GMG Classical Music Forum

Hello, it's Guillermo from statework.

Here is the rub. Although a plethora of performances exist of the Beethoven Nine Symphonies, both officially released and unofficially recorded, which of them have you played most often in your life so far? Alternately, which is your favorite. These two things can be frequently exclusive. Yes, I am trying to start a free-for-all.

My own two bits: After hearing most of the available recordings out there at least once over these 20 years of truly obsessive classical music-collecting behavior, I imprinted on the Karajan / Berliner Phil 1962 cycle. that is in the running, always, regardless of later constructions regarding personal taste. So that is the one I've heard most.

But the ones that I've really gotten impressed and pleased by? The spotty Paavo Jarvi and his Deutsche Kammerphilharmie Bremen folks do a great job of reinvigorating the majority of symphonies. It has too many swaths where I'm spooked out of the reverie by the loss of 'feeling', or gusto. Dunno. fun regardless.
Andre Cluytens and the Berliners is my dark horse fave. What verve, for the time, and a more complete experience... but comes across as still a bit creaky here and there. It is as if some set pieces were bound by tradition, another thing I cannot properly express but feel is a slight impairment.
To be honest, i never got over the whole southeast asian minor issue, despite Mikhail Pletnev's acquittal. I feel bad about that, because his Russian Orchestra's cycle was really satisfying. Still, not tops.

So. Immerseel and Anima Eterna are great but i red flag some of the overzealous tempi when I hear them, especially in the 6th. Another one full of superlative heights offset by maddeningly vain lows (but that would be just perfect for Ludwig Van, now isn't it??)

Ivan Fischer leading  both the Budapest Festival and, at other junctures, the Orchestra of the Age Of Enlightenment have a cobbled together set from performances in the last 5 years that would take the cake. but for a clinching 9th, which it lacks...

The Ormandy / Fab Phillies Cycle is my favorite in the scratchy LP pressing I have digitized, but it may be abetted by the pops and jumps, and that nostalgic lagniappe brings with it a disqualifying sentimentality...
The Leibowitz cycle is a solid choice. All round, top 89% . no lagging below a standard. Yet, no sailing clear of the margins either...

Maybe I need to listen to the semi recent Bruggen/ Orchestra of the 18th Cen, and the Herreweghe with his Flemish forces, as they both have sway over me these past weeks. They sent me back into the perennial Beethoven madness, anyway!

HHmmmmmmm :-\ 

So this is why The Question in this post.

What do you think about your favorite ( or only ) Beethoven Cycle?

As someone who almost never listento HIP performances, my current favorite since its arrival a year ago has been Immerseel.

Norrington - LCP

I share some of your favorites. I was imprinted on Karajan '62: it was the set my dad kept in the house, it was the set I was raised on.

I think Immerseel's is my favorite Fifth.
I think Paavo Jarvi is a very interesting cycle, although it is very similar to Thomas Dausgaard, which mostly came first.
Abbado/Berlin, the "Rome" cycle (red box), is a very good all-around set. Mackerras and Scottish Chamber Orchestra are only slightly less good.

Barenboim and the Staatskapelle Berlin are an excellent alternative, but the interpretations are so unusual, so monumental in scope, that they are not a #1 pick.

I am currently listening to Chailly/Gewandhaus. If 4-9 are as good as 1-3, this will be one of my favorite cycles ever.

My favorite performances of each symphony?
1: Dausgaard, Mackerras, Skrowaczewski, Chailly
2: Dausgaard, P. Jarvi
3: Dausgaard uber alles
4: Hogwood uber alles
5: Immerseel uber alles
6: Barenboim, P. Jarvi
7: C. Kleiber, Chailly, Karajan '62, Abbado/Rome
8: Abbado/Rome, P. Jarvi, Karajan '62, Haitink/LSO
9: Wand/RCA, Dohnanyi, Gardiner, Abbado/Rome

Cycles I have heard: Karajan '62, Szell, Harnoncourt, Gardiner, Hogwood, Immerseel, Mackerras, Dausgaard, Skrowaczewski, P. Jarvi, Barenboim, Abbado/Rome, Nelson, Haitink/LSO
Cycles I own but have not yet heard in full: Bernstein/Sony, van Zweden, Chailly

EDIT: Fixed typos, I am intoxicated

i fear there is too much candy in the shop for me to pick!!   :)   the cycles i have are hvk '63 & klemperer/philharmonia, plus a few great singles scattered around.  i have no favorite between the two, but appreciate the different sounds they produce.
the cycles i want are schmidt-isserstedt/vpo & and the ancient weingartner/vpo.

  I can not live with only one Beethoven symphonies cycle. But to me, Karajan (BPO 1962), Klemperer (Philharmonia), Szell (Cleveland Orchestra), Schuricht (Paris), Kletzki (Czech Phiharmonic) all are indispensible. And Furtwängler in wartime IMHO created the most passionate performances I have heard, though I can't live with only them  ( because they wrenched my heart).

It is impossible to pick one Beethoven cycle as no conductor is going to be equally convincing in them all.
Of the ones I own the is:
Toscanini - great performances, a little hard driven at times but at their best awesome. Sadly let down by the sound - poor even for the day.
Klemperer - I have two sets - the Philamonia  and a set taken from live broadcasts. K is very interesting for the way he builds movements - he is, however, pretty slow. But we'll worth hearing.
Karajan 62 - tremendous set a little short on repeats. I supplemented it with 3, 6, 9 from '77. Number 6 from 62 is a bit hard driven - the 77 is better being just a little more relaxed.
Norrington - interesting but doesn't have the grandeur of HvK.
Chailly - fantastic playing and recording. Still wondering whether I like the fast tempi or not.
Whatever set y have, Carlos Kleiber's 5&7 on DG is a must. Supendous.

Quote from: Brian on January 30, 2013, 07:49:30 PM
...
Abbado/Berlin, the "Rome" cycle (red box),
'''
I am currently listening to Chailly/Gewandhaus. If 4-9 are as good as 1-3, this will be one of my favorite cycles ever.

...

, van Zweden...

AH! that Chailly is another I did really enjoy. I consider it an updated Rene Liebowitz set, in more wonderful sound quality.  Brutally delicious recording sound, really.

I've not heard the Rome Set!! I will do so! thank you.

I liked Van Zweden, but only heard it once.

   
and trung, I am ashamed, not having heard the Kletzki!

But... the Furtwangler omission is the neon stripe-pajama'd elephant with paisley sneakers in the room. I imprinted on Karajan, yes. But upon getting into the back stories of everyone, everything, that history led me to Furtwangler and I listened to Music and Arts wartime cycle- incomplete as it is- incessantly. Enraptured. I am a complete WF groupie. I left him out because, well, I flaked. It's too big, so I just skipped mention.

but Furtwangler's 1952 Eroica? those engulfing 1942 NINTHS.  What.

What.

I suppose there is my answer. My favorite is the Furtwangler. I just hadn't come to realize it.

Thank you.

Quote from: stateworker on January 31, 2013, 05:13:46 PM
I liked Van Zweden, but only heard it once.

Van Zweden's is one of those perennially underrated sets but sadly the hopes it'll ever be more than a curio seems unlikely. It bobbed out of print the second it came IN print and got zero promotion. But it is a worthy set, no doubt.

My top picks:

[asin]B000JU7N88[/asin]

[asin]B004NWHVSA[/asin]

HIP runners up:

[asin]B0014WSWTY[/asin]

(http://boxset.ru/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/bruggen_beethoven_9symphonies.jpg) (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphonies-Eike-Wilm-Schulte/dp/B00000418Z/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1359701441&sr=1-2&keywords=beethoven+bruggen)

Q

The Hanover Band with Goodman and Hugget is absolutely No.1 if you have good acustic in the room.

My other favorites are Kletzki and Paavo Jarvi.

I like Chailly and Mackerras, Immerseel and new Haitink.

Don't like Furtwangler and Toscanini, never heard Schell and Jochum.

Want to try Leibowitz and Dausgaard.

Quote from: stateworker on January 31, 2013, 05:13:46 PM
AH! that Chailly is another I did really enjoy. I consider it an updated Rene Liebowitz set, in more wonderful sound quality.  Brutally delicious recording sound, really.

I've not heard the Rome Set!! I will do so! thank you.

I liked Van Zweden, but only heard it once.

   
and trung, I am ashamed, not having heard the Kletzki!

But... the Furtwangler omission is the neon stripe-pajama'd elephant with paisley sneakers in the room. I imprinted on Karajan, yes. But upon getting into the back stories of everyone, everything, that history led me to Furtwangler and I listened to Music and Arts wartime cycle- incomplete as it is- incessantly. Enraptured. I am a complete WF groupie. I left him out because, well, I flaked. It's too big, so I just skipped mention.

but Furtwangler's 1952 Eroica? those engulfing 1942 NINTHS.  What.

What.

I suppose there is my answer. My favorite is the Furtwangler. I just hadn't come to realize it.

Thank you.

Welcome to Furtwängler Groupie, Stateworker  ;D. About Kletzki, I think you should try this set. About interpretation, I found Kletzki is not so original.Apart from symphony 1,2,4, he was at best in the Pastoral symphonies (which is one of my favorite with Cluytens BPO, Furtwängler wartime, Walter CSO, Kleiber BRSO, Mengelberg RCOA), but in the  high voltage symphonies 3,5,7,9, he laid back to the ordinary conductor. The reasons to make this set interesting for me is the Czech Philharmonic, which  the unique rustic sound makes the Beethoven symphonies more playful but not in expense of heft and power in outer section.

overall i would say Wand's first cycle is the one i find the least amount of things to disagree with.  like his Bruckner, it just makes sense.  and his 3rd, 5th and 9th are among the best ever imo.  bruggen is a close second, the highs are way higher, but the lows are lower.

now if i had a choice of individual recordings of each?
1: bernstein/vpo
2: bernstein/vpo
3: toscanini [39], wand, bruggen, zinman, dohnanyi/cleveland
4: zinman, kubelik/israel po
5: wand, bruggen, leibowitz, karajan [77], dorati
6: vanska, zinman
7: bruggen, rattle, karajan [77], leibowitz
8: chailly,
9: wand, szell, furtwangler [42]

I have the Dohnanyi/Cleveland Orchestra complete symphonies: it is cheaper to buy them individually (6 CD's) than to buy the out-of-print set.

Great sound and performances: but yes, the other recommendations from earlier days (Karajan, Szell, Kubelik, Jochum) are fine also.

Though not being exactly a Beethovian, my two fave cycles are Leibowitz (modern instruments) and Brüggen I (period instruments) on Philips, which, overall, I slightly prefer to Van Immerssel. (Have not heard Brüggen II yet.)

Nice to hear some love for the very fine Cluytens set. Goes to show what the Berliners could do before Karajan changed their sound, but with a more disciplined conductor than Willi.

There can't ever be one top Beethoven symphony set. It is by necessity an ongoing exploration. The ones that really do it for me right now are Schuricht, Chailly, Barenboim (especially 3, 6 and 7), Antonini's marvellous ongoing cycle (especially the 3rd makes you wonder why you should ever bother with P. Järvi). Kleiber jr. of course remains indispensable (though I would throw in his (pirated) live 5th with CSO!). Oh, btw, I recently came across a stupendous live 5th with de Sabata and NYPO! Wow, what a performance!

Fun thread.  After growing up with Szell and Karajan ('62) and listening to the living hell out of the Karajan I have settled on the Immerseel set as my favorite.  Like the OP I'm not fond of his sixth, but that has nothing to do with excessive tempos. ;)

Quote from: trung224 on February 01, 2013, 04:42:20 AM
About interpretation, I found Kletzki is not so original.Apart from symphony 1,2,4, he was at best in the Pastoral symphonies, but in the  high voltage symphonies 3,5,7,9, he laid back to the ordinary conductor.

I can't agree less, 3 and 9 are absolutely high points of this set, especially 1st movement of 9 is for me much richer and colourfull than any other I have heard so far, after unbelievable cosmos waves of Kletzki almost all other interpretation seems to me absolutely banal in their onedimensional dramatic approach.

By the way I have heard Szell at last, I liked it, definitely l liked it, but not so much to make it one of my favorite choices.

My favorite recent cycle remains Osmo Vänskä. Precision and passion produces riveting results.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51drfA9snbL._SY300_.jpg)


As someone who grew up on period instrument performances, I wish I liked the Immerseel set more, but it just doesn't catch fire.

I'm just too new at it all to have a favorite yet.  Let me say that I was really impressed by Peter Maag's cycle with the Orchestra di Padova e del Veneto (Arts Music), which I acquired ~2011 and revisited almost a year ago, and it still hovers over all the Beethoven symphonies I've listened to since then.  Not "better/over", necessarily, but...I'm sorry, I'd need to listen to it again to articulate it.  It just seemed like forceful but not "forced" musicmaking, if that makes any sense. 
I also very recently acquired the Dohnanyi/Cleveland that Cato just mentioned, in separate installments (pretty cheap through BRO); and it was incredibly powerful: a sun to Maag's moon.

Still, impossible for me to decide with so much of what I've ingested coming from just the past 1.5 years of listening.  Too much, too fast, too soon.

Chailly if I want two channels, Toscanini '39 (M&A) if I want one.

I believe the first set of all 9 I ever had was Ansermet and the SRO. A lot of people like Ansermet's Ninth, but I find it rather low key. Some may find the Fifth to be rather low key, but I like it because the structures are very clear. The Third, Fourth, and Seventh are outstanding, and the Sixth is really quite nice. The Eroica is my favorite. You can now get them all on CD.

The most consistently fine set I have is Leibowitz/RPO which I have on Chesky reissues. To my mind, the Fifth and Seventh easily beat the famous recordings by Carlos Kleiber, and the sound is certainly better.  The Third, Fourth, Sixth, Eighth and Ninth are all strong performances. The Eighth is the best I have heard, and the Ninth is quite fine, although some do not like the bass soloist.

My favorite performance of the Ninth is with Otmar Suitner and the Berlin Staatskapelle. The sound is very smooth and spacious, and the drums in first movement about 8 minutes in are stunning. The soloists are all quite competent. The set also has an outstanding Fourth, and a very nice Sixth. The others are given satisfactory performances, so it's a decent set, though people want a lot of money for it. Karajan 1962 is much cheaper.

Karajan 1962 is a very strong set, the chief weakness being a rather business-like Sixth. We gave this set to some friends of ours for Christmas a few years ago and they have been very happy with it. It has certainly stood the test of time.

Like Xenophanes, I am also a Leobowitz fan, have all nine and his Eroica is just superb. I also think that the bass soloist was sub par on what would otherwise have been an outstanding Ninth.

I imprinted on the Cluytens cycle over 40 years ago and it's still hard to beat as an overall choice and Bruno Walter, apart from a dreadful 9th did a good stereo set though I feel his mono cycle on M&A is a bit better. While I also have complete cycles from Toscanini/NBCSO, Furtwangler/various orchestras, Josef Krips, Pierre Monteux/various, Fritz Reiner/various I haven't acquired an LvB symphony recording in quite a while. Maybe I'm over this or alternatively, am satisfied that I can find a performance of each symphony in my collection that deeply satisfies me.

Karajan/Berliner '62
Dohnányi/Cleveland (Telarc)
Hogwood/AAM

I like Osmo Vanska on SACD, but one of my priorities is top end sound (no hissy mono recordings for me no matter how historically great.)

I also like Harnoncourt's period style recordings - very nice.

If I were listening on my expensive home stereo, I'd pick Vanska.  If I were listening on my iPod, I'd pick Harnoncourt.

I haven't heard Wand's entire cycle but his 6th is very nice, and they say his 9th is great.

Way back in 1960 Everest released its Beethoven set with Joseph Krips and the London Symphony.   I bought the set mostly because it was the least expensive available, and I didn't have a lot of money for such things.  Since then I bought CDs by Karajan and some Klemper recordings.  When the Everest set was re-released on CD, I snapped it up because I no longer had a vinyl collection (or a turntable).  The Krips/London Symphony re-issue on CD has pleasant if not cutting-edge sonics.  The performances are pure nostalgia for me.  The CDs may no longer be available, but I think MP3 downloads are still available,  at very cheap prices.

Wand

I also like Barenboim, Szell and HvK '63.

First cycle I had was Karajan's 80's one.  So that's a fave.  Bought many more since then but you always remember your first.

Quote from: jut1972 on June 26, 2013, 12:38:03 PM
First cycle I had was Karajan's 80's one.  So that's a fave.  Bought many more since then but you always remember your first.

That's the only Beethoven cycle I ever encountered that I could not bring myself to listen to.  Karajan '63 is probably my favorite MI cycle, with Harnoncourt and Cluytens.

Harnoncourt

am i one of the 3 the people in the universe who likes karajan's 80s beethoven more than the 60s-70s? [have not heard his 50s cycle ftr]

Quote from: xochitl on June 27, 2013, 02:05:36 PM
am i one of the 3 the people in the universe who likes karajan's 80s beethoven more than the 60s-70s? [have not heard his 50s cycle ftr]

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-XHUv2I37fDc/Te_VNutWtHI/AAAAAAAAAF8/BMpptzCXu6s/s1600/Magic+8-ball.gif)

klemperer/philharmonia & hvk/bpo 60s.  I want Schmidt-Isserstedt/vpo 

Another +1 for Harnoncourt

[asin]B000095IUM[/asin]

I especially love his 9th symphony.  It just sounds more exciting than all the other recordings I have heard.

If you have SACD, then the Karajan 60's is definitely worth getting - the improved sound reveals quite a lot of nuance that DG lost in it's standard rez recordings.  For Redbook, I second (third?  fourth?) the Chailly set. 

Quote from: Kreutzer on June 24, 2013, 03:38:04 PM
Way back in 1960 Everest released its Beethoven set with Joseph Krips and the London Symphony.   I bought the set mostly because it was the least expensive available, and I didn't have a lot of money for such things.  Since then I bought CDs by Karajan and some Klemper recordings.  When the Everest set was re-released on CD, I snapped it up because I no longer had a vinyl collection (or a turntable).  The Krips/London Symphony re-issue on CD has pleasant if not cutting-edge sonics.  The performances are pure nostalgia for me.  The CDs may no longer be available, but I think MP3 downloads are still available,  at very cheap prices.

Kreutzer, Krips was also my first set, bought by my mother at my insistence when I was about 10 years old. I am sure she bought it for it's bargain value. I too pick it up when it came out on CD and feel it holds up well. Of the 14 cycles I own (plus a cobbled together collection of Furtwangler Beethoven), my favorites are Klemperer, Szell and one not mentioned here yet, Karl Bohm. If I had to pick one, it would probably be Bohm. The three sets are quite different from each other and compliment each other well. I love Furtwangler's Beethoven Symphonies but you really should create your own set and double up on some symphonies (triple up in the case of the Ninth). I have Karajan 62 and 77 but have never fallen for Herbert. A different Herbert cycle, not yet mentioned here, that I like a lot is Blomstedt's Cycle from Dresden on Berlin Classics. Nothing eccentric, just consistently well played Beethoven.

The only recent sets I own are Rattle and Pletnev. Neither are my favorites but I do find Pletnev rather eccentric in a good way. I suppose after so many cycles and other random Beethoven Symphony recordings, I have come to look for things that stand out from the crowd.

Quote from: Rhymenoceros on June 28, 2013, 05:38:44 AM
Another +1 for Harnoncourt

[asin]B000095IUM[/asin]

I especially love his 9th symphony.  It just sounds more exciting than all the other recordings I have heard.

Another +1 for Harnoncourt.  A thrilling 7th, especially the 1st movement.

Quote from: xochitl on June 27, 2013, 02:05:36 PM
am i one of the 3 the people in the universe who likes karajan's 80s beethoven more than the 60s-70s? [have not heard his 50s cycle ftr]

Just listened to the '80s set for the first time. In my view, all three sets (haven't heard the '50s either) are pretty damn similar in approach overall. I've enjoyed them all, and the sound of the '80s cycle on the "Karajan Gold" remasters is fine. I'm not sure which HvK cycle I prefer, but I don't think your preference for the last one is unreasonable at all—not that your opinion needs my validation.

Quote from: Kreutzer on June 24, 2013, 03:38:04 PM
Way back in 1960 Everest released its Beethoven set with Joseph Krips and the London Symphony.   I bought the set mostly because it was the least expensive available, and I didn't have a lot of money for such things.  Since then I bought CDs by Karajan and some Klemper recordings.  When the Everest set was re-released on CD, I snapped it up because I no longer had a vinyl collection (or a turntable).  The Krips/London Symphony re-issue on CD has pleasant if not cutting-edge sonics.  The performances are pure nostalgia for me.  The CDs may no longer be available, but I think MP3 downloads are still available,  at very cheap prices.

Quote from: David M on September 12, 2013, 09:43:33 AM
Kreutzer, Krips was also my first set, bought by my mother at my insistence when I was about 10 years old. I am sure she bought it for it's bargain value. I too pick it up when it came out on CD and feel it holds up well.

Wow!  There are two others (beside me) who double-dipped on the Krips/LSO.  In my case, my mother first bought the audio cassette version for me, not LP, when I was about 14.  It was distributed by Murray-Hill Records and Tapes, and I remember that it was in a purplish-brown case.  I had two annoyances about the cassette set, and they weren't about the sound quality:
1) There was no liner notes booklet -- at least, my copy didn't have it.  I had also acquired the cassette version of Brendel's "Complete" Piano Music, also put out by Murray Hill (4 volumes of 4 cassettes each), and there were liner notes booklets included for those.
2) Because of the length of Symphony No. 9, Side A actually ended in the middle of the 3rd movement.  You flip over to Side B to hear the end of the 3rd movement, and the 4th movement.

However, the Krips/LSO was not my first cycle.  It was Solti/Chicago, only because it was the only complete cycle available in my public library when I was 10 years old.  I borrowed the LPs, and dubbed them to cassette tape (please don't report me to the authorities! :o)  Then I got the Krips/LSO on cassette when I was 14, and I bought Krips/LSO on CD many years later.  In the interim, I've listened to a few other cycles by borrowing from other libraries, including Hogwood/AAM and Karajan/Berlin '62.

I only own one cycle currently (with a couple of exceptions I do not own multiple recordings of the same work): the Zinman/Tonhalle Zurich.  Others may not agree, but I really like this cycle, my favorite of the ones I've heard so far.  I used to own the DVDs of Abbado/Berlin as well, and they were fine, but nevertheless I've sold them.

Quote from: jeffnc on June 16, 2013, 05:03:04 AM
(no hissy mono recordings for me no matter how historically great.)

That's sad.

I don't understand complaints about hiss on analog recordings.  It's never been an issue for me.  People must have overly bright sound systems.  Or maybe it's tinny computer speakers.

Quote from: Daverz on September 13, 2013, 09:15:33 AM
That's sad.

I don't understand complaints about hiss on analog recordings.  It's never been an issue for me.  People must have overly bright sound systems.  Or maybe it's tinny computer speakers.

The hiss was the first thing I noticed (and didn't like) when I started listening to classical recordings, but I quickly got used to it.

I have since learned that you can't remove the hiss without dulling the overall sound.

Quote from: Daverz on September 13, 2013, 09:15:33 AM
That's sad.

I don't understand complaints about hiss on analog recordings.  It's never been an issue for me.  People must have overly bright sound systems.  Or maybe it's tinny computer speakers.

