and the discs are 'intact' - the Solstice Ensemble is also on Spotify and I'll take a listen - on my den speakers, the Spotify streaming sounds quite good so I'll unlikely want to purchase DLs of the recordings available there (just more storage space to find if I make CD-Rs! :laugh:)

As to your 'Haydn Seek' blog, I've re-read the ones on the lira and gave a link a few posts back - but I have it bookmarked and have read 'most' of your discussions there since its start - and having been a medical writer/editor for decades, I fully understand the effort needed that goes into putting these together (to keep me 'in practice' I do travelogues on the iPad Forums although those have pretty much stopped w/ this COVID isolation!). Dave :)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-TdLFmPf/0/9e26b477/O/HaydnLira_IndermuhleCamerata.png)

Ah, Camerata. They will never tell you, but I have several disks from them, all very good indeed, but all modern instruments. I expect this will be the same. I ended up researching the players at the time, since the label was not talking. They are Japanese, IIRC. Good sound quality and production values.

Actually, the post of yours I replied to, I thought was your first, so I didn't see the one before that. So you did cover more than I knew. Thanks for linking me. Anyway, my Hacker was used when I bought it and it was in perfect shape, I am confident yours will be too, or that you can get one. Seeing that LP that Andre posted makes me wonder if they ever came out with a L'oiseau Lyre CD of it before the Decca came along. I'd like to have that if they did. One of my fave labels. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 19, 2021, 04:17:02 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 19, 2021, 01:59:37 PM
Ah, Camerata. They will never tell you, but I have several disks from them, all very good indeed, but all modern instruments. I expect this will be the same. I ended up researching the players at the time, since the label was not talking. They are Japanese, IIRC. Good sound quality and production values.

Actually, the post of yours I replied to, I thought was your first, so I didn't see the one before that. So you did cover more than I knew. Thanks for linking me. Anyway, my Hacker was used when I bought it and it was in perfect shape, I am confident yours will be too, or that you can get one. Seeing that LP that Andre posted makes me wonder if they ever came out with a L'oiseau Lyre CD of it before the Decca came along. I'd like to have that if they did. One of my fave labels. :)

8)

Gurn - you seem to be familiar w/ Camerata, and I feel the same, i.e. like pulling hen's teeth to get any valid information about that group; again, sounded like MIs to me but not always easy to tell, esp. if just strings (at least for my 'ears'). Well, lookin' forward to the Hacker - own 3 other recordings w/ him and love them all! Be safe - Susan & I are just waiting to be told about when we'll be getting our booster shot - OH FUN! Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: André on August 19, 2021, 04:42:42 PM

I forgot to mention (I think?) that the Hacker Nocturnes are played on period instruments, which adds a nice spicy flavor to the performance. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 19, 2021, 07:14:17 PM

Quote from: André on August 19, 2021, 04:42:42 PM
I forgot to mention (I think?) that the Hacker Nocturnes are played on period instruments, which adds a nice spicy flavor to the performance. :)

+1 André - own Hacker on other recordings playing historic clarinets - he's great and looking forward to that Haydn recording. Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 24, 2021, 07:58:27 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on August 19, 2021, 07:14:17 PM
+1 André - own Hacker on other recordings playing historic clarinets - he's great and looking forward to that Haydn recording. Dave :)

Well, my $8 'used' CD below arrived from the Amazon MP seller - disc surfaces pristine after a little cleaning, and both played just fine - at this point, I seem to have enough performances of these works - :laugh: And many not in my collection (from our previous posts) are now a Spotify playlist - my only temptation would be a 'new' release of these works using duo liras! 8) Dave

(https://img.discogs.com/y3kQOf4dA4JEPA62SWE05GXiWUI=/fit-in/400x393/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-5078958-1386492809-9124.jpeg.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: André on August 24, 2021, 09:06:43 AM

Good, Dave. Now you must enlighten us with your impressions :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on August 24, 2021, 09:12:07 AM

Quote from: André on August 24, 2021, 09:06:43 AM
Good, Dave. Now you must enlighten us with your impressions :)

I hear he does a mean Alan Alda.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 24, 2021, 11:36:21 AM

Quote from: André on August 24, 2021, 09:06:43 AM
Good, Dave. Now you must enlighten us with your impressions :) RE: Notturni w/ Hacker and Gang!

André - Gurn and you have already commented on the previous page - what can I add to your illustrious thoughts - :laugh:

For others not aware of these Notturni (called 'Nocturnes' on the cover art of the London Double Decker) - Haydn wrote 5 concertos and 8 notturni for the King of Naples, who along w/ one of his staff played the lira organizzata (hybrid hurdy-gurdy organ) - from Gurn's Haydn Seek (https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/haydns_music_by_decade_pt_4_1780s.html), the Naples instruments for these works are listed below from the link. When Haydn went to London for the Solomon Concerts, he rescored the Notturni by replacing the lira with flute/oboe 'equivalents' among other changes noted by Gurn - apparently these 'new' arrangements for London were used in this recording.

Now the notes are quite scant for this re-issue but I found a listing of the performers and instruments in the Hacker recording (from the LPs, I believe), shown below in the other pic. Being a fan of PIs and of Hacker and his clarinet recordings, I'm enthusiastic about this delightful recording; the combination of instruments is what I tend to like in a small chamber group, i.e. plenty of windy blowing! Of course, hard to compare some of these offerings discussed in the last page or so, i.e. Naples vs. London manuscripts, Lira vs. other instruments, PI vs. MI. I looked for reviews but came up pretty much 'dry', except for a brief one from BBC (attached) - they gave only a 3*/5* rating although their comments suggested another star should have been added (but I've found this pretty routine w/ this magazine). Bottom line - recommended recording if you desire the London versions and period instruments; of course for me, I like to have a mixture (which I do!). Dave :)

(https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-5tb6TVT/0/fea3a693/O/Haydn_Hacker.png) (https://photos.smugmug.com/Other/Classical-Music/i-SncRfvz/0/5b5df458/O/Haydn_Notturni.png)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: André on August 24, 2021, 12:17:06 PM

Thanks Dave !

It's the first time I see the line up of musicians in The Music Party. Apart from Hacker, I note the presence of some very well known figures from the english musical scene: Monica Huggett, Nicholas McGegan, Alan Civil are all star names.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 24, 2021, 12:32:55 PM

Quote from: André on August 24, 2021, 12:17:06 PM
Thanks Dave !

It's the first time I see the line up of musicians in The Music Party. Apart from Hacker, I note the presence of some very well known figures from the english musical scene: Monica Huggett, Nicholas McGegan, Alan Civil are all star names.

Yes! Huggett & McGegan came to my attention immediately, and enjoyed seeing the instrument listing - these notes are completely absent from my brief booklet in the 'Double Decker', but not unexpected in an inexpensive re-release, I guess. Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 24, 2021, 12:35:13 PM

Quote from: André on August 24, 2021, 12:17:06 PM
Thanks Dave !

It's the first time I see the line up of musicians in The Music Party. Apart from Hacker, I note the presence of some very well known figures from the English musical scene: Monica Huggett, Nicholas McGegan, Alan Civil are all star names.

I agree, it is the first time I see it too, since I don't recall the CD notes including such interesting tidbits! To your 'elites' list, I would add Catherine Mackintosh and Jennifer Ward Clarke. It is particularly impressive to see that all the instruments appear to be actual original instruments rather than reproductions (which I have no problem with BTW), especially things like the clarinets, since these Boxwood Beauties rarely survive in playable condition 200 years later!

Nice post, Dave, hope it revives interest in these lovely, but out of the way pieces. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 24, 2021, 12:40:29 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 24, 2021, 12:35:13 PM
I agree, it is the first time I see it too, since I don't recall the CD notes including such interesting tidbits! To your 'elites' list, I would add Catherine Mackintosh and Jennifer Ward Clarke. It is particularly impressive to see that all the instruments appear to be actual original instruments rather than reproductions (which I have no problem with BTW), especially things like the clarinets, since these Boxwood Beauties rarely survive in playable condition 200 years later!

Nice post, Dave, hope it revives interest in these lovely, but out of the way pieces. :)

8)

Tandentially, I have Catherine Mackintosh playing Vivaldi viola d'amore concerti.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 24, 2021, 06:40:09 PM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on August 24, 2021, 12:40:29 PM
Tandentially, I have Catherine Mackintosh playing Vivaldi viola d'amore concerti.

Me too, nice disk! She was Concertmistress of the Academy of Ancient Music under Hogwood when they did the complete Mozart symphonies, which is where I first heard of her. Then she moved on to the OAE which is where she did that Vivaldi. May still be there, I don't know, she might have retired by now. :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on August 24, 2021, 10:19:36 PM

Quote from: George on August 24, 2021, 09:12:07 AM
I hear he does a mean Alan Alda.

This is the best thing I've read all day. :laugh:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on August 25, 2021, 08:43:39 AM

Quote from: Madiel on August 24, 2021, 10:19:36 PM
This is the best thing I've read all day. :laugh:

LOL! :laugh: Believe that George was referring to me - in our family the best impersonator by far is my BIL (he does a lot of amateur acting on Long Island) - for my relationship to MASH, the TV series, one of the night techs when I was on call as a radiology resident nicknamed me Radar from the show - our noses do have a similar appearance! 8) Dave

(https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/mash/images/6/6c/Radar_s05e12-01.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on October 16, 2021, 01:56:02 AM

Does anyone have sufficient familiarity with the Auryn Quartet's series to comment on stronger or weaker volumes?

Some time ago on this thread I tried op.54 (I think) and found it a fraction too smooth for my taste and the acoustic a bit reverberant.

I'm currently giving them a go in op.1 and finding it highly enjoyable. The acoustic is still warm, but this time I'm not finding it too much. And there's a spring in the step of the performances.

I don't know right now how much of this is just me and my mood, and how much there's actually some difference in the volumes (surely, over such a big project, there will be at least some variation in success).

There aren't all that many options for opp.1 and 2, but a couple of works in and I'm definitely eyeing the Auryn with interest.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 16, 2021, 02:45:47 AM

Not really enough, but I'd recommend slightly against their op.33. (The only other volume I have is op.17 and an older recording of op.71 and it's been too long that I heard these to comment on them, only that I think I liked them both more.)
It shares the features you mention wrt op.54 and while not at all bad, I found it a bit uninvolved, especially in my favorite #3 "Bird" (and a piece with a lot of good recordings, unlike the other 5...) I still keep that op.33 around because I am not totally happy with any other I have either. (I am happy at least with superlative recordings of op.33#3 by the Jerusalem and Smetana quartets, so I don't need this one with the Auryn but it is still telling that they "fail" this best and most famous of the 6.)

Unlike some others opus numbers, though, there are quite a few recordings for op.33. So while this might be orthogonal to your request/approach, I'd try first the volumes with not much competition (i.e. NOT op.20,33,76,77). I stopped buying the series because they tended expensive and were not as good as I had hoped to warrant the expense (especially with me having already a lot of Haydn quartets on the shelves).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on October 16, 2021, 10:56:32 AM

Quote from: Madiel on October 16, 2021, 01:56:02 AM
There aren't all that many options for opp.1 and 2

I've recently listened to Opp. 1 & 2 played by the Kodaly Quartet and was mightily impressed.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 04, 2021, 04:16:52 AM

I'm currently enjoying a glorious and touching recording of Haydn's The Creation. This one:

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Rv0AAOSwX-Bfzmoo/s-l300.jpg) with a number of my favorite singers. I owned this recording for several years, but confess that I hadn't gotten around to playing it 'til now. It's absolutely gorgeous! What wonderful lyrics too! As my set doesn't contain any info re the work itself (though thankfully, it does have the texts and translations) can anyone here shed further light on it? From what I could glean from Wiki, the texts were from Gottfried van Swieten which in turn was based on John Milton's poem "Paradise Lost". Does this sound about right?

The first section/part really resonated with me--loved the description of the creation of the world and all of the animals....moved to tears by Janowitz's singing of the birds and about the nightingale and the "No sorrow weighs as yet upon her breast, as yet no note of sadness sounds in her lovely song."

Gorgeous singing all around. Great way to start the day. :)

PD

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on December 04, 2021, 05:43:43 AM

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on December 04, 2021, 04:16:52 AM
I'm currently enjoying a glorious and touching recording of Haydn's The Creation. This one:

(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/Rv0AAOSwX-Bfzmoo/s-l300.jpg) with a number of my favorite singers. I owned this recording for several years, but confess that I hadn't gotten around to playing it 'til now. It's absolutely gorgeous! What wonderful lyrics too! As my set doesn't contain any info re the work itself (though thankfully, it does have the texts and translations) can anyone here shed further light on it? From what I could glean from Wiki, the texts were from Gottfried van Swieten which in turn was based on John Milton's poem "Paradise Lost". Does this sound about right?

The first section/part really resonated with me--loved the description of the creation of the world and all of the animals....moved to tears by Janowitz's singing of the birds and about the nightingale and the "No sorrow weighs as yet upon her breast, as yet no note of sadness sounds in her lovely song."

Gorgeous singing all around. Great way to start the day. :)

PD

Hey , PD. Creation really is a great piece of music, for certain. I've written 3 or 4 essays about it, and they contain all the info currently available, along with bibliography. Here is the first one, the others follow along. Hope they have what you're looking for.

https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2018/08/1798-the-music-part-1.html

🤠😎

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 04, 2021, 05:53:15 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on December 04, 2021, 05:43:43 AM
Hey , PD. Creation really is a great piece of music, for certain. I've written 3 or 4 essays about it, and they contain all the info currently available, along with bibliography. Here is the first one, the others follow along. Hope they have what you're looking for.

https://www.fjhaydn.com/my-blog/2018/08/1798-the-music-part-1.html

🤠😎

Thanks Mike! I'll read them a bit later today. :)

PD

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Symphonic Addict on December 26, 2021, 05:38:57 PM

Independently of whether I agree or not with Hurwitz regarding what he thinks and put on his videos, I do admit that his Haydn symphony traversal is becoming an important achievement on Youtube. I enjoy much of his content, albeit I disagree with many of his assessments.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on December 26, 2021, 05:47:17 PM

Quote from: Symphonic Addict on December 26, 2021, 05:38:57 PM
Independently of whether I agree or not with Hurwitz regarding what he thinks and put on his videos, I do admit that his Haydn symphony traversal is becoming an important achievement on Youtube. I enjoy much of his content, albeit I disagree with many of his assessments.

I keep meaning to watch one or two of those, but the fact that there will eventually be 108 of them is intimidating ;D ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kyjo on December 26, 2021, 06:51:10 PM

Quote from: Symphonic Addict on December 26, 2021, 05:38:57 PM
Independently of whether I agree or not with Hurwitz regarding what he thinks and put on his videos, I do admit that his Haydn symphony traversal is becoming an important achievement on Youtube. I enjoy much of his content, albeit I disagree with many of his assessments.

I agree; though the Naxos recordings that Hurwitz uses for samples don't seem to be showing these works in the most flattering light....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Symphonic Addict on December 26, 2021, 07:49:58 PM

Quote from: Brian on December 26, 2021, 05:47:17 PM
I keep meaning to watch one or two of those, but the fact that there will eventually be 108 of them is intimidating ;D ;D

Certainly, and I hope he'll make all of them.

The Scarlatti's sonatas journey doesn't seem as succesful at the Haydn, though

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Symphonic Addict on December 26, 2021, 07:52:04 PM

Quote from: kyjo on December 26, 2021, 06:51:10 PM
I agree; though the Naxos recordings that Hurwitz uses for samples don't seem to be showing these works in the most flattering light....

I'm not sure if he can play excerpts from other labels regarding his symphonies. Maybe it has to do with it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 27, 2021, 08:10:41 AM

Quote from: Brian on December 26, 2021, 05:47:17 PM
I keep meaning to watch one or two of those, but the fact that there will eventually be 108 of them is intimidating ;D ;D

I watch Bartoli's Scarlatti vids as he rolled them out, FWIW. (I mean, though, that I enjoyed his presentations very much.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on December 27, 2021, 03:28:17 PM

Quote from: kyjo on December 26, 2021, 06:51:10 PM
I agree; though the Naxos recordings that Hurwitz uses for samples don't seem to be showing these works in the most flattering light....

I dunno, I collected the Naxos disks as they came out, although they are from different ensembles and are variable, I found most of them lively and engaging. (For comparison I have the PI box and about 20 or so odd symphony disks from different orchestras (inc a few Dorati ones)).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on December 27, 2021, 04:21:34 PM

Quote from: kyjo on December 26, 2021, 06:51:10 PM
I agree; though the Naxos recordings that Hurwitz uses for samples don't seem to be showing these works in the most flattering light....

Why do you say that? I think at least the recordings with Cologne Chamber Orchestra and Helmut Müller–Brühl are very good. There's a listing of the orchestras used here:

https://www.naxos.com/SharedFiles/pdf/8.503400_numerical-index.pdf#

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on December 27, 2021, 11:16:49 PM

I had 3-5 of the Naxos Haydn symphonies and they were overall good, not great. The Müller-Brühl might have the best sound and playing (they are also among the more recent of their recordings) but sometimes mannered (I really disliked his #80). Drahos with some hungarian ensemble? was also good but the sound a bit boomy and resonant.
Hurwitz seems to have a deal with some labels letting him play excerpts and for Haydn Naxos might have been the only option.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 28, 2021, 04:10:47 AM

Quote from: Brian on December 26, 2021, 05:47:17 PM
I keep meaning to watch one or two of those, but the fact that there will eventually be 108 of them is intimidating ;D ;D

:laugh: ;)

PD

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on December 28, 2021, 05:59:06 AM

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on December 28, 2021, 04:10:47 AM
:laugh: ;)

PD

I can "watch" 108 vids of Haydn symphonies. But 108 vids of Hurwitz jawing about Haydn symphonies? Include me out, as the saying goes.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on December 30, 2021, 07:45:23 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on December 28, 2021, 05:59:06 AM
I can "watch" 108 vids of Haydn symphonies. But 108 vids of Hurwitz jawing about Haydn symphonies? Include me out, as the saying goes.

Here, here! ;D

PD

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on January 04, 2022, 06:04:50 AM

Is it too late to fly to Switzerland? Probably not.
Is it too expensive to fly to Switzerland? Probably yes. ;D
BUT there will be a live broadcast on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptHbTNUI5vs)

Il Giardino Armonico
Kammerorchester Basel
(both orchestras playing together to mimic the large size ensemble available in London's Hanover Rooms)
Giovanni Antonini, Dirigent

Joseph Haydn:
Sinfonie Nr. 90 in C-Dur
Sinfonie Nr. 98 in B-Dur
Pause
Gioachino Rossini:
Ouvertüre zu «La scala di seta»
Sinfonie Nr. 94 in G-Dur «The Surprise»

Concerts 23-26 January, recording session to follow (Vol. 16, CD release in 2024!)

The YouTube streaming concert will be the January 26 concert in Basel, with an introductory talk from the conductor and a Haydn scholar. Talk at 6:15 Switzerland time, concert at 7:30 there.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Symphonic Addict on January 08, 2022, 03:19:13 PM

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODQyNTA1NS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1MjAxNTM1MjR9)

Previously I was listening to the Cello Concerto No. 2 in D major. I thought it was like too much "polite" and polished of a performance for me.

Are there any recordings of his cello concertos with more robustness, vigour and audacity?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: aukhawk on January 09, 2022, 02:33:45 AM

I generally only listen toi the C major concerto but of recordings that couple the two, Truls Mørk or Alisa Weilerstein might suit better, or at the HIPper end of the spectrum, Christophe Coin or Pieter Wispelwey. If I could only have one, I'd probably go with Coin. The Weilerstein pairing is coupled with a good rendition of Verklarte Nacht - of all things!
In the C major, I have a particular fondness for Ludovit Kanta for his absolutely audacious 'out there' cadenzas.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71PZ6EsHGYL._SS500_.jpg)
Haydn, Boccherini; Cello Concertos; Kanta, Breiner, Capella Istropolitana; Naxos

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: MusicTurner on January 09, 2022, 06:49:49 AM

I second Kanta in Haydn too, for example. The early Rostropovich/Barshai concertos (1963; live; at least on Brilliant) are surely among the liveliest recordings in existence, with interesting phrasings too, but you might find the sound quality too old, and they can be a bit rough as well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Symphonic Addict on January 09, 2022, 03:53:01 PM

Thanks for the replies, gents! I'll continue exploring then

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Que on January 15, 2022, 01:37:06 AM

Quote from: Symphonic Addict on January 08, 2022, 03:19:13 PM

Previously I was listening to the Cello Concerto No. 2 in D major. I thought it was like too much "polite" and polished of a performance for me.

Are there any recordings of his cello concertos with more robustness, vigour and audacity?

Anner Bijlsma:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61H3+rrJzkL._AC_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on January 26, 2022, 09:34:40 AM

Quote from: Brian on January 04, 2022, 06:04:50 AM
Is it too late to fly to Switzerland? Probably not.
Is it too expensive to fly to Switzerland? Probably yes. ;D
BUT there will be a live broadcast on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptHbTNUI5vs)

Il Giardino Armonico
Kammerorchester Basel
(both orchestras playing together to mimic the large size ensemble available in London's Hanover Rooms)
Giovanni Antonini, Dirigent

Joseph Haydn:
Sinfonie Nr. 90 in C-Dur
Sinfonie Nr. 98 in B-Dur
Pause
Gioachino Rossini:
Ouvertüre zu «La scala di seta»
Sinfonie Nr. 94 in G-Dur «The Surprise»

Concerts 23-26 January, recording session to follow (Vol. 16, CD release in 2024!)

The YouTube streaming concert will be the January 26 concert in Basel, with an introductory talk from the conductor and a Haydn scholar. Talk at 6:15 Switzerland time, concert at 7:30 there.

LIVE STREAMING NOW - No. 90 just started two minutes ago!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on January 26, 2022, 10:35:25 AM

Comments:

The combined orchestras sound great (and are not a huge ensemble or even full-sized by modern standards). Very characterful HIP woodwind soloists. Valveless horns.
Antonini conducts without baton, with generally purposeful hands rather than demonstrative flailing or leaping, although plenty of silly faces. The violins stand up.

90:
The development and recap are repeated in full after the final coda of the first movement. (The latter after quite a long pause, to create a trick ending.) I know other conductors like Harnoncourt do this in certain symphonies, but I'm not familiar with the discussion around this particular practice and why people do it.

More peculiar is the finale. I must admit I was munching on lunch and not paying the closest possible attention. But the movement seemed to end, there was a long pause, and then the players plunged into what sounded like a "Haydn surprise" bonus coda and then the development and recap again, followed, of course, by another long pause and then another "Haydn surprise" bonus coda. This strikes me as foolishness - surely the joke is spoiled if you repeat it, and just becomes a prank? I notice the movement timing roughly doubles the time on Bruggen's recording.

In general, apart from the error in judgment in the finale, this struck me as an extremely good performance and some of the 2032 project's best work. Ensemble sound is wonderful. There was only a tiny bit of not-quite-unison playing at big climaxes. And, on the other hand, good pacing throughout, expressive phrasing, forward winds (even before you consider the excellent flute and oboe solos throughout), and a passionate minuet full of contrasts which was the absolute highlight of the performance.

Full symphony 31 minutes

98:
One of my favorite symphonies ever!
The phrasing of the first, minor key statement is really great. You could almost say they play it like a series of blunt, angry notes which stand on their own. In other words, there's no phrasing - they're not a phrase at all. Just notes: boom. boom. boom. Like someone's very first piano lesson. And this makes it even more delightful when the movement proper starts and everyone is singing the tune so fluently and charmingly.

From there through the finale, everything goes great. A wonderfully paced, fun, excellent performance by a great-sounding ensemble, again highlighted by the solo flute and oboe players. The harpsichord is not deployed at all until the end (no, uh, continuous continuo), so they wisely do not spoil the surprise. The finale might be the teeny tiniest bit too fast (the main theme is a bit blurry), but exciting anyway. The little slow bits in the coda are only just slower than the surrounding movement - maybe the tempo that a Big Band Orchestra would have chosen in the 1970s - not the really prankish big-contrast slowness of someone like Bruggen.

OK interlude time!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on January 26, 2022, 11:31:50 AM

Rossini overture:

This is just a brilliant inclusion. It really ties together the styles of Rossini and Haydn to present them on one program. The wit, the structural mastery, the capacity for "descriptive" music which evokes certain effects (laughter, animals, etc.), the virtuosic woodwind solos. You really get to see Rossini as Haydn's heir. This is especially the case as "La scala di seta," like Haydn's 90th from the first half of the program, features a very prominent oboe solo. Here, it was flawless. The oboist really earned bonus pay tonight!

As this was the only piece to incorporate clarinets, the directors of the livestream forgot to have a camera looking at the clarinet players.

94
Of the three big surprises in the three Haydn symphonies on this program, the one actually called "Surprise" gets the best execution. It's played straight, no pianissimissimissimo before the big chord, no yelling like - is it Minkowski who has the players yell? Or Norrington? The rest of the performance is wonderful - and whoever this oboist is, they should put his name on the cover. There is another mini-surprise - just in the final bars, when the woodwinds get in two little chords before the final two tutti chords bring the whole symphony to an end, Antonini balances the flutes, oboes, and bassoons equally to achieve a nice flatulent, comical texture. Almost like he's preparing for 93!

Suitably exciting in the finales, expressive in the melodies - note, Hurwitz, the string players use vibrato in slow movements ;D - this was a trio of really good performances. Only the finale of 90 strikes me as a genuine failure of judgment.

With a full 100 minutes of music, I presume this will be released as a 2CD set.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 26, 2022, 11:52:10 AM

Quote from: Brian on January 26, 2022, 10:35:25 AM
Comments:

The combined orchestras sound great (and are not a huge ensemble or even full-sized by modern standards). Very characterful HIP woodwind soloists. Valveless horns.
Antonini conducts without baton, with generally purposeful hands rather than demonstrative flailing or leaping, although plenty of silly faces. The violins stand up.

90:
The development and recap are repeated in full after the final coda of the first movement. (The latter after quite a long pause, to create a trick ending.) I know other conductors like Harnoncourt do this in certain symphonies, but I'm not familiar with the discussion around this particular practice and why people do it.

More peculiar is the finale. I must admit I was munching on lunch and not paying the closest possible attention. But the movement seemed to end, there was a long pause, and then the players plunged into what sounded like a "Haydn surprise" bonus coda and then the development and recap again, followed, of course, by another long pause and then another "Haydn surprise" bonus coda. This strikes me as foolishness - surely the joke is spoiled if you repeat it, and just becomes a prank? I notice the movement timing roughly doubles the time on Bruggen's recording.

In general, apart from the error in judgment in the finale, this struck me as an extremely good performance and some of the 2032 project's best work. Ensemble sound is wonderful. There was only a tiny bit of not-quite-unison playing at big climaxes. And, on the other hand, good pacing throughout, expressive phrasing, forward winds (even before you consider the excellent flute and oboe solos throughout), and a passionate minuet full of contrasts which was the absolute highlight of the performance.

Full symphony 31 minutes

Thanks for this review, Brian, looking forward to getting this in my hands. Here is my look at Hob. 90, a very nice work indeed.

Hoboken 90 (https://tinyurl.com/2nztnube)

I agree with you on repeating the surprise ending in this one. I'm not sure why they did it, they must have felt it was appropriate, but I am fairly confident that Haydn would have not agreed, feeling your same sense of imbalance and illogic. And if there is anything Haydn was in his work, it was logical.

To be released when?

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: André on January 26, 2022, 03:43:40 PM

I've heard that finale played both ways a couple of weeks ago. Repeating the 'faux' ending completely spoils Haydn's clever jeu d'esprit.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 26, 2022, 04:32:55 PM

Quote from: André on January 26, 2022, 03:43:40 PM
I've heard that finale played both ways a couple of weeks ago. Repeating the 'faux' ending completely spoils Haydn's clever jeu d'esprit.

Not merely a bad choice, but complete failure to read the composer! >:(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 26, 2022, 04:38:03 PM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on January 26, 2022, 04:32:55 PM
Not merely a bad choice, but complete failure to read the composer! >:(

Which is quite out of character for Antonini, who is really quite brilliant. :-\

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on January 26, 2022, 04:51:21 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 26, 2022, 04:38:03 PM
Which is quite out of character for Antonini, who is really quite brilliant. :-\

8)

Agreed.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on January 27, 2022, 06:13:34 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 26, 2022, 11:52:10 AM
Thanks for this review, Brian, looking forward to getting this in my hands. Here is my look at Hob. 90, a very nice work indeed.

Hoboken 90 (https://tinyurl.com/2nztnube)

I agree with you on repeating the surprise ending in this one. I'm not sure why they did it, they must have felt it was appropriate, but I am fairly confident that Haydn would have not agreed, feeling your same sense of imbalance and illogic. And if there is anything Haydn was in his work, it was logical.

To be released when?

8)

Thanks for the link! I love the comment that it should be rehearsed at least once. It certainly is an interesting symphony with lots of effects, as he says. I will say Antonini keeps the metronomic regularity of the slow movement's variations intact, but his vision of the scherzo's trio is quite different - the lower string interjections at the end of each oboe solo line are very gruff, martial, and pointed, which only adds to the humor of the contrasts. Even the minuet was not so stately, as he allowed the tempo to relax in calmer moments and surge ahead in the more commanding ones.

I absolutely fell for the joke ending ;D just ... not the second time :(

EDIT:
Oh, forgot to answer the "when." Unfortunately, this was concert #16, we're on CD #11 now, and given their two-per-year schedule, that means we have quite a wait. Here's the current schedule:

Q1 2022: Vol. 11, "Au goût parisien," 24, 87, 2, 82
Q3 2022: Vol. 12, "Les jeux et les plaisirs," 69, 61, 66, Sinfonia in C "Berchtoldsgadener"
Q1 2023: Vol. 13, "Hornsignal," 48, 59, 31
Q3 2023: Vol. 14, "L'imperiale," 33, 54, 53
Q1 2024: Vol. 15, "Majestäten," 62, 50, 85 + violin concerto in A with Christian Tetzlaff
Q3 2024: Vol. 16, "The Surprise," 90, 98, 94 + Rossini

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 27, 2022, 06:53:06 AM

Quote from: Brian on January 27, 2022, 06:13:34 AM

EDIT:
Oh, forgot to answer the "when." Unfortunately, this was concert #16, we're on CD #11 now, and given their two-per-year schedule, that means we have quite a wait. Here's the current schedule:

Q1 2022: Vol. 11, "Au goût parisien," 24, 87, 2, 82
Q3 2022: Vol. 12, "Les jeux et les plaisirs," 69, 61, 66, Sinfonia in C "Berchtoldsgadener"
Q1 2023: Vol. 13, "Hornsignal," 48, 59, 31
Q3 2023: Vol. 14, "L'imperiale," 33, 54, 53
Q1 2024: Vol. 15, "Majestäten," 62, 50, 85 + violin concerto in A with Christian Tetzlaff
Q3 2024: Vol. 16, "The Surprise," 90, 98, 94 + Rossini

Thanks for looking up the schedule. I stopped doing that a while ago when they got so far behind in the releases, it just made me feel bad. :)

It would certainly be nice to see Vol 11 finally, Vol. 10 was so long ago I've nearly forgotten it already. Guess I'll have to sit and listen to it again, darn the luck! :D

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: André on January 27, 2022, 09:55:05 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 26, 2022, 04:38:03 PM
Which is quite out of character for Antonini, who is really quite brilliant. :-\

8)

The other version I heard is by Bruno Weil, also HIP and perfectly in tune with the work's spirit.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 27, 2022, 10:48:21 AM

Quote from: André on January 27, 2022, 09:55:05 AM
The other version I heard is by Bruno Weil, also HIP and perfectly in tune with the work's spirit.

Yes, I favor that version for sure, as well as Kuijken / LPB who do a really nice job with the whole set (88-92). :)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on January 27, 2022, 02:47:39 PM

Kuijken is the set I have.

The fake ending gets me pretty much every time. I can't imagine sitting through a repeat of it though.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on February 15, 2022, 10:21:59 AM

(https://cdn.naxosmusiclibrary.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/ALPHA784.jpg)

This comes with a Symphony No. 49 "La Passione" with a small stage organ instead of a woodwind section. (The orchestra has no wind players.) The trio of the minuet is practically an extended organ solo in this reading. A strange choice!

(Maybe even stranger is that this is at least Alpha's third "La Passione" after recent recordings by Antonini and Barbara Hannigan.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on February 15, 2022, 10:28:11 AM

Very odd. The trio of #49 is dominated by French horns and the only extended section in the major mode in that symphony.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: aukhawk on February 17, 2022, 12:36:39 AM

Interest piqued, I just had a listen and I think it's a beautiful rendition of this, one of my favourite Haydn symphonies. Actually the very first note you hear, at the start of the 1st movement, comes from the organ and it is an ever-present throughout all four movements. I really like it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on February 24, 2022, 01:50:57 PM

I find myself more and more wanting to really get a grip on Haydn's chronology (as much as it is known) and where to place various music.

Yes, I know Gurn has done all the work for me. It's just that breaking it down into chunks my brain can handle is going to be tricky. That darn Haydn produced music for too many decades... ;D

I've probably got about 70 CDs worth of Haydn's music by now (I don't know if I should actually go count: symphonies, piano trios, maybe two-thirds of the quartets, masses, cello concertos, The Creation), and I have this constant uneasiness that I haven't yet grasped what goes where!

At the very least I want to try to sort out the music from the 1780s onward. I should know what comes from the period of the London trips, for example, besides the symphonies. Wish me luck.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 24, 2022, 02:05:50 PM

Quote from: Madiel on February 24, 2022, 01:50:57 PM
I find myself more and more wanting to really get a grip on Haydn's chronology (as much as it is known) and where to place various music.

Yes, I know Gurn has done all the work for me. It's just that breaking it down into chunks my brain can handle is going to be tricky. That darn Haydn produced music for too many decades... ;D

I've probably got about 70 CDs worth of Haydn's music by now (I don't know if I should actually go count: symphonies, piano trios, maybe two-thirds of the quartets, masses, cello concertos, The Creation), and I have this constant uneasiness that I haven't yet grasped what goes where!

At the very least I want to try to sort out the music from the 1780s onward. I should know what comes from the period of the London trips, for example, besides the symphonies. Wish me luck.

I DO wish you luck, and congratulate you on wanting to do it. Fascinating stuff, really! In my blog you can see some sidebar links to pages that go to the music broken down by decade (with year identified). That is as much as I wanted to go precision-wise. :o

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on February 24, 2022, 02:56:14 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on February 24, 2022, 02:05:50 PM
I DO wish you luck, and congratulate you on wanting to do it. Fascinating stuff, really! In my blog you can see some sidebar links to pages that go to the music broken down by decade (with year identified). That is as much as I wanted to go precision-wise. :o

8)

Yes I'm aware of those links. Heck, if one does a google for something like "Haydn chronology", your site frequently comes up. I do actually want to read the more detailed posts as well (I have read some of them before).