I think it depends on when the original recording was made.  For me,  almost everything recorded before 1950 (a very approximate date) is too "hissy" to be interesting as anything other than its historical interest.    For whatever reason,  recordings in the '50s (and a couple in the late 40s) seem to have overcome that problem, and while the sonics may seem dull on some of them,  a number of mono recordings from the late 50s actually sound better to me than some early stereo recordings.

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on September 13, 2013, 09:22:22 AM
I think it depends on when the original recording was made.  For me,  almost everything recorded before 1950 (a very approximate date) is too "hissy" to be interesting as anything other than its historical interest.    For whatever reason,  recordings in the '50s (and a couple in the late 40s) seem to have overcome that problem, and while the sonics may seem dull on some of them,  a number of mono recordings from the late 50s actually sound better to me than some early stereo recordings.

There were improvements in recording techniques just before tape came in.  About 1944 on, I think.

I admit that I don't listen to pre-1950 stuff that often.

Is anyone else a fan of Haitink's LSO cycle? I got it because it fit what I was looking for (modern orchestra with some light HIP influence), and because of the SACD potential. I lost interest in the SACD part, but I still have and like the set.

if im in the mood for big-band beethoven without frills, with good speeds and great sound, exactingly executed: haitink hits the spot more than pretty much anyone [including vanska and dohnanyi]

Quote from: xochitl on September 13, 2013, 03:15:28 PM
if im in the mood for big-band beethoven without frills, with good speeds and great sound, exactingly executed: haitink hits the spot more than pretty much anyone [including vanska and dohnanyi]

Yeah. I think he's best in 4, 5, 7, and 8, but it's a good, consistent set throughout.

Quote from: Velimir on September 13, 2013, 12:35:37 PM
Is anyone else a fan of Haitink's LSO cycle? I got it because it fit what I was looking for (modern orchestra with some light HIP influence), and because of the SACD potential. I lost interest in the SACD part, but I still have and like the set.

Yes but I prefer Vanska.

Quote from: Cascade on June 13, 2013, 03:37:35 PM
Karajan/Berliner '62
Dohnányi/Cleveland (Telarc)
Hogwood/AAM

I am missing some of the Dohnányi, but I would be set with these three cycles as well....then it is cherry picking time! ;)

What is the consensus on the Hanover Band?  I see that the set of 9 symphonies is a cheap mp3 download . . . but I want opinions!

(I have an idea I may have heard a couple of these way back at the dawn of the compact disc era . . . but I may be mistaken.)

Quote from: xochitl on September 13, 2013, 03:15:28 PM
if im in the mood for big-band beethoven without frills, with good speeds and great sound, exactingly executed: haitink hits the spot more than pretty much anyone [including vanska and dohnanyi]

I'm very fond of Blomstedt's Dresden set for "no frills" Beethoven.

Quote from: sanantonio on October 22, 2013, 04:37:34 AM
The main complaint I have is with the recorded sound - too reverberant.

Thank you!

Quote from: Daverz on October 22, 2013, 04:37:07 AM
I'm very fond of Blomstedt's Dresden set for "no frills" Beethoven.

Yes that is terrific. 

The ones that xochitl mention are faster in tempo than the traditional performances (Blomstedt is middle of the road).  Kind of made his comment uninterpretable" what constitutes "good tempo"  for him?  I don't know, but based on what he likes I'm guessing he won't like Blomstedt, which is too bad.

Quote from: DavidW on September 14, 2013, 06:27:02 AM

Quote from: Velimir on September 13, 2013, 12:35:37 PM
Is anyone else a fan of Haitink's LSO cycle? I got it because it fit what I was looking for (modern orchestra with some light HIP influence), and because of the SACD potential. I lost interest in the SACD part, but I still have and like the set.

Yes but I prefer Vanska.

Thanks, gents . . . I've been enjoying the samples of the Haitink/LSO set.

That said, when I saw how cheap the Immerseel is, I pulled the trigger on that one immediately.  (I know: no reason not to enjoy both!)

Digital download Karl?  The Haitink set is cheap too (as a dd) but not as cheap as Immerseel.

Aye . . . and heck, the Blomstedt/Dresden set is as cheap as the Immerseel.  This would be one heck of an atypical day if I buy multiple LvB symphony sets  :)

Quote from: karlhenning on October 22, 2013, 04:38:27 AM
Thank you!

Dooooonnnttt yyyyoouuuuu mmeeeaaaannnn thhhhhaannnnnnkkkkk yoooouuuuuu?

Quote from: karlhenning on October 22, 2013, 05:35:44 AM
Aye . . . and heck, the Blomstedt/Dresden set is as cheap as the Immerseel.  This would be one heck of an atypical day if I buy multiple LvB symphony sets  :)

Indeed. I had to check your avatar twice to make sure it was really you.

Quote from: karlhenning on October 22, 2013, 05:35:44 AM
Aye . . . and heck, the Blomstedt/Dresden set is as cheap as the Immerseel.  This would be one heck of an atypical day if I buy multiple LvB symphony sets  :)

Those are just about as opposite as cycles get!

Quote from: George on October 22, 2013, 06:24:26 AM
Dooooonnnttt yyyyoouuuuu mmeeeaaaannnn thhhhhaannnnnnkkkkk yoooouuuuuu?

Why am I thinking Mrs Whatsit?  :)

There's no really good reason why I listen to LvB as infrequently as I do . . . .

Quote from: Brian on October 22, 2013, 06:26:26 AM
Those are just about as opposite as cycles get!

Celibidache would better maximize the contrast!

Quote from: sanantonio on October 22, 2013, 04:37:34 AM
The main complaint I have is with the recorded sound - too reverberant.

I have only heard samples and I crossed it off the list for that very reason. The Scherzo of the 9th especially.

I went ahead and ordered the Immerseel set yesterday. I don't really need another Beethoven symphony cycle but it adds PI versions of most of the overtures and it's cheap.

Quote from: DavidW on October 22, 2013, 05:16:09 AM
The ones that xochitl mention are faster in tempo than the traditional performances (Blomstedt is middle of the road).  Kind of made his comment uninterpretable" what constitutes "good tempo"  for him?  I don't know, but based on what he likes I'm guessing he won't like Blomstedt, which is too bad.

i guess i meant 'faster than traditional tempo'  ;D
and i havent heard the blomstedt but adore his nielsen and sibelius so i'd probably like/love his beethoven unless he gets all karl bohm on me :yawn:

Quote from: xochitl on October 22, 2013, 07:02:12 PM
i guess i meant 'faster than traditional tempo'  ;D
and i havent heard the blomstedt but adore his nielsen and sibelius so i'd probably like/love his beethoven unless he gets all karl bohm on me :yawn:

If Bohm adopts similar tempos to what he uses in Mozart, then Blomstedt is faster.

Quote from: DavidW on October 23, 2013, 04:33:03 AM
If Bohm adopts similar tempos to what he uses in Mozart, then Blomstedt is faster.

Bohm's Beethoven cycle was typical of his era, but would be considered lethargic by todays HIP-influenced standards.  Bohm's Beethoven is one of the few parts of his discography that I got no pleasure from.  His Mozart, though not fast, strikes me as resolute and satisfying.

Quote from: karlhenning on October 22, 2013, 04:33:50 AM
What is the consensus on the Hanover Band?  I see that the set of 9 symphonies is a cheap mp3 download . . . but I want opinions!

(I have an idea I may have heard a couple of these way back at the dawn of the compact disc era . . . but I may be mistaken.)

Hanover Band has a profoundly underpowered Ninth.  The chorus seems to have been twelve people singing at the opposite end of the hall from the microphones.  The other eight symphonies are much better recorded. 

Of the  recent cycles (meaning in the last decade or so),  I'd point to P. Jarvi and Chailly.

I'm finding the Chailly a temptation.

Still.  Even having sprung for (and been pleased by) the Blomstedt and Immerseel just yesterday . . . .

Quote from: karlhenning on October 23, 2013, 08:45:50 AM
I'm finding the Chailly a temptation.

I've been reading outsized praise for Chailly's 'groundbreaking' approach to these works, but when I listen to samples they sound like Toscanini in good sound, nothing particularly new.  Of course, samples are just samples.

Quote from: Scarpia on October 23, 2013, 07:51:17 AM
Bohm's Beethoven cycle was typical of his era, but would be considered lethargic by todays HIP-influenced standards.  Bohm's Beethoven is one of the few parts of his discography that I got no pleasure from.  His Mozart, though not fast, strikes me as resolute and satisfying.

I love his Mozart!  I had this recording which was one of my favorites, and it unfortunately became damaged (it was one of the favorites in my collection):

[asin]B000001GXI[/asin]

What recordings do you like?

Quote from: DavidW on October 23, 2013, 09:25:23 AM
I love his Mozart!  I had this recording which was one of my favorites, and it unfortunately became damaged (it was one of the favorites in my collection):

[asin]B000001GXI[/asin]

What recordings do you like?

i have a 2 cd set of symphonies with the bpo.

Quote from: Scarpia on October 23, 2013, 09:02:52 AM
I've been reading outsized praise for Chailly's 'groundbreaking' approach to these works, but when I listen to samples they sound like Toscanini in good sound, nothing particularly new.  Of course, samples are just samples.

Yeah, I don't know if it's groundbreaking (but it is pretty terrific).

Böhm's Mozart vs Beethoven. I'll take his Beethoven. Terrific 6 and 9...and sexy too  8)

Sarge

Quote from: Brian on October 23, 2013, 10:03:31 AM
Yeah, I don't know if it's groundbreaking (but it is pretty terrific).

Although I usually don't shy away from multiple recordings of works, I feel no need for more Beethoven Symphonies.  I could live with my Immersaal, Karajan '63, and Harnoncourt indefinitely.  I've got a few others (Barenboim, Cluytens, Schuricht, Haitink, Karajan '77) but I don't see thay they add any fundamentally different insights.  I am curious to hear Chailly's new recording of the Brahms Symphonies.

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 23, 2013, 10:35:58 AM
Böhm's Mozart vs Beethoven. I'll take his Beethoven. Terrific 6 and 9...and sexy too  8)

Sarge

No room for both? :'(

Quote from: DavidW on October 23, 2013, 11:13:05 AM
No room for both? :'(

Not in my universe. Mozart: Szell, Harnoncourt, Klemperer.

Sarge

Quote from: Sergeant Rock on October 23, 2013, 11:19:46 AM
Not in my universe. Mozart: Szell, Harnoncourt, Klemperer.

Sarge

Such a small list, I guess you don't like Mozart as much as Haydn.

Quote from: Scarpia on October 23, 2013, 11:02:07 AM
I could live with my Immersaal, Karajan '63, and Harnoncourt indefinitely.

If you're gonna pick only 3, it's hard to argue with those choices -- so much awesomeness and variety there!

(Immerseel, by the way.)

Quote from: DavidW on October 23, 2013, 11:36:46 AM
Such a small list, I guess you don't like Mozart as much as Haydn.

Mozart is Top 10. I love a number of Mozart conductors but those three, in the symphonies, are my favorites. Böhm just does't appeal to me at all. He makes Mozart sound like mush. Compare Klemps's 25 with Böhm to see and hear what I mean.

Sarge

My frontrunner is the Haitink/LSO set on the orchestra's own label. The download version is currently listed at 15.98 at Amazon which seems rather low for a 6 SACD set.

[asin]B000GUJYRE[/asin]

I also have the Harnoncourt previously mentioned, and Brilliant's Sawallisch cycle as well.

Quote from: stingo on October 24, 2013, 08:13:05 AM
My frontrunner is the Haitink/LSO set on the orchestra's own label. The download version is currently listed at 15.98 at Amazon which seems rather low for a 6 SACD set.

[asin]B000GUJYRE[/asin]

Aye, I enjoyed sampling that one, as well.

Quote from: Scarpia on October 23, 2013, 09:02:52 AM
I've been reading outsized praise for Chailly's 'groundbreaking' approach to these works, but when I listen to samples they sound like Toscanini in good sound, nothing particularly new.  Of course, samples are just samples.

It has been a few years since I listened to the Toscanini recordings (in part because of the sound),  but  I don't remember them being similar in approach to the Chailly.  Chailly is very good at bringing out the "dark side", or the emotional undertow more precisely, of the symphonies, and I'm not sure samples would do it justice.  I don't remember which streaming service you use--but can you use it to listen to one of his recordings of a full symphony? Or at least a few movement in toto?  That would get you better idea of what he produces.

It depends on which samples you listened to. I think Chailly is good to fantastic in 1, 2, 4, 7, 8, but misses the mark with 3 and 9, and has a forgettable 5.


The 8 is the highlight of the cycle for me personally.

i almost totally dismissed chailly when it came out [apart from the 8th], but re-listened to the whole cycle a few weeks ago and it's won me over.  still think it's overrated as some sort of 'magical reference modern recording', but it's really solid, detailed, breathtakingly played, and fast as all hell. so it's missing the deeper aspects of the music...oh well.

Well, and what if those are Beethoven's markings?  Does the composer himself "miss the deeper aspects of the music"?  0:)

I'm no expert at all, but as far as "big band" Beethoven goes, I have been greatly enjoying the CzPO/Kletzki set recently. The 7th and 8th seem particularly fine to me.

Quote from: karlhenning on October 29, 2013, 05:15:16 AM
Well, and what if those are Beethoven's markings?  Does the composer himself "miss the deeper aspects of the music"?  0:)

:-\

Quote from: edward on October 29, 2013, 05:25:33 AM
I'm no expert at all, but as far as "big band" Beethoven goes, I have been greatly enjoying the CzPO/Kletzki set recently. The 7th and 8th seem particularly fine to me.

The Kletzki 9 is, as often pointed out, a magnificent rendering as well. Easily in my top 3 of the work.

Harnoncourt/COE is a perennial favourite; two more I've come to value very highly over the years are Abbado's Rome cycle (the one on DVD) and Paavo Järvi/Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie. These are my top 3 at the moment and I do like (sometimes tremendously) many of the other options already mentioned. We're spoilt for choice.

Quote from: Carnivorous Sheep on October 25, 2013, 05:32:33 PM
misses the mark with 3 and 9, and has a forgettable 5.

  I find his 5 unforgettable. Unforgettably weird. Faster tempos are fine, but mine sounds like there was a recording error.  It's like "The Complete Works of Shakespeare in 2 minutes 30 seconds" fast.  33RPM at 45 fast...

   Anyway, these days my favorite is Szell, but I also like Klemperer a lot, Abbado, Walter, Furtwangler.  And Solti.  Apparently nobody but me likes Solti :-[ 

Quote from: Baklavaboy on October 31, 2013, 07:18:45 PM
Apparently nobody but me likes Solti :-[

Quite possible. The first 3rd I bought was his digital recording, which misled me into thinking it wasn't a great piece. I haven't listened to it in a long time, though. It might be interesting to re-listen and check if I like it any better.

I haven't heard any of his others. I will pick up one of his 9ths if I run across a cheap copy.

Quote from: Baklavaboy on October 31, 2013, 07:18:45 PM
  I find his 5 unforgettable. Unforgettably weird. Faster tempos are fine, but mine sounds like there was a recording error.  It's like "The Complete Works of Shakespeare in 2 minutes 30 seconds" fast.  33RPM at 45 fast...

   Anyway, these days my favorite is Szell, but I also like Klemperer a lot, Abbado, Walter, Furtwangler.  And Solti.  Apparently nobody but me likes Solti :-[

Eh, fast Beethoven isn't really a huge novelty, and while Chailly's 5 is on the fast side (like the entire cycle), plenty of other performances have it at comparable speeds. I believe Zinman's, for example, would be faster if he didn't take the third movement repeat, as well as Gardiner's, and I'm fairly certain Immerseel and P. Jarvi's 5ths (on their cycles) are within a few seconds of Chailly's. I could go compare the timings later if I find the time.

I actually really like Solti's 5 :P

Quote from: Carnivorous Sheep on November 01, 2013, 04:43:28 PM
Eh, fast Beethoven isn't really a huge novelty, and while Chailly's 5 is on the fast side (like the entire cycle), plenty of other performances have it at comparable speeds. I believe Zinman's, for example, would be faster if he didn't take the third movement repeat, as well as Gardiner's, and I'm fairly certain Immerseel and P. Jarvi's 5ths (on their cycles) are within a few seconds of Chailly's. I could go compare the timings later if I find the time.

I actually really like Solti's 5 :P

  I just checked my Gardiner and  you are right, 8 seconds faster, and I really like the Gardiner.  Went back and listened to the Chailly again, and although not quite as fast as I remembered it, it still seems rushed to me. Even the initial "Du-Du-Da-Dum"s don't come to a full stop at the end of the phrase.  There is not even a hint of a pause before the next round comes in, like he just can't wait to get through it as fast as possible, and maybe win a prize for speed or something (or meet his meth dealer >:D).   I just read that he's going to be replacing Barenboim at the helm of one of the great philharmonics, so clearly I'm not much of a judge.  I played his 3 for comparison, and found it pleasantly bracing--although still faster-feeling than I would prefer. 

Quote from: Baklavaboy on November 03, 2013, 05:27:12 AM
  I just checked my Gardiner and  you are right, 8 seconds faster, and I really like the Gardiner.  Went back and listened to the Chailly again, and although not quite as fast as I remembered it, it still seems rushed to me.

I haven't heard the Chailly, but there is definitely a difference between fast and rushed.

Quote from: Kreutzer on June 24, 2013, 03:38:04 PM
Way back in 1960 Everest released its Beethoven set with Joseph Krips and the London Symphony.   I bought the set mostly because it was the least expensive available, and I didn't have a lot of money for such things.  Since then I bought CDs by Karajan and some Klemper recordings.  When the Everest set was re-released on CD, I snapped it up because I no longer had a vinyl collection (or a turntable).  The Krips/London Symphony re-issue on CD has pleasant if not cutting-edge sonics.  The performances are pure nostalgia for me.  The CDs may no longer be available, but I think MP3 downloads are still available,  at very cheap prices.

That was my first set too!  A workmanlike if not transcendent set, and at least you can hear all the parts; the woodwinds aren't buried in the sound as in many other recordings.

I'm not a huge fan of Beethoven's symphonies but a cycle that always struck a chord with was Klemperer's set on EMI. Such brooding performances.

Quote from: Mirror Image on November 08, 2013, 07:23:45 PM
I'm not a huge fan of Beethoven's symphonies but a cycle that always struck a chord with was Klemperer's set on EMI. Such brooding performances.

+1 on the Klemperer. I'm reading his bio now, and playing the symphonies some.  His sound seems to grow and swell, and it keeps getting bigger and bigger...like a geological event, like a new mountain range forming in front of you. 

Quote from: Wanderer on October 29, 2013, 04:23:55 PMWe're spoilt for choice.

That's it.

Started actually listening to the Chailly, and rescind my earlier criticism.  I still don't get his five, but I am out of place to criticize his...anything.  It is completely possible that his solid bodily wastes smell like essence of rose petals...

I confess, I have my doubts.

Quote from: karlhenning on November 13, 2013, 04:36:19 AM
I confess, I have my doubts.

There's only one way to find out.

Not my station.

Scots John said:

This recent Thielmann set hasn't had a mention.  I'm buying it now, based on some downloaded live recordings of Thielmann doing Beethoven with the VPO.  I really do like the sound of his Beethoven.  Anyone else?

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81zk50ZU5kL._SL500_.jpg)

Quote from: George on November 13, 2013, 01:22:42 PM
Fixed.

:)  Thanks for that George.  I have removed the MASSIVE picture of the cover now.

HELLOOOOOOOO!!!   Anyone there?????  This post has been hoping for an answer...

This recent Thielmann set hasn't had a mention.  I'm buying it now, based on some downloaded live recordings of Thielmann doing Beethoven with the VPO.  I really do like the sound of his Beethoven.  Anyone else?  Comments?  Anything?  I still haven't bought it yet as I would like to hear the trusted opinions of GMGers who have it or have heard it. 

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81zk50ZU5kL._SL500_.jpg)

Quote from: Scots John on November 14, 2013, 07:16:32 PM
HELLOOOOOOOO!!!   Anyone there?????  This post has been hoping for an answer...

This recent Thielmann set hasn't had a mention.  I'm buying it now, based on some downloaded live recordings of Thielmann doing Beethoven with the VPO.  I really do like the sound of his Beethoven.  Anyone else?  Comments?  Anything?  I still haven't bought it yet as I would like to hear the trusted opinions of GMGers who have it or have heard it. 

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81zk50ZU5kL._SL500_.jpg)

Oh, if you haven't gotten it (I thought you had, and so refrained.  But if you haven't....) IMO, it's a set that can be safely skipped.  Possibly I listened to it in too close proximity to the Chailly set, but the Chailly (and Paavo Jarvi's cycle) seemed superior to my ears.     If you want to direct your attention to a cycle in the making,  Michael Tilson Thomas/San Francisco Orchestra is in the process of issuing a cycle one CD at a time.  The Second Symphony just came out.

Quote from: Scots John on November 14, 2013, 07:16:32 PM
HELLOOOOOOOO!!!   Anyone there?????  This post has been hoping for an answer...

This recent Thielmann set hasn't had a mention.  I'm buying it now, based on some downloaded live recordings of Thielmann doing Beethoven with the VPO.  I really do like the sound of his Beethoven.  Anyone else?  Comments?  Anything?  I still haven't bought it yet as I would like to hear the trusted opinions of GMGers who have it or have heard it. 

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81zk50ZU5kL._SL500_.jpg)

If these are the same performances as those in his Blu-ray cycle, I'd say that they're good, but not essential. Powerful and hefty, but with a tendency to unwarranted heavy-handedness, as if an oppressive weight constantly looms over pace and proceedings.

For those who can compare Thielemann with Barenboim, how is that comparison? I have Barenboim, another slower, "heavier" big-orchestra reading, but I love it, whereas the clips of Thielemann that Jens posted left me cold.

 :(
Many thanks folks, what a shame, I had some high hopes for it because the Beethoven I have heard from him was well crafted and near Mengelberg-like in creative touch.  I'm still considering it though - and for sure I'll check out MTT's SFSO set as it reveals itself.   :D

Quote from: Brian on November 15, 2013, 04:37:10 AM
I have Barenboim, another slower, "heavier" big-orchestra reading, but I love it,

Me too!!

Quote from: Brian on November 15, 2013, 04:37:10 AM
For those who can compare Thielemann with Barenboim, how is that comparison? I have Barenboim, another slower, "heavier" big-orchestra reading, but I love it, whereas the clips of Thielemann that Jens posted left me cold.

I'd favor Barenboim, but not enough to suggest anyone run out and get it. Barenboim's approach seemed a little fresher to me.   That applies to both the older Barenboim-in-a-fedora set and the Beethoven for All cycle.

But I think I need to give Thielemann another audition.  I did listen to it close in time to listening to Chailly, and it inevitably suffered by the comparison.  Plus I was put off by the marketing somewhat, which seemed to think the best way to motivate buyers was with the "look! look! Important conductor leading world famous orchestra!" angle.

Another, more tangential negative, is that it had a somewhat higher price point because of the somewhat luxe packaging and the included DVD.

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 15, 2013, 05:51:15 AMI was put off by the marketing somewhat, which seemed to think the best way to motivate buyers was with the "look! look! Important conductor leading world famous orchestra!" angle.

Well to me that is a very good selling point! The marketing aspect that bothers me was that they advertised it as something like "THE Beethoven cycle for the 21st century!" Sorry, but you're at best the 14th or 15th cycle so far this century.

Quote from: Brian on November 15, 2013, 02:52:38 PM
Well to me that is a very good selling point! The marketing aspect that bothers me was that they advertised it as something like "THE Beethoven cycle for the 21st century!" Sorry, but you're at best the 14th or 15th cycle so far this century.