It seems to me that around 1779, when Haydn got the extra freedom to produce works for the general public, is as good a dividing line as any from which to start mentally organising, and it actually does a reasonable job of splitting his career in roughly 2 halves. And then maybe the next division is before London, during and between London trips, and post-London...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on February 24, 2022, 03:01:27 PM

Quote from: Madiel on February 24, 2022, 02:56:14 PM
Yes I'm aware of those links. Heck, if one does a google for something like "Haydn chronology", your site frequently comes up. I do actually want to read the more detailed posts as well (I have read some of them before).

It seems to me that around 1779, when Haydn got the extra freedom to produce works for the general public, is as good a dividing line as any from which to start mentally organising, and it actually does a reasonable job of splitting his career in roughly 2 halves. And then maybe the next division is before London, during and between London trips, and post-London...

Yes, 1780 is a good dividing line, I was always surprised when I would discover yet another major change in his life that coincided with the turn of a decade. 🤠😎

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: kyjo on February 25, 2022, 03:42:09 PM

Quote from: Symphonic Addict on January 08, 2022, 03:19:13 PM
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODQyNTA1NS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE1MjAxNTM1MjR9)

Previously I was listening to the Cello Concerto No. 2 in D major. I thought it was like too much "polite" and polished of a performance for me.

Are there any recordings of his cello concertos with more robustness, vigour and audacity?

I highly recommend Alisa Weilerstein and the Trondheim Soloists on Pentatone! Robustness and vigour aplenty (but not too HIP). ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Symphonic Addict on March 12, 2022, 05:06:14 PM

Quote from: kyjo on February 25, 2022, 03:42:09 PM
I highly recommend Alisa Weilerstein and the Trondheim Soloists on Pentatone! Robustness and vigour aplenty (but not too HIP). ;)

Thank you, Kyle. I missed this post for some reason. I'll take them in mind.

For now, I'm getting quite fascinated by his String Quartet, Op. 74-3 in G minor. Absolute genius. The way he creates tension and discussion among the instruments and each other; it's the sort of magic that accomplished composers knew how to print on their outputs.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 18, 2022, 05:39:39 PM

Reading about Haydn's last, unfinished, quartet, Op 103. Apparently Haydn wrote the two inner movements, a slow movement and a Menuetto, but then discovered he didn't have the strength, at his age, to composer a first and last movement.

Do we know if Haydn usually wrote this way earlier in his career, ie writing the inner movements of SQs (and symphonies perhaps) first?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on March 19, 2022, 01:21:17 AM

I don't think we know it in the case of earlier pieces but I have read the idea that in the case of that unfinished quartet he might have started with them because they were easier to compose. Obviously, in the classical era the first movement is almost always the longest, most weighty and complex and the finale also became a special challenge in the late classical era.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on March 19, 2022, 02:28:13 AM

I don't know that they were Haydn specifically, but I'm sure I've heard of other examples of composers doing the same thing.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 13, 2022, 10:15:35 AM

Piano Sonatas - best pick on the modern piano? 8) Currently, I own the top 4 boxes, 3 on period instruments which I will keep (unless some newer fortepiano set is released?) - BUT, for a modern piano box, I've had Derzhavina for quite a while and have noticed some others being made available - the bottom row is just four that I could find and don't believe that Bavouzet (up to V. 10) has been boxed up yet? Don't have the room to ADD but could cull Ekaterina depending on comments (and likely some previewing on Spotify) - SO, what are some favs on modern instruments? Dave :)

Quote from: SonicMan46 on March 06, 2020, 07:05:54 PM
Apropos topic for me - just starting a close perusal of my Haydn collection and have accumulated a lot of duplication and triplication (and even more in certain genres) - regarding the Keyboard Sonatas on period instruments, I own the 3 sets below; also have Bart van Oort in the non-sonata works on fortepiano and Ekaterina Derzhavina on modern piano - looking forward to comments & recommendations. Dave :)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51wYXTIqpNL.jpg) (https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41Ej4uzvCsL.jpg) (https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiODAwMzgxOS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwidG9Gb3JtYXQiOiJqcGVnIiwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX19LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0MDE5ODI1NTd9) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61mOsCF2zKL._SL1000_.jpg)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71DTVbf68EL._SX425_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71FkXW0voCL._SL1425_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61THkW3U7jL._SL1200_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61x6GjAgr3L._SL1200_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 13, 2022, 10:25:52 AM

Buchbinder was something of a standard recommendation in earlier times (when it was one of very few choices). I have probably heard bits of it but no clear memory. 1970s-80s Buchbinder is often a bit hard-hitting, fast and straightforward to a fault (although not unidiomatic, he's Austrian after all, grew up in Vienna (born in Bohemia).

I have not heard Jando or Bavouzet but I think the latter got very good reviews and is probably the only challenge to Derzhavina. I had all or most of Piazzini's on separate older Arte Nova discs and got rid of them during several stages of culling, the final one after I had bought Derzhavina. Piazzini is pretty good, in good sound but not as distinctive. Unless you dislike Derzhavina sometimes a bit romantic/dreamy approach (but I think it's a good contrast to the usually faster/straighter HIP approaches) I doubt that any of the 3 modern boxes will be an improvement in either sound or interpretation. (Bavouzet being the most recent with probably the best sound might be a challenger but fairly pricey, I guess).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: MusicTurner on April 13, 2022, 10:35:06 AM

Of complete sets, I've only had the Brilliant Classics set on historical pianos + the Olbertz one previously, so not a connoisseur at all ... I found none of them satisfying and culled them, getting Jando in stead. Jando is fine, generally light and rhythmical, but I'm pretty sure he can also be a bit restrained at times, compared to other completists and not at least individual sonatas recordings, in some sonatas. I remember sampling a good deal of McCabe before choosing Jando, deciding for Jando in the end. Can't recommend Olbertz, who I found bland; in the Brilliant set it was mainly the instrumental sound that was off-putting in itself for me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 13, 2022, 11:01:33 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on April 13, 2022, 10:25:52 AM
Buchbinder was something of a standard recommendation in earlier times (when it was one of very few choices). I have probably heard bits of it but no clear memory. 1970s-80s Buchbinder is often a bit hard-hitting, fast and straightforward to a fault (although not unidiomatic, he's Austrian after all, grew up in Vienna (born in Bohemia).

I have not heard Jando or Bavouzet but I think the latter got very good reviews and is probably the only challenge to Derzhavina. I had all or most of Piazzini's on separate older Arte Nova discs and got rid of them during several stages of culling, the final one after I had bought Derzhavina. Piazzini is pretty good, in good sound but not as distinctive. Unless you dislike Derzhavina sometimes a bit romantic/dreamy approach (but I think it's a good contrast to the usually faster/straighter HIP approaches) I doubt that any of the 3 modern boxes will be an improvement in either sound or interpretation. (Bavouzet being the most recent with probably the best sound might be a challenger but fairly pricey, I guess).

Quote from: MusicTurner on April 13, 2022, 10:35:06 AM
Of complete sets, I've only had the Brilliant Classics set on historical pianos + the Olbertz one previously, so not a connoisseur at all ... I found none of them satisfying and culled them, getting Jando in stead. Jando is fine, generally light and rhythmical, but I'm pretty sure he can also be a bit restrained at times, compared to other completists and not at least individual sonatas recordings, in some sonatas. I remember sampling a good deal of McCabe before choosing Jando, deciding for Jando in the end. Can't recommend Olbertz, who I found bland; in the Brilliant set it was mainly the instrumental sound that was off-putting in itself for me.

Thanks Guys for the comments - I culled out McCabe for Derzhavina and found the reviews on Buchbinder and Olbertz to be somewhat dated w/ 'older' sound - Piazzini piqued my interest, available at BRO for $45 USD, but could not find any great reviews, in fact rather disappointing; and Jando - meh? SO, that leaves Bavouzet but will wait to see if he's done at V.10, and if Chandos will box up his recordings at a decent price, but even than I'm still quite pleased w/ Ekaterina - may just stay pat for the moment. Thanks again. Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 13, 2022, 11:49:17 AM

$45 is o.k. for Piazzini; I wouldn't pay more, it was a budget series/label from its first publication. I got the 5-6 discs I had back then (probably early 2000s?) mostly to get to know the pieces or fill gaps between others I had. Sound was good, but not exceptional, AFAIR. (I also didn't like the haphazard order of the sonatas on the discs)

I have the Schornsheim and Derszhavina boxes and a whole lot of singles to several discs anthologies: Gould, Brendel, Hamelin, Staier, Schiff, Andsnes, Vogt, Richter, Pogorelich... which is plenty for me although obviously the dozen or so more famous sonatas dominate most anthologies. That's also why I didn't get any of the expensive Bavouzet vols. and ignored the older complete recordings. There is another complete set by the late Franco-lebanese pianist Walid Akl (Discover) but this seemed also uneven in both sound and interpretation (I had a couple of discs long ago).
Despite liking a few of the sonatas quite a bit, I think as a body of work they are not as quite as important as Haydn's quartets, symphonies, piano trios (and actually served quite well on disk by now, considerably better than the trios).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: amw on April 13, 2022, 12:09:59 PM

I like Derzhavina a lot honestly—haven't seen the need to acquire significantly more Haydn on modern piano since that point (only the Hamelin sets). Walid Akl is also pretty good, but yes, uneven, and also probably difficult to find these days without access to a library. Similarly, fairly happy with Schornsheim on period instruments, although I'm more likely to look for a HIP alternative there in the future.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 13, 2022, 12:15:16 PM

Quote from: amw on April 13, 2022, 12:09:59 PM
I like Derzhavina a lot honestly—haven't seen the need to acquire significantly more Haydn on modern piano since that point (only the Hamelin sets). Walid Akl is also pretty good, but yes, uneven, and also probably difficult to find these days without access to a library. Similarly, fairly happy with Schornsheim on period instruments, although I'm more likely to look for a HIP alternative there in the future.

I enjoy the Derzhavina, too.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 13, 2022, 12:15:32 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on April 13, 2022, 10:15:35 AM
Piano Sonatas - best pick on the modern piano?

Outside of the box Brendel and Richter.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/7160InVwkFL._SL1200_.jpg)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61BShUrrUIL._SL1400_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 15, 2022, 05:02:45 AM

I was listening to some Haydn symphonies this morning and I wanted to say that the adagio in the 13th symphony was surprisingly sublime. Maybe it is just me, but if you haven't heard it in awhile, check it out.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 15, 2022, 06:47:27 AM

Quote from: DavidW on April 15, 2022, 05:02:45 AM
I was listening to some Haydn symphonies this morning and I wanted to say that the adagio in the 13th symphony was surprisingly sublime. Maybe it is just me, but if you haven't heard it in awhile, check it out.

Queuing up some "Papa" is never a bad suggestion:

https://www.youtube.com/v/SIu6gK4DIHg

Just what mine ears needed this morning, Davey, thanks!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 15, 2022, 08:59:55 AM

Haydn's String Quartets - over the last few days in the 'listening thread', there has been a LOT posted on various performances of these works (see all of the 'quotes' at the bottom) - believe that I've gathered most of them for posterity in this more dedicated thread on Papa. Obviously, MIs vs. PIs enters the discussion, plus support (for or against) certain groups dominates the discussion. Of the PI groups, the London Haydn Quartet (LHQ) has received little respect (raked across the coals in ClassicsToday by Hurwitz et al), and seems generally not liked in the forum from the comments below.

Of the MI groups, much seems OOP and/or outrageously expensive as 'used' items, and of newer recordings (many recommended below), I find the selections are incomplete and costly too. Off Spotify this morning - and still trying to get a better handle on MI SQ versions (Op. 33 & Op. 76, respectively of those shown), I listened to the Angeles & Kodaly SQs (both complete sets available there) - for me both sounded fine - so, looked up some reviews of the Kodaly SQ (the other is OOP and too expensive on Amazon USA) which are attached and quite impressive, even an 8/8 from ClassicsToday! :laugh:

SO, just trying to place these postings in one place and gleam any more comments, although maybe enough has been said? Currently, all of my Haydn SQ collection use PIs (except Nomus in Op. 50), i.e. the groups below in my posts, including all of the LHQ to date - my feeling is to cull them out and add a fairly complete (and acceptably priced) MI group. Dave :)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81WbzxPJhHL._SL1200_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71SFJ5nVK8L._SL1200_.jpg)

Quote from: DavidW on April 14, 2022, 05:15:25 AM
I'm actually with Madiel but not hating. I just think London Haydn is overrated, they're fine but not exceptional.

Quote from: SonicMan46 on April 14, 2022, 06:59:10 AM
Thanks Madiel & David for your thoughts on the London Haydn Quartet (LHQ); as I'm listening to them along w/ the Q. Festetics (QF) & now Q. Mosaiques (QM) in a kind of A:B comparison, I'm preferring the Quatuors period instruments and performances more - also returned to the Haydn Haus thread and searched on the LHQ - numerous posts w/ much varied opinions about the group - I was likely somewhat awed that the series was still ongoing and many of the reviews quite positive (and some dreadful such as the Classics Today reviewers - however, when Hurwitz goes that low I feel he must have eaten a bad meal - ;D). At any rate, I'm quite happy with the period recordings of QF and QM, so a third might not be needed in my collection - perhaps I should look for a 'modern performance'? Thanks again - Dave :)

Quote from: Jo498 on April 14, 2022, 08:02:49 AM
I wasn't aware that Hurwitz had trashed the LHQ, or at least this particular recording. In fact I think I missed this whole series until I saw it mentioned on this forum here 6 years ago or so. As I was so well-provided with Haydn and also couldn't really like the slow "moderato" movements in the first movements (although I found myself some other recordings a bit on the fast side, the LHQ (still looks like a particle accelerator acronym) seemed just too slow) of op.9,17,20 I always put off buying on of that series, even for the later volumes...

Quote from: DavidW on April 14, 2022, 08:43:09 AM
Yes the Festetics reign supreme in my book. For MI on the pre-Op 20 SQs I prefer Kodaly, and on Op 20 onwards Angeles and Auryn. The former is oop though, and the latter is expensive.

Quote from: aukhawk on April 14, 2022, 09:44:47 AM
The Dorics have done some good Haydn SQ. Modern instruments and style, but HIP-informed, a world away from LHQ (who I too don't like very much) but also a world away from QF and Kodaly for that matter.

Quote from: SonicMan46 on April 14, 2022, 11:34:35 AM
Yep David - I've been looking at the MI offerings on Amazon and not much available from your post-Op. 20 suggestions above - the Kodaly box of 25 discs is going for $80 - not ready to buy (have about $20 credit there at the moment) but curious about the packaging, i.e. I hope that this is not 25 single jewel boxes vs. paper or cardboard sleeves? Any help appreciated - thanks. Dave

Quote from: DavidW on April 14, 2022, 12:51:38 PM
Looks like sleeves: https://denigma.io/post/226 (https://denigma.io/post/226) I collected them individually back in the day.

Quote from: Madiel on April 14, 2022, 02:55:13 PM
I don't actually own a recording of op.9 as yet, in part because there aren't many options available and some are hard to acquire on physical disc. Kodaly for modern? Otherwise you already have a couple of the groups that I know about. Did Mosaiques do op.9?

Quote from: SonicMan46 on April 14, 2022, 03:38:21 PM
I have 2 boxes of Q. Mosaiques and Op. 20 is their earliest recording; Op. 9 I have w/ the London HQ and the Q. Festetics, the latter would be a good choice for period instruments from your feelings about he Londerers - Dave :)

Quote from: aukhawk on April 15, 2022, 02:20:14 AM
I really don't mean to sound sour - but I can't really conceive of spending money in this day and age, on the Kodaly recordings. Still less spending precious time actually listening to them, even free on Spotify say. And yes, I did buy a few of them, 'back in the day' - and they were OK, back in the day - but they sound hopelessly old-fashioned now. Only if it is a complete quartets integrale that is wanted, should they even be a consideration. But Haydn's quartets are not an even body of work - the early Ops are really only of historical/musicalogical interest, and the late Ops don't really add to what he achieved with Ops 20 and 33. Best to listen selectively IMHO when there are so many outstanding 'singles' available.

The Chiaroscuros, Zaide, Doric, Dudok, Casals, Hanson - all demand to be heard, and I daresay others too - but all just cherry-pick from Haydn's highlights - they make these selections, so we don't have to. The Mosaiques are fairly comprehensive from Op20 onwards, and a bit easier on the ear than the Festetics IMHO, although the latter are recommendable too.

Quote from: Florestan on April 15, 2022, 02:26:57 AM
I beg to differ. I listened to them recently and was mightily impressed, especially by the minuets and the adagios. Incidentally, the performers were the Kodaly.

Quote from: aligreto on April 15, 2022, 02:54:16 AM

Another vote here for the Kodalys.

Quote from: Madiel on April 15, 2022, 03:30:35 AM
You've got to be kidding me. Have you ever actually listened to op.76?

Which, by the way, is generally considered one of the Kodaly Quartet's high points.

Claiming that Haydn didn't keep progressing after op.33 is like saying that he didn't need to bother with the Paris and London symphonies. In the case of the quartets there's an evident flaw in that the later quartets were written for a different purpose to the earlier ones. The opus 71/74 set were consciously written for public performance in London, in a concert hall, after Haydn's previous experience, because the whole idea of public performances was developing at that time. Each of them starts with a loud and strong musical gesture so that the audience would shut up and listen. They are among the first works of 'chamber music' that aren't actually intended for a noble's chamber.

It's honestly very silly to torpedo the earliest works as being of 'historical interest' and yet ignore the importance of history to Haydn's later work. One of the reasons that Haydn's career is so important is that he straddles important societal changes. And he did it with damn good music, whether as a junior court musician, a Kapellmeister or the most famous composer in Europe.

Quote from: Florestan on April 15, 2022, 04:05:44 AM
Amen, brother!

Quote from: Jo498 on April 15, 2022, 04:42:46 AM
But op.76 has also the largest discography with many famous and excellent recordings. By now, we have a spectrum of good recordings for most quartets from op.20 on (although not all are as well served as op.20 or 76 and 77).
I don't share the enthusiasm about the Kodaly (although this is based only on a handful of their discs) but I think these recordings were valuable (especially at a time) when there was far as available and they were solid cheap option for getting to know the pieces or closing gaps. But I wouldn't recommend getting the lot unless very cheap. I wouldn't even recommend getting the Angeles although I prefer them (sometimes a bit generic but more lively than Kodaly) or the Buchberger (probably the cheapest, lively but rough and ready in intonation and sound).
It's also simply wrong (although I'd say that op.33 roughly corresponds to the "Paris" symphonies despite being 5 years earlier). Neither is it justified to ignore op.9 and 17, if only to appreciate the steps made with op.20+33. (I also prefer some pieces in op.9 and 17 to some in op.33 or even later works). While I would not claim huge significance for op.1+2 they are also enjoyable works.

Quote from: DavidW on April 15, 2022, 05:09:31 AM
When I first started listening to Haydn's SQs I really thought that after awhile I would only listen to Op 20 and later. I'm surprised to find that after all these years I still regularly listen to and enjoy the Op 9 and 17 string quartets.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 15, 2022, 09:12:22 AM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 15, 2022, 06:47:27 AM
Queuing up some "Papa" is never a bad suggestion:

https://www.youtube.com/v/SIu6gK4DIHg

Just what mine ears needed this morning, Davey, thanks!

Wow that was an incredible performance!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 15, 2022, 09:47:04 AM

I bought the first Haydn quartet discs in the mid-1990s (I might have had the "Emperor" before on a mixed sampler). Among the first few were a live recording with the Lindsays (ASV) and op.20,4-6 with Kodaly. Back then there was no complete box (except maybe the 1970s Aeolian but this was not always available and didn't have good reviews, the Kodaly series was still in progress and the Tatrai/hungaroton were rather expensive (mostly) 2-disc-sets)
I can't trace the whole collecting over more than 20 years but I had cobbled together most of the better known quartets when the light blue Angeles box appeared in the early 2000s.
I eventually bought it because it seemed an easy way to get the lot. ;)
Since then my vague goal has been to have in addition to the Angeles one recording on old instruments and another one on modern instruments. For some of the opus numbers with richer discography I kept more and for op.1+2 I have less.

What I kept (in addition to Angeles)
op.1 Petersen
op.9 Buchberger, Festetics (Arcana)
op.17 Auryn, Festetics (culled Kodaly with one half of them, that was decent but not really worth the space)
op.20 Hagen, Mosaiques, Tatrai (culled Festetics because Mosaiques seems clearly better and Kodaly 4-6 I found dull, especially in my fav #4)
op.33 Weller (in a box), Casals, Apponyi, Auryn (I am not totally happy with any of them, that's why I have so many, I culled Buchberger although it's not bad at all)
op.42 (Lindsay, on that early disc mentioned above)
op.50 Festetics (until LHQ the only HIP), Amati, (culled the solid Nomos that seemed a bit dry compared to the others)
op.54 Amadeus (another cheap box) , Juilliard, Festetics (culled the solid Endellion and Smithson (only 1+2, short disc too much space)
op.55 Amadeus, Festetics, Panocha
op.64 Festetics, one half of Mosaiques (prefer them to Festetics but the 2nd disc is impossibly expensive), Amadeus (box), "Caspar da Salo" (on supercheap PILZ) + several "larks"
op.71 Auryn (in their older recording), Griller, Amadeus, Festetics
op.74 Griller, Amadeus, Festetics + several "riders"
op.76 Carmina, Tatrai, Mosaiques 1/2 with ABQ and Eder and some more of this one in anthologies
op.77 Mosaiques, Kuijken and some in anthologies

+ the historical Pro Arte (when it came out in a cheap box although I honestly don't get what's so great about them)
+ some singles/anthologies with Juilliard, Jerusalem, Hagen, Lindsay, Schuppanzigh

Of course, since I basically stopped collecting these works, the LHQ and several other recordings, Doric, whatever appeared but mostly of the opus numbers I already felt provided quite well with.
I am not as great a fan of the Amadeus and Festetics as it might seem but the latter were almost the only game in town on old instruments for many works in the early 2000s when I bought them and the Amadeus were in a cheap slim box I kept for convenience. I don't love their first violin, they have their high points and often good energy and expression; like the Lindsay they have faults but generic lively elegant Haydn is not one of them. I like the Auryn and they have very good sound but didn't find them great enough to shell out for their other volumes. Same goes for the Leipzig (except I didn't even shell out for a single volume...) It seems hard to avoid some genericity when recording such a huge body of work in a comparably short time.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 15, 2022, 10:58:43 AM

Oh the Griller Quartet! Their Op 77 is truly dynamite!!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: amw on April 15, 2022, 12:29:50 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on April 15, 2022, 08:59:55 AM
Haydn's String Quartets - over the last few days in the 'listening thread', there has been a LOT posted on various performances of these works (see all of the 'quotes' at the bottom) - believe that I've gathered most of them for posterity in this more dedicated thread on Papa. Obviously, MIs vs. PIs enters the discussion, plus support (for or against) certain groups dominates the discussion. Of the PI groups, the London Haydn Quartet (LHQ) has received little respect (raked across the coals in ClassicsToday by Hurwitz et al), and seems generally not liked in the forum from the comments below.

I am a LHQ partisan, although one of very few on here. They're popular among other musicians I know, and not very popular among non-musician classical listeners. No idea why. We've been over this I think though.

Right now I'm listening to the Kodály and Fine Arts Quartets in op. 50 no. 3, and liking both of them a lot, even if intonation is at times sketchy. (But then I also have and like the Lindsay Quartet non-integral—only op. 20 thru 77—which has the same problem.) Haydn is largely indestructible, I guess.

I may explore the Fine Arts recordings a bit more just out of curiosity.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 15, 2022, 01:17:11 PM

Thanks Guys for the comments - impressive collection Jo... - I had the Buchberger box but culled it from my collection a while back, probably when I started to buy the LHQ recordings. Dave :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 15, 2022, 02:14:20 PM

Now trying the Petersen in op.1/1. I'd just seen them as an option on Idagio and then read it was Jo's choice.

It sounds pretty good. A bit livelier than the Auryn. Not sure I actually want it QUITE that lively, but clearly a good performance.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: staxomega on April 15, 2022, 04:54:37 PM

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on April 15, 2022, 06:47:27 AM
Queuing up some "Papa" is never a bad suggestion:

https://www.youtube.com/v/SIu6gK4DIHg

Just what mine ears needed this morning, Davey, thanks!

Instead of calling him papa, would saying "yes daddy!" when listening to Haydn be too lewd :-*

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 16, 2022, 12:09:06 AM

Have the Fine Arts recordings (AFAIS opp.50,64,74,76) ever been on CD or download? I only see LPs of them...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 16, 2022, 06:22:52 AM

Quote from: amw on April 15, 2022, 12:29:50 PM
I am a LHQ partisan, although one of very few on here. They're popular among other musicians I know, and not very popular among non-musician classical listeners. No idea why. We've been over this I think though.

Right now I'm listening to the Kodály and Fine Arts Quartets in op. 50 no. 3, and liking both of them a lot, even if intonation is at times sketchy. (But then I also have and like the Lindsay Quartet non-integral—only op. 20 thru 77—which has the same problem.) Haydn is largely indestructible, I guess.

I may explore the Fine Arts recordings a bit more just out of curiosity.

I almost never comment on recordings because like or not like is far too subjective. Also. I don't listen to MI recordings so I don't have an opinion. I do have every PI recording ever made though, AFAIK, so I do have a basis to choose from. My first choice is Festetics, their total ambiance is right in my ideal. LHQ is my second choice. When they started with Op. 9, I felt they were too stiff and formal, they sounded like a typical MI band. But by the time they got to Op. 20 they got it figured out and have been great ever since.

Most of my favorite disks for casual listening, which is really more representative of real life, are the non- opus number based groupings by the Schoppanzigh quartet, or the Amsterdam quartet. Since no one here appears to know the Salomon quartet I won't bring them up, but some of their renditions are among my favorites, like their Op. 50...

🤠😎

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 16, 2022, 06:35:48 AM

To be clear, it was in op.9 that I found the LHQ awful. They were less egregious in later samples, though still not really to my taste.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: amw on April 16, 2022, 06:46:55 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on April 16, 2022, 12:09:06 AM
Have the Fine Arts recordings (AFAIS opp.50,64,74,76) ever been on CD or download? I only see LPs of them...

They recorded everything from op. 1 to 103 which are currently available as lossless download from Qobuz, Presto and a few other sites.

These versions of the recordings do sound a bit shrill though, which I wasn't sure whether was a fault with the ensemble or with the recording quality. I gave up around Op. 54.

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 16, 2022, 06:22:52 AM
I almost never comment on recordings because like or not like is far too subjective. Also. I don't listen to MI recordings so I don't have an opinion. I do have every PI recording ever made though, AFAIK, so I do have a basis to choose from. My first choice is Festetics, their total ambiance is right in my ideal. LHQ is my second choice. When they started with Op. 9, I felt they were too stiff and formal, they sounded like a typical MI band. But by the time they got to Op. 20 they got it figured out and have been great ever since.

Most of my favorite disks for casual listening, which is really more representative of real life, are the non- opus number based groupings by the Schoppanzigh quartet, or the Amsterdam quartet. Since no one here appears to know the Salomon quartet I won't bring them up, but some of their renditions are among my favorites, like their Op. 50...

🤠😎

The LHQ recordings of the early quartets, op. 9, 17 and 20 (and 33 to some extent), are very strict in their classicising interpretations, which is apparently intentional and based on the editions they're using (which also suggest that Haydn wanted slower tempi, among other things—another common objection to their playing). I will agree that the most essential aspects of their recordings for me, which is the sense of exploration and fun and improvisation and being carried away by the music at the cost of some technical security, don't really pop up until around op. 33 or thereabouts. To be clear, this is an impression and probably intentional—they are, presumably, capable of playing the music completely straight, any unevenness in the playing does seem like a true aesthetic choice—but I understand why people don't like them, at the same time. For Op. 9 and 17 I did also invest in the Festetics as alternatives, which are probably more appealing to most people (and which I admittedly listen to more often).

I'm not a fan of either the Schuppanzigh or the Salomon Quartets in Haydn, for the same reason I'm not a fan of the Tátrais: intonation issues, particularly in the higher register, which for me are also worsened by the specific historically informed pitch the two first ensembles choose. People do also criticise the LHQ on intonation grounds but for whatever reason they strike me as intonation-perfect given a non-equal-tempered, non-A440 pitch space, whereas the Salomons don't, and I have no data to back up exactly why that is. I guess it does all come down to taste and, in my case, synaesthesia.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 16, 2022, 07:06:05 AM

FWIW, I have four complete sets (Aeolian, Angeles, Kodaly and Buchberger) and one incomplete one (Mosaiques). I've never listened to any one of them in their entirety, let alone made any A/B/C/D/E comparison --- first, I have no time for that, second I have no technical knowledge for that and last but not least I have no interest for that. My favorite set is whatever set I listen to at any given time.

With that caveat in mind, I venture to say that imho Haydn's entire body of SQs might not the finest ever penned --- there is strong competition from Mozart and Beethoven --- but it's certainly the largest body of fine and very fine SQs ever penned. (Ditto for his symphonies, piano sonatas and piano trios).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: staxomega on April 17, 2022, 07:30:18 PM

Quote from: Florestan on April 16, 2022, 07:06:05 AM
My favorite set is whatever set I listen to at any given time.

This is my impression as well, it seems like the quality of Haydn SQ recordings seem to be pretty high. Of all the recordings I've bought over the years I don't find myself wanting to compare them but just enjoy them instead. With that said I have only heard some of the more controversial ones like LHQ in passing and couldn't speak about them. After my big exploration of cycles I hadn't heard a couple of years ago (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,30189.msg1318453.html#msg1318453), and playing Auryn Quartet now ~3.5 times the way through these have now become my default go to replacing Festetics.

On the other hand with Beethoven, Shostakovich, Bartok, Schoenberg SQs I find there is a large variability in quality of interpretations.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 18, 2022, 05:54:49 AM

Quote from: hvbias on April 17, 2022, 07:30:18 PM
and playing Auryn Quartet now ~3.5 times the way through these have now become my default go to replacing Festetics.

Yeah the Auryn Quartet are really superb. They can find so much nuance and color that others miss. They have such perfect tempos, neither fever pitched nor draggy. I just relistened to their Op 20 string quartets and wow that performance is just so good!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 18, 2022, 12:42:40 PM

Are the Auryn PI?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 18, 2022, 12:53:09 PM

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on April 18, 2022, 12:42:40 PM
Are the Auryn PI?

Nope! Not at all!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: staxomega on April 21, 2022, 08:20:37 AM

Quote from: DavidW on April 18, 2022, 05:54:49 AM
Yeah the Auryn Quartet are really superb. They can find so much nuance and color that others miss. They have such perfect tempos, neither fever pitched nor draggy. I just relistened to their Op 20 string quartets and wow that performance is just so good!

My general impression of the cycle as a whole is it's a balanced cycle like Festetics, but Auryn just had a bit "more" like that color you mention.

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on April 18, 2022, 12:42:40 PM
Are the Auryn PI?

Modern instruments, but they are clearly informed performances.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 21, 2022, 01:20:04 PM

I think the Auryn are going to edge out the Petersen as my op.1 choice. But they're both really good.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 22, 2022, 04:10:29 AM

Question: who actually has op.2 available as a discrete set, or coupled just with op.1?

There don't seem to be that many cases of op.2 being available on its own or in a small collection, rather than a box of complete quartets.

I know about the Auryn, the Buchbergers (opp.1&2 together), the Tatrai (opp.1, 2, 42 and 103), the Kodaly once you put a few single discs together... and I think that's all the ones I'm aware of.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 22, 2022, 05:22:19 AM

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/715wAfd3KKL._SL1198_.jpg)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41nd3vypXjL._SX355_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 22, 2022, 05:22:47 AM

That's about it, I believe, except for some from the 1960s, mostly vinyl only, such as Schneider, Dekany, Fine Arts (the Vox series was combined of several ensembles)
There are only 4 quartets left as 2 works have been eliminated from op.2 for not being originally for string quartet, the Kodaly put these two together with the inauthentic op.3 and they have also been recorded as sextet versions for horns.
It's quite surprising that there is the separate op.1 with Petersen. Since op.1+2 have been re-sorted as "early divertimenti" with the "real quartets" only beginning with op.9 both Festetics and London Haydn Q have ignored them.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 22, 2022, 05:26:15 AM

Quote from: DavidW on April 22, 2022, 05:22:19 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41nd3vypXjL._SX355_.jpg)

This always puzzles me... are they doing them as an orchestra?

EDIT: Yes, yes they are. I found it on Idagio. About 10 seconds of the absolutely leaden "Presto" of op.1/1 was enough.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 22, 2022, 05:59:13 AM

Quote from: Madiel on April 22, 2022, 05:26:15 AM
This always puzzles me... are they doing them as an orchestra?

EDIT: Yes, yes they are. I found it on Idagio. About 10 seconds of the absolutely leaden "Presto" of op.1/1 was enough.

Ugh!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Valentino on April 22, 2022, 07:40:28 AM

I inherited a Karajan Schöpfung on LP some time ago. I'm rather ambivalent to Karajan; too many recordings carpet bombing the market. So I just shelved it.
Took it out yesterday. Oh, this is good i thought! Looked at the credits: Janowitz, FiDi, Wunderlich etc. So there. A Karajan jewel.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 22, 2022, 07:47:05 AM

Yes I managed to find the worst Haydn recording ever! Go me! :D

I think even Gurn never asked for Op 1-2 SQs rearranged for orchestra and played laboriously.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 22, 2022, 07:48:52 AM

Quote from: Valentino on April 22, 2022, 07:40:28 AM
I inherited a Karajan Schöpfung on LP some time ago. I'm rather ambivalent to Karajan; too many recordings carpet bombing the market. So I just shelved it.
Took it out yesterday. Oh, this is good i thought! Looked at the credits: Janowitz, FiDi, Wunderlich etc. So there. A Karajan jewel.

The best Creation ever recorded.

(https://i.discogs.com/Fzt_MYfY6H0_JdMs0czCj4lBINo-Vn5xMGmncbXhrhI/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:600/w:598/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTQ1MTUy/NzgtMTYzODA2OTk0/OS04MDMzLmpwZWc.jpeg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 22, 2022, 07:53:32 AM

Quote from: DavidW on April 22, 2022, 07:47:05 AM
Yes I managed to find the worst Haydn recording ever! Go me! :D

I think even Gurn never asked for Op 1-2 SQs rearranged for orchestra and played laboriously.

Yeah, I have that set, meh. Since there are no PI recording of these works except for a superb single by
Piccolo Concerto Wien, I use the Buchbergers, which happily turns out to be one of the best opuses of their cycle.

🤠😎

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on April 22, 2022, 09:15:39 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 22, 2022, 07:48:52 AM
The best Creation ever recorded.

(https://i.discogs.com/Fzt_MYfY6H0_JdMs0czCj4lBINo-Vn5xMGmncbXhrhI/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:600/w:598/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTQ1MTUy/NzgtMTYzODA2OTk0/OS04MDMzLmpwZWc.jpeg)

Yes, but it is it the best recording ever created? ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 22, 2022, 12:42:41 PM

Quote from: Florestan on April 22, 2022, 07:48:52 AM
The best Creation ever recorded.