I'm curious, Brian: Have you listened to the cycle conducted by Jan Willem de Vriend?

I think it's a good mixture of several traits that you enjoy. I started with his Ninth. Just in case: It's available on the NML. 

:)

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 15, 2013, 05:51:15 AM
I'd favor Barenboim, but not enough to suggest anyone run out and get it. Barenboim's approach seemed a little fresher to me.   That applies to both the older Barenboim-in-a-fedora set and the Beethoven for All cycle.

I feel the same way. Which is not to say that I think Barenboim is notably more special generally speaking, rather than he does manage to sound "fresher" in comparison. Thielemann sounds like very heavy old-school in his otherwise good (and insightful) renditions.

i recently saw thielemann and pollini doing the brahms PC1 on youtube and the orchestral direction totally bowled me over!

will check out his beethoven and report later...

I wasn't too impressed with Thielemann's Beethoven. I listened to a few symphonies when it came out (3, 5, 7) and while there were parts that were very refined and beautiful, overall I found the performances fairly bland.

This thread caused me to go on yet another Beethoven symphony cycle listening binge.  I own and enjoy Walter/Col SO, Klemperer, Szell, Bernstein NY, HvK '63, HvK '77, Bohm/VPO, Gardiner, Norrington/LCP, Mackerras/SCO, Jarvi, and Immerseel.

But my number one choice remains Harnoncourt.

Quote from: NJ Joe on December 12, 2013, 06:26:28 PM
This thread caused me to go on yet another Beethoven symphony cycle listening binge.  I own and enjoy Walter/Col SO, Klemperer, Szell, Bernstein NY, HvK '63, HvK '77, Bohm/VPO, Gardiner, Norrington/LCP, Mackerras/SCO, Jarvi, and Immerseel.

But my number one choice remains Harnoncourt.

+1  :)

I've been listening to the 1958 (Not 1951) Scherchen Eroica, recorded for Westminster, and find it thrilling.  I'm an Eroica nut, but right now (and it might be partly "the thrill of the new") it is my favorite.  Anyone familiar with it? '

Addendum: I've since been listening to 2,4, and 8th, and am finding it the most exhilarating LvB I've encountered.  HIP tempos, but a strangely light and playful attitude in the playing.  The sinew is there, but bouncy instead of weighty.  These versions seem full of love, but devoid of reverence.

Quote from: Baklavaboy on January 16, 2014, 06:46:43 AM
I've been listening to the 1958 (Not 1951) Scherchen Eroica, recorded for Westminster, and find it thrilling.  I'm an Eroica nut, but right now (and it might be partly "the thrill of the new") it is my favorite.  Anyone familiar with it? '

Addendum: I've since been listening to 2,4, and 8th, and am finding it the most exhilarating LvB I've encountered.  HIP tempos, but a strangely light and playful attitude in the playing.  The sinew is there, but bouncy instead of weighty.  These versions seem full of love, but devoid of reverence.

You have great taste, this is clearly one of the best Eroicas out there. And Scherchen's Beethoven is great indeed, but this stereo Eroica is absolutely unforgettable, my favourite with Mengelberg's (Amsterdam 1940) and Furtwängler's (12/1944).

To answer to the main topic, I get less and less satisfied by cycles. All of them have flaws, and the better cycles are generally quite consensual and I always favour other interpretations of each of the symphonies. If I had to recommend a cycle to someone who doesn't have one, I would say Karajan 63, and Harnoncourt (overrated at first, his cycle is now incredibly underrated). Then, the live Mengelberg 1940, because he only fails in the 8th and 9th, and is very strong where others are generally forgettable (the best 4th ever). Scherchen comes a little behind, with Cluytens and Blomstedt also.

Quote from: Cosi bel do on February 09, 2014, 04:09:09 PM
You have great taste, this is clearly one of the best Eroicas out there. And Scherchen's Beethoven is great indeed, but this stereo Eroica is absolutely unforgettable, my favourite with Mengelberg's (Amsterdam 1940) and Furtwängler's (12/1944).

To answer to the main topic, I get less and less satisfied by cycles. All of them have flaws, and the better cycles are generally quite consensual and I always favour other interpretations of each of the symphonies. If I had to recommend a cycle to someone who doesn't have one, I would say Karajan 63, and Harnoncourt (overrated at first, his cycle is now incredibly underrated). Then, the live Mengelberg 1940, because he only fails in the 8th and 9th, and is very strong where others are generally forgettable (the best 4th ever). Scherchen comes a little behind, with Cluytens and Blomstedt also.

"only fails in the 8th and 9th" is a pretty big flaw for me.
Actually,  I don't even consider cycles recorded before the 1950s--whatever artistic merit the performances might have is swallowed up, in my ears, by the sonics.  The only set I have from before then is Toscanini, bought in the early days of CD collecting.

Having very recently acquired Karajan's last (1980s) cycle,  I think I prefer it to most others, including his 1963 set.   My chief other MI preference is Chailly.   I'd call Cluytens and Blomstedt solid, but I prefer several others, including Bohm, Bernstein and Barenboim,  to them.

This morning I purchased the Haitink LSO set on impulse, in spite of listening to samples for a few days and not being too impressed. Dunno why, it's not like I need another Beethoven set. But I listened to 3, 5, 1, and 6 in that order, and was thoroughly satisfied.  I did not find them to be at all bland or middle-of-the-road as reviewers on the interweb have suggested.  To the contrary, they sparkled with life. Good tempos, maybe a little rushed in the 2nd and 4th movement of the 5th, but I adapted. Excellent sound.  Looking forward to hearing the rest tomorrow and glad I made the purchase. Oh, and I also ordered the Abbado "red box" too.  :-[

Quote from: NJ Joe on February 09, 2014, 06:33:16 PM
This morning I purchased the Haitink LSO set on impulse, in spite of listening to samples for a few days and not being too impressed. Dunno why, it's not like I need another Beethoven set. But I listened to 3, 5, 1, and 6 in that order, and was thoroughly satisfied.  I did not find them to be at all bland or middle-of-the-road as reviewers on the interweb have suggested.  To the contrary, they sparkled with life. Good tempos, maybe a little rushed in the 2nd and 4th movement of the 5th, but I adapted. Excellent sound.  Looking forward to hearing the rest tomorrow and glad I made the purchase. Oh, and I also ordered the Abbado "red box" too.  :-[

Haitink's #3 is pretty good, but the best is yet to come for you, as I found him very strong in 2, 4, 6, and 8, with his 8 being one of my favorites. Abbado Red is one of my top full cycle choices, particularly 7-9.

I recently sampled a few Jaap van Zweden recordings and was not inspired. Can anybody point me to highlights of his set? Is the sound quality consistently fairly blah?

Just listening to Mackerras/Scottish #2, one of my favorite Seconds, on my fancy headphones. 8:48-49 in the first movement there's an electronic jangle in the right channel like somebody got a text message. I guess they are live performances - not that you'd know from the great playing!

Quote from: Brian on February 09, 2014, 07:13:16 PM
Haitink's #3 is pretty good, but the best is yet to come for you, as I found him very strong in 2, 4, 6, and 8, with his 8 being one of my favorites.

I find the highlights of Haitink/LSO to be 4, 5, 7 and 8, but all the performances are at least good.

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 09, 2014, 06:18:10 PM
"only fails in the 8th and 9th" is a pretty big flaw for me.
Actually,  I don't even consider cycles recorded before the 1950s--whatever artistic merit the performances might have is swallowed up, in my ears, by the sonics.  The only set I have from before then is Toscanini, bought in the early days of CD collecting.

Having very recently acquired Karajan's last (1980s) cycle,  I think I prefer it to most others, including his 1963 set.   My chief other MI preference is Chailly.   I'd call Cluytens and Blomstedt solid, but I prefer several others, including Bohm, Bernstein and Barenboim,  to them.

When I said "fails" it meant "fails to be the best", or among the best, not fails entirely.

And by the way, this cycle, in the recent Mengelberg Decca set, is absolutely sonically astounding. Yes it is mono, and live, but it has more details and life than many stereo and numeric recordings.
The same goes for the Scherchen 1958 Eroica, which is one of the best stereo recordings I know.
I haven't listened to Chailly. I heard his 9th in concert, it was so awful I don't even wish to try :(

My number one pick overall considering price, sound quality and performance is Zinman.

Close contenders are Cluytens, Blomstedt, Karajan 63, Gardiner.

Happily all of these are available in budget boxes.

Had Cantelli lived longer ...

Quote from: Cosi bel do on February 10, 2014, 12:50:39 AM
When I said "fails" it meant "fails to be the best", or among the best, not fails entirely.

And by the way, this cycle, in the recent Mengelberg Decca set, is absolutely sonically astounding. Yes it is mono, and live, but it has more details and life than many stereo and numeric recordings.
The same goes for the Scherchen 1958 Eroica, which is one of the best stereo recordings I know.
I haven't listened to Chailly. I heard his 9th in concert, it was so awful I don't even wish to try :(

I'll keep those in mind.

I'd urge you to investigate Chailly further: he gets things out of the music a lot of other conductors don't, in terms of emotional heft, especially in the middle symphonies (something, btw, he fails to do with his recent Brahms set).  The Ninth was not the strongest part of the cycle,  but I certainly wouldn't call it awful.

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on February 10, 2014, 08:14:26 AM
I'll keep those in mind.

I'd urge you to investigate Chailly further: he gets things out of the music a lot of other conductors don't, in terms of emotional heft, especially in the middle symphonies (something, btw, he fails to do with his recent Brahms set).  The Ninth was not the strongest part of the cycle,  but I certainly wouldn't call it awful.

Well I can assure you that this concert was. It was like a routine 9th, except with a Gewandhaus orchestra sounding unusually thin, and the only interpretative ideas were thrown around, without any sense, any architecture. The finale was even more horrible, the singers (the same than in the CD if I remember well) really not good and the choir (which was Radio-France for the concert in Paris) unbearably loud and massive, without any clarity. A nightmare.

Quote from: Ken B on February 10, 2014, 07:50:29 AM
My number one pick overall considering price, sound quality and performance is Zinman.

Close contenders are Cluytens, Blomstedt, Karajan 63, Gardiner.

Happily all of these are available in budget boxes.

Had Cantelli lived longer ...

I would agree on Cluytens, Blomstedt, Karajan, and even Gardiner (excellent btw, just not top-of-the-list but that's just a personal opinion).

But Zinman ? SERIOUSLY ? ZINMAN ? I never understood what people could like in his Beethoven. There is no structure, no tension (something that a Gardiner doesn't lack at least !), and it is full of mannerisms that are just anti-Beethovenian. I still laugh thinking about this jazzy oboe solo in the 5th, really, that day, I swore I would never buy a Zinman CD anymore (well, of course I did, but my opinion did not change about his Beethoven, his Missa Solemnis is just as bad).

Quote from: Cosi bel do on February 10, 2014, 10:13:07 AMI still laugh thinking about this jazzy oboe solo in the 5th

Interesting, the flute and oboe also do lots of improvised solos in Zinman's new recording of Schubert "Great" C Major. Not jazzy, though.

Quote from: Brian on February 10, 2014, 10:55:49 AM
Interesting, the flute and oboe also do lots of improvised solos in Zinman's new recording of Schubert "Great" C Major. Not jazzy, though.

Well, what I really mean is that these solos are just a fantasy of Mr. Zinman, and are really, really out of style. And what irritates me is that serious HIP musicians (Harnoncourt, Gardiner, but even Norrington is serious, even if the result was not very good) have taken decades of serious work to demonstrate that it is possible to play Beethoven as he intended, without this being a obscure attempt contrary to a kind of darwinian theory of music. And then comes a Zinman, and he does just whatever he thought about in the morning when dipping his croissant in his tea, and he gives all the arguments the anti-HIP movement needed by giving an adulterated vision of Beethoven, contrary to all musical sense.

IMHO, etc., etc.

Its been a while since I listened to 5 in any recording but Zinman uses the new Del Mar edition, and there are changes in places. I'll drag it out soon.

And I second Baklavaboy on Solti's 5, which I have not heard in ages but liked a lot.

BTW, The Tafelmusik 6 is both gorgeous and unsatisfying. Very odd reading, slow slow, but incredibly beautiful playing.

Quote from: Ken B on February 10, 2014, 11:56:58 AM
Its been a while since I listened to 5 in any recording but Zinman uses the new Del Mar edition, and there are changes in places. I'll drag it out soon.

Gardiner and Abbado also use Del Mar.

Quote from: Cosi bel do on February 10, 2014, 10:13:07 AM

I would agree on Cluytens, Blomstedt, Karajan, and even Gardiner (excellent btw, just not top-of-the-list but that's just a personal opinion).

But Zinman ? SERIOUSLY ? ZINMAN ? I never understood what people could like in his Beethoven. There is no structure, no tension (something that a Gardiner doesn't lack at least !), and it is full of mannerisms that are just anti-Beethovenian. I still laugh thinking about this jazzy oboe solo in the 5th, really, that day, I swore I would never buy a Zinman CD anymore (well, of course I did, but my opinion did not change about his Beethoven, his Missa Solemnis is just as bad).

I agree with you about Zinman. His only recording I can stand is Gorecki's  3rd Symphony. His Beethoven and Schumann, which so many listeners and critics rated highly, for me are just  a sight reading with full speed, no tension, no nuanced.

Yes, you're right about his Schumann, too. I once did a comparison on the 4th, and Zinman arrived last of 20 versions. And I'm sure he would have been even if there had been 50 more.

I agree with the oboe solo in the 5th being extremely jarring and out of place.

Overall, however, I find myself enjoying Zinman. In the end, I think there's something to be said about exploring new styles of Beethoven, and as someone who simply enjoys these works immensely, I like hearing new ways of interpreting them.

I wouldn't put any of Zinman's readings on any top or best-of lists, but I find them enjoyable to listen to now and then, and they're sometimes exciting or vibrant in a way that's unconventional enough to be fresh. There are over-ambitious moments, like the aforementioned oboe solo, but it's a trade-off I guess.

Slightly tangential but I think Zinman's Schubert 4th is among my favorite recordings of the piece, and I do love that symphony very much.

I bought Zinman when it was first released. I loved 1-4 but couldn't like anything past that, no matter how I tried. I still have the set, but it's in the "graveyard"...a box in my basement. Been there for several years now, along with Abbado 2000, and other assorted discs. Can't bring myself to sell 'em though.

As for Gardiner, it was the 2nd complete set I ever bought, after HvK '77. Bought it when it was first released, not realizing it was a period instrument performance. Love it to this day.

Quote from: Cosi bel do on February 10, 2014, 12:00:10 PM
Gardiner and Abbado also use Del Mar.

Immerseel too.

Quote from: Carnivorous Sheep on February 10, 2014, 03:43:25 PM
I agree with the oboe solo in the 5th being extremely jarring and out of place.

Overall, however, I find myself enjoying Zinman. In the end, I think there's something to be said about exploring new styles of Beethoven, and as someone who simply enjoys these works immensely, I like hearing new ways of interpreting them.

I wouldn't put any of Zinman's readings on any top or best-of lists, but I find them enjoyable to listen to now and then, and they're sometimes exciting or vibrant in a way that's unconventional enough to be fresh. There are over-ambitious moments, like the aforementioned oboe solo, but it's a trade-off I guess.

Slightly tangential but I think Zinman's Schubert 4th is among my favorite recordings of the piece, and I do love that symphony very much.

  I've never heard Zinman, but I like this attitude.  Sometimes it's nice to hear something out of the pack, even if it's behind or in left field a ways--if for no other reason, when you come back to an A-lister, it may sound fresher or even new again.   I keep playing different versions of the 3rd, and am worried I will get tired of it. I wish there was a version on kazoos, or African drums or something, to "cleanse the palette", as they say with cuisine...

Quote from: Ken B on February 10, 2014, 11:56:58 AM
Its been a while since I listened to 5 in any recording but Zinman uses the new Del Mar edition, and there are changes in places.

Quote from: Cosi bel do on February 10, 2014, 12:00:10 PM
Gardiner and Abbado also use Del Mar.

Quote from: North Star on February 10, 2014, 09:10:35 PM
Immerseel too.

...and Rattle, and Mackerras, and Goodman, and Herreweghe, and Dausgaard, and Haitink, and... well, you get the picture  :)

The Del Mar edition is excellent by virtually all accounts but not without its critics: http://books.google.com/books?id=pQ1PJN_KU9AC&pg=PA188

That writer (David Levy) also published a fuller critique in the journal Beethoven Forum, but as far as I can tell it's not freely available online. There followed a response from Del Mar and a final response from Levy in the same journal, and that exchange is downloadable: http://bf.press.illinois.edu/view.php?vol=10&iss=1&f=del_mar.pdf

Finally, here is a piece on early adopters of Del Mar's edition of the 9th. It includes relevant quotations on the topic from conductors like Gardiner, Mackerras, and Goodman: http://bf.press.illinois.edu/view.php?vol=10&iss=2&f=aspin.pdf

I am irritated that Chailly deliberately chose NOT to use the latest editions.

i gotta say: just heard salonen/LAPO's [live] 3rd, 5th, 7th and 8th and i've never been so uncritical of a beethoven orchestral performance, EVER!

they make my heart and brain flutter with joy equally.

BALANCE!

Quote from: Brian on February 09, 2014, 07:34:50 PM
Just listening to Mackerras/Scottish #2, one of my favorite Seconds, on my fancy headphones. 8:48-49 in the first movement there's an electronic jangle in the right channel like somebody got a text message. I guess they are live performances - not that you'd know from the great playing!

Wow! Thanks for noticing that, Brian.

I'm an enthusiastic noticer of anomalies (I have a text file full of instances of recorded mistakes and oddities in classical music – call me Pedantic Pete), but I didn't spot that one. However, there is a mistake in the Mackerras / Scottish Chamber Orchestra (http://www.amazon.com/Symphonies-Live-From-Edinburgh-Festival/dp/B000TT1QLY) set I did spot. In the fourth movement of the Pastoral (Thunderstorm, CD 3 track 8 ) there's a cracked note from a horn at 0:29 in the right channel. It's the only mistake I've heard in that set.

By the way, that Mackerras set is one of my favourites. It's so full of life.

As for overall favourites, at the moment it's:

• Leibowitz (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Complete-Symphonies-Rene-Leibowitz/dp/B0009TRGKO)
• Immerseel (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphonies-Overtures-Ludwig-van/dp/B0014WSWTY)
• Blomstedt (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Complete-Symphonies-Ludwig-van/dp/B007NCP86E)
• Brüggen I (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-9-Symphonies-Ludwig-van/dp/B00000418Z)*
• Mackerras (http://www.amazon.com/Symphonies-Live-From-Edinburgh-Festival/dp/B000TT1QLY)

That list may change depending on: a) other sets I hear; and b) what kind of Beethoven I'm in the mood for at any given moment.

But if asked to name only one set (which is exactly what this thread asked), it'd be Leibowitz (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Complete-Symphonies-Rene-Leibowitz/dp/B0009TRGKO).

Incidentally, I'm currently listening to the Harnoncourt (http://www.amazon.com/Symphonies-1-9-L-V-Beethoven/dp/B000095IUM) set again (I'm now up to the Eroica). It's been ages since I last heard this set. Although I'm enjoying it one more time, I must admit that I'm liking it a little less than the previous six times I heard it (possibly because I've heard more Beethoven symphony sets since then).

Oh-oh... I just heard a mistake in Harnoncourt's Eroica. In the first movement there's a cracked note from a horn when things get rowdy at 2:00.

And in the time it took me to the type the above, I just heard another mistake. Near the end of the first movement of the Eroica a horn in the left channel plays a nice'n'loud mistake at 15:19.

(*Although I adore Frans Brüggen's conducting – especially in Rameau (http://www.amazon.com/Rameau-Boreades-Dardanus-Suites-Jean-Philippe/dp/B00000E3JD) – his second Beethoven set (http://www.amazon.com/Symphonies-Live-Rotterdam-2011/dp/B009L4J4O4) is a bit too stodgy for me.)

OK, since my last post (see above) I've listened to a few more Beethoven symphony cycles (and revisited a few of the ones I'm already familiar with), and my ever-changing list has changed (again).

I wanted to post a newer version of this perpetually (and pointlessly) updated list because I've now heard the Cluytens set. I think it's wonderful.

The Top 5 is now:

• Cluytens (http://www.amazon.com/Symphonies-1-9-Kerstin-Meyer/dp/B000FOTHC8)
• Leibowitz (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Complete-Symphonies-Rene-Leibowitz/dp/B0009TRGKO)
• Blomstedt (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Complete-Symphonies-Ludwig-van/dp/B007NCP86E)
• Immerseel (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphonies-Overtures-Ludwig-van/dp/B0014WSWTY)
• Mackerras (Scottish Chamber Orchestra) (http://www.amazon.com/Symphonies-Live-From-Edinburgh-Festival/dp/B000TT1QLY)
• Brüggen (1995) (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-9-Symphonies-Ludwig-van/dp/B00000418Z)

By the way, these are the sets I've heard (so far):

• Blomstedt (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Complete-Symphonies-Ludwig-van/dp/B007NCP86E)
• Böhm (http://www.amazon.com/Collectors-Edition-Symphonies-Nos-Overtures/dp/B00E59ZROG)
• Brüggen (1995) (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-9-Symphonies-Ludwig-van/dp/B00000418Z)
• Brüggen (2012) (http://www.amazon.com/The-Symphonies-Live-Rotterdam-2011/dp/B009L4J4O4)
• Chailly (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Gewandhausorchester-Leipzig-Riccardo-Chailly/dp/B0060I0IG2)
• Cluytens (http://www.amazon.com/Symphonies-1-9-Kerstin-Meyer/dp/B000FOTHC8)
• Gardiner (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-The-Symphonies-Ludwig-van/dp/B0033QC0WE)
• Harnoncourt (http://www.amazon.com/Symphonies-1-9-L-V-Beethoven/dp/B000095IUM)
• Immerseel (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphonies-Overtures-Ludwig-van/dp/B0014WSWTY)
• Järvi (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Complete-Symphonies/dp/B00E7FSN2Q)
• Karajan (1963) (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-9-Symphonies-Ludwig-van/dp/B000001GBQ)
• Krivine (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Complete-Symphonies-Emmanuel-Krivine/dp/B004MSCUX6)
• Leibowitz (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Complete-Symphonies-Rene-Leibowitz/dp/B0009TRGKO)
• Mackerras (2007) (http://www.amazon.com/Symphonies-Live-From-Edinburgh-Festival/dp/B000TT1QLY)
• Muti (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Complete-Symphonies-Ludwig-van/dp/B0052RUZ2O)
• Vänskä (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-The-Symphonies-Ludwig-van/dp/B002M2JLPY)
• Wand (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphonies-Nos-G%C3%BCnter-Edition/dp/B00005QHV5)
• Zinman (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Nine-Symphonies-Ludwig-van/dp/B00000IFP6)

I fully intend to listen to every set ever released.

Can you say what you liked about the Cluytens, PPP?

Quote from: George on September 19, 2014, 04:52:31 PM
Can you say what you liked about the Cluytens, PPP?

It s one of my favourites too. It's big Beethoven, big big. Beethoven storms heaven kicking butt and taking names. Out of favour these days but very effective.

Quote from: George on September 19, 2014, 04:52:31 PM
Can you say what you liked about the Cluytens (http://www.amazon.com/Symphonies-1-9-Kerstin-Meyer/dp/B000FOTHC8/), PPP?