(https://i.discogs.com/Fzt_MYfY6H0_JdMs0czCj4lBINo-Vn5xMGmncbXhrhI/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:600/w:598/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTQ1MTUy/NzgtMTYzODA2OTk0/OS04MDMzLmpwZWc.jpeg)

Those are fighting words. *pulls out his Gardiner recording*

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: André on April 22, 2022, 04:22:48 PM

I happen to prefer Karajan's later recording with the WP - a superb version IMO. Also at the top of my list : Karl Frorster (EMI) and Paul Griffiths (Nightingale). I don't think I've heard Gardiner ?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 22, 2022, 04:38:53 PM

Yes I love Gardiner, like McCreesh, and recently really enjoyed Savall (which came out only last year). And here is an old favorite of mine:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzkzNTc2MS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NzExMjUwMTZ9)
(https://theclassicreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/Haydn-The-Creation-Jordi-Savall-1200-850.jpg)

Finally let's not forget Hogwood!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: staxomega on April 22, 2022, 05:12:05 PM

Quote from: Florestan on April 22, 2022, 07:48:52 AM
The best Creation ever recorded.

(https://i.discogs.com/Fzt_MYfY6H0_JdMs0czCj4lBINo-Vn5xMGmncbXhrhI/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:600/w:598/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTQ1MTUy/NzgtMTYzODA2OTk0/OS04MDMzLmpwZWc.jpeg)

Only because Giulini didn't record it 0:)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: amw on April 22, 2022, 09:15:03 PM

Quote from: DavidW on April 22, 2022, 04:38:53 PM
Yes I love Gardiner, like McCreesh, and recently really enjoyed Savall (which came out only last year). And here is an old favorite of mine:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzkzNTc2MS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NzExMjUwMTZ9)

I should get that. But I really don't like the music very much (so far in my life, anyway).

(Alternatively, perhaps Spering is what I need to turn my opinion around. I've heard Karajan and Gardiner before, I think, plus whoever recorded it for Vivarte.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Valentino on April 22, 2022, 11:14:54 PM

Quote from: Madiel on April 22, 2022, 12:42:41 PM
Those are fighting words. *pulls out his Gardiner recording*

That's the other one I like. The sequence leeading up to Und es war Licht! is fun to present to the unårepared.
I also have Jacobs which was a let down after his Jahrezeiten.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 23, 2022, 12:26:30 AM

Quote from: Valentino on April 22, 2022, 11:14:54 PM
That's the other one I like. The sequence leeading up to Und es war Licht! is fun to present to the unårepared.
I also have Jacobs which was a let down after his Jahrezeiten.

Look, I honestly think that sequence is one of the most genius things in all music. If you can make a C major chord sound like THAT you're one of the great composers.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on April 23, 2022, 06:08:22 AM

Quote from: amw on April 22, 2022, 09:15:03 PM
I should get that. But I really don't like the music very much (so far in my life, anyway).

(Alternatively, perhaps Spering is what I need to turn my opinion around. I've heard Karajan and Gardiner before, I think, plus whoever recorded it for Vivarte.)

I listened to it for the first time ever in February in the new Savall recording, on blast level volume while driving. As a nonreligious person, the subject matter in itself isn't interesting to me, which meant that structurally it was repetitious and a little bit predictable. (Am guessing the form was very old fashioned for its time.) But the beginning and especially the last 15 minutes had passages of total genius that lit up all the parts of my brain. I'll try a few more times, perhaps comparing to the other recommendations here, before making a sacrilegious "highlights reel" playlist of the best bits ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 23, 2022, 06:51:17 AM

Brian, you do make me smile ....

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 23, 2022, 07:12:07 AM

Quote from: DavidW on April 22, 2022, 04:38:53 PM
Yes I love Gardiner, like McCreesh, and recently really enjoyed Savall (which came out only last year). And here is an old favorite of mine:

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzkzNTc2MS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NzExMjUwMTZ9) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41OO3us7lXL.jpg)

Finally let's not forget Hogwood!

LOL! :laugh: As usual everyone has their favs - above are the two I own at the moment (have culled out a number over the years but cannot remember which ones? ???) - Dave

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 23, 2022, 07:16:07 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on April 23, 2022, 07:12:07 AM
(have culled out a number over the years but cannot remember which ones? ???) - Dave

Nah you just don't want to tell us that you culled Karajan and Gardiner! :laugh:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Olias on April 23, 2022, 07:23:29 AM

Don't know if this was covered before and I didn't want to read through a bajillion pages, but last year Decca reissued Marriner's Haydn recordings in a lovely box set with the original artwork and a nice book. I've really been enjoying them a lot, especially the Paris symphonies which are giving my favorites (Bernstein/NY) some competition. They are on modern instruments but with historical interpretation. Anyone else enjoying these?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: André on April 23, 2022, 07:36:17 AM

Quote from: Olias on April 23, 2022, 07:23:29 AM
Don't know if this was covered before and I didn't want to read through a bajillion pages, but last year Decca reissued Marriner's Haydn recordings in a lovely box set with the original artwork and a nice book. I've really been enjoying them a lot, especially the Paris symphonies which are giving my favorites (Bernstein/NY) some competition. They are on modern instruments but with historical interpretation. Anyone else enjoying these?

Many here (me included) have bought this Marriner set the minute it came out. I used to play the LPs and cassettes non stop. Marriner was my introduction to the pre-London symphonies.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Olias on April 23, 2022, 08:37:08 AM

Quote from: André on April 23, 2022, 07:36:17 AM
Many here (me included) have bought this Marriner set the minute it came out. I used to play the LPs and cassettes non stop. Marriner was my introduction to the pre-London symphonies.

Ah, that would explain it being on backorder the week I purchased it. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 23, 2022, 08:38:25 AM

Quote from: DavidW on April 23, 2022, 07:16:07 AM
Nah you just don't want to tell us that you culled Karajan and Gardiner! :laugh:

(* chortle *)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 23, 2022, 08:38:55 AM

Quote from: Olias on April 23, 2022, 07:23:29 AM
Don't know if this was covered before and I didn't want to read through a bajillion pages, but last year Decca reissued Marriner's Haydn recordings in a lovely box set with the original artwork and a nice book. I've really been enjoying them a lot, especially the Paris symphonies which are giving my favorites (Bernstein/NY) some competition. They are on modern instruments but with historical interpretation. Anyone else enjoying these?

Yes, indeed.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on April 23, 2022, 03:19:49 PM

Quote from: Olias on April 23, 2022, 07:23:29 AM
Don't know if this was covered before and I didn't want to read through a bajillion pages, but last year Decca reissued Marriner's Haydn recordings in a lovely box set with the original artwork and a nice book. I've really been enjoying them a lot, especially the Paris symphonies which are giving my favorites (Bernstein/NY) some competition. They are on modern instruments but with historical interpretation. Anyone else enjoying these?

Good to see the Marriner recordings being re-evaluated. For years these recordings were snubbed for not being HIP and for, well, being part of Marriner's copious recording output.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Olias on April 23, 2022, 04:57:03 PM

Quote from: Daverz on April 23, 2022, 03:19:49 PM
Good to see the Marriner recordings being re-evaluated. For years these recordings were snubbed for not being HIP and for, well, being part of Marriner's copious recording output.

I never heard the original releases on LP so I just recently listened to them for the first time. I've really been enjoying them.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 23, 2022, 05:18:49 PM

Quote from: Olias on April 23, 2022, 04:57:03 PM
I never heard the original releases on LP so I just recently listened to them for the first time. I've really been enjoying them.

Ditto.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Biffo on April 24, 2022, 02:47:17 AM

Quote from: Olias on April 23, 2022, 07:23:29 AM
Don't know if this was covered before and I didn't want to read through a bajillion pages, but last year Decca reissued Marriner's Haydn recordings in a lovely box set with the original artwork and a nice book. I've really been enjoying them a lot, especially the Paris symphonies which are giving my favorites (Bernstein/NY) some competition. They are on modern instruments but with historical interpretation. Anyone else enjoying these?

I have been listening to the Marriner set at the rate of one symphony per day over the last few weeks and greatly enjoying them - finished yesterday.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 24, 2022, 07:47:42 AM

I only know the "Paris" set with Marriner (except for 2 other single discs most of the others were never separately on CD) and my shelves are too saturated with Haydn symphonies to get that biggish box. But the Paris are probably my favorite "modern chamber orchestra" version and really excellent in pieces like 85 and 87.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Olias on April 24, 2022, 08:17:45 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on April 24, 2022, 07:47:42 AM
my shelves are too saturated with Haydn symphonies

Huh? Does not compute... MUST....HAVE....MORE....HAYDN.... ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 24, 2022, 08:37:00 AM

It's also not cheap at all here, 75 EUR; I might consider it for 30. I don't see a full list of the included symphonies but I'd guess I have between 3 (for e.g. 6-8) and 8 (for "Military" or "Bear") recordings of these pieces. And I know from the ones I have and Marriner's general style that I don't really need this.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 27, 2022, 10:10:14 PM

It seems that the Festetics (Arcana) box of the quartets is about to be re-released, around the end of May. I've seen several indications.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2022, 05:58:06 AM

Quote from: Madiel on April 27, 2022, 10:10:14 PM
It seems that the Festetics (Arcana) box of the quartets is about to be re-released, around the end of May. I've seen several indications.

If that is indeed true it will be the 4th time since its original release, and yet it can still be a challenge to find. Although not so much as when I bought the chubby boxes of 2 or 3 disks each. Back then the original release was ancient history but the second wasn't thought of yet. It took months and cost a fortune, but I finally was sated. :)

🤠😎

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 28, 2022, 07:01:01 AM

To me the best form of the Festetics were the digipack double boxes. They were re-issued around 2009 in separate volumes for a reasonable price (midprice or so), so one could close gaps or pick opus numbers one was most interested in. (I have or had about half of their series in these separate (and one older "fat case") volumes:
opp.9,17,20,50,54,55,64,71,74)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2022, 08:33:17 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on April 28, 2022, 07:01:01 AM
To me the best form of the Festetics were the digipack double boxes. They were re-issued around 2009 in separate volumes for a reasonable price (midprice or so), so one could close gaps or pick opus numbers one was most interested in. (I have or had about half of their series in these separate (and one older "fat case") volumes:
opp.9,17,20,50,54,55,64,71,74)

Yes, I have one digipak (Op. 50). I do like it better, but not enough to make me replace the chubbies. Someone who has it could probably tell me if any booklets came with the Big Box... ?

🤠😎

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 28, 2022, 01:50:08 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2022, 08:33:17 AM
Yes, I have one digipak (Op. 50). I do like it better, but not enough to make me replace the chubbies. Someone who has it could probably tell me if any booklets came with the Big Box... ?

🤠😎

Well I can tell you yes because the booklet is supplied digitally on Idagio. And it seems quite a good booklet. For one thing it explains why they don't play the 'traditional' number order in some opuses and correct it to an order that Haydn knew about.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 28, 2022, 02:38:00 PM

Quote from: Madiel on April 28, 2022, 01:50:08 PM
Well I can tell you yes because the booklet is supplied digitally on Idagio. And it seems quite a good booklet. For one thing it explains why they don't play the 'traditional' number order in some opuses and correct it to an order that Haydn knew about.

Yeah, the books are great, that's one of the things I like about Arcana. But sometimes box sets are released with no books at all, which sucks. An example right from Haydn is the Hogwood symphonies box, which I'm told has no booklet at all, but the originals had each a superb book by James Webster. That's just sad.

Thanks for your reply!
🤠😎

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 28, 2022, 02:47:43 PM

Not quite accurate. The Hogwood box has a booklet but it only has 4 pages of notes, and they are more about Hogwood than Haydn. I know what you mean about the original notes because you shared them with me, which I'm VERY grateful for.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 28, 2022, 05:32:21 PM

The more I listen to the Auryn quartet the more I like them.

I still would prefer a SLIGHTLY less resonant acoustic, maybe it varies between opuses as well. But there's a heck of a lot to like in the playing.

I randomly started op.9 with number 5. I liked the Festetics until I got to the Largo. I couldn't handle the tone in the Largo (low vibrato among other things, but also felt that the cello part was way too prominent in sections ). Not a fan of the Buchbergers with intonation and recording. Briefly sampled Tatrai... intonation. The Kodaly more in my style in the Largo, but... the Auryn brought more to the first couple of movements as well.

I'll try some more of op.9, but at this stage I'm feeling I'll be hunting down the Auryn for at least 1,2 and 9.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 28, 2022, 11:50:17 PM

The annoying thing about the Auryn is that there seems still no commonly available box set. (I have it on reasonable authority from a person associated with the same Musikhochschule as the Auryns that there was a locally available decently priced box at their concerts there...) and that Tacet choose to price single discs (like op.54 or 74) the same as double discs. Even 12 or more years after they appearance these singles are pricey...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 29, 2022, 12:49:01 AM

Yeah well. I'm the kind of person who is prepared to pay for what I genuinely want so it doesn't bother me much. Paying hundreds of dollars for a disc would bother me, but paying "full price" doesn't.

Possibly this might have something to do with me generally only purchasing one version of something instead of several. I admit I have a shockingly high number of versions of the Bach Cello Suites (4). I can foresee a future where multiple versions of Haydn quartets creep into my collection as well, but right now I'm only attempting to get one copy of each opus.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 29, 2022, 03:29:00 AM

I understand that around the anniversary 2009 Tacet might have thought it a good idea to have some as "twofers"/teasers and the others as full price (but I disliked the inconsistency even then although I almost immediately bought their op.33). The label was also one of the very few to offer DVD Audio, a tiny audiophile niche, AFAIK. But 13 years later with physical discs waning, they should have reconsidered this. Anyway, if I had liked their op.33 more and didn't have already 2-5 or more recordings of most Haydn quartets, I'd probably have bought more of their series despite the price...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on April 29, 2022, 06:26:17 AM

I was able to find the Auryn series at Europadisc for $13-14 US each (excluding VAT), and they had perhaps mistakenly priced the two CD sets the same as individual discs. At that point I jumped and bought the whole series. The Tacet label seems very small and not interested in things like boxes.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: staxomega on April 29, 2022, 07:35:26 AM

Quote from: Brian on April 29, 2022, 06:26:17 AM
I was able to find the Auryn series at Europadisc for $13-14 US each (excluding VAT), and they had perhaps mistakenly priced the two CD sets the same as individual discs. At that point I jumped and bought the whole series. The Tacet label seems very small and not interested in things like boxes.

Wow, enjoy! I sort of understand their hardline stance on not doing box sets. I am waiting to see if BIS will box up the recent Zimmermann Beethoven Violin Sonatas, I like these performances, but I'm not in love with them like some of my favorites from the previous century. If BIS didn't do box sets I might have bought the individual discs. Same story with Brautigam's miscellaneous Beethoven box, the only must have for me in that was Diabelli Variations, but a box priced only a bit more than a single disc made it an easy decision and I came to enjoy many other performances in the box.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 29, 2022, 08:53:27 AM

Quote from: Brian on April 29, 2022, 06:26:17 AM
I was able to find the Auryn series at Europadisc for $13-14 US each (excluding VAT), and they had perhaps mistakenly priced the two CD sets the same as individual discs.

As I wrote above, this seems to have been the case from the beginning. Each volume costs the same, roughly as much as a full price disc (so $14 is a pretty good deal, could be around EUR 20 at more expensive sellers) but often there are two discs (such as op.9,17,20,33 etc.) in one volume. So roughly half of them are twofers, half of them expensive singles.
If I really loved the ones I heard, I'd probably gotten more. But I re-listen to most of their op.33 last year in comparison with a few others and again found them good, but mostly not great. Good enough to keep but it doesn't make me jump for more at comparably steep prices. They managed to make what might be my favorite movement from op.33, the first one of #3, slightly boring and they are just too lame in the finale of the b minor (not meant as cherrypicking but the two faults that I remembered, maybe they were better in some of the others but the b minor and C major happen to be my favorites of op.33). I also have their op.17 but it's too long I listened to that one.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 29, 2022, 03:12:13 PM

Of the ones that I listened to, it's the op.1 I like the best. I didn't like them as much in opuses where there was stiff competition. But the op.1 also strikes me as livelier as some of their other performances.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Valentino on April 30, 2022, 01:21:21 AM

My op. 50 is by the Festetics.
Not my kind of musicianship I'm afraid.
Maybe it's time to find a recording I'll pull out to enjoy.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 30, 2022, 01:25:58 AM

Quote from: Valentino on April 30, 2022, 01:21:21 AM
My op. 50 is by the Festetics.
Not my kind of musicianship I'm afraid.
Maybe it's time to find a recording I'll pull out to enjoy.

For op.50 I have the Amati Quartet.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81FJYhjRx7L._SS500_.jpg)

Others I'd suggest trying are the Nomos Quartet, and if you can find them the old Tokyo Quartet recordings are very widely praised. The Tokyo might only be something that you can get on streaming/download/CD-R, if that bothers you.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Valentino on April 30, 2022, 01:32:37 AM

Thanks.
Download is fine. I rip all cds anyway.
Also found Nomos on Spotify.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 30, 2022, 05:46:42 AM

Quote from: Madiel on April 30, 2022, 01:25:58 AM
For op.50 I have the Amati Quartet.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81FJYhjRx7L._SS500_.jpg)

Others I'd suggest trying are the Nomos Quartet, and if you can find them the old Tokyo Quartet recordings are very widely praised. The Tokyo might only be something that you can get on streaming/download/CD-R, if that bothers you.

I like that Amati, one of the few non-HIP recordings I still listen to, and another is the Tokyo. For HIPpies Op 50 is the best of the series by the Salomon Quartet, but LHQ also does a very nice job with it. I was rather underwhelmed by Festetics here, sad to say 😔.

🤠😎

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 30, 2022, 05:59:35 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 30, 2022, 05:46:42 AM
I like that Amati, one of the few non-HIP recordings I still listen to, and another is the Tokyo. For HIPpies Op 50 is the best of the series by the Salomon Quartet, but LHQ also does a very nice job with it. I was rather underwhelmed by Festetics here, sad to say 😔.

🤠😎

Well good luck with that if you don't already own them. Both ensembles are on Hyperion records whose business model is let most of their catalog go OOP on cd, don't stream anything and maybe make some of the catalog available as downloads directly on their website (which most people wouldn't think to check). I wouldn't be surprised if the Salomon Quartet set is already out of print.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on April 30, 2022, 07:48:34 AM

Quote from: DavidW on April 30, 2022, 05:59:35 AM
Well good luck with that if you don't already own them. Both ensembles are on Hyperion records whose business model is let most of their catalog go OOP on cd, don't stream anything and maybe make some of the catalog available as downloads directly on their website (which most people wouldn't think to check). I wouldn't be surprised if the Salomon Quartet set is already out of print.

Going by Amazon pricing, it is, but some cheap used copies are available.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 30, 2022, 08:34:47 AM

Quote from: JBS on April 30, 2022, 07:48:34 AM
Going by Amazon pricing, it is, but some cheap used copies are available.

That's how I got the entire cycle. Except for Op 77, which I downloaded the FLAC's from Hyperion. Gotta really watch out for CD's of that vintage from them, it's right in the heart of the bronze disk era.

🤠😎

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 30, 2022, 10:10:04 AM

I've been relistening to Haydn's symphonies and just have to say the 24th symphony is simply glorious! If you haven't heard it in awhile, give it a spin. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on April 30, 2022, 11:35:46 AM

I never had any problems with bronzed disks. I had some that looked as if they had been sitting on the beach for hours, day after day, but this didn't affect the playback. I sold them just to be on the safe side ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on April 30, 2022, 11:49:24 AM

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on April 30, 2022, 11:35:46 AM
I never had any problems with bronzed disks. I had some that looked as if they had been sitting on the beach for hours, day after day, but this didn't affect the playback. I sold them just to be on the safe side ;)

I sure have! But with Hyperion I just wrote to them and they asked for the numbers on the hub of the disk and then they sent me links to download the FLAC's. They knew it was messed up, they just verified that I actually had it. All very civilized. They couldn't send me a replacement because it had been OOP for years.

🤠😎

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 30, 2022, 01:36:48 PM

Quote from: Valentino on April 30, 2022, 01:21:21 AM
My op. 50 is by the Festetics.
Not my kind of musicianship I'm afraid.
Maybe it's time to find a recording I'll pull out to enjoy.

Hi Valentino - although I own most of the Festetics, not in Op. 50 - have the first two below, but that last one's cover art is tempting me! :laugh: Dave

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91liGQ0OrPL._AC_UY218_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81x6X1+f2PL._SL1200_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71rskFFbTLL._SL1200_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Valentino on April 30, 2022, 10:54:35 PM

Zaïde is a winner!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on May 01, 2022, 04:10:16 AM

How do people generally feel about the Leipziger recordings? They've been jumping about in the opuses in much of their (as yet incomplete) series.

I'm trying out op.17 at the moment (where they didn't jump about), and initial impression is quite good from the first couple of movements of op.17/2. Not for the old instruments crowd as far as I can tell? But with a performance style that seems at least somewhat HIP informed.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51tRAPuc55L._SX300_SY300_QL70_FMwebp_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71I+T4r0VeL._SX425_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on May 01, 2022, 05:20:36 AM

Quote from: Madiel on May 01, 2022, 04:10:16 AM
How do people generally feel about the Leipziger recordings? They've been jumping about in the opuses in much of their (as yet incomplete) series.

I'm trying out op.17 at the moment (where they didn't jump about), and initial impression is quite good from the first couple of movements of op.17/2. Not for the old instruments crowd as far as I can tell? But with a performance style that seems at least somewhat HIP informed.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51tRAPuc55L._SX300_SY300_QL70_FMwebp_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71I+T4r0VeL._SX425_.jpg)

I don't have any of their Haydn, but I have their complete cycle of Schubert, and I like their style and sound. If I wasn't part of the old instruments crowd I would certainly give their Haydn a try. :)

🤠😎

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on May 01, 2022, 05:34:44 AM

Leipzig SQ is one of my favorite ensembles, I didn't realize they've recorded Haydn before! I'll have to check it out.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on May 01, 2022, 05:45:01 AM

Quote from: DavidW on May 01, 2022, 05:34:44 AM
Leipzig SQ is one of my favorite ensembles, I didn't realize they've recorded Haydn before! I'll have to check it out.

They're up to 13 or 14 volumes now. Though all only single discs I think.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: amw on May 01, 2022, 08:17:25 AM

I don't think their Haydn lives up to the standards set by their Mozart, Beethoven and Schubert—partly because of the change in first violinist, partly because it can feel at times almost like sight reading by an extremely good ensemble (due to somewhat of a lack of energy or large-scale shaping). That said, those initial standards were so high that their Haydn is still at least as good as that of the Kodaly or Tatrai or Angeles Quartets etc. I wouldn't necessarily criticise it if I didn't know they were capable of better. (It may be worth waiting for the eventual box set. You can listen to almost every volume on Deezer I think, and potentially other streaming sites, to determine whether you like them.)

I also turned out not to be extremely fond of the Zaide Quartet's op. 50, which was in a style that would have worked well on period instruments, but sounded harsh and grating on modern ones. Think of the Apponyi Quartet's op. 33 and then exaggerate all of its mannerisms.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on May 02, 2022, 06:01:21 AM

The first violin has actually changed back again to who it was a few years earlier (but to the second person out of 3, not the very original). And the cellist has changed too.

So membership during the Haydn cycle varies!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on May 02, 2022, 06:08:03 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on April 30, 2022, 11:49:24 AM
I sure have! But with Hyperion I just wrote to them and they asked for the numbers on the hub of the disk and then they sent me links to download the FLAC's. They knew it was messed up, they just verified that I actually had it. All very civilized. They couldn't send me a replacement because it had been OOP for years.

🤠😎

Excellent customer service.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: amw on May 02, 2022, 06:24:31 AM

Quote from: Madiel on May 02, 2022, 06:01:21 AM
The first violin has actually changed back again to who it was a few years earlier (but to the second person out of 3, not the very original). And the cellist has changed too.

So membership during the Haydn cycle varies!

That's true. I was thinking of the loss of the original first violinist actually. There have just been numerous moments when I've been listening to a quartet and thinking "you know who would have phrased this first violin part better/had better intonation/etc? Andreas Seidel", or "how much did they rehearse this? it sounds great but where's the energy?" which is I guess something people also say from time to time about the Auryn Quartett or the Kodálys and so on. I guess the main fault there is that it's very hard to maintain every single Haydn quartet in your repertoire for a long period of time, because there are so many of them, so most of the ensembles recording complete cycles do wind up having to learn at least some quartets during the recording process.

I do think they're very good, though. I have almost every volume. But since their Beethoven is a top 5 cycle for me, their Brahms a top 3, etc., I was expecting "best ever", not merely "very good". That's probably unfair of me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on May 03, 2022, 05:23:28 AM

Righto, I've figured out who I want as my first go for opuses 1, 2, 9, 17 and 20...

That only leaves me with opuses 42, 77 and 103 to get. Which the Auryn and Leipziger are nice enough to package together for me. (EDIT: And the Lindsays, hmm...) Some others have 77 & 103 together but not op.42... any particularly good op.42 out there? Is it even worth it? :laugh:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: amw on May 03, 2022, 07:28:58 AM

I know this is an unhelpful answer, but I don't know Op. 42 much at all, and my go-to version of op. 77 is the Salomon Quartet (HIP, and one of their most in-tune volumes), which doesn't include it.

Listening to excerpts of my three versions of Op. 42, which are Auryn, Leipzig and Párkányi (paired with Op. 33), my very preliminary ranking is Párkányi = Auryn > Leipzig. This is largely based on my assessment of the character they each bring to the music: Párkányis are a bit slower and more expressive (with a bit more vibrato), Leipzigers are a bit more mannered, somewhat more top-heavy (quasi HIP-influenced), and Auryns take a middle path with their more characteristic mid-heavy sound, a bit more portamento and a bit less dynamic tapering at the end of each phrase. The latter version may wind up being the most successful on an emotional level but I obviously didn't listen to the entire quartet to make sure.

It may come down to which version of Op. 77 you prefer. I actually somewhat prefer the Leipzigers to the Auryns in that pair of quartets, though I obviously like both and wouldn't want to be without either.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on May 03, 2022, 07:44:07 AM

Just from the first part of op.77/1 I already concluded I like the Leipziger more than the Auryn there... I really find the resonant Auryn recording gets in the way a lot. It didn't in op.1 for some reason.

But the thing I've liked the best? The Mosaiques. I own the Mosaiques in op.33 and want them in op.20, and to be honest I'm tempted to throw money at all their Haydn even for opuses I have alternatives for.

I will go try Parkanyi.

Edit: Nope, can't find their op.77 online. Only half of op.33.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: amw on May 03, 2022, 08:24:04 AM

Quote from: Madiel on May 03, 2022, 07:44:07 AM
Just from the first part of op.77/1 I already concluded I like the Leipziger more than the Auryn there... I really find the resonant Auryn recording gets in the way a lot. It didn't in op.1 for some reason.

But the thing I've liked the best? The Mosaiques. I own the Mosaiques in op.33 and want them in op.20, and to be honest I'm tempted to throw money at all their Haydn even for opuses I have alternatives for.

I will go try Parkanyi.

Edit: Nope, can't find their op.77 online. Only half of op.33.

The Párkányi did not record op. 77 as far as I know. (Praga Digitals has released one op. 77 that I know of, which is by the Pražák Quartet, and is also excellent—but, like the Auryns, quite resonant, although unlike the Auryns interpretively.) Their op. 42 is paired with op. 33 and is the one I was referring to. I'm not sure if it can be found online though.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on May 03, 2022, 08:41:42 AM

Oh sorry I'm writing the wrong numbers. The accurate bit is that I only found one half of op.33. And not the half with op.42 attached.

Putting 42 with 33 seems reasonably common, and sensible.

Praga Digitals is terribly inconsistent about what's available to hear online.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: amw on May 03, 2022, 09:15:14 AM

Quote from: Madiel on May 03, 2022, 08:41:42 AM
Oh sorry I'm writing the wrong numbers. The accurate bit is that I only found one half of op.33. And not the half with op.42 attached.

Ah. Understood.

Their style is fairly consistent across the two opuses at least, so if you like the other half of their op. 33, the half with op. 42 attached is similar.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on May 04, 2022, 12:24:49 AM

Quote from: Madiel on May 03, 2022, 08:41:42 AM
Oh sorry I'm writing the wrong numbers. The accurate bit is that I only found one half of op.33. And not the half with op.42 attached.

Putting 42 with 33 seems reasonably common, and sensible.

I can't help with these recordings (I only have the Lindsays live and Angeles in the box) but op.42 is a strange piece and apparently still a bit of a mystery. It is very short, I think shorter even than the shortest of op.33, supposedly quite easy to play, not very emotional despite d minor and apparently the single case of an isolated quartet. I think there was a hypothesis that Haydn had written (or planned to) 3 short quartets "for Spain" and the other two got lost or were never written at all. The other idea is that it was Hoffmeister who asked both Mozart (K 499) and Haydn (op.42) for a single quartet for him to publish.
It's a nice piece but one probably needn't go out of one's way to get it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on May 04, 2022, 04:11:50 AM

I've seen both of those ideas, though from what I've read in some booklets the Hoffmeister idea has reasonably good evidence for it.

It might be a minor work in some ways, but I'll be damned if I'm going to deliberately leave one tiny hole in my quartet collection!

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have some calculations to do about the amount of money I'm prepared to throw at some permutation of the Mosaiques recordings... if only I'd been paying more attention when the 10-CD box came out, but I just wasn't ready for it then.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on May 04, 2022, 05:25:49 AM

Quote from: Madiel on May 04, 2022, 04:11:50 AM
Now, if you'll excuse me, I have some calculations to do about the amount of money I'm prepared to throw at some permutation of the Mosaiques recordings... if only I'd been paying more attention when the 10-CD box came out, but I just wasn't ready for it then.

Similar situation about 12 or 15 years ago. I think I had one or two volumes of the Mosaique when there appeared first two separate? and then the 10 disc box, so I passed. I eventually collected all of them but op.33 (which I don't think I need) and one half of op.64. The other half of op.64 usually goes for more than I want to pay. It's a pity they didn't record more than they did. But as for re-issues/used discs, the situation with their Mozart is "worse", expensive or impossible to find, I have only one disc of these, and the clarinet quintet (which is cheap for some reason, it's great, although I find the keyboard in the K 498 trio (source of my nick on that site here...) on the same disc too tinny.) It's a bit embarassing for what might be overall the most renowned HIP quartet of the last 30 years.

Of course you should get op.42 eventually, I just wouldn't make that one the arbiter for getting certain sets/discs you wouldn't want to get anyway.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on May 04, 2022, 06:24:15 AM

It's bizarre how much variation there is in listings, but... I think I've found a reliable copy of the 10-CD Mosaiques that is expensive but not insane. Though I've now realised this box was a complete repackaging - did all of the good liner notes survive the transition? Anyone have this version? I know people on the forum bought it... will post on another thread.

For the two separate 5-CD boxes (which is just the separate issues in slipcases), I've definitely found one of them from a seller I trust, and the other one there's a possible listing though I'm slightly more suspicious of its accuracy.

Of course, the volumes I most want are not in the same 5-CD box!

For the individual issues... well there's one person selling them all (including the one I don't need) for basically the same price as the 10-CD box. And then there are reasonably priced listings for some of them, and completely insane listings sometimes for the same ones... one half of op.64 seems to be particularly difficult.

Decisions. Need to sleep on it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on May 15, 2022, 04:05:23 AM

Does anyone know anything about Mozart's influence on Haydn's music?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on May 15, 2022, 06:53:17 AM

There are a bunch of movements one finds frequently quoted in this context, such as the first movement of K 428 -> op.64/6 and the finale of the abovementioned op.42 is sometimes connected with the finale of K 387 (although Haydn obviously had written contrapuntal finales in op.20 much earlier).
Others I have seen mentioned: allegretto slow movements in K 459 and op.54/1, slow movement of symphony #98 (as "Requiem for Mozart", not sure if or which specific Mozart piece is alluded to). The recurring slow intro Haydn uses in #103,i might also have been inspired by a similar technique in K 593,i although this would be one of the rare examples in which the Haydn example is more poetic/dramatic whereas the one by Mozart seems mostly a "technical" feat.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on May 15, 2022, 08:53:09 AM

Thanks for that. Op 64 and op 54 are cycles I really don't know at all, so there's something for me to explore there.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on May 15, 2022, 09:20:21 AM

FWIW, I think that many of these could be rather superficial. The allegretto second movements of K 459 and op.54/1, somewhat "bittersweet" and, IIRC in 6/8 time are both fairly unique or at least rare "types" that it seems likely to me.
I now recall the claim than op.64/4,i might have a thematic allusion to K 387,i

I am usually rather very about all kinds of quotes and allusions etc. And merely thematic allusion are a rather weak influence/connection (the more structural things are usually to deep for me, unless explained in detail, but the return/integration of a slow intro like in K 593 and Haydn #103 would be a structural case that's easy to spot)
Mozart and Haydn were obviously spatiotemporally and personally so close that it's more plausible than in many other cases. Rosen in the "Classical style" has one section "Haydn after Mozart's death" that might have a few more similarities or possible influences.
op.64/6 trio ("folksy" with an exposed violin solo) and finale seem to be taken up by one of Mozart's most Haydnesque pieces, the last string quintet that also has a very Haydn-like andante variation movement and the first movement recalls op.50/3 (although this could again be a superficial similarity of common musical language, tropes and "thematic bricks"

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on May 16, 2022, 10:26:18 AM

Op 64/1 seems really hard to pull off, does anyone know a good recorded one?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on May 17, 2022, 12:13:38 AM

op.64/1 is rather un-Mozartean, IMO. The "problem" here is lack of contrast, partly because the first 3 movements often appear to be roughly the same tempo, the first two even start with similar/related motives (rising C major chord).
My favorite is probably the mysterious Caspar da Salo on PILZ or other cheapo labels (usually two single discs 1-3 and 4-6). They take the first movement rather leisurely but skip most repeats and take a more scherzando approach to the 3rd movement.
Amadeus might be worth a try, I didn't like their "Lark" because of the annoying tone or Brainin but overall I seem to recall they were pretty good in op.64.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on May 17, 2022, 02:34:05 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on May 17, 2022, 12:13:38 AM
op.64/1 is rather un-Mozartean, IMO. The "problem" here is lack of contrast, partly because the first 3 movements often appear to be roughly the same tempo, the first two even start with similar/related motives (rising C major chord).
My favorite is probably the mysterious Caspar da Salo on PILZ or other cheapo labels (usually two single discs 1-3 and 4-6). They take the first movement rather leisurely but skip most repeats and take a more scherzando approach to the 3rd movement.
Amadeus might be worth a try, I didn't like their "Lark" because of the annoying tone or Brainin but overall I seem to recall they were pretty good in op.64.

I agree Caspar da Salo's well worth a listen, though really there's a bit to much champagne for me. I like it darker, less celebratory.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on May 17, 2022, 09:11:30 AM

That's not quite fair to Caspar da Salo, what I said above. I'm not sure that 64/1 is my sort of music at the the end of the day, but I will say this: London Haydn's intonation makes it a lot more interesting, as does Tatrai's phrasing. London Haydn is attractive because it's so serious - Tatrai also serious in its way. I'd like to hear London Haydn do 7 Words.