Well, I can certainly give it a go.

I'll just mention a few things that stand out for me without going into specifics. (I can if you want, but that would make this post horrendously long. This Amazon.com review (http://www.amazon.com/review/RXKR5NQHUV1PS) is much more comprehensive than anything I could come up with.)

Cluytens' is big-band Beethoven, but there's nothing turgid, or lumbering, or imposing about it.

In pacing the symphonies the way he does, Cluytens allows the music to breathe. Unlike most of the newer, period-influenced cycles, in which it seems to be a race to the finish ("Ha ha! My version's faster than yours!"), Cluytens gives you time to hear all the details. But he doesn't linger.

What sets this cycle apart from others is that he does what he does so musically. With Cluytens, there's a lightness to it – all of it.

Speaking of all of it, I found the consistency of this set surprising. It isn't a cycle of the symphonies in which you'd say, "Oh, this set is great except for...".

I love the instrumental balance throughout. Cluytens doesn't highlight one section of the orchestra to the detriment of the others (e.g., the strings overpowering everything else).

I also like the recording quality. It's nowhere near as great as what can be achieved nowadays, but I think the sound is as good as you can get for recordings from 1957-1960. I actually think the recording quality suits the temperament of the music.

I must admit that I'm impressed by the technical accomplishments of the more recent sets (e.g., Järvi (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphonies-Nos-3-8/dp/B000ROALF8), Vänskä (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Symphonies-Ludwig-van/dp/B002M2JLPY), Chailly (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Gewandhausorchester-Leipzig-Riccardo-Chailly/dp/B0060I0IG2), Zinman (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Nine-Symphonies-Ludwig-van/dp/B00000IFP6) et al) – but "impressed by" is not the same as "live with".

Up until I heard the Cluytens, Leibowitz's cycle (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-Complete-Symphonies-Rene-Leibowitz/dp/B0009TRGKO) was my favourite. There's something special about Leibowitz's approach to the symphonies. But this set from Cluytens is even more special.

Oh, and Cluytens' 9th was the first version to make me cry.

By the way, the release I have is from 2006 (http://www.amazon.com/Symphonies-1-9-Kerstin-Meyer/dp/B000FOTHC8) – this one:

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/71H3TXWlVsL._SL1500_.jpg)

It was re-released in 2013 (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-9-Symphonies-L-V/dp/B0040UEI8G):

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/81qEJJEdnXL._SL1500_.jpg)

Now, if you want to hear what I've been talking about, you can thanks to the wonders of YouTube:

• André Cluytens conducts Beethoven (http://youtu.be/kZqMUdrmoZM?list=PLIFicuBowCuc2WB5CA3c7bLfrG8FKvMgE)

Or the works individually:

• Symphony No. 1 in C major, Op. 21 (http://youtu.be/kZqMUdrmoZM)
• Symphony No. 2 in D major, Op. 36 (http://youtu.be/T0ojytLxqwE)
• Symphony No. 3 in E flat major, Op. 55 "Eroica" (http://youtu.be/PnNJI-oUz6k)
• Symphony No. 4 in B flat major, Op. 60 (http://youtu.be/S_zxPCRjlZQ)
• Symphony No. 5 in C minor, Op. 67 (http://youtu.be/kBqvs7xdiKg)
• Symphony No. 6 in F major, Op. 68 "Pastoral" (http://youtu.be/0QJ3Ub6E4bc)
• Symphony No. 7 in A major, Op. 92 (http://youtu.be/FY5pYMdhG_w)
• Symphony No. 8 in F major, Op. 93 (http://youtu.be/SQ0rheInK30)
• Symphony No. 9 in D minor, Op. 125 "Choral" (http://youtu.be/LBTAx07c8X8)
• Overture, "The Creatures of Prometheus", Op. 43 (http://youtu.be/rkq8VJo4nuM)
• Overture, "Fidelio" Op. 72b (http://youtu.be/8efLptiub0g)
• Overture, "Egmont" Op. 84 (http://youtu.be/9xkIgKwzwMM)

(A huge thanks to YouTube user, "On the Top of Damavand (https://www.youtube.com/user/PhilippeLoTheEternal/)", for posting those.)

Thanks, PPP!

Quote from: George on September 20, 2014, 03:02:36 AM
Thanks, PPP!

No problem, George. I can go into a bit more detail if you want, because I'm about to listen to that Cluytens set (http://www.amazon.com/Symphonies-1-9-Kerstin-Meyer/dp/B000FOTHC8) again. (I can't stay away from it.) But first I need to wait until I've finished listening to the disappointing set by Muti (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0052RUZ2O). (The performances are so... ordinary.)

Light-bulb Moment: It's occurred to me that I don't have to type another thing about the Cluytens set. It's all there in the music.

All the symphonies in a playlist:

http://www.youtube.com/v/kZqMUdrmoZM?list=PLIFicuBowCuc2WB5CA3c7bLfrG8FKvMgE


Or the individual works:

Symphony No. 1 in C major, Op. 21
http://www.youtube.com/v/kZqMUdrmoZM


Symphony No. 2 in D major, Op. 36
http://www.youtube.com/v/T0ojytLxqwE


Symphony No. 3 in E flat major, Op. 55 "Eroica"
http://www.youtube.com/v/PnNJI-oUz6k


Symphony No. 4 in B flat major, Op. 60
http://www.youtube.com/v/S_zxPCRjlZQ


Symphony No. 5 in C minor, Op. 67
http://www.youtube.com/v/kBqvs7xdiKg


Symphony No. 6 in F major, Op. 68 "Pastoral"
http://www.youtube.com/v/0QJ3Ub6E4bc


Symphony No. 7 in A major, Op. 92
http://www.youtube.com/v/FY5pYMdhG_w


Symphony No. 8 in F major, Op. 93
http://www.youtube.com/v/SQ0rheInK30


Symphony No. 9 in D minor, Op. 125 "Choral"
http://www.youtube.com/v/LBTAx07c8X8


Overture, "The Creatures of Prometheus", Op. 43
http://www.youtube.com/v/rkq8VJo4nuM


Overture, "Fidelio", Op. 72b
http://www.youtube.com/v/8efLptiub0g


Overture, "Egmont", Op. 84
http://www.youtube.com/v/9xkIgKwzwMM

Quote from: Ken B on September 19, 2014, 06:35:11 PM
It s one of my favourites too. It's big Beethoven, big big. Beethoven storms heaven kicking butt and taking names. Out of favour these days but very effective.

This is my cup of tea too! Aces!

(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51mq5IWOMxL._SY450_.jpg)

I am absolutely in love with this right now; the remastered 1977 set.  The vinyl was the first complete set I ever owned, and it has always stayed with me.
The sound of these blazing performances has never been better.  The 4th movement of the 7th symphony knocked my socks off today.

Top 5:

Norrington/LCP
Szell/Cleveland
Klemperer/Philharmonia
Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin
Böhm/Vienna


Sarge

I very recently listened to the late Giulini cycle, recorded by Sony. Symphonies 1-8 with the Orchestra Filarmonica della Scala (an "all star" Italian orchestra with many musicians from La Scala + leaders and soloists from other orchestras, a formula that may have inspired Abbado's late frenzy of new orchestras), symphony 9 (recorded first actually) with Berliner Philharmoniker.

And it's really a boring cycle, the most boring one I know, I think. And a great frustration because there are some positive points and I still recommend to hear it because of them :
- Giulini makes this temporary orchestra sound like one of the best, the wind sections really sound like Vienna, and in the later recordings (symphonies 3, 4, 5) there's an excellent density in the strings. Of course there are still very little mistakes (and also Sony did not do a great job in these recordings), but there are excellent Beethoven cycles on really less beautiful orchestras.
- On the first recordings of the cycle (symphonies 1, 2, 7, 8) the wide tempo gives a very dull result, but in symphonies 3 or even more 4, it seems that the musicians really perform what Giulini wants at last, and you can hear Giulini's slow and dense theatrality again, which is a good surprise. Even if, at this tempo, it still lacks tension, impact, violence, contrasts, etc.

My comparison frenzy includes a long-term comparison of all Beethoven cycles I can find. I take my time. Mengelberg's live cycle with the COncertgebouworkest is ahead, for the moment.

Quote from: Discobolus on November 13, 2014, 03:02:46 PM
I very recently listened to the late Giulini cycle, recorded by Sony. Symphonies 1-8 with the Orchestra Filarmonica della Scala (an "all star" Italian orchestra with many musicians from La Scala + leaders and soloists from other orchestras, a formula that may have inspired Abbado's late frenzy of new orchestras), symphony 9 (recorded first actually) with Berliner Philharmoniker.

And it's really a boring cycle, the most boring one I know, I think. ...

Try the Muti.

(Now, I don't want to speak ill of any conductor, especially someone whose conducting I like as much as Riccardo Muti – his Pictures at an Exhibition (http://www.amazon.com/Mussorgsky-Pictures-Exhibition-Stravinsky-Firebird/dp/B00000DNG8) is astonishing – but Ricky's low-voltage way with the Beethoven symphonies (http://www.amazon.com/Beethoven-The-Complete-Symphonies-Nos/dp/B00000C2KJ) is something I don't want to hear again in a hurry.)

Quote from: Discobolus on November 13, 2014, 03:02:46 PM... And a great frustration because there are some positive points and I still recommend to hear it because of them :
- Giulini makes this temporary orchestra sound like one of the best, the wind sections really sound like Vienna, and in the later recordings (symphonies 3, 4, 5) there's an excellent density in the strings. Of course there are still very little mistakes (and also Sony did not do a great job in these recordings), but there are excellent Beethoven cycles on really less beautiful orchestras.
- On the first recordings of the cycle (symphonies 1, 2, 7, 8) the wide tempo gives a very dull result, but in symphonies 3 or even more 4, it seems that the musicians really perform what Giulini wants at last, and you can hear Giulini's slow and dense theatrality again, which is a good surprise. Even if, at this tempo, it still lacks tension, impact, violence, contrasts, etc.

My comparison frenzy includes a long-term comparison of all Beethoven cycles I can find. ...

I hear ya. I'm on a mission to hear every set ever released.

Quote from: Discobolus on November 13, 2014, 03:02:46 PM... I take my time. Mengelberg's live cycle with the Concertgebouworkest is ahead, for the moment.

There's another one I haven't heard.

Quote from: Discobolus on November 13, 2014, 03:02:46 PM
I very recently listened to the late Giulini cycle, recorded by Sony. Symphonies 1-8 with the Orchestra Filarmonica della Scala (an "all star" Italian orchestra with many musicians from La Scala + leaders and soloists from other orchestras, a formula that may have inspired Abbado's late frenzy of new orchestras), symphony 9 (recorded first actually) with Berliner Philharmoniker.

And it's really a boring cycle, the most boring one I know, I think. And a great frustration because there are some positive points and I still recommend to hear it because of them :
- Giulini makes this temporary orchestra sound like one of the best, the wind sections really sound like Vienna, and in the later recordings (symphonies 3, 4, 5) there's an excellent density in the strings. Of course there are still very little mistakes (and also Sony did not do a great job in these recordings), but there are excellent Beethoven cycles on really less beautiful orchestras.
- On the first recordings of the cycle (symphonies 1, 2, 7, 8) the wide tempo gives a very dull result, but in symphonies 3 or even more 4, it seems that the musicians really perform what Giulini wants at last, and you can hear Giulini's slow and dense theatrality again, which is a good surprise. Even if, at this tempo, it still lacks tension, impact, violence, contrasts, etc.

My comparison frenzy includes a long-term comparison of all Beethoven cycles I can find. I take my time. Mengelberg's live cycle with the COncertgebouworkest is ahead, for the moment.

  One of my favorite sets, for the reasons you list above--including the negative ones ("lacks tension, impact, violence, contrasts, etc."). Of course it has those things, but much less than many other versions.  It's gorgeous, sumptuous Beethoven--not a bit dull for me, but I can certainly understand why most feel that it is. 

With the recent acquisition of the Nagano-Montreal set (still in wraps), I count 21 cycles on my shelves. That's probably half a dozen too many,, as they are not all intense or individual enough to make the cut. Among those I return to more often for that individual POV are:

- Böhm WP
- Wyn Morris LSO
- Scherchen VSOO
- Peter Maag
- Schmidt-Issestedt WP
- Karajan BP 1977
- Cluytens BP
- Ansermet SRO

Not to be easily discarded: Ferencsik, KKletzki, Bernstein II, Monteux.

Less than two dozen?  I have at least 30, maybe 35.  I lost track a while ago.
It tells you how crowded this field is when I can say I only have four of the ones you mention.

My favorites in no real order
Karajan 1980s
Bohm WP
Bernstein II
Gardiner
Chailly (my current overall pick)
P.Jarvi

I just finished Bruggen I tonight (although I still have the last two CDs of the set, the VC and Prometheus, to hear).

Quote from: Peter Power Pop on November 13, 2014, 03:38:32 PM
I hear ya. I'm on a mission to hear every set ever released.

Then I'm keen to hear some more of YOUR thoughts on some cycles!

Here are a few that I'm particularly keen about right now (alphabetical by conductor) (not all-time favorites!):
- Abbado/BPO "red box"
- Barenboim
- Chailly
- Cluytens

Barenboim and Chailly are basically opposites, with Cluytens and Abbado in the middle.

Jeffrey, the violin concerto you're soon to hear is one of two Beethoven violin concerto recordings I enjoy hearing. (Isabelle Faust)

The VC is the installment of that set I already have.
Which Barenboim?  I have two from him (the fedora cover on Warner, and the Beethoven For All).  Do not remember either as a standout.

Quote from: Jeffrey Smith on November 13, 2014, 07:10:46 PM
The VC is the installment of that set I already have.
Which Barenboim?  I have two from him (the fedora cover on Warner, and the Beethoven For All).  Do not remember either as a standout.

Oh, definitely fedora/Warner/Berlin. Very slow, very "big", the opposite of what I usually prefer. Except for his Pastoral, which is exactly how I prefer it: as romantic and luscious and pretty as possible.

Quote from: Brian on November 13, 2014, 07:11:55 PM
Oh, definitely fedora/Warner/Berlin. Very slow, very "big", the opposite of what I usually prefer. Except for his Pastoral, which is exactly how I prefer it: as romantic and luscious and pretty as possible.

You must love Bruno Walter's recording, in that case.

My favourites so far are, in no particular order:

Leslie Howard/Hyperion
Yury Martynov/Zig-Zag
Pro Arte Antiqua Praha/OOP (apparently)
Norrington/LCP/Virgin
Dohnányi/Cleveland/Telarc

These are also the only ones I have. >.>

Quote from: Brian on November 13, 2014, 05:44:24 PM
Then I'm keen to hear some more of YOUR thoughts on some cycles!

Here are a few that I'm particularly keen about right now (alphabetical by conductor) (not all-time favorites!):
- Abbado/BPO "red box"
- Barenboim
- Chailly
- Cluytens

Barenboim and Chailly are basically opposites, with Cluytens and Abbado in the middle.

That set by Chailly gives me the heebie-jeebies. It's so unrelentingly fast and unsubtle that when I listened to it my brain went "What???".

I'm guessing that nobody involved in the recording – from the producer on down to the tea fetcher – had the nerve to pipe up and say to The Big Rick, "Excuse me, maestro, but don't you think your interpretations are a little on the, er, bludgeoning side of things?", or even "Aren't you afraid that you'll scare children with what you're doing to these symphonies?"

Admittedly, I've only heard the Chailly cycle once, but man oh man that's one sledgehammer set of the Beethoven symphonies. Was Riccardo hellbent on making this the fastest version ever recorded? ("I'll show them! I'll show them all! Mwuhahahaha!" etc.)

I think I need to listen to that cycle again sometime. The first time went by so fast that when it finished I said to myself, "Is that it?" I'm sure there are things in there that are worth mentioning, but I couldn't keep up with it to find out.

Quote from: Brian on November 13, 2014, 05:44:24 PMJeffrey, the violin concerto you're soon to hear is one of two Beethoven violin concerto recordings I enjoy hearing. (Isabelle Faust)

Quote from: NJ Joe on September 29, 2014, 04:14:51 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51mq5IWOMxL._SY450_.jpg)

I am absolutely in love with this right now; the remastered 1977 set.  The vinyl was the first complete set I ever owned, and it has always stayed with me.
The sound of these blazing performances has never been better.  The 4th movement of the 7th symphony knocked my socks off today.

My favorite, too, though I've not heard the remastered versions. I bought them individually as they were released in the 1980s on DG Galleria. Here's a clickable link to the remasters: [asin]B000WQGPNI[/asin].

Quote from: Peter Power Pop on November 13, 2014, 10:20:28 PMWas Riccardo hellbent on making this the fastest version ever recorded? ("I'll show them! I'll show them all! Mwuhahahaha!" etc.)

Not even close! Dausgaard's Eroica clocks like this:
15:47 (WITH repeat)
12:49
5:22
10:27 WHOA you're right Chailly IS faster!! By a whole 2 minutes overall! Guess I haven't heard his Eroica in a while.

Quote from: amw on November 13, 2014, 07:32:38 PM
Pro Arte Antiqua Praha/OOP (apparently)

The who and the what now? Never heard of this before.

Cycles I own:

Barenboim
Bernstein/ NYPO
Blomstedt
Cluytens
Jochum  (DG)
Jochum  (EMI)
Klemperer
Krips
Schuricht
Szell
Weller


Plus, cycles I've listened to at one time or another:

Karajan 1963
Karajan 1977
Kletzki
Konwitschny
Ormandy
Schmidt-Isserstedt
Toscanini
Walter (Columbia SO, with the NYPO 9th)
Wand

... And no doubt a few others I'm forgetting at the moment.  Not to mention, a gaziliion different recordings of individual symphonies, including many from the aforementioned sets.

Of those complete cycles that I own, the ones I find myself returning to most often these days are Cluytens and Schuricht.  Though of course I wouldn't want to be without Klemperer and Szell.  And, oddly enough, I appreciate Bernstein more now than I did when I was younger.

I really want to like the Barenbom set more than I do, but so far, it only works for me in fits and starts.

And finally... not a complete cycle, but I can't let this one go without at least a mention:

[asin]B00001W09Z[/asin]

Quote from: Brian on November 14, 2014, 08:01:12 AM
The who and the what now? Never heard of this before.

String quintet arrangements of the symphonies and overtures by CF Eberse (1770-1836). I don't know how many of these were recorded, but I have 3, 5, 6, 7 & 8 and they're all good.

Here's the only one I could find on amazon
[asin]B001D8NGBI[/asin]

Chailly's tempi in the Eroica are about the equal of Norrington's (LCP), slightly faster in the finale. For whatever reason this is pretty much the speed that feels 'right' to me—any Eroica openers exceeding about 16' just seem way too slow. This has led to me dismissing many otherwise worthy Eroicas on the grounds of excessive lethargy. I guess I'll be investigating Chailly more thoroughly.

Quote from: Brian on November 13, 2014, 05:44:24 PM
Then I'm keen to hear some more of YOUR thoughts on some cycles!

I'm more than happy to let you know what I think of certain Beethoven symphony cycles, young Brian. You name it, I'll listen to it.

Quote from: Brian on November 13, 2014, 05:44:24 PMHere are a few that I'm particularly keen about right now (alphabetical by conductor) (not all-time favorites!):
- Abbado/BPO "red box"
- Barenboim
- Chailly
- Cluytens

I've commented on the Cluytens (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21417.msg832031.html#msg832031), and in this post (http://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21417.msg847481.html#msg847481) I expressed my dismay at hearing the Chailly set (it bothered me enormously). But if there's anything in particular you want me hear, just say the word. If you're looking for rash and hasty ill-thought-out comments, I'm your man.

Quote from: Brian on November 13, 2014, 05:44:24 PMBarenboim and Chailly are basically opposites, with Cluytens and Abbado in the middle.

Jeffrey, the violin concerto you're soon to hear is one of two Beethoven violin concerto recordings I enjoy hearing. (Isabelle Faust)

I'm anything but a homer, believe me. Yet, I was immensely surprised at finding the Montreal Symphony - Nagano set (ATMA label) so close to greatness. As close to HIP as possible with a full-fledged symphony orchestra. I guess this is along the Vänskä - Minnesota lines (I heard a couple only of those discs). But, dare I say, it's better executed  :D.

Quote from: dimmer on April 23, 2013, 02:23:27 AM
My favorite recent cycle remains Osmo Vänskä. Precision and passion produces riveting results.
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51drfA9snbL._SY300_.jpg)


As someone who grew up on period instrument performances, I wish I liked the Immerseel set more, but it just doesn't catch fire.

After seeing a couple other people recommend this, I had to buy this set.

Quote from: André on November 18, 2014, 05:26:20 PM
I'm anything but a homer, believe me. Yet, I was immensely surprised at finding the Montreal Symphony - Nagano set (ATMA label) so close to greatness. As close to HIP as possible with a full-fledged symphony orchestra. I guess this is along the Vänskä - Minnesota lines (I heard a couple only of those discs). But, dare I say, it's better executed  :D.

André, isn't that set on Analekta?  On ATMA, I find just the 7th, performed in the wind-only version. Merely curious... :)

8)

Yes, it's Analekta ! I often confuse the two labels  ::).

Out of all the ones I've heard, I'd probably say HvK's 60s cycle. For me, it simply doesn't get any better. A runner-up to this cycle would be Szell/Cleveland.

My favourite cycles are the Klemperer Philharmonia (UK Columbia - who did the cycle proud with dignified and distinct LP cover art work) and the Cluytens Berlin set.  I also enjoy listening to Peter Maag (an under-rated conductor). 
For individual movements:
1. the opening movement of the 4th as realized by Barbirolli and the NYPO (1936) - the introduction has an atmosphere more rivetting than any other I know.
2. the finale of the 5th by Furtwangler with the Berlin PO in June 1943.  An extraordinary occasion.
CB

Trying to own a lot of variety,
I've got
Mengelberg,
Toscanini,
Scherchen/Lugano,
Scherchen/Westminster (symphonies 1-8 only)
Bernstein/NYPO,
Karajan/DG 1+2,
Blomstedt,
Leibowitz,
Skrowaczewski,
Gardiner.

I've skipped Karajan/EMI, Konwitschny, Bernstein/VPO.

Until I got Skrowaczewski I would probably lean towards Karajan/DG 1, but it might be Skrowy now. Not sure, though.

Quote from: CB45 on March 08, 2018, 09:48:41 AM
My favourite cycles are the Klemperer Philharmonia (UK Columbia - who did the cycle proud with dignified and distinct LP cover art work) and the Cluytens Berlin set.  I also enjoy listening to Peter Maag (an under-rated conductor). 
For individual movements:
1. the opening movement of the 4th as realized by Barbirolli and the NYPO (1936) - the introduction has an atmosphere more rivetting than any other I know.
2. the finale of the 5th by Furtwangler with the Berlin PO in June 1943.  An extraordinary occasion.
CB

As far as you're concerned, the last 50 years were a wash?

(https://diginsider.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/beethoven0371.jpg?w=660)

Old school, no-nonsense, solid performances in surprisingly very good sound. Konwhisky at his best.

At some point in the last four years my #1 choice for a complete cycle shifted to Krivine/Chambre Philharmonique. And I think I may even prefer Norrington's Stuttgart cycle to his LCP one now.

From the "classic" cycles: Leibowitz/RPO.