I'll go further, London Haydn is a real revelation and could possibly lead me to enjoying the music.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on May 17, 2022, 12:13:50 PM

I read "so serious" and my LHQ-disliking brain thinks "removed all the Haydnesque joy out of it".

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on May 17, 2022, 11:16:54 PM

I listened to the Mosaiques recording of op.64/1 last night and this one is more "serious". I liked this as well although I think I prefer the "cozy", relaxed Caspar da Salo.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on May 18, 2022, 12:46:21 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on May 17, 2022, 11:16:54 PM
I listened to the Mosaiques recording of op.64/1 last night and this one is more "serious". I liked this as well although I think I prefer the "cozy", relaxed Caspar da Salo.

It was actually the opening of the Mosaiques that I compared to the opening of the London Haydn Quartet (can't hear the whole of the latter online, only samples). I know which one felt like it still had some bounce.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on May 18, 2022, 01:22:28 AM

Another one which caught my attention in 64/1 were Auryn. Probably not for me but nevertheless nuanced and fresh, though I don't believe it sustains my interest - even across a single movement - as well as London Haydn.

Buchberger also, but by this time I was hardly paying serious attention.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on May 18, 2022, 01:35:27 AM

I'd have to re-listen to the Caspar da Salo but they are rather slow in the first two movements of this piece but in a relaxed, "genial" way I find appealing for this quartet and they are, IRRC bouncy and funny in the Scherzando (and skip most repeats there, so that it lasts only about 4 min.)
It's an unassuming but interesting quartet. The first movement has basically a second development section in the recap/coda with comparably remote (A flat, I think) modulations and a little fugato.
I once looked at the tempi of different recordings and it seemed possible to take quarter(1)=quarter(2)=eighth note(3) ~140 bpm for the first three movements although this might exaggerate the lack of contrast. According to my notes the Caspar da Salo play ca. 130, 144, 152, i.e. they get faster in each movement whereas Festetics have ca. 144, 132, 132. (I didn't have the Mosaiques back then.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on May 20, 2022, 12:56:14 PM

I have just discovered op 64/3. This is interesting music.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on May 20, 2022, 11:29:34 PM

#3 might be my favorite of op.64, especially the hilarious 1st movement.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on May 21, 2022, 03:05:09 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on May 20, 2022, 11:29:34 PM
#3 might be my favorite of op.64, especially the hilarious 1st movement.

Indeed. I've heard this style before in Haydn.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on May 21, 2022, 06:28:49 AM

And London Haydn once again a revelation.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 03, 2022, 07:58:48 PM

Haydn is such a great composer because there is always new Haydn to listen to. Just listening to the Baryton Divertimentos (Octets). Some wonderful music here.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 04, 2022, 05:42:25 AM

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 03, 2022, 07:58:48 PM
Haydn is such a great composer because there is always new Haydn to listen to. Just listening to the Baryton Divertimentos (Octets). Some wonderful music here.

always new Haydn, and always worthwhile!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on July 04, 2022, 01:58:21 PM

Not the only reason why he's such a great composer, of course ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on July 05, 2022, 08:08:17 AM

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on July 03, 2022, 07:58:48 PM
Haydn is such a great composer because there is always new Haydn to listen to. Just listening to the Baryton Divertimentos (Octets). Some wonderful music here.

Yes those are wonderful works. I should revisit them. I've been busy relistening to symphonies and piano trios.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on July 05, 2022, 08:25:54 AM

(https://static.qobuz.com/images/covers/ga/6b/xz4a6ljs96bga_600.jpg)

This is an enjoyable recording of Haydn violin concertos for a few reasons:
1. the pairing, with a new string orchestra rendering of Stravinsky's "Divertimento" (originally for violin and piano, and before that originally a ballet)
2. the tasteful cadenzas, by Anner Bijlsma in No. 1 and by the soloist in No. 4
3. the quasi-HIP hybrid performance style
4. the ad hoc chamber orchestra, assembled specially for this session during the pandemic
5. the chamber orchestra's name and pedigree - it's named after the street where Bijlsma and Vera Beths live, because almost all the players are former students of Vera Beths and they gathered together to release this album in her honor

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on July 12, 2022, 03:59:10 AM

So I've just been listening for the first time to the Quatour Mosaiques performance of op.76/3 - the "Emperor" quartet.

But it's the liner notes that blew my mind.

What I already knew is that the 2nd movement is a theme and variations on Haydn's own composition that is now the German national anthem. But the mind-blowing part? The original hymn was called Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser, and the 1st movement starts with, and is built around, the motif G-E-F-D-C.

Plus the 3rd and 4th movements start with forms of the same motif.

Now, sometimes I think people are drawing long bows when they find this sort of thing, but I have to admit that in this case I'm fairly convinced. How did I not know about this before?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on July 12, 2022, 05:35:41 AM

Quote from: Madiel on July 12, 2022, 03:59:10 AM
So I've just been listening for the first time to the Quatour Mosaiques performance of op.76/3 - the "Emperor" quartet.

But it's the liner notes that blew my mind.

What I already knew is that the 2nd movement is a theme and variations on Haydn's own composition that is now the German national anthem. But the mind-blowing part? The original hymn was called Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser, and the 1st movement starts with, and is built around, the motif G-E-F-D-C.

Plus the 3rd and 4th movements start with forms of the same motif.

Now, sometimes I think people are drawing long bows when they find this sort of thing, but I have to admit that in this case I'm fairly convinced. How did I not know about this before?

Thanks! Fact is, it's new to me, as well. (I guess I haven't read the notes)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: TheGSMoeller on July 12, 2022, 06:50:25 AM

Quote from: Madiel on July 12, 2022, 03:59:10 AM
So I've just been listening for the first time to the Quatour Mosaiques performance of op.76/3 - the "Emperor" quartet.

But it's the liner notes that blew my mind.

What I already knew is that the 2nd movement is a theme and variations on Haydn's own composition that is now the German national anthem. But the mind-blowing part? The original hymn was called Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser, and the 1st movement starts with, and is built around, the motif G-E-F-D-C.

Plus the 3rd and 4th movements start with forms of the same motif.

Now, sometimes I think people are drawing long bows when they find this sort of thing, but I have to admit that in this case I'm fairly convinced. How did I not know about this before?

A reminder that I should always read the liner notes. Thanks for the info, Madiel. I have the Quatour Mosaiques box set of Haydn SQ but I don't even know if there are liner notes included.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on July 12, 2022, 06:55:53 AM

I knew about the "Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser" fact but not about the g-e-f-d-c one. Looks like Haydn pioneered a lot more things than he is credited for.

The lyrics continue "Unsern guten Kaiser Franz", but actually Francis was not exactly your typical "good Franz", or at least he didn't look like one.

(https://www.mediastorehouse.com.au/p/617/portrait-francis-ii-holy-roman-emperor-1816-9696777.jpg.webp)

Anything but a good-humoured nature, anything but Haydnesque. Go ahead, ask this "good king" for a constitution. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: LKB on July 12, 2022, 10:39:49 AM

Quote from: Florestan on July 12, 2022, 06:55:53 AM
I knew about the "Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser" fact but not about the g-e-f-d-c one. Looks like Haydn pioneered a lot more things than he is credited for.

The lyrics continue "Unsern guten Kaiser Franz", but actually Francis was not exactly your typical "good Franz", or at least he didn't look like one.

(https://www.mediastorehouse.com.au/p/617/portrait-francis-ii-holy-roman-emperor-1816-9696777.jpg.webp)

Anything but a good-humoured nature, anything but Haydnesque. Go ahead, ask this "good king" for a constitution. ;D

Remind's me of that painting from Ghostbusters II... Vigo, wasn't it?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on July 12, 2022, 11:31:36 AM

Quote from: Madiel on July 12, 2022, 03:59:10 AM
So I've just been listening for the first time to the Quatour Mosaiques performance of op.76/3 - the "Emperor" quartet.

But it's the liner notes that blew my mind.

What I already knew is that the 2nd movement is a theme and variations on Haydn's own composition that is now the German national anthem. But the mind-blowing part? The original hymn was called Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser, and the 1st movement starts with, and is built around, the motif G-E-F-D-C.

Plus the 3rd and 4th movements start with forms of the same motif.

Now, sometimes I think people are drawing long bows when they find this sort of thing, but I have to admit that in this case I'm fairly convinced. How did I not know about this before?

I am really embarrassed because I had read this before (maybe in these very liner notes because I have had the Mosaiques op.76 since about 15 years...) but I totally forgot about it... Maybe because although I know this text of the old Emperor hymn my main association is of course the modern German national anthem text (written in the mid-19th century and in practice reduced to the 3rd stanza as the first one is deemed to nationalist and the 2nd too old fashioned and a bit silly).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on August 01, 2022, 12:06:15 AM

I just noticed that Bavouzet has released his 11th, and last, volume of piano sonatas.

Now, the big question is, how long do I wait for news of a box...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 17, 2022, 08:37:09 PM

Hey everyone

I'm convinced that at some point, can't remember when, I read, in a library, some of a book by H C Robbins Landon which was about 200-300 pages long, called The Symphonies on Joseph Haydn or something like that and had a short chapter devoted to each symphony.

And yet I can't find any mention of a work like this in Robbins Landon's oeuvre.

It might have been by someone else, but it was quite an old book (60s or 70s) and not too many people were writing in English then about Haydn except HCRL.

What was the book I was looking at?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wanderer on August 17, 2022, 10:46:10 PM

Quote from: Florestan on July 12, 2022, 06:55:53 AM
I knew about the "Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser" fact but not about the g-e-f-d-c one. Looks like Haydn pioneered a lot more things than he is credited for.

The lyrics continue "Unsern guten Kaiser Franz", but actually Francis was not exactly your typical "good Franz", or at least he didn't look like one.

(https://www.mediastorehouse.com.au/p/617/portrait-francis-ii-holy-roman-emperor-1816-9696777.jpg.webp)

Anything but a good-humoured nature, anything but Haydnesque. Go ahead, ask this "good king" for a constitution. ;D

His portrait looks even more sinister in person as it hangs in eerie gloom at the Kaiserliche Schatzkammer in Vienna amid all the dimly-lit Habsburg regalia, crowns and jewels.

Quote from: LKB on July 12, 2022, 10:39:49 AM
Remind's me of that painting from Ghostbusters II... Vigo, wasn't it?

That's the very same portrait they used in that film.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on August 18, 2022, 04:22:36 AM

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 17, 2022, 08:37:09 PM
Hey everyone

I'm convinced that at some point, can't remember when, I read, in a library, some of a book by H C Robbins Landon which was about 200-300 pages long, called The Symphonies on Joseph Haydn or something like that and had a short chapter devoted to each symphony.

And yet I can't find any mention of a work like this in Robbins Landon's oeuvre.

It might have been by someone else, but it was quite an old book (60s or 70s) and not too many people were writing in English then about Haydn except HCRL.

What was the book I was looking at?

I googled and immediately came up with used copies of "Haydn Symphonies" by H.C. Robbins Landon for sale. So I don't know why you're not finding it.

Or if that's not the one you want, there is "The Symphonies of Joseph Haydn" which is older.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 18, 2022, 02:12:51 PM

Thanks Madiel, I must have been using Bing by accident, LOL.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on August 18, 2022, 02:26:14 PM

Actually you can download it from archive.org! (1955 edition)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on August 18, 2022, 03:50:53 PM

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on August 18, 2022, 02:26:14 PM
Actually you can download it from archive.org! (1955 edition)

Thanks for the tip
https://archive.org/details/haydnsymphonies0000land

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on August 31, 2022, 07:00:22 AM

The 17th volume of Haydn 2032 will be "Per il Luigi":

Kammerorchester Basel
Giovanni Antonini, Dirigent
Dmitry Smirnov, Violine

Joseph Haydn:
Sinfonie Nr. 36 in Es-Dur
Konzert für Violine und Streicher Nr. 1 C-Dur «Per il Luigi»
Pause
Sinfonie Nr. 16 in B-Dur
Sinfonie Nr. 13 in D-Dur

Concerts this October in Vienna, Paris, and Basel.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 31, 2022, 07:57:25 AM

Quote from: Brian on August 31, 2022, 07:00:22 AM
The 17th volume of Haydn 2032 will be "Per il Luigi":

Kammerorchester Basel
Giovanni Antonini, Dirigent
Dmitry Smirnov, Violine

Joseph Haydn:
Sinfonie Nr. 36 in Es-Dur
Konzert für Violine und Streicher Nr. 1 C-Dur «Per il Luigi»
Pause
Sinfonie Nr. 16 in B-Dur
Sinfonie Nr. 13 in D-Dur

Concerts this October in Vienna, Paris, and Basel.

That looks like a great disk! Sure would like to see the pace of release pick up a bit, there's a lot to do before 2032! :o

🤠😎

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wanderer on August 31, 2022, 07:59:41 AM

Quote from: Brian on August 31, 2022, 07:00:22 AM
The 17th volume of Haydn 2032 will be "Per il Luigi":

Kammerorchester Basel
Giovanni Antonini, Dirigent
Dmitry Smirnov, Violine

Joseph Haydn:
Sinfonie Nr. 36 in Es-Dur
Konzert für Violine und Streicher Nr. 1 C-Dur «Per il Luigi»
Pause
Sinfonie Nr. 16 in B-Dur
Sinfonie Nr. 13 in D-Dur

Concerts this October in Vienna, Paris, and Basel.

I'll be attending one of the Viennese concerts. The program contains these three symphonies but not the concerto, unless they plan to surprise us.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on August 31, 2022, 08:49:16 AM

Quote from: Wanderer on August 31, 2022, 07:59:41 AM
I'll be attending one of the Viennese concerts. The program contains these three symphonies but not the concerto, unless they plan to surprise us.

Probably an encore. I'm jealous. 😒

🤠🤓

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wanderer on August 31, 2022, 11:37:48 PM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 31, 2022, 08:49:16 AM
Probably an encore. I'm jealous. 😒

🤠🤓

Ah, it would be great if you were also there. And then we would discuss performances at Café Schwarzenberg. 😎

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on September 19, 2022, 09:57:37 AM

(https://i.discogs.com/Z6SsEmMtRsMXakHpZiwkaX8KHyQB0R-k1We2GZRRo50/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:598/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTE0OTIz/NTAxLTE1ODQxNjU3/MjItNjM2NC5qcGVn.jpeg)

Op 71/2 live here, Lindsays. Sounds like good music to me. I don't think I've ever heard the op 71 quartets, attentively.

I'll tell you how I came across it. I was listening to Maxwell Davies's 5th quartet on Qobuz. Qobuz suggests related music and it came up with Haydn op 71 played by the Maxwell Quartet - syntax. So I thought, why not, I'll try it. Well after the Max quartet the Haydn sounded like kindergarten tunes. Before dismissing it completely I thought I'd see what I have in my own collection and came up with this Lindsay Quartet CD - and it's not like nursery music at all!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on September 19, 2022, 11:17:39 AM

Quote from: Wanderer on August 31, 2022, 11:37:48 PM
Ah, it would be great if you were also there. And then we would discuss performances at Café Schwarzenberg. 😎

Indeed, that would be something to look forward to. I need to give some thought about an passe-partout. ;)

8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on September 23, 2022, 05:07:05 PM

Saw this on a listing for BBC Radio 3

"Interval music: Fortepianist Ronald Brautigam plays Haydn's Piano Sonata in D major H. 16.51 - written around the time of The Creation."

That was a long time ago!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on September 23, 2022, 10:33:03 PM

::) :laugh:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on September 23, 2022, 11:51:25 PM

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on September 23, 2022, 05:07:05 PM
Saw this on a listing for BBC Radio 3

"Interval music: Fortepianist Ronald Brautigam plays Haydn's Piano Sonata in D major H. 16.51 - written around the time of The Creation."

That was a long time ago!

"From Harmony, from heavenly harmony,
This universal frame began..."

https://englishverse.com/poems/a_song_for_st_cecilias_day_1687

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on September 24, 2022, 05:05:25 AM

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on September 23, 2022, 05:07:05 PM
Saw this on a listing for BBC Radio 3

"Interval music: Fortepianist Ronald Brautigam plays Haydn's Piano Sonata in D major H. 16.51 - written around the time of The Creation."

That was a long time ago!

Premiered in the Garden of Eden by Adam to an audience consisting of Eve and the Snake. Rumor has it that the latter hissed the performance.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on September 24, 2022, 09:50:54 AM

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on September 23, 2022, 05:07:05 PM
Saw this on a listing for BBC Radio 3

"Interval music: Fortepianist Ronald Brautigam plays Haydn's Piano Sonata in D major H. 16.51 - written around the time of The Creation."

That was a long time ago!

Quote from: Florestan on September 24, 2022, 05:05:25 AM
Premiered in the Garden of Eden by Adam to an audience consisting of Eve and the Snake. Rumor has it that the latter hissed the performance.

:laugh: ;D

PD

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 24, 2022, 10:20:53 AM

Although I don't listen to his music very often, Haydn remains a very special composer to me, since he was the first composer, along with Mozart, with whom I started appreciating classical music. I have Karajan's recording for the Paris and London Symphonies, but I would like to get a complete box set of Haydn's symphonies. Any suggestion or recordings you would recommend?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on September 24, 2022, 02:43:06 PM

Quote from: Lisztianwagner on September 24, 2022, 10:20:53 AM
Although I don't listen to his music very often, Haydn remains a very special composer to me, since he was the first composer, along with Mozart, with whom I started appreciating classical music. I have Karajan's recording for the Paris and London Symphonies, but I would like to get a complete box set of Haydn's symphonies. Any suggestion or recordings you would recommend?

Isn't the Dorati box the one to get?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: vers la flamme on September 24, 2022, 02:49:22 PM

Dorati/Philharmonia Hungarica and Adam Fischer/Austro Hungarian Haydn Orchestra are both supposed to be quite good. Both Hungarians, go figure.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on September 24, 2022, 03:30:05 PM

Or the Decca PI box: Hogwood, Bruggen and Dantone.

:D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on September 24, 2022, 09:33:31 PM

Quote from: Lisztianwagner on September 24, 2022, 10:20:53 AM
Although I don't listen to his music very often, Haydn remains a very special composer to me, since he was the first composer, along with Mozart, with whom I started appreciating classical music. I have Karajan's recording for the Paris and London Symphonies, but I would like to get a complete box set of Haydn's symphonies. Any suggestion or recordings you would recommend?

Dorati's is the "classic" set.

I'm very fond of the Fischer set, but the Londons in the box are not good. I suggest supplementing with the Bernstein/Sony box.

I like the Dennis Russell Davies set, but Hurwitz dismisses it as dull, and the inclusion of applause is an annoyance. I don't know the mixed Hogwood set. The recent transfers of the Maerzendorfer set are not well done.

Other incomplete boxes I like are Brueggen (particularly the Londons) and Pinnock (Sturm und Drang).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on September 25, 2022, 12:25:09 AM

The easiest to get and cheapest nowadays is probably Fischer/Brilliant (most of them originally Nimbus). Russell Davies is oop and download only, Dorati might still be findable used for a decent price. I have not heard any of the Russell Davies and less than half of Dorati but Fischer is overall pretty good, especially in the symphonies usually only covered in complete recordings. As already mentioned, the relative weakest are the late symphonies from Paris set onwards that are easily supplemented. Some of the early ones were also recorded at the beginning of his traversal and are not so great but that's not such a big deal and often also affects symphonies with quite a few good separate recordings, such as the "day times" 6-8 or "Farewell" 45.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on September 25, 2022, 01:48:19 AM

I have a bit of a mix and match. Hogwood's box for the early stuff and then Fischer for numbers 70-81, which is considered one of the best bits of his collection (basically, the later recording dates are the best, by his own admission).

Symphonies 76-81 are weirdly rare for such mature works, and so that was exactly where Fischer provided perfect coverage.

After that you're into symphonies that are much easier to get hold of. For the record I have Kuijken in both the Paris symphonies and 88-92 (different orchestras) and Colin Davis in the Londons.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 25, 2022, 07:21:18 AM

Thank you very much for the suggestions, those look all interesting options; considering all the aspects, the Fischer/Brilliant box set could be a good choice. If his recordings of the Paris Symphonies and the Londons weren't exceptionally good as it was pointed, I could supplement them with the Karajan set I've already got, his Haydn is very fine in my opinion.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on September 25, 2022, 07:45:54 AM

I am not sure but I think the availability (even used) of the partial boxes by Fischer and Dorati (I think usually 4 disc boxes) is limited, same for the (often rather expensive) Hogwood boxes. There are good boxes of the "Sturm and Drang" (numbers around 40s, composed around 1770) but to close all the gaps could be rather tedious although both Naxos and the Goodman series on Hyperion have a lot of the symphonies on single discs.

Regular price for the Fischer box seems around 45 EUR which is not as cheap as it could be found in earlier times but it's o.k. for 33 discs

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Lisztianwagner on September 25, 2022, 08:14:48 AM

Quote from: George on September 25, 2022, 07:51:29 AM
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61Pud4WxtiL._SL450_.jpg)

If Haydn is a very special composer to you, I suggest looking around for this wonderful, yet OOP set: https://www.discogs.com/release/23477054-Haydn-Hogwood-Br%C3%BCggen-Dantone-Haydn-107-First-Complete-Cycle-On-Period-Instruments-Der-Vollst%C3%A4ndig

I appreciate the suggestion, but unfortunately this box set is unavailable or has a price out of reach. :(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on September 25, 2022, 08:16:23 AM

I doubt one is likely to get that combined box for a decent price. However, one might be more lucky with the Brüggen selection (Sturm & Drang, 82-105)

[asin]B00006YXOR[/asin]

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Wanderer on September 25, 2022, 09:15:58 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on August 31, 2022, 08:49:16 AM
Probably an encore.

🤠🤓

E-mail just in. The Hob. VIIa:1 Violin Concerto is officially on the program! 😎

Dear friends of music!

We are very much looking forward to the concerts of the current 2022/2023 season at Musikverein Wien. We are pleased to herewith send you information about one of your next concerts – the concert of Kammerorchester Basel in October 2022.

At the concert on Thursday, October 6, 2022 - 7:30 p.m. at our Brahms-Saal there will be a change in program: In addition to the works already scheduled, the Konzert für Violine und Orchester in C-Dur will now be performed as well, together with violinist Dmitry Smirnov.

The program of the concert, entitled "Per il Luigi" and conducted by Giovanni Antonini, is as follows:

Joseph Haydn
Symphonie Es-Dur, Hob. I:36
Konzert für Violine und Orchester C-Dur, Hob. VIIa:1

— Pause —

Joseph Haydn
Symphonie B-Dur, Hob. I:16
Symphonie D-Dur, Hob. I:13

We are looking forward to welcoming you again soon to our house and remain with

Kind regards
Your Box Office

Gesellschaft der Musikfreunde in Wien

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: MusicTurner on September 25, 2022, 09:48:37 AM

Quote from: Lisztianwagner on September 25, 2022, 07:21:18 AM
Thank you very much for the suggestions, those look all interesting options; considering all the aspects, the Fischer/Brilliant box set could be a good choice. If his recordings of the Paris Symphonies and the Londons weren't exceptionally good as it was pointed, I could supplement them with the Karajan set I've already got, his Haydn is very fine in my opinion.

I can't imagine that you'll feel that you've gone wrong with acquiring the Fischer set, maybe supplemented with some other recordings later ... a lot of the set is really rewarding and excellent, and actually, the late symphonies aren't bad either, IMHO.

Some current prices are 45 Euros at JPC, and down to 33 Euros second-hand at Amazon.de (Medimops, but allegedly sent from Germany, though I'm not a user of Medimops). Here in Denmark, I sometimes see the set for down to 10 Euros, at second-hand sales.

(I've got the Dorati set too, plus selected recordings with, among others, Bernstein, Marriner, Beecham, Scherchen, Davis, Jones, Salonen, Reiner, Furtwängler, Busch, Paray, Casals, Barbirolli, Malko, Celibidache, etc.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on September 25, 2022, 09:55:22 AM

Quote from: MusicTurner on September 25, 2022, 09:48:37 AM
I can't imagine that you'll feel that you've gone wrong with acquiring the Fischer set, maybe supplemented with some other recordings later ... a lot of the set is really rewarding and excellent, and actually, the late symphonies aren't bad either, IMHO.

+ 1 on all counts.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: LKB on October 14, 2022, 07:05:23 AM

I may have plugged these sets already, but if so it's been a while.

Between the late '70's and early '80's, Colin Davis and the RCO recorded the London Symphonies for Philips. There are two volumes:

Haydn: The London Symphonies, Vol. 1 - Nos. 95, 96, 98, 102, 103, 104 https://a.co/d/1nOF2lG

Haydn: The London Symphonies, Vol. 2 - Nos. 93, 94, 97, 99, 100, 101 https://a.co/d/9IdiVXh

They're not HIP, but any Haydn fan who hasn't heard them is missing out. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Spotted Horses on October 14, 2022, 09:03:07 AM

Quote from: vers la flamme on September 24, 2022, 02:49:22 PM
Dorati/Philharmonia Hungarica and Adam Fischer/Austro Hungarian Haydn Orchestra are both supposed to be quite good. Both Hungarians, go figure.

I had both and found both unlistenable, for different reasons. I currently have Dennis Russell Davies' set, which is lovely except for the nuisance of applause at the end of each symphony.

(I am a huge Dorati fan, but his set was recorded at breakneck pace and I get the feeling that they performances are underrehearsed (if rehearsed at all). The Fischer was recorded by Nimbus and I find the audio unacceptably reverberant.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 14, 2022, 09:27:29 AM

I have heard only about 1/4 of the Dorati and all/most of the Fischer and I can't understand how they should be "unlistenable. They have flaws but not crippling ones. The Dorati has mostly pretty good sound for 1970 and while it was probably underrehearsed it often has a straightforward energy I find appealing. Probably still my favorite recording of #90, and some others are also very good.
A flaw for me are the often slowish menuets (but this is a feature of many recordings).

The sound is not so good on the earlier Fischer recordings but the later ones have sufficiently good sound for my taste and he is also quite good in some symphonies not so well represented in the discography, e.g. 60s, 74-80 etc.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Spotted Horses on October 14, 2022, 09:36:01 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on October 14, 2022, 09:27:29 AM
I have heard only about 1/4 of the Dorati and all/most of the Fischer and I can't understand how they should be "unlistenable. They have flaws but not crippling ones.

"Unlistenable" is a very personal judgement. Probably I'd manage to listen if there weren't much more attractive (to me) alternatives. The Davies set isn't my favorite, but is there for pieces for which I don't otherwise have.

By far my favorite Haydn is the Harnoncourt (especially Concertgebouw), along with Bruggen, Colin Davis, Mackerras (Telarc), Kuijkan. Karajan has an attractive energy but the string sound is too dominant and doesn't bring out the best in Haydn's use of the orchestra, IMO.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on October 16, 2022, 06:39:27 PM

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTMxNDQyOS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NjIzODQyNzl9)

"Analyzing the final three decades of Haydn's career, this book uses the composer as a prism through which to examine urgent questions across the humanities.

"With this ambitious book, musicologist Nicholas Mathew [of UC Berkeley] uses the remarkable career of Joseph Haydn to consider a host of critical issues: how we tell the history of the Enlightenment and Romanticism; the relation of late-eighteenth-century culture to nascent capitalism and European colonialism; and how the modern market and modern aesthetic values were-and remain-inextricably entwined.

"The Haydn Economy weaves a vibrant material history of Haydn's late career, extending from the sphere of the ancient Esterhazy court to his frenetic years as an entrepreneur plying between London and Vienna, to his final decade as a venerable musical celebrity, where he witnessed the transformation of his legacy by a new generation of students and acolytes, Beethoven foremost among them. Ultimately, Mathew claims, Haydn's historical trajectory compels us to ask what we might usefully retain from the cultural and political practices of European modernity- whether we can extract and preserve its moral promise from its moral failures. And it demands that we confront the deep economic histories that continue to shape our beliefs about music, sound, and material culture."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 16, 2022, 09:15:47 PM

Quote from: Brian on October 16, 2022, 06:39:27 PM
Ultimately, Mathew claims, Haydn's historical trajectory compels us to ask what we might usefully retain from the cultural and political practices of European modernity- whether we can extract and preserve its moral promise from its moral failures. And it demands that we confront the deep economic histories that continue to shape our beliefs about music, sound, and material culture."

If it sounds good keep on listening.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on October 16, 2022, 09:54:24 PM

Quote from: Brian on October 16, 2022, 06:39:27 PM
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTMxNDQyOS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE2NjIzODQyNzl9)

"Analyzing the final three decades of Haydn's career, this book uses the composer as a prism through which to examine urgent questions across the humanities.

"With this ambitious book, musicologist Nicholas Mathew [of UC Berkeley] uses the remarkable career of Joseph Haydn to consider a host of critical issues: how we tell the history of the Enlightenment and Romanticism; the relation of late-eighteenth-century culture to nascent capitalism and European colonialism; and how the modern market and modern aesthetic values were-and remain-inextricably entwined.

"The Haydn Economy weaves a vibrant material history of Haydn's late career, extending from the sphere of the ancient Esterhazy court to his frenetic years as an entrepreneur plying between London and Vienna, to his final decade as a venerable musical celebrity, where he witnessed the transformation of his legacy by a new generation of students and acolytes, Beethoven foremost among them. Ultimately, Mathew claims, Haydn's historical trajectory compels us to ask what we might usefully retain from the cultural and political practices of European modernity- whether we can extract and preserve its moral promise from its moral failures. And it demands that we confront the deep economic histories that continue to shape our beliefs about music, sound, and material culture."

This could be interesting. Could.

I've always found it notable that Haydn's career sits right across this social change where musicians went from working for princes or the church to the world of public concerts. And Haydn was wildly popular with the new concert-going public. The figures for Paris, where Haydn's symphonies basically got played more often than everyone else's combined in some years, are pretty astounding.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on October 17, 2022, 02:08:31 PM

Quote from: Spotted Horses on October 14, 2022, 09:03:07 AM
I had both and found both unlistenable, for different reasons. I currently have Dennis Russell Davies' set, which is lovely except for the nuisance of applause at the end of each symphony.

(I am a huge Dorati fan, but his set was recorded at breakneck pace and I get the feeling that they performances are underrehearsed (if rehearsed at all). The Fischer was recorded by Nimbus and I find the audio unacceptably reverberant.)

As the Fischer series went on, Nimbus got better at recording in that hall. Most of the recordings are quite good. A set with poor recordings of the London's is somewhat crippled, I'll admit.

I think the balances on the Dorati set are sometimes off, but that may be the fault of the conductor. I don't hear a problem with the basic sound quality.

They really should have edited out the applause on the DRD set.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 17, 2022, 11:48:19 PM

Quote from: Daverz on October 17, 2022, 02:08:31 PM
As the Fischer series went on, Nimbus got better at recording in that hall. Most of the recordings are quite good. A set with poor recordings of the London's is somewhat crippled, I'll admit.

It's a liability but think that with today's choices and prices that is not such a concern as many people will have another recording of e.g. the London and Paris sets anyway.
With current prices and availability, the Fischer is probably the only reasonable choice for someone wanting ONE box with physical discs. But one could of course argue that in the era of streaming one should get a mix of recordings and close gaps with downloads or streaming. This was quite different about 20 years ago when the Fischer box came out on Brilliant (after Nimbus had not finished the project). Even then I was happy to get the Fischer despite having collected around 70 Haydn symphonies piecemeal since the mid-1990s

Quote
I think the balances on the Dorati set are sometimes off, but that may be the fault of the conductor. I don't hear a problem with the basic sound quality.

The sound is generally good. As they recorded >100 symphonies apparently in less than 4 years (and two different venues (all but 49-72 were done in the same church, though, despite the Oetker concert hall in Bielefeld where this first batch was done having a very good reputation, IIRC, and with a handful of sound engineers), there will be some run-throughs and the sound and balances don't seem to be consistent. E.g. brass and timpani are very present in 93 and 95 but quite subdued in others. The strings also sound fuller in some etc.
Of the big Haydn projects of the 70s (McCabe piano sonatas, Aeolian Quartets, I think Vienna Haydn Trio? for the trios, all from Telefunken or Decca, and some others, like Märzendorfer's symphony recordings) the Dorati symphony recordings were the only one to become a standard/classic.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Spotted Horses on October 18, 2022, 03:07:21 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on October 17, 2022, 11:48:19 PMThe sound is generally good. As they recorded >100 symphonies apparently in less than 4 years (and two different venues (all but 49-72 were done in the same church, though, despite the Oetker concert hall in Bielefeld where this first batch was done having a very good reputation, IIRC, and with a handful of sound engineers), there will be some run-throughs and the sound and balances don't seem to be consistent. E.g. brass and timpani are very present in 93 and 95 but quite subdued in others. The strings also sound fuller in some etc.
Of the big Haydn projects of the 70s (McCabe piano sonatas, Aeolian Quartets, I think Vienna Haydn Trio? for the trios, all from Telefunken or Decca, and some others, like Märzendorfer's symphony recordings) the Dorati symphony recordings were the only one to become a standard/classic.

When I last listened my impression was that the London Symphonies sounded dull, but the rest of the box sounded a lot better, which I thought might have been because the London symphonies were remastered first and the others done later when the art of remastering had improved.

My quibble was not with the sound, but with the performances, some of which struck me as often being read-throughs without much characterization, probably due to the rapid pace with which they were recorded.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on October 18, 2022, 03:34:58 AM

MusicWeb International's Christopher Howell wrote two lengthy articles comparing Märzendorfer with Dorati (and a host of other performances) and the former emerges as the indisputable winner. In Howell's own words: The Haydn presented by Dorati is a very nice composer. In Maerzendorfer's hands, Haydn lives and breathes as a great composer

RTWT here: http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2018/Mar/Maerzendorfer_Haydn_article.pdf (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2018/Mar/Maerzendorfer_Haydn_article.pdf) and http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2018/Sep/Maerzendorfer_Haydn_II.pdf (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2018/Sep/Maerzendorfer_Haydn_II.pdf)

Personally I haven't heard either cycles so I can't comment.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 18, 2022, 03:53:57 AM

The problem is that this treatment by Musicweb is utterly ahistorical. Märzendorfer was distributed so badly (I don't know if the pressings were substandard as well) on LP and never until a few years ago on CD, that I had not even heard of it before the late 1990s and the internet.
Whatever the exact circumstances, Dorati's Haydn symphonies did very well for almost 30 years*, both on LP and CD, not only vs. Märzendorfer but also vs. many (partial) recordings of this music available in the 70s through 90s.

* I'd say that by the early 2000s with the cheap Fischer box, Naxos and far more partial Haydn symphonies (Hogwood, Goodman, Brüggen etc.) around, Dorati was mostly superseded.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 18, 2022, 10:57:12 AM

Quote from: LKB on October 14, 2022, 07:05:23 AM
I may have plugged these sets already, but if so it's been a while.

Between the late '70's and early '80's, Colin Davis and the RCO recorded the London Symphonies for Philips. There are two volumes:

Haydn: The London Symphonies, Vol. 1 - Nos. 95, 96, 98, 102, 103, 104 https://a.co/d/1nOF2lG

Haydn: The London Symphonies, Vol. 2 - Nos. 93, 94, 97, 99, 100, 101 https://a.co/d/9IdiVXh

They're not HIP, but any Haydn fan who hasn't heard them is missing out. ;)

Love 'em.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: George on October 18, 2022, 12:09:31 PM

(https://i.discogs.com/CB4yTC9SNsijP2eTm8KT5QCjODH-EsKiebC55Wu83w4/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:571/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTIzNDc3/MDU0LTE2NTQ0NTAx/OTMtMTcwNC5wbmc.jpeg)

I am completely happy with this set. Shame it dropped out of print.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 18, 2022, 02:40:58 PM

Quote from: George on October 18, 2022, 12:09:31 PM
(https://i.discogs.com/CB4yTC9SNsijP2eTm8KT5QCjODH-EsKiebC55Wu83w4/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:571/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTIzNDc3/MDU0LTE2NTQ0NTAx/OTMtMTcwNC5wbmc.jpeg)

I am completely happy with this set. Shame it dropped out of print.

Nicely done!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on October 18, 2022, 04:23:24 PM

Quote from: George on October 18, 2022, 12:09:31 PM
(https://i.discogs.com/CB4yTC9SNsijP2eTm8KT5QCjODH-EsKiebC55Wu83w4/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:571/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTIzNDc3/MDU0LTE2NTQ0NTAx/OTMtMTcwNC5wbmc.jpeg)

I am completely happy with this set. Shame it dropped out of print.

As you should, good fellow. It is everything you need and nothing you don't. Might I have created 2 or 3 completely different cycles and been as happy? Easily, Haydn's symphonic oeuvre is fully and generously represented in every phase of the currently modish recording genres, historical, modern instrument and HIP/PI. However, if that box was my entire Haydn symphonies collection, I would be thrilled to death.

I don't do recommendations though. 😉

🤠😎

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Spotted Horses on October 19, 2022, 04:34:15 AM

Quote from: George on October 18, 2022, 12:09:31 PM
(https://i.discogs.com/CB4yTC9SNsijP2eTm8KT5QCjODH-EsKiebC55Wu83w4/rs:fit/g:sm/q:90/h:571/w:600/czM6Ly9kaXNjb2dz/LWRhdGFiYXNlLWlt/YWdlcy9SLTIzNDc3/MDU0LTE2NTQ0NTAx/OTMtMTcwNC5wbmc.jpeg)

I am completely happy with this set. Shame it dropped out of print.

My reaction to this is just that I wish Bruggen would have had the opportunity (and inclination) to record the complete Haydn Symphonies. So much Hogwood, and Hogwood just strikes me as dull. (Of course, that is just my personal reaction.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on October 19, 2022, 06:25:50 AM

I need to relisten to the DRD box set, because my initial reaction was that DRD is emotionless in slow movements, which is a critique much more commonly made about Hogwood. Luckily both big boxes are in my possession. The Bruggen stuff is gold.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 19, 2022, 06:35:41 AM

Quote from: Brian on October 19, 2022, 06:25:50 AM
I need to relisten to the DRD box set, because my initial reaction was that DRD is emotionless in slow movements, which is a critique much more commonly made about Hogwood. Luckily both big boxes are in my possession. The Bruggen stuff is gold.

FWIW, I don't recall any quarrel with the slow movements in the DRD set.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on October 19, 2022, 12:41:21 PM

Just pulled out five DRD CDs to resample his cycle!

(24, 26, 30, 31, 49, 53, 59, 61, 70, 79-81, 101, 105)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 19, 2022, 05:48:02 PM

Can't believe that Decca let that big box go oop. ???

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Spotted Horses on October 20, 2022, 03:52:19 AM

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on October 19, 2022, 05:48:02 PM
Can't believe that Decca let that big box go oop. ???

They are just waiting for demand to recover before then re-re-release it for the umpteenth time.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Spenserian on October 20, 2022, 05:23:49 AM

I've had the thought before that Decca is surely aware of the demand for the Doráti cycle too. I've seen bidding wars resulting in quite high prices on the local online marketplace. My bet is they're going to release a larger Doráti box and the Haydn cycle will be among the chief attractions.

If you want my unasked for but I hope not entirely unwelcome opinion on what to do in regards to Haydn symphonies, I think the best path for someone who has none yet is

Buy the Fischer cycle (can be had very cheap used)
Supplement the later symphonies with Bernstein's Paris symphonies (unbeatable) and London symphonies
Supplement with the Szell recordings (boxset on secondary market, but better off with the big Szell box for remastered versions)
For HIP: the Brüggen set and Harnoncourt paris symphonies
Well-regarded by Haydnites, unique: Scherchen (DG)

At that point, it becomes less easy. There are obviously some worthy London sets, among them Davis/Concertgebouw and Jochum/LSO. There are a fairly lage number of cycles that were never finished. Goberman is often praised, and may be better in the earlier symphonies than Fischer. Oddly enough, there is no complete hip cycle. Hogwood is simply dull and has long been eclipsed, frankly. Brüggen's few are the best, I think. Roy Goodman did a substantial amount with the Hanover band, but they're out of print and only available digitally -- Hyperion doesn't even list their catalogue on streaming services, so you can't even sample. This is frustrating, because it is possibly the best overal HIP (partial) cycle. Two modern HIP versions, the one with the Heidelberger Sinfoniker on Hänssler (period brass and timpani only, modern strings and woodwinds) and the one under Giovanni Antonini (using two different orchestras, the Kammerorchester Basel and Il Giardino Armonico) on Alpha have not finished yet, but unlike the Hanover band, the chiefly important thing for them seems to be ridicilously fast tempi. Some find them unbearable for that reason, although they are interesting if you want to hear Haydn on steroids. Thomas Fey started the Hänssler cycle. He was a maverick who studied under Harnoncourt and, like Harnoncourt, was hit-or-miss but sometimes delivered genius and was always at least interesting. Sadly he was involved in an accident and couldn't finish the cycle.

And then I haven't even mentioned many individual recordings, the Russell Davies and Doráti cycles, the Rosbaud Haydn recordings... I think there are just too many symphonies to trust one man, one performance style, one orchestra, one label. I wish that there would be a symphony cycle with a truly major modern orchestra and major label acoustics, like Mozart got with Böhm/BPO and Levine/VPO. That would be a nice standard to have.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: j winter on October 20, 2022, 06:19:16 AM

Quote from: Spenserian on October 20, 2022, 05:23:49 AM
I've had the thought before that Decca is surely aware of the demand for the Doráti cycle too. I've seen bidding wars resulting in quite high prices on the local online marketplace. My bet is they're going to release a larger Doráti box and the Haydn cycle will be among the chief attractions.

If you want my unasked for but I hope not entirely unwelcome opinion on what to do in regards to Haydn symphonies, I think the best path for someone who has none yet is

Buy the Fischer cycle (can be had very cheap used)
Supplement the later symphonies with Bernstein's Paris symphonies (unbeatable) and London symphonies
Supplement with the Szell recordings (boxset on secondary market, but better off with the big Szell box for remastered versions)
For HIP: the Brüggen set and Harnoncourt paris symphonies
Well-regarded by Haydnites, unique: Scherchen (DG)
At that point, it becomes less easy. There are obviously some worthy London sets, among them Davis/Concertgebouw and Jochum/LSO. There are a fairly lage number of cycles that were never finished. Goberman is often praised, and may be better in the earlier symphonies than Fischer. Oddly enough, there is no complete hip cycle. Hogwood is simply dull and has long been eclipsed, frankly. Brüggen's few are the best, I think. Roy Goodman did a substantial amount with the Hanover band, but they're out of print and only available digitally -- Hyperion doesn't even list their catalogue on streaming services, so you can't even sample. This is frustrating, because it is possibly the best overal HIP (partial) cycle. Two modern HIP versions, the one with the Heidelberger Sinfoniker on Hänssler (period brass and timpani only, modern strings and woodwinds) and the one under Giovanni Antonini (using two different orchestras, the Kammerorchester Basel and Il Giardino Armonico) on Alpha have not finished yet, but unlike the Hanover band, the chiefly important thing for them seems to be ridicilously fast tempi. Some find them unbearable for that reason, although they are interesting if you want to hear Haydn on steroids. Thomas Fey started the Hänssler cycle. He was a maverick who studied under Harnoncourt and, like Harnoncourt, was hit-or-miss but sometimes delivered genius and was always at least interesting. Sadly he was involved in an accident and couldn't finish the cycle.

And then I haven't even mentioned many individual recordings, the Russell Davies and Doráti cycles, the Rosbaud Haydn recordings... I think there are just too many symphonies to trust one man, one performance style, one orchestra, one label. I wish that there would be a symphony cycle with a truly major modern orchestra and major label acoustics, like Mozart got with Böhm/BPO and Levine/VPO. That would be a nice standard to have.

Excellent post! There's a lot of very valuable advice in there, personally I agree with most of it.

I also think the Naxos symphonies set with various orchestras is a decent choice for someone trying to familiarize themselves with the works and wanting everything in one box, particularly if you can find it cheaply. The performances certainly aren't going to compete with Szell, Bernstein etc., but they are uniformly quite good, on modern instruments, and fairly well recorded. Worth considering IMO.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on October 20, 2022, 07:24:18 AM

Quote from: Spotted Horses on October 20, 2022, 03:52:19 AM
They are just waiting for demand to recover before then re-re-release it for the umpteenth time.

I've noticed that they like to do that as I discovered when I went to purchase a used copy of a box of Wagner's operas which was supposedly a limited edition. Found it used for a decent price and then shortly thereafter they reissued it. Thankfully, I didn't pay a huge sum for it, but if I'm recalling correctly, I could have purchased it for a better price later on. >:(

Looks like the price for it is all over the place now: https://www.amazon.com/Wagner-Great-Operas-Bayreuth-Festival/dp/B00159679S/ref=sr_1_1?crid=3785HH3PIIEFQ&keywords=wagner+the+great+operas+from+the+bayreuth&qid=1666279404&qu=eyJxc2MiOiIwLjkxIiwicXNhIjoiMC4wMCIsInFzcCI6IjAuMDAifQ%3D%3D&s=music&sprefix=wagner+the+great+operas+from+the+bayreuth%2Cpopular%2C155&sr=1-1

PD

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 20, 2022, 09:30:15 AM

Spenserian had some good suggestions. A small correction: To my knowledge all/most of Goodman's on hyperion can be bought as discs in their "Helios" re-issue.
I'll offer below an alternative w/o the Fischer although I fully support getting it as a "base" because it is cheap, available and, I think, in a bunch of discographically elusive symphonies (e.g. 70-81, also some from the 50s-60s numbers) among the best opitions.

This is a mix of what I had before I got the Fischer box almost 20 years ago and single/separate recordings, some of which only appeared in these last decades. It will cost more, especially more time because one needs to find some stuff used (unless stuff can be had via download, I usually presuppose getting physical discs because that's what I do/did). "SD" means that the piece is in the "Sturm & Drang" boxes by Pinnock (DG Archiv) or Brüggen (oop).
Disclosure: I only know one of the volumes with Goodman of 1-25 (17-21) but I listed them anyway because they are availlable new as single discs, unlike Hogwood.
And apparently I have 27, 32, 37 and 62 only with Fischer (same goes for the early ones where I listed Goodman although I have Hogwood for some of them), so one would probably have to look for the Naxos to close the gaps. The same goes for the ones where I have only Hogwood in the list as these 3 disc boxes are ordered chronologically and not easy to find cheaply (and while I like them a bit better than Spenserian does, I would not recommend taking too much trouble to get any of them):

1-5 Goodman
6-8 "Daytimes" Harnoncourt/Teldec, or Freiburger Barockorchester (or several other good choices, such as Pinnock
9-12, 13-16, 17-21, 22-25 Goodman
22 "Philosopher", Orpheus, quite a few options on single discs
26 SD
27 -
28 Hogwood
29 Hogwood
30 Harnoncourt
31 Harnoncourt
32 -
33 Hogwood
34 Fey
35 SD
36 Hogwood
37 -
38 SD
39 SD, Solomons
40 Fey
41 SD
42 SD
43 SD
44 SD, Fricsay
45 SD
46 SD
47 SD
48 SD, Solomons/Sony (CBS), Fey
49 SD
50 SD, Fey
51 SD
52 SD
53 Harnoncourt, Fey
54 Hogwood, Fey
55 Hogwood
56 Hogwood, Fey
57 Hogwood, Fey
58 SD
59 SD, Harnoncourt
60 Harnoncourt, Rattle
61 Hogwood
62 -
63 Orpheus
64 Fey
65 SD
66 Hogwood
67 Hogwood
68 Harnoncourt
69 Harnoncourt, Fey
70-78 Goodman (70 Rattle, 73 Harnoncourt, but Fischer is mostly really good in 70-80)
79 Orpheus/DG
80 Orpheus, Freiburger/hm
81 Orpheus, Blum/Vanguard, Müller-Brühl/Naxos
82 - 87 "Paris", the best covered Haydn symphonies, I'd say, even better than some of the London. Take your pick
89 - 92 Rattle/Berlin or Kuijken [I don't know Kuijken here but his Paris and some of his London, so I'd dare suggesting this as an alternativ]
or piecemeal:
88 many options e.g. Furtwängler, Bernstein...
89 Glover/ASV, Wolf
90 Rattle/Birmingham
91 Jacobs/hm, Wolf
92 many options, again Jacobs or the historical Rosbaud
93-104 "London", take your pick

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on October 20, 2022, 01:21:37 PM

Reminder that if you're not looking for a complete set, the Marriner/ASMF is a good option for several of these.

Myself--I have the Fischer and DRD boxes, and the Hogwood/Bruggen/Dantone in the form of its separate components.
I have the full Goodman series via the Helios re-issues.
I have one 4 CD batch of the Dorati, but don't remember which symphonies it includes.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Spenserian on October 21, 2022, 04:41:57 AM

I do have the Naxos set, and the Marriner set, and the Orpheus Chamber Orchestra set, and the Pinnock set, and the Müllejans ones, and the Jacobs ones... And like them all a lot too! There's no shortage certainly :P I just found there's actually another complete cycle currently being recorded: Norichika Iimori with the Japan Century Symphony Orchestra.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 21, 2022, 04:55:45 AM

The perennial problem with many partial sets, e.g. the Marriner or also the "Sturm&Drang" set by Pinnock or the bunch recorded by Weil and boxed later, is that most of them cover the usual suspects, so the same gaps will remain.
I admittedly don't recommend to anyone taking trouble to get Haydn's #25 or #33. That's why a cheap complete recording is so convenient.

With Dorati I have 72-95 on CD in two of these 4-disc-boxes (I have all on LP but have never heard all and cannot play them now). The 72-83 box is a mixed bag and I think Fischer is better in 74-81 (a very good and underrated batch of pieces). But the 84-95 box is worth seeking out; as I said, Dorati's #90 is probably my favorite and 88, 89, 92, 93, 95 hold up very well against more recent recordings.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on October 22, 2022, 06:17:17 AM

This discussion has been fantastic and helped organize my brain. It has also left me wishing I purchased the Goberman box set while it was still available. That was a mistake! Always buy the stuff you want ;D

I made a Google spreadsheet of partial cycles (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GZ1DbDfgqsPxi6VKbbzKjhmHcgogLMRnzS8HlCXHxOI/edit?usp=sharing) by Goberman, Orpheus, Harnoncourt, Bruggen, Scherchen, Weil, and Marriner. It shows which symphonies were recorded by which people. I included some OOP Harnoncourt Teldec albums which haven't been reissued in a box yet (as far as I can tell).

Symphonies which were NOT covered by Bruggen, Goberman, Harnoncourt, Marriner, Scherchen, Weil, or the Orpheus, so you have to spring for a single disc or complete box (or perhaps Hogwood or Goodman): 18, 25, 28-30, 33, 36, 54, 61-62, 66, 67, 70-72, 74-76. There is an excellent 67 from Philharmonia Baroque and Nicholas McGegan. Fey, Klumpp, and Antonini have covered some.

One more thought. I do not own this box set of "off-air" radio broadcasts (https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8803331--haydn-symphonies) of Haydn from 1950s England, but it includes Scherchen doing the very rare Symphony No. 29, plus recordings of 25, 28, and 30 along with some other less popular symphonies.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 22, 2022, 07:30:28 AM

Good job. You included Harnoncourt/CMW with 31, 59, 73 (that is IMO the most desirable of their single issues) but not 30, 53, 69 (that is also quite good, I just think these symphonies are not as good as the ones on the other disc) but I think they are both simiilarly (un)available. There was also a re-shuffled re-issue with 30, 45, 73...

I was quite excited when that Scherchen box came out years ago on DG Original masters (Universal has owned all or most of the Westminster for some time, I believe) but I think it is really a mixed bag, maybe even more than was to be expected from Scherchen ;) The sound rather sucks on some of them and I rarely listen to the "London" symphonies from this set (#100, a special favorite of Scherchen's but not mine, is better in his stereo recording that was on the Great conductors of the century volume). BUT: 45, 88 are quite extraordinary if very excentric and 49 and 92 at least very good and might be worth seeking out.

As I probably already wrote somewhere, I don't like all of Fey's Haydn I have heard but his 53+54 and 48+56 are among the best of his series and very good. Goodman is not my absolute favorite (my overall fav in most of them is Fischer) in 70-72, 73-75, 76-78 but more than a stopgap. A good single 70 is with Rattle, whereas Fey is highly irritating especially in the finale (the 75 might be a reason to get this disc nevertheless)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on October 23, 2022, 11:10:22 AM

Thanks, I added that Harnoncourt disc that I did not know about. Not sure why his Concertgebouw Haydn has been conveniently reissued but not the CMW stuff. I assume that they are preparing a gigantic All Harnoncourt box (or maybe orchestral and vocal/operatic separately). Much like we assume that Decca is preparing an All Dorati box.

-

As promised last page, I spent a while last week listening to two discs of Dennis Russell Davies' cycle, with three more discs to come this week. Since I own it, I might as well have better knowledge of it! Contrary to my memory, the slow movements were very lovely indeed, lovingly expressed and warm, a huge improvement over Hogwood or, frankly, Antonini. The outer movements of 80 were a little bit stiff, as if he was uncomfortable with the weird syncopated rhythms and jokes, but on the other hand 53 was marvelous.

My cat did not appreciate the sudden outbursts of applause.

On Friday we saw a live performance of 44 "Trauer-sinfonie" with the Dallas Symphony and Juanjo Mena. Reduced-size orchestra, closer to those of Haydn's time, and overall a very good, elegant performance, with an especially wonderful slow movement. The reverb of a huge concert hall does not help in the very fast passages, like the scurrying violins in the first movement, which get a little bit blurry. But the rest was wonderful, and it was intriguing to see visually the odd forces Haydn uses: no flutes!

That was the first time the Dallas Symphony had ever played 44.

I don't need another symphony cycle, right? owning the Decca HIP set and the DRD set, plus various partials (Orpheus, Bernstein, Weil, Marriner). But I have started listening to YouTube sample movements from Marzendorfer, and gosh is he good. Like Bernstein, he has a charging forward way with outer movements, but is slightly slow in minuets. Like Bernstein, he seems very alive to Haydn's wit, phrasing, and endless detail. But unlike Bernstein, he's got a chamber orchestra. Maybe a more apt comparison would be a Viennese Marriner. I might need to hear this in full. Any Marzendorfer enthusiasts here? Or detractors? From a forum search, it looks like only a few people (like J Winter and Daverz) have heard it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 23, 2022, 11:22:28 AM

Märzendorfer was utterly unavailable for decades, except on (rare?) used LPs (it was also quite unknown, as I said above, I had not even heard about its existence until the internet). Then, later one might be able to get some semi-private transfers of them semi-legally on the internet. I probably had a bunch of them some time ago. When the whole thing was finally re-issued on CD, I was too saturated with Haydn to bother. It certainly had its fans all the time (as some other 1960s-70s Haydn LPs like Goberman, Jones, Blum).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Spotted Horses on October 23, 2022, 07:35:48 PM

Quote from: Brian on October 23, 2022, 11:10:22 AM
Thanks, I added that Harnoncourt disc that I did not know about. Not sure why his Concertgebouw Haydn has been conveniently reissued but not the CMW stuff.

You are misinformed about that

(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiNzk2MzE0OS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwianBlZyI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0IjoianBlZyJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE0NjEwODMwNzF9)

I have this box, which appears to be nla, although it can be had as a lossless download from presto.

Thanks for the spreadsheet! You didn't include Thomas Fey, which would have been the best Haydn cycle of them all if he hadn't fallen down the stairs, or whatever, and sustained irreversible brain damage. I've lost track of which symphonies he covered, although I have a bunch of his discs. I understand Heidelberg has plans to finish the cycle with their new music director, but I can't find any enthusiasm within myself to seek it out.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 24, 2022, 03:37:17 AM

I think Brian made the spreadsheet with what he already had or was specially interested in...
IIRC there are also two single discs with the Concentus musicus Haydn in the "elatus" series but they might be recombinations of the originals and in turn oop.
While Harnoncourt's "Paris" set is probably the most distinctive of his Haydn (and has the best sound), the 4 earlier discs (I have not heard the Concertante + concerto) with the Concentus are for me the most easily recommendable because they are not as mannered as some of the Paris and they cover some symphonies not nearly as well represented in the discocraphy. The London set is pretty good but not that special, modern instruments, but some mannerisms and there is a lot of competition.

The Heidelberg orchestra has issued two volumes or so with a new conductor or their concert master. There must be around 15 or more volumes with Fey and two or three later ones, so by now more than half of the symphonies.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on October 24, 2022, 03:40:47 AM

There are 23 volumes of Fey/Heidelberg, covering 63 symphonies.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on October 24, 2022, 06:02:17 AM

I excluded Fey because the cycle is technically ongoing, even if with newcomer Johannes Klumpp and even an Orpheus-style conductorless disc. I sampled a bit of Klumpp's newest and it sounded fairly stylistically similar, a good continuation.

Fey overall would be my favorite cycle but occasionally he really misses (his 92 is unforgivable to me).

The spreadsheet was meant to capture substantial (20ish symphonies or more) partial cycles that are no longer eligible for completion, and that pretty much everybody likes (e.g. no Hogwood). Added Harnoncourt 105 to the sheet.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Spotted Horses on October 24, 2022, 07:08:27 AM

Quote from: Florestan on October 24, 2022, 03:40:47 AM
There are 23 volumes of Fey/Heidelberg, covering 63 symphonies.

I hadn't realized there were so many. I only have a half-dozen or so. The prospect of collecting a half-complete set from full price releases and downloads isn't too attractive to me. Maybe when Heidelberg finishes the cycle they will box it up.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on October 24, 2022, 08:41:37 AM

Quote from: Spotted Horses on October 24, 2022, 07:08:27 AM
I hadn't realized there were so many. I only have a half-dozen or so. The prospect of collecting a half-complete set from full price releases and downloads isn't too attractive to me. Maybe when Heidelberg finishes the cycle they will box it up.

Hoping/assuming so - they already did box up the Londons I think?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: j winter on October 24, 2022, 09:16:08 AM

They've boxed the Londons and the Paris...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 24, 2022, 10:31:04 AM

Fey's seem to be among the most polarizing recordings ever. I can understand this because I basically stopped collecting them and got rid of two volumes (of "London" 94/104, 93/96/97) but kept 9. They are often abrasive, mannered etc. and sometimes this is invigorating, sometimes rather annoying. They were usually findable quite cheap around here, either used or in sales. The original issues had the Paris spread over three discs but IIRC these are all very good: 82/88/95, 83-85, 69/86/87.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: j winter on October 24, 2022, 10:46:17 AM

I enjoy Fey's recordings because they are distinctive with their combination of mostly modern instruments played with period style, brass and percussion; and as such I like to include them in the "mix" when I'm listening to Haydn symphonies. I have to admit that I treat Haydn a bit differently than most composers, because there is so much of it. Whereas with Beethoven or Brahms I will usually digest the symphonies one conductor at a time in sets, for me that's unmanageable with 107 symphonies. So I tend to jump around a lot when I'm in the mood for Haydn, hopping from Dorati to Fey, Szell, Bruggen, Jochum, Pinnock, et al more or less at random. I used to have a playlist that I carried on my iPod ages ago with Haydn 75-104, with a different conductor for each. For me it keeps things fresh, and also highlights how many different approaches work well with this music.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Spotted Horses on October 24, 2022, 10:54:26 AM

Quote from: j winter on October 24, 2022, 10:46:17 AM
I enjoy Fey's recordings because they are distinctive with their combination of mostly modern instruments played with period style, brass and percussion; and as such I like to include them in the "mix" when I'm listening to Haydn symphonies. I have to admit that I treat Haydn a bit differently than most composers, because there is so much of it. Whereas with Beethoven or Brahms I will usually digest the symphonies one conductor at a time in sets, for me that's unmanageable with 107 symphonies. So I tend to jump around a lot when I'm in the mood for Haydn, hopping from Dorati to Fey, Szell, Bruggen, Jochum, Pinnock, et al more or less at random. I used to have a playlist that I carried on my iPod ages ago with Haydn 75-104, with a different conductor for each. For me it keeps things fresh, and also highlights how many different approaches work well with this music.

That describes my experience as well. I find that the Norrington/Stuttgart Mozart is similar to Fey's Haydn. Very extroverted; not the be-all and end-all but bringing out a different aspect of the music than is typically heard.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: j winter on October 24, 2022, 11:23:40 AM

Quote from: Spotted Horses on October 24, 2022, 10:54:26 AM
That describes my experience as well. I find that the Norrington/Stuttgart Mozart is similar to Fey's Haydn. Very extroverted; not the be-all and end-all but bringing out a different aspect of the music than is typically heard.

I agree with that as well -- I picked this up a while back based on Sarge's recommendation, and have quite enjoyed it. Definitely not something to have as your only set of Londons, but an invigorating alternate approach.

(https://www.classicalsource.com/wp-content/uploads/8113_1.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Spotted Horses on October 24, 2022, 08:44:31 PM

Quote from: j winter on October 24, 2022, 11:23:40 AM
I agree with that as well -- I picked this up a while back based on Sarge's recommendation, and have quite enjoyed it. Definitely not something to have as your only set of Londons, but an invigorating alternate approach.

(https://www.classicalsource.com/wp-content/uploads/8113_1.jpg)

I'm guessing you'd also enjoy this:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41hnfh1uh8L.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on October 25, 2022, 05:44:31 AM

I cannot agree that Hogwood is dull. I enjoy the box considerably.

I could not get into Goodman on account of the harpsichord.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: j winter on October 25, 2022, 07:46:38 AM

Quote from: Spotted Horses on October 24, 2022, 08:44:31 PM
I'm guessing you'd also enjoy this:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41hnfh1uh8L.jpg)

Duly noted, thanks!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Spotted Horses on October 25, 2022, 08:37:39 AM

Quote from: j winter on October 25, 2022, 07:46:38 AM
Duly noted, thanks!

Expensive here, no?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on October 25, 2022, 09:10:55 AM

It was re-issued last year
[Asin]B08YDLNKRN[/asin]
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61yl5t68VML._SY780_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: j winter on October 25, 2022, 09:12:50 AM

Much obliged!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 25, 2022, 10:20:07 AM

Quote from: Madiel on October 25, 2022, 05:44:31 AM
I cannot agree that Hogwood is dull. I enjoy the box considerably.

I have about 1/2 (4x3 +1 discs) of his and they can sometimes be dull, or maybe better "neutral", mainly because of small ensemble, dryish sound, all repeats (I think one should skip some in less interesting or already rather long movements) and played usually very straightforward. If the music is colorful by its own like the #31 "Hornsignal", it's often pretty good but less so in pieces that need a bit help.

Quote
I could not get into Goodman on account of the harpsichord.

I am not fond of this feature but I like some of his quite a bit despite the hpschd. The sound is fuller and warmer than Hogwood and it's often a bit more lively/playful (although I can make direct comparisons only a few works this seems to me a general tendency).

Both Hogwood and Goodman are for me more "solid" than great but in some pieces there is so little competition that they still are a decent option (and this was even more the case 15-20 years ago when I was looking for Haydn symphonies).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 25, 2022, 12:03:45 PM

Quote from: j winter on October 25, 2022, 09:12:50 AM
Much obliged!

+ 1 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on October 27, 2022, 02:04:50 PM

Re Hogwood's Haydn, I was listening yesterday and today to some of my favourites from the period between the Sturm und Drag and the Paris Symphonies, which in the Decca Big Box (DBB) is covered by Hogwood. I find his approach restrained, very English ('steady on, old chap!'). I think back in the 80s he was concerned to put down a PI, non-mannered, very plain interpretation. As far as I'm concerned this is just right for the symphonies he supplies in the DBB. You can just listen and wonder at the music, thinking from time to time, 'did I hear that right?', 'did he really write that, in 1774?' and so forth. As for the repeats, well in the good symphonies it's great to hear all the repeats. I guess it would be dull in the less interesting symphonies.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Spenserian on November 13, 2022, 12:03:21 PM

It is interesting that Hogwood's tendency to be, in his own words, less than exuberant, is very much a deliberate choice that has to do with his philosophy on recording music. He explains it all in an interview with James Badal in the book Recording the Classics: Maestros, Music & Technology. This quote sums it up: "I personally try to restrain all the people who work with me when we record, and the performances we put on disc will tend to go for the lower end of the scale of exuberance." And earlier: "A recording is an artifact which is not a live performance and is only a measure of work in progress. ... For us, particularly working with early instruments, the recording situation is a laboratory, and what comes out of it is a laboratory report."

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on November 13, 2022, 12:20:46 PM

I find this a rather unplausible reasoning and luckily Hogwood is often a bit better than a lab report, or the music is just good enough. One could argue the opposite, that one should try to make up for the studio situation without the excitement of a live perfomance by injecting some extra exuberance.
Anyway, Hogwood's Haydn is not bad but I hesitate to recommend going out of one's way trying to obtain the oop expensive bulky 3 disc boxes. (The decision for 3 disc boxes as fat as an opera with an extra libretto shows how little concern for space there was in the 1990s, they were so expensive, people wouldn't buy so many discs anyway...;))

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on November 13, 2022, 06:02:08 PM

Well if you want the actual recordings, the 32 disc box will do. It might have been Gurn who supplied me with the original liner notes.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DaveF on November 16, 2022, 12:17:59 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on October 23, 2022, 11:22:28 AM
Märzendorfer was utterly unavailable for decades, except on (rare?) used LPs (it was also quite unknown, as I said above, I had not even heard about its existence until the internet). Then, later one might be able to get some semi-private transfers of them semi-legally on the internet. I probably had a bunch of them some time ago. When the whole thing was finally re-issued on CD, I was too saturated with Haydn to bother. It certainly had its fans all the time (as some other 1960s-70s Haydn LPs like Goberman, Jones, Blum).

And now available (the whole set) for £7.49 on Qobuz UK!
https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/haydn-the-complete-symphonies-vienna-chamber-orchestra-ernst-marzendorfer/w7h6d6pa5r3sa

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Spotted Horses on November 17, 2022, 06:37:31 AM

Quote from: DaveF on November 16, 2022, 12:17:59 PM
And now available (the whole set) for £7.49 on Qobuz UK!
https://www.qobuz.com/gb-en/album/haydn-the-complete-symphonies-vienna-chamber-orchestra-ernst-marzendorfer/w7h6d6pa5r3sa

...and for $7.99 on Qobuz USA.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on November 17, 2022, 06:39:04 AM

Quote from: Spotted Horses on November 17, 2022, 06:37:31 AM
...and for $7.99 on Qobuz USA.

Well, this resolves the tension between my curiosity and my hesitation to pay $70.00.
(I bought the Fischer set from Qobuz for a similar price.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Spotted Horses on November 17, 2022, 06:46:06 AM

Quote from: Brian on November 17, 2022, 06:39:04 AM
Well, this resolves the tension between my curiosity and my hesitation to pay $70.00.
(I bought the Fischer set from Qobuz for a similar price.)

I just got mine. Better get yours before the hard disk they store the files on burns out. :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on November 17, 2022, 05:51:41 PM

While you're busy downloading, I'm listening to this.
Very well done, I think.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51yhdfD-r5L._SY780_.jpg)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41z4g2-SIQL._SY780_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on November 17, 2022, 11:16:01 PM

Quote from: JBS on November 17, 2022, 05:51:41 PM
While you're busy downloading, I'm listening to this.
Very well done, I think.
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51yhdfD-r5L._SY780_.jpg)
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41z4g2-SIQL._SY780_.jpg)

Agreed. A very fine recording.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Valentino on January 05, 2023, 07:36:40 AM

A couple of months ago I stumbled across an old LP with Pablo Casals directing the Marlborough Festival Orchestra in Haydn Symphonies 94 (Bam!) and 95 at the hefty price of NOK 20. Damn fine music making it is! High charged, not like Hogwood in the studio at all.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Skogwald on February 04, 2023, 07:21:20 AM

Hi all! I just registered for this forum and was delighted to see that there are 643 pages of Haydn discussion ;D

I've been lately getting really into Haydn, for starters here are my favorite albums by him I've heard:

Quatuor Mosaiques - Opus 20
Quatuor Mosaiques - Opus 77
Ekaterina Derzhavina - Piano Sonatas
Levin/Beths/Bylsma - Last 4 Piano Trios

I haven't yet found his symphonies nearly as sublime as his quartets, keyboard sonatas and piano trios.

Auryn Quartet is my go-to in complete string quartets. They have a beautiful sound and have yet to disappoint me.

One part of Haydn's repertoire I feel quite alone in loving is the early keyboard sonatas - sure, they're not as Grand or Experimental as the late works, but there is a tremendous clarity and beauty in them. For me, Derzhavina is definitely the pianist who best manages to convey the beauty in these works.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: brewski on February 04, 2023, 09:16:12 AM

Quote from: Skogwald on February 04, 2023, 07:21:20 AMHi all! I just registered for this forum and was delighted to see that there are 643 pages of Haydn discussion ;D

I've been lately getting really into Haydn, for starters here are my favorite albums by him I've heard:

Quatuor Mosaiques - Opus 20
Quatuor Mosaiques - Opus 77
Ekaterina Derzhavina - Piano Sonatas
Levin/Beths/Bylsma - Last 4 Piano Trios

I haven't yet found his symphonies nearly as sublime as his quartets, keyboard sonatas and piano trios.

Auryn Quartet is my go-to in complete string quartets. They have a beautiful sound and have yet to disappoint me.

One part of Haydn's repertoire I feel quite alone in loving is the early keyboard sonatas - sure, they're not as Grand or Experimental as the late works, but there is a tremendous clarity and beauty in them. For me, Derzhavina is definitely the pianist who best manages to convey the beauty in these works.

Hi Skogwald, and welcome. (If you like, feel free to introduce yourself with a new post in the Introductions section of the board, here (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/board,2.0.html).) Yes, Haydn is quite popular here, since one of the current moderators, Gurn Blanston, is a big fan, as are many of the rest of us. I also saw your post in the Bacewicz thread, and I like her music very much as well.

In any case, have a good time.

-Bruce

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 04, 2023, 09:22:21 AM

Quote from: Skogwald on February 04, 2023, 07:21:20 AMOne part of Haydn's repertoire I feel quite alone in loving is the early keyboard sonatas - sure, they're not as Grand or Experimental as the late works, but there is a tremendous clarity and beauty in them.

Haydn's is the finest piano sonatas cycle ever penned. Ditto for Haydn's piano trios cycle. Be it said from an avowed Mozartian.

Welcome to the forum!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 04, 2023, 09:27:49 AM

Quote from: Skogwald on February 04, 2023, 07:21:20 AMHi all! I just registered for this forum and was delighted to see that there are 643 pages of Haydn discussion ;D

I've been lately getting really into Haydn, for starters here are my favorite albums by him I've heard:

Quatuor Mosaiques - Opus 20
Quatuor Mosaiques - Opus 77
Ekaterina Derzhavina - Piano Sonatas
Levin/Beths/Bylsma - Last 4 Piano Trios

I haven't yet found his symphonies nearly as sublime as his quartets, keyboard sonatas and piano trios.

Auryn Quartet is my go-to in complete string quartets. They have a beautiful sound and have yet to disappoint me.

One part of Haydn's repertoire I feel quite alone in loving is the early keyboard sonatas - sure, they're not as Grand or Experimental as the late works, but there is a tremendous clarity and beauty in them. For me, Derzhavina is definitely the pianist who best manages to convey the beauty in these works.

Welcome! Numerous fans here (myself included) of the Quatuor Mosaïques. I really enjoy Derzhavina, as well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on February 04, 2023, 09:40:33 AM

Quote from: Skogwald on February 04, 2023, 07:21:20 AMI haven't yet found his symphonies nearly as sublime as his quartets, keyboard sonatas and piano trios.

Keep trying! You'll eventually see the light.

Haydn is one of the most companionable composers, right up there with Mozart and Rossini.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DaveF on February 04, 2023, 10:13:33 AM

Quote from: Skogwald on February 04, 2023, 07:21:20 AMHi all! I just registered for this forum and was delighted to see that there are 643 pages of Haydn discussion ;D

I've been lately getting really into Haydn, for starters here are my favorite albums by him I've heard:

Quatuor Mosaiques - Opus 77

Auryn Quartet is my go-to in complete string quartets. They have a beautiful sound and have yet to disappoint me.

Yes, welcome indeed. The Mosaïques' version of Op.77/2 would go with me to a desert island. I always think of Picasso in the slow movement - "It took me three years to learn to draw like Raphael, and a lifetime to learn to draw like a child." I don't know the Auryn, but they're on my listening list now.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Skogwald on February 05, 2023, 01:13:14 AM

Thanks all! Seems like I will fit in here well 8)

By the way, what would be all of your preferred version of String Quartets, Opus 54? That has always been one of my favorites and it pains me that the Mosaiques never recorded it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on February 05, 2023, 04:41:15 AM

My favorite op. 54 is by the Juilliard Qt. but it's available only in a box and one has to live with lack of repeats and the typically dry and direct sound provided this ensemble in the 1960s.
I have heard good things about another 60s? or older recording (by the Allegri Qt? on Westminster or Vox?) but this was never on CD and I never found a grey source of LP transfers.

I have not kept up with the most recent recordings but the Endellion also made a solid recording of op.54 (can be found very cheaply). I'd have hoped that the Auryn would be very good. I have not heard the "London Haydn Qt", the period instrument recording by the Festetics is not among my favorites (they are good in #2 but too earthbound and slowish in #1) but worth trying (IIRC they are better in op.55 on the 2nd disc).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on February 05, 2023, 06:23:08 AM

Quote from: Skogwald on February 04, 2023, 07:21:20 AMI haven't yet found his symphonies nearly as sublime as his quartets, keyboard sonatas and piano trios.

The symphonies cover slightly different ground. Many are a bit more "crowd pleasers" for obvious reasons, but some also offer other aspects. The "wildest" quartet might be op.20/3 but some symphonies from around 1770 (39, 45, 49 etc.) ware far "stormier".
And in the late symphonies there are movements as subtle and sublime as any in the quartets. The most renowned slow movement might be in #88 (Brahms supposedly said he wanted his 9th symphony to sound like this (probably apocryphal). Tovey once wrote that the two best instrumental pieces by Haydn were the quartet op.77/2 and the symphonies 102 and 104.
There is also, more in earlier symphonies, the concertante element with soli and colorful instrumentation, e.g. in the "day times" 6-8 or "horn call" #31.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Skogwald on February 05, 2023, 07:22:31 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on February 05, 2023, 06:23:08 AMThe symphonies cover slightly different ground. Many are a bit more "crowd pleasers" for obvious reasons, but some also offer other aspects. The "wildest" quartet might be op.20/3 but some symphonies from around 1770 (39, 45, 49 etc.) ware far "stormier".
And in the late symphonies there are movements as subtle and sublime as any in the quartets. The most renowned slow movement might be in #88 (Brahms supposedly said he wanted his 9th symphony to sound like this (probably apocryphal). Tovey once wrote that the two best instrumental pieces by Haydn were the quartet op.77/2 and the symphonies 102 and 104.
There is also, more in earlier symphonies, the concertante element with soli and colorful instrumentation, e.g. in the "day times" 6-8 or "horn call" #31.

Thank you for this writeup. I might now just revisit these symphonies that you mentioned here!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mapman on February 05, 2023, 08:56:21 AM

Quote from: Skogwald on February 05, 2023, 07:22:31 AMThank you for this writeup. I might now just revisit these symphonies that you mentioned here!

I'm also still getting to know Haydn's symphonies, but I'll second the recommendation for #31 "Hornsignal". The 4th movement theme and variations is almost a concerto for orchestra.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on February 05, 2023, 09:00:05 AM

Quote from: Skogwald on February 04, 2023, 07:21:20 AMFor me, Derzhavina is definitely the pianist who best manages to convey the beauty in these works.

I rarely listen to the early sonatas, but I'll try to track down Derzhavina on streaming and give a listen.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on February 05, 2023, 09:27:18 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on February 05, 2023, 04:41:15 AMMy favorite op. 54 is by the Juilliard Qt.

Pro Arte for me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on February 05, 2023, 09:35:56 AM

With the Pro Arte one has to live not only with lack repeats but 1930s sound; I don't remember enough about this one, in fact because there series is so incomplete, I would not have known that op.54 is complete (it is, so is op.74). I got them when it came in the slim box but I have not listened to it enough (I probably went through the whole box about once) and never really got what's so special about them to make up for the historical sound, so I'd be wary to recommend them.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on February 05, 2023, 09:50:31 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on February 05, 2023, 09:35:56 AMWith the Pro Arte one has to live not only with lack repeats but 1930s sound; I don't remember enough about this one, in fact because there series is so incomplete, I would not have known that op.54 is complete (it is, so is op.74). I got them when it came in the slim box but I have not listened to it enough (I probably went through the whole box about once) and never really got what's so special about them to make up for the historical sound, so I'd be wary to recommend them.

And don't forget Lindsay for the second movement of op 54/2.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on February 05, 2023, 12:35:38 PM

My op.54 is the Endellion. But really, I think it's most unfortunate when people split 54/55, including performers. It should be a single set.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on February 05, 2023, 12:59:12 PM

Yes; apparently a publisher at Haydn's time or shortly thereafter started it but I dislike it as well. Because ensembles today should know better. Nevertheless, the separate Juilliard op.54 is my favorite recording.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: amw on February 05, 2023, 11:53:07 PM

There are good individual sets of Op. 54 and 55 by the Párkányí and Panocha Quartets respectively as well, both in modern sound; I don't hear them discussed very often and am curious as to other people's thoughts on them. (I usually also turn to the Juilliard Quartet in Op. 54 though.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on February 06, 2023, 12:55:56 AM

Well Panocha was my choice for 55, so I can say I liked them a lot.

I can't remember anymore exactly what I compared them to, but I was more than satisfied to use Endellion/Panocha as my 54/55 set.

This is all just reminding me of my need to follow through on buying my choices for 1, 2, 9 and 17...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on February 12, 2023, 06:06:54 PM

Here in Boston!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on February 12, 2023, 06:36:30 PM

Quote from: amw on February 05, 2023, 11:53:07 PMThere are good individual sets of Op. 54 and 55 by the Párkányí and Panocha Quartets respectively as well, both in modern sound; I don't hear them discussed very often and am curious as to other people's thoughts on them. (I usually also turn to the Juilliard Quartet in Op. 54 though.)

Yes, the Panocha Op. 55 is excellent. They also recorded Op. 33, which is available for download:

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8933040--haydn-string-quartets-nos-4-6
https://open.qobuz.com/album/livodryc9z5qb

Note that the title is incorrect; all 6 quartets are included in the download.

And they recorded Op. 76. Qobuz has it for download (2 discs), though I don't see it at Presto.

https://open.qobuz.com/album/zix6dzzqphqfb
https://open.qobuz.com/album/namsv92sseeob

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on February 13, 2023, 10:12:58 AM

I don't remember enough but I also have the Panocha op.55 and probably liked it. I bet the op.33 is pretty good but I am not paying for downloads.
If one can live with Brainins manners, the Amadeus is also pretty good in op.54/55, IIRC.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on February 13, 2023, 10:32:01 AM

Quote from: amw on February 05, 2023, 11:53:07 PMThere are good individual sets of Op. 54 and 55 by the Párkányí and Panocha Quartets respectively as well, both in modern sound; I don't hear them discussed very often and am curious as to other people's thoughts on them. (I usually also turn to the Juilliard Quartet in Op. 54 though.)

The thing that I like about Parkanyi is the sound, the sound and balance of the ensemble and the engineering.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on February 15, 2023, 10:50:50 AM

I watched on TV a concert from Helsinki Music Hall (conductor Maxim Emelyanychev). They played Haydn's Sinfonia Concertante (+Ligeti/Mendelssohn). I don't remember hearing the work before. I liked it a lot.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on February 15, 2023, 11:00:22 AM

I love the gorgeous slow movement of the Sinfonia concertante; the outer movements are good but not huge favorites.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on February 15, 2023, 02:50:21 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on February 15, 2023, 11:00:22 AMI love the gorgeous slow movement of the Sinfonia concertante; the outer movements are good but not huge favorites.

Yes, the slow movement is excellent!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Skogwald on February 19, 2023, 09:28:28 AM

Quote from: 71 dB on February 15, 2023, 10:50:50 AMI watched on TV a concert from Helsinki Music Hall (conductor Maxim Emelyanychev). They played Haydn's Sinfonia Concertante (+Ligeti/Mendelssohn). I don't remember hearing the work before. I liked it a lot.

I was there! It was a great, joyous performance of a brilliant piece. I also like how they went from Ligeti to Haydn

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: 71 dB on February 19, 2023, 09:36:53 AM

Quote from: Skogwald on February 19, 2023, 09:28:28 AMI was there! It was a great, joyous performance of a brilliant piece. I also like how they went from Ligeti to Haydn

Oh, that's cool! :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on April 24, 2023, 05:46:40 PM

While liatening to the London Haydn Quartet's newest (Opp 77/42 and Seven Last Words) I realized they aren't doing Opus 103. Anyone know why?

[And no one has visited the Haus in two months? :o

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 25, 2023, 02:33:27 AM

Quote from: JBS on April 24, 2023, 05:46:40 PMAnyone know why?

One presumes they decided not to do an incomplete work. Which is odd given it was published at the time.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DaveF on April 25, 2023, 04:29:49 AM

Quote from: JBS on April 24, 2023, 05:46:40 PMWhile liatening to the London Haydn Quartet's newest (Opp 77/42 and Seven Last Words) I realized they aren't doing Opus 103. Anyone know why?

No room? (2 discs already running to 2 hours 26 minutes.)

Also, if Presto's website is to be believed - https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9436376--haydn-string-quartets-op-42-77-seven-last-words - they also needed to leave space on the disc for a substantial chunk of Messiaen ???

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 25, 2023, 07:05:28 AM

The Festetics Qt. did not record op.1+2 either. These works even have been re-classified in the new Haydn edition as "Early divertimenti for string" or sth. like that.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on April 25, 2023, 07:34:21 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on April 25, 2023, 07:05:28 AMThe Festetics Qt. did not record op.1+2 either. These works even have been re-classified in the new Haydn edition as "Early divertimenti for string" or sth. like that.

But they did do Opus 103.
But not the 7 Last Words.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 25, 2023, 07:47:44 AM

The Festetics recorded the 7 last words years earlier for another label.
Almost everyone records op.103 because today it will easily fit on one CD with op.77; it's quite strange that they left it out.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on April 25, 2023, 09:15:40 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on April 25, 2023, 07:47:44 AMThe Festetics recorded the 7 last words years earlier for another label.
Almost everyone records op.103 because today it will easily fit on one CD with op.77; it's quite strange that they left it out.

They opted to place Opus 42 there instead.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 25, 2023, 10:58:08 AM

Sure, but op.103 lasts only about 11-12 min, it should fit in somewhere in a complete set; alternatively, op.42 (about 15 min) is often included with op.33; it's not either/or and both belong to a complete set. (IMO op.1+2 also belong, whereas I am not sure about 7 last words. With all respect to the 7 last words, I find it a bit bizarre that they are probably one of the 10 most frequently recorded "Haydn quartets))

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 25, 2023, 07:51:22 PM

Yes, and it's equally weird that the quartet version of the 7 Last Words is way more common than any other version of the work.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 26, 2023, 01:32:33 PM

Seven Last Words... - Preferences and recommendations?

Hi All - purchased the newest release by the London Haydn Quartet and just listened to and enjoyed the 'Last Words' - as is well known there are a variety of 'formats' for this work, i.e. string quartet, keyboard, orchestral, & choral - I now own the half dozen recordings below (no pure orchestral version - yet?). Do I need this many? Should I cull or add? Probably need to do some comparative listening; obviously the SQ approach seems to appeal to me the most.

BUT, please comment and add recommendations - BTW, a nice MusicWeb survey HERE (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2022/May/Haydn-last-words-survey.htm) - Dave :)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81l3UThMysL._SL1200_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71aD846Tr4L._SL1200_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81Z0d7l3GPL._SL1200_.jpg)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/619hH0KeqnL._SL1200_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51M14X1385L.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51x47tm4UXL._UX358_FMwebp_QL85_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 26, 2023, 03:28:11 PM

The Mosaiques managed to make the music sound interesting, which is not at all a given (one of the reasons I'm mystified about the SQ arrangement being so popular is the lack of instrumental colour).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on April 26, 2023, 03:29:48 PM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on April 26, 2023, 01:32:33 PMSeven Last Words... - Preferences and recommendations?

Think I prefer the orchestral version:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on April 26, 2023, 05:33:15 PM

I have Brautigam, Mosaiques, the newly arrived LHQ, and Harnoncourt
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51DWGxa1tzL._UF1000,1000_QL80_FMwebp_.jpg)
I seem to remember the Savall being a favorite of @Gurn Blanston .
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61zf-BKJvtL._UF1000,1000_QL80_FMwebp_.jpg)

ETA
I have the Aeolian Quartet set, which includes TSLW, but don't remember a thing about their performance.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: VonStupp on April 26, 2023, 05:49:59 PM

Dave, @SonicMan46 - Not to show my hand in how I prefer my Haydn, but I love the Muti/Berlin orchestral & Harnoncourt choral proffered above. :)
VS

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on May 05, 2023, 10:40:32 AM

https://www.jtilbury.com/joseph-haydn/

The link there is to John Tilbury playing the F minor variations. Worth a listen.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on May 09, 2023, 12:23:07 PM

I am currently reading an interesting Italian Ph. D. thesis

Le influenze su Rossini della musica di Haydn (https://core.ac.uk/download/18293868.pdf)

(The Influence of Haydn's Music on Rossini)

and on page 14 I read a paragraph which made me laugh out loud. It reads in Italian:

Tutt'altra situazione nel Regno di Napoli, perlomeno da ciò che traspare nelle lettere del segretario
dell'ambasciatore austriaco presso Ferdinando IV di Borbone, Norbert Hadrava: nella
corrispondenza datata 14 marzo 1786 egli racconta che durante gli intermezzi delle commedie
francesi che si davano al Teatro Reale "fu ordinato ai violinisti di corte di suonare. Sua Maestà il re
non ne poté più di sopportare la robaccia che quella gente suonava, e ordinò al primo violino di
mettere mano alle sinfonie di Haydn, che nella raccolta di musica del re sono disponibili in gran
copia, e di suonarle una dopo l'altra di tanto in tanto negli intermezzi. Ora per lo meno si sentiva
buona musica, anche se suonata in modo mediocre". La passione del re per Haydn doveva essere
profonda se egli, continua Hadrava, in un'occasione durante la quale gli strumentisti suonarono
malissimo una sua sinfonia, "ordinò che alla fine della commedia francese l'intera orchestra fosse
portata al posto di guardia; che l'ufficiale di guardia lasciasse tutti sul posto di picchetto fino a
nuovo ordine. Questa lezione ha avuto buoni effetti: la volta successiva hanno suonato abbastanza
bene una nuova sinfonia di Haydn, cosicché tutti gli ascoltatori se ne sono rallegrati di cuore"

And here is the English translation:

A completely different situation in the Kingdom of Naples, at least from what transpires in the letters of the Secretary of the Austrian Ambassador to Ferdinand IV of Bourbon, Norbert Hadrava: in a correspondence dated March 14, 1786 he recounts that during the interludes of the French play given in the Royal Theater "the court violinists were ordered to play. His Majesty the King couldn't stand any longer the crap these people played, and ordered the first violin to get their hands on Haydn's symphonies, which were available in large quantities in the king's music collection, and to play them one after the other as interludes. Now at least good music was heard, even if played in a mediocre way". The King's passion for Haydn was so profound, continues Hadrava, that on an occasion during which the instrumentalists played very badly a symphony of his "[His Majesty] ordered that at the end of the French comedy the whole orchestra be taken to the guardhouse; that the officer on the watch keep everyone in custody until new order. This lesson had a good effect: the next time they played a new symphony by Haydn reasonably well, so that all listeners heartily rejoiced."

Given Ferdinand's historically confirmed record of being both a fanatic lover of Haydn's music and a very impulsive and reckless man, I tend to believe it's true. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on May 25, 2023, 01:43:52 PM

Mostly for myself, really, a quick reference sheet to the Haydn Quartet recordings I own:

Opp. 1, 2, 9, 17 - apparently none?
Op. 20 - Mosaiques
Op. 33 - Auryn
Op. 42 - Auryn
Op. 50 - Auryn (and Prazak in Nos. 3, 5, 6 only)
Op. 54 - Endellion
Op. 55 - apparently none?
Op. 64 - Auryn
Op. 71 - Prazak, Takacs, Maxwell
Op. 74 - Endellion, Takacs, Maxwell
Op. 76 - Prazak, Chiaroscuro
Op. 77 - Auryn
Op. 103 - Auryn

No idea how Op. 55 fell through the cracks. This situation must be resolved immediately! I'm also sufficiently enamored with Opp. 33, 64, and 77 to think about getting extra/supplemental recordings.

Edit: Just remembered that, through Qobuz, I purchased digital downloads of the Panocha in Op. 55, along with Opp. 76 complete and 33 Nos 1-4. Now, why on earth did I buy the partial Op. 33 vinyl rip when I could have purchased the complete set available on a different listing?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on May 26, 2023, 07:37:30 AM

Probably the complete Panocha op.33 was not yet available earlier? I don't know it, have only seen a ~30 yo CD of 1-4.

op. 9 + 17 are really underrated. Sure, they don't come close to op.20 but they were written only about 2-3 years before, in a sense all 18 form the real start of the string quartets after the divertimenti from about 10 years earlier.
There are few movements that seem a bit stiff/formulaic and several slow movements are basically accompanied violin solos (still very nice) but they are all worth listening to.

With few exceptions the ones before op.20 have only been recorded within complete traversals.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on May 26, 2023, 08:52:33 AM

Quote from: Brian on May 25, 2023, 01:43:52 PMMostly for myself, really, a quick reference sheet to the Haydn Quartet recordings I own:

Opp. 1, 2, 9, 17 - apparently none?
Op. 20 - Mosaiques
Op. 33 - Auryn
Op. 42 - Auryn
Op. 50 - Auryn
Op. 54 - Endellion
Op. 55 - apparently none?
Op. 64 - Auryn
Op. 71 - Prazak, Takacs, Maxwell
Op. 74 - Endellion, Takacs, Maxwell
Op. 76 - Prazak, Chiaroscuro
Op. 77 - Auryn
Op. 103 - Auryn

No idea how Op. 55 fell through the cracks. This situation must be resolved immediately! I'm also sufficiently enamored with Opp. 33, 64, and 77 to think about getting extra/supplemental recordings.

Edit: Just remembered that, through Qobuz, I purchased digital downloads of the Panocha in Op. 55, along with Opp. 76 complete and 33 Nos 1-4. Now, why on earth did I buy the partial Op. 33 vinyl rip when I could have purchased the complete set available on a different listing?

Opus 1-9: the Kodaly Quartet is probably a safe bet, especially if you just want them as a download; I'd suggest London Haydn Quartet for Opus 17.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Mandryka on May 26, 2023, 09:37:13 AM

Quote from: Brian on May 25, 2023, 01:43:52 PMMostly for myself, really, a quick reference sheet to the Haydn Quartet recordings I own:

Opp. 1, 2, 9, 17 - apparently none?
Op. 20 - Mosaiques
Op. 33 - Auryn
Op. 42 - Auryn
Op. 50 - Auryn
Op. 54 - Endellion
Op. 55 - apparently none?
Op. 64 - Auryn
Op. 71 - Prazak, Takacs, Maxwell
Op. 74 - Endellion, Takacs, Maxwell
Op. 76 - Prazak, Chiaroscuro
Op. 77 - Auryn
Op. 103 - Auryn

No idea how Op. 55 fell through the cracks. This situation must be resolved immediately! I'm also sufficiently enamored with Opp. 33, 64, and 77 to think about getting extra/supplemental recordings.

Edit: Just remembered that, through Qobuz, I purchased digital downloads of the Panocha in Op. 55, along with Opp. 76 complete and 33 Nos 1-4. Now, why on earth did I buy the partial Op. 33 vinyl rip when I could have purchased the complete set available on a different listing?

What about the 7 last words?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on May 26, 2023, 10:07:22 AM

Quote from: VonStupp on April 26, 2023, 05:49:59 PMDave, @SonicMan46 - Not to show my hand in how I prefer my Haydn, but I love the Muti/Berlin orchestral & Harnoncourt choral proffered above. :)
VS

Thanks All for the suggestions - has been a few weeks since my post, but found a used copy of Harnoncourt on the Amazon MP (will cull out my Jurowski which on re-looking had mixed reviews); cannot find the Muti (i.e. his second recording w/ the Berliners) on Amazon or on eBay - Prestomusic has a CD-R but pricey; on Spotify and will take a listen. Also decided to buy the Lubimov on tangent piano (excellent AllMusic Review (https://www.allmusic.com/album/haydn-the-seven-last-words-of-christ-mw0002655054) - eBay used & cheap) - Dave :)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51DWGxa1tzL.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51suaOwTkHL.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Atriod on May 26, 2023, 01:03:29 PM

Quote from: Brian on May 25, 2023, 01:43:52 PMMostly for myself, really, a quick reference sheet to the Haydn Quartet recordings I own:

Opp. 1, 2, 9, 17 - apparently none?
Op. 20 - Mosaiques
Op. 33 - Auryn
Op. 42 - Auryn
Op. 50 - Auryn (and Prazak in Nos. 3, 5, 6 only)
Op. 54 - Endellion
Op. 55 - apparently none?
Op. 64 - Auryn
Op. 71 - Prazak, Takacs, Maxwell
Op. 74 - Endellion, Takacs, Maxwell
Op. 76 - Prazak, Chiaroscuro
Op. 77 - Auryn
Op. 103 - Auryn

No idea how Op. 55 fell through the cracks. This situation must be resolved immediately! I'm also sufficiently enamored with Opp. 33, 64, and 77 to think about getting extra/supplemental recordings.

Edit: Just remembered that, through Qobuz, I purchased digital downloads of the Panocha in Op. 55, along with Opp. 76 complete and 33 Nos 1-4. Now, why on earth did I buy the partial Op. 33 vinyl rip when I could have purchased the complete set available on a different listing?

Petersen Quartet must be heard in op. 1, they play these pieces with such vigor and enthusiasm. IIRC this was an amw recommendation for me in my Haydn SQ thread I started in the "Great Recordings and Reviews" subforum, aside from a Brentano Quartet CD this was by far my best purchase from that thread.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on May 29, 2023, 06:59:10 AM

Quote from: Mandryka on May 26, 2023, 09:37:13 AMWhat about the 7 last words?

Not. Quartets.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on May 29, 2023, 07:01:02 AM

My plan is to buy Auryn for opuses 1,2 and 9. I actually like them better in those early works than I do in later ones (extensive sampling rather than owning).

For op.17 I'm going to get the Leipzig. Their set is not complete yet (and they are mixing up their album order a bit unpredictably).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on June 04, 2023, 10:56:01 AM

Guarneri Trio Prague celebrates 35th anniversary with CD of Haydn piano trios (https://www.earrelevant.net/2023/06/guarneri-trio-prague-celebrates-35th-anniversary-with-cd-of-haydn-piano-trios/)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on June 04, 2023, 12:08:38 PM

Quote from: Atriod on May 26, 2023, 01:03:29 PMPetersen Quartet must be heard in op. 1, they play these pieces with such vigor and enthusiasm.

They really make most of this music; it's a pity they never recorded any mature Haydn. opp.1,2,9 and 17 are also among the best parts of the Angeles Quartet box but of course not available separately.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Atriod on June 10, 2023, 05:24:52 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on June 04, 2023, 12:08:38 PMThey really make most of this music; it's a pity they never recorded any mature Haydn. opp.1,2,9 and 17 are also among the best parts of the Angeles Quartet box but of course not available separately.

They never completed their Beethoven cycle either which is superb.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on June 22, 2023, 10:14:22 PM

I'm sure that in 646 pages someone has already pointed this out, but I was listening to it today and it's quite a hoot. Even if you only hear the Overture it makes quite a different impression than it does as the opening movement of Symphony No.63.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: lordlance on September 22, 2023, 12:17:52 PM

I have only heard a few things by Paray but this is his most impressive performance so far:

Highly recommended.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on September 22, 2023, 04:51:22 PM

Quote from: lordlance on September 22, 2023, 12:17:52 PMI have only heard a few things by Paray but this is his most impressive performance so far:

Highly recommended.

Nice!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: lordlance on September 26, 2023, 12:06:44 PM

Barbirolli's reputation has been puzzling given how dull so many of his recordings have been in my experience but this is a very spirited Haydn 92:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 11, 2023, 02:31:13 AM

Does anyone remember when Sarge, I, and maybe Gurn? tried to name Haydn's Symphony No.99 "The Cat"?

Well, we haven't yet succeeded universally, but we have made it into the backpages of Wikipedia. :-)

Screenshot 2023-10-11 122632.png

Screenshot 2023-10-11 122741.png

Let the good (cat-) fight continue!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on October 11, 2023, 05:22:42 AM

Incredible! It even got onto a concert program somewhere?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 11, 2023, 07:13:41 AM

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on October 11, 2023, 02:31:13 AMDoes anyone remember when Sarge, I, and maybe Gurn? tried to name Haydn's Symphony No.99 "The Cat"?

Well, we haven't yet succeeded universally, but we have made it into the backpages of Wikipedia. :-)

Screenshot 2023-10-11 122632.png

Screenshot 2023-10-11 122741.png

Let the good (cat-) fight continue!

Oh, I do recall.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SurprisedByBeauty on October 11, 2023, 07:17:30 AM

Quote from: Brian on October 11, 2023, 05:22:42 AMIncredible! It even got onto a concert program somewhere?

Oh, maybe not as incredible as all that. It could well be from this entry on MusicWeb Int., when I did my magic as European Editor. :-)

https://seenandheard-international.com/2011/05/nielsen_beethoven_haydn_symphony99_thecat_lso_uchida_davis/ (https://seenandheard-international.com/2011/05/nielsen_beethoven_haydn_symphony99_thecat_lso_uchida_davis/)

But Forbes agrees, too: https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/04/05/classical-cd-of-the-week-lose-your-heart-in-heidelbergs-spark-plug-haydn/ (https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenslaurson/2017/04/05/classical-cd-of-the-week-lose-your-heart-in-heidelbergs-spark-plug-haydn/) ;D

And I'll sneak it into a newspaper, yet. Not had an opportunity at Wiener Zeitung, but maybe at Die Presse.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on October 12, 2023, 05:36:26 AM

I was pretty certain one of you guys had actually put it into the wikipedia article! ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on October 17, 2023, 01:32:08 PM

The Philosopher opens (https://www.earrelevant.net/2023/10/yo-yo-ma-and-boston-symphony-orchestra-deliver-impressive-one-two-punch-with-shostakovich-cello-concertos/)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on October 26, 2023, 09:31:08 AM

I don't think this was previously posted?
Although no CD re-issue of these classic recordings on 18th-century instruments from 1969-1971 have been issued, Orpheus has them as digital downloads - on sale! - at this site:

https://www.classicselectworld.com/products/haydn-the-last-sixteen-piano-trios-huguette-dreyfus-vogt-mp3-digital-download

These LP's had very good sound, and the American-issued silver-label MHS box had good surfaces - but they never ran out of their original pressing, I suppose, since they never appeared on the improved green-label vinyl records they produced. I've never come across the french-label editions on Valois, et al in the vinyl shoppes.
Huguette Dreyfus was an excellent player, and Vogt and Melkus were no slouches, either.

Recommended, if you can't track down the vinyl - which appears irregularly on eBay, etc.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Scion7 on October 26, 2023, 09:55:49 AM

^ all of these are on Youtube for a listen, but the MRKV Music Group or whatever they call themselves did not create a topic for them, so they are scattered all over - but if you search on "Haydn-Piano Trio, Hobb.XV:____, Huguette Dreyfus" you can find them by the Hobson's catalogue number - because YT will not generate a complete list - some will be missing.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: lordlance on November 20, 2023, 05:33:59 AM

A terrific Haydn 100 for those looking for a new performance that's modern instrument but HIP-influenced:

I did not know until today that Haydn asks for the percussion to enter the hall and march towards the stage. Haydn sure loved using novelties in his symphonies, huh?

There's no information on the video about the orchestra or the year of performance. If anyone has any clue, please let me know.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on November 20, 2023, 06:43:36 AM

Quote from: lordlance on November 20, 2023, 05:33:59 AMA terrific Haydn 100 for those looking for a new performance that's modern instrument but HIP-influenced:

Nothing is there, what are you talking about?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: lordlance on November 20, 2023, 07:52:56 AM

Quote from: DavidW on November 20, 2023, 06:43:36 AMNothing is there, what are you talking about?

Edited.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on November 20, 2023, 11:26:57 AM

Quote from: lordlance on November 20, 2023, 05:33:59 AMA terrific Haydn 100 for those looking for a new performance that's modern instrument but HIP-influenced:

I did not know until today that Haydn asks for the percussion to enter the hall and march towards the stage. Haydn sure loved using novelties in his symphonies, huh?

There's no information on the video about the orchestra or the year of performance. If anyone has any clue, please let me know.

That thing you didn't know until today... how do you know it now?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Anooj on November 21, 2023, 06:16:36 AM

Regarding the Adam Fischer set of complete symphonies, it seems to generally be agreed that the Paris and London symphonies are the weak link there. I've been thinking of getting that set, and since I already have very satisfactory recordings of the Paris & London symphonies, it won't really matter if those are indeed inferior.

But what about the intermediary symphonies 88-92? Are those problematic too? Or should I instead go for the Naxos complete set, which right now is on sale at JPC?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on November 21, 2023, 07:28:41 AM

The Naxos set is with half a dozen different conductors/ensembles recorded over 20 years or more. It's very uneven although I admittedly have heard only a handful of discs and they were mostly decent.

I like Fischer, although it's also uneven and took almost 20 years for completion. I don't remember enough about his 88-92, they are probably not up with the best. I dimly recall that I liked his 91 (could also have been 84, both Eb major) but not his 90. The Concertante is pretty good and has famous Vienna soloists, I think.

The Fischer is 3 EUR more than Naxos right now on jpc which is not cheap (it used to be 30-40 EUR a few years ago, I think), but I'd probably still go for Fischer.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on November 21, 2023, 08:17:49 AM

Quote from: Anooj on November 21, 2023, 06:16:36 AMRegarding the Adam Fischer set of complete symphonies, it seems to generally be agreed that the Paris and London symphonies are the weak link there. I've been thinking of getting that set, and since I already have very satisfactory recordings of the Paris & London symphonies, it won't really matter if those are indeed inferior.

But what about the intermediary symphonies 88-92? Are those problematic too? Or should I instead go for the Naxos complete set, which right now is on sale at JPC?

I really think that it is only the Londons that are questionable. You can certainly do better in the Paris and Chunnel symphonies than Fischer but they're pretty good. The Fischer set is highly consistent. I've heard a few sets and the only I thought was competitive was Dorati, which is long oop.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on November 21, 2023, 11:16:17 AM

Quote from: Anooj on November 21, 2023, 06:16:36 AMRegarding the Adam Fischer set of complete symphonies, it seems to generally be agreed that the Paris and London symphonies are the weak link there. I've been thinking of getting that set, and since I already have very satisfactory recordings of the Paris & London symphonies, it won't really matter if those are indeed inferior.

But what about the intermediary symphonies 88-92? Are those problematic too? Or should I instead go for the Naxos complete set, which right now is on sale at JPC?

The basic rule of thumb is that the later the recording date in the Fischer set, the better the performance. I don't know when 88-92 were recorded but it should be possible to find this information somewhere.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on November 21, 2023, 01:05:31 PM

Yes, that's the rule of thumb for the Fischer set, and it applies also to sound quality!

1987 101, 103
1988 102, 100, 96, 94, 105, 45
1989 93, 95, 97, 98, 99, 104, 6, 7, 8, 22, 24, 27
1990 1-5, 9-12, 92, 25, 88, 90
1991 13-20, 40, 91, 83, 85, 89
1992 82, 86
1994 42-44, 51, 52, 84, 87
1995 41, 46-50, 53, 54
1996 55-61, 63
1997 62, 64-71, 73
1998 72, 74-81
2000 21, 23, 26, 28, 29, A, B
2001 30-39

As the Brilliant issue has the discs in numerical order, one sometimes gets one of the weaker earlier recordings right next to a much better one. I remember this clearly about 21 and 26 both of which are very good, maybe the best recording of them on modern instruments (but by then Fischer was somewhat influenced by HIP) while 22, 24, 27 are rather lame.
I am not sure and it's been a while I heard any of them but I think the ones recorded since 1994 are considerably better.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on November 21, 2023, 03:13:24 PM

I bought the separate box covering symphonies 70-81, both because it covered some symphonies that are quite hard to get and because it's got some of the very best performances.

Edit: For 88-92 I actually have a nice 2CD set, I want to say it's Kuijken (spelling?).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on November 21, 2023, 03:36:16 PM

Quote from: Madiel on November 21, 2023, 03:13:24 PMI bought the separate box covering symphonies 70-81, both because it covered some symphonies that are quite hard to get and because it's got some of the very best performances.

Edit: For 88-92 I actually have a nice 2CD set, I want to say it's Kuijken (spelling?).