Quote from: amw on March 08, 2018, 03:25:53 PM
At some point in the last four years my #1 choice for a complete cycle shifted to Krivine/Chambre Philharmonique. And I think I may even prefer Norrington's Stuttgart cycle to his LCP one now.

From the "classic" cycles: Leibowitz/RPO.

Geez I thought I must have made this post. Haven't yet seen anyone aside from myself make claims such as this.....

And the Leibowitz is great, yes.



I am tempted to do a comparison of recordings and post reviews here or something like then when I have time.........

Although I will say now that my preferences go to Chailly and Zinman.

My least favourites would probably be Thielemann and the last three of Karajan.

One I truly truly wish was a little bit more interesting to me with regards to the treatment of tempo and its relationship to structure and phrasing is Gardiner.

I've considered similar, but even less time.

My ratings of cycles I've heard in full so far are:

Bernstein NY C
Blomstedt Dresden C+
Brüggen Philips B-
Chailly A
Dohnányi A-
Gardiner B+
Herreweghe A
Hogwood A-
Järvi B
Karajan 1963 C
Krivine A+
Leibowitz A+
Norrington LCP A-
Norrington Stuttgart A+

I am evidently somewhat indiscriminate in my taste -.-

Cycles I want to hear in their entirety someday, but whatever, no pressure: Vänskä, Zinman, Jochum LPO, Toscanini (1936?), Blomstedt Leipzig, Harnoncourt, Kletzki, Cluytens, Mackerras, Immerseel, Ormandy, Szell

Cycles I am fine without hearing ever: any other Karajans, the DG Bernstein, Thielemann, Barenboims, Böhm, Maazel, etc

Quote from: Baron Scarpia on March 08, 2018, 10:03:04 AM
As far as you're concerned, the last 50 years were a wash?

If I understand 'wash' correctly (as wash out), the answer is clearly 'no'.  I've enjoyed several cycles, e.g., Zinman and Vanska (although I've not heard the CDs, we were fortunate enough in the UK to hear his thoughts in a cycle with the BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra which was broadcast by the BBC).  I simply pointed to a few cycles that I find bear repeated listening and to a couple of extraordinary individual performances.  Trying to help us all along!

FYI: There's a list of every Beethoven cycle recorded here:
A Survey of Beethoven Symphony Cycles: Alphabetical Index (http://ionarts.blogspot.co.at/2017/10/a-survey-of-beethoven-symphony-cycles.html)

(A more proper presentation will follow, eventually, but it takes time to code.)

Having just re-listened to the Bernstein Vienna cycle, that one's taken a plunge. It now ranks among my least favorite cycles. Too much bloody absurdity.

These are some of my favorites... and they cover, on purpose, about three different general approaches.


Abbado III, Rome (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E4D9/nectarandambr-20)
Barenboim I, Berlin (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00076YOPY/nectarandambr-20)
Chailly, Leipzig (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B005CYLSW8/nectarandambr-20)
Gardiner, ORR (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00SR27UL0/nectarandambr-20)
Harnoncourt, COE (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000095IUM/nectarandambr-20)
P.Jarvi I, Bremen CP (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00E7FSN2Q/nectarandambr-20)
Kletzki, CzPO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004NWHVSA/nectarandambr-20)
Pletnev, RNO (http://a-fwd.to/7bO59or)
Vanska, MO (http://a-fwd.to/31k1AdY)
Wand, NDRSO (http://a-fwd.to/42D0bAA)

but I understand the like for the Karajan 70s cycle, too...

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on May 18, 2018, 01:16:50 AM
FYI: There's a list of every Beethoven cycle recorded here:
A Survey of Beethoven Symphony Cycles: Alphabetical Index (http://ionarts.blogspot.co.at/2017/10/a-survey-of-beethoven-symphony-cycles.html)

(A more proper presentation will follow, eventually, but it takes time to code.)

Having just re-listened to the Bernstein Vienna cycle, that one's taken a plunge. It now ranks among my least favorite cycles. Too much bloody absurdity.

These are some of my favorites... and they cover, on purpose, about three different general approaches.


Abbado III, Rome (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00000E4D9/nectarandambr-20)
Barenboim I, Berlin (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00076YOPY/nectarandambr-20)
Chailly, Leipzig (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B005CYLSW8/nectarandambr-20)
Gardiner, ORR (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00SR27UL0/nectarandambr-20)
Harnoncourt, COE (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000095IUM/nectarandambr-20)
P.Jarvi I, Bremen CP (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00E7FSN2Q/nectarandambr-20)
Kletzki, CzPO (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B004NWHVSA/nectarandambr-20)
Pletnev, RNO (http://a-fwd.to/7bO59or)
Vanska, MO (http://a-fwd.to/31k1AdY)
Wand, NDRSO (http://a-fwd.to/42D0bAA)

but I understand the like for the Karajan 70s cycle, too...

Thanks for your posting and the link to the list of cycles. To my horror I found I had 25 cycles, I used to keep a spreadsheet but have let it lapse. I vowed never to buy another cycle then the Wyn Morris/LSO set emerged from the vaults and I succumbed. Trawling through the list made me realise there are still plenty of potentially fine cycles out there but I will have to give them a miss. It also reminded me of cycles I have sampled and rejected. Additionally I have numerous part-cycles and individual discs.

My head is spinning and I can't even compile a short list though I do think there isn't any one cycle that is recommendable for all nine symphonies.

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on May 18, 2018, 01:16:50 AM

but I understand the like for the Karajan 70s cycle, too...

I can't say that I do. I much prefer his '63 cycle.

If I had 25 LvB cycles (not to speak against such a thing absolutely, but only in my own context) I should be horrified, as well.

Very interesting that you rate the Gardiner/ORR so highly, Jens.  I am not sure that I have heard any of the LvB, which is a little strange, since their Berlioz Symphonie fantastique made such a positive impression when first I heard it.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 18, 2018, 04:53:46 AM
If I had 25 LvB cycles (not to speak against such a thing absolutely, but only in my own context) I should be horrified, as well.

I knew I had a lot but not as many as 25. In mitigation, I bought the first one (Jochum/Concertgebouw) in 1970 and only added 2 more in the LP era. I have accumulated them steadily since ca. 1984 when I started buying CDs. Some were bought out of curiosity and I am unlikely to listen to them again. I could dispose of them but I am reluctant to do so.

Quote from: Biffo on May 18, 2018, 05:57:16 AM
I knew I had a lot but not as many as 25. In mitigation, I bought the first one (Jochum/Concertgebouw) in 1970 and only added 2 more in the LP era. I have accumulated them steadily since ca. 1984 when I started buying CDs. Some were bought out of curiosity and I am unlikely to listen to them again. I could dispose of them but I am reluctant to do so.

Why should you, as long as you have space enough . :)

Quote from: Traverso on May 18, 2018, 07:18:08 AM

Why should you, as long as you have space enough . :)

Thank you for your solidarity! I am sure there are people out there thinking 'Only 25 cycles, barely constitutes a collection'.

The ultra-glossy 1977 Karajan cycle (on LP) should be near the top of the list for disposal but I can't bring myself to get rid of it. If I do I will want to check it out again (or at least part of it) for some reason within a few months.

Quote from: Traverso on May 18, 2018, 07:18:08 AM
Why should you, as long as you have space enough . :)

There you are:  I could not have 25 LvB sets without the spatial element exciting disapproving remark from the woman of my dreams.

0:)

Quote from: Biffo on May 18, 2018, 07:32:10 AM
Thank you for your solidarity! I am sure there are people out there thinking 'Only 25 cycles, barely constitutes a collection'.

The ultra-glossy 1977 Karajan cycle (on LP) should be near the top of the list for disposal but I can't bring myself to get rid of it. If I do I will want to check it out again (or at least part of it) for some reason within a few months.

I find the "1977" cycle (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001DCQI82/nectarandambr-20) to be fascinating on every return, because it's far less glossy to my ears than to my expectations... and it combines a LOT of the surprising spunk of the "1963" cycle (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GBQ/nectarandambr-20) with the ensemble-perfection that would lead to the 'Berlin Wall of Sound'. It is, in its way, the most "Karajan" cycles of them, without suffering from the detriments of the "1980s" cycle (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GKP/nectarandambr-20).

I didn't have any Karajan Beethoven cycle for decades of collecting... one of the many curiosities that collecting brings with it... a refusal to expend money/effort on 'the most obvious' choice? The idea to be different from the standard collector? Coincidence? Guided merely by BMG Record Club editorial policy? Now, that it's far too late in some ways, I have now found myself with all four of the 'mainstream' Karajan cycles. (None of the video ones, though, and not the Tokyo live cycle (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B006H0KYFS/nectarandambr-20), either, though that remains intriguing.

Trimming it down and trying to keep diversity in my Beethoven, I might find these in my top three:


P.Jarvi, Bremen CP (All-Purpose, Swift, Modern, HIP-replacement)
Barenboim, Berlin (Varnish, Orchestral Might, Faux-Furtwangler)
"Joker"  (Something that's sufficiently different and kicks rear in its own way)

The joker currently is Pletnev, RNO, DG (http://a-fwd.to/7bO59or). Next week it might be Dausgaard or Schmidt-Isserstedt or something along those lines... or Gardiner or another really good hip-cycle.

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on May 18, 2018, 10:07:51 AM
I find the "1977" cycle (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001DCQI82/nectarandambr-20) to be fascinating on every return, because it's far less glossy to my ears than to my expectations... and it combines a LOT of the surprising spunk of the "1963" cycle (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GBQ/nectarandambr-20) with the ensemble-perfection that would lead to the 'Berlin Wall of Sound'. It is, in its way, the most "Karajan" cycles of them, without suffering from the detriments of the "1980s" cycle (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GKP/nectarandambr-20).

I got one CD from the Karajan 80's cycle when it first came out and decided it was inferior to the 70's cycle (that was before I heard the 60's cycle). Haven't heard a note of it since then. Maybe I need to revisit (I have it in a box set).

What, specifically, are the "detriments" of the 80's cycle, in your view?

Quote from: Baron Scarpia on May 18, 2018, 10:14:24 AM
I got one CD from the Karajan 80's cycle when it first came out and decided it was inferior to the 70's cycle (that was before I heard the 60's cycle). Haven't heard a note of it since then. Maybe I need to revisit (I have it in a box set).

What, specifically, are the "detriments" of the 80's cycle, in your view?

Pressed to it, I'm actually not prepared to be definitive even about my own reservations, for fear that I've not listened to it sufficiently to overcome dearly-held and stereotypical prejudices.
But for now, I would suggest something along the lines of: The loss of verve at the expense of polish... the aura of self-satisfaction.

My memory (this is remembered from ~1987, mind you) is that I thought the interpretations were more or less the same but that the sound was "too digital." One of the recordings that was too brightly lit because they wanted you to be impressed by how clear it all sounded in a digital recording. Maybe they've dialed that back in the masters they are releasing these days. I listened to a brief clip of the 7th symphony finale and I thought it sounded fine.

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on May 18, 2018, 10:07:51 AM
I find the "1977" cycle (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B001DCQI82/nectarandambr-20) to be fascinating on every return, because it's far less glossy to my ears than to my expectations... and it combines a LOT of the surprising spunk of the "1963" cycle (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GBQ/nectarandambr-20) with the ensemble-perfection that would lead to the 'Berlin Wall of Sound'. It is, in its way, the most "Karajan" cycles of them, without suffering from the detriments of the "1980s" cycle (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000001GKP/nectarandambr-20).

Thanks for explaining. I love the 63 set because of it's raw intensity.

Just listened to Karajan's '82 recording of Beethoven's 7th. General impression is that the interpretation is basically identical to '77, the intensity is there, but I don't like the audio as much. Too dry, a bit shrill, lacking the concert-hall sound stage that I liked in the '77 cycle. And the basses don't have the colossal sound that they did in the '77 cycle.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on May 18, 2018, 07:48:01 AM
There you are:  I could not have 25 LvB sets without the spatial element exciting disapproving remark from the woman of my dreams.

0:)

I own 58 cycles. I do not get disapproving remarks from her. She is clever enough to know how to remain the woman of my dreams.  ;)

Quote from: (: premont :) on May 19, 2018, 02:00:21 AM

I own 58 cycles. I do not get disapproving remarks from her. She is clever enough to know how to remain the woman of my dreams.  ;)

Did she conduct one of those 58?  ;)

Quote from: George on May 19, 2018, 05:23:17 AM
Did she conduct one of those 58?  ;)

No, but she conducts herself in an exemplary way.  :)

Quote from: (: premont :) on May 19, 2018, 05:58:17 AM
No, but she conducts herself in an exemplary way.  :)

Touche!  :)

Back to the basics:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DdkyIoJWsAEkK0J.jpg)

#morninglistening to #Beethoven w/@KarajanMusic & @berlinphil on @dgclassics in THE classic #symphony #LvB cycle from 1963

: http://a-fwd.to/1YX0QjX

2nd of seven cycles he recorded. (http://a-fwd.to/1YX0QjX)

It's been about a decade since I last hear anything from Vanska's cycle. I once had a disc with syms 4 & 5 on it. I never outright disliked the disc, but I never could seem to really find a way into it.

A decade later, the entire cycle is mine.

And I'll never part with it.

Great, "non-digital" sonics help, but on top of that, what I once perceived as "routine" in that disc, I now hear extraordinary insights. What has changed in the intervening decade? Well, obviously I've gotten a decade older!! ;D

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on May 19, 2018, 10:00:08 AM
It's been about a decade since I last hear anything from Vanska's cycle. I once had a disc with syms 4 & 5 on it. I never outright disliked the disc, but I never could seem to really find a way into it.

A decade later, the entire cycle is mine.

And I'll never part with it.

Great, "non-digital" sonics help, but on top of that, what I once perceived as "routine" in that disc, I now hear extraordinary insights. What has changed in the intervening decade? Well, obviously I've gotten a decade older!! ;D

I remember exactly how I got my hands on the disc of Sys 4 & 5. I had drinks with Tim Page at Union Station and he said that the last thing he needed was more Beethoven and if I wanted that disc. I had been looking forward to those recordings as it was, so Yes! And indeed, I think that's one of the best 4ths on record and Vanska's cycle all the way up there... only not on my list because it is fairly similar in style to Paavo Jaervi's, which is also very good.

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on May 19, 2018, 11:26:00 AM
I remember exactly how I got my hands on the disc of Sys 4 & 5. I had drinks with Tim Page at Union Station and he said that the last thing he needed was more Beethoven and if I wanted that disc. I had been looking forward to those recordings as it was, so Yes! And indeed, I think that's one of the best 4ths on record and Vanska's cycle all the way up there... only not on my list because it is fairly similar in style to Paavo Jaervi's, which is also very good.

Cool! :) I had to google Tim Page. Music critic?

Vanska's cycle is very popular it seems. I am not too familiar with it. Because of so many recordings being made of these symphonies so often it is hard to tell which ones are going to be outstanding.........

Quote from: Dancing Divertimentian on May 19, 2018, 09:06:55 PM
Cool! :) I had to google Tim Page. Music critic?

Yes, the one. One of the few genuinely nice and wonderful music critics; a Mensch.
He was at the Post at the time; I think I had just been booted off the stringer list by the Editor.
I was thinking: "Really, he doesn't want that disc? What's wrong with him?"  ;D

In the midst of all the pro and cons of the preferred Karajan/BPO cycles - easy to forget that *other* early 60's BPO cycle from Andre Cluytens.  I've been revisiting this recently and it strikes me as having the best elements of the sheer technical address of the orchestra (plus remarkably good recording for something pushing 60!) plus an unfussy, dynamic and thoroughly enjoyable interpretation from Cluytens.  Can any cycle ever be deemed the No.1 - surely not - but this is worth a visit for sure.

[asin]B0040UEI8G[/asin]

After listening to Karajan recordings of the 7th I also went back to one of his predecessors, Cantelli's 7th. Actually rather similar (not a shock, both were disciples of Toscanini) but Cantelli doesn't quite hit it. The way Karajan shapes the finale, particularly the code, which becomes more and more and more frenzied, building up to higher and higher and higher levels of intensity without any loss of composure or ensemble balance is astonishing.

At some point I have to find Karajan's old mono cycle with the Philharmonia.

The Cluytens cycle is indeed a considerable, consistent, achievement.  The recent Cluytens box contains that cycle together with his earlier reading of the Pastoral, from 1955, and also with the Berlin Philharmonic, which I find a wonderful reading, showing deep engagement with the score.  The HMV LP had a beautiful and dignified sleeve, golden green, with a simple sheaf of wheat in the centre.  That LP was one of the first I was given, alongside Beecham's Philips recording of Mozart's Haffner and Linz symphonies.  Hard to beat!

I have really really enjoyed this recently. This is a great sounding re-mastered edition of live performances, with a really sense of tempo and phrasing that might seem a bit quirky or extreme from a rhythmically rigid modern perspective, but this approach to tempo seems to follow the natural tendencies of Beethoven's harmonic and melodic direction better than some other historical recordings I have heard.

(https://i.scdn.co/image/c75bfa0153f88cbd77901eae6b9861dd38785fcf)

Actually it follows closely the kind of expressive tempo modifications described by Beethoven and his contemporaries over a hundred years before these performances were made.

I am curious if there are any more recent recordings that use historical evidence of phrasing, portamento, articulation and especially tempo that was described by Beethoven and co. in the early 19th century.

Quote from: kishnevi on September 13, 2013, 09:22:22 AM
I think it depends on when the original recording was made.  For me,  almost everything recorded before 1950 (a very approximate date) is too "hissy" to be interesting as anything other than its historical interest.    For whatever reason,  recordings in the '50s (and a couple in the late 40s) seem to have overcome that problem, and while the sonics may seem dull on some of them,  a number of mono recordings from the late 50s actually sound better to me than some early stereo recordings.

My feelings exactly. There were some fantastic sounding recordings in mono made in the 50s like Karajan's Der Rosenkavalier and Capriccio. They sound so good that it almost begs the question why back then anyone would try stereo.

I have lots of good sets.  But in the past few years, lots of HIP and OIP groups have recorded the nine, and each has been hailed by a few as revolutionary and revelatory and the one to get.  To me, though, only one of them has actually fulfilled that promise--the one from Jos van Immerseel and Anima Eterna on the Zig Zag label, distributed by Harmonia Mundi.

Quote from: RebLem on June 13, 2018, 10:43:32 PM
I have lots of good sets.  But in the past few years, lots of HIP and OIP groups have recorded the nine, and each has been hailed by a few as revolutionary and revelatory and the one to get.  To me, though, only one of them has actually fulfilled that promise--the one from Jos van Immerseel and Anima Eterna on the Zig Zag label, distributed by Harmonia Mundi.

What's OIP?

Obbligato instruments périodique? ;)

Quote from: Marc on June 13, 2018, 11:38:05 PM
What's OIP?

Obbligato instruments périodique? ;)

Original instruments practice. That's an established term.  It would probably be better to call it PIP, period imstruments practice, but that's not an established practice.  In other words, playing a piece on instruments of a kind, either actually from the period, or modern faithful reproductions of the same, that would have been used at the premiere performance or at the best sort of performance from that period.

Quote from: RebLem on June 14, 2018, 07:16:39 AM
Original instruments practice. That's an established term.  It would probably be better to call it PIP, period imstruments practice, but that's not an established practice.  In other words, playing a piece on instruments of a kind, either actually from the period, or modern faithful reproductions of the same, that would have been used at the premiere performance or at the best sort of performance from that period.

If it were such an established term, I reckon more of us would have heard of it before. The 8 [sic] google hits also suggest that it's not that established. More importantly, how does it differ from HIP?
As in: Original instruments performance being not just "historically informed" but going further, namely by the use of their instruments... (although that much us usually also implied with"HIP"). Or are you using it interchangeably?

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 14, 2018, 07:21:31 AM
If it were such an established term, I reckon more of us would have heard of it before. The 8 [sic] google hits also suggest that it's not that established. More importantly, how does it differ from HIP?
As in: Original instruments performance being not just "historically informed" but going further, namely by the use of their instruments... (although that much us usually also implied with"HIP"). Or are you using it interchangeably?

The whole thing sounds pretty hokey to me. With all these HIP/PIP/OIP Beethoven out there that differ dramatically in instrument construction and playing style how can there be such a thing as "historically informed"? If one is "informed" does it mean the other guy is not?

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 14, 2018, 07:28:07 AM
The whole thing sounds pretty hokey to me. With all these HIP/PIP/OIP Beethoven out there that differ dramatically in instrument construction and playing style how can there be such a thing as "historically informed"? If one is "informed" does it mean the other guy is not?

That's the whole point. Today's « informed » performance automatically supersedes what precedes it. Or, how to get instant legitimacy ... ;)

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 14, 2018, 07:21:31 AM
If it were such an established term, I reckon more of us would have heard of it before. The 8 [sic] google hits also suggest that it's not that established. More importantly, how does it differ from HIP?
As in: Original instruments performance being not just "historically informed" but going further, namely by the use of their instruments... (although that much us usually also implied with"HIP"). Or are you using it interchangeably?

I am not using the two terms interchangeably.  HIP performances are performances on modern instruments with no attempt to make them look or sound like period instruments.  The "historically informed" part refers not to the instruments themselves, but such things as period instrument tuning and what we know or think we know about period tempos and other aspects of performance practice from whatever time is in question.

Quote from: RebLem on June 14, 2018, 09:10:17 AM
I am not using the two terms interchangeably.  HIP performances are performances on modern instruments with no attempt to make them look or sound like period instruments.  The "historically informed" part refers not to the instruments themselves, but such things as period instrument tuning and what we know or think we know about period tempos and other aspects of performance practice from whatever time is in question.

Oh, then one of us isn't using "HIP" in the conventional sense.

I always use it, quite interchangeably, to denote Original Instrument Performances. I wouldn't, for example, denote Abbado's Rome cycle with the BPH as "HIP", but I would, Gardiner's.
Not that your definition doesn't make sense, hinging on the word "informed". What you describe as HIP, as logical as it sounds, is something I would (cumbersomely) describe as quasi-HIP or hybrid-HIP... (Harnoncourt's cycle with the COE or anything the Klangverwaltung Orchestra does with E.v.Guttenberg or the like.)

If it's worth anything (at least to establish what the convention is), Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historically_informed_performance) agrees with me:

QuotePerformance on period instruments is a key aspect of HIP, such as this baroque orchestra...

P.S. I've rarely heard a modern-instrument, Period-Performance-Inspired ("PPI"? ;D) orchestra tune down. Phrasing and tempo are usually about it, when it comes to adopting the modern -- which is to say: aspirationally historical -- style.

for what its worth I don't know any period ensembles who play with unequal temperament.  There might well be but the reality is to modern ears an ensemble (not just a keyboard alone) playing that way will sound out of tune and also for the players themselves it is all but impossible to play accurately but unequally.

Quote from: Roasted Swan on June 15, 2018, 03:07:52 AM
for what its worth I don't know any period ensembles who play with unequal temperament.  There might well be but the reality is to modern ears an ensemble (not just a keyboard alone) playing that way will sound out of tune and also for the players themselves it is all but impossible to play accurately but unequally.

So you think, that ensembles always played in equal tuning, earlier as well as now??

Not sure how you can get the winds to play in a particular temperament as they are not as easily tunable as strings and piano. My feeling is you don't see recordings of Beethoven symphonies in unequal temperament because someone tried it, find that it sounds pretty awful, and ditched the idea before they bankrupt themselves.

Modern wind instruments aren't equal tempered because true equal temperament is impossible except on keyboard instruments. Generally they have compromise tunings: sacrificing the thirds for pure octaves (eg flutes) or sacrificing the octaves for pure fifths (eg clarinets). Adjustments always have to be made with embouchure & sometimes fiddling with the instrument to get it in tune. Horns & trumpets & tubas also require constant embouchure adjustment because they are "naturally" in pythagorean just intonation. Trombones, obviously, can do whatever, since they have slides.

Every recording of Beethoven symphonies uses unequal temperament, except for the ones recorded on a piano. Players attempt to stick relatively close to equal temperament, so that it's possible to do all the modulations and chromaticism Beethoven called for, but don't attempt to play in pure equal temperament because that would honestly sound terrible. (Also: any recording using historical wind instruments uses unequal temperament because historical wind instruments were built in unequal temperament derived from a system of 55 equal divisions of the octave, with some semitones being narrower than others.)

Among existing sets of Beethoven symphonies Krivine & Immerseel make this late 18th/early 19th century version of "equal temperament" with alternating semitones of 5/55 and 4/55 particularly audible, I think. See how out of tune these sound to you:

https://www.youtube.com/v/T2wm4I0nh5s
https://www.youtube.com/v/fcOzWEeSZT8

Sounds pretty good - about as good as HIP goes.

I am not sure why it is so difficult to reconstruct what instruments, how they were tuned, or what the playing style was during Beethoven's time. That was 200 yrs ago not 2000 years ago and it was Vienna and LVB was a major composer. You would think everything would be documented in painstaking detail.

The instruments & the tuning are well documented and many of them still exist. The playing style has to be reconstructed from circumstantial evidence, since people rarely sit down and actually document the playing style of their own time in detail; they're much more likely to write news articles decrying the state of modern performance and contrasting it to the golden age of the 1780s, or lauding the newest orchestra/conductor/soloist who is presenting something radically new and different from the dreadful playing style of the 1780s. But overall it's not too hard to pick up the typical features of performance practice during Beethoven's time, which is why I've seen some critics complain about HIP performances all sounding the same.

Certain things obviously have not been reconstructed, e.g., Beethoven's deafness led him to miss fistfuls of notes when performing or play too quietly to be heard, or loudly enough to rattle the keys of the instrument, whereas modern pianists do not follow his example. Audiences no longer talk, eat, etc during concerts (or at least not as loudly). Concerts last two hours instead of five. Orchestras generally rehearse compositions before playing them. We usually do not interrupt Beethoven's 5th between the second and third movements for Rihanna to come onstage and perform her latest single, or the first violinist to play a potpourri of his own composition on themes from a recent film score. All of this would have been standard performance practice in the early nineteenth century.

Quote from: RebLem on June 13, 2018, 10:43:32 PM
I have lots of good sets.  But in the past few years, lots of HIP and OIP groups have recorded the nine, and each has been hailed by a few as revolutionary and revelatory and the one to get.  To me, though, only one of them has actually fulfilled that promise--the one from Jos van Immerseel and Anima Eterna on the Zig Zag label, distributed by Harmonia Mundi.

Immerseel is great, but don't overlook Frans Brüggen's 1st cycle on Philips, now reissued on Universal with a glorious Prometheus and a classic version of the violin concerto with Zehetmair:

New HIP cycles I stil have to look into are Bruno Weil (well, not completely new) and Martin Haselböck with the Wiener Akademie.

Q

Quote from: amw on June 16, 2018, 08:38:17 PM
The instruments & the tuning are well documented and many of them still exist. The playing style has to be reconstructed from circumstantial evidence, since people rarely sit down and actually document the playing style of their own time in detail; they're much more likely to write news articles decrying the state of modern performance and contrasting it to the golden age of the 1780s, or lauding the newest orchestra/conductor/soloist who is presenting something radically new and different from the dreadful playing style of the 1780s. But overall it's not too hard to pick up the typical features of performance practice during Beethoven's time, which is why I've seen some critics complain about HIP performances all sounding the same.

Certain things obviously have not been reconstructed, e.g., Beethoven's deafness led him to miss fistfuls of notes when performing or play too quietly to be heard, or loudly enough to rattle the keys of the instrument, whereas modern pianists do not follow his example. Audiences no longer talk, eat, etc during concerts (or at least not as loudly). Concerts last two hours instead of five. Orchestras generally rehearse compositions before playing them. We usually do not interrupt Beethoven's 5th between the second and third movements for Rihanna to come onstage and perform her latest single, or the first violinist to play a potpourri of his own composition on themes from a recent film score. All of this would have been standard performance practice in the early nineteenth century.

Some other things I rarely hear reconstructed in these recordings are the expressive use of orchestral and solo vibrato (and all the different gradations of slight to heavy, slow to quick vibrato), fluctuations/modifications of tempo, portamento and rubato. Norrington is the only conductor who seems to take much notice of orchestra size, and his Stuttgart recordings of Beethoven use quadruple winds and brass to complement a full string section, making it sound wonderfully rich, full and perfect for large, modern concert halls. I guess these things can be more easily appreciated in modern performance contexts as we don't have to re-invent the audience or concert programmes so much.

Actually, if anyone has any recommendations on historically informed tempo and rubato/vibrato/tempo/portamento, I would be extremely interested to hear it.

Quote from: jessop on June 17, 2018, 02:21:19 AM

Actually, if anyone has any recommendations on historically informed tempo and rubato/vibrato/tempo/portamento, I would be extremely interested to hear it.

I would be too. Or maybe if someone can recommend which performance would be the closest to LVB's time tha twould be greate also.

Quote from: amw on June 16, 2018, 08:38:17 PM
But overall it's not too hard to pick up the typical features of performance practice during Beethoven's time, which is why I've seen some critics complain about HIP performances all sounding the same.

Certain things obviously have not been reconstructed, e.g., Beethoven's deafness led him to miss fistfuls of notes when performing or play too quietly to be heard, or loudly enough to rattle the keys of the instrument, whereas modern pianists do not follow his example. Audiences no longer talk, eat, etc during concerts (or at least not as loudly). Concerts last two hours instead of five. Orchestras generally rehearse compositions before playing them. We usually do not interrupt Beethoven's 5th between the second and third movements for Rihanna to come onstage and perform her latest single, or the first violinist to play a potpourri of his own composition on themes from a recent film score. All of this would have been standard performance practice in the early nineteenth century.

I don't know whether they all sound the same but a lot of them do: for example in the Immerseel clip the most dominant instrument is the timpani which I seriously doubt is the balance that LVB intended.

Brueggen was mentioned - it is an interesting cycle in that the playing as far as tempo, dynamics and expressiveness are closer to an old school sort of interpretation rather than the more cool and academic reading of some HIP ensembles (compared to say Hogwood/AAM).

Quote from: Que on June 16, 2018, 10:50:14 PM
Immerseel is great, but don't overlook Frans Brüggen's 1st cycle on Philips, now reissued on Universal with a glorious Prometheus and a classic version of the violin concerto with Zehetmair [...]

You beat me to it!

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 17, 2018, 07:40:22 AM
I would be too. Or maybe if someone can recommend which performance would be the closest to LVB's time tha twould be greate also.
I don't know whether they all sound the same but a lot of them do: for example in the Immerseel clip the most dominant instrument is the timpani which I seriously doubt is the balance that LVB intended.

Brueggen was mentioned - it is an interesting cycle in that the playing as far as tempo, dynamics and expressiveness are closer to an old school sort of interpretation rather than the more cool and academic reading of some HIP ensembles (compared to say Hogwood/AAM).

Brüggen delivers more charm and nobility, that's for sure.
Only the 9th is not among my favourites, also caused by an out-of-shape Anthony Rolfe Johnson.

Quote from: Marc on June 17, 2018, 10:02:15 AM
Brüggen delivers more charm and nobility, that's for sure.
Only the 9th is not among my favourites, also caused by an out-of-shape Anthony Rolfe Johnson.

Well I am not going to beat on him but if there is ever a personification of the term "second-rate oratorio singer" that would be him. He is also on the Gardiner and Hogwood sets, they must love him. For whatever reason light voice is synonomous with HIP.

Have three sets.

Rattle. Find there is something missing with his recordings

Harnoncourt.  Some lovely recordings

Muti. Love it.

Quote from: Judith on June 17, 2018, 12:28:06 PM
Muti. Love it.

Phila.?

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 18, 2018, 05:46:30 AM
Phila.?

Indeed. (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2017/10/a-survey-of-beethoven-symphony-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2017/10/a-survey-of-beethoven-symphony-cycles.html))

Gorgeously homogenized Beethoven with a hint of saturated gloss.

Quote from: SurprisedByBeauty on June 18, 2018, 06:08:34 AM
Indeed. (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2017/10/a-survey-of-beethoven-symphony-cycles.html (http://ionarts.blogspot.com/2017/10/a-survey-of-beethoven-symphony-cycles.html))

Gorgeously homogenized Beethoven with a hint of saturated gloss.

Cool. I do have the Muti/Phila. Berlioz Roméo et Juliette, which is exquisite.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on June 18, 2018, 06:43:56 AM
Cool. I do have the Muti/Phila. Berlioz Roméo et Juliette, which is exquisite.

It wasn't necessarily meant as a compliment, but it evidently has its own kind of appeal.  :D

;)

Quote from: PerfectWagnerite on June 17, 2018, 12:16:00 PM
Well I am not going to beat on him but if there is ever a personification of the term "second-rate oratorio singer" that would be him. He is also on the Gardiner and Hogwood sets, they must love him. For whatever reason light voice is synonomous with HIP.

To me, Rolfe Johnson was a hit or a miss. My disliking in this particular recording wasn't caused by the 'lightness' of his voice, though. When I listen to his "Froh, wie seine Sonnen..." it feels as if he wasn't able to control his voice. Almost any other 'light' voice could have done a better job.

I.c. his voice in other performances: of the HIP voices (f.i. in Bach) I always considered him as one of the 'lesser light' tenors. He most certainly could produce plenty of volume. I heard him live once or twice in Bach, and he was in good shape, loud and clear. His German pronouncation wasn't always perfect, but he showed great understanding of the lyrics. He was also good as Evangelist in Bach's passions (Gardiner and Harnoncourt), and I still like his performance of Idomeneo in Mozart's opera (Gardiner). From what I remember, his interpretation of Britten's Peter Grimes (Haitink) wasn't all that bad, either. But I also recall a few radio broadcasts where he, IMHO, was 'overshouting' (does this word exist?) and less in control.

I felt sad when, around 2000, I heard he suffered from Alzheimer and had to stop his career. He had to carry the Alzheimer burden for 10 years before he died.

Apologies for getting off-topic.

(I still like Brüggen I. :))

What about a set from Herreweghe
it seems the set was just mentioned in #178 only ...
please give an opinion regarding the set
thank you

As I implied in #178 I think it's good. Somewhat tempered by an aesthetic "coolness" and unwillingness to dig too deep, in fantastic sound quality. Weirdly refreshing to listen to, perhaps because so many other Beethoven cycles play the fortes really loud either for visceral excitement or nobility and grandeur, whereas the Flemish players are....restrained? undemonstrative? which allows you to hear not just the details of Beethoven's not particularly interesting orchestration but also more importantly changes the expressive character of some of the movements. Modern instruments though.

No idea if anyone has other opinions & I am fairly easy to please in general

Quote from: czgirb on January 22, 2019, 04:15:39 AM
What about a set from Herreweghe
it seems the set was just mentioned in #178 only ...
please give an opinion regarding the set
thank you

I wasn't blown away by Herreweghe's Flemish cycle on Pentatone using modern instruments, but his period recording of the 9th symphony on Harmonia Mundi is my favorite period recording of that symphony. - It was dirt cheap when I bought it.

[asin]B009YKMALO[/asin]

BUMP

This Beethoven anniversary year, why not do some intensive, comparative symphony listening? I'm starting out with an old-fashioned shootout between two complete cycles recorded around the turn of the 1950s into the 1960s by patricianly, veteran French-speaking conductors whom everybody loves...

That's right...it's CLUYTENS v. MONTEUX!

Going wildly out of order...

No. 4. The first thing that surprises me about Monteux' reading (with the London Symphony; his cycle is divided among multiple orchestras) is that he takes the first-movement repeat, which wasn't a common choice back then. The second thing that surprises me is the sheer liveliness, the vivacity. This is not "old man" Beethoven! Cluytens is noticeably slower in the first movement, but doesn't feel any more sluggish, in part because of that big ol' beefy Berlin Philharmonic sound. (Karajan/Berlin feels like such a historic milestone, recorded just a few years later, but the gorgeous, oceanic violin section is already in place in 1959.) Cluytens' timpani is a bit less forward, his bassoon soloist a bit more so.

Both are great. Maybe I might give a slight edge to Monteux' velocity and joie de vivre, but there's no loser here.

No. 7. Monteux cuts the repeat this time, but he doesn't cut down on the excitement. The allegretto, not quite allegretto at 8:44, feels monumental, and the rest of the symphony dances as it should. Not much to say, honestly: it's just darn good.

Aaaand we hit cocktail hour so I'll have to listen to Cluytens' Seventh tomorrow  ;D

Good choice from my perspective as I own both cycles. The Monteux 7th is close to my top pick if not the top.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Wue%2BMpx5L._SX555_.jpg)

Quote from: George on May 13, 2020, 02:56:00 PM
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51Wue%2BMpx5L._SX555_.jpg)

Current incarnation
[asin]B079J8R3HZ[/asin]

My preferences remain about the same
Chailly among the recent modern orchestra cycles, Gardiner for the PI, and either Karajan 70s,  Bernstein VPO, or Bohm for the "traditional" 20th century big band sound.

Quote from: Holden on May 13, 2020, 02:35:35 PM
Good choice from my perspective as I own both cycles. The Monteux 7th is close to my top pick if not the top.

Agreed on both counts; I may listen along too as I haven't listened to either set in the past few years... really good 7ths are hard to come by, and I remember greatly enjoying Monteux's....

Quote from: JBS on May 13, 2020, 03:23:10 PM
Chailly among the recent modern orchestra cycles, Gardiner for the PI, and either Karajan 70s,  Bernstein VPO, or Bohm for the "traditional" 20th century big band sound.

Very much agreed on Chailly and 70's Karajan.

Any love for Bernstein/NY Philharmonic/Sony? I've recently acquired the complete set and really like it. Disclaimer: I did not read the whole thread

Quote from: vers la flamme on May 14, 2020, 02:19:47 AM
Any love for Bernstein/NY Philharmonic/Sony? I've recently acquired the complete set and really like it. Disclaimer: I did not read the whole thread

I bought No 3 from that cycle as an LP (ca. 1970) and it has remained a favourite ever since. For no particular reason I didn't hear any of the rest of the cycle until fairly recently when I bought the Sony box set. My only disappointment was with No 5 which I found rather plodding - a bit of a surprise given how dynamic Bernstein is in the rest of the cycle. When the set was discussed in another forum several people singled out No 5 as their all time favourite, something I just couldn't understand.

The Bernstein 5 is plodding and the Vienna is not better, not sure why Bernstein adopted such broad tempo (esp. in the first movement). I don't have all of the Sony/CBS but the Eroica is a favorite of mine and the 4th and 7th are also quite good in my recollection. However, the general sound of them is a bit rough which can add to the excitement but is bound to offend some listeners.

Quote from: André on November 13, 2014, 04:59:00 PM
With the recent acquisition of the Nagano-Montreal set (still in wraps), I count 21 cycles on my shelves. That's probably half a dozen too many,, as they are not all intense or individual enough to make the cut. Among those I return to more often for that individual POV are:

- Böhm WP
- Wyn Morris LSO
- Scherchen VSOO
- Peter Maag
- Schmidt-Issestedt WP
- Karajan BP 1977
- Cluytens BP
- Ansermet SRO

Not to be easily discarded: Ferencsik, KKletzki, Bernstein II, Monteux.

New list, in no particular order:

de Vriend
Böhm
Monteux
Schmidt-Isserstedt
Nagano
Maag

Quote from: Brian on May 13, 2020, 02:17:25 PM
BUMP

This Beethoven anniversary year, why not do some intensive, comparative symphony listening? I'm starting out with an old-fashioned shootout between two complete cycles recorded around the turn of the 1950s into the 1960s by patricianly, veteran French-speaking conductors whom everybody loves...

That's right...it's CLUYTENS v. MONTEUX!

Going wildly out of order...

No. 4. The first thing that surprises me about Monteux' reading (with the London Symphony; his cycle is divided among multiple orchestras) is that he takes the first-movement repeat, which wasn't a common choice back then. The second thing that surprises me is the sheer liveliness, the vivacity. This is not "old man" Beethoven! Cluytens is noticeably slower in the first movement, but doesn't feel any more sluggish, in part because of that big ol' beefy Berlin Philharmonic sound. (Karajan/Berlin feels like such a historic milestone, recorded just a few years later, but the gorgeous, oceanic violin section is already in place in 1959.) Cluytens' timpani is a bit less forward, his bassoon soloist a bit more so.

Both are great. Maybe I might give a slight edge to Monteux' velocity and joie de vivre, but there's no loser here.

No. 7. Monteux cuts the repeat this time, but he doesn't cut down on the excitement. The allegretto, not quite allegretto at 8:44, feels monumental, and the rest of the symphony dances as it should. Not much to say, honestly: it's just darn good.

Aaaand we hit cocktail hour so I'll have to listen to Cluytens' Seventh tomorrow  ;D

I gotta hand No. 7 to Monteux here. Cluytens is just too slow for my taste...well-played and romantic, but needs energy. He doesn't need to strip it down and go crazy like Chailly or Dausgaard or Norrington...just being more like Monteux would do  ;D

I have not heard any of Monteux' Beethoven but I never understood what was supposed to be so remarkable with the Cluytens cycle. If one wants "old school" there are lots of other choices, albeit usually in worse sound. And the more "modern" roughly contemporary recordings by Leibowitz and Karajan blow it away if one prefers such an approach.

Cluytens is quite unlike Leibowitz or Karajan IMO. His Beethoven is more stately, more avuncular. He succeeds best in nos 1, 2, 4, 6 and 9. In the others it hangs fire. For his type of approach I prefer Maag, Morris, Schmidt-Isserstedt and Böhm. Even with comparably slow tempi they are more alert, with more tensile strength. Cluytens' relaxed way is suitable for listening on rainy days

Quote from: j winter on May 13, 2020, 06:51:17 PM
Agreed on both counts; I may listen along too as I haven't listened to either set in the past few years... really good 7ths are hard to come by, and I remember greatly enjoying Monteux's....



Very much agreed on Chailly and 70's Karajan.

One of the things that make this stand out for me is the timing. After the introduction the time signature changes at bar 62? (my counting) from 4/4 to 6/8. Monteux makes this timing very evident. This change of time signature adds to the energy of the movement without unduly speeding it up. With many other versions you can't really hear this and they sound like they are in 3/4 time instead. (Some even 4/4). Toscanini also did this which is probably why he had so many well regarded recordings of this work.

This time signature issue in the first movement is one of my major quibbles with the much vaunted Carlos Kleiber recording. Beethoven clearly indicates, with the way he arrests the end of the slow introduction and changes to 6/8, that the time signature is imperative. To me it's like he's changing gears in a manual transmission truck. This might be a poor analogy but I hope you get my drift.

Quote from: Holden on May 14, 2020, 01:51:22 PM
One of the things that make this stand out for me is the timing. After the introduction the time signature changes at bar 62? (my counting) from 4/4 to 6/8. Monteux makes this timing very evident. This change of time signature adds to the energy of the movement without unduly speeding it up. With many other versions you can't really hear this and they sound like they are in 3/4 time instead. (Some even 4/4). Toscanini also did this which is probably why he had so many well regarded recordings of this work.

This time signature issue in the first movement is one of my major quibbles with the much vaunted Carlos Kleiber recording. Beethoven clearly indicates, with the way he arrests the end of the slow introduction and changes to 6/8, that the time signature is imperative. To me it's like he's changing gears in a manual transmission truck. This might be a poor analogy but I hope you get my drift.

Very interesting ! When does this happen in the Monteux recording? If you could point to the min/sec of that time signature change, that would be most helpful. I think you refer to the start of the allegro, but I'm not sure. And I can't count bars... :-[

Quote from: André on May 14, 2020, 04:45:42 PM
Very interesting ! When does this happen in the Monteux recording? If you could point to the min/sec of that time signature change, that would be most helpful. I think you refer to the start of the allegro, but I'm not sure. And I can't count bars... :-[

THe transition begins at 3:32 and builds to 3:58 with a series of repeated double notes where woodwind and strings interplay leading into the new theme. The time signature changes to 6/8 at 4:12. Because I wasn't sure exactly when it changed I cheated and looked at the score

Since the forum reset has removed some of my posts, I'd like to take this chance to again defend the Bernstein/NY Beethoven 5. It's slow, yes, but never plodding, and somehow Lenny still keeps great momentum throughout. It's one of my favorite 5ths and a highlight of a great cycle.

In order to preference...

1.- Barenboim, Staatskapelle Berlin
2.- Bruno Walter. Columbia SO, Stereo
3.- Otto Klemperer, EMI, Philharmonia
4.- Karajan 77
5.- Karajan 63
6.- Furtwangler, EMI
7.- Thielemann, Sony
8.- Jochum, Phillips
9.- Bernstein VPO
10.- Schmidt-Isserstedt, VPO, Decca

I have not worked my way through the whole set (to be honest, I never listen to any Beethoven set that way), but I want to put in a word for Kletzki with the Czech Philharmonic.  I love the sound of this orchestra in Beethoven.

[asin] B004NWHVSA[/asin]

My first Beethoven set on LP was Böhm/Vienna from the International Preview Society, and I still have a soft spot for it.

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/91kgvRhtReL._SL1500_.jpg)

[asin]B00E59ZROG[/asin]

I'd also like to express my admiration for that Bernstein/NYP Eroica (Bernstein Century CD).  To me it just sounds like the way this music should go.

[asin] B00000I0W0[/asin]

My preferences remain more or less the same: Krivine, Norrington, Leibowitz. I think of the more "traditional" cycles I rate Blomstedt/Leipzig the highest—a bit faster than his Dresden one and in much better sound.

Changes from previous list in red. I guess I don't listen to the Beethoven symphonies that much.

Bernstein NY C B-
Blomstedt Dresden C+
Blomstedt Leipzig A-
Brüggen Glossa C+
Brüggen Philips B-
Chailly A
Dohnányi A-
Fischer (Adam) B
Gardiner B+
Herreweghe A
Hogwood A-
Järvi B
Karajan 1963 C
Krivine A+
Leibowitz A+
Norrington LCP A-
Norrington Stuttgart A+

Quote from: Daverz on May 24, 2020, 06:18:17 PM
I have not worked my way through the whole set (to be honest, I never listen to any Beethoven set that way), but I want to put in a word for Kletzki with the Czech Philharmonic.  I love the sound of this orchestra in Beethoven.

[asin] B004NWHVSA[/asin]

Yes!  :)

And:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41qsUAefUOL._SY355_.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41tSRaap-uL._AC_SY355_.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41bI%2BIxdoAL._AC_.jpg)

Q

Quote from: Que on May 25, 2020, 03:56:21 AM
Yes!  :)

And:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41qsUAefUOL._SY355_.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41tSRaap-uL._AC_SY355_.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41bI%2BIxdoAL._AC_.jpg)

Q

Jochum/Concertgebouw was my first complete cycle. It came as a set of LPs in a bulky box with an embossed gold medallion on the front. I still hold it in great affection though some of the performances now seem rather slow, especially No 6, but No 8 is my all-time favourite for that work.