Kiujken's is an excellent set, so if it's not it should be.

While on the subject of complete sets:
How is Buchbinder's set of the piano sonatas? It's rather cheap on both Amazon and Presto, and I don't have a set on modern piano--just the Brautigam and Beghin sets. Fullest I have on modern piano is Hamelin's series.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: lordlance on November 21, 2023, 10:08:15 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on November 21, 2023, 07:28:41 AMThe Naxos set is with half a dozen different conductors/ensembles recorded over 20 years or more. It's very uneven although I admittedly have heard only a handful of discs and they were mostly decent.

I like Fischer, although it's also uneven and took almost 20 years for completion. I don't remember enough about his 88-92, they are probably not up with the best. I dimly recall that I liked his 91 (could also have been 84, both Eb major) but not his 90. The Concertante is pretty good and has famous Vienna soloists, I think.

The Fischer is 3 EUR more than Naxos right now on jpc which is not cheap (it used to be 30-40 EUR a few years ago, I think), but I'd probably still go for Fischer.

You can also get this set if you want 88-92 with a tasty bonus of the Sinfonia Concertante:

(https://img.cdandlp.com/2018/01/imgL/119031653-3.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: lordlance on November 21, 2023, 10:10:11 PM

Quote from: Madiel on November 20, 2023, 11:26:57 AMThat thing you didn't know until today... how do you know it now?

From watching the performance.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on November 21, 2023, 11:25:57 PM

yes, I like that Rattle/Berlin box quite a bit (although not all do). Haven't heard Kuijken but his other Haydn symphonies rank from good to great, so I'd imagine them to be good as well. Hugh Wolf did them with Frankfurt but on 3 disc with other fillers and no concertante, IIRC. They are also among Dorati's best, his 90 used to be my favorite. Of course 88 and 92 are quite well covered anyway.

For ~70-80 Fischer is both at his best and has only little competition, mostly Goodman (no 79-81 and annoying harpsichord) and a few scattered recordings like Rattle in 70, Harnoncourt in 73 etc.

The partial Nimbus boxes were introuvable or expensive for some time but with the Brilliant box not as cheap anymore, they might be an option again, also for ca. 50-70.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on November 22, 2023, 01:16:58 AM

Quote from: lordlance on November 21, 2023, 10:10:11 PMFrom watching the performance.

Watching a performance doesn't tell you that the percussion marching onto stage was Haydn's idea, unless somewhere in the video they actually tell you it was Haydn's instruction.

I've seen a marvellous live performance of The Rite of Spring where the orchestra incorporated an enormous amount of movement, in the absence of any ballet dancers. That wasn't Stravinsky's idea.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: lordlance on November 22, 2023, 03:46:09 AM

Quote from: Madiel on November 22, 2023, 01:16:58 AMWatching a performance doesn't tell you that the percussion marching onto stage was Haydn's idea, unless somewhere in the video they actually tell you it was Haydn's instruction.

I've seen a marvellous live performance of The Rite of Spring where the orchestra incorporated an enormous amount of movement, in the absence of any ballet dancers. That wasn't Stravinsky's idea.

Oh I assumed it was Haydn's idea much like he did with Farewell or other little novelties like false endings. Do you know that this was not Haydn's idea?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on November 22, 2023, 03:53:16 AM

Quote from: lordlance on November 22, 2023, 03:46:09 AMOh I assumed it was Haydn's idea much like he did with Farewell or other little novelties like false endings. Do you know that this was not Haydn's idea?

I know that you're the only person I've ever seen suggest that it was. Given how often the scenario in the Farewell symphony is mentioned, I would find it incredibly strange if the score of the Military had a stage direction all this time and nobody had ever mentioned it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on November 22, 2023, 05:43:48 AM

It's not in the score. But as the use of the military percussion is a bit gimmicky anyway, I wouldn't say it's against the spirit to enhance it by giving them a special effect of entering.

I think I have heard one recording of Bibers "Battaglia" where they used some effect like passing musicians from left to right on a cart so that they sound like moving band.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on November 22, 2023, 05:58:59 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on November 22, 2023, 05:43:48 AMIt's not in the score. But as the use of the military percussion is a bit gimmicky anyway, I wouldn't say it's against the spirit to enhance it by giving them a special effect of entering.

I think I have heard one recording of Bibers "Battaglia" where they used some effect like passing musicians from left to right on a cart so that they sound like moving band.

Oh no, I'm certainly not intending to suggest there's something wrong with the marching idea. I agree it fits the spirit of the piece perfectly well.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: lordlance on November 22, 2023, 07:56:37 AM

If it is Honeck's invention, it's a really great idea honestly. I really liked it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: lordlance on November 22, 2023, 08:08:06 AM

I found the original upload of the Haydn 100. Turns out it is with Israel Philharmonic:

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 22, 2023, 08:24:15 AM

Quote from: lordlance on November 22, 2023, 07:56:37 AMIf it is Honeck's invention, it's a really great idea honestly. I really liked it.

A kind of inversion of the Farewell Symphony.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on November 22, 2023, 07:38:37 PM

Honeck has a reputation for these kinds of creative but appropriate and enjoyable additions to music he conducts.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on November 22, 2023, 08:54:56 PM

Quote from: Brian on November 22, 2023, 07:38:37 PMHoneck has a reputation for these kinds of creative but appropriate and enjoyable additions to music he conducts.

In other words, he has taste.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on November 22, 2023, 11:16:14 PM

Quote from: Brian on November 22, 2023, 07:38:37 PMHoneck has a reputation for these kinds of creative but appropriate and enjoyable additions to music he conducts.

Sticking with Haydn, I wonder how he'd tackle The Miracle... :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on November 23, 2023, 12:08:08 AM

Quote from: Florestan on November 22, 2023, 11:16:14 PMSticking with Haydn, I wonder how he'd tackle The Miracle... :D

Hopefully he'd start by switching to the symphony during which the miraculous event actually happened.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on November 23, 2023, 12:34:47 AM

Chandelier accidents have been trivialized by Phantom of the Opera, I am afraid. ;)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on November 23, 2023, 01:07:38 AM

Quote from: Madiel on November 23, 2023, 12:08:08 AMHopefully he'd start by switching to the symphony during which the miraculous event actually happened.

That would turn it into a Surprise. :D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 23, 2023, 08:23:32 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on November 23, 2023, 12:34:47 AMChandelier accidents have been trivialized by Phantom of the Opera, I am afraid. ;)

The Lloyd Webber Effect?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on November 23, 2023, 08:24:08 AM

Quote from: Florestan on November 23, 2023, 01:07:38 AMThat would turn it into a Surprise. :D

(* chortle *)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: lordlance on December 11, 2023, 09:14:08 AM

I'm hunting for an "ultra" HIP recording of Symphony 104 - clipped phrasing, fast tempi, aggressive attack, period instrument a La Norrington Haydn 82. I recently heard Gardiner's live 104 with LSO on YouTube but the acoustics were bad (COVID) and he went limp in the finale unlike his ultra HIP Mendelssohn cycle.

Any suggestions?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on December 11, 2023, 09:32:03 AM

There is an earlier recording by Norrington (1980s EMI/Virgin, I think) that you could try but I have never heard it. Neither Minkowski's who is always a candidate for madness. A favorite of mine but this might be too moderate for these demands is Kuijken/harmonia mundi.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on December 11, 2023, 09:36:49 AM

Another vote for Minkowski, who is a wild demon in the Londons. He should be frenetic enough for you.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 02, 2024, 08:22:21 AM

I saw the brief discussion above concerning whether Haydn had actually arranged a Turkish section to appear for the march in the Allegretto. He didn't, at least it is nowhere documented. However, that isn't to say the concept escaped him. He just approached it differently. Here is the review which appeared in the AMZ shortly after the premiere:

QuoteIn reviewing this symphony, the reviewer for the Allgemeine Musikalische Zeitung, in Vienna, noted some things which differentiated it from its contemporaries of the London era.

... it is therefore unnecessary to say anything further about this symphony, composed in London by the great master, except that it is one of the finest he has written. It is somewhat less learned, and easier to take in, than some of the other newest works by him, but it is still just as rich in new ideas. The effect of surprise cannot perhaps be pushed further than it is here, when in the second movement we are utterly surprised by the full Janissary music in the minore – up to the point that we had no idea that these Turkish instruments were part of the symphony's scoring. But here, too, we see not only the inventive but also the prudent artist. The Andante [recte: Allegretto] is conceived as a whole: for despite all the pleasantness and lightness with which the composer in the first part attempts to distract attention from the coming coup, it is laid out and worked out like a march...

So if the audience didn't know the instruments were to be used, it seems highly unlikely the players were lolling about onstage dangling their triangles and the like, so my guess is that they maybe didn't come out like a marching band, but they were at least introduced in some surprising way.

The original question here was about brisk performances. Minkowski is a good choice, although I dislike his treatment of the surprise. It was amusing the first time, Haydn's original is amusing every time. Norrington with his London outfit do a really nice job, quite after your description, but they only do the last 6. Kuijken would surely not suit you. It is my favorite cycle, but it's very much played straight, no punching up anything, memorable only for its wonderful execution. Like Bruggen in that way, but I like the band better.

🤠

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on January 02, 2024, 10:53:00 AM

Somewhat heretically, the "Military" might be my least favorite of the London set, so (unlike 104) I never did much listening/comparing. It was a favorite Scherchen's, though, one of the few he re-recorded in stereo (much better sound and playing) and this one is worth trying out (it was in his EMI great conductors volume) although it's rather slow in the allegretto but the contrasts are very strong with terrifying percussion and the finale is manically fast.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on January 02, 2024, 11:37:11 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 02, 2024, 08:22:21 AMKuijken would surely not suit you. It is my favorite cycle, but it's very much played straight, no punching up anything, memorable only for its wonderful execution. Like Bruggen in that way, but I like the band better.

🤠

Kuijken and Bruggen are also my favorites. But the new project is upending all of my old choices, and 2032 will be releasing some Londons with volume 16 in a few months.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 02, 2024, 12:20:21 PM

Quote from: DavidW on January 02, 2024, 11:37:11 AMKuijken and Bruggen are also my favorites. But the new project is upending all of my old choices, and 2032 will be releasing some Londons with volume 16 in a few months.

Yes, I have several new favorites in that series already. Hope I get to hear them all. It's seeming to take forever to actually release them, but OTOH, they are especially good because they are rehearsing on the road for quite a while before recording. That was a problem with some other cycles, sounded like they were doing a prima vista performance.

🤠

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on January 27, 2024, 09:28:17 AM

crosspost from New Releases

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81i9PRbSv4L._SL1500_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91nR93+vktL._SL1500_.jpg)

Amazon.DE says March 29.

I missed the similar-looking Max Goberman Haydn box...have not heard anything about these recordings before.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on January 27, 2024, 03:59:51 PM

Quote from: Brian on January 27, 2024, 09:28:17 AMcrosspost from New Releases

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81i9PRbSv4L._SL1500_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91nR93+vktL._SL1500_.jpg)

Amazon.DE says March 29.

I missed the similar-looking Max Goberman Haydn box...have not heard anything about these recordings before.

@Gurn Blanston has definitely mentioned them a few times here and on his website.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on January 27, 2024, 11:32:22 PM

Too late. I have 11 symphonies of the Solomons recordings that were available on CD in the 80s/90s and heard a few more in LP transfers that used to be on the web years ago.
While I like some of them a lot, it's somewhat scratchy, very small ensemble HIP playing that would have been great to have on CD at that time because it's usually far more intense and expressive as e.g. Hogwood's.
But I fear that 40 years later it's mainly for specialists, partly because of the incompleteness, partly because despite its qualities Solomons' Haydn is hardly as special and desirable today as it would have been even in the late 1990s. I'd certainly have bought the set even about 10 years ago (when I was happy to find a 3 disc set of the few CBS releases used) but today I'll probably pass.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2024, 07:48:10 AM

Jo may be right about being for specialists, I don't know about that, but I have had all of those for many years, the commercially available ones as well as the LP transfers. Yes, they are played with the same size band that Haydn wrote them for and premiered them with. Which is anywhere from 12-16 people. This has given them a wonderful transparency that lets you hear the music like it was a chamber piece. Which it was, actually. Obviously, comparison to larger groups' efforts will find them lacking in robustness, which bothers me not in the least, but YMMV.

If you already have the CBS releases and enjoy them, picking up that box is a no-brainer. Solomons is the true pioneer of HIP Haydn symphonies.

🤠

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2024, 07:51:35 AM

Quote from: Brian on January 27, 2024, 09:28:17 AMcrosspost from New Releases

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81i9PRbSv4L._SL1500_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91nR93+vktL._SL1500_.jpg)

Amazon.DE says March 29.

I missed the similar-looking Max Goberman Haydn box...have not heard anything about these recordings before.

Looking at this, it appears to contain even more than the LP transfers I have, which I believe total 12. Clearly I have to get this one myself. Can't wait!

🤠

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on January 28, 2024, 08:15:41 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2024, 07:48:10 AMJo may be right about being for specialists, I don't know about that, but I have had all of those for many years, the commercially available ones as well as the LP transfers. Yes, they are played with the same size band that Haydn wrote them for and premiered them with. Which is anywhere from 12-16 people. This has given them a wonderful transparency that lets you hear the music like it was a chamber piece. Which it was, actually. Obviously, comparison to larger groups' efforts will find them lacking in robustness, which bothers me not in the least, but YMMV.

If you already have the CBS releases and enjoy them, picking up that box is a no-brainer. Solomons is the true pioneer of HIP Haydn symphonies.

I agree, and despite my somewhat critical remarks above I am on record (probably findable on this very forum) for recommending the 2-3 reissue discs with Solomon that were available, incl. 39,45,48,49,59. Admittedly, I was not as convinced by the 3 disc box I got much later (42, 45, 46, 47, 51 & 65). No way I am paying 75 Euros (current Amazon price), maybe if it falls to ~40, otherwise I'll pass and remain happy with the ones I have.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2024, 08:20:42 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on January 28, 2024, 08:15:41 AMI agree, and despite my somewhat critical remarks above I am on record (probably findable on this very forum) for recommending the 2-3 reissue discs with Solomon that were available, incl. 39,45,48,49,59. Admittedly, I was not as convinced by the 3 disc box I got much later (42, 45, 46, 47, 51 & 65). No way I am paying 75 Euros (current Amazon price), maybe if it falls to ~40, otherwise I'll pass and remain happy with the ones I have.

Yes, 75 is a bit more Euros than I care to part with also. Maybe they'll show up on Presto and I will download the FLACs. I haven't bought a CD in 3 years now... 🧐🤠

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2024, 10:22:07 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2024, 07:51:35 AMLooking at this, it appears to contain even more than the LP transfers I have, which I believe total 12. Clearly I have to get this one myself. Can't wait!

I just got an opportunity to check mine,

Commercial releases:
CBS 2 disk box, contents listed by Jo
CBS 3 disk box, ditto
CBS single disk, #45 & 48

9 disks from HaydnHouse that are LP transfers. I can list them if need be, but the main thing is the total. = 15 disks, so, 3 new ones.

It isn't the sort of info I carry in my head for quick access, but I recall during my writing about the works around 1768-74, there are different versions of the same symphony, differences ranging from more or fewer instruments to entirely different finales or introductions. If you look at the Hogwood TOC you can see that. But Hogwood doesn't play every version, nor does anyone else. However, cumulatively one can assemble the different ones. And IIRC, there are a couple of them in the Solomons cycle that don't appear elsewhere. So there's that...

🤠

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on January 28, 2024, 12:03:39 PM

The 2 Solomons reissues in a cheap Sony series (26,48,49 and 39 45,59), were among the first handful of discs in my "rediscovery" of Haydn symphonies in the late 1990s, so they do have a rather special place in my collection and my love of this music ("re" because I had of course encountered a bunch of more or less well known symphonies as a beginner almost 10 years earlier but for several years Haydn was not a main interest).

If more of Solomons' series had been available then as midprice single or double discs, I'd certainly have bought some of them, but even the 2 or 3 earlier CBS were long gone. So I eventually got the Pinnock Sturm&Drang box when it came out (I had had one single disc of that series before) and was set for some years as it was a demanding task to get all/most of Haydn's symphonies in decent recordings at all.
Around 2009 I'd probably have grabbed the new box even at 70 EUR but nowadays, I don't really feel I need any more Haydn symphonies, and I am not interested enough in the early ones (ca. discs 14-18) anyway.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2024, 01:06:31 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on January 28, 2024, 12:03:39 PMThe 2 Solomons reissues in a cheap Sony series (26,48,49 and 39 45,59), were among the first handful of discs in my "rediscovery" of Haydn symphonies in the late 1990s, so they do have a rather special place in my collection and my love of this music ("re" because I had of course encountered a bunch of more or less well known symphonies as a beginner almost 10 years earlier but for several years Haydn was not a main interest).

If more of Solomons' series had been available then as midprice single or double discs, I'd certainly have bought some of them, but even the 2 or 3 earlier CBS were long gone. So I eventually got the Pinnock Sturm&Drang box when it came out (I had had one single disc of that series before) and was set for some years as it was a demanding task to get all/most of Haydn's symphonies in decent recordings at all.
Around 2009 I'd probably have grabbed the new box even at 70 EUR but nowadays, I don't really feel I need any more Haydn symphonies, and I am not interested enough in the early ones (ca. discs 14-18) anyway.

Well that's the reasonable view I would expect most will take. With most composers it is the view I would take too. With a very few others, Haydn included, I take a broader view towards acquisition. 😊 I can't listen to a large number of performers' voices with every composer, but there's always room for more Haydn (or Mozart). 🤠

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on February 08, 2024, 07:29:42 AM

I realized a few days ago that I had that Rosbaud SWF/SWR box with radio recordings of Haydn symphonies + concertos from the 1950s. I was mildly surprised that I owned this (so I am sure that I'll end up with the Solomons box as well, if it becomes cheap). I probably haven't listened to all of it yet. Now I listened to 90, 93 and 95. It's a mixed bag. The 90 has the worst sound and Rosbaud seems to use an edition without trumpets and drums and the horns are barely audible making this a mostly strings + woodwind piece which despite some nice woodwinds in the slow movement (that is also very slow) makes it a bit disappointing.
93 and 95 have better sound and I like them overall much better. Still dryish mono, so not the most colorful but surprising transparency for the sound and vintage, good tempi and shaping.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81+QoSJittL._SL1200_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on February 11, 2024, 03:01:52 AM

What did Solomons mean by 107, 108? 105 and 106 I would understand.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on February 11, 2024, 03:19:43 AM

107 and 108 are also known as "A" and "B". They are 2 early symphonies (one might not even be by Haydn). 105 is the Sinfonia concertante, 106 a single movement AKA Ouverture to I pescatrici.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on March 08, 2024, 12:29:21 PM

Got the Haydn2032 Vol. 20 newsletter email. The concerts are on 8 and 9 April in Vienna and Basel. Theme: "For English Gentlemen."

Kammerorchester Basel
Giovanni Antonini, Dirigent

Joseph Haydn:
Sinfonie Nr. 76 in Es-Dur
Sinfonie Nr. 77 in B-Dur
Pause
Johann Christian Bach:
Sinfonie in g-Moll op. 6 Nr. 6
Joseph Haydn:
Sinfonie Nr. 78 in c-Moll

And (if my very bad German isn't that bad), there's a preconcert interview between Antonini and Alfred Brendel?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: nico1616 on March 17, 2024, 10:08:23 AM

Quote from: Brian on March 08, 2024, 12:29:21 PMGot the Haydn2032 Vol. 20 newsletter email. The concerts are on 8 and 9 April in Vienna and Basel. Theme: "For English Gentlemen."

Kammerorchester Basel
Giovanni Antonini, Dirigent

Joseph Haydn:
Sinfonie Nr. 76 in Es-Dur
Sinfonie Nr. 77 in B-Dur
Pause
Johann Christian Bach:
Sinfonie in g-Moll op. 6 Nr. 6
Joseph Haydn:
Sinfonie Nr. 78 in c-Moll

Looks like a great program with some of the less recorded Haydn symphonies.
Volume 15 will be out on cd in April, so I guess this volume 20 will only appear in 2026...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: calyptorhynchus on March 26, 2024, 07:21:44 PM

I see that discs of Haydn symphonies by the Hanover Band have recently been reissued. What do we think of their performances?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on March 27, 2024, 09:23:36 AM

Keyboard Concertos in Hoboken XVIII - well this morning I'm trying to sort out my 3 recordings (pics below) of these real vs. bogus works; Entremont is on modern piano, Brautigam on fortepiano (McNulty reproduction), and Schornsheim on organ, harpsichord or fortepiano.

In the listing below, the works on these recordings are in bold and the performers in italics; all perform Nos. 2, 3, 4 & 11 - at the bottom, Nos. 3, 4, & 11 are claimed to be 'genuine'; I suspect at least several others are Haydn compositions but apparently a goodly numbered are attributed to others; and I'm sure some 'early' Haydn concertos are lost (or yet to be discovered).

Not sure about more recent research or revisions into this Hoboken category? Comments appreciated. Dave :)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61QlXFITy2L._SL1055_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61gmX5sJKJL.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71CGjhDZI2L._SL1200_.jpg)

QuoteFor Harpsichord, Organ or Piano - Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_concertos_by_Joseph_Haydn#For_harpsichord,_organ_or_piano)
Keyboard Concerto No. 1 in C, Hob. XVIII:1 (1756) - S
Keyboard Concerto No. 2 in D, Hob. XVIII:2 (1767) - B, E, S
Keyboard Concerto No. 3 in F, Hob. XVIII:3 (1765) - B, E, S
Keyboard Concerto No. 4 in G, Hob. XVIII:4 (1770) - B, E, S
Keyboard Concerto No. 5 in C, Hob. XVIII:5 (?authenticity, perhaps Wagenseil, 1763) - E, S
Keyboard and Violin Concerto No. 6 in F (Double Concerto), Hob. XVIII:6 (1766)
Keyboard Concerto No. 7 in F, Hob. XVIII:7 (attributed to Georg Christoph Wagenseil, 1766) - E
Keyboard Concerto No. 8 in C, Hob. XVIII:8 (perhaps attributed to Leopold Hofmann, 1766) - S
Keyboard Concerto No. 9 in G, Hob. XVIII:9 (uncertain authenticity, 1767) - E
Keyboard Concerto No. 10 in C, Hob. XVIII:10 (1771) - E, S
Keyboard Concerto No. 11 in D, Hob. XVIII:11 (1782) - B, E, S
Keyboard Concerto in E flat, Hob. XVIII:Es1 (doubtful authenticity)
Keyboard Concerto in F, Hob. XVIII:F1 (spurious authenticity, written by Georg Joseph Vogler)
Keyboard Concerto in F, Hob. XVIII:F2 (doubtful authenticity)
Keyboard Concerto in F, Hob. XVIII:F3 (doubtful authenticity, perhaps Johann Georg Lang)
Keyboard Concerto in G, Hob. XVIII:G1 (doubtful authenticity)
Concerto for Two Keyboards in G, Hob. XVIII:G2 (doubtful authenticity)

B = Brautigam; E = Entremont; S = Schornsheim

On the above list, where as noted Nos. 5, 7, 8, 9 are doubtful, only Nos. 3, 4, and 11 are considered confirmed as genuine.

Two works often identified and even published as piano concertos by Haydn, and commonly taught to younger piano students, are actually Divertimenti, grouped in Hob. XIV. Specifically, they are Hob. XIV:3 (the "Little Concerto" in C major), and Hob. XIV:4 (another "concerto" in C major). However, another work of similar technical difficulty that is also identified and published as a concerto is the Concerto in F, Hob. XVIII:F1.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on March 27, 2024, 10:11:26 AM

Quote from: calyptorhynchus on March 26, 2024, 07:21:44 PMI see that discs of Haydn symphonies by the Hanover Band have recently been reissued. What do we think of their performances?

AFAIK all of the incomplete Goodman/Hanover Haydn on Hyperion had been available in their "Helios" series for quite a while. I have a handful of discs from them and the most contentious element is probably the often rather prominent harpsichord. If one is not bothered by this they are quite good. Warmer sound (and I think slightly bigger band) than Hogwood (or Solomons). Another caveat is that they (I think) omit timpani in some works were the parts are dubious.

The energy level varies, e.g. 82 is grand and boisterous but the following 83 and 84 seem rather small scale as if the energy had been lost with the trumpets and drums (that are correctly lacking in these 2).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 01, 2024, 10:16:06 AM

Quote from: Gurn Blanston on January 28, 2024, 07:51:35 AMLooking at this, it appears to contain even more than the LP transfers I have, which I believe total 12. Clearly I have to get this one myself. Can't wait!

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81i9PRbSv4L._SL1500_.jpg)

Now the above piques my interest! 8) Last few days, I've been listening to some Papa Joe Symphonies in my collection, yesterday to Kuijken in Nos. 82-92 (shown below; reviews attached) - today spending the morning w/ the Londons, again Kuijken vs. Harnoncourt (reviews also) - been happy with these performances for a while (and after a lot of culling - there are SO many London recordings!)

Now my 'main' Haydn boxes are Antonini (10 discs) & Fischer (33 discs of all!) - love the Antonini, but not as enthralled with Fischer. If I purchased the Solomons collection, I have all but a couple dozen (i.e. if I dump the Fischer box) - but just checked and seems to be 70 bucks or Euros at the moment - I assume the next presumably 10-disc Antonini box will be Vols. 11-20, but just a guess, anyway will not be a release soon to be seen - just some thoughts and enjoying the Londons w/ Kuijken and Harnoncourt! Dave :D

QuoteAntonini - Il Giardino/Basel (box of first 10 volumes)
01, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 12, 15, 19, 22, 26, 28, 35, 39, 42, 43, 45, 46, 47, 49, 60, 63, 64, 65, 67, 70, 79, 80, 81

V.11 - 2, 24, 82, 87; V.12 - 61, 66, 69; V.13 - 31, 48, 59; V.14 - 33, 53, 54 - Newest releases!

Solomon's - L'Estro Armonico
1$, 2, 3$, 4$, 5, 6$, 10, 11, 15, 17, 18, 19$, 20, 26$, 27, 32, 33, 35$, 37, 38, 39$, 41, 42$, 43$, 44, 45$, 46$, 47$, 48, 49$, 50, 51, 52, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60$, 63$, 64$, 65$, 66, 67$, 68, 69, 107, 108 - $ Solomon repeated by Antonini

Missing from Antonini (10 Box Set) & Solomons: 13, 14, 16, 21, 23, 24, 25, 29, 30, 31, 34, 36, 40, 53, 61, 62, 71-78, 82-90, 91-106 - own Nos. 82-104 (Kuijken/Harnoncourt)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81yPCi2cDWL._SL1282_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/A1N+hfCcbBL._SL1500_.jpg)

(https://i.maniadb.com/images/album/273/273951_1_f.jpg) (https://jacket.blob.core.windows.net/export/bvcd-38136.jpg)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71cjnQt6IJL._SL1010_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71zQXzxD0yL._SL1450_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 01, 2024, 11:06:45 AM

As I wrote elsewhere I gave in and got the Solomons box for 60 EUR. Curiosity and the fear to miss out (because nowadays box vanish quickly so it's a gamble to hope for a lower price) won out in the end.

The obvious problem is that the gaps here make it difficult for those wanting to minimize duplication. I only dipped into the box (it only arrived saturday evening). It confirms what I knew from the 11 symphonies (of 49) I had had before that it is very good and a brief characterization for me is "similar to Hogwood but better". It's a pity that this truly pioneering HIP set (began in 1980) was abolished after only about 6 years. Similar to Hogwood because it uses small forces and (rather discrete) harpsichord only in the earlier pieces. There is even some overlap in the players but without having done A-B I found Solomons usually more spirited and intense.

It must also be admitted that the core of the Solomons is the ca. 20 symphonies ca. 1767-72 usually called "Sturm and Drang" and there are some very good recordings of them, e.g. Pinnock/Archiv. I have not heard them yet but Solomons might be further ahead of the competition in the 19 very early symphonies and/or in the 50s/60s pieces that are usually not included in Sturm&Drang (but are here).

Fischer is a mixed bag, as to be expected by a project drawn out over 15 years or so but as I probably wrote before, it has some high points, especially in regions not well covered by others, e.g. ca. 61-81. I think I listed the recording dates for Fischer further above, the last few discs recorded are really very good and an original take with some HIP influences.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 01, 2024, 01:57:07 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on April 01, 2024, 11:06:45 AMI have not heard them yet but Solomons might be further ahead of the competition in the 19 very early symphonies and/or in the 50s/60s pieces that are usually not included in Sturm&Drang (but are here).

But what about Harnoncourt?
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kb-U9XMWsCY/WewRuf7-Y2I/AAAAAAAALXI/Dtf6wBHLSA0pTfjrFRwLggA1TdiJuVT7wCLcBGAs/s400/front.jpg)

For complete sets I don't think even Dorati is consistent over the whole thing let alone Fischer (but IMO I think both are good enough), the closest I've seen is Project 2032 so far (Antonini).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 01, 2024, 02:04:19 PM

@SonicMan46 I didn't know about that cheap bargain box set of v 1-10... ORDERED! I have to admit I just don't like that Harnoncourt/RCO Londons. They just sound too big and boring.

Dave, did you also have this set?
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcT938ILvKJ-nZw1Chovj2xjw68HX-8n2sk42iXq-rLKVYavlqopsK5trfHYdeB15WZ0MrO86y8Sk0YwfCnCSsmxBmuXRtq6Rj1EtoSH3Io&usqp=CAE)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 01, 2024, 02:21:50 PM

Quote from: DavidW on April 01, 2024, 02:04:19 PM@SonicMan46 I didn't know about that cheap bargain box set of v 1-10... ORDERED! I have to admit I just don't like that Harnoncourt/RCO Londons. They just sound too big and boring.

Dave, did you also have this set?
(https://encrypted-tbn3.gstatic.com/shopping?q=tbn:ANd9GcT938ILvKJ-nZw1Chovj2xjw68HX-8n2sk42iXq-rLKVYavlqopsK5trfHYdeB15WZ0MrO86y8Sk0YwfCnCSsmxBmuXRtq6Rj1EtoSH3Io&usqp=CAE)

Hi Dave - well, still listening to Kuijken & Harnoncourt in the Londons and enjoying. As to the PI set above, I was aware of it but never owned the box. Dave

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 02, 2024, 12:26:14 AM

Quote from: DavidW on April 01, 2024, 01:57:07 PMBut what about Harnoncourt?
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kb-U9XMWsCY/WewRuf7-Y2I/AAAAAAAALXI/Dtf6wBHLSA0pTfjrFRwLggA1TdiJuVT7wCLcBGAs/s400/front.jpg)

Very little overlap with Solomons, only 45, 59, 60 and 69. Harnoncourt is quite different; probably one of the largest ensembles, some comparably slowish tempi, so certainly worth trying (although I wonder how he got to the selection of the few "middle" symphonies he recorded) but covering so few of the pieces that he's not really an option for getting anywhere close to complete.

QuoteFor complete sets I don't think even Dorati is consistent over the whole thing let alone Fischer (but IMO I think both are good enough), the closest I've seen is Project 2032 so far (Antonini).

I didn't know that they had packed up a bunch of them at budget price. When the first volumes came out I tried some tracks and found them hyperactive, also didn't like the haphazard "concept album" and of course they were expensive.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 02, 2024, 01:17:18 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on April 01, 2024, 11:06:45 AMAs I wrote elsewhere I gave in and got the Solomons box for 60 EUR. Curiosity and the fear to miss out (because nowadays box vanish quickly so it's a gamble to hope for a lower price) won out in the end.

The obvious problem is that the gaps here make it difficult for those wanting to minimize duplication. I only dipped into the box (it only arrived saturday evening). It confirms what I knew from the 11 symphonies (of 49) I had had before that it is very good and a brief characterization for me is "similar to Hogwood but better". It's a pity that this truly pioneering HIP set (began in 1980) was abolished after only about 6 years. Similar to Hogwood because it uses small forces and (rather discrete) harpsichord only in the earlier pieces. There is even some overlap in the players but without having done A-B I found Solomons usually more spirited and intense.

It must also be admitted that the core of the Solomons is the ca. 20 symphonies ca. 1767-72 usually called "Sturm and Drang" and there are some very good recordings of them, e.g. Pinnock/Archiv. I have not heard them yet but Solomons might be further ahead of the competition in the 19 very early symphonies and/or in the 50s/60s pieces that are usually not included in Sturm&Drang (but are here).

Thanks for the details. I'll get it.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 02, 2024, 02:01:02 AM

FWIW, the Solomons box covers the content of Hogwoods Vol. 1+2 (+16 but no 25 and 36) and Vol. 5,6,7,8,9 (but 63 instead of 53 and no alternative version/movements of e.g. 54).
So whoever thought of filling gaps by getting Hogwood's old 3-disc-boxes separately might have a better deal with Solomons. Admittedly, the extensive notes are missing from the latter.

It also shows how Hogwoods series almost 10 years later was set up in a very similar fashion to the older project, despite the new CD format and some minor re-shuffling in the tentative chronological order (or this might have been for the more restrictive playing times of LPs).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 02, 2024, 02:37:44 AM

Quote from: DavidW on April 01, 2024, 01:57:07 PMBut what about Harnoncourt?
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-kb-U9XMWsCY/WewRuf7-Y2I/AAAAAAAALXI/Dtf6wBHLSA0pTfjrFRwLggA1TdiJuVT7wCLcBGAs/s400/front.jpg)

Besides that, there is also this:

(https://img.cdandlp.com/2014/05/imgL/116930059.jpg) (https://img.cdandlp.com/2014/05/imgL/116930059-2.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 02, 2024, 06:33:04 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 02, 2024, 02:37:44 AMBesides that, there is also this:

(https://img.cdandlp.com/2014/05/imgL/116930059.jpg) (https://img.cdandlp.com/2014/05/imgL/116930059-2.jpg) (https://i.maniadb.com/images/album/273/273951_1_f.jpg)

Assume the same as the box (inserted above) that I showed on the previous page? Dave

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 02, 2024, 06:38:09 AM

Quote from: SonicMan46 on April 02, 2024, 06:33:04 AMAssume the same as the box (inserted above) that I showed on the previous page? Dave

Most probably.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on April 02, 2024, 07:02:40 AM

Quote from: DavidW on April 01, 2024, 02:04:19 PMI have to admit I just don't like that Harnoncourt/RCO Londons. They just sound too big and boring.

*grabs bazooka*

I'll probably stream some of Solomons this afternoon. I like a fairly wide range of Haydn symphony interpretations, as long as the minuets aren't ploddingly slow and the harpsichord is absent or barely noticeable. Having the Decca HIP box (where Solomons mainly competes with Bruggen) and Bruno Weil box, I probably don't need the Solomons...but it can't hurt to try, right? :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 02, 2024, 07:04:13 AM

Quote from: Brian on April 02, 2024, 07:02:40 AM*grabs bazooka*

I'll probably stream some of Solomons this afternoon. I like a fairly wide range of Haydn symphony interpretations, as long as the minuets aren't ploddingly slow and the harpsichord is absent or barely noticeable. Having the Decca HIP box (where Solomons mainly competes with Bruggen) and Bruno Weil box, I probably don't need the Solomons...but it can't hurt to try, right? :)

Can one have too much Haydn?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 02, 2024, 07:54:19 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on April 02, 2024, 12:26:14 AMVery little overlap with Solomons, only 45, 59, 60 and 69.

Oh I didn't realize that the Solomons were incomplete. I need to pay more attention!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 02, 2024, 07:58:26 AM

I know that Sarge always used to rave about Fey's set, and I know that someone had to take over for him... but someone did... was the cycle ever finished?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on April 02, 2024, 08:13:28 AM

Quote from: DavidW on April 02, 2024, 07:58:26 AMI know that Sarge always used to rave about Fey's set, and I know that someone had to take over for him... but someone did... was the cycle ever finished?

I think they just very recently did. The unfortunately named Johannes Klumpp.

(takes short break before hitting "Post")

Yes, the final volume was released in February (https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9560589--haydn-symphonies-vol-28-31), and that listing says there will be a big box sometime later in the year.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 02, 2024, 08:19:05 AM

Quote from: Brian on April 02, 2024, 08:13:28 AMI think they just very recently did. The unfortunately named Johannes Klumpp.

(takes short break before hitting "Post")

Yes, the final volume was released in February (https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9560589--haydn-symphonies-vol-28-31), and that listing says there will be a big box sometime later in the year.

Did Klumpp stick to the landing? Was he a worthy successor?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 02, 2024, 08:46:47 AM

Quote from: DavidW on April 02, 2024, 07:54:19 AMOh I didn't realize that the Solomons were incomplete. I need to pay more attention!

Dave - back on the previous page I posted the number contents of the Antonini and Solomons boxes, along w/ what's missing with both combined - below. Dave

QuoteAntonini - Il Giardino/Basel (box of first 10 volumes)
01, 3, 4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 12, 15, 19, 22, 26, 28, 35, 39, 42, 43, 45, 46, 47, 49, 60, 63, 64, 65, 67, 70, 79, 80, 81

V.11 - 2, 24, 82, 87; V.12 - 61, 66, 69; V.13 - 31, 48, 59; V.14 - 33, 53, 54 - Newest releases!

Solomon's - L'Estro Armonico
1$, 2, 3$, 4$, 5, 6$, 10, 11, 15, 17, 18, 19$, 20, 26$, 27, 32, 33, 35$, 37, 38, 39$, 41, 42$, 43$, 44, 45$, 46$, 47$, 48, 49$, 50, 51, 52, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60$, 63$, 64$, 65$, 66, 67$, 68, 69, 107, 108 - $ Solomon repeated by Antonini

Missing from Antonini (10 Box Set) & Solomons: 13, 14, 16, 21, 23, 24, 25, 29, 30, 31, 34, 36, 40, 53, 61, 62, 71-78, 82-90, 91-106 - own Nos. 82-104 (Kuijken/Harnoncourt)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 02, 2024, 10:06:22 AM

Trumpet Concerto - a plethora in my collection - cull, add, or both? :o ;D

Mark Bennett & Reinhold Friedrich perform on reproduction keyed trumpets (the instrument Haydn and Hummel knew); Marsalis was an early purchase on release - the lower three all on modern valved trumpets - now I've listen to Alison Balsom on Spotify and could be a replacement, BUT so many other options on perusing Amazon today. Dave

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/91XM-C1cJHL._SL1411_.jpg) (https://cdn.naxos.com/sharedfiles/images/cds/hires/C10598.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51esXIf9pxL.jpg)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71X3EKfoBBL._SL1200_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/611RK8xBZ7L._SL1200_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61B5cxf7W5L._SL1200_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 02, 2024, 10:30:20 AM

Quote from: Brian on April 02, 2024, 07:02:40 AM*grabs bazooka*

I don't think that Harnoncourt's London set with the Concertgebouw is boring, it's quite interesting. But it obviously has far more competition than e.g. #30 or 69 and the mix of Harnoncourt's mannerisms with the standard symphonic sound of the Concertgebouw can be a bit strange.
FWIW, I think the most remarkable is the Paris set with the Concentus but this also rather mannered, thus paradoxically I find the most easy to recommmend the bunch of earlier Teldec discs with the Concentus (6-8, 30, 31, 45....)

QuoteI'll probably stream some of Solomons this afternoon. I like a fairly wide range of Haydn symphony interpretations, as long as the minuets aren't ploddingly slow and the harpsichord is absent or barely noticeable. Having the Decca HIP box (where Solomons mainly competes with Bruggen) and Bruno Weil box, I probably don't need the Solomons...but it can't hurt to try, right? :)

Solomons is probably faster than Brüggen, because he's usually on the fast side, except in the odd minuet, whereas Brüggen is all over the place. Some movements still get a bit long because of all repeats played (a feature shared with Hogwood).
Pinnock has the adavantage of slightly better sound, I think, and with his larger ensemble he sounds more "symphonic". Solomons is more "edgy" and has of course more than twice as many symphonies included as the "Sturm & Drang" sets.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 02, 2024, 01:49:10 PM

Quote from: Florestan on April 02, 2024, 07:04:13 AMCan one have too much Haydn?

There is the amount of Haydn, and then there's the number of recordings of the same Haydn...

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 03, 2024, 03:04:26 AM

Quote from: Madiel on April 02, 2024, 01:49:10 PMThere is the amount of Haydn, and then there's the number of recordings of the same Haydn...

Exactly. When one has finished listening to, say, the complete Fischer cycle, if one wants to listen to a symphony again, and one would surely want that sooner or later, it's so nice to have Hogwood, Bruggen, Solomons, Dorati, Fey, Kuijken etc as well and listen to that symphony in a different version. Especially when one doesn't do any A/B but simply enjoys the music and one's favorite performance is always the one they are currently listening to. :D (Valid also for SQs, piano trios, piano sonatas, the concertos etc.)

Listened to Symphony No. 1 from the Solomons set and I was delighted by what I heard. Looks like I will greatly enjoy the whole thing.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 03, 2024, 04:02:34 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 03, 2024, 03:04:26 AMExactly. When one has finished listening to, say, the complete Fischer cycle, if one wants to listen to a symphony again, and one would surely want that sooner or later, it's so nice to have Hogwood, Bruggen, Solomons, Dorati, Fey, Kuijken etc as well and listen to that symphony in a different version. Especially when one doesn't do any A/B but simply enjoys the music and one's favorite performance is always the one they are currently listening to. :D (Valid also for SQs, piano trios, piano sonatas, the concertos etc.)

Listened to Symphony No. 1 from the Solomons set and I was delighted by what I heard. Looks like I will greatly enjoy the whole thing.

There is never a thing as too much Haydn!! It could be worse, I have five box sets of Bach cantatas, and I used to own three more! :o

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 03, 2024, 04:45:55 AM

I thought there were "only" 5 complete Bach cantata sets, are there even more now?

Anyway, I am not lightly buying more recordings of everything nowadays; I had almost decided against the Solomons, see above.
But with a few exceptions (Paris, where I got rid of 3 decent sets and still have around 7) I don't have an absurd number of Haydn symphonies, especially not in the very early (admittedly I don't care so much about them) and the 60s numbers covered by Solomons. I'll probably also get rid of one or two of the bulky Hogwood boxes overlapping so might even save some space in the end.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 03, 2024, 05:35:02 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 03, 2024, 03:04:26 AMif one wants to listen to a symphony again, and one would surely want that sooner or later

Well yes. But then one might also want to listen to a string quartet, or a piano trio, or a mass, or a keyboard sonata, or a concerto, maybe even an opera.

I haven't yet finished getting all the Haydn compositions that I want in my collection (despite the spurt I did on quartets to have all of them except op.42, there are several other genres I'm lacking), and while that's the case I honestly don't have that much interest in finding additional recordings of pieces I already have. Unless and until I decide there's something genuinely deficient in the recordings I have.

By the time I get around to listening to a symphony again, it's frankly unlikely that I'll be bored with the recording that I chose with reasonable care the first time, because for me it'll probably be YEARS since I last heard it. But even if I just focused on symphonies (and it's one of my many to-do lists to do them again), it would not surprise me if it took me over a year to cycle through.

It's honestly slightly funny to me sometimes when GMG conversations get into how many sets of better-known works one should have, because then I ask about some other corner of the same composer's work and get... crickets chirping. I'm not talking about obscure composers here. It's possible to raise certain compositions by Beethoven or Brahms.

I've got nothing against having multiple sets of Haydn symphonies. The music is rich enough for it. But yeah, I'll pass on that until I've got the keyboard sonatas and at least tried some more concertos, some divertimenti, and a dash of opera.

Heck, I really should find out what a baryton sounds like.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 03, 2024, 05:41:25 AM

For the record, I found that Hogwood's set and Fischer's 70-81 volume (considered one of his best) did a nice job of covering the symphonies that aren't done over and over. And Kuijken covered the gap between 'Paris' and 'London' for me.

PS The 'London' symphonies really should be split in half, into London 1 and London 2. They're two distinct sets of six. That's always bugged me a little since I realised.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 03, 2024, 06:28:18 AM

Quote from: Jo498 on April 03, 2024, 04:45:55 AMI thought there were "only" 5 complete Bach cantata sets, are there even more now?

I didn't see they were complete! I just said they were box sets.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 03, 2024, 06:36:36 AM

Quote from: Madiel on April 03, 2024, 05:41:25 AMPS The 'London' symphonies really should be split in half, into London 1 and London 2. They're two distinct sets of six. That's always bugged me a little since I realised.

Well the Philips twofers do that. I think that was Davis or Bruggen or both.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 03, 2024, 06:49:20 AM

Quote from: Madiel on April 03, 2024, 05:35:02 AMWell yes. But then one might also want to listen to a string quartet, or a piano trio, or a mass, or a keyboard sonata, or a concerto, maybe even an opera.

I said that myself. ;)

Quote from: Florestan on April 03, 2024, 03:04:26 AM(Valid also for SQs, piano trios, piano sonatas, the concertos etc.)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: SonicMan46 on April 03, 2024, 08:36:56 AM

Haydn - Violin Works in my collection for today's listening - Violin Concertos (see first quote) - initially 9 works contributed to him but only 4 proven genuine w/ one lost - so the two recordings I own have just 3 concertos (1,3,4) although Seiler ends with a work attributed to Solomon (same guy that brought Haydn to England x 2); both period instrument performances.

The Keyboard Duos on period instruments (sound is a little bright but acceptable to my ears) - the first 3 are listed as such in the Hoboken catalog (see second quote); the last two are from the 'Piano Trio' section (XV), but apparently the cello could be dropped leaving a keyboard duet w/ violin - how common was this done back then or now?

Finally, the String Duos for violin and viola (VI section) wonderfully done by Anton Steck and Christian Goosses - again see attachment if interested for reviews of all discs. Dave

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/411DR7qo8vL.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81IAlOPsadL._SL1419_.jpg)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81w8Ar1PijL._SL1400_.jpg) (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51aWSHHN37L.jpg)

QuoteConcertos Violin (Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_concertos_by_Joseph_Haydn))
Violin Concerto No. 1 in C major, Hob. VIIa:1 (ca. 1765)
Violin Concerto No. 2 in D major, Hob. VIIa:2 (1765, lost)[1]
Violin Concerto No. 3 in A major, Hob. VIIa:3 "Melker Konzert" (ca. 1770)
Violin Concerto No. 4 in G major, Hob. VIIa:4 (1769)
Other Concertos (Hob. VIIa:D1/G1/A1/B1/B2) are not authentic, i.e. are not by Joseph Haydn.
- D1 - Concerto in D major for violin and orchestra (work by Carl Stamitz?)
- G1 - Concerto in G major for violin and strings (work by Michael Haydn?) (1762)
- A1 - Concerto in A major for violin and ... (work by Giovanni Mane Giornovichi?)
- B1 - Concerto in B flat major for violin and strings (by Michael Haydn) (1760)
- B2 - Concerto in B flat major for violin and strings (by Christian Cannabich) (1767)

QuoteKeyboard Duos (Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Joseph_Haydn#Keyboard_for_4_hands))
XVa:1 Sonata for keyboard and obbligato violin B♭ major
XVa:2 Sonata for keyboard and obbligato violin D major
XVa:3 Sonata for keyboard and obbligato violin C major
XV:31 Piano Trio No. 41 E♭ minor 1795 violin, cello, keyboard
XV:32 Piano Trio No. 31 G major 1793–94 violin, cello, keyboard

QuoteVarious Duos (Source (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_compositions_by_Joseph_Haydn#Keyboard_for_4_hands))
VI:1   String Duo   F major   c. 1777   violin, viola
VI:2   String Duo   A major   c. 1777   violin, viola
VI:3   String Duo   B♭ major   c. 1777   violin, viola
VI:4   String Duo   D major   c. 1777   violin, viola
VI:5   String Duo   E♭ major   c. 1777   violin, viola
VI:6   String Duo   C major   c. 1777   violin, viola

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 03, 2024, 10:02:05 AM

Quote from: Madiel on April 03, 2024, 05:41:25 AMPS The 'London' symphonies really should be split in half, into London 1 and London 2. They're two distinct sets of six. That's always bugged me a little since I realised.

To be even more pedantic, the Sinfonia concertante No. 105 could/should be grouped together with "London 1" but is frequently used as a filler for 89-92 or a some concerti.
I'd rather encourage coupling with one of the early symphonies with concertante elements such as 13 or 31 to make these earlier ones better known.

I think I have recordings of all Haydn pieces I am interested in; actually of quite a few I am not that much interested in ;) I have maybe 3 operas, I have even seen one on stage but am not sufficiently interested to get more. I don't much care for the concertos, not even the ones for cello or trumpet, but I nevertheless have about 3 recordings of the better known ones.

Although it has changed in the last decades, the Haydn discography is (with a few exceptions like the Paris/London symphonies, op.76+77 and a few more quartets, Creation and Seasons...) still not close in quality to e.g. Mozart's.
Sure, today one does not have to go out of one's way to find a recording of a symphony like #70 or 75 at all. But I have 3 of e.g. 75 and I don't think any of them is as good as an almost randomly picked 85 or 95 would be. Therefore it's justifiable for me to have several recordings. I usually try to have at least one on modern instruments and one HIP and I don't mind more for pieces I like a lot and it's unavoidable anyway because of couplings and boxes.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 04, 2024, 09:47:58 AM

So I looked a bit more closely how many Haydn symphonies I have and admittedly, it borders on the excessive...
But this is mostly due to boxes and couplings (that I obviously cannot break up) and affects almost only late symphonies some of which reach a dozen of recordings (95, 96, 104).
The symphonies in the Solomons box are typically the 4th or 5th (most of the so-called Sturm & Drang) but sometimes only the 2nd in addition to Fischer's complete box (many of the early "Morzin" symphonies).

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on April 04, 2024, 06:38:58 PM

Quote from: Jo498 on April 04, 2024, 09:47:58 AMSo I looked a bit more closely how many Haydn symphonies I have and admittedly, it borders on the excessive...
But this is mostly due to boxes and couplings (that I obviously cannot break up) and affects almost only late symphonies some of which reach a dozen of recordings (95, 96, 104).
The symphonies in the Solomons box are typically the 4th or 5th (most of the so-called Sturm & Drang) but sometimes only the 2nd in addition to Fischer's complete box (many of the early "Morzin" symphonies).

If it makes you feel better, I have at least 50 recordings of Mahler 2 and Mahler 9. And about 40 sets of Beethoven symphonies.
I stopped counting them years ago.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on April 04, 2024, 06:54:42 PM

Quote from: JBS on April 04, 2024, 06:38:58 PMIf it makes you feel better, I have at least 50 recordings of Mahler 2 and Mahler 9. And about 40 sets of Beethoven symphonies.
I stopped counting them years ago.

Sounds like you owe us some Todd-style tiered rankings ;) ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on April 04, 2024, 07:03:58 PM

Quote from: Brian on April 04, 2024, 06:54:42 PMSounds like you owe us some Todd-style tiered rankings ;) ;D

Oh, there's plenty of recordings I don't have.
And M2 has a special place for me, there's only a couple of recordings of it I don't like.
And both of them happen to be conducted by Abbado (the Vienna Phil. and Lucerne Festival recordings)--although his middle one, with the CSO, is very good.
I also wasn't keen on Norrington, although I like his other Mahler recordings.
Other than that they're all good.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 04, 2024, 10:47:03 PM

I believe the most recordings I have of any work is 4.

Well, unless you count all the recordings of Tori Amos concerts, both official and audience, where I have little idea how many times any given song might turn up (that's half the joy).

But classical, I believe it's 4.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on April 04, 2024, 10:54:12 PM

Quote from: Madiel on April 04, 2024, 10:47:03 PMI believe the most recordings I have of any work is 4.

Well, unless you count all the recordings of Tori Amos concerts, both official and audience, where I have little idea how many times any given song might turn up (that's half the joy).

But classical, I believe it's 4.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 04, 2024, 11:47:30 PM

Quote from: JBS on April 04, 2024, 06:38:58 PMIf it makes you feel better, I have at least 50 recordings of Mahler 2 and Mahler 9. And about 40 sets of Beethoven symphonies.
I stopped counting them years ago.

I have some/most Beethoven symphonies in the low double digits (~20).
But I was a bit surprised that there was so much Haydn. Technically, I only ever bought 3 sets of the "London" symphonies (Harnoncourt, Brüggen, Herbig), but then I have boxes containing all or several of them with Fischer, Dorati, Bernstein, Scherchen, Szell, Rosbaud, plus a bunch of single discs, some of which I also keep for sentimental value. E.g. 100+103 with Tate is not that good but it was my first CD with Haydn symphonies, a gift from my Dad when I was 17 or so.

But as said, for lesser known symphonies it's more like 2-4, which I don't find unreasonable. It would be almost unavoidable due to couplings anyway.

I remember that when I bought Mozart's concerto K 482 (Schiff/Vegh) in 1996 I was mildly annoyed that it was coupled with the A major K 488 of which I had already 2 recordings, I think. But it was a recommended disc and fairly cheap in a used store, so I bought it anyway.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 05, 2024, 12:42:57 AM

For Haydn symphonies sets I have the big ones with Fischer, Hogwood, Fey, Marriner, Antonini, Bruggen, Kuijken, Goodman, Pinnock, Harnoncourt and now Solomons. Also, small ones with Bernstein, Ansermet, Vegh, Scherchen.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 05, 2024, 08:49:17 AM

Quote from: JBS on April 04, 2024, 06:38:58 PMIf it makes you feel better, I have at least 50 recordings of Mahler 2 and Mahler 9. And about 40 sets of Beethoven symphonies.
I stopped counting them years ago.

I've heard a lot of Mahler recordings but I don't think that much! Mahler 9 is the one I obsess over the most.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 05, 2024, 08:51:00 AM

Quote from: JBS on April 04, 2024, 07:03:58 PMOh, there's plenty of recordings I don't have.
And M2 has a special place for me, there's only a couple of recordings of it I don't like.
And both of them happen to be conducted by Abbado (the Vienna Phil. and Lucerne Festival recordings)--although his middle one, with the CSO, is very good.
I also wasn't keen on Norrington, although I like his other Mahler recordings.
Other than that they're all good.

That also means you don't have an unbridled rage for Kaplan like some do, or Zander like Hurwitz does (just because he includes informative interviews... seriously some times DH is unhinged...)

Do you post on the Mahler board as well as here?

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 05, 2024, 08:55:29 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 05, 2024, 12:42:57 AMFor Haydn symphonies sets I have the big ones with Fischer, Hogwood, Fey, Marriner, Antonini, Bruggen, Kuijken, Goodman, Pinnock, Harnoncourt and now Solomons. Also, small ones with Bernstein, Ansermet, Vegh, Scherchen.

For me Fischer, Dorati, Hogwood, Russell-Davies, Antonini, Bruggen, Kuijken, Pinnock, Bernstein, Shelley, Harnoncourt, Davis, Muller-Bruhl, and Ward. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 05, 2024, 08:59:25 AM

Quote from: DavidW on April 05, 2024, 08:55:29 AMFor me Fischer, Dorati, Hogwood, Russell-Davies, Antonini, Bruggen, Kuijken, Pinnock, Bernstein, Shelley, Harnoncourt, Davis, Muller-Bruhl, and Ward. 8)

Cool. The more, the merrier. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on April 05, 2024, 09:00:09 AM

Wow! I don't have any complete Haydn symphony sets.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 05, 2024, 09:04:10 AM

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on April 05, 2024, 09:00:09 AMWow! I don't have any complete Haydn symphony sets.

Well I encourage you to dip your toes! I think Haydn's symphonies are all great. But if it is overwhelming (though I bet you have heard the big ones, but just in case) I suggest

Pinnock for the Storm and Stress
Bernstein for the Paris
Shelley for the Londons

But the Fischer set is pretty good and only costs like $80. Of course with streaming you can just go whole hog without emptying your wallet.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 05, 2024, 09:41:43 AM

Quote from: DavidW on April 05, 2024, 09:04:10 AMWell I encourage you to dip your toes! I think Haydn's symphonies are all great. But if it is overwhelming (though I bet you have heard the big ones, but just in case) I suggest

Pinnock for the Storm and Stress
Bernstein for the Paris
Shelley for the Londons

But the Fischer set is pretty good and only costs like $80. Of course with streaming you can just go whole hog without emptying your wallet.

No idea if it's still available, but I fetched in the DRD set for a song ($25) back when

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on April 05, 2024, 09:44:10 AM

Hmmm, while we're all comparing, I have:

Complete - Decca HIP (Bruggen, Hogwood, Dantone), Russell Davies, Fischer (MP3, bought for $10)

Partial - Weil/Tafelmusik, Harnoncourt, Szell, Bernstein, Marriner, Orpheus CO

Guess I need to do some shopping and catch up ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on April 05, 2024, 09:49:33 AM

Quote from: DavidW on April 05, 2024, 09:04:10 AMWell I encourage you to dip your toes! I think Haydn's symphonies are all great. But if it is overwhelming (though I bet you have heard the big ones, but just in case) I suggest

Pinnock for the Storm and Stress
Bernstein for the Paris
Shelley for the Londons

But the Fischer set is pretty good and only costs like $80. Of course with streaming you can just go whole hog without emptying your wallet.

I have some of them as parts of other sets (and probably some on LP too). For example, I have the Hen, the Clock...and I forget which other one with Karajan. There are also some as part of that Bernstein Symphony Edition (Paris and London).

The name Shelley isn't ringing a bell with me. :(

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 05, 2024, 09:53:51 AM

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on April 05, 2024, 09:49:33 AMThe name Shelley isn't ringing a bell with me. :(

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Shelley

I didn't know he recorded any Haydn, though.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 05, 2024, 09:57:33 AM

Quote from: Pohjolas Daughter on April 05, 2024, 09:49:33 AMThe name Shelley isn't ringing a bell with me. :(

I love it, and it is a real sleeper:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41SyE5LBIgL._UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Florestan on April 05, 2024, 10:00:59 AM

Quote from: DavidW on April 05, 2024, 09:57:33 AMI love it, and it is a real sleeper:

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41SyE5LBIgL._UF1000,1000_QL80_.jpg)

Drat! I need this like I need a hole in my head --- nevertheless, I set it in seek-and-capture mode. ;D

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on April 05, 2024, 10:07:21 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 05, 2024, 10:00:59 AMDrat! I need this like I need a hole in my head --- nevertheless, I set it in seek-and-capture mode. ;D

:laugh: :)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 05, 2024, 10:16:55 AM

Quote from: Florestan on April 05, 2024, 10:00:59 AMDrat! I need this like I need a hole in my head --- nevertheless, I set it in seek-and-capture mode. ;D

Yeah I picked it up because I didn't liked the Londons in the Fischer set, so I took it as kind of a replacement.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Pohjolas Daughter on April 05, 2024, 10:18:24 AM

Poked around a bit more whilst *upstairs: 83 with Barbirolli and I want to say 92 with R. Jacobs.

I didn't know that H. Shelley conducted; I had thought of him "just" as a pianist.
*grabbing some Martinu for later.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on April 05, 2024, 11:24:32 AM

Quote from: DavidW on April 05, 2024, 08:51:00 AMThat also means you don't have an unbridled rage for Kaplan like some do, or Zander like Hurwitz does (just because he includes informative interviews... seriously some times DH is unhinged...)

Do you post on the Mahler board as well as here?

I do like Kaplan.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: JBS on April 05, 2024, 11:33:20 AM

Back on the main topic--I have Fischer and DRD. Don't have Dorati, Marzendorfer, or the Naxos compilation.
I have the Decca HIP in the form of its parent sets, Bruggen and Hogwood, plus the filler from Dantone.
Of all the other sets mentioned, I think I have all of them except Pinnock and Fey. (I have some individual CDs of the latter.) The Solomons set is en route to me from Japan.
Among MI London sets my favorite has always been Solti.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 05, 2024, 12:08:04 PM

Russell Davies has long been oop. jpc has the Fischer right now for 40 EUR or so but it might not worth ordering from outside EU.
Of course (often free) streaming completely changes the situation because one can always close gaps easily.
This was very different when I got interested more seriously in Haydn 25 years ago. After buying single discs my first medium sized box was the "Sturm & Drang" with Pinnock (maybe still the easiest recommendation for these works as it has great sound, very good, "central" interpretations, i.e. a somewhat larger and less "historical" sounding ensemble than Hogwood and Solomons and usually not the repeats of development and recap that make some pieces a bit lengthy).
For a while I thought I could close gaps with Naxos, Goodman etc. but when the Fischer box appeared at Brilliant's price tag (I think it was also about 40 EUR or even less around 2002?) I got it and didn't regret it although the late symphonies are not competitive and the rest is also sometimes a mixed bag. But overall it's great value and I am more often than not positively surprised when I listen to a disc from that box.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on April 05, 2024, 01:38:21 PM

Quote from: DavidW on April 05, 2024, 10:16:55 AMYeah I picked it up because I didn't liked the Londons in the Fischer set, so I took it as kind of a replacement.

I really enjoyed the sound samples from this set - that orchestra sounds really good in neoclassical repertoire on Naxos so it makes sense they sound so good in Haydn. But last time I asked about the set here, nobody had heard it. Now you have and you're tempting me!

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Daverz on April 05, 2024, 03:54:12 PM

How about Colin Davis with the Concertgebeow for the Londons? I need to at least give this set a closer listen. I usually choose from a mix of Szell, Bernstein, Klemperer and Jochum recordings.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 05, 2024, 03:56:46 PM

Quote from: Daverz on April 05, 2024, 03:54:12 PMHow about Colin Davis with the Concertgebeow for the Londons? I need to at least give this set a closer listen. I usually choose from a mix of Szell, Bernstein, Klemperer and Jochum recordings.

I like them.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 05, 2024, 04:51:53 PM

Quote from: Daverz on April 05, 2024, 03:54:12 PMHow about Colin Davis with the Concertgebeow for the Londons? I need to at least give this set a closer listen. I usually choose from a mix of Szell, Bernstein, Klemperer and Jochum recordings.

Davis/RCO was my introduction to the London symphonies! I have fond memories.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Madiel on April 05, 2024, 04:56:55 PM

Davis is what I still have for the London sets.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Jo498 on April 06, 2024, 10:00:33 AM

I have not heard them but the Davis used to be a standard "traditional" recommendation for the London set together with Jochum. Davis recorded a few pre-London as well, at least 82, 83, 86, 88, 91, 92.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Spotted Horses on April 06, 2024, 01:12:35 PM

Quote from: Karl Henning on April 05, 2024, 09:41:43 AMNo idea if it's still available, but I fetched in the DRD set for a song ($25) back when

That is the only complete I have, and I like it (except for the annoying applause). I had Dorati but sold it (no regrets) despite generally being a huge fan of Dorati.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: LKB on April 07, 2024, 07:30:48 AM

Quote from: DavidW on April 05, 2024, 08:49:17 AMI've heard a lot of Mahler recordings but I don't think that much! Mahler 9 is the one I obsess over the most.

While l think I'm fairly obsessive with Mahler, I've never really felt the need for multiple versions of Mahler recordings. It is the music I'm interested in, more than any specific recording ( with the exception of Symphony No. 2, possibly due to performing it several times ).

For Haydn, Hogwood, Marriner and Sir Colin Davis suit me.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 07, 2024, 07:56:20 AM

Quote from: LKB on April 07, 2024, 07:30:48 AMWhile l think I'm fairly obsessive with Mahler, I've never really felt the need for multiple versions of Mahler recordings. It is the music I'm interested in, more than any specific recording ( with the exception of Symphony No. 2, possibly due to performing it several times ).

I don't agree with the implicit assertion that people that collect multiple recordings are putting the performance in front of the music. That is just an arrogant and snide thing to say.

I listen to multiple recordings of the works that I love to see different perspectives on these masterpieces. It is out of love for the work. Please don't suggest otherwise. No need for gatekeeping how we appreciate music here. You deciding you only want to hear one recording of each work is not inherently superior to me listening to multiple recordings and attending concerts.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: LKB on April 07, 2024, 09:00:21 AM

Quote from: DavidW on April 07, 2024, 07:56:20 AMI don't agree with the implicit assertion that people that collect multiple recordings are putting the performance in front of the music. That is just an arrogant and snide thing to say.

I listen to multiple recordings of the works that I love to see different perspectives on these masterpieces. It is out of love for the work. Please don't suggest otherwise. No need for gatekeeping how we appreciate music here. You deciding you only want to hear one recording of each work is not inherently superior to me listening to multiple recordings and attending concerts.

I must say, I'm very much taken aback by this.

I was asserting nothing, and for the life of me cannot see how you arrived at the inferences described in your post.

Perhaps l was misunderstood due to poor wording on my part, so please allow me to clarify...

I listen to recordings with the intent of memorizing the music being recorded, in order to be able to enjoy it while working, shopping, travelling etc.

For that reason, I almost never own more than one recording of any given composition. Nearly all of the CDs l own are nearly forty years old, and l rarely listen to any of them, having memorized them decades ago.

Once the music is in my head, the source recording becomes mainly irrelevant. In fact, my collection is down to around forty discs, after selling, gifting and discarding hundreds over the years.

This is simply how l make use of recordings, and l would never make any claims of this usage being in some way more appropriate or " better " than anyone else's.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Karl Henning on April 07, 2024, 09:06:10 AM

Quote from: LKB on April 07, 2024, 09:00:21 AMI must say, I'm very much taken aback by this.

I was asserting nothing, and for the life of me cannot see how you arrived at the inferences described in your post.

Perhaps l was misunderstood due to poor wording on my part, so please allow me to clarify...

I listen to recordings with the intent of memorizing the music being recorded, in order to be able to enjoy it while working, shopping, travelling etc.

For that reason, I almost never own more than one recording of any given composition. Nearly all of the CDs l own are nearly forty years old, and l rarely listen to any of them, having memorized them decades ago.

Once the music is in my head, the source recording becomes mainly irrelevant. In fact, my collection is down to around forty discs, after selling, gifting and discarding hundreds over the years.

This is simply how l make use of recordings, and l would never make any claims of this usage being in some way more appropriate or " better " than anyone else's.

Most interesting.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: DavidW on April 07, 2024, 12:07:11 PM

Sorry @LKB I forgot that you're the one that commits the music to memory. That puts a very different spin on your post.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: LKB on April 07, 2024, 12:24:01 PM

Quote from: DavidW on April 07, 2024, 12:07:11 PMSorry @LKB I forgot that you're the one that commits the music to memory. That puts a very different spin on your post.

No worries. Misunderstandings are bound to happen, even between people of good will. 8)

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: Brian on April 08, 2024, 03:03:24 AM

Quote from: LKB on April 07, 2024, 09:00:21 AMI must say, I'm very much taken aback by this.

I was asserting nothing, and for the life of me cannot see how you arrived at the inferences described in your post.

Perhaps l was misunderstood due to poor wording on my part, so please allow me to clarify...

I listen to recordings with the intent of memorizing the music being recorded, in order to be able to enjoy it while working, shopping, travelling etc.

For that reason, I almost never own more than one recording of any given composition. Nearly all of the CDs l own are nearly forty years old, and l rarely listen to any of them, having memorized them decades ago.

Once the music is in my head, the source recording becomes mainly irrelevant. In fact, my collection is down to around forty discs, after selling, gifting and discarding hundreds over the years.

This is simply how l make use of recordings, and l would never make any claims of this usage being in some way more appropriate or " better " than anyone else's.

I didn't know this and am fascinated because I also memorize music in a similar way. It doesn't "replace" recordings for me, but, for example, I'm about to board a 2h 30m flight, and I have been thinking about long "concert programs" of music to play in my head during the travel.

A couple questions if it's ok...
How quickly can you memorize a piece by listening? For me it takes quite a large number of listens, probably 50+, although towards the end of the process I can be strategic about which sections I'm "targeting."

And are you able to manipulate the music in your head? Like have it play faster, slower, louder, quieter, etc. compared to your original recording.

One reason I like multiple recordings for this is that you don't always know that you can hear everything happening in every performance... I recently added a bass line to the Beethoven 7 in my head after hearing it more clearly on a new performance.

Title: Re: Haydn's Haus
Post by: LKB on April 08, 2024, 05:19:39 AM

Quote from: Brian on April 08, 2024, 03:03:24 AMI didn't know this and am fascinated because I also memorize music in a similar way. It doesn't "replace" recordings for me, but, for example, I'm about to board a 2h 30m flight, and I have been thinking about long "concert programs" of music to play in my head during the travel.

A couple questions if it's ok...
How quickly can you memorize a piece by listening? For me it takes quite a large number of listens, probably 50+, although towards the end of the process I can be strategic about which sections I'm "targeting."

And are you able to manipulate the music in your head? Like have it play faster, slower, louder, quieter, etc. compared to your original recording.

One reason I like multiple recordings for this is that you don't always know that you can hear everything happening in every performance... I recently added a bass line to the Beethoven 7 in my head after hearing it more clearly on a new performance.

Good questions, I'll try to provide worthy answers. ;)

Most of what is in my " memory banks " has been there for decades, starting at the age of eight and with " hardcore " memorization completed around age thirty. As for the reps, Longer pieces require more but on the average, I'd say between fifteen and twenty plays for a 45-60 minute piece.

The correct environment is probably most vital. When I was memorizing, it was a focused activity. Turn out the lights, get comfortable in the chair or on the bed, start the recording and put everything else out of my mind. I would never try to learn a new piece while doing chores, homework, the household budget etc. It was always the only activity, and under as optimal circumstances as could be arranged.

As far as manipulating the music, it's fairly easy to do. Adding hall resonance or removing same, changing dynamics or tempos, transposing, re-orchestrating are all available. ( Note, usually I don't engage in such manipulation since it requires specific attention to whatever change is in effect. I play the " stereo " between my ears for the exact same reasons most folks listen to music, and most folks don't want to have to " work " at it. )

There is a game I like to play at times: Start two disparate compositions simultaneously in two different keys, and see how long I can maintain them both before things break down ( usually 10-12 seconds ). If I'm rested and feeling cocky I'll start three pieces, but I've never been able to keep that up for more a few seconds. ;D

I hope I've answered satisfactorily. 8)

GMG Classical Music Forum

The Music Room => Composer Discussion => Topic started by: Gurn Blanston on April 06, 2007, 04:15:04 PM