Quote from: amw on May 25, 2020, 02:00:05 AM
My preferences remain more or less the same: Krivine, Norrington, Leibowitz. I think of the more "traditional" cycles I rate Blomstedt/Leipzig the highest—a bit faster than his Dresden one and in much better sound.

Changes from previous list in red. I guess I don't listen to the Beethoven symphonies that much.

Bernstein NY C B-
Blomstedt Dresden C+
Blomstedt Leipzig A-
Brüggen Glossa C+
Brüggen Philips B-
Chailly A
Dohnányi A-
Fischer (Adam) B
Gardiner B+
Herreweghe A
Hogwood A-
Järvi B
Karajan 1963 C
Krivine A+
Leibowitz A+
Norrington LCP A-
Norrington Stuttgart A+

This might send me running back to Norrington II, which I remember liking a lot but haven't heard in ages. I'm quite surprised about Adam Fischer - his cycle is so full of ideas and idiosyncrasies, but that makes it personal...me, I thought a lot of it was super weird. But time to revisit that too, maybe. After finishing this Monteux/Cluytens duel thing.

My cycles

Off the top of my head

*Cluytens BPO
*HvK '63 
*Walter Mono
*Walter Stereo
*Toscanini NBCSO 49 -53
*Furtwangler - various
*Reiner
*Leibowitz
*Monteux Vienna/LSO
*Mengelberg

Not sure which I would rate as top they all have at least one symphony that is not performed as well as it should be. Favourite single symphonies

1 Toscanini NBCSO
2 Immerseel (HIP) Reiner Pittsburgh (Mono)
3 Leibowitz (Stereo) Toscanini '49 (mono)
4 Cluytens BPO
5 HvK '63
6 Walter Columbia SO/Cluytens/Reiner CSO (Hard to choose)
7 Monteux
8 The Liszt transcription by Katsaris (Yes, cheating I know) Maybe Toscanini
9 Fricsay BPO

Anyone have an opinion on this?
[asin]B084WPJWBC[/asin]

Quote from: JBS on May 26, 2020, 07:23:06 PM
Anyone have an opinion on this?
[asin]B084WPJWBC[/asin]

No opinion but it is a puzzle to me.

My introduction to Symphonies 5 & 6 (ca. 1968) was Steinberg and the Pittsburgh SO on the EMI bargain price Music for Pleasure label - both in mono sound and on LPs now long gone. The EMI (now Warner) Icon box has Symphonies 3, 5, 6, 7 & 8, recorded between 1955 and 1957. I assume Nos 5 & 6 are the same I used to have on LP.

A few years ago I downloaded Nos 1, 5, 6, 8 & 9 (Mahler version) from Rediscovery.US - all with the PSO but in stereo (at least that is what foobar2000 says); unfortunately Rediscovery provides minimum information.

The Amazon link for the DG set is pretty useless, not least because it says the set has only 2 CDs.  Amazon UK is marginally better in that it gives a track listing for all 9 symphonies, apparently squashed on to 2 CDs; it describes No 9 as 'original version'. There is no useful recording/publication info.

How many times did Steinberg record the Beethoven symphonies?

Went digging...
The EMI recordings were originally done for Capitol, in the 1950s.
This new set is a cycle done for Command Classics in the 1960s.
Source
Steinberg's Wikipedia bio
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Steinberg
Presto's listing for the new set
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8768411--beethoven-the-symphonies

Quote from: JBS on May 27, 2020, 05:52:48 AM
Went digging...
The EMI recordings were originally done for Capitol, in the 1950s.
This new set is a cycle done for Command Classics in the 1960s.
Source
Steinberg's Wikipedia bio
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Steinberg
Presto's listing for the new set
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/8768411--beethoven-the-symphonies

Many thanks for that I will check out the DG set on Spotify and possibly order from Presto

I'm curious: Have all my posts on this thread been deleted? And if so, why? Did anyone notice anything going missing? I can't believe I dreamt about posting about Steinberg's Beethoven.

I see. There seems to have been a universal deletion of a few day's posts worth.

There were two server crashes within the last week or so and lots of messages were lost.

Quote from: Jo498 on June 05, 2020, 12:45:58 AM
There were two server crashes within the last week or so and lots of messages were lost.

So I've read up on, since. (Sticking to my motto: Talk first, research later.  :( )
It just happens so that all my posting, after a month of silence, had been taking place in that time. So I found it curious that everything had been wiped out.  ;D

Just seen that Savall has done/is doing a complete cycle at last and I am very very very very very very very very excited. Just stuck the first part (1-5) on Spotify post haste...#1 sounding great so far

Quote from: eoghan on October 03, 2020, 09:52:14 AM
Just seen that Savall has done/is doing a complete cycle at last and I am very very very very very very very very excited. Just stuck the first part (1-5) on Spotify post haste...#1 sounding great so far

On my wishlist, because it is a must.

I wonder if the new recording with Marek Janowski is a must too.

There is a Janowski Eroica with the Suisse romande orchestra that is my favourite of them all. It's from a link posted here many years ago. I believe it was a SR broadcast (in excellent sound). On the strength of that I'd certainly be interested to follow the progress of an eventual cycle by that conductor.

Quote from: André on October 03, 2020, 10:58:53 AM
There is a Janowski Eroica with the Suisse romande orchestra that is my favourite of them all. It's from a link posted here many years ago. I believe it was a SR broadcast (in excellent sound). On the strength of that I'd certainly be interested to follow the progress of an eventual cycle by that conductor.

Wait no longer, the whole Janowski cycle is boxed up this month. WDR Symphony in Cologne recorded in 2018-19.

The Savall set is amazing, truly one of the most intelligently conducted and revolutionary-feeling sets of interpretations in years, and I hope that in a few years they will be able to return and record 6-9.

Quote from: André on October 03, 2020, 10:58:53 AM
There is a Janowski Eroica with the Suisse romande orchestra that is my favourite of them all. It's from a link posted here many years ago. I believe it was a SR broadcast (in excellent sound). On the strength of that I'd certainly be interested to follow the progress of an eventual cycle by that conductor.

Yes, that Eroica was special, and also the reason for my high expectations to Janowski's cycle.

Quote from: Brian on October 03, 2020, 11:16:08 AM
Wait no longer, the whole Janowski cycle is boxed up this month. WDR Symphony in Cologne recorded in 2018-19.

The Savall set is amazing, truly one of the most intelligently conducted and revolutionary-feeling sets of interpretations in years, and I hope that in a few years they will be able to return and record 6-9.

Thanks for the info.

I'll wait to check into the Savall set. Extracts make me think he put Beethoven on a severe fat and carb free diet. I may be wrong of course, there are 36 movements after all... ;)

Quote from: (: premont :) on October 03, 2020, 11:23:44 AM
Yes, that Eroica was special, and also the reason for my high expectations to Janowski's cycle.

Will definitely keep a close eye on it.

In an entirely different perspective, I wait for Sony to finally issue Ormandy's performances. Some of them are simply unbeatable.

I sampled some of the (new) Savall Eroica and didn't like the orchestral playing very much. The balances felt off, and the brass players did not seem very good (which is a major flaw in the Eroica). The interpretation felt pretty standard to be honest. Like similar to most other HIP sets I've heard and liked, without really doing anything extra. But this may be too harsh.

I will listen to the Janowski at some point when my tolerance for Beethoven's music returns.

It would seem that Janowski doesn't take the repeat in the Pastorale's scherzo/ländler movement. I wonder how that will sit with some here  :o.

Quote from: amw on October 03, 2020, 12:46:51 PM
the brass players did not seem very good (which is a major flaw in the Eroica).

The French horns are definitely balanced strangely - at times they are very prominent and exciting, but at other times they're timid and in hiding. Sarge would be alternately delighted and confused.

Quote from: Brian on October 03, 2020, 11:16:08 AM
The Savall set is amazing, truly one of the most intelligently conducted and revolutionary-feeling sets of interpretations in years, and I hope that in a few years they will be able to return and record 6-9.

Absolutely. However, assuming Savall is interested (and why wouldn't he be?) you won't have to wait years.  That guy is a machine from heaven. His production rate is phenomenal, but he rarely reaches the classical era, time-wise. If he is determined to finish the cycle, it won't take him long. However, if he is already bored with "these radical kid" composers and drifts back to 14th century Paniagua type composers...well, maybe we'll never here the rest.

Quote from: Que on May 25, 2020, 03:56:21 AM
Yes!  :)

And:

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41qsUAefUOL._SY355_.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41tSRaap-uL._AC_SY355_.jpg)

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41bI%2BIxdoAL._AC_.jpg)

Q

Just curious why Bruggen and not Hogwood? I'd be interested in reading your take.

======

I stopped exploring new recordings sometime back (other than the Walter mono, being able to hear that all the way through after the recent Complete Columbia box) after it seemed everyone was going for period inspired tempi; for me if you're going to do that go all out with period instruments and an appropriately sized orchestra.

So my preferences go more towards the "gravitas" side of things, Szell being my overall favorite. These four in no particular order - Walter mono and stereo, Karajan 63, Wand/NDR. Followed by Hogwood and lastly a  Toscanini 1939 broadcast. Still brisk tempos on that but in general not like those 50s RCA recordings.

I don't know Jochum all that well but I've read he tended to have some elasticity and used some rubato ala Furtwangler so I plan to explore these. But I'm becoming less and less tolerant of poor sound (particularly EMI) as I get older and my hifi evolves.

It's been a long time since I listened to Hogwood's set. I remember it as having no flaws but also no virtues. I just pulled it out to give it a fresh listen, and will report.

The Bruggen set includes a very good performance of the VC, although strictly speaking that's not relevant to your question.

Quote from: Mookalafalas on October 04, 2020, 02:35:54 AM
Absolutely. However, assuming Savall is interested (and why wouldn't he be?) you won't have to wait years.  That guy is a machine from heaven. His production rate is phenomenal, but he rarely reaches the classical era, time-wise. If he is determined to finish the cycle, it won't take him long. However, if he is already bored with "these radical kid" composers and drifts back to 14th century Paniagua type composers...well, maybe we'll never here the rest.

On the back of the Savall  CD it says "complete symphonies vol. 1". But I have not seen any information about when vol. 2 is coming out.

Brüggen is certainly among the more flexible/elastic/weightier of HIP but of course still quite different from traditional/historical. The violin concerto with Zehetmair is probably my favorite recording of that piece.

Quote from: hvbias on October 04, 2020, 05:32:58 PM
Just curious why Bruggen and not Hogwood? I'd be interested in reading your take.

I think Brüggen has more gravitas than the - in my mind - more lighter, "Mozartian" Hogwood.

QuoteI don't know Jochum all that well but I've read he tended to have some elasticity and used some rubato ala Furtwangler so I plan to explore these. But I'm becoming less and less tolerant of poor sound (particularly EMI) as I get older and my hifi evolves.

The sound of Jochum in the Concertgebouw is excellent.  :)

Q

Quote from: Ras on October 08, 2020, 07:59:56 AM
On the back of the Savall  CD it says "complete symphonies vol. 1". But I have not seen any information about when vol. 2 is coming out.

They need to convene and record them after the pandemic ends. They are doing a series of weeklong sessions, two weeks per Symphony j think, and the pandemic stopped them after 5. There's a note about it in the booklet.

Quote from: JBS on October 04, 2020, 05:48:27 PM
It's been a long time since I listened to Hogwood's set. I remember it as having no flaws but also no virtues. I just pulled it out to give it a fresh listen, and will report.

The Bruggen set includes a very good performance of the VC, although strictly speaking that's not relevant to your question.

Reporting back after the promised listen, I find Hogwood to be a little better than I remember, but not enough to change my basic opinion. Que's term "Mozartian" is appropriate.

I tried the new WDR Janowski Eroica on streaming and didn't love it. Janowski rejects some of the best ideas of HIP - the timpanist uses the romantic fuzz ball sticks and is poorly balanced so it's not always audible (I love that moment in the first movement's recap where the timpanist just blasts out a drum roll that wasn't in the original exposition; here it's very underplayed). The brass is also somewhat reticent; it's interesting, but also odd, to listen to some of the biggest climaxes and hear the clarinets in full but not the horns. The pacing is old-school normal. The string playing is really the emphasis here, and the WDR Symphony is good, but it's not exactly got the richness of the more HIP-savvy Chailly in Leipzig or the even more romantic Barenboim in East Berlin. Overall, I guess the whole thing was just...middle.

Will be curious to see how other people react and find out if the problem is my ears. :)

Quote from: Que on October 08, 2020, 08:18:13 AM
I think Brüggen has more gravitas than the - in my mind - more lighter, "Mozartian" Hogwood.

The sound of Jochum in the Concertgebouw is excellent.  :)

Q

Quote from: JBS on October 08, 2020, 02:08:28 PM
Reporting back after the promised listen, I find Hogwood to be a little better than I remember, but not enough to change my basic opinion. Que's term "Mozartian" is appropriate.

Thanks and sorry for the late reply. I think the reason I bought Hogwood back then was based off the quality and virtuosity of AAM's playing. My library has managed to get Bruggen for me via interlibrary loan so I will get to it at some point. I revisited Hogwood/Lubin in the Piano Concerti, something I didn't care for years ago but hearing it again I was absolutely delighted by the performances even in the Emperor. Earliest L'oiseau Lyre release, for some reason the Decca remaster on Spotify sounds more closed in.

Any thoughts on Jochum's second cycle vs the third on EMI? I've been streaming the second Philips cycle this morning and the performances are very good. The third with the LSO is also fantastic, maybe more dynamic and exciting?

I made it through all of Jochum's Philips and the LSO cycle on EMI. I personally prefer the EMI, it doesn't give up anything in recording quality and some parts of the Philips sound under played most notably the 9th which I found flat in the finale.

TTT after the end of 2020!  Just read through this entire thread and am amazed first at how many recordings are mentioned going back to Furtwängler and Toscanini, and second how the preferences and 'top' listings are so variable, but not surprisingly w/ these works.

For myself, I'm reassessing my modest collection of just 5 sets (culled many times over the decades, so could easily have had a dozen or more) shown below sans Savall - my 2 PI recordings are Gardiner and Immerseel - just listened to a couple discs from each and still like both; my 3 MI sets are shown on the top row below - Cluytens & Mackerras are my favorites - could replace Zinman - the HvK '63 recording seems to be a favorite in this thread?

Finally, since the last posts, Jordi Savall has concluded his project and all 9 symphonies are available in 2 packages at about $30 a piece - the reviews have been very good to outstanding (see attachment, if interested); of course, I'd like to see the two combined into one package/box at a reduced price but?  So, curious if previous choices and favorites have changed in the last few years, PI and MI please, and also thoughts on Savall - is he worth adding or replacing to my 'tiny' PI sub-collection?  Thanks for any comments.  Dave :)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81qEJJEdnXL._SL1500_.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71nRdd4ov+L._SL1191_.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81IHiozMIyL._SL1500_.jpg)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/41+RUzRviLL._SY355_.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71KsNjWS1kL._SL1200_.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/61CHUHGpa3L._SL1200_.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71AJ5WGPPJL._SL1200_.jpg)

Zinman is quite "HIP"-like with its very fast tempi and lean sound, and I suspect likewise for Mackerras (I only have 2 disc from his older cycle and I'd expect the more recent one even closer to HIP).
So I think, for something  different a more flexible, traditional, slowish approach could be interesting. While I have Cluytens in a big box I only know it superficially and it would not be my first pick for that approach. Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin goes a bit in this direction and it is in very good modern sound. Another one (live and not the best sound) would be Bernstein/Vienna. There are probably many more options, such as Böhm/Vienna.

Quote from: Jo498 on February 28, 2022, 08:06:31 AM
Zinman is quite "HIP"-like with its very fast tempi and lean sound, and I suspect likewise for Mackerras (I only have 2 disc from his older cycle and I'd expect the more recent one even closer to HIP).
So I think, for something  different a more flexible, traditional, slowish approach could be interesting. While I have Cluytens in a big box I only know it superficially and it would not be my first pick for that approach. Barenboim/Staatskapelle Berlin goes a bit in this direction and it is in very good modern sound. Another one (live and not the best sound) would be Bernstein/Vienna. There are probably many more options, such as Böhm/Vienna.

Thanks Jo... - yes, I debated about 'where' to place Zinman, but could still cull him out for another in the mode you suggest above - still have to decide on Savall - I've listened to his Nos. 1-5 on Spotify but not on my den speakers; also the 'new' set of 6-9 is also available there - maybe a playlist is in order -  ;D  Dave

You can listen to the Savall performances on Spotify - and other streaming devices no doubt. I suggest you give a thorough listen to at least a couple of the symphonies - not just snippets. My gall with his approach is that he transforms just about everything into a concerto for timpani. Striking and exciting at first but wearying over the long run. Personally I've become allergic to his approach as it amounts to a distortion for effect's sake. Others may disagree of course. ;)

Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 28, 2022, 07:52:47 AM
TTT after the end of 2020!  Just read through this entire thread and am amazed first at how many recordings are mentioned going back to Furtwängler and Toscanini, and second how the preferences and 'top' listings are so variable, but not surprisingly w/ these works.

For myself, I'm reassessing my modest collection of just 5 sets (culled many times over the decades, so could easily have had a dozen or more) shown below sans Savall - my 2 PI recordings are Gardiner and Immerseel - just listened to a couple discs from each and still like both; my 3 MI sets are shown on the top row below - Cluytens & Mackerras are my favorites - could replace Zinman - the HvK '63 recording seems to be a favorite in this thread?

The 63 HvK is good, but the Wand set is even better. (Better sound, too.)

Quote from: André on February 28, 2022, 10:22:51 AM
You can listen to the Savall performances on Spotify - and other streaming devices no doubt. I suggest you give a thorough listen to at least a couple of the symphonies - not just snippets. My gall with his approach is that he transforms just about everything into a concerto for timpani. Striking and exciting at first but wearying over the long run. Personally I've become allergic to his approach as it amounts to a distortion for effect's sake. Others may disagree of course. ;)

Quote from: George on February 28, 2022, 10:40:47 AM
The 63 HvK is good, but the Wand set is even better. (Better sound, too.)

Hi André and George - thanks for the comments - I've already listened to the first release on Spotify on some bedroom Sonos speakers (good but not the best compared to my den stereo) - noticed the tympani, as did the MusicWeb reviewer quoted below, so I'll preview again in my den w/ headphones (wife is purely a chamber music fan -  :laugh:) - if more recommendations come in then will put together another streaming playlist.  Dave :)

QuoteThe one niggle I have with these recordings is that the kettledrums, using hard sticks, are a bit prominent and draw attention to themselves a little too often, especially in the earliest symphonies where they seem at odds with the lighter touch. But they nonetheless are highly effective and emphasize the elemental nature of the music, especially in the Fourth and Fifth Symphonies. In particular, the rampaging timpani are simply breathtaking in the first and final movements of the Fourth. (MusicWeb Review)

Were there contemporary accounts of "rampaging timpani," I wonder?...

TD: in no especial order

I like 1. Masur/Gewandhaus (which I kind of "slouched into" when none of the brick-&-mortar shops (funny to think about it now, but at the time there were at least five places an easy walk from the office, in those days, where I could shop for CDs) had the Zinman, on which there was a lot of buzz at the time.
2. Immerseel
3. Blomstedt/SF
4. Lenny/NY Phil
5. Harnoncourt

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 28, 2022, 12:14:59 PM
Were there contemporary accounts of "rampaging timpani," I wonder?...

TD: in no especial order

I like 1. Masur/Gewandhaus (which I kind of "slouched into" when none of the brick-&-mortar shops (funny to think about it now, but at the time there were at least five places an easy walk from the office, in those days, where I could shop for CDs) had the Zinman, on which there was a lot of buzz at the time.
2. Immerseel
3. Blomstedt/SF
4. Lenny/NY Phil
5. Harnoncourt

Hi Karl - thanks for your response and comment that you presumably 'culled out' Zinman?  From reviewing this thread, reading the replies to my post, and looking on Amazon and the Fanfare Archive, I've come up w/ the 5 possibilities shown below (probably a Zinman replacement for me) - despite the thread's positive responses to HvK's '63 set, George convinced me to look for better sound (which I favor greatly) - one question about Lenny - assume the Vienna recordings are the 'good' ones (vs. his older ones w/ the New Yorkers)?  The back cover states these are 'live performances' - what is the level of audience noise/applause/etc.?  Sorry, but an intolerable issue for me.  Thanks again all for your comments and help.  Dave :)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71b-woDhrQL._SL1400_.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81HMuKnPCZL._SL1200_.jpg)  (https://static.universal-music.de/asset_new/497409/195/view/ludwig-van-beethoven-the-symphonies-william-steinberg.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71PHDuz6qiL._SL1417_.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51Wue+Mpx5L.jpg)

Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 28, 2022, 12:50:05 PM
Hi Karl - thanks for your response and comment that you presumably 'culled out' Zinman?  From reviewing this thread, reading the replies to my post, and looking on Amazon and the Fanfare Archive, I've come up w/ the 5 possibilities shown below (probably a Zinman replacement for me) - despite the thread's positive responses to HvK's '63 set, George convinced me to look for better sound (which I favor greatly) - one question about Lenny - assume the Vienna recordings are the 'good' ones (vs. his older ones w/ the New Yorkers)?  The back cover states these are 'live performances' - what is the level of audience noise/applause/etc.?  Sorry, but an intolerable issue for me.  Thanks again all for your comments and help.  Dave :)

Dave, I just never found the Zinman, I'm not familiar with the Lenny/Vienna set.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on February 28, 2022, 12:55:25 PM
Dave, I just never found the Zinman, I'm not familiar with the Lenny/Vienna set.

Sorry Karl - did not notice that you put the New Yorkers after Lenny - reading the Fanfare reviews, his later Vienna performances seem to trump the earlier recordings - hopefully others will 'chime in' about 'audience participation' in the Vienna recordings.  Dave :)

Quote from: SonicMan46 on February 28, 2022, 01:19:01 PM
Sorry Karl - did not notice that you put the New Yorkers after Lenny - reading the Fanfare reviews, his later Vienna performances seem to trump the the earlier recordings - hopefully others will 'chime in' about 'audience participation' in the Vienna recordings.  Dave :)

No worries, friend!

The Vienna performances from Bernstein are excellent, Dave. In some movements he can be a tad heavy (5:I for example is hardly con brio), but I still like the results. You won't hear a peep from the audience, BTW.

Apart from an uneven 9th, Monteux with the LSO/WP absolutely smokes.

I think Zinman was interesting when it came out in the late 1990s but I find it overall rather one dimensional (have 1-4,9). My main point was, however, that Zinman and Mackerras are basically HIPish with modern instruments, so all of your 6 but Cluytens take a broadly speaking HIP approach.

I have not checked Bernstein's recently but I think there is almost no audience noise. Virtually? all his lateish DG recordings from ca. 1980 on were from live concerts. Many of them were also on video/Laserdisc and I saw quite a few of them on German TV in the late 1980s as a teenager. The Beethoven is in now way as slow and mannered as some of Bernstein's other late recordings but it is slower than the 1960s CBS.

Harnoncourt is also live but IIRC without intrusions and usually good sound. It's of course also HIP with modern instruments (except trumpets) but rather individual as well.

Karajan and Wand are good but also more on the fast/straight side, certainly worthwhile but probably not such a strong contrast to what you have.

Quote from: André on February 28, 2022, 10:22:51 AM
You can listen to the Savall performances on Spotify - and other streaming devices no doubt. I suggest you give a thorough listen to at least a couple of the symphonies - not just snippets. My gall with his approach is that he transforms just about everything into a concerto for timpani. Striking and exciting at first but wearying over the long run. Personally I've become allergic to his approach as it amounts to a distortion for effect's sake. Others may disagree of course. ;)

I listened to No 6 from the Savall cycle yesterday. The timpani in the Storm made me jump but otherwise I didn't find them intrusive. What I didn't enjoy was the wiry sound of the strings - I don't remember them being so bad in the first batch of symphonies, will have to go back and check. I enjoyed the interpretation but not the string sound. I will press on with No 7 tomorrow.

Quote from: André on February 28, 2022, 10:22:51 AM
You can listen to the Savall performances on Spotify - and other streaming devices no doubt. I suggest you give a thorough listen to at least a couple of the symphonies - not just snippets. My gall with his approach is that he transforms just about everything into a concerto for timpani......

Quote from: Jo498 on February 28, 2022, 11:49:59 PM
I think Zinman was interesting when it came out in the late 1990s but I find it overall rather one dimensional (have 1-4,9). My main point was, however, that Zinman and Mackerras are basically HIPish with modern instruments, so all of your 6 but Cluytens take a broadly speaking HIP approach.

I have not checked Bernstein's recently but I think there is almost no audience noise.........

Harnoncourt is also live but IIRC without intrusions and usually good sound. It's of course also HIP with modern instruments (except trumpets) but rather individual as well.

Karajan and Wand are good but also more on the fast/straight side, certainly worthwhile but probably not such a strong contrast to what you have.

Quote from: Biffo on March 01, 2022, 01:24:59 AM
I listened to No 6 from the Savall cycle yesterday. The timpani in the Storm made me jump but otherwise I didn't find them intrusive. What I didn't enjoy was the wiry sound of the strings - I don't remember them being so bad in the first batch of symphonies, will have to go back and check. I enjoyed the interpretation but not the string sound. I will press on with No 7 tomorrow.

Thanks All for the additional comments - I did re-listen to Savall on Nos. 1-5 completely on Spotify and must agree w/ the 'tympani comments' - I love that section of the orchestra but at times just overbearing (e.g. last movement of No. 3 & a lot of No. 5) - thus will not add Jordi to my collection, quite happy w/ Gardiner and Immerseel. 

Well, what attracted me to Mackerras (and Zinman) was the use of modern instruments but w/ period practices, so not an issue.  However, I'll start reviewing some of the ones mentioned and those in my previous post and do some more Spotify previewing.  Thanks again!  Dave :)

Quote from: SonicMan46 on March 01, 2022, 09:05:49 AM
Thanks All for the additional comments - I did re-listen to Savall on Nos. 1-5 completely on Spotify and must agree w/ the 'tympani comments' - I love that section of the orchestra but at times just overbearing (e.g. last movement of No. 3 & a lot of No. 5) - thus will not add Jordi to my collection, quite happy w/ Gardiner and Immerseel.

There had to have been a happy medium between "timpani in your face" and "do you hear that low rumble?"

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 01, 2022, 09:37:51 AM
There had to have been a happy medium between "timpani in your face" and "do you hear that low rumble?"

Hi Karl - LOL!  :laugh:  For me, Savall is not a choice for 'repeated listening' - probably in 1985 or so, I bought Telarc's CD of the 1812 Overture - and when the REAL cannons were exploded (in bold below), I could feel shock waves hit my body from the large passive radiators in my EV speakers which I still own (and had re-built); well, once was enough and bought another less jarring version.   8)  Dave

QuoteThe 1812 Overture, Telarc's all-time best-selling recording, is an audiophile's dream. The superb playing of the Cincinnati Pops under the baton of Erich Kunzel combined with Telarc's sound effects make this an unbeatable performance! The bells heard on this CD are those of the Emery Memorial Carillon, recreating the tumultuous clangor of church bells which Tchaikovsky envisioned. In order to capture the most authentic recording, three nineteenth-century cannons, owned and manned by the Fifth Virginia Regiment, were utilized, and to capture the perfect cannon sound, a total of twenty-four different charges with sixteen shots of varying sizes were exploded and recorded, as required in Tchaikovsky's score. (Amazon)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71K0v3tL9mL._SL1417_.jpg)

I suppose I'd pick Kletzki with the partial Markevitch cycle on Philips and DG as a supplement.  But I don't listen to Beethoven cycles whole, I just pick and choose among them what to listen to as the mood strikes.  It was the 7th from the DG Steinberg cycle a few days ago.

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 01, 2022, 09:37:51 AM
There had to have been a happy medium between "timpani in your face" and "do you hear that low rumble?"

Brings to my mind 'the strange case of the missing timpani' in Decca's first recording of Don Giovanni under Solti. Despite a stellar cast and an otherwise superb playing from the London Philharmonic, the virtual absence of that orchestral section is deplorable. At best a very faint rumble hints at a passing subway train deep under the recording studio. The rest of the time they are inaudible. What were the engineers thinking ?

Quote from: Daverz on March 01, 2022, 11:25:04 AM
I was the 7th from the DG Steinberg cycle a few days ago.

Must have been good. Pittsburgh or Boston?

Quote from: k a rl h e nn i ng on March 01, 2022, 12:25:11 PM
Must have been good. Pittsburgh or Boston?

Pittsburgh.  So far, I also really liked the 4.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71cUWdp3e4L._SX522_.jpg)

Review at classicstoday (not by DH):

https://www.classicstoday.com/review/steinberg-pittsburghs-classic-beethoven-symphonies

Quote from: Daverz on March 02, 2022, 05:46:52 AM
Pittsburgh.  So far, I also really liked the 4.

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71cUWdp3e4L._SX522_.jpg)

Review at classicstoday (not by DH):

https://www.classicstoday.com/review/steinberg-pittsburghs-classic-beethoven-symphonies

Sweet!

Quote from: Daverz on March 02, 2022, 05:46:52 AM
Pittsburgh.  So far, I also really liked the 4.

(https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/55787f0ae4b02f0501debbeb/1617961032480-RPZEACRAUN4ED6F7Z80H/Steinberg.jpg?format=1000w)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/81HMuKnPCZL._SL1200_.jpg)

Review at classicstoday (not by DH):

https://www.classicstoday.com/review/steinberg-pittsburghs-classic-beethoven-symphonies

Hi Dave - several posts of mine back, I showed 5 potential 'box replacements' - Lennie after reading a few reviews and not being a fan of his was out me; Harnoncourt had mixed reviews and listening to several of the Symphonies on Spotify left me unimpressed; Wand I've not yet had time to review or hear (believe a George recommendation).

So, the two left are Steinberg & Kletzki, both w/ old sound from the 1960s but remastered - I've attached reviews of both conductors - in the first quote below, the ClassicsToday reviewer complains about the sound - just curious in your listening if you had the same impression?  And as to the Kletzki, the AllMusic reviewer concludes w/ a near dismissal in my mind!  BUT, I'm currently listening on Kletzki on Spotify (on headphones and hearing no tape hiss at all - can't really agree w/ his remarks at the moment - will continue - of course the other question (for me) is do I want a 1960s recording vs one from this century or at least the 1990s?  Thanks all.  Dave :)

QuoteRE: Steinberg - However, the engineering emphasizes the upper frequencies, resulting in an over-bright, almost metallic sound. This effect varies depending on the speakers or headphones being used. (ClassicsToday)

QuoteRE: Kletzki - These analog versions don't compare well with the best contemporary digital recordings, and the sound of the Czech Philharmonic Orchestra is a bit too homogenized and at times too muddy in this remastering to make the music fully enjoyable. Although the instruments can be made out... some of their upper partials seem to have been eliminated in the reduction of tape hiss, and the ensemble's overall sound seems a little dulled in tone... Artistically, there is much to appreciate here, but this box set faces serious competition from later and better sounding alternatives. (AllMusic)

Quote from: SonicMan46 on March 02, 2022, 07:59:21 AM
Wand I've not yet had time to review or hear (believe a George recommendation).

Correct!

It was originally recommended to me by M Forever, so you know it's a winner!

Quote from: George on March 02, 2022, 08:22:50 AM
Correct!

It was originally recommended to me by M Forever, so you know it's a winner!

Thanks George - I'm assuming that the two boxes shown below are the same recordings, listed as 1980s recordings on the back of one of the packages - will check Spotify and setup a Wand playlist.

BTW - for those interested in the Kletzki 1960s recordings, I've listened to Nos. 2 & 3 so far, will continue - on headphones, the sound and dynamics are excellent for 50+ year old tapes - Dave :)

(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51Wue+Mpx5L.jpg)  (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/71B8phtDP0L._SL1500_.jpg)

Quote from: SonicMan46 on March 02, 2022, 07:59:21 AM
So, the two left are Steinberg & Kletzki, both w/ old sound from the 1960s but remastered - I've attached reviews of both conductors - in the first quote below, the ClassicsToday reviewer complains about the sound - just curious in your listening if you had the same impression?

I did not hear anything objectionable.  But these are from very old tapes, so you can't expect perfection.

QuoteAnd as to the Kletzki, the AllMusic reviewer concludes w/ a near dismissal in my mind! 

Then that reviewer can be dismissed.  Harumph!

As of March 2022, I would probably have to select the below sets.  I don't know if I could choose just one.  Maybe Karajan.  Or Schuricht.

Arturo Toscanini (NBC)
Carl Schuricht
Herbert von Karajan (70s)
Wyn Morris
Thomas Ades

I have just listened to Symphony No 5 from the Steinberg DG cycle and find nothing to complain of sound-wise. The cycle was recorded by Command Classics on 35mm tape using the same studio and equipment as Mercury 'Living Presence'. The studio and equipment were bought up when Everest went bust.

Quote from: Daverz on March 01, 2022, 11:25:04 AM
I suppose I'd pick Kletzki with the partial Markevitch cycle on Philips and DG as a supplement.  But I don't listen to Beethoven cycles whole, I just pick and choose among them what to listen to as the mood strikes.  It was the 7th from the DG Steinberg cycle a few days ago.

I'm a new comer to the Markevitch with them recently being reissued, I have really enjoyed hearing them. There is something really right about them.

Quote from: hvbias on March 04, 2022, 09:17:23 AM
I'm a new comer to the Markevitch with them recently being reissued, I have really enjoyed hearing them. There is something really right about them.

He had me thrilled throughout the 9th, a work that usually has me fidgeting at some point, either in the Adagio (for the less successful recordings) or in the Finale (even in very good recordings).

Quote from: amw on May 25, 2020, 02:00:05 AM
My preferences remain more or less the same: Krivine, Norrington, Leibowitz. I think of the more "traditional" cycles I rate Blomstedt/Leipzig the highest—a bit faster than his Dresden one and in much better sound.

Changes from previous list in red.

Adès A-
Bernstein NY C B-
Blomstedt Dresden C+
Blomstedt Leipzig A-
Brüggen Glossa C+
Brüggen Philips B-
Chailly A
Dohnányi A-
Fischer (Adam) B
Gardiner B+
Gielen (SWR) B+
Harnoncourt A-
Herreweghe A
Hogwood A- B+
Järvi B B+ (but the live versions on YouTube: A+)
Karajan 1963 C
Krivine A+
Leibowitz A+
Mackerras SCO A
Norrington LCP A-
Norrington Stuttgart A+

I guess at this point I only listen to new Beethoven cycles that I know I'll like....

I haven't listened to the Cluytens, Monteux or Kletzki cycles complete, only their Eroicas (none of which convinced me). For people who like those, I do still endorse Blomstedt Leipzig and Dohnányi as alternative but still comparable "big band" approaches that may be equally enjoyable. Brüggen (especially on Philips) is comparable in a different way: similar to traditional approaches in tempo and structure, for those who can't do without 18 minute Eroica openers, but with perhaps the most radically different and illuminating period instrument sound achieved by any HIP conductor.

I am of course a believer in the One True Beethoven Interpretation and have very specific preferences: Leibowitz in 3 (even more than Scherchen or Krivine), Gardiner, Harnoncourt or Grimal in 5, Chailly or Scherchen in 6, Norrington in 7, Herreweghe Champs-Elysées (not Royal Flemish) or Spering in 9, etc. But people will generally not agree with me.

Quote from: amw on March 04, 2022, 12:57:36 PM


I am of course a believer in the One True Beethoven Interpretation and have very specific preferences: Leibowitz in 3 (even more than Scherchen or Krivine), Gardiner, Harnoncourt or Grimal in 5, Chailly or Scherchen in 6, Norrington in 7, Herreweghe Champs-Elysées (not Royal Flemish) or Spering in 9, etc. But people will generally not agree with me.

When I first heard the Leibowitz Eroica it instantly reminded me of Toscanini's 1949 recording with the NBCSO which I've always rated very highly.

Quote from: Daverz on March 04, 2022, 12:17:25 PM
He had me thrilled throughout the 9th, a work that usually has me fidgeting at some point, either in the Adagio (for the less successful recordings) or in the Finale (even in very good recordings).

Yeah I can't quite place my finger on the why I am enjoying them so much, in general these brisk-ish tempi usually aren't for me, but Markevitch... there is just something very right about them, and they hold my attention very well and keep me smiling.

A side question: which conductor was the first to record all nine?  Was it Toscanini? Or did someone precede him in the enterprise?

Quote from: JBS on March 04, 2022, 05:21:32 PM
A side question: which conductor was the first to record all nine?  Was it Toscanini? Or did someone precede him in the enterprise?

Weingartner, I think.

EDIT: According to a Fanfare review reproduced at Pristine Classical, Weingartner's cycle was "first complete cycle of the Beethoven symphonies to be recorded electrically".   But I find it hard to imagine a complete acoustic Beethoven cycle.

Quote from: Daverz on March 04, 2022, 05:24:12 PM
Weingartner, I think.

Thanks. He recorded them 1932-38 (per the Naxos Historical CDs), so he beat Arturo out by a year.

I believe the Naxos Historical series for that 1939 broadcast cycle are now out of print, in which case anyone interested in it should look to Immortal Performances reissue as Richard Caniell that did both transfers said someone at Naxos added noise reduction to his transfers after he had submitted them. I bought the Immortal Performances box, and it is a big step up in sound quality if one doesn't mind more noise. I wish Munch recorded the full cycle for that Toscanini style except in superior sound and superior orchestral playing. Munch's 9th is one of my desert island CDs, not necessarily my favorite performance of the 9th, but it sounds like the halls of the BSO must have been burning down.

Quote from: hvbias on March 04, 2022, 06:12:45 PM
I believe the Naxos Historical series for that 1939 broadcast cycle are now out of print, in which case anyone interested in it should look to Immortal Performances reissue as Richard Caniell that did both transfers said someone at Naxos added noise reduction to his transfers after he had submitted them. I bought the Immortal Performances box, and it is a big step up in sound quality if one doesn't mind more noise. I wish Munch recorded the full cycle for that Toscanini style except in superior sound and superior orchestral playing. Munch's 9th is one of my desert island CDs, not necessarily my favorite performance of the 9th, but it sounds like the halls of the BSO must have been burning down.

If you're referring to Toscanini 1939, Amazon shows the Immortal Performances only as an LP set., no sign of a Naxos issue, and CD sets from Andromeda and Music & Arts (possibly two different issues because there are two listings with different covers).  I've got the 1950ish Toscanini set, so I don't feel any great motivation to get the 1939 set (more precisely, no great motivation to pay $60 or more for it).

Weingartner seems to available only as individual CDs or as a download.

Quote from: hvbias on March 04, 2022, 03:29:32 PM
Yeah I can't quite place my finger on the why I am enjoying them so much, in general these brisk-ish tempi usually aren't for me, but Markevitch... there is just something very right about them, and they hold my attention very well and keep me smiling.

Interesting, but I can only find 1, 3, 5, 6 8 and 9 - can't find 2, 4 and 7 anywhere. Did Markevitch actually do a complete cycle?

Quote from: JBS on March 04, 2022, 06:38:36 PM
If you're referring to Toscanini 1939, Amazon shows the Immortal Performances only as an LP set., no sign of a Naxos issue, and CD sets from Andromeda and Music & Arts (possibly two different issues because there are two listings with different covers).  I've got the 1950ish Toscanini set, so I don't feel any great motivation to get the 1939 set (more precisely, no great motivation to pay $60 or more for it).

Weingartner seems to available only as individual CDs or as a download.

Yes, the Toscanini 1939 cycle. They are two different companies, the current Immortal Performances: https://www.immortalperformances.org/

The 1939 is not a must have unless you're a Toscanini fan, for me not being one the 1939 is more for historical interest than one I reach for often. The differences aren't so different compared to the one in the RCA box, some tempo differences between the two, and some places in the '39 where there isn't as much of a death grip.

Quote from: Holden on March 05, 2022, 12:27:37 AM
Interesting, but I can only find 1, 3, 5, 6 8 and 9 - can't find 2, 4 and 7 anywhere. Did Markevitch actually do a complete cycle?

It's incomplete.

Anybody likes Gardiner and his Orchestre révolutionnaire et romantique ?

Quote from: André on March 05, 2022, 01:49:24 PM
Anybody likes Gardiner and his Orchestre révolutionnaire et romantique ?

I do.
For a person who wants only one PI set, it's the one I would suggest based on a combination of quality and low price.
[If price was not a limiting factor, I'd send them Immerseel or possibly the new Savall cycle.]

Quote from: TheGSMoeller on January 30, 2013, 07:30:30 PM
Norrington - LCP

Things change, gotta go with Harnoncourt & COE now. Savall and Les Concert is second now that they've completed their cycle.

Quote from: JBS on March 05, 2022, 07:13:33 PM
I do.
For a person who wants only one PI set, it's the one I would suggest based on a combination of quality and low price.
[If price was not a limiting factor, I'd send them Immerseel or possibly the new Savall cycle.]

Thanks, Jeffrey ! I've put a few of them on my Spotify playlist.  :)

Dausgaard is my current favorite.

For modern instruments - Mackerras/Royal Liverpool and then Bernstein/Vienna

For Period Instruments - Immerseel and then Bruggen

If I'm in a hurry - Zinman

Been giving the Savall set a good listen again over the last few days.

It's generally excellent, but a bit patchy. 3 has nowhere the same impact as his first stand-alone recording. 5 is really excellent, up there with Immerseel. I'm as much of a savall fanboy as anyone but if he has a downside it's making everything sound like Rameau, and he falls into this trap with my favourite of all symphonies, the Seventh. It's a real shame. However...for me we have a new reference Ninth - this one is sensational.

On a different note, sometimes things nag at you and it's a relief when you can just admit something to yourself after years of self-denial. I listened to Savall, Bruggen and Barenboim's versions of the 6th one after another and can finally get a weight off my chest by realising that I find the piece utterly dull. There...feel better.

Whilst on a Savall tip, my Spotify alerted me this morning to his new recording of Schubert 8 & 9. I listened to the Ninth, a symphony I've struggled to get overly enthused by, and was blown away. Really special.

Any love for Cluytens/Berlin?

Quote from: vers la flamme on October 10, 2022, 05:02:39 PM
Any love for Cluytens/Berlin?

Yep:

https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21417.msg832031.html#msg832031 (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21417.msg832031.html#msg832031)

and

https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21417.msg831988.html#msg831988 (https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/topic,21417.msg831988.html#msg831988)

Quote from: vers la flamme on October 10, 2022, 05:02:39 PM
Any love for Cluytens/Berlin?

Yes, my seminal set most of which still holds up well today. The Pastoral is the pick of them

Quote from: vers la flamme on October 10, 2022, 05:02:39 PM
Any love for Cluytens/Berlin?

It's outstanding.

It's been a while I heard it but I dissent wrt Cluytens/Berlin. It's good but I would not particularly recommend it or go out of my way to acquire it and I never quite understood why this was regarded more than decent solid recordings in decent early stereo. To me it sits in the not overly attractive middle between the flexible "subjectivist" school of Furtwängler, Mengelberg, Abendroth etc. and the fast and straightforward recordings of Karajan or Leibowitz a few years later.

When I was listening to Cluytens' and Monteux' cycles back to back to compare them, and Monteux was winning my affection every single time, Andre posted this helpful and descriptive comment on Cluytens:

Quote from: André on May 14, 2020, 01:32:39 PM
Cluytens is quite unlike Leibowitz or Karajan IMO. His Beethoven is more stately, more avuncular. He succeeds best in nos 1, 2, 4, 6 and 9. In the others it hangs fire. For his type of approach I prefer Maag, Morris, Schmidt-Isserstedt and Böhm. Even with comparably slow tempi they are more alert, with more tensile strength. Cluytens' relaxed way is suitable for listening on rainy days

This week I listened to Gardiner's 3/4/7 and the new Manacorda 2. Quite liked them all and was pleasantly surprised to reacquaint with Gardiner - although usually (but not always) fast in tempo, he is not otherwise eccentric or distinctive as a conductor, letting the sonorities of the orchestra make the best impression. The bassoon solo in the finale of 4 is notably well played and articulated - truly impressive - while at the other end of the scale, the French horns do not dominate the finale of 7 in the way that Sarge and I like.

Manacorda's 2 falls into the "period style, modern instruments, chamber orchestra" style created by Dausgaard and P. Jarvi, and is a fun example. The initial release is 1/2/7, with the Seventh on a CD by itself. Not sure why they didn't put a coupling.

I selected Chailly and Toscanini '39 back in 2013.  I will stick with those, and add Thomas Adès for small band Beethoven.

I'm listening through Gardiner/ORR this past week or so. Somehow I got it for like eight bucks a few months ago but have not spent all that much time with it yet. I'm reading along with the scores, too. It's been a great experience. I only think his horns seem too quiet, but maybe that's just me.

My favourite is the Karajan/BP '63 Cycle, beyond doubt. I find it such an outstanding set, very powerful and passionate, but at the same time beautiful and elegant; rhythms, changes of dynamics and orchestral colour are great as well sound intensity. The 9th Symphony recording was especially an overwhelming experience.

Quote from: vers la flamme on October 16, 2022, 01:14:00 PM
I only think his horns seem too quiet, but maybe that's just me.

Nah, not just you, I agreed just a few posts up, too.  :) Definitely are many virtues to make up for it.

Quote from: Brian on October 16, 2022, 02:11:44 PM
Nah, not just you, I agreed just a few posts up, too.  :) Definitely are many virtues to make up for it.

Good to know—and I agree! I've been massively enjoying it this past week; it's always great to rediscover Beethoven through great performances.

Quote from: Lisztianwagner on October 16, 2022, 01:53:24 PM
My favourite is the Karajan/BP '63 Cycle, beyond doubt. I find it such an outstanding set, very powerful and passionate, but at the same time beautiful and elegant; rhythms, changes of dynamics and orchestral colour are great as well sound intensity. The 9th Symphony recording was especially an overwhelming experience.

This could be my favorite cycle overall as well. From that set I find the 3rd and 7th particularly great.

I find the Karajan 1962-63 a bit "slick". Although this "Pastoral" was the recording I got to know the music with, I liked the joke that it was more like driving a Porsche through the landscape instead of going there on foot...
The outstanding one for me is the 9th, partly because of the very good solo singers; Kmentt must be one of the few not sounding strained in the awkward and difficult tenor solo, Janowitz is also ideal with her "instrumental" singing and they are also decently balanced in the ensemble sections. In the 1st and 3rd movement I also prefer tempi around Karajan's to the often a bit faster (like HIP, Toscanini etc.) or slower (like Furtwängler